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[00:00:00.080 – 00:00:01.640] Tom is an alcoholic. [00:00:01.640 – 00:00:06.340] A member of the primary purpose group of A Southern Pines, North Carolina. [00:00:06.340 – 00:00:09.360] And if my voice sounds different, it's because it is. [00:00:09.360 – 00:00:11.360] I got a little bronchial infection, hadn't I? [00:00:11.360 – 00:00:16.160] So, uh, if I s- if I stop in mid-stride, Sandy, it'll mean it's kicked in. [00:00:16.160 – 00:00:19.960] And so we're well-rehearsed enough that we'll just fall right in. [00:00:19.960 – 00:00:20.520] You won't even know. [00:00:20.520 – 00:00:22.280] You'll think I'm still up here. [00:00:22.280 – 00:00:23.730] Yes. [00:00:23.730 – 00:00:26.280] Uh, the, uh… [00:00:26.280 – 00:00:29.020] And I, I re– and I count it a pleasure to work for this guy.

[00:00:29.020 – 00:00:36.720] I don't know of anybody that's more steeped in knowledge and insight and ability to communicate what this program's about than my buddy. [00:00:36.720 – 00:00:40.920] And so I'm, I'm just, uh, pleased to be here, pleased to be dealing with what we're dealing with. [00:00:40.920 – 00:00:43.780] And I've come close to what he said. [00:00:43.780 – 00:00:45.840] I'll probably, uh, deviate a little bit. [00:00:45.840 – 00:00:48.740] That, that's just the way drunks are, you know. [00:00:48.740 – 00:00:52.040] It is- I got… [00:00:52.040 – 00:00:55.320] I'm extremely well prepared. [00:00:55.320 – 00:00:58.820] This is for show. [00:00:58.820 – 00:01:02.720] It looks like a whole bunch of stuff.

[00:01:02.720 – 00:01:07.240] There is a lot of stuff in there, none of which has anything to do with what we're doing this week. [00:01:07.240 – 00:01:10.700] At least not much, anyway. [00:01:10.700 – 00:01:19.180] And, uh, my, uh, my, uh, material is compliments of the Palmer House. [00:01:19.180 – 00:01:29.300] So what, what I, what– how I wanna approach what, what Sandy was talking about, I, I guess they, they, they [00:01:29.300 – 00:01:32.540] kind of looked for one of the older dudes to talk about history. [00:01:32.540 – 00:01:44.490] Uh- I'm working on my forty-ninth year in the fellowship, and that- They

[00:01:44.490 – 00:01:48.620] always figure they wanna get you on before you check out because they know you're not gonna be here too long. [00:01:48.620 – 00:01:51.920] And that's why they put us on Friday. [00:01:51.920 – 00:01:53.710] They didn't think we'd last till Sunday. [00:01:53.710 – 00:02:04.080] And yeah, I don't think there's any, any special knowledge that comes out of, out of that kind of, um, [00:02:04.080 – 00:02:05.140] um, um, vintage. [00:02:05.140 – 00:02:15.200] But it, it does cause some proximity, in that I'm, I'm one of the, one of the fortunate people still remaining on the planet who had the chance to meet and

[00:02:15.200 – 00:02:16.880] interact a little with Bill, our founder. [00:02:16.880 – 00:02:19.440] And, uh, value that. [00:02:19.440 – 00:02:20.740] He valued that enormously. [00:02:20.740 – 00:02:26.480] And, and knew a good many of the first hundred members. [00:02:26.480 – 00:02:26.660] Yeah. [00:02:26.660 – 00:02:29.520] And so there– it's a part of the, the legacy. [00:02:29.520 – 00:02:36.040] Uh, and, uh, and it sort of gives me a feel about history, if not a, a, an, an, an overwhelming knowledge. [00:02:36.040 – 00:02:38.000] Now, how, how I wanna s… [00:02:38.000 – 00:02:45.520] In, in all honesty, I'm not overly interested in, in the facts, the details of history.

[00:02:45.520 – 00:02:48.079] I'm interested in what happened. [00:02:48.079 – 00:02:49.040] You know, what happened. [00:02:49.040 – 00:02:54.280] And whether it happened on Tuesday the ninth or, or two years later, I couldn't care less. [00:02:54.280 – 00:02:56.880] I'm just, I'm just grateful that it happened. [00:02:56.880 – 00:02:58.940] So I'm not a technician on history. [00:02:58.940 – 00:03:03.320] If you wanna challenge, uh, me on any date, I probably won't mention any. [00:03:03.320 – 00:03:08.350] I'll yield to whatever you think because I won't try- I won't try to defend it. [00:03:08.350 – 00:03:18.700] Yeah, and so, so what's important to me is, is where we came from, and I wanna look at history from the standpoint of the, the deli- the developmental

[00:03:18.700 – 00:03:20.500] consideration of history. [00:03:20.500 – 00:03:25.340] What was it in our history that shaped us to do things the way we do them? [00:03:25.340 – 00:03:30.020] And so I just wanna pick out a few highlights and, and, uh, and walk you through a bit of that. [00:03:30.020 – 00:03:32.459] Most of it you'll be very familiar with. [00:03:32.459 – 00:03:33.460] With… [00:03:33.460 – 00:03:43.740] Although we didn't start, um, with Ebby and Roland, uh, it, it's the, it's the place where the, the visible identification [00:03:43.740 – 00:03:49.220] of, of our roots, uh, came, uh, from, uh, from those two guys and the experience that happened.

[00:03:49.220 – 00:03:59.240] And, and, and you, you, you remember that story, that, that Ebby was the town clown up in Vermont, and they had him arrested for shooting birds or something in, [00:03:59.240 – 00:04:00.320] in his house or whatever. [00:04:00.320 – 00:04:02.780] Doing something goofy, as usual. [00:04:02.780 – 00:04:12.900] And they had him in court getting ready to lock him up, and Roland was a guy who had been struck sober by God after talking to a psychiatrist in [00:04:12.900 – 00:04:13.500] Switzerland. [00:04:13.500 – 00:04:14.000] Remember that? [00:04:14.000 – 00:04:19.800] You know, he talk– went to this eminent guy in, uh, in Switzerland, got struck bone dry.

[00:04:19.800 – 00:04:22.000] Now, unfortunately, it didn't stay that way. [00:04:22.000 – 00:04:30.330] But he stayed that way long enough to do something with Ebby that I think formed some of the ethics of, of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:04:30.330 – 00:04:40.400] And, and so when he heard that his buddy Ebby was in trouble down at the courthouse, he went to the court, and he petitioned the judge to, "Let me [00:04:40.400 – 00:04:41.240] have this guy. [00:04:41.240 – 00:04:47.720] Let me try to do something with him." And so the judge were glad to turn him over to anybody that would just take him out of town.

[00:04:47.720 – 00:04:49.620] And so he gave him to Roland. [00:04:49.620 – 00:04:59.660] And, uh, it's interesting to me that the, the trail that led to the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous, you now see that in [00:04:59.660 – 00:05:05.360] a whole different kind of s- of stage, because we still do a lot of interaction with courts. [00:05:05.360 – 00:05:15.380] But I, I'll come back to it and contrast what happened between Ebby and, and, and the judge and Roland and what we do now. [00:05:15.380 – 00:05:18.380] And, and what you'll observe is a hundred and eighty degree difference in it.

[00:05:18.380 – 00:05:19.680] And so… [00:05:19.680 – 00:05:21.660] But that, that sort of laid the groundwork. [00:05:21.660 – 00:05:23.420] And, and, and Ebby got sober. [00:05:23.420 – 00:05:34.300] And, and, and then he, you know, what that set up, I think the principle that came out of that was about active outreach [00:05:34.300 – 00:05:39.840] and a thing we today call CPC, a cooperation with the professional community. [00:05:39.840 – 00:05:44.340] And that's exactly what that was for the, the well-being of, of, of, of Ebby. [00:05:44.340 – 00:05:47.860] And so he wound up down in New York, sober. [00:05:47.860 – 00:05:50.340] Jumped into the Oxford Group, got very active in that.

[00:05:50.340 – 00:05:59.620] And his friend from, from, from, uh, back home in Vermont, Bill Wilson, was living in New York. [00:05:59.620 – 00:06:02.180] Ebby made a, a call on him. [00:06:02.180 – 00:06:05.960] He just called him up and said, uh, he wanted to come visit. [00:06:05.960 – 00:06:11.028] And if you know the history, Bill was thrilled because he knew Ebby would bring, bring a jug. [00:06:11.028 – 00:06:18.068] And, uh, to his dismay, Ebby came in sober and acting weird. [00:06:18.068 – 00:06:27.528] And, uh, and Bill asked him what was wrong, and he said, "I got religion." Well, his thoughts of a drunken orgy were gone.

[00:06:27.528 – 00:06:31.008] And so he's sitting there with this fella with, uh, gleaming eyes. [00:06:31.008 – 00:06:35.048] And, uh well, if you ever saw Ebby, I had the chance to meet him. [00:06:35.048 – 00:06:38.908] Gleaming eyes is not the way to describe Ebby. [00:06:38.908 – 00:06:42.388] He looked like death warmed over, I swear to God. [00:06:42.388 – 00:06:44.088] An ugly boy. [00:06:44.088 – 00:06:50.928] But anyway, he's working on, he, he working on Bill, and he told Bill he got religion. [00:06:50.928 – 00:06:53.088] And Bill got a little intrigued by it. [00:06:53.088 – 00:07:03.308] Then he wound up stumbling in and out of the Oxford groups for a while, uh, getting on, trying to sa- to savor that kind of religious nectar.

[00:07:03.308 – 00:07:12.548] But something happened when he met with Ebby because he met a guy who was like him, who didn't seem to be like him anymore. [00:07:12.548 – 00:07:16.968] And that made an indelible impression on him, that there really was a way out of this thing. [00:07:16.968 – 00:07:19.888] So he fumbled with it, and he didn't have much success. [00:07:19.888 – 00:07:22.648] You know, he w- he was just drunk on a, on the installment plan. [00:07:22.648 – 00:07:27.608] And, and so he, he finally wound up on, on what turned out to be…

[00:07:27.608 – 00:07:33.407] I'll skip over a bunch of them, what turned out to be his last, uh, trip to, uh, to, uh, Towns Hospital. [00:07:33.407 – 00:07:38.688] And, and I wanna underline the name William Silkworth. [00:07:38.688 – 00:07:40.228] William Silkworth. [00:07:40.228 – 00:07:41.548] The, uh… [00:07:41.548 – 00:07:49.608] because for my money, William Silkworth could be named one of the, the third founders of this program, that his role was so, so important. [00:07:49.608 – 00:08:00.068] And, and what happened to Bill, and I think everybody today is familiar with, with his experience, where he's, he's gone through this, this thing, and he finally got to that point of utter desperation

[00:08:00.068 – 00:08:10.408] and cried out, "God, if there is a God, show yourself to me." And he had that well-known hot flash, that great white light, [00:08:10.408 – 00:08:16.108] where he had that transforming experience, and he was to never be the same man again. [00:08:16.108 – 00:08:26.168] And, and he, uh, he went through that change, and for some reason, Sandy mentioned this e- earlier with he and I, he [00:08:26.168 – 00:08:33.848] came out of that not only with restoration with his own problem, but with a zeal to help other alcoholics.

[00:08:33.848 – 00:08:44.008] And, and the reason I say that we ought to underline Silkworth was that what happened to Bill, I don't know, I've had things like that, [00:08:44.008 – 00:08:47.288] seem like that happen to me from drinking too much wine. [00:08:47.288 – 00:08:56.408] And, and, and I just get really wild, crazy, and, and at those times, most of the time they put a net on me and lock me up somewhere. [00:08:56.408 – 00:09:06.828] But with Bill, we were blessed with having a guy who had the insight and wisdom to say, "Hey, Bill, I

[00:09:06.828 – 00:09:17.228] don't know what happened, man, but you better keep it because it sure beats what you had." That was wonderful counsel into a, a, a, a, a region [00:09:17.228 – 00:09:18.528] that we hadn't gone. [00:09:18.528 – 00:09:23.728] And he was able to steady Bill and, and say, "Hang with it. [00:09:23.728 – 00:09:27.008] Hang with it." What a great example of CPC, eh? [00:09:27.008 – 00:09:34.268] What a great example for, for a guy to have enough insight to steady the guy and say, "Hang on, buddy. [00:09:34.268 – 00:09:44.348] Hang on." And, um, and then later, uh, was brave enough when it was totally unheard of to let a patient that's just barely sober come back

[00:09:44.348 – 00:09:51.508] into the hospital and carry the message, well, we didn't have a message then, but to carry his experience to other patients. [00:09:51.508 – 00:09:53.568] Wonderful thing. [00:09:53.568 – 00:10:00.128] Now, when you look at the history, you see the powerful role that our friends outside had. [00:10:00.128 – 00:10:01.728] Thank God for them. [00:10:01.728 – 00:10:05.308] 'Cause if it hadn't been, I doubt if we we'd probably gone to the moon. [00:10:05.308 – 00:10:05.488] You know? [00:10:05.488 – 00:10:11.808] But we had people, blessed with people who held us steady while we, uh, while we kind of got things going.

[00:10:11.808 – 00:10:18.688] And, uh, so that beginning, you know, and Bill, Bill had, uh… [00:10:18.688 – 00:10:26.688] Bill had a, a, a, a real good experience with chasing drunks. [00:10:26.688 – 00:10:31.148] Now, I'll just mention one thing about a lady that was to be formidable in Al-Anon. [00:10:31.148 – 00:10:37.208] It's amazing how m- how people are helpful to us, uh, more than they may realize. [00:10:37.208 – 00:10:40.288] But if you remember w- w- when Bill was going through all this… [00:10:40.687 – 00:10:50.407] He had nothing but disappointment, failure, nobody staying sober, had somebody trying to commit suicide in the house, all this kind of stuff, just the typical mayhem of dealing with drunks.

[00:10:50.407 – 00:10:57.107] And he said to his wife one day, uh, with total discouragement, "This thing isn't working. [00:10:57.107 – 00:11:00.607] Nobody is, is, is catching on. [00:11:00.607 – 00:11:06.967] Nobody's getting straight." And Lois, Bill's wife, said something profoundly important. [00:11:06.967 – 00:11:08.867] She said, "Yeah, Bill, you are. [00:11:08.867 – 00:11:17.547] You are." And that set a principle, set a principle that there's no such thing as an unsuccessful 12-step call. [00:11:17.547 – 00:11:27.627] There's no such thing as an, as an unsuccessful attempt to reach out to somebody else because it's the reaching out to people that gives

[00:11:27.627 – 00:11:30.507] us what we need, that strengthens us. [00:11:30.507 – 00:11:32.287] And so results are not what make that. [00:11:32.287 – 00:11:32.987] It's effort. [00:11:32.987 – 00:11:38.887] So the, that notion that we try to carry the message, and if we do it sincerely, we can't miss. [00:11:38.887 – 00:11:45.287] And so Bill got through that, that period, and then he started to get his d- a little bit of business back together. [00:11:45.287 – 00:11:49.667] He was a sort of unsuccessful stockbroker with a lot of imagination. [00:11:49.667 – 00:11:59.787] And, uh and he got a, he, he, he got a, a business opportunity, and he made that, that trip to, not too far from here, to, uh, to Akron,

[00:11:59.787 – 00:12:00.927] Ohio. [00:12:00.927 – 00:12:06.847] And, uh, I think even in its heyday, Akron was a kind of a sad place, even when it was bustling. [00:12:06.847 – 00:12:08.567] Man, it's really sad now. [00:12:08.567 – 00:12:13.087] It's filled with empty buildings of where tire factories used to be. [00:12:13.087 – 00:12:19.807] They– But Bill went there, and he went on this venture, and he had this scheme of some way he was gonna sell a bunch of stuff. [00:12:19.807 – 00:12:23.247] And as sometimes happened, nothing worked out. [00:12:23.247 – 00:12:24.807] Nothing worked out. [00:12:24.807 – 00:12:32.147] And, and so here he is in a, in a strange town, and he's run his course.

[00:12:32.147 – 00:12:39.087] You ever been there, where you've just run your course and you can't think of any other angle to shoot? [00:12:39.087 – 00:12:43.027] And that's where Bill was, and God knows I've been there many times. [00:12:43.027 – 00:12:45.887] And I t- I tell you this. [00:12:45.887 – 00:12:47.047] I, I had an opportunity. [00:12:47.047 – 00:12:47.957] I didn't have an opportunity. [00:12:47.957 – 00:12:48.927] I made an opportunity. [00:12:48.927 – 00:12:57.337] I was in Akron a while back, a few years back, and, um, I, I, every time I go up there, somebody, I get somebody to take me on the historic tour.

[00:12:57.337 – 00:13:05.107] And it's just a marvelous experience to, to go back and revisit those places and, and just touch base with where we came from. [00:13:05.107 – 00:13:07.387] And, uh, I al- always treasure that. [00:13:07.387 – 00:13:10.707] I had never gone into the Mayflower, uh, Hotel. [00:13:10.707 – 00:13:18.567] And I'd always wanted to, but it was, it had been converted from a hotel into some kind of a sheltered environment for a special population. [00:13:18.567 – 00:13:19.227] I'm not sure who. [00:13:19.227 – 00:13:22.067] And, and, you know, you gotta respect their, their privacy.

[00:13:22.067 – 00:13:32.067] And so I never had gone in, but I was tr- walking around one day with an enterprising drunk, and he said, "Would you like to go in the Mayflower?" I said, "Yeah, but you can't do that." He said, "Watch this." And, [00:13:32.067 – 00:13:35.207] uh- My kind of drunk. [00:13:35.207 – 00:13:40.067] So he just waited till somebody came out, grabbed the door, said, "Come on." So we're in. [00:13:40.067 – 00:13:47.907] Then we walk in the hotel, and w- w- we're on what, what they call the lobby, but it's really the mezzanine.

[00:13:47.907 – 00:13:49.427] It was that second, second landing. [00:13:49.427 – 00:13:51.987] And, and so I went up there with the guy. [00:13:51.987 – 00:13:57.687] And you know how sometimes there's things that you just want to be private, that, that you don't wanna talk about it. [00:13:57.687 – 00:14:02.167] You just wanna experience it and savor the experience. [00:14:02.167 – 00:14:09.047] And, and without planning, you know, I, I found myself standing there, and it's something about a bar. [00:14:09.047 – 00:14:09.487] I don't care. [00:14:09.487 – 00:14:13.687] You could make the Sistine Chapel out of it, it still looks like a bar.

[00:14:13.687 – 00:14:15.607] I mean, you, uh, you don't have– Nobody has to tell you. [00:14:15.607 – 00:14:20.027] You walk in there and say, "Man, this was a bar." And you just know it. [00:14:20.027 – 00:14:22.707] It's that intuitive knowledge of the alcoholic. [00:14:22.707 – 00:14:29.667] And so so I went in, and, uh, and I knew that was the bar. [00:14:29.667 – 00:14:34.867] And I was casing it, you know, looking over in the sink over there where the phone was and is. [00:14:34.867 – 00:14:41.427] And, uh, I'm, I'm sitting there, and that, you know, virtual reality, I, I, is what you call it now.

[00:14:41.427 – 00:14:46.907] But I'm sitting there kind of playing through my own mind. [00:14:46.907 – 00:14:57.127] Now, I didn't have to use any imagination because I've been to that point where I was down to my last shekel and totally out of plans [00:14:57.127 – 00:14:59.886] and no earthly idea of what to do. [00:14:59.886 – 00:15:08.747] And had been, been torn between either fighting again or giving up, and I always gave up. [00:15:08.747 – 00:15:10.807] And so I'm, I'm sitting there. [00:15:10.807 – 00:15:11.647] I don't… [00:15:11.647 – 00:15:13.547] And, and I just c- I just feel that.

[00:15:13.547 – 00:15:15.147] I started to, to… [00:15:15.147 – 00:15:20.787] I, I walked through how I saw Bill's experience occurring. [00:15:20.787 – 00:15:22.887] And I physically took the walk. [00:15:22.887 – 00:15:25.627] I, I walked back and forth across that lobby. [00:15:25.627 – 00:15:26.827] Didn't say anything to my buddy. [00:15:26.827 – 00:15:37.027] But I'm just walking back and forth from the one side of that lobby to the other and, and reliving how it feels to be standing on the brink of that [00:15:37.067 – 00:15:39.947] and not wanting to do it, but I always did. [00:15:39.947 – 00:15:40.447] Yeah. [00:15:40.447 – 00:15:47.587] And, um, and then, and then, uh, and he walked on over to the phone and, and made that historic phone call.

[00:15:47.587 – 00:15:55.247] I, I tell you what really impacted me w- that, that day was, was not only reliving the experience. [00:15:55.247 – 00:15:59.887] It's like listening to a drunk tell his story, but I was listening to Bill's story. [00:15:59.887 – 00:16:01.387] And oh my. [00:16:01.387 – 00:16:11.707] And I'll tell you what struck me profoundly that day, and does to this day, was that I, I felt the full realization of [00:16:11.707 – 00:16:22.067] what a tremendously critical juncture that was in our history because the destiny of every one of us hung directly

[00:16:22.067 – 00:16:24.947] on the actions that Bill Wilson took that day. [00:16:24.947 – 00:16:29.407] We were hanging by an extremely slender thread. [00:16:29.407 – 00:16:32.447] And thank God he made the right moves. [00:16:32.447 – 00:16:38.127] If he'd have made the wrong move, we may still have a destiny to come, but it would've been different. [00:16:38.127 – 00:16:39.427] It would've been different. [00:16:39.427 – 00:16:49.531] But this guy, with the help of his God, went over, picked up the phone, called, made that historic phone call to, um, to, um- This, [00:16:49.531 – 00:16:53.631] this Reverend Tom fella i-in Akron, and ask him that.

[00:16:53.631 – 00:16:55.451] It had to be a weird sounding question. [00:16:55.451 – 00:16:57.051] I need a drunk. [00:16:57.051 – 00:16:58.391] You know, I need an alcoholic. [00:16:58.391 – 00:17:01.071] Very few people order an alcoholic. [00:17:01.071 – 00:17:05.231] I can, I can just imagine a… [00:17:05.231 – 00:17:13.731] I can just imagine that guy saying, "What'd you say?" But, but he would, again, but we were fortunate. [00:17:13.731 – 00:17:17.171] Okay, this guy seemed to have an inkling. [00:17:17.171 – 00:17:24.851] You know, he'd been involved with Oxford groups, and he said a, an, an inkling that th-that, that what this was, this call was about.

[00:17:24.851 – 00:17:28.571] And so he gave him a, a, a list of folk. [00:17:28.571 – 00:17:32.651] And, uh, and as everybody called, that Bill called was busy. [00:17:32.651 – 00:17:34.571] You know, it is a busy world. [00:17:34.571 – 00:17:43.831] And, and then, uh, then he got a gal by the name of Henrietta that, that, on the phone that, that understood what he was talking about. [00:17:43.831 – 00:17:45.371] That understood. [00:17:45.371 – 00:17:48.991] And she was a non-alcoholic, but she understood. [00:17:48.991 – 00:17:55.330] And she said, "I think I know somebody." And, uh, and, and she set up the meeting with Dr.

[00:17:55.330 – 00:17:55.731] Bob. [00:17:55.731 – 00:18:01.891] And, uh, and, and, and that, that was a, a truly historic point i-in our history. [00:18:01.891 – 00:18:12.051] At, uh, again, this, this, this powerful relationship with our friends that help us through the fog, you know, so we can get steady and get, get strong in what we're doing. [00:18:12.051 – 00:18:21.271] And then that, that meeting with, uh, with those two men where, where they went in supposedly for 15 minutes and went about six hours. [00:18:21.271 – 00:18:23.691] True to alcoholics. [00:18:23.691 – 00:18:28.091] His workshop will probably end about Saturday three o'clock.

[00:18:28.091 – 00:18:31.351] But no, no, we'll be on time. [00:18:31.351 – 00:18:41.511] But tho-those two men met and, and ex-ex-exactly what, what Sandy was talking about in that, in the, in the great opening, [00:18:41.511 – 00:18:51.111] something forged that day that is absolutely the most universally important thing in all of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:18:51.111 – 00:19:01.131] These two folks sat down, a kind of a, a, a discredited stockbroker and a, and a, an old doc on his last [00:19:01.131 – 00:19:05.611] legs, and, and they sat down, and Bill told him his story.

[00:19:05.611 – 00:19:08.111] Told him about his condition. [00:19:08.111 – 00:19:12.511] And here's a, a stockbroker explaining an illness to a physician. [00:19:12.511 – 00:19:15.931] We didn't even call it an illness then, but he's explaining a condition. [00:19:15.931 – 00:19:26.051] And the doc's reaction was, "Finally, somebody understands." And what happened that day, unlike with Ebby, you know, that was a different [00:19:26.051 – 00:19:27.271] level of thing. [00:19:27.271 – 00:19:33.531] Here were two human beings connected at the fractured level, you know, where they were broken. [00:19:33.531 – 00:19:37.731] And these two guys, they had an identification. [00:19:37.731 – 00:19:45.671] And my belief is that what formed that day was the, the basic tenet of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[00:19:45.671 – 00:19:47.031] The basic tenet. [00:19:47.031 – 00:19:52.311] That just like Sandy was saying, everything we drew emanated from that. [00:19:52.311 – 00:19:59.851] Everything that we do grew out of that unique understanding that seemed to occur between those two guys. [00:19:59.851 – 00:20:04.051] Powerful thing. [00:20:04.051 – 00:20:06.671] I think, you know, we do a lot of stuff. [00:20:06.671 – 00:20:11.941] We, we just finished an international convention with many, many thousands of people there. [00:20:11.941 – 00:20:22.011] But I think the most noble thing that we do, the greatest we ever are, is when one alcoholic sincerely opens,

[00:20:22.011 – 00:20:24.471] excuse me, opens up and shares with another. [00:20:24.471 – 00:20:26.431] That's the most powerful thing. [00:20:26.431 – 00:20:29.471] And so everything else sort of emanates out of that. [00:20:29.471 – 00:20:35.201] And that form, that, that principle was formed that day in, in, in Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:20:35.201 – 00:20:45.351] I, I tell you, I, I'll just throw this, and we, we may come back to it later, but I, I really believe that there's enormous influence that does [00:20:45.351 – 00:20:48.211] and should come out of what happened with Bill and Bob. [00:20:48.211 – 00:20:55.691] You know, when you start thinking about, and I won't elaborate on it here, but just maybe tease you a little bit with it.

[00:20:55.691 – 00:21:06.131] When you start thinking about things that are troubling to you in Alcoholics Anonymous, things that you worry about and wish were done differently, the basic [00:21:06.131 – 00:21:10.151] measure of where it is, is in regard to that basic tenet. [00:21:10.151 – 00:21:14.771] It either is in congruent with that or it's moving away. [00:21:14.771 – 00:21:17.671] And if it's moving away, it's moving into thin ice. [00:21:17.671 – 00:21:20.601] And so I think it's fundamentally important, that piece- [00:21:20.781 – 00:21:28.581] Our history, defining who we are, and putting a limit on how grandiose we get in our notions of who we are.

[00:21:28.581 – 00:21:32.981] That's a tremendously im-important thing that, that happened that day. [00:21:32.981 – 00:21:35.941] Then the, uh… [00:21:35.941 – 00:21:39.201] I don't, I, I've got North Carolina time. [00:21:39.201 – 00:21:41.221] I don't- You know what. [00:21:41.221 – 00:21:44.051] I don't have, have a clue what time it is. [00:21:44.051 – 00:21:45.651] It's 11:00. [00:21:45.651 – 00:21:46.301] Is it 11:00? [00:21:46.301 – 00:21:47.231] It's 11:00. [00:21:47.231 – 00:21:48.081] It's an hour early. [00:21:48.081 – 00:21:49.061] Huh? [00:21:49.061 – 00:21:51.051] It's an hour earlier than that. [00:21:51.051 – 00:21:52.121] I appreciate that, Julia. [00:21:52.121 – 00:22:00.031] One reason I'm in this shape today, I turned myself over to Julia and Phil yesterday- … [00:22:00.031 – 00:22:03.501] and said, "Have your way with me." And they did.

[00:22:03.501 – 00:22:04.601] Man, we were in pris… [00:22:04.601 – 00:22:05.541] Well, anyway. [00:22:05.541 – 00:22:09.561] I was ready for bed last night, put it that way. [00:22:09.561 – 00:22:13.781] I, I, I won't rush us too much now, but I, I, I, I've, I've, I've… [00:22:13.781 – 00:22:16.121] We got about 100 years of stuff… [00:22:16.121 – 00:22:16.781] Not quite, but I… [00:22:16.781 – 00:22:18.121] We got a bunch of stuff to go. [00:22:18.121 – 00:22:25.121] But I, I think you can sort of see where, where we're trying to get with this thing, is what is it that forms us as we are?

[00:22:25.121 – 00:22:31.461] And then when we take a look at where we are today, are we where we say we wanna be? [00:22:31.461 – 00:22:33.701] Is, is the whole thrust of the, the, of this thing. [00:22:33.701 – 00:22:40.181] And, and so, you know, with what happened with those guys, they hung together, and then they found a third guy. [00:22:40.181 – 00:22:46.001] And, and so the whole concept of each one reach one was born, and they started to, to move on. [00:22:46.001 – 00:22:49.501] And they captured that drunk lawyer and brought him to submission.

[00:22:49.501 – 00:22:51.121] And then, then on and on. [00:22:51.121 – 00:22:59.221] And, and, uh, there was a little gal in, uh, Akron, in Cleveland, who was, for me… [00:22:59.221 – 00:23:06.101] Somebody wrote a book about her a while back, called it Sister Ignacia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:23:06.101 – 00:23:11.721] If you haven't seen that book, it is a, a wonderful read. [00:23:11.721 – 00:23:13.781] And, uh, it just, I think I… [00:23:13.781 – 00:23:23.861] It gave me an appreciation of the tremendous value of her role in the forming just the basic operational procedures that we

[00:23:23.861 – 00:23:24.541] do at AA. [00:23:24.541 – 00:23:26.421] Uh, and her work with Dr. [00:23:26.421 – 00:23:29.360] Bob in, in starting to get people into, to pay… [00:23:29.360 – 00:23:33.201] You know, Bob gets all the credit, but Sister Ignacia did all the work. [00:23:33.201 – 00:23:38.261] She, she almost got defrocked with, by the Catholic Church 'cause she was… [00:23:38.261 – 00:23:41.461] Well, that was, that was a whole story by itself. [00:23:41.461 – 00:23:42.041] Read the book. [00:23:42.041 – 00:23:43.261] It, it's a great read. [00:23:43.261 – 00:23:47.861] And, uh, but what a tremendous gal she is, and, or was. [00:23:47.861 – 00:23:49.401] A, a great gal.

[00:23:49.401 – 00:23:54.381] And what a super con- uh, contribution that that gal lives on. [00:23:54.381 – 00:23:58.481] I've spoken to Sister Ignacia banquet about a year or so ago down in Cleveland. [00:23:58.481 – 00:24:00.141] She lives on in this program. [00:24:00.141 – 00:24:02.541] And so tremendous, tremendous role. [00:24:02.541 – 00:24:11.621] And, and, and what it set up ag-again was that professional community meshing well with, with, with, with our efforts at AAs for a good outcome. [00:24:11.621 – 00:24:13.081] I, I'll tell you one thing. [00:24:13.081 – 00:24:14.861] It's funny how a legacy lives on. [00:24:14.861 – 00:24:21.321] Uh, I have the, the, the, the opportunity to travel extensively all around the, the country.

[00:24:21.321 – 00:24:27.281] Akron, Ohio, is the only place I know where the original hospital ethic is in place. [00:24:27.281 – 00:24:30.761] They still do it like it was 1935. [00:24:30.761 – 00:24:37.241] They got different languages and stuffup, but my God, they still do it just like they did in the old days. [00:24:37.241 – 00:24:38.981] And that's the only place in the country as I know. [00:24:38.981 – 00:24:42.621] So that, a huge contribution. [00:24:42.621 – 00:24:51.021] The, uh, little, a fella by the name of Clarence Snyder, he emerged in that, in that early influx of AAs.

[00:24:51.021 – 00:25:01.501] And, and Clarence Snyder was a guy, he had a little different drumbeat, but he did some s- some signal work in Alcoholics Anonymous that had profound [00:25:01.501 – 00:25:02.141] impact. [00:25:02.141 – 00:25:06.041] Yeah, I think he was the guy that perfected the art of the 12-step call. [00:25:06.041 – 00:25:10.961] And for my money, he influenced the development of sponsorship a- as well as anybody I know. [00:25:10.961 – 00:25:18.361] He was a, a real, real driving, hard-driving, crusading type of fella, and did great work. [00:25:18.361 – 00:25:21.741] He, by the way, is buried about, uh, 10 miles from my house.

[00:25:21.741 – 00:25:25.781] And, uh, never knew that. [00:25:25.781 – 00:25:27.301] He, but anyway, I knew it now. [00:25:27.301 – 00:25:29.041] I went to the funeral, so I knew where they buried him. [00:25:29.041 – 00:25:29.581] I was there. [00:25:29.581 – 00:25:35.041] But he was a great contributor in those early days of formulating this thing. [00:25:35.041 – 00:25:40.161] He never did give up on the notion that the general service office ought to be in his garage. [00:25:40.161 – 00:25:44.561] But other than that, he was j- he was right on. [00:25:44.561 – 00:25:47.181] Uh- … [00:25:47.181 – 00:25:47.581] the, uh… [00:25:47.581 – 00:25:51.081] We started to get a little bit of growth.

[00:25:51.081 – 00:25:54.841] Now, it doesn't take much growth for alcoholics to get grandiose. [00:25:54.841 – 00:25:57.561] Can you imagine? [00:25:57.561 – 00:25:59.741] There are more people… [00:25:59.741 – 00:26:10.231] When, when we formed the notion of a worldwide movement, there are three times as many people in this room as there were in all of Alcoholics [00:26:10.231 – 00:26:10.701] Anonymous. [00:26:10.701 – 00:26:14.101] And these guys are taking on a worldwide movement. [00:26:14.101 – 00:26:14.981] Can you imagine? [00:26:14.981 – 00:26:20.731] Can you imagine if somebody said, "I make a motion that we invade China," or something like that? [00:26:20.731 – 00:26:24.881] I mean, that sounds goofy now, but that's about what they were doing.

[00:26:24.881 – 00:26:33.041] They said, these guys just had that crazy vision of doing something, and they, uh, they were interesting crowd. [00:26:33.041 – 00:26:38.581] They go- And they, uh, with all of that overwhelming success, they must have had 40, 50 members. [00:26:38.581 – 00:26:47.401] They said, "We need to write a book to tell the world about this thing, so everybody will know to jump on the bandwagon." And so they wrote the book. [00:26:47.401 – 00:26:48.921] Like to killed each other doing it. [00:26:48.921 – 00:26:50.581] But they wrote the book. [00:26:50.581 – 00:26:52.641] Bill held the pen, and they held his feet.

[00:26:52.641 – 00:26:54.551] And so- … [00:26:54.551 – 00:26:59.941] they, so they, they wrestled it together and, and, uh, and, and produced the book out of that crowd. [00:26:59.941 – 00:27:10.161] That's, that's always struck me as, uh, as, uh, as just so typically alcoholic, that you take off on this barnstorming deal, and they're barely out of the starting blocks [00:27:10.161 – 00:27:11.461] a year ago. [00:27:11.461 – 00:27:12.441] Thank God for it. [00:27:12.441 – 00:27:14.901] Uh, if it had been me, we'd have probably had it in my backyard. [00:27:14.901 – 00:27:17.621] But great deal. [00:27:17.621 – 00:27:27.621] A thing that happened, and it's in line with that sort of grandios- grandiosity that was, uh, emerging then, was, uh, you know, folks always think you

[00:27:27.621 – 00:27:28.781] gotta throw money at it. [00:27:28.781 – 00:27:32.497] To, to make it work right, that you gotta have some money. [00:27:32.497 – 00:27:34.437] Uh, I'm not one of them. [00:27:34.437 – 00:27:40.277] I believe when it comes to this kind of work, when you put mon-money in it, you suck the heart right out of it is what happens. [00:27:40.277 – 00:27:43.737] And that would've been true then, but, uh, if, if, if… [00:27:43.737 – 00:27:49.297] You probably remember that, that Rockefeller dinner where they took advantage of some contacts, threw together a dinner. [00:27:49.297 – 00:27:57.177] What they were gonna do was bring in to a lot of– bring in a lot of folks with deep pockets and say, "We need some money," and, and leave there billionaires.

[00:27:57.177 – 00:27:58.337] That was the plan. [00:27:58.337 – 00:28:01.957] And they put all this bunch together, put a drunk at each table. [00:28:01.957 – 00:28:05.897] Some of them– One of them, one table said the guy just got out of the nuthouse two or three days earlier. [00:28:05.897 – 00:28:13.997] But they had him there to give credibility when they started talking about, "Give us the money." And, uh, so they, they made the hit. [00:28:13.997 – 00:28:24.037] Now, in the minds of us, you know, those, those, us, of us who were there then, in, in our minds, these were noble things, that if we could get some money, we could do some

[00:28:24.037 – 00:28:27.197] stuff, and we could get the work done, and all of this kind of stuff. [00:28:27.197 – 00:28:37.217] And thank God for prudent friends with insight because the Rockefeller bunch said very eloquently, "Don't [00:28:37.217 – 00:28:47.217] you think money will louse this thing up?" Profoundly important because had it not been for that, we would've gone into the [00:28:47.217 – 00:28:51.617] money business, and it would've sucked the heart out of it, and I guarantee you we'd have had a different history. [00:28:51.617 – 00:28:55.177] But thank God for those friends who said, "Don't screw it up.

[00:28:55.177 – 00:29:00.217] You got something good going." Made for some lean years, but it was tremendously important stuff. [00:29:00.217 – 00:29:02.917] It was slow growth when, when you looked at it. [00:29:02.917 – 00:29:06.857] We say 100, but that depended on what day you counted. [00:29:06.857 – 00:29:14.037] I, I Best I can tell, we never did get 100 steady soldiers, you know, that, in that first formative time. [00:29:14.037 – 00:29:17.237] And so but we were, we were moving, had some vision. [00:29:17.237 – 00:29:20.897] And, uh, and something happened in the early… [00:29:20.897 – 00:29:24.997] Well, a lot of stuff happened, but one I want to single out was that Jack Alexander thing.

[00:29:24.997 – 00:29:35.037] And, and what it did was, I, I think, demonstrated the value of public information, of, of letting people know that Alcoholics Anonymous is here, [00:29:35.037 – 00:29:36.017] that there's a solution. [00:29:36.017 – 00:29:38.597] Now, Jack Alexander wasn't the only one that did it. [00:29:38.597 – 00:29:44.817] But his– for some reason, his article had more impact than all the others put together. [00:29:44.817 – 00:29:50.997] But we started to get some recognition, probably beyond what we deserved, but, but we got a lot of it. [00:29:50.997 – 00:29:53.237] We started getting written up in some magazines.

[00:29:53.237 – 00:29:55.587] And, now Jack Alexander wrote one. [00:29:55.587 – 00:30:01.497] I guess one reason his had appeal was that he didn't write it till he attended enough meetings. [00:30:01.497 – 00:30:09.537] The way he described it, that he'd never breathed so much smoke or drank so much heavily sugared coffee in, in his life. [00:30:09.537 – 00:30:16.697] And, but when he was properly saturated with that stuff and with what he felt today, he was ready to write. [00:30:16.697 – 00:30:20.697] And he wrote an article that had enormous impact. [00:30:20.697 – 00:30:30.757] Now, you picture this fledgling group of alcoholics bunched up in New York and Akron and Cleveland, and all at once, an article goes

[00:30:30.757 – 00:30:40.837] out saying, "Hey, guys, there's help." And in no time at all, 8,000 screaming pleas for [00:30:40.837 – 00:30:41.157] help. [00:30:41.157 – 00:30:43.157] Can you imagine it? [00:30:43.157 – 00:30:51.977] Can you imagine one-third of this group answering 8,000 calls from every corner of the country? [00:30:51.977 – 00:30:54.317] That was the dilemma. [00:30:54.317 – 00:30:55.297] That was the quandary. [00:30:55.297 – 00:30:58.977] And just a whole bunch of stuff grew out of that. [00:30:58.977 – 00:31:01.437] One, certainly the, the value of public information. [00:31:01.437 – 00:31:04.357] God knows how much importance and impact that that had. [00:31:04.357 – 00:31:06.057] Tremendously important. [00:31:06.057 – 00:31:10.757] Uh, the, the other thing was that we learned a lot of ways to carry the message.

[00:31:10.757 – 00:31:12.737] There's more than one way to do it. [00:31:12.737 – 00:31:18.736] And when folks said, "What are we gonna do with all these things?" Uh, the guys said, "Some of us travel. [00:31:18.736 – 00:31:22.577] And when we travel, we'll, uh, we'll carry the message. [00:31:22.577 – 00:31:31.137] And between then, we'll write, you know, and we'll get…" And what happened, I tell you, it's the most moving part of the history to me, is I can picture… [00:31:31.137 – 00:31:32.977] In fact, I held a flag in a place. [00:31:32.977 – 00:31:42.997] But what happened was all around this country, somebody or s- or some group of somebodies, usually somebody, would get

[00:31:42.997 – 00:31:50.857] the message, and they would say, "We'll do it here," wherever that was, Yuma, Arizona, wherever. [00:31:50.857 – 00:32:00.097] And somebody stuck the flag and said, "We'll do it here, and we'll hold on till help comes." And that's exactly what happened. [00:32:00.097 – 00:32:00.977] Now, I was- [00:32:01.194 – 00:32:07.734] A town w-at one time when there was– no, I mean, there was some around there, but, but most of it was, was horizontal most of the time. [00:32:07.734 – 00:32:10.434] So it was, it was– I'm the only guy standing.

[00:32:10.434 – 00:32:17.554] And I tell you, when you're standing there holding that flag by yourself, it's a lonely vigil, and you appreciate it when the cavalry comes. [00:32:17.554 – 00:32:18.533] I, I guarantee you that. [00:32:18.533 – 00:32:22.674] So I, I, I really admire and respect those people. [00:32:22.674 – 00:32:24.754] Somebody did it in Chicago. [00:32:24.754 – 00:32:26.654] Now somebody told me who it was. [00:32:26.654 – 00:32:26.964] Harold. [00:32:26.964 – 00:32:27.474] But somebody… [00:32:27.474 – 00:32:28.754] Oh yeah, there you go. [00:32:28.754 – 00:32:30.294] Yeah, that's the guy. [00:32:30.294 – 00:32:31.044] Harold. [00:32:31.044 – 00:32:33.794] Yeah, he held the flag, and then somebody came. [00:32:33.794 – 00:32:37.494] And then before long, you got eight hundred and– or eight hundred thousand groups.

[00:32:37.494 – 00:32:39.074] You got a lot of groups in Chicago. [00:32:39.074 – 00:32:39.914] Know that. [00:32:39.914 – 00:32:41.093] But somebody started that. [00:32:41.093 – 00:32:44.314] Thank God for those folk. [00:32:44.314 – 00:32:49.774] The, uh, huge influx in the… [00:32:49.774 – 00:32:52.694] What in the world? [00:32:52.694 – 00:32:56.854] My wonderful notes have just absolutely… [00:32:56.854 – 00:33:01.114] It's fifty of something. [00:33:01.114 – 00:33:08.714] Oh, that's the date, for God's sakes. [00:33:08.714 – 00:33:12.834] That's, uh, that, that fifty was the date of our first international. [00:33:12.834 – 00:33:16.674] And, uh, and we bunched up in, uh, in Cleveland. [00:33:16.674 – 00:33:18.344] They bunched up in Cleveland. [00:33:18.344 – 00:33:20.634] It brought in– Back then it was essentially a business.

[00:33:20.634 – 00:33:22.574] They brought in delegates from around the country. [00:33:22.574 – 00:33:27.334] And, uh, in fifty the traditions were introduced to the fellowship. [00:33:27.334 – 00:33:37.374] And, uh, that was an important place where we started to, to build the future, where Bill had the foresight with the other guys to say, "Here's how this thing can [00:33:37.374 – 00:33:38.614] work," and those were introduced. [00:33:38.614 – 00:33:44.814] Knowing how we are, it gave five years to think about it before we made a decision. [00:33:44.814 – 00:33:47.334] And then, uh, five years later, down in St.

[00:33:47.334 – 00:33:51.734] Louis at the second international, uh, the traditions were, were adopted. [00:33:51.734 – 00:33:58.094] And very importantly, the fellowship was turned over to its members. [00:33:58.094 – 00:34:02.014] There was no longer any sugar daddy taking care of business. [00:34:02.014 – 00:34:04.214] And Bill became a member. [00:34:04.214 – 00:34:07.814] Now he was kind of an important member, and he was called on a lot. [00:34:07.814 – 00:34:16.514] But the dynamics were put in place for us to become a, a fellowship that's grassroots driven. [00:34:16.514 – 00:34:26.534] And, and something I hope we'll visit a little bit more, but, but the, the deal is it's in our hands, and there's no longer any kind of a central leadership

[00:34:26.534 – 00:34:31.334] point, and the leadership will come from, from us all around the, all around the country. [00:34:31.334 – 00:34:40.354] Very important place in our history where we had to take that thing and, and, and become responsible all across the board. [00:34:40.354 – 00:34:50.514] Um, the, the thing I, I think I wanna wrap a– I, I wanna wrap up around this is, um, [00:34:50.514 – 00:34:54.494] in, in talking about… [00:34:54.494 – 00:34:57.854] I, I wanna put just a general characterization. [00:34:57.854 – 00:35:04.653] You know, w-that part was sort of talking about how the fellowship d-d-developed, you know, how we grew as a fellowship.

[00:35:04.653 – 00:35:14.794] During that time, one of the significant things about that, that segment of our history, up until… [00:35:14.794 – 00:35:20.794] Well, I came in in fifty-seven, and, uh, certainly when I came in, it was still very much the case. [00:35:20.794 – 00:35:24.714] Up, up, up s-say sixties or somewhere like that. [00:35:24.714 – 00:35:27.374] I don't– if there's like– to promise you about dates, I don't have a clue. [00:35:27.374 – 00:35:34.234] But, but we were basically chara-characterized by extens-extensive, intensive action. [00:35:34.234 – 00:35:40.454] We were not a real thoughtful society that got off into retreats and studies and all this kind of stuff.

[00:35:40.454 – 00:35:41.774] There wasn't time. [00:35:41.774 – 00:35:44.754] We were busy doing the work. [00:35:44.754 – 00:35:54.854] And so you can imagine what folks who suddenly flooded with eight thousand requests for help, you imagine what their primary purpose was, can't [00:35:54.854 – 00:35:54.934] you? [00:35:54.934 – 00:35:59.194] And one was to just sort of try to keep up, for God's sakes. [00:35:59.194 – 00:36:05.234] Uh, even when I came along, you know, today I, I get a twelve-step call once in a while. [00:36:05.234 – 00:36:09.474] I've had three at the same time, different people. [00:36:09.474 – 00:36:19.593] And I guarantee you that's, uh, fun when you get three brand-new alcoholics in a car, and I put the one with thirty minutes sober looking after the one with fifteen

[00:36:19.593 – 00:36:19.973] minutes. [00:36:19.973 – 00:36:24.054] I guarantee you it is fun. [00:36:24.054 – 00:36:29.654] And so what characterized that was intensive activity. [00:36:29.654 – 00:36:33.194] We did a lot of work one-on-one with twelve-step calls. [00:36:33.194 – 00:36:43.634] And, and, and the thing that was– the, the powerful principle that came out of that, that really governed how we functioned as a society for a long time, [00:36:43.634 – 00:36:53.694] was that every one of us, you could pretty safely say every one of us, came in as a direct result of another alcoholic reaching out a hand

[00:36:53.694 – 00:37:00.274] and saying, "Hang on and come on in with us." Very personal. [00:37:00.274 – 00:37:05.554] Very– Everybody had that kind of linkage to the heart of the fellowship. [00:37:05.554 – 00:37:07.934] And, and so that really formed. [00:37:07.934 – 00:37:17.934] What happens when somebody reaches in and s- and pulls you out of whatever you're in, what's, what's formed there is an, a loyalty [00:37:17.934 – 00:37:19.614] second to none. [00:37:19.614 – 00:37:20.394] Second to none. [00:37:20.394 – 00:37:30.774] And that's why with no hesitation, you know, somebody call you from the most, most ratty part of town, and you go without question

[00:37:30.774 – 00:37:33.194] and say, "Let's get it on." You know. [00:37:33.194 – 00:37:40.134] And so that was a very important principle, a very important ethic that developed in Alcoholics Anonymous at that time. [00:37:40.134 – 00:37:42.594] It drove the service apparatus, eh? [00:37:42.594 – 00:37:49.994] It drove the service apparatus because that, that feeling of intense personal level connection was there. [00:37:49.994 – 00:37:56.094] I'm emphasizing that a little bit because you'll find that to be quite changed today, I think. [00:37:56.094 – 00:38:05.914] And, uh, it is one of the, the things that we, we ought to consider when we're thinking about what shapes us and what drives us and, and, and what we ought to be concerned about today.

[00:38:05.914 – 00:38:09.622] Uh, same old guy, Tom, an alcoholic. [00:38:09.622 – 00:38:13.682] And, uh, we're shifting gears on you, I guess. [00:38:13.682 – 00:38:15.741] Hope you can tell where we're headed with this. [00:38:15.741 – 00:38:25.762] And what we, we did, uh, the, uh, t-the old, old, old days of the emergence of Alcoholics Anonymous and sort of how things shaped [00:38:25.762 – 00:38:26.982] into, into being. [00:38:26.982 – 00:38:35.282] And then Sandy brought us into an excellent presentation about how the message forms and how we start having real substance in what we're doing. [00:38:35.282 – 00:38:41.602] And, uh, now it's, it's grunt and groaning time now, is we, we gotta g- we gotta go to work.

[00:38:41.602 – 00:38:51.702] And, uh, what I wanna do is pick up on, uh, essentially where we left off in history and shift a little bit into, uh, [00:38:51.702 – 00:39:00.282] sort of the changing character of, of how we do our work and, uh, and how we generate some of our service stuff. [00:39:00.282 – 00:39:10.402] The, uh, just share a couple of little things with you about that, uh, about those, those changing times in the, uh, [00:39:10.402 – 00:39:15.822] uh, uh, in the, in the, in the history part of it, and then then we'll, we'll get into it.

[00:39:15.822 – 00:39:25.842] So I w– you know, I was a guy that, you know, some of you may know, I, I originally started AA in a correctional facility, and I was blessed to be in a, [00:39:25.842 – 00:39:27.722] in a facility with an excellent group. [00:39:27.722 – 00:39:38.102] And so when I hit the street, I was well prepared to, uh, engage in the program, and that's a good thing because when the transition's fairly easy, if you're prepared [00:39:38.102 – 00:39:40.642] to make the transition, and you got some place to go.

[00:39:40.642 – 00:39:51.582] And I was well prepared, but when I got to, uh, my, uh, what was to be my hometown and visited what was to be my home group, I [00:39:51.582 – 00:39:54.702] swear to God, that was the worst AA meeting I've ever been to in my life. [00:39:54.702 – 00:40:03.682] And I, I, I, I told some of the guys, I said, "Man, if we had a meeting like this in the joint, somebody would've got hurt." We, we just didn't do stuff like that.

[00:40:03.682 – 00:40:06.362] And it was really kind of, kind of a sad deal. [00:40:06.362 – 00:40:14.702] And, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's funny how you come to crossroads, and you gotta, gotta make a, m-gotta make a turn. [00:40:14.702 – 00:40:16.981] Sometimes you make the good one, sometimes you make the bad one. [00:40:16.981 – 00:40:22.702] And when I hit that, I was used to well-ordered, really productive groups and a high level of action. [00:40:22.702 – 00:40:29.122] And all at once, I'm in a wasteland where there was, uh, little sign of life.

[00:40:29.122 – 00:40:39.362] And, uh, my first thought would be like, uh, like the next– it's only about twenty-five miles to this, to this, to our biggest city, Charlotte. [00:40:39.362 – 00:40:41.722] And I knew there was a little action over there. [00:40:41.722 – 00:40:50.942] And my first thought was, "Geez, I'm not gonna put up with this junk." And, uh, I'm gonna go to Charlotte and get in on this, the quick slick stuff. [00:40:50.942 – 00:40:54.882] But a troubling thought occurred to me. [00:40:54.882 – 00:41:00.842] I was the second oldest guy in that town in AA.

[00:41:00.842 – 00:41:06.922] And the only other one was an old guy, wonderful fella, but he was just sorta over the hill. [00:41:06.922 – 00:41:12.182] And so disturbing thought was: When do you become responsible? [00:41:12.182 – 00:41:15.062] When do you take some responsibility? [00:41:15.062 – 00:41:16.402] When do you take a stand? [00:41:16.402 – 00:41:23.982] And that was kind of a troubling thought because it's hard to take on that kind of thinking and then fly in the face of it. [00:41:23.982 – 00:41:29.442] So I decided to stay and, and, uh, probably one of the wisest decisions ever made.

[00:41:29.442 – 00:41:32.002] But it was just by default. [00:41:32.002 – 00:41:34.002] It wasn't just eagerness to tackle that. [00:41:34.002 – 00:41:35.722] It was just default. [00:41:35.722 – 00:41:39.062] That I wasn't ready to face the guilt of walking off. [00:41:39.062 – 00:41:42.142] The guys in the joint heard about it. [00:41:42.142 – 00:41:43.562] They'd have hurt me, I guess. [00:41:43.562 – 00:41:51.662] So, uh, it was a good deal, and I had the, the great experience of, of sort, sort of what I was alluding to with some of those early folk in the program. [00:41:51.662 – 00:42:00.182] And, uh, got– really got introduced to service in a, in a real rough and ready, raw kind of a style.

[00:42:00.182 – 00:42:03.402] And that ain't all bad, you know, 'cause it's a good learning. [00:42:03.402 – 00:42:05.362] So if you gotta– it's like learning to swim. [00:42:05.362 – 00:42:07.742] Best way to do it is get in water over your head. [00:42:07.742 – 00:42:11.222] And you'll– amazing how quickly you can learn to swim. [00:42:11.222 – 00:42:16.762] Or else you won't be talking about it, but, and so that's what I was. [00:42:16.762 – 00:42:22.782] I was in water over my head, and as I, I was, uh– I had a lot of spirit, a lot of enthusiasm.

[00:42:22.782 – 00:42:30.282] I was about like a young goat turned loose, and I'm just running in all directions, doing anything that even looked like it was to, uh, to be helpful. [00:42:30.282 – 00:42:40.342] And, uh, I didn't have any real game plan for service or anything like that, but I understood what a good group was, and I understood [00:42:40.342 – 00:42:41.251] what some of the ingredients- [00:42:41.508 – 00:42:44.008] were of making a group, so we set about starting to do that. [00:42:44.008 – 00:42:49.788] And, uh, when you're the only guy standing in a town, it's an interesting deal.

[00:42:49.788 – 00:42:58.268] I got introduced to 12-step work in no uncertain terms, and, and I could regale you with tons of stories. [00:42:58.268 – 00:43:04.368] Uh, there's nothing more enjoyable in hindsight than a 12-step call. [00:43:04.368 – 00:43:09.988] They're not tremendously enjoyable if somebody's throwing up on you at 3:00 in the morning. [00:43:09.988 – 00:43:12.708] The, the thrill is gone from that in a hurry. [00:43:12.708 – 00:43:21.248] And so, so I was getting really up to my ears in, in that kind of stuff, and doing a lot of that kind of work, a lot of organizational stuff.

[00:43:21.248 – 00:43:26.708] And, uh, I t- I tell you about the kind of thing that sort of shaped the ethic a little bit. [00:43:26.708 – 00:43:34.568] I, uh, along in that period, uh, two things I wanna just sorta, sorta approach at the same time. [00:43:34.568 – 00:43:44.668] One was the emergence of resources beyond the obvious, uh, you know, of just a, a drunk taking somebody and sobering them up [00:43:44.668 – 00:43:45.268] on their own. [00:43:45.268 – 00:43:51.348] Uh, I didn't realize how dangerous that was until I got sober and smartened up a little bit.

[00:43:51.348 – 00:43:55.888] But my God, this, it is just a major miracle that I didn't hurt somebody permanently. [00:43:55.888 – 00:43:57.908] Uh, God, I'd get tired of messing with them. [00:43:57.908 – 00:44:00.047] I, I had a guy that was, uh… [00:44:00.047 – 00:44:02.808] Drink of choice. [00:44:02.808 – 00:44:04.808] I, I never was familiar with that term. [00:44:04.808 – 00:44:06.908] My drink of choice was whatever you had. [00:44:06.908 – 00:44:09.028] It didn't, didn't matter to me. [00:44:09.028 – 00:44:12.088] But this guy was a more refined fellow. [00:44:12.088 – 00:44:13.628] He had a drink of choice. [00:44:13.628 – 00:44:15.668] It was Bay Rum shaving lotion. [00:44:15.668 – 00:44:17.598] Oh. [00:44:17.598 – 00:44:22.448] And I'm telling you, I 12-stepped that guy till I, God knows, felt like he was a Siamese twin.

[00:44:22.448 – 00:44:29.168] And, and finally I just had enough one day, so I decided to give him aversion therapy. [00:44:29.168 – 00:44:35.148] I, I didn't know the term at that time, but I figured I was gonna OD that sucker on s- on shaving lotion. [00:44:35.148 – 00:44:42.288] So when, when I 12-stepped him, I bought a case of Bay Rum, Bay Rum shaving lotion, and took him to my house. [00:44:42.288 – 00:44:44.228] That's where the detox was at that time. [00:44:44.228 – 00:44:48.808] And, uh, put him in a rocking chair in my front yard.

[00:44:48.808 – 00:44:51.687] And I said, "Buddy, I got news for you. [00:44:51.687 – 00:45:02.128] We're gonna drink some Bay Rum." He said, "Yeah." And so I started to, I started feeding that sucker Bay Rum till [00:45:02.128 – 00:45:03.928] he got totally goggle-eyed. [00:45:03.928 – 00:45:13.727] And he started saying, "I don't want any more." I said, "Oh, yeah, you do." "Yeah, you want some more." And I fed that dude Bay Rum till he thought he was on the moon. [00:45:13.727 – 00:45:16.358] And, uh, it worked. [00:45:16.358 – 00:45:19.968] He got sober for a record for him for nine months.

[00:45:19.968 – 00:45:23.718] You know, I didn't realize, you know, what a crude way that was to do it. [00:45:23.718 – 00:45:28.368] But that's, back then, th- m- most people didn't go quite that drastic with it. [00:45:28.368 – 00:45:37.238] But back then, those days that, uh, some people kind of pine for the good old days, people that pine for the good old days either weren't there- … [00:45:37.238 – 00:45:38.668] or have very poor memories. [00:45:38.668 – 00:45:39.368] One or the other. [00:45:39.368 – 00:45:47.448] Uh, but those days of taking folk home like that and sobering them up with, with, uh, whatever you could get: orange juice, cane syrup, God knows.

[00:45:47.448 – 00:45:49.388] I've, I've given them everything potable. [00:45:49.388 – 00:45:51.748] And, and, and just going through that stuff. [00:45:51.748 – 00:45:52.998] I never wanna go through that again. [00:45:52.998 – 00:46:00.648] And so in the middle of all that kind of flurry of stuff, we started to get, you know, other than Akron with Dr. [00:46:00.648 – 00:46:06.908] Bob and that, uh, the notion of getting a drunk in a hospital was wishful thinking at best. [00:46:06.908 – 00:46:08.768] Uh, it didn't exist. [00:46:08.768 – 00:46:15.628] You know, un- if you had enough money to buy the hospital, you might get in under a gastrointestinal disturbance diagnosis.

[00:46:15.628 – 00:46:22.768] But, but for, uh, for taking a drunk there under any conditions was, uh, w- was truly wishful thinking. [00:46:22.768 – 00:46:30.268] And, and so I, I was delighted when we started to see the first cracking of the door. [00:46:30.268 – 00:46:37.188] Uh, things happened, and, and I'll just rush, rush it real quick with this, but, but it didn't happen because I came in. [00:46:37.188 – 00:46:47.268] But about the time that I came in was the time the, the American Medical Association, they never did declare alcoholism an illness, but they kind of acknowledged it as like

[00:46:47.268 – 00:46:47.848] an illness. [00:46:47.848 – 00:46:56.488] And it was enough to crack the door that later led to third-party payments, you know, where it started to get some legal, some legal medical standing. [00:46:56.488 – 00:46:58.368] And so it cracked the door. [00:46:58.368 – 00:46:59.327] It started to open up. [00:46:59.327 – 00:47:05.028] And I remember when we first started to, to be able to get a drunk in the hospital as an alcoholic. [00:47:05.028 – 00:47:14.348] Uh, we literally had to provide sitter service because they didn't want nurses to be bothered with that behavior.

[00:47:14.348 – 00:47:21.348] And so we literally had to do shifts and, and go in and work with an eight-hour shift or whatever, uh, taking care of drunks. [00:47:21.348 – 00:47:24.748] And it, it was interesting sometimes. [00:47:24.748 – 00:47:34.508] And, uh- I went in one day and I reported for duty, and the head of officer, uh, my guy was on the door that was watching the guy, and he said, "He's okay. [00:47:34.508 – 00:47:41.228] Seems to be all right, and, uh, won't have any trouble with him." So I go in the room, no drunk.

[00:47:41.228 – 00:47:44.168] And I said, "Where is this fool?" You know. [00:47:44.168 – 00:47:47.758] So I'm looking in the bed, under the bed- … [00:47:47.758 – 00:47:49.388] behind the curtains, bathroom. [00:47:49.388 – 00:47:52.368] The window was only about that wide, so he couldn't have got out of there. [00:47:52.368 – 00:47:56.088] And, uh, and I'm just totally bewildered. [00:47:56.088 – 00:47:58.688] And then I heard a little clatter. [00:47:58.688 – 00:48:00.648] You know the old standup wall locker? [00:48:00.648 – 00:48:02.708] I heard a little clatter. [00:48:02.708 – 00:48:05.148] And so I went over to open the door. [00:48:05.148 – 00:48:07.468] Well, the fellow was just mildly confused.

[00:48:07.468 – 00:48:11.087] He, he, he thought he was standing at a urinal. [00:48:11.087 – 00:48:22.268] And, uh and when I opened that door, he looked at me with just real ig- indignation, and he said, "I beg your pardon." I [00:48:22.268 – 00:48:24.228] said, "Pardon my ass. [00:48:24.228 – 00:48:29.108] Get out of there." So sometimes it was fun. [00:48:29.108 – 00:48:33.588] But I was ever grateful to be able to start opening the door. [00:48:33.588 – 00:48:35.508] And, and I truly mean that. [00:48:35.508 – 00:48:42.508] I've had the, the, the dubious, uh, uh, kind of a experience I don't ever wanna do again.

[00:48:42.508 – 00:48:44.808] I had a drunk die in my arms one night. [00:48:44.808 – 00:48:45.418] Oh. [00:48:45.418 – 00:48:47.000] Excuse me. [00:48:47.000 – 00:48:49.460] And I had nowhere to take him, nowhere to take him. [00:48:49.460 – 00:48:53.380] And, and so I, I, I remember those days with no fondness. [00:48:53.380 – 00:48:59.920] Uh, only medical authority we had in our county was one good old fella, a doc. [00:48:59.920 – 00:49:02.440] And this is literally the way it happened. [00:49:02.440 – 00:49:04.160] It was almost like going to a bootlegger. [00:49:04.160 – 00:49:07.060] You take him to the building the doc was in. [00:49:07.060 – 00:49:08.820] You had to take him to the back door.

[00:49:08.820 – 00:49:09.480] Mm-hmm. [00:49:09.480 – 00:49:10.880] You didn't go in where the patients were. [00:49:10.880 – 00:49:18.400] Go to the back door, and he would come out in a little old break room type of place and give him a shot in the rump, and that was it. [00:49:18.400 – 00:49:19.640] That was it. [00:49:19.640 – 00:49:23.000] That was the sum total of medical care available. [00:49:23.000 – 00:49:33.020] So when you, when you're on that firing, firing line, and you, you have those kinds of things going on, things like starting to open the [00:49:33.020 – 00:49:40.140] door for, uh, for, for, uh, for resources to deal with folks is, is truly something valuable.

[00:49:40.140 – 00:49:45.420] So while I never went through any of that, I valued the emergence of that sort of thing. [00:49:45.420 – 00:49:52.820] And, uh, then over time, uh, we, we started to, to, to, to grow a lit-a little more. [00:49:52.820 – 00:49:58.380] And, um, there started to be some facilities that would grow up. [00:49:58.380 – 00:50:05.340] Sandy and I were talking about the, uh, the old things we did as a sort of a stopgap measure when there was nothing available. [00:50:05.340 – 00:50:08.480] They, they called them tapering off places.

[00:50:08.480 – 00:50:13.260] And we had one that was named Wilmith, W-I-L-M-I-T-H. [00:50:13.260 – 00:50:18.600] And if you think about the, the amalgamation of that name, you could tell where it came from. [00:50:18.600 – 00:50:23.080] Uh, it was Wilson and Smith, which boiled down to Wilmith. [00:50:23.080 – 00:50:27.840] And that was put together by a bunch of A folks who just thought there needed to be a place. [00:50:27.840 – 00:50:32.460] And for seventy-five bucks, you could take somebody in there and get them tapered off. [00:50:32.460 – 00:50:34.780] Now, I never was good at tapering off.

[00:50:34.780 – 00:50:36.460] I always got drunk when I tapered off. [00:50:36.460 – 00:50:38.480] But, but they were good at it. [00:50:38.480 – 00:50:43.020] If nothing else, they taught drunks how to tell time. [00:50:43.020 – 00:50:47.320] And I don't need to elaborate. [00:50:47.320 – 00:50:50.010] But it's amazing. [00:50:50.010 – 00:50:53.440] You could take them in there three days later, come pick them up and all, and they're just fine. [00:50:53.440 – 00:50:55.120] So, man, I loved that kind of stuff. [00:50:55.120 – 00:50:56.379] So it started to emerge. [00:50:56.379 – 00:51:06.860] And then, uh, a thing, and what I want to put together with this is like we were talking about this real head of steam we had going with a lot of this hands-on

[00:51:06.860 – 00:51:14.120] personal work that was going on, very much a part of the legacy and the life stream of, of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:51:14.120 – 00:51:18.520] And so now what I'm talking about are things that start to move that in a different direction. [00:51:18.520 – 00:51:21.060] It starts to shift that thing around. [00:51:21.060 – 00:51:31.100] And, and so what happened when, when, um, not so much those local, uh, facilities like I'm talking about, but as more formal treatment started to emerge, [00:51:31.100 – 00:51:33.320] slowly but surely. [00:51:33.320 – 00:51:34.400] Uh, there were some around.

[00:51:34.400 – 00:51:37.100] I didn't know anything about it, but they had the thing going in Minnesota. [00:51:37.100 – 00:51:39.460] And, um, I didn't know about that. [00:51:39.460 – 00:51:40.240] I'd never heard of it. [00:51:40.240 – 00:51:42.840] I, I read some of the material, but I never, never heard of the place. [00:51:42.840 – 00:51:48.940] And, uh, treatment as we know it just was nonexistent in the minds of most people. [00:51:48.940 – 00:51:52.620] And, and so that started to come into to being. [00:51:52.620 – 00:51:55.620] There, there started to be some, uh, treatment facilities open up. [00:51:55.620 – 00:52:01.260] And I was one who applauded that very much because I thought it was just…

[00:52:01.260 – 00:52:02.500] It was great. [00:52:02.500 – 00:52:12.640] If you've been through those n-nothing available days, you can see why it means a great deal to have a place where, [00:52:12.640 – 00:52:15.180] where the illness can be treated with dignity. [00:52:15.180 – 00:52:21.740] Meant a lot to me that we weren't doing it in back alleys anymore, that we were moving out in Main Street. [00:52:21.740 – 00:52:24.420] And so I, I really valued that. [00:52:24.420 – 00:52:29.700] And so it, it, it– treatment started to occur, started to, to, to build up a little bit.

[00:52:29.700 – 00:52:38.720] And then something happened that it became politically useful to be supportive of anything that had to do with alcohol or drugs. [00:52:38.720 – 00:52:45.620] And, um, I wouldn't have believed it, but, but I'm– what I'm describing now was in the late sixties and early seventies. [00:52:45.620 – 00:52:56.020] And in that period into the early eighties, we, we had an absolute explosion of resources for dealing with folks with alcoholism [00:52:56.020 – 00:52:57.320] or, or, or, or addiction. [00:52:57.320 – 00:52:59.540] And, and so it just grew up. [00:52:59.540 – 00:53:01.980] It was like the, the McDonald's fran-franchise.

[00:53:01.980 – 00:53:03.419] They were just going everywhere. [00:53:03.419 – 00:53:07.799] And, uh, I never thought I would ever see this happen in my lifetime. [00:53:07.799 – 00:53:17.840] But we went through a presidential one time– campaign one time, and one of the platforms on both candidates' tickets was appropriate treatment for alcohol and drugs. [00:53:17.840 – 00:53:20.000] I never thought I'd ever see that. [00:53:20.000 – 00:53:21.760] So it became a very sexy- [00:53:21.842 – 00:53:22.622] Anything to do. [00:53:22.622 – 00:53:32.702] I never thought I'd see the day, but I did see the day, when treatment was available almost on demand anywhere

[00:53:32.702 – 00:53:33.402] in this country. [00:53:33.402 – 00:53:35.362] I never thought I'd see that. [00:53:35.362 – 00:53:39.302] Well, some important stuff happened that, uh… [00:53:39.302 – 00:53:46.502] By the way, Sandy and I was comparing notes a little bit about, we, we both went over to Iceland and, uh, had a great experience over there. [00:53:46.502 – 00:53:55.002] But we s- I s- uh, one thing click, clicked with me was the, um, that those things can get out of hand grossly. [00:53:55.002 – 00:54:05.302] And in the, in Iceland, they have socialized medicine, meaning everybody in the country is entitled to treatment on demand at no cost and

[00:54:05.302 – 00:54:06.142] with no limits. [00:54:06.142 – 00:54:16.422] I talked with a guy one day, in utter fascination, I talked with a guy who had just finished his 101st treatment [00:54:16.422 – 00:54:17.102] cycle. [00:54:17.102 – 00:54:27.362] As I was talking to some of the guys about it, and I said, "Fellas, have y'all ever heard of a term called enabling?" And he said, "What do you mean?" [00:54:27.362 – 00:54:32.181] I said, "At some point, you know, the jig's up. [00:54:32.181 – 00:54:39.002] I mean, some point you gotta quit this foolishness and get on down to business." But anyway, you know, like anything, it can get out of hand.

[00:54:39.002 – 00:54:40.862] And, and, but so we saw this coming. [00:54:40.862 – 00:54:47.942] And, and what I want to share with you about it, and, and you believe me, uh, I have no criticism, no… [00:54:47.942 – 00:54:50.072] I'm not angry at anybody. [00:54:50.072 – 00:54:51.562] I don't throw bricks at folks. [00:54:51.562 – 00:55:01.602] I think most of what happened that started to change some of the fundamental functions of Alcoholics Anonymous, uh, [00:55:01.602 – 00:55:03.842] it, it was, it was our affair. [00:55:03.842 – 00:55:06.782] You know, most of those wounds were self-imposed. [00:55:06.782 – 00:55:08.222] Self-imposed. [00:55:08.222 – 00:55:15.382] And so when I c- look at conditions, I'm not talking about anything that an outside entity did to us.

[00:55:15.382 – 00:55:22.922] I'm talking about what happened within our fellowship as a result of the emergence of these things. [00:55:22.922 – 00:55:31.462] And, um, yeah, I think what happened, uh, uh, this is just one guy's kind of somewhat objective, uh, observation about it. [00:55:31.462 – 00:55:39.242] But I think what happened, we went through that kind of a honeymoon period where people felt pretty good about having these things available. [00:55:39.242 – 00:55:46.682] But then there started to set in a little nagging discontent about it among us. [00:55:46.682 – 00:55:54.782] W- we started to get into this notion that, well, what are these folks doing?

[00:55:54.782 – 00:55:58.422] They're doing the same thing we're doing and charging for it. [00:55:58.422 – 00:55:59.622] It's a rip-off. [00:55:59.622 – 00:56:05.922] Or they're doing our work, or on and on and on. [00:56:05.922 – 00:56:16.962] It started to get into a kind of a negative attitude about the emergence of something that on the one hand I'm deeply grateful for, but [00:56:16.962 – 00:56:20.742] on the other hand, there's concerns about what's it doing, see? [00:56:20.742 – 00:56:30.922] And, and I hon- in all candor, I, I, I th- my c- my con- my, my belief is that we failed to adjust, we, Alcoholics Anonymous,

[00:56:30.922 – 00:56:34.622] failed to adjust to a new reality that emerged. [00:56:34.622 – 00:56:41.522] And that's simply that alcoholics are no longer coming in this door, they're coming in that door. [00:56:41.522 – 00:56:46.882] But I think we kept looking at that door and grumbling about the door they came in. [00:56:46.882 – 00:56:56.882] And so rather than adapting and modifying what we do, uh, realizing that somebody coming out of a treatment center is not [00:56:56.882 – 00:57:03.242] cured, what they've done is gotten to a level that they might be able to engage in recovery.

[00:57:03.242 – 00:57:13.382] But a person coming out of a treatment center is as new as any 12-step call I've ever had because they don't teach how to live in recovery in treatment [00:57:13.382 – 00:57:13.622] centers. [00:57:13.622 – 00:57:14.682] That's not what they're for. [00:57:14.682 – 00:57:20.042] Now what they do is basically deal with the barriers that interfere with engaging in treatment. [00:57:20.042 – 00:57:22.542] And so it's a, it's a great thing. [00:57:22.542 – 00:57:32.572] But, but what we did, rather than adapting and modifying the way we do 12-step work, instead of being thankful that I don't get puked on anymore, that I don't have

[00:57:32.572 – 00:57:42.602] to fight some, some guy with a knife coming after me, that those days are gone, that I'm getting a new person now, and they come in and they smell good, and they talk good, and they know a lot of [00:57:42.602 – 00:57:45.862] language, and, and but didn't deal with that very well. [00:57:45.862 – 00:57:56.102] We started to get some groups that not only were apathetic with it, but some that were openly hostile toward the deal and [00:57:56.102 – 00:57:56.962] overwhelmed by it. [00:57:56.962 – 00:57:58.062] I, I'll give you an example.

[00:57:58.062 – 00:58:02.022] We had, in my little town, they, they, they, they set up a treatment center. [00:58:02.022 – 00:58:07.962] And, uh, they ne- and they met with us and negotiated the relationship. [00:58:07.962 – 00:58:12.202] They did a wonderful job of establishing a good working rela- They did better than we did. [00:58:12.202 – 00:58:15.742] But we engaged in a good working process that exists to this day. [00:58:15.742 – 00:58:25.822] But part of the fallout when that treatment center came into town, there was a, a, a, a guy that, that had started a new group, and he called

[00:58:25.822 – 00:58:27.182] it the Newcomers group. [00:58:27.182 – 00:58:36.122] Well, newcomers is, is, is like manna from heaven for a treatment center, 'cause my God, man, that's a prescription filled. [00:58:36.122 – 00:58:46.242] And so these guys were meeting, and one night when he called me, the guy said, "We got a problem." And I said, "What is it?" He said, "Man, these treatment center folks [00:58:46.242 – 00:58:53.782] have just beat us to death." And I said, "Tell me what happened." So what it was, one night they were starting a meeting, and a bus pulled up.

[00:58:53.782 – 00:58:59.382] And, and 40-something people got out of the bus and came in. [00:58:59.382 – 00:59:02.362] Now, you'd think everybody'd be saying hallelujah. [00:59:02.362 – 00:59:05.482] But there were five members in that group. [00:59:05.482 – 00:59:07.802] And this guy said… [00:59:07.802 – 00:59:10.322] I told him, I said, "Man alive, isn't that great? [00:59:10.322 – 00:59:20.002] You got that many newcomers." He said, "No, it's not great." I said, "How come?" He said, "We can't even afford the coffee." So it's very real kinds of here-and-now problems. [00:59:20.002 – 00:59:22.642] And this, this was a good, good bunch of guys.

[00:59:22.642 – 00:59:32.682] But it was that kind of thing that started to emerge, and it just got into sometimes just kind of uncomfortable relationships, sometimes tense relationships. [00:59:32.682 – 00:59:37.782] We've had some groups that have formally requested treatment centers to not bring people to their meeting. [00:59:37.782 – 00:59:40.046] That's recent history. [00:59:40.046 – 00:59:41.026] That's not old history. [00:59:41.026 – 00:59:42.146] That's recent history. [00:59:42.146 – 00:59:44.906] You know, so that we've done a, a one eighty. [00:59:44.906 – 00:59:46.166] That… [00:59:46.166 – 00:59:51.846] So it introduced a kind of a, a, a kind of a reaction in it that… [00:59:51.846 – 01:00:00.466] And, and the one thing that I don't think we can afford in AA is having anger as a s– as a, as a core of what, what drives us.

[01:00:00.466 – 01:00:01.646] That we can't afford. [01:00:01.646 – 01:00:05.806] Somebody said if we ever go down, it'll be from the inside and not the outside. [01:00:05.806 – 01:00:09.666] It's not what happens to us, it's how we react to what happens to us. [01:00:09.666 – 01:00:11.866] And so that had some real impact. [01:00:11.866 – 01:00:16.826] It also had some impact on how we do our s- our services. [01:00:16.826 – 01:00:22.686] Uh, where we get into a- what I call active outreach type of things. [01:00:22.686 – 01:00:28.026] You know, where we, we reach out to, uh, to, to, to carry the message to alcoholics.

[01:00:28.026 – 01:00:29.586] Uh, let me break that down just a little bit more. [01:00:29.586 – 01:00:39.586] Our fifth tradition says, "Each group has but one primary purpose," and that's to carry its message to the alcoholic [01:00:39.586 – 01:00:40.446] who still suffers. [01:00:40.446 – 01:00:42.726] That's an active term. [01:00:42.726 – 01:00:44.026] That's not a passive term. [01:00:44.026 – 01:00:48.706] It doesn't say that our primary purpose is to welcome people who come in our door. [01:00:48.706 – 01:00:54.246] It says, "We carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers," wherever they might be. [01:00:54.246 – 01:00:58.126] And so we started to, to, to turn back.

[01:00:58.126 – 01:00:59.246] Nobody planned this. [01:00:59.246 – 01:01:00.706] It just happened instinctually. [01:01:00.706 – 01:01:05.126] But we started to turn back on our aggressive work with alcoholics. [01:01:05.126 – 01:01:07.786] There's no need to. [01:01:07.786 – 01:01:12.386] It's like advertising when you got your stores so full you can't get anybody in. [01:01:12.386 – 01:01:20.486] And so there was no real need, no real motivation to really reach out and do aggressive work. [01:01:20.486 – 01:01:30.506] Uh, that's a, it's a strange kind of a thing that, that in those days when we were characterized by intensive work with each other in, in

[01:01:30.506 – 01:01:40.606] those early days, pre-'60, one of the things you heard, and you'll still hear it from me once in a while because I mean it, but one of the things you heard routinely [01:01:40.606 – 01:01:50.666] was, "I want a newcomer to come in because I need a newcomer more than he needs me." And when you get into some attitude about where folks are coming [01:01:50.666 – 01:01:52.366] from, you lose that spirit. [01:01:52.366 – 01:01:54.006] You lose that sense. [01:01:54.006 – 01:01:59.326] You lose that reality that you genuinely need that new person more than he needs you.

[01:01:59.326 – 01:02:04.686] And, and so that started to erode some things that were, were extremely important. [01:02:04.686 – 01:02:13.926] CPC and PI, you know, cooperation with the professional community, almost drifted into obscurity over the next generation. [01:02:13.926 – 01:02:16.606] Almost drifted into obscurity. [01:02:16.606 – 01:02:19.146] I'll, I'll give you an example of what you run into. [01:02:19.146 – 01:02:27.766] That—I was out in Colorado in a conference, and we– it was doing a session on service, and I was just sitting in. [01:02:27.766 – 01:02:32.626] And the guy was going on, he talking about CPC, uh, CPC and, or something.

[01:02:32.626 – 01:02:33.866] But I raised a question. [01:02:33.866 – 01:02:35.386] I, I just posed a question. [01:02:35.386 – 01:02:37.926] I was really trying to just trigger the d-discussion a little bit. [01:02:37.926 – 01:02:42.826] But I, I asked a question, and, and there was a lady in the audience who got interested in my question. [01:02:42.826 – 01:02:50.786] And she said, "Can I ask you a question?" I said, "Yeah, go ahead." She said, she said, "I hate to ask this 'cause I'm embarrassed. [01:02:50.786 – 01:03:00.826] I've been in AA twenty-one years, but what is CPC?" I told her, I said, "I really appreciate you asking that

[01:03:00.826 – 01:03:01.286] question. [01:03:01.286 – 01:03:08.426] And I'll tell you something that I believe you're, you're asking it on probably seventy-five percent of the p- the population of AA. [01:03:08.426 – 01:03:18.786] You're asking it on their behalf." Because we've let these things drift into such disuse that they're just sort of meaningless acronyms that, that have very little utility [01:03:18.786 – 01:03:22.526] or, or vitality in many, many areas of the country. [01:03:22.526 – 01:03:28.366] And, and so you– when I go around, I always talk about these kind of things with people just to get a feel.

[01:03:28.366 – 01:03:38.486] And in so many places, there has never been, in the history of AA in that town, a public information activity or a CPC activity. [01:03:38.486 – 01:03:40.386] You know, never in the history of the group. [01:03:40.386 – 01:03:50.406] And so what, what's happening, i-if, if you can see from this, is sort of a, a deterioration of that s- that, that kind of real message that [01:03:50.406 – 01:03:51.606] Sandy was talking about. [01:03:51.606 – 01:04:02.086] We, we start getting into a little bit more of an objective, uh, posture in this thing rather than a real first person that, that I need you because

[01:04:02.216 – 01:04:03.776] Because it'll help me, you know? [01:04:03.776 – 01:04:05.776] And so we started to drift away from that a little bit. [01:04:05.776 – 01:04:08.316] And, and those things started to die away. [01:04:08.316 – 01:04:16.676] The, um, the, uh, troubling thing is, is that that shuts us off from the world. [01:04:16.676 – 01:04:22.696] And I, I don't mean to be overly harsh with this, but I don't mean to, to pussyfoot around either. [01:04:22.696 – 01:04:33.136] My impression is that part of the windfall of the, of the direction we've gone is [01:04:33.196 – 01:04:42.026] that we probably have the lowest level of respect as a fellowship among the professional community that I can ever remember us having.

[01:04:42.026 – 01:04:46.916] It's not unusual at all for people to say, "Yeah, I know about AA. [01:04:46.916 – 01:04:47.716] It doesn't work. [01:04:47.716 – 01:04:58.516] I know about AA." We had a guy go to a doc talking about a referral process, and the doc thanked him for coming, but he said, "We've got a better resource." [01:04:58.516 – 01:05:01.056] And so we've really lost something in this thing. [01:05:01.056 – 01:05:11.056] If you contrast that to what we were talking about of the critical role of Sister Ignatia and Silkworth, you know, alcoholism isn't any simpler today than it was

[01:05:11.056 – 01:05:11.336] then. [01:05:11.336 – 01:05:20.216] And our det– our, our dependence on good, solid working relationship with the professional community are not lessened. [01:05:20.216 – 01:05:21.756] It may be even greater. [01:05:21.756 – 01:05:26.476] So there've been a lot of things that have changed in relation to that. [01:05:26.476 – 01:05:34.856] Take that court thing I mentioned, for example, where, where Roland met– went in and, and met with, um, the– got the, the judge to give him Ebby. [01:05:34.856 – 01:05:41.296] And, uh, you had to be a brave man to request Ebby, but he did.

[01:05:41.296 – 01:05:48.856] But, but if you think about that, think about that scene. [01:05:48.856 – 01:05:51.656] You know, here's a guy saying, "Don't give Ebby a chance. [01:05:51.656 – 01:05:57.156] Give, give, give me a chance with him." Where we're petitioning the court. [01:05:57.156 – 01:06:05.816] Now, today, tell me how an alcoholic in a court setting, if he's influenced into A, tell me where the influence comes from. [01:06:05.816 – 01:06:08.116] The chairman. [01:06:08.116 – 01:06:08.296] Hmm? [01:06:08.296 – 01:06:10.166] The chairman. [01:06:10.166 – 01:06:11.156] Yeah, it's not us. [01:06:11.156 – 01:06:14.856] Not– by and large, you got a couple of notable exceptions. [01:06:14.856 – 01:06:18.076] But, but what we've done is a one-eighty.

[01:06:18.076 – 01:06:19.935] We've done a one-eighty. [01:06:19.935 – 01:06:26.236] And today, most of the initiatives from court are by the court. [01:06:26.236 – 01:06:36.296] And rather than having a viable relationship in that, that thing of trying to link the guy in trouble to a resource, you know, we're almost [01:06:36.296 – 01:06:36.776] out of it. [01:06:36.776 – 01:06:46.836] And so what we wind up with is all over the country, most of the places, we see guys coming into the meeting with a little slip of paper and [01:06:46.836 – 01:06:57.316] saying, "Somebody's told me I've got to be here, and will you sign this?" And it's, uh, in all honesty, I think that's an awfully cheap way to treat an alcoholic.

[01:06:57.316 – 01:07:00.496] This illness is too severe for that. [01:07:00.496 – 01:07:01.536] It's too severe. [01:07:01.536 – 01:07:05.616] And, and, you know, what happens, you, you– we lose something important. [01:07:05.616 – 01:07:06.836] I, I'll give you an example of that. [01:07:06.836 – 01:07:07.896] Uh, I was… [01:07:07.896 – 01:07:08.936] If I start to name a town. [01:07:08.936 – 01:07:11.976] I won't name the town, but I was in a, in a Midwestern city a while back. [01:07:11.976 – 01:07:20.476] Dropped in on a meeting, and, uh, it was a midday meeting, and I just happened to be– have some time, and I went in and sat in.

[01:07:20.476 – 01:07:24.536] It, it was a ni-nice enough meeting, and it, it… [01:07:24.536 – 01:07:27.576] And I was kind of like the psychiatrist at the burlesque show. [01:07:27.576 – 01:07:29.736] I'm in the meeting. [01:07:29.736 – 01:07:37.056] But I had this thing on my mind about people getting drummed into AA, and it was bothersome to me. [01:07:37.056 – 01:07:38.336] It was bothersome. [01:07:38.336 – 01:07:41.456] I later figured out why, but it was bothersome. [01:07:41.456 – 01:07:46.396] So I went in there, and I, and I had that on my mind, so I– and they had a routine set up.

[01:07:46.396 – 01:07:49.636] It was, it was re– it wasn't only ritualized, it was organized. [01:07:49.636 – 01:07:55.776] The secretary sat on a little raised dais out in the middle of the floor, had a, a desk, had an inbox. [01:07:55.776 – 01:08:02.556] And so the folks who came in who had that brand on them came over and dropped it in the box. [01:08:02.556 – 01:08:07.316] Then they sit down, and while the meeting's going on, the secretary wrote whatever she wrote on it. [01:08:07.316 – 01:08:11.256] And then at the end of the meeting, they'd pick it up and go out.

[01:08:11.256 – 01:08:12.876] Well, I picked out one guy. [01:08:12.876 – 01:08:15.816] And I, I, I watched him. [01:08:15.816 – 01:08:18.416] I watched every move that he made. [01:08:18.416 – 01:08:21.576] But I wanted to evaluate, what is this process? [01:08:21.576 – 01:08:23.516] And I watched that guy. [01:08:23.516 – 01:08:25.996] He came in, very, very courteous fellow. [01:08:25.996 – 01:08:29.216] He just walked in, put the paper in the box, went back there, sat down. [01:08:29.216 – 01:08:34.076] We did the meeting on step five, got up, and he got out, picked up his sheet of paper, walked out. [01:08:34.076 – 01:08:41.596] He didn't interact with one human, and not one human interacted with him.

[01:08:41.596 – 01:08:47.036] Is that the way we want to introduce somebody to Alcoholics Anonymous? [01:08:47.036 – 01:08:49.196] I don't think so. [01:08:49.196 – 01:08:50.816] I don't think so. [01:08:50.816 – 01:08:54.056] I don't think that's the way you cut through a killer illness. [01:08:54.056 – 01:09:01.056] And I think that an alcoholic deserves better than that just because of the nature of the illness. [01:09:01.056 – 01:09:03.496] We're not about punishing these folks. [01:09:03.496 – 01:09:09.256] We're about trying to capture people who are hitting the wall and giving them a hand out. [01:09:09.256 – 01:09:15.336] And I, I won't pursue that too far, but I, I really was troubled by that.

[01:09:15.336 – 01:09:18.716] And, and, um, one day I was flying somewhere. [01:09:18.716 – 01:09:19.896] I do my best thinking. [01:09:19.896 – 01:09:21.556] I guess the air gets thin or something. [01:09:21.556 – 01:09:23.556] I do my best thinking on planes. [01:09:23.556 – 01:09:26.536] And no phones, you know, I just… [01:09:26.536 – 01:09:27.136] Right away. [01:09:27.136 – 01:09:29.916] And so I started writing up what bothers me about that. [01:09:29.916 – 01:09:32.676] As I wrote down the advantages, disadvantages. [01:09:32.676 – 01:09:34.456] You know, why would somebody think that's a good idea? [01:09:34.456 – 01:09:38.916] I wrote down ten things that somebody would think was a good idea. [01:09:38.916 – 01:09:44.636] All ten of them had value for the criminal justice person, the probation officer, whoever, or judge.

[01:09:44.636 – 01:09:46.556] All, all ten of them had value. [01:09:46.556 – 01:09:54.136] I put a question mark beside three of them, because if you really stretch your imagination, it might have some value for a drunk. [01:09:54.136 – 01:09:55.616] But I didn't really think so. [01:09:55.616 – 01:10:01.856] And on the other side, I think I listed something like twenty-six things that were wrong with that. [01:10:01.856 – 01:10:08.296] Twenty-six things that just made me sort of, sort of rebel at that whole process. [01:10:08.296 – 01:10:12.808] Now, I never was somebody who would take it out on the guy with the piece of paper.

[01:10:12.808 – 01:10:15.888] He's already been s- been s- pushed around enough. [01:10:15.888 – 01:10:17.448] He doesn't need to get pushed around here. [01:10:17.448 – 01:10:19.488] But I tell you what I would do. [01:10:19.488 – 01:10:20.528] I would wimp out. [01:10:20.528 – 01:10:24.808] You know, if somebody come to me and say, "Will you sign this paper?" I'd say, "No, I said he'd take care of this. [01:10:24.808 – 01:10:34.548] He's a, he's a s- paper-signing fool." Now, that's a wimpy way to deal with it, but it just grated on me to do it. [01:10:34.548 – 01:10:35.688] And, and so I'd chicken out.

[01:10:35.688 – 01:10:39.168] And so I wrote down what it was, Bob, and it was just a whole bunch of things. [01:10:39.168 – 01:10:41.287] When he walks in the door, he's branded when he walks in. [01:10:41.287 – 01:10:44.547] He's an inferior member when he walks in. [01:10:44.547 – 01:10:50.048] He's in a, in a, in a m- a demeaning position in relation to the rest of the group. [01:10:50.048 – 01:10:55.888] He feels like a second-class citizen, and a lot of time we treat him like a second-class citizen. [01:10:55.888 – 01:10:58.688] You ask somebody to do that, and if somebody sign the paper, don't even look at the guy.

[01:10:58.688 – 01:11:01.348] You know, just, just some kind of a rote thing. [01:11:01.348 – 01:11:07.848] And, uh, a- and I wrote down one I had never thought about, which explained why I didn't like to sign them. [01:11:07.848 – 01:11:12.907] When I do that, when I sign that piece of paper, two things happen. [01:11:12.907 – 01:11:19.628] I establish affiliation with the criminal justice agency on behalf of my group. [01:11:19.628 – 01:11:25.148] I establish affiliation because I'm engaging in a process that's got nothing to do with AA. [01:11:25.148 – 01:11:33.948] The other thing is it changes the basic nature of my relationship to another alcoholic.

[01:11:33.948 – 01:11:42.928] I'm not gonna be a validator or an inspector or a quality control guy or a verifier. [01:11:42.928 – 01:11:53.208] That's not my function because when I do that, it changes that– What we're talking about here this morning, the power of that message is, is two people [01:11:53.208 – 01:11:58.028] sharing together, not one in a superior position, the other in an inferior position. [01:11:58.028 – 01:12:00.287] That just bastardizes the process. [01:12:00.287 – 01:12:02.688] And, uh, so… [01:12:02.688 – 01:12:05.948] By the way, we tackled that in our town. [01:12:05.948 – 01:12:12.828] I, I was meeting with a committee one night, and I said, "Why don't we tackle that paper thing?" And an old boy said, "Oh, God, Tom, you'll never get that thing stopped.

[01:12:12.828 – 01:12:23.128] They do it all over the world." I said, "Well, let's don't worry about the world." I said, "Let's just-" I said, "Let's just take our little place here." And, and so we went to work and, and taking [01:12:23.128 – 01:12:30.008] just that crudely written stuff that I read, handwritten, we went to meet with the director of the probation agency, laid out the thing. [01:12:30.008 – 01:12:32.688] He, he acted like he was threatened. [01:12:32.688 – 01:12:36.848] If we go, any, any agency person who was to get a citizen's company is gonna feel that way.

[01:12:36.848 – 01:12:37.888] So he's tensed up. [01:12:37.888 – 01:12:43.928] And then he read that one I was just talking about, about the change in the nature, and he said, "Well, I'll be damned. [01:12:43.928 – 01:12:46.708] I never thought of that." I said, "Me either. [01:12:46.708 – 01:12:49.328] Me either." And so we changed that. [01:12:49.328 – 01:12:53.608] And from that day to this day, there hadn't been a piece of paper in our group. [01:12:53.608 – 01:12:56.788] And so one man can make a difference, eh? [01:12:56.788 – 01:12:58.868] One man can make a difference. [01:12:58.868 – 01:13:03.488] And it's just a matter of getting focused on what needs to be done.

[01:13:03.488 – 01:13:05.728] Is that the kind of way we want to deal with alcoholic? [01:13:05.728 – 01:13:15.728] You know, my– I'll, I'll, I'll kind of just sort of h-head for the close down with, with, with this, that it, it impacts this whole [01:13:15.728 – 01:13:17.348] business of how we've shifted. [01:13:17.348 – 01:13:19.948] It impacts all of our vital services. [01:13:19.948 – 01:13:27.827] And, and so what you see is, uh, about a twenty-five-year lapse where we got rather passive about these things. [01:13:27.827 – 01:13:29.268] We got very passive about them. [01:13:29.268 – 01:13:36.108] And, and we, we can, we can make a, a difference in, in, in that, in that kind of thing, uh, no matter what it is.

[01:13:36.108 – 01:13:40.808] I'd, I'd, I'd– Let me just tease your fancy just a little bit with, with this. [01:13:40.808 – 01:13:45.788] You know, if you think about the work that needs to be done, that's just one example. [01:13:45.788 – 01:13:49.308] That's a very gross, obvious example of somebody being mandated in. [01:13:49.308 – 01:13:55.148] It's the same whether it's a guy out of court or a guy out of a medical profession. [01:13:55.148 – 01:13:58.748] You wanna see somebody that's mandated and monitored to death? [01:13:58.748 – 01:13:59.818] Mm-hmm. [01:13:59.818 – 01:14:03.448] Get an impaired doc and see what you got to deal with.

[01:14:03.448 – 01:14:04.318] Oh, yeah. [01:14:04.318 – 01:14:04.318] The, uh… [01:14:04.318 – 01:14:04.998] Or an attorney. [01:14:04.998 – 01:14:09.188] Uh, you know, one buddy of mine was once an attorney, and he called me. [01:14:09.188 – 01:14:18.028] He said, "I don't know what to do with this guy." And he said, "They've got this sucker beat to the ground." And I said, "Tell me about it." So he told me all the stuff the guy had to do in the span of a week. [01:14:18.028 – 01:14:20.968] He couldn't do that if he did, if he did it full time.

[01:14:20.968 – 01:14:24.328] And so the lawyer come to him and said, "I can't practice law. [01:14:24.328 – 01:14:31.828] I'm going to psychiatric counseling, marriage counseling, aftercare, AA." He got no time to practice law. [01:14:31.828 – 01:14:33.588] And so it gets ludicrous. [01:14:33.588 – 01:14:39.528] And, um, the thing, the, the thing I, I think, like, just think of any place. [01:14:39.528 – 01:14:42.238] Driver's license restoration. [01:14:42.989 – 01:14:44.829] You want to see some of these alcoholics alive? [01:14:44.829 – 01:14:45.709] Take a look at that. [01:14:45.709 – 01:14:47.209] Take a look at that. [01:14:47.209 – 01:14:57.209] At the process that goes in to, to putting the person through the paces, uh, it's just, it's just, just strange what,

[01:14:57.209 – 01:14:57.689] what we do. [01:14:57.689 – 01:15:02.189] Uh, so you name a profession a-and it's not peculiar to any. [01:15:02.189 – 01:15:03.189] You'll find it in all of them. [01:15:03.189 – 01:15:04.769] The, um… [01:15:04.769 – 01:15:14.788] There are things we can do about that, and that, I wanna just sorta, just not just give you doom and gloom, but maybe get you to think [01:15:14.788 – 01:15:17.929] a little bit about something beyond just what's right in front of you. [01:15:17.929 – 01:15:25.629] Because those folks who are impaired– I, I just, I'll tell you one other story about that, and then I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll wrap on the thing.

[01:15:25.629 – 01:15:27.589] I've got one of these– I had one of these docs. [01:15:27.589 – 01:15:35.709] I, I sponsored several of those fellas, and one of them I just got went into medical school after he was sober. [01:15:35.709 – 01:15:36.709] Now, listen to this. [01:15:36.709 – 01:15:41.749] He went in to finish his, his medical th-training, and now he's a practicing physician. [01:15:41.749 – 01:15:51.809] When he started practicing, the medical board made him go pee in a bottle, and he's 10 years [01:15:51.809 – 01:15:54.569] sober, 10 years sober. [01:15:54.569 – 01:15:59.129] Now, I'm sure there's some logic in there, but it totally escapes me.

[01:15:59.129 – 01:16:08.829] What doesn't escape me is the insult, the absolute slap in the face for 10 years of a legacy of shot. [01:16:08.829 – 01:16:10.909] It's just stupid is, is what it is. [01:16:10.909 – 01:16:14.969] And the, um– Now, I don't have hard feelings about it. [01:16:14.969 – 01:16:16.549] It's just, but it's just pretty dumb. [01:16:16.549 – 01:16:21.748] This guy, uh, I took on this one fella. [01:16:21.748 – 01:16:23.049] He's a delightful man. [01:16:23.049 – 01:16:24.529] He's a great CPC guy. [01:16:24.529 – 01:16:27.949] Now, I took on this guy, and, uh, he just came to town. [01:16:27.949 – 01:16:32.129] He was sober two years after fashion, and, and he hadn't, hadn't had anything.

[01:16:32.129 – 01:16:38.509] He was an anesthesiologist, and, uh, he tended to get himself confused with the patient an awful lot. [01:16:38.509 – 01:16:47.309] So they captured him, and, uh, and, uh, and he got defrocked and, and all that stuff. [01:16:47.309 – 01:16:52.409] And so when I got him, he was under that general care of the medical board. [01:16:52.409 – 01:16:55.569] And that guy was monitored big time. [01:16:55.569 – 01:16:59.929] And one night, I mean, I knew we were gonna have to deal with this thing. [01:16:59.929 – 01:17:01.029] One day we were meeting. [01:17:01.029 – 01:17:04.449] We always meet at the Holiday Inn, and, and, and, uh, it'd be breakfast.

[01:17:04.449 – 01:17:05.109] That's where we'd meet. [01:17:05.109 – 01:17:13.749] And one day he was telling me about– And I said, "Well, big guy, you got a big day coming up, your two-year anniversary." And he said, "Oh, my God. [01:17:13.749 – 01:17:16.229] I forgot about that. [01:17:16.229 – 01:17:26.389] I can't be there." And I said, "Oh, why is that?" And he said, "Well, you know that I'm under– I'm owned by the medical society, [01:17:26.389 – 01:17:27.069] medical board. [01:17:27.069 – 01:17:33.049] They're having their annual whatever they do, and I gotta be there. [01:17:33.049 – 01:17:43.149] Because if I'm not there, they'll know I'm drunk, and I'll be in trouble." And I said, "Well, I understand conflicts." I said, "But that certainly tells me

[01:17:43.149 – 01:17:49.568] what the agenda will be for our next meeting." And he said, "What's that?" He was always in a state of awe. [01:17:49.568 – 01:17:59.629] You know, he- He said, "What's that?" And I said, "It'll be about priorities." And, uh- He sa- He said, "What do you mean?" I said, [01:17:59.629 – 01:18:09.709] "Well, when the things that come to you as a result of your activities in AA become more important than what you do in [01:18:09.709 – 01:18:16.209] AA to make them happen, your priorities are shot." And he understood that.

[01:18:16.209 – 01:18:18.509] A-and that old boy just turned gray. [01:18:18.509 – 01:18:20.209] I mean, you could just see the blood drain. [01:18:20.209 – 01:18:20.848] He turned gray. [01:18:20.848 – 01:18:30.849] And he said, "I swear, Tom, I don't know what I'll do, but I'll be there." I said, "Okay, that's good." He came, he came in that night, and, [01:18:30.849 – 01:18:34.449] uh, he– Uh, this was a, the dress do that he had to go to. [01:18:34.449 – 01:18:39.769] So he was dressed in a tux with a zebra tie and a zebra cummerbund. [01:18:39.769 – 01:18:47.489] So I took him around to everybody in the room and introduced him as the offspring of the mating of a penguin and a zebra.

[01:18:47.489 – 01:18:53.168] We had a great time. [01:18:53.168 – 01:18:54.459] We had a great time. [01:18:54.459 – 01:18:58.389] And, uh, and then he went on up there and put up with the stuffed shirts. [01:18:58.389 – 01:19:00.629] You know, it's– But see, see what I'm talking about? [01:19:00.629 – 01:19:05.549] If, if, if in dealing with those things, those are well-intended people. [01:19:05.549 – 01:19:15.589] They're well– They're not trying to ruin the guy, but what happens, and part of it is just because of our failure to reach out and [01:19:15.589 – 01:19:16.989] engage in the process. [01:19:16.989 – 01:19:22.969] What happens is that they move into territory they ought not to be by default.

[01:19:22.969 – 01:19:26.109] They're making up for our absence. [01:19:26.109 – 01:19:36.289] And my belief is that when the, the helping agency, I don't care who it is, starts having influence [01:19:36.289 – 01:19:39.109] inside Alcoholics Anonymous, it's out of whack. [01:19:39.109 – 01:19:46.089] And if we get unduly involved and start trying to influence the outside agency, we're out of whack. [01:19:46.089 – 01:19:52.889] What it's called for, CPC means cooperation with the professional community. [01:19:52.889 – 01:19:55.449] Cooperate means work together. [01:19:55.449 – 01:19:56.509] Work together. [01:19:56.509 – 01:19:58.829] Because what they're doing is legitimate. [01:19:58.829 – 01:20:00.209] What we're doing is legitimate. [01:20:00.209 – 01:20:03.369] And all we need to do is close that gap.

[01:20:03.369 – 01:20:04.729] Close that gap. [01:20:04.729 – 01:20:09.109] So it's not something that you logically think about very often, I don't think. [01:20:09.109 – 01:20:14.449] But you think of how many docs get into anguish, or attorneys, or pilots, or whoever. [01:20:14.449 – 01:20:25.009] And while we can't handle their business, most people would have little objection to sitting down at a table and saying, "How can we work together more effectively [01:20:25.009 – 01:20:28.609] for the good of the client?" Most people would be quite open to that. [01:20:28.609 – 01:20:33.829] They wouldn't be open to us going in there telling them what to do, you know, or how to do it and all that kind of stuff.

[01:20:33.829 – 01:20:34.509] They'd run us out. [01:20:34.509 – 01:20:38.809] But if we approach that in a helpful manner, we can do a lot of good work. [01:20:38.809 – 01:20:39.689] A lot of good work. [01:20:39.689 – 01:20:44.349] I'll give you one last example in, in, uh, of how easy it is. [01:20:44.349 – 01:20:48.985] I, I've got interested in, in, in… [01:20:48.985 – 01:20:56.625] I mean, well, I've, I've had a lot of business with lawyers and, uh, the one former another. [01:20:56.625 – 01:20:58.585] But, but I, I got interested. [01:20:58.585 – 01:21:05.445] I sponsored a bunch of them, and they were, they were, they were really, uh, uh, uh, peo- folks intrigue me.

[01:21:05.445 – 01:21:08.045] And, uh, they had a system. [01:21:08.045 – 01:21:09.325] It's, it's got a name. [01:21:09.325 – 01:21:10.385] It's a very general name. [01:21:10.385 – 01:21:12.885] It's called PALS, P-A-L-S. [01:21:12.885 – 01:21:16.725] And I'm, I'm not sure what it means, but it's a nice term. [01:21:16.725 – 01:21:22.385] But it's a, it's a sort of a gathering point for, for, for captured lawyers. [01:21:22.385 – 01:21:25.194] You know, the ones that are in trouble, gonna lose their license, all that stuff. [01:21:25.194 – 01:21:35.335] And so I, I started work- working with some of those guys, and, and what I saw was that there's enormous difficulties in trying to go through that transition we're talking about, where they, they,

[01:21:35.335 – 01:21:38.625] they're doing their thing, and then we try to get them integrated into AA. [01:21:38.625 – 01:21:40.805] It's a, a really difficult thing. [01:21:40.805 – 01:21:48.185] And so what happens in that unknown gap between us and them, you get a gray zone. [01:21:48.185 – 01:21:50.925] You have a gray zone of ill-defined kind of stuff. [01:21:50.925 – 01:21:53.425] And the, and the, and the lawyers go nuts in that. [01:21:53.425 – 01:21:56.165] What they do is, is try to… [01:21:56.165 – 01:22:02.985] They try to use a recovered lawyer as a sponsor/monitor. [01:22:02.985 – 01:22:04.485] Mm. [01:22:04.485 – 01:22:09.965] I would submit to you that those are absolutely mutually exclusive terms.

[01:22:09.965 – 01:22:11.785] You cannot be both. [01:22:11.785 – 01:22:17.165] And, uh, matter of fact, that same doc I was just talking about, he– switch back to the doc for a second. [01:22:17.165 – 01:22:21.325] He one night– He's doing well, and he's ten years now. [01:22:21.325 – 01:22:23.625] And, and he's doing– He was doing well. [01:22:23.625 – 01:22:27.605] And, and one night we were meeting, and he said, "I've gotta, I gotta go. [01:22:27.605 – 01:22:29.945] I've gotta, uh, to go see a fella." Called his name. [01:22:29.945 – 01:22:31.705] It was another doc he was sponsoring. [01:22:31.705 – 01:22:41.205] I said, "Oh, what you gotta go for?" And he said, "I gotta get a sample." And I said, "No, you don't." And he said, "Oh, yeah, I do.

[01:22:41.205 – 01:22:41.375] Yeah. [01:22:41.375 – 01:22:42.565] Yeah, he's got to get it in. [01:22:42.565 – 01:22:52.645] The man there on his case." And I said, "No, you don't." And I told him, I said, "You cannot monitor and sponsor." And he said, "Well, what am I gonna do?" I said, [01:22:52.645 – 01:22:56.165] "Well, you, you or him, one, call the medical board, preferably you. [01:22:56.165 – 01:23:06.425] Call the medical board and tell them you cannot do that sample." And he said, "Well, why will I tell him I can't do it?" I said, "Tell him because your sponsor in AA

[01:23:06.425 – 01:23:16.745] said you can't do that." He said, he said, "Okay." But, I mean, that's damage [01:23:16.745 – 01:23:17.625] control, you know? [01:23:17.625 – 01:23:27.665] And, uh, the, uh, a, a thing I was gonna, gonna say with the, uh, the, the, the lawyers that, uh, I, I've, I've– Just going out, I started doing a [01:23:27.665 – 01:23:33.165] quarterly session in law school just telling them about the relationship a little bit and got– developed a relationship. [01:23:33.165 – 01:23:36.125] So I spoke at their convention in, in North Carolina. [01:23:36.125 – 01:23:37.385] It was an interesting deal.

[01:23:37.385 – 01:23:42.765] I had dinner with the chief justice of the Supreme Court and two justices and a couple other judges. [01:23:42.765 – 01:23:43.905] I'm sitting there. [01:23:43.905 – 01:23:47.885] A guy like me, I'm sitting there with all this, uh, all this stuff. [01:23:47.885 – 01:23:54.105] And so we finished dinner, and I got up to speak and told them what an honor it was to be there and to have dinner with the chief justice and all that. [01:23:54.105 – 01:24:02.645] And I said, "A few years ago, if I'd have had dinner with these guys, it would have been for my last meal." They didn't know.

[01:24:02.645 – 01:24:04.565] And then I told my story, and they knew that. [01:24:04.565 – 01:24:06.805] Uh, so it's a strange thing. [01:24:06.805 – 01:24:10.465] Those people really want to do something. [01:24:10.465 – 01:24:11.745] They want to do something. [01:24:11.745 – 01:24:12.965] They know that they're in trouble. [01:24:12.965 – 01:24:17.385] I talked with the director of that, of that program, and we're setting this in motion now. [01:24:17.385 – 01:24:27.585] I talked with the director of that program and, and, uh, told him, I said, "Are you ever bothered with people calling you about being lost in this maze?" He said, "My God, Tom, my day

[01:24:27.585 – 01:24:37.885] is c– is consumed with calls of people frustrated and, and, and lost in it." And, and, and I t– I told him a little bit about what I had in mind, that I thought we could improve that relationship. [01:24:37.885 – 01:24:47.925] And he said, "What would you do?" I said, "Well, I'd put a bunch of y'all on one side of the table and a bunch of us on the other, not too big a bunch, and then we'd just talk about how we work together." And he said, "The only

[01:24:47.925 – 01:24:53.955] thing I'd ask is be sure I'm at that table." And so people will y– will, will, will yield to this kind of thing. [01:24:53.955 – 01:24:59.705] But I guess what I'm suggesting to you, and, and I'm no– I'm nowhere near done, but I'm gonna quit anyway. [01:24:59.705 – 01:25:09.785] What I'm suggesting to you is that when you start thinking about what to do with that imagination that gets fired, what I'm suggesting to you, there's [01:25:09.785 – 01:25:12.665] a lot to do with that imagination that's fired.

[01:25:12.665 – 01:25:20.105] I'll guarantee you, somebody in this group today is uniquely suited to go and launch a project like this. [01:25:20.105 – 01:25:21.305] Doesn't take much. [01:25:21.305 – 01:25:22.725] All it takes is- [01:25:22.949 – 01:25:29.169] Some thought, do the homework, and be prepared to make a sensible kind of, of, of, of business arrangement with people. [01:25:29.169 – 01:25:39.248] My, my belief is that everywhere that an alcoholic hits a wall, and I don't [01:25:39.248 – 01:25:49.449] care where that is, everywhere he hits a wall, we ought to, us, us, we ought to be sure that whoever

[01:25:49.449 – 01:25:59.469] is the contact person is equipped to be able to tell the person, "Hey, there's help right over here, and here's how you can get it." Okay? [01:25:59.469 – 01:26:02.409] And so, you think about that, and every… [01:26:02.409 – 01:26:04.369] Alcoholics hit the wall all over the place. [01:26:04.369 – 01:26:07.809] At minister's office, social worker's offices, healthcare, you name it. [01:26:07.809 – 01:26:09.329] But everywhere. [01:26:09.329 – 01:26:12.889] And if that's gonna happen, it'll be because we do that. [01:26:12.889 – 01:26:17.149] They don't teach that in, in, in social work school or universities. [01:26:17.149 – 01:26:18.129] They just don't teach it.

[01:26:18.129 – 01:26:19.629] That's our deal. [01:26:19.629 – 01:26:29.929] But if you really wanna, wanna be of service, if you really wanna make a difference and get that thing humming with professional community, just simple little things like that can have monumental effects [01:26:29.929 – 01:26:30.209] on it. [01:26:30.209 – 01:26:34.469] I think it's a great, a great, uh, a great question to ponder a little bit. [01:26:34.469 – 01:26:36.339] And, and let me just offer this, Julia. [01:26:36.339 – 01:26:43.549] I think one of the mistakes we often make is that we develop a program and then try to fit it in somewhere.

[01:26:43.549 – 01:26:44.549] Yeah. [01:26:44.549 – 01:26:47.349] Which I think is a hundred and eighty degrees off, you know? [01:26:47.349 – 01:26:53.269] And the best way to organize is to organize a way around a way to solve a problem. [01:26:53.269 – 01:26:54.169] You know? [01:26:54.169 – 01:26:57.769] Or-organize that the committee exists to get a job done. [01:26:57.769 – 01:27:07.769] And so, if you– It's easier to tackle a project, and then all you do is say, "How do we need to organize to get this done?" And so, it'll take care [01:27:07.769 – 01:27:10.789] of shaping the, the, the change– shaping the, the, the deal.

[01:27:10.789 – 01:27:20.869] A-And I say, I say that for one other reason, that in doing service committees, it's– what I find is that [01:27:20.869 – 01:27:29.649] there is at least as much, if not more, value in the preparation to do the project than there is in the project itself. [01:27:29.649 – 01:27:38.189] There's something really, really importantly effective about this thing of getting the message ready to go. [01:27:38.189 – 01:27:41.669] And what happens is it really energizes the committee. [01:27:41.669 – 01:27:42.809] So two things. [01:27:42.809 – 01:27:44.989] One would be to focus on the problem you wanna solve.

[01:27:44.989 – 01:27:47.809] Organize and get it done, and then you got a committee there. [01:27:47.809 – 01:27:49.009] Okay. [01:27:49.009 – 01:27:49.959] Yeah. [01:27:49.959 – 01:27:50.509] Thank you. [01:27:50.509 – 01:27:51.689] Yes. [01:27:51.689 – 01:27:52.529] Thank you. [01:27:52.529 – 01:27:54.949] I'm Kitty. [01:27:54.949 – 01:27:56.219] I'm visiting from Oklahoma. [01:27:56.219 – 01:27:56.619] I'm an alcoholic. [01:27:56.619 – 01:27:58.149] Hi, Kitty. [01:27:58.149 – 01:27:59.418] Welcome. [01:27:59.418 – 01:27:59.429] Welcome. [01:27:59.429 – 01:28:00.649] doing for this workshop. [01:28:00.649 – 01:28:02.369] Uh, Sandy and Tom, thanks so much. [01:28:02.369 – 01:28:03.889] I'm really learning a lot. [01:28:03.889 – 01:28:04.729] My head is spinning. [01:28:04.729 – 01:28:06.469] So hopefully I get this question out of it. [01:28:06.469 – 01:28:06.769] Um. [01:28:06.769 – 01:28:09.729] I love working with newcomers. [01:28:09.729 – 01:28:10.929] It's just such a treat. [01:28:10.929 – 01:28:14.209] And, um, I'm ve– I learned something today.

[01:28:14.209 – 01:28:17.089] One of the many things is the business of… [01:28:17.089 – 01:28:20.909] That I am the business treatment, and I don't know what to do. [01:28:20.909 – 01:28:23.429] I am having a very hard time carrying the message. [01:28:23.429 – 01:28:30.509] The desperation isn't there because somebody's fixing the meals, and they already are working a program. [01:28:30.509 – 01:28:32.638] So they don't really depend upon AA. [01:28:32.638 – 01:28:35.649] Uh, the sponsorship relationship is the same. [01:28:35.649 – 01:28:41.489] And I don't know how to do this group, um, had a treatment facility move in my neighborhood.

[01:28:41.489 – 01:28:47.169] I thought, "Yippee," you know, "They're right in my backyard." And, uh, finally, it's just not working well for me. [01:28:47.169 – 01:28:50.359] And, um, there's a, a lot of guidelines. [01:28:50.359 – 01:28:56.289] And I need to fit into their program in order to carry the AA message. [01:28:56.289 – 01:29:01.329] And I just feel like I'm complying with their rules in order for me to carry the message. [01:29:01.329 – 01:29:11.469] And so, um, but one thing I've learned today is that it's my responsibility that no matter how the alcoholic ends in the meeting– ends up in the meeting, that I, I, I just need

[01:29:11.469 – 01:29:13.009] to, to do my best. [01:29:13.009 – 01:29:14.549] So I'll throw that out there. [01:29:14.549 – 01:29:21.049] I don't, I don't know if it's a question, but, um, I– we were talking about raising the bottom that another alcoholic hits. [01:29:21.049 – 01:29:26.029] Um, but I, I, I don't know what the physical link is, but maybe you can give me a suggestion. [01:29:26.029 – 01:29:27.129] Please. [01:29:27.129 – 01:29:27.849] Glad to be here. [01:29:27.849 – 01:29:28.829] Thanks. [01:29:28.829 – 01:29:30.709] Yep. [01:29:30.709 – 01:29:40.749] With my hearing deficit, I may not have caught it accurately, but I think you were talking about how to carry the message effectively in an environment that may not be, uh, supportive of

[01:29:40.749 – 01:29:43.209] what you're doing, that may not congruent with what you're doing. [01:29:43.209 – 01:29:45.289] In, uh… [01:29:45.289 – 01:29:55.289] I, I would just offer this, that, uh, I, I mentioned earlier that, uh, about designing an effort to fit the [01:29:55.289 – 01:29:57.349] environment where it's, it's, where it's going. [01:29:57.349 – 01:30:07.429] When– What I mean by that is a lot of times when we're working with an agency or a facility, we get trapped into the notion that [01:30:07.429 – 01:30:14.009] we have no influence on what they're doing and, and are, are sort of helpless to deal with that thing.

[01:30:14.009 – 01:30:17.729] There's, uh, in fact, Julia has a copy of it. [01:30:17.729 – 01:30:21.569] There's, there's a little four-step process that we've worked out. [01:30:21.569 – 01:30:25.709] Now, here you're talking about carrying a message personally. [01:30:25.709 – 01:30:34.989] But if you're talk– if you wanna broaden that and talk about how you get a program to work effectively in a place, and I think the same principle would be there. [01:30:34.989 – 01:30:39.809] And well, let me take a simple one first with a personal thing. [01:30:39.809 – 01:30:49.989] When I go into a facility, all I wanna know is who's in there, uh, and, and, and but more particularly, I wanna know what

[01:30:49.989 – 01:30:51.089] my function is. [01:30:51.089 – 01:30:59.989] And my function when I go in there is to be a good example of Alcoholics Anonymous and carry an effective message to whoever's listening. [01:30:59.989 – 01:31:06.569] And, and so I don't get caught up in a lot of details about that, you know, unless there's some bizarre thing out of way. [01:31:06.569 – 01:31:12.489] So, so what I– The, the key to me is getting real steady and realistic about what I'm doing. [01:31:12.489 – 01:31:16.509] You know, I wanna go in there and do what's right the best I know how.

[01:31:16.509 – 01:31:20.229] And so I just ask God before I go in to help me do just that. [01:31:20.229 – 01:31:25.409] And when I clear out all the other stuff and get down to the essence of what I'm about, I don't care where it is. [01:31:25.409 – 01:31:27.209] I can, I can carry the message in hell. [01:31:27.209 – 01:31:29.349] I c- c- could be– I get ready to go. [01:31:29.349 – 01:31:33.477] And, and so that, from an individual standpoint, I, I certainly do that. [01:31:33.477 – 01:31:43.537] But I'd, I'd like to just expand that just a bit because a lot of times we, we really do just sort of throw programs

[01:31:43.537 – 01:31:48.437] in without a lot of thought to what they do and where they're gonna do it and how they're gonna do it. [01:31:48.437 – 01:31:52.277] It, it's almost like throwing mud on the wall to see what sticks. [01:31:52.277 – 01:32:02.557] And, uh, so I made up my mind a long time ago, I, I will never develop another program in any facility, I don't care what kind it is, without having [01:32:02.557 – 01:32:06.837] a substantial meeting with the senior manager of that facility. [01:32:06.837 – 01:32:11.017] Not the second banana or the third shift banana.

[01:32:11.017 – 01:32:17.717] It's gonna be the top person in that in, in that facility if we're setting up a new program. [01:32:17.717 – 01:32:20.997] And the purpose of that meeting is to do one thing. [01:32:20.997 – 01:32:31.017] That's to basically learn what that facility is, how they function, how they operate, you know, what kind of latitude you got to do a program in there, if they have an interest [01:32:31.017 – 01:32:31.797] in a program. [01:32:31.797 – 01:32:36.397] One-sided meeting where you learn about the facility. [01:32:36.397 – 01:32:46.776] And then the second step is to meet with the people who are gonna do the service and take a look at the facts of that place and say, "What kind of program

[01:32:46.776 – 01:32:47.797] can we fit in? [01:32:47.797 – 01:32:58.697] What kind of a program we– can we develop to fit in what they've told us?" The third thing is to, to write that up and give it to the senior person, and [01:32:58.697 – 01:33:06.556] they'll, uh, they'll either, uh, uh, endorse it by signing it or if they've got some suggestion for change, which they rarely do. [01:33:06.556 – 01:33:11.037] Uh, and then the fourth one is to put the program in place. [01:33:11.037 – 01:33:15.717] So that, now, that sounds like less than what we're used to.

[01:33:15.717 – 01:33:19.957] Usually what we do is say, "We wanna have a meeting," and say, "Okay, we'll do it Tuesday night. [01:33:19.957 – 01:33:26.197] Let's get it on." And then spend the rest of the time pointing fingers about whose fault it is that it's not working. [01:33:26.197 – 01:33:35.037] And, and so what I'm talking about is a way to– We make a mistake by saying it's their facility. [01:33:35.037 – 01:33:38.996] Take, like, corrections, for example, where we do a lot of this. [01:33:38.996 – 01:33:40.556] Say it's their facility. [01:33:40.556 – 01:33:41.957] Well, it's not their facility.

[01:33:41.957 – 01:33:46.577] It's a public facility, and we're not street corner thugs. [01:33:46.577 – 01:33:50.577] We're responsible citizens trying to offer a service. [01:33:50.577 – 01:33:58.257] And so I think there's a very, very respectful platform that we have to operate from. [01:33:58.257 – 01:34:04.917] So we don't wanna run that facility, but we don't wanna just roll over for it. [01:34:04.917 – 01:34:10.737] And so when we put a plan together, it's what we think will work in that environment. [01:34:10.737 – 01:34:15.317] See, the facility's in charge of running the facility. [01:34:15.317 – 01:34:18.577] We're in charge of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[01:34:18.577 – 01:34:25.757] Our principles, laid out traditions, are just as important as their rules and regulations or laws. [01:34:25.757 – 01:34:35.907] And, and so I th- I think there's a strong negotiating point that we often ignore, and then we pay the price by [01:34:35.907 – 01:34:37.617] confusion and all this kind of stuff. [01:34:37.617 – 01:34:44.437] So as an individual, I wanna get real prepared to go in there and deliver a clear message and get out, as an individual. [01:34:44.437 – 01:34:54.257] But if I'm gonna try to launch a program, then I wanna get into some serious negotiation about setting it up in a way that's got a good chance to succeed.

[01:34:54.257 – 01:34:59.597] Uh, Julia can j-j-just ask questions, has got a copy of that, that little form. [01:34:59.597 – 01:35:00.777] It's a very simple thing. [01:35:00.777 – 01:35:05.657] It's, uh, we call it a four-step process, and it lays it out in pretty clear terms. [01:35:05.657 – 01:35:11.037] Probably gave you a lot more answer than you wanted, but yeah. [01:35:11.037 – 01:35:12.137] Yeah. [01:35:12.137 – 01:35:13.417] My name is Jerry Rockhall. [01:35:13.417 – 01:35:14.376] Hi, Jerry. [01:35:14.376 – 01:35:14.687] Hi, Jerry. [01:35:14.687 – 01:35:15.677] First off, thank you. [01:35:15.677 – 01:35:16.327] Yeah. [01:35:16.327 – 01:35:17.777] This is awesome to see you guys. [01:35:17.777 – 01:35:22.097] Um, one thing I've been– I haven't been around the program a long time, but I do a lot of readings.

[01:35:22.097 – 01:35:28.937] And the one thing I notice a lot, I kind of picked up is that three words are in the program now, which kind of slow it down, is take your time. [01:35:28.937 – 01:35:38.997] 'Cause what I've noticed is that when the people come in the program, and they kind of work the steps fairly quickly, they tend to get it a little faster, and it tends to occupy their brain when they're first there, and it's [01:35:38.997 – 01:35:39.957] running like crazy. [01:35:39.957 – 01:35:44.077] That's the time to get those first two co– well, you know, whatever, the fourth step done.

[01:35:44.077 – 01:35:50.976] Can you just discuss a little bit just the difference between the way it used to be and the way it is now, as far as how you guys used to run them through? [01:35:50.976 – 01:35:54.257] 'Cause the treatment centers and all that, it's all take your time. [01:35:54.257 – 01:36:00.737] And I think what happens, a lot of people did take their time, and as it went farther, that's the way they thought the next guy should do it. [01:36:00.737 – 01:36:03.167] And now, I'll see people two, two-

[01:36:03.363 – 01:36:05.463] Three years before they even think about working with this stuff. [01:36:05.463 – 01:36:05.592] Yeah. [01:36:05.592 – 01:36:06.823] It's been a lot of pain. [01:36:06.823 – 01:36:08.403] Why don't you take one? [01:36:08.403 – 01:36:09.063] You want me to take that? [01:36:09.063 – 01:36:09.113] Yeah. [01:36:09.113 – 01:36:10.003] Okay. [01:36:10.003 – 01:36:10.423] Okay. [01:36:10.423 – 01:36:19.863] Well, I look at, um, how long it took Dr. [01:36:19.863 – 01:36:26.163] Bob to do his, uh, ninth step, and he'd been sober, God, I think around five hours. [01:36:26.163 – 01:36:36.323] And, uh, I think in the, uh, twelve and twelve it said, um, [01:36:36.323 – 01:36:40.962] as far as making amends, we don't wanna rush into it.

[01:36:40.962 – 01:36:44.083] And a lot of people remember that sentence. [01:36:44.083 – 01:36:48.523] You know what the next sentence is? [01:36:48.523 – 01:36:53.023] We might wanna wait several weeks or longer. [01:36:53.023 – 01:36:53.922] Mm-hmm. [01:36:53.922 – 01:36:55.143] Several weeks. [01:36:55.143 – 01:36:56.483] Okay. [01:36:56.483 – 01:37:02.423] So obviously, I believe in moving as long as fast as the person can take. [01:37:02.423 – 01:37:11.443] And my– When I sponsor people, it is basically meeting at my house at the time that I said. [01:37:11.443 – 01:37:13.013] Mm-hmm. [01:37:13.013 – 01:37:23.123] And we meet for an hour to an hour and a half, and we go through one step each week, uh, with the exception of, uh, four, that could take

[01:37:23.123 – 01:37:33.123] a little bit longer, and, uh, eight, and getting nine organized, uh, as to what approach to take [01:37:33.123 – 01:37:34.163] on each amend. [01:37:34.163 – 01:37:39.583] But I would say the whole thing is, uh, fifteen, sixteen weeks. [01:37:39.583 – 01:37:40.613] Mm-hmm. [01:37:40.613 – 01:37:50.803] And, um, then it's maintaining, and it is, um, calling [01:37:50.803 – 01:37:58.763] with a specific situation so that I can show him another way of looking at it. [01:37:58.763 – 01:38:08.783] That is generally all that's required, is that you get stuck and disturbed by something because in your [01:38:08.783 – 01:38:12.183] disturbance it's impossible to see it spiritually.

[01:38:12.183 – 01:38:21.823] And when you see it, and then you just go, "Oh, yeah." And then it just boils down to, I either need to forgive somebody or make an amend. [01:38:21.823 – 01:38:24.783] That's the end. [01:38:24.783 – 01:38:27.803] There's not anything else to do. [01:38:27.803 – 01:38:29.693] You follow what I'm saying? [01:38:29.693 – 01:38:31.883] It just– But that's my pace. [01:38:31.883 – 01:38:33.093] I don't know how fast you go through. [01:38:33.093 – 01:38:36.123] Let me, let me, let me just underline a couple things Sandy said. [01:38:36.123 – 01:38:40.823] I– In fact, I'm starting a, starting a group on, uh, Tuesday coming.

[01:38:40.823 – 01:38:47.723] And, and, and, and we– And this one, by just luck of the draw, is we are anticipating sixteen weeks. [01:38:47.723 – 01:38:52.843] And, and in that, in that one, we're gonna do a very focused thing on steps. [01:38:52.843 – 01:38:55.863] There are a lot of ways to take people through the program. [01:38:55.863 – 01:39:03.123] And because of my travel schedule, uh, uh, I'm never around enough to, to reliably work one-on-one. [01:39:03.123 – 01:39:06.223] And so, I've had to opt for going to group. [01:39:06.223 – 01:39:10.363] And so I've done a, a lot of, of, of long-term big book workshops.

[01:39:10.363 – 01:39:12.963] The big thing is getting folk through the program. [01:39:12.963 – 01:39:14.703] The, um… [01:39:14.703 – 01:39:23.623] If I had the luxury of time, I would no longer do it one-on-one because I think there's an extra value in the group experience. [01:39:23.623 – 01:39:28.883] And I like that group experience because that's where we're gonna spend the rest of our lives, is in groups. [01:39:28.883 – 01:39:35.123] And so I like to get folks, uh, sort of conditioned to the fact that the group is a powerful resource. [01:39:35.123 – 01:39:37.563] You know, so I, I, I lean in that direction.

[01:39:37.563 – 01:39:44.143] And so to me, the time to take a step is when you get to it, uh, you know, no matter what it is. [01:39:44.143 – 01:39:53.943] I'm always a little bit uncomfortable with those kind of production line things that'll often happen at treatment where it's just sort of a scripted kind of a quick deal. [01:39:53.943 – 01:39:57.723] Sometimes it's effective, but often you have to go back and redo it. [01:39:57.723 – 01:40:05.803] Uh, so if, if I'm gonna err, I had rather err on the, on the side of too quickly than too slowly.

[01:40:05.803 – 01:40:06.143] Mm-hmm. [01:40:06.143 – 01:40:10.023] 'Cause you can always go back and steady your work. [01:40:10.023 – 01:40:12.603] And so I like to just move on, and Dr. [01:40:12.603 – 01:40:15.123] Bob's style is, is fine with me. [01:40:15.123 – 01:40:16.183] Yeah. [01:40:16.183 – 01:40:17.143] That's a good question. [01:40:17.143 – 01:40:18.003] Thank you. [01:40:18.003 – 01:40:18.643] Very good question. [01:40:18.643 – 01:40:18.863] Yeah. [01:40:18.863 – 01:40:20.723] I'm Betty Turner. [01:40:20.723 – 01:40:21.883] I'm an alcoholic. [01:40:21.883 – 01:40:22.723] Hi, Betty. [01:40:22.723 – 01:40:23.192] Hi, Betty. [01:40:23.192 – 01:40:27.813] Uh, you know, I suddenly feel very shy about asking this. [01:40:27.813 – 01:40:32.323] But, you know, uh, Sandy, you were talking about the spirituality of the program. [01:40:32.323 – 01:40:42.403] And for many, many years, probably twenty or so, I was always sent to a psychiatrist or a therapist.

[01:40:42.403 – 01:40:43.323] Okay. [01:40:43.323 – 01:40:45.753] At the same time, I'm working the steps. [01:40:45.753 – 01:40:48.343] I was taught how to work the steps, thank God. [01:40:48.343 – 01:40:53.483] I was taught to get on my knees, but I gave my power to this outside enterprise. [01:40:53.483 – 01:40:54.803] So guess what? [01:40:54.803 – 01:41:04.823] Now all the people that I get to sponsor are all on medication and seeing psychiatrists and therapists and all of this, and I [01:41:04.823 – 01:41:09.303] try to emphasize the steps and how it has worked for me. [01:41:09.303 – 01:41:11.363] And I just– I don't know.

[01:41:11.363 – 01:41:14.563] I, I really feel powerless over this. [01:41:14.563 – 01:41:18.283] Maybe God is, uh, you know, He says, "Well, honey, I gave you this. [01:41:18.283 – 01:41:20.523] Now what are you gonna do with it?" I don't know. [01:41:20.523 – 01:41:22.143] So I thought I'd mention this. [01:41:22.143 – 01:41:23.443] I think it's a problem. [01:41:23.443 – 01:41:28.463] I thought I was the only one that was being treated with medication for all those years. [01:41:28.463 – 01:41:35.103] And I was told in two thousand and one that I would have to take the medication for the rest of my life.

[01:41:35.103 – 01:41:36.423] Well, guess what? [01:41:36.423 – 01:41:37.603] I don't have to. [01:41:37.603 – 01:41:40.323] So how do I… [01:41:40.323 – 01:41:41.403] I, I don't know, you know. [01:41:41.403 – 01:41:43.343] And, and then I'm told, "Be careful. [01:41:43.343 – 01:41:49.783] Be careful." So . [01:41:49.783 – 01:41:51.523] Now, is– I wanna get this. [01:41:51.523 – 01:41:53.903] I heard two possible questions. [01:41:53.903 – 01:42:03.903] One was, um, about medication in general, but the one I heard also was [01:42:03.903 – 01:42:13.911] that your initial experience in AA led you to behave this way, and now you've had a deeper insight And so your [01:42:13.911 – 01:42:17.751] advice now is better than it, it was earlier.

[01:42:17.751 – 01:42:18.931] What do you do about that? [01:42:18.931 – 01:42:20.531] Or, or was that a question, too? [01:42:20.531 – 01:42:29.771] Well, I don't know how to carefully carry this message because I'm told you have to not say, "Don't take medication." So I don't. [01:42:29.771 – 01:42:39.891] I say, "Work the steps." But I wanted to hear comments from you because I feel– both of you or one of you or whatever, because I feel [01:42:39.891 – 01:42:42.471] this has been such a powerful workshop. [01:42:42.471 – 01:42:47.331] And, uh, I need guidance on how am I supposed to do this?

[01:42:47.331 – 01:42:55.131] This is a spiritual program, and I finally understand that all I am is an alcoholic, and I have a spiritual malady. [01:42:55.131 – 01:42:58.811] Have I answered my own question or something? [01:42:58.811 – 01:43:08.071] No, I mean, if I got a broken arm, I go get it set. [01:43:08.071 – 01:43:10.190] I don't pray that it sets itself. [01:43:10.190 – 01:43:15.411] You know what I mean? [01:43:15.411 – 01:43:19.051] So there's a role for medicine, and then there's a role for spirituality. [01:43:19.051 – 01:43:29.071] But medication, um, I mean, here we c-can go back, and here's the old days was that in medical

[01:43:29.071 – 01:43:32.811] school, they taught nothing about alcoholism. [01:43:32.811 – 01:43:43.011] And as a result, in the sixties and fifties and maybe seventies, uh, uh, an AA member would go and say to [01:43:43.011 – 01:43:54.971] some doctor that, uh, "Geez, I feel, um, a little anxious when I stand on top of the Empire State Building." And [01:43:54.971 – 01:44:04.711] out would come the Valium or the Librium out of knee-jerk reaction, no understanding of alcoholism, and lots of, uh, AA members were getting burned. [01:44:04.711 – 01:44:13.631] And so individually, members started speaking out, "Stop taking that stuff," which is practicing medicine without a license.

[01:44:13.631 – 01:44:20.091] But it was understandable under the horrible conditions that were going on then. [01:44:20.091 – 01:44:30.231] And then now we're getting where there are lots of doctors who are also recovered alcoholics who are very knowledgeable about medications. [01:44:30.231 – 01:44:37.611] And, um, that is a great source for people to go to. [01:44:37.611 – 01:44:43.911] And, and if one of them says, "This seems to be appropriate," I'm not gonna get in the middle of that. [01:44:43.911 – 01:44:45.791] Okay. [01:44:45.791 – 01:44:45.861] Thank you. [01:44:45.861 – 01:44:46.471] That's where I am. [01:44:46.471 – 01:44:46.771] Yeah. [01:44:46.771 – 01:44:56.871] I'll, I'll mention one thing that the, uh– this, this really is a, a lively issue around the country, and it's one that- -it's got a lot of importance because if you get,

[01:44:56.871 – 01:45:02.791] if you get off base too much either way, you can do some huge damage. [01:45:02.791 – 01:45:10.311] I've seen a number of suicides that were the result of fumbling around with, with trying to manage medication. [01:45:10.311 – 01:45:21.091] And, and, and I tell you, as, as I was a prison administrator for a long time and, and had enormous authority, but one authority I would never exercise [01:45:21.091 – 01:45:28.350] would be to overrule a medical judgment because you, you– that's, that's suicide to do that, for, for me to do that.

[01:45:28.350 – 01:45:31.070] So that's a, that's a very heavy kind of an issue. [01:45:31.070 – 01:45:41.511] Um, we, we do get cases sometimes where, where, where somebody, they'll get, um, heavy-handed to start dictating things that, [01:45:41.511 – 01:45:41.631] you know… [01:45:41.631 – 01:45:50.391] My personal notion is, uh, I, I won't get complicated with, but, but, but I'm hanging around with people in the medical world. [01:45:50.391 – 01:45:54.091] I, I learned a term called the clinical imperative. [01:45:54.091 – 01:46:02.171] And the clinical imperative simply means that you deal with the difficulty that's most disabling first.

[01:46:02.171 – 01:46:03.911] Stands to reason. [01:46:03.911 – 01:46:07.931] If you've got an abscessed tooth, you're not gonna be talking about fixing your hair. [01:46:07.931 – 01:46:10.751] You know, you're gonna get y- the abscessed tooth taken care of. [01:46:10.751 – 01:46:19.431] If you've got a, a, a disturbance where medication's required, sometimes that is the clinical imperative. [01:46:19.431 – 01:46:28.771] And, and if, if a– So what we have to do is yield to the most pressing need, and then when they get stabilized, then it can come to AA. [01:46:28.771 – 01:46:31.110] But it's a very critical thing.

[01:46:31.110 – 01:46:41.151] On a, on the average, you know, just the average walk-in case, m-most people tend to get slapped [01:46:41.151 – 01:46:43.511] with some diagnoses at which- [01:46:43.657 – 01:46:45.037] They may or may not be, for real. [01:46:45.037 – 01:46:49.617] But, but it'll get into medication and it's, and it, it really is a temporary thing. [01:46:49.617 – 01:46:51.577] Uh, I'm, I'm a… [01:46:51.577 – 01:46:53.037] It ought to be a temporary thing. [01:46:53.037 – 01:47:00.797] I, I'm a great believer in a guy from New York, an internist, uh, I love him so much I can't think of his name.

[01:47:00.797 – 01:47:07.356] But, but he's prominent in the f- in dealing with, with people who do alcoholism work. [01:47:07.356 – 01:47:10.537] And what– Stanley Gettlo is his name. [01:47:10.537 – 01:47:11.077] Oh, yeah. [01:47:11.077 – 01:47:12.077] Yeah, Stanley Gettlo. [01:47:12.077 – 01:47:13.897] And, uh, he's a brilliant man. [01:47:13.897 – 01:47:22.927] He says that he would not make a secondary diagnosis on an alcoholic till he'd been sober at least two years- Wow … [01:47:22.927 – 01:47:25.457] because the false effects are that dramatic. [01:47:25.457 – 01:47:26.217] Yeah. [01:47:26.217 – 01:47:28.577] And, and so a lot of times that's what we're dealing with. [01:47:28.577 – 01:47:38.597] And so when I'm work, when I'm working with somebody in person, what I, what I try to do is work with the person to get them to work with their doc to set up a realistic date that they can get

[01:47:38.597 – 01:47:39.157] off the stuff. [01:47:39.157 – 01:47:44.177] And, and beyond that, I think we're in real jeopardy when we start going beyond that kind of thing. [01:47:44.177 – 01:47:47.517] Yeah, so, so it's v-very valid concern. [01:47:47.517 – 01:47:47.777] Mm. [01:47:47.777 – 01:47:49.937] Thank you. [01:47:49.937 – 01:47:52.587] I'm Elizabeth, and I'm an alcoholic. [01:47:52.587 – 01:47:53.337] Hi, Elizabeth. [01:47:53.337 – 01:47:55.797] Thank you both for the workshop, and thank you, Jack. [01:47:55.797 – 01:47:57.937] Um, I have a question for Sandy. [01:47:57.937 – 01:48:00.897] You were talking about how, um… [01:48:00.897 – 01:48:11.057] And I'm sorry if I'm misquoting you, but you believe that God's will for you is to be involved in every aspect of your life, and the details and, and stuff

[01:48:11.057 – 01:48:11.517] like that. [01:48:11.517 – 01:48:17.337] And my quest– I really want to believe that, and I, I can't, you know. [01:48:17.337 – 01:48:27.337] And so I was wondering if you have any, um, suggestions about or maybe your experience in how you came to that or how I would believe that, since I [01:48:27.337 – 01:48:28.737] want to. [01:48:28.737 – 01:48:29.697] Yes. [01:48:29.697 – 01:48:41.097] Uh, because a lot of this is, um, occurred [01:48:41.097 – 01:48:53.346] with me after twenty, twenty-five years of, you know, reading what the book clearly says- … [01:48:53.346 – 01:48:54.397] and where I was. [01:48:54.397 – 01:49:04.437] And so I'm going, "Well, how do I get from here to there?" And I'm gonna tell you, I

[01:49:04.437 – 01:49:05.697] covered it when I was talking. [01:49:05.697 – 01:49:07.297] I decided to. [01:49:07.297 – 01:49:09.277] Okay. [01:49:09.277 – 01:49:09.367] Mm-hmm. [01:49:09.367 – 01:49:11.696] There was never anything more than that. [01:49:11.696 – 01:49:24.617] I just, um, on several different occasions, I just decided to, um, try [01:49:24.617 – 01:49:34.177] a day where I imagined myself communicating with my higher power about everything. [01:49:34.177 – 01:49:36.597] "Uh, what should I be doing now? [01:49:36.597 – 01:49:39.137] What should I…" Now, was I getting answers? [01:49:39.137 – 01:49:43.557] You know, like, uh, a voice or anything like that? [01:49:43.557 – 01:49:46.617] No, I wasn't getting that. [01:49:46.617 – 01:49:56.657] But what I was sure of was that I was closer to my intuitive nature than at any other

[01:49:56.657 – 01:50:06.897] time before that, which is the highest level of thinking that human beings are capable of, is to, you know, we intuitively know. [01:50:06.897 – 01:50:12.857] You remember how you– sometimes you just go, "I don't know why, but I just knew that this… [01:50:12.857 – 01:50:20.197] And I just knew." So then I said, "Well, how could I be there more often?" "How could I be there more often? [01:50:20.197 – 01:50:30.436] I think I'll decide to try and be there more often." Now, the problem is part of me, any time I

[01:50:30.437 – 01:50:33.337] move closer to my higher power, I threaten my ego. [01:50:33.337 – 01:50:35.597] So I'm gonna veto that. [01:50:35.597 – 01:50:43.537] I've never had a decision to make a spiritual progress step without a backlash later on. [01:50:43.537 – 01:50:44.217] "What are you doing that? [01:50:44.217 – 01:50:45.717] Hey, man, that's dangerous in there. [01:50:45.717 – 01:50:48.637] You don't "You go turn it over. [01:50:48.637 – 01:50:49.797] There's no one there to take it. [01:50:49.797 – 01:50:50.477] What are you doing? [01:50:50.477 – 01:50:51.457] You can't be out there. [01:50:51.457 – 01:50:58.977] You better blah, blah, blah." And, uh, and now after all these years, I realize it's always gonna be there.

[01:50:58.977 – 01:52:45.917] I decide that, and then there's gonna be this thing, "Well, you're gonna be in trouble For [01:52:45.917 – 01:52:47.877] recovering nurses. [01:52:47.877 – 01:52:48.997] Um, I don't go to those. [01:52:48.997 – 01:52:52.797] I go to Alcoholics Anonymous because I'm an alcoholic, and I drink with everybody. [01:52:52.797 – 01:52:56.047] I didn't drink with booze. [01:52:56.047 – 01:53:02.357] So I have difficulty dealing with these doctors, lawyers, and nurses who don't drink like I drink. [01:53:02.357 – 01:53:10.397] And, um, I was just wondering what your opinions are on those kind of things because I would like to give back to that community, but not exclusively.

[01:53:10.397 – 01:53:16.377] And at the same time, I don't think me sobering somebody else up the way this supervisor helped me sober up, which worked for me- Hmm … [01:53:16.377 – 01:53:17.517] is my place to do. [01:53:17.517 – 01:53:18.737] I don't know what the right answer is. [01:53:18.737 – 01:53:21.397] If I could get away with that, I would love to. [01:53:21.397 – 01:53:23.447] But I th– I don't know if my ego would get in the way or not. [01:53:23.447 – 01:53:25.537] So anything you can add to that would be appreciated. [01:53:25.537 – 01:53:26.077] Thank you. [01:53:26.077 – 01:53:36.097] It's, uh– One thing about the program, it, it affords us as much privacy as we want, as

[01:53:36.097 – 01:53:37.017] much as we need. [01:53:37.017 – 01:53:43.597] And, and there are some people in sensitive positions who simply have to be anonymous, you know? [01:53:43.597 – 01:53:46.177] It's just, just the nature of the– of, of their profession. [01:53:46.177 – 01:53:48.797] And, and so that's an understandable thing. [01:53:48.797 – 01:53:53.217] It's also an e– It's a convenient hiding place, too, you know? [01:53:53.217 – 01:53:56.537] Where you can avoid responsibilities by, by hiding out. [01:53:56.537 – 01:54:06.677] Yeah, I'd, I'd– One of the things I heard Bill Wilson say one time was, um, that– He was talking about anonymity, and he said it, it, it, it was never

[01:54:06.677 – 01:54:17.037] intended to, to, to, to, to cause AA to be a h– a fugitive hiding place, that the, the function of AA is to restore [01:54:17.037 – 01:54:19.237] us to our rightful place in the world. [01:54:19.237 – 01:54:29.417] And, uh, so, so my ex-experience has been that unless it's some remarkably sensitive place, there's rarely trouble [01:54:29.417 – 01:54:31.357] if you got well-established sobriety. [01:54:31.357 – 01:54:37.577] It's, um, uh, uh, I can think of a thousand, thousand examples. [01:54:37.577 – 01:54:42.897] Well, I'll give you one as a kind of a ludicrous sounding thing, but, uh, I think it makes a point.

[01:54:42.897 – 01:54:51.437] I, I had a friend who was an attorney, and he was walking down the street one day, and he met a fellow attorney who was having a lot of trouble with booze. [01:54:51.437 – 01:55:01.457] And so my buddy stopped the guy and chatted with him a minute and said, "Man, why don't you give it up and come on to AA?" And the, uh, the drunk attorney said, uh, [01:55:01.457 – 01:55:03.577] "Oh, man, I couldn't do that. [01:55:03.577 – 01:55:13.596] Man, if word got out about that, it would ruin me." And, uh, and my buddy said, "If word got out that I was not in AA, it would ruin me."

[01:55:13.596 – 01:55:23.617] And so, so most of the time, if there's, if there's not some inordinate demand for anonymity, most of us [01:55:23.617 – 01:55:31.077] can do effective work without a lot of fanfare, without a lot of, of notoriety, and, and it's usually handled very well. [01:55:31.077 – 01:55:34.297] Uh, things have changed, some of them good. [01:55:34.297 – 01:55:36.517] I, I, I can give you an example of airline pilots. [01:55:36.517 – 01:55:46.777] When I– When, when, when, when, when I first started encountering airline pilots in AA, those guys were as scared

[01:55:46.777 – 01:55:56.307] as any human could be because if they got under– if they got known as an alcoholic, I don't care if they recovered twenty years, they were fired- Right. [01:55:56.307 – 01:55:56.417] Right … [01:55:56.417 – 01:55:58.397] immediately with no questions. [01:55:58.397 – 01:56:03.217] And, and so I had, I had a buddy who, uh, I didn't know what was wrong with him. [01:56:03.217 – 01:56:04.577] I thought– I didn't know he was a pilot. [01:56:04.577 – 01:56:06.427] And, uh, I didn't know what was wrong with him. [01:56:06.427 – 01:56:07.827] I knew he was flinchy about something.

[01:56:07.827 – 01:56:10.377] But he, he didn't have a name. [01:56:10.377 – 01:56:11.317] He had initials. [01:56:11.317 – 01:56:13.037] His initials were CC. [01:56:13.037 – 01:56:14.167] Oh, yeah. [01:56:14.167 – 01:56:16.077] And … [01:56:16.077 – 01:56:18.267] CC. [01:56:18.267 – 01:56:19.567] Yeah, that's right. [01:56:19.567 – 01:56:21.657] See how anonymous he was? [01:56:21.657 – 01:56:23.057] He even said his initials. [01:56:23.057 – 01:56:26.637] But this guy and I were buddies. [01:56:26.637 – 01:56:37.457] And one day I asked him, I said, "What is your name?" And he looked all around, and he said, "CC." "But don't tell anybody." Well, [01:56:37.457 – 01:56:39.717] thank God those days are lifted, you know? [01:56:39.717 – 01:56:42.557] And, and today we've got a lot more freedom with that.

[01:56:42.557 – 01:56:48.617] So I'm tap dancing around that because there's not a real forthright kind of way to do it. [01:56:48.617 – 01:56:52.817] I, I tell you this, I'm about as anonymous as a train wreck. [01:56:52.817 – 01:57:03.077] And, uh, and if there has ever been one iota of i-injury, embarrassment, or anything [01:57:03.077 – 01:57:06.297] else as a result of that, I don't know it. [01:57:06.297 – 01:57:07.616] I don't know it. [01:57:07.616 – 01:57:11.437] What– I, I'll give you one other example on that because I think it is. [01:57:11.437 – 01:57:16.997] You, you, you– Sometimes you grow up with this illusion of the need for anonymity and grossly exaggerate.

[01:57:16.997 – 01:57:21.497] For a lot of years when I was flying somewhere, people would ask me where I'm going. [01:57:21.497 – 01:57:23.137] I'm nearly always going to a A meeting. [01:57:23.137 – 01:57:23.477] Yep. [01:57:23.477 – 01:57:23.887] And so they- [01:57:23.990 – 01:57:26.430] If people would ask me and I would just sort of be evasive. [01:57:26.430 – 01:57:28.890] I wouldn't lie, I'd just sort of avoid the truth. [01:57:28.890 – 01:57:35.930] And as I say, "Oh, I'm going to Chicago." "What for?" "Conference." "What's it about?" I say, "Oh, it's about alcoholism." Well, this is not about alcoholism. [01:57:35.930 – 01:57:39.090] It's part of the agenda, but it's about recovery.

[01:57:39.090 – 01:57:39.970] It's about new life. [01:57:39.970 – 01:57:49.290] And, and, and one day I was flying somewhere, and I thought, "Why on earth do I do that?" That's got nothing to do with anonymity. [01:57:49.290 – 01:57:51.410] Absolutely nothing. [01:57:51.410 – 01:57:54.890] What it has to do with is either pride or fear. [01:57:54.890 – 01:58:00.090] Now, what's anonymous about a steel tube thirty-five thousand feet in the air, for God's… [01:58:00.090 – 01:58:10.150] And I said, "Man, that's dumb." And I said, "I ain't gonna do that anymore." And, and from that point forward, if anybody wants

[01:58:10.150 – 01:58:12.530] to know where I'm going, they better be interested. [01:58:12.530 – 01:58:20.490] And I'll guarantee you, I'll guarantee you they're gonna kn-know where I'm going. [01:58:20.490 – 01:58:22.140] And they're gonna know something. [01:58:22.140 – 01:58:32.210] And the, the important thing is, not only have I never had an awkward situation, I have never had a single person that wasn't [01:58:32.210 – 01:58:33.850] more than interested. [01:58:33.850 – 01:58:36.830] Practically every one of them's got one in their tree. [01:58:36.830 – 01:58:38.469] God, every family's got one. [01:58:38.469 – 01:58:42.410] I find some that they're the one, you know. [01:58:42.410 – 01:58:45.110] Found runaway alcoholics.

[01:58:45.110 – 01:58:47.350] It, it's amazing what, what happens. [01:58:47.350 – 01:58:49.710] And, uh, when you just open up, you know. [01:58:49.710 – 01:58:51.650] And, and that's what this program is about. [01:58:51.650 – 01:58:57.970] It's about being able to be free, to be who I am, to just be open and natural and not furtive and guarded. [01:58:57.970 – 01:59:04.290] And so as much as humanly possible, you know, I hope you'll move in that direction because that's where the liberation is. [01:59:04.290 – 01:59:10.490] And I know you gotta protect your flanks, but don't sacrifice the, the farm in the process.

[01:59:10.490 – 01:59:12.530] So now, all the best. [01:59:12.530 – 01:59:13.310] Thank you. [01:59:13.310 – 01:59:13.590] Thank you. [01:59:13.590 – 01:59:14.630] Mm-hmm. [01:59:14.630 – 01:59:17.210] I'm Ken Albaugh. [01:59:17.210 – 01:59:17.880] Hi, Ken. [01:59:17.880 – 01:59:17.990] Hi, Ken. [01:59:17.990 – 01:59:18.660] Hi. [01:59:18.660 – 01:59:29.050] Um, I would imagine that there are a lot, or rather that there is a lot of profit to be had, uh, from, uh, other organizations, whether it be, say, treatment facilities [01:59:29.050 – 01:59:30.090] or what have you. [01:59:30.090 – 01:59:40.090] And, uh, what, what kind of conflicts have you run into with regards to, um, uh, AA, AA over [01:59:40.090 – 01:59:41.259] treatment facilities? [01:59:41.259 – 01:59:48.770] You know, because, uh, uh, uh, what's, what's more important, the bottom dollar or the welfare of the individual, you know?

[01:59:48.770 – 01:59:53.630] Uh, I hear so many people say they went from one facility to another, to another, to another. [01:59:53.630 – 02:00:00.730] And instead of getting caught in what, uh, what some people call the revolving door of AA, they get caught in the revolving door of a treatment facility. [02:00:00.730 – 02:00:08.930] Okay, what can we do to prevent them from even getting that far into the trap of a treatment facility? [02:00:08.930 – 02:00:10.490] That's question number one. [02:00:10.490 – 02:00:21.070] Uh, um, I've got a– The other question is, um, what, uh, can we do w-within our own groups,

[02:00:21.070 – 02:00:24.770] uh, to, uh, keep peop- uh, from getting caught in that trap? [02:00:24.770 – 02:00:28.490] One thing my home group does, because we have what's called couch duty. [02:00:28.490 – 02:00:28.710] Okay. [02:00:28.710 – 02:00:29.270] Call what? [02:00:29.270 – 02:00:30.230] Couch duty. [02:00:30.230 – 02:00:30.790] Uh-huh. [02:00:30.790 – 02:00:31.110] Okay. [02:00:31.110 – 02:00:41.110] Um, where, where someone, uh, who's like real fresh and, and is, is, uh, has no place to stay, uh, uh, they'll stay at one person's house [02:00:41.110 – 02:00:48.210] for a few days, then someone else's house for a few days, then someone else's house for a few days, and be like working on alcohol, you know.

[02:00:48.210 – 02:00:56.710] Um, it appears to me that the treatment facilities, uh, take away that desperation of that one-on-one that you were talking about earlier. [02:00:56.710 – 02:00:56.920] Mm-hmm. [02:00:56.920 – 02:01:04.270] You know, with, uh, like, uh, tinkering up, you know, to our, uh, like, like robot, uh, cases. [02:01:04.270 – 02:01:05.500] So what can we do about that? [02:01:05.500 – 02:01:05.690] Mm-hmm. [02:01:05.690 – 02:01:10.790] There's a, there's a fine line between what we can do and what we ought to do. [02:01:10.790 – 02:01:15.490] The, uh, treatment facilities are an outside issue. [02:01:15.490 – 02:01:23.290] And, and, and the conflict I have with them is zero because I don't, don't, I don't have any reason to have any conflict with them.

[02:01:23.290 – 02:01:28.530] They, uh, you know, they are an outside entity and, and, you know, you know… [02:01:28.530 – 02:01:32.590] So my, my– I don't have any sort of a range war going with those folks. [02:01:32.590 – 02:01:34.110] If, um… [02:01:34.110 – 02:01:43.289] I think what you, what you guys are doing, it sounds a lot like the old-fashioned twelve-step work we were doing. [02:01:43.289 – 02:01:53.310] Yeah, and I, and I suspect that we're gonna be doing more and more of that because the advent of treatment is upon us, and, and it's getting increasingly difficult to find places

[02:01:53.310 – 02:01:55.070] for treatment that's affordable. [02:01:55.070 – 02:01:58.750] And, uh, insurance companies are quitting paying. [02:01:58.750 – 02:02:02.260] And, and so where there used to be treatment centers are now hotdog stands. [02:02:02.260 – 02:02:08.950] So- So those who yearn for the good old days are gonna get their prayers answered because it, it– those days are coming back. [02:02:08.950 – 02:02:12.130] So that's certainly one alternative. [02:02:12.130 – 02:02:22.330] I personally, uh, I personally don't hesitate to s- to, to recommend somebody to a treatment center, but only, [02:02:22.330 – 02:02:23.950] and my criteria is very simple. [02:02:23.950 – 02:02:28.010] If they cannot stay sober for one day, I'll recommend treatment.

[02:02:28.010 – 02:02:33.490] But if they can stay sober for one day, that's what you need to get going in AA. [02:02:33.490 – 02:02:35.690] And so I think there's a great place. [02:02:35.690 – 02:02:37.470] Everybody doesn't need treatment. [02:02:37.470 – 02:02:40.930] We went through a time when, I swear to God, I felt sorry for alcoholics. [02:02:40.930 – 02:02:45.370] They could drink a half a pint, and some, some guys, somebody would capture them and have them in treatment. [02:02:45.370 – 02:02:54.230] And I thought, "Oh, that is really– I mean, what a cruel thing to do to somebody." And he got started good, and somebody already got him captured.

[02:02:54.230 – 02:02:57.430] That- So I, I think you can, you can overdo it. [02:02:57.430 – 02:03:02.870] And, and so I think I'm lined up pretty solidly with, with what you guys are doing. [02:03:02.870 – 02:03:13.350] I'd, I'd, I'd– The reason I say, uh, be cautious about how far, when we get into trying to influence an outside entity, we're, we're in the wrong ballpark. [02:03:13.350 – 02:03:21.690] But with the drunk that we're working with, you know, whatever we can do to help him get the closest to the scene of the crime, the better.

[02:03:21.690 – 02:03:27.030] You know, I, I really like to see somebody be able to get sober the old-fashioned way when they can. [02:03:27.030 – 02:03:28.670] But sometimes they can't. [02:03:28.670 – 02:03:33.114] So anyway, I'd- Well, I've said enough about that, I think, Ed. [02:03:33.114 – 02:03:35.994] But I, I commend you for what you guys are doing, for sure. [02:03:35.994 – 02:03:37.494] Yeah. [02:03:37.494 – 02:03:41.254] Thank you. [02:03:41.254 – 02:03:42.144] Hi, my name is Matt. [02:03:42.144 – 02:03:43.514] I'm, uh, powerless over alcohol. [02:03:43.514 – 02:03:44.374] Hi, Matt. [02:03:44.374 – 02:03:45.434] Yeah, you too. [02:03:45.434 – 02:03:54.814] Um, I'm just wondering, uh, I need some, uh, clarification on the fifth step of, uh, admitting to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

[02:03:54.814 – 02:04:03.654] And you know, when I was five years old, I was just a little boy, I got the concept of, like, of God through my father, who was never there for me, and I didn't trust. [02:04:03.654 – 02:04:07.294] So, uh, you know, I kind of separ- I, I was separate. [02:04:07.294 – 02:04:12.124] I, I thought I was a rotten kid at five years old, and that God wasn't available to me, available to me. [02:04:12.124 – 02:04:18.354] So is, is that separation, me separating myself and becoming self-reliant, the exact nature of my wrongs?

[02:04:18.354 – 02:04:19.314] Or I just… [02:04:19.314 – 02:04:27.514] I'm not exactly sure what it means when they say that, the exact nature of our wrongs in the fifth step. [02:04:27.514 – 02:04:30.694] The definition of the exact nature of our wrongs? [02:04:30.694 – 02:04:30.824] Yes. [02:04:30.824 – 02:04:32.834] But what– I didn't get the childhood thing. [02:04:32.834 – 02:04:34.374] What did that have to do with that? [02:04:34.374 – 02:04:43.774] Well, um, just, like, I, I'm thinking that, you know, my alcoholism, you know, the core of my disease is, you know, loneliness and low self-esteem. [02:04:43.774 – 02:04:54.054] And, um, and I just, feeling that way, feeling that like God wasn't available to me because I was bad, you know, and

[02:04:54.054 – 02:04:56.474] I– where a five-year-old kid comes up with that, I don't know. [02:04:56.474 – 02:04:58.834] But, you know, I'm just trying to figure out… [02:04:58.834 – 02:05:08.734] You know, I want to carry this message, and when I sponsor people, and if I hear, you know, hear somebody's fifth step, you know, I want to be able to explain to them, you know, what is the exact nature of our wrongs? [02:05:08.734 – 02:05:16.294] Are, is everybody– We– Are all of our wrong– you know, the exact nature, is it the same for everybody, or is it different for different people?

[02:05:16.294 – 02:05:17.794] Oh, okay. [02:05:17.794 – 02:05:27.894] Well, I think that, uh, in the fourth step, we're making a list of our character defects, and [02:05:27.894 – 02:05:31.174] that, that list is the same as in the fifth step. [02:05:31.174 – 02:05:41.174] In other words, uh, it's what we have written down as, uh, in our inventory, and it's just another way of [02:05:41.174 – 02:05:43.674] saying it, the exact nature of our wrongs. [02:05:43.674 – 02:05:53.914] What it allows in the fifth step is, um, I did– Uh, you know, I have a tendency to do this,

[02:05:53.914 – 02:05:56.093] and I did it 1,000 times. [02:05:56.093 – 02:05:58.374] Here's number one. [02:05:58.374 – 02:05:59.494] Here's number two. [02:05:59.494 – 02:06:00.474] Here's number three. [02:06:00.474 – 02:06:01.474] Here's number four. [02:06:01.474 – 02:06:03.774] I don't have to go through all 1,000. [02:06:03.774 – 02:06:07.854] I have covered the nature of it. [02:06:07.854 – 02:06:09.854] You follow what I'm saying? [02:06:09.854 – 02:06:13.114] You mean, like, your– the, the defect that it… [02:06:13.114 – 02:06:14.914] No, I don't follow. [02:06:14.914 – 02:06:22.314] Um, you mean– So the exact nature is you're covering, like, the defect of, you know, whatever you're talking about? [02:06:22.314 – 02:06:26.494] It's what we went over in the fourth step.

[02:06:26.494 – 02:06:27.193] Okay. [02:06:27.193 – 02:06:28.174] Okay? [02:06:28.174 – 02:06:36.614] In other words, I'm gonna share that with my higher power and with another person, generally my sponsor. [02:06:36.614 – 02:06:43.314] And so whatever I have listed is what I'm sharing. [02:06:43.314 – 02:06:47.214] Does that, does that make any sense to you? [02:06:47.214 – 02:06:51.114] No, I guess I'm, I guess I'm looking for, like, the concrete, the exact nature. [02:06:51.114 – 02:07:01.494] Like, what is the exact nature of our, our wrongs, or just the exact nature of, you know, um, our character defects? [02:07:01.494 – 02:07:07.094] Well, a lot of us- Well, I mean, if I lied to someone, the exact nature is the lie.

[02:07:07.094 – 02:07:08.674] Okay. [02:07:08.674 – 02:07:09.364] Yeah. [02:07:09.364 – 02:07:10.754] So it's in the concrete act? [02:07:10.754 – 02:07:12.294] Yeah. [02:07:12.294 – 02:07:12.894] Okay. [02:07:12.894 – 02:07:14.114] Yeah, it's exactly what… [02:07:14.114 – 02:07:17.774] It's, it– I suppose we're trying to find more in there than there is. [02:07:17.774 – 02:07:21.914] Does that make sense to you? [02:07:21.914 – 02:07:27.054] If you- Let me, let me, uh, let me- The exact nature of- Let me add one other thing that might be an example. [02:07:27.054 – 02:07:31.634] That, uh, you know, in the inventory, there's surprising things in there. [02:07:31.634 – 02:07:36.094] One of the areas that I found had to do with my relationship with my mother.

[02:07:36.094 – 02:07:41.394] And, uh, she was a wonderful lady, a lo- wonderful, loving person. [02:07:41.394 – 02:07:42.474] She just overdid it. [02:07:42.474 – 02:07:49.954] And so I grew up in, in a, a family that was essentially male absent, female dominant. [02:07:49.954 – 02:08:00.144] And, and so when I started looking at the nature of that relationship, it had a mixture of both feelings I had [02:08:00.144 – 02:08:00.874] toward her. [02:08:00.874 – 02:08:03.374] That was part of the nature of the wrong. [02:08:04.364 – 02:08:09.204] The other was the, that, that what I deprived her of. [02:08:09.204 – 02:08:10.864] You see what I'm talking about?

[02:08:10.864 – 02:08:21.504] That in, in one sense, I, I was– had a lot of anger toward her, and I felt a lot of guilt and fear that, that, that grew up in, in that matriarchal [02:08:21.504 – 02:08:22.364] society. [02:08:22.364 – 02:08:27.703] On the other side, what I, what I deprived her of was a son. [02:08:27.703 – 02:08:29.304] Yeah. [02:08:29.304 – 02:08:34.904] Now she knew she had one somewhere, but most of the time she didn't even know where I was. [02:08:34.904 – 02:08:43.144] And so, I deprived her probably excuse me, nothing more important to a mother than her child.

[02:08:43.144 – 02:08:51.564] And so, for most of my life, she didn't know whether I was living or dead or present or account or anything. [02:08:51.564 – 02:09:01.724] And so, when you look at the nature of the wrong, you know, that's what starts to come out, you know, was that, that there was a real dis– uh, damage to relationship [02:09:01.724 – 02:09:01.964] there. [02:09:01.964 – 02:09:09.004] The– and the wrong sort of generalized into a general ability to have relationships with people. [02:09:09.004 – 02:09:18.784] You know, kind of revealing that as- Yeah …I started dealing with that, you know, I saw that fundamental to my inability to have relationships went back to that.

[02:09:18.784 – 02:09:24.963] And so, the importance of getting down to the nature of the wrongs is that it's, that's where the freedom comes from. [02:09:24.963 – 02:09:30.944] And so just, you know, going to that kind of detail, it helps me to get a real handle on what I'm doing. [02:09:30.944 – 02:09:34.504] It also sets up the amends process very neatly too. [02:09:34.504 – 02:09:35.104] Yeah. [02:09:35.104 – 02:09:42.844] Yeah, I guess, uh, when I do, uh, fourth and fifth step, I'm actually helping on the fourth. [02:09:42.844 – 02:09:44.684] Mm-hmm. [02:09:44.684 – 02:09:49.464] And- Um, it's just a technique I developed in the last fifteen years.

[02:09:49.464 – 02:09:59.584] Rather than let somebody complete it all and bring it- Yeah …I-I– we just start, and I go, "Let's, let's just talk about this." Well, I got this down, and [02:09:59.584 – 02:10:09.904] then I flesh it out and say, "Well, do you see that this implication and that implication?" And I guess that really is the exact nature, is the ability [02:10:09.904 – 02:10:11.764] to see the third dimension of it. [02:10:11.764 – 02:10:14.964] Medication is- Yeah …necessary. [02:10:14.964 – 02:10:15.764] Right. [02:10:15.764 – 02:10:18.124] I just never connected it with those words. [02:10:18.124 – 02:10:19.624] I'm glad Tom did today.

[02:10:19.624 – 02:10:23.544] Hi, my name is Beth, and I'm from Alcoholics- Hi, Beth. [02:10:23.544 – 02:10:27.184] Um, thanks, Jeff, for your service, and thank you so much- Pull it down a little bit. [02:10:27.184 – 02:10:28.584] We– I'm sorry. [02:10:28.584 – 02:10:30.143] My name is Beth. [02:10:30.143 – 02:10:30.234] I'm from Alcoholics. [02:10:30.234 – 02:10:32.464] Thanks, Jeff, for your service, and thank you so much. [02:10:32.464 – 02:10:35.974] Um, Sandy, I think I heard a tape of yours, uh… [02:10:35.974 – 02:10:36.744] Are you a surfer? [02:10:36.744 – 02:10:37.584] No. [02:10:37.584 – 02:10:46.083] And my other question was- Well, I could have been lying back then. [02:10:46.083 – 02:10:53.164] He's bad. [02:10:53.164 – 02:11:03.424] My other question was, um, if you had, um, either one of you had a personal experience with, um, Doctor Bob or Bill, and if you can just share a story

[02:11:03.424 – 02:11:03.864] about that. [02:11:03.864 – 02:11:03.914] What? [02:11:03.914 – 02:11:04.784] About what? [02:11:04.784 – 02:11:10.784] Um, your, uh, personal interaction with, uh, with Bill or, uh, Doctor Bob. [02:11:10.784 – 02:11:13.544] Just, uh, like a little story about them. [02:11:13.544 – 02:11:14.124] No. [02:11:14.124 – 02:11:24.124] Um, every year, my friend Hal Marley would say to me, "You wanna go to the Bill Wilson dinner with me?" And I would say, "I don't have enough money." And it was [02:11:24.124 – 02:11:25.844] just from Washington to New York. [02:11:25.844 – 02:11:35.864] And after about six years, he said, "You know, he's not gonna live forever, and you're gonna regret that you never met him." Well, he was right

[02:11:35.864 – 02:11:44.393] because in nineteen seventy-one, he died, and what would I give to be able to say I shook his hand or had a picture of me and Bill? [02:11:44.393 – 02:11:46.204] But I don't– I didn't meet… [02:11:46.204 – 02:11:47.684] And obviously, I didn't meet Doctor Bob. [02:11:47.684 – 02:11:48.844] He died in nineteen fifty. [02:11:48.844 – 02:11:49.294] Mm-hmm. [02:11:49.294 – 02:11:52.024] Now, I did have the, the privilege. [02:11:52.024 – 02:11:53.964] I did. [02:11:53.964 – 02:12:02.164] I, I went to my first international convention in Toronto in sixty-five, and my primary motivation… [02:12:02.164 – 02:12:03.604] I mean, I was broke, man. [02:12:03.604 – 02:12:04.584] I'm just out of jail.

[02:12:04.584 – 02:12:05.744] I couldn't afford it. [02:12:05.744 – 02:12:12.303] But I, I– my primary motivation was that I thought that would be my last chance to see Bill. [02:12:12.303 – 02:12:14.184] And for some reason, I wanted to see him. [02:12:14.184 – 02:12:15.484] You know, I didn't wanna tell him anything. [02:12:15.484 – 02:12:17.044] I didn't wanna press on him anything. [02:12:17.044 – 02:12:19.604] I just wanted to see him, make sure he's there, you know. [02:12:19.604 – 02:12:24.824] And, uh, and so, so I went up and, uh, and of course, I saw him a lot. [02:12:24.824 – 02:12:26.604] He was like the Energizer Bunny.

[02:12:26.604 – 02:12:27.904] He was just all over the place. [02:12:27.904 – 02:12:33.304] And, uh, and then one day we had a, we had a traditions meeting. [02:12:33.304 – 02:12:36.204] And you can always count on a skinny crowd. [02:12:36.204 – 02:12:39.644] And, uh- …and so I, I– and there's my chance. [02:12:39.644 – 02:12:40.064] I went in. [02:12:40.064 – 02:12:42.684] There was about probably thirty-five of us in a room. [02:12:42.684 – 02:12:46.744] And so I had a chance to sit down and listen to Bill. [02:12:46.744 – 02:12:49.144] Uh, we, we weren't fishing buddies. [02:12:49.144 – 02:12:50.644] We were just people in a meeting. [02:12:50.644 – 02:13:00.444] But to hear our founder articulate about the program, the thing I mentioned about anonymity a little earlier, I listened to him tell that.

[02:13:00.444 – 02:13:06.614] I listened to him describe the vision that he had for Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:13:06.614 – 02:13:10.224] And, and you– one of the thing– I mean, it's unforgettable words. [02:13:10.224 – 02:13:12.384] It was not Sermon on the Mount, but it came from him. [02:13:12.384 – 02:13:22.484] And, and, and one of the things he said was that he was, he was talking about the, uh, that, that recovery process and that it w- it's not a hiding place, that the function [02:13:22.484 – 02:13:24.724] of AA is to restore our place in the world.

[02:13:24.724 – 02:13:34.764] And, and, and, and what he said was that if we practice these principles the way they're laid out, there will come a day when you'll be [02:13:34.764 – 02:13:40.444] able to walk the streets of this earth and look any human you meet comfortably in the eye. [02:13:40.444 – 02:13:43.383] Man, I was nowhere close to that. [02:13:43.383 – 02:13:46.944] But what a promise, really. [02:13:46.944 – 02:13:47.904] What a promise. [02:13:47.904 – 02:13:54.864] And, and it was a true promise because today I don't know of a human that I can meet and not comfortably look them in the eye.

[02:13:54.864 – 02:13:59.984] And, and so it was not only a wonderful experience to see the guy. [02:13:59.984 – 02:14:09.544] Uh, it, it was just to be there, to feel that energy, to- Appreciate his intelligence, his creative– uh, God, what a creative man. [02:14:09.544 – 02:14:14.064] And, uh, so yeah, and I, I did and value it to, to this day. [02:14:14.064 – 02:14:14.484] Yeah. [02:14:14.484 – 02:14:19.124] Let me just add, this year I went to Stepping Stones for the first time. [02:14:19.124 – 02:14:19.754] Mm. [02:14:19.754 – 02:14:29.784] My sister and I went down and, um, I'm a big history student of AA, and I misunderstood that part in the history when they got

[02:14:29.784 – 02:14:36.024] evicted from the townhouse in Brooklyn, and their furniture was put out in the street. [02:14:36.024 – 02:14:39.084] I assumed that they– it had been lost. [02:14:39.084 – 02:14:42.904] That's, that's how I recorded it in my head when I read that. [02:14:42.904 – 02:14:47.384] I didn't know that they got it all back, and it went to Stepping Stones. [02:14:47.384 – 02:14:55.744] So when we went into the kitchen, and the person who was giving the tour said, "This is the table that Bill and Ebby sat at." Yeah. [02:14:55.744 – 02:14:57.494] I said, "This is?

[02:14:57.494 – 02:15:02.943] It is?" And here's this cheap old Formica white table. [02:15:02.943 – 02:15:05.784] And I'm going, "Give me that camera. [02:15:05.784 – 02:15:15.864] I wanna blow this up." So I got one in my briefcase and, um, it– when I show it to non-alcoholics, they really look weird. [02:15:15.864 – 02:15:21.004] Why I'm so excited about a table. [02:15:21.004 – 02:15:23.464] Now, I never went to Stepping Stones. [02:15:23.464 – 02:15:25.224] That's only for circuit speakers. [02:15:25.224 – 02:15:31.204] Just one minute here. [02:15:31.204 – 02:15:34.004] Let me tell you one other thing that you're looking for nostalgia. [02:15:34.004 – 02:15:34.884] I'll tell you one other thing.

[02:15:34.884 – 02:15:41.164] In, uh, eighty-five, I was invited to speak at the fiftieth anniversary of AA in Akron. [02:15:41.164 – 02:15:51.004] And, and God knows, that's a monumental occasion, a monumental experience, and, and my first thought was, "Why on earth would they invite a guy like me? [02:15:51.004 – 02:15:54.884] I mean, hell's bells, they could get Nobel, uh, uh, laureates. [02:15:54.884 – 02:15:58.464] They could get scientists, celebrities, a billionaire. [02:15:58.464 – 02:16:05.204] Why would you get some junkyard dog from North Carolina?" And that's just the instinctive insecurity about it. [02:16:05.204 – 02:16:13.584] But then I thought about it, and I said, "Well, why wouldn't they?" Because this is not about the rich and famous and powerful and brilliant.

[02:16:13.584 – 02:16:16.664] This is about folks who've been broken and healed. [02:16:16.664 – 02:16:20.924] So I got over it. [02:16:20.924 – 02:16:20.954] Bless you. [02:16:20.954 – 02:16:25.064] And went up– and w– and, and after I, I spoke, we went over to Dr. [02:16:25.064 – 02:16:25.884] Bob's house. [02:16:25.884 – 02:16:28.344] Now, this wasn't planned by anybody. [02:16:28.344 – 02:16:29.924] That table reminded me of it. [02:16:29.924 – 02:16:37.624] I sat down– Somebody said, "Would you like a sandwich?" I said, "Yeah, let's do it." So I, so I sat down, if you can picture this, at Dr. [02:16:37.624 – 02:16:44.544] Bob's house with his son, Smitty, and his daughter, Sue.

[02:16:44.544 – 02:16:45.384] Sue, yeah. [02:16:45.384 – 02:16:46.344] And me. [02:16:46.344 – 02:16:49.884] Now, I didn't say a word. [02:16:49.884 – 02:16:56.904] But I'll tell you what, I was about to delve with that sandwich 'cause, boy, that was overwhelming. [02:16:56.904 – 02:16:57.144] Yeah. [02:16:57.144 – 02:17:02.064] That's where you see a vision realized, a vision come real. [02:17:02.064 – 02:17:07.404] And, and so that, that was just a tremendously important, important occasion for me. [02:17:07.404 – 02:17:08.444] But I don't know. [02:17:08.444 – 02:17:14.824] I'm not a hero worshiper or anything like that, but those folks that, that founded this program to me, special place. [02:17:14.824 – 02:17:17.744] I have one other special.

[02:17:17.744 – 02:17:18.224] Yeah. [02:17:18.224 – 02:17:23.084] I sat in Chuck Chamberlain's chair overlooking the Pacific Ocean. [02:17:23.084 – 02:17:27.884] Even though Bernie owned it all. [02:17:27.884 – 02:17:28.344] Yeah. [02:17:28.344 – 02:17:37.624] Anyway, I mean, that was like, "Oh, my God." And before our next question, I just wanna remind everybody we have about ten minutes. [02:17:37.624 – 02:17:47.084] So in case there's anyone who has sort of that last, if you will, burning question for our two panelists, I wanna make sure that you have time to, uh, to stand up and, and ask that question.

[02:17:47.084 – 02:17:48.024] Please, go ahead. [02:17:48.024 – 02:17:50.744] Hi, I'm Beth. [02:17:50.744 – 02:17:51.344] I'm not with . [02:17:51.344 – 02:17:51.374] Hi. [02:17:51.374 – 02:17:51.374] Hi, Beth. [02:17:51.374 – 02:17:55.394] It's just a pleasure to be here . [02:17:55.394 – 02:17:58.584] Um, well, Tom and Terry, thank you for your informative workshop. [02:17:58.584 – 02:18:02.364] It was really good to be here and get the information that you gave. [02:18:02.364 – 02:18:03.404] I did a lot of writing. [02:18:03.404 – 02:18:04.823] I brought a lot of paper with me. [02:18:04.823 – 02:18:11.033] Um, I have, uh, questions about H and I meetings, and- That one. [02:18:11.033 – 02:18:11.134] What? [02:18:11.134 – 02:18:13.004] One of the questions is- What kind of meetings?

[02:18:13.004 – 02:18:17.564] Where you take in– take a meeting to a institute- Okay …hospitals and- Yeah. [02:18:17.564 – 02:18:19.473] Okay …I do want to add a, uh, woman's. [02:18:19.473 – 02:18:19.714] Mm. [02:18:19.714 – 02:18:20.044] Right. [02:18:20.044 – 02:18:27.644] And I guess, you know, I just wanted some information on guidelines in terms of, you know, the type of meeting. [02:18:27.644 – 02:18:31.104] You know, if you should do specific meetings, if there should be a certain focus. [02:18:31.104 – 02:18:41.104] Um, if you should, you know, be trying to teach something and if so, what, uh, format or, you know, I know you bring in speakers, but would you like to try to do

[02:18:41.104 – 02:18:42.884] other things as well? [02:18:42.884 – 02:18:44.014] Um, any- [02:18:45.218 – 02:18:45.228] Yeah. [02:18:45.228 – 02:18:45.978] Mm-hmm. [02:18:45.978 – 02:18:48.498] For that much, you're gonna have something after that. [02:18:48.498 – 02:18:52.827] About different types of, types of meetings that- Yeah. [02:18:52.827 – 02:18:55.138] Kinda like what would be a guideline or structure of stuff. [02:18:55.138 – 02:18:55.378] Mm-hmm. [02:18:55.378 – 02:18:57.578] Do something like that. [02:18:57.578 – 02:19:01.658] I, uh, well, I, I tell you what, in shaping a program for a, for a place… [02:19:01.658 – 02:19:07.478] You know, I mentioned about going in and meeting with the people, finding out how the place work. [02:19:07.478 – 02:19:10.998] The other thing I wanna, I wanna know is who's in there.

[02:19:10.998 – 02:19:17.898] Now, I don't mean personal information, but I wanna know who are the folks that are in that place. [02:19:17.898 – 02:19:19.978] How long are they gonna be there? [02:19:19.978 – 02:19:22.518] You know, what are their circumstances? [02:19:22.518 – 02:19:25.558] You know, I, I want a picture of that population. [02:19:25.558 – 02:19:34.958] And, you know, I wanna know how long they're gonna be staying because when you plan a program, it has to fit the environment it's gonna work in. [02:19:34.958 – 02:19:39.918] And, and that's why I don't like planning a program and then going trying to stick it in somewhere.

[02:19:39.918 – 02:19:44.598] You know, the program has to be designed to meet the needs of that particular group. [02:19:44.598 – 02:19:53.108] Uh, I'll give you a, a real, uh, real quick, a little example. [02:19:53.108 – 02:19:55.498] We were gonna do a program at a local jail. [02:19:55.498 – 02:20:02.538] And so, we went over and met with the sheriff and, you know, the leaders of that thing, and had them tell us about the place. [02:20:02.538 – 02:20:06.138] Well, as it turned out, what we're talking about was a hot cop situation, by and large.

[02:20:06.138 – 02:20:10.418] They had a few folks who stayed around, but most of them were just sorta in and out like a bus station. [02:20:10.418 – 02:20:14.678] Well, it was pretty clear when we got through we were not gonna do an AA meeting at all. [02:20:14.678 – 02:20:22.358] That, well, an AA meeting would've been, would've been a, a joke because they couldn't even get there long enough to learn how to say the prayer, you know? [02:20:22.358 – 02:20:28.178] And, and, and so what we wound up doing was putting together an AA information session.

[02:20:28.178 – 02:20:36.458] And we wound up with s- I think seven topics or something of really relevant information that a guy needed to go. [02:20:36.458 – 02:20:42.078] Our objective for that was to get, create enough interest that they would go to one meeting when they got out. [02:20:42.078 – 02:20:42.988] Mm-hmm. [02:20:42.988 – 02:20:44.678] That was realistic for that situation. [02:20:44.678 – 02:20:52.698] So, you know, I've seen people try to do Big Book studies in a similar s-setting, and my God, that's ludicrous. [02:20:52.698 – 02:21:02.818] And so when, when I'm doing a program, that's, that's what I wanna do, is make sure the program fits the needs of the group that you're dealing with and, and, and make it, make it fit.

[02:21:02.818 – 02:21:04.218] Make it fit that environment. [02:21:04.218 – 02:21:04.858] Yeah. [02:21:04.858 – 02:21:06.218] And what was the other? [02:21:06.218 – 02:21:15.118] Um, someone raised a question about having a Round Robin, um, meeting, and I was wondering if that was something that you were familiar with, and if so, what is that? [02:21:15.118 – 02:21:15.598] Mm-hmm. [02:21:15.598 – 02:21:18.878] So it's Round Robin, you know. [02:21:18.878 – 02:21:23.718] How- That's basically where you get together and, uh, folks from around an area, and, and I hope eat. [02:21:23.718 – 02:21:25.898] You know, you don't you usually eat at those things. [02:21:25.898 – 02:21:30.938] Not when they're still allowing you in there.

[02:21:30.938 – 02:21:32.818] I'm, I'm not sure, sure about that. [02:21:32.818 – 02:21:34.458] I, I think they serve a great purpose. [02:21:34.458 – 02:21:36.938] I, I think eating meetings serve a good purpose. [02:21:36.938 – 02:21:39.338] And, and not just eat. [02:21:39.338 – 02:21:43.958] It's important to share gifts, and that's what you do at a eating meeting, to share gifts. [02:21:43.958 – 02:21:49.818] And so I, I think anything like that that nurtures that, that spiritual bond that we've got. [02:21:49.818 – 02:21:49.998] Yeah. [02:21:49.998 – 02:21:52.138] Yeah, and I think that's what a Round Robin does. [02:21:52.138 – 02:21:58.378] That it, it sort of breaks down some of the distance between folk, gives unity.

[02:21:58.378 – 02:22:00.278] You, you address unity kinds of things. [02:22:00.278 – 02:22:01.458] Get to know your neighbor. [02:22:01.458 – 02:22:04.558] It's, it makes it a lot easier to line up speakers. [02:22:04.558 – 02:22:05.288] Mm-hmm. [02:22:05.288 – 02:22:07.578] Because a lot of time when I go there, man, I'm looking for talent. [02:22:07.578 – 02:22:10.898] I'm, I'm I'm gonna get me some speakers when I go there. [02:22:10.898 – 02:22:13.598] And so I, I think they serve a great purpose. [02:22:13.598 – 02:22:16.818] And, and all it takes is just a little communication around a certain circle. [02:22:16.818 – 02:22:17.498] Yeah. [02:22:17.498 – 02:22:18.798] I think they're a, a great thing.

[02:22:18.798 – 02:22:20.918] Great thing, and fairly easy to do. [02:22:20.918 – 02:22:21.718] Yeah. [02:22:21.718 – 02:22:23.488] Thank you very much. [02:22:23.488 – 02:22:23.598] Thank you. [02:22:23.598 – 02:22:24.478] Yeah. [02:22:24.478 – 02:22:25.678] Ooh. [02:22:25.678 – 02:22:27.588] My name is Marina. [02:22:27.588 – 02:22:28.758] I'm an alcoholic. [02:22:28.758 – 02:22:29.608] Welcome. [02:22:29.608 – 02:22:30.937] Thank you, Gary, very much. [02:22:30.937 – 02:22:40.978] Um, I heard, um, I think it was Peggy out on a tape say that there was a period when she was new in sobriety, and the Big Book was not used, and that a lot of the recovery was based on the [02:22:40.978 – 02:22:42.698] "24-Hour a Day" book. [02:22:42.698 – 02:22:44.818] But she never explained why.

[02:22:44.818 – 02:22:49.118] Do you– And I've always been curious, like, w-w- is that in your understanding, too? [02:22:49.118 – 02:22:51.848] And, and if, if it is, what happened? [02:22:51.848 – 02:23:00.838] What happened to the Big Book, and why did it disappear, and how did it come back into, um, existence again with people taking it seriously and using it as a tool? [02:23:00.838 – 02:23:03.638] Let me take one whack at this. [02:23:03.638 – 02:23:04.578] Sandy might, uh… [02:23:04.578 – 02:23:10.518] Yeah, that's, that is right, and I came in at a point when the, the Big Book…

[02:23:10.518 – 02:23:12.878] We love to talk about it. [02:23:12.878 – 02:23:15.158] You know, you talk about the book all the time. [02:23:15.158 – 02:23:17.178] But it wasn't used very much. [02:23:17.178 – 02:23:17.538] Yeah. [02:23:17.538 – 02:23:24.578] And the "24-Hour a Day" book was, uh, it wasn't, it wasn't even looked at as a bootleg piece of material like it is now. [02:23:24.578 – 02:23:25.478] That's… [02:23:25.478 – 02:23:29.818] All they were doing was making up for our absence of it. [02:23:29.818 – 02:23:32.578] It took us, what, forty years to print one. [02:23:32.578 – 02:23:36.278] And, uh, so it served a really useful tool. [02:23:36.278 – 02:23:39.258] It was outside literature, but it was used.

[02:23:39.258 – 02:23:49.318] And part of it, the reason it fit in, now this is just personal bias, but part of the reason it fit in was, as Sandy described this earlier, [02:23:49.318 – 02:23:56.298] we were moving out of a, of a, of a, a fairly religiosity-oriented program. [02:23:56.298 – 02:24:05.378] In our early days, we still were pretty much, uh, you know, right down the line, a lot of old-fashioned religion permeated AA. [02:24:05.378 – 02:24:08.737] And so, the "24-Hour a Day" book fit in very comfortably. [02:24:08.737 – 02:24:10.198] Fit in very comfortably.

[02:24:10.198 – 02:24:17.278] And, uh, some groups still use it to this day in, in, in, in preference to, to other materials. [02:24:17.278 – 02:24:20.857] So I, I don't know why, but it was so popular. [02:24:20.857 – 02:24:23.138] It made a great tool for conducting meetings. [02:24:23.138 – 02:24:25.398] You see a lot of meetings that were used. [02:24:25.398 – 02:24:28.638] A lot of people used it for the daily deals, just like it's intended. [02:24:28.638 – 02:24:30.857] So it was a very, very popular thing. [02:24:30.857 – 02:24:34.478] Big Book wasn't featured much. [02:24:34.478 – 02:24:37.758] And you would hear people talk about it.

[02:24:37.758 – 02:24:39.738] All you gotta do is look at the sales. [02:24:39.738 – 02:24:43.578] Look at the sales, and you can track it, the, the answer to your question. [02:24:43.578 – 02:24:48.318] It wasn't heavily marketed, and the program wasn't heavily used. [02:24:48.318 – 02:24:50.738] There was no such thing as Big Book workshops. [02:24:50.738 – 02:24:53.218] There was no such thing as Big Book studies. [02:24:53.218 – 02:24:57.278] It was just something that was there, mostly used as a doorstop. [02:24:57.278 – 02:25:07.578] And, uh, when you look, the first million– I, I can't remember this precisely, but it took us something

[02:25:07.578 – 02:25:11.218] like thirty years or so to sell a million books. [02:25:11.218 – 02:25:11.998] No, more than that. [02:25:11.998 – 02:25:14.698] But does anybody know right off that? [02:25:14.698 – 02:25:16.598] A long time. [02:25:16.598 – 02:25:17.758] Thirty-five. [02:25:17.758 – 02:25:17.898] Huh? [02:25:17.898 – 02:25:19.368] Seventy-five. [02:25:19.368 – 02:25:19.997] Thirty-five? [02:25:19.997 – 02:25:21.278] Seve- seventy-five. [02:25:21.278 – 02:25:24.438] I can't quite hear, Chris. [02:25:24.438 – 02:25:25.018] Forty years. [02:25:25.018 – 02:25:25.658] Took forty years. [02:25:25.658 – 02:25:26.238] Forty years. [02:25:26.238 – 02:25:27.898] Nixon got the first one. [02:25:27.898 – 02:25:29.418] It take an old person to know that. [02:25:29.418 – 02:25:35.188] It took, took, took forty years to sell a million. [02:25:35.188 – 02:25:41.678] We gave out our twenty-five millionth copy at the International. [02:25:41.678 – 02:25:45.818] The biggest boom to the sale of big books was treatment.

[02:25:45.818 – 02:25:55.758] At one time, I wish it weren't so, but it's so, at one time, the largest consumer of AA material, including the big book, was the Hazelden Corporation. [02:25:55.758 – 02:26:02.018] And so what really led to the, the, the rocketing sales of big books was treatment. [02:26:02.018 – 02:26:06.598] And, uh, they, they referred to the big book as the thirty-thousand-dollar book. [02:26:06.598 – 02:26:10.358] And I don't know. [02:26:10.358 – 02:26:13.578] It's a kind of an interesting history, but i-it's what it does. [02:26:13.578 – 02:26:15.758] It tracks the development of the program.

[02:26:15.758 – 02:26:18.158] Yeah. [02:26:18.158 – 02:26:19.618] Yeah, I got sober with Peggy. [02:26:19.618 – 02:26:23.478] She's a year, ten months ahead of me, but in Washington, DC. [02:26:23.478 – 02:26:24.078] Mm-hmm. [02:26:24.078 – 02:26:28.818] And, uh, I still read the twenty-four-hour day book every day. [02:26:28.818 – 02:26:34.918] Um, but I, but I never bring it to an AA meeting or anything like that. [02:26:34.918 – 02:26:42.618] And, um, the old-timers in DC then talked about putting the plug in the jug and going to meetings. [02:26:42.618 – 02:26:42.668] Mm-hmm. [02:26:42.668 – 02:26:44.398] Put the plug in the jug and go to meetings. [02:26:44.398 – 02:26:45.478] Put the plug in the jug.

[02:26:45.478 – 02:26:47.678] So I had five years, hadn't done any step work. [02:26:47.678 – 02:26:47.998] Yeah. [02:26:47.998 – 02:26:50.858] And then it all started. [02:26:50.858 – 02:26:51.388] Yeah. [02:26:51.388 – 02:27:01.837] And then the transformation took place, and then the light bulb went on inside, and, and you just start radiating, and that's what I believe [02:27:01.837 – 02:27:03.958] is the most important thing to pass on. [02:27:03.958 – 02:27:04.597] Yeah. [02:27:04.597 – 02:27:04.798] Yeah. [02:27:04.798 – 02:27:05.958] You bet. [02:27:05.958 – 02:27:06.778] Okay. [02:27:06.778 – 02:27:07.488] Thank you. [02:27:07.488 – 02:27:08.407] Don Bennett, alcoholic. [02:27:08.407 – 02:27:18.418] And I'm going to mention, uh, past Delegate Panel fifty-three, Area nineteen, Chicago, because this question, uh, and [02:27:18.418 – 02:27:19.898] this is probably a good place to end.

[02:27:19.898 – 02:27:29.998] Uh, and I'm pretty sure Tom, uh, Tom alluded to this this morning, and, uh, it is a fact that hardly anyone ever talks about [02:27:29.998 – 02:27:35.718] or mentions, but I, I know Tom talks about it, and I would not be surprised if Sandy talks about it also. [02:27:35.718 – 02:27:45.518] But almost everyone that comes to Alcoholics Anonymous comes because of the work of one of the service committees of the General Service Conference. [02:27:45.518 – 02:27:49.888] So I would just like you to comment on that, Tom, and, uh, Sandy.

[02:27:49.888 – 02:27:50.138] Yeah. [02:27:50.138 – 02:27:56.608] Well, I think it's a very, very, uh, accurate statement. [02:27:56.608 – 02:28:01.998] If you think about where alcoholics come from, if you look at one of the charts, it'll tell you where they come from. [02:28:01.998 – 02:28:09.638] Every door is one where we do service, like correctional facilities. [02:28:09.638 – 02:28:12.958] You know, you got a lot of people who come into AA out of a correctional facility. [02:28:12.958 – 02:28:17.338] Treatment facility has been the greatest producer for a, for a long time. [02:28:17.338 – 02:28:24.278] Uh, employee assistance programs have always been a heavy producer of AA members.

[02:28:24.278 – 02:28:30.338] At one time, they had forty-seven percent of our new, of our new members were coming out of employee assistance. [02:28:30.338 – 02:28:33.778] Uh, so he's a hundred percent right. [02:28:33.778 – 02:28:41.058] If, if you look at where our service committees are, um, it's the places where we get people from. [02:28:41.058 – 02:28:44.958] And we pretty well covered a community with those things, too, by the way. [02:28:44.958 – 02:28:51.598] Uh, but that's probably no accident that– I don't know if it's a cart before the horse or what, but, but it is a fact.

[02:28:51.598 – 02:29:01.698] And, and it, and when you consider that, that there's so much lacking in terms of full implementation, think about [02:29:01.698 – 02:29:07.518] what a difference we could make with real crackerjack committees working, fostering relationships. [02:29:07.518 – 02:29:12.258] For an awful lot of people, when they're dealing with a drunk, the best they know how to do is that. [02:29:12.258 – 02:29:22.738] And, and so we can make a difference in that, and I, I, I sure hope that, uh, that you guys will, will give serious thought to, to, to ways to, to, to

[02:29:22.738 – 02:29:24.278] foster the development of those things further.