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[00:00:00.200 – 00:00:01.320] Well, good morning, folks. [00:00:01.320 – 00:00:02.360] Good morning. [00:00:02.360 – 00:00:03.060] Is this working? [00:00:03.060 – 00:00:03.840] Is this on now, Bob? [00:00:03.840 – 00:00:04.439] Yeah. [00:00:04.439 – 00:00:05.860] It's great to see you. [00:00:05.860 – 00:00:08.700] My gracious, you're a frisky looking bunch out here this morning. [00:00:08.700 – 00:00:11.300] Uh, Tom, you're an alcoholic. [00:00:11.300 – 00:00:12.240] I truly am. [00:00:12.240 – 00:00:15.310] And, uh, the, the… [00:00:15.310 – 00:00:19.090] I'm a member of the Primary Purpose group in Southern Pines, North Carolina. [00:00:19.090 – 00:00:23.830] And, uh, my sobriety date is Groundhog Day of '57. [00:00:23.830 – 00:00:28.800] And, uh, gee, man, I'm lucky to be breathing, never mind- … [00:00:28.800 – 00:00:31.280] never mind being in Lake Milton, Ohio.

[00:00:31.280 – 00:00:35.199] Uh, but I am just delighted to be here. [00:00:35.199 – 00:00:41.980] I got my first question in the, uh, ask it basket, and I didn't write it. [00:00:41.980 – 00:00:50.020] I can't say it the way the writer would've said it, but it'd be, "Hello, Tom. [00:00:50.020 – 00:00:53.839] I do hope you enjoyed your Scotland experience. [00:00:53.839 – 00:00:57.710] Patrick and George from Dundee, Scotland." Aw. [00:00:57.710 – 00:01:02.680] Uh, I don't know if everybody's aware or not, but this is now an international workshop. [00:01:02.680 – 00:01:06.200] And, uh, I, I'd like for you to meet those guys.

[00:01:06.200 – 00:01:07.840] This is Patrick. [00:01:07.840 – 00:01:09.020] Stand up now. [00:01:09.020 – 00:01:10.040] Don't be bashful. [00:01:10.040 – 00:01:14.860] Scottish people are not bashful. [00:01:14.860 – 00:01:18.940] Patrick has on the Irish green shirt. [00:01:18.940 – 00:01:22.220] And, and George is properly Dundee. [00:01:22.220 – 00:01:27.470] Uh, it, it, it, talk about, yeah, isn't that… [00:01:27.470 – 00:01:28.560] What does that say, George? [00:01:28.560 – 00:01:29.780] It says Scotland. [00:01:29.780 – 00:01:30.380] Good what? [00:01:30.380 – 00:01:31.560] Scotland. [00:01:31.560 – 00:01:32.440] Oh, my God. [00:01:32.440 – 00:01:32.840] Yes. [00:01:32.840 – 00:01:33.550] My, my, my. [00:01:33.550 – 00:01:34.610] I should've known. [00:01:34.610 – 00:01:35.430] I didn't need to ask. [00:01:35.430 – 00:01:42.120] I could- It was really i- ironic that these, these guys came over, uh, last week. [00:01:42.120 – 00:01:43.200] I, uh, for the, um…

[00:01:43.200 – 00:01:45.520] They went to the Florida State Convention. [00:01:45.520 – 00:01:50.630] And while they were at the Florida State Convention, I was at a convention in Scotland- … [00:01:50.630 – 00:01:52.420] at just a few miles from where they live. [00:01:52.420 – 00:01:57.440] So that was really reciprocal trade in action, I think that was going on. [00:01:57.440 – 00:01:59.620] And I'm just delighted to see them. [00:01:59.620 – 00:02:02.540] I sponsored a guy from Dundee for, for many years. [00:02:02.540 – 00:02:05.340] And, uh, so we have a sort of a pil- pilgrimage. [00:02:05.340 – 00:02:06.800] But we went to that town.

[00:02:06.800 – 00:02:08.020] That was just great. [00:02:08.020 – 00:02:13.640] The other folks are Bill and Nora from, uh, Stratford. [00:02:13.640 – 00:02:17.160] Not Stratford-on-Avon, but from Stratford, Ontario, Ontario. [00:02:17.160 – 00:02:20.460] Uh, you, you guys are probably not unknown, but stand anyway. [00:02:20.460 – 00:02:23.240] We, this is our, our Canadian delegation. [00:02:23.240 – 00:02:32.240] That's also reciprocity 'cause a lot of us were in your country, uh, back in July. [00:02:32.240 – 00:02:34.780] And, uh, so it's great to have you guys here. [00:02:34.780 – 00:02:37.780] Uh, and welcome to everybody. [00:02:37.780 – 00:02:47.859] What, what we'll do this morning is, uh, normally at a workshop I dress down when I, a little bit, 'cause if you put work in it, that, to me,

[00:02:47.860 – 00:02:48.900] takes the ceremony out. [00:02:48.900 – 00:02:52.720] Now it's time for grunting and groaning and sweating and agonizing and stuff. [00:02:52.720 – 00:02:54.800] So I don't fly the flag. [00:02:54.800 – 00:02:57.300] In fa- in fact, I don't wear the coat very long. [00:02:57.300 – 00:03:00.300] But it's sort of new, and I, I'd like for you to see it. [00:03:00.300 – 00:03:03.670] But… [00:03:03.670 – 00:03:07.000] And, but I, but I'll shed that dude pretty quick. [00:03:07.000 – 00:03:10.820] Uh, uh, but it is a real pleasure to be… [00:03:10.820 – 00:03:15.740] I've, uh, you, you, you met, uh, Kent last night, and you'll meet Wallace tonight.

[00:03:15.740 – 00:03:23.980] I've alerted them to be on s- on standby because who knows, you know, that the old guy might need a little help sometimes. [00:03:23.980 – 00:03:27.260] So I've alerted both of them to be ready to participate. [00:03:27.260 – 00:03:34.500] If I start to wimp out on anything, if you ask a tough question, I'll pull those boys into action. [00:03:34.500 – 00:03:38.840] And I appreciate their willingness to do that. [00:03:38.840 – 00:03:45.300] Let, let me tell you, they, they, they gave a little bit of a rundown on, on how we, how we would function.

[00:03:45.300 – 00:03:55.440] And, uh, I don't, I don't ever like to start out a, a, a talk with any, any play down about [00:03:55.440 – 00:03:57.720] un- inability to do and all that kind of stuff. [00:03:57.720 – 00:03:58.640] I mean, that's a given. [00:03:58.640 – 00:04:02.860] But, but I like to, I like to approach things like a workshop. [00:04:02.860 – 00:04:05.360] Uh, I'm not a can production guy. [00:04:05.360 – 00:04:10.720] You know, I'm not somebody that has a file with a folder for every kind of thing I want to do. [00:04:10.720 – 00:04:14.020] I got a, I have an office at my house that…

[00:04:14.020 – 00:04:15.660] My wife doesn't call it an office. [00:04:15.660 – 00:04:17.120] She calls it a junk room. [00:04:17.120 – 00:04:23.340] But instead, I think it's just perfectly organized, and I got everything in the known world. [00:04:23.340 – 00:04:25.820] So when I'm gonna prepare, I don't grab a folder. [00:04:25.820 – 00:04:27.460] I just grab some stuff, you know? [00:04:27.460 – 00:04:29.340] And so I sorted it out down in the motel. [00:04:29.340 – 00:04:34.540] But I'm a, I, I'm somebody who likes to communicate in the here and now. [00:04:34.540 – 00:04:41.060] I, I'm not somebody who likes to decide what I'm gonna say to a group in a, in Ohio that I haven't even met yet.

[00:04:41.060 – 00:04:43.960] And so that, that, to me, that's not communication. [00:04:43.960 – 00:04:49.780] So it's, it's a lot easier if you can it, and, you know, and you don't have to think about it. [00:04:49.780 – 00:04:50.880] You can just sort of present it. [00:04:50.880 – 00:04:51.700] It's a lot easier. [00:04:51.700 – 00:04:57.140] But I don't envy anybody that can do that because I really believe that communication's what it's about. [00:04:57.140 – 00:05:02.680] And I do like the interaction things Bob was, was, was, was, uh, was referring to. [00:05:02.680 – 00:05:10.280] And, and so please feel free at any time to just step up to the mic.

[00:05:10.280 – 00:05:11.720] But he said it well. [00:05:11.720 – 00:05:13.480] I couldn't say it any better, that's for sure. [00:05:13.480 – 00:05:15.979] That, uh, don't do it from where you sit. [00:05:15.979 – 00:05:20.940] Just go to the mic because we want to record you in case we have to bring charges or anything. [00:05:20.940 – 00:05:25.180] We got, we, we got the evidence in place. [00:05:25.180 – 00:05:30.020] And as promised, I'm getting out of this dude. [00:05:30.020 – 00:05:32.370] No. [00:05:32.370 – 00:05:34.960] Uh- More. [00:05:34.960 – 00:05:41.340] There's a time that would've been a very dangerous invitation, I figure. [00:05:41.340 – 00:05:51.460] So here, here's the basic thing I've got in mind, and I've had it in mind for probably 30 minutes

[00:05:51.460 – 00:05:51.750] or so. [00:05:51.750 – 00:05:54.660] What I'd like to do is… [00:05:54.660 – 00:05:56.740] That we're a strange breed. [00:05:56.740 – 00:06:01.360] It's hard for us to listen to somebody unless they do a little drinking first. [00:06:01.360 – 00:06:11.420] If somebody just starts talking with us with a bunch of philosophy and education information, I don't think I've ever seen a crowd that would stonewall somebody quicker than [00:06:11.420 – 00:06:11.660] us. [00:06:11.660 – 00:06:16.080] I mean, we're usually courteous, and we'll sit there and act like we're listening. [00:06:16.080 – 00:06:18.000] But ain't nothing happening. [00:06:18.000 – 00:06:18.780] Uh, you go… [00:06:18.780 – 00:06:21.060] That's why we call it qualifying, you know.

[00:06:21.060 – 00:06:31.300] Now, I'm, I'm, I'll, I'll work in qualifying all through here, but I like to start out rather than trying to introduce [00:06:31.300 – 00:06:38.340] notions about emotional sobriety and then explaining that and doing problem-solving and all that stuff. [00:06:38.340 – 00:06:41.220] I'm, I'm suspicious of that kind of approach. [00:06:41.220 – 00:06:42.679] I, I don't like that kind of approach. [00:06:42.679 – 00:06:53.180] What, what I like to do is start out with, with what are we talking about when we talk about things that are disruptive [00:06:53.180 – 00:06:56.960] or unproductive in, in having emotional sobriety?

[00:06:56.960 – 00:07:00.239] And so I'd, I'd like to kind of take off in that direction. [00:07:00.239 – 00:07:02.680] Before I do, let me do one other thing. [00:07:02.680 – 00:07:11.860] I, I'm a I'm a fortunate man in that I, I had the privilege of meeting Bill Wilson. [00:07:11.860 – 00:07:14.950] That's one of the few fringe benefits of being old- … [00:07:14.950 – 00:07:16.659] is that I got to meet our founder. [00:07:16.659 – 00:07:20.900] And I value that experience a great deal. [00:07:20.900 – 00:07:27.060] And I found him to be one of the most visionary, most brilliant, most articulate people I've ever seen in my life.

[00:07:27.060 – 00:07:31.720] He was a guy that really had his act together, and he did a lot of good work. [00:07:31.720 – 00:07:41.780] And this, uh, piece that ev- that everybody had in their envelope on emotional s- sobriety [00:07:41.780 – 00:07:45.260] is, uh, it, it, it's a good piece. [00:07:45.260 – 00:07:55.340] And I'm not gonna dissect it, but I wanna, I wanna draw your attention to one thing at the very bottom of it, where [00:07:55.340 – 00:08:02.300] he, he said this, and, and I'll, I'll read it out loud and slow for our Scottish friends.

[00:08:02.300 – 00:08:10.680] I was over there, the last time I spoke to a group over there, I said, "I gotta get out of here. [00:08:10.680 – 00:08:17.920] I'm beginning to understand you people." It took, it took 10 days to get to understand. [00:08:17.920 – 00:08:20.500] And so I'll speak slowly. [00:08:20.500 – 00:08:31.400] And here's what Bill said: "Of course, I haven't offered you a really new idea, only a gimmick that has started to unlock [00:08:31.400 – 00:08:34.420] several of my own hexes at depth. [00:08:34.420 – 00:08:43.040] Nowadays, my brain no longer races compulsively in either elation, grandiosity, or depression.

[00:08:43.040 – 00:08:53.540] I've been given a quiet place in bright sunshine." And I think that's an important, uh, end, and it's almost a, [00:08:53.540 – 00:08:56.460] a disclaimer in a way that, um… [00:08:56.460 – 00:09:02.800] And, and say this just as, as, as my belief, not just opinion, but as my belief. [00:09:02.800 – 00:09:12.960] I believe that our set of principles, uh, embodied in 12 steps, are more than [00:09:12.960 – 00:09:17.740] adequate for the overwhelming majority of people who come into Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:09:17.740 – 00:09:28.420] The overwhelming majority of us seem to be able to recover very s- very nicely, very strongly, very adequately

[00:09:28.420 – 00:09:29.680] with the steps alone. [00:09:29.680 – 00:09:40.200] Now, there are some, there are some who have disabilities or handicaps or whatever that go beyond [00:09:40.200 – 00:09:41.340] the capability. [00:09:41.340 – 00:09:46.820] There are some people who have genuine disabilities that have to be addressed. [00:09:46.820 – 00:09:56.880] And, and I personally think it's awfully important to be willing and prepared to refer that person to the right source if they have problems [00:09:56.880 – 00:09:58.660] that exceed our capabilities. [00:09:58.660 – 00:10:05.700] And in sponsorship, I think that's one of the real responsibility is know when I'm getting in water deeper than I can handle.

[00:10:05.700 – 00:10:06.460] Mm. [00:10:06.460 – 00:10:16.530] And so when we talk about something like, um, whoops, like, like this subject of emot- [00:10:16.530 – 00:10:26.540] uh, emotional sobriety, I, I really like to look at that in the context of, of, uh, first, that, are the steps adequate to [00:10:26.540 – 00:10:27.940] give me exactly what I need? [00:10:27.940 – 00:10:34.220] Now, I'm one who so far has been able to get what he needs out, out of the steps, so I'm a little biased in that direction. [00:10:34.220 – 00:10:42.420] Um, and I'm not quarreling with Bill, but he had the kind of mind that was just active.

[00:10:42.420 – 00:10:45.760] You know, he was the kind of guy that was always probing a new horizon. [00:10:45.760 – 00:10:50.000] And, uh, I think till the day he died, he, he had a visionary quality about him. [00:10:50.000 – 00:10:54.230] And, and so I look at this as just a thing, what it basically- [00:10:54.344 – 00:11:04.364] He says, when he gets through with all the visiting is, there's nothing that more effectively treats us than actively working with other people, and not studying [00:11:04.364 – 00:11:05.064] ourselves. [00:11:05.064 – 00:11:05.214] Mm-hmm. [00:11:05.214 – 00:11:14.124] And, um, so anyway, with that little bit of an introduction, l- let me kind of take off with…

[00:11:14.124 – 00:11:18.564] Now these are really well thought out things. [00:11:18.564 – 00:11:22.964] Uh, it probably took me 20 minutes to write them. [00:11:22.964 – 00:11:30.424] And but, you know, when I s- when I do something quickly, it tends to be my best work. [00:11:30.424 – 00:11:31.584] Mm-hmm. [00:11:31.584 – 00:11:35.904] If I labor over it, I get it so screwed up I can't even read it. [00:11:35.904 – 00:11:41.964] Because when I start throwing thoughts out, what I'll do is start censoring and editing. [00:11:41.964 – 00:11:45.524] The more I think about it, the more complex I make it.

[00:11:45.524 – 00:11:45.804] Mm-hmm. [00:11:45.804 – 00:11:54.064] And almost always, after about two hours of visiting outer space- I would go right back to where I started. [00:11:54.064 – 00:11:57.204] And so my first idea is usually the best it gets. [00:11:57.204 – 00:12:01.924] So even though this is a crude looking piece of work, I don't apologize for it. [00:12:01.924 – 00:12:03.984] It probably would be smarter if I spent a month doing it. [00:12:03.984 – 00:12:13.984] What, what I, what I, what I, what I did was just try to think about what are some things that interfere with good, sound, emotional

[00:12:13.984 – 00:12:14.484] sobriety? [00:12:14.484 – 00:12:14.704] Mm. [00:12:14.704 – 00:12:15.884] Recovery. [00:12:15.884 – 00:12:17.704] What are things that interfere with that? [00:12:17.704 – 00:12:23.044] And some of these you'll recognize, some of them you probably will, will identify with. [00:12:23.044 – 00:12:23.844] And not many of them. [00:12:23.844 – 00:12:27.084] There's only 27, and I ran out of time. [00:12:27.084 – 00:12:29.264] Could, could have listed some more. [00:12:29.264 – 00:12:34.924] I won't elaborate too much on, on, on any of them 'cause that would take till Sunday afternoon. [00:12:34.924 – 00:12:38.444] And so I won't get into that too deeply this, at this point. [00:12:38.444 – 00:12:41.324] One, expectations. [00:12:41.324 – 00:12:43.114] Mm. [00:12:43.114 – 00:12:53.164] And, uh, I put that one high on the list because I think that is a genuinely troubling kind of quality that, th- in our

[00:12:53.164 – 00:12:55.484] society, and certainly in our society of AA. [00:12:55.484 – 00:13:05.664] And so much so that I've gotten to a point that I don't put expectations on anybody for anything, [00:13:05.664 – 00:13:07.544] to the best of my ability. [00:13:07.544 – 00:13:09.584] And I think I do pretty well at that. [00:13:09.584 – 00:13:11.184] I, I don't put expectation. [00:13:11.184 – 00:13:16.424] Any time I put expectations on people, I will be disappointed. [00:13:16.424 – 00:13:17.593] Mm. [00:13:17.593 – 00:13:18.884] Because humans are humans. [00:13:18.884 – 00:13:22.204] We're fallible, and we're gonna disappoint. [00:13:22.204 – 00:13:25.604] We're not gonna perform the way somebody put the expectations on us to do.

[00:13:25.604 – 00:13:26.954] So I don't put expectations. [00:13:26.954 – 00:13:33.784] And by doing that, I protect myself from a very disruptive thing. [00:13:33.784 – 00:13:41.544] When I put expectations on somebody, what I do is give them free access to my mind. [00:13:41.544 – 00:13:42.533] Mm. [00:13:42.533 – 00:13:44.084] They own my mind. [00:13:44.084 – 00:13:48.124] And I'm jealous about who owns my mind. [00:13:48.124 – 00:13:52.244] So I don't want somebody living in my head. [00:13:52.244 – 00:14:01.264] And so if I put expectations and I wind up getting thwarted or frustrated in it, I'm gonna tend to be a little bit disenchanted with that, that whole business.

[00:14:01.264 – 00:14:12.504] So expectations, yeah, that is, is, is a great creator of e- emotional turmoil, [00:14:12.504 – 00:14:13.544] I guess you could call it. [00:14:13.544 – 00:14:15.944] Old ideas. [00:14:15.944 – 00:14:17.924] Old ideas. [00:14:17.924 – 00:14:24.044] In '65 I went up to Canada. [00:14:24.044 – 00:14:26.924] I was brave enough to go up to, to my first international. [00:14:26.924 – 00:14:33.324] And there was a, a, a bad drunk came in that I, I was working with some from the state of Michigan. [00:14:33.324 – 00:14:35.964] We really are a kind of geographically mixed bunch. [00:14:35.964 – 00:14:38.444] This guy came in, he was all excited.

[00:14:38.444 – 00:14:40.444] He was real knucklehead anyway. [00:14:40.444 – 00:14:42.464] But he, he was real excited. [00:14:42.464 – 00:14:44.564] He said, "Come on out to the car, man. [00:14:44.564 – 00:14:51.424] I gotta show you something." And I said, "Well, all right, let's go." So I went in, he opened the trunk. [00:14:51.424 – 00:14:55.924] Somebody had just invented near beer. [00:14:55.924 – 00:15:06.244] I said, "Tell me what that is." So he explained to me about its, uh, delightful qualities, [00:15:06.244 – 00:15:07.904] and that it was totally non-alcoholic. [00:15:07.904 – 00:15:09.864] Didn't read the label very well. [00:15:09.864 – 00:15:12.544] But that it was totally non-alcoholic.

[00:15:12.544 – 00:15:16.184] But what he had was a case of old ideas. [00:15:16.184 – 00:15:18.204] A case of old ideas. [00:15:18.204 – 00:15:24.504] And, and, and old ideas have gotta be upsetting to, to my emotional sobriety. [00:15:24.504 – 00:15:28.904] And old ideas come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. [00:15:28.904 – 00:15:39.084] You ever listen to folks, it'll tend to be folks in their first, say five years and less of sobriety, who quite, don't know quite [00:15:39.084 – 00:15:40.744] what to do with themselves socially. [00:15:40.744 – 00:15:42.784] You're kind of lost. [00:15:42.784 – 00:15:46.584] You can't hang out with the old crowd, can't go back to the old haunts.

[00:15:46.584 – 00:15:53.164] And then sometimes will get just agitated enough that they'll wanna go to a place that has dancing. [00:15:53.164 – 00:15:53.844] Mm-hmm. [00:15:53.844 – 00:15:55.744] Not to drink, of course. [00:15:55.744 – 00:15:58.844] But to dance. [00:15:58.844 – 00:16:00.514] Mm-hmm. [00:16:00.514 – 00:16:03.464] Well, that's called an old idea. [00:16:03.464 – 00:16:12.004] Uh, when I find my comfort and my, and my, my joys and satisfaction in my old hangouts, that's an old idea. [00:16:12.004 – 00:16:17.784] And as long as I'm pursuing that, uh, I'm not gonna have a whole lot of peace, I don't think. [00:16:17.784 – 00:16:24.824] So old ideas, that, those things that sort of hang on, that still have some attractiveness to it.

[00:16:24.824 – 00:16:26.584] That we, we, we romance. [00:16:26.584 – 00:16:28.464] And old ideas. [00:16:28.464 – 00:16:33.924] Limit- limited or unclear commitments. [00:16:33.924 – 00:16:37.064] Limited or unclear commitments. [00:16:37.064 – 00:16:47.024] I believe that one of the most important things I do in Alcoholics Anonymous is make real commitments. [00:16:47.024 – 00:16:52.904] And a commitment means that I'm gonna do what that commitment says I'll do. [00:16:52.904 – 00:17:04.194] Uh, my good friend Jack had to leave this morning because he had a, a commitment that he had made- [00:17:04.194 – 00:17:09.094] You, though you could say it wasn't a direct anything, it had to do with taking care of an autistic child.

[00:17:09.094 – 00:17:19.134] He tried everything under the sun to find a way to do, uh, to, uh, to be able to stay with us, but he had a [00:17:19.134 – 00:17:27.514] commitment that he couldn't get satisfied another way, and so he left with dignity and honor. [00:17:27.514 – 00:17:30.454] See what I'm talking about? [00:17:30.454 – 00:17:33.094] You know, selfishly, he wanted to hang out with us. [00:17:33.094 – 00:17:37.894] Selfishly, he wanted to be here with us and explore something, but he honored a commitment. [00:17:37.894 – 00:17:41.434] Better man for it. [00:17:41.434 – 00:17:44.354] You know, commitments are awfully important.

[00:17:44.354 – 00:17:49.434] That commitments that are lightly made are easily broken. [00:17:49.434 – 00:17:51.234] Yeah. [00:17:51.234 – 00:18:01.254] I heard somebody inviting a speaker one time to, to, to, to come somewhere and speak, and the speaker said, uh, "Yeah, [00:18:01.254 – 00:18:11.604] I, I, that, that date's open, but I don't know for certain, I can't guarantee you that I'll be there because something else might come up." Mm. [00:18:11.604 – 00:18:16.554] I guarantee you my eraser would've been in action very quickly. [00:18:16.554 – 00:18:22.914] And I would've withdrawn that invitation because my God, what is that?

[00:18:22.914 – 00:18:32.954] You know, you know, a commitment are things that I am absolutely going to do, like my home group, [00:18:32.954 – 00:18:33.534] for example. [00:18:33.534 – 00:18:35.954] My home group is a commitment. [00:18:35.954 – 00:18:40.814] It's not under the heading of nice to do, and it's not negotiable. [00:18:40.814 – 00:18:43.153] That's something I do. [00:18:43.153 – 00:18:50.294] I have a prison commitment that I do every Wednesday night, un- unless I've got an overriding service thing. [00:18:50.294 – 00:18:51.094] Same with my home group. [00:18:51.094 – 00:18:59.484] If I've got an overriding service thing that I, I really feel like is more valuable that night, and I'm not abandoning a commitment, then, then I'll do something.

[00:18:59.484 – 00:19:05.134] But otherwise, those are commitments, and they really do a lot to steady my life. [00:19:05.134 – 00:19:07.854] I'm not a meeting guy. [00:19:07.854 – 00:19:13.054] Yeah, I mean, I don't have the, a, a lot of time on my hands to just s- sort of fish around for meetings. [00:19:13.054 – 00:19:16.674] Most of the things I do are planful and they're, and they're committed. [00:19:16.674 – 00:19:23.174] But commitments do a great deal to settle me in, to give me a strong foundation. [00:19:23.174 – 00:19:26.874] If you ask me what my commitments are, I just told you.

[00:19:26.874 – 00:19:31.034] I've got two nights at my home group, one at my prison commitment. [00:19:31.034 – 00:19:36.454] Everything else I do is negotiable until I make a commitment. [00:19:36.454 – 00:19:41.094] Like coming to Milton, Lake Milton, Ohio. [00:19:41.094 – 00:19:44.574] That was negotiable before we got it on the book. [00:19:44.574 – 00:19:46.954] But when it's on the book, then it's not negotiable. [00:19:46.954 – 00:19:48.034] I got… [00:19:48.034 – 00:19:50.414] She was talking about Dave Denny a little, little earlier. [00:19:50.414 – 00:19:55.994] Uh, s- s- sometimes those commitments will get you in a little bit of a hot water.

[00:19:55.994 – 00:20:06.774] I'd made a commitment to be in Chicago for the Illinois State Convention, and, uh, and [00:20:06.774 – 00:20:08.634] I, I, I loved it, those folk. [00:20:08.634 – 00:20:10.614] It wouldn't matter if I hated them, it was a commitment. [00:20:10.614 – 00:20:11.274] I'd go anyway. [00:20:11.274 – 00:20:16.454] Well, it's a strange thing. [00:20:16.454 – 00:20:21.214] People don't always mean the same thing by the same words. [00:20:21.214 – 00:20:28.234] First weekend, it may have a totally different meaning to you than it does me. [00:20:28.234 – 00:20:32.614] Well, we didn't discuss that when we made the commitment in Chicago.

[00:20:32.614 – 00:20:36.074] Guy said first weekend. [00:20:36.074 – 00:20:43.394] Well, to him, the first weekend meant Saturday was the weekend. [00:20:43.394 – 00:20:46.174] Well, I always mean Friday. [00:20:46.174 – 00:20:53.133] Well, Dave Denny called, and I made a commitment to be in Tampa on what he perceived to be the first weekend. [00:20:53.133 – 00:20:55.994] Turned out it was the same weekend. [00:20:55.994 – 00:20:57.834] Well, that's a dilemma. [00:20:57.834 – 00:21:01.694] You know, for somebody that wants to honor commitments, those, those, that's a dilemma. [00:21:01.694 – 00:21:09.394] And, uh, so, you know, what, what I have to do when I do something like that is go back to what did you put down first.

[00:21:09.394 – 00:21:13.674] Now let me tell you what was a real crisis about that. [00:21:13.674 – 00:21:21.754] The, the conference we were gonna do in Tampa was my sponsorship line. [00:21:21.754 – 00:21:23.414] We would hold conference. [00:21:23.414 – 00:21:25.033] My sponsorship line. [00:21:25.033 – 00:21:27.554] My sponsor from Canada was coming down. [00:21:27.554 – 00:21:32.074] Me, my, one big guy for me, one guy for him. [00:21:32.074 – 00:21:33.514] We would conference. [00:21:33.514 – 00:21:34.174] Man, what a… [00:21:34.174 – 00:21:36.674] That's a once in a lifetime opportunity. [00:21:36.674 – 00:21:42.454] And I looked at that book, and Chicago was first. [00:21:42.454 – 00:21:48.434] And I called Dave down in Florida and I said, "Buddy, I hate to tell you, but I'm not gonna be able to come."

[00:21:49.841 – 00:21:51.641] And he about had a duck fit. [00:21:51.641 – 00:21:53.681] He's, he's a nice man. [00:21:53.681 – 00:21:56.921] He, he really was a nice guy, but he wasn't that day. [00:21:56.921 – 00:21:59.441] He said, "Oh, no, you gotta come now. [00:21:59.441 – 00:22:03.841] You just said you'd come, you just gotta come 'cause the whole thing collapses. [00:22:03.841 – 00:22:12.841] You take out one domino to fall." And I said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I can't do it." I said, "I'm, I'm, uh, speaking Saturday night up there. [00:22:12.841 – 00:22:17.541] If I get out of there on Saturday, there's no plane coming out of there on Saturday night.

[00:22:17.541 – 00:22:17.781] I… [00:22:17.781 – 00:22:18.361] And it would… [00:22:18.361 – 00:22:28.461] Only one day left anyway." And he said, "Well, that's not right." He said, "We go through Monday." Well, my God, isn't it amazing, you know, those things that [00:22:28.461 – 00:22:31.041] you have the most dilemma about- That's right … [00:22:31.041 – 00:22:31.781] was no problem. [00:22:31.781 – 00:22:33.041] No problem. [00:22:33.041 – 00:22:34.221] He says, "Shoot, man. [00:22:34.221 – 00:22:36.501] Now get on down here, and we'll do it." So we're se- I think… [00:22:36.501 – 00:22:38.781] Of course, they packed me up for two days down there. [00:22:38.781 – 00:22:48.781] But see, commitments are important, and if I don't honor that, if I get frivolous about that, I'll pay a price because it will impact

[00:22:48.781 – 00:22:50.121] my personal integrity. [00:22:50.121 – 00:22:54.661] It will impact how I function as a member, as the kind of member I want. [00:22:54.661 – 00:23:03.661] It will impact my emotional sobriety because those are actions that are committed to do, and if I don't do them, I pay a price for them. [00:23:03.661 – 00:23:12.661] Dishonesty absolutely eat my lunch, and even if it's just an insinuated… [00:23:12.661 – 00:23:14.541] I've almost quit lying. [00:23:14.541 – 00:23:17.101] I mean, I don't lie now unless it's absolutely necessary. [00:23:17.101 – 00:23:22.601] I'm not gonna tell somebody they got an ugly baby.

[00:23:22.601 – 00:23:23.391] Right. [00:23:23.391 – 00:23:24.861] No, they're all beautiful. [00:23:24.861 – 00:23:26.001] I… [00:23:26.001 – 00:23:36.261] But sometimes I will agree with somebody who thinks [00:23:36.261 – 00:23:40.141] something that ain't right, and I won't take the time to straighten it out. [00:23:40.141 – 00:23:40.821] And I say, "Oh, yeah. [00:23:40.821 – 00:23:41.201] Okay. [00:23:41.201 – 00:23:50.221] Yeah." Well, that bothers me because if I allow somebody else to lie on my behalf, and I agree, I'm part of it. [00:23:50.221 – 00:23:52.561] So dishonesty, you know, it doesn't go away. [00:23:52.561 – 00:23:58.580] You know, that thing's gonna eat on me and eat on me, and lo and behold, I'm looking for something called emotional sobriety.

[00:23:58.580 – 00:24:01.781] Not practicing principles. [00:24:01.781 – 00:24:06.681] I think Kent said it awfully well last night that… [00:24:06.681 – 00:24:14.101] He said a lot of stuff awfully well last night, but he was talking about the, the, the principles don't mean much if I do them in the walls. [00:24:14.101 – 00:24:18.621] It's what I do with them outside the walls, what I do in my life, you know. [00:24:18.621 – 00:24:20.841] What is it I do to practice these principles? [00:24:20.841 – 00:24:24.361] And if I don't practice them on the highway, I don't have any.

[00:24:24.361 – 00:24:27.121] I've just got sort of a part-time application. [00:24:27.121 – 00:24:32.681] And, and so those principles, if I don't practice those principles, if I… [00:24:32.681 – 00:24:41.161] If, if what you see is not what I've, what I, what I say I am, goodbye emotional sobriety. [00:24:41.161 – 00:24:42.401] Goodbye. [00:24:42.401 – 00:24:46.801] Because I'm, I'm, I am totally lacking integrity if I do that. [00:24:46.801 – 00:24:47.701] So those… [00:24:47.701 – 00:24:50.441] Not practicing the principles, and that means everywhere. [00:24:50.441 – 00:24:52.501] It means in, uh… [00:24:52.501 – 00:25:00.621] I was trying to get out of, of Glasgow the other day, and, uh, I thought we had some zoos of airports.

[00:25:00.621 – 00:25:01.141] We do. [00:25:01.141 – 00:25:05.301] But my God, they told me to be there three hours early. [00:25:05.301 – 00:25:10.881] I said, "For what?" I saw when I got there. [00:25:10.881 – 00:25:13.901] I needed a little more time. [00:25:13.901 – 00:25:15.061] Yeah. [00:25:15.061 – 00:25:18.531] But even then, you know, uh, it, it… [00:25:18.531 – 00:25:20.041] I had a good time going through that. [00:25:20.041 – 00:25:24.881] I mean, I didn't enjoy the three-hour wait, but I guarantee you we had a good time. [00:25:24.881 – 00:25:28.721] Uh, there was one old security boy standing there. [00:25:28.721 – 00:25:31.821] He looked like a statue, you know, just standing there.

[00:25:31.821 – 00:25:33.881] So I went over there and just messed with him a little bit. [00:25:33.881 – 00:25:38.521] And, uh, and, and the first thing you know, he yucking it up, you know. [00:25:38.521 – 00:25:45.581] And so, you know, instead of being tense and, and all this kind of junk, you know, here were just some human beings, and he had the same… [00:25:45.581 – 00:25:46.681] He had a worse place than me. [00:25:46.681 – 00:25:47.681] He wasn't going nowhere. [00:25:47.681 – 00:25:49.101] He's just staying there. [00:25:49.101 – 00:25:53.161] But, you know, uh, to me, that's what practicing the principles are about.

[00:25:53.161 – 00:25:58.501] It, it's about sort of being the kind of guy I want to be where, where I am. [00:25:58.501 – 00:26:01.181] Resentment. [00:26:01.181 – 00:26:04.400] Uh, I know none of us ever had any problem with that, but… [00:26:04.400 – 00:26:14.861] The best definition I've ever heard of resentment in my life is it's an irritation [00:26:14.861 – 00:26:18.501] that turns inward and gets infected. [00:26:18.501 – 00:26:20.251] Mm-hmm. [00:26:20.251 – 00:26:21.020] And oh, boy. [00:26:21.020 – 00:26:29.081] Isn't it amazing how the least little thing that turns in, if I don't deal with it, just grows? [00:26:29.081 – 00:26:30.321] It just grows. [00:26:30.321 – 00:26:36.901] And then some minor nothing issue becomes tantamount to the Third World War.

[00:26:36.901 – 00:26:37.351] You know what I mean? [00:26:37.351 – 00:26:47.601] And so anyway, those things, when I'm carrying around resentment, my peace of mind, my emotional sobriety, it's being owned by somebody. [00:26:47.601 – 00:26:49.041] It's being owned. [00:26:49.041 – 00:26:50.411] I tell you the dumbest… [00:26:50.411 – 00:26:52.161] It taught me a lesson early on. [00:26:52.161 – 00:26:56.481] First time I ever tried to do, deal with a resentment, we have a sug- suggestion program. [00:26:56.481 – 00:27:00.441] Had a guy that I was, was in the same group with. [00:27:00.441 – 00:27:02.121] We, we all were nearly always the same meeting.

[00:27:02.121 – 00:27:07.641] And I thought that guy's only purpose for coming to AA was to argue with me. [00:27:07.641 – 00:27:14.301] And, uh, and, uh, I, I, I was just, I was just irritated about that, you know? [00:27:14.301 – 00:27:15.841] And ne- never did talk with him. [00:27:15.841 – 00:27:18.801] So it went on a few months, and, and I just got so I just couldn't stand that guy. [00:27:18.801 – 00:27:21.721] He was on my mind all the time, and I said, "Ah, heck. [00:27:21.721 – 00:27:29.601] I'm gonna try some of this stuff." So I went up to him, told him, I said, "Look, we need to talk and see if we can settle this thing." He didn't know what I was talking about.

[00:27:29.601 – 00:27:32.431] Had no clue what I was talking about. [00:27:32.431 – 00:27:36.541] I'd been fighting for three or four months by myself, you know? [00:27:36.541 – 00:27:40.941] And felt like the village idiot. [00:27:40.941 – 00:27:41.531] I felt… [00:27:41.531 – 00:27:44.561] Oh my God. [00:27:44.561 – 00:27:45.311] You know? [00:27:45.311 – 00:27:46.641] That's what resentment does. [00:27:46.641 – 00:27:47.981] It doesn't have to make sense. [00:27:47.981 – 00:27:49.071] Yeah. [00:27:49.071 – 00:27:52.921] It just has to be something that I've got feeling about, and that sucker will grow. [00:27:52.921 – 00:27:54.021] You know? [00:27:54.021 – 00:27:58.533] Um- Feeling beleaguered. [00:27:58.533 – 00:28:00.523] Who? [00:28:00.523 – 00:28:01.613] Feeling beleaguered. [00:28:01.613 – 00:28:02.703] I believe you. [00:28:02.703 – 00:28:02.933] Yeah. [00:28:02.933 – 00:28:05.693] That's, that, you know, that, uh… [00:28:05.693 – 00:28:07.833] It's like guys on the committee.

[00:28:07.833 – 00:28:15.513] You know, that y- y- you were right when you were talking about the folk on a committee for a conference are under a lot of heat, under a lot of pressure. [00:28:15.513 – 00:28:17.553] Now, it's self-imposed. [00:28:17.553 – 00:28:19.253] That's the good part of it. [00:28:19.253 – 00:28:28.453] But it's still, uh, easy to feel like, man, you got the whole world whirling around, and you gotta get stuff done to it now. [00:28:28.453 – 00:28:38.803] You know, I'm involved, uh, at one, one conference in North Carolina I'm heavily involved in, and I've got a, a way to evaluate whether I've done a good job

[00:28:38.803 – 00:28:42.453] of, of, of what I'm doing putting the conference together. [00:28:42.453 – 00:28:50.933] I always evaluate it by how busy I am at the conference, and whether I've got a headache or not. [00:28:50.933 – 00:28:57.713] And I, I can absolutely do my performance appraisal by those two factors. [00:28:57.713 – 00:28:57.973] Yeah. [00:28:57.973 – 00:29:00.153] Is my head hurting, and how busy am I? [00:29:00.153 – 00:29:04.312] And if I've done a good job, that chaos slows down a little. [00:29:04.312 – 00:29:04.853] You know? [00:29:04.853 – 00:29:09.453] But if it does not, yeah, I'm like a, like a one-armed paper hanger.

[00:29:09.453 – 00:29:10.533] That… [00:29:10.533 – 00:29:14.773] Overcommitted, which sounds that way. [00:29:14.773 – 00:29:16.793] Sounds a little like the same thing. [00:29:16.793 – 00:29:19.873] But overcommitted means it's self-imposed. [00:29:19.873 – 00:29:28.033] You know, that, that I'm not thoughtful about what I'm doing and I'm agreeing to stuff just, uh, uh, like that overcommitment with Chicago and Tampa. [00:29:28.033 – 00:29:29.373] That, that was a little bit of, of… [00:29:29.373 – 00:29:31.073] That was just dumb though. [00:29:31.073 – 00:29:32.313] That wasn't bad judgment. [00:29:32.313 – 00:29:33.073] That was just dumb. [00:29:33.073 – 00:29:40.453] And, uh, but, but being overcommitted, that I've got more to do than I can get done.

[00:29:40.453 – 00:29:42.833] And that'll take it away. [00:29:42.833 – 00:29:47.593] Now I, I don't mind telling you that, that I teeter on the brink of that often. [00:29:47.593 – 00:29:48.463] Oh. [00:29:48.463 – 00:29:50.633] Because I've, I've got a heart to serve. [00:29:50.633 – 00:29:53.753] That, that, that's my purpose i- in life. [00:29:53.753 – 00:30:00.773] I, I want to be of service in this fellowship to give back at least as much as I can what's been given me. [00:30:00.773 – 00:30:06.973] And it's for that reason I've developed a, a principle, an ethic, that, uh, I don't say no.

[00:30:06.973 – 00:30:12.833] And when you don't say no, you're gonna be awfully busy. [00:30:12.833 – 00:30:19.693] And, uh, but, and I, I never say no on the basis of personal comfort or convenience. [00:30:19.693 – 00:30:22.453] You know, not for those kinds of reasons. [00:30:22.453 – 00:30:26.073] I, I say no lots of times because I've got something else going on. [00:30:26.073 – 00:30:27.173] I've got another commitment. [00:30:27.173 – 00:30:30.873] And, and so it's, it's… [00:30:30.873 – 00:30:34.493] But that whole business of getting overcommitted can… [00:30:34.493 – 00:30:41.133] All I have to do is take a look at my house an- and where I live and see how overcommitted I might be.

[00:30:41.133 – 00:30:44.473] I've got a wife, whether she knows it or not. [00:30:44.473 – 00:30:45.693] She got… [00:30:45.693 – 00:30:45.853] She… [00:30:45.853 – 00:30:55.333] And, uh, what I have to keep in mind is every time I make a commitment, I also involve her in it, because she's part of it. [00:30:55.333 – 00:31:01.353] And every time I leave on a weekend, I leave her with every ounce of responsibility. [00:31:01.353 – 00:31:10.053] So there are all kinds of ways that overcommitment can, can, can come in, and they, and they are really troubling kind of things.

[00:31:10.053 – 00:31:13.233] Trying to be all things to all people. [00:31:13.233 – 00:31:13.993] Yeah. [00:31:13.993 – 00:31:16.773] Trying to be all things to all people. [00:31:16.773 – 00:31:22.273] I, I read a thing a while back that really… [00:31:22.273 – 00:31:25.753] You, you ever, you ever just read something that just kinda makes your ears burn a little? [00:31:25.753 – 00:31:36.273] Uh, that, that when you read it you just say, "Uh-oh." And it was a, a simple little old quote, said, "People [00:31:36.273 – 00:31:44.753] respond to me as I teach them to do." People respond to me as I teach them to do.

[00:31:44.753 – 00:31:55.533] See, I'm the kind of guy with the kind of drive I have, what I teach people is [00:31:55.533 – 00:31:59.813] if there's something that's gotta be done, don't worry about it. [00:31:59.813 – 00:32:00.553] Just wait a little while. [00:32:00.553 – 00:32:01.733] Old time will take care of that. [00:32:01.733 – 00:32:02.553] Yeah. [00:32:02.553 – 00:32:06.093] That's what I, that's what I teach people. [00:32:06.093 – 00:32:08.463] And, uh, and people understand that. [00:32:08.463 – 00:32:09.483] It's… [00:32:09.483 – 00:32:14.623] But, but I can't blame people for using me what I teach people, is that that's what I do. [00:32:14.623 – 00:32:19.903] And, uh, so that trying to be all things to all…

[00:32:19.903 – 00:32:22.093] Trying to respond to every issue and… [00:32:22.093 – 00:32:32.253] Man, I have to count myself sometime and make sure that I'm not taking on more than is appropriate, that I'm not letting my zeal [00:32:32.253 – 00:32:35.853] push other people out of the opportunity to be of service. [00:32:35.853 – 00:32:42.673] And that's a biggie, because a guy like me can interfere with service involvement [00:32:42.892 – 00:32:43.952] As much as enhance it. [00:32:43.952 – 00:32:53.972] And so it's the principle that, that, that, that, uh, can do away with this whole business about this sense of wholeness and em- and emotional sobriety.

[00:32:53.972 – 00:32:58.212] Activity versus action. [00:32:58.212 – 00:33:02.552] Activity versus action is, uh… [00:33:02.552 – 00:33:03.572] Hey, thanks, Bob. [00:33:03.572 – 00:33:12.272] The, uh, and I, I think that's, it prob- it may be pretty well understood. [00:33:12.272 – 00:33:18.012] Both are, both are worthwhile things. [00:33:18.012 – 00:33:28.092] I, I think my first few years, uh, maybe the first five years or first 50, something like that … [00:33:28.092 – 00:33:34.932] No, for about, no, no, seriously, about the first five years, I was incredibly active. [00:33:34.932 – 00:33:39.472] Now I'm active now, but I was incredibly active. [00:33:39.472 – 00:33:43.792] Uh, you know, we, we sometimes we bemoan the fact that we're not getting 12 steps call.

[00:33:43.792 – 00:33:46.192] I've had three at the same time. [00:33:46.192 – 00:33:48.112] You know, never mind the same day. [00:33:48.112 – 00:33:56.692] I've had three at the same time, and you get th- three crazy drunks in the car trying to get them under some kind of control, that will really keep you busy. [00:33:56.692 – 00:33:57.422] Mm. [00:33:57.422 – 00:34:01.612] And, uh, and so I was frantically active. [00:34:01.612 – 00:34:06.632] I, I was trying to build AA in a town, you know, that, that was just deader than a doornail. [00:34:06.632 – 00:34:12.952] And, uh, in retrospect, when I look back at that, that was valuable.

[00:34:12.952 – 00:34:19.312] That activity was valuable because what it did was protect me from myself. [00:34:19.312 – 00:34:20.782] Mm. [00:34:20.782 – 00:34:24.192] And I would've been dangerous le- left unattended. [00:34:24.192 – 00:34:34.242] So that gave me that real, real protection of being strongly involved in things that had meaning, and it gave me a sense of, of, of usefulness and [00:34:34.242 – 00:34:35.492] purpose. [00:34:35.492 – 00:34:41.312] They were extremely useful, but it would've been pretty bad had I just continued to do that forever. [00:34:41.312 – 00:34:45.472] And, and so it's, um… [00:34:45.472 – 00:34:54.912] I, I'll give you one example of, of, of that, that, uh, and then, and then just mention about action.

[00:34:54.912 – 00:34:57.691] I'll tell you one of the downsides of something like that. [00:34:57.691 – 00:35:07.692] When, when I was in that city and we were trying to get AA going there, I was a very, very, very active man, and, uh, I [00:35:07.692 – 00:35:09.552] sponsored about everybody in town. [00:35:09.552 – 00:35:14.272] And, uh, interesting thing happened. [00:35:14.272 – 00:35:17.012] I stayed in that town two years, and we got a good group going. [00:35:17.012 – 00:35:24.151] Stayed there two years, but when I moved away, everybody I sponsored but one got drunk. [00:35:24.151 – 00:35:27.252] Now, that'll rattle your cage.

[00:35:27.252 – 00:35:28.752] That'll rattle your cage. [00:35:28.752 – 00:35:39.112] And I thought, "My God, what's going on?" And what I realized is that, you know, if you had gone to any one of those people and [00:35:39.112 – 00:35:45.232] said, "Who is the best sponsor in the known world?" Guarantee you it would've been Tom I. [00:35:45.232 – 00:35:55.292] Well my sponsorship at that time r- was literally [00:35:55.292 – 00:35:56.192] get in the car. [00:35:56.192 – 00:35:58.872] Uh, we're going somewhere. [00:35:58.872 – 00:36:05.751] We were taking convoys of people to go and do missionary work in other towns and all- God knows what all.

[00:36:05.751 – 00:36:12.702] And so, you know, what they were doing were just sort of like those sheep follow folk over there. [00:36:12.702 – 00:36:14.692] They got more sheep in Scotland than people. [00:36:14.692 – 00:36:17.152] That, I was amazed at that. [00:36:17.152 – 00:36:23.672] Well, anyway, uh, that's a whole other story. [00:36:23.672 – 00:36:30.972] But that is something else. [00:36:30.972 – 00:36:31.042] I… [00:36:31.042 – 00:36:33.892] Well, I, anyway, I, I'm gonna avoid that 'cause they… [00:36:33.892 – 00:36:37.172] But you see what I'm talking about? [00:36:37.172 – 00:36:38.892] You know, I was a charismatic leader. [00:36:38.892 – 00:36:40.412] You know, I was like the Pied Piper. [00:36:40.412 – 00:36:41.352] You know, just, "Come on, guys.

[00:36:41.352 – 00:36:41.912] Go with me. [00:36:41.912 – 00:36:42.972] Don't worry about where we're going. [00:36:42.972 – 00:36:43.732] Just get in the car. [00:36:43.732 – 00:36:48.592] Let's go." Well, that's wonderful as long as you're there to herd the sheep. [00:36:48.592 – 00:36:50.352] Mm. [00:36:50.352 – 00:36:54.752] But in reality, I was doing a great disservice to those people. [00:36:54.752 – 00:37:04.821] Rather than taking the time to help them understand the solution, not only would they have said I was the best sponsor in the world, they'd have said, "What's the [00:37:04.821 – 00:37:11.132] solution?" Says, "Do what Tom says." Well, that's great, but it's an awfully limited way to do it, isn't it?

[00:37:11.132 – 00:37:17.192] And so that's activity, you know, of, of just frantically rushing from one thing to another. [00:37:17.192 – 00:37:19.292] Action's a little different. [00:37:19.292 – 00:37:23.412] A, an, an action, like doing the steps is an action. [00:37:23.412 – 00:37:31.192] Doing, that's an action, where we're taking a concrete, specific action that's got a real purpose involved in it. [00:37:31.192 – 00:37:33.951] A home group is an action. [00:37:33.951 – 00:37:37.792] Making 90 meetings in 90 days is activity. [00:37:37.792 – 00:37:40.952] There, there's a different quality to that. [00:37:40.952 – 00:37:51.292] An action is something that anchors me into a solid affiliation so that I'm taking a stand, I'm, I, I belong somewhere,

[00:37:51.292 – 00:37:57.112] and, and I start to do purposeful things rather than just staying busy. [00:37:57.112 – 00:37:59.092] And so big difference. [00:37:59.092 – 00:38:09.112] That, that, to the untrained eye, they don't look that different, but the difference is in the solidity and what it produces in terms of healthy recovery [00:38:09.112 – 00:38:11.652] and responsible kinds of actions in the program. [00:38:11.652 – 00:38:19.632] Um, me versus we thinking. [00:38:19.632 – 00:38:22.552] Me versus we thinking. [00:38:22.552 – 00:38:25.672] That, you know, some of that certainly is in place. [00:38:25.672 – 00:38:27.432] I mean, this is a selfish program. [00:38:27.432 – 00:38:35.692] We'll talk a, a little more about this one later on, but me versus we is where I'm thinking only in terms of me and what I get.

[00:38:35.692 – 00:38:43.852] Uh, tell you, it's been an awful lot of years since I've gone to a meeting and had any thought whatsoever about what I needed. [00:38:43.852 – 00:38:46.392] I mean, many, many years. [00:38:46.392 – 00:38:48.484] I don't do that in meetings. [00:38:48.484 – 00:38:53.104] What I go to meetings for is to contribute and to be a part of it, to sit in the fellowship. [00:38:53.104 – 00:38:54.284] It's not… [00:38:54.284 – 00:39:02.824] It, it, it becomes a we thing, so that when I go to a meeting, I've got many functions and, and, and, and what I need is rarely on the agenda.

[00:39:02.824 – 00:39:08.924] So, and we'll visit that one some more a little, little bit later on. [00:39:08.924 – 00:39:13.903] Carrying the world on my shoulders. [00:39:13.903 – 00:39:17.864] It's a heavy thing. [00:39:17.864 – 00:39:19.484] Heavy thing. [00:39:19.484 – 00:39:20.704] Yeah. [00:39:20.704 – 00:39:25.704] Us- using people. [00:39:25.704 – 00:39:27.624] Using people. [00:39:27.624 – 00:39:34.644] If, if I take advantage of somebody, if I start using people, I'm gonna pay a price for that. [00:39:34.644 – 00:39:35.123] Yeah. [00:39:35.123 – 00:39:41.664] Of not think in terms of their welfare, but think in terms of just their usefulness to me, if something I wanna get done. [00:39:41.664 – 00:39:46.924] Self-centeredness. [00:39:46.924 – 00:39:48.764] Self-centeredness. [00:39:48.764 – 00:39:51.764] It really relates to what I was just talking about.

[00:39:51.764 – 00:39:55.624] If I'm, if, if all I'm thinking about is me and my… [00:39:55.624 – 00:39:57.724] If, if you think about… [00:39:57.724 – 00:40:07.744] Well, I'll just say this, and then we will come back on this one as well, but, uh, you know, a lot of times i- in, in our [00:40:07.744 – 00:40:16.604] meetings, as opposed to a group, uh, in a meeting, the agenda is almost always gonna be about me and my recovery. [00:40:16.604 – 00:40:22.604] Rarely gets beyond that into broader issues, of, of broader concern. [00:40:22.604 – 00:40:27.504] They'll tend to be pretty much narrowly focused on me and my recovery.

[00:40:27.504 – 00:40:35.484] Now, that's a, that's a great thing, uh, but by itself, uh, it bears a little, little looking. [00:40:35.484 – 00:40:42.884] Um, criticism and gossip. [00:40:42.884 – 00:40:44.824] Ooh. [00:40:44.824 – 00:40:46.204] Yeah. [00:40:46.204 – 00:40:48.104] Now, that's personal, isn't it? [00:40:48.104 – 00:40:51.364] That's criticism and gossip. [00:40:51.364 – 00:41:01.444] I, I'm, I'm one, I'll just say it very simply, I'm one that, uh, I, I think criticism is [00:41:01.444 – 00:41:03.184] a, is a very, is a negative thing. [00:41:03.184 – 00:41:04.324] I don't care what you call it. [00:41:04.324 – 00:41:07.324] You know, constructive criticism is a myth. [00:41:07.324 – 00:41:08.424] There's no such thing. [00:41:08.424 – 00:41:10.464] If criticism is criticism.

[00:41:10.464 – 00:41:12.964] You don't need to dignify it with some softening word. [00:41:12.964 – 00:41:14.024] It's criticism. [00:41:14.024 – 00:41:14.344] That's… [00:41:14.344 – 00:41:19.704] And, and I find it to have very little, very little, uh, value. [00:41:19.704 – 00:41:24.984] Gossip, just another extension of that, that, uh, you know… [00:41:24.984 – 00:41:28.884] I, I really believe that gossip is a dangerous thing. [00:41:28.884 – 00:41:30.154] It's a dangerous thing. [00:41:30.154 – 00:41:40.504] It can be a deadly thing, and particularly in a s- well, anywhere, but in, in our society, where trust is critically important. [00:41:40.504 – 00:41:43.244] Trust is critically important. [00:41:43.244 – 00:41:53.384] I, I don't think we can overestimate how important it is that we not get casual about what we do in our meetings and, and fail

[00:41:53.384 – 00:41:56.284] to honor the trust that's implied in that. [00:41:56.284 – 00:42:06.304] When we get to a place that we can't comfortably open up and share intimate personal stuff, I think we got real trouble [00:42:06.304 – 00:42:06.704] with that. [00:42:06.704 – 00:42:14.384] And, and so any kind of a conversation about somebody who's not present is, is high risk. [00:42:14.384 – 00:42:15.504] It's high risk. [00:42:15.504 – 00:42:19.444] And, uh, I don't think I do that. [00:42:19.444 – 00:42:20.884] I, I don't, I don't think I do. [00:42:20.884 – 00:42:22.544] If I do, it's totally unconscious. [00:42:22.544 – 00:42:25.364] I don't listen to it.

[00:42:25.364 – 00:42:28.064] I don't s- I don't spread it, and I don't listen to it. [00:42:28.064 – 00:42:30.164] Because if I listen to it, I'm part of it. [00:42:30.164 – 00:42:35.844] Had, had a guy in my home group the other day that flagged me down when I was walking by. [00:42:35.844 – 00:42:45.904] He told me somewhere, and he said, he said, "I saw some old buddies." They said, "You know what one of those guys said about you?" And I said, "No." He said, "You [00:42:45.904 – 00:42:55.984] wanna know?" And I said, "No." And he said, "You mean you don't know and don't, don't wanna know what somebody said?" I said, "Listen, I would not waste 10 seconds of

[00:42:55.984 – 00:43:01.564] my time on some idiotic thing that somebody said in some…" No. [00:43:01.564 – 00:43:02.414] I have no interest. [00:43:02.414 – 00:43:03.524] I got more important things to do. [00:43:03.524 – 00:43:05.604] I was on the way to go talk to a newcomer. [00:43:05.604 – 00:43:07.004] I'm gonna sit there and listen to that? [00:43:07.004 – 00:43:08.484] Whatever it was. [00:43:08.484 – 00:43:10.704] Might have said I was gaining weight. [00:43:10.704 – 00:43:12.344] I don't care what it was. [00:43:12.344 – 00:43:13.304] Didn't make any difference. [00:43:13.304 – 00:43:15.784] It was just totally useless information. [00:43:15.784 – 00:43:18.464] And so got no interest. [00:43:18.464 – 00:43:22.644] I've seen real damage done, and you probably have, too.

[00:43:22.644 – 00:43:25.914] I mean, real danger, da- dangerous stuff done. [00:43:25.914 – 00:43:29.984] And this is not a place where that, where we ought to do that, I don't believe. [00:43:29.984 – 00:43:35.344] Negative thinking. [00:43:35.344 – 00:43:36.974] It's hard not to do. [00:43:37.169 – 00:43:47.289] But, uh, but negative thinking, if you, you talk about what's gonna pull down the morale, what's gonna pull down emotional sobriety, what's gonna pull down [00:43:47.289 – 00:43:49.629] my zest for what I do in this program. [00:43:49.629 – 00:43:54.449] And negative thinking is, is a, is a, is a, is a big downer.

[00:43:54.449 – 00:43:59.129] They don't do it right. [00:43:59.129 – 00:44:03.209] Right. [00:44:03.209 – 00:44:07.849] Now, I know that you guys didn't observe anything when you came over from Scotland about how we do our meetings. [00:44:07.849 – 00:44:12.829] But if we'd have let you, you'd have probably said, "Now, here's how we do it in Dundee." You know? [00:44:12.829 – 00:44:23.739] God, I think probably the most unpopular thing you can offer in any town that you move into is [00:44:23.739 – 00:44:25.569] how we did it where I came from. [00:44:25.569 – 00:44:30.769] No market for that whatsoever, I, that I've ever found.

[00:44:30.769 – 00:44:33.209] They, they don't do it right. [00:44:33.209 – 00:44:38.109] Well, I mean, God knows a thousand war stories about that. [00:44:38.109 – 00:44:40.149] I, I tell you one thing that I've just… [00:44:40.149 – 00:44:42.329] One, the b- bottom line on that. [00:44:42.329 – 00:44:43.709] I'll tell you one thing I've learned. [00:44:43.709 – 00:44:51.289] We are the most difficult people on Earth to deal with as far as change is concerned. [00:44:51.289 – 00:44:52.219] Yeah. [00:44:52.219 – 00:44:54.849] We don't even like change when it's our idea. [00:44:54.849 – 00:45:02.009] And, and, and you let somebody come in and try to say, "Now, here's what we're gonna do," forget it.

[00:45:02.009 – 00:45:03.109] Forget it. [00:45:03.109 – 00:45:11.709] I joined a group one time, and I, I didn't, I didn't utter the m- the mission, but my mission was to make an AA group out of that. [00:45:11.709 – 00:45:14.709] Five years later, I left in total defeat. [00:45:14.709 – 00:45:14.949] I… [00:45:14.949 – 00:45:16.429] Jesus. [00:45:16.429 – 00:45:22.409] These guys, if people develop what fits them, not me, you know. [00:45:22.409 – 00:45:27.009] And so anyway, a lot of grief in a little, little thing like that. [00:45:27.009 – 00:45:32.409] Uh, self-pity. [00:45:32.409 – 00:45:35.629] Talk about eating your lunch. [00:45:35.629 – 00:45:35.929] Yeah. [00:45:35.929 – 00:45:37.329] Yeah. [00:45:37.329 – 00:45:38.409] Self-pity. [00:45:38.409 – 00:45:40.579] Yeah. [00:45:40.579 – 00:45:45.649] Don't even need to say a thing 'cause that, that absolutely, poor old me.

[00:45:45.649 – 00:45:46.309] Poor old me. [00:45:46.309 – 00:45:46.828] Yeah. [00:45:46.828 – 00:45:53.369] Depending on people versus a higher power. [00:45:53.369 – 00:45:55.469] Sort of like the thing I started out with, expectation. [00:45:55.469 – 00:45:58.849] Depending on people, uh, rather than a higher power. [00:45:58.849 – 00:46:05.249] It's like what I said about that flock of people I was sponsoring in that city who all got drunk when I left. [00:46:05.249 – 00:46:09.509] That's depending on people, you know, rather than a higher power. [00:46:09.509 – 00:46:15.149] And, uh, my job is to sort of help people get that perspective if I can.

[00:46:15.149 – 00:46:21.249] Erratic or no step work is… [00:46:21.249 – 00:46:29.769] It, it, it, it, oh, it, it goes without saying, but erratic is, is, uh, about as bad as none. [00:46:29.769 – 00:46:32.398] I, I, I'll give you one example of that. [00:46:32.398 – 00:46:36.169] A few years back, we were talking about, some of this before the meeting. [00:46:36.169 – 00:46:40.929] A few years back, I, I got really sick of, uh… [00:46:40.929 – 00:46:45.369] We're gonna have to take a break. [00:46:45.369 – 00:46:48.349] I'm the world's worst break person. [00:46:48.349 – 00:46:53.469] I'll finish this, and then we'll take that, uh, that eight, eight to 10 minutes.

[00:46:53.469 – 00:47:00.189] Well, and I, I, I just, just finished this thing. [00:47:00.189 – 00:47:06.909] A few year, few years back, I really got, s- like many of you probably have, I really got sick of the revolving door of AA. [00:47:06.909 – 00:47:07.769] That's right. [00:47:07.769 – 00:47:12.669] And, uh, and, and it looked to me like we had floods of people coming in and more going out. [00:47:12.669 – 00:47:21.989] And, and, and I got so sick of that, so sick about that, that I was really looking for something that might be a better deal, you know.

[00:47:21.989 – 00:47:25.269] And I, and over the years, I mean, I've done all kind of stuff with steps. [00:47:25.269 – 00:47:28.049] I've done it Marine Corps style, of taking folks through. [00:47:28.049 – 00:47:29.789] You know, bang, bang, bang. [00:47:29.789 – 00:47:30.759] You know, all that kind of stuff. [00:47:30.759 – 00:47:33.749] But j- and everything worked a little bit. [00:47:33.749 – 00:47:38.569] I've never seen anything that didn't work for somebody, and nothing that would work for everybody. [00:47:38.569 – 00:47:41.089] But I, but I, I found a thing. [00:47:41.089 – 00:47:46.669] A buddy of mine was doing something, and, and he showed me what it was, and it sort of made sense.

[00:47:46.669 – 00:47:47.409] It rung a bell. [00:47:47.409 – 00:47:54.109] And, and what he was talking about was, was taking people through the book, you know, taking people through the program using the book. [00:47:54.109 – 00:48:04.469] And, uh, really what rung a bell with me was rather than reading the book and trying to translate it into my understanding, the [00:48:04.469 – 00:48:12.209] operative term, the operative terms was always how do you relate or how do you identify? [00:48:12.209 – 00:48:15.129] Never what do you think. [00:48:15.129 – 00:48:16.009] Mm-hmm. [00:48:16.009 – 00:48:16.149] Right. [00:48:16.149 – 00:48:16.729] Never. [00:48:16.729 – 00:48:24.389] Because the whole purpose was to make the story of recovery that's laid out in the book my story of recovery.

[00:48:24.389 – 00:48:27.669] Well, that made sense to me immediately. [00:48:27.669 – 00:48:31.009] I'd never been to a, to a thing like that. [00:48:31.009 – 00:48:38.129] But I, I said, "I'm gonna try that." So I, I told some, uh, some, some folks I sponsor, I s- d-d… [00:48:38.129 – 00:48:39.389] I said, "We'll try this thing here. [00:48:39.389 – 00:48:47.769] If anybody wants to get in on it, then bring anybody you want to." And, uh, that, I mean, that sort of thing, that's a special purpose kind of a deal. [00:48:47.769 – 00:48:51.089] So we did it not as part of a group, just a g- bunch of people who wanted to do the book.

[00:48:51.089 – 00:48:53.389] And I didn't have a clue what I was doing. [00:48:53.389 – 00:49:00.829] But we went through it, and, uh, sure, if you're in a hurry, you don't want to do it because it takes a long time. [00:49:00.829 – 00:49:02.489] It took a long time. [00:49:02.489 – 00:49:03.129] We… [00:49:03.129 – 00:49:05.109] Close to a year on that first one, I think. [00:49:05.109 – 00:49:06.089] That's right. [00:49:06.089 – 00:49:08.629] And, uh, an, an interesting thing happened. [00:49:08.629 – 00:49:12.949] I mentioned a little earlier about half measures not doing much. [00:49:12.949 – 00:49:23.169] What I saw was that of people who went through that entire experience, and I mean the entire

[00:49:23.169 – 00:49:27.449] experience, even though it's been several years ago, none of them have drunk. [00:49:27.449 – 00:49:29.449] None of them has dr- have drunk. [00:49:29.449 – 00:49:35.009] Now, I'm not a magic bullet type of guy, but I really believe what… [00:49:35.009 – 00:49:45.013] Judge Kent said it last night, that if, if I am genuinely Doing this, this work, doing these principles in my life, practicing [00:49:45.013 – 00:49:48.493] what that says, there's no room for failure. [00:49:48.493 – 00:49:50.633] There's no room for it. [00:49:50.633 – 00:49:58.813] And so that erratic kind of, of work, what we saw was that if…

[00:49:58.813 – 00:50:01.813] And I'm talking about, uh, missing at all. [00:50:01.813 – 00:50:09.613] When people miss sessions, it's just like that little thing at the start, start of chapter five, half measures avail us nothing. [00:50:09.613 – 00:50:10.703] Mm. [00:50:10.703 – 00:50:12.393] Not a little bit, nothing. [00:50:12.393 – 00:50:14.013] That's what we saw. [00:50:14.013 – 00:50:20.193] We had all success, up to this day, of, of the people who made the entire deal. [00:50:20.193 – 00:50:23.273] We had one suicide of somebody who didn't. [00:50:23.273 – 00:50:27.173] And, and so it's, it's a pretty serious kind of a thing. [00:50:27.173 – 00:50:31.613] And, and so erratic stuff is, is really shaky.

[00:50:31.613 – 00:50:37.033] Uh, you know, back when I went to program, uh, we didn't do stuff like that back then. [00:50:37.033 – 00:50:38.913] I did it in a, in an erratic way. [00:50:38.913 – 00:50:39.833] That's the only way I knew. [00:50:39.833 – 00:50:43.633] And so between 12 step calls, I'm banging away on doing this stuff. [00:50:43.633 – 00:50:45.453] But the, um… [00:50:45.453 – 00:50:49.733] But it sure helps when you could go through there and, and not get into an erratic pattern. [00:50:49.733 – 00:50:55.153] Um, spend a little bit more time on this in a minute too, but that's, that's nothing new.

[00:50:55.153 – 00:50:56.953] I always do stuff like that. [00:50:56.953 – 00:50:57.793] Good. [00:50:57.793 – 00:51:04.673] Let's, let's go ahead and take a, take a, you know, 10, 15 minute break like that, and then we'll come back, wrap up for lunch. [00:51:04.673 – 00:51:08.793] Hear the news about the ladies restroom. [00:51:08.793 – 00:51:09.083] I- Yes. [00:51:09.083 – 00:51:12.933] When one door closes, another opens, it sounds like. [00:51:12.933 – 00:51:14.833] Well, it's, uh… [00:51:14.833 – 00:51:17.553] Sorry. [00:51:17.553 – 00:51:21.353] And I tell you, if you want to start having trouble, mess with the women's restroom. [00:51:21.353 – 00:51:22.993] You'll have big time trouble. [00:51:22.993 – 00:51:24.313] Ah. [00:51:24.313 – 00:51:34.333] So I hope you had a good, good relaxing break, and we'll, uh, we'll, we'll break again for lunch at, uh, 12:15, I believe we're

[00:51:34.333 – 00:51:34.503] gonna… [00:51:34.503 – 00:51:35.403] 12:15. [00:51:35.403 – 00:51:36.253] All right. [00:51:36.253 – 00:51:38.823] Then we'll, we will hammer out the burgers then. [00:51:38.823 – 00:51:45.033] Um, a few, just two or three things on that, and then I wanna, wanna move on into the, the other thing. [00:51:45.033 – 00:51:55.313] Um, I'll just kinda hit these right quick, like the, the things that sort of undermine and take away [00:51:55.313 – 00:51:59.113] and, and interfere with good, sound emotional sobriety. [00:51:59.113 – 00:52:00.273] Worry. [00:52:00.273 – 00:52:01.393] Yeah, worry. [00:52:01.393 – 00:52:06.413] It's a human quality, but it's a, it is a absolute killer. [00:52:06.413 – 00:52:09.033] Always helps me to remember little…

[00:52:09.033 – 00:52:11.033] You know how you remember the little cliches? [00:52:11.033 – 00:52:12.053] Mm-hmm. [00:52:12.053 – 00:52:17.173] That 98% about, of the things that I worry about most never happen. [00:52:17.173 – 00:52:26.013] So I just try to be about as worry-free as I can get, um, 'cause it will eat you alive. [00:52:26.013 – 00:52:32.133] It, the, lack of focus. [00:52:32.133 – 00:52:33.313] Oh, lack of focus. [00:52:33.313 – 00:52:33.823] Ooh. [00:52:33.823 – 00:52:34.053] Yeah. [00:52:34.053 – 00:52:37.873] That's what I was having problem here, is I didn't have enough focus to see. [00:52:37.873 – 00:52:37.993] I… [00:52:37.993 – 00:52:39.213] Yeah. [00:52:39.213 – 00:52:42.133] Yeah, lack of focus of just not keeping my eye on the ball.

[00:52:42.133 – 00:52:45.413] And, uh, you know, when I, uh… [00:52:45.413 – 00:52:52.033] Well, anyway, just, just, just, just being focused, keeping, keeping a, paying attention. [00:52:52.033 – 00:52:59.513] Just, the lady was just explaining to me about a little bit of a hearing impaired problem, explaining why she was looking at me so intently. [00:52:59.513 – 00:53:02.933] And I told her, I thought it was just because she thought I was just drop dead handsome. [00:53:02.933 – 00:53:07.593] And she, she quickly assured me that was not the case. [00:53:07.593 – 00:53:12.273] But that's the way she focuses to hear better.

[00:53:12.273 – 00:53:14.953] And, uh, so I appreciate you telling me that. [00:53:14.953 – 00:53:16.612] I wish it had been the other, though. [00:53:16.612 – 00:53:22.373] Uh, discouragement. [00:53:22.373 – 00:53:25.533] Uh, it's, uh… [00:53:25.533 – 00:53:36.253] You know, one, one thing about our deal, it is important to focus on, on the good news because, uh, in, in, in all, in all reality, we deal with a tremendous [00:53:36.253 – 00:53:37.813] amount of bad news. [00:53:37.813 – 00:53:48.033] Uh, we, we, we, we deal with an awful lot of investment of our hopes for people, and see them go down, and, and, and, and that's always a kind of a discouraging

[00:53:48.033 – 00:53:48.233] thing. [00:53:48.233 – 00:53:58.612] So I think it's awfully important for me to keep a positive look on, uh, the potential, that everybody who walks into this, these, these doors [00:53:58.613 – 00:54:02.773] has the same potential that I do for finding a brand new life. [00:54:02.773 – 00:54:12.833] And so that's why I always kind of, kind of ta- like, like to look at it that way, and, uh, not get caught up in the, uh, the, uh, [00:54:12.833 – 00:54:14.913] the, the, the all too sad statistics. [00:54:14.913 – 00:54:18.853] Change of mind.

[00:54:18.853 – 00:54:20.193] Simple little thing. [00:54:20.193 – 00:54:22.533] Change of mind. [00:54:22.533 – 00:54:27.973] The, what we have here is such a fragile thing. [00:54:27.973 – 00:54:31.203] Uh, you know, when we're on, we, we get about- [00:54:31.440 – 00:54:32.400] Tough as they come. [00:54:32.400 – 00:54:35.260] But boy, is it ever fragile. [00:54:35.260 – 00:54:45.320] Because all I've gotta do is just change my mind the least little bit about the value, about the criticality of things I do, and man, [00:54:45.320 – 00:54:48.480] I can put it in the dump quickly, very quickly. [00:54:48.480 – 00:54:57.000] All I've gotta do is just change that mind, and what have, what have been many, many years building up can be as if it never happened very quickly.

[00:54:57.000 – 00:54:58.240] All I have to do is just let go. [00:54:58.240 – 00:55:00.720] Don't have to have any traumatic event. [00:55:00.720 – 00:55:04.820] It'll just automatically happen if I just shift my thinking just, just enough to do so. [00:55:04.820 – 00:55:08.800] Um, fear. [00:55:08.800 – 00:55:10.120] Fear. [00:55:10.120 – 00:55:15.300] God, that's huge. [00:55:15.300 – 00:55:25.360] It's always fascinating to me with working with people on inventory, with that true macho quality that we always think anger is gonna [00:55:25.360 – 00:55:27.540] be the biggest list of all. [00:55:27.540 – 00:55:30.940] It's always fear, the biggest thing. [00:55:30.940 – 00:55:37.579] That if, if, if I had to rename Alcoholics Anonymous, which is not gonna happen, I think it would be Self-Centered Fear.

[00:55:37.579 – 00:55:42.720] And, uh, very, very pervasive thing. [00:55:42.720 – 00:55:44.820] Stinking thinking. [00:55:44.820 – 00:55:47.380] You, you don't hear this term much anymore. [00:55:47.380 – 00:55:49.000] Stinking thinking. [00:55:49.000 – 00:55:53.220] And, and, and, and it can ruin the very best day. [00:55:53.220 – 00:55:55.260] It's just stinking thinking. [00:55:55.260 – 00:55:58.140] Dry drunk, you know, they, they, they would call it. [00:55:58.140 – 00:56:08.180] One of the little old handy cliches that I always like to kind of keep in mind, that when stinking thinking is even [00:56:08.180 – 00:56:13.320] approaching as, uh, that there's nothing so bad that a drink won't make it worse.

[00:56:13.320 – 00:56:14.170] Amen. [00:56:14.170 – 00:56:15.610] And a simple little old thing like that. [00:56:15.610 – 00:56:19.320] Sometimes I don't need profound concepts. [00:56:19.320 – 00:56:29.360] I need something that cuts right to the chase and says, "Here's what it's about." And, uh, last one, and, and I think, and we, we may visit this a little bit more [00:56:29.360 – 00:56:32.380] too, but money, property, and prestige. [00:56:32.380 – 00:56:42.520] I list them all together, and, and, and you're familiar with the language in the Sixth Tradition, that, uh, you know, we often think of that in terms of organizational

[00:56:42.520 – 00:56:42.980] thinking. [00:56:42.980 – 00:56:53.080] But, but I, I think it's awfully important, uh, in, in terms of the sh- the stability and the steadiness and the wellness of sobriety i- is that [00:56:53.080 – 00:56:57.860] I not get caught up in, uh, in money, property, and prestige. [00:56:57.860 – 00:57:01.320] Uh, I'm a very fortunate guy in, in, uh… [00:57:01.320 – 00:57:03.360] Somebody stole my water. [00:57:03.360 – 00:57:04.190] Oh, here it is. [00:57:04.190 – 00:57:06.279] I got it. [00:57:06.279 – 00:57:08.860] I'm always a little paranoid around alcoholics. [00:57:08.860 – 00:57:13.640] Yeah. [00:57:13.640 – 00:57:16.380] That's what I want. [00:57:16.380 – 00:57:26.540] My first thought's always, "Somebody stole it." And that, uh, that, I have been, I've been, I was really

[00:57:26.540 – 00:57:36.620] blessed that, uh, it's a strange blessing, but I haven't had a money problem since the day I walked into Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:57:36.620 – 00:57:40.520] I've been broke, but I've never had a money problem. [00:57:40.520 – 00:57:42.660] I've had a no money problem a few times. [00:57:42.660 – 00:57:44.660] But that's a big difference. [00:57:44.660 – 00:57:48.380] I've, I've never had a money problem, and it's a strange blessing. [00:57:48.380 – 00:57:55.970] But that there was a period of my life when I had no income that was legal, and, uh- … [00:57:55.970 – 00:58:00.220] the, and very little that was illegal, 'cause I was so drunk I couldn't even steal.

[00:58:00.220 – 00:58:01.820] That… [00:58:01.820 – 00:58:11.940] But, but being in that condition is an awfully good con- conditioner to how [00:58:11.940 – 00:58:12.800] to deal with nothing. [00:58:12.800 – 00:58:13.520] That's right. [00:58:13.520 – 00:58:14.620] That you really… [00:58:14.620 – 00:58:19.080] What I learned is that I just really don't have to have stuff. [00:58:19.080 – 00:58:21.210] It's not all that important. [00:58:21.210 – 00:58:30.560] And, uh, so I don't recommend that as a, as a financial management course, but it, but it does an awful lot. [00:58:30.560 – 00:58:39.560] It, it's, uh, uh, I'm just absolutely a- amazed that, that I've been broke a lot of times, but no money problems.

[00:58:39.560 – 00:58:44.520] Because money can absolutely consume, can't it? [00:58:44.520 – 00:58:45.730] Yeah. [00:58:45.730 – 00:58:51.899] Yeah, if you're morbidly concerned about too little, or probably even more dangerously, too much. [00:58:51.899 – 00:58:53.000] Right. [00:58:53.000 – 00:58:53.520] Too much. [00:58:53.520 – 00:58:59.660] When I've got enough that it starts to own me, and my money becomes who I am. [00:58:59.660 – 00:59:06.880] Or property, you know, that I've, I've gotta have the swankiest, the newest, the biggest, you know, whatever. [00:59:06.880 – 00:59:08.540] Prestige. [00:59:08.540 – 00:59:09.880] You know, the… [00:59:09.880 – 00:59:20.140] Some people, every once in a while somebody will, will talk about the danger, like if you do a lot of speaking around the country, a lot of people,

[00:59:20.140 – 00:59:28.080] I've had a lot of people say, "Do- doesn't that give you an ego problem or something, doing that so much?" And, uh, I swear to God, that's a for… [00:59:28.080 – 00:59:29.920] How, how could you… [00:59:29.920 – 00:59:34.760] It's always been for me, how would you become a b- big shot in an anonymous organization? [00:59:34.760 – 00:59:40.240] It's just, just a contradiction in terms, you know, that, uh… [00:59:40.240 – 00:59:46.300] But that, that thing of prestige, that who I am is important. [00:59:46.300 – 00:59:47.220] You know? [00:59:47.220 – 00:59:51.500] The, I, I had a, a, a funny thing.

[00:59:51.500 – 01:00:01.520] It's, I had a f- we were trying to set up a, what is some stuff you have to do with the federal government for, having to do with a conference to set up for some kind [01:00:01.520 – 01:00:03.220] of a tax-free or something. [01:00:03.220 – 01:00:07.260] Something, it's something, something, anyway, some federal hopscotch. [01:00:07.260 – 01:00:10.480] So since I didn't know much about it, they asked me to handle it. [01:00:10.480 – 01:00:20.920] And so I, uh, started doing it, and they, the correspondence came to, now I'm about as anonymous as, as Hurricane…

[01:00:20.920 – 01:00:31.360] But the mail was coming to my house, full name, Alcoholics Anonymous, my address. [01:00:31.360 – 01:00:41.088] Well, I mean, I, I'm not overly concerned about that, except that it just happens to violate totally the whole principle of anonymity. [01:00:41.088 – 01:00:51.268] And so I said, "Ah, shoot, uh, I'm gonna call." So I called up and so getting into a federal bureaucracy and getting into [01:00:51.268 – 01:00:53.828] a meaningful conversation is a challenge. [01:00:53.828 – 01:01:04.228] And so I finally got a lady on the phone, and I told her, I, I, I said, "I, all I wanna do is just get the address changed because what, what we got down there is not appropriate." And

[01:01:04.228 – 01:01:10.628] she, she looked at it, she said, "Well, what's wrong with it?" I said, "Well, that anonymous means what it says. [01:01:10.628 – 01:01:20.268] You know, that, that means don't tell nobody, you know?" And she said, "Why?" So I, I started, I started explaining. [01:01:20.268 – 01:01:30.348] And, and, uh, and she said, uh, kind of a stock thing you hear, she says, "Well, don't you think there'd be a good side to that, that would, people would know that their neighbor was [01:01:30.348 – 01:01:40.408] in, uh, in, in Alcoholics Anonymous, that it might attract more people to the program?" And I said, "Did you ever think of how many it might drive away?" And she said, "Oh,

[01:01:40.408 – 01:01:51.508] no, you're not that kind of guy." But, but, but see, prestige, and I've, I have worked with people who went through this phase of [01:01:51.508 – 01:02:00.448] believing that if they were less careful with their, their identity, that it would help more people come to Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:02:00.448 – 01:02:10.968] It happens a lot of times with, like, celebrities where, where they really feel that if they become public, that it will encourage [01:02:10.968 – 01:02:12.148] others to come. [01:02:12.148 – 01:02:20.708] And, uh, and so, you know, when you get caught up in that kind of prestige thinking, that dangerous thing, you know?

[01:02:20.708 – 01:02:25.308] That, that my emotional sobriety is gonna be a, a little shaky at best. [01:02:25.308 – 01:02:33.908] Well, what we've just done is, is, is, is, is to taken a look at just 27 things. [01:02:33.908 – 01:02:37.828] You could probably come up with another list of 27 or 47. [01:02:37.828 – 01:02:45.728] But they're just things that come to me when I think about things that impact negatively on my recovery. [01:02:45.728 – 01:02:49.188] You know, th, that, that, that emotional recovery. [01:02:49.188 – 01:03:00.188] And, um, and very frankly, I, I think that good sound recovery comes in putting these principles to work.

[01:03:00.188 – 01:03:09.928] Um, I have a, um, just sort of a personal commitment that I work on no problems. [01:03:09.928 – 01:03:11.907] Uh, I really don't. [01:03:11.907 – 01:03:21.968] In terms of, of my own, my own personal comfort, my own level of sobriety and, and comfort with my sobriety, I, I absolutely work on no problems, [01:03:21.968 – 01:03:25.408] and I haven't for a long, long time. [01:03:25.408 – 01:03:35.628] Because what I find literally, and it's almost a cliche to say this, but I literally mean this, I, I find that when I focus on problems

[01:03:35.628 – 01:03:38.108] and try to work on them, they become worse. [01:03:38.108 – 01:03:39.988] They truly become worse. [01:03:39.988 – 01:03:44.668] What I do is stir them up and, and agitate them, and make them worse. [01:03:44.668 – 01:03:51.888] So I'm not working on relationships, job, money, citizenship, nothing. [01:03:51.888 – 01:03:54.128] I, I'm not, I'm not working on a single problem. [01:03:54.128 – 01:03:59.108] What I do is practice these principles as a way of life. [01:03:59.108 – 01:04:04.038] Kent said it well last night in, in that little preface to the, to the, to the 12 and 12.

[01:04:04.038 – 01:04:14.128] It, it, it says in, in, in, in a loose, loose presentation of it, that our steps [01:04:14.128 – 01:04:18.788] are a s- are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature. [01:04:18.788 – 01:04:21.968] Tells us what they are. [01:04:21.968 – 01:04:23.128] You know, what our tools are. [01:04:23.128 – 01:04:25.088] They're a group of spiritual principles. [01:04:25.088 – 01:04:35.168] And then I think very, very important wording, which if practiced as a way of life, not worked or [01:04:35.168 – 01:04:44.988] studied or read or written, if practiced as a way of life, is some of the stuff we were talking about.

[01:04:44.988 – 01:04:48.068] If these principles don't show up in my life, where are the principles? [01:04:48.068 – 01:04:50.168] If practiced as a way of life. [01:04:50.168 – 01:05:00.788] Will do, uh, you, no number on it, it said, but w- what'll happen if I do that, it will expel [01:05:00.788 – 01:05:03.108] my obsession to drink. [01:05:03.108 – 01:05:05.428] It'll push it away. [01:05:05.428 – 01:05:06.708] It'll push it away. [01:05:06.708 – 01:05:08.628] It'll absolutely do that. [01:05:08.628 – 01:05:15.888] It will expel that obsession to drink and enable the sufferer, me, to become happily and usefully whole. [01:05:15.888 – 01:05:25.548] And that is a huge statement, and that is a very accurate statement, that if I practice-

[01:05:25.757 – 01:05:26.997] These principles a way of life. [01:05:26.997 – 01:05:29.457] All of those things have happened for me. [01:05:29.457 – 01:05:39.497] I, I haven't had an obsession to drink for, oh, gosh, something like 43 years si- since the last [01:05:39.497 – 01:05:41.057] time I had an obsession to drink. [01:05:41.057 – 01:05:48.777] Now, I'm not, I'm not, uh, cocky enough to think that those things are history. [01:05:48.777 – 01:05:57.257] They've been history for a long time, but I would not be surprised if I had one in Lake Milton, Ohio. [01:05:57.257 – 01:06:01.157] But I'll guarantee you I would not be unprepared either.

[01:06:01.157 – 01:06:02.116] Yeah. [01:06:02.116 – 01:06:08.937] Yeah, 'cause what I've found is that the obsession is removed, but not too far . [01:06:08.937 – 01:06:11.017] Old Ron's sitting on mine right now. [01:06:11.017 – 01:06:19.437] He's just holding it for me in case, because all I have to do to get that to revisit is what? [01:06:19.437 – 01:06:22.957] Just stop the practice of these principles in my affairs. [01:06:22.957 – 01:06:30.097] And I don't have to get, have any, any sort of a, of a challenging situation or tragedy or any of that. [01:06:30.097 – 01:06:40.957] You know, all I have to do is let down on what makes me at peace, and that p- makes that obsession go into neutral, and

[01:06:40.957 – 01:06:43.717] then will enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole. [01:06:43.717 – 01:06:46.417] I w- wanna visit in, in… [01:06:46.417 – 01:06:48.217] Now, we've, we've talked about problem. [01:06:48.217 – 01:06:53.297] And so I wanna shift in, and we'll just sort of warm up with it a little bit. [01:06:53.297 – 01:06:59.477] I wanna shift into the program of recovery and, and look at how it… [01:06:59.477 – 01:07:10.287] Not, you know, like directly tied to one of those things, but those principles in all of my affairs are what produces, [01:07:10.287 – 01:07:13.357] what do you call it?

[01:07:13.357 – 01:07:14.807] Emotional sobriety. [01:07:14.807 – 01:07:19.697] So I wanna take a look at those things with you in terms of how that works. [01:07:19.697 – 01:07:29.817] I wanna particularly g- move into the area that Bill was talking about in, in that article where the real solution to this [01:07:29.817 – 01:07:39.997] stuff is not in studying it and examining it and working on it, but in getting caught up in being an active agent of, of, of service to other alcoholics. [01:07:39.997 – 01:07:44.257] So I wanna, wanna lead into that and that, and, and wind up somewhere in there.

[01:07:44.257 – 01:07:51.417] Um, so we'll just, we'll just get going with it a little bit, and I'm gonna just… [01:07:51.417 – 01:08:01.817] I, I won't run through the steps willy-nilly, but, but, but visit with them enough to, uh, sort of see that this is what my, what my solution [01:08:01.817 – 01:08:02.077] is. [01:08:02.077 – 01:08:05.617] My, my way of life is what te- makes it happen for me. [01:08:05.617 – 01:08:14.957] When I came in the program, uh, I, I truly did not believe I was alcoholic. [01:08:14.957 – 01:08:16.357] Really didn't. [01:08:16.357 – 01:08:26.557] Uh, I was 24 years old, and in 1957, 24-year-olds were not flowing off the, the, the, the, the production line

[01:08:26.557 – 01:08:27.577] very, very quickly. [01:08:27.577 – 01:08:30.357] In fact, none that I saw. [01:08:30.357 – 01:08:37.437] And, uh, I was in AA for several years before I ever met anybody my age. [01:08:37.437 – 01:08:40.597] I never went to a meeting I wasn't the youngest guy there. [01:08:40.597 – 01:08:47.597] And, uh, I got so darn tired of people patting me on the head- … [01:08:47.597 – 01:08:53.557] and, and telling me how lucky I was that to be in Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:08:53.557 – 01:09:04.077] I tell you, when you're 24 years old, it is awfully hard to convince a guy that he is so fortunate to be in something called Alcoholics Anonymous-

[01:09:04.077 – 01:09:05.357] … [01:09:05.357 – 01:09:07.277] with a lot of geriatric cases. [01:09:07.277 – 01:09:13.127] I said- And I, I remember, I remember one time a guy … [01:09:13.127 – 01:09:14.697] It was one, one fella in particular. [01:09:14.697 – 01:09:23.597] He was j- I mean, he was a really nice man, and, uh, he was as sincere as could be, and he was just oohing and aahing about, about how, how fortunate I was to be in AA. [01:09:23.597 – 01:09:26.597] And, and he, he was… [01:09:26.597 – 01:09:36.747] He said, "Do you realize that at your age, you could realistically look forward to 50 years of sobriety?"

[01:09:36.747 – 01:09:42.717] Now, he, he made that sound like you could win the lottery or something, you know? [01:09:42.717 – 01:09:47.217] And he just looked like that was the most rapturous thought known to man. [01:09:47.217 – 01:09:57.477] But while he was oohing and aahing, I was saying to myself- …"My God, what if it works?" Man, [01:09:57.477 – 01:10:00.277] man, I'm gonna get caught up in this thing and there's no escape. [01:10:00.277 – 01:10:01.477] You know, I'll be here forever. [01:10:01.477 – 01:10:07.317] And, uh, and I tell you, that did not seem like a happy thought at, at that point.

[01:10:07.317 – 01:10:07.587] I… [01:10:07.587 – 01:10:12.417] So, but, but that was a kind of an awkward period. [01:10:12.417 – 01:10:14.837] I didn't really believe that, that, that I was alcoholic. [01:10:14.837 – 01:10:22.077] I, I knew and I agreed that alcohol had caused a lot of problems in my life. [01:10:22.077 – 01:10:22.837] Now, I… [01:10:22.837 – 01:10:24.117] That was obvious. [01:10:24.117 – 01:10:34.317] And, and, uh, the, the guy that, uh, and, and I know a lot of people in this room, I think a lot of you know that I started, uh, AA in a correctional [01:10:34.317 – 01:10:34.857] institution. [01:10:34.857 – 01:10:37.737] I, I was, I was locked up in a maximum custody penitentiary.

[01:10:37.737 – 01:10:47.477] And, and, and what led me into AA was, um, a, a guy just suggested to me that, that, uh, that there was a group there, he thought it would be helpful to go. [01:10:47.477 – 01:10:50.917] And, and I didn't really, I didn't really wanna join AA. [01:10:50.917 – 01:10:51.877] I'd never heard of it. [01:10:51.877 – 01:10:53.517] I, I didn't have a clue what it was. [01:10:53.517 – 01:10:55.297] AA was not well known back then. [01:10:55.297 – 01:10:57.157] We had 125,000 members. [01:10:57.157 – 01:11:01.316] I didn't know I was gonna be number 125,001. [01:11:01.316 – 01:11:10.217] And, uh, but this guy suggested to me, and I walked into the meeting, and I could listen to what was going on.

[01:11:10.217 – 01:11:13.757] And it's a strange thing about listening to somebody tell their story. [01:11:13.757 – 01:11:17.597] When I heard that, I… [01:11:17.597 – 01:11:25.217] What it sounded to me like they were saying was that they were alcoholic because when they drank, they got in trouble. [01:11:25.217 – 01:11:30.117] Well, my God, if that's what alcoholism is, I'd had that all of my life. [01:11:30.117 – 01:11:33.237] Because I've been in trouble all of my life and never sober. [01:11:33.237 – 01:11:35.921] I never had, I never got into any trouble. [01:11:35.921 – 01:11:38.601] I never went to jail sober in my life.

[01:11:38.601 – 01:11:40.981] Never wrecked a car sober. [01:11:40.981 – 01:11:44.781] Never w- I woke up one time in a burning car, mine. [01:11:44.781 – 01:11:53.981] And, uh, policemen was trying to break in the window to get me out, and I thought he was trying to arrest me, so I'm pushing back and go… [01:11:53.981 – 01:11:58.381] Well, well, you know, I mean, there were a few little minor peccadillos like that. [01:11:58.381 – 01:12:04.861] But, but I woke up one time married to a lady I didn't even know. [01:12:04.861 – 01:12:05.961] I mean, at all.

[01:12:05.961 – 01:12:15.541] So when they talked about, you know, al- alcohol causing trouble, I said, "Well, yeah, I've had a little of that." And, and all my life. [01:12:15.541 – 01:12:21.781] But there's a big difference between acknowledgement or, or s- or pleading guilty is about what I was doing. [01:12:21.781 – 01:12:23.521] Yeah, I did that, too. [01:12:23.521 – 01:12:25.361] But that doesn't mean a lot, you know? [01:12:25.361 – 01:12:35.581] You know, what it did mean was that I had made the rite of passage, and, and I am so grateful that in our program we do not

[01:12:35.581 – 01:12:37.941] have stringent entry requirements. [01:12:37.941 – 01:12:40.521] We don't read resumes. [01:12:40.521 – 01:12:43.421] We're not overly interested in pedigree. [01:12:43.421 – 01:12:45.881] You know, what we're interested in is… [01:12:45.881 – 01:12:48.221] That's the strangest fellowship in the world. [01:12:48.221 – 01:12:52.921] It's the only place I know where the worse your history, the better your welcome. [01:12:52.921 – 01:12:59.181] You come in here real nice and foo-foo and all that kind of stuff, people look at you funny. [01:12:59.181 – 01:13:00.551] Say- … [01:13:00.551 – 01:13:04.921] "Why are you here?" You know, you come in here and say, "Well, I just killed my mother-in-law," or something like that.

[01:13:04.921 – 01:13:05.921] "Yeah, come on in, man. [01:13:05.921 – 01:13:10.201] Come on in." We're a strange bunch. [01:13:10.201 – 01:13:16.561] And, uh, and so when I listen to folk telling that stuff, I think, yeah, man, I've done some of that. [01:13:16.561 – 01:13:21.461] But that wasn't a bit more d- of, of, of admitting that I, that I was alcoholic. [01:13:21.461 – 01:13:24.121] It was just sort of saying, "Yeah, I did all that myself. [01:13:24.121 – 01:13:33.101] I'm guilty of it." Back then, alcoholism was far from being acknowledged as an illness, as it, as it, as it pretty much is today.

[01:13:33.101 – 01:13:34.621] It was anything but. [01:13:34.621 – 01:13:37.081] Alcoholism was very much a moral issue. [01:13:37.081 – 01:13:38.541] It was a moral issue with me. [01:13:38.541 – 01:13:46.241] When I first heard people talking about alcoholism being an illness in AA, I found it a fairly embarrassing concept. [01:13:46.241 – 01:13:50.181] And I thought, what on earth is an illness about getting drunk? [01:13:50.181 – 01:13:51.941] I mean, that made no sense to me. [01:13:51.941 – 01:13:52.901] It was a moral thing. [01:13:52.901 – 01:13:56.941] I, I thought the reason that I got in so much trouble is that I was just no good.

[01:13:56.941 – 01:14:02.721] I, I was just a kind of a worthless kind of guy who had no discipline or responsibility. [01:14:02.721 – 01:14:04.001] That's truly what I believed. [01:14:04.001 – 01:14:08.980] But that grudging acknowledgement was enough to keep me here, eh? [01:14:08.980 – 01:14:11.401] Now I really love the way we approach it. [01:14:11.401 – 01:14:16.961] It, it, our book says that just a willingness to believe is enough to get going. [01:14:16.961 – 01:14:18.601] Thank God for that. [01:14:18.601 – 01:14:28.361] Thank God for those entry requirements that leave the door very wide for folk coming in, and that'll narrow as time goes by.

[01:14:28.361 – 01:14:33.121] But that was tremendously important to me, and so it was enough to keep me going. [01:14:33.121 – 01:14:34.821] You know, life was unmanageable. [01:14:34.821 – 01:14:37.841] You know, a- again, just very, very primitive terms. [01:14:37.841 – 01:14:39.661] You know, I'm in a cage. [01:14:39.661 – 01:14:42.441] You know, how much more unmanageable could it get? [01:14:42.441 – 01:14:45.401] I mean, that's tantamount to proof positive. [01:14:45.401 – 01:14:50.261] You know, well, you wouldn't be in this cage if your life was in good order. [01:14:50.261 – 01:14:51.621] You know, and, and so… [01:14:51.621 – 01:14:54.981] But that was just sort of a, an acknowledgement that, but again, it steadied me there.

[01:14:54.981 – 01:15:01.761] And, and so now I knew, I, I knew I was kind of a worthless dude and, and that, that… [01:15:01.761 – 01:15:06.901] I don't know, I guess something told me that there might be b- something here for me. [01:15:06.901 – 01:15:14.681] I'll tell you one thing that was powerfully persuasive to me that, and, and remained important to me for, for, for many, many years. [01:15:14.681 – 01:15:21.351] The guy who spoke at my first meeting was a guy in a neighboring state just north of here, a guy up in Michigan.

[01:15:21.351 – 01:15:22.081] That's where I was. [01:15:22.081 – 01:15:27.841] And, uh, the man who spoke at my first meeting, uh, later became my sponsor. [01:15:27.841 – 01:15:32.541] Uh, was as different from me as any human I have ever met. [01:15:32.541 – 01:15:34.141] I mean, I've never met a guy more different. [01:15:34.141 – 01:15:39.921] But he was a guy that was imbued with the spirit of enthusiasm second to none. [01:15:39.921 – 01:15:43.541] Just like, like Kent, where, where when Kent talks, he can't contain himself. [01:15:43.541 – 01:15:46.401] You know, he just absolutely has gotta come on out.

[01:15:46.401 – 01:15:49.101] And that's the way the guy was who spoke at my first meeting. [01:15:49.101 – 01:15:53.881] And, and I know without any question that's the only thing that brought me back to my second meeting. [01:15:53.881 – 01:15:57.901] It, it wasn't just the compelling evidence of, you know, the, the, the trouble and all that. [01:15:57.901 – 01:16:05.501] What brought me back was that spirit that, that was conveyed by that guy, and so I found myself sitting back in AA. [01:16:05.501 – 01:16:08.861] And so for a g- for a little while, that's what it was.

[01:16:08.861 – 01:16:15.701] That, that, it might, that, that group at, at, at, at, at that institution in Michigan was an excellent AA group. [01:16:15.701 – 01:16:16.741] You know? [01:16:16.741 – 01:16:19.801] I'm r- I'm really sad to say it, but, but I mean, I travel a… [01:16:19.938 – 01:16:20.488] extensively. [01:16:20.488 – 01:16:30.228] But I would rate the group that I went into in a maximum custody penitentiary more solid, more effective than 90% of the groups that I visit today in this country. [01:16:30.228 – 01:16:33.588] It was a good, sound, solid group. [01:16:33.588 – 01:16:42.868] It understood the fifth tradition, did a marvelous job of introducing guys like me to this design for living that we call Alcoholics Anonymous.

[01:16:42.868 – 01:16:51.308] That was critically important for me, to get that kind of beginning in a good, solid, purposeful group, and I'll be ever grateful for that. [01:16:51.308 – 01:16:54.588] And so I started getting in, I started getting introduced a little bit. [01:16:54.588 – 01:17:00.128] I am so grateful for how we go about dealing with people like me. [01:17:00.128 – 01:17:02.728] Yeah, I was a guy that was, um… [01:17:02.728 – 01:17:06.348] I'd call myself an atheist when I got here. [01:17:06.348 – 01:17:10.008] I, I don't think I really was a true, committed atheist.

[01:17:10.008 – 01:17:15.388] I just thought that was a little more sophisticated term than confused, you know? [01:17:15.388 – 01:17:24.068] And so- Whatever i- it was, where there should have been a spiritual core, there was nothing. [01:17:24.068 – 01:17:25.268] There was nothing. [01:17:25.268 – 01:17:26.928] There was a cold… [01:17:26.928 – 01:17:30.408] If there was any feeling, it was more anger than… [01:17:30.408 – 01:17:34.948] Nothing where any sort of values could be formed or any kind of belief system. [01:17:34.948 – 01:17:35.948] Nothing like that. [01:17:35.948 – 01:17:37.988] It was just totally out of, out of the deal. [01:17:37.988 – 01:17:46.348] And so we call this a spiritual program, but, but I tell you what, it sounds awfully religious to a guy of my frame of mind.

[01:17:46.348 – 01:17:49.528] And when I walked into my first meeting, the first thing we did was pray. [01:17:49.528 – 01:17:51.708] It's the same prayer we did here today. [01:17:51.708 – 01:17:53.088] Hadn't changed a lick. [01:17:53.088 – 01:17:59.868] And, uh, while they were praying, I was saying to myself, "I knew it." "I knew it. [01:17:59.868 – 01:18:08.868] I knew there was gonna be…" And so, we call this a spiritual program, but, but I tell you what, it sounds awfully religious to a guy of my frame of mind. [01:18:08.868 – 01:18:12.128] And when I walked into my first meeting, the first thing we did was pray.

[01:18:12.128 – 01:18:14.238] It's the same prayer we did here today. [01:18:14.238 – 01:18:16.428] Hadn't changed a lick. [01:18:16.428 – 01:18:22.568] And, uh, while they were praying, I was saying to myself, "I knew it." "I knew it. [01:18:22.568 – 01:18:25.508] I knew there was gonna be a hook in this thing," and that's what it was. [01:18:25.508 – 01:18:29.188] They're gonna be doing deep dunking and conversion here any minute. [01:18:29.188 – 01:18:32.988] And, uh, and I was not ready for that. [01:18:32.988 – 01:18:34.848] I, as I was approached it. [01:18:34.848 – 01:18:38.928] Thank God for the way we approach folks like me.

[01:18:38.928 – 01:18:44.428] Thank God folks with that frame of mind are not doomed to failure. [01:18:44.428 – 01:18:49.448] Thank God for a couple of principles that aren't written, but are very much in place. [01:18:49.448 – 01:18:55.208] One is that we start where we are, not where we think we ought to be. [01:18:55.208 – 01:18:58.388] We start where we are, no matter where that is. [01:18:58.388 – 01:19:00.148] Otherwise, we're starting in the wrong place. [01:19:00.148 – 01:19:08.628] And the program is about getting well, not about getting good. [01:19:08.628 – 01:19:14.948] It was really important for me to understand that this is about getting well from a condition.

[01:19:14.948 – 01:19:17.268] I wasn't sure I had it, but I knew I had a lot of trouble. [01:19:17.268 – 01:19:19.848] And it was pretty… [01:19:19.848 – 01:19:26.988] I mean, they could talk about spiritual all they wanted to, but it was pretty easy for me to see that this seemed to be a pretty religiously fla- flavored deal. [01:19:26.988 – 01:19:28.788] So I was antsy in this thing. [01:19:28.788 – 01:19:34.148] But listen to the way it deals with a guy like me, and you've heard it a million times. [01:19:34.148 – 01:19:35.548] Well, a thousand anyway.

[01:19:35.548 – 01:19:39.248] We came to believe. [01:19:39.248 – 01:19:49.788] Came to believe implies, if not directly says, it, uh, uh, that there's no timeframe. [01:19:49.788 – 01:19:51.908] There's no ultimatum. [01:19:51.908 – 01:19:55.128] There's no immediate action required. [01:19:55.128 – 01:19:57.128] It's a gradual process. [01:19:57.128 – 01:20:00.268] We come to believe as we're able to come to believe. [01:20:00.268 – 01:20:01.388] And I had no belief. [01:20:01.388 – 01:20:02.348] I mean, none. [01:20:02.348 – 01:20:10.908] As a little boy, I had gotten, I had gotten, uh, uh, pretty turned off for that whole matter of religion. [01:20:10.908 – 01:20:16.808] As a little kid, before I started school, I started to realize that there was a lot of that I didn't believe.

[01:20:16.808 – 01:20:18.348] I mean, as a little boy. [01:20:18.348 – 01:20:24.948] Now, that is a very heavy piece of guilt to carry around when you're a child and can barely pronounce stuff. [01:20:24.948 – 01:20:27.427] But that was, that was true so. [01:20:27.427 – 01:20:33.708] And, and I promised myself if I ever got big enough to resist the forces that drug me there, I wouldn't be going back. [01:20:33.708 – 01:20:35.388] And I kept that vow. [01:20:35.388 – 01:20:36.728] That was one promise I kept. [01:20:36.728 – 01:20:41.228] And I didn't go back to anything called organized religion till I was sober 11 years.

[01:20:41.228 – 01:20:45.348] So I was, uh, uh, bit pretty deeply. [01:20:45.348 – 01:20:48.148] And, and so come to believe what? [01:20:48.148 – 01:20:55.248] That a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. [01:20:55.248 – 01:20:56.988] Unnamed. [01:20:56.988 – 01:21:02.908] You know, what it does is gives me the complete freedom to believe as I'm able to believe. [01:21:02.908 – 01:21:08.948] I just better hope it's got enough power to save my life, 'cause that's what it's about. [01:21:08.948 – 01:21:13.508] Great freedom and great responsibility to believe. [01:21:13.508 – 01:21:23.708] The first power I ever believed in in my life ever was the power that I sensed over time in

[01:21:23.708 – 01:21:28.088] that group of 300 guys in an AA group in a maximum custody penitentiary. [01:21:28.088 – 01:21:32.288] And I'm not talking about the collective power of the guys. [01:21:32.288 – 01:21:42.328] I'm talking about a power that was in that room, apparent to me, that was obviously better than any, bigger than any of [01:21:42.328 – 01:21:43.568] us or all of us. [01:21:43.568 – 01:21:49.748] There was some overriding power that affected people in ways that were hard to contradict. [01:21:49.748 – 01:21:59.988] I saw men who, by their own description, had committed acts of depravity and, and, and, and, and

[01:21:59.988 – 01:22:04.008] cruelty that defied imagination. [01:22:04.008 – 01:22:14.628] And had seen those same men become agents of change and deal with people, excuse [01:22:14.628 – 01:22:19.888] me, with kindness and sensitivity that was not a human thing. [01:22:19.888 – 01:22:23.938] And so that was the first place where any belief started to form. [01:22:23.938 – 01:22:28.448] I couldn't describe that power, didn't need to. [01:22:28.448 – 01:22:30.488] I just needed to believe it. [01:22:30.488 – 01:22:36.408] Yeah, I, I really like one thing about that step in particular. [01:22:36.408 – 01:22:37.448] It's the word that. [01:22:37.448 – 01:22:39.248] It's the word that. [01:22:39.248 – 01:22:47.648] Many times we, we read this step as, or talk about it as if it said we came to believe in a power gr- Not so.

[01:22:47.648 – 01:22:49.688] And I think there's a world of difference. [01:22:49.688 – 01:22:51.568] It's more than just semantics, I believe. [01:22:51.568 – 01:22:54.808] It, believing in is sort of a concept thing. [01:22:54.808 – 01:22:58.648] It's, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a feeling, a conviction that I have. [01:22:58.648 – 01:23:02.478] Believing that is an action. [01:23:02.478 – 01:23:04.888] It focuses the power. [01:23:04.888 – 01:23:11.968] Not some abstract belief that I, that I'm in congruent with, but it focuses that power on what? [01:23:11.968 – 01:23:13.548] On saving this guy's life. [01:23:13.548 – 01:23:16.668] And that was the first power that I ever really believed in.

[01:23:16.668 – 01:23:20.148] That's the first power I ever prayed to in my entire life. [01:23:20.148 – 01:23:23.108] And I'll let you in on a little secret. [01:23:23.108 – 01:23:33.398] I've been studying the spiritual life for 49 years now, and my, and my belief system has not been dramatically [01:23:33.398 – 01:23:34.048] changed. [01:23:34.048 – 01:23:38.688] It's still fundamental, that I'm a deeply spiritual guy. [01:23:38.688 – 01:23:40.868] Now, I'm not a ritualistic type of guy. [01:23:40.868 – 01:23:49.658] I belong to a church, and, uh, I'm not sure the folks at the church know it, but- … [01:23:49.658 – 01:23:53.208] yeah, I, I'm what the old man calls a buzzard member.

[01:23:53.208 – 01:23:59.168] That that I go when they serve food or somebody dies. [01:23:59.168 – 01:24:08.868] And and, yeah, I, I'm a, I'm a Methodist and I… [01:24:08.868 – 01:24:10.768] That's, that's not a confession. [01:24:10.768 – 01:24:12.418] I was just- … [01:24:12.418 – 01:24:13.748] that's what, that's what I am. [01:24:13.748 – 01:24:17.228] And, uh, we change ministers a lot. [01:24:17.228 – 01:24:19.908] And, and, and, I mean, nothing wrong with them, they just rotate. [01:24:19.908 – 01:24:22.028] Just like we do service positions here, they do that. [01:24:22.028 – 01:24:26.528] And, uh, every time we get a new minister, they'll come to to our house.

[01:24:26.528 – 01:24:30.188] And, uh, they want to see who sends the money in. [01:24:30.188 – 01:24:37.928] And, uh, they notice somebody there, but, uh, they'll always come by, and it's very kind of, uh, it's interesting to watch it. [01:24:37.928 – 01:24:41.528] They'll be sort of uncomfortable about this house call on a stranger. [01:24:41.528 – 01:24:48.528] And they'll always say, uh, "We appreciate what you do, uh, but we don't ever see you at church." Yeah. [01:24:48.528 – 01:24:58.828] They say, "Won't you come sometime?" And I, and I always tell them that, "Well, almost every Sunday of my life I'm doing something like you do."

[01:24:58.828 – 01:24:58.838] Mm-hmm. [01:24:58.838 – 01:24:58.838] You know? [01:24:58.838 – 01:25:02.787] It, it, that's a little different deal, but I'm doing what you do. [01:25:02.787 – 01:25:05.348] And then I tell them what I do. [01:25:05.348 – 01:25:15.988] I have never had a single one to even ask a que- other than just curiosity, I've never had a single one [01:25:15.988 – 01:25:19.668] who's even intimated that, well, maybe you ought to just build in a little of this. [01:25:19.668 – 01:25:24.348] Every one of them's would listen to what I had to say and then say, "Go get them, Tiger.

[01:25:24.348 – 01:25:29.268] Go get them." And, and so, you know, that to me is sound. [01:25:29.268 – 01:25:30.848] That's a sound thing. [01:25:30.848 – 01:25:36.948] Uh, I had a, I had a, a lady I worked with one time who gave me a little plaque. [01:25:36.948 – 01:25:39.868] And, and it, I've al- always appreciated that message. [01:25:39.868 – 01:25:43.888] Well, you know the little plaques like you put on the wall, you know, about don't hurt anybody. [01:25:43.888 – 01:25:51.388] Saw one over in your country that said, "Visi- visitors are like fish. [01:25:51.388 – 01:25:58.968] They start to smell after three days." That was profound, you know?

[01:25:58.968 – 01:26:09.408] Now, now hers wasn't quite that heartfelt as that, but what hers said was that, um, said [01:26:09.408 – 01:26:11.168] in a book… [01:26:11.168 – 01:26:12.578] I guess we can all relate to this. [01:26:12.578 – 01:26:13.268] I know I can. [01:26:13.268 – 01:26:18.808] That life breaks us all at times. [01:26:18.808 – 01:26:20.008] Life breaks us all. [01:26:20.008 – 01:26:22.848] God knows if anybody knows that, it's us. [01:26:22.848 – 01:26:23.648] Breaks us all. [01:26:23.648 – 01:26:28.848] But we sometimes grow back strongest at the place we were broken. [01:26:28.848 – 01:26:30.118] Mm-hmm. [01:26:30.118 – 01:26:32.728] And boy, does that ever clarify an agenda for me. [01:26:32.728 – 01:26:35.648] That's exactly what I'm talking about with those ministers.

[01:26:35.648 – 01:26:37.188] Yeah, I don't think… [01:26:37.188 – 01:26:45.827] You know, the, the, the most power that I will ever have is to share with another alcoholic where I was broken and healed. [01:26:45.827 – 01:26:48.467] That's my message. [01:26:48.467 – 01:26:58.508] Now, I could learn a lot of stuff, and teach Sunday school, and all this kind of stuff, but my job is to be of maximum service to the folk [01:26:58.508 – 01:27:00.088] where I can be most helpful. [01:27:00.088 – 01:27:10.228] Our book says it well, that, that some, our dark histories, in so many words, bec- can become our greatest asset

[01:27:10.228 – 01:27:11.048] for helping others. [01:27:11.048 – 01:27:13.988] And so I've got a primary purpose. [01:27:15.065 – 01:27:25.125] Just like our fifth tradition says, I've got a primary purpose, and mine is to reach out to the folk to whom I'm gonna have most influence and impact. [01:27:25.125 – 01:27:28.025] And, and so that really, it sort of clarifies that thing for me. [01:27:28.025 – 01:27:35.685] And it, it gives me that kind of a, of a spiritual thing that will restore me to sanity. [01:27:35.685 – 01:27:38.725] And, and so that's what I practice today. [01:27:38.725 – 01:27:40.805] I'm, I'm not a head in the clouds type of guy.

[01:27:40.805 – 01:27:44.125] I'm a very spiritual guy, but I'm a spiritual guy with combat boots. [01:27:44.125 – 01:27:45.415] You know? [01:27:45.415 – 01:27:47.325] I like to get into the business of living. [01:27:47.325 – 01:27:48.845] Our, our book supports that well. [01:27:48.845 – 01:27:50.725] It says, "The spiritual life is not a theory. [01:27:50.725 – 01:27:51.805] We have to live it. [01:27:51.805 – 01:27:54.835] It's either everything or it's nothing." Mm-hmm. [01:27:54.835 – 01:27:54.985] Yeah. [01:27:54.985 – 01:27:58.485] And so it's gotta be a part of what I do on a, on a daily basis. [01:27:58.485 – 01:28:00.045] Thank God for that step. [01:28:00.045 – 01:28:01.585] Thank God for that step. [01:28:01.585 – 01:28:12.025] Had it been some sort of a demanding kind of a criteria-laden thing that had theology or this or, or some kind of a sect or denomination,

[01:28:12.025 – 01:28:13.525] I would have never made muster. [01:28:13.525 – 01:28:15.464] Thank God for that. [01:28:15.464 – 01:28:21.725] That then the third one is basically, well, if you believe it, old boy, put it to work. [01:28:21.725 – 01:28:22.835] You know? [01:28:22.835 – 01:28:25.545] There's no point in believing it if you're not gonna use it. [01:28:25.545 – 01:28:28.805] And the third one is just basic to, to, to make that decision. [01:28:28.805 – 01:28:33.365] Uh, uh, that, that entirely… [01:28:33.365 – 01:28:38.635] You know, made a decision to turn our will and lives over to the care of God a- as, as we understand him.

[01:28:38.635 – 01:28:39.925] And that was a simple decision. [01:28:39.925 – 01:28:42.625] Yeah, I always had great fears about that. [01:28:42.625 – 01:28:47.865] I, I thought, I thought when the first time I prayed that something just absolutely earth-shaking was gonna happen. [01:28:47.865 – 01:28:50.325] I didn't know how to pray. [01:28:50.325 – 01:29:00.405] And, uh, first prayer that I ever formally adopted was called the agnostic's prayer, and, uh, and it, it was designed to address my unbelief. [01:29:00.405 – 01:29:00.884] Yeah. [01:29:00.884 – 01:29:03.745] And, and so I, had to start where I was. [01:29:03.745 – 01:29:12.665] And, and, uh, when I first started praying to this power, I would, I'd always pray with my hand on the doorknob, you know.

[01:29:12.665 – 01:29:20.525] I'd, I, I'd, I'd be praying, but I'd, but I'd be thinking, "Now, now, don't answer right now." You know, just sorta think it over. [01:29:20.525 – 01:29:25.525] You know, don't jump on this, uh, 'cause I wanted to change but not too much, you know? [01:29:25.525 – 01:29:30.905] And, uh, so I had to sneak up on it, you know. [01:29:30.905 – 01:29:39.744] And, and, uh, so that was a delicate kind of a process for me to, to, to get that sort of spiritual life so that it was there and it was functional.

[01:29:39.744 – 01:29:44.005] Now, it was to grow in, in, in some dimensions beyond that. [01:29:44.005 – 01:29:53.945] But that was critically important for this old boy because what that gave me was a, a good, solid foundation. [01:29:53.945 – 01:29:58.365] It was a solid foundation upon which recovery could be built. [01:29:58.365 – 01:30:03.245] Uh, in, in my notion, that is, I don't think it's just my belief, but it's certainly mine. [01:30:03.245 – 01:30:12.305] Yeah, I believe those first three steps are absolutely powerful in terms of, of helping me stop drinking. [01:30:12.305 – 01:30:19.605] That I know people, many people, who I know some who've never done any steps who've died sober.

[01:30:19.605 – 01:30:27.905] I know I had a good buddy up in Raleigh, and the old man probably knew him, but, uh, yeah, one of his claim to fame was that he'd never read the big book. [01:30:27.905 – 01:30:35.545] And he'd tell you, he'd stand there, he'd greet newcomers, but saying, "You know, I never have read that book over there." He was proud of that. [01:30:35.545 – 01:30:37.204] That was his claim to fame. [01:30:37.204 – 01:30:39.305] And of course, he didn't need to tell you. [01:30:39.305 – 01:30:41.555] You could tell that he- …

[01:30:41.555 – 01:30:42.984] that he hadn't read much of anything. [01:30:42.984 – 01:30:46.485] You talk about emotional sobriety. [01:30:46.485 – 01:30:51.485] You know, he had emotional grit your teeth is what he had. [01:30:51.485 – 01:30:53.905] So, but anyway, that was his deal. [01:30:53.905 – 01:31:00.725] You know, the good thing about our program is that there is no quality control section. [01:31:00.725 – 01:31:07.965] We s- we s- we stop at what we're willing to settle for. [01:31:07.965 – 01:31:17.825] And I think maybe if, if, with the spiritual foundation I had, and I think I might have been able to stop, maybe forever.

[01:31:17.825 – 01:31:24.985] I doubt it, but, see, I'm the guy f- that's gotta decide, you know, is that enough for me? [01:31:24.985 – 01:31:30.485] Well, I, I'm not the kinda guy who could get by with just not drinking. [01:31:30.485 – 01:31:35.485] I literally get worse not drinking. [01:31:35.485 – 01:31:36.815] Mm-hmm. [01:31:36.815 – 01:31:45.365] I literally, because then I'm sensitized, I'm aware, I'm open, I'm, I'm, I'm knowledgeable of what's going on around me, and, and it's, it, it's not enough. [01:31:45.365 – 01:31:47.545] I'm an alcoholic. [01:31:47.545 – 01:31:49.405] I'm not a bad drunk. [01:31:49.405 – 01:31:51.505] I'm not a heavy drinker.

[01:31:51.505 – 01:31:53.185] I'm not a problem drinker. [01:31:53.185 – 01:31:54.705] I'm not a real alcoholic. [01:31:54.705 – 01:31:56.205] I'm an alcoholic. [01:31:56.205 – 01:32:02.305] I have an illness called alcoholism, and my belief is that it's a complex illness. [01:32:02.305 – 01:32:06.345] There's a lot more to alcoholism than drinking. [01:32:06.345 – 01:32:11.705] And therefore, a lot more to sobriety than not drinking. [01:32:11.705 – 01:32:20.315] And so I'm just not the kind that could have gotten by with just getting a good platform that would stop the bleeding and standing there. [01:32:20.315 – 01:32:21.345] I just couldn't have done that. [01:32:21.345 – 01:32:23.185] I, I could not have lived with it, I don't think.

[01:32:23.185 – 01:32:31.645] And then the, the, the, because what follows immediately is starting to get down to causes and conditions. [01:32:31.645 – 01:32:40.505] Now, I value those first three steps 'cause they are the, they are the foundation, and they're only critical in the sense that the foundation of this building is pretty important to this building. [01:32:40.505 – 01:32:43.844] If you don't have a good foundation, your building's gonna look a little weird. [01:32:43.844 – 01:32:46.865] And the same way with this program. [01:32:46.865 – 01:32:56.905] What that does is gives me a good spiritual platform so that I can start to get into the business of doing the things that are gonna ma- that, that are gonna set me free.

[01:32:56.905 – 01:32:58.225] I've done… [01:32:58.225 – 01:32:59.385] You know, there are a lot of ways of… [01:32:59.385 – 01:33:03.885] To me, a, a third step is, is, it's not a one-time kind of a thing for me. [01:33:03.885 – 01:33:06.545] It's not a one-time transforming thing. [01:33:06.545 – 01:33:09.525] It's not like the burning bush or the baptism ceremony. [01:33:09.525 – 01:33:10.685] That, not that. [01:33:10.685 – 01:33:18.509] You know, I do the third step, I, I do the third step Many, many times. [01:33:18.509 – 01:33:19.169] God knows. [01:33:19.169 – 01:33:27.749] I, I do it, uh, I do it all the time because it, that decision for me is not an all-encompassing, everlasting thing.

[01:33:27.749 – 01:33:35.729] That what I've done is found a power, and so that decision is to turn my will and life over to that power. [01:33:35.729 – 01:33:43.429] I tell you what I had to be really careful about, 'cause I was a little more flinchy than the average cat on this thing. [01:33:43.429 – 01:33:51.469] I had to be really clear that the power that I believed in was the one that I had found. [01:33:51.469 – 01:33:52.179] Mm. [01:33:52.179 – 01:33:54.289] And not the one that I ran away from. [01:33:54.289 – 01:33:56.319] Mm-hmm. [01:33:56.319 – 01:34:00.789] I hope to God that I never get restored to what I ran away from.

[01:34:00.789 – 01:34:02.489] Uh-uh. [01:34:02.489 – 01:34:03.289] No, no. [01:34:03.289 – 01:34:09.729] I've learned that everything that wears the cross ain't, you know, and there's some things that are just a little strange. [01:34:09.729 – 01:34:11.649] And I, I couldn't fathom that. [01:34:11.649 – 01:34:17.158] And, and, and, b- b- but that was e- enormously important- … [01:34:17.158 – 01:34:19.349] for me to take that step on a regular basis. [01:34:19.349 – 01:34:20.609] I do it every day. [01:34:20.609 – 01:34:21.359] Mm. [01:34:21.359 – 01:34:22.088] I do it every day. [01:34:22.088 – 01:34:24.249] Often many times a day. [01:34:24.249 – 01:34:26.249] And it's a real simple thing. [01:34:26.249 – 01:34:32.129] That prayer that we open the meeting with is, is, is, is about as simple a way as I know of doing the Third Step prayer.

[01:34:32.129 – 01:34:36.189] That's, d- that does it, when I turn my will and life over to the care of God. [01:34:36.189 – 01:34:44.449] I, I'll tell you one story w- and we'll g- break on about how, how, how useful this kind of thing is, and to me it's what it's about. [01:34:44.449 – 01:34:49.749] Sometimes it, I, I like to get it into operational, functional kind of position. [01:34:49.749 – 01:34:53.669] And, uh, I was, I don't know, on a plane one day. [01:34:53.669 – 01:35:02.589] We're gonna, we're getting ready to land, and the fella, fella sitting beside me was, you know white-knuckling?

[01:35:02.589 – 01:35:03.249] Yeah. [01:35:03.249 – 01:35:05.549] This guy was terror-stricken. [01:35:05.549 – 01:35:15.849] And, uh, so he was, he's sitting right beside me and, and I was watching his hands, and he was gripping those, those, those, those, those things there, and his, just knuckles were literally white. [01:35:15.849 – 01:35:20.689] Now, and I had to make a quick decision 'cause we're getting ready to land, and he didn't think we were gonna make it. [01:35:20.689 – 01:35:28.869] And, uh, do I give this guy the privacy that he deserves and not go barging into his life, you know?

[01:35:28.869 – 01:35:31.839] Or do I just intrude? [01:35:31.839 – 01:35:38.469] And I said, "Well, shoot, I think I'll go get him." And so, so I just, I, I just didn't have to do much. [01:35:38.469 – 01:35:45.038] I said, "Tough, ain't it?" And after that, that guy just caved. [01:35:45.038 – 01:35:47.369] Went, "Wow." He said, "Man, you don't know. [01:35:47.369 – 01:35:48.879] You don't know. [01:35:48.879 – 01:35:52.569] I'm terrified every time I take off, every time I land. [01:35:52.569 – 01:35:55.469] I fly every day, every week. [01:35:55.469 – 01:35:57.149] I sell all over the country. [01:35:57.149 – 01:36:02.489] I've gotta fly or get another job." And he said, "I don't know what in the world to do.

[01:36:02.489 – 01:36:09.189] I'm just going nuts." Now, I, I believe, you know, I told you I'd, I'd, I'd lie a little bit once in a while. [01:36:09.189 – 01:36:13.038] Uh, uh, when there's a spiritual purpose, you, I, I might… [01:36:13.038 – 01:36:15.909] So I told him a, a little bit of a lie. [01:36:15.909 – 01:36:17.629] Well, it was a total lie. [01:36:17.629 – 01:36:18.279] Uh. [01:36:18.279 – 01:36:28.068] But I said, I said, "You know, I used to have that problem." I, I, I got anxious one time for about 10 seconds. [01:36:28.068 – 01:36:30.849] And, well, I mean, that qualified.

[01:36:30.849 – 01:36:32.288] That- I had the problem. [01:36:32.288 – 01:36:33.469] I didn't tell him how long. [01:36:33.469 – 01:36:37.689] And, you know, he, well, you talk about a hungry man. [01:36:37.689 – 01:36:43.369] He said, "What did you do?" And I said, I said, "Well, I tell you. [01:36:43.369 – 01:36:53.529] I belong to a, to a program, and we got a little prayer that I just find enormously helpful." He said, [01:36:53.529 – 01:37:01.649] "What is it?" And so I did the Serenity Prayer, and he's listening to that thing like his life, well, he, his life did depend on it.

[01:37:01.649 – 01:37:05.659] So he's listening, and he said, "Wait a minute." And he got out a little old pad and a pencil. [01:37:05.659 – 01:37:09.969] He said, "Say that again." So I said, wrote it down. [01:37:09.969 – 01:37:13.469] Now, that doesn't sound like a very exotic Third Step, does it? [01:37:13.469 – 01:37:23.489] You, you, to use that power, make, turn my will and my life over so that I'm not caught up in little barriers of uneasiness and something, [01:37:23.489 – 01:37:27.529] that, that I'm willing to reach out and actually connect with another human being.

[01:37:27.529 – 01:37:29.709] And to me, that's what that prayer's about. [01:37:29.709 – 01:37:39.909] It's how to get this power functioning in my life so that this is what guides me, this is what directs me, and this is what makes me do the things that'll, [01:37:39.909 – 01:37:43.129] that'll give me good, sound, emotional sobriety. [01:37:43.129 – 01:37:46.689] And it's a huge, huge kind of a, a thing for me in that. [01:37:46.689 – 01:37:49.309] I've done it a thousand different ways. [01:37:49.309 – 01:37:51.969] I've, I've, I've, I've, I've done it one on one. [01:37:51.969 – 01:38:02.209] I've done it by myself countless times on a lake in Minnesota with a bunch, about 30 young guys, and we ring, ringed around and, and did the Third Step prayer at a beautiful

[01:38:02.209 – 01:38:03.009] lake in Minnesota. [01:38:03.009 – 01:38:04.969] There's a thousand ways to do it. [01:38:04.969 – 01:38:08.339] The big thing is recognizing that what I'm- [01:38:08.455 – 01:38:12.995] Doing here is setting up a relationship with a power that's gonna guide me. [01:38:12.995 – 01:38:19.955] Now, if I really wanna do the thorough deal of, of this becoming a way of life, that's what the rest of the steps are for. [01:38:19.955 – 01:38:27.555] And this is what sort of lays that groundwork so that I can dig in and get into some heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy, uh, digging.

[01:38:27.555 – 01:38:30.815] Well, okay. [01:38:30.815 – 01:38:33.195] I was gonna take a drink, but it would've taken a minute. [01:38:33.195 – 01:38:37.974] And so somebody has marching orders for us. [01:38:37.974 – 01:38:39.655] Uh, somebody? [01:38:39.655 – 01:38:41.015] Oh, yeah. [01:38:41.015 – 01:38:41.635] Don't… [01:38:41.635 – 01:38:47.015] I thoroughly enjoyed that thing. [01:38:47.015 – 01:38:48.955] Didn't even get it on my shirt. [01:38:48.955 – 01:38:50.015] That's remarkable. [01:38:50.015 – 01:38:56.295] Oh, so, so thanks to the, to the creator of that. [01:38:56.295 – 01:38:57.255] That was good stuff. [01:38:57.255 – 01:39:01.555] Um, wanna s- wanna spend a little bit of time… [01:39:01.555 – 01:39:04.095] We just got through spending some time on the four steps. [01:39:04.095 – 01:39:07.535] Some of us were talking about, you know, workshop formats and stuff like that.

[01:39:07.535 – 01:39:11.205] Now, we get, we're getting to fourth, and we wanna spend some time on that. [01:39:11.205 – 01:39:14.035] Getting a board, so maybe we can put a little bit of stuff on there. [01:39:14.035 – 01:39:17.755] Um, the, um… [01:39:17.755 – 01:39:21.195] Yeah, what we were talking about is that foundation thing. [01:39:21.195 – 01:39:32.555] The, uh, the fourth step for me was a hugely important, uh, point in my recovery, in [01:39:32.555 – 01:39:32.895] that it… [01:39:32.895 – 01:39:35.195] You know, you know, I, I was indicating about, uh… [01:39:35.195 – 01:39:35.995] Ah, super. [01:39:35.995 – 01:39:37.835] Thank you very much. [01:39:37.835 – 01:39:40.595] A blackboard and no chalk.

[01:39:40.595 – 01:39:41.275] It's coming. [01:39:41.275 – 01:39:45.315] That's, uh- We bought some last year. [01:39:45.315 – 01:39:47.115] Good stuff. [01:39:47.115 – 01:39:48.555] Yeah. [01:39:48.555 – 01:39:58.595] Yeah, I was talking about the fragility of that, that sort of hold I had on stuff when I first got going in the program, and the, uh, the [01:39:58.595 – 01:40:06.175] fact I could have really, would, really could have been knocked over because that was just sort of a, an up here kind of thing. [01:40:06.175 – 01:40:11.935] It was creeping down a little bit into, into my life, but, but it was a tricky journey.

[01:40:11.935 – 01:40:22.035] And, uh, fourth step for me was, um, not just a defining point, but it was a, it was a real turning point in, in, in, [01:40:22.035 – 01:40:23.635] in, in, uh, in, in my recovery. [01:40:23.635 – 01:40:33.675] It's where it really started to take on some solidity, some staying power, where I started to look at sobriety in, in the [01:40:33.675 – 01:40:36.875] long haul, you know, and not, not just, uh… [01:40:36.875 – 01:40:39.115] It's one thing to stay sober a day at a time. [01:40:39.115 – 01:40:40.954] It's another to have a goal.

[01:40:40.954 – 01:40:46.275] And I got to a point where I honest to God wanted to stay sober for the rest of my life. [01:40:46.275 – 01:40:49.955] Uh, you know, realizing that I might gonna have to do it in little small bites. [01:40:49.955 – 01:40:55.115] But I really and truly wanted to live for the rest of my life sober. [01:40:55.115 – 01:41:01.835] And, and, and fourth step was what brought that about, where it got down to some, some, to some very real issues. [01:41:01.835 – 01:41:11.855] And, and like a lot of stuff, uh, we, we really didn't do a lot, uh, ma- uh, uh, planfully back in those days,

[01:41:11.915 – 01:41:13.915] where we used organized approaches to it. [01:41:13.915 – 01:41:18.775] Um, right now, it's just like we were talking shop at lunchtime. [01:41:18.775 – 01:41:29.195] Uh, we've got more stuff going on with workshops and seminars and all this kind of stuff in, in one week than we had in the f- in the first probably [01:41:29.195 – 01:41:35.955] f- 35 year, 35, 40 years of the program because that stuff just wasn't done back then. [01:41:35.955 – 01:41:45.955] There, there's a kind of a romantic notion that we did it a lot more thoroughly and soundly and strongful– strongly back in

[01:41:45.955 – 01:41:47.255] those days, but that's just not right. [01:41:47.255 – 01:41:49.335] Uh, not that I ever saw. [01:41:49.335 – 01:41:54.415] You know, we, we were basically a bunch of wild cats that were just charging around. [01:41:54.415 – 01:42:04.475] A- and I worked steps when somebody wasn't throwing up on me, yeah, 'cause- …'cause those were action days and, uh, this thing of, of really, really [01:42:04.475 – 01:42:11.135] just, you know, going at it in a real thoughtful kind of way like we were talking about was, uh, was wishful thinking. [01:42:11.135 – 01:42:12.615] It wasn't even good wishful thinking.

[01:42:12.615 – 01:42:18.295] The, uh, one thing I learned from that, that there is no exact way to do the steps. [01:42:18.295 – 01:42:21.655] There, these are things that have got… [01:42:21.655 – 01:42:27.135] Every one of us are different, and every one of us is gonna have a different kind of a deal. [01:42:27.135 – 01:42:38.315] And, and my job when, when I'm s- when I'm starting to work with somebody in steps, my job, the way I understand my job description, is not to [01:42:38.315 – 01:42:40.475] build a new clone for the AA army.

[01:42:40.475 – 01:42:42.655] That's, that's not what we're about. [01:42:42.655 – 01:42:44.415] We're not in the cloning business. [01:42:44.415 – 01:42:54.415] I think my job is to take people who've got enough confidence to ask me to help them, uh, to help them achieve their maximum potential [01:42:54.415 – 01:42:56.275] in whatever way that goes. [01:42:56.275 – 01:43:01.915] And I have many people who, who, who that I sponsor who don't follow my track. [01:43:01.915 – 01:43:06.075] You know, they, they've, they've gotta find their own place because they're different human beings. [01:43:06.075 – 01:43:14.775] And so if, if I just try to get somebody cloned into the ranks and do it my way, uh, I, I think I'm doing a disservice to them.

[01:43:14.775 – 01:43:23.815] And, and so what I do when, when we're doing one of these things is to recognize that we're all different people and, and we're not somebody that's just gonna be cut out of the same mold. [01:43:23.815 – 01:43:33.975] And, and so what I learned from my early erratic experience is that if you do it honestly to the best of your ability, it's hard [01:43:33.975 – 01:43:37.495] to do it wrong because the steps will guide us. [01:43:37.495 – 01:43:37.685] You know? [01:43:37.685 – 01:43:46.055] Now, certainly it helps to be able to sit with kindred spirits like, like we were talking about out here, Ron, Bob, and I, some more guys.

[01:43:46.055 – 01:43:54.195] Uh, that's really helps, and that's powerful, and it's effective, but, but it's, it's, but it's not the only way to do it. [01:43:54.195 – 01:43:56.034] There are a lot of ways to get there. [01:43:56.034 – 01:44:05.275] And, uh, so what happened to me, I was, I was, uh, just trucking along and sort of getting caught into the program a little bit. [01:44:05.275 – 01:44:07.655] Nothing real major league substantial. [01:44:07.655 – 01:44:17.443] And, uh, I went to a meeting one day- And a, and a fellow spoke for the entire meeting about the fourth step.

[01:44:17.443 – 01:44:18.383] That's all he talked about. [01:44:18.383 – 01:44:21.283] Read it out of the book. [01:44:21.283 – 01:44:25.723] Uh, it, it was, it was, it was, it was almost mind-numbing, he talked about it so long. [01:44:25.723 – 01:44:34.173] And went into great detail about all of the examples, and, and, uh, criticality of writing it, and, and all that stuff. [01:44:34.173 – 01:44:40.543] Now, I knew what he was talking about intellectually, because I was always a reader. [01:44:40.543 – 01:44:40.823] When I… [01:44:40.823 – 01:44:42.483] I, I've always been a reader. [01:44:42.483 – 01:44:46.423] And, and when I came in the program, I was, uh, I was a …

[01:44:46.423 – 01:44:48.263] I'm a single, just a purpose guy. [01:44:48.263 – 01:44:49.842] But I, I had… [01:44:49.842 – 01:44:56.043] I, I was coming off speed when I first got in the program, and that's an interesting journey. [01:44:56.043 – 01:44:57.843] I- But coming off that, I… [01:44:57.843 – 01:45:00.583] Well, you talk about an alert mind. [01:45:00.583 – 01:45:01.563] Man alive. [01:45:01.563 – 01:45:02.303] Thank God. [01:45:02.303 – 01:45:03.383] Jeez. [01:45:03.383 – 01:45:06.743] I could read the big book in, in a half a day. [01:45:06.743 – 01:45:06.963] I… [01:45:06.963 – 01:45:09.823] You know, that, that reading was no problem. [01:45:09.823 – 01:45:15.923] Retention was a little different, but- Uh, anyway, that's, that's just a, an outside issue.

[01:45:15.923 – 01:45:18.063] It wasn't outside when I was going through it. [01:45:18.063 – 01:45:19.263] I'll tell you that. [01:45:19.263 – 01:45:25.733] But so when he, when he did that talk on the, uh, on the fourth step, I knew the words. [01:45:25.733 – 01:45:31.603] But there is a huge difference between knowing the words and having the experience. [01:45:31.603 – 01:45:40.403] And, and so when he got through with, with the deal, I, I, I went back to, to, to, to, to my c- my, uh… [01:45:40.403 – 01:45:41.963] I haven't been out too long. [01:45:41.963 – 01:45:42.503] Cell. [01:45:42.503 – 01:45:43.503] Cell.

[01:45:43.503 – 01:45:44.143] That's what… [01:45:44.143 – 01:45:46.963] No, I haven't been out too long. [01:45:46.963 – 01:45:50.943] I just happen to have a little, little, uh, senility setting in. [01:45:50.943 – 01:45:56.683] But I went back, and I s- I said, "Well, I think I'm gonna do that. [01:45:56.683 – 01:46:01.643] I'm, I'm gonna do that stuff." Uh, because it made sense, and I understood what he was talking about, I thought. [01:46:01.643 – 01:46:08.643] And, and I was at a point where I was really hooked on the horns of causation, you know. [01:46:08.643 – 01:46:10.103] And I w- and I…

[01:46:10.103 – 01:46:20.123] What I meant to do was to write a little story, sad story, I'm sure, about how such a nice fellow as me wound up in such a [01:46:20.123 – 01:46:20.523] mess. [01:46:20.523 – 01:46:25.903] And, uh, I'm, I'm sure it would've been heart-rending to, to read that thing. [01:46:25.903 – 01:46:28.963] But the founders were wise. [01:46:28.963 – 01:46:38.963] The, the people who wrote the book were wise when they said, "Write the inventory." Because I started to write with the old l- long legal pad, the old long yellow one.

[01:46:38.963 – 01:46:44.023] Started to write, and I literally wrote two lines of what I had in mind. [01:46:44.023 – 01:46:54.503] And then, I swear to you, with no anticipation, no planning, no idea, no format, no nothing [01:46:54.503 – 01:46:58.063] other than just what I'd read, all at once… [01:46:58.063 – 01:46:59.843] We call it a lot of things. [01:46:59.843 – 01:47:00.043] I… [01:47:00.043 – 01:47:01.783] You know, a moment of clarity or whatever. [01:47:01.783 – 01:47:10.083] But all at once, I, I think I saw the farce of my life just at one time. [01:47:10.083 – 01:47:16.943] And it wasn't dramatic or anything like that, but I d- I think that charade just came to an end.

[01:47:16.943 – 01:47:20.273] And, and I stopped at two lines, and I stopped. [01:47:20.273 – 01:47:30.523] And then with no planning whatsoever, no planning whatsoever, other than just what I'd sort of picked up, I opened up and [01:47:30.523 – 01:47:32.683] just started to pour out my heart, that's all. [01:47:32.683 – 01:47:39.863] It was not a thoughtful, planful, well laid out inventory by any stretch of the imagination. [01:47:39.863 – 01:47:45.523] What it was was a tortured young fella pouring out his life, that's all. [01:47:45.523 – 01:47:54.323] And when I got through with that thing, I had three of those long yellow pad pages filled with hopeless scribble.

[01:47:54.323 – 01:47:56.383] Nobody could've read it. [01:47:56.383 – 01:47:57.423] Nobody's supposed to. [01:47:57.423 – 01:48:00.263] That was my inventory. [01:48:00.263 – 01:48:04.783] Now, it did not have anything about, about Mr. [01:48:04.783 – 01:48:07.963] Brown or, or any of those folk, uh, and their antics. [01:48:07.963 – 01:48:09.183] It had none of that. [01:48:09.183 – 01:48:12.463] It had no real form to it. [01:48:12.463 – 01:48:18.003] I, I guess, uh, uh, uh, somebody that knew these kinds of things would call that a cathartic experience. [01:48:18.003 – 01:48:22.043] You know, I just sorta, I just unloaded my life. [01:48:22.043 – 01:48:30.883] Stuff that I'd carried around for my entire life, some of which I had never even thought of, but just came out, and it was barely legible.

[01:48:30.883 – 01:48:34.823] But when I got through with that, I was a different man. [01:48:34.823 – 01:48:36.143] I was a different man. [01:48:36.143 – 01:48:38.123] I've done… [01:48:38.123 – 01:48:42.063] Now, I'm not an analysis paralysis guy. [01:48:42.063 – 01:48:45.963] Uh, I am a great believer in inventory. [01:48:45.963 – 01:48:55.523] I am also a great believer in proportion, you know, so, so I'm not somebody who does a quarterly inventory or anything like that. [01:48:55.523 – 01:49:02.083] The way I look at it right now, I must do one about every 17 years. [01:49:02.772 – 01:49:03.512] Or something like that. [01:49:03.512 – 01:49:05.712] 15 or something like that.

[01:49:05.712 – 01:49:13.772] That I did that first one, then I did the next one, which was more thoughtful and followed the, the, the outline. [01:49:13.772 – 01:49:18.212] Who had g- started to get down to causes and conditions for real. [01:49:18.212 – 01:49:28.522] Um, and then a, a third one that was really more situational that then it wasn't so much going back to the, you know, the, the etiology [01:49:28.522 – 01:49:30.692] of my own alcoholism or my history of that. [01:49:30.692 – 01:49:32.692] It was really more of a situational. [01:49:32.692 – 01:49:37.872] So that's three in 49 years, and, and, uh, I'm pretty happy with that right now.

[01:49:37.872 – 01:49:47.892] Um, now those are thorough inventories, and those to me are in-depth things, where you really get down to the nitty-gritty of what [01:49:47.892 – 01:49:48.872] the illness is about. [01:49:48.872 – 01:49:52.172] Now, I know people who go the polar opposite of that. [01:49:52.172 – 01:49:58.552] I, I was, I was doing a workshop out in Utah a while back, and if you talk about polar opposites, that… [01:49:58.552 – 01:50:04.092] I, I sort of laid out essentially what I just said there about… [01:50:04.092 – 01:50:05.272] I've got another one right here, Ron.

[01:50:05.272 – 01:50:05.902] Oh. [01:50:05.902 – 01:50:07.692] Okay, right, thanks very, very much. [01:50:07.692 – 01:50:10.592] Yeah, I appreciate it, though. [01:50:10.592 – 01:50:20.452] I j- I just kind of laid that out, and there was a guy in the group who was he, he didn't say anything, but I could tell he was almost aghast at that. [01:50:20.452 – 01:50:22.252] And he said, uh… [01:50:22.252 – 01:50:24.432] He's, he's about a 25-year guy. [01:50:24.432 – 01:50:34.472] He said, he said, "Now that's really something." He said, "But I am as much different from that as could possibly be." He said, "I imagine that

[01:50:34.472 – 01:50:44.572] in 25 years I've probably done 200 inventory." And I said, "How about that?" And he said, "I do it every day." And [01:50:44.572 – 01:50:46.632] he said, "Well, every day I do an… [01:50:46.632 – 01:50:53.532] uh, not a, just a ledger." He said, "I do an inventory of everything that happens during the day." And so he's laying it out. [01:50:53.532 – 01:51:03.712] You know, I said, "Do you have any hobbies, by the way?" He, he, he said, "Well, no." But, yeah, that [01:51:03.712 – 01:51:04.392] fits him. [01:51:04.392 – 01:51:06.152] Yeah, that fits him.

[01:51:06.152 – 01:51:10.512] And more power to it, but I d- I can't afford that many ballpoint pens. [01:51:10.512 – 01:51:12.752] I guess … [01:51:12.752 – 01:51:15.852] No, I just don't s- I don't see the need to do, do that personally. [01:51:15.852 – 01:51:17.312] I, you know, I, I do it a different way. [01:51:17.312 – 01:51:21.032] That's, that's got a kick to it. [01:51:21.032 – 01:51:25.592] So tho- that was what I did. [01:51:25.592 – 01:51:31.112] And that first one, when I got through with that thing, what made that so important was that… [01:51:31.112 – 01:51:34.902] And it was important, this most important inventory I've ever done.

[01:51:34.902 – 01:51:41.152] Because it had some real impact on, on my core beliefs. [01:51:41.152 – 01:51:49.092] The day I finished that inventory, I knew at the pit of my soul that I was alcoholic. [01:51:49.092 – 01:51:56.391] Not the young guy, not the tragic case, none of that stuff, not the whiz kid. [01:51:56.391 – 01:52:01.432] I knew I was alcoholic without one question whatsoever. [01:52:01.432 – 01:52:08.312] That was an absolute complete total admission, surrender. [01:52:08.312 – 01:52:19.011] Enough so that all these years later, I have never for one second doubted that I'm alcoholic. [01:52:19.011 – 01:52:19.952] Never.

[01:52:19.952 – 01:52:22.152] That war was over. [01:52:22.152 – 01:52:23.712] That war was done. [01:52:23.712 – 01:52:29.212] And it will never be resumed unless I make one mistake, and that's take a drink. [01:52:29.212 – 01:52:31.932] If I take a drink, all bets are off. [01:52:31.932 – 01:52:35.032] Otherwise, I'm at peace. [01:52:35.032 – 01:52:38.592] There was a heck of a battle, but I lost. [01:52:38.592 – 01:52:40.002] I got lost. [01:52:40.002 – 01:52:43.272] I, I, I got absolutely knocked cold. [01:52:43.272 – 01:52:46.072] So I have no illusions. [01:52:46.072 – 01:52:53.792] I'm somebody who has a condition whose nature is that if I take one drink of anything with alcohol in it, I cannot predict what I'll do.

[01:52:53.792 – 01:53:00.892] I can't predict how much I'll drink, how long I'll drink, what I'll do when I drink, that it just happens. [01:53:00.892 – 01:53:08.292] And so I accept that, and I'm at peace with that, and it has never reared its ugly head. [01:53:08.292 – 01:53:10.772] It was done. [01:53:10.772 – 01:53:21.152] The other thing that happened was that I started to get a feel in that process that there really is [01:53:21.152 – 01:53:23.061] more complexity to this thing. [01:53:23.061 – 01:53:34.372] I didn't get real good solid closure on it, but I got at least enough of a look to believe, to

[01:53:34.372 – 01:53:40.332] know in my own mind, that alcoholism is not something I drank my way into. [01:53:40.332 – 01:53:44.292] Alcoholism is not something I bought at a bar. [01:53:44.292 – 01:53:46.192] I just don't believe that. [01:53:46.192 – 01:53:53.272] You know, alcoholism is something where alcohol did something peculiarly important for me. [01:53:53.272 – 01:54:03.352] I was a guy who was set up, ready-made to have, if not problems with alcohol, for alcohol to have an exaggerated importance [01:54:03.352 – 01:54:03.792] for me. [01:54:03.792 – 01:54:13.392] You know, you know how many times I hear, and I guarantee you if we told the stories in here right now we'd hear it over and over, that I was the kind of person who found life uncomfortable.

[01:54:13.392 – 01:54:14.892] I was somebody who didn't fit in. [01:54:14.892 – 01:54:17.392] I was where Kent mentioned last night. [01:54:17.392 – 01:54:19.212] You know, that we all, all, most of us do. [01:54:19.212 – 01:54:22.752] I was somebody that found this kind of uncomfortable going. [01:54:22.752 – 01:54:32.872] And so I didn't think so much about it then, but I have a lot since, that there's things that set me up so that I am [01:54:32.872 – 01:54:36.352] an, a ready-made candidate for trouble with booze. [01:54:36.352 – 01:54:40.252] And to me, that's the other part of what inventory's about.

[01:54:40.252 – 01:54:47.132] Is one, is about recognizing the futility and hopelessness of my life if I drink. [01:54:47.132 – 01:54:57.152] The other is knowing what it is that drives me, that propels me in such a bizarre kind of way, uh, uh, that I go through life, [01:54:57.152 – 01:54:59.932] so that when I stop drinking, I'm worse. [01:54:59.932 – 01:55:00.672] Why is that? [01:55:00.672 – 01:55:02.152] It's not a hangover. [01:55:02.152 – 01:55:04.832] What is it that makes me sort of ill at ease? [01:55:04.832 – 01:55:12.272] What is it that causes my mind, at times- To turn irresistibly to the thought of a drink.

[01:55:12.272 – 01:55:15.432] That's alcoholism, you know. [01:55:15.432 – 01:55:25.232] And so what I started to do then was to get some notion about those things that rule my life, what it is that drives me. [01:55:25.232 – 01:55:35.252] Now, when I first came in the program, and I heard people talking about defects of character, I t- I thought they were talking about behavior, about [01:55:35.252 – 01:55:36.152] things I did. [01:55:36.152 – 01:55:42.112] But then when I started to get a little bit of insight into this, I saw that's not what we were talking about at all.

[01:55:42.112 – 01:55:46.752] What we were talking about were the things that drove my behavior. [01:55:46.752 – 01:55:49.232] What is it that drives me in such a way? [01:55:49.232 – 01:55:51.912] And so that started to… [01:55:51.912 – 01:55:56.992] It, it didn't get as definitively done in that first one, but it cracked the door. [01:55:56.992 – 01:56:05.852] It opened a bit so that I could see that there was some real smelly cheese in Denmark, that I had to take a look at that thing. [01:56:05.852 – 01:56:16.692] And, uh, so it had its great value and, uh, it did a lot to solidify me, not only in the sure conviction that,

[01:56:16.692 – 01:56:18.072] that I'm beat. [01:56:18.072 – 01:56:19.632] That's surrender. [01:56:19.632 – 01:56:21.432] That's surrender. [01:56:21.432 – 01:56:31.582] And what that did was give me that long view I was talking about so that I knew that my options were not that I'm a nice fella and I'm gonna quit drinking because [01:56:31.582 – 01:56:32.692] I'll get better off. [01:56:32.692 – 01:56:37.972] I was somebody who accepted core down, I'm beat. [01:56:37.972 – 01:56:40.972] I am somebody who can't drink. [01:56:40.972 – 01:56:45.752] When I say I'm not gonna drink, that's a combative term. [01:56:45.752 – 01:56:49.332] When I say I can't drink, that's a freeing term.

[01:56:49.332 – 01:56:52.972] And so that's what I accept, is the fact that I'm just somebody who can't drink. [01:56:52.972 – 01:56:59.131] And, uh, so then to take a look at those things that, that start, start to drive me. [01:56:59.131 – 01:57:06.012] And what I started to look at, I'll just give you an, an example of, uh, the, the kind of stuff that's laid out… [01:57:06.012 – 01:57:07.912] My memory's horrible when… [01:57:07.912 – 01:57:09.272] The, uh… [01:57:09.272 – 01:57:11.252] Well, you can coach me a little bit on what… [01:57:11.252 – 01:57:20.252] Let, let's put the line in here on, uh, on, uh, say we're gonna look at, uh, at, at resentments.

[01:57:20.252 – 01:57:27.332] And, uh, just take a look at, at, at, at one. [01:57:27.332 – 01:57:30.652] Surprising, you know, what, what… [01:57:30.652 – 01:57:38.932] You know, I find a lot of interplay between resentments and fear and, and, and there's some that would fit either column. [01:57:38.932 – 01:57:39.332] Yeah. [01:57:39.332 – 01:57:44.912] For example, I'll, I get, uh, I guess parents always get beat up an awful lot. [01:57:44.912 – 01:57:50.952] I could list a whole bunch of stuff here, but let me give you one that would, uh, was kind of surprising to me. [01:57:50.952 – 01:57:53.912] It didn't show up on the first one, but it ultimately did.

[01:57:53.912 – 01:57:59.152] Uh, I had a, a, a tricky relationship with my mother. [01:57:59.152 – 01:58:01.392] And, uh, I… [01:58:01.392 – 01:58:09.452] When I say tricky, what I'm talking about, I w- I grew up in a home, uh, my mother, she a wonderful person. [01:58:09.452 – 01:58:12.392] She's one of the finest mothers in the world, she just overdid it. [01:58:12.392 – 01:58:17.752] And, and she was, she was somebody who, who practiced what we call smother love. [01:58:17.752 – 01:58:20.212] And, uh, and she loved me. [01:58:20.212 – 01:58:27.752] There was absolutely no question about it, and I know that that woman would've given her life for me on a whim.

[01:58:27.752 – 01:58:29.432] She would've gladly done that. [01:58:29.432 – 01:58:30.632] I don't have any question about it. [01:58:30.632 – 01:58:40.692] I also know that if I had been willing to do so, I could have stayed in her home drunk for the rest of my life at [01:58:40.692 – 01:58:41.572] her expense. [01:58:41.572 – 01:58:43.412] She would've never run me off. [01:58:43.412 – 01:58:45.732] She was that kind of person. [01:58:45.732 – 01:58:48.712] You know, she never believed I was an alcoholic. [01:58:48.712 – 01:58:49.872] She never did. [01:58:49.872 – 01:58:52.132] She saw me in some bizarre situations. [01:58:52.132 – 01:58:56.122] But I heard her one day I was in the, I was in the hou…

[01:58:56.122 – 01:58:59.852] I guess she didn't know I was in earshot, but she was talking to a neighbor. [01:58:59.852 – 01:59:09.872] And the neighbor said, "What does your son do that he's on the go so much?" And, uh, she said, "Oh, he's in that [01:59:09.872 – 01:59:13.892] AA thing." And, uh, the woman said, "Is that right? [01:59:13.892 – 01:59:23.492] Is he an alcoholic?" And she said, "Oh, no, no, no." Said, that, "He's always been a good boy." Jeez. [01:59:23.492 – 01:59:26.652] Mama's the last to know. [01:59:26.652 – 01:59:34.072] I te- But, and I mean, that's just nat- That's, that's natural for a s- somebody that kind of overdoes

[01:59:57.003 – 01:59:58.623] She's, she's this kind of a person. [01:59:58.623 – 02:00:03.423] She was a strong, she was a big lady, strong and, and domineering. [02:00:03.423 – 02:00:06.643] And, uh, she, she had, uh… [02:00:06.643 – 02:00:11.983] We had kind of a, of, of a jumbled up family, family thing going on. [02:00:11.983 – 02:00:17.083] I was born in, uh, Tobacco Road down in the end of South Carolina. [02:00:17.083 – 02:00:21.943] It's where I got introduced to that fundamentalist Bible Belt religion that didn't take well. [02:00:21.943 – 02:00:30.102] And, uh, my father deserted the family when, when I was, uh, uh, four years old.

[02:00:30.102 – 02:00:37.843] And, and I remember, uh, to be sure, it's not a clear shot, but I remember the day he walked off, and I knew he wasn't coming back. [02:00:37.843 – 02:00:41.683] And, uh, didn't know where he was going, but I knew it was a one-way trip. [02:00:41.683 – 02:00:43.663] And he didn't. [02:00:43.663 – 02:00:47.723] And she replaced him shortly after with another guy. [02:00:47.723 – 02:00:50.603] It, it was … [02:00:50.603 – 02:00:54.423] I, I don't mean any offense to anybody that's got different kinds of makeup. [02:00:54.423 – 02:00:58.223] But he was, he was, he was not much.

[02:00:58.223 – 02:01:02.043] I, uh, he was, he was just a little old runt of a guy. [02:01:02.043 – 02:01:06.123] I, I think Mother probably married him because she thought he could, she could punch him around. [02:01:06.123 – 02:01:10.003] But, but he was just a slug of a guy. [02:01:10.003 – 02:01:10.703] Y- you know what I mean? [02:01:10.703 – 02:01:16.543] And, and when he came to my house, I knew that sucker was not my daddy. [02:01:16.543 – 02:01:17.863] I knew that. [02:01:17.863 – 02:01:21.803] And, uh, but I was young enough, I had to call that thing Daddy.

[02:01:21.803 – 02:01:23.383] And I mean, I didn't like him. [02:01:23.383 – 02:01:24.393] I flat didn't like him. [02:01:24.393 – 02:01:26.643] The day he drove up, and it got worse every day. [02:01:26.643 – 02:01:31.223] He was just an obscene, coarse, rude, idiot guy. [02:01:31.223 – 02:01:33.063] And other than that, he was all right. [02:01:33.063 – 02:01:37.833] But, but, but I grew up with that thing, you know. [02:01:37.833 – 02:01:42.083] And so I'm here with him, and I'm despising him. [02:01:42.083 – 02:01:46.503] And, uh, so it, it was, it was not a happy time. [02:01:46.503 – 02:01:53.403] And, and I promised myself if I ever got big enough, I was gonna beat that dude like a drum.

[02:01:53.403 – 02:01:56.743] You know, went off to the military, came back, I was too big. [02:01:56.743 – 02:01:58.223] I, you can't whip a runt. [02:01:58.223 – 02:02:00.802] And I, but I wanted to, though. [02:02:00.802 – 02:02:03.323] Yeah, the, the old fool died. [02:02:03.323 – 02:02:06.363] And, uh, never did get to whoop him. [02:02:06.363 – 02:02:07.662] I, yeah. [02:02:07.662 – 02:02:19.643] To the untrained ear, that might sound like a resentment, but- What, [02:02:19.643 – 02:02:29.483] what, whatever it is, I ain't gonna fix it because I, I don't wanna get well enough that I accept that dough head. [02:02:29.483 – 02:02:30.923] He… [02:02:30.923 – 02:02:39.263] Yes, so anyway, uh, those things had a little bit of influence in shaping stuff, you know.

[02:02:39.263 – 02:02:42.843] And, uh, uh, he went away finally. [02:02:42.843 – 02:02:49.103] And, uh, and I, I go by where he's buried every once in a while and make sure he's still in there. [02:02:49.103 – 02:02:54.663] I- Fred, ain't that awful? [02:02:54.663 – 02:02:56.283] Ain't that awful? [02:02:56.283 – 02:03:05.973] Uh, the, uh, then she married some others too, but- … [02:03:05.973 – 02:03:09.363] not all at once, you know, but they, they just periodically she'd marry somebody. [02:03:09.363 – 02:03:18.523] Well, yeah, the, the thing of it, and all this kind of played in, I won't go through all of it here, but it sort of played into shaping this dude.

[02:03:18.523 – 02:03:20.763] You know, th- I mean, those things all have an effect. [02:03:20.763 – 02:03:30.783] Now, seriously, you know, one of the significant things in that thing was that I never [02:03:30.783 – 02:03:35.023] had a, a, a significant male in my life till I was grown. [02:03:35.023 – 02:03:41.443] You know, that had, excuse me, that had any role, any function in my life. [02:03:41.443 – 02:03:45.183] Never went hunting with a man in my life till I was grown. [02:03:45.183 – 02:03:48.773] Fishing, serious conversation. [02:03:48.773 – 02:03:53.383] Well, those are not just simple little omissions. [02:03:53.383 – 02:03:55.643] They're significant.

[02:03:55.643 – 02:04:05.203] You know, when a father walks out on a, on a family and walks away from a four-year-old kid, you can rationate that, rationalize that all you want to, but that does big time damage. [02:04:05.203 – 02:04:12.163] And so all that sort of comes together in these sort of focal points. [02:04:12.163 – 02:04:17.263] And I grew up in, in a matriarchal society. [02:04:17.263 – 02:04:22.903] Uh, my mother and my sister were the only permanent personnel in my family. [02:04:22.903 – 02:04:25.443] And so I grew up in that. [02:04:25.443 – 02:04:33.223] And, and so that has a little impact on your trying to develop your masculinity and your identity of who you are as a person.

[02:04:33.223 – 02:04:43.223] And, uh, troubling little old thoughts come in, you know, like, like, uh, you know, how do you get developed as a male if you're in a female [02:04:43.223 – 02:04:44.223] world? [02:04:44.223 – 02:04:45.203] And so it kind of trouble… [02:04:45.203 – 02:04:51.983] I was, I was in a I was in a, I don't know what I was doing there, but I, I got in a lecture one time. [02:04:51.983 – 02:04:53.623] It was not an AA meeting. [02:04:53.623 – 02:04:54.803] It, it was, uh, this… [02:04:54.803 – 02:05:04.823] But a guy, a psychiatrist was talking about the incidence of latent homosexuality in male

[02:05:04.823 – 02:05:05.483] alcoholics. [02:05:05.483 – 02:05:08.403] Well, I mean, I'd heard stuff like that. [02:05:08.403 – 02:05:13.823] And, uh, there was a buddy of mine sitting with me who was about 20 years sober. [02:05:13.823 – 02:05:17.583] Well, I don't think he'd ever heard any of that stuff before. [02:05:17.583 – 02:05:21.433] And so he was just, just sitting there- … [02:05:21.433 – 02:05:22.283] just taking that in. [02:05:22.283 – 02:05:24.363] He was absolutely enthralled with that deal. [02:05:24.363 – 02:05:27.523] And, and I got kind of a fiendish mind, you know. [02:05:27.523 – 02:05:35.743] I, I was, I just sort of very, very quietly, I just sort of reached over and t- took his hand.

[02:05:35.743 – 02:05:44.843] And, and you know how you can almost see the current going up to his mind? [02:05:44.843 – 02:05:51.063] And when he realized that, that guy leaped up, and he called me some names. [02:05:51.063 – 02:05:52.643] I'd never been called in a bar. [02:05:52.643 – 02:05:55.163] And broke up the class, man. [02:05:55.163 – 02:05:56.183] The lecture was over. [02:05:56.183 – 02:06:05.605] And I, I caught him a little later in the hall, and I said, "Did I hit a nerve?" And he- You got to start again, you know? [02:06:05.605 – 02:06:12.535] So anyway, uh, you know, the little things like that'll just sort of cr- cross your screen every once in a while.

[02:06:12.535 – 02:06:13.475] Who am I here? [02:06:13.475 – 02:06:19.694] And so, so what does that all have to do with anything? [02:06:19.694 – 02:06:29.695] You know, with, with a mother, you know, it's a, it's a real mixed thing because I knew that she loved me, but I knew that [02:06:29.695 – 02:06:33.415] I couldn't be around her because when she was, she just devoured me, you know? [02:06:33.415 – 02:06:43.055] Now, I didn't think that through, but it was a part of why I always left, you know, why I wouldn't stay there, why I was always running away, why I was always doing some goofy stuff.

[02:06:43.055 – 02:06:47.535] And so when that started to show up on inventory, it showed… [02:06:47.535 – 02:06:49.875] It did show up in both, uh, uh, resentment and fear. [02:06:49.875 – 02:06:59.975] But in that one, you know, I had to look at that and, uh, that, [02:06:59.975 – 02:07:03.895] that she, that she, uh, she overdid it, you know? [02:07:03.895 – 02:07:10.555] That, that, that smother love thing, so I couldn't be very comfortable with that. [02:07:10.555 – 02:07:16.895] That the, um, the… [02:07:16.895 – 02:07:18.885] What is that column? [02:07:18.885 – 02:07:20.145] Causes. [02:07:20.145 – 02:07:20.495] It's, uh… [02:07:20.495 – 02:07:21.145] Oh, cause. [02:07:21.145 – 02:07:21.815] Yeah, okay. [02:07:21.815 – 02:07:28.585] The other one- Effects.

[02:07:28.585 – 02:07:28.725] Affected spine. [02:07:28.725 – 02:07:29.805] Affec- affected my- Where is my life today? [02:07:29.805 – 02:07:30.055] Yeah. [02:07:30.055 – 02:07:31.295] I just want to make sure y'all with it. [02:07:31.295 – 02:07:36.275] And then w- with my piece of it? [02:07:36.275 – 02:07:37.295] My mindset. [02:07:37.295 – 02:07:37.515] Yeah. [02:07:37.515 – 02:07:38.994] What did I do? [02:07:38.994 – 02:07:39.045] Yeah. [02:07:39.045 – 02:07:40.895] Yeah, what did I do? [02:07:40.895 – 02:07:41.195] All right. [02:07:41.195 – 02:07:46.555] Yeah, I have done this over 5,000 times with it. [02:07:46.555 – 02:07:54.975] Um, what you could sort of gather from what I was, sort of visited around with there a little bit about what does it do. [02:07:54.975 – 02:07:55.285] What does…

[02:07:55.285 – 02:07:57.155] W- what, she overdid that thing. [02:07:57.155 – 02:07:57.855] What does it do? [02:07:57.855 – 02:08:09.455] It's, well, it, it affects my independence, you know, that I can't be a, a grown-up independent guy, my masculinity, freedom. [02:08:09.455 – 02:08:14.035] You know, d- on down. [02:08:14.035 – 02:08:16.775] You could go with a whole ton of the stuff like that. [02:08:16.775 – 02:08:18.405] And so this is what… [02:08:18.405 – 02:08:26.295] And I never did really think that through until I got in inventory, started taking a look at what is it that's creating this thing in my relationship.

[02:08:26.295 – 02:08:32.995] What is it that makes me have a, a sort of a love, fear, anger relationship with my own mother? [02:08:32.995 – 02:08:37.535] And, uh, those are not things that I just consciously think about. [02:08:37.535 – 02:08:42.395] But when I start taking a look at what went wrong, what is it that sets me up like this, and what did I do? [02:08:42.395 – 02:08:48.235] Well, the short answer would be nothing in terms of anything direct. [02:08:48.235 – 02:08:49.895] What'd I do? [02:08:49.895 – 02:08:52.895] You know, I ran away a lot. [02:08:52.895 – 02:08:53.415] I ran.

[02:08:53.415 – 02:08:55.035] I, uh, uh, what did… [02:08:55.035 – 02:08:57.345] A b- better question, what did I fail to do? [02:08:57.345 – 02:09:01.515] I never, never discussed it. [02:09:01.515 – 02:09:04.355] Never talked to her about that. [02:09:04.355 – 02:09:08.595] Never expressed a single thing other than by my actions. [02:09:08.595 – 02:09:08.894] You know? [02:09:08.894 – 02:09:16.635] And so what I learned was how to deal with, with, with, with relationships and how to, to not be too open, not to let people get close. [02:09:16.635 – 02:09:27.075] Well, let, let me just sort of take that apart and tell you, th- this was, this was a hugely important

[02:09:27.075 – 02:09:29.675] thing for me to start to identify. [02:09:29.675 – 02:09:39.735] I, I tell you the, the way that started to play out, and, and we'll get to a little bit of it a, a little later on, but in looking at this, this program [02:09:39.735 – 02:09:45.215] of recovery, awfully important to know what the causes and conditions are. [02:09:45.215 – 02:09:48.175] You know, what are these defects of, of, of character? [02:09:48.175 – 02:09:51.875] What are these things that shape the way I function? [02:09:51.875 – 02:09:53.635] What is it that drives me in a certain way?

[02:09:53.635 – 02:10:01.355] Uh, very important because what that does, it sets up the ground for amends. [02:10:01.355 – 02:10:04.595] You know, how do I am- how do I go back and make this right? [02:10:04.595 – 02:10:11.875] And so this kind of thing is very important in terms of understanding what it is that drives me on and on. [02:10:11.875 – 02:10:21.955] Um, let's say I, I won't r- play, play it out there, but that father that I mentioned, that's the strange thing about, um, about [02:10:21.955 – 02:10:26.675] these defects and about, uh, the, the, the things where you need to go make it right.

[02:10:26.675 – 02:10:36.715] I was sober some 12 to 15 years when I started to become troubled of the fact that [02:10:36.715 – 02:10:41.234] I needed to make amends to the father who deserted the family. [02:10:41.234 – 02:10:51.125] Not the little guy, but the one who deserted the family, and I thought, "Boy, that has got to be the weirdest thing I've ever thought of." I thought, "That's- [02:10:51.260 – 02:10:51.540] Stupid. [02:10:51.540 – 02:10:52.860] What am I gonna make amends for? [02:10:52.860 – 02:10:56.539] God deserts a four-year-old child, and I'm gonna go make amends. [02:10:56.539 – 02:11:03.880] And it took a little while for me to get settled in that our amends are not about the other person so much, they're about me.

[02:11:03.880 – 02:11:09.120] And what I had done was carried around those feelings. [02:11:09.120 – 02:11:19.500] 'Cause when that happens, I didn't cry about it, I just absorbed a re- a realization that he's gone. [02:11:19.500 – 02:11:26.860] And I didn't realize for a long time what that did in terms of impact on me. [02:11:26.860 – 02:11:29.900] Now, what was it that made me insecure? [02:11:29.900 – 02:11:31.670] What was it made me anxious? [02:11:31.670 – 02:11:36.680] What was it that made me, uh, embarrassed, ashamed of things that I had nothing to do with? [02:11:36.680 – 02:11:44.860] What was it that gave me kind of a low level of anger about nothing, just kind of an anger disposition?

[02:11:44.860 – 02:11:55.140] And, and so it, that kind of thing, it starts to show up in this inventory so I can understand what it is that drives me in such a strange [02:11:55.140 – 02:11:59.230] kind of a way, and then lays the groundwork for trying to make that right. [02:11:59.230 – 02:12:02.540] I'll tell you one other thing that came out of this one in case I forget it later on. [02:12:02.540 – 02:12:04.600] You know, we, we… [02:12:04.600 – 02:12:05.500] You, you, you… [02:12:05.500 – 02:12:11.140] Every once in a while you'll hear the, the, the notion of relationships come up in, in this program.

[02:12:11.140 – 02:12:21.850] I never had a genuine, committed relationship with, [02:12:21.850 – 02:12:31.620] with many people at all, and never with a woman until I was, what, 36 years old or something like that. [02:12:31.620 – 02:12:36.840] And it wasn't that I was, was deceitful or lying. [02:12:36.840 – 02:12:47.900] I was unable because, I mean, I had all kinds of entanglements and affairs and marriages and romances and just [02:12:47.900 – 02:12:48.900] on and on. [02:12:48.900 – 02:12:53.120] But I never had a genuinely committed relationship. [02:12:53.120 – 02:12:57.100] And it wasn't that I consciously withheld. [02:12:57.100 – 02:13:07.940] I was unable to have a committed relationship because what I gained from this in terms of a defect of character was

[02:13:07.940 – 02:13:12.720] an inability to, uh, let people into my life- Mm-hmm … [02:13:12.720 – 02:13:13.560] and particularly women. [02:13:13.560 – 02:13:14.260] The… [02:13:14.260 – 02:13:16.009] And so I would always… [02:13:16.009 – 02:13:25.920] You know, if you looked at me, what you saw, you'd see a wide-open guy that looks like he's just madly in love, but underneath there was always a little something held back. [02:13:25.920 – 02:13:26.669] Mm. [02:13:26.669 – 02:13:27.860] A little something held back. [02:13:27.860 – 02:13:31.600] And when there's something held back, nothing's gonna happen. [02:13:31.600 – 02:13:32.080] Right. [02:13:32.080 – 02:13:34.940] A lot of stuff will happen, but nothing real will happen.

[02:13:34.940 – 02:13:39.960] And so these were, were kind of troubling things that started to come out. [02:13:39.960 – 02:13:46.360] A little bit difficult when, when, uh, when, when you start dealing with these things and they get close to home. [02:13:46.360 – 02:13:48.520] There were tons of others. [02:13:48.520 – 02:13:55.620] But I think, I give this illustration, you can sort of see what I'm talking about, that what we're doing is getting down to causes and conditions. [02:13:55.620 – 02:14:02.780] What is it that interferes with my ability to function and participate in life, you know, and to take, take, take real part in stuff?

[02:14:02.780 – 02:14:10.200] And i- any, anybody, any, any comments or anything like that, you, you're welcome anytime. [02:14:10.200 – 02:14:16.220] I haven't really stopped and given any opportunity for it, but that's, that's true to, true to the species. [02:14:16.220 – 02:14:18.980] Thank God. [02:14:18.980 – 02:14:19.520] Yeah. [02:14:19.520 – 02:14:27.880] Uh, well, I'll give you one other one, uh, just for the heck of it. [02:14:27.880 – 02:14:32.900] Religion. [02:14:32.900 – 02:14:38.079] Oh, bless you, Tony. [02:14:38.079 – 02:14:41.620] I was only gonna put one more. [02:14:41.620 – 02:14:45.820] You never know. [02:14:45.820 – 02:14:46.800] I might get inspired. [02:14:46.800 – 02:14:47.340] I could… [02:14:47.340 – 02:14:54.220] Um, yeah, I had some real resentments at, uh, uh, with, with, toward organized religion.

[02:14:54.220 – 02:15:04.680] That, those early encounters in that church, they'd really traumatized me because it was, it was one of those extremely demonstrative [02:15:04.680 – 02:15:06.180] kinds of churches that… [02:15:06.180 – 02:15:09.980] I mean, I, I won't go into vivid detail because I don't, I don't want to get bashing. [02:15:09.980 – 02:15:16.860] But, but it just, those had a lot of noise and clatter and confusion and stuff. [02:15:16.860 – 02:15:20.540] And as a little kid, that really rattled my cage. [02:15:20.540 – 02:15:22.060] I couldn't figure that. [02:15:22.060 – 02:15:23.340] I couldn't figure out what that was about.

[02:15:23.340 – 02:15:25.000] I mean, it just looked bizarre to me. [02:15:25.000 – 02:15:35.240] And, uh, and so I just sorta shut down on that and started to disbelieve and then developed anger [02:15:35.240 – 02:15:35.740] about that. [02:15:35.740 – 02:15:37.580] You know, developed anger. [02:15:37.580 – 02:15:39.140] You know, that was the way I resolved it. [02:15:39.140 – 02:15:39.960] I was just sort of… [02:15:39.960 – 02:15:44.399] had a, a kind of a ongoing resentment about organized religion. [02:15:44.399 – 02:15:50.100] And, uh, the cause was that, that, uh, the behavior. [02:15:50.100 – 02:15:58.300] I didn't understand it, which led to not believing it. [02:15:58.300 – 02:16:06.880] And, uh, and the, uh, the guilt that was associated with it was big time.

[02:16:06.880 – 02:16:11.960] And so resentment just kind of grew out of that kind of frame of mind about that. [02:16:11.960 – 02:16:13.640] And that is scary. [02:16:13.640 – 02:16:16.280] And that's, and that's happening with a preschool kid. [02:16:16.280 – 02:16:20.070] That was when that first stuff started, and then it lasted for a long, long time. [02:16:20.070 – 02:16:24.370] And it affected, uh, you know… [02:16:24.370 – 02:16:34.420] Well, it affected my entire life because I'm carrying around, particularly in those early [02:16:34.420 – 02:16:39.220] years, I'm carrying around feelings that are s- frightening to have. [02:16:39.220 – 02:16:42.200] And, and so there's a whole lot of covering up.

[02:16:42.200 – 02:16:44.400] Those are frightening things to deal with. [02:16:44.400 – 02:16:50.060] Uh, affected my, my, uh, acceptance of others. [02:16:50.060 – 02:17:00.596] It affected my, um- Relationship with any kind of, uh, a [02:17:00.596 – 02:17:01.836] helping kind of thing. [02:17:01.836 – 02:17:04.836] And what'd I do? [02:17:04.836 – 02:17:09.296] Well, it varied a lot, you know. [02:17:09.296 – 02:17:13.876] You know, I would either be, for a while, would be just be openly critical. [02:17:13.876 – 02:17:23.216] Just refuse to discuss. [02:17:23.216 – 02:17:30.356] Wouldn't listen to anybody who ever tried to talk with me about it. [02:17:30.356 – 02:17:36.816] So stuff like that. [02:17:36.816 – 02:17:46.816] I just got loaded down with that whole business, where there should've been a source of some peace and comfort and stuff, to form some real principles and ideals

[02:17:46.816 – 02:17:47.576] about life. [02:17:47.576 – 02:17:53.536] That was an empty space in life, and so I had to deal d- d- d- that one was th- there. [02:17:53.536 – 02:17:57.456] That was a tough one to start making amends to something like that. [02:17:57.456 – 02:18:00.556] So ton of stuff that, that goes in. [02:18:00.556 – 02:18:03.896] Enough said on, uh, on this thing. [02:18:03.896 – 02:18:06.746] When I got through with that… [02:18:06.746 – 02:18:11.236] Now this one takes in the second inventory. [02:18:11.236 – 02:18:19.256] That first one didn't have the form, you know, of starting to break down and identify specific things.

[02:18:19.256 – 02:18:23.136] The first one was more like that cathartic opening up. [02:18:23.136 – 02:18:30.636] And of the two, I would rate the first one more valuable in terms of immediate benefit. [02:18:30.636 – 02:18:36.456] Because what it did was give me that solid foundation upon which to work. [02:18:36.456 – 02:18:38.356] Tremendously important. [02:18:38.356 – 02:18:49.016] And then this follow-up with, uh, starting to put some, some, uh, clarity about those things, identifying those conditions [02:18:49.016 – 02:18:53.456] that, that sort of shape my behavior, about shape how I work. [02:18:53.456 – 02:19:03.756] I, I either read or heard or both somewhere that we alcoholics are just like anybody

[02:19:03.756 – 02:19:04.216] else. [02:19:04.216 – 02:19:06.416] We're not a different species. [02:19:06.416 – 02:19:10.316] We're not better or worse or whatever. [02:19:10.316 – 02:19:11.436] We're just human beings. [02:19:11.436 – 02:19:20.936] We're like every other human in that we have the same kinds of drives, impulses, and urges that any human has. [02:19:20.936 – 02:19:27.916] The only difference is that ours are filtered through that, those defects of character. [02:19:27.916 – 02:19:38.276] And when they come through that, those defects of character, what they do is get exaggerated so that every human being needs shelter, [02:19:38.276 – 02:19:48.276] you know, every human being needs love, but we wind up feeling an inordinate need for more, better, bigger.

[02:19:48.276 – 02:19:56.496] You know, so that everything gets filtered through that and causes distorted relationships with everybody that I know. [02:19:56.496 – 02:20:06.716] And, uh, so this thing sets the, the tone for where I start deal with, with those causes and conditions [02:20:06.716 – 02:20:08.776] and become ready to take some action on it. [02:20:08.776 – 02:20:11.836] I know when… [02:20:11.836 – 02:20:21.956] I don't think I've ever worked with anybody in doing four steps that didn't find it to be extremely important, [02:20:21.956 – 02:20:22.976] extremely important. [02:20:22.976 – 02:20:25.516] I mean, where you really sit, getting down and doing the work.

[02:20:25.516 – 02:20:35.856] It's very, very rare that somebody sort of sees that as a no-brainer because it really does push you into the place where we live, and it's got a lot of the keys to the freedom [02:20:35.856 – 02:20:36.536] that comes. [02:20:36.536 – 02:20:42.576] You start to get into the cause and conditions, understand what it is that makes me operate the way that I do. [02:20:42.576 – 02:20:46.236] And we'll get through this. [02:20:46.236 – 02:20:54.476] It follows up with a, a not too thrilling prospect. [02:20:54.476 – 02:20:54.676] Yeah. [02:20:54.676 – 02:21:04.716] Now I was a guy, one of the, one of the characteristics that I developed in these, in, in these many things was a

[02:21:04.716 – 02:21:06.456] real sense of isolation. [02:21:06.456 – 02:21:10.396] Uh, it's like this thing with, with, with, with, with, with my mother. [02:21:10.396 – 02:21:15.916] I developed that thing of being shut off from other people. [02:21:15.916 – 02:21:25.916] Now, I made a lot of noise, got into a lot of yakety yak and was the life of the party and all that kind of junk, but all of that was to cover up, [02:21:25.916 – 02:21:33.076] to cover up those kinds of things that, uh, that, uh, that were really going on. [02:21:33.076 – 02:21:35.796] And so I was always an isolated kind of guy.

[02:21:35.796 – 02:21:43.156] And when I got through with inventory, the first one and, and everyone ever did, it got a little easier with the next two. [02:21:43.156 – 02:21:45.196] But that first one- [02:21:45.931 – 02:21:49.591] When I got through with it, I didn't wanna do a fifth step. [02:21:49.591 – 02:21:55.731] I had no real interest in doin' it, but I had a major league need to do it. [02:21:55.731 – 02:21:57.371] Major league need. [02:21:57.371 – 02:22:07.891] And, uh, I don't know, somethin' about just havin' all of that awareness that just seemed to come on me suddenly,

[02:22:07.891 – 02:22:10.951] 'cause I never had stopped and thought about stuff like that. [02:22:10.951 – 02:22:13.331] This was all new information. [02:22:13.331 – 02:22:23.351] And when I started comin' up with all of this, this, this kind of awareness, general awareness of what my life was about, I [02:22:23.351 – 02:22:24.571] had to talk to somebody. [02:22:24.571 – 02:22:26.111] I mean, I just had to. [02:22:26.111 – 02:22:27.531] It wasn't that I wanted to. [02:22:27.531 – 02:22:33.731] And, uh, so I started shopping for, um, somebody to do it with. [02:22:33.731 – 02:22:37.691] Well, there, there were quite a few choices available. [02:22:37.691 – 02:22:42.731] Where I was, there were, there were 6,000 people locked up in the same cage.

[02:22:42.731 – 02:22:49.931] I think any of them would've been more than happy to, to let me tell them about all this stuff. [02:22:49.931 – 02:22:55.031] But somehow I just wasn't overly motivated to open up with too many of those guys. [02:22:55.031 – 02:22:57.151] In fact, none. [02:22:57.151 – 02:23:04.171] And, and, uh, staff were even more, uh, out of consideration. [02:23:04.171 – 02:23:04.931] I, there was no… [02:23:04.931 – 02:23:14.291] I mean, even though it was a, a fairly large and intense community, there was nobody that I was willin' to open up with and, and really let them know who I was, for the first time in my life.

[02:23:14.291 – 02:23:19.931] And so I went around for a couple of months lookin' for Mr. [02:23:19.931 – 02:23:20.631] Wonderful. [02:23:20.631 – 02:23:24.091] And, uh, he was hard to find. [02:23:24.091 – 02:23:31.871] There, there was one guy in the group, now I'm, I'm about nine months in the group when I do that inventory, and nine months in recovery. [02:23:31.871 – 02:23:39.231] And, uh, there was one guy that I had a really good, solid relationship. [02:23:39.231 – 02:23:40.451] One guy. [02:23:40.451 – 02:23:41.751] One guy that I trusted. [02:23:41.751 – 02:23:44.191] And I, I kept… [02:23:44.191 – 02:23:45.671] I didn't call him sponsor. [02:23:45.671 – 02:23:52.511] He really was a sponsor, but you know, a, a guy locked up the same as me, I just couldn't bring myself to, to call him a sponsor.

[02:23:52.511 – 02:23:55.011] Just, I just let it function that way. [02:23:55.011 – 02:24:01.971] And so I kept talkin' with him about various people, and you know, to, to talk them over. [02:24:01.971 – 02:24:05.051] And everybody we'd come up with, I'd dismiss them promptly. [02:24:05.051 – 02:24:14.771] And, uh, after about two months, it finally dawned on me that I'm talkin' to the only guy I can talk to. [02:24:14.771 – 02:24:19.081] That's real rocket science thinkin', you know that . [02:24:19.081 – 02:24:28.591] So I finally ask him, and he said, "I thought you'd never ask." And, uh, so it says in the, in the book that we need to be very thoughtful about how we do this.

[02:24:28.591 – 02:24:32.071] It also says we might wanna do it with our wives or somebody. [02:24:32.071 – 02:24:35.211] I, I have never recommended that to anybody. [02:24:35.211 – 02:24:41.031] Even though it's in the book, I'm gonna leave it in there, because ain't no way I'd… [02:24:41.031 – 02:24:51.191] Um, so it says we ought to be thoughtful and, and give serious consideration about how we do this, [02:24:51.191 – 02:24:51.791] so I did. [02:24:51.791 – 02:25:01.991] And what we did was pull up what looked like a park bench on a prison yard, with 6,000 yo-yos wanderin' around,

[02:25:01.991 – 02:25:05.731] and I did my fifth step sittin' out in the middle of that parade. [02:25:05.731 – 02:25:09.971] And it couldn't have been any better if I'd have done it in the Sistine Chapel. [02:25:09.971 – 02:25:19.971] Uh, because it had to do with one human bein' who'd been locked up for his entire life with those kind of emotions that just absolutely imprisoned [02:25:19.971 – 02:25:22.711] me, those kind of shames, and feelings, and stuff. [02:25:22.711 – 02:25:24.031] And I opened up. [02:25:24.031 – 02:25:34.031] And, and what I did was share with him, with as much depth as I could reach, exactly who I was, and what my life was,

[02:25:34.031 – 02:25:36.171] and what my inventory had said. [02:25:36.171 – 02:25:46.191] When we got through with that, that man knew me better than any human on this planet, because I totally shared with him [02:25:46.191 – 02:25:50.511] who I was, my fears, my anger, my shame. [02:25:50.511 – 02:25:51.451] All that stuff. [02:25:51.451 – 02:25:53.231] Shared that with that human being. [02:25:53.231 – 02:25:57.251] He was the first human to ever know anything like that about me. [02:25:57.251 – 02:25:59.491] He knew more about me than my mother did. [02:25:59.491 – 02:26:04.721] And, and, uh, when we got through, uh, I, I… [02:26:04.721 – 02:26:07.931] My experience was exactly what it talks about in the book.

[02:26:07.931 – 02:26:09.831] I was a man freed. [02:26:09.831 – 02:26:12.191] I was absolutely freed. [02:26:12.191 – 02:26:18.131] And, and I, I felt, I felt just the exultation. [02:26:18.131 – 02:26:20.371] I just felt the freedom of release. [02:26:20.371 – 02:26:29.331] And when we finished that thing up and went chargin' back to, um, to, to, to quarters, and did exactly what it says in the book. [02:26:29.331 – 02:26:37.751] We take, take down the book and take a look at those first five proposals, and ask myself the question: How am I doin' so far? [02:26:37.751 – 02:26:39.451] Is it sound?

[02:26:39.451 – 02:26:40.391] Is it solid? [02:26:40.391 – 02:26:41.571] Is it good work? [02:26:41.571 – 02:26:46.131] And I had to say that it was the best I was capable of doing. [02:26:46.131 – 02:26:47.491] And it really was. [02:26:47.491 – 02:26:51.131] And the experience was as good as I could have imagined. [02:26:51.131 – 02:26:56.431] And I absolutely, I came out of that a, a, as a, as a different man. [02:26:56.431 – 02:26:58.051] In, in, in the… [02:26:58.051 – 02:27:03.491] Because what this constituted for me was a real turning point. [02:27:03.491 – 02:27:13.681] It was like the fulcrum of the program, where I moved from this kinda lost soul with no real sense of stability, or strength, or real well-defined purpose.

[02:27:13.681 – 02:27:22.091] I changed from that, and I became a, a real member of Alcoholics Anonymous in that process of the, of the inventory. [02:27:22.091 – 02:27:24.211] Never wavered on that. [02:27:24.211 – 02:27:26.491] I've never wavered on the fact that I'm an alcoholic. [02:27:26.491 – 02:27:31.331] I've never wavered on the fact that I'm a real member of Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:27:31.331 – 02:27:34.271] Didn't sign anything, didn't tell anybody. [02:27:34.271 – 02:27:35.591] That's a private matter. [02:27:35.591 – 02:27:37.391] That, that… [02:27:37.391 – 02:27:40.231] It's just, it's the easiest fellowship in the world to join. [02:27:40.231 – 02:27:42.791] I'm a member if I say I am.

[02:27:42.791 – 02:27:44.011] I don't have to tell anybody. [02:27:44.011 – 02:27:45.571] It's a private matter. [02:27:45.571 – 02:27:50.243] And I'm a member to either quit or take a drink, whichever comes first. [02:27:50.243 – 02:27:53.383] Yeah, it's the easiest one to quit from, too, that, that I know of. [02:27:53.383 – 02:28:00.163] So I was in, uh, and, and I was a solid guy getting started in, in a new life. [02:28:00.163 – 02:28:01.463] The, um… [02:28:01.463 – 02:28:09.083] I tell you the, the, it sort of poses a quandary. [02:28:09.083 – 02:28:16.923] You know, that, you know, up to now, y- I'd, I had done fairly well in getting a good spiritual foundation in those first three.

[02:28:16.923 – 02:28:25.903] Had a truly defining experience, a, a, a significant experience in that fourth and fifth step. [02:28:25.903 – 02:28:32.443] And then what follows is a little bit, a little bit scary, uh, in a way. [02:28:32.443 – 02:28:42.603] When I, when I got to six and seven, I, I really thought, I, I thought those steps were essentially filler [02:28:42.603 – 02:28:44.823] material, you know, is what it really seemed like. [02:28:44.823 – 02:28:46.633] That I, I… [02:28:46.633 – 02:28:54.043] It sounded so much like a rehash of two and three, thought, "What are we doing?" You know, because I did not see the big deal in it.

[02:28:54.043 – 02:29:02.143] And some of it I kind of wrote off, you know, when it's talking about being ready to have God remove all these defects of character. [02:29:02.143 – 02:29:12.163] And I still had some, even though I had seen some of the misery exposed in full screen, I still had some real reservations about, [02:29:12.163 – 02:29:15.243] you know, how much I really wanted to change. [02:29:15.243 – 02:29:19.543] Uh, I did wanna get better, but, but not too good. [02:29:19.543 – 02:29:21.423] I, I did, I really did not want… [02:29:21.423 – 02:29:23.963] I, I was scared to death I'm gonna get struck pure.

[02:29:23.963 – 02:29:26.883] And, and I didn't have any real interest in that. [02:29:26.883 – 02:29:30.683] I d- I was young and had potential to be frisky. [02:29:30.683 – 02:29:36.343] I wasn't, wasn't at the moment, uh, 'cause I wasn't interested in being frisky in there. [02:29:36.343 – 02:29:41.283] But, uh, you never know which role you're gonna play. [02:29:41.283 – 02:29:51.543] I- So anyway, I, you know, there, even, [02:29:51.543 – 02:29:58.383] uh, excusing the surroundings, it, it's a, a real issue, you know, about how good I wanna get. [02:29:58.383 – 02:30:05.043] And, and I, I did have fears that I was gonna get so, so good, I'd just be a bore for the rest of my life.

[02:30:05.043 – 02:30:08.212] And, uh, I sure wanted to do it. [02:30:08.212 – 02:30:18.063] When I started to understand what that step said, that entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. [02:30:18.063 – 02:30:25.143] And, uh, then when the reality started to set in, message became pretty clear. [02:30:25.143 – 02:30:30.983] And what it constituted for me was a major decision point. [02:30:30.983 – 02:30:35.243] That, okay, buddy, you've taken a look at it. [02:30:35.243 – 02:30:44.203] You understand now that there's a whole lot more to you than drinking, and, and that you either wanna get better or you don't.

[02:30:44.203 – 02:30:46.443] And that's really what it came down to. [02:30:46.443 – 02:30:48.643] And I was faced with that decision. [02:30:48.643 – 02:30:52.283] And, and, and it is a huge decision point, uh, certainly for me. [02:30:52.283 – 02:30:53.423] Right. [02:30:53.423 – 02:30:54.023] Thanks, Don. [02:30:54.023 – 02:30:54.563] Yeah. [02:30:54.563 – 02:31:00.223] The, uh, of whether I wanna get well or I don't. [02:31:00.223 – 02:31:02.823] I've taken a look at the defects. [02:31:02.823 – 02:31:06.923] I've taken a look at what this illness looks like, what the behavior looks like. [02:31:06.923 – 02:31:10.403] The issue is, do you wanna get well or don't you? [02:31:10.403 – 02:31:14.003] Do you wanna change or don't you?

[02:31:14.003 – 02:31:19.622] Do you wanna get rid of the things that you drag around or don't you? [02:31:19.622 – 02:31:25.663] Are you willing to take a stand for something that you believe in? [02:31:25.663 – 02:31:30.183] Are you willing to say no when yes would be so easy? [02:31:30.183 – 02:31:40.383] And those were all things that were just kind of circling the field with me about whether I was really and truly ready to make that move. [02:31:40.383 – 02:31:41.343] Yeah. [02:31:41.343 – 02:31:47.863] I, I'll tell you something I've run into in, in, in particular, you know, like doing, doing, taking folks through, through the, the steps, through, through the book.

[02:31:47.863 – 02:31:52.743] I t- I tell you so- something that, that I've run into. [02:31:52.743 – 02:32:03.003] When, when I, when I'm working with somebody and we get to a point where we lose them, it's almost always at this point. [02:32:03.003 – 02:32:05.523] It's almost always at this point. [02:32:05.523 – 02:32:15.613] And, and I, I, you know, I think what it is is that it's I, I, I s- I sh- Some people just love to talk about their last operation. [02:32:15.613 – 02:32:18.843] I mean, they'll just romance you to death with that stuff.

[02:32:18.843 – 02:32:26.203] And relive it in, in living color, ad nauseam, you know? [02:32:26.203 – 02:32:31.723] I, I had a guy, a guy that I sponsored for a long time. [02:32:31.723 – 02:32:36.993] He's, I think he's the only guy that I have ever terminated sponsorship because of no progress. [02:32:36.993 – 02:32:39.593] I sponsored him nine years and- [02:32:39.828 – 02:32:42.928] I saw no visible signs of progress. [02:32:42.928 – 02:32:43.648] None. [02:32:43.648 – 02:32:46.908] Except through the fifth step. [02:32:46.908 – 02:32:49.107] Now, he was good at that. [02:32:49.107 – 02:32:54.928] Well, I don't know how good he was, but he was extremely busy at that.

[02:32:54.928 – 02:32:58.647] And, and that guy's done more fifth steps than a good guy. [02:32:58.647 – 02:32:59.828] He could do them in his sleep. [02:32:59.828 – 02:33:04.008] Uh, he, he, he called me one day, he said, "I really got it this time. [02:33:04.008 – 02:33:06.368] I'm ready for that fifth step. [02:33:06.368 – 02:33:14.128] Will you do it?" So I, I just decided to just give him as much time as he wanted to do that fifth step. [02:33:14.128 – 02:33:18.868] And I'll just show you how bizarre it can get sometime. [02:33:18.868 – 02:33:22.648] He talked for seven hours.

[02:33:22.648 – 02:33:23.228] Oh, my. [02:33:23.228 – 02:33:24.368] And I listened. [02:33:24.368 – 02:33:26.368] I, well, I was there anyway. [02:33:26.368 – 02:33:33.288] I, I, I listened enough to track what he was talking about, and I hadn't heard it, but about six or eight times. [02:33:33.288 – 02:33:35.748] So he finished that. [02:33:35.748 – 02:33:36.848] Well, he didn't finish. [02:33:36.848 – 02:33:37.628] He just quit. [02:33:37.628 – 02:33:48.368] And, and, uh, he said, "Well, what do you think?" I said, "Well, that was quite nice, [02:33:48.368 – 02:33:54.428] but unfortunately, it had nothing to do with the fifth step." That poor boy just couldn't get it.

[02:33:54.428 – 02:34:04.588] You know, of, of, of what this is to acknowledge wrongs, and to, to share with somebody the exact nature of my wrong [02:34:04.588 – 02:34:08.088] and, and, uh, and to be ready to do something about it. [02:34:08.088 – 02:34:11.688] This guy loved to get to that point. [02:34:11.688 – 02:34:14.168] You know, so he could dramatize the condition. [02:34:14.168 – 02:34:14.928] He loved that. [02:34:14.928 – 02:34:25.148] But when it came to a point of making any kind of action beyond that to get into, to real restoration, to real recovery, not [02:34:25.148 – 02:34:25.808] willing to do it.

[02:34:25.808 – 02:34:27.248] Yeah. [02:34:27.248 – 02:34:27.448] He… [02:34:27.448 – 02:34:28.858] Well, I'll tell you one more thing about him. [02:34:28.858 – 02:34:29.968] He called me one time. [02:34:29.968 – 02:34:34.208] He said, "You're gonna be real proud of me." And I said- … [02:34:34.208 – 02:34:34.948] "Well, that's good. [02:34:34.948 – 02:34:36.088] What? [02:34:36.088 – 02:34:43.068] Why am I gonna be proud?" He said, "I made some amends." I said, "Well, hallelujah. [02:34:43.068 – 02:34:44.308] Tell, tell me about it. [02:34:44.308 – 02:34:53.628] How did it happen?" And what happened, th- this fellow was absolutely convinced that the world owed him a living, and he was gonna collect, uh, something for nothing.

[02:34:53.628 – 02:34:58.108] And, uh, so he explained to me what happened. [02:34:58.108 – 02:35:08.208] Two policemen came to his door, armed, to collect something that had to be paid, [02:35:08.208 – 02:35:08.948] and he paid it. [02:35:08.948 – 02:35:19.028] I didn't even say, "Good try." You know, I, I said, "Man, you're [02:35:19.028 – 02:35:22.168] sick." I go, but that was… [02:35:22.168 – 02:35:28.628] Anyway, some, some people just love to get into that romancing the problem. [02:35:28.628 – 02:35:32.828] And if you don't move on with this, that's what that is. [02:35:32.828 – 02:35:39.808] You know, if you just took this part, what that would do would make you a victim.

[02:35:39.808 – 02:35:50.128] And so what you could do would be to agonize over your misfortune in the world and what a victim of circumstance you are, and all that kind of stuff, if the actions [02:35:50.128 – 02:35:50.848] don't follow. [02:35:50.848 – 02:35:56.768] And so, you know, once that starts to get out, the question is, do you want to get better? [02:35:56.768 – 02:35:59.168] Do you want to change? [02:35:59.168 – 02:36:07.888] And fortunately, at eight, start to develop some faith and, and courage instead of fear. [02:36:07.888 – 02:36:10.648] Start to develop some integrity. [02:36:10.648 – 02:36:16.868] And lo and behold, what happens is that the, the, the scale starts to level out, eh?

[02:36:16.868 – 02:36:19.628] And then sometimes when they're, they're… [02:36:19.628 – 02:36:21.368] we just go to the total extreme. [02:36:21.368 – 02:36:28.888] Sometimes I get so full of what's happening here that I can barely contain myself, and it just goes way over like this, you know? [02:36:28.888 – 02:36:30.308] And I just wanna fly, man. [02:36:30.308 – 02:36:33.748] I, I just feel so good that I can barely contain myself. [02:36:33.748 – 02:36:38.447] And, and that's what this, this is, is this process of recovery to me. [02:36:38.447 – 02:36:43.788] Is that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm ready to have God remove these defects of character.

[02:36:43.788 – 02:36:53.757] And then as I take the actions, you know, and do that, the, the prayer, you know, where, uh, where, uh, ask for these, these, sh- to, to get rid of these shortcuts. [02:36:53.757 – 02:36:57.088] You know, some people debate sometimes about, uh… [02:36:57.088 – 02:37:05.068] Again, I think sh- Kent hit it, too, that about the difference between defects of character and, and omissions. [02:37:05.068 – 02:37:10.848] Some people say, Bill just didn't want to be redundant, so he used different words to say the same thing.

[02:37:10.848 – 02:37:20.988] I t- I tell you what, what it, what makes sense to me about it, is that, that a defect of character is that [02:37:20.988 – 02:37:27.288] thing that produces that behavior, and it's, and it's evidenced by what you see me do. [02:37:27.288 – 02:37:29.928] That's the evidence of the defect of character. [02:37:29.928 – 02:37:32.328] The behavior reflects that defect. [02:37:32.328 – 02:37:36.328] Shortcomings are what I don't do. [02:37:36.328 – 02:37:38.488] They're what I don't do. [02:37:38.488 – 02:37:42.668] And, and so it's two different things that there's… [02:37:42.668 – 02:37:47.208] In, in the Bible, they call it sins of omission and sins of commission.

[02:37:47.208 – 02:37:54.508] And, and, and here, I think that's what we're talking about, is that there are many things that defects were the behavior. [02:37:54.508 – 02:37:55.848] That's what anybody saw. [02:37:55.848 – 02:37:59.888] There was a lot that nobody saw, and that's what I didn't do. [02:37:59.888 – 02:38:01.448] That's what I failed to do. [02:38:01.448 – 02:38:11.648] You know, that when I started looking at, um, the other side of this kind of situation here, I was, I told one side [02:38:11.648 – 02:38:11.988] of it. [02:38:11.988 – 02:38:16.448] You know, when I first came in the program, I was like a lot of people.

[02:38:16.448 – 02:38:18.628] I never hurt anybody but myself. [02:38:18.628 – 02:38:19.128] Yeah. [02:38:19.128 – 02:38:20.328] Yeah. [02:38:20.328 – 02:38:22.078] Never hurt the family. [02:38:22.078 – 02:38:24.688] At least I had the decency to be gone, you know? [02:38:24.688 – 02:38:26.368] I didn't hurt them. [02:38:26.368 – 02:38:27.468] They didn't know where I was. [02:38:27.468 – 02:38:32.248] All I did was de- deprive a mother of a son. [02:38:32.248 – 02:38:36.388] She didn't know who, she didn't know if I was alive or dead. [02:38:36.388 – 02:38:37.888] She had no clue. [02:38:37.888 – 02:38:43.388] Now, how much more cruel punishment could you put on somebody? [02:38:43.388 – 02:38:46.212] than to take away the most important thing in the world to them.

[02:38:46.212 – 02:38:54.372] And so a whole bunch into both sides of that ledger with, with, with, with what I do and what I fail to do. [02:38:54.372 – 02:39:01.692] And so this tran- transaction was to become ready to have God remove all these defects of character. [02:39:01.692 – 02:39:05.852] And, and, and I'm, now I'm not a mystic type of guy. [02:39:05.852 – 02:39:08.152] You know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a pretty pragmatic fella. [02:39:08.152 – 02:39:16.572] And, and I believe the answer to that prayer is, "Okay, move on to step eight." I think that's the answer to the prayer.

[02:39:16.572 – 02:39:20.092] It's not some pluck away, you know, some kind of thing like that. [02:39:20.092 – 02:39:21.172] It's a plan of action. [02:39:21.172 – 02:39:31.472] And what we have here is, is we have a God-inspired program of living, which if I take the actions, amazing things will happen, [02:39:31.472 – 02:39:32.372] and do. [02:39:32.372 – 02:39:36.152] And, uh, so this transition, I think… [02:39:36.152 – 02:39:38.572] Uh, I, I say this, then we'll take a little break. [02:39:38.572 – 02:39:45.102] The, um, this transaction to me is, is a critically important one. [02:39:45.102 – 02:39:55.752] And, and, and what happens, like I was saying earlier, that I, I think the best I can tell, when I lose people, even

[02:39:55.752 – 02:40:01.312] if they don't go out, what they do is opt for an easier, simpler way. [02:40:01.312 – 02:40:04.012] There is an easier, softer way. [02:40:04.012 – 02:40:05.872] You, you don't have to go through these steps. [02:40:05.872 – 02:40:07.492] There's an easier, softer way. [02:40:07.492 – 02:40:13.472] And an awful lot of people get to this juncture, just like my guy that did the seven, seven-hour fifth step. [02:40:13.472 – 02:40:20.132] A lot of guys get to this juncture, and they're either afraid of change or, or just don't have the guts to do it.

[02:40:20.132 – 02:40:21.392] I don't know what. [02:40:21.392 – 02:40:22.192] Or don't… [02:40:22.192 – 02:40:25.132] Fear of, of, of getting too good like I was. [02:40:25.132 – 02:40:35.192] But a lot of people will pull away and sh- and I don't know if it's a deliberate decision, but will just sort of drift in to going to meetings [02:40:35.192 – 02:40:41.492] with all kinds of frequency in the notion that the meetings are the solution. [02:40:41.492 – 02:40:43.072] Mm-hmm. [02:40:43.072 – 02:40:44.432] And it's, it's a trap. [02:40:44.432 – 02:40:45.252] You know, it's a trap. [02:40:45.252 – 02:40:47.292] It, it's an easier, softer way. [02:40:47.292 – 02:40:53.551] It's, it's what I call pit stop AA, where we start seeing AA as some place to go and get what I want.

[02:40:53.551 – 02:41:00.741] Well, I would submit to you that that's a weird way to treat a self-centered condition- … [02:41:00.741 – 02:41:03.132] is by making all the focus on me. [02:41:03.132 – 02:41:05.192] Yeah, I just don't believe that'll work. [02:41:05.192 – 02:41:07.832] And, and so that's attractive. [02:41:07.832 – 02:41:09.732] That's a very attractive thing. [02:41:09.732 – 02:41:19.672] It beats what goes in to making amends and to going back and making things right if what you're looking for is just an easy way out. [02:41:19.672 – 02:41:23.442] And so I, I think that's one reason that it sort of shifts into that.

[02:41:23.442 – 02:41:32.752] And if you don't think that's popular- Do a quick nose count of where we function. [02:41:32.752 – 02:41:42.752] Do a quick nose count of, of around this country of, of, of how many real solid kind of, of gung ho, purposeful, [02:41:42.752 – 02:41:47.672] three legacy groups there are as compared to little places where folks just meet. [02:41:47.672 – 02:41:56.372] So it's a very seductive trap, and I don't know if w- I don't know if you can sell it. [02:41:56.372 – 02:41:58.632] I, I don't know what, what it takes.

[02:41:58.632 – 02:42:06.852] I know that, uh, you know, the, the stuff I've been doing in, in working with people in the book does it better than anything I've ever seen. [02:42:06.852 – 02:42:10.252] But there is an easier, softer way. [02:42:10.252 – 02:42:12.552] Unfortunately, it tends to lead to drinking. [02:42:12.552 – 02:42:22.592] That most people I've seen who opt out of the recovery process and into the sort of whole pattern, it's usually [02:42:22.592 – 02:42:31.232] absolutely limited in terms of quality recovery and most of the time in terms of longevity of recovery.

[02:42:31.232 – 02:42:33.652] It just tends to be a kind of a… [02:42:33.652 – 02:42:41.392] You know, it stands to reason that if you get into a place and your only agenda is go get what you want, I mean, come on. [02:42:41.392 – 02:42:44.752] It, it just stands to reason that sooner or later you're gonna get saturated. [02:42:44.752 – 02:42:49.432] I mean, how many times can you talk about grad- gratitude and how many languages? [02:42:49.432 – 02:42:50.892] You know? [02:42:50.892 – 02:42:56.812] And so naturally it's gonna get, and it does, gets to a point where, yeah, oh, Jesus.

[02:42:56.812 – 02:42:57.792] We're on that again. [02:42:57.792 – 02:42:59.972] You know, we just talked about this three months ago. [02:42:59.972 – 02:43:00.931] Yeah. [02:43:00.931 – 02:43:02.912] Or you, Ivis is speaking again. [02:43:02.912 – 02:43:03.571] Good God. [02:43:03.571 – 02:43:05.052] Lock him up somewhere. [02:43:05.052 – 02:43:05.871] Put, put, put him away. [02:43:05.871 – 02:43:06.592] You know? [02:43:06.592 – 02:43:09.272] But it just stands to reason that's what's gonna happen. [02:43:09.272 – 02:43:19.392] But what we have to do is learn how to be a channel, you know, so that we're not just some place where we gather up, but we really open up and become a flow so that we're reaching out

[02:43:19.392 – 02:43:21.631] and getting back into the mainstream of life. [02:43:21.631 – 02:43:27.092] So anyway, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll bop around that neighborhood a little bit. [02:43:27.092 – 02:43:33.092] And, uh, so let's take a, take a little break and see you in a quarter hour or so, something like that. [02:43:36.419 – 02:43:41.239] Gonna change the pace a little and, and, and get into the askit basket. [02:43:41.239 – 02:43:42.959] You never know what you're gonna get. [02:43:42.959 – 02:43:45.758] It's always, uh… [02:43:45.758 – 02:43:51.919] I try to read it with my squinty little eyes. [02:43:51.919 – 02:43:54.319] Yeah, I've got, got something right here.

[02:43:54.319 – 02:43:56.039] That was written small. [02:43:56.039 – 02:43:57.199] Thank God. [02:43:57.199 – 02:44:01.139] Oh yeah, there's something on there. [02:44:01.139 – 02:44:02.799] Okay. [02:44:02.799 – 02:44:08.079] Not attending a lot of meetings due to life on life's terms. [02:44:08.079 – 02:44:09.999] Should I worry? [02:44:09.999 – 02:44:14.738] Qualified worry. [02:44:14.738 – 02:44:16.499] Yeah. [02:44:16.499 – 02:44:26.559] I would, I would go back to what I was talking about, about when somebody detours away from six and seven and gets to thinking that meetings are [02:44:26.559 – 02:44:27.439] the solution. [02:44:27.439 – 02:44:38.058] You know, what I would be looking at if I had a limited agenda would be solidifying a real home group where you could make a real commitment

[02:44:38.058 – 02:44:42.519] and not just some sort of shotgun approach, you know, to, to making a lot of meetings. [02:44:42.519 – 02:44:43.718] That, uh… [02:44:43.718 – 02:44:54.179] Now, some of that I qualify it only in the sense that if, if you're within the first year of sobriety, I, I think it's awfully important to make a lot of meetings [02:44:54.179 – 02:44:54.519] to… [02:44:54.519 – 02:45:01.619] Well, you wanna get acquainted with people, you wanna meet folks, you wanna have, uh, not a whole bunch of slack time, so there's a, there's a good rationale for that.

[02:45:01.619 – 02:45:12.138] But, but if you're somebody that's fairly well-established in recovery and just not able, uh, because of the, uh, current deal, my notion would be [02:45:12.138 – 02:45:22.179] w- as, as I'm a group guy, would be to identify a group where you can realistically make a commitment, but I think that commitment'll make up for, uh, for the [02:45:22.179 – 02:45:23.279] volume of meetings. [02:45:23.279 – 02:45:29.859] And, uh, if you get one or two a week at a, at a, at a place where it's an absolute commitment would be my notion of where to go.

[02:45:29.859 – 02:45:34.239] Uh, sometimes schedule's not gonna let us get to do everything we wanna do. [02:45:34.239 – 02:45:43.199] We'll just have to do the best we can with what we got, but the group is a great place to get the, the solidifying, the staying power that you need. [02:45:43.199 – 02:45:47.959] It's also a good place where people get to know you and you're not a stranger in a crowd. [02:45:47.959 – 02:45:52.459] It's where somebody can read it if the life on life's terms getting to you. [02:45:52.459 – 02:46:00.019] And so if you do that with a bunch of strangers, nobody's ever gonna say, "Hey, what's going on with you?" But if you get a group, you're gonna be a lot more likely to find that.

[02:46:00.019 – 02:46:02.679] So that, that'd be my, my suggestion there. [02:46:02.679 – 02:46:06.859] Are the things that interfere with… [02:46:06.859 – 02:46:16.879] Are the things that interfere with emotional sobriety [02:46:16.879 – 02:46:20.699] revealed to us in steps four and five? [02:46:20.699 – 02:46:27.219] I don't think automatically they, they are. [02:46:27.219 – 02:46:33.259] That– A lot of times they are, they're not gonna come under the heading of resentment or fear or something like that. [02:46:33.259 – 02:46:39.579] Yeah, you know, I th- I think you'll sort of get into the neighborhood, but to make a direct relationship… [02:46:39.579 – 02:46:48.499] Uh, some of the stuff we were talking about and, and at least the ones I laid out, uh, probably w- uh, some of them would not make the, the, the, uh, the inventory deal.

[02:46:48.499 – 02:46:56.979] Uh, yeah, I'd just take a look at those kinds of things and make your own list, but, but look at those kinds of things that I mentioned that interfere. [02:46:56.979 – 02:47:06.479] A lot of those are more tenth step kind of issues than they are fourth step 'cause it's a whole different level of intensity and, and thoroughness involved. [02:47:06.479 – 02:47:16.679] And so tenth step would be the place where I would, I would be taking a look at, uh, those things that are starting to interfere with, uh, good, sound, emotional sobriety.

[02:47:16.679 – 02:47:23.759] The question int- makes, makes the point that there is established sobriety that we're talking about. [02:47:23.759 – 02:47:28.139] And so I, I would look first to the tenth step and not, not, not the fourth. [02:47:28.139 – 02:47:31.739] Just one guy's opinion, naturally. [02:47:31.739 – 02:47:41.939] Um, now I can't give the credit on this. [02:47:41.939 – 02:47:44.659] I will only tell you that he talks funny. [02:47:44.659 – 02:47:52.519] Oh. [02:47:52.519 – 02:47:54.299] It, it's, it's… [02:47:54.299 – 02:47:59.039] Well, I'll just read it w- with the guy that talks funny's permission. [02:47:59.039 – 02:47:59.999] Nod, George. [02:47:59.999 – 02:48:01.379] Yeah, okay. [02:48:01.379 – 02:48:07.179] Yeah, some anonymous person.

[02:48:07.179 – 02:48:08.179] Uh… [02:48:08.179 – 02:48:11.789] Question basically is what is emotional sobriety? [02:48:11.789 – 02:48:16.439] And, uh, it's, it's a good question, really. [02:48:16.439 – 02:48:19.519] That, uh, emotional sobriety… [02:48:19.519 – 02:48:27.759] Bill's article gives, uh, you know, some pretty good information about it, uh, at least the way he was looking at it. [02:48:27.759 – 02:48:37.109] And, uh, and, and he was talking about it, the, things like balance, you know, that, that, that, that have to do with emotional sobriety. [02:48:37.109 – 02:48:45.179] Where, where you got a good, solid, uh, hold on this thing, and you're not caught into so many things that pull you off task.

[02:48:45.179 – 02:48:49.019] And, and, and he was caught up a lot in, um… [02:48:49.019 – 02:48:59.179] That message I got in it was that, that, that it was the concern about backing away from active helping people and getting [02:48:59.179 – 02:49:04.809] into too much of, of, of self-stuff is what I really read between the lines in it. [02:49:04.809 – 02:49:07.659] But, you know, emotional sobriety it, it's… [02:49:07.659 – 02:49:17.399] I, I, I think that personally that it would not be all that helpful to establish that as a new category of AA work.

[02:49:17.399 – 02:49:26.059] That it's a, it's a description of something that has to do with the quality of sobriety, and that's what Bill was taking off on, I think. [02:49:26.059 – 02:49:36.159] But the, uh, for th- It's like I said in the beginning, for the overwhelming majority of us, just diligent work, practicing the principles are gonna [02:49:36.159 – 02:49:37.178] take care of this stuff. [02:49:37.178 – 02:49:41.819] And, and there'll be times when we'll get off the beam a little bit. [02:49:41.819 – 02:49:49.969] You know, like he was talking about And Bill made that presentation in an article that, uh, I don't think he meant to write a new manual.

[02:49:49.969 – 02:49:54.709] You know, that what he was talking about doing was just sort of tuning up a side of the program. [02:49:54.709 – 02:50:06.389] I, I think where we'll s- we'll spend a good bit of time, but mainly just because of my own bias, is, uh, um, we, [02:50:06.389 – 02:50:13.569] we've got two more steps that deal with sort of the f- uh, healing process, you know, where we're, we're starting to get stuff going. [02:50:13.569 – 02:50:24.729] And then, then I think we make a very important deliberate change of course when we get into 10, 11, and 12, where

[02:50:24.729 – 02:50:34.809] we start moving away from an inordinate amount of self-focus and start to look at our, at, at our, our, our gains as coming from efforts we [02:50:34.809 – 02:50:35.589] make with others. [02:50:35.589 – 02:50:39.719] And so I'm, I'm always real pl- uh, often when I'm doing… [02:50:39.719 – 02:50:50.069] I'm not gonna do it this time, but often if I'm just making a talk on step, I get caught up in stuff and, and, and shortchange what I think is one of the most critically important [02:50:50.069 – 02:50:51.309] parts in the, in the program.

[02:50:51.309 – 02:51:00.029] And that's those steps where we start practicing this as a way of life with all the joys and rewards and, and benefits that come. [02:51:00.029 – 02:51:06.269] And, uh, so that's kind of a long kind of a ranging a- answer to that thing, George. [02:51:06.269 – 02:51:09.529] Um, but I, I think that's what he was getting at. [02:51:09.529 – 02:51:14.509] And the way he defines that in that article, uh, is, is, is certainly worthy of thought. [02:51:14.509 – 02:51:15.769] You know, that's for doggone sure. [02:51:15.769 – 02:51:25.889] And it's serious enough that a group of people have said, "Let's put a workshop together where we focus on this as an agenda item." And so, yeah,

[02:51:25.889 – 02:51:30.269] good, good investment of time, and, and it's a worthwhile thing. [02:51:30.269 – 02:51:36.849] Uh-oh. [02:51:36.849 – 02:51:44.649] Choosing to marry someone out of the rooms instead of someone in the rooms of AA. [02:51:44.649 – 02:51:44.989] Oh. [02:51:44.989 – 02:51:47.509] I say, amen. [02:51:47.509 – 02:51:51.619] Amen. [02:51:51.619 – 02:51:58.719] That's, uh… [02:51:58.719 – 02:51:58.739] That's… [02:51:58.739 – 02:52:00.089] That's just one guy's opinion. [02:52:00.089 – 02:52:09.889] But, but, uh, but, but it, it, it, it is one that I think is worthy of some serious consideration. [02:52:09.889 – 02:52:11.329] You know, there's, um… [02:52:11.329 – 02:52:18.809] Yeah, I think we've all run into the treatment center romances where it's gonna last forever, and does till next Friday.

[02:52:18.809 – 02:52:28.889] And it, it's one of those things where, where when I'm working with somebody that gets enamored of somebody [02:52:28.889 – 02:52:29.689] in the program… [02:52:29.689 – 02:52:35.549] Well, let me go back just a little bit forward to a little bit more kind of a rigid stance. [02:52:35.549 – 02:52:45.629] When I came in the program, I was ab- it was absolutely beaten into me that women in AA are not [02:52:45.629 – 02:52:47.729] women, they're alcoholics. [02:52:47.729 – 02:52:52.949] And you don't deal with them as women, you deal with them as alcoholics.

[02:52:52.949 – 02:53:02.138] And I'll guarantee you, the, the first several years I was in AA, I would have rather French-kissed a cobra than, uh – … [02:53:02.138 – 02:53:02.649] than a, than a… [02:53:02.649 – 02:53:07.489] That is a sick thought, isn't it? [02:53:07.489 – 02:53:10.899] That, that's a… [02:53:10.899 – 02:53:17.489] But they w- But I'll guarantee you there, there was no way I, I was gonna… [02:53:17.489 – 02:53:23.089] Man, I thought maybe something was gonna just fall on me out of heaven or something if I even looked long at a woman. [02:53:23.089 – 02:53:27.389] And so I, I was raised in that culture, that you just…

[02:53:27.389 – 02:53:30.809] It's not a matter of when to do it or how to do it or whether to do it, it's don't do it. [02:53:30.809 – 02:53:31.969] You know, just ain't gonna do it. [02:53:31.969 – 02:53:40.909] And, uh, I, I got involved with one AA woman, and fortunately, we both got through it. [02:53:40.909 – 02:53:47.769] Uh, but I saw the wisdom b- because there are some real challenges in that. [02:53:47.769 – 02:53:52.129] Now I'm no expert on it whatsoever, but I've worked with a lot of people dealing with this thing.

[02:53:52.129 – 02:53:58.569] There are some real challenges when you get two people with common kinds of problems. [02:53:58.569 – 02:54:07.669] Rather than think, rather than the, the notion that we strengthen each other, we, it, it looks like we have as much conflict as we do. [02:54:07.669 – 02:54:13.848] Now, there are a lot of AA marriages that work out, and work out very well. [02:54:13.848 – 02:54:16.649] There are a lot that don't. [02:54:16.649 – 02:54:25.669] You know, it looks to me like the odds are just about as good in AA as out of AA, in all reality.

[02:54:25.669 – 02:54:28.119] That, you know, somewhere a l- little less than fa- [02:54:28.316 – 02:54:34.896] 50% of marriages tend to culminate into long-term marriages, and so that, and that's not, not all that much. [02:54:34.896 – 02:54:45.996] I, I, m- I, I guess what I'm r- really getting at is that if I'm working with somebody, and they start to get involved with someone in the program, what [02:54:45.996 – 02:54:49.836] I ask them to do is, is make it pass every test. [02:54:49.836 – 02:54:52.176] Make it pass every test. [02:54:52.176 – 02:54:55.776] Don't just take it for granted that it's gonna be wonderful.

[02:54:55.776 – 02:54:57.896] Make it pass the test. [02:54:57.896 – 02:55:00.776] Are you genuinely committed to this person? [02:55:00.776 – 02:55:06.956] Are you genuinely willing to be engaged to this person rather than just get in a cohabiting situation? [02:55:06.956 – 02:55:10.816] Are you really willing to go through the proper… [02:55:10.816 – 02:55:19.306] Did you get her up? [02:55:19.306 – 02:55:21.416] Well, you never know up here in, in Ohio. [02:55:21.416 – 02:55:27.106] I, I… [02:55:27.106 – 02:55:29.416] Uh, but you know what I mean. [02:55:29.416 – 02:55:31.576] It's, it's, it's make it pass the test. [02:55:31.576 – 02:55:39.976] And, uh, I, I won't go into any details enough to identify who I'm talking about, but I, I was sponsoring a person that…

[02:55:39.976 – 02:55:45.076] A, a person of great integrity and great, uh, spiritual quality. [02:55:45.076 – 02:55:51.316] And, and, and he was, and he fell in love with a, with a, um, a la- she was an Al-Anon. [02:55:51.316 – 02:55:53.016] She was not a Fellow A, but she's Al-Anon. [02:55:53.016 – 02:56:03.036] And, um, they're both really people that I thought had gone to the trouble to get [02:56:03.036 – 02:56:08.996] really solidly endowed in the church, got really back so that there was spiritual soundness in all directions. [02:56:08.996 – 02:56:19.416] And it, it came to a point where it was gonna be convenient and economical for them, they were gonna move to a different town

[02:56:19.416 – 02:56:20.276] to go live together. [02:56:20.276 – 02:56:30.296] And, uh, you know, sometimes I'd, I'd be a little looser than others, but that time, owing to the type of people, one of the tests I said [02:56:30.296 – 02:56:32.476] was, "Why don't you do it right? [02:56:32.476 – 02:56:34.116] Why don't you just do it right? [02:56:34.116 – 02:56:36.275] Why don't you do an engagement? [02:56:36.275 – 02:56:38.495] Why don't you set up a marriage? [02:56:38.495 – 02:56:44.376] Why don't you do it right?" And, and both of them are deeply grateful today. [02:56:44.376 – 02:56:46.436] Their marriage is intact. [02:56:46.436 – 02:56:48.736] It has been for 20 years, I imagine.

[02:56:48.736 – 02:56:51.196] And, and, uh, so it, it… [02:56:51.196 – 02:56:51.996] A lot depends. [02:56:51.996 – 02:56:53.936] There's not a pat answer on that kind of thing. [02:56:53.936 – 02:56:56.916] It's who you're dealing with and how to deal. [02:56:56.916 – 02:57:07.196] But my basic, my basic deal is that, um, it's a risk any way you put it, and ju- the, making the assumption that it's gonna be just a marriage [02:57:07.196 – 02:57:10.796] made in heaven because we're both in AA, it's a fallacy. [02:57:10.796 – 02:57:16.176] Uh, it sounds wonderful to have wall-to-wall AA 24 hours a day, but we don't want that.

[02:57:16.176 – 02:57:17.005] You know? [02:57:17.005 – 02:57:19.776] And it starts to get icky and sticky sometimes. [02:57:19.776 – 02:57:19.956] You know? [02:57:19.956 – 02:57:22.796] So you gotta have that little, little, little place in there, I believe. [02:57:22.796 – 02:57:27.776] Um, the, the only other thing that I… [02:57:27.776 – 02:57:37.976] It re- it doesn't relate exactly to that thing, but I'll just throw it in with no extra cost, is I think it's tremendously important [02:57:37.976 – 02:57:41.996] to give newcomers a chance to recover. [02:57:41.996 – 02:57:43.616] Amen. [02:57:43.616 – 02:57:45.436] And, um, there… [02:57:45.436 – 02:57:55.816] You know, in all candor, I, I think one of the cruelest things we can do is get involved with somebody who's brand new in this program, and what we u-

[02:57:55.816 – 02:57:58.716] usually wind up doing is robbing them of a chance to recovery. [02:57:58.716 – 02:58:04.456] And, and I think it's just a cruel and un, and, and, and inconsiderate thing to do to somebody. [02:58:04.456 – 02:58:14.536] So this whole business about relationships I think has a lot to do with the readiness, with the situation, with the type of person, and the, not just a standard… [02:58:14.536 – 02:58:15.986] And that's just an Ivester deal. [02:58:15.986 – 02:58:18.276] That's not party line of the, the Fellowship. [02:58:18.276 – 02:58:25.056] But anyway, good, very important question, 'cause we tend to fall in love with folks we hang out with.

[02:58:25.056 – 02:58:37.396] By the way , yeah, I wouldn't [02:58:37.396 – 02:58:37.586] go there. [02:58:37.586 – 02:58:39.646] Come on. [02:58:39.646 – 02:58:39.856] I- Come on. [02:58:39.856 – 02:58:42.536] Well, no. [02:58:42.536 – 02:58:44.466] I, I tell you there's no magic formula. [02:58:44.466 – 02:58:46.376] I married twice since I've been sober. [02:58:46.376 – 02:58:53.696] Uh, one time when I was five years sober, and I th- I thought I was pretty well along, but it was a bad mistake. [02:58:53.696 – 02:58:55.996] And we d- and we, we divorced. [02:58:55.996 – 02:59:00.736] And, and primarily we just were, were totally, uh, separated r- in regard to the program. [02:59:00.736 – 02:59:10.756] Uh, you know, she, she had different notions about what a social life of a married couple ought to be than me, and,

[02:59:10.756 – 02:59:12.426] uh, so we just sort of drifted apart. [02:59:12.426 – 02:59:13.076] We didn't fight. [02:59:13.076 – 02:59:15.836] We just sort of drifted into a cold war. [02:59:15.836 – 02:59:20.856] And, and I swore I'd never do it again. [02:59:20.856 – 02:59:26.436] But, you know, I mentioned that I had never had a, a real committed relationship. [02:59:26.436 – 02:59:29.136] Uh, I made a mistake. [02:59:29.136 – 02:59:31.566] Uh, uh, my wife is an Al-Anon. [02:59:31.566 – 02:59:34.236] She's not in the program, but I made a mistake. [02:59:34.236 – 02:59:36.376] I, uh, I swore I wouldn't marry anymore. [02:59:36.376 – 02:59:39.756] I went up into Saskatchewan, up in western Canada.

[02:59:39.756 – 02:59:44.016] I think women beget, may get more lonely there than… [02:59:44.016 – 02:59:48.736] And, uh, I went to … [02:59:48.736 – 02:59:49.896] I was gonna do a… [02:59:49.896 – 02:59:57.696] I was speaking at a conference, and, uh, the lady who's my wife was working for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. [02:59:57.696 – 02:59:59.696] And if, yeah, you guys know about them. [02:59:59.696 – 03:00:00.146] Right. [03:00:00.146 – 03:00:02.236] Very, very prim and proper outfit. [03:00:02.236 – 03:00:05.076] She's working in the regional headquarters for Mounted Police. [03:00:05.076 – 03:00:08.696] So I'm in town, and these folks just went all wild out. [03:00:08.696 – 03:00:10.876] They protected anonymity but just barely.

[03:00:10.876 – 03:00:11.335] You know? [03:00:11.335 – 03:00:19.616] And so I'm in town, and it's all over the news, the papers, the radio, the television that there's some ex-con hoarding in here from North Carolina. [03:00:19.616 – 03:00:29.716] And, and I, my s- The guy that's my sponsor now introduced me to this lady because I made a, a s- well, it was an understandable, [03:00:29.716 – 03:00:31.116] it was a language pr- problem. [03:00:31.116 – 03:00:40.720] These guys thought they were the AA center of the universe, and were so gung ho that I was really trying to prick their balloon a little bit.

[03:00:40.720 – 03:00:44.740] So I noticed they didn't have any female members, like we were talking about. [03:00:44.740 – 03:00:53.440] And so I said, "I guess you don't have women in this province." Well, they didn't understand the terminology. [03:00:53.440 – 03:00:55.460] They thought I was lonely, and… [03:00:55.460 – 03:01:01.520] And, and th- they, they set up a deal. [03:01:01.520 – 03:01:02.840] I had no clue. [03:01:02.840 – 03:01:04.100] I was as innocent as a lamb. [03:01:04.100 – 03:01:05.060] Yeah. [03:01:05.060 – 03:01:10.920] And they set up a deal where we went to lunch, and she was staked out to look me over.

[03:01:10.920 – 03:01:15.360] And see if she'd be willing to meet me, and she said, "Ah, we'll try it." Yeah. [03:01:15.360 – 03:01:25.380] And, uh, and so we, uh We got it going, and, and, uh- And I, and I sponsored her on an [03:01:25.380 – 03:01:27.700] alien visa to move to North Carolina. [03:01:27.700 – 03:01:30.800] And, and, and there, you know, we didn't, we didn't live together. [03:01:30.800 – 03:01:34.960] We dated for three years, and, uh, I, I went down slow. [03:01:34.960 – 03:01:36.900] I really meant it when I said I wasn't gonna do it anymore.

[03:01:36.900 – 03:01:38.580] But I thought I did. [03:01:38.580 – 03:01:40.320] But I made a bad mistake. [03:01:40.320 – 03:01:43.080] Fell in love with that girl. [03:01:43.080 – 03:01:47.360] Amazing what that'll do to barriers. [03:01:47.360 – 03:01:57.580] And what happened was probably the most beautiful thing in my life, where I not only was able to make a full commitment, [03:01:57.580 – 03:02:02.240] but wanted to be that lady's husband. [03:02:02.240 – 03:02:03.240] Mm-hmm. [03:02:03.240 – 03:02:06.300] Yeah. [03:02:06.300 – 03:02:08.260] For me, that's a little remarkable. [03:02:08.260 – 03:02:09.320] I, I tell you. [03:02:09.320 – 03:02:12.080] And I've been a decent husband. [03:02:12.080 – 03:02:15.340] I'm in absentia a lot, but I'm something when I'm there.

[03:02:15.340 – 03:02:24.900] So, anyway, you know, they… [03:02:24.900 – 03:02:30.740] There's no real point to that other than, uh, that when it comes along, you know it. [03:02:30.740 – 03:02:31.920] You know it. [03:02:31.920 – 03:02:35.560] And it wouldn't make any difference if it was an entry in the Kentucky Derby. [03:02:35.560 – 03:02:36.720] You couldn't stop them anyway. [03:02:36.720 – 03:02:38.100] You're gonna, you're gonna get going. [03:02:38.100 – 03:02:43.099] So I wish you well, and, uh, in the room or out, it's gotta be the real thing. [03:02:43.099 – 03:02:46.560] Um… [03:02:46.560 – 03:02:52.280] I hate… [03:02:52.280 – 03:02:55.660] Well, now, uh, and this is not a bad thing to, to, to hate to admit.

[03:02:55.660 – 03:03:00.860] I hate to admit it, but I don't understand the term three legacy group. [03:03:00.860 – 03:03:05.000] Um, well, I mentioned about… [03:03:05.000 – 03:03:11.720] And by the way, you know, I, I, the reason I say it's not a thing to be ashamed, I was sitting in a workshop out in Colorado a while back. [03:03:11.720 – 03:03:13.710] I wasn't doing it, I was just sitting in the audience. [03:03:13.710 – 03:03:15.300] And there was, uh… [03:03:15.300 – 03:03:25.400] I asked a question of the, of the folk doing a workshop, and, and then a lady in aus- the audience asked a question of my

[03:03:25.400 – 03:03:25.860] question. [03:03:25.860 – 03:03:31.820] And, and all, all it was was, uh, I had asked something about CPC. [03:03:31.820 – 03:03:36.180] And of course everybody knows what CPC means. [03:03:36.180 – 03:03:37.040] Yeah. [03:03:37.040 – 03:03:39.150] But just in case, yeah. [03:03:39.150 – 03:03:41.680] And she, she said the same thing. [03:03:41.680 – 03:03:45.240] She said, "I hate to admit this, but I'm 22 years sober. [03:03:45.240 – 03:03:48.180] I don't know what CPC means. [03:03:48.180 – 03:03:58.440] What is it?" And I said, "Well, it's cooperation with the professional community." And, uh, and I said, "Don't be ashamed, by all means, [03:03:58.440 – 03:04:08.620] because what you've just done is identified yourself with probably 75% of the fellowship." I, I'm not proud of that, but you, you can be sure that many of our vital

[03:04:08.620 – 03:04:11.199] services are in limbo at best. [03:04:11.199 – 03:04:13.560] And, and that's a vital one. [03:04:13.560 – 03:04:14.140] You know, if… [03:04:14.140 – 03:04:24.160] Uh, I won't go into it, but if you think back to the origination of AA, right close to where we sit, and you look at the absence of the professional [03:04:24.160 – 03:04:28.000] community, you could pretty well thump it up on where we would be. [03:04:28.000 – 03:04:33.700] So the professional community has had a long and valuable relationship to our fellowship. [03:04:33.700 – 03:04:43.870] And over the years, what we have done is just quit nurturing that, uh, so that that's a badly, badly, uh, underutilized kind of service that I think's

[03:04:43.870 – 03:04:44.240] vital. [03:04:44.240 – 03:04:51.040] So a three legacy group, I mentioned about the meetings, where it tends to be a one-note samba. [03:04:51.040 – 03:04:51.579] You know, it's… [03:04:51.579 – 03:04:55.760] The, the, the legacy of those is recovery, period. [03:04:55.760 – 03:04:57.720] That's one legacy. [03:04:57.720 – 03:05:00.080] It is a vital legacy. [03:05:00.080 – 03:05:02.680] It's spelled out in our 12 steps. [03:05:02.680 – 03:05:05.620] You know, and it, it, it is the legacy of recovery. [03:05:05.620 – 03:05:09.250] That's fundamental to what we do, because if we don't recover, the rest of it's just philosophy. [03:05:09.250 – 03:05:10.860] But so that's one. [03:05:10.860 – 03:05:13.260] The other is unity.

[03:05:13.260 – 03:05:21.040] Uh, that's embodied in our traditions about how we can work in unity within our fellowship and within our world. [03:05:21.040 – 03:05:22.450] You know, how can- [03:05:22.567 – 03:05:27.067] We make our group be an effective instrument in the overall work of AA. [03:05:27.067 – 03:05:31.327] And that's a legacy of how we can be in unity with our purpose. [03:05:31.327 – 03:05:37.927] That we get so steeped in recovery that we forget that there's a whole world out there that aren't here. [03:05:37.927 – 03:05:38.427] Yeah. [03:05:38.427 – 03:05:48.207] And so unity not only helps us ser- w- work well, but it helps us serve well, so that we're act- active, uh, an active part of, of carrying this message.

[03:05:48.207 – 03:05:51.647] And then the, the, uh, the third one is service. [03:05:51.647 – 03:05:53.487] I was… [03:05:53.487 – 03:05:56.747] We were talking about the Chicago convention with somebody at the break. [03:05:56.747 – 03:05:57.787] That's… [03:05:57.787 – 03:05:59.127] Oh, where I had the conflict, yeah. [03:05:59.127 – 03:06:04.707] At that conference, you, you, you've probably seen around here, they had a badge which I just loved. [03:06:04.707 – 03:06:13.607] It says, "Service is the secret." And I'll tell you something, that I loved that badge because that is an absolute fact. [03:06:13.607 – 03:06:15.287] Service is the secret. [03:06:15.287 – 03:06:19.027] It's just like Bill was talking about in this Emotions Right.

[03:06:19.027 – 03:06:24.387] What he's talking about was that his service loop was sagging, that he wasn't actively working with people. [03:06:24.387 – 03:06:34.607] And, uh, to my money, the secret to sound sobriety, to joyful sobriety, to real recovery, to having a wonderful kind of life in recovery, [03:06:34.607 – 03:06:38.907] is in service, not in self-serving. [03:06:38.907 – 03:06:40.847] In fact, I really believe that. [03:06:40.847 – 03:06:45.847] So a three legacy group is one that embodies those legacies. [03:06:45.847 – 03:06:48.887] My home group is kind of like we were talking about. [03:06:48.887 – 03:06:50.127] I, I live in Mayberry.

[03:06:50.127 – 03:06:53.187] Not literally, but it looks like it. [03:06:53.187 – 03:06:55.007] No, it's not. [03:06:55.007 – 03:07:01.627] It's a fancy resort, and we specialize in enticing folks from Ohio and Pennsylvania. [03:07:01.627 – 03:07:05.427] To come down there and spend a lot of money. [03:07:05.427 – 03:07:07.607] And, uh, a lot of them stay. [03:07:07.607 – 03:07:08.327] Yeah, so. [03:07:08.327 – 03:07:10.687] But anyway, it's a small town. [03:07:10.687 – 03:07:17.887] And, uh, and, uh- And our group, it's not the best group in the world. [03:07:17.887 – 03:07:20.267] Uh, ours is a sound group. [03:07:20.267 – 03:07:22.907] We're a three legacy group. [03:07:22.907 – 03:07:25.807] We've got a strong recovery program.

[03:07:25.807 – 03:07:36.226] Uh, every time we meet on Monday night, we have a big book study, uh, a big book discussion, a step meeting, and a newcomer meeting, all meeting at the same time [03:07:36.227 – 03:07:37.667] so that we can do more than one thing. [03:07:37.667 – 03:07:39.207] We can actually walk and chew gum. [03:07:39.207 – 03:07:49.307] And, uh and we do, we just finished our group inventory, which is one of the ways of, of assuring that we're in unity with each other and that we're working, [03:07:49.307 – 03:07:51.527] and, uh, and, and with the groups around us.

[03:07:51.527 – 03:07:53.227] And then service. [03:07:53.227 – 03:07:57.087] You know, if you look at, like most places, we got steps and traditions. [03:07:57.087 – 03:07:57.987] We got that too. [03:07:57.987 – 03:08:03.407] But we also have an activity board which says all of the things that we've got committed for that next week. [03:08:03.407 – 03:08:13.567] In my little old town, and I'm, and that's not bragging, it's just a fact, it's what a, a three legacy group ought to look like, we have four commitments in hospitals, detox and treatment centers. [03:08:13.567 – 03:08:15.567] We have four commitments in penitentiaries.

[03:08:15.567 – 03:08:17.127] We've got active CPC. [03:08:17.127 – 03:08:18.367] We've got active PI. [03:08:18.367 – 03:08:22.587] Have an active grape- uh, Grapevine deal, a newsletter. [03:08:22.587 – 03:08:24.607] And this is all in Mayberry. [03:08:24.607 – 03:08:31.107] So a three legacy group, I don't mean to sound like you gotta have a Rolls-Royce. [03:08:31.107 – 03:08:35.627] All that is is a place where people can genuinely get into service and not talk about it. [03:08:35.627 – 03:08:37.547] Get into it and do something. [03:08:37.547 – 03:08:42.147] And so somebody walks in our group, they can get a job day one. [03:08:42.147 – 03:08:46.327] May not have them making a speech, but they can lick a stamp.

[03:08:46.327 – 03:08:49.727] Or tote a box or something, you know. [03:08:49.727 – 03:08:55.087] So anyway, that's what a three legacy group is, is one where you've got all of the things… [03:08:55.087 – 03:08:58.727] I'll tell you just one bias of, of mine. [03:08:58.727 – 03:09:09.787] I believe any group that doesn't have active service beyond the walls of the meeting is [03:09:09.787 – 03:09:20.047] a group that's shortchanging itself, because those things, just like Bill was talking about, those are the things that bring it alive and make it happen and make it sing.

[03:09:20.047 – 03:09:26.207] And, uh, so whoever asked that question probably didn't have in mind for me to get into all that. [03:09:26.207 – 03:09:30.566] But, but that is, is so true, though. [03:09:30.566 – 03:09:39.687] As a three legacy group, it's nothing in the world but just a well-ordered group where we carry out the full program of AA and not just one minor sliver. [03:09:39.687 – 03:09:41.307] Yeah. [03:09:41.307 – 03:09:41.927] Thank you, love. [03:09:41.927 – 03:09:44.706] I won't grab you like I did that guy. [03:09:44.706 – 03:09:47.407] I've learned better. [03:09:47.407 – 03:09:54.607] Uh, slip, fear. [03:09:54.607 – 03:09:56.707] Oh, slip. [03:09:56.707 – 03:10:00.887] Yeah, lose sobriety, loses its priority.

[03:10:00.887 – 03:10:04.367] Fear is forget… [03:10:04.367 – 03:10:06.577] Now, this, these are the acronyms for. [03:10:06.577 – 03:10:10.187] Fear is forget everything and run. [03:10:10.187 – 03:10:11.317] Ooh. [03:10:11.317 – 03:10:12.527] Yeah. [03:10:12.527 – 03:10:14.427] That, um- Boy scouts. [03:10:14.427 – 03:10:14.727] Hey? [03:10:14.727 – 03:10:16.867] What do you think? [03:10:16.867 – 03:10:17.567] Oh, what do you think? [03:10:17.567 – 03:10:25.367] Well, I think it's a pretty darn good acronym, and, uh, it's a, it's a, it's a reasonable definition of a slip. [03:10:25.367 – 03:10:28.327] It's… [03:10:28.327 – 03:10:37.647] I tell you the strange thing about slips that, that, that I've come to believe is that the average slip starts at least six months before the drink.

[03:10:37.647 – 03:10:38.277] Mm-hmm. [03:10:38.277 – 03:10:42.767] And I don't know whether it's something losing a priority or, or something. [03:10:42.767 – 03:10:52.367] It's, it's, uh, at least losing the, the aggressive, moving, positive relationship to the program. [03:10:52.367 – 03:10:53.247] What… [03:10:53.247 – 03:10:54.577] And you, you think about it. [03:10:54.577 – 03:10:55.867] I know you've seen the same thing. [03:10:55.867 – 03:11:02.487] It's a weird thing, but anybody can recognize when somebody's headed for trouble. [03:11:02.487 – 03:11:06.587] Old folks, you remember we did a workshop, a little within our group. [03:11:06.587 – 03:11:07.707] We did a little thing one time. [03:11:07.707 – 03:11:17.747] We were talking in the heading of working with others, and one of the things we agreed on in our group was just that, that you can recognize when

[03:11:17.747 – 03:11:18.787] somebody's headed for trouble. [03:11:18.787 – 03:11:24.107] But we're almost all equally puzzled about how to deal with it. [03:11:24.107 – 03:11:27.891] And so we beat that around for a couple of hours. [03:11:27.891 – 03:11:37.851] What we wound up with, and I, I was just talking with somebody right before we started, what we wound up with is that the per- the, that somebody needs to do something. [03:11:37.851 – 03:11:43.071] But the person who needs to do it is the person who has the greatest level of trust. [03:11:43.071 – 03:11:44.641] Mm-hmm. [03:11:44.641 – 03:11:49.510] Because if you don't have that trust, what you'll do is make it worse.

[03:11:49.510 – 03:11:55.751] If you go crashing in on somebody where you don't have that trust established, it won't happen. [03:11:55.751 – 03:11:57.151] You'll do more harm than good. [03:11:57.151 – 03:12:00.751] A strange thing about alcoholics, one, one… [03:12:00.751 – 03:12:10.271] my experience has been that once you develop tr- real trust with an alcoholic, you might as well fasten your seatbelt because it's a lifetime thing. [03:12:10.271 – 03:12:12.251] Lifetime thing. [03:12:12.251 – 03:12:19.071] And you can do almost anything you want to with somebody when you've got that trust. [03:12:19.071 – 03:12:25.531] And if you don't, you know, you stand a real good chance of doing more harm than good.

[03:12:25.531 – 03:12:31.311] So it's a strange thing, but that, that's what I believe a- about SLIPS, that… [03:12:31.311 – 03:12:39.231] And that's, that's not a bad acronym, but that- is a slip of, of how to intervene is, is a tricky terrain. [03:12:39.231 – 03:12:45.471] And, and, Forget Everything And Run, that's a, that's a good one for fear. [03:12:45.471 – 03:12:48.911] Yeah, I'll, I'll just say right on with that. [03:12:48.911 – 03:12:51.671] That Forget Everything And Run. [03:12:51.671 – 03:12:55.171] Uh, when… [03:12:55.171 – 03:12:59.811] By the way, if anybody wants to add anything to any of this stuff, Kent, old man, I haven't called on you guys.

[03:12:59.811 – 03:13:03.951] If, if y'all want to add anything, just have at it. [03:13:03.951 – 03:13:06.711] Uh, or just let me just die by overwork. [03:13:06.711 – 03:13:16.211] But when you want to surround your life with God and recovery… [03:13:16.211 – 03:13:17.871] Ooh. [03:13:17.871 – 03:13:22.891] Yeah, we're gonna come back to this in some detail that, that in the, the last three steps. [03:13:22.891 – 03:13:32.351] But when, when you wanna surround your life with God and recovery, how do you balance that with relationships so it doesn't hinder either one of you? [03:13:32.351 – 03:13:43.191] Well, that, it's a huge challenge, and that's not an unusual challenge for

[03:13:43.191 – 03:13:50.051] any of us, I, I think mo- Particularly if you get involved in service, if you really get actively involved in service. [03:13:50.051 – 03:13:54.491] Just going to meetings, you, that's sort of come and go, you know, stuff. [03:13:54.491 – 03:13:56.351] You could cut that off fairly, fairly easily. [03:13:56.351 – 03:14:06.271] But when you get involved in service, I- most of us who get heavily involved in service have to deal with a real troubling question. [03:14:06.271 – 03:14:13.191] Is what I'm trying to do here tearing down the things that are really important to me?

[03:14:13.191 – 03:14:16.191] Am I doing this at the expense of my family? [03:14:16.191 – 03:14:18.711] Am I doing it at the expense of my job? [03:14:18.711 – 03:14:29.671] I think all of us who get caught up in this thing and really get involved in service have that challenge of how do we do this and still maintain our responsibility. [03:14:29.671 – 03:14:40.631] Now, I, I said half in jest, uh, that, that my wife would be the one to, to, to really report on, uh, uh, my overcommitment, because [03:14:40.631 – 03:14:44.890] practically, uh, uh, every weekend of my life, I'm off doing something like this.

[03:14:44.890 – 03:14:48.811] And between this, I, I don't mean just this, but doing something. [03:14:48.811 – 03:14:57.771] And, uh, between this, I've got commitments that, of things that I do in my home group and in my prison and, and other stuff around the state. [03:14:57.771 – 03:15:01.331] So yeah, it's a very busy life, and it's a very demanding life. [03:15:01.331 – 03:15:05.581] I tell you what I've found now, and this is, is, is… [03:15:05.581 – 03:15:11.091] 'cause it is a troubling kind of a question if you're, if you're somebody that's, uh, getting into that or you're in it now.

[03:15:11.091 – 03:15:13.931] A, a bit of a cr- bit of a critical thing. [03:15:13.931 – 03:15:19.571] What I've found is that the, the, that the principles are the key. [03:15:19.571 – 03:15:26.451] Everything that I do in my life of any importance has, is based in principles. [03:15:26.451 – 03:15:30.591] My marriage is based in principles. [03:15:30.591 – 03:15:35.670] It's based in a vow that I made to be that husband I wanna be. [03:15:35.670 – 03:15:38.271] Those are important principles. [03:15:38.271 – 03:15:48.011] When I'm employed, a principle there is that you show up and you do your work, that you take care of it, that you put your company first, that you, that, that's important.

[03:15:48.011 – 03:15:49.171] There are principles of that. [03:15:49.171 – 03:15:52.391] On and on with all those things. [03:15:52.391 – 03:15:57.131] So naturally, they, uh, they, they really pose a challenge for somebody who's really active in AA. [03:15:57.131 – 03:16:04.951] What I've found, and I'm as busy as anybody I have ever met, and that's the God's truth. [03:16:04.951 – 03:16:15.231] Uh, the, and like anybody, I've been, been involved with a very heavy, demanding, high-pressure [03:16:15.231 – 03:16:15.671] career. [03:16:16.884 – 03:16:19.284] Um, most of which I created. [03:16:19.284 – 03:16:21.184] I, I just do it that way. [03:16:21.184 – 03:16:23.844] But it, it, it was very important career to me.

[03:16:23.844 – 03:16:25.044] I've been involved in that. [03:16:25.044 – 03:16:26.244] Had a family. [03:16:26.244 – 03:16:29.404] My wife and I just celebrated 38 years of continuous marriage. [03:16:29.404 – 03:16:31.424] We had a couple of kids. [03:16:31.424 – 03:16:32.624] Uh, s- used to. [03:16:32.624 – 03:16:33.564] They're old people now. [03:16:33.564 – 03:16:36.634] But, but they still hang around and want something. [03:16:36.634 – 03:16:40.264] But you know, what they want is their us. [03:16:40.264 – 03:16:41.704] They're, they're… [03:16:41.704 – 03:16:43.744] Those are important things. [03:16:43.744 – 03:16:53.784] What I've found is that when I operate by principles, and genuinely try to do what's right, my activity [03:16:53.784 – 03:16:57.484] in AA does not compete with anything in my life.

[03:16:57.484 – 03:17:02.984] Now, that takes more than just some little bland statement to say that's the way it is. [03:17:02.984 – 03:17:04.584] You have to make that happen. [03:17:04.584 – 03:17:07.764] Uh, I was talking about commitment earlier. [03:17:07.764 – 03:17:18.044] I, I think commitment is an extremely important ingredient in having a workable kind of relationship, where it's a difference [03:17:18.044 – 03:17:23.884] between a commitment where folks close to me know what my commitments are. [03:17:23.884 – 03:17:25.704] They know… [03:17:25.704 – 03:17:26.864] I'll give you an example. [03:17:26.864 – 03:17:30.084] My son is, um, he's, he's a physician. [03:17:30.084 – 03:17:34.603] And, uh, tried to get him to get into a decent field, but he, he didn't.

[03:17:34.603 – 03:17:36.434] Oh. [03:17:36.434 – 03:17:39.744] He's a high-risk sp- specialist in maternal fetal medicine. [03:17:39.744 – 03:17:40.754] Oh, wow. [03:17:40.754 – 03:17:43.464] He couldn't get suit enough just being a regular OBGYN. [03:17:43.464 – 03:17:44.244] So… [03:17:44.244 – 03:17:47.204] But, uh, he started to make a few bucks. [03:17:47.204 – 03:17:50.944] And one night he was visiting at the home, and, uh, that… [03:17:50.944 – 03:17:52.803] You know, the point is about how you'd… [03:17:52.803 – 03:17:53.634] how this works. [03:17:53.634 – 03:18:02.384] You know, when you got commitments, that commitments tells you what you're gonna do, and they also tell you that everything else is under a different heading.

[03:18:02.384 – 03:18:04.934] So we sitting there, sitting at the… [03:18:04.934 – 03:18:11.184] just he and I chatting, and he said, "Hey, Dad, you know, I'd like to take you guys out to dinner tonight." And I said, "Well, that's real generous of you. [03:18:11.184 – 03:18:12.404] I'm glad." No, I didn't. [03:18:12.404 – 03:18:13.444] I didn't say anything at first. [03:18:13.444 – 03:18:15.704] Later I said it's generous. [03:18:15.704 – 03:18:23.084] But I didn't say anything, and I don't know if I, if I showed a flicker or what, or he just thought, but he said, "Oh, wait a minute.

[03:18:23.084 – 03:18:33.444] This is your group night." And I said, "Yeah." He said, "Oh, well, heck, we'll do it different." Now, suppose I'd have said to him, "Uh, no, I'm gonna go hang out with Tony tonight." [03:18:33.444 – 03:18:36.284] That would not have been the same thing. [03:18:36.284 – 03:18:40.584] You know, what he'd have said, what that would've said is Tony's more important than you. [03:18:40.584 – 03:18:42.554] See what I'm talking about? [03:18:42.554 – 03:18:52.024] So if it's a commitment, it's bound in integrity, and people can trust me to do what I say I'm gonna do.

[03:18:52.024 – 03:18:55.824] They can trust me to be there on that night. [03:18:55.824 – 03:18:58.704] So they can plan around that, you know. [03:18:58.704 – 03:19:01.503] They honor that commitment, just like he did. [03:19:01.503 – 03:19:04.544] And we did go out to dinner somewhere, and he paid. [03:19:04.544 – 03:19:05.464] I couldn't believe it. [03:19:05.464 – 03:19:11.384] And, and so what I do, my calendar is an open book. [03:19:11.384 – 03:19:21.824] And, uh, now y- y- they can't wait till Thursday before I fly out on Friday to say, "Hey, I want you to do this." So what you do is take the calendar,

[03:19:21.824 – 03:19:22.884] write it in. [03:19:22.884 – 03:19:31.464] You wanna do something, you wanna plan a vacation, you wanna go goof off somewhere, you wanna buy a hot dog, go show off, you know, whatever, all you gotta do is put it on the book. [03:19:31.464 – 03:19:32.044] Yeah. [03:19:32.044 – 03:19:34.544] And then that becomes a commitment. [03:19:34.544 – 03:19:37.164] So that's what I'm talking about with principles. [03:19:37.164 – 03:19:42.224] You know, it's not an easy thing, but it's something you gotta have some honesty and integrity. [03:19:42.224 – 03:19:43.924] Sometimes… [03:19:43.924 – 03:19:54.164] And I'll tell you the worst thing I think we can do, sometimes we approach it by saying, almost saying that if it's AA, it's, it has

[03:19:54.164 – 03:19:55.444] the holy blessing. [03:19:55.444 – 03:19:57.584] You know, that it's God's work. [03:19:57.584 – 03:19:58.904] Yeah. [03:19:58.904 – 03:19:59.804] If it's AA. [03:19:59.804 – 03:20:03.384] That AA is the most important thing in my life. [03:20:03.384 – 03:20:06.984] Now, I don't say that because I don't believe that. [03:20:06.984 – 03:20:12.104] My recovery is the most important thing in my life. [03:20:12.104 – 03:20:14.064] That's a different statement. [03:20:14.064 – 03:20:19.024] Everything I do in AA does not have holy water sprinkled on it. [03:20:19.024 – 03:20:21.644] Sometimes I'm just goofing off. [03:20:21.644 – 03:20:22.784] Yeah. [03:20:22.784 – 03:20:24.884] So you see what I'm talking about? [03:20:24.884 – 03:20:26.844] Yeah, it's, that's an important question. [03:20:26.844 – 03:20:35.783] I'll dwell on that just a little bit because it, it is so frequently troubling for so many of us who really get involved in this thing.

[03:20:35.783 – 03:20:42.104] And so I think the real secret is in that thing of having clear, solid, well-understood commitments. [03:20:42.104 – 03:20:45.944] And, uh, my wife will correct me in a heartbeat. [03:20:45.944 – 03:20:49.384] If I start to agree to something, she'll say, "No, you can't do that." Why not? [03:20:49.384 – 03:20:51.104] She'll say, "Well, you go to prison." I think, "Oh, okay. [03:20:51.104 – 03:20:53.644] Excuse me." You know, so, so she's part of it. [03:20:53.644 – 03:21:01.224] And so it not only sort of defines the channels for me to work, but, but don't miss that word I said.

[03:21:01.224 – 03:21:02.164] It's trust. [03:21:02.164 – 03:21:09.084] If people trust me to do what I say I'm gonna do, then they know how to deal with me. [03:21:09.084 – 03:21:14.924] But if I'm sort of a chameleon that you can't figure out what he's gonna do next, that's gonna drive everybody nuts. [03:21:14.924 – 03:21:18.084] And so I, I think that is a critically important question. [03:21:18.084 – 03:21:25.184] I, I didn't, didn't mean to beat it to death, but if, if we don't resolve that kind of thing, it can give us a fit.

[03:21:25.184 – 03:21:26.684] It can really give us a fit. [03:21:26.684 – 03:21:31.644] Um, anything else on that, anybody? [03:21:31.644 – 03:21:32.764] Yeah. [03:21:32.764 – 03:21:33.264] Okay. [03:21:33.264 – 03:21:43.304] If you are not sponsoring someone, if you're not sponsoring someone, should [03:21:43.304 – 03:21:45.694] I worry that I am not helping someone? [03:21:45.694 – 03:21:47.834] What do you think? [03:21:47.834 – 03:21:56.104] Well, uh, I, I'll put it this way. [03:21:56.104 – 03:21:56.794] If, if, if… [03:21:56.794 – 03:22:03.604] I believe that if you're, if you're much over a year sober, you ought to be sponsoring somebody. [03:22:03.604 – 03:22:04.324] Yeah. [03:22:04.324 – 03:22:10.524] And, and it's not a holy mission, but it's an ex- It's like the book says.

[03:22:10.524 – 03:22:14.154] You know, in that, in that chapter, working with others, you remember that little two paragraph? [03:22:14.154 – 03:22:15.803] It, it, it… [03:22:15.803 – 03:22:24.768] What it talks about is the marvelous reward Of ensuring your sobriety by actively trying to help somebody else. [03:22:24.768 – 03:22:28.488] That it works when n- when nothing else does. [03:22:28.488 – 03:22:29.248] It works. [03:22:29.248 – 03:22:39.868] And then the second part of that is to see somebody come alive in front of you that has trusted you [03:22:39.868 – 03:22:40.908] to be part of their life. [03:22:40.908 – 03:22:47.008] The book says that's an experience you must not miss, and that is powerful.

[03:22:47.008 – 03:22:48.468] That is powerful. [03:22:48.468 – 03:22:51.808] When you can really feel that sense of, of… [03:22:51.808 – 03:22:53.208] Just like my buddy in Dundee. [03:22:53.208 – 03:22:59.688] I had to go over there 'cause I told him that's what we were gonna do. [03:22:59.688 – 03:23:03.728] So it- it- it… [03:23:03.728 – 03:23:04.328] I- I would… [03:23:04.328 – 03:23:08.308] My, my short answer would be that, that I really believe it's important. [03:23:08.308 – 03:23:13.488] And if nobody's asking you, you might wanna review why not. [03:23:13.488 – 03:23:23.588] And, uh, and if at a minimum, at a minimum, that at a minimum, you ought to be an active

[03:23:23.588 – 03:23:26.708] agent with other people wherever you go. [03:23:26.708 – 03:23:28.348] Wherever you go. [03:23:28.348 – 03:23:30.008] I don't care whose group it is. [03:23:30.008 – 03:23:35.968] It's not unusual at all for me to go to a group and welcome people to their own home group. [03:23:35.968 – 03:23:46.138] I, I don't mind doing that one bit because, you know, for somebody like me that was isolated and, and reluctant to get involved [03:23:46.138 – 03:23:50.948] with people, that's not gregarious fellowship, that's therapy. [03:23:50.948 – 03:23:54.828] Because that keeps me from being isolated. [03:23:54.828 – 03:23:57.368] That keeps me from backing off.

[03:23:57.368 – 03:24:05.868] And so I would say if you're not sponsoring anybody, at least get into that habit of reaching out to somebody. [03:24:05.868 – 03:24:07.968] And, and it's not hard. [03:24:07.968 – 03:24:09.748] I mean, you don't have to be Dale Carnegie. [03:24:09.748 – 03:24:11.328] I mean, if, if you just… [03:24:11.328 – 03:24:15.988] If you see somebody, pick the saddest looking dude in the room. [03:24:15.988 – 03:24:19.308] And just go over there and say a kind word. [03:24:19.308 – 03:24:21.758] Say, "Hey, good to see you. [03:24:21.758 – 03:24:22.608] I don't believe I know you. [03:24:22.608 – 03:24:26.348] My name's Henry." You know, just, just take that move.

[03:24:26.348 – 03:24:32.088] Or say, "Glad to see you here." I don't care if you hate him, just, just tell him, "I'm glad to see you here." You know. [03:24:32.088 – 03:24:39.048] And, and what that does, it starts to impact on that self-centered thing of being cut off from people. [03:24:39.048 – 03:24:43.988] And that's what sponsorship is, it's just a more intense way of being related to people. [03:24:43.988 – 03:24:48.748] And so at a minimum, you know, you know, I think something like that is essential to do. [03:24:48.748 – 03:24:52.448] I don't want AA to be an unfriendly place.

[03:24:52.448 – 03:24:54.208] I really don't. [03:24:54.208 – 03:24:59.048] And but I'm telling you, you go to some meetings, and I swear to God, it looks like a wake. [03:24:59.048 – 03:25:01.628] And, uh, and that, that's a fact. [03:25:01.628 – 03:25:04.977] Uh, I, I went into one a while back. [03:25:04.977 – 03:25:06.088] I won't name the place. [03:25:06.088 – 03:25:06.158] I… [03:25:06.158 – 03:25:07.188] Well, I mean, it's not gonna… [03:25:07.188 – 03:25:08.748] Well, there's no point in naming it. [03:25:08.748 – 03:25:12.468] It's on the West Coast, I'll put it that way. [03:25:12.468 – 03:25:18.697] And I, I was just happen- my wife and I were bumming around, had to be out there too, we were getting roasted.

[03:25:18.697 – 03:25:21.528] We took a week and just goofed off and played and stuff. [03:25:21.528 – 03:25:30.988] And so we stopped in this town and staying over, and I said, "I think I'll check out." I like to go to meetings that, where I just sort of see how they do it in Podunk. [03:25:30.988 – 03:25:34.788] So I, so I called up and finally chased down a meeting. [03:25:34.788 – 03:25:38.628] They told me the wrong room number, but I got a sense of finding the meeting most of the time.

[03:25:38.628 – 03:25:41.828] So I went over there and smelled the coffee and found them. [03:25:41.828 – 03:25:44.528] And, uh- I went in. [03:25:44.528 – 03:25:47.148] There were three people sitting there. [03:25:47.148 – 03:25:52.328] A, a, a good old boy and his wife and his teenage son. [03:25:52.328 – 03:25:55.378] And I said, "Okay, fine." So I walk in. [03:25:55.378 – 03:25:56.908] I mean, they didn't even acknowledge. [03:25:56.908 – 03:25:59.128] I mean, I could have been a water buffalo coming in there. [03:25:59.128 – 03:26:02.507] They ga- they paid no attention to that. [03:26:02.507 – 03:26:05.868] And so I tolerated that for about, oh, 30 seconds or so.

[03:26:05.868 – 03:26:09.428] Then I went over there and interrupted whatever they were doing. [03:26:09.428 – 03:26:10.328] You know. [03:26:10.328 – 03:26:12.257] They were nothing ab- obtrusive about that. [03:26:12.257 – 03:26:13.668] I just went over and said, "Hey, I'd like to meet you. [03:26:13.668 – 03:26:15.428] I'm Tom Ivester from North Carolina. [03:26:15.428 – 03:26:16.288] Glad to meet you. [03:26:16.288 – 03:26:17.148] How do you do? [03:26:17.148 – 03:26:17.538] How do you do? [03:26:17.538 – 03:26:22.928] How do you do?" And so we did the, the, that stuff, and then they reverted back to doing whatever they were doing. [03:26:22.928 – 03:26:28.508] And then some others started to straggle in as I became the greeter for the group.

[03:26:28.508 – 03:26:33.108] And so I'm over greeting folk, and, uh, greeted the waiter. [03:26:33.108 – 03:26:34.828] Then not the waiter, the guy, the orderly. [03:26:34.828 – 03:26:35.368] Greeted him. [03:26:35.368 – 03:26:38.927] He just came in that room, and he, he wasn't even a member, but I welcomed him anyway. [03:26:38.927 – 03:26:40.807] He may wanna join sometime. [03:26:40.807 – 03:26:43.988] But you see what I'm talking about? [03:26:43.988 – 03:26:52.648] If, if, if I had gone in there and waited for those folks to make me glad I came, I'd have been one sad turkey when I left there.

[03:26:52.648 – 03:26:54.188] Yeah. [03:26:54.188 – 03:26:54.358] It… [03:26:54.358 – 03:26:56.088] So you know, I'm a part of that. [03:26:56.088 – 03:26:58.828] You know, I'm not gonna be a victim of that kind of thing. [03:26:58.828 – 03:27:00.308] I'm gonna make a difference. [03:27:00.308 – 03:27:02.828] I, I'll tell you one other thing that happens with that. [03:27:02.828 – 03:27:07.088] I, I went into a town not too far from where I live. [03:27:07.088 – 03:27:08.828] And it was… [03:27:08.828 – 03:27:10.888] I was going around just, uh, just- [03:27:14.615 – 03:27:15.655] Tony had a leg attack. [03:27:15.655 – 03:27:15.915] Yeah. [03:27:15.915 – 03:27:17.235] Oh, it's his telephone. [03:27:17.235 – 03:27:18.015] That's what. [03:27:18.015 – 03:27:19.555] The… [03:27:19.555 – 03:27:22.995] I went into this place, and I, I just kinda work in the crowd.

[03:27:22.995 – 03:27:24.215] You know, I just wandered around. [03:27:24.215 – 03:27:27.595] And I, uh, met this lady, and I went over to the other side of the room. [03:27:27.595 – 03:27:33.155] And a f- a couple minutes later she came over, and she said, "Can I ask you a personal question?" I said, "Yeah, sure. [03:27:33.155 – 03:27:42.155] Go ahead." And, uh, she said, "What do you sell?" And I said, "Nothing." And y- and I said, "No, no. [03:27:42.155 – 03:27:42.635] Wait a minute. [03:27:42.635 – 03:27:48.395] I do." I said, "I sell recovery, and we got a heck of a deal on it." Yeah.

[03:27:48.395 – 03:27:49.125] Yeah. [03:27:49.125 – 03:27:51.655] Now, that was the truth 'cause that's what I do. [03:27:51.655 – 03:27:55.375] You know, the program of attraction is us. [03:27:55.375 – 03:27:57.255] It's us. [03:27:57.255 – 03:27:59.835] It's not billboards and TV shots. [03:27:59.835 – 03:28:09.975] The program of attraction is us, and if I think I want to help somebody to hook into AA just by sitting there like a houseplant- [03:28:10.985 – 03:28:10.985] … [03:28:10.985 – 03:28:11.955] uh, ain't gonna happen. [03:28:11.955 – 03:28:13.695] It ain't gonna happen. [03:28:13.695 – 03:28:16.394] And, uh, who was it that told me? [03:28:16.394 – 03:28:21.415] I don't know if it's Ken, but anyway, somebody was talking about the power of that handshake.

[03:28:21.415 – 03:28:22.105] Mm-hmm. [03:28:22.105 – 03:28:22.255] You know? [03:28:22.255 – 03:28:24.495] You're guilty, Ken. [03:28:24.495 – 03:28:26.815] I bet you would say it anyway if you didn't. [03:28:26.815 – 03:28:35.935] But the power of that, you know, when somebody feels like he's at the end of the world, and you can just reach out a hand. [03:28:35.935 – 03:28:38.375] Good God, you never know what a message that is. [03:28:38.375 – 03:28:40.415] And so that, that's a powerful thing. [03:28:40.415 – 03:28:48.715] And, uh, so that'd be a kind of a left-handed approach to sponsorship where you at least start getting out of that sort of self-centered lockdown.

[03:28:48.715 – 03:28:52.635] And if you go make somebody else welcome, you'd be amazed what happens to you. [03:28:52.635 – 03:28:53.835] Yeah. [03:28:53.835 – 03:28:57.355] That's sneaking up on it. [03:28:57.355 – 03:28:58.375] The, uh… [03:28:58.375 – 03:29:05.035] Can I keep coming back even if people are getting sick of me being in and out? [03:29:05.035 – 03:29:15.045] Also, where could I be, where, where could [03:29:15.045 – 03:29:18.775] I be missing if I am back and forth so much? [03:29:18.775 – 03:29:19.455] What could… [03:29:19.455 – 03:29:21.314] Oh, what could I be missing if I'm… [03:29:21.314 – 03:29:26.275] Now, I'm a pretty simple-minded type of fella. [03:29:26.275 – 03:29:28.855] I'm a pretty simple oriented type of fella.

[03:29:28.855 – 03:29:34.895] I would suspect that what, what you're missing is nothing profound. [03:29:34.895 – 03:29:39.115] What you're missing is some real simple truisms about AA. [03:29:39.115 – 03:29:40.765] Mm-hmm. [03:29:40.765 – 03:29:44.315] Number one, be absolutely sure you're alcoholic. [03:29:44.315 – 03:29:49.275] If you're an alcoholic, then ask yourself a second question. [03:29:49.275 – 03:29:50.995] Do you wanna get sober? [03:29:50.995 – 03:29:52.695] Do you wanna be sober? [03:29:52.695 – 03:29:58.095] Third, do you believe you can make it for one day? [03:29:58.095 – 03:30:08.095] Now, those are real kindergarten questions, but they are basic fundamental to getting started in this program of recovery. [03:30:08.095 – 03:30:13.735] And so making it depends on how you define it.

[03:30:13.735 – 03:30:18.375] If you think 49 years defines it, it d- no. [03:30:18.375 – 03:30:28.555] If you can do that, answer those questions, and make it one day, you're an absolute winner for that [03:30:28.555 – 03:30:28.855] day. [03:30:28.855 – 03:30:34.155] You've got exactly the same kind of authority in AA that I do. [03:30:34.155 – 03:30:37.795] You're as much of a member as I am. [03:30:37.795 – 03:30:42.635] So I'd, I'd say just to keep it nitty-gritty. [03:30:42.635 – 03:30:45.815] You're not missing some mys- mysterious thing. [03:30:45.815 – 03:30:50.735] It's a matter of getting that, that absolutely rock solid commitment. [03:30:50.735 – 03:30:52.915] Yes, I'm an alcoholic.

[03:30:52.915 – 03:30:55.115] Yes, I wanna stay sober. [03:30:55.115 – 03:30:58.975] Yes, I can make it for one day, and if I can't, I'll make it for an hour. [03:30:58.975 – 03:31:02.855] That was exactly what the program was when I came in. [03:31:02.855 – 03:31:05.655] It was not some esoteric stuff. [03:31:05.655 – 03:31:11.555] And, and so those basic fundamental things, uh, if you do that, you can't go wrong. [03:31:11.555 – 03:31:14.055] And, and so that'd be what I suggest. [03:31:14.055 – 03:31:14.855] It's not what you miss. [03:31:14.855 – 03:31:16.635] It's just those simple little basic things. [03:31:16.635 – 03:31:17.975] Satisfy yourself of that.

[03:31:17.975 – 03:31:23.575] What happens every time you make a day, your morale each i- inches up. [03:31:23.575 – 03:31:29.914] Your morale and spirit inches up because that's a one in the victory column, and you feel good. [03:31:29.914 – 03:31:33.575] Then you do it again, and you feel a little better, and that's what we do. [03:31:33.575 – 03:31:37.355] We just put those days together, and they turn into weeks and months and years. [03:31:37.355 – 03:31:47.355] So man, I, I, I, I don't, I c- I've never done it, but God knows how many people I have wa- walked through that tragedy of

[03:31:47.355 – 03:31:48.895] coming in and going out. [03:31:48.895 – 03:31:54.755] The, the real tragedy is that the more you come in and go out, the more often you do it. [03:31:54.755 – 03:32:00.075] So I'd say put a stop to that sucker and dig in there and give it everything you got. [03:32:00.075 – 03:32:00.605] Yeah. [03:32:00.605 – 03:32:02.855] Treat it like your life depends on it 'cause it probably does. [03:32:02.855 – 03:32:04.415] Uh. [03:32:04.415 – 03:32:14.925] The four absolutes, [03:32:14.925 – 03:32:17.105] honesty, unselfishness, purity, and love. [03:32:17.105 – 03:32:20.935] Share your thoughts on it. [03:32:20.935 – 03:32:30.255] I, uh, I'll tell you what one of my thoughts is, that the, uh, the utilization of those is confined to a sort of area surrounding Ohio.

[03:32:30.255 – 03:32:35.515] That's the only, only place of fellowship that I know of where the absolutes, they're not unknown. [03:32:35.515 – 03:32:38.935] But here they're part of daily routine. [03:32:38.935 – 03:32:41.174] You know, they're, they're, they're very common. [03:32:41.174 – 03:32:43.655] They grew here, and they still remain here. [03:32:43.655 – 03:32:50.155] I don't know of any place else in the country where, where the absolutes have the role in the program that they do here. [03:32:50.155 – 03:32:56.495] They obviously are, are not a part of our core curriculum, so to speak. [03:32:56.495 – 03:32:59.615] You know, that they're something that people found to be useful.

[03:32:59.615 – 03:33:05.655] Uh, I use a lot of stuff that's, uh, uh, but I do it, you know, pers- personally, at a personal level. [03:33:05.655 – 03:33:06.575] I do use a lot of stuff. [03:33:06.575 – 03:33:08.435] I read a lot of stuff. [03:33:08.435 – 03:33:14.607] Um, the absolutes Scared me when I first looked at them. [03:33:14.607 – 03:33:20.507] I thought, "My God, man." I was scared of getting better, never mind perfect. [03:33:20.507 – 03:33:23.687] And when I started thinking about absolute purity? [03:33:23.687 – 03:33:25.987] Absolute love? [03:33:25.987 – 03:33:27.647] Oh, God. [03:33:27.647 – 03:33:37.667] Those, I thought, "What an order." I go, "I can't even try." So anyway, that's, my thoughts don't mean a whole lot because

[03:33:37.667 – 03:33:39.407] my thoughts are greater than my experience. [03:33:39.407 – 03:33:44.287] I, I, I did not grow up with them, and, uh, they're, they're, they're, they're still… [03:33:44.287 – 03:33:51.287] Somebody asked me to do a workshop on the absolutes, uh, uh, up here one time, and, uh, and I, I respectfully declined. [03:33:51.287 – 03:33:59.967] I s- I said, "Let me do it on something else," because I just don't believe in trying to convey something that you don't really have real commitment, uh, whereas you really have… [03:33:59.967 – 03:34:03.007] it's a part of your living, uh, living experience.

[03:34:03.007 – 03:34:05.027] And so I c- I didn't do it. [03:34:05.027 – 03:34:10.827] So they're, they're, they're about as pristine as could be in terms of their origin. [03:34:10.827 – 03:34:15.747] They came in with the first folks who came in here, and, uh, and you guys have hung onto them. [03:34:15.747 – 03:34:19.567] And, uh, doesn't do any harm. [03:34:19.567 – 03:34:21.207] I suspect it probably does some good. [03:34:21.207 – 03:34:22.787] I don't know. [03:34:22.787 – 03:34:26.567] I would sure be interested in learning more about how you use those. [03:34:26.567 – 03:34:33.187] I've never, I've never seen how they're, um, how they're utilized here that much, other, just other than just seeing them around.

[03:34:33.187 – 03:34:35.007] I'd be real interested in that. [03:34:35.007 – 03:34:37.287] I, I try to have an open mind about stuff. [03:34:37.287 – 03:34:42.327] Um, one more, I believe. [03:34:42.327 – 03:34:49.127] This is a longer one. [03:34:49.127 – 03:34:59.547] "Why don't sponsors express the 12 traditions as much as the steps [03:34:59.547 – 03:35:09.047] and the advantages of applying them to their lives t, t, to the weekend? [03:35:09.047 – 03:35:19.207] Is, is AA traditions too advanced for newer members?" Um, well, [03:35:19.207 – 03:35:21.067] I d- I can certainly tell you what I think. [03:35:21.067 – 03:35:25.127] Uh, traditions are vital to me. [03:35:25.127 – 03:35:28.407] They're vital and valuable to me.

[03:35:28.407 – 03:35:38.407] Strangely enough, uh, it may be strange, I don't know if it is or not, traditions were the first thing that gave me [03:35:38.407 – 03:35:39.447] vision in AA. [03:35:39.447 – 03:35:46.687] They were the first thing, 'cause I was fumbling with the steps and, and then I started to get into tradition. [03:35:46.687 – 03:35:56.067] And that's where I saw that AA was more than just a, a handful of drunks meeting in a church basement for an hour. [03:35:56.067 – 03:36:03.927] I started to see that we're talking about a life-changing fellowship that reaches literally around this world.

[03:36:03.927 – 03:36:08.027] And, and that vision clicked with me. [03:36:08.027 – 03:36:16.107] And so ever since then, traditions have always had a real vital kind of a, a role in my life. [03:36:16.107 – 03:36:26.107] I tell you this, um, and then I'll get to what the specific question was, but I tell you this: I use AA tradition, and that's not [03:36:26.107 – 03:36:27.227] just podium chatter. [03:36:27.227 – 03:36:29.207] That's a fact. [03:36:29.207 – 03:36:34.507] I use the traditions in every area of my life. [03:36:34.507 – 03:36:39.627] I use them in my marriage, in my family. [03:36:39.627 – 03:36:44.267] I used them throughout my professional career when I was employed.

[03:36:44.267 – 03:36:48.527] I used them far more than anything I u- learned in university. [03:36:48.527 – 03:36:57.827] Because what they are is a group of principles that tell us how to work together, that tell us how to be unified in a purpose. [03:36:57.827 – 03:36:59.627] My God, what's a marriage? [03:36:59.627 – 03:37:09.127] You- And I find absolutely nothing about the traditions that doesn't relate to me 100% personally. [03:37:09.127 – 03:37:16.327] That thing I threw in about money, property, and prestige that I had on one of these things, that's a tradition.

[03:37:16.327 – 03:37:16.687] Yeah. [03:37:16.687 – 03:37:17.767] Sixth tradition. [03:37:17.767 – 03:37:20.547] We normally think about it as about buying buildings or stuff like that. [03:37:20.547 – 03:37:26.267] But you think about the, the impact of something like that in a family. [03:37:26.267 – 03:37:32.996] Uh, le, let me give you one little, little case history on that, about how it works, and I'll just use that one. [03:37:32.996 – 03:37:38.487] It would fit either that one or, uh, another one. [03:37:38.487 – 03:37:39.287] I forgot the other one. [03:37:39.287 – 03:37:46.747] But we had a deal in our family, to show you the f- the use of this, and then I'll end with answering the question.

[03:37:46.747 – 03:37:57.127] But we had a thing in our family that I know we're the only family in America that did this, but we went nuts about Christmas, and [03:37:57.127 – 03:38:03.787] we started just abso- I mean, just built up so that we made a pure joke out of Christmas. [03:38:03.787 – 03:38:05.217] It was a spending- [03:38:05.532 – 03:38:14.032] orgy of just buying a bunch of gifts, most of which w- were not all that appreciated. [03:38:14.032 – 03:38:17.692] Our, our kids had toys that they never opened. [03:38:17.692 – 03:38:20.132] Yeah, we, oh, we just, just absolutely loaded them down.

[03:38:20.132 – 03:38:22.532] Well, I didn't like that. [03:38:22.532 – 03:38:26.652] But I'm just one guy in the family, but I just didn't like it. [03:38:26.652 – 03:38:37.052] And so finally one day I said, "Shoot, we ought to talk about this." So I, so I just ask everybody to sit down, and I said, I said, "Let's just talk about something." [03:38:37.052 – 03:38:38.402] And we've talked about traditions a lot. [03:38:38.402 – 03:38:46.592] I s- I said, "Let's take a look at what we do at Christmas." And, uh, just, I said a bit, didn't want to sell them a lot.

[03:38:46.592 – 03:38:54.192] I said, "Let's just share what you think about that." Now, I thought my wife was the driving force in that. [03:38:54.192 – 03:38:58.632] We have four members in my immediate family. [03:38:58.632 – 03:39:02.412] Four members despised what we were doing. [03:39:02.412 – 03:39:10.132] But every one of us felt duty bound and obligated to do it because it was expected. [03:39:10.132 – 03:39:16.872] And so we concluded, our analysis of that was, that's pretty dumb. [03:39:16.872 – 03:39:20.212] We wanted heavy language. [03:39:20.212 – 03:39:21.072] That's pretty dumb. [03:39:21.072 – 03:39:27.872] And so what we decided, we put a, a max of what we could spend on any gift, 50 bucks.

[03:39:27.872 – 03:39:29.292] Put a max. [03:39:29.292 – 03:39:32.312] And, uh, I thought you were bringing me some. [03:39:32.312 – 03:39:40.512] We put a max on that thing, and then we made it we adopt a family. [03:39:40.512 – 03:39:41.622] Mm. [03:39:41.622 – 03:39:48.072] So what, what we do is adopt a family that won't have any Christmas if somebody doesn't adopt them. [03:39:48.072 – 03:39:50.872] My God, what a difference, eh? [03:39:50.872 – 03:39:52.992] Now, that's tradition, yeah? [03:39:52.992 – 03:40:02.392] That's just nothing in the world except that tradition that we don't get into all this kind of stuff, money, property, and prestige will divert us from our spiritual aim.

[03:40:02.392 – 03:40:05.892] Our aim is not to have a sp- sp- spending orgy. [03:40:05.892 – 03:40:07.392] Our aim is to love each other. [03:40:07.392 – 03:40:10.912] Have real marriage, real family. [03:40:10.912 – 03:40:15.972] And so tradition, G- God knows it's just so valuable. [03:40:15.972 – 03:40:19.552] And, and, and, and they literally, uh, they, they… [03:40:19.552 – 03:40:27.332] A lot of, a lot of times if I do a workshop on tradition, I always do it from a personal perspective about how they, uh, you know, about how personally. [03:40:27.332 – 03:40:35.172] What I find about traditions, if I understand them at a personal level, it's easy to expand that to a group once I understand the principle.

[03:40:35.172 – 03:40:37.912] So I think they're enormously valuable. [03:40:37.912 – 03:40:46.091] I, I really don't know why, why we… [03:40:46.091 – 03:40:54.912] The thing about why don't sponsors or groups do more of this thing, I, I don't think there's really a, a, a good answer to that. [03:40:54.912 – 03:41:03.992] A lot of time we don't do it because we're ignorant in it, a- and we just don't, we just don't know enough about it or don't put enough value on it. [03:41:03.992 – 03:41:11.371] If you think about, if you think about it, we don't have sponsor schools anywhere that I know of.

[03:41:11.371 – 03:41:15.232] It's kind of like parenthood. [03:41:15.232 – 03:41:16.912] We don't train parents. [03:41:16.912 – 03:41:17.832] You just have babies. [03:41:17.832 – 03:41:18.422] You know? [03:41:18.422 – 03:41:22.252] And thing, thing, same thing with sponsorship. [03:41:22.252 – 03:41:24.532] People take on the job like we're just talking about. [03:41:24.532 – 03:41:26.552] If you got over a year, you ought to be doing it. [03:41:26.552 – 03:41:27.832] And nobody tells you how. [03:41:27.832 – 03:41:30.452] You just sort of do it like somebody did it to you. [03:41:30.452 – 03:41:34.812] And, uh, so there's another thing. [03:41:34.812 – 03:41:38.372] If you think about, think, think, think about this a minute. [03:41:38.372 – 03:41:48.392] You think about any city you want to think about, and you look at the overwhelming preponderance of meetings in your

[03:41:48.392 – 03:41:48.732] area. [03:41:48.732 – 03:41:58.952] I'll give you $100 for everyone that does one on traditions if you'll give me a dollar for everyone [03:41:58.952 – 03:41:59.632] that doesn't. [03:41:59.632 – 03:42:02.602] You're gonna be rich. [03:42:02.602 – 03:42:03.292] You better believe it. [03:42:03.292 – 03:42:05.352] So where would you learn that? [03:42:05.352 – 03:42:05.832] You know? [03:42:05.832 – 03:42:13.292] Where would you learn the, the, the, the, about the value of making traditions a part of what the message is that you carry? [03:42:13.292 – 03:42:15.772] Where would you learn service? [03:42:15.772 – 03:42:17.672] Where would you learn about self-support? [03:42:17.672 – 03:42:28.382] You know, the, the average place where we take up a collection, we say, "No dues or fees, but we gotta buy coffee." That's the least important thing we do with our money, but

[03:42:28.382 – 03:42:30.331] that's what we talk about, you know? [03:42:30.331 – 03:42:37.092] So y- you know, when we look at these deficit areas, we gotta look at what we're doing to make a difference. [03:42:37.092 – 03:42:40.492] And the sad question is very little. [03:42:40.492 – 03:42:41.852] Very little. [03:42:41.852 – 03:42:44.152] So it's, it's a real concern. [03:42:44.152 – 03:42:48.812] It's a, it's a whole area unto itself, but it's a, it's a, it's a big area. [03:42:48.812 – 03:42:55.592] I'll tell you one other thing about tradition that, that, it relates to tradition. [03:42:55.592 – 03:43:05.912] When you don't get into the mainstream, i- if you just let your, yours be just an hour in a church basement, it's, it's what you miss.

[03:43:05.912 – 03:43:07.372] It's what you miss. [03:43:07.372 – 03:43:12.392] It's like I say, if it's not an active thing outside the walls of the meeting, it's, it, it's being shortchanged. [03:43:12.392 – 03:43:17.792] I, I'll give you an example, and it's, and I, and I'm just another member down in Mayberry. [03:43:17.792 – 03:43:23.712] But if you get real active in service, people are aware that you're active in it. [03:43:23.712 – 03:43:25.692] And I got a call. [03:43:25.692 – 03:43:27.372] I wouldn't take anything for this. [03:43:27.372 – 03:43:37.992] Got a call from a fellow at the general service office in New York, and, and, uh, he said, "Tom, got a guy down in Kenya, in Africa,

[03:43:37.992 – 03:43:43.852] that's, uh, really got a problem on his hands that he wants to do something about. [03:43:43.852 – 03:43:54.032] He wants to get AA going in the prisons in Kenya." And, uh, he said, "I sent him some material, and I told [03:43:54.032 – 03:44:04.222] him that I knew a fellow that might be willing and able to help." And he said , "I didn't give him your name because I hadn't talked to you yet, but would you do it?" I said, "Man, I'd be tickled

[03:44:04.222 – 03:44:04.632] to death. [03:44:04.632 – 03:44:10.228] I'd be tickled to death." There's two points that I, I hope come through in this. [03:44:10.228 – 03:44:15.788] One, the guy at the general service office did exactly what we employ him to do. [03:44:15.788 – 03:44:18.468] He's not there to do service. [03:44:18.468 – 03:44:22.928] He's there to facilitate getting service done. [03:44:22.928 – 03:44:28.288] So what he did was send some material, send a box of material to the fella. [03:44:28.288 – 03:44:31.288] I don't think it was in Swahili or whatever they speak. [03:44:31.288 – 03:44:33.128] It mi- I don't know what it was in.

[03:44:33.128 – 03:44:39.448] But that box of material went there because of that collection that we take. [03:44:39.448 – 03:44:42.928] No collection, no box to Kenya. [03:44:42.928 – 03:44:49.268] So it's more, God knows it's so much more than just buying coffee or, you know, some, some… [03:44:49.268 – 03:44:51.268] That's just off the basic essentials. [03:44:51.268 – 03:44:58.888] And so, you know, I'm glad of that, and I'm glad that guy at the office did exactly what he did. [03:44:58.888 – 03:45:00.348] He should not have gone any further. [03:45:00.348 – 03:45:06.228] He called a regular member and said, "Will you try to help?" So I got in touch with this guy.

[03:45:06.228 – 03:45:10.548] You talk about things that add to your life, eh? [03:45:10.548 – 03:45:11.227] God touched me. [03:45:11.227 – 03:45:12.048] His name is Michael. [03:45:12.048 – 03:45:14.468] Very articulate fellow. [03:45:14.468 – 03:45:16.128] I haven't got his whole background yet. [03:45:16.128 – 03:45:20.228] We're busy doing something else, but I wanna, I wanna find out where he came from. [03:45:20.228 – 03:45:21.948] Very articulate man. [03:45:21.948 – 03:45:22.708] We do email. [03:45:22.708 – 03:45:24.448] Thank God for high-tech stuff. [03:45:24.448 – 03:45:28.088] Can you imagine what it'd cost to get back and forth on the phone? [03:45:28.088 – 03:45:28.788] Jesus. [03:45:28.788 – 03:45:32.798] Man, they'd put me in jail for bad bets if I started doing stuff.

[03:45:32.798 – 03:45:40.908] But what we're doing is, is trying to get the movement going, so, and, and we got it underway. [03:45:40.908 – 03:45:42.428] Uh, we, we… [03:45:42.428 – 03:45:44.728] I won't give you too much detail on this. [03:45:44.728 – 03:45:46.688] I'd be glad to privately if you wanna know. [03:45:46.688 – 03:45:56.708] But he, he, uh, he, he, he said, "We need some help," and he said, "We got quite a mess down here." And I said, "Well, describe your [03:45:56.708 – 03:46:00.928] system to me." And he said, "Oh, I don't know how to do that." And this is just back and forth.

[03:46:00.928 – 03:46:07.348] I s- He said, "Ask me some questions, and I can answer it, and I can give it better." And he was right. [03:46:07.348 – 03:46:10.548] I just happened to send 12 questions. [03:46:10.548 – 03:46:11.968] I, I don't know why I thought of 12. [03:46:11.968 – 03:46:15.928] But I sent 12 questions, and they're the obvious questions. [03:46:15.928 – 03:46:16.868] How many places? [03:46:16.868 – 03:46:17.468] Where are they? [03:46:17.468 – 03:46:19.008] What kind of resource base you got? [03:46:19.008 – 03:46:20.108] You got any people doing it? [03:46:20.108 – 03:46:21.748] What's your transportation situation? [03:46:21.748 – 03:46:26.427] I suspected what the answers would be, and it was dismal on every one.

[03:46:26.427 – 03:46:28.628] And I said, "Okay, fine. [03:46:28.628 – 03:46:33.548] That's where we start." You know, so automatically I started thinking about we gotta get rotating teams of people. [03:46:33.548 – 03:46:36.568] If you only got one car, bring five people to one point. [03:46:36.568 – 03:46:37.548] Help pay for the gas. [03:46:37.548 – 03:46:39.128] You know, that's… [03:46:39.128 – 03:46:40.138] Don't buy it in Scotland. [03:46:40.138 – 03:46:43.688] God Almighty, they robbed me over there. [03:46:43.688 – 03:46:44.748] I've got to report to y'all. [03:46:44.748 – 03:46:45.408] They robbed me. [03:46:45.408 – 03:46:48.658] They go- They… [03:46:48.658 – 03:46:50.158] But see, they got no money. [03:46:50.158 – 03:46:51.568] A- and they got no cars.

[03:46:51.568 – 03:46:53.048] And if they got a car, they got no gas. [03:46:53.048 – 03:46:56.068] But it's, what a great opportunity, eh? [03:46:56.068 – 03:47:03.228] And so I told him, I said, "Well, first you gotta get some, get some information." I was talking about going to the heads of the facility to see if they were open to it. [03:47:03.228 – 03:47:11.428] Well, he didn't quite understand, uh, my message, so he thought I meant information to the people who were locked up. [03:47:11.428 – 03:47:14.968] So he sent me a picture on, on e- on the email thing.

[03:47:14.968 – 03:47:17.308] Big, and I blew it up way up here. [03:47:17.308 – 03:47:27.328] He got 600 African folk sitting on the ground, and he's up on the little raised place giving them [03:47:27.368 – 03:47:28.128] information. [03:47:28.128 – 03:47:29.318] That's what… [03:47:29.318 – 03:47:33.948] He sent that, that, that message, and he said, "Okay, I got them. [03:47:33.948 – 03:47:43.028] Now what do I do with them?" So anyway, that… [03:47:43.028 – 03:47:45.188] But it just is, what a hoot, eh? [03:47:45.188 – 03:47:46.368] And what an opportunity. [03:47:46.368 – 03:47:56.668] Here, just a little simple thing like that, and we've got the opportunity to bring a program to an entire nation

[03:47:56.668 – 03:47:57.368] where there's nothing. [03:47:57.368 – 03:47:58.728] Where there's nothing. [03:47:58.728 – 03:48:01.908] And, and man, I'm telling you, I am so thrilled about that. [03:48:01.908 – 03:48:03.487] It's just great. [03:48:03.487 – 03:48:13.568] And, and the, the prison where the, the old fella and I do our s- our s- our primary service stuff, uh, when they get the group up, we're gonna get [03:48:13.568 – 03:48:18.348] our group at the prison to communicate with the group starting there. [03:48:18.348 – 03:48:19.718] But isn't that something? [03:48:19.718 – 03:48:26.188] Now, see, if, if I just thought in narrow terms, I would have never even thought of something like that.

[03:48:26.188 – 03:48:27.748] And so that's what I'm talking about. [03:48:27.748 – 03:48:38.178] When you talk about these things, it's a good question because it, it identifies a part of the program where we just barely peck at it, and what it does is open up a whole world [03:48:38.178 – 03:48:41.148] so that we can really do something. [03:48:41.148 – 03:48:45.488] And so I, I, I said, that's an exciting quest- You can tell. [03:48:45.488 – 03:48:48.888] That, um, I think just does so much. [03:48:48.888 – 03:48:58.688] And, and, uh, so I j- I would surely encourage if, if, uh, when you start planning meetings or something, maybe if you get to be chair, bring up traditions.

[03:48:58.688 – 03:48:59.458] You know, that, that- [03:48:59.643 – 03:49:00.683] Sucker punch 'em with it. [03:49:00.683 – 03:49:04.203] And somebody asked me to do a… [03:49:04.203 – 03:49:06.103] If you do sucker punch sometime. [03:49:06.103 – 03:49:11.343] Somebody asked me to do a s- program on service at a group, the oldest group in our area. [03:49:11.343 – 03:49:14.063] I don't think there'd ever been one in the history of that group. [03:49:14.063 – 03:49:18.103] And I said, "I- I'm sure, I'll be glad to do it, provided you tell them. [03:49:18.103 – 03:49:29.263] You know, you let them have fair warning so they can hide if they don't wanna be involved with it." So she said, "Okay, I'll do that." So I got there, we're

[03:49:29.263 – 03:49:39.963] walking in and she said, "I lied to you." I said, "What about?" She said, "I didn't tell them." So [03:49:39.963 – 03:49:44.323] we had a house full of people, and uh, it wa- and we talked about service. [03:49:44.323 – 03:49:45.463] We had a great meeting. [03:49:45.463 – 03:49:46.503] Had a great meeting. [03:49:46.503 – 03:49:49.383] So I don't mind sucker punching a little bit sometimes. [03:49:49.383 – 03:49:50.203] It's just a good way. [03:49:50.203 – 03:49:52.603] You gotta tote the little message in there and slip it to them. [03:49:52.603 – 03:49:58.382] And But whole bunch of stuff like that, that, uh, that's a whole different workshop.

[03:49:58.382 – 03:50:05.323] But this whole business of getting beyond ourselves, and we'll deal with that some when we get into to 10, 11 and 12. [03:50:05.323 – 03:50:15.403] And, uh, that'll, that's, uh, that's one of the fun places in this program for me, and that whole business of how we get in out of this, this sort of staring at my navel [03:50:15.403 – 03:50:22.363] and fixing me and all this, and start looking how we get this dude working in the world and, and, and, and getting back into the race.

[03:50:22.363 – 03:50:27.823] If we make it, this will be the shortest I have ever done on eight and nine. [03:50:27.823 – 03:50:30.623] Uh, they, uh… [03:50:30.623 – 03:50:36.603] I, I've kind of done a little preliminary on the, on eight and nine with the, with their criticality. [03:50:36.603 – 03:50:37.923] But, but you know what? [03:50:37.923 – 03:50:43.643] We laid up with the inventory and, uh, and that of course, you know, that goes a long, a lot further than that. [03:50:43.643 – 03:50:45.883] That's just one little s- little peak at something. [03:50:45.883 – 03:50:54.703] And, uh, when we get that, get that decision made, six and seven, then we move right into some action.

[03:50:54.703 – 03:50:59.023] And like I said, a lot of people skip around this and go another direction. [03:50:59.023 – 03:50:59.883] Yeah. [03:50:59.883 – 03:51:04.463] But for those of us who stay, uh, some serious work gets ready to happen. [03:51:04.463 – 03:51:15.183] And, um, I, I tell you, tell you, tell you what I believe is, um, if [03:51:15.183 – 03:51:24.023] I don't deal with the defects of character and the damages that I did, uh, I'm never gonna be free in Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:51:24.023 – 03:51:26.613] And, you know, what it says, the, the… [03:51:26.613 – 03:51:29.943] What we're trying to do here is, is become happy, joyous, and free.

[03:51:29.943 – 03:51:40.323] And I, I really don't believe we become free because those, those harms and the wrongs that we did to people [03:51:40.323 – 03:51:41.203] don't go away. [03:51:41.203 – 03:51:44.003] I mean, they don't disappear or die of old age. [03:51:44.003 – 03:51:45.783] Uh, they stay there. [03:51:45.783 – 03:51:52.323] And, and I believe that they don't just stay there, but they, they can get worse. [03:51:52.323 – 03:52:02.343] And if we don't deal with them, I believe they become an anchor that we drag in recovery, and, [03:52:02.343 – 03:52:11.883] uh, fail to get that freedom that comes from making things right with people, so you can look the world in the eye and, and take a rightful place.

[03:52:11.883 – 03:52:17.703] Now, I mentioned, uh, getting, uh, getting a chance to meet, uh, Bill Wilson. [03:52:17.703 – 03:52:22.043] And, uh, now we weren't fishing buddies or anything like that. [03:52:22.043 – 03:52:32.123] But I went to my first international in Toronto in '65, and my primary motivation, I couldn't afford it by any means, but I, [03:52:32.123 – 03:52:36.043] I, I, I just felt like it might be my last chance to see him. [03:52:36.043 – 03:52:40.183] And for some reason, I di- it was important to me to just make contact. [03:52:40.183 – 03:52:45.363] I, I just wanted to, I guess, affirm that he was there, you know, that he was really a person that…

[03:52:45.363 – 03:52:49.023] And get a chance to just be in his presence. [03:52:49.023 – 03:52:51.083] And so he was all over the place. [03:52:51.083 – 03:52:52.743] It was no problem being in his presence. [03:52:52.743 – 03:52:55.562] The only problem was it was usually a, a ton of… [03:52:55.562 – 03:52:57.443] I gotta watch the deal here. [03:52:57.443 – 03:53:03.283] It was usually a ton of people wherever he was, and most time was in the big arena. [03:53:03.283 – 03:53:08.763] But one day we had a, a meeting on what we were just talking about, traditions. [03:53:08.763 – 03:53:18.322] And, uh, and, and as, as a rule, even with Bill Wilson, that's a little bit like announcing a fire drill or something, you know, that, that folks just tend to thin out.

[03:53:18.322 – 03:53:24.123] And so we wound up with a small, very select crowd, you know, really fine people. [03:53:24.123 – 03:53:28.243] Me and a few others that- … [03:53:28.243 – 03:53:29.223] were good folks. [03:53:29.223 – 03:53:35.683] And, uh, so we, we had the intimacy that we were looking for with this, this small little gathering. [03:53:35.683 – 03:53:42.683] And Bill was talking about traditions, but he was also talking about this whole business of being free. [03:53:42.683 – 03:53:53.143] And, and he was, he, he, he was, he was, he was really talking about anonymity at the time, but, but he was talking about that AA was never intended

[03:53:53.143 – 03:53:56.713] to be some fugitive hiding place for alcoholics. [03:53:56.713 – 03:54:06.723] It never was intended to be a subterranean society that, where we sort of hide in fear and all this kind of stuff, that we get the kind of privacy we [03:54:06.723 – 03:54:08.303] need to, to work out things. [03:54:08.303 – 03:54:18.262] But he said the real objective of the program is to restore us to our rightful place in, in society, and that these steps will do that. [03:54:18.262 – 03:54:22.423] And, and he was particularly talking about, about eight and nine, about this thing of making amends.

[03:54:22.423 – 03:54:32.563] And, and he said, what he said, I remember it very well, was he, he said, "If you take the actions laid out in these steps, you'll reach a [03:54:32.563 – 03:54:41.763] point where you'll be able to walk the face of this earth and look any person you meet in the eye." And that sounded like a fairy tale to me. [03:54:41.763 – 03:54:45.383] I mean, good God, I had so many devils chasing me, and I… [03:54:45.383 – 03:54:50.643] That just sounded like, almost like pabulum stuff, but it was a, it was a picture that, that he painted.

[03:54:50.643 – 03:54:57.443] He said, "There'll come a time that you'll be able to say to anybody, 'Ask me anything you would like. [03:54:57.443 – 03:55:04.555] My life's an open book.'" And, and I tell you, you can call that whatever you want to, but I call that freedom. [03:55:04.555 – 03:55:06.735] That is real freedom. [03:55:06.735 – 03:55:10.235] And, uh, and, and what he said was absolutely true. [03:55:10.235 – 03:55:18.474] I don't know of any place on this planet right now that I can go and be uncomfortable with anybody that I meet.

[03:55:18.474 – 03:55:21.175] Freedom. [03:55:21.175 – 03:55:30.175] And I'd say to you, you know, you, you, we'll be here for a little while longer, uh, ask me anything you want to, privately, publicly, anywhere else. [03:55:30.175 – 03:55:31.875] I, I've got no secrets. [03:55:31.875 – 03:55:36.315] And, and where that comes from is not some stroke of righteousness. [03:55:36.315 – 03:55:39.415] It comes from addressing these wrongs. [03:55:39.415 – 03:55:43.015] You're addressing these things so that I can be free. [03:55:43.015 – 03:55:47.895] I, I, I, I, I'll give you one just l- l- … [03:55:47.895 – 03:55:49.295] I can't give much of an example.

[03:55:49.295 – 03:55:52.375] In fact, I won't, 'cause it'd take too long. [03:55:52.375 – 03:55:56.735] But it's this thing of, of, of, of what we drag behind. [03:55:56.735 – 03:56:04.895] And so when, when I started, and I had a, a formidable list of, of people to whom I owed amends. [03:56:04.895 – 03:56:10.795] I had directly been responsible for the lives of two people. [03:56:10.795 – 03:56:12.715] I took two human lives. [03:56:12.715 – 03:56:15.495] Uh, it was unintended, I know that. [03:56:15.495 – 03:56:16.835] I'm, well, I'm confident of that. [03:56:16.835 – 03:56:26.295] But I did what so many alcoholics, uh, uh, uh, have said to me, that, that, you know, my God, I could have done the same thing and might have.

[03:56:26.295 – 03:56:35.055] Because what I did, driving blind drunk down this main street of the city of Flint, Michigan, ran down and killed two people, and didn't even know it. [03:56:35.055 – 03:56:36.155] Didn't even know it. [03:56:36.155 – 03:56:44.235] And, uh, when, uh, I came to in jail and was greeted with that fact, that, that was more than I could handle. [03:56:44.235 – 03:56:53.735] I mean, I knew that I was capable of anything, but I was not capable of accommodating the information, because I'm not a subhuman. [03:56:53.735 – 03:56:58.015] You know, I'm not a, I'm not some kind of a depraved person who wants to hurt folk.

[03:56:58.015 – 03:56:58.895] Never have been. [03:56:58.895 – 03:57:03.435] But I was greeted with that, and I just simply couldn't handle it. [03:57:03.435 – 03:57:05.415] And I, I mean, it didn't work out. [03:57:05.415 – 03:57:09.534] I just, I just, I just refused to acknowledge that it was true. [03:57:09.534 – 03:57:13.275] But then, but it was obviously true, and then, and gradually it settled in. [03:57:13.275 – 03:57:18.155] And so that was something that haunted me, uh, naturally. [03:57:18.155 – 03:57:20.315] It was something haunting me every, 24 hours a day. [03:57:20.315 – 03:57:30.315] And even, even in jail, even drunk, long before I got in AA, I knew that I needed to

[03:57:30.315 – 03:57:32.655] communicate somehow to the families. [03:57:32.655 – 03:57:35.335] And there were two families involved. [03:57:35.335 – 03:57:45.375] And, uh, so I'd, I, I had somebody, one, it was somebody around town, to contact the families and ask them if they would be willing to hear from [03:57:45.375 – 03:57:45.615] me. [03:57:45.615 – 03:57:51.615] Both families v- very, very understandably said, "No. [03:57:51.615 – 03:57:55.575] Tell him, tell him to leave us alone." Well, you could understand that. [03:57:55.575 – 03:57:59.955] So that was not a, an avenue that I could pursue. [03:57:59.955 – 03:58:09.985] And so then when I was sentenced, uh, to the penitentiary, that was e- omnipresent in, in, in, in my every thought every

[03:58:09.985 – 03:58:12.475] day, understandably. [03:58:12.475 – 03:58:23.055] And it was a lot of what made my trying to find hold of something so critically difficult [03:58:23.055 – 03:58:33.055] to try to come out, because I was filled with so much sh- shame and guilt and remorse and loathing, that I was ashamed to be [03:58:33.055 – 03:58:37.435] breathing, never mind looking for help or anything. [03:58:37.435 – 03:58:38.935] Excuse me. [03:58:38.935 – 03:58:43.835] But when I went in that institution, I was not looking for anything. [03:58:43.835 – 03:58:50.055] You know, when, when I walked in that place, I was absolutely convinced I would never walk out, and didn't care.

[03:58:50.055 – 03:58:52.575] I mean, I honest to God didn't care. [03:58:52.575 – 03:58:54.194] Uh, because I was done. [03:58:54.194 – 03:58:55.855] I mean, this, this, this thing was done. [03:58:55.855 – 03:59:02.415] And so they, they just filed me away like so much human wreckage, and that, and that's exactly where I, I'm… [03:59:02.415 – 03:59:05.055] I had no qualms about being there. [03:59:05.055 – 03:59:07.135] That was exactly where I belonged. [03:59:07.135 – 03:59:15.355] And, and, uh, I'm confident, absolutely confident, that I would have never come out of that place had it not been for what we're doing here today.

[03:59:15.355 – 03:59:19.815] And, uh, certainly I wasn't looking for anything when I went in there. [03:59:19.815 – 03:59:21.055] All I wanted to do… [03:59:21.055 – 03:59:23.495] You know, I mentioned isolation. [03:59:23.495 – 03:59:30.875] I had, I had, I had got into such isolation that I didn't even communicate with people. [03:59:30.875 – 03:59:36.015] You know, the guys on either side of me in cells, I didn't even know who they were. [03:59:36.015 – 03:59:38.115] I mean, uh, it wasn't that I didn't care. [03:59:38.115 – 03:59:39.665] I just, they didn't exist, you know? [03:59:39.665 – 03:59:41.495] I mean, because I was just shut right down.

[03:59:41.495 – 03:59:51.535] And, uh, and then when I, when I got, uh, uh, the, the guy that was checking me in, I mentioned earlier about a fellow said, "You ought to go [03:59:51.535 – 03:59:53.725] to AA." And I'd never heard of AA. [03:59:54.000 – 03:59:55.760] Had no clue what that was. [03:59:55.760 – 03:59:57.280] I'd never even heard anybody helping a drunk. [03:59:57.280 – 03:59:59.420] Uh, that was just a foreign language back then. [03:59:59.420 – 04:00:05.940] So I wound up in the program, and, and, and like we, you know, we'd, we'd, we've gone up through six.

[04:00:05.940 – 04:00:11.960] And, and talking about identifying those things, yeah, I didn't have to hunt for that. [04:00:11.960 – 04:00:14.060] That was just neon in front of me. [04:00:14.060 – 04:00:16.440] That was something I had to deal with. [04:00:16.440 – 04:00:23.140] Didn't know how to deal with it, but, but how do you deal with it when you've been responsible for the life of two human beings? [04:00:23.140 – 04:00:25.040] Yeah, there's no way. [04:00:25.040 – 04:00:29.820] There was no punishment that would've been adequate to deal with it. [04:00:29.820 – 04:00:30.540] Wouldn't matter what. [04:00:30.540 – 04:00:34.320] There's not adequate punishment to deal with something that horrendous.

[04:00:34.320 – 04:00:44.420] And, and so when I got into AA and started going through the steps, I don't think there was a day of my life that I didn't [04:00:44.420 – 04:00:46.500] grapple with how to deal with that. [04:00:46.500 – 04:00:52.560] So when I got into AA, you know, heard of amends, I knew that was something that I needed to do. [04:00:52.560 – 04:00:56.000] That was something that I had to do, and when the time came. [04:00:56.000 – 04:01:04.600] And, and, uh, so even before I even got to AA, I was looking for ways that I could try to do something, you know, to, to, to try to address that thing.

[04:01:04.600 – 04:01:13.100] And, uh, so when I got in and then got to the eighth step, it was pretty obvious that, uh, the time had come. [04:01:13.100 – 04:01:16.200] And what I did was, um… [04:01:16.200 – 04:01:19.820] Well, with that, that was obvious. [04:01:19.820 – 04:01:20.260] You know, that… [04:01:20.260 – 04:01:30.140] And, and so when, when I put that on there, you know, it was a matter of, of, of just identifying ways that I could possibly try to make amends. [04:01:30.140 – 04:01:37.800] I've got a family that doesn't wanna hear from me, and they've already sent word, "Don't contact us." And you can't…

[04:01:37.800 – 04:01:43.800] It's like the book says, I can't find my relief at somebody else's expense, so I have to, I have to honor that. [04:01:43.800 – 04:01:49.500] And, uh, but I was just haunted by the thing and, and just had to do something. [04:01:49.500 – 04:01:54.160] There, there were two levels of that, that, that, that, that really required action. [04:01:54.160 – 04:02:04.040] One was with the victims themselves, and these were two young folks who, whose only mistake was trying to cross the street I was driving down about blind drunk.

[04:02:04.040 – 04:02:07.980] And, uh, so how do you make amends? [04:02:07.980 – 04:02:18.060] Uh, what I did was every meeting I attended, and if there was even anything that rhymed with amends, I listened hungrily to anything I could [04:02:18.060 – 04:02:18.360] hear. [04:02:18.360 – 04:02:26.160] And it might even relate to it, and, and, uh, and, and, and, and filed away, you know, the, the, anything that I could possibly use. [04:02:26.160 – 04:02:30.940] And then when I got to the steps, that was the glaring thing. [04:02:30.940 – 04:02:36.480] And there was this limited amount that I could do directly to the victims.

[04:02:36.480 – 04:02:38.640] And, you know, I put their faces… [04:02:38.640 – 04:02:40.600] I, I'd, I'd seen the pictures of them. [04:02:40.600 – 04:02:42.999] I'd put their faces directly in front of me. [04:02:42.999 – 04:02:45.700] Prayed with their faces there. [04:02:45.700 – 04:02:47.460] Tried to communicate. [04:02:47.460 – 04:02:48.340] Wrote to them. [04:02:48.340 – 04:02:55.440] Did everything I could do in terms of direct action, but obviously that's limited. [04:02:55.440 – 04:03:04.000] And so what I did, and have done ever since, is, uh, we have a thing called indirect amends. [04:03:04.000 – 04:03:11.720] When you can't do it personally, directly, you can do it indirectly.

[04:03:11.720 – 04:03:22.040] And so what I did back then, and still do to this day, I look for opportunities [04:03:22.040 – 04:03:29.060] to do anything that I can possibly do that might make some contribution. [04:03:29.060 – 04:03:36.720] Obviously, it's not gonna change the reality of that, but it might have some influence on somebody else. [04:03:36.720 – 04:03:39.940] And I tell you, there's a, there's a, there's a… [04:03:39.940 – 04:03:49.540] It's amazing what happens when you've got the, the, the mind and the desire to try to do something. [04:03:49.540 – 04:03:53.280] All of the stuff over…

[04:03:53.280 – 04:03:54.679] Now there's no question about it. [04:03:54.679 – 04:03:59.800] My, my zeal in AA is not all just because I'm a dedicated idiot. [04:03:59.800 – 04:04:06.040] Some of my zeal is driven Excuse me. [04:04:06.040 – 04:04:08.840] By the fact that this is a part of the amends process. [04:04:08.840 – 04:04:19.000] You wouldn't believe how many people I have encountered over the years who had direct critical concerns having to do with something [04:04:19.000 – 04:04:19.520] like this. [04:04:19.520 – 04:04:26.380] Wouldn't believe how many people on every side of the issue that, that have been really troubled with, by something.

[04:04:26.380 – 04:04:28.440] So there've been a lot of opportunities. [04:04:28.440 – 04:04:38.600] And amazing what's happened in terms of, uh, things that dir- directly [04:04:38.600 – 04:04:43.060] relate to what happened and to, to, uh, to trying to make amends. [04:04:43.060 – 04:04:54.170] That happened on the 3rd of May of 1956, and [04:04:54.170 – 04:05:03.540] I have never, not one single time, deliberately done anything on the 3rd of May in relation to what happened. [04:05:03.540 – 04:05:04.920] I've never done anything. [04:05:04.920 – 04:05:09.380] I've never, never planned something to cause amends to come up. [04:05:09.380 – 04:05:19.540] But y- you would be amazed how many things have come up on the 3rd of May that I had absolutely nothing

[04:05:19.540 – 04:05:22.000] to do with other than agreeing. [04:05:22.000 – 04:05:32.040] Spoke to 5,000 young people just about the ages of the ones who were killed on the 3rd of May in [04:05:32.040 – 04:05:33.540] two groups of 2,500. [04:05:33.540 – 04:05:35.880] Inescapable. [04:05:35.880 – 04:05:36.479] Yeah. [04:05:36.479 – 04:05:45.200] Made a movie on, on, on drunk driving and the hazards of drunk driving, uh, 3rd of May. [04:05:45.200 – 04:05:54.100] And, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's strange thing the, um, that they did total anonymity. [04:05:54.100 – 04:05:55.880] There's this thing I call the Rubik's cube. [04:05:55.880 – 04:05:59.188] You know how they show a face, they put these kind of moving …

[04:05:59.188 – 04:05:59.778] colors, you know. [04:05:59.778 – 04:06:04.988] The guy assured me there'd be total anonymity and that, and, and that they wouldn't try to pay me anything. [04:06:04.988 – 04:06:10.388] And, uh, I, and disguise the voice. [04:06:10.388 – 04:06:13.968] And after that, uh, it, it was done, I've never seen it. [04:06:13.968 – 04:06:23.988] I, I don't know what it is, but there was a woman from South, uh, North Dakota call me and said, "Tom, have you made a movie?" And I said, [04:06:23.988 – 04:06:24.368] "No. [04:06:24.368 – 04:06:28.698] What are you talking about?" And I had, I, it didn't dawn on me she was, what she was talking about.

[04:06:28.698 – 04:06:31.108] That had been aired on public television. [04:06:31.108 – 04:06:39.448] And, and, uh, she said, "I think I saw you in a movie." And I said, "Well, tell me about it." She said… [04:06:39.448 – 04:06:49.488] I s- I said, "Well, how did you know it was me?" She said, "I recognized your nose." I thought, "Oh my God, yeah, I didn't know it was that [04:06:49.488 – 04:06:52.568] bad." But she, but she recognized it. [04:06:52.568 – 04:07:02.168] I said, "Anonymity, I don't care what effort you go to, it's gonna get through somewhere." But it, things like that, that, that have happened over and over and over again.

[04:07:02.168 – 04:07:11.188] And, and so, you know, when I've got a heart to make amends, pray for opportunities, it's amazing how they come up. [04:07:11.188 – 04:07:13.848] So even in that, that's an ongoing process. [04:07:13.848 – 04:07:15.388] That's not something that'll ever end. [04:07:15.388 – 04:07:18.148] That'll always be an ongoing thing. [04:07:18.148 – 04:07:28.368] I had to, I was asked when I, I became a, an official in the North Carolina prison system, and I was asked to develop a, a, a unique [04:07:28.368 – 04:07:35.668] s- organization for young people just about the ages of the victims.

[04:07:35.668 – 04:07:42.488] Something that had never been done in my state, and they asked me to do the development of it. [04:07:42.488 – 04:07:52.508] Same age as the victims, and here I had about 700 people that I was able to have some [04:07:52.508 – 04:07:56.248] kind of influence in trying to sh- help them shape a future. [04:07:56.248 – 04:08:06.848] And so, you know, it's amazing what happens even in indirect amends, that you'll never get through with a thing like that, but it's not an impossible [04:08:06.848 – 04:08:07.208] thing. [04:08:07.208 – 04:08:12.448] If I'm open and willing and want to make amends, the opportunities come.

[04:08:12.448 – 04:08:16.068] The families, it, it were a different matter. [04:08:16.068 – 04:08:21.448] They, families were the real critical issue, y- you know, in terms of how to make, take action. [04:08:21.448 – 04:08:29.488] I already had their, their s- message that they didn't want to hear, a- and I respected that. [04:08:29.488 – 04:08:37.328] But I did a thing when I did the, uh, started to do my, uh, my amends. [04:08:37.328 – 04:08:43.748] Eight step says that w- we made a list of people we've harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

[04:08:43.748 – 04:08:53.748] I don't normally mess with the steps, but I added one word, and I prayed for willingness and opportunity, because [04:08:53.748 – 04:09:00.408] I was prohibited from doing anything directly because I can't get my relief at somebody else's expense. [04:09:00.408 – 04:09:08.488] And so I, I did it that way and just resolved myself to the fact that may not be able to, to, to, to do anything. [04:09:08.488 – 04:09:11.968] But I just kind of, kind of had 100 good. [04:09:11.968 – 04:09:22.168] When I was released and went back to North Carolina, I got a phone call one day from a, an attorney in Michigan, uh, whom I didn't know, but he identified

[04:09:22.168 – 04:09:32.198] himself, and he said, "There's a hearing, uh, there, there's gonna be a, a hearing related to the, the case that you served time for." And, uh, he said, [04:09:32.198 – 04:09:42.568] "The families of, of the people who were killed in that would like for you to come and testify at the trial." And I said, [04:09:42.568 – 04:09:52.668] "My God, I'd, I'd be willing to do anything I possibly can, but I've got no testimony." You know, the hell of blackouts is that, you know, I sat in the

[04:09:52.668 – 04:09:54.868] trial, and it was as if I were on the jury. [04:09:54.868 – 04:09:57.428] I'm listening to the evidence just like everybody else. [04:09:57.428 – 04:09:58.688] Had no clue. [04:09:58.688 – 04:10:02.528] And, and so I told him, I said, "I've got no testimony. [04:10:02.528 – 04:10:13.568] I don't know what I could say." And he says, "Well, they think it would help." And, and what they had done, you know, what, what they, the, the, the case was, and [04:10:13.568 – 04:10:22.868] you can imagine how a drowning man would jump at a rope, but the, the, the case was that what happened was not actually my fault.

[04:10:22.868 – 04:10:29.228] That, that what happened was that the, the, that the young folks had jumped back to avoid another vehicle, jumped into mine. [04:10:29.228 – 04:10:35.108] And so instantly, you know, just like you would, I mean, I grabbed at it. [04:10:35.108 – 04:10:38.888] I thought, "My God, yeah." But then the reality set in. [04:10:38.888 – 04:10:40.588] That didn't minimize anything. [04:10:40.588 – 04:10:42.028] It didn't mitigate anything. [04:10:42.028 – 04:10:43.788] It didn't change one thing. [04:10:43.788 – 04:10:48.017] And, and so, um, I said, "Okay, I'll do it." And so I- [04:10:48.151 – 04:10:52.031] I went up to Michigan and, and, uh, went into the same courtroom where I was tried.

[04:10:52.031 – 04:10:57.911] Now you hurry up and believe that, you know, that making amends takes you in some strange kinds of directions. [04:10:57.911 – 04:11:03.011] And so I walked into that courtroom, and it was an electric time. [04:11:03.011 – 04:11:06.851] They put me on the stand, and I testified as a guy would do in blackouts. [04:11:06.851 – 04:11:08.611] I'm sorry, I just don't know. [04:11:08.611 – 04:11:13.151] And, um, I, I didn't think I contributed much. [04:11:13.151 – 04:11:23.291] But amazing thing, y- you know how they, in a court, in a court, they will stop proceedings and take the attorneys to chambers to, to

[04:11:23.291 – 04:11:25.431] go over some legalities or whatever? [04:11:25.431 – 04:11:29.231] They took the, the, they took the attorneys in there. [04:11:29.231 – 04:11:36.431] Now I know this is not legal, but apparently God doesn't have the same laws to look at that we do. [04:11:36.431 – 04:11:38.011] It's not legal. [04:11:38.011 – 04:11:40.471] I know it's not appropriate even. [04:11:40.471 – 04:11:43.450] But they put the attorneys in there. [04:11:43.450 – 04:11:46.691] They took the families down the hall, both families. [04:11:46.691 – 04:11:56.511] And then separately, they took me down the hall, opened the door, and the families were in the room alone.

[04:11:56.511 – 04:12:04.451] And, and you know how sometimes when, when you just get absolutely shocked beyond belief. [04:12:04.451 – 04:12:14.631] Now, I've been praying for opportunity, and when I walked in that door, it was as if a neon bulb went off in a, in a, a whole world. [04:12:14.631 – 04:12:22.451] It was just a bright, bright thing, and I thought, "Oh, my God." And then the next thought was, "Well, it looks like your prayers are answered," you know. [04:12:22.451 – 04:12:29.451] And it's either step in or run, and I'd have given anything to run.

[04:12:29.451 – 04:12:31.771] But you can't. [04:12:31.771 – 04:12:35.431] So I went in, met… [04:12:35.431 – 04:12:37.901] I went over to the first family and asked them if I could speak with them. [04:12:37.901 – 04:12:44.331] And so I, I talked with them, and I said what I, what I wanted to say to them best I could. [04:12:44.331 – 04:12:48.951] And I, I swear I, I, I'll never understand it. [04:12:48.951 – 04:12:56.071] They could have not have been more gracious and, and, and, and warm and almost loving. [04:12:56.071 – 04:12:58.811] My own family couldn't have been better. [04:12:58.811 – 04:13:00.591] And, and I just couldn't believe it.

[04:13:00.591 – 04:13:07.051] And, and, and so when we finished what we were saying, I went over to the other family. [04:13:07.051 – 04:13:08.551] And they were not together. [04:13:08.551 – 04:13:10.351] They were in two separate corners. [04:13:10.351 – 04:13:19.511] Went over to the other family, and this was an Eastern European coun- uh, pe- people that had just come over and, uh, they were pretty s- pretty stark people. [04:13:19.511 – 04:13:22.051] They were pretty, pretty straight-like straight people. [04:13:22.051 – 04:13:23.611] So I went to the father. [04:13:23.611 – 04:13:24.551] That was the protocol. [04:13:24.551 – 04:13:34.551] I went to the father and, and, uh, asked him if I could speak, and he said, "Certainly." He listened very courteously, and then when he got through, he

[04:13:34.551 – 04:13:36.831] said, "Appreciate you coming. [04:13:36.831 – 04:13:47.571] We can't forgive, and please don't bother us again." Well, [04:13:47.571 – 04:13:50.371] I wish that it had a different resolution, obviously. [04:13:50.371 – 04:13:52.751] But they just couldn't do it. [04:13:52.751 – 04:13:59.771] The thing– My heart goes out to that family because they're locked in that. [04:13:59.771 – 04:14:04.871] They're, they're locked in it, and they'll, they're, they're not free because they're locked in. [04:14:04.871 – 04:14:09.891] The other family is free, and so nothing I can do about that. [04:14:09.891 – 04:14:11.991] And I still haven't given up. [04:14:11.991 – 04:14:13.651] Uh, I never will.

[04:14:13.651 – 04:14:16.271] But I may never have another opportunity. [04:14:16.271 – 04:14:16.951] I accept that. [04:14:16.951 – 04:14:22.411] But what the step says is that we try to make direct amends wherever possible. [04:14:22.411 – 04:14:28.091] But the caution is we can't impose it on somebody at, at their expense. [04:14:28.091 – 04:14:29.651] So it's a delicate thing. [04:14:29.651 – 04:14:30.771] I share that. [04:14:30.771 – 04:14:31.771] That's, that's a little… [04:14:31.771 – 04:14:32.651] That's normally… [04:14:32.651 – 04:14:35.751] That's a, that's a pretty heavy kind of a, of a thing to deal with. [04:14:35.751 – 04:14:41.851] I, I don't normally do that except, unless it is in a setting where we're really looking definitively into this.

[04:14:41.851 – 04:14:46.291] 'Cause it is a little too heavy for the, for that, uh, the average conference. [04:14:46.291 – 04:14:51.491] And, but there's absolutely nothing in there that I'm not willing to talk about with anybody at any time. [04:14:51.491 – 04:15:01.571] Uh, I guess the point is that no matter how grievous the harm, this program, [04:15:01.571 – 04:15:08.650] the steps, will lead us through it in a way that we can do what we can do to the best of our ability. [04:15:08.650 – 04:15:17.271] And that's the pre– that's the great news of that, is that it doesn't change the reality, but it, it, it, it, it's a way to get through.

[04:15:17.271 – 04:15:18.631] So I don't care what it is. [04:15:18.631 – 04:15:25.471] I don't know of any amend that can't be made, you know, unless it's violating something that somebody has laid down. [04:15:25.471 – 04:15:28.071] Otherwise, it's my responsibility to try to do it. [04:15:28.071 – 04:15:35.151] I, I, I, I, I, I w- I went through that first because it is heavy. [04:15:35.151 – 04:15:41.791] But it makes the point, I think, that, that, that there is real resolution. [04:15:41.791 – 04:15:45.331] What we've got here is a powerful program. [04:15:45.331 – 04:15:47.751] This is not just a chat club.

[04:15:47.751 – 04:15:50.051] This is a powerful program. [04:15:50.051 – 04:16:00.211] And no matter what the bondage, no matter what the prison that we're in, there's no w- there is absolutely no way that we're locked down and can't act. [04:16:00.211 – 04:16:03.311] And, and so that… [04:16:03.311 – 04:16:09.211] It was just, it was an amazing turn of events that I was able to get to that point. [04:16:09.211 – 04:16:17.311] And, uh, and it, it, it's, like I said, it's no secret that a part of it is, you know, that I've got a life.

[04:16:17.311 – 04:16:20.851] You know, I c- I can't bring back, uh, can't change the history. [04:16:20.851 – 04:16:22.091] I can't do anything about that. [04:16:22.091 – 04:16:29.991] But what I can do is do something about the way I live, about where I put my energies, about what I try to do, about what I can do to make a difference. [04:16:29.991 – 04:16:37.891] And, and so those opportunities come, and, and so whatever it is, no matter how grim, there's, there's hope. [04:16:37.891 – 04:16:38.861] There's a way to get through. [04:16:38.861 – 04:16:42.431] It's, that's a, it's a tough situ…

[04:16:42.431 – 04:16:44.081] I was talking with somebody a little earlier. [04:16:44.081 – 04:16:54.259] Now, and I'll just mention this, that, um, the- The other side of that, the, the other side of it, the victim side of it, [04:16:54.259 – 04:16:56.739] is extremely difficult. [04:16:56.739 – 04:17:06.999] I've, I've worked with a guy for a number of years that, uh, there, there was no criminal activity involved, but he had a little boy, uh, that, uh, [04:17:06.999 – 04:17:09.419] got on a toy and drove out into the street. [04:17:09.419 – 04:17:12.079] And, and he was hit and killed by somebody.

[04:17:12.079 – 04:17:14.499] Well, there was no crime. [04:17:14.499 – 04:17:16.499] It was just a tragic accident. [04:17:16.499 – 04:17:17.579] Those things happen. [04:17:17.579 – 04:17:20.559] And so there was no arrest, there was no crime. [04:17:20.559 – 04:17:26.079] But the, the fellow that I worked with is… [04:17:26.079 – 04:17:30.939] He, he, he's absolutely consumed with bitterness and hate. [04:17:30.939 – 04:17:33.179] I mean, he's consumed. [04:17:33.179 – 04:17:43.219] He's imprisoned with that, and I've tried over and over and over to get him to make some move to see if he [04:17:43.219 – 04:17:44.879] can't bring some closure to that. [04:17:44.879 – 04:17:48.018] And at this point, he's just unable to do it.

[04:17:48.018 – 04:17:50.979] So it's a, it's a tough issue. [04:17:50.979 – 04:17:54.178] Uh, no matter which side of the table you're on, it's a tough issue. [04:17:54.178 – 04:17:59.159] But, you know, anyway, uh, uh, enough said. [04:17:59.159 – 04:18:07.199] I, I, I, I dealt with that first because it is a tremendous, tremendous hurdle. [04:18:07.199 – 04:18:11.519] Uh, but I, I just want to assure you that the program will be adequate. [04:18:11.519 – 04:18:12.499] I don't care what it is. [04:18:12.499 – 04:18:15.239] The program will be adequate to see you through. [04:18:15.239 – 04:18:16.699] Doesn't matter what it is. [04:18:16.699 – 04:18:21.439] And the other that…

[04:18:21.439 – 04:18:26.499] I, I just, uh, I tell you just a couple of things. [04:18:26.499 – 04:18:32.219] I wanted to put that in first because I want to make sure I didn't fail to, to do it if I get caught up. [04:18:32.219 – 04:18:33.239] But there's… [04:18:33.239 – 04:18:41.679] Let me, let me tell you something about, about amends that I find really useful. [04:18:41.679 – 04:18:48.359] And, and I want to re- relate back just a little bit to, uh, that, that thing I mentioned with my mother. [04:18:48.359 – 04:18:55.239] When, when I'm working with somebody doing amends, I, I like to really get to specific detail.

[04:18:55.239 – 04:19:03.219] And so what I, what I always do in making that list is I want to be real specific. [04:19:03.219 – 04:19:07.579] I want to put down the name of the person, place, or thing. [04:19:07.579 – 04:19:10.569] Full name. [04:19:10.569 – 04:19:12.119] You know, so exactly who am I talking… [04:19:12.119 – 04:19:14.379] I want to make it as personal as I possibly can. [04:19:14.379 – 04:19:19.538] Next thing I want to do is name the wrong. [04:19:19.538 – 04:19:25.359] Global guilt has no value. [04:19:25.359 – 04:19:27.139] Global guilt. [04:19:27.139 – 04:19:35.199] You know, some people want to make sweeping amends, and I believe that that global guilt kind of thing doesn't mean a thing.

[04:19:35.199 – 04:19:37.499] That's just sort of a mo- modern deal. [04:19:37.499 – 04:19:39.019] So I like to be very specific. [04:19:39.019 – 04:19:43.979] Put down the name and exactly what the ra- wrong was. [04:19:43.979 – 04:19:46.099] Whatever it was. [04:19:46.099 – 04:19:51.109] I want to be real clear that I name the wrong, exactly what happened. [04:19:51.109 – 04:19:51.919] What did I do? [04:19:51.919 – 04:19:53.159] What harm did I do? [04:19:53.159 – 04:19:56.119] So I'm real clear and specific about it. [04:19:56.119 – 04:19:59.419] And then the third thing is just the logical thing. [04:19:59.419 – 04:20:05.659] I like to write that out, uh, just to make it right.

[04:20:05.659 – 04:20:10.479] Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. [04:20:10.479 – 04:20:17.089] But those are the three things that, that I like to really get people to put that out in real clear, specific terms. [04:20:17.089 – 04:20:26.039] To deal with one amend at a time so that it's specific, you can address it that way, and take the action. [04:20:26.039 – 04:20:28.779] The, uh… [04:20:28.779 – 04:20:31.039] That's the preparation. [04:20:31.039 – 04:20:32.619] Then I know what my mission is. [04:20:32.619 – 04:20:35.599] And when I go to talk to somebody, I know what to talk about. [04:20:35.599 – 04:20:38.179] Uh, it's, it's a, it's…

[04:20:38.179 – 04:20:42.119] I know many of you've done it, but it's a tricky process, yeah. [04:20:42.119 – 04:20:49.059] I, I know what I've found in trying to, to, to make amends is that most people don't want to hear it. [04:20:49.059 – 04:20:54.279] Uh, now I'm not talking about just, just, uh, just bitterness or, or, or… [04:20:54.279 – 04:20:59.319] But most people find it a very awkward thing to… [04:20:59.319 – 04:21:09.538] And, and almost invariably, every time I go to make amends to somebody, I get this thing of sort of embarrassment and,

[04:21:09.538 – 04:21:11.118] uh, not wanting to talk about it. [04:21:11.118 – 04:21:19.319] Well, it's important for me to, to really get clear that the mission is mine. [04:21:19.319 – 04:21:22.819] The responsibility is mine. [04:21:22.819 – 04:21:27.119] The amend is mine to do. [04:21:27.119 – 04:21:34.399] You know, sometime we read this step as if it said, "Make amends with people we've harmed." It doesn't say that. [04:21:34.399 – 04:21:42.309] It says, "Make amends to the people we've harmed." You know, a lot of times, I know that I, I run into it a lot of times-

[04:21:42.508 – 04:21:51.488] with people where you try to make amends and, and, and folks will say, "Oh, that's okay. [04:21:51.488 – 04:21:53.908] Uh, not that big a deal. [04:21:53.908 – 04:21:55.688] Just don't do it anymore. [04:21:55.688 – 04:22:01.308] Keep on doing what you're doing." Well, that's nice, except it has nothing to do with amends. [04:22:01.308 – 04:22:03.528] Yeah, it's nice. [04:22:03.528 – 04:22:08.408] It just means that we know some nice people, you know, that are generous and forgiving and all that. [04:22:08.408 – 04:22:17.908] But it's not about somebody sort of placating me and saying, "There, there, that's all right, m- big son." The amend is what I carry around.

[04:22:17.908 – 04:22:18.928] Yeah. [04:22:18.928 – 04:22:29.128] And what somebody else does in terms of forgiveness or not wanting to hear it or say, "Just keep doing what you're doing," that's fine for them, but it doesn't relieve [04:22:29.128 – 04:22:30.548] what's eating me alive. [04:22:30.548 – 04:22:34.028] It doesn't relieve what's eating my lunch on a regular basis. [04:22:34.028 – 04:22:35.668] Nobody can take that away. [04:22:35.668 – 04:22:44.068] And so really important, and I've had to literally almost make people let me make amends. [04:22:44.068 – 04:22:48.188] And sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's not. [04:22:48.188 – 04:22:51.728] I know the first one that I ever made when I got out of the institution, I…

[04:22:51.728 – 04:22:54.308] For some reason, some bother you more than others. [04:22:54.308 – 04:23:04.508] And probably the smallest money that I owed anybody was a guy that when I got booted out of the military, a guy hired me on [04:23:04.508 – 04:23:09.208] first job, and he was just a wonderful guy, wonderful man, warm, loving guy. [04:23:09.208 – 04:23:11.688] And I just, I ripped him off for a little bit. [04:23:11.688 – 04:23:13.228] W- wasn't even a lot, a lot. [04:23:13.228 – 04:23:15.828] I just kind of jumped town and disappeared. [04:23:15.828 – 04:23:18.708] And that one bothered me for some reason.

[04:23:18.708 – 04:23:20.348] I mean, it was high on my list. [04:23:20.348 – 04:23:23.708] It was a fairly minor league thing, but it was not minor league in my life. [04:23:23.708 – 04:23:28.888] So now I know this is not good business unless your business is making amends. [04:23:28.888 – 04:23:30.848] I didn't have any money. [04:23:30.848 – 04:23:36.948] I borrowed the money to go make amends 'cause, 'cause man, I needed to do something. [04:23:36.948 – 04:23:38.408] And so I went over there. [04:23:38.408 – 04:23:40.568] Now I knew everybody gonna pounce on me. [04:23:40.568 – 04:23:42.498] It'd been nine years since I ripped the guy off.

[04:23:42.498 – 04:23:46.788] So I went over and, and, uh, walked in. [04:23:46.788 – 04:23:48.308] Secretary, same secretary was there. [04:23:48.308 – 04:23:48.928] I remembered her. [04:23:48.928 – 04:23:50.368] She didn't remember me. [04:23:50.368 – 04:23:55.708] Now I thought she was either gonna say, "You scoundrel, you finally came back." That's what I was looking for. [04:23:55.708 – 04:23:58.108] And she said, "Yes. [04:23:58.108 – 04:24:00.928] Can I help you?" I said, "Well, I'd like to see Mr. [04:24:00.928 – 04:24:02.068] Brown." Now it was Mr. [04:24:02.068 – 04:24:03.348] Brown, just like in the book. [04:24:03.348 – 04:24:05.258] And I said, "I'd like to see Mr. [04:24:05.258 – 04:24:13.848] Brown." She said, "Well, he's pretty busy." I said, "Well, it's about some money I owe him." And, and that changed the conversation a little bit.

[04:24:13.848 – 04:24:20.008] She said, "Well, let me see if he can see you." And so she went in, and I guess he was curious. [04:24:20.008 – 04:24:20.948] He agreed to see me. [04:24:20.948 – 04:24:26.848] Walked in, and he was a small man sitting behind a massive desk. [04:24:26.848 – 04:24:28.598] And he was a good guy, though. [04:24:28.598 – 04:24:30.488] So I went in. [04:24:30.488 – 04:24:33.388] I knew he'd jump on me. [04:24:33.388 – 04:24:34.108] He didn't know me. [04:24:34.108 – 04:24:37.608] The only guy that's worried about any of this stuff is me. [04:24:37.608 – 04:24:40.128] They were all sleeping well, doing great.

[04:24:40.128 – 04:24:50.948] So I, I told him, I said, "Well, sir, you, you may not remember it, but I ripped you off for some money when, when I worked here some time back." He said, "Is that right?" I [04:24:50.948 – 04:24:55.868] said, "Yeah, a- and I gotta pay you back." Now I hadn't told him what my mission was about. [04:24:55.868 – 04:24:57.328] I just wanted to pay him the money. [04:24:57.328 – 04:25:01.348] Uh, didn't realize that the money was the least important issue. [04:25:01.348 – 04:25:04.528] The real issue was that I violated a trust of a good man.

[04:25:04.528 – 04:25:08.708] So I, I told him that. [04:25:08.708 – 04:25:14.168] He, he said, "Look, I appreciate you coming, but I can't take that money. [04:25:14.168 – 04:25:17.368] I don't need it, and, uh, it'd screw up my bookkeeping. [04:25:17.368 – 04:25:27.428] I, I, I don't know what to do with it." And I said, "Well, I'm sorry about your bookkeeping, but I have got to pay you this money." And so finally I gave up and I said, "Well, [04:25:27.428 – 04:25:37.568] let me tell you what I'm doing." And so I told him that, um, that I was in AA and a part of our program was try to clear out the wreckage of the past and I was there to make amends.

[04:25:37.568 – 04:25:38.868] And it wasn't 'cause I was a good guy. [04:25:38.868 – 04:25:40.368] I just needed to get this done. [04:25:40.368 – 04:25:49.608] And I said, "I need you to take the money." "Do whatever you want with it." And he said, "Well, okay." So he took the money. [04:25:49.608 – 04:25:51.688] Now I don't know what he did with it. [04:25:51.688 – 04:25:52.908] I couldn't care less. [04:25:52.908 – 04:25:54.208] But when… [04:25:54.208 – 04:25:58.188] Uh, but right before he took that money, he reached up and took his glasses off and he said… [04:25:58.188 – 04:25:59.747] He was a real righteous man.

[04:25:59.747 – 04:26:03.747] He said, "Well, I'll be darned." He said, "I've been in business 40 years. [04:26:03.747 – 04:26:13.908] I have never had anything like this." I said, "Well, me either, but it's…" "But, but here we are." And, uh, so [04:26:13.908 – 04:26:15.508] yeah, we had a wonderful time. [04:26:15.508 – 04:26:20.068] A- and when I left there, man, I'm telling you, I was barely touching the sidewalk, just, just free. [04:26:20.068 – 04:26:26.748] Little, little league deal, but it's not little league when you violate somebody's trust. [04:26:26.748 – 04:26:29.568] Money didn't mean that much.

[04:26:29.568 – 04:26:33.208] And, uh, so what I made was not just amends. [04:26:33.208 – 04:26:34.968] Made a fast friendship. [04:26:34.968 – 04:26:38.548] Uh, he's b- he's a, one somebody that eats at the same place all the time. [04:26:38.548 – 04:26:48.688] And when I'm in Charlotte, where he is, uh, yeah, I haven't done it for a few years now 'cause, uh, uh, but, but I go to a restaurant that, that he, that he frequents. [04:26:48.688 – 04:26:56.028] And every time he sees me, he'll always come over and say, "How's that work going?" That's what he calls it.

[04:26:56.028 – 04:27:06.067] "How's that work going you're doing?" I say, "Just fine." So the amends, amazing that it's not just a matter of getting stuff [04:27:06.068 – 04:27:06.328] out. [04:27:06.328 – 04:27:08.248] It's getting free. [04:27:08.248 – 04:27:13.328] It's, it's about being able to build those relationships back, you know, to make things right. [04:27:13.328 – 04:27:17.708] And, and so enormously, enormously important kind of things. [04:27:17.708 – 04:27:20.108] I'm, I'm shortchanging that a little bit. [04:27:20.108 – 04:27:25.768] Let me deal with one more just right quick like 'cause, 'cause that, this is… [04:27:25.768 – 04:27:28.208] That thing I, I mentioned with my mother.

[04:27:28.208 – 04:27:38.528] You know, I mentioned earlier when I was talking about that, about the fact that this really interfered with my ability [04:27:38.528 – 04:27:39.608] to have relationships. [04:27:39.608 – 04:27:41.888] And, and that, and that was… [04:27:41.888 – 04:27:45.908] And I, I became aware of that later on as, as I was going and started to be aware of that. [04:27:45.908 – 04:27:50.387] I was also aware that I needed to make amends to, to, um, to my mother. [04:27:50.387 – 04:27:55.880] I was also aware that she, I was her little baby boy, and that she would forgive me for anything.

[04:27:55.880 – 04:27:56.639] She always had. [04:27:56.639 – 04:28:02.360] And when I started to make amends to her, you talk about awkward, fumbling stuff. [04:28:02.360 – 04:28:04.020] Now, she didn't wanna hear it. [04:28:04.020 – 04:28:05.260] She didn't wanna hear it. [04:28:05.260 – 04:28:10.820] I, I remember one time I was trying to make a little financial amends, and she said, "I don't want that money. [04:28:10.820 – 04:28:12.940] You don't owe it to me." I said, "Well, yes, I do. [04:28:12.940 – 04:28:13.390] I took it. [04:28:13.390 – 04:28:23.480] Whether you know it or not, I took it." And she said, "Well, you sent me all that money while you were in the Army." I said,

[04:28:23.480 – 04:28:30.940] "What money?" Apparently, I'd got drunk and signed up to send money home, and didn't even know it was gone. [04:28:30.940 – 04:28:33.240] So she, she's getting all this money. [04:28:33.240 – 04:28:35.880] My first instinct was say, "Give it back." You know? [04:28:35.880 – 04:28:39.880] But I didn't say it. [04:28:39.880 – 04:28:44.080] I, I didn't say it, but that was my instinct, you know. [04:28:44.080 – 04:28:46.950] And, and so I, I had no clue, you know? [04:28:46.950 – 04:28:50.440] Even drunk, I do a chivalrous act once in a while. [04:28:50.440 – 04:28:54.960] And but, but you know, that was a tough thing to do.

[04:28:54.960 – 04:28:58.600] And, and so when making amends means to change. [04:28:58.600 – 04:29:00.980] Now, my mother didn't change. [04:29:00.980 – 04:29:06.220] She died a, a, a, a mother who just mothered too much. [04:29:06.220 – 04:29:06.480] Yeah. [04:29:06.480 – 04:29:08.500] And, and she was a wonderful person. [04:29:08.500 – 04:29:09.960] You couldn't get a better one. [04:29:09.960 – 04:29:11.420] It was just more than I could handle. [04:29:11.420 – 04:29:16.520] And so when we started to, to amend our relationship, I didn't negotiate with her. [04:29:16.520 – 04:29:19.880] You know, I established the lines that we could operate in. [04:29:19.880 – 04:29:26.100] And so when I would go to her house, you know, if I'd let her dictate the, the thing, I would be staying there a month.

[04:29:26.100 – 04:29:35.760] But couldn't do that, so I started setting specific times on you, what I would do, how long I'm gonna stay, what I'm gonna do, and, and, and handle it like that. [04:29:35.760 – 04:29:37.600] It amended relationship. [04:29:37.600 – 04:29:40.100] And we started to get along. [04:29:40.100 – 04:29:41.720] Now, I wasn't good at it. [04:29:41.720 – 04:29:42.440] I overdid it. [04:29:42.440 – 04:29:48.920] I, I started to make a little bit of money, and sometimes it's trying to make amends, you can make a mess. [04:29:48.920 – 04:29:54.080] And, and so I decided I'd done so much bad stuff, I was gonna buy her a home.

[04:29:54.080 – 04:29:59.000] And, uh, I went up to her town, and I didn't bother to ask her if she wanted one. [04:29:59.000 – 04:30:00.660] I just knew she would. [04:30:00.660 – 04:30:02.660] I hated the place, so I don't know why she wouldn't. [04:30:02.660 – 04:30:07.780] And so I just loaded her up and I said, "Mother, let's go look at some property." I didn't tell her what for. [04:30:07.780 – 04:30:12.019] Says, "Go look around town and you'll see what's happening." So I took her to a whole lot of places. [04:30:12.019 – 04:30:15.420] They were building houses and, uh, you know, I'd point out some and she'd…

[04:30:15.420 – 04:30:19.600] I'd say, "How do you like that?" She's, "Oh, I like it." So I finished my tour, you know, was pointing out houses. [04:30:19.600 – 04:30:20.420] She liked them all. [04:30:20.420 – 04:30:30.940] Got back home and I said, "Well, what'd you think of those houses?" She said, "Well, they were nice." I says, "Any one you like particularly?" And she said, "Well, no." And [04:30:30.940 – 04:30:41.040] I said, "Well, I'd like to buy you one." And she said, "What for?" She said, "I don't really want a house." I said, "You

[04:30:41.040 – 04:30:43.620] mean you don't want a new home?" She said, "No. [04:30:43.620 – 04:30:47.380] Why?" She said, "I like where I am." Well, now, that wasn't good enough. [04:30:47.380 – 04:30:52.100] You know, I wanna make sure I'm gonna just not make amends, I'm gonna amend her life. [04:30:52.100 – 04:30:53.500] And that's not the deal. [04:30:53.500 – 04:30:57.080] And so anyway, that thing I… [04:30:57.080 – 04:31:02.680] I'll tell you one thing that happened in that, 'cause it's not always smooth sailing. [04:31:02.680 – 04:31:04.560] That really… [04:31:04.560 – 04:31:07.540] My, my mother was geared to what she did. [04:31:07.540 – 04:31:09.540] That wasn't elected behavior.

[04:31:09.540 – 04:31:11.100] That's how she was geared. [04:31:11.100 – 04:31:21.120] And so when I started to deal, what I was doing was growing up, and f- and for, for my mother, [04:31:21.120 – 04:31:22.980] that was a troubling fact. [04:31:22.980 – 04:31:30.200] And as she started to see me emerge as a grown man, she found that very difficult to deal with. [04:31:30.200 – 04:31:41.000] And as much as she loved me, uh, in the midst of all of that kind of making amends, one day she looked me in the eye and [04:31:41.000 – 04:31:46.880] she said, "Son, I would rather see you back in prison than like you are." Now, that hurts.

[04:31:46.880 – 04:31:48.209] Mm-hmm. [04:31:48.209 – 04:31:49.460] But she didn't mean that. [04:31:49.460 – 04:31:57.980] You know, she was a woman that was dealing with something that she couldn't understand, so she hit with the only thing she knew to hit with. [04:31:57.980 – 04:32:03.100] What I had to remember is that I'm the guy with the program. [04:32:03.100 – 04:32:04.860] This is my responsibility. [04:32:04.860 – 04:32:15.420] I was dealing with somebody who was not equipped for the discussion, and so I had to be patient and not expect some kind of a, of magical [04:32:15.420 – 04:32:19.560] response to that, but to be patient and help her get through that.

[04:32:19.560 – 04:32:25.800] And so amends often entails more than just, "I did this. [04:32:25.800 – 04:32:26.540] I'll do this. [04:32:26.540 – 04:32:28.400] We okay." It, more than that. [04:32:28.400 – 04:32:30.140] It was a modifying of a relationship. [04:32:30.140 – 04:32:36.550] And, and I'll tell you the thing that I, I certainly didn't want it, uh, didn't particularly think about it, but- [04:32:36.678 – 04:32:46.438] A strange thing happens in recovery, might happen to some of you, that as we recover and grow in responsibility, amazing thing. [04:32:46.438 – 04:32:54.897] I was the embarrassment of my entire family, and I became the head of my entire family.

[04:32:54.897 – 04:32:57.558] It's not an elected position. [04:32:57.558 – 04:33:00.418] It's just something that people kind of deferentially put you there. [04:33:00.418 – 04:33:02.218] I didn't want that job. [04:33:02.218 – 04:33:07.658] Um, but that's just part of what happens with responsible recovery. [04:33:07.658 – 04:33:11.578] Things will tend to happen, and sometimes it's a bad one. [04:33:11.578 – 04:33:17.398] Uh, so I had to make some calls, uh, in, in that deal when she started to get some health problems. [04:33:17.398 – 04:33:18.778] She started to have some strokes. [04:33:18.778 – 04:33:22.678] We realized she was not gonna be able to function.

[04:33:22.678 – 04:33:23.798] We had to put her in a nursing home. [04:33:23.798 – 04:33:25.378] My mother had always… [04:33:25.378 – 04:33:33.118] It doesn't, may not mean anything in Ohio, but my mother had always told my sister and I, "Don't ever put us in," what she called, the poor house. [04:33:33.118 – 04:33:36.738] If you've had to put anybody in a facility, you know it's not the poor house. [04:33:36.738 – 04:33:38.978] And so she said no. [04:33:38.978 – 04:33:40.818] And she s- she, uh… [04:33:40.818 – 04:33:50.918] So we had the medical conference, and, um, I didn't even know the docs, but they're going around the table, and they're looking, and they, they happened to settle on me and said,

[04:33:50.918 – 04:34:01.038] "She's gonna have to go in a facility, and I think you're the one that's gonna have to handle it." Well, I knew that if I told my mother she was gonna have to go in a facility, there was gonna be a big war [04:34:01.038 – 04:34:01.538] going on. [04:34:01.538 – 04:34:10.758] So I went into her room, and I d- and I chatted for a minute, and I said, "Mother, gonna have to talk about something, that, uh, y- you're not gonna be able to stay in this facility.

[04:34:10.758 – 04:34:17.658] We're gonna have to put you in a nursing home." And I swear to God, you'd have thought I invited her to a dance. [04:34:17.658 – 04:34:21.568] And she said, "Okay." And I thought, my God, this is… [04:34:21.568 – 04:34:22.718] I'm hearing things, you know. [04:34:22.718 – 04:34:26.318] So I went out in the, in the hall, and I said, "I conned her. [04:34:26.318 – 04:34:36.498] I know I conned her because she's not gonna respond like that." So I went back in, and I said, "Mother, let me run this by you one more time 'cause I'm not sure you understood,

[04:34:36.498 – 04:34:43.018] that we're gonna have to put you in a nursing home." She said, "I know." And I thought, my God, you know, prayers are answered. [04:34:43.018 – 04:34:46.357] Uh, thank you very much, folks. [04:34:46.357 – 04:34:46.978] Good morning. [04:34:46.978 – 04:34:48.038] It's great to see you. [04:34:48.038 – 04:34:48.968] Good morning. [04:34:48.968 – 04:34:51.618] And, uh, this is, this is not an announcement. [04:34:51.618 – 04:34:52.218] It's a warning. [04:34:52.218 – 04:34:54.278] Jackie is in the building. [04:34:54.278 – 04:34:58.888] Oh. [04:34:58.888 – 04:34:59.308] Yes, he is. [04:34:59.308 – 04:34:59.658] Thank you. [04:34:59.658 – 04:35:02.358] I know, you guys thought I was already getting cross-eyed looking at that thing. [04:35:02.358 – 04:35:04.958] Oh, it's great to see everybody.

[04:35:04.958 – 04:35:09.738] This is a, this is an unusually, uh, large group for Sunday. [04:35:09.738 – 04:35:13.458] You know, the Sunday is normally is for just the hungry and the hardy. [04:35:13.458 – 04:35:14.498] That, that… [04:35:14.498 – 04:35:20.278] Everybody else sort of falls out from a tree just, uh, from whatever, exhausted. [04:35:20.278 – 04:35:22.118] So it is great to see you. [04:35:22.118 – 04:35:25.998] I'm gonna talk so fast this morning you'll think I'm from Ohio. [04:35:25.998 – 04:35:31.278] Uh, we got a, got a little bit of a, a little bit… [04:35:31.278 – 04:35:33.938] We, we don't have a real tight schedule, but I got a, I got a…

[04:35:33.938 – 04:35:40.038] Nothing, nothing major league, but I got a little bit of surgery in the morning, and I wanna be in good fighting shape. [04:35:40.038 – 04:35:44.158] Because when somebody comes at me with a knife, I wanna be ready to fight back. [04:35:44.158 – 04:35:48.548] So, uh, so we, we gonna try to get back a decent hour. [04:35:48.548 – 04:35:51.837] An old man has to go to bed before dark hits. [04:35:51.837 – 04:35:58.458] It is great to see everybody, and I've thoroughly enjoyed the weekend. [04:35:58.458 – 04:35:59.918] It's, uh, just been great.

[04:35:59.918 – 04:36:01.058] Just a really good… [04:36:01.058 – 04:36:05.518] You know, particularly enjoyed the time between meetings where we just get a chance to visit. [04:36:05.518 – 04:36:15.578] Uh, what is, what I was, uh, told him on the way over here this morning that it's just, the amazing thing about this program is [04:36:15.578 – 04:36:20.718] that I don't think there's anything in it, there's not a page in the book you couldn't spend a week on. [04:36:20.718 – 04:36:21.288] Right. [04:36:21.288 – 04:36:25.438] And so the more you look at it, by God, there's just no end to where you can go.

[04:36:25.438 – 04:36:33.318] As I was just sorta, sorta getting fresh this morning about things that are important to me and those, and those last three steps. [04:36:33.318 – 04:36:42.158] And, and as I wanna, I wanna go through them and just by, by way of introduction of, of that, it's kinda like I've hinted at a, a few times over the weekend. [04:36:42.158 – 04:36:47.718] You know, it, it doesn't say transition time a- anywhere in there. [04:36:47.718 – 04:36:51.378] But, but y- I know most of you are familiar with the book.

[04:36:51.378 – 04:36:59.838] And, and when you go through the promises, you know, th- those promises almost sound like pie-in-the-sky optimism that, uh… [04:36:59.838 – 04:37:09.858] But, but what it says is that if you've been, if you've, if you've done the work thoroughly up to this point, which means going through a- amends, that you'll be amazed [04:37:09.858 – 04:37:11.358] before you're halfway through with it. [04:37:11.358 – 04:37:18.358] And, and then it lists 12 unbelievable things that will have started to happen. [04:37:18.358 – 04:37:23.058] And, uh, and it just really does sound like pie-in-the-sky stuff, but it's very real.

[04:37:23.058 – 04:37:30.158] And what those promises do is sort of tell what the payoff is for the actions of those first steps. [04:37:30.158 – 04:37:40.258] Now, this is just, na- naturally it's gonna be just my interpretation of it, but I, I think the game changes when you get through with the promises. [04:37:40.258 – 04:37:50.298] And it switches from doing the things that I need to do for my own wellness and healing and all of that, [04:37:50.298 – 04:37:58.118] in the sense of working on things that are troubling to me, and switches in to focus on others.

[04:37:58.118 – 04:38:03.838] And, uh, and I think that's a kind of an important, important juncture. [04:38:03.838 – 04:38:13.578] Uh, it, I, I had an old buddy down in Raleigh years ago that, um, he always said, said something that, that made an awful lot of sense to me. [04:38:13.578 – 04:38:18.078] He said, "AA is a selfish program." We all acknowledge that. [04:38:18.078 – 04:38:19.358] It is a selfish program. [04:38:19.358 – 04:38:28.257] I, I had an old buddy that used to do a, a lot of good work at AA, and, and I've heard him say a lot of times that…

[04:38:28.257 – 04:38:33.838] And I know it was a rhetorical statement, but it was always troubling to me every time he said it. [04:38:33.838 – 04:38:43.466] Because he would say to a group, "If one of us has to drink again-" I hope it's me instead of you. [04:38:43.466 – 04:38:49.746] Well now, I tell you, that's a wonderful sentiment, but you ain't gonna hear me say that now. [04:38:49.746 – 04:38:54.246] If somebody go, gotta go down in this crowd, I'm sorry. [04:38:54.246 – 04:38:58.186] But I hope I'm the last dude standing, I tell you that .

[04:38:58.186 – 04:39:00.586] So it is a selfish program, bottom line. [04:39:00.586 – 04:39:10.986] But, but what I have to, to, to understand if I'm gonna get full, full benefit of this deal, is that it's the weirdest selfishness in the world. [04:39:10.986 – 04:39:16.886] It's about 10% gimme, and it's about 90% give. [04:39:16.886 – 04:39:21.226] And if I don't learn that, I think I miss the whole deal. [04:39:21.226 – 04:39:27.806] Because I have to learn that this is not a selfish thing in the sense of it's always about me. [04:39:27.806 – 04:39:34.446] I have to learn that my greatest benefit comes from actively reaching out and helping others.

[04:39:34.446 – 04:39:39.226] That's what keeps me green and growing and vigorous and rewarded and all that stuff. [04:39:39.226 – 04:39:40.716] And you, you… [04:39:40.716 – 04:39:50.946] One of little thing, I'm sure you've heard it, but it's a good reminder to me about the, the, uh, the two bodies of water over in the Middle East that they're shooting over right now, but they're there. [04:39:50.946 – 04:39:54.926] They're two bodies of water, the Dead Sea and Sea of Galilee. [04:39:54.926 – 04:40:02.006] They're in the same geographical area, same climate, same rainfall, same everything, except for one thing.

[04:40:02.006 – 04:40:04.666] The Dead Sea is properly named. [04:40:04.666 – 04:40:05.226] It's dead. [04:40:05.226 – 04:40:08.086] It supports absolutely no life whatsoever. [04:40:08.086 – 04:40:10.106] No grass, no fish, no nothing. [04:40:10.106 – 04:40:20.106] Sea of Galilee, not far away, is, is, is, is alive and vibrant and, and supports life, and people fish there [04:40:20.106 – 04:40:20.566] and all that. [04:40:20.566 – 04:40:21.776] And what's the difference? [04:40:21.776 – 04:40:24.006] The Dead Sea has no outlet. [04:40:24.006 – 04:40:25.906] You know, the Dead Sea is a dead end. [04:40:25.906 – 04:40:31.706] And what comes is a stagnant, vile pool re- rather than a, than a vibrant living thing.

[04:40:31.706 – 04:40:33.946] And I think the same thing happens to us. [04:40:33.946 – 04:40:44.306] If we stop, if we, if we can't get to the point where we are channel, and the, and the energy flows through us to others, and then we get the feedback, [04:40:44.306 – 04:40:45.006] we just miss it. [04:40:45.006 – 04:40:49.906] If, if you think it's all about me, uh, you got Dead Sea is a pretty good, pretty good analogy. [04:40:49.906 – 04:40:53.226] And so I like to keep that in mind when I start talking about these steps.

[04:40:53.226 – 04:41:01.326] I don't think it means I become a missionary, but just a realist, that I do this. [04:41:01.326 – 04:41:10.566] When I welcome a newcomer into A, I always tell them that I need them more than they need me. [04:41:10.566 – 04:41:14.206] I know they never believe that. [04:41:14.206 – 04:41:15.206] I know that. [04:41:15.206 – 04:41:23.486] Say, "What are you kidding, man?" I tell you, "The police don't even want me." But I say, "I need you more than you need me." They never believe it. [04:41:23.486 – 04:41:25.626] My prayer is that I believe it.

[04:41:25.626 – 04:41:27.266] I believe it. [04:41:27.266 – 04:41:35.446] If I ever get to the point I'm some Daddy Warbucks helping people and Mahatma Gandhi of the humanity, and I'm, I'm in trouble. [04:41:35.446 – 04:41:41.426] And so I would need to know that I need that because it's what keeps me hooked in and moving. [04:41:41.426 – 04:41:47.486] So with that introduction, that, uh, let, let me get into those, those, those steps a little bit. [04:41:47.486 – 04:41:50.406] Um, in the… [04:41:50.406 – 04:41:52.286] I'm not gonna beat you over the head with a book too much.

[04:41:52.286 – 04:41:56.026] I'd, I'd rather beat you over the head with what I'm thinking about. [04:41:56.026 – 04:42:01.026] You know, you gonna get beat over the head about something. [04:42:01.026 – 04:42:05.326] Uh, there's one place in here that's on… [04:42:05.326 – 04:42:12.826] This is not on exactly on ten, but it, it's the same sentiment in, in the thing about the, the amends deal. [04:42:12.826 – 04:42:14.466] There's a little thing on, on seventy-seven. [04:42:14.466 – 04:42:15.626] I know everybody here has seen it. [04:42:15.626 – 04:42:21.266] At the moment, we are trying to put our lives in order, and that's during that amends process.

[04:42:21.266 – 04:42:22.166] Sure we are. [04:42:22.166 – 04:42:25.326] But this is not an end in itself. [04:42:25.326 – 04:42:31.486] Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and to people about us. [04:42:31.486 – 04:42:33.146] And, and as… [04:42:33.146 – 04:42:34.406] I think that's a great sentiment. [04:42:34.406 – 04:42:36.146] That's on seventy-seven. [04:42:36.146 – 04:42:41.986] And it sort of sets the stage for, uh, for, uh, those last three steps. [04:42:41.986 – 04:42:52.266] And in the, uh, in that transition, uh, uh, let me spend just a little bit of time in the, in the book to, to,

[04:42:52.266 – 04:42:54.986] to tell you some things I think sort of key that thought to me. [04:42:54.986 – 04:43:01.365] That ten, the way it's written, it sounds that as if it were all about inventory. [04:43:01.365 – 04:43:09.326] But there's a, there's a real kind of a tone about that inventory that I think's important, that, that… [04:43:09.326 – 04:43:11.826] Here's what it said. [04:43:11.826 – 04:43:17.766] "We, we suggest we continue to take personal inventory and continue to set right any new mistakes as we go along. [04:43:17.766 – 04:43:25.186] We vigorously commence this way of living as we cleaned up the past." So God, we, we've understood that.

[04:43:25.186 – 04:43:30.366] You know, but the real sentiment of this thing is that we've been restored. [04:43:30.366 – 04:43:30.756] We've got- [04:43:30.955 – 04:43:32.735] Our critical step going. [04:43:32.735 – 04:43:33.875] The bleeding has stopped. [04:43:33.875 – 04:43:37.515] We've started to feel some energies and some juices and some worth. [04:43:37.515 – 04:43:41.795] And, and what we're restored to though is life. [04:43:41.795 – 04:43:48.494] We're not restored to some supernatural state where we transcend life and rise above the problem. [04:43:48.494 – 04:43:52.735] We get restored to life, and it is life like every other human. [04:43:52.735 – 04:43:55.295] Sometimes it's great. [04:43:55.295 – 04:43:56.875] You know, just like this.

[04:43:56.875 – 04:43:58.615] You know, I get pumped up at something like this. [04:43:58.615 – 04:44:02.475] Now, I'll probably be talking old man to death while, while he's driving me home. [04:44:02.475 – 04:44:06.995] 'Cause I get pumped up, and, and, and life is great. [04:44:06.995 – 04:44:10.835] You know, I think everybody on 77 is gonna get out the way and let us get on down there. [04:44:10.835 – 04:44:14.115] But, but they'll get me back to reality pretty quick about that. [04:44:14.115 – 04:44:17.135] But, but life sometimes is great. [04:44:17.135 – 04:44:19.435] You know, that I just feel so good, I feel left-handed.

[04:44:19.435 – 04:44:20.735] I, it is wonderful. [04:44:20.735 – 04:44:23.435] And those are peaks. [04:44:23.435 – 04:44:28.375] But there are other times when it's just as sharply the other way. [04:44:28.375 – 04:44:30.655] Sometimes it pure sucks. [04:44:30.655 – 04:44:38.095] I mean, I mean, it just is bad news, that it gets grim and dark and say, "Oh my God, what's the point?" You know. [04:44:38.095 – 04:44:42.395] But most of the time, life just goes on, and it's just sort of… [04:44:42.395 – 04:44:44.915] It's not black or white, it's just sort of gray. [04:44:44.915 – 04:44:45.975] It just sort of goes on.

[04:44:45.975 – 04:44:46.575] It's life. [04:44:46.575 – 04:44:47.315] We go to work. [04:44:47.315 – 04:44:50.835] If we wanna eat, we go to work and do, do the stuff of life. [04:44:50.835 – 04:45:00.855] And, and, and so the, the, the tone of, of the step is that, and we're living life, there are gonna be times when we [04:45:00.855 – 04:45:01.375] goof. [04:45:01.375 – 04:45:03.115] That's just human. [04:45:03.115 – 04:45:05.615] I mean, every human being's gonna err. [04:45:05.615 – 04:45:11.515] But the refer– the inventory in 10, the way I look at it, it's a quick fix. [04:45:11.515 – 04:45:16.915] You know, we don't need to go into Freudian analysis just because we did something stupid, you know.

[04:45:16.915 – 04:45:20.435] But all you do is just say, "Hey, I goofed, man. [04:45:20.435 – 04:45:21.575] I'm sorry about that. [04:45:21.575 – 04:45:31.515] Let's straighten it out." And, and I think that's exactly, to me, that's the s- the s- the tone and the tempo of what this 10 steps about. [04:45:31.515 – 04:45:41.495] It's not about continuing study of me and analy– like the buddy I mentioned, who analyzes, twenty-five years sober, analyzes every movement of every day. [04:45:41.495 – 04:45:43.295] Come on. [04:45:43.295 – 04:45:44.475] Come on. [04:45:44.475 – 04:45:47.585] You know, this one is about moving on, getting on with the business.

[04:45:47.585 – 04:45:54.895] Let it straighten it up so that it gets taken care of and doesn't do like that resentment, turn inward and get infected. [04:45:54.895 – 04:45:56.135] So take care of it. [04:45:56.135 – 04:45:58.075] Deal, deal and get it out of the way. [04:45:58.075 – 04:46:01.975] But then there, there's one other statement, and I think, then I think I'll close the book maybe. [04:46:01.975 – 04:46:12.305] That we, we, we, if, if we've harmed anyone, when these crop up, you know, when these old behaviors crop up, you know, we're rude, crude,

[04:46:12.305 – 04:46:14.715] or, you know, push somebody around, whatever. [04:46:14.715 – 04:46:23.835] When, when those things happen, we ask God to remove that thing that's sticking its ugly head up again. [04:46:23.835 – 04:46:26.015] Then action. [04:46:26.015 – 04:46:33.515] We discuss it with someone immediately and make amends quickly. [04:46:33.515 – 04:46:38.315] Not long-term Gestalt therapy. [04:46:38.315 – 04:46:40.055] Just, just make amends. [04:46:40.055 – 04:46:40.895] Take some action. [04:46:40.895 – 04:46:42.875] If we've harmed anyone. [04:46:42.875 – 04:46:44.915] Now, here's the key to me. [04:46:44.915 – 04:46:50.735] Then we resolutely turn our thoughts to someone we can help. [04:46:50.735 – 04:46:57.235] Not linger in the past and not agonize over the s- nuances and stuff.

[04:46:57.235 – 04:46:59.875] We take care of it and move on. [04:46:59.875 – 04:47:02.095] We immediately turn our attention to someone we've helped. [04:47:02.095 – 04:47:08.995] And to me, that's that whole sentiment about the inventory and, and, and all that it means. [04:47:08.995 – 04:47:18.275] Uh, uh, let's push a little bit on the other side of that in, uh, in, in, in, in taking care of that. [04:47:18.275 – 04:47:26.615] But in the important message in the first paragraph, I am gonna have to go back to the book 'cause I don't wanna tell you, state this wrong.

[04:47:26.615 – 04:47:31.615] I mean, God knows the world hinges on whether I say this just right or not. [04:47:31.615 – 04:47:39.235] I'm sure somebody will correct me very quickly if I say, if I don't get it right. [04:47:39.235 – 04:47:49.475] Uh, but I want to, I want to, I want to get it out of the book because I really, I think there's key language in it for this whole thing that's, that's triggered in this step. [04:47:49.475 – 04:47:59.395] It, it, it's talking about taking that inventory, and it, it, this is the thing after that we've c- we've commenced this way of living.

[04:47:59.395 – 04:48:04.055] Now we have entered the world of the spirit, yeah. [04:48:04.055 – 04:48:06.135] We, we, we've got a spiritual life. [04:48:06.135 – 04:48:07.415] We've got a higher power. [04:48:07.415 – 04:48:09.895] We've got a way of life that's working. [04:48:09.895 – 04:48:11.875] We've entered the world of spirit. [04:48:11.875 – 04:48:17.075] We're no longer running on just self-control and self-will and all this kind of business. [04:48:17.075 – 04:48:21.835] We got a power, and we got a spiritual life that we can, that we can live. [04:48:21.835 – 04:48:25.555] So, so we got a different way of living. [04:48:25.555 – 04:48:34.335] Our next function, our next function is to grow in understanding and effectiveness.

[04:48:34.335 – 04:48:37.535] Now, you would have your own definition. [04:48:37.535 – 04:48:38.315] I'll tell you mine. [04:48:38.315 – 04:48:44.255] I don't think that means deep insight about myself. [04:48:44.255 – 04:48:49.395] I don't think that means additional deep-seeded thinking about me. [04:48:49.395 – 04:48:59.435] I think it has to do with how do I function well in my service life with the folks I would be of [04:48:59.435 – 04:49:00.495] maximum service to. [04:49:00.495 – 04:49:05.895] Very important for me to, to grow in understanding and effectiveness. [04:49:05.895 – 04:49:11.735] Take that newcomer that I always try to greet with the s- the salutation I just cited.

[04:49:11.735 – 04:49:21.735] When I look at that revolving door of how many people come into AA and go out, I don't think it's enough [04:49:21.735 – 04:49:23.475] for me to just bemoan that. [04:49:23.475 – 04:49:27.795] I don't think it's enough for me to just say, "Well, they just don't do it like that anymore. [04:49:27.795 – 04:49:29.535] They're just different kind of drunks" or something. [04:49:29.535 – 04:49:30.835] I don't believe any of that. [04:49:30.835 – 04:49:35.259] Yeah, I believe they're the same f- folks we are, folks with wrecked lives. [04:49:35.259 – 04:49:45.459] And so when, when I see that tragic kind of parade of people walking through here and leaving as if they were untouched, that

[04:49:45.459 – 04:49:46.339] troubles me. [04:49:46.339 – 04:49:51.199] And so I think what this message is, is to grow in understanding. [04:49:51.199 – 04:49:51.919] What is it? [04:49:51.919 – 04:49:57.959] What is it that makes it difficult for this person to catch what we've got? [04:49:57.959 – 04:50:07.959] And I think it's, it's, it's my responsibility to exhaust all of my, uh, capability to see that I work [04:50:07.959 – 04:50:14.739] with people adequately to give them a good stronghold in this thing, and not just demonize the newcomer. [04:50:14.739 – 04:50:18.079] But important for me, I wanna understand that. [04:50:18.079 – 04:50:22.279] What is it that causes somebody to come in here and not be able to comprehend?

[04:50:22.279 – 04:50:23.319] We see it all the time. [04:50:23.319 – 04:50:26.739] And I wanna understand that. [04:50:26.739 – 04:50:28.279] You know, if… [04:50:28.279 – 04:50:38.619] And, and there's just a whole bunch of stuff related to that to talk about a little bit, but very important to kinda understand, if I'm gonna be effective, I've got to understand the problem. [04:50:38.619 – 04:50:46.679] And effectiveness is a word that, that, that, that doesn't get a lot of utility i- in our program. [04:50:46.679 – 04:50:50.819] Ain't nobody here but us, so I'll say it. [04:50:50.819 – 04:50:55.919] We, we're probably one of the most re- ritualistic groups of people I've ever seen.

[04:50:55.919 – 04:50:58.239] I mean, we are a flat ritual people. [04:50:58.239 – 04:51:08.099] And there's a old joke going around that's sad but true, that if we do something one time, it becomes a sacred tradition. [04:51:08.099 – 04:51:13.389] And it doesn't make any difference whether it works or not, you know. [04:51:13.389 – 04:51:22.779] That we read stuff, and I swear, if you watch a crowd when the reading's going on, you could read it in Farsi, nobody'd know the difference. [04:51:22.779 – 04:51:25.439] You know, it's just words flying by, you know.

[04:51:25.439 – 04:51:26.719] We do it anyway. [04:51:26.719 – 04:51:29.198] We, we do it 'cause we do it. [04:51:29.198 – 04:51:32.819] Say, "Why do y'all do it this way?" "Well, it was like that when I got here. [04:51:32.819 – 04:51:36.539] We've always done it that way." You know, those are just things. [04:51:36.539 – 04:51:39.978] They ought to be slogans on the wall, because that's part of our language. [04:51:39.978 – 04:51:42.719] And so it doesn't matter whether it works, we just do it. [04:51:42.719 – 04:51:52.979] And effectiveness, if I really wanna be of maximum service, if I really wanna be helpful to other alcoholics, effectiveness

[04:51:52.979 – 04:51:54.659] is an awfully important measure. [04:51:54.659 – 04:51:56.459] Is what I'm doing working? [04:51:56.459 – 04:51:58.639] I, I'll give you an example. [04:51:58.639 – 04:52:01.379] I, I think I've used this up here with you guys last year, Jack. [04:52:01.379 – 04:52:04.699] Jack has not had a drink since we did that workshop. [04:52:04.699 – 04:52:07.059] I don't believe. [04:52:07.059 – 04:52:07.499] I don't… [04:52:07.499 – 04:52:09.019] Best I can tell. [04:52:09.019 – 04:52:15.499] I w- I went up to, uh, to a town up in the Northeast. [04:52:15.499 – 04:52:20.268] Real, real sophisticated, uh, intellectual community. [04:52:20.268 – 04:52:23.139] And, uh, they really are. [04:52:23.139 – 04:52:24.839] It was home of Princeton University.

[04:52:24.839 – 04:52:27.599] I mean, God knows that's the elitist, if you ever saw it. [04:52:27.599 – 04:52:37.659] And the guys wanted me to come up and speak at the anni- the 11th anniversary of a group that was developed for the sole purpose of working with people who had [04:52:37.659 – 04:52:39.219] been mandated into AA. [04:52:39.219 – 04:52:44.399] Because they were troubled that folks just didn't seem to connect well with it. [04:52:44.399 – 04:52:45.939] They just didn't seem to do well. [04:52:45.939 – 04:52:46.619] They didn't seem to… [04:52:46.619 – 04:52:55.079] Uh, so they started this group so that they could deliberately give the kind of welcome and introduction that might be useful.

[04:52:55.079 – 04:53:04.719] So I'm talking to the two guys that were the, were the original members of that group, and I ask them what to me is a kind of a normal question. [04:53:04.719 – 04:53:10.678] I said, "Well, how's it working?" And both of them said, "Oh, fine, fine, fine. [04:53:10.678 – 04:53:15.999] Yeah." And one of them said, "Now what do you mean by that?" A good question. [04:53:15.999 – 04:53:26.079] I said, "What I mean by that is, are people getting into recovery who get introduced in this group?" I mean, that's a fairly logical

[04:53:26.079 – 04:53:26.699] question, isn't it? [04:53:26.699 – 04:53:29.759] They looked at each other. [04:53:29.759 – 04:53:40.079] One guy said, "Do you know anybody?" He said, "No." He said, "I don't either." Now [04:53:40.079 – 04:53:40.699] come on. [04:53:40.699 – 04:53:42.499] Yeah, I don't care what you're selling. [04:53:42.499 – 04:53:46.069] If you don't sell something in 11 years- … [04:53:46.069 – 04:53:47.659] you better take a look at the product. [04:53:47.659 – 04:53:48.118] You know what I mean? [04:53:48.118 – 04:53:49.178] My God, man. [04:53:49.178 – 04:53:51.459] That's– But isn't that crazy? [04:53:51.459 – 04:53:56.999] You know, we get caught up in it, and because it's a holy mission we think our job done.

[04:53:56.999 – 04:53:57.459] You know, just… [04:53:57.459 – 04:54:02.229] Well, the mission ain't very successful if the patient dies, you know. [04:54:02.229 – 04:54:03.849] Surgeon was brilliant, but… [04:54:03.849 – 04:54:05.379] Well, I don't wanna talk about that right now. [04:54:05.379 – 04:54:12.039] I hope my surgeon's a klutz. [04:54:12.039 – 04:54:12.859] And we… [04:54:12.859 – 04:54:14.839] No, no, he'll do great. [04:54:14.839 – 04:54:15.519] I know he will. [04:54:15.519 – 04:54:24.279] But, but, but you think about that. [04:54:24.279 – 04:54:25.049] You know, think how- [04:54:25.286 – 04:54:25.866] We do that. [04:54:25.866 – 04:54:31.206] And, and, and, and it's a vital question if we really want to be of service. [04:54:31.206 – 04:54:36.646] I mean, if we just wanna play roles, and you know, and act like, act like we're doing something, fine.

[04:54:36.646 – 04:54:41.166] You know, if we just wanna go ahead and take care of our duties and do our rituals, yeah, good. [04:54:41.166 – 04:54:51.266] But if we genuinely want to give somebody a fighting chance to make it in recovery, I think it's very important for me to, not [04:54:51.266 – 04:55:01.466] just us or the general service conference or anything like that, it's important for me to try to understand to the best of my ability, what's [04:55:01.466 – 04:55:02.386] it gonna take here? [04:55:02.386 – 04:55:04.246] What are, what are we doing that's not working?

[04:55:04.246 – 04:55:10.286] Old folks and I, on the way up here, talked about the prison group we sponsor. [04:55:10.286 – 04:55:17.086] And, and our concern is that at the surface level, it looks good. [04:55:17.086 – 04:55:18.506] Looks good. [04:55:18.506 – 04:55:20.546] The folks are doing things and stuff like that. [04:55:20.546 – 04:55:29.066] But when you listen to the guys, deep down you don't find that solid, committed connection that's vital. [04:55:29.066 – 04:55:34.306] And if a guy walks out of there and he's not ready to fight the fight of his life, he's screwed. [04:55:34.306 – 04:55:40.566] And so our challenge is, how can we ratchet that down to a deeper, more effective level?

[04:55:40.566 – 04:55:47.826] That's how we enjoyed the scenery on the way to Ohio, was talking about how to get folks out of the penitentiary or get them to stay. [04:55:47.826 – 04:55:51.946] So that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. [04:55:51.946 – 04:56:00.926] And I, I think that's where Ted's step kind of leads us into, is that the game changes, and now I need to look, if I want to be of maximum service. [04:56:00.926 – 04:56:05.646] If all I want to do is be comfortable, then I don't need to pay any attention to that.

[04:56:05.646 – 04:56:16.446] But if I want to be of maximum service, if I want to really feel the juices and the je- zest and the rewards of recovery, [04:56:16.446 – 04:56:18.546] I will never get those by working on me. [04:56:18.546 – 04:56:20.546] Will not happen. [04:56:20.546 – 04:56:25.986] I'll get those when I get myself out of the way and become of maximum service and become a channel. [04:56:25.986 – 04:56:28.586] You know, then I'll be getting somewhere. [04:56:28.586 – 04:56:38.726] And so to me, that's what that transition is about, is getting it to focus off of me directly and what I need, and getting into how I can be a good instrument doing God's work

[04:56:38.726 – 04:56:41.126] around wherever I can come in contact with people. [04:56:41.126 – 04:56:44.286] So that, that's an important transition to me. [04:56:44.286 – 04:56:45.446] That starts to open it up. [04:56:45.446 – 04:56:55.486] There's, uh, I mentioned that badge in Chicago the, the other, the, the, la- yesterday sometime, that service is the secret, and [04:56:55.486 – 04:56:56.446] I really believe it is. [04:56:56.446 – 04:57:03.786] And, and, uh, t- I'll tell you one thing that, I was in the airport a while back in, in Raleigh j- just a couple weeks ago. [04:57:03.786 – 04:57:07.806] And, uh, I, I wanted a sandwich.

[04:57:07.806 – 04:57:14.426] I went in a place, and there was a, a ni- nice girl that served me a sub. [04:57:14.426 – 04:57:16.606] And, uh, I could tell she'd eaten a few of them, too. [04:57:16.606 – 04:57:18.146] She was a healthy girl. [04:57:18.146 – 04:57:19.906] If I put it that way, she… [04:57:19.906 – 04:57:28.226] And, and she was wearing a f- a, a badge that said, "Surge into service." Oh. [04:57:28.226 – 04:57:38.706] And I, I looked at that and I said, "Boy, I like that badge." And she said, "Oh, thank you." I said, "No, I mean I really like that badge."

[04:57:38.706 – 04:57:45.366] And she said, looked at me, she said, "Really?" I said, "Yeah." She said, "I'll give it to you." And so she gave me the badge. [04:57:45.366 – 04:57:47.126] And I wore that sucker to the conference. [04:57:47.126 – 04:57:50.566] Because that is, that's exactly what it does, it surges into service. [04:57:50.566 – 04:57:56.985] And, um, I d- hated to con, I didn't con the girl, I told her the truth, and she rewarded my telling her the truth. [04:57:56.985 – 04:57:59.786] I'll buy her a sub someday. [04:57:59.786 – 04:58:04.846] But that's just fun.

[04:58:04.846 – 04:58:06.846] You know, I mean, those are just good fun things. [04:58:06.846 – 04:58:09.206] But they pay off, you know, when you start doing stuff with people. [04:58:09.206 – 04:58:18.816] So in, in that whole business of getting into that frame of mind, I've got to look at that thing called effectiveness. [04:58:18.816 – 04:58:25.746] I'll tell you one other thing about that, and, uh, hope I can make this make some sense. [04:58:25.746 – 04:58:35.786] If I really want to be of maximum service, I mean service to the max, I have

[04:58:35.786 – 04:58:39.606] got to be able to start thinking beyond my own shadow. [04:58:39.606 – 04:58:43.906] Let me see, let me tell you what. [04:58:43.906 – 04:58:45.526] Have y'all seen George this morning? [04:58:45.526 – 04:58:47.386] Yeah. [04:58:47.386 – 04:58:48.546] Is that beautiful? [04:58:48.546 – 04:58:50.665] Yeah. [04:58:50.665 – 04:58:51.456] Uh- He's cheating. [04:58:51.456 – 04:58:51.806] Yeah, he, he's what? [04:58:51.806 – 04:58:52.725] He's cheating. [04:58:52.725 – 04:58:53.286] Cheating? [04:58:53.286 – 04:58:54.066] Yeah. [04:58:54.066 – 04:58:54.886] What, getting cool? [04:58:54.886 – 04:58:56.086] He's got boxers under that. [04:58:56.086 – 04:58:57.146] Oh, my God. [04:58:57.146 – 04:58:58.386] How do you know? [04:58:58.386 – 04:59:05.086] I te- I te- He's gonna have them ears. [04:59:05.086 – 04:59:05.626] I go… [04:59:05.626 – 04:59:07.586] Don't leave, old man. [04:59:07.586 – 04:59:09.606] He's not gonna take his skirt off. [04:59:09.606 – 04:59:12.845] He's not gonna le- He go- He…

[04:59:12.845 – 04:59:15.236] I just- Oh my God. [04:59:15.236 – 04:59:15.776] He now needs pants. [04:59:15.776 – 04:59:17.696] I told him if we could- Yeah, yeah, yeah … [04:59:17.696 – 04:59:22.746] I told him with that outfit, if we get the old man to sing, it was, he would sound like bagpipes. [04:59:22.746 – 04:59:27.946] And he, and he could do the Highland Fling or something. [04:59:27.946 – 04:59:31.126] That's great. [04:59:31.126 – 04:59:35.606] I tell you what, that's, and that is a uniform of honor in Scotland, believe me. [04:59:35.606 – 04:59:36.095] Yes, it is. [04:59:36.095 – 04:59:36.926] It very much so. [04:59:36.926 – 04:59:38.946] Yeah. [04:59:38.946 – 04:59:40.566] And once you get, well, you…

[04:59:40.566 – 04:59:41.466] Yeah, it is. [04:59:41.466 – 04:59:48.666] Y'all shouldn't pull me off track. [04:59:48.666 – 04:59:49.766] I forget where I was. [04:59:49.766 – 04:59:53.886] Uh- Maximum service … [04:59:53.886 – 04:59:56.126] what, talking about being of maximum service. [04:59:56.126 – 04:59:59.586] If, if I gotta do that, I gotta, I gotta count myself one. [04:59:59.586 – 05:00:00.926] You know, I'm just one guy. [05:00:00.926 – 05:00:02.386] You know, I'm one member, yeah. [05:00:02.386 – 05:00:03.406] But I'm one. [05:00:03.406 – 05:00:11.606] And if I'm gonna be of service, then, you know, there's a certain amount I can do that's right in front of me. [05:00:11.606 – 05:00:14.086] I mean, and I've got enough to keep me busy forever doing that.

[05:00:14.086 – 05:00:16.186] But it's limited, eh? [05:00:16.186 – 05:00:23.126] Yeah, if I, if I look at, you know, at what I do as an individual, you know, I can chair meetings, I can do workshops, and I can do s- stuff like this. [05:00:23.126 – 05:00:25.786] That, that's one dimension. [05:00:25.786 – 05:00:29.126] But that's a finite kind of a thing. [05:00:29.126 – 05:00:30.706] You know, that's a limited kind of thing. [05:00:30.706 – 05:00:34.025] That would be as, as useful as I can get time to do it. [05:00:34.025 – 05:00:38.246] And, and there's nothing wrong with it, but is that maximum service?

[05:00:38.246 – 05:00:39.706] I don't think so. [05:00:39.706 – 05:00:46.546] You know, if I really wanna be of maximum service, I've gotta think beyond just me and my shadow, and think bigger. [05:00:46.546 – 05:00:47.866] I've gotta think about my group. [05:00:47.866 – 05:00:53.066] Now, you've probably gathered yesterday, I have a very strong bias toward groups. [05:00:53.066 – 05:00:58.586] And, uh, it is not just because I like structure and organization. [05:00:58.586 – 05:01:01.986] I like, I like a- achieved results. [05:01:01.986 – 05:01:02.846] That's what I like. [05:01:02.846 – 05:01:05.966] I like primary purpose being met. [05:01:05.966 – 05:01:07.376] That's what I like. [05:01:07.376 – 05:01:16.286] And so if I wanna be of maximum service, my group is an extension of who I am.

[05:01:16.286 – 05:01:21.466] I'm only as strong as the group that supports me. [05:01:21.466 – 05:01:22.926] Mm. [05:01:22.926 – 05:01:27.806] And when I'm to greet that newcomer, it's nice for me to tell him I need him more than he needs me. [05:01:27.806 – 05:01:37.966] And I can get him off in a corner and duke him around and all this kind of stuff, but if I don't have a group that delivers what I promise, [05:01:37.966 – 05:01:39.266] I'm conning the guy. [05:01:39.266 – 05:01:40.026] Yeah. [05:01:40.026 – 05:01:40.766] I'm conning him. [05:01:40.766 – 05:01:49.926] And, and so if I wanna be effective, I've gotta recognize that it's not just how much I do with my own sphere of activity.

[05:01:49.926 – 05:01:57.006] If I want, I, if I wanna develop a group, and that group will do 40 times more than me. [05:01:57.006 – 05:01:58.426] See what I'm talking about? [05:01:58.426 – 05:02:04.006] If I wanna be of maximum service, I gotta get it off of me and, and, and let that be a bigger thing. [05:02:04.006 – 05:02:08.126] I gotta look at my district, you know. [05:02:08.126 – 05:02:10.266] Well, how is my district? [05:02:10.266 – 05:02:15.286] You know, I belong to a good, strong group, but that doesn't mean anything. [05:02:15.286 – 05:02:18.686] As, you know, what kind of a neighbor are we to the next group?

[05:02:18.686 – 05:02:21.226] We don't operate in isolation. [05:02:21.226 – 05:02:23.146] You know, we're just one group. [05:02:23.146 – 05:02:30.266] So I need to be concerned about my neighbors, you know, if I really wanna be effective, 'cause folks aren't gonna come to just my group. [05:02:30.266 – 05:02:35.026] And I want, uh, I want our fellowship as a whole to be healthy and well. [05:02:35.026 – 05:02:36.646] And so I've gotta be… [05:02:36.646 – 05:02:46.546] If I wanna be effective, if I wanna be of maximum service, I gotta think bigger, and then carry it on to my area, and into my fellowship.

[05:02:46.546 – 05:02:50.646] And just, just like I s- the example I gave about the Kenya thing we were talking about. [05:02:50.646 – 05:02:51.296] Right. [05:02:51.296 – 05:02:53.586] You know, that's in the sphere of maximum service. [05:02:53.586 – 05:02:59.566] And I mean, you don't plan to do those things, but if you, if you're tuned in and you're doing service, they just accrue to you. [05:02:59.566 – 05:03:00.886] You, they, they're just gonna happen. [05:03:00.886 – 05:03:09.026] And, and so, at, that to me is the spirit of this whole thing that happened in, in the, uh, in the 10th Step.

[05:03:09.026 – 05:03:18.806] I, I tell you one other thing that… [05:03:18.806 – 05:03:22.386] I got about two weeks worth of notes, and I'm trying to pick out which ones to talk about. [05:03:22.386 – 05:03:27.285] Uh, you, you, you never know what's gonna happen. [05:03:27.285 – 05:03:30.266] I just sort of dangle this out as something to think about. [05:03:30.266 – 05:03:39.786] We, we bemoan a lot of things, and a lot of them we think are insoluble, that we just can't do anything about them. [05:03:39.786 – 05:03:46.206] Uh, like now I know, I know there are some guys here that, that are carrying some paper.

[05:03:46.206 – 05:03:48.926] Please be comfortable with what I'm gonna say. [05:03:48.926 – 05:03:56.996] But I've got, I've been troubled ever since we started doing this mandating of people to AA. [05:03:56.996 – 05:04:01.806] And, you know, trying to get s- you know, certification that you did it. [05:04:01.806 – 05:04:10.186] I, I've been troubled by that because I think it poses more barriers to recovery than it does bridges to recovery. [05:04:10.186 – 05:04:11.116] Yeah. [05:04:11.116 – 05:04:13.046] That, and that's troubled me for a long time. [05:04:13.046 – 05:04:18.366] That, you know, if you j- just, just so you think with me about this thing.

[05:04:18.366 – 05:04:25.466] If you contrast how we deal with that now to, you know, the history. [05:04:25.466 – 05:04:28.106] Uh, you remember how Ebby got into AA? [05:04:28.106 – 05:04:29.006] Mm-hmm. [05:04:29.006 – 05:04:29.966] With a court order. [05:04:29.966 – 05:04:31.646] Well, no, he wasn't court ordered. [05:04:31.646 – 05:04:32.606] He was court allowed. [05:04:32.606 – 05:04:34.056] Yeah, that's right. [05:04:34.056 – 05:04:35.246] Yeah, a big difference. [05:04:35.246 – 05:04:37.206] 180-degree difference. [05:04:37.206 – 05:04:38.366] Yeah. [05:04:38.366 – 05:04:42.646] The, some people, they weren't even AA people, but they, they were the seeds of AA. [05:04:42.646 – 05:04:50.166] And these folks went to the court and said, "Give him to us." And the judge said, "What have I got to lose?

[05:04:50.166 – 05:04:53.426] He's an idiot anyway." And so, you know. [05:04:53.426 – 05:04:56.706] But when you think about it, see that's where this came from. [05:04:56.706 – 05:04:57.496] Mm-hmm. [05:04:57.496 – 05:05:07.526] And there was a, a whole ethic that grew out of that, where at one time in this country, a judge who allowed, uh, somebody to come to AA would get [05:05:07.526 – 05:05:09.286] a standing ovation in OA. [05:05:09.286 – 05:05:10.526] In AA. [05:05:10.526 – 05:05:10.986] OA? [05:05:10.986 – 05:05:13.606] In, in, in AA. [05:05:13.606 – 05:05:16.766] Today, he would be apt to catch a brick. [05:05:16.766 – 05:05:17.706] Yeah. [05:05:17.706 – 05:05:19.256] See, what's done- [05:05:19.463 – 05:05:21.283] What happened, we've done a 180 on that.

[05:05:21.283 – 05:05:31.583] And now, instead of us petitioning the court and saying, "Give AA a try instead of lockup," total [05:05:31.583 – 05:05:32.703] s- total reversal. [05:05:32.703 – 05:05:43.003] Now the res- court has the responsibility, and is trying to mandate some kind of a, of, of, of, of, of assimilation [05:05:43.003 – 05:05:43.473] into AA. [05:05:43.473 – 05:05:50.803] And, and when you do that, it just creates kind of awkward stuff that I know that sometimes it's embarrassing. [05:05:50.803 – 05:05:53.363] It's embarrassing to come in and have to ask somebody… [05:05:53.363 – 05:05:59.963] And, and we've got an, we've developed an attitude about that that sometimes we're not all that helpful in doing it.

[05:05:59.963 – 05:06:05.783] And, and we, and somebody asks to do it, say, "Yeah, okay," you know, just sort of a dismissing kind of a thing. [05:06:05.783 – 05:06:09.483] And I'll give you example of what, what that… [05:06:09.483 – 05:06:16.023] And, and I want to do just a little bit of preliminary on this thing, so, and I'd like to challenge you to do something about it. [05:06:16.023 – 05:06:25.003] Um, wife and I were, we, we had a weekend, and I s- it, it felt like I'm gonna do some relaxation by traveling, but I had a weekend.

[05:06:25.003 – 05:06:32.063] I said, "You wanna go goof off somewhere?" And sh- she said, "Yeah, where?" I said, "Let's go to Disney World. [05:06:32.063 – 05:06:37.183] I'd like to get you some rat ears down there." So we did. [05:06:37.183 – 05:06:42.283] We went to Orlando for a few days, and, uh, and, uh, I did get her some rat ears. [05:06:42.283 – 05:06:46.163] She, she looked good in them with, with nothing else on. [05:06:46.163 – 05:06:47.022] Now she looked great. [05:06:47.022 – 05:06:50.882] She… [05:06:50.882 – 05:06:52.543] Where's Bob? [05:06:52.543 – 05:06:54.483] Look, h- hey, edit Bob. [05:06:54.483 – 05:06:57.473] We went down a…

[05:06:57.473 – 05:06:59.083] Then we went to a meeting. [05:06:59.083 – 05:07:02.683] We, we found a meeting, and it, uh, went in, a ragtag little old meeting. [05:07:02.683 – 05:07:04.983] But, uh, we went in. [05:07:04.983 – 05:07:07.043] There was one, uh, we drove up to the place. [05:07:07.043 – 05:07:10.143] It was real dark, and there was a guy sitting by the kitchen door. [05:07:10.143 – 05:07:11.213] And I, I rolled the window down. [05:07:11.213 – 05:07:11.813] I didn't even say nothing. [05:07:11.813 – 05:07:15.783] He said, "Yeah, this is it." So I said, "Okay, come on." Wife and I went in. [05:07:15.783 – 05:07:16.303] It was open.

[05:07:16.303 – 05:07:23.023] Went in, and it was, it was that guy and us, and then there was another one straggled in, and then another one. [05:07:23.023 – 05:07:27.602] And then right before the meeting started, I'm sitting there, and I'm looking. [05:07:27.602 – 05:07:34.623] I've seen a lot of stuff today, but a door opened other than the one we came in, and here came nine people- Oh, Jesus … [05:07:34.623 – 05:07:35.383] marching in. [05:07:35.383 – 05:07:40.163] And I said, "What is this?" Man, I, looked like the parade, you know. [05:07:40.163 – 05:07:42.643] No bag, but when the parade was coming in.

[05:07:42.643 – 05:07:47.103] And, uh, they sat at the table. [05:07:47.103 – 05:07:49.783] Well, now I kinda figured what it was, you know what I mean? [05:07:49.783 – 05:07:51.483] They, they, we don't go to meetings like that. [05:07:51.483 – 05:07:52.383] We go in a herd. [05:07:52.383 – 05:07:52.703] We don't… [05:07:52.703 – 05:07:58.943] Uh, so it started out, and it was a brittle meeting, you know, just cold. [05:07:58.943 – 05:08:02.423] The old boy by the door read some stuff, and then he figured I could read. [05:08:02.423 – 05:08:03.923] He asked me to read something, and then… [05:08:03.923 – 05:08:10.383] And, uh, they were started to talk, and, and, and he asked me to say something.

[05:08:10.383 – 05:08:20.803] And, uh, before that he said, he said, "You might have noticed that this is not your average meeting." I said, "Yeah, it did strike me that way." And he said, [05:08:20.803 – 05:08:31.103] uh, he said, "These folks that just came in are on probation, and they report to the office, which is next door, and then they send them over here." [05:08:31.103 – 05:08:41.103] And so I said, "You know, I am really glad to be here and in the middle of this," because I told him just what I

[05:08:41.103 – 05:08:41.383] told you. [05:08:41.383 – 05:08:51.443] I said, "I've been really concerned for a long time of whether that's helpful or harmful, you know, of, of just what that means to somebody who's, who's caught in that system." [05:08:51.443 – 05:08:54.423] Now, you talk about a meeting coming alive. [05:08:54.423 – 05:08:59.463] 'Cause I said, "What do you guys think?" Well, holy mackerel, man. [05:08:59.463 – 05:09:02.663] I mean, you talk about unleashing fury. [05:09:02.663 – 05:09:04.243] I, I mean, man, it came out. [05:09:04.243 – 05:09:11.263] But we, we wound up having a great meeting because we weren't talking a bunch of pious platitudes.

[05:09:11.263 – 05:09:14.423] We were talking where they lived right then. [05:09:14.423 – 05:09:15.053] Right. [05:09:15.053 – 05:09:17.323] And, and so we got into some communication. [05:09:17.323 – 05:09:19.383] And we, they had to run them off after the meeting. [05:09:19.383 – 05:09:20.683] They wanted to hang out. [05:09:20.683 – 05:09:26.843] Now, I don't know if that made them AA members, but, but what it said was just how difficult that is. [05:09:26.843 – 05:09:32.183] And, uh, you know, we were, we had a, w- we, a correctional facility. [05:09:32.183 – 05:09:35.303] I keep pointing to old man 'cause I gotta get verification from him.

[05:09:35.303 – 05:09:38.663] If he, if he nods or is awake, I know he's with it. [05:09:38.663 – 05:09:44.603] And he, we had a little committee meeting, correctional facility committee meeting in our group. [05:09:44.603 – 05:09:50.663] And we finished, we finished our business and, and he, uh, uh, we… [05:09:50.663 – 05:09:52.183] I brought it up. [05:09:52.183 – 05:09:59.843] I said, I said, "That, you know, that court paper thing's worried me for a long time." And I said, "Why don't we see if we can do something about it?" In fact, he said it.

[05:09:59.843 – 05:10:02.813] He said, "Oh, hell, Tom, you can't do anything about that. [05:10:02.813 – 05:10:07.823] They do it all over the country." And I said, "Yeah, I know that, but let's don't fix the whole country. [05:10:07.823 – 05:10:16.503] Let's, let's just look right here and see if we can do anything." He said, "All right, we'll try." So we did, and we took that on as a CPC project. [05:10:16.503 – 05:10:21.363] And so what we did, I, I don't wanna spend the whole time on this 'cause we gotta leave.

[05:10:21.363 – 05:10:23.263] I gotta go get under the knife. [05:10:23.263 – 05:10:24.383] I gotta, gotta… [05:10:24.383 – 05:10:34.423] Uh, we, what we did, I never had really thought through why that bothered me so much, but it [05:10:34.423 – 05:10:35.223] did bother me. [05:10:35.223 – 05:10:44.383] And so I, I, one day I was flying somewhere, and we had a, we had set up a meeting with the head of the probation system in our area, in our, um, in our immediate area. [05:10:44.383 – 05:10:52.783] And I really wasn't prepared for the meeting 'cause I hadn't really thought through what, what's the problem, and what do you do about it?

[05:10:52.783 – 05:10:56.603] I think when you go and dump a problem on somebody's desk, you gotta have a solution right behind it. [05:10:56.603 – 05:11:03.923] And so I started listing what bo- what bothered me about that, just like I listed those expectations yesterday. [05:11:03.923 – 05:11:09.003] I mean, those, uh, agents of harm to emotional sobriety. [05:11:09.003 – 05:11:17.583] And so I started listing about what's good about that, and listed 10 things that might have value. [05:11:17.583 – 05:11:25.575] All 10 had value to the official None had clear value to the client, in my judgment.

[05:11:25.575 – 05:11:29.895] I put question marks beside three because they might. [05:11:29.895 – 05:11:32.515] Maybe, on a good day. [05:11:32.515 – 05:11:34.215] Maybe. [05:11:34.215 – 05:11:38.395] Didn't really believe it, but I wanted to be generous, so named three. [05:11:38.395 – 05:11:40.845] And, uh, it did… [05:11:40.845 – 05:11:43.295] My God, I had to just quit on the negatives. [05:11:43.295 – 05:11:48.235] That, you know, it's a horrible introduction to AA, I believe. [05:11:48.235 – 05:11:52.335] It's like somebody comes in wearing a brand, you know? [05:11:52.335 – 05:11:53.685] Yeah. [05:11:53.685 – 05:11:54.215] You can't… [05:11:54.215 – 05:12:02.935] It's very difficult to get a genuine introduction to AA when you come in through a different door, you come in to a different portal.

[05:12:02.935 – 05:12:12.875] And so it's an awkward kind of a thing, where you kinda feel like a second-class member, or not a member at all, just somebody that's just sort of there. [05:12:12.875 – 05:12:20.595] And, uh, and, and, and, and over the years, there's, there's been an attitude that's developed about that. [05:12:20.595 – 05:12:20.805] You know? [05:12:20.805 – 05:12:21.985] It, it… [05:12:21.985 – 05:12:27.354] S- somebody says sometime that, that if AA ever dies, it'll be killed from the inside. [05:12:27.354 – 05:12:28.065] Amen. [05:12:28.065 – 05:12:28.465] Yeah. [05:12:28.465 – 05:12:29.175] What we… [05:12:29.175 – 05:12:37.575] All we have to do is develop hardened attitudes so that we no longer see n- newcomers as the lifeblood, but we see them as an intruder.

[05:12:37.575 – 05:12:41.715] And when that starts to happen, the spirit of this program's dead. [05:12:41.715 – 05:12:44.855] And, and so it's, it's troubling. [05:12:44.855 – 05:12:49.715] You got into some real sort of harsh kind of attitudes about it. [05:12:49.715 – 05:12:51.775] Uh, you got groups… [05:12:51.775 – 05:12:55.595] I, I, I won't name the town, but I went, I went into a town a while back. [05:12:55.595 – 05:13:01.915] Well, it was just a few blocks from where we'd held an international convention some years back. [05:13:01.915 – 05:13:06.675] It's, uh, right up the street from it, and there was a big sign on the…

[05:13:06.675 – 05:13:10.135] It didn't say, "Welcome to the weak and weary. [05:13:10.135 – 05:13:20.215] Welcome to the land of beginning again." The big greeting was, "We do not sign papers." And I thought, isn't that a hell of a note? [05:13:20.215 – 05:13:23.815] That we're gonna make that the beacon of hope. [05:13:23.815 – 05:13:25.445] We don't sign papers. [05:13:25.445 – 05:13:28.395] Well, it's a problem, is, is the point. [05:13:28.395 – 05:13:29.575] It's a real problem. [05:13:29.575 – 05:13:33.355] And so I just think we can do better. [05:13:33.355 – 05:13:38.175] Uh, I wrote something down on that thing that I had, I never really thought through.

[05:13:38.175 – 05:13:48.595] I, normally, uh, if somebody asked me to sign a paper, now, this, I know this is shucking and jiving a little bit, but I'll [05:13:48.595 – 05:13:50.715] say, "Sh- see her. [05:13:50.715 – 05:13:51.955] She'll take care of that," you know? [05:13:51.955 – 05:13:54.424] Now, I mean, that's just passing the buck, you know. [05:13:54.424 – 05:13:55.915] But that's what I'd do. [05:13:55.915 – 05:13:57.135] I'd just weasel out, you know? [05:13:57.135 – 05:14:01.915] I'd say, "She'll take care of that." 'Cause it may not bother her as much as it did me, you know? [05:14:01.915 – 05:14:03.835] And so, so I'd shove it off.

[05:14:03.835 – 05:14:06.215] Never had really thought about why I felt like that. [05:14:06.215 – 05:14:16.395] And I wrote down something, that when I do that, it makes me something other than an alcoholic to another alcoholic. [05:14:16.395 – 05:14:23.335] It automatically makes me an agent of the criminal justice system. [05:14:23.335 – 05:14:29.075] It automatically makes me somebody who is an approver or a, a validator. [05:14:29.075 – 05:14:30.875] That's not what I wanna be. [05:14:30.875 – 05:14:34.255] I wanna be an alcoholic to an alcoholic, and that's all. [05:14:34.255 – 05:14:38.295] Well, anyway, I, I sell that 'cause I really would.

[05:14:38.295 – 05:14:40.475] If you have trouble with that kind of thing, do something about it. [05:14:40.475 – 05:14:42.575] Do something about it. [05:14:42.575 – 05:14:52.575] And, and so we wrote that stuff up, went to see the guy, and, um, when we were going through the stuff, had it written up, and we'd had maybe half a dozen suggestions on things that could be done. [05:14:52.575 – 05:14:59.075] And, uh, so we went through, and the guy, like any government official, he was defensive. [05:14:59.075 – 05:14:59.335] You know? [05:14:59.335 – 05:15:01.515] He, he wouldn't say anything, but you could tell his posture.

[05:15:01.515 – 05:15:05.895] He's behind his desk, back in the, the fight position. [05:15:05.895 – 05:15:08.935] And, uh, so we started lay… [05:15:08.935 – 05:15:11.175] And we got to that one I just was talking about. [05:15:11.175 – 05:15:14.875] And he read that, and he said, "Well, I'll be damned. [05:15:14.875 – 05:15:18.555] I never thought of that." I said, "Me either." Me either. [05:15:18.555 – 05:15:18.995] We even. [05:15:18.995 – 05:15:19.195] Yeah. [05:15:19.195 – 05:15:22.435] And, and from then on, it was a piece of cake. [05:15:22.435 – 05:15:30.975] And so he said, "Well, God, let's fix it." And, uh, and so he asked us to do some sessions with the probation staff to let them know what we were doing and get them co- bought into the idea.

[05:15:30.975 – 05:15:36.375] We set it up for, to have two probation officers at a time come in, as long as they're not packing. [05:15:36.375 – 05:15:38.015] Don't come in packing. [05:15:38.015 – 05:15:38.235] No. [05:15:38.235 – 05:15:39.915] Stay out if you're gonna do that. [05:15:39.915 – 05:15:42.955] And so we worked that so they could get acquainted to see what the program was. [05:15:42.955 – 05:15:53.375] And then the, the real c- real thing that was the key to me, they say, "Well, what do you do as an alternative?" And, and so what we suggested, and they bought,

[05:15:53.455 – 05:15:55.535] was do a 180, back to what we used to do. [05:15:55.535 – 05:16:02.595] That, tell the guy that he's got a problem, and ask him what he's gonna do about it. [05:16:02.595 – 05:16:03.075] See what I mean? [05:16:03.075 – 05:16:09.955] Put the responsibility on him instead of trying to get the court to be responsible to mandate a new life. [05:16:09.955 – 05:16:11.265] I mean, that's wishful thinking. [05:16:11.265 – 05:16:13.095] Put it on the dude. [05:16:13.095 – 05:16:13.565] It's his res- [05:16:13.734 – 05:16:13.974] Problem. [05:16:13.974 – 05:16:18.774] And in that way, he has the dignity of success or failure. [05:16:18.774 – 05:16:23.074] And not just being chattel of a court, you know.

[05:16:23.074 – 05:16:26.984] And so we, we'll, uh… [05:16:26.984 – 05:16:28.213] You have to speak into this, Tony. [05:16:28.213 – 05:16:37.794] Um, so instead of being friendly with our friends and, um, having a working relationship like we used to, we've abdicated our responsibilities. [05:16:37.794 – 05:16:41.994] It's now more one-sided than mandating people to our meetings. [05:16:41.994 – 05:16:47.274] And as active AA members, we should be participating, doing our part like we used to. [05:16:47.274 – 05:16:53.114] That's, that way we've also gotten away from 12 stepping, 12 step work in a traditional sense. [05:16:53.114 – 05:16:56.034] We're no longer going out actively seeking- Mm-hmm …

[05:16:56.034 – 05:17:01.134] alcoholics or gift wraps sent to us, and then we look at them, like you said, the differences. [05:17:01.134 – 05:17:06.954] They don't, they're not sincere in wanting to be here like we've ever known anyone that was sincere in coming. [05:17:06.954 – 05:17:07.334] Yeah. [05:17:07.334 – 05:17:07.704] Well- Right … [05:17:07.704 – 05:17:11.534] we hide behind that sign saying, "We don't sign paper." Yeah, that… [05:17:11.534 – 05:17:13.054] I wish I could say it that well. [05:17:13.054 – 05:17:14.214] That's exactly right, though. [05:17:14.214 – 05:17:14.914] Yeah. [05:17:14.914 – 05:17:16.074] Women. [05:17:16.074 – 05:17:20.294] Um, this whole conversation is a little bit, uh… [05:17:20.294 – 05:17:22.314] I see it from a totally different point of view.

[05:17:22.314 – 05:17:32.534] In 1974, I think it was, I went to a meeting under mandatory conditions, and, uh, uh, my, my attitude was, "I'd rather die [05:17:32.534 – 05:17:35.034] before I set foot in this place again." But you know what? [05:17:35.034 – 05:17:37.014] From that day on, I never forgot AA. [05:17:37.014 – 05:17:38.754] That was my first contact with AA. [05:17:38.754 – 05:17:43.864] I probably would not be sober today if I hadn't gone to that mandated meeting. [05:17:43.864 – 05:17:54.074] In 1983, when I just kinda like threw my life into God's hands, I ended up at a meeting that night, and I would not have known it was there if it wasn't for being mandated to a meeting.

[05:17:54.074 – 05:17:56.134] So exposure is worth something. [05:17:56.134 – 05:17:56.734] Yeah. [05:17:56.734 – 05:17:58.514] So Big Bang Theory does too. [05:17:58.514 – 05:18:01.094] There's a, uh… [05:18:01.094 – 05:18:08.934] It's the thing I said yesterday, it's true, that there's nothing that's not gonna work for somebody, nor is there anything that'll work for everybody. [05:18:08.934 – 05:18:11.154] What we have to do is look at the common welfare. [05:18:11.154 – 05:18:23.133] Like ironically, in our group, the first member that we had, first new member we had, he wasn't- He [05:18:23.133 – 05:18:29.434] wa- he wa- he wasn't, he wasn't exactly mandated, but he came in from, from an agency, and he's been there ever since.

[05:18:29.434 – 05:18:31.374] But he's the only one. [05:18:31.374 – 05:18:32.054] That's what I mean. [05:18:32.054 – 05:18:34.814] You know, God knows how many hundreds have sent in. [05:18:34.814 – 05:18:37.134] And sure, somebody's gonna make it once in a while. [05:18:37.134 – 05:18:39.394] Sometimes it plants the seed. [05:18:39.394 – 05:18:43.414] But I think it drives away far more than it attracts. [05:18:43.414 – 05:18:44.374] And that's the deal. [05:18:44.374 – 05:18:46.034] And the deal is, we can do better. [05:18:46.034 – 05:18:47.494] We can do better. [05:18:47.494 – 05:18:49.514] It's just what Tony was saying. [05:18:49.514 – 05:18:59.534] When we lose the spirit of us taking initiative, of us reaching out, of us becoming passive aggressive with the thing, we've lost something, something

[05:18:59.534 – 05:19:00.754] very valuable. [05:19:00.754 – 05:19:04.614] So it's not just a matter of whether it might, you know, work once in a while. [05:19:04.614 – 05:19:11.054] It's a matter of when we lose that quality in AA, we lose something vital to what we're about. [05:19:11.054 – 05:19:11.874] It's… [05:19:11.874 – 05:19:13.474] I, I think there's a whole lot more to it. [05:19:13.474 – 05:19:18.434] And the, uh, and the thing is, it's, uh, it's, it's working. [05:19:18.434 – 05:19:20.914] Uh, we've never had a piece of paper since. [05:19:20.914 – 05:19:25.774] And, uh, people ask me if we still get people from probation.

[05:19:25.774 – 05:19:34.394] I cannot tell you how proud I am to be able to say, "I don't know." It is none of my business. [05:19:34.394 – 05:19:41.034] What brings somebody to Alcoholics Anonymous is not my business unless they wanna tell me. [05:19:41.034 – 05:19:46.374] It's kinda like I was saying yesterday, you know, we don't examine motives or credentials or this kinda junk. [05:19:46.374 – 05:19:48.454] You know, we've still got the hand to say. [05:19:48.454 – 05:19:50.324] So it's, it's just a sticky wicket. [05:19:50.324 – 05:19:50.554] Yeah. [05:19:50.554 – 05:19:51.434] This is Jack. [05:19:51.434 – 05:19:52.514] Hi, Tom. [05:19:52.514 – 05:19:56.714] Um, I think that, that that whole deal…

[05:19:56.714 – 05:20:01.754] 'Cause I came here over 20 years ago, and I was mandated to go to one meeting. [05:20:01.754 – 05:20:08.034] And it was just enough, you know, to set the hook and make me want what was here. [05:20:08.034 – 05:20:10.934] You know, to see those happy people in the meetings. [05:20:10.934 – 05:20:16.814] And, and that, uh, that particular area was a very strong fellowship area. [05:20:16.814 – 05:20:26.814] And I think that, that that problem addresses the problem that we see in AA as a whole today, and that's the, um, the lack of

[05:20:26.814 – 05:20:33.834] direct one-on-one sponsorship with the steps in our fellowship today. [05:20:33.834 – 05:20:43.954] We really don't have, I think today, as strong a program inside of the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous as we did 20 years ago. [05:20:43.954 – 05:20:53.813] So our ineffectiveness with the new fella that comes in on mandated papers, and what we do with him once we get him here, is what's lacking. [05:20:53.813 – 05:20:55.854] Yeah, it is. [05:20:55.854 – 05:20:56.154] That… [05:20:56.154 – 05:20:58.654] Well, I mean, that's a, that'd be a whole different workshop. [05:20:58.654 – 05:21:01.134] But yeah, I, I really think something happened.

[05:21:01.134 – 05:21:09.394] We got institutionally focused about 25, 30 years ago when treatment emerged and we started getting people siphoned in, banned in, you know. [05:21:09.394 – 05:21:17.594] We lost a lot of stuff in terms of our, our need to go get 'em because we were overwhelmed with the numbers coming in. [05:21:17.594 – 05:21:27.594] So, but in the course of that, I think the bad news was that we did lose some of those vital kinds of things, uh, about our, you know, our need for an alcoholic,

[05:21:27.594 – 05:21:30.634] and, and we've gotten more institutionally oriented. [05:21:30.634 – 05:21:34.424] And, and, uh, so there, there is some big work to doing that. [05:21:34.424 – 05:21:36.174] That- that's a whole, whole different workshop. [05:21:36.174 – 05:21:41.934] The big thing is, what, what I say is, you're gonna find remarkable exceptions in anything. [05:21:41.934 – 05:21:45.314] Look at the overall effectiveness. [05:21:45.314 – 05:21:46.794] Look at that. [05:21:46.794 – 05:21:50.794] And if you're satisfied that you got something good going, fine. [05:21:50.794 – 05:21:52.814] You know, help it. [05:21:52.814 – 05:21:57.994] But if you got questions like I did, investigate it. [05:21:57.994 – 05:21:59.434] Take a look at it.

[05:21:59.434 – 05:22:01.374] See if it's something that needs attention. [05:22:01.374 – 05:22:06.994] And so that's what, that's what we're gonna look at, is our job is to reach the alcoholic still suffering. [05:22:06.994 – 05:22:12.574] Our job is to reach out, is to take those actions that are gonna cause people to be able to find this thing. [05:22:12.574 – 05:22:14.094] And that's just one example. [05:22:14.094 – 05:22:17.174] I mean, you could do the same thing with, with treatment or just anything else. [05:22:17.174 – 05:22:24.510] That, uh- Yeah, you, it, it, uh, you find, in fact, you find some of the same dynamics with people coming out of treatment.

[05:22:24.510 – 05:22:34.510] That, uh, we went through a period where we vast- vastly overrated the treatment experience and, and the word would get out that when people came out, it [05:22:34.510 – 05:22:37.020] was equivalent to one year or five years recovery. [05:22:37.020 – 05:22:42.400] That what, what we failed to recognize that, that treatment is not AA. [05:22:42.400 – 05:22:45.630] Treatment removes the barriers to recovery. [05:22:45.630 – 05:22:46.250] It's vital. [05:22:46.250 – 05:22:47.000] It's important. [05:22:47.000 – 05:22:48.440] Really, really helpful. [05:22:48.440 – 05:22:52.430] But when you walk out of treatment and walk into AA, you're in day one of recovery.

[05:22:52.430 – 05:22:57.849] You're in day one of where you're actually practicing a program of recovery, and it's a critical time. [05:22:57.849 – 05:23:02.660] And when we overrate that and say, "Well, this one doesn't need much help," we do a great disservice. [05:23:02.660 – 05:23:06.330] So there are a lot of problems along those kinds of areas that… [05:23:06.330 – 05:23:09.070] And they're good ones to look at from the standpoint of effectiveness. [05:23:09.070 – 05:23:18.310] And, and so look at that transition of, and my God, you could go all day with that kind of thing about how we try to package people and put, put them in.

[05:23:18.310 – 05:23:27.310] And, and, and so this whole business of how we get that individual chemistry where one alcoholic reaches out to another, my God, we'll never get any bigger than that. [05:23:27.310 – 05:23:30.830] But we lose it when we get institutionally oriented, you know? [05:23:30.830 – 05:23:35.310] So anyway, that gets a little bit, a little bit heavy and heady, but it's, uh… [05:23:35.310 – 05:23:37.390] You, you gotta get to a mic. [05:23:37.390 – 05:23:38.470] Is that on back there, Bob? [05:23:38.470 – 05:23:39.050] Yep. [05:23:39.050 – 05:23:39.670] Okay. [05:23:39.670 – 05:23:43.490] Hi, I'm, hi, I'm Bill, alcoholic. [05:23:43.490 – 05:23:45.790] I don't, I don't know if this is true or not.

[05:23:45.790 – 05:23:46.930] This is something I heard. [05:23:46.930 – 05:23:54.510] But I heard that in the state of West Virginia, if you do 90 meetings, um, you don't have to pay your fines. [05:23:54.510 – 05:24:01.010] I, I don't know if you've ever heard anything like that or… [05:24:01.010 – 05:24:03.750] It's just something I heard. [05:24:03.750 – 05:24:05.270] I'm not sure if it's true. [05:24:05.270 – 05:24:09.390] I don't know if it's on your first DUI, second DUI, third DUI. [05:24:09.390 – 05:24:11.510] But that was something I heard. [05:24:11.510 – 05:24:12.090] I don't- Yeah … [05:24:12.090 – 05:24:12.570] just. [05:24:12.570 – 05:24:15.170] Well, I haven't heard it, but I wouldn't quarrel with it.

[05:24:15.170 – 05:24:16.710] I mean, I wouldn't challenge it. [05:24:16.710 – 05:24:17.990] I gu- I guarantee you that. [05:24:17.990 – 05:24:20.950] I have long since quit being surprised at anything. [05:24:20.950 – 05:24:24.460] At, uh, at… [05:24:24.460 – 05:24:26.130] So, uh, West Virginia is wild and wonderful. [05:24:26.130 – 05:24:27.489] That's the theme of the state. [05:24:27.489 – 05:24:30.110] Uh, yeah. [05:24:30.110 – 05:24:35.230] Well, uh, we could, we could, we could deal with that there, but I, I, I, I got more sermon here. [05:24:35.230 – 05:24:36.470] I gotta do some more sermon. [05:24:36.470 – 05:24:37.360] All right. [05:24:37.360 – 05:24:41.540] I just wanna leave you to, I want to leave you to vex over that a little bit, you know, and- Yeah …

[05:24:41.540 – 05:24:43.110] and if you're happy with it, right on. [05:24:43.110 – 05:24:43.470] Yeah. [05:24:43.470 – 05:24:48.409] But if you're troubled and you don't think that the drunks are getting a fair shake, take action. [05:24:48.409 – 05:24:49.110] Take action. [05:24:49.110 – 05:24:51.530] Effectiveness is what you're looking for. [05:24:51.530 – 05:24:52.330] Yeah. [05:24:52.330 – 05:24:53.250] That's it, yeah. [05:24:53.250 – 05:24:54.490] Reaching out is exactly it. [05:24:54.490 – 05:24:59.850] Um, that, so that, you know, that just in the service realm. [05:24:59.850 – 05:25:10.050] The, I, I wanted to talk a little bit about this, this, the, the part of these steps that, that [05:25:10.050 – 05:25:15.350] kindled the way I function in terms of my personal stuff.

[05:25:15.350 – 05:25:25.390] You know, you know, step 11 is, is about, "We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for [05:25:25.390 – 05:25:35.490] knowledge of w- His will for us and the power to carry that out." You know, at first glance, it sounds like, like it's just about, you know, g- going off staring at your navel and thinking [05:25:35.490 – 05:25:38.710] great thoughts, you know, and trying to get spiritually pure. [05:25:38.710 – 05:25:45.330] And that's certainly part of it, you know, improving my, my, my new relationship with a power that's vital in my life.

[05:25:45.330 – 05:25:47.710] Sure, that's part of it, and it's a very important part of it. [05:25:47.710 – 05:25:54.810] But I think, uh, I know yesterday I referred to myself as a deeply spiritual guy, but it's spirituality in combat boots. [05:25:54.810 – 05:26:00.070] You know, I, I believe that spirituality, spiritual life is an active life. [05:26:00.070 – 05:26:02.410] It's a real vigorous life, a go-get-'em life. [05:26:02.410 – 05:26:12.830] And, uh, and I, I, so I think step 11, to me, is, is, is probably the greatest definitive action step [05:26:12.830 – 05:26:13.710] that, that we have.

[05:26:13.710 – 05:26:21.330] Uh, you know, what it's basically telling us to do is to, it's just to use prayer and meditation to get equipped to go out and do life. [05:26:21.330 – 05:26:26.010] And then when we get through with it at the end of the day, reflect on what we've done. [05:26:26.010 – 05:26:26.810] Is it good work? [05:26:26.810 – 05:26:27.610] Is it bad work? [05:26:27.610 – 05:26:28.770] Is it something we need to fix? [05:26:28.770 – 05:26:31.230] That's certainly one vital part of it. [05:26:31.230 – 05:26:41.250] And I tell you, I don't know about you, but when I'm actively involved in doing service, when I start to reflect on my day, it is a rare day that I

[05:26:41.250 – 05:26:43.830] am not overwhelmed with gratitude. [05:26:43.830 – 05:26:53.850] I mean, for, not just for what's come to me, but just for the experience of life that day, of the incredible kinds of opportunities to be of [05:26:53.850 – 05:27:00.590] service, to do things that have some value, and, uh, tremendously rewarding little, little things of, uh… [05:27:00.590 – 05:27:07.860] You know, it's like that, you, this kind of living is not n- just deeply satisfying- [05:27:08.021 – 05:27:09.511] personally, it's awfully rewarding. [05:27:09.511 – 05:27:13.371] Uh, just like I was mentioning about that badge that that little girl gave me.

[05:27:13.371 – 05:27:17.751] I mean, that's, that's lightweight compared to a lot of the stuff that, uh… [05:27:17.751 – 05:27:28.031] You know, what I find is that when I practice this kind of thing, and I really seek out opportunities to be of service, I literally cannot [05:27:28.031 – 05:27:29.871] put out more than I get back. [05:27:29.871 – 05:27:33.971] I've, I'd, I'd give you a couple examples of what, what I'm talking about, and I've … [05:27:33.971 – 05:27:35.231] You know I'm not a… [05:27:35.231 – 05:27:37.210] I think you know I'm not a magical thinker. [05:27:37.210 – 05:27:41.011] I just believe that, that good actions pay off.

[05:27:41.011 – 05:27:47.431] And, uh, I remember when, when 9/11 happened, I, I had to fly that next weekend. [05:27:47.431 – 05:27:53.271] And, uh, went to the airport, and it wa- it was a zoo. [05:27:53.271 – 05:27:56.691] I mean, it was just like you guys are gonna see going back to st- across the pond. [05:27:56.691 – 05:27:57.880] Oh, I'm sorry. [05:27:57.880 – 05:27:57.880] It's… [05:27:57.880 – 05:27:59.211] Oh, no, you's, you'll rise above it. [05:27:59.211 – 05:28:02.331] Yeah. [05:28:02.331 – 05:28:03.091] Yeah, sure. [05:28:03.091 – 05:28:08.611] And I went in up there, and I was kind of geared for it 'cause I figured it was gonna be bedlam, and I was right.

[05:28:08.611 – 05:28:10.071] And it was a mess. [05:28:10.071 – 05:28:14.511] And, uh, so I went over to the place I had to go, and everybody had to go through the ticket counter. [05:28:14.511 – 05:28:15.651] So I went over there. [05:28:15.651 – 05:28:18.151] Some poor girl was back there by herself. [05:28:18.151 – 05:28:21.711] And, and they had the, the, the alert on, and everybody's … [05:28:21.711 – 05:28:22.521] You had to, to, to… [05:28:22.521 – 05:28:25.351] She had to handle everybody's bag. [05:28:25.351 – 05:28:26.511] Everybody. [05:28:26.511 – 05:28:27.591] I mean, she had to pick up every… [05:28:27.591 – 05:28:31.891] Wouldn't let us touch them, and had to carry it over to another place to do something.

[05:28:31.891 – 05:28:34.351] And that poor girl was sweating like a mule. [05:28:34.351 – 05:28:37.171] And, and everybody was aggravated. [05:28:37.171 – 05:28:40.051] I mean, you know, folks are just naturally mad in airports. [05:28:40.051 – 05:28:42.051] And it doesn't matter if it's working right. [05:28:42.051 – 05:28:42.971] They go in mad. [05:28:42.971 – 05:28:44.531] They don't have to have any bad experiences. [05:28:44.531 – 05:28:46.851] They just go in mad, you know, got their game face on. [05:28:46.851 – 05:28:54.351] And, and so there were a lot of very, very agitated folk there, and that poor girl trying to fend them off. [05:28:54.351 – 05:29:00.131] And so I finally got up there, and I, I just, just messed with her a little bit.

[05:29:00.131 – 05:29:00.771] I, I… [05:29:00.771 – 05:29:08.611] She didn't have time to be clowning around, but I said, I said, "Girl, you're working, aren't you?" And she said, "You bet I'm working." And I said, "I tell you what you do. [05:29:08.611 – 05:29:14.451] You work on till quitting time, and then take the rest of the day off." She, she, she said… [05:29:14.451 – 05:29:19.031] She shouldn't have been cussed at that, but she said, "You bet your" something. [05:29:19.031 – 05:29:22.411] "I'm gonna take the, the day off, and, and tomorrow too.

[05:29:22.411 – 05:29:24.671] I'm not coming in." I said, "Go for it. [05:29:24.671 – 05:29:27.471] Go for it." So we just wolfed around a little bit like that. [05:29:27.471 – 05:29:29.971] Now, you picture the scene. [05:29:29.971 – 05:29:32.231] Now, I'm talking about a street fight. [05:29:32.231 – 05:29:33.731] I'm, I'm talking, yeah, I'm talking about… [05:29:33.731 – 05:29:35.551] I'm not talking about Happy Valley. [05:29:35.551 – 05:29:42.751] And so we got, finally got the whole bag in there, and I started working through the crowd, and I heard this voice. [05:29:42.751 – 05:29:43.491] "Mr. [05:29:43.491 – 05:29:46.251] Ivester." And I said, "What? [05:29:46.251 – 05:29:51.091] You've done enough with me." She said, "Come back here." She booted me into first class.

[05:29:51.091 – 05:29:52.551] Ah. [05:29:52.551 – 05:29:56.681] I guarantee you, I don't think the governor could've gotten first class. [05:29:56.681 – 05:29:56.831] You… [05:29:56.831 – 05:30:04.431] I'd, uh- I'd have loved to hear, heard that dude that was sitting back in cattle class saying, "How'd I get back here? [05:30:04.431 – 05:30:08.721] I…" But, but you see what I'm talking about? [05:30:08.721 – 05:30:11.351] You know, that I wasn't looking for anything. [05:30:11.351 – 05:30:13.411] I'm just trying to make a little better day. [05:30:13.411 – 05:30:17.431] I'm trying to make a little enjoyable transaction with somebody. [05:30:17.431 – 05:30:19.951] And, you know, just lending a little hand to something.

[05:30:19.951 – 05:30:21.891] My God, there's no big deal to that. [05:30:21.891 – 05:30:26.321] But when I do it, it's amazing what happens, you know. [05:30:26.321 – 05:30:29.731] You know, I, I, I, uh, wife and I were out in… [05:30:29.731 – 05:30:31.651] God, I could go all day with that stuff. [05:30:31.651 – 05:30:35.151] Uh, I, uh, uh, wife and I were out on the West Coast. [05:30:35.151 – 05:30:36.691] We, we made that little trip. [05:30:36.691 – 05:30:39.151] And we were renting a car. [05:30:39.151 – 05:30:42.411] And, and I, and I just, I'm not wealthy. [05:30:42.411 – 05:30:44.751] I mean, I, I got just to live on, but I'm not wealthy.

[05:30:44.751 – 05:30:48.031] And so I'd, I'd, had ordered a Yugo or something. [05:30:48.031 – 05:30:52.631] I, I, I wanted a- I wanted something that wouldn't drink gas or cost much. [05:30:52.631 – 05:30:55.191] And so I ordered the cheapest thing they had. [05:30:55.191 – 05:30:58.151] Big time spender. [05:30:58.151 – 05:31:02.231] So we went in there, and this, this little gal was, was going at it. [05:31:02.231 – 05:31:04.371] So we, we messed around a little bit. [05:31:04.371 – 05:31:06.111] And then we finished up. [05:31:06.111 – 05:31:10.211] She said, "Will you do me a favor?" I said, "Yeah, sure. [05:31:10.211 – 05:31:17.951] What is it?" She said, "Will you take, um…" Whatever it was, it was the second most expensive thing they had.

[05:31:17.951 – 05:31:23.051] "Will you take that?" And I said, "My God, people are always asking me to take something. [05:31:23.051 – 05:31:32.651] Now, why you want me to take it?" She said, "Well, I would just like to see how you like it." Well, it was a, I mean, a luxury kind of thing, a big old thing. [05:31:32.651 – 05:31:36.351] You know, I don't, I don't lick their hand to take that. [05:31:36.351 – 05:31:41.941] But, uh, see what I'm talking about? [05:31:41.941 – 05:31:42.400] You know. [05:31:42.400 – 05:31:45.091] That this is not some kind of…

[05:31:45.091 – 05:31:47.771] Sometimes we say we have to make sacrifice in service. [05:31:47.771 – 05:31:51.651] I make sacrifice, but I guarantee you I get back more than I give. [05:31:51.651 – 05:31:52.491] You know? [05:31:52.491 – 05:31:54.471] I'll sacrifice right on, you know, so… [05:31:54.471 – 05:31:58.031] And it's just not in, in just what we do in these rooms. [05:31:58.031 – 05:32:03.531] It's when you do this stuff in, in life, do it in life, and life takes on a different meaning. [05:32:03.531 – 05:32:09.991] That's why when I, when I, when I g- go to bed at night, you know, my menu is gratitude.

[05:32:09.991 – 05:32:12.631] My God, it's totally unbelievable. [05:32:12.631 – 05:32:14.530] I could go on and on with, with that stuff. [05:32:14.530 – 05:32:15.771] I, I've had a… [05:32:15.771 – 05:32:16.861] You know, fly a lot. [05:32:16.861 – 05:32:18.441] I have a lot of experiences on planes. [05:32:18.441 – 05:32:28.481] I, I'll tell you something that's, that's, um, that's kind of a spirit of this thing too, that for, you know, for a lot of years, when, when I would be flying, and [05:32:28.481 – 05:32:28.531] I'm… [05:32:28.531 – 05:32:31.871] and most of the time I'm, I'm going to, to an AA something somewhere.

[05:32:31.871 – 05:32:42.121] And most of the, most of the time it, it, when you get in the plane, either people will get into a little glass prison and not react to anybody, [05:32:42.121 – 05:32:44.171] just sort of sit there in a coma. [05:32:44.171 – 05:32:46.051] You know, you get some of that. [05:32:46.051 – 05:32:48.291] But you get a lot of people that get bored. [05:32:48.291 – 05:32:50.011] They want to talk, you know. [05:32:50.011 – 05:32:54.011] And that's normally just chitchat, you know, what's your dog's name, and stuff like that. [05:32:54.011 – 05:33:00.831] And, uh, so for years, I would not lie.

[05:33:00.831 – 05:33:03.851] I would just evade the questions. [05:33:03.851 – 05:33:06.571] And by the way, we're gonna quit at 11:30. [05:33:06.571 – 05:33:08.171] At the, um… [05:33:08.171 – 05:33:09.791] I would just evade the question. [05:33:09.791 – 05:33:13.935] Somebody say, "Where you going?" Well, I'm going to Lake Milton, Ohio. [05:33:13.935 – 05:33:16.255] "What for?" And I'd say, conference. [05:33:16.255 – 05:33:19.075] "What's it about?" I'd say, oh, it's about alcoholism. [05:33:19.075 – 05:33:20.805] Well, it's not about alcoholism. [05:33:20.805 – 05:33:23.195] This is about recovery from alcoholism. [05:33:23.195 – 05:33:27.474] So it, it just sort of fog it, you know, instead of being straight out. [05:33:27.474 – 05:33:30.995] And one day it dawned on me, why do I do that?

[05:33:30.995 – 05:33:34.015] That's got nothing to do with anonymity. [05:33:34.015 – 05:33:37.455] My God, that's got to do with fear or pride or something. [05:33:37.455 – 05:33:39.334] That's not about the spirit of anonymity. [05:33:39.334 – 05:33:42.995] My God, I'm 30,000 feet in the air in a metal tube. [05:33:42.995 – 05:33:45.315] Who gonna tell anybody? [05:33:45.315 – 05:33:45.535] I… [05:33:45.535 – 05:33:47.495] what's anonymous about that? [05:33:47.495 – 05:33:47.754] You… [05:33:47.754 – 05:33:49.615] good chance won't even get down. [05:33:49.615 – 05:33:50.955] Well, I get down all right, but… [05:33:50.955 – 05:33:54.504] Anyway, and I thought, why did I… [05:33:54.504 – 05:33:55.975] I said, shoot, man, that's dumb. [05:33:55.975 – 05:33:58.235] And I said, I ain't gonna do that no more.

[05:33:58.235 – 05:33:59.635] And I haven't. [05:33:59.635 – 05:33:59.715] I… [05:33:59.715 – 05:34:01.085] not a single time. [05:34:01.085 – 05:34:09.115] I-if if somebody asks me where I'm going, I'm gonna tell them, and, uh, no uncertain terms. [05:34:09.115 – 05:34:13.075] Now, I mean, I'm not gonna bore them with a whole bunch of stuff, but I'm gonna tell them. [05:34:13.075 – 05:34:14.275] I, I tell them about it. [05:34:14.275 – 05:34:24.755] And, and I'll tell you this, I've been doing that now for probably 30 years, and I have never had one single person [05:34:24.755 – 05:34:29.755] who was less than keenly interested. [05:34:29.755 – 05:34:35.415] I've never had a single one that said, "Ho hum." I mean, even people drinking.

[05:34:35.415 – 05:34:38.655] You know, in fact, I found some members that way too. [05:34:38.655 – 05:34:45.275] That- But, but it's, it's amazing that, you know, everybody's got one of these things in their tree. [05:34:45.275 – 05:34:46.094] You know, they might… [05:34:46.094 – 05:34:46.615] There's nobody… [05:34:46.615 – 05:34:48.615] This is not a passive subject to people. [05:34:48.615 – 05:34:53.775] And, and, and every time it has been enormously rewarding. [05:34:53.775 – 05:35:03.855] And I tell you, the, uh, the, uh, and, and, and many times, just, just that many time I found members who hadn't been to a meeting

[05:35:03.855 – 05:35:06.755] for years, who would rekindle a spirit. [05:35:06.755 – 05:35:09.955] I found an Al-Anon gal one day on the plane. [05:35:09.955 – 05:35:12.955] I, I, sh- big old girl from Iowa. [05:35:12.955 – 05:35:21.205] And, and, uh, so we started talking, and I noticed that she was listening with a little more than the average ear, you know. [05:35:21.205 – 05:35:23.455] And she was leaning into me instead of away. [05:35:23.455 – 05:35:26.415] And so I s- started telling her about it. [05:35:26.415 – 05:35:36.575] And finally she said, "You know, I used to be in Al-Anon." I said, "What do you mean you used to be?" She said, "Well, I don't go anymore." I said, "Why not?" She said,

[05:35:36.575 – 05:35:42.175] "Well, my husband died." And, uh, now I know you're not gonna believe this part of it. [05:35:42.175 – 05:35:48.755] She said, "I just sort of, sort of dropped away and, and she married another drunk." Can you believe that? [05:35:48.755 – 05:35:52.515] Is that historic or what? [05:35:52.515 – 05:35:53.215] I've got you… [05:35:53.215 – 05:36:02.535] So she married this guy, and she said, "He's a dimwit." And, uh, she said She said, "He's… [05:36:02.535 – 05:36:06.685] drinks, and he wouldn't let me go to Al-Anon on a bet." Oh. [05:36:06.685 – 05:36:09.135] And she said, "But I'll tell you what I'm gonna do.

[05:36:09.135 – 05:36:19.195] When I get back to Iowa, I'm going to Al- Al-Anon, and if that sucker gets in my way, I'm gonna knock him out." And sh- and she's big enough [05:36:19.195 – 05:36:19.835] to do it too. [05:36:19.835 – 05:36:23.715] That- But it, it, see, it seems there's no harm in that. [05:36:23.715 – 05:36:24.405] You know? [05:36:24.405 – 05:36:28.135] But what would I do but hide it in that little s- veil of secrecy? [05:36:28.135 – 05:36:31.275] That's nothing to do with al- anonymity, for God's sake. [05:36:31.275 – 05:36:35.555] And those are opportunities to be of service, enormously.

[05:36:35.555 – 05:36:36.155] I… [05:36:36.155 – 05:36:37.755] One more airplane story. [05:36:37.755 – 05:36:38.014] That… [05:36:38.014 – 05:36:39.035] I, I was on a… [05:36:39.035 – 05:36:42.275] I was going to f- this is a thriller moment. [05:36:42.275 – 05:36:43.315] Uh-oh. [05:36:43.315 – 05:36:44.515] It's, uh… [05:36:44.515 – 05:36:48.555] Let me finish this one, and then, and, uh, and you can do the Benedictine. [05:36:48.555 – 05:36:54.635] We, I was on one going to Fargo, North Dakota, of all places, in February. [05:36:54.635 – 05:36:57.435] That is not the way to plan travel. [05:36:57.435 – 05:36:59.395] But I, I was going to Fargo. [05:36:59.395 – 05:37:03.655] Got to O'Hare, and they were getting ready to shut down.

[05:37:03.655 – 05:37:08.375] I got the last seat on the last plane out of O'Hare to Fargo. [05:37:08.375 – 05:37:10.265] And, and so I got on the plane. [05:37:10.265 – 05:37:11.515] I was sitting in the middle. [05:37:11.515 – 05:37:13.255] That is just my favorite thing. [05:37:13.255 – 05:37:13.775] Yeah. [05:37:13.775 – 05:37:14.955] Sit, sitting in the middle. [05:37:14.955 – 05:37:16.815] And there was a little gal beside me. [05:37:16.815 – 05:37:22.255] We started talking, and she was a, a, a girl that was going to Fargo. [05:37:22.255 – 05:37:23.135] She was from Boston. [05:37:23.135 – 05:37:31.235] And, uh, so we started chatting about her adventures as being a librarian and stuff like that, and about what Fargo was like and all that.

[05:37:31.235 – 05:37:39.135] And, uh, so I didn't get, I, I didn't get to the point of telling her about where I was going, 'cause we was, we was talking about her. [05:37:39.135 – 05:37:45.135] And, uh, just before we took off, I had an open aisle seat, and I was hoping I was gonna get over there. [05:37:45.135 – 05:37:55.195] But I looked up, and there was a, the- With, with, there, there, there was an open, uh, y- There [05:37:55.195 – 05:37:59.094] was a kind of a frantic-looking red-haired lady coming down the aisle.

[05:37:59.094 – 05:38:01.685] And I said, "Uh-oh, I bet she's mine." And, uh- [05:38:02.242 – 05:38:03.802] Sure enough, she came in and sat down. [05:38:03.802 – 05:38:06.022] And we started to talk. [05:38:06.022 – 05:38:08.202] And so we started to chat. [05:38:08.202 – 05:38:08.902] She was going to… [05:38:08.902 – 05:38:10.922] She had a tough situation. [05:38:10.922 – 05:38:13.982] Her, her, her husband had just died of brain cancer. [05:38:13.982 – 05:38:15.122] She was raising for Fargo. [05:38:15.122 – 05:38:18.082] She was going to Fargo for a grief with her family. [05:38:18.082 – 05:38:21.582] And, uh, hers was not a happy journey. [05:38:21.582 – 05:38:23.862] And she asked me where I was, where I was going.

[05:38:23.862 – 05:38:30.222] And so I told her, and I told her just enough that she caught the drift and, and she looked like she'd been hit by electricity. [05:38:30.222 – 05:38:35.122] She said, "Are you in recovery?" I said, "You better believe I'm in recovery, girl. [05:38:35.122 – 05:38:39.811] Yeah, I am." And she said, "Me too, seven years." Wow. [05:38:39.811 – 05:38:44.362] And, well, I mean, y- you know, we don't mean to be rude, but we often are. [05:38:44.362 – 05:38:48.701] And so we started having a sort of semi-closed meeting on, on the plane.

[05:38:48.701 – 05:38:56.462] And, uh, and, uh, and right before we got to Fargo, I realized that I was really being crude to that girl from Boston. [05:38:56.462 – 05:38:58.102] So I turned around and apologized. [05:38:58.102 – 05:38:59.072] I said, "Yeah, I'm sorry. [05:38:59.072 – 05:39:07.002] I, I didn't mean to, to vacate you like that." She said, "No, don't apologize." Always rest of the story, eh? [05:39:07.002 – 05:39:08.982] Everybody's got the rest of the story. [05:39:08.982 – 05:39:10.192] That's right. [05:39:10.192 – 05:39:16.562] She said, "Now what I didn't tell you is that I was to be married last Saturday.

[05:39:16.562 – 05:39:23.262] And I went down to the church, and we had everything set up, and my husband didn't show." Oh. [05:39:23.262 – 05:39:24.762] Now, I could… [05:39:24.762 – 05:39:30.482] I never have been s- a jilted wife, but I could imagine how she felt. [05:39:30.482 – 05:39:31.162] Yeah. [05:39:31.162 – 05:39:33.062] Humiliated. [05:39:33.062 – 05:39:36.112] Embarrassed. [05:39:36.112 – 05:39:37.122] Unbelievable. [05:39:37.122 – 05:39:47.162] But, and, uh, and she said, she said, "The reason I don't want you to apologize, because when I left going [05:39:47.162 – 05:39:49.062] to Fargo, I thought my life was over. [05:39:49.062 – 05:39:59.262] It was done." She said, "Listening to you guys, man, is there ever hope for me?" But, but i-

[05:39:59.262 – 05:39:59.842] isn't that something? [05:39:59.842 – 05:40:06.262] That's, as you get into that little selfish mode where you're not e- tuned into other people, you miss those things. [05:40:06.262 – 05:40:06.612] Mm. [05:40:06.612 – 05:40:09.861] And those are priceless, warm memories that come. [05:40:09.861 – 05:40:10.002] You know? [05:40:10.002 – 05:40:10.522] And they don't… [05:40:10.522 – 05:40:11.582] Well, anyway. [05:40:11.582 – 05:40:14.262] Uh, my name's Mickey. [05:40:14.262 – 05:40:15.182] I'm an alcoholic. [05:40:15.182 – 05:40:16.201] Hey, Mickey. [05:40:16.201 – 05:40:16.291] Hey. [05:40:16.291 – 05:40:21.202] You were talking about going someplace to a store or something, and people were asking what was going on. [05:40:21.202 – 05:40:25.682] We were, last night, we went to the dollar store across the way here, bunch of us.

[05:40:25.682 – 05:40:35.742] And as we were checking out, the girl said, "Well, they're going places ca- like emotional sobriety." She said, "I have no idea what that is." And [05:40:35.742 – 05:40:41.422] I looked at her and I said, "It's part of recovery." And she said, uh, uh, "What do you mean recovery?" Uh-huh. [05:40:41.422 – 05:40:46.902] And she says, "Is it like alcohol where you give up drinking, now you give up your emotions?" You know. [05:40:46.902 – 05:40:56.982] I, I said, "No." I said, "You learn how to deal with your emotions through different steps." And she says, "You know?

[05:40:56.982 – 05:41:00.542] Everybody ought to have one of those." Yeah. [05:41:00.542 – 05:41:01.062] Yeah. [05:41:01.062 – 05:41:02.002] Thank you very much. [05:41:02.002 – 05:41:03.962] By the way, that's not the dollar store. [05:41:03.962 – 05:41:05.522] That's the Lake Milton Mall. [05:41:05.522 – 05:41:14.062] That's… [05:41:14.062 – 05:41:17.622] Don't cut that out, Bob. [05:41:17.622 – 05:41:22.082] Yeah. [05:41:22.082 – 05:41:23.642] Uh-huh. [05:41:23.642 – 05:41:26.172] There's just something about the understanding and the caring that comes across. [05:41:26.172 – 05:41:26.402] Yeah. [05:41:26.402 – 05:41:27.362] Yeah. [05:41:27.362 – 05:41:30.062] I have a message from Dundee. [05:41:30.062 – 05:41:32.041] Yeah. [05:41:32.041 – 05:41:38.382] I find that we who come into AA via treatment centers have loyalty to the center. [05:41:38.382 – 05:41:39.182] Amen. [05:41:39.182 – 05:41:47.262] How best can we learn to turn this around when it's treatment that's relieved our desperation to work the steps?

[05:41:47.262 – 05:41:49.462] That, that's a good question. [05:41:49.462 – 05:41:51.102] That's a good pondering question. [05:41:51.102 – 05:41:54.962] You know, that, it is, it's a strange thing about loyalty. [05:41:54.962 – 05:42:03.231] I- if you were to test loyalty, think back to where the wheel got put in motion that resulted in your recovery. [05:42:03.231 – 05:42:05.802] And ju- just like, just like you were saying. [05:42:05.802 – 05:42:10.242] No matter what it is, you will have a loyalty to that second to none. [05:42:10.242 – 05:42:12.442] Second to none. [05:42:12.442 – 05:42:19.102] And if it was, if you've got a treatment center that, uh, you know, where you had a good experience, you'll have a loyalty to that.

[05:42:19.102 – 05:42:20.342] You'll contribute to it. [05:42:20.342 – 05:42:23.641] If they have a, an, a reunion, you'll go to it. [05:42:23.641 – 05:42:26.482] You know, there is a loyalty that goes to that. [05:42:26.482 – 05:42:32.042] And sometimes that, making that transition i- is really kind of difficult. [05:42:32.042 – 05:42:35.122] It, it's like in a m- I'll tell, I'll give you example. [05:42:35.122 – 05:42:37.062] I s- I started sponsoring a guy a while back. [05:42:37.062 – 05:42:40.762] Uh, and he had a, had a s- he had a sponsor. [05:42:40.762 – 05:42:42.962] He'd been sober for 13 years, I think. [05:42:42.962 – 05:42:46.182] So he asked me about it, and I said, I s- I said, "Yeah." We took it on.

[05:42:46.182 – 05:42:49.922] So we started, we met, started to talk about conditions and stuff. [05:42:49.922 – 05:42:54.892] And, and he said, "Do you wanna know who my current sponsor is?" Mm. [05:42:54.892 – 05:42:56.702] And I said, "Well, not really. [05:42:56.702 – 05:43:06.702] If you want to tell me, it's okay, but I'm, I'm not curious about it." And his, his, his sponsor for 13 years was his [05:43:06.702 – 05:43:08.412] primary counselor in treatment. [05:43:08.412 – 05:43:09.012] Mm-hmm. [05:43:09.012 – 05:43:10.332] Who was not an alcoholic. [05:43:10.332 – 05:43:13.062] Ooh. [05:43:13.062 – 05:43:17.062] I, well, I mean, I didn't say a thing for a minute, you know?

[05:43:17.062 – 05:43:21.022] 'Cause I w- I, I didn't wanna just explode with some s- idiotic stuff. [05:43:21.022 – 05:43:23.482] I, so I, I held myself there a little bit. [05:43:23.482 – 05:43:32.182] And I said, "Let me make one suggestion to you, that you haven't had a sponsor. [05:43:32.182 – 05:43:41.902] What you have had has been the longest aftercare program in the world." And that's exactly right. [05:43:41.902 – 05:43:43.702] That's exactly right. [05:43:43.702 – 05:43:44.722] Yeah. [05:43:44.722 – 05:43:54.742] And it's just, just exactly what Patr- Patrick's alluding to, that, you know, it would, it wouldn't have surprised you, I know, that this fella ha- in

[05:43:54.742 – 05:43:56.742] 13 years, had never had a home group. [05:43:56.742 – 05:43:58.192] Oh. [05:43:58.192 – 05:43:59.482] His home group was that treatment center. [05:43:59.482 – 05:44:01.082] He went to meetings. [05:44:01.082 – 05:44:01.352] Mm. [05:44:01.352 – 05:44:06.578] But that's not where his heart was He had never sponsored anybody in 13 years. [05:44:06.578 – 05:44:10.238] He had never had a service commitment in 13 years. [05:44:10.238 – 05:44:12.878] So, you know, it's exactly what you're talking about, Patrick. [05:44:12.878 – 05:44:14.258] When you, when you, when… [05:44:14.258 – 05:44:15.698] That loyalty is in there. [05:44:15.698 – 05:44:19.398] And, and it's, it's ju- It's a, it's kind of a tough thing. [05:44:19.398 – 05:44:23.838] It's kind of like we're talking about that transition, that important for us…

[05:44:23.838 – 05:44:33.678] I, I, one of the few times I've had a flare-up with a treatment center, there was a guy that was gonna get me as a sponsor, and somebody at the treatment center advised him not to get me because I was too busy. [05:44:33.678 – 05:44:39.118] Well, that's none of a treatment center's business, and that's, you know, that's getting over the line, you know. [05:44:39.118 – 05:44:40.598] So we had a bit of a flare-up there. [05:44:40.598 – 05:44:45.158] But, uh, it is a tricky kind of a thing that, that we wanna cooperate.

[05:44:45.158 – 05:44:54.718] But, but just, just like you were saying, we have, we have yielded, and we've let the outside agencies take our responsibility. [05:44:54.718 – 05:44:57.818] And, and they didn't take it away from us, we gave it to them. [05:44:57.818 – 05:44:58.208] Mm-hmm. [05:44:58.208 – 05:44:59.038] We gave it to them. [05:44:59.038 – 05:44:59.698] And I… [05:44:59.698 – 05:45:09.838] So I think there's some real, real things that we need to look at in terms of the quality of our relationship, and in terms of what it's doing to the person who's [05:45:09.838 – 05:45:10.998] going through the transition.

[05:45:10.998 – 05:45:16.758] He's gotta make that transition, otherwise he's not gonna ma- have a good, solid recovery experience. [05:45:16.758 – 05:45:17.818] Yeah. [05:45:17.818 – 05:45:23.978] Personally, the reason I, um, put the question to you, Tom, is because I was a lucky guy. [05:45:23.978 – 05:45:30.898] I had two months in Alcoholics Anonymous before I went into treatment for 56 days, and then I come out and got myself an AA sponsor. [05:45:30.898 – 05:45:39.618] I can imagine how loyal that person not doing AA before treatment would be to treatment, and then, as you say, quite rightly, making that transition.

[05:45:39.618 – 05:45:41.238] It's that 12-step stuff. [05:45:41.238 – 05:45:42.538] You know, it's very difficult. [05:45:42.538 – 05:45:47.328] How best can we understand that situation when they walk in that door, as you say, rather than that door? [05:45:47.328 – 05:45:48.068] Yeah. [05:45:48.068 – 05:45:48.068] Exactly. [05:45:48.068 – 05:45:48.538] Thanks for doing it. [05:45:48.538 – 05:45:48.718] Yeah. [05:45:48.718 – 05:45:49.708] It's a real barrier. [05:45:49.708 – 05:45:52.978] By the way, we still have work to do with Patrick. [05:45:52.978 – 05:45:57.958] Most of us wear shirts that say Dr. [05:45:57.958 – 05:46:01.658] Bob or Don't Drink and Don't Die. [05:46:01.658 – 05:46:04.858] He's got Venice Beach. [05:46:04.858 – 05:46:09.358] If you've ever been to Venice Beach… [05:46:09.358 – 05:46:10.988] I know it's about.

[05:46:10.988 – 05:46:12.118] It's near Los Angeles. [05:46:12.118 – 05:46:13.158] Yeah, sure. [05:46:13.158 – 05:46:16.798] I know you over look at those ugly old men on skateboards. [05:46:16.798 – 05:46:18.538] I know what you do. [05:46:18.538 – 05:46:22.678] He's right. [05:46:22.678 – 05:46:25.838] You gotta watch these Dudley boys. [05:46:25.838 – 05:46:25.978] I… [05:46:25.978 – 05:46:26.998] Yeah. [05:46:26.998 – 05:46:29.338] But no, that's a, that is a, that really is… [05:46:29.338 – 05:46:31.938] I'm, I'm glad you mentioned that, 'cause that's a challenging area. [05:46:31.938 – 05:46:32.398] Yeah. [05:46:32.398 – 05:46:35.418] You know, and if you're somebody that wants to take a look at, at… [05:46:35.418 – 05:46:37.678] do a little system analysis, take a look at that. [05:46:37.678 – 05:46:39.998] Take a look at it and see what's happening.

[05:46:39.998 – 05:46:40.448] That… [05:46:40.448 – 05:46:44.038] And I'll, I'll give you one other just example to kind of… [05:46:44.038 – 05:46:46.038] I'm quick. [05:46:46.038 – 05:46:46.878] Will you stretch it? [05:46:46.878 – 05:46:47.458] Yeah. [05:46:47.458 – 05:46:47.778] Okay. [05:46:47.778 – 05:46:52.938] I'll give one other, well, just one other quick example of that. [05:46:52.938 – 05:46:59.678] That this thing about the, this relationship b- between facilities and us. [05:46:59.678 – 05:47:03.238] It was over at the, not the group we're in now, but another one. [05:47:03.238 – 05:47:03.998] But we had a… [05:47:03.998 – 05:47:11.678] A guy came to me one night, and he said, he said, "Tom, we need to do a group inventory." Now, that's an unusual request.

[05:47:11.678 – 05:47:21.698] And I said, "Why?" And he said, "We got too many addicts in here." And, and I swear to God, and I, I, I sometimes I don't see what's right in front of me, [05:47:21.698 – 05:47:21.918] you know. [05:47:21.918 – 05:47:28.038] And I said, I said, "Well, let me take a look and see if I see the same thing." 'Cause he was troubled, uh, because it was a closed meeting. [05:47:28.038 – 05:47:30.367] And, um, I took a look. [05:47:30.367 – 05:47:38.378] And sure enough, what it was, there was a juvenile facility in the town that was bringing kids over from the facility.

[05:47:38.378 – 05:47:43.278] And like most of our wounds, it was self-imposed wounds. [05:47:43.278 – 05:47:45.698] You know, we don't get hurt by people. [05:47:45.698 – 05:47:48.618] We, we, we, we impose the wounds. [05:47:48.618 – 05:47:52.318] And, and so we, we met and talked about it. [05:47:52.318 – 05:47:52.958] And that's what it was. [05:47:52.958 – 05:47:53.778] It was a bunch of kids. [05:47:53.778 – 05:47:57.158] Those kids come in, they didn't know if they were alcoholics or nanny goats. [05:47:57.158 – 05:47:59.778] They- They were just troubled kids, you know. [05:47:59.778 – 05:48:06.918] And, um, so we, we had a little meeting and, and they asked me if I would take the job to go over and talk with the director.

[05:48:06.918 – 05:48:08.028] Went over there. [05:48:08.028 – 05:48:09.558] Nice young social worker. [05:48:09.558 – 05:48:13.338] They don't teach open and closed meetings in social work school. [05:48:13.338 – 05:48:21.378] If we want them to know that, we have to do CPC work and go let them know how we work so that we can cooperate. [05:48:21.378 – 05:48:24.817] And, and instead of doing that, we usually back off and fight. [05:48:24.817 – 05:48:26.318] But instead of reaching out. [05:48:26.318 – 05:48:28.378] So I went in, and wonderful little lady. [05:48:28.378 – 05:48:32.578] She said, "I never, I never knew there was anything like open and closed meetings.

[05:48:32.578 – 05:48:34.898] I thought it was just AA meetings." And so I explained that. [05:48:34.898 – 05:48:37.818] She said, "Oh, we'll take care of that." Well, now I knew better than that. [05:48:37.818 – 05:48:41.778] When, when you, when you got a house full of juveniles, it's like herding cats. [05:48:41.778 – 05:48:44.538] I mean, yeah, I mean, I knew they weren't gonna do a lot of sorting. [05:48:44.538 – 05:48:47.018] And so they'd try. [05:48:47.018 – 05:48:56.408] But we said that's what triggered my strong commitment to the value of newcomer groups that are open because-

[05:48:56.539 – 05:49:06.879] We s– what we did i-in response to that, not only met with her, but we set up a newcomer program that was an open meeting, and that relieved all of the stress and uneasiness [05:49:06.879 – 05:49:11.918] of trying to force or force out or whatever, and, uh, what a wonderful resolution. [05:49:11.918 – 05:49:20.949] And, and so see, it, it's just a matter of, of, uh, if you're troubled about something, look at it from the standpoint of, of effectiveness. [05:49:20.949 – 05:49:21.859] What is it? [05:49:21.859 – 05:49:26.839] Instead of backing off, criticizing, throwing rocks, step in, take a look.

[05:49:26.839 – 05:49:28.099] Give it your best thought. [05:49:28.099 – 05:49:33.189] Put that keen alcoholic mind to work and, and it's amazing what you can come out with, you know. [05:49:33.189 – 05:49:36.019] And I think that's all in the spirit of what these steps are about. [05:49:36.019 – 05:49:38.699] It's not just about just what I've got in front of me. [05:49:38.699 – 05:49:45.189] It's about how I can reach out and reach the alcoholic who's, who's, who's not being re– I'm, I'm sorry, I didn't notice you were back there. [05:49:45.189 – 05:49:45.779] It's fine. [05:49:45.779 – 05:49:46.209] Um- Yeah.

[05:49:46.209 – 05:49:46.589] I'm Renee. [05:49:46.589 – 05:49:47.519] I'm an alcoholic addict. [05:49:47.519 – 05:49:49.728] Hi, Renee. [05:49:49.728 – 05:49:49.999] Okay. [05:49:49.999 – 05:49:58.819] Um, I've been sitting in my seat, and I've been praying about this, and God is making me feel like I need to come up here and say this. [05:49:58.819 – 05:50:03.298] Um, I relapsed five days ago. [05:50:03.298 – 05:50:08.439] I had almost six months, which really doesn't matter 'cause really today is all that matters. [05:50:08.439 – 05:50:16.759] Um, my recovery, I thought, um, I held God in one hand and the program in the other, and I lived my life like that.

[05:50:16.759 – 05:50:17.779] Okay? [05:50:17.779 – 05:50:28.239] I wasn't at the eleventh step, but I still feel I started that eleventh step as soon as I walked into the door, at least until I got to that third step, when I realized what my, [05:50:28.239 – 05:50:31.979] uh, came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. [05:50:31.979 – 05:50:35.899] Um, I fell back. [05:50:35.899 – 05:50:36.819] You're welcome. [05:50:36.819 – 05:50:37.099] All right? [05:50:37.099 – 05:50:37.959] I fell back. [05:50:37.959 – 05:50:38.379] Yeah. [05:50:38.379 – 05:50:42.739] I started not– m-missing things somehow, you know. [05:50:42.739 – 05:50:52.799] And I guess what I'm asking is, when I, as a newcomer, come into this program, how do I watch

[05:50:52.799 – 05:50:57.839] out for stuff like that so where– because I'm hard-headed, like all of us are. [05:50:57.839 – 05:51:04.639] Um, but how do I watch out so that doesn't happen, you know? [05:51:04.639 – 05:51:07.909] To where- Mm-hmm. [05:51:07.909 – 05:51:08.979] I made it back this time. [05:51:08.979 – 05:51:09.349] Yeah. [05:51:09.349 – 05:51:10.339] Next time I might not. [05:51:10.339 – 05:51:11.309] Yeah. [05:51:11.309 – 05:51:11.389] You know? [05:51:11.389 – 05:51:11.589] All right. [05:51:11.589 – 05:51:13.359] Let me, let me, let me address that a little bit. [05:51:13.359 – 05:51:13.979] That, uh… [05:51:13.979 – 05:51:18.979] Number one, shut the door on that six months. [05:51:18.979 – 05:51:20.459] Shut the door. [05:51:20.459 – 05:51:21.339] That's history. [05:51:21.339 – 05:51:23.979] It has absolutely no value.

[05:51:23.979 – 05:51:25.339] That's history. [05:51:25.339 – 05:51:25.879] It's done. [05:51:25.879 – 05:51:34.318] The worst mistake that somebody can make, I believe, in trying to get back in the program, is trying to pick up where they left off. [05:51:34.318 – 05:51:34.568] Right. [05:51:34.568 – 05:51:35.019] Yeah. [05:51:35.019 – 05:51:36.939] And it's just, it's hard to not do it. [05:51:36.939 – 05:51:41.989] So I think it's very important to draw a line and say, "That's over," you know. [05:51:41.989 – 05:51:44.799] You're probably not gonna learn a lot of lessons from studying it. [05:51:44.799 – 05:51:45.699] It's just done. [05:51:45.699 – 05:51:46.269] It's history. [05:51:46.269 – 05:51:46.919] It's behind you. [05:51:46.919 – 05:51:49.079] And, and then start out.

[05:51:49.079 – 05:51:56.959] There was a, for a lot of years, this may sound a little indirect, but I'll bring it back to you, though. [05:51:56.959 – 05:52:06.959] It is that there were a lot of years I really w-was heartbroken about how many people I saw lose their sobriety and come back and, and just [05:52:06.959 – 05:52:09.939] beat their brains out trying to get it and couldn't get it. [05:52:09.939 – 05:52:18.039] You know, one of the, the, the, the old, the group the old man used to belong to, there was a guy there that fought it for twenty-two years and then shot himself.

[05:52:18.039 – 05:52:19.979] It's a tough battle. [05:52:19.979 – 05:52:25.399] I believe, in trying to get back in the program, is trying to pick up where they left off. [05:52:25.399 – 05:52:26.049] Right. [05:52:26.049 – 05:52:26.049] Yeah. [05:52:26.049 – 05:52:27.939] And it's just, it's hard to not do it. [05:52:27.939 – 05:52:33.039] So I think it's very important to draw a line and say, "That's over," you know. [05:52:33.039 – 05:52:35.759] You're probably not gonna learn a lot of lessons from studying it. [05:52:35.759 – 05:52:36.699] It's just done. [05:52:36.699 – 05:52:37.279] It's history. [05:52:37.279 – 05:52:37.919] It's behind you. [05:52:37.919 – 05:52:40.099] And, and then start out. [05:52:40.099 – 05:52:47.379] There was a, for a lot of years, this may sound a little indirect, but I'll bring it back to you, though.

[05:52:47.379 – 05:52:57.439] It is that there were a lot of years I really w-was heartbroken about how many people I saw lose their sobriety and come back and, [05:52:57.439 – 05:53:00.959] and just beat their brains out trying to get it and couldn't get it. [05:53:00.959 – 05:53:09.079] You know, one of the, the, the old, the group the old man used to belong to, there was a guy there that fought it for twenty-two years and then shot himself. [05:53:09.079 – 05:53:11.039] It's a tough battle. [05:53:11.039 – 05:53:15.819] And, and I always wonder why is it that it's so difficult to come back here?

[05:53:15.819 – 05:53:20.639] And then finally I found something that the minute I read it, it rung a bell. [05:53:20.639 – 05:53:25.729] You know William James, the guy that, uh, that Bill, Bill cited a lot? [05:53:25.729 – 05:53:27.319] A very learned man. [05:53:27.319 – 05:53:29.159] He, he wrote a little comment. [05:53:29.159 – 05:53:39.159] He says, "No state of mind, once attained and lost, can ever [05:53:39.159 – 05:53:47.559] be regained and be the same." Now, that seemed like simple logic, but, but, but the minute I read that, that explained that dilemma to me. [05:53:47.559 – 05:53:53.419] Because so many people come back and they're trying to recapture or to re– get hold of.

[05:53:53.419 – 05:53:58.399] And, and, and, uh, I think what he said is, is that it's absolute truth. [05:53:58.399 – 05:54:00.819] There can never be another first honeymoon. [05:54:00.819 – 05:54:05.579] I mean, you, you might get married again, but you'll never have another first honeymoon. [05:54:05.579 – 05:54:08.159] There'll never be another first graduate. [05:54:08.159 – 05:54:10.678] You know, there, those experiences are one-time deals. [05:54:10.678 – 05:54:20.919] And it– So when, when you're in that position, my, what, what I always tell people is be prepared to either settle for less [05:54:20.919 – 05:54:21.779] or go for more. [05:54:21.779 – 05:54:23.479] Don't go for the same.

[05:54:23.479 – 05:54:25.299] Settle for less or go for more. [05:54:25.299 – 05:54:31.779] You know, meaning if you just wanna get by on just gritting your teeth, I don't know if you wrote that question yesterday, but I, I mentioned it. [05:54:31.779 – 05:54:35.639] To get started, go for small victories. [05:54:35.639 – 05:54:37.079] Small victories. [05:54:37.079 – 05:54:44.099] You know, go and, and shoot for one day of absolute steely determination to make it for one day. [05:54:44.099 – 05:54:53.139] And do that, and then what you'll do is you'll feel a sense of victory and you'll feel your morale go up.

[05:54:53.139 – 05:54:55.879] Every day you do that, your spirit'll get better. [05:54:55.879 – 05:55:05.946] And so- To me, it's just a matter of recognizing we got a deadly illness, that this may be my last shot at this deal, and, [05:55:05.946 – 05:55:08.087] and cut it right down to the nitty-gritty. [05:55:08.087 – 05:55:13.367] Hang on for one day, for one hour, for whatever you can do, and give yourself a chance. [05:55:13.367 – 05:55:15.187] And then go for something. [05:55:15.187 – 05:55:19.427] Come out to be the best 12-stepper that, that, that, that you can even imagine.

[05:55:19.427 – 05:55:23.947] You know, go for something more than just some meager existence, and go for that. [05:55:23.947 – 05:55:24.926] Have the vision, you know. [05:55:24.926 – 05:55:26.527] So I sure wish you well. [05:55:26.527 – 05:55:27.347] Wish you well. [05:55:27.347 – 05:55:30.347] Appreciate your courage for getting up there, too. [05:55:30.347 – 05:55:31.827] You've got- Yeah. [05:55:31.827 – 05:55:32.227] Yeah. [05:55:32.227 – 05:55:33.237] I'd like to make a statement. [05:55:33.237 – 05:55:34.627] I have a question on the other side of that issue. [05:55:34.627 – 05:55:39.507] Um, I am sponsoring a girl, and I have one girl that I'm sponsoring. [05:55:39.507 – 05:55:41.587] She calls me three or four times a week.

[05:55:41.587 – 05:55:44.347] She shares her problems, questions, concerns. [05:55:44.347 – 05:55:46.487] I share my experience, strength, and hope. [05:55:46.487 – 05:55:49.567] She takes sometimes what I have to offer and applies it. [05:55:49.567 – 05:55:55.967] And, and I have another girl that I, I would give anything to help her. [05:55:55.967 – 05:55:58.307] Um, she, she doesn't call me. [05:55:58.307 – 05:56:00.067] You know, she wants to work the fourth step. [05:56:00.067 – 05:56:03.367] I said, "I haven't seen any evidence that you've done the first." You know? [05:56:03.367 – 05:56:08.667] Her family comes first, and then her job, and then she fits in AA when she can.

[05:56:08.667 – 05:56:18.487] Um, you know, I didn't hear from her for five days, so I called her and left a message with her family on the machine, and she called– left a message on mine and said– gave me her number and said, you know, I can call her if I need her. [05:56:18.487 – 05:56:19.307] You know? [05:56:19.307 – 05:56:22.267] She's never asked me a question, you know? [05:56:22.267 – 05:56:28.937] And, and I, and I've, and I, I came right out and said, you know, "Look." I said, "You know, you've put all these things in front of your sobriety.

[05:56:28.937 – 05:56:30.607] I couldn't do it that way. [05:56:30.607 – 05:56:32.847] I can't stay sober that way." You know? [05:56:32.847 – 05:56:36.587] And she agrees, and she says yes, and then, you know, she never calls. [05:56:36.587 – 05:56:41.287] And I, it's like when I got sober, you know, I was, I was going to meetings. [05:56:41.287 – 05:56:42.707] I had problems every day. [05:56:42.707 – 05:56:43.827] I had questions every day. [05:56:43.827 – 05:56:49.857] And I asked my sponsor, and I asked the people at meetings, and I whined, and I moaned, and I got answers, you know? [05:56:49.857 – 05:56:54.787] But if, if somebody comes in and doesn't have any answers, how do I help them?

[05:56:54.787 – 05:56:59.807] How do I put that in her heart that, you know, I can't help her unless she's got a problem. [05:56:59.807 – 05:57:00.147] Yeah. [05:57:00.147 – 05:57:00.547] You know? [05:57:00.547 – 05:57:04.747] And, and so it's, it's killing me because I don't wanna tell her to find somebody else. [05:57:04.747 – 05:57:07.806] But, you know, all she does is call me and gives me- Yeah … [05:57:07.806 – 05:57:09.197] like, you know, what she did that week. [05:57:09.197 – 05:57:09.216] Yeah. [05:57:09.216 – 05:57:11.867] Let me take a shot at that before we– the bell's gonna ring on me here. [05:57:11.867 – 05:57:13.727] We got– Let me take a shot.

[05:57:13.727 – 05:57:16.807] Let, let me just, you know, naturally I'm gonna tell you about my experience. [05:57:16.807 – 05:57:23.407] But the sponsorship to me is an extremely important… [05:57:23.407 – 05:57:26.087] It's almost like a business commitment. [05:57:26.087 – 05:57:33.947] If somebody walked up to me, and often do, and say, "Will you sponsor me?" My abs– My, my routine answer is no. [05:57:33.947 – 05:57:40.787] And then my next comment is, "But I'd be glad to talk with you about it." You know? [05:57:40.787 – 05:57:43.407] And that's like hitting on somebody to dance or something.

[05:57:43.407 – 05:57:44.387] You know, somebody asks you that. [05:57:44.387 – 05:57:48.987] And, and I think you're talking about an awfully important human transaction. [05:57:48.987 – 05:57:55.347] And so when somebody asks me, what I want to do is have at least about a two-hour meeting. [05:57:55.347 – 05:58:03.787] And during the course of that meeting, we will establish basic understanding and ground rules about how this relationship will work. [05:58:03.787 – 05:58:07.067] Who's gonna call who, when, how often? [05:58:07.067 – 05:58:09.847] What kind of expectations do they have? [05:58:09.847 – 05:58:11.707] What kind of expectations do I have? [05:58:11.707 – 05:58:16.307] You know, like the guy was talking about that, that had the counselor for 13 years.

[05:58:16.307 – 05:58:18.627] It prob-probably would surprise you. [05:58:18.627 – 05:58:21.567] One, one of the first thing I said to him was, "Now be, uh, be sure. [05:58:21.567 – 05:58:24.587] I'm gonna tell you what the ground looks like, 'cause you may not wanna do this. [05:58:24.587 – 05:58:26.567] Uh, number one's a home group. [05:58:26.567 – 05:58:29.147] You, you're gonna do some service. [05:58:29.147 – 05:58:31.307] There's gonna be regular contact. [05:58:31.307 – 05:58:36.007] You're gonna get into some stuff, and if you're not interested in that, you got the wrong guy," you know. [05:58:36.007 – 05:58:44.407] And, and so I think it's awfully important if you m– So many times we'll start out sponsorship and sort of see what happens.

[05:58:44.407 – 05:58:46.047] In fact, those words are used a lot. [05:58:46.047 – 05:58:52.387] "Well, we'll try it and see what happens." That, that to me is just not a good basis for sponsorship. [05:58:52.387 – 05:59:00.207] So I like to set it up so there's good clarity of understanding and not this sort of thing of trying to chase each other down or stuff like that. [05:59:00.207 – 05:59:07.987] When you've got some well understood things, you can, you can then determine clearly you're either doing it or you're not. [05:59:07.987 – 05:59:10.147] But that needs to be understood first.

[05:59:10.147 – 05:59:14.027] That's, so that's what I say is, is to lay out, is have a renegotiation. [05:59:14.027 – 05:59:15.307] Say, "Look, this thing ain't going well. [05:59:15.307 – 05:59:18.987] Let's set some ground rules here." And, and so it's understood. [05:59:18.987 – 05:59:21.367] You know, nobody's gonna be surprised or disappointed. [05:59:21.367 – 05:59:23.327] So that, that's the way I like to go about it. [05:59:23.327 – 05:59:29.667] If it doesn't have that good solid basis, uh, y-y-it's like spinning your wheels trying to catch in there. [05:59:29.667 – 05:59:31.087] That, that'd be my suggestion. [05:59:31.087 – 05:59:36.667] Well, folks, I, I tell you what, I, I could be– I could go for the week and, uh, would love doing it.

[05:59:36.667 – 05:59:37.217] Thank you. [05:59:37.217 – 05:59:39.467] But, uh, the old man's gonna leave me if I don't quit. [05:59:39.467 – 05:59:41.077] So thanks a million. [05:59:41.077 – 05:59:42.387] Great to be with you. [05:59:42.387 – 05:59:46.107] Thank you. [05:59:46.107 – 05:59:46.257] Thank you. [05:59:46.257 – 05:59:47.087] Thank you very much.