Listen to Audio Recording

[00:00:00.080 – 00:00:01.600] Tom, an alcoholic. [00:00:01.600 – 00:00:02.540] Hi, Tom. [00:00:02.540 – 00:00:07.040] And a member of the Primary Purpose group in Southern Pines, and delighted to be back. [00:00:07.040 – 00:00:11.060] The only problem about doing a series is that you gotta come close to telling the truth. [00:00:11.060 – 00:00:17.200] If you get to ad-libbing too much, man, you gotta live with it then, uh- So accountability, I think they call that. [00:00:17.200 – 00:00:22.720] Uh, really glad to see you again, and to see a lot of old friends. [00:00:22.720 – 00:00:26.240] Um, what, uh… [00:00:26.240 – 00:00:31.020] Tell you what, what, what, what my basic game plan is that, uh, Deb's already told you.

[00:00:31.020 – 00:00:33.920] But it's good that we have the same game plan, you know? [00:00:33.920 – 00:00:35.310] We all have a better chance- … [00:00:35.310 – 00:00:35.680] of getting there. [00:00:35.680 – 00:00:41.460] Go through the first session and just sort of get a feel for how stuff is. [00:00:41.460 – 00:00:47.860] I would really like to get into interaction, you know, because I, I just think it's so much more meaningful. [00:00:47.860 – 00:00:52.880] It's also more risky when, when you're trying to get through 12 traditions. [00:00:52.880 – 00:00:55.360] Good God, if you, we could spend a day on one.

[00:00:55.360 – 00:00:57.800] And, uh, so it's a little bit of risk in that. [00:00:57.800 – 00:01:02.000] So I'm just go sort of feel the way on the first session and just sort of see how we're doing. [00:01:02.000 – 00:01:05.400] And then, um, uh, would love to open it up, though. [00:01:05.400 – 00:01:12.020] And, and, uh, Kent's got a walking mic, and he's not gonna walk this session, but he- he'll be ready in the, in, by the next one. [00:01:12.020 – 00:01:14.820] And so we'll just sort of play that by ear and take off with it.

[00:01:14.820 – 00:01:21.820] Um, normally, when you announce traditions, it's almost like announcing a fire drill- … [00:01:21.820 – 00:01:23.100] 'cause folks go hide somewhere. [00:01:23.100 – 00:01:28.440] But that word hadn't gotten out here, I don't think. [00:01:28.440 – 00:01:32.860] Uh, uh, you know, traditions can be dry. [00:01:32.860 – 00:01:42.880] But, but they can also be, uh, be, uh, extremely interesting and useful for me if I take off on [00:01:42.880 – 00:01:44.180] a personal note. [00:01:44.180 – 00:01:54.500] Because what I find is that if I try to deal with them conceptually, you know, just sort of figure out what the principle is and how to apply it to stuff, that'll, that'll get a little exasperating

[00:01:54.500 – 00:01:55.080] and difficult. [00:01:55.080 – 00:02:05.100] But if I start out with first relating that principle to myself, then it's rather easy to extrapolate on that to, uh, to, to, to [00:02:05.100 – 00:02:07.180] larger, like the group or the fellowship or whatever. [00:02:07.180 – 00:02:11.240] Now, ready for the short guy. [00:02:11.240 – 00:02:13.940] Oh, well. [00:02:13.940 – 00:02:20.120] Not being a heavily mechanical fellow. [00:02:20.120 – 00:02:21.020] Yeah. [00:02:21.020 – 00:02:26.020] There's a little something that Bill wrote that I'd, I'd like to just hit this as an introduction. [00:02:26.020 – 00:02:36.030] "The 12 points of tradition are a little less than a, a little else than a specific application of the spirit of the 12

[00:02:36.030 – 00:02:40.920] steps of recovery to our group life and to our relations with society in general. [00:02:40.920 – 00:02:49.140] The, the, the, the steps would make each individual AA member whole and one with God. [00:02:49.140 – 00:02:59.220] The 12 points of tradition would make us one with each other and whole with the world around us." And, um, so I find [00:02:59.220 – 00:03:01.680] great utility in the traditions at a personal level. [00:03:01.680 – 00:03:05.960] Uh, just like the flyer says, I use them in every aspect of my life. [00:03:05.960 – 00:03:11.640] And, and I use them to the point that y- you know how the steps become a way of life?

[00:03:11.640 – 00:03:22.120] You know, I respond instinctually with tradition thinking in situations that I, that I deal with because I find absolutely [00:03:22.120 – 00:03:25.360] no place in my life that they don't fit extremely well. [00:03:25.360 – 00:03:29.780] You know how we strain so much to talk about relationships here? [00:03:29.780 – 00:03:31.380] Not that any of us have any problems. [00:03:31.380 – 00:03:34.460] That we, we're just concerned about our fellow man. [00:03:34.460 – 00:03:41.680] But, but just in case, it's a real hot button kind of a thing because it's a, it's a bit of a problem.

[00:03:41.680 – 00:03:45.000] And, uh, and that's what traditions are about. [00:03:45.000 – 00:03:46.580] They're about relationships. [00:03:46.580 – 00:03:47.320] That's all they are. [00:03:47.320 – 00:03:51.360] You know, it's about how to make organizations, people function together. [00:03:51.360 – 00:03:54.920] And, and so for that reason, I find them, uh, find great utility. [00:03:54.920 – 00:03:59.040] I've used them in my, uh, in, in, uh, well, I don't have a professional life now. [00:03:59.040 – 00:04:00.020] I'm unemployed. [00:04:00.020 – 00:04:02.660] And so no profession for that. [00:04:02.660 – 00:04:12.900] Uh, but when I was employed, I used them in every aspect of my work and, and have used traditions far more than anything I ever learned in university

[00:04:12.900 – 00:04:15.460] or even in training or management development. [00:04:15.460 – 00:04:21.079] Used them far more and, and found them to be extremely, extremely useful. [00:04:21.079 – 00:04:26.940] Uh, I'll just jump ahead, just give you one, uh, no details, but may get to it later. [00:04:26.940 – 00:04:36.860] Uh, I stopped a reorganization of a major organization one time with one word out of the traditions, and that's autonomy. [00:04:36.860 – 00:04:42.540] And, um, and so anyway, may, may fill it in later. [00:04:42.540 – 00:04:47.180] But that one word was that you don't have to change the world to make things work together.

[00:04:47.180 – 00:04:56.540] That autonomy where you can function independently and have cooperative relationships negates the need to do, uh, some kind of a mass changing of the world. [00:04:56.540 – 00:04:59.980] So I found great utility in these things in everything that I do. [00:04:59.980 – 00:05:06.800] Um, the, uh, get- getting my voluminous notes now. [00:05:06.800 – 00:05:07.720] These big… [00:05:07.720 – 00:05:09.600] Some of these were written… [00:05:09.600 – 00:05:13.120] I had the airplane trip from hell yesterday. [00:05:13.120 – 00:05:15.720] I, I, I won't go into all that because I'll start crying. [00:05:15.720 – 00:05:25.760] And, but, but I wrestled that sucker from two thirty yesterday morning till I landed in, uh, San Francisco an hour

[00:05:25.760 – 00:05:30.580] late, absolutely s- confident that I had, would, was unable to make a commitment. [00:05:30.580 – 00:05:32.160] We were gonna go over to Quentin last night. [00:05:32.160 – 00:05:34.140] And, uh, I'd already given up. [00:05:34.140 – 00:05:38.460] So I was up there close to God, and I said, "Hey, big guy, what's going on, man?" "We're in trouble. [00:05:38.460 – 00:05:44.500] I'm not gonna be there." And, uh, sure enough, I didn't understand what crafty Californians will do. [00:05:44.500 – 00:05:47.920] And sure enough, we wound up in the big gray rock last night.

[00:05:47.920 – 00:05:51.420] And I've never been more thankful to be locked up in my life. [00:05:51.420 – 00:05:57.720] I was about brain dead, but it was great to be there, I tell you. [00:05:57.720 – 00:05:59.580] And we had a wonderful time with that. [00:05:59.580 – 00:06:04.052] And so if, if you've got something with your traditions that is… [00:06:04.052 – 00:06:07.092] I brought A, A, uh, uh, Language of the Heart. [00:06:07.092 – 00:06:08.912] Now, you, you're really gonna do well with that. [00:06:08.912 – 00:06:11.532] I thought I was bringing A Comes of Age. [00:06:11.532 – 00:06:13.932] You can tell what kind of shape I was in.

[00:06:13.932 – 00:06:16.072] Now, that's a serious big book. [00:06:16.072 – 00:06:17.072] Thank you very much. [00:06:17.072 – 00:06:19.752] This has gotta be the truth, as big as this is. [00:06:19.752 – 00:06:27.972] Um, first one, I t- I could recite them, but I know I'd get them wrong. [00:06:27.972 – 00:06:31.142] First one is about our common welfare. [00:06:31.142 – 00:06:34.072] Our common welfare sh- should come first. [00:06:34.072 – 00:06:36.322] Personal recovery depends upon A.A. [00:06:36.322 – 00:06:37.532] unity. [00:06:37.532 – 00:06:47.612] And, um, I like to look at that in, you know, being a self-centered type of a guy, I like to look at it that, that my welfare comes

[00:06:47.612 – 00:06:48.092] first. [00:06:48.092 – 00:06:52.532] And that sounds pretty darn selfish, but it's realistic, too. [00:06:52.532 – 00:06:55.852] Uh, I had a good buddy that used to do a lot of… [00:06:55.852 – 00:06:57.432] He's probably been out here. [00:06:57.432 – 00:07:08.192] Did a lot of speaking around the country and, and when I, I first started to, to do some myself, this guy was a sort of a, a f- a fellow that symbolized [00:07:08.192 – 00:07:09.862] what I thought a real strong A.A. [00:07:09.862 – 00:07:10.792] member ought to be doing. [00:07:10.792 – 00:07:14.172] And he got drunk with twelve years.

[00:07:14.172 – 00:07:16.972] And I was right close behind him. [00:07:16.972 – 00:07:27.112] And s- so one day I caught him when he came back, and we were at a little, little retreat out in the woods, and I said, "Big guy, I wanna talk to you." And he said, "Sure." [00:07:27.112 – 00:07:30.882] And, uh, I said, "Let's go somewhere private." So I took him out in the woods- … [00:07:30.882 – 00:07:36.232] and, uh, sat him on a log and I said, "I, I saw what happened to you. [00:07:36.232 – 00:07:39.772] I want you to tell me the best you can what happened.

[00:07:39.772 – 00:07:41.692] I mean, I know you took a drink, but what happened? [00:07:41.692 – 00:07:51.612] What led to that sort of thing?" I don't know if he'd really thought it through much, but he gave it some thought and he said, uh, said, "I'll tell you what, what ha- what happened, Tom. [00:07:51.612 – 00:07:57.192] I really believe that I let the podium become my, my base. [00:07:57.192 – 00:08:07.192] I, I started thinking that that was A.A., that that's what the program was about, at the expense of commitment to home group and r- in the trenches kind of work." And he

[00:08:07.192 – 00:08:17.672] said, "I think, I, I think that's really what tripped." And, and there was one other thing that came to mind, and I mentioned to him that this guy used to say, rhetorically I know, [00:08:17.672 – 00:08:27.672] but he used to say very often, about every time he spoke, "If one of us has to drink again," like, if somebody in this group has to drink [00:08:27.672 – 00:08:36.632] again, "I hope it's me instead of you." Now, that's a nice brotherly love sentiment. [00:08:36.632 – 00:08:38.672] Dumb sentiment.

[00:08:38.672 – 00:08:39.232] I think… [00:08:39.232 – 00:08:43.432] Now, I hope none of us have to drink again. [00:08:43.432 – 00:08:44.092] We don't. [00:08:44.092 – 00:08:46.632] But there's a chance some of us will. [00:08:46.632 – 00:08:53.352] But if somebody drinks in this room again, I want to be the last cat standing. [00:08:53.352 – 00:08:54.872] I mean, I love you folks. [00:08:54.872 – 00:08:56.932] Bless you, Danny. [00:08:56.932 – 00:09:01.032] Now, it was not exactly a thunderous ovation. [00:09:01.032 – 00:09:05.551] It, it sounded like you were voting me down, you know? [00:09:05.551 – 00:09:07.852] But I ain't going. [00:09:07.852 – 00:09:09.892] You can not clap all you want to, but… [00:09:09.892 – 00:09:12.232] But now that's reality.

[00:09:12.232 – 00:09:13.812] You know, that's reality to me. [00:09:13.812 – 00:09:24.372] My sobriety is more important to me than anything in this world, and I'm not gonna cheapen it one ounce even by, by just sort of [00:09:24.372 – 00:09:25.692] sh- nice sounding statements. [00:09:25.692 – 00:09:26.322] I'm not gonna do it. [00:09:26.322 – 00:09:28.642] I'm gonna stay serious as a heart attack. [00:09:28.642 – 00:09:35.372] And, uh, and so that's sort of the grounding of this thing, that my, my, my welfare comes first. [00:09:35.372 – 00:09:44.852] But my recovery depends on the strength of the group upon which I rely.

[00:09:44.852 – 00:09:52.072] And so for that reason, I have to take good care of my group because that's what takes care of me. [00:09:52.072 – 00:10:02.072] And so while it's selfish, I have to get beyond just me and my, and my commitment, and I gotta get to the point of recognizing how much [00:10:02.072 – 00:10:05.972] I depend on my fellow alcoholics and about the group to which I belong. [00:10:05.972 – 00:10:11.732] And so that starts to put sort of reality to this thing to me, that, that my welfare comes first.

[00:10:11.732 – 00:10:17.352] And because of that, I'm somebody who is extremely committed to a home group. [00:10:17.352 – 00:10:19.932] I am a group person. [00:10:19.932 – 00:10:21.452] I'm not a meeting person. [00:10:21.452 – 00:10:24.592] I go to a lot of meetings, but I'm a group person. [00:10:24.592 – 00:10:26.392] I absolutely belong somewhere. [00:10:26.392 – 00:10:28.172] I know I belong there. [00:10:28.172 – 00:10:33.072] The other people in that group know I belong, and that is where I stake my claim. [00:10:33.072 – 00:10:33.992] That's where I live. [00:10:33.992 – 00:10:36.742] It's, that's the fundamental place from which my A.A. [00:10:36.742 – 00:10:37.452] stuff grows. [00:10:37.452 – 00:10:47.082] Realistically, I like to keep it in mind that I need that group more than that gr-

[00:10:47.285 – 00:10:47.805] Needs me. [00:10:47.805 – 00:10:50.745] Now, I'm the oldest rat in the barn. [00:10:50.745 – 00:10:55.265] You know, I'm, that's the old- about the only rat in the barn of my vintage. [00:10:55.265 – 00:10:58.825] I'm working on my 50th year. [00:10:58.825 – 00:11:02.085] I got, God, that's a long time, isn't it? [00:11:02.085 – 00:11:05.665] Now, most everybody's in favor of that now. [00:11:05.665 – 00:11:08.505] I got you, some of you are not awake yet. [00:11:08.505 – 00:11:10.605] But thank you for the support. [00:11:10.605 – 00:11:11.105] I could… [00:11:11.105 – 00:11:13.045] Never thought I'd make it. [00:11:13.045 – 00:11:13.345] I know… [00:11:13.345 – 00:11:17.365] When I was real young, obviously, since I'm only 61 now.

[00:11:17.365 – 00:11:20.605] Yes. [00:11:20.605 – 00:11:21.905] Or thereabout. [00:11:21.905 – 00:11:29.665] When I, when I was young and, and, and every- everybody had a propensity for patting me on the head, you know. [00:11:29.665 – 00:11:31.485] And I was a young squirt. [00:11:31.485 – 00:11:32.365] I always looked young. [00:11:32.365 – 00:11:42.525] And, uh, I had a guy one day was patting me and asked me how old I was, and I said, "Twenty-four." And he said, "My God, do you realize that [00:11:42.525 – 00:11:51.745] you could actually look forward to as much as 50 years in this thing?" Well, he, he, he said that like that was the most wonderful thought in the world.

[00:11:51.745 – 00:12:00.805] And when he said that, I'm thinking to myself, "My God, what if it works?" Man, I'm gonna stay here too long, and they got me. [00:12:00.805 – 00:12:01.965] I'll never get out of here. [00:12:01.965 – 00:12:03.485] And here I am. [00:12:03.485 – 00:12:07.705] The boy was right that maybe, I won't know till next February. [00:12:07.705 – 00:12:09.865] But the boy, boy was right so far. [00:12:09.865 – 00:12:11.345] That's something else. [00:12:11.345 – 00:12:14.625] That was not a thrilling kind of a prospect, you know. [00:12:14.625 – 00:12:22.185] And so, so my home group is a basic anchor, and so I have to take care of that.

[00:12:22.185 – 00:12:26.245] And, and being the oldest member there doesn't change anything. [00:12:26.245 – 00:12:32.304] Yeah, that, I need that group more than that group needs me, and I, and I, I need never forget that. [00:12:32.304 – 00:12:42.565] Uh, I make it a point in the spirit of that, that every time I welcome a newcomer to AA, I [00:12:42.565 – 00:12:52.745] always say, when they're telling me they appreciate what I'm doing or whatever, I always say, "You don't need to thank me because I need [00:12:52.745 – 00:12:59.445] you more than you need me." Now, I know that not a single one of them ever believes that.

[00:12:59.445 – 00:13:00.445] I know that. [00:13:00.445 – 00:13:04.445] My prayer is that I believe that. [00:13:04.445 – 00:13:12.505] Because if I get to the point where I think I'm just a real nice guy helping people, that's a dangerous place for me to be. [00:13:12.505 – 00:13:16.445] So I need to recognize very much that I need the newcomer. [00:13:16.445 – 00:13:17.725] He's not a nu- nuisance. [00:13:17.725 – 00:13:19.445] He's not somebody that's gonna eat up my time. [00:13:19.445 – 00:13:24.305] He is the lifeblood of the, of the fellowship and the group that I depend on. [00:13:24.305 – 00:13:30.665] And so I want to be sure that I mean that, not just the words, but I want to feel that spirit.

[00:13:30.665 – 00:13:36.845] Uh, guy spon- sponsor called me, I think yesterday, maybe it was what, anyway, recently. [00:13:36.845 – 00:13:40.265] And he said, "I just wanted to tell you," a 30-year guy. [00:13:40.265 – 00:13:50.825] And he said, "I just wanted to tell you, you're right." And I said, "Well, that's unusual." I said, "About what?" And he said, uh, he [00:13:50.825 – 00:14:01.125] said, "Well, you've always said that active hard work in service doesn't take energy away, it generates [00:14:01.125 – 00:14:11.145] energy." And he said, "I never believed that." And then he said the night before he got a c- call from a guy, a, a homeless guy just kind of drifting around,

[00:14:11.145 – 00:14:14.525] and, and he and a couple more guys pounced on that fella. [00:14:14.525 – 00:14:19.645] And they took him under the wing, and they got him settled in, got him taken care of. [00:14:19.645 – 00:14:26.705] And he said, "I have never felt better in my life." And see, it's the, it's exactly what I was talking about. [00:14:26.705 – 00:14:27.245] You know? [00:14:27.245 – 00:14:33.325] That my sobriety depends on what I do and not just how I feel and what I know. [00:14:33.325 – 00:14:37.465] It's about how active I am as a channel of what this thing's about.

[00:14:37.465 – 00:14:43.305] And so my, my, uh, my new- my needs are very, very great in that thing. [00:14:43.305 – 00:14:49.185] Um, let me tell you one thing. [00:14:49.185 – 00:14:50.485] I, I won't, I spend… [00:14:50.485 – 00:14:58.365] If anybody thinks I'm gonna do this in neat one 75-minute compartments, they'll probably be sorely disappointed. [00:14:58.365 – 00:15:03.245] I just sort of go, and when Deb, when Deb says, "Quit," I quit. [00:15:03.245 – 00:15:05.285] And then we start back, we start back. [00:15:05.285 – 00:15:12.045] Um, let me tell you one, one thing that sort of brings this home, this whole business of common welfare.

[00:15:12.045 – 00:15:22.125] And what's important to me in, in terms of doing that, and I think very important if you're, particularly if you're sort of seen [00:15:22.125 – 00:15:24.845] as a leader in, in a group. [00:15:24.845 – 00:15:26.525] I was– Now, I'm a loyal home group guy. [00:15:26.525 – 00:15:28.845] I think you've gotten that impression by now. [00:15:28.845 – 00:15:32.705] Uh, and, and, uh, one day… [00:15:32.705 – 00:15:33.785] We've got a pretty good group. [00:15:33.785 – 00:15:35.325] We've got a well-structured group. [00:15:35.325 – 00:15:37.904] It's got a variety of things so that we do more than… [00:15:37.904 – 00:15:39.605] We can walk and chew gum.

[00:15:39.605 – 00:15:41.305] We do a lot of things in our, in our group. [00:15:41.305 – 00:15:46.905] And, um, one time I was out of town. [00:15:46.905 – 00:15:52.645] And, uh, my terminology will be a little important in this. [00:15:52.645 – 00:15:55.925] I was out of town, and we had a business meeting. [00:15:55.925 – 00:16:01.385] Now, I wasn't there, but that didn't keep it from being we had a business meeting. [00:16:01.385 – 00:16:03.145] I just wasn't there to vote. [00:16:03.145 – 00:16:13.165] And, uh, now, being a kind person, I don't want to think that somebody raised this just because I was out of town, knowing that I would

[00:16:13.165 – 00:16:15.525] have absolutely had a fit if they did. [00:16:15.525 – 00:16:17.545] Now, I know they wouldn't do that. [00:16:17.545 – 00:16:27.585] But when I got back, there had been a major change in the group that I was absolutely convinced [00:16:27.585 – 00:16:34.725] pulled away from our, our, our real three legacy approach to good, solid recovery. [00:16:34.725 – 00:16:36.085] Now, I was hot. [00:16:36.085 – 00:16:37.485] I mean, I, I was hot. [00:16:37.485 – 00:16:45.525] In fact, I was too hot to do anything because if I'd have done anything, it would have been grossly inappropriate. [00:16:45.525 – 00:16:52.945] And it would have not been in the interest of the welfare of that group and therefore my canoe.

[00:16:52.945 – 00:16:57.549] So mad as I was, uh, I didn't say anything to anybody. [00:16:57.549 – 00:17:01.209] I had some wicked thoughts, but I didn't say anything. [00:17:01.209 – 00:17:04.149] Didn't tell my wife, 'cause I knew she'd tell everybody. [00:17:04.149 – 00:17:07.909] I just sorta carried my mad. [00:17:07.909 – 00:17:10.729] And then I started thinking it through. [00:17:10.729 – 00:17:21.129] Am I really concerned about a g- a legitimate issue, or am I just offended because of what would feel like an affront or, [00:17:21.129 – 00:17:23.109] or some kind of a disloyal move? [00:17:23.109 – 00:17:27.009] Is this a personal thing, or is there really a principle involved?

[00:17:27.009 – 00:17:28.429] And I wanted to, to look at that. [00:17:28.429 – 00:17:32.029] And I examined that very thoughtfully, wrote out… [00:17:32.029 – 00:17:34.169] You know, I didn't do deep-seeded inventory. [00:17:34.169 – 00:17:41.179] And I, I, I took that and evaluated my feelings and, and, and, and, and what I was, what I was, was thinking. [00:17:41.179 – 00:17:51.469] And so when I got through, I was absolutely satisfied with no question that my concern was legitimate, that it wasn't just [00:17:51.469 – 00:17:55.389] a matter of a personal kind of perceived insult or whatever. [00:17:55.389 – 00:17:59.429] We meet at a business meeting once a month.

[00:17:59.429 – 00:18:06.429] Had the business meeting, and, uh, I wasn't quite calm enough. [00:18:06.429 – 00:18:17.069] Even though I'd thought it through, I was still a little angry, and I was anxious to get something going, but not at the expense of the welfare [00:18:17.069 – 00:18:17.669] of the group. [00:18:17.669 – 00:18:23.249] So I said, "Well, darn." Never said a word. [00:18:23.249 – 00:18:29.089] Next business meeting, I'm talking two months down the road since the assassination. [00:18:29.089 – 00:18:35.969] And, uh, and I wasn't mad anymore. [00:18:35.969 – 00:18:37.089] You know, I was, I wasn't mad. [00:18:37.089 – 00:18:37.769] I was concerned.

[00:18:37.769 – 00:18:38.449] I wasn't mad. [00:18:38.449 – 00:18:45.059] So the business meeting came up, and it got a little break in the action, and, and, uh, new business. [00:18:45.059 – 00:18:55.069] I said, "Guys, I'm gonna a- I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring up something." Uh, I said, "We," a- and I mean that word we, "we did something [00:18:55.069 – 00:19:01.929] a couple of months ago where I think we broke, fixed, we fixed something that wasn't broken, and I believe we made a mistake. [00:19:01.929 – 00:19:08.229] And I'm gonna ask that we reinstate what we took out effective tonight.

[00:19:08.229 – 00:19:09.229] I'm not gonna make a motion. [00:19:09.229 – 00:19:12.969] That's a request." And so there's… [00:19:12.969 – 00:19:15.209] Funny thing to watch a group conscious in action, eh? [00:19:15.209 – 00:19:21.829] You can see that sort of, sort of shock, you know, and then you can see the thoughtful stuff. [00:19:21.829 – 00:19:26.829] One guy asked one question, and then there was a unanimous vote, and it was done. [00:19:26.829 – 00:19:36.909] But, see, that may sound like a strange way to approach g- the common welfare, my welfare, because if I'd have gone in there and just thrown

[00:19:36.909 – 00:19:42.129] my weight around and tried to intimidate people or stuff like that, would've done great damage. [00:19:42.129 – 00:19:48.529] Would have run the risk of jeopardizing an excellent group of AA. [00:19:48.529 – 00:19:56.009] So it worked out, but, but it, it took that kind of, of prayerful, thoughtful consideration. [00:19:56.009 – 00:20:03.869] And, uh, I tell you, I, I felt strongly enough, and nobody knew this, and don't, don't, don't send anything to North Carolina. [00:20:03.869 – 00:20:14.069] But I w- I felt strongly enough that I would not have stayed in the group if we had done that because it would've gone past a point that I thought was acceptable to do the kind of thing we think.

[00:20:14.069 – 00:20:18.309] So thank God it didn't have to do anything, and we resolved that thing. [00:20:18.309 – 00:20:20.949] But you call it what you will. [00:20:20.949 – 00:20:27.189] I– It's a concern for, for, for the welfare, and it's also a quality of leadership. [00:20:27.189 – 00:20:30.929] You, you aren't leading if nobody's following. [00:20:30.929 – 00:20:36.169] And, and so You may wanna write that down. [00:20:36.169 – 00:20:37.629] That's a real heavy thought. [00:20:37.629 – 00:20:39.049] You got… [00:20:39.049 – 00:20:40.849] Touch the… [00:20:40.849 – 00:20:42.729] But it's a fact, you know? [00:20:42.729 – 00:20:47.699] And just yelling at people and having a fit is not gonna make anybody follow, you know?

[00:20:47.699 – 00:20:52.809] But if you just sorta set an example, you know, then it can be leadership. [00:20:52.809 – 00:20:56.009] Most good, strong leadership is not loud, you know? [00:20:56.009 – 00:20:57.649] It's just quiet confidence, you know? [00:20:57.649 – 00:21:03.609] So it was a, it was a, it was a, um… [00:21:03.609 – 00:21:07.449] I wrote something I can't read. [00:21:07.449 – 00:21:09.759] Family, our welfare. [00:21:09.759 – 00:21:13.289] Oh, oh, oh. [00:21:13.289 – 00:21:20.689] You know, I was thinking about, you know, the same thing applies on, on, on this common welfare thing to like my family, you know? [00:21:20.689 – 00:21:23.429] And a m- just like anybody, my family's important to me.

[00:21:23.429 – 00:21:27.909] Uh, even though they don't see me very much, they, they're very important to me. [00:21:27.909 – 00:21:33.649] And so our family, in fact, we use traditions in our family quite often. [00:21:34.463 – 00:21:38.923] And we've used them to solve a lot of problems, including common welfare kinds of issues. [00:21:38.923 – 00:21:48.123] And, and so when we've got anything that's sort of pulling at the seams on, on our family, that's what we'll do is come together and sort of find where we are. [00:21:48.123 – 00:21:49.563] You know, we're four…

[00:21:49.563 – 00:21:51.103] Right now, we're four adults. [00:21:51.103 – 00:21:52.943] I used to have little children, but now I got adults. [00:21:52.943 – 00:21:56.663] But, but it's still very important that this family stay together. [00:21:56.663 – 00:22:05.583] And, and so when we look up- look at the welfare of each other, look at our roles in it, make sure that we're satisfied, comfortable with what we're doing, keep the communication open. [00:22:05.583 – 00:22:10.443] You know, very important that our common welfare as a family be impacted. [00:22:10.443 – 00:22:15.243] I can't do anything that doesn't have impact on the other members of the family.

[00:22:15.243 – 00:22:19.262] And so very important for me to use these kinds of principles in, in what I do. [00:22:19.262 – 00:22:27.483] In, uh, in, in professional life, I, I… [00:22:27.483 – 00:22:30.383] Let me just say it this way without a whole bunch of, um, of, of… [00:22:30.383 – 00:22:36.703] I could give you a hundred examples, but in, in solving problems… [00:22:36.703 – 00:22:39.983] Well, I'll give you this one real quick example. [00:22:39.983 – 00:22:50.003] I, the, the, um, I, I went, went into a, a, an organization I was managing, and walked in, and you know how some folks will test you sometimes just sort of see

[00:22:50.003 – 00:22:51.203] what you, what you're about? [00:22:51.203 – 00:22:52.463] So I walked in. [00:22:52.463 – 00:22:53.343] I knew it was a setup. [00:22:53.343 – 00:22:56.403] But it was all right because it sounded like a good exercise. [00:22:56.403 – 00:23:05.543] And so the, the director of it came over and, and he said, uh, said, said, "We got a real bad situation here." And I, I was interested in the way he phrased it. [00:23:05.543 – 00:23:10.363] He said, "We're interested in what you would have done." That meant they'd already decided. [00:23:10.363 – 00:23:18.063] And so, "We're interested in what you would have done." And so I said, "Well, tell me the situation." And so they told me.

[00:23:18.063 – 00:23:21.403] Now, I'm sure they thought I was a management genius. [00:23:21.403 – 00:23:27.513] My response came from just solid discussions in closed meetings, you know- … [00:23:27.513 – 00:23:28.223] is where it came from. [00:23:28.223 – 00:23:34.143] They laid out the situation, and it was ob- obvious, you know, that, that it was somebody was gonna lose, somebody was gonna win. [00:23:34.143 – 00:23:44.103] And so the simple question of what's in the best interest of the common welfare took all of those personal anguish issues out of the picture. [00:23:44.103 – 00:23:47.163] It's simply looking at what's best for most.

[00:23:47.163 – 00:23:53.783] Practical kind of a thing, free of personalities, free of politics, free of that kind of stuff. [00:23:53.783 – 00:23:59.363] And I said, "Okay, here's what I've, what, what, what I would have done." And I never asked what they did. [00:23:59.363 – 00:24:01.163] I, to this day, I don't know what they did. [00:24:01.163 – 00:24:03.543] Don't really care. [00:24:03.543 – 00:24:05.083] You know, it, it was fine. [00:24:05.083 – 00:24:07.003] They, they took care of the responsibility. [00:24:07.003 – 00:24:07.973] They solved the problem. [00:24:07.973 – 00:24:10.963] They didn't need to tell me about that stuff unless they just wanted to.

[00:24:10.963 – 00:24:15.843] And so the, the utility of something like that is the simplicity, you know. [00:24:15.843 – 00:24:25.963] That when I can think about common welfare instead of win, lose, who's right, who's wrong, and get caught up in all that junk and get right to the heart of the matter, and in the interest [00:24:25.963 – 00:24:28.203] of the common welfare, do what's right. [00:24:28.203 – 00:24:33.123] And these traditions guide me im- immeasurably in, in that kind of a thing. [00:24:33.123 – 00:24:36.683] Um, there's a place… [00:24:36.683 – 00:24:37.413] Oh, I got a book.

[00:24:37.413 – 00:24:39.083] I, I started borrowing another book. [00:24:39.083 – 00:24:41.343] God, that's big. [00:24:41.343 – 00:24:42.242] I'm glad of that. [00:24:42.242 – 00:24:44.963] There's a place that… [00:24:44.963 – 00:24:56.083] I'm not gonna read to you too much today, but there's a place that I think really describes the s- the, the u- the utility of this [00:24:56.083 – 00:24:58.463] common welfare thing as much as anything I know. [00:24:58.463 – 00:25:03.183] It's in There's a Solution, and I know you guys read that a lot out here. [00:25:03.183 – 00:25:06.123] That said, it's– And I'll just read through it real quick.

[00:25:06.123 – 00:25:07.643] There's a Solution, right from the start. [00:25:07.643 – 00:25:08.823] "We have a, a… [00:25:08.823 – 00:25:12.063] know thousands of men and women who once just as hopeless as Bill. [00:25:12.063 – 00:25:13.863] Nearly all have recovered. [00:25:13.863 – 00:25:15.063] They've solved the drink problem. [00:25:15.063 – 00:25:22.603] We're average Americans, all sections of this country, many of its occupations are represented, as well as many political, economic, social, and religious backgrounds. [00:25:22.603 – 00:25:29.983] We're people who normally would not mix, but there exists among us a fellowship of friendliness and understanding which is indescribably wonderful. [00:25:29.983 – 00:25:34.983] We're like…" Here's where we get to the thing that's– tell, tells us who we are.

[00:25:34.983 – 00:25:43.363] "We're like the passengers of a great liner the moment after rescue from shipwreck when camaraderie, joyousness, and democracy pervade the vessel from steerage to captain's table. [00:25:43.363 – 00:25:52.423] Unlike the feelings of the ship's passengers, however, our joy and escape from disaster does not subside as we go our individual ways. [00:25:52.423 – 00:25:59.603] The feeling of having shared in a common peril is one element in the powerful cement which binds us. [00:25:59.603 – 00:26:09.643] But that in itself would never have held us together as we're now joined." You know, one of, one of the magical things, and there's one little bit other, but I'll just comment

[00:26:09.643 – 00:26:09.933] right here. [00:26:09.933 – 00:26:18.463] One of the magical things in this program, powerful thing, is that we are folk who don't need to tell each other our stories. [00:26:18.463 – 00:26:21.983] We do, but we don't need to. [00:26:21.983 – 00:26:26.463] If I walk up to you, you tell me you're an alcoholic, I know your story. [00:26:26.463 – 00:26:28.943] I don't know the events or circumstances. [00:26:28.943 – 00:26:29.583] It don't matter. [00:26:29.583 – 00:26:32.063] I know about the death of a soul. [00:26:32.063 – 00:26:40.403] And so it's, it's– there's a certain value to that, you know, of just knowing, man, I've been there too.

[00:26:40.403 – 00:26:42.883] But that's not enough. [00:26:42.883 – 00:26:50.703] Uh, just bad memories won't, won't do it, uh, because we get tired of that, you know, and then we'd look for a bloodier story or something. [00:26:50.703 – 00:26:51.863] I don't know, but something. [00:26:51.863 – 00:26:53.923] But it only goes so far. [00:26:53.923 – 00:26:55.103] It brings us together. [00:26:55.103 – 00:26:59.223] It's established that trust and confidence, but that's time limited. [00:26:59.223 – 00:27:03.523] And then it goes on, and where I think tr- Second Tradition comes in so much. [00:27:03.523 – 00:27:10.843] "The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution." That's where we meet.

[00:27:10.843 – 00:27:19.923] "We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. [00:27:19.923 – 00:27:30.003] This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism." And, and that to me is what the tr- this, this, this, this tradition's about, this whole business [00:27:30.003 – 00:27:36.103] about our common welfare, is realizing that, that we're the folk who got in the lifeboat together. [00:27:36.103 – 00:27:41.499] And we have to take care of that boat, otherwise we're all out of luck.

[00:27:41.499 – 00:27:46.739] And, and so tremendously important to, to, to me, the– this whole business. [00:27:46.739 – 00:27:50.819] I, I, I believe that the first tradition is much like the first step. [00:27:50.819 – 00:27:56.579] It's the s– It's the real kick point– kickoff point for the whole program of recovery. [00:27:56.579 – 00:28:00.429] Without the first step, it's an exercise in philosophy. [00:28:00.429 – 00:28:07.319] With the first step, it's a critical action to solve a critical problem. [00:28:07.319 – 00:28:09.419] It's a whole different concept. [00:28:09.419 – 00:28:10.479] So I think vitally important. [00:28:10.479 – 00:28:17.359] And then in, in dealing with the points of tradition, very important that we recognize what it's about.

[00:28:17.359 – 00:28:22.419] It's not just good business practices or how to be a good neighbor or a good husband or wife. [00:28:22.419 – 00:28:29.919] It's about recognizing that this whole program depends on this commitment to knowing that we're in this thing together. [00:28:29.919 – 00:28:35.039] And no matter whether it's in AA or in a, in our family or our organizations or wherever. [00:28:35.039 – 00:28:43.499] Um, the second one is in the, the group purpose. [00:28:43.499 – 00:28:47.819] My group… [00:28:47.819 – 00:28:51.159] I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get away from here just a little bit.

[00:28:51.159 – 00:28:59.259] My group, as you kinda got– might have gathered from, uh, a little bit earlier, I'm gonna get way all together. [00:28:59.259 – 00:29:09.379] My group, AA as a whole, this workshop, Northern California H&I, [00:29:09.379 – 00:29:16.059] General Service Conference, I don't care what it is, is about our primary purpose. [00:29:16.059 – 00:29:18.779] That– What does that say? [00:29:18.779 – 00:29:20.219] Each group– Uh, no. [00:29:20.219 – 00:29:28.739] Uh, for our group purpose, there's but one ultimate authority, a loving God, as He may express Himself in our group conscious. [00:29:28.739 – 00:29:31.459] Our leaders are but trusted servants.

[00:29:31.459 – 00:29:32.559] They don't govern. [00:29:32.559 – 00:29:42.839] And it, it's important for me to, to, to remember that in our essential work, no matter what we're doing, that [00:29:42.839 – 00:29:44.719] purpose is why we meet. [00:29:44.719 – 00:29:48.779] We don't meet here today to become expert at tradition. [00:29:48.779 – 00:29:50.139] You won't do that with me anyway. [00:29:50.139 – 00:29:52.219] But we're not here for that. [00:29:52.219 – 00:29:58.099] What we're here for is to more effectively be able to reach the alcoholic who still suffers. [00:29:58.099 – 00:30:08.799] If that purpose doesn't undergird everything we do, I think we're doing the wrong business because it doesn't matter what it is, whether it's a service assembly, a general service conference,

[00:30:08.799 – 00:30:10.378] a PI effort. [00:30:10.378 – 00:30:20.519] Everything that we do, I think, absolutely flows out of that, that we only have one primary purpose, and that's to have our work reach the alcoholic who still suffers. [00:30:20.519 – 00:30:29.299] Interesting thing of– And I've seen a lot of battles in AA. [00:30:29.299 – 00:30:32.319] Never won over primary purpose. [00:30:32.319 – 00:30:34.199] That's the meeting ground. [00:30:34.199 – 00:30:36.739] You know, we don't fight over that primary purpose. [00:30:36.739 – 00:30:41.839] We may fight over who's got the commitment or who's supposed to make the coffee or, you know, whatever.

[00:30:41.839 – 00:30:43.199] You know, we fight over stuff. [00:30:43.199 – 00:30:48.739] But when it comes down to the primary purpose of one alcoholic reaching another, I've never seen a fight over that. [00:30:48.739 – 00:30:56.218] I've seen fights for it and some to avoid it, you know, but nonetheless, we just don't fight there. [00:30:56.218 – 00:31:04.639] Um, I, I tell you just some concerns I have. [00:31:04.639 – 00:31:08.779] And if, if you don't share them, I'll try to, I'll try to sell them to you. [00:31:08.779 – 00:31:10.479] It may not succeed. [00:31:10.479 – 00:31:18.679] Things I worry about a little bit, and I think a little, little worry helps traditions have meaning.

[00:31:18.679 – 00:31:21.919] Things I worry about. [00:31:21.919 – 00:31:23.189] I worry about leadership. [00:31:23.189 – 00:31:26.939] And leadership is not a dirty word. [00:31:26.939 – 00:31:29.399] Sometimes we treat it like it is. [00:31:29.399 – 00:31:30.649] It's a vital thing. [00:31:30.649 – 00:31:36.059] This workshop didn't happen without leadership. [00:31:36.059 – 00:31:37.719] It's absolutely required. [00:31:37.719 – 00:31:47.039] In a group, you know, if it's a group that has purpose and real content, real, real design to it, it requires leadership. [00:31:47.039 – 00:31:50.679] I mean, you just get together and shoot the bull, that doesn't require a lot of leadership. [00:31:50.679 – 00:31:56.009] But if you're really gonna have a group that's trying to work toward the primary purpose, there's got to be some leadership involved in it.

[00:31:56.009 – 00:32:06.039] It's required in our, in our area structure, you know, where, where we got people who, who take the time to be of service in trying to strengthen our fellowship [00:32:06.039 – 00:32:11.619] as a whole and to, to make sure that our grassroots voice is heard throughout the fellowship. [00:32:11.619 – 00:32:13.459] You know, the– those are important things. [00:32:13.459 – 00:32:16.879] I worry about that some. [00:32:16.879 – 00:32:21.519] Not so much about the, the quality, but about [00:32:22.000 – 00:32:23.260] The representation of groups. [00:32:23.260 – 00:32:31.460] You know, there, there's a, there's a thing that we call the inverted triangle that, uh…

[00:32:31.460 – 00:32:41.520] And the, the whole idea is a real simple idea that, I'm a lousy artist, but the whole idea of the inverted [00:32:41.520 – 00:32:50.230] triangle is that, um, that, you know, that, that this is a grassroots thing here. [00:32:50.230 – 00:32:52.140] That's us, the grassroots. [00:32:52.140 – 00:33:03.720] And, and the idea is that this is really an upside-down triangle, that [00:33:03.720 – 00:33:08.820] the, the grassroots drives decision-making in Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:33:08.820 – 00:33:20.540] Now, that's a great theory, but I'll tell you what makes that almost a myth, is [00:33:20.540 – 00:33:31.020] the fact that when you look at what happens in taking decision-making from the grassroots

[00:33:31.020 – 00:33:37.300] and making it have impact on what we do as a fellowship, you see an interesting little set of math. [00:33:37.300 – 00:33:40.920] Around the country, now this is not scientific. [00:33:40.920 – 00:33:43.880] You know we don't do research, but I guarantee you it's pretty accurate. [00:33:43.880 – 00:33:53.880] Somewhere, when we meet to formulate decisions that affect our fellowship, we will tend to [00:33:53.880 – 00:33:59.860] have 20% to 25% of registered groups represented. [00:33:59.860 – 00:34:05.080] Well, I would submit to you that that's not a group conscience. [00:34:05.080 – 00:34:15.120] That's a minority opinion, and really calls to question this whole business about grassroots integrity that

[00:34:15.120 – 00:34:20.660] the, that the, that the, the member at the local level is the driving force. [00:34:20.660 – 00:34:30.660] You know, if I don't have a group that has a representative, a general service representative, to go into the process and [00:34:30.660 – 00:34:39.000] report what we feel in our group, then we might as well not feel it, because it'll have absolutely no value whatsoever. [00:34:39.000 – 00:34:39.880] It'll never surface. [00:34:39.880 – 00:34:50.540] And so when you look around the country, that's one thing that conc- concerns me a great deal, is, um, this whole business of us being a grassroots-driven

[00:34:50.540 – 00:34:53.220] fellowship is highly questionable. [00:34:53.220 – 00:35:02.740] And so what we wind up with is, is, uh, some very dedicated people who take the responsibility. [00:35:02.740 – 00:35:08.840] Sometime we try to demonize those folks by looking at them as politicians, and they're power hungry, and all that stuff. [00:35:08.840 – 00:35:11.240] I don't bother to look at it that way. [00:35:11.240 – 00:35:15.300] I look at it as folks who are willing to suck it up and do our work. [00:35:15.300 – 00:35:23.300] And, uh, so it's a, it's a troubling thing when you look at having a well-represented group conscience.

[00:35:23.300 – 00:35:33.520] And so when we start looking at, for our group purpose, th-th-that, and that leaders– leadership's not a dirty word. [00:35:33.520 – 00:35:37.520] It's awfully important to take a look at what that means in real life. [00:35:37.520 – 00:35:47.600] And when you look around the country, what you find is that we have an unbelievable number of just real casual gatherings [00:35:47.600 – 00:35:49.880] that are not really groups at all. [00:35:49.880 – 00:35:52.920] They're just sort of meetings that meet spontaneously. [00:35:52.920 – 00:35:55.100] Nothing precedes them nor follows them. [00:35:55.100 – 00:35:56.680] It's just a group of people who get together.

[00:35:56.680 – 00:36:06.960] And while it might be nice to do, when you think in terms of the common welfare of our fellowship, of how, where we are, how we develop leadership, [00:36:06.960 – 00:36:09.060] my God, man, just look what we leave out. [00:36:09.060 – 00:36:11.160] Look what we fail to capture. [00:36:11.160 – 00:36:17.140] Now, I was at a, at a place a while back, and I was doing a presentation. [00:36:17.140 – 00:36:18.230] Uh, no, I was doing a talk. [00:36:18.230 – 00:36:20.200] I was, I was just making a reg- regular AA talk. [00:36:20.200 – 00:36:28.240] But I, I got going on CPC work, Cooperation with Professional Community, and I was going at it pretty hard.

[00:36:28.240 – 00:36:34.670] And, uh, there were about 250 people in the room, and I, I just asked, I sort of expected the answer. [00:36:34.670 – 00:36:42.180] I said, "Let me just ask out of curiosity, how many people in here are actively involved in CPC work today?" One. [00:36:42.180 – 00:36:43.400] One. [00:36:43.400 – 00:36:53.680] And after the meeting, a guy came up to me and he said, "You know, I was real interested in what you were asking about up there." He said, "But let me tell you, I wouldn't have done it publicly,

[00:36:53.680 – 00:36:54.740] but let me tell you this. [00:36:54.740 – 00:37:06.240] I've been in AA 22 years, and I have never done one single thing that could be described as service." He said, "I don't know what to do." And [00:37:06.240 – 00:37:09.200] I said, "Tell me what you did before you got here. [00:37:09.200 – 00:37:14.160] What was your profession?" And he said, "Well, I almost used it. [00:37:14.160 – 00:37:22.380] I was a CPA, certified public accountant." I said, "My God, man, they got idiots like me handling the money. [00:37:22.380 – 00:37:23.820] Good God.

[00:37:23.820 – 00:37:33.420] Well, we, uh, we got a place for you." Yeah, but, you know, sometimes you get hooked on this notion that there's some kind of a job description for, for service. [00:37:33.420 – 00:37:36.030] All it is, is what the sk– Everybody brings skills. [00:37:36.030 – 00:37:43.000] There isn't a person in this room that doesn't have skills and capabilities that would be valuable in some service mode. [00:37:43.000 – 00:37:44.700] They're not all the same. [00:37:44.700 – 00:37:46.540] My God, there's just tons of them. [00:37:46.540 – 00:37:49.280] But so many times we just miss that.

[00:37:49.280 – 00:37:51.080] Debbie and I are wearing buttons. [00:37:51.080 – 00:37:53.300] She bought hers. [00:37:53.300 – 00:37:57.300] I conned mine. [00:37:57.300 – 00:38:06.840] I was at an airport yesterday, um, among many airports yesterday, and there was a girl working behind the counter serving something that I wanted to eat. [00:38:06.840 – 00:38:09.080] And she had this button. [00:38:09.080 – 00:38:19.100] I said, "I love that button." And she said, "Oh, yeah, okay." I said, "No, no, I really love that button." And she, she, she said, "Really?" I said, "Well, I'll give it to [00:38:19.100 – 00:38:20.900] you." And so I conned mine.

[00:38:20.900 – 00:38:23.560] Soar into service. [00:38:23.560 – 00:38:23.800] Yeah. [00:38:23.800 – 00:38:27.180] That hers says service is the secret. [00:38:27.180 – 00:38:30.820] And, and I'll, I'll just give you a little preview there and just say it right now. [00:38:30.820 – 00:38:41.580] I honestly believe if you're somebody who wants solid recovery, where it's well-rounded, solid recovery, if you want the real joy [00:38:41.580 – 00:38:50.100] that will light your engines, if you wanna be invigorated and enthused in your recovery, service is the secret. [00:38:50.100 – 00:38:51.480] If you th… [00:38:51.480 – 00:39:01.320] if you th– and my, my notion, if you think it's caught up in learning more and bigger words and better definitions and all of this, I think it's an exercise in futility.

[00:39:01.320 – 00:39:11.360] We have to learn something that we keep this thing and, and we, we reach that marvelous plateau when we forget about ourselves and get caught up in reaching [00:39:11.360 – 00:39:12.000] out to others. [00:39:12.000 – 00:39:14.140] And I don't know of anything else that does that. [00:39:14.140 – 00:39:24.160] So, so that, uh, that– f-f-for our purpose, for the purpose of carrying this message to the [00:39:24.160 – 00:39:27.760] alcoholic who still suffers, there's one ultimate authority. [00:39:27.760 – 00:39:36.160] Just like I told that CPA guy, that there– When it comes to reaching out to an alcoholic, God's the only authority.

[00:39:36.160 – 00:39:37.480] There's no right way. [00:39:37.480 – 00:39:43.020] We don't have a te– Well, our book's almost a textbook on it, but we don't have a textbook on how to do that. [00:39:43.020 – 00:39:48.220] Your way may be exactly the right way, and nobody can scold you or criticize you. [00:39:48.220 – 00:39:51.540] You know, that if you do it to the best of your ability, that's it, and that's all it is. [00:39:51.540 – 00:39:53.120] And there's no patent on that. [00:39:53.120 – 00:39:54.600] Every one of us can do it. [00:39:54.600 – 00:39:57.080] The, uh… [00:39:57.080 – 00:40:07.100] Let, let me push that

[00:40:07.100 – 00:40:09.660] just a little bit further in a little different, different line. [00:40:09.660 – 00:40:18.900] And it says, uh, uh, loving guys, he may express himself in our group conscience. [00:40:18.900 – 00:40:20.420] Yeah. [00:40:20.420 – 00:40:24.560] Group conscience, to me, is a very meaningful term. [00:40:24.560 – 00:40:33.840] Sometimes we trivialize it, and, and, and we refer to a business meeting as a group conscience. [00:40:33.840 – 00:40:34.140] Yeah. [00:40:34.140 – 00:40:37.720] I personally don't think a business meeting is, is, is a group conscience. [00:40:37.720 – 00:40:39.100] That's take care of business. [00:40:39.100 – 00:40:41.800] I mean, that's ongoing operations of a group.

[00:40:41.800 – 00:40:51.800] Sometimes an issue will surface that will require a group conscience to come out of a business meeting, but you don't normally do it with some quick head count [00:40:51.800 – 00:40:52.180] vote. [00:40:52.180 – 00:40:52.580] Yeah. [00:40:52.580 – 00:41:02.580] A group conscience, for my money, calls for prayerful consideration, where we really examine whether this does, [00:41:02.580 – 00:41:04.960] in fact, enhance our primary purpose. [00:41:04.960 – 00:41:08.580] And it would– and, and that's the way it needs to be done. [00:41:08.580 – 00:41:15.120] Uh, I did a one-man conscience in that thing I was talking about in, in, in, in, in that deal with the group.

[00:41:15.120 – 00:41:16.860] But I sought my conscience. [00:41:16.860 – 00:41:21.200] But if we'd stuck, we might have done a group conscience on, on that thing. [00:41:21.200 – 00:41:26.680] So group conscience is more to me than a, than a business meeting. [00:41:26.680 – 00:41:33.480] It's a place where we see the– seek the conscience of our group in terms of the kind of work we're doing. [00:41:33.480 – 00:41:42.280] I, I'll tell you one other story, that sometimes it's not all just, just happy days, picnic time. [00:41:42.280 – 00:41:44.520] So-sometimes it is tough. [00:41:44.520 – 00:41:51.660] Sometimes if you're gonna be a responsible member of AA and you're gonna try to practice traditions, payday comes.

[00:41:51.660 – 00:41:54.680] I mean, a time comes when, uh, you gotta put up or shut up. [00:41:54.680 – 00:41:56.980] If you care. [00:41:56.980 – 00:41:58.840] I mean, if you don't care, go have a coffee. [00:41:58.840 – 00:42:08.890] But I was in a, I, I was, I was doing, uh, AA in my first few years [00:42:08.890 – 00:42:12.240] in rather severe conditions. [00:42:12.240 – 00:42:13.260] I was in jail. [00:42:13.260 – 00:42:23.500] And, uh, when I got out, uh, the– my, my first contact in the, on the street was a guy, wonderful old fella. [00:42:23.500 – 00:42:27.320] Uh, I went into a city where AA was just flat on the rocks.

[00:42:27.320 – 00:42:30.500] And, uh, first meeting I ever went to was the worst one I'd ever been. [00:42:30.500 – 00:42:33.080] I mean, if we'd had one that bad in jail, somebody'd got hurt. [00:42:33.080 – 00:42:36.000] And, but this was a bad deal. [00:42:36.000 – 00:42:42.620] And this old guy that I called first thing when I got home, um, he and I became fast friends. [00:42:42.620 – 00:42:44.560] And, and, uh, I couldn't drive. [00:42:44.560 – 00:42:47.880] I mean, I knew how to drive, but I didn't have any license to do it. [00:42:47.880 – 00:42:52.120] And, uh, this guy became my, my means for a lot of meetings.

[00:42:52.120 – 00:42:54.600] Uh, we had a r- just a sacred kind of routine. [00:42:54.600 – 00:42:56.480] I'd call him. [00:42:56.480 – 00:43:02.360] I, I never did just say, we never did agree, "I'll just pick you up every whatever day we meet." And I'd always call him. [00:43:02.360 – 00:43:06.880] It was a ritual, but it was a very important ritual to, to not take it for granted. [00:43:06.880 – 00:43:08.360] And we had fun. [00:43:08.360 – 00:43:08.730] Yeah, I'd call- [00:43:08.838 – 00:43:11.438] All up, and he had say County Poor House. [00:43:11.438 – 00:43:13.178] And he wasn't poor. [00:43:13.178 – 00:43:15.398] He was a plumber, you know, so he, you know he wasn't poor.

[00:43:15.398 – 00:43:16.458] That guy was… [00:43:16.458 – 00:43:17.198] Lot of money. [00:43:17.198 – 00:43:19.598] And a good guy. [00:43:19.598 – 00:43:20.438] Good guy. [00:43:20.438 – 00:43:22.398] He's a little over the hill, but he's a good guy. [00:43:22.398 – 00:43:27.338] He'd been the treasurer of that sort of spasmodic group. [00:43:27.338 – 00:43:29.138] I mean, good God, it was just lousy. [00:43:29.138 – 00:43:31.998] And, uh, he'd been treasurer for seven years. [00:43:31.998 – 00:43:42.058] And so when I got into town, we started, started messing with stuff and, and, uh, started trying to build a group and, and started getting into some, a little bit of growth.

[00:43:42.058 – 00:43:45.858] And when, you know, in a good group, you're gonna have rotation, you know. [00:43:45.858 – 00:43:47.638] And, and so that's just a natural part. [00:43:47.638 – 00:43:51.418] You're gonna have elections, and you have rotations, so nobody just gets to owning the job. [00:43:51.418 – 00:43:56.058] Well, that time came in the group. [00:43:56.058 – 00:43:57.058] And Mr. [00:43:57.058 – 00:43:58.558] Mack was a good treasurer. [00:43:58.558 – 00:44:03.958] But just like most people that have a job too long, he started to be a little possessive. [00:44:03.958 – 00:44:12.058] And I guarantee you, the b-biggest violation he would've, he would've had would've been put more money in than he was supposed to, not take anything out.

[00:44:12.058 – 00:44:14.898] He literally kept it in a coffee can. [00:44:14.898 – 00:44:21.578] And he started a little thing that somebody would buy refreshments or cookies or something and would go to him and say, "Mr. [00:44:21.578 – 00:44:24.317] Mack, the cookies were two dollars," you know. [00:44:24.317 – 00:44:25.098] And, and, and Mr. [00:44:25.098 – 00:44:31.858] Mack would say, "My, my, those cookies are getting expensive." Well, well, alcoholics are sensitive. [00:44:31.858 – 00:44:33.218] Al-Anons are worse. [00:44:33.218 – 00:44:38.798] I, I mean, they really- And they, they really would, would get a little touchy about that. [00:44:38.798 – 00:44:44.018] And, uh, I mean, it was obvious we needed to rotate.

[00:44:44.018 – 00:44:45.818] So came time for election. [00:44:45.818 – 00:44:47.818] It was an electric moment, uh, 'cause… [00:44:47.818 – 00:44:49.418] I d- It was a snap. [00:44:49.418 – 00:44:50.518] The chair was nothing. [00:44:50.518 – 00:44:52.598] Man, we had that sucker knocked out in thirty seconds. [00:44:52.598 – 00:44:55.518] Secretary, uh, all that stuff, it, it was done. [00:44:55.518 – 00:44:57.398] GSR was a cho- piece of cake. [00:44:57.398 – 00:44:59.498] Came time for treasurer. [00:44:59.498 – 00:45:03.397] Now, that old man loved me like a son. [00:45:03.397 – 00:45:06.478] Excuse me. [00:45:06.478 – 00:45:07.898] And I loved him like a father. [00:45:07.898 – 00:45:17.458] And anybody in that room could have done so easier than me, with less harm than me.

[00:45:17.458 – 00:45:20.918] And I thought anybody with any sense would know that. [00:45:20.918 – 00:45:24.558] And, uh, but don't count on that either. [00:45:24.558 – 00:45:34.138] And so when the nomination was called for treasurer, that was the quietest AA meeting I have ever seen in my life. [00:45:34.138 – 00:45:36.418] Man, you could've heard a cat breathing. [00:45:36.418 – 00:45:37.748] I, I mean, it was- … [00:45:37.748 – 00:45:39.138] quiet as a tomb. [00:45:39.138 – 00:45:46.578] And I'm sitting there saying, "For God's sake, somebody make a move." We should've had it planned in advance, but we didn't. [00:45:46.578 – 00:45:51.058] And so I'm sitting there, well, it's put up or shut up time.

[00:45:51.058 – 00:45:54.418] You mean all this stuff you talk about, or you just talking? [00:45:54.418 – 00:46:00.058] Now, I didn't wanna do that, but I made the nomination for somebody else. [00:46:00.058 – 00:46:01.918] Hurt the old boy. [00:46:01.918 – 00:46:04.298] We, we made a change, yeah. [00:46:04.298 – 00:46:05.758] Hurt the old boy. [00:46:05.758 – 00:46:06.738] He, he never… [00:46:06.738 – 00:46:10.628] You know, I'd like to say he snapped back, recovered from it. [00:46:10.628 – 00:46:11.118] He never did. [00:46:11.118 – 00:46:16.038] It, it just sort of took sort of his identity away, took his spirit. [00:46:16.038 – 00:46:17.978] And I felt bad. [00:46:17.978 – 00:46:19.298] Excuse me. [00:46:19.298 – 00:46:22.698] Really felt bad about that, but it was an important thing.

[00:46:22.698 – 00:46:27.038] He st- He kept paying the books, stayed my friend till the day he died. [00:46:27.038 – 00:46:29.438] But he was never the same man. [00:46:29.438 – 00:46:35.078] But what happened when I left that town two years later, we had sixty members in that group. [00:46:35.078 – 00:46:37.578] And it wasn't all just him, you know. [00:46:37.578 – 00:46:39.518] But that was sort of a hang point. [00:46:39.518 – 00:46:48.178] You know, where you're gonna have a, a real vital group that's got the normal ingredients of a good group, you, you can't compromise, but just so far.

[00:46:48.178 – 00:46:53.038] And, and so we have to recognize that leaders are trusted servants. [00:46:53.038 – 00:46:54.338] They don't own anything. [00:46:54.338 – 00:46:56.218] They don't boss anything. [00:46:56.218 – 00:46:57.748] They serve, and then they move on. [00:46:57.748 – 00:47:00.438] And rotate to me doesn't mean quit. [00:47:00.438 – 00:47:03.018] It means move to the next thing, you know. [00:47:03.018 – 00:47:03.478] Uh, but Mr. [00:47:03.478 – 00:47:04.678] Mack couldn't do that. [00:47:04.678 – 00:47:07.998] And so anyway, that's a, a very important kind of a… [00:47:07.998 – 00:47:09.798] See what I mean? [00:47:09.798 – 00:47:13.978] I'm really lucky to get through two, I guess, in the first session. [00:47:13.978 – 00:47:21.298] Um, so anyway, I tell you what, we'll, uh…

[00:47:21.298 – 00:47:27.938] Let me just ask you right quick, Kent, uh, violate you just a little bit. [00:47:27.938 – 00:47:32.018] If anybody wants to pop anything real quick on either of these two, you got your mic handy? [00:47:32.018 – 00:47:32.678] Mm-hmm. [00:47:32.678 – 00:47:33.018] All right. [00:47:33.018 – 00:47:36.497] On any of these two, comments or questions, it'll be very welcome. [00:47:36.497 – 00:47:37.738] Yeah, I'd like to make a comment. [00:47:37.738 – 00:47:38.178] Wait a minute. [00:47:38.178 – 00:47:41.138] You gotta bring the mic 'cause we gotta record you. [00:47:41.138 – 00:47:42.538] May have to go to court. [00:47:42.538 – 00:47:47.298] Yeah, Kent's slow, but he's trustworthy.

[00:47:47.298 – 00:47:48.328] Yes, he's trustworthy. [00:47:48.328 – 00:47:51.138] Yes, he– Yeah. [00:47:51.138 – 00:47:54.278] You working? [00:47:54.278 – 00:47:54.578] Yeah. [00:47:54.578 – 00:47:55.488] Yeah. [00:47:55.488 – 00:47:55.488] Yeah. [00:47:55.488 – 00:47:55.878] Hi, Tom. [00:47:55.878 – 00:47:56.378] I'm Vic Z. [00:47:56.378 – 00:47:59.138] I'm a step pick and I'm walking around this- Yeah. [00:47:59.138 – 00:47:59.538] Hey, Vic. [00:47:59.538 – 00:48:08.858] Um, you were talking about this, the fact that, you know, our, our what appears to be a democratic process of group conscience, basically. [00:48:08.858 – 00:48:17.878] What I found in general service is the practicality of, um, appealing to the masses is just seems impossible. [00:48:17.878 – 00:48:26.918] You go up to an area meeting, and you got all of these people sharing, and there are always not enough time, and there's so many people, and you start to hear the same thing over again.

[00:48:26.918 – 00:48:29.838] If you hear something new, then okay, you perk up for a little ways. [00:48:29.838 – 00:48:33.378] Then you go through that process, and then it gets passed on forward. [00:48:33.378 – 00:48:43.678] Um, in my particular area that I've been going to meetings, it seems like there's so much of a therapeutic, uh, value [00:48:43.678 – 00:48:51.098] of the meeting emphasized that kind of getting past that, that real attention to the drunk- Hmm … [00:48:51.098 – 00:48:52.438] and more a feel-good thing. [00:48:52.438 – 00:48:55.058] You're going to the meeting so you can feel good about it.

[00:48:55.058 – 00:48:57.288] And I never learned my AA that way. [00:48:57.288 – 00:49:02.958] I learned my AA that you, you do the service, and then the result is, is that things will get better for you. [00:49:02.958 – 00:49:03.628] Hmm. [00:49:03.628 – 00:49:05.968] Um, and it seems like sometimes it's the goal now- Hmm … [00:49:05.968 – 00:49:14.540] to go to a meeting and, you know, to share your stuff Listen to an inspirational speaker or something- Mm-hmm … [00:49:14.540 – 00:49:15.560] that makes them feel better- Yeah … [00:49:15.560 – 00:49:16.770] and then doing good in AA. [00:49:16.770 – 00:49:19.320] So I was wondering if you could comment a little bit- Yeah …

[00:49:19.320 – 00:49:21.170] about how you feel- Yeah … [00:49:21.170 – 00:49:22.909] the therapeutic value- Yeah. [00:49:22.909 – 00:49:23.230] There you go … [00:49:23.230 – 00:49:24.280] of an AA meeting as opposed to other services. [00:49:24.280 – 00:49:24.610] All right. [00:49:24.610 – 00:49:26.190] Well, let me, let me hit it two ways, Vic. [00:49:26.190 – 00:49:30.530] One, one is, the other– and I, I'll do it real quick because I know we're right at t-the line. [00:49:30.530 – 00:49:31.250] But… [00:49:31.250 – 00:49:33.930] And I think we'll probably visit this again sometime later. [00:49:33.930 – 00:49:34.730] Let me… [00:49:34.730 – 00:49:36.170] First one, that service thing. [00:49:36.170 – 00:49:42.270] I think when, when y-when I see a problem, I'm obliged to take action.

[00:49:42.270 – 00:49:43.530] If I can. [00:49:43.530 – 00:49:44.549] You can't always. [00:49:44.549 – 00:49:54.910] Um, uh, I've, I've probably been as frustrated as anybody about the, the inefficiency [00:49:54.910 – 00:49:55.830] of our service structure. [00:49:55.830 – 00:50:00.190] So it just bogs down, and we just, we get into minutia and beat it to death. [00:50:00.190 – 00:50:05.970] And, uh, so I took an area position when I retired as a chair of corrections in the state. [00:50:05.970 – 00:50:09.770] And when I went in, uh, my, my, uh… [00:50:09.770 – 00:50:14.850] You know, you do a sort of State of the Union five-minute talk when you get a– go into a position.

[00:50:14.850 – 00:50:16.770] My, my was a very simple talk. [00:50:16.770 – 00:50:27.050] It said, uh, "This is nice stuff we're doing, but, but, but for my money, this will be the least important of the things that I'll do during my two years. [00:50:27.050 – 00:50:30.270] That my most important thing will be the primary purpose. [00:50:30.270 – 00:50:33.550] And what you'll see me doing is stuff that relates to primary purpose. [00:50:33.550 – 00:50:36.730] If it doesn't, you won't see me doing it." So I was kind of serving notice. [00:50:36.730 – 00:50:41.290] When I left, I mean, it's just one guy can make a difference.

[00:50:41.290 – 00:50:46.450] And, and when I left the structure, we had rotated out. [00:50:46.450 – 00:50:55.290] We had real– we had completely realigned our service committee structures there, and I was the guy who initiated the action. [00:50:55.290 – 00:51:04.170] And so what, you know, what we do, I took a look at something that was hopelessly inefficient in terms of the primary purpose. [00:51:04.170 – 00:51:07.470] And, uh, and so put together a, a notion of how to do it. [00:51:07.470 – 00:51:10.250] So I think you can do something no matter who it is.

[00:51:10.250 – 00:51:10.670] It just… [00:51:10.670 – 00:51:15.610] When, when you see a problem, I think it's my, my job to understand that and see if I can offer something better. [00:51:15.610 – 00:51:23.590] And, um, same thing with this, what I was talking about with meetings and meetings, meetings a while ago, is very much what I think. [00:51:23.590 – 00:51:32.530] We, we get an awful lot of our energy spent in kind of one-dimensional activities, where it deals only with me and my recovery. [00:51:32.530 – 00:51:33.370] You know? [00:51:33.370 – 00:51:38.670] And I would submit to you that that's a weird way to treat a self-centered condition.

[00:51:38.670 – 00:51:40.149] As opposed to… [00:51:40.149 – 00:51:44.610] So, so I've got a lot of concern about that sort of thing, but I'm one member. [00:51:44.610 – 00:51:50.070] Uh, but I guarantee you, I belong to one home group, and I'll guarantee you, we don't do that. [00:51:50.070 – 00:51:50.300] You know? [00:51:50.300 – 00:51:53.370] What we do is solution-oriented things, and we're about the primary… [00:51:53.370 – 00:51:55.270] In fact, the name of my group is Primary Purpose. [00:51:55.270 – 00:51:57.550] And, and so I think you can do something. [00:51:57.550 – 00:51:58.850] Gotta start number one with me. [00:51:58.850 – 00:52:05.990] I wanna be the best member I'm capable of being, as well-informed as I can be, as attentive to the, to the alcoholics, uh, as I can be.

[00:52:05.990 – 00:52:11.230] And then I want my group to be the base where I do that, where I can do my work. [00:52:11.230 – 00:52:20.030] So I think, you know, to, the, the realistic thing to do is to start where I am, with me, with my group, with the things in my reach, and wherever I can make some influence. [00:52:20.030 – 00:52:20.410] Yeah. [00:52:20.410 – 00:52:21.650] Thanks very much for bringing that up. [00:52:21.650 – 00:52:24.450] And if we- We've got twenty minutes. [00:52:24.450 – 00:52:25.530] To go? [00:52:25.530 – 00:52:25.580] Mm-hmm. [00:52:25.580 – 00:52:26.750] Oh, bless our hearts. [00:52:26.750 – 00:52:28.210] My God.

[00:52:28.210 – 00:52:30.550] Here, well, let me d– let me get into three a little bit. [00:52:30.550 – 00:52:32.570] Maybe I'll get back. [00:52:32.570 – 00:52:35.510] Uh, let's call it jet lag. [00:52:35.510 – 00:52:42.590] Some people would call it encroaching senility, but- … [00:52:42.590 – 00:52:43.750] that's a kinder term. [00:52:43.750 – 00:52:44.890] Oh, okay. [00:52:44.890 – 00:52:45.990] I d– I forgot about that. [00:52:45.990 – 00:52:47.150] I'm sorry about that. [00:52:47.150 – 00:52:52.150] Let, let's get into three because that's kind of a, a chall- challenging thing. [00:52:52.150 – 00:52:56.170] Un-unless somebody got something real urgent you wanna do on the oth- those other two. [00:52:56.170 – 00:52:58.590] All right, well, let's do three a little bit.

[00:52:58.590 – 00:53:08.670] Probably, probably the most discussed and, and debated thing in, in all of Alcoholics Anonymous, [00:53:08.670 – 00:53:09.490] and for good reason. [00:53:09.490 – 00:53:10.470] It's vitally important. [00:53:10.470 – 00:53:17.850] The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. [00:53:17.850 – 00:53:19.310] That's nice. [00:53:19.310 – 00:53:21.350] If y-you got the long form handy? [00:53:21.350 – 00:53:22.280] Yes. [00:53:22.280 – 00:53:22.970] If you look… [00:53:22.970 – 00:53:26.610] That water gets a little deeper if you look at the long form. [00:53:26.610 – 00:53:33.930] The, the, the short form says, "Only requirement is the desire to stop drinking." Thurbon said, "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.

[00:53:33.930 – 00:53:40.210] Hence, we may refuse none who wish to recover, nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or conformity. [00:53:40.210 – 00:53:50.230] Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation." So the traditions give us [00:53:50.230 – 00:53:50.970] the framework. [00:53:50.970 – 00:53:55.550] They don't give absolutely clear resolution, but they give the framework [00:53:56.510 – 00:54:02.429] And to me, the principle that really matters is, again, look at it from a personal standpoint. [00:54:02.429 – 00:54:12.510] My first eight or nine months in AA, I was there, I looked like a member,

[00:54:12.510 – 00:54:13.830] I acted like a member. [00:54:13.830 – 00:54:16.730] I felt like I was from another planet. [00:54:16.730 – 00:54:19.220] I wasn't a member. [00:54:19.220 – 00:54:20.730] I was just sitting there. [00:54:20.730 – 00:54:28.490] And there's a big difference between membership, belonging, and attending meetings. [00:54:28.490 – 00:54:38.570] And so the important principle in this thing to me is that if I really want to be a functioning member of Alcoholics Anonymous [00:54:38.570 – 00:54:43.630] and have it one hundred percent effective, then I need to be one hundred percent in it. [00:54:43.630 – 00:54:53.970] And so very important that when I did– when I th-threw the steps, I got to a point that I honest to God

[00:54:53.970 – 00:54:59.050] knew I was beat, that I was alcoholic and had a desire to stop drinking. [00:54:59.050 – 00:55:02.950] When that happened, I became a real member. [00:55:02.950 – 00:55:06.330] Didn't sign anything, didn't tell anybody. [00:55:06.330 – 00:55:07.570] That was not necessary. [00:55:07.570 – 00:55:08.490] Nobody cared. [00:55:08.490 – 00:55:18.790] It mattered a great deal to me because once I got to the point where the comparisons and the uncertainty were gone, I [00:55:18.790 – 00:55:21.870] became a solid member of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:55:21.870 – 00:55:31.870] And from that day to this, I have never gone to one single meeting without clear understanding of why I'm there, one hundred

[00:55:31.870 – 00:55:32.430] percent. [00:55:32.430 – 00:55:37.790] I've never gone to a meeting where my agenda was to go get what I need. [00:55:37.790 – 00:55:42.970] My agenda is to go and make a contribution. [00:55:42.970 – 00:55:53.070] And, and so it just changes the character of this whole deal for me to, to, uh, to have that re– that, that, that requirement [00:55:53.070 – 00:55:55.410] met, so I can be solid. [00:55:55.410 – 00:55:59.410] I, I, I just say this for, for what it was worth. [00:55:59.410 – 00:56:09.750] Somebody was, uh, was talking to me, uh, uh, recently about the business about multi-labeling, you know, like alcoholic,

[00:56:09.750 – 00:56:15.950] addict, uh, or S-SA, uh, whatever, but just about doing these things. [00:56:15.950 – 00:56:25.950] And, and I, and, and I said, "Well, I mean, you free to do that," but I would really counsel against it because the more [00:56:25.950 – 00:56:27.770] you spread it out, the weaker it gets. [00:56:27.770 – 00:56:35.210] And the more you focus on, on, on who you are, what you're about, the more solid it's gonna be. [00:56:35.210 – 00:56:44.749] You know, in Doc's opinion, that little paragraph there where it says, "Fry the emotional appeal won't cut it." And what it talks about is depth and weight.

[00:56:44.749 – 00:56:50.390] You know, wearing every badge known to man is not gonna make me a stronger person. [00:56:50.390 – 00:56:52.030] It's gonna make me weaker. [00:56:52.030 – 00:56:53.990] It's gonna make me more and more spread out. [00:56:53.990 – 00:57:04.710] And the more I can focus in, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I'm alcoholic, one hundred percent full-blooded. [00:57:04.710 – 00:57:10.150] Some of my behaviors would have qualified me for anything I wanna join. [00:57:10.150 – 00:57:13.030] But no, thanks. [00:57:13.030 – 00:57:16.050] One affliction is enough. [00:57:16.050 – 00:57:21.410] And so, so that's, that's what's really important to me from that personal standpoint.

[00:57:21.410 – 00:57:23.810] I wanna be in the middle of the boat. [00:57:23.810 – 00:57:26.730] I don't wanna be a part of some fringe movement. [00:57:26.730 – 00:57:31.610] I, I wanna be in the middle of the boat because you rarely fall out of the middle of the boat. [00:57:31.610 – 00:57:33.410] On the sides, you get in trouble. [00:57:33.410 – 00:57:43.430] So real concern, but it, it's– I wish it were just that simple, that it was just what I think and what, what I believe. [00:57:43.430 – 00:57:47.250] But unfortunately, it's not. [00:57:47.250 – 00:57:58.070] I don't think there's a place in this country that I've been in the last at least twenty-five years that

[00:57:58.070 – 00:58:01.690] this isn't high on the agenda of concerns. [00:58:01.690 – 00:58:05.050] I mean, high on the agenda of concern. [00:58:05.050 – 00:58:10.380] Most of the time, I don't even get out of the airport before we're talking about this issue. [00:58:10.380 – 00:58:12.390] And it's troubling. [00:58:12.390 – 00:58:18.350] It is genuinely troubling because we're not mean-spirited people as a rule. [00:58:18.350 – 00:58:19.970] You know, we're people who wanna help. [00:58:19.970 – 00:58:30.030] But it's a dilemma when your heart to help interferes with the reality of what we're doing and with what we, what we see as a

[00:58:30.030 – 00:58:33.350] loyalty to a, to a purpose that's, that, that's ours. [00:58:33.350 – 00:58:35.670] So it's a troubling kind of, of issue. [00:58:35.670 – 00:58:39.070] I, I wish it were real simple, but it, but it's certainly not for me. [00:58:39.070 – 00:58:41.950] It's, uh… [00:58:41.950 – 00:58:50.830] I tell you, I'll tell you what, what I see that, that, uh, that, that underlines the importance of me. [00:58:50.830 – 00:59:00.850] There are places in this country, and I won't name any, but there are places in this country that pretend no, no resistance [00:59:00.850 – 00:59:01.210] to this.

[00:59:01.210 – 00:59:06.230] There, there are places in this country, talking about big places in this country, that have given up. [00:59:06.230 – 00:59:09.070] They make no pretense of singleness of purpose. [00:59:09.070 – 00:59:11.790] Some just have given up. [00:59:11.790 – 00:59:17.910] I, I was in a, a town in a neighboring state a while back, and I ran into an old buddy of mine. [00:59:17.910 – 00:59:18.570] He was a… [00:59:18.570 – 00:59:19.530] Now he was old. [00:59:19.530 – 00:59:22.450] And, uh, so I said, "Man, where you been? [00:59:22.450 – 00:59:32.570] I hadn't seen you for the longest time." And, and he said, "Well, I've been around." And I said, "Are you still going to the, the– name the group?" And he said, "No, I left." And,

[00:59:32.570 – 00:59:34.570] uh, and he didn't sound belligerent. [00:59:34.570 – 00:59:35.630] He sounded sad. [00:59:35.630 – 00:59:39.570] A-and I said, "Why did you leave?" He was founder of the group. [00:59:39.570 – 00:59:50.330] I was, "Why did you leave?" And he said, "I tell you, Tom, it got so bad that I wouldn't even take my wife to a meeting because [00:59:50.330 – 01:00:00.338] the behavior and the language and the, the, just the mixed bag of people was more than we could stand." And so what this guy did was [01:00:00.338 – 01:00:10.358] left something to which I know he had great loyalty, but he got past his point of frustration tolerance, and he engaged in what they call white flight, eh?

[01:00:10.358 – 01:00:15.638] He, he, he moved out to the suburbs and moved his group out, out of town. [01:00:15.638 – 01:00:26.178] Well, that's a, that's a– to me is a sad loss when in that same state, there's a place where the oldest– [01:00:26.178 – 01:00:30.998] there's, there's a club, it's the oldest club in that state where AA started in that state. [01:00:30.998 – 01:00:34.738] I know some of the guys on the board. [01:00:34.738 – 01:00:43.218] There are only six people left who, to hang on to preserve the tradition because it's the, the, the motherland.

[01:00:43.218 – 01:00:45.758] They hang on to preserve its tradition. [01:00:45.758 – 01:00:52.178] And it's, uh– I was talking why, and it's, it's gotten to the point that it's dangerous to go to a meeting. [01:00:52.178 – 01:00:57.698] Now I'm talking about street assaulty behavior in an AA meeting. [01:00:57.698 – 01:01:00.318] So it's not a cosmetic problem. [01:01:00.318 – 01:01:06.788] It's a deeply troubling systemic problem that just absolutely rips the innards out of this thing. [01:01:06.788 – 01:01:10.858] And so there are very real challenging kinds of issues involved in it. [01:01:10.858 – 01:01:20.858] And, uh, so those are troubling kind of things to me, and I hope they are to you because somewhere along the line, we have to, we have to determine, every one of

[01:01:20.858 – 01:01:24.178] us has to determine where we stand. [01:01:24.178 – 01:01:25.038] What do you believe? [01:01:25.038 – 01:01:28.738] And I, I tell you what it comes down to to me. [01:01:28.738 – 01:01:36.898] I, well, I was over at a– I, I, I sponsored a group at a prison. [01:01:36.898 – 01:01:41.258] I was over there one night, and they, uh, they were having an election. [01:01:41.258 – 01:01:51.578] And, and they, they nominated a guy to be chairman of the AA group who was chairman of the NA group, [01:01:51.578 – 01:01:52.598] and he was visiting that group.

[01:01:52.598 – 01:01:54.278] And he's a nice guy. [01:01:54.278 – 01:01:55.218] Yeah, I know him. [01:01:55.218 – 01:01:59.038] And, uh, so they nominated him and started to vote. [01:01:59.038 – 01:02:01.038] Well, I'm an outside sponsor. [01:02:01.038 – 01:02:02.418] I'm not a visitor, you know. [01:02:02.418 – 01:02:07.118] And a sponsor of a group has got the same kind of responsibilities as it does to an individual. [01:02:07.118 – 01:02:10.138] And so they're getting ready to vote, and I said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. [01:02:10.138 – 01:02:11.058] Hey, come on, guys. [01:02:11.058 – 01:02:12.838] You can't do that. [01:02:12.838 – 01:02:16.038] Mike can't be chairman of the AA group. [01:02:16.038 – 01:02:16.858] He's not a member.

[01:02:16.858 – 01:02:26.878] He's a good guy, but he's not a member." And Mike had– when he was nominated, he just kind of hung his head, and I [01:02:26.878 – 01:02:29.858] knew that what I was saying was embarrassing to him. [01:02:29.858 – 01:02:34.318] And I hated that and apologized to him after the meeting. [01:02:34.318 – 01:02:36.398] But see what I'm talking about? [01:02:36.398 – 01:02:45.238] You're watching, uh, something go down the toilet that you just can't do unless you're gonna sacrifice the principles that surround it. [01:02:45.238 – 01:02:49.278] And so Mike understood that, and, and privately we got together.

[01:02:49.278 – 01:02:50.398] We're, we're good friends. [01:02:50.398 – 01:02:51.658] He's a, he's a good guy. [01:02:51.658 – 01:03:01.678] And after the meeting, when we got to the end of the meeting, the chair said, um, said, "Tom, the, these, a lot of our– a lot of guys are, [01:03:01.678 – 01:03:11.838] are really troubled about, confused about what you were talking about regarding the election." He said, "Would you elaborate on that a little bit?" Well, you know how sometimes when you're [01:03:11.838 – 01:03:16.878] trapped, you, you got no alternative except to tell what you really believe?

[01:03:16.878 – 01:03:20.578] You know, I, I didn't have time to make a couldn't rehearse anything. [01:03:20.578 – 01:03:31.218] So I never, I d- But I just sort of instinctively [01:03:31.218 – 01:03:37.238] said, I said, "You, you remember when Alcoholics Anonymous was formed, you've read about it, about Bill and Bob. [01:03:37.238 – 01:03:43.218] And you remember what happened there where the old beat-up stockbroker and the decrepit doc got together. [01:03:43.218 – 01:03:53.618] And when they met, what they found and, and staked their lives on was that when one alcoholic talks to another alcoholic,

[01:03:53.618 – 01:04:04.418] bares his soul, something happens that's monumentally important." It's the basic tenet of our entire fellowship, [01:04:04.418 – 01:04:05.458] the basic tenet. [01:04:05.458 – 01:04:07.798] It never gets beyond that. [01:04:07.798 – 01:04:17.837] The most noble we'll ever be, I don't care how big we get or how many internationals we have, we'll never be more noble than one, one drunk reaching [01:04:17.838 – 01:04:19.498] out, connecting with another drunk. [01:04:19.498 – 01:04:24.278] Well, that basic tenet is either right or it's wrong. [01:04:24.278 – 01:04:27.598] You believe one way or the other. [01:04:27.598 – 01:04:29.258] It's either right or it's wrong.

[01:04:29.258 – 01:04:39.478] If it's right, every one of us who believes that [01:04:39.478 – 01:04:43.108] has an absolute responsibility to see [01:04:43.208 – 01:04:50.668] That the next person who walks into our doors gets the same opportunity. [01:04:50.668 – 01:04:56.788] Am I gonna take it on myself to modify and invent a new program? [01:04:56.788 – 01:04:59.108] Don't bet on it. [01:04:59.108 – 01:05:00.208] No. [01:05:00.208 – 01:05:05.548] I, I think we're honor bound if we believe that tenet. [01:05:05.548 – 01:05:08.648] If we don't believe it, it doesn't matter. [01:05:08.648 – 01:05:11.108] It makes absolutely no difference. [01:05:11.108 – 01:05:17.428] If it does matter, our very lives depend on it and the lives of those to come.

[01:05:17.428 – 01:05:23.068] So I think it's a lot more than just tolerance or what we can accommodate. [01:05:23.068 – 01:05:24.868] I think that's nuisance level. [01:05:24.868 – 01:05:25.237] Mm-hmm. [01:05:25.237 – 01:05:28.768] The real basic thing is, is it solid? [01:05:28.768 – 01:05:32.058] Is it a principle that, that, that need be preserved? [01:05:32.058 – 01:05:39.588] Rules are what you use when you don't wanna think, and you don't wanna communicate. [01:05:39.588 – 01:05:41.798] All you do is, "Here's the rule," that's all, you know. [01:05:41.798 – 01:05:43.028] So there's nothing going on. [01:05:43.028 – 01:05:44.908] So principle is a little bit more challenging. [01:05:44.908 – 01:05:56.088] And when you're, when you're thinking about, about this third tradition and about membership and about how to fit in, remember

[01:05:56.088 – 01:05:59.128] that this is a self-diagnosed condition. [01:05:59.128 – 01:06:04.748] Nobody on, on this planet can tell you if you have it or you don't. [01:06:04.748 – 01:06:14.768] I mean, some people can try, and they can hang any kind of label they want to on you, but it is a self-diagnosed condition in terms of membership [01:06:14.768 – 01:06:15.328] in AA. [01:06:15.328 – 01:06:20.048] Now, I can tell one when I see one, but that doesn't mean a thing to him. [01:06:20.048 – 01:06:21.468] That doesn't mean a thing. [01:06:21.468 – 01:06:31.588] Very important, I'm the only guy in the world that can effectively declare my condition so that it has real meaning and purpose,

[01:06:31.588 – 01:06:34.428] and so none, none of anybody else's business really. [01:06:34.428 – 01:06:34.928] That, that… [01:06:34.928 – 01:06:39.168] I'm, I'm, I am a member when I say I'm a member. [01:06:39.168 – 01:06:45.388] And we don't– No qualification, no resume, don't have no applications. [01:06:45.388 – 01:06:47.048] It's a self-declared thing. [01:06:47.048 – 01:06:51.888] And I'm a member until I either quit or take a drink, whichever comes first. [01:06:51.888 – 01:06:57.568] And, uh, so it's, it's, it's very much a self-administered thing. [01:06:57.568 – 01:07:04.048] Uh, we're about as, as generous as could be in terms of membership, in terms of groups.

[01:07:04.048 – 01:07:12.228] You know, that I've got some fairly exacting kinds of conditions that I, that are important to me as a group. [01:07:12.228 – 01:07:19.948] But if you listen to the definition of a group, if it could get any more free, I, I could not imagine it. [01:07:19.948 – 01:07:29.948] Any two of us, or more if we care to, can declare them– any two alcoholics c-can declare [01:07:29.948 – 01:07:32.228] themselves a group. [01:07:32.228 – 01:07:38.268] And that's all there is to it, provided they have no other affiliation. [01:07:38.268 – 01:07:41.328] So we can meet for any purpose.

[01:07:41.328 – 01:07:48.608] If we wanted to, we could form a group to attack the idea of s– of workshops in… [01:07:48.608 – 01:07:50.048] Where are we? [01:07:50.048 – 01:07:50.648] What town are we? [01:07:50.648 – 01:07:51.428] What? [01:07:51.428 – 01:07:52.088] Alamo. [01:07:52.088 – 01:07:53.118] Alamo. [01:07:53.118 – 01:07:53.968] Alamo, California. [01:07:53.968 – 01:07:55.678] God. [01:07:55.678 – 01:07:59.848] That'd be, that'd be pr-pretty much of a meeting probably, but we could do that. [01:07:59.848 – 01:08:01.968] We're ab-ab-absolutely at liberty to do that. [01:08:01.968 – 01:08:05.197] And so it's a, it's a pretty generous kind of a thing. [01:08:05.197 – 01:08:13.508] You know, sometimes, you know, I'll have a tendency to s– to, to state things in pretty emphatic terms.

[01:08:13.508 – 01:08:20.768] But, but understand that, that, that this is something that we each of us have to do, and it's up to us to do it. [01:08:20.768 – 01:08:22.548] I needed to look at you. [01:08:22.548 – 01:08:23.728] You moved out on me here. [01:08:23.728 – 01:08:25.528] I, you were my point to guy. [01:08:25.528 – 01:08:26.548] Now you moved. [01:08:26.548 – 01:08:37.788] Everybody needs a horrible example to say, "See?" Uh, and [01:08:37.788 – 01:08:45.628] so, so don't get hung up on any kind of, uh, labeling, anti-labeling, you'll pass muster, don't pass muster. [01:08:45.628 – 01:08:47.308] The ball's in your court.

[01:08:47.308 – 01:08:49.208] So, you know, you, you, you call the shot. [01:08:49.208 – 01:08:50.068] That's what this does. [01:08:50.068 – 01:09:00.068] And, uh, tell you, the, the, uh, it's like I said earlier, I think when you're gonna look at a problem, it's important to understand [01:09:00.068 – 01:09:04.488] it and take the actions to do something about it. [01:09:04.488 – 01:09:06.648] And, and I don't think it's an insoluble problem. [01:09:06.648 – 01:09:11.687] You know, sometimes we, we solve it in ways that, that I don't, I don't particularly care for. [01:09:11.687 – 01:09:21.788] You know, like my buddy, um, that I was referring to, that left a group that he was totally loyal to and moved away.

[01:09:21.788 – 01:09:24.168] I don't like that solution. [01:09:24.168 – 01:09:26.488] You know, I mean, I don't move easily. [01:09:26.488 – 01:09:30.828] I, I, I guess I could, but it'd take a lot. [01:09:30.828 – 01:09:33.908] And, and so I hate that kind of a thing. [01:09:33.908 – 01:09:35.328] There was, uh… [01:09:35.328 – 01:09:40.628] Some-sometimes this, this happens so much that it can get out of hand. [01:09:40.628 – 01:09:49.248] I, I was in a city a while back and, uh, a la-lady– The guy was gonna pick me up, and he was having his wife pick me up at the airport.

[01:09:49.248 – 01:09:52.928] And she was a nice young schoolteacher, real, real, real nice gal. [01:09:52.928 – 01:09:55.768] Seven, seven years in the program. [01:09:55.768 – 01:09:58.288] And so we were chatting, you know, like you do when you're riding in. [01:09:58.288 – 01:10:00.948] And she didn't have any major concerns, you know. [01:10:00.948 – 01:10:02.188] She was just– We were talking. [01:10:02.188 – 01:10:03.468] I was talking about my home group. [01:10:03.468 – 01:10:04.548] She was talking about hers. [01:10:04.548 – 01:10:10.508] And in the course of it, it became pretty clear to me we weren't talking about the same thing. [01:10:10.508 – 01:10:13.388] And, uh, and so…

[01:10:13.388 – 01:10:15.428] Now, I mean, she was a kind of a naive girl. [01:10:15.428 – 01:10:18.807] At seven years, she, she's a bright girl, but she was kind of naive. [01:10:18.807 – 01:10:29.307] And, uh, so I'm listening to her, and I said, "Tell me more about your home group." And, and, and what she said was that [01:10:29.308 – 01:10:39.028] what my friend did in– over on the East Coast, she didn't put it in these words, but it was what– where it fell into my, to my thinking, my understanding.

[01:10:39.028 – 01:10:49.736] She said, "Well, a home group is a place- Where you meet and you're not registered [01:10:49.736 – 01:10:50.776] as an open group. [01:10:50.776 – 01:10:57.216] That you meet, and it's like, almost like a bridge club, that it moves from home to home. [01:10:57.216 – 01:11:00.096] And, uh, now I'm just listening. [01:11:00.096 – 01:11:10.156] And, and, and she, uh, she said, "The criteria is you must be one year sober and be invited." Well, and I'm listening, [01:11:10.156 – 01:11:14.295] and there's something, something that wasn't, wasn't gelling just right. [01:11:14.295 – 01:11:21.716] And, and I really didn't want to be, be, you know, some kind of, you know, uh, crossfire type of thing going on.

[01:11:21.716 – 01:11:27.796] I, I, I said, "What about the people who don't have a year? [01:11:27.796 – 01:11:35.436] Where do they go?" And, uh, she, she honestly acted like she had not considered the question. [01:11:35.436 – 01:11:45.706] She said, "Geez, I don't know." She said, "I suppose they go downtown and to the club." And I said, "Well, who works with them?" And [01:11:45.706 – 01:11:51.656] she said, "I guess they work with each other." Well, come on now. [01:11:51.656 – 01:11:55.256] It's one thing to find a group where you belong. [01:11:55.256 – 01:11:59.396] It's another thing to go completely undercover.

[01:11:59.396 – 01:12:09.396] You know, and my notion is that's about as far away from the spirit of AA as you could get, where you've got to fit a [01:12:09.396 – 01:12:11.756] criteria to attend a meeting. [01:12:11.756 – 01:12:15.016] And now I know that there are places like… [01:12:15.016 – 01:12:19.016] I do, I do big book workshops with, with people I… [01:12:19.016 – 01:12:25.316] Like, I like to work with new people, and I'll do those because it gives me the opportunity to work with people. [01:12:25.316 – 01:12:30.036] But, but I travel a lot, and so I wouldn't get a chance to do it one-on-one.

[01:12:30.036 – 01:12:36.216] And, uh, and having done it in groups, I wouldn't do it one-on-one if I could because I think there's an extra power in the group. [01:12:36.216 – 01:12:38.196] And so I, I do that periodically. [01:12:38.196 – 01:12:40.076] These are not regular meetings. [01:12:40.076 – 01:12:41.976] They're not listed. [01:12:41.976 – 01:12:43.656] They're not open. [01:12:43.656 – 01:12:48.216] These are special purpose meetings where we're going through the book. [01:12:48.216 – 01:12:48.916] It'd be… [01:12:48.916 – 01:12:54.546] Can you imagine trying to do an intensive workshop with, with open door where folks are wandering in and out? [01:12:54.546 – 01:12:55.576] You'd never get anything done.

[01:12:55.576 – 01:13:04.476] So there's a place for that kind of work where you go do some intensive work with a group of people who want to do some intensive work. [01:13:04.476 – 01:13:13.576] But when that starts– What this gal said was, uh, that, that she thought that seventy-five percent of the groups in that city were in that category. [01:13:13.576 – 01:13:16.216] That's– I don't know. [01:13:16.216 – 01:13:17.656] I'm not– It's none of my business. [01:13:17.656 – 01:13:18.996] Well, it is some of my business. [01:13:18.996 – 01:13:19.836] But I… [01:13:19.836 – 01:13:21.756] It's some of our business.

[01:13:21.756 – 01:13:26.656] Uh, but it's just one of the ways that, that folks have responded to problems, you know. [01:13:26.656 – 01:13:29.556] And, and so troubling, troubling whole kind of a deal. [01:13:29.556 – 01:13:35.076] Let, let me tell you some things that, that I think that come to the heading of dealing with it. [01:13:35.076 – 01:13:45.456] First time I ever ran into it was, uh, where, uh, you know, I came into AA just after Narcotics Anonymous [01:13:45.456 – 01:13:46.116] was formed. [01:13:46.116 – 01:13:56.245] And, uh, and, and, and I'm sure you're aware that Narcotics Anonymous was formed out of a couple of guys who could, couldn't get what they needed in AA,

[01:13:56.245 – 01:13:58.426] and said, "We need something different." So they formed Narcotics… [01:13:58.426 – 01:13:59.296] In fact, in this state. [01:13:59.296 – 01:14:02.296] And, uh, I heard about it. [01:14:02.296 – 01:14:05.996] Some of the other guys in the group I was in heard about it. [01:14:05.996 – 01:14:16.416] And we had– It was not any, any real huge conflict, but, you know, it was clear that back then, what we had basically was horse junkies and, uh, speed [01:14:16.416 – 01:14:16.696] freaks. [01:14:16.696 – 01:14:19.536] I was more of the latter, the speed freak. [01:14:19.536 – 01:14:20.756] I still haven't slowed down.

[01:14:20.756 – 01:14:24.716] That stuff, that stuff does something to your wiring, I'll tell you that. [01:14:24.716 – 01:14:29.676] Uh, but anyway, that, that's basically what it was. [01:14:29.676 – 01:14:32.876] And, uh, and prescription meds was a big, big thing. [01:14:32.876 – 01:14:40.396] And, and but what we noticed was that when winos were talking, horse junkies would, would space out and vice versa. [01:14:40.396 – 01:14:44.416] And so when Narcotics Anonymous came by, we got talking about that. [01:14:44.416 – 01:14:54.496] And those of us in the group who were doing some leadership type stuff helped form a group of Narcotics Anonymous, not as members,

[01:14:54.496 – 01:14:55.816] but as good neighbors, you know. [01:14:55.816 – 01:15:00.796] And, uh, it's very significant to me that group still meets to this day. [01:15:00.796 – 01:15:02.196] Never stopped. [01:15:02.196 – 01:15:11.276] See, that's a way to deal with it in a way that that's a contribution and not some kind of a selective sorting process, you know. [01:15:11.276 – 01:15:15.896] But, but doing something that, that provides ongoing service for a long, long time. [01:15:15.896 – 01:15:25.936] Uh, tell you another thing that, that I've been involved in, in, uh, in, in my [01:15:25.936 – 01:15:26.616] home group.

[01:15:26.616 – 01:15:30.306] Uh, one night I was– Not the, the group- [01:15:30.446 – 01:15:31.366] Right before the one I'm in now. [01:15:31.366 – 01:15:38.686] A guy came to me one night and said, uh, "We need to do a group inventory." Well, that's an unusual request. [01:15:38.686 – 01:15:46.725] And, and, and I said, "Why is that?" He said, "We got too many addicts in here." And I, I know I get… [01:15:46.725 – 01:15:48.245] I sometimes, I get busy. [01:15:48.245 – 01:15:49.846] I don't even pay attention to what's going on. [01:15:49.846 – 01:16:00.126] And, uh, so I said, "Well, let me take a look, see if I see." Well, what it was, was a bunch of c- a bunch of youngsters that were being brought in from a facility, a juvenile facility.

[01:16:00.126 – 01:16:04.745] Well, my God, those kids didn't know if they were alcoholics or rabbits. [01:16:04.745 – 01:16:08.026] I, you know, They had no clue. [01:16:08.026 – 01:16:10.756] I mean, they, all they knew is what people had told them, you know. [01:16:10.756 – 01:16:14.266] So they come in there with, "I'm this, that, or the other." Well, that's all it was. [01:16:14.266 – 01:16:18.446] And true to form, most of our wounds are self-inflicted. [01:16:18.446 – 01:16:24.206] What was happening was it was perfectly okay for them to be there in the open. [01:16:24.206 – 01:16:28.086] We did an open session and broke into a variety of closed and open meetings.

[01:16:28.086 – 01:16:36.025] And so what was happening in the spirit of trying to be inclusive, our members were, were asking them to do the readings and stuff like that. [01:16:36.025 – 01:16:38.646] Well, see, we, we caused that. [01:16:38.646 – 01:16:41.325] And so it, it was a little troubling. [01:16:41.325 – 01:16:47.586] So we met, steering committee met, chatted about it, and, uh, we decided to do two things. [01:16:47.586 – 01:16:51.426] Said, "We ought to go over and meet with the director of the facility," and they asked me if I would do that.

[01:16:51.426 – 01:16:56.126] And I said, "Okay, I'd be glad to." Went over and met with the, the lady who directed the program. [01:16:56.126 – 01:16:57.566] Nice young social worker. [01:16:57.566 – 01:16:59.285] Really nice gal. [01:16:59.285 – 01:17:04.745] And I told her what the problem was, and, and she had never heard of a closed meeting. [01:17:04.745 – 01:17:07.986] They don't teach that in social work school. [01:17:07.986 – 01:17:09.846] Where would she learn it? [01:17:09.846 – 01:17:10.966] Yeah. [01:17:10.966 – 01:17:12.666] Just os-osmosis or something? [01:17:12.666 – 01:17:15.846] You know, we'd never bothered to tell what we were. [01:17:15.846 – 01:17:18.676] We just assume that they're gonna magically know better.

[01:17:18.676 – 01:17:20.325] And so I explained to her. [01:17:20.325 – 01:17:21.046] She said, "Oh, geez. [01:17:21.046 – 01:17:21.646] That's no problem. [01:17:21.646 – 01:17:23.806] We'll take care of that." But I knew better. [01:17:23.806 – 01:17:24.946] I mean, you can't sort that. [01:17:24.946 – 01:17:26.126] That's like herding cats. [01:17:26.126 – 01:17:28.166] That's, I, I knew that wasn't gonna be enough. [01:17:28.166 – 01:17:36.146] And so went back to the group, and we, we made what's proven to be a tremendously valuable, uh, d-decision. [01:17:36.146 – 01:17:38.426] We started a newcomer group which was open. [01:17:38.426 – 01:17:42.486] And my God, you know, I've never been in a group since.

[01:17:42.486 – 01:17:43.386] That's twenty-five years. [01:17:43.386 – 01:17:51.906] I've never been in a group since that doesn't have a newcomer program because it is a wonderful resource for dealing with people who are not sure who they are. [01:17:51.906 – 01:17:57.206] And in addition to being a great place to introduce folk to, to what the program is. [01:17:57.206 – 01:18:01.126] But it's a great secondary purpose for folk who don't know us. [01:18:01.126 – 01:18:02.646] They will just catch that, check it out. [01:18:02.646 – 01:18:07.526] And it– what it provides is a neutral grone– zone that v- that violates nothing.

[01:18:07.526 – 01:18:09.726] There's, uh, no discomfort. [01:18:09.726 – 01:18:17.966] And, and in all those years, there have only been two occasions when there w– there's never been any major problem. [01:18:17.966 – 01:18:25.366] There've only been two occasions where there was any kind of an, of a, a, you know, kind of a clash, uh, at all. [01:18:25.366 – 01:18:29.966] Both times called by– caused by one of our members, both times. [01:18:29.966 – 01:18:36.506] And it's just a member who can't f– he can't talk to somebody in a less than abrasive way.

[01:18:36.506 – 01:18:40.906] And so when you do that, you're gonna get reaction, you know. [01:18:40.906 – 01:18:43.346] And, and so, but what a resource, eh? [01:18:43.346 – 01:18:44.906] What a resource. [01:18:44.906 – 01:18:48.285] And, you know, in our group, we have, uh, we have two meetings a week. [01:18:48.285 – 01:18:52.686] On Monday night, we have a variety of meetings: a step, a big book, a newcomer. [01:18:52.686 – 01:18:54.866] There's always an open meeting available. [01:18:54.866 – 01:18:56.926] On Thursday, we have an open speaker meeting. [01:18:56.926 – 01:18:58.026] That's always open. [01:18:58.026 – 01:19:08.026] So we're never at a point where we've got to make some kind of an ethical decision of either violating our own principles or making

[01:19:08.026 – 01:19:08.806] folk welcome. [01:19:08.806 – 01:19:13.726] That's been a tremendous resource, a great tool for us in, in dealing with that. [01:19:13.726 – 01:19:16.566] Uh, there, there's a t-ton of stuff. [01:19:16.566 – 01:19:20.546] You probably got as many ideas as I do about ways to deal with that. [01:19:20.546 – 01:19:27.266] The important thing to me is, is to understand, you know, what brings somebody here. [01:19:27.266 – 01:19:37.506] Uh, and oft– And one thing I think we just really need to keep in mind is that it's decreasing somewhat now, but for the last twenty-five

[01:19:37.506 – 01:19:42.366] years or so, most of our membership has come through a treatment experience. [01:19:42.366 – 01:19:52.406] Now, I predated treatment, but I'll guarantee you I have as much appreciation for treatment as any human being because I went [01:19:52.406 – 01:19:55.785] through those days when there was zilch for alcoholics. [01:19:55.785 – 01:20:05.846] And it meant a, excuse me, meant a great deal to me when, when, when treatment started to become generally available and, and alcoholics were treated with the dignity [01:20:05.846 – 01:20:07.046] that an illness deserves. [01:20:07.046 – 01:20:08.886] I really value that.

[01:20:08.886 – 01:20:18.886] And at the same time, it has generated some str- peculiar problems, you know, that, that I, I don't, I mean, I, I don't understand the treatment world, but I understand this: that they have to [01:20:18.886 – 01:20:20.906] use generalist approaches in that. [01:20:20.906 – 01:20:28.576] I mean, they can't, they can't set up a group for every peculiar diagnosis they have, so they use generalist kinds of procedures. [01:20:28.576 – 01:20:38.666] And so typically, somebody will come out of treatment, and, and they may very well h-have been influenced to use a

[01:20:38.666 – 01:20:43.906] number of labels, you know, just, just, just, just a part, it's just part, part of the product of, of, of what happened. [01:20:43.906 – 01:20:54.046] What's important for me to keep in mind is that when somebody comes into a– out of treatment, [01:20:54.046 – 01:20:57.226] what they're stepping into is day one of recovery. [01:20:57.226 – 01:20:58.686] Day one. [01:20:58.686 – 01:21:00.926] Treatment is not recovery. [01:21:00.926 – 01:21:09.306] Treatment is a thing that res– I t- I think lowers the barriers and resistance to recovery so that when somebody gets here… [01:21:09.306 – 01:21:14.285] I tell you what, one reason I love it, it beats the devil out of fishing somebody out of a bootleg joint.

[01:21:14.285 – 01:21:19.086] Man, I had a lot rather r-welcome somebody in that smells good, looks decent. [01:21:19.086 – 01:21:22.926] Uh, deliver me from the good old days. [01:21:22.926 – 01:21:25.206] I, I don't want those dudes to come back. [01:21:25.206 – 01:21:35.326] And, but, but what's important is that, that, that be able to welcome people and patiently help them work through that [01:21:35.326 – 01:21:38.326] uncertainty about whether they're fish or fowl. [01:21:38.326 – 01:21:48.106] And, and that's why I think you have to be real sensitive to this kind of thing and give guidance, give loving guidance to people rather than just some kind of a, a stern deal.

[01:21:48.106 – 01:21:54.649] There, there– for my money, there is never an appropriate way to handle it publicly. [01:21:54.649 – 01:21:58.669] Because if you do, I guarantee you it's a problem. [01:21:58.669 – 01:22:03.249] Somebody's gonna get embarrassed, somebody's gonna get their, their feelings hurt, somebody's gonna get angry. [01:22:03.249 – 01:22:05.489] It's just not the appropriate way. [01:22:05.489 – 01:22:08.709] And, and so I, I just think there are better ways to do it. [01:22:08.709 – 01:22:13.590] Um, so anyway, on, on, on requirements. [01:22:13.590 – 01:22:17.989] The, uh, that's one we could genuinely go all day on. [01:22:17.989 – 01:22:25.050] Uh, but I'm afraid I'll get fired if I spend too much time on, on one thing.

[01:22:25.050 – 01:22:35.070] Um, let me make sure I've covered everything I [01:22:35.070 – 01:22:35.650] wanted to. [01:22:35.650 – 01:22:39.930] Yeah, I think, I think so. [01:22:39.930 – 01:22:40.150] That… [01:22:40.150 – 01:22:42.560] Well, I'll just say this, you know, we talked about structure, eh? [01:22:42.560 – 01:22:49.010] You know, one of the things that, that I, I was disappointed, I don't wanna attack anybody by it, but I'm really disappointed. [01:22:49.010 – 01:22:58.050] One of our recent general service conferences where we deal with weighty issues was devoted to this theme, this thing of singleness of purpose. [01:22:58.050 – 01:23:03.730] And I've, I've searched the literature, I've talked with delegates.

[01:23:03.730 – 01:23:08.570] The best I can tell, the sum total of what we got out of that conference was nothing. [01:23:08.570 – 01:23:18.850] You know, I've, I've absolutely found nothing of any signal whatsoever that we have searched our conscience and made any determinations about [01:23:18.850 – 01:23:19.990] things to do. [01:23:19.990 – 01:23:30.110] And, and that, that's, that's bothersome to me, but it's one of those things that, that if we don't come together and get our conscience to, to work and get this [01:23:30.110 – 01:23:33.790] kind of stuff working, uh, you know, we pay a price.

[01:23:33.790 – 01:23:36.590] Anyway, no extra charge for that. [01:23:36.590 – 01:23:38.090] I, I, I added that. [01:23:38.090 – 01:23:47.570] Uh, four is, um, is, is, well, it's really about minding your own business in a way. [01:23:47.570 – 01:23:52.249] Yeah, I, I'm free to practice AA, and so are you. [01:23:52.249 – 01:24:01.430] I'm free to practice AA any way I wish, provided that I don't interfere with your… [01:24:01.430 – 01:24:04.410] I gotta point at you now 'cause he moved. [01:24:04.410 – 01:24:10.190] That, that provided I don't interfere with your right to do the same thing. [01:24:10.190 – 01:24:20.490] Yeah, it's like in this workshop, you know, that, that you got the right to do this any way you want to, as long as you don't screw up somebody else's opportunity to participate.

[01:24:20.490 – 01:24:24.230] And, and that's just, you really reduce it to common courtesy. [01:24:24.230 – 01:24:26.870] But we're autonomous people. [01:24:26.870 – 01:24:35.050] We're free, but we're responsible to exercise that freedom in a way that's not at somebody else's expense. [01:24:35.050 – 01:24:41.790] And, and so that's a great freedom, but there's, there's a real price tag that, that goes on with that. [01:24:41.790 – 01:24:48.229] I, I tell you where, where that comes into, to play with me. [01:24:48.229 – 01:24:53.090] I, I, uh, I'm a pretty clean guy. [01:24:53.090 – 01:24:55.660] Uh, I don't mean I took a shower this morning.

[01:24:55.660 – 01:24:59.710] I did that, too, but- …but, but I'm pretty clean about what I do. [01:24:59.710 – 01:25:01.410] I don't swear. [01:25:01.410 – 01:25:11.479] Uh, I mean, it's not a solemn oath, you know, but I mean, I, I, sometimes I, if I hit my finger with a hammer, I'll say, "Darn, that hurt." You know, I mean, I was [01:25:11.479 – 01:25:15.990] pretty hairy, but- But I don't. [01:25:15.990 – 01:25:19.070] And, and primarily, I've learned some new adjectives. [01:25:19.070 – 01:25:20.230] I don't really need to. [01:25:20.230 – 01:25:23.870] I can usually make my point quite adequately without, without that.

[01:25:23.870 – 01:25:26.350] And, uh, I've been that way a long time. [01:25:26.350 – 01:25:34.949] And, and, and I'll tell you, it ain't a bad deal because I have never had one single person criticize me for not swearing. [01:25:34.949 – 01:25:41.570] Nobody ever said, "Man, you know, you didn't cuss a single time." Nobody notices. [01:25:41.570 – 01:25:46.090] Well, I do that just because of my own standards. [01:25:46.090 – 01:25:47.370] I just don't wanna do that. [01:25:47.370 – 01:25:48.890] That's, that's not what I wanna communicate. [01:25:48.890 – 01:25:53.050] I also do it in respect to you. [01:25:53.050 – 01:25:55.330] See, I don't know who's here.

[01:25:55.330 – 01:25:57.130] I don't know if this is open or closed. [01:25:57.130 – 01:25:57.850] I didn't ask. [01:25:57.850 – 01:26:01.010] But I have no clue who's here. [01:26:01.010 – 01:26:05.790] Somebody might have brought their mother to a meeting or a child. [01:26:05.790 – 01:26:08.829] Hadn't seen his children last time we had children here. [01:26:08.829 – 01:26:11.570] And, um, so I don't know that. [01:26:11.570 – 01:26:13.350] I can't be sure of that. [01:26:13.350 – 01:26:16.870] I don't know what your sensibilities are about this, you know. [01:26:16.870 – 01:26:17.470] That- [01:26:17.683 – 01:26:22.683] You may have, you may have, uh, uh, some values that you just don't wanna hear that junk.

[01:26:22.683 – 01:26:31.583] And, uh, so I'm not gonna take advantage of my having a platform to impose something on you. [01:26:31.583 – 01:26:33.003] I'm not gonna do that. [01:26:33.003 – 01:26:36.623] The other thing is that I wanna be a decent example. [01:26:36.623 – 01:26:43.503] That if I'm gonna tell you about practicing principles, I wanna act like I practice principles. [01:26:43.503 – 01:26:46.223] You know, I'm not put on some cute performance. [01:26:46.223 – 01:26:53.363] I, I'm here to, to share some principles, and I want my actions to support the verb, the verbiage. [01:26:53.363 – 01:27:00.303] And so that's just a, a personal kind of a commitment that I make, and I've never found any use for it.

[01:27:00.303 – 01:27:01.283] I, I've, I've… [01:27:01.283 – 01:27:02.343] None whatsoever. [01:27:02.343 – 01:27:03.683] The, um… [01:27:03.683 – 01:27:09.283] I, I tell you, I'll give, I'll give you an example of something about how important that is to me. [01:27:09.283 – 01:27:12.263] Uh, not to me, but I think it should be to us. [01:27:12.263 – 01:27:20.143] I was in a, in a conference over in, uh, Tennessee, and, uh, folk are kind of rowdy in Tennessee. [01:27:20.143 – 01:27:22.422] And they were… [01:27:22.422 – 01:27:25.243] I was sitting– I was the Sunday morning speaker. [01:27:25.243 – 01:27:33.743] And I was sitting at the Saturday night meeting behind the lady who was the program chair.

[01:27:33.743 – 01:27:36.883] She was the one that invited the speakers. [01:27:36.883 – 01:27:40.043] And the guy Saturday night, So– I didn't know him. [01:27:40.043 – 01:27:42.323] I'd never seen him or heard of him, nor since. [01:27:42.323 – 01:27:50.243] But he– somebody inv– And he thought that the Saturday night speaker was supposed to be a stand-up comic. [01:27:50.243 – 01:27:52.303] And he wasn't funny. [01:27:52.303 – 01:27:55.923] I mean, the guy just flat bombed o-on everything. [01:27:55.923 – 01:28:01.903] And you know how it is when you're going down the tube, you start fighting harder and paddling harder. [01:28:01.903 – 01:28:08.483] Well, he started trying harder and harder to be funny, and the more he tried, the worse he got.

[01:28:08.483 – 01:28:13.843] And he got into vile profanity and, and vulgarity and this stuff. [01:28:13.843 – 01:28:15.983] And I'm sitting there with my wife. [01:28:15.983 – 01:28:17.523] I didn't like it, personally. [01:28:17.523 – 01:28:19.963] I didn't like my wife listening to that junk. [01:28:19.963 – 01:28:21.223] Didn't like it a bit. [01:28:21.223 – 01:28:24.703] I had a little bit too much loyalty to walk out. [01:28:24.703 – 01:28:26.863] I ain't gonna let anybody run me out. [01:28:26.863 – 01:28:33.652] But, um, I was sitting behind that gal, and there was a, a, a, a fella sitting beside her. [01:28:33.652 – 01:28:34.963] I assumed it was her husband.

[01:28:34.963 – 01:28:37.563] And it's fascinating to watch. [01:28:37.563 – 01:28:39.703] I was watching his neck. [01:28:39.703 – 01:28:44.643] And, uh, you know how the thermometer does when it gets this hot in the Bay Area? [01:28:44.643 – 01:28:47.782] It's– his neck just kept turning red. [01:28:47.782 – 01:28:50.843] And his, his ears started getting red and glowing. [01:28:50.843 – 01:28:58.363] And I, I said, "I don't think that boy likes this." And so, and so after the– he finally gave up. [01:28:58.363 – 01:29:00.063] I mean, he just, he just quit. [01:29:00.063 – 01:29:02.563] He, he didn't finish anything. [01:29:02.563 – 01:29:05.503] He got a mild ovation for quitting.

[01:29:05.503 – 01:29:15.543] And so, and afterward, I, I, I, I caught up with the gal, and I said, uh, "It looked like your [01:29:15.543 – 01:29:25.563] f- your, your friend didn't particularly appreciate the meeting." And she said, "My God, Tom, you will never know how embarrassed I [01:29:25.563 – 01:29:30.263] was and humiliated." That was her minister- Oh. [01:29:30.263 – 01:29:33.043] at his first meeting. [01:29:33.043 – 01:29:34.033] Oh. [01:29:34.033 – 01:29:37.083] And I'll absolutely guarantee you at his last meeting. [01:29:37.083 – 01:29:39.353] Yeah. [01:29:39.353 – 01:29:43.963] That fella wouldn't have recommended– He'd have recommended somebody to hell before he would AA.

[01:29:43.963 – 01:29:46.843] And what a disservice, eh? [01:29:46.843 – 01:29:57.023] What a disservice to a guy that was a potential friend of this fellowship, and we give him a demonstration like that. [01:29:57.023 – 01:30:03.783] Uh, so there's more to it than just exercising my freedom to express myself. [01:30:03.783 – 01:30:07.623] It's a matter of a responsibility that goes with the trust. [01:30:07.623 – 01:30:10.883] You didn't invite me here for some X-rated junk. [01:30:10.883 – 01:30:19.783] And, and so, so you never know the, the, the impact of what we do in the way we carry ourselves.

[01:30:19.783 – 01:30:22.403] And I, I think it's an important kind of a responsibility. [01:30:22.403 – 01:30:24.843] I don't try to impose my values. [01:30:24.843 – 01:30:26.863] I don't scold people unless I'm sponsoring them. [01:30:26.863 – 01:30:33.843] I, I, I don't sc- I don't scold people about, uh, about what they do, uh, unless it really gets bizarre. [01:30:33.843 – 01:30:37.663] And even then, I, I mean, I'm not in charge of that. [01:30:37.663 – 01:30:43.023] Uh, anyway, I mean, you could talk all day about that, but it– you get the point. [01:30:43.023 – 01:30:44.483] I, I think it's a responsibility.

[01:30:44.483 – 01:30:44.843] Yeah. [01:30:44.843 – 01:30:47.323] You said, Kent? [01:30:47.323 – 01:30:52.063] Penny's got a burning desire or hot flash or something. [01:30:52.063 – 01:31:02.083] Tom, I have a question about the story you [01:31:02.083 – 01:31:02.643] just told. [01:31:02.643 – 01:31:07.343] Now, I've been taught, as many of us have, to go up and thank the speaker after the meeting. [01:31:07.343 – 01:31:12.103] I've sat– I have shared podiums with speakers like you're describing. [01:31:12.103 – 01:31:15.583] What do you do after the meeting? [01:31:15.583 – 01:31:18.503] How do you, how do you handle it? [01:31:18.503 – 01:31:20.383] I avoided him like the plague. [01:31:20.383 – 01:31:25.203] He tried to catch me several times, but I just…

[01:31:25.203 – 01:31:27.803] I, I knew if I said, it's kind of like it was that group thing. [01:31:27.803 – 01:31:31.203] I knew if I said anything, I was gonna break four hundred on him. [01:31:31.203 – 01:31:33.823] And I said, "No." I just, I just didn't speak to him. [01:31:33.823 – 01:31:37.483] And I thought that was about as, as eloquent a message as I could give him. [01:31:37.483 – 01:31:39.323] And that's what I did. [01:31:39.323 – 01:31:41.303] I'd, I'd, I, uh… [01:31:41.303 – 01:31:45.903] Sometimes, if it's just borderline, you know, I'll, I'll thank the guy for showing up.

[01:31:45.903 – 01:31:53.503] You know, I, I, but I won't get into, "You have a wonderful job, and I'll never be the same." None of that. [01:31:53.503 – 01:31:58.803] I'll, I'll exercise courtesy as long as it doesn't get to endorsement, you know? [01:31:58.803 – 01:32:04.423] But, uh, but that's basically what I do with that thing is, uh, it's, it's an awfully important thing. [01:32:04.423 – 01:32:06.043] I, uh, I think, yeah. [01:32:06.043 – 01:32:13.363] And, and so as an individual member, you know, that's, that's what I want to do is I'm, I'm free, but I, I wanna be responsible in that freedom.

[01:32:13.363 – 01:32:21.283] In, in my group, you know, the– my, my group is, um, like, like yours is, uh, it's an autonomous entity. [01:32:21.283 – 01:32:28.503] And I don't belong to the best group in the world, nor the biggest or anything like that. [01:32:28.503 – 01:32:30.523] It, it's– I belong to a sound A group. [01:32:30.523 – 01:32:35.803] And, uh, we're free to operate like we want to. [01:32:35.803 – 01:32:39.283] We're, we're in pretty sharp contrast to most of the groups around us. [01:32:39.283 – 01:32:40.143] You know, we're, we, we… [01:32:40.143 – 01:32:46.722] I don't know about you, but we're hurting for good, well-ordered groups, you know, where all three legacies are in place.

[01:32:46.722 – 01:32:48.043] Uh, we, we're hurting for that. [01:32:48.043 – 01:32:52.003] And so, you know, you know, our group stands in real contrast. [01:32:52.003 – 01:33:02.063] And, uh, in, in my group we have– If, if there's a service in Alcoholics Anonymous that's, that, that, that exists, it exists in my home group, [01:33:02.063 – 01:33:03.973] and we actively pursue that. [01:33:03.973 – 01:33:13.083] What I mean is we have active committees on CPC, the Cooperative Professional Company, pub-public information, treatment facilities, corrections. [01:33:13.083 – 01:33:18.623] We have a newcomers committee, a grapevine, on and on. [01:33:18.623 – 01:33:20.383] Uh, we have a program committee.

[01:33:20.383 – 01:33:26.663] We plan all of our meetings three, uh, thr-three months in advance, and publish a newsletter with all the stuff about it. [01:33:26.663 – 01:33:31.083] And for that reason, we don't get too many surprises on speakers. [01:33:31.083 – 01:33:36.003] Uh, when we line up our speakers, we, we, we, we line them up on the basis of diversity. [01:33:36.003 – 01:33:38.343] Uh, we want them to look like America. [01:33:38.343 – 01:33:45.283] We want them to be old and young and Black and white and Hispanic and gay and straight, and God knows what all.

[01:33:45.283 – 01:33:48.323] If it's on the ark, we wanna get it in there, you know? [01:33:48.323 – 01:33:51.413] As, as long as there's a message. [01:33:51.413 – 01:33:52.643] You know, as long as there's a message. [01:33:52.643 – 01:33:58.303] Now, and, and so, uh, so we have– We'll– That– We put that in, but that's a part of our function. [01:33:58.303 – 01:34:04.203] You know, we can't achieve of our purpose if we're just gonna have a crap shoot about who's gonna be doing the program, so we do planning. [01:34:04.203 – 01:34:09.403] We plan our topics and our, our, our s- our s- our leaders three months in advance.

[01:34:09.403 – 01:34:12.423] And so that's a, that's, that's… [01:34:12.423 – 01:34:14.503] Now we structure– We're a structured group. [01:34:14.503 – 01:34:16.803] You might get that impression from what I'm saying. [01:34:16.803 – 01:34:17.843] We're structured. [01:34:17.843 – 01:34:23.023] The thing I love about structure is that our meetings are never an adventure. [01:34:23.023 – 01:34:25.663] The work's done. [01:34:25.663 – 01:34:28.883] We know what's gonna happen, so then we relax and enjoy it. [01:34:28.883 – 01:34:33.023] We're not scrambling around trying to figure out something brilliant to do on meet, meet night. [01:34:33.023 – 01:34:34.363] We know what we're gonna do. [01:34:34.363 – 01:34:40.923] And so then we can concentrate on more important things like welcoming newcomers and hanging out and, and, and the quality of meetings.

[01:34:40.923 – 01:34:42.743] So we do that. [01:34:42.743 – 01:34:46.283] And, um, so we're not the best group. [01:34:46.283 – 01:34:54.243] I, I'm not interested in being in the best group in the world because I, I think part of the value of a group is measured by what kind of a neighbor are we? [01:34:54.243 – 01:34:56.623] You know, not how good are we. [01:34:56.623 – 01:34:59.963] That– We're not the best group in the region, but what kind of a neighbor? [01:34:59.963 – 01:35:01.963] How– What do we do with a group that's struggling? [01:35:01.963 – 01:35:03.103] What do we do to help out?

[01:35:03.103 – 01:35:07.423] What do we do to support our district activities and our intergroups and stuff like that? [01:35:07.423 – 01:35:16.043] All of those are a part of, of, of, of, of autonomy, that we're free to do what we do, but we have a responsibility. [01:35:16.043 – 01:35:24.423] And so that's what I wanna belong to, is a group that, that genuinely practices that kind of stuff and not just scrambles around trying to have good meetings. [01:35:24.423 – 01:35:28.303] Those are important, but I don't wanna just live on that.

[01:35:28.303 – 01:35:38.333] Um, the, the only other thing that, that I, I just mentioned about that is, is, uh, when, [01:35:38.333 – 01:35:39.283] when I look at… [01:35:39.283 – 01:35:44.043] I, I mentioned a little earlier about this, this, this chain of love and service that goes around the world. [01:35:44.043 – 01:35:54.093] When I think about issues like autonomy and responsibility and stuff like that, I always like to remember that it was somewhere along the line when [01:35:54.093 – 01:35:59.423] we had about a hundred and twenty-five thousand members, somebody stuck out a hand.

[01:35:59.423 – 01:36:04.823] I grabbed it, and I became a hundred and twenty-five thousand and one. [01:36:04.823 – 01:36:13.603] Then I became a ch- a, a link in that chain that reaches literally around this world. [01:36:13.603 – 01:36:19.982] Uh, and so my deal is: what kind of a link am I gonna be? [01:36:19.982 – 01:36:26.663] Am I gonna be a weak one or one where the chain stops, or am I gonna be one that holds it together and makes it stronger? [01:36:26.663 – 01:36:29.123] And so that's sort of the way I see autonomy.

[01:36:29.123 – 01:36:37.043] I'm free to do it, but I'm responsible to carry on what was given to me, and the only job I've got is be sure that the next guy gets as good as I got, you know? [01:36:37.043 – 01:36:37.863] And, and, and so… [01:36:37.863 – 01:36:39.623] And it's– And the same with our group. [01:36:39.623 – 01:36:44.843] I think that's, that's our function, is to be a big piece of this, a small piece of this big, big picture. [01:36:44.843 – 01:36:52.943] Um, on, uh, five, the, uh, talk about our purpose.

[01:36:52.943 – 01:36:58.763] You know, our group's called Primary Purpose, and for good reason. [01:36:58.763 – 01:36:59.503] That's what we do. [01:36:59.503 – 01:37:01.663] It's, um… [01:37:01.663 – 01:37:04.323] But from a personal standpoint- [01:37:05.521 – 01:37:13.861] Yeah, I find there's some pretty great utility in, in, uh, in clarifying that I have a primary purpose as well. [01:37:13.861 – 01:37:23.921] I had a secretary one time, she was a great gal, and she gave me a little plaque, one of those little, you know, one of those little doodad things you put, hang on the wall that tells

[01:37:23.921 – 01:37:25.921] you how to have a wonderful life and all that. [01:37:25.921 – 01:37:32.101] She, she gave me one that, uh, just caught me the minute I looked at it. [01:37:32.101 – 01:37:34.521] And in so many words, it says… [01:37:34.521 – 01:37:40.181] You've probably seen it: "Life breaks us all sometimes." Uh, no. [01:37:40.181 – 01:37:49.901] "Life breaks us all, but we sometimes grow back strongest at the place we were broken." And God, is that ever true. [01:37:49.901 – 01:37:55.721] Yeah, I, I was talking to a welder one time that I was just, I was kinda interested in how do you do that?

[01:37:55.721 – 01:37:58.121] You know , you put that torch on there, and you… [01:37:58.121 – 01:37:59.211] How does this stuff work? [01:37:59.211 – 01:38:00.341] He explained welding to me. [01:38:00.341 – 01:38:05.601] He said, "What you're doing is melting these metals, and then you pull them together," and I learned more than I wanted to know. [01:38:05.601 – 01:38:06.001] I didn't– I… [01:38:06.001 – 01:38:08.741] All I wanted to know was just what he did. [01:38:08.741 – 01:38:10.211] And so he told me a lot of stuff. [01:38:10.211 – 01:38:18.081] And then one of the things he told me that fascinated me is that, that if you do a good weld, the place where it's welded is stronger than the rest of the metal.

[01:38:18.081 – 01:38:20.701] Well, that's a strange thing to me, you know. [01:38:20.701 – 01:38:23.821] But then I think about it, that's exactly what happened here. [01:38:23.821 – 01:38:33.821] That the strongest that I'll ever be is when, when I [01:38:33.821 – 01:38:42.461] am able to, to touch where I was broken and healed and share that with another alcoholic. [01:38:42.461 – 01:38:44.141] That's my purpose. [01:38:44.141 – 01:38:45.721] That's my basic purpose. [01:38:45.721 – 01:38:49.941] My primary purpose is to share that with another alcoholic. [01:38:49.941 – 01:38:59.961] Now, I've got a ton of things that I do, but when it comes to what defines that, that real purpose that lives in me, that's what, that's what

[01:38:59.961 – 01:39:00.361] it is. [01:39:00.361 – 01:39:01.901] I rarely… [01:39:01.901 – 01:39:05.141] When I, when I took that badge, I didn't take it away from her. [01:39:05.141 – 01:39:08.141] I just kinda smooth-talked her into laying it on me. [01:39:08.141 – 01:39:11.321] But I didn't tell her I was in AA. [01:39:11.321 – 01:39:13.720] I would have, but there were some people waiting. [01:39:13.720 – 01:39:16.881] And so I didn't wanna antagonize the crowd. [01:39:16.881 – 01:39:19.521] So I moved on, but I would've done it in a heartbeat. [01:39:19.521 – 01:39:24.381] But I was thinking not that it's a cute badge, but I was thinking about it's a good message.

[01:39:24.381 – 01:39:27.001] You know, that's what I'd like to, to invite y'all to do today. [01:39:27.001 – 01:39:28.061] Sow into service. [01:39:28.061 – 01:39:29.541] Have some fun. [01:39:29.541 – 01:39:30.621] Enjoy this thing. [01:39:30.621 – 01:39:32.021] Don't quit staring at your navel. [01:39:32.021 – 01:39:33.121] Get on with the business. [01:39:33.121 – 01:39:33.721] Yeah. [01:39:33.721 – 01:39:37.561] And, uh, so it's a good thing. [01:39:37.561 – 01:39:40.681] Um, so I've got a primary purpose. [01:39:40.681 – 01:39:42.600] It affects what I do. [01:39:42.600 – 01:39:44.101] It genuinely affects. [01:39:44.101 – 01:39:45.821] It affects how I interact with people. [01:39:45.821 – 01:39:48.261] Uh, and I keep it in mind. [01:39:48.261 – 01:39:48.761] I don't sit… [01:39:48.761 – 01:39:50.421] I'm not obsessive about it. [01:39:50.421 – 01:39:52.281] I do– It's natural.

[01:39:52.281 – 01:40:00.761] It's a part, as much a part of me as breathing, you know, that I'll just automatically come from where my real beliefs grow. [01:40:00.761 – 01:40:05.161] You know, that my primary purpose, the thing that, that where I make my greatest contribution. [01:40:05.161 – 01:40:15.381] I can do a lot of stuff, but that fundamental thing is where I was broken and healed, to have to hire, to share that with other people is a, is an awfully important thing. [01:40:15.381 – 01:40:18.961] It, it, it, it tells me an awful lot about where I paddle my canoe.

[01:40:18.961 – 01:40:28.961] And I mentioned a little earlier that, that about the, the, the importance of [01:40:28.961 – 01:40:30.501] adhering to that primary purpose. [01:40:30.501 – 01:40:35.141] I, I'll tell you what, what the, the Fifth Tradition does for me. [01:40:35.141 – 01:40:43.921] That it's a strange word we don't use a lot here, but I, I think the word that, that resonates into Fifth Tradition to me is integrity. [01:40:43.921 – 01:40:45.341] It's integrity. [01:40:45.341 – 01:40:53.481] We're talking about business, that, you know, a business, you, you'll des– I bet you'll describe your business as one with integrity.

[01:40:53.481 – 01:40:54.801] Yeah. [01:40:54.801 – 01:40:56.861] Yeah, I, I bet they do. [01:40:56.861 – 01:41:02.501] But a business that has integrity means that you go to the bank on what they say. [01:41:02.501 – 01:41:06.161] If they tell you they're selling you something that's new, you know it's new. [01:41:06.161 – 01:41:07.821] You know it's not ripped off. [01:41:07.821 – 01:41:10.161] If it's a good product, they're gonna lay it on you. [01:41:10.161 – 01:41:18.741] Business with integrity, uh, it just sort of, sort of builds itself, you know, and you trust them. [01:41:18.741 – 01:41:20.221] You, you put trust in that. [01:41:20.221 – 01:41:28.381] And so I think the same thing with us, that our primary purpose is what gives us integrity.

[01:41:28.381 – 01:41:39.281] We do one thing better than anything this world has ever seen, and that's help alcoholics recover [01:41:39.281 – 01:41:40.661] from a hopeless condition. [01:41:40.661 – 01:41:42.421] That's all. [01:41:42.421 – 01:41:43.761] That's all. [01:41:43.761 – 01:41:47.861] But we do that one thing exceedingly well. [01:41:47.861 – 01:41:56.751] And then when we adhere to that, and we deliver that around our primary purpose, then we have integrity. [01:41:56.751 – 01:42:01.281] If we start trying to be all things to all people, you know what happens. [01:42:01.281 – 01:42:03.091] We wind up being nothing to nobody. [01:42:03.091 – 01:42:13.321] And so real important for me that, that we understand that, that our group, or me as an individual, has one primary purpose.

[01:42:13.321 – 01:42:18.101] If we– Sometimes we'll slaughter a farm animal and cook it. [01:42:18.101 – 01:42:21.701] I always ignore the first part of it. [01:42:21.701 – 01:42:23.301] I'm never in the slaughter party. [01:42:23.301 – 01:42:28.281] Uh, I'm more in the consumer of the product end of it. [01:42:28.281 – 01:42:31.801] I'll help carry it, but I ain't gonna cook that dude. [01:42:31.801 – 01:42:33.921] And but anyway, that… [01:42:33.921 – 01:42:37.941] We don't do that because we're beef lovers or pork lovers. [01:42:37.941 – 01:42:40.221] We do that because we're drunk lovers. [01:42:40.221 – 01:42:47.761] And a good way, man, I'll tell you, if you wanna draw a crowd, those muffins this morning just got a bunch of us out here, yeah.

[01:42:47.761 – 01:42:52.181] All you gotta, all you gotta do is mention food, and we just come from everywhere, you know. [01:42:52.181 – 01:42:55.161] We'll snarf that stuff up in a heartbeat. [01:42:55.161 – 01:42:56.171] And we gonna… [01:42:56.171 – 01:42:58.481] There's some farm animal cooking now, isn't it? [01:42:58.481 – 01:42:59.280] Yeah. [01:42:59.280 – 01:42:59.441] Some… [01:42:59.441 – 01:43:00.451] We cooking somebody? [01:43:00.451 – 01:43:01.751] Yeah. [01:43:01.751 – 01:43:03.141] We're not gonna cook somebody. [01:43:03.141 – 01:43:05.091] Oh, yeah. [01:43:05.091 – 01:43:05.501] Oh, we are? [01:43:05.501 – 01:43:07.905] All right. [01:43:07.905 – 01:43:08.405] There's hope. [01:43:08.405 – 01:43:09.505] There's hope, guys. [01:43:09.505 – 01:43:10.465] Hope. [01:43:10.465 – 01:43:12.124] Faith, but real. [01:43:12.124 – 01:43:22.145] So, but that's, that's, that's to help carry the message, to get the purpose carried out, and it's just like advertising in a

[01:43:22.145 – 01:43:23.485] store, you know? [01:43:23.485 – 01:43:25.685] They don't, don't know you got integrity unless you get them there. [01:43:25.685 – 01:43:28.585] And so, which is what we do with our groceries. [01:43:28.585 – 01:43:30.225] It's part of that primary purpose. [01:43:30.225 – 01:43:32.265] They, uh… [01:43:32.265 – 01:43:39.625] I'll tell you the other thing that does for me that it, it kinda defines a little bit about my priorities. [01:43:39.625 – 01:43:44.605] Uh, I'm a, I'm a spiritual guy. [01:43:44.605 – 01:43:48.045] I'm not, I'm not, I'm not highly religious. [01:43:48.045 – 01:43:49.625] I'm, I'm not a ritual type of guy. [01:43:49.625 – 01:43:51.345] I belong to a church.

[01:43:51.345 – 01:43:54.385] Uh, we're, we, we belong to the Methodist Church. [01:43:54.385 – 01:43:58.045] Now, they don't know that d-down at the church much. [01:43:58.045 – 01:44:03.285] Uh, they, They, they get a check from us every once in a while. [01:44:03.285 – 01:44:03.965] Send us the money. [01:44:03.965 – 01:44:07.265] And, and Methodists change ministers often. [01:44:07.265 – 01:44:08.585] I, I mean, they don't wear out. [01:44:08.585 – 01:44:10.525] We just rotate them just like we do in AA. [01:44:10.525 – 01:44:15.545] And, uh, a-and I, I never do know we get a new one till he comes to see me. [01:44:15.545 – 01:44:22.605] And so they'll always come 'cause they wanna know who's sending the money and why they sending it.

[01:44:22.605 – 01:44:24.365] You know, so they'll always come see me. [01:44:24.365 – 01:44:26.025] They know my name's on the book. [01:44:26.025 – 01:44:33.125] And so they'll always come in, and, uh, I'm, I'm kind of what they call a buzzard member. [01:44:33.125 – 01:44:39.815] I, I go to church when somebody dies- …or they go, or they're eating something, you know? [01:44:39.815 – 01:44:43.985] So, and so they, so they know that. [01:44:43.985 – 01:44:49.185] And so they'll come see me and, and it's always a kind of an interesting conversation. [01:44:49.185 – 01:44:49.865] We get acquainted. [01:44:49.865 – 01:44:54.525] They say, "How come we never see you?" Well, that's a great opening.

[01:44:54.525 – 01:45:00.865] So I tell them that, uh, about every Sunday of my life, I'm doing what you do, just a different way. [01:45:00.865 – 01:45:04.665] You know, I got a different deal, and I always tell them what I'm doing, uh, uh, while doing AA. [01:45:04.665 – 01:45:06.005] I have never… [01:45:06.005 – 01:45:10.265] I've welcomed many, many ministers and, uh, kissed a few goodbye. [01:45:10.265 – 01:45:14.725] Never had a single one to even pose a question about that. [01:45:14.725 – 01:45:16.285] Not a single one. [01:45:16.285 – 01:45:22.425] You know, it's a primary purpose, and when they understand that, wouldn't I look ridiculous leading the choir?

[01:45:22.425 – 01:45:25.385] Well, I mean, you, you never heard me in the shower. [01:45:25.385 – 01:45:29.505] But believe me, I would look ridiculous leading the choir or… [01:45:29.505 – 01:45:32.125] I mean, that's, you know, I've got a primary purpose. [01:45:32.125 – 01:45:37.245] And so when I'm doing something on Sunday, I'm doing exactly what I think God would have me to do. [01:45:37.245 – 01:45:39.905] And, and so there's no conflict with that, you know. [01:45:39.905 – 01:45:43.245] And so, you know, those are important things, but I've gotta keep… [01:45:43.245 – 01:45:48.225] My purpose is to be of service and not to serve me.

[01:45:48.225 – 01:45:56.464] And so it helps me to sort of get my priorities so that there's no conflict or uneasiness about, about what I do. [01:45:56.464 – 01:45:59.725] Um, the… [01:45:59.725 – 01:46:07.455] Excuse me. [01:46:07.455 – 01:46:10.585] I'll, I'll, I'll leave that one for right now and then move into, to six. [01:46:10.585 – 01:46:11.885] What time do we stop? [01:46:11.885 – 01:46:13.225] Yeah. [01:46:13.225 – 01:46:14.665] Okay. [01:46:14.665 – 01:46:15.425] Yeah. [01:46:15.425 – 01:46:19.405] Six is, uh, six is a, an interesting tradition. [01:46:19.405 – 01:46:29.045] In a way, it's about stuff that it's, it's, let me see what it says. [01:46:29.045 – 01:46:30.965] Just trigger me here just a little bit.

[01:46:30.965 – 01:46:41.085] "An AA group ought never endorse, finance, or lend AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest [01:46:41.085 – 01:46:49.205] problems with money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose." And so that's, it is about stuff. [01:46:49.205 – 01:46:59.825] And it's about letting things become too important to the point that, that, that, that, that they can start to own me, and [01:46:59.825 – 01:47:02.545] they can really e-eat, eat one's lunch. [01:47:02.545 – 01:47:08.565] Uh, I'm, I'm a fortunate guy in, in a lot of ways.

[01:47:08.565 – 01:47:17.805] One of them is that coming up on fifty years, I have never had a financial problem since I've been in AA. [01:47:17.805 – 01:47:19.945] Now, I'm not rich. [01:47:19.945 – 01:47:22.425] Not yet. [01:47:22.425 – 01:47:31.385] And I've been broke, but I've never had a financial problem. [01:47:31.385 – 01:47:39.165] Uh, there's, there's a strange blessing involved when you live with nothing. [01:47:39.165 – 01:47:49.225] And I was blessed, strange blessing, but I was blessed with having no visible means of support for a good while and live by ripping [01:47:49.225 – 01:47:51.795] off people and taking advantage of kind-hearted folks-

[01:47:52.003 – 01:47:52.633] stuff like that. [01:47:52.633 – 01:48:01.212] So I understand about living with nothing, and there's a very good kind of conditioning that comes with that. [01:48:01.212 – 01:48:04.153] Being broke is not a dilemma. [01:48:04.153 – 01:48:06.773] It just means you don't have any money, so you don't buy anything. [01:48:06.773 – 01:48:09.033] A very simple proposition. [01:48:09.033 – 01:48:13.993] And from the day I got here, yeah, I have never had a single problem with money. [01:48:13.993 – 01:48:23.853] S-some– I never have had too much, uh, but I've had enough for everything that's come my way, and so it's never been a big deal.

[01:48:23.853 – 01:48:28.273] I've never had a frantic reaction to any financial situation. [01:48:28.273 – 01:48:39.553] And I be- I think it's because of the spirit of what this tradition's about, that if [01:48:39.553 – 01:48:47.553] I let those financial problems start bugging me, that what they'll do is eat away at, at who I am and what I'm about. [01:48:47.553 – 01:48:49.453] And so they're transitory. [01:48:49.453 – 01:48:50.213] They'll pass. [01:48:50.213 – 01:48:50.633] You know, they… [01:48:50.633 – 01:48:52.713] All it takes is a check, then you're not broke anymore. [01:48:52.713 – 01:48:56.043] So it is not a huge crisis, you know.

[01:48:56.043 – 01:48:58.993] And, uh, I don't buy stuff I can't afford. [01:48:58.993 – 01:49:00.973] Uh, you know, wife thinks I do. [01:49:00.973 – 01:49:03.193] But I but I don't think so. [01:49:03.193 – 01:49:04.753] I bought a motorcycle a while back. [01:49:04.753 – 01:49:06.713] Every old dude needs a motorcycle. [01:49:06.713 – 01:49:10.413] Took me two years to get her to agree. [01:49:10.413 – 01:49:12.733] And she said, "You're crazy. [01:49:12.733 – 01:49:15.393] You're not gonna do that." And I tell you, they, uh… [01:49:15.393 – 01:49:23.173] a little manipulation is in order if, if- if, if, if it serves a good purpose. [01:49:23.173 – 01:49:25.153] And I figured that- …

[01:49:25.153 – 01:49:26.973] that, that was good for my mental health. [01:49:26.973 – 01:49:31.533] You know, I could get out and ride and let the wind blow through my ears and all that kind of stuff. [01:49:31.533 – 01:49:37.373] It's, uh, I, I didn't want her, I didn't want her to just be protesting all the way to the bank. [01:49:37.373 – 01:49:41.853] And I didn't– So I told her, and I was lying about this part. [01:49:41.853 – 01:49:43.433] My lie. [01:49:43.433 – 01:49:45.453] I said, "Look, I'm gonna… [01:49:45.453 – 01:49:52.313] You know I'm gonna buy a motorcycle." She said, "Yeah, I know that." I said, "But…" Now this one really was, I think God told me to do this.

[01:49:52.313 – 01:50:01.973] He s- I said, "I don't have quite enough money." And she said, "How much you need?" Well, that was the magic word. [01:50:01.973 – 01:50:03.073] I said… [01:50:03.073 – 01:50:04.143] I just made up a number. [01:50:04.143 – 01:50:08.893] I said, "Six hundred dollars." Yeah, she said, "All right, I'll give it to you." So she gave me six… [01:50:08.893 – 01:50:11.773] So I brought that motorcycle home. [01:50:11.773 – 01:50:21.793] I said, "Look, our motorcycle is here." She, she said, "What are you talking about, our motorcycle?" I said, "You helped [01:50:21.793 – 01:50:22.553] buy this, dude.

[01:50:22.553 – 01:50:29.033] They don't want to hear anything." So she been at peace fairly, uh, fairly much ever, ever since then. [01:50:29.033 – 01:50:30.813] I don't race or anything. [01:50:30.813 – 01:50:34.233] But, uh, you know, that, that's, um… [01:50:34.233 – 01:50:35.953] I d- We could afford that. [01:50:35.953 – 01:50:37.013] That, that, that's all right. [01:50:37.013 – 01:50:39.233] If, if we hadn't, I don't think I'd have bought it if we couldn't. [01:50:39.233 – 01:50:41.433] She just didn't want to buy a new husband. [01:50:41.433 – 01:50:42.443] Oh. [01:50:42.443 – 01:50:52.473] And, so, so, you know, just having a kind of a balance on that thing, of living within, you know, and, and just having a good time doing it is, is, is not a bad

[01:50:52.473 – 01:50:52.833] deal. [01:50:52.833 – 01:51:02.033] You know, I, I j- I, I have to tell you about the one other God-given thing that I did, and it really, this truly was from God. [01:51:02.033 – 01:51:04.823] Well- … [01:51:04.823 – 01:51:06.173] it seemed like it anyway. [01:51:06.173 – 01:51:10.893] Uh, for a long time, I wanted a pond in my backyard. [01:51:10.893 – 01:51:13.182] That, I mean, that, all, I didn't want much. [01:51:13.182 – 01:51:13.813] I just wanted… [01:51:13.813 – 01:51:14.773] Not the one to drown in. [01:51:14.773 – 01:51:18.783] I just, I was wanting one with a waterfall, you know, 'cause I just love that stuff.

[01:51:18.783 – 01:51:21.053] And, uh, so I kept talking to her about it. [01:51:21.053 – 01:51:21.953] She had no interest. [01:51:21.953 – 01:51:23.553] She grew up in Saskatchewan. [01:51:23.553 – 01:51:27.053] They barely know what water is in, in Saskatchewan. [01:51:27.053 – 01:51:29.473] So she had no interest whatsoever in a waterfall. [01:51:29.473 – 01:51:39.833] And, uh, I wanted her to be a part of it, so, uh, I gave her one for her thirty-third wedding anniversary. [01:51:39.833 – 01:51:49.833] And she, she said, "Good try, big guy." And, but she, well, [01:51:49.833 – 01:51:50.373] it was there. [01:51:50.373 – 01:51:51.593] I mean, the hole was dug.

[01:51:51.593 – 01:51:52.513] You gotta put something in it. [01:51:52.513 – 01:51:57.423] And so she, she, she, she got used to it. [01:51:57.423 – 01:51:59.833] But that's where I do my meditation, you know. [01:51:59.833 – 01:52:07.173] Every morning I go out there, and I sit there, and I talk to the fish a little bit, and then throw 'em some groceries, and then, and then that's where I meditate. [01:52:07.173 – 01:52:12.393] That's where I get it kicked into, to gear to get ready to go out and suit up and, and do God's work.

[01:52:12.393 – 01:52:19.373] And so, um, I just want to say, I think it was really a spiritual mission, and that God just used me to get… [01:52:19.373 – 01:52:23.533] A drunk will rationalize what… [01:52:23.533 – 01:52:24.453] That's… [01:52:24.453 – 01:52:33.493] But, but those, those are kinda, kinda important things that, um, uh, in, in, in terms of you having… [01:52:33.493 – 01:52:35.193] There is some equilibrium in that. [01:52:35.193 – 01:52:38.913] Now she actually likes those fish now, I think. [01:52:38.913 – 01:52:42.153] Well, I found one dead the other day, so I'm not positive about that. [01:52:42.153 – 01:52:44.673] So anyway, it, it's, it's working out.

[01:52:44.673 – 01:52:54.853] There, there are a lot of things that, that we do in the program, collectively speaking, that, that really [01:52:54.853 – 01:52:56.613] k- kind of threaten this, this deal. [01:52:56.613 – 01:53:06.973] And, uh, I give you a couple examples of stuff that, um, that, that, that I run into, is, [01:53:06.973 – 01:53:13.653] uh, there, there's a, there's a group, uh, down near, in a little town in, uh, about an hour or so from where I live. [01:53:13.653 – 01:53:21.193] I went down to speak and they said, "We want you to come down 'cause we got a new bu- new building where we meet." I said, "Okay, great.

[01:53:21.193 – 01:53:24.133] I look forward to seeing it." So I go down. [01:53:24.133 – 01:53:28.213] Now this is a little old podunk redneck town in North Carolina. [01:53:28.213 – 01:53:35.733] So I go down and, and they've got a beautiful building on the 13th green of the golf course at the country club. [01:53:35.733 – 01:53:40.573] And I looked at that and I said, "Oh, whoa, now wait a minute, man. [01:53:40.573 – 01:53:42.953] Something's wrong here. [01:53:42.953 – 01:53:49.633] I mean, this just doesn't fit." So I walked in and they greeted me and said, "Let us tell you about the building." I said, "No, no.

[01:53:49.633 – 01:53:52.303] No, don't tell me anything about the building. [01:53:52.303 – 01:53:53.633] I see it. [01:53:53.633 – 01:54:04.129] You can tell me where the restroom is, but don't tell me where this thing came from." Because if you do, then I'm an accessory after the fact of something illegal. [01:54:04.129 – 01:54:07.809] I mean, I, I know this doesn't just happen out of a collection plate. [01:54:07.809 – 01:54:12.729] And so, you know, it's, it's a, it's a delicate balancing act. [01:54:12.729 – 01:54:17.809] And, and there's been all around this country, and it's not peculiar to that one town.

[01:54:17.809 – 01:54:27.889] All around this country, there's been an awful lot of people who've put together some sort of funding to get buildings to accommodate [01:54:27.889 – 01:54:29.849] sort of public service places. [01:54:29.849 – 01:54:31.949] That's the rationale. [01:54:31.949 – 01:54:35.029] And one of those public services, AA. [01:54:35.029 – 01:54:36.829] But we're not a public service. [01:54:36.829 – 01:54:39.509] You know, we're a self-supporting group of drunks. [01:54:39.509 – 01:54:45.869] And, and, and so what that is, is a delicate little tap dance around the principles. [01:54:45.869 – 01:54:50.569] And, and it's really creates a hairy s- situation. [01:54:50.569 – 01:55:01.309] But being technically correct does not make it ethically sound, doesn't make it come

[01:55:01.309 – 01:55:03.189] together around the principle. [01:55:03.189 – 01:55:12.409] And, and I believe that the spirit of the tradition is more important than the fact of the tradition because it is about a principle. [01:55:12.409 – 01:55:22.809] It's about our– that we quit this ripping off stuff, and that we become self-supporting, that we carry our weight, that we're not depending on [01:55:22.809 – 01:55:25.268] somebody to create a welfare state for us. [01:55:25.268 – 01:55:29.569] God knows, people like me did enough of that before they got here. [01:55:29.569 – 01:55:31.649] I don't need to do that anymore.

[01:55:31.649 – 01:55:40.769] And so that, that whole business of, of skirting around those traditions are, are fraught with peril. [01:55:40.769 – 01:55:45.329] Uh, I, I could give you 100 stories like that, that they're troubling. [01:55:45.329 – 01:55:55.389] I got a guy I sponsor right now that, um, I, I took him on a while back, and he's, he's sort of caught in a web of his own making, having [01:55:55.389 – 01:55:56.609] to do with something like that. [01:55:56.609 – 01:56:04.789] And I haven't just, just said, "Get out of there," because he was the, the leader of the effort to put that thing in place.

[01:56:04.789 – 01:56:14.809] And as I understand his conflict of being caught there, but I've already told him, I said, "Man, that's wrong as two left feet." And, and so we gotta– We– I don't know exactly how we're [01:56:14.809 – 01:56:16.869] gonna get him extricated, but he gotta come out of there. [01:56:16.869 – 01:56:26.269] And, um, so it's, it's, it's, it's violating important principles that take the integrity of what we are, who we are. [01:56:26.269 – 01:56:36.489] Our whole notion of self-support is skewed when we start to do this kind of thing, and what we do is sell our soul in the process, which is what the tradition is all about.

[01:56:36.489 – 01:56:41.789] And, uh, it's a, it's a real, real tricky, tricky kind of a thing. [01:56:41.789 – 01:56:44.929] I, I'll give you one o-other example how it can… [01:56:44.929 – 01:56:47.619] You know, y-you hear what that said. [01:56:47.619 – 01:56:56.689] It sounds like it's about business, and it is about business, but it's about the business of integrity more than it is about the business of bookkeeping, you know, this kind of thing. [01:56:56.689 – 01:56:59.129] I'll give you an example. [01:56:59.129 – 01:57:05.449] I had a guy one time that was, um, it was…

[01:57:05.449 – 01:57:06.689] I, I met him one time. [01:57:06.689 – 01:57:16.689] Didn't know him, but, but he s- he asked me, he said, "Will you come and speak at my anniversary?" And I said, "Well, sure, I will if I [01:57:16.689 – 01:57:18.049] can." It was in the next state over. [01:57:18.049 – 01:57:28.409] I said, "I will if I can." Well, he called me, and he said, "Okay, go…" [01:57:28.409 – 01:57:28.509] What? [01:57:28.509 – 01:57:30.029] Something's in my drink. [01:57:30.029 – 01:57:31.649] A grape, a grape seed. [01:57:31.649 – 01:57:33.609] No, but… [01:57:33.609 – 01:57:36.049] Well, I get rid of it. [01:57:36.049 – 01:57:46.649] So he, he, he, he called me, and I said, "Well, when is it?" And he told me, and I said, "I'm sorry, but I've got a commitment on that day."

[01:57:46.649 – 01:57:51.549] And he said, "Well, you told me you'd come." I said, "Well, my God, man, I didn't give you an e- endless calendar. [01:57:51.549 – 01:57:56.309] I mean, you gotta have a date certain." And, uh, he said, "Well, no, no, no, you've gotta come. [01:57:56.309 – 01:57:57.769] You promised me," and all that stuff. [01:57:57.769 – 01:58:07.889] And I said, "Well, I'm sorry, I can't do it." Now, that day, in fact, we were talking about somebody at a break, we were talking about somebody had to go, minor little thing, his son's getting

[01:58:07.889 – 01:58:08.869] married this afternoon. [01:58:08.869 – 01:58:09.478] Ah. [01:58:09.478 – 01:58:12.069] And he's gonna put that over being here with me. [01:58:12.069 – 01:58:17.049] And so, but, you know, those priorities count, eh? [01:58:17.049 – 01:58:21.449] You know, with those, those, we have to set our priorities and, and, and honor our commitments. [01:58:21.449 – 01:58:27.969] And, and so this guy is just dead set that, that he's gonna have me. [01:58:27.969 – 01:58:33.429] And my commitment that day was my son… [01:58:33.429 – 01:58:38.849] I don't know if you do it in California, but my son was in what they call the Pine Box Derby.

[01:58:39.991 – 01:58:41.431] Yeah, okay, you do it too then. [01:58:41.431 – 01:58:46.111] But all it is, is a place where a father builds a car and the son takes credit. [01:58:46.111 – 01:58:55.021] So, so we built one, and, uh, and he was in the state finals with that thing. [01:58:55.021 – 01:58:57.051] Scooted down the thing. [01:58:57.051 – 01:58:59.931] I had promised him I'd be with him. [01:58:59.931 – 01:59:01.851] Well, that's a commitment. [01:59:01.851 – 01:59:06.591] And this guy's saying, "You gotta come." He's, he's… [01:59:06.591 – 01:59:08.611] And so he said… [01:59:08.611 – 01:59:13.151] Now you talk about s-s-s-self-will. [01:59:13.151 – 01:59:17.791] This, this guy said, "You gotta come." I said, "I'm sorry, but I just can't do it.

[01:59:17.791 – 01:59:19.611] I don't have time to get down there. [01:59:19.611 – 01:59:29.751] I'll be back in the evening, but I don't have time." And he said, "Well, let, let me see what I can do." So he called me back a little while later, and he said, "Can you be at the Southern Pines Airport at six o'clock?" [01:59:29.751 – 01:59:33.731] I said, "Yeah, I can." And he said, "All right. [01:59:33.731 – 01:59:37.091] Okay, I'll see you then." So I go out there. [01:59:37.091 – 01:59:40.711] You would've thought the president was coming.

[01:59:40.711 – 01:59:42.511] This, this was before 911. [01:59:42.511 – 01:59:48.351] And they had the doors open at the airport, you know, just like some VIP's coming. [01:59:48.351 – 01:59:51.411] And so I come in, they got the doors open, I'm right out. [01:59:51.411 – 01:59:54.291] We're sitting out there with a helicopter. [01:59:54.291 – 01:59:55.631] You mentioned a helicopter. [01:59:55.631 – 01:59:59.010] I said I'd had an experience, it reminded me of that. [01:59:59.010 – 02:00:03.411] Now, here's a helicopter out there running like we're going to Iraq or something. [02:00:03.411 – 02:00:12.671] And, and I said, "Oh my God." So I got on that thing, and we went just like a pogo stick, just hopping down that d-stupid thing.

[02:00:12.671 – 02:00:16.831] When I, when I got out of there, I was still shaking when I got to the podium. [02:00:16.831 – 02:00:18.941] I just, I just couldn't get settled down. [02:00:18.941 – 02:00:20.911] And we got it done. [02:00:20.911 – 02:00:26.381] And I'm thinking, "Man, how did I get into this circus act?" And, uh, so we got done. [02:00:26.381 – 02:00:28.291] Next morning we started back. [02:00:28.291 – 02:00:31.251] I didn't realize it, but he crashed the helicopter. [02:00:31.251 – 02:00:32.491] I didn't know that. [02:00:32.491 – 02:00:34.451] I mean, it, it come down and boom. [02:00:34.451 – 02:00:42.111] And I said, "Why'd you slam dunk this thing?" And he said, "We didn't land, man, we crashed." And I said, that thing had a…

[02:00:42.111 – 02:00:44.761] Anyway, we settled down and not too gently, but we settled down. [02:00:44.761 – 02:00:46.611] Got another plane, got back. [02:00:46.611 – 02:00:51.211] Well, if you see where this picture's going. [02:00:51.211 – 02:00:56.991] We, we got to the airport and, and I got off the plane, and he handed me an envelope. [02:00:56.991 – 02:01:01.011] And I said, "What is that?" He said, "Just a thank you card." And I said, "Okay, fine." Stuck it in my pocket. [02:01:01.011 – 02:01:04.171] I got home, it had a bunch of money in the envelope. [02:01:04.171 – 02:01:06.571] God knows…

[02:01:06.571 – 02:01:07.591] I mean, I flew hot. [02:01:07.591 – 02:01:09.641] And I c- I called him. [02:01:09.641 – 02:01:17.440] Soon as I gave him time to get home, I told him, I said, "Look, Jack," that wasn't his name, but I said, "Look, Jack." "We don't do that stuff at AA. [02:01:17.440 – 02:01:18.651] What's your address? [02:01:18.651 – 02:01:19.551] This is coming back. [02:01:19.551 – 02:01:25.371] Don't you ever do that to me or anybody else." That's prostitution. [02:01:25.371 – 02:01:26.251] You know, that… [02:01:26.251 – 02:01:27.891] My God, man. [02:01:27.891 – 02:01:29.251] You know, I'm not for sale. [02:01:29.251 – 02:01:31.191] You know, uh, uh, that's what it is.

[02:01:31.191 – 02:01:33.391] And, and so what an insult. [02:01:33.391 – 02:01:34.921] And so I sent that stuff back. [02:01:34.921 – 02:01:40.251] And, uh, I probably don't need to tell you that that was his last anniversary. [02:01:40.251 – 02:01:41.431] That… [02:01:41.431 – 02:01:51.891] Well, I mean, my God, anybody that's that, that's that willful and headstrong and ego-driven, that, that, that you gotta have what you want when you want it, there's no way you're gonna survive. [02:01:51.891 – 02:01:53.771] I mean, that was just a matter of time. [02:01:53.771 – 02:01:55.071] And, uh, so it happened. [02:01:55.071 – 02:01:58.051] But, but, but principles count.

[02:01:58.051 – 02:02:03.371] And, and I can't just, just ignore principles and expect my life to do well. [02:02:03.371 – 02:02:13.431] And so little stuff like this me-means an awful lot a-about the integrity of the, of, of, of, of carrying our weight and [02:02:13.431 – 02:02:16.651] not trying to buy our way and thinking that money's gonna do everything. [02:02:16.651 – 02:02:19.511] That money's a great thing, there's nothing wrong with it. [02:02:19.511 – 02:02:29.511] But if I get to the point that I've got enough that it robs me, that, that I'm owned by what I have, then I've let

[02:02:29.511 – 02:02:32.111] that thing get in the way of my own spiritual development. [02:02:32.111 – 02:02:42.151] And, and so it's awfully important to me to have some perspective about this thing and not get obsessed with how much I've got and, you know, how big my house is and all this kind of [02:02:42.151 – 02:02:42.431] stuff. [02:02:42.431 – 02:02:46.571] That is just a, a kind of a tricky kind of place. [02:02:46.571 – 02:02:49.471] The, um… [02:02:49.471 – 02:02:53.071] Oh, I was looking at the wrong place here. [02:02:53.071 – 02:02:53.651] Oh, here. [02:02:53.651 – 02:03:05.271] Okay. [02:03:05.271 – 02:03:05.811] What… [02:03:05.811 – 02:03:08.611] Are we on s- We, are we at this, are we on six now?

[02:03:08.611 – 02:03:10.150] Is that- Yeah. [02:03:10.150 – 02:03:10.331] Huh? [02:03:10.331 – 02:03:12.141] Fifteen more minutes. [02:03:12.141 – 02:03:12.541] Fifteen more minutes. [02:03:12.541 – 02:03:12.911] Okay. [02:03:12.911 – 02:03:13.671] All right. [02:03:13.671 – 02:03:16.771] Well, uh, that, that whole bit is about this. [02:03:16.771 – 02:03:26.891] I, I'll tell you one other thing that, that has to do with, with, uh, this tradition in a way about how [02:03:26.891 – 02:03:29.531] it can be a barrier to recovery. [02:03:29.531 – 02:03:37.591] I, I, I got a 12-step call a few years ago, and I, I knew the address. [02:03:37.591 – 02:03:38.291] It was, uh… [02:03:38.291 – 02:03:41.571] Where I live is adjacent to Pinehurst. [02:03:41.571 – 02:03:46.251] Uh, we're the low-rent district, and Pinehurst is the high-rent district.

[02:03:46.251 – 02:03:50.671] That's, uh, home of a great golf mecca and a wonderful place. [02:03:50.671 – 02:03:52.111] It's, uh, just, just great. [02:03:52.111 – 02:03:54.351] I go over and visit and act rich every once in a while. [02:03:54.351 – 02:03:57.171] And, uh, it's a super, super place. [02:03:57.171 – 02:04:05.011] So I got a, a phone call and went over there, and this guy lived in a, in a big, big mansion over right, right by the club. [02:04:05.011 – 02:04:09.451] And, and, uh, I mean, this was, was high-rent district and deep pockets. [02:04:09.451 – 02:04:10.651] There was no question about that.

[02:04:10.651 – 02:04:12.491] So I go in. [02:04:12.491 – 02:04:15.711] I carried a guy with me that was fairly new in the program. [02:04:15.711 – 02:04:18.251] And so we went in to see this fella, and he's… [02:04:18.251 – 02:04:21.351] It's the only time on a 12-step call I've ever been welcomed this way. [02:04:21.351 – 02:04:23.591] He had on a smoking jacket. [02:04:23.591 – 02:04:27.591] He wasn't smoking, but he had on this jacket, you know? [02:04:27.591 – 02:04:29.571] Uh, boy, I always thought about that. [02:04:29.571 – 02:04:30.491] When I was drinking A.W. [02:04:30.491 – 02:04:36.671] Harper, and I'd see that guy with the cane and the top hat, that's sort of who I visualized myself being.

[02:04:36.671 – 02:04:43.131] And so here he is, smoking jacket, had a Sinatra CD playing on the stereo system. [02:04:43.131 – 02:04:47.811] And I like old Blue Eyes, so I just sort of sat down and listened a minute to see what he's doing. [02:04:47.811 – 02:04:53.327] And he said, "You want me to tell you about myself?" I said, "Why don't you do that? [02:04:53.327 – 02:05:03.567] That'd be interesting." And, uh, and so he said, uh, he said, "Well, I got out of a treatment [02:05:03.567 – 02:05:09.647] center," just named some days, uh, not too long ago, "and they took me for thirty thousand dollars.

[02:05:09.647 – 02:05:14.807] And, uh, I've talked to every expert in the country. [02:05:14.807 – 02:05:17.207] I've been to treatment more times than I can count. [02:05:17.207 – 02:05:27.227] And, uh, the last guy that did what you're doing now ripped me off for three hundred thousand dollars." And, [02:05:27.227 – 02:05:31.347] uh, so he gave me his resume of, of piccadillies and failures. [02:05:31.347 – 02:05:41.447] And, and so he got through running it all down, and he said, "What do you think you could tell me that I haven't already heard?" It's a good

[02:05:41.447 – 02:05:44.307] question, isn't it, for a guy that can buy the world. [02:05:44.307 – 02:05:51.687] And he was head of an international corporation that, that will remain unnamed. [02:05:51.687 – 02:05:53.807] But, but I mean, he's asking a question. [02:05:53.807 – 02:05:56.567] You know, he could buy a fleet of, of, of limousines. [02:05:56.567 – 02:05:58.627] He could buy a hospital if he wanted. [02:05:58.627 – 02:05:59.607] He could buy whatever he wanted. [02:05:59.607 – 02:06:06.127] He said, "What can you tell me that I haven't already heard?" And I said, "Well, probably nothing. [02:06:06.127 – 02:06:09.487] But I'll tell you two things that I want you to know.

[02:06:09.487 – 02:06:12.887] He and I are here because we love you. [02:06:12.887 – 02:06:14.607] We don't know you, but we love you. [02:06:14.607 – 02:06:21.727] And I wouldn't sell you thirty minutes of my time for what I'm doing for three hundred, three hundred thousand bucks. [02:06:21.727 – 02:06:24.227] It's not for sale." Yeah. [02:06:24.227 – 02:06:27.587] That old boy just quietened right down. [02:06:27.587 – 02:06:28.707] He quietened right down. [02:06:28.707 – 02:06:35.047] Now, that wasn't the most profound thing he's ever heard, but it was the heart of the matter. [02:06:35.047 – 02:06:38.707] He died sober a good many years later.

[02:06:38.707 – 02:06:48.767] So, you know, that's, I think what's important when I start thinking about money, property, prestige, what does [02:06:48.767 – 02:06:51.687] it do to, to my spiritual principle? [02:06:51.687 – 02:06:54.147] What does it do to my primary purpose? [02:06:54.147 – 02:07:00.287] And when I let that be a barrier, a hindrance in what I'm doing, that's a price I don't want to pay. [02:07:00.287 – 02:07:10.367] It's so awfully important that I not get dazzled by that, nor try to dazzle somebody else with it, that, that I've got one thing to off- to offer, and that's the, the

[02:07:10.367 – 02:07:12.507] experience of, of, of my own life. [02:07:12.507 – 02:07:22.487] So it's, um, an easy thing to get into, and you've probably seen as many as I have. [02:07:22.487 – 02:07:27.647] Well, I think it's the thing we were talking about earlier, that, that it's very important about how we handle it. [02:07:27.647 – 02:07:31.807] And, uh, that we handle it with, with some consideration and care. [02:07:31.807 – 02:07:34.247] One is to make known that we're a closed meeting. [02:07:34.247 – 02:07:44.217] And, you know, if there's a chronic violation of that thing, uh, like a facility or something like that, just like we were talking about, go, go and meet with the people, let them know what it is.

[02:07:44.217 – 02:07:54.467] On, on an individual basis, I always find it best to take the person to a separate room and have a, have a private [02:07:54.467 – 02:07:55.047] talk with them. [02:07:55.047 – 02:07:57.027] Not get into embarrassment. [02:07:57.027 – 02:08:02.887] I'd, I'll give you an example of a wild case, but, but I think it makes a point in a way that… [02:08:02.887 – 02:08:08.507] We had a guy one night in a group, a guy, brought a fellow over to me who was just jumping. [02:08:08.507 – 02:08:10.827] You know, you could tell he was just coming off crack or something.

[02:08:10.827 – 02:08:13.007] And, uh, he went wild. [02:08:13.007 – 02:08:16.847] And so he brought him over, and he said, "I can't do anything with this dude. [02:08:16.847 – 02:08:22.947] Will you talk to him?" I said, I said, "All right, if you will hold him, I'll talk to him." And so he, I mean, he was really dancing. [02:08:22.947 – 02:08:26.547] And it was obvious that I couldn't get anything to him that way there. [02:08:26.547 – 02:08:30.687] And so I, I– nothing un- I mean, nothing inappropriate here, but I took him out in the alley.

[02:08:30.687 – 02:08:35.847] And, uh, so we go out there so we could just talk, and I could contain him. [02:08:35.847 – 02:08:36.517] Mm-hmm. [02:08:36.517 – 02:08:40.807] And so, so I said, "Now, look, you know, we've got a number of meetings." Told him what they were. [02:08:40.807 – 02:08:43.207] And you literally did have to hold him. [02:08:43.207 – 02:08:43.987] He was just jumping. [02:08:43.987 – 02:08:47.087] And, and I said, "Here's what we got. [02:08:47.087 – 02:08:53.007] Now, you're– I would encourage you to go to a newcomer meeting." He said, "I want to go with you." And I said, "Well, I'm going to a closed meeting.

[02:08:53.007 – 02:08:53.706] Are you a drunk? [02:08:53.706 – 02:08:59.767] Are you an alcoholic?" He said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." He said, "But I've– and I had been doing some other stuff, too." I said, "That's fine. [02:08:59.767 – 02:09:00.407] That's your problem. [02:09:00.407 – 02:09:03.967] Are you a drunk?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "All right, you can go with me. [02:09:03.967 – 02:09:08.907] One condition, that we go in that group, and you sit down. [02:09:08.907 – 02:09:15.207] Don't say anything." Well, I mean, that's wishful thinking when you got somebody. [02:09:15.207 – 02:09:21.277] And I, and I tell him to sit right beside me, and I said, "Don't say anything." Well, the guy got the big book.

[02:09:21.277 – 02:09:21.617] We went in. [02:09:21.617 – 02:09:22.627] It was a big book discussion. [02:09:22.627 – 02:09:25.857] The guy got the big book out, and he said, "Want me to read?" [02:09:26.508 – 02:09:27.928] I said, "No, he didn't want you to read. [02:09:27.928 – 02:09:36.308] He wants you to sit here and be quiet." And so, she says, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you." Read, read one paragraph, and then this clown starts again. [02:09:36.308 – 02:09:40.008] And I mean, I had to literally grab him and pull him down. [02:09:40.008 – 02:09:48.868] And I don't like to do that much, but I said, "Shut up." And so sometimes you gotta go to drastic lengths.

[02:09:48.868 – 02:09:50.988] It's by what you got in front of you. [02:09:50.988 – 02:09:58.768] You know, and if, if you got somebody that's a reasonable kind of a person that's, that can track information, you know, normally there's a case like that. [02:09:58.768 – 02:10:01.848] You know, just some, some consideration and courtesy and that. [02:10:01.848 – 02:10:04.808] But importantly is to not do it publicly. [02:10:04.808 – 02:10:11.348] Because when you do it publicly, somebody gonna win, somebody gonna lose, and you just don't wanna do it that way. [02:10:11.348 – 02:10:15.108] So just a lot more thoughtful to take the guy, take him out of sight.

[02:10:15.108 – 02:10:19.508] And, uh, it's– You can't force conformity. [02:10:19.508 – 02:10:21.068] You know, we don't have room. [02:10:21.068 – 02:10:22.248] We don't have police department. [02:10:22.248 – 02:10:24.928] So we gotta, we gotta handle it through reason. [02:10:24.928 – 02:10:30.588] And, uh, and most people, w-we rarely have anybody that bucks at that. [02:10:30.588 – 02:10:34.668] A, a lot of people, just like I was saying earlier, really don't know. [02:10:34.668 – 02:10:36.368] They really don't know. [02:10:36.368 – 02:10:42.848] And you get a lot of meetings that are so ill-formed that you can't tell what kind of meeting it is. [02:10:42.848 – 02:10:44.608] You don't know whether it's open or closed.

[02:10:44.608 – 02:10:47.628] It, it– Or you sometimes don't even know what fellowship it is. [02:10:47.628 – 02:10:48.888] It really gets goofy. [02:10:48.888 – 02:10:53.928] And so, yeah, I think that if you're trying to hold a meeting, the word gets around. [02:10:53.928 – 02:10:59.228] And, um, we get an awful lot of newcomers in our group. [02:10:59.228 – 02:11:03.788] And, but what we, and you may wanna do that in time, but we added that newcomer group. [02:11:03.788 – 02:11:12.108] And man, I'm telling you, that's been a lifesaver, not only to us, but to help people humanely get settled into, to the program where they need to be.

[02:11:12.108 – 02:11:22.188] Uh, so I, I think just like anything, it's, it's a matter of handling it with care and consideration and trying to com-communicate a helpful thing rather than some [02:11:22.188 – 02:11:25.008] accusatory kind of banishment, you know, that… [02:11:25.008 – 02:11:27.588] You know, I, I think that's where we have to come short of. [02:11:27.588 – 02:11:30.948] So it's, uh, good luck. [02:11:30.948 – 02:11:31.808] You know, good luck. [02:11:31.808 – 02:11:34.308] And I, and I appreciate the fact you're doing closed meetings. [02:11:34.308 – 02:11:38.348] I also appreciate open meetings very much. [02:11:38.348 – 02:11:38.988] Yeah. [02:11:38.988 – 02:11:43.748] I tell you one of the things doesn't exactly relate to what I was talking about, but I may not think about it later.

[02:11:43.748 – 02:11:53.768] Among the things that's bothersome to me is in this proliferation of sort of one-dimensional meetings, you know, the therapy or, [02:11:53.768 – 02:11:55.768] or whatever that Vic was talking about. [02:11:55.768 – 02:12:05.828] In these one-dimensional meetings about me and me, me, me, most of those are not family-friendly. [02:12:05.828 – 02:12:08.468] It doesn't mean that they're antagonistic. [02:12:08.468 – 02:12:10.068] It just shuts out the family. [02:12:10.068 – 02:12:20.748] And, you know, we say almost a party line that alcoholim– alcoholism is a family illness, and therefore [02:12:20.748 – 02:12:23.348] recovery is a family matter. [02:12:23.348 – 02:12:32.628] Well, we really call serious question to that when we lock out the family from the place where recovery happens, you know.

[02:12:32.628 – 02:12:37.648] I, I think there's something very, very important about an open meeting. [02:12:37.648 – 02:12:40.608] Well, anywhere, there's open… [02:12:40.608 – 02:12:46.528] There's, there's, if my wife and I were in one Thursday night, we shared that experience together. [02:12:46.528 – 02:12:47.408] That's important. [02:12:47.408 – 02:12:53.588] Um, the– It's important, like, for an ear- a couple in early sobriety. [02:12:53.588 – 02:12:57.328] You know, there's an awful lot of uncertainty about where to go. [02:12:57.328 – 02:12:59.488] What do you do for a social life? [02:12:59.488 – 02:13:07.868] You know, an open speaker meeting is a wonderful outing where you can go out and listen to a speaker, grab a hamburger, whatever you want to do.

[02:13:07.868 – 02:13:14.648] You know, but we've, we've drift away when you've got that little one-dimensional gathering where drunks are talking with each other. [02:13:14.648 – 02:13:17.088] How does the family even get hold of it? [02:13:17.088 – 02:13:21.648] Uh, I, I tell you what that means in real life is, um… [02:13:21.648 – 02:13:28.748] Well, well, I'll give you this, this example of… [02:13:28.748 – 02:13:32.888] I, I was in a state over on the East Coast a while back at a state convention. [02:13:32.888 – 02:13:38.188] There were, there were, there were thirty-two hundred AA members at the con-convention.

[02:13:38.188 – 02:13:39.968] Now listen to these numbers. [02:13:39.968 – 02:13:49.348] There were two hundred and forty something Al-Anons and forty-one or two Alateens. [02:13:49.348 – 02:13:58.448] You tell me how you would, how you would demonstrate a family program in, in some numbers like that. [02:13:58.448 – 02:13:59.048] Yeah. [02:13:59.048 – 02:14:02.048] And so I, I think we reap that, you know. [02:14:02.048 – 02:14:10.788] When we, when we shut the family out, you know, by just having closed meetings for us, you know, what about the family? [02:14:10.788 – 02:14:20.728] What about the family that has to adjust to this strange new phenomenon called recovery, where we look almost as bizarre as we did drunk, you know?

[02:14:20.728 – 02:14:25.888] With everything we do is a sacred mission from God, you know? [02:14:25.888 – 02:14:29.788] Don't dare dispute me with mowing the lawn. [02:14:29.788 – 02:14:30.408] I've got to… [02:14:30.408 – 02:14:33.238] Yeah, yeah. [02:14:33.238 – 02:14:39.768] You know, there's some, there's some real issues involved in that, that, that, that… [02:14:39.768 – 02:14:41.348] Anyway, we, we… [02:14:41.348 – 02:14:43.568] You know what I'm talking about. [02:14:43.568 – 02:14:47.008] Yeah, good luck with that thing. [02:14:47.008 – 02:14:49.388] I, I'll be glad to hear when you add that second meeting. [02:14:49.388 – 02:14:52.828] Yeah. [02:14:52.828 – 02:14:54.128] Uh-oh. [02:14:54.128 – 02:14:56.668] Debbie has spoken. [02:14:56.668 – 02:14:59.868] Where– What are we gonna do? [02:14:59.868 – 02:15:00.988] Tell them what we're gonna do.

[02:15:00.988 – 02:15:02.128] Wait. [02:15:02.128 – 02:15:02.728] Go ahead. [02:15:02.728 – 02:15:05.368] Uh, we're gonna have lunch. [02:15:05.368 – 02:15:08.848] We'll take one more question real quick, and then we're gonna break for lunch. [02:15:08.848 – 02:15:09.608] Okay. [02:15:09.608 – 02:15:11.348] Hi, I'm Maggie, an alcoholic. [02:15:11.348 – 02:15:11.988] Hi, Maggie. [02:15:11.988 – 02:15:13.768] Actually, I have two questions. [02:15:13.768 – 02:15:23.868] But my first que- question is, um, on an open AA, um, meeting, what do you think [02:15:23.868 – 02:15:29.028] about a non-AA member, an Al-Anon, speaking at the meeting? [02:15:29.028 – 02:15:34.508] I think so much of it that we're gonna do it Monday night in my home group. [02:15:34.508 – 02:15:38.668] We're gonna have a panel demonstrating family program.

[02:15:38.668 – 02:15:42.608] We'll have two AA members and one Al-Anon member, and it's gonna be done in an open meeting. [02:15:42.608 – 02:15:44.088] I think it's highly appropriate. [02:15:44.088 – 02:15:48.668] We do it, and not only would you wouldn't wanna do it as a regular affair, but I think it's appropriate. [02:15:48.668 – 02:15:52.527] At conferences, we do it routinely, you know, where we have Al-Anon speakers. [02:15:52.527 – 02:15:56.408] So I, I, I don't think there's anything out of whack with that whatsoever. [02:15:56.408 – 02:16:02.527] It's, it's a open meeting and, uh, I mean, I've even had non-alcoholics speak at, at, at a meeting.

[02:16:02.527 – 02:16:07.208] Uh, once in a while, we had the minister of the church where we meet one time come by and do a fifteen-minute talk. [02:16:07.208 – 02:16:10.288] Don't turn off any pacemakers. [02:16:10.288 – 02:16:11.888] They got, they got… [02:16:11.888 – 02:16:21.948] Uh, this gal, she, she was over in North Carolina at a conference that we were together down there with Kent, and she is, [02:16:21.948 – 02:16:25.008] she is a real chameleon in a lot of ways. [02:16:25.008 – 02:16:35.008] She, she was, she was Marilyn Monroe Friday night, and then the next night she came down and, uh, she was a French chanteuse

[02:16:35.008 – 02:16:37.868] with a, with a shady kind of side life. [02:16:37.868 – 02:16:41.308] And, and I swear to God, I didn't recognize her. [02:16:41.308 – 02:16:42.868] I've known her for sixty years. [02:16:42.868 – 02:16:48.888] And, uh, well, good while. [02:16:48.888 – 02:16:54.268] And so she came down, and, and she came over to me, and I didn't recognize her. [02:16:54.268 – 02:16:58.848] I mean, she, she started nuzzling me on the neck and whispering all kind of goofy stuff. [02:16:58.848 – 02:17:05.608] I said, "What are you doing?" And then she, she kind of revealed who she was, you know, by laughing.

[02:17:05.608 – 02:17:09.828] But oh, she, she had me all the way. [02:17:09.828 – 02:17:11.028] I guarantee you that. [02:17:11.028 – 02:17:13.348] I was getting ready to report her to my wife. [02:17:13.348 – 02:17:24.348] Well, we, uh, into, [02:17:24.348 – 02:17:27.208] in, in, not, not into action, but into money. [02:17:27.208 – 02:17:33.348] The, um, seventh, the s- the seventh tradition… [02:17:33.348 – 02:17:40.128] It was an interesting thing about, about what you think will resonate with a crowd. [02:17:40.128 – 02:17:50.508] We were starting a, a group with, uh, with, in a minimum custody prison with a bunch of young guys that were basically eighteen to twenty-three, something like that,

[02:17:50.508 – 02:17:52.388] uh, kind of a harebrained period. [02:17:52.388 – 02:17:58.888] And so we were meeting one night, and we were going through different things that are significant in AA. [02:17:58.888 – 02:18:04.748] And one of them, believe it or not, with a fairly new bunch of young guys, was self-support. [02:18:04.748 – 02:18:15.408] And, uh, and I was, um, I wasn't totally amazed, but I was really surprised at how tremendously well that was, uh, received. [02:18:15.408 – 02:18:20.828] And, and because what we were talking about was not so much about paying bills and all this kind of stuff.

[02:18:20.828 – 02:18:29.928] We were talking about the, the vitality of self-support in building a thing called dignity, the thing called dignity. [02:18:29.928 – 02:18:38.828] And, and, um, it was kind of a, a, a, an amazing thing to watch that reaction where guys just got hungrily involved in that. [02:18:38.828 – 02:18:48.928] And, uh, I know when we started to set that up at that prison, I met with the warden and told him that, uh, we wanted to set up some sort of a self-support system with

[02:18:48.928 – 02:18:50.668] a, a collection and that. [02:18:50.668 – 02:18:53.288] And he said, "Why on earth would you do that? [02:18:53.288 – 02:19:03.468] These guys don't have any money." And, uh, I said, "You would be amazed how much dignity you can buy for fifty cents when that's all you got." [02:19:03.468 – 02:19:08.708] So he said, "Yeah, I couldn't agree more," and so we started doing that. [02:19:08.708 – 02:19:11.068] And so that was a kind of an important thing. [02:19:11.068 – 02:19:18.498] This self-support is, um, is, um, an awfully important thing. [02:19:18.498 – 02:19:24.828] It would be nice if we could take credit for it, but, uh, that whole principle came from a, from an…

[02:19:24.828 – 02:19:30.828] And I think everybody here is familiar with the, the story of, you know, how we started to move towards self-support. [02:19:30.828 – 02:19:41.328] When, uh, when, when that early bunch of alcoholics were, were running together in this herd, uh, and really didn't even have formation, organization, [02:19:41.328 – 02:19:43.528] didn't, uh, didn't have a name, really. [02:19:43.528 – 02:19:45.868] You know, the book named the fellowship. [02:19:45.868 – 02:19:54.408] And, and so here was this bunch of guys with some wild-eyed visions of, uh, some huge enterprise that would sweep the world.

[02:19:54.408 – 02:20:01.588] And they, if you remember, they pulled, they pulled some connections and got John D. [02:20:01.588 – 02:20:05.508] Rockefeller and some friends to put together a dinner. [02:20:05.508 – 02:20:09.928] And the whole purpose of the dinner was to put the arm on him for a lot of money. [02:20:09.928 – 02:20:13.458] And, uh, so their– Bill, with his visionary quali- [02:20:13.686 – 02:20:20.286] They already had the hospitals built and, uh, the alcoholics hired and, you know, that whole business done. [02:20:20.286 – 02:20:26.566] And when they got all through with it and succeeded in no fleecing, uh, John D.

[02:20:26.566 – 02:20:36.326] Rockefeller, uh, introduced a legacy that's very important when he said, "Don't you think money will louse this thing up?" And, and, and so true. [02:20:36.326 – 02:20:44.506] You know, that that turn down and that response to that gave us this, this whole notion of self-support. [02:20:44.506 – 02:20:45.906] And i-it was a vital lesson. [02:20:45.906 – 02:20:51.826] Uh, it'd be nice if we heard it a hundred percent, uh, but, but it gave us the principle. [02:20:51.826 – 02:21:02.166] It, it's important to me like it was to those young guys as a, as a, as an individual,

[02:21:02.166 – 02:21:07.846] that the, the self-support is, is important in terms of how I carry my life. [02:21:07.846 – 02:21:17.866] I, I'll tell you what my personal standard is, that when I go to a meeting, I want to contribute at least [02:21:17.866 – 02:21:20.526] as much as I consume, at a minimum. [02:21:20.526 – 02:21:30.345] And that means factoring in how, per– what percentage of the cooling I sucked up, the lights, the h- the building we're meeting in, all that kind of stuff. [02:21:30.345 – 02:21:40.846] Now, I don't do high calculus on that, but that, that is a minimum standard that I want to at least do that to pay my way

[02:21:40.846 – 02:21:43.266] and not be dependent on somebody else. [02:21:43.266 – 02:21:52.286] You know, I made a career, uh, out of using other people and taking advantage of people and freeloading and having somebody else carry my weight. [02:21:52.286 – 02:22:01.586] And, and, and what I, what I paid for that with was losing my dignity and self-respect and, and any kinds of, of redeeming qualities. [02:22:01.586 – 02:22:06.566] And it's so very important that I want to at least carry my weight. [02:22:06.566 – 02:22:12.186] And, uh, so I, I figure out on a, a proportion amount that I think is fair and reasonable.

[02:22:12.186 – 02:22:22.356] Um, now, if I want to go beyond that and make a contribution to our service around the world, [02:22:22.356 – 02:22:23.606] then I'm gonna put in some more. [02:22:23.606 – 02:22:27.606] And, uh, and I want those things to occur. [02:22:27.606 – 02:22:29.946] Yeah, I really want those things to occur. [02:22:29.946 – 02:22:36.526] When somebody writes in to, to headquarters or calls in and says, "We're trying to get something going. [02:22:36.526 – 02:22:40.366] We need some help," uh, I want that to happen. [02:22:40.366 – 02:22:49.886] And because I want that to happen, I wanna be sure that our, our service headquarters is equipped to respond to that request.

[02:22:49.886 – 02:22:53.706] And so I want to contribute something that will help with that expense. [02:22:53.706 – 02:22:55.306] I, I'll give you an example of that. [02:22:55.306 – 02:22:55.926] I had, um… [02:22:55.926 – 02:23:06.906] It's just amazing what you run into, that, that there's just no limit to you think you've just done everything, you've been everywhere, but you just never know. [02:23:06.906 – 02:23:12.886] I got a call from, um, the fellow on the international desk at the general service office. [02:23:12.886 – 02:23:15.226] He's a nice man named, named Doug. [02:23:15.226 – 02:23:16.206] He's really a nice man.

[02:23:16.206 – 02:23:24.746] He– And he got me on the phone, and he said, "Tom, we got a situation I think you might be able to help with." I said, "Well, tell me about it." And what it is… [02:23:24.746 – 02:23:26.446] Now, if you picture this, you know. [02:23:26.446 – 02:23:32.136] Now, here's a guy that's used to just living in a vacuum and then, then taking advantage of people, ripping people off. [02:23:32.136 – 02:23:36.866] Then I found service, really Ken's story in the service. [02:23:36.866 – 02:23:46.946] And so he, he said, "What we got is in the nation of Kenya, uh, down in Africa." He said, "There's a man down there named Michael

[02:23:47.006 – 02:23:50.686] who's caught the spirit, and he's got a vision, and he wants to do something in Kenya. [02:23:50.686 – 02:23:58.406] And he wants to do something particularly in corrections." And so I told him that I knew a guy that might be able to help him some with that stuff. [02:23:58.406 – 02:24:08.426] "Will you let me put him in touch with you?" I said, "You better believe you can, man." I said, "I don't speak Swahili or, or whatever they speak down there." He said, "No, this guy has immaculate

[02:24:08.426 – 02:24:08.886] English. [02:24:08.886 – 02:24:15.726] You, you ain't worry about that." And I haven't got all of this story yet, but his, his, his story, if you, if… [02:24:15.726 – 02:24:16.706] I know Kent's got it. [02:24:16.706 – 02:24:23.986] The April ninety-eight Grapevine has his story, and I just haven't put my hand on that yet, but his story is in that, is in the Grapevine. [02:24:23.986 – 02:24:29.446] And so, now here's a guy, and now I've learned a little bit about the picture. [02:24:29.446 – 02:24:31.326] So we started communicating. [02:24:31.326 – 02:24:35.886] Thank God for email because can you imagine what it costs to call Kenya on a regular basis?

[02:24:35.886 – 02:24:38.706] I would have financial problems. [02:24:38.706 – 02:24:48.626] And so in Kenya, practically everything that exists is in Nairobi, and that's in a very fragile condition. [02:24:48.626 – 02:24:51.116] They've tried to do an intergroup office three times. [02:24:51.116 – 02:24:53.626] It's collapsed all three times just for lack of support. [02:24:53.626 – 02:25:02.186] And so he told me just a little bit about it, and I said, "Well, tell me something about your country, about the, uh, the, uh, the makeup of it. [02:25:02.186 – 02:25:12.326] Tell me about where your correctional facilities are and all that." He said, "Tell– I tell you what, ask me some questions, and it'll make it easier for me to do that." And so I sent him, ironically,

[02:25:12.326 – 02:25:14.586] I can't believe there were twelve questions. [02:25:14.586 – 02:25:17.246] I– Somehow that just seemed like an appropriate number. [02:25:17.246 – 02:25:20.366] And so I think in twelves. [02:25:20.366 – 02:25:25.326] I, I sent him just basically asking him the rudimentary qu-questions of a business. [02:25:25.326 – 02:25:26.786] You know, and that, that's kind of what he's talking about. [02:25:26.786 – 02:25:27.946] How can we get something going there? [02:25:27.946 – 02:25:29.696] You know, how many prisons are there? [02:25:29.696 – 02:25:30.546] Where are they located? [02:25:30.546 – 02:25:32.106] What kind of resource base you got? [02:25:32.106 – 02:25:33.226] You got any kind of support? [02:25:33.226 – 02:25:34.166] Can you afford the things?

[02:25:34.166 – 02:25:35.366] Is there transportation? [02:25:35.366 – 02:25:40.846] Uh, you know, all those questions that would just be obvious questions if you're gonna try to figure out how to start something. [02:25:40.846 – 02:25:43.846] Well, the answer was about what I expected. [02:25:43.846 – 02:25:45.946] Uh, no to all the above. [02:25:45.946 – 02:25:47.766] You know, they– We got nothing. [02:25:47.766 – 02:25:49.606] We got a dream, and that's about it. [02:25:49.606 – 02:25:54.506] And, uh, so we, we talked a little bit about doing some informational stuff, getting acquainted. [02:25:54.506 – 02:25:57.766] And, uh, really fun. [02:25:57.766 – 02:26:01.726] The office, which, uh, which was what brought all this up, and I thought it was great to tell you the story.

[02:26:01.726 – 02:26:06.766] The, uh, the office, when, when they answered him, they sent him a box of material. [02:26:06.766 – 02:26:11.086] And I– now, I want that to happen. [02:26:11.086 – 02:26:13.846] Because I want that to happen, that's why I contribute. [02:26:13.846 – 02:26:17.156] You know, because it's not just to make somebody's office bigger. [02:26:17.156 – 02:26:19.246] It's to get services delivered. [02:26:19.246 – 02:26:23.882] So here I got this guy on the phone, and it was really, it is, it's fascinating right now. [02:26:23.882 – 02:26:26.562] Um, he's a bright man. [02:26:26.562 – 02:26:31.062] And so he started to do some information sessions with the different prisons.

[02:26:31.062 – 02:26:34.482] The administration, man, they were buying into anything he was talking about. [02:26:34.482 – 02:26:37.922] And he said they're all run by the nation of Kenya, and they… [02:26:37.922 – 02:26:39.762] But anyway, a whole bunch of stuff. [02:26:39.762 – 02:26:44.642] And he sent me a picture of an informational meeting. [02:26:44.642 – 02:26:54.902] And here were six hundred Africans sitting in the blazing sun inside a prison in Kenya, and Michael's up there presenting [02:26:54.902 – 02:26:55.762] information. [02:26:55.762 – 02:26:58.402] And it's an interesting comment. [02:26:58.402 – 02:27:02.602] He sent me the picture and said, "Now I got them.

[02:27:02.602 – 02:27:09.522] What do I do with them?" Well, that's a good question. [02:27:09.522 – 02:27:11.202] Man, you got six hundred folk. [02:27:11.202 – 02:27:13.622] And so we just started putting a little something together. [02:27:13.622 – 02:27:17.982] It was just ob– kinda obvious stuff that, you know, how do you separate sheep from goats? [02:27:17.982 – 02:27:20.402] They gave them a little form that, you know, that you fill out. [02:27:20.402 – 02:27:21.042] Are you a drunk? [02:27:21.042 – 02:27:21.712] You know, what do you got? [02:27:21.712 – 02:27:22.042] This. [02:27:22.042 – 02:27:23.302] Six questions on it. [02:27:23.302 – 02:27:24.322] You know, didn't want it to be heavy.

[02:27:24.322 – 02:27:28.702] And they just sit down, sort that, and winnow it down to a group. [02:27:28.702 – 02:27:38.202] And then we set up the, the deal to do a, an eight-week, uh, sort of an introductory program with the ones who were a group, just to get it going, and he would conduct it. [02:27:38.202 – 02:27:47.402] And then the, the next thing, he hadn't got this yet, but next thing I'm gonna ro-ro– uh, recommend to him is rotating teams of people because when… [02:27:47.402 – 02:27:48.402] I mean, they got no money.

[02:27:48.402 – 02:27:50.782] I mean, if they got a car, they can't afford gas. [02:27:50.782 – 02:27:55.662] So somewhere in that mix of people, somebody's gonna have a car. [02:27:55.662 – 02:28:06.062] And so what, what, what I'm gonna suggest that you do is identify that and then get people to rotate the service, so they can ride together and go and take care of those things. [02:28:06.062 – 02:28:07.962] I mean, that– those are simple little things. [02:28:07.962 – 02:28:16.121] But, but the whole point of that is that you, you never know, when you put a, a buck or two or five in the basket, where it's going.

[02:28:16.121 – 02:28:26.562] And so the support system, to me is tremendously important, not only because of meeting our needs, [02:28:26.562 – 02:28:36.952] but making sure that when we say in the fifth tradition that, that we have but one purpose, to carry our message to the alcoholic [02:28:36.952 – 02:28:37.762] who still suffers. [02:28:37.762 – 02:28:41.042] It doesn't say give it to him if he comes to the door. [02:28:41.042 – 02:28:46.082] It says carry to, and that's an active thing. [02:28:46.082 – 02:28:50.122] And that includes Kenya and anywhere else. [02:28:50.122 – 02:28:58.742] And, and my God, here's a whole nation, a whole nation, and here's the opportunity to help kindle something in that nation.

[02:28:58.742 – 02:29:03.062] Who knows how much value it could, it could have. [02:29:03.062 – 02:29:07.322] And we have places all over this world where we think AA is well known. [02:29:07.322 – 02:29:08.342] Good God. [02:29:08.342 – 02:29:12.502] Uh, we are, we are a tiny blip on the radar screen. [02:29:12.502 – 02:29:17.362] Overwhelming majority of people die of this illness never knowing there's a way out. [02:29:17.362 – 02:29:20.882] So a lot of, a lot of work to be done. [02:29:20.882 – 02:29:25.882] And so when we think about that, I like to think a little bit beyond just the collection plate.

[02:29:25.882 – 02:29:28.922] A lot of folks… [02:29:28.922 – 02:29:32.822] As a matter of fact, I'll, I'll go back to that thing with those guys in that minimum custody prison. [02:29:32.822 – 02:29:42.942] When we got through with that, and it was such a s– such a meaningful kind of thing, I, I told the guys, I said, "I wanna tell you something that, um, I'd just like you to think [02:29:42.942 – 02:29:43.182] about. [02:29:43.182 – 02:29:53.262] What we've just finished is that you are probably better informed about our support system and what it does

[02:29:53.262 – 02:30:01.902] than I'd say eighty percent of our membership." Because most of the time when we pass a plate, we'll say, "No dues or fees, but we got expenses. [02:30:01.902 – 02:30:05.422] We gotta buy coffee." You know, this stuff, or pay the rent. [02:30:05.422 – 02:30:12.442] You know, we, we, we t– we, we get at the most obvious and probably the, the least significant. [02:30:12.442 – 02:30:13.282] I mean, they're important. [02:30:13.282 – 02:30:14.062] They gotta be done. [02:30:14.062 – 02:30:19.662] But my God, it leaves out all the vision, you know, of, of what this, what this thing represents.

[02:30:19.662 – 02:30:23.642] And so I told them, I said, "Right now, you, you're well informed. [02:30:23.642 – 02:30:25.302] And who knows? [02:30:25.302 – 02:30:27.642] You may come to my group when you get out. [02:30:27.642 – 02:30:36.942] And when you come, I want you to be a well-informed member because the day you walk in, your vote's as heavy as mine." So that– so, uh, the whole… [02:30:36.942 – 02:30:42.702] You see what I'm talking about, the whole thing about a simple little thing like self-support and what it means. [02:30:42.702 – 02:30:44.362] That it's more than just paying bills.

[02:30:44.362 – 02:30:48.822] It's just about, about making this thing come alive and, and really do something. [02:30:48.822 – 02:30:58.862] Uh, I tell you, I've, I've had a, a lot of, of, of [02:30:58.862 – 02:31:00.632] experiences in this, this thing- [02:31:00.858 – 02:31:01.958] Was, was self-support. [02:31:01.958 – 02:31:07.577] And, uh, I, I, I, I'll tell you one that, uh… [02:31:07.577 – 02:31:12.198] It's funny about, about how we are. [02:31:12.198 – 02:31:14.758] You know, we are the darndest people in the world. [02:31:14.758 – 02:31:22.378] If you make a general request to us, like, "We need more money," you know what'll happen?

[02:31:22.378 – 02:31:23.058] Nothing. [02:31:23.058 – 02:31:30.558] We absolutely do not respond to a general request, and we've gotta be very specific. [02:31:30.558 – 02:31:35.458] Now, I'll give, give one little example on that, and I don't tell it too often 'cause it's a bad reflection on me. [02:31:35.458 – 02:31:36.988] But- … [02:31:36.988 – 02:31:44.478] but back, back when I was real young and had gotten, just had gotten out of that institution and I… [02:31:44.478 – 02:31:47.078] You talk about broke, man, I mean, I'm flat broke. [02:31:47.078 – 02:31:49.578] But I was about like the guy in Kenya.

[02:31:49.578 – 02:31:51.418] I– we gonna do something here. [02:31:51.418 – 02:31:52.598] I don't know what it's gonna be. [02:31:52.598 – 02:32:00.558] But I got the idea that, I didn't even know what it was, but I'd heard the term public meeting. [02:32:00.558 – 02:32:10.618] Well, I thought, "God, that just makes sense that if the folk in this community know there's a vibrant program called AA," never mind that I was the only one at the meeting [02:32:10.618 – 02:32:11.658] a lot of time. [02:32:11.658 – 02:32:16.998] But if they knew there was something called AA, they'd be herding every drunk in the world into the door.

[02:32:16.998 – 02:32:19.218] So I took it on myself. [02:32:19.218 – 02:32:21.258] No group conscious. [02:32:21.258 – 02:32:22.118] No group. [02:32:22.118 – 02:32:30.788] So I took it on myself, and I put together a very large public meeting. [02:32:30.788 – 02:32:34.418] Didn't even know what one was, but I knew what it sounded like. [02:32:34.418 – 02:32:39.238] You're gonna have a meeting and invite public, and so I did that. [02:32:39.238 – 02:32:41.298] Went to every leader in the community. [02:32:41.298 – 02:32:51.618] You talk about promising groceries to getting a crowd, we had seven hundred people show up at that darn thing, and I had a catered

[02:32:51.618 – 02:32:51.898] dinner. [02:32:51.898 – 02:32:55.198] I say I, I had a catered dinner. [02:32:55.198 – 02:32:59.418] Now, man, I was so broke I couldn't have caught a bus out of town. [02:32:59.418 – 02:33:09.578] And, uh, so I knew that any rational human, particularly community leaders, would understand the cost of food. [02:33:09.578 – 02:33:12.498] Yeah, I mean, anybody understands that, you would think. [02:33:12.498 – 02:33:22.548] And, and so I didn't wanna put the arm on anybody and say, "Now it's eight dollars per." I figured everybody would see what they ate and then pro rate their proportionate amount of

[02:33:22.548 – 02:33:23.558] the responsibility. [02:33:23.558 – 02:33:25.458] Well, that's a good idea. [02:33:25.458 – 02:33:28.018] I sent the buckets out. [02:33:28.018 – 02:33:31.838] Forty-seven dollars. [02:33:31.838 – 02:33:36.378] Man, I had many hundreds of dollars out. [02:33:36.378 – 02:33:38.037] And I thought, "My God. [02:33:38.037 – 02:33:42.198] Yeah, I'm gonna go back to jail for doing God's work." Man, they gonna… [02:33:42.198 – 02:33:44.038] They're gonna put the hammer on me. [02:33:44.038 – 02:33:45.678] I didn't know what I was gonna do. [02:33:45.678 – 02:33:47.618] But it's a funny thing. [02:33:47.618 – 02:33:54.118] See, th-there was a specific need that presented itself, and the word got around, and guess what happened? [02:33:54.118 – 02:34:02.878] All the folks around said, "Well, he's dumb, but he means well." And so they bailed me out.

[02:34:02.878 – 02:34:09.238] And you can believe that is the last time I have ever done a one-man show. [02:34:09.238 – 02:34:10.268] You can believe that. [02:34:10.268 – 02:34:13.098] But that's a lonely position when you're in. [02:34:13.098 – 02:34:20.318] But, but the point is that we respond when you know the need, and if it's just a general thing, nothing happens. [02:34:20.318 – 02:34:26.628] And that's why I think it's so important we're doing a collection to, to let folk know what this is. [02:34:26.628 – 02:34:30.098] That it's not just taking care of the rudimentary cost.

[02:34:30.098 – 02:34:32.698] It's a part of what makes our, our apparatus work. [02:34:32.698 – 02:34:34.998] Um, we… [02:34:34.998 – 02:34:37.678] Interesting stuff. [02:34:37.678 – 02:34:39.058] I was down in, uh… [02:34:39.058 – 02:34:43.578] I wanna give you just a couple examples of this stuff about this, this whole self-support business that… [02:34:43.578 – 02:34:46.218] And, and we are funny people. [02:34:46.218 – 02:34:47.878] I, I went to a conference. [02:34:47.878 – 02:34:50.878] Zach, somebody, who was that from Houma that was down in Home? [02:34:50.878 – 02:34:51.278] Yeah. [02:34:51.278 – 02:34:51.818] Yeah, Mike. [02:34:51.818 – 02:34:54.338] Yeah, we're in Houma, Louisiana. [02:34:54.338 – 02:34:56.678] Now, if you don't think that's Cajun country, just go. [02:34:56.678 – 02:35:01.178] Yeah, I never knew how to eat crawfish, but they tried to show m- show me.

[02:35:01.178 – 02:35:04.598] And that was so gross, I couldn't even watch them do it. [02:35:04.598 – 02:35:06.078] Much less do it myself. [02:35:06.078 – 02:35:09.538] And when they talk about eating a crawfish, they are serious. [02:35:09.538 – 02:35:10.838] They really, uh… [02:35:10.838 – 02:35:15.258] I don't wanna think about that anymore. [02:35:15.258 – 02:35:17.118] That's yuck. [02:35:17.118 – 02:35:19.778] Well, they're great people. [02:35:19.778 – 02:35:27.318] Yeah, and so we had the conference and, uh, the, uh, lady, when I, when left you, you know we paid expenses. [02:35:27.318 – 02:35:28.978] That's part of fellow support. [02:35:28.978 – 02:35:32.698] She said, "You mind if we send you a check?" "No, no," she said…

[02:35:32.698 – 02:35:37.938] No, she gave me a check. [02:35:37.938 – 02:35:42.698] And it's, and okay, fine, we kissed and said goodbye and went back to North Carolina. [02:35:42.698 – 02:35:44.958] For some reason, I didn't cash the check. [02:35:44.958 – 02:35:46.038] I mean, I didn't put it in the bank. [02:35:46.038 – 02:35:47.218] Just hadn't gotten there or something. [02:35:47.218 – 02:35:54.878] And, uh, she called me a few days later, and she said, "Did you cash that check?" I said, "Uh, no. [02:35:54.878 – 02:36:05.278] Why?" And she said, "Don't." And what happened, unfortunately, it happens sometime, somebody left with the entire treasury

[02:36:05.278 – 02:36:06.058] of the conference. [02:36:06.058 – 02:36:06.668] Wow. [02:36:06.668 – 02:36:07.658] I mean, everything. [02:36:07.658 – 02:36:08.818] They hadn't paid the hotel. [02:36:08.818 – 02:36:13.538] I mean, they hadn't paid anything, and I mean, they were flat on the rocks. [02:36:13.538 – 02:36:18.098] And, uh, I said, "Well, don't worry about it. [02:36:18.098 – 02:36:22.198] My God, I'll throw something in to help bail out if you want to." I mean, I said, "Don't worry about me. [02:36:22.198 – 02:36:24.918] It's okay." And she said, "No, no, no. [02:36:24.918 – 02:36:28.058] I guarantee we'll pay it, but I don't know how." And I said, "All right, fine.

[02:36:28.058 – 02:36:31.418] Don't sweat it." Well, about three weeks later, she called me. [02:36:31.418 – 02:36:33.058] Great story. [02:36:33.058 – 02:36:33.978] I just, great story. [02:36:33.978 – 02:36:43.258] And she said, "Cash the check." I said, "Tell me what happened." And what it was, there was a guy named Walt. [02:36:43.258 – 02:36:46.618] If he's, if he's here, identify yourself, Walt. [02:36:46.618 – 02:36:53.058] And the guy named Walt was the single signature treasurer of that conference. [02:36:53.058 – 02:36:57.698] And, uh, he boogied with every bit of, of cash. [02:36:57.698 – 02:36:59.208] He didn't take any, any, any… [02:36:59.208 – 02:37:00.498] He took all the cash.

[02:37:00.498 – 02:37:01.918] A lot of money. [02:37:01.918 – 02:37:10.121] And, uh, I had spent, uh, it wasn't my fault, but I spent about two hours in a room with him talking big book. [02:37:10.121 – 02:37:14.462] And, uh, this guy was as knowledgeable of big book as anybody I've ever seen. [02:37:14.462 – 02:37:18.582] And he was also knowledgeable with how to leave town with the money, too. [02:37:18.582 – 02:37:22.542] And, uh, Walt had left. [02:37:22.542 – 02:37:27.342] So they met about, uh, uh, right, right after the conference, and they were… [02:37:27.342 – 02:37:33.902] The, the, the con– the, the conscience of the group was how long the rope ought to be that we hang Walt with when we catch him.

[02:37:33.902 – 02:37:35.162] That's basically what they were doing. [02:37:35.162 – 02:37:43.142] And there's a guy sitting there, everybody calls him Cajun Joe, lives in Golden Meadows, Louisiana. [02:37:43.142 – 02:37:45.142] Good guy. [02:37:45.142 – 02:37:46.722] Really good, solid member. [02:37:46.722 – 02:37:53.822] So Joe was sitting there just kinda listening to the, all of the insurrection taking place. [02:37:53.822 – 02:38:03.522] And, uh, he said, "You know what we ought to do?" And they said, "What?" You know, listening, 'cause Joe was the great white father there, you know. [02:38:03.522 – 02:38:04.542] He- What are you… [02:38:04.542 – 02:38:05.542] what? [02:38:05.542 – 02:38:10.962] And he said, "Nothing." And they s– Of course, they didn't wanna hear that.

[02:38:10.962 – 02:38:18.022] "Now what are you talking about?" And he said, "What we need to keep in mind is that we'll get over this very quickly. [02:38:18.022 – 02:38:21.492] Walt never will." Mm. [02:38:21.492 – 02:38:21.922] Yeah. [02:38:21.922 – 02:38:25.682] Unless he makes it right. [02:38:25.682 – 02:38:28.622] And that, that's the important thing about something like that. [02:38:28.622 – 02:38:31.602] And so great resolution, eh? [02:38:31.602 – 02:38:32.802] Great resolution. [02:38:32.802 – 02:38:35.342] We don't have to go hunt him down and punish him. [02:38:35.342 – 02:38:36.502] He's already done that. [02:38:36.502 – 02:38:38.762] What we have to do… [02:38:38.762 – 02:38:43.082] And, and the same thing happened to them as happened to me with that public meeting.

[02:38:43.082 – 02:38:50.982] The folk in the area got the, got the word and, and bailed it out in no time. [02:38:50.982 – 02:39:01.402] And I talked to Joe later, good friend, and he said that was the best thing that had happened for unity in their area [02:39:01.402 – 02:39:02.172] in his memory. [02:39:02.172 – 02:39:05.742] But see, what happened, people come together. [02:39:05.742 – 02:39:06.542] They pull. [02:39:06.542 – 02:39:12.482] There's a specific need that needs to be met, and we respond to that. [02:39:12.482 – 02:39:14.022] It's unbelievable. [02:39:14.022 – 02:39:22.802] I guarantee you, in this room today, if we said we needed twenty-five books to take down to Quentin because I saw them missing last night, we'd have them before we left.

[02:39:22.802 – 02:39:25.402] I don't know where we'd get them, we'd have them. [02:39:25.402 – 02:39:27.362] We're just that way. [02:39:27.362 – 02:39:31.102] We're funny about this whole business o-of self-support. [02:39:31.102 – 02:39:34.202] It's, it's, um… [02:39:34.202 – 02:39:43.002] I tell you what, one reason… [02:39:43.002 – 02:39:44.942] I, I wanna lay a little emphasis on this. [02:39:44.942 – 02:39:56.672] One, one reason that, that I think is such a critical thing to deal with is that from the day of the Rockefeller dinner until [02:39:56.672 – 02:39:59.382] this day, we've never been self-supporting. [02:39:59.382 – 02:40:03.862] It's a great principle, but we've never achieved it.

[02:40:03.862 – 02:40:13.922] And, um, what– It, it goes back to that whole causation because of just simply not understanding or not [02:40:13.922 – 02:40:15.682] being responsive or not knowing. [02:40:15.682 – 02:40:18.442] What we find is that… [02:40:18.442 – 02:40:21.182] What? [02:40:21.182 – 02:40:30.622] The latest numbers I heard of registered groups, I'm not talking about spontaneous, unasso- unaffiliated groups. [02:40:30.622 – 02:40:35.602] Of registered groups, forty-two percent contribute. [02:40:35.602 – 02:40:39.862] Fifty-eight percent freeload. [02:40:39.862 – 02:40:50.262] Now I think some of that is because we just don't deal with this thing enough to understand the relevance of our support [02:40:50.262 – 02:40:51.842] to our mission, to our purpose.

[02:40:51.842 – 02:40:54.342] And, but that's where we are. [02:40:54.342 – 02:40:57.782] You know, we've, we've never, up until… [02:40:57.782 – 02:41:07.522] When I say that we're not self-supporting, up until recently, um, well, we've always survived on our literature sales. [02:41:07.522 – 02:41:08.682] That's what's bailed us out. [02:41:08.682 – 02:41:18.822] Until recently, the biggest customer for AA literature was the Hazelden Corporation in Minnesota, which [02:41:18.822 – 02:41:20.962] is not an AA entity, you know. [02:41:20.962 – 02:41:25.611] So our, our basic support depended heavily on, on an outside resource. [02:41:25.611 – 02:41:29.792] And what they do is legal and appropriate, you know.

[02:41:29.792 – 02:41:34.962] But, but what does it do for our integrity as a fellowship and our principle of self-support? [02:41:34.962 – 02:41:37.032] It really skews that thing badly. [02:41:37.032 – 02:41:46.702] When the, the ma– I'm not real good at math, but think about this in terms of soluble problems. [02:41:50.576 – 02:42:00.736] We could pay the entire budget of our world services total for a little less than ten dollars per year [02:42:00.736 – 02:42:01.356] per member. [02:42:01.356 – 02:42:03.416] Can you imagine that? [02:42:03.416 – 02:42:08.856] For less than ten bucks a member, we could handle the entire deal.

[02:42:08.856 – 02:42:18.016] It, it's, it's a sort of ignorance of it or apathy about it or both. [02:42:18.016 – 02:42:18.975] I, I'm not sure what. [02:42:18.975 – 02:42:21.156] But it's a troubling kind of thing. [02:42:21.156 – 02:42:26.406] And by the way, the, uh, uh, it, it may some, be some dubious pride in this. [02:42:26.406 – 02:42:32.116] Biggest consu- cons- consumer of A literature now, it resides in Northern California. [02:42:32.116 – 02:42:37.956] It's, um, interesting about these, how these things break down. [02:42:37.956 – 02:42:47.956] But that, and, and I hope that's a troubling thing to you, that recognizing the dignity that comes from self-support, the dignity

[02:42:47.956 – 02:42:53.776] from contributing, and realize that forty-two percent of our fellowship are short-changing themselves. [02:42:53.776 – 02:42:59.156] And that's why I think it's an important thing to deal with in, in, in this kind of a workshop and in our groups. [02:42:59.156 – 02:43:05.236] There's a thing being done, I had a chance to see it last week in Kansas, of all places. [02:43:05.236 – 02:43:15.236] Uh, somebody's written up, I think it was done at the conference level, but somebody's written up, you know, like a little meeting statement things that some of us don't like to break,

[02:43:15.236 – 02:43:25.456] you know, the, from the, the published by the office that says, "Here's what, uh, open meeting is, a closed meeting." They, they're working on one right now that's, um, [02:43:25.456 – 02:43:33.176] about the financial statement, which is about the same number of words, and it basically says, um, uh, what the con- contribution is for. [02:43:33.176 – 02:43:41.576] It really struck me, and I gotta get word to somebody that at least one guy's concerned that it made no mention of service, yeah. [02:43:41.576 – 02:43:45.566] It, it, it mentioned all about support of our ongoing operation, you know, that thing.

[02:43:45.566 – 02:43:46.656] Well, that's fine. [02:43:46.656 – 02:43:49.136] I mean, but that's bare operating costs. [02:43:49.136 – 02:43:56.256] And so I, I'd like to see that thing say real clear in plain English, to provide our services. [02:43:56.256 – 02:44:06.766] So that when we patriotically quote our responsibility statement, I'm [02:44:06.766 – 02:44:09.836] responsible when anybody, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want to lend a hand to be able to be there. [02:44:09.836 – 02:44:11.736] I want us to mean that. [02:44:11.736 – 02:44:13.116] I want us to mean that. [02:44:13.116 – 02:44:16.916] And to be sure that we do the things that make it happen.

[02:44:16.916 – 02:44:20.116] And contributions is certainly one of them. [02:44:20.116 – 02:44:27.676] And, uh, so very, uh, uh, for me, obviously, it's a kind of a, kind of an, uh, an important thing. [02:44:27.676 – 02:44:38.636] It's a, it's a, it's a tricky thing too, in that when you're gonna, when you're gonna hold [02:44:38.636 – 02:44:44.736] out outside contributions, that is sometimes really tricky, and you never know what you're gonna run into. [02:44:44.736 – 02:44:48.656] I, I, I tell you one other thing that just a while back. [02:44:48.656 – 02:44:51.356] I, I got a call from a funeral director.

[02:44:51.356 – 02:44:54.176] I thought he was gonna fit me for a box or something. [02:44:54.176 – 02:44:56.296] But, but I told him I wasn't ready. [02:44:56.296 – 02:45:02.576] And, uh, and I didn't know him, but somebody had told him to call me that I might have some clue. [02:45:02.576 – 02:45:12.616] And what happened, a young fella, fairly young fella in a neighboring town had died, and, and he, he'd had, he'd gone through treatment, and he just started to get, get [02:45:12.616 – 02:45:13.256] going to AA. [02:45:13.256 – 02:45:16.816] And he died pretty young.

[02:45:16.816 – 02:45:23.136] And his family wanted to do something to express their grief, you know. [02:45:23.136 – 02:45:25.235] Wanted to take some action. [02:45:25.235 – 02:45:32.776] So in app– in appreciation of what he was trying to do, they, um, they wanted to make a contribution to AA. [02:45:32.776 – 02:45:40.396] So they told the funeral director, said, "Do you think you can find a place that we can donate this to AA because we wanna show our appreciation?" So he called me. [02:45:40.396 – 02:45:50.436] I don't know who passed the buck and sent him to me, but, but he, uh, he told me, and I said, I said, I said, "My God, that's

[02:45:50.436 – 02:45:54.116] just a wonderful gesture, but we can't do it. [02:45:54.116 – 02:45:59.256] We can't do it." And then I explained to him about our principle of self-support. [02:45:59.256 – 02:46:04.275] We don't use people anymore, and we're self-supporting. [02:46:04.275 – 02:46:12.116] We carry our weight, which is a new experience for some of us, but we carry our weight, and we won't take contributions. [02:46:12.116 – 02:46:17.396] We only take a limited amount from our own members and none from the outside world. [02:46:17.396 – 02:46:26.436] And, uh, and so when we got through, he, he said, "I swear that's a wonderful position." He understood what I was talking about.

[02:46:26.436 – 02:46:36.256] And he said, "Well, what would you do with it?" And I said, "Well, there are some really good things you can do." And I named a, I named a National Council on Alcoholism, for one. [02:46:36.256 – 02:46:43.916] I named a treatment center that was a real bare bones type operation with no, no dream suites or anything like that. [02:46:43.916 – 02:46:53.196] I mean, it was, um, out in the woods, rock 'em, sock 'em, down and dirty, uh, a, a, a good solid recovery program, uh, treatment program.

[02:46:53.196 – 02:46:58.836] And I said, "That's a good place." And he said, "Well, by golly, that's where this guy went." And I said, "Well, that'd be a very appropriate place. [02:46:58.836 – 02:46:59.996] Donate the money. [02:46:59.996 – 02:47:10.076] You know, it's a very appropriate thing." So but it's important that, that we have integrity not only in our support, but in [02:47:10.076 – 02:47:13.356] not selling out and letting other people carry our weight. [02:47:13.356 – 02:47:20.076] And, and so it's a, it's a kind of a novel thing for, for a guy like me to, to do that, but it's an important principle.

[02:47:20.076 – 02:47:22.836] We, we meet in a church. [02:47:22.836 – 02:47:26.776] We're not part of that church. [02:47:26.776 – 02:47:29.316] We have space in that church. [02:47:29.316 – 02:47:32.196] Matter of fact, we have unlimited space in that church. [02:47:32.196 – 02:47:37.656] And, um, when we started, they didn't want any money. [02:47:37.656 – 02:47:44.856] And, and so we told them that that was a very nice, gentle, uh, generous thing for them, but we couldn't accept it. [02:47:44.856 – 02:47:49.796] And so we haggled, and we agreed that we'll make a contribution. [02:47:49.796 – 02:47:51.796] And so we make a contribution. [02:47:51.796 – 02:47:58.904] In our group, we go broke every three months, uh, down to a It's an established reserve, three hundred dollars.

[02:47:58.904 – 02:48:02.864] And so at the end of three hundred dollars, we don't have to make any big decision. [02:48:02.864 – 02:48:03.574] We've already made them. [02:48:03.574 – 02:48:06.524] That every three months we go broke. [02:48:06.524 – 02:48:15.344] We s– we handle our basic expenses, which is the contribution to the church, our expenses to drink coffee and bottled water now, we're getting fancy. [02:48:15.344 – 02:48:15.354] Mm-hmm. [02:48:15.354 – 02:48:18.964] And the, the operating stuff, our literature, you know, things like that. [02:48:18.964 – 02:48:22.564] You know, those, those are basic items of, of, of expense. [02:48:22.564 – 02:48:32.864] Once we handle that, we take everything that's left and break it up four ways, and we send, uh, to our local intergroup office, our district,

[02:48:32.864 – 02:48:37.284] our area of the state of North Carolina, and to our general service work, you know. [02:48:37.284 – 02:48:38.514] And so we go broke. [02:48:38.514 – 02:48:40.284] And so it's a no-brainer. [02:48:40.284 – 02:48:45.504] You know, it's just a simple automatic thing to do that you could almost run it off on a copy machine. [02:48:45.504 – 02:48:46.124] That's way it's going. [02:48:46.124 – 02:48:47.404] The only thing that changes is the amount. [02:48:47.404 – 02:48:55.204] And, uh, so it's a good thing, you know, that, that we, that we establish that as an ethic in our group, not an adventure.

[02:48:55.204 – 02:48:57.384] You know, it's not something to do when we think about it. [02:48:57.384 – 02:48:58.644] We just do it routinely. [02:48:58.644 – 02:49:06.744] Um, so anything on self-support anybody want to, want to take a whack at? [02:49:06.744 – 02:49:10.184] I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to rush and get us out of here before it gets hot. [02:49:10.184 – 02:49:11.594] Uh, Kent, right… [02:49:11.594 – 02:49:13.104] This lady right here. [02:49:13.104 – 02:49:19.523] Denise. [02:49:19.523 – 02:49:24.394] Yeah. [02:49:24.394 – 02:49:26.064] My name is Denise, and I'm an alcoholic. [02:49:26.064 – 02:49:26.954] Hi, Denise. [02:49:26.954 – 02:49:27.314] Hi. [02:49:27.314 – 02:49:34.324] Um, you know, that, uh, seventh tradition for me not only is monetary, but service.

[02:49:34.324 – 02:49:36.844] What do I contribute to this program? [02:49:36.844 – 02:49:37.304] Yeah. [02:49:37.304 – 02:49:39.084] Because money is money. [02:49:39.084 – 02:49:39.354] Mm-hmm. [02:49:39.354 – 02:49:44.124] But when we do service, I think that's the largest cont- contributions we can make. [02:49:44.124 – 02:49:44.464] Yeah. [02:49:44.464 – 02:49:45.844] I couldn't agree more. [02:49:45.844 – 02:49:47.724] I appreciate you bringing that out. [02:49:47.724 – 02:49:49.424] Everybody doesn't have money. [02:49:49.424 – 02:49:52.124] You know, every-everybody can't give anything. [02:49:52.124 – 02:49:54.374] Uh, but everybody can give something. [02:49:54.374 – 02:50:00.744] And, and so I, I think that's a great point be-because just because you don't m– have money doesn't mean you can't support. [02:50:00.744 – 02:50:01.764] You can pick up a chair.

[02:50:01.764 – 02:50:02.604] You could help move. [02:50:02.604 – 02:50:04.144] You could help do the work. [02:50:04.144 – 02:50:06.684] And so you can get the dignity other ways. [02:50:06.684 – 02:50:08.144] Yeah, I was talking about… [02:50:08.144 – 02:50:18.204] And, and I really am appreciate you bringing it up because that's a, that tremendously important thing that supporting the work is as important as supporting the, [02:50:18.204 – 02:50:20.064] the, the, the funds and stuff like that. [02:50:20.064 – 02:50:21.344] Yeah, great point. [02:50:21.344 – 02:50:22.684] And you sure can. [02:50:22.684 – 02:50:25.564] Anybody that says they got nothing to contribute, they don't need to be embarrassed.

[02:50:25.564 – 02:50:28.664] You never ought to be embarrassed because there are other ways to do it. [02:50:28.664 – 02:50:29.384] Yeah, Vic. [02:50:29.384 – 02:50:31.784] Uh, excuse me. [02:50:31.784 – 02:50:32.624] I can't… [02:50:32.624 – 02:50:33.624] Yeah, Kent's the runner. [02:50:33.624 – 02:50:35.564] Well, we need the microphone. [02:50:35.564 – 02:50:36.483] You don't, but we do. [02:50:36.483 – 02:50:39.363] We gotta record you, big guy. [02:50:39.363 – 02:50:40.464] Yeah. [02:50:40.464 – 02:50:43.243] Yeah. [02:50:43.243 – 02:50:45.984] Vic «Seized up» taking alcoholic. [02:50:45.984 – 02:50:47.064] Yeah. [02:50:47.064 – 02:50:57.224] Hey, um, something that always kinda concerned me was, uh, at group level when it comes to serving the general service structure, is you would find [02:50:57.224 – 02:51:06.204] these groups that felt like they didn't wanna support the travel of their GSR or their district going to area or going other places.

[02:51:06.204 – 02:51:15.344] And so you'd find this circumstance where you'd find people that can afford to travel where they would cover their own, cover their own expense. [02:51:15.344 – 02:51:25.644] And I got particularly bothered by that at one point, thinking that, you know, you're actually removing my right to participate in the process, uh, [02:51:25.644 – 02:51:33.134] by being self-supporting, by whatever I contribute also contributes to your service through the structure, um, by paying for everything yourself. [02:51:33.134 – 02:51:38.224] And then we get in a situation where only those who can afford to serve end up being the ones who are serving.

[02:51:38.224 – 02:51:41.004] So I'm wondering if you could speak to that a little bit. [02:51:41.004 – 02:51:41.534] Yeah. [02:51:41.534 – 02:51:46.204] I tell you, I, I was, I was as guilty as a dog for about twenty-five, thirty years. [02:51:46.204 – 02:51:53.483] Uh, now I had righteous kind of justification in my own mind that, you know, that I could afford it. [02:51:53.483 – 02:51:55.524] I mean, I was, I broke, but I mean, I could afford it. [02:51:55.524 – 02:51:59.884] And, and for twenty-five or thirty years, I would not take reimbursement. [02:51:59.884 – 02:52:03.044] And finally, it's exactly what you said.

[02:52:03.044 – 02:52:09.144] It finally dawned on me that that was not generous, that was selfish for exactly the reason you said. [02:52:09.144 – 02:52:19.264] When I take that on myself, I'm denying others the right of participation because when they pay that expense, that they're– [02:52:19.264 – 02:52:23.884] I'm their emissary and not just one hero going off on his own. [02:52:23.884 – 02:52:26.364] And, and so it, it was a selfish thing. [02:52:26.364 – 02:52:27.944] I, I didn't think of it that way. [02:52:27.944 – 02:52:29.234] I thought I was being generous. [02:52:29.234 – 02:52:34.274] And I tell you the truth, the first time I ever took a check for mileage-

[02:52:35.254 – 02:52:37.834] I, that was the most awkward thing I had ever done. [02:52:37.834 – 02:52:44.634] Little gal write that check, and I wanted to say, "Jesus, get that thing out of, out of the way." But the principle's right. [02:52:44.634 – 02:52:50.694] That it's as much a violation if I give too much as it is if I give too little. [02:52:50.694 – 02:52:56.574] And, and so big dogging it and, and carrying the weight is exactly what you said. [02:52:56.574 – 02:52:59.673] It deprives others of the, the right to be a part of it.

[02:52:59.673 – 02:53:03.774] I want my group to be represented, not just my thoughts. [02:53:03.774 – 02:53:08.654] And so if I make that an isolated deal, I'm not really carrying the group. [02:53:08.654 – 02:53:13.994] Right now, I, I think I'm gonna raise a little bit of a question to it. [02:53:13.994 – 02:53:24.074] Right now, we, we, we, uh, reimburse our GSR for the travel to the assemblies almost double what the area does for [02:53:24.074 – 02:53:24.894] other service. [02:53:24.894 – 02:53:34.954] So I, I'm really uncomfortable about that because we're overdoing, in the case of the group, supporting somebody in sharp contrast to what the, the norm is in the

[02:53:34.954 – 02:53:35.334] structure. [02:53:35.334 – 02:53:36.214] So if… [02:53:36.214 – 02:53:37.754] There are issues with that, for sure. [02:53:37.754 – 02:53:39.464] But you hit a real good one. [02:53:39.464 – 02:53:42.714] If I'm trying to be heroic, I gotta watch out for… [02:53:42.714 – 02:53:44.694] You know, I don't think it was ego. [02:53:44.694 – 02:53:53.574] I think it was just failing to stop and think about the real violation that was occurring under all good intentions, I think. [02:53:53.574 – 02:53:54.074] Yeah. [02:53:54.074 – 02:53:57.074] But yeah, good, good, good question and good point. [02:53:57.074 – 02:53:58.514] Anybody else? [02:53:58.514 – 02:53:59.113] Yeah. [02:53:59.113 – 02:54:01.694] Uh, oh, you pointed at me. [02:54:01.694 – 02:54:04.973] I thought you were accusing me of something.

[02:54:04.973 – 02:54:13.134] Sorry for those pauses, but it's a big room. [02:54:13.134 – 02:54:15.394] Kathy McCarty, alcoholic. [02:54:15.394 – 02:54:15.804] Hi, Kathy. [02:54:15.804 – 02:54:24.394] Um, isn't there a certain percentage rate that we're supposed to contribute per group for those four, um, areas of service? [02:54:24.394 – 02:54:28.414] World service, area, district, and Central Valley. [02:54:28.414 – 02:54:30.954] There used to be, but it's lapsed into antiquity. [02:54:30.954 – 02:54:34.074] We used to call it the sixty/thirty/ten plan. [02:54:34.074 – 02:54:37.304] And, uh, but, but no, each group makes up its own. [02:54:37.304 – 02:54:39.174] That really has gone into antiquity. [02:54:39.174 – 02:54:41.154] Uh, in fact, there's a p-a pamphlet on it.

[02:54:41.154 – 02:54:44.734] I think it's gonna be discontinued, and it's gonna be a little more… [02:54:44.734 – 02:54:48.094] There, there, there's no real specific guideline. [02:54:48.094 – 02:54:56.134] And when you do that, that was a suggestion, but in, in all, in all truth, when we examined it, we didn't find that to, to fit our needs. [02:54:56.134 – 02:55:00.514] And we really wanted to be supportive of things, so we give twenty-five percent to each. [02:55:00.514 – 02:55:08.734] And so every group does that on their own, and that, just the fact of the pamphlet doesn't mean that that was a, a, a, a harsh guideline.

[02:55:08.734 – 02:55:11.164] It was just an example, you know, of ways. [02:55:11.164 – 02:55:13.654] But that was used around the country an awful lot. [02:55:13.654 – 02:55:17.614] So yeah, and that, the new publication on that's gonna be a lot more general, I think. [02:55:17.614 – 02:55:18.834] Yeah. [02:55:18.834 – 02:55:20.434] And now when you say- Wait a minute. [02:55:20.434 – 02:55:21.034] Wait just a minute. [02:55:21.034 – 02:55:22.194] Wait, we gotta record that. [02:55:22.194 – 02:55:22.954] Yes. [02:55:22.954 – 02:55:24.034] You may not want it, but we got… [02:55:24.034 – 02:55:28.114] Do you ever listen to a tape and it's got answers and no questions? [02:55:28.114 – 02:55:30.724] Yeah. [02:55:30.724 – 02:55:31.654] It's terrible.

[02:55:31.654 – 02:55:31.683] Oh, it's terrible. [02:55:31.683 – 02:55:32.873] Go ahead, yeah. [02:55:32.873 – 02:55:32.884] Let me ask. [02:55:32.884 – 02:55:35.194] My name is Steven, and I am alcoholic. [02:55:35.194 – 02:55:35.614] Hey. [02:55:35.614 – 02:55:36.014] Hey, Steven. [02:55:36.014 – 02:55:37.494] Good afternoon, family. [02:55:37.494 – 02:55:37.944] Yeah. [02:55:37.944 – 02:55:41.914] Uh, when you say sixty/thirty/ten, where's the sixty going? [02:55:41.914 – 02:55:43.054] Where's the thirty going? [02:55:43.054 – 02:55:44.154] Where's the ten going? [02:55:44.154 – 02:55:48.134] Well, since it was published in New York, of course, the sixty was New York. [02:55:48.134 – 02:55:51.574] And the thirty area and ten district. [02:55:51.574 – 02:55:54.074] But, uh, but that was always just a guideline. [02:55:54.074 – 02:55:58.374] And, and, uh, but we overdid it and just took it as party line for a long, long time.

[02:55:58.374 – 02:56:01.094] That's been around for a long time, but it's going out. [02:56:01.094 – 02:56:05.854] And, and, uh, so we, we were just an early rebel and it– when set up our own deal. [02:56:05.854 – 02:56:06.394] Yeah. [02:56:06.394 – 02:56:07.894] Anybody else on this they'd say? [02:56:07.894 – 02:56:09.414] All right. [02:56:09.414 – 02:56:10.894] Well, let's, let's, uh, let's… [02:56:10.894 – 02:56:12.654] We're not break time. [02:56:12.654 – 02:56:13.414] We… [02:56:13.414 – 02:56:13.994] No, okay. [02:56:13.994 – 02:56:15.004] Oh, that's right. [02:56:15.004 – 02:56:16.134] We'll go through six, seven, and eight. [02:56:16.134 – 02:56:18.114] Uh, seven, eight, and nine. [02:56:18.114 – 02:56:21.074] Yeah. [02:56:21.074 – 02:56:22.094] There's time for everybody. [02:56:22.094 – 02:56:22.104] Yeah. [02:56:22.104 – 02:56:22.204] Mm-hmm. [02:56:22.204 – 02:56:22.634] Yeah. [02:56:22.634 – 02:56:23.834] After thirty more minutes. [02:56:23.834 – 02:56:24.403] Right. [02:56:24.403 – 02:56:24.734] Okay.

[02:56:24.734 – 02:56:25.044] Right. [02:56:25.044 – 02:56:25.694] Yeah. [02:56:25.694 – 02:56:26.194] Go ahead, Dan. [02:56:26.194 – 02:56:27.464] Oh, no, wait a minute. [02:56:27.464 – 02:56:27.694] Kent? [02:56:27.694 – 02:56:28.254] Where's Kent? [02:56:28.254 – 02:56:29.794] Oh, there he is. [02:56:29.794 – 02:56:33.234] Uh, uh, yeah. [02:56:33.234 – 02:56:36.504] Oh. [02:56:36.504 – 02:56:38.574] He's… [02:56:38.574 – 02:56:39.494] Well, you're already there. [02:56:39.494 – 02:56:43.664] I'm doing my best. [02:56:43.664 – 02:56:44.354] Okay. [02:56:44.354 – 02:56:47.654] We're trying not to drive you crazy with this thing. [02:56:47.654 – 02:56:48.874] Yeah. [02:56:48.874 – 02:56:49.874] Danny, alcoholic. [02:56:49.874 – 02:56:50.614] Hey, Danny. [02:56:50.614 – 02:56:51.343] Danny. [02:56:51.343 – 02:56:51.764] Hey, thanks. [02:56:51.764 – 02:56:53.334] And thanks, Tom, for what you're doing. [02:56:53.334 – 02:56:53.934] I appreciate it. [02:56:53.934 – 02:56:55.653] Uh, on a… [02:56:55.653 – 02:57:03.834] W-when a new group is just starting out and they don't yet have the facilities to support themselves, how does that work?

[02:57:03.834 – 02:57:13.854] To get guys, just like the other thing that, uh, that, that, that she was talking about, that you, you make up a service, 'cause sometimes you just don't have it, and it's not [02:57:13.854 – 02:57:14.514] a shame to. [02:57:14.514 – 02:57:15.054] It's, uh… [02:57:15.054 – 02:57:20.574] I, I think it's all right to hurt a little bit, but if you don't have it, that's just a fact of life. [02:57:20.574 – 02:57:26.174] And, um, so that, I think that's what the rest of us for, is just give support and encouragement while that's growing.

[02:57:26.174 – 02:57:30.434] But no, I wouldn't put any, uh, any, uh, kind of expectation on that. [02:57:30.434 – 02:57:31.634] I don't think anybody else would. [02:57:31.634 – 02:57:33.714] It's kind of like those guys in that prison. [02:57:33.714 – 02:57:36.654] I know that they're, they're not gonna be able to be totally self-supporting. [02:57:36.654 – 02:57:45.254] But if we make ourselves part of that they, which we do, we're, we're well self-supporting. [02:57:45.254 – 02:57:49.754] And so we are one hundred percent self-supporting in the prison groups. [02:57:49.754 – 02:57:53.294] And all we do, just mix a little in because I'm part of that.

[02:57:53.294 – 02:57:55.774] And the other guys that go in there, uh, are. [02:57:55.774 – 02:57:57.754] So, so we can do it. [02:57:57.754 – 02:58:00.094] It's just a matter of pulling together and doing it and… [02:58:00.094 – 02:58:04.114] But there's nothing wrong with, with, uh, with stiffing the basket till you get some money. [02:58:04.114 – 02:58:05.934] Better than writing a bad check. [02:58:05.934 – 02:58:09.014] Yeah, we get enough of those. [02:58:09.014 – 02:58:10.834] Yeah. [02:58:10.834 – 02:58:10.924] Yeah. [02:58:10.924 – 02:58:13.574] Yeah, good luck with the group too, Dan, if you start one. [02:58:13.574 – 02:58:13.914] Yeah. [02:58:13.914 – 02:58:14.434] Okay. [02:58:14.434 – 02:58:16.194] Yeah. [02:58:16.194 – 02:58:16.344] Yeah. [02:58:16.344 – 02:58:17.274] I'm new Mike. [02:58:17.274 – 02:58:17.794] Oh, you. [02:58:17.794 – 02:58:19.014] Oh, you're the new Roadrunner.

[02:58:19.014 – 02:58:19.543] I'm Mike. [02:58:19.543 – 02:58:20.154] Oh, okay. [02:58:20.154 – 02:58:21.414] You're Mike. [02:58:21.414 – 02:58:21.484] Ah. [02:58:21.484 – 02:58:21.874] Okay. [02:58:21.874 – 02:58:23.644] Uh, anybody else? [02:58:23.644 – 02:58:24.974] If not, we'll move into eight. [02:58:24.974 – 02:58:26.474] Ryan wants to raise his hand. [02:58:26.474 – 02:58:26.874] Yeah. [02:58:26.874 – 02:58:27.414] Okay. [02:58:27.414 – 02:58:28.394] Yeah. [02:58:28.394 – 02:58:29.954] Yeah, I'll just give you mine. [02:58:29.954 – 02:58:30.874] That'd be easier. [02:58:30.874 – 02:58:31.674] Thanks. [02:58:31.674 – 02:58:32.914] My name is Ryan Davis. [02:58:32.914 – 02:58:33.614] I'm an alcoholic. [02:58:33.614 – 02:58:33.954] Ryan. [02:58:33.954 – 02:58:40.970] Kind of on the flip side, what we've already been talking about is we have a group that's a closed meeting, and it's, uh, free rent. [02:58:40.970 – 02:58:49.029] It's actually through, uh, a rehab facility, and they, they s– they are more than ha– you know, we try to offer, try to work something out with rent.

[02:58:49.029 – 02:58:59.170] And, uh, they said, you know, "Just make it available for our, uh, our tenants to be able to come in and attend the meeting." And I said, "Well, you know, that's not a problem as long [02:58:59.170 – 02:59:09.370] as they're, you know, here for the right reasons and, you know, they, they follow the, um, the guidelines of a closed meeting." So my question is: What do we do to be self-supporting [02:59:09.370 – 02:59:10.210] in a rent-free? [02:59:10.210 – 02:59:14.830] Well, one is don't take the free rent, that's for sure.

[02:59:14.830 – 02:59:17.690] The, uh, I, I understand what you mean that… [02:59:17.690 – 02:59:19.290] Is this thing on? [02:59:19.290 – 02:59:20.130] It's on. [02:59:20.130 – 02:59:20.910] Oh, okay, good. [02:59:20.910 – 02:59:23.190] It– That, that happens a lot. [02:59:23.190 – 02:59:26.390] And, and it, and it does violate the principle. [02:59:26.390 – 02:59:36.919] Because it's, it's, it's h– like, particularly like in a facility where the stuff is there, and it's almost, like, redundant [02:59:36.919 – 02:59:37.590] to do it. [02:59:37.590 – 02:59:43.850] But I, I would think at a minimum that a regular contribution like we do at the church, they don't charge us anything.

[02:59:43.850 – 02:59:50.750] But we charge– we, we contribute about what we think they'd charge and what we think is a fair and equitable thing. [02:59:50.750 – 02:59:53.130] And, and they've never turned one down. [02:59:53.130 – 02:59:56.130] And so we do it, do it as a contribution. [02:59:56.130 – 02:59:58.250] And, uh, they're not that crazy. [02:59:58.250 – 02:59:59.070] They're Baptists, man. [02:59:59.070 – 02:59:59.590] They're hungry. [02:59:59.590 – 03:00:00.970] And, and so… [03:00:00.970 – 03:00:11.230] But, but I think it's important because I tell you what you, what you gotta watch about, whether you intend it or not, it's like in that six, Sixth Tradition, that's affiliation.

[03:00:11.230 – 03:00:12.730] That's affiliation. [03:00:12.730 – 03:00:15.590] And you become like an adjunct of that program. [03:00:15.590 – 03:00:18.369] And, and that, that's the peril with that thing. [03:00:18.369 – 03:00:19.600] It's not, not just the money. [03:00:19.600 – 03:00:27.770] There's an implied affiliation that's there because you're providing a service that's exclusive to their, to their… [03:00:27.770 – 03:00:32.070] Maybe not exclusive, but it's very, uh, focused to their patients. [03:00:32.070 – 03:00:38.430] And so you would be about in the same category as they would consider an outpatient counseling group. [03:00:38.430 – 03:00:39.990] That's the way they would look at it.

[03:00:39.990 – 03:00:44.930] It's like in that prison when we set it up self-support, they thought I was goofy. [03:00:44.930 – 03:00:51.679] And, uh, till we started to explain, they would gladly provide whatever we want. [03:00:51.679 – 03:00:53.350] If we wanted them to serve coffee, they'd do it. [03:00:53.350 – 03:00:54.110] They'd bring it in. [03:00:54.110 – 03:00:55.790] They'd cook it for us and all that. [03:00:55.790 – 03:00:56.850] We wanna use a pot. [03:00:56.850 – 03:00:57.900] You know? [03:00:57.900 – 03:01:07.350] And so we explained to them that we– when we– when, when that group meets, I know this is a little esoteric, but, but I really mean this as a sort of mission.

[03:01:07.350 – 03:01:14.310] What we wanna see is for the guy to feel like when he steps into that meeting, he steps out of that prison. [03:01:14.310 – 03:01:19.110] And so, and, and the climate, you know. [03:01:19.110 – 03:01:23.970] So if you've got the tentacles of the prison coming in, you'll never achieve that. [03:01:23.970 – 03:01:29.570] Um, it's a, it's, it's a little far field, but it's the same deal. [03:01:29.570 – 03:01:37.970] We're right, getting ready to get the prison system to stop recording attendance. [03:01:37.970 – 03:01:42.930] They, they do it under the heading of trying to keep up with the population.

[03:01:42.930 – 03:01:49.090] I don't mind if they're counting people into a building, but what they're doing is feeding that into a mainframe computer. [03:01:49.090 – 03:01:54.590] Well, when that happens, we are automatically affiliated. [03:01:54.590 – 03:01:58.610] I don't care what we intend to do, we're automatically affiliated. [03:01:58.610 – 03:02:08.670] I didn't realize how significant that was till I had a, a, a, somebody, not a, a prison fellow, but a, a citizen came to me one day and knew I was real [03:02:08.670 – 03:02:18.690] involved, said, said, "I wanna show you something that you may not believe." And he, and he showed me a f- a, a color photo of a female inmate, it's,

[03:02:18.690 – 03:02:29.190] it was actively in one of our prisons, with her entire history, her criminal history, every AA meeting she had ever attended [03:02:29.190 – 03:02:30.210] during her sentence. [03:02:30.210 – 03:02:33.190] And I said, "Man, you gotta be kidding me. [03:02:33.190 – 03:02:37.410] Where'd you get this?" And he got it in his living room on his computer. [03:02:37.410 – 03:02:44.610] Anybody, not me, but anybody with enough computer savvy to do it, they're probably all over the place out here- … [03:02:44.610 – 03:02:46.750] could do that anytime. [03:02:46.750 – 03:02:54.510] Well, my God, you think what that does to the, not only to the anonymity of the person, which is bad enough.

[03:02:54.510 – 03:03:04.530] But what does it do to this thing about how would you say we're not affiliated when we're recording for all time the performance of somebody in [03:03:04.530 – 03:03:04.710] AA? [03:03:04.710 – 03:03:06.830] Man, that's wrong as two left feet. [03:03:06.830 – 03:03:11.450] And so it's really in that same kind of ballpark as he's talking about that. [03:03:11.450 – 03:03:18.270] I think we have to be squeaky clean that, that we, we, you know, it's the golden rule applies. [03:03:18.270 – 03:03:21.230] He who has the gold, rules. [03:03:22.351 – 03:03:22.831] Yeah. [03:03:22.831 – 03:03:26.251] And so if they're providing a place, you know, I'm a part of their operations.

[03:03:26.251 – 03:03:27.791] I, I'd sure address that. [03:03:27.791 – 03:03:30.751] I, I, I would in, in a heartbeat. [03:03:30.751 – 03:03:32.891] And, uh, a simple contribution would do it. [03:03:32.891 – 03:03:39.831] You don't have to get into any high court stuff, you know, just, just say, "Man, we don't do that," so you do what you want to with it. [03:03:39.831 – 03:03:43.091] And that'd be me, Ron. [03:03:43.091 – 03:03:43.291] Yeah. [03:03:43.291 – 03:03:46.391] I'd say, "Go get 'em, tiger." Yeah. [03:03:46.391 – 03:03:47.081] Uh, yeah. [03:03:47.081 – 03:03:56.631] On the subject of, uh, prison meetings, um, I was watching Larry King the other night, and, um, uh, he had two evenings on San Quentin.

[03:03:56.631 – 03:04:06.751] And, uh, the inmates, these were all life-serving inmates, and, uh, they were listing– the inmates would talk periodically about the groups that were coming in [03:04:06.751 – 03:04:09.051] and, and how much they were helping. [03:04:09.051 – 03:04:15.811] And I kept waiting to hear the name Alcoholics Anonymous mentioned, and it never was by any of them. [03:04:15.811 – 03:04:17.391] And, uh, that… [03:04:17.391 – 03:04:22.571] I was curious about that, but then later on, I began reflecting and thinking, anonymity. [03:04:22.571 – 03:04:25.251] That's probably why it wasn't mentioned. [03:04:25.251 – 03:04:27.131] I, I think so.

[03:04:27.131 – 03:04:29.891] I, I saw one session and noted the same thing. [03:04:29.891 – 03:04:34.531] Uh, in fact, last night while we were over, we walked over to where that interviewing was done. [03:04:34.531 – 03:04:35.691] It's a nice little pretty place. [03:04:35.691 – 03:04:38.591] The rest of the place was ugly, but that one place was really pretty. [03:04:38.591 – 03:04:42.591] But that struck me, and I appreciated the fact that it wasn't there. [03:04:42.591 – 03:04:51.291] Now, that guy I was talking about in Kenya, one of the pictures he sent me was of a women's prison, and they had this sort of paddle sign out front showing stuff.

[03:04:51.291 – 03:04:53.831] I don't know why it was in English, but it was. [03:04:53.831 – 03:04:56.671] And one of the things they had listed was Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:04:56.671 – 03:05:06.671] And I mean, uh, we're not a totally secret organization, but that starts moving us toward the position of, of, of notoriety and publicity and stuff like that. [03:05:06.671 – 03:05:12.351] And, uh, it just was troubling a little bit to me, but I was real pleased to see that, that, that was left out. [03:05:12.351 – 03:05:14.691] Anybody else? [03:05:14.691 – 03:05:16.651] All right. [03:05:16.651 – 03:05:18.971] We'll, we'll move into, uh, eight.

[03:05:18.971 – 03:05:22.871] I'm, uh, I'm terrible about staying on time. [03:05:22.871 – 03:05:27.971] Well, if you don't know what time you don't do it, what you do, how you mess it up. [03:05:27.971 – 03:05:29.411] You just, just do it. [03:05:29.411 – 03:05:32.980] Um, we've hit this one a, a… [03:05:32.980 – 03:05:43.151] We've hit this one a lit- a little bit, this thing on, on eight, that, uh, the eighth one says, "Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever [03:05:43.151 – 03:05:47.651] non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers." That's, that's pretty simple. [03:05:47.651 – 03:05:52.771] Kinda like in the line we were talking about, different venue, but it's the same kind of a, of a deal.

[03:05:52.771 – 03:06:02.931] That– You remember the story I was telling, uh, about the, the, the high roller guy that, uh, the, with the twelve-step call a-and, and that, [03:06:02.931 – 03:06:04.271] you know, the, all that kind of stuff? [03:06:04.271 – 03:06:09.211] What got to that guy was the fact that he couldn't buy this. [03:06:09.211 – 03:06:10.931] I don't care what he had. [03:06:10.931 – 03:06:12.431] He couldn't buy it. [03:06:12.431 – 03:06:17.091] And his life of futility was a demonstration that you can't buy it. [03:06:17.091 – 03:06:20.211] He'd bought it everywhere in the world, but it, it never did work.

[03:06:20.211 – 03:06:26.931] And so finally, when he, he got to that truth that you don't buy this thing, and you can't sell it. [03:06:26.931 – 03:06:30.491] When you start selling it, you have just defeated the value. [03:06:30.491 – 03:06:33.051] And so it makes it something else. [03:06:33.051 – 03:06:35.151] It makes it a, a totally different activity. [03:06:35.151 – 03:06:43.231] There, there's a lot of stuff that's, um, that's done, um, that… [03:06:43.231 – 03:06:53.291] Well, we, we haven't really hit at it much, but I'll, I'll just say this and not, not go into examples or anything like

[03:06:53.291 – 03:06:53.551] that. [03:06:53.551 – 03:06:58.931] But we do an awful lot of, of brinksmanship stuff. [03:06:58.931 – 03:07:00.611] I say we advisedly. [03:07:00.611 – 03:07:04.191] I don't, don't mean it that we are doing it, but we as a fellowship. [03:07:04.191 – 03:07:14.891] There are an awful lot of examples of, of, of brinksmanship, you know, where folks will kinda rationalize some righteous mission they're on [03:07:14.891 – 03:07:25.111] and, and just totally foul up any principle having to do with, with anonymity and self-support and all that kind of stuff in, [03:07:25.111 – 03:07:28.311] in the interest of marketing, uh, of marketing something.

[03:07:28.311 – 03:07:34.611] Uh, my God, I, I never met an alcoholic that didn't think he had a book in him that needed to be written. [03:07:34.611 – 03:07:38.071] And, uh, the world needs. [03:07:38.071 – 03:07:41.810] Fortunately, most of us don't write them, you know. [03:07:41.810 – 03:07:44.251] But we got a lot to do. [03:07:44.251 – 03:07:52.750] And they do it in a, in a well-intended kinda way, it sounds like, yeah, where this really has something important. [03:07:52.750 – 03:07:55.851] And you get a… [03:07:55.851 – 03:08:06.011] Well, like, I had somebody call me the other day, a while back, and said, "Are you selling CDs?" And

[03:08:06.011 – 03:08:07.061] I said, "No, I'm not selling. [03:08:07.061 – 03:08:14.451] What are you talking about?" And, uh, and I was kinda annoyed that, you know, he asked me something like that 'cause the guy knew me. [03:08:14.451 – 03:08:22.171] Maybe it was my startled by that. [03:08:22.171 – 03:08:23.651] But what do you do? [03:08:23.651 – 03:08:31.471] You gotta deal somehow with how to protect anonymity in an instant world of communication. [03:08:31.471 – 03:08:34.291] And so it poses real, real problems. [03:08:34.291 – 03:08:39.471] And it's troubling wh-when, when that sort of thing happens, but it, but it does.

[03:08:39.471 – 03:08:48.731] Uh, I, I know I've got friends and, um, who, who market stuff that ought not to be for sale. [03:08:48.731 – 03:08:52.511] Um, it just isn't appropriate to sell in, in my judgment. [03:08:52.511 – 03:09:02.641] And it's, it's a matter of how much of that we can do with integrity rather than shucking on the principles, [03:09:02.641 – 03:09:02.891] yeah. [03:09:02.891 – 03:09:11.471] And, and so I, that's, it's a kind of a troubling ar-arena for me about this whole business of professionalism and all this kind of stuff. [03:09:11.471 – 03:09:18.691] There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing stuff for hire, working with alcoholics.

[03:09:18.691 – 03:09:28.831] I mean, way, way back, the, uh, you know, the early, uh, beginnings of treatment up in Minnesota, one of the things they demonstrated was that recovered people could make darn [03:09:28.831 – 03:09:29.811] good c-counselors. [03:09:29.811 – 03:09:38.931] And the early field of alcoholism was, was, was, uh, inundated with, with, with government-sponsored a number of people and, and, uh, who worked in treatment fields. [03:09:38.931 – 03:09:39.871] And, and there's absolutely… [03:09:39.871 – 03:09:40.551] I do now. [03:09:40.551 – 03:09:47.483] There's, there's nothing wrong with that, provided that you are squeaky clean and diligent.

[03:09:47.483 – 03:09:49.703] That's where– I mean, it's, it's fine. [03:09:49.703 – 03:09:51.283] I'm a great advocate of that. [03:09:51.283 – 03:09:55.063] I think it's fine to do that, provided that… [03:09:55.063 – 03:09:57.083] It's kinda like when I went to work in corrections. [03:09:57.083 – 03:10:07.283] Now some of y'all, y'all know the, that when I would, uh, when, after I was released from prison, I was the first inmate in history recruited back into corrections as a professional employee. [03:10:07.283 – 03:10:09.103] First one in the world. [03:10:09.103 – 03:10:11.883] I got Well, that's… [03:10:11.883 – 03:10:13.643] You're supposed to clap. [03:10:13.643 – 03:10:15.063] You got…

[03:10:15.063 – 03:10:16.743] I got a new bad guy here. [03:10:16.743 – 03:10:24.883] And I'll tell you one of my– Part of my love for traditions is that's exactly what kept my rudder straight. [03:10:24.883 – 03:10:31.783] Moving into a professional world, and I'm just two years away from being an active, uh, what do you call it? [03:10:31.783 – 03:10:33.923] S-s-state, uh, stew, uh… [03:10:33.923 – 03:10:36.463] And I know I hadn't been out too long. [03:10:36.463 – 03:10:37.063] I forgot what you call it. [03:10:37.063 – 03:10:40.663] I was a ward of the state, and now I'm an administrator of the state.

[03:10:40.663 – 03:10:43.103] That, that's a little bit of a push. [03:10:43.103 – 03:10:45.163] And tradition were extremely important to me. [03:10:45.163 – 03:10:50.483] I, I had to learn about how to operate with integrity as a professional. [03:10:50.483 – 03:10:53.123] It was, it was, you know, it would have been… [03:10:53.123 – 03:11:03.143] I wasn't tempted, but it would have been real easy for me to be on every scandal sheet in the world, uh, televisions and all kind of freak-of-the-week shows and, [03:11:03.143 – 03:11:05.162] uh, but, I mean, I knew better than that. [03:11:05.162 – 03:11:06.123] I knew better than that.

[03:11:06.123 – 03:11:09.883] I was, I was, I was well-grounded enough that, that I just didn't. [03:11:09.883 – 03:11:18.343] And so, but I would– These traditions are what made me be able to find solid ground and take my stand where I belong. [03:11:18.343 – 03:11:28.442] And, uh, it's, uh, it's the same thing with people going to work in the alcoholism field, where, where your experience is vivid and real, and it's really hard to get that. [03:11:28.442 – 03:11:33.103] But what, what happens an awful lot of times is that folks lose their bearings.

[03:11:33.103 – 03:11:38.093] They– Like I, I, I had a, had a gal one time that called me, wanted to have lunch. [03:11:38.093 – 03:11:41.323] And she was gonna buy, whi-which was almost historic. [03:11:41.323 – 03:11:45.203] Besides, I don't wanna miss that, so I went to lunch with her. [03:11:45.203 – 03:11:47.923] And you know, people always got an agenda. [03:11:47.923 – 03:11:58.023] And, uh, so we chatted over our Reubens and, and she said, "You're still active in AA, aren't you?" And I said, [03:11:58.023 – 03:12:08.743] "Oh yeah, you better believe it." And I said, "How about you?" Now I knew the answer to the question, but I said, "How about you?" And she said sad

[03:12:08.743 – 03:12:09.203] words. [03:12:09.203 – 03:12:11.943] She said, "I gave at the office. [03:12:11.943 – 03:12:15.783] I gave at the office." You hear what she's saying? [03:12:15.783 – 03:12:19.503] You talk about somebody lost, totally lost. [03:12:19.503 – 03:12:28.763] Where she thought that reporting to her job and performing a professional service was the same thing as what we do in AA for free and for fun. [03:12:28.763 – 03:12:30.803] Totally lost. [03:12:30.803 – 03:12:31.823] Totally lost. [03:12:31.823 – 03:12:39.903] And, and that's why when this whole business about in professional life, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. [03:12:39.903 – 03:12:41.023] That can be noble.

[03:12:41.023 – 03:12:46.503] And I know people who've done great work, but it is extremely difficult, very… [03:12:46.503 – 03:12:51.303] When I'm s- when I'm sponsoring somebody, which I am right now, I tell you what I watch for. [03:12:51.303 – 03:12:57.123] I, I watch for counseling in meetings, and that'll happen a lot of times. [03:12:57.123 – 03:12:58.783] It's just second nature. [03:12:58.783 – 03:13:02.943] Something comes up and you'll start doing some of that Rogerian therapy on the guy. [03:13:02.943 – 03:13:04.663] That ain't us. [03:13:04.663 – 03:13:05.843] That ain't us. [03:13:05.843 – 03:13:08.523] I guarantee you we're going to the woodshed when I hear that.

[03:13:08.523 – 03:13:15.023] Or, or somebody s- somebody start making a talk, and it's a treatment lecture. [03:13:15.023 – 03:13:16.963] You know, Alcoholism 101. [03:13:16.963 – 03:13:18.843] Look out, man. [03:13:18.843 – 03:13:19.963] That, and that's where you lose it. [03:13:19.963 – 03:13:30.043] And so that's what I watch for 'cause you could so easily get lost in that thing between what we do appropriately and what we do that pushes us over in the other direction. [03:13:30.043 – 03:13:36.643] And why we have to watch for that, that, uh, you re- you can't sell this, you can't sell this thing.

[03:13:36.643 – 03:13:42.283] I tell you, it's, it's a funny thing about, about, about, about our breed. [03:13:42.283 – 03:13:49.243] Uh, I know we're not all alike, but, but we have some traits that are just sort of germane to the species. [03:13:49.243 – 03:13:56.623] That, uh, like, most of us don't like for people to do stuff for us. [03:13:56.623 – 03:13:59.302] Now, when I was drunk, I'd let anybody do something for me. [03:13:59.302 – 03:14:01.773] But when I get sober, I've got some integrity. [03:14:01.773 – 03:14:06.343] Well, even drunk, I didn't like for people to give me too much, unless I beat them out of it.

[03:14:06.343 – 03:14:07.123] That was different. [03:14:07.123 – 03:14:09.383] Uh, but if they just gave it to me- [03:14:10.029 – 03:14:14.948] Uh, that all had to do with just isolation, when somebody gave me something, they got next to me, and I didn't want that. [03:14:14.948 – 03:14:25.109] And so I would– uh, to tell you a couple things that happened just recently that really have to do with this thing about buying and selling and how, how important it is [03:14:25.109 – 03:14:28.649] to watch that we don't get sort of borderline professionalized. [03:14:28.649 – 03:14:37.269] I had a guy, brilliant guy, he's a, not a recro- lacrosse player, but he was a Duke graduate, uh, graduated high in the class.

[03:14:37.269 – 03:14:38.649] And he's a… [03:14:38.649 – 03:14:40.869] That's, uh, that's an out-of-town remark. [03:14:40.869 – 03:14:45.549] Uh, he really was a brainy guy. [03:14:45.549 – 03:14:47.929] Uh, he was an athlete, uh, real player. [03:14:47.929 – 03:14:54.009] He was a, he holds the all-time record for su-consecutive at bats and, uh, without a strikeout in our, in our conference. [03:14:54.009 – 03:14:55.329] A football player. [03:14:55.329 – 03:14:59.289] Dude, he's really, really well-rounded, hard-charging guy. [03:14:59.289 – 03:15:00.709] A real loser in A. [03:15:00.709 – 03:15:05.629] I mean, I mean The guy just was a chronic kind of a screw-up. [03:15:05.629 – 03:15:07.289] I 12-stepped him. [03:15:07.289 – 03:15:09.709] I've done one-man interventions on him.

[03:15:09.709 – 03:15:11.549] I got to just crashed in on him. [03:15:11.549 – 03:15:12.429] He was an attorney. [03:15:12.429 – 03:15:13.749] I forgave him for that. [03:15:13.749 – 03:15:17.509] But, but I, I crashed in and one day did an intervention. [03:15:17.509 – 03:15:20.149] And that big old boy, I thought I was gonna have to tussle with him. [03:15:20.149 – 03:15:21.669] He did not take kindly to that. [03:15:21.669 – 03:15:24.969] But anyway, he's just that kind of a guy, you know, one of those sort of people. [03:15:24.969 – 03:15:30.869] Just simply self-made, rigid, demanding, arrogant. [03:15:30.869 – 03:15:33.229] God knows that guy was a turkey.

[03:15:33.229 – 03:15:35.689] I loved him dearly, but he was a real turkey. [03:15:35.689 – 03:15:43.429] And, uh, he called me one day to talk about selling it, what you sell, what you give. [03:15:43.429 – 03:15:46.389] And he, and this was a hard phone call for him to make. [03:15:46.389 – 03:15:51.109] He said, "Tom, I hate to ask you, but I need some help." Now I know that was hard for him to say. [03:15:51.109 – 03:15:59.609] I said, "What is it?" He said, "Well, I jumped a hotel bill in your town." And, uh, he's in some facility healing up.

[03:15:59.609 – 03:16:05.109] And he said, "I gotta go to court in a few days, and man, they gonna bang me. [03:16:05.109 – 03:16:09.509] I have got to pay that bill and I don't have any money." I said, "Oh, God, don't worry about it. [03:16:09.509 – 03:16:10.349] I'll pay the bill. [03:16:10.349 – 03:16:14.769] Don't worry about it." He said, "Well, I'll pay you back." I said, "Don't worry about it." I said, "I'd pay the bill. [03:16:14.769 – 03:16:19.929] You don't need to pay me back." And, um, so he said, "Well, I'm selling my car.

[03:16:19.929 – 03:16:29.029] I will." So I, I took care of the bill, and he said, "Now…" He told me, he said, "Be sure to send a receipt 'cause I gotta take that to court with me." So I sent him a receipt, and he went and got his court over. [03:16:29.029 – 03:16:31.549] Now listen to this. [03:16:31.549 – 03:16:34.729] Talk about the deceiving mind of an alcoholic. [03:16:34.729 – 03:16:41.629] He sent me a check for the amount of the bill plus five dollars. [03:16:41.629 – 03:16:45.449] Come on now, man. [03:16:45.449 – 03:16:47.859] You talk about…

[03:16:47.859 – 03:16:49.729] Now, if it had been 50, I might have… [03:16:49.729 – 03:16:50.589] No, no, I wouldn't. [03:16:50.589 – 03:16:51.589] I would not. [03:16:51.589 – 03:16:55.049] But I mean, it was, it's like tipping a server. [03:16:55.049 – 03:16:55.649] Yeah. [03:16:55.649 – 03:16:56.629] Yeah. [03:16:56.629 – 03:16:59.309] God, what a way to negate a gift, eh? [03:16:59.309 – 03:17:00.509] What are you… [03:17:00.509 – 03:17:04.909] Oh, yeah, I gave Alister a little bonus for handling this for me while I was inconvenienced. [03:17:04.909 – 03:17:06.199] Now, see what I mean? [03:17:06.199 – 03:17:10.889] That, that, that's defense system is so strong that… [03:17:10.889 – 03:17:15.609] You know, and I sent it, I sent it back to him With a, with a real sweet little note.

[03:17:15.609 – 03:17:21.749] And I said, "Oh, darling, you're probably a decent lawyer, but your math stinks. [03:17:21.749 – 03:17:24.749] Put this dude in a basket or something," you know. [03:17:24.749 – 03:17:29.389] But, but you know, it's amazing what folk– I tell you when, I, I mean, I love lawyers. [03:17:29.389 – 03:17:30.369] I, I know a lot of them. [03:17:30.369 – 03:17:32.719] I used to employ a lot of them. [03:17:32.719 – 03:17:40.649] They, uh- I had another one just very recently that was al-almost a postman. [03:17:40.649 – 03:17:43.089] This is really a wonderful, well-intentioned man. [03:17:43.089 – 03:17:47.249] Called me to come to, um, are you a lawyer?

[03:17:47.249 – 03:17:50.289] He wouldn't confess, would he? [03:17:50.289 – 03:17:50.939] God. [03:17:50.939 – 03:17:53.889] He- Tell him how much you spent last year. [03:17:53.889 – 03:17:54.928] Oh, okay. [03:17:54.928 – 03:17:59.609] Uh, th-this guy invited me to come up, well, I won't name the town. [03:17:59.609 – 03:18:00.229] The guy might… [03:18:00.229 – 03:18:01.069] Somebody might identify. [03:18:01.069 – 03:18:06.829] Come up to this house, a beautiful place, and he said, real nice fella, you know, high roller type of guy. [03:18:06.829 – 03:18:09.209] And he said, "We'd just love to have you. [03:18:09.209 – 03:18:19.619] And, and please bring your wife because we know you travel a lot, and she would love being here." And I said, "Okay, we'll do that." And he said, "And we want you to stay two nights." And it was just a one-night

[03:18:19.619 – 03:18:20.009] deal. [03:18:20.009 – 03:18:21.329] I'm, I'm doing an anniversary. [03:18:21.329 – 03:18:32.049] And I hesitated a minute, and I said, "Well, we might stay two nights, but if we do, I handle the second night." [03:18:32.049 – 03:18:36.349] And he said, "Oh, no, no, I wouldn't hear it." I mean, we went through this long palaver. [03:18:36.349 – 03:18:37.189] "I wouldn't hear that. [03:18:37.189 – 03:18:44.409] Man, you're our guest and we want you to have a good time." And I said, "Yeah, but we have a principle called self-support. [03:18:44.409 – 03:18:51.869] We don't take up collections to do mini vacation for some big mouth from another state.

[03:18:51.869 – 03:18:57.489] That's not what they're for." And he said– And he tried to argue me down, and finally he gave up. [03:18:57.489 – 03:18:59.569] And he said, "Well, okay. [03:18:59.569 – 03:19:02.349] I don't agree with you, but it's, uh, I understand what you're saying. [03:19:02.349 – 03:19:06.429] I respect that." "Good." So we get up there. [03:19:06.429 – 03:19:09.149] Puts us up in the best hotel in town. [03:19:09.149 – 03:19:10.789] Great old big ritzy place. [03:19:10.789 – 03:19:13.309] It was just poetic justice. [03:19:13.309 – 03:19:18.309] We went in after the meeting, and I had water on my T-shirt. [03:19:18.309 – 03:19:26.329] And I told wife, I said, "Did you spit on me?" "What, what is this?" I said, "I'm not drooling." And, uh, had a big leak in the ceiling.

[03:19:26.329 – 03:19:28.929] Of, of, I mean, a ritzy hotel. [03:19:28.929 – 03:19:33.089] And I look at that thing fascinated, and the bulge kept growing. [03:19:33.089 – 03:19:43.109] So I called downtown and I said, "We have a room in 516, uh, a flood in room 516." She said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "Well, my God, [03:19:43.109 – 03:19:45.938] we need water wings or a canoe up here, man." This place is… [03:19:45.938 – 03:19:49.599] She said, "They don't have maintenance people in ritzy places. [03:19:49.599 – 03:19:57.189] We'll send engineering up." So here he came, he said, "Boy, you got trouble." And, uh, so…

[03:19:57.189 – 03:19:57.959] And they couldn't move us. [03:19:57.959 – 03:19:58.479] Everything was happening. [03:19:58.479 – 03:19:59.249] There was a convention there. [03:19:59.249 – 03:20:00.409] The whole place was full. [03:20:00.409 – 03:20:01.569] And I said, "Ah, forget it. [03:20:01.569 – 03:20:06.929] We'll, we'll mop." And, uh, well, they comped the room. [03:20:06.929 – 03:20:15.837] And we got word to the guy- He sends me a money order. [03:20:15.837 – 03:20:19.217] Well, it's hard to, it's hard to deal with a money order. [03:20:19.217 – 03:20:20.597] Now, he knew what he was doing. [03:20:20.597 – 03:20:23.337] Sent me a money order for a hundred and fifty bucks. [03:20:23.337 – 03:20:27.957] So we deposited it and sent him a check for a hundred and fifty bucks.

[03:20:27.957 – 03:20:33.317] The guy's persistent that he's gon- he's gon buy that service. [03:20:33.317 – 03:20:38.217] And, and I was kind to him because, uh, he's just not well-informed. [03:20:38.217 – 03:20:40.097] He's not malicious or… [03:20:40.097 – 03:20:42.017] He-he's the guy's sober thirty years. [03:20:42.017 – 03:20:44.437] He ought to know better, but he doesn't. [03:20:44.437 – 03:20:54.777] And so I sent it back and said, "No, no, it just doesn't work that way." Because what– And I used the words, I said, "What that would do would be to negate the gift, and I'd rather have the gift."

[03:20:54.777 – 03:21:01.597] So it's subtle, you know, about those things of, of that we're, we're, we're not professional. [03:21:01.597 – 03:21:02.577] We don't sell this. [03:21:02.577 – 03:21:06.857] And, you know, if we sell videos here or CDs here, that's fine. [03:21:06.857 – 03:21:10.917] But I don't expect those to wind up on c– on, on, on eBay. [03:21:10.917 – 03:21:12.977] This is done as a service. [03:21:12.977 – 03:21:15.797] I know that there's some value to, to, to this kind of a thing. [03:21:15.797 – 03:21:21.537] And I've had too many people tell me that whether it made sense or not, it was interesting to listen to a different voice.

[03:21:21.537 – 03:21:25.017] And, and so there, there's value in those things, and I'm all for it. [03:21:25.017 – 03:21:33.897] I use my full name, uh, because I'm not, I'm not afraid of, of people knowing me, and I don't expect those to be on eBay. [03:21:33.897 – 03:21:38.417] I don't expect them to be, uh, on a public– I've seen them on the shelf at a Kmart. [03:21:38.417 – 03:21:43.357] Uh, it wouldn't be in, in, in, uh, some high-ri- rent district. [03:21:43.357 – 03:21:45.897] Uh, who's got the mic? [03:21:45.897 – 03:21:46.957] Somebody's got it. [03:21:46.957 – 03:21:47.047] I've got it.

[03:21:47.047 – 03:21:47.797] Oh, there he is. [03:21:47.797 – 03:21:48.617] Yeah. [03:21:48.617 – 03:21:51.817] Tom, uh, Penny Pennington, alcoholic. [03:21:51.817 – 03:21:52.127] Penny. [03:21:52.127 – 03:21:53.397] Mm. [03:21:53.397 – 03:21:54.917] I have a question along those lines. [03:21:54.917 – 03:22:05.037] There are, um, a few sites on the web where you can download speaker tapes, and most of the speakers that are on those sites do not [03:22:05.037 – 03:22:10.757] know that their talks are available to anybody who downloads them onto their computer. [03:22:10.757 – 03:22:12.497] Can you speak to that? [03:22:12.497 – 03:22:19.477] Yeah, I'm trying to think- Some of them, some of them will remove your talk- Yeah …if you send them an email and request that they do that.

[03:22:19.477 – 03:22:21.317] Some of them just ignore your email. [03:22:21.317 – 03:22:21.796] Yeah. [03:22:21.796 – 03:22:22.687] The speakers. [03:22:22.687 – 03:22:28.797] Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm pondering that now, Penny, because it– I think it is something we're gonna have to deal with somehow or other. [03:22:28.797 – 03:22:32.357] And, and, and how we'll do it, I don't know, but that genie is out of the bottle. [03:22:32.357 – 03:22:35.437] Uh, the- Five minutes. [03:22:35.437 – 03:22:36.317] Okay, five minutes. [03:22:36.317 – 03:22:37.357] The, um… [03:22:37.357 – 03:22:45.197] So I don't know what to do, but I know I'm really concerned about it because it does violate, you know, some pretty important principles.

[03:22:45.197 – 03:22:51.097] And, you know, I'm, I'm all for people having access and this kind of thing and being able to download free and that kind of stuff. [03:22:51.097 – 03:22:52.837] I'm all for that. [03:22:52.837 – 03:23:00.997] But how on earth we can do that and keep the integrity of anonymity and, and commercialization and all that is a big, big problem. [03:23:00.997 – 03:23:05.217] Uh, Illinois just did a conference. [03:23:05.217 – 03:23:11.616] I was up there for the convention, and it was dealing with sponsorship, service, and self-support in a changing world.

[03:23:11.616 – 03:23:14.357] Uh, it was, it was a… [03:23:14.357 – 03:23:17.017] No, that was New York, but it, it stayed in New York. [03:23:17.017 – 03:23:23.937] But that's a really interesting kind of a theme for a conference, but I think that's exactly what it could do, is take a look at emerging world. [03:23:23.937 – 03:23:31.557] There's good news in it, like the guy in Kenya, but there's bad news about hucksterism and things that just sort of make their way in. [03:23:31.557 – 03:23:35.697] So I hope, I hope all, all of you, we're the group conscience, you know.

[03:23:35.697 – 03:23:41.697] And, and I hope all of us will, will take that to heart, that those are troubling things that are, that are rapping on the door. [03:23:41.697 – 03:23:47.857] Um, well, I tell you what, you know, worry with me, love. [03:23:47.857 – 03:23:50.737] That's only thing I can tell you is the, um… [03:23:50.737 – 03:23:53.617] We'll, we gonna break right now. [03:23:53.617 – 03:24:01.377] Uh, we'll, we'll break now, and then, uh, when we come back, we'll, we'll jam a whole bunch into just a short time. [03:24:01.377 – 03:24:02.257] Okay. [03:24:02.257 – 03:24:08.007] All right, Tom.

[03:24:08.007 – 03:24:08.007] Thank you. [03:24:08.007 – 03:24:11.777] Well, we're headed for the home stretch, and, uh, the, uh… [03:24:11.777 – 03:24:13.827] And thank you very much. [03:24:13.827 – 03:24:15.517] Y'all, y'all been just a great group. [03:24:15.517 – 03:24:20.117] Uh, you know, sometimes people tend to go brain dead on you when you're, you're doing traditions. [03:24:20.117 – 03:24:23.317] But yeah, you guys have been great and tuned in. [03:24:23.317 – 03:24:31.437] You know, I've learned a long time ago when working with crowds, you can tell when you're through because a strange metaphysical thing happens. [03:24:31.437 – 03:24:35.217] You can see a kind of a, just a shade drops over the eyes.

[03:24:35.217 – 03:24:37.517] You know, they're, they're still open, but they just kind of… [03:24:37.517 – 03:24:41.897] You can talk all you want to, but you're done. [03:24:41.897 – 03:24:43.617] I mean, you are flat done. [03:24:43.617 – 03:24:46.717] And so you guys have really been alert with it. [03:24:46.717 – 03:24:53.077] Um, we're not– Well, we do, we're gonna do four on this session and still finish on time. [03:24:53.077 – 03:24:56.457] Um, that– There've been a- [03:24:57.161 – 03:25:07.221] A, a, a lot of, a lot of things that we've talked about that when you start thinking about solutions, you know, how do you go about getting these things?

[03:25:07.221 – 03:25:15.661] The, the, the next one particularly I, I think is where you start putting together solutions in an effective kind of way. [03:25:15.661 – 03:25:19.621] Uh, it's, it's, um, it's a little bit… [03:25:19.621 – 03:25:24.661] It's, it's one of those kind of cryptic things which says, "A.A. [03:25:24.661 – 03:25:34.841] as such ought never be organized, but we may create service boards and committees directly responsible [03:25:34.841 – 03:25:37.381] to those they serve." A.A. [03:25:37.381 – 03:25:38.121] as such. [03:25:38.121 – 03:25:40.431] You know, and that's kind of like in the second one, what is A.A. [03:25:40.431 – 03:25:41.171] as such?

[03:25:41.171 – 03:25:50.881] And, and, and it's that, for my money, it's that essential thing of, of, of what our primary purpose is about, is, is one alcoholic carrying it to another. [03:25:50.881 – 03:25:58.861] And, uh, now, that ought never be organized for the reason we talked about earlier, that everybody's got your own particular approach to this. [03:25:58.861 – 03:26:00.701] There's no magic bullet for it. [03:26:00.701 – 03:26:08.681] Uh, I know people do it every way under the sun and, uh, and, and so how to do that, uh, I don't even have a set way for the way I do it.

[03:26:08.681 – 03:26:09.901] 'Cause you never know. [03:26:09.901 – 03:26:13.001] I never called on two alcoholics that were alike. [03:26:13.001 – 03:26:14.581] They're all a little different. [03:26:14.581 – 03:26:24.601] And, and so what I've got to do is respond, not try to make them some clone in the AA army, but I've gotta, gotta respond to what's in front of me and do what [03:26:24.601 – 03:26:27.841] is, is, is on my heart and mind to do at that point. [03:26:27.841 – 03:26:33.501] And, uh, try to, to, to reach through and create that bond of trust that's so important.

[03:26:33.501 – 03:26:36.261] So that ought not ever be organized. [03:26:36.261 – 03:26:42.541] But we may create boards, service boards and committees directly responsible to those they serve. [03:26:42.541 – 03:26:52.741] I, I mentioned things in, in my, in, in my home group that are integral to our group and, and integral to really what this tradition says, that [03:26:52.741 – 03:27:01.401] if I really wanna be effective in my work, I've gotta do more than just my own personal magic. [03:27:01.401 – 03:27:10.341] Now, we were, we were talking a little bit about that there may be something that you'll, that you'll latch onto that you really wanna use as your primary tool.

[03:27:10.341 – 03:27:12.081] And that's perfectly okay. [03:27:12.081 – 03:27:19.381] But I, I tell you a thing that prods me into further action is, uh, somewhere in the book, and I can't tell you where it is. [03:27:19.381 – 03:27:24.081] If, if I told you, it'd probably be a lie because I, I, I know no page numbers. [03:27:24.081 – 03:27:24.541] It, it… [03:27:24.541 – 03:27:30.401] I know eighty-three and eighty-four 'cause I've heard it so many times, and page thirty because it's my favorite page. [03:27:30.401 – 03:27:33.441] But other than that, uh, I'd be making it up.

[03:27:33.441 – 03:27:43.081] So somewhere in there, there's a thing that says that, you know, it's okay to be working on ourselves, but our real function is to be of maximum service to God and those around us. [03:27:43.081 – 03:27:45.501] And, uh, and that, and that says that. [03:27:45.501 – 03:27:55.621] If that's more than just a cliché to me, if I really wanna be of maximum service, then I believe that one thing I have to do [03:27:55.621 – 03:27:56.921] is get out of my own shadow. [03:27:56.921 – 03:28:04.421] I've gotta do more than just what I can put in front of me personally if I wanna be of maximum service.

[03:28:04.421 – 03:28:10.241] Now, I can be of maximum service to one person, but that's a very finite way to do it, isn't it? [03:28:10.241 – 03:28:14.041] You know, if I was doing it just that way, I wouldn't be working with a guy in Kenya. [03:28:14.041 – 03:28:14.561] You know? [03:28:14.561 – 03:28:22.521] That if I wanna be of maximum service, I've gotta be open to other ways, and I have to think about ways to get the work done. [03:28:22.521 – 03:28:29.821] Like, I identified my group as not only my home base, but it's where I do my work.

[03:28:29.821 – 03:28:32.541] My group is my workplace. [03:28:32.541 – 03:28:34.461] And it's a part of who I am. [03:28:34.461 – 03:28:35.201] It's, it's the… [03:28:35.201 – 03:28:40.081] That's where my group delivers on the promises I make. [03:28:40.081 – 03:28:46.021] When I tell a guy there's a solution, I want my group to be prepared to pr- to provide that solution. [03:28:46.021 – 03:28:51.541] So I have to think beyond just me and, and then just to keep on going out on that. [03:28:51.541 – 03:29:01.611] And so when, when I look at that tr- tradition, I l- I, I like to sort of get focused in on it in, in terms of, of, of

[03:29:01.611 – 03:29:03.961] sort of the action that, that comes out of it. [03:29:03.961 – 03:29:06.281] You know, I'm somebody… [03:29:06.281 – 03:29:08.241] I made a little note, and it's true, it is me. [03:29:08.241 – 03:29:10.841] I love spontaneity. [03:29:10.841 – 03:29:12.301] You know, I just love that. [03:29:12.301 – 03:29:17.881] I, I think it's just great to just be react to stuff right there and then just have a good time and be loose and all that. [03:29:17.881 – 03:29:22.501] I especially like spontaneity if it's well-planned. [03:29:22.501 – 03:29:33.061] That, that sounds like a contradiction in terms, but it's, it's just like I was saying earlier about structure, that when structure's out of the way,

[03:29:33.061 – 03:29:34.321] it takes the anxiety out. [03:29:34.321 – 03:29:44.061] Just like Deb just went over with what our agenda is, and she's already told me that there will be mortal pain if I don't follow that exactly the way she said. [03:29:44.061 – 03:29:48.081] See, what that does is it relieves any uncertainty. [03:29:48.081 – 03:29:51.621] You have some sitting here saying, "Well, when is this idiot gonna get through? [03:29:51.621 – 03:29:55.321] Man, it's only twelve." And, uh, so it takes that out. [03:29:55.321 – 03:29:57.301] And she told us what we're gonna do. [03:29:57.301 – 03:29:59.301] Now, my job is to do that.

[03:29:59.301 – 03:30:04.651] And so when we do, we can relax and enjoy it and not be s- you know, uneasy with it. [03:30:04.651 – 03:30:06.541] So, and that's what I like about structure. [03:30:06.541 – 03:30:16.381] And so, but, uh, uh, and, and so it's easy to be spontaneous if I know how the game works. [03:30:16.381 – 03:30:20.881] But if it's always a matter of trying to figure out how it works, I don't get the work done. [03:30:20.881 – 03:30:27.851] Uh, so it's, it's, so, so what we're talking about in this one is how do we get our services done?

[03:30:27.851 – 03:30:30.621] Create service boards and committees. [03:30:30.621 – 03:30:35.141] And, and, and my, you know, my group is a… [03:30:35.141 – 03:30:42.381] It, it is a, an example, but it's one of many thousands of examples of a group that's organized for purpose. [03:30:42.381 – 03:30:45.061] You know, it's, it's organized to achieve our primary purpose. [03:30:45.061 – 03:30:55.081] I, I'll tell you real quick, uh, how we went to this, and I know that, that some folks are, are, are, are looking at, at developing groups or looking at ways to put a new wrinkle in your group

[03:30:55.081 – 03:30:55.781] or something like that. [03:30:55.781 – 03:30:58.951] Let me, let me give you just a real quick shot of how we did it. [03:30:58.951 – 03:30:59.841] It was real simple. [03:30:59.841 – 03:31:03.901] Um, most profound things are simple. [03:31:03.901 – 03:31:12.457] And it's– What we did, uh, I was doing a lot of big book workshops and, and what happens when folks go through that, they'll tend to get pumped up. [03:31:12.457 – 03:31:16.357] They'll, they'll tend to get sort of, sort of s-spirited up to do something. [03:31:16.357 – 03:31:21.857] And if you don't have an adequate vehicle for that energy, it'll tend to dissipate.

[03:31:21.857 – 03:31:26.277] So you gotta have something that'll channel that and sort of put that, that energy into motion. [03:31:26.277 – 03:31:35.457] And so we, we, we, we sort of built up a little, little group of folk that had gone through that experience, and they started bugging me about starting a group. [03:31:35.457 – 03:31:38.757] And I was, and I was the founder of the group I was in. [03:31:38.757 – 03:31:42.837] So, uh, it was pretty hard to, um, de– well, desert the ship, you know. [03:31:42.837 – 03:31:51.057] And, uh, so they– But they kept telling me I, it, it, what, that they really needed to get some place to go and, and, uh, so I thought about it.

[03:31:51.057 – 03:31:53.697] My, the, my group had settled into a niche. [03:31:53.697 – 03:31:54.557] It had found its niche. [03:31:54.557 – 03:31:55.517] It was doing very well. [03:31:55.517 – 03:32:05.557] And, and so they wanted to explore and do some stuff and get more action and, and so I t– I said, "All right, guys, if you wanna do it, if you really wanna start a group, I'm [03:32:05.557 – 03:32:05.877] with you. [03:32:05.877 – 03:32:16.397] If you wanna start a meeting, count me out, but I'm, I'm for a group." And so what we did, ten of us, we sat down and, uh, and we basically

[03:32:16.397 – 03:32:22.217] went through a quick drill that, uh, that's been just, uh, profoundly effective. [03:32:22.217 – 03:32:22.857] I, I love it. [03:32:22.857 – 03:32:24.777] I'm, I, I love brainstorming. [03:32:24.777 – 03:32:26.977] I love free thinking. [03:32:26.977 – 03:32:36.577] You know, I find that I am most creative when I'm spontaneous, when I just sorta say what I think, like answering that fellow that asked the question about the, the, the… [03:32:36.577 – 03:32:40.627] Tell us more about that sense of purpose, and I just instinctively responded. [03:32:40.627 – 03:32:44.717] I didn't filter it through a bunch of, of editorializing and critiquing.

[03:32:44.717 – 03:32:48.997] I just said what I really thought, and it really was what I thought. [03:32:48.997 – 03:32:54.777] Usually, my first thought is my best one, and then it goes downhill from there. [03:32:54.777 – 03:33:01.697] Because what I do is start to consider it and think it over, and the more I think it over, the more screwed up it gets. [03:33:01.697 – 03:33:11.477] By the way, one man in this room took a fifth step with me at the break and confessed to me with a solemn oath of confidentiality that he's a lawyer.

[03:33:11.477 – 03:33:15.677] I will tell no one. [03:33:15.677 – 03:33:17.117] I'll take that to my grave. [03:33:17.117 – 03:33:20.257] And apologize for beating up lawyers. [03:33:20.257 – 03:33:22.417] I also sponsor some weird psychiatrists, too. [03:33:22.417 – 03:33:26.577] But, so anyway, weird is in whatever package you find. [03:33:26.577 – 03:33:34.477] Uh, and so, and we pulled this group together and, and, and, and I was chairing it. [03:33:34.477 – 03:33:38.997] And, and so I ask everybody, and we c– we do the same thing right here, I guarantee you. [03:33:38.997 – 03:33:45.917] I ask everybody to think of if we're going to a group, what is one quality or component that you would insist on having?

[03:33:45.917 – 03:33:49.577] Something you really believe is important for a group to have. [03:33:49.577 – 03:33:51.837] I threw out the first one. [03:33:51.837 – 03:33:52.597] I put structure. [03:33:52.597 – 03:33:55.637] It just was kinda second nature, and I just, I put that up. [03:33:55.637 – 03:34:02.837] And then, uh, brainstorming, once you get it rolling, it's hard to stop it because people get in the spirit of it, you know. [03:34:02.837 – 03:34:04.777] They just start coming out with things they hadn't even thought about. [03:34:04.777 – 03:34:15.057] So we, in twelve minutes, you talk about endless business meetings, in twelve minutes, we listed nineteen things that we thought were essential to have in that group.

[03:34:15.057 – 03:34:19.997] I added a twentieth one arbitrarily, rule sixty-two. [03:34:19.997 – 03:34:21.797] Don't take yourself too seriously. [03:34:21.797 – 03:34:28.037] That's, and but, you know, see, what we had in that was here's what we wanna get done. [03:34:28.037 – 03:34:31.717] We don't wanna form a group and see what happens. [03:34:31.717 – 03:34:33.237] We got a mission. [03:34:33.237 – 03:34:35.357] You know, here's what we're trying to get done. [03:34:35.357 – 03:34:39.517] And, and what we had on that list is, is about what you would expect. [03:34:39.517 – 03:34:49.907] Uh, w-welcoming people to the fellowship, sound, solid introduction to AA, diversity in our speakers, some of them I mentioned earlier, uh, real service,

[03:34:49.907 – 03:34:51.277] real action. [03:34:51.277 – 03:34:54.377] You know, we'd built on the fact that action was a matic– magic word. [03:34:54.377 – 03:34:58.437] We wanted everybody to legitimately have a chance for a job if they wanted it. [03:34:58.437 – 03:35:02.597] And so we went in with that, with that notion. [03:35:02.597 – 03:35:04.157] So you see what I'm getting at? [03:35:04.157 – 03:35:05.597] The, the, we're talking about the quality. [03:35:05.597 – 03:35:06.796] Here are the conditions. [03:35:06.796 – 03:35:12.617] So then it was just simply a matter of constructing a group to, to, to meet those conditions that we wanted to have.

[03:35:12.617 – 03:35:14.817] And what we did, very simple. [03:35:14.817 – 03:35:20.217] We, we had two meetings, and then the other one was, the final one was just, uh, weren't meetings of the group. [03:35:20.217 – 03:35:21.517] They were meetings of planning. [03:35:21.517 – 03:35:28.667] The second one we, uh, wrote down the, uh, how would we provide the action? [03:35:28.667 – 03:35:33.877] And, and what we did was we drew a circle, not a triangle, but a circle. [03:35:33.877 – 03:35:39.177] And in fact, you'll find this in the, uh, ninety-one… [03:35:39.177 – 03:35:43.787] There's a ninety-one third legacy manual that's got this in it.

[03:35:44.299 – 03:35:48.459] So it's not just an I-Ivaster invention or even my cohorts. [03:35:48.459 – 03:35:58.478] You'll find it in the Third Legacy manual about what a well-rounded group looks like, and it's just a circle, and it lists all the [03:35:58.479 – 03:36:08.619] stuff of a group, you know, that, that you got a CPC committee, PI, treatment, programs, [03:36:08.619 – 03:36:16.859] grapevine, newcomers, on and on. [03:36:16.859 – 03:36:21.299] Just, I mean, the typical kind of things you come up with that'll help us get those jobs done. [03:36:21.299 – 03:36:22.898] It was really… [03:36:22.898 – 03:36:33.019] We didn't really plan it this way, but there were ten committees, and so it happened there were ten members in the planning

[03:36:33.019 – 03:36:33.339] group. [03:36:33.339 – 03:36:40.469] Somebody said, "Where in the world are we gonna get people to fill those committees?" I said, "My God, man, it's already solved. [03:36:40.469 – 03:36:47.239] Ten people, ten committees, take one." So we all took a committee and took a job. [03:36:47.239 – 03:36:50.159] And so we were functioning before we ever met. [03:36:50.159 – 03:36:51.639] See what I'm talking about? [03:36:51.639 – 03:36:52.659] You put it together. [03:36:52.659 – 03:36:54.059] You want action, let's have action. [03:36:54.059 – 03:37:02.619] And so tho- all those things with the, the typical stuff was the, the chair, and the secretary, and treasurer, you know, the other things that would round it out.

[03:37:02.619 – 03:37:09.119] And so what that was, uh, was that's what produced the primary purpose group. [03:37:09.119 – 03:37:13.039] And our purpose was to do those twenty things that we said. [03:37:13.039 – 03:37:17.599] And, and so what we had was exactly what that tradition says. [03:37:17.599 – 03:37:23.959] We create service boards and committees directly responsible to the people we serve. [03:37:23.959 – 03:37:26.799] And so that's exactly what that existed. [03:37:26.799 – 03:37:31.539] Every one of those committees are autonomous entities within our group. [03:37:31.539 – 03:37:35.579] In the CFC, the Correctional Facilities Group, I'm the chair of that right now.

[03:37:35.579 – 03:37:38.199] Our group is autonomous. [03:37:38.199 – 03:37:42.999] We take care of everything in that service unless there's something that requires assistance from the group. [03:37:42.999 – 03:37:48.559] Like if we need literature or something like that, we'll go and say, "Hey, we need to, to buy some books," or whatever. [03:37:48.559 – 03:37:58.299] And CPC, if we're gonna do a project, and we need somebody that's got a real knack for dealing with docs or lawyers or, or whatever, that, you know, is what we'll do is do that.

[03:37:58.299 – 03:38:00.039] So you, you see what I'm talking about? [03:38:00.039 – 03:38:05.739] You, you've got a s- a service center that provides all the action you could possibly want. [03:38:05.739 – 03:38:08.899] And what a huge, huge thing that is. [03:38:08.899 – 03:38:15.579] So that's an example of, of, of how you can take something to be effective in the work. [03:38:15.579 – 03:38:19.199] You know, some of the things that we've talked about, and I'm not selling anything. [03:38:19.199 – 03:38:20.639] I can give it away. [03:38:20.639 – 03:38:22.918] But if you, uh… [03:38:22.918 – 03:38:28.179] Some of the stuff we were talking about, think about it in this context, you know.

[03:38:28.179 – 03:38:38.099] If, if you, if you really want to solve some vexing problems, you, you, you gotta do more than just see who talks the loudest and, and get into debate society. [03:38:38.099 – 03:38:48.199] And so if you could structure a program or organize a group or set up things in your group to achieve these things that'll focus on something, uh, [03:38:48.199 – 03:38:49.659] th-that's a good way to address them. [03:38:49.659 – 03:38:59.979] And, um, so it, it's a, a good way to start trying to solve problems without just litigation.

[03:38:59.979 – 03:39:02.679] Hey, you know, I don't wanna point because it's hard to know who it is. [03:39:02.679 – 03:39:11.079] But without just sort of back, jousting back and forth, where you start trying to look at how do we carry out our primary purpose. [03:39:11.079 – 03:39:15.199] And so I'd, I'd just submit that if those… [03:39:15.199 – 03:39:20.999] By the way, those twenty things that we listed on there are– we, we call it. [03:39:20.999 – 03:39:23.639] It's, it's a bad name, but we, we call them goals. [03:39:23.639 – 03:39:26.339] That's what we wanted to con- get done in our group.

[03:39:26.339 – 03:39:30.379] And, uh, if you do group inventories, you can appreciate… [03:39:30.379 – 03:39:30.679] Thanks. [03:39:30.679 – 03:39:37.979] You can appreciate it makes group inventory a snap because we don't have to po-po-ponder questions. [03:39:37.979 – 03:39:39.099] All we do is take our goal. [03:39:39.099 – 03:39:40.059] How are we doing on that? [03:39:40.059 – 03:39:46.539] This year, uh, we're gonna add one word to each of those goals, and that's the word effective. [03:39:46.539 – 03:39:49.639] Not only are we doing it, but is it working? [03:39:49.639 – 03:39:55.939] Is our newcomer in place, and is it having the impact we want it to have on newcomers?

[03:39:55.939 – 03:39:57.299] All we have to do is look around to see. [03:39:57.299 – 03:39:58.879] We don't have to do a research project. [03:39:58.879 – 03:40:00.998] We'll either see the folk or we don't. [03:40:00.998 – 03:40:04.259] And so we wanna examine stuff from the standpoint of effectiveness. [03:40:04.259 – 03:40:14.339] And, you know, it's a good way to, to do something so that that tradition becomes a plan of action more than just some sort of a, of an organizational [03:40:14.339 – 03:40:15.379] bureaucratic shuffling. [03:40:15.379 – 03:40:18.599] It's a, it's a real vibrant tool to get stuff done.

[03:40:18.599 – 03:40:24.519] And the, uh… [03:40:24.519 – 03:40:35.429] Yeah. [03:40:35.429 – 03:40:43.389] The, the, that, well, this workshop is an example of, of, of an expression of this kind of thing, where somebody had a notion. [03:40:43.389 – 03:40:53.429] They wanted to do a workshop to address some issues that you don't normally address in reg- in regular meetings, where we start getting into a little de-deeper water, hopefully, about some things that, that [03:40:53.429 – 03:40:57.579] are a concern, uh, to us in, in, in this, in our work in this fellowship as a whole.

[03:40:57.579 – 03:40:59.819] And it does take organization. [03:40:59.819 – 03:41:01.399] It takes something to get it done. [03:41:01.399 – 03:41:03.979] And, and so that's vital kind of work. [03:41:03.979 – 03:41:14.119] Um, I, I tell you a, a couple, just a couple of things that, that can spin out of this stuff and, [03:41:14.119 – 03:41:16.479] uh, uh, about organizing and carrying out. [03:41:16.479 – 03:41:25.359] And I swear I'm not, uh, picking on attorneys, but I, I do a little CPC thing about once a quarter at a law school down in our state. [03:41:25.359 – 03:41:36.039] And, uh, what they wanna know is how AA can be a factor or, or how we can deal with the problems that are dealt with routinely

[03:41:36.039 – 03:41:36.939] in the court system. [03:41:36.939 – 03:41:43.769] And so I go down there, and, um, it, it, it's always the same kind of thing. [03:41:43.769 – 03:41:47.819] These are lawyers that are just finishing law school and are getting ready to go out and practice. [03:41:47.819 – 03:41:57.299] If there's anybody in the world that's a lightning rod for, for seeing alcoholics, I guarantee it's the folks in the legal system 'cause you gonna see a lot of us there. [03:41:57.299 – 03:42:00.058] And, uh, whether it's civil or criminal, you gonna see a lot of us there.

[03:42:00.058 – 03:42:08.989] And so what I do is just meet with these folks trying to talk about- How AA can be a resource in that, how to utilize it and that kind of thing, just getting them familiar. [03:42:08.989 – 03:42:12.889] Uh, they always want me to talk about something else. [03:42:12.889 – 03:42:19.829] They always want me to get into, uh, legalization of marijuana, you know, God knows it. [03:42:19.829 – 03:42:26.729] But I have to be awfully careful that I don't get off on some rabbit track in a, in a different direction.

[03:42:26.729 – 03:42:29.649] But it's, it's a vital kind of a thing, and it grows out of this. [03:42:29.649 – 03:42:33.369] Uh, you never know what's gonna come out of these little efforts. [03:42:33.369 – 03:42:39.449] Uh, I'll tell you one thing that's come out of that, and, uh, and, and, and I will have to rush myself a little bit. [03:42:39.449 – 03:42:47.709] But it's kinda important when you wanna be of maximum service, you don't have to have ambition, you just have to have willingness and, and that communicates to people.

[03:42:47.709 – 03:42:48.849] You don't have to advertise it. [03:42:48.849 – 03:42:49.849] It, it just, uh… [03:42:49.849 – 03:42:54.369] In that law school, I, uh, I got a… [03:42:54.369 – 03:42:59.689] They asked me, they've got a program in North Carolina, might have one in California. [03:42:59.689 – 03:43:07.089] They call it PALS, P-A-L-S, and I'm not sure what it stands for, but something like be nice to lawyers or something. [03:43:07.089 – 03:43:08.269] Yeah. [03:43:08.269 – 03:43:13.169] What it is, is the capture the lawyer program is what it is. [03:43:13.169 – 03:43:22.749] And, uh, so what they do is get lawyers that are in trouble with booze, then they capture them and put them into a monitoring or treatment and all this kind of stuff.

[03:43:22.749 – 03:43:24.109] It's done all over. [03:43:24.109 – 03:43:31.549] Well, the fellow that was heading up that stuff I was doing down there, uh, got– was real concerned about that effort. [03:43:31.549 – 03:43:37.109] It just so happened he was heading up, he was the, the leader of that lawyer program. [03:43:37.109 – 03:43:41.169] And so he wanted me to ex– stretch my legs a little more. [03:43:41.169 – 03:43:45.109] He asked me to speak at the state conference of, uh, of lawyers. [03:43:45.109 – 03:43:48.009] Now, you talk about a country boy being in high cotton.

[03:43:48.009 – 03:43:58.129] We were at some swanky club, and I had dinner that, that night before the meeting with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court [03:43:58.129 – 03:44:02.249] of, of North Carolina, and two other justices and a couple other judges. [03:44:02.249 – 03:44:07.569] And so we're sitting there talking polite tail to tail, uh, yeah, stuff. [03:44:07.569 – 03:44:12.349] And we're all good old boys, but we just sort of get in that rarefied atmosphere. [03:44:12.349 – 03:44:14.109] We start talking prissy, you know. [03:44:14.109 – 03:44:17.689] And, and so we were having a right good time, and they introduced me.

[03:44:17.689 – 03:44:26.689] So I got up speaking, did proper acknowledgement to everybody and talked what a privilege it was to be having dinner with the Chief Justice and the other fellows. [03:44:26.689 – 03:44:36.709] And I said, "If we had been having this dinner a few years ago, it would have been for my last meal." You [03:44:36.709 – 03:44:38.889] all don't know what I'm talking about, and they didn't have a clue. [03:44:38.889 – 03:44:45.029] Uh, they did when I got through telling my story, and they agreed with the, the sentiment.

[03:44:45.029 – 03:44:52.409] Yeah, Chief, Chief Justice, I knew we'd been to some meeting, not AA meeting, we'd been to some meetings together, and, uh, a great guy. [03:44:52.409 – 03:45:01.189] And, and, and so when we finished that conference, they, they asked me to hang around a little bit and see what they were doing with this thing of trying to do something with doc. [03:45:01.189 – 03:45:05.009] And so, you know, what I saw, and this doesn't require genius. [03:45:05.009 – 03:45:07.529] I mean, it doesn't require real organizational insight.

[03:45:07.529 – 03:45:15.269] It just re- requires sort of putting yourself in the, in the place of the person who's being sort of bounced through a system. [03:45:15.269 – 03:45:25.349] And so what was happening was that, and I'd had this impression that the, these well-intended efforts were very often going for naught [03:45:25.349 – 03:45:34.649] because the process was so demanding that they went through that it would just almost sabotage the, the end result. [03:45:34.649 – 03:45:37.289] And what you're trying to do is help get people get into recovery.

[03:45:37.289 – 03:45:47.819] And, uh, one of the things they were doing, which didn't interest me much, but it intrigued me a great deal, was they were using [03:45:47.819 – 03:45:52.729] recovered lawyers as sponsor/monitor. [03:45:52.729 – 03:46:00.349] Now, I would submit to you that this guy's belief, those are mutually exclusive terms. [03:46:00.349 – 03:46:02.429] One or the other. [03:46:02.429 – 03:46:06.729] So I'm listening to that, and what I'm listening to is a bunch… [03:46:06.729 – 03:46:08.309] You may have run into this stuff sometime. [03:46:08.309 – 03:46:12.409] But what I'm listening to are a bunch of guys that are lost in a gray zone.

[03:46:12.409 – 03:46:15.589] They're, they're lost in a trying to make a transition. [03:46:15.589 – 03:46:20.049] And so what they, what they were doing was truly well-intentioned. [03:46:20.049 – 03:46:22.749] I knew many of the people, well-intentioned. [03:46:22.749 – 03:46:30.979] But in the process of it, the lawyers were winding up with– they were extending that to the point that it started- [03:46:31.177 – 03:46:33.977] To interfere with the recovery. [03:46:33.977 – 03:46:41.637] It started to move beyond its, its appropriate termination point and moving on in to recu– into, into the recovery. [03:46:41.637 – 03:46:51.997] In all honesty, I think that was done primarily because of our abdication of responsibility to reach out more aggressively and try to meet those folk at an appropriate

[03:46:51.997 – 03:46:52.377] place. [03:46:52.377 – 03:46:55.817] Uh, that may sound like a bunch of gobbly-goop, but think about that some. [03:46:55.817 – 03:46:59.636] They were extending their efforts to make up for our absence. [03:46:59.636 – 03:47:03.037] We just were not doing proactive work to try to deal with that. [03:47:03.037 – 03:47:06.057] And so I, I s-sorta stuck that away. [03:47:06.057 – 03:47:16.067] Later on, I was talking with a guy that direct the program af-after I got unemployed, and he said, "Well, what are you doing now that you're unemployed?" And I said, "Man, I'm having a ball." And so I told him

[03:47:16.067 – 03:47:17.177] a bunch of stuff I was doing. [03:47:17.177 – 03:47:21.717] And I said, "One of the things I'm interested in," named that, and boy, he just perked up. [03:47:21.717 – 03:47:27.777] He said, "Tell me what you got in mind." And so I tell him a real simple idea. [03:47:27.777 – 03:47:37.917] I said, "What I'm thinking about is maybe getting a bunch of you guys at one side of the table and some of us on the other side, and let's just talk about how [03:47:37.917 – 03:47:47.917] we can make a good transition from your tender mercies to ours." And he said, "Man, that is a wonderful idea." I said, "The only thing I

[03:47:47.917 – 03:47:58.077] ask you to make sure I'm at that table." And, and so, see, a, a simple little thing where you take a, a s– take a simple structure, and then when you're [03:47:58.077 – 03:48:03.457] thinking about our primary purpose, to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers. [03:48:03.457 – 03:48:06.157] That guy's suffering. [03:48:06.157 – 03:48:16.377] The caretakers were suffering because they're trying to do something, and they're just having so much difficulty getting through that, that sort of competing interests [03:48:16.377 – 03:48:18.097] that y– I think we can make a difference.

[03:48:18.097 – 03:48:28.237] The only thing that we're hesitant about right now is, uh, when you do that, when you attack something like that, you've gotta pre– be prepared [03:48:28.237 – 03:48:32.377] with a resource ba-ba-base that will reliably respond to the need. [03:48:32.377 – 03:48:42.517] And so when we get to the point where we feel like we can adequately respond to the needs so that if an attorney gets caught in that, we can, without a lot of fear, [03:48:42.517 – 03:48:45.357] contact somebody that'll pick up on that and help that transition.

[03:48:45.357 – 03:48:54.357] But I, I tell you that just as one simple example of a thing where if you wanna really push into some, some areas that need to be done. [03:48:54.357 – 03:48:56.117] That's true not only of lawyers. [03:48:56.117 – 03:49:06.137] I sponsor a couple of docs, both of whom went through that sort of purgatory-like thing o-of this role conflict and, and, uh, and, [03:49:06.137 – 03:49:08.887] and, well, uh, both of them are, are through it now. [03:49:08.887 – 03:49:10.697] But they survived. [03:49:10.697 – 03:49:12.347] And, and, but, but it took some…

[03:49:12.347 – 03:49:16.257] Anyway, it's a challenging of thing. [03:49:16.257 – 03:49:26.317] And, and so an awful lot of alcoholics get trapped in those well-intended things, and what's missing is us at the table saying, "Hey, let's do it this way." Cooperate simply means [03:49:26.317 – 03:49:27.217] to work together. [03:49:27.217 – 03:49:27.947] That's all. [03:49:27.947 – 03:49:31.597] And a good cooperative relationship can make a big difference. [03:49:31.597 – 03:49:40.337] So I hope you just think about it, because some of the alcoholics we might wanna reach may think they're not in trouble, but there's some real big troubles in some of those capturing programs.

[03:49:40.337 – 03:49:46.237] I don't care whether it's the professional level, if it's driving under– driving under the influence people, court cases, all that. [03:49:46.237 – 03:49:56.317] All of them have the same kind of dynamics, and they're things we can deal with if we start to, to think about how to carry this out of our own shadow [03:49:56.317 – 03:50:00.277] and start to reach out to the folks who are harpooned wherever, wherever that might be. [03:50:00.277 – 03:50:07.197] So anyway, I've, I've got a couple more hours on that that I'll save for next time.

[03:50:07.197 – 03:50:09.607] That's, uh… [03:50:09.607 – 03:50:11.577] It really goes back to, to what I said. [03:50:11.577 – 03:50:20.437] If I really wanna be of maximum service, it's important for me to take not only what's apparent and right in front of me. [03:50:20.437 – 03:50:30.557] It's to take a look at a problem and try to understand the dilemma, and then simply respond with what is a better way. [03:50:30.557 – 03:50:31.616] Simple thing. [03:50:31.616 – 03:50:32.557] Simple thing. [03:50:32.557 – 03:50:36.757] But it can do some profoundly important kinds of work with, with our folks. [03:50:36.757 – 03:50:41.177] Our, our, our brothers and sisters are caught up in, in s- in some places.

[03:50:41.177 – 03:50:49.237] Uh, the, the tenth one is, uh, is about public stuff. [03:50:49.237 – 03:50:50.277] What does it say? [03:50:50.277 – 03:50:55.727] That Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues since the A.A. [03:50:55.727 – 03:50:58.737] name ought never be drawn into public controversy. [03:50:58.737 – 03:51:03.437] And that's, uh, that's a… [03:51:03.437 – 03:51:05.597] It's, it's a challenge for me. [03:51:05.597 – 03:51:07.197] I, I, I know it may be for you. [03:51:07.197 – 03:51:12.597] I, I, I tell you one reason, one thing that introduces some difficulties to, to me with this thing. [03:51:12.597 – 03:51:15.617] I have strong feelings about some stuff.

[03:51:15.617 – 03:51:18.167] A-and, uh, not just in, in prayer. [03:51:18.167 – 03:51:19.097] I have strong feelings here. [03:51:19.097 – 03:51:23.457] But I have strong feelings about the world I live in. [03:51:23.457 – 03:51:28.757] I-I-I've got things that are important to me that I'm concerned about, some that I get angry about. [03:51:28.757 – 03:51:30.977] And, and I'm a citizen. [03:51:30.977 – 03:51:32.977] You know, I'm a free citizen. [03:51:32.977 – 03:51:35.097] I have the right of, of free speech. [03:51:35.097 – 03:51:37.797] I can, I can do anything I wanna do as a citizen. [03:51:37.797 – 03:51:48.237] But in my case, in the interest of this tradition and in the interest of being somebody

[03:51:48.237 – 03:51:53.717] who doesn't do damage in our fellowship, I have to put a muzzle on sometimes. [03:51:53.717 – 03:51:58.537] And I don't like it because I'm a, I'm a flat just blowing up sometimes. [03:51:58.537 – 03:52:00.947] I wanna blast away about something. [03:52:00.947 – 03:52:04.077] But I have allowed myself… [03:52:04.077 – 03:52:05.817] Nobody did it to me. [03:52:05.817 – 03:52:13.857] I have allowed myself t-to become fairly well known in my state, and it's not through just a bunch of publicity seeking or stuff like that. [03:52:13.857 – 03:52:16.227] I'm just active, and, and so I've– I'm, I've…

[03:52:16.227 – 03:52:20.407] Not a community in our state that I haven't been involved with in some way or another. [03:52:20.407 – 03:52:25.217] And, and so that sorta sets up an interesting thing. [03:52:25.217 – 03:52:35.317] If I wanna lambast something or somebody, how can I do it and not insinuate some [03:52:35.317 – 03:52:41.437] representation- Of my group, my fellowship, you know. [03:52:41.437 – 03:52:46.637] Those are things that sort of temper me a little bit in terms of, of what I'll do. [03:52:46.637 – 03:52:53.397] Uh, I, I had a thing a while back, I was real kind of heated up about, about our governor.

[03:52:53.397 – 03:52:56.077] He's my governor. [03:52:56.077 – 03:52:56.917] I voted for him. [03:52:56.917 – 03:52:58.277] They gave the clown some money. [03:52:58.277 – 03:53:05.677] And, uh, he wasn't doing right a-about something. [03:53:05.677 – 03:53:12.897] And, and the spillover thing was it had impact on, on area I was concerned about, like us. [03:53:12.897 – 03:53:14.797] I was real concerned about that. [03:53:14.797 – 03:53:18.117] And I did not like what was going on. [03:53:18.117 – 03:53:28.197] Well, now I, I believe, believe me, I had to think long and hard before I wrote probably one of the, the, the, the, the hard, most

[03:53:28.197 – 03:53:30.767] hard-hitting letters I've ever written to a public official. [03:53:30.767 – 03:53:40.777] And, uh, it was so bad I got my wife to read it and just tell me, "Is this too bad?" And so [03:53:41.337 – 03:53:43.217] she read the thing and was kind of blushing. [03:53:43.217 – 03:53:46.297] And she got through it. [03:53:46.297 – 03:53:55.256] She said, "Well, I know you said what you believe, but I don't believe I'd have put that last paragraph in there." So, so I took it out. [03:53:55.256 – 03:53:56.737] Then I sent it. [03:53:56.737 – 03:53:59.777] But see, now that sounds like a simple kind of thing, doesn't it?

[03:53:59.777 – 03:54:00.977] It sounds like a simple thing. [03:54:00.977 – 03:54:10.997] But before I can do something like that, I got to be doggone sure that I am speaking as one individual citizen, and that I'm not implying [03:54:10.997 – 03:54:15.757] or insinuating or trying to use the weight of anything beyond that. [03:54:15.757 – 03:54:18.137] And so I have to be real careful about that. [03:54:18.137 – 03:54:19.037] You, you may too. [03:54:19.037 – 03:54:20.597] But I, it troubles me. [03:54:20.597 – 03:54:30.677] It troubles me because I am a citizen, and I want to be a, an active person in, in my community, but I always have to be, be, be mindful that I don't drag something

[03:54:30.677 – 03:54:33.497] in that, that I, that I don't want to drag in. [03:54:33.497 – 03:54:37.237] The… [03:54:37.237 – 03:54:45.377] I, the only other thing I would put in that would be, I just, I just throw this in. [03:54:45.377 – 03:54:53.377] I don't know if it was intended in the tradition or not, but I like to throw in gossip, that that's an opinion on an outside issue, too. [03:54:53.377 – 03:55:03.977] And, and gossip, I find that I'm, I like to squeeze it under this tradition because I think it is truly one of the most injurious

[03:55:03.977 – 03:55:05.137] things that can happen. [03:55:05.137 – 03:55:08.197] You know, helping somebody who don't know you're helping them. [03:55:08.197 – 03:55:10.617] That, that is really high-risk stuff. [03:55:10.617 – 03:55:15.197] And, uh, people talk about constructive criticism. [03:55:15.197 – 03:55:17.977] I don't think there's any such thing as constructive criticism. [03:55:17.977 – 03:55:20.237] It's just criticism. [03:55:20.237 – 03:55:21.367] You don't have to apologize for it. [03:55:21.367 – 03:55:22.197] That's what it is. [03:55:22.197 – 03:55:25.397] Whether it's constructive or not depends on how I react to it. [03:55:25.397 – 03:55:26.127] Mm-hmm. [03:55:26.127 – 03:55:29.717] And so it's just not a real valuable kind of a commodity. [03:55:29.717 – 03:55:34.957] And, and I, I'd, I like to be mindful of that in this program because I want to be helpful to folk.

[03:55:34.957 – 03:55:37.617] And, and so I'm somebody… [03:55:37.617 – 03:55:40.717] I, I take it to extreme, I confess that. [03:55:40.717 – 03:55:42.387] I mean, I don't do it. [03:55:42.387 – 03:55:45.217] I don't do it and I don't listen to it. [03:55:45.217 – 03:55:49.857] My wife gets on my case c-because I don't tell her stuff, you know. [03:55:49.857 – 03:55:59.957] There was some lady pregnant in our group, and I knew it, and, and I didn't tell her, and she wanted to chew me out for it, and I said, "Well, why would [03:55:59.957 – 03:56:01.217] I announce her pregnancy?

[03:56:01.217 – 03:56:04.537] My God, that's none of my business, you know." I didn't do it. [03:56:04.537 – 03:56:12.737] So But, but see, you know, it, uh, it's, it's that, that kind of goes to extreme, I guess. [03:56:12.737 – 03:56:18.237] But you never know when you're going to be putting somebody else's sensitive business on the street. [03:56:18.237 – 03:56:20.977] And so I, I, I want to be real careful with that. [03:56:20.977 – 03:56:21.997] I don't listen to it. [03:56:21.997 – 03:56:26.217] That's as much of, of the part of it as, as doing it, is listening to it.

[03:56:26.217 – 03:56:30.797] I had a guy stop me in a meeting the other day and said, uh, told me some place he'd been. [03:56:30.797 – 03:56:40.817] He said, "You want to know what some guy said about you at, at that, over there?" And I said, "No, not really." And he said, "You mean you don't want to know?" I said, [03:56:40.817 – 03:56:49.777] "No, I don't." He said, "Why not?" I said, "Because I've got stuff to do, and I wouldn't waste ten seconds of my time listening to some kind of junk.

[03:56:49.777 – 03:56:54.316] I mean, I couldn't care less, man." And I walked off, you know, and went over to talk to a newcomer. [03:56:54.316 – 03:56:55.376] That's exactly where I want to be. [03:56:55.376 – 03:56:58.686] Why would I be standing around listening to some foolishness like that, you know? [03:56:58.686 – 03:56:59.157] But God. [03:56:59.157 – 03:57:09.277] So that whole bit of this, this stuff about, about monitoring what I do and being sure that I'm not doing more harm than good personally [03:57:09.277 – 03:57:12.717] of having opinions on outside issues, because that's not our deal.

[03:57:12.717 – 03:57:13.617] That's not our deal. [03:57:13.617 – 03:57:17.697] I stress that just to remind myself of how important it is. [03:57:17.697 – 03:57:18.187] The, the last [03:57:18.314 – 03:57:22.234] These two are, are, are about– Well, let's separate them out. [03:57:22.234 – 03:57:26.734] That is about anonymity in two different forms. [03:57:26.734 – 03:57:35.914] One is, uh, is our, uh, our eleventh tradition says our public reta– relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion. [03:57:35.914 – 03:57:40.334] We need to always maintain personal anonymity to have a press, radio, and film. [03:57:40.334 – 03:57:50.414] That, that's a very important thing about keeping myself downsized and, and about our, our program

[03:57:50.414 – 03:57:51.354] of attractiveness. [03:57:51.354 – 03:57:56.414] There, there's a lot that constitutes the program of attractiveness, I believe. [03:57:56.414 – 03:57:58.074] Yeah, we got a lot of stuff. [03:57:58.074 – 03:58:04.274] We got a lot of PI material, we got displays, and we got all that kind of stuff, and short shots on television, stuff like that. [03:58:04.274 – 03:58:07.734] I don't believe that's, that's our program of attraction. [03:58:07.734 – 03:58:11.234] It may lend itself a little bit. [03:58:11.234 – 03:58:15.054] You know, it may have some value in that regard, but I think it's more just information.

[03:58:15.054 – 03:58:18.634] But what is it that attracts about Alcoholics Anonymous? [03:58:18.634 – 03:58:26.374] I believe that our program of attraction is me and you, that we're the program of attraction. [03:58:26.374 – 03:58:31.994] We either deliver on the expectations that people have, or we disappoint them. [03:58:31.994 – 03:58:38.714] And, and so when I think about the program of attraction, I like to remember that this is human-to-human stuff. [03:58:38.714 – 03:58:48.714] And, and very critically important, when somebody walks into a meeting, I wanna be sure that they get a good welcome, that they get

[03:58:48.714 – 03:58:50.834] a good welcome and know that they're in the right place. [03:58:50.834 – 03:58:56.674] I wanna be sure the meeting makes sense, that it's a good, sane place to be, and that there's hope here. [03:58:56.674 – 03:59:02.174] That's a part of, of, of, of what I see as the, uh, as the program of attraction. [03:59:02.174 – 03:59:03.634] It's how we act. [03:59:03.634 – 03:59:09.414] It's how we handle ourselves, not only in meetings, but outside. [03:59:09.414 – 03:59:17.794] Like, I know, I don't know about you, but I know that, that a lot of people are aware that I'm in AA.

[03:59:17.794 – 03:59:22.354] Uh, it's not because I make public announcements, but I live in a small town. [03:59:22.354 – 03:59:27.654] And my God, if they don't know it, they've been in a cave somewhere because it just sort of gets around. [03:59:27.654 – 03:59:31.414] And with that goes a responsibility. [03:59:31.414 – 03:59:41.594] If I'm gonna be loose enough to let people know that I'm here, I accept a real responsibility that goes [03:59:41.594 – 03:59:42.074] with that. [03:59:42.074 – 03:59:44.174] I accept a real responsibility. [03:59:44.174 – 03:59:53.514] Uh, when I first came to North Carolina, god, uh, uh, so, so– And I barely had spoken in meetings, and I started doing some of that community stuff.

[03:59:53.514 – 03:59:57.634] And s– And, and a minister asked me to speak. [03:59:57.634 – 03:59:59.194] Now I'm a, I'm a rookie. [03:59:59.194 – 04:00:03.954] Asked me to speak at the eleven o'clock service on Sunday morning in his church. [04:00:03.954 – 04:00:13.214] And man alive, I thought, "Man, if I–," I couldn't have been more, more scared if he'd have said, "Take– Drive this ship to the moon." And I — But that was just out of reach. [04:00:13.214 – 04:00:16.074] And I– But, but I, I didn't want to say no. [04:00:16.074 – 04:00:18.554] Everything about me wanted to say no.

[04:00:18.554 – 04:00:21.854] But here's a guy who's saying, "You know, we wanna learn something. [04:00:21.854 – 04:00:25.354] I want our folks to know about it." I'm the only one he knew. [04:00:25.354 – 04:00:32.014] So I went to a, a, a fellow that I knew that I had a lot of respect for in the program. [04:00:32.014 – 04:00:37.554] I told him about it, and I said, "What do you think I ought to do?" He said, "I tell you, Tom, two things. [04:00:37.554 – 04:00:47.594] One, I think you ought to do it, but only if you're absolutely certain that you're serious about this thing." He said, "I know

[04:00:47.594 – 04:00:55.114] nobody's got the assurance they're gonna be sober forever, but if you have any doubt that you're gonna give this your very best, don't do it. [04:00:55.114 – 04:01:02.874] Because what you'll do by your behavior will undermine everything that anybody in sight does. [04:01:02.874 – 04:01:12.894] So it's a heavy responsibility." That helped me, you know, some about, about being prepared to reach out, you know, so that the program of [04:01:12.894 – 04:01:15.474] attraction is backed up with appropriate behavior. [04:01:15.474 – 04:01:18.254] Uh, I'll give, I'll give you one example of a thing.

[04:01:18.254 – 04:01:20.003] I, I, I'm gonna tell you the good stuff. [04:01:20.003 – 04:01:21.914] I, I won't tell you stuff that reflects badly. [04:01:21.914 – 04:01:23.774] But how important it is. [04:01:23.774 – 04:01:25.674] You know, I've, I've already given two or three examples. [04:01:25.674 – 04:01:28.134] I, I'll tell you one that sort of hit me. [04:01:28.134 – 04:01:34.494] I was sitting in a, in a hotel lobby with a group of guys. [04:01:34.494 – 04:01:36.214] We were getting ready to do a district meeting. [04:01:36.214 – 04:01:41.194] And we were doing the usual stuff, sitting around a table, and we were banging about.

[04:01:41.194 – 04:01:42.854] And I, I was gonna be leading the panel. [04:01:42.854 – 04:01:45.464] I was chairing the panel, so I, I was doing the meeting. [04:01:45.464 – 04:01:49.514] And what we were doing, just saying, "You do this, you do that, you do this," laid it out. [04:01:49.514 – 04:01:54.874] And I noticed there was a couple, an older couple with real white hair over at the ne-next table. [04:01:54.874 – 04:01:58.274] I mean, I didn't pay attention to it much, I just was aware they were there. [04:01:58.274 – 04:02:06.734] And so b-before we finished, that couple got up and walked over, checked out of the hotel, and came back by.

[04:02:06.734 – 04:02:14.764] And, and so they stopped, and the, the, the lady was the more, the more outgoing, I guess, than, than the guy, or more confident or something. [04:02:14.764 – 04:02:24.954] And she said, "Excuse me." And I said, "Yeah, what?" And she said, "We didn't intend to eavesdrop on your meeting, [04:02:24.954 – 04:02:34.994] but we did." And, uh, I said, "Well, that's okay." And she said, "Would you mind telling us what your meeting's about?" And I said, "No, [04:02:34.994 – 04:02:45.034] I don't mind at all." I said, "We're gonna be doing a panel meeting on– at, at, at, at, at, in a meeting down– downtown a little while later." And she said, "Oh, what's it about?" And I said, "Well, we're

[04:02:45.034 – 04:02:48.654] gonna do a panel, and it's about service." And she said, "Isn't that nice? [04:02:48.654 – 04:02:53.394] In relation to what?" Well, she wasn't gonna give up. [04:02:53.394 – 04:02:57.374] I mean, I wasn't hiding it, but, I mean, she really wanted to know. [04:02:57.374 – 04:03:00.574] And, uh, her husband spoke up once or twice when she let him. [04:03:00.574 – 04:03:10.574] And, uh, and, uh, I, I said, "It's about Alcoholics Anonymous." And she– both of them said, "Isn't that great?" Yeah, and I said, "Yeah, [04:03:10.624 – 04:03:15.594] it is great." And then she said something that was absolutely priceless to me.

[04:03:15.594 – 04:03:25.786] She said, "We were, we were sharing about watching you guys." And we agreed that you were the most intense, focused group we had ever [04:03:25.786 – 04:03:27.686] seen doing anything. [04:03:27.686 – 04:03:30.646] And man, I was so thankful. [04:03:30.646 – 04:03:39.006] Oh, I was so thankful that we weren't just into some off-the-wall malarkey, you know, and just carrying on like I sometimes do. [04:03:39.006 – 04:03:46.626] But I was so grateful because here were people who would evaluate what we were doing by what we were doing. [04:03:46.626 – 04:03:56.626] And, and so, you know, when those people left, you know, unlike that, that, that one I cited, his neck turned red, I guarantee you these

[04:03:56.626 – 04:04:01.186] two folks would have recommended the pope to, uh, their grandchildren. [04:04:01.186 – 04:04:09.186] It's a program of attraction, you know, of what we do here. [04:04:09.186 – 04:04:11.546] You know, they, um… [04:04:11.546 – 04:04:17.606] I tell you this, just between us, that, uh, everything we look at is not good news. [04:04:17.606 – 04:04:26.146] They, uh, had a friend in Raleigh that was doing a CPC project, and he went, he talked to a doc at, at a hospital. [04:04:26.146 – 04:04:35.226] And it was just one of those, you know, how-do-you-do type things of, you know, if you have anybody with an alcohol problem, feel, feel free to call, and, and we'll be glad to work with them.

[04:04:35.226 – 04:04:45.406] And the doc said, and hear this, "Thanks, but we found a better solution." You wouldn't have heard that [04:04:45.406 – 04:04:46.226] a few years ago. [04:04:46.226 – 04:04:47.546] You wouldn't have heard that. [04:04:47.546 – 04:04:57.946] And I think the reason you, you hear that is because generally, and I hope it's different here, but generally, we've been extremely lax and apathetic [04:04:57.946 – 04:05:00.966] about aggressive, active work in this area. [04:05:00.966 – 04:05:11.146] Uh, in, in this state in nineteen sixty, the International Convention was held, and I don't know what the written theme was, but the theme of it was, "Let's be friendly

[04:05:11.146 – 04:05:20.446] with our friends." And that stage was filled with friends of Alcoholics Anonymous who are non-alcohol, non-alcoholic. [04:05:20.446 – 04:05:28.626] Now, it's almost an endangered species, because we have just not been aggressive in fostering those good relationships. [04:05:28.626 – 04:05:34.986] I tell you one other thing that's just– I don't want to be a prophet of gloom, but a thing struck me a while back. [04:05:34.986 – 04:05:38.526] I was listening to a report in a, in a service structure meeting. [04:05:38.526 – 04:05:48.606] And for the first time in my recovery, for the first time, every number that we tracked in Alcoholics Anonymous

[04:05:48.606 – 04:05:49.456] was down. [04:05:49.456 – 04:05:51.575] Every number. [04:05:51.575 – 04:05:58.586] I'm talking about members, groups, contributions, grapevine, literature. [04:05:58.586 – 04:06:00.726] If we count it, it was down. [04:06:00.726 – 04:06:10.726] A couple years ago, I was in Ch-Chicago at a, at a, at a meeting, and they had a really, really fine panel of service folk, a, a Class A trustee, a [04:06:10.726 – 04:06:17.066] non-alcoholic trustee, a, a, a trustee at large, a couple of, of other delegates, re– well-informed people. [04:06:17.066 – 04:06:24.086] And I, I don't go to the mic very often, but I went up that time, and I s-I said, I told them, I said, "This is my experience.

[04:06:24.086 – 04:06:32.506] I, I hope you can tell me that those numbers have changed." And the Class A trustee, the non-alcoholic guy, he, he couldn't wait. [04:06:32.506 – 04:06:34.226] He almost sprinted to the mic. [04:06:34.226 – 04:06:44.355] And he said, said, "I really appreciate the question, and I sincerely wish I could tell you good news, but every [04:06:44.355 – 04:06:50.826] number is either further down or static." Now, I'm gonna tell you something, fellow alcoholics. [04:06:50.826 – 04:06:59.146] In the real world, we would call that a recession, because every other number is growing, not shrinking.

[04:06:59.146 – 04:07:03.956] And so I, I think that says something to me about… [04:07:03.956 – 04:07:06.746] We're not trying to compete to be the biggest thing in the world. [04:07:06.746 – 04:07:16.226] But we do have a stated mission to try to reach the alcoholic who still suffers, not decrease the number who are being, being helped. [04:07:16.226 – 04:07:22.946] And, and so I think there's a real message in that, that it's more than just philosophical stuff of interest. [04:07:22.946 – 04:07:29.986] It's a matter of whether we really mean it when we say we want to reach out and reach the alcoholic who still suffers.

[04:07:29.986 – 04:07:32.606] And so I think that lays a challenge. [04:07:32.606 – 04:07:35.006] It certainly does to me, a-and I hope it does to you. [04:07:35.006 – 04:07:39.086] It's not– It's either bad news or an invitation. [04:07:39.086 – 04:07:39.906] I hope it's the latter. [04:07:39.906 – 04:07:44.586] So attraction, not a bad deal. [04:07:44.586 – 04:07:52.206] The l-the last one is, uh, anonymity. [04:07:52.206 – 04:07:54.026] What's the matter, Joe? [04:07:54.026 – 04:07:54.606] Your back's hurting. [04:07:54.606 – 04:07:56.066] Your back hurting? [04:07:56.066 – 04:07:57.046] Falling asleep. [04:07:57.046 – 04:07:57.866] Fanny hurting? [04:07:57.866 – 04:08:01.746] Old people have that, you know. [04:08:05.466 – 04:08:06.006] Anonymity. [04:08:06.006 – 04:08:12.746] That, uh, pr– I think it probably is one of the, the most misunderstood things in our program.

[04:08:12.746 – 04:08:14.045] That, uh… [04:08:14.045 – 04:08:17.486] A, a funny thing, that's just my take, you know that. [04:08:17.486 – 04:08:19.326] Everything I've said today is my take. [04:08:19.326 – 04:08:20.166] Well, for most part. [04:08:20.166 – 04:08:20.866] Read some of it. [04:08:20.866 – 04:08:30.906] But there, there is a lot of, a lot of, of, of misunderstanding [04:08:30.906 – 04:08:33.546] about it, about what it means. [04:08:33.546 – 04:08:34.766] You know, that what does it mean? [04:08:34.766 – 04:08:39.266] Does, does it mean I'm not to tell anybody I'm in AA, or that thing, or what's public, and all this kind of stuff? [04:08:39.266 – 04:08:41.786] I, I heard Bill Wilson one time.

[04:08:41.786 – 04:08:48.306] I, that's one of the few privileges of being old, was I, I had a chance to, to sit in a meeting and listen to Bill in a small meeting. [04:08:48.306 – 04:08:51.925] And, uh, and he talked about anonymity. [04:08:51.925 – 04:08:54.126] He was doing tradition stuff, and he talked about anonymity. [04:08:54.126 – 04:09:04.246] And in the course of what he was talking about, he said, "Our f- our fellowship, our program, was never intended [04:09:04.246 – 04:09:09.346] to produce a fugitive hiding place for alcoholics." That's not what AA's about.

[04:09:09.346 – 04:09:19.506] He said, "The function of this program is to restore me to my rightful place in this world, where I can live with dignity and achieve whatever potential I might [04:09:19.506 – 04:09:26.646] have." That was a wonderful kind of a thing for me, that, that, that anonymity is not about, about secret hiding. [04:09:26.646 – 04:09:28.186] It's not about a hiding place. [04:09:28.186 – 04:09:31.446] Anonymity is about a spiritual quality. [04:09:31.446 – 04:09:34.166] It's, it's about not the big I. [04:09:34.166 – 04:09:39.066] You know, it's, it's the, the thing, the whole, the whole message of anonymity is humility.

[04:09:39.066 – 04:09:44.786] And the, the, the secrecy part of it i- is, is a more minor part of it. [04:09:44.786 – 04:09:49.166] The se– the big thing about anonymity is to protect me from myself. [04:09:49.166 – 04:09:53.286] You know, so that who I am become more important than what I am. [04:09:53.286 – 04:09:57.466] That I start to have some kind of a marquee quality or something there. [04:09:57.466 – 04:09:58.826] You know, the… [04:09:58.826 – 04:10:08.866] I had a guy tell me one time, said, he said, "I don't mind breaking my anonymity because I figure if folks in this

[04:10:08.866 – 04:10:19.846] town knew I was in, they might want to come in." I said, "Wonder how many would want to stay out?" He [04:10:19.846 – 04:10:20.466] didn't answer. [04:10:20.466 – 04:10:22.846] I don't, I don't know if he didn't know what to say or what. [04:10:22.846 – 04:10:25.306] But I would say the same question. [04:10:25.306 – 04:10:26.806] I had a, a woman called me. [04:10:26.806 – 04:10:29.526] I wasn't in trouble with him, but a woman called me from IRS. [04:10:29.526 – 04:10:33.876] Oh, it was something about a s- ta- uh, tax de-deal that was conference. [04:10:33.876 – 04:10:37.166] So I'd written in for some sort of a thing you, you do on that.

[04:10:37.166 – 04:10:43.706] And she was sending everything to my house, and it was addressed not to Mr. [04:10:43.706 – 04:10:47.866] Alcoholics Anonymous, but Tom Ivester, Alcoholics Anonymous, my street. [04:10:47.866 – 04:10:54.366] I, I wouldn't particularly object to that, but except that's a gross violation. [04:10:54.366 – 04:10:59.395] So I called up and I said, "Look, uh, uh, it's no big deal." I got the lady on the phone. [04:10:59.395 – 04:11:05.846] I said, "But it's not the right thing to do." And, uh, she was playing with me a little bit. [04:11:05.846 – 04:11:15.966] She, she said, "Why not?" And I said, "Well, I mean, we, we don't use personalities in this thing because it may, it, it may not be helpful

[04:11:15.966 – 04:11:16.726] in, in what we're doing. [04:11:16.726 – 04:11:19.446] So it just is– we're anonymous by choice. [04:11:19.446 – 04:11:23.706] We don't do that stuff." And she said, "Well, d–" It's the same thing that guy said. [04:11:23.706 – 04:11:33.776] Said, "Well, you realize that you might attract people in by that?" I said, "Yeah, but probably not as many as would be drive out." And, uh, and so she took the [04:11:33.776 – 04:11:34.226] thing out. [04:11:34.226 – 04:11:41.146] But it's a sneaky kind of thing, eh, where this can slip in and unchallenged it can get out of hand pretty easily.

[04:11:41.146 – 04:11:50.906] Uh, so anonymity is to protect me from myself, so that that old ego doesn't run up and take over and all this kind of stuff. [04:11:50.906 – 04:11:54.366] It is not about secret, secret hiding stuff. [04:11:54.366 – 04:12:04.626] It's– What, what the– what's provided in this program, what's laid out in this program, is that we're entitled to as much privacy as we think we need. [04:12:04.626 – 04:12:05.706] Whatever that is. [04:12:05.706 – 04:12:14.666] Some people are in ultra-sensitive positions that just simply are not willing to take the risk.

[04:12:14.666 – 04:12:18.455] And so sometimes they just have to be extremely guarded. [04:12:18.455 – 04:12:21.485] And so it provides for that. [04:12:21.485 – 04:12:23.726] I can have as much as I need, as much as I want. [04:12:23.726 – 04:12:31.666] But what I don't want to do is live in, in this fearful kind of posture. [04:12:31.666 – 04:12:41.726] So I mean, a lot of people, and it's fine if they want to do that, but introduce themselves even to fellow AA members, won't, won't even use [04:12:41.726 – 04:12:42.226] their name. [04:12:42.226 – 04:12:42.586] Yeah. [04:12:42.586 – 04:12:50.086] And, um, that's fine if you wanna do it, but it's sure not fine with me because I wanna know my fellow members.

[04:12:50.086 – 04:12:54.926] My God, man, I wanna be able to trust that if I tell you something that it's not going anywhere. [04:12:54.926 – 04:12:56.126] You're not gonna put it on the street. [04:12:56.126 – 04:13:02.466] And so I, I don't want to get that sort of fearful of that stuff that I can't be open and responsive to my fellow members. [04:13:02.466 – 04:13:08.506] Um, I'll give you, give you, give you an example of what, what I do. [04:13:08.506 – 04:13:10.476] Now, I'm pretty cautious about… [04:13:10.476 – 04:13:14.926] Strangely enough, I am pretty cautious about anonymity.

[04:13:14.926 – 04:13:25.206] And, um, and I've done some, some stuff on radio and television that a lot of people do when they get into some kind of stuff in, in, in the program. [04:13:25.206 – 04:13:26.526] So I've done that. [04:13:26.526 – 04:13:31.806] But every time we've ever done it, it's been with absolute assurance of anonymity. [04:13:31.806 – 04:13:35.386] If it's on television, it's always with the screen or something. [04:13:35.386 – 04:13:37.226] Uh, I did one thing. [04:13:37.226 – 04:13:38.986] Uh, I did, I did a… [04:13:38.986 – 04:13:47.066] I never did see it, but they did a, a TV program about drunk driving, and they, they had me to do the, the presentation.

[04:13:47.066 – 04:13:51.246] They used what they– I call it the Rubik's Cube thing. [04:13:51.246 – 04:13:54.626] Like, you know, where they're hiding identity, and it's these nu- colors that do that. [04:13:54.626 – 04:13:57.686] And they say that your mother couldn't identify you. [04:13:57.686 – 04:14:04.146] Well, I did that, and, and I don't know what it looked like, but a woman called me from North Dakota. [04:14:04.146 – 04:14:14.174] And she, she said, "Did you make a movie?" And I said, "No, what are you talking about?" And she said- Well, I [04:14:14.174 – 04:14:16.274] saw a movie, and I know it was you.

[04:14:16.274 – 04:14:19.174] And I said, "Well," and they do disguise the voice. [04:14:19.174 – 04:14:29.624] I said, "How'd you know?" She said, "I recognize your nose." I thought, "Boy, this is a weird way to do anonymity." I, uh, that's, [04:14:29.624 – 04:14:30.974] I didn't know my nose was that bad. [04:14:30.974 – 04:14:31.734] I thought it was cute. [04:14:31.734 – 04:14:35.054] But, but she, she found it very identifiable. [04:14:35.054 – 04:14:37.474] It's tricky stuff. [04:14:37.474 – 04:14:42.084] Yeah, I was, I was at a conference, and I'm gonna wrap up on, on a, another note, but I… [04:14:42.084 – 04:14:44.174] It, it is tricky about this anonymity business.

[04:14:44.174 – 04:14:46.684] I was at a, at a professional conference one time. [04:14:46.684 – 04:14:47.674] It was a coffee break. [04:14:47.674 – 04:14:52.114] I was out walking around having a coffee with a, with a young lady there that… [04:14:52.114 – 04:14:54.074] And we were just talking the usual stuff, you know. [04:14:54.074 – 04:14:55.194] "How many kids you got? [04:14:55.194 – 04:14:56.154] Where'd you go to school? [04:14:56.154 – 04:14:58.494] What's your dog's name?" You know, all that stuff. [04:14:58.494 – 04:15:03.734] Thrilling stuff, and, and so I told her all about me, gave her my Social Security number. [04:15:03.734 – 04:15:05.424] Not quite, but…

[04:15:05.424 – 04:15:12.174] And so all at once, in mid-sentence, she said, she just stopped. [04:15:12.174 – 04:15:22.774] She said, "Are you Tom I?" I said, "Well, in some circles that's how I'm known." And she said, "I know you." I [04:15:22.774 – 04:15:29.074] said, "Where'd we meet?" Said, "Well, we didn't meet." But she'd gotten ahold of CDs or tapes or something, and she really, she recognized the voice. [04:15:29.074 – 04:15:31.694] And I thought that… [04:15:31.694 – 04:15:35.854] I told her, I said, "This is a strange commentary on anonymity. [04:15:35.854 – 04:15:42.273] I've already told you everything about me, name, rank, serial number, and all that.

[04:15:42.273 – 04:15:53.334] And yet, in order for me to be anonymous, I'm gonna have to use my full identity because my anonymous identity is too well known." So [04:15:53.334 – 04:15:53.694] I don't know. [04:15:53.694 – 04:15:55.054] That's a kind of catch-22. [04:15:55.054 – 04:15:56.134] I don't know what I'm gonna do with that. [04:15:56.134 – 04:15:57.994] But it, it's a strange thing. [04:15:57.994 – 04:16:06.634] For a long time, and, and, and I'm not, I'm not trying to encourage anybody to do anything. [04:16:06.634 – 04:16:09.434] You've each got your own thing to do with anonymity. [04:16:09.434 – 04:16:13.474] You gotta find your personal, uh, zone that you're gonna operate in.

[04:16:13.474 – 04:16:18.614] Weigh it against what kind of work you wanna do, and then, you know, you know, just how open you wanna be. [04:16:18.614 – 04:16:20.594] But I'll tell you what, what with me. [04:16:20.594 – 04:16:23.034] I've, I've been traveling for a long time. [04:16:23.034 – 04:16:26.834] I, doing stuff like we're doing now, 44 years. [04:16:26.834 – 04:16:31.914] And for a long time when I was traveling, I'm nearly always… [04:16:31.914 – 04:16:36.214] Once in a while I'd be business, but one, most of the time I'm going somewhere to an AA thing. [04:16:36.214 – 04:16:38.174] And so you get on a plane.

[04:16:38.174 – 04:16:39.054] You know how it is now. [04:16:39.054 – 04:16:41.474] You're jammed up, and sometimes folks wanna talk. [04:16:41.474 – 04:16:43.214] Sometimes they just wanna go brain dead. [04:16:43.214 – 04:16:47.574] But, but a lot of times they just wanna talk, you know, and the same old stuff, just like that girl, you know, "Where are you… [04:16:47.574 – 04:16:51.794] " So for a lot of years, somebody, it would be the same old conversation, "Where are you from? [04:16:51.794 – 04:17:01.814] Where are you going?" And I say, "Well, I'm going to Alamo, California." "What for?" And for a lot of years I would say, "Well, I'm going to a conference or a workshop."

[04:17:01.814 – 04:17:06.254] "Oh, what's it about?" And, and I wouldn't just lie. [04:17:06.254 – 04:17:08.774] I'd kind of fog it, you know. [04:17:08.774 – 04:17:15.774] I'd just kind of evade the issue and say, "Oh, it's about alcoholism or something," or, you know, just something, just sort of blow it off. [04:17:15.774 – 04:17:18.194] And yeah, I did that for many years. [04:17:18.194 – 04:17:23.614] And then one day I was flying somewhere, and it dawned on me, "Why do I do that? [04:17:23.614 – 04:17:25.984] What on earth am I doing? [04:17:25.984 – 04:17:27.623] Is that anonymity? [04:17:27.623 – 04:17:37.734] For God's sakes, man, I'm in a, in a steel tube 30,000 feet in the air." "Somebody's sitting in the seat beside me, and I'm

[04:17:37.734 – 04:17:39.394] sitting there in a little glass prison. [04:17:39.394 – 04:17:41.714] Don't get close to me." You know what? [04:17:41.714 – 04:17:44.134] What has that got to do with anonymity? [04:17:44.134 – 04:17:47.094] And so I thought, "My God, that's dumb. [04:17:47.094 – 04:17:53.974] I ain't gonna do that no more." And I haven't, and for a long, long time. [04:17:53.974 – 04:18:00.474] If anybody asks me, I tell them in gory detail. [04:18:00.474 – 04:18:04.054] I mean, they better mean it if they ask me. [04:18:04.054 – 04:18:05.434] It's, uh… [04:18:05.434 – 04:18:07.604] I mean, I don't just, don't assault them with it. [04:18:07.604 – 04:18:17.954] But, I mean, I tell them, "Yo, that's where I'm going." And, and, and all the time that I've been doing that, and you can take this to the bank, I have never

[04:18:17.954 – 04:18:23.934] had anything other than elevated interest in the conversation. [04:18:23.934 – 04:18:29.194] I've never had a single person say, "Oh, that's nice." Not a single one. [04:18:29.194 – 04:18:32.514] Not a single person lackadaisical or uninterested. [04:18:32.514 – 04:18:36.214] Every si- By my God, about every family's got one in the tree. [04:18:36.214 – 04:18:40.014] So it, this is a live issue with most people. [04:18:40.014 – 04:18:42.654] I've found an awful lot of members in hiding. [04:18:42.654 – 04:18:52.474] And, uh, found a, I found an old, a, an Al-Anon gal on the plane one day, a, a fairly well-nourished girl, and from Iowa.

[04:18:53.244 – 04:18:56.344] And so we were rocking along as we went through the drill. [04:18:56.344 – 04:19:02.624] And so I'm telling her this stuff, and she, she wasn't saying much, but she was more than a little interested. [04:19:02.624 – 04:19:06.104] And you can tell if somebody's really tuned in. [04:19:06.104 – 04:19:08.344] So finally, she got up her nerve. [04:19:08.344 – 04:19:16.383] She said, "Well, I hadn't said anything, but I used to be an Al-Anon." And I said, "Oh, you did, eh? [04:19:16.383 – 04:19:21.364] What happened?" Well, I know you're not gonna believe this story, but, but it's God's truth.

[04:19:21.364 – 04:19:31.864] She said, "Well, I was real active and my husband died, and, uh, and I just kind of drifted away." And, and unbelievably, [04:19:31.864 – 04:19:33.104] she married another drunk. [04:19:33.104 – 04:19:36.544] And I know that rarely happens, but, but she did. [04:19:36.544 – 04:19:38.784] And so, so she got her another one. [04:19:38.784 – 04:19:44.744] And she said, "That fool was– forbids me to go to Al-Anon. [04:19:44.744 – 04:19:49.484] I just can't go." And I said, "God knows that's too bad." We talked a little more. [04:19:49.484 – 04:19:59.604] She said, "Let me tell you what I'm gonna do when I get to Iowa." I said, "What are you gonna do?" She said, "I'm going to Al-Anon, and if that sucker gets in my way, I'm gonna knock him out."

[04:19:59.604 – 04:20:03.964] I, I didn't mean to start a war. [04:20:03.964 – 04:20:13.964] But, but you, you say just a simple little thing, simple little thing, and that might have been just the thing that broke it enough to give her the, the, the, the [04:20:13.964 – 04:20:16.264] pizzazz to go take on that dude. [04:20:16.264 – 04:20:19.984] And, and, uh, so I've never had a bad experience. [04:20:19.984 – 04:20:22.714] I, I'll tell you, I, I'll tell you just, just a couple more. [04:20:22.714 – 04:20:26.304] I, I mean, I've got a f- a few million airplane stories.

[04:20:26.304 – 04:20:26.524] I've… [04:20:26.524 – 04:20:29.144] Y- you never know… [04:20:29.144 – 04:20:30.684] Talk about being of maximum service. [04:20:30.684 – 04:20:38.004] I, I was, I was on, I was on a plane one day going to Fargo, North Dakota in February. [04:20:38.004 – 04:20:40.204] Thrill of a lifetime. [04:20:40.204 – 04:20:49.104] And so, um, I'm, I'm, I'm in there, and, and I literally caught the last plane out of Chicago before they closed the airport. [04:20:49.104 – 04:20:50.224] So I'm back there. [04:20:50.224 – 04:20:53.304] I'm sitting in the middle, not liking it, but I'm sitting there anyway. [04:20:53.304 – 04:21:02.284] And right before we're ready to take off, you know, a frantic-looking red-haired woman coming down the aisle.

[04:21:02.284 – 04:21:06.684] And I said, "I bet you she gonna sit with me." I, I'm like, I just feel it coming. [04:21:06.684 – 04:21:09.544] And sure enough, here she came. [04:21:09.544 – 04:21:13.524] Now, I'd been sitting there, and we'd already started to talk. [04:21:13.524 – 04:21:17.884] The, the little girl on the win- on the window side, we'd already started to talk. [04:21:17.884 – 04:21:26.504] And she was a girl from Boston who was on the way to Fargo to interview for a librarian job. [04:21:26.504 – 04:21:27.444] That was her profession. [04:21:27.444 – 04:21:29.724] And so we were talking about that kind of stuff.

[04:21:29.724 – 04:21:35.764] And then, and then this gal came in, and, and, and, and she, uh, she kind of hooked, hooked in to with me. [04:21:35.764 – 04:21:39.664] And, uh, so she asked me what, where I was. [04:21:39.664 – 04:21:42.524] And, uh, so I told her where I was going and what for. [04:21:42.524 – 04:21:44.444] And as she looked, I mean, she just lit up. [04:21:44.444 – 04:21:55.064] She said, "Are you in recovery?" I said, "You better believe it, girl." And she said, "Me too, seven years." Well, [04:21:55.064 – 04:21:58.284] now I tell you, it's very o- very rare that you get a double header.

[04:21:58.284 – 04:22:01.364] But you know how we are. [04:22:01.364 – 04:22:03.704] We don't mean to be rude, but we often are. [04:22:03.704 – 04:22:09.834] Because the minute that started, she and I proceeded to have a semi-closed meeting- … [04:22:09.834 – 04:22:10.684] in, in that airplane. [04:22:10.684 – 04:22:12.444] I mean, we were going at it pretty strong. [04:22:12.444 – 04:22:20.664] And, uh, and what happened, she had a really tough story that her husband had just died of brain cancer in, in, uh, Rhode Island, where she's from. [04:22:20.664 – 04:22:24.924] And she was going to Fargo to be with her family for a grief period.

[04:22:24.924 – 04:22:26.604] So it was a tough deal. [04:22:26.604 – 04:22:29.864] So I was naturally paying a lot of attention to her. [04:22:29.864 – 04:22:31.424] I forgot about the librarian. [04:22:31.424 – 04:22:37.114] And so I t- I turned around and s- and sort of apologized. [04:22:37.114 – 04:22:38.264] I said, "Geez, I'm really rude. [04:22:38.264 – 04:22:43.564] I didn't mean to just pay no attention to you." And she said, "No, no, don't apologize. [04:22:43.564 – 04:22:53.604] Everybody's got the rest of the story, eh." She said, "I am going to Fargo to interview for a library job, but I didn't tell you the rest

[04:22:53.604 – 04:22:55.324] of the story." Rarely do. [04:22:55.324 – 04:22:59.164] She said, "I was to be married last Saturday. [04:22:59.164 – 04:23:02.724] Got all dressed up, went to the church. [04:23:02.724 – 04:23:11.224] Husband-to-be never showed." Now, I've never been in that position, but I can imagine how that felt. [04:23:11.224 – 04:23:13.844] Imagine it. [04:23:13.844 – 04:23:19.824] Humiliation, embarrassment, anger, shame. [04:23:19.824 – 04:23:22.564] All she wanted to do is, was hide. [04:23:22.564 – 04:23:30.384] And so sh- what she was doing was going to Fargo to get out of that. [04:23:30.384 – 04:23:34.224] So she told me the rest of the story. [04:23:34.224 – 04:23:44.263] And I s- and I was apologizing for ignoring her, and she said, "Don't you dare apologize." She said, "I was really wondering on this

[04:23:44.264 – 04:23:55.884] trip if there was any hope for me." And I said, after– She said, "After listening to you two, man, there's a lot of hope for me." Isn't [04:23:55.884 – 04:23:56.424] that something? [04:23:56.424 – 04:23:57.444] Isn't that something? [04:23:57.444 – 04:24:00.424] But, but you– can you imagine? [04:24:00.424 – 04:24:03.124] I mean, my God, I got a thousand of those. [04:24:03.124 – 04:24:13.304] Can you imagine how many times I have, have deprived myself of a warm and wonderful experience with some [04:24:13.304 – 04:24:15.084] fearful little… [04:24:15.084 – 04:24:16.644] Cuddle up in my little hole here. [04:24:16.644 – 04:24:21.504] Never had anything but absolute joy out of that and a lot of good purpose.

[04:24:21.504 – 04:24:24.744] I, I, I'll tell you one other one that just, uh, … [04:24:24.744 – 04:24:27.244] It's funny, you just, you never know. [04:24:27.244 – 04:24:32.064] I, I was, I was going s- landing somewhere, Texas, I believe. [04:24:32.064 – 04:24:37.304] And you know how you kind of, kind of observe what people doing? [04:24:37.304 – 04:24:41.544] The guy in, sitting in the middle, I was watching him. [04:24:41.544 – 04:24:43.764] And you talk about white knuckle. [04:24:43.764 – 04:24:48.204] When we got close to that ground, I mean, he was just c- I mean, absolutely gripping that seat.

[04:24:48.204 – 04:24:50.804] And it, it, white knuckle for real. [04:24:50.804 – 04:24:59.548] And, uh, well, I was, I was trying to d- uh, didn't take long, but I decided Am I gonna give this guy the privacy of, of his own… [04:24:59.548 – 04:25:02.188] what he's dealing with, or am I gonna butt in? [04:25:02.188 – 04:25:12.268] I said, "I think I'll butt in." And so, and so I just said, uh, I said, "Rough, ain't it?" He s- and man, he just came [04:25:12.268 – 04:25:12.707] unglued. [04:25:12.707 – 04:25:22.708] He said, "Mister, you don't know." He said, "I don't know what's the matter with me, but for the last few months, I've been so terrified on every flight that I go take off

[04:25:22.708 – 04:25:23.468] and landing. [04:25:23.468 – 04:25:25.588] I travel the entire country. [04:25:25.588 – 04:25:35.888] I absolutely have to fly or quit my job." And he said, "I don't know what to do." Now I– as you've gathered now, I don't mind just a little bit of, of lying for a purpose. [04:25:35.888 – 04:25:37.948] And I, so I didn't exactly lie. [04:25:37.948 – 04:25:39.528] I just kind of exaggerated a little bit. [04:25:39.528 – 04:25:49.408] I've been, I've been excited, I mean, an- uh, anxious one time on a plane for about 10 or 15 seconds.

[04:25:49.408 – 04:25:52.288] And I did the Serenity Prayer, and it went away. [04:25:52.288 – 04:25:53.288] It hasn't been bothered since. [04:25:53.288 – 04:25:58.798] So I told him, I said, "You know, I used to have that problem." I didn't tell him it was for 15 seconds. [04:25:58.798 – 04:26:09.148] And, uh, he said, "What did you do about it?" And I said, "Well, I belong to a program, and we've got a little prayer that we use, [04:26:09.148 – 04:26:13.308] and I find it extremely helpful." Well, man, he was hungry. [04:26:13.308 – 04:26:17.268] He, he said, "What is it?" So I told him the Serenity Prayer.

[04:26:17.268 – 04:26:26.948] And he said, he said, "Wait a minute." He got his little pad out, and he said, "Say that again." So I s- I sowed that, and he started writing it down. [04:26:26.948 – 04:26:29.548] Now, I have no way of knowing the value. [04:26:29.548 – 04:26:31.388] I have no way of knowing. [04:26:31.388 – 04:26:33.408] He may still be panicky. [04:26:33.408 – 04:26:40.688] But what I do know is that here was a chance to be of service to somebody. [04:26:40.688 – 04:26:50.748] And if I had been locked into that lockstep thing of some kind of notion that I had to be sealed off from people, my God,

[04:26:50.748 – 04:26:51.848] man, look what I miss. [04:26:51.848 – 04:26:55.448] And so what it's cost me is absolutely nothing. [04:26:55.448 – 04:26:56.668] Absolutely nothing. [04:26:56.668 – 04:26:59.368] And just warmly, warmly rewarded. [04:26:59.368 – 04:27:01.268] Last one, and then I quit. [04:27:01.268 – 04:27:03.268] I, I was on a… [04:27:03.268 – 04:27:07.328] because you never know about, uh, this happens whether in luxury or whatever. [04:27:07.328 – 04:27:08.808] I, I was on… [04:27:08.808 – 04:27:12.708] I was flying somewhere and, and, uh, there was a guy, nice man, nice man. [04:27:12.708 – 04:27:16.418] We're coming out of Montreal, and, and we were flying to, to… [04:27:16.418 – 04:27:17.488] He was going to California.

[04:27:17.488 – 04:27:19.148] I was going somewhere else. [04:27:19.148 – 04:27:22.468] And so we got in the same routine. [04:27:22.468 – 04:27:23.888] I told him, you know, what I was doing. [04:27:23.888 – 04:27:28.228] And he listened, kind of like the big guy from, from Iowa. [04:27:28.228 – 04:27:30.308] The, I mean, the well-nourished girl from Iowa. [04:27:30.308 – 04:27:40.328] And, uh, so, uh, he listened to me, and then he said, uh, "You know, I'm sort of an Al-Anon myself." I said, "What do you mean [04:27:40.328 – 04:27:50.508] by that?" He said, "Well, my wife's 15 years in the program." And he said, "I've been, uh, a little bit, uh, uncertain about what I'm gonna do." Now, this is obviously

[04:27:50.508 – 04:27:51.848] a guy that's a pretty high roller. [04:27:51.848 – 04:27:57.468] You know, he's got a, an enterprise in, in Montreal, owns a home there, and he's just built one in Palm Springs. [04:27:57.468 – 04:28:01.108] And so he, he's not on, on, on welfare, I don't think. [04:28:01.108 – 04:28:01.348] It… [04:28:01.348 – 04:28:08.288] And so he said, "I'm, I'm getting out of my business," and I'd been t- uh, talking with him about what I do, you know, and all this kind of stuff. [04:28:08.288 – 04:28:18.348] And, and he said, "I'm getting ready to leave my business, and I swear I don't know what to do." And, and so we, we talked about, you know, that,

[04:28:18.348 – 04:28:20.868] man, God, for me, it was a no-brainer. [04:28:20.868 – 04:28:24.408] I mean, my adjustment to retirement didn't take two seconds. [04:28:24.408 – 04:28:28.928] Then all I had to do was just put down the paycheck and pick up the tools and go to work. [04:28:28.928 – 04:28:34.128] And so it was an absolute no transition whatsoever, just g- keep on getting it. [04:28:34.128 – 04:28:36.608] And he was envying that. [04:28:36.608 – 04:28:41.108] And so what we talked about, he's in Palm Springs right now. [04:28:41.108 – 04:28:42.347] Hot, I bet. [04:28:42.347 – 04:28:51.358] That he i- he was there, and, and so what he's doing is getting back into Al-Anon and, and gonna find a life of service.

[04:28:51.358 – 04:28:54.188] And so you, you never know, eh? [04:28:54.188 – 04:28:58.708] You know, I don't think it's ever wasted, done properly. [04:28:58.708 – 04:29:00.428] You know, just simply letting know. [04:29:00.428 – 04:29:02.108] This is not about hiding. [04:29:02.108 – 04:29:04.588] It's about being of maximum service. [04:29:04.588 – 04:29:07.088] Could be as discreet as I need to be. [04:29:07.088 – 04:29:16.468] But if I get locked into some sort of, sort of hidden kind of an agenda, I think I'm gonna have a real limit on, on the joy that's gonna come. [04:29:16.468 – 04:29:21.468] And, and so I tell you, man, I, I, uh, I'm gonna quit.

[04:29:21.468 – 04:29:30.928] But I'll, I'll tell you, I've enjoyed very, very much, uh, being here and, uh, letting me spend some time with you, and one of my favorite things. [04:29:30.928 – 04:29:31.348] Thanks. [04:29:31.348 – 04:29:32.388] Thank you. [04:29:32.388 – 04:29:33.518] Good job. [04:29:33.518 – 04:29:34.698] Good job. [04:29:34.698 – 04:29:35.688] Thank you. [04:29:35.688 – 04:29:37.168] Good job. [04:29:37.168 – 04:29:39.398] Good job. [04:29:39.398 – 04:29:39.648] Thank you.