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[00:00:05.180 – 00:00:06.260] Uh, good morning, folks. [00:00:06.260 – 00:00:08.020] Tom, I'm an alcoholic. [00:00:08.020 – 00:00:08.860] Hey, Tom. [00:00:08.860 – 00:00:12.880] I'm a member of the Primary Purpose Group in Southern Pines, North Carolina. [00:00:12.880 – 00:00:19.320] Sobriety date, Groundhog Day of 57, and, uh, I'm delighted to be here. [00:00:19.320 – 00:00:22.100] It's great to see you, and I'm hoping we're gonna have a decent day. [00:00:22.100 – 00:00:23.640] Yeah. [00:00:23.640 – 00:00:29.670] When you see a guy coming that's gonna talk to a crowd, and he brings his own Kleenex- … [00:00:29.670 – 00:00:31.240] you know you're in for a tearjerker. [00:00:31.240 – 00:00:36.600] Now, I brought a little…

[00:00:36.600 – 00:00:37.420] Give you a little warning. [00:00:37.420 – 00:00:45.530] I brought a, a bug with me, and, uh, so that's for in case the irrigation breaks loose, that, uh- … [00:00:45.530 – 00:00:46.480] that's what that's for. [00:00:46.480 – 00:00:49.780] And, uh, so don't get too close. [00:00:49.780 – 00:00:54.170] Uh, I mean, I don't mind just slight kiss on the cheek, but- … [00:00:54.170 – 00:00:55.680] just be, be, be aware. [00:00:55.680 – 00:01:01.900] Um, it- d- I am really glad to be here and glad to see us spending this time. [00:01:01.900 – 00:01:05.140] The last time noted… [00:01:05.140 – 00:01:11.140] Now, usually when I take folks through the book, you're looking at the first time I ever did it was a year and a half.

[00:01:11.140 – 00:01:18.600] And, uh, next time I got it down to a year, and I struggled to get it below that. [00:01:18.600 – 00:01:21.750] So I seriously doubt if we're gonna go through the book- … [00:01:21.750 – 00:01:24.240] yeah, here in the time we've got this weekend. [00:01:24.240 – 00:01:25.150] Yeah. [00:01:25.150 – 00:01:33.720] What we'll do is base what we do in the book, but, but we're not gonna, uh, do a lot of teaching and, uh, researching and stuff like that. [00:01:33.720 – 00:01:40.940] Now everybody here is able to read I, I, I'm pretty sure, so we're not gonna, we're not gonna beat you over the head with the book.

[00:01:40.940 – 00:01:46.940] We're basically gonna, gonna focus on the steps and then relate it to the book. [00:01:46.940 – 00:01:57.000] So, um, yeah, one of the things I always kind of worry about is that, uh, I think Steve said it well last night [00:01:57.000 – 00:01:58.400] as he quoted Dr. [00:01:58.400 – 00:02:03.760] Bob with that what is it that, that makes this connection occur that we call Alcoholics Anonymous? [00:02:03.760 – 00:02:06.720] And it's the sharing of experience. [00:02:06.720 – 00:02:15.000] It's, it's, it's, it's recognizing that, that, that folks here are my folks, and that I fit, and I connect with people here.

[00:02:15.000 – 00:02:16.900] That's awfully important. [00:02:16.900 – 00:02:27.460] And how I get a little concerned sometimes that we spend so much time studying the book that we almost deify it, make it something like the Holy Grail, [00:02:27.460 – 00:02:28.540] and it's just a book. [00:02:28.540 – 00:02:29.660] It's, it's what it is. [00:02:29.660 – 00:02:31.940] It's the group of alcoholics that… [00:02:31.940 – 00:02:33.700] I tell you, you wouldn't… [00:02:33.700 – 00:02:43.820] It, it, it really probably wouldn't be very productive to take a hard look at the production of the book because the first edition [00:02:43.820 – 00:02:52.340] was written, the longest sobriety in the group was three years, and we had guys with about 30 minutes of sobriety helping write the book.

[00:02:52.340 – 00:02:55.960] They probably weren't contributing a lot, but they were probably making a lot of noise. [00:02:55.960 – 00:02:59.880] And so you probably don't wanna research that too much. [00:02:59.880 – 00:03:07.160] It– The thing that makes that book tremendously important is that it's everything in there is based on experience. [00:03:07.160 – 00:03:09.680] Nothing is theoretical in design. [00:03:09.680 – 00:03:11.060] It's all based on experience. [00:03:11.060 – 00:03:21.670] And so, uh, when, when I– we get into too much teaching in Alcoholics Anonymous, it looks to me like we, we drift away from that,

[00:03:21.670 – 00:03:24.470] that fundamental connection of one alcoholic reaching another. [00:03:24.470 – 00:03:30.040] And so I'm, I'm a little wary about getting, uh, too educational in approach to this thing. [00:03:30.040 – 00:03:32.420] I think it moves away from the, the real purpose. [00:03:32.420 – 00:03:42.420] Uh, what, what we'll do this, this, uh, this weekend, we'll try to do our part to make it as productive as [00:03:42.420 – 00:03:42.940] we can. [00:03:42.940 – 00:03:47.000] And if you do the same, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll probably come out with a winner. [00:03:47.000 – 00:03:55.040] And, uh, what I've found is that the more involved you get in something, the better it turns out to be.

[00:03:55.040 – 00:03:58.000] And so we don't wanna just throw words at you. [00:03:58.000 – 00:03:59.560] Bless you. [00:03:59.560 – 00:03:59.880] You… [00:03:59.880 – 00:04:05.030] I've got Kleenex right here if, if you I inhaled it. [00:04:05.030 – 00:04:06.320] Oh. [00:04:06.320 – 00:04:09.100] Speaking of which. [00:04:09.100 – 00:04:19.159] Um, so what we, what we've got it set up to do here, we've got a split in the, a split vote between the two [00:04:19.160 – 00:04:21.940] participants here that are gonna be leading this thing. [00:04:21.940 – 00:04:25.800] I'm a sit down guy, and he's a stand up guy. [00:04:25.800 – 00:04:28.240] So we're equipped to do both. [00:04:28.240 – 00:04:31.640] Uh, we'll, we'll see how committed he is to standing up.

[00:04:31.640 – 00:04:38.120] But, but what we're gonna do is basically we're gonna Mutt and Jeff this thing or Huntley-Brinkley if you're old enough to remember those. [00:04:38.120 – 00:04:40.640] We'll, we'll do a Huntley-Brinkley. [00:04:40.640 – 00:04:44.860] And it won't be, won't, won't be, uh, crisp, cut off at the… [00:04:44.860 – 00:04:47.700] If, if he gets inspired, he'll just butt in. [00:04:47.700 – 00:04:50.400] And of course, I'm a gentleman, I wouldn't do that. [00:04:50.400 – 00:04:55.910] But we hope you'll do the same. [00:04:55.910 – 00:04:58.240] And so we're equipped. [00:04:58.240 – 00:05:03.900] We're equipped thanks to Jerry and Jill and, and their high-tech stuff.

[00:05:03.900 – 00:05:08.440] We've got a walk-in mic somewhere. [00:05:08.440 – 00:05:10.930] It's right behind you. [00:05:10.930 – 00:05:10.930] This? [00:05:10.930 – 00:05:11.480] Oh, here. [00:05:11.480 – 00:05:12.200] Good God. [00:05:12.200 – 00:05:14.980] That's a walk-in mic. [00:05:14.980 – 00:05:17.360] And what … [00:05:17.360 – 00:05:22.020] Well, I'm hoping that this is not gonna be Coughing 101. [00:05:22.020 – 00:05:25.420] But I'm off to a good start with it. [00:05:25.420 – 00:05:36.220] What I'm hoping we'll do as we go along is be as informal as we, as we can and, [00:05:36.220 – 00:05:39.440] uh, and as interactive as we can. [00:05:39.440 – 00:05:47.940] And I've come to believe, in fact, I was taught and I've come to believe that, that the communication is a, is a tricky thing.

[00:05:47.940 – 00:05:58.900] When you do one, one directional type of communication, like me just talking to, to you as a group, two [00:05:58.900 – 00:06:03.430] weeks later you probably wouldn't remember 2% of what happened. [00:06:03.430 – 00:06:08.320] It's just that, that, that type of communication is just not very effective. [00:06:08.320 – 00:06:18.080] You know, it's fun while it's going on, but then when you try to recall, uh, by the time you get off the island, you almost forget what the title of the workshop was, you know? [00:06:18.080 – 00:06:23.260] So, and, uh, so I, I'm not a great believer in the, in the teach and preachin' approach.

[00:06:23.260 – 00:06:25.380] Really like interactive stuff. [00:06:25.380 – 00:06:29.820] And it's based on the fact of, of, of the effectiveness of the way we do it. [00:06:29.820 – 00:06:39.910] That if you get a, a, a 2% retention rate with, uh, the one-way deal, what happens if it's interactive is, uh, what I was taught is it'll [00:06:39.910 – 00:06:46.500] go up to around, anywhere around some, hover around 40% retention if it's interactive. [00:06:46.500 – 00:06:51.860] And then if you get involved in the production and delivery of it, it'll go up over 80%.

[00:06:51.860 – 00:06:54.020] So communication is a strange thing. [00:06:54.020 – 00:06:58.940] It, it, it needs to be c- connected to, to, uh, active participation in the process. [00:06:58.940 – 00:07:00.360] So that's what we wanna do. [00:07:00.360 – 00:07:10.440] The way I look at it, we're a bunch of folks that, that have elected to just come down to the island, take a little time [00:07:10.440 – 00:07:20.580] out, and, uh, congregate with some people that, that are like us, and, and see if we can't grow in, in our own spiritual life, grow

[00:07:20.580 – 00:07:25.350] in our own recoveries, and, uh, become stronger, more effective members. [00:07:25.350 – 00:07:27.300] I, I think is essentially what we're about. [00:07:27.300 – 00:07:36.330] And so in the spirit of that, um, as we go along, at any point, uh, I'm notorious for saying that would… [00:07:36.330 – 00:07:41.190] I'd like participation, and then I get going so hard that I, that you'd have a, have to… [00:07:41.190 – 00:07:44.100] It's almost like stopping a runaway train to get anything in. [00:07:44.100 – 00:07:46.540] So go ahead and stop the train, you know, if it…

[00:07:46.540 – 00:07:50.260] Now he's a lot more thoughtful and introspective than me. [00:07:50.260 – 00:08:00.680] But if at any time, if you've got something you wanna, you wanna add to the conversation or, or question or challenge or whatever, uh, do that, [00:08:00.680 – 00:08:07.400] and then what we have to do is, is, is to use the walk-in mic and come out to you, and we'll meet you halfway or whatever. [00:08:07.400 – 00:08:17.640] But do that because that's, as you probably are well aware now, as much as we record AA stuff now, that, uh, uh…

[00:08:17.640 – 00:08:27.840] I don't know of anything more frustrating than listening to a CD that's got questions, um, yeah, answers to no question. [00:08:27.840 – 00:08:30.020] And they try to figure out. [00:08:30.020 – 00:08:31.280] It's like the Big Bang Theory. [00:08:31.280 – 00:08:32.540] How do you make this thing fit? [00:08:32.540 – 00:08:34.840] And it doesn't, is what it is. [00:08:34.840 – 00:08:39.420] So if you got something, if you just give me, give us a signal, then we'll come, we'll bring the mic out, and then we'll do it. [00:08:39.420 – 00:08:40.480] So don't hesitate. [00:08:40.480 – 00:08:42.400] By all means, uh, uh, jump in on that.

[00:08:42.400 – 00:08:43.900] We'd like it very much. [00:08:43.900 – 00:08:51.220] Um, what we're gonna basically do is frame around the steps, and we'll, we'll include the book. [00:08:51.220 – 00:08:52.620] But we… [00:08:52.620 – 00:08:56.980] And, and, but when we'll reference whatever we're talking about so that it'd be easy to find, that kind of stuff. [00:08:56.980 – 00:09:02.280] Uh, but what we wanna do is, uh, is, is, is deal with groups of steps. [00:09:02.280 – 00:09:12.280] And, um, and this morning, what we'll try to do is, is deal with the first three steps, yeah, that are the f- the foundation for

[00:09:12.280 – 00:09:13.200] recovery for me. [00:09:13.200 – 00:09:19.480] The, uh, personally, I, I, d- I don't think there's so much about recovery as the foundation. [00:09:19.480 – 00:09:25.900] They're the steps that stop the bleeding and give us a place to, uh, to, uh, have safe harbor. [00:09:25.900 – 00:09:33.740] And, uh, a- a- a- they don't necessarily get into the restoration stuff and all the things that come in the latter stage, stage of the steps. [00:09:33.740 – 00:09:36.380] But very, very critically important steps. [00:09:36.380 – 00:09:39.840] And the one thing about AA- … [00:09:39.840 – 00:09:43.420] that I think, uh, I always want to keep in mind- …

[00:09:43.420 – 00:09:50.100] is in AA, we don't have monitors who, who give out pass and fail, uh, in- information. [00:09:50.100 – 00:09:55.460] In this program, we stop, we stop anywhere we want to. [00:09:55.460 – 00:09:59.760] And we can stop at whatever we're willing to settle for. [00:09:59.760 – 00:10:07.300] I know people who have never pretended to do any steps, who have stayed sober. [00:10:07.300 – 00:10:14.240] And if that's all you want to do is just not drink and survive, that's a one, one way to do it. [00:10:14.240 – 00:10:15.880] I've seen it done.

[00:10:15.880 – 00:10:22.360] I know people who've done the first three steps, period, and done no more, pretended to do no more. [00:10:22.360 – 00:10:27.560] So we have the latitude to stop at whatever we're willing to settle for. [00:10:27.560 – 00:10:33.220] And if I'm willing to just settle for survival and being able to not drink… [00:10:33.220 – 00:10:39.300] My buddy said it last night that, that we see more suicides in- [00:10:39.448 – 00:10:45.868] Early recovery, uh, and sometimes later on recovery than we do in active alcoholism. [00:10:45.868 – 00:10:55.988] And when you start to understand active alcoholism and the, and the, and the function of alcohol to deaden the pain, it starts to make sense of why that starts to happen.

[00:10:55.988 – 00:11:05.308] And so getting into the program and, and not having the full impact of the steps is a, is a, is a, is a dangerous kind of a trap. [00:11:05.308 – 00:11:09.648] I wanna use one thing to, to, to sort of get us rolling a little bit. [00:11:09.648 – 00:11:15.848] It's kind of a morbid thing in a way, but it's a reality thing. [00:11:15.848 – 00:11:26.188] And rather than me just philosophize about it, I think it really sets a base for why what we're doing here this weekend is important, why it's important

[00:11:26.188 – 00:11:30.188] to dig into the steps and to grow in the steps and to, and to do all of the steps. [00:11:30.188 – 00:11:37.928] And it's, uh, I think this thing is getting circulated a little bit. [00:11:37.928 – 00:11:47.108] Y- you one reason I didn't buy, didn't buy a computer for a long, well, for a long time, uh, somebody in the office did it, and I didn't have any need to. [00:11:47.108 – 00:11:49.968] Had one sitting on my desk, but I didn't know what to do with it.

[00:11:49.968 – 00:11:52.568] I didn't even know how to turn it on or have any interest in learning. [00:11:52.568 – 00:12:00.788] And, uh, then when I retired, I found out that, my God, you know, there really is some service to be had in that thing. [00:12:00.788 – 00:12:01.688] I got… [00:12:01.688 – 00:12:11.008] I was, I was elected state chair for, area chair for, uh, uh, the corrections ser- service in our state when I retired. [00:12:11.008 – 00:12:14.378] And, uh, I got so tired of licking stamps. [00:12:14.378 – 00:12:24.468] God knows, my, my tongue was a yard long from licking stamps and stuffing envelopes and, and about broke from all of my Social Security about

[00:12:24.468 – 00:12:25.978] gone for, uh, buying stamps. [00:12:25.978 – 00:12:33.488] And so I, I, and I looked at the magic world of computers and got one, and I guarantee you, brother, I love it. [00:12:33.488 – 00:12:34.868] I flat love it. [00:12:34.868 – 00:12:39.028] And I can take care of a complete mailing in less than five minutes. [00:12:39.028 – 00:12:41.408] And I tell you what, I'm for that. [00:12:41.408 – 00:12:44.988] And, uh, so but you get a lot of stuff in, you know. [00:12:44.988 – 00:12:46.318] And some … [00:12:46.318 – 00:12:47.568] Well, it's… [00:12:47.568 – 00:12:49.418] Well, if you've got a computer, you know what I'm talking about.

[00:12:49.418 – 00:12:50.677] I don't need to tell you. [00:12:50.677 – 00:12:56.348] You get loaded down with good God everything from how to get rich to how to fall in love to… [00:12:56.348 – 00:13:01.248] Anyway, there's a bunch of stuff on it and- Once in a while something useful. [00:13:01.248 – 00:13:11.368] And I got a thing in the, in a while back that really struck me, and it struck me in, in a galvanizing kind of way about what [00:13:11.368 – 00:13:17.488] I was just sort of bouncing around with that, uh, of what happens when we don't do the whole program.

[00:13:17.488 – 00:13:24.248] What is it that, uh, what does it look like when we see one of these survival cases that just drops off the deep end? [00:13:24.248 – 00:13:31.128] And if you think about it a minute, you, uh, I think you can frame in your own mind what we're talking about. [00:13:31.128 – 00:13:38.908] You know, many times you go to a meeting, and you'll see people that are literally dead people walking. [00:13:38.908 – 00:13:42.348] They're still moving, but they're dead. [00:13:42.348 – 00:13:43.708] Their eyes are dead. [00:13:43.708 – 00:13:44.928] Their movements are dead.

[00:13:44.928 – 00:13:47.128] They sort of hang back, you know. [00:13:47.128 – 00:13:50.008] They don't get in- engaged in the activity. [00:13:50.008 – 00:13:52.428] They're just folks that are surviving. [00:13:52.428 – 00:13:59.448] And, uh, and this little thing I w- I wanna share with you is about just such a thing. [00:13:59.448 – 00:14:02.708] This is a story of a guy, he was a… [00:14:02.708 – 00:14:06.808] who, who had a friend who took the, the deep six route. [00:14:06.808 – 00:14:14.228] And, uh, he, he wrote this not as an article but just sort of his way of saying what he wanted to say.

[00:14:14.228 – 00:14:16.188] And here, here's what he wrote. [00:14:16.188 – 00:14:19.128] He said, "We buried him yesterday. [00:14:19.128 – 00:14:26.768] The county coroner had published the required notices for next of kin, and nobody had claimed the body. [00:14:26.768 – 00:14:29.648] It was just myself and his sponsor. [00:14:29.648 – 00:14:31.608] No preacher even. [00:14:31.608 – 00:14:33.218] The county doesn't pay for that. [00:14:33.218 – 00:14:39.948] Not much of a send-off, and not the one David had asked for." He was the guy that, that was going down. [00:14:39.948 – 00:14:41.828] "Not the one David had asked for. [00:14:41.828 – 00:14:43.468] A cheap coffin. [00:14:43.468 – 00:14:46.748] A backhoe dug a hole, and that was it.

[00:14:46.748 – 00:14:49.328] Just another old AA gone. [00:14:49.328 – 00:14:59.367] He'd been sober…" This is kind of a little bit of a misstatement, but, "He'd been sober over 20 years and first tried AA over [00:14:59.367 – 00:15:00.288] 30 years ago. [00:15:00.288 – 00:15:07.508] A stern and rigid man who tried to soften his edges and never could. [00:15:07.508 – 00:15:17.608] He was a loner, a fringer, an isolated man at the edges of the good li– uh, the, of the good things, of the good [00:15:17.608 – 00:15:17.908] things. [00:15:17.908 – 00:15:21.428] He hung in there, and in the end, he hung himself.

[00:15:21.428 – 00:15:23.478] I don't know why. [00:15:23.478 – 00:15:24.368] I can't know. [00:15:24.368 – 00:15:34.368] I know there had been a diagnosis of, of senile dementia, and I know that the doctor had added cancer to the list, but I've seen AAs deal [00:15:34.368 – 00:15:35.948] with th- such things before. [00:15:35.948 – 00:15:38.648] I don't know why David decided he couldn't. [00:15:38.648 – 00:15:42.748] It isn't the first time I've been through this in Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:15:42.748 – 00:15:49.268] I've known several over the years who have, who, who just up and walked out life's door one day. [00:15:49.268 – 00:15:51.688] Sober, but not happy.

[00:15:51.688 – 00:15:54.288] Sober, but not at peace. [00:15:54.288 – 00:15:59.908] Sober, but they died of alcoholism." Say it one more time. [00:15:59.908 – 00:16:04.888] "Sober, but they died of alcoholism." Not drinking, of alcoholism. [00:16:04.888 – 00:16:11.468] "Our disease doesn't need us to drink in order to kill us. [00:16:11.468 – 00:16:17.128] I wish more folks knew that and appreciated it. [00:16:17.128 – 00:16:27.528] Alcoholism is the only disease that is entirely capable of fighting back, of taking care of itself, and of emerging in new places and new…" [00:16:27.528 – 00:16:31.148] Y'all got all light. [00:16:31.148 – 00:16:31.808] I don't have… [00:16:31.808 – 00:16:32.887] This…

[00:16:32.887 – 00:16:42.708] "And emerging in, in, uh, in new places and new forms when it isn't properly treated." That's because of the spiritual malady. [00:16:42.708 – 00:16:50.220] "Most people- Think they think that has something to do with prayer or with God. [00:16:50.220 – 00:16:50.819] It doesn't. [00:16:50.819 – 00:16:53.480] It has to do with our spirit. [00:16:53.480 – 00:17:03.920] That force which animates, m-uh, [00:17:03.920 – 00:17:07.600] motivates and propel– Will you come read the rest of this? [00:17:07.600 – 00:17:08.700] Sure. [00:17:08.700 – 00:17:10.880] I was too vain to bring my glasses. [00:17:10.880 – 00:17:13.400] Maybe he'll start treating me a little better. [00:17:13.400 – 00:17:16.460] Well, I- He's talking about me like a dog back there at the house.

[00:17:16.460 – 00:17:18.520] My name's Steve Mitchell. [00:17:18.520 – 00:17:19.260] I'm an alcoholic. [00:17:19.260 – 00:17:19.810] Hi, Steve. [00:17:19.810 – 00:17:23.680] And, uh, if you weren't here last night, I'm a member of the Principals Group of Alcoholics Anonymous in Raleigh. [00:17:23.680 – 00:17:28.390] My sobriety date is May twenty-six, nineteen seventy-five, and it's good to see you again this morning. [00:17:28.390 – 00:17:30.810] It's good to be able to be seen and be moving around. [00:17:30.810 – 00:17:34.280] As an alcoholic, my spirit is ill. [00:17:34.280 – 00:17:35.320] It is flawed. [00:17:35.320 – 00:17:38.820] My character or basic nature doesn't work right. [00:17:38.820 – 00:17:45.080] At its root, it is a fundamental and unresolvable insecurity, a hole that can never be filled.

[00:17:45.080 – 00:17:50.820] It is instinct run rampant, a desperate need for acceptance and love that cannot be met. [00:17:50.820 – 00:17:52.040] It hurts. [00:17:52.040 – 00:17:53.920] It fills one with fear. [00:17:53.920 – 00:17:57.480] The selfishness and self-centeredness of the alcoholic lies here. [00:17:57.480 – 00:18:02.600] We are totally preoccupied with what is going on with ourselves on the inside. [00:18:02.600 – 00:18:12.680] The slings and arrows of life experience are warped by this need in ourselves and drives us to the fringe, and the voices of the committee [00:18:12.680 – 00:18:14.440] in our head keep us there. [00:18:14.440 – 00:18:20.840] We are obsessed with self and from this condition of mind, the insanity of feelings gone haywire.

[00:18:20.840 – 00:18:23.800] We become self-medicators eventually. [00:18:23.800 – 00:18:31.460] We discover alcohol or something else, and the stuff quiets the voices, provides the relief we've never been able to find in any other way. [00:18:31.460 – 00:18:35.220] Is it any wonder we drink or drug the way we do? [00:18:35.220 – 00:18:37.020] And some of us don't develop an addiction. [00:18:37.020 – 00:18:47.160] In attempting to meet these crying demands of our spirit, we become ill, and we develop other malformations of [00:18:47.160 – 00:18:49.520] behavior and suffer in a hundred different ways. [00:18:49.520 – 00:18:55.640] God broke David's obsession to drink, but I don't think David ever truly understood his disease.

[00:18:55.640 – 00:19:01.340] I say that because I watched him struggle with those unresolved issues of his heart for years. [00:19:01.340 – 00:19:11.520] His rigidity, coldness, aloofness, isolation, and difficulty with other people were a reflection of the pain in his heart, of the disease of alcoholism gone deep [00:19:11.520 – 00:19:13.560] inside, still active. [00:19:13.560 – 00:19:20.080] Alcoholism didn't need David to drink in order to continue trying to kill him, and in the end, it succeeded. [00:19:20.080 – 00:19:26.300] In the end, instead of self-abandoning, David had abandoned hope and discovered a bitter end.

[00:19:26.300 – 00:19:31.040] Our recovery from alcoholism through the steps must be a threefold process. [00:19:31.040 – 00:19:32.220] It is not one-dimensional. [00:19:32.220 – 00:19:38.760] When we say in AA that we have a triangle, recovery, unity, service, we mean it. [00:19:38.760 – 00:19:48.760] In working the steps, I clear a pathway for two purposes: first, to come into a group of human people and away from the fringes of society where I've spent most of my emotional [00:19:48.760 – 00:19:49.140] life. [00:19:49.140 – 00:19:54.000] Secondly, to discover belonging through service to the people within that group. [00:19:54.000 – 00:19:57.920] It is only this entire threefold process that heals.

[00:19:57.920 – 00:20:03.620] It is especially true for those of us who suffer from the spiritual malady to a great degree. [00:20:03.620 – 00:20:13.620] Perhaps the twelfth step says it best, "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, recovery, we tried to [00:20:13.620 – 00:20:21.180] carry this message to alcoholics, service, and practice these principles in all our affairs, unity." You see, I can't hold back. [00:20:21.180 – 00:20:27.040] I must not continue to suffer that shyness, aloneness, that overwhelming sense of self in my affairs. [00:20:27.040 – 00:20:31.420] I must get involved in a group of people to practice these principles in all my affairs.

[00:20:31.420 – 00:20:34.820] Only the true approach is healing. [00:20:34.820 – 00:20:41.300] Anything less is little more than driving my disease deep, and if I do that, it will continue to eat away, trying to destroy me. [00:20:41.300 – 00:20:42.620] It destroyed David. [00:20:42.620 – 00:20:50.780] This is a memorial to an old AA friend who gave his best shot, and I think ended, ended it up on the plus side. [00:20:50.780 – 00:20:52.660] It wasn't his fault. [00:20:52.660 – 00:20:54.240] He seemed to have been born that way. [00:20:54.240 – 00:20:59.400] There were a lot of old ideas about self that David could never muster the willingness to let go of.

[00:20:59.400 – 00:21:00.420] He is at rest now. [00:21:00.420 – 00:21:08.639] But it says some-someone, somewhere that no matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see our experience can benefit others. [00:21:08.639 – 00:21:10.800] David can't speak to his experience any longer. [00:21:10.800 – 00:21:12.200] I'm speaking in his memory. [00:21:12.200 – 00:21:18.620] And I think that if David could talk today, he'd say, "Understand your disease thoroughly and work the program [00:21:18.743 – 00:21:20.003] completely in recovery. [00:21:20.003 – 00:21:22.103] We buried him yesterday. [00:21:22.103 – 00:21:25.203] Oh, that's a start over, yeah. [00:21:25.203 – 00:21:25.783] Thank you. [00:21:25.783 – 00:21:26.802] Good. [00:21:26.802 – 00:21:28.263] Thank you very much.

[00:21:28.263 – 00:21:34.383] Well, that is a kind of a morbid way to start a, start a meeting. [00:21:34.383 – 00:21:39.243] But it's also a reality check because what we're dealing with is a tough illness. [00:21:39.243 – 00:21:45.043] Is we're not dealing with one that's gonna yield to just some, uh, uh, superficial activities. [00:21:45.043 – 00:21:47.783] It takes some, some really deep stuff. [00:21:47.783 – 00:21:57.983] And, uh, and I, I, I hope you've thought about, you know, I gave you that cue a little about, about, about how you see this in the people that you interact with in,

[00:21:57.983 – 00:21:59.963] in, in your home group or in your area. [00:21:59.963 – 00:22:10.003] That, uh, you know, I guess one reason that this has a, a lot of impact on me is I've, I've, I've seen far [00:22:10.003 – 00:22:13.323] too many cases just like this, just like this. [00:22:13.323 – 00:22:16.603] And, uh, and I, I don't like seeing those cases. [00:22:16.603 – 00:22:24.582] I don't, I don't like seeing people come in and get a, a tantalizing taste of this thing and then lose it and just wander off. [00:22:24.582 – 00:22:26.783] And, and then often wind up…

[00:22:26.783 – 00:22:37.413] We have a young, young lady in our group, in my home group that, uh, has a– uh, had a brother, 30 years old, who did exactly [00:22:37.413 – 00:22:39.983] what David did just about three months ago. [00:22:39.983 – 00:22:40.483] Exactly. [00:22:40.483 – 00:22:43.403] 30, 30, 30-year-old young fella. [00:22:43.403 – 00:22:50.963] And, uh, his, his dad, a recovered alcoholic, is, is, is more than 30 years sober. [00:22:50.963 – 00:23:00.043] And, you know, here's a guy that's got all of the information he could possibly get and all of the inspiration as far as what's happened to other people.

[00:23:00.043 – 00:23:06.183] But, but apparently he was lacking that thing that brings about the re- the true recovery. [00:23:06.183 – 00:23:09.623] And, and so it i- it's, uh, it's interesting. [00:23:09.623 – 00:23:17.483] I'll just share just a, just, uh, some of the, uh, things that I've, I've run into with this thing, uh, that, that far too often. [00:23:17.483 – 00:23:23.503] Um, had a guy one, at one time walked into our group. [00:23:23.503 – 00:23:26.903] Now I'm a, I'm a door watcher type of guy, you know? [00:23:26.903 – 00:23:30.503] I, I like to watch, and what I'm looking for is fresh meat.

[00:23:30.503 – 00:23:40.563] That's so I– anybody that looks like the deer in the headlights type of thing or who's new and obviously new, uh, I'm gonna get on [00:23:40.563 – 00:23:42.963] them in a heartbeat if I can get to them. [00:23:42.963 – 00:23:45.963] And, uh, I had one guy came in one night. [00:23:45.963 – 00:23:46.863] I think he knew me. [00:23:46.863 – 00:23:50.843] Uh, I didn't know him, but I think he knew me by reputation or something. [00:23:50.843 – 00:23:56.463] And I saw him come in, and I started over there, and he, and he s- bolted out the door.

[00:23:56.463 – 00:24:01.623] And I thought, "Well, what the hell is wrong with this fool?" Well, I went out right behind him. [00:24:01.623 – 00:24:10.403] And so I'm chasing him around the church where we met, and we're ducking in and out of shrubbery and- And he's, he was fast on his feet. [00:24:10.403 – 00:24:20.512] And, uh, I th– Later I thought, "My God, I hope nobody videoed that and sent it." "Here's how AA works," [00:24:20.512 – 00:24:20.723] you know? [00:24:20.723 – 00:24:25.693] That is, that is not one of my proud moments.

[00:24:25.693 – 00:24:27.063] I just got a little carried away. [00:24:27.063 – 00:24:33.703] And, uh, and he was fast of foot, but he got away and, uh, never could catch him. [00:24:33.703 – 00:24:37.903] And, uh, and but he, but he wound up doing exactly this. [00:24:37.903 – 00:24:48.503] And, and then when I, I learned who he really was, that he, he was a guy that I'd seen, and he was just one of those casual guys that's just kind of like, like a hummingbird that just [00:24:48.503 – 00:24:53.423] go from one thing to another, sucking a little sap, you know, to get by and, and moving on.

[00:24:53.423 – 00:25:00.523] And he wound up, no more than two or three months after our chase, uh, shooting himself in his kitchen. [00:25:00.523 – 00:25:00.863] Yeah. [00:25:00.863 – 00:25:06.023] To, uh, that's a, it's a tough kind of a situation that you see all too often. [00:25:06.023 – 00:25:14.523] I, I was on door duty one night, self-appointed- -watching the, watching for foot traffic and saw a guy come in. [00:25:14.523 – 00:25:18.983] And, um, I mean, he, he's one you could just spot. [00:25:18.983 – 00:25:22.123] I, I knew him somewhat, you know. [00:25:22.123 – 00:25:25.463] Like, you know folks just socially, hi, how you doing type level.

[00:25:25.463 – 00:25:34.843] And, and he was one of those guys that he, he was the, the– just that type of guy who just never did anchor anywhere. [00:25:34.843 – 00:25:38.923] He just floated around and visited AA in a bun- bunch of places. [00:25:38.923 – 00:25:48.923] And while, you know, I live in a little town, we've got over 30 meetings, uh, 30 different places that people meet in m- in our, [00:25:48.923 – 00:25:49.763] our little town. [00:25:49.763 – 00:25:58.223] You know, I just said one time if, if somebody rang a big bell and said, "Everybody report to your home group," I think we'd have an awful lot of empty buildings.

[00:25:58.223 – 00:26:06.323] Because what we really got is a bunch of nomads that just sort of wander around from one to another and never really anchor anywhere. [00:26:06.323 – 00:26:10.863] And, uh, and so this guy was o- one of that type. [00:26:10.863 – 00:26:12.343] He was 16 years sober. [00:26:12.343 – 00:26:15.623] And, uh, I watched him come in. [00:26:15.623 – 00:26:17.943] Now, you talk about a dead man walking. [00:26:17.943 – 00:26:19.383] He was it personified. [00:26:19.383 – 00:26:22.423] Uh, he came in with that sort of hang dog look. [00:26:22.423 – 00:26:28.943] I mean, he never looks like the, the, uh, Energizer Bunny, but but he was just hang dog.

[00:26:28.943 – 00:26:29.733] You, you know what I'm talking about? [00:26:29.733 – 00:26:31.423] He was just a dead looking guy. [00:26:31.423 – 00:26:32.203] He wandered in. [00:26:32.203 – 00:26:42.663] So I went over and- Hey, I, I'd get a little goofy sometime, but you gotta have a little sensitivity in dealing with people and knowing when to push and when to pat, you know, and [00:26:42.663 – 00:26:43.243] this kind of stuff. [00:26:43.243 – 00:26:46.103] Just if you don't, you know, you can do a lot of damage. [00:26:46.103 – 00:26:50.103] And so I, I recognized that he was a, a kind of a fragile guy.

[00:26:50.103 – 00:26:52.443] Uh, he wouldn't want, he wouldn't want you to know that. [00:26:52.443 – 00:26:56.183] And he did everything he possibly could do to prove that wasn't so. [00:26:56.183 – 00:26:58.003] He had a language like an open sewer. [00:26:58.003 – 00:27:04.323] And, uh- Well, anyway, he, he, he just was the kind of guy that… [00:27:04.323 – 00:27:06.843] So I just went over and I was kind of gentle with him. [00:27:06.843 – 00:27:08.543] I bought him a cup of free coffee. [00:27:08.543 – 00:27:13.103] And, uh, and, uh, let him know he was welcome. [00:27:13.103 – 00:27:18.503] And, uh, just, just sort of howdy-dooed him a little bit.

[00:27:18.503 – 00:27:22.707] Well, now he always sat on the back row. [00:27:22.707 – 00:27:25.027] Uh, no offense to back row folk. [00:27:25.027 – 00:27:26.687] That's where the spiritual power… [00:27:26.687 – 00:27:27.967] You see where Mary Kay is. [00:27:27.967 – 00:27:33.207] She any further back, she'd be in Charleston, nigga. [00:27:33.207 – 00:27:37.227] A lot of spiritual power on the back row. [00:27:37.227 – 00:27:39.227] But he was a back row guy. [00:27:39.227 – 00:27:46.306] Uh, and, and, uh, so he, when, when I patted on him a little bit, he followed me, and I'm a front row guy. [00:27:46.306 – 00:27:51.047] Mine's not because of avid interest.

[00:27:51.047 – 00:27:52.327] I can't hear. [00:27:52.327 – 00:27:55.227] I, I, so I get close so they can… [00:27:55.227 – 00:27:58.967] Even if they spray on me sometimes, I, I still get close. [00:27:58.967 – 00:28:05.086] And so he came up there, sat with me, you know, just like a little kid. [00:28:05.086 – 00:28:09.107] And, uh, kept doing it. [00:28:09.107 – 00:28:11.227] Every time I'd move, he'd move. [00:28:11.227 – 00:28:15.187] And, uh, it's funny how people will respond to something. [00:28:15.187 – 00:28:20.247] Just a simple little thing like, you know, just a g- general touch and a welcome, you know? [00:28:20.247 – 00:28:21.347] Funny how people respond.

[00:28:21.347 – 00:28:29.147] And, and so he started following me around, and, and, um, I noticed that he would cry about anything. [00:28:29.147 – 00:28:33.107] I mean, my God, you could read the steps, and he'd start crying, you know? [00:28:33.107 – 00:28:37.547] I, I, I saw a while later, I don't think he'd ever visited them, you know? [00:28:37.547 – 00:28:41.807] He sounded, cried in loss of what might have been maybe. [00:28:41.807 – 00:28:45.847] But, but he was a, he was a very fragile guy, obviously. [00:28:45.847 – 00:28:45.877] Mm-hmm. [00:28:45.877 – 00:28:52.947] And, uh, so we messed around a little while and he said, he said, "I'd like to get involved.

[00:28:52.947 – 00:28:54.827] I don't know what to do." I said, "Well, that's easy, man. [00:28:54.827 – 00:28:58.247] Go to prison with me." He said, "Can I go?" I said, "Yeah, you can go. [00:28:58.247 – 00:29:00.127] Might even leave you." I… [00:29:00.127 – 00:29:03.067] But, but he went. [00:29:03.067 – 00:29:09.837] Now, he was a guy with deep pockets and, uh, he had, uh, still does have deep pockets. [00:29:09.837 – 00:29:11.027] He couldn't even drink it all up. [00:29:11.027 – 00:29:17.467] And, uh, he had a big old limo- He had a Mercedes as long as this building. [00:29:17.467 – 00:29:22.647] Now, he didn't wanna ride my little old, uh, excuse the expression, foreign car.

[00:29:22.647 – 00:29:24.967] But he didn't wanna get in there. [00:29:24.967 – 00:29:26.127] I'm not sure he could. [00:29:26.127 – 00:29:31.627] But, but we, uh, he came to get me in that limousine, you know, like, looks like I'm some big shot. [00:29:31.627 – 00:29:35.667] And we go to the prison, and we're the best looking thing out there by far. [00:29:35.667 – 00:29:40.187] And we go into a meeting first night, and an officer came over to me. [00:29:40.187 – 00:29:41.147] We were sitting in the group. [00:29:41.147 – 00:29:50.987] Officer came over and said, "Tom, you got a Mercedes?" I said, I said, "Well, yeah, I do." And, uh, but, but, uh, but I didn't bring it.

[00:29:50.987 – 00:29:52.807] I, it, mine's at home on the block. [00:29:52.807 – 00:29:55.007] And because it won't run right now. [00:29:55.007 – 00:29:56.507] It's b- it's getting better. [00:29:56.507 – 00:29:57.507] Mm-hmm. [00:29:57.507 – 00:30:00.787] But the, uh, he said, "Well, this, this is not that one for sure. [00:30:00.787 – 00:30:06.587] This one, this is a sure enough Mercedes." I said, "It's not mine, it's his." And pointed over at that guy. [00:30:06.587 – 00:30:09.747] And, uh, he said, "Well, you're gonna have to move it. [00:30:09.747 – 00:30:11.387] It, it, it's in the way of some stuff. [00:30:11.387 – 00:30:15.547] He's gonna have to move it." So I told him, I said, right, this is during the meeting.

[00:30:15.547 – 00:30:21.827] I said, "You gotta go move the car." He's like, "Oh, the light's wrong." That's what it was, the light's wrong. [00:30:21.827 – 00:30:28.547] And, uh, I said, "You gotta go move your car." He said, "I don't wanna leave the meeting." I said, "Well, I'm sorry about that. [00:30:28.547 – 00:30:33.587] I don't wanna walk home." "You gotta go move…" Now we're doing this in front of the inmates, you know. [00:30:33.587 – 00:30:36.367] They're choosing sides for either leave or stay. [00:30:36.367 – 00:30:42.267] Fi- finally I said w- he said, "I've got a good battery.

[00:30:42.267 – 00:30:51.967] Don't worry." I said, "You better have a good battery insurance or something, because you're gonna be walking home and I'll be riding." And, uh, so, so, uh, so we got through. [00:30:51.967 – 00:31:01.687] And on the way home at that, that night, you know, we'd warmed up a little bit, and he's, he, he, he, he started talking a little bit about himself. [00:31:01.687 – 00:31:05.587] You folks will do that if they, if you, if they know you're listening to them. [00:31:05.587 – 00:31:06.767] So he started talking a little bit.

[00:31:06.767 – 00:31:12.107] And it was a, it was a, a real setup for what we're talking about right here. [00:31:12.107 – 00:31:17.027] This, this guy had two sons, one of whom had already committed suicide. [00:31:17.027 – 00:31:26.607] And, um, the other one, uh, uh, was, was functioning and, and doing well, had a, a marriage and family. [00:31:26.607 – 00:31:34.887] And, uh, he hadn't spoken to the boy, to the man in f- in twenty-five years. [00:31:34.887 – 00:31:37.707] And, um, so I listened. [00:31:37.707 – 00:31:42.467] I, all at once I started to understand why he cried so easy.

[00:31:42.467 – 00:31:45.147] Why wouldn't he? [00:31:45.147 – 00:31:47.487] And so he told me this story. [00:31:47.487 – 00:31:52.127] And, uh, he said, "Will you help me with it?" I said, "Yeah. [00:31:52.127 – 00:31:57.847] Yeah, I, I, I will if I can." And so I said, "Let me give it some thought." [00:31:58.164 – 00:32:01.144] And so, uh, he should have known that was a warning. [00:32:01.144 – 00:32:04.064] I, I, uh, so we got ready to talk. [00:32:04.064 – 00:32:08.624] I said, "Uh, let me tell you what I'm gonna, I'm gonna strongly suggest that you do. [00:32:08.624 – 00:32:18.374] You buy a ticket to that state and, uh, that boy's town, and you call him and tell him that you want two hours of his time.

[00:32:18.374 – 00:32:21.284] Don't assemble the grandchildren. [00:32:21.284 – 00:32:24.044] Don't kill a moose and cook it or something. [00:32:24.044 – 00:32:24.544] You know, that… [00:32:24.544 – 00:32:28.704] You f- you, you, you tell that fella that you wanna see him for two hours. [00:32:28.704 – 00:32:31.204] That's your only purpose in going. [00:32:31.204 – 00:32:33.344] Don't visit the family. [00:32:33.344 – 00:32:43.344] You talk to that fella, get that straight, and then you, you, you might be on the way to doing something." And I swear to God, I liked to never got him on the [00:32:43.344 – 00:32:43.744] plane. [00:32:43.744 – 00:32:44.464] Uh, uh, that…

[00:32:44.464 – 00:32:50.264] He bought the ticket, but you talk about chickening out and, and, and could not get that nerve up. [00:32:50.264 – 00:32:53.644] And so finally got him on the plane. [00:32:53.644 – 00:33:03.504] He got out to that state and he called me and he said, "I'm coming back." Well, I could tell the way he said it that the mission was far from accomplished. [00:33:03.504 – 00:33:13.704] And, uh, I said, "Why are you coming back?" He said, "Well, uh, my son doesn't wanna see me." I said, "How do you know that?" He said, "Well, I just know it." I said, I

[00:33:13.704 – 00:33:21.464] said, "No, this is not gonna work." I said, "You may leave, but don't come to North Carolina. [00:33:21.464 – 00:33:31.484] If you're gonna leave, you better go somewhere else because you don't wanna come back here." And, and he said, "Well, I don't know what to do." I said, "Well, I'll tell you what [00:33:31.484 – 00:33:31.744] to do. [00:33:31.744 – 00:33:36.964] Pick up the phone, call that fella, and tell him you want two hours of his time, and he'll give it to you. [00:33:36.964 – 00:33:42.624] Do those amends and get on the plane." Well, he did it.

[00:33:42.624 – 00:33:45.663] Of course, he didn't need a plane to come back home. [00:33:45.663 – 00:33:49.644] You know, he could have flown on his own because it w- it just works. [00:33:49.644 – 00:33:54.664] And so, you know, here's family reu-reunited, eh? [00:33:54.664 – 00:33:56.164] The family reunited. [00:33:56.164 – 00:34:02.644] And, uh, that family came over and they spent their vacation, the, the, the following vacation they had, they came to spend it with him. [00:34:02.644 – 00:34:05.424] And that's what– that's the, the difference, eh? [00:34:05.424 – 00:34:11.844] Of just skimming the surface and not getting to those things that bedevil us.

[00:34:11.844 – 00:34:15.704] You know, that's the way the book refers to them is the thing, the bedeviling things. [00:34:15.704 – 00:34:25.744] And, and those things that all those places in life where we have gotten sideways with people or, or failed in a responsibility or, or [00:34:25.744 – 00:34:29.444] did, or, or violated trust people placed in us was a biggie. [00:34:29.444 – 00:34:32.904] And, and those things don't go away. [00:34:32.904 – 00:34:35.104] They don't die of old age. [00:34:35.104 – 00:34:37.864] They get worse with old age. [00:34:37.864 – 00:34:42.064] And, and, and so we either deal with them or we drag 'em forever.

[00:34:42.064 – 00:34:43.544] Forever. [00:34:43.544 – 00:34:45.584] They get worse, not better. [00:34:45.584 – 00:34:52.944] That's why so many of us wind up doing exactly, you know, what, what David did. [00:34:52.944 – 00:34:55.824] And, and so you, you can see it. [00:34:55.824 – 00:35:03.264] You, you can see it when you look and you, you know what you're looking for, is those people who are wandering here, they hear the music, but they're not dancing. [00:35:03.264 – 00:35:05.004] You know, they're not part of it. [00:35:05.004 – 00:35:13.124] And so– And my God, the, the, the– just like I said, I've seen far too many of, of these cases.

[00:35:13.124 – 00:35:15.003] We, we had a… [00:35:15.003 – 00:35:17.024] And, and it's amazing how, how often it happens. [00:35:17.024 – 00:35:24.504] I had a, a good friend who was a Methodist minister, a very fine minister, uh, a very well-respected leader in, in his church. [00:35:24.504 – 00:35:28.964] And, uh, he was a, a… [00:35:28.964 – 00:35:31.764] You never know what's eating people, eh? [00:35:31.764 – 00:35:37.684] You, you never know because if you listen to him or saw him in action, he'd look like an absolute world beater. [00:35:37.684 – 00:35:41.624] But if you saw him when the lights went out, you'd see a different thing.

[00:35:41.624 – 00:35:49.844] And this guy, twenty-two years sober, and the best he could come up with was drive out in the woods and shoot himself. [00:35:49.844 – 00:35:52.024] It's just amazing. [00:35:52.024 – 00:35:56.124] It doesn't matter how you– about the intelligence or brilliance or this kind of stuff. [00:35:56.124 – 00:35:58.764] Alcoholism kills from the inside. [00:35:58.764 – 00:36:01.444] It doesn't take away the outside necessarily. [00:36:01.444 – 00:36:03.284] It kills from the inside. [00:36:03.284 – 00:36:08.964] And, and so that's what we're dealing with is, is that's the grim side of it. [00:36:08.964 – 00:36:17.703] You know, the, the, you know, the, the, the, the plus side of it is that, that it can so easily be dealt with by simply taking the actions.

[00:36:17.703 – 00:36:27.764] That's why I like to, to deal with, with the steps because that's the difference, you know, that, that, that people who just don't go on into [00:36:27.764 – 00:36:29.144] that, that kind of thing. [00:36:29.144 – 00:36:37.744] And, and I mean, I could go on the rest of the– Well, I wouldn't wanna go on the rest of the day with it, but I could, I could go on for a long, long time with, with cases just like that. [00:36:37.744 – 00:36:42.484] And you probably could too if you stop and think w-with, with things that you've seen.

[00:36:42.484 – 00:36:51.164] And so just coming in and not drinking and going to meetings, it's a solution, but it's a skinny one. [00:36:51.164 – 00:36:52.844] That is a skinny solution. [00:36:52.844 – 00:36:56.263] It's called survival. [00:36:56.263 – 00:37:02.364] And, uh, and we do, just like I said in the beginning, that we do, every one of us has that option. [00:37:02.364 – 00:37:04.164] We don't have to work steps. [00:37:04.164 – 00:37:05.484] We don't have to do anything. [00:37:05.484 – 00:37:09.084] You know, we're a s- member of Alcoholics Anonymous if we say we are. [00:37:09.084 – 00:37:12.184] Don't have to sign a pledge, take the rights, don't have to do a thing.

[00:37:12.184 – 00:37:19.724] If you're in, if you say you're in, and you're in to either take a drink or quit. [00:37:19.724 – 00:37:21.484] Simple as that. [00:37:21.484 – 00:37:25.364] And there's no monitor to tell you that you're not to do it. [00:37:25.364 – 00:37:27.904] It's, it's just between you and God as you understand it. [00:37:27.904 – 00:37:34.124] And, and, and so it's, um, it's a, it's a, it's a difficult thing we're dealing with. [00:37:34.124 – 00:37:37.864] It's not just a matter of getting philosophically sound. [00:37:37.864 – 00:37:41.284] It, it's a matter of getting rid of, of where alcoholism lives.

[00:37:41.284 – 00:37:42.464] It lives on the inside. [00:37:42.464 – 00:37:53.944] And the, uh, the, the, the hard fact is that to me that, uh, heard a little bit of it last night, that, um, that drinking solves [00:37:53.944 – 00:37:55.224] the problem for a while. [00:37:55.224 – 00:37:57.944] And boy, does it ever solve the problem. [00:37:57.944 – 00:38:01.952] Until the, the drinking becomes its own problem. [00:38:01.952 – 00:38:02.292] Yeah. [00:38:02.292 – 00:38:06.992] And so it, uh, what– the solution becomes a big, big, big part of the problem. [00:38:06.992 – 00:38:15.432] And so extremely important to, to me to recognize that alcoholism goes a lot deeper than drinking.

[00:38:15.432 – 00:38:18.352] If it was just drinking, there'd be nothing to it. [00:38:18.352 – 00:38:25.612] You know, unfortunately, not drinking is the starting point, not the finish line. [00:38:25.612 – 00:38:26.972] It's the starting point. [00:38:26.972 – 00:38:30.792] And, uh, so the, uh… [00:38:30.792 – 00:38:34.372] You, you– wanna– You wanna add anything in there? [00:38:34.372 – 00:38:35.352] Whatever. [00:38:35.352 – 00:38:36.292] Yeah, whatever you want. [00:38:36.292 – 00:38:37.352] Go ahead. [00:38:37.352 – 00:38:38.972] Uh, you, you, you welcome anytime now. [00:38:38.972 – 00:38:41.932] You– We're a highly tuned organization here. [00:38:41.932 – 00:38:47.852] We can– He, he normally just butts in, you know, so he- Just call me up when you're ready.

[00:38:47.852 – 00:38:48.132] Yeah. [00:38:48.132 – 00:38:52.172] All right, well, go ahead, and I'll, uh, let you get, get to rest a bit. [00:38:52.172 – 00:38:52.532] All right. [00:38:52.532 – 00:38:54.312] Give you a little break here. [00:38:54.312 – 00:38:59.212] I'm used to that mistreatment. [00:38:59.212 – 00:39:00.092] He's my sponsor. [00:39:00.092 – 00:39:02.112] So that's how it goes. [00:39:02.112 – 00:39:08.272] Um, I was telling last night, as Jerry and Jill know, a guy, uh, he's, he's passed away now. [00:39:08.272 – 00:39:09.232] He's my old sponsor. [00:39:09.232 – 00:39:13.712] And he, um, if he were living, he'd be sober just a little bit longer than Tom. [00:39:13.712 – 00:39:20.352] But I said as long as I knew him, as long as I was sponsored by him, he told three lies all of his sobriety.

[00:39:20.352 – 00:39:22.332] And the first lie, I won't tell you what the other two were. [00:39:22.332 – 00:39:23.552] I won't take up the time to do that. [00:39:23.552 – 00:39:28.512] But the first lie he always told as long as I knew him is he swore he didn't tell people what to do. [00:39:28.512 – 00:39:29.612] He made suggestions. [00:39:29.612 – 00:39:33.752] I said, "I can guarantee you that's a lie." That was a lie. [00:39:33.752 – 00:39:37.312] I knew it was a lie the first time I heard him say it, and I knew it was a lie the last time I heard him say it.

[00:39:37.312 – 00:39:38.752] If anybody knew, I knew. [00:39:38.752 – 00:39:41.312] He's pointing his finger at me on what to do. [00:39:41.312 – 00:39:46.432] Um, that's a compelling story about David taking his own life and, and, um… [00:39:46.432 – 00:39:51.392] I think like Tom said, we've all seen far too much of that. [00:39:51.392 – 00:39:53.932] I, I, I think that we would be shocked. [00:39:53.932 – 00:40:04.252] It's, uh, our– and our intention this weekend is not to indict people for what they don't do because it, it– there's no society on Earth, says in the Twelve and Twelve, there's no society on Earth more safely

[00:40:04.252 – 00:40:08.712] guards the individual member's right to practice Alcoholics Anonymous how you want. [00:40:08.712 – 00:40:14.552] The only guardian, actually, in a very real sense, if you wanted to cut right to the final chase, the only guardian's alcohol. [00:40:14.552 – 00:40:22.572] I mean, there'd be no sense in waking up in the morning and thanking God or whatever you believe for the gift of sobriety if you'd never been drunk, for crying out loud. [00:40:22.572 – 00:40:28.992] You might wake up and thank God for a nice day if you're spiritually inclined, but there'd be no gift of sobriety.

[00:40:28.992 – 00:40:32.232] So I mean, the, the alcohol is, is the final guardian. [00:40:32.232 – 00:40:42.232] But I think it– I think we'd all be surprised if we knew how many people… Maybe don't– We all know people like David, but I think we'd be surprised if [00:40:42.232 – 00:40:48.512] we know how many people look the gift in the eye and don't do all of the stuff or don't take amends. [00:40:48.512 – 00:40:50.092] I– One case rushes to mind. [00:40:50.092 – 00:40:50.772] I knew a woman. [00:40:50.772 – 00:40:51.912] She's a very effective member. [00:40:51.912 – 00:40:53.652] She was a member of my old home group.

[00:40:53.652 – 00:40:58.492] She's very effective in closed meetings, dealing with topics and steps, and she was effective from the podium. [00:40:58.492 – 00:41:00.212] She was effective with working with other women. [00:41:00.212 – 00:41:07.732] But I always knew that, that there was gonna come a point when she was gonna have to get all the way in or get all the way out because there were some amends she was not willing to do. [00:41:07.732 – 00:41:14.352] And, uh, the road narrows with alcoholism, and it narrows in Alcoholics Anonymous with the steps.

[00:41:14.352 – 00:41:17.612] There comes a time, and we'll be talking about that this weekend. [00:41:17.612 – 00:41:27.832] But one of the things that, that, that, that, uh, I've been aware of in the last few years, I've had two rather, uh, corresponding thoughts that, that have, [00:41:27.832 – 00:41:31.292] um, have continued to, to be with me and to deepen. [00:41:31.292 – 00:41:39.132] And one is, is the longer I'm sober, the more I'm absolutely convinced what a diabolical, nasty illness alcoholism is. [00:41:39.132 – 00:41:41.152] I think that it's a killer illness. [00:41:41.152 – 00:41:42.592] I think we're all aware of that.

[00:41:42.592 – 00:41:45.152] But like I was trying to talk about last night, I think that Dr. [00:41:45.152 – 00:41:46.532] Silkworth was onto something. [00:41:46.532 – 00:41:50.512] I think there's a part of alcoholism we don't quite grasp, any of us. [00:41:50.512 – 00:41:53.052] I think there's a part of alcoholism we can't quite grasp. [00:41:53.052 – 00:41:54.952] It's an illogical thing. [00:41:54.952 – 00:41:56.972] It simply does not make sense. [00:41:56.972 – 00:42:02.172] All you have to do is put your hand on something one time that shocks you, and you don't do that again. [00:42:02.172 – 00:42:05.772] But we go back to the well time after time after time.

[00:42:05.772 – 00:42:08.512] There's parts of alcoholism we can't grasp. [00:42:08.512 – 00:42:14.452] I was talking to my wife, um, who's not an alcoholic, but she's, she's, she's observed it up close. [00:42:14.452 – 00:42:17.012] Not through me, but she's observed it up close. [00:42:17.012 – 00:42:18.792] But she was saying something about… [00:42:18.792 – 00:42:19.871] I can't remember who it was. [00:42:19.871 – 00:42:20.972] We were just talking about it a couple days ago. [00:42:20.972 – 00:42:31.092] And she said, "Well, they come from a good family where they know about recovery." I said, "Well, yeah, that– you would think that would make sense." But it's fascinated me from the very since I got sober, like one

[00:42:31.092 – 00:42:35.612] guy in the same family will quit drinking when he can't get his Chri- Chri- Christmas presents. [00:42:37.459 – 00:42:47.579] Sure enough, alcoholism in his brother, who had the same biology, the same raising, the same everything, will end up going to prison three or four times and destroying everything that gets in his way, and it's [00:42:47.579 – 00:42:49.339] the, the absolutely same person. [00:42:49.339 – 00:42:51.259] I don't know what's going on there. [00:42:51.259 – 00:42:57.839] But we really wanna talk some this morning about the, the, the phenomenon of surrender and the necessity of that.

[00:42:57.839 – 00:43:01.079] So I've had a, I've had an absolute, um… [00:43:01.079 – 00:43:04.019] I don't know. [00:43:04.019 – 00:43:10.068] It's a conviction about how– about this illness and how it's such a, um, it's, it's… [00:43:10.068 – 00:43:13.909] There's just no end to the destruction of the illness of alcoholism. [00:43:13.909 – 00:43:16.979] It's an illness that's very easy to underestimate. [00:43:16.979 – 00:43:21.579] I think we underestimate it as drinkers, and I think we underestimate it in recovery. [00:43:21.579 – 00:43:25.539] There is no such thing as arriving with alcoholism. [00:43:25.539 – 00:43:27.019] One of the guys I sobered up under…

[00:43:27.019 – 00:43:29.059] In fact, he made the call on me. [00:43:29.059 – 00:43:34.079] That, uh, he never was my sponsor, but he made the first call that was ever made on me, and he was one of the leaders where I sobered up. [00:43:34.079 – 00:43:40.179] And you know how when somebody goes out and they're drinking, they've been in the program, and somebody will always… [00:43:40.179 – 00:43:41.099] I've said it myself. [00:43:41.099 – 00:43:45.599] Somebody will always say, "Well, at least they know what to do." We've all heard that, right? [00:43:45.599 – 00:43:48.639] They know what to do, or they know what to do, or they know where the answer is.

[00:43:48.639 – 00:43:50.819] And that really infuriated that guy. [00:43:50.819 – 00:43:52.539] He said, "No, they don't know what to do. [00:43:52.539 – 00:43:59.999] If they knew what to do, they wouldn't be in the shape they were in." And I think he had a good grasp of the intellectual part of alcoholism. [00:43:59.999 – 00:44:04.079] It's important enough, but it's a minor part. [00:44:04.079 – 00:44:07.579] You don't need to know much about alcoholism to recover from it. [00:44:07.579 – 00:44:11.439] You need to know if you got it or not, and you need to know where the solution is.

[00:44:11.439 – 00:44:15.359] But understanding it and the logical part of that, it's a very illogical illness. [00:44:15.359 – 00:44:16.959] It doesn't make much sense. [00:44:16.959 – 00:44:20.259] So I think that's one thought that I've had going on for a long time. [00:44:20.259 – 00:44:30.259] The other thought I've had that's corresponding to that thought, and I'm, I'm grateful it's growing at the same rate and maybe a little bit faster, is, is what a marvelous recovery Alcoholics Anonymous [00:44:30.259 – 00:44:30.519] is. [00:44:30.519 – 00:44:35.179] This thing is so powerful that there's no telling what'll happen.

[00:44:35.179 – 00:44:45.199] I heard a guy say one time, he said, uh, he said, "This is the kind of faith I've been lacking over the years." He said, "I'd sit in an AA meeting and listen to some guy tell a story of going from under a [00:44:45.199 – 00:44:46.918] bridge to the corporate boardroom. [00:44:46.918 – 00:44:51.449] And then on the way home, I'd wonder if this was gonna work on my checkbook." You know? [00:44:51.449 – 00:44:53.099] And I think that's every man. [00:44:53.099 – 00:44:54.678] You know, that's all of us.

[00:44:54.678 – 00:44:55.959] That's all of us. [00:44:55.959 – 00:45:01.399] But this thing is so powerful that it'll revolutionize every area of our life. [00:45:01.399 – 00:45:07.059] Kind of as a way of getting rolling, too, it, it, it looks like to me, this is just my take on it. [00:45:07.059 – 00:45:10.899] We're not experts on Alcoholics Anonymous, not an expert on the step. [00:45:10.899 – 00:45:12.319] I'm not an expert on that book. [00:45:12.319 – 00:45:13.719] I'm not– I'm, I'm nothing. [00:45:13.719 – 00:45:16.859] I'm just a guy that Alcoholics Anonymous has worked awfully well for. [00:45:16.859 – 00:45:23.619] At one time, I thought I was an expert on my own case, but I've been here long enough to know that that's not true.

[00:45:23.619 – 00:45:25.899] Here's one thing I am an expert on. [00:45:25.899 – 00:45:28.259] I wanna be a little bit careful of how I say this. [00:45:28.259 – 00:45:32.239] I'm an expert on trying to apply these principles to the best of my ability. [00:45:32.239 – 00:45:38.019] I have absolutely tried to apply this stuff in every area of my life the best I can. [00:45:38.019 – 00:45:44.079] Someone else might be able to do better, but I'm an expert on the effort of trying to apply these principles. [00:45:44.079 – 00:45:48.819] And Tom introduced me to a term years ago, and I heard him say it this morning.

[00:45:48.819 – 00:45:50.799] There's a, a slip of tongue. [00:45:50.799 – 00:45:58.679] To try– We try not to use the word work when it comes to the steps, but try to use the word practice because work gives the implication that there's something… [00:45:58.679 – 00:46:00.079] Now, alcoholics are good at that. [00:46:00.079 – 00:46:02.059] We can take something and strangle it. [00:46:02.059 – 00:46:09.299] It's always irritated me when people talk about smoking and overcoming smoking in the same discussion, overcoming alcoholism. [00:46:09.299 – 00:46:13.879] But if you watch recovered alcoholics, when they get ready to quit smoking, we almost always whip it.

[00:46:13.879 – 00:46:17.178] Because what happens, we line up and go right up against it. [00:46:17.178 – 00:46:27.239] But things you have to learn how to do, like learn how to eat properly and all that that you have to keep doing, that's much more difficult, and we've gotta keep practicing this stuff [00:46:27.239 – 00:46:28.519] to stay in the game. [00:46:28.519 – 00:46:32.579] But the point I wanted to make, it looks like to me that people approach Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:46:32.579 – 00:46:34.259] I'm gonna– This is a very broad brush. [00:46:34.259 – 00:46:36.339] Consider it if you're interested.

[00:46:36.339 – 00:46:38.399] I don't have to tell you to blow it off if you ain't. [00:46:38.399 – 00:46:40.859] Alcoholics will do that on their own. [00:46:40.859 – 00:46:41.779] Uh, but there's… [00:46:41.779 – 00:46:47.459] It looks like to me people approach Alcoholics Anonymous in two distinct ways. [00:46:47.459 – 00:46:52.779] One is the man or woman who socialized into a kind of AA that says, "Put these principles first in your life. [00:46:52.779 – 00:46:57.479] Practice them to the best of your ability in all your affairs, and you don't have to do anything else. [00:46:57.479 – 00:47:04.279] Everything else will automatically follow." Now, I'm well aware of the fact that if you can't read or write, you're gonna have to learn how to read.

[00:47:04.279 – 00:47:07.669] If you don't have any education, you don't know how to do anything, you're gonna have to do all that. [00:47:07.669 – 00:47:11.979] But if you're practicing these principles to the best of your ability, then all those things are gonna happen. [00:47:11.979 – 00:47:19.659] So far, right up to this moment, I've never seen one single person fir– that put these principles first in their life who hasn't come out just fine. [00:47:19.659 – 00:47:21.259] That doesn't matter. [00:47:21.259 – 00:47:22.879] It doesn't mean life isn't gonna visit us. [00:47:22.879 – 00:47:26.579] All the stuff that happens in life, life comes at us awfully fast.

[00:47:26.579 – 00:47:31.019] Even before they had automatic weapons, single shots went fast. [00:47:31.019 – 00:47:31.279] You know? [00:47:31.279 – 00:47:32.759] And that's what happens in life. [00:47:32.759 – 00:47:36.549] I mean, we're here now, and we've gotta begin to grow up and start to deal with this. [00:47:36.549 – 00:47:40.479] But I've never seen one single person that didn't come out just fine. [00:47:40.479 – 00:47:44.399] I gave that example last night of the guy whose little nine-year-old kid was run over. [00:47:44.399 – 00:47:49.779] But I've seen people deal with their own death in a, in a manner that was absolutely unbelievable.

[00:47:49.779 – 00:47:59.779] Most of the time, check me on this, most of the time you'll know, like in your home group, if you see like an, a really established member that's dealing with real trauma. [00:47:59.779 – 00:48:06.019] You won't even know it in the meetings unless you know them outside of the meeting 'cause they're dealing with the topic or whatever it is. [00:48:06.019 – 00:48:08.699] If it's a step meeting, that's what they're dealing with. [00:48:08.699 – 00:48:13.579] Of course, they're dealing with their problems, but they're talking to someone privately about that out independent of that.

[00:48:13.579 – 00:48:17.859] So I've never seen one single person fail who puts these principles first in their life. [00:48:17.859 – 00:48:23.279] The other way, and that's the kind of AA I was socialized into, and that's the kind I try to pass on. [00:48:23.279 – 00:48:33.299] The other way it looks like to me that people approach Alcoholics Anonymous today, and it looks like to me, depending on where you live, it could be more in this way, is, is people try to [00:48:33.299 – 00:48:40.135] figure out all the areas of their life where they're weak and patch them and fix those problems Believing that their alcoholism will go away.

[00:48:40.135 – 00:48:45.235] Now, if you look at the illness of alcoholism logically, I'm here to tell you that makes a lot more sense. [00:48:45.235 – 00:48:52.795] I mean, if you can figure out why you're drinking, take care of that, and the drinking will go away, which is what the alcoholic's looking for anyway. [00:48:52.795 – 00:48:54.314] I'm drinking because of problems. [00:48:54.314 – 00:49:00.055] Well, I said last time, the longer I'm sober, the more I'm convinced that problems have very little to do with drinking. [00:49:00.055 – 00:49:04.255] And I had some big problems when I was drinking, there's no doubt about that.

[00:49:04.255 – 00:49:13.035] But, I mean, I've had to work just like everybody else has with life on a daily basis since that time, and that's when, when problems really start to come. [00:49:13.035 – 00:49:21.295] So I think that we were given some stuff in Alcoholics Anonymous that makes drinking impossible, that you've gotta quit doing. [00:49:21.295 – 00:49:25.095] You know, uh, this is just me again, but I just hate to hear… [00:49:25.095 – 00:49:30.895] There was– I was at the assembly last weekend, and there's a guy, every time he went to the mic, he said he was a grateful, recovering alcoholic.

[00:49:30.895 – 00:49:32.415] I just hate to hear that. [00:49:32.415 – 00:49:37.875] You know, our literature says we've recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. [00:49:37.875 – 00:49:39.415] I'm not in some kind of flux. [00:49:39.415 – 00:49:42.075] I don't live in fear of the first drink. [00:49:42.075 – 00:49:45.015] I'd have to quit doing the things. [00:49:45.015 – 00:49:49.075] The gift that I believe that God has given us is provided through his children. [00:49:49.075 – 00:49:50.795] It's passed on through his children. [00:49:50.795 – 00:49:53.735] Obviously, God wants us to gather up and work together. [00:49:53.735 – 00:49:57.755] Otherwise, if you believe in God, you almost have to believe God can do anything he wants.

[00:49:57.755 – 00:50:00.655] It could've– He could've worked it out a myriad of ways. [00:50:00.655 – 00:50:04.535] He could've said, "When you've had enough, I'll call you on the telephone, and we'll put a stop to it. [00:50:04.535 – 00:50:11.274] You contact me, and we'll get it cleared up right now." And every once in a while– Well, every once in a while, something like that happens. [00:50:11.274 – 00:50:18.435] We all hear– I used to work in a large Catholic hospital, and we all know of cases where somebody's cancer's been removed.

[00:50:18.435 – 00:50:21.295] We all know of somebody that's brought out of that wheelchair. [00:50:21.295 – 00:50:28.315] But most often, what God says is, "Get the surgeon, get the knife, and he'll cut it out." That's most often what it is. [00:50:28.315 – 00:50:34.295] So obviously, God wants us involved in that, so it's, uh, given us the gift of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:50:34.295 – 00:50:36.455] I wanna back up just a minute. [00:50:36.455 – 00:50:38.355] We wanna do the first three steps this morning. [00:50:38.355 – 00:50:41.274] I wanna just take a couple seconds if I can. [00:50:41.274 – 00:50:43.315] We're in good shape on the time.

[00:50:43.315 – 00:50:51.215] I wanna take a couple seconds and, and get us up to where Alcoholics Anonymous started, so we know a little bit of our underpinnings and our history. [00:50:51.215 – 00:51:00.055] I think sometimes people use the word, like the word friends gets passed around a lot, and, uh, I think sometimes the word miracle gets passed around a lot. [00:51:00.055 – 00:51:04.215] But if you look at how our history came together, it's really miraculous. [00:51:04.215 – 00:51:07.995] One thing, like Tom was talking about, the book's not the answer.

[00:51:07.995 – 00:51:12.395] The book, the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous is simply a description of the answer. [00:51:12.395 – 00:51:17.675] But I'll tell you something now, that book has become a lot more true after they wrote it down. [00:51:17.675 – 00:51:22.295] They had to get together to find out what it is they had done. [00:51:22.295 – 00:51:25.915] And you can rest assured now, I don't know how many people they had there that, that… [00:51:25.915 – 00:51:30.675] Bill was known to, to round things up a little bit. [00:51:30.675 – 00:51:37.735] And when he said he had a hundred people, you can rest assured not all of those people had done the things that they wrote down in that book.

[00:51:37.735 – 00:51:43.975] This book has become a– Our solution has become a lot more real after it was written down. [00:51:43.975 – 00:51:52.215] But I think in a very real sense, it's fair to say that alcoholics had to die and fail for years for that to come about. [00:51:52.215 – 00:51:54.415] There were a couple forerunners. [00:51:54.415 – 00:51:57.155] So there were some people that had part of the answer. [00:51:57.155 – 00:51:59.255] The Washingtonians had part of the answers. [00:51:59.255 – 00:52:05.215] There was a handful of guys that met in a bar in Maryland that found that by sticking together, they could keep from drinking.

[00:52:05.215 – 00:52:09.715] And they set out, and they had a solution, and it grew faster than we ever did. [00:52:09.715 – 00:52:18.875] Depending on who you believe, it went all the way from, or depending on, in the written word, I've seen it all the way from a hundred thousand members to a half million, is how fast it grew. [00:52:18.875 – 00:52:23.095] And, uh, that was before telephones, before fax machines, email. [00:52:23.095 – 00:52:24.695] It grew by word of mouth. [00:52:24.695 – 00:52:25.695] And they did. [00:52:25.695 – 00:52:27.715] They found so– part, part of the solution.

[00:52:27.715 – 00:52:32.195] They called themselves the Washingtonians after George Washington 'cause he was the first to. [00:52:32.195 – 00:52:35.195] And they thought they were the first ones that had found a way out. [00:52:35.195 – 00:52:36.735] And I'll tell you why this is important. [00:52:36.735 – 00:52:42.435] If anybody ever believes that we can't go away, all you gotta do is look at history. [00:52:42.435 – 00:52:52.295] By the time that AA was moving along, and some of us, so I'll just say us, uh, us, our predecessors, people ahead of us in spread.

[00:52:52.295 – 00:53:02.475] By the time some early members started to feel like that we were getting in trouble as a movement, when they contacted Bill Wilson, I've never known who it was, Tom might, but it was a man [00:53:02.475 – 00:53:05.035] in North Carolina who contacted Bill Wilson. [00:53:05.035 – 00:53:15.035] In the early going of AA and when we were starting to fight and spit at each other and raise Cain and all of that, and we didn't have the traditions yet, this guy said, "If we ain't careful, we're

[00:53:15.035 – 00:53:16.665] gonna go the same way the Washingtonians [00:53:16.814 – 00:53:17.054] Did. [00:53:17.054 – 00:53:19.694] Now, Bill Wilson was a bright guy. [00:53:19.694 – 00:53:21.514] He'd never heard of the Washingtonians. [00:53:21.514 – 00:53:24.654] That's how far away they'd went already at that point. [00:53:24.654 – 00:53:29.414] But the Washingtonians had part of the answer, and they found that answer by sticking together. [00:53:29.414 – 00:53:32.994] So part of our solution, you can infer from that, is what? [00:53:32.994 – 00:53:33.694] It's community. [00:53:33.694 – 00:53:36.734] We do together what we can't do alone. [00:53:36.734 – 00:53:43.254] You would think if any step was gonna talk about the individual, it'd be the first step.

[00:53:43.254 – 00:53:46.894] But even the first step, especially the first step, starts with we. [00:53:46.894 – 00:53:54.734] It says, "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol." Then there's that dash, and that means another thought, that our lives had become unmanageable. [00:53:54.734 – 00:53:58.354] So what that means, you just can't make it drinking, you can't make it not drinking. [00:53:58.354 – 00:54:01.894] Now, I don't wanna hit you with anything too heavy, but that means you're screwed. [00:54:01.894 – 00:54:07.094] I mean, if you can't make it drinking and you can't make it not drinking, we got some serious problems here.

[00:54:07.094 – 00:54:11.294] So anyway, the Washingtonians had found part of the answer to that. [00:54:11.294 – 00:54:12.934] Now, here's what happened. [00:54:12.934 – 00:54:14.774] Keep an eye on him, uh, Paul. [00:54:14.774 – 00:54:15.814] Keep an eye on Jeremy. [00:54:15.814 – 00:54:16.663] All right. [00:54:16.663 – 00:54:17.674] Now, here's what happens. [00:54:17.674 – 00:54:19.714] Here's what happened with that. [00:54:19.714 – 00:54:23.654] The Washingtonians started to grow, and they started to dabble in other stuff. [00:54:23.654 – 00:54:26.014] And you may well know the story, but it's worth reviewing. [00:54:26.014 – 00:54:28.194] They got involved in some stuff. [00:54:28.194 – 00:54:29.634] They got the abolition movement. [00:54:29.634 – 00:54:35.774] The, the slavery, anti-slavery movement in the United States was big, so they got involved and started choosing up sides on that.

[00:54:35.774 – 00:54:38.774] They got involved on the wet/dry issue. [00:54:38.774 – 00:54:41.814] Some of them were for drinking, some of them were for not drinking. [00:54:41.814 – 00:54:47.054] And, um, so hence, later, our tradition said we don't have any opinions on any of that stuff. [00:54:47.054 – 00:54:54.494] We might have opinions as individual AA members, as individuals, but as AA members and publicly, we don't have any opinion on that. [00:54:54.494 – 00:54:58.434] And the other thing that they started doing is they started letting anybody join. [00:54:58.434 – 00:55:02.334] So you could be a member whether you'd ever had a drinking problem or not.

[00:55:02.334 – 00:55:08.934] Well, pretty soon what happened, they started getting in all that diversion with other causes, and they began to go away. [00:55:08.934 – 00:55:13.693] And in short time, they went so far away that they're gone. [00:55:13.693 – 00:55:17.694] Now, part of the solution was there. [00:55:17.694 – 00:55:18.954] We learned from that. [00:55:18.954 – 00:55:29.114] We, as a movement, learned very well from that, and that's one reason I think that if, you know, you read even a little bit about our history, Bill drove people nuts with those [00:55:29.114 – 00:55:30.694] traditions before they ever got in.

[00:55:30.694 – 00:55:38.134] People would invite him to talk and said, "We'd love to have you come and tell us about your hot flash, Bill, but leave those traditions home." Mm-hmm. [00:55:38.134 – 00:55:39.164] I think he was calling them… [00:55:39.164 – 00:55:40.684] It wasn't, it wasn't traditions then. [00:55:40.684 – 00:55:43.394] It was points for contact, or he had some other name for them. [00:55:43.394 – 00:55:49.214] But they w– As a movement, it took a number of years, and part of that is, is we had to learn. [00:55:49.214 – 00:55:54.994] And it's, and I think it's so true that very often alcoholics had to die for some of us to recover.

[00:55:54.994 – 00:56:01.314] There was another group that found part of the answer, and part of that answer was passed on to both Bill Wilson and Dr. [00:56:01.314 – 00:56:02.734] Bob, and that was the Oxford Movement. [00:56:02.734 – 00:56:03.974] And what they… [00:56:03.974 – 00:56:05.124] They had four absolutes. [00:56:05.124 – 00:56:10.654] I think they had absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love, I think, were their four tenets. [00:56:10.654 – 00:56:15.534] And it's hard to get alcoholics to do anything absolutely except stay drunk. [00:56:15.534 – 00:56:17.294] Uh, but that, that was… [00:56:17.294 – 00:56:28.654] But again, it's a, it's an interesting thing how God and, and all of this, you know, how all of this eventually worked out because both

[00:56:28.654 – 00:56:29.654] Bill Wilson and Dr. [00:56:29.654 – 00:56:32.394] Bob were highly served by those movements. [00:56:32.394 – 00:56:34.374] But Bill Wilson… [00:56:34.374 – 00:56:42.894] You know, if, if, if you look at history and you look at people who have had spectacular spiritual experiences, probably a lot of people that have had those we don't know about. [00:56:42.894 – 00:56:49.514] But most of the people that have had those that we know about have went into evangelical Christian kind of work. [00:56:49.514 – 00:56:53.434] They've tried to, to convert other people and all of that. [00:56:53.434 – 00:56:55.434] Bill Wilson wasn't interested in that.

[00:56:55.434 – 00:57:05.854] And Bill Wilson began to get in trouble with the Oxford Group Movement in New York because they said he wasn't maximum, and by that they meant he wasn't interested [00:57:05.854 – 00:57:08.474] in mankind to the point they thought he should be. [00:57:08.474 – 00:57:16.854] The founder of the Oxford Group Movement was a guy named Frank Buchman, and he was a guy who had lost his job and had some terrible resentments. [00:57:16.854 – 00:57:27.024] And he went on kind of a worldwide tour, and he was sitting in a small meeting with a lady evangelist, and he had a spectacular healing where that resentment was removed from him, and he knew it was his

[00:57:27.024 – 00:57:28.494] fault. [00:57:28.494 – 00:57:31.894] And he began to move forward to clean all of that up, and he started a movement. [00:57:31.894 – 00:57:36.854] And it, movement was really like if you, if you know somebody that doesn't have a coat, get them one. [00:57:36.854 – 00:57:44.334] And he was interested in dr- in addressing the ills of mankind, woman, mankind throughout the world. [00:57:44.334 – 00:57:52.154] Well, when Bill Wilson came along and, and was being served by the, by the, um, Oxford Group, he wasn't interested in that. [00:57:52.154 – 00:57:55.994] Bill Wilson wanted to work with alcoholics, and thank God that he did.

[00:57:55.994 – 00:58:00.114] And if you look back a little bit further than that, just a couple more things on that. [00:58:00.114 – 00:58:10.234] I don't think it's as bad as it used to be in Alcoholics Anonymous, but we've, we've, we've done a lot of talking about how people don't understand us, about how psy- psychiatry doesn't [00:58:10.234 – 00:58:14.734] understand us and psychology and the mental health profession and all of those things. [00:58:14.734 – 00:58:20.294] I'm not sure we've always done our job to, to, to help those people to understand.

[00:58:20.294 – 00:58:22.584] Now, a lot of it is that it's, it's true. [00:58:22.584 – 00:58:27.974] They're not gonna settle for alcoholism and its, its solution being quite as simple as it is. [00:58:27.974 – 00:58:31.694] You know, they always, a lot of times they want it to be symptomatic of something else. [00:58:31.694 – 00:58:36.854] My favorite sister-in-law is a head doctor, and I just love her, but I, I always knew it was coming. [00:58:36.854 – 00:58:40.494] And about three or four months ago, she finally laid it on me. [00:58:40.494 – 00:58:50.634] She said, "I just don't, cannot believe that alcoholics are just alcoholics." She said, "There are some may be, but that's coming from somewhere else."

[00:58:50.634 – 00:58:57.424] And I'm sober long enough now, I just sucked it up because, I mean, I've been up against those people till I've been bled white- -trying to argue that. [00:58:57.424 – 00:58:58.394] You can't get through. [00:58:58.394 – 00:58:59.524] And besides, it's senseless. [00:58:59.524 – 00:59:01.374] It doesn't mean, it doesn't mean a thing in the world. [00:59:01.374 – 00:59:06.114] All, all Marty needs to do if she gets an alcoholic in her practice is signal us. [00:59:06.114 – 00:59:07.414] That's all. [00:59:07.414 – 00:59:12.354] I mean, if she wants to beat on them about every other symptom in the world, we'll try to protect them best we can from this side.

[00:59:12.354 – 00:59:13.313] You know? [00:59:13.313 – 00:59:15.254] But I mean, you can't, you can't get through. [00:59:15.254 – 00:59:25.722] But, but we were served- If, if you, if you, if you back up in our history, the great psychiatrist in Switzerland, Carl Jung, [00:59:25.722 – 00:59:29.372] knew a little bit about alcoholism, and part of what he knew about alcoholism wasn't from his… [00:59:29.372 – 00:59:39.002] He wasn't an alcoholic, but he knew about it from his own dark nights and intense problems and, and difficulty he'd had, and looking into that, trying to, trying to fix that.

[00:59:39.002 – 00:59:49.202] We did a thing up in Rhode Island a while back, and Roland Hazard, the very wealthy man who ended up under his care, is buried up in Rhode Island, and we d- we, we went to his grave and [00:59:49.202 – 00:59:50.782] had a little service there and everything. [00:59:50.782 – 00:59:53.722] But Roland Hazard was under the care in Switzerland of Dr. [00:59:53.722 – 00:59:54.502] Carl Jung. [00:59:54.502 – 00:59:56.382] Very famous. [00:59:56.382 – 01:00:00.342] Um, he, he was almost as, as famous as Sigmund Freud. [01:00:00.342 – 01:00:10.362] In fact, they had been– He called Sigmund Freud his partner, and then eventually they had a big split and went their separate ways and became enemies, and that resentment's tough no matter what your, what your flavor

[01:00:10.362 – 01:00:10.542] is. [01:00:10.542 – 01:00:12.302] They didn't speak for about twenty-five years. [01:00:12.302 – 01:00:14.702] But Roland Hazard was treated. [01:00:14.702 – 01:00:17.082] His family had what Tom calls deep pockets. [01:00:17.082 – 01:00:17.902] They had a lot of money. [01:00:17.902 – 01:00:19.222] They own that town of Rhode Island. [01:00:19.222 – 01:00:22.352] They've given them the library, the park, and all kinds of stuff. [01:00:22.352 – 01:00:31.102] But he treated Roland Hazard for his alcoholism, and Roland Hazard left there saying, "I thought relapse was unthinkable. [01:00:31.102 – 01:00:38.762] It couldn't happen." In other words, what had happened, and it makes perfect sense if you, if you approach alcoholism logically.

[01:00:38.762 – 01:00:41.542] I'm drinking because of what's wrong with me. [01:00:41.542 – 01:00:46.262] I'll correct what's wrong with me, whatever those neurosises are or whatever's gone south. [01:00:46.262 – 01:00:48.562] We're all products of our past. [01:00:48.562 – 01:00:58.822] If, if you ever heard that old goofy saying that if everybody laid their poison on the table, and you could see what everybody was dealing with, you'd reach back in there and get yours quick before anybody [01:00:58.822 – 01:00:59.622] else could get it. [01:00:59.622 – 01:01:01.002] That's every man. [01:01:01.002 – 01:01:03.722] I mean, that's every man. [01:01:03.722 – 01:01:05.482] None of us are doing this thing perfectly.

[01:01:05.482 – 01:01:13.922] But Roland Hazard came away from that believing that he was healed, and a short time later, he was face down in a mud puzzle. [01:01:13.922 – 01:01:15.632] And when he returned to Dr. [01:01:15.632 – 01:01:23.882] Jung, he said that, "You're gonna have to put yourself under a bodyguard or hire somebody lock and key or something 'cause you're hopeless." And he asked him the question. [01:01:23.882 – 01:01:24.962] He s– And, and Dr. [01:01:24.962 – 01:01:28.622] Jung was obviously a man at this period in his life, I've read his life history.

[01:01:28.622 – 01:01:30.062] It's in– It's a fascinating story. [01:01:30.062 – 01:01:40.102] He had some humility by this time, and he was willing to say that all the hard-won education and learning of his profession didn't have the horses to [01:01:40.102 – 01:01:41.302] get through to Roland Hazard. [01:01:41.302 – 01:01:51.342] And he said that, "Alcoholics I've worked with before have found some success," but he said, "I've never been successful with an alcoholic of your description," which to me just means a [01:01:51.342 – 01:01:53.482] real alcoholic, a chronic alcoholic. [01:01:53.482 – 01:01:55.082] It's the primary thing that's wrong.

[01:01:55.082 – 01:02:04.562] And, uh, he said that, "You're gonna have to hire a bodyguard or lock and key." And Roland Hazard asked that question, "Are there no exceptions?" And Dr. [01:02:04.562 – 01:02:06.662] Jung said, "Yes, there are. [01:02:06.662 – 01:02:17.012] I don't understand it very much, but cases of, of like yours from earliest times periodically have found a spiritual awakening, some kind of a rearrangement," [01:02:17.012 – 01:02:20.922] which is really the goal of Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:02:20.922 – 01:02:27.002] Remember I said last night, it's, it's the whole goal of Alcoholics Anonymous, but it's particularly worked out through sponsorship.

[01:02:27.002 – 01:02:32.181] The job, job of sponsorship is to help the alcoholic go where he can't go. [01:02:32.181 – 01:02:36.982] Because if he or she can't go where they're not able to go, that means they're gonna drink, and they're gonna die drunk. [01:02:36.982 – 01:02:39.602] And then it becomes pared down from there. [01:02:39.602 – 01:02:42.422] I don't think it's Tom's job to turn me into him. [01:02:42.422 – 01:02:51.222] It's Tom's job to guide my affairs to help me become the very best person in all my affairs that I'm capable of being, and that's what I try to pass on.

[01:02:51.222 – 01:02:57.242] So I wanna, I wanna read something, and I'll get Tom back up here, and we'll get going on these steps. [01:02:57.242 – 01:03:00.062] But I– we wanted to get some kind of a firm, um… [01:03:00.062 – 01:03:01.722] We doing okay on time? [01:03:01.722 – 01:03:02.322] Yeah. [01:03:02.322 – 01:03:04.282] Yeah, we're doing great. [01:03:04.282 – 01:03:04.622] Okay. [01:03:04.622 – 01:03:05.722] All right. [01:03:05.722 – 01:03:10.982] I wanted to, I wanted to kinda lay a little bit of a groundwork about what we're trying to do. [01:03:10.982 – 01:03:21.122] Um, as far as I know now, there's everything in Alcoholics Anonymous that we do, that includes everybody in this room, it includes me, it includes my sponsor, it includes

[01:03:21.122 – 01:03:22.702] every member of AA in the world. [01:03:22.702 – 01:03:32.922] As far as I know, everything we do in Alcoholics Anonymous, whether it's GSR, twelve-step calls, pick up after people at the halfway house. [01:03:32.922 – 01:03:40.342] Whether you're involved in general service, or whether you're setting this thing up this weekend or cleaning it up or whatever, it comes down to one of two things. [01:03:40.342 – 01:03:43.342] We do everything we do in AA for one of two reasons. [01:03:43.342 – 01:03:48.142] We do it to stay sober or carry the message to the alcoholic who st-still suffers.

[01:03:48.142 – 01:03:55.962] That's our– That's the long and the short of why we exist, to stay sober and carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers. [01:03:56.755 – 01:04:04.634] So where we'd like to end up with this, I wanna, uh, my favorite paragraph out of the book… [01:04:04.634 – 01:04:06.135] I got my glasses here. [01:04:06.135 – 01:04:07.195] I don't know why I don't put them on. [01:04:07.195 – 01:04:08.115] I'm looking blind. [01:04:08.115 – 01:04:17.725] My favorite paragraph out of the book is a short chapter on page 100 that we read at the beginning of– I mean, at the end of all, all of my home group meetings.

[01:04:17.725 – 01:04:26.315] For my 10-year anniversary, guys I sponsored put on a birthday party for me, and one of the guys had this paragraph blown up. [01:04:26.315 – 01:04:33.075] It's bad to tell anything in the book because people will read the book and won't listen to you. [01:04:33.075 – 01:04:37.435] Um, but for- Everything's blown up these days. [01:04:37.435 – 01:04:38.435] Yeah. [01:04:38.435 – 01:04:46.835] Uh, for my 10-year anniversary, Jeff had this paragraph that I'm gonna read in a minute and put in a frame, and it's in a beautiful oak frame.

[01:04:46.835 – 01:04:50.095] He was, um… [01:04:50.095 – 01:04:51.725] I sponsored him for seven years. [01:04:51.725 – 01:04:53.655] He was a good member of Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:04:53.655 – 01:04:56.455] When he was sober se-seven years, we were in Omaha, Nebraska. [01:04:56.455 – 01:04:59.235] He took a buyout with Union Pacific Railroad. [01:04:59.235 – 01:05:07.005] It was very– It was boom years on the railroad, and they not only paid him, they, he, they, they retained him in his position and moved him from Omaha to St. [01:05:07.005 – 01:05:11.845] Louis, but they paid him a lot of money just to agree to move, besides his relocation and everything.

[01:05:11.845 – 01:05:14.935] And when he moved, he did what a lot of AA members do. [01:05:14.935 – 01:05:15.935] He, uh… [01:05:15.935 – 01:05:22.775] If you look at established AA members or even perfunctionary members, when they move, they almost never just immediately quit AA. [01:05:22.775 – 01:05:26.405] What they're more likely to do is not reestablish, aren't they? [01:05:26.405 – 01:05:30.735] They'll dance around a few meetings or flirt with a solution or whatever, and that's what Jeff did. [01:05:30.735 – 01:05:32.915] He'd been an excellent member for seven years. [01:05:32.915 – 01:05:35.715] He didn't quit going to meetings, but he didn't get a home group.

[01:05:35.715 – 01:05:40.055] He didn't stay in touch with me regularly, and he didn't get a sponsor there. [01:05:40.055 – 01:05:42.755] And after about a year, Jeff returned to drinking. [01:05:42.755 – 01:05:46.795] And about a year after that, just what we were talking about this morning, he took his own life. [01:05:46.795 – 01:05:52.415] But this is the paragraph that we'd like to, to incorporate in all of our work, uh, this weekend. [01:05:52.415 – 01:05:54.155] It's on page 100. [01:05:54.155 – 01:05:56.795] Obviously, it's out of the chapter Working With Others. [01:05:56.795 – 01:06:02.555] It says, "Both you and the new man must walk day by day in the path of spiritual progress.

[01:06:02.555 – 01:06:05.795] If you persist, remarkable things will happen. [01:06:05.795 – 01:06:12.315] When we look back, we realize that the things which came to us when we put ourselves in God's hands were better than anything we could have planned. [01:06:12.315 – 01:06:22.475] Follow the dictates of a higher power, and you will presently live in a new and wonderful world, no matter what your present circumstances." Now, that seems like a perfect line is drawn [01:06:22.475 – 01:06:23.875] from the twelve steps to that. [01:06:23.875 – 01:06:28.855] And what, what, what I believe is that all twelve steps are of equal importance.

[01:06:28.855 – 01:06:33.035] Not at the same time, obviously, but to the well-ordered life. [01:06:33.035 – 01:06:37.865] Remember, if you look at our triangle, we've got three parts in the triangle: recovery, unity, and service. [01:06:37.865 – 01:06:41.075] We spend about ninety-five percent of our meetings on recovery. [01:06:41.075 – 01:06:50.255] But all three of those get equal press, and I know of nowhere in AA literature does it say that any one step is any more important than any other step. [01:06:50.255 – 01:06:56.955] The only thing that even comes close to that, in the twelve and twelve, it says the first step is the only step we can practice to perfection.

[01:06:56.955 – 01:07:01.795] But again, like Tom talked about this morning, the first step would be a terrible place to stay. [01:07:01.795 – 01:07:02.975] Sure. [01:07:02.975 – 01:07:09.875] That might be a price of admission, but I mean, that's, that's, that's– Boy, I'll tell you, that's like crawling through broken glass every day. [01:07:09.875 – 01:07:13.715] I mean, you talk about running uphill or going to the bathroom in the wind. [01:07:13.715 – 01:07:14.275] That's it. [01:07:14.275 – 01:07:19.955] Because, I mean, that's a terrible place because that's– I mean, there's tremendous effort in that. [01:07:19.955 – 01:07:23.155] And what we know that Alcoholics Anonymous is about surrender.

[01:07:23.155 – 01:07:27.815] So I hope that we've set a tone to roll this thing this weekend, and we're gonna take a little break. [01:07:27.815 – 01:07:28.555] How long do we break? [01:07:28.555 – 01:07:29.315] Fifteen minutes. [01:07:29.315 – 01:07:30.155] Fifteen minutes. [01:07:30.155 – 01:07:33.355] Book. [01:07:33.355 – 01:07:36.535] I forgot that what I was gonna read is not in big print. [01:07:36.535 – 01:07:38.875] I learned very quickly. [01:07:38.875 – 01:07:43.195] That was given to me by, uh, some guys out in Oklahoma. [01:07:43.195 – 01:07:47.575] That, uh, is, is one of those repro first editions. [01:07:47.575 – 01:07:50.335] They gave it to me on condition that I use it.

[01:07:50.335 – 01:07:52.624] And this is the second time I've used it. [01:07:52.624 – 01:07:54.395] They didn't want me to make a shrine out of it. [01:07:54.395 – 01:07:56.015] They want me to get, put it to use. [01:07:56.015 – 01:07:58.875] So this is the second time it's been out and exposed. [01:07:58.875 – 01:08:04.695] Uh, one other little lead-in thing and then, and then, uh… [01:08:04.695 – 01:08:08.095] Well, it all kinda goes together anyway. [01:08:08.095 – 01:08:14.415] That, you know, I, I mentioned about being a door watcher that you probably run into the same thing. [01:08:14.415 – 01:08:24.415] Uh, I got awfully concerned, uh, have been for a long, long time, but I got awfully concerned about the enormous failure rate i,i

[01:08:24.415 – 01:08:29.475] in Alcoholics Anonymous in terms of people come in and just barely s-get in the door, and they're gone. [01:08:29.475 – 01:08:35.035] And it, you know, it looked like over the years, we're taking in more and more people and had more leaving than coming in. [01:08:35.035 – 01:08:45.455] And, and so it's just, it's a, it's, it's, it's a heartbreaking thing when you look at it in terms of what the, the human devastation involved in that [01:08:45.455 – 01:08:50.695] and, uh, th-the kind of, um, the batting average we have.

[01:08:50.695 – 01:08:53.655] And it's– I, I got really troubled about that. [01:08:53.655 – 01:09:02.755] And, you know, there's, there's, you know, it's obvious there's only so much one member can do, but there is something one member can do, and, and that's to give it some thought. [01:09:02.755 – 01:09:11.935] And I started thinking about that in terms of: What could I do that might make a difference in that, where I stand? [01:09:11.935 – 01:09:14.575] And, uh, you know, like, I'm a member. [01:09:14.575 – 01:09:17.555] I'm, I'm, I'm one member, but I'm doggone well one member.

[01:09:17.555 – 01:09:22.395] And I'm a member of a home group, and my home group is a strong group. [01:09:22.395 – 01:09:25.035] It's a place where folks have got a good chance to get well. [01:09:25.035 – 01:09:28.295] And, uh, so there is a, a great deal. [01:09:28.295 – 01:09:32.955] But even, e-even in those conditions, that we saw that, that real failure rate. [01:09:32.955 – 01:09:35.535] So I just started thinking about what, what, what, what I could do. [01:09:35.535 – 01:09:47.455] And one day, I was at a conference somewhere, and a buddy of mine told me some stuff he was doing in the book that, uh, that,

[01:09:47.455 – 01:09:49.935] uh, seemed to be working pretty well. [01:09:49.935 – 01:09:55.035] And, and I, I said, "Well, why don't you tell…" Now, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a visual person. [01:09:55.035 – 01:09:58.555] I said, "Why don't you just show me what you do instead of telling me? [01:09:58.555 – 01:10:03.875] Why don't you just show me?" So we pulled up some chairs in the hallway of a hotel. [01:10:03.875 – 01:10:05.427] Blocking traffic. [01:10:05.427 – 01:10:12.427] But we just pulled up and grabbed a few folks and about a half a dozen of us sat down, and he showed me, you know, what we do.

[01:10:12.427 – 01:10:15.887] And he just opened the book and s- and started to read something. [01:10:15.887 – 01:10:26.127] And he said, "Assume on the hand, on the, on the other hand that Father has at the ons- outset a star- stirring spiritual [01:10:26.127 – 01:10:28.947] experience." Well, this is in Family Afterwards. [01:10:28.947 – 01:10:31.217] And the, the… [01:10:31.217 – 01:10:33.647] it doesn't matter where you start, the question's always the same. [01:10:33.647 – 01:10:43.707] He said, "The only question that we ask when we read that is, do you identify or relate to that?" [01:10:43.707 – 01:10:43.727] Mm. [01:10:43.727 – 01:10:46.167] Never, what do you think?

[01:10:46.167 – 01:10:48.547] That never makes the table. [01:10:48.547 – 01:10:49.217] Mm. [01:10:49.217 – 01:10:49.987] What do you think? [01:10:49.987 – 01:10:54.547] It's how do you identify or relate, if you identify or relate. [01:10:54.547 – 01:10:58.727] And, uh, that really made a, a, a lot of sense to me. [01:10:58.727 – 01:11:09.047] And, uh, that, because what it does, it makes the, the story of recovery, which is what the big book is, my story of recovery [01:11:09.047 – 01:11:11.947] when I start to put myself in it personally. [01:11:11.947 – 01:11:22.007] And, and so as a matter of fact now, I almost in- just instinctively, if I read the book, I translate it

[01:11:22.007 – 01:11:23.307] into personal terms. [01:11:23.307 – 01:11:33.387] And, uh, it's, it's like, you know, for example, that first, uh, that first edition thing, you know, where it says, "We, we of Alcoholics Anonymous, more than 100 men [01:11:33.387 – 01:11:39.327] and women who've recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body." I always change that. [01:11:39.327 – 01:11:49.387] I just instinctively do it, you know, that I'm a, I'm a, I am one of 2 million alcoholics who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind [01:11:49.387 – 01:11:49.807] and body.

[01:11:49.807 – 01:11:51.247] It makes it me. [01:11:51.247 – 01:12:00.347] And so I do that in every, in every e- every element of the book, and I do that with people I'm working with so that the book becomes personal and becomes real. [01:12:00.347 – 01:12:04.607] And not just trying to connect with some old folks from the last century. [01:12:04.607 – 01:12:07.227] It's, it's with, with, with what's here and now. [01:12:07.227 – 01:12:11.647] And, um, so I, I started doing… [01:12:11.647 – 01:12:14.007] I never had really sat in one of those things. [01:12:14.007 – 01:12:20.947] We weren't doing things like this back when I came in, of studying the book and all this kind of stuff.

[01:12:20.947 – 01:12:25.487] Uh, we had a real, real well-organized approach to the step. [01:12:25.487 – 01:12:27.127] It was called Get Your Best Hold. [01:12:27.127 – 01:12:33.327] And, uh, and the term that was used most often was this, do it cafeteria style. [01:12:33.327 – 01:12:39.067] If you get to something that you're not ready to deal with, just skip that and go into something that you are ready to deal with. [01:12:39.067 – 01:12:41.247] That's kind of a helter-skelter way. [01:12:41.247 – 01:12:49.927] But I heard a guy say one time that, and it, and it absolutely turned out to be true, that he was using an example.

[01:12:49.927 – 01:12:54.157] I always look around the, the, uh, you know, like the, the curtain with the, the steps on it. [01:12:54.157 – 01:13:04.207] The guy r- r- made a reference to that, and he said, "There are 200 w- words in those steps, and if you'll take the actions that are [01:13:04.207 – 01:13:12.817] laid out in those steps as honestly as, as, as you are capable of doing, when you get through you'll be a different dude." Mm. [01:13:12.817 – 01:13:19.087] And uh, he said, "It doesn't even matter what your motives are." And I thought, now I'm, I'm sort of…

[01:13:19.087 – 01:13:22.206] I was a skeptic, you know, and I, I thought, come on, man. [01:13:22.206 – 01:13:26.287] I was, I might have been a character when I was drunk, but, uh, I know better than that. [01:13:26.287 – 01:13:28.687] I mean, you can't throw a curve and expect a fastball. [01:13:28.687 – 01:13:30.407] That, uh, that, that ain't gonna work. [01:13:30.407 – 01:13:33.067] But the guy was absolutely right. [01:13:33.067 – 01:13:39.507] Because the first time I, that I started to go through the steps, it was exactly the way that, that he did. [01:13:39.507 – 01:13:40.766] I fumbled through it.

[01:13:40.766 – 01:13:43.287] But as honestly as I knew how to be. [01:13:43.287 – 01:13:47.847] And when I got through with it, I had an absolutely transforming experience. [01:13:47.847 – 01:13:48.887] Transforming. [01:13:48.887 – 01:13:50.387] I've never been the same man since. [01:13:50.387 – 01:13:58.927] And, and so I knew that it worked, and it doesn't take a highly educated, highly regimented way of doing it, just honestly doing those principles. [01:13:58.927 – 01:14:01.067] So I was, I was… [01:14:01.067 – 01:14:03.327] Uh, didn't, didn't need to be sold on that. [01:14:03.327 – 01:14:08.207] And so I decided to do ju- just what the guy demonstrated in that hall.

[01:14:08.207 – 01:14:16.427] And so I just contacted folks I sponsored, asked them, "You wanna go through a…" You know, didn't, didn't draft them. [01:14:16.427 – 01:14:19.167] I said, "You wanna go through and do the book? [01:14:19.167 – 01:14:25.986] And, uh, w- we'll go through the entire 164 pages and do every action that's spelled out. [01:14:25.986 – 01:14:35.197] And the only condition is you don't miss sessions." You know, that's step five, that step five, uh, introduction- [01:14:35.610 – 01:14:45.810] Works introduction is, uh, chapter five introduction says, "Rarely we've seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." And somebody

[01:14:45.810 – 01:14:47.910] asked Bill one time if he'd have changed anything in the book. [01:14:47.910 – 01:14:55.430] He said he probably would have made, uh, put, uh, never instead of rarely of people who really followed those principles. [01:14:55.430 – 01:14:57.110] And one else stressed that last night. [01:14:57.110 – 01:14:59.829] That there really isn't much room for failure. [01:14:59.829 – 01:15:07.709] And, and so we started out with that provision, and, and so what we did, I didn't have a clue who was coming to the, to the deal. [01:15:07.709 – 01:15:17.730] And, uh, yeah, I knew, you know, the guys that I got that, but I told them, "You could bring somebody with you if you'd like." And so we wound up with a pretty good gang

[01:15:17.730 – 01:15:20.910] of people, and I've gotten a little smarter with it. [01:15:20.910 – 01:15:24.090] We had, we had a gang of people, and I had no clue. [01:15:24.090 – 01:15:25.070] And the, the… [01:15:25.070 – 01:15:32.610] when we started to do it, one, there was a, a woman came in that I knew very well. [01:15:32.610 – 01:15:35.010] A- and I was not grateful that I knew her. [01:15:35.010 – 01:15:39.450] See, she, she was a, she was an interesting woman. [01:15:39.450 – 01:15:47.390] Very, very, uh, well-educated, Ivy League type person, re- really well-educated, sophisticated gal. [01:15:47.390 – 01:15:51.870] Slam total atheist, I mean, atheist and proud of it.

[01:15:51.870 – 01:15:58.930] I, I thought she came to AA primarily to, to debate with me because that's what it seemed like we were doing. [01:15:58.930 – 01:16:07.050] And I thought when she came in, "Oh my God." That's what happened with an open door policy that you wind up with this kind of stuff. [01:16:07.050 – 01:16:16.710] And I, I, and I'm thinking, "Man, we're gonna be in the debating society for the next year." And, uh, so we started out and, and, uh… [01:16:16.710 – 01:16:26.730] Now, the interesting thing about groups of, of how we function as, as group, that we'll, we'll set our place, you know, that we'll

[01:16:26.730 – 01:16:30.630] tend to sit where we sit with whom we sit. [01:16:30.630 – 01:16:37.520] And, uh, she came in and sat down between two other aggravated cases. [01:16:37.520 – 01:16:41.270] And, uh, and I said, "Well, there we go. [01:16:41.270 – 01:16:51.290] There's my trouble corner over there." And so we started out, and the, and amazing thing, and the way that thing works, the way he was doing it then, [01:16:51.290 – 01:17:01.570] I found an easier, softer way, but the way he was doing it then, the leader is also the reader, and the leader does everything, reads every word,

[01:17:01.570 – 01:17:06.890] and then, then leads the group, leads the comments about that. [01:17:06.890 – 01:17:11.750] And I thought, "My God, we're never gonna get through here." It took a long time. [01:17:11.750 – 01:17:15.590] And, uh, interesting thing happened. [01:17:15.590 – 01:17:21.910] Well, a lot of interesting happened, but one thing of real interest that happened was, uh, watching my little trouble corner. [01:17:21.910 – 01:17:28.270] Amazing how you, you start seeing folks when it starts to kick in, and they'll just settle down. [01:17:28.270 – 01:17:29.410] You don't have to say anything. [01:17:29.410 – 01:17:37.090] You can just see the antagonistic posture change into a more open posture, and that started to happen.

[01:17:37.090 – 01:17:38.890] I was kind of amazed at it, really. [01:17:38.890 – 01:17:47.870] And, uh, now, I, I'm a guy, I'm a great believer in spontaneity, particularly if it's well-planned. [01:17:47.870 – 01:17:51.950] It, it just seems to work better. [01:17:51.950 – 01:17:59.290] And, uh, the, uh, so we spontaneously wound up a session on the third step prayer. [01:17:59.290 – 01:18:00.869] Just so happened. [01:18:00.869 – 01:18:07.810] And, uh, we got to it, and I said, "Okay, we're gonna close a little differently tonight. [01:18:07.810 – 01:18:10.030] We're not gonna do the Our Father. [01:18:10.030 – 01:18:12.070] Uh, we're gonna close with the third step prayer.

[01:18:12.070 – 01:18:14.610] And there are three options. [01:18:14.610 – 01:18:20.150] One, you can grab hold of us and go down with us and do it with us. [01:18:20.150 – 01:18:21.190] That's one. [01:18:21.190 – 01:18:31.210] Or you can hold our hands while we do it, or you can step back and watch us do it." Well, now most of that was targeted [01:18:31.210 – 01:18:34.150] at her 'cause she was a combative soldier in that crowd. [01:18:34.150 – 01:18:44.489] And she told me later, uh, privately, I'm glad she didn't do it publicly, what she said about me as I was making that, uh,

[01:18:44.490 – 01:18:49.590] offer, and she called me stuff that I hadn't been called since I left the bar room. [01:18:49.590 – 01:18:51.929] And, and under her breath, thank God. [01:18:51.929 – 01:18:54.170] But she got in the circle. [01:18:54.170 – 01:18:56.170] Amazing stuff, eh? [01:18:56.170 – 01:18:57.730] Spontaneity. [01:18:57.730 – 01:19:07.830] And, uh, now she didn't have a burning bush experience, but she had an absolutely transforming experience because [01:19:07.830 – 01:19:10.870] she, she became a different gal. [01:19:10.870 – 01:19:13.550] And, and she started to warm up. [01:19:13.550 – 01:19:14.750] And, and she… [01:19:14.750 – 01:19:14.890] I… [01:19:14.890 – 01:19:18.250] if anybody had prophesied this to me, I'd have thought they were drinking.

[01:19:18.250 – 01:19:22.030] She became my backup. [01:19:22.030 – 01:19:29.110] If I had to be out of town, which I really fought hard, but if I had to, to go away, she was my backup. [01:19:29.110 – 01:19:32.870] If anybody had told me that would've happened, I'd have said, "You gotta be kidding, man. [01:19:32.870 – 01:19:33.970] No way. [01:19:33.970 – 01:19:35.630] No way." But she did. [01:19:35.630 – 01:19:39.010] Today, sh- uh, this is many years ago. [01:19:39.010 – 01:19:41.710] It's probably 15 years ago or something we did that. [01:19:41.710 – 01:19:47.810] Today, she is still the warmest, most gracious woman in that region of the state.

[01:19:47.810 – 01:19:53.570] If I have any, any kind of a situation with a female, that's my go-to person. [01:19:53.570 – 01:19:55.310] An amazing thing. [01:19:55.310 – 01:20:03.930] If I'd never seen anything else, that in and of itself would have been enough to convince me that that is powerful medicine. [01:20:03.930 – 01:20:09.310] And, uh, and so we took off and, and, uh, when we finished… [01:20:09.310 – 01:20:12.270] Yeah, I'm, I'm not a magic bullet thinker. [01:20:12.270 – 01:20:19.610] Uh, you know, I, I, I do believe that there is some, some painful growth that's required in, in, in making this program.

[01:20:19.610 – 01:20:22.930] But I also believe it is a powerful spiritual tool, too. [01:20:22.930 – 01:20:33.230] And, uh, and so what happened, uh, and I'm, and I'm not a magic bullet thinker, but I, I do believe, ju- just what I was saying earlier, that when you're really [01:20:33.230 – 01:20:41.210] tied into these principles, there's no room for failure You only fail when you back away and, and separate from the principle. [01:20:41.210 – 01:20:44.669] You separate from the practice, and that's where tragedy occur. [01:20:44.669 – 01:20:54.790] And I, I say that not in conjecture, but the, uh, the fact is that we had 15 people that finished

[01:20:54.790 – 01:20:58.350] all the s- the, all the way through every session. [01:20:58.350 – 01:21:03.770] Of that group, not a single one ever drank again up to this point. [01:21:03.770 – 01:21:05.970] That's not a magic bullet. [01:21:05.970 – 01:21:16.410] It's just absolute evidence that if you do this thing as solidly as you know how, and you do it with perseverance and stick-to-it-iveness, amazing [01:21:16.410 – 01:21:17.110] things happen. [01:21:17.110 – 01:21:17.570] Yeah. [01:21:17.570 – 01:21:19.810] And so it's, um… [01:21:19.810 – 01:21:22.290] I'm a great believer in, in, in how much it… [01:21:22.290 – 01:21:26.090] Now, those things, I swear to God, they about beat me to death.

[01:21:26.090 – 01:21:36.410] Last one I did, I, I made some changes, but the last one I did had 32 people in it, and the bigger the group doesn't breed efficiency. [01:21:36.410 – 01:21:38.310] It, it, it takes time. [01:21:38.310 – 01:21:39.410] God knows. [01:21:39.410 – 01:21:41.890] And I got through mud wrestling that bunch. [01:21:41.890 – 01:21:43.950] I said, "Something gotta give." And so… [01:21:43.950 – 01:21:47.150] And I have, I have found an easier, softer way. [01:21:47.150 – 01:21:54.570] I, I'm not gonna buy it 100% yet, but I found a way that we can do it in, uh, in, uh…

[01:21:54.570 – 01:21:56.510] Y- you… [01:21:56.510 – 01:21:58.430] It run just about 15 weeks. [01:21:58.430 – 01:22:01.030] That's a lot better than a year and a half. [01:22:01.030 – 01:22:03.530] And so that's highly appealing. [01:22:03.530 – 01:22:13.630] It also, it also relieves the reader, the leader of the total responsibility and [01:22:13.630 – 01:22:19.290] puts it where I think it belongs, on the shoulders of the participant. [01:22:19.290 – 01:22:27.870] And so that, like, instead of me just reading to folks till they go into a coma, it's, uh, it's, it's a matter of them having particular things to read.

[01:22:27.870 – 01:22:31.950] And, and then, and then what they'll do, we'll do that, and then they'll do that. [01:22:31.950 – 01:22:34.850] We call it homework just, just for a name. [01:22:34.850 – 01:22:40.830] That, uh, they'll do that reading and then come back the next week and then share with each other what was really important in that. [01:22:40.830 – 01:22:43.330] I, I don't know how that's gonna work. [01:22:43.330 – 01:22:45.050] It's gotta have the test of time. [01:22:45.050 – 01:22:48.970] I'm not real sold on quick fixes. [01:22:48.970 – 01:22:55.550] You know, it, it, it's not that simple an illness, and it's about changing a life, not learning facts, you know.

[01:22:55.550 – 01:22:56.330] So I, I'm not… [01:22:56.330 – 01:22:59.130] I'm, I'm guardedly optimistic that that's gonna work. [01:22:59.130 – 01:23:06.550] We've done two groups at a prison and two groups downtown, uh, since we've been doing that. [01:23:06.550 – 01:23:14.110] And, uh, I mean, we, we don't do research on each other, but we live in a small town, so you know the, the outcomes. [01:23:14.110 – 01:23:14.750] And so we… [01:23:14.750 – 01:23:16.710] I wanna see what happens over the test of time. [01:23:16.710 – 01:23:21.730] But I surely, God, hope it works, uh, 'cause that other one, man, it's a backbreaker.

[01:23:21.730 – 01:23:24.710] But worth it in terms of what it does. [01:23:24.710 – 01:23:24.970] Yeah. [01:23:24.970 – 01:23:35.090] So I'm, I'm a great believer in, in, in what we can do with this book as a tool by making it come alive and by taking the actions that are laid out in it, not just [01:23:35.090 – 01:23:36.690] learning to pronounce all the words, you know. [01:23:36.690 – 01:23:43.870] Um, so mighty, mighty, uh, valuable kind of an experience for me. [01:23:43.870 – 01:23:53.870] Um, you know, when I came in- into the program, just like I was saying, the, the, uh, we, we weren't,

[01:23:53.870 – 01:23:56.450] we weren't as sophisticated then. [01:23:56.450 – 01:24:03.550] You know, there's some kind of a popular notion that we used to do it better in the old days, you know, that we were more thorough and more… [01:24:03.550 – 01:24:10.470] But if we were, we sure hid it from me because I never saw any of that. [01:24:10.470 – 01:24:10.750] Yeah. [01:24:10.750 – 01:24:17.430] I never went to a Big Book meeting for probably the first 15 years I was sober for one good reason. [01:24:17.430 – 01:24:18.170] There weren't any. [01:24:18.170 – 01:24:19.510] There weren't any. [01:24:19.510 – 01:24:24.050] And I never went to anything where anybody took anybody through steps.

[01:24:24.050 – 01:24:26.770] It just wasn't done that I… [01:24:26.770 – 01:24:27.830] to, to my knowledge. [01:24:27.830 – 01:24:37.850] And, uh, you know, I had a guy, had a real close buddy that, that I, I talked with about this, but there was no organized stuff that, uh, that people [01:24:37.850 – 01:24:39.570] they could bring back to the good old days. [01:24:39.570 – 01:24:47.510] Uh, you know, people who, who yearn for the good old days, for my money, either weren't there or have very poor memories, one or the other. [01:24:47.510 – 01:24:49.070] I don't wanna bring back the good old days.

[01:24:49.070 – 01:24:59.190] Uh, there's some parts of it that are marvelous and, uh, but the way we did the steps, the way we did the program back then was primarily wild and crazy [01:24:59.190 – 01:24:59.710] action. [01:24:59.710 – 01:25:00.790] I, I mean, and I would… [01:25:00.790 – 01:25:01.010] I was… [01:25:01.010 – 01:25:07.410] We used the book a lot, but primarily used it to beat folks over the head to get them in the car or something. [01:25:07.410 – 01:25:08.700] That- … [01:25:08.700 – 01:25:10.890] didn't, didn't do a whole lot of real deep study with it. [01:25:10.890 – 01:25:14.760] Uh, so it, it, it was much more an action-oriented type

[01:25:14.851 – 01:25:15.211] Type of thing. [01:25:15.211 – 01:25:25.211] 12-step work was ev– ra-radical difference between then and now was you could safely say that practically every member of Alcoholics Anonymous [01:25:25.211 – 01:25:35.251] came here as a direct result of another member reaching out at, at a time when, when they expected nobody to reach out, and, [01:25:35.251 – 01:25:37.871] and grabbing hold and, and, and pulling in. [01:25:37.871 – 01:25:47.871] That, that was a hugely, hugely important characteristic of AA back then in that it built– it, it bred a loyalty second to

[01:25:47.871 – 01:25:54.431] none because when somebody did that for, for me, I would not hesitate to do it for somebody else. [01:25:54.431 – 01:26:04.611] And so we've, we've pretty dramatically changed from that to now if you say 12-step call, somebody thinks you need to call 911 or something that instead [01:26:04.611 – 01:26:06.191] of grab your hat, let's go. [01:26:06.191 – 01:26:06.891] You know, that… [01:26:06.891 – 01:26:09.891] So it's, it's, there are some dramatic differences in that. [01:26:09.891 – 01:26:16.671] And so just think about w-working in the book and, and getting down to cases, I think real, real good stuff.

[01:26:16.671 – 01:26:27.151] Um, I– when I came in, uh, to the program, I was twenty-four years old, and, um, that, [01:26:27.151 – 01:26:31.810] uh, back then, twenty-four-year-olds were not coming off the production line. [01:26:31.810 – 01:26:34.051] Uh, not that I noticed. [01:26:34.051 – 01:26:37.011] You know, they, they might have been coming off, but they weren't coming in. [01:26:37.011 – 01:26:43.211] And, uh, I was the youngest member in every meeting I attended for years. [01:26:43.211 – 01:26:48.331] And that, uh, sounds like a nice place unless you're standing in that place. [01:26:48.331 – 01:26:52.631] It's a weird feeling, you know, when you're the youngest dude in there.

[01:26:52.631 – 01:26:56.271] Most of the people in AA had drunk more years than I was old. [01:26:56.271 – 01:27:01.231] And then I felt like a, a, a real oddball in, in, in most of the meetings. [01:27:01.231 – 01:27:08.191] And, uh, you know, AA folk, we, we, we talk rough, but we're basically pretty kind-hearted folk. [01:27:08.191 – 01:27:18.251] And I had so many people telling me how lucky I was to come into Alcoholics Anonymous at my young age, and I'm thinking, "My [01:27:18.251 – 01:27:20.371] God, what's lucky about this?" You know?

[01:27:20.371 – 01:27:22.071] I'm t-twenty-four years old. [01:27:22.071 – 01:27:23.351] I hadn't even learned to live. [01:27:23.351 – 01:27:28.911] And, uh, here I am, I'm gonna have to get into the legion of the damned forever, you know? [01:27:28.911 – 01:27:34.051] And so I was not overly thrilled with it in those, in those early days. [01:27:34.051 – 01:27:43.071] And, uh, and I, and I got so sick of people telling me how fortunate I was to be in AA that, uh, patting on the head. [01:27:43.071 – 01:27:44.711] Uh, that was one of the favorite things. [01:27:44.711 – 01:27:55.141] People pat on the head and say, "How old are you, son?" I say, "I'm twenty-four." They say, "Oh, my God." I had a guy one time tell me that he was kind of patting on me and

[01:27:55.141 – 01:28:05.291] ooh-ing and aw-ing, and he said, "Do you realize that at your age you could actually look forward to fifty years in recovery?" [01:28:05.291 – 01:28:08.571] And he was just– uh, he was almost in rapture. [01:28:08.571 – 01:28:10.691] You know, he thought that was the most wonderful thing in the world. [01:28:10.691 – 01:28:19.931] And I'm thinking, "My God, what if it works?" I'm gonna be here forever in this thing. [01:28:19.931 – 01:28:23.811] So here we are fifty-two years later. [01:28:23.811 – 01:28:29.491] So, so if you're, if you're real new in the program and, and you got some thoughts, you better get out while you can.

[01:28:29.491 – 01:28:34.791] Because you stay here too long, man, we get our talons in you, and it's hard to get away. [01:28:34.791 – 01:28:39.091] So but, uh, I'm deeply, deeply thankful for that now. [01:28:39.091 – 01:28:49.251] So, so that, that when I went in, it was, uh, it was really pretty much just sort of a, a casual kind of identification [01:28:49.251 – 01:28:53.070] that, that, uh, the group I was in, it was, it was in an institution. [01:28:53.070 – 01:28:55.531] And group I was in, we met twice a week. [01:28:55.531 – 01:28:58.791] One, uh, uh, or we met every, uh, every…

[01:28:58.791 – 01:29:00.211] We met weekly. [01:29:00.211 – 01:29:04.070] One week would be a step meeting where we'd break down. [01:29:04.070 – 01:29:05.771] We had three hundred members in the group. [01:29:05.771 – 01:29:07.551] So we had a lot of manpower. [01:29:07.551 – 01:29:09.471] Had, uh, had three hundred members. [01:29:09.471 – 01:29:16.351] And we would break down into, and take over the entire school building and break down into groups, and we'd basically discuss steps. [01:29:16.351 – 01:29:17.451] We didn't, we didn't work them. [01:29:17.451 – 01:29:18.811] We just di-discussed them. [01:29:18.811 – 01:29:21.431] And then the other week we'd have a speaker meeting. [01:29:21.431 – 01:29:26.271] I agree with my buddy that the open speaker meeting is the purest form of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[01:29:26.271 – 01:29:36.290] And, uh, those open speaker meetings were, um, were a vital thing in my helping to get connected and to understand that I was [01:29:36.290 – 01:29:36.811] alcoholic. [01:29:36.811 – 01:29:39.831] When I was twenty-four years old, I didn't believe I was alcoholic. [01:29:39.831 – 01:29:46.251] I believed I was a fellow with a lot of potential, and if I could ever get my feet on the ground, man, look out, world, here I come. [01:29:46.251 – 01:29:47.771] That's, that's really what I believed. [01:29:47.771 – 01:29:51.891] My track record did anything but support that.

[01:29:51.891 – 01:29:54.791] Uh, I'll, I'll tell you about my track record maybe tonight. [01:29:54.791 – 01:29:56.631] But the, uh, the, uh… [01:29:56.631 – 01:30:02.211] When I walked into AA, I've never felt more out of place anywhere in my life than I, than I did in Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:30:02.211 – 01:30:04.571] Uh, I didn't particularly wanna go. [01:30:04.571 – 01:30:05.931] Didn't know exactly what it was. [01:30:05.931 – 01:30:09.511] I figured it was gonna be some kind of a religious cult of some sort. [01:30:09.511 – 01:30:15.711] And, uh, I had long since closed the door on anything to do with organized religion.

[01:30:15.711 – 01:30:19.731] And so I, I walked into AA with a lot of trepidation. [01:30:19.731 – 01:30:23.930] I, I was, I was uneasy as could be about mo-about, about moving into Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:30:23.930 – 01:30:28.911] And, uh, but I walked into that first meeting and sat down. [01:30:28.911 – 01:30:36.631] You know, thank God, since I was in an institution, nobody hugged me at the door, thank God, or anywhere else. [01:30:36.631 – 01:30:45.671] And I was really grateful for that because hugging there, well, anyway, it, it wasn't, wasn't exactly a warm welcome.

[01:30:45.671 – 01:30:49.731] And as I walked into that first meeting, felt totally out of place. [01:30:49.731 – 01:30:55.811] Most, most of the people in that room had drunk longer than I was years old. [01:30:55.811 – 01:31:02.511] And, uh, as I'm sitting there feeling like the, the village idiot and listened to my first meeting. [01:31:02.511 – 01:31:06.011] And, uh, now, this, this was not a, a, you… [01:31:06.011 – 01:31:11.691] As you gathered from what I said, that it's not a highly organized, structured kind of a way of introducing people. [01:31:11.691 – 01:31:15.911] I just sat down in, in, in the, in the, in, in a, in a crowd of three hundred people.

[01:31:15.911 – 01:31:18.391] Listen to the meeting. [01:31:18.391 – 01:31:23.271] And, and what I listened to was, uh, the readings that we typically do. [01:31:23.271 – 01:31:29.251] And they, they did not only the ones we typically do, they read stuff I'd never heard of, and a lot of it. [01:31:29.251 – 01:31:29.871] I read… [01:31:29.871 – 01:31:30.781] They read a lot of stuff. [01:31:30.781 – 01:31:32.651] Didn't mean a thing to me. [01:31:32.651 – 01:31:35.611] I mean, that was about like reading sc- reading scriptures at a church. [01:31:35.611 – 01:31:35.831] You know? [01:31:35.831 – 01:31:36.111] That… [01:31:36.111 – 01:31:37.691] It didn't, didn't have any real meaning to me.

[01:31:37.691 – 01:31:40.251] I didn't understand that as a program or anything like that. [01:31:40.251 – 01:31:41.771] They prayed. [01:31:41.771 – 01:31:47.151] You know, not a, not a huge prayer, but the one we opened the meetings with very often, that serenity prayer. [01:31:47.151 – 01:31:51.271] And, uh, I was a guy that was totally shut down on religion. [01:31:51.271 – 01:31:59.731] Uh, and so when they prayed, I'm thinking to myself, "Yep, this is just what I thought." And, uh, got through the opening and they introduced the speaker. [01:31:59.731 – 01:32:05.691] And a guy got up and told his story, and, uh, I'd never heard an alcoholic tell his story.

[01:32:05.691 – 01:32:08.611] I'd heard them tell stories, but n- but not their own. [01:32:08.611 – 01:32:12.651] And this, this guy had to be telling his story 'cause nobody gonna make that up. [01:32:12.651 – 01:32:14.731] I mean, that was absolutely bizarre. [01:32:14.731 – 01:32:16.791] And I just, I sat there. [01:32:16.791 – 01:32:19.911] Didn't identify with one single thing that guy said. [01:32:19.911 – 01:32:21.890] The, um… [01:32:21.890 – 01:32:22.581] I mean, nothing. [01:32:22.581 – 01:32:25.471] He was as unlike me as anybody I've ever seen. [01:32:25.471 – 01:32:25.611] I… [01:32:25.611 – 01:32:32.531] If anybody had told me he would become my first sponsor in Alcoholics Anonymous, uh, I, I would have found that extremely hard to believe.

[01:32:32.531 – 01:32:33.031] But he did. [01:32:33.031 – 01:32:34.631] A year later, he became my sponsor. [01:32:34.631 – 01:32:38.731] And, um, loved him better than Peter loved the Lord. [01:32:38.731 – 01:32:39.431] It, uh… [01:32:39.431 – 01:32:43.531] B- but he was as different from me when I first heard him as anybody I've ever seen. [01:32:43.531 – 01:32:47.951] And so the, the Wild West story just didn't mean that much. [01:32:47.951 – 01:32:48.131] You know? [01:32:48.131 – 01:32:53.551] That he had a totally different, uh, life than me and, uh, I didn't identify with any. [01:32:53.551 – 01:32:57.251] I was in AA for two years. [01:32:57.251 – 01:33:00.251] Now, bear in mind, this is back in the Civil War.

[01:33:00.251 – 01:33:00.511] You know? [01:33:00.511 – 01:33:08.071] That this, uh- I was in AA two years before I ever heard one single alcoholic with whom I identified. [01:33:08.071 – 01:33:10.151] I didn't identify with anybody. [01:33:10.151 – 01:33:14.291] Everybody sounded like they were from a different generation, and most of them were. [01:33:14.291 – 01:33:20.651] And, uh, and finally, the, the guy, the first guy that I ever identified with was… [01:33:20.651 – 01:33:31.151] He was probably about as unlike, uh, I would imagine anybody I could identify with, was a guy that somebody [01:33:31.151 – 01:33:31.931] had brought him…

[01:33:31.931 – 01:33:33.171] And this was up in Michigan. [01:33:33.171 – 01:33:38.571] And somebody had brought him over to the prison for, uh… [01:33:38.571 – 01:33:41.811] And I don't think he knew where he was going. [01:33:41.811 – 01:33:43.731] Because you talk about Mr. [01:33:43.731 – 01:33:44.151] Clean. [01:33:44.151 – 01:33:44.991] Uh, this was Mr. [01:33:44.991 – 01:33:45.571] Clean. [01:33:45.571 – 01:33:46.371] This… [01:33:46.371 – 01:33:48.111] Looked like the Pillsbury Doughboy. [01:33:48.111 – 01:33:48.341] You know? [01:33:48.341 – 01:33:50.291] He was kind of a well-nourished fella. [01:33:50.291 – 01:33:56.251] And, uh, he, he, uh, he was a cream puff is what he was. [01:33:56.251 – 01:34:00.731] And, uh, and he was scared slam to death. [01:34:00.731 – 01:34:04.211] And I swear, I don't think he knew where he was till he got out of the car.

[01:34:04.211 – 01:34:06.711] The first thing you know, they slammed the door behind him. [01:34:06.711 – 01:34:11.291] And, uh, and they, they coerced him into getting up to speak. [01:34:11.291 – 01:34:12.691] Well, he didn't wanna speak. [01:34:12.691 – 01:34:13.671] He didn't even wanna be there. [01:34:13.671 – 01:34:16.411] And, uh, so he got up scared to death. [01:34:16.411 – 01:34:22.491] And he, he was so f- af- afraid that he spoke in a falsetto. [01:34:22.491 – 01:34:22.760] You know? [01:34:22.760 – 01:34:22.881] He… [01:34:22.881 – 01:34:24.531] That sort of squeaky voice. [01:34:24.531 – 01:34:28.151] He couldn't get a good bass voice so he'd look macho. [01:34:28.151 – 01:34:30.550] He sounded just squeaky clean.

[01:34:30.550 – 01:34:40.010] And, uh, oddly enough, he was as unlike me as anybody I ever saw, and, uh, first guy I ever identified with. [01:34:40.010 – 01:34:43.951] And, and the, and the, and the reason was simple. [01:34:43.951 – 01:34:51.591] This was a guy, this was a guy who, who, who talked about… [01:34:51.591 – 01:34:58.231] He, he said a lot of things, but his real message was about how, what it was like to live in fear. [01:34:58.231 – 01:34:59.211] You know? [01:34:59.211 – 01:35:06.031] What it was like to live with uncertainty, with guilt and shame and all of the stuff that doesn't go into a war story, eh?

[01:35:06.031 – 01:35:10.671] You know, that alcoholism is not what happens on the outside, it's what happens on the inside. [01:35:10.671 – 01:35:14.371] And, and that, and that's, and that's the first guy that I identified with. [01:35:14.371 – 01:35:20.591] It wasn't the Wild West stories and all that kind of stuff for somebody who drank 40 years and was never sober a single day. [01:35:20.591 – 01:35:23.851] No, it was about how, what it's like to die on the inside. [01:35:23.851 – 01:35:26.271] He didn't talk long, but it was long enough. [01:35:26.271 – 01:35:28.731] And that was the first guy that I ever identified with.

[01:35:28.731 – 01:35:33.411] Now remarkably, today we have a better breed of alcoholics I guess. [01:35:33.411 – 01:35:37.191] 'Cause I rarely meet anybody I don't identify with. [01:35:37.191 – 01:35:38.951] But what a difference, eh? [01:35:38.951 – 01:35:39.631] What a difference. [01:35:39.631 – 01:35:43.281] And, and so that was the way I, I got started in the program. [01:35:43.281 – 01:35:44.811] I, I sat for two years. [01:35:44.811 – 01:35:45.681] Right. [01:35:45.681 – 01:35:54.061] And, you know, I would get inklings of, of, of, uh, you know, of, of, of about what alcoholism- [01:35:54.206 – 01:35:56.466] As I'd get inklings, but I didn't believe it. [01:35:56.466 – 01:36:04.946] When I heard the notion of, of alcoholism being a disease, I found that a very awkward and almost embarrassing, uh, kind of a description.

[01:36:04.946 – 01:36:10.385] I thought, "What on earth is a disease about getting drunk?" And that was about how much I knew. [01:36:10.385 – 01:36:14.566] And, uh, I, I couldn't identify with any of that stuff. [01:36:14.566 – 01:36:24.406] I would listen to people tell their stories, and when you're listening to somebody who has drunk more years than you are years old, you find it a little difficult to, to, uh, to identify. [01:36:24.406 – 01:36:26.766] And I found it difficult to identify. [01:36:26.766 – 01:36:36.066] And sometimes we get so caught up in the Wild West stories that we overshadow the story of the dilemma of alcoholism, the inside job.

[01:36:36.066 – 01:36:46.106] And, and so what I heard was, was pe- as many people that would, would, would, would sort of repel my notions of alcoholism as, as I did people [01:36:46.106 – 01:36:47.366] that I could start to identify. [01:36:47.366 – 01:36:50.326] I tell you what started to make a difference with me. [01:36:50.326 – 01:36:53.986] I started … [01:36:53.986 – 01:37:04.526] I, I developed a kind of a primitive notion that alcoholics, based on the stories that I'd heard, that alcoholics [01:37:04.526 – 01:37:08.486] were people who when they drank, they got in trouble. [01:37:08.486 – 01:37:10.606] That's what it sounded like.

[01:37:10.606 – 01:37:15.966] Now, that may not have been what they're saying, but that's what I heard, that alcoholics are people who when they drink, they get in trouble. [01:37:15.966 – 01:37:26.346] And I thought, "Well, my God, if that's what alcoholism is, I've had that all my life." "Because I've been in trouble all my life and never sober." And that wasn't a real definitive [01:37:26.346 – 01:37:30.566] kind of a, of, of an admission of alcoholism like we're talking about in the first step. [01:37:30.566 – 01:37:33.606] But what it was was a crack in the door.

[01:37:33.606 – 01:37:37.466] What it was was enough to keep me in my seat. [01:37:37.466 – 01:37:39.486] It was enough to keep me there. [01:37:39.486 – 01:37:41.746] And, and thank God for that. [01:37:41.746 – 01:37:49.246] You know, thank God we didn't have somebody giving MMPIs and Rorschach tests to see whether you really fit in this cage or not. [01:37:49.246 – 01:37:58.166] You know, thank God this place is about you starting where you are and then growing to wherever you, where it might take you. [01:37:58.166 – 01:38:08.206] But, but that was my introduction to trying to deal with, with the, the first step, was just recognizing that when I drank, I had lots and lots of trouble, and it was enough to keep

[01:38:08.206 – 01:38:08.666] me here. [01:38:08.666 – 01:38:18.826] And, uh, learning that there's a lot more to alcoholism than just the antics and the behavior, that it's about stuff that happens on the inside. [01:38:18.826 – 01:38:26.326] The first place that I ever really started to identify with, uh … [01:38:26.326 – 01:38:30.926] It's, it's part of, of why I value so much the way we deal with alcoholism in the book. [01:38:30.926 – 01:38:37.326] There's a definition there that says, that, that defines alcoholism for me better than anything I've ever heard. [01:38:37.326 – 01:38:46.146] It says, "We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control their drinking." And I love that definition.

[01:38:46.146 – 01:38:49.486] I love it because it gets to the heart of the matter. [01:38:49.486 – 01:38:55.746] You know, my being alcoholic is not determined by how many times I've been in jail. [01:38:55.746 – 01:38:59.206] I have no earthly idea how many times I've been in jail. [01:38:59.206 – 01:39:03.726] I like to think I've been in the exact right number of times. [01:39:03.726 – 01:39:06.566] Because so far it's been enough. [01:39:06.566 – 01:39:08.306] And, uh, and I … [01:39:08.306 – 01:39:10.106] So I like to think it's been the, the right number. [01:39:10.106 – 01:39:12.386] Maybe one more would have been too many.

[01:39:12.386 – 01:39:15.326] Maybe one less would have been too few. [01:39:15.326 – 01:39:17.286] So I like to think it was just right. [01:39:17.286 – 01:39:18.766] That doesn't determine alcoholism. [01:39:18.766 – 01:39:24.246] I know many self-respecting, decent alcoholics who've never been in jail. [01:39:24.246 – 01:39:24.846] I mean never. [01:39:24.846 – 01:39:27.906] There are probably some in this room who've never been in jail. [01:39:27.906 – 01:39:35.026] I couldn't believe that the first time I started to understand that there are actually alcoholic … [01:39:35.026 – 01:39:37.186] We did a survey down in Charlotte one time. [01:39:37.186 – 01:39:40.806] We don't do research in AA, but we just did a nose count.

[01:39:40.806 – 01:39:43.506] There weren't many of us, so it was pretty easy to count. [01:39:43.506 – 01:39:45.066] We only had a couple hundred members I think. [01:39:45.066 – 01:39:57.286] And, uh, in 1960, we did a nose count, and one of the questions was, "Have you ever been in jail as much as one night?" 70%, [01:39:57.286 – 01:40:00.166] now this was back in the bad alcoholic days, eh? [01:40:00.166 – 01:40:03.006] I mean, this is when you had real drunks in AA. [01:40:03.006 – 01:40:06.886] 70% had never been in jail. [01:40:06.886 – 01:40:10.515] I thought, "My God, where did they drink?" You know.

[01:40:10.515 – 01:40:13.086] Must have drank in a greenhouse or something. [01:40:13.086 – 01:40:15.266] I- I could not imagine that. [01:40:15.266 – 01:40:20.206] Amazing number were still on the same job they had when they were drinking. [01:40:20.206 – 01:40:21.666] Amazing. [01:40:21.666 – 01:40:23.366] Married to the same person. [01:40:23.366 – 01:40:27.286] I never heard of, of anybody acting like that. [01:40:27.286 – 01:40:28.706] And here they were in AA, you know. [01:40:28.706 – 01:40:38.966] And, and, uh, so it was, it was important for me to, to, to, to, to start understanding that alcoholism is not about all those events [01:40:38.966 – 01:40:39.506] that happened. [01:40:39.506 – 01:40:41.486] It's about what happens on the inside.

[01:40:41.486 – 01:40:48.526] You know, realizing what it was like to have that sense of constant hopelessness and futility. [01:40:48.526 – 01:40:56.446] To be 18 or 19 or 20 years old, look at myself in the mirror, and want to throw up at what I saw. [01:40:56.446 – 01:41:03.266] Look at myself in the mirror, and my thought would be, "Why don't you just end it? [01:41:03.266 – 01:41:09.705] Why don't you just end it?" Now, you're really on a roll when the best you can come up with is you ought to just hang it up, big guy.

[01:41:09.705 – 01:41:10.356] Mm. [01:41:10.356 – 01:41:12.286] Yeah, that's, that's alcoholism. [01:41:12.286 – 01:41:18.606] That the heart and soul of alcoholism is that one little line I cited for my money. [01:41:18.606 – 01:41:28.606] "We alcoholics, men and women, have lost the ability to control their drinking." Now, I had plenty of outside stuff, but the absolute core of, [01:41:28.606 – 01:41:33.106] of, of what I'm talking about when I say I'm alcoholic is that one little simple sentence. [01:41:33.106 – 01:41:35.926] I'm a man who lost the ability to control his drinking. [01:41:35.926 – 01:41:42.686] That explains every other thing that was a part of my life, a part of my biography.

[01:41:42.686 – 01:41:44.086] That explains every bit of it. [01:41:44.086 – 01:41:48.626] It either explains or is explained by that one simple statement. [01:41:48.626 – 01:41:55.806] I'm not alcoholic because I went to jail or lost jobs or, or stum- or muffed up on, on, on careers that I might have had. [01:41:55.806 – 01:41:57.646] That's not what makes me alcoholic. [01:41:57.646 – 01:42:03.346] What makes me alcoholic is that, is that I simply cannot control my drinking. [01:42:03.346 – 01:42:04.526] I'm an alcoholic. [01:42:04.526 – 01:42:08.106] If I take a drink, I cannot predict what I'll do. [01:42:08.106 – 01:42:18.114] And so it was very important for me to get a clear understanding about, uh, uh, a- about that and understand what I'm talking about when I say

[01:42:18.114 – 01:42:18.834] I'm alcoholic. [01:42:18.834 – 01:42:25.694] And it's not a matter of how many times I've been married or woke up with somebody I didn't know or all this kind of stuff. [01:42:25.694 – 01:42:29.414] It's about, about what it's like to die on the inside. [01:42:29.414 – 01:42:39.454] And when you're an 18, 19, or 20-year-old guy and you can't look at yourself in the mirror without thinking about hanging it up because that's the best shot you got, that's, that's, uh, that's, that is not [01:42:39.454 – 01:42:40.394] the place you want to be.

[01:42:40.394 – 01:42:49.173] And so very important for me to get to that point where I understood in depth that the, that, uh, who I am and what I'm about. [01:42:49.173 – 01:42:59.494] The, um, the, the, the, uh, the behavior stuff, you know, that, that is a… [01:42:59.494 – 01:43:02.334] I mean, it's part and parcel of the cotton-picking thing. [01:43:02.334 – 01:43:12.014] Uh, but this thing of id- of identifying down deep where you live so that the differences make no difference, you know, was very, very important for, for, for, for me.

[01:43:12.014 – 01:43:16.404] And recognizing that alcoholism is an illness. [01:43:16.404 – 01:43:22.474] There's something that happens to me if I take a drink that I simply cannot control what I'll do. [01:43:22.474 – 01:43:22.894] That… [01:43:22.894 – 01:43:24.274] And that's, that's an absolute fact. [01:43:24.274 – 01:43:28.774] I can't predict how much I'll drink, how long I'll drink, where I'll go, what I'll do. [01:43:28.774 – 01:43:32.514] That there's just something that happens to me that doesn't happen to average people. [01:43:32.514 – 01:43:37.174] That's what I need to know about alcoholism, that I have a peculiar reaction to that.

[01:43:37.174 – 01:43:44.594] And, and it's, it's, it's, it's not the events that happened, it's that recognition of that's the, that's the, the core dilemma with this guy. [01:43:44.594 – 01:43:46.274] It explains everything else that happens. [01:43:46.274 – 01:43:49.494] Um, I had enough weird stuff. [01:43:49.494 – 01:43:53.054] I woke up one time married to a woman that I didn't know. [01:43:53.054 – 01:43:54.774] I mean, I didn't know her at all. [01:43:54.774 – 01:43:56.314] I never met her to my knowledge. [01:43:56.314 – 01:44:01.294] But obvious I had, uh, you know, 'cause she knew me fairly well it seemed like.

[01:44:01.294 – 01:44:08.034] And, um, when I asked her who she was, she told me that her name was Ivester. [01:44:08.034 – 01:44:14.094] Now she wasn't Ivester apparently when I got her, but it became while we were out doing whatever we were doing. [01:44:14.094 – 01:44:18.434] That's bizarre kind of stuff, you know, to, to, to, to come up with. [01:44:18.434 – 01:44:19.304] But- … [01:44:19.304 – 01:44:21.564] but that doesn't define my alcoholism, you know? [01:44:21.564 – 01:44:24.174] That it's that thing of what happens when I take a drink. [01:44:24.174 – 01:44:26.674] And it… [01:44:26.674 – 01:44:30.554] The other side of that thing is that unmanageable life.

[01:44:30.554 – 01:44:41.534] Now I'm, I'm a little about, a- a little bit about like my buddy that, um, problems are not what produce alcoholism, provided you're talking about external problems. [01:44:41.534 – 01:44:47.954] Now I'm not a causation freak at all, but I'm, I'm, I'm not the village idiot either. [01:44:47.954 – 01:44:48.514] You know? [01:44:48.514 – 01:44:58.714] I, I fully recognize that there's a great deal more to why I reacted to alcohol, alcohol like I did than just simply the fact that I like booze or like how it made me feel.

[01:44:58.714 – 01:45:00.594] Those things were true. [01:45:00.594 – 01:45:06.814] But I'm a guy, I'm somebody who believes that you learn what you live. [01:45:06.814 – 01:45:10.414] And, uh, I mean, that's obvious. [01:45:10.414 – 01:45:20.293] I mean, my God, we all go through, every one of us in this room has gone through the experience of growing up and, and, and, and we know that we're affected by the things that we experience as we're growing up. [01:45:20.293 – 01:45:24.554] And, uh, I, you know, I was a guy, I was born in this state.

[01:45:24.554 – 01:45:27.434] You know, I, uh, I wasn't down here on the nice end of it. [01:45:27.434 – 01:45:31.934] I was in Oconee County, about as far as you can go without being in Georgia. [01:45:31.934 – 01:45:35.094] And I was born there during the Depression. [01:45:35.094 – 01:45:39.913] If some folks said they weren't poor, uh, uh, I knew we were at my house. [01:45:39.913 – 01:45:42.414] A- as a little boy, I knew, man, we weren't hitting on nothing. [01:45:42.414 – 01:45:45.094] And, and I got introduced to that. [01:45:45.094 – 01:45:51.754] I, I learned how to pick cotton at five years of age and decided that would not be my career choice.

[01:45:51.754 – 01:45:57.564] Uh, and I never have even bothered to speak to another piece of cotton since- … [01:45:57.564 – 01:45:58.674] except as I was wearing it. [01:45:58.674 – 01:46:01.174] So I, I learned some important stuff there. [01:46:01.174 – 01:46:10.054] You know, we grew up in one of those hardscrabble farms, uh, in, in the Depression that, you know, my, my grandfather had run a big, a big old cotton farm like everybody over there. [01:46:10.054 – 01:46:15.874] And, uh, when business got bad, he took up bootlegging and, uh, making whiskey. [01:46:15.874 – 01:46:18.974] Now back then, that wasn't particularly a criminal thing.

[01:46:18.974 – 01:46:20.554] It was just, uh, everybody… [01:46:20.554 – 01:46:22.254] I mean, it was just openly done. [01:46:22.254 – 01:46:28.594] Uh, I can remember as a little kid when police would come to our house, not to raid, but to drink. [01:46:28.594 – 01:46:30.474] I mean, they'd come, come in the… [01:46:30.474 – 01:46:31.714] in by with Grandpa. [01:46:31.714 – 01:46:33.184] And that's, that's, uh- [01:46:33.541 – 01:46:35.941] Um, that was the environment I grew up in. [01:46:35.941 – 01:46:46.001] The, uh, the thing that, and, and, and the conditions, you know, that, that went on there were things that happened that were significant in my alcoholism, and they became much

[01:46:46.001 – 01:46:47.701] more clear as I got into recovery. [01:46:47.701 – 01:46:50.481] But that was a, it was a peculiar deal. [01:46:50.481 – 01:46:55.561] My mother was a, a, a, I guess a typical farm girl. [01:46:55.561 – 01:46:58.021] She was a, she was a, a good, a big woman. [01:46:58.021 – 01:46:59.621] A, a very fine woman. [01:46:59.621 – 01:47:01.860] Strong. [01:47:01.860 – 01:47:02.921] God knows she's strong. [01:47:02.921 – 01:47:04.701] I mean, she wouldn't argue with people. [01:47:04.701 – 01:47:05.421] She'd fight. [01:47:05.421 – 01:47:07.221] I mean, she'd fight and usually win. [01:47:07.221 – 01:47:08.280] She was a tough woman. [01:47:08.280 – 01:47:18.381] And, uh, she was married to a guy from over in Toccoa, and, uh, I never did get to know him very well.

[01:47:18.381 – 01:47:19.371] He, he was my father. [01:47:19.371 – 01:47:22.421] But he deserted the family when I was two years old. [01:47:22.421 – 01:47:25.721] And, uh, yeah, I didn't know… [01:47:25.721 – 01:47:29.261] I don't remember a lot about that, but I do remember the day he left, though. [01:47:29.261 – 01:47:32.201] I was sitting in the yard and not playing in the grass. [01:47:32.201 – 01:47:32.821] We didn't have any. [01:47:32.821 – 01:47:36.501] I was playing in the dirt, and I remember him walking off. [01:47:36.501 – 01:47:42.781] And somehow, I don't think it was a trait of alcoholism, but somehow I, I intuitively knew that he wasn't coming back.

[01:47:42.781 – 01:47:45.141] I had no clue where he was going, but I knew he wasn't coming back. [01:47:45.141 – 01:47:47.280] And I don't know how I knew that, but I did. [01:47:47.280 – 01:47:49.601] And so he w- he walked away, and he never did. [01:47:49.601 – 01:47:52.421] I saw him twice in my formative years. [01:47:52.421 – 01:47:54.461] In my elementary school years, I saw him twice. [01:47:54.461 – 01:47:57.881] Met him on the street when we were down visiting family or whatever. [01:47:57.881 – 01:48:00.881] And both times he introduced me to him. [01:48:00.881 – 01:48:02.921] Might as well introduced me to the guy selling newspapers.

[01:48:02.921 – 01:48:03.941] You know, it didn't mean a thing. [01:48:03.941 – 01:48:07.301] Had no significant, so no significance to me at all. [01:48:07.301 – 01:48:10.801] And it was just a, a ship in the night. [01:48:10.801 – 01:48:13.261] Well, that's no big deal, is it? [01:48:13.261 – 01:48:15.201] Yes, it is a big deal. [01:48:15.201 – 01:48:20.621] You know, I would submit to you that when a father deserts a two-year-old child, that's not without damage. [01:48:20.621 – 01:48:22.561] That is not without damage. [01:48:22.561 – 01:48:26.281] And, uh, now certainly I didn't, was not aware of that at the time. [01:48:26.281 – 01:48:27.060] Had no clue.

[01:48:27.060 – 01:48:30.181] But it, it was not gonna go away. [01:48:30.181 – 01:48:35.581] And, uh, and so there were a lot of things that, that ensued from that early environment. [01:48:35.581 – 01:48:41.171] You know, the depression and, and, and, and, and having to look hard for something to eat, and Christmas- … [01:48:41.171 – 01:48:42.681] was a bag of peppermint candy. [01:48:42.681 – 01:48:44.941] Those, those kind of things all have their effects. [01:48:44.941 – 01:48:53.361] And, and so based on those experiences, the, the one other one that had a, a fairly significant, uh, thing to me was Bible Belt religion.

[01:48:53.361 – 01:48:57.001] Now, Bible Belt religion has been marvelous for a lot of people. [01:48:57.001 – 01:48:58.001] I was not one of them. [01:48:58.001 – 01:49:03.061] And so as a child, I remember when, when my folks would drag me off to church. [01:49:03.061 – 01:49:04.781] Never with my consent. [01:49:04.781 – 01:49:12.081] But they would drag me off to church, and, uh, I was not r- raptured by that stuff. [01:49:12.081 – 01:49:14.621] I was traumatized by it. [01:49:14.621 – 01:49:16.061] And, and I, I could not… [01:49:16.061 – 01:49:19.180] Uh, as a child I, I couldn't, and even as adult I couldn't.

[01:49:19.180 – 01:49:23.301] But as a child, I couldn't understand what all the commotion was about. [01:49:23.301 – 01:49:33.381] And when I see people leaping up and jumping and running up the aisles and beating drums and stuff like that and shaking snakes, that made no sense to me as a child. [01:49:33.381 – 01:49:40.721] And, uh, now it's pretty tough to deal with a conflict as serious as that, you know, consciously. [01:49:40.721 – 01:49:44.601] And so I felt, you know, really fearful about how I felt. [01:49:44.601 – 01:49:46.321] Felt deeply ashamed of how I felt.

[01:49:46.321 – 01:49:50.101] Never talked with anybody about it for many, many years. [01:49:50.101 – 01:49:59.281] But it, uh, what I decided before I even started school was that if I got big enough, I wouldn't go back to any of that, and I kept that. [01:49:59.281 – 01:50:03.401] Now, it was a serious decision by a child, but it was a serious decision. [01:50:03.401 – 01:50:12.061] I never went back into anything called organized religion till I was 11 years sober, before I even went into a church. [01:50:12.061 – 01:50:13.621] And so it was a de…

[01:50:13.621 – 01:50:16.861] It wasn't a casual kind of a, just an encounter. [01:50:16.861 – 01:50:18.141] It was a significant thing. [01:50:18.141 – 01:50:21.161] It had a lot to do with the formation of this guy. [01:50:21.161 – 01:50:26.581] Well, those are the kinds of, of, of, of conditions, you know. [01:50:26.581 – 01:50:28.961] And so I learned what I lived, eh? [01:50:28.961 – 01:50:30.061] I, I learned that. [01:50:30.061 – 01:50:36.581] And, and so what I learned was a number of things that we call defects of character. [01:50:36.581 – 01:50:41.461] And, uh, the seedbed for that was in that kind of an early environment.

[01:50:41.461 – 01:50:44.741] I'm not a causation freak, but I'm not the village idiot. [01:50:44.741 – 01:50:52.701] And I do realize that, you know, when my dad left, that, that has a significant impact, even though I didn't understand the impact. [01:50:52.701 – 01:51:01.221] There's a great sense of insecurity that goes with that, a lot of anxiety that goes with that, a lot of shame and guilt, and I hadn't done anything. [01:51:01.221 – 01:51:08.601] But I know when I was growing up and I'd be around other guys that, uh, were talking about stuff they did with their dad, I had nothing to say.

[01:51:08.601 – 01:51:13.751] If somebody asked me, then I'd have to change the subject or walk away, you know. [01:51:13.751 – 01:51:20.041] So that has enormous impact on what formed me and the peculiar traits that made up Tom I. [01:51:20.041 – 01:51:22.410] And, and so a lot of things. [01:51:22.410 – 01:51:30.441] And that guilt that was as- fear that was associated with that sort of revolt against organized religion, those are not casual things. [01:51:30.441 – 01:51:34.901] Those are things that have i- i- i- indelible impact on, on a life. [01:51:34.901 – 01:51:39.441] My, uh, my, uh, my …

[01:51:39.441 – 01:51:46.801] I can't believe you've taken the whole morning, and, uh, we're not even gonna get through the first step. [01:51:46.801 – 01:51:48.481] We got- I want to speed up. [01:51:48.481 – 01:51:49.861] Could we meet till Tuesday? [01:51:49.861 – 01:51:57.721] I- But the, uh, I don't mind spending time on the first step because I think it's the foundation. [01:51:57.721 – 01:52:01.201] It truly is the, the, the foundation upon which this program built. [01:52:01.201 – 01:52:03.821] Without that we're, we're, we're in deep trouble. [01:52:03.821 – 01:52:10.941] But it, it, the thing I'm, I was talking about what forms this thing, or what is it that caused me to be such a sitting duck for problems with alcohol.

[01:52:10.941 – 01:52:17.401] And, uh, you know, when, when my dad left, and my mother was a, a s- a sociable lady. [01:52:17.401 – 01:52:18.901] I, I think she liked men okay. [01:52:18.901 – 01:52:21.061] She married several of them. [01:52:21.061 – 01:52:24.201] And, uh, not at the same time, but she… [01:52:24.201 – 01:52:26.501] First one she married was a little old… [01:52:26.501 – 01:52:27.521] I don't mean anything. [01:52:27.521 – 01:52:28.961] Well, I, I guess I do. [01:52:28.961 – 01:52:35.597] But I, I don't mean to be disparaging about people's problems, but- He was a runt. [01:52:35.597 – 01:52:40.117] I, I mean, he was just a little runt of a guy by, by the name of Alvin.

[01:52:40.117 – 01:52:44.327] And I swear to God, he's one of the most coarse, vulgar peop- … [01:52:44.327 – 01:52:46.317] I don't mean his language, I mean him. [01:52:46.317 – 01:52:47.917] He was just a vulgar human. [01:52:47.917 – 01:52:55.857] And, uh, that sucker came in, and, uh, I'm maybe five years old, or four or five years old. [01:52:55.857 – 01:53:01.237] My sister used to be seven years older than me. [01:53:01.237 – 01:53:03.037] We're now the same age somehow. [01:53:03.037 – 01:53:05.517] But, uh, we … [01:53:05.517 – 01:53:09.897] She was old enough when that thing came in, she called it Daddy.

[01:53:09.897 – 01:53:11.797] Uh, no, she called it Alvin. [01:53:11.797 – 01:53:14.097] I had to call it Daddy. [01:53:14.097 – 01:53:18.777] And every time I called that dude Daddy, I mean, I would just flat burn. [01:53:18.777 – 01:53:21.036] I mean, I'm talking about a little kid. [01:53:21.036 – 01:53:22.937] I mean, this was a doofus man. [01:53:22.937 – 01:53:26.657] And, uh, so the only decent … [01:53:26.657 – 01:53:31.337] Well, anyway, he, uh, we moved, we, we moved to North Carolina. [01:53:31.337 – 01:53:34.217] We got out of the cotton field into the cotton mill. [01:53:34.217 – 01:53:37.577] And, uh, we were, we were destined to be in cotton.

[01:53:37.577 – 01:53:39.496] And so lived with Alvin. [01:53:39.496 – 01:53:40.937] I, I, I flattened… [01:53:40.937 – 01:53:42.797] I really did not like that guy. [01:53:42.797 – 01:53:44.287] He finally died. [01:53:44.287 – 01:53:46.037] That was the most decent thing he ever did. [01:53:46.037 – 01:53:50.157] And , and, and I don't even like him dead. [01:53:50.157 – 01:53:51.977] I tell you, I, I don't like him dead. [01:53:51.977 – 01:53:52.837] He… [01:53:52.837 – 01:53:57.897] Pr- probably the untrained mind would consider that a resentment, but it, it's- May be. [01:53:57.897 – 01:53:58.357] It may. [01:53:58.357 – 01:54:00.697] I'm not gonna totally get rid of it. [01:54:00.697 – 01:54:02.337] I'm not gonna be disabled by it, though.

[01:54:02.337 – 01:54:05.117] But he, he, he, he died. [01:54:05.117 – 01:54:10.817] And, uh, I'd, I'd always sworn that I was just anxious for the day I'd get big enough, I was gonna knock him out. [01:54:10.817 – 01:54:13.177] I, I meant to take that dude on. [01:54:13.177 – 01:54:16.617] But then when I got big enough, I was too big and went off to army. [01:54:16.617 – 01:54:18.317] I, you can't come whooping a dwarf. [01:54:18.317 – 01:54:22.137] And, uh, so anyway, I never did get to whoop him. [01:54:22.137 – 01:54:23.057] He, he died. [01:54:23.057 – 01:54:26.357] He's, he's buried over by Lake Hartwell over there somewhere.

[01:54:26.357 – 01:54:28.557] I've never gone over to visit. [01:54:28.557 – 01:54:31.997] Once in a while I'll stop by to make sure he hadn't clawed out. [01:54:31.997 – 01:54:33.917] Yeah, get, he's still there. [01:54:33.917 – 01:54:38.477] And, uh, it, it, that does sound a little like a resentment. [01:54:38.477 – 01:54:41.797] A lot. [01:54:41.797 – 01:54:44.097] Yeah, a little bit. [01:54:44.097 – 01:54:45.077] Yeah. [01:54:45.077 – 01:54:47.457] But he, uh, you know, Alvin and I are at peace now. [01:54:47.457 – 01:54:56.836] I, I kid around about that a little bit, but I wasn't kidding at the time, I guarantee you, that growing up with that kind of thing, with the absence of a real dad and then this thing coming in and acting like one.

[01:54:56.836 – 01:55:07.517] You know, the result was that in, uh, that, that in my entire formative years as a child and in, and, and, and into, and on into high school, I [01:55:07.517 – 01:55:13.697] never had a serious conversation with a grown man till I was a grown man. [01:55:13.697 – 01:55:19.197] That's not without a little heavy duty pay. [01:55:19.197 – 01:55:24.637] Never went fishing, hunting, anything with a grown man till I was a grown man. [01:55:24.637 – 01:55:27.817] And that is, is, is not without impact. [01:55:27.817 – 01:55:37.817] And, and so it was a lot of what set up what we call defects of character, where I just developed, the, the, the response to that was to develop, you know, a sense of fear, a sense of

[01:55:37.817 – 01:55:40.037] anger, a sense of guilt, of shame. [01:55:40.037 – 01:55:46.177] Hadn't done anything, but they were just the natural products of trying to adapt to that kind of an environment. [01:55:46.177 – 01:55:54.577] Um, that I grew up essentially in a, uh, in a female world. [01:55:54.577 – 01:55:57.877] Now, there were interchangeable guys that would come in. [01:55:57.877 – 01:56:00.677] Mother would love to marry, but she never did stay married very long. [01:56:00.677 – 01:56:05.237] And, uh, nev- never really had a decent husband till her last one. [01:56:05.237 – 01:56:09.437] And, but anyway, they, they, none of those folks ever had any real meaning in my life.

[01:56:09.437 – 01:56:15.697] So I grew up in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a setting that was dominated, but it was a feminine world. [01:56:15.697 – 01:56:17.457] And that's okay. [01:56:17.457 – 01:56:19.377] I mean, I'm, I'm very fond of women. [01:56:19.377 – 01:56:24.797] And, uh, married to one 41 years right, right now. [01:56:24.797 – 01:56:26.217] And that's unreal. [01:56:26.217 – 01:56:27.437] That's what I say, Danielle. [01:56:27.437 – 01:56:30.357] I guess she doesn't necessarily say that, but I do. [01:56:30.357 – 01:56:32.717] 41 years, unbelievable. [01:56:32.717 – 01:56:42.517] And, uh, but now it's a peculiar thing when you grow up in a feminine world, and you don't have a male, significant male in your life.

[01:56:42.517 – 01:56:45.597] There's some uneasy qualities that go with that. [01:56:45.597 – 01:56:55.697] And, uh, uh, I, I never understood this till later on in the program when I got into inventory and started to understand something about defects of character and what [01:56:55.697 – 01:56:56.237] drives them. [01:56:56.237 – 01:57:06.357] I ne- I never had understood why it was so difficult for me to have good relationships with people, close, meaningful relationships, to have [01:57:06.357 – 01:57:08.517] true friendships that were trust-based. [01:57:08.517 – 01:57:10.037] Always wondered about that. [01:57:10.037 – 01:57:12.627] And I never had been able to understand that till I got-

[01:57:12.902 – 01:57:14.142] Into taking a look at that. [01:57:14.142 – 01:57:22.402] Because when y- growing up in a feminine world, particularly I, I had difficulty with relationships with anybody, but particularly with women. [01:57:22.402 – 01:57:27.182] And I was always a guy that was, was, uh, just like anybody would be. [01:57:27.182 – 01:57:29.962] I was involved with women as much as I could be. [01:57:29.962 – 01:57:37.502] And, uh, but I would never be able to make a truly committed relationship. [01:57:37.502 – 01:57:39.142] Truly committed. [01:57:39.142 – 01:57:47.722] Now, it would be passionate and lively and warm and all of this kind of stuff, but when it would come right down to making a real commitment…

[01:57:47.722 – 01:57:49.682] Now, I didn't think about it. [01:57:49.682 – 01:57:54.462] I just intuitively reacted that way, and I would, and I would pull out. [01:57:54.462 – 01:57:56.262] I would never make a real commitment. [01:57:56.262 – 01:58:00.162] And I never did really go into analysis about that. [01:58:00.162 – 01:58:10.622] It just was one of those things that, that I just did not think I was capable of doing, as I was not capable of doing it, and never did understand that till I got into doing inventory and understanding [01:58:10.622 – 01:58:14.082] something about the things that, that constitute this.

[01:58:14.082 – 01:58:16.122] What is it that sets up? [01:58:16.122 – 01:58:20.122] I understand what happens if I take a drink, but what happens if I don't? [01:58:20.122 – 01:58:25.642] You know, those things that I'm talking about are, are what I think we call alcoholism. [01:58:25.642 – 01:58:36.142] You know, those things that, that, that drive me in such a way that my mind has, can, and might again [01:58:36.142 – 01:58:39.522] turn irresistibly to the thought of a drink. [01:58:39.522 – 01:58:42.682] I've had that experience many times. [01:58:42.682 – 01:58:52.682] Not many, but half a dozen at least, where my, my sobriety has been on the line, and only an act of God has kept me from taking that fatal

[01:58:52.682 – 01:58:53.062] step. [01:58:53.062 – 01:59:03.222] So th-th-this, this seedbed of, of, of, of, you know, like when I started to drink, just like my buddy was saying here, what that stuff did for me [01:59:03.222 – 01:59:05.682] was not create problems, it solved problems. [01:59:05.682 – 01:59:13.182] Man, it let me rise above that kind of stuff and turn those liabilities into assets, and I absolutely just took off. [01:59:13.182 – 01:59:15.622] I would had to have been the village idiot to not drink. [01:59:15.622 – 01:59:25.622] And so I just, I took to it with a purple passion because it solved those problems, gave me the sense of confidence and well-being so that I could not only fit in

[01:59:25.622 – 01:59:28.742] with a crowd, I could take it over if I got half a chance. [01:59:28.742 – 01:59:33.122] And so it, uh, it, it really meant something. [01:59:33.122 – 01:59:40.162] And so that, that, that thing of just intuitively going back. [01:59:40.162 – 01:59:50.202] When I, when I got sober, the, the, uh, you know, I wanna get, try to hit these two points about this thing, about, you know, what happens if I drink, and that's pretty obvious, but [01:59:50.202 – 01:59:51.262] what happens if I don't? [01:59:51.262 – 02:00:01.322] And, uh, I never really understood this till I experienced it, but there were times in probably, oh, the first five

[02:00:01.322 – 02:00:11.442] years, six years or so of my sobriety, that there would come times when the blackness would just close in and, and I would be [02:00:11.442 – 02:00:16.422] filled with this absolute obsession to drink. [02:00:16.422 – 02:00:21.022] Now, I'm not talking about wouldn't it be nice to go chat with the boys. [02:00:21.022 – 02:00:22.022] I'm not talking about that. [02:00:22.022 – 02:00:24.402] Wouldn't it be nice to have a cold one. [02:00:24.402 – 02:00:30.302] I'm talking about an absolute gut-wrenching obsession to drink. [02:00:30.302 – 02:00:41.042] Tell you the first time I ever experienced for real and knew what I was experiencing, I was, I, I was in, I was as, as back in North Carolina and

[02:00:41.042 – 02:00:48.862] I had to make a trip up to Michigan, and it was kind of a nerve-wracking trip, but, but that was the thing. [02:00:48.862 – 02:00:56.842] I'd, I, I flew up, up to Michigan, and it was the first jet I'd ever been on. [02:00:56.842 – 02:00:59.042] They, they'd invented those while I was drunk, I guess. [02:00:59.042 – 02:01:00.342] And there they were. [02:01:00.342 – 02:01:02.682] I never have believed they'd fly, but they do. [02:01:02.682 – 02:01:04.222] Fly 'em all the time. [02:01:04.222 – 02:01:06.462] And I got on that plane. [02:01:06.462 – 02:01:07.262] I was… [02:01:07.262 – 02:01:10.222] Now, I was as active in AA as a human could be.

[02:01:10.222 – 02:01:12.562] There's no way you could be more active. [02:01:12.562 – 02:01:13.542] I had… [02:01:13.542 – 02:01:18.542] When, when, when I'd gotten out of the institution, there was no AA where I went. [02:01:18.542 – 02:01:24.762] There was one old man, and, uh, thank God for him, but his, his fire was out. [02:01:24.762 – 02:01:34.381] And so we- But we had, we had, we had work to do and, and so I was as active as a human could be in every sense of the word, round the clock. [02:01:34.381 – 02:01:36.692] And you could not be more active.

[02:01:36.692 – 02:01:38.502] And, and so I'm on the plane. [02:01:38.502 – 02:01:41.622] I'm going to, going to, uh, back to, up to Michigan. [02:01:41.622 – 02:01:46.172] I'm sitting there and I'm… [02:01:46.172 – 02:01:51.862] The, the, the lady comes with that buggy, you know, up, coming up and down, announcing what she's got on the buggy. [02:01:51.862 – 02:01:55.342] Like, you know, she's explaining to people what's in that bottle like they don't know. [02:01:55.342 – 02:01:58.102] And, uh, so she explained all that stuff. [02:01:58.102 – 02:02:06.102] All at once, I was overcome with an absolute obsession to drink.

[02:02:06.102 – 02:02:10.382] I knew I was gonna drink, and I didn't want to drink. [02:02:10.382 – 02:02:14.202] Now, that's a, that's a, that's a convoluted way of looking. [02:02:14.202 – 02:02:15.282] That's alcoholism. [02:02:15.282 – 02:02:20.182] I knew that I was gonna drink, and God knows I didn't want to. [02:02:20.182 – 02:02:23.062] Now, I'm not talking about, you know, I'm way up here in the air. [02:02:23.062 – 02:02:24.002] Nobody would know. [02:02:24.002 – 02:02:26.802] I'm not talking about that stuff, or wouldn't a drink be nice. [02:02:26.802 – 02:02:28.762] Didn't even enter the equation. [02:02:28.762 – 02:02:31.442] I'm sitting there on the horns of a dilemma.

[02:02:31.442 – 02:02:38.782] If you ever read about old Victory with that cartoon of Walker pacing back and forth in front of that saloon with, with sweat popping, that was me. [02:02:38.782 – 02:02:40.822] So I'm sitting there. [02:02:40.822 – 02:02:42.901] I reached in my pocket. [02:02:42.901 – 02:02:45.142] And you can tell how long ago it was. [02:02:45.142 – 02:02:46.262] A drink was a dollar. [02:02:46.262 – 02:02:48.862] I, I heard her saying that to people, a dollar. [02:02:48.862 – 02:02:53.722] So I took a dollar bill out of my pocket, and I'm sitting there. [02:02:53.722 – 02:02:56.882] Now, I'm the spiritual giant of AA in my town.

[02:02:56.882 – 02:02:59.422] What AA there was, but I'm not… [02:02:59.422 – 02:03:00.961] It didn't take many to be a giant. [02:03:00.961 – 02:03:02.362] It was just me and that old man. [02:03:02.362 – 02:03:04.042] And a lot of newcomers. [02:03:04.042 – 02:03:08.382] So, but I'm as active as I can be. [02:03:08.382 – 02:03:18.150] I haven't had any thought of a drink for the longest time, and I've got a gut-wrenching obsession- Not that, not drink would be nice. [02:03:18.150 – 02:03:19.610] None of that stuff. [02:03:19.610 – 02:03:21.850] Or maybe I'm not really alcoholic. [02:03:21.850 – 02:03:22.970] Baloney. [02:03:22.970 – 02:03:24.410] Yeah, I was gonna drink. [02:03:24.410 – 02:03:28.130] The obsession to drink absolutely overwhelmed me.

[02:03:28.130 – 02:03:38.490] And I took that dollar, put it in my pocket, I, and I thought, "My God, yeah, what do you do?" Well, and thank God I listened in meetings, and I remembered [02:03:38.490 – 02:03:39.250] stuff I'd heard. [02:03:39.250 – 02:03:43.230] What do you do when you're right up against it? [02:03:43.230 – 02:03:46.050] One, is remember your last drunk. [02:03:46.050 – 02:03:50.030] And so I thought back, and I, I remembered what I could remember of my last drunk. [02:03:50.030 – 02:03:51.750] It was a mess like they all were mostly. [02:03:51.750 – 02:03:54.610] Remembered that, helped a little bit.

[02:03:54.610 – 02:03:55.950] But that's not enough. [02:03:55.950 – 02:03:57.610] Bad memories won't suffice. [02:03:57.610 – 02:04:04.150] And then I remembered what I'd heard over and over and over, when you're right up against it, you don't know what to do, pray. [02:04:04.150 – 02:04:06.850] And so that's what I did. [02:04:06.850 – 02:04:07.390] I prayed. [02:04:07.390 – 02:04:13.750] And simplest yet most profound prayer a man's ever heard of, God, help me. [02:04:13.750 – 02:04:15.070] I meant it. [02:04:15.070 – 02:04:15.630] I meant it. [02:04:15.630 – 02:04:19.130] God did, too. [02:04:19.130 – 02:04:24.309] The obsession was gone as quickly as it came. [02:04:24.309 – 02:04:30.150] And when the girl came, came up there, she, I asked her this kind of like dumb question.

[02:04:30.150 – 02:04:39.330] I said, "You have coffee?" She, she said, "Yeah, we got coffee." "How much is it?" She said, "Free." I said, "Man, give me two of them." I can't… [02:04:39.330 – 02:04:43.090] That's- But that's, that's simple. [02:04:43.090 – 02:04:43.670] Yeah, but that's… [02:04:43.670 – 02:04:46.610] You know, how many people bite the dust over stuff like that? [02:04:46.610 – 02:04:47.110] Yeah. [02:04:47.110 – 02:04:48.530] Good God, how many people? [02:04:48.530 – 02:04:58.670] And it's that thing of being prepared and understanding the dilemma of alcoholism, that drinking certainly stops the hangovers and the DTs and seeing monkeys

[02:04:58.670 – 02:04:59.070] and stuff. [02:04:59.070 – 02:05:00.450] It stops that. [02:05:00.450 – 02:05:01.180] Mm-hmm. [02:05:01.180 – 02:05:07.410] But alcoholism goes on, and all it takes is just enough of an opening for that to come out and look out. [02:05:07.410 – 02:05:10.370] And, and so it can happen u- over, over and over. [02:05:10.370 – 02:05:12.290] I haven't had that for a long time now. [02:05:12.290 – 02:05:15.170] I, I, uh, I, I've had it sometimes. [02:05:15.170 – 02:05:21.170] I, I d- had one, one time I was leaving an AA meeting on Saturday night. [02:05:21.170 – 02:05:25.169] I'd, I'd gone over to a, to another town to speak at a, a Saturday night meeting.

[02:05:25.169 – 02:05:32.330] And I'm on the way back, and all at once, my steering wheel started turning into a joint. [02:05:32.330 – 02:05:37.799] And I said, "Whoa, here, man." And I'm actually fighting with myself going down through there. [02:05:37.799 – 02:05:47.910] Now, it wasn't as difficult, but what I found is every time I've come to that place where that obsession, the only thing I have to do is use the tools I have, and that's just ask God to help me. [02:05:47.910 – 02:05:56.330] There, there's sometimes that it just looks like there's no future, that it just looks like there's no tomorrow, that it's like going through a long, dark tunnel.

[02:05:56.330 – 02:06:01.650] And, um, it's a nice frothy feelings, and now it's about… [02:06:01.650 – 02:06:07.790] The two things I learned from that is when I've got that, that, that gorilla on my back like that, two things. [02:06:07.790 – 02:06:13.590] One is to pray, and the other is to hold on. [02:06:13.590 – 02:06:16.799] Both of them important, to pray and hold on. [02:06:16.799 – 02:06:19.730] Pray as if it all depends on God. [02:06:19.730 – 02:06:24.430] Hold on as if it all, all depends on me. [02:06:24.430 – 02:06:27.429] And that's gotten me through ev- every one that I've had.

[02:06:27.429 – 02:06:34.250] And, and so there have been a, a, a lot of those that, but I haven't had them now for many, many years. [02:06:34.250 – 02:06:42.710] Uh, but it, but I don't think that I'm cured, uh, that, that that'll never come back, but I'll guarantee you I won't be unprepared. [02:06:42.710 – 02:06:43.790] I'll be ready. [02:06:43.790 – 02:06:46.230] So that's the nature of it. [02:06:46.230 – 02:06:47.790] I didn't used to be alcoholic. [02:06:47.790 – 02:06:49.590] I am right now. [02:06:49.590 – 02:06:51.910] And the book says it well, I think. [02:06:51.910 – 02:06:53.610] We'll get there later on by Tuesday.

[02:06:53.610 – 02:07:03.630] Back in there it says that, uh, that our protection is that as long as we maintain that spiritual condition, [02:07:03.630 – 02:07:07.190] and the minute we let it down, all bets are off. [02:07:07.190 – 02:07:08.410] All bets are off. [02:07:08.410 – 02:07:10.770] So I didn't used to be an alcoholic. [02:07:10.770 – 02:07:11.930] I still am very much. [02:07:11.930 – 02:07:19.530] On a beautiful, one of the few remaining beautiful Saturday afternoons at the beach, and here we are. [02:07:19.530 – 02:07:20.970] That's right. [02:07:20.970 – 02:07:22.920] Uh, had a great little trip down there. [02:07:22.920 – 02:07:27.190] Half the time I get around a beach, I already get down there to see the ocean, so did get a quick peek.

[02:07:27.190 – 02:07:37.190] Um, what we're gonna, I, I don't know how we're gonna, how well we'll do with it, but, uh, based on what we've already done, Tuesday might be a realistic [02:07:37.190 – 02:07:38.410] timetable for this thing. [02:07:38.410 – 02:07:39.770] But we'll beat that. [02:07:39.770 – 02:07:42.390] We'll, we'll quit at quitting time. [02:07:42.390 – 02:07:51.530] And, uh, what I want to do now is just sort of, sort of cap off two and, and, and, and three and then move into, uh, to, uh- [02:07:52.397 – 02:07:53.737] Our im-inventory process. [02:07:53.737 – 02:08:02.337] The, uh, the, uh, awf-awfully critical, I, I think my buddy, uh, said it well.

[02:08:02.337 – 02:08:12.177] I wanna just, just visit that just a little bit, and then, uh, see if I can't enlist your concern a-about something that s-sort of behooves us to, to take a look at. [02:08:12.177 – 02:08:13.957] At least I think so. [02:08:13.957 – 02:08:23.977] Um, I was the guy that, uh, th-th-that mentioned early on I was in full rebellion from, uh, anything to do with organized religion. [02:08:23.977 – 02:08:30.537] That's one reason I'm so deeply grateful that we approach it like we do in Alcoholics Anonymous with a God as we understand Him.

[02:08:30.537 – 02:08:40.557] Uh, I had the pleasure of knowing one of the guys who helped write the book, a guy named Jim Burwell, and he spent a lot of time in North [02:08:40.557 – 02:08:44.237] Carolina, and I met him down there and, and heard him describe… [02:08:44.237 – 02:08:54.457] He w- I think Jim was the key author of that, that phrase, "God as we understand Him," which I think is probably, uh, first or second [02:08:54.457 – 02:08:58.237] in terms of important words in our, in our whole program of recovery.

[02:08:58.237 – 02:09:00.137] Vitally, vitally important. [02:09:00.137 – 02:09:06.197] And, uh, and, and Jim described those near brawls they had over that whole business. [02:09:06.197 – 02:09:12.237] You know, like so many wars are based in religion, our earliest AA wars were based in, uh, in religion, too. [02:09:12.237 – 02:09:22.397] And, uh, and, and so thank God it wound up with that, uh, that simple little term that opens the door to anybody, including [02:09:22.397 – 02:09:24.397] a guy like me that's in full rebellion. [02:09:24.397 – 02:09:25.757] Thank God for that. [02:09:25.757 – 02:09:35.857] You know, thank God we didn't have any kind of a code or, or thing that we had dogma or creed that we had to, to, to, uh, to adapt, and, and it w- we're, we're free to

[02:09:35.857 – 02:09:39.877] start wherever we start and believe as we're capable of believing. [02:09:39.877 – 02:09:42.377] A-and I am deeply grateful for that. [02:09:42.377 – 02:09:51.077] Um, that we didn't have any rigidity or conformity or religiosity, that it was basically spiritual, and we try to live it that way. [02:09:51.077 – 02:10:01.057] Uh, you know, the first power that I ever, uh, uh, really believed in in my life was one that I, that I, uh, would have never imagined. [02:10:01.057 – 02:10:08.037] It was d- like many other alcoholics that I've met, it was the power that I felt in, in my group of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[02:10:08.037 – 02:10:15.237] Now, I, I didn't– it wasn't the group itself, but it was the power that permeated that group and the power that drove that group. [02:10:15.237 – 02:10:18.137] And that was the first power I ever believed in. [02:10:18.137 – 02:10:20.077] I couldn't have described it to anybody. [02:10:20.077 – 02:10:20.797] Didn't need to. [02:10:20.797 – 02:10:29.257] You know, I think part of my dilemma in trying to adopt a religious life was trying to make God fit on an eight-by-ten glossy print, and it doesn't fit. [02:10:29.257 – 02:10:30.817] It doesn't fit at all.

[02:10:30.817 – 02:10:37.997] And then when I quit trying to define and then started to identify a power that I truly believed in, uh, that's where I found it. [02:10:37.997 – 02:10:39.377] It was right there in, in that group. [02:10:39.377 – 02:10:49.437] When, when I watched people who by their own description had committed acts of depravity that defied imagination, and watch those same people become loving servants. [02:10:49.437 – 02:10:52.497] Powerful, powerful e-evidence, you know. [02:10:52.497 – 02:10:54.757] And so that, that was the first power I believed in. [02:10:54.757 – 02:10:55.957] I didn't try to name it.

[02:10:55.957 – 02:10:58.857] It was, it was, it was God as I understood God. [02:10:58.857 – 02:11:01.156] That's the first power I ever prayed to. [02:11:01.156 – 02:11:03.637] And when I started praying, I didn't know how. [02:11:03.637 – 02:11:06.217] I, I, just like everything I've ever done in my life, I overdid it. [02:11:06.217 – 02:11:09.877] I either didn't pray at all or prayed for the world. [02:11:09.877 – 02:11:11.037] I mean, I prayed for everything. [02:11:11.037 – 02:11:12.357] Crop failure in India. [02:11:12.357 – 02:11:14.157] It didn't matter what it was. [02:11:14.157 – 02:11:14.517] If the… [02:11:14.517 – 02:11:16.477] I would pray for it big time. [02:11:16.477 – 02:11:20.237] And, uh, and, and so that was a start, eh?

[02:11:20.237 – 02:11:20.937] That was a start. [02:11:20.937 – 02:11:24.777] I was starting to see that there was a power greater than me that could in fact restore me to sanity. [02:11:24.777 – 02:11:29.497] And, and so just from a practical standpoint, I am gonna kinda rush through this a little bit. [02:11:29.497 – 02:11:35.097] Not because it's not important, but because we got some other stuff to do, too, and Mitchell says I screwed up the time. [02:11:35.097 – 02:11:37.457] I've gotta rush through. [02:11:37.457 – 02:11:46.877] We, uh, we, uh, you know, then coming to believe that there's a power greater than myself, uh, followed by, you know, so what?

[02:11:46.877 – 02:11:51.957] Then we made a decision to turn our will and lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. [02:11:51.957 – 02:12:00.137] And, uh, for a guy like me, that was a critically important thing to, to, to listen to what it was saying. [02:12:00.137 – 02:12:04.297] Not to what I ran from as a child in South Carolina. [02:12:04.297 – 02:12:06.457] That's not what I'm turning over to. [02:12:06.457 – 02:12:10.397] Uh, then or now, it's not what I'm turning over to. [02:12:10.397 – 02:12:19.857] But I'm, I'm, what I'm turning my will and life over to is God as I understand God, and not as what I had, had been in conflict with forever.

[02:12:19.857 – 02:12:21.517] That was very, very important for me. [02:12:21.517 – 02:12:27.897] And, uh, and then once, once that was in place, uh, then I'm ready to move on. [02:12:27.897 – 02:12:29.837] Just like the book says, I'm ready for some action. [02:12:29.837 – 02:12:37.437] I tell you, the, uh, the third, the third step, we got a, a nice prayer there that, uh… [02:12:37.437 – 02:12:47.497] You know, I mentioned, I was talking about that book, the, the book, first book workshop I did, that, that it was such a huge turning point for, uh, for, for that lady in our group.

[02:12:47.497 – 02:12:52.017] There are thousands and thousands of ways of doing the third step. [02:12:52.017 – 02:12:53.587] Uh, thousands and thousands of ways. [02:12:53.587 – 02:12:56.537] And I've done it in every way imaginable. [02:12:56.537 – 02:13:00.737] I can, uh, I've done it in the hall with a newcomer that was at his first meeting. [02:13:00.737 – 02:13:10.977] Done it out, uh, one of the finest third steps I ever did was on a beautiful lake up in Minnesota with about twenty-five or thirty Young Turks in AA who wanted to get around [02:13:10.977 – 02:13:14.307] to join hands around that, that body of water and do the third step prayer.

[02:13:14.307 – 02:13:15.997] One of the most beautiful experiences ever. [02:13:15.997 – 02:13:18.937] And so there are tons and tons of ways of doing it. [02:13:18.937 – 02:13:27.737] I think one of the, the simplest ways that I engage the third step prayer and, and put it into motion is the prayer that we open our meetings with so often. [02:13:27.737 – 02:13:28.857] That Serenity Prayer. [02:13:28.857 – 02:13:34.517] That's exactly what the prayer is saying, i-is, is to grant me the serenity to accept what I can't change. [02:13:34.517 – 02:13:37.397] Change it if I can and have enough sense to know the difference.

[02:13:37.397 – 02:13:40.537] And, and so it's a good way to engage that prayer. [02:13:40.537 – 02:13:44.737] And, and so it's not some gr- big mystical thing. [02:13:44.737 – 02:13:49.617] It's just a matter of getting in tune with what I believe so that I'm free and flowing and it's natural. [02:13:49.617 – 02:13:53.677] Uh, I do, uh, I won't say much about this. [02:13:53.677 – 02:13:54.957] May come back later. [02:13:54.957 – 02:13:58.829] But the, uh- One normally. [02:13:58.829 – 02:14:05.849] You know, the, the day I like to, way I like to start my day is, uh, as some of y'all know, I conned my wife into…

[02:14:05.849 – 02:14:10.809] well, I didn't con her in, I just sorta pushed her in, to, uh, buying a pond. [02:14:10.809 – 02:14:14.229] I, I, I ordered it, but she paid for it. [02:14:14.229 – 02:14:23.269] And I told her it was her 33rd wedding anniversary gift, and, uh, she, she did not catch the humor of that at all. [02:14:23.269 – 02:14:25.189] But she paid it though anyway. [02:14:25.189 – 02:14:32.529] And I wanted that pond because one of the things, just like walking down to that ocean, that, uh, that's just such a nice feeling.

[02:14:32.529 – 02:14:40.129] Uh, that s- that sort of motion of the ocean and get the rhythm and get the feel and see the vista of what, uh, what, how much world is out there. [02:14:40.129 – 02:14:44.709] And, uh, uh, water has a great soothing effect, so she got that pond. [02:14:44.709 – 02:14:54.749] Got one with a waterfall, because I don't know of a more idyllic setting than to, to be right by some stream with water sort of bubbling down, down a mount- That's just uh, my idea of

[02:14:54.749 – 02:14:56.549] just being next to paradise. [02:14:56.549 – 02:15:04.529] So I emulated that with the pond I gave her, and, uh, she So, so every morning, that's where I start my day. [02:15:04.529 – 02:15:08.869] If, unless it's just bru- brutally nasty outside. [02:15:08.869 – 02:15:10.949] And it doesn't have to be some magical place. [02:15:10.949 – 02:15:13.369] I do it sometimes driving down the road. [02:15:13.369 – 02:15:14.669] I do it in rush hour. [02:15:14.669 – 02:15:16.509] I do it trying to board a plane sometimes. [02:15:16.509 – 02:15:18.949] You know, that, there's no magic about where to do it. [02:15:18.949 – 02:15:20.449] Doesn't have to be an idyllic place.

[02:15:20.449 – 02:15:23.649] It's just a matter of getting into the frame of mind. [02:15:23.649 – 02:15:28.129] And what, what I do every day, that's my way of turning my will and life over. [02:15:28.129 – 02:15:31.429] It's my way of doing the, the action steps of 10 through 12. [02:15:31.429 – 02:15:38.389] And what I do is just sort of sit down, take a few minutes to qui- let my mind quieten down. [02:15:38.389 – 02:15:39.649] Y- you know what I mean? [02:15:39.649 – 02:15:42.309] You know, I don't know about you, but my mind just races.

[02:15:42.309 – 02:15:44.829] Uh, it's, it's always something going on. [02:15:44.829 – 02:15:46.409] It never shuts down. [02:15:46.409 – 02:15:55.129] And, uh, so if, if, if I try to, to, to do a Thursday of prayer while my mind's racing like that, I mean, it'd be like sending an email or something. [02:15:55.129 – 02:15:57.469] It, it just, just, uh, do- doesn't connect. [02:15:57.469 – 02:16:01.029] And so what I have to do is get into a, to the right frame of mind. [02:16:01.029 – 02:16:05.369] And so I just sorta sit there and listen to the waterfall, let it do its work.

[02:16:05.369 – 02:16:15.709] And as I listen to that and listen to that water and then just kinda relax and get slowed down, I mean, obviously you don't quit thinking, but I quit racing, and I quit just cramming [02:16:15.709 – 02:16:18.709] stuff in my head and thinking ahead of what I'm gonna do 30 minutes from now. [02:16:18.709 – 02:16:21.609] It is a wonderful place just to start doing that. [02:16:21.609 – 02:16:31.989] And then I do three basic things every day, and it's, it's my way of not only engaging and turning my will and life over, but it's also

[02:16:31.989 – 02:16:35.249] reporting for duty, i- is, is what I'm doing in that step. [02:16:35.249 – 02:16:42.849] Not just make me some blissful, serene patriarch, uh, but to, to make me a, what, what I, what I wanna be, a useful servant. [02:16:42.849 – 02:16:49.089] And so what I do is just basically, uh, get quieted down, then I, I focus on three things. [02:16:49.089 – 02:16:55.849] It's, it's, uh, almost religiously, but, but, but I try to have good feel about it each time. [02:16:55.849 – 02:16:58.689] And one is to, to recognize who I am.

[02:16:58.689 – 02:17:03.389] You know, I, I want to know who I am, and I reflect on who I am. [02:17:03.389 – 02:17:08.229] A- and who I am, I'm a guy who by any measure ought to be dead. [02:17:08.229 – 02:17:11.469] There is absolutely no way I can justify being alive. [02:17:11.469 – 02:17:12.589] None. [02:17:12.589 – 02:17:17.489] And that's not melodrama, that's a fact, that I, I am a guy who ought to be dead. [02:17:17.489 – 02:17:22.589] I, I, there's, there's just no way I can justify it, just shouldn't be, but I am. [02:17:22.589 – 02:17:31.269] And I have, I'm a guy who has not only been given life, but I've been given freedom through recovery.

[02:17:31.269 – 02:17:36.189] You know, who I am is a guy who the reason I ought to be dead, I'm, I'm an alcoholic. [02:17:36.189 – 02:17:39.209] Absolutely to the core, I'm an alcoholic. [02:17:39.209 – 02:17:46.189] I have an illness that, that absolutely wipes out better than 90% of the people who have it. [02:17:46.189 – 02:17:53.129] Better than 90% of the people on this earth who have alcoholism die of it, most never even knowing there's a way out. [02:17:53.129 – 02:17:57.409] Never mind finding, reject it, never even know there's a way out.

[02:17:57.409 – 02:18:01.129] And here I am, a, a junkyard dog if… [02:18:01.129 – 02:18:07.608] sh- no, no offense to the lady out there, but the, uh I'm a junkyard dog. [02:18:07.608 – 02:18:13.509] And, uh, deserving or merit doesn't even enter the picture. [02:18:13.509 – 02:18:16.849] But I, I, I reflect just briefly on who I am. [02:18:16.849 – 02:18:24.149] I am a guy who was absolutely a d- a, a damaging influence in every society he ever got close to. [02:18:24.149 – 02:18:30.569] I'm somebody who has an illness that most people die of, and I've been given recovery.

[02:18:30.569 – 02:18:31.409] I'm- [02:18:31.578 – 02:18:33.738] I've literally given recovery. [02:18:33.738 – 02:18:35.358] I didn't look for it. [02:18:35.358 – 02:18:36.638] I didn't get in the Yellow Pages. [02:18:36.638 – 02:18:37.618] I didn't get online. [02:18:37.618 – 02:18:39.678] I was given recovery. [02:18:39.678 – 02:18:41.438] Somebody introduced me to it. [02:18:41.438 – 02:18:47.338] Didn't draft me, but I was introduced to it with no initiative whatsoever on my own. [02:18:47.338 – 02:18:55.988] I was given the pro- program by people who shared with me, just like we're sharing with you, and, um, and it clicked. [02:18:55.988 – 02:18:57.178] So it was given to me. [02:18:57.178 – 02:18:58.818] Absolutely. [02:18:58.818 – 02:19:05.538] And then, so I'm a guy that, that has been given s- something truly, truly magnificent.

[02:19:05.538 – 02:19:09.778] Not only been given recovery, but been given a life beyond imagination. [02:19:09.778 – 02:19:10.998] That's a fact. [02:19:10.998 – 02:19:17.078] And, and so I reflect on that just for a few minutes, and I'm not talking about a long meditation t- t- uh, trip. [02:19:17.078 – 02:19:20.138] I, I'm talking about just pretty quick action. [02:19:20.138 – 02:19:22.178] I, I reflect on that. [02:19:22.178 – 02:19:25.518] I feel the gratitude for what I've been given. [02:19:25.518 – 02:19:30.998] And then the second thing I do is try to express that gratitude. [02:19:30.998 – 02:19:36.438] You know, if I am so grateful, for God's sakes, let me at least show that.

[02:19:36.438 – 02:19:43.428] Don't let me be some sad sack smartass that's just got a cutting remark for everything that happens. [02:19:43.428 – 02:19:44.718] God, don't let me do that. [02:19:44.718 – 02:19:48.138] You know, if I'm so grateful, let me show it. [02:19:48.138 – 02:19:51.418] That's the very least I could do, for God's sakes. [02:19:51.418 – 02:19:52.738] That's the least I could do. [02:19:52.738 – 02:19:57.978] So I want to be somebody who is a decent example of recovery. [02:19:57.978 – 02:20:01.378] I want to be a little more than just decent, but I… [02:20:01.378 – 02:20:10.018] At a minimum, I want to be somebody who, if I'm gonna let them know I'm in AA, I want them to, to, to get the impression that it might be a pretty good deal.

[02:20:10.018 – 02:20:13.778] I don't want to be a bad example of what this program looks like. [02:20:13.778 – 02:20:15.818] And so that's the second thing I ask for. [02:20:15.818 – 02:20:27.198] And then the third thing that I ask for in turning my will and life over and getting engaged is to make me sensitive, make [02:20:27.198 – 02:20:30.278] me sensitive to opportunities to be of service. [02:20:30.278 – 02:20:36.138] And that's a, that's a, that's a pretty big invitation because if I'm not… [02:20:36.138 – 02:20:45.298] You know, in the normal rush of life, if I'm not turned in to being sensitive to opportunities, I walk right past them and never see them.

[02:20:45.298 – 02:20:50.158] You know, I could see somebody struggling and walk past and never even recognize it. [02:20:50.158 – 02:20:56.318] But if I'm tuned in to being sensitive to that, I'll not only pick up on it, but I'll act on it. [02:20:56.318 – 02:21:03.238] And so that's what I want to do, so that the third step prayer is not for God to mystically show me what my next step is. [02:21:03.238 – 02:21:08.738] It's to guide me in being of useful purpose with the life that I've been given.

[02:21:08.738 – 02:21:13.178] And I'm telling you something, man, that, that pays off big time. [02:21:13.178 – 02:21:15.378] It pays off big time. [02:21:15.378 – 02:21:16.858] And what it does, it girds me up. [02:21:16.858 – 02:21:19.538] It gets me ready to go out and engage in life. [02:21:19.538 – 02:21:23.848] And I won't s- I won't go too mu- much with it, but maybe a little later in 10, 11, 12. [02:21:23.848 – 02:21:29.878] But I think all of this stuff, just like Steve said, it's a, it's a m- it's a group of principles. [02:21:29.878 – 02:21:30.738] They all work together.

[02:21:30.738 – 02:21:35.208] And what, uh, what that translates to, I was, uh… [02:21:35.208 – 02:21:37.827] Well, I could give you 1,000 cases. [02:21:37.827 – 02:21:39.698] I'll just give you the, one of the latest one. [02:21:39.698 – 02:21:43.858] I got on a plane, and there was a , there was a little short… [02:21:43.858 – 02:21:53.838] I think I was coming out of New York somewhere, but then, anyway, the, the short lady was trying to get a great big bag up in that thing up there. [02:21:53.838 – 02:21:57.098] You know, the, the whatever you call it, place where you put the bag.

[02:21:57.098 – 02:22:01.338] So, so she's trying to get up, and she couldn't have reached it with a ladder. [02:22:01.338 – 02:22:03.378] And so I said… [02:22:03.378 – 02:22:13.518] I went over to her, I said, "Give me the bag." And she said, "No." I said, "Give me the bag." And so I just took it away from her and, uh, [02:22:13.518 – 02:22:14.758] and, uh, put it up there. [02:22:14.758 – 02:22:17.308] And she said, "You know, I really appreciate that. [02:22:17.308 – 02:22:27.338] You're from the South, aren't you?" I said, I said, "How did you know that?" And she said, "My God, man, we don't do that in

[02:22:27.338 – 02:22:29.738] New York." She said… [02:22:29.738 – 02:22:31.238] I said, I said, "Oh yeah, they do it in New York. [02:22:31.238 – 02:22:33.898] Only difference is they'll grab the bag and leave with it." You know. [02:22:33.898 – 02:22:36.498] They won't put it up in the deal up there. [02:22:36.498 – 02:22:38.768] But to me, that's what it's about, you know? [02:22:38.768 – 02:22:40.318] That's what the spiritual life's about. [02:22:40.318 – 02:22:44.258] It's not about sitting around staring at your navel and rol- wallowing in ashes. [02:22:44.258 – 02:22:48.058] It's about getting suited up to get out and get into the business of living.

[02:22:48.058 – 02:22:50.478] And so that, to me, is what this is. [02:22:50.478 – 02:22:55.738] That's, that's not just some sort of a, sort of a stare at your navel and go off and think great thoughts. [02:22:55.738 – 02:22:58.098] It, it's about turning my will and life over. [02:22:58.098 – 02:22:59.338] What's God's purpose for me? [02:22:59.338 – 02:23:02.778] To be of maximum service to Him and the folks around me. [02:23:02.778 – 02:23:05.658] And so that's what I want to do, is not go into a trance. [02:23:05.658 – 02:23:08.838] I want to just get into suited up, ready to go out and live.

[02:23:08.838 – 02:23:09.738] Mitchell? [02:23:09.738 – 02:23:10.098] Oh. [02:23:10.098 – 02:23:10.878] You, oh boy. [02:23:10.878 – 02:23:20.898] You got- I ate a little bit too much to be working this hard, [02:23:20.898 – 02:23:21.338] I'll tell you. [02:23:21.338 – 02:23:22.378] That was awfully good. [02:23:22.378 – 02:23:23.578] I had, uh… [02:23:23.578 – 02:23:31.037] Somebody said, "How'd you like the burgers?" I said, "I liked them and the hot dogs." And, uh, two bags of potato chips and all the other stuff I had. [02:23:31.037 – 02:23:33.918] Never pass up groceries. [02:23:33.918 – 02:23:41.458] Um, it, it's a good, uh, it's a good way to, for us to get going and a good place to get started and pick up a little bit of speed.

[02:23:41.458 – 02:23:45.918] Not that anything's less important than other, but just to launch on here and get, get rolling. [02:23:45.918 – 02:23:46.738] It's awful hard. [02:23:46.738 – 02:23:52.538] I wanna, I wanna move into inventory pretty quick, but it's awful hard for me to do that without visiting very quickly what's in front of it. [02:23:52.538 – 02:23:55.178] Uh, and Tom talked about the third step. [02:23:55.178 – 02:24:04.838] Let me, let me just tell you what my early beginning of that was, is, uh, my sponsor, uh, actually did take me by the hand, and we got down on our knees and said the third step prayer.

[02:24:04.838 – 02:24:06.518] But he explained some things to me. [02:24:06.518 – 02:24:11.198] And as I know now, I know a lot more about what I did than what I did at the time. [02:24:11.198 – 02:24:20.678] That step, I think, says, "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." And he asked me what my will in my life was. [02:24:20.678 – 02:24:22.458] I had no idea what that was. [02:24:22.458 – 02:24:32.467] And he said, "I'm gonna give you an explanation that it should be very useful to you." And I was, I was taught, uh, the people that I sobered up under, my sponsor, and all the people that I've been

[02:24:32.467 – 02:24:36.648] under have been, they've been spiritual giants, of course, in their own… [02:24:36.648 – 02:24:46.708] to me, at least, but they've also been, uh, very practical A spiritual principle might have some worth to somebody, but if it doesn't have any practicality, it's probably gonna be a little bit beyond [02:24:46.708 – 02:24:46.958] me. [02:24:46.958 – 02:24:56.958] For example, when I first looked at the 11th step, that seemed so remote, so ominous, and so far out there, but what I found is that 11th step is intensely practical.

[02:24:56.958 – 02:25:01.098] So while our stuff is very spiritual, there are no new spiritual principles. [02:25:01.098 – 02:25:02.018] They came to us. [02:25:02.018 – 02:25:03.078] They were just rewritten. [02:25:03.078 – 02:25:06.377] But the, the principles were– have been around forever. [02:25:06.377 – 02:25:10.338] But anyway, so he asked me what my will in my life was. [02:25:10.338 – 02:25:11.058] Well, I didn't know. [02:25:11.058 – 02:25:15.278] He said, "Well, I'll give you something." He said, "I'll give you something to go with." And I still, I still have it with me today. [02:25:15.278 – 02:25:25.218] He said, "Your will is your thinking, and your life is your actions." And this is what he told me that really started me on, I think, moved me into another realm of sobriety.

[02:25:25.218 – 02:25:31.838] You c- you can't, you can't move into one of these steps without there being some kind of corresponding, what? [02:25:31.838 – 02:25:32.878] Reaction to that. [02:25:32.878 – 02:25:33.998] Something has to happen. [02:25:33.998 – 02:25:36.178] We're not doing these things in a vacuum. [02:25:36.178 – 02:25:39.458] I mean, something happens, whether we're aware of it or not. [02:25:39.458 – 02:25:42.018] Sometimes I'm not aware of it until after the fact. [02:25:42.018 – 02:25:43.578] Sometimes there's a jolt right at the time. [02:25:43.578 – 02:25:45.337] But what I found is it doesn't make that much difference. [02:25:45.337 – 02:25:47.138] There's still something going on.

[02:25:47.138 – 02:25:53.148] But he said that your im– your life is your, your, uh, your, uh, will is your thinking, and your life is your actions. [02:25:53.148 – 02:25:59.778] And he said that what that means is, is it's a lot easier to do the right thing than it is to think the right thoughts. [02:25:59.778 – 02:26:02.098] And he said, "Don't worry about your thinking. [02:26:02.098 – 02:26:09.978] Worry about your actions." And as far as whether an action is correct or not, he said, "Don't worry about whether it's spiritual or God's will.

[02:26:09.978 – 02:26:14.218] Worry about whether or not it's responsible." He said, "You do the responsible thing. [02:26:14.218 – 02:26:24.338] That's a good place to begin." And he also told me all the way through, but he reiterated it, "If you don't know what the right thing to do is, that's what I'm here for." So he actually [02:26:24.338 – 02:26:27.678] took my hand, and we got down on our knees and said the third step prayer. [02:26:27.678 – 02:26:29.698] But here's, uh, here's what I know I did. [02:26:29.698 – 02:26:39.698] I know now by looking back at that time in my life how I understood God, I wouldn't have anywhere– where– any– I wasn't anywhere trying to turn my will

[02:26:39.698 – 02:26:44.658] and my life over to the care of God as I understood Him than I would try to jump out of an airplane without a parachute. [02:26:44.658 – 02:26:53.718] I thought that's what I was doing, but what I believe now that I did then is I turned my will and my life over to the care of Alcoholics Anonymous and to my sponsor. [02:26:53.718 – 02:26:55.638] That's what I think I did. [02:26:55.638 – 02:27:05.718] And I was taught that the more dependent I am on these principles, I think it even says that in the Twelve and Twelve, but I was literally taught that the more dependent I was on the principles of

[02:27:05.718 – 02:27:08.638] AA, the more independence I would have as a person. [02:27:08.638 – 02:27:12.538] And that there is a certain amount of dependence. [02:27:12.538 – 02:27:20.078] I mean, I understand that, that, the, the, that the, that faulty dependence is a bad thing, but there is a certain amount of dependence on people. [02:27:20.078 – 02:27:22.678] There is a certain amount of dependence on the literature. [02:27:22.678 – 02:27:26.038] There is a certain amount of dependence on my home group, on AA as a whole. [02:27:26.038 – 02:27:32.978] It's moving towards something deeper and bigger than that that'll carry the day, but that's a wonderful starting place.

[02:27:32.978 – 02:27:40.478] I've seen that happen many times, and I've listened to many people that it s- it sounded to me like that's what they were describing they did. [02:27:40.478 – 02:27:44.358] I don't think that would be a good place to stay, but it's a wonderful place to start. [02:27:44.358 – 02:27:45.978] And that's what we're looking for. [02:27:45.978 – 02:27:48.658] There's gradations to everything known to man. [02:27:48.658 – 02:27:53.398] I mean, that's, that's why in the court system, very often, they ask for pre-sentence investigations. [02:27:53.398 – 02:27:55.978] The judge wants to know, are you stealing 'cause you won't work?

[02:27:55.978 – 02:27:57.658] Are you stealing 'cause you can't get a job? [02:27:57.658 – 02:27:59.018] I mean, why are you stealing? [02:27:59.018 – 02:28:03.298] There's all kinds of, of, of, of explanations, and there's, there's progress. [02:28:03.298 – 02:28:09.058] So I wouldn't wanna end up that way, but that's a wonderful place to start, and that's what we're trying to do. [02:28:09.058 – 02:28:10.398] We're trying to get out of the valley. [02:28:10.398 – 02:28:14.898] When we're down here, we might be off of survival status, but just barely. [02:28:14.898 – 02:28:18.138] It's not a place I wanna be hanging around too long.

[02:28:18.138 – 02:28:22.558] So I went through that process, and I don't remember feeling anything different at the time. [02:28:22.558 – 02:28:23.738] I don't know if I did or not. [02:28:23.738 – 02:28:32.258] I know that I've had the experience many times of doing that with people, the third step prayer on our knees, and sometimes they describe an experience that they felt a jolt. [02:28:32.258 – 02:28:36.398] Sometimes they experience nothing, whatever, but they've all moved on. [02:28:36.398 – 02:28:39.738] If, if, if we've talked about it later, that means they've stayed sober. [02:28:39.738 – 02:28:42.118] And like Tom, I've done it a lot of places.

[02:28:42.118 – 02:28:44.938] This, this is not, this is not a joke or a one-upmanship. [02:28:44.938 – 02:28:52.038] I actually did it with a guy, a Black man, in the lobby of the North Raleigh Hilton Hotel in Raleigh. [02:28:52.038 – 02:28:54.098] And, uh, we said something. [02:28:54.098 – 02:28:55.418] We were, we, we were doing it. [02:28:55.418 – 02:28:57.898] We were in the book, and he said, "I wouldn't care where we did it. [02:28:57.898 – 02:29:01.778] I wouldn't care if we did it right here." So I, I, I wasn't quite that… [02:29:01.778 – 02:29:03.278] I looked around a little bit.

[02:29:03.278 – 02:29:05.678] I said, I said, "All right. [02:29:05.678 – 02:29:07.358] Let's do it," and we did. [02:29:07.358 – 02:29:10.788] And, uh, as far as I know, you know, I, I've lost track- [02:29:10.913 – 02:29:13.013] Of that guy, but last I heard, he was still sober. [02:29:13.013 – 02:29:14.353] I'm not working with him anymore. [02:29:14.353 – 02:29:16.833] But the key is, is the act. [02:29:16.833 – 02:29:22.473] Another thing that, that, uh, is leading up to that, and again, I don't, I don't wanna give too much treatment to the third step. [02:29:22.473 – 02:29:23.533] I wanna get into inventory. [02:29:23.533 – 02:29:24.343] But i-i…

[02:29:24.343 – 02:29:31.613] what we're turning over in the third step, and that's why I don't wanna be too much of a book technician and give concrete instructions. [02:29:31.613 – 02:29:35.133] We'll get a little more technical in the fourth and fifth step 'cause I think it's useful there. [02:29:35.133 – 02:29:39.733] But I, I, I just don't agree with that, about that you gotta do this and the one-size-fits-all. [02:29:39.733 – 02:29:45.473] What you're turning over in the third step, if you follow the big book instructions, is you're turning your self-centeredness over.

[02:29:45.473 – 02:29:50.873] It comes upon a time where it says it gives us a prayer, but the words to the prayer are optional. [02:29:50.873 – 02:29:55.933] So what we're really trying to get at is the destruction of self-centeredness. [02:29:55.933 – 02:30:02.193] Because you remember that old commercial about, um, a mind is a terrible thing to waste? [02:30:02.193 – 02:30:04.733] It's also a bad place to be by yourself. [02:30:04.733 – 02:30:10.993] And to fill that up with God and other people is a wonderful way, uh, to move off of that. [02:30:10.993 – 02:30:17.313] And then if you look in the, in the, in the 12 and 12, in the third step, what they're talking about there is the principle of willingness.

[02:30:17.313 – 02:30:21.133] So I think we can be pretty safe to bring to the dance of the third step. [02:30:21.133 – 02:30:30.933] If we've got some willingness going, and we're coming after that self-centeredness that's blocked us off from God and our fellows, then we're gonna be on pretty safe ground as far as moving forward into that. [02:30:30.933 – 02:30:33.033] That I begin to do the right thing. [02:30:33.033 – 02:30:40.653] We've been, we've, we've all been hearing that and hopefully all of our sobriety is, is a lot easier to, to live your way into right actions.

[02:30:40.653 – 02:30:41.353] Or how does that go? [02:30:41.353 – 02:30:46.353] I can't even think of it now, but we're- Live our way into right thinking and- Yeah, we live our way into right thinking, not into right… [02:30:46.353 – 02:30:48.953] We take the right action, and our thinking comes around eventually. [02:30:48.953 – 02:30:53.373] Sometimes we'll be a little slow on the thinking, but, but it'll get there. [02:30:53.373 – 02:30:56.633] So that's a little bit about the third step, and we'll be, I'll be… [02:30:56.633 – 02:31:00.533] You know, we'll be hanging around all night, late into the night if anybody wants to talk about that.

[02:31:00.533 – 02:31:05.793] But I think it's a, it's a, uh, it's an action kind of a thing where we start to move forward. [02:31:05.793 – 02:31:09.763] And, um, again, the wording's just optional is all it is. [02:31:09.763 – 02:31:12.113] It's a, it's a way to move forward. [02:31:12.113 – 02:31:14.773] Um, how do I want to… [02:31:14.773 – 02:31:18.033] I'd like to say a couple things about the fourth and fifth step that I think are useful. [02:31:18.033 – 02:31:21.653] But again, I'm always a little bit reluctant to do it 'cause it, it, if… [02:31:21.653 – 02:31:23.913] You need a little bit of a backdrop to understand it.

[02:31:23.913 – 02:31:30.822] It's kind of like when I say today, I think in AA, as a movement throughout North America, we're over-identified with meetings. [02:31:30.822 – 02:31:34.553] I think that, that that's easily misunderstood. [02:31:34.553 – 02:31:42.273] And if I were to say that as a fellowship, that we've been over-identified with the fourth and fifth step, that's easily misunderstood, too. [02:31:42.273 – 02:31:47.213] The fourth and fifth step are critically important, but so are all the other steps. [02:31:47.213 – 02:31:53.953] And I think that we've went through a period, I think this had something to do with the tremendous treatment movement for so long.

[02:31:53.953 – 02:32:02.253] I think that people felt like if they got through the fourth and fifth step, that there was like they would step back and die on the vine very often. [02:32:02.253 – 02:32:03.053] And for… [02:32:03.053 – 02:32:05.463] We're gonna be talking about this at some length here in a little bit. [02:32:05.463 – 02:32:09.033] But for my money, we start to lose people at six and seven. [02:32:09.033 – 02:32:14.653] I think if you don't, if you don't l- see it all the way through, it looks like we lose them at eight or nine.

[02:32:14.653 – 02:32:18.313] But I really think that we start to lose them at six and seven. [02:32:18.313 – 02:32:23.813] So the fourth and fifth step are critically important, but they're, they're, they're two steps. [02:32:23.813 – 02:32:33.813] And, um, best way to know if, um, if somebody's done the third step, I think our literature's pretty clear on that, is if they picked up pen and paper, and they're moving [02:32:33.813 – 02:32:35.653] forward into the, into the fourth step. [02:32:35.653 – 02:32:45.773] And so the fourth step says, "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." Now, just like our literature says, one of the reasons that the emphasis is heavy

[02:32:45.773 – 02:32:49.533] on l- on inventory in Alcoholics Anonymous is 'cause we ain't been doing any of it. [02:32:49.533 – 02:32:52.773] We've been doing a lot of inventory, but it's always other people's. [02:32:52.773 – 02:32:56.413] Uh, there's a few places that I know where you got smart people. [02:32:56.413 – 02:32:57.333] One of them's a bar. [02:32:57.333 – 02:32:59.893] Another one's a prison yard. [02:32:59.893 – 02:33:04.293] Uh, there are things, I mean, stuff can be settled there that can't be figured out anywhere else. [02:33:04.293 – 02:33:07.173] And it can be done quickly. [02:33:07.173 – 02:33:11.153] You're sitting around a bar talking to another doctor or airline pilot about midnight.

[02:33:11.153 – 02:33:16.533] Might be your best friend that you met a half hour ago, and you can figure out all kinds of stuff. [02:33:16.533 – 02:33:19.893] Not only that, you can't understand why other people can't see these things. [02:33:19.893 – 02:33:24.813] But the clear reality of it is our own lives have been and are in the toilet. [02:33:24.813 – 02:33:31.393] So the fourth step is where we come face to face, I think, with ourselves, and we've laid some pretty good groundwork for that. [02:33:31.393 – 02:33:33.453] There's a foundation being laid.

[02:33:33.453 – 02:33:43.513] These steps, I think the genius in them, God's wisdom, you know, that was provided through Bill Wilson and the other people that put this stuff together, is is this stuff's [02:33:43.513 – 02:33:44.893] building on everything that we do. [02:33:44.893 – 02:33:46.153] It's coming together now. [02:33:46.153 – 02:33:48.073] You can't take one of these actions. [02:33:48.073 – 02:33:55.413] If, if you've done the step to the best of your ability at the time, if you practiced it, it will sort of gently move you. [02:33:55.413 – 02:33:58.073] It has a life of its own almost.

[02:33:58.073 – 02:33:58.933] It seems to be like… [02:33:58.933 – 02:34:03.773] I mean, I don't wanna sound hokey or, you know, like I got God in my pocket or any of those things. [02:34:03.773 – 02:34:05.093] But it's almost like a spirit. [02:34:05.093 – 02:34:07.673] You know, for example, a fifth step isn't hard to do. [02:34:07.673 – 02:34:10.333] A fifth step's hard to get ready to do. [02:34:10.333 – 02:34:13.173] If you've gotten ready to do a fifth step, you'll do the fifth step. [02:34:13.173 – 02:34:15.993] So the, the, the underpinnings can be difficult. [02:34:15.993 – 02:34:22.973] But if our work is solid so far, then we come face to face with ourselves, have made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

[02:34:22.973 – 02:34:25.533] And the book has got some really good stuff on that. [02:34:25.533 – 02:34:27.733] It talks about it in three basic areas. [02:34:27.733 – 02:34:30.993] It talks about it in resentment, fear, and sex. [02:34:30.993 – 02:34:34.093] Says that resentments is our number one offender. [02:34:34.093 – 02:34:37.413] And, um, it's a tough one. [02:34:37.413 – 02:34:39.213] Uh, resentment's a simple thing. [02:34:39.213 – 02:34:41.133] It's a Latin word that means to re-feel. [02:34:41.133 – 02:34:47.353] But, um, all you have to do is listen to your body to know if you got some resentments. [02:34:47.353 – 02:34:53.553] And, and, and, um, I would say that y- alcoholics may not own resentments, but we're in the, we're in the running for them.

[02:34:53.553 – 02:34:55.853] I mean, we know a lot about resentments. [02:34:55.853 – 02:34:59.973] We've got a lot of, a lot of history with it and, uh, my goodness. [02:34:59.973 – 02:35:02.253] So we're told how to do that. [02:35:02.253 – 02:35:03.753] It's a very concrete way. [02:35:03.753 – 02:35:05.973] Get it all down on paper. [02:35:05.973 – 02:35:08.213] And that's where I wanna be just a little bit technical. [02:35:08.213 – 02:35:17.709] I think it might be helpful if you turn in your book to page 65 One of the reasons I think this is there's something I missed for the first twenty years I was sober.

[02:35:17.709 – 02:35:23.509] Which is, I would submit, is a fairly significant period of time to miss part of the solution. [02:35:23.509 – 02:35:35.449] Where it says, "I'm resentful at Brown." So [02:35:35.449 – 02:35:38.989] we get that on paper, then it tells us to write down why we're resentful. [02:35:38.989 – 02:35:39.909] What's the cause? [02:35:39.909 – 02:35:41.689] And what does that affect? [02:35:41.689 – 02:35:49.729] Now, when I'm working with somebody who's never done an inventory, what I like to do is get them to start at the most current and go backwards, is how I work.

[02:35:49.729 – 02:35:56.969] You can– And again, it's a matter of flavor, but that's just what I like to do because they're the ones that are most prominent in their mind. [02:35:56.969 – 02:36:00.429] So to get that down on paper, I'm resentful at Mr. [02:36:00.429 – 02:36:01.029] Brown. [02:36:01.029 – 02:36:01.489] Why? [02:36:01.489 – 02:36:02.369] What's the cause? [02:36:02.369 – 02:36:03.489] Get all of that down. [02:36:03.489 – 02:36:04.289] Then it affects. [02:36:04.289 – 02:36:06.369] Now, here's what I missed until… [02:36:06.369 – 02:36:08.369] I got sober, I told you, in nineteen ninety-five. [02:36:08.369 – 02:36:11.489] Now, this wasn't through any lack of reading AA literature. [02:36:11.489 – 02:36:14.869] I can tell you, I read past these words many times.

[02:36:14.869 – 02:36:16.769] I sat in step meetings for… [02:36:16.769 – 02:36:18.509] They had them when I came in. [02:36:18.509 – 02:36:19.579] They had book studies. [02:36:19.579 – 02:36:25.109] Not book studies like we're doing here or in people's houses, but I went to a big book meeting where it was read, all of that. [02:36:25.109 – 02:36:35.209] I missed what– When it was introduced to me, it was called the, the guy told me, he said, "I just call it the fourth column over on page sixty-seven." What I like [02:36:35.209 – 02:36:45.169] to do is have somebody go all the way through their list, all the way back through their memory as far as they possibly can, so they've got all their resentments down on paper from most current to oldest.

[02:36:45.169 – 02:36:47.709] So you walk back all the way through your childhood. [02:36:47.709 – 02:36:57.849] And I like to tell people that this is a place where we're not gonna worry about what kind of gunk it is or how silly it is or how nasty it is, 'cause if you hear many f- uh, if you hear many fifth steps, [02:36:57.849 – 02:36:59.109] I mean, you're gonna hear some stuff. [02:36:59.109 – 02:37:03.369] I remember when I was getting ready to, uh, to move from, um… [02:37:03.369 – 02:37:04.829] I came to North Carolina.

[02:37:04.829 – 02:37:09.029] Actually, Tom brought me to North Carolina in nineteen eighty-nine to go to work in the Department of Correction. [02:37:09.029 – 02:37:14.869] And as archaic as North Carolina might be, the prison system was doing some stuff that had never been done with alcoholics. [02:37:14.869 – 02:37:20.469] And so I, I was telling a priest friend of mine before I left that, uh, he's a really good guy. [02:37:20.469 – 02:37:23.029] He liked to drink beer and smoke cigarettes, and he cussed and all that. [02:37:23.029 – 02:37:23.829] He's just a good guy.

[02:37:23.829 – 02:37:29.869] But I was telling him I was going to North Carolina to work in the prison system, and he's out, he's standing out in the middle of the street when I told him. [02:37:29.869 – 02:37:36.809] He said, "Merciful Jesus, you're gonna hear some stuff in there." Well, you don't have to go into the prison system to hear some stuff. [02:37:36.809 – 02:37:39.869] If you hear some fifth steps, you're gonna hear some stuff. [02:37:39.869 – 02:37:44.669] I mean, you're gonna hear some stuff that's gonna get a, you know, get the pope off track.

[02:37:44.669 – 02:37:45.889] It'll get a train unhooked. [02:37:45.889 – 02:37:47.629] It'll– You're gonna hear some stuff. [02:37:47.629 – 02:37:50.489] But here's, here's what I like to do then. [02:37:50.489 – 02:38:00.869] Oh, my flavor is for them to go all the way through their resentments, all the way back to as long as their memory will allow, and then come over here to the middle of page sixty-seven. [02:38:00.869 – 02:38:01.499] And it says… [02:38:01.499 – 02:38:02.949] This is just my way of doing it. [02:38:02.949 – 02:38:05.809] It says, "Referring to our list again. [02:38:05.809 – 02:38:10.358] Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes.

[02:38:10.358 – 02:38:14.869] Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? [02:38:14.869 – 02:38:20.578] Though a situation had not been entirely our fault, we tried to disregard the other person involved entirely. [02:38:20.578 – 02:38:22.209] Where were we to blame? [02:38:22.209 – 02:38:25.739] The inventory was ours, not the other man's. [02:38:25.739 – 02:38:28.209] When we saw our faults, we listed them. [02:38:28.209 – 02:38:30.609] We placed them before us in black and white. [02:38:30.609 – 02:38:37.789] We admitted our wrongs honestly, and we're willing to set these matters straight." Well, that shows that these things bleed over into other steps, don't we?

[02:38:37.789 – 02:38:41.649] We're talking about admitting our wrongs and making them right down the line. [02:38:41.649 – 02:38:44.869] So they're talking about some other stuff there that they're sort of getting us ready for. [02:38:44.869 – 02:38:55.049] That's why somebody was– One of the ladies I had lunch with was saying that, that for her money, the ninth step was a lot deeper water than the fifth step because it's a whole 'nother [02:38:55.049 – 02:38:55.569] drill. [02:38:55.569 – 02:38:58.809] You know, remember now, when you start to get past about… [02:38:58.809 – 02:39:06.389] I mean, I think this is probably always true, but when you start getting past the fifth step, and you start getting around to the sixth step, the road starts to narrow here.

[02:39:06.389 – 02:39:12.789] I mean, this, you know, that's why it says about we start to separate the men from the boys and, and the women from the girls. [02:39:12.789 – 02:39:16.429] I mean, you're getting into some deep water here, and you're gonna have to take a stand. [02:39:16.429 – 02:39:18.089] You wanna get well or don't you? [02:39:18.089 – 02:39:21.069] It ain't filler material, but this is setting us up for that. [02:39:21.069 – 02:39:28.009] And the thing about that is, is that you, you, you can't just do the sixth and seventh step without doing this stuff.

[02:39:28.009 – 02:39:36.209] You can't just go to God and say, "Remove this stuff," if you haven't, you know, crawled through the mire. [02:39:36.209 – 02:39:42.929] So we get it all down on paper, and then we get those columns, and then we go baske- back and answer those questions. [02:39:42.929 – 02:39:48.349] Now, anybody, including me, that's ever done that, once you answer those questions, that changes the drill. [02:39:48.349 – 02:39:49.999] That switches- [02:39:50.308 – 02:39:51.488] things up altogether, doesn't it? [02:39:51.488 – 02:39:57.128] And now down here in fourth and fifth step, we still have a certain amount of liberty to look at other people.

[02:39:57.128 – 02:40:05.528] It's not like when we get way out there in Neverland with the tenth step, when it says it's axiomatic that no matter what somebody else has done wrong, it doesn't make any difference. [02:40:05.528 – 02:40:06.587] It's always about us. [02:40:06.587 – 02:40:09.228] But that's not gonna happen. [02:40:09.228 – 02:40:14.328] All of that advanced spiritual ground isn't gonna be there if we haven't done this stuff here. [02:40:14.328 – 02:40:19.208] You gotta do the, the frame to get the, to get it to hold. [02:40:19.208 – 02:40:29.628] So we get it all down on paper and get those resentments down and, and, um, I've actually had alcoholics tell me, you probably have too, they didn't have any resentments.

[02:40:29.628 – 02:40:31.848] But I've never ran into one. [02:40:31.848 – 02:40:33.768] But I've, but I've heard that a lot. [02:40:33.768 – 02:40:38.308] So we get all of that down on paper, and that's usually not that difficult a process. [02:40:38.308 – 02:40:40.608] It's sometimes be, get, difficult to get somebody to do it. [02:40:40.608 – 02:40:43.908] My old sponsor who passed away used to say that it, it, um… [02:40:43.908 – 02:40:46.288] How long did it take to do a fourth step? [02:40:46.288 – 02:40:48.948] He'd say it'd take about nine months and about four or five hours. [02:40:48.948 – 02:40:55.428] You know, take you nine months, and then you sit down with that paper and pen.

[02:40:55.428 – 02:40:58.908] That's about, about three, four, five hours we'll be here, and you'll be done with it. [02:40:58.908 – 02:40:59.728] And that can be true. [02:40:59.728 – 02:41:02.808] Some people write their in– some people write their inventory an hour, hour and a half. [02:41:02.808 – 02:41:08.788] I was talking to a lady the other day and said she had somebody she was working with who'd been on their fourth step for six months. [02:41:08.788 – 02:41:09.608] I said, "No, they ain't. [02:41:09.608 – 02:41:11.848] They ain't on their fourth step for six months. [02:41:11.848 – 02:41:17.688] They might be doing something for six months, but if they're writing inventory for six months, they're off track.

[02:41:17.688 – 02:41:23.788] Something's wrong." And so that's a place very often what I like to do is push people through that. [02:41:23.788 – 02:41:26.268] You know, go right at it. [02:41:26.268 – 02:41:28.268] And as far as the steps, it's a… [02:41:28.268 – 02:41:32.128] And again, it's a matter of flavor, but I, I've ne– I don't practice one size fits all. [02:41:32.128 – 02:41:40.088] I'm working with a guy now, he's fifty years old, and he spent most of his adult life in the penitentiary, homeless or in mental institutions, and he's sober.

[02:41:40.088 – 02:41:42.468] Um, he was sober a year in June. [02:41:42.468 – 02:41:45.108] And he's done very, very well. [02:41:45.108 – 02:41:48.908] But just now are we at, uh, is he moving into the ninth step. [02:41:48.908 – 02:41:52.248] It's been a very deliberate, difficult process. [02:41:52.248 – 02:41:55.588] I mean, this is a guy that called me at six o'clock one morning crying 'cause his tooth hurt. [02:41:55.588 – 02:41:59.508] So, you know, you're, you're– it's gonna be a haul here for a while. [02:41:59.508 – 02:42:02.068] And everybody doesn't move at the same speed. [02:42:02.068 – 02:42:06.668] When I was, when I was new, well, I, I think we kind– It's not like I was ignorant.

[02:42:06.668 – 02:42:15.708] I mean, I, I was s- I guess smart as anybody else, but I, I literally believed when people came into AA, they progressed in the same kind of way and at the same rate. [02:42:15.708 – 02:42:25.788] I mean, that's silly to think that some CEO that comes here who's had a master's degree and MBA and been running a big corporation is gonna proceed at the same rate [02:42:25.788 – 02:42:29.188] as some guy that, that, that has trouble get– didn't get a GED.

[02:42:29.188 – 02:42:34.228] I mean, the GED may be just as smart, but he hasn't had the advantages, hasn't had the stuff. [02:42:34.228 – 02:42:36.688] There's gonna be some differences here in how you proceed. [02:42:36.688 – 02:42:42.228] And if all we're gonna do is throw stuff at the wall in hopes it sticks, I mean, you don't need a sponsor. [02:42:42.228 – 02:42:44.908] You can do that with a video and Ottomans. [02:42:44.908 – 02:42:46.508] I mean, we gotta work with these people. [02:42:46.508 – 02:42:48.808] You gotta listen to find out. [02:42:48.808 – 02:42:59.368] The best way I know to find out once you've had the experience of the steps, how to guide someone else through them besides the material, is you listen to them

[02:42:59.368 – 02:43:00.308] and you find out. [02:43:00.308 – 02:43:04.407] That's how you know because you're, you're, you, you'll just know. [02:43:04.407 – 02:43:05.808] I mean, there's a lot of stuff that… [02:43:05.808 – 02:43:11.948] Well, it says that in one of our, at the bottom of the ninth step that you'll intuitively knew how, know how to do things that used to baffle you. [02:43:11.948 – 02:43:13.488] Stuff will show up. [02:43:13.488 – 02:43:14.688] We'll know how to do it. [02:43:14.688 – 02:43:21.928] And what I always figure is, is anyway, a lot of times when I talk to my sponsor, I'm getting guidance on how to proceed with other people.

[02:43:21.928 – 02:43:24.428] I mean, I'm not gonna go tell them now. [02:43:24.428 – 02:43:32.208] I'm not gonna go, uh, I'm not gonna violate a confidence without asking the guy I'm sponsoring. [02:43:32.208 – 02:43:42.288] But I'll, I'll oftentimes say, "How do I proceed with this?" Or, "What do you do about that?" And a lot of times, the guys I sponsor, especially if they've been sober a long time, when they're calling in, that's what it's, that's what it's [02:43:42.288 – 02:43:42.708] about. [02:43:42.708 – 02:43:45.548] How do I move forward with this situation?

[02:43:45.548 – 02:43:48.268] I'm working with this person, or it's a matter of principle. [02:43:48.268 – 02:43:54.008] And so a lot of times it's a matter of listening to all of that and to figuring out how to guide somebody. [02:43:54.008 – 02:43:59.208] But one size doesn't fit all other than to get people hooked up to the principles. [02:43:59.208 – 02:44:02.438] So we do that with resentments, and then we get all the fear down on paper. [02:44:02.438 – 02:44:07.608] And what I like to do, the way I tell people, what I did myself, is just write out my fear.

[02:44:07.608 – 02:44:14.228] And what, what, what was always helpful for me is just to let that fear unwind, just to go, to, to go with it, you know? [02:44:14.228 – 02:44:22.928] It– My, my sponsor who passed away told me one time, he said, "When I came to AA, I was homeless," and I said it last night, "I was hemorrhaging blood." He just picked up on that. [02:44:22.928 – 02:44:23.328] He said… [02:44:23.328 – 02:44:30.148] I was, I was talking to him about some problems one time that I felt I was sober too long to be having.

[02:44:30.148 – 02:44:37.528] And he said, "Well," he said, "there's a part of you that's always gonna be homeless and hem-hemorrhaging blood." He said, "That's not all bad. [02:44:37.528 – 02:44:46.188] That's not all good, but that's not all bad either." And how, kind of how I've settled that in my own mind, I've got enough demons chasing me to keep me going forever. [02:44:46.188 – 02:44:49.368] And that's a good thing if it keeps me practicing these principles. [02:44:49.368 – 02:44:55.448] You know, I've, I, I mean, I've always known there was something wrong with me, and quitting drinking wasn't gonna stop that.

[02:44:55.448 – 02:45:03.148] And even practicing these principles, it puts me in the game, but life is challenging enough that I'm gonna have to keep striving. [02:45:03.148 – 02:45:05.848] I'm gonna have to keep trying to practice these principles. [02:45:05.848 – 02:45:08.188] So I like to let that fear unravel if you're… [02:45:08.188 – 02:45:13.268] And particularly if you're working with somebody who's never done it, is, you know, that fear can just keep going forever. [02:45:13.268 – 02:45:19.548] You know how the boss can look at you sideways and, you know, about thirty minutes of thinking about that, you're without a job and homeless.

[02:45:19.548 – 02:45:23.768] You know, I heard a guy– I, I was new, but boy, I could identify. [02:45:23.768 – 02:45:24.218] I was listening. [02:45:24.218 – 02:45:28.288] I was in a s- discussion meeting one night, and this guy said he woke up. [02:45:28.288 – 02:45:30.108] I don't know how long he'd been sober. [02:45:30.108 – 02:45:35.828] I, I think now it might have been a little while as I look back on it 'cause he's a pretty funny guy, and he seemed pretty, pretty comfortable. [02:45:35.828 – 02:45:37.268] But he, um, I was new. [02:45:37.268 – 02:45:47.708] He said, um, "Well, I woke up this morning," and he said, "everything was fine." He said, "I was no problems whatsoever." And he said, "I went into some serious thinking." And

[02:45:47.708 – 02:45:52.887] he said, "About thirty minutes later, I was near suicide prevention." I mean, that's the way it goes. [02:45:52.887 – 02:45:56.608] You know, you, you just think yourself into it, and that fear will snowball. [02:45:56.608 – 02:45:59.152] And so that's why we get it down on paper. [02:45:59.152 – 02:46:00.272] And then we go… [02:46:00.272 – 02:46:02.232] And then just get it all down, let it unwind. [02:46:02.232 – 02:46:04.092] And then the third thing is on sex. [02:46:04.092 – 02:46:08.772] Now, this is my experience about, um, inventory and sex. [02:46:08.772 – 02:46:15.412] My experience is, is 90% of the secrets people intend to take to the grave with them has to do with sex.

[02:46:15.412 – 02:46:21.852] And I think that's the genius of our founders when they said you treat sex as any other problem. [02:46:21.852 – 02:46:26.372] And they put us all on the same line when they said we all have sex problems. [02:46:26.372 – 02:46:28.792] We'd hardly be human if we didn't. [02:46:28.792 – 02:46:37.712] But there's so much gunk about sex, and so much misinformation, and so much confusion, so much guilt, so much stuff that's never been true. [02:46:37.712 – 02:46:41.252] All of that, that we've got it all mixed up and confused, and it's…

[02:46:41.252 – 02:46:51.272] But if you get it down on paper clearly as you possibly can, take it to God, another human being, we're pretty well on our way to, to start to clear that, clear that [02:46:51.272 – 02:46:51.592] away. [02:46:51.592 – 02:46:55.852] I had, um, I had one thing on that, um… [02:46:55.852 – 02:46:59.092] I had some pretty, pretty difficult stuff to get through. [02:46:59.092 – 02:47:05.352] I had one thing on my list that didn't have anything to do with resentments, it didn't have anything to do with fear, and it didn't have to do with sex.

[02:47:05.352 – 02:47:08.052] It was just a stupid thing, and it… [02:47:08.052 – 02:47:16.392] Till I, till I got it down on paper and actually went through the fourth and fif- uh, went through the fifth step with it, it was bigger than life to me. [02:47:16.392 – 02:47:18.692] And I look back on it now, it wasn't anything. [02:47:18.692 – 02:47:23.312] But until I got the light of day on that thing, it just seemed… [02:47:23.312 – 02:47:25.192] It was just insurmountable. [02:47:25.192 – 02:47:29.892] Now, I, um, I did my first fifth step. [02:47:29.892 – 02:47:30.932] I wouldn't do this today.

[02:47:30.932 – 02:47:38.522] I did my first fifth step with a Catholic priest that was a recovered member of Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:47:38.522 – 02:47:39.192] A great guy. [02:47:39.192 – 02:47:40.832] He's a long-term sober member. [02:47:40.832 – 02:47:44.472] And, um, you never would've thought he was a priest. [02:47:44.472 – 02:47:54.512] He wore those great big baggy pants and yellow shirt, and carried chewing tobacco in his pocket, and he wore those great big shoes with heels about this high, rubber heels, and people's feet hurt, and white [02:47:54.512 – 02:47:55.252] socks with them. [02:47:55.252 – 02:47:56.832] But he's a great guy.

[02:47:56.832 – 02:48:00.472] And, and, um, I told him I wanted to do my, uh, fourth step. [02:48:00.472 – 02:48:01.992] And, and I told my sponsor. [02:48:01.992 – 02:48:02.852] My sponsor was… [02:48:02.852 – 02:48:04.092] It was a different time. [02:48:04.092 – 02:48:05.242] It was a different part of the country. [02:48:05.242 – 02:48:08.292] I always hear the four- fifth steps of people I sponsor today. [02:48:08.292 – 02:48:18.562] But, um, he told me to, uh, to meet him at the rectory at 9:00 on Saturday morning, and he said, "Have your fourth step with you." And just like he said, he actually said the words, "Be prepared

[02:48:18.562 – 02:48:22.432] for a long talk." And, um, so I was. [02:48:22.432 – 02:48:24.092] I had my inventory, and I got there at… [02:48:24.092 – 02:48:26.952] He told me to be there at 9:00, and I got there at 10 minutes to 9:00. [02:48:26.952 – 02:48:30.572] And I remember it almost like a panorama or a video. [02:48:30.572 – 02:48:33.052] I hit the rectory door, and he, he pulled the door open. [02:48:33.052 – 02:48:34.372] He stuck out his hand. [02:48:34.372 – 02:48:36.451] He said his name was Father Foster, Father Bob. [02:48:36.451 – 02:48:37.432] He's dead now. [02:48:37.432 – 02:48:38.452] He said, "I'm Bob. [02:48:38.452 – 02:48:40.942] I'm an alcoholic." He said, "Steve, alcoholics.

[02:48:40.942 – 02:48:41.432] Come on in. [02:48:41.432 – 02:48:44.932] Sit down." And, uh, I just remember it so clearly. [02:48:44.932 – 02:48:55.112] He said, "Let's review a little bit." And he took a couple minutes and talked, and he said, um, "You mind if, uh, you mind if I offer a prayer?" He said, "It's important to remember what we're doing here today." He said, "The step [02:48:55.112 – 02:49:00.272] says, 'Admitted to God, ourselves, and another human being.'" He said, "I can see you. [02:49:00.272 – 02:49:01.052] You can see me. [02:49:01.052 – 02:49:11.232] So you gotta remember, God's in here with us too, and the importance of what we're doing." Now, I li- I, I don't think that an alcoholic of my description is gonna do something

[02:49:11.232 – 02:49:13.412] like that unless I believe their life is on the line. [02:49:13.412 – 02:49:16.432] So it's a pretty important work leading up to that. [02:49:16.432 – 02:49:19.132] There's other things that a good fourth step does. [02:49:19.132 – 02:49:24.432] A good fourth step pushes you that much more closely to seeing the first step in reality. [02:49:24.432 – 02:49:28.342] 'Cause a lot of times, if we're moving people quickly, there'll be reservations, right? [02:49:28.342 – 02:49:33.252] Part of the reason to moving people quickly sometimes is they wanna, you wanna bust through those reservations. [02:49:33.252 – 02:49:37.732] It's like if I've got somebody that's a real slickster or something, I'll slam them f- pretty far…

[02:49:37.732 – 02:49:38.982] You know, I'll get a whole… [02:49:38.982 – 02:49:41.252] I'll try to slam them pretty hard into those steps. [02:49:41.252 – 02:49:47.252] And part of that is to, is to, to try to bust down some of that, that resistance as, as early as possible. [02:49:47.252 – 02:49:57.352] Um, but anyway, we said the prayer and, and he told me, s- he, he said, "Now I'm, I'm basically here with God as a listener." And he said, "If I've [02:49:57.352 – 02:49:59.232] got something to say, I'll say it, but I'm… [02:49:59.232 – 02:50:00.252] This is not, I'm not…

[02:50:00.252 – 02:50:01.572] This is not a counseling session. [02:50:01.572 – 02:50:05.692] I'm here as a listener." And, um, but here's what happened. [02:50:05.692 – 02:50:09.332] So we took off, and I had some, I had some pretty heavy-duty stuff to deal with. [02:50:09.332 – 02:50:16.611] I don't know how he knew this, but I got to that thing about that there wasn't anything to it that didn't have anything to do with… [02:50:16.611 – 02:50:18.072] I had a lot of resentment to get through. [02:50:18.072 – 02:50:18.692] I had a lot of fear. [02:50:18.692 – 02:50:24.452] I had a lot of sexual stuff, and had some other s- uh, this, it was, it was your typical bloody fourth and fifth step.

[02:50:24.452 – 02:50:27.632] But I had that thing that, that I thought separated me. [02:50:27.632 – 02:50:29.272] I thought I was so, um- [02:50:30.469 – 02:50:33.529] Nasty that nobody in the world had ever done anything like that. [02:50:33.529 – 02:50:35.729] And I know now that it was nothing. [02:50:35.729 – 02:50:41.809] But until I, until I got it out and got the light of day on it, it was just bigger than life. [02:50:41.809 – 02:50:43.429] And some reason, when I… [02:50:43.429 – 02:50:45.529] He had a whole bunch of stuff he wanted to say at that. [02:50:45.529 – 02:50:49.769] He hadn't said anything else, um, about anything that we had done so far.

[02:50:49.769 – 02:50:52.769] But when I got to that, he said he wanted to say some stuff about it. [02:50:52.769 – 02:50:57.549] And he told me some about his own personal experience with something similar, and he told me where that came from. [02:50:57.549 – 02:50:59.649] And basically, what he said is, "You dismiss that. [02:50:59.649 – 02:51:08.009] That's nothing." So I got all the way done with my, um, with my inventory, and he said that, uh, said he had a few things he wanted to say. [02:51:08.009 – 02:51:18.049] He said, "Now, I'm gonna tell you something." He said that, um, as far as a man and God are concerned, you're never obligated to

[02:51:18.049 – 02:51:22.509] share any of this again unless you can use it to help someone else. [02:51:22.509 – 02:51:26.789] But he said, "You don't have to share it anymore," uh, with, with that exception. [02:51:26.789 – 02:51:34.789] He said, "You got this part of what you're doing straight with God and with man." But he said, "Now, you're obligated." He understood Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:51:34.789 – 02:51:36.069] He understood spiritual principles. [02:51:36.069 – 02:51:40.349] He was living them in his vocation and in his, in his recovery in Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:51:40.349 – 02:51:47.869] He said, "Now, you're obligated to, to share them wherever you can be of help to someone else." So I left there.

[02:51:47.869 – 02:51:53.649] We, we discussed things a little bit more, and I left there with the idea of moving into the sixth and seventh step, going home, and taking the hour. [02:51:53.649 – 02:51:57.409] But I had two things come to me at the end of this event. [02:51:57.409 – 02:52:01.259] When I was leaving there, I had a couple things that I, that I think are, were… [02:52:01.259 – 02:52:06.389] They, they were the beginning of my movement towards really mature sobriety. [02:52:06.389 – 02:52:10.449] For my money, where, where, where I anchored down was at step six.

[02:52:10.449 – 02:52:15.109] At step six and seven is where I took my place as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:52:15.109 – 02:52:17.969] I ain't gonna be blown out of here by some kind of wind. [02:52:17.969 – 02:52:19.109] I'm not up for grabs. [02:52:19.109 – 02:52:22.589] My experience is, it's not somebody else's experience. [02:52:22.589 – 02:52:24.049] I've got my experience now. [02:52:24.049 – 02:52:25.989] I've got real horsepower here. [02:52:25.989 – 02:52:27.729] I'm connected to, to something. [02:52:27.729 – 02:52:29.089] But here's a couple things I knew. [02:52:29.089 – 02:52:33.949] When I left there that day, it was very clear to me I'd come a considerable distance.

[02:52:33.949 – 02:52:36.929] I mean, I had made some… [02:52:36.929 – 02:52:39.788] I had made a major leap forward. [02:52:39.788 – 02:52:48.629] The other thing that came to me, which I think is equally important, I've always– I've learned about as much from losers as I've ever learned from winners. [02:52:48.629 – 02:52:53.009] And it's just as important to know what not to do as it is to know what to do. [02:52:53.009 – 02:52:58.529] But it came to me just as clear when I was leaving Father's office, when I was leaving the rectory.

[02:52:58.529 – 02:53:01.869] It came to me that this would be a terrible place to stop. [02:53:01.869 – 02:53:06.169] And I don't know how I put all that together. [02:53:06.169 – 02:53:07.449] I don't know where that came from. [02:53:07.449 – 02:53:09.069] It's just inspiration or whatever. [02:53:09.069 – 02:53:15.029] The only thing I can remember that even might put, might even come close to something like that, we'd been visiting. [02:53:15.029 – 02:53:16.009] He was the pastor. [02:53:16.009 – 02:53:20.669] If you know anything about the Catholic Church, the person they call the pastor is the head there. [02:53:20.669 – 02:53:23.089] Next, then they got a bishop and all that that lives somewhere else.

[02:53:23.089 – 02:53:24.989] But, uh, that church and whether… [02:53:24.989 – 02:53:27.429] But this was a giant Catholic cathedral, St. [02:53:27.429 – 02:53:27.909] Mary's. [02:53:27.909 – 02:53:29.709] It was one of those great big giant ones. [02:53:29.709 – 02:53:39.729] And I remember him telling me, he said, "Even if I'd never been drunk, if I'd have, if I hadn't have been an alcoholic," he said, "I couldn't have been the pastor here if it wasn't for [02:53:39.729 – 02:53:49.809] what I learned in AA." "Because what I would've thought I had to do was all kinds of stuff to make something like this cathedral go." And he said

[02:53:49.849 – 02:53:58.469] , "Don't tell anybody," but he said, "I just kinda come down here and hang out." And he said, "All kinds of stuff happens." And he uses an example. [02:53:58.469 – 02:54:01.369] You know, I called him as a listener. [02:54:01.369 – 02:54:03.769] He had a chance to step in with God and be of service. [02:54:03.769 – 02:54:06.869] So that's the only thing I can think of where that might have come from. [02:54:06.869 – 02:54:14.629] But it was just as clear to me that I'd come a long ways, and it was equally clear to me that this would be a bad place to stop.

[02:54:14.629 – 02:54:21.769] Now, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, um, get my sponsor back up here, but I wanna say just a couple things that maybe help him lead into this. [02:54:21.769 – 02:54:23.449] We, um… [02:54:23.449 – 02:54:31.249] You know, f- we lose a lot of people in Alcoholics Anonymous around four, five, six, seven years, whatever it is. [02:54:31.249 – 02:54:36.129] Well, the first few years that we're sober, almost everything you hear is virgin information. [02:54:36.129 – 02:54:37.309] You wonder. [02:54:37.309 – 02:54:39.239] My sponsor, who passed away, always used to say… [02:54:39.239 – 02:54:48.889] Somebody'd say something like, you know, somebody'd say like, uh, "If you can't– If you don't get drunk today, you'll never get drunk." And he'd always go like, "God, where do these people learn these things?" Like, you know?

[02:54:48.889 – 02:54:52.329] You just have to be so brilliant with these goofy little sayings we've got. [02:54:52.329 – 02:54:56.309] But, uh, all that's new information for quite a while. [02:54:56.309 – 02:55:04.309] And then what happens is, is you come up on a time where you're sitting in meetings, and you realize you've heard about everything you're gonna hear in a meeting. [02:55:04.309 – 02:55:09.369] I heard a guy make a talk a while back, said he hadn't heard anything new in a fifth step in twenty years. [02:55:09.369 – 02:55:12.969] He said it was a different verse, but the same song.

[02:55:12.969 – 02:55:15.509] I mean, there's only so many sins. [02:55:15.509 – 02:55:16.589] There ain't no new sins. [02:55:16.589 – 02:55:17.569] Yeah. [02:55:17.569 – 02:55:18.049] I wanna… [02:55:18.049 – 02:55:20.819] I mean, I don't wanna deflate anybody, but there's- … [02:55:20.819 – 02:55:23.689] there's, you know, there's, it's, it's always been done before. [02:55:23.689 – 02:55:27.029] And if somebody, if it's humanly possible, somebody's doing it and has done it. [02:55:27.029 – 02:55:37.249] Um, but anyway, what happens is if we're not starting now to get connected to other people, that's why people start to go away. [02:55:37.249 – 02:55:44.049] I mean, if it's, if it's, if it's about information, and it's not spiritual power and growth and movement…

[02:55:44.049 – 02:55:48.169] That's why my old sponsor always used to say, "If you're working with somebody," he'd, he'd put a… [02:55:48.169 – 02:55:49.489] He didn't put a time limit on it. [02:55:49.489 – 02:55:50.489] Tom puts a time limit on it. [02:55:50.489 – 02:56:00.789] My old sponsor always used to say, "If you're working with somebody, and after a reasonable amount of time, they won't help others, drop them." And Tom always says is that, "If you're working with somebody, [02:56:00.789 – 02:56:08.249] and if after five years, at five years of sobriety or longer, they're going to meetings, and it's still about them, there's something wrong with their spiritual condition.

[02:56:08.249 – 02:56:15.649] They've missed something." Because once this power starts to move in our life, we start to get other-directed. [02:56:15.649 – 02:56:17.289] You know, I know the answer now. [02:56:17.289 – 02:56:18.529] I mean, do I own the answer? [02:56:18.529 – 02:56:20.989] Is it an in- arrogant kind of a stance at this point? [02:56:20.989 – 02:56:22.129] No, it's not. [02:56:22.129 – 02:56:27.529] It's more humble than anything of what I've been given, and it's the call to start to move forward into this. [02:56:27.529 – 02:56:32.249] But this star- starts to happen down in here as we start to clear away some of the stuff.

[02:56:32.249 – 02:56:39.969] Because what's happening now is we're doing some stuff, but we're also talking to other people and finding out that our case really isn't that much different. [02:56:39.969 – 02:56:43.129] That's one of the great things about working with others. [02:56:43.129 – 02:56:46.093] All right. [02:56:46.093 – 02:56:52.192] You know, you s– that, that when you start to working with others, you find out that your case really isn't different. [02:56:52.192 – 02:56:57.493] When you start to listen to other people's problems, you find out that you're really not different. [02:56:57.493 – 02:57:06.033] So we start to get all of that stuff out there, and that's where it's so critical to start to move forward, and the, the ideal place to do that is at the bottom of the fifth step.

[02:57:06.033 – 02:57:09.833] If, if we don't have guidance… [02:57:09.833 – 02:57:13.733] I, I've never figured out how to talk about this very well. [02:57:13.733 – 02:57:23.733] We had a thing in our sponsorship line where we get together periodically, and a bunch of us got together and, and Tom always leads the group, but we, we examined where we lose members, and we think [02:57:23.733 – 02:57:25.233] it's at the sixth and seventh step. [02:57:25.233 – 02:57:30.693] When you first look at six and seven, if you don't have good guidance, it looks like filler material.

[02:57:30.693 – 02:57:33.093] I mean, it looks like it's nothing. [02:57:33.093 – 02:57:40.813] Um, one of the ladies was talking about how much information there is about everything else and how little information there is about six and seven. [02:57:40.813 – 02:57:43.753] You know, it seems like it's a no-brainer. [02:57:43.753 – 02:57:46.553] It's almost like it's like who wouldn't wanna feel better? [02:57:46.553 – 02:57:48.113] You know? [02:57:48.113 – 02:57:50.353] The– it's, it's– there's no more to it than that. [02:57:50.353 – 02:57:55.513] Well, I would submit that this is a critical turning point in the program. [02:57:55.513 – 02:57:59.313] I would say that here's what has to happen or what I think should happen.

[02:57:59.313 – 02:58:00.833] Here's what I think happened to me. [02:58:00.833 – 02:58:09.913] The sixth step becomes to my life what the first step was to my alcoholism or to my drinking. [02:58:09.913 – 02:58:11.673] Let me say that again. [02:58:11.673 – 02:58:16.633] The sixth step becomes to my life what the first step was to my drinking. [02:58:16.633 – 02:58:26.733] So here's the question that's really in front of us when we get to the sixth and seventh step: Do [02:58:26.733 – 02:58:28.013] I wanna get well, or don't I? [02:58:28.013 – 02:58:35.243] I remember one time… [02:58:35.243 – 02:58:36.413] Tell you a quick war story.

[02:58:36.413 – 02:58:40.853] I, uh, I was sober 20 years. [02:58:40.853 – 02:58:47.333] And, um, Tom, I'll tell this story and be ready for you. [02:58:47.333 – 02:58:49.693] I was sober 20 years. [02:58:49.693 – 02:58:58.733] And, uh, now, when I got sober, when I got sober, I quit using God's name in vain for the most part. [02:58:58.733 – 02:59:04.473] I quit calling women filthy names, and I quit using disparaging racial terms. [02:59:04.473 – 02:59:06.053] Okay? [02:59:06.053 – 02:59:07.853] That's good as far as it goes, isn't it? [02:59:07.853 – 02:59:10.453] Here's what happened to me at 20 years sober. [02:59:10.453 – 02:59:15.133] If you're meeting with your sponsor and you're sober a while, and he's doing all the talking, there's a problem.

[02:59:15.133 – 02:59:20.833] And this was, this was not a, this was not a meeting that was enjoyable. [02:59:20.833 – 02:59:25.333] It wasn't brutal, but it was more businesslike, which is also never a good situation. [02:59:25.333 – 02:59:27.893] And, and here, here's what he said. [02:59:27.893 – 02:59:33.933] My words, not his, but here's what he said: "The problem with you is that you've been socialized. [02:59:33.933 – 02:59:36.453] You've learned how to act. [02:59:36.453 – 02:59:38.113] That's true. [02:59:38.113 – 02:59:40.093] You don't use God's name in vain. [02:59:40.093 – 02:59:44.813] You don't call women filthy names, and you don't use disparaging racial terms as a rule.

[02:59:44.813 – 02:59:54.453] But the cancer is still there." In other words, what's happened is, is that there's gradations to almost all spiritual growth, isn't there? [02:59:54.453 – 03:00:01.533] What he said is, is that– and a good example is, is that I've cut off the branches, but the roots are still there. [03:00:01.533 – 03:00:05.853] So the sixth and seventh step is like any other part of the program. [03:00:05.853 – 03:00:06.833] It's to be embraced. [03:00:06.833 – 03:00:08.493] It doesn't mean it's a stopping point. [03:00:08.493 – 03:00:11.713] So it's a critical turning point. [03:00:11.713 – 03:00:12.773] I've never learned how to…

[03:00:12.773 – 03:00:14.143] Uh, learn's not the right word. [03:00:14.143 – 03:00:17.863] I, I, I don't think I've ever known how to talk about the sixth and seventh step. [03:00:17.863 – 03:00:22.413] I know a lot more about it than I'm able to put into words through my experience. [03:00:22.413 – 03:00:24.193] But I'll assure you of this. [03:00:24.193 – 03:00:25.163] You can check me on this. [03:00:25.163 – 03:00:27.313] I don't think I could possibly be in the wrong on this. [03:00:27.313 – 03:00:33.553] It's by far hands in a way the least talked about steps in Alcoholics Anonymous, and I bet you it's the least practiced.

[03:00:33.553 – 03:00:42.133] But it's a critical, critical place because it's, it's, it's, it's transitional, and we're starting to move away now. [03:00:42.133 – 03:00:44.133] It, it– again, there's still focus on us. [03:00:44.133 – 03:00:50.623] There's always some focus on us, but as, again, it's to start to move in, into the other directedness, into starting to do God's work. [03:00:50.623 – 03:00:54.413] We wanna get that stuff cleared away so we can start to move forward. [03:00:54.413 – 03:01:04.623] We want some freedom from it ourselves, but then that's when the real beauty of Alcoholics Anonymous starts to come into play, when we're not encumbered with all that stuff, when we're not being hamstrung by everything

[03:01:04.623 – 03:01:05.473] that's wrong with us. [03:01:05.473 – 03:01:08.693] So it's a, it's a, it's a critical transitional point. [03:01:08.693 – 03:01:08.823] And again- [03:01:08.944 – 03:01:19.064] Again, in, in introducing Tom, I'll just say it, the sixth step became to my life like the first step was to my drinking, and it's a great place to start to move forward into [03:01:19.064 – 03:01:19.624] the program. [03:01:19.624 – 03:01:22.364] So with that, I give you the great Tom Ivester. [03:01:22.364 – 03:01:24.624] Hear, hear. [03:01:24.624 – 03:01:27.104] Well, thank you very much, Winell. [03:01:27.104 – 03:01:28.644] The, uh… [03:01:28.644 – 03:01:30.864] That's mine, isn't it? [03:01:30.864 – 03:01:32.124] Uh, yeah. [03:01:32.124 – 03:01:33.354] I think that's o- yours over there.

[03:01:33.354 – 03:01:34.064] No, it is mine. [03:01:34.064 – 03:01:34.264] Yeah. [03:01:34.264 – 03:01:34.783] Okay. [03:01:34.783 – 03:01:39.044] Grown men fighting over a little bottle of water. [03:01:39.044 – 03:01:39.164] I… [03:01:39.164 – 03:01:43.484] The, uh… [03:01:43.484 – 03:01:46.594] I wanted, I wanted to do three things. [03:01:46.594 – 03:01:48.304] Let me just get you to think about this a little bit. [03:01:48.304 – 03:01:56.044] Wanted to put one little trailer on that third step thing I wanted to mention before, and I got in a hurry to quit and quit. [03:01:56.044 – 03:02:01.084] Uh, and then also, we, we, we haven't been interactive at all, have you? [03:02:01.084 – 03:02:06.924] So as we finish up six and seven, we're gonna have from now till, uh, 4:30.

[03:02:06.924 – 03:02:07.504] Is that what time? [03:02:07.504 – 03:02:08.344] 4:30 this afternoon, yeah. [03:02:08.344 – 03:02:08.824] Yeah. [03:02:08.824 – 03:02:16.604] Well, we'll, we'll take one, one break between now and then, but, uh, at, at some point we're gonna open up here to just to be interactive a little bit. [03:02:16.604 – 03:02:22.684] Could be a thing about anything that you wanna, wanna bring up, comment, question, uh, whatever. [03:02:22.684 – 03:02:24.024] Uh, feel free. [03:02:24.024 – 03:02:28.624] Uh, we really would like for you, just like we said in the beginning, now we don't want this to be one dimensional kinda thing.

[03:02:28.624 – 03:02:31.384] And, uh, well, thank you. [03:02:31.384 – 03:02:33.304] That was excellent work on that fourth and fifth. [03:02:33.304 – 03:02:43.404] The, uh, thing I wanted to mention on the third step is, uh, in, in, you know, in, in addition to the freedom that we have, [03:02:43.404 – 03:02:53.404] I, I think it's gonna become increasingly important for us to be open-minded and, uh, thoughtful about how we practice this, not [03:02:53.404 – 03:02:57.344] just in our personal lives, but how we, how we practice it in our interaction with other members.

[03:02:57.344 – 03:03:02.984] And I'll tell you just a couple of things that maybe just to, to reinforce that a bit. [03:03:02.984 – 03:03:13.043] I was– I spoke at a meeting up in, uh, Chapel Hill a while back, and, uh, it was, uh, I didn't intend to do it, but you know how sometimes it, you, [03:03:13.044 – 03:03:16.144] you, you talk doesn't go where you think it ought to go, and it… [03:03:16.144 – 03:03:20.284] I wound up, and it was almost a totally spiritual talk. [03:03:20.284 – 03:03:25.304] And I hadn't planned on anything like– Well, I hadn't planned anything, but it just sorta went that way.

[03:03:25.304 – 03:03:26.524] Shows you who's in charge. [03:03:26.524 – 03:03:36.664] And, uh, so we got through, and there was a, a young woman came up to me afterward, and she said, "Can I talk with you about [03:03:36.664 – 03:03:42.644] something kinda sensitive?" And I said, "Well, sure, Helen G, whatever." And she said, "I really appreciated the talk. [03:03:42.644 – 03:03:52.704] That was a very spiritual talk, and I appreciate it." And she, she said, "What I'd like to ask you is why do we close the meeting with that prayer?" And we'd

[03:03:52.704 – 03:03:57.204] done the Our Father, just like we do a-al-almost around the world, but not everywhere. [03:03:57.204 – 03:04:04.324] And she said, "Why do we close the meeting with that prayer?" And so I gave her the kind of a party line stammer and said, "Well, yeah, I don't know. [03:04:04.324 – 03:04:05.564] We've always done it that way. [03:04:05.564 – 03:04:11.364] We had a s- uh, a real close association with the Oxford meeting, Oxford Group, which was quite Christian. [03:04:11.364 – 03:04:17.944] We had a lot of religious leaders that were influential in the development of AA." All just kinda party line stuff.

[03:04:17.944 – 03:04:20.584] And, uh, she listened very attentively. [03:04:20.584 – 03:04:24.663] And, uh, she said, she said, "I appreciate that. [03:04:24.663 – 03:04:30.484] But why do we close the meeting with that prayer?" We're right back where we started. [03:04:30.484 – 03:04:36.024] And I said, "Well, the long and short of it is I can't really tell you. [03:04:36.024 – 03:04:37.404] That's just something we do. [03:04:37.404 – 03:04:38.704] I mean, we've been doing that. [03:04:38.704 – 03:04:48.724] And the one thing you gotta realize about alcoholics, if we do something one time, it's a sacred tradition." "And we have to do it forever." And I said, "Other than that, I can't give you a real good

[03:04:48.724 – 03:04:58.924] reason why we, why we do that." And I said, "Why, why do you ask?" And she said, she said, "Well, you know, I'm not, uh, uh, I'm not a basket case over anything," [03:04:58.924 – 03:05:09.144] but she said, "I'm an Orthodox Jew, and, uh, it, it is not, it doesn't make me gag or that, but that prayer is totally foreign to my religion." [03:05:09.144 – 03:05:19.204] And, uh, she said, "What I do every, every time I come to the meeting is that I patiently just sort of, sort of join you folks while you pray, but it's got nothing to do with me."

[03:05:19.204 – 03:05:23.084] And, uh, I said, "Well, yeah, I can kind of understand that. [03:05:23.084 – 03:05:28.564] And I wish I had a better s- better answer for you, but I don't." And, uh, and that was the truth, you know? [03:05:28.564 – 03:05:36.504] And, and as we become more and more diverse, which we are rapidly doing, uh, we're gonna have more and more challenging situations like that. [03:05:36.504 – 03:05:39.974] And so one thing I think we've, we have, we've, we've, uh… [03:05:39.974 – 03:05:49.464] I'm, I'm not campaigning in any particular direction other than to just be attentive and realize that step applies to everybody, not just me.

[03:05:49.464 – 03:05:54.084] If I've got that freedom, then I've gotta be willing to allow that freedom to somebody else. [03:05:54.084 – 03:06:04.164] And so when things come up that, that, that have a little divergent, uh, uh, quality to them, I think we have to be patient and, and realize that we are in a changing [03:06:04.164 – 03:06:06.664] world, and everybody's not gonna fit one mold. [03:06:06.664 – 03:06:09.364] And so just something I think we have to be prepared for. [03:06:09.364 – 03:06:19.384] The other, a little bit more, a little bit more, uh, in, in that vein, but

[03:06:19.384 – 03:06:29.984] contrary to that vein, I, I've got a lot of concern about a, a sort of a c- a creeping intrusion [03:06:29.984 – 03:06:41.084] in a, a, a very deliberate, uh, actions to try to get organized religion established in Alcoholics Anonymous so [03:06:41.084 – 03:06:44.684] that it's openly, uh, uh, practiced and get… [03:06:44.684 – 03:06:46.164] I was in a, in another… [03:06:46.164 – 03:06:47.904] Well, I'll, I'll tell you what. [03:06:47.904 – 03:06:49.544] See, I was over in Utah a while back. [03:06:49.544 – 03:06:55.964] And, uh, Utah is dominated by an overwhelmingly powerful church. [03:06:55.964 – 03:07:00.404] And in the course of it, I started…

[03:07:00.404 – 03:07:10.680] I was over at a prison, and, and one of the inmates said to me, a-after to me, he said, "Did you approve LDS AA?" [03:07:10.680 – 03:07:13.220] And I said, "Well, number one, I don't approve anything. [03:07:13.220 – 03:07:23.400] That's not the way we operate." And I said, "What is LDSAA?" And, and what it is, it's a Mormon church, uh, application, uh, Latter-day [03:07:23.400 – 03:07:25.660] Saints version of Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:07:25.660 – 03:07:26.520] I'd never heard of it. [03:07:26.520 – 03:07:36.640] And I'd heard that there was a, you know, a little, little sort of awkwardness between AA and the, and, and the Mormon Church, but no real range war or anything

[03:07:36.640 – 03:07:37.100] like that. [03:07:37.100 – 03:07:39.420] And, uh, so I was… [03:07:39.420 – 03:07:44.700] I, I thought about that, and I sponsored a guy who was a former Mormon missionary there, so I talked with him about it. [03:07:44.700 – 03:07:51.700] And, and, and what it is, is, um, that there's not a war. [03:07:51.700 – 03:07:54.320] There's not open warfare or anything like that. [03:07:54.320 – 03:08:04.340] But, for example, the word has it, I don't know if it's true or not, but word has it that if there is a, a c- group [03:08:04.340 – 03:08:11.040] that meets at a Mormon facility, they will not allow another group to come in, and it'll be replaced with LDSAA.

[03:08:11.040 – 03:08:13.400] And now that's… [03:08:13.400 – 03:08:14.940] You know, we don't have protections. [03:08:14.940 – 03:08:16.360] We don't have copyrights. [03:08:16.360 – 03:08:18.720] We don't have any ownership, you know. [03:08:18.720 – 03:08:28.480] Our steps are, are, are principles that are as old as time, and so they're not unique to Alcoholics Anonymous, and we don't have any proprietary rights to, uh, to protect these things. [03:08:28.480 – 03:08:33.500] But it, it's a kind of a, a, a movement that's going on. [03:08:33.500 – 03:08:43.500] And, um, so somebody sent me some material about that, and I'll give you just one example of what that looks like, and then you f- you think about it in terms of

[03:08:43.500 – 03:08:47.040] what we're talking about of, of the open-mindedness about how we approach this. [03:08:47.040 – 03:08:58.380] The second step, that Steve was just talking about so well, is, uh, is worded that, "Came to believe that [03:08:58.380 – 03:09:08.420] a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." Well, that's a little bit of a, [03:09:08.420 – 03:09:11.120] of an abrupt departure from God as we understand Him, eh? [03:09:11.120 – 03:09:14.780] And, uh, so it, it's, it's what we're dealing with. [03:09:14.780 – 03:09:19.820] It's an emerging reality in this world, and, you know, how we'll deal with it, I don't know.

[03:09:19.820 – 03:09:28.220] You know, the, the, the, the hard fact is that in, in Salt Lake City, they, they got a huge, uh, penal, uh, community out there where there's a bunch of penal facilities. [03:09:28.220 – 03:09:38.280] And right now, LDSAA is prominently available in every one of those facilities, and it has priority over anything [03:09:38.280 – 03:09:43.020] like schedule or space or whatever, and conventional AA gets what's left. [03:09:43.020 – 03:09:50.369] And, uh, it's not open warfare, but it's an evolutionary kind of development that's happening in our fellowship.

[03:09:50.369 – 03:09:58.540] And so when we think about a thing like God as we understand Him, and then take a look at our traditions, we got some huge challenges to, to, to deal with. [03:09:58.540 – 03:10:08.560] And so I think it's not just enough for me to be free and open in my thinking, but as we grow in the program, we become more responsible to take, take thoughtful [03:10:08.560 – 03:10:11.420] actions to try to deal with things like this. [03:10:11.420 – 03:10:17.400] And how we'll do that, I don't know, but I think some, you know, a little bit of what we're doing here today may have a little something to do with something like that.

[03:10:17.400 – 03:10:20.620] So anyway, y- just keep that in mind. [03:10:20.620 – 03:10:24.980] Well, I'll tell you one other one that, um, you, you might have seen it here. [03:10:24.980 – 03:10:35.020] I got a, uh, with that wonderful email, m-marvel, I got something in the mail, and it was about [03:10:35.020 – 03:10:38.020] a convention that's being put together. [03:10:38.020 – 03:10:48.400] It's either a national or international convention in Las Vegas, and the theme of the conference is how to influence Alcoholics [03:10:48.400 – 03:10:51.360] Anonymous to be more receptive to organized religion. [03:10:51.360 – 03:11:01.360] And the convener of that conference is an extremely well-known person, a highly published author.

[03:11:01.360 – 03:11:07.240] I guarantee you they'll have a, a considerable representation at that convention. [03:11:07.240 – 03:11:12.940] So it's not just sort of philosophical bubbling in the lo– in the locker room. [03:11:12.940 – 03:11:17.860] There are things that, that are coming that we're gonna be affected by one way or another. [03:11:17.860 – 03:11:22.400] You know, whether we, whether we get involved in any of it or not, that just remains to be seen. [03:11:22.400 – 03:11:22.580] Yeah. [03:11:22.580 – 03:11:23.640] Danielle. [03:11:23.640 – 03:11:25.300] Wait a minute now. [03:11:25.300 – 03:11:34.040] And then kind of on the flip side of that, which you've probably already- Gotta turn it on, Danielle.

[03:11:34.040 – 03:11:35.449] Oh, I thought- Oh, shoot. [03:11:35.449 – 03:11:36.340] That's, that was my job. [03:11:36.340 – 03:11:37.570] Sorry. [03:11:37.570 – 03:11:38.509] There you go. [03:11:38.509 – 03:11:38.820] Is it on? [03:11:38.820 – 03:11:39.160] Okay. [03:11:39.160 – 03:11:39.240] Yeah. [03:11:39.240 – 03:11:39.630] Gotcha. [03:11:39.630 – 03:11:48.150] Um, so on the flip side of that, and I'm sure you've heard about this too, is that some of the prisons are so focused on separate- [03:11:48.379 – 03:11:57.279] of church and state, that they're actually not allowing any organized religion groups, and they're including AA in that group. [03:11:57.279 – 03:12:01.459] So that's another difficulty. [03:12:01.459 – 03:12:09.619] Yeah, it, it is, it is another wrinkle in the, uh, in the fabric.

[03:12:09.619 – 03:12:11.599] It is another wrinkle in that. [03:12:11.599 – 03:12:21.619] The, uh, pro- it's, it's no problem in, in, uh, Utah because U- Utah is 80% Mormon so the staff at the prison [03:12:21.619 – 03:12:23.079] is 80% Mormon. [03:12:23.079 – 03:12:24.959] There is no conflict in Utah. [03:12:24.959 – 03:12:31.179] But that is kind of a bubbling issue about, uh, this whole business of church and state and that kind of thing. [03:12:31.179 – 03:12:39.859] We've, we've tried to not have AA identified as a religious body, but that's a little hard to pull off, you know, that…

[03:12:39.859 – 03:12:42.859] So yeah, we've got a lot of things that are, that are practice. [03:12:42.859 – 03:12:50.779] So if– My, my point is that what we're talking about here at the personal level, you know, is certainly, that's, that's fine and it's important. [03:12:50.779 – 03:12:59.399] But as responsible members that are growing in the fellowship, somebody has to deal with these kind of things, and somebody is us. [03:12:59.399 – 03:13:00.819] That's who it is. [03:13:00.819 – 03:13:07.119] And, uh, so I just want to bring that up that, that it's a dimension of, of the, of the steps.

[03:13:07.119 – 03:13:12.019] You know, it bleeds over into tradition, but it's, it's very, very real things that we have to deal with. [03:13:12.019 – 03:13:15.379] And, and so, and how we'll do it, I don't know. [03:13:15.379 – 03:13:25.839] That's, that's why I'm so deeply thankful about that God as we understand Him, uh, that was such a wonder– it has been such a wonderful kind of a portal of entry [03:13:25.839 – 03:13:31.019] to aid us guys like me and many others like me, you know, come into the fellowship.

[03:13:31.019 – 03:13:37.419] So it, it is just sort of a bubbling kind of an issue that we'll hear more about as, as time goes by, for sure. [03:13:37.419 – 03:13:41.979] I'd, uh, started… [03:13:41.979 – 03:13:43.759] Uh, I won't even, I won't even go there. [03:13:43.759 – 03:13:44.649] That's, that's tough. [03:13:44.649 – 03:13:50.139] I started to say I'd send some material, but it's fifty-five pages for that conference. [03:13:50.139 – 03:13:54.959] They, they wanted me to fill out a fifty-five page questionnaire of how much I endorse that. [03:13:54.959 – 03:13:59.799] And, uh, the recycling bin was so pleased to receive that.

[03:13:59.799 – 03:14:02.299] The… [03:14:02.299 – 03:14:06.479] So it, uh, so it is something else. [03:14:06.479 – 03:14:09.619] So, uh, just no extra charge for that now. [03:14:09.619 – 03:14:13.359] We'll just throw in a little extra dimension in, in what we're talking about here today. [03:14:13.359 – 03:14:17.079] And, uh, now we wanna, we'll, we'll move into, uh… [03:14:17.079 – 03:14:19.179] Any- anybody else, by the way, that… [03:14:19.179 – 03:14:20.699] Anything at all? [03:14:20.699 – 03:14:24.479] Don't hesitate now, because it does liven the party when you get involved in it. [03:14:24.479 – 03:14:26.179] So feel free anytime. [03:14:26.179 – 03:14:30.899] Oh, I don't need this when I got that.

[03:14:30.899 – 03:14:32.419] Yeah, shut it off. [03:14:32.419 – 03:14:35.299] Got a double mic in here. [03:14:35.299 – 03:14:40.879] Six and seven, I think Wally all hit those darn well. [03:14:40.879 – 03:14:49.219] I was, I was thinking when, when he started in on six and seven, a while back, he talked about, uh, the depth that are in those steps. [03:14:49.219 – 03:14:56.399] There's a group of us that, uh, a group of our herd that, uh, meet every once in a while. [03:14:56.399 – 03:15:01.059] And we'll just pull up a place somewhere, go to somebody's house and kill a buffalo or something.

[03:15:01.059 – 03:15:05.279] But we, we'll just have sort of a hangout, cookout type of deal. [03:15:05.279 – 03:15:12.859] And, uh, we, we always pick a topic before– but not before, but we pick a topic at the meeting. [03:15:12.859 – 03:15:17.899] And it's always about, how can I grow further as a leader? [03:15:17.899 – 03:15:19.819] How can I be more effective in my work? [03:15:19.819 – 03:15:23.019] It's never m- the basic survival stuff, you know. [03:15:23.019 – 03:15:27.739] That we wanna, we wanna look at things we can do to make a greater contribution in the program.

[03:15:27.739 – 03:15:32.799] And I think it was the last one we, that we did was on six and seven. [03:15:32.799 – 03:15:35.559] Now, he's talking about the depth of those. [03:15:35.559 – 03:15:45.699] We went for half a day, half a day at six and seven, and there was not a dull moment in it because they are critically, critically important steps. [03:15:45.699 – 03:15:46.939] Oh, yeah, wait just one minute. [03:15:46.939 – 03:15:47.739] I don't need that. [03:15:47.739 – 03:15:48.399] No, you do. [03:15:48.399 – 03:15:48.429] No. [03:15:48.429 – 03:15:49.119] We need it. [03:15:49.119 – 03:15:49.519] We need it. [03:15:49.519 – 03:15:51.509] I can scre– I can help talk a little bit.

[03:15:51.509 – 03:15:52.899] No, no, you're not talking to them. [03:15:52.899 – 03:15:53.349] I don't have to use that. [03:15:53.349 – 03:15:56.279] You're talking to all the people who are gonna buy that CD just to hear you. [03:15:56.279 – 03:15:56.699] I'm sorry. [03:15:56.699 – 03:15:58.459] Okay. [03:15:58.459 – 03:16:00.759] Um, I skimped on six and seven. [03:16:00.759 – 03:16:01.299] Okay? [03:16:01.299 – 03:16:04.359] I thought, "Oh, yeah, whatever," and I moved right on. [03:16:04.359 – 03:16:10.079] Now, I've done all my steps, so do I need to go back to six and seven now? [03:16:10.079 – 03:16:12.339] Because I just kinda blew it off. [03:16:12.339 – 03:16:13.519] Uh, and my… [03:16:13.519 – 03:16:16.439] I don't believe my sponsor really knocked this into my head.

[03:16:16.439 – 03:16:21.479] "Go now for one hour and sit and see if you've forgotten anything." I didn't do that. [03:16:21.479 – 03:16:30.819] I thought, "Well, nah, I didn't forget anything, and I'm gonna get on with my life." And then seven, asking God to remove my defects of character, I didn't do that either. [03:16:30.819 – 03:16:40.059] But now that I'm, you know, almost eight years sober, I'm working on my seven constantly, these defects of character. [03:16:40.059 – 03:16:41.339] So I don't know what… [03:16:41.339 – 03:16:42.819] What would you recommend that I do?

[03:16:42.819 – 03:16:46.979] B- because I kinda skimped, as you said a lot of people do. [03:16:46.979 – 03:16:51.979] Well, frankly, I think what you took was an easier, softer way. [03:16:51.979 – 03:16:53.749] Yeah. [03:16:53.749 – 03:16:56.759] But the, the problem is that it skips a vital thing. [03:16:56.759 – 03:17:00.109] And, and just assuming something… [03:17:00.109 – 03:17:08.839] I think the key thing in six and seven, for me, it's a huge decision point, and it's where the, the game changes. [03:17:08.839 – 03:17:12.858] You know, that like f- like he did a great job with inventory. [03:17:12.858 – 03:17:20.439] And, and, and what, you know, what comes out in that inventory is understanding, when I say I'm an alcoholic, what am I talking about?

[03:17:20.439 – 03:17:23.979] When I talk about obsessions and this kind of thing, what am I talking about? [03:17:23.979 – 03:17:26.119] What are the forces that drive me? [03:17:26.119 – 03:17:27.659] What are the ones that hold me back? [03:17:27.659 – 03:17:30.919] And so we've gotten through with this. [03:17:30.919 – 03:17:35.199] It's, it's kinda like we finished the diagnosis. [03:17:35.199 – 03:17:38.179] You know, the, the patient's alive, but pretty sick. [03:17:38.179 – 03:17:41.639] We finished the diagnosis, and now it's time for the surgery. [03:17:41.639 – 03:17:43.479] And the, uh… [03:17:43.479 – 03:17:47.699] And so six and seven, for me, it's a key decision point.

[03:17:47.699 – 03:17:50.859] I think they're hugely important steps. [03:17:50.859 – 03:17:51.899] Hugely important. [03:17:51.899 – 03:17:53.895] Because it's, it's, it's… [03:17:53.895 – 03:17:58.295] What it, what it boils down to, and man, I like to keep stuff real simple so I can understand it. [03:17:58.295 – 03:18:04.275] And what it boils down to is, all right, you've looked at the conditions, you've looked at the problem. [03:18:04.275 – 03:18:07.995] Now the question is, do you wanna change or don't you? [03:18:07.995 – 03:18:10.575] Do you wanna change or don't you? [03:18:10.575 – 03:18:14.115] Do you wanna get rid of these things and be free, or don't you?

[03:18:14.115 – 03:18:16.515] And that's not always a simple question. [03:18:16.515 – 03:18:23.855] When I got to six and seven, I le- genuinely had to labor over whether I truly wanted to change. [03:18:23.855 – 03:18:26.375] I wanted to, but not too much. [03:18:26.375 – 03:18:29.495] You know, like, like I'd pray, but I'd only close one eye. [03:18:29.495 – 03:18:32.935] You know, 'cause I, I wanted to stay in contact down here. [03:18:32.935 – 03:18:35.675] And so I didn't wanna get too good too quick. [03:18:35.675 – 03:18:37.455] I, it's kinda goofy thinking. [03:18:37.455 – 03:18:39.215] But that's really what it's saying about.

[03:18:39.215 – 03:18:43.235] And, uh, goody two shoes was not on my desk card. [03:18:43.235 – 03:18:43.335] I… [03:18:43.335 – 03:18:45.155] But that's, that's what I saw. [03:18:45.155 – 03:18:53.955] And then to come to understand that, you know, what it really boiled down to, I truly didn't wanna be a drunk. [03:18:53.955 – 03:18:56.395] I didn't wanna be an embarrassment. [03:18:56.395 – 03:18:58.295] I didn't wanna be the butt of jokes. [03:18:58.295 – 03:19:01.635] I didn't wanna be some clown that couldn't be trusted by anybody. [03:19:01.635 – 03:19:03.075] You know, that… [03:19:03.075 – 03:19:04.335] And that's what it came down to. [03:19:04.335 – 03:19:11.625] But, but my first thought was to reject it and say, "No, I'm not ready for all that." You know, we'll let that happen as it comes.

[03:19:11.625 – 03:19:13.755] But I think it's a key decision point. [03:19:13.755 – 03:19:22.255] And without it, we don't tend to do the things that are required, because we're going into some heavy lifting when we get past six and seven. [03:19:22.255 – 03:19:32.295] And, and, and if we don't have real clear grasp on that and the urgent desire to, to, to be well, we're not gonna do a good job of, of taking the actions that are [03:19:32.295 – 03:19:32.775] necessary. [03:19:32.775 – 03:19:41.455] And it's like that, uh, as Steve mentioned too, that, like I mentioned about that, my first experience taking folks through the book.

[03:19:41.455 – 03:19:51.635] The people that I saw that we lost were always, without fail, those who, [03:19:51.635 – 03:20:01.775] who deviated normally at six and seven, where they start taking a look at the need to change and opt for an easier, softer [03:20:01.775 – 03:20:02.095] way. [03:20:02.095 – 03:20:10.555] And, and what, what the folks going through the book would do would be to wind up just s- slipping off into just dropping in on meetings. [03:20:10.555 – 03:20:14.675] You know, sort of just working at the level of survival. [03:20:14.675 – 03:20:16.675] And casualty rate was high.

[03:20:16.675 – 03:20:18.535] We had a suicide out of that bunch. [03:20:18.535 – 03:20:25.635] So I think it's a key and critical thing of whether I truly want to change and have a new life. [03:20:25.635 – 03:20:33.135] And so instead of examining ourself, now we start looking at how do we grow in the spiritual life. [03:20:33.135 – 03:20:35.155] And then how do we start taking… [03:20:35.155 – 03:20:38.275] My belief, now I'm a pretty, pretty practical guy. [03:20:38.275 – 03:20:46.475] My belief is that my prayer in the seventh step is answered by the eighth step.

[03:20:46.475 – 03:20:53.175] You know, that God will answer that prayer, but He'll answer it by pulling me on into the amends process. [03:20:53.175 – 03:20:56.975] My freedom comes from my actions, not as just a gift. [03:20:56.975 – 03:21:05.835] My freedom comes from getting rid of those things that eat me up, those things that, that, that I can't get off my mind, those things that eat my lunch on a regular basis. [03:21:05.835 – 03:21:07.595] That they won't go away. [03:21:07.595 – 03:21:11.735] I've never had God just mysteriously do– remove a defect of character.

[03:21:11.735 – 03:21:19.135] You know, what I find is that when I start taking the actions, amazing stuff happens, you know, and I become a free man. [03:21:19.135 – 03:21:27.395] I mentioned, in fact, I was talking with Bill at the, at the break about the strange thing about this whole process of amends and where it leads. [03:21:27.395 – 03:21:31.395] Uh, you know, I was talking about he even had shared the kind of a thing. [03:21:31.395 – 03:21:40.895] Had the, uh, had the, uh, I mentioned about my dad leaving when he was four– when I was, when I was four years old.

[03:21:40.895 – 03:21:43.115] Now you talk about a schizy conversation. [03:21:43.115 – 03:21:47.375] When I'd been sober about probably 12 or 15 years… [03:21:47.375 – 03:21:51.935] Hang on to this for a minute, but I think we'll get at what you're talking about. [03:21:51.935 – 03:22:00.195] That, that when I'd been sober about 12 or 15 years, and I'd done a lot of amends work, powerfully important amends work. [03:22:00.195 – 03:22:08.755] But I started to be troubled of the fact that I needed to make amends to my dad, and I didn't even know him.

[03:22:08.755 – 03:22:09.775] You know? [03:22:09.775 – 03:22:14.835] You know, what had I done as a four-year-old child that I needed to make amends to this guy? [03:22:14.835 – 03:22:18.555] And I'm, I mean, I'm talking, I'm sober for a pretty good while. [03:22:18.555 – 03:22:20.135] But that made no sense to me. [03:22:20.135 – 03:22:25.075] And so I've got this schizy conversation with myself, "You need to do that." "No, you don't. [03:22:25.075 – 03:22:26.685] That's goofy." You know? [03:22:26.685 – 03:22:27.385] And then it finally- [03:22:27.640 – 03:22:30.920] It dawned on to me what it says it pretty plainly in the book.

[03:22:30.920 – 03:22:41.160] It's about my side of the street, and it wasn't about his fatherhood, it was about how I handled the experiences that I had as a son, and what I carried [03:22:41.160 – 03:22:45.600] around, and what I built in, and what, what, what ate me up on a regular basis. [03:22:45.600 – 03:22:53.480] And I didn't name his name, but it was all a part of that sort of, sort of gnarled up stuff that called for a drink. [03:22:53.480 – 03:22:59.800] And when I went to make amends to that fella, it was, it was an awkward situation to be sure.

[03:22:59.800 – 03:23:03.840] I, I just told him, I, I, I didn't tell him I was coming. [03:23:03.840 – 03:23:05.399] I, I learned where he lived. [03:23:05.399 – 03:23:10.200] And because I knew if he left me at 4:00 I knew he'd run at 30, I … [03:23:10.200 – 03:23:13.620] So, so, so I went… [03:23:13.620 – 03:23:15.080] I just walked in unannounced. [03:23:15.080 – 03:23:18.380] And, uh, he was standing in the yard talking to a neighbor. [03:23:18.380 – 03:23:21.340] And, uh, so I walked up, introduced myself. [03:23:21.340 – 03:23:28.780] And, uh, and the, the neighbor had enough sense to see that he didn't need to stick around, so And so I sat down with my dad.

[03:23:28.780 – 03:23:30.060] Spent a couple hours. [03:23:30.060 – 03:23:31.140] Had… [03:23:31.140 – 03:23:39.500] And, and this is what you get, what you don't get if you don't really get into that thing of really wanting to make the decision to, to take the action to make it happen. [03:23:39.500 – 03:23:40.440] I wouldn't have done that. [03:23:40.440 – 03:23:42.320] It's just a clear, logical thing to do. [03:23:42.320 – 03:23:46.700] And we didn't, we didn't assume any father-son relationship. [03:23:46.700 – 03:23:50.300] He was not capable of fatherhood, and that's his problem. [03:23:50.300 – 03:23:54.360] And, and so I made amends to him, and I walked away from there a free man.

[03:23:54.360 – 03:23:57.060] And later on, I was able to help with his… [03:23:57.060 – 03:24:00.920] When he died, I was able to help his new family with the funeral and stuff like that. [03:24:00.920 – 03:24:02.380] It, it freed me. [03:24:02.380 – 03:24:12.380] And, and so that's the thing that I think you overlook if, if you, uh, if, if you don't catch the subtleties of that thing, that what I'm trying to do is get rid of these defects or characters [03:24:12.380 – 03:24:14.580] that I honest to God wanna change. [03:24:14.580 – 03:24:23.640] And I think it's important to say that out loud, 'cause otherwise when we get to the amends process, we won't have the motivation that we need for that, and we'll tend to crib on it, you know.

[03:24:23.640 – 03:24:24.820] And that's… [03:24:24.820 – 03:24:29.820] And the, and the bottom line that's most important is that this is where we lose folks. [03:24:29.820 – 03:24:37.590] We lose folks when it gets to the point of I'm no longer staring at my navel and studying myself- Mm-hmm … [03:24:37.590 – 03:24:39.840] and it's time now to take some action and get well. [03:24:39.840 – 03:24:46.140] And that's where we tend to lose them, and they'll drift off into that survival mode, and then right out, you know. [03:24:46.140 – 03:24:49.180] So I, I think they're key and critical steps, very much so.

[03:24:49.180 – 03:24:50.600] Thanks for asking about that, though. [03:24:50.600 – 03:24:52.669] I, I think they're vi- Go back to them? [03:24:52.669 – 03:24:52.840] Huh? [03:24:52.840 – 03:24:54.750] Do I go back to these steps? [03:24:54.750 – 03:24:55.100] I would. [03:24:55.100 – 03:24:55.810] And swallow them? [03:24:55.810 – 03:24:56.280] I would. [03:24:56.280 – 03:24:59.080] Yeah, you cheated yourself is what you did. [03:24:59.080 – 03:25:01.260] And so I, I think it's just… [03:25:01.260 – 03:25:05.020] And, and if, you may not need to go back and redo an inventory and all that kind of thing. [03:25:05.020 – 03:25:08.760] If you're satisfied with the inventory, what you skip is six and seven. [03:25:08.760 – 03:25:10.000] Just go back and do what it says.

[03:25:10.000 – 03:25:14.420] And then ask yourself, "Am I really ready to have God remove these defects? [03:25:14.420 – 03:25:16.329] Am I ready to change?" Absolutely. [03:25:16.329 – 03:25:23.000] And if so, ask him, and then his answer is gonna be, yeah, jump on eight and, uh, with gusto. [03:25:23.000 – 03:25:23.860] Yeah, I'd do it. [03:25:23.860 – 03:25:24.250] All right. [03:25:24.250 – 03:25:24.640] I would for sure. [03:25:24.640 – 03:25:28.500] That's why we got 12 steps, you know, so we don't skip two of them. [03:25:28.500 – 03:25:30.310] Thank you. [03:25:30.310 – 03:25:30.800] Thank you very much. [03:25:30.800 – 03:25:32.620] The, uh… [03:25:32.620 – 03:25:34.880] Thank you very much, sir. [03:25:34.880 – 03:25:45.780] Uh, eight and nine are real, real good little reference right in the front part of that where it's talking about eight and nine

[03:25:45.780 – 03:25:54.400] that, uh, you- it says something like, of, of course, we're working on ourselves at this point in the program, but our real purpose is what? [03:25:54.400 – 03:25:56.880] To be of maximum service to God, knows it's about us. [03:25:56.880 – 03:26:01.500] And so there's a motive to this thing beyond just my own personal relief. [03:26:01.500 – 03:26:07.220] And, uh, I'll just, I'll just share with you a little bit about, uh, the… [03:26:07.220 – 03:26:07.410] It covered… [03:26:07.410 – 03:26:17.420] Making amends is a, was a, a, a difficult thing for me, but it was one in which I had, uh, a lot of need to make amends, knew that I had a need to make

[03:26:17.420 – 03:26:19.140] amends and wanted to. [03:26:19.140 – 03:26:22.980] Um, I've seen by… [03:26:22.980 – 03:26:31.160] I don't know of, but maybe one person in all of the amends that I needed to make that really wanted to hear it. [03:26:31.160 – 03:26:39.919] Everybody that I ever had to make amends to, except for one I could think of, uh, just didn't want… [03:26:39.919 – 03:26:40.600] They want- didn't want… [03:26:40.600 – 03:26:50.720] They just wanted to sort of pat me on the head and say, "There, it's okay." And, uh, and, uh, that's understandable, but the weight

[03:26:50.720 – 03:26:51.460] is on me. [03:26:51.460 – 03:26:54.600] And, and so I'm the one that need to make the amends. [03:26:54.600 – 03:26:58.280] I don't need somebody's, uh, endorsement and approval to do it. [03:26:58.280 – 03:27:00.060] I just, I'm the guy that needs to do it. [03:27:00.060 – 03:27:02.120] And, and I've dealt with some. [03:27:02.120 – 03:27:06.820] I'll, I'll, I'll deal with this because we're in a workshop setting and it's, uh… [03:27:06.820 – 03:27:12.200] Sometimes you, you've got amends that, that just seem like they're impossible to make. [03:27:12.200 – 03:27:14.220] And, and I was one of those. [03:27:14.220 – 03:27:20.000] You know, I'd, I'd, I'd alluded a little earlier, didn't talk about it, and I'll, I'll maybe talk a little bit more about it tonight.

[03:27:20.000 – 03:27:24.980] But, uh, I was somebody that was directly responsible for the deaths of two people. [03:27:24.980 – 03:27:33.200] And, and if you don't think there's, there's some things that'll just eat you up be- beyond belief, uh, just use your imagination. [03:27:33.200 – 03:27:43.219] And, uh, even though I was a real character, when, when I, when I was greeted with the fact that I had done something like that, I didn't even [03:27:43.220 – 03:27:43.560] know it. [03:27:43.560 – 03:27:53.670] You know, I was a guy just like tons of people in this country every day that was, uh, uh, uh, did something I think everybody in this room could identify with if you're, particularly

[03:27:53.670 – 03:27:54.880] if you're somebody who had blackouts. [03:27:54.880 – 03:28:01.279] And, uh, I came awake one time, many times with panicky fear about what I'd done. [03:28:01.279 – 03:28:06.200] And, and, and most of the time it would be relatively, relatively minor. [03:28:06.200 – 03:28:09.420] But, but, but my worst fears were realized one time. [03:28:09.420 – 03:28:15.560] I came to in jail up in Michigan where I was living, so to speak, where I was hanging out. [03:28:15.560 – 03:28:19.540] And, uh, didn't even know what I was in there for. [03:28:19.540 – 03:28:23.520] Assumed it was for the same as always, you know, just drunk or hustling or whatever.

[03:28:23.520 – 03:28:31.442] And, uh- And when I was awake a little while, you know, I, I, I, I knew the, the, the routine there very well. [03:28:31.442 – 03:28:33.172] I was a regular customer. [03:28:33.172 – 03:28:33.812] And I… [03:28:33.812 – 03:28:35.902] And I knew when getting out time was, you know. [03:28:35.902 – 03:28:40.832] And the jailer would come by, and he would, uh, uh, talk to anybody who wanted to try to get a release somehow. [03:28:40.832 – 03:28:43.562] And a guy came by, and I called out to him. [03:28:43.562 – 03:28:45.112] I was standing at the bar, and I called out to him.

[03:28:45.112 – 03:28:49.872] I said, "Hey, guy, when can I get out?" And he said, "I hope never," and walked off. [03:28:49.872 – 03:28:52.452] And I had no idea what he was talking about. [03:28:52.452 – 03:28:54.312] And then, uh… [03:28:54.312 – 03:28:57.032] And he didn't say anything, but I knew he was very serious about that. [03:28:57.032 – 03:28:57.832] There was no question. [03:28:57.832 – 03:29:00.672] And, uh, so he kept going. [03:29:00.672 – 03:29:03.052] I walked back into the, to the, to the tank. [03:29:03.052 – 03:29:13.612] And some guys in there told me that the, that the night before, some guy had been driving drunk down the main street of the city and had struck and killed two people,

[03:29:13.612 – 03:29:18.492] and, um, that I had been arrested for the crime and had absolutely no… [03:29:18.492 – 03:29:21.952] I mean, you know, the mind will only accept what it can handle. [03:29:21.952 – 03:29:25.732] And my response to that was just to refuse to believe it. [03:29:25.732 – 03:29:32.852] And, you know, I could believe anything, but there, there's a difference between what you can believe and what you're able to believe, and I just could not accept it. [03:29:32.852 – 03:29:34.752] I couldn't handle the information. [03:29:34.752 – 03:29:37.712] And so I just refused to believe that I'd done something like that.

[03:29:37.712 – 03:29:41.652] I knew, always knew I was capable of anything, but never believed it would happen. [03:29:41.652 – 03:29:51.732] And when I, when I was greeted with that, my response was just, uh, to refuse to accept the information, and then gradually accepted the truth, that, [03:29:51.732 – 03:29:55.532] that I had done more damage than any human ever ought to be allowed to do. [03:29:55.532 – 03:29:57.932] And, um, now, I'm, I was… [03:29:57.932 – 03:30:01.292] Even though I was a character, I was not a subhuman. [03:30:01.292 – 03:30:09.732] I was not somebody insensitive to human life, and I was not somebody who could handle that kind of, uh, of awareness of…

[03:30:09.732 – 03:30:13.592] And so I just, I just sort of, sort of just dropped out. [03:30:13.592 – 03:30:14.892] I just, just dropped out. [03:30:14.892 – 03:30:19.852] I didn't, didn't try to get out of jail, didn't want to get out of jail, didn't know what to do. [03:30:19.852 – 03:30:23.752] I was ashamed to be breathing, and all I wanted to do was just disappear. [03:30:23.752 – 03:30:33.752] And, um, even in those conditions, I had, just as a human being, I had a, a, an, a compelling [03:30:33.752 – 03:30:37.212] awareness that I needed to talk with the families.

[03:30:37.212 – 03:30:41.672] It was two young people from two different families, and I needed to talk with the families. [03:30:41.672 – 03:30:50.052] And, uh, so I, I had some folks to, uh, to make contact with both families and ask them if they would be will-willing to hear from me. [03:30:50.052 – 03:30:56.712] And both families said, what was not shocking, uh, "No, we don't want to hear from him." And that was quite understandable. [03:30:56.712 – 03:30:59.152] And, uh, so I accepted that. [03:30:59.152 – 03:31:02.612] But that didn't relieve the compelling need to do it.

[03:31:02.612 – 03:31:12.832] And so you can bet that when I got into AA, among the r- the many people who show- ultimately showed up on my list, that was t-t-to the top of the line and, [03:31:12.832 – 03:31:13.752] and glaring. [03:31:13.752 – 03:31:22.872] And, um, and I didn't even know about AA, but I knew that just as a human being, that I needed to try to do something to address the, you know, what I'd done. [03:31:22.872 – 03:31:32.432] And, um, then when I got in the program, uh, you can bet that I was somebody who avidly listened to approa- to, to what we're talking about here today.

[03:31:32.432 – 03:31:34.852] If I heard somebody talking about amends, man, I'd… [03:31:34.852 – 03:31:43.392] I listened to every nuance that they, that they even considered saying anything about, and, uh, trying to find some-something to get ahold of. [03:31:43.392 – 03:31:46.772] And so that was obviously a huge glaring thing. [03:31:46.772 – 03:31:55.212] But there's great difficulty associated with that because you, just like it says in the book, we can't find our relief at somebody else's expense. [03:31:55.212 – 03:32:03.232] You know, we can't get our, our, our, our, uh, forgiveness or whatever by imposing it on somebody else.

[03:32:03.232 – 03:32:04.152] We can't do that. [03:32:04.152 – 03:32:06.792] And that was just understandable to, to me. [03:32:06.792 – 03:32:08.852] And yet, it wouldn't go away. [03:32:08.852 – 03:32:10.132] It, it wouldn't go away. [03:32:10.132 – 03:32:10.752] There was no way. [03:32:10.752 – 03:32:13.462] That was with me 24 hours a day, every day. [03:32:13.462 – 03:32:15.572] And, um, so I was… [03:32:15.572 – 03:32:17.032] So I knew I had to do something. [03:32:17.032 – 03:32:24.472] And I'll tell you, when I, when I've got to this point in the, in the, in the, in the steps, that was… [03:32:24.472 – 03:32:27.232] I wanted to do it even before I started steps.

[03:32:27.232 – 03:32:36.232] And then when I got to the amends steps and tried to discuss it with some people that, um, I started to get some understanding, some inkling about stuff I could do. [03:32:36.232 – 03:32:40.272] One is, uh, some people scoff at the term. [03:32:40.272 – 03:32:41.572] I'm not one who does. [03:32:41.572 – 03:32:46.811] There is a very appropriate, legitimate place for indirect amends. [03:32:46.811 – 03:32:55.832] Just because somebody says they don't want to receive them doesn't mean that that's the end of the road, because there are always other options.

[03:32:55.832 – 03:33:00.172] And so I very, very quickly grabbed onto the whole notion of indirect amends. [03:33:00.172 – 03:33:05.352] Now, in dealing with something like the death of human beings, the, um… [03:33:05.352 – 03:33:06.822] Obviously, there's not much- [03:33:06.975 – 03:33:08.815] You can do, d-directly. [03:33:08.815 – 03:33:12.435] But even with the victims, there were things that I could do. [03:33:12.435 – 03:33:14.695] Like, I knew who they were. [03:33:14.695 – 03:33:15.215] I knew… [03:33:15.215 – 03:33:16.315] I'd had pictures of them. [03:33:16.315 – 03:33:17.535] I knew who the victims were. [03:33:17.535 – 03:33:18.355] I knew their ages. [03:33:18.355 – 03:33:19.235] I knew their families. [03:33:19.235 – 03:33:26.115] And so I started to pray directly with the image of those folks in my mind.

[03:33:26.115 – 03:33:28.615] Uh, and, and it would help a little bit. [03:33:28.615 – 03:33:34.135] I started to write to them, you know, just saying, expressing what I wanted to say. [03:33:34.135 – 03:33:40.195] And, um, so there were a number of things like that, that I could do directly as just an effort. [03:33:40.195 – 03:33:43.015] Feeble effort, for sure, but at least it was an effort. [03:33:43.015 – 03:33:49.715] And then I started to understand that there are many things I can do. [03:33:49.715 – 03:33:57.295] There's nothing I can do to bring back the victims, but there may be something I can do that might make a difference for somebody else.

[03:33:57.295 – 03:34:07.545] Now, I'm 52 years in the program, and I'm as active as anybody I know, and all of that is not just dedication and spiritual s- [03:34:07.545 – 03:34:08.295] s- firepower. [03:34:08.295 – 03:34:10.855] Some of that is, is indirect amends. [03:34:10.855 – 03:34:14.515] Uh, very often, you know, a lot of times I'll do stuff. [03:34:14.515 – 03:34:18.875] It's not a guilt trip, but it's just a recognition that who knows? [03:34:18.875 – 03:34:19.915] Who knows? [03:34:19.915 – 03:34:26.635] Might be able to influence somebody to, uh, to be more wary or whatever, you know, but, uh, you never know.

[03:34:26.635 – 03:34:28.215] So it's always an effort. [03:34:28.215 – 03:34:34.935] And so I, I recognize the value of, of, of indirect amends and, and started doing that early on i-in my recovery. [03:34:34.935 – 03:34:40.375] And, uh, I prayed for opportunities to do something. [03:34:40.375 – 03:34:50.395] I, I don't normally, I don't normally advocate this kind of a thing, but when it came to the eighth step, I added a word to the, uh, to [03:34:50.395 – 03:34:51.015] the eighth step. [03:34:51.015 – 03:34:53.115] Says, "We, we made a list of people whom we harm. [03:34:53.115 – 03:34:59.135] We became willing to make amends to them all." Right behind willing, I added the word opportunity.

[03:34:59.135 – 03:35:04.675] I became willing, and then I prayed for opportunity to make direct amends. [03:35:04.675 – 03:35:08.315] And, uh, I never knew if any of it would ever happen. [03:35:08.315 – 03:35:15.015] But it's amazing what happens when you turn your will and life over to this, uh, to this program and to this higher power. [03:35:15.015 – 03:35:16.775] Amazing what happens. [03:35:16.775 – 03:35:22.275] That, yeah, I was able to do a few things like I was talking about while I was still confined. [03:35:22.275 – 03:35:24.695] When I was released, I was able to do a bit more.

[03:35:24.695 – 03:35:34.835] And, uh, it's amazing to me how many times I've had, good God, untold hundreds and hundreds of times that I've had opportunities [03:35:34.835 – 03:35:39.595] to make what was clearly, uh, efforts toward, uh, things that would add up to direct amends. [03:35:39.595 – 03:35:48.615] Uh, I spoke to 5,000 young people one day, uh, of exactly the ages of the, of the two that were killed. [03:35:48.615 – 03:35:51.315] And, uh, they, uh… [03:35:51.315 – 03:35:58.135] it was two groups of 2,500, and I talked with them exactly about the kind of stuff that, that we're talking about here.

[03:35:58.135 – 03:36:00.085] Tremendous opportunity. [03:36:00.085 – 03:36:02.335] Made a movie, uh, one time. [03:36:02.335 – 03:36:04.955] And it wasn't a movie, it was a public television. [03:36:04.955 – 03:36:09.255] Did an interview on, on, uh, on, on public television about, uh… [03:36:09.255 – 03:36:11.355] I did it with complete anonymity. [03:36:11.355 – 03:36:13.415] They assured me that it was complete anonymity. [03:36:13.415 – 03:36:20.455] They, uh, used that, I call it Rubik's Cube thing, you know, where they got that thing they put in front of people to block. [03:36:20.455 – 03:36:22.535] They said it's impossible to identify folk. [03:36:22.535 – 03:36:25.195] Uh, they didn't know alcoholics.

[03:36:25.195 – 03:36:34.705] I- But I, I, I got a call one day from a woman in North Dakota, and she said, uh, said, "Tom, did you make a movie?" And I said- … [03:36:34.705 – 03:36:34.985] "What? [03:36:34.985 – 03:36:36.035] What are you talking about? [03:36:36.035 – 03:36:39.455] No, I haven't made any movie, for God's sake." And, uh, she… [03:36:39.455 – 03:36:49.555] a-and then she said, she said, "I saw this thing on public tele- and then it reminded me." And I said, "Yes, I did." And, uh, she said, "I thought that was you." I said, "How on

[03:36:49.555 – 03:36:50.295] earth did you know? [03:36:50.295 – 03:37:00.315] It's supposed to be totally disguised voice and no features identifiable." She said, "I recognized your nose." And I said, "Surely to [03:37:00.315 – 03:37:01.825] God it's not that bad." She said… [03:37:01.825 – 03:37:06.315] Well, but anyway, it was just one of those things, you know, that… [03:37:06.315 – 03:37:08.355] But it was, you know, just things like that, you know. [03:37:08.355 – 03:37:10.875] And they, uh, tried to give me money for doing a film. [03:37:10.875 – 03:37:13.555] I said, "No, you know, give it to somebody." And so they did.

[03:37:13.555 – 03:37:16.975] But just, uh, enormous opportunities to do stuff like that. [03:37:16.975 – 03:37:18.815] You'd be amazed… [03:37:18.815 – 03:37:19.974] Well, well, maybe not. [03:37:19.974 – 03:37:30.195] You'd be amazed how many people I run into at conferences and different places around the world where somebody has had this kind of experience [03:37:30.195 – 03:37:39.735] and, quote, "got away with it." And I'll guarantee you, they are without exception the most tortured people I have ever met. [03:37:39.735 – 03:37:48.295] Whether it can be helpful to a situation like that, I don't know, but at least can try.

[03:37:48.295 – 03:37:53.775] At least be open with an understanding heart and try. [03:37:53.775 – 03:38:01.975] You know, I, I, I know s- s- I've had people ask me about severity of a sentence or something like that or what. [03:38:01.975 – 03:38:08.795] I've, I've, I've said many, many times, and I believe it, that the toughest penalty, toughest sentence I could have been given… [03:38:08.795 – 03:38:10.775] I was given a max of 15 years. [03:38:10.775 – 03:38:17.985] But I, uh, the toughest sentence I could have been given would, would have been had the judge just said, "Go live with yourself." Mm-hmm.

[03:38:17.985 – 03:38:22.055] Couldn't, couldn't have got any tougher. [03:38:22.055 – 03:38:26.455] So but it– the point is that there's enormous ways to do that. [03:38:26.455 – 03:38:30.455] And just because the door seems blocked, may not be. [03:38:30.455 – 03:38:33.475] Because you lock it in one place, it may o-open in another. [03:38:33.475 – 03:38:35.215] So I think there are always opportunities. [03:38:35.215 – 03:38:39.955] I don't have a single amend that I haven't been able to directly address. [03:38:39.955 – 03:38:45.335] You know, some like this, indirect, but I've been able to, to address every amend that showed up on my list.

[03:38:45.335 – 03:38:48.115] And, um, and that was a formidable list. [03:38:48.115 – 03:38:51.935] And so it, that one was a… [03:38:51.935 – 03:38:53.775] Tell you one, one other thing about that. [03:38:53.775 – 03:38:55.135] It's amazing what happened. [03:38:55.135 – 03:38:56.855] You know, I mentioned I added… [03:38:56.855 – 03:38:59.795] I w- I want to dwell on this one a little bit because it, it is a… [03:38:59.795 – 03:39:09.975] It's a, it's an example, I think, of the f- of the power of the amends process and the power that God has to give us opportunities to do stuff if that's what we're trying to do.

[03:39:09.975 – 03:39:20.145] And, uh, when, when, uh, I mentioned I put the word opportunity in the step- When I, when I got on the street, I [03:39:20.145 – 03:39:27.085] was, I was, I was gung ho AA up to my ears, wide open, absolutely f- uh, blasting full speed ahead. [03:39:27.085 – 03:39:29.185] Got a phone call one day. [03:39:29.185 – 03:39:31.025] Strange how it works, eh? [03:39:31.025 – 03:39:32.645] Pray for opportunity. [03:39:32.645 – 03:39:33.465] You better get ready. [03:39:33.465 – 03:39:37.285] Y'all, I was, uh, uh, banging away. [03:39:37.285 – 03:39:41.115] Got a phone call, and it was an, an attorney from the state of Michigan.

[03:39:41.115 – 03:39:41.945] Introduced himself. [03:39:41.945 – 03:39:42.504] I didn't know him. [03:39:42.504 – 03:39:52.605] And he said, uh, said, "I'm representing the families that were affected by the, the, the crime you were involved [03:39:52.605 – 03:40:03.365] in in Michigan, that you were convicted of." And, uh, he said, "They have, uh, they have entered a suit, a lawsuit alleging [03:40:03.365 – 03:40:13.405] that what happened was, was not really your fault, that, uh, the young folks had jumped back to avoid another vehicle, jumped into mine." Well, you can imagine what that would

[03:40:13.405 – 03:40:13.565] be. [03:40:13.565 – 03:40:15.845] I mean, my God, my mind just jumped at that. [03:40:15.845 – 03:40:19.465] You know, that, you know, what a wonderful thing to hear. [03:40:19.465 – 03:40:25.165] That lasted about s- three or four seconds, and then I very quickly realized that didn't change anything. [03:40:25.165 – 03:40:27.905] That mitigated absolutely nothing, changed nothing. [03:40:27.905 – 03:40:32.265] And because I'm the guy that's blind drunk, blacked out, driving a vehicle. [03:40:32.265 – 03:40:34.625] It might as well have been firing a weapon down the street. [03:40:34.625 – 03:40:36.785] So there was no mitigation for that. [03:40:36.785 – 03:40:47.425] And so I told him, I s- I said, "I would be happy to come up there and do anything, but I don't believe I could be of much help." And, uh,

[03:40:47.425 – 03:40:50.145] he said, "Why?" I said, "Well, I couldn't even testify at my own trial. [03:40:50.145 – 03:41:00.265] They put me on the stand, but, uh, you know, the hell of blackouts, you know, y- I couldn't testify to anything about the crime." The first time I ever heard what [03:41:00.265 – 03:41:10.265] actually occurred was when the policeman who investigated the crime testified, and what he described was he was in, at the crime scene investigating, and he said [03:41:10.265 – 03:41:15.325] he saw this guy wobbling down the street that, uh, that he identified as me.

[03:41:15.325 – 03:41:26.004] And said, "I walked up to him and asked him if there'd been an accident there," and he said, "Yeah, sure was." And, uh, and I told him that, that, uh, I thought I might have been involved in it, [03:41:26.004 – 03:41:27.925] and that was, uh, the first time I'd ever heard that. [03:41:27.925 – 03:41:32.665] And, uh, so how, how do you testify, you know? [03:41:32.665 – 03:41:34.265] And the only thing I could say, "I'm sorry. [03:41:34.265 – 03:41:35.065] I don't know. [03:41:35.065 – 03:41:39.305] I don't know." And so I told him, I said, "That was what happened before, and it hadn't changed.

[03:41:39.305 – 03:41:49.485] I, I, I have absolutely no knowledge." And he says, "Well, the families think it would help." And I said, "Well," I said, "Well, I'll be there." [03:41:49.485 – 03:41:53.085] And, uh, I would, I'd have walked if I'd had to. [03:41:53.085 – 03:41:57.345] And but I, I knew it was, was not anything they had to offer. [03:41:57.345 – 03:42:06.265] In fact, I was on the way to that, to that, to do that when I had that first thing I was talking about earlier about that overwhelming obsession to drink.

[03:42:06.265 – 03:42:11.705] You know, that was in, on that flight that that happened when I f- when I flew up to Michigan. [03:42:11.705 – 03:42:13.005] So I went in. [03:42:13.005 – 03:42:15.845] When I got up there, went into the, uh, to the courtroom. [03:42:15.845 – 03:42:18.465] It was the same courtroom in which I was tried. [03:42:18.465 – 03:42:19.255] Mm. [03:42:19.255 – 03:42:19.745] Can you imagine? [03:42:19.745 – 03:42:20.665] An eerie feeling, eh? [03:42:20.665 – 03:42:21.215] Mm. [03:42:21.215 – 03:42:22.145] Of walking through there. [03:42:22.145 – 03:42:32.225] And so I sat down, and I sat down on the side of the court where the, the, the families were, and then, then I sat over

[03:42:32.225 – 03:42:32.405] there. [03:42:32.405 – 03:42:34.445] They, they, they directed where you sit. [03:42:34.445 – 03:42:38.445] So I sat over there, and, uh, now we didn't engage in any conversation or anything. [03:42:38.445 – 03:42:43.725] And, and we went through the hearing, and I testified just like I did at my own trial. [03:42:43.725 – 03:42:44.265] I'm sorry. [03:42:44.265 – 03:42:44.905] I don't know. [03:42:44.905 – 03:42:48.025] And, and, uh, and that's, that's all I could testify. [03:42:48.025 – 03:42:52.365] And I listened to it, and, uh, now I don't know, I don't know… [03:42:52.365 – 03:43:02.405] I won't ask an embarrassing question whether there's any lawyers in the crowd or not, but the, uh, if they're lawyers, you know that what happened is as

[03:43:02.405 – 03:43:04.265] illegal as two left feet. [03:43:04.265 – 03:43:05.685] It, uh… [03:43:05.685 – 03:43:08.725] We're going through the trial, and they… [03:43:08.725 – 03:43:13.885] You know how the judge does, he'll take the attorneys back to chambers to, to review law or whatever. [03:43:13.885 – 03:43:23.905] Uh, they, they called, what, a recess like that, and they took the attorneys back, and the bailiff came over, and he went to the families and, and, and invited them to go down the hall. [03:43:23.905 – 03:43:25.385] I thought it was a potty break, you know. [03:43:25.385 – 03:43:33.065] And so we go down, they go down the hall, and then the, the bailiff came back, came over to me, and offered me what I thought was the same courtesy.

[03:43:33.065 – 03:43:35.065] Now, I don't know what his plan was. [03:43:35.065 – 03:43:39.105] He never did bother to tell me, but he came and got me, and I'm going down the same hall. [03:43:39.105 – 03:43:43.785] Now, you talk about praying for opportunity. [03:43:43.785 – 03:43:46.195] Now what happened in- [03:43:46.356 – 03:43:48.356] Gotta be totally illegal. [03:43:48.356 – 03:43:57.376] My God, I was a professional in the criminal justice system for 39 years, so I understand something about legality. [03:43:57.376 – 03:43:59.096] And what happened was not legal. [03:43:59.096 – 03:44:02.236] But apparently God doesn't have the same rule book. [03:44:02.236 – 03:44:05.786] I… [03:44:05.786 – 03:44:11.716] And what happened, went down, walked down the hall, I had no earthly idea.

[03:44:11.716 – 03:44:13.296] Yeah, I thought he was gonna show me to John. [03:44:13.296 – 03:44:21.696] He said, "Go up," uh, he opens the door and beckons for me to go in, so I step in and I walk into a room. [03:44:21.696 – 03:44:26.616] Here are both families, unattended. [03:44:26.616 – 03:44:28.136] Both families. [03:44:28.136 – 03:44:32.976] And he says, "Go ahead in." That ain't right. [03:44:32.976 – 03:44:34.536] I mean, you don't do that. [03:44:34.536 – 03:44:34.916] That's… [03:44:34.916 – 03:44:38.276] But God doesn't follow the rules. [03:44:38.276 – 03:44:39.316] So I went in. [03:44:39.316 – 03:44:45.116] I was so shocked that it looked like the whole world was a flash bulb.

[03:44:45.116 – 03:44:49.376] You know, when I saw the scene, I just, the shock was just absolutely un- unbelievable. [03:44:49.376 – 03:44:56.056] And, uh, so I went on in and, uh, I remember thinking when I walked through that door, and my thought was run. [03:44:56.056 – 03:45:02.216] I, I mean, I, I was, "Get outta here." And, and, and then I, I t- I said, "Well, it looks like your prayer is answered. [03:45:02.216 – 03:45:05.816] You got your opportunity." So I had to step in. [03:45:05.816 – 03:45:15.836] Went to the first family and, uh, they, I, all I wanted to do was just to, to just to talk with them and let them know about

[03:45:15.836 – 03:45:21.996] how I felt, what I've, uh, what, what, what I was, uh, what I hoped to do with my life. [03:45:21.996 – 03:45:30.036] That's all I wanted to do was just let them know me, know how I felt, and then, d- so that I could be of any comfort to them that I could. [03:45:30.036 – 03:45:36.856] And so I stepped in and went over to the first family, and they welcomed me as if it was a family reunion. [03:45:36.856 – 03:45:39.536] They, they just said to join, come join them.

[03:45:39.536 – 03:45:44.556] So I went in and we, I talked with the whole family and, um, it's amazing to me. [03:45:44.556 – 03:45:50.996] Th- they welcomed me as warmly as I could have imagined. [03:45:50.996 – 03:45:55.676] I don't think my own family would have been any more receptive, responsive than, than they were. [03:45:55.676 – 03:45:59.896] Totally forgiving, and I wasn't even asking for forgiveness. [03:45:59.896 – 03:46:00.936] I mean, I wouldn't even think of it. [03:46:00.936 – 03:46:05.076] But they were totally forgiving, warm and, and, and loving people. [03:46:05.076 – 03:46:07.896] And I, I mean, I was overwhelmed with that.

[03:46:07.896 – 03:46:14.916] And, and the other family was over on the other side of the room, and they were a, they were an, an, an Eastern European family. [03:46:14.916 – 03:46:19.245] They were first-generation immigrants from the Eastern, Eastern European st- st- country. [03:46:19.245 – 03:46:21.676] And they, uh, they were fairly stark. [03:46:21.676 – 03:46:23.216] They were real stark people. [03:46:23.216 – 03:46:25.016] They were a patriarchal group. [03:46:25.016 – 03:46:26.936] The father was the head of the bunch. [03:46:26.936 – 03:46:36.256] They probably had caught on that I was, I was wanting to have some conversation. [03:46:36.256 – 03:46:40.836] And so I walked over towards them, and they'd seen me over with the other family.

[03:46:40.836 – 03:46:43.516] And the father stepped out of the circle. [03:46:43.516 – 03:46:44.996] You know, it was a large group of the family. [03:46:44.996 – 03:46:49.756] The father stepped out of the circle and came over and, uh, and, and wel- and, and shook hands with me. [03:46:49.756 – 03:46:54.116] And, uh, I t- I told him, I said, "May… [03:46:54.116 – 03:46:59.996] Could I speak with the family?" And he said, "No." No. [03:46:59.996 – 03:47:00.906] He, he, uh, he… [03:47:00.906 – 03:47:04.096] And he, and he went over and consulted with the family, talked with. [03:47:04.096 – 03:47:07.736] And he came back and he said, "No, talk with me." So I did.

[03:47:07.736 – 03:47:12.496] You know, I took what I what I could get a hold of, and so talked with him. [03:47:12.496 – 03:47:22.616] And, uh, and when, when we got through, he said, "We appreciate your coming, but don't bother us again." Uh, well, [03:47:22.616 – 03:47:28.976] that's obviously not what you want to hear, obviously. [03:47:28.976 – 03:47:32.115] And, uh, but it's very understandable. [03:47:32.115 – 03:47:35.756] Good God, you know, what was not understandable was what the first family did. [03:47:35.756 – 03:47:38.856] And what the second family did was very understandable. [03:47:38.856 – 03:47:43.856] But the, the fact of the business is, my heart goes out to that family.

[03:47:43.856 – 03:47:45.756] The other family's free. [03:47:45.756 – 03:47:47.516] They're free. [03:47:47.516 – 03:47:51.316] They've got no hate or animosity. [03:47:51.316 – 03:47:51.936] They're free. [03:47:51.936 – 03:47:55.556] And, uh, that, that other family is still locked in it. [03:47:55.556 – 03:47:57.436] And I still pray for opportunity. [03:47:57.436 – 03:48:04.056] And most of us are getting a little, little long of tooth, but, uh, who knows? [03:48:04.056 – 03:48:04.835] It may come up. [03:48:04.835 – 03:48:05.876] If it does, I'll be ready. [03:48:05.876 – 03:48:08.496] And if not, I'll still be ready. [03:48:08.496 – 03:48:13.116] So, sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. [03:48:13.116 – 03:48:17.796] But we make the amends wherever possible and not at somebody else's expense.

[03:48:17.796 – 03:48:19.856] And that's what I have to keep in mind with something like that. [03:48:19.856 – 03:48:28.616] I sponsor a guy right now who, um, the reason I, uh, reason I could feel so intensely what that family… [03:48:28.616 – 03:48:30.656] I knew it then, but I know it even more now. [03:48:30.656 – 03:48:39.536] Th- this fella had a, you know, they live out in the country, and, uh, they had a young child who was, uh, just two or three years old. [03:48:39.536 – 03:48:40.516] It was just a little shaver.

[03:48:40.516 – 03:48:47.896] And, uh, they, they lived on a country road, and the, the little boy was riding a big wheel, one of those toy things where you ride a big wheel. [03:48:47.896 – 03:48:49.636] Got out in the highway. [03:48:49.636 – 03:48:52.956] It's a very lightly traveled highway, but a car happened to be coming. [03:48:52.956 – 03:48:55.876] Went around a curve and, and hit the, the little boy. [03:48:55.876 – 03:49:01.936] Well, it was a tragic, totally unavoidable accident. [03:49:01.936 – 03:49:03.096] That's all it was. [03:49:03.096 – 03:49:05.996] I mean, certainly it's a, it's enormous loss. [03:49:05.996 – 03:49:06.756] I mean, my God.

[03:49:06.756 – 03:49:10.276] And that's been almost 20 years ago. [03:49:10.276 – 03:49:21.136] And I don't think the guy I sponsor has had a, a completely peaceful day for [03:49:21.136 – 03:49:21.976] 20 years. [03:49:21.976 – 03:49:24.556] I c- I can't get him to deal with it. [03:49:24.556 – 03:49:29.296] And, and I don't know what the deal is, but I suspect that the, the, the fella… [03:49:29.296 – 03:49:30.736] There was no crime. [03:49:30.736 – 03:49:31.776] There was no arrest. [03:49:31.776 – 03:49:33.076] There was no investigation. [03:49:33.076 – 03:49:36.496] It was just an obvious, tragic accident that happens. [03:49:36.496 – 03:49:40.136] And, um, but he, he can't forgive.

[03:49:40.136 – 03:49:41.696] He can't, he can't let up. [03:49:41.696 – 03:49:46.196] And I suspect the fella driving that car, uh, is, is not… [03:49:46.196 – 03:49:49.096] I mean, most people are not equipped for how to deal with something like that. [03:49:49.096 – 03:49:52.308] We've got a program But most people are not equipped. [03:49:52.308 – 03:50:02.908] They don't know how to go about trying to resolve this kind of a, of a, of a standoff with peop- As I've been trying my best to get him to take the initiative, and [03:50:02.908 – 03:50:12.928] to go to, to, to, to, to the guy, and set up to have a coffee with him or something, and just to sit down and share with him about what he felt and what the guy must

[03:50:12.928 – 03:50:16.368] feel, I can't get him to do it. [03:50:16.368 – 03:50:25.348] So he's living in 20 years of bondage owing to his unwillingness to open up and, and, and to, and to try to deal with it. [03:50:25.348 – 03:50:35.438] And so I, I think I, I mention that just because it's the other side of that coin, but it, it's, it, it– To me, it's such an illustration of what happens when we lock down with [03:50:35.438 – 03:50:39.807] this stuff, and what it does, it just eats us alive, no matter which side of the coin we're on.

[03:50:39.807 – 03:50:50.348] So the amends process, we, we, we just about out of time, but the, uh, amends process to me is powerfully imp-im-important. [03:50:50.348 – 03:50:57.568] I think it's the place where, just like we were talking about this thing of, you know, how, how do you get these defects of character removed? [03:50:57.568 – 03:51:01.208] You gotta take the actions, you know, and those actions are what make us free. [03:51:01.208 – 03:51:06.808] And, um, and so amends are, uh, to, to me, they're the freedom steps. [03:51:06.808 – 03:51:07.238] Mm. [03:51:07.238 – 03:51:17.068] That's what I call them, the freedom steps, because it's what'll make us free, and if I don't do those things, I will drag them with me for the rest of my life.

[03:51:17.068 – 03:51:19.268] They won't go away. [03:51:19.268 – 03:51:22.528] They will drag forever if I don't take the actions. [03:51:22.528 – 03:51:31.488] So I think it's dramatically important stuff that liberates me and lets me have purpose in life and, uh, be able to function and look the world… [03:51:31.488 – 03:51:34.828] I heard– I had the pleasure of hearing, hearing Bill Wilson one time. [03:51:34.828 – 03:51:38.448] When– I've, I've heard him a lot, a lot of times. [03:51:38.448 – 03:51:47.208] He was talk– I went to my first International '65, and, and Bill was there, and, and I didn't wanna tell him anything, but I just wanted to see him.

[03:51:47.208 – 03:51:50.608] You know, I m- I wanted to see him right up close and personal and just touch him. [03:51:50.608 – 03:51:55.468] You know- Make sure he was really there, and it wasn't just some, some video character. [03:51:55.468 – 03:51:59.568] So I, uh, they had a little traditions, uh, meeting. [03:51:59.568 – 03:52:02.428] Well, you count on a fairly skinny crowd. [03:52:02.428 – 03:52:04.297] And so I went to the traditions meeting. [03:52:04.297 – 03:52:06.988] Sure enough, there were about 35, 40 people sitting in the room. [03:52:06.988 – 03:52:11.808] So I sat down and listened to Bill talk, and he was talking about anonymity really.

[03:52:11.808 – 03:52:19.028] But he got talking about this process of amends and the freedom that comes, you know, and they, and related it to anonymity somehow. [03:52:19.028 – 03:52:29.128] And what he said was that if I take these actions, and I, and I take them, uh, take these actions the way they're laid out [03:52:29.128 – 03:52:30.427] to the best of my ability… [03:52:30.427 – 03:52:35.248] I was eight years sober when I heard him make it, make that little talk. [03:52:35.248 – 03:52:45.308] Uh, he said, "There will come a day when you'll be able to walk the face of this earth and meet any person that or, or look

[03:52:45.308 – 03:52:50.948] any person that you meet in the eye comfortably." I was about up to kneecaps. [03:52:50.948 – 03:52:54.548] You know, I, I was nowhere close to eyeball stuff. [03:52:54.548 – 03:53:04.048] And, uh, and that, the freedom, you know, and he was talking about the freedom that comes, you know, from taking those actions, so that I don't have to hide. [03:53:04.048 – 03:53:07.868] I don't have to try to worry about somebody learning who I really am. [03:53:07.868 – 03:53:16.308] It's a tremendously in, uh, freeing and, and an invigorating thing that gets me set up, you know, so that I get on with the business of living.

[03:53:16.308 – 03:53:26.608] So it is, to, to me, they're vitally, vitally important steps that make me free and make me clear-minded, so that I can move on with the real business of, uh, [03:53:26.608 – 03:53:27.888] trying to be of maximum service. [03:53:27.888 – 03:53:30.368] But I can't do that as long as I'm held down. [03:53:30.368 – 03:53:31.978] We got just a few minutes. [03:53:31.978 – 03:53:36.478] If anybody's got any quick shots, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, we could do. [03:53:36.478 – 03:53:38.648] Now I got 15 minutes left, I guess. [03:53:38.648 – 03:53:41.478] Good morning. [03:53:41.478 – 03:53:42.308] I didn't tell you who it was.

[03:53:42.308 – 03:53:44.068] We're with Tom Ivester, an alcoholic. [03:53:44.068 – 03:53:44.898] An alcoholic. [03:53:44.898 – 03:53:55.028] And, uh, we, uh, with your c-kind tolerance, uh, we'll just go right through, and if you need a break, go ahead and give yourself one, and we'll kinda race to the finish line, [03:53:55.028 – 03:53:57.728] and we'll, we will quit on quitting time. [03:53:57.728 – 03:53:59.268] That's absolute certain. [03:53:59.268 – 03:54:03.688] 'Cause I got to ride with this turkey, and he'll believe me, I know that. [03:54:03.688 – 03:54:05.708] So it's good to see you again. [03:54:05.708 – 03:54:15.748] And, uh, Steve did a, a great job at, at, at basically, uh, set a real, set the bar real high for,

[03:54:15.748 – 03:54:24.308] for achieving and maintaining the spiritual life, you know, and taking it on as a, a way to stay spiritually healthy and spiritually prepared to do the work. [03:54:24.308 – 03:54:25.368] Now- [03:54:25.671 – 03:54:28.491] I wanna, I wanna take a little, little, uh, different route. [03:54:28.491 – 03:54:32.151] And, uh, you know, I'm a deeply spiritual guy. [03:54:32.151 – 03:54:36.271] Uh, but I s- I practice spirituality in combat boots. [03:54:36.271 – 03:54:41.031] You know, I'm not somebody who gets ethereal and wants to hear harp music and all this kind of stuff. [03:54:41.031 – 03:54:46.751] You know, I'm somebody who wants to be well-grounded, and wanna be into action.

[03:54:46.751 – 03:54:55.451] And, and for that reason, I guess you, you know, you s- you, you see what you wanna see, or you understand what you wanna understand in the, in the, in the step. [03:54:55.451 – 03:55:05.451] Uh, d- I mentioned in an earlier session that, uh, you know, a lot of people refer to these steps, I think, very, very inappropriately as, as, uh, maintenance steps, and [03:55:05.451 – 03:55:06.431] I think they're anything but. [03:55:06.431 – 03:55:10.591] Uh, it's always kinda, kinda int… [03:55:10.591 – 03:55:20.811] It is not intriguing, but it's, uh, significant to me that once you leave the promises, you know, you get to that, and it, and it talks about what happens if you're,

[03:55:20.811 – 03:55:25.091] if you're, if you're painstaking about this phase of our development. [03:55:25.091 – 03:55:30.271] That's the restoration thing of making amends and getting things right with the world. [03:55:30.271 – 03:55:36.391] If we're painstaking about that phase, then some remarkable things will start to happen. [03:55:36.391 – 03:55:38.451] And, and those are the promises. [03:55:38.451 – 03:55:48.471] And what's really significant to me is that the way I read the book, everything after the promises starts with me [03:55:48.471 – 03:55:50.471] but never ends with me. [03:55:50.471 – 03:55:54.411] Everything starts with me and ends with others. [03:55:54.411 – 03:55:59.271] And I think what it lays out is that, that it's, it's like we were saying a little earlier.

[03:55:59.271 – 03:56:05.231] When we're doing amends, uh, sure, we're working on ourselves and we're trying to get free and all that, but what's our real purpose? [03:56:05.231 – 03:56:07.891] To be of maximum service to God and those around us. [03:56:07.891 – 03:56:18.311] And so, you know, I see these steps as, as, uh, as tremendous action steps that spell out, um, you know, how we can put this spiritual [03:56:18.311 – 03:56:21.351] thing into action in, in very, very, uh… [03:56:21.351 – 03:56:27.591] I, I'll just refer to a couple of, two or three things in, in here, and then share some experience with you about that.

[03:56:27.591 – 03:56:30.431] Let, let me tell you what my, my ambition is. [03:56:30.431 – 03:56:32.291] Now, I'm not trying to put anything on you. [03:56:32.291 – 03:56:38.831] But a lot of times you go to a workshop and you leave and you say, "Man, that was nice. [03:56:38.831 – 03:56:40.091] You know, that, that feels good. [03:56:40.091 – 03:56:40.791] You know, I've, I've… [03:56:40.791 – 03:56:42.091] My spirit's high," and all that. [03:56:42.091 – 03:56:44.211] And I don't want you to leave here like that. [03:56:44.211 – 03:56:46.151] You know, I wanna leave you… [03:56:46.151 – 03:56:48.991] I want you to leave here with a mission.

[03:56:48.991 – 03:56:56.311] I, I want you to leave here with a purpose, so that when you go here, you're ready to attack some wall, whatever it is. [03:56:56.311 – 03:56:59.091] And so that would be my aspiration for this group. [03:56:59.091 – 03:57:02.031] You know, I'm not here just to soothe the soothed. [03:57:02.031 – 03:57:08.151] I, I wanna, I wanna sorta agitate you a little bit to do some things beyond the comfort zone. [03:57:08.151 – 03:57:11.351] And so that would be my, my, uh, my goal with this. [03:57:11.351 – 03:57:14.211] And the, and I think these steps lead into it.

[03:57:14.211 – 03:57:15.731] The… [03:57:15.731 – 03:57:21.611] And I'm just going to talk about them as a package deal because I think they're all three of those steps, really are. [03:57:21.611 – 03:57:24.471] They're spiritually based, but they're action-oriented. [03:57:24.471 – 03:57:25.971] Everything in there is, is action. [03:57:25.971 – 03:57:33.831] And when you look at the tenth step, it sounds very much like it's, uh, it's, it's about, about inventory. [03:57:33.831 – 03:57:43.881] Well, it's pretty well established elsewhere in the program that another name for, for, uh, for alcoholism [03:57:43.881 – 03:57:46.271] would be self-centered isolation. [03:57:46.271 – 03:57:54.191] And, uh, and, and you don't get free from a self-centered condition by studying self.

[03:57:54.191 – 03:57:55.931] It just doesn't make sense. [03:57:55.931 – 03:58:02.051] You know, that you gotta get your mind off yourself and off somebody, on, on to, to others before you're gonna be rid free of that. [03:58:02.051 – 03:58:07.471] And so I think that's what the trigger for these steps are about, is how to get into action. [03:58:07.471 – 03:58:10.091] And so the inventory certainly is important. [03:58:10.091 – 03:58:20.311] But I, I like the, the, I like the spirit with which it's presented, that, um, it says we continue to take, uh, uh, the personal inventory and,

[03:58:20.311 – 03:58:22.191] and continue to set right any new mistakes. [03:58:22.191 – 03:58:32.271] And then when it, when it gives an example down, uh, to, right, right at t-toward the bottom of that page where the pro- the step 10 is, that [03:58:32.271 – 03:58:37.151] when, when these old behaviors crop up, you know, dishonesty, fear, and all this kind of stuff. [03:58:37.151 – 03:58:41.670] When they crop, crop up, and if we've harmed someone… [03:58:41.670 – 03:58:50.231] I, I really like the, the, the, the spirit that is presented, that we, we ask God if wants to remove…

[03:58:50.231 – 03:58:54.191] And then if we've hurt someone, we take immediate action. [03:58:54.191 – 03:58:55.911] We take immediate action. [03:58:55.911 – 03:58:58.551] You know, we don't study it, you know, all this kind of stuff. [03:58:58.551 – 03:59:01.611] You know, because what we get restored to is human being. [03:59:01.611 – 03:59:03.571] Nothing extraordinary. [03:59:03.571 – 03:59:04.911] We're not above life. [03:59:04.911 – 03:59:06.431] We get restored to being human being. [03:59:06.431 – 03:59:09.551] And like any human being, we're gonna goof from time to time. [03:59:09.551 – 03:59:13.011] And most of the time it's not a major disaster. [03:59:13.011 – 03:59:19.951] It's just a blunder, and don't need to go into deep therapy or anything like that to try to analyze it all.

[03:59:19.951 – 03:59:21.291] It's just human stuff. [03:59:21.291 – 03:59:24.471] And, and so most of the time it can be, "Hey, I goofed. [03:59:24.471 – 03:59:25.511] I'm sorry about that. [03:59:25.511 – 03:59:28.911] Try not to do it again." And that's usually enough. [03:59:28.911 – 03:59:32.551] Doesn't require some extensive inventory soul searching. [03:59:32.551 – 03:59:39.971] It's just a matter of, of, of functioning so that you don't build up, you know, negative kind of stuff as, you know, as you, as you go along. [03:59:39.971 – 03:59:46.671] So I like that, that way of dealing with it, with-without getting Sigmund Freud involved in it.

[03:59:46.671 – 03:59:50.571] But, but take a look, I goofed, deal with it, and move on. [03:59:50.571 – 03:59:54.711] And then what does it say to do when you move on? [03:59:54.711 – 04:00:02.371] We, we, we take care of correcting the problem, and then we immediately turn our attention to helping others. [04:00:02.371 – 04:00:04.631] So we don't dwell on that stuff. [04:00:04.631 – 04:00:11.641] We don't stay in this constant stare at your navel metamorphosis of trying to achieve bliss or something. [04:00:11.641 – 04:00:15.151] You get into the business of living is, is, is, is what it's about.

[04:00:15.151 – 04:00:22.831] And, uh, and, and I like this other thing that says when we finish these promises, the, uh… [04:00:22.831 – 04:00:24.111] This is just scattered in here. [04:00:24.111 – 04:00:25.271] Uh, you, you'll, you'll see it. [04:00:25.271 – 04:00:26.391] And then this is 10. [04:00:26.391 – 04:00:31.171] 10's a real short presentation, which I think, sort of has a message in itself. [04:00:31.171 – 04:00:37.803] That it, it, it, it, it, it, what he's saying, we've enter- w-we've now entered the world of the spirit. [04:00:37.803 – 04:00:43.723] You know, we, we, we're getting away from this kind of dog eat dog existence, moving into a spiritual way of life.

[04:00:43.723 – 04:00:45.562] We've entered the world of spirit. [04:00:45.562 – 04:00:53.823] And this line here to me has a real message in it, and it's what I'm saying to you that I, that I, I hope you'll leave here with this kind of thought in your mind. [04:00:53.823 – 04:01:03.103] That our next function after all of these wonderful things happen is to grow in understanding and effectiveness. [04:01:03.103 – 04:01:08.863] Remember what I was talking about, about, about why I started doing big book workshops with people? [04:01:08.863 – 04:01:12.023] I got sick of the revolving door.

[04:01:12.023 – 04:01:17.643] I got sick of watching people come into AA, get introduced, and disappear. [04:01:17.643 – 04:01:18.963] I got sick of that. [04:01:18.963 – 04:01:25.963] I not only got sick of it, I got terribly frustrated with my own inability to be more helpful to people. [04:01:25.963 – 04:01:27.563] So what did I do? [04:01:27.563 – 04:01:35.423] And I, I didn't have any real game plan, but I started thinking of ways that I could be more effective in working with people. [04:01:35.423 – 04:01:45.663] And as a result of it, you know, at least a, a, a fair number of people achieved some very strong sobriety as just a result

[04:01:45.663 – 04:01:50.483] of that one little simple action, and, and getting a plan that might work and did. [04:01:50.483 – 04:02:00.783] And, and so that, that, that, that whole business of getting my mind off myself and starting to focus on how I can be of maximum service [04:02:00.783 – 04:02:06.523] and how I can be effective in working with others so that people do have major impact on each other. [04:02:06.523 – 04:02:12.723] And so to me, that's the whole spirit of what this is about, is certainly we want to remain spiritually strong.

[04:02:12.723 – 04:02:18.923] But we want to remain focused on a way to get, to get the job done. [04:02:18.923 – 04:02:22.603] Let me give, let me give you a couple other examples on, on, uh… [04:02:22.603 – 04:02:24.003] That was one now. [04:02:24.003 – 04:02:30.923] And that was, that was a monumentally important thing to me of, of, of finding a way to really effectively help people get introduced to the program. [04:02:30.923 – 04:02:40.983] And, uh, I tell you, uh, you know, you know, just, just a couple other just examples of kind of, kind of things and, and maybe try to incite you to

[04:02:40.983 – 04:02:50.843] think about some stuff because you, you, you, you think about these lofty ideals, and then when you get back home, you try to think, "Well, what am I gonna do with that?" You know. [04:02:50.843 – 04:02:54.163] Well, I, I wanna give you a couple of clues on some things you might do. [04:02:54.163 – 04:02:56.643] There are enormous opportunities. [04:02:56.643 – 04:02:57.483] I, I was trying to think… [04:02:57.483 – 04:02:57.783] I don't… [04:02:57.783 – 04:02:58.952] My memory's not good enough. [04:02:58.952 – 04:03:04.043] But I did a c- I did, I did a workshop with a bunch of judges down here somewhere.

[04:03:04.043 – 04:03:10.023] There's a place that's a kind of a, a swooshy kinda conference center. [04:03:10.023 – 04:03:13.003] It seem like it's east of, of the coast. [04:03:13.003 – 04:03:14.123] Not, it's not on the coast. [04:03:14.123 – 04:03:14.832] It's right on the coast. [04:03:14.832 – 04:03:17.143] But a very, very nice place. [04:03:17.143 – 04:03:22.323] And, uh, I was, I was somewhere, and they, they, they a-asked me if I'd come in and do a workshop. [04:03:22.323 – 04:03:24.172] So I did with a bunch of… [04:03:24.172 – 04:03:30.663] Now, this is kind of turning the tables where you get a chance to just beat on a whole bunch of judges- -because they've been beating on me long enough.

[04:03:30.663 – 04:03:33.683] And so, so it was a good welcome time. [04:03:33.683 – 04:03:37.083] And now I couldn't visualize what would happen. [04:03:37.083 – 04:03:38.563] It was a Friday afternoon. [04:03:38.563 – 04:03:48.563] And I thought, "My God, there ain't gonna be no judges at a workshop with someone talking about alcoholism and AA." That, uh, on Friday afternoon, I think a judge who's [04:03:48.563 – 04:03:54.703] been listening to that junk all week long is gonna be in the fetal position somewhere whimpering or something. [04:03:54.703 – 04:04:03.683] And I thought, "God, that must be a lonely time." So I went down to wherever it was down here and, and, uh, met with those judges.

[04:04:03.683 – 04:04:05.823] And those guys were hungry. [04:04:05.823 – 04:04:07.903] They were hungry for… [04:04:07.903 – 04:04:10.003] Now, I had a couple of them fought me pretty good. [04:04:10.003 – 04:04:12.543] Uh, they lost, but they, uh, they fought. [04:04:12.543 – 04:04:13.823] They put up a good fight. [04:04:13.823 – 04:04:16.283] And, uh, we, we had a good experience. [04:04:16.283 – 04:04:24.803] And what we were talking about was more effective ways to deal with people who follow that, that, that, that march of despair through the court system. [04:04:24.803 – 04:04:28.983] And, um, it showed, you know, these are guys that are hungry.

[04:04:28.983 – 04:04:30.663] They're sitting right in your backyard. [04:04:30.663 – 04:04:35.263] And, uh, so, so, so the, the market is open. [04:04:35.263 – 04:04:44.843] There, there are tons of people that are, are highly concerned with the futility of the efforts that are being made to help alcoholics. [04:04:44.843 – 04:04:52.903] There's not a resounding sense of confidence that what we've got is a good thing that's going on, that there are some real miracle cures somewhere. [04:04:52.903 – 04:04:54.283] Not much. [04:04:54.283 – 04:04:54.943] Not much. [04:04:54.943 – 04:05:04.503] There's a lot of concern, you know, about the, the, uh, you know, the, the, the enormous amount of money, for one thing, that's being put in to trying to, to help alcoholics-

[04:05:05.346 – 04:05:06.266] With futility. [04:05:06.266 – 04:05:07.286] With futility. [04:05:07.286 – 04:05:10.866] So there are a lot of people who really, really want to do something about it. [04:05:10.866 – 04:05:17.946] You just gotta think about it a little bit, and I wanna try to give you a couple ideas to think about in that connection. [04:05:17.946 – 04:05:22.446] One other one that happened, and just how easy it can happen. [04:05:22.446 – 04:05:32.006] I, I'm the– in our group, we have– if, if there's a service in Alcoholics Anonymous, it's organized, staffed, and delivered in our group.

[04:05:32.006 – 04:05:34.226] And we're an action group. [04:05:34.226 – 04:05:34.566] You know what? [04:05:34.566 – 04:05:35.626] We– that's what we do. [04:05:35.626 – 04:05:38.026] The name of our group is Primary Purpose. [04:05:38.026 – 04:05:39.606] That's also our job description. [04:05:39.606 – 04:05:41.746] And what we do is our primary purpose. [04:05:41.746 – 04:05:45.536] And one night I was sitting there, and we, we have a corrections committee as pa-part of it. [04:05:45.536 – 04:05:47.886] I was sitting in that meeting one night, and we started to close up. [04:05:47.886 – 04:05:53.676] And I said, I said, uh, we had just a few minutes left. [04:05:53.676 – 04:06:05.406] I said, "How would you guys like to try to do something about this court slip business?" And y'all– and I did– I don't know about you, but I had been really

[04:06:05.406 – 04:06:12.506] bothered for years with this whole ritual of signing slips of paper to verify somebody was in AA. [04:06:12.506 – 04:06:19.326] And I never had really stopped and thought too much about why it bothered me so, but it bothered me a great deal. [04:06:19.326 – 04:06:23.106] Uh, enough that, uh, I wouldn't do it. [04:06:23.106 – 04:06:24.266] I wouldn't do it. [04:06:24.266 – 04:06:30.626] But I never just refused or embarrassed the person with the piece of paper. [04:06:30.626 – 04:06:32.466] Never did that. [04:06:32.466 – 04:06:37.326] But somebody would come up to me and say, "Would you sign this paper for me?" I'd say, "No.

[04:06:37.326 – 04:06:38.886] He'll take care of that. [04:06:38.886 – 04:06:43.286] You know, he's good at this kind of thing." And I'd just point to– I'd wimp out is what I'd do. [04:06:43.286 – 04:06:45.046] And I'd, I'd pass the buck. [04:06:45.046 – 04:06:48.026] I'd say, "If somebody doesn't mind, let them sign it. [04:06:48.026 – 04:06:54.846] I mind it." And, um, but I never had really thought it through about why that bothered me so much. [04:06:54.846 – 04:07:02.886] And, uh, but I knew it was a, a, a, a, a to me, just a terrible way to try to introduce somebody to Alcoholics Anonymous.

[04:07:02.886 – 04:07:12.906] And, uh, I know I was in, in, uh, uh, uh, somewhere out in the Midwest, and I happened to– I went by a, a place, and there happened to [04:07:12.906 – 04:07:14.685] be a meeting going on, so I, I went up. [04:07:14.685 – 04:07:18.106] Now, I was kinda like the psychiatrist at the burlesque show. [04:07:18.106 – 04:07:20.066] I wanted to watch what was going on. [04:07:20.066 – 04:07:23.166] Instead of the dancers, I'm watching the, the, the audience. [04:07:23.166 – 04:07:27.665] And this was kind of a, a typical, uh, setup. [04:07:27.665 – 04:07:33.306] They, uh, they had a system by which they processed these paper signing things.

[04:07:33.306 – 04:07:36.446] And it was almost like trained behavior. [04:07:36.446 – 04:07:40.646] Uh, uh, I know nobody's training, but I guess word gets around. [04:07:40.646 – 04:07:43.406] And, and so, uh, yeah, I started watching. [04:07:43.406 – 04:07:49.436] And what would happen, they'd come in, and they had a little raised dais, and the secretary had a, at a, at a, a desk up there. [04:07:49.436 – 04:07:53.966] And people would come in that had this piece of paper, and they'd come over. [04:07:53.966 – 04:07:55.386] Nobody had to tell them anything. [04:07:55.386 – 04:07:57.206] They'd go over, and they had an inbox.

[04:07:57.206 – 04:07:59.366] And they'd put it in the inbox. [04:07:59.366 – 04:08:03.505] And then during the meeting, the secretary would, would sign them. [04:08:03.505 – 04:08:05.706] And then at the end of the meeting, they'd go back. [04:08:05.706 – 04:08:09.386] Well, I picked one guy just to, to study. [04:08:09.386 – 04:08:11.386] A, a, a just random sample. [04:08:11.386 – 04:08:15.026] I picked a guy, and I watched every move he made. [04:08:15.026 – 04:08:16.726] And, and he came in. [04:08:16.726 – 04:08:17.886] It was a fifth step meeting. [04:08:17.886 – 04:08:27.066] Came in, he sat about midway in the group, and never showed any signs of engagement whatsoever.

[04:08:27.066 – 04:08:31.046] Never laughed, never smiled, never nodded. [04:08:31.046 – 04:08:33.426] He sat there just like a statue. [04:08:33.426 – 04:08:35.926] And he was not disruptive. [04:08:35.926 – 04:08:38.026] He didn't s- didn't look bored particularly. [04:08:38.026 – 04:08:40.026] He just looked totally unengaged. [04:08:40.026 – 04:08:47.066] And then when he got through, he came up, picked up his piece of paper, walked out. [04:08:47.066 – 04:08:50.246] He never interacted with one human. [04:08:50.246 – 04:08:52.026] Not one human. [04:08:52.026 – 04:08:57.806] Now, what do you suppose that guy would tell the folks on the street, that– his buddies on the street? [04:08:57.806 – 04:09:03.206] "Where you been, man?" "Oh, I've been to this warm, wonderful meeting." You suppose that's what he'd tell them?

[04:09:03.206 – 04:09:03.766] Mm-mm. [04:09:03.766 – 04:09:04.446] Yeah. [04:09:04.446 – 04:09:05.426] Not hardly. [04:09:05.426 – 04:09:06.546] Not hardly. [04:09:06.546 – 04:09:10.326] Yeah, that's a lousy introduction to Alcoholics Anonymous. [04:09:10.326 – 04:09:20.816] But it just kinda personified what it is that troubles me about that because if you contrast it to how we got started as a fellowship, and [04:09:20.816 – 04:09:23.306] think back, it's a, it's a very familiar story. [04:09:23.306 – 04:09:33.366] But, but think back to what r- Steve mentioned about, about Roland, our, our, our buddy up in, in, in, uh, in, in Rhode Island, but he was in Vermont when they, uh,

[04:09:33.366 – 04:09:35.586] when Roland got Ebby out of the court. [04:09:35.586 – 04:09:37.026] You remember that? [04:09:37.026 – 04:09:37.886] Remember that story? [04:09:37.886 – 04:09:38.556] Mm-hmm. [04:09:38.556 – 04:09:39.366] Remember what happened? [04:09:39.366 – 04:09:41.806] Roland, here's Ebby. [04:09:41.806 – 04:09:46.146] He's the town drunk, and he's in court for the umpteenth time. [04:09:46.146 – 04:09:56.166] And Roland and two other guys, uh, two other people, went to the court and said to the judge, [04:09:56.166 – 04:10:01.626] "Let us take a chance with this guy." Well, good God, the court, the judge had nothing to lose. [04:10:01.626 – 04:10:04.066] I mean, my, they want to get rid of him anyway.

[04:10:04.066 – 04:10:05.806] And they're gonna lock him up. [04:10:05.806 – 04:10:08.666] And they said, "Take him." And so they took him. [04:10:08.666 – 04:10:17.446] Well, uh, uh, you know, and, and of course, that, that, that translated into what the– st- put the wheels in motion that became Alcoholics Anonymous. [04:10:17.446 – 04:10:20.026] And so it was very significant. [04:10:20.026 – 04:10:25.466] But what happened, contrast how that was done to what's done today. [04:10:25.466 – 04:10:29.766] Contrast to how, how we deal with people in the court system today. [04:10:29.766 – 04:10:34.686] And what we do is, it's almost like we've mechanized the process.

[04:10:34.686 – 04:10:36.026] You know what I mean? [04:10:36.026 – 04:10:38.206] Uh, the human quality's gone. [04:10:38.206 – 04:10:39.966] The spiritual quality's gone. [04:10:39.966 – 04:10:43.946] And what we do is process it like putting chickens through a… [04:10:43.946 – 04:10:46.666] wherever they produce… [04:10:46.666 – 04:10:49.686] Well, I d- I don't even wanna think about that. [04:10:49.686 – 04:10:53.066] That- He'll want to eat some on the way home. [04:10:53.066 – 04:10:56.906] But that, that's about what we do. [04:10:56.906 – 04:10:59.546] It's just like a production line. [04:10:59.546 – 04:11:03.606] And you, uh, where we process these folks through, there's absolutely no human interaction. [04:11:03.606 – 04:11:06.146] It's just sort of a mechanical processing thing.

[04:11:06.146 – 04:11:08.546] And then we s- mandate folk to AA. [04:11:08.546 – 04:11:11.782] And, uh, so that bothered me. [04:11:11.782 – 04:11:19.422] I mean, it just seemed to me like a terrible way to introduce somebody to Alcoholics Anonymous because I think it's a bizarre introduction. [04:11:19.422 – 04:11:23.002] It doesn't introduce to what the spiritual connection is. [04:11:23.002 – 04:11:28.002] It doesn't produce identification like my buddy was talking about with Bob and Bill. [04:11:28.002 – 04:11:29.502] And so that… [04:11:29.502 – 04:11:33.622] And so I kne- That was troubling to me, but I'd not thought it through too much.

[04:11:33.622 – 04:11:43.742] And so I, I just brought up at the service committee, "How would you like to try to do something about that, Corbin?" Well, an old man said, uh, was old, one this, uh, next [04:11:43.742 – 04:11:49.262] to me, the oldest guy in the group said, uh, "Oh, hell, Tom, we can't do anything like with that. [04:11:49.262 – 04:11:53.662] They do it all over the country." Um, I said, "Well, let's don't fix the whole country. [04:11:53.662 – 04:12:03.302] Let's just work right here in our little old town." And, uh, he said, "Well, we can try, but it won't work." I mean, he, he is a member of the man will never fly society.

[04:12:03.302 – 04:12:08.582] He'll, he'll, he'll put gas in the plane, but he don't believe it's going anywhere. [04:12:08.582 – 04:12:13.242] And, uh, so, so we did. [04:12:13.242 – 04:12:20.862] And, uh, and, and I, and I, I hope you pick up on something like this and, and, and think about it when you drive away from here. [04:12:20.862 – 04:12:22.362] Uh, because it's very simple, Neil. [04:12:22.362 – 04:12:27.492] I didn't have any clue what we're gonna do, but I just, I knew I wanted to do something about it. [04:12:27.492 – 04:12:30.012] And so we set up…

[04:12:30.012 – 04:12:32.042] First thought was to go attack the judges. [04:12:32.042 – 04:12:34.482] You know, not beat on them, but just go meet with the judges. [04:12:34.482 – 04:12:40.762] And then realized that the folks that really put legs on that program are probation people. [04:12:40.762 – 04:12:46.862] They're the ones that have to do the hunting and trying to foolishly think they're gonna go track alcoholics or something. [04:12:46.862 – 04:12:50.102] But hey, uh, they waste an awful lot of time doing that. [04:12:50.102 – 04:12:52.222] And that's who it was. [04:12:52.222 – 04:12:58.722] So we, uh, we targeted, set up a meeting with the, the regional type of boss of, of probation.

[04:12:58.722 – 04:13:01.442] And, uh, I never had really… [04:13:01.442 – 04:13:05.002] Now, when you go meet with somebody, I think you gotta be prepared. [04:13:05.002 – 04:13:07.062] You know, you gotta, you gotta know what you're talking about. [04:13:07.062 – 04:13:09.142] You gotta have your, your, your ducks in a row. [04:13:09.142 – 04:13:11.482] So I was flying somewhere. [04:13:11.482 – 04:13:14.762] I'd, I never had an- really analyzed that thing of why I felt like I did. [04:13:14.762 – 04:13:18.882] And I was flying somewhere, and that's where I do my best thinking, you know, up close to God.

[04:13:18.882 – 04:13:21.411] And I just get brilliant up there, you know. [04:13:21.411 – 04:13:25.552] So sometimes I can't read it when I get back down, but- … [04:13:25.552 – 04:13:26.802] but it's a good place to write. [04:13:26.802 – 04:13:30.482] So I wrote down advantages and disadvantages. [04:13:30.482 – 04:13:32.282] You know, the old stuff you've done a thousand times. [04:13:32.282 – 04:13:35.502] You know, why would somebody think that's a good idea? [04:13:35.502 – 04:13:45.542] And w- as open-mindedly as I could, I put down, I thought of 10 things that somebody might think were positive values to [04:13:45.542 – 04:13:45.842] that.

[04:13:45.842 – 04:13:50.642] All 10 of them were valuable to the probation supervisor. [04:13:50.642 – 04:13:57.802] None were clearly valuable to the client or captive or whatever you wanna call it. [04:13:57.802 – 04:14:00.042] Yet none of them, uh, clearly. [04:14:00.042 – 04:14:05.902] I put question marks by thr- by three of them just to demonstrate my fairness. [04:14:05.902 – 04:14:07.162] Uh, it is what it was about. [04:14:07.162 – 04:14:13.622] I didn't really believe it, but maybe during a lunar eclipse, it might have some value, you know, so. [04:14:13.622 – 04:14:15.462] But I didn't really believe it. [04:14:15.462 – 04:14:17.862] I, but I, I did it anyway to be nice.

[04:14:17.862 – 04:14:24.622] And, uh, then on the other side, I think I quit at 25, when I wrote disadvantages. [04:14:24.622 – 04:14:30.322] Twenty-five, at least that, and that's what we wound up, uh, presenting. [04:14:30.322 – 04:14:33.152] And, uh, they, they were… [04:14:33.152 – 04:14:40.562] They're typical things, you know, that, you know, when somebody walks in, talk about an introduction, it's, it's a, it's a terrible introduction of AA. [04:14:40.562 – 04:14:43.502] It's like the guy's got a brand on his forehead. [04:14:43.502 – 04:14:47.552] He has to come in and get somebody to, to try to…

[04:14:47.552 – 04:14:49.622] You know, about half the time I've watched people sign them. [04:14:49.622 – 04:14:51.262] They sign them, don't even look at the guy. [04:14:51.262 – 04:14:54.322] "Yeah, I'll do that." You know, sign it just like, you know, be out. [04:14:54.322 – 04:15:00.402] Well, I mean, just, just, just thinking of that, of, of what a distorted introduction to that is. [04:15:00.402 – 04:15:02.302] It's an aberration of AA is what it is. [04:15:02.302 – 04:15:10.482] And, um, and about a half a dozen down, I wrote something that explained to me why I wouldn't sign paper.

[04:15:10.482 – 04:15:15.882] That if I sign that paper, two things happen. [04:15:15.882 – 04:15:23.292] One, I become something to that alcoholic other than what I want to be to that alco- alcoholic. [04:15:23.292 – 04:15:28.662] I don't wanna be an en- an enabler, an, a validator, a checker, an approver. [04:15:28.662 – 04:15:30.022] That's not what I am. [04:15:30.022 – 04:15:32.242] I'm another alcoholic. [04:15:32.242 – 04:15:35.022] That's all I wanna be. [04:15:35.022 – 04:15:39.522] But the minute I start taking on that task, I change my function. [04:15:39.522 – 04:15:44.212] I also become an affiliate of the probation- [04:15:44.427 – 04:15:44.907] department. [04:15:44.907 – 04:15:50.487] I also become affiliated with, with the probation department.

[04:15:50.487 – 04:15:54.837] And I don't, I mean, they're nice people, good friends, but I'm not one of them. [04:15:54.837 – 04:15:57.767] I don't wanna be an authority figure. [04:15:57.767 – 04:16:03.947] And so, I, I wrote that, and that kinda surprised me, but it clarified why I wouldn't do it. [04:16:03.947 – 04:16:07.787] And, um, so anyway, yeah, uh, just a whole range of them. [04:16:07.787 – 04:16:17.807] And so we went in to, to meet with the probation guy, and, uh, nice man, but he was a typical kind of a agency [04:16:17.807 – 04:16:18.227] person.

[04:16:18.227 – 04:16:22.447] When citizens come to see him, it's rarely to give a commendation. [04:16:22.447 – 04:16:25.687] They, it's normally always they're mad about something. [04:16:25.687 – 04:16:32.727] And so he was in his defensive posture behind a big desk, and, uh, so we went in and started to go at it. [04:16:32.727 – 04:16:34.667] We, this was handwritten stuff. [04:16:34.667 – 04:16:36.187] I'd, I'd written it on an airplane. [04:16:36.187 – 04:16:42.507] My wife rewrote it in handwritten and, uh, so it could be r- somewhat l- readable. [04:16:42.507 – 04:16:45.447] And so gave him a copy of it.

[04:16:45.447 – 04:16:55.477] And he, he was in that sort of squared off, ready to defend himself position, and he got to the one I just cited about why I didn't [04:16:55.477 – 04:16:56.047] sign the paper. [04:16:56.047 – 04:17:06.247] He read that and he said, "Well, I'll be damned, I never thought of that." I said, "Me either." But there I was, right up next to God, and He told me to tell [04:17:06.247 – 04:17:08.787] you that this is what this does. [04:17:08.787 – 04:17:11.887] And so, well, from then on, we were on the same team.

[04:17:11.887 – 04:17:13.847] And then we wound up… [04:17:13.847 – 04:17:14.317] Now, you, you… [04:17:14.317 – 04:17:19.827] My, my belief is that if you're gonna criticize, you gotta have something better to offer. [04:17:19.827 – 04:17:25.407] I never go to an agency person and ask them what they think we ought to do. [04:17:25.407 – 04:17:26.487] I, I don't want… [04:17:26.487 – 04:17:30.687] Yeah, I wouldn't be visiting with them if I liked what they thought we ought to do. [04:17:30.687 – 04:17:34.067] Yeah, I'm visiting because I don't like what, what… [04:17:34.067 – 04:17:35.287] I wanted something different. [04:17:35.287 – 04:17:45.347] And so he, he said, uh, when we got through, he said, "What do you think we ought to do?" Now, we'd thought ahead a little bit, and we made,

[04:17:45.347 – 04:17:47.947] uh, had four or five suggestions, something like that. [04:17:47.947 – 04:17:50.507] And, uh, they… [04:17:50.507 – 04:17:52.766] I don't even remember what they all were, but they, uh… [04:17:52.766 – 04:17:58.467] One of them, the one they settled on, was put the responsibility on the guy. [04:17:58.467 – 04:18:08.727] You know, instead of the probation officer making a fool of himself trying to chase alcoholics and trying to get s- squiggly little writing stuff to validate something to, [04:18:08.727 – 04:18:09.247] whatever. [04:18:09.247 – 04:18:11.467] To put it the weight on the guy. [04:18:11.467 – 04:18:13.947] And, and it's his problem.

[04:18:13.947 – 04:18:16.987] Let him own the solution. [04:18:16.987 – 04:18:20.347] And so to say to the guy, "You got a problem with this thing, man. [04:18:20.347 – 04:18:21.667] You're gonna have to do something about it. [04:18:21.667 – 04:18:27.807] You tell us what you're gonna do." Then let the guy present his plan to you instead of you presenting it to him. [04:18:27.807 – 04:18:37.227] And, uh, we haven't done any research on this, but that's coming up on 13 years ago, and we haven't seen a piece of paper since. [04:18:37.227 – 04:18:38.906] Not one. [04:18:38.906 – 04:18:42.847] People ask me if we still get people from probation.

[04:18:42.847 – 04:18:50.927] I can't tell you how grateful I am to be able to honestly say, "I don't know." I don't know. [04:18:50.927 – 04:18:55.887] It's none of my business who comes in this door and what their resume looks like. [04:18:55.887 – 04:18:56.817] Amen. [04:18:56.817 – 04:19:03.107] My job is to welcome, and if they're in the right place, help them find what we've, what, what, what we found. [04:19:03.107 – 04:19:13.427] And so a simple thing, you know, just a simple little action like that, that, you know, I could sit back and moan and groan about that forever and nothing would change.

[04:19:13.427 – 04:19:21.447] But a simple little deal, and I think that's the spirit of what we're talking about in group, is to grow in effectiveness and understanding. [04:19:21.447 – 04:19:30.467] And, and, and so, uh, tons, tons of, of, of, of, of things like that, you know, that I think are available. [04:19:30.467 – 04:19:40.547] But it's in terms of seeing the spirit of what it is that gets us out of that sort of self-focused thing and into active [04:19:40.547 – 04:19:47.067] work with, uh, reaching alcoholics through r- not only directly with alcoholics, but reaching the people who reach alcoholics.

[04:19:47.067 – 04:19:51.427] I'll give, I'll give a couple other examples of, of that. [04:19:51.427 – 04:19:54.687] And, uh, the, uh… [04:19:54.687 – 04:20:01.186] I, I had a lot of, a lot, I, well, just like you do, I got a lot of concern about a lot of things. [04:20:01.186 – 04:20:04.327] I, I was, I was pretty concerned about the way we… [04:20:04.327 – 04:20:09.007] Yeah, every profession now has a capturing, uh, component. [04:20:09.007 – 04:20:09.967] Everybody. [04:20:09.967 – 04:20:14.367] Police departments, uh, the ministry, s- uh, medical. [04:20:14.367 – 04:20:19.487] Ev- everybody's got a, a sort of a capturing p- uh, phase of their operation.

[04:20:19.487 – 04:20:27.047] And what they do is get somebody who's in trouble and then mandate them to get into treatment and then to do all kinds of stuff afterward and all that. [04:20:27.047 – 04:20:29.006] It's much like the courts live. [04:20:29.006 – 04:20:31.167] It's just a little bit more sophisticated. [04:20:31.167 – 04:20:35.127] And, uh, I got a little bit trouble with attorneys. [04:20:35.127 – 04:20:39.147] Not, just, just, just the system of dealing with attorneys. [04:20:39.147 – 04:20:40.767] I started getting a lot of phone calls. [04:20:40.767 – 04:20:42.167] You, you, and he has too. [04:20:42.167 – 04:20:52.167] I get, I got a lot of phone calls about want to know if I would sponsor an attorney who was, uh, going into recovery and was coming out of

[04:20:52.167 – 04:20:52.667] treatment. [04:20:52.667 – 04:21:02.687] And, and my stock answer was, "Well, you know, if, if, if the guy called me and wants me to sponsor him, I'll be glad to take a look at that." But I'm not about to answer to [04:21:02.687 – 04:21:09.987] an agency, "Yes, I will sponsor him." No, I don't work for the agency, and I'm not gonna be a part of the system. [04:21:09.987 – 04:21:11.107] And that's what I would be. [04:21:11.107 – 04:21:17.307] So it was kind of troubling, and my stock answer is always no, but if the guy will call me, I'll be glad to sponsor him.

[04:21:17.307 – 04:21:22.267] Well, I started paying attention a little bit more to that. [04:21:22.267 – 04:21:32.587] And, uh, tell you, I don't know why, but for one reason, they asked me to speak to their annual convention of, of, of drunk lawyers in North Carolina. [04:21:32.587 – 04:21:33.667] A lot of them. [04:21:33.667 – 04:21:34.367] A lot of them. [04:21:34.367 – 04:21:44.835] And, uh, so I, I went over to speak to them, and I had dinner that night with the, uh, the, the chief justice of the Supreme Court- [04:21:44.835 – 04:21:44.835] … [04:21:44.835 – 04:21:54.935] couple of other justices and some other hotshots, and so I'm sitting there having dinner with them, then I got up to speak, and I, I said, you know,

[04:21:54.995 – 04:21:58.835] normal kudos about, you know, the, the, the honor of being there and all that. [04:21:58.835 – 04:22:08.215] I said, "Really good having dinner with the Chief Justice," I knew him a little bit, and I, having dinner with him and the other honorables there. [04:22:08.215 – 04:22:18.655] And, I said, "If I'd a had dinner with him a few years ago, it would've been for my last meal." They, [04:22:18.655 – 04:22:21.815] he didn't know what I was talking about till I got into it a little bit.

[04:22:21.815 – 04:22:24.375] And, uh, he and I are good buddies to this day. [04:22:24.375 – 04:22:25.775] A-a wonderful guy. [04:22:25.775 – 04:22:34.425] But it, it was, it, uh, see all this came out of just a little bit of, of, of paying attention to something and getting a connection with these folk. [04:22:34.425 – 04:22:38.715] And so I went over, and they, they, they were aware of my concern about that. [04:22:38.715 – 04:22:39.975] They asked me to stay over. [04:22:39.975 – 04:22:42.615] It was in my hometown, thank God. [04:22:42.615 – 04:22:49.075] They asked me to stay over and sit in on some of their, their, their work sessions and to, to see what I thought about it.

[04:22:49.075 – 04:22:58.735] And what I saw was, was just a, a herd of, of, of, of troubled attorneys that were lost in, in the maze. [04:22:58.735 – 04:23:04.135] They, they were just lost in this morass of captivity and mandates and stuff. [04:23:04.135 – 04:23:11.675] You know, Steve called me about a guy one time that, that, a attorney that, that was under this kind of a mandate situation. [04:23:11.675 – 04:23:22.275] And, and what the attorney came to him about, he responded to him, was that he didn't have time to practice law because he was under so many mandates

[04:23:22.275 – 04:23:27.395] to satisfy the, the, the demands of the profession that he had no time to see a client. [04:23:27.395 – 04:23:35.055] He had to go to AA a certain number of times a week, marital counseling s- so group counseling, psychiatry. [04:23:35.055 – 04:23:42.575] That he was mandated into so many things that he couldn't even do what he was, uh, trying to get restored to. [04:23:42.575 – 04:23:44.215] Well, it's ridiculous. [04:23:44.215 – 04:23:48.655] But if you're somebody that's desperate to try and find a solution, that's what you find out.

[04:23:48.655 – 04:23:54.435] And so now the… [04:23:54.435 – 04:23:59.375] I tell you, the, we haven't, we haven't finalized anything on this yet for, for a good reason. [04:23:59.375 – 04:24:01.355] They are eager. [04:24:01.355 – 04:24:02.835] They are eager. [04:24:02.835 – 04:24:10.415] We have standing invitations to speak to any gathering they have, to any level of judges anywhere in North Carolina. [04:24:10.415 – 04:24:14.095] We, they are ready to implement day one. [04:24:14.095 – 04:24:24.315] And our problem right now is that we just simply do not have an adequate resource base reliably around our state because [04:24:24.315 – 04:24:30.835] when you offer a service, you gotta be prepared to deliver it, and if you can't deliver it, you don't wanna advertise it.

[04:24:30.835 – 04:24:36.875] And so we've got areas of our state that, unfortunately, just are simply not, don't, don't have adequate resources to do it. [04:24:36.875 – 04:24:46.055] I think what, what we're gonna wind up doing is getting two target cities, just set up a couple of pilots and do a couple of target cities, but they're eager to do something. [04:24:46.055 – 04:24:51.955] The, um, so a lot of the, the, the professionals are, are, are eager to do something. [04:24:51.955 – 04:24:55.135] I was, um, I was in a…

[04:24:55.135 – 04:25:04.595] And I wanna, I'll just sort of tease you with these things a little bit and, and then hope when you leave here you will have something other than just warm, fuzzy feelings. [04:25:04.595 – 04:25:14.555] That, um, I was, I was over, went over to detox one morning, and we, we have a standing commitment over there, and I, I just took a turn at it and went, went over. [04:25:14.555 – 04:25:17.655] And, uh, they had no patients in, in there. [04:25:17.655 – 04:25:21.185] And so I've, I'm standing there, and the, the lady that was…

[04:25:21.185 – 04:25:24.215] They call it behavioral s-s-stuff. [04:25:24.215 – 04:25:31.695] That if everybody that's a little loose or, or they're getting over drunk or whatever that, they all go under this behavioral tent. [04:25:31.695 – 04:25:41.574] And the lady that was the director of that was there and, and one of the nurses introduced me to her, and I didn't know her, and I said, "What's happened here? [04:25:41.574 – 04:25:42.995] Uh, there, there are no patients. [04:25:42.995 – 04:25:46.815] Uh, have we cured alcoholism?" And, and she, she said, "Oh, no, no. [04:25:46.815 – 04:25:51.895] So there's plenty of that." And I said, "Well, why aren't there any patients?" And she said, "Simple.

[04:25:51.895 – 04:25:52.415] It's money. [04:25:52.415 – 04:25:59.635] Money." She said, "We no longer can take patients who don't have insurance or, or funds to pay for it. [04:25:59.635 – 04:26:09.655] Can't do it." And I s- I said, uh, I said, "Well, that's too bad." I said, "Well, tell me what happens to people who try to come [04:26:09.655 – 04:26:15.235] here who don't have any money?" Now, she's the director of behavioral services. [04:26:15.235 – 04:26:18.915] And she said, w- she said, "Well, you know, I'm not really sure. [04:26:18.915 – 04:26:23.555] They come into the emergency room, and if they don't have coverage or funds-"

[04:26:24.442 – 04:26:26.822] Uh, they, they're, they just tell them that they can't come in. [04:26:26.822 – 04:26:27.782] I said, "Okay. [04:26:27.782 – 04:26:37.782] And then what happens?" And she said, "I don't know." Now, I would like to have been able to be righteously indignant about that, but [04:26:37.782 – 04:26:41.042] I'm the senior member in that entire region of our state. [04:26:41.042 – 04:26:44.722] I'm an active leader in Alcoholics Anonymous. [04:26:44.722 – 04:26:48.022] I had to say the same thing: I didn't know. [04:26:48.022 – 04:26:49.622] I didn't know. [04:26:49.622 – 04:26:51.902] And I ought to know. [04:26:51.902 – 04:27:02.092] If I'm concerned about alcoholics, if I'm concerned about carrying a message to folks, if I'm concerned about our detox program, and we got alcoholics who can't even get in the door, am

[04:27:02.092 – 04:27:03.602] I willing to just accept that? [04:27:03.602 – 04:27:09.642] And so, you know, it's ju- it's an opportunity to be of service. [04:27:09.642 – 04:27:19.722] And, and so the solution, the, the solution to that, you know, what we're trying to work on is what can we do to get that staff developed adequately that when [04:27:19.722 – 04:27:23.142] they get somebody that they have to shut the door on, that they'll know who to call. [04:27:23.142 – 04:27:24.071] Mm-hmm. [04:27:24.071 – 04:27:28.801] And not an 800 number, but a live person that will answer a phone and deal with that.

[04:27:28.801 – 04:27:38.922] So it's just a s- it's just simple way that, uh, that when we try to say we wanna be effective, I think it means a lot [04:27:38.922 – 04:27:40.662] more than just greeting somebody at the door. [04:27:40.662 – 04:27:49.882] It means an awful lot in terms of, of, of how we deal with the alcoholics who can't find this place, who can't get here, th-th who don't even know we exist. [04:27:49.882 – 04:27:52.102] And, and so the opportunity is there. [04:27:52.102 – 04:28:02.142] And, you know, one of the things that you may just think about, and, uh, if you wanna follow up on, a little bit on that challenge, when you leave here and go back to your

[04:28:02.142 – 04:28:07.882] suburb or community or, or wherever, wherever y-you are, even Myrtle Beach, you got… [04:28:07.882 – 04:28:17.962] When you go back, think of places where alcoholics hit the wall, and they hit it in a, in many, many [04:28:17.962 – 04:28:18.842] different places. [04:28:18.842 – 04:28:25.732] You know, they'll hit it in hospitals and in detoxes, and in jails and in courts, and they'll hit the wall many places. [04:28:25.732 – 04:28:26.922] Ministers. [04:28:26.922 – 04:28:35.731] You know, it's amazing how many alcoholics wind up with ministers, particularly those who have no money, because the guy, they can't afford to hire anybody.

[04:28:35.731 – 04:28:38.222] But they hit it in social services. [04:28:38.222 – 04:28:41.802] God knows how many places where, where alcoholics hit the wall. [04:28:41.802 – 04:28:51.942] And think about the places in your community where alcoholics hit the wall, and people who are involved in that collision [04:28:51.942 – 04:28:55.222] stand there mystified about what to do. [04:28:55.222 – 04:28:57.662] Think about that. [04:28:57.662 – 04:29:02.582] And who knows better than us about what to do? [04:29:02.582 – 04:29:09.262] But if they have to go try to chase us down, you know, the likelihood is pretty slim. [04:29:09.262 – 04:29:11.982] So it's just a simple thing, eh?

[04:29:11.982 – 04:29:16.822] Just to pick a spot where you have some feelings about, you know, some strong feelings. [04:29:16.822 – 04:29:26.822] And, and, and, and, and ta– and, and the thing I would suggest is to picture that thing or vis– or look at it, see where they hit the wall, [04:29:26.822 – 04:29:30.082] and then ask yourself, "What needs to be done? [04:29:30.082 – 04:29:34.171] What can we do with this person?" And then make that happen. [04:29:34.171 – 04:29:35.092] Yeah. [04:29:35.092 – 04:29:36.792] That's effectiveness. [04:29:36.792 – 04:29:42.942] You know, that's, that's effectively trying to carry a message and not just saying, "Y'all come." You know.

[04:29:42.942 – 04:29:46.122] So there are tons and tons of, of, of ways to do that. [04:29:46.122 – 04:29:52.342] The, uh, we also try to crack the medical profession that we, um… [04:29:52.342 – 04:29:57.102] I really think they have more trouble than anybody with… [04:29:57.102 – 04:29:58.242] Well, and it's natural. [04:29:58.242 – 04:30:08.322] I, my son's a physician and, and so he's given me a lot of the inside scoop of, of, of how inadequate the s- the preparation is in medical, the medical world [04:30:08.322 – 04:30:11.122] for people to deal with this problem, their own or anybody else's.

[04:30:11.122 – 04:30:21.282] And, um, med-medical folks, b-because of the, the criticality of the work they do, they're, they're super cautious. [04:30:21.282 – 04:30:30.722] And, um, you know, they probably got as tight a grip on, on physicians as anyb- any captured group I know. [04:30:30.722 – 04:30:37.622] And, uh, it gets to be a little, little bizarre sometimes with, uh, with how, how extreme it is. [04:30:37.622 – 04:30:41.782] Uh, I sponsored a guy. [04:30:41.782 – 04:30:43.581] He's a ni- nice guy. [04:30:43.581 – 04:30:45.182] He's, uh, Steve knows him well. [04:30:45.182 – 04:30:46.562] He's a really, really nice guy.

[04:30:46.562 – 04:30:49.662] He, he's a, he's an anesthesiologist. [04:30:49.662 – 04:30:53.042] And, uh, he was a– I know he's a great doc. [04:30:53.042 – 04:30:57.022] Uh, the only problem was I think he got himself confused with the patient an awful lot. [04:30:57.022 – 04:31:01.062] And, uh, he became a self-medicator, I guess you'd say. [04:31:01.062 – 04:31:04.322] And he got in a lot of trouble, and, and he got defrocked. [04:31:04.322 – 04:31:09.902] And when I picked him up, he was doing bedpan duty, I think, in the emergency room. [04:31:09.902 – 04:31:14.122] He, he was at the, he, he was at the bottom of the food chain and miserable.

[04:31:14.122 – 04:31:15.542] God knows he was miserable. [04:31:15.542 – 04:31:17.502] So I started working with him. [04:31:17.502 – 04:31:27.522] And, and just like anybody who's invested most of their life in trying to prepare a profession, he was just killed that he couldn't practice what he had prepared to [04:31:27.522 – 04:31:27.802] do. [04:31:27.802 – 04:31:32.322] All he wanted to talk about was how, "I'll never get restored. [04:31:32.322 – 04:31:42.002] I'll never be able to get back in this thing." And, uh, I just kind of patiently, uh, worked with, sort of patiently worked with him.

[04:31:42.002 – 04:31:48.542] And, uh, he kept petitioning the commit– you know, they got a board that decides the fate of docs. [04:31:48.542 – 04:31:51.542] And he was petitioning them on a regular basis. [04:31:51.542 – 04:32:00.282] And I said– I– one day I, I told him, I, I said, "Why don't you quit petitioning those folk and start teaching them about alcoholism? [04:32:00.282 – 04:32:02.162] Not plead your case. [04:32:02.162 – 04:32:04.902] Just try to help them understand the illness. [04:32:04.902 – 04:32:08.182] Help them understand the program." He started doing that. [04:32:08.182 – 04:32:11.252] And, um, lo and behold, it worked.

[04:32:11.252 – 04:32:20.282] And when he quit asking for it, started demonstrating his worth as a human being and as, as a physician, they put that boy back to work. [04:32:20.282 – 04:32:29.382] Today, he, he is, he, he is the senior physician in a university hospital in the cardiac, uh, in the cardiac section of that hospital. [04:32:29.382 – 04:32:31.365] Restorative profession. [04:32:31.365 – 04:32:34.826] He was, he was an, he was an interesting boy to work with. [04:32:34.826 – 04:32:38.185] The, um, he, he's one of those guys… [04:32:38.185 – 04:32:41.786] You ever see somebody that's just constantly amazed a-about anything?

[04:32:41.786 – 04:32:47.026] I mean, everything he saw was just a, an absolutely overwhelming, miraculous event. [04:32:47.026 – 04:32:55.066] And you would say, "It's, you know, it's raining outside." "Really?" He was just that way. [04:32:55.066 – 04:32:56.866] And, and he was, uh… [04:32:56.866 – 04:32:59.066] It wa- what, what… [04:32:59.066 – 04:33:00.746] We were having breakfast one day. [04:33:00.746 – 04:33:04.305] That's where we did our work, and we were having breakfast, and he, he… [04:33:04.305 – 04:33:12.195] I said, "Well, big guy, I guess you're excited about Saturday." And he said, "Why?" And I told… [04:33:12.195 – 04:33:14.176] I said, "It's your second anniversary, dummy.

[04:33:14.176 – 04:33:24.306] Why don't you think?" And he said, "Oh my God." He said, "I can't be there." And I said, "Jeez, that's too bad." I said, "Why can't you be there?" And he told me, he said, "They've [04:33:24.306 – 04:33:33.106] got a medical command performance thing, and I have got to be there, or they'll know I'm drunk." And, uh, I said, "Well, that is really too bad. [04:33:33.106 – 04:33:44.646] But it certainly tells me what the agenda will be for our next meeting." And he said, "What's that?" I said, "It's about priorities." And so

[04:33:44.646 – 04:33:45.846] he perked up a little bit. [04:33:45.846 – 04:33:46.206] He… [04:33:46.206 – 04:33:48.406] And he– I said… [04:33:48.406 – 04:33:58.646] He said, "What do you mean by that?" I said, "Well, what I mean is, when the things that come to you as a result of your recovery become more important [04:33:58.646 – 04:34:05.686] than what produced your recovery, your priorities are shot." And the old boy just turned gray. [04:34:05.686 – 04:34:07.906] You know, he just sort of turned ashen gray. [04:34:07.906 – 04:34:18.606] And, uh, he said, "I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'll be there." And I said, "Okay, fine." He, he came in that night

[04:34:18.606 – 04:34:19.606] in a tux. [04:34:19.606 – 04:34:23.116] To, to come to the AA meeting in a tux- … [04:34:23.116 – 04:34:26.326] with a zebra cummerbund and a zebra tie. [04:34:26.326 – 04:34:33.866] And, uh, I introduced him to everybody as the offspring of a penguin and a zebra. [04:34:33.866 – 04:34:35.566] And he just… [04:34:35.566 – 04:34:37.466] He… [04:34:37.466 – 04:34:39.906] We had a great time, you know. [04:34:39.906 – 04:34:42.726] And then he went on to the medical deal, you know. [04:34:42.726 – 04:34:46.186] And so that had been a w-wonderful thing. [04:34:46.186 – 04:34:47.446] And, and he was our guy. [04:34:47.446 – 04:34:50.926] And just one of the few little medical things we were able to do with that.

[04:34:50.926 – 04:34:56.386] That, um, we, we, we had to put a halt to it when he took a job in Virginia. [04:34:56.386 – 04:35:06.486] But he, on a quarterly basis, would go at, at Duke University and spend a half day teaching third-year medical students [04:35:06.486 – 04:35:09.126] about alcoholism and about AA. [04:35:09.126 – 04:35:11.286] See what I'm talking about? [04:35:11.286 – 04:35:14.526] Just simple little things that can generate… [04:35:14.526 – 04:35:23.066] And then just a little bit of creative thinking, and it's amazing how you can start to, to, to, to, to, to make progress in trying to deal with stuff.

[04:35:23.066 – 04:35:28.786] All it takes, and I think that's exactly what he's talking about, is to grow in understanding and effectiveness. [04:35:28.786 – 04:35:38.866] You know, that not, you know, that not getting hung up with the problem, but understanding what the problem is, so that we can be more effective in how we, how we're carrying the, [04:35:38.866 – 04:35:39.626] the message. [04:35:39.626 – 04:35:43.446] And that's, that's true in God knows how, how many professions. [04:35:43.446 – 04:35:46.326] That, uh, just sim- a simple little thing. [04:35:46.326 – 04:35:49.226] You know, the, uh… [04:35:49.226 – 04:36:00.626] One of the things that we've done over the years and, and, you know, this is just a general thing you may wanna give some thought to, is, um, over

[04:36:00.626 – 04:36:07.266] the years, we, we have really quit doing a lot of our aggressive outreach type of work. [04:36:07.266 – 04:36:08.466] You know, you know, the… [04:36:08.466 – 04:36:13.006] where we really go out and reach out to the community and to try to establish relationships. [04:36:13.006 – 04:36:23.186] In, uh, in 1960, I wasn't there, but in 1960, the, uh, at, at the International in Long Beach, I have photographs [04:36:23.186 – 04:36:30.406] of it, the, um, the stage was filled with non-alcoholic friends of Alcoholics Anonymous. [04:36:30.406 – 04:36:33.306] They were just– they were paying a special tribute to our outside friends.

[04:36:33.306 – 04:36:38.066] And the stage was filled with them, with names you would recognize just from our history. [04:36:38.066 – 04:36:43.016] And they were paying tribute to folks who'd been i-i-if you… [04:36:43.016 – 04:36:46.046] If we tried to do that in San Antonio, I'm not sure who we would assemble. [04:36:46.046 – 04:36:48.866] You know, most of those folk are dead. [04:36:48.866 – 04:36:52.006] And I wonder if we have replaced them. [04:36:52.006 – 04:37:02.146] You know, I wonder if we have developed the kinds of relationships with leaders in this, in this country who are advocates, supporters, who,

[04:37:02.146 – 04:37:02.886] who are cheerlea- [04:37:03.163 – 04:37:04.243] for Alcoholics Anonymous. [04:37:04.243 – 04:37:07.723] I seriously doubt it. [04:37:07.723 – 04:37:12.383] I doubt that we could– we'd have a hard try and filling the lobby much, never mind the stage. [04:37:12.383 – 04:37:22.553] The, um, you know, but we've, we've pretty much just stopped, the best I can tell, doing active work in trying to cooperate with the professional [04:37:22.553 – 04:37:22.933] community. [04:37:22.933 – 04:37:28.733] That's all I'm talking about, is how we cooperate with the pro- with the, with, with, with, with the professional community. [04:37:28.733 – 04:37:33.183] And it– all it is is just trying to figure out a way how we can f- work together.

[04:37:33.183 – 04:37:43.193] And so to me, this is, this is ten steps type stuff, you know, of how I c-can, as a member, how I can grow in understanding the [04:37:43.193 – 04:37:46.003] problems and being more effective in dealing with them. [04:37:46.003 – 04:37:51.002] And they are, they're tremendously rewarding kinds of things. [04:37:51.002 – 04:37:52.523] So that's just one element of that. [04:37:52.523 – 04:38:00.583] And the thing I, I, I talked about it a little bit yesterday, I, I go back to it again with, uh, you know, what it does personally.

[04:38:00.583 – 04:38:10.643] I, uh, of course that does, that does a lot personally too, but that I mentioned about how I do my, my, uh, morning [04:38:10.643 – 04:38:10.863] thing. [04:38:10.863 – 04:38:12.623] I did it looking out the window here today. [04:38:12.623 – 04:38:14.823] Couldn't see the ocean, but I was looking out the window anyway. [04:38:14.823 – 04:38:18.143] And, uh, it… [04:38:18.143 – 04:38:18.423] Yeah. [04:38:18.423 – 04:38:23.703] I was wondering, um, the Bridging the Gap program is nationwide. [04:38:23.703 – 04:38:33.723] Could, could something fall under that umbrella for all these other agencies so they would have a phone, phone numbers of each

[04:38:33.723 – 04:38:38.463] city, um, like Bridging the Gap does when you get out of the treatment center? [04:38:38.463 – 04:38:42.673] You know about my… [04:38:42.673 – 04:38:43.493] But that's all right. [04:38:43.493 – 04:38:44.623] I, I understand that. [04:38:44.623 – 04:38:46.163] She's asking about Bridging the Gap thing. [04:38:46.163 – 04:38:47.903] There is such a thing. [04:38:47.903 – 04:38:50.563] We, uh, the, uh… [04:38:50.563 – 04:38:52.263] I seriously doubt it. [04:38:52.263 – 04:38:56.863] Yeah, that is, that's, that'd be a pretty skeletal kind of a thing to try to do. [04:38:56.863 – 04:38:59.103] You gotta have– you gotta press the flesh. [04:38:59.103 – 04:39:03.403] You know, you, you gotta get cooperative relationships and not mail order brides, you know.

[04:39:03.403 – 04:39:04.263] Yeah. [04:39:04.263 – 04:39:07.923] I, I think you gotta get a little more close to the, to, to, to pressing the flesh. [04:39:07.923 – 04:39:12.323] The, uh, Bridge Gap is a, is a tenuous thing. [04:39:12.323 – 04:39:17.163] We tried it in North Carolina, and we, uh, we discontinued it. [04:39:17.163 – 04:39:19.323] There's nothing wrong with the concept. [04:39:19.323 – 04:39:29.683] But what we found is that we're an extremely mobile soc-society, and eighty percent of the folk who tried to write to Bridge the Gap never got a response. [04:39:29.683 – 04:39:35.223] Well, if you can't reliably deliver a service, don't advertise it.

[04:39:35.223 – 04:39:36.943] And so we just stopped. [04:39:36.943 – 04:39:44.483] And so what we do is go back to the old thing of having personal contact because it just, those system things just didn't seem to work well for us. [04:39:44.483 – 04:39:46.843] And maybe it will nationally, I don't know. [04:39:46.843 – 04:39:50.643] But we, we do have that thing, uh, trying to generate in the office now. [04:39:50.643 – 04:39:52.843] Yeah, any, anybody else by the way? [04:39:52.843 – 04:39:55.783] Uh, I'm, I'm glad you, you, you spoke up. [04:39:55.783 – 04:39:58.643] Anybody in– we've covered a little bit of stuff here.

[04:39:58.643 – 04:40:02.123] Anybody want to pursue any of that or question or comment? [04:40:02.123 – 04:40:03.403] Yeah. [04:40:03.403 – 04:40:04.383] Yeah, Paul. [04:40:04.383 – 04:40:15.543] I, I would say that, um, the reason that the Bridging the Gap doesn't work is lack of, lack [04:40:15.543 – 04:40:17.842] of an, uh, participation by the alcoholics. [04:40:17.842 – 04:40:27.903] 'Cause, I mean, the program itself is somebody is in treatment or, or coming out of prison or jail, contacts Alcoholics Anonymous, and they set them up with an AA member, and the AA [04:40:27.903 – 04:40:31.943] member greets them as they leave to introduce them as a person in flesh.

[04:40:31.943 – 04:40:33.543] The problem is nobody's willing to do it. [04:40:33.543 – 04:40:36.203] So it's not the program that's falsehood. [04:40:36.203 – 04:40:37.063] It's the alcoholics. [04:40:37.063 – 04:40:37.603] It's us. [04:40:37.603 – 04:40:39.842] We're too busy. [04:40:39.842 – 04:40:40.363] Yeah. [04:40:40.363 – 04:40:48.503] We're too busy as the result of a program and the gifts we got in our life to give back to what gave us what we have. [04:40:48.503 – 04:40:52.423] And that's nobody's responsibility but mine. [04:40:52.423 – 04:40:58.683] But as a one individual member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I can only do so much. [04:40:58.683 – 04:41:01.403] I giveth myself as much as I can.

[04:41:01.403 – 04:41:05.263] The problem is I can only give what I can give. [04:41:05.263 – 04:41:15.663] It's the, uh, it's– it's all of our responsibility as a society, I, I, as I see it, to step to trying to get somebody invol– I've got a home group [04:41:15.663 – 04:41:17.663] of probably a hundred and fifty members. [04:41:17.663 – 04:41:19.522] At our business meeting, there were three. [04:41:19.522 – 04:41:21.502] Three. [04:41:21.502 – 04:41:24.783] So we decided to cancel a meeting. [04:41:24.783 – 04:41:31.203] A-and the amazing thing was the next business meeting, there was thirty people there. [04:41:31.203 – 04:41:35.863] The problem was that the one following that, after the issue had been resolved, there was three.

[04:41:35.863 – 04:41:43.623] Well, yeah, that eighty percent failure rate had nothing to do with program. [04:41:43.623 – 04:41:45.702] It had to do with people picking up the pen and writing. [04:41:45.702 – 04:41:46.133] Common sense. [04:41:46.133 – 04:41:46.843] That's it. [04:41:46.843 – 04:41:48.433] That's what it was, isn't it? [04:41:48.433 – 04:41:48.603] All right. [04:41:48.603 – 04:41:55.903] That– and by the way, that, uh, that limping business meeting is a g-great place for understanding and effectiveness. [04:41:55.903 – 04:41:59.063] You, you've got to understand why is it that folks don't come? [04:41:59.063 – 04:42:01.623] You know, for one thing, a meeting's got to be worth coming to.

[04:42:01.623 – 04:42:05.023] See, I think sometimes you got to just sort of examine what we're doing. [04:42:05.023 – 04:42:16.443] But I, I think it's the same message of it is, is that we, uh, whatever it is that we're concerned, whether it's internal or external, if we don't think it's working well, action. [04:42:16.443 – 04:42:18.463] You know, understand what the problem is. [04:42:18.463 – 04:42:20.563] They're not just generic things, you know. [04:42:20.563 – 04:42:23.103] That they're, they're, they're, they're fixable. [04:42:23.103 – 04:42:23.663] Yeah. [04:42:23.663 – 04:42:33.963] I just, I just wanted to say, doesn't this start with sponsorship and passing the message down and encouraging the newer

[04:42:33.963 – 04:42:37.743] people to take on these responsibilities? [04:42:37.743 – 04:42:42.803] Because Paul was kind of explaining that some of us can't carry it all. [04:42:42.803 – 04:42:46.043] And if– we, we need the numbers. [04:42:46.043 – 04:42:47.463] We need the people. [04:42:47.463 – 04:42:51.603] And, and it's only coming through teaching them to do that stuff. [04:42:51.603 – 04:43:01.983] And, and I find that nowadays, people are just too busy to take the trouble to sponsor people and walk them through these steps [04:43:01.983 – 04:43:06.783] and then put them out in the community helping do all these things.

[04:43:06.783 – 04:43:08.383] They don't teach them to do that. [04:43:08.383 – 04:43:15.179] Like- Maybe I wanna say like we were in the good old days, but they weren't all good old days, believe me. [04:43:15.179 – 04:43:16.689] Yeah. [04:43:16.689 – 04:43:16.778] Yeah. [04:43:16.778 – 04:43:17.328] Right, Jill. [04:43:17.328 – 04:43:19.899] Well, I like to think that they is us. [04:43:19.899 – 04:43:21.079] They is us. [04:43:21.079 – 04:43:21.899] Well, absolutely. [04:43:21.899 – 04:43:31.939] And, you know, ev– the thing I always like to think about, I, I, I get kinda heavy sometimes on things of concern like this for good reason because it, there are lives at

[04:43:31.939 – 04:43:32.359] stake. [04:43:32.359 – 04:43:37.419] My God, you know, our whole legacy is at stake for, for how well we carry out the program as given. [04:43:37.419 – 04:43:44.979] And the, the thing I like to think about, all the things I'm concerned about happened while I was on duty. [04:43:44.979 – 04:43:46.779] I wasn't on vacation. [04:43:46.779 – 04:43:47.759] I was on duty. [04:43:47.759 – 04:43:52.379] And so I'm a part of whatever we're remiss in delivering. [04:43:52.379 – 04:43:53.189] Yeah. [04:43:53.189 – 04:43:55.419] And so that's, that's why I feel the responsibility. [04:43:55.419 – 04:43:57.379] You know, I'm not a spectator here. [04:43:57.379 – 04:43:58.819] I'm a player in this deal.

[04:43:58.819 – 04:44:02.819] And, and so it's, it's– I have to take some of the responsibility. [04:44:02.819 – 04:44:05.159] And like, you know, just like sponsorship. [04:44:05.159 – 04:44:07.059] Sponsorship doesn't start midair. [04:44:07.059 – 04:44:09.819] It grows out of good, strong groups. [04:44:09.819 – 04:44:13.379] And if you don't have good, strong groups, thumping up on sponsorship. [04:44:13.379 – 04:44:14.678] You know, if you… [04:44:14.678 – 04:44:16.418] Sponsorship can happen in isolation. [04:44:16.418 – 04:44:26.579] And but, but, but to me, the whole key is good, good, good effective groups that generate some spirit, you know, that, that, that generate and, and actively carry

[04:44:26.579 – 04:44:27.099] out stuff. [04:44:27.099 – 04:44:31.999] And just individual heroics, I mean, my God, there, there's nothing wrong with them. [04:44:31.999 – 04:44:35.638] And thank God that we've got some folks that'll step forward. [04:44:35.638 – 04:44:45.379] But that, that whole business of, you know, why I decided to sort of deal with this kind of thing a little bit this morning is, is, is, is thinking about that, that, that, that… [04:44:45.379 – 04:44:51.599] And what I'm hoping that, that you guys will do along with me is go back and challenge what we're doing.

[04:44:51.599 – 04:44:53.139] You know, challenge what we're doing. [04:44:53.139 – 04:44:59.699] If you got a group that just might as– it, it wouldn't make much difference if it didn't exist, fix the thing for God's sakes. [04:44:59.699 – 04:45:02.399] And, uh, you know, bu-build one. [04:45:02.399 – 04:45:05.179] I'll, I'll, I'll just tell you this: the, uh… [04:45:05.179 – 04:45:12.959] Now, I'm a– I feel I'm a strong, strong believer in, in well-developed, purposeful groups. [04:45:12.959 – 04:45:15.558] I'm not a chatty meeting guy. [04:45:15.558 – 04:45:18.239] You know, I, I am a, I'm a real group guy. [04:45:18.239 – 04:45:27.219] Group meaning a group of alcoholics working together to accomplish carrying the message, you know, as opposed to just sort of providing a fellowship.

[04:45:27.219 – 04:45:29.279] You know, put some action in it. [04:45:29.279 – 04:45:33.179] And I, I, I have strong feelings about that. [04:45:33.179 – 04:45:38.679] So– And, and, and I swear to God, I don't think it's just self-will. [04:45:38.679 – 04:45:42.039] Uh, you know, some people think I'm bull-headed. [04:45:42.039 – 04:45:42.918] I'm really not. [04:45:42.918 – 04:45:45.659] I'm, I'm dedicated is what it is. [04:45:45.659 – 04:45:50.819] They think it's bull-headed, but, but, uh, it's real dedication is what that comes down to. [04:45:50.819 – 04:45:52.939] At least that's my story anyway. [04:45:52.939 – 04:45:58.659] But when I, when I, uh… [04:45:58.659 – 04:46:08.659] Every time I've moved for the last at least thirty years, every time I have moved and, and, and, uh, I

[04:46:08.659 – 04:46:11.659] have ultimately wound up having to, to start a group. [04:46:11.659 – 04:46:13.159] Uh, uh, uh, 'cause if… [04:46:13.159 – 04:46:23.439] 'Cause you start looking for a group that has all three legacies in place, where you've got strong service ethic and, and, and, and unity and, and recovery. [04:46:23.439 – 04:46:28.158] Like Steve said the other day, ninety-five percent of our meetings are about recovery. [04:46:28.158 – 04:46:32.919] And, and the, and the other three, the other points of, of legacy are very, very important. [04:46:32.919 – 04:46:41.879] And so i-if that's important, y-you're gonna have a real challenge finding it 'cause I have everywhere I've gone.

[04:46:41.879 – 04:46:51.459] I went to Raleigh, you know, it's a, it's a kind of a hotbed, you know, many years ago, about forty years ago, and, and, and wound up having to start a group. [04:46:51.459 – 04:46:56.679] And everywhere I've gone, I've, I've had to start, well, ultimately wind up starting a group. [04:46:56.679 – 04:46:59.519] I don't mind doing that, you know, if I have to. [04:46:59.519 – 04:47:03.919] God knows I'd rather just come to walk in and join a team somewhere. [04:47:03.919 – 04:47:04.579] I'd rather. [04:47:04.579 – 04:47:14.639] But I'm not gonna compromise on the principles that I think are important to me personally and to my responsibilities to somebody who wants to carry the message here.

[04:47:14.639 – 04:47:20.979] And, and so I'll, I'll just, I'll tell you a real, real quick thing about, uh… [04:47:20.979 – 04:47:27.019] It's also a good opportunity to brag just a bit about my group where I belong right now. [04:47:27.019 – 04:47:37.019] The, uh, I– The last time, where I moved last time, uh, about thirty years ago, I, I, I wanted– I really had this kinda [04:47:37.019 – 04:47:42.259] notion I wanted to just kinda melt into the woodwork, you know, uh, yeah, 'cause I'd been right on the firing line-

[04:47:42.378 – 04:47:52.518] For so long and so hard, I thought, "Geez, I think I just, I just wanna melt into the woodwork and be one of the guys." And, um, and so I started trying to find a place. [04:47:52.518 – 04:47:58.228] I went to a little town where I didn't think I knew anybody much, and, uh, I went to about three meetings. [04:47:58.228 – 04:48:01.688] Now, I swear to God, I'd have been brain dead if I'd, if I'd have stayed there much more. [04:48:01.688 – 04:48:04.658] And it was just like parrots going around this…

[04:48:04.658 – 04:48:06.738] Well, I do that one. [04:48:06.738 – 04:48:10.618] Went to another one, and, and I did my best for five years. [04:48:10.618 – 04:48:15.098] I was doing it there, trying to impose my will on that group. [04:48:15.098 – 04:48:17.918] I wanted to make that a real group. [04:48:17.918 – 04:48:22.118] And, uh, and after five years, it was obvious. [04:48:22.118 – 04:48:26.498] People develop meetings or groups to fit themselves. [04:48:26.498 – 04:48:27.128] Mm-hmm. [04:48:27.128 – 04:48:31.848] And when somebody comes in from outside and goes to try to impose some change- Oh … [04:48:31.848 – 04:48:33.018] you got a fight on your hands.

[04:48:33.018 – 04:48:33.668] Mm-hmm. [04:48:33.668 – 04:48:38.278] That's the most futile activity I've ever engaged in at AA, is trying to convert a meeting into a group. [04:48:38.278 – 04:48:45.598] And so this last one, uh, when, when I started, I started two groups after I moved down there. [04:48:45.598 – 04:48:51.918] First one, there was no place that had a sense of home group, so we set up a, a, a group. [04:48:51.918 – 04:48:54.578] And that was one of the things that it featured, was home groups. [04:48:54.578 – 04:48:56.098] It was a big book. [04:48:56.098 – 04:48:56.997] It was a big book group.

[04:48:56.997 – 04:48:58.358] Group still meets to this day. [04:48:58.358 – 04:49:00.178] It's 30, it's 30-some years old now. [04:49:00.178 – 04:49:01.498] It really worked. [04:49:01.498 – 04:49:09.058] And then the one we started, uh, this one just coming up on 13 years, it grew out of that Big Book workshop. [04:49:09.058 – 04:49:14.698] You know, that, that was a s- very signal event in, in, in not only my life, but in that area. [04:49:14.698 – 04:49:17.138] And we generated some people. [04:49:17.138 – 04:49:23.718] And when you get through with something like that, like I'm hoping you guys will do here today, when you get through with something like that workshop, you're fired up.

[04:49:23.718 – 04:49:32.858] And so these folks were all coming out of that workshop, and they started coming to me and saying, "We wanna start a group." I said, "Well, great. [04:49:32.858 – 04:49:33.518] Go for it. [04:49:33.518 – 04:49:39.398] Man, you ready, uh, do it." They said, "Well, no, no, we want you to go with us." I said, "No, God, I can't go. [04:49:39.398 – 04:49:41.018] I'm the founder of the group I'm in. [04:49:41.018 – 04:49:42.778] I, you…" And I said, "I can't. [04:49:42.778 – 04:49:46.598] I'd like the captain jumping the ship." And, uh, but they were insistent.

[04:49:46.598 – 04:49:52.098] And, uh, and, and that group that had been meeting a long time, it had found its niche. [04:49:52.098 – 04:49:53.998] And it was, it was doing well, and still is. [04:49:53.998 – 04:49:56.678] And I knew it wouldn't be traumatic if I left. [04:49:56.678 – 04:49:59.658] And so I just sort of started a rumor- … [04:49:59.658 – 04:50:01.647] that, uh- … [04:50:01.647 – 04:50:06.738] that, uh, that I might be, uh, uh, uh, developing a group somewhere just so it get, word get around. [04:50:06.738 – 04:50:08.258] You don't announce it, you know, just… [04:50:08.258 – 04:50:10.618] But rumor mill will take care of it.

[04:50:10.618 – 04:50:12.818] It got, it got around real quick. [04:50:12.818 – 04:50:16.318] And, uh, so we, uh, we, we had 10 people. [04:50:16.318 – 04:50:20.058] And I, and I'll tell you this quick, but it, uh, 'cause I have to. [04:50:20.058 – 04:50:25.858] It, it, it, it, it, uh, we, we had 10 people that wanted to do a group. [04:50:25.858 – 04:50:30.758] And so we met, and, uh, we did a… [04:50:30.758 – 04:50:32.858] Now, I'm a great believer in brainstorming. [04:50:32.858 – 04:50:33.958] Yeah, I, I like… [04:50:33.958 – 04:50:36.478] My, my first thought is always my best one. [04:50:36.478 – 04:50:39.838] And then the more I consider it, the worse it gets.

[04:50:39.838 – 04:50:41.838] And so I use my first thought. [04:50:41.838 – 04:50:43.018] And so I like brainstorming. [04:50:43.018 – 04:50:44.438] That just simply… [04:50:44.438 – 04:50:45.718] You do it quick moving. [04:50:45.718 – 04:50:53.558] You know, if we're gonna brainstorm here about what the next re- re- retreat's gonna be, you know, what I do is go to that wall, get something to write on, and say, "Okay, right. [04:50:53.558 – 04:50:54.218] Let's go for it. [04:50:54.218 – 04:50:58.578] Throw out something." And you throw it out, it goes on the wall, and stays there. [04:50:58.578 – 04:51:02.178] No discussion, no debate, no explanation.

[04:51:02.178 – 04:51:03.378] You throw it out and move on. [04:51:03.378 – 04:51:09.018] And, uh, in 12 minutes, we put up 19 things. [04:51:09.018 – 04:51:12.478] Question was: What would you insist on having in a group? [04:51:12.478 – 04:51:20.238] In 12 minutes we had came up with 19 things that, uh, uh, we… [04:51:20.238 – 04:51:22.298] Uh, ultimately we started calling them goals. [04:51:22.298 – 04:51:24.378] And that, that's what they, they became for our group. [04:51:24.378 – 04:51:26.117] And, and, uh, I added a… [04:51:26.117 – 04:51:32.018] arbitrarily added a, a, a 20th one to make a round number of, of rule 62.

[04:51:32.018 – 04:51:34.078] Uh, don't take yourself too seriously. [04:51:34.078 – 04:51:35.318] And we've… [04:51:35.318 – 04:51:36.038] And so we formed. [04:51:36.038 – 04:51:38.358] Now, this was a group of people looking for action. [04:51:38.358 – 04:51:44.418] And so what we had done in that thing was we sh- we showed what people wanted to do. [04:51:44.418 – 04:51:47.538] Well, my God, forming a group was routine. [04:51:47.538 – 04:51:50.178] I mean, it was just a matter of, so how do you deliver this? [04:51:50.178 – 04:51:55.998] And so the, the very simple thing to just structure the group to deliver what we're looking for.

[04:51:55.998 – 04:51:58.578] And, uh, if any… [04:51:58.578 – 04:52:02.058] I, I might have a copy of the goals. [04:52:02.058 – 04:52:03.918] If I do, I'll leave them with Mary Kay, and she'll… [04:52:03.918 – 04:52:05.478] A very wealthy woman. [04:52:05.478 – 04:52:10.488] And, uh, she'll be glad to send copies to anybody in the world if you wanna take a look at them. [04:52:10.488 – 04:52:13.318] But, but, but you gotta have ownership. [04:52:13.318 – 04:52:19.518] Now, and we got through, and it was just stuff you would expect, you know, that people give a warm welcome, a good solid introduction to AA.

[04:52:19.518 – 04:52:21.778] We wanted diversity in speaker. [04:52:21.778 – 04:52:25.418] We, we didn't want everybody to be an old good-looking guy like me. [04:52:25.418 – 04:52:27.998] Wanted ugly people like Mitchell, too. [04:52:27.998 – 04:52:29.398] And, uh, so… [04:52:29.398 – 04:52:32.578] And female and m- males, different colors. [04:52:32.578 – 04:52:37.538] Uh, uh, uh, s- uh, uh, bi- sexual things. [04:52:37.538 – 04:52:37.878] We… [04:52:37.878 – 04:52:38.338] Whatever. [04:52:38.338 – 04:52:39.398] We wanted, wanted everything. [04:52:39.398 – 04:52:42.898] So it, we, we wanted speakers that looked like America. [04:52:42.898 – 04:52:45.118] And, uh, but anyway, went on. [04:52:45.118 – 04:52:46.578] And the big thing was action. [04:52:46.578 – 04:52:48.018] We were looking for action. [04:52:48.018 – 04:52:57.418] And so we set up every service that's delivered in Alcoholics Anonymous, we have set up in our group and staffed, and it's delivered in our group.

[04:52:57.418 – 04:52:58.898] And so we set that up. [04:52:58.898 – 04:53:01.718] So we were a strong, active group before we ever met. [04:53:01.718 – 04:53:05.678] And, uh, so that's how we put it together, just very quickly. [04:53:05.678 – 04:53:12.218] And, uh, got a meeting place, went at it, and, uh, and, and so it's coming up on 13 years. [04:53:12.218 – 04:53:18.138] And it's good, strong thing where people can actively get involved in Alcoholics Anonymous. [04:53:18.138 – 04:53:26.758] And, and so I don't know what got me going on that, but just, just, just the, the whole bit is, oh, about dealing with a group.

[04:53:26.758 – 04:53:27.838] Extremely important. [04:53:27.838 – 04:53:29.038] I think the home group… [04:53:29.038 – 04:53:36.178] We got a little, little, little paperback that, that says home group is the heartbeat of AA, and I fully believe that, just like sponsorship. [04:53:36.178 – 04:53:46.278] That sponsorship, if it doesn't have a foundation in a group that ma- legitimizes it, I don't care how brilliant I am, if I don't have a place to take people [04:53:46.278 – 04:53:49.618] that delivers what I promise, what I'm doing is false advertising. [04:53:49.618 – 04:53:53.878] And me just being a brilliant, uh, sponsor is not enough.

[04:53:53.878 – 04:53:55.098] It's not enough. [04:53:55.098 – 04:53:57.058] This is not this tutoring program. [04:53:57.058 – 04:53:58.918] This is about finding a way of life. [04:53:58.918 – 04:54:02.658] So that group has gotta deliver on what, what, what I'm trying to do. [04:54:02.658 – 04:54:08.237] And so, you know, the stuff we did, and we weren't any, any remarkable members. [04:54:08.237 – 04:54:15.758] We were just a bunch of people who wanted to find some action and find what– uh, uh, do a, a– make a real contribution to AA, and that's what we did. [04:54:15.758 – 04:54:17.298] We just set up a group to do that.

[04:54:17.298 – 04:54:21.198] And, uh, if you're ever up that way, Monday and Thursday night, seven o'clock. [04:54:21.198 – 04:54:23.958] We put it at 7:00 'cause we got some old people in there. [04:54:23.958 – 04:54:27.938] And, but it's a very popular time, too, by the way. [04:54:27.938 – 04:54:33.078] And so, and, uh, that's a good– that's a good effort that can be made. [04:54:33.078 – 04:54:36.498] I was– I was kinda responding to what Jill was saying about sponsorship. [04:54:36.498 – 04:54:40.778] That, uh, that certainly sponsorship is, is, is a powerful, powerful thing. [04:54:40.778 – 04:54:50.898] But if– but our fundamental thing is to have a program that provides the, something that's not just dazzling personality or strong character.

[04:54:50.898 – 04:54:54.218] It, it is about being able to find our own way of life. [04:54:54.218 – 04:55:03.078] I think Steve said it well, but what he looks for in a sponsor is just help– that should help him achieve his maximum, not to be a Tom I. [04:55:03.078 – 04:55:03.558] clone. [04:55:03.558 – 04:55:05.898] It's to be– to achieve his maximum. [04:55:05.898 – 04:55:08.038] And so, that's exactly what I look for. [04:55:08.038 – 04:55:09.998] So anybody else, anything? [04:55:09.998 – 04:55:12.258] We, we, we're right at the finish line. [04:55:12.258 – 04:55:15.378] Anybody? [04:55:15.378 – 04:55:16.338] Any, anything? [04:55:16.338 – 04:55:19.178] You're welcome now. [04:55:19.178 – 04:55:19.998] Nobody here but us.

[04:55:19.998 – 04:55:24.558] Members … [04:55:24.558 – 04:55:24.858] All right. [04:55:24.858 – 04:55:26.318] Well, remember the battle cry. [04:55:26.318 – 04:55:27.758] So remember the battle cry. [04:55:27.758 – 04:55:33.138] That when you leave here, I don't want you to feel, feel warm and, uh, cozy. [04:55:33.138 – 04:55:35.818] You know, I want you to feel a little bit agitated. [04:55:35.818 – 04:55:36.558] Yeah. [04:55:36.558 – 04:55:42.918] I want you to feel a little bit, uh, agitated about the fact that we've got alcoholics dying, don't even know we exist. [04:55:42.918 – 04:55:48.178] And we've got places where there's no, no, no clue about how to refer somebody to AA.

[04:55:48.178 – 04:55:51.997] The, um–I want you to leave here with that in mind. [04:55:51.997 – 04:55:55.878] And then when you get back to where you're going, just take a look around. [04:55:55.878 – 04:55:57.238] Take a look around. [04:55:57.238 – 04:56:01.978] You don't have to look long, and you will see alcoholics hitting the wall. [04:56:01.978 – 04:56:07.818] And all that calls for is to try to figure out what ought to happen there, and then make it happen. [04:56:07.818 – 04:56:12.918] And you'll be doing exactly what this ten, eleven, twelve's talking about, I believe. [04:56:12.918 – 04:56:18.558] So I've never put early in my life in, in, in, last shot.

[04:56:18.558 – 04:56:20.898] One L., you got anything to add? [04:56:20.898 – 04:56:22.498] No, it's fine. [04:56:22.498 – 04:56:24.158] You wanna say amen or anything? [04:56:24.158 – 04:56:24.848] No. [04:56:24.848 – 04:56:28.278] You got- Well, the only thing I was gonna say was- Well, see there. [04:56:28.278 – 04:56:28.798] I knew it. [04:56:28.798 – 04:56:29.678] Well. [04:56:29.678 – 04:56:32.898] What? [04:56:32.898 – 04:56:34.257] You got… [04:56:34.257 – 04:56:37.658] Tie people up on their way out the door. [04:56:37.658 – 04:56:46.858] But it just– When Jill was saying about sp– I, I had a guy one time that s- that told me that he made the same announcements for three years at a meeting to go to the bug house with him.

[04:56:46.858 – 04:56:51.438] He was trying to get some- somebody to go to a nuthouse, mental institution with him to carry a meeting. [04:56:51.438 – 04:56:56.438] And I told him that after three years, Leonard, it must sound like you're honking pots and pans. [04:56:56.438 – 04:57:00.208] You've gotta find some other way to do that, and that fits in with effectiveness. [04:57:00.208 – 04:57:08.498] So I've never had any trouble getting people to do stuff with me like that, but I think there have been other places where I haven't been of maximum effectiveness.

[04:57:08.498 – 04:57:11.698] So it's–again, it's not– we're not gonna be effective in every one thing. [04:57:11.698 – 04:57:13.558] We have to look for strategies to do that. [04:57:13.558 – 04:57:17.618] That just hit me that three years is a long time to make the same announcement. [04:57:17.618 – 04:57:18.518] No help. [04:57:18.518 – 04:57:23.298] I think they call that a no sell is, is what that sounds like. [04:57:23.298 – 04:57:33.238] That the– and the last thing I'll just close up on is that this– we're talking sort of, sort of widespread fellowship level stuff. [04:57:33.238 – 04:57:40.558] But what I've, what I was talking about, about, uh, you know, what I do in my meditation, getting preparation out by my pond that the wife bought for me.

[04:57:40.558 – 04:57:43.698] That is actually what lights my fire. [04:57:43.698 – 04:57:49.098] And that– And so everything we're talking about as a program, those are things that I do individually. [04:57:49.098 – 04:57:52.338] You know, I settle on what is it that I wanna do something about? [04:57:52.338 – 04:58:01.238] You know, what I thought about this morning, the reason I took this track is what do we need to do here to make this retreat have some value other than feel good? [04:58:01.238 – 04:58:04.778] And that's why I settled on what it is, and I wanted to talk about action.

[04:58:04.778 – 04:58:06.218] How do you put legs on this? [04:58:06.218 – 04:58:14.738] Instead of just walking out of here feeling wonderful, you know, how do you get legs on that so that it translates into carrying this message to other alcoholics? [04:58:14.738 – 04:58:17.497] So it's been just a delight to, to be with you. [04:58:17.497 – 04:58:18.918] We thank you very, very much.