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[00:00:00.220 – 00:00:04.720] You always hate to see a guy get up and start stumbling up to the, to, to the podium. [00:00:04.720 – 00:00:08.160] He didn't get here soon enough or something like… [00:00:08.160 – 00:00:09.900] Well, it's good to see you. [00:00:09.900 – 00:00:12.380] And, uh, Tom, I'm an alcoholic. [00:00:12.380 – 00:00:12.850] Let's go, Tom. [00:00:12.850 – 00:00:19.580] I lost my voice in California last week, so maybe it'll come on in on FedEx or something. [00:00:19.580 – 00:00:22.460] Uh, the, um… [00:00:22.460 – 00:00:30.400] I'm a member of the Primary Purpose group in Southern Pines, North Carolina, and, uh, my home group.

[00:00:30.400 – 00:00:31.220] That's where I belong. [00:00:31.220 – 00:00:33.040] I'm a member. [00:00:33.040 – 00:00:36.260] Uh, that, that is– That's where I take responsibility. [00:00:36.260 – 00:00:37.379] That's where I belong. [00:00:37.379 – 00:00:40.480] That's where I'm– It's a part, as much a part of me as my identity. [00:00:40.480 – 00:00:45.160] And, uh, so that's a very central thing to me and how I go about Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:00:45.160 – 00:00:50.230] I believe in committed kind of actions as opposed to just shooting a shotgun. [00:00:50.230 – 00:00:53.480] So that's basically, basically who I am. [00:00:53.480 – 00:00:58.710] My sobriety date was last Monday, February 2nd of '57.

[00:00:58.710 – 00:01:02.780] And, uh, that sounds like a long time in North Carolina. [00:01:02.780 – 00:01:05.340] In, in, in, in Florida, it sounds like a rookie. [00:01:05.340 – 00:01:06.120] I got… [00:01:06.120 – 00:01:11.040] I never seen a place that they call the old-timers up. [00:01:11.040 – 00:01:16.800] I don't know if you still do it or not, but c- well, th- yeah, the last one I was at, uh, wasn't like that. [00:01:16.800 – 00:01:23.560] But it used to be that, uh, we'd, when it, it, it assemble the old-timers on the stage, and it just filled the stage up.

[00:01:23.560 – 00:01:29.020] Everybo- I thought, my God, o- old is popular in Florida 'cause they had a bunch of it on that stage. [00:01:29.020 – 00:01:39.060] And, uh, no, it's, it's good to be back and, um, and I'm deeply grateful to have, to have had, uh, the, the experience I've had in Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:01:39.060 – 00:01:39.920] It's second to none. [00:01:39.920 – 00:01:49.820] Now, what, what I wanna do, um, my uniform will, will show you that I don't intend to make the baccalaureate sermon. [00:01:49.820 – 00:01:57.590] You know, I'm not gonna be preaching or teaching because I tell you the truth, I found very little market for either of those at AA.

[00:01:57.590 – 00:02:05.000] If, if you ever see a speaker, you probably seen it, where some speaker gets up and he's wanting to make a speech. [00:02:05.000 – 00:02:07.720] And, and it's a funny thing. [00:02:07.720 – 00:02:09.580] We tend to be very courteous people. [00:02:09.580 – 00:02:16.480] We'll sit there as if we're listening, but you can just watch the shade drop over the eyes, you know. [00:02:16.480 – 00:02:21.800] And if, if you don't do some drinking and throwing up, you can just forget about it, talking to AA folk. [00:02:21.800 – 00:02:24.960] And, and so I don't w- I don't want to get into that.

[00:02:24.960 – 00:02:30.000] Uh, I don't know if you'll leave here any smarter than you came in or not. [00:02:30.000 – 00:02:34.220] If it depends on me, now maybe not, but maybe we can get to do some stuff together. [00:02:34.220 – 00:02:44.220] We've been trying to find– Uh, uh, uh, we've been t- Jim and I and Marie were talking about how to make– I'd like to make this as, as interactive as we can because [00:02:44.220 – 00:02:45.540] I'm a, I'm a great believer. [00:02:45.540 – 00:02:52.220] I was taught th-this way, and I, and I believe it, that, you know, communication is an inexact art.

[00:02:52.220 – 00:02:56.960] And, uh, y-y-just 'cause you make a lot of noise don't mean anybody's hearing it. [00:02:56.960 – 00:03:07.049] And, uh, if what folks told me when, when anytime I was in a communication course or anything like that, is that when you make a, a, a talk with one-way communication, [00:03:07.049 – 00:03:12.120] the retention after about two weeks is around two percent. [00:03:12.120 – 00:03:16.300] Barely remember the topic, you know, much less content. [00:03:16.300 – 00:03:20.100] And if you get involved, it'll go up around forty. [00:03:20.100 – 00:03:26.940] A-and then if you get involved in putting it together and helping do it, it'll go up around eighty.

[00:03:26.940 – 00:03:30.240] And so it's not just a, a matter of style that I like. [00:03:30.240 – 00:03:32.880] You know, I, I want us to have a useful time here. [00:03:32.880 – 00:03:42.480] Uh, you guys, uh, well, all of us, we're, we're taking a weekend to devote to trying to, to, to grow spiritually in this program. [00:03:42.480 – 00:03:43.580] We wanna grow stronger. [00:03:43.580 – 00:03:48.620] And, and we wanna make our, our– I'm assuming this, but I believe it's right, otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here. [00:03:48.620 – 00:03:57.080] That we wanna get out of just the, the routine and get into a little deeper water or some different water and maybe grow in the process.

[00:03:57.080 – 00:03:59.100] So I'm, I'm hoping that's what we'll be able to do. [00:03:59.100 – 00:04:05.280] So now making it in-in-interactive is gonna be a, is gonna be a work in progress. [00:04:05.280 – 00:04:10.120] Jim told me that this thing could be like Sinatra. [00:04:10.120 – 00:04:12.660] You, you get the, you get the deal down and talk to it. [00:04:12.660 – 00:04:13.820] And I… [00:04:13.820 – 00:04:17.660] I thought you were bringing that to me. [00:04:17.660 – 00:04:18.260] Good God. [00:04:18.260 – 00:04:19.680] You got it. [00:04:19.680 – 00:04:25.050] You, you, you. [00:04:25.050 – 00:04:25.050] You. [00:04:25.050 – 00:04:26.420] I thought you were bringing that to me. [00:04:26.420 – 00:04:29.600] No, no, I'd, I'd love some water though.

[00:04:29.600 – 00:04:31.480] I really would love some water. [00:04:31.480 – 00:04:33.060] Gosh. [00:04:33.060 – 00:04:35.280] Talk about Heartbreak Hill. [00:04:35.280 – 00:04:40.680] I said, "What a guy." Man, here he's bringing us water to a thirsty, drying man. [00:04:40.680 – 00:04:44.320] Y'all train them well down here. [00:04:44.320 – 00:04:47.219] Ah, bless your heart. [00:04:47.219 – 00:04:48.400] Bless your heart. [00:04:48.400 – 00:04:50.120] That– Is this thing working? [00:04:50.120 – 00:04:50.980] Yep. [00:04:50.980 – 00:04:51.420] Is it? [00:04:51.420 – 00:04:51.720] All right. [00:04:51.720 – 00:04:52.660] Wait a minute. [00:04:52.660 – 00:04:54.120] Let me tell you something. [00:04:54.120 – 00:04:58.560] Thank you a lot. [00:04:58.560 – 00:05:05.720] G- You know, I did, I did that last week, other way around. [00:05:05.720 – 00:05:09.620] I was speaking to a group in San Francisco last Sunday.

[00:05:09.620 – 00:05:10.420] Ooh. [00:05:10.420 – 00:05:15.940] And, uh, and, uh, I said something about, something about kissing or something. [00:05:15.940 – 00:05:19.880] And I saw this guy, he, he, he– I'm not sure what he looked like. [00:05:19.880 – 00:05:23.080] Weird, w-with one word is what he looked like. [00:05:23.080 – 00:05:26.539] And I've, I'd sort of gunned him a couple times over there. [00:05:26.539 – 00:05:36.040] And he just came running up o-on the stage, and so I got squared away in, in the karate pos-position because I didn't know what he was gonna do. [00:05:36.040 – 00:05:37.600] I mean, you never know in San Francisco.

[00:05:37.600 – 00:05:40.360] We're in front of five hundred people. [00:05:40.360 – 00:05:44.200] And he comes running up on the stage and kissed me. [00:05:44.200 – 00:05:47.520] Felt good. [00:05:47.520 – 00:05:51.580] He was over here. [00:05:51.580 – 00:05:52.740] I said, "Oh, what the heck? [00:05:52.740 – 00:05:53.780] We're in San Francisco. [00:05:53.780 – 00:05:56.640] What do you expect?" And so, so there we were. [00:05:56.640 – 00:06:01.700] And, uh, so no extra charge for that now. [00:06:01.700 – 00:06:06.220] The, uh- So in doing the interactive thing, it's gonna be a bit of a challenge. [00:06:06.220 – 00:06:08.560] And, and so you know I've got two or three options.

[00:06:08.560 – 00:06:12.860] I'm hobbling, so that'll eat up a lot of time if I just try to race around to where folks wanna get. [00:06:12.860 – 00:06:18.920] If it's to come to the podium, we spend about as much time getting to the podium and back as we do sharing. [00:06:18.920 – 00:06:21.920] And, and, and so it's not a real exact science. [00:06:21.920 – 00:06:26.360] Jim's got a way to set something up in the middle, so we'll just sort of refine that as we go. [00:06:26.360 – 00:06:29.060] But I generally would like, like for it to be interactive.

[00:06:29.060 – 00:06:32.160] And, uh, just because we enhance the value. [00:06:32.160 – 00:06:35.800] I could harangue you till Sunday, but, but I don't like to do that. [00:06:35.800 – 00:06:37.920] And, and it's– I don't think it's all that effective. [00:06:37.920 – 00:06:47.320] Um, so with, with that in mind, I tell you what, you, you've got an agenda d-d- coming here just like I do. [00:06:47.320 – 00:06:53.460] You know, I know one of the things that I wanna do is, um, I want to… [00:06:53.460 – 00:07:03.500] I, I not only want to grow in my own depth of commitment to my recovery, but I wanna, I wanna s- try to understand and have

[00:07:03.500 – 00:07:09.370] impact on the untold numbers who slide through Alcoholics Anonymous untouched. [00:07:09.370 – 00:07:16.480] And it's, it's heartbreaking and dismaying when you see a killer illness that has that kind of a, of a track record. [00:07:16.480 – 00:07:20.040] And, and, and that, and that's what you see an enormous amount of. [00:07:20.040 – 00:07:30.120] You know, and I'm also concerned and, and wanna try to be helpful wherever I can in that, you know, we use– By the way, that [00:07:30.120 – 00:07:36.200] stuff that, uh, the young lady read, that, the old, the original fifth, fifth…

[00:07:36.200 – 00:07:39.480] I was at a convention one time, and they read that at every meeting. [00:07:39.480 – 00:07:42.140] Nobody ever read the current one. [00:07:42.140 – 00:07:52.300] And I, I think I was the last speaker, and I said, "Let, let me just– If I don't say anything else, let me just say, that thing we've been reading all night's fun to listen to, but thank [00:07:52.300 – 00:07:57.400] God it didn't make it through the cutting room." 'Cause if it had made it through the cutting room, it would've cut me.

[00:07:57.400 – 00:08:07.140] And, and so we found a little better way to do that than that, but it is nice to see the old history come, come, come back to tell us about what it was like or would've been like. [00:08:07.140 – 00:08:11.240] So that's a little bit of what I wanna do. [00:08:11.240 – 00:08:21.240] I, I'm, I am, I am so tired of seeing people come into Alcoholics Anonymous and even if they stay sober, have a tragic ending. [00:08:21.240 – 00:08:31.780] That, you know, it's pretty clear to me that there is a great deal more to alcoholism than drinking, and there is a great deal more to recovery

[00:08:31.780 – 00:08:32.960] than not drinking. [00:08:32.960 – 00:08:38.700] And, and, you know, and, and my belief is, is that, you know, alcoholism is far more complicated. [00:08:38.700 – 00:08:40.400] That's not something I bought at a bootlegger. [00:08:40.400 – 00:08:50.960] That's something that grew in me as, in my developmental years, that I, I, I, I grew in such a way that I developed those defects of character that drove me [00:08:50.960 – 00:08:52.640] in a weird kinda direction. [00:08:52.640 – 00:08:57.660] And if all I do is stop drinking, those things live on. [00:08:57.660 – 00:09:01.080] Not drinking doesn't cause them to wither and die.

[00:09:01.080 – 00:09:03.100] You know, they continue to drive me. [00:09:03.100 – 00:09:04.580] And that's the, um… [00:09:04.580 – 00:09:10.919] I, I brought a thing, and if I can see well enough, I'm gonna try to read it. [00:09:10.919 – 00:09:14.300] In fact, you read it, will you? [00:09:14.300 – 00:09:16.460] My glasses are in the car. [00:09:16.460 – 00:09:17.740] Yours are on your nose. [00:09:17.740 – 00:09:18.720] Oh, wait a minute. [00:09:18.720 – 00:09:19.900] Wait, you're off the hook. [00:09:19.900 – 00:09:23.560] Saved by a woman again. [00:09:23.560 – 00:09:26.900] Oh, thank you very much. [00:09:26.900 – 00:09:28.220] I'll get you next time. [00:09:28.220 – 00:09:31.840] Um, somebody sent me the… [00:09:31.840 – 00:09:40.100] You have– You know, sometimes you get a lot of stuff on computers that just, just make you say, "Oh, God, no, not another." But then you get some jewel every once in a while.

[00:09:40.100 – 00:09:44.300] And somebody sent me something along the line I was just talking about. [00:09:44.300 – 00:09:54.700] And, and I don't wanna get us off to a, to a grim start, but, but I'd like to get us off to a, to a, a, a clear example of what I was just beating around. [00:09:54.700 – 00:09:57.340] Somebody sent me this a while back. [00:09:57.340 – 00:09:58.300] You might have seen it. [00:09:58.300 – 00:09:59.900] I don't know how much it's made the rounds. [00:09:59.900 – 00:10:01.160] It's made it quite a bit for me. [00:10:01.160 – 00:10:05.580] Um, it said, it, it's we don't have to drink to die.

[00:10:05.580 – 00:10:15.580] And, um, and, and what it is, is a guy who had sponsored a fella for all practical apper- appearances, but successfully [00:10:15.580 – 00:10:16.300] for a long time. [00:10:16.300 – 00:10:20.859] And, uh, then the guy that he was sponsoring died. [00:10:20.859 – 00:10:24.480] And, and this is something he wrote in the aftermath. [00:10:24.480 – 00:10:28.560] And I could have written the, the same kind of an article, and, and perhaps you could. [00:10:28.560 – 00:10:33.059] If you've done a lot of twelve-step work, if you've worked with a lot of people, you, you might be able to write the same article.

[00:10:33.059 – 00:10:34.660] Now, here's what he said. [00:10:34.660 – 00:10:38.600] It's, uh, it's a little longer than I normally want to read, but, but I think it… [00:10:38.600 – 00:10:41.170] And I'd, I'd like in addition to just sort of enj- [00:10:41.335 – 00:10:43.435] Spending some time together and swapping ideas. [00:10:43.435 – 00:10:49.695] You know, I'd also like to, to at least from my standpoint, enlist you to looking at this at a little deeper level. [00:10:49.695 – 00:10:57.935] You know, not just how do you recover, but how can you recover and have joy and meaning and purpose and learn what a fourth dimension of experience is about.

[00:10:57.935 – 00:11:01.395] And, uh, so here's what this guy w- wrote about. [00:11:01.395 – 00:11:05.195] He said, "We, we, we buried him yesterday. [00:11:05.195 – 00:11:12.935] The county coroner had, had published the required notices for next of kin, and nobody had claimed the body. [00:11:12.935 – 00:11:16.455] It was just his sponsor and I. [00:11:16.455 – 00:11:19.195] No preacher. [00:11:19.195 – 00:11:21.975] The county doesn't pay for those. [00:11:21.975 – 00:11:26.335] Not much of a send-off, and not the one David had asked for. [00:11:26.335 – 00:11:34.455] A cheap coffin, a backhoe dug a hole, and that was it, and another old AA gone.

[00:11:34.455 – 00:11:42.895] He had been sober over twenty years." And this kind of from my money list is misstated a little bit. [00:11:42.895 – 00:11:48.075] "An NAA over thirty." You know, those are sort of mutually exclusive terms. [00:11:48.075 – 00:11:50.515] But anyway, y- we know what he's talking about. [00:11:50.515 – 00:11:55.275] He'd been hanging around and but anyway, sober twen- twenty, and he's been around for thirty. [00:11:55.275 – 00:12:02.715] "A stern and rigid man who tried to soften his edges and never could. [00:12:02.715 – 00:12:10.115] He was a loner, a fringer, and an isolated man at the stage of life's good things.

[00:12:10.115 – 00:12:13.015] At the edge of, of life's good things. [00:12:13.015 – 00:12:17.615] He hung in there, and in the end, he hung himself. [00:12:17.615 – 00:12:20.975] I don't know why. [00:12:20.975 – 00:12:22.275] I can't know. [00:12:22.275 – 00:12:32.585] I know there had been a diagnosis of senile dementia, and I know that the doctor had, had, uh, had added cancer to the list, but I've seen AAs [00:12:32.585 – 00:12:34.395] deal with such things before. [00:12:34.395 – 00:12:38.075] I don't know why David decided he couldn't. [00:12:38.075 – 00:12:44.095] It wasn't the first time I've been through, uh, through this in Alcoholics Anonymous, nor me.

[00:12:44.095 – 00:12:50.715] I've known several over the years who just up and walked out the doors, life's doors one day. [00:12:50.715 – 00:12:53.375] Sober, but were not happy. [00:12:53.375 – 00:12:56.495] Sober, but were not at peace. [00:12:56.495 – 00:13:00.815] Sober, but they died of alcoholism. [00:13:00.815 – 00:13:05.115] Our disease doesn't need us to drink in order to kill us. [00:13:05.115 – 00:13:09.935] I wish more folks knew that and appreciated it. [00:13:09.935 – 00:13:16.495] Alcoholism is the only disease that is, that is entirely capable of fighting back. [00:13:16.495 – 00:13:26.015] Alcoholism can take care of taking care of itself and emerge in new places and new forms when it isn't properly treated.

[00:13:26.015 – 00:13:28.655] That's because of the spiritual malady. [00:13:28.655 – 00:13:34.175] Most people think that th- th- think that that has something to do with prayer or with God. [00:13:34.175 – 00:13:34.735] It doesn't. [00:13:34.735 – 00:13:37.255] It has to do with our spirit. [00:13:37.255 – 00:13:41.355] That force which animates, motivates, and propels us. [00:13:41.355 – 00:13:45.375] As an alcoholic, my spirit is ill. [00:13:45.375 – 00:13:46.595] It is flawed. [00:13:46.595 – 00:13:51.415] My character or basic nature doesn't work right. [00:13:51.415 – 00:13:59.795] At its root, it is a fundamental and irreversible insecurity, a hole that can't ever be filled. [00:13:59.795 – 00:14:09.055] It is an instinct run rampant, a desperate need for acceptance and love that cannot be met.

[00:14:09.055 – 00:14:10.535] It hurts. [00:14:10.535 – 00:14:12.915] It fills one with fear. [00:14:12.915 – 00:14:19.075] The selfish– the selfishness and self-centeredness of the alcoholic lies here. [00:14:19.075 – 00:14:23.255] We're totally preoccupied with what's going on with ourselves on the inside. [00:14:23.255 – 00:14:33.715] The slings and arrows of experience warped by this nee- this need drive, dri- drives us to the fringe, and the voices [00:14:33.715 – 00:14:35.935] of the committee in our head keep us there. [00:14:35.935 – 00:14:51.415] We're obsessed with ourselves, and, and from this, this condition of mind, the insanity of feelings gone haywire, we become self, self-medicators.

[00:14:51.415 – 00:15:00.115] Eventually, we discover alcohol or something else, and the stuff quiets the voices, provides the relief that we've never been able to find any other way. [00:15:00.115 – 00:15:03.355] It isn't any wonder we drink the way we do. [00:15:03.355 – 00:15:09.135] Some of us, in attempting to meet these crying demands of our spirit, become ill. [00:15:09.135 – 00:15:14.815] We develop other malf- uh, malformations of behavior and suffer in a hundred different ways. [00:15:14.815 – 00:15:24.915] God broke the d- Bob– God broke David's obsession to drink, but I don't think David ever truly understood

[00:15:24.915 – 00:15:25.715] his disease. [00:15:25.715 – 00:15:33.115] I say that because I watched him struggle with those old unresolved issues of his heart for years. [00:15:33.115 – 00:15:43.335] His rigidity, coldness, and aloofness, isolation, and difficulty with other people were a reflection of the pain in his heart, [00:15:43.335 – 00:15:48.615] of the disease of alcoholism going deep inside and still active. [00:15:48.615 – 00:15:57.355] Alcoholism doesn't need D- didn't need David to drink in order to continue to try to kill him, and in the end, it succeeded. [00:15:57.355 – 00:16:05.535] In the end, instead of self ab- abandonment, uh, self-abandon, David abandoned hope and discovered a bitter end.

[00:16:05.535 – 00:16:11.355] Our recovery from alcoholism through the stages, uh, must be a threefold process. [00:16:11.355 – 00:16:12.515] It's not one-dimensional. [00:16:12.515 – 00:16:18.275] When we say in AA that we have a triangle r- recovery, unity, and service, we mean it. [00:16:18.275 – 00:16:22.565] In working the steps, I clear a pathway for two purposes. [00:16:22.565 – 00:16:30.735] First, to come into a group of human people and away from the fringe of society where I've spent most of my emotional life. [00:16:30.735 – 00:16:36.475] Secondly, I discover belonging through service to the people within that group.

[00:16:36.475 – 00:16:40.035] It is only this entire threefold process that heals. [00:16:40.035 – 00:16:48.771] It is especially true for those of us who suffer from the spiritual malady to a great degree." Perhaps the 12 steps says it best. [00:16:48.771 – 00:16:58.291] Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. [00:16:58.291 – 00:17:00.451] You see, I cannot hold back. [00:17:00.451 – 00:17:06.791] I must not continue to suffer that shyness, aloneness, that overwhelming sense of self in my affairs.

[00:17:06.791 – 00:17:12.371] I must get involved in a group of people to practice these principles in all my affairs. [00:17:12.371 – 00:17:15.071] Only the ato- the total approach is healing. [00:17:15.071 – 00:17:23.891] Anything less is little more than driving my disease deep, and if I do that, it will continue to eat away, trying to destroy me. [00:17:23.891 – 00:17:34.151] I, I think I, f- for, for some reason, I guess because I've known so many people who followed that trail, that that thing just hit me where I live and was a galvanizing

[00:17:34.151 – 00:17:35.971] kind of a thing to just, just contemplate. [00:17:35.971 – 00:17:38.711] There's so many people come in here and, and miss it. [00:17:38.711 – 00:17:42.571] They think that if I'm just not drinking, everything's okay. [00:17:42.571 – 00:17:44.211] Uh-uh. [00:17:44.211 – 00:17:45.031] Uh-uh. [00:17:45.031 – 00:17:45.790] No. [00:17:45.790 – 00:17:47.131] Witness David. [00:17:47.131 – 00:17:51.051] I've had a, a couple of experiences with, uh… [00:17:51.051 – 00:17:53.711] And I'd, I'd like to hear if any of you have, have seen this. [00:17:53.711 – 00:18:01.031] You know, you can kinda see when somebody's spinning out of control like that, when somebody's in deep trouble. [00:18:01.031 – 00:18:01.611] You can see it.

[00:18:01.611 – 00:18:03.371] You can recognize it a mile away. [00:18:03.371 – 00:18:11.111] But we tend to be at a complete loss ab- about I'll have them stretch it out of shape something awful here. [00:18:11.111 – 00:18:12.611] But thank you very much. [00:18:12.611 – 00:18:17.591] But you can see it, but we're always equally at a loss about how to deal with it. [00:18:17.591 – 00:18:19.371] You know, 'cause you don't wanna meddle. [00:18:19.371 – 00:18:21.811] You don't wanna blunder in, make it worse. [00:18:21.811 – 00:18:30.331] You know, and you recognize that there's trouble coming, but we tend to be equally at a loss about what to do, except just hope for the best.

[00:18:30.331 – 00:18:40.571] And, um, I'll just give you a couple examples of, of things I saw that, um, there were this kind of cases, and God knows there've been legion, but just a couple of recent [00:18:40.571 – 00:18:40.851] ones. [00:18:40.851 – 00:18:43.131] Um, we had a, had a guy… [00:18:43.131 – 00:18:48.691] Well, you know, I'm a guy that I like to hang out by the door, you know. [00:18:48.691 – 00:18:49.971] And, and I, I was even doing it here. [00:18:49.971 – 00:18:53.911] I kind of watch it every once in a while 'cause I, I'm, I'm looking for fresh meat.

[00:18:53.911 – 00:18:55.331] You know, that, that's what I'm after. [00:18:55.331 – 00:18:58.451] And so I like to, you know, you can call it greeting if you want to. [00:18:58.451 – 00:18:59.871] It's more like attacking. [00:18:59.871 – 00:19:07.671] And, uh, if I see somebody come in who looks r- ripe and fresh, uh, I'm gonna be on that s- sucker if he'll, if he'll let me. [00:19:07.671 – 00:19:12.291] And, uh, you know, a while back, a guy came in, and, and he was fresh. [00:19:12.291 – 00:19:13.121] I could tell that. [00:19:13.121 – 00:19:17.511] And the guy, I swear to God, the most ludicrous thing.

[00:19:17.511 – 00:19:20.511] I didn't plan it, but he came in. [00:19:20.511 – 00:19:24.331] He knew who I was, and I was vaguely aware who he was. [00:19:24.331 – 00:19:26.831] When I saw him come in, I, I started after him. [00:19:26.831 – 00:19:29.451] Well, he bolted and ran. [00:19:29.451 – 00:19:30.591] You know what? [00:19:30.591 – 00:19:35.131] So, and so, you talk about setting a good example for Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:19:35.131 – 00:19:41.111] I'm out there chasing him- -around the building, through the bushes, and he got away. [00:19:41.111 – 00:19:44.271] I, uh, uh, uh, the, the boy was swift of foot. [00:19:44.271 – 00:19:46.051] But I just couldn't…

[00:19:46.051 – 00:19:48.411] But I'm glad nobody videoed that. [00:19:48.411 – 00:19:49.191] My God. [00:19:49.191 – 00:19:51.151] It's AA at work, you know. [00:19:51.151 – 00:19:52.271] Come back here, fool. [00:19:52.271 – 00:19:58.731] And, uh, unfortunately, now, that guy, that guy shot himself a couple months later. [00:19:58.731 – 00:20:02.411] And, um, it so happens often, but he didn't get in, eh? [00:20:02.411 – 00:20:07.451] He didn't get a chance to get it and then just not go to depth to get, to get at peace. [00:20:07.451 – 00:20:09.671] Uh, he, he just di- didn't quite make it. [00:20:09.671 – 00:20:15.831] Had, I had another guy c- come in and, uh, I was doing my same thing.

[00:20:15.831 – 00:20:22.431] And this guy came in, and I'd, if you– I guarantee you, you could identify his, his twin, uh, wherever you hang out. [00:20:22.431 – 00:20:26.771] He'd been kinda like, just kinda like David. [00:20:26.771 – 00:20:29.511] He'd been around AA for a long time. [00:20:29.511 – 00:20:33.431] He went to probably t- twice as many local meetings as I did. [00:20:33.431 – 00:20:36.811] And, uh, he went to tons of meetings. [00:20:36.811 – 00:20:38.931] And he came in. [00:20:38.931 – 00:20:42.951] You know, you, you just, you can read a, a drunk. [00:20:42.951 – 00:20:43.551] You know, if you… [00:20:43.551 – 00:20:44.431] You can read one.

[00:20:44.431 – 00:20:46.731] You, you, you see, you see yourself in some of them. [00:20:46.731 – 00:20:50.971] And so he came in, and you talk about a dead man walking. [00:20:50.971 – 00:20:52.251] That's, that's what he was. [00:20:52.251 – 00:20:53.751] He was a dead man walking. [00:20:53.751 – 00:21:01.531] And so he, he came in the room, and I went over, and I, I mean, you know, y- uh, even as clumsy as I am, I got a little sensitivity. [00:21:01.531 – 00:21:10.131] And you, and you gotta know how to move and when to move because you can do great damage if you try to treat everybody the same and just bump in on them.

[00:21:10.131 – 00:21:15.351] You know, sometimes somebody needs a, a boot in the pants, and sometimes you just need an arm around them. [00:21:15.351 – 00:21:21.271] Or just somebody to listen to them a little bit. [00:21:21.271 – 00:21:22.481] So this guy came in. [00:21:22.603 – 00:21:23.503] And he was like that. [00:21:23.503 – 00:21:25.803] Yeah, I mean, you could tell this guy couldn't take any punches. [00:21:25.803 – 00:21:28.163] He was, he was, um, he, he was out of it. [00:21:28.163 – 00:21:34.443] So I just went over and, uh, and, uh, and, and messed with him a little bit, just real friendly kind of stuff.

[00:21:34.443 – 00:21:35.463] Nothing, nothing pushy. [00:21:35.463 – 00:21:40.643] And, um, we got a coffee, and he started following me. [00:21:40.643 – 00:21:43.783] You know, everywhere I'd go, yeah, he'd follow just like a puppy. [00:21:43.783 – 00:21:45.243] You know, he'd go follow me. [00:21:45.243 – 00:21:46.823] I look around, there he is, you know. [00:21:46.823 – 00:21:47.863] I'd sit out on the front… [00:21:47.863 – 00:21:49.163] He never sat on the front row. [00:21:49.163 – 00:21:50.803] I do 'cause I can't hear. [00:21:50.803 – 00:21:52.783] So we sat on… [00:21:52.783 – 00:21:53.823] So I sat on the front row. [00:21:53.823 – 00:21:55.003] Here he comes right beside me. [00:21:55.003 – 00:21:57.783] And he did that for a while.

[00:21:57.783 – 00:22:04.023] And, uh, he said, "How can I get active in this thing?" I said, "Shoot, man. [00:22:04.023 – 00:22:09.103] You have asked the magic question." I said, "Tomorrow night, be ready. [00:22:09.103 – 00:22:14.193] I'll take you to prison, big dude." And, uh, he said, "Really?" I said, "You better believe it. [00:22:14.193 – 00:22:16.543] I might leave you if you don't straighten up." But… [00:22:16.543 – 00:22:17.703] And so we went. [00:22:17.703 – 00:22:21.823] Now, he was a, he was a guy, it shows you can't buy joy. [00:22:21.823 – 00:22:25.703] Uh, this guy had more money than, than I'll ever see in my lifetime.

[00:22:25.703 – 00:22:29.983] He was a deep pockets dude, had a Mercedes long as this building almost. [00:22:29.983 – 00:22:31.923] I mean, that was a horse of a car. [00:22:31.923 – 00:22:35.863] Well, he came over and picked me up in it, and we went out to the prison. [00:22:35.863 – 00:22:45.903] And so we're sitting there in the meeting, and, uh, off- an officer came over to me and said, "Tom, you have a Mercedes?" I [00:22:45.903 – 00:22:49.383] said, I said, "Yeah, uh, uh, uh, but it's, it's home in the garage. [00:22:49.383 – 00:22:52.883] It won't run." And, uh, he said, "No, I'm not talking about that.

[00:22:52.883 – 00:22:58.003] I'm talking about one out in the parking lot that's long and sleek and, and big time." I said, "That's not me. [00:22:58.003 – 00:23:01.543] It's him." And so here he is sitting over there looking like a whipped dog. [00:23:01.543 – 00:23:05.423] And, uh, I said, "Your lights are on. [00:23:05.423 – 00:23:11.543] Go turn them off." He said, "I don't wanna leave the meeting." I said, "I don't wanna walk home." Get out. [00:23:11.543 – 00:23:14.663] And he said, "No, no, no, no. [00:23:14.663 – 00:23:15.883] Battery's good. [00:23:15.883 – 00:23:21.183] Trust me." I said, "I will trust you, but you better hope that battery starts." So we, we, we got through it.

[00:23:21.183 – 00:23:21.383] Yeah. [00:23:21.383 – 00:23:22.683] See what's happening? [00:23:22.683 – 00:23:24.703] I was just a little bit of sort of coming alive, eh? [00:23:24.703 – 00:23:26.043] A little bit of coming alive. [00:23:26.043 – 00:23:30.483] And, um, I mean, it's just different strokes for different folks. [00:23:30.483 – 00:23:32.472] And he, he… [00:23:32.472 – 00:23:34.483] Later on, he asked me, he said, "Will you work with me? [00:23:34.483 – 00:23:42.503] Will you sponsor me?" I said, I said, "Yeah, yeah, I'll do that." And, uh, 'cause we spent enough time together, and I was confident that he sure needed some help. [00:23:42.503 – 00:23:45.642] And, uh, I was intrigued by that guy.

[00:23:45.642 – 00:23:47.783] He cried at anything. [00:23:47.783 – 00:23:50.123] I mean, you read the steps, he'd cry. [00:23:50.123 – 00:23:52.583] Heard them a thousand times, he'd cry anyway. [00:23:52.583 – 00:23:54.563] Tradition, he'd cry at traditions. [00:23:54.563 – 00:23:57.463] You know, it's, and, uh, anything. [00:23:57.463 – 00:23:58.803] Well, there's something wrong with that. [00:23:58.803 – 00:24:01.983] I mean, my God, you're not supposed to gush up on, on everything that happens. [00:24:01.983 – 00:24:05.643] And, uh, you, you don't have to press too much, you know. [00:24:05.643 – 00:24:07.463] As soon as you build up a little trust. [00:24:07.463 – 00:24:11.563] Tell you one thing I've learned, if you get the trust of an alcoholic, it's lifetime.

[00:24:11.563 – 00:24:13.202] It's lifetime. [00:24:13.202 – 00:24:19.103] And unless you grossly violate it, uh, you got it for keeps whether you want it or not. [00:24:19.103 – 00:24:24.703] I get, I get an awful lot of calls from people on the West Coast who forget there's a time difference. [00:24:24.703 – 00:24:28.763] Three o'clock in the morning, you know, "What are you doing?" What do you think I'm doing, idiot? [00:24:28.763 – 00:24:29.003] I'm… [00:24:29.003 – 00:24:30.323] Three o'clock in the morning. [00:24:30.323 – 00:24:34.103] And, but anyway, once you get it, it's there, you know. [00:24:34.103 – 00:24:42.443] Well, one, we, we ride one night and he said, uh, he, he, he, he started telling me about it.

[00:24:42.443 – 00:24:43.483] He had two sons. [00:24:43.483 – 00:24:46.943] One of them had already committed suicide. [00:24:46.943 – 00:24:55.843] The other one hadn't, they hadn't exchanged any communication of any form for many, many years. [00:24:55.843 – 00:24:57.643] The fellow was forty-two years old. [00:24:57.643 – 00:24:59.663] The, the, the son was forty-two years old. [00:24:59.663 – 00:25:02.603] They hadn't communicated since the boy was a child. [00:25:02.603 – 00:25:10.683] Well, as he started to unfold his story, pretty obvious what's happening. [00:25:10.683 – 00:25:14.783] Not drinking and going to meetings doesn't touch that. [00:25:14.783 – 00:25:17.643] I mean, it doesn't even come close to touching that.

[00:25:17.643 – 00:25:27.883] And so what he's got is this same old guilt that he's drug like an anchor forever and will drag like an anchor forever [00:25:27.883 – 00:25:30.403] unless he does the things that make you free. [00:25:30.403 – 00:25:35.203] And so he told me about that, and I said, "Well, let me think about that a little bit. [00:25:35.203 – 00:25:42.802] Now, that's a pretty naughty situation you got." And the son lived out west somewhere, not California, another state, but he lived out west. [00:25:42.802 – 00:25:48.123] And, uh, so I thought about it for a day or so, and I said, "All right.

[00:25:48.123 – 00:25:51.143] I tell you what we're gonna do, which means you. [00:25:51.143 – 00:26:01.863] You buy a ticket." He could've bought the airplane, but I said, "You buy a ticket to that town, call your son, tell him you're coming, and you want two hours of his time, [00:26:01.863 – 00:26:09.163] that you wanna make amends." I said, "Don't be killing a moose or anything, and you're trying to cook and all that and have a family reunion. [00:26:09.163 – 00:26:11.543] Don't call the grandkids. [00:26:11.543 – 00:26:14.273] You go see that, that fella and get him…

[00:26:14.273 – 00:26:18.453] But the next day, get on that plane, come back." "Okay." I, I looked… [00:26:18.453 – 00:26:19.643] Never got him to make the phone call. [00:26:19.643 – 00:26:29.663] And he finally made the phone call, got the ticket, took off, got out there, and he called me and he said, "Tom, I'm coming back." And I could tell the way he was [00:26:29.663 – 00:26:31.903] saying it, mission had not been accomplished. [00:26:31.903 – 00:26:41.983] And I said, "Have you seen the, your, your son?" He said, "No." I said, "Why not?" He said, "He doesn't want to see me." "Well, how do you know he doesn't want to see you?"

[00:26:41.983 – 00:26:46.483] "Well, I just know." And I said, "No, no, no. [00:26:46.483 – 00:26:47.703] That's not gonna work. [00:26:47.703 – 00:26:53.883] You pick up that phone, you get that boy on there, and you tell him you want two hours, and he'll be there. [00:26:53.883 – 00:26:55.463] Believe that. [00:26:55.463 – 00:27:03.103] And, uh, if you come back east, don't come to North Carolina. [00:27:03.103 – 00:27:05.353] You better go somewhere else, you know. [00:27:05.353 – 00:27:11.943] Don't come to, uh, don't come down to, to our place, you know, and, uh, get on with it." Well, he did.

[00:27:11.943 – 00:27:17.183] And, you know, it sounds like moving Mount Vesuvius or something, you know, to, to go and do it. [00:27:17.183 – 00:27:19.123] He met for two hours with that fella. [00:27:19.123 – 00:27:25.403] That summer, that family took their, their holiday, stayed with him. [00:27:25.403 – 00:27:28.851] Excuse me. [00:27:28.851 – 00:27:30.511] But reunions, eh? [00:27:30.511 – 00:27:34.511] Now this guy, this guy was that close to suicide. [00:27:34.511 – 00:27:35.911] He didn't need to tell you. [00:27:35.911 – 00:27:36.791] You could read it. [00:27:36.791 – 00:27:38.231] He was that close. [00:27:38.231 – 00:27:44.571] And just a simple thing like taking the actions that are laid out in the steps give the freedom.

[00:27:44.571 – 00:27:47.331] So they're having a good time. [00:27:47.331 – 00:27:51.271] Now he's still s– uh, he's still a contrary sucker. [00:27:51.271 – 00:27:54.031] I can't get him to lighten up and, and have fun. [00:27:54.031 – 00:27:58.271] But anyway, he's a whole lot better than he was. [00:27:58.271 – 00:27:59.951] But that, that's one. [00:27:59.951 – 00:28:05.451] You know, now, you know, thank God, you know, he took the actions before he went down, but he would've been this guy. [00:28:05.451 – 00:28:06.171] I guarantee you. [00:28:06.171 – 00:28:10.731] This guy was sober 16 years at the point I described when he walked in the door.

[00:28:10.731 – 00:28:13.531] Sixteen years, and this is what it had produced. [00:28:13.531 – 00:28:16.291] And my God, how many people you see like that? [00:28:16.291 – 00:28:21.111] That, that are just walking around just like a death march. [00:28:21.111 – 00:28:22.611] You know, just sort of wandering through. [00:28:22.611 – 00:28:25.951] Not touching the things that drive you. [00:28:25.951 – 00:28:27.971] You know, that's what alcoholism's about. [00:28:27.971 – 00:28:29.551] That's why drinking doesn't touch it. [00:28:29.551 – 00:28:33.411] And those defects or characters don't go– They don't die of old age. [00:28:33.411 – 00:28:34.891] They get worse. [00:28:34.891 – 00:28:35.731] They don't get better. [00:28:35.731 – 00:28:36.551] Ne-never. [00:28:36.551 – 00:28:39.650] And, uh, so you drag 'em forever, and that's what he'd done.

[00:28:39.650 – 00:28:41.651] And I'll tell you just one more. [00:28:41.651 – 00:28:44.411] I've done– I'm gonna spend till Sunday telling war stories. [00:28:44.411 – 00:28:49.391] But I like these war stories because I think they make a point about what we're talking about here. [00:28:49.391 – 00:28:56.411] I mean, you guys didn't just say, "I think I'll go," and, "I haven't heard the step read since last night." And I don't think that's what you're looking for. [00:28:56.411 – 00:28:58.331] I, you know, I think you wanna get in a little deeper water. [00:28:58.331 – 00:29:01.951] And, uh, the other guy I, I mentioned that…

[00:29:01.951 – 00:29:06.301] I don't work with just, just, just wealthy folks. [00:29:06.301 – 00:29:08.471] I w– Believe me, I don't. [00:29:08.471 – 00:29:11.331] And, but, but there was another guy that… [00:29:11.331 – 00:29:12.971] And you know, sometimes… [00:29:12.971 – 00:29:17.391] You didn't do that, did you? [00:29:17.391 – 00:29:18.121] No. [00:29:18.121 – 00:29:18.811] Okay, good. [00:29:18.811 – 00:29:20.831] I just- I knew what you were doing. [00:29:20.831 – 00:29:22.041] Don't fall out of love. [00:29:22.041 – 00:29:23.911] He said not to fall out of love with Mike. [00:29:23.911 – 00:29:26.231] If you see me starting to drift, he breaks bad. [00:29:26.231 – 00:29:27.031] He's from New Jersey. [00:29:27.031 – 00:29:29.571] He breaks bad the second time he has to tell you something.

[00:29:29.571 – 00:29:30.951] So tell me if I drift away. [00:29:30.951 – 00:29:40.811] This other guy, you know, you know, we don't mean any harm by it, but sometimes we'll fast-track somebody just because they're not in the norm. [00:29:40.811 – 00:29:45.531] And this guy was a guy, he was a, is a, he's a multimillionaire. [00:29:45.531 – 00:29:49.460] And, um, he got in the program, and that… [00:29:49.460 – 00:29:59.831] I guess people interpret many dollars as meaning many talents and being many, uh, you know, levels of preparation. [00:29:59.831 – 00:30:01.571] Not necessarily true. [00:30:01.571 – 00:30:06.411] But in our infinite wisdom, we fast-tracked this guy.

[00:30:06.411 – 00:30:10.871] He got into service structure, uh, he, he DCM then went into the area committee. [00:30:10.871 – 00:30:13.791] He was, he was state chair when he was five years sober. [00:30:13.791 – 00:30:21.391] Gross negligence on our part to touch base chair. [00:30:21.391 – 00:30:28.731] He, he lasted with this sort of fast-tracking, everything's behind the podium or whatever, for 12 years. [00:30:28.731 – 00:30:30.270] Then he got drunk. [00:30:30.270 – 00:30:37.271] And, uh, and I just happened to have moved to the town where he lived, and so I was there when that happened.

[00:30:37.271 – 00:30:47.351] And I watched that guy for the next, I think it was 22 years, that he was desperate [00:30:47.351 – 00:30:49.391] trying to come back. [00:30:49.391 – 00:30:58.971] And, and, and I w- and I watched that, that exercise in futility that drives so many alcoholics crazy, that, uh… [00:30:58.971 – 00:31:10.091] You know, I'd, I'd wondered for a long time about, you know, people, and, and I know you've seen them, people who, who, [00:31:10.091 – 00:31:19.531] who, who, who, who slip or get drunk and, and try to come back and beat their brains out trying to recapture what they had.

[00:31:19.531 – 00:31:28.731] And that, I tell you, that bugged me because, I mean, I saw dear friends go through that agony of coming back in and just can't get it. [00:31:28.731 – 00:31:35.371] And, uh, one day I read something by, you know that William James that Bill, Bill liked to read? [00:31:35.371 – 00:31:37.131] I read something one day. [00:31:37.131 – 00:31:38.251] I didn't read the whole book. [00:31:38.251 – 00:31:41.211] I'd– That would've given me DTs, I think, to read the whole book. [00:31:41.211 – 00:31:49.751] But, but I read one little thing in there that said– And boy, this, this, this, this absolutely cleared the puzzle instantly.

[00:31:49.751 – 00:31:59.751] And what William James said was, "No state of mind, once attained and lost, can ever be [00:31:59.751 – 00:32:03.741] regained and be the same." The minute I read that- [00:32:04.611 – 00:32:11.811] I understood 100% what that dilemma was about, of people coming in here desperately trying to recapture. [00:32:11.811 – 00:32:14.471] You'll never have another first honeymoon. [00:32:14.471 – 00:32:16.451] They're one to a customer. [00:32:16.451 – 00:32:21.191] You have another one, you can have a lot of them, but it won't be the first one. [00:32:21.191 – 00:32:26.451] You'll never have another first day of st- of, of, in, of, in, in recovery in Alcoholics Anonymous.

[00:32:26.451 – 00:32:29.611] So when you come out, it's automatically different, eh? [00:32:29.611 – 00:32:34.431] And, uh, and so people beat their brains out on a futile mission. [00:32:34.431 – 00:32:38.291] And, and, and, and, uh, boy, that clarified something for me. [00:32:38.291 – 00:32:48.331] And any time I'm working with new people or worked with people who've had trouble, you can bet that's the first thing I'm gonna tell them, is that don't start where [00:32:48.331 – 00:32:49.391] you left off. [00:32:49.391 – 00:32:53.371] Where you left off, I haven't done this since last night. [00:32:53.371 – 00:32:56.731] Where you left off is history.

[00:32:56.731 – 00:33:00.810] It has absolutely no redeemable value. [00:33:00.810 – 00:33:01.491] None. [00:33:01.491 – 00:33:03.231] It was a bummer. [00:33:03.231 – 00:33:04.611] It was a bummer. [00:33:04.611 – 00:33:06.711] Whatever that history was, it led you out the door. [00:33:06.711 – 00:33:11.251] Write that sucker off, and you treat yourself like a newcomer. [00:33:11.251 – 00:33:12.071] Start over. [00:33:12.071 – 00:33:13.671] Start over. [00:33:13.671 – 00:33:16.871] And, and, and, and maybe you got a chance. [00:33:16.871 – 00:33:21.931] For, for my money, you either gotta go for something better or settle for less. [00:33:21.931 – 00:33:23.151] It'll never be the same. [00:33:23.151 – 00:33:25.471] And so that, that made a big difference. [00:33:25.471 – 00:33:30.951] Well, this guy, and I didn't know, I, I, I went to James trying to figure out what was going on with him.

[00:33:30.951 – 00:33:34.751] And he was literally beating himself to death. [00:33:34.751 – 00:33:38.751] And finally, well, he got into one of these… [00:33:38.751 – 00:33:46.931] I, I won't go into that much detail about it, but he got into one of these wild evangelical kind of, of things, you know, hootenanny type of thing. [00:33:46.931 – 00:33:52.971] He got into that, and, uh, he got deeply into it, bought a guy a condo and a Rolls, and, uh… [00:33:52.971 – 00:33:57.351] Well, anyway, it, it just was a desperate search. [00:33:57.351 – 00:34:00.011] And then that ended.

[00:34:00.011 – 00:34:07.131] And then at, at 22 years, he drove off to, in one of his big, long Cadillacs and shot himself. [00:34:07.131 – 00:34:09.851] So it's not just cosmetic. [00:34:09.851 – 00:34:14.171] It's not just some minor thing, you know, where, where alcoholism's a deadly illness. [00:34:14.171 – 00:34:17.251] And just like the man said, you don't have to drink to die. [00:34:17.251 – 00:34:27.391] I'm told, and I, and I'm inclined to believe it, that more alcoholics die in early recovery than in active [00:34:27.391 – 00:34:29.271] alcoholism from suicide. [00:34:29.271 – 00:34:31.231] And that makes sense. [00:34:31.231 – 00:34:38.271] You know, if alcoholism is a lot more than drinking, and it doesn't go away when you're not, why wouldn't that be true?

[00:34:38.271 – 00:34:44.131] Booze, I know, kept me from committing suicide many times. [00:34:44.131 – 00:34:45.671] Many times. [00:34:45.671 – 00:34:48.971] It was the medication for the illness. [00:34:48.971 – 00:34:54.331] And then when there's no, no more medic-medication, the illness charges on. [00:34:54.331 – 00:35:00.471] And so anyway, that, now that's a long kind of an introduction, but, uh, that's one of the things. [00:35:00.471 – 00:35:10.541] I hope you guys will help me get a better handle on, of how can you deal with somebody who's on that death march and, and, and encourage them to get into

[00:35:10.541 – 00:35:12.271] the, to the healing of the steps. [00:35:12.271 – 00:35:16.011] And, um, so that, that's something there. [00:35:16.011 – 00:35:21.090] Any- anybody else got a, a particular kind of a thing you would, you'd like to take away from here on Sunday? [00:35:21.090 – 00:35:25.271] I'll, I'll bring Mike to you. [00:35:25.271 – 00:35:28.031] He'll be kicking and screaming, but I'll bring him anyway. [00:35:28.031 – 00:35:29.411] Anybody? [00:35:29.411 – 00:35:29.931] Anything? [00:35:29.931 – 00:35:34.051] All right. [00:35:34.051 – 00:35:37.471] Well, do– interrupt any time, you know, if you, if you got something you just want to throw it out. [00:35:37.471 – 00:35:39.141] And- I've got one thing.

[00:35:39.141 – 00:35:39.451] Huh? [00:35:39.451 – 00:35:41.011] Before we leave here. [00:35:41.011 – 00:35:41.311] Yeah. [00:35:41.311 – 00:35:47.391] What, what, what you did with treatment, what you did with treatment at the state convention this year. [00:35:47.391 – 00:35:53.231] I'd like to hear you run over that, when you talked about our- Oh, yeah. [00:35:53.231 – 00:35:53.991] In Fort Lauderdale. [00:35:53.991 – 00:35:57.091] That's, that's the three legacies and one-dimensional groups. [00:35:57.091 – 00:35:59.131] Yeah. [00:35:59.131 – 00:35:59.571] Okay. [00:35:59.571 – 00:36:03.941] Yeah, well, it, Andrew, thank you for remembering that. [00:36:03.941 – 00:36:04.851] I forgot where I was. [00:36:04.851 – 00:36:06.001] I, I thought- Sorry about that. [00:36:06.001 – 00:36:07.431] Yeah, I thought I was in Scotland. [00:36:07.431 – 00:36:10.511] No, I do remember that.

[00:36:10.511 – 00:36:13.571] That, that was a, that was a good bunch to work with. [00:36:13.571 – 00:36:23.690] Yeah, and he, and what he's talking about is, is that it's not just as individuals that we have, we gotta branch out, but as a, as a fellowship or as a group to not be so [00:36:23.690 – 00:36:26.871] one-dimensional that we miss the parade, you know. [00:36:26.871 – 00:36:28.051] And that can easily happen, eh? [00:36:28.051 – 00:36:29.131] Easily happen. [00:36:29.131 – 00:36:32.131] That's, uh, uh, that's the, the notes you're talking about. [00:36:32.131 – 00:36:33.931] Yeah. [00:36:33.931 – 00:36:38.811] And, and, and by the way, it closely marries to what we're talking about on the other, uh, whereas it's…

[00:36:38.811 – 00:36:40.691] So that's one. [00:36:40.691 – 00:36:41.481] Any- anybody else? [00:36:41.481 – 00:36:46.191] Anything that, uh, you'd, you'd just like to, to hear us beat around a little bit here? [00:36:46.191 – 00:36:47.211] Yeah. [00:36:47.211 – 00:36:48.331] All right. [00:36:48.331 – 00:36:50.631] Well, any time, uh, uh, going through if you do. [00:36:50.631 – 00:36:53.371] Uh, now I'm just gonna, um… [00:36:53.371 – 00:36:59.391] We're gonna quit at what time? [00:36:59.391 – 00:37:00.691] What time we gonna quit, Warren? [00:37:00.691 – 00:37:01.721] Whenever you want. [00:37:01.721 – 00:37:02.271] Now, wait a minute now. [00:37:02.271 – 00:37:04.131] You can't make me responsible for the world. [00:37:04.131 – 00:37:07.571] Now, listen, you, these people will hurt you if you don't do it right.

[00:37:07.571 – 00:37:08.651] I got… [00:37:08.651 – 00:37:11.471] Uh, when are we gonna go? [00:37:11.471 – 00:37:14.651] About a, a couple hours or three or whatever? [00:37:14.651 – 00:37:15.061] Whatever. [00:37:15.061 – 00:37:17.441] Now, I can go forever, but, uh- Yeah, you can … [00:37:17.441 – 00:37:19.391] I hate, I hate to talk when the crowd's gone. [00:37:19.391 – 00:37:23.991] And so We're leaving. [00:37:23.991 – 00:37:25.501] I'm leaving about nine o'clock. [00:37:25.501 – 00:37:26.031] You what? [00:37:26.031 – 00:37:27.821] I said we're leaving at 9:00. [00:37:27.821 – 00:37:28.661] You're gonna leave at 9:00? [00:37:28.661 – 00:37:29.901] Yeah. [00:37:29.901 – 00:37:30.071] All right. [00:37:30.071 – 00:37:30.751] I'm going with you. [00:37:30.751 – 00:37:31.921] Don't be tired by then. [00:37:31.921 – 00:37:32.651] I'm going with you. [00:37:32.651 – 00:37:34.510] Wherever you're going, I'm going .

[00:37:34.510 – 00:37:34.831] All right. [00:37:34.831 – 00:37:35.311] All right. [00:37:35.311 – 00:37:37.081] We'll go, we'll, we'll go to 9:00. [00:37:37.081 – 00:37:37.201] Yeah. [00:37:37.201 – 00:37:40.851] And if you need a break, you just give yourself a break, and we won't, we won't stop for one. [00:37:40.851 – 00:37:41.651] We'll just get on through. [00:37:41.651 – 00:37:50.591] Uh, what, what I, what, what, uh, what I think I'll do is, you know, just like I said in the beginning, I don't wanna preach to you, and I'm not gonna read. [00:37:50.591 – 00:37:52.991] I got a great big book over there. [00:37:52.991 – 00:37:57.491] I thought that'd be impressive if I had a big book weighed twenty pounds and it's red.

[00:37:57.491 – 00:38:01.371] Now you know a guy's gotta be smart to got a book like that. [00:38:01.371 – 00:38:03.551] I don't know if I've ever opened it. [00:38:03.551 – 00:38:07.510] The folks out in Oklahoma gave it to me on condition that I use it. [00:38:07.510 – 00:38:13.307] And so you are If you, uh, you gotta, may have to verify that I'm actually using that book. [00:38:13.307 – 00:38:15.467] So far just to lean on. [00:38:15.467 – 00:38:18.407] But m- but may have to go to it here sometime. [00:38:18.407 – 00:38:27.686] So I, I want to just kind of wrap it around, around, around, around, around my experience and, uh, and then just sort of veer off wherever that, wherever that might go.

[00:38:27.686 – 00:38:31.507] And I have no earthly idea. [00:38:31.507 – 00:38:32.847] We'll just find out together. [00:38:32.847 – 00:38:34.947] We, uh… [00:38:34.947 – 00:38:41.427] You know, I was, I was a guy that… [00:38:41.427 – 00:38:44.427] You know, my alcoholism developed ear- uh, early on, you know. [00:38:44.427 – 00:38:48.847] It, it's certainly in the sense of what, uh, what I was talking about earlier. [00:38:48.847 – 00:38:52.047] You know, I'm not gonna go into a whole bunch of causation. [00:38:52.047 – 00:38:58.817] We can visit as much as you want to, but, but I'm not, uh, you know, I'm not a causation freak, but I'm not the village idiot either.

[00:38:58.817 – 00:39:01.967] I don't think I bought my alcoholism at a bootlegger. [00:39:01.967 – 00:39:04.247] You know, I think it's far more complex than that. [00:39:04.247 – 00:39:09.107] And, uh, and I've, you, you know, I traced mine kind of like the line we were talking about here. [00:39:09.107 – 00:39:17.907] You know, I was a guy who grew up, grew up in, uh, in, in, in conditions that just, just tilted me a certain direction. [00:39:17.907 – 00:39:23.787] I grew up in a home where there was never any real stable, uh, uh, parents around, except my mother.

[00:39:23.787 – 00:39:31.547] And, uh, so, you know, I was born down in the edge of South Carolina and got out of there quick as I could. [00:39:31.547 – 00:39:33.227] I didn't even know where I was, but I wanted out. [00:39:33.227 – 00:39:33.827] I knew that. [00:39:33.827 – 00:39:43.847] And, uh, yeah, I had a number of things happen that I think were extremely significant in, in forming old Tom I into be the kind of guy that, that [00:39:43.847 – 00:39:44.907] had the needs I had. [00:39:44.907 – 00:39:49.207] Uh, you know, my father deserted the family when I was four years old.

[00:39:49.207 – 00:39:51.647] I saw him leave. [00:39:51.647 – 00:39:55.907] You know, I was sitting in the yard playing, a four-year-old kid, and I saw him walk away. [00:39:55.907 – 00:40:00.227] D- had no idea where he was going, but somehow knew he was not coming back. [00:40:00.227 – 00:40:01.467] Knew it. [00:40:01.467 – 00:40:02.207] He never did. [00:40:02.207 – 00:40:04.747] And I went through, uh, my entire life. [00:40:04.747 – 00:40:13.627] I met him twice, uh, in, in my formative years, in probably elementary school y- years, when we were being in that town and, and see him on the streets.

[00:40:13.627 – 00:40:14.467] The only way I ever met him. [00:40:14.467 – 00:40:16.787] It'd be just like meeting the guy selling apples, you know? [00:40:16.787 – 00:40:17.947] It didn't, didn't mean anything. [00:40:17.947 – 00:40:21.126] And, and so that's no big deal, is it? [00:40:21.126 – 00:40:21.467] Yeah. [00:40:21.467 – 00:40:23.287] You– Well, it is a big deal. [00:40:23.287 – 00:40:25.247] You can hurry up and believe it's a big deal. [00:40:25.247 – 00:40:34.007] When a, a father particularly deserts a four-year-old child, that is not without s- some, some, some damage. [00:40:34.007 – 00:40:37.626] There is damage that is automatically a part of that. [00:40:37.626 – 00:40:47.727] And so, I mean, I didn't bawl when he left, but I grew up with a, with a hole where there should have been a father who does what fathers ought to do,

[00:40:47.727 – 00:40:54.467] and that's make folk feel secure, cared about, you know, that set the model for, for, for boys, stuff like that. [00:40:54.467 – 00:40:56.127] And, and, and then there was… [00:40:56.127 – 00:40:57.387] I grew up in a house full of women. [00:40:57.387 – 00:40:58.727] And I like women. [00:40:58.727 – 00:40:59.727] I, I married one. [00:40:59.727 – 00:41:04.627] And, uh, and, uh, contrary to the evidence, I like women. [00:41:04.627 – 00:41:06.287] I got … [00:41:06.287 – 00:41:15.987] And, uh, yeah, it's– And, and that's not– that's all right, but, you know, like when I was growing up, I never had any experiences with an adult male.

[00:41:15.987 – 00:41:17.107] None. [00:41:17.107 – 00:41:18.527] I mean, that had any meaning. [00:41:18.527 – 00:41:21.207] I mean, somebody pat me on the head or something, but none, nothing. [00:41:21.207 – 00:41:23.787] I never had a substantial conversation with an adult male. [00:41:23.787 – 00:41:26.187] Never went hunting, fishing, nothing. [00:41:26.187 – 00:41:31.126] And so when the other boys are talking about what they did with their dads, I got nothing to say. [00:41:31.126 – 00:41:34.687] That's a, that's one little piece of it. [00:41:34.687 – 00:41:40.367] The other thing is that when the breadwinner's gone, that I didn't even know what insecurity meant, but that's what I felt.

[00:41:40.367 – 00:41:45.127] And so I grew up with this sort of ever-present sense of insecurity, fear. [00:41:45.127 – 00:41:51.527] Now, it was related to more than just the, the dad, but, uh, but all of it comes out of that same kind of a, of, of a setting. [00:41:51.527 – 00:41:54.527] So I grew up with a, with an inordinate amount of fear. [00:41:54.527 – 00:42:02.407] Not particularly of goofy th- things to do, but a fear of trust, of closeness, of stuff like that. [00:42:02.407 – 00:42:05.087] You know, I just, I had a basic just fear.

[00:42:05.087 – 00:42:10.047] I think if there was another, uh, word for alcoholism, it would be self-centered fear. [00:42:10.047 – 00:42:13.387] And that's exactly what I had, was self-centered fear. [00:42:13.387 – 00:42:16.497] And, uh, a lot of insecurity. [00:42:16.497 – 00:42:17.687] A, a lot of anger. [00:42:17.687 – 00:42:24.187] You know, I, I was angry, but not particularly mad about anything, but just a, a little anger that, that was always there. [00:42:24.187 – 00:42:30.627] Developed a remarkable inability to have relationships with people. [00:42:30.627 – 00:42:31.687] Anybody. [00:42:31.687 – 00:42:41.387] I never had a truly committed relationship with another human, particularly women, till I was in, in sober in AA.

[00:42:41.387 – 00:42:42.687] I mean, ever. [00:42:42.687 – 00:42:44.047] None. [00:42:44.047 – 00:42:44.997] And- [00:42:45.133 – 00:42:48.693] And it was not that I didn't have a lot of, of crowd of people around all the time. [00:42:48.693 – 00:42:50.772] It's that I never would get… [00:42:50.772 – 00:42:52.573] When I'd get close to somebody, I'd always hold back. [00:42:52.573 – 00:42:53.473] Wonder why. [00:42:53.473 – 00:42:55.233] I'd always hold back. [00:42:55.233 – 00:42:56.963] If I got close to a woman… [00:42:56.963 – 00:43:02.333] My mother is a, was a large, uh, uh, t- tall, tough woman. [00:43:02.333 – 00:43:03.453] She wouldn't argue with people. [00:43:03.453 – 00:43:04.253] She'd fight. [00:43:04.253 – 00:43:05.933] I mean, she'd just flat fight. [00:43:05.933 – 00:43:07.813] And, uh, including me.

[00:43:07.813 – 00:43:11.193] And so she was a, she was a dominate, dominating fellow. [00:43:11.193 – 00:43:16.553] She was, uh, she was also somebody… [00:43:16.553 – 00:43:18.773] She was a wonderful mother. [00:43:18.773 – 00:43:19.933] She just overdid it. [00:43:19.933 – 00:43:26.593] And I know nobody else ever had anything like that, but she overdid it. [00:43:26.593 – 00:43:33.453] I, I promise you, as bad as I was, I could have stayed drunk for the rest of my life at her house, at her expense, if I wouldn't leave. [00:43:33.453 – 00:43:37.173] She was somebody that just, just simply… [00:43:37.173 – 00:43:40.783] Shy. [00:43:40.783 – 00:43:41.473] Oh, thank you.

[00:43:41.473 – 00:43:44.033] I thought she would throw stuff at the microphone. [00:43:44.033 – 00:43:45.393] Thank you, Jim, very much. [00:43:45.393 – 00:43:48.193] But she w- she grew up that way. [00:43:48.193 – 00:43:51.733] So you can sort of see why I'd have a little bit of reservation with women, eh? [00:43:51.733 – 00:43:55.173] That, uh, that, uh, w- when I started getting close, I'd see Mama. [00:43:55.173 – 00:43:56.793] And so I just… [00:43:56.793 – 00:43:58.073] Now, I didn't think that out. [00:43:58.073 – 00:43:59.893] It's just a reaction, eh? [00:43:59.893 – 00:44:02.453] It's a defect of character, as we call it. [00:44:02.453 – 00:44:10.093] You know, an inability to get relationships where there's trust and, and concern and love and, you know, the, the, the things that matter.

[00:44:10.093 – 00:44:12.693] And so those kind of things are… [00:44:12.693 – 00:44:13.893] And, and, and much more. [00:44:13.893 – 00:44:16.513] But I think you sort of get the picture, and you probably got your own. [00:44:16.513 – 00:44:20.753] But, but when I think about where my alcoholism come, why was booze so important to me? [00:44:20.753 – 00:44:25.893] Well, when you think about that mess, man, booze straightened all that out. [00:44:25.893 – 00:44:33.393] I mean, it absolutely gave me confidence and, uh, and, uh, shoot, man, I'd, I'd not only fit in the crowd, I'd take over.

[00:44:33.393 – 00:44:35.813] I mean, I was flat just was, uh… [00:44:35.813 – 00:44:38.153] So I'd have been stupid to not drink. [00:44:38.153 – 00:44:40.173] Now, I wasn't an alcoholic. [00:44:40.173 – 00:44:41.333] You know, I started serious… [00:44:41.333 – 00:44:44.313] I nibbled a little, but I started serious drinking when I was 16. [00:44:44.313 – 00:44:49.333] Had what I hope and pray was my last drink at 24. [00:44:49.333 – 00:44:54.633] And, and, and, and what happened, 16, when I got free of my… [00:44:54.633 – 00:44:58.413] Of course, my family ended lying about my age to get me in the Army so I could…

[00:44:58.413 – 00:45:00.413] All I want, I wasn't going to go fight anybody. [00:45:00.413 – 00:45:02.613] I just, I wanted out of town. [00:45:02.613 – 00:45:04.033] Man, I was tired of Mayberry. [00:45:04.033 – 00:45:05.573] I, I wanted to go somewhere. [00:45:05.573 – 00:45:09.963] And, uh, that seemed like the only way out of town. [00:45:09.963 – 00:45:14.082] So I, I blackmailed them, coerced them, and, and their mother lied about it. [00:45:14.082 – 00:45:16.393] So I got in. [00:45:16.393 – 00:45:18.653] And, uh, so I was off and running. [00:45:18.653 – 00:45:20.633] I mean, I just took off like a wild man. [00:45:20.633 – 00:45:30.653] And, uh, dri- I'm not gonna tell a whole, the, the lot of story, but, uh, I'd love to because I'm a great lover of drunkalogs.

[00:45:30.653 – 00:45:32.213] I mean, I flat love them. [00:45:32.213 – 00:45:36.033] Yeah, some people say, "Oh, I don't want to hear a drunkalog." I do. [00:45:36.033 – 00:45:39.213] I mean, we had, we had a guy speak at our group last night. [00:45:39.213 – 00:45:41.853] I mean, that was one bad drunk. [00:45:41.853 – 00:45:42.733] God knows. [00:45:42.733 – 00:45:47.993] He'd, he'd, he'd been sober 20 years, and he still looks like he was drunk yesterday. [00:45:47.993 – 00:45:48.273] I mean… [00:45:48.273 – 00:45:51.293] But I sat there, and I loved every bit into that. [00:45:51.293 – 00:45:53.653] That old boy wallowed every aisle in North Carolina.

[00:45:53.653 – 00:45:55.573] I, I loved it, you know. [00:45:55.573 – 00:45:56.873] And, and so did our bunch. [00:45:56.873 – 00:45:59.253] Man, they had one erudite professor. [00:45:59.253 – 00:46:00.773] I saw him over there just giggling. [00:46:00.773 – 00:46:00.973] They… [00:46:00.973 – 00:46:03.253] But I love drunkalogs. [00:46:03.253 – 00:46:04.873] That's where we connect, eh? [00:46:04.873 – 00:46:06.673] That's how we got started. [00:46:06.673 – 00:46:12.413] A guy named Bill met with a guy named Bob and formed a bond that became Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:46:12.413 – 00:46:13.173] And it was not… [00:46:13.173 – 00:46:16.493] Obviously, the stockbroker wasn't teaching the doc anything. [00:46:16.493 – 00:46:21.533] What he was doing was sharing the experience of an alcoholic, and that's the heart and soul.

[00:46:21.533 – 00:46:22.753] That's why I like drunkalogs. [00:46:22.753 – 00:46:25.533] I don't want to get into Philosophy 101. [00:46:25.533 – 00:46:30.832] I mean, I'll stand a little of that, but man, I want to hear somebody talk about throwing up o- once in a while. [00:46:30.832 – 00:46:31.933] That gets, uh… [00:46:31.933 – 00:46:34.173] I mean, that's where the real oomph is. [00:46:34.173 – 00:46:35.113] You know, that… [00:46:35.113 – 00:46:39.253] So anyway, that, uh, that, I've… [00:46:39.253 – 00:46:40.813] That's, that's, that's, that's who I was. [00:46:40.813 – 00:46:46.253] I'm just sort of charging along and, uh, and I, I, I'm one who believes that…

[00:46:46.253 – 00:46:50.233] Not exact by any means because I was drunk all the time. [00:46:50.233 – 00:46:55.693] But, uh, I think I crossed the line, uh, into alcoholism at, at the age of 18. [00:46:55.693 – 00:46:57.653] And I was in the military. [00:46:57.653 – 00:47:01.413] I was out in the Aleutian Islands, and, and I just drank like a pig. [00:47:01.413 – 00:47:02.612] I mean, I flat did. [00:47:02.612 – 00:47:08.293] And, and when I look back after I got sober, I could see that that's where the character of my drinking changed. [00:47:08.293 – 00:47:13.693] It was no longer celebrational kind of stuff and didn't we have a good time.

[00:47:13.693 – 00:47:17.293] You know, I started, if I took a drink, I could not predict what I would do. [00:47:17.293 – 00:47:18.873] And it… [00:47:18.873 – 00:47:20.053] And I mean about anything. [00:47:20.053 – 00:47:23.413] And, uh, and certainly if I took a drink, it was, it was all over. [00:47:23.413 – 00:47:26.373] And, and so I think that's where the real trouble started for me. [00:47:26.373 – 00:47:32.353] I was one of those guys that just, uh, when this thing hit with me, uh, I was hit good. [00:47:32.353 – 00:47:42.373] And, and I got thrown out of the military and, and, uh, was 20 years old and, uh, and then just wandered up north and wound up

[00:47:42.373 – 00:47:43.233] getting in a lot of trouble. [00:47:43.233 – 00:47:45.553] And ma- many of you are, are aware of, of my story. [00:47:45.553 – 00:47:48.613] My, my story is one that could have been yours, and I know that. [00:47:48.613 – 00:47:49.393] I know that. [00:47:49.393 – 00:47:54.393] That, um, I was a guy who had, had blackouts with great frequency. [00:47:54.393 – 00:47:59.233] Never without panic right after the consciousness. [00:47:59.233 – 00:48:00.553] Every time I would… [00:48:00.553 – 00:48:02.773] You probably, if you had blackouts, you know what I'm talking about. [00:48:02.773 – 00:48:08.573] Of coming to with that frantic, panicky feeling of where am I?

[00:48:08.573 – 00:48:10.633] You know, what have I done? [00:48:10.633 – 00:48:16.393] And if I had a car, go out and look at it, see if it's in one piece or see if there's blood on it. [00:48:16.393 – 00:48:18.713] That was the story of my life. [00:48:18.713 – 00:48:22.813] And, and, and, and so blackouts were, were something normal to me. [00:48:22.813 – 00:48:28.033] And anybody who's had blackouts is without defense. [00:48:28.033 – 00:48:37.653] If somebody come up to you and say, "Do you know what you did on such and such a date?" If you were blacked out, the best you can say is, "I wouldn't do that." Right.

[00:48:37.653 – 00:48:38.453] Uh-huh. [00:48:38.453 – 00:48:38.773] Right. [00:48:38.773 – 00:48:40.733] But that's, that's what happened. [00:48:40.733 – 00:48:50.925] And, and, and, and I, um, one night in a, in a drunken blackout, as many of you know- Uh, I did what I think is the, the, the horror, the horrible thought [00:48:50.925 – 00:48:53.235] that could happen to, to an alcoholic who drives. [00:48:53.235 – 00:48:59.785] I, I was driving down a main street and, and ran down and killed two people who were just trying to cross, cross the street. [00:48:59.785 – 00:49:03.145] And, and when I woke up the next morning, I was greeted with that.

[00:49:03.145 – 00:49:04.385] Man, I was done. [00:49:04.385 – 00:49:05.605] I mean, I was flat done. [00:49:05.605 – 00:49:09.305] I wasn't trying to figure out where can I get a lawyer, how can I get out of here. [00:49:09.305 – 00:49:10.744] I was done. [00:49:10.744 – 00:49:13.235] I was so deeply ashamed to be breathing. [00:49:13.235 – 00:49:16.125] I didn't even want, I didn't want out of jail. [00:49:16.125 – 00:49:19.285] You know, I, I was– I couldn't face anybody, for God's sake. [00:49:19.285 – 00:49:22.725] And, and, um, and I just truly wanted to be gone. [00:49:22.725 – 00:49:28.565] And, and then, um, yeah, even after that, my family got– they, they were, were told about it.

[00:49:28.565 – 00:49:38.695] They came up, got me out on bond, and, and I was convicted of, of manslaughter, of course, and, uh, and, and sentenced to five to 15 years in, in, uh, [00:49:38.695 – 00:49:40.655] in the Michigan State Penitentiary at Jackson. [00:49:40.655 – 00:49:41.725] And that's where I found AA. [00:49:41.725 – 00:49:45.165] And, and, um, and I wasn't looking for it. [00:49:45.165 – 00:49:48.205] I didn't know there was any such thing. [00:49:48.205 – 00:49:58.405] But I tell you, it's an amazing thing that, um, that it's truly amazing [00:49:58.405 – 00:49:58.625] that… [00:49:58.625 – 00:50:00.165] I mean, I'm a runaway train.

[00:50:00.165 – 00:50:02.745] I'm somebody who never gave serious thought to anything. [00:50:02.745 – 00:50:04.445] I'm, I'm just a runaway train. [00:50:04.445 – 00:50:09.145] My– If I had any real ambitions, it was to kill myself. [00:50:09.145 – 00:50:12.245] You know, I had absolutely no, no interest in continuing to live. [00:50:12.245 – 00:50:13.965] I just wanted to be out of here. [00:50:13.965 – 00:50:15.245] Tried to drink myself to death. [00:50:15.245 – 00:50:15.865] I know that. [00:50:15.865 – 00:50:17.145] There's no question whatsoever. [00:50:17.145 – 00:50:25.145] And then when I, I, I came to my senses in that penitentiary and took a look where I was, who I was, um, it was bad news.

[00:50:25.145 – 00:50:27.265] Any way I looked was bad news. [00:50:27.265 – 00:50:28.665] There was no friendly direction. [00:50:28.665 – 00:50:36.485] And, uh, when I looked back, I couldn't think of a single person who I ever associated with who didn't regret it or should have. [00:50:36.485 – 00:50:37.245] I mean, not a one. [00:50:37.245 – 00:50:46.045] Anybody that I got associated with got dirty, embarrassed, humiliated, taken advantage of, hurt, on and on. [00:50:46.045 – 00:50:49.245] And, and, and so that was who I was. [00:50:49.245 – 00:50:52.745] And it culminated with, with causing two young folks to lose their lives.

[00:50:52.745 – 00:50:58.185] And so that's what the package was when I, when I, when I, when I walked into, to that place. [00:50:58.185 – 00:51:08.265] And if anybody had ever told me that, that I would find a new way to live in there, I wouldn't have even found a way to live. [00:51:08.265 – 00:51:10.185] I mean, that was flat out. [00:51:10.185 – 00:51:20.185] My one, my one overwhelming, uh, uh, what, belief [00:51:20.185 – 00:51:23.425] was that I would never come out of there alive and didn't care. [00:51:23.425 – 00:51:25.885] I truly did not care.

[00:51:25.885 – 00:51:30.105] And, and, and amazingly enough, it turned out to be a turning point. [00:51:30.105 – 00:51:39.164] And it's, it's amazing how simple that, um, that, you know, that I'm, I'm leaning into the first step, that the, um… [00:51:39.164 – 00:51:47.705] Amazingly, a guy talked to me one day, did a social history, and that, that kind of like you always do at an intake. [00:51:47.705 – 00:51:49.445] Got through with it. [00:51:49.445 – 00:51:53.045] He said, "Man, you've had a lot of trouble with booze." And I'd never heard that. [00:51:53.045 – 00:51:57.085] I'd been called everything that had to do with alcohol in, in the English language.

[00:51:57.085 – 00:51:58.705] And but I never heard that. [00:51:58.705 – 00:52:02.985] He said, "You've had a lot of trouble with booze." And I said, "Yeah." And that was obvious. [00:52:02.985 – 00:52:13.025] And, uh, and he said, "We have an AA group here, and I think you ought to go." Now, this was back in 1960, and, and, uh, and, and, and, [00:52:13.025 – 00:52:16.785] and Alcoholics Anonymous was not well, not certainly not known at all to me. [00:52:16.785 – 00:52:17.725] I'd never heard of it. [00:52:17.725 – 00:52:19.705] I never heard of anybody helping a drunk.

[00:52:19.705 – 00:52:23.865] And when that guy made his declaration, he said, "We got an AA group here. [00:52:23.865 – 00:52:26.785] I think you ought to go." Now, that was just a casual remark. [00:52:26.785 – 00:52:30.945] It wasn't mandate or, you know, if you don't do it, we're gonna keep you here forever. [00:52:30.945 – 00:52:31.425] None of that. [00:52:31.425 – 00:52:33.205] He just made an observation. [00:52:33.205 – 00:52:34.185] "Hey, you've had a lot of trouble. [00:52:34.185 – 00:52:35.325] There's something here. [00:52:35.325 – 00:52:38.365] Uh, I think you ought to go." And that was it. [00:52:38.365 – 00:52:40.965] If I hadn't gone, would have been– there'd been no more conversation.

[00:52:40.965 – 00:52:41.745] It was over. [00:52:41.745 – 00:52:47.865] And, uh, I'd, I'd never had– I never heard anybody helping a drunk and, uh, didn't believe I was one. [00:52:47.865 – 00:52:51.745] I really thought I was a budding rocket scientist getting ready to happen. [00:52:51.745 – 00:52:56.544] If I could ever learn how to stand up, man, I'd really take on this world. [00:52:56.544 – 00:52:58.245] And, and in the meantime, I'm going right down. [00:52:58.245 – 00:53:08.525] And so I– A little later, I, I walked– I, I, I– He sent me a note and said I could go to my first meeting February 2nd of '57.

[00:53:08.525 – 00:53:11.505] And, uh, I didn't, I didn't wanna go. [00:53:11.505 – 00:53:14.585] I mean, I b- I was a guy in, in real deep isolation. [00:53:14.585 – 00:53:16.714] I didn't wanna get out and yuck it up with anybody. [00:53:16.714 – 00:53:19.845] And, uh, but he sent me that note, and I was just beat. [00:53:19.845 – 00:53:25.445] You know, one of the things– I made a little note on the plane that, uh, one of the things that's vital to me [00:53:26.381 – 00:53:30.281] In, in doing a real fif- first step is surrender. [00:53:30.281 – 00:53:32.040] It's about surrender.

[00:53:32.040 – 00:53:35.701] It's not about knowledge and logic and all of this stuff. [00:53:35.701 – 00:53:37.421] It's about surrender. [00:53:37.421 – 00:53:39.821] I am beat. [00:53:39.821 – 00:53:41.481] I am flat beat. [00:53:41.481 – 00:53:51.571] And, and, uh, I would have never believed it, but that piece of a human who came in looking like he's in a coma, what a beautiful [00:53:51.571 – 00:53:54.801] sight for a future member of AA. [00:53:54.801 – 00:53:58.161] Now, that wouldn't have been– it wouldn't have played with me at all. [00:53:58.161 – 00:53:58.701] That, um… [00:53:58.701 – 00:54:08.741] They say we're strange people at that when we go on a twelve-step call, what would be abhorrent to a regular person, would just make

[00:54:08.741 – 00:54:12.461] you wanna gag and run, makes us salivate. [00:54:12.461 – 00:54:17.421] You know, when, when we go we go ahead and see somebody just raunchy looking. [00:54:17.421 – 00:54:18.701] Yeah. [00:54:18.701 – 00:54:20.101] Let me at him. [00:54:20.101 – 00:54:20.421] I go… [00:54:20.421 – 00:54:23.551] I wa- I, I was a little excited. [00:54:23.551 – 00:54:25.070] Went in, was a hospital one night. [00:54:25.070 – 00:54:27.381] Was a guy I'd been working with got drunk. [00:54:27.381 – 00:54:31.421] Me wife called me on my anniversary and said, "He's, he's in the hospital. [00:54:31.421 – 00:54:36.941] Will you do it?" And I said, "You bet I will." My wife was gonna take me to dinner, and that's…

[00:54:36.941 – 00:54:38.501] She was gonna pay too, I think. [00:54:38.501 – 00:54:48.281] And, uh, but, uh, she said, "You're going, aren't you?" I said, "Oh yeah, I'll be back." Went over there, and that's just– this is about that salivating thing. [00:54:48.281 – 00:54:48.781] Went over there. [00:54:48.781 – 00:54:50.301] This is a nice little guy. [00:54:50.301 – 00:54:55.381] He's a Scotsman, and he came over from Scotland to play golf on the PGA Tour and did. [00:54:55.381 – 00:54:57.041] He played golf, won one tournament. [00:54:57.041 – 00:55:04.561] Then he kept hanging around nineteenth hole a little too much, and, uh, he couldn't see the hole, much less putt.

[00:55:04.561 – 00:55:06.161] But anyway, that's who he was. [00:55:06.161 – 00:55:07.681] And, and so I went in. [00:55:07.681 – 00:55:09.361] I could hear him moaning down the hall. [00:55:09.361 – 00:55:11.901] I already started salivating. [00:55:11.901 – 00:55:14.301] Hadn't even seen him, and I'm already salivating. [00:55:14.301 – 00:55:15.691] And I, I said… [00:55:15.691 – 00:55:19.081] Went on in there, and here he was in there, thought he was dying. [00:55:19.081 – 00:55:23.821] And I walked in, and I said, "Big guy, how you doing?" And then he really moaned. [00:55:23.821 – 00:55:24.920] You know, he let it out. [00:55:24.920 – 00:55:33.011] And, uh, I said, "Pretty rough, isn't it?" And he said, "Yeah, it is." And, and, uh, I said, "Let me tell you something.

[00:55:33.011 – 00:55:36.741] You don't have to believe it, but you can go to the bank on it. [00:55:36.741 – 00:55:44.441] You will never know how glad I am to see you in this condition." And then he yowled. [00:55:44.441 – 00:55:45.441] He didn't just moan. [00:55:45.441 – 00:55:46.141] He yowled. [00:55:46.141 – 00:55:52.290] He, "Oh, my God." He, uh, thought I was sadistic and, uh- And, uh, and I, I… [00:55:52.290 – 00:56:02.681] When he quit yowling, I said, "What I mean is, if you do this thing like, like, like it's supposed to be done, you never have to do this again." That's

[00:56:02.681 – 00:56:03.321] gospel. [00:56:03.321 – 00:56:04.921] That's gospel. [00:56:04.921 – 00:56:06.521] And he never did. [00:56:06.521 – 00:56:11.600] You know, you know, he got sober f– and, uh, it wasn't just the magic of those words, but those words are true. [00:56:11.600 – 00:56:21.641] If I'd have gone in there and he'd have been reading the Wall Street Journal and, and puffing a, a cigarette, I would have made a social call and said, "It's nice to see [00:56:21.641 – 00:56:21.701] you. [00:56:21.701 – 00:56:24.880] Call me when you get out." I wouldn't have tried to do anything with it.

[00:56:24.880 – 00:56:27.641] It would have been talking to somebody who wasn't home. [00:56:27.641 – 00:56:31.621] And, and so said that, and then, uh, I took him out. [00:56:31.621 – 00:56:34.001] You know, not e– I, I knew one of the people at the hospital. [00:56:34.001 – 00:56:36.881] I took him out while he was still in detox, took him to a meeting. [00:56:36.881 – 00:56:39.041] Boy, he livened up that meeting. [00:56:39.041 – 00:56:41.041] I swear, that guy looked like death warmed over. [00:56:41.041 – 00:56:42.781] Everybody looking at him. [00:56:42.781 – 00:56:43.201] Look at him. [00:56:43.201 – 00:56:44.441] Hey, look at that. [00:56:44.441 – 00:56:46.121] He carried a message.

[00:56:46.121 – 00:56:48.781] And, uh, he died ten years later. [00:56:48.781 – 00:56:51.261] Uh, was the, his, his sobriety. [00:56:51.261 – 00:57:00.701] So anyway, you know, it, it, it's not a pretty scene, you know, when it gets to it, but that thing of surrender, of knowing I am beat, for God's sakes. [00:57:00.701 – 00:57:03.281] This is not an intellectual acr- exercise. [00:57:03.281 – 00:57:07.361] It's not about ambition and achievement and attainment and education. [00:57:07.361 – 00:57:09.081] It's about giving up. [00:57:09.081 – 00:57:10.281] Man, this ain't working. [00:57:10.281 – 00:57:12.221] I need help. [00:57:12.221 – 00:57:15.941] If that doesn't happen, nothing tends to happen.

[00:57:15.941 – 00:57:17.561] It's so vital. [00:57:17.561 – 00:57:18.921] I think it's aw- awfully vital. [00:57:18.921 – 00:57:23.541] And so when I went in that group, I didn't a bit more believe I was an alcoholic than a kangaroo. [00:57:23.541 – 00:57:25.041] That, it, it, it didn't… [00:57:25.041 – 00:57:27.521] I didn't know what an alcoholic was. [00:57:27.521 – 00:57:30.281] I mean, I knew what the image was when somebody mentioned it. [00:57:30.281 – 00:57:33.081] I knew a couple of people that probably qualified for that term. [00:57:33.081 – 00:57:34.321] There was a… [00:57:34.321 – 00:57:38.761] I'd, well, anyway, I'd seen a few that I knew fit the bill.

[00:57:38.761 – 00:57:40.421] Not me. [00:57:40.421 – 00:57:43.080] Uh, but I sat down in my first meeting. [00:57:43.080 – 00:57:47.941] Never felt more out of place anywhere in my life than I did in Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:57:47.941 – 00:57:54.561] I hear a lot of people say they went into their first meeting and said, "Home at last." Not this cat. [00:57:54.561 – 00:57:59.421] I, I guarantee you, when I went in there I said, "What planet is this?" You know, that- I, I felt… [00:57:59.421 – 00:58:05.761] I'd, I have never felt more out of place anywhere and, uh, didn't really believe I was an alcoholic deep down.

[00:58:05.761 – 00:58:13.261] When I first heard people talking about alcoholism being an illness or disease, I found that a, a pretty awkward and almost embarrassing kind of thing. [00:58:13.261 – 00:58:16.421] I thought, what on earth is an illness about getting drunk? [00:58:16.421 – 00:58:17.901] And that's all I knew. [00:58:17.901 – 00:58:19.321] I, it didn't make sense. [00:58:19.321 – 00:58:29.401] But I kept going back and, uh, and the reason I went back was, uh, that thank God, the first fella I ever heard speak, I don't know what his talk was about,

[00:58:29.401 – 00:58:30.781] but I know what his message was about. [00:58:30.781 – 00:58:33.701] He was one of the most enthusiastic people I ever met in my life. [00:58:33.701 – 00:58:38.061] And I was drawn back by the enthusiasm and the spirit of that man. [00:58:38.061 – 00:58:40.161] And, and, and it started going. [00:58:40.161 – 00:58:41.981] And the, uh… [00:58:41.981 – 00:58:51.020] I went for a long time, uh, well, you know, several months, where I didn't– I truly didn't believe I was an alcoholic. [00:58:51.020 – 00:58:54.401] And like, I know what I'm saying to you, but I don't know what you're hearing.

[00:58:54.401 – 00:58:55.801] It's none of my business what you hear. [00:58:55.801 – 00:59:05.661] But when I was listening to guys, uh, tell their story, it sounded to me like they were saying they were alcoholic because when they drank, they got in trouble. [00:59:05.661 – 00:59:15.781] I went, "My God, if that's what it is, I've had that all my life." And, um, it, it took a while to, to, to understand beyond it, but thank [00:59:15.781 – 00:59:20.181] God for that because it was enough to keep me in the seat.

[00:59:20.181 – 00:59:22.821] I never missed a single meeting. [00:59:22.821 – 00:59:25.321] Certainly not because I was yearning for what this was. [00:59:25.321 – 00:59:26.341] I didn't even know what it was. [00:59:26.341 – 00:59:31.601] But somehow, I think just that identifying at that level was enough to keep me here. [00:59:31.601 – 00:59:38.365] And I tell you, there were, there were two levels to the, to, um, to, to, to First Step for me. [00:59:38.365 – 00:59:40.544] One, that wasn't really a First Step. [00:59:40.544 – 00:59:46.665] That was just a, enough of a, of a, of a connection to go back and listen some more.

[00:59:46.665 – 00:59:50.245] And, and so that was a… [00:59:50.245 – 00:59:58.865] It, it, it was a level, but I got to a point where I could say, "Well, okay, you know, I do have a problem with alcohol." But I still didn't believe the illness stuff. [00:59:58.865 – 01:00:04.585] It didn't become real for me till I got to the, uh, to the Fourth Step. [01:00:04.585 – 01:00:14.585] And, and that's where it just sunk home, where it was just like the book says that, uh, uh, you know, we, we, we learned that we

[01:00:14.585 – 01:00:16.505] had to fully concede. [01:00:16.505 – 01:00:20.145] It's in that, in that, oh, in the, in the alcoholism chapter. [01:00:20.145 – 01:00:25.405] We learned we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we're alcoholic. [01:00:25.405 – 01:00:27.785] First Step in recovery. [01:00:27.785 – 01:00:33.305] And that's exactly what happened when I did that step, that Fourth Step, and then took a look at that. [01:00:33.305 – 01:00:40.905] And my God, if you couldn't diagnose alcoholism out of that, man, you need a some, a new pair of glasses for sure. [01:00:40.905 – 01:00:47.105] And so that was where, where the s- the step sunk in, and it took a lot of listening, a lot of reading.

[01:00:47.105 – 01:00:55.125] The third chapter was enormously important to me because, uh, yeah, I don't know what, what your case was. [01:00:55.125 – 01:00:56.485] Maybe I'll know when I leave here. [01:00:56.485 – 01:01:03.305] But I listened to the stories, and I couldn't identify with them. [01:01:03.305 – 01:01:13.305] You know, because, you know, a lot of times people just tell these crazy old stories, you know, about marrying the same woman eight times, you know, and, and, you know, just, uh, just, I [01:01:13.305 – 01:01:14.665] mean, it gets wild sometimes. [01:01:14.665 – 01:01:15.265] You know, we get…

[01:01:15.265 – 01:01:18.725] Sometimes you just sort of wow, uh, make… [01:01:18.725 – 01:01:19.775] You know what I'm talking about. [01:01:19.775 – 01:01:21.865] Anyway, I couldn't identify with any of that. [01:01:21.865 – 01:01:25.085] Somebody said drunk, stayed drunk for, for 40 years around the clock. [01:01:25.085 – 01:01:25.985] I couldn't identify with that. [01:01:25.985 – 01:01:26.525] I wasn't that old. [01:01:26.525 – 01:01:29.265] And so I had a really hard time identifying. [01:01:29.265 – 01:01:37.525] And then when, when, when that, when that step came home, I knew, I knew at the core of my being that I'm alcoholic. [01:01:37.525 – 01:01:42.245] I don't mean I'm a bad drunk or a heavy drinker or a problem drinker.

[01:01:42.245 – 01:01:45.345] I knew that I'm alcoholic. [01:01:45.345 – 01:01:50.665] I'm one of those people, for whatever reason, who simply cannot handle alcohol. [01:01:50.665 – 01:01:55.705] If I take a drink, just like I said earlier, I can't, uh, I can't, uh, predict what I'll do. [01:01:55.705 – 01:01:56.845] Not at all. [01:01:56.845 – 01:02:02.125] And I knew that, and I accepted that at a cellular level. [01:02:02.125 – 01:02:04.505] That's not an intellectual thought. [01:02:04.505 – 01:02:08.405] That's, that was at a, a deep acceptance level that I… [01:02:08.405 – 01:02:09.965] That's what concede means. [01:02:09.965 – 01:02:11.045] You see? [01:02:11.045 – 01:02:12.825] I know somebody plays golf around here.

[01:02:12.825 – 01:02:14.845] You know, you concede is… [01:02:14.845 – 01:02:22.185] You see that on a golf course every once in a while, and it's a kind of a, it's a kind of a nice gesture, particularly if, if, if you're playing against a guy. [01:02:22.185 – 01:02:24.905] You know, uh, 'cause that means that he has surrendered. [01:02:24.905 – 01:02:27.165] He knows his jig's up. [01:02:27.165 – 01:02:29.725] Now, he can beat the ball all he wants to, but he's done. [01:02:29.725 – 01:02:35.425] And then to concede is a gentlemanly act of saying, "I, I'm beat.

[01:02:35.425 – 01:02:40.075] You know, I'm beat." And that's what that meant is, uh, like I told you, I'm an alcoholic. [01:02:40.075 – 01:02:41.445] That's not conceding anything. [01:02:41.445 – 01:02:43.065] That's communication. [01:02:43.065 – 01:02:44.485] That's communication. [01:02:44.485 – 01:02:45.445] Say, "You won. [01:02:45.445 – 01:02:46.025] I am too. [01:02:46.025 – 01:02:52.565] Let's talk." And, uh, but, but then I conceded to my innermost self that I am beat. [01:02:52.565 – 01:02:53.585] I am beat. [01:02:53.585 – 01:02:59.305] Not a bad drunk, not any of that junk, that I am somebody who simply cannot drink. [01:02:59.305 – 01:03:07.165] When I learned that, you know, that, that little definition, third chapter is my favorite one, that we alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control their drinking.

[01:03:07.165 – 01:03:15.585] My favorite definition of alcoholism, and I've read thousands, but that's my favorite because it gets to the heart of the matter. [01:03:15.585 – 01:03:23.125] It's not about how many times I went to jail or how many people that died because of me or how much money I lost or could have had. [01:03:23.125 – 01:03:24.325] It's not about that. [01:03:24.325 – 01:03:27.605] It's not about how many, how many times I went to jail or any of that stuff. [01:03:27.605 – 01:03:37.685] It's about being a, a man who lost the ability to control my drinking.

[01:03:37.685 – 01:03:40.765] If I take a drink, I cannot predict what I'll do. [01:03:40.765 – 01:03:41.745] That's the heart and soul. [01:03:41.745 – 01:03:45.665] When I tell you that, I have described my entire problem. [01:03:45.665 – 01:03:48.265] Everything else is circumstantial. [01:03:48.265 – 01:03:50.625] So jail is circumstantial. [01:03:50.625 – 01:03:59.145] I know decent, really nice alcoholics and bad alcoholics who've never been to jail. [01:03:59.145 – 01:04:01.625] I can't figure out where they went. [01:04:01.625 – 01:04:02.585] I, I mean, what? [01:04:02.585 – 01:04:07.435] How could you possibly be drunk and cutting up a thing and not go to jail? [01:04:07.749 – 01:04:08.369] I mean, my God.

[01:04:08.369 – 01:04:11.709] It's an awful commentary on law enforcement, I believe. [01:04:11.709 – 01:04:15.369] B- but, but anyway, there's a lot of alcoholics never go to jail. [01:04:15.369 – 01:04:19.589] Those of them who do, who do tend to be a minority. [01:04:19.589 – 01:04:21.389] They, uh… [01:04:21.389 – 01:04:24.729] We did a little survey in Charlotte years ago, long time ago. [01:04:24.729 – 01:04:25.139] Not, uh… [01:04:25.139 – 01:04:27.189] Back right af- when I first came back to North Carolina. [01:04:27.189 – 01:04:28.789] Did a little survey. [01:04:28.789 – 01:04:38.909] Just one of the questions was, it w- only had about that many questions, "Have you ever been in jail for as much as one day, one night?" 30% is all that have

[01:04:38.909 – 01:04:39.509] been in jail. [01:04:39.509 – 01:04:44.109] I thought, "What a bunch of wimps." What- What, what is this? [01:04:44.109 – 01:04:46.129] You, you, is this country club 101 or what? [01:04:46.129 – 01:04:48.489] And, uh, then… [01:04:48.489 – 01:04:55.349] Tell you, I'll tell you just one little thing that relates in a way, but that, anyway, that's not a criteria. [01:04:55.349 – 01:04:59.789] You know, I married a woman, drunk one time, that I didn't know. [01:04:59.789 – 01:05:01.448] I mean, we had not met. [01:05:01.448 – 01:05:06.269] We got, we got well-acquainted legally and, uh, uh, trying to get out of it.

[01:05:06.269 – 01:05:09.369] But, uh, but, but now that's bad stuff. [01:05:09.369 – 01:05:10.889] That's worse than going to jail. [01:05:10.889 – 01:05:12.429] Man, that's like going to purgatory. [01:05:12.429 – 01:05:15.989] P- particularly under those circumstances. [01:05:15.989 – 01:05:17.349] So I've done weird stuff. [01:05:17.349 – 01:05:18.369] Uh, uh, the, uh… [01:05:18.369 – 01:05:21.189] Uh, uh, uh, uh. [01:05:21.189 – 01:05:24.669] Yeah, but it, but it's not defined by that behavior. [01:05:24.669 – 01:05:27.889] You have decent, self-respecting alcoholic who's never been to jail. [01:05:27.889 – 01:05:31.109] It's amazing how many still got the same job. [01:05:31.109 – 01:05:34.709] Same wife. [01:05:34.709 – 01:05:37.749] Can't believe it. [01:05:37.749 – 01:05:39.569] But anyway, that's what happens. [01:05:39.569 – 01:05:48.569] You know, alcoholism is about what happens on the inside, of losing the ability to control the drinking, and it's not about the outside circus behavior.

[01:05:48.569 – 01:05:54.889] It's about dying on the inside and knowing that you're dying on the inside and helpless to do anything about it. [01:05:54.889 – 01:05:58.529] It's about looking in the mirror and wanting to gag at what you see. [01:05:58.529 – 01:06:02.269] It's about looking in there and saying, "Man, why don't you just hang it up? [01:06:02.269 – 01:06:06.449] Everybody would be better off." And you know it's true. [01:06:06.449 – 01:06:07.569] You know it's true. [01:06:07.569 – 01:06:08.569] That's alcoholism. [01:06:08.569 – 01:06:11.889] You know, it's not about all that circus behavior. [01:06:11.889 – 01:06:15.249] Those are circumstances, not alcoholism.

[01:06:15.249 – 01:06:16.989] That's just behavior, drunken behavior. [01:06:16.989 – 01:06:19.289] And, and so what I… [01:06:19.289 – 01:06:23.649] That landed deep with me wh- when I did that fourth step, and it's lasted. [01:06:23.649 – 01:06:25.169] Fifth… [01:06:25.169 – 01:06:27.969] That would've been about a year into, into, into recovery. [01:06:27.969 – 01:06:33.769] 51 years later, I have never doubted that for one second. [01:06:33.769 – 01:06:35.529] Not one second. [01:06:35.529 – 01:06:37.029] That went deep. [01:06:37.029 – 01:06:43.029] That was total, complete surrender, and I've never questioned it, not one single time. [01:06:43.029 – 01:06:47.429] I've come close to drinking many times, but I never have. [01:06:47.429 – 01:06:52.729] And, and, and, and that was, eh, that bottom line thing, I think, was fundamental to why that's so.

[01:06:52.729 – 01:06:56.569] Because what it gave me was the long view of sobriety. [01:06:56.569 – 01:06:58.329] I don't wanna be sober… [01:06:58.329 – 01:06:59.939] I mean, I do it a day at a time. [01:06:59.939 – 01:07:00.678] That's right. [01:07:00.678 – 01:07:09.649] But I wanna be sober for the rest of my life, for the rest of my life, and I know that I can do that if I'll do what this program says one day at a time. [01:07:09.649 – 01:07:10.219] I know that. [01:07:10.219 – 01:07:15.079] And I'll guarantee you, that has pulled me through some very dark periods.

[01:07:15.079 – 01:07:20.909] You know, you might have experienced it too, but I went through periods where, I mean, the whole world would just look so dark. [01:07:20.909 – 01:07:30.969] It was like going through an endless tunnel, and I'd think, "One more day of this, and man, I'm gonna have to hang it up." And then I'd always think two things that I learned that were fundamental [01:07:30.969 – 01:07:32.209] to that long-term recovery. [01:07:32.209 – 01:07:33.549] One was pray. [01:07:33.549 – 01:07:35.889] When you get right up against it, you don't know what else to do, pray.

[01:07:35.889 – 01:07:39.369] And the other thing was two words: Hang on. [01:07:39.369 – 01:07:40.729] Hang on. [01:07:40.729 – 01:07:45.949] Because every time you hang on, you may get it again, but it'll be easier the next time. [01:07:45.949 – 01:07:47.629] And that's growth. [01:07:47.629 – 01:07:48.449] You know, that's growth. [01:07:48.449 – 01:07:55.189] And so that, to me, is, is what's so fundamental about, about that, that first step, is getting to a point of complete surrender. [01:07:55.189 – 01:08:00.769] And if I don't do that, then, then I'm gonna be bargaining with everything that follows, you know, that… [01:08:00.769 – 01:08:04.849] And that's the launching pad, that surrender where, man, I am beat.

[01:08:04.849 – 01:08:06.289] I'm not here as a shopper. [01:08:06.289 – 01:08:10.169] I'm here as a guy who's going down the tube, and I don't wanna go. [01:08:10.169 – 01:08:11.749] That's what that's about. [01:08:11.749 – 01:08:19.269] And, uh, so I'll, I, I'll tell you just one other little thing here then, and on that and then it will shift the gear a little bit. [01:08:19.269 – 01:08:25.689] At the pace I'm going, we'll get p- probably to the fourth step by Tuesday. [01:08:25.689 – 01:08:34.569] No, we'll crank it up a little bit, but I believe that's important to get that foundation in, in place.

[01:08:34.569 – 01:08:37.259] But I'll tell you one, one thing that, uh… [01:08:37.259 – 01:08:38.589] And I was a junkyard dog. [01:08:38.589 – 01:08:40.119] I've, you've probably figured it out by now. [01:08:40.119 – 01:08:41.449] I really was. [01:08:41.449 – 01:08:42.529] I was a junkyard dog. [01:08:42.529 – 01:08:51.349] And I, I mean, I never did have any grudge about this, but I just had a feeling when I first started working with people and all this kind of thing. [01:08:51.349 – 01:08:55.449] And, and I'd see somebody like the guys talking about with that big, long Mercedes. [01:08:55.449 – 01:09:04.819] I'd see a guy like that and say, "You suppose he's really an alcoholic?" I mean, my God, who's gonna be driving a, a block-long Mercedes if he's an alcoholic?

[01:09:04.819 – 01:09:07.009] He's gotta be a sipper or something. [01:09:07.009 – 01:09:08.769] He- And you… [01:09:08.769 – 01:09:14.608] I mean, I never have challenged one, but I just always had that kind of an uneasy feeling that, that these people do. [01:09:14.608 – 01:09:16.549] I mean, they don't know what drinking's really about. [01:09:16.549 – 01:09:23.889] One night, I was sitting at a meeting, and there were a guy on either side of me that I knew well. [01:09:23.889 – 01:09:30.249] And they both had more money they, that they could spend in 10 lifetimes, and I knew that.

[01:09:30.249 – 01:09:40.629] And I was thinking about those guys, s- and, and I said, "What on earth brought these guys to AA?" I mean, you're talking about guys that could buy a hospital. [01:09:40.629 – 01:09:43.369] They could buy a ch- a chain of doctors. [01:09:43.369 – 01:09:45.449] They could buy anything they want. [01:09:45.449 – 01:09:52.629] And yet they're desperate enough to come in, sit down, and jeehaw with a guy like me. [01:09:52.629 – 01:09:54.909] It's a great leveler, eh? [01:09:54.909 – 01:09:56.989] Boy, did it ever change. [01:09:56.989 – 01:10:07.149] Those guys probably had to suffer differently than me, but they had to suffer probably greater than me to be able to be humble enough

[01:10:07.149 – 01:10:07.789] to walk in. [01:10:07.789 – 01:10:17.623] Cured that little little, little seed of doubt, because that's the misery of alcoholism. [01:10:17.623 – 01:10:18.633] It's not the external. [01:10:18.633 – 01:10:21.513] It's the ex– the internals that drive. [01:10:21.513 – 01:10:25.293] Well, we, uh… [01:10:25.293 – 01:10:29.033] And fundamental to that thing is sur- is surrender. [01:10:29.033 – 01:10:31.153] Anybody else wanna add anything? [01:10:31.153 – 01:10:31.913] Comment? [01:10:31.913 – 01:10:32.773] Question? [01:10:32.773 – 01:10:33.573] Preach? [01:10:33.573 – 01:10:35.013] Are you signaling? [01:10:35.013 – 01:10:37.193] Well, you gotta g- you gotta talk to Mike. [01:10:37.193 – 01:10:38.233] You got… [01:10:38.233 – 01:10:40.533] Thank you, Tom. [01:10:40.533 – 01:10:41.393] I'm Anne. [01:10:41.393 – 01:10:42.093] I'm an alcoholic. [01:10:42.093 – 01:10:43.143] Anne. [01:10:43.143 – 01:10:46.813] And I just, uh, didn't come here to share tonight, but I felt really compelled because you were sharing…

[01:10:46.813 – 01:10:54.703] You were telling my story in the beginning in what you read, because I was one of those walking dead at fifteen years sober in these rooms and not knowing what was wrong. [01:10:54.703 – 01:10:57.023] Did not have a clue what alcoholism was yet. [01:10:57.023 – 01:11:03.753] I'd been going to one to three meetings a day for years, had sponsors, did retreats, prayed, read, asked. [01:11:03.753 – 01:11:07.313] I was seeking, but seeking in all the wrong places within AA. [01:11:07.313 – 01:11:12.553] And, um, the question is: How can we reach these people that are just in and out and not getting it?

[01:11:12.553 – 01:11:22.693] Um, the hardest thing I see today is f- people that have a year, five years, ten years do not really believe that their future is my past, [01:11:22.693 – 01:11:23.933] and that what I'm– I can see it. [01:11:23.933 – 01:11:26.953] We can see it, those of us, you know, who have walked through it. [01:11:26.953 – 01:11:36.413] And the answer for that is to find people that have been walking dead who are no longer walking dead, and trust that they have experience that can help you.

[01:11:36.413 – 01:11:42.693] Um, for one, I was always committed to f- to relief, to feeling better, and I'll do anything to feel better. [01:11:42.693 – 01:11:45.772] Get a new sponsor, new home group, new this, new that. [01:11:45.772 – 01:11:48.573] Basically, it's like changing seats on the Titanic. [01:11:48.573 – 01:11:50.052] You're going down, you know? [01:11:50.052 – 01:12:00.113] And, um, so when I finally got committed to feel– to, uh, getting better versus feeling better, then and only then could I really surrender and do what it takes. [01:12:00.113 – 01:12:04.193] And I needed to find people that had been that way and who were out of it.

[01:12:04.193 – 01:12:07.393] Um, doesn't make they're well or emotionally sober or anything like that. [01:12:07.393 – 01:12:09.653] They've just found a way, and they're working on it. [01:12:09.653 – 01:12:19.653] And for me, as defiant and contrary as my mind is, I needed a lot of structure, discipline, and order in this way of life, [01:12:19.653 – 01:12:22.873] and that's the only thing that's kept me getting a little bit freer every day. [01:12:22.873 – 01:12:25.533] And, um, it's not easy. [01:12:25.533 – 01:12:28.693] And the thing is, I find most– more people are suffering. [01:12:28.693 – 01:12:30.433] They find the solution.

[01:12:30.433 – 01:12:33.473] They'll do it for a little bit, get a little relief, and then they're out of here. [01:12:33.473 – 01:12:34.553] "You can't tell me what to do. [01:12:34.553 – 01:12:35.753] This is uncomfortable. [01:12:35.753 – 01:12:38.573] I don't have to do this." And they don't wanna be accountable. [01:12:38.573 – 01:12:40.333] They don't wanna be responsible, and they die. [01:12:40.333 – 01:12:44.512] And I've been to a lot of those funerals, and I saw my own obituary. [01:12:44.512 – 01:12:49.953] That's why I think I was always crying in the rooms, 'cause I could see I was dying, but I didn't, I didn't have any hope.

[01:12:49.953 – 01:12:51.553] And the thing is, is there are… [01:12:51.553 – 01:12:54.293] If there's anybody suffering in this room, there, there is a lot of hope. [01:12:54.293 – 01:12:55.973] There are people that have found a way out. [01:12:55.973 – 01:12:58.993] And just trust them when they say, "I know where you are. [01:12:58.993 – 01:13:02.333] I've been where you are, and I, I'm not there anymore." So thank you. [01:13:02.333 – 01:13:04.253] Thank you very much. [01:13:04.253 – 01:13:05.813] Yeah, and good observations. [01:13:05.813 – 01:13:06.993] Just one second. [01:13:06.993 – 01:13:17.013] The, um, the thing that, the thing is, and, and you stated that well, like I know that I can't do everything, but I can doggone

[01:13:17.013 – 01:13:17.883] well do something. [01:13:17.883 – 01:13:21.353] And, and so I t– I try to keep it in those kind of terms, you know? [01:13:21.353 – 01:13:25.993] I, I can't do– work with the world and, and, uh, but I can take some action. [01:13:25.993 – 01:13:31.333] And, um, it's what, what I've done, I-I-I tell you one other little example. [01:13:31.333 – 01:13:32.133] A gal called me. [01:13:32.133 – 01:13:38.573] I'm sh– 'cause I'm the oldest guy around, people think you know something just 'cause you've been here a long time. [01:13:38.573 – 01:13:40.693] A-and there, there's absolutely no guarantee of that.

[01:13:40.693 – 01:13:43.853] But there's, it's worth a b– a g- a chance. [01:13:43.853 – 01:13:51.213] So a l- a gal called me about a problem in the group, and, uh, that, that, not mine, but in another group, the problem. [01:13:51.213 – 01:13:52.713] They said, "Somebody said call Tom. [01:13:52.713 – 01:13:54.773] Uh, he may know about it." So she called me. [01:13:54.773 – 01:13:55.452] We dealt with that. [01:13:55.452 – 01:14:00.673] And then in the course of what she was t-saying about it, the problem was fairly simple. [01:14:00.673 – 01:14:04.153] But what she was talking about was not simple.

[01:14:04.153 – 01:14:14.173] And she said, uh, "Isn't," said, "Isn't this about not drinking?" No, it's, [01:14:14.173 – 01:14:17.653] uh, not about not drinking and enjoying the fellowship. [01:14:17.653 – 01:14:23.953] I said, "Well, if you wanna play penny poker, that's what it's about. [01:14:23.953 – 01:14:33.513] But it, but if you think that's what it is, you're gonna really have some problems to deal with, because it's exactly what produces that kind of thing." And I said, "No, that's not, not, not what it's about. [01:14:33.513 – 01:14:37.433] You know, if you wanna talk about that sometime, I'll be glad to talk with you.

[01:14:37.433 – 01:14:47.513] Because if you think the program of recovery is about not drinking and hanging out, you got a lotta, lotta, uh, bumps ahead." And so I, I, I mean, that's a, that's one [01:14:47.513 – 01:14:48.753] little thing with one person- [01:14:50.317 – 01:14:57.137] When I first started really getting concerned about how to deal with this thing, I was looking. [01:14:57.137 – 01:15:03.177] Now, ever since I've been in AA, and you know, in, in doing any of the leader type work, I've been taking people through the book.

[01:15:03.177 – 01:15:04.537] I've done it every way you can think of. [01:15:04.537 – 01:15:08.357] Marine Corps style, march them through, do it or die, you know, and all this kind of stuff. [01:15:08.357 – 01:15:13.917] And, uh, and a buddy of mine was doing it a way, and I had him explain to me how he did it, and oh, it was very simple. [01:15:13.917 – 01:15:16.117] All he did was just, uh… [01:15:16.117 – 01:15:20.757] And I told him, I said, "Don't give me a bunch of words." And we just sat down with some guys at a conference.

[01:15:20.757 – 01:15:24.657] We're in a hallway and I said, "Show me what you're talking about." Well, it's simple. [01:15:24.657 – 01:15:32.557] I mean, you just read the book, read a line, and then the question is always, do you identify or relate? [01:15:32.557 – 01:15:35.117] Never, what do you think? [01:15:35.117 – 01:15:38.077] I mean, that one does not make the table. [01:15:38.077 – 01:15:40.036] You know, you, what you think does not count. [01:15:40.036 – 01:15:43.717] And so it's, it's, it's, it's do you– 'cause that's what the book's about. [01:15:43.717 – 01:15:45.337] It's not to teach you something.

[01:15:45.337 – 01:15:48.197] It's about relating to the story of recovery. [01:15:48.197 – 01:15:49.417] That's what the book is. [01:15:49.417 – 01:15:50.337] You know? [01:15:50.337 – 01:15:56.677] And, um, so, so that, that told me something, and I said, "Well, shoot, I'm gonna try that." I mean, I'd never been to one. [01:15:56.677 – 01:15:58.517] This was a pretty good while back. [01:15:58.517 – 01:15:59.817] I said, "Well, that's the shoot. [01:15:59.817 – 01:16:07.097] I think I'm gonna try that because it's worth a try." I took a group of people through it, and I just told people I sponsor. [01:16:07.097 – 01:16:08.607] I said, "If you wanna do this thing, we'll do it.

[01:16:08.607 – 01:16:10.377] If you wanna bring somebody, do it. [01:16:10.377 – 01:16:11.807] And then when we start, that's it. [01:16:11.807 – 01:16:17.797] Nobody else come in." And so we, uh, we did it, and I had to gain probably 20 people or something like that. [01:16:17.797 – 01:16:20.577] It was, it was way too big I know now. [01:16:20.577 – 01:16:23.617] But we went through it, and when we got through… [01:16:23.617 – 01:16:29.877] Now what we did, I mean, it, it took a long time, and it's hard for me to nail down one place to be every week, but I did.

[01:16:29.877 – 01:16:33.017] And for, for about close to a year getting through that thing. [01:16:33.017 – 01:16:38.597] And when we got through, we had 15 people who had fi-fi-finished the whole deal. [01:16:38.597 – 01:16:42.337] It's like the fifth chapter said, half measure melts, m-measure develops nothing. [01:16:42.337 – 01:16:45.237] That's the same with big book workshops. [01:16:45.237 – 01:16:47.337] Half measures get you nothing. [01:16:47.337 – 01:16:54.277] But of the people who finished every session, and it's been a good many years ago, all of them are still sober. [01:16:54.277 – 01:17:00.037] And so you, and when you, when you start thinking about effectiveness, you know, it is such a global problem.

[01:17:00.037 – 01:17:03.317] My God, that, it w- California was rampant with that. [01:17:03.317 – 01:17:08.237] Just, uh, they've got good stuff going there, but they got some real weird stuff going there too. [01:17:08.237 – 01:17:09.557] Um, not just kissing me. [01:17:09.557 – 01:17:10.637] They got some bad stuff. [01:17:10.637 – 01:17:14.017] That… [01:17:14.017 – 01:17:16.197] But anyway, that, that's what I like to do. [01:17:16.197 – 01:17:21.717] When I see a problem, I never choose sides and try to figure out what's wrong. [01:17:21.717 – 01:17:25.277] When I see a problem, my instinct is, what can we do about that? [01:17:25.277 – 01:17:26.297] What we do?

[01:17:26.297 – 01:17:27.317] 'Cause that's what I wanna do. [01:17:27.317 – 01:17:32.497] You know, I'm the oldest rat in the barn, and if you can't– in North Carolina not in Florida. [01:17:32.497 – 01:17:36.177] But if you can't give leadership, what are you here for? [01:17:36.177 – 01:17:41.257] And, and, and, and so I wanna try to, try to look at, at how do you solve these kind of things. [01:17:41.257 – 01:17:43.777] It's like stumbling on that thing about William J. [01:17:43.777 – 01:17:45.117] with these guys shooting themselves. [01:17:45.117 – 01:17:47.136] I don't like people shooting themselves. [01:17:47.136 – 01:17:50.617] And, uh, and so, you know, giving a little s-seed like it.

[01:17:50.617 – 01:17:56.437] So that's what I like to do is, is look and think solution and, and, you know, not just commiserate, you know? [01:17:56.437 – 01:17:57.977] But, but thank you, love. [01:17:57.977 – 01:18:00.997] Thank you, Tom. [01:18:00.997 – 01:18:03.337] My name is Woody, and I'm an alcoholic. [01:18:03.337 – 01:18:04.867] Hey, Woody. [01:18:04.867 – 01:18:08.957] Um, alcoholism is alive and well around Atlanta. [01:18:08.957 – 01:18:18.997] Out of the groups that I go around to, there's a lot of treatment center people, a lot [01:18:18.997 – 01:18:21.297] of early sobriety. [01:18:21.297 – 01:18:31.337] Out of the last 15 months, we have lost 21 either through

[01:18:31.337 – 01:18:37.117] overdose, alcoholic poisoning, or suicide. [01:18:37.117 – 01:18:46.297] Two of those people were sponsees of mine. [01:18:46.297 – 01:18:52.537] And I guarantee you it'll rattle your foundation. [01:18:52.537 – 01:19:04.657] One of the guys I had through an eighth step, his mom found him in the basement with a needle stuck in his arm and, and the autopsy [01:19:04.657 – 01:19:14.937] showed that he had enough heroin in his body that the doctor said that even if he were an occasional user, he knew what he was putting into his body was killing

[01:19:14.937 – 01:19:15.117] him. [01:19:15.117 – 01:19:16.397] He left no note. [01:19:16.397 – 01:19:19.217] Still working with his mom. [01:19:19.217 – 01:19:20.957] She's in Al-Anon now. [01:19:20.957 – 01:19:30.077] But I need to know, at 17 years, I got unplugged. [01:19:30.077 – 01:19:39.237] I sat down on that laurel, went through a very major emotional upheaval in my life. [01:19:39.237 – 01:19:41.657] I unplugged. [01:19:41.657 – 01:19:51.697] I got rid of sponsees, quit going to meetings, and I got so [01:19:51.697 – 01:19:56.377] dry, spiritually sick, that I was a fire hazard. [01:19:56.377 – 01:19:59.857] And did not drink. [01:19:59.857 – 01:20:05.357] But I had enough courage to go… [01:20:05.357 – 01:20:11.517] I tried to f- go find the AA, and I got into these misery traps.

[01:20:11.517 – 01:20:15.897] I got into group therapy sessions instead of AA. [01:20:15.897 – 01:20:25.417] They wanted to sit there and talk about who ate the bologna sandwich out of the refrigerator, my roommate's not making up their bed. [01:20:25.417 – 01:20:33.497] And I was dying in over 17 years of sobriety. [01:20:33.497 – 01:20:40.157] Thank God for the internet because I found some guys out in Texas, a primary purpose group. [01:20:40.157 – 01:20:43.517] And I love you bringing it up. [01:20:43.517 – 01:20:53.037] I got in touch with them, and they suggested I give a guy up around the Atlanta area a call, and I got back, hooked back up with AA meetings.

[01:20:53.037 – 01:21:02.525] But do you remember when s- Mother Teresa was talking about praying to God and not feeling the presence of the Spirit? [01:21:02.525 – 01:21:06.265] I was there. [01:21:06.265 – 01:21:08.325] I was there. [01:21:08.325 – 01:21:18.445] And I brought it up to a friend of mine up in Atlanta that had forty-one years of sobriety at that time, and he said, "Woody, let me give you t- word, two words, [01:21:18.445 – 01:21:28.965] and that's spiritual wasteland." I said, "Boy, you've just nailed me." Now, what I'm interested in here [01:21:28.965 – 01:21:39.005] is if you look at seventy-nine and eighty in the twelve and twelve, it talks about some of these things that we have warped our minds over that we thought were minor

[01:21:39.005 – 01:21:39.725] at the time. [01:21:39.725 – 01:21:42.505] They go down into the subconscious level. [01:21:42.505 – 01:21:52.845] Some of these have been coming up in me since the last time I was down here, by the way, and that was since October. [01:21:52.845 – 01:21:57.105] What a phenomenal spiritual growth it has been for me. [01:21:57.105 – 01:22:05.965] I'm learning how I'm talking to myself up here, and I'm still growing. [01:22:05.965 – 01:22:16.185] And yeah, I wanna take away something that I can help others with because this business [01:22:16.185 – 01:22:22.505] of, of, of watching guys and coming in, and I can share my experience, strength, and hope with them.

[01:22:22.505 – 01:22:32.565] One of the things that I've started doing is on page fifty-two when it talks about that, that definition of, of being a dry drunk [01:22:32.565 – 01:22:34.245] and that unmanageability. [01:22:34.245 – 01:22:36.645] Take a look at it. [01:22:36.645 – 01:22:41.125] Have them write that down, and I write it down now. [01:22:41.125 – 01:22:43.385] My current unmanageability. [01:22:43.385 – 01:22:45.065] Read a sentence, write about it. [01:22:45.065 – 01:22:48.965] And when they give it to me, I said, "Okay, change the title. [01:22:48.965 – 01:22:59.105] Change the title of that to my current agnosticism," because what's [01:22:59.105 – 01:23:09.105] going on up here is that I'm not accepting that my God is big enough to take care of what's going on right now, and I'm, I'm, I'm making a slip in here

[01:23:09.105 – 01:23:09.525] somewhere. [01:23:09.525 – 01:23:13.405] Is that emotional toughness? [01:23:13.405 – 01:23:14.245] I don't know. [01:23:14.245 – 01:23:23.045] But I am n- I'm, I'm here to learn, and I'm glad you're here, and thank you for that. [01:23:23.045 – 01:23:24.445] Thank you very much. [01:23:24.445 – 01:23:27.504] I'm glad that you're still here and didn't, didn't, didn't leave. [01:23:27.504 – 01:23:31.965] That, um, that is, it's a huge dilemma. [01:23:31.965 – 01:23:32.845] It's a huge dilemma. [01:23:32.845 – 01:23:42.725] That, um, s- it sound like too much self power, not enough higher power, you know, that, but that's, that's kind of an, the easy, soft way to say that.

[01:23:42.725 – 01:23:43.345] But that… [01:23:43.345 – 01:23:50.045] This, what I've found is that this thing lasts as long as I do it and not one more second. [01:23:50.045 – 01:23:55.185] The minute I stop doing it, I don't get into j- just, just cruise control. [01:23:55.185 – 01:23:57.525] I start going down. [01:23:57.525 – 01:23:58.065] Yeah. [01:23:58.065 – 01:23:59.185] And it j-j… [01:23:59.185 – 01:24:00.785] I think we'll look at it sometime. [01:24:00.785 – 01:24:03.905] You think we'll take a little break and go s- to stare at the moon or something. [01:24:03.905 – 01:24:07.065] But that, it's, uh, it's a lot of, uh, uh… [01:24:07.065 – 01:24:11.805] That this thing's good as long as I do it, and it stops the minute I quit.

[01:24:11.805 – 01:24:14.295] And so I think that's a big part of it. [01:24:14.295 – 01:24:15.385] I, I'll tell you one other thing. [01:24:15.385 – 01:24:16.305] We'll get to it. [01:24:16.305 – 01:24:17.715] But I, I… [01:24:17.715 – 01:24:19.925] For me, there's been a… [01:24:19.925 – 01:24:30.085] When I'm t- when I'm working with somebody, taking them through the, the book or through the steps or something, when I lose them, it's almost invariably at the point [01:24:30.085 – 01:24:30.965] of six and seven. [01:24:30.965 – 01:24:32.425] Yeah. [01:24:32.425 – 01:24:33.745] It's just when they t-t… [01:24:33.745 – 01:24:33.985] Yeah. [01:24:33.985 – 01:24:35.225] Yeah. [01:24:35.225 – 01:24:36.205] I s- I spent a… [01:24:36.205 – 01:24:40.485] I, I've got a sponsorship bunch in, uh, lined of folk in North Carolina.

[01:24:40.485 – 01:24:50.485] We meet, uh, once or twice a year, and, and what all our– all we're doing is just how can we grow personally and how can we be more effective in our work, and that's [01:24:50.485 – 01:24:51.525] what we meet about. [01:24:51.525 – 01:24:54.265] We spend a half a day on six and seven. [01:24:54.265 – 01:24:54.905] Yes. [01:24:54.905 – 01:25:00.485] And it's what a vi-vital place because when you first read them, it sound like pabulum. [01:25:00.485 – 01:25:04.165] You know, these are just, "Why don't we rehash two and three?" Not so.

[01:25:04.165 – 01:25:06.265] You know, that's a definitive point. [01:25:06.265 – 01:25:15.085] And, and, and what, what I see happening, and it sound maybe some of the guys you were talking about, that what I see happening is that people get to that point, and you… [01:25:15.085 – 01:25:17.045] And, and up to this point, it's all been about me. [01:25:17.045 – 01:25:21.805] It's all about, you know, me and my feelings and my stuff and all of this. [01:25:21.805 – 01:25:30.025] And now, all at once, it says, "You wanna get well or don't you?" You shucking and jiving or what?

[01:25:30.759 – 01:25:30.959] Yeah. [01:25:30.959 – 01:25:33.919] And, uh, and, and it, it's very real. [01:25:33.919 – 01:25:39.899] And a lot of times, I think what happens with my folk and, and the ones I've chased down, it, it is. [01:25:39.899 – 01:25:42.259] They look at it a-and they don't wanna pay the dues. [01:25:42.259 – 01:25:45.079] You know, when they start looking at what's gonna be required. [01:25:45.079 – 01:25:51.099] You start try making amends to, to all the people, places, things you've harmed, that's scary. [01:25:51.099 – 01:25:52.859] That is really scary. [01:25:52.859 – 01:25:55.019] And so a lot of people will bum out.

[01:25:55.019 – 01:25:56.819] That's where I lose most of them too. [01:25:56.819 – 01:26:06.959] What I did not tell you was that the individual that I went to asked me, he said, "Well, what do you– do you need [01:26:06.959 – 01:26:12.579] help getting out of this wasteland?" And I said, "Absolutely." He said, "Guess what? [01:26:12.579 – 01:26:20.739] Let's start over." These 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous are designed to give you a spiritual awakening. [01:26:20.739 – 01:26:28.319] I'm a living example of that you can be brought back from the gates of hell twice.

[01:26:28.319 – 01:26:36.739] That those steps had a spiritual awakening, a wonderful spiritual experience for me. [01:26:36.739 – 01:26:40.839] I have found a new enthusiasm for AA. [01:26:40.839 – 01:26:44.679] I got back involved with my sponsees. [01:26:44.679 – 01:26:50.599] I got back involved with AA, and I have found that I absolutely love this fellowship. [01:26:50.599 – 01:26:54.499] So I wanted to add that, too, and thank you. [01:26:54.499 – 01:26:55.319] Bless your heart. [01:26:55.319 – 01:26:56.379] Yeah. [01:26:56.379 – 01:27:05.039] You know, the other thing that on, on s- on solving this stuff, well, you know, they, there's a little place in 12 and 12 where that I think really describes the steps well.

[01:27:05.039 – 01:27:07.099] I don't mechanically work steps. [01:27:07.099 – 01:27:10.519] I, I, and I pretty mechanically work traditions. [01:27:10.519 – 01:27:20.539] I probably by, by identification, I probably use tradition more than steps because they're about how to live in unity and how to take the leadership when it comes to [01:27:20.539 – 01:27:21.139] you and all that. [01:27:21.139 – 01:27:31.189] But that little play in the, in the preface to the 12 and 12, uh, that didn't see it for many years, says that, uh, our steps are set up pr- [01:27:31.189 – 01:27:41.219] a group of principles spiritual in their nature, which if practiced as a way of life, it will expel the obsession to drink and enable the

[01:27:41.219 – 01:27:42.819] sufferer to become happily, usually whole. [01:27:42.819 – 01:27:45.079] And, and to me, that's, that's what it says. [01:27:45.079 – 01:27:46.259] It's a complete package. [01:27:46.259 – 01:27:48.259] You know, it, it's not just a, a bunch of stuff. [01:27:48.259 – 01:27:50.938] But if I pra– that's how I live. [01:27:50.938 – 01:27:52.419] You know, that, that's what I do. [01:27:52.419 – 01:27:56.179] And it absolutely drives and guides everything I do. [01:27:56.179 – 01:28:03.579] And we'll– when we get in back into, into some of those steps about triggering that kind of thing, we'll get into that some more, but that's vital stuff, you know.

[01:28:03.579 – 01:28:13.679] And, and, uh, the, the other thing, you know, like that I can do, what I've done for the past thirty some years probably, I've, [01:28:13.679 – 01:28:16.959] I've, I've moved a few times, you know, just my career would just move me around. [01:28:16.959 – 01:28:20.079] And I have never gone to a town. [01:28:20.079 – 01:28:22.579] I swear to God, I honestly don't believe it's self-will. [01:28:22.579 – 01:28:27.499] Now, it is a personal commitment to, to some pr-principles I believe in. [01:28:27.499 – 01:28:32.099] But every time I've gone to a town, I wanna find a group.

[01:28:32.099 – 01:28:39.699] And it's a futile effort in every town I've moved to b-because so many of them are just chatty meetings. [01:28:39.699 – 01:28:46.079] And, uh, and, and if a meeting is gonna spend all this time talking about me, I'm not gonna stay there very long. [01:28:46.079 – 01:28:49.519] And, and 'cause this program is about far more, you know. [01:28:49.519 – 01:28:56.699] So what I've had to do for perhaps thirty something years, every town I've moved into, I've had to start a new group. [01:28:56.699 – 01:28:58.879] And it ain't no big deal.

[01:28:58.879 – 01:29:00.639] No big deal. [01:29:00.639 – 01:29:01.569] Uh, it… [01:29:01.569 – 01:29:04.419] You'd say resentment, a coffee pot, that doesn't even enter the picture. [01:29:04.419 – 01:29:08.859] You know, what I try to find is some people who are just hungry and not getting what they need. [01:29:08.859 – 01:29:11.039] And then what we do is build a group. [01:29:11.039 – 01:29:13.659] And that's great, great experience. [01:29:13.659 – 01:29:18.119] And to me, that is far more than I can do as an individual. [01:29:18.119 – 01:29:26.559] You know, if I can build a group and then work with other people, I can multiply my value by working with other people and getting them involved.

[01:29:26.559 – 01:29:34.779] And, um, tell you, well, well, I'll just throw this in right now because it, it is something to, something about it. [01:29:34.779 – 01:29:41.879] The, uh, the last one I started was a bunch– that bunch I was talking about taking through the book and, and fifteen of them still sober. [01:29:41.879 – 01:29:46.819] The fifteen who completed it all are still sober. [01:29:46.819 – 01:29:50.399] And when– they got all pumped up with that. [01:29:50.399 – 01:29:51.009] You know, with that. [01:29:51.009 – 01:29:51.839] Well, I did too. [01:29:51.839 – 01:29:54.419] But, I mean, they really got charged up.

[01:29:54.419 – 01:29:58.969] They started bumming around with me and telling me they wanted to start a group. [01:29:58.969 – 01:29:59.699] I said, "Well, fine. [01:29:59.699 – 01:30:00.099] Go ahead. [01:30:00.099 – 01:30:01.289] Your engines are firing. [01:30:01.289 – 01:30:07.079] Go start one." They said, "Yeah, but we want you to come." I said, "No, man, I'm the founder of the group I'm in. [01:30:07.079 – 01:30:11.159] I can't go jumping ship." And they, and, uh, they– but they were adamant. [01:30:11.159 – 01:30:19.199] They said, "No, we, we feel like we need some leadership and, and, uh, we want you to join us." And, uh, and I thought, "My God, I've got these guys all pumped up.

[01:30:19.199 – 01:30:21.519] Want it again?" Merry Christmas. [01:30:21.519 – 01:30:21.899] You want? [01:30:21.899 – 01:30:22.639] Yeah. [01:30:22.639 – 01:30:23.159] What the hell? [01:30:23.159 – 01:30:25.819] All right. [01:30:25.819 – 01:30:27.159] Thank you very, very much. [01:30:27.159 – 01:30:28.539] That's a brilliant thing. [01:30:28.539 – 01:30:29.519] I've still got a little bit. [01:30:29.519 – 01:30:29.799] Thanks. [01:30:29.799 – 01:30:31.239] That is great. [01:30:31.239 – 01:30:33.279] Y'all watching us now. [01:30:33.279 – 01:30:34.659] We may have something going here. [01:30:34.659 – 01:30:44.779] But the, and the guys, they, they had one woman and nine men, and they said, "Yeah, we wanna do it." And I said, "All right, we'll [01:30:44.779 – 01:30:47.299] do it." And so I, I said goodbye to the other group.

[01:30:47.299 – 01:30:47.859] They were fine. [01:30:47.859 – 01:30:49.679] They'd found a niche, and they, they were fine. [01:30:49.679 – 01:30:53.159] So I got these folks together, and that's how simple it is. [01:30:53.159 – 01:30:54.719] Nobody's mad at anybody. [01:30:54.719 – 01:30:56.839] What we were was hungry. [01:30:56.839 – 01:31:01.279] And, and the guys had got all pumped up, all charged up, and nowhere to go. [01:31:01.279 – 01:31:05.239] And, uh, so we did the meeting. [01:31:05.239 – 01:31:07.279] And now I'm a brainstorming guy. [01:31:07.279 – 01:31:11.859] You know, I'm not somebody who wants to just stare at my navel and meditate for nine years.

[01:31:11.859 – 01:31:13.659] I wanna get it on, you know. [01:31:13.659 – 01:31:16.059] And so I like, I like brainstorming. [01:31:16.059 – 01:31:16.719] Two reasons. [01:31:16.719 – 01:31:18.939] One, my best thought is my first thought. [01:31:18.939 – 01:31:23.899] My first thought's always the best I get, and if I start thinking about it, I'll screw it up. [01:31:23.899 – 01:31:24.548] You know? [01:31:24.548 – 01:31:30.859] And so I like brainstorming where you just move, and all it means is that you put something on the wall, it stays there. [01:31:30.859 – 01:31:34.399] No discussion, no explanation, no salesmanship. [01:31:34.399 – 01:31:35.399] Name it and claim it.

[01:31:35.399 – 01:31:36.079] It's on the wall. [01:31:36.079 – 01:31:45.995] In 12 minutes, we named 19 things, and what I asked them to do was think about something you would insist on having in a new group if we start one. [01:31:45.995 – 01:31:48.695] And so 19 things in 12 minutes. [01:31:48.695 – 01:31:52.295] Those things are still functional in our group. [01:31:52.295 – 01:31:56.015] And what they did was, I mean, setting up a group was a snap. [01:31:56.015 – 01:31:58.915] All we had to do was form a group to do what we said we're looking for.

[01:31:58.915 – 01:32:03.235] And so we didn't have to worry around for sexy topics that's gonna attract people. [01:32:03.235 – 01:32:06.655] Yeah, we got, we, uh, we got a group. [01:32:06.655 – 01:32:10.895] And, uh, so we, uh, how you gonna get the action? [01:32:10.895 – 01:32:19.095] We conceptually set up every service that's done in Alcoholics Anonymous is done in my home group. [01:32:19.095 – 01:32:24.655] We have service committees, just like the area d-does and the, and the, and the national does. [01:32:24.655 – 01:32:30.475] We have, uh, we have corrections and hospital and treatment and PI and CPC.

[01:32:30.475 – 01:32:32.755] Everything we do in AA, we do in my group. [01:32:32.755 – 01:32:35.475] If you want action, you gotta put the vehicle for action. [01:32:35.475 – 01:32:39.235] And the typical stuff, you know, the GSR sec, set up a new… [01:32:39.235 – 01:32:40.995] We hadn't even had a meeting, had a newsletter. [01:32:40.995 – 01:32:44.035] Didn't have any news, but we had a newsletter. [01:32:44.035 – 01:32:49.425] So, and, uh, set up a newcomer group, and all desired, you know. [01:32:49.425 – 01:32:54.535] We got through the, uh, we had, we, we had 10 things on the board.

[01:32:54.535 – 01:33:01.895] And somebody said, "My God, Tom, where are we gonna get folks to f- to fill these positions?" I said, "It's not a problem. [01:33:01.895 – 01:33:03.155] I've done a little nose counting. [01:33:03.155 – 01:33:08.055] They're full." "What are you talking about?" I said, "Well, there's 10 of us, 10 of them. [01:33:08.055 – 01:33:12.275] Get one." So we were in business, you know. [01:33:12.275 – 01:33:14.635] And, uh, so we were off and running. [01:33:14.635 – 01:33:21.355] We, without a single announcement of any type, we had 41 people at our first meeting.

[01:33:21.355 – 01:33:23.095] And we weren't trying to get a crowd. [01:33:23.095 – 01:33:26.395] We wanted to get a, a, a, a, a launching pad for energy. [01:33:26.395 – 01:33:28.195] And but here they came. [01:33:28.195 – 01:33:38.195] Had a newcomer group, and the guy came to me one night and he said, "Tom, we don't have any newcomers in this group." I said, "You know, I've noticed that." He said, "What do you [01:33:38.195 – 01:33:44.555] think we ought to do?" I said, "Tell you what, why don't you start a newcomers group?" He said, "Didn't you hear what I said?

[01:33:44.555 – 01:33:47.375] We don't have any newcomers." I said, "Yeah, I heard that. [01:33:47.375 – 01:33:50.635] Start one." He said, "That's stupid." I said, "Well, do it anyway. [01:33:50.635 – 01:33:55.984] Do it anyway." So he started it, and we had over 40 newcomers the first meeting with. [01:33:55.984 – 01:34:01.095] 'Cause if there's anything folks in Atlanta, I guarantee you could put 1,000 in one if you announce a newcomer meeting. [01:34:01.095 – 01:34:03.435] Everybody captures drunks anywhere. [01:34:03.435 – 01:34:05.735] If they hear a newcomer meet, load the bus. [01:34:05.735 – 01:34:06.255] Here we go. [01:34:06.255 – 01:34:08.595] And so we, we had a ton of people.

[01:34:08.595 – 01:34:15.655] And, uh, but anyway, that, I mean, to, to me, this is a, a contribution, a real contribution. [01:34:15.655 – 01:34:18.795] We're 12 years so in, in, in operation now. [01:34:18.795 – 01:34:22.595] Uh, we've never had a really bad meeting. [01:34:22.595 – 01:34:25.255] And we've had some that were trying hard to be. [01:34:25.255 – 01:34:31.275] But, but, but, but when, when you got a group, you, you got the backup, you got your resources. [01:34:31.275 – 01:34:35.475] Somebody, every once in a while, our folks is laying in bed and they forget their chariot or something.

[01:34:35.475 – 01:34:39.935] But that's no big deal in a group because you automatically, you gonna step forward. [01:34:39.935 – 01:34:41.635] You know, so no big deal. [01:34:41.635 – 01:34:42.955] Sorry you missed a meeting. [01:34:42.955 – 01:34:43.455] You know, that's… [01:34:43.455 – 01:34:48.755] But it, it, that's, uh, that thing, I don't know if– I might have brought a copy of those goals. [01:34:48.755 – 01:34:50.115] We call them goals. [01:34:50.115 – 01:34:52.775] And so that's what we want that group to be. [01:34:52.775 – 01:34:57.095] Like one of the things was, uh, just, just one example was a speaker. [01:34:57.095 – 01:34:59.035] We want an open speaker meeting every week.

[01:34:59.035 – 01:35:01.975] And we want diversity in speakers. [01:35:01.975 – 01:35:03.715] We want every color. [01:35:03.715 – 01:35:05.075] We had a Spanish guy speak. [01:35:05.075 – 01:35:06.835] Spoke barely any English. [01:35:06.835 – 01:35:10.055] Boy, I, I had to use all my bar room skills to understand it. [01:35:10.055 – 01:35:11.235] But he was there, man. [01:35:11.235 – 01:35:12.005] He stood and talked. [01:35:12.005 – 01:35:16.435] And, uh, we wanted m-m-men, women, gay, straight. [01:35:16.435 – 01:35:17.335] We don't care what they are. [01:35:17.335 – 01:35:18.715] We want it to look like America. [01:35:18.715 – 01:35:20.275] And, uh, ugly. [01:35:20.275 – 01:35:20.635] I mean, we… [01:35:20.635 – 01:35:22.435] But that boy spoke last night. [01:35:22.435 – 01:35:26.715] God knows we didn't put ugly on there, but he absolutely satisfied that.

[01:35:26.715 – 01:35:31.455] And, but, but you see what I'm talking about. [01:35:31.455 – 01:35:33.335] It's, it's what a contribution, eh? [01:35:33.335 – 01:35:37.855] Right now, and we're not, we're not really trying to push people around. [01:35:37.855 – 01:35:38.615] We're active. [01:35:38.615 – 01:35:39.895] We dominate the district. [01:35:39.895 – 01:35:46.315] We have to block vote to keep from having the DCM from our group every time because we're the energy. [01:35:46.315 – 01:35:47.315] We're the energy people. [01:35:47.315 – 01:35:48.495] We're the action people. [01:35:48.495 – 01:35:53.135] And so we have to c-calculate, block vote to get, get other people in the, in the action.

[01:35:53.135 – 01:36:01.855] And, uh, the, the thing that's really pleasing to me is that, you know, each group's autonomous. [01:36:01.855 – 01:36:02.875] They can function like they want to. [01:36:02.875 – 01:36:06.915] If they wanna have some, some smoke and joke thing, fine, just don't invite me. [01:36:06.915 – 01:36:08.475] You know, y'all have fun. [01:36:08.475 – 01:36:11.305] But it, it, it, what's happened [01:36:11.427 – 01:36:17.907] And without us going around trying to brainwash people, people have seen what's happening. [01:36:17.907 – 01:36:26.107] And so we've got people in other groups now who will come over to our group and say, "Hey, show us how to get involved in this stuff." And so we got about…

[01:36:26.107 – 01:36:30.127] My God, we got more, more people going into the prison than we got in the prison now. [01:36:30.127 – 01:36:30.367] We got… [01:36:30.367 – 01:36:40.407] So it's, it's a, it, it's a thing that's just, to me, when you st- you start looking at how do you deal with this stuff, you gotta do it programmatic because you, you're [01:36:40.407 – 01:36:41.967] not gonna do it one, one drunk at a… [01:36:41.967 – 01:36:46.907] I mean, we'll do it one drunk at a time, but you gotta have a program that supports the action.

[01:36:46.907 – 01:36:53.507] You know, the way I look at it, my home group is what I depend on, on to deliver, to deliver what I promise. [01:36:53.507 – 01:37:00.907] And when I meet with an alcoholic and I tell him that we're a welcoming group of people, and he'll be at home, he'll find something to do there. [01:37:00.907 – 01:37:03.687] My group, I'm counting on my group to deliver. [01:37:03.687 – 01:37:10.987] And so I, I think that's a kind of a w- w- wide-ranging response, but it's not just what I can do heroically.

[01:37:10.987 – 01:37:11.967] I can do some of that. [01:37:11.967 – 01:37:14.127] But if I really wanna be… [01:37:14.127 – 01:37:24.707] It's kind of like it says in the latter part of the book, our real purpose is to be of maxim, of s- maximum service to God and those around us, to improve [01:37:24.707 – 01:37:26.847] in, in understanding and effectiveness. [01:37:26.847 – 01:37:29.407] You know, and, and so to me, that's what triggers that. [01:37:29.407 – 01:37:33.747] And so when I see the problem, you know, I, I'm not gonna moan and groan and choose sides.

[01:37:33.747 – 01:37:37.607] My first instinct is, can I contribute? [01:37:37.607 – 01:37:39.827] I don't care if I'm visiting somebody else's group. [01:37:39.827 – 01:37:41.927] I'm gonna try to make it a better group while I'm there. [01:37:41.927 – 01:37:46.927] And, uh, I would do one more, and we'll quit. [01:37:46.927 – 01:37:48.647] We're gonna quit at nine o'clock 'cause she's leaving. [01:37:48.647 – 01:37:49.627] Where's that girl that's leaving? [01:37:49.627 – 01:37:50.597] Going on. [01:37:50.597 – 01:37:52.347] Yeah, you're going on right there, right there. [01:37:52.347 – 01:37:53.277] Okay. [01:37:53.277 – 01:37:53.627] Yeah. [01:37:53.627 – 01:38:01.407] But what, uh, I, I tell you this one example of the fact you can do it in other groups too that I'm, I'm not a shrinking violet.

[01:38:01.407 – 01:38:04.627] You know, I used to be unless I was bombed, but I'm not a shrinking violet. [01:38:04.627 – 01:38:10.387] And it doesn't bother me one bit to be the greeter in somebody's group. [01:38:10.387 – 01:38:12.827] Uh, uh, and I don't care if I've never been there. [01:38:12.827 – 01:38:13.227] I'll… [01:38:13.227 – 01:38:14.667] If there ain't nobody greeting, I'll take over. [01:38:14.667 – 01:38:23.707] And, uh, one night I went into a group, and I swear to God it looked like one of those old dances where everybody lines up around the wall wanting to dance, don't have the nerve.

[01:38:23.707 – 01:38:24.047] Yeah. [01:38:24.047 – 01:38:24.806] You remember that? [01:38:24.806 – 01:38:25.357] Yeah. [01:38:25.357 – 01:38:30.627] And, uh, said, "Look." I said, "Well, look at this stupid mess." So I went around there, and I'm visiting with everybody. [01:38:30.627 – 01:38:34.867] I got about halfway around, and a woman came over, cra- cut across where I came over. [01:38:34.867 – 01:38:38.557] She said, "Can I ask you something?" I said, "Well, certainly. [01:38:38.557 – 01:38:45.917] What?" She said, "Are you selling something?" I said, uh, I… [01:38:45.917 – 01:38:48.967] First I just said, "No." And then I said, "Whoa, whoa, wait a minute.

[01:38:48.967 – 01:38:54.147] Yeah, I am." I said, "I'm selling recovery, girl, and we got a deal on it." You go… [01:38:54.147 – 01:38:54.987] And I am. [01:38:54.987 – 01:38:56.206] That's what I'm doing. [01:38:56.206 – 01:38:58.427] You know, I'm not gonna let… [01:38:58.427 – 01:39:07.227] If, if I can contribute to making a difference, I'm not gonna let a, an AA group be a bunch of, of, of, of sort of isolated people standing around a wall. [01:39:07.227 – 01:39:10.207] I'm gonna try to mix, mix that thing up a little bit if I can. [01:39:10.207 – 01:39:11.287] So, you know, I can't make…

[01:39:11.287 – 01:39:13.587] I won't change the whole deal, but I can change where I'm standing. [01:39:13.587 – 01:39:18.327] I guarantee you I can make it a warm, welcoming place, at least for e- everybody I can get a hold of. [01:39:18.327 – 01:39:23.107] So that, to me, that's, that's, that's how I like to think about stuff like that. [01:39:23.107 – 01:39:26.267] And my God, the range is, is just enormous. [01:39:26.267 – 01:39:30.167] But that's just a couple of things that, uh, that, that I'm really fond of doing. [01:39:30.167 – 01:39:33.867] Anybody one last shot before we, uh, before we, uh…

[01:39:33.867 – 01:39:36.787] Now, that was a blazing start. [01:39:36.787 – 01:39:44.087] Warren gave me strict orders, "You get through those first three steps." And we and we did. [01:39:44.087 – 01:39:47.547] We got zip right there, right there. [01:39:47.547 – 01:39:51.007] Well, but I truly believe the foundation is what's important. [01:39:51.007 – 01:39:54.367] If you don't have that foundation, you can philo- philosophize all you want to. [01:39:54.367 – 01:39:55.587] Won't mean a thing. [01:39:55.587 – 01:39:59.647] And so I don't mind putting some real, real time in on this, the fundamental stuff. [01:39:59.647 – 01:40:06.627] And tomorrow we'll, we'll, we'll launch into, to, to some of the, well, the rest of it is, is what we'll launch into.

[01:40:06.627 – 01:40:10.027] And by all means, I, I hope you'll, you'll follow what we got rolling a little bit here now. [01:40:10.027 – 01:40:12.167] Join in because remember what I was talking about. [01:40:12.167 – 01:40:14.907] The communication trebles with involvement. [01:40:14.907 – 01:40:18.887] And, and so by all means, jump, jump in, and, uh, don't let me hog the show. [01:40:18.887 – 01:40:21.167] Value it has. [01:40:21.167 – 01:40:25.747] Plus you keep me from just wandering off in my own head, as you keep me grounded. [01:40:25.747 – 01:40:30.306] So by all means, at any time, don't wait for me to, to, to prompt you or say…

[01:40:30.306 – 01:40:37.387] If you got anything you just want to comment or question or whatever, just, just, uh, give me a signal, and, and I'll get old Mike over there. [01:40:37.387 – 01:40:40.827] Uh, all right. [01:40:40.827 – 01:40:41.747] Well, I'm already going. [01:40:41.747 – 01:40:50.107] So we, we mutilated step one, uh, uh, l- last night, and we kind of alluded a little bit to the others. [01:40:50.107 – 01:41:00.257] So I'm just gonna pick up right, right after that and, and, uh, so keep it somewhat co- coherent, uh, and take off to, uh, at, at least through five,

[01:41:00.257 – 01:41:02.707] and then we'll, we'll see where we go from there. [01:41:02.707 – 01:41:06.287] And, uh, you know, what, what we basically… [01:41:06.287 – 01:41:16.347] What I was shooting for yesterday was to, to absolutely make clear my belief that surrender [01:41:16.347 – 01:41:17.487] is where we start. [01:41:17.487 – 01:41:19.107] That that's where we start. [01:41:19.107 – 01:41:29.347] And if we come in here with a lot of sort of jazzy notions about learning, and, and if we read enough books that we're gonna be okay, that, that, that just has not been my experience.

[01:41:29.347 – 01:41:36.147] You know, my experience is that this program comes alive when I take those actions that are laid out in the steps, not before. [01:41:36.147 – 01:41:38.907] And that there's no shortcut to it, no circuitous route. [01:41:38.907 – 01:41:41.927] And so it's a matter of putting these things into action. [01:41:41.927 – 01:41:46.147] And so surrender is so important because that's what opens the door. [01:41:46.147 – 01:41:55.807] And just like the first tradition is the most important tradition, I think the first step is the most important step because it's what anchors me and gets me going.

[01:41:55.807 – 01:42:06.877] You know, one thing just a, just, just sort of a belief of mine, that there are absolutely no, no [01:42:06.877 – 01:42:10.957] real standards about when it's working and when it isn't. [01:42:10.957 – 01:42:19.123] In this program, what I've observed is that We're free to, to, to work a, a– any way we wanna do it. [01:42:19.123 – 01:42:25.983] And we're free to stop doing the work at anything we're, we're willing to settle for. [01:42:25.983 – 01:42:28.503] Don't have to do all of the steps. [01:42:28.503 – 01:42:31.503] I know people who've never done steps who died sober.

[01:42:31.503 – 01:42:36.643] Weren't grinning, but they were, they, they were sober. [01:42:36.643 – 01:42:38.643] Uh, had a good buddy in, in Raleigh. [01:42:38.643 – 01:42:44.243] He used to greet people, and his, his claim to fame was he had never read the Big Book. [01:42:44.243 – 01:42:47.683] And he looked like he, he had never read the Big Book. [01:42:47.683 – 01:42:51.543] So that was his editorial comment. [01:42:51.543 – 01:42:52.303] "Glad to have you here. [01:42:52.303 – 01:42:56.083] You know, I never have read that book, you know." And, uh, the… [01:42:56.083 – 01:43:01.343] So we're free to quit, but we've gotta be willing to settle for that.

[01:43:01.343 – 01:43:11.343] And it, it's like we, we, we talked about with that story last night of David, that, that if I'm willing to settle for just not taking a drink and moving on with [01:43:11.343 – 01:43:12.883] life, it doesn't take a lot. [01:43:12.883 – 01:43:14.243] Doesn't take a lot. [01:43:14.243 – 01:43:21.623] But if I wanna be free, and if I wanna have a new life, and if I wanna have joy and real rewards, gotta go further. [01:43:21.623 – 01:43:25.183] But I'm the, I'm the guy that calls that shot. [01:43:25.183 – 01:43:27.023] It's how mu- what I'm willing to settle for.

[01:43:27.023 – 01:43:35.083] And, and personally, I was not the kind of alcoholic who would just saunter down to the saloon and have a little drink. [01:43:35.083 – 01:43:37.443] That was not my, my method. [01:43:37.443 – 01:43:42.143] I was the kinda guy, if I saunter down to the saloon, something's gonna happen. [01:43:42.143 – 01:43:45.783] I mean, I'm gonna make it happen if it ain't already going on. [01:43:45.783 – 01:43:49.083] And so I was somebody, when I drank, I was going somewhere. [01:43:49.083 – 01:43:51.503] I was not gonna sit around, meditate, vegetate. [01:43:51.503 – 01:43:53.863] Yeah, I'm gonna get into some swinging action.

[01:43:53.863 – 01:44:01.443] And, uh and I think that the program of recovery has to match my chemistry. [01:44:01.443 – 01:44:06.743] Yeah, if I just went to one little meeting and read a book and thought about it for a week, I'd go brain dead. [01:44:06.743 – 01:44:09.023] I'm just not geared that way. [01:44:09.023 – 01:44:10.323] My biology's different. [01:44:10.323 – 01:44:15.563] And, and so I'm, I'm the kinda guy who's gotta have some action and, and gotta be into the business of living. [01:44:15.563 – 01:44:18.123] And so that's kinda my approach. [01:44:18.123 – 01:44:21.083] And, you know, that, that having that surrender in place.

[01:44:21.083 – 01:44:22.163] So what? [01:44:22.163 – 01:44:24.083] What that does is prepares for the action. [01:44:24.083 – 01:44:24.763] What's the action? [01:44:24.763 – 01:44:27.343] And the second one is that we came to believe. [01:44:27.343 – 01:44:32.963] That, that come, come to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. [01:44:32.963 – 01:44:35.733] And I am deeply, deeply thankful. [01:44:35.733 – 01:44:46.063] Pro– Of all the things today, I'm probably as grateful for that as anything in this entire program, for the exact wording that come to believe. [01:44:46.063 – 01:44:47.583] No deadline, eh? [01:44:47.583 – 01:44:49.303] You don't have to do it by next Tuesday.

[01:44:49.303 – 01:44:50.743] You don't have to do it by the Lord's Prayer. [01:44:50.743 – 01:44:55.143] Yeah, come to believe as I'm able to come to believe. [01:44:55.143 – 01:45:01.003] Not by anybody else's standard, but by my standard, by what I am capable of doing. [01:45:01.003 – 01:45:06.003] Yeah, when I came here, I didn't have any belief in any power. [01:45:06.003 – 01:45:13.983] I mean, I believed in some that would bulldog me to the floor, but I didn't believe in any kind of a, of a supernatural, uh, uh, thing. [01:45:13.983 – 01:45:20.563] I had shut the door on that before I started school because I got introduced in that kind of…

[01:45:20.563 – 01:45:27.023] I know none of y'all probably ever seen this, but, uh, there's a certain Bible Belt fervor up in my part of the world. [01:45:27.023 – 01:45:30.723] And, um, and I got drug into that as a kid. [01:45:30.723 – 01:45:33.683] And, uh, and I mean literally drug in. [01:45:33.683 – 01:45:36.203] 'Cause I, I think the first exposure, I wouldn't have gone back. [01:45:36.203 – 01:45:38.183] And I didn't know what they were doing. [01:45:38.183 – 01:45:42.623] I mean, people wig out and start running up and down and shouting in the aisles and rolling and jumping.

[01:45:42.623 – 01:45:45.823] Well, that didn't look very inviting to me. [01:45:45.823 – 01:45:46.583] It was scary. [01:45:46.583 – 01:45:52.583] And, uh, and so I got drug into that against my will. [01:45:52.583 – 01:45:59.383] And I promised myself– I didn't tell my mother, but I promised myself if I ever got big enough, I wouldn't bother those folk anymore. [01:45:59.383 – 01:46:00.683] And I didn't. [01:46:00.683 – 01:46:03.323] And when I say I was shut down, I mean down. [01:46:03.323 – 01:46:06.063] I, I don't mean I was aggravated and confused. [01:46:06.063 – 01:46:07.563] I mean I was shut down. [01:46:07.563 – 01:46:10.093] I shut that door and said I'd never go back.

[01:46:10.093 – 01:46:13.923] And I did not go back into a church until I was eleven years sober. [01:46:13.923 – 01:46:17.503] So that was a very deep kind of a, of a conflict. [01:46:17.503 – 01:46:22.383] And, uh, and that's why I'm so thankful about how we approach that spiritual thing. [01:46:22.383 – 01:46:26.083] Why we woofing a little bit last night about that, that thing you read. [01:46:26.083 – 01:46:29.603] She's an old-time s– old-time gospel sister. [01:46:29.603 – 01:46:31.463] I could tell from what she read. [01:46:31.463 – 01:46:39.242] And then and why, and wh- Isn't that awful to pick on somebody like that?

[01:46:39.242 – 01:46:41.863] You know I'm kidding. [01:46:41.863 – 01:46:43.103] No, I'm not. [01:46:43.103 – 01:46:44.623] I'm serious as a heart attack. [01:46:44.623 – 01:46:49.682] But that's what I had. [01:46:49.682 – 01:46:52.513] You know, so when I came in today, and went into my firs- [01:46:52.675 – 01:46:53.195] Was meeting. [01:46:53.195 – 01:46:55.935] I mean, it, it looked like deja vu. [01:46:55.935 – 01:46:57.175] Here's that stuff again. [01:46:57.175 – 01:46:58.835] And that's what it looked like. [01:46:58.835 – 01:47:03.415] A-and we can talk about this being a spiritual program, not a religious program, all we want to. [01:47:03.415 – 01:47:08.595] But to a guy who sensitizes like me, this sounds tremendously religious.

[01:47:08.595 – 01:47:10.815] First thing they did is pray. [01:47:10.815 – 01:47:12.915] Just what I knew they'd do. [01:47:12.915 – 01:47:15.075] They didn't do the second thing. [01:47:15.075 – 01:47:19.715] I thought they'd come in shaking snakes or something, but they didn't do that, thank God. [01:47:19.715 – 01:47:25.415] But while they were praying that serenity prayer, I was saying to myself, "Just what I thought. [01:47:25.415 – 01:47:26.575] Just what I thought. [01:47:26.575 – 01:47:36.615] Here we go." And, uh, and, and how, how pleased I was as I kept coming back to learn that in this thing, we start where we

[01:47:36.615 – 01:47:36.855] are. [01:47:36.855 – 01:47:38.415] It doesn't matter where it is. [01:47:38.415 – 01:47:40.995] Don't have to apologize for it. [01:47:40.995 – 01:47:42.515] Start where I am. [01:47:42.515 – 01:47:45.115] If I start anywhere else, I'm going the wrong place. [01:47:45.115 – 01:47:47.375] So I start honestly where I am. [01:47:47.375 – 01:47:49.115] That I just flat didn't believe. [01:47:49.115 – 01:47:55.355] And, uh, and so came to believe means that it's as I'm able to come to believe. [01:47:55.355 – 01:47:58.175] It's gotta fit me, not satisfy anybody else. [01:47:58.175 – 01:47:59.195] It's, it's to fit me. [01:47:59.195 – 01:48:00.725] What? [01:48:00.725 – 01:48:02.775] And I, I kinda like this word. [01:48:02.775 – 01:48:08.735] A lot of times we read this step and talk about it as if it says we came to believe in a power greater than ourselves.

[01:48:08.735 – 01:48:09.755] Doesn't say that. [01:48:09.755 – 01:48:20.115] It says, "Came to believe that a power." Now, my way of thinking is that changes it from a concept to an action. [01:48:20.115 – 01:48:23.835] It puts, it puts real, real d-direction. [01:48:23.835 – 01:48:29.555] It per– came to believe that a power greater myself could restore my sanity. [01:48:29.555 – 01:48:32.275] Well, I believe that, you know, and I came to believe that. [01:48:32.275 – 01:48:33.295] That's why I came to believe. [01:48:33.295 – 01:48:35.075] I mean, the evidence was all around me. [01:48:35.075 – 01:48:41.935] I saw people that, my God, they seem worse than me, and, uh, and they were sober, and they seemed to be reasonably happy.

[01:48:41.935 – 01:48:49.495] And, and so that was a, a, a, a, a very important thing to me, just the example of other people. [01:48:49.495 – 01:48:53.495] And, uh, I had that kind of approach avoidance thing. [01:48:53.495 – 01:48:57.795] You know how you, you kind of attracted something and it repelled at the same time? [01:48:57.795 – 01:49:02.415] It's kinda like, I know y- I know I've, I've seen a couple of these down in Florida. [01:49:02.415 – 01:49:12.415] We have things, reptiles things that, that we got all kind of reptiles in Florida, and they put them in a, in a little hole somewhere, and they get

[01:49:12.415 – 01:49:18.574] poor old innocent tourists coming in and say, "Come look at the reptiles," for, for a buck or two. [01:49:18.574 – 01:49:23.315] Well, I don't wanna look at a reptile, but I wanna know what's in there, you know? [01:49:23.315 – 01:49:27.235] So I'll pay my two dollars or whatever and go over there and look. [01:49:27.235 – 01:49:27.865] Now, I don't wanna look. [01:49:27.865 – 01:49:29.495] I'm looking in there and jumping back. [01:49:29.495 – 01:49:30.855] Boy, that sucker's gonna eat me. [01:49:30.855 – 01:49:33.995] And but that's approach avoidance. [01:49:33.995 – 01:49:36.215] Yeah, I want to see the dude, but I don't wanna get too close.

[01:49:36.215 – 01:49:37.895] You know, I don't wanna see him up close and personal. [01:49:37.895 – 01:49:40.615] And that's kind of the way I was with the spiritual thing. [01:49:40.615 – 01:49:49.555] If there was a meeting and it was about the second or third step, and I knew those were religious, yeah, I'd, I'd, I'd, I would sneak in, you know? [01:49:49.555 – 01:49:53.755] I would, I'd wanna sit real inconspicuously so something like nobody would call on me. [01:49:53.755 – 01:49:55.675] But it was that kind of a start. [01:49:55.675 – 01:50:01.155] And I never did logically resolve that battle.

[01:50:01.155 – 01:50:03.735] Never re- never logically do that. [01:50:03.735 – 01:50:07.895] What I did is, is kinda like… [01:50:07.895 – 01:50:08.635] Well, it's not like. [01:50:08.635 – 01:50:09.555] It's exactly what happened. [01:50:09.555 – 01:50:15.635] I sensed in the first group, now it was in a penitentiary, but it didn't make any difference. [01:50:15.635 – 01:50:17.935] It was an excellent group of Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:50:17.935 – 01:50:19.295] Th-that's what I was in. [01:50:19.295 – 01:50:25.555] And it was in that group that I found a power greater than myself. [01:50:25.555 – 01:50:31.735] I felt something in that room that I had never felt before. [01:50:31.735 – 01:50:37.414] I, I watched examples, examples of what the spiritual life does.

[01:50:37.414 – 01:50:47.695] I watched men who, by their own description, had committed acts of depravity and cruelty that defied imagination. [01:50:47.695 – 01:50:57.015] Watch those same guys go through a transformation and become loving, excuse me, loving, trusted servants. [01:50:57.015 – 01:50:58.295] I don't have a cold. [01:50:58.295 – 01:51:01.075] I got a bronchial deal, and it just starts working every once in a while. [01:51:01.075 – 01:51:02.615] But I watched that happen. [01:51:02.615 – 01:51:06.115] And, and, and an example is so powerful, eh? [01:51:06.115 – 01:51:07.835] An example is so powerful. [01:51:07.835 – 01:51:14.335] And so I could see by people who claimed a spiritual life what it did to folks.

[01:51:14.335 – 01:51:21.335] And what I did was I started to feel the spirit in that room. [01:51:21.335 – 01:51:30.715] The first power that I ever believed in in my life was the power I couldn't see, touch, or describe, except I knew it was there. [01:51:30.715 – 01:51:39.975] That's the first power I ever prayed to, was a power that I couldn't name, but I couldn't deny it because I saw that spirit and felt that spirit. [01:51:39.975 – 01:51:45.055] And, uh, and that hasn't changed enormously over the years. [01:51:45.055 – 01:51:54.035] Yeah, one of the battles I had in trying to deal with the spiritual life, I always wanted to, I don't know if it's the right word or not, but kinda personify God.

[01:51:54.035 – 01:52:00.355] You know, I'd, I, I always wanted to figure out whether he was six feet tall or she was five feets, foot six or, you know, whatever. [01:52:00.355 – 01:52:03.755] You know, it was, I mean, ridiculous. [01:52:03.755 – 01:52:14.475] But I always wanted to try to do that and try to figure out how somebody, whoever he was, with I don't know how many billion people there are on this planet that claim some relationship, [01:52:14.475 – 01:52:24.775] but how some, one, somebody is gonna be looking at whether I'm holding this mic this way or this way, you know, or tell me, you know, to be careful at that next intersection,

[01:52:24.775 – 01:52:25.075] you know? [01:52:25.075 – 01:52:29.295] Well, you know, that stretches a bit for a guy like me. [01:52:29.295 – 01:52:36.725] And so it was not till I quit tr– I, I cheated a little bit on, on, on, on the steps. [01:52:36.725 – 01:52:42.815] I started trying to name it and just, just claim the spirit that I felt. [01:52:42.815 – 01:52:47.015] That's what I prayed to, was that spirit, whatever it was. [01:52:47.015 – 01:52:51.495] And, uh, lo and behold, it started to, uh, started to happen. [01:52:51.495 – 01:52:58.465] And I believed, I truly believed that that power could restore me because I saw living proof of it everywhere I looked.

[01:52:58.465 – 01:53:01.147] I don't know about– I didn't know how to pray. [01:53:01.147 – 01:53:01.587] Yeah. [01:53:01.587 – 01:53:02.507] I mean, never had tried. [01:53:02.507 – 01:53:03.427] I w- how would I know? [01:53:03.427 – 01:53:04.927] It's… [01:53:04.927 – 01:53:05.827] I di- I didn't know how. [01:53:05.827 – 01:53:10.527] When I first started praying, true to form, I'd just overdo it, you know? [01:53:10.527 – 01:53:14.307] I didn't just pray for, you know, uh, give me a little peace today or whatever, you know? [01:53:14.307 – 01:53:18.727] Yeah, I'd pray for crop failure in India, you know, the– whatever. [01:53:18.727 – 01:53:24.207] You know, a drought in Florida or something had nothing to do with anything that was of p- pertinent to me.

[01:53:24.207 – 01:53:25.547] But that's what I'd do. [01:53:25.547 – 01:53:26.567] I'd, I'd pray till I… [01:53:26.567 – 01:53:28.767] Good God, I'd bore myself with prayers of the heart. [01:53:28.767 – 01:53:31.766] And then had to learn how. [01:53:31.766 – 01:53:34.206] You know, I had to learn the spiritual life. [01:53:34.206 – 01:53:41.887] And so I believed in a, in a– that, that a power that existed in that room could restore me. [01:53:41.887 – 01:53:48.407] And when I did the third step prayer, it was to that power when I got to that point. [01:53:48.407 – 01:53:51.207] And, um, what… [01:53:51.207 – 01:53:59.287] You know, my, my whole, whole notion is like when I started to turn my will and life over to the care of God as I understand it.

[01:53:59.287 – 01:54:02.427] Do you ever pray with one eye open? [01:54:02.427 – 01:54:03.906] You know, you got… [01:54:03.906 – 01:54:09.126] I w- I wanted to do it, but I mean, I didn't wanna go full bore. [01:54:09.126 – 01:54:10.147] Uh, you know, that… [01:54:10.147 – 01:54:16.547] I, I wanted to turn my will and life over, but cautiously because I didn't wanna get too good. [01:54:16.547 – 01:54:22.947] I, uh, uh, and I was afraid I was gonna get snapped into purity and, uh, and I wasn't interested in that. [01:54:22.947 – 01:54:24.987] You know, I wanted to improve incrementally.

[01:54:24.987 – 01:54:27.387] I didn't wanna just get a big transformation. [01:54:27.387 – 01:54:31.267] So I'd pray and, and say, "Not yet now." I mean, "Wait, wait. [01:54:31.267 – 01:54:41.447] Hold on a minute." And, uh, it took a while, you– for me to get into, uh, to, to really get, getting a spiritual foundation. [01:54:41.447 – 01:54:46.527] And now I tell you this, this is just a Tom I belief, but it's, it's certainly mine. [01:54:46.527 – 01:54:52.047] I believe that the first three steps are really not about recovery. [01:54:52.047 – 01:54:54.647] They, um, they set the stage for recovery.

[01:54:54.647 – 01:54:58.967] To me, they're the foundation upon which the new life is built. [01:54:58.967 – 01:55:03.147] And I've known many people who've never gone past the third step. [01:55:03.147 – 01:55:06.867] Had just no pretense of going through the rest of the motions. [01:55:06.867 – 01:55:07.687] Known that. [01:55:07.687 – 01:55:11.787] It's just like we were talking about last night, uh, and this morning a little bit. [01:55:11.787 – 01:55:14.587] We stop at whatever we're willing to settle for. [01:55:14.587 – 01:55:18.217] And, and nobody can chastise that, you know? [01:55:18.217 – 01:55:19.567] And I know people who do that. [01:55:19.567 – 01:55:20.507] It's fine.

[01:55:20.507 – 01:55:23.267] That, that, that's what they're suggested steps of recovery anyway. [01:55:23.267 – 01:55:26.647] So, you know, that was my beginning. [01:55:26.647 – 01:55:30.967] You know, so I started to have a spiritual life and started to come alive. [01:55:30.967 – 01:55:35.427] And, um, it was tremendously, tremendously important. [01:55:35.427 – 01:55:42.467] Uh, today, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, a pretty deeply spiritual person, but I'm not a ritual person. [01:55:42.467 – 01:55:42.757] I've… [01:55:42.757 – 01:55:50.567] You know, I'm somebody who believes that my function, just like when I turn my will and life over and when I do my daily, daily meditation, just like I did this morning.

[01:55:50.567 – 01:55:55.147] What I basically want to do is get in tune with God. [01:55:55.147 – 01:55:58.407] And I'm not asking Him to tell me what to buy at the grocery store. [01:55:58.407 – 01:55:59.107] I mean, that's silly. [01:55:59.107 – 01:55:59.857] I, I… [01:55:59.857 – 01:56:02.527] Go get God to perform tricks to show me He's up there. [01:56:02.527 – 01:56:02.767] That… [01:56:02.767 – 01:56:04.866] No, that's not, not my game. [01:56:04.866 – 01:56:12.157] You know, you know, what I wanna do is get in tune so that the spiritual life is not what I do, it's, it's how I live. [01:56:12.157 – 01:56:13.267] It's how I function.

[01:56:13.267 – 01:56:15.267] It's where my guidance comes in. [01:56:15.267 – 01:56:19.627] And when I'm in tune, it's pretty hard to, pretty hard to go wrong. [01:56:19.627 – 01:56:20.007] Yeah. [01:56:20.007 – 01:56:24.327] I, I, I give you example of how that, how that works for me. [01:56:24.327 – 01:56:27.887] And, and I could give you 10,000 examples. [01:56:27.887 – 01:56:28.667] I'll just pick one. [01:56:28.667 – 01:56:36.627] A funny thing happens when you're in tune, uh, when you're really tuned in, and it's almost like it's just automatic. [01:56:36.627 – 01:56:37.867] It, it just sort of fall… [01:56:37.867 – 01:56:38.847] It just flows, eh? [01:56:38.847 – 01:56:40.567] There's no real work there, it just flows.

[01:56:40.567 – 01:56:47.527] And one day, I was, um, in February, I was headed to Fargo, North Dakota. [01:56:47.527 – 01:56:53.447] And now, I mean, somebody gotta hate you to invite you to Far- Fargo, North Dakota in February. [01:56:53.447 – 01:56:54.547] Man, that is brutal. [01:56:54.547 – 01:56:59.927] And so I'm, I'm in, I'm in O'Hare, which is, which is not my favorite place to be in Chicago. [01:56:59.927 – 01:57:05.027] In O'Hare, and I'm, I'm going down the concourse headed to my next flight. [01:57:05.027 – 01:57:06.857] And you know what? [01:57:06.857 – 01:57:10.327] I, I don't know what it is, but everybody in airports are mad.

[01:57:10.327 – 01:57:11.567] I mean, everybody's mad. [01:57:11.567 – 01:57:13.527] Nobody's smiling about nothing. [01:57:13.527 – 01:57:16.357] And, uh, it don't matter if there's anything happening. [01:57:16.357 – 01:57:18.707] They can be talking to their best friend, they look mad. [01:57:18.707 – 01:57:26.627] And so I'm walking down the concourse, and all at once I realize I'm grinning. [01:57:26.627 – 01:57:29.587] And I was embarrassed. [01:57:29.587 – 01:57:31.986] I thought, "Man, they're gonna put a net on me." [01:57:34.403 – 01:57:36.043] 'Cause, 'cause that's not airport behavior. [01:57:36.043 – 01:57:39.403] And, uh, no smooching during the meeting. [01:57:39.403 – 01:57:45.303] But, so, so, uh, all it was… [01:57:45.303 – 01:57:46.753] So I snapped in, you know?

[01:57:46.753 – 01:57:49.663] I snapped back in and put on my game face and kept going. [01:57:49.663 – 01:57:52.023] And it, and I, I got to thinking about that. [01:57:52.023 – 01:57:56.063] Why was I grinning going through that stupid airport that I detest? [01:57:56.063 – 01:58:00.483] And it, and it answered about what the spiritual life is, you know? [01:58:00.483 – 01:58:02.263] That I was… [01:58:02.263 – 01:58:05.423] Y- you remember a guy named Michael Jordan? [01:58:05.423 – 01:58:07.053] Y- y- you know who I'm talking about? [01:58:07.053 – 01:58:08.083] Yeah. [01:58:08.083 – 01:58:09.703] You, you know he's a North Carolina boy, don't you? [01:58:09.703 – 01:58:10.363] You got…

[01:58:10.363 – 01:58:11.863] Well, he was. [01:58:11.863 – 01:58:13.853] He's got afo- he's able to afford a house now. [01:58:13.853 – 01:58:17.583] But he just bought a lot, bought a lot five miles from me. [01:58:17.583 – 01:58:19.243] So I may have a rich Yankee. [01:58:19.243 – 01:58:20.603] Some of it'll move over on me. [01:58:20.603 – 01:58:25.703] But anyway, I, I, I thought about, about, about him in the… [01:58:25.703 – 01:58:28.203] Later on when I was trying to figure out what all that was about, you know? [01:58:28.203 – 01:58:30.763] When, when, when I'm grinning in the airport. [01:58:30.763 – 01:58:37.823] And Michael, uh, probably everybody in here has seen it, unle- unless you were hiding somewhere.

[01:58:37.823 – 01:58:42.703] Uh, one, one time in a game, he had scored a ridiculous number of points. [01:58:42.703 – 01:58:43.783] I mean, ridiculous. [01:58:43.783 – 01:58:47.193] And, uh, he couldn't miss, you know? [01:58:47.193 – 01:58:51.163] And he was down, he scored a basket over his shoulder, not looking or something, you know? [01:58:51.163 – 01:58:57.023] And so he's trotting back up the court, and he looked over at the opposing bench, and he just gave it that old salute. [01:58:57.023 – 01:58:58.343] Like, "Don't ask me, man. [01:58:58.343 – 01:59:02.503] I don't know." And later on, people ask him about that.

[01:59:02.503 – 01:59:04.023] Millions of people ask him about it. [01:59:04.023 – 01:59:06.723] And he said, "I don't know what happened. [01:59:06.723 – 01:59:10.863] It seemed like I was in a zone." That he's just playing effortlessly. [01:59:10.863 – 01:59:13.103] And, uh, I mean, and that's true. [01:59:13.103 – 01:59:16.243] You know, I used to play golf in, uh, before my knees went out on me. [01:59:16.243 – 01:59:17.843] I still play it mentally. [01:59:17.843 – 01:59:22.543] But I was playing one day, and a couple of old men asked me to join them. [01:59:22.543 – 01:59:26.023] And so I played with them, and neither one could hit it out of the shadow.

[01:59:26.023 – 01:59:27.703] So I'm just sort of taking it easy. [01:59:27.703 – 01:59:35.003] And, uh, I got to the eighth hole and realized I was way under par, and I'm not that good. [01:59:35.003 – 01:59:41.163] And, uh, I got on to the, the, the ninth hole, birdied it, and tied the course record. [01:59:41.163 – 01:59:42.563] Now, I'm a rookie. [01:59:42.563 – 01:59:44.683] I mean, I am a rank amateur. [01:59:44.683 – 01:59:46.243] Tied the course record. [01:59:46.243 – 01:59:48.223] Now hear this part. [01:59:48.223 – 01:59:50.423] I stopped and had the obligatory hot dog. [01:59:50.423 – 01:59:52.663] And got on the back nine. [01:59:52.663 – 01:59:54.563] I said, "You wait till I get back there, man.

[01:59:54.563 – 01:59:58.603] I'm gonna tear this sucker up." I took over, you know? [01:59:58.603 – 02:00:00.063] I went… [02:00:00.063 – 02:00:05.403] I play- I played 32, 47. [02:00:05.403 – 02:00:09.343] I, I, I, I, I w- Off the chart. [02:00:09.343 – 02:00:10.423] I mean, my God. [02:00:10.423 – 02:00:13.763] And, uh, but that's what happened when I took over. [02:00:13.763 – 02:00:17.123] And what happened, I played with those two old guys, and it was no effort. [02:00:17.123 – 02:00:19.293] I mean, I didn't have to swing hard or work hard. [02:00:19.293 – 02:00:24.263] And so I get me out of the way, and I'm just sort of playing along, and I looked like Michael Jordan.

[02:00:24.263 – 02:00:25.883] Then I took over. [02:00:25.883 – 02:00:26.983] The zone was done. [02:00:26.983 – 02:00:29.943] And that's what, and that's what the spiritual life is. [02:00:29.943 – 02:00:31.983] That's what being in tune is about. [02:00:31.983 – 02:00:34.523] And I just got to thinking about why was that so? [02:00:34.523 – 02:00:42.943] And what, what I concluded is that I was exactly who I was supposed to be that day. [02:00:42.943 – 02:00:48.643] No sham, no pretense, no braggadocio, no pushing people around. [02:00:48.643 – 02:00:54.163] I'm ju- I knew who I was, and that's exactly who I was, nothing else. [02:00:54.163 – 02:01:02.503] I was exactly where I was supposed to be, in O'Hare Airport, so I could get a plane to go to Fargo.

[02:01:02.503 – 02:01:03.543] I was exactly where… [02:01:03.543 – 02:01:10.943] And I was doing exactly what I'm supposed to do, going to talk to my fellow alcoholics in the snow banks up there. [02:01:10.943 – 02:01:17.763] And, um, and when, when those ingredients are together, the whole deal is together, eh? [02:01:17.763 – 02:01:19.843] You know, the spiritual life's not a theory. [02:01:19.843 – 02:01:22.743] We have to live it, and that's exactly what that was. [02:01:22.743 – 02:01:24.242] And it's amazing. [02:01:24.242 – 02:01:25.883] Absolutely amazing that, um… [02:01:25.883 – 02:01:32.803] And I've seen that, my God, not just in the peaceful, blissful moments, but I see it in my life, you know?

[02:01:32.803 – 02:01:37.963] So that the, the, well, the spiritual life is a real, real tool for me. [02:01:37.963 – 02:01:39.083] It's how I live. [02:01:39.083 – 02:01:40.403] It's how I do. [02:01:40.403 – 02:01:41.342] It's how I exist. [02:01:41.342 – 02:01:41.923] It's what I do. [02:01:41.923 – 02:01:43.723] And I have a lot of fun with it, you know? [02:01:43.723 – 02:01:47.263] It's, so it's not sitting around doing roses and crosses all the time. [02:01:47.263 – 02:01:49.663] But it's just getting on with the business of living. [02:01:49.663 – 02:01:50.743] It's the spiritual life. [02:01:50.743 – 02:01:54.863] I, I, I'll tell you about something happened this weekend. [02:01:54.863 – 02:02:03.943] They always told me that we, we started at break time, and they said, "You gotta work a break in." And so I'll do that now, but trust me.

[02:02:03.943 – 02:02:06.063] Don't trust me implicitly now. [02:02:06.063 – 02:02:08.003] Just trust me a, a little bit. [02:02:08.003 – 02:02:11.083] I, I, I'll tell you this story about that. [02:02:11.083 – 02:02:13.602] Now, and I'm not a mystic guy. [02:02:13.602 – 02:02:19.283] I, I, I get a little nervous when I get around real sort of mystical people. [02:02:19.283 – 02:02:22.043] But I swear to God, I think I'm turning into one. [02:02:22.043 – 02:02:24.603] I mean, y'all hold me back. [02:02:24.603 – 02:02:25.943] I go… [02:02:25.943 – 02:02:30.423] Uh, I was in California last weekend, finally. [02:02:30.423 – 02:02:34.482] And, uh, and I travel a lot. [02:02:34.482 – 02:02:39.163] That one, that came close to the record for, for bad trips.

[02:02:39.163 – 02:02:45.423] And, uh, I, many with my airline had quit flying to a place, and they put me on some- something. [02:02:45.423 – 02:02:47.493] I think it was Taiwan Air or something. [02:02:47.493 – 02:02:48.943] I, I don't know what it was. [02:02:48.943 – 02:02:50.243] It had wings, but barely. [02:02:50.243 – 02:02:52.063] And so I got where it's going. [02:02:52.063 – 02:02:58.203] Well, when I got to Seattle, if you've ever gone through SeaTac, I mean, that's like crossing Tampa. [02:02:58.203 – 02:03:00.183] I mean, that thing sprawls forever. [02:03:00.183 – 02:03:06.383] Got off my plane, got over to the, to the Taiwan thing, what- whatever it was.

[02:03:06.383 – 02:03:09.463] And, uh, I didn't have my ID. [02:03:09.463 – 02:03:12.623] Well, if you don't have ID, you ain't going nowhere. [02:03:12.623 – 02:03:15.102] Yeah, I mean, they, they, I mean, they flat shut the door on you. [02:03:15.102 – 02:03:24.183] And, uh, so I told the guy, I said, "Tell me how I can get around this roadblock." He said, "Man, you can't." I said, "They'll put me in jail if I let you on that." So I had to go… [02:03:24.183 – 02:03:26.343] Not a single electric cart. [02:03:26.343 – 02:03:27.283] Here I'm hobbling.

[02:03:27.283 – 02:03:29.763] You know, I had knee surgery, and I'm hobbling bad. [02:03:29.763 – 02:03:31.683] And I can barely walk slow. [02:03:31.683 – 02:03:35.463] But I had to hurry because they're going, and I wanted to go with them. [02:03:35.463 – 02:03:38.863] And so- I boogied as, well, boogied. [02:03:38.863 – 02:03:46.583] I, I hobbled, hobbled as fast as I could all the way across that airport to the very other end, to no avail. [02:03:46.583 – 02:03:52.403] I saw the plane beautifully taking off that I'd come in on with my license. [02:03:52.403 – 02:03:53.063] I knew that. [02:03:53.063 – 02:04:01.283] And, uh, so I raced back to try to be charming and see if I could get, grease my way into that plane.

[02:04:01.283 – 02:04:02.723] And we worked it out. [02:04:02.723 – 02:04:08.563] And, uh, I used my Sam's Club picture for photo ID. [02:04:08.563 – 02:04:16.723] He said, "Ah, God, I guess I'll take it if you'll just get on and get on the plane." And it's worth it to get rid of it. [02:04:16.723 – 02:04:20.603] Made it, but my license is gone. [02:04:20.603 – 02:04:23.083] And, and I wasn't even sure it was on that plane, but I figured it was. [02:04:23.083 – 02:04:31.863] Got to, uh, to California where I was going, and, uh, my wallet was gone.

[02:04:31.863 – 02:04:38.293] I said, "How the devil did I lose that?" So I called the Taiwan Air and spoke French or something. [02:04:38.293 – 02:04:40.923] And anyway, we communicated. [02:04:40.923 – 02:04:45.703] I was walletless, broke, and, uh, not great, eh? [02:04:45.703 – 02:04:51.243] Well, the, the spiritual life's not a theory. [02:04:51.243 – 02:04:54.803] And, and the things that happen scare me sometimes. [02:04:54.803 – 02:04:55.783] They're just spooky. [02:04:55.783 – 02:05:02.823] The next morning, a flight attendant from the airline I was on that had… [02:05:02.823 – 02:05:04.173] She said, "Mr. [02:05:04.173 – 02:05:14.693] Ivester, I have a suspicion that you lost your driver's license." I said, "You are right, girl." And she said, "I have it in my hot little hand." And

[02:05:14.693 – 02:05:17.843] now, and this gal– Now, this is not airline policy. [02:05:17.843 – 02:05:20.283] Airline policy, they got a, a procedure for that. [02:05:20.283 – 02:05:22.023] You know, you got something, you'd put it and shoot. [02:05:22.023 – 02:05:24.783] Somebody will look for it, and it'd show up about nine years later. [02:05:24.783 – 02:05:27.463] That's if at all. [02:05:27.463 – 02:05:27.993] That's, uh… [02:05:27.993 – 02:05:28.823] That… [02:05:28.823 – 02:05:33.243] She, she said, "Well, I have it." And I said, "Well, thank God," you know? [02:05:33.243 – 02:05:43.943] And, and so she said– I said, "Well, just stick it in the mail to me or something." She said, "Well, I'll do better than that because you gotta travel, I know." What she had done is taken it on herself

[02:05:43.943 – 02:05:50.303] to take it home, take my identity, and trace it back through the records and find out where I was. [02:05:50.303 – 02:06:00.363] She called me on my cell phone and said, "I will have my husband to take this to his office tomorrow morning, and he'll put that FedEx guaranteed." [02:06:00.363 – 02:06:02.783] And, and, uh, that's exactly what she did. [02:06:02.783 – 02:06:04.922] And, uh, unbelievable. [02:06:04.922 – 02:06:05.863] Unbelievable. [02:06:05.863 – 02:06:10.203] Amazing when you put out what you get back, eh? [02:06:10.203 – 02:06:13.763] And all we'd done, we'd been a little friendly on the plane, just kidding around.

[02:06:13.763 – 02:06:16.643] But it's amazing how that happened. [02:06:16.643 – 02:06:17.623] That's the spiritual life. [02:06:17.623 – 02:06:18.612] You know, the spiritual life. [02:06:18.612 – 02:06:21.103] Wasn't trying to sham or jam or do anything else. [02:06:21.103 – 02:06:23.922] It just, you know, it was just two humans connecting. [02:06:23.922 – 02:06:27.403] And here she went extraordinary lengths to do something. [02:06:27.403 – 02:06:29.903] Wallet's still gone. [02:06:29.903 – 02:06:35.023] I had carried a little old valise type of thing, a sissy-looking thing. [02:06:35.023 – 02:06:38.263] I think my, my- I think it was my wife, but I just grabbed it when I was leaving. [02:06:38.263 – 02:06:42.743] And, and I had– I remembered putting my wallet in that thing.

[02:06:42.743 – 02:06:44.803] No wallet. [02:06:44.803 – 02:06:50.003] Me and another fella both searched the valise. [02:06:50.003 – 02:06:51.423] Everything. [02:06:51.423 – 02:06:51.743] We have… [02:06:51.743 – 02:06:54.023] But I had a folder, kind of like something like that. [02:06:54.023 – 02:06:57.523] And, and, uh, we, we riffled through that thing three times. [02:06:57.523 – 02:07:02.163] The next morning, uh, just think what you want. [02:07:02.163 – 02:07:08.803] The next morning, I, I, I opened up that valise, and my wallet was laying in that folder. [02:07:08.803 – 02:07:12.483] We could not possibly have missed it. [02:07:12.483 – 02:07:13.143] There's no way. [02:07:13.143 – 02:07:15.623] We, we went through the papers, riffled the papers.

[02:07:15.623 – 02:07:18.283] And, and, uh, two of us searched the thing. [02:07:18.283 – 02:07:21.663] The wallet's laying there. [02:07:21.663 – 02:07:23.383] My host… [02:07:23.383 – 02:07:26.023] I don't know if you've met a lady by the name of Debbie Davis. [02:07:26.023 – 02:07:26.583] Yeah. [02:07:26.583 – 02:07:29.343] She's a great, she's a great member of AA. [02:07:29.343 – 02:07:30.563] Fine, fine member. [02:07:30.563 – 02:07:33.443] And, uh, s-super. [02:07:33.443 – 02:07:35.323] Deeply spiritual lady. [02:07:35.323 – 02:07:37.783] And I've been– And I was staying at her house, and, and her husband. [02:07:37.783 – 02:07:38.283] Yeah. [02:07:38.283 – 02:07:39.363] Don't get me wrong now. [02:07:39.363 – 02:07:45.683] Don't tell my wife that I was out there with some Hollywood slinkstress that, uh, that…

[02:07:45.683 – 02:07:46.963] No, she knew it. [02:07:46.963 – 02:07:50.383] And, uh, but Debbie, Debbie does a morning meditation. [02:07:50.383 – 02:07:55.783] Now, y-y-y-you, you heard what I just said about that, that little linkage of events? [02:07:55.783 – 02:07:56.003] Yeah. [02:07:56.003 – 02:08:04.303] About the time I found the wallet, and I, I told them, "Search is off," she came up. [02:08:04.303 – 02:08:05.743] Here's… [02:08:05.743 – 02:08:06.353] She reads… [02:08:06.353 – 02:08:09.483] This is not conference-approved, but, but don't let it out now. [02:08:09.483 – 02:08:10.123] She… [02:08:10.123 – 02:08:12.143] This is part of her meditation procedure. [02:08:12.143 – 02:08:14.523] She reads something called Daily Word. [02:08:15.445 – 02:08:17.465] And, uh, she says it's part of her deal.

[02:08:17.465 – 02:08:19.505] And here's what she was reading. [02:08:19.505 – 02:08:23.265] Uh, she's talking about grace. [02:08:23.265 – 02:08:26.225] "By the grace of God, I'm, I'm a, I'm a blessing and I'm blessed. [02:08:26.225 – 02:08:33.055] I realize this, this to a greater degree when, for some unknown reason…" Now bear in mind what I was just telling you about that happened. [02:08:33.055 – 02:08:40.345] "For some unknown reason, I feel an urgency to call a loved one." I guarantee everybody in this room has, has, has experienced this. [02:08:40.345 – 02:08:50.445] "Feel an urg- u- an urgency to, to, uh, to call a loved one at the moment this person needs comforting." Any time I have a s-

[02:08:50.445 – 02:08:54.505] a, a hunch that I need to call and don't, I regret it every single time. [02:08:54.505 – 02:09:05.425] And, uh, "Or I may have seemingly lost a purse or a wallet." She, [02:09:05.425 – 02:09:06.495] she told me that. [02:09:06.495 – 02:09:10.665] I said, "Get away from me, girl." "You're not sp- you're not spooking me." I go… [02:09:10.665 – 02:09:22.785] And "Only to have it returned to me by a considerate, caring person." Coincidence [02:09:22.785 – 02:09:23.885] is a strange thing, isn't it? [02:09:23.885 – 02:09:24.215] It… [02:09:24.215 – 02:09:26.955] Amazing stuff. [02:09:26.955 – 02:09:29.045] And you know, that's… [02:09:29.045 – 02:09:31.585] You know, I don't call it what you want to, but it- it's a fact.

[02:09:31.585 – 02:09:33.065] That's exactly what happened. [02:09:33.065 – 02:09:38.165] And everything returned with no genius on my part. [02:09:38.165 – 02:09:41.405] All I'm doing is just practicing spiritual life. [02:09:41.405 – 02:09:44.125] And the good stuff happens to me. [02:09:44.125 – 02:09:45.385] I, I mean, it does. [02:09:45.385 – 02:09:49.285] You know, a lot of people talk about how nasty their neighbors are and the people in their city. [02:09:49.285 – 02:09:50.385] I don't live in that world. [02:09:50.385 – 02:09:54.005] I live in a world filled with incredibly nice people. [02:09:54.005 – 02:09:55.505] I really do. [02:09:55.505 – 02:09:58.065] I meet very few jackasses. [02:09:58.065 – 02:10:01.285] And when I do, I've got enough sense to get away.

[02:10:01.285 – 02:10:02.825] I don't hang out with jackasses. [02:10:02.825 – 02:10:03.524] You know? [02:10:03.524 – 02:10:05.645] I don't know how to deal with that. [02:10:05.645 – 02:10:07.725] And to me, that's the spiritual life. [02:10:07.725 – 02:10:08.145] You know, that's… [02:10:08.145 – 02:10:08.725] It's a matter… [02:10:08.725 – 02:10:10.565] And it's not witchcraft, you know? [02:10:10.565 – 02:10:11.085] It… [02:10:11.085 – 02:10:12.205] When, when, when, when, when she… [02:10:12.205 – 02:10:15.175] That's why I said, "Get away from me, girl." She, she would tell you. [02:10:15.175 – 02:10:15.565] Now, you… [02:10:15.565 – 02:10:16.435] That's exactly what… [02:10:16.435 – 02:10:17.765] God put that thing right in there. [02:10:17.765 – 02:10:24.625] Now, he might have been busy, but something happens when you're connected to that spiritual life that defies an explanation.

[02:10:24.625 – 02:10:34.905] And, um, and so, you know, that's why I want is a power that guides me, number one, so I know how to treat people, you know, so I can be a help [02:10:34.905 – 02:10:42.545] to people and not just some dope, uh, trying to have his way or push people around or demand respect or any of that stuff. [02:10:42.545 – 02:10:48.085] You know, I, I want to just be a functioning human who is a good example of what recovery looks like. [02:10:48.085 – 02:10:49.085] That's what I wanna be.

[02:10:49.085 – 02:10:55.225] I don't wanna be somebody who, who looks at me and says, "Well, if that's what AA is, I don't want any of that." I don't want that. [02:10:55.225 – 02:10:59.085] I, I wanna be somebody who will attract and not repel. [02:10:59.085 – 02:11:03.085] And so to me, th- th- th- this is what this is about. [02:11:03.085 – 02:11:06.325] It, it's not about getting into rituals and chants. [02:11:06.325 – 02:11:10.265] It's about getting into the spiritual life and, and letting it become the way I live. [02:11:10.265 – 02:11:20.425] And, and so tho- those steps were, were, uh, enormously important in terms of my getting into a spiritual kind of a,

[02:11:20.425 – 02:11:27.685] of open-mindedness so I could then move into doing the work that, that's so important to do. [02:11:27.685 – 02:11:38.885] Now, I tell you what, even though Warren and Mike and Jim cheated me out of a bunch of time, let's [02:11:38.885 – 02:11:40.745] take 15 minutes and just take a break. [02:11:40.745 – 02:11:43.945] Well, the, uh… [02:11:43.945 – 02:11:51.725] I guess everybody's got their own way of sorta taking a look at, at, at, at, at how steps fit and do all that. [02:11:51.725 – 02:12:02.305] The, the first three is, you pretty well gathered from what I was saying, that I d- I consider those the foundation, you know, the, the place we build from, of sorta recognizing

[02:12:02.305 – 02:12:07.625] that ship's on the rocks and, uh, and, and, and, and getting the utter reality of what we're dealing with. [02:12:07.625 – 02:12:10.965] And then we'll move into, uh… [02:12:10.965 – 02:12:20.525] And I'll t- I'll attempt to get through f- four through seven and if we can do that, and I think that'll work out fairly well with the timetable. [02:12:20.525 – 02:12:28.285] Uh, the ne- the ne- tho- those steps have to do, for my money, with causes and conditions. [02:12:28.285 – 02:12:38.305] You know, I, I mentioned yesterday that, that, you know, that I certainly believe there's a great deal more to alcoholism than just drinking, that alcoholism is an

[02:12:38.305 – 02:12:43.664] illness and, and that, that drinking was the cure for the illness for a long time. [02:12:43.664 – 02:12:47.015] It's this thing that, that, uh, made me functional. [02:12:47.015 – 02:12:56.445] And otherwise, if, with as many kinds of defects and flaws and, and hang-ups that I had, uh, I wouldn't have been hitting on much without drinking. [02:12:56.445 – 02:12:56.865] So it… [02:12:56.865 – 02:12:59.425] Dr- drinking was a real solution, not a problem. [02:12:59.425 – 02:13:00.605] It was a real solution. [02:13:00.605 – 02:13:05.065] But unfortunately, the solution became the, the big part of the problem, you know?

[02:13:05.065 – 02:13:14.425] And, uh, so those first three, the way I like to look at it, I like to keep stuff real simple and, and real direct. [02:13:14.425 – 02:13:19.565] Those thi- Those first three steps are essentially about stopping the bleeding. [02:13:19.565 – 02:13:27.025] To stop the bleeding, and then get a base to operate from, and it does it ver- very, very effectively. [02:13:27.025 – 02:13:28.385] The, um… [02:13:28.385 – 02:13:32.445] And then we move into, to what prevents us… [02:13:32.445 – 02:13:35.845] For those of you who don't know David, that we went over…

[02:13:35.845 – 02:13:37.005] Or John, whatever his name is. [02:13:37.005 – 02:13:37.805] David, I believe. [02:13:37.805 – 02:13:38.925] The guy… [02:13:38.925 – 02:13:44.185] You know, what, what happened to David was that he missed the healing part. [02:13:44.185 – 02:13:54.545] And then just, again, our Dusty, our wealthy person from, uh, Atlanta, has copies of that if you missed it, and he'd just be thrilled and delighted [02:13:54.545 – 02:13:57.515] to, uh, run you beautiful color copies of it. [02:13:57.515 – 02:14:02.005] And then get out of town before the bill comes in. [02:14:02.005 – 02:14:04.725] Uh, but if you'd like to… [02:14:04.725 – 02:14:14.845] If those of you who weren't here, that, uh, it's a truly, truly meaningful thing to me that gets to what happens to people who, who are, who, who stop

[02:14:14.845 – 02:14:17.185] at the point of just not drinking. [02:14:17.185 – 02:14:19.161] And what happens to them? [02:14:19.161 – 02:14:22.121] And unfortunately, it's not usually a happy ending. [02:14:22.121 – 02:14:25.081] You know, it's, it's a tragic ending mo- most often. [02:14:25.081 – 02:14:33.601] And, and so getting down to causes, conditions is that it, it's starting to get down to root causes. [02:14:33.601 – 02:14:36.721] You know, what, what we, uh, we call def- defects of character here. [02:14:36.721 – 02:14:41.021] And, um, those are the things that sort of drive me. [02:14:41.021 – 02:14:52.151] You know, they're, they're the things, they're, they're the things that made me a sitting duck, not particularly for alcoholism, but for tr- for having a, a,

[02:14:52.151 – 02:14:56.281] a, a way beyond average need for what alcohol did for me. [02:14:56.281 – 02:15:02.801] Because I, just like most everybody you've ever heard here, I was kind of an, a awkward, uh, dopey looking kid. [02:15:02.801 – 02:15:08.541] And, uh, and in my early environment, you know, I truly believe that you learn, you learn what you live. [02:15:08.541 – 02:15:12.261] And so I learned a lot of stuff, most of it bad news. [02:15:12.261 – 02:15:22.261] And, uh, and so I grew up with all of those kind of drives and, and things, and hang ups, and, and practices, and, and dishonesty, and all

[02:15:22.261 – 02:15:26.721] of the stuff that, that, that just made me a, a real ready candidate for alcoholism. [02:15:26.721 – 02:15:34.861] So when I started drinking, it just took off, and, um, it'd still be doing it had it not been for the fact that I was alcoholic, and it just, uh, absolutely. [02:15:34.861 – 02:15:40.361] So then we move into cause and condition, and, and the first step of which is that inventory. [02:15:40.361 – 02:15:42.281] You know, I, I did… [02:15:42.281 – 02:15:48.101] M- a lot of stuff I've done in AA, I've done impulsively in a way.

[02:15:48.101 – 02:15:53.761] You know, I mean, I was keenly aware of what that fourth step said before I ever got close to it. [02:15:53.761 – 02:15:58.201] But I knew there was gonna be a day of reckoning coming, and, and I wasn't too keen about it. [02:15:58.201 – 02:16:00.141] Uh, who is? [02:16:00.141 – 02:16:06.001] I mean, no- nobody wants to just bare their soul and all this stuff and- And so, but I knew it was there. [02:16:06.001 – 02:16:08.021] And I don't know. [02:16:08.021 – 02:16:18.081] Now, back then, y- y- y- one of the things, one of the f- few things that we do better now than we did in the old days is thoughtfully take people through

[02:16:18.081 – 02:16:18.841] the program. [02:16:18.841 – 02:16:20.211] Now, we- … [02:16:20.211 – 02:16:24.301] you know, there's some, some s- notion that we did it better way back yonder. [02:16:24.301 – 02:16:27.060] If we did, they hid it from me. [02:16:27.060 – 02:16:27.810] Mm-hmm. [02:16:27.810 – 02:16:29.481] Because I never saw it done. [02:16:29.481 – 02:16:32.801] You know, I never attended a Big Book meeting the first 20 years I was in AA. [02:16:32.801 – 02:16:35.481] Good reason, didn't have any. [02:16:35.481 – 02:16:36.321] You know? [02:16:36.321 – 02:16:40.440] We used the book, but mainly to beat folk over the head to get them in the car. [02:16:40.440 – 02:16:43.721] Yeah, but we di- we didn't have that kind of stuff.

[02:16:43.721 – 02:16:48.161] I never heard of anybody taking anybody through the steps, you know, for a lot of years. [02:16:48.161 – 02:16:48.481] You know? [02:16:48.481 – 02:16:52.021] And so, and, and, and some of those things we, I think we do better. [02:16:52.021 – 02:16:56.901] We overdo it sometime, and we get to thinking it's an educational process. [02:16:56.901 – 02:16:57.041] Mm. [02:16:57.041 – 02:17:01.681] That if we just learn all the words, that life's gonna fall into place, and that's a trap. [02:17:01.681 – 02:17:03.741] I think that's a trap. [02:17:03.741 – 02:17:11.001] And, and so, but if we use that book, you know, as a, as a guide for recovery, man, it's a…

[02:17:11.001 – 02:17:18.081] I was talking to somebody last night that in that fifth chapter it says, "Rarely have we seen a person fail." If, if Bill… [02:17:18.081 – 02:17:21.540] Somebody asked Bill one time if, if, if he changed one word, what would it be? [02:17:21.540 – 02:17:26.321] And, and he said, "Rarely." And, uh, it'd be never, and I agree with him 100%. [02:17:26.321 – 02:17:27.501] Never… [02:17:27.501 – 02:17:38.141] I've, working with people, just like we were talking about taking them through the book, people who give it 100% and genuinely do what's laid out in that book rarely

[02:17:38.141 – 02:17:38.581] fail. [02:17:38.581 – 02:17:39.521] Rarely fail. [02:17:39.521 – 02:17:40.501] No room for it. [02:17:40.501 – 02:17:41.381] No room. [02:17:41.381 – 02:17:43.981] Glad you made it back. [02:17:43.981 – 02:17:46.841] We needed Clearwater representation here. [02:17:46.841 – 02:17:49.621] They, uh… [02:17:49.621 – 02:17:54.221] So, so there, there she hangs, you know? [02:17:54.221 – 02:17:58.901] And, and I was, I sort of had that approach and avoidance thing like, like a lot of us do. [02:17:58.901 – 02:18:08.901] And we went to, went to a meeting one day, and a guy spoke for the ent- nobody planned it, but [02:18:08.901 – 02:18:11.261] a guy spoke for the entire meeting on the fourth step.

[02:18:11.261 – 02:18:14.961] And, uh, oh, great, Dusty, thank you very much. [02:18:14.961 – 02:18:21.421] Now, with that kind, generous act, he'll only do copies for half the group. [02:18:21.421 – 02:18:26.841] Yeah, thank you very much. [02:18:26.841 – 02:18:27.661] You're welcome. [02:18:27.661 – 02:18:27.821] Yeah. [02:18:27.821 – 02:18:30.401] So this guy, and, and I'm just innocent lamb. [02:18:30.401 – 02:18:35.841] I'm sitting there, and this guy starts laying out precisely, you know, how, how he did the inventory. [02:18:35.841 – 02:18:36.821] He wasn't giving a lecture. [02:18:36.821 – 02:18:39.980] He was telling his story, but he built it around the inventory. [02:18:39.980 – 02:18:45.301] And when he got through, I went back to my quarters.

[02:18:45.301 – 02:18:49.661] Said you'd call it cage is more like it, but, but I went back. [02:18:49.661 – 02:18:53.481] And, uh, I d- I had it on my mind. [02:18:53.481 – 02:18:56.321] I said, "You know, I think I'll try that." And- [02:18:56.533 – 02:18:59.313] Um, so I got out the old trusty legal pad. [02:18:59.313 – 02:19:04.453] And no material, we didn't have any guides and charts and stuff then. [02:19:04.453 – 02:19:12.113] But I just got out the old legal pad, and I started to write literally what happened. [02:19:12.113 – 02:19:13.333] Started to write. [02:19:13.333 – 02:19:14.893] I wrote about two…

[02:19:14.893 – 02:19:23.653] Now what I was gonna do was write, write a heart-rending story about what a victim of circumstances I was, and I really wasn't this kind of a guy. [02:19:23.653 – 02:19:29.263] You know, and I, I meant to do that, and I would've probably gladly published it to, uh, – … [02:19:29.263 – 02:19:35.053] to the world that I was a misunderstood dude, and I really was a good guy deeply underneath, you know. [02:19:35.053 – 02:19:36.693] Very deeply. [02:19:36.693 – 02:19:41.433] And so I started out to write, and I wrote…

[02:19:41.433 – 02:19:44.113] Now this is literally true, exactly what happened. [02:19:44.113 – 02:19:48.773] I wrote two lines of what I had in mind on that old legal pad. [02:19:48.773 – 02:19:58.433] And then with absolutely no thought, preparation, or intent, all at once it was as if I hit a wall or something. [02:19:58.433 – 02:20:06.873] And no thought to it, I just stopped the foolishness and all at once opened up, just opened up. [02:20:06.873 – 02:20:09.913] And I basically just poured out my heart, that's all. [02:20:09.913 – 02:20:13.993] It wasn't any thoughtful, analytical inventory, anything like that.

[02:20:13.993 – 02:20:18.073] What it was was a tortured young fella pouring out his life. [02:20:18.073 – 02:20:28.133] And so just the hand flew just trying to keep up with the torrent of things that I was looking at for the first time ever, because I was [02:20:28.133 – 02:20:33.293] always in such delusion about this kind of stuff that I didn't even come to grips with any of that stuff. [02:20:33.293 – 02:20:35.153] And, and things came out. [02:20:35.153 – 02:20:36.593] Now it wasn't analytical. [02:20:36.593 – 02:20:45.733] I, I guess a learned person would call it a kind of a cathartic experience, you know, that, that I was just un- uh, just unloading like the dam broke.

[02:20:45.733 – 02:20:48.013] And once it started, I couldn't stop. [02:20:48.013 – 02:20:53.053] And when I got through, I had three of those legal pad pages filled with stuff. [02:20:53.053 – 02:20:57.253] And, uh, I've never been the same man since then. [02:20:57.253 – 02:20:59.353] You know, that, that I started… [02:20:59.353 – 02:21:03.913] Now it wasn't, you know, as revealing as, as, as later. [02:21:03.913 – 02:21:08.093] Uh, you know, I'm, I'm not an analysis paralysis guy. [02:21:08.093 – 02:21:08.273] You know? [02:21:08.273 – 02:21:09.433] Now some, some people… [02:21:09.433 – 02:21:11.933] I, I'll just interject this while I forget it. [02:21:11.933 – 02:21:19.953] You know, I'm a great believer in the power of inventory, but I'm not a great fan of getting hooked on doing inventories.

[02:21:19.953 – 02:21:24.252] I, I know people who spend their entire recovery checking their pulse, you know, and how are you doing. [02:21:24.252 – 02:21:34.353] I was doing a workshop out in Utah a while back and, uh, I mentioned the fact, I think I was probably 49 or 50 years, I mentioned that I'd only taken [02:21:34.353 – 02:21:37.913] three full inventories in 49 or 50 year. [02:21:37.913 – 02:21:40.853] And, uh, nobody fainted or anything. [02:21:40.853 – 02:21:49.233] But there's one kind of yump- yuppie type of guy sitting, uh, right off to my right and, and I noticed he had a quizzical look.

[02:21:49.233 – 02:21:53.333] And I kinda looked at him and he said, "Were you serious? [02:21:53.333 – 02:22:03.673] You've only done three inventories in, in, uh, as long as you've been in AA?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "My God, I bet I've done 250." And, uh, [02:22:03.673 – 02:22:06.533] he said, "I've only been here 12 years," or something like that. [02:22:06.533 – 02:22:16.573] And, uh, he said, "I do an inventory every day of everything I do, and at the end of the day I evaluate it and all that." I said, "You got any

[02:22:16.573 – 02:22:26.593] hobbies?" He, he said, "No." And, and, uh, but he was aghast that, that, that that's [02:22:26.593 – 02:22:29.233] what I'd done, and I was aghast as that's what he did. [02:22:29.233 – 02:22:32.873] I mean, my God, talk about analysis paralysis, you know what I mean? [02:22:32.873 – 02:22:33.733] This guy. [02:22:33.733 – 02:22:37.093] So, but anyway, I'm not that way, you know. [02:22:37.093 – 02:22:39.313] And so I did that, that inventory. [02:22:39.313 – 02:22:41.053] And it was a crude-looking thing. [02:22:41.053 – 02:22:42.433] It, it wasn't fancy at all. [02:22:42.433 – 02:22:44.693] It wasn't analytical. [02:22:44.693 – 02:22:51.613] You know, I came back the s- the second one, I, I did my second one, that one was at about nine months that I did that one.

[02:22:51.613 – 02:22:56.333] And, uh, about six, uh, six years I, I did another. [02:22:56.333 – 02:23:06.343] And in this one I was a little more thoughtful, a little bit more aware and, and I started to translate those, those, those sort of cathartic things into what [02:23:06.343 – 02:23:12.002] that meant in terms of, of relationships and, uh, and, uh, the, the things that had me harpooned. [02:23:12.002 – 02:23:13.743] You know, so that came later. [02:23:13.743 – 02:23:18.352] And then I did one probably 25 or 30 years later. [02:23:18.352 – 02:23:20.773] They were really situational.

[02:23:20.773 – 02:23:28.633] I just had a bunch of stuff going on, and it was primarily it was just some ethical and some kind of stuff, but, but it just had my mind a little cloudy about some stuff. [02:23:28.633 – 02:23:30.493] And I did, you know, an inventory. [02:23:30.493 – 02:23:32.313] And these are the ones with Fifth Steps. [02:23:32.313 – 02:23:34.473] And so those are the only ones I've done. [02:23:34.473 – 02:23:43.353] And, um, and then, and that third one was just about the, uh, just dealing with the sort of current cloud that was, uh, hanging around I didn't, didn't need.

[02:23:43.353 – 02:23:51.113] And so that first one, when I got through, I can't tell you how important it was. [02:23:51.113 – 02:23:53.833] It was more important than either of the other two. [02:23:53.833 – 02:24:03.913] Far more important than the analytical, more important than the situational, because it was a fundamental coming to grips with who I am. [02:24:03.913 – 02:24:08.373] And I saw stuff about myself that I'd never thought of. [02:24:08.373 – 02:24:11.753] And it was, uh, and it was news to me. [02:24:11.753 – 02:24:18.833] I never had really thought about, you know, the, the, all of the stuff in my life and, you know, the places where I'd done injury and all this kind of stuff.

[02:24:18.833 – 02:24:22.853] And, and so it was a hugely important thing for me. [02:24:22.853 – 02:24:32.913] And, um, you wouldn't want to publish it as a how-to-do thing, but it, it fit me, and it's the most valuable one I've ever done, because it came from deep down [02:24:32.913 – 02:24:36.553] and not out of my head, and, and tremendously important. [02:24:36.553 – 02:24:41.573] And, um, that was a brand new kind of a, a deal for me. [02:24:41.573 – 02:24:43.633] I never had really stopped and thought. [02:24:43.633 – 02:24:47.073] You know, I was one of those guys who'd won a…

[02:24:47.073 – 02:24:56.813] Like, I'm not the only one that's ever, ever done it this way, but I was one of those guys who, who sort of, sort of thought, "Well, this stuff's all nice, but I never really… [02:24:56.813 – 02:25:00.393] " Uh, there, I never really hurt as many people as I thought I did. [02:25:00.393 – 02:25:02.273] Like, I never hurt my family. [02:25:02.273 – 02:25:08.533] I had the decency to be gone, you know, that, uh, so they didn't wor- trouble with me. [02:25:08.533 – 02:25:14.513] Amazing what a little insight and awareness will do.

[02:25:14.513 – 02:25:22.793] How much more damage could you do to a mother than rob her … [02:25:22.793 – 02:25:25.693] excuse me, than rob her of a son? [02:25:25.693 – 02:25:28.793] You know, huge… [02:25:28.793 – 02:25:30.053] Excuse me just a minute. [02:25:30.053 – 02:25:30.573] I'll get this. [02:25:30.573 – 02:25:33.713] Excuse me, Jim. [02:25:33.713 – 02:25:34.793] Bleep it good. [02:25:34.793 – 02:25:35.793] That… [02:25:35.793 – 02:25:44.833] But that's a huge, huge damage, you know, because most of, most of, uh, my life from 16 on, my mother never knew where I was. [02:25:44.833 – 02:25:49.093] I mean, I didn't have the courtesy or consideration to even call. [02:25:49.093 – 02:25:52.433] She didn't know if I was alive or dead.

[02:25:52.433 – 02:25:54.493] I know she was concerned. [02:25:54.493 – 02:25:55.933] Nothing. [02:25:55.933 – 02:25:56.952] Absolutely nothing. [02:25:56.952 – 02:26:07.353] And so rather than having the, what I experienced with our children, watching them turn into humans and then into, uh, you know, adults [02:26:07.353 – 02:26:09.253] and responsible adults. [02:26:09.253 – 02:26:10.273] What a thrill, eh? [02:26:10.273 – 02:26:11.013] What a thrill. [02:26:11.013 – 02:26:12.213] I denied that. [02:26:12.213 – 02:26:17.633] So stuff started to come home that was deeply, deeply troubling. [02:26:17.633 – 02:26:27.763] And, um, so when I got through with that, uh, that I mentioned yesterday about what the impact that had, [02:26:27.763 – 02:26:35.832] that was the point where I knew without any reservation whatsoever that I was alcoholic.

[02:26:35.832 – 02:26:37.513] I knew that, and I… [02:26:37.513 – 02:26:41.473] And that was the term, that I had an illness called alcoholism. [02:26:41.473 – 02:26:47.093] Not a bad drunk, not a bad actor, not a real alcoholic. [02:26:47.093 – 02:26:48.353] I'm an alcoholic. [02:26:48.353 – 02:26:53.473] I have an illness whose nature is if I take a drink, I'm in deep trouble. [02:26:53.473 – 02:26:57.373] Never doubted it since. [02:26:57.373 – 02:27:04.843] That was tremendously important because as, as I mentioned, that gave me the, the, the, the real commitment to long-term sobriety. [02:27:04.843 – 02:27:14.893] And so it was tremendously important, not just in terms of insight and awareness, but in terms of how it deepened my hold on, on how much trouble I was in

[02:27:14.893 – 02:27:17.833] and how much I wanted to get better. [02:27:17.833 – 02:27:18.633] And so I… [02:27:18.633 – 02:27:20.393] Tremendously important for me. [02:27:20.393 – 02:27:25.613] And, uh, yeah, I knew what the fifth step was. [02:27:25.613 – 02:27:29.453] I was always a pretty decent reader and, and I'd, I'd read all the materials. [02:27:29.453 – 02:27:33.413] I had, I had some idea about where we were headed with this wi- witch hunt. [02:27:33.413 – 02:27:38.293] And, uh, now I was an isolated guy. [02:27:38.293 – 02:27:39.193] I really was. [02:27:39.193 – 02:27:41.252] I make a lot of noise, uh, you know, now. [02:27:41.252 – 02:27:44.513] I made a lot of noise then, but, but only when I was drunk.

[02:27:44.513 – 02:27:46.333] I was an isolated guy. [02:27:46.333 – 02:27:48.752] I would never let anybody know me. [02:27:48.752 – 02:27:49.353] Nobody. [02:27:49.353 – 02:27:51.413] Never let anybody close to me. [02:27:51.413 – 02:27:55.393] I wouldn't let anybody give me anything, even after I got in AA. [02:27:55.393 – 02:27:58.833] Because if I let them give me something, guess what? [02:27:58.833 – 02:27:59.913] They come with it. [02:27:59.913 – 02:28:01.493] They come with it. [02:28:01.493 – 02:28:02.793] They own me a little bit. [02:28:02.793 – 02:28:04.553] So I was that kind of a guy. [02:28:04.553 – 02:28:10.913] I was just shut down, shut off, and, uh, and, and somebody that just did not function very well.

[02:28:10.913 – 02:28:15.773] And those things started to become very clear in the course of that inventory. [02:28:15.773 – 02:28:21.032] Well, I knew that fifth step was right behind that. [02:28:21.032 – 02:28:28.953] And for a totally isolated guy, and some of you might have been in the same category, that is not peculiar to me, I know that. [02:28:28.953 – 02:28:39.813] Starting to even fathom the notion of opening up and letting another human really see who I am, [02:28:39.813 – 02:28:40.893] that was scary. [02:28:40.893 – 02:28:42.033] That was scary. [02:28:42.033 – 02:28:44.073] I didn't want to do a, a fifth step.

[02:28:44.073 – 02:28:47.833] Did not want to, but I needed to. [02:28:47.833 – 02:28:50.113] And, and, and I went around with that. [02:28:50.113 – 02:28:52.873] At that time, I didn't really have a sponsor. [02:28:52.873 – 02:28:56.213] There was another guy that was locked up in there that was a real good friend. [02:28:56.213 – 02:29:02.622] He functioned as a sponsor, but, um, I, I just somehow I couldn't bring myself to call him that. [02:29:02.622 – 02:29:05.313] But he was a great friend and a wise counselor. [02:29:05.313 – 02:29:06.873] One, one of the wisest counselors I've ever known. [02:29:06.873 – 02:29:07.633] He wasn't a counselor.

[02:29:07.633 – 02:29:10.833] But he was a, a, a, a good solid guy. [02:29:10.833 – 02:29:14.313] And he was, he was working with me a little bit at that time. [02:29:14.313 – 02:29:15.613] We were just good friends. [02:29:15.613 – 02:29:21.873] And, uh, I started discussing with him who I might take this little step with. [02:29:21.873 – 02:29:24.933] And, uh, there were a lot of choices around. [02:29:24.933 – 02:29:27.813] They had 6,300 people locked up in there with me. [02:29:27.813 – 02:29:32.593] And I think any of them would have just been glad to sit and listen to that.

[02:29:32.593 – 02:29:34.913] But somehow I didn't trust that crowd. [02:29:34.913 – 02:29:35.133] That… [02:29:35.133 – 02:29:37.633] They, uh, they, they did not, did not want- [02:29:37.741 – 02:29:38.761] From my heart, you know? [02:29:38.761 – 02:29:41.281] And so I wrote that off, you know. [02:29:41.281 – 02:29:44.861] And, and, uh, then started looking at all the staff, you know. [02:29:44.861 – 02:29:48.081] And there were a lot of good, good folks making a living there. [02:29:48.081 – 02:29:49.051] Yeah. [02:29:49.051 – 02:29:53.481] And I'm sure most of them would've been willing to listen to a guy very sold, you know. [02:29:53.481 – 02:29:57.721] But there's none of my trustees, 'cause those guys control my life.

[02:29:57.721 – 02:30:01.061] And I- they already know too much about me already. [02:30:01.061 – 02:30:04.651] And if I'm gonna tell them more, they may- I may never get out of that place, you know. [02:30:04.651 – 02:30:07.201] So I w- I wouldn't even think about staff, you know. [02:30:07.201 – 02:30:12.541] Chaplains, I hadn't even got close to, to entering that kind of a venue yet. [02:30:12.541 – 02:30:21.701] And, uh, so, now brain dead I am, I'm was discussing all this with my friend. [02:30:21.701 – 02:30:27.161] It took me two months to figure out I'm talking to who I ought to talk to.

[02:30:27.161 – 02:30:30.361] Genius at work. [02:30:30.361 – 02:30:32.221] God knows. [02:30:32.221 – 02:30:42.461] So I said, "Would, would you do it?" He said, "I thought you'd never ask." And so, so, and you know, see, we ought to be real, real thoughtful about who, [02:30:42.461 – 02:30:44.901] where, you know, get the right setting and all that. [02:30:44.901 – 02:30:47.261] Don't take that too seriously. [02:30:47.261 – 02:30:49.761] You know, I mean, it doesn't have to be the Sistine Chapel. [02:30:49.761 – 02:31:00.141] The, um- We did that fifth step sitting on what looked like a park bench on a prison yard

[02:31:00.141 – 02:31:03.481] with 6,300 yo-yos wandering around. [02:31:03.481 – 02:31:06.891] Feel like taking you to Coney Island, you know. [02:31:06.891 – 02:31:09.261] But, but nobody paying any attention. [02:31:09.261 – 02:31:13.581] It's just two dudes sitting over there talking with some earnestness, you know. [02:31:13.581 – 02:31:14.011] And that's… [02:31:14.011 – 02:31:17.201] So you don't have to have pristine condition. [02:31:17.201 – 02:31:18.921] That, uh, just don't yell, you know. [02:31:18.921 – 02:31:27.101] And so, and so I opened up, and I shared with that man stuff I'd never shared with anybody. [02:31:27.101 – 02:31:31.181] When we got through, he knew me far better than my mother knew me.

[02:31:31.181 – 02:31:32.081] Far better. [02:31:32.081 – 02:31:36.501] And, um, he's the only human that had ever heard that stuff. [02:31:36.501 – 02:31:39.421] I was not somebody that opened up. [02:31:39.421 – 02:31:41.581] And for me to do that, I had to be driven. [02:31:41.581 – 02:31:46.481] And, and, and, and man, what a, what a tremendous experience. [02:31:46.481 – 02:31:47.911] What a tremendous experience. [02:31:47.911 – 02:31:52.101] That my, my experience was exactly what it says in that book. [02:31:52.101 – 02:31:55.201] When we got through with that, I was elated. [02:31:55.201 – 02:31:57.561] You know, I was, I was d- I was free. [02:31:57.561 – 02:32:01.301] I, I was, and, and, uh, I'd never felt like that before.

[02:32:01.301 – 02:32:12.461] Nothing to hide, you know, to, would broadcast it, but, but I'm, I'm, but I think what it constituted for me, aside [02:32:12.461 – 02:32:22.921] from just the thing of, of, of getting it out of the way so I could move on, what it, what it accomplished for me, it was like the crack in the wall of isolation, eh? [02:32:22.921 – 02:32:24.821] The, the crack in the wall of isolation. [02:32:24.821 – 02:32:32.481] Where, you know, for once, for the first time, you know, the tightest prison I was ever in was the prison of my life.

[02:32:32.481 – 02:32:38.461] I'd been in prison all my life because I wouldn't let anybody in, and I couldn't get out. [02:32:38.461 – 02:32:42.281] And here's a human that has come through the crack. [02:32:42.281 – 02:32:44.460] That was the first crack. [02:32:44.460 – 02:32:50.501] Now, I'm about as close to an open book as, as I know how to get, you know? [02:32:50.501 – 02:32:51.741] That's freedom. [02:32:51.741 – 02:32:58.201] But that's how it started, you know, with just a little bit of a, of a beginning, and then lo and behold. [02:32:58.201 – 02:33:08.161] And when we got through, I went back to my cell and, um, just like it says, take down the book, take a look, review what's happened.

[02:33:08.161 – 02:33:12.601] You know, I've gone through the first five steps, what's happened. [02:33:12.601 – 02:33:15.681] And did I do well? [02:33:15.681 – 02:33:17.460] Is the work solid? [02:33:17.460 – 02:33:20.521] I- is, is this something I can count on? [02:33:20.521 – 02:33:22.921] You know, just, just sort of evaluate the process. [02:33:22.921 – 02:33:26.020] And I had to give myself a pretty decent grade. [02:33:26.020 – 02:33:28.761] I'd come a lot further than I intended. [02:33:28.761 – 02:33:32.681] You know, I, I didn't even really intend to make this a life, you know. [02:33:32.681 – 02:33:35.821] I was, I was in it for a while to see what happened.

[02:33:35.821 – 02:33:38.541] I didn't intend to stay. [02:33:38.541 – 02:33:42.861] I know one time, uh, I was incredibly young then. [02:33:42.861 – 02:33:44.481] For back then, I was incredibly young. [02:33:44.481 – 02:33:45.681] Now I seem like an old man. [02:33:45.681 – 02:33:54.021] I was 24, and there weren't any 24 years of old people around that I saw for a long time. [02:33:54.021 – 02:33:55.021] God knows. [02:33:55.021 – 02:34:00.241] I, I got so tired of people ooh-ing and aah-ing over me and at, at seeing me in a meeting. [02:34:00.241 – 02:34:01.461] And I've always looked young. [02:34:01.461 – 02:34:03.561] You know, most people don't believe I'm 85 now.

[02:34:03.561 – 02:34:04.991] No. [02:34:04.991 – 02:34:05.941] God, I hope not. [02:34:05.941 – 02:34:12.801] Let's see, 52 years sober, that means I'm, what, 63. [02:34:12.801 – 02:34:16.061] Anyway, somewhere between 63 and 85. [02:34:16.061 – 02:34:18.041] But they, uh… [02:34:18.041 – 02:34:28.260] But you know, you know, if you're there and this, you know, before I started to settle in and became a storm trooper, but, but when I was in that kind of, kind of hazy zone about the coming, [02:34:28.261 – 02:34:30.891] sunlight's coming up, but it ain't up yet, you know. [02:34:30.891 – 02:34:36.941] And people would pat on me and say, "My, you're so lucky." You know, lu- yeah, real luck, eh?

[02:34:36.941 – 02:34:38.461] You know, I'm 24 years old. [02:34:38.461 – 02:34:40.961] I'm in a maximum custody penitentiary. [02:34:40.961 – 02:34:45.861] I've got a history that, that I, I couldn't even stand to think about, you know. [02:34:45.861 – 02:34:47.521] And, and real lucky. [02:34:47.521 – 02:34:48.861] I'm on a roll here, you know. [02:34:48.861 – 02:34:50.141] You know, let's get it on. [02:34:50.141 – 02:34:56.191] That- And, uh, and I'm thinking about, you know, what does recovery look like? [02:34:56.191 – 02:34:58.441] You know, what's my life gonna become? [02:34:58.441 – 02:35:02.261] And, and I swear to God, it, it looked like a, a dark tunnel.

[02:35:02.261 – 02:35:03.921] It didn't look like sunshine. [02:35:03.921 – 02:35:05.081] It looked like a dark tunnel. [02:35:05.081 – 02:35:14.581] And, uh, I remember one time a guy was patting me on the head and, uh, telling me how lucky I was and, and he just almost went into a rapture. [02:35:14.581 – 02:35:16.461] You know, he just so thrilled about me. [02:35:16.461 – 02:35:26.461] And, uh, I'm looking at him, and I'm saying, "My God." And he's telling me, he said, "Do you know that at your age, you could realistically look forward to as much as 50

[02:35:26.461 – 02:35:28.071] years here?" Oh. [02:35:28.071 – 02:35:33.641] And he just swooning over it, and I'm thinking, "My God, what if it works?" You know what? [02:35:33.641 – 02:35:37.361] I'll, I'll never get out of this thing, man. [02:35:37.361 – 02:35:40.261] And so, I mean, talk about spooky and… [02:35:40.261 – 02:35:44.421] But anyway, that was kind of the way I felt felt about that thing. [02:35:44.421 – 02:35:51.793] And, uh- So, you know, just having that kind of a thing where I could come out and say, you know, that, "Yeah, we're doing okay. [02:35:51.793 – 02:35:53.153] We're, we're doing okay.

[02:35:53.153 – 02:35:59.113] So far so good." And still had a long ways to go, but, uh, you know, the steps take me through. [02:35:59.113 – 02:36:04.693] And, uh, so that was tremendous, a tremendously important place. [02:36:04.693 – 02:36:09.753] It, uh, I don't, I don't look at anything as a, as the most important. [02:36:09.753 – 02:36:11.813] If I had to pick a most important, it'd be the first one. [02:36:11.813 – 02:36:20.633] But these are all part of the process, and, uh, I'm a great believer of, of like in the 12 to 12, 12 that she's writ- beaten on that.

[02:36:20.633 – 02:36:23.173] In that maybe there's a… [02:36:23.173 – 02:36:27.233] I didn't see it for a long time, but there, in that preface to that, it's pretty well quoted now. [02:36:27.233 – 02:36:30.773] But when I first saw that, it just rung a bell with me. [02:36:30.773 – 02:36:36.193] Well, in the preface it says, "Our steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature. [02:36:36.193 – 02:36:46.593] Which if practiced as a way of life, will expel the obsession to drink, and enable the sufferer [02:36:46.593 – 02:36:51.933] to become happily and usefully whole." Absolutely true.

[02:36:51.933 – 02:36:57.853] And that's to me is, you know, people ask me, uh, today I don't mechanically work steps. [02:36:57.853 – 02:36:59.373] I don't. [02:36:59.373 – 02:37:02.713] Unless I've got some specific purpose in mind. [02:37:02.713 – 02:37:05.973] You know, I don't say I think I'll do a step three on this or a step four. [02:37:05.973 – 02:37:08.053] I pract- I don't have to. [02:37:08.053 – 02:37:09.993] I practice these principles. [02:37:09.993 – 02:37:12.133] That's what they are, as a way of life. [02:37:12.133 – 02:37:14.553] Tradition, a different story. [02:37:14.553 – 02:37:24.373] Now I, you know, I practice the principles traditionally, but I use them very deliberately, and, and I will use a particular tradition to deal with a particular situation.

[02:37:24.373 – 02:37:27.493] I use them in every area of my life. [02:37:27.493 – 02:37:31.333] My kids know more about AA tradition than most members. [02:37:31.333 – 02:37:32.123] Mm-hmm. [02:37:32.123 – 02:37:34.273] Yeah, they do 'cause they grew up with it. [02:37:34.273 – 02:37:34.773] Yeah. [02:37:34.773 – 02:37:41.393] We do, um, well anyway, that's, that's a whole different story, but it's… [02:37:41.393 – 02:37:42.633] Well, it's not a whole different story. [02:37:42.633 – 02:37:46.273] It, it, it's a group of principles practiced as a way of life enable you to become the… [02:37:46.273 – 02:37:49.973] M- my family grew up with, with AA. [02:37:49.973 – 02:37:51.373] You know, my kids have…

[02:37:51.373 – 02:37:55.012] I was an old, old-time member by the time they, they were born. [02:37:55.012 – 02:37:56.753] So they grew up with it. [02:37:56.753 – 02:38:00.393] And I, I was telling young Mike on the way in yesterday, we were talking about our kids. [02:38:00.393 – 02:38:05.853] And, uh, I was always real antsy about, you know, with, about my kids. [02:38:05.853 – 02:38:09.113] 'Cause you know, I mean, I've, mine is not a beautiful story. [02:38:09.113 – 02:38:17.513] And I thought, "Man alive, someday these folks are gonna have to learn who their father really is," and not that nice fellow that's around here smiling.

[02:38:17.513 – 02:38:20.473] You know, they, they're gonna have to live with that thing as part of their story too. [02:38:20.473 – 02:38:24.113] And, uh, I was always real antsy about that, you know? [02:38:24.113 – 02:38:31.523] And I was also real concerned that I not clone them into the AA army just because they're my kids, you know. [02:38:31.523 – 02:38:34.913] I didn't want to drag them around and make them learn the Serenity Prayer and all this kind of stuff. [02:38:34.913 – 02:38:38.753] I wanted them to be free to, to grow, grow up to who they wanna be.

[02:38:38.753 – 02:38:41.593] I was always careful about where I would put my… [02:38:41.593 – 02:38:44.853] If you go into, I, I got one room I call an office. [02:38:44.853 – 02:38:46.613] My wife calls it a junk heap. [02:38:46.613 – 02:38:49.293] But she doesn't, she doesn't understand filing. [02:38:49.293 – 02:38:50.233] She's a girl. [02:38:50.233 – 02:38:52.693] She's… [02:38:52.693 – 02:38:54.733] But that's my, that's my room. [02:38:54.733 – 02:38:58.793] Now if you go in there, you'd think you were in the auto, or the AA ar- archives. [02:38:58.793 – 02:39:00.173] Uh, because it l- it is. [02:39:00.173 – 02:39:03.393] But I wouldn't put that in the rest of the house.

[02:39:03.393 – 02:39:05.332] Because that's their home too. [02:39:05.332 – 02:39:07.373] Uh, it's not just mine. [02:39:07.373 – 02:39:07.693] Yeah. [02:39:07.693 – 02:39:15.853] And it, so it was that kind of a, of sensitivity was, was sort of important in, uh, in practicing these principles as a way of life. [02:39:15.853 – 02:39:18.253] That I've gotta be careful about that. [02:39:18.253 – 02:39:25.493] I was always real concerned about, I know this is veering off just a little bit, but it kinda relates to that whole business about getting these principles working. [02:39:25.493 – 02:39:30.273] Uh, about how I was gonna confront that, uh, when, when we had to deal with it.

[02:39:30.273 – 02:39:37.033] It wa- one, one n- one night I was, I was in town and I was, the, the go folks at a local group had asked me to come over and speak at a meeting. [02:39:37.033 – 02:39:39.593] So I started out, my son was eight years old. [02:39:39.593 – 02:39:45.393] Started out and he said, "Hey Dad, where you going?" I said, "Be back shortly. [02:39:45.393 – 02:39:54.653] I'm just going over to a meeting in Aberdeen." And, uh, he said, "Wait a minute, I'll go with you." Well, I knew it was coming, but I didn't want it to be that soon, you know.

[02:39:54.653 – 02:39:56.813] So I looked to my wife for help. [02:39:56.813 – 02:40:03.973] She said, "Well." I said, "Thank you very much." And, uh, so I carried it. [02:40:03.973 – 02:40:04.973] Now I was antsy. [02:40:04.973 – 02:40:09.893] I really was antsy because, you know, I mean, I didn't know how the boy was gonna react. [02:40:09.893 – 02:40:13.713] You know, if he's gonna be embarrassed or humiliated or, or what. [02:40:13.713 – 02:40:14.792] You know, I had no idea. [02:40:14.792 – 02:40:18.173] And, and I didn't, I don't think I soft pedaled anything. [02:40:18.173 – 02:40:18.853] I just- [02:40:19.222 – 02:40:22.202] Straight up did what my primary purpose was and, and did.

[02:40:22.202 – 02:40:26.542] On the way back, it w- it was interesting, he never said a word. [02:40:26.542 – 02:40:28.902] Never said a word all the way home. [02:40:28.902 – 02:40:30.852] About 10 minutes . [02:40:30.852 – 02:40:37.162] And, uh, and I'm s- I'm g- I am really trying to get a clue of, of what he's thinking. [02:40:37.162 – 02:40:44.082] When we got home, we had read, th- they had read some material, and he, he, he asked where that was. [02:40:44.082 – 02:40:47.142] He went and he read that material that had been read at the podium.

[02:40:47.142 – 02:40:50.162] And no comment, just read it. [02:40:50.162 – 02:40:57.482] And then I got a m- a, a memorabilia box, you know, where I've got a lot of medallions and, you know, things that have just accrued over the years. [02:40:57.482 – 02:41:03.522] And he went and got that, and he started stacking up medallions and stuff like that. [02:41:03.522 – 02:41:09.582] That was a pr- That was the proudest boy in the southeastern United States. [02:41:09.582 – 02:41:11.762] And he, he thought his dad was the president. [02:41:11.762 – 02:41:15.102] You know, he was- At least to me, anyway.

[02:41:15.102 – 02:41:20.162] And, and, uh, but yeah, you just never know because that could have just as easily gone the other way, eh? [02:41:20.162 – 02:41:22.042] He could have been traumatized or whatever. [02:41:22.042 – 02:41:24.482] But my, my kids grew up with that, you know. [02:41:24.482 – 02:41:29.962] And they literally know a lot about tradition because we use them in our home. [02:41:29.962 – 02:41:33.402] We use them very deliberately to do many things. [02:41:33.402 – 02:41:33.682] And it… [02:41:33.682 – 02:41:35.562] And we're not cloning them into the Army, you know. [02:41:35.562 – 02:41:38.522] But, but we use these principles as a way of life.

[02:41:38.522 – 02:41:41.702] You know, then that's what it is about steps, about using them as a way of life. [02:41:41.702 – 02:41:47.342] And so anyway, that was the kinda, kinda stuff that, that started to come. [02:41:47.342 – 02:41:57.622] And so s- jumping back into that, that inventory and kinda opening up process, that, um, that then [02:41:57.622 – 02:42:00.122] brought us to six and seven. [02:42:00.122 – 02:42:07.082] And, and when I first got there, I, I honestly thought that six and seven were filler material. [02:42:07.082 – 02:42:11.602] You know how sometimes when you're writing, you just throw in a little extra paragraph to make it come out even?

[02:42:11.602 – 02:42:12.592] I… [02:42:12.592 – 02:42:13.682] That's what I thought it was. [02:42:13.682 – 02:42:17.962] It sounded like a recitation of two and three, you know. [02:42:17.962 – 02:42:19.382] And I thought it was a no-brainer. [02:42:19.382 – 02:42:21.342] You know, they're d- just talking the same stuff. [02:42:21.342 – 02:42:25.782] Until I really saw what it said . [02:42:25.782 – 02:42:35.982] And, uh, you remember that guy I was talking about who started to learn to pray and the third step prayer, and then he'd pray and then overdo it, and then pray, uh, afraid [02:42:35.982 – 02:42:37.342] it might get answered, you know?

[02:42:37.342 – 02:42:44.342] And, uh, got to six, and when I got into it, that step took on a whole different meaning. [02:42:44.342 – 02:42:46.261] It was not filler material. [02:42:46.261 – 02:42:53.342] What it was, was the, for my money, the most important transition there is in the program. [02:42:53.342 – 02:42:57.362] Because we, you know, we got the foundation going with the first three. [02:42:57.362 – 02:43:07.582] We've got causes and conditions where we've taken a look at what this illness looks like, what these defects of character are that drive our w- our life

[02:43:07.582 – 02:43:09.602] in such a strange kind of a pattern. [02:43:09.602 – 02:43:11.942] And, and we've taken a look at those. [02:43:11.942 – 02:43:19.582] Now the question becomes, says we were entirely ready to have God remove these defects of character. [02:43:19.582 – 02:43:23.582] That's a pretty sobering kind of a deal. [02:43:23.582 – 02:43:25.142] Uh, and I… [02:43:25.142 – 02:43:28.042] Do I really want to get well? [02:43:28.042 – 02:43:31.702] Do I really want to get rid of all these defects of character? [02:43:31.702 – 02:43:35.922] I don't know about you, but I wasn't sure that I wa- that I was. [02:43:35.922 – 02:43:41.282] You know, I've always told you I was somebody, I wanted to get better, but I didn't wanna get good.

[02:43:41.282 – 02:43:44.142] You know, I mean, I, I still wanted to be a little raunchy, I think. [02:43:44.142 – 02:43:47.122] And, uh- And, uh am I gonna have to quit cussing? [02:43:47.122 – 02:43:49.282] I mean, my God, it's ridiculous. [02:43:49.282 – 02:43:52.262] So, so when I got to that thing, it gave me great pause. [02:43:52.262 – 02:43:53.442] And, and I was… [02:43:53.442 – 02:43:59.862] It's, uh, it really is a decision point of either I've seen what it is, you know, I've admit that I'm beat. [02:43:59.862 – 02:44:02.602] I've taken a look at what drives it. [02:44:02.602 – 02:44:05.302] Now the question is, do you wanna get well?

[02:44:05.302 – 02:44:13.582] A- and I mentioned yesterday that when I'm taking people through the steps, this is normally where I lose them, if I lose them. [02:44:13.582 – 02:44:23.742] Because it comes to that point, and many people are just not willing to make the bold step and get into those things of, [02:44:23.742 – 02:44:26.442] of, of, of making right the wrongs. [02:44:26.442 – 02:44:27.882] And it gets scary. [02:44:27.882 – 02:44:37.882] And a lot of people, the ones I've lost, almost invariably, if they don't just go get drunk, will wind up getting into a pattern

[02:44:37.882 – 02:44:40.182] of just survival. [02:44:40.182 – 02:44:41.622] Just survival. [02:44:41.622 – 02:44:47.822] Of just sort of bouncing around from one meeting to another and having nice conversations and then leaving and… [02:44:47.822 – 02:44:49.602] Uh, and that's, that's where they go. [02:44:49.602 – 02:44:59.022] And, and what that does is it just suspends the process of recovery for my money, and it gets to a point of survival. [02:44:59.022 – 02:45:09.342] Now, I, I, I emphasized it a good bit yesterday that in this program, there is no, no monitor or somebody [02:45:09.342 – 02:45:11.602] that's gonna chastise you if you don't do something.

[02:45:11.602 – 02:45:17.602] You know, we've got two, two eq- two equalizers, two disciplinarians here. [02:45:17.602 – 02:45:19.322] One's God, the other is booze. [02:45:19.322 – 02:45:22.162] Those are what discipline us, nobody else. [02:45:22.162 – 02:45:26.562] And just because I say something with some emphasis or whatever, doesn't make it right. [02:45:26.562 – 02:45:28.702] It just makes it what I believe. [02:45:28.702 – 02:45:38.722] And, and, and so when people get into that and, uh, and they get into this pattern of just not drinking and hanging out and going to m- meetings, um, they get into a

[02:45:38.722 – 02:45:39.662] survival mode. [02:45:39.662 – 02:45:47.942] And, and, and anybody that's willing to settle for survival and just not drink a day at a time, fine, more power. [02:45:47.942 – 02:45:52.042] But that's all it is, is just not drinking. [02:45:52.042 – 02:45:54.842] And then where does the restoration come? [02:45:54.842 – 02:45:56.402] Where does the freedom come? [02:45:56.402 – 02:45:57.642] Where does the peace come? [02:45:57.642 – 02:46:01.142] And, and obviously, it's, it's not gonna come. [02:46:01.142 – 02:46:06.482] And the thing about not drinking doesn't help alcoholism. [02:46:06.482 – 02:46:09.362] Because alcoholism is what drives me. [02:46:09.362 – 02:46:11.902] It's what, what pushes me in such a warped direction.

[02:46:11.902 – 02:46:20.732] And all of that stuff that's there and is built up, added with the, the harms and all that, that stuff will be an anchor that I'll drag forever. [02:46:20.732 – 02:46:24.186] If I don't take the actions to be free. [02:46:24.186 – 02:46:28.266] And they w- and, and defects of character don't die of old age. [02:46:28.266 – 02:46:29.246] Mm-hmm. [02:46:29.246 – 02:46:30.346] They get worse. [02:46:30.346 – 02:46:32.106] They don't die of old age. [02:46:32.106 – 02:46:39.986] And, and so to me, that's, that's, that's what's so important about that, that, that transition in six and seven.

[02:46:39.986 – 02:46:43.166] Do I really wanna get well or don't I? [02:46:43.166 – 02:46:44.906] And if I don't, don't kid myself. [02:46:44.906 – 02:46:45.236] You know? [02:46:45.236 – 02:46:46.566] It, it's not that complicated. [02:46:46.566 – 02:46:47.486] All you wanna do is hang on. [02:46:47.486 – 02:46:49.526] And many people do. [02:46:49.526 – 02:46:51.326] Many people do. [02:46:51.326 – 02:46:54.646] As a matter of fact, I'm not sure that the overwhelming majority don't. [02:46:54.646 – 02:47:04.566] And getting into real purposeful action and tearing through the, the, the stuff, each, each one of us has our own prerogative on, on what we're gonna do with that.

[02:47:04.566 – 02:47:10.586] Uh, but I think it's an awf- sometime we, we, we skip by just 'cause those steps are short. [02:47:10.586 – 02:47:12.786] It seems they're unimportant. [02:47:12.786 – 02:47:15.786] If it's really important, you don't need to say much. [02:47:15.786 – 02:47:18.786] No explanation required. [02:47:18.786 – 02:47:20.306] I either wanna change or I don't. [02:47:20.306 – 02:47:26.666] And then if I do, then, then I ask my higher power to remove these. [02:47:26.666 – 02:47:33.466] And, and, and, and, and, and my higher power does remove them, but the way he does it is with the next five steps.

[02:47:33.466 – 02:47:35.966] You know, that's the answer to the prayer. [02:47:35.966 – 02:47:36.276] You know? [02:47:36.276 – 02:47:38.566] It's not some mystical b- burning bush. [02:47:38.566 – 02:47:40.406] It, it's a, okay, here it is. [02:47:40.406 – 02:47:43.346] Here's the roadmap, you know, and this is the way to freedom. [02:47:43.346 – 02:47:45.206] And so I'd… [02:47:45.206 – 02:47:51.626] For those of the tr- the tremendously important, uh, uh, kinda steps, at least it's short in, in how they're written. [02:47:51.626 – 02:47:56.026] Uh, but my God, what a, what a tr- tremendous point. [02:47:56.026 – 02:48:06.066] Like, in w- in, in, in dealing with defects of character, I, I like simple analogies that, um,

[02:48:06.066 – 02:48:09.686] you know, when I stood at that point, I was… [02:48:09.686 – 02:48:17.266] If, if you had, if you'd s- if, if, if, if, if you could've seen me as how my life was shaped when I got here, if defa… [02:48:17.266 – 02:48:18.986] You, you remember the old balance scale? [02:48:18.986 – 02:48:25.506] I, I don't know if they're still around or not, but the old balance scale where you put a pound of butter here and something over here and that. [02:48:25.506 – 02:48:26.176] You balance the scale. [02:48:26.176 – 02:48:35.806] If, if, if you looked here of how my life was constituted, if you looked at defects of character, it would've been over here, and it would've been like that.

[02:48:35.806 – 02:48:39.626] If I hadn't had defects of character, I would've had no character. [02:48:39.626 – 02:48:41.186] I mean, that's all there was. [02:48:41.186 – 02:48:41.775] And I … [02:48:41.775 – 02:48:45.146] And so it was just hopelessly out of balance. [02:48:45.146 – 02:48:50.146] And that wasn't relieved in a fell swoop, you know. [02:48:50.146 – 02:48:57.846] You know, that was re- that was, that was relieved over time, you know, as I took these actions laid out. [02:48:57.846 – 02:49:03.606] And, uh, as, as I started to take the actions, you know, the scale started to teeter. [02:49:03.606 – 02:49:04.066] Yeah. [02:49:04.066 – 02:49:07.626] And then sometimes, you know, what I get restored to is life.

[02:49:07.626 – 02:49:16.826] But sometimes, man, I, I can go to something like this, you know, where we just intently focus on, on, on this whole process for a time. [02:49:16.826 – 02:49:19.846] And, and when I start to fly Sunday, I don't need an airplane, you know. [02:49:19.846 – 02:49:23.766] I mean, it's way over here, you know, and, and I feel like the whole world's lovey-dovey. [02:49:23.766 – 02:49:30.346] And, uh, and then most of the time, though, what I get restored to is, is human being. [02:49:30.346 – 02:49:32.686] You're just a functioning human being.

[02:49:32.686 – 02:49:36.326] Some faults, some assets. [02:49:36.326 – 02:49:37.826] But that's what I get restored to. [02:49:37.826 – 02:49:39.826] I don't, I don't transcend life. [02:49:39.826 – 02:49:43.366] You know, I get restored to life as it is. [02:49:43.366 – 02:49:50.186] And what the program does is to help me develop the capability to function here well. [02:49:50.186 – 02:50:00.306] And so that's what that transition's about for me, is how to move from studying and looking at my last operation to starting to look at the new life and, [02:50:00.306 – 02:50:02.686] and, and where the restoration starts to occur.

[02:50:02.686 – 02:50:05.406] Um, so to, to… [02:50:05.406 – 02:50:08.006] I haven't even taken a breath since we started here. [02:50:08.006 – 02:50:10.806] A- anybody want, any of the stuff we've talked about so far… [02:50:10.806 – 02:50:11.365] Yeah. [02:50:11.365 – 02:50:11.846] Yeah. [02:50:11.846 – 02:50:12.946] Well, wait a minute. [02:50:12.946 – 02:50:13.726] Now wait, wait. [02:50:13.726 – 02:50:15.026] I, I gotta get close to you. [02:50:15.026 – 02:50:17.786] They took mic away from me. [02:50:17.786 – 02:50:18.226] Uh-oh. [02:50:18.226 – 02:50:19.126] They, yeah, yeah. [02:50:19.126 – 02:50:20.166] This is good. [02:50:20.166 – 02:50:21.126] Good. [02:50:21.126 – 02:50:23.206] Oh, there's mic. [02:50:23.206 – 02:50:24.186] There's mic. [02:50:24.186 – 02:50:25.606] Doggone it. [02:50:25.606 – 02:50:29.186] You like the hook there? [02:50:29.186 – 02:50:30.286] Yeah. [02:50:30.286 – 02:50:30.486] Yeah. [02:50:30.486 – 02:50:31.126] Thank you. [02:50:31.126 – 02:50:31.586] I'm Beth. [02:50:31.586 – 02:50:32.226] I'm an alcoholic. [02:50:32.226 – 02:50:32.856] Point, point this way.

[02:50:32.856 – 02:50:36.046] I'm a member of the Into Action group in Coral Springs in Broward County. [02:50:36.046 – 02:50:37.946] I'm really glad to be here today. [02:50:37.946 – 02:50:47.066] Um, I, there were two things I wanted to share about the fifth step, 'cause I find that they're, I think they're really, they were really important in my life and, and I think sometimes they help other people. [02:50:47.066 – 02:50:57.356] The first thing is that, um, when I got to the fourth step and looked at the fourth step, I knew I couldn't do the fourth step, and the reason I couldn't do it is because I knew

[02:50:57.356 – 02:51:00.136] that I could never tell anybody the w- [02:51:00.610 – 02:51:01.490] Those things. [02:51:01.490 – 02:51:02.890] You know what those things are. [02:51:02.890 – 02:51:04.750] We all have those things in our life. [02:51:04.750 – 02:51:07.670] And so I just stopped at the third step. [02:51:07.670 – 02:51:17.720] And I was at a meeting one day where a woman was talking about the value of the steps, and I went up to her afterwards and I said, "You know, I really wanna do a fourth step." And the reason I wanted [02:51:17.720 – 02:51:23.690] to do a fourth step was because I wanna, I didn't wanna go to those four-step meetings and have to admit that I hadn't done a fourth step.

[02:51:23.690 – 02:51:25.120] So I said I… [02:51:25.120 – 02:51:27.420] And that was purely the only reason. [02:51:27.420 – 02:51:37.450] And I said, "I really wanna do a fourth step, but I couldn't, can't imagine ever telling anybody those things that I did." And she said to me, "But that's the fifth step." And I said, "Well, yeah, [02:51:37.450 – 02:51:37.869] I know. [02:51:37.869 – 02:51:48.090] But, you know, once I do the fourth step, I have to do the fifth step." And she said, "No, you don't." She said, "All these steps are just suggested, and you don't have to do anything you don't want to do." And

[02:51:48.090 – 02:51:52.210] I went home the next morning, and I got out my pad and my paper, and I started writing. [02:51:52.210 – 02:52:00.570] And I knew that I was never gonna do a fifth step, but at least I could go to four-step meetings and not have to admit that I hadn't done the fourth step. [02:52:00.570 – 02:52:02.290] And it just poured out of me. [02:52:02.290 – 02:52:02.840] I mean, I… [02:52:02.840 – 02:52:05.030] And you talk about writing three pages. [02:52:05.030 – 02:52:07.130] I wrote over 100 pages. [02:52:07.130 – 02:52:08.810] And I, that's what I had to do for me.

[02:52:08.810 – 02:52:09.870] You needed to write three. [02:52:09.870 – 02:52:10.910] I needed to write 100. [02:52:10.910 – 02:52:14.230] And it doesn't make any difference what you do as long as you do it. [02:52:14.230 – 02:52:16.010] And I just wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote. [02:52:16.010 – 02:52:20.820] It was such a catharsis, such a freedom, that I had to force myself to tear my… [02:52:20.820 – 02:52:29.290] Every morning I would allow myself 20 minutes before I went to work to sit down and write, and I had to tear myself away from the, that paper to get to work on time.

[02:52:29.290 – 02:52:39.310] And, and by the time I got about halfway through I thought, "Maybe someday I'll be able to do a fifth step." You know, and, and of course the process, uh, evolved, [02:52:39.310 – 02:52:42.010] and by the time I was done, I couldn't wait to do the fifth step. [02:52:42.010 – 02:52:49.010] So I think that's really important, 'cause if you're putting off the fourth step because you're afraid of talking about those things, don't put it off. [02:52:49.010 – 02:52:50.150] Just do the fourth step. [02:52:50.150 – 02:52:50.910] Just do it.

[02:52:50.910 – 02:52:58.790] And, and put it away in your drawer, and someday, you know, with, with the help of a higher power, it, maybe you'll be ready to do the next step. [02:52:58.790 – 02:53:01.710] But at least you will be able to say you did a fourth step. [02:53:01.710 – 02:53:08.830] And the other thing I wanna caution people about is when we, when I finished the fifth step, you talked about being on a high. [02:53:08.830 – 02:53:08.839] Yeah. [02:53:08.839 – 02:53:14.710] I drove home from my sponsor's house, and my wheels didn't touch the ground.

[02:53:14.710 – 02:53:21.790] But I didn't consult with my sponsor about what to do next. [02:53:21.790 – 02:53:31.909] And I got home, and I had my husband waiting for me, and, uh, he said, "How'd it go?" And I blurted out all these indiscretions that [02:53:31.910 – 02:53:33.130] I was so free. [02:53:33.130 – 02:53:38.310] And I, I really, um, created a lot of chaos- … [02:53:38.310 – 02:53:42.930] in my life that I could have avoided if I had just talked to my sponsor about. [02:53:42.930 – 02:53:46.310] And you don't go from the fifth step to the ninth step.

[02:53:46.310 – 02:53:49.350] There's three other steps in between. [02:53:49.350 – 02:53:51.510] And they're really, really critical. [02:53:51.510 – 02:53:56.170] And, uh, so I like to point that out because it may be the experience of some other people and may help somebody. [02:53:56.170 – 02:53:56.240] Yeah. [02:53:56.240 – 02:53:57.290] Thank you so much, Tom. [02:53:57.290 – 02:53:57.570] Yeah. [02:53:57.570 – 02:53:58.390] Thank you, love. [02:53:58.390 – 02:53:58.620] Yeah. [02:53:58.620 – 02:53:59.430] Thank you very much. [02:53:59.430 – 02:54:00.390] Yeah. [02:54:00.390 – 02:54:01.270] Would you… [02:54:01.270 – 02:54:01.810] Yeah. [02:54:01.810 – 02:54:02.150] Go. [02:54:02.150 – 02:54:02.590] Wait a minute. [02:54:02.590 – 02:54:03.010] Wait a minute. [02:54:03.010 – 02:54:03.910] You gotta talk to Mike. [02:54:03.910 – 02:54:04.810] You got to… [02:54:04.810 – 02:54:09.070] There we go. [02:54:09.070 – 02:54:09.510] Yeah. [02:54:09.510 – 02:54:14.270] I just had a question. [02:54:14.270 – 02:54:15.030] Hi, I'm Vicky.

[02:54:15.030 – 02:54:17.250] I'm an alcoholic, and I'm from Illinois. [02:54:17.250 – 02:54:18.130] Normal, Illinois. [02:54:18.130 – 02:54:18.830] Yeah. [02:54:18.830 – 02:54:20.470] And, um, I was just… [02:54:20.470 – 02:54:21.800] Hi. [02:54:21.800 – 02:54:22.450] Yeah. [02:54:22.450 – 02:54:25.230] I was just wondering if, um, you… [02:54:25.230 – 02:54:35.240] Sometimes often I hear about people who are, um, afraid to talk about their fifth step or, or to do their fourth step 'cause they don't wanna bring up [02:54:35.240 – 02:54:36.630] those… [02:54:36.630 – 02:54:38.250] Uh, you know, you hear about that a lot. [02:54:38.250 – 02:54:48.270] But you never hear about the people very often who are overly zealous about coming in and just getting all this stuff out, and I know there are

[02:54:48.270 – 02:54:51.750] some people like that that just wanna get it out, you know, and say it. [02:54:51.750 – 02:54:53.270] Have you ever, uh… [02:54:53.270 – 02:54:54.630] What are your thoughts on that? [02:54:54.630 – 02:54:55.650] Have you ever had… [02:54:55.650 – 02:54:57.150] Like, what do you think… [02:54:57.150 – 02:55:01.710] You know, are there problems with that, that people are so willing to… [02:55:01.710 – 02:55:02.860] Overly willing or? [02:55:02.860 – 02:55:03.420] Yeah. [02:55:03.420 – 02:55:04.749] I've ru- I've run into both. [02:55:04.749 – 02:55:10.130] You know, the, uh, usually overly willing people, I, I tell you what my criteria is. [02:55:10.130 – 02:55:20.189] If I'm working with somebody, or even sitting next to them, uh, if somebody is, speaks easily, I

[02:55:20.189 – 02:55:21.510] make them wait longer. [02:55:21.510 – 02:55:23.570] Like, my, my basic… [02:55:23.570 – 02:55:29.570] This, the way I, when I'm working with folks, my basic drill with them is, don't get to that mic till you got nine months. [02:55:29.570 – 02:55:33.110] If you speak well, it's a year. [02:55:33.110 – 02:55:34.370] Yeah. [02:55:34.370 – 02:55:37.190] Because what you don't need is what you do well. [02:55:37.190 – 02:55:43.630] And, and, you know, so people who are just so willing to articulate, that's probably what they wanna do, is articulate. [02:55:43.630 – 02:55:49.030] And, and so I'll u- I'll usually hold back an eager beaver and say, "Let's make sure.

[02:55:49.030 – 02:55:50.650] Let's see what you're doing with, with four. [02:55:50.650 – 02:55:55.130] Let's make sure you're ready and you understand what you're dealing." You know, that's what sponsors are for. [02:55:55.130 – 02:55:57.810] You know, it's just for gu- It's guide. [02:55:57.810 – 02:55:58.530] It's not buddy. [02:55:58.530 – 02:56:00.290] You know, it's to guide, guide folk through. [02:56:00.290 – 02:56:03.670] And so that, that's just a general kind of thing with me. [02:56:03.670 – 02:56:05.040] The, um, the, the… [02:56:05.040 – 02:56:07.190] So I'd, I would hold them back in that kind of a case. [02:56:07.190 – 02:56:11.290] Doing it prematurely is da- is reckless and dangerous, really.

[02:56:11.290 – 02:56:18.290] And on the other side, I run into an awful lot of people who are afraid to take the fifth step. [02:56:18.290 – 02:56:28.670] Like, I do a lot of institutional stuff, and a lot of guys in institutions are very, very reluctant to take a, take a fifth step, uh, the fourth step and, and into fifth [02:56:28.670 – 02:56:33.890] because of the, the, the, the, the, the nature that they can't have privacy that much, you know? [02:56:33.890 – 02:56:38.730] So a lot of guys, uh, for a lot of guys there's some legitimacy.

[02:56:38.730 – 02:56:40.350] For most folks it's a cop-out. [02:56:40.350 – 02:56:44.470] And so I'll tend to push them th- through that thing if, uh, if I can. [02:56:44.470 – 02:56:52.190] And, uh, you know, and, and get them all through because most of that stuff is, is just more imagination than reality. [02:56:52.190 – 02:56:58.710] And so s- so some people are, are, are genuinely afraid, and you, and they gotta be led through. [02:56:58.710 – 02:57:08.772] Uh, I tell you, with people, particularly people like, like that, that, I don't care who it is, if, if, uh- If people are afraid to do

[02:57:08.772 – 02:57:15.262] it, uh, and I'm gonna be the one to do it with, I do three things when, when I meet with them. [02:57:15.262 – 02:57:17.142] I t- tell them three things without fail. [02:57:17.142 – 02:57:22.542] One is that what they tell me will die with me. [02:57:22.542 – 02:57:28.002] I will never discuss it with another human, no matter what. [02:57:28.002 – 02:57:35.002] If it's history, if it's history, if it's history, I guarantee that in confidentiality. [02:57:35.002 – 02:57:45.002] If it's, let's say, the, the, if it's, if it's, uh, anticipated action or

[02:57:45.002 – 02:57:48.562] current action, uh, uh, I won't give that guarantee. [02:57:48.562 – 02:57:58.322] You know, somebody that poses a threat to themselves or to someone else or just to the, to, to the welfare of the, of the community. [02:57:58.322 – 02:58:02.782] If they're posing an immediate threat, I won't give that, that confidentiality. [02:58:02.782 – 02:58:05.642] And so I, what I'll counsel them is, "Don't tell me. [02:58:05.642 – 02:58:13.762] If you plan something, better not tell me, because that'll be high risk." And so that, that's a thing I like to do with that.

[02:58:13.762 – 02:58:17.962] And, and I tell you, uh, I've had Fifth Steps that I wished to God I hadn't heard. [02:58:17.962 – 02:58:22.922] But you have to, you have to honor that commitment. [02:58:22.922 – 02:58:26.402] And, uh, so it is, it's a tremendously important thing. [02:58:26.402 – 02:58:30.562] Uh, frankly, I think we get overly casual with it sometimes. [02:58:30.562 – 02:58:32.202] And, and just say, "Yeah, let's do it. [02:58:32.202 – 02:58:38.542] We'll, let's, let's go find a place here." You get overly casual with it, and it's a true, truly important kind of a, kind of a deal.

[02:58:38.542 – 02:58:42.302] And so that, that's just some basic kind of guidelines that I use. [02:58:42.302 – 02:58:47.262] You know, it's, it's, uh, sometimes you gotta urge and sometimes you gotta hold back. [02:58:47.262 – 02:58:54.142] But I think always you've got to absolutely make sure that it is totally private and, and no discussion. [02:58:54.142 – 02:58:56.082] I don't discuss it with my sponsor. [02:58:56.082 – 02:58:57.062] I don't discuss it with anybody. [02:58:57.062 – 02:59:01.142] And it's, I, I think it's a sacred trust that we have to take care of. [02:59:01.142 – 02:59:04.842] And, you know, you, and we get reckless sometimes.

[02:59:04.842 – 02:59:11.542] You know, that, it's like that case in New York where somebody said something they thought they had done, and then somebody reported it to the police. [02:59:11.542 – 02:59:13.282] They created a terrible mess. [02:59:13.282 – 02:59:17.421] Uh, so you gotta, you gotta be thoughtful about this stuff. [02:59:17.421 – 02:59:20.702] Uh, so it is heavy duty transaction. [02:59:20.702 – 02:59:22.382] Yeah. [02:59:22.382 – 02:59:24.102] Anybody else? [02:59:24.102 – 02:59:24.462] Tom? [02:59:24.462 – 02:59:25.702] Tom? [02:59:25.702 – 02:59:26.142] Yeah. [02:59:26.142 – 02:59:32.362] I, I just wanted to, uh, make a, a point, uh, emphasizing what you said about six and seven. [02:59:32.362 – 02:59:42.752] Uh, and I think, uh, my observation is that one of the, the problems that we have is in too many meetings, in too many discussion meetings particularly,

[02:59:42.752 – 02:59:49.122] we don't talk about the steps as if they are something that's vital to recovery. [02:59:49.122 – 02:59:54.542] But they, we talk about them like they're character building that can be done any time when I get to them. [02:59:54.542 – 02:59:59.622] And, uh, uh, I got sober in New Jersey, and that's an amazing thing. [02:59:59.622 – 03:00:01.922] Anybody can get sober if you can get sober in New Jersey. [03:00:01.922 – 03:00:09.722] Uh, but, uh, there, there was a guy, uh, there was a guy up there who was, uh, the, the constant slipper that you see.

[03:00:09.722 – 03:00:11.922] You know, he, he'd come for a while. [03:00:11.922 – 03:00:13.222] Really nice fella. [03:00:13.222 – 03:00:15.102] Glad hand, all that kind of thing. [03:00:15.102 – 03:00:19.122] Uh, and he'd, then he'd slip, and he'd come back and all that kind of stuff. [03:00:19.122 – 03:00:23.502] And, and eventually he finally got a sponsor, and he did a Fourth and Fifth Step. [03:00:23.502 – 03:00:29.982] And, uh, all of our meetings in New Jersey where I was were speaker discussion meetings. [03:00:29.982 – 03:00:31.822] So you spoke a lot. [03:00:31.822 – 03:00:32.672] You know, just- Mm-hmm … [03:00:32.672 – 03:00:34.002] it was just the style.

[03:00:34.002 – 03:00:34.331] Mm-hmm. [03:00:34.331 – 03:00:38.502] And, uh, and after he did it, you know, he would talk about it. [03:00:38.502 – 03:00:42.882] Uh, and then he would talk about it, and he would talk about it. [03:00:42.882 – 03:00:50.862] And, uh, what happened was he got so over the hump with four and five that he didn't think he had to go on. [03:00:50.862 – 03:00:52.322] You know? [03:00:52.322 – 03:00:55.602] And, and, uh, what happened is six months later he was in jail. [03:00:55.602 – 03:01:00.042] Um, and he was in jail because of what he did, did when he was drinking.

[03:01:00.042 – 03:01:05.362] Um, you know, uh, this program is not, this is the important step. [03:01:05.362 – 03:01:06.602] It's all of them. [03:01:06.602 – 03:01:08.352] You know? [03:01:08.352 – 03:01:08.412] Yeah. [03:01:08.412 – 03:01:08.582] Yeah. [03:01:08.582 – 03:01:09.442] Thank you, Jim. [03:01:09.442 – 03:01:10.322] Thank you very much. [03:01:10.322 – 03:01:12.142] Yeah. [03:01:12.142 – 03:01:13.062] Go ahead. [03:01:13.062 – 03:01:16.202] Sure. [03:01:16.202 – 03:01:18.812] Hey, my name is Cathy, and I'm an alcoholic. [03:01:18.812 – 03:01:19.442] Hi, Cathy. [03:01:19.442 – 03:01:19.812] Hi, Cathy. [03:01:19.812 – 03:01:23.322] And I just wanted to comment on the, uh, the Third Step, Tom. [03:01:23.322 – 03:01:27.522] When you talked about that, you talked about how you didn't wanna turn over everything. [03:01:27.522 – 03:01:30.422] You know, you just kinda wanted to do it a little bit at a time.

[03:01:30.422 – 03:01:40.522] And when I, when I finally got here, um, I was at a point where even though I had a religious upbringing, and I had at one time had a very strong belief in God- [03:01:41.518 – 03:01:47.478] When I finally got here, I was so beaten and so, um, isolated from the God that I knew. [03:01:47.478 – 03:01:51.238] I didn't know if there was anything, much less a God. [03:01:51.238 – 03:01:57.078] And if there was anything, whatever it was certainly didn't care about me, 'cause I was a nothing.

[03:01:57.078 – 03:01:58.278] I was worse than a nothing. [03:01:58.278 – 03:02:07.618] And I said something to someone in a step meeting one day, that I was having trouble with this God thing. [03:02:07.618 – 03:02:14.098] And what they said to me made a profound impact on me, and I've never forgotten it. [03:02:14.098 – 03:02:19.418] They looked square at me and they said to me, "Think about this. [03:02:19.418 – 03:02:26.558] Who in your life has treated you the worst that anyone could ever treat you? [03:02:26.558 – 03:02:32.497] Who has been the worst person to you and has treated you the worst?" I didn't even have to think about it.

[03:02:32.497 – 03:02:42.558] I said, "Well, I have." And he said, "Well then, what is the harm in turning your life over to the care of anything else, no matter [03:02:42.558 – 03:02:50.018] what it is?" "It can't be worse than what you've already got." And that really helped me get over that hump and get moving on that. [03:02:50.018 – 03:02:50.278] Yeah. [03:02:50.278 – 03:02:51.337] Yes. [03:02:51.337 – 03:02:52.318] Thank you, Kathy. [03:02:52.318 – 03:02:53.518] Yes, yes it did. [03:02:53.518 – 03:02:54.238] Yeah. [03:02:54.238 – 03:02:54.898] Yeah. [03:02:54.898 – 03:02:58.978] Anybody else? [03:02:58.978 – 03:03:01.238] Yeah. [03:03:01.238 – 03:03:03.138] Yeah. [03:03:03.138 – 03:03:06.538] Let, let me get Mike over there. [03:03:06.538 – 03:03:11.988] Hello. [03:03:11.988 – 03:03:13.278] I was just wondering…

[03:03:13.278 – 03:03:15.678] Hello? [03:03:15.678 – 03:03:17.678] There you go. [03:03:17.678 – 03:03:18.098] Yeah. [03:03:18.098 – 03:03:19.928] I just wanted to ask- Yeah. [03:03:19.928 – 03:03:20.438] Can you hear me? [03:03:20.438 – 03:03:21.028] Yeah. [03:03:21.028 – 03:03:21.158] Yeah. [03:03:21.158 – 03:03:23.118] I hear myself. [03:03:23.118 – 03:03:24.128] Yeah. [03:03:24.128 – 03:03:24.658] Hold it up there. [03:03:24.658 – 03:03:24.688] Yeah. [03:03:24.688 – 03:03:33.598] I just wanted to ask you what you meant when you were saying, uh, what you don't need is what you do well. [03:03:33.598 – 03:03:36.478] What you don't need… [03:03:36.478 – 03:03:37.898] Is what you do well. [03:03:37.898 – 03:03:39.338] Um- Oh. [03:03:39.338 – 03:03:40.018] Oh, okay. [03:03:40.018 – 03:03:41.158] Yeah, I know what you're talking about. [03:03:41.158 – 03:03:41.638] Thank you. [03:03:41.638 – 03:03:52.438] It's, it's like, it like if I'm sponsoring a teacher or an actor or a minister or, uh, you know, somebody who's articulate and vocal, th-

[03:03:52.438 – 03:03:53.838] th- they've done that. [03:03:53.838 – 03:03:56.297] They screwed up like Hogan's Goat. [03:03:56.297 – 03:04:02.558] And so they're w- usually folks like that don't need to learn to speak, they need to, to learn to listen. [03:04:02.558 – 03:04:08.338] And so what I'll do is if, if, if, if, if it's real easy to do, wait a while. [03:04:08.338 – 03:04:11.338] If it's hard to do, let's do it now, you know? [03:04:11.338 – 03:04:15.398] It, it's, that, that's, that's just a strategy that I use working with people. [03:04:15.398 – 03:04:19.338] And, uh, I tell you what, you, you, you talk about w- you know…

[03:04:19.338 – 03:04:24.278] S- sometimes it's easy to overrate people. [03:04:24.278 – 03:04:25.338] You're, you're, you're, you… [03:04:25.338 – 03:04:28.438] Like I've sponsored several priests and ministers. [03:04:28.438 – 03:04:36.858] Without fail, the most spiritually tortured people that I've ever seen. [03:04:36.858 – 03:04:43.598] And it's easy to just think because he got his collar on backward that he's got it all together, and not so. [03:04:43.598 – 03:04:53.658] And so it's, it's a real challenge, a real challenge to, uh, to, to know how to deal with that, you know, without insulting their training and all that, that they're

[03:04:53.658 – 03:04:55.998] spiritually lost, otherwise they wouldn't be in that trouble. [03:04:55.998 – 03:04:58.738] And, and so it's a real challenge with that. [03:04:58.738 – 03:05:00.758] It's kinda like what Kathy was saying. [03:05:00.758 – 03:05:10.898] I, I don't get to pick and choose who I work with, but if I did, my last choice would be somebody [03:05:10.898 – 03:05:12.878] who was religiously intact. [03:05:12.878 – 03:05:18.678] Their life screwed up like Hogan's Goat, but they're religiously intact. [03:05:18.678 – 03:05:20.798] God, what a challenge. [03:05:20.798 – 03:05:22.018] What a challenge. [03:05:22.018 – 03:05:28.758] Because you got that righteous cloud that makes it impossible to see your life, you know?

[03:05:28.758 – 03:05:31.938] And boy, I'm telling you, that's is a, a real challenge. [03:05:31.938 – 03:05:39.018] 'Cause y- y- y- if it was all that good, it's kinda like saying about that, you, you, you wouldn't need anybody. [03:05:39.018 – 03:05:41.797] Uh, and, and so that would be the, the tough one. [03:05:41.797 – 03:05:50.318] And I'd give anytime, give me the guy or gal that says, "Man, I don't believe nothing, es- especially you." You know? [03:05:50.318 – 03:05:55.898] 'Cause there, there's signs of life there, and you know you're gonna engage, you know?

[03:05:55.898 – 03:06:03.298] There's somebody that, that's, uh, already got it together, you know, what's an infidel like me talking to you? [03:06:03.298 – 03:06:07.018] So it's a, it's a challenge, believe me, that, uh… [03:06:07.018 – 03:06:10.568] So I have to be careful sometimes. [03:06:10.568 – 03:06:11.468] I, I, I got… [03:06:11.468 – 03:06:14.668] I'm a kind and gentle person, but I'm, I'm too abrupt sometimes. [03:06:14.668 – 03:06:22.478] And I had a guy that, I mean, I, I'd, I'd seen the guy around, you know, he was just sort of flitting around the, the, the, around the tree.

[03:06:22.478 – 03:06:32.698] And, and one night I was, I was just racing to get into the meeting on time, and this guy stopped me in the hall and he said, "Will you, [03:06:32.698 – 03:06:43.618] will you talk to me for just a minute?" I said, "Well, the meeting's starting." He said, "Well, just give me two minutes." I said, "All right, what?" He said, "Are you charismatic?" I [03:06:43.618 – 03:06:51.678] said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "Well, I mean, you, you're so enthusiastic, and nobody could be that enthusiastic and not be chara-" And I caught on what he was talking about.

[03:06:51.678 – 03:07:01.028] And I was a little unkind to the guy, and I said, "Look, Jack, let me tell you something." He wasn't named Jack, but I said, "Look, Jack." "Let me, uh, let me tell you something. [03:07:01.028 – 03:07:03.477] Everything you see in me came out of this program. [03:07:03.477 – 03:07:04.978] Get your fanny in that meeting." I… [03:07:04.978 – 03:07:06.858] Well, that was a little too abrupt. [03:07:06.858 – 03:07:10.458] Uh, because he was a sensitive guy and he had some emotional frailty and… [03:07:10.458 – 03:07:16.407] So it's, it's the thing about working with people, you know, sometimes you gotta use some insight and intelligence, you know?

[03:07:16.407 – 03:07:25.298] And, and if, if I don't watch it, particularly with people who've got, use delicate situations, that I might stomp in too quick and do more harm than good. [03:07:25.298 – 03:07:31.418] And so I, I always wanna be careful with this kind of an area, because it, it really does get, uh, touchy. [03:07:31.418 – 03:07:41.418] And if somebody asks me to sponsor them, uh, I'll, I'll just say this about, about, about sponsoring, maybe we can talk about it a bit more, uh, sometime later, but I'd

[03:07:41.418 – 03:07:42.138] mention it now. [03:07:42.138 – 03:07:52.217] If, uh, if s- a reason I got on my mind, somebody asked me something about sponsorship at break or something, that if I'm [03:07:52.217 – 03:07:58.078] sponsoring somebody, I won't sponsor anybody just impulsively. [03:07:58.078 – 03:08:07.298] You know, like, you know, you know, a lot of times, you know, that, you know, I've, I've traveled around the country, and people ask me somewhere in Missoula, Montana, say, "Would you sponsor me?" My stock answer is no. [03:08:07.298 – 03:08:12.838] And they'll say, "Why?" I say, "Because I don't do it that way." It's like hitting on somebody at a dance, you know?

[03:08:12.838 – 03:08:13.808] That- … [03:08:13.808 – 03:08:15.597] no, I don't do it that way, you know? [03:08:15.597 – 03:08:25.698] And I said, "I, uh, I, I might talk with you about it." And, um, so wh- when I treat sponsorship as a very serious [03:08:25.698 – 03:08:36.138] commitment, a very serious commitment, and when I take on somebody, we're gonna spend at least an hour and a half to two hours establishing the relationship. [03:08:36.138 – 03:08:41.738] You'll never hear me say, "Yeah, we'll try it out." Uh-uh, no. [03:08:41.738 – 03:08:42.618] I'm not going there. [03:08:42.618 – 03:08:52.618] We're gonna set up terms of agreement because what the person is doing is asking me to become intimately involved in their life, and I want them to know that's

[03:08:52.618 – 03:08:53.238] what that is. [03:08:53.238 – 03:08:59.677] If that's not what they think they're asking for, I want them to understand that that's what, that they're gonna be the terms if I'm gonna work with them. [03:08:59.677 – 03:09:03.758] I'm not gonna sponsor somebody who's drinking or not drinking. [03:09:03.758 – 03:09:08.378] Now, if they wanna talk about getting a new life, then we got something to work on. [03:09:08.378 – 03:09:11.238] And so I wanna get that s- understood in advance. [03:09:11.238 – 03:09:13.018] You know, I don't wanna surprise them with it. [03:09:13.018 – 03:09:19.218] And so when we meet, I'm gonna make doggone sure we got terms of agreement about access.

[03:09:19.218 – 03:09:29.218] With my sponsor, my sponsor, uh, when we set it up 25 years ago on this one, the, uh, I made an agreement [03:09:29.218 – 03:09:37.598] with him that he is the only person on this planet that has absolute access to my life, any area of my life. [03:09:37.598 – 03:09:45.078] He can talk to me about my wife, my children, my employment, my citizenship, whatever. [03:09:45.078 – 03:09:47.038] I don't care what it is. [03:09:47.038 – 03:09:49.538] He's got access, and I'll answer. [03:09:49.538 – 03:09:50.678] He's the only person that has …

[03:09:50.678 – 03:09:52.198] My wife doesn't have that access. [03:09:52.198 – 03:09:54.058] She takes it anyway. [03:09:54.058 – 03:09:56.917] But, but I haven't given it to her. [03:09:56.917 – 03:09:59.058] She just bogarts it and, and takes it. [03:09:59.058 – 03:10:01.938] But I don't have to listen. [03:10:01.938 – 03:10:03.218] I have to listen to my sponsor. [03:10:03.218 – 03:10:05.478] But now, see, that's what I want, you know? [03:10:05.478 – 03:10:09.358] I don't want somebody just a casual kind of, "Let's chat a little." No. [03:10:09.358 – 03:10:18.368] I want somebody that can ha- can have access, and when they see me the least bit out of kilter, say, "Hey, guy, what you doing?" You know?

[03:10:18.368 – 03:10:19.138] And I'll answer. [03:10:19.138 – 03:10:22.818] And so that's what I want in a sponsorship relationship, you know? [03:10:22.818 – 03:10:26.638] I don't want some kind of a casual, "I'll see you Friday," you know? [03:10:26.638 – 03:10:27.298] No. [03:10:27.298 – 03:10:33.038] I, I consider that an important, uh, en- engagement between two people with an honor-bound thing. [03:10:33.038 – 03:10:36.138] And, uh, so at, that's what I practice. [03:10:36.138 – 03:10:46.158] And, and, and so this thing about dealing with whether it's awkward or not awkward or stuff like that, I have that resolved before we ever meet about what'll be awkward

[03:10:46.158 – 03:10:46.738] and what won't. [03:10:46.738 – 03:10:50.018] And, uh, that's just the way that, that, that I do it. [03:10:50.018 – 03:10:56.938] And, uh, if, if they don't wanna do, deal with that, I'm not gonna waste time just hanging out and chatting, you know? [03:10:56.938 – 03:11:03.358] This is a b- this is a major league illness, and I'm not gonna treat it like it's a nuisance. [03:11:03.358 – 03:11:06.018] Uh, I'm gonna treat it like it's a major league illness. [03:11:06.018 – 03:11:07.438] It'll flat take you out of here. [03:11:07.438 – 03:11:11.638] And so that, one of the ways I try to do that.

[03:11:11.638 – 03:11:19.138] And I wanna establish that up front and then not surprise somebody with, uh, with holding somebody back that's, uh, easy to talk, you know? [03:11:19.138 – 03:11:21.298] Any of that stuff, I want all that done before I get in there. [03:11:21.298 – 03:11:22.378] Yeah. [03:11:22.378 – 03:11:23.398] Anybody else? [03:11:23.398 – 03:11:24.318] Yeah. [03:11:24.318 – 03:11:25.498] Yeah, Dustin. [03:11:25.498 – 03:11:26.508] Yeah. [03:11:26.508 – 03:11:27.098] Oh. [03:11:27.098 – 03:11:28.818] Well, God, I'm holding the mic and this too. [03:11:28.818 – 03:11:30.558] I You're doing well. [03:11:30.558 – 03:11:31.878] Double whammy, I guess. [03:11:31.878 – 03:11:33.458] My name is Woody, and I'm an alcoholic. [03:11:33.458 – 03:11:33.838] Woody. [03:11:33.838 – 03:11:34.218] Yeah. [03:11:34.218 – 03:11:41.118] Um, you know, I found that, uh, rarely am I entirely ready for anything.

[03:11:41.118 – 03:11:46.018] Um, manipulation worked real well for me. [03:11:46.018 – 03:11:46.868] Mm-hmm. [03:11:46.868 – 03:11:50.198] Intimidation worked real well for me. [03:11:50.198 – 03:11:59.188] And I know that in the environment that you were in jail and so forth- Mm-hmm … [03:11:59.188 – 03:12:00.997] that they worked real well for you. [03:12:00.997 – 03:12:02.648] Mm-hmm. [03:12:02.648 – 03:12:12.718] I find that when I lay down these things and recognize them as objectionable to me, and I need to push through these patterns, [03:12:12.718 – 03:12:19.458] give up these old ideas, they'll manifest themselves in a form of fear. [03:12:19.458 – 03:12:22.628] Man, I could really get on p-

[03:12:22.786 – 03:12:27.466] comfortable with this, I wanna reach down and pick them back up. [03:12:27.466 – 03:12:34.946] Find that in order to communicate with men, my language starts changing. [03:12:34.946 – 03:12:42.886] You know, and that old sailor language will jump on me and bite me in the tail. [03:12:42.886 – 03:12:53.626] And I was just wondering if you'd share m- I d- I find that these are, these are just a continuation. [03:12:53.626 – 03:13:01.926] It's not like the event of the spiritual awakening, that some of these are deep-embedded. [03:13:01.926 – 03:13:05.046] They n- they have not come up in a fifth step before.

[03:13:05.046 – 03:13:09.506] But today, I recognize them as an objectionable behavior. [03:13:09.506 – 03:13:14.946] And for me to be ready to lay them down, I'm giving up part of me. [03:13:14.946 – 03:13:15.766] Mm-hmm. [03:13:15.766 – 03:13:25.906] And I heard recently that in order for me to give up or to achieve who I want to be, [03:13:25.906 – 03:13:27.986] I've gotta give, give up who I am. [03:13:27.986 – 03:13:28.686] Mm-hmm. [03:13:28.686 – 03:13:38.686] And I'm experiencing not paralyzing fear, but a reasonable amount to that I've got to get on my knees and ask [03:13:38.686 – 03:13:39.866] for some help about that.

[03:13:39.866 – 03:13:43.446] What have, what, what's your experience along those lines? [03:13:43.446 – 03:13:53.746] Well, I, I don't have a special wavelength with God, but, uh, I'll [03:13:53.746 – 03:13:56.126] tell you, I, I have very few bad days. [03:13:56.126 – 03:13:57.606] I mean, very few. [03:13:57.606 – 03:14:00.886] In fact, I can't remember the last one I had. [03:14:00.886 – 03:14:04.426] And, uh, and, and I don't think it's an accident. [03:14:04.426 – 03:14:04.806] You know? [03:14:04.806 – 03:14:12.666] It, it's because I try to d- I try to use every day in a, as, as a way to carry out my primary purpose.

[03:14:12.666 – 03:14:13.226] Yeah. [03:14:13.226 – 03:14:19.166] And so what's on my mind is my, my primary purpose is exactly what it says in Fifth Tradition. [03:14:19.166 – 03:14:23.846] It, it, my primary purpose is to carry this message to alcoholics still suffering. [03:14:23.846 – 03:14:33.945] And, uh, that, that'll put me in a, in a different kind of a, a frame of mind because everybody I [03:14:33.946 – 03:14:38.626] meet, well, most people around the li- of the little town I live in, they know I'm in AA. [03:14:38.626 – 03:14:43.766] And so I'm pretty doggone careful about how I live, about how I handle myself.

[03:14:43.766 – 03:14:44.926] I'm not paranoid. [03:14:44.926 – 03:14:54.546] I'm comfortably who I am, but I'm never unconscious to the fact that it's not just me in, in, in, in, in, in, in my, in my th- my thoughts. [03:14:54.546 – 03:15:01.996] It's about who I am as, as somebody who rep- who represents, whether I want to or not, you know, I represent AA. [03:15:01.996 – 03:15:05.116] And so I, I, I take that pretty seriously. [03:15:05.116 – 03:15:15.186] And I do, I, I, w- we could talk in a great deal more detail, we'll get into 10, 11, 12, but, but what I do is, is I, I try to frame each day

[03:15:15.186 – 03:15:22.546] so that I know how I'm gonna, uh, what I wanna get d- I don't mean specifics, but how I want to live that day. [03:15:22.546 – 03:15:25.326] That's what I do in my, in my daily deal. [03:15:25.326 – 03:15:35.506] And the other thing is I cannot remember, honest to God, cannot remember the last time that I went into a meeting with any [03:15:35.506 – 03:15:36.866] thought about what I needed. [03:15:36.866 – 03:15:39.846] I don't go in looking for what I need. [03:15:39.846 – 03:15:46.606] I mean, it's just a foreign thought that when I go to a meeting, I'm trying to be of, of useful purpose.

[03:15:46.606 – 03:15:48.296] I'm trying to be of service, you know? [03:15:48.296 – 03:15:51.526] That I'm almost always gonna be the oldest rat in the barn. [03:15:51.526 – 03:15:53.376] And, uh- … [03:15:53.376 – 03:15:55.766] I wanna c- I see a responsibility with that. [03:15:55.766 – 03:16:01.946] You know, I wanna introduce somebody, and I'm the, that I'm somebody with 52 years sobriety, and the best I can do is grunt? [03:16:01.946 – 03:16:03.126] No. [03:16:03.126 – 03:16:04.246] No, no. [03:16:04.246 – 03:16:07.636] Yeah, I, I'll turn myself in when I get that . [03:16:07.636 – 03:16:16.346] But it, it, it's a matter of focus, you know, th- th- that, that I want my life to have purpose and to me have meaning.

[03:16:16.346 – 03:16:20.416] And, and so it, it's not about, it's not, it's… [03:16:20.416 – 03:16:23.436] And that doesn't mean that I'm Mahatma Gandhi, you know, just wandering around. [03:16:23.436 – 03:16:32.706] It, but, but it, uh, I'm somebody who wants my life to have purpose and meaning, and I take very seriously the responsibility I have. [03:16:32.706 – 03:16:36.666] And, um, and so when I go in, and it's not a, an act. [03:16:36.666 – 03:16:40.446] I genuinely wanna be of help if I can. [03:16:40.446 – 03:16:43.566] But what I've found is just like this stuff coming back.

[03:16:43.566 – 03:16:46.006] When I put it out, I get it back. [03:16:46.006 – 03:16:48.466] I mean, amazingly so. [03:16:48.466 – 03:16:59.266] And, and so I don't have the experience of sort of losing that, that, uh, deal and getting back into the old behaviors of… [03:16:59.266 – 03:17:01.986] I can't even remember the last time I did. [03:17:01.986 – 03:17:03.886] I, I mean, I'm, and I don't walk on water. [03:17:03.886 – 03:17:07.675] You know, I'm just a normal human be- well, not normal, but I'm- … [03:17:07.675 – 03:17:09.056] I'm human . [03:17:09.056 – 03:17:11.206] And, uh, but I just don't. [03:17:11.206 – 03:17:15.666] I d- I don't have bad days or, uh, you know, I use the tools that…

[03:17:15.666 – 03:17:18.826] So somehow or other, I just, I, I, I really can't relate with… [03:17:18.826 – 03:17:20.606] I don't use profanity. [03:17:20.606 – 03:17:23.906] And that's not some rigid discipline. [03:17:23.906 – 03:17:24.846] I just don't. [03:17:24.846 – 03:17:27.166] It's not becoming . [03:17:27.166 – 03:17:29.026] And I wanna carry a message. [03:17:29.026 – 03:17:33.046] I don't wanna shock somebody or sh- teach them how long I stayed in the pool room. [03:17:33.046 – 03:17:34.706] I d- I don't wanna do that. [03:17:34.706 – 03:17:37.766] I wanna be an example of Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:17:37.766 – 03:17:44.886] And, uh, so it, it's just, it's just a matter of, you know, how I ch- see of, of living the program.

[03:17:44.886 – 03:17:49.245] It's not s- it's, it's, it's about how I live that's my message. [03:17:49.245 – 03:17:53.946] And so th- that, that sort of prevents me from, from, from moving in. [03:17:53.946 – 03:17:56.306] And, and I really haven't, you know, that… [03:17:56.306 – 03:17:59.786] I mean, I'll have a, once in a while I'll get down in the dumps about something. [03:17:59.786 – 03:18:01.026] I'll be sad about something. [03:18:01.026 – 03:18:03.906] But, but it's rarely about something that's happened to me. [03:18:03.906 – 03:18:06.126] It's about something I'm, somebody I'm concerned about. [03:18:06.126 – 03:18:10.466] I helped a man pull life support off of a guy in California last weekend.

[03:18:10.466 – 03:18:12.906] I was sad about that, yeah. [03:18:12.906 – 03:18:17.046] But I was grateful that I was be able to be there and to be helpful, you know? [03:18:17.046 – 03:18:23.386] So that's kind of the way I, I g- I try to go at it and do successfully most of the time. [03:18:23.386 – 03:18:24.736] It's, it… [03:18:24.736 – 03:18:29.606] And I'm gonna, I tell you the darn truth that that's, that's not just generosity out the, out the pores. [03:18:29.606 – 03:18:33.670] I tr– when I say I'm the most fortunate man in the world, I believe it.

[03:18:33.670 – 03:18:41.090] Because I, I absolutely am overwhelmed with kindnesses that, uh, I mean, for people I don't even know. [03:18:41.090 – 03:18:45.000] And, uh, it, it just happens in, in the course of things. [03:18:45.000 – 03:18:47.530] And so I'm, I'm just… [03:18:47.530 – 03:18:49.490] Anyway, I'm, I'm answering way too long on that. [03:18:49.490 – 03:18:56.430] But, uh, you know, one thing I have to get out of them and get, you know. [03:18:56.430 – 03:19:00.590] When I go in and I got a mission, I'm in there to try to, try to bring something to that thing.

[03:19:00.590 – 03:19:03.730] I don't have time to, to, to, to, to, to get off on that. [03:19:03.730 – 03:19:04.810] You know, I just boogie. [03:19:04.810 – 03:19:06.150] Yeah. [03:19:06.150 – 03:19:08.930] Gotta run fast or they might be catch- catching up with me. [03:19:08.930 – 03:19:10.440] I got to keep moving. [03:19:10.440 – 03:19:17.420] What, uh, folks asked me to, to, to, to deal a little bit more with, uh, with sponsorship. [03:19:17.420 – 03:19:19.859] Just discuss that whole arena just a little bit more. [03:19:19.859 – 03:19:21.170] Not a little. [03:19:21.170 – 03:19:25.090] Now, you know a little bit for me, it, it, it, it, it, it means a bunch.

[03:19:25.090 – 03:19:31.790] But I'll, I'll try to get at it, uh, get into some, just what I think are some really, uh, important points. [03:19:31.790 – 03:19:33.970] We, we get a… [03:19:33.970 – 03:19:37.830] We do get kind of casual with that sometimes. [03:19:37.830 – 03:19:45.730] And I tell you, there's, um, a thing, I won't go into a lot on this, just enough maybe get you to think with me a minute. [03:19:45.730 – 03:19:47.589] There's, uh… [03:19:47.589 – 03:19:51.250] There's been some huge changes in AA over the years. [03:19:51.250 – 03:19:59.230] And, um, this thing of a tight bond between members, you know, has, has changed somewhat.

[03:19:59.230 – 03:20:03.110] And, and, and, and in, and in no less than in sponsorship as well. [03:20:03.110 – 03:20:07.870] Um, what happened when treatment came on the scene… [03:20:07.870 – 03:20:10.570] Well, go back a little bit further. [03:20:10.570 – 03:20:17.330] Like, when I came in and when Diane came in, 12-step work was the order of the day. [03:20:17.330 – 03:20:20.430] That wasn't the most important, but that was about the only one, man. [03:20:20.430 – 03:20:23.870] And we, and that's what we did, uh, uh, big time, big time. [03:20:23.870 – 03:20:34.050] And what happened with, with 12-step work is that when you go out and call on somebody in, in whatever mess they're in, and it's rarely

[03:20:34.050 – 03:20:38.350] gonna be a neat place, uh, it, it's a bad news deal. [03:20:38.350 – 03:20:47.150] And, and when you, when somebody comes in and reaches out to you, it, it creates a sense of loyalty second to none. [03:20:47.150 – 03:20:52.070] Without hesitation, you would step forward and do that for the next one. [03:20:52.070 – 03:21:02.370] And whoever, whoever made that 12-step call would have a, a bond of trust and loyalty that, that is almost unbreakable. [03:21:02.370 – 03:21:10.130] And, and so sponsorship, you know, in that era had a much stronger kind of a deal.

[03:21:10.130 – 03:21:16.230] You know, it wasn't like advisor or you're this thing or trying to perpetuate an experience of treatment or stuff like that. [03:21:16.230 – 03:21:20.910] It was literally just sort of watching somebody come back to life. [03:21:20.910 – 03:21:24.929] And so it was a powerful kind of a bond of trust. [03:21:24.929 – 03:21:34.950] And, you know, I don't like to demonize treatment, but the emergence of treatment was a hugely good news day and a, and, and a bad news day in the sense that there was some stuff that, that,

[03:21:34.950 – 03:21:38.190] that came out of it that was not overly helpful. [03:21:38.190 – 03:21:42.350] And that was one of them because the base of sh– of loyalty shifted. [03:21:42.350 – 03:21:52.490] If, if you think about it right now, wherever your recovery, when you look back, wherever you think your recovery triggered, you'll have [03:21:52.490 – 03:21:54.950] a, a sense of loyalty to that second to none. [03:21:54.950 – 03:22:00.550] And without hesitation, if somebody asks you to do something in that, in that realm, you'd do it. [03:22:00.550 – 03:22:03.370] It, uh, just, it's just a human instinct.

[03:22:03.370 – 03:22:13.790] And, uh, so, you know, what happened over the years, over the years as this started to change, and you listen in meetings and you hear it, [03:22:13.790 – 03:22:17.770] your primary loyalty will tend to be focused on the experience in treatment. [03:22:17.770 – 03:22:22.470] And then in AA, it moves to a different kind of a, kind of a level. [03:22:22.470 – 03:22:30.709] Uh, I'll, I'll give you an example of a, of a thing that, uh, uh, didn't get me thinking about it, but it certainly proved it if I had any doubts.

[03:22:30.709 – 03:22:38.950] Uh, I had a young man in, uh, in my town ask me about sponsorship, and I knew him, you know, somewhat, you know, the way you do casually. [03:22:38.950 – 03:22:41.630] And I knew that, that he wasn't the founder. [03:22:41.630 – 03:22:42.450] I, I knew that. [03:22:42.450 – 03:22:45.390] I mean, he, he was not the most active guy I've ever seen. [03:22:45.390 – 03:22:54.050] Uh, and he– but he asked me about it, and I, I said, "Well, we'll talk." And, uh, so we set up a time, and we met at the Holiday Inn for breakfast.

[03:22:54.050 – 03:22:56.569] I, I thought he'd buy, but I was wrong. [03:22:56.569 – 03:22:59.910] He would… [03:22:59.910 – 03:23:01.230] As usual. [03:23:01.230 – 03:23:03.070] So, so he stuck me for breakfast. [03:23:04.028 – 03:23:07.397] So we, we go at it, and he tells me that, you, what he is. [03:23:07.397 – 03:23:14.628] And, and, and I said, I said, "Well, and I'll be glad to take a look at it, but let's talk." And, uh, and, and he, and he… [03:23:14.628 – 03:23:19.568] I said, "Tell me about your current situation," because he'd, he'd been in the program 13 years.

[03:23:19.568 – 03:23:21.308] Said, "Tell me about your current situation. [03:23:21.308 – 03:23:31.448] You know, what, what's the deal with it?" And he said, "Well, uh, I just don't feel like we're getting anywhere, and I wanna make a change." And so we went on just a little bit, and then he said, "Would you like [03:23:31.448 – 03:23:35.908] to know who my current sponsor is?" I said, "Well, not particularly. [03:23:35.908 – 03:23:36.908] I don't care, you know. [03:23:36.908 – 03:23:39.028] But, but, uh, if you wanna tell me, it's fine. [03:23:39.028 – 03:23:42.168] If you don't, it's fine." And he t- but he told me.

[03:23:42.168 – 03:23:47.448] And when he told me, I mean, sometimes I'm spontaneous, you know. [03:23:47.448 – 03:23:49.698] I mean, I just sort of- … [03:23:49.698 – 03:23:51.648] l- l- look for, leap before looking. [03:23:51.648 – 03:23:53.848] And, uh, you know, just… [03:23:53.848 – 03:23:56.248] Anyway, I have to, have to sort of hold it down. [03:23:56.248 – 03:24:05.028] He told me his sponsor for 13 years had been a non-alcoholic counselor at a treatment center. [03:24:05.028 – 03:24:07.868] And, and man, I wanted to explode. [03:24:07.868 – 03:24:09.408] I mean, smoke coming out of my ears. [03:24:09.408 – 03:24:16.508] And, uh, I didn't say anything 'cause I knew if I said anything, it would be damaging probably to both of us.

[03:24:16.508 – 03:24:20.568] And so I just sat there and let it settle down a little bit. [03:24:20.568 – 03:24:30.588] And, uh, I said, I said, "Let me make a suggestion to you." He said, "What?" I said, "Let me suggest that you've never had [03:24:30.588 – 03:24:31.248] a sponsor. [03:24:31.248 – 03:24:38.308] What you had was the world's longest aftercare plan." Yeah. [03:24:38.308 – 03:24:39.028] And isn't it? [03:24:39.028 – 03:24:40.308] I mean, you think about that. [03:24:40.308 – 03:24:40.418] Yeah. [03:24:40.418 – 03:24:40.708] Isn't it? [03:24:40.708 – 03:24:44.548] I mean, this guy's still got the umbilical attached to the center. [03:24:44.548 – 03:24:52.268] Yeah, and when you think about that, it's not shocking information to know this fella had never had a home group.

[03:24:52.268 – 03:24:53.468] 13 years. [03:24:53.468 – 03:24:55.908] Had never sponsored a soul. [03:24:55.908 – 03:24:58.528] Had never had a service commitment. [03:24:58.528 – 03:24:59.708] On and on. [03:24:59.708 – 03:25:02.208] I mean, this fella was like a visitor to AA. [03:25:02.208 – 03:25:03.648] Why not? [03:25:03.648 – 03:25:05.928] You know, because he's- He didn't work the steps. [03:25:05.928 – 03:25:06.088] Huh? [03:25:06.088 – 03:25:07.608] Had he ever worked the steps? [03:25:07.608 – 03:25:09.628] Well, you can work them a lot of different ways. [03:25:09.628 – 03:25:11.328] You can work them left-handed, right-handed. [03:25:11.328 – 03:25:13.388] You got, you got… [03:25:13.388 – 03:25:15.288] He was, uh, he… [03:25:15.288 – 03:25:16.668] Just put it this way. [03:25:16.668 – 03:25:19.967] He was not really somebody you'd wanna go to in a crisis.

[03:25:19.967 – 03:25:21.008] Let's put it that way. [03:25:21.008 – 03:25:22.348] Nice young man. [03:25:22.348 – 03:25:23.328] A nice young man. [03:25:23.328 – 03:25:25.028] Ran a d- decent business in town. [03:25:25.028 – 03:25:28.148] But n- no, he, he just wasn't much of a member. [03:25:28.148 – 03:25:38.308] And, uh, so as I settled down, I s- I said, I said, "Okay, we'll talk about it." And we did just what I was talking about earlier, [03:25:38.308 – 03:25:38.588] you know. [03:25:38.588 – 03:25:39.648] The, the, the, the… [03:25:39.648 – 03:25:43.368] We established, you know, what is it that you're gonna be looking for? [03:25:43.368 – 03:25:45.588] We set up the, the terms of agreement.

[03:25:45.588 – 03:25:54.208] You know, the, the t- the thing of having total access to life, that there's no off-limits on this thing, about how we would make contact and all that. [03:25:54.208 – 03:25:57.288] And he was sort of blanching a little. [03:25:57.288 – 03:26:00.188] You know, I mean, you could tell, 'cause that wasn't what he had with his counselor. [03:26:00.188 – 03:26:03.628] And, and so he, he was very thoughtful. [03:26:03.628 – 03:26:05.788] And I said, "I, I want you to think about this. [03:26:05.788 – 03:26:15.788] You know, don't jump on it real quick because, you know, we're talking about a pretty radical change from what you're used to." And, uh, and so he thought it over in, in d- during

[03:26:15.788 – 03:26:23.288] the course of the breakfast, and then he said, "You…" He said, "I, I think I'd like to go through with it." I said, "Well, let me tell you the rest of the story now. [03:26:23.288 – 03:26:33.508] Uh, if we go through with it, your life is gonna change, or it's gonna, it's gonna have to change." Said, "Number one, you're gonna have to have a home group. [03:26:33.508 – 03:26:39.848] Doesn't have to be mine, but you're gonna have to have a place you call home and take responsibility.

[03:26:39.848 – 03:26:41.958] Free loaded long enough. [03:26:41.958 – 03:26:45.528] It's time for you to become a member, so you're gonna have to have a home group. [03:26:45.528 – 03:26:50.608] You're gonna have to do some service work." And he'd never even heard of… [03:26:50.608 – 03:26:53.688] He'd heard of it, but it was always to others, you know, not himself. [03:26:53.688 – 03:26:56.828] And, uh, you know, he was thinking hard. [03:26:56.828 – 03:26:57.088] Yeah. [03:26:57.088 – 03:27:00.288] "And, um, you're gonna have to start sponsoring people. [03:27:00.288 – 03:27:08.068] Yeah, as soon as you get your, get your head right, you're gonna have to start sponsoring people." Well, this was a whole new world, eh?

[03:27:08.068 – 03:27:13.608] I mean, for 13 years, this guy's been gadflyling, just sort of floating around with the caretaker. [03:27:13.608 – 03:27:17.008] And, uh, he said, "Okay. [03:27:17.008 – 03:27:20.407] We, we'll do it." And, uh, and, and those things happened. [03:27:20.407 – 03:27:21.648] We got into a home group. [03:27:21.648 – 03:27:27.208] He was not just thrilled at getting into service. [03:27:27.208 – 03:27:28.288] He, he, he just… [03:27:28.288 – 03:27:30.288] It wasn't no normal for him. [03:27:30.288 – 03:27:40.608] But I told him that GSR, after he got his feet on the ground pretty good, I said, "You know, GSR has your name written all over it." "Oh, no." "Oh, yeah.

[03:27:40.608 – 03:27:43.368] Oh, yeah." So he made a pretty good GSR. [03:27:43.368 – 03:27:45.748] And, uh, he got through with that. [03:27:45.748 – 03:27:49.268] And I said, "Okay, fine. [03:27:49.268 – 03:27:51.248] DCM's coming up. [03:27:51.248 – 03:27:55.548] You can stand for that." And he got into DCM. [03:27:55.548 – 03:28:02.758] And, uh, so but, but the whole thing, you, you, you d- with, with the thing of sponsorship, sometimes it's leader… [03:28:02.758 – 03:28:04.668] Sponsorship is a type of leadership. [03:28:04.668 – 03:28:10.788] And, and in this kind of a deal, hey, do you think I'm gonna sponsor somebody that's in perpetual aftercare?

[03:28:10.788 – 03:28:12.188] No way, man. [03:28:12.188 – 03:28:15.528] You gotta get out of that and get into recovery if you… [03:28:15.528 – 03:28:17.408] You know, if you want to, if you want me to work with you. [03:28:17.408 – 03:28:18.968] If you just wanna keep on with that stuff, great. [03:28:18.968 – 03:28:19.588] Go for it. [03:28:19.588 – 03:28:24.388] But if you want me to work with you, then we're gonna have to get into, to Alcoholics Anonymous and become a member. [03:28:24.388 – 03:28:28.078] And, um, he, he, he's done it. [03:28:28.078 – 03:28:29.648] Now, he's in our group right now. [03:28:29.648 – 03:28:31.828] He's, uh, he's coming up on 25 years.

[03:28:31.828 – 03:28:34.568] And, uh, he's a leader. [03:28:34.568 – 03:28:35.228] Yeah. [03:28:35.228 – 03:28:39.458] He's, uh, he's, he's, he's, he's got a good way of dealing with people, and he's just… [03:28:39.458 – 03:28:40.728] He's not the same guy. [03:28:40.728 – 03:28:43.068] That was nothing miraculous I did. [03:28:43.068 – 03:28:51.648] All I did was break him out of that thing he was in, and then let him get into feeling the energies of AA, and start feeling that. [03:28:51.648 – 03:28:56.368] And today, in fact, we, uh, we split as a sp- as a, as sponsor. [03:28:56.368 – 03:29:05.348] Uh, with no, no anger or anything like that, that, um, he, he just wanted to do something different.

[03:29:05.348 – 03:29:06.988] And I s- and I gave him a blessing. [03:29:06.988 – 03:29:07.968] I was all for it. [03:29:07.968 – 03:29:12.378] And so we're still the same home group, and, uh, still do a lot of good work. [03:29:12.378 – 03:29:15.852] But, but that, I mean, that's, that's an example. [03:29:15.852 – 03:29:25.872] I hope you can see of that, of, of the kind of thing that we're dealing with, where sponsorship has gotten more lightweight than back when the person that sponsored you [03:29:25.872 – 03:29:28.512] tended to be the person who pulled you out of the pit.

[03:29:28.512 – 03:29:36.992] And, um, so I tell you that, I'll give you one other example of that, the, uh, the, how, how the loyalty goes. [03:29:36.992 – 03:29:43.272] Um, I, I had a, I had a 12-step call, uh, you know, during the day. [03:29:43.272 – 03:29:44.332] It was after I retired. [03:29:44.332 – 03:29:50.272] I had a, got a call in, it was a, a woman that I'd met. [03:29:50.272 – 03:29:54.392] Now I don't, I don't sponsor women, and I don't 12-step women. [03:29:54.392 – 03:29:58.472] I 12-stepped one when I first started 12-stepping. [03:29:58.472 – 03:30:03.712] She trained me to not sponsor w- not to 12-step women.

[03:30:03.712 – 03:30:06.032] And, uh, she trained me very well. [03:30:06.032 – 03:30:10.172] Uh, gave me a good workout, and, uh, I escaped pure. [03:30:10.172 – 03:30:17.791] But The, uh, but it told me that I, I gotta be careful what kind of a message I carried. [03:30:17.791 – 03:30:25.272] And, uh, so when, if I, if I 12-step a woman, I, I take a woman with me. [03:30:25.272 – 03:30:27.032] I don't care who it is. [03:30:27.032 – 03:30:30.632] I guarantee my mother went on more 12-step calls than most members. [03:30:30.632 – 03:30:33.612] 'Cause she knew she had to take care of her little boy.

[03:30:33.612 – 03:30:37.092] And so when I get out there in this wild, wicked world, she'd go with me. [03:30:37.092 – 03:30:39.912] A sister, I'd pick up a hitchhiker. [03:30:39.912 – 03:30:43.672] I don't care who it is, I'm gonna take a woman with me of some quality. [03:30:43.672 – 03:30:51.692] And, uh, and it, and the, uh, and I, I, I generally don't sponsor women. [03:30:51.692 – 03:30:54.071] Uh, but I, I like boy, boy, girl, girl. [03:30:54.071 – 03:30:58.792] And, uh, I had, I had to make two exceptions. [03:30:58.792 – 03:31:06.552] There was a, a woman, I was trying to get AA going in her town, and a woman came in from the West Coast from, from, uh, the, the Los Angeles area.

[03:31:06.552 – 03:31:10.112] And boy, you talk about glitzy and glamorous, uh, she was. [03:31:10.112 – 03:31:11.652] She was a knockout of a woman. [03:31:11.652 – 03:31:15.422] Almost broke my pledge of purity, but anyway, I didn't. [03:31:15.422 – 03:31:18.912] And she's a great gal. [03:31:18.912 – 03:31:20.132] A great gal. [03:31:20.132 – 03:31:25.492] And I was just praying so hard for a woman, because my God, man, we had a run on, on women. [03:31:25.492 – 03:31:28.172] And I, man, I was at a dire threat. [03:31:28.172 – 03:31:32.192] So I was, I was really wanted a woman, and here she came. [03:31:32.192 – 03:31:35.632] Every man in my town was thrilled.

[03:31:35.632 – 03:31:36.032] Yeah. [03:31:36.032 – 03:31:36.772] Every man. [03:31:36.772 – 03:31:40.392] The guy, diamonds on her fingers everywhere. [03:31:40.392 – 03:31:41.512] I mean, she was something. [03:31:41.512 – 03:31:44.132] And every woman in town was mad. [03:31:44.132 – 03:31:45.692] I mean, they were flat mad. [03:31:45.692 – 03:31:49.012] If their husband was in AA, they'd put the leash on that boy. [03:31:49.012 – 03:31:52.532] And, uh, but she was a lifesaver to me. [03:31:52.532 – 03:31:55.752] And, uh, now I still, I sponsor her. [03:31:55.752 – 03:32:01.072] She's in her, in her, in her late 80s now and, and, uh, I love her forever. [03:32:01.072 – 03:32:07.762] But that, that, you know, I, I made an exception there because of just the special nature of that and the teamwork we were doing.

[03:32:07.762 – 03:32:09.312] Great, great stuff. [03:32:09.312 – 03:32:14.611] And I swear to God, I, I, I've got another one that a guy left me in his will. [03:32:14.611 – 03:32:16.492] Now do you believe that? [03:32:16.492 – 03:32:18.412] I mean, he left me- … [03:32:18.412 – 03:32:19.062] in his will. [03:32:19.062 – 03:32:20.641] I mean, God, he had a boat. [03:32:20.641 – 03:32:22.252] I'd have loved to had the boat. [03:32:22.252 – 03:32:25.551] And his, and, and he, he… [03:32:25.551 – 03:32:29.352] Will, how you gonna turn down somebody in a will? [03:32:29.352 – 03:32:31.252] And I, I, I did… [03:32:31.252 – 03:32:36.672] He knew he was gonna get the last shot at me, 'cause we, we And I've got her.

[03:32:36.672 – 03:32:37.752] I mean, what are you gonna do? [03:32:37.752 – 03:32:39.092] Dig him up and argue with him? [03:32:39.092 – 03:32:41.482] I, you, yeah, I've got her. [03:32:41.482 – 03:32:42.992] Oh. [03:32:42.992 – 03:32:47.712] But anyway, it wasn't my fault. [03:32:47.712 – 03:32:57.772] But anyway, I, what I was gonna tell you, I got a call a, a, a couple, something, two or threes, four years, something like [03:32:57.772 – 03:32:57.952] that. [03:32:57.952 – 03:33:02.352] Got a call in, in midday, and, uh, I started trying to find a woman. [03:33:02.352 – 03:33:07.812] I live in a small town, and we're not overrun with, with road, roadworthy women that are ready to go out and do 12-step work.

[03:33:07.812 – 03:33:13.352] And, and so I called a, uh, I called around and got nobody. [03:33:13.352 – 03:33:19.112] My wife was getting ready to go do something, uh, get her claws sharpened or something. [03:33:19.112 – 03:33:22.212] I, I don't know what she gonna do, but, but she was going somewhere. [03:33:22.212 – 03:33:25.451] And I was on the phone, and I said, "Wait a minute. [03:33:25.451 – 03:33:29.472] I might need you." Well, I thought she kept going. [03:33:29.472 – 03:33:36.432] And then I finally gave up calling, and she came back in, she said, "Do you really need me for something?" I said, "Well, yeah, I sure do.

[03:33:36.432 – 03:33:37.702] You gotta protect your husband. [03:33:37.702 – 03:33:39.492] I've got a 12-step call. [03:33:39.492 – 03:33:44.772] I gotta go, and, uh, yeah, I'd like for you to go with me." She'd never even seen a 12-step call. [03:33:45.516 – 03:33:52.636] She'd been in Al-Anon for a long, long time, but she had, uh, grew up in the prairies of Saskatchewan in Canada, for God's sake. [03:33:52.636 – 03:33:55.076] She, she didn't know what an alcoholic was till she met me. [03:33:55.076 – 03:33:56.016] She learned quickly. [03:33:56.016 – 03:33:59.516] When she met me, and even though I was sober, she knew there was something wild about it.

[03:33:59.516 – 03:34:08.896] And so, so she, uh, she said, "Well, if you need me, I'll go." She rarely said that, but she did. [03:34:08.896 – 03:34:13.536] Said, "If you need me, I'll go." Well, you, you know, if you've been, you kn- you don't need to describe the scene. [03:34:13.536 – 03:34:15.116] I mean, it's just typical, this gal. [03:34:15.116 – 03:34:18.636] Typical drunk-looking room. [03:34:18.636 – 03:34:21.915] Yeah, just everything was a mess, including her. [03:34:21.915 – 03:34:25.576] Uh, so, you know, I didn't have any idea what my wife would do. [03:34:25.576 – 03:34:30.336] You, you know, it's a, it's a pretty repulsive thing when you walk into a, into a situation.

[03:34:30.336 – 03:34:33.656] So I was watching her more than I watched the woman that was… [03:34:33.656 – 03:34:37.956] Whether, whether she would bolt and run. [03:34:37.956 – 03:34:40.396] I didn't do anything. [03:34:40.396 – 03:34:44.716] Is it working? [03:34:44.716 – 03:34:45.536] It is? [03:34:45.536 – 03:34:48.736] My ears went on me or something. [03:34:48.736 – 03:34:50.076] It is. [03:34:50.076 – 03:34:50.436] You all right? [03:34:50.436 – 03:34:50.876] You on? [03:34:50.876 – 03:34:51.475] Okay. [03:34:51.475 – 03:34:52.696] Jeff, sorry about that. [03:34:52.696 – 03:34:54.036] Yeah, but she… [03:34:54.036 – 03:34:57.676] When we walked in, it was interesting to watch her reaction. [03:34:57.676 – 03:35:02.576] Instead of backing off or being repelled by what she saw, she just moved in. [03:35:02.576 – 03:35:05.296] And I swear to God, she just took over.

[03:35:05.296 – 03:35:09.356] You know, I'm standing over and what, observing these two women going at it. [03:35:09.356 – 03:35:10.736] And we got her… [03:35:10.736 – 03:35:11.266] She needed… [03:35:11.266 – 03:35:12.486] I thought she was suicidal. [03:35:12.486 – 03:35:14.216] That was one reason I was so desperate to do something. [03:35:14.216 – 03:35:18.496] So we got her, got her some attention, you know, just to make sure about, about her deal. [03:35:18.496 – 03:35:26.116] Well, gal's still sober, and, uh, I, I gave her away in marriage a, a little while back. [03:35:26.116 – 03:35:26.186] Aw. [03:35:26.186 – 03:35:26.396] Yeah. [03:35:26.396 – 03:35:29.356] I was glad to get rid of her.

[03:35:29.356 – 03:35:30.156] I gave her away. [03:35:30.156 – 03:35:34.896] Her dad, she didn't have a dad, so. [03:35:34.896 – 03:35:41.736] Anyway, but she takes my wife to lunch every two weeks. [03:35:41.736 – 03:35:44.076] They've never taken me. [03:35:44.076 – 03:35:45.296] I saved her life. [03:35:45.296 – 03:35:49.956] And I mean, she doesn't even say howdy to me. [03:35:49.956 – 03:35:55.656] They've got, they, they've got an Al-Anon Well, more power to them. [03:35:55.656 – 03:36:05.676] But anyway, you know, in, in sponsoring, there are just all kinds of little wriggles and things you get into, but yeah, those are just things that I, that

[03:36:05.676 – 03:36:07.376] I practice in doing that. [03:36:07.376 – 03:36:13.895] And then, uh, I'll, I'll run back through and, and, and just take a little more time, and then we can interact some if you'd like. [03:36:13.895 – 03:36:16.256] I'm no expert on this. [03:36:16.256 – 03:36:20.456] I've got a way that I do stuff that, that I believe in or I wouldn't be doing it this way. [03:36:20.456 – 03:36:23.136] And, uh, but I'm not selling. [03:36:23.136 – 03:36:26.376] It doesn't matter to me if anybody else in the world does what I do. [03:36:26.376 – 03:36:27.716] I could not care less.

[03:36:27.716 – 03:36:31.396] You know, I do, I do what I believe is the right thing to do. [03:36:31.396 – 03:36:35.196] And if people ask me about it, I'm happy to share it. [03:36:35.196 – 03:36:42.296] And, um, so, and, and, and I've, I've run it down a little bit on, on this, this whole business of… [03:36:42.296 – 03:36:46.296] It, it, it, you know, I'll, I'll rehash it again a little bit. [03:36:46.296 – 03:36:56.616] When, when, uh, I, I mentioned yesterday about how I set up with my current sponsor who's, to about 25 years ago, and, and he's a guy that, uh, uh,

[03:36:56.616 – 03:37:00.576] right now he's having to live in, uh, what you call assisted living situation. [03:37:00.576 – 03:37:07.296] He had some strokes and, uh, and he, he's functional, but, but m- just minimally, minimally functional. [03:37:07.296 – 03:37:17.436] And, and so long before that happened 25 years ago, uh, my sp- my sponsor, then sponsor developed Alzheimer's. [03:37:17.436 – 03:37:21.436] And, um, I don't know about you, but and I have never… [03:37:21.436 – 03:37:25.896] I've had five sponsors in, in my l- in, in my life in AA. [03:37:25.896 – 03:37:28.196] I have never fired one.

[03:37:28.196 – 03:37:31.416] To me, that's a reprehensible term. [03:37:31.416 – 03:37:35.316] How do you fire somebody from a spiritual relationship? [03:37:35.316 – 03:37:37.716] I mean, that's a gross term to me. [03:37:37.716 – 03:37:47.696] And if, if, if, if I've got somebody that wants to, wants, wants to do something like that, what I always tell them, thank them for their service and tell them that you've decided to do something else. [03:37:47.696 – 03:37:49.876] There's no crisis to that. [03:37:49.876 – 03:37:50.996] I mean, it's just one of those things. [03:37:50.996 – 03:37:53.996] People grow at different spaces, different directions.

[03:37:53.996 – 03:37:56.596] We're not a clone factory here, you know? [03:37:56.596 – 03:38:03.555] And so, you know, I always, uh, try to encourage people to, to express your appreciation and then move on with your life, for God's sakes. [03:38:03.555 – 03:38:04.916] Don't make a crisis out of it. [03:38:04.916 – 03:38:09.056] And, uh, so but I've never, I've never had to. [03:38:09.056 – 03:38:14.816] I mean, the, the, uh, I've never had to change sponsors where it was of my volition. [03:38:14.816 – 03:38:18.996] Uh, mine have, have all died. [03:38:18.996 – 03:38:22.996] Some, you know, the, uh, the, uh, the, most of the…

[03:38:22.996 – 03:38:25.236] Well, anyway, most of them have died. [03:38:25.236 – 03:38:28.576] And, and my, the one guy went into Alzheimer's, then later died. [03:38:28.576 – 03:38:35.016] But I've never had to terminate on my initiative any of my sponsors, 'cause I picked them pretty carefully. [03:38:35.016 – 03:38:44.466] And, uh, one had, had Alzheimer's, um, he came, uh, that we had my 35th anniversary. [03:38:44.466 – 03:38:47.676] Uh, he came down for that, some people brought him down. [03:38:47.676 – 03:38:49.196] He'd already started to, to… [03:38:49.196 – 03:38:50.696] I knew he was having some problem. [03:38:50.696 – 03:39:00.816] Didn't know what it was, but he came down there and he said, "I need to talk to you." Well, I mean, when your sponsor says, "I need to talk

[03:39:00.816 – 03:39:03.336] to you," that usually means woodshed, you know? [03:39:03.336 – 03:39:07.676] And, uh, uh, so I said, "Yes, sir." And so we went over and found a corner. [03:39:07.676 – 03:39:18.416] And he said, "I gotta get something straight." "What?" He said, "Do I sponsor you, or you sponsor me?" I [03:39:18.416 – 03:39:23.416] said, "You sponsor me, and don't you forget it." But I mean, obviously it was over, eh? [03:39:23.416 – 03:39:26.296] I mean, he's still, he's still a part of my… [03:39:26.296 – 03:39:28.036] He was a part of my life till he died.

[03:39:28.036 – 03:39:31.106] It's, he'll always be a part of my life, you know. [03:39:31.106 – 03:39:36.875] But, but I had to have a sponsor that was functional, and I didn't discontinue that relationship. [03:39:36.875 – 03:39:39.816] What a dumb thing to think I've got to terminate. [03:39:39.816 – 03:39:44.036] What I did was retire him to a place of, of honor in my life. [03:39:44.036 – 03:39:48.236] I never did get, terminate that relationship. [03:39:48.236 – 03:39:50.304] I didn't need to, it was over. [03:39:50.304 – 03:39:56.823] You know, I mean, I could have talked all I wanted to, but I might as well have been talking to my golden retriever, because he's just not there.

[03:39:56.823 – 03:40:00.743] And so I knew I had to start looking, and, and so I started looking. [03:40:00.743 – 03:40:04.304] And, and, and, and, and, and what I do when I'm looking for a sponsor… [03:40:04.304 – 03:40:07.544] Now, I don't know about you, but, but I have a… [03:40:07.544 – 03:40:14.904] I mean, it's not a, a hard, rigid criteria, but I've got a criteria for what I'm looking for in a sponsor. [03:40:14.904 – 03:40:18.044] I don't want somebody with a pretty smile. [03:40:18.044 – 03:40:21.514] And I don't care if they do, but I mean, I don't really…

[03:40:21.514 – 03:40:22.324] I don't care if they don't. [03:40:22.324 – 03:40:28.304] But I want somebody, it's just my own peculiarity, I want somebody senior to me. [03:40:28.304 – 03:40:36.884] Nothing magic about that, but I just want somebody that has walked in front of me, and I just kind of honor that. [03:40:36.884 – 03:40:40.304] So I don't want somebody junior to me. [03:40:40.304 – 03:40:42.374] And, uh, that, that, that… [03:40:42.374 – 03:40:45.544] Well, someday, if I live long enough, that'll probably change, you know. [03:40:45.544 – 03:40:47.804] But, but that, that's my… [03:40:47.804 – 03:40:51.544] My deal is that I w- I want somebody older than me in the program.

[03:40:51.544 – 03:40:56.364] I want somebody that's active in all aspects of Al-Anon. [03:40:56.364 – 03:40:59.984] I don't want somebody who's nothing but recovery and me, me, me. [03:40:59.984 – 03:41:02.744] I want somebody that's active in all legacies. [03:41:02.744 – 03:41:05.824] Active in recovery, unity, service. [03:41:05.824 – 03:41:08.804] I want somebody that's a leader type of person. [03:41:08.804 – 03:41:11.784] You know, I'm not interested in somebody that's in semi-retirement. [03:41:11.784 – 03:41:15.724] I want somebody active, who's a good ex- I want somebody that's enthusiastic. [03:41:15.724 – 03:41:18.864] I truly value enthusiasm. [03:41:18.864 – 03:41:20.324] I think it's a healing quality. [03:41:20.324 – 03:41:23.004] Absolutely healing quality.

[03:41:23.004 – 03:41:25.104] So I'm looking for that in someone. [03:41:25.104 – 03:41:25.944] I w- I want a… [03:41:25.944 – 03:41:36.024] I, I was here in Tampa for a while back, Tampa Bay Roundup one time, and my sponsorship line was here, that we, we [03:41:36.024 – 03:41:37.844] did a good part of the program. [03:41:37.844 – 03:41:38.214] I was young. [03:41:38.214 – 03:41:42.804] My, my sponsor, somebody I sponsor, he sponsored, you know, you know, the typical line. [03:41:42.804 – 03:41:43.624] And we did the deal. [03:41:43.624 – 03:41:53.264] We did a panel, and one of the questions that was addressed to me said, "What do you look for in a sponsor?" And I…

[03:41:53.264 – 03:41:58.323] And my sponsor, you gotta, you, you, you'd, you'd have to understand him, and I'll tell you why in just a second. [03:41:58.323 – 03:42:02.064] He is not your average house cat. [03:42:02.064 – 03:42:09.424] And, uh, I s- I said, sorta in jest, but I said, "I want somebody," and I mentioned those elements. [03:42:09.424 – 03:42:19.884] And I said, "I also want somebody that's brave enough to tell that stupid rabbit joke that you've all heard for 40 years." [03:42:19.884 – 03:42:22.844] And it is a kindergarten joke. [03:42:22.844 – 03:42:27.604] And that dude has been telling it all over the world for maybe 40 years then.

[03:42:27.604 – 03:42:31.304] People just laugh, but it's ridiculous. [03:42:31.304 – 03:42:34.474] And you've gotta be brave to tell that thing, you know. [03:42:34.474 – 03:42:38.374] So I said, "I want somebody brave enough to tell that dumb joke." He's sitting there. [03:42:38.374 – 03:42:38.704] You… [03:42:38.704 – 03:42:47.424] "And I want somebody brave enough to wear that coat of many colors that he wears." And he, he's a guy that's like a peacock, you know. [03:42:47.424 – 03:42:50.844] I mean, he, he made Liberace look like a pallbearer. [03:42:50.844 – 03:42:52.344] He, uh, that- That's… [03:42:52.344 – 03:42:53.264] He… [03:42:53.264 – 03:42:58.824] You talk about a guy lighting it up with fuchsia and, and lavender, and God knows what all.

[03:42:58.824 – 03:43:06.644] But I said, "Somebody that's, that's brave enough to wear that stupid kind of an outfit." And I was kidding, but that's part of it. [03:43:06.644 – 03:43:08.464] I mean, this is a guy that enjoys life. [03:43:08.464 – 03:43:10.144] He has a great time, and, uh… [03:43:10.144 – 03:43:12.124] And so that's what I look for. [03:43:12.124 – 03:43:20.664] Now, when I'm looking for a sponsor with that criteria, I'm not gonna find him on every block. [03:43:20.664 – 03:43:26.544] And so as I've gotten older in the program, what I do is just draw a widening circle.

[03:43:26.544 – 03:43:29.484] Love to have him in my same, same town. [03:43:29.484 – 03:43:31.164] Not there. [03:43:31.164 – 03:43:33.584] In my district, my region. [03:43:33.584 – 03:43:36.024] Uh, you know, not, he's not in my state. [03:43:36.024 – 03:43:38.724] I'm the oldest active male in my state. [03:43:38.724 – 03:43:40.384] And so I can't… [03:43:40.384 – 03:43:43.344] I'm not gonna find it at the area of convenience. [03:43:43.344 – 03:43:49.264] Personally, I would rather compromise on proximity than principle. [03:43:49.264 – 03:43:52.504] If I gotta compromise, it'll be on proximity. [03:43:52.504 – 03:43:55.364] So I just widen the circle. [03:43:55.364 – 03:44:05.063] And the last time I did it, when my, my fellow with Alzheimer's w- went away, I didn't hit pay work, pay dirt till I got to Prince Albert, Saskatchewan.

[03:44:05.063 – 03:44:07.224] And there he was. [03:44:07.224 – 03:44:08.104] There he was. [03:44:08.104 – 03:44:09.803] You know, I had met him. [03:44:09.803 – 03:44:13.604] He had introduced me to my wife, who was from there. [03:44:13.604 – 03:44:21.444] I figured, "Well, if you get me in this mess, you at least ought to help me deal with it." And so, so he was obligated to be, to agree. [03:44:21.444 – 03:44:24.964] And so I, I asked him, we were gonna be… [03:44:24.964 – 03:44:26.374] Now, I, I don't like to do it over- [03:44:26.574 – 03:44:27.004] the phone. [03:44:27.004 – 03:44:30.864] You know, I don't like to, to try to consummate that kind of marriage over the phone.

[03:44:30.864 – 03:44:34.324] So we were both scheduled to be in Midland, Texas. [03:44:34.324 – 03:44:41.864] And, and I d- uh, I had the game plan that I really wanted to, to get him to, to buy into. [03:44:41.864 – 03:44:44.263] We agreed to meet. [03:44:44.263 – 03:44:46.944] We said, "Just set aside a couple hours." We went to… [03:44:46.944 – 03:44:48.824] Went, went, went somewhere, found a corner. [03:44:48.824 – 03:44:52.424] And I told him what I was looking for. [03:44:52.424 – 03:44:56.964] And, and, and, uh, he wanted to know what I was looking for, so I told him what I was looking for.

[03:44:56.964 – 03:45:02.683] And, um, then he just responded. [03:45:02.683 – 03:45:10.364] He didn't lay out anything, he just responded, and he said, "What do you want?" And then I brought up what I mentioned yesterday. [03:45:10.364 – 03:45:20.684] I gave that man, that day, permission to come into my life anytime he wished to do so [03:45:20.684 – 03:45:21.964] about anything. [03:45:21.964 – 03:45:27.183] There's absolutely nothing that's out of bounds. [03:45:27.183 – 03:45:29.164] Don't care what it is. [03:45:29.164 – 03:45:35.424] Uh, you know, he's the guy I'm asking to be the observer of my life. [03:45:35.424 – 03:45:43.164] I'm, I'm asking him to look close, and if he sees something that's out of whack or doesn't look like it's going the right direction, I want him to tell me.

[03:45:43.164 – 03:45:45.284] That's what I pay him for. [03:45:45.284 – 03:45:47.704] Don't pay well, but, but that's what I pay him for. [03:45:47.704 – 03:45:52.743] I want that dude to c- to help me stay steady as, as I go. [03:45:52.743 – 03:45:57.964] That anytime he calls me, I'll answer. [03:45:57.964 – 03:46:04.324] He's also the guy I call when I'm in tr- when I've got something that's bugging me. [03:46:04.324 – 03:46:05.684] He's my… [03:46:05.684 – 03:46:07.244] I don't have to think about who to call. [03:46:07.244 – 03:46:08.104] I know who to call. [03:46:08.104 – 03:46:10.604] I call, and he'll answer the phone. [03:46:10.604 – 03:46:13.484] Yeah, I want that kind of an agreement.

[03:46:13.484 – 03:46:19.704] He's free to talk to me about anything, absolutely anything whatsoever. [03:46:19.704 – 03:46:24.944] And so what I've got is a man who's got complete access to my life. [03:46:24.944 – 03:46:29.064] He doesn't have to be uncomfortable about anything he's doing. [03:46:29.064 – 03:46:31.844] I've, I've asked him to do just that. [03:46:31.844 – 03:46:33.744] He said it works great. [03:46:33.744 – 03:46:43.804] And, uh, you know, I don't re- I, I wish I had somebody closer, but in all honesty, as you get older in the program, you'll, you'll, you'll tend to have

[03:46:43.804 – 03:46:46.024] fewer and fewer 911 calls. [03:46:46.024 – 03:46:48.144] You know, I mean, it just stands to reason. [03:46:48.144 – 03:46:51.484] You're gonna have a lot, lot less crisis and absolute emergency. [03:46:51.484 – 03:47:00.444] There's some once in a while, but mostly for people who have, who have, who have stayed s- solid in the program, there's rarely a crisis. [03:47:00.444 – 03:47:02.684] It's more like ethical concerns. [03:47:02.684 – 03:47:12.844] It's ethical con- uh, principle concerns, and, and concerns about something outside of y- yourself when you, when, when you, when you, when you mature

[03:47:12.844 – 03:47:13.444] in the program. [03:47:13.444 – 03:47:14.484] Sound better than get old. [03:47:14.484 – 03:47:16.364] When you mature in the program. [03:47:16.364 – 03:47:17.824] And so I don't need that. [03:47:17.824 – 03:47:21.724] You know, and I need somebody that can communicate about, at about, about that level. [03:47:21.724 – 03:47:23.044] And so… [03:47:23.044 – 03:47:24.144] And that's what I've got. [03:47:24.144 – 03:47:28.544] And that's how I t- I try, try, that's why I try to set up sponsorship. [03:47:28.544 – 03:47:35.564] He was the first guy I ever did that with, and, uh, and then I've done it with everybody I sponsored since then.

[03:47:35.564 – 03:47:45.264] And it, it really is, it makes it comfortable, and it gets rid of any barriers or, or discomfort in that relationship. [03:47:45.264 – 03:47:55.244] A lot of times, you know, people just respond and say, "Well, we'll try it out." And, uh, that's a shaky way to do it. [03:47:55.244 – 03:48:01.404] Uh, because usually what'll happen is that you'll put up with it till somebody gets aggravated and then just disappear. [03:48:01.404 – 03:48:10.644] Sometimes it'll work out, but, but, you know, it, it's just sort of, t- to me, not a good businesslike way to do, do the, the business of my life.

[03:48:10.644 – 03:48:13.984] And, and, and so that, that's, that's the way I like to go at it. [03:48:13.984 – 03:48:15.184] I've got… [03:48:15.184 – 03:48:17.804] Now, my sponsor says he's gonna outlive me. [03:48:17.804 – 03:48:27.804] He's coming up on 58 years, and, um, I don't know if he will or not, but I mean, in case he [03:48:27.804 – 03:48:30.704] doesn't, I got my next one picked out. [03:48:30.704 – 03:48:34.064] You know, when you get it, it… [03:48:34.064 – 03:48:37.944] When you get to this point, where do you go? [03:48:37.944 – 03:48:39.324] I mean, how, how you gonna find? [03:48:39.324 – 03:48:40.124] If you…

[03:48:40.124 – 03:48:43.284] That criteria I gave, you can bet that's hard to find. [03:48:43.284 – 03:48:45.883] Now, I know who the next will be. [03:48:45.883 – 03:48:46.644] He doesn't know it. [03:48:46.644 – 03:48:49.244] Just talked to him a couple days ago. [03:48:49.244 – 03:48:50.864] He didn't get it. [03:48:50.864 – 03:48:57.704] I said, "Boy, you don't know it, but you practicing." And, but, I mean, that's what you gotta do. [03:48:57.704 – 03:49:04.304] And it's, if you, if you put s- if you put real importance on sponsorship, it has an important role. [03:49:04.304 – 03:49:10.524] If it's just some casual how-do-you-do thing, I mean, my God, that's just like having a pal or something, you know.

[03:49:10.524 – 03:49:18.344] And there's nothing wrong with those, but I'm about the business of trying to recover from a deadly illness called alcoholism. [03:49:18.344 – 03:49:27.624] I'm about the business of trying to be of service, of trying to take a p-responsible place in this world, and I don't want casual, you know, patty cake stuff. [03:49:27.624 – 03:49:28.604] I can get all that I want. [03:49:28.604 – 03:49:31.604] I'm looking for somebody that'll shoot straight with me. [03:49:31.604 – 03:49:32.984] So that's what I do. [03:49:32.984 – 03:49:35.304] I, I, uh, I go at it that way.

[03:49:35.304 – 03:49:38.164] I wouldn't introduce it as a model. [03:49:38.164 – 03:49:41.304] Well, I would, but I mean, just say it's my model. [03:49:41.304 – 03:49:51.804] And, uh, you know, if I'm, if I'm doing a sponsorship workshop, which, which, which I do a fair number of, what I basically try to get across to people [03:49:51.804 – 03:49:54.144] is, uh, I always, I always… [03:49:54.144 – 03:50:01.264] I like to do the interactive stuff, so I always try to want to get a board, and then I'll just put down four things, and they're basically what I talked about here.

[03:50:01.264 – 03:50:02.244] You know, how do you find one? [03:50:02.244 – 03:50:05.523] You know, you know, you know, what are the characteristics you're looking for? [03:50:05.523 – 03:50:06.924] How do you go about setting it up? [03:50:06.924 – 03:50:09.364] How do you deal with it when it's not working? [03:50:09.364 – 03:50:11.004] You know, uh, all that kind of stuff. [03:50:11.004 – 03:50:12.324] And so that's what I want… [03:50:12.324 – 03:50:22.404] The only thing I want to do is get people thinking to be more attentive to it than just saying, "Grab somebody and see how it works out." And, uh, because it is, you know, it's my life that I'm investing.

[03:50:22.404 – 03:50:24.224] That's why I want to be pretty thoughtful about that. [03:50:24.224 – 03:50:29.904] So any, any, anybody, reaction, question, comments? [03:50:29.904 – 03:50:31.094] Whatever. [03:50:31.094 – 03:50:32.044] Old Mike's waiting. [03:50:32.044 – 03:50:34.364] Let me get to. [03:50:34.364 – 03:50:37.034] Yeah. [03:50:37.034 – 03:50:45.434] There it goes. [03:50:45.434 – 03:50:47.074] I'm Beth, I'm an alcoholic. [03:50:47.074 – 03:50:47.614] Hi, Beth. [03:50:47.614 – 03:50:57.824] And, uh, I've been wrestling with this issue for a while, Tom, and I wanted to ask you, how available do you believe that a sponsor needs [03:50:57.824 – 03:51:00.234] to be for a sponsee? [03:51:00.234 – 03:51:07.274] And I'm not just talking about for a new, a newcomer, but somebody who's been, well, like yourself.

[03:51:07.274 – 03:51:08.294] It's, uh… [03:51:08.294 – 03:51:11.274] I, I, I don't have a general answer. [03:51:11.274 – 03:51:15.393] What, what I do is I establish that with every person I sponsor. [03:51:15.393 – 03:51:19.854] Like I've got, for example, Tuesday is telephone day. [03:51:19.854 – 03:51:22.614] You know, I sponsor a lot of people out of state. [03:51:22.614 – 03:51:28.454] You know, I don't, I don't sponsor anybody out of state that's not over 10 years sober, because I think below 10 you, you gotta… [03:51:28.454 – 03:51:30.114] You need that association. [03:51:30.114 – 03:51:31.694] You need that, the camaraderie. [03:51:31.694 – 03:51:35.474] And, and nothing magic happens at 10, but it's just a line I drew.

[03:51:35.474 – 03:51:38.714] But I always establish that. [03:51:38.714 – 03:51:39.414] Like I've got… [03:51:39.414 – 03:51:44.514] I, I try to get people to share with me what will work for them. [03:51:44.514 – 03:51:51.334] You know, I'm unemployed, you know, and so that doesn't mean I'm not busy, but, but I'm, but I'm unemployed and I've got some latitude in that. [03:51:51.334 – 03:51:54.834] A lot of my guys for some reason like to call on Tuesday. [03:51:54.834 – 03:52:00.134] And so I, I set up Tuesday as telephone day unless something overriding. [03:52:00.134 – 03:52:02.214] If something overriding, I'll, I…

[03:52:02.214 – 03:52:03.094] Most of them got email. [03:52:03.094 – 03:52:05.904] I'll send an email and say, "I gotta be over here at the podunk and I'll be back. [03:52:05.904 – 03:52:14.814] Uh, could kick it up to Monday." But I want an established time when we go in, and I want it to be primarily their initiative. [03:52:14.814 – 03:52:17.134] I don't wanna direct them when to call. [03:52:17.134 – 03:52:20.174] Uh, they, they tend to be fairly busy in life as well. [03:52:20.174 – 03:52:20.434] So I… [03:52:20.434 – 03:52:22.634] We negotiate that in front. [03:52:22.634 – 03:52:23.974] Frequency. [03:52:23.974 – 03:52:26.574] I've got some people who call more frequently than others.

[03:52:26.574 – 03:52:33.234] And, um, I I sponsored a guy up in Alaska. [03:52:33.234 – 03:52:35.994] Well, I'm partially sponsored a guy up in Alaska. [03:52:35.994 – 03:52:43.034] I was up there at a conference and, uh, I, I, you know, I was drunk on Adak Island in the Aleutians for a long time. [03:52:43.034 – 03:52:53.174] And I asked just rhetorically to the group, I thought, "Anybody here from Adak Island?" This guy shot his hand [03:52:53.174 – 03:52:53.694] up in the air. [03:52:53.694 – 03:52:57.834] I said, "You from Adak?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Leave your hand up.

[03:52:57.834 – 03:52:59.074] Leave your hand up. [03:52:59.074 – 03:53:04.684] I want these people to see you so they'll recognize you because you a nutcase." No. [03:53:04.684 – 03:53:06.004] "You have gotta be a nutcase. [03:53:06.004 – 03:53:11.374] If you grew up on that island, you outta your head, boy." "Hold your hand high." You know, said he's crazier than… [03:53:11.374 – 03:53:16.674] And, and I was just woofing with him, but I mean, you know. [03:53:16.674 – 03:53:18.654] I mean, I knew he was sort of tough. [03:53:18.654 – 03:53:21.134] So anyway, I w- worked him over a little bit.

[03:53:21.134 – 03:53:24.974] After the meeting he came up and he said, we was having a bet. [03:53:24.974 – 03:53:30.674] He said, "Will you sponsor me?" I said, "No, I won't sponsor you." I said, "Man, I wasn't kidding. [03:53:30.674 – 03:53:33.913] Anybody's a nut that come out of there." I don't sponsor maniacs. [03:53:33.913 – 03:53:36.594] Yeah, particularly in the other side of the world. [03:53:36.594 – 03:53:39.624] And, uh, and he was adamant about it. [03:53:39.624 – 03:53:43.874] I said, "No, I won't do it." So what we agreed on is that he'd call once a month.

[03:53:43.874 – 03:53:45.694] You know, it costs a lot to call from Alaska. [03:53:45.694 – 03:53:48.194] And said once a month he would call. [03:53:48.194 – 03:53:51.254] And I'm not sponsoring him, but I'm available. [03:53:51.254 – 03:53:59.434] And so once a month I talk with him Tuesday, this week, and that's, that's his, his day, is he called in and just basically telling me what's going on. [03:53:59.434 – 03:54:01.074] And old boy doing good. [03:54:01.074 – 03:54:04.534] Just had both knees cut off and s- put some machinery in there. [03:54:04.534 – 03:54:05.814] And he doing great. [03:54:05.814 – 03:54:07.114] Getting married in September.

[03:54:07.114 – 03:54:09.714] He's not half as crazy as I thought he was. [03:54:09.714 – 03:54:10.574] He was… [03:54:10.574 – 03:54:12.904] But he's pretty crazy. [03:54:12.904 – 03:54:13.084] Yeah. [03:54:13.084 – 03:54:14.704] But that, that's what I do. [03:54:14.704 – 03:54:16.114] I, I wanna set that up. [03:54:16.114 – 03:54:21.374] That's what the terms of agreement are about, is that, you know, some people don't need a, a bunch of stuff. [03:54:21.374 – 03:54:23.354] Some people, if, if they… [03:54:23.354 – 03:54:24.094] Some people… [03:54:24.094 – 03:54:32.434] And I don't sponsor too many brand new people because I'm just not accessible enough, and, uh, it's not fair, you know, to sponsor somebody.

[03:54:32.434 – 03:54:33.314] I'll do a… [03:54:33.314 – 03:54:37.974] We, in our group, we encourage temporary sponsorship, and I'm a big fan of that. [03:54:37.974 – 03:54:41.174] You know, some people say, "Well, that's like temporary recovery." Baloney. [03:54:41.174 – 03:54:42.854] You know, if you start thinking… [03:54:42.854 – 03:54:48.634] If you think about the sponsorship with the qualities I'm talking about, you're not gonna find that y- day one. [03:54:48.634 – 03:54:50.874] You're gonna have to look it over. [03:54:50.874 – 03:54:53.514] You're gonna have to examine it and to give it the test of time. [03:54:53.514 – 03:54:57.714] And so we u- in our group, we use, uh, what we call temporary sponsorship.

[03:54:57.714 – 03:55:07.614] What that means is that it, that it's good for 60 days, and within that 60 days the temporary sponsor will help the person understand what a home- [03:55:07.832 – 03:55:14.652] Group is about how to make meetings, about, you know, assuring that there's somebody who wants to hear from you, you call me, you know, that kind of thing. [03:55:14.652 – 03:55:17.992] So we use it as a, as a preliminary. [03:55:17.992 – 03:55:27.852] At the end of 60 days, we want the person to be prepared to move into permanent sponsorship or make the temporary permanent, which often happens.

[03:55:27.852 – 03:55:37.872] So there, there, you know, a lot of approaches, as you well know, that, that, um, the big thing is that you get a, a, a sensible, cogent kind [03:55:37.872 – 03:55:39.752] of an agreement that's both… [03:55:39.752 – 03:55:40.932] It's okay on both sides. [03:55:40.932 – 03:55:48.182] With the temporary, what we encourage our sponsors to do is we want the guy to call regu- very frequently. [03:55:48.182 – 03:55:56.752] If you, if you don't hear from him for three days, normally you want the, the new guy to call, but if you don't hear from him for three days, you call.

[03:55:56.752 – 03:56:02.852] Because, uh, uh, sometimes for a newcomer it is hard to call, and so we do that. [03:56:02.852 – 03:56:04.112] So that's… [03:56:04.112 – 03:56:08.692] But either way, we want to have some real clear agreement of what we're doing. [03:56:08.692 – 03:56:12.271] We're not just fumbling around here trying to run into each other. [03:56:12.271 – 03:56:19.512] You know, that we've got some terms laid out, and that's the purpose of that, that sort of setup meeting, where you get a, a deal is struck. [03:56:19.512 – 03:56:27.332] Just, it's like getting married in a way, that, that you want the terms of agreement laid out in that thing because it's hard to get out of.

[03:56:27.332 – 03:56:29.012] Yeah. [03:56:29.012 – 03:56:29.592] Thanks. [03:56:29.592 – 03:56:31.812] Uh, anybody else that, uh… [03:56:31.812 – 03:56:32.512] Yeah. [03:56:32.512 – 03:56:34.651] If I may. [03:56:34.651 – 03:56:37.002] I'm an alcoholic. [03:56:37.002 – 03:56:37.932] My name's Andrew Wilson. [03:56:37.932 – 03:56:39.352] I j- have really- Hey, Andrew. [03:56:39.352 – 03:56:45.072] I really enjoyed listening to what you've been sharing over the last few minutes, but the last thing, you just rang my chimes. [03:56:45.072 – 03:56:55.162] Because my general order of procedure when somebody approaches me about sponsorship is, if I think there's potential for a relationship there, the first thing I say is, [03:56:55.162 – 03:56:58.102] "Okay, I'll work with you, and we'll work on the first three steps.

[03:56:58.102 – 03:57:02.872] You're now on a 30-day sponsor search." And I tell them you're gonna get two things out of that. [03:57:02.872 – 03:57:08.052] At the end of 30 days, and at 30 days it's, it's open-ended. [03:57:08.052 – 03:57:19.192] But at the end of 30 days, if they go to some meetings that God picks for them, and they go to some meetings that I suggest for them, and they get out there and get in front of a bunch of good men, one [03:57:19.192 – 03:57:20.412] of two things is gonna happen.

[03:57:20.412 – 03:57:27.932] They're either gonna be in the room when their chimes ring, and they say, "That's the guy Andrew was talking about. [03:57:27.932 – 03:57:30.822] He's the person who's gonna take me through the steps." Mm-hmm. [03:57:30.822 – 03:57:34.722] And I simply fall back to the position of being a member of their support group. [03:57:34.722 – 03:57:35.072] Yeah. [03:57:35.072 – 03:57:42.112] Or at the end of 30 days, if things are still going reasonably well, we end up with exactly the same result. [03:57:42.112 – 03:57:44.612] The sponsor's name is the only thing that's different.

[03:57:44.612 – 03:57:50.112] They end up with a sponsor, a round of meetings that they've been going to steadily, and a support group. [03:57:50.112 – 03:57:50.502] Mm-hmm. [03:57:50.502 – 03:57:55.932] And it doesn't matter whether I'm the sponsor or a member of the support group, but what happens is they get what they need. [03:57:55.932 – 03:57:56.492] Mm-hmm. [03:57:56.492 – 03:58:03.632] You're talking about 60 days and, and just the whole geometry of that thing, and it just, just hit me. [03:58:03.632 – 03:58:06.392] You know, it's just perfectly coherent. [03:58:06.392 – 03:58:10.152] And I've had this situation work out well- Yeah …

[03:58:10.152 – 03:58:10.932] a number of times. [03:58:10.932 – 03:58:12.172] It's just, just get them out there. [03:58:12.172 – 03:58:20.792] That's one, one of my biggest responsibilities taking somebody on is get them out there and see to it that whoever the right person is, they get connected with. [03:58:20.792 – 03:58:21.562] Mm-hmm. [03:58:21.562 – 03:58:25.472] And if I can get God into that connection, then it, the right thing's gonna happen, whatever it is. [03:58:25.472 – 03:58:26.292] Mm-hmm. [03:58:26.292 – 03:58:27.392] Yeah. [03:58:27.392 – 03:58:28.452] Thanks, Andrew. [03:58:28.452 – 03:58:28.652] Yeah. [03:58:28.652 – 03:58:34.392] Yeah, that, that little bit of stuff really pays off, you know, of getting a good, solid relationship established.

[03:58:34.392 – 03:58:35.412] And one of the… [03:58:35.412 – 03:58:41.352] In our group, we have a, we have a, a, a pretty strong beginners program, a beginners group. [03:58:41.352 – 03:58:42.672] It is… [03:58:42.672 – 03:58:44.192] Well, we, we call it a newcomers group. [03:58:44.192 – 03:58:47.492] And it's not, it's not taking people through the steps. [03:58:47.492 – 03:58:48.932] It's basically… [03:58:48.932 – 03:58:53.122] What, what we have is, uh, we have a huge turnout of newcomers. [03:58:53.122 – 03:58:55.992] And, uh, we have a committee. [03:58:55.992 – 03:58:58.612] One of our service committees is the newcomers group. [03:58:58.612 – 03:59:08.722] We got about 12, 14 people on the committee, and they plan the agenda for a quarter at a time, meaning what the topic is, and they also

[03:59:08.722 – 03:59:09.832] rotate the leaders. [03:59:09.832 – 03:59:12.652] You know, they'll usually have two leaders. [03:59:12.652 – 03:59:18.801] If there's a huge crowd, uh, we'll either break up into another group or, uh, or have thr- three leaders. [03:59:18.801 – 03:59:20.392] But, uh, we do that. [03:59:20.392 – 03:59:21.872] And we, uh… [03:59:21.872 – 03:59:30.652] One important thing I think we do is that we strongly encourage the newcomer program for anybody under six months. [03:59:30.652 – 03:59:36.992] We s- even strongly, more strongly encourage if you got over six months, don't go. [03:59:36.992 – 03:59:38.572] Don't go. [03:59:38.572 – 03:59:43.612] Because I've seen so many newcomer groups screwed up by old-timers hiding in them.

[03:59:43.612 – 03:59:48.392] You know, or else in there just sort of romancing the idea of d- doing something with newcomers. [03:59:48.392 – 03:59:55.452] And, uh, and what it does, it just pulls it off, the focus on newcomers, and I've seen a lot of them go down the tube like that. [03:59:55.452 – 03:59:58.192] And so in ours, and, and folks follow it pretty well. [03:59:58.192 – 04:00:00.652] We, we, we're not standing there with blackjack or something. [04:00:00.652 – 04:00:07.032] But if you tell folk, you know, that, that we wanna focus this on newcomers, and, and that's, that ties in so well.

[04:00:07.032 – 04:00:09.192] You know, and that's where we set up the temporary sponsorship. [04:00:09.192 – 04:00:18.992] That, that ties in really well and, uh, and it gives us a chance both programmatically and individually to help the person hone in on, on what to do. [04:00:18.992 – 04:00:22.512] The one thing we haven't worked out is how to make it more effective. [04:00:22.512 – 04:00:28.732] But I tell you, capturing and, and retaining a newcomer is a special science. [04:00:28.732 – 04:00:29.632] I tell you what. [04:00:29.632 – 04:00:37.052] And, and, you know, even, even w- w- the way, as much as we put into it, the, the return is just, uh, uh, just…

[04:00:37.052 – 04:00:39.812] Well, it's just unfortunate. [04:00:39.812 – 04:00:43.132] And, but that's something we wanna improve the best we possibly can. [04:00:43.132 – 04:00:45.552] But it's, it's a bit of a, bit of a challenge. [04:00:45.552 – 04:00:45.772] Yeah. [04:00:45.772 – 04:00:48.392] Is that the speaker meeting? [04:00:48.392 – 04:00:48.592] No. [04:00:48.592 – 04:00:51.812] You know, it's the three, three people that have a topic. [04:00:51.812 – 04:00:54.352] But his, his question was, is it a speaker meeting? [04:00:54.352 – 04:00:59.432] It's no- unless one of the panel folks get out of line, it's not a speaker meeting. [04:00:59.432 – 04:01:00.152] Sounds like… [04:01:00.152 – 04:01:01.482] Sounds… [04:01:01.482 – 04:01:04.852] But it's, it's basically it'll have a sort of a…

[04:01:04.852 – 04:01:07.692] We get that Living Sober that was holding up. [04:01:07.692 – 04:01:09.262] We, we get a lot of topics out of that. [04:01:09.262 – 04:01:10.612] They're excellent material. [04:01:10.612 – 04:01:13.640] Yeah, there we go You, you hit the jackpot, didn't you? [04:01:13.640 – 04:01:15.469] Yeah. [04:01:15.469 – 04:01:17.020] That has got a lot of stuff in it. [04:01:17.020 – 04:01:18.760] But we'll get newcomer-type stuff. [04:01:18.760 – 04:01:19.960] You know, what's one day at a time? [04:01:19.960 – 04:01:20.940] You know, and this kind of stuff. [04:01:20.940 – 04:01:22.340] Just simple stuff. [04:01:22.340 – 04:01:23.319] Got three people. [04:01:23.319 – 04:01:24.440] We don't want… [04:01:24.440 – 04:01:27.180] It's not a speaker meeting, and it's not a discussion meeting either.

[04:01:27.180 – 04:01:37.180] You know, what it is is sort of a hybrid, uh, that, that we wanna go about two-thirds, three-fourths of the time with the panel, the two or three people, going over the [04:01:37.180 – 04:01:39.620] material, and then open it up for questions. [04:01:39.620 – 04:01:46.920] Otherwise, if you just start out with that, oh, my God, you're gonna get everything from what's the bail bond number to, uh, the name. [04:01:46.920 – 04:01:48.380] I mean, it, it's pointless. [04:01:48.380 – 04:01:49.300] Yeah. [04:01:49.300 – 04:01:50.420] And so that's, that's what we do. [04:01:50.420 – 04:01:53.800] It's structured, and the committee, uh, puts that together pretty thoughtfully.

[04:01:53.800 – 04:01:55.260] They do a good job. [04:01:55.260 – 04:01:58.940] I tell you one thing, you know, uh, I think it's important, namesake. [04:01:58.940 – 04:02:01.460] It's important to practice what you preach. [04:02:01.460 – 04:02:08.780] 12 years, I've never been to that meeting, because I really do believe old-timers will pull it off track. [04:02:08.780 – 04:02:14.200] And, and they see me as a, a, as a great white father or somebody coming in there. [04:02:14.200 – 04:02:14.930] And they… [04:02:14.930 – 04:02:15.100] And it… [04:02:15.100 – 04:02:21.440] Whether they want to or not, they'll shift over, and then they'll start deferring to me about something, and I don't wanna do that.

[04:02:21.440 – 04:02:24.000] And so I, I, I honor it. [04:02:24.000 – 04:02:29.260] Tell them, "Anytime you want me to come here, do anything, just tell me." 12 years, they've never seen any need for me. [04:02:29.260 – 04:02:33.359] And so I said, "Fine, I'll go do something else." Yeah. [04:02:33.359 – 04:02:35.640] But that, that's, that's, that's the way we do that thing. [04:02:35.640 – 04:02:41.040] And it's, uh, it, it sort of is a s- it's a sort of a springboard for sponsorship. [04:02:41.040 – 04:02:43.020] You know, membership and sponsorship. [04:02:43.020 – 04:02:44.160] And so… [04:02:44.160 – 04:02:45.620] But that's the way we go about it.

[04:02:45.620 – 04:02:46.190] Yeah. [04:02:46.190 – 04:02:48.040] And, and we're, I mean, we're not the Marine Corps. [04:02:48.040 – 04:02:50.220] I mean, uh, ours is a very relaxed meeting. [04:02:50.220 – 04:02:57.540] It's nothing you'd come in there and feel like, "My God, this is rigid." Uh, but we're purposeful, and we, uh, and we get on with business. [04:02:57.540 – 04:03:00.300] Anybody else? [04:03:00.300 – 04:03:03.040] Yeah. [04:03:03.040 – 04:03:03.640] Yeah. [04:03:03.640 – 04:03:05.380] Hi, I'm Heather. [04:03:05.380 – 04:03:06.260] I'm an alcoholic. [04:03:06.260 – 04:03:07.000] Hi, Heather. [04:03:07.000 – 04:03:14.860] Um, my question is, do you hold the same philosophy for the young people meetings as you do for the newcomer meetings?

[04:03:14.860 – 04:03:16.420] Mm-hmm. [04:03:16.420 – 04:03:18.100] For, sort of, f- f- for young people? [04:03:18.100 – 04:03:18.800] Yeah. [04:03:18.800 – 04:03:20.219] Do you, um- Yeah … [04:03:20.219 – 04:03:30.300] I mean, the old-timers, you know, um, would you ask them, um, to kind of avoid the new, I mean, the young people meetings as m- as you would the, um, [04:03:30.300 – 04:03:31.980] new beginner meetings? [04:03:31.980 – 04:03:33.840] They're the same thing. [04:03:33.840 – 04:03:34.680] The, the, the… [04:03:34.680 – 04:03:35.260] Yeah, we do. [04:03:35.260 – 04:03:36.509] I use the term beginner- Oh … [04:03:36.509 – 04:03:37.780] but it's a newcomer meeting. [04:03:37.780 – 04:03:39.460] Yeah, and the… [04:03:39.460 – 04:03:43.440] We only have the one, uh, where we put, uh, g- our under-six-month people.

[04:03:43.440 – 04:03:46.740] We encourage them to go in there, and most of them do. [04:03:46.740 – 04:03:48.160] It's a rare one that doesn't. [04:03:48.160 – 04:03:50.920] And so they'll go in, and we want them to stay in there. [04:03:50.920 – 04:03:54.380] We don't want them in there, the very max would be a year. [04:03:54.380 – 04:03:56.699] But, you know, six months is about the term. [04:03:56.699 – 04:03:59.380] And those are not rigid things, but it… [04:03:59.380 – 04:04:02.740] You know, if you kinda got it in your mind, you'll move people in that direction. [04:04:02.740 – 04:04:04.160] And, uh, yeah.

[04:04:04.160 – 04:04:08.680] But we don't want old-timers in there unless they're, uh, s- working on… [04:04:08.680 – 04:04:11.800] I've told, just like I told them, "If you need me to do anything, ask me. [04:04:11.800 – 04:04:17.500] I'll be there." But otherwise, I'm gonna respect what we said, is we're gonna let this be for newcomers. [04:04:17.500 – 04:04:23.400] And, uh, 'cause I've seen too many of them go down the tube, uh, with, with old-timers flood them. [04:04:23.400 – 04:04:31.540] And, and I've done it. [04:04:31.540 – 04:04:32.360] There was another thing with it. [04:04:32.360 – 04:04:34.349] But anyway, I'll, I'll, I'll come back to it then.

[04:04:34.349 – 04:04:37.450] Anybody else? [04:04:37.450 – 04:04:38.920] Feel free. [04:04:38.920 – 04:04:39.860] Anybody here but us. [04:04:39.860 – 04:04:40.370] You know. [04:04:40.370 – 04:04:42.620] Yeah. [04:04:42.620 – 04:04:45.370] All right. [04:04:45.370 – 04:04:55.420] Well, well, that, that, uh, that always tells me when, uh, when, uh, that is, that, that either means that you don't have anything to say or [04:04:55.420 – 04:05:00.060] that I just did such a wonderful job that there's just nothing left for… [04:05:00.060 – 04:05:06.920] And you know, of course, I lob for the latter, you know? [04:05:06.920 – 04:05:11.740] Uh, but it, it's, it's, it's a, it's a vital thing. [04:05:11.740 – 04:05:19.920] And that, and that, you know, mine is a little more, little more, uh, in depth than u- is, is typical in AA.

[04:05:19.920 – 04:05:25.100] But I think it is an awfully vital link, and, uh, if it's worth doing, worth doing right. [04:05:25.100 – 04:05:26.500] You know, just basically the way I look at it. [04:05:26.500 – 04:05:27.960] And a- again, I'm not selling that. [04:05:27.960 – 04:05:30.360] That's just, that's just the way I, way I do it. [04:05:30.360 – 04:05:33.860] Um, we've got… [04:05:33.860 – 04:05:35.800] It's 2:00. [04:05:35.800 – 04:05:39.860] I keep turning it. [04:05:39.860 – 04:05:40.820] Is that thing off? [04:05:40.820 – 04:05:42.210] Yeah, it's off. [04:05:42.210 – 04:05:42.510] It is? [04:05:42.510 – 04:05:42.860] Okay. [04:05:42.860 – 04:05:44.280] I don't know what I'm doing to that thing. [04:05:44.280 – 04:05:44.520] It's… [04:05:44.520 – 04:05:45.250] Yeah. [04:05:45.250 – 04:05:47.280] I told Jim my T-shirt's getting on it.

[04:05:47.280 – 04:05:48.640] I know it's not the lap- [04:05:49.334 – 04:05:51.514] It's the T-shirt that's blocking it, I think. [04:05:51.514 – 04:05:54.174] Yeah. [04:05:54.174 – 04:06:04.194] Um, any- anything else generally before we move, we, we, we move in and, and, and, and, uh, and move [04:06:04.194 – 04:06:10.104] in, start moving into eight and nine, and, uh, d- we got one, we got one session in the morning, I think. [04:06:10.104 – 04:06:10.794] Is that right, Warren? [04:06:10.794 – 04:06:11.554] Well, okay. [04:06:11.554 – 04:06:13.834] So we, we go ahead and do eight and nine. [04:06:13.834 – 04:06:14.854] Yeah. [04:06:14.854 – 04:06:15.594] Uh… [04:06:15.594 – 04:06:18.794] So, yeah, I guess that's it.

[04:06:18.794 – 04:06:21.134] No, do them together. [04:06:21.134 – 04:06:21.774] Do them together. [04:06:21.774 – 04:06:22.534] Yeah. [04:06:22.534 – 04:06:24.594] Yeah, they're a pair. [04:06:24.594 – 04:06:29.574] You know, they're a pair of steps, and I, I like to look at them as decision and action. [04:06:29.574 – 04:06:34.514] You know, I think they wrote them short because they didn't intend it to be a landing place. [04:06:34.514 – 04:06:37.414] They saw it as a springboard, just moving on in. [04:06:37.414 – 04:06:39.314] And so, you know, I just… [04:06:39.314 – 04:06:41.974] I always just sort of do them together as a package deal. [04:06:41.974 – 04:06:44.873] And, uh, any, any of…

[04:06:44.873 – 04:06:47.373] Are there comments you might wanna make about seven or anything? [04:06:47.373 – 04:06:47.714] Yeah. [04:06:47.714 – 04:06:52.914] I don't remember hearing anything about humility or, you know, asking. [04:06:52.914 – 04:06:54.104] I don't remember… [04:06:54.104 – 04:06:54.714] Yeah. [04:06:54.714 – 04:06:59.894] No, you didn't hear anything about self-support, about, uh, things and purposes? [04:06:59.894 – 04:07:03.514] Th- there, there was a, there was a lot they didn't get at, but there was… [04:07:03.514 – 04:07:05.114] Yeah, go ahead. [04:07:05.114 – 04:07:07.634] It was- No, basically that was it. [04:07:07.634 – 04:07:09.384] I, I don't really- Yeah, okay … [04:07:09.384 – 04:07:10.594] uh, I, I heard a lot of six.

[04:07:10.594 – 04:07:11.354] Mm-hmm. [04:07:11.354 – 04:07:12.814] Mm-hmm. [04:07:12.814 – 04:07:14.694] Uh- Yeah, it's… [04:07:14.694 – 04:07:18.194] I really believe these are intended to be quick action steps. [04:07:18.194 – 04:07:21.974] There, there, there's not, uh, uh, there's not a lot to do. [04:07:21.974 – 04:07:23.814] It's one is a decision, and one's a prayer. [04:07:23.814 – 04:07:29.564] And if you linger on it and try to make that some other extravagant thing, it's basically action stuff. [04:07:29.564 – 04:07:32.574] You know, you've looked at the causes and conditions. [04:07:32.574 – 04:07:38.974] Then the question is, not going into a think tank, is, is do you wanna be rid of those defects?

[04:07:38.974 – 04:07:47.014] And, and to me, defects and shortcomings are essentially two sides of the same thing. [04:07:47.014 – 04:07:49.094] I don't see them as different. [04:07:49.094 – 04:07:51.534] And, uh, there's a… [04:07:51.534 – 04:07:55.734] Boy, there's a thing that I've, that I've, I read somewhere. [04:07:55.734 – 04:07:59.234] It's, well, in, in the Bible, you know. [04:07:59.234 – 04:08:01.134] Now, believe it or not, I read something in the Bible. [04:08:01.134 – 04:08:06.654] And it was talking about sins of omission and sins of commission. [04:08:06.654 – 04:08:16.814] And I think that's exactly what the founders were talking about in the, in the book, that there are some things, like the thing I mentioned about my mother, you know, that what I did was rob her of a son.

[04:08:16.814 – 04:08:20.694] And then when I started to think about it, just tried to negate that like it meant nothing. [04:08:20.694 – 04:08:25.694] That's a sin of omission, of failing to be a responsible son. [04:08:25.694 – 04:08:27.314] You know, that's an omission. [04:08:27.314 – 04:08:37.494] And then commission is, you know, things like, you know, I took her car one night with a promise that I'd be right back, and her with bad legs and a third shift job in a mill, three days [04:08:37.494 – 04:08:39.534] later she's still walking back and forth to work.

[04:08:39.534 – 04:08:41.434] That's commission. [04:08:41.434 – 04:08:42.754] You know? [04:08:42.754 – 04:08:47.294] And so, you know, that, that's why I see it as just sort of getting a handle on those things. [04:08:47.294 – 04:08:56.434] And then, you know, the only thing I mentioned about seven is that, that the seven is to move forward with the actions and not wait. [04:08:56.434 – 04:08:59.534] I've never had God pluck out a, a defect. [04:08:59.534 – 04:09:00.694] Never have. [04:09:00.694 – 04:09:07.594] And, uh, what happens is that the, the answer to the prayer is in the next steps. [04:09:07.594 – 04:09:09.834] That that is the plan.

[04:09:09.834 – 04:09:12.034] That's, that's, that's the God-given plan. [04:09:12.034 – 04:09:19.714] And so I don't, you know, un- you know, unless we're just in a discussion about that, and it'll usually wind up defining humility and all this kind of thing. [04:09:19.714 – 04:09:25.374] But i- in, for, for this purpose, you know, I like to look at it as, as let's hit it, let's hit it and go. [04:09:25.374 – 04:09:28.914] And you may have to, uh, pray over it or you'll think about it. [04:09:28.914 – 04:09:31.594] I did because of the fear of change.

[04:09:31.594 – 04:09:35.814] Uh, but then when I was finally ready, it wasn't that big a deal, you know. [04:09:35.814 – 04:09:37.924] I just sort of make that move and then get on into it. [04:09:37.924 – 04:09:41.894] But what we're moving into is restoration. [04:09:41.894 – 04:09:44.914] What we're moving into is freedom. [04:09:44.914 – 04:09:50.094] And that, uh, that, I, I don't think I used that example, but you know, like when… [04:09:50.094 – 04:09:51.034] Yeah, I did. [04:09:51.034 – 04:09:57.354] You know, that when I came into A, my life was so lopsided that it was defects pure and simple.

[04:09:57.354 – 04:09:58.274] That's all it was. [04:09:58.274 – 04:10:08.573] And then over time, as I started to learn positive things and started to develop skills and abilities and some humility and some courage [04:10:08.573 – 04:10:12.914] and some, you know, honesty, that, that, that started to balance. [04:10:12.914 – 04:10:13.314] You know? [04:10:13.314 – 04:10:17.254] And, uh, and I tell you, I've gotten better than I ever meant to. [04:10:17.254 – 04:10:19.554] I, I did not mean to get as good as I am. [04:10:19.554 – 04:10:22.554] But, you know, it ju- I overshot the target, man. [04:10:22.554 – 04:10:25.274] I, I don't do anything.

[04:10:25.274 – 04:10:26.814] You know, I was a dull dude. [04:10:26.814 – 04:10:33.114] Uh, but, uh, anyway, that's what, that's why I don't, I don't visit long on that, that I, I like the action part. [04:10:33.114 – 04:10:37.534] You know, let's move on with it and not labor over it, because the writers didn't labor over it. [04:10:37.534 – 04:10:38.134] Why should I? [04:10:38.134 – 04:10:39.394] You know, let's move on. [04:10:39.394 – 04:10:44.274] And, uh, I, I remembered, you know, just what I just stumbled through that one little part. [04:10:44.274 – 04:10:47.054] But yeah, thanks for bringing that up and, and for being attentive.

[04:10:47.054 – 04:10:49.014] That's, it's a valuable gift. [04:10:49.014 – 04:10:54.594] Learned a long time ago, probably the greatest gift I can give somebody is my undivided attention. [04:10:54.594 – 04:10:57.534] That is a huge gift. [04:10:57.534 – 04:11:02.174] And, uh, tell you it's a whole different deal, but I've tried it. [04:11:02.174 – 04:11:05.824] Uh, you can influence, like if a speaker… [04:11:05.824 – 04:11:10.014] If I've got a speaker in, in my group that I want to talk about a certain thing, I don't tell him. [04:11:10.014 – 04:11:16.674] But I guarantee you, I can listen in such a way that I'll maneuver him to where I want him to go.

[04:11:16.674 – 04:11:20.254] But if I respond to the right thing, he'll do some more of it. [04:11:20.254 – 04:11:23.204] If, whatev- as long as it's in my direction, you know? [04:11:23.204 – 04:11:25.574] But I mean, you know, listening's a powerful thing is the point. [04:11:25.574 – 04:11:26.434] Yeah. [04:11:26.434 – 04:11:27.814] Yeah. [04:11:27.814 – 04:11:32.754] Had a guy come up to me one night at a group, an old friend. [04:11:32.754 – 04:11:38.834] He was a guy that was brilliantly educated man and, uh, a good buddy. [04:11:38.834 – 04:11:44.314] He came up to me to, to, and he said, "Now, Tom, I always enjoy hearing you speak.

[04:11:44.314 – 04:11:48.544] But tonight I kinda zoned off a little bit, you know? [04:11:48.544 – 04:11:51.854] Wonder what's going on." I said, "Well," his name was Norwood. [04:11:51.854 – 04:12:01.322] I said, "Well, Norwood, there are two things that are essential for a good talk." One's a good speaker, and the other's a good listener. [04:12:01.322 – 04:12:04.682] One of us didn't do the job, you know? [04:12:04.682 – 04:12:09.762] But it's true. [04:12:09.762 – 04:12:10.602] It is true. [04:12:10.602 – 04:12:16.722] Uh, well, let's, let's talk a little, a little eight and nine. [04:12:16.722 – 04:12:19.452] Anybody, anybody anything else? [04:12:19.452 – 04:12:19.882] Yeah. [04:12:19.882 – 04:12:22.622] The, uh…

[04:12:22.622 – 04:12:32.882] I really believe that, you know, what we're, what, what I've been trying to lead us into is like this, this thing Woody was kind enough to run, is that the difference between [04:12:32.882 – 04:12:42.902] this guy and the guy who learns to breathe free and deep and to really be a, a, a, a, a functioning, thriving human being, I think is in [04:12:42.902 – 04:12:44.162] the eight and nine process. [04:12:44.162 – 04:12:45.882] You know, that, that's where the freedom comes. [04:12:45.882 – 04:12:53.122] And that guy, you remember the guy I was talking about that, uh, I sent him on that trip out west to do amends with his son?

[04:12:53.122 – 04:12:58.222] That guy had been dragging that anchor for years. [04:12:58.222 – 04:12:59.422] For years. [04:12:59.422 – 04:13:03.842] And he was a miserable failure as a human being. [04:13:03.842 – 04:13:07.202] He was successful as a businessman, but he had no life. [04:13:07.202 – 04:13:10.502] I mean, this is a guy that truly was a dead man walking. [04:13:10.502 – 04:13:12.262] And it was obvious. [04:13:12.262 – 04:13:14.442] I mean, you didn't have to be Bill Wilson to see that. [04:13:14.442 – 04:13:19.892] I mean, you, th- you, this, this guy was clearly somebody that was, was, was… [04:13:19.892 – 04:13:20.942] past was eating him up.

[04:13:20.942 – 04:13:27.842] And, uh, so that, that's what he had to do to, to get through one big hurdle of freedom. [04:13:27.842 – 04:13:37.702] And to me, that's what, you know, the defects are about, that I don't th- personally, I don't think I will ever be a free man. [04:13:37.702 – 04:13:40.322] I don't care how long I stay sober. [04:13:40.322 – 04:13:48.582] I will never be a free man until I go back and make right those wrongs wherever that can be done. [04:13:48.582 – 04:13:53.822] And, uh, and I, I really believe that because they don't go away.

[04:13:53.822 – 04:13:55.362] They don't die of old age. [04:13:55.362 – 04:13:56.422] They don't wither up. [04:13:56.422 – 04:13:57.562] They don't lessen. [04:13:57.562 – 04:13:58.682] They worsen. [04:13:58.682 – 04:14:08.502] And, and, uh, and, and so the difference, you know, i- it's hard to have a thriving recovery if you're dragging a barge behind you, you know. [04:14:08.502 – 04:14:12.782] And that's what that is, a barge load of this, this stuff, and I carry it with me. [04:14:12.782 – 04:14:16.602] And so I, I think those steps are vitally, vitally important. [04:14:16.602 – 04:14:23.782] And, uh, and, and they're not easy, but they're fairly simple, you know, that, um…

[04:14:23.782 – 04:14:29.461] When I, when I first started out on amends, my God, I thought I, I owed amends to everybody I'd ever met. [04:14:29.461 – 04:14:39.902] And, uh, it probably could qualify at a minor level because I never met anybody that I don't think I, I, I didn't necessarily hurt everybody, but I either embarrassed [04:14:39.902 – 04:14:40.702] them or they … [04:14:40.702 – 04:14:41.371] Just something. [04:14:41.371 – 04:14:42.622] It just… [04:14:42.622 – 04:14:47.461] Nobody I ever saw that I could claim and says I really helped that person. [04:14:47.461 – 04:14:48.542] Not one. [04:14:48.542 – 04:14:50.382] And, and so I had to…

[04:14:50.382 – 04:14:55.802] When I started to do, uh, do my amends, I had some heavy ones. [04:14:55.802 – 04:14:58.502] I had some really heavy, heavy amends to make. [04:14:58.502 – 04:15:04.942] And, uh, some of them, you know, like, I'd caused the deaths of two people, and that's, that's heavy. [04:15:04.942 – 04:15:05.722] That is heavy. [04:15:05.722 – 04:15:16.142] And, and that was on my mind 24 hours a day, every day of my life with enormous gu- as you can imagine, enormous guilt and shame [04:15:16.142 – 04:15:18.102] and remorse and, um… [04:15:18.102 – 04:15:20.312] It's something you can't live with, you know.

[04:15:20.312 – 04:15:24.962] And, and, and so I was hounded about that before I even came to AA. [04:15:24.962 – 04:15:35.022] You know, when, when, when I was in jail waiting for trial, uh, I had, I had some people that I knew to contact the families of the people that were killed and ask them if they would [04:15:35.022 – 04:15:36.282] be willing to hear from me. [04:15:36.282 – 04:15:38.582] Both families said, "No. [04:15:38.582 – 04:15:41.722] No, uh, don't." And I understood that. [04:15:41.722 – 04:15:46.942] And, and so I honored that, you know, uh, as much as I could.

[04:15:46.942 – 04:15:48.402] And, but I honored it. [04:15:48.402 – 04:15:56.582] And, and then when I got in the program and started getting through inventory, started moving into amends, that was obviously major league importance. [04:15:56.582 – 04:16:06.722] And, uh, s- strange thing that, um, that, that it's good to have a little time b- before you start getting into deep water [04:16:06.722 – 04:16:07.222] like that. [04:16:07.222 – 04:16:16.901] Um, I had, uh, to where I, I wasn't warming up on it, but I, I had a few amends that I could make readily.

[04:16:16.901 – 04:16:20.662] You know, even though I was confined, there's still things I could do. [04:16:20.662 – 04:16:24.502] You know, most amends I found is not about paying something back. [04:16:24.502 – 04:16:26.902] It's about violating trust. [04:16:26.902 – 04:16:30.232] I think it's the greatest injury I found in that was violating trust. [04:16:30.342 – 04:16:34.082] just and, and, uh, y- using up people like that. [04:16:34.082 – 04:16:39.442] But that one was obviously hounding me pretty bad and, and so I had to do something. [04:16:39.442 – 04:16:49.542] I listened hungrily to everybody who even sounded like they were talking about amends, 'cause I was looking for clues about, you know, what, how can you deal with

[04:16:49.542 – 04:16:49.822] this? [04:16:49.822 – 04:16:54.662] And, uh, and of course the book is, is, is an excellent guide. [04:16:54.662 – 04:16:58.642] What's laid out in eight and nine I think is just excellent material. [04:16:58.642 – 04:17:01.762] And, uh, and so I, I did that. [04:17:01.762 – 04:17:09.092] You know, when I had started to write, uh, write my list, you know, to make a list of all pe- person who I harm, become willing to make amends to them all. [04:17:09.092 – 04:17:12.822] When I did that, uh, m- man, I ran out of paper.

[04:17:12.822 – 04:17:19.242] You know, I mean a three-page inventory, but that was a long, long list of people that everybody I ever knew I thought I owed amends to. [04:17:19.242 – 04:17:27.502] And then when I started to get realistic, that, you know, most of this, you know, a bar room brawl does not require amends. [04:17:27.502 – 04:17:28.422] I mean, my God. [04:17:28.422 – 04:17:31.422] Yeah, I'd be the rest of my life hunting down those flunkies. [04:17:31.422 – 04:17:35.462] And, and, uh- So I mean that is not in the ballpark, you know.

[04:17:35.462 – 04:17:45.572] And so I started getting rid of some of that stuff, you know, that, you know, that, th- and getting down to the real thing where, where I'd had a human interaction with somebody [04:17:45.572 – 04:17:47.182] at, at a hurtful level. [04:17:47.182 – 04:17:50.562] And, and, and those are the things that, that eat my lunch. [04:17:50.562 – 04:17:53.822] And it's not hard to find amends, just find out what's eating your lunch. [04:17:53.822 – 04:17:54.582] There it is. [04:17:54.582 – 04:17:56.382] And so I started seeing those. [04:17:56.382 – 04:18:04.202] And so when I started to, uh, to make amends, I, I did a few that wa- I was able to do fairly readily.

[04:18:04.202 – 04:18:09.542] And then, uh, and, and then I had to deal with that, with the, the people who were killed in that accident. [04:18:09.542 – 04:18:12.802] And I, I knew who they were. [04:18:12.802 – 04:18:15.502] I mean, I knew th- the, what I needed to know. [04:18:15.502 – 04:18:17.502] How do you do that? [04:18:17.502 – 04:18:22.262] And so I listened to people tr- describe things they'd done, and I did everything I heard. [04:18:22.262 – 04:18:24.002] I mean, I tried everything I heard. [04:18:24.002 – 04:18:25.682] You know, write them a letter. [04:18:25.682 – 04:18:30.122] Pray t- pray with their image in f- right in front of you.

[04:18:30.122 – 04:18:34.502] And, uh, you know, just on and on, you know, with things like that. [04:18:34.502 – 04:18:40.202] And, and, and so there was a, there were a number of things I was able to do sitting where I was. [04:18:40.202 – 04:18:43.402] Some could not be. [04:18:43.402 – 04:18:47.862] You know, thank God there's a thing called indirect amends. [04:18:47.862 – 04:18:49.802] Indirect, if you can't make direct. [04:18:49.802 – 04:18:51.522] And this was such a case. [04:18:51.522 – 04:19:01.542] And, uh, and I'll tell you this, uh, you know, again, I'm not a spooky guy, but, uh, that accident happened on the 3rd of May

[04:19:01.542 – 04:19:02.802] in 1956. [04:19:02.802 – 04:19:12.522] I can't tell you how many things I have done that directly related to that on the 3rd of May, and I've never planned a single one. [04:19:12.522 – 04:19:14.382] Never planned a single one. [04:19:14.382 – 04:19:24.442] I spoke to 5,000 young people on the 3rd of May in two different high schools about drunk driving and the, and the dangers of that. [04:19:24.442 – 04:19:25.962] You know, 3rd of May. [04:19:25.962 – 04:19:26.922] I didn't plan that. [04:19:26.922 – 04:19:33.642] I did a movie, uh, on a, on a public, uh, m- public television, whatever you call it.

[04:19:33.642 – 04:19:41.962] But I did a movie with, I thought, complete anonymity, uh, about drunk driving on the 3rd of May. [04:19:41.962 – 04:19:47.792] I, I say I, I thought it was complete anonymity, that… [04:19:47.792 – 04:19:52.072] You know that thing you see sometimes, I call it the Rubik's Cube thing, when they, they block it out. [04:19:52.072 – 04:19:54.742] It looks like a Rubik's Cube with these moving colors. [04:19:54.742 – 04:19:59.842] They used that and, and you would've thought there was no visible evidence who I am. [04:19:59.842 – 04:20:04.642] I got a call from a woman in, in, in South, uh, North Dakota.

[04:20:04.642 – 04:20:11.762] And, uh, and I knew her, and she said, "Tom, have you made a movie?" I said, "No, I haven't made a movie. [04:20:11.762 – 04:20:20.422] What are you talking about, girl?" And, and she said, "Well, I thought I saw you on a movie." And, and, and, and she told me what it was. [04:20:20.422 – 04:20:22.122] And it dawned on me what she's talking about. [04:20:22.122 – 04:20:26.982] It was on public radio, NPR, or n- no, pub- public television. [04:20:26.982 – 04:20:28.342] Anyway, it was on that. [04:20:28.342 – 04:20:29.302] And she'd seen it.

[04:20:29.302 – 04:20:36.702] And, and I, I said, "You know, I, I did," and I told her what I'd done and she s- I, I said, "But that was done with complete anonymity. [04:20:36.702 – 04:20:45.942] How would you know?" She said, "I recognized your nose." I said, "Come on, girl, you gotta be kidding." I go… [04:20:45.942 – 04:20:48.822] It's bad, but it's not that bad. [04:20:48.822 – 04:20:50.542] And so, but isn't that something? [04:20:50.542 – 04:20:53.402] You know, you, you, there is no hiding place, you know? [04:20:53.402 – 04:20:56.742] So, but she's the only one I think that recognized it.

[04:20:56.742 – 04:20:59.102] Uh, but there's just so many ways, eh? [04:20:59.102 – 04:21:06.642] That, that, there, there's things that, that when you're, when you genuinely want to do what's right, the way will open up. [04:21:06.642 – 04:21:07.782] It'll open up. [04:21:07.782 – 04:21:09.222] And so I've been able to… [04:21:09.222 – 04:21:11.602] You know, and I, I'll let you in on a little secret. [04:21:11.602 – 04:21:13.142] That's partly what I'm doing today. [04:21:13.142 – 04:21:14.722] Uh, certainly. [04:21:14.722 – 04:21:20.062] I can't, obviously can't do anything to undo what was done. [04:21:20.062 – 04:21:21.662] That's done. [04:21:21.662 – 04:21:28.002] But what I might be able to do is to make a contribution toward preventing that with somebody else.

[04:21:28.002 – 04:21:30.002] May not, but I can try. [04:21:30.002 – 04:21:34.562] And so there are a lot of ways, a lot of ways to, to do indirect amends. [04:21:34.562 – 04:21:42.682] And, uh, I tell you the two, the two toughest areas, I wanna tell you about the parents of that, of that family. [04:21:42.682 – 04:21:47.522] The, uh, now they've, they've said, "We don't wanna hear from you. [04:21:47.522 – 04:21:53.082] And, and you can't…" It's like the book says, you can't find your relief at somebody else's expense. [04:21:53.082 – 04:21:55.962] And, uh, so yeah, I took that to heart.

[04:21:55.962 – 04:22:06.322] And, and so, but when, when I got out of the institution and went back to North Carolina, some [04:22:06.322 – 04:22:09.942] of the toughest amends that I had to make were to my family. [04:22:09.942 – 04:22:13.982] Not because they were difficult to make, but it was difficult to get them to accept them. [04:22:13.982 – 04:22:19.562] Because everybody wanted to, to just, just, just, just, "Don't worry about it. [04:22:19.562 – 04:22:21.702] Now you, uh, you keep doing what you're doing. [04:22:21.702 – 04:22:28.082] You're a wonderful person." And, and my mo- and my mother, my mother never even believed I was an alcoholic.

[04:22:28.082 – 04:22:30.182] You know, I was her little boy. [04:22:30.182 – 04:22:31.282] I'm not an alcoholic. [04:22:31.282 – 04:22:31.742] And she wa… [04:22:31.742 – 04:22:36.132] But when I tried to m- I almost had to hold her to make amends. [04:22:36.132 – 04:22:39.880] And, uh, every time I'd say something, she'd counter it, you know. [04:22:39.880 – 04:22:43.610] And I started off on something and she said, "Well, you weren't all that bad. [04:22:43.610 – 04:22:47.090] You sent me all that money." I said, "What money?" And she… [04:22:47.090 – 04:22:55.470] Apparently I'd been drunk at the pay line and they'd taken out an allotment from my military stuff, and they mailed her a check, you know.

[04:22:55.470 – 04:22:56.570] I didn't even know it. [04:22:56.570 – 04:23:01.690] So, so she's telling me about, you know, what a benefactor I was. [04:23:01.690 – 04:23:03.970] I said, "You gotta be kidding me, Mom. [04:23:03.970 – 04:23:04.290] That's… [04:23:04.290 – 04:23:06.570] Sure enough." But they were, they were tough to do, eh? [04:23:06.570 – 04:23:08.310] They're really tough to pull off. [04:23:08.310 – 04:23:18.390] And, uh, now when I started doing amends, and started working out, uh, do- how to do it, I don't normally mess with the steps, but [04:23:18.390 – 04:23:25.129] I added one word to the eighth step, where it says that we made a list of people we'd harmed and became willing.

[04:23:25.129 – 04:23:31.850] I added the word forgiveness, that, uh, uh, opportunity, not forgiveness, opportunity. [04:23:31.850 – 04:23:40.590] And so what I prayed for was willingness and opportunity, and never overtly did anything to make anything happen. [04:23:40.590 – 04:23:41.730] That's the God's truth. [04:23:41.730 – 04:23:44.710] I mean nothing, except be ready. [04:23:44.710 – 04:23:54.710] And one day I got a call from an, an attorney up in the state of Michigan, in the city where that occurred, and he identified himself and he said, [04:23:54.710 – 04:23:59.350] "I'm, I'm representing the families of the victims in the, in the, in the accident you were in.

[04:23:59.350 – 04:24:08.730] And, uh, we're having a suit." And what they had entered a suit, you can imagine h- how great and wonderful it sounded to me for a few seconds. [04:24:08.730 – 04:24:18.680] He said, you know, "The, the suit's based on the fact that what happened wasn't your fault." That, that r- what they had done was, was, was jump back to avoid another vehicle, jumped into yours. [04:24:18.680 – 04:24:20.890] Well, I mean, you know what that'd be. [04:24:20.890 – 04:24:23.270] It's like a life raft to a, to a dying person.

[04:24:23.270 – 04:24:29.590] And, and, and I just, I grabbed that and thought, you know, you know, you know, relief at last. [04:24:29.590 – 04:24:33.630] But, but that, but that's, that's fleeting because it didn't mitigate anything. [04:24:33.630 – 04:24:35.690] It didn't change anything whatsoever. [04:24:35.690 – 04:24:43.190] Uh, my behavior was exactly what it was, and I, and I couldn't take any kind of a d- an out like that. [04:24:43.190 – 04:24:44.550] It just was wrong. [04:24:44.550 – 04:24:45.410] It'd be dead wrong. [04:24:45.410 – 04:24:47.170] And so I just dismissed that. [04:24:47.170 – 04:24:50.280] And so he, he told me, uh, that what they were doing.

[04:24:50.280 – 04:25:00.680] He said, "The families would like for you to come up and, and testify at the hearing." And I said, "Look, I'd be glad to do anything, [04:25:00.680 – 04:25:07.250] but I don't have any testimony." You know, the hell of blackouts is you can't even defend yourself, much less somebody else. [04:25:07.250 – 04:25:10.490] And, uh, I said, "I don't have anything to say. [04:25:10.490 – 04:25:13.190] The, the only testimony I made at my own trial was, 'I'm sorry. [04:25:13.190 – 04:25:15.290] I don't know.'" And that's all you do.

[04:25:15.290 – 04:25:22.900] If somebody told you something you did and you, you, and you, y- you, it'd be abhorrent to you, the only thing you can say if you were in a blackout is, "I'm sorry. [04:25:22.900 – 04:25:23.520] I don't know. [04:25:23.520 – 04:25:26.159] I, good God, I wouldn't do that." Of course. [04:25:26.159 – 04:25:34.670] And, and so he, he ran down to him and he said, "Well, they think it would help." And I said, "Well, I'll be glad to do it." And so I went up. [04:25:34.670 – 04:25:37.010] And, and you talk about an, an eerie…

[04:25:37.010 – 04:25:38.470] But there's opportunity. [04:25:38.470 – 04:25:40.490] At least it's moving toward opportunity. [04:25:40.490 – 04:25:45.409] So I go up, and it's in the same courtroom where I was convicted. [04:25:45.409 – 04:25:45.870] Mm-hmm. [04:25:45.870 – 04:25:48.610] And, uh, eerie feeling. [04:25:48.610 – 04:25:50.150] Eerie feeling. [04:25:50.150 – 04:25:57.170] Went and sat down, listened to it, testified like the testimony of a guy in a blackout. [04:25:57.170 – 04:25:57.890] "I'm sorry. [04:25:57.890 – 04:26:00.890] I don't know." Same thing I testified years be- before. [04:26:00.890 – 04:26:10.930] And, uh, we, in the course of the trial, you know how the judge will, will take the attorneys and go, they call it to

[04:26:10.930 – 04:26:11.530] chambers. [04:26:11.530 – 04:26:15.870] They go back and judge off to review laws, whatever they do, or, or shoot the bull. [04:26:15.870 – 04:26:17.930] I don't know what they're doing, but they go back there and do it. [04:26:17.930 – 04:26:27.970] And, uh, so they go back, and the bailiff, the, the, you know, the uniform guy came over and went to the families and said, "Come on." I thought it was [04:26:27.970 – 04:26:28.810] a potty break, you know. [04:26:28.810 – 04:26:29.770] And so they were, they… [04:26:29.770 – 04:26:30.700] We went down the hall. [04:26:30.700 – 04:26:35.010] And, uh, and I paid no, I paid no attention to that.

[04:26:35.010 – 04:26:37.390] I mean, of course, I'm watching them all the time, you know. [04:26:37.390 – 04:26:47.390] But they go down, comes back, and he comes over to me and says, "Come on, let's go down the hall." And, uh, so I think he's giving [04:26:47.390 – 04:26:48.850] me the same courtesy, you know. [04:26:48.850 – 04:26:50.570] And so I go down the hall. [04:26:50.570 – 04:26:54.329] We came to a place and he opened a door. [04:26:54.329 – 04:27:01.370] Now, if you, I don't know if there's any lawyers here, and I wouldn't ask you to admit it publicly anyway if, if y'all, if there are.

[04:27:01.370 – 04:27:05.750] Uh, opened that door. [04:27:05.750 – 04:27:11.480] Have, have you ever been just so shocked that it, it was like a huge fl- [04:27:11.610 – 04:27:16.310] Flashbulb went off i-in the entire world when I walked in there and saw the scene. [04:27:16.310 – 04:27:20.150] I mean, it, it was just that total t-terror and panic. [04:27:20.150 – 04:27:27.890] Uh, here were both families standing on either side of the room, one in one corner and one up in the other corner. [04:27:27.890 – 04:27:34.170] Now this is, it, the reason I ask about lawyers, this is as wrong as possibly could be.

[04:27:34.170 – 04:27:37.250] But apparently, God doesn't pay a lot of attention to law. [04:27:37.250 – 04:27:40.070] He just does what He gonna do, you know? [04:27:40.070 – 04:27:48.090] You don't put, you don't put the offender privately with the offended. [04:27:48.090 – 04:27:48.730] I mean, that's… [04:27:48.730 – 04:27:49.450] I mean, good God. [04:27:49.450 – 04:27:51.170] You don't have to be a lawyer to know that. [04:27:51.170 – 04:27:57.170] And so, God, I've got through there and He walked off, closed the door. [04:27:57.170 – 04:28:00.350] Now I, I was about like Forrest Gump. [04:28:00.350 – 04:28:07.430] My thought was, "Run, run." Because I prayed for opportunity, but it wasn't really that day, you know?

[04:28:07.430 – 04:28:07.550] I… [04:28:07.550 – 04:28:13.830] And so, but I'm standing there looking, and I said, "Well, looks like your prayer is answered. [04:28:13.830 – 04:28:16.989] You either move or collapse, one or the other. [04:28:16.989 – 04:28:25.390] Yeah, what are you gonna do?" And I stepped forward, and, uh, went to the first family, and I swe- uh, I never… [04:28:25.390 – 04:28:31.430] I don't know why, but they were as warm and welcoming a-and loving as, as my own family would've been. [04:28:31.430 – 04:28:33.310] Excuse me. [04:28:33.310 – 04:28:37.390] And, uh, truly, truly generous, warm, loving people.

[04:28:37.390 – 04:28:45.520] And so we talked and, uh, I said what, what I wanted to say, and they s- they said what they wanted to, and I thought they were gonna ask me to come home for dinner or something. [04:28:45.520 – 04:28:51.250] I mean, they were truly, truly, uh, uh, marvelously warm, uh, totally forgiving people. [04:28:51.250 – 04:28:52.430] That wasn't what I was asking for. [04:28:52.430 – 04:28:56.890] I just wanted them to, ex-excuse me, to hear what I had to say. [04:28:56.890 – 04:29:02.100] And so finished up, and, and man, that was something else.

[04:29:02.100 – 04:29:08.310] The other family, they were recently a immigrated family from Eastern Europe. [04:29:08.310 – 04:29:10.130] I, I'd say one of those s-sort of… [04:29:10.130 – 04:29:17.530] And it was a, it was a paternal s- family, you know, where the father is the, is the, is the, the key man. [04:29:17.530 – 04:29:21.389] And so they were in that family circle, and they were speaking their, their native language. [04:29:21.389 – 04:29:29.550] And so I just walked up, and the father stepped out of the circle, and he came over and I said, uh, I didn't need to tell him who I was.

[04:29:29.550 – 04:29:39.770] I said, "Could I speak with the family?" And he said, he said, "No, speak with me." And he's, uh, he's the head of the, [04:29:40.710 – 04:29:41.250] head of the family. [04:29:41.250 – 04:29:50.670] So I t- I took him up on that and, and so I talked with him and, and, and said what I had to say, and, uh, and he was very attentive and very courteous. [04:29:50.670 – 04:29:56.930] And, uh, and, and when I finished, he, he, he said, "I'll go talk to the family." He did.

[04:29:56.930 – 04:29:59.350] He went and talked with them in the circle. [04:29:59.350 – 04:30:09.350] And I just stood waiting, and then he came out and he said, "We appreciate your coming," excuse me, "but [04:30:09.350 – 04:30:13.170] we can't forgive." Well, I mean, I understood that, you know? [04:30:13.170 – 04:30:18.830] And I, and I, and I fully, fully r-respected what he was saying, that they just couldn't handle it, and… [04:30:18.830 – 04:30:21.190] But I mean, I wasn't asking for forgiveness. [04:30:21.190 – 04:30:28.110] But the, the, the thing is, my heart goes out to that family because the other family's free.

[04:30:28.110 – 04:30:29.330] They're free. [04:30:29.330 – 04:30:31.510] That family is… [04:30:31.510 – 04:30:33.170] Uh, thanks a million. [04:30:33.170 – 04:30:34.170] Well, I appreciate it. [04:30:34.170 – 04:30:35.870] You escaped that time. [04:30:35.870 – 04:30:36.740] There you go. [04:30:36.740 – 04:30:37.670] Yeah, exactly. [04:30:37.670 – 04:30:38.010] Yeah. [04:30:38.010 – 04:30:38.470] Yeah. [04:30:38.470 – 04:30:41.570] But, but, but I understood that. [04:30:41.570 – 04:30:43.850] I, I mean, it, it was to-totally understandable. [04:30:43.850 – 04:30:50.310] And, uh, but that other family was genuinely free, and this one is still locked in, uh, anger and hate. [04:30:50.310 – 04:30:54.170] So I still have the same addition to my step. [04:30:54.170 – 04:30:57.490] It's, it's, it's pray of opportunity. [04:30:57.490 – 04:30:58.740] And who knows? [04:30:58.740 – 04:31:00.190] I mean, it may never come.

[04:31:00.190 – 04:31:10.270] But as Step says, we, we, we make amends wherever possi- uh, wherever possible, with one little caveat, except when to [04:31:10.270 – 04:31:11.910] do so would injure them or others. [04:31:11.910 – 04:31:17.470] We can't find our relief at somebody else's expense. [04:31:17.470 – 04:31:18.930] It's just simple as that. [04:31:18.930 – 04:31:21.850] So I had to respect that, and I had to walk away. [04:31:21.850 – 04:31:29.230] But the, the point is that, that, that in doing these amends, it's not always a cakewalk. [04:31:29.230 – 04:31:31.770] It's not always a happy reunion. [04:31:31.770 – 04:31:33.770] Sometimes it's bad news.

[04:31:33.770 – 04:31:36.690] Uh, I had to… [04:31:36.690 – 04:31:38.330] I didn't have to, but I did. [04:31:38.330 – 04:31:48.090] Uh, y-you know, I mentioned, uh, for those of you there, you know, like, like I mentioned about those, some of those early formation of character defects about my dad leaving the family. [04:31:48.090 – 04:31:50.470] Now I didn't know this guy. [04:31:50.470 – 04:31:54.950] You know, I'd, I'd met him twice on the street and saw him walking away, but, but I didn't know him. [04:31:54.950 – 04:31:59.790] Never heard from him, never had any communication, uh, at all.

[04:31:59.790 – 04:32:09.830] And somehow or other, I, I, I could never explain it, but somewhere when I was about twel- maybe 12, 15 years sober, somewhere in that neighborhood, I started to get [04:32:09.830 – 04:32:15.310] troubled of the notion that I needed to, to make amends to that guy. [04:32:15.310 – 04:32:17.370] Now you talk about a one-man debate. [04:32:17.370 – 04:32:18.870] You know, you need to make… [04:32:18.870 – 04:32:19.670] What for? [04:32:19.670 – 04:32:20.990] My God, what did I do? [04:32:20.990 – 04:32:22.390] You know, I didn't do anything at all. [04:32:22.390 – 04:32:23.510] I'm the victim, man. [04:32:23.510 – 04:32:25.290] I'm not the, the culprit in this thing.

[04:32:25.290 – 04:32:28.250] So I'm arguing with that thing, and I lost the argument. [04:32:28.250 – 04:32:34.230] And, uh, that it wasn't to, to do, to do with him, it's to do with, with how I felt on the inside. [04:32:34.230 – 04:32:37.570] It's what I'd carried for my entire life. [04:32:37.570 – 04:32:40.130] And I wasn't angry with the guy. [04:32:40.130 – 04:32:41.970] I, he was just written off. [04:32:41.970 – 04:32:44.330] You know, he didn't exist as far as I was concerned. [04:32:44.330 – 04:32:45.630] But he's still there. [04:32:45.630 – 04:32:52.510] And, and, and so what I had built up over the years was not disabling me, but it was there.

[04:32:52.510 – 04:32:54.810] And it's an unnecessary piece of baggage. [04:32:54.810 – 04:32:57.870] And so I knew I needed to make amends. [04:32:57.870 – 04:32:59.770] So I took the initiative. [04:32:59.770 – 04:33:03.930] Uh, and, and, and I'd, I've learned where he was. [04:33:03.930 – 04:33:07.630] And I didn't call to make an appointment, I just showed up. [04:33:07.630 – 04:33:17.774] And, and, and when I showed up, uh, uh, he didn't recognize me, uh, but I introduced myself And I guarantee you that boy would have rather [04:33:17.774 – 04:33:21.114] been on the moon or anywhere other than where he was.

[04:33:21.114 – 04:33:24.134] You know how people are when they're trapped, you know, his eyes are darting around. [04:33:24.134 – 04:33:33.013] He's trying to figure out, "How do I get out of here?" And, uh, he had, had a neighbor there, and the neighbor caught on that there was something going on, and he boogied away. [04:33:33.013 – 04:33:43.034] And so I, I told my dad, I said, "I, I just need to have a little talk with you, and if we can just go somewhere and sit down, I want to talk." And, and basically,

[04:33:43.034 – 04:33:45.134] I didn't have any major stuff to do with him. [04:33:45.134 – 04:33:55.174] I just needed to tell him, tell him about my reaction and just [04:33:55.174 – 04:33:56.114] what I dealt with. [04:33:56.114 – 04:33:57.214] Excuse me. [04:33:57.214 – 04:33:59.154] By golly, this thing's not working right. [04:33:59.154 – 04:34:09.154] And he, you know, just like a lot of people, most people that I had to do amends with, particularly people that I was close and personal with, most [04:34:09.154 – 04:34:10.114] people didn't want to hear it. [04:34:10.114 – 04:34:11.994] They really didn't want to hear it. [04:34:11.994 – 04:34:13.234] And he sure didn't want to hear it.

[04:34:13.234 – 04:34:14.494] But I had him trapped. [04:34:14.494 – 04:34:17.734] I had him right in a corner in a rocking chair, and I wouldn't let him up. [04:34:17.734 – 04:34:19.664] And so I just, I just, I just told him. [04:34:19.664 – 04:34:20.633] I wasn't beating him up. [04:34:20.633 – 04:34:21.654] I didn't want to beat him up. [04:34:21.654 – 04:34:27.694] You know, this guy was just somebody who didn't have the, the, the genealogy to be a father, I guess. [04:34:27.694 – 04:34:29.394] He just, it, it wasn't in him. [04:34:29.394 – 04:34:34.954] And, uh, but, but, but I got through with it, and, and it was really an interesting thing.

[04:34:34.954 – 04:34:37.234] That boy was a lot like me. [04:34:37.234 – 04:34:47.414] He told me about himself after I, I told him, and he said, "You know, I think I was on the way to being an alcoholic." He said, "I was drinking [04:34:47.414 – 04:34:58.774] an awful lot back then." And, uh, when I was 24 years old, just like me, he met a guy on the street for whom he had a lot of respect, and [04:34:58.774 – 04:35:06.214] he said this guy stopped him, called him by name, and he said, "You know, you're a, you're a, a, you, you're a fine young man.

[04:35:06.214 – 04:35:08.154] You got the, the makings of a good guy. [04:35:08.154 – 04:35:16.514] But if you don't stop drinking, uh, you, you're going over the end." And he heard it, and he never had a drink. [04:35:16.514 – 04:35:21.054] I'm not sure he ever smiled either, yeah, but, but he never had a drink. [04:35:21.054 – 04:35:23.434] And, uh, after he and my mother… [04:35:23.434 – 04:35:24.854] I mean, they didn't break up. [04:35:24.854 – 04:35:25.493] He left. [04:35:25.493 – 04:35:26.834] He married… [04:35:26.834 – 04:35:35.144] I mean, no insinuation in this, but he married a, an extremely well-nourished lady that, uh- …

[04:35:35.144 – 04:35:39.593] named, uh- Well, that's the most delicate way I can put it. [04:35:39.593 – 04:35:40.094] I tell you. [04:35:40.094 – 04:35:42.134] She's a tub, is what she was. [04:35:42.134 – 04:35:46.374] And, but, and, and she just ratchet mouth, you know. [04:35:46.374 – 04:35:50.594] And she didn't know me, and she's talking to me like that. [04:35:50.594 – 04:35:57.134] Well, I thought, "My God, this guy needs amends." So he, so he's, he's telling me about himself, and I'm looking at where he is. [04:35:57.134 – 04:35:59.694] I, I wanted to help him, you know. [04:35:59.694 – 04:36:04.254] But, but he said he had never had a drink.

[04:36:04.254 – 04:36:07.914] And I honest to God don't think he'd ever had a real good laugh in, in that time. [04:36:07.914 – 04:36:10.254] And so we just visited. [04:36:10.254 – 04:36:12.664] And, uh, and so there was no beating on him. [04:36:12.664 – 04:36:16.734] There was nothing to do except just to, to sort of put a relationship together. [04:36:16.734 – 04:36:20.774] And, uh, he was a guy that was not capable of fatherhood. [04:36:20.774 – 04:36:21.874] He just didn't know how to respond. [04:36:21.874 – 04:36:24.854] When we had our first child, we sent him a birth notice. [04:36:24.854 – 04:36:26.414] He never even acknowledged the birth notice.

[04:36:26.414 – 04:36:28.734] There just wasn't any, you know. [04:36:28.734 – 04:36:33.794] And, and, uh, but the thing is, we don't always have to be the taker, eh? [04:36:33.794 – 04:36:35.114] You know, you can be the giver. [04:36:35.114 – 04:36:45.314] And then when he got terminal and, uh, and then I learned about it, I went down and was able to, excuse me, able [04:36:45.314 – 04:36:51.634] to be there for, for, for, for his demise and then to help the family with the deal. [04:36:51.634 – 04:36:52.534] That's what… [04:36:52.534 – 04:36:54.714] That's what this is about. [04:36:54.714 – 04:37:01.174] It's about being able to function in life and to take a place and be a, a responsible human.

[04:37:01.174 – 04:37:02.054] Oh, bless your heart. [04:37:02.054 – 04:37:03.094] Thank you very much. [04:37:03.094 – 04:37:08.134] You look a lot better than the last guy that gave me a- … [04:37:08.134 – 04:37:08.694] a bloody face. [04:37:08.694 – 04:37:09.834] It was Jim. [04:37:09.834 – 04:37:13.694] Thanks a million. [04:37:13.694 – 04:37:19.454] Um, so anyway, you know, you, you never know what you're going to get into in, in those amends, you know. [04:37:19.454 – 04:37:22.834] That, you know, those are things, some of those are things I could have easily ignored. [04:37:22.834 – 04:37:28.134] I'll tell you just one more that was, um, particularly meaningful to me.

[04:37:28.134 – 04:37:30.134] I had a… [04:37:30.134 – 04:37:40.414] When I got thrown out of the Army with that undesirable, I, I, I got a job selling soft drinks [04:37:40.414 – 04:37:41.814] in, in Charlotte. [04:37:41.814 – 04:37:46.014] And, uh, and, and the soft drink I was selling, you had to sell. [04:37:46.014 – 04:37:47.834] Nobody come shopping for it. [04:37:47.834 – 04:37:50.994] It was new on the market, and you had to sell that sucker. [04:37:50.994 – 04:37:52.664] And, and I, I made- [04:37:52.898 – 04:37:54.398] An auspicious beginning. [04:37:54.398 – 04:37:58.438] I wrecked one of his trucks the second day I was on the job.

[04:37:58.438 – 04:38:03.978] But my quick, keen mind responded, and I had a great story. [04:38:03.978 – 04:38:05.798] And, uh, he kept me. [04:38:05.798 – 04:38:13.738] And a year later, uh, he, he didn't keep me anymore when he… [04:38:13.738 – 04:38:14.858] And we parted company. [04:38:14.858 – 04:38:20.158] I had, I had got the hooks into him for a little bit of money. [04:38:20.158 – 04:38:20.858] It wasn't much. [04:38:20.858 – 04:38:22.918] But it's not the amount. [04:38:22.918 – 04:38:25.158] As I mentioned earlier, it's the violation of trust. [04:38:25.158 – 04:38:29.098] This was a, a really fine man, really good man. [04:38:29.098 – 04:38:34.758] And, uh, of all the people I'd ripped off, he was top of the list.

[04:38:34.758 – 04:38:36.598] I needed to make amends. [04:38:36.598 – 04:38:41.158] Now, what I'm gonna tell you is not good business, unless you're talking about the business of recovery. [04:38:41.158 – 04:38:43.298] I just got out of jail. [04:38:43.298 – 04:38:45.198] I got no money. [04:38:45.198 – 04:38:51.338] I borrowed the money to go make amends to the guy for money I owed him. [04:38:51.338 – 04:38:56.698] And so, when I went over, I thought, "Sure everybody's just gonna pounce on me the minute I walk in the door. [04:38:56.698 – 04:38:58.598] 'You sorry devil, you're back.'" You know. [04:38:58.598 – 04:39:03.718] Walked in, the secretary, same person, still sitting in the same position.

[04:39:03.718 – 04:39:05.998] She hadn't moved, I don't think, for all those years. [04:39:05.998 – 04:39:08.878] And so, I told her who I was. [04:39:08.878 – 04:39:10.458] Didn't know me. [04:39:10.458 – 04:39:12.618] Didn't, didn't even know the name. [04:39:12.618 – 04:39:15.738] So I said, "Well, I'd, I'd like to see Mr. [04:39:15.738 – 04:39:16.138] Brown. [04:39:16.138 – 04:39:26.138] I used to work here and I'd, I'd, I'd like to see him, if I can." She said, "Well, he's a very busy man." I said, "Yeah, I know that, but I'd, I'd like to see him." And she said, "Well, he probably won't be

[04:39:26.138 – 04:39:34.518] able to work it in, but I'll, I'll…" And and I said, "It's about some money I owe him." She said, "Okay, I'll go check it out." She got, she got a little, little more animated. [04:39:34.518 – 04:39:39.598] She went in and she, she came out and she said, "He said he'll see you." So I went in, and here… [04:39:39.598 – 04:39:43.468] He was a little man sitting behind a massive desk, you know. [04:39:43.468 – 04:39:47.178] And, and, and, uh, it's that little man complex, I guess.

[04:39:47.178 – 04:39:47.658] But anyway. [04:39:47.658 – 04:39:53.808] And, uh, I went over there and, uh, he didn't know me at all. [04:39:53.808 – 04:40:03.098] And so, I told him who I was and he said, "Well, it's nice to meet you." I said, "We met." And so, then I started to make amends and, and I d- I didn't do it well. [04:40:03.098 – 04:40:07.838] That was the first one after I'd got out of the Institute where I was walking in to somebody. [04:40:07.838 – 04:40:12.258] And, uh, he was right top of the list 'cause he was such a nice guy.

[04:40:12.258 – 04:40:21.518] And, and so I, I told him what I was, uh, there for and, and, uh, that I'd ripped him off and I'd, and, uh, failed to, to, to pay a, a debt I owed there. [04:40:21.518 – 04:40:32.078] And, and he said, "Well, I really appreciate you coming in and, and I think that's a good thing that you're doing." He said, "But really, [04:40:32.078 – 04:40:42.238] I don't want the money." And I said, "Well, I mean, that's good, but I need to pay it to you." And, uh, he said, "It'll screw up my accounting."

[04:40:42.678 – 04:40:51.318] And I said, "I'm sorry about your accounting, but, but I have got to pay this money." And then I, I hadn't been clear enough to him what I was doing, so I told him. [04:40:51.318 – 04:40:59.858] I said, "I'm in Alcoholics Anonymous, and I have got to get this stuff out of my system, all the wrongs that I've put on people over the years. [04:40:59.858 – 04:41:01.338] That's why I'm here. [04:41:01.338 – 04:41:02.718] I'm not here 'cause I'm a nice fellow. [04:41:02.718 – 04:41:07.758] I need to make these amends." And he said…

[04:41:07.758 – 04:41:09.358] He reached up, took his glasses. [04:41:09.358 – 04:41:12.378] He said, he said, "Well, I'll be darned. [04:41:12.378 – 04:41:15.278] I've been in business 40 years. [04:41:15.278 – 04:41:24.418] I've never had anybody do anything like this." I said, "Me either." You know, "We, we're doing it together for the first time." And … [04:41:24.418 – 04:41:26.258] And he took it, you know, and finally. [04:41:26.258 – 04:41:31.258] He wouldn't have taken it if I hadn't told him my mission. [04:41:31.258 – 04:41:33.818] But, you know, that's the beauty of amends, eh? [04:41:33.818 – 04:41:40.157] Like, for y- for years, when I would go into Charlotte, I knew where he al- he always ate lunch, same place.

[04:41:40.157 – 04:41:45.518] And I would make it a point to go and, and in there at lunchtime, just, just grab a sandwich or something. [04:41:45.518 – 04:41:47.258] Never failed. [04:41:47.258 – 04:41:53.278] He would always come over, and his code was, he'd say, "Good to see you. [04:41:53.278 – 04:41:55.998] How's that work going?" I'd say, "Good. [04:41:55.998 – 04:42:02.158] Real good." But that's the function of amends, you know. [04:42:02.158 – 04:42:11.558] It's that restoration, so I don't have to feel guilty and hangdog, look the world in the eye, breathe free, and, uh, and, and take my place in the world.

[04:42:11.558 – 04:42:16.838] And that, that's why to me, those amends are so important, 'cause it's the freedom steps. [04:42:16.838 – 04:42:26.838] And as long as you're dragging that junk behind you, I don't believe that I would never be a free man as long as I drug the stuff behind me that, that, that was [04:42:26.838 – 04:42:27.618] in my wake. [04:42:27.618 – 04:42:31.478] And, and so I, I'm, I'm, I'm a, a tremendous believer in that. [04:42:31.478 – 04:42:33.598] I, I would say the only time… [04:42:33.598 – 04:42:40.558] I met Bill Wilson one time, and, uh, I, I went to my first International 65.

[04:42:40.558 – 04:42:47.358] Primary, my primary motive, I couldn't afford it, but I, I, I just felt like that'd be my last chance to see Bill. [04:42:47.358 – 04:42:49.498] And for some reason, I just wanted to see him, you know. [04:42:49.498 – 04:42:50.858] Didn't want to tell him anything. [04:42:50.858 – 04:42:55.718] I wanted to just I guess, being his presence, make sure he's there, you know. [04:42:55.718 – 04:42:57.658] And so, I, so I went up there to see him. [04:42:57.658 – 04:43:00.238] God, he was everywhere. [04:43:00.238 – 04:43:03.767] He looked like the Energizer Bunny back then and he's all over the place and he's speaking.

[04:43:03.767 – 04:43:05.438] There was always a mass of people. [04:43:05.438 – 04:43:07.598] We had a traditions workshop. [04:43:07.598 – 04:43:13.178] Well, you can always count on a fairly skinny crowd at, at a traditions workshop. [04:43:13.178 – 04:43:15.718] And so, I said, "Now's my chance." I went in. [04:43:15.718 – 04:43:18.858] They had probably only 35 or 40 of us there. [04:43:18.858 – 04:43:21.578] We only had 25,000 at that International then. [04:43:21.578 – 04:43:27.918] So, we met, and I listened to Bill, uh, up close and personal. [04:43:27.918 – 04:43:30.038] And he was talking about… [04:43:30.038 – 04:43:34.598] He was really talking about anonymity, but he got into a little bit about amends.

[04:43:34.598 – 04:43:37.738] And he was talking about very much just, uh, uh, uh… [04:43:37.738 – 04:43:40.438] He probably influenced me the way I approach that thing. [04:43:40.438 – 04:43:41.498] I know he did. [04:43:41.498 – 04:43:44.078] And he was talking about the freedom. [04:43:44.078 – 04:43:46.058] He said the freedom that comes. [04:43:46.058 – 04:43:56.066] And what he said was, "If we take these actions, if we take these actions and do these things thoroughly-" There [04:43:56.066 – 04:44:04.966] will come a day when we'll be able to walk the streets of this world and look anybody we meet in the eye.

[04:44:04.966 – 04:44:10.886] Well, I was about up to, to knees I think is about high I'd gotten. [04:44:10.886 – 04:44:12.066] I was nowhere close to eyes. [04:44:12.066 – 04:44:17.786] And I thought, "My God," you know, "that's sort of a pipe dream of a thing." But he told the truth. [04:44:17.786 – 04:44:19.426] He told the absolute truth. [04:44:19.426 – 04:44:24.086] I know of no place on this planet today that I can't walk comfortably. [04:44:24.086 – 04:44:28.566] Some places I don't walk because I'm s- smart enough not to. [04:44:28.566 – 04:44:31.586] But, uh, uh, but I can walk comfortably.

[04:44:31.586 – 04:44:33.726] Even those places, 'cause that's where I used to live. [04:44:33.726 – 04:44:38.766] And so I can do that, but I just don't hang out and, and don't have to hang out like that anymore. [04:44:38.766 – 04:44:40.386] But that was a… [04:44:40.386 – 04:44:41.746] That, that meant a lot to me. [04:44:41.746 – 04:44:42.946] You know, that vision. [04:44:42.946 – 04:44:49.906] And, and the thing I, I truly valued about Bill, Bill was his a- ability to capture the visionary quality of AA. [04:44:49.906 – 04:44:53.146] Remarkable man. [04:44:53.146 – 04:44:53.786] And it… [04:44:53.786 – 04:44:55.926] What he's talking about is just exactly what we're talking about.

[04:44:55.926 – 04:45:03.965] And you see people like that thing that, that, that Woody did the copies for are, are the guys who never got to that. [04:45:03.965 – 04:45:05.406] They never got to it. [04:45:05.406 – 04:45:14.726] They, they, they detoured en route, and then wind up to a tragic end, because you can't live miserable and successfully at the same time. [04:45:14.726 – 04:45:16.906] That's gotta be reconciled somewhere. [04:45:16.906 – 04:45:21.185] And that guy had, had reconciled it by putting a rope around his neck. [04:45:21.185 – 04:45:23.266] And so it, that happens all too often.

[04:45:23.266 – 04:45:29.626] So, so amends are not just in the, in the, in the bracket of gaining a good reputation. [04:45:29.626 – 04:45:35.846] To me, it's in the v- in the, in the realm of, of becoming free and able to function. [04:45:35.846 – 04:45:39.646] And, and live without somebody eating your lunch every day. [04:45:39.646 – 04:45:40.706] Good God. [04:45:40.706 – 04:45:42.066] Now what a way to live. [04:45:42.066 – 04:45:45.046] So that's what is tremendously valuable to me. [04:45:45.046 – 04:45:48.246] And, uh, the, uh… [04:45:48.246 – 04:45:53.046] Say one last thing and then let's, let's just chat a few minutes before we, before we boogie.

[04:45:53.046 – 04:45:54.226] Oh, wait a minute. [04:45:54.226 – 04:45:55.046] No, we're not quite there. [04:45:55.046 – 04:45:56.446] Yeah, yeah. [04:45:56.446 – 04:45:57.746] We're, we're headed that way. [04:45:57.746 – 04:46:08.146] The, uh, the, the, the thing that, that [04:46:08.146 – 04:46:12.526] just slipped my mind was, uh, uh- … [04:46:12.526 – 04:46:13.026] the… [04:46:13.026 – 04:46:17.526] Well, I'll be darned. [04:46:17.526 – 04:46:21.506] I just drew a flat blank on, on, on where I was going with that, and I didn't wanna miss it. [04:46:21.506 – 04:46:22.746] I wanted to hear it again. [04:46:22.746 – 04:46:32.766] Well, anyway, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the failure to do this, you know,

[04:46:32.766 – 04:46:36.226] j- it just produces that kind of a deal, you know, of, of, of hanging it up. [04:46:36.226 – 04:46:40.086] And, and I, I think that's, uh, the whole thrust of, uh… [04:46:40.086 – 04:46:50.886] You know, what I wanna do with people, at least one of the things w- that I'm working with, I wanna help them understand better than I'm doing now [04:46:50.886 – 04:46:58.106] the criticality of the program of recovery, and to understand that stopping drinking is not the solution. [04:46:58.106 – 04:47:00.266] It's not the, it's not the completion.

[04:47:00.266 – 04:47:01.246] It's the start. [04:47:01.246 – 04:47:05.566] Stopping drinking is the start of recovery, not the, not the finish. [04:47:05.566 – 04:47:15.006] And then understand that it's, it's the thoroughness with which I do this that's gonna give me the quality of life that I'm looking for and it'll let me be free. [04:47:15.006 – 04:47:25.306] The place in, uh, right after, right after the, the prom- the promises, you know, that come right after the amends process, as [04:47:25.306 – 04:47:30.466] you start into the, to the promises, there's a little line there that I think says, uh, an awful lot.

[04:47:30.466 – 04:47:36.806] If we are painstaking, that means we really get down to nitty-gritty. [04:47:36.806 – 04:47:45.186] If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, the amends process, we'll be amazed before we're half through. [04:47:45.186 – 04:47:46.006] Hey, yeah. [04:47:46.006 – 04:47:48.286] Remember that lead in? [04:47:48.286 – 04:47:51.326] And then it tells those impossible dreams. [04:47:51.326 – 04:47:54.166] And by golly, it's true. [04:47:54.166 – 04:47:56.026] It is true. [04:47:56.026 – 04:48:00.226] You know, there's absolutely nothing in those promises that hasn't become a part of how I live. [04:48:00.226 – 04:48:05.786] And, and that, and that's the great news of this thing, is part of that restoration.

[04:48:05.786 – 04:48:08.486] And let's talk a little. [04:48:08.486 – 04:48:14.076] And, uh, uh, tomorrow what we'll do is pick up on, um, you know, on the, uh, last three steps. [04:48:14.076 – 04:48:20.166] And the, um, uh, w- we won't have a whole bunch of time, but we'll have enough to, to get through. [04:48:20.166 – 04:48:25.076] Uh, just like you do I'm sure, I've got my own take on, on these things. [04:48:25.076 – 04:48:33.746] A lot of people look at the last three steps as, uh, they call them maintenance steps or something, where we just sort of keep our canoe in, repaired and all that.

[04:48:34.940 – 04:48:36.360] I don't, you know, you know. [04:48:36.360 – 04:48:40.300] And, and some people look at them as sort of spiritual meditation steps, you know? [04:48:40.300 – 04:48:44.700] What I look at them is, is, is absolute action steps. [04:48:44.700 – 04:48:54.800] What I've found is that from step 10 on, you know, once you leave the promises, from step 10 on, everything in the program [04:48:54.800 – 04:48:57.940] starts with me and ends with others. [04:48:57.940 – 04:48:59.640] None of it ends with me. [04:48:59.640 – 04:49:02.180] Starts with me, ends with others. [04:49:02.180 – 04:49:12.200] And, and so tomorrow, that w- we'll, uh, we'll get into that thing on, uh, on h- how to get spiritually prepared, how to get in the right frame of mind, how

[04:49:12.200 – 04:49:16.850] to, to, to find avenues to, to do exactly what that's talking about. [04:49:16.850 – 04:49:20.980] To have a brand new life and to really enjoy some recovery. [04:49:20.980 – 04:49:24.740] They talk about getting rocketed into a fourth dimension and all that kind of stuff. [04:49:24.740 – 04:49:28.400] I think these last three steps are the ones that do exactly that. [04:49:28.400 – 04:49:29.380] It's the rocket ship. [04:49:29.380 – 04:49:31.780] So we'll do that then. [04:49:31.780 – 04:49:33.820] But let's talk a little bit, uh, men's stuff here. [04:49:33.820 – 04:49:36.300] Any- anybody's experiences that you might want to share.

[04:49:36.300 – 04:49:38.900] Anything about any of that, that, uh… [04:49:38.900 – 04:49:40.600] Let's, let's do it. [04:49:40.600 – 04:49:44.299] Yeah. [04:49:44.299 – 04:49:48.280] I've, I've got to get Mike to, uh, wherever it is. [04:49:48.280 – 04:49:50.550] It's Ann. [04:49:50.550 – 04:49:51.360] Jim stole it. [04:49:51.360 – 04:49:52.140] Oh, she's got it. [04:49:52.140 – 04:49:52.420] Yeah. [04:49:52.420 – 04:49:54.379] I'm Ann, alcoholic. [04:49:54.379 – 04:49:55.120] Ann. [04:49:55.120 – 04:49:58.620] And I actually wanted to back up to six and seven from what the gentleman was saying. [04:49:58.620 – 04:50:05.640] And for me, um, just I got a little keeper this week from my sponsor, and they mean a, the world to me, 'cause then I can really put it into practice.

[04:50:05.640 – 04:50:11.400] But in five, I start for the first time seeing a real look at my flaws and what doesn't work about Ann. [04:50:11.400 – 04:50:16.200] And in six I'm getting ready, you know, being willing to get rid of that, 'cause it's not working for me. [04:50:16.200 – 04:50:22.880] And, uh, what I'm seeing is that I can't change Ann, and I need a sponsor and I need a God. [04:50:22.880 – 04:50:29.660] And what I do when I see something even today that I don't like that's not working in Ann, is I start…

[04:50:29.660 – 04:50:34.440] I need to start reforming my behaviors and my actions. [04:50:34.440 – 04:50:44.600] Whatever flaw it is, whether it's a behavior or it's something I'm doing, like eating too much or being sarcastic again, I need to reform those actions [04:50:44.600 – 04:50:46.980] and behaviors, and then I will be transformed. [04:50:46.980 – 04:50:50.060] That's called change, but I'm not doing it. [04:50:50.060 – 04:50:59.340] God is, and it's happening because I'm reforming my behaviors and my actions, then I can be transformed, which this whole program is transformative. [04:50:59.340 – 04:51:04.640] And that was like, okay, I got to stop drinking before I can start living sober.

[04:51:04.640 – 04:51:08.540] I got to stop being passive aggressive before I can start learning… [04:51:08.540 – 04:51:10.930] I mean, I got to start being direct before I… [04:51:10.930 – 04:51:13.940] I can't change what's wrong with Ann. [04:51:13.940 – 04:51:18.740] And whenever I do try to change or work on a defect, I go crazy. [04:51:18.740 – 04:51:18.940] You know? [04:51:18.940 – 04:51:20.260] And I've proven that over and over. [04:51:20.260 – 04:51:25.260] And then, then I get d- back to my knees and get humbled and say, "I need help, spons. [04:51:25.260 – 04:51:33.440] Which, what should I do?" You know, and I get clear-cut directions from somebody who's worked and taken, you know, taken the actions out of whatever defect it is.

[04:51:33.440 – 04:51:33.850] Mm-hmm. [04:51:33.850 – 04:51:44.360] And then, uh, eight and nine I found a sponsor is invaluable, because there were some amends, an example of something kind of silly is I grew up in Europe, military, uh, dependent, [04:51:44.360 – 04:51:46.120] and I st- I loved to steal stuff. [04:51:46.120 – 04:51:47.940] Didn't need to, but wanted to. [04:51:47.940 – 04:51:55.010] Um, and it was, like, just some few hundred dollars worth of stuff I'd stolen, and how was I gonna repay that? [04:51:55.010 – 04:52:05.140] And my sponsor knew instantly to say, "Okay, make a donation to the USO." And I'm like, "I never would've thought of that." I was thinking, oh, I have to go to Germany and I have to do this and do that, and buy

[04:52:05.140 – 04:52:07.760] these cigarettes back for the government or something stupid. [04:52:07.760 – 04:52:14.680] You know, just simple little things like that, that a sponsor knows how restitution will help you get freedom. [04:52:14.680 – 04:52:15.290] Mm-hmm. [04:52:15.290 – 04:52:18.820] That I'm not supposed to come up with this on my own, and I thought I was supposed to. [04:52:18.820 – 04:52:20.360] And, um, thank you. [04:52:20.360 – 04:52:21.120] Mm-hmm. [04:52:21.120 – 04:52:22.220] I thank you, Ann. [04:52:22.220 – 04:52:22.520] Yeah. [04:52:22.520 – 04:52:27.800] Yeah, if we take the actions, if we take the actions, stuff happens. [04:52:27.800 – 04:52:37.960] And, uh, you know, I, I can sit around a- a- and pray for potatoes all I want to, but if I really want potatoes, I better get a hoe, s- start planting some seeds

[04:52:37.960 – 04:52:43.020] or whatever you plant, because otherwise they're not gonna just have a spud and spring up of a crop, you know? [04:52:43.020 – 04:52:50.220] So, and I think the same way with this, you know, that, that if you really humbly ask him, y- y- y- uh, to, to, to, to remove our shortcomings. [04:52:50.220 – 04:52:53.800] And, and to me that's just two sides of a coin. [04:52:53.800 – 04:53:01.580] You know, defects are my overt actions and, and the, and the, uh, shortcomings are, are my deficits, the things I fail to do.

[04:53:01.580 – 04:53:03.920] So I think it's just two faces of a coin. [04:53:03.920 – 04:53:08.900] And then those steps, those steps are where the restoration occurs. [04:53:08.900 – 04:53:10.920] And so, so yeah. [04:53:10.920 – 04:53:11.440] Thank you. [04:53:11.440 – 04:53:12.240] Thank you very much. [04:53:12.240 – 04:53:13.160] Good observations. [04:53:13.160 – 04:53:13.480] Yeah. [04:53:13.480 – 04:53:14.360] Yes, Tom. [04:53:14.360 – 04:53:15.220] Uh, Terry again. [04:53:15.220 – 04:53:16.180] Is this on? [04:53:16.180 – 04:53:16.800] Yeah. [04:53:16.800 – 04:53:17.220] Yeah. [04:53:17.220 – 04:53:26.400] Uh, early on I had, uh, someone I, you know, owed an amends to, but I thought, you know, they owed… [04:53:26.400 – 04:53:28.840] You know, they had hurt me. [04:53:28.840 – 04:53:33.509] And, uh, you fr- I couldn't make the amends for, you know, quite a while.

[04:53:33.509 – 04:53:35.060] It was a couple of years. [04:53:35.060 – 04:53:39.680] And, uh, someone asked me to go on a retreat. [04:53:39.680 – 04:53:40.820] To do what? [04:53:40.820 – 04:53:41.900] Go on a retreat. [04:53:41.900 – 04:53:42.840] On amends retreat. [04:53:42.840 – 04:53:42.930] Oh, yeah. [04:53:42.930 – 04:53:43.380] Okay. [04:53:43.380 – 04:53:43.519] Yeah. [04:53:43.519 – 04:53:44.540] And I did. [04:53:44.540 – 04:53:52.579] I just blindly said yes, and I went on the retreat, and when I got there, I arrived, the, the theme of the retreat was forgiveness. [04:53:52.579 – 04:53:54.440] You know? [04:53:54.440 – 04:53:55.580] Mm-hmm. [04:53:55.580 – 04:53:57.880] And, uh, the guy was leading the treat. [04:53:57.880 – 04:54:02.220] There was this, uh, uh, Father Mike from Chicago, one of us.

[04:54:02.220 – 04:54:13.790] And, uh, you know, he said, uh, you know, uh, "Who held you to your worst behavior?" And I said, "Nobody." And [04:54:13.790 – 04:54:21.280] he s- you know, and he said to me, "But Terry, you're gonna hold this guy to his worst behavior, right?" He said, "Let me tell you something. [04:54:21.280 – 04:54:23.540] It's never about them. [04:54:23.540 – 04:54:30.460] It's always about us, and do we wanna free ourselves." "And that's what it's about." Yeah. [04:54:30.460 – 04:54:31.800] "You wanna free yourself? [04:54:31.800 – 04:54:33.900] That's what forgiveness means," he said.

[04:54:33.900 – 04:54:35.070] It's from the Greek. [04:54:35.070 – 04:54:36.300] It means to free yourself. [04:54:36.300 – 04:54:40.976] And, uh, you know, I didn't plan to go on that weekend. [04:54:40.976 – 04:54:44.895] That weekend happened, you know, like we say. [04:54:44.895 – 04:54:45.246] Yeah. [04:54:45.246 – 04:54:48.296] And I've never looked back, you know, from that. [04:54:48.296 – 04:54:49.216] Uh, you know what? [04:54:49.216 – 04:54:51.896] I came back, I wrote the guy a letter. [04:54:51.896 – 04:54:53.296] He called me. [04:54:53.296 – 04:54:54.176] We went to lunch. [04:54:54.176 – 04:55:00.716] You know, went over it, you know, and just I told him, you know, uh, where I was in the whole thing.

[04:55:00.716 – 04:55:07.276] And, uh, uh, we didn't come, uh, we didn't come- become great friends or keep the relationship going, but it resolved. [04:55:07.276 – 04:55:08.396] You know? [04:55:08.396 – 04:55:11.855] Uh, and, and I found out, you know, about closure. [04:55:11.855 – 04:55:16.456] You know, uh, we learn how to open doors, you know, and close doors. [04:55:16.456 – 04:55:16.956] We had… [04:55:16.956 – 04:55:24.696] We know, uh, how to open things, how to, how to start intimacy, you know, with, with people, and we know how to close things. [04:55:24.696 – 04:55:25.226] Yeah. [04:55:25.226 – 04:55:26.796] And what a gift- Mm-hmm …

[04:55:26.796 – 04:55:28.336] you know, that I wasn't looking for. [04:55:28.336 – 04:55:29.506] Mm-hmm. [04:55:29.506 – 04:55:29.506] That- Mm-hmm … [04:55:29.506 – 04:55:31.736] out of the blue- You bet. [04:55:31.736 – 04:55:32.016] You bet … [04:55:32.016 – 04:55:32.376] I got it. [04:55:32.376 – 04:55:32.886] Thanks. [04:55:32.886 – 04:55:33.936] Yeah, thanks. [04:55:33.936 – 04:55:36.476] You know, it's a, uh, strange thing. [04:55:36.476 – 04:55:44.376] Sometimes you have to take initiative even if the other person is more offensive, because if it's eat- if it's eating my lunch, you know, that's where the, the object of exercise. [04:55:44.376 – 04:55:53.416] I've, I've got a guy that I sponsor that, um, I've been working on for 10 years trying to get him to do some amend.

[04:55:53.416 – 04:56:01.716] What happened is, uh, they had a little child, live out in the country, and they have a little child that was… [04:56:01.716 – 04:56:05.256] had one of those Big Wheels or some- something that the kids ride. [04:56:05.256 – 04:56:12.096] And he rode it out into a road and, and somebody was driving along there and struck the, struck the child and killed him. [04:56:12.096 – 04:56:13.836] And there was… [04:56:13.836 – 04:56:15.156] It was a no-fault thing. [04:56:15.156 – 04:56:18.156] I mean, it was a total accident, unavoidable accident. [04:56:18.156 – 04:56:20.816] There was no arrest, no investigation.

[04:56:20.816 – 04:56:22.196] It was just sorrow everywhere. [04:56:22.196 – 04:56:26.716] But my guy simply… [04:56:26.716 – 04:56:28.216] Well, you know how it is. [04:56:28.216 – 04:56:36.556] Sometimes you're dealing with people who don't have a lot of social skills, you know, who, who, who don't know how to communicate or something, who don't have a program. [04:56:36.556 – 04:56:41.556] If people don't have something to sort of guide them and steer them, they're lost, you know? [04:56:41.556 – 04:56:42.976] I mean, try to get him to understand that. [04:56:42.976 – 04:56:45.556] But he is so angry. [04:56:45.556 – 04:56:47.896] I tell you, they live in the same little town.

[04:56:47.896 – 04:56:52.656] He went into a restaurant with his wife to have dinner one Sunday. [04:56:52.656 – 04:56:54.556] That, that fellow came in. [04:56:54.556 – 04:56:55.776] He got sick and had to leave. [04:56:55.776 – 04:56:58.556] And we're talking years back. [04:56:58.556 – 04:57:00.536] So he's carrying something. [04:57:00.536 – 04:57:03.836] So I've told him, I said, "Look, man, you've got the program. [04:57:03.836 – 04:57:05.136] You've got to take initiative. [04:57:05.136 – 04:57:06.796] You initiate it. [04:57:06.796 – 04:57:09.756] You call the guy up and say, you know, "I'd… [04:57:09.756 – 04:57:11.696] Can, can we just have a talk?" You know. [04:57:11.696 – 04:57:15.776] And, and let him know how you feel and so not how he feels.

[04:57:15.776 – 04:57:23.196] And, and that's all you gotta do is take the initiative." Probably dealing with a guy who's just deficit in social skill, doesn't know how to do it. [04:57:23.196 – 04:57:23.916] How would you? [04:57:23.916 – 04:57:34.176] And, and I know every time I've done amends, I always remind myself is, that I'm fighting, and like I s- I'm in a sword fight with somebody with no sword. [04:57:34.176 – 04:57:36.696] You know, they've got no, no, no tools. [04:57:36.696 – 04:57:37.436] They got nothing. [04:57:37.436 – 04:57:38.496] So I've got the program. [04:57:38.496 – 04:57:39.996] So I've got the responsibility.

[04:57:39.996 – 04:57:41.716] That's why I take the weight. [04:57:41.716 – 04:57:43.006] Just like with my father. [04:57:43.006 – 04:57:44.016] It was much like that. [04:57:44.016 – 04:57:46.456] I had to, to get over my feeling. [04:57:46.456 – 04:57:47.416] I wasn't there in anger. [04:57:47.416 – 04:57:54.176] I was in there that I wanted to get off my chest what I needed to share with the guy, and then let him respond. [04:57:54.176 – 04:57:55.216] And, and he did. [04:57:55.216 – 04:57:57.596] Uh, we had no animosity. [04:57:57.596 – 04:58:00.776] But if I hadn't taken the initiative, that would've never happened. [04:58:00.776 – 04:58:06.276] And so I, I think sometimes like, like that, that, uh, that you can't wait for the other guy.

[04:58:06.276 – 04:58:10.336] You know, if it's nibbling on me, you know, it's worth dealing with. [04:58:10.336 – 04:58:12.056] Um, but I've… [04:58:12.056 – 04:58:19.816] If you, if anybody gets any ideas on how to deal with that boy, he's, he's, uh, many years sober now. [04:58:19.816 – 04:58:21.656] He's coming up on 14 years sober. [04:58:21.656 – 04:58:25.236] And, uh, I can't get him to budge. [04:58:25.236 – 04:58:29.436] He's a hard-headed North Carolinian, that's what he is. [04:58:29.436 – 04:58:30.416] That's… [04:58:30.416 – 04:58:37.056] But anyway, it's, it's a, it's a bear when, uh, when you got those things internalized and don't deal with them.

[04:58:37.056 – 04:58:38.496] And you look at that. [04:58:38.496 – 04:58:39.776] I mean, this guy's haunted. [04:58:39.776 – 04:58:40.976] And even… [04:58:40.976 – 04:58:44.676] Really can't even be in the same restaurant with the guy without getting sick and leaving. [04:58:44.676 – 04:58:48.636] Uh, anyway, the, uh… [04:58:48.636 – 04:58:49.756] It's one of those tragedies. [04:58:49.756 – 04:58:51.996] You know, my, my, uh… [04:58:51.996 – 04:58:56.156] It's not exactly amends, but it's in, in the, it's in the category of knowing how to deal. [04:58:56.156 – 04:59:01.736] My daughter, when she was 16 years old, got her driver's license. [04:59:01.736 – 04:59:03.816] Her boyfriend came by the house in a car.

[04:59:03.816 – 04:59:06.896] So naturally, anybody with a brand-new driver's license wants to drive. [04:59:06.896 – 04:59:15.236] And so we live in a nice little suburb and, and, um, there was a family moving in down the street a couple- [04:59:15.368 – 04:59:15.728] blocks. [04:59:15.728 – 04:59:20.668] My daughter's driving a car, and one of the, the, they had two little boys. [04:59:20.668 – 04:59:25.768] One of them had been riding a skateboard down a steep driveway into the street. [04:59:25.768 – 04:59:29.278] And some of the neighbors had told them that, "Y'all not to do that. [04:59:29.278 – 04:59:30.228] There's traffic here.

[04:59:30.228 – 04:59:33.888] You guys, it's dangerous." And, uh, but they didn't, they didn't know the community. [04:59:33.888 – 04:59:35.788] They're, they're all caught up in moving and all that. [04:59:35.788 – 04:59:41.488] And so my daughter's coming to the street, and this little boy rides right under her car with a skateboard. [04:59:41.488 – 04:59:46.788] So, so she called. [04:59:46.788 – 04:59:48.128] Naturally, she called. [04:59:48.128 – 04:59:50.168] We told her what had happened. [04:59:50.168 – 05:00:00.228] We went down, and it was obvious that it was a pretty serious deal and, and, uh, so I, I looked it over and I told my wife, said, "Let's take her home and, uh, get,

[05:00:00.228 – 05:00:08.828] get her, get her going." And I went over to the hospital, you know, to, to excuse me, where the little boy had gone. [05:00:08.828 – 05:00:18.988] Well, as you can well imagine, uh, what I felt sitting there, standing there looking at this scene, and I'm thinking, "My God, is this the legacy of my family?" [05:00:18.988 – 05:00:24.808] Sorry about all that barking. [05:00:24.808 – 05:00:35.048] But but I went over and, and a, and a minister came out that I knew, and he said, "The boy didn't make it." And, uh, and, and so I knew,

[05:00:35.048 – 05:00:36.608] knew I had to deal with that. [05:00:36.608 – 05:00:40.008] And so, and my daughter had done nothing wrong. [05:00:40.008 – 05:00:42.148] It was a totally unavoidable thing. [05:00:42.148 – 05:00:52.468] And, uh, in fact, the neighbors sent flowers to my daughter and, uh, just, just one of those tragic [05:00:52.468 – 05:00:53.238] things that happens. [05:00:53.238 – 05:00:56.088] But my daughter went into… [05:00:56.088 – 05:00:57.808] Darn. [05:00:57.808 – 05:01:01.628] I don't know if it was shock or what, but she was just devastated. [05:01:01.628 – 05:01:11.628] And I, I recognized that position and I said, "We're gonna have to go see that family." And

[05:01:11.628 – 05:01:13.068] of course you know what she said. [05:01:13.068 – 05:01:14.948] "No, I couldn't do that. [05:01:14.948 – 05:01:22.048] I couldn't do it." I called the father of the boy who was killed, and I said, uh, "I'm, I'm so sorry about what happened. [05:01:22.048 – 05:01:28.288] I'm sorry your son's dead, but I've got a daughter that's I have a daughter that's still alive. [05:01:28.288 – 05:01:30.108] Darn. [05:01:30.108 – 05:01:36.948] That's still alive, and, uh, she's gotta get, gotta get through this." Darn it. [05:01:36.948 – 05:01:44.348] And so what I asked was, "Would it be okay if we come for the visitation?" You know, when the family's coming in.

[05:01:44.348 – 05:01:48.408] And, uh, because she's got to, to deal with this. [05:01:48.408 – 05:01:50.988] He, he thought about it. [05:01:50.988 – 05:01:56.988] You know, the first thing when something like that happens, you're thinking maybe somebody's afraid of an insurance claim or something, that you won't, whatever. [05:01:56.988 – 05:01:59.608] And, uh, and so he was hesitant. [05:01:59.608 – 05:02:00.848] I didn't say anything. [05:02:00.848 – 05:02:01.438] I let him think. [05:02:01.438 – 05:02:03.288] And he said, "It'd be okay. [05:02:03.288 – 05:02:05.137] Come on." He understood. [05:02:05.137 – 05:02:15.088] Well, I can't say that, that, that my daughter was thrilled and delighted by any stretch of the imagination.

[05:02:15.088 – 05:02:16.108] But she… [05:02:16.108 – 05:02:22.068] I, I said, "Come on, you have got to go." And so I took her, and we were fortunate. [05:02:22.068 – 05:02:26.728] But what I'm talking about is that initiative, that sometimes you've got to walk through that pain. [05:02:26.728 – 05:02:30.888] And so we went in. [05:02:30.888 – 05:02:34.028] The mother was in no shape to communicate at all. [05:02:34.028 – 05:02:39.188] The father came out and, and, and so introducing my daughter. [05:02:39.188 – 05:02:48.248] He was sensible enough and sensitive enough that he took my daughter off to a room to talk with.

[05:02:48.248 – 05:02:56.088] Talked with her for a good while. [05:02:56.088 – 05:02:58.488] Enormously important. [05:02:58.488 – 05:02:59.988] Enormously important. [05:02:59.988 – 05:03:10.168] Because that girl would have been in hiding from now on if she, if she, if, if, if, if [05:03:10.168 – 05:03:12.988] I hadn't understood what had to be done. [05:03:12.988 – 05:03:18.048] It's amazing how the lessons become that valuable in so many ways. [05:03:18.048 – 05:03:19.868] And I knew what had to be done. [05:03:19.868 – 05:03:24.348] And, um, so things worked out. [05:03:24.348 – 05:03:26.408] But I mean, it's just part of, of life, you know? [05:03:26.408 – 05:03:30.568] Those things that tragedies happen and, uh, just the way it is.

[05:03:30.568 – 05:03:38.628] And so, but our program, no matter, it, it gave her what she needed, gave that father what he needed, too. [05:03:38.628 – 05:03:40.128] Because there was nothing there. [05:03:40.128 – 05:03:44.748] This was a tragedy that just just happened. [05:03:44.748 – 05:03:48.228] So you never know what's gonna come out of this amends process. [05:03:48.228 – 05:03:57.628] We all run into it, and it's just a matter of, of having a program and taking the initiative to move in and straighten out those things, you know? [05:03:57.628 – 05:04:01.988] Sometimes tough, but, but always worthwhile.

[05:04:01.988 – 05:04:02.588] Yeah. [05:04:02.588 – 05:04:05.288] So sorry for that. [05:04:05.288 – 05:04:09.208] I, I think when I get emotional, I, my bronchitis gets worse, you know? [05:04:09.208 – 05:04:12.148] So but it's one of those, one of those things. [05:04:12.148 – 05:04:13.708] Anybody else? [05:04:13.708 – 05:04:17.238] Uh, uh, is another shot- An alcoholic. [05:04:17.238 – 05:04:17.298] I'm sorry? [05:04:17.298 – 05:04:19.248] An alcoholic. [05:04:19.248 – 05:04:20.208] I've, I've got that one. [05:04:20.208 – 05:04:21.488] I'm still working on it. [05:04:21.488 – 05:04:22.268] But thanks. [05:04:22.268 – 05:04:23.548] Yeah. [05:04:23.548 – 05:04:24.468] Anybody else? [05:04:24.468 – 05:04:25.788] Yeah. [05:04:25.788 – 05:04:26.348] Uh-huh. [05:04:26.348 – 05:04:29.908] I really like what you were saying, and it's a pleasure to meet you. [05:04:29.908 – 05:04:30.798] Thank you, love. [05:04:30.798 – 05:04:33.858] I'm in Germantown, and I'm an alcoholic.

[05:04:33.858 – 05:04:33.868] Thank you. [05:04:33.868 – 05:04:43.908] I just wanna tell you that when I went to make my amends, as we all know, it's difficult, and then sometimes even surprising, but allow the opportunity, like with [05:04:43.908 – 05:04:54.508] your family, almost the same experience with my family was, "Well, you weren't that bad." No, after I'd been in jail and tried to kill a man and did two years probation, [05:04:54.508 – 05:04:59.008] they were willing to excuse just the fact that I'd lived through all this garbage. [05:04:59.008 – 05:05:09.168] So I thought, well, I'd gone to my anniversary party at a club in Colorado, and my parents had, you know, had early AA there, and I'd even tap

[05:05:09.168 – 05:05:13.668] danced there, never knowing that I was gonna have this disease when I was a child. [05:05:13.668 – 05:05:23.668] So my eighth anniversary, I still had the letter that I wanted to give this police officer who had saved my life when I was trying to kill a man with my [05:05:23.668 – 05:05:24.008] car. [05:05:24.008 – 05:05:34.304] And so I'll never forget, because I'm only four foot nine, and you walk up to the desk sergeant or whomever's on the desk, and I had my little amend letter

[05:05:34.304 – 05:05:35.904] that I'd saved all these years. [05:05:35.904 – 05:05:40.344] It was my final one that I kept, and I just could never really… [05:05:40.344 – 05:05:42.584] I was always mad at him for doing it. [05:05:42.584 – 05:05:45.564] And then through that meeting, it's time to let go. [05:05:45.564 – 05:05:55.734] So I'd carried it long enough, and I went up to the counter and I said, "Well, good evening, officer." I said, uh, "By any chance, is Sergeant Swanee [05:05:55.734 – 05:06:02.464] in?" And he said, "You mean Captain Swanee?" And I, oh, I'd screwed up his drug bust that night.

[05:06:02.464 – 05:06:08.404] He'd had a stakeout, and I was driving in and out in a loop through a shopping center and back out. [05:06:08.404 – 05:06:15.724] So what I appreciated and wanted to thank you for, Tom, is, yeah, I think Drug-a-lo- Drunk-a-logs helped me. [05:06:15.724 – 05:06:20.724] And if I can share this one, that so far today I haven't had a drink. [05:06:20.724 – 05:06:21.174] Yeah. [05:06:21.174 – 05:06:24.844] And I'm now a great-grandma whose great-grandchildren don't know a drunk. [05:06:24.844 – 05:06:25.294] Yeah. [05:06:25.294 – 05:06:26.124] It's pretty cool. [05:06:26.124 – 05:06:26.454] Yeah. [05:06:26.454 – 05:06:28.743] And, uh, really enjoyed this workshop. [05:06:28.743 – 05:06:29.104] Thank you.

[05:06:29.104 – 05:06:29.764] Thank you, love. [05:06:29.764 – 05:06:30.044] Yeah. [05:06:30.044 – 05:06:31.964] Grandmas are sometimes very frisky. [05:06:31.964 – 05:06:33.084] I got, I got ya. [05:06:33.084 – 05:06:34.164] That's, uh… [05:06:34.164 – 05:06:39.104] I, I'm, I'm gonna mention one more that, uh, was, uh, the, the table turned, eh? [05:06:39.104 – 05:06:45.824] The, uh, I had somebody to, to, to do amends with me in the program. [05:06:45.824 – 05:06:51.404] I'd, I'd, uh, it's, it's real- I understood the awkwardness that I'd run into so many times. [05:06:51.404 – 05:06:57.004] A guy– I was in a, I was in some state at, at a conference, and a, a guy…

[05:06:57.004 – 05:07:01.404] I didn't, frankly, I don't pay much attention to it. [05:07:01.404 – 05:07:05.964] My, my wife is in charge of money, so I never have any, and I don't worry about it. [05:07:05.964 – 05:07:07.784] You know, I just give it to her, and she spends it. [05:07:07.784 – 05:07:11.544] And, uh, she gives me a credit card. [05:07:11.544 – 05:07:17.904] But this guy, as I was going back to that state, I didn't know that he hadn't reimbursed me. [05:07:17.904 – 05:07:19.984] I just didn't pay any attention. [05:07:19.984 – 05:07:30.024] And, uh, I, I went back and this guy said, "Can you give me about 10 minutes of your time?" And I said, "Well,

[05:07:30.024 – 05:07:32.824] I'll be happy to." He said, "We've gotta have privacy," you know. [05:07:32.824 – 05:07:36.604] I thought, "What on earth is he doing?" I thought he was gonna tell me he'd run off on his wife or something. [05:07:36.604 – 05:07:36.804] And I… [05:07:36.804 – 05:07:45.784] So we go back there, and he said, "I have to make some amends." And what happened, this guy was in charge of, of handling the money. [05:07:45.784 – 05:07:50.424] He took my reimbursement and held it too long, fell in love with it. [05:07:50.424 – 05:07:52.304] And so he did.

[05:07:52.304 – 05:07:54.364] I guess he just thought he'd take a risk. [05:07:54.364 – 05:07:56.224] He'd seen how dopey I was or something. [05:07:56.224 – 05:07:58.624] I never even thought about it. [05:07:58.624 – 05:08:01.944] And he said, he told me what he'd done. [05:08:01.944 – 05:08:06.924] I said, "Oh my God, man, that's history, and I'm not worried about it. [05:08:06.924 – 05:08:10.683] You know, donate it to something." And, uh, he said, "No, no, no. [05:08:10.683 – 05:08:12.724] I'm here to make amends. [05:08:12.724 – 05:08:14.164] I don't care whether you need it or not. [05:08:14.164 – 05:08:19.403] I'm making amends." And he had that stuff counted out to the penny.

[05:08:19.403 – 05:08:22.984] And cash, including the penny. [05:08:22.984 – 05:08:26.144] And, um, and I thought, boy, oh boy, that's… [05:08:26.144 – 05:08:27.864] Then I understood the other side. [05:08:27.864 – 05:08:32.054] I'd have given him the money to not come at me with it. [05:08:32.054 – 05:08:33.364] You know, just stay away. [05:08:33.364 – 05:08:35.424] We're dear friends today. [05:08:35.424 – 05:08:38.184] Uh, he's still a very active man in service, good member. [05:08:38.184 – 05:08:40.784] That, uh, but he's human, you know. [05:08:40.784 – 05:08:43.944] So you never know what you're gonna, gonna run into here. [05:08:43.944 – 05:08:45.864] Anybody else? [05:08:45.864 – 05:08:47.604] One last shot, and then we'll do…

[05:08:47.604 – 05:08:48.084] Well, wait a minute. [05:08:48.084 – 05:08:48.884] No, it's three o'clock. [05:08:48.884 – 05:08:49.224] We got… [05:08:49.224 – 05:08:50.664] We're not in any big hurry. [05:08:50.664 – 05:08:56.444] Anybody? [05:08:56.444 – 05:09:01.924] I can't get used to Florida time. [05:09:01.924 – 05:09:03.324] One? [05:09:03.324 – 05:09:05.144] I'm gonna quit. [05:09:05.144 – 05:09:11.704] Because I didn't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna get into the 10, 11, or 12, 'cause I like that as a package deal. [05:09:11.704 – 05:09:16.304] And, uh, I think I'm gonna hold that till, till, till in the morning. [05:09:16.304 – 05:09:19.844] And if anybody just, just general comments or, or whatever. [05:09:19.844 – 05:09:23.584] If y'all wanna just chat a bit, that'll, that'll be just perfectly okay.

[05:09:23.584 – 05:09:23.764] Yeah. [05:09:23.764 – 05:09:30.864] You'll never have a better opportunity. [05:09:30.864 – 05:09:32.424] This is a, this is a good… [05:09:32.424 – 05:09:34.944] Yeah. [05:09:34.944 – 05:09:39.424] Say what? [05:09:39.424 – 05:09:45.184] No. [05:09:45.184 – 05:09:45.584] Say what? [05:09:45.584 – 05:09:48.584] I mean, no one's hungry. [05:09:48.584 – 05:09:49.334] There's food. [05:09:49.334 – 05:09:49.624] Oh. [05:09:49.624 – 05:09:53.624] Well, that, that, that's an ever-present thing, isn't it? [05:09:53.624 – 05:09:55.824] Is there, is there still food here? [05:09:58.476 – 05:09:59.456] You going to get some? [05:09:59.456 – 05:10:02.716] Okay. [05:10:02.716 – 05:10:03.396] Uh, yeah. [05:10:03.396 – 05:10:03.876] Huh? [05:10:03.876 – 05:10:05.466] Yeah. [05:10:05.466 – 05:10:12.776] Art, I appreciate what you said about, uh, sponsorship today because I had asked you specifically to address that. [05:10:12.776 – 05:10:13.686] Mm-hmm. [05:10:13.686 – 05:10:15.276] Oh yeah, that's right. [05:10:15.276 – 05:10:15.875] There we are.

[05:10:15.875 – 05:10:16.296] Yeah, yeah. [05:10:16.296 – 05:10:19.516] Uh, yeah. [05:10:19.516 – 05:10:21.016] Mary Ellen, alcoholic. [05:10:21.016 – 05:10:21.656] Hey, Mary. [05:10:21.656 – 05:10:24.486] I appreciate what you said about sponsorship today. [05:10:24.486 – 05:10:24.486] Yeah. [05:10:24.486 – 05:10:31.616] Because, um, I had asked you to, to look at it a little bit for us and, and, uh, everything. [05:10:31.616 – 05:10:36.496] And, uh, I'm from the Clarkston Group up in Atlanta. [05:10:36.496 – 05:10:43.216] And, uh, I'm a sponsor like I was taught to be a sponsor by my sponsor. [05:10:43.216 – 05:10:52.066] And I know that in a lot of cases we jump into sponsorship and we don't really understand what we're supposed to be doing.

[05:10:52.066 – 05:11:02.335] Um, my question is, how, other than having sponsorship workshops, [05:11:02.336 – 05:11:12.396] um, when we have sponsorship meetings, we have that tendency to risk that people who don't know how to be sponsors are [05:11:12.396 – 05:11:16.056] going to share poor advice. [05:11:16.056 – 05:11:16.896] Mm-hmm. [05:11:16.896 – 05:11:29.076] How do we, how do we, with s- a lot of years, guide sponsorship for [05:11:29.076 – 05:11:30.636] others- Mm-hmm … [05:11:30.636 – 05:11:34.236] without seeming like we're, um… [05:11:34.236 – 05:11:37.396] You know what I'm trying to say? [05:11:37.396 – 05:11:37.606] Yeah. [05:11:37.606 – 05:11:40.456] Like, we're trying to control the situation or whatever. [05:11:40.456 – 05:11:46.576] I mean, you know, we, we have the resources, but, but we're not getting through.

[05:11:46.576 – 05:11:47.076] Yeah. [05:11:47.076 – 05:11:48.196] How do we do that? [05:11:48.196 – 05:11:51.456] Well, you know, you certainly… [05:11:51.456 – 05:11:54.796] I, I, I don't, I don't have any real pat thing to put out. [05:11:54.796 – 05:11:57.966] I… [05:11:57.966 – 05:12:08.016] Frankly, I think the, the biggest need that we have in Alcoholics Anonymous is, um, is, is strong, purposeful groups, like the home [05:12:08.016 – 05:12:08.316] group. [05:12:08.316 – 05:12:11.376] I, I think that's the most vital thing in all of Alcoholics Anonymous. [05:12:11.376 – 05:12:14.796] Because if you start trying to… [05:12:14.796 – 05:12:20.486] If you'll ponder a question like that, how would you do that in some sort of casual gathering?

[05:12:20.486 – 05:12:23.376] You know, I mean, it would, it would be a foreign language. [05:12:23.376 – 05:12:33.696] Uh, and, uh, and the fact is that for the most part, in our, in, in our country today, that's what our, our, our fellowship [05:12:33.696 – 05:12:36.556] is characterized by, is casual gatherings. [05:12:36.556 – 05:12:41.636] And, uh, if you look at it, it's a, it's a little different, dif- different track. [05:12:41.636 – 05:12:51.766] But if you look at it, it, it not only hurts in terms of, of how to find a good seedbed for sponsorship, that, that I really believe that the home group is,

[05:12:51.766 – 05:12:54.336] is, is what drives Alcoholics, or should. [05:12:54.336 – 05:13:02.456] I, I ju- I ju- I'll just give you a little snapshot of what, what I'm talking about and, and what's a little bit of a concern to me. [05:13:02.456 – 05:13:05.156] In, uh, in, in '55… [05:13:05.156 – 05:13:09.876] Well, you know in '50 the traditions were, were, were, were, w- were written. [05:13:09.876 – 05:13:14.496] They were pr- And they were just introduced at the first International in Cleveland. [05:13:14.496 – 05:13:19.176] And then nothing happened with them till '55 in St. [05:13:19.176 – 05:13:19.676] Louis.

[05:13:19.676 – 05:13:21.796] And in '55 at St. [05:13:21.796 – 05:13:31.796] Louis at the International, Bob was dead, and Bill, not in, not in effect, but in reality, turned [05:13:31.796 – 05:13:33.916] the fellowship over to the membership. [05:13:33.916 – 05:13:34.926] Mm-hmm. [05:13:34.926 – 05:13:38.306] He and Bob had been functioning as the leaders of AA. [05:13:38.306 – 05:13:43.496] They're not, they're not named that, but they were the leaders of AA, and that would've… [05:13:43.496 – 05:13:45.316] That's where the buck stopped, was with them. [05:13:45.316 – 05:13:47.756] There were no general service conference. [05:13:47.756 – 05:13:51.396] It, it was just the office in New York, you know, and a few people gathered there.

[05:13:51.396 – 05:14:01.476] And so what, what he did in '55 was turn the membership, turn the fellowship over to the membership, established the general [05:14:01.476 – 05:14:11.586] service conference, established the, the, the philosophy that the grassroots would drive the fellowship, that, you know, what happened in my home group would be what [05:14:11.586 – 05:14:14.376] would culminate with action at the national level. [05:14:14.376 – 05:14:19.776] Well, that was a great theory, you know, that the grassroots are what drives the fellowship. [05:14:19.776 – 05:14:20.776] A wonderful theory. [05:14:20.776 – 05:14:24.696] But the fact is it's gone pretty badly awry.

[05:14:24.696 – 05:14:29.926] And, and rather than being a, a viable concept, now it's just sort of a, a, a… [05:14:29.926 – 05:14:31.476] It's more of a myth than a fact. [05:14:31.476 – 05:14:35.496] When, when you look across the country, and I get a chance to do that. [05:14:35.496 – 05:14:45.616] You know, just a while back, I was m- I had a, a meeting with, uh, where the chairman of the board of the general service office was there, and I knew he was up to date on the current data.

[05:14:45.616 – 05:14:51.656] And I asked, I said, "Let me tell you what my view is, and then for God's sakes, tell me I'm wrong. [05:14:51.656 – 05:15:01.676] Tell me I'm reading it wrong." And, and I told him, I said, "When we start looking at how our, our group conscience is carried forth, you know, that's [05:15:01.676 – 05:15:05.386] done through our district and our area and stuff like that, and then to the general service conference. [05:15:05.386 – 05:15:15.436] What we get pretty much across the board is about 23% representation, and that makes it a myth, you know, more, more

[05:15:15.436 – 05:15:16.036] than a reality. [05:15:16.036 – 05:15:26.476] You don't have a group conscience, but you got some minority opinion of, of just a few groups that, that show up and a few people that stand up and serve and move forward." And, [05:15:26.476 – 05:15:38.076] uh, so what it leaves us with is that at least 75% of, of, of our gatherings or whatever, if they're registered, just [05:15:38.076 – 05:15:39.175] let it pass by. [05:15:39.175 – 05:15:49.296] And, and so it makes it very difficult to try to even conceive of something that's, that's gonna, th- that, that, that, that, that's gonna have effect around

[05:15:49.296 – 05:15:49.856] the country. [05:15:49.856 – 05:15:54.076] 'Cause you got, you, you, you got things that just don't even resemble AA. [05:15:54.076 – 05:15:55.026] Mm-hmm. [05:15:55.026 – 05:16:01.295] And, um, so I, I think that's the biggest problem we have in, uh, we're dealing with an integrity kind of an issue. [05:16:01.295 – 05:16:08.504] I, I'll tell you one other example that, that goes with that and, and, and why I believe so much, and it's the singleness of purpose. [05:16:08.504 – 05:16:10.864] That, uh, we, uh… [05:16:10.864 – 05:16:13.804] And so, uh, I would… [05:16:13.804 – 05:16:18.264] Now, California has some really good AA, but they got some zany stuff too.

[05:16:18.264 – 05:16:19.584] And, and, and they was… [05:16:19.584 – 05:16:22.024] I, I went to a couple of groups out there. [05:16:22.024 – 05:16:24.084] I swear to God, I thought I was on Noah's Ark. [05:16:24.084 – 05:16:27.164] I mean, there was some of everything you could think of, you know. [05:16:27.164 – 05:16:34.404] And, and we're calling it a group of Alcoholics Anonymous, but, uh, it would've been hard to prove that by the, by the, the flock. [05:16:34.404 – 05:16:39.744] And, and so it, it's, it's, it's a tremendous problem, you know? [05:16:39.744 – 05:16:40.924] And how do we deal with that?

[05:16:40.924 – 05:16:41.864] You know. [05:16:41.864 – 05:16:50.244] I w- I was over to, over to the prison where I, I sponsored a group a, a while back, and there was a guy, and this, this just happened sometime. [05:16:50.244 – 05:17:00.544] They were having elections, and the guy that was chairing, somebody nominated a guy I knew who was the chairman of NA who was visiting [05:17:00.544 – 05:17:01.024] the group. [05:17:01.024 – 05:17:07.164] And, uh, so they started to vote, and I said, "Whoa." Now, you know, I'm a sponsor. [05:17:07.164 – 05:17:08.324] I'm not a visitor.

[05:17:08.324 – 05:17:12.544] I'm a sponsor, and I sponsor a group just like I do an individual. [05:17:12.544 – 05:17:17.624] You know, I'm there to give leadership and, and, and to, uh, call it when I need to. [05:17:17.624 – 05:17:20.664] And I said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. [05:17:20.664 – 05:17:21.804] Hold on here, guys. [05:17:21.804 – 05:17:24.324] You can't elect Mike chairman. [05:17:24.324 – 05:17:28.994] He's not a member." AA meetings are conducted by AA members, you know? [05:17:28.994 – 05:17:34.804] And, uh, I mean, I wasn't violent or yelling or anything like that, but I mean, they, they could hear me.

[05:17:34.804 – 05:17:36.704] There, there, there's no problem with that. [05:17:36.704 – 05:17:41.404] And so I said, "You can't do that." And now I knew that was gonna embarrass Mike. [05:17:41.404 – 05:17:42.344] He's a nice guy. [05:17:42.344 – 05:17:46.684] And I saw him just kinda hang his head and, and, and I, I hated that. [05:17:46.684 – 05:17:51.644] But I'm not gonna watch a principal go down the toilet and not speak up. [05:17:51.644 – 05:17:55.564] And so it got stopped, and then we got, got elected as chairman. [05:17:55.564 – 05:18:01.284] And after the meeting, I went to Mike and apologized for dealing with him publicly, but there was no choice.

[05:18:01.284 – 05:18:11.384] And, uh, when we got through with the meeting, at the end, the chairman said, said, "Tom, a lot of us are really confused about," [05:18:11.384 – 05:18:12.464] you know, what we did at the front. [05:18:12.464 – 05:18:24.504] He said, "A lot of us are really confused about this whole business of, of, of, of singleness of purpose," and said, "Would you elaborate on it?" Well, sometimes brevity [05:18:24.504 – 05:18:26.404] is a friend to me. [05:18:26.404 – 05:18:32.744] And, and if I, if I don't have time to think about it, I'll have to resort to the truth, you know?

[05:18:32.744 – 05:18:35.683] And so I won't have time to, to fix anything up. [05:18:35.683 – 05:18:37.984] And so he had me on the spot, and I thought… [05:18:37.984 – 05:18:46.684] I never had said this to anybody, but, but I, I just sort of, you know, like the promise say we'll intuitively know how to handle situations. [05:18:46.684 – 05:18:46.824] Yeah. [05:18:46.824 – 05:18:48.524] Some truth to that. [05:18:48.524 – 05:18:57.404] And so I, I thought and I said, "You remember, you remember Bill Wilson, who he was?" "Yep." "You remember Dr. [05:18:57.404 – 05:18:57.884] Bob? [05:18:57.884 – 05:19:03.004] Remember?" I said, "You remember the story of how they met at the gatehouse?

[05:19:03.004 – 05:19:12.843] And here's the broken down stockbroker from New York dealing with a, with a, with a, with a, an alcoholic physician. [05:19:12.843 – 05:19:24.284] And when they get through, the physician says to the stockbroker, 'Finally, somebody understands.'" And, [05:19:24.284 – 05:19:35.204] uh, and, and, and what I told the guys, I said, "My belief is what happened that day, the basic tenet of Alcoholics Anonymous was formed, that [05:19:35.204 – 05:19:46.064] absolutely put in stone what it is that we're about." You know, this, this is about one alcoholic finding another and seeing that there was a communication

[05:19:46.064 – 05:19:49.424] and identification like the world had never known. [05:19:49.424 – 05:19:54.144] And so that's what set what we're about, you know. [05:19:54.144 – 05:20:00.064] And, and, and, and I said, you know, that, that, you know, certainly we drift out of shape on that. [05:20:00.064 – 05:20:01.304] We really do. [05:20:01.304 – 05:20:02.804] Singleness of purpose… [05:20:02.804 – 05:20:13.244] When I travel, you know, wherever I go, nearly always, I don't get out of the airport before somebody will bring up something about the groups and meetings [05:20:13.244 – 05:20:14.264] or singleness of purpose. [05:20:14.264 – 05:20:16.844] It's almost always a, a, a, a topic.

[05:20:16.844 – 05:20:23.384] There are vast areas of our country that have totally given up any pretense. [05:20:23.384 – 05:20:25.124] I mean any. [05:20:25.124 – 05:20:28.544] And it's just, just load a boat. [05:20:28.544 – 05:20:32.084] And now I think that's troubling. [05:20:32.084 – 05:20:33.144] That's it. [05:20:33.144 – 05:20:33.464] That's… [05:20:33.464 – 05:20:37.424] I think that's troubling because it's, it's, you know, where do you… [05:20:37.424 – 05:20:37.774] And see- [05:20:38.118 – 05:20:48.118] I- if, and here's what I told guys, and I tell anybody that asks me, that principle, that tenet that was established with Bill and Bob is either [05:20:48.118 – 05:20:49.338] true or it's not. [05:20:49.338 – 05:20:59.928] If it is true that there's a unique value when one alcoholic talks to another from his experience, if there's a unique value,

[05:20:59.928 – 05:21:09.978] then we have an absolute responsibility to make sure the next alcoholic comes in that door gets what was g- given, given, given to, to, to, [05:21:09.978 – 05:21:10.418] to them. [05:21:10.418 – 05:21:13.918] If it isn't true, then it doesn't matter. [05:21:13.918 – 05:21:18.098] It, it is absolutely meaningless if that's not true. [05:21:18.098 – 05:21:20.798] Now, I believe it's true. [05:21:20.798 – 05:21:22.658] Uh, absolutely believe it. [05:21:22.658 – 05:21:29.498] And, uh, I know this is just sort of, sort of a totally unrealistic statement, but it makes a point, I think. [05:21:29.498 – 05:21:35.638] I really think what we need is a worldwide group conscience, because it's a worldwide problem.

[05:21:35.638 – 05:21:44.118] A worldwide group conscience, and put that, like every one of us, I think it's important for every one of us to know where we stand on that issue. [05:21:44.118 – 05:21:47.958] It's either valid or not. [05:21:47.958 – 05:21:53.158] But I think it's very important to know, because we are what forms a group conscience. [05:21:53.158 – 05:21:54.378] You know, that, that's us. [05:21:54.378 – 05:21:55.318] This is our deal. [05:21:55.318 – 05:22:02.278] And, and we either gonna preside over the, the demise of the program or the invigoration of it. [05:22:02.278 – 05:22:05.538] And I don't wanna be in- involved in the demise.

[05:22:05.538 – 05:22:07.918] That, uh, I'm not willing. [05:22:07.918 – 05:22:13.788] That I'm not willing to, uh, forge a new direction. [05:22:13.788 – 05:22:20.078] I'm not willing to move away from that basic principles that, that, that, that set this program up. [05:22:20.078 – 05:22:24.818] And, uh, so I'm not gonna be the guy that starts steering the boat in a do- in a new direction. [05:22:24.818 – 05:22:34.818] And the, um, the, the, the, the, the thing like, the, the thing I was, I, I mentioned earlier about that, uh, the newcomer [05:22:34.818 – 05:22:38.778] meeting in, in, in our group, and why I think groups are so important.

[05:22:38.778 – 05:22:47.058] In 12 years, we have never had one single problem with, with, with a s- with a single supervice issue. [05:22:47.058 – 05:22:57.278] We had two little, little awkward things, because we've got one person in the group, uh, thank God the person didn't, uh, uh, [05:22:57.278 – 05:22:58.178] didn't do it very often. [05:22:58.178 – 05:23:02.158] But we had somebody there that simply didn't know how to talk to people. [05:23:02.158 – 05:23:03.078] You, you know what I'm talking about? [05:23:03.078 – 05:23:07.978] I mean, it don't make a difference if you, if you're giving you a, a commendation, she make you mad.

[05:23:07.978 – 05:23:09.617] I mean, the person will make you mad. [05:23:09.617 – 05:23:12.678] Uh, bragging on you, you get mad. [05:23:12.678 – 05:23:13.988] Get away from me. [05:23:13.988 – 05:23:24.558] And what it was, she was, uh, uh, leading, leading the newcomer meeting with some other people, and she is abrasive. [05:23:24.558 – 05:23:28.258] You know, she's just an abrasive person that, that, that… [05:23:28.258 – 05:23:30.278] And, uh, that's only two times. [05:23:30.278 – 05:23:31.177] Both times is her. [05:23:31.177 – 05:23:33.238] Same person. [05:23:33.238 – 05:23:35.258] She no longer on the committee now. [05:23:35.258 – 05:23:39.628] We got to– we got another job for her, but they, they, they…

[05:23:39.628 – 05:23:47.758] But the point, when you've got a solution right there, like in our group, we never, we never fail to have an open meeting. [05:23:47.758 – 05:23:54.558] We've got closed meetings, but when we assemble on Monday night, we, we break up into three groups. [05:23:54.558 – 05:23:59.558] You got a book-oriented group, a step tradition-oriented group, and then a, a newcomer group. [05:23:59.558 – 05:24:04.158] And automatically, most of your single purpose is, is gonna be with new people. [05:24:04.158 – 05:24:10.078] Because somebody's got to help them understand which is left, which is right, and you, you know, where's this and that.

[05:24:10.078 – 05:24:11.238] Somebody's got to help them. [05:24:11.238 – 05:24:13.758] And so in a newcomer group, we're prepared. [05:24:13.758 – 05:24:14.838] That's why we make it open. [05:24:14.838 – 05:24:19.018] Because we want to be able to sort this out and give people… [05:24:19.018 – 05:24:24.318] We either wanna give them the help that they're looking for or help them find the help that they need. [05:24:24.318 – 05:24:30.238] So we make it of our business to have, have numbers for people in NA or other A's. [05:24:30.238 – 05:24:33.358] And, uh, so you're able to do something, give them a booze rush.

[05:24:33.358 – 05:24:35.788] And we never had, never had a problem. [05:24:35.788 – 05:24:38.677] Now once in a while, we'll have a situation. [05:24:38.677 – 05:24:46.608] Uh, one night a guy came to me and, and he said, "Will you talk to this guy?" And I said, "Who?" And he pointed him out. [05:24:46.608 – 05:24:51.618] Yeah, and this guy over there, obviously he was coming off crack, you know, and his, his rocket was still going all over the place. [05:24:51.618 – 05:24:53.198] And he was just bouncing. [05:24:53.198 – 05:25:02.058] And, uh, I said, "What's the problem?" He said, "I swear to God, I can't get anywhere with him." And I said, "All right, I'll try him." You know, so I went over there to talk to the guy.

[05:25:02.058 – 05:25:03.778] He was a good look- good young guy. [05:25:03.778 – 05:25:05.838] So we, we chatted a little minute. [05:25:05.838 – 05:25:07.038] I saw there's no way. [05:25:07.038 – 05:25:08.798] I had to almost hold him to talk to him. [05:25:08.798 – 05:25:09.858] He's just bouncing, you know. [05:25:09.858 – 05:25:19.968] And I said, and nothing ugly in this, I said, "Come on, let's go outside." And, and we got a little alley out there that's the closest thing to a confidential area we've [05:25:19.968 – 05:25:20.278] got. [05:25:20.278 – 05:25:21.818] So I take him out there. [05:25:21.818 – 05:25:25.528] And so he's– we started talking and, uh, and he said…

[05:25:25.528 – 05:25:29.198] I said, "Are you an alcoholic?" And he said, "Oh, yeah. [05:25:29.198 – 05:25:29.738] Oh, yeah. [05:25:29.738 – 05:25:34.678] Yeah." He said, "I do some other stuff too, but, but yeah, I'm an alcoholic, full-blooded." I said, "All right. [05:25:34.678 – 05:25:35.038] Good. [05:25:35.038 – 05:25:35.878] Right place. [05:25:35.878 – 05:25:36.558] Well, come on in. [05:25:36.558 – 05:25:43.578] We got a newcomer group." And, and he said, "I wanna go where you go." And I haven't got a lead in on him. [05:25:43.578 – 05:25:47.378] He says, "I wanna go where you go." Now, I said, "I'm going to a closed meeting.

[05:25:47.378 – 05:25:51.658] You know, if you're an alcoholic, you're welcome to go on one condition. [05:25:51.658 – 05:25:59.898] Don't say anything." Now, you saying that to somebody coming down off, off, off crack, I mean, you might as well be talking to a gopher. [05:25:59.898 – 05:26:04.878] I mean, uh, that- So I said, "Just don't say anything." "Okay. [05:26:04.878 – 05:26:05.098] Okay. [05:26:05.098 – 05:26:05.778] I got, I got you. [05:26:05.778 – 05:26:08.098] I got it." Went in, sat him down beside me. [05:26:08.098 – 05:26:10.678] The guy picked up the book that was leading to me. [05:26:10.678 – 05:26:14.538] He said, "You want me to read?" I said, "No, he doesn't want you to read.

[05:26:14.538 – 05:26:18.238] He wants you to sit here and listen." "Okay. [05:26:18.238 – 05:26:18.498] Okay. [05:26:18.498 – 05:26:18.778] Okay. [05:26:18.778 – 05:26:25.058] I've got you." Guy read a little something, and the guy started to comment. [05:26:25.058 – 05:26:26.218] I said, "No. [05:26:26.218 – 05:26:27.618] Shut up. [05:26:27.618 – 05:26:31.298] Sit right here." Well, I had to spend the whole meeting holding that guy. [05:26:31.298 – 05:26:33.278] So now that's not a problem. [05:26:33.278 – 05:26:35.298] You know, we had a good time. [05:26:35.298 – 05:26:38.398] You know, we, we, we weren't, we weren't, you know, no rough stuff. [05:26:38.398 – 05:26:45.838] And we, we, we were just dealing with a, a, a incendiary situation and, and, you know, and then we helped the guy get, get where he needed to go.

[05:26:45.838 – 05:26:55.849] But if you don't, if you try to do that in just a sort of a casual gathering, what normally happens is people will try to solve it [05:26:55.850 – 05:26:56.430] publicly. [05:26:56.430 – 05:27:03.510] And any time you solve it publicly, there's gonna be at least one loser, and usually two. [05:27:03.510 – 05:27:09.010] And you're gonna wind up with people that were angry and embarrassed, and that's not necessary. [05:27:09.010 – 05:27:12.410] I mean, this is not the Jerry Springer Show, for God sakes. [05:27:12.410 – 05:27:18.770] This is Alcoholics Anonymous, and we don't wanna be somebody that's into this kind of junk of just pushing people around and all that.

[05:27:18.770 – 05:27:23.710] You know, what, what we wanna do is just help them find, if they're in the wrong place, help them find the mother ship. [05:27:23.710 – 05:27:26.210] And, and, and so I mean, that's the least we can do. [05:27:26.210 – 05:27:29.490] But that goes to a group. [05:27:29.490 – 05:27:39.530] You know, if you don't have a group y-where you've got responsiveness to this kind of thing, and you just try to expect a gaggle of people to instinctively do the right thing, it won't [05:27:39.530 – 05:27:39.990] happen. [05:27:39.990 – 05:27:42.490] And so you wind up with this kind of junk.

[05:27:42.490 – 05:27:45.890] So I, it's a, it's a very troubling kind of a thing. [05:27:45.890 – 05:27:48.350] And, and it's the same thing with, with sponsorship. [05:27:48.350 – 05:27:54.750] It, it, it, to me, the reason I say groups are so vitally important is where these kind of things happen. [05:27:54.750 – 05:27:57.170] And in casual gatherings you won't. [05:27:57.170 – 05:27:59.270] Give you one other example. [05:27:59.270 – 05:28:00.170] I was, I was in a… [05:28:00.170 – 05:28:09.870] Somebody asked me to do a, I think a traditions workshop at a place that's a, it's a, it's a club that's, uh, that's a hangout really is what it is.

[05:28:09.870 – 05:28:12.150] And I was familiar with it somewhat. [05:28:12.150 – 05:28:16.860] And, and I said, "Is that the only meeting place you got?" And they said, "Yeah, it is. [05:28:16.860 – 05:28:24.350] We've looked everywhere." I said, "No, fi-find another place because that's not fair to the people belonging to the club to go in there and take a workshop in the middle of their hangout. [05:28:24.350 – 05:28:29.470] It's not right." And so they c- finally they, they said, "No, we just can't find a place." I said, "All right.

[05:28:29.470 – 05:28:33.190] I'm gonna come." But, uh, sure enough, it's just what I said. [05:28:33.190 – 05:28:39.590] I was, I was embarrassed that we're in there, uh, invading people's territory trying to impose a program when all they wanna do is hang out. [05:28:39.590 – 05:28:45.330] So we got through it, and, and I said, "Well, uh, glad we did it, but we won't do it anymore now. [05:28:45.330 – 05:28:49.170] They won't be doing this." And, um, I don't care if you hang up a bedsheet. [05:28:49.170 – 05:28:53.450] You're gonna have to have a petition or get you another soldier because I'm not coming.

[05:28:53.450 – 05:28:57.190] Uh, so you can't do much in a, in a setting like that. [05:28:57.190 – 05:28:57.530] You know? [05:28:57.530 – 05:28:58.790] It's a pointless thing. [05:28:58.790 – 05:29:01.670] It's just like having a, a business meeting at a football game. [05:29:01.670 – 05:29:03.610] You know, it, nothing gonna happen. [05:29:03.610 – 05:29:14.100] So that-that's why my, my, my, my money, the biggest need we have in Alcoholics Anonymous is strong, well-ordered [05:29:14.100 – 05:29:17.800] groups that operate by principles and hopefully three legacies. [05:29:17.800 – 05:29:21.450] That, that to me is the most vital need in the program. [05:29:21.450 – 05:29:23.170] Yeah. [05:29:23.170 – 05:29:23.970] Anybody else?

[05:29:23.970 – 05:29:27.510] Now, I've ran long here, uh, uh, a, a, a, a, a bit on that. [05:29:27.510 – 05:29:28.230] Anybody else? [05:29:28.230 – 05:29:32.230] Concerns, notions, questions, comments? [05:29:32.230 – 05:29:35.540] Well, wait a minute. [05:29:35.540 – 05:29:36.690] Gotta get old Mike over here. [05:29:36.690 – 05:29:39.900] There you go. [05:29:39.900 – 05:29:42.810] Whoops. [05:29:42.810 – 05:29:46.270] Hi, I'm Lynn. [05:29:46.270 – 05:29:47.190] I'm an alcoholic. [05:29:47.190 – 05:29:47.950] Hi. [05:29:47.950 – 05:29:58.120] And I was curious what your take on, um, [05:29:58.120 – 05:30:00.270] like the spirit of rotation. [05:30:00.270 – 05:30:02.830] Hmm. [05:30:02.830 – 05:30:12.870] I personally, I've, um, been involved in service work at times, and, um, [05:30:12.870 – 05:30:15.970] never know what I'm doing until it's done. [05:30:15.970 – 05:30:26.030] And, um, and recently I haven't been involved in as far as AA service work, um, other than showing up and

[05:30:26.030 – 05:30:30.090] having my hand out, um, and sponsorship a little bit that way. [05:30:30.090 – 05:30:39.310] But, um, that I, I was just kind of wondering what your take on, on it was as far as- Well- … [05:30:39.310 – 05:30:40.410] not knowing what you're doing. [05:30:40.410 – 05:30:43.050] I, I tell you what, what my experience is. [05:30:43.050 – 05:30:50.050] I, I believe rotation's important at, at where the spotlight hits. [05:30:50.050 – 05:30:56.150] You know, that, you know, the, the rotation needs to occur at whoever's running the s- show. [05:30:56.150 – 05:30:59.010] You know, the, the prominent and visible positions.

[05:30:59.010 – 05:31:04.810] Like I'm in the corrections committee, and, and corrections people don't rotate. [05:31:04.810 – 05:31:06.310] We don't go anywhere. [05:31:06.310 – 05:31:09.210] The people that do that just keep on doing it. [05:31:09.210 – 05:31:18.960] And, uh, so rotation in the trenches, you know, that, I, I think is just a fallacy and, and a mistake really to- [05:31:19.226 – 05:31:22.826] Uh, the, the, the people are doing service, and it's rewarding to them. [05:31:22.826 – 05:31:26.006] Just like me, I'll be doing corrections stuff till I die. [05:31:26.006 – 05:31:31.226] Uh, it's a basic commitment, you know, naturally, and well, not naturally, but it is.

[05:31:31.226 – 05:31:34.606] So i- in the trenches, I don't worry about it. [05:31:34.606 – 05:31:40.806] You know, it's, it's in the, the rotating leadership is, is, is what's important. [05:31:40.806 – 05:31:51.726] It, it, it has some downside to it because you do get an awful lot of herky-jerky stuff where you'll get somebody, and, uh, you know, like, [05:31:51.726 – 05:32:01.826] I, I won't get too involved with this, but I ca- It w- for while they're in corrections, uh, like we, we, we started outside the service structure. [05:32:01.826 – 05:32:05.925] Then we went into the s- service structure because we wanted to be in the tent.

[05:32:05.925 – 05:32:09.086] And then we came close to backing out. [05:32:09.086 – 05:32:19.686] Be- because what we were set up in trying to run corrections through a district was every two years, we had a new leader coming in somewhere, and about the time you could teach them to spell AA, [05:32:19.686 – 05:32:20.726] they were gone, you know. [05:32:20.726 – 05:32:22.486] And, and so it just… [05:32:22.486 – 05:32:30.746] it was just a constant kind of turnover thing, and, uh, so, so I'm not too concerned at the work level. [05:32:30.746 – 05:32:35.626] You know, I, I don't l- I don't really want to see rotation there unless people get tired of it.

[05:32:35.626 – 05:32:37.606] You know, and then they, then they can rotate when they're ready. [05:32:37.606 – 05:32:42.046] Uh, but, but rotating on a regular basis to me just, just doesn't, doesn't fly. [05:32:42.046 – 05:32:42.906] It… [05:32:42.906 – 05:32:53.306] What, what we gotta s- gotta protect ourselves from is letting somebody get highly visible and, and, and, uh, [05:32:53.306 – 05:32:58.746] uh, you know, sort of have, kind of get to be a star or a big ego type of thing or whatever. [05:32:58.746 – 05:33:01.146] I think that's what the, the rotation… [05:33:01.146 – 05:33:04.526] And it's a good theory.

[05:33:04.526 – 05:33:06.036] It's a good theory. [05:33:06.036 – 05:33:14.266] But in reality, I think we have to make a real distinction between the level where the work is and the, and the leadership, uh, level. [05:33:14.266 – 05:33:18.726] I, uh, uh, it's not much of a take, but that's, that's, that's, that's where I am. [05:33:18.726 – 05:33:20.206] I, uh… [05:33:20.206 – 05:33:22.576] Same way with hospitals too. [05:33:22.576 – 05:33:25.846] We, we don't tend to get a lot of ro- rotation with our hospitals and rehab. [05:33:25.846 – 05:33:30.146] You know, they, uh, we got a crew that's been doing it forever, plan to keep on doing it.

[05:33:30.146 – 05:33:36.096] So at the work level, but at the, at the other levels is where the, where, where the problem comes in. [05:33:36.096 – 05:33:46.106] And we seriously considered pulling out of the, back out of the service structure just because of the, the, you know, sort [05:33:46.106 – 05:33:48.386] of bureaucratic feel to that, you know. [05:33:48.386 – 05:33:54.926] But we've decided to stay because we wanna work inside the tent and not get out into the rocks. [05:33:54.926 – 05:33:55.526] We want… [05:33:55.526 – 05:33:56.906] It's our, it's our structure. [05:33:56.906 – 05:33:59.726] And so we wanna, we wanna take our place in that.

[05:33:59.726 – 05:34:02.146] But I tell you, it's testy sometimes. [05:34:02.146 – 05:34:05.626] It'll, it'll take you to the wall, I t- for sure. [05:34:05.626 – 05:34:07.026] Yeah. [05:34:07.026 – 05:34:07.386] Yeah. [05:34:07.386 – 05:34:08.566] Hmm. [05:34:08.566 – 05:34:12.926] I'm Woody Alcohol. [05:34:12.926 – 05:34:13.526] Hey, Woody. [05:34:13.526 – 05:34:16.346] Um, couple of things. [05:34:16.346 – 05:34:26.546] One, I noticed that when we get out of the singleness of purpose, many of the old-timers [05:34:26.546 – 05:34:27.786] just kind of drift off. [05:34:27.786 – 05:34:31.706] They're not willing to get into the controversy. [05:34:31.706 – 05:34:41.806] And you wind up with groups, meetings, and so forth that as [05:34:41.806 – 05:34:50.586] the, the old-timers, if you will, the founders and so forth, they all drift off.

[05:34:50.586 – 05:34:55.096] They'll not get into the controversy and say, "Here, take it over." Mm-hmm. [05:34:55.096 – 05:34:55.096] Mm-hmm. [05:34:55.096 – 05:35:04.986] The other that I've, I've questioned in a couple of groups is the value, and the… [05:35:04.986 – 05:35:11.386] my question was: when, uh, when have you had the last group inventory? [05:35:11.386 – 05:35:12.676] Mm-hmm. [05:35:12.676 – 05:35:13.706] Mm-hmm. [05:35:13.706 – 05:35:18.906] And I was talking to a group that had been established for 23 years. [05:35:18.906 – 05:35:29.476] The response was- Was that- "I cannot remember us ever having a group inventory." Yeah. [05:35:29.476 – 05:35:29.496] Mm-hmm. [05:35:29.496 – 05:35:29.886] How… [05:35:29.886 – 05:35:33.286] Can you respond to those two areas?

[05:35:33.286 – 05:35:34.666] Yeah. [05:35:34.666 – 05:35:40.826] That, um, I believe, uh, I'm an old-timer. [05:35:40.826 – 05:35:42.646] I, I finally have to admit that. [05:35:42.646 – 05:35:51.066] And, uh, I was on a panel a, a while back in, uh, somewhere up, up north, and it was old folks panel. [05:35:51.066 – 05:35:53.306] The four of us, and I'm the last guy. [05:35:53.306 – 05:35:59.526] A question came up about jumping newcomers, and a very, very legitimate concern. [05:35:59.526 – 05:36:09.555] A lady asked the question, you know, "How on earth can you p- can you keep people from taking advantage of y- y- of newcomers that, that, that, that haven't quite got steady on their feet, and

[05:36:09.555 – 05:36:15.726] you got some vulture jumping them before they can even get in the door?" And, uh, so I, I… [05:36:15.726 – 05:36:18.086] My guys, I was the last guy. [05:36:18.086 – 05:36:25.386] Y- y- you know, I'm no hero, but, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm an old-timer, but that doesn't mean I'm an old dude who's used up. [05:36:25.386 – 05:36:27.146] You know, I'm still in the battle. [05:36:27.146 – 05:36:37.386] So the, the guys, the three guys ahead of me, all three copped out, and all of them said, "Well, we need to get newer people to, to handle

[05:36:37.386 – 05:36:40.906] this and, and to…" Well, I had to make a decision. [05:36:40.906 – 05:36:45.276] I'm either gonna sing the chorus of the old goats- … [05:36:45.276 – 05:36:49.026] or I'm gonna say what I think, you know, and I, uh, I opted for the latter. [05:36:49.026 – 05:36:59.305] And I said, "I, I really think the old-timer is the right person to go to because who else has got more experience [05:36:59.306 – 05:37:08.986] or, or more wisdom about this or more experiences at, at, of dealing with it than the guys that have been there forever?" And so I think we're very appropriate people.

[05:37:08.986 – 05:37:14.586] Plus, I mean, who's gonna beat up a 76-year-old cripple like me? [05:37:14.586 – 05:37:16.746] I mean, my God, come on, man. [05:37:16.746 – 05:37:17.646] It's safe for me. [05:37:17.646 – 05:37:19.746] Uh, most people say, "Oh, don't hurt him. [05:37:19.746 – 05:37:20.746] He's helpless," you know? [05:37:20.746 – 05:37:31.174] So, but- But, I mean, it, it just, it just, it, this thing of disengaging i- is, is, is something I don't understand. [05:37:31.174 – 05:37:32.474] I surely don't relate to it. [05:37:32.474 – 05:37:39.434] And so, so I told him I was, "By all means." And, uh, and then we just talked about, uh, uh, you know, a few things that can be done.

[05:37:39.434 – 05:37:44.294] But my God, if, if old-timers just back off- Yeah … [05:37:44.294 – 05:37:50.154] that's, that, anyway, it, it, it's surely not me, and I, I couldn't disagree more. [05:37:50.154 – 05:37:55.014] Because if you don't get the wisdom from the experience, where does it go? [05:37:55.014 – 05:38:03.014] And so I think it's very, very important to, to get old-timers to let them know that they're needed and, and, and that what they input's vital. [05:38:03.014 – 05:38:08.534] Uh, and sometimes, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a little bit awkward being an old-timer, that, uh…

[05:38:08.534 – 05:38:15.274] Like, I have to be, I have to be careful because I'm not only old, but I'm extremely active. [05:38:15.274 – 05:38:23.054] And, um, and so if I don't watch it, I'll dominate a thing without intending to. [05:38:23.054 – 05:38:28.634] And, and so I have to just be mindful of that and just sort of gauge that, uh, you don't… [05:38:28.634 – 05:38:32.154] It just, I mean, how do you argue with some guy with 52 years? [05:38:32.154 – 05:38:34.334] It's kinda hard to do, you know? [05:38:34.334 – 05:38:34.864] Yeah. [05:38:34.864 – 05:38:40.174] I mean, even though you may be right, you always feel like you're challenging Moses or something, you know?

[05:38:40.174 – 05:38:47.194] And so anyway, that, I, I, I truly believe that that's, that that's just where you ought to go. [05:38:47.194 – 05:38:48.834] My group believes that. [05:38:48.834 – 05:38:50.434] I guarantee you my group believes it. [05:38:50.434 – 05:38:52.914] They'll use the old man in a heartbeat. [05:38:52.914 – 05:38:57.674] And s- s- we, we, we had a guy that, uh, just a couple little quick example. [05:38:57.674 – 05:39:00.894] We had a guy that had Tourette's, uh, t- Tourette syndrome. [05:39:00.894 – 05:39:02.414] I didn't know what it was. [05:39:02.414 – 05:39:05.614] And, uh, this guy taught me what it was.

[05:39:05.614 – 05:39:08.694] And j- And he had a, a strange pattern. [05:39:08.694 – 05:39:11.874] He'd come in and he'd sit at the closest chair to the podium. [05:39:11.874 – 05:39:21.794] And if you know anything about Tourette's, you, you know anything about Tourette's, people just let out awful yowls and stuff, just, uh. [05:39:21.794 – 05:39:25.734] Well, sometimes the speaker come in, I forget to tell him. [05:39:25.734 – 05:39:30.794] And, uh, you were speaking along, and all once the guy, "Ya-hoo," and he comes up. [05:39:30.794 – 05:39:33.633] Well, you kinda forget where you were, you know?

[05:39:33.633 – 05:39:40.134] And so they, uh, we decided that we had to do something in the common welfare. [05:39:40.134 – 05:39:41.074] We've gotta do something. [05:39:41.074 – 05:39:45.654] So they asked me and, uh, uh, and a guy I sponsored to, to handle it. [05:39:45.654 – 05:39:49.914] And it's amazing, you know, how God will do for you what you can't do for yourself. [05:39:49.914 – 05:39:52.574] We set up how we were gonna deal with him. [05:39:52.574 – 05:39:54.763] And, and this was not a, a, a… [05:39:54.763 – 05:39:55.594] He didn't intend that. [05:39:55.594 – 05:40:03.674] I watched that man watched him agonize trying to control that.

[05:40:03.674 – 05:40:07.574] It's apparently something you can't control. [05:40:07.574 – 05:40:11.854] And so we'd made up our mind what we were gonna do and h- what our strategy was. [05:40:11.854 – 05:40:21.974] We weren't gonna say, "Don't come here." We were gonna strategically locate him so the ya- yowl would not be so intrusive, and then let him holler, you know, and, and be more [05:40:21.974 – 05:40:23.674] diligent about warning people. [05:40:23.674 – 05:40:26.674] Well, he moved the next week. [05:40:26.674 – 05:40:29.934] I said, "Thank you, boss man. [05:40:29.934 – 05:40:31.854] I really appreciate it," 'cause I didn't like that.

[05:40:31.854 – 05:40:35.594] But that was natural to go to some seasoned veterans. [05:40:35.594 – 05:40:40.574] You, you, you don't wanna turn a rookie loose on that because it is delicate and sensitive. [05:40:40.574 – 05:40:42.894] Uh, the, uh… [05:40:42.894 – 05:40:50.113] There was, there was one other one I wanted to mention that where the old folks come in. [05:40:50.113 – 05:40:56.914] Uh, uh, I had a deal. [05:40:56.914 – 05:41:01.454] I told somebody at the break that I volunteered doing this one. [05:41:01.454 – 05:41:11.664] But had a guy that, uh, I'd known for many, many years, and, uh, he was sober and, and he still was a little edgy and ju-

[05:41:11.664 – 05:41:16.494] just sort of, sort of wasn't quite i- in the spirit of things. [05:41:16.494 – 05:41:19.874] And we were sitting in a, in a s- a step meeting. [05:41:19.874 – 05:41:25.574] And for no real reason, he lapsed into some of the worst strict, street language you've ever heard. [05:41:25.574 – 05:41:33.074] And, and we had some, we had some ladies in there that were, th- they probably couldn't even remember when they were grandmothers, they were so old. [05:41:33.074 – 05:41:37.173] But I mean, good God, man, uh, what, what is that?

[05:41:37.173 – 05:41:41.814] And so I didn't say anything during the meeting, uh, but I didn't forget either. [05:41:41.814 – 05:41:51.914] So when the meeting broke, I went into the, the room where we hang out, and I saw him headed for the door, and I said, "Hey, hey, hey, hold on." And so I went over there [05:41:51.914 – 05:41:56.954] and he said, "I knew you were gonna catch me." He knew I was coming. [05:41:56.954 – 05:41:58.494] And I told him I'd… [05:41:58.494 – 05:42:00.314] And, and now he would listen- [05:42:00.414 – 05:42:00.874] To me.

[05:42:00.874 – 05:42:07.204] Now, if somebody that about his, his vintage were to come up there, that'd been a, been a big brouha and stuff, yeah. [05:42:07.204 – 05:42:17.424] So I went over and I, and I, and I said, uh, "You know, you made some really good contributions in that meeting, then you negated any value with that totally unnecessary, [05:42:17.424 – 05:42:21.054] inappropriate junk." And he said, "I know it. [05:42:21.054 – 05:42:23.274] I know it." He said, "I just got caught up. [05:42:23.274 – 05:42:29.854] I didn't mean to do that." And I'll bet you that fella thanked me 25 times.

[05:42:29.854 – 05:42:38.734] Every time I'd see him, he'd say, "You'll never know how much I appreciate that." Now, he didn't appreciate when it was going on , but he thought about it later, and he did truly appreciate it. [05:42:38.734 – 05:42:39.654] And that… [05:42:39.654 – 05:42:44.654] Some- sometimes the old, uh, older member is the most appropriate person to do something. [05:42:44.654 – 05:42:52.634] And, and so that, that's, uh, that's what I, what I hope that we can get going around because an awful lot of people just die on the vine.

[05:42:52.634 – 05:42:56.744] And, and they, they wind up feeling useless because they're not doing anything. [05:42:56.744 – 05:43:01.194] And then they wind up watching television instead of, instead of being active in AA. [05:43:01.194 – 05:43:03.474] And so it, it just happens. [05:43:03.474 – 05:43:10.594] And it- it's, it's sad because we just lose so much when, uh, when we let those people go. [05:43:10.594 – 05:43:18.314] Uh, we've been trying to trigger a little thing of interviewing old-timers that we know are, are, uh… [05:43:18.314 – 05:43:21.254] Well, you know, getting about ready for plucking. [05:43:21.254 – 05:43:27.374] Then, so we- we'll do that and, uh, and it's such a rich legacy, eh?

[05:43:27.374 – 05:43:33.714] Yeah, we- we've got the story of the guy that started the first prison group in North Carolina. [05:43:33.714 – 05:43:37.574] And, uh, I've, I sat, uh, I sat in. [05:43:37.574 – 05:43:43.494] Uh, I took him over to the warden of the penitentiary and, and had him interviewed there. [05:43:43.494 – 05:43:53.734] And, uh, this guy, he told that story that's, that goes back to the old days where he had an apartment that just kinda overlooked over into that prison [05:43:53.734 – 05:43:54.254] yard. [05:43:54.254 – 05:44:02.474] And he said he's sitting there one day, fairly new and exuberant, and he said, "You know, I bet you there's some drunks over there." And, uh, it was a good bet.

[05:44:02.474 – 05:44:07.254] So he went over and he told the guy, he said, "I think there's some drunks in here. [05:44:07.254 – 05:44:08.054] I'm in AA. [05:44:08.054 – 05:44:15.594] I'd love to start a meeting." And, uh, the warden just so happened was the right kinda guy, and he said, "Well, shoot. [05:44:15.594 – 05:44:19.354] Let's do it." They started a meeting in 1952. [05:44:19.354 – 05:44:21.734] That was the first one in, in the state of North Carolina. [05:44:21.734 – 05:44:29.604] And one of the guys that attended that first meeting died sober in my hometown.

[05:44:29.604 – 05:44:30.304] Wow. [05:44:30.304 – 05:44:31.664] He didn't live six blocks from me. [05:44:31.664 – 05:44:36.424] And but he, uh, uh, in that first meeting, and this guy caught it, and I knew him well. [05:44:36.424 – 05:44:42.634] But what a wonderful story, eh, of how that happened, and now there's AA in 80 prisons in my state. [05:44:42.634 – 05:44:45.494] And see, that wouldn't happen without that kinda thing. [05:44:45.494 – 05:44:51.294] Somebody's gotta make the ball roll, so I think there's a rich legacy in that thing, and that's the kinda stuff we wanna capture.

[05:44:51.294 – 05:44:53.594] Of people who really know first. [05:44:53.594 – 05:44:56.874] You know, I hate to tell you this, but somebody's already interviewed me. [05:44:56.874 – 05:45:00.574] I be- they know something I don't know, I think. [05:45:00.574 – 05:45:00.994] That's, uh… [05:45:00.994 – 05:45:05.254] Yeah, I had that brain aneurysm and everybody thought I was done. [05:45:05.254 – 05:45:12.854] And, and so they recorded me big time and Just pass the time. [05:45:12.854 – 05:45:15.364] You know. [05:45:15.364 – 05:45:15.914] All right. [05:45:15.914 – 05:45:16.314] Okay. [05:45:16.314 – 05:45:17.294] I'll try that, Andrew. [05:45:17.294 – 05:45:18.894] Yeah. [05:45:18.894 – 05:45:20.514] But it is, it is, it is good. [05:45:20.514 – 05:45:21.634] Those are good questions. [05:45:21.634 – 05:45:23.314] I'm glad you, glad you mentioned that one.

[05:45:23.314 – 05:45:25.654] Anybody else? [05:45:25.654 – 05:45:29.374] We getting, getting ready to have to go eat and stuff like that? [05:45:29.374 – 05:45:32.994] And one thing you gonna do is eat. [05:45:32.994 – 05:45:34.934] Now, that's for doggone sure. [05:45:34.934 – 05:45:36.434] That man's got it on his mind. [05:45:36.434 – 05:45:41.374] Turn that on. [05:45:41.374 – 05:45:47.634] Are we on? [05:45:47.634 – 05:45:50.234] Hello. [05:45:50.234 – 05:45:50.664] Yes. [05:45:50.664 – 05:45:50.974] Yeah. [05:45:50.974 – 05:45:51.344] There you go. [05:45:51.344 – 05:45:52.634] There, you got it. [05:45:52.634 – 05:45:56.734] Just I just wanted to, to draw a distinction because I heard two things going on. [05:45:56.734 – 05:45:58.994] Who are you? [05:45:58.994 – 05:46:03.354] I've got a friend who says that you only do that once in a meeting, and I've been here all day.

[05:46:03.354 – 05:46:04.214] I'm an alcoholic. [05:46:04.214 – 05:46:04.244] Yeah. [05:46:04.244 – 05:46:05.294] My name's Andrew Wilson. [05:46:05.294 – 05:46:06.714] Yeah. [05:46:06.714 – 05:46:06.724] Yeah. [05:46:06.724 – 05:46:17.974] Um, rotation's a critical principle for us, and, and we don't really need to practice it in the trenches because [05:46:17.974 – 05:46:22.274] we're not carrying parliamentary responsibility in the trenches. [05:46:22.274 – 05:46:23.334] We're just carrying a message. [05:46:23.334 – 05:46:29.634] Although rotation in those environments is ideal, especially for the guys who, and the gals who can't get out to get to a meeting. [05:46:29.634 – 05:46:35.454] So, you know, when we're going in lockups, it's important for us to try to get other people in there, but we can do that without changing hats.

[05:46:35.454 – 05:46:44.554] But we have roles for elder statesmen, which is, like, discussed in the service manual a lot, which don't require a parliamentary role. [05:46:44.554 – 05:46:54.554] And we need those people who aren't necessarily at the moment wearing a hat to be there to diffuse [05:46:54.554 – 05:46:57.354] those controversies, to be there to, to, to be… [05:46:57.354 – 05:47:02.994] I think, you know, some of our, our people in parliamentary positions need those folks worse than anybody else. [05:47:02.994 – 05:47:03.294] Mm-hmm. [05:47:03.294 – 05:47:06.194] The position I'm in right now, I'm getting to appreciate that really intensely.

[05:47:06.194 – 05:47:06.694] Mm-hmm. [05:47:06.694 – 05:47:06.944] Mm-hmm. [05:47:06.944 – 05:47:13.214] You know, if there's somebody off to the side who's got those qualities of calm and restraint- Mm-hmm … [05:47:13.214 – 05:47:21.224] you know, then when they start slinging the darts at you, and you're sitting in the chair and there's no place to run to, you know, those are the people that can, can- Mm-hmm … [05:47:21.224 – 05:47:23.114] kind of, you know, pull the heat off of you. [05:47:23.114 – 05:47:23.624] Mm-hmm. [05:47:23.624 – 05:47:24.564] And sort of focus- Mm-hmm … [05:47:24.564 – 05:47:31.634] focus on the, on the principles and pull away from the, the personality aspect of it.

[05:47:31.634 – 05:47:32.114] Mm-hmm. [05:47:32.114 – 05:47:42.254] And I, and I was hearing, kinda, kinda hearing those things sort of get overlaid, and I, and I think that it's hard perhaps to keep those people around when there's not [05:47:42.254 – 05:47:45.574] some kind of nominal parliamentary role for them. [05:47:45.574 – 05:47:47.774] But we desperately need them. [05:47:47.774 – 05:47:56.254] We desperately need those people with, with the, the time, the seasoning, and the experience to, to stay present. [05:47:56.254 – 05:48:01.534] And, um, you know, I certainly don't have a solution for how to keep them around.

[05:48:01.534 – 05:48:09.134] But I, I am in a geographical zone where those people in large numbers have chosen not to stay around. [05:48:09.134 – 05:48:14.942] And we are in a, in a vacuum of leadership as a consequence of that, and we're suffering. [05:48:14.942 – 05:48:15.512] Mm-hmm. [05:48:15.512 – 05:48:25.862] And that's one of the things that creates a crisis of rotation, because then you don't have people in development. [05:48:25.862 – 05:48:27.482] Mm-hmm. [05:48:27.482 – 05:48:35.012] And there's not that much said in Bill's essays in the service manual about development in a direct way, but there's an awful lot implied- Mm-hmm …

[05:48:35.012 – 05:48:37.382] about what we're doing to help other people come along. [05:48:37.382 – 05:48:38.352] Mm-hmm. [05:48:38.352 – 05:48:43.032] And I think the principle of rotation there makes those spots open to get them into them- Yeah … [05:48:43.032 – 05:48:45.122] to get them the OJT- Mm-hmm … [05:48:45.122 – 05:48:50.292] to, to get the experience necessary so that then, you know, when they move off of that rotation- Yeah … [05:48:50.292 – 05:48:50.962] they're still there. [05:48:50.962 – 05:48:52.042] Yeah. [05:48:52.042 – 05:48:52.892] Yeah. [05:48:52.892 – 05:48:54.462] I don't know how to make them hang around, but we need them. [05:48:54.462 – 05:48:55.522] You bet. [05:48:55.522 – 05:48:56.382] Thanks, Andrew. [05:48:56.382 – 05:48:58.022] Yeah, yeah, a lot, a lot of neat…

[05:48:58.022 – 05:49:08.162] I tell you one thing, I'm hatching one scheme right now that, uh, that, uh, I, I wanna get a- about [05:49:08.162 – 05:49:18.202] 25 or 30 old goats and, uh, pull them together and just say, "What do you think about stuff?" Just like [05:49:18.202 – 05:49:18.982] you're doing with me. [05:49:18.982 – 05:49:22.162] You know, "What do you think about seamless approach? [05:49:22.162 – 05:49:23.722] What do you think about rotation? [05:49:23.722 – 05:49:31.062] What…" There are a lot of old-timers, as they get older, nobody asks them anything, and they start feeling useless.

[05:49:31.062 – 05:49:33.921] So I wanna get some people and just say, "Come together. [05:49:33.921 – 05:49:36.342] We wanna take advantage of your experience. [05:49:36.342 – 05:49:43.162] Just meet somewhere, at, at, at a restaurant or whatever, or, or cook a goat or something. [05:49:43.162 – 05:49:45.332] But bring them in." They got… [05:49:45.332 – 05:49:46.642] Yeah. [05:49:46.642 – 05:49:56.642] And, uh, I just have a hunch that, that, that possibly could reinvigorate some people, but at a minimum, could make them feel worthy, [05:49:56.642 – 05:49:57.542] you know? [05:49:57.542 – 05:50:07.602] And, and so, you know, it's amazing how quickly you drop off the radar screen if you, if you get out of the mainstream, and you wind up being the loneliest cat in town, and not too

[05:50:07.602 – 05:50:10.262] long ago, you, you had, you had friends everywhere. [05:50:10.262 – 05:50:13.642] So I, I'm, I'm thinking about that. [05:50:13.642 – 05:50:20.022] And, and by the way, in Phoenix, I, I know that you got a, you got just a few older people, citizens in Florida. [05:50:20.022 – 05:50:25.442] In Phenix, Phoe- Phoenix, I believe it's Phoenix, it's Arizona. [05:50:25.442 – 05:50:35.822] They've d- they've set up a new service committee called like something like SNS or something like that, and it's Service to Seniors. [05:50:35.822 – 05:50:46.542] And so what this, this commitment's to, it's like going to detox, but they'll go to a nursing home or live in assisted living, and they're trying to carry the message to, to seniors.

[05:50:46.542 – 05:50:48.182] And I, I thought it was just an excellent thing. [05:50:48.182 – 05:50:51.442] I sat in with a presentation on that, and, uh, excellent. [05:50:51.442 – 05:50:53.332] We got some old people up our way, too, though. [05:50:53.332 – 05:50:54.582] I'm not the only one. [05:50:54.582 – 05:50:56.202] We got some really old dudes up there. [05:50:56.202 – 05:51:00.302] And so I've been thinking about trying to bring that in, in there, in there. [05:51:00.302 – 05:51:01.702] That's a good thing. [05:51:01.702 – 05:51:03.742] So we're talking about a forgotten bunch. [05:51:03.742 – 05:51:05.402] And, yeah. [05:51:05.402 – 05:51:06.562] Good deal. [05:51:06.562 – 05:51:07.962] Anybody else? [05:51:07.962 – 05:51:08.782] Yes. [05:51:08.782 – 05:51:16.442] All right. [05:51:16.442 – 05:51:20.442] Well, uh, if, if, uh, the best time to quit is when you finish.

[05:51:20.442 – 05:51:24.702] Uh, but thanks. [05:51:24.702 – 05:51:26.582] And, uh, and have a good break. [05:51:26.582 – 05:51:28.902] And, uh, any marching orders, Warren? [05:51:28.902 – 05:51:31.772] Good evening. [05:51:31.772 – 05:51:36.351] I'm Joe Burlingham, former Four Goats Young, Miami. [05:51:36.351 – 05:51:37.822] It's great to see everybody. [05:51:37.822 – 05:51:39.862] This is the session you've been waiting for. [05:51:39.862 – 05:51:44.962] Uh, Tom Ives, alcoholic. [05:51:44.962 – 05:51:45.262] Yeah. [05:51:45.262 – 05:51:46.962] I'm kinda like Andrew. [05:51:46.962 – 05:51:48.722] I do that once per meeting. [05:51:48.722 – 05:51:52.272] You know, sometimes sound like a trained parrot, you know, with, "Hi, I'm Joe. [05:51:52.272 – 05:51:53.622] I'm an alcoholic." And burp. [05:51:53.622 – 05:51:54.022] "I'm Joe. [05:51:54.022 – 05:52:03.302] I'm an alcoholic." Uh, the, the, um, it is great to see you and looki- looking forward to, uh, it is nine…

[05:52:03.302 – 05:52:08.162] If you, in case you, if you wanna synchronize your watches, it is nine o'clock in Tampa, Florida. [05:52:08.162 – 05:52:14.802] Or, or at least in the neighborhood thereof. [05:52:14.802 – 05:52:23.742] Uh, I'm gonna have you, if, if, if, if you guys will help me with the, the other end of this. [05:52:23.742 – 05:52:25.782] The other end of this has gotta be on time. [05:52:25.782 – 05:52:29.302] You know, we had a little latitude in starting, but we don't have much in finishing. [05:52:29.302 – 05:52:36.262] Because I don't have to leave, uh, uh, Tampa at, at a precise time, but the airline does.

[05:52:36.262 – 05:52:39.462] And, and they're gonna leave whether I'm there or not. [05:52:39.462 – 05:52:40.862] They don't, they won't even miss me. [05:52:42.682 – 05:52:43.612] So help me get out of here. [05:52:43.612 – 05:52:45.902] I need to be out of here no later than noon o'clock. [05:52:45.902 – 05:52:55.962] And, uh, so if you would, let's do our kissing at the break, and, uh, then, then, and I want you to see coattails when I'm flying out that [05:52:55.962 – 05:52:56.242] door. [05:52:56.242 – 05:52:57.562] Who, who am I riding with, Warren? [05:52:57.562 – 05:52:59.542] Who are you riding? [05:52:59.542 – 05:53:01.662] You're kidding me.

[05:53:01.662 – 05:53:04.022] Kevin. [05:53:04.022 – 05:53:05.262] Kevin. [05:53:05.262 – 05:53:05.702] Oh, okay. [05:53:05.702 – 05:53:06.422] I can't see. [05:53:06.422 – 05:53:10.142] There's such a glow from your halo, I can't see who's there. [05:53:10.142 – 05:53:10.962] Yeah. [05:53:10.962 – 05:53:13.602] Oh, no, maybe it's the sun. [05:53:13.602 – 05:53:24.522] Well, well, what we, what we has promised, what we want to get into to- to- today is, uh, we'll [05:53:24.522 – 05:53:34.742] have to cut it a little shorter than, than intended, but, but, you know, I'm a great believer in some philosopher, I don't remember who said, uh, "Work expands [05:53:34.742 – 05:53:44.822] or contracts according to the time that's available for its completion." So, so it either takes, uh, two hours or ten minutes.

[05:53:44.822 – 05:53:46.842] It depends on how much you got. [05:53:46.842 – 05:53:49.422] You know, so if it takes ten minutes, that's what you do. [05:53:49.422 – 05:53:51.822] And so, so I'll, I'll adjust a little bit. [05:53:51.822 – 05:53:55.982] Wanted to do the three steps, ten, eleven, and twelve. [05:53:55.982 – 05:53:58.702] And they are… [05:53:58.702 – 05:54:02.482] They're, they're often described as, as maintenance steps. [05:54:02.482 – 05:54:10.722] And, and, and certainly there's an element of that in there, you know, just sort of making sure that we keep the garden weeded and stuff like that. [05:54:10.722 – 05:54:12.062] There's an element of that.

[05:54:12.062 – 05:54:22.262] But, but I think the overwhelming message of those three steps is, uh, that we shift into tr- taking care of our self-centered condition and start [05:54:22.262 – 05:54:32.262] doing the things that move us out of the self-centered condition and starting to focus on others, recognizing that our greatest rewards come when we give the most to [05:54:32.262 – 05:54:32.662] others. [05:54:32.662 – 05:54:38.382] And so that's the, the hidden jewel, jewel in ten, eleven, and twelve, at least the way I read them. [05:54:38.382 – 05:54:48.282] Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna gloss through a, a little bit on, uh, on a little bit of the maintenance aspects.

[05:54:48.282 – 05:54:57.782] And I'll count it as just a short one, so I'll just kind of zip through this thing and, and, and, and visit it as we go. [05:54:57.782 – 05:55:01.682] When we get through with the promises, it's, it's, um… [05:55:01.682 – 05:55:06.922] I like to lead into the promises. [05:55:06.922 – 05:55:09.522] You know, the follow-up to them. [05:55:09.522 – 05:55:17.692] That at the end of the promise says these extravagant promises. [05:55:17.692 – 05:55:27.202] Talking about all of the things that happen if we've been painstaking about that amends process, and then what'll happen is all of those things will start to happen.

[05:55:27.202 – 05:55:31.962] And it may take a lifetime for them to be fully realized, if, if ever, but they, uh… [05:55:31.962 – 05:55:37.682] They are promises of what'll happen if I, if I, if I, if I take those, if we take those actions well. [05:55:37.682 – 05:55:43.562] And then move into a, to a, to a new direction. [05:55:43.562 – 05:55:53.902] And the way I read the book, everything from that place of which says what these extravagant promises and things not, everything starts with me and ends with others.

[05:55:53.902 – 05:55:56.922] Nothing stops with me. [05:55:56.922 – 05:56:03.562] And, um, so that, that's why I like to, to think of these as, as, as Major League action steps rather than maintenance steps. [05:56:03.562 – 05:56:07.462] The– And that thought brings us to step ten. [05:56:07.462 – 05:56:12.082] It suggests we take personal inventory, continue to set right any new mistakes as we go along. [05:56:12.082 – 05:56:18.231] The, you know, inventory is a, is a, is, has multi definitions. [05:56:18.231 – 05:56:24.482] You know, there's everything from the agonizing of, of step four to spot checks, you know.

[05:56:24.482 – 05:56:28.742] And, and, and, and our inventory doesn't always mean Freudian analysis. [05:56:28.742 – 05:56:32.822] You know, it sometimes, you know, what we get restored to is life. [05:56:32.822 – 05:56:36.442] Because we're sober, we don't transcend life. [05:56:36.442 – 05:56:45.262] We get restored to life just like every other human, and we have the same slings and arrows and bumps and bruises that everybody else has. [05:56:45.262 – 05:56:47.242] They're just the stuff of life. [05:56:47.242 – 05:56:53.082] And in going through life, the way I like to look at this thing, we're gonna have…

[05:56:53.082 – 05:57:00.302] I want you to know Beth's here, late but present. [05:57:00.302 – 05:57:04.802] But like anybody else, we're gonna have goofs. [05:57:04.802 – 05:57:11.922] And, uh, and that doesn't require nine one one. [05:57:11.922 – 05:57:13.782] I mean, that's just the stuff of life. [05:57:13.782 – 05:57:20.602] And so most of what we run into is just the goofs of things, where we're rude or inconsiderate or something like that to people. [05:57:20.602 – 05:57:24.902] And, uh, it doesn't require a lot of deep analysis. [05:57:24.902 – 05:57:29.582] So I, so I like to look at these steps as real action steps to, to deal with it and move on.

[05:57:29.582 – 05:57:36.782] And, um, so as he goes into it, that we continue to set right any new mistakes as we go along. [05:57:36.782 – 05:57:41.322] We vigorously commenced this way of living as we sl- cleaned up the past. [05:57:41.322 – 05:57:43.341] We have entered the world of the spirit. [05:57:43.341 – 05:57:45.262] We're in a different dimension now. [05:57:45.262 – 05:57:50.422] Our next function is to grow in understanding and effectiveness. [05:57:50.422 – 05:57:56.412] Now you can put any kind of interpretation, and, and everybody probably has a little different… [05:57:56.412 – 05:57:56.942] Welcome, Beth. [05:57:56.942 – 05:58:05.522] She told me last night she was ambivalent, and I said, "Oh, you'll be there." You can tell a racehorse when the bugle blows, he's gone, you know?

[05:58:05.522 – 05:58:06.662] Yeah. [05:58:06.662 – 05:58:13.122] And to, to grow in understanding effectiveness, that, that has a, a tremendous meaning for me. [05:58:13.122 – 05:58:20.442] And we've talked about it some over the weekend about, uh, you know, when you see a problem, instead of avoid it, move in. [05:58:20.442 – 05:58:23.122] You know, try to understand, you know, what's going on. [05:58:23.122 – 05:58:26.462] Try to understand it and improve the effectiveness of stuff. [05:58:26.462 – 05:58:27.262] Yeah. [05:58:27.262 – 05:58:28.582] Woody, bless your heart. [05:58:28.582 – 05:58:29.562] Bless your heart. [05:58:29.562 – 05:58:30.682] Any more copies left? [05:58:30.682 – 05:58:37.562] Yeah, there's still a few more copies of that, uh, that, uh, thing we did, opened up with.

[05:58:37.562 – 05:58:42.992] And so understanding and effectiveness, to me, it doesn't mean, uh… [05:58:42.992 – 05:58:47.326] Understanding of myself, more understanding of me. [05:58:47.326 – 05:58:54.756] But it's, it's understanding the things that, that I encounter in the business of living and things that are troubling to me. [05:58:54.756 – 05:58:58.396] And, and so when I take a look at that, at, at, at… [05:58:58.396 – 05:59:06.016] And I, I would just encourage you, I'm not gonna try to give you homework, but I would encourage you to keep that in mind when you go to wherever you live and wherever you practice AA.

[05:59:06.016 – 05:59:16.026] Take a look at something that's going on that's troubling to you, and then just, just take those two words and put them [05:59:16.026 – 05:59:16.466] to work. [05:59:16.466 – 05:59:19.086] Try to understand what the problem is. [05:59:19.086 – 05:59:21.726] You know, if it's something troubling to you, try to understand. [05:59:21.726 – 05:59:26.086] And then think of something that could be done better. [05:59:26.086 – 05:59:35.826] And I think that's what that whole message is about, is, is, is to try to make a contribution, to focus on, uh, improving situation rather than reacting to them.

[05:59:35.826 – 05:59:41.925] And, um, I'd, I'd, I'll tell you just, just a couple of kinda quick example. [05:59:41.925 – 05:59:44.646] I don't only preach this, I practice it. [05:59:44.646 – 05:59:52.246] And, uh, yeah, that, I m- I mentioned, uh, yesterday in the start of this about why, why I started taking people through the book. [05:59:52.246 – 05:59:56.226] And it wasn't because I wanted to, to teach somebody or educate them about the book. [05:59:56.226 – 06:00:00.506] I wanted people to stop coming in here and going right back out the door. [06:00:00.506 – 06:00:08.926] You know, I wanted to do, to contribute whatever I could to helping people get a stronger hold on sobriety, and I believe that would do it, and it does.

[06:00:08.926 – 06:00:09.646] It does. [06:00:09.646 – 06:00:11.226] And it's, it's as simple as that. [06:00:11.226 – 06:00:14.646] You know, it doesn't take a, a research project to try to figure it out. [06:00:14.646 – 06:00:15.525] I mean, take a look. [06:00:15.525 – 06:00:17.026] And if you want to… [06:00:17.026 – 06:00:20.796] If you, if you want another way, w-well, g-give you another one. [06:00:20.796 – 06:00:21.706] You know, they're everywhere. [06:00:21.706 – 06:00:31.986] Um, I got concerned o-o-one time because most states have it, but we have, I call it the drunk lawyer [06:00:31.986 – 06:00:32.526] program. [06:00:32.526 – 06:00:41.726] And, uh, they got a nice little spoof, swiffy name for it, but drunk lawyer's what it's about.

[06:00:41.726 – 06:00:45.346] And just like every profe- every profession's got one. [06:00:45.346 – 06:00:48.186] And, and it's a thing where they, uh… [06:00:48.186 – 06:00:50.666] And, and certainly in the spirit of trying to be helpful. [06:00:50.666 – 06:00:57.006] They capture wayward lawyers or ministers or priests or doctors or whatever. [06:00:57.006 – 06:00:57.466] The, the… [06:00:57.466 – 06:00:58.726] Every profession has it. [06:00:58.726 – 06:01:06.626] And so they capture folk, and then they, they mandate actions to take. [06:01:06.626 – 06:01:16.566] Routinely will go through treatment, and, uh, when they get through, will routinely be referred, uh, to AA if they're alcoholic.

[06:01:16.566 – 06:01:19.526] You know, give and a lot of MAR. [06:01:19.526 – 06:01:29.706] And what they do is they g- they, they get a, a lawyer that's in some least stage of recovery to [06:01:29.706 – 06:01:34.165] function as a sponsor/monitor. [06:01:34.165 – 06:01:39.946] And I would submit to you that those are mutually exclusive terms. [06:01:39.946 – 06:01:42.766] A sponsor is not a policeman. [06:01:42.766 – 06:01:45.046] A sponsor is not a monitor. [06:01:45.046 – 06:01:53.186] And so I, I started noticing particularly with lawyers, and, um, they, uh, just because they'd call me several times. [06:01:53.186 – 06:01:58.626] And, and what they do is call somebody, "Would you sponsor/monitor?" I always say no.

[06:01:58.626 – 06:02:03.186] Now, if you got somebody and you want to, to, to give them my name, feel free to do so. [06:02:03.186 – 06:02:05.666] But if you want a sponsor, they're gonna have to ask me. [06:02:05.666 – 06:02:07.966] You, you know, I'm not gonna be assigned by somebody. [06:02:07.966 – 06:02:09.406] You can thump that up. [06:02:09.406 – 06:02:16.226] And so I got to seeing that and thought, "That's a, a, a heck of a deal." Talked to a couple lawyers. [06:02:16.226 – 06:02:20.846] Some of them had so many mandated activities they didn't have time to practice law.

[06:02:20.846 – 06:02:27.046] I talked to one guy who was in AA, f- uh, counseling, family therapy, psychiatry. [06:02:27.046 – 06:02:28.486] Good God. [06:02:28.486 – 06:02:31.606] I mean, man, that guy's got to go fight in court but he couldn't get time. [06:02:31.606 – 06:02:36.086] Well, it made no sense at, on the ground level. [06:02:36.086 – 06:02:46.086] It made sense to the people who were trying to, quote, "help." And, uh, so I just, I just started paying attention to that and, and, uh, started trying to think of, well, what could [06:02:46.086 – 06:02:47.446] you do to, to do better than that?

[06:02:47.446 – 06:02:57.486] Just happened one day to be at a luncheon for somebody, and, uh, the fellow who was the, the driver of [06:02:57.486 – 06:02:59.426] that program w-was right in front of me. [06:02:59.426 – 06:03:09.606] I knew him and, uh, I'd done a few law classes where you all like to bring in somebody made to talk to lawyers, and I'd done a few of those for him, and he, uh, he said, [06:03:09.606 – 06:03:17.426] "What are you doing since you retired?" And I said, "Well, you know, I can't tell you everything, but I'm busier than I've ever been." I said, "Work was a nuisance.

[06:03:17.426 – 06:03:22.816] I haven't, I haven't really got time to work now." And, uh, he said he said, "Well, like what?" [06:03:22.964 – 06:03:33.324] you doing?" I said, "Well, I'm doing a lot of stuff." And then I said, "Well, one of the things you might be interested in, I'm taking a hard look at, uh, how we handle lawyers, and, uh, I'm troubled [06:03:33.324 – 06:03:38.644] by, by, by what I see." And of course, he was interested, keenly interested in that. [06:03:38.644 – 06:03:39.744] He directs the program. [06:03:39.744 – 06:03:41.754] And, and he said…

[06:03:41.754 – 06:03:51.864] I s- I said, "Do you get many phone calls from doc- uh, lawyers who are lost in the fog?" He said, "My God, Tom, that's [06:03:51.864 – 06:04:02.244] how I spend my day, is answering phone calls from people who are saying, 'How do I get out of this cracker box?'" And, uh, so he was eager, [06:04:02.244 – 06:04:03.024] and he said… [06:04:03.024 – 06:04:06.244] Now, I'm a pretty, you probably gathered, I'm a pretty simple thinker. [06:04:06.244 – 06:04:11.804] I mean, I know com- there's complex stuff, but I like simple, direct things.

[06:04:11.804 – 06:04:21.824] So he said, "What do you think we could do?" And I said, "Well, you know, I got a couple ideas." I said, "But one of them, if you want to ask me what I'd do, I'd get a table [06:04:21.824 – 06:04:31.904] and put some of you guys on that side of it and some of us guys on this side of it, and then we'll try to figure out how we can make a handoff from [06:04:31.904 – 06:04:38.314] what you're doing to AA." He said, "My God, that's brilliant." I said, "Well, that's really brilliant.

[06:04:38.314 – 06:04:38.844] A table. [06:04:38.844 – 06:04:48.584] You, you think you can find a table?" He said, "I got one." And so, but see, what I'm talking about now is, is, is that that started with a concern. [06:04:48.584 – 06:04:55.584] I'm concerned about lawyers wandering around in the fog and, and failing in their profession. [06:04:55.584 – 06:04:58.624] I'm concerned about that as a human being. [06:04:58.624 – 06:05:03.324] I'm concerned about a system that moves from… [06:05:03.324 – 06:05:06.024] Well, j- just a quick example. [06:05:06.024 – 06:05:10.734] Now, I, and I am gonna have to quit at 12:00, but so don't let me give too many examples.

[06:05:10.734 – 06:05:12.144] God knows I've got a million. [06:05:12.144 – 06:05:14.924] And but if you… [06:05:14.924 – 06:05:22.624] I tell you what's troubling a- a- about this whole thing, aside from just the h- the individual humans involved. [06:05:22.624 – 06:05:27.224] If, if you, if you know history, and I know know some of you could teach the history of AA. [06:05:27.224 – 06:05:37.364] You think back to, to the process where AA started, when, when, when Rowland Hazard went to see the, the judge in Vermont [06:05:37.364 – 06:05:43.324] where Ebby Thatcher was gonna be dealt with again for the God knows how many times.

[06:05:43.324 – 06:05:52.464] And Rowland said to the court, "Why don't you let us work with him?" And the judge said, "What have I got to lose? [06:05:52.464 – 06:05:55.964] I- I'm– he's a regular customer anyway." I'm not sure that's what he's thinking. [06:05:55.964 – 06:05:57.484] This guy's not gonna hurt anybody. [06:05:57.484 – 06:06:01.124] He was in there for shooting at birds in, in town. [06:06:01.124 – 06:06:09.784] So the judge said, "Take him." Well, if you look at that, now this is a human being reaching out. [06:06:09.784 – 06:06:17.504] Rowland was an alcoholic who never got in AA, but he was an alcoholic who sought an, found another path, and he w-wound up in an Oxford group.

[06:06:17.504 – 06:06:20.664] But j- listen to what's happening. [06:06:20.664 – 06:06:26.244] Here's a h- one guy reaching out to a system and saying, "Forget the system. [06:06:26.244 – 06:06:27.184] Let us have him. [06:06:27.184 – 06:06:28.964] He's ours. [06:06:28.964 – 06:06:34.024] Let us have him." Well, the judge would have been a fool not to do that, and so he readily did it. [06:06:34.024 – 06:06:44.044] And, uh, that set up the, the thing that we see today as people coming in with sl- little slips of paper mandated to [06:06:44.044 – 06:06:44.484] AA. [06:06:44.484 – 06:06:50.424] So what we've done over the years, and, and I s- I saw a lot of it.

[06:06:50.424 – 06:07:00.444] At one time, in fact, there was a judge in this state at one time who was a hero in Alcoholics Anonymous because he started dealing in a more effective kind of way, [06:07:00.444 – 06:07:04.404] uh, with alcoholics and, and, and doing something other than, than, than mandated. [06:07:04.404 – 06:07:10.724] And, and all over the country, there were, well, in a lot of places in the country, there were people who were doing the same thing. [06:07:10.724 – 06:07:16.564] And so you, you had a very pure way of carrying a message.

[06:07:16.564 – 06:07:18.504] It's almost like a 12-step call. [06:07:18.504 – 06:07:24.824] You're just doing it i- into a, to a s- setting rather than, than, than, than a drunk nest. [06:07:24.824 – 06:07:27.984] And, and so it's the, the same thing of reaching out. [06:07:27.984 – 06:07:38.004] You, you think about the, the feeling that Ebby had when, when, when, when Rowland stepped in and got him, and then Ebby was the guy that met with Bill, and then they, they, they, they [06:07:38.004 – 06:07:40.304] culminated in, in, in an Oxford group. [06:07:40.304 – 06:07:45.023] Well, compare that to what we do today.

[06:07:45.023 – 06:07:54.944] And it's true in every profession, not just d-d-drunks in court, but it's true in every pos- pr- profession where we've done a 180. [06:07:54.944 – 06:08:05.204] And rather than being a, a p- place where one human reaches out to another, where one recovered reach out to another, what we've done is institutionalized [06:08:05.204 – 06:08:06.004] the process. [06:08:06.004 – 06:08:12.044] We've institutionalized it so that it's like a, it's like a production line. [06:08:12.044 – 06:08:15.044] I mean, people come through, and it's a mechanical process. [06:08:15.044 – 06:08:18.244] Take this slip, go to this thing, stay there till…

[06:08:18.244 – 06:08:23.684] You know, for God's sakes, what kind of way is that to introduce somebody to Alcoholics Anonymous? [06:08:23.684 – 06:08:28.164] You start out with a huge barrier to overcome. [06:08:28.164 – 06:08:32.544] And, uh, so it, it, it's a troubling kind of thing, eh? [06:08:32.544 – 06:08:33.604] And it's true. [06:08:33.604 – 06:08:35.324] I don't care if you're talking about airline pilots. [06:08:35.324 – 06:08:37.404] I don't mean to point at you, but you're not a pilot. [06:08:37.404 – 06:08:47.424] But but airline pilots or anybody, physicians, you know, that I think probably the tough- We– I, I got two docs right now trying to figure

[06:08:47.424 – 06:08:48.944] out how to get into the medical side. [06:08:48.944 – 06:08:54.504] They're gonna be the toughest of all because they put as rigid of controls as anybody. [06:08:54.504 – 06:08:59.684] And so I do want to give you a couple examples, you know, that these are not things you gotta look for. [06:08:59.684 – 06:09:01.304] They're right in front of you. [06:09:01.304 – 06:09:03.384] Um, I had a, had a… [06:09:03.384 – 06:09:08.644] I sponsored a doc that, that was, uh, under mandate when I got him. [06:09:08.644 – 06:09:15.024] He was an anesthesiologist who kept getting himself mixed up with the patients a lot.

[06:09:15.024 – 06:09:17.044] And, uh, they caught him. [06:09:17.044 – 06:09:21.824] And so when I got him, he was, he was under heavy mandate. [06:09:21.824 – 06:09:27.676] And, uh- He was p-pleading his case, you know, pleading his case. [06:09:27.676 – 06:09:35.176] And, and I t- I told him one day, I said, "Why don't you quit pleading your case and teach these people something about alcoholism? [06:09:35.176 – 06:09:38.696] Don't be telling them how much you need your license, how much it means to you. [06:09:38.696 – 06:09:40.176] Explain the illness to these folks. [06:09:40.176 – 06:09:49.536] Just talk about the illness in general, and quit pleading your case." Well, you wouldn't believe it, that guy, he thought he would never get restored to his, his profession.

[06:09:49.536 – 06:09:53.076] He not only got restored, he heads the department. [06:09:53.076 – 06:09:57.096] Here I go again. [06:09:57.096 – 06:09:58.896] In a university hospital. [06:09:58.896 – 06:10:00.996] Amazing things happen. [06:10:00.996 – 06:10:07.536] And, um, I tell you well, one example's worth a thousand words anyway. [06:10:07.536 – 06:10:13.216] That one, one, working with somebody like that is a l-bit of, a little bit of a challenge. [06:10:13.216 – 06:10:14.376] He was kind of a fruit loop. [06:10:14.376 – 06:10:17.316] I mean, whatever he took screwed him up pretty bad. [06:10:17.316 – 06:10:26.816] And, uh, he was one, one night he, uh, he's telling me, I– we were having breakfast then, that's where I worked on him.

[06:10:26.816 – 06:10:34.056] And, and I said, "Well, big guy, you got a, a big day coming up." "What's that?" He always acted like he was amazed at everything. [06:10:34.056 – 06:10:36.136] You could say, "It's raining." "Really?" Yeah. [06:10:36.136 – 06:10:46.146] And, uh, I said, "Big day." And he said, "What is it?" I said, "It's your two-year anniversary, ding-a-ling." And he said, "Oh, my God." He said, [06:10:46.146 – 06:10:52.136] "I forgot." And he said, "I can't be there." I said, "Well, that's too bad. [06:10:52.136 – 06:11:01.096] Uh, why can't you be there?" He said, "I have got to go to a annual command performance of the Medical Society for the State of North Carolina.

[06:11:01.096 – 06:11:05.996] And if I don't go, they will absolutely be convinced I'm drunk. [06:11:05.996 – 06:11:15.996] And I've gotta go." And I said, "Well, it really is too bad." And, uh, and I said, "But I tell you the good side of this, it tells me [06:11:15.996 – 06:11:23.516] what the agenda will be for our next immediate, our next meeting." And he said, "What?" He thought I had, like, good news. [06:11:23.516 – 06:11:33.535] I said, "It will be about priorities." And, and he said, "What do you mean?" And I said, "Well, what it means is when the things that come to you

[06:11:33.536 – 06:11:43.556] as a result of your recovery become more important than what produces your recovery, your priorities are 180 degrees off." Now, he was not a nut. [06:11:43.556 – 06:11:45.036] He was a ding-a-ling, but he was not a nut. [06:11:45.036 – 06:11:49.016] And he heard that, and, and I swear the boy just turned ashen gray. [06:11:49.016 – 06:11:56.416] And he said, "I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'll be there." And so I, I said, I left it to him. [06:11:56.416 – 06:12:02.486] He came in that night dressed for the ball, you know.

[06:12:02.486 – 06:12:08.296] Had on a tux with a zebra tie and a zebra cummerbund. [06:12:08.296 – 06:12:13.316] So I introduced him to everybody as the offspring of the mating of a zebra and a penguin. [06:12:13.316 – 06:12:19.996] But, but then he, he went on, you know. [06:12:19.996 – 06:12:20.436] He went on. [06:12:20.436 – 06:12:23.596] But, you know, just s-simple, simple little stuff. [06:12:23.596 – 06:12:33.796] Uh, but he had to get his priorities, you know, and, and, and if you're not, you know, and I told him on a couple other occasions, I said, "If they ask you why you're not there, tell them it's because

[06:12:33.796 – 06:12:36.796] your sponsor told you that you couldn't do that. [06:12:36.796 – 06:12:38.636] And don't take the heat. [06:12:38.636 – 06:12:39.276] Give it to me. [06:12:39.276 – 06:12:43.776] You know, I'll be glad to talk with them if they want to." But it, it's a simple thing, eh? [06:12:43.776 – 06:12:46.516] There's nothing real rocket science about that. [06:12:46.516 – 06:12:51.916] It, it's just thinking of, of, of, you know, try to understand what that– They mean well. [06:12:51.916 – 06:12:53.796] They're not trying to hurt the guy. [06:12:53.796 – 06:12:55.556] They mean well. [06:12:55.556 – 06:13:05.636] What's missing is us because we have long since backed off on proactive outreach where we try to get

[06:13:05.636 – 06:13:08.736] into systems like Roland did with that court. [06:13:08.736 – 06:13:11.736] That's almost a relic of the past. [06:13:11.736 – 06:13:13.196] And so… [06:13:13.196 – 06:13:13.796] Bless you. [06:13:13.796 – 06:13:14.716] Bless you. [06:13:14.716 – 06:13:16.636] Sneezed right in my coffee. [06:13:16.636 – 06:13:20.596] It's better, I think. [06:13:20.596 – 06:13:26.036] Uh, so but, but anyway, you know, that, that, that had a good outcome. [06:13:26.036 – 06:13:36.056] But, but just while, right before he m– he's in Virginia now heading that department, but right before he moved, one night he told me he had to leave the meeting a little, a little early than he'd normally left, and

[06:13:36.056 – 06:13:39.476] I said, "Where are you going?" He said, "I gotta go see Roger," who's another doc. [06:13:39.476 – 06:13:45.216] And I said, "What for?" I just smelled a rat, you know, and I can, I can smell a rat. [06:13:45.216 – 06:13:55.256] And he said, uh, "I gotta go take a sample." I said, "Of what?" He said, "Well, you know, I gotta t-, I gotta take a sample of…" And I said, [06:13:55.256 – 06:14:02.476] "Well, for what?" And he said, "I've got to report it to the board." And I said, "No, you don't.

[06:14:02.476 – 06:14:04.086] No, you don't have to do that." [06:14:04.952 – 06:14:05.672] The same thing. [06:14:05.672 – 06:14:08.272] You know, you are not a monitor. [06:14:08.272 – 06:14:09.932] You're a sponsor. [06:14:09.932 – 06:14:12.352] Sponsors don't monitor. [06:14:12.352 – 06:14:22.572] And you tell them the same thing, if they've forgotten how you o- how you operate, that you are not a monitor, and you can't take a sample because your sponsor [06:14:22.572 – 06:14:25.122] told you you can't take a spon– a, a sample. [06:14:25.122 – 06:14:27.072] And so it, it… [06:14:27.072 – 06:14:30.972] Now, that's kind of a, kind of a hard line da- of dealing with the same thing.

[06:14:30.972 – 06:14:33.072] So what do you do instead? [06:14:33.072 – 06:14:37.412] I think when you're gonna criticize a process, you gotta be prepared to offer something better. [06:14:37.412 – 06:14:39.312] And, and so what… [06:14:39.312 – 06:14:44.752] We got two docs right now that are, that are studying that system trying to find a point of access. [06:14:44.752 – 06:14:48.822] But my son's a physician, so I, I, I know what I'm talking about. [06:14:48.822 – 06:14:52.752] There's a God syndrome that comes with phys– with medical license. [06:14:52.752 – 06:14:57.312] And when you start challenging a doc, you're treading on, on, on sacred ground.

[06:14:57.312 – 06:15:04.332] So we're gonna have to be pretty thoughtful about how we try to, to, to intervene and see if we can't offer a better way. [06:15:04.332 – 06:15:12.332] And I think when they see we're not trying to practice medicine and tell them how to do it, and see what we're trying to do is reach alcoholics, I think they're gonna be very responsive. [06:15:12.332 – 06:15:13.992] But we gotta be thoughtful and careful about it. [06:15:13.992 – 06:15:20.111] Now, that is just a couple of examples of, of things that, that they sound complicated.

[06:15:20.111 – 06:15:24.272] Uh, I, I could tell you one other one, and I may not even read. [06:15:24.272 – 06:15:28.632] Tell you one other one that, uh, was, was, was very useful. [06:15:28.632 – 06:15:29.892] That… [06:15:29.892 – 06:15:34.332] And Sean, I know Andrew's heard me talk about this thing that the, uh… [06:15:34.332 – 06:15:37.192] But it needs to be talked about 'cause it's all over the country. [06:15:37.192 – 06:15:46.652] This thing that replaced what Roland did with Abby, you know, of, of somebody going in and saying, "Let us try something with it." It's, it's, it has done a complete one eighty.

[06:15:46.652 – 06:15:48.992] And we, we're, we're repleting. [06:15:48.992 – 06:15:50.512] I guarantee you, you got it in this town. [06:15:50.512 – 06:15:53.612] You got it everywhere that, um… [06:15:53.612 – 06:15:56.112] I was– I don't think it was Tampa. [06:15:56.112 – 06:15:57.212] It was somewhere. [06:15:57.212 – 06:15:59.312] Where's the, where'd the rat ear? [06:15:59.312 – 06:16:00.352] Orlando. [06:16:00.352 – 06:16:01.812] Yeah, Orlando. [06:16:01.812 – 06:16:02.192] Yeah. [06:16:02.192 – 06:16:04.902] And, and I called up. [06:16:04.902 – 06:16:12.632] We were goof– My wife and I were just goofing off one weekend, and as I called up the, and the s- the office said, "Is there a meeting anywhere in our neighborhood? [06:16:12.632 – 06:16:18.772] We'd like to catch one at an open meeting." And said, "Yeah, there's one right next to you." So we went over there.

[06:16:18.772 – 06:16:20.912] It was the darndest meeting I've ever seen. [06:16:20.912 – 06:16:24.272] Well, not darndest, but in the, in the category though. [06:16:24.272 – 06:16:25.552] It, it… [06:16:25.552 – 06:16:26.792] Went in, there's one guy. [06:16:26.792 – 06:16:30.872] We drove around the back of the building, and there's a guy sitting by the door, and he was it. [06:16:30.872 – 06:16:33.412] And so I, I rolled the window down. [06:16:33.412 – 06:16:34.192] Didn't even say anything. [06:16:34.192 – 06:16:35.312] He said, "Yeah, this is it. [06:16:35.312 – 06:16:37.132] Come on in." So we did. [06:16:37.132 – 06:16:40.232] So it was me and him and my wife. [06:16:40.232 – 06:16:44.332] Then another guy came in, and they, uh, started the meeting.

[06:16:44.332 – 06:16:49.392] Now, just before they started the meeting, it looked like a parade of ducks were coming in. [06:16:49.392 – 06:16:54.152] A door opened on the other side, and here comes a line of people coming through. [06:16:54.152 – 06:16:58.052] Well, I mean, you don't normally come into a, in formation. [06:16:58.052 – 06:16:58.552] You know what I mean? [06:16:58.552 – 06:17:00.312] That just, that'll get your attention. [06:17:00.312 – 06:17:09.792] So I'm looking, saying, "What is going on with this?" So they came and sat down, and we did the usual stuff, and it was reading, and they go talk, and we get me to read something, and, you know.

[06:17:09.792 – 06:17:18.272] And, uh, finally I was sorta, sorta catching on to what it was, and I, I just asked, played dumb, you know. [06:17:18.272 – 06:17:23.082] And I said, uh, "No, no." The chairman gave me the opening. [06:17:23.082 – 06:17:33.192] He said, he said, "Tom, you may have noticed that this is not your regular meeting." I said, "Yeah, that did come to my attention." I– And he said, "These people," you know, like they were from [06:17:33.192 – 06:17:33.812] another planet. [06:17:33.812 – 06:17:42.492] Said, "These people are f- from probation, and they were reporting to the office next door, and then they sent them over here." So they come in like a column of ducks.

[06:17:42.492 – 06:17:47.592] And I said, "Man, this is wonderful," because I've been wondering for a long time. [06:17:47.592 – 06:17:51.352] I see this happening, and I wonder, does it– does it do anything? [06:17:51.352 – 06:17:52.452] D- is it effective? [06:17:52.452 – 06:17:53.312] You know, what's it like? [06:17:53.312 – 06:18:00.752] And my God, you'd have thought they, they had invented the topic because you talk about a bunch of soldiers coming alive. [06:18:00.752 – 06:18:09.132] And they started unloading what it felt like to be in that line and what it felt like to be sitting in that meeting feeling like an intruder, you know.

[06:18:09.132 – 06:18:19.522] And, uh, and it was just a-a-another e-example of, of what I think is that we've let a tragic thing happen, where we've moved away from that outreach [06:18:19.522 – 06:18:25.912] activity to go in and get our folk out of a system and do something with them and let it become just an institutional process. [06:18:25.912 – 06:18:27.612] That bugged me for years. [06:18:27.612 – 06:18:37.792] And, um, one, one day I'm on the corrections committee in my, in my group, and w- w- one day we had a little bit of time, and I said,

[06:18:37.792 – 06:18:45.522] I said, "How would you guys feel about trying to do something about that, that court slip signing thing?" And one of the… [06:18:45.522 – 06:18:50.952] Guy's sponsor, forty-some years sober, said, "Oh, hell, Tom, you can't do anything about that. [06:18:50.952 – 06:18:54.512] They do it all over the country." I said, "Well, let's don't fix the whole country. [06:18:54.512 – 06:19:00.652] Let's just work on Mayberry here." And, and, uh, he said, "Well, we could try, but I know it won't do anything. [06:19:00.652 – 06:19:05.372] Man'll never fly." And, uh, so we went, went, went to work.

[06:19:05.372 – 06:19:08.492] And now I do my best thinking on airplanes. [06:19:08.492 – 06:19:09.592] I get… [06:19:09.592 – 06:19:13.272] The air's thin, and I get a little freer with, with, with my mind or something. [06:19:13.272 – 06:19:17.552] One, and I'm up close to God, you know, and so I, I can shake hands and stuff. [06:19:17.552 – 06:19:20.892] And, uh, so I, I was wr– I got to thinking about… [06:19:20.892 – 06:19:24.552] I had s– I had set up a meeting with that goofy doc. [06:19:24.552 – 06:19:30.992] He was our CPC chair, and this was gonna be his first activity as a CPC chair, so I was gonna help him.

[06:19:30.992 – 06:19:37.832] And I got to thinking, we've already scheduled a meeting with the d-director of probation in that part of the state. [06:19:37.832 – 06:19:45.172] The judge, I knew we had the judge, so, so if it hadn't worked with probation, we'd have gone on to the judge, but didn't need to. [06:19:45.172 – 06:19:49.132] So I started writing down, why does that bother me so much? [06:19:49.132 – 06:19:51.192] You know, what is it I don't like about that? [06:19:51.192 – 06:19:55.452] You know, when I'm gonna meet with somebody, I wanna have my ducks in a row.

[06:19:55.452 – 06:19:59.672] I wanna know exactly what I'm trying to do and not go in there with judgment. [06:19:59.672 – 06:20:04.492] "We don't like what you're doing." Well, that, that's– You're not– You won't get a problem solved, I guarantee you, that way. [06:20:04.492 – 06:20:07.032] And, um, so I wrote it down. [06:20:07.032 – 06:20:12.072] I wrote down, what could somebody possibly think was good about that? [06:20:12.072 – 06:20:16.472] I came up with 10 things that I was super generous. [06:20:16.472 – 06:20:19.092] I didn't really believe any of them were helpful. [06:20:19.092 – 06:20:26.552] But I put a question mark behind three because maybe once a millennium it might work for somebody.

[06:20:26.552 – 06:20:31.171] So I gave it a question mark, you know, not a, not a plus. [06:20:31.171 – 06:20:35.452] On the other side, I quit at twenty-five things that were wrong. [06:20:35.452 – 06:20:36.292] Yeah. [06:20:36.292 – 06:20:38.331] I just alluded to, to one of them. [06:20:38.331 – 06:20:47.792] But, but, you know, what does it do to somebody who has to come in here hat in hand, "Will you sign this piece of paper for me?" You feel like an, an, an idiot doing something like that. [06:20:47.792 – 06:20:51.331] And, and, and so that's what these guys were feeling that came in that night.

[06:20:51.331 – 06:20:54.112] And, uh, what a welcome to AA. [06:20:54.112 – 06:20:57.712] So, so I just started listing twenty-five things, and they're about what you would imagine. [06:20:57.712 – 06:21:01.752] You know, it makes a second-class citizen out of him as soon as he walks in. [06:21:01.752 – 06:21:05.751] It, it robs him of ownership, you know. [06:21:05.751 – 06:21:06.412] The one… [06:21:06.412 – 06:21:13.492] And when we got that and we sat down with the director of probation, uh, he was just like any agency person. [06:21:13.492 – 06:21:19.332] He backed up behind a big desk in a defensive posture because he thought he was being attacked.

[06:21:19.332 – 06:21:24.232] And so we, we to- we told him what we're doing, and I gave him a copy of those things. [06:21:24.232 – 06:21:34.432] He was reading through, and the sixth one, I believe, said, "If I do that, if I sign that paper, [06:21:34.432 – 06:21:38.592] it changes the nature of my relationship to another alcoholic. [06:21:38.592 – 06:21:42.612] I become a validator. [06:21:42.612 – 06:21:44.352] I'm no longer a fellow alcoholic. [06:21:44.352 – 06:21:46.062] I'm the approver. [06:21:46.062 – 06:21:48.822] You know, that's not what I wanna be to an alcoholic. [06:21:48.822 – 06:21:54.192] I wanna be another alcoholic, and it changes that relationship absolutely.

[06:21:54.192 – 06:21:57.512] It also constitutes affiliation. [06:21:57.512 – 06:22:07.552] It makes me a volunteer probation agent, and I have no interest in that." He got to that one, and he said, "Well, I'll be [06:22:07.552 – 06:22:08.032] damned. [06:22:08.032 – 06:22:15.532] I never thought of that." I said, "Me either." I told him, I said, "I got my airplane right close to God." And he told me. [06:22:15.532 – 06:22:17.892] Well, who… [06:22:17.892 – 06:22:21.732] Somebody told me, and that is who I work for, that he told me that. [06:22:21.732 – 06:22:25.232] And, and so we resolved it, you know, in a heartbeat.

[06:22:25.232 – 06:22:29.192] And, um, you know, and he asked us just to meet with some of probation. [06:22:29.192 – 06:22:34.192] I t- and I told him, and I said, "And, and we invite two guys, two probation officers at a time. [06:22:34.192 – 06:22:35.952] Not packing. [06:22:35.952 – 06:22:36.852] We don't want them packing. [06:22:36.852 – 06:22:38.572] If they come in there, they're gonna have to be clean. [06:22:38.572 – 06:22:44.612] And don't come in there looking like they're on a hunt for somebody." But we wanted to come in and let them sort of see what, what we're about.

[06:22:44.612 – 06:22:47.612] Well, that's twev– almost twelve years ago. [06:22:47.612 – 06:22:49.052] We've never seen a paper since. [06:22:49.052 – 06:22:53.272] People ask me if we get, still get people from probation. [06:22:53.272 – 06:22:57.572] I can't tell you how pleased I am to say I have no idea. [06:22:57.572 – 06:22:59.712] It's none of my business. [06:22:59.712 – 06:23:01.212] What do I care whether… [06:23:01.212 – 06:23:07.372] I don't stand at the door and say, "Let me see your resume." I, I couldn't care less why somebody comes in that door. [06:23:07.372 – 06:23:11.892] And, um, if they're in the wrong door, we can help them find the right door, you know.

[06:23:11.892 – 06:23:13.352] But, but no. [06:23:13.352 – 06:23:15.532] And, and so I don't, I really don't know. [06:23:15.532 – 06:23:16.712] But what a relief. [06:23:16.712 – 06:23:17.431] What a relief. [06:23:17.431 – 06:23:27.692] That's just a simple kind of an example of if you just think, if you just think, you know, not trying to fix the system, but put yourself in the place of that guy carrying that piece of paper, [06:23:27.692 – 06:23:29.252] and what can we do to make that better? [06:23:29.252 – 06:23:32.732] Uh, you know, treat them like AA members, for one thing. [06:23:32.732 – 06:23:35.232] You know, and, and don't question their credentials and stuff.

[06:23:35.232 – 06:23:43.152] Anyway, ju- just one of a thousand examples of, of, of, of growing in understanding and effectiveness. [06:23:43.152 – 06:23:53.092] Not just thinking about how's my day and all that stuff, but thinking about how can I use my recovery to become an instrument for helping others. [06:23:53.092 – 06:23:55.432] And that's the nature of the game. [06:23:55.432 – 06:24:01.472] We don't, we don't treat the self-centered condition simply by making amends. [06:24:01.472 – 06:24:04.052] We certainly have impact with that. [06:24:04.052 – 06:24:10.812] But we treat the self-centered condition by diligently focusing on how we can be of useful purpose and of service to others.

[06:24:10.812 – 06:24:12.432] That's where the freedom comes. [06:24:12.432 – 06:24:15.132] It's where the joy comes, where the rewards come. [06:24:15.132 – 06:24:24.412] And, uh, so anyway, that's longer than I meant to talk, obviously longer than I meant to talk about understanding and effectiveness. [06:24:24.412 – 06:24:26.752] But I, I do think it's vital, you know. [06:24:26.752 – 06:24:34.272] And, and if you, uh, I'll give you one other little piece of homework which you can take or ignore. [06:24:34.272 – 06:24:44.332] When you go back to your, your place, um, think about in your community, and you won't have to look long, take a look

[06:24:44.332 – 06:24:45.282] at where alcoholics [06:24:45.460 – 06:24:53.220] Folks are hitting the wall, and that's everywhere, and it, it, that includes a detox center, a jail, a minister. [06:24:53.220 – 06:24:56.240] You know, it's amazing how many people go to a minister when they're in trouble. [06:24:56.240 – 06:24:58.080] They don't charge as a rule. [06:24:58.080 – 06:25:00.080] Yeah, where do you go when you're in trouble? [06:25:00.080 – 06:25:01.639] Social services. [06:25:01.639 – 06:25:11.740] Where people hit the wall and the people who deal with the wall-hitting are [06:25:11.740 – 06:25:15.400] equally mystified with the person about what to do. [06:25:15.400 – 06:25:25.480] This is becoming more and more a salient issue as insurance is drying up, and rehabs are

[06:25:25.480 – 06:25:26.840] truly less available. [06:25:26.840 – 06:25:35.660] And, um, so tho- those old automatic responses of put him in detox and all that, that's waning. [06:25:35.660 – 06:25:39.300] And, and, and, and if anybody's gonna fill the gap, it's gonna be us. [06:25:39.300 – 06:25:46.480] So, so take a look, and I, I, I'll tell you what made me got thinking about this thing, uh, uh, specifically that way. [06:25:46.480 – 06:25:49.560] I went over to detox one day, and nobody was in the deal. [06:25:49.560 – 06:25:52.940] And I just happened to, that the dir- director…

[06:25:52.940 – 06:25:59.360] They call it behavioral stuff that deals with everything from, from detox to psych cases and whatever. [06:25:59.360 – 06:26:01.600] It's got a whole range of, of, of troubled people. [06:26:01.600 – 06:26:12.060] So I was talking to her, and I said, "Why is there nobody in, uh, detox?" And I said, "It's 'cause I don't think we wiped out alcoholism in, in this area." She said, "No, we haven't." [06:26:12.060 – 06:26:13.600] And she said, "It's money. [06:26:13.600 – 06:26:20.480] It's money." And, uh, and she said these, uh, generally, uh, a lot of these people don't have insurance.

[06:26:20.480 – 06:26:24.740] And we simply can't take them if there's no payment. [06:26:24.740 – 06:26:25.480] We can't do it. [06:26:25.480 – 06:26:30.860] And so I said, "Well, what happens to them if they come here?" Said, "Well, they'll be down in the emergency room. [06:26:30.860 – 06:26:31.910] That's where we check them in. [06:26:31.910 – 06:26:42.020] And the, and the, the triage person will tell them, 'I'm sorry, but you, you can't go in.'" I said, I said, "Well, what happens to them then?" And she looked like, like [06:26:42.020 – 06:26:43.620] it's a question she'd never considered.

[06:26:43.620 – 06:26:51.320] She said, "You know, I don't know." Well, I don't need to feel superior to her because I didn't know either. [06:26:51.320 – 06:26:53.800] And I'm in the same business she is. [06:26:53.800 – 06:26:56.320] She just is a professional, and I'm, I'm, I'm a rookie. [06:26:56.320 – 06:26:58.580] But we, but I didn't know either. [06:26:58.580 – 06:27:08.700] But that's what I'm talking about, of where somebody hits the wall and both sides of the wall are equally dismayed and, and, and uncertain of what to do. [06:27:08.700 – 06:27:14.300] And so t- take that somewhere where you live, where, where you know folks are hitting the wall.

[06:27:14.300 – 06:27:17.280] Take a look and put that understanding in effectiveness. [06:27:17.280 – 06:27:18.360] What ought to happen? [06:27:18.360 – 06:27:25.030] What ought to happen in the absence of the third-party payment or whatever it takes to get in there? [06:27:25.030 – 06:27:25.880] What needs to happen? [06:27:25.880 – 06:27:30.100] And then when you see that, think about how you can make it happen. [06:27:30.100 – 06:27:34.019] 'Cause that's how stuff gets done to, to me. [06:27:34.019 – 06:27:37.540] And, uh, you can make a great contribution with something like that. [06:27:37.540 – 06:27:45.120] So to me, understanding and effective means a great deal more than having more insight and awareness.

[06:27:45.120 – 06:27:47.020] It, it has a lot more. [06:27:47.020 – 06:27:53.160] It's how to take the gift I've been given and be able to use it for the purpose it was given. [06:27:53.160 – 06:27:57.700] You know, nowhere in the book, uh, does it say this is to make you giddy happy. [06:27:57.700 – 06:28:03.200] You know, what it says is this is to equip you to be of maximum service to God and the folks around you. [06:28:03.200 – 06:28:06.420] There's where giddy happy comes from. [06:28:06.420 – 06:28:09.760] And, uh, so that… [06:28:09.760 – 06:28:13.640] Well, which is line four on chapter 10.

[06:28:13.640 – 06:28:15.690] But any, any, any… [06:28:15.690 – 06:28:17.600] I, I don't wanna just beat on you. [06:28:17.600 – 06:28:18.340] I'd, I'd a lot rather… [06:28:18.340 – 06:28:20.320] You know I'd rather talk with you than to you. [06:28:20.320 – 06:28:23.200] Anybody wanna follow up on any of that thing? [06:28:23.200 – 06:28:26.330] Question, comments, uh, criticism, uh, anything? [06:28:26.330 – 06:28:28.340] I can, I can handle all of that. [06:28:28.340 – 06:28:29.100] Yeah. [06:28:29.100 – 06:28:30.500] Anybody? [06:28:30.500 – 06:28:30.940] Anything? [06:28:30.940 – 06:28:32.440] Yeah. [06:28:32.440 – 06:28:36.620] You're not talking to me, are you, Andrew? [06:28:36.620 – 06:28:38.020] Hmm. [06:28:38.020 – 06:28:41.220] I'm sitting right here. [06:28:41.220 – 06:28:42.359] Good morning. [06:28:42.359 – 06:28:45.280] My name is . [06:28:45.280 – 06:28:46.680] Hello. [06:28:46.680 – 06:28:49.720] Which way you push it, Tom?

[06:28:49.720 – 06:28:50.100] You know? [06:28:50.100 – 06:28:51.640] Oh, okay. [06:28:51.640 – 06:28:54.009] Hello. [06:28:54.009 – 06:28:55.960] Lack of power is your dilemma, Diane. [06:28:55.960 – 06:29:00.340] I'm sorry. [06:29:00.340 – 06:29:01.340] It's all right, dear. [06:29:01.340 – 06:29:03.070] I have something really important to say. [06:29:03.070 – 06:29:03.999] It's Jim's fault. [06:29:03.999 – 06:29:13.960] My son, who is celebrating eight years of sobriety next year, was adjudicated, and he was terrified of being sent to jail. [06:29:13.960 – 06:29:24.200] And so he did take the slips in, and up there, they have to turn it into the secretary before the meeting and pick it up bef- when they leave, which I thought was a good thing.

[06:29:24.200 – 06:29:32.020] Well, when I went up there to visit, excuse me, visit him, he took me to court, and I met the judge. [06:29:32.020 – 06:29:34.100] He took me up and introduced me to the judge. [06:29:34.100 – 06:29:39.660] He conducts AA meetings for some of these people that are sort of lost. [06:29:39.660 – 06:29:41.220] I'm just so proud of him. [06:29:41.220 – 06:29:47.630] I have to say something because he's the one that started it, and he goes to those things religiously every week. [06:29:47.630 – 06:29:52.590] And so it goes along with what you're saying.

[06:29:52.590 – 06:29:56.920] Be observant of what's happening in your community and then do the best you can. [06:29:56.920 – 06:29:57.760] Yeah. [06:29:57.760 – 06:30:02.400] I happen to be good friends of the secretary of the doctors in AA- Mm-hmm … [06:30:02.400 – 06:30:04.440] when they first started up in Ohio. [06:30:04.440 – 06:30:04.610] Mm-hmm. [06:30:04.610 – 06:30:05.040] Luke Reid. [06:30:05.040 – 06:30:06.400] He's passed away. [06:30:06.400 – 06:30:07.620] And we did… [06:30:07.620 – 06:30:08.910] There are so many things. [06:30:08.910 – 06:30:12.390] I just, I just felt I had to brag on my son- Yeah … [06:30:12.390 – 06:30:13.680] because that's the way we do it. [06:30:13.680 – 06:30:14.020] Thank you. [06:30:14.020 – 06:30:15.580] Uh, thanks, Diane. [06:30:15.580 – 06:30:17.080] Yeah.

[06:30:17.080 – 06:30:21.260] Yeah, there's a lot of good news can come out and, uh, the, uh… [06:30:21.260 – 06:30:28.840] Once in a great while, you'll see somebody succeed in spite of it, but, but you, you… [06:30:28.840 – 06:30:29.660] It's rare. [06:30:29.660 – 06:30:30.120] It's rare. [06:30:30.120 – 06:30:38.160] You know, what it really does is deprives the person of the, of the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat. [06:30:38.160 – 06:30:39.620] It takes it out. [06:30:39.620 – 06:30:41.560] Somebody else owns that. [06:30:41.560 – 06:30:49.000] And so rather than, than feeling the juices of, of, of, of, "Thank God I've hung in here-" It, it's compliance.

[06:30:49.000 – 06:30:52.020] You know, T- T- Tebow, if, uh, I don't… [06:30:52.020 – 06:30:53.980] Ray knew him personally, I think. [06:30:53.980 – 06:30:55.400] He's been dead 100 years. [06:30:55.400 – 06:31:00.570] But, but Harry T- Harry, Harry Tebow was a great friend of Alcoholics Anonymous. [06:31:00.570 – 06:31:07.620] He wrote a book called Compliance Versus Surrender in AA, in recovery. [06:31:07.620 – 06:31:13.040] And it's a tremendous book because compliant behavior doesn't give ownership. [06:31:13.040 – 06:31:16.280] What you're doing is just satisfying a taskmaster. [06:31:16.280 – 06:31:26.120] And so it's a, it's a real miracle when somebody gets through that and steps out and starts to feel ownership and responsibility in, in what they're doing.

[06:31:26.120 – 06:31:28.860] So I, I think that's the real undercutting thing of that. [06:31:28.860 – 06:31:34.040] Right now, um, I'm, I'm, as you gathered, I'm pretty active in corrections. [06:31:34.040 – 06:31:36.200] And, uh, I… [06:31:36.200 – 06:31:41.320] A while back, I got 12 people that were seasoned veterans. [06:31:41.320 – 06:31:47.280] I mean, these are people who have done work, and they were experienced enough to understand what effectiveness is. [06:31:47.280 – 06:31:57.740] And, and, and, and what we wanted to ponder for half a day was when we invest so much energy and commitment in, into working with guys in that system,

[06:31:57.800 – 06:32:00.140] why is there such a dismal success rate? [06:32:00.140 – 06:32:07.180] Why do we see so many people look like stormtroopers on the inside, walk out the gate, and fall like a tree? [06:32:07.180 – 06:32:08.840] That's, that's heartbreaking. [06:32:08.840 – 06:32:12.100] And it's really the same thing as, as the court deal. [06:32:12.100 – 06:32:17.780] So we pulled that group together, and we brainstormed, and believe it or not, we wound up with 12 things. [06:32:17.780 – 06:32:20.800] Uh, 12 just seems to resonate with AA somehow. [06:32:20.800 – 06:32:26.020] We, um, we s- we spontaneously wound up with 12.

[06:32:26.020 – 06:32:29.820] Spontaneity for me is when it's well-planned. [06:32:29.820 – 06:32:32.319] And that's what we done. [06:32:32.319 – 06:32:35.180] But, but anyway, wound up in… [06:32:35.180 – 06:32:41.740] What we, what we believed was that w- the lack of sound AA groups was the, was the core problem. [06:32:41.740 – 06:32:51.760] But more important was that, was that the system operated with sorta either coercive or bribery type [06:32:51.760 – 06:32:56.359] things where you get a little pellet for going to AA, or you get a number. [06:32:56.359 – 06:32:58.000] You know, somebody puts a check mark. [06:32:58.000 – 06:33:02.860] And, and, and what that does is exactly the same thing, that you guys…

[06:33:02.860 – 06:33:07.700] And you wind up with a gang of guys sitting in a, in a room who, who don't really wanna be there. [06:33:07.700 – 06:33:17.780] And you wind up feeling like a zookeeper, you know, where, where you instead of conducting a sound meeting for people who wanna engage in AA, you wind up trying to entertain the, the, the, [06:33:17.780 – 06:33:18.360] the, the crowd. [06:33:18.360 – 06:33:22.140] And so you can see why we failed. [06:33:22.140 – 06:33:23.340] You know, w- was so… [06:33:23.340 – 06:33:28.519] To get a, a really truly effective thing done, it's, it's that kind of a, of a deal.

[06:33:28.519 – 06:33:31.300] Uh, we have, we, we, we… [06:33:31.300 – 06:33:41.200] Andrew, you might have been there, but Freedom From Bondage one year, uh, when you're gonna take a real huge step in a direction, you gotta have support of the fellowship. [06:33:41.200 – 06:33:48.040] You know, you gotta have a representative s- s- s, you know, like a group conscious base type of thing. [06:33:48.040 – 06:33:58.120] We posed the question to the Freedom From Bondage, uh, c- conference we have that this, this kind of thing, coercive or reward systems, that w- we

[06:33:58.120 – 06:34:00.910] think are not helpful, and we would, we would r- do… [06:34:00.910 – 06:34:03.200] They should be eliminated up or down. [06:34:03.200 – 06:34:07.660] You think we ought to keep it or, or, or, or see if we ought to get rid of it? [06:34:07.660 – 06:34:18.010] Well, we had 250 people there, and the vote was 250 to none that we needed to s- to, to, to get that scrapped. [06:34:18.010 – 06:34:19.260] We've made a petition. [06:34:19.260 – 06:34:20.160] Now, that gave us… [06:34:20.160 – 06:34:25.380] You can't just d- reach out to one guy s- or one little group of 12, speak out on behalf of the fellowship.

[06:34:25.380 – 06:34:32.800] But now we had the, the, the total of, of representatives at a conference voting en masse. [06:34:32.800 – 06:34:34.140] We, we had a mandate. [06:34:34.140 – 06:34:42.780] And so we, we, uh, sent a, I, I think a pretty good deal to the director of prisons saying we need to, to, to, to get rid of that. [06:34:42.780 – 06:34:43.780] We need to stop it. [06:34:43.780 – 06:34:51.360] We are in the, in the process right now of learning to speak our, a, a, a mutual language. [06:34:51.360 – 06:34:57.880] He, uh, I th- we sent that to him, and the answer came back sounding like he didn't read the letter, y'all.

[06:34:57.880 – 06:35:02.100] So we just sorta have to close that gap, but that, that's what we're trying to do. [06:35:02.100 – 06:35:12.680] And, um, so anyway, it, it, any way you look, if you're looking with hungry eyes for where there's trouble, you, you won't have to look far. [06:35:12.680 – 06:35:15.760] I'll guarantee you, you'll find it very, very close by. [06:35:15.760 – 06:35:20.020] And it's just a matter of sort of conceiving of how can we deal with that better? [06:35:20.020 – 06:35:21.640] And take the lead. [06:35:21.640 – 06:35:22.040] Yeah. [06:35:22.040 – 06:35:23.900] Yeah, that, yeah. [06:35:23.900 – 06:35:26.300] Uh, gotta get, grab mic.

[06:35:26.300 – 06:35:26.440] Yeah. [06:35:27.748 – 06:35:33.008] Sorry about that, but I tell you, it's terrible to get a CD and you got quest- uh, answers with no questions. [06:35:33.008 – 06:35:34.118] Yeah. [06:35:34.118 – 06:35:35.967] I, I, s- I seem to have only questions. [06:35:35.967 – 06:35:37.548] I'm Jim, and an alcoholic. [06:35:37.548 – 06:35:38.508] Hey, Jim. [06:35:38.508 – 06:35:42.128] Hi, everybody, and a member of the Thursday night speaker group in Clearwater. [06:35:42.128 – 06:35:42.538] Mm-hmm. [06:35:42.538 – 06:35:46.238] World famous Thursday night speaker group- … [06:35:46.238 – 06:35:46.238] in Clearwater. [06:35:46.238 – 06:35:47.568] And, uh- Just send it out to the world … [06:35:47.568 – 06:35:47.948] woo-hoo. [06:35:47.948 – 06:35:51.548] And we have a, we have a wonderful, we have a wonderful, uh, group of people there.

[06:35:51.548 – 06:35:51.958] Good. [06:35:51.958 – 06:35:56.188] And we're, uh, uh, we're, we're just a happy, uh, enthusiastic group. [06:35:56.188 – 06:36:06.768] And, um, we're very tight-knit, and, uh, we, uh, we, we have, uh, what we call a, a rule 62 business meeting, uh, that we don't take ourselves, [06:36:06.768 – 06:36:08.348] uh, uh, too bleeping serious. [06:36:08.348 – 06:36:11.648] And, uh, we, we're also very blessed. [06:36:11.648 – 06:36:17.548] We have a treatment center that comes to us, and, um, it's, it's actually more of a halfway house. [06:36:17.548 – 06:36:19.568] It's, it's one of the Peachford, uh, deals.

[06:36:19.568 – 06:36:29.628] And, uh, uh, both men and women, uh, who wanna go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, they have their choices of going to different fellowships, and, and those that wish can come [06:36:29.628 – 06:36:30.348] to our meeting. [06:36:30.348 – 06:36:40.588] And I'm just curious what you think, uh, we might do to get, uh, more fully involved without, um, [06:36:40.588 – 06:36:44.288] uh, without affiliation, of course, you know? [06:36:44.288 – 06:36:44.688] Mm-hmm. [06:36:44.688 – 06:36:52.588] How, how we can better reach out, uh, to e- either Peachford or these young men and women as a group.

[06:36:52.588 – 06:37:00.178] And, uh, I, I'm sitting here, and I've been thinking about this, uh, off and on, um, uh, for a couple of days now. [06:37:00.178 – 06:37:00.448] Mm-hmm. [06:37:00.448 – 06:37:03.847] And, uh, I'd, I'd appreciate any suggestions. [06:37:03.847 – 06:37:03.968] Mm-hmm. [06:37:03.968 – 06:37:04.908] Thanks. [06:37:04.908 – 06:37:07.958] That, uh, that, uh, yeah, I understand, uh, uh, what you're saying. [06:37:07.958 – 06:37:17.968] That, we get, we get a, a, a, particularly, we got a, a women's halfway house that's, uh, pretty close to our meeting, and [06:37:17.968 – 06:37:21.088] so they'll, they'll come to our meeting on a pretty regular basis.

[06:37:21.088 – 06:37:28.348] And it's interesting to watch what happens when, uh, you know, if you're looking for effectiveness, if you wanna look. [06:37:28.348 – 06:37:36.668] It's, nobody plans this, but they act, they c- they act like they're in a herd. [06:37:36.668 – 06:37:41.068] You know, they act like they're, they're in a, in a formation. [06:37:41.068 – 06:37:47.728] You know, they'll, they leave the halfway house i- in a cube, get on the bus in a cube. [06:37:47.728 – 06:37:48.558] All stay together. [06:37:48.558 – 06:37:48.868] Yeah. [06:37:48.868 – 06:37:51.688] And then they get off the bus, and they come in like a group of soldiers.

[06:37:51.688 – 06:37:53.908] Yeah, and they'll sit together. [06:37:53.908 – 06:38:00.468] Well, it's hard to get in a meeting if you bring the house with you, and that's what they're doing. [06:38:00.468 – 06:38:01.828] You know, they're still in the house. [06:38:01.828 – 06:38:03.298] They're, uh… [06:38:03.298 – 06:38:10.828] Now, I like to vest- vest- vest with them in, uh, in a, i- in a spiritual sense. [06:38:10.828 – 06:38:16.368] And, uh, they, so I, sometimes they'll be sitting there, and I'll go over there and direct the choir. [06:38:16.368 – 06:38:19.128] You know, that's, you guys all, all here, you look like the choir.

[06:38:19.128 – 06:38:19.648] Sing. [06:38:19.648 – 06:38:22.028] You know, and they rarely sing, but I do. [06:38:22.028 – 06:38:32.348] And, uh, but it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, a simple thing like that, to me, is a huge barrier to be engaging in Alcoholics [06:38:32.348 – 06:38:32.828] Anonymous. [06:38:32.828 – 06:38:36.068] You might as well be sitting in the living room at the halfway house. [06:38:36.068 – 06:38:40.728] And so, that's what we're trying to do, is, is, is break that up, you know? [06:38:40.728 – 06:38:46.148] And, and, but it's easier said than done because that herd instinct i- is strong.

[06:38:46.148 – 06:38:49.368] And, but any way you can do it to break that up. [06:38:49.368 – 06:38:57.228] You know, we've got three meetings going on at the same time, and if they're over six months, then they'll stay in that halfway house two, usually a year. [06:38:57.228 – 06:38:59.428] And if they get over six months, we encourage them to get out of that. [06:38:59.428 – 06:39:04.368] And, and when they get out of that cube thing, they'll, they'll start integrating with the group. [06:39:04.368 – 06:39:06.468] And, and we'll put them in. [06:39:06.468 – 06:39:11.078] That, like we don't put anybody to really handling the conduct of a meeting till they're over six months.

[06:39:11.078 – 06:39:15.548] Then we'll put them in as sort of co-pilot with somebody, let them break in. [06:39:15.548 – 06:39:17.708] But that, that's the way, one of the ways we approach it. [06:39:17.708 – 06:39:19.688] You know, we'll, we'll, we'll sneak up on it. [06:39:19.688 – 06:39:22.248] I, I would never have done anything… [06:39:22.248 – 06:39:32.288] I, I wouldn't do anything publicly, you know, like saying, "You guys break up," or something like that, because that, that's, I mean, that, you can understand what's happening to them when they're in that [06:39:32.288 – 06:39:36.328] environment, and they're sort of like cattle, uh, b- bunching together in a blizzard, you know.

[06:39:36.328 – 06:39:43.368] So, but it, it is a challenge and, but I think it's well worth tackling because they might as well stay home. [06:39:43.368 – 06:39:45.968] You know, they're just bringing it with them. [06:39:45.968 – 06:39:56.068] So, but that's, I th- I think it's a great challenge and, but just things like that, and, uh, we get them out of there and into the action as quick as we can is, is what we try to do. [06:39:56.068 – 06:39:56.118] Yeah. [06:39:56.118 – 06:39:58.568] Some of them wind up permanent members. [06:39:58.568 – 06:39:59.898] We have greeters.

[06:39:59.898 – 06:40:01.548] Yeah. [06:40:01.548 – 06:40:03.358] And one of our members, uh, or at least one of them- Yeah … [06:40:03.358 – 06:40:04.058] Mike is, Mike Yeah. [06:40:04.058 – 06:40:04.058] Mike Yeah. [06:40:04.058 – 06:40:07.228] Yeah, sorry about that mic thing, but it, yeah. [06:40:07.228 – 06:40:08.988] Yeah. [06:40:08.988 – 06:40:10.508] Yeah. [06:40:10.508 – 06:40:11.508] Microphone, microphone. [06:40:11.508 – 06:40:11.798] Yeah. [06:40:11.798 – 06:40:13.278] I say, uh, we have, we have greeters. [06:40:13.278 – 06:40:21.548] That's one thing that we do, and another thing that we do is at least one of our members consistently sits in the back of the room where the, where, where the treatment folks- Mm-hmm … [06:40:21.548 – 06:40:22.498] uh, tend to congregate.

[06:40:22.498 – 06:40:22.958] Yeah. [06:40:22.958 – 06:40:26.898] You know, in fact, we have one long table that's nothing but treatment guys in the back of the room. [06:40:26.898 – 06:40:26.918] Yeah. [06:40:26.918 – 06:40:28.068] Guys and gals in the back of the room. [06:40:28.068 – 06:40:28.398] Yeah. [06:40:28.398 – 06:40:29.378] So we'll always have- Yeah … [06:40:29.378 – 06:40:31.378] some group members that are consistently- Yeah … [06:40:31.378 – 06:40:32.068] back there- Yeah … [06:40:32.068 – 06:40:33.228] that are like their buddies. [06:40:33.228 – 06:40:33.868] Yeah. [06:40:33.868 – 06:40:34.128] You know? [06:40:34.128 – 06:40:34.518] Mm-hmm. [06:40:34.518 – 06:40:37.118] So we, we've, uh, evolved in a way- Mm-hmm … [06:40:37.118 – 06:40:39.208] to kinda, uh, you know, to kinda- Yeah … [06:40:39.208 – 06:40:40.008] cope with some of this.

[06:40:40.008 – 06:40:40.688] You're pecking at it anyway. [06:40:40.688 – 06:40:43.538] Always looking for better ways to get them more- Yeah … [06:40:43.538 – 06:40:44.978] at ease and, and less- Mm-hmm … [06:40:44.978 – 06:40:46.838] treatment and more in- Yeah … [06:40:46.838 – 06:40:47.328] into the meeting. [06:40:47.328 – 06:40:48.008] Yeah. [06:40:48.008 – 06:40:49.088] Yeah, little things like that help. [06:40:49.088 – 06:40:53.888] I go over and sit down in the middle of them sometimes, you know, just, just to raid their territory. [06:40:53.888 – 06:40:55.408] But those are, go look. [06:40:55.408 – 06:40:57.298] I, I think you gotta have a system. [06:40:57.298 – 06:40:57.658] You go out and stand with the smokers.

[06:40:57.658 – 06:40:59.148] You know, you go out and stand with the smokers. [06:40:59.148 – 06:40:59.568] Yeah. [06:40:59.568 – 06:41:00.588] You learn a lot too. [06:41:00.588 – 06:41:01.568] Yeah, that helps. [06:41:01.568 – 06:41:01.748] Yeah. [06:41:01.748 – 06:41:04.328] Yeah, there's al- always ways to sneak up. [06:41:04.328 – 06:41:04.508] Yeah. [06:41:04.508 – 06:41:05.008] Beth? [06:41:05.008 – 06:41:06.836] Yeah Hi, I'm Beth, I'm an alcoholic. [06:41:06.836 – 06:41:07.686] Hey, Beth. [06:41:07.686 – 06:41:17.846] You know, I, I think that the, the solution, um, one of the solutions, there are obviously there are many, but one of them is, is no different from what we are trying to do in Alcoholics [06:41:17.846 – 06:41:22.236] Anonymous all over, and that is one alcoholic reaching out to another.

[06:41:22.236 – 06:41:24.356] I mean, that's how Alcoholics Anonymous started. [06:41:24.356 – 06:41:34.416] And, and in my group, we have people from, uh, a halfway house, I guess, that come to our group pe- periodically, and we try as individual members of [06:41:34.416 – 06:41:38.026] our group to reach out to individual members when they're- Mm-hmm … [06:41:38.026 – 06:41:38.936] when they're there. [06:41:38.936 – 06:41:44.496] And, and I attended another group for quite a while where the, a, a women's halfway house was bringing meetings. [06:41:44.496 – 06:41:44.505] Mm-hmm. [06:41:44.505 – 06:41:46.526] And I sponsored quite a few of the girls.

[06:41:46.526 – 06:41:48.196] I was temp- temporary sponsor. [06:41:48.196 – 06:41:48.596] Mm-hmm. [06:41:48.596 – 06:41:55.806] Because they are encouraged when they're in the halfway house at many places to get a sponsor, a temporary sponsor, and I sponsored many of them. [06:41:55.806 – 06:42:00.046] And, and I found it was very effective, 'cause I got to talk one-on-one with them, and- Mm-hmm … [06:42:00.046 – 06:42:02.976] they got permission to go out for coffee with me after the meeting. [06:42:02.976 – 06:42:06.196] And, you know, I was willing to bring them back to the halfway house afterwards. [06:42:06.196 – 06:42:14.836] And I don't think it's really any different from what we're doing in Alcoholics Anonymous all over, that what we're trying to do, our whole goal, you know?

[06:42:14.836 – 06:42:17.576] But we're letting the cube exist. [06:42:17.576 – 06:42:23.416] So it, it, it's, it's a formidable barrier that, that, to get through. [06:42:23.416 – 06:42:28.056] Uh, Andrew, go ahead. [06:42:28.056 – 06:42:29.736] I… [06:42:29.736 – 06:42:30.266] I'm an alcoholic. [06:42:30.266 – 06:42:31.276] My name's Andrew Wilson. [06:42:31.276 – 06:42:33.506] Andrew. [06:42:33.506 – 06:42:33.526] Andrew. [06:42:33.526 – 06:42:44.116] At the beginning of the weekend, um, one of the things that I referenced was something that you did very, very effectively in Fort Lauderdale when you were talking about treatment, and [06:42:44.116 – 06:42:46.596] we've talked at about four angles of this. [06:42:46.596 – 06:42:56.856] But what I would like to ask you to do at this moment is to go straight at that, because what you were talking about in Fort Lauderdale in terms of the effect

[06:42:56.856 – 06:43:07.386] of, the effect of treatment facilities and our relationship with them on our effectiveness had to do with one-dimensional [06:43:07.386 – 06:43:12.376] groups and one-dimensional meetings that practiced one legacy only. [06:43:12.376 – 06:43:13.716] Mm-hmm. [06:43:13.716 – 06:43:17.376] Those recovery-only environments- Yeah … [06:43:17.376 – 06:43:21.696] where you couldn't find the other two legs of the stool. [06:43:21.696 – 06:43:25.556] And, and you've addressed that so effectively. [06:43:25.556 – 06:43:26.906] Yeah. [06:43:26.906 – 06:43:29.076] And I, I think that's a core issue here. [06:43:29.076 – 06:43:29.556] Yeah. [06:43:29.556 – 06:43:31.596] Would you mind talking about that for just a minute? [06:43:31.596 – 06:43:32.636] Well, I'll try. [06:43:32.636 – 06:43:34.776] Now, I'm blessed with an incredibly poor memory.

[06:43:34.776 – 06:43:39.556] I, you know, I don't remember Fort Lauderdale much less Yeah. [06:43:39.556 – 06:43:41.196] Yeah, no, that was unforgettable. [06:43:41.196 – 06:43:45.556] That, I, I think I, I know what you're talking about to, to some extent. [06:43:45.556 – 06:43:55.666] That it, it's, you gotta go back to a fundamental belief of mine is, is, uh, when you try to patch up a program, you know, you try [06:43:55.666 – 06:44:02.856] to tie into a program, you always meet resistance 'cause as people start a program, they develop loyalty to it. [06:44:02.856 – 06:44:08.416] And so when you go in and you start trying to, to, to promote change, people don't like change.

[06:44:08.416 – 06:44:11.736] You know, they, they, they like to find a comfort zone and stay there. [06:44:11.736 – 06:44:15.176] Uh, what, what, there's two ways. [06:44:15.176 – 06:44:18.116] You, you're familiar with that four-step process that, that I use. [06:44:18.116 – 06:44:28.416] I, I, in, in developing programs, I, I set up a little thing just for myself, and then, then a lot of other people grabbed onto it, that [06:44:28.416 – 06:44:29.596] if I'm gonna set up a… [06:44:29.596 – 06:44:38.396] I believe that a program has to be designed and development, developed to fit the environment it's gonna serve.

[06:44:38.396 – 06:44:47.116] Now, that sounds a little bit, little bit Freudian, but, but the program has gotta fit the reality that it's gonna deal with. [06:44:47.116 – 06:44:54.696] Like I've seen people try to, uh, do a big book meeting in an overnight lockup. [06:44:54.696 – 06:44:56.416] Well, that's ludicrous. [06:44:56.416 – 06:44:58.016] I mean, my God, what are you doing? [06:44:58.016 – 06:44:59.776] Uh, you might as well just fan them with it. [06:44:59.776 – 06:45:00.416] That- Yeah … [06:45:00.416 – 06:45:01.636] I mean, it has absolutely… [06:45:01.636 – 06:45:04.516] But anyway, it's just well-intended. [06:45:04.516 – 06:45:09.056] So you, you get folk, and we believe that book's a powerful thing, but you gotta…

[06:45:09.056 – 06:45:14.576] It'd be like trying to do it in a airport, you know, doing it in a, in an overnight l- lockup type of thing. [06:45:14.576 – 06:45:24.815] And so when, when, if I'm gonna s- start a program or restart, you know, sometimes they'll sort of die in the traces. [06:45:24.815 – 06:45:32.376] If I'm gonna be involved in it, number one, I insist on meeting with the top person. [06:45:32.376 – 06:45:39.656] If I'm gonna meet, work with, with, with, like that head of that behavioral unit, I'm not gonna meet with the secretary.

[06:45:39.656 – 06:45:45.916] I mean, I'll be nice to her, and we'll have a good friendship, but I'm not gonna negotiate with her because she doesn't bo… [06:45:45.916 – 06:45:47.816] Well, a lot of times secretary is the boss. [06:45:47.816 – 06:45:58.036] But I want to talk to the number one person because if the number one person is nodding affirmatively, it's amazing how many other people [06:45:58.036 – 06:45:59.136] nod affirmatively. [06:45:59.136 – 06:46:00.186] Yeah. [06:46:00.186 – 06:46:04.276] And so when you start at the bottom of the food chain, that's where you're gonna stay. [06:46:04.276 – 06:46:07.756] And so, you know, I think you've gotta have, if you go-

[06:46:08.030 – 06:46:12.510] You've gotta have, uh, some people that want to do, cooperate what you're doing. [06:46:12.510 – 06:46:14.350] Set that cooperative relationship. [06:46:14.350 – 06:46:19.510] I always tell the, the top person that if we do this right, you and I never need to meet again. [06:46:19.510 – 06:46:23.289] That if, if we don't do it right and it's big trouble, then we might. [06:46:23.289 – 06:46:26.190] But otherwise, goodbye, I won't see you. [06:46:26.190 – 06:46:33.950] And then to, to, to set up a program, I think you gotta, gotta learn what the environment is.

[06:46:33.950 – 06:46:42.650] A lot of time we'll s- we'll, we'll, we'll say we're go- gonna go set up a program somewhere, we'll have it made up before we even know what the place is. [06:46:42.650 – 06:46:44.690] We've already decided what we're gonna do. [06:46:44.690 – 06:46:48.290] But I think you gotta get a feel for who's in there. [06:46:48.290 – 06:46:50.070] How old are they? [06:46:50.070 – 06:46:53.270] What kind of, of time are they gonna be there? [06:46:53.270 – 06:46:55.350] What language do they speak? [06:46:55.350 – 06:47:01.130] You know, the, I mean, there are a lot of, of questions that really impact what kind of a program you're gonna do.

[06:47:01.130 – 06:47:10.270] And, uh, and now when you got the basic ingredients, you know, about access and all this kind of stuff, you know, then you can put together a program that fits. [06:47:10.270 – 06:47:13.650] And if it doesn't fit, it's not gonna work well. [06:47:13.650 – 06:47:19.110] And so when we design a program, what I wanna do is make sure that it doesn't disrupt anything. [06:47:19.110 – 06:47:23.390] That we agree on a time, place, and all that stuff, and then we can take care of business. [06:47:23.390 – 06:47:25.890] Now to me, that's fundamental.

[06:47:25.890 – 06:47:28.030] That's like building the foundation of a house. [06:47:28.030 – 06:47:30.870] If you don't build it, your house ain't gonna stand. [06:47:30.870 – 06:47:39.990] And, and so that, that's the way I like to go about it so that it's a committed action and it's not just some herky-jerky thing that's just thrown together. [06:47:39.990 – 06:47:43.990] And so a lot of time we'll go somewhere, we'd like to s- set up a meeting here. [06:47:43.990 – 06:47:44.890] Okay, fine. [06:47:44.890 – 06:47:45.910] What do you wanna do? [06:47:45.910 – 06:47:47.010] We'll meet Tuesday night. [06:47:47.010 – 06:47:50.630] You know, well, that's a little reckless, a little reckless.

[06:47:50.630 – 06:47:59.130] And so if you really wanna do something that's, that, that, that has cooperative relationship, that kind of thing, uh, to me, that's the way to go about it. [06:47:59.130 – 06:48:01.430] And it very important that, um… [06:48:01.430 – 06:48:06.290] Well, anyway, it's, uh, well, it's one example. [06:48:06.290 – 06:48:16.490] We just, latest thing we set up, we, we, we decided on detox to start giving us a little packet, not a b- big literature chest, but a little packet of what we think are some key pamphlets.

[06:48:16.490 – 06:48:19.190] We want it to be from us. [06:48:19.190 – 06:48:28.530] Well, we, we, we took it in, and what we found a- and, and I mean, they didn't mean any harm, but the staff were distributing that with their goodbye package. [06:48:28.530 – 06:48:34.750] Well, I don't want them to be thinking that our material is provided by the hospital. [06:48:34.750 – 06:48:38.040] We want them to know that we came, and we left something. [06:48:38.040 – 06:48:42.550] You know, and they've come from the primary purpose group of Alcoholics Anonymous. [06:48:42.550 – 06:48:47.730] Now, that's a little thing, but sometimes those little things are what connect.

[06:48:47.730 – 06:48:52.650] And, and so it, just, just, I mean, it's just a matter of, of, of working out relationships. [06:48:52.650 – 06:49:01.330] And so I personally, I mean, y'all do what you want to, I will never start a program anywhere without meeting with the top person. [06:49:01.330 – 06:49:02.610] Just won't do it. [06:49:02.610 – 06:49:03.710] I'm not gonna waste my time. [06:49:03.710 – 06:49:12.710] But that, I, I have a lot of people that, um, that will buck on it a little bit, you know, like prison wardens. [06:49:12.710 – 06:49:15.369] They're pretty tough to wrestle to the floor.

[06:49:15.369 – 06:49:17.050] But you can do it. [06:49:17.050 – 06:49:17.990] You, you can do it. [06:49:17.990 – 06:49:19.869] But you just got… [06:49:19.869 – 06:49:23.090] And, and, and, and what I do is go in there as a citizen. [06:49:23.090 – 06:49:25.290] I'm a citizen. [06:49:25.290 – 06:49:30.830] I'm concerned about how our folks are treated in, in correctional facilities. [06:49:30.830 – 06:49:32.990] I wanna see them come out of there better. [06:49:32.990 – 06:49:37.290] And so I, I always wanna be prepared, and that's what my game plan is. [06:49:37.290 – 06:49:39.190] I'm not here to tell you how to run this prison. [06:49:39.190 – 06:49:45.690] I'm here to say that the folks from our community who are in this prison, we want them to come back ready to be citizens.

[06:49:45.690 – 06:49:47.690] We're concerned about it. [06:49:47.690 – 06:49:48.750] It's a huge problem. [06:49:48.750 – 06:49:49.970] We wanna do something about it. [06:49:49.970 – 06:49:54.290] So you know, what, what we wanna start out with is mutual respect. [06:49:54.290 – 06:49:58.130] That we're not going there hat in hand and apologizing for bothering. [06:49:58.130 – 06:49:58.970] No. [06:49:58.970 – 06:50:03.290] We're doing the same thing you're doing, but we're doing it as volunteers. [06:50:03.290 – 06:50:04.990] You're doing it professionally. [06:50:04.990 – 06:50:14.990] And I don't mind telling you that if I run into one that, uh, I mean, I just simply as a citizen, [06:50:14.990 – 06:50:24.869] I won't stand for some fairly decently paid manager of a state system refusing to deliver services that he's paid to deliver.

[06:50:24.869 – 06:50:28.830] You can bet that my meeting with him won't be the last meeting. [06:50:28.830 – 06:50:34.509] If, if you ever run into one that just says that we're not doing anything, there'll be another meeting, but it won't be with him. [06:50:34.509 – 06:50:40.590] And, uh, so but that, I mean, that's just, uh, that's not trying to start a war. [06:50:40.590 – 06:50:44.030] It, it's trying to develop mutual respect. [06:50:44.030 – 06:50:48.130] You know, we're not street corner thugs going in here trying to find a place to hang out.

[06:50:48.130 – 06:50:52.010] We are citizens who are concerned about our folks who are locked up. [06:50:52.010 – 06:50:55.090] We pay a lot of money to run these stupid places. [06:50:55.090 – 06:50:57.110] And by golly, we're gonna do something. [06:50:57.110 – 06:50:59.670] And so we'd, we'd… [06:50:59.670 – 06:51:02.440] That, that, do you remember that crazy doc I was talking about? [06:51:02.440 – 06:51:08.050] Right now I've got him middle, in the middle of a third world war with a warden. [06:51:08.050 – 06:51:12.300] And he's fighting nobly, I tell you what. [06:51:12.300 – 06:51:14.430] And I think, I think he'll come out okay.

[06:51:14.430 – 06:51:19.350] But anyway, that sometimes it's lovey-dovey, and most of the time it is. [06:51:19.350 – 06:51:21.629] You know, sometimes it's, uh, yeah, let's work together. [06:51:21.629 – 06:51:25.390] Let's, like Rodney King, can't we just all get along here, you know? [06:51:25.390 – 06:51:30.190] And but sometimes you just gotta go to it and say, "No, this is important. [06:51:30.190 – 06:51:32.750] This is not some throwaway recreational activity. [06:51:32.750 – 06:51:36.530] This, this is dealing with the biggest problem in corrections. [06:51:36.530 – 06:51:46.590] And I'm not gonna let some bureaucrat say, 'No, we won't deal with it.' Baloney." And so now I don't go in to fight, but I'm ready, you know, if I have

[06:51:46.590 – 06:51:46.710] to. [06:51:46.710 – 06:51:55.070] And, um, I'd, I'd tell you one thing, and then we'll take a, take a, just a short little break 'cause y'all help me catch that airplane now. [06:51:55.070 – 06:52:05.330] But I'll give you one little, little example of that, Andrew, with, uh, I'll, I'll abbreviate it, but anyway, we were trying, we had a [06:52:06.150 – 06:52:06.150] … [06:52:06.150 – 06:52:16.190] I told the director of the prison one time, I thought that we had maniacs trying to figure out where to place prisons, because what they would do is find the most desolate part of the state with

[06:52:16.190 – 06:52:19.240] no population And stick the prison in there. [06:52:19.240 – 06:52:21.880] Well, my God, they can't even hire staff. [06:52:21.880 – 06:52:25.900] So how are we gonna mobilize resource people to go in and work for free? [06:52:25.900 – 06:52:33.819] And so I told him, I, and I accused him of doing– I said, "You're the man that," publicly accused him as being the guy that located these suckers. [06:52:33.819 – 06:52:41.040] He said, "Not me." And but anyway, we, we– they put three prison, big prisons in one little town. [06:52:41.040 – 06:52:48.340] And, and they– if you had every citizen in town to, to work in it, it wouldn't be enough.

[06:52:48.340 – 06:52:52.460] And, uh, so they hollered help, and so we, we started dealing with… [06:52:52.460 – 06:52:58.709] And, and, and it was fairly simple that, that we– you try to understand, eh? [06:52:58.709 – 06:53:04.100] You got an overwhelming presence of prisons and a, and, and an underwhelming presence of people. [06:53:04.100 – 06:53:05.800] So what are you gonna do? [06:53:05.800 – 06:53:08.470] If they're not in the town, you're gonna have to widen your circle, eh? [06:53:08.470 – 06:53:09.840] You're gonna have to reach out. [06:53:09.840 – 06:53:18.520] So what we, what we proposed there was something new to our system, that we operate with revolving teams of people.

[06:53:18.520 – 06:53:28.540] And, uh, that we would identify twelve cities that were within reasonable driving distance and set up with teams of three to come in at each time, one of the, [06:53:28.540 – 06:53:30.600] one of the, one– somebody would be in a prison. [06:53:30.600 – 06:53:35.340] And that, and that way you got people traveling together, sharing expense, stuff like that. [06:53:35.340 – 06:53:38.600] Well, it was, it's simple, you know, to, to put together. [06:53:38.600 – 06:53:43.940] Well, I, I thought that was so brilliant that anybody would jump on it.

[06:53:43.940 – 06:53:47.140] But not if you're just sorta sitting there waiting to retire. [06:53:47.140 – 06:53:49.260] You may not be inclined to jump on it. [06:53:49.260 – 06:53:59.960] And so, we waited, uh, what I thought was a more than generous time, and, um, communicated [06:53:59.960 – 06:54:02.680] with the top dog o-of that out– of that area. [06:54:02.680 – 06:54:05.580] And that dude didn't even answer the mail. [06:54:05.580 – 06:54:07.900] I mean, he didn't return phone calls, didn't answer the mail. [06:54:07.900 – 06:54:10.060] And, and I'm a nice guy. [06:54:10.060 – 06:54:13.360] But I'll be doggone if I'm gonna handle that kind of junk.

[06:54:13.360 – 06:54:17.720] And so I wrote him a letter that, uh, that he wouldn't wanna show to his mama. [06:54:17.720 – 06:54:26.719] And ta– and said, just any– and, and said, you know, "Let's get it on." And, and so we had to have a meeting with nobody but me and him. [06:54:26.719 – 06:54:31.860] And, um, so he agreed, uh, 'cause he knew what was coming if he didn't. [06:54:31.860 – 06:54:37.280] And so he agreed, and we met in a brilliant meeting. [06:54:37.280 – 06:54:39.000] Now, I was ready. [06:54:39.000 – 06:54:40.520] I was well prepared.

[06:54:40.520 – 06:54:45.420] And I, I t– and I told him, I said, "Look, I'm, I don't– I'm a citizen. [06:54:45.420 – 06:54:47.080] I'm here because I'm concerned. [06:54:47.080 – 06:54:48.960] I think alcohol is the biggest problem you got. [06:54:48.960 – 06:54:56.520] I think at least t-at, at least two-thirds of the population, uh, have the, the problem." Now, I'm not talking about they drink. [06:54:56.520 – 06:54:57.940] I'm talking about a disability. [06:54:57.940 – 06:55:04.480] If they, if these folks drink, they self-destruct at a minimum and usually are destructive to others. [06:55:04.480 – 06:55:06.620] And I said, "Now, I believe that.

[06:55:06.620 – 06:55:09.200] If you don't believe that, that's your business. [06:55:09.200 – 06:55:12.440] But, uh, because I believe it, I wanna do something about it. [06:55:12.440 – 06:55:14.499] And I hope you do. [06:55:14.499 – 06:55:21.860] If you don't, we got nothing to talk about." Now, that says, that's just how warm and inviting that meeting was. [06:55:21.860 – 06:55:27.180] Because if, if, if, if we couldn't agree on, we got a problem, wanna do something about it, what are we gonna talk about? [06:55:27.180 – 06:55:30.760] You know, anyway, we had a meeting. [06:55:30.760 – 06:55:34.640] We, we, uh, uh, but anyway, went from there.

[06:55:34.640 – 06:55:43.400] But, but sometimes setting up programs, it, it's, it's, it's, it's g– I think it's good not to look for trouble. [06:55:43.400 – 06:55:44.840] But God, God, I don't look for trouble. [06:55:44.840 – 06:55:46.920] I, I can fight enough at home with my wife. [06:55:46.920 – 06:55:48.920] I don't need to go hunting more. [06:55:48.920 – 06:55:57.580] But, but y-y-you, sometimes you just gotta present your case forcibly and, and not let somebody push you around. [06:55:57.580 – 06:56:07.059] And so, you know, a lot of time we'll approach it as if we're humbly saying, "Can we come in here?" Well, baloney, that's a public facility for God's sakes.

[06:56:07.059 – 06:56:11.400] And, uh, you know, we're gonna go in there apologizing for showing up. [06:56:11.400 – 06:56:12.480] I'm not. [06:56:12.480 – 06:56:17.520] And, and, and so I think that, that thing is, it's about developing respect. [06:56:17.520 – 06:56:23.660] And, and I get along with, I think, every warden in the state that I– well, everyone that I know. [06:56:23.660 – 06:56:33.660] And, uh, so but I, I just put a little vigor in that be-because we have a track record of, of just approaching it hat in hand and, and apologizing [06:56:33.660 – 06:56:34.279] for bothering them.

[06:56:34.279 – 06:56:38.740] So I don't, just don't think it's the way to do business. [06:56:38.740 – 06:56:41.440] And, and, and I'm not talking about being a jackass. [06:56:41.440 – 06:56:47.720] I'm just talking about being committed to a plan, to a, to a, to a need and insisting that we, we do something. [06:56:47.720 – 06:56:49.010] Those are our facilities [06:56:50.098 – 06:56:51.158] We're not intruders. [06:56:51.158 – 06:56:52.578] Those are our facilities. [06:56:52.578 – 06:56:54.678] And if we want to work, I think that's… [06:56:54.678 – 06:56:58.137] Anyway, there's enough said about, about that. [06:56:58.137 – 06:57:03.758] But the thing of setting up programs, I think it's awfully important to get a level of, of support.

[06:57:03.758 – 06:57:13.958] When I was an area chair for North Carolina, the number one problem for corrections, number one problem I saw was that the, the, was the lack of, [06:57:13.958 – 06:57:16.348] of, of respect and communication. [06:57:16.348 – 06:57:20.058] Over the years, we had drifted to the bottom of the food chain. [06:57:20.058 – 06:57:26.518] And, uh, and, and the first thing I saw was, my God, man, we're gonna have to do something to jack that up. [06:57:26.518 – 06:57:29.538] And, uh, so there was a strategy for that, you know.

[06:57:29.538 – 06:57:38.658] So anything you're looking at, if you just sort of think about it just the way the book says, to try to understand and, and, and understand what's more effective. [06:57:38.658 – 06:57:40.057] You know, what is an effective thing to do? [06:57:40.057 – 06:57:45.838] My experience has been that when I go into a meeting like that, I'm well-prepared. [06:57:45.838 – 06:57:48.838] I don't ever go in there and say, "We got a problem. [06:57:48.838 – 06:57:55.598] What do you want to do about it?" I don't ever ask the folks in those kind of systems, "What do you want to do?" Because I never like what they want to do.

[06:57:55.598 – 06:58:01.238] And so when I go in, I not only know what the problem is, but I got a solution laid out beside it. [06:58:01.238 – 06:58:07.398] I don't think that they have ever failed to adopt the solution we offer. [06:58:07.398 – 06:58:08.058] Yeah. [06:58:08.058 – 06:58:11.158] So it's, it's just, it's not a matter of starting a war. [06:58:11.158 – 06:58:15.678] It's, it's a matter of establishing respect that, uh, we're not intruders. [06:58:15.678 – 06:58:16.778] You know, these are our places. [06:58:16.778 – 06:58:17.838] We want to be of service. [06:58:17.838 – 06:58:21.288] And, uh, so anyway, to, to…

[06:58:21.288 – 06:58:23.298] I beat that dog pretty hard, I guess. [06:58:23.298 – 06:58:25.738] Yeah. [06:58:25.738 – 06:58:25.978] Yeah. [06:58:25.978 – 06:58:35.458] Woody says, "Break." Let's, let's break and, uh, if you come on back at 11:00 so I can get the, the other part in and we can, uh, get to the airport. [06:58:35.458 – 06:58:35.698] Yeah. [06:58:35.698 – 06:58:38.138] Oh, yeah. [06:58:38.138 – 06:58:41.238] Gears a little bit. [06:58:41.238 – 06:58:42.718] Well, not a whole bunch. [06:58:42.718 – 06:58:47.378] Different, different, uh, different thrust, but, uh, same ballpark. [06:58:47.378 – 06:58:54.818] Uh, probably that last session sounds like you joined the Green Berets instead of Alcoholics Anonymous. [06:58:54.818 – 06:58:58.598] Let's go out and take the beach, no matter whose beach it is.

[06:58:58.598 – 06:59:02.757] And that, that has its place, but it's not all that, though. [06:59:02.757 – 06:59:10.558] Um, you know, service is, is, is not climb- climbing the Himalayan mountains. [06:59:10.558 – 06:59:17.398] You know, it, it's, it's, it's a, it's a thing of just sharing what you've got in the, in the area that, that, that you're comfortable operating in. [06:59:17.398 – 06:59:26.498] And, and I, I believe that everybody who comes in here, that everybody will find an avenue of service if they're looking for it. [06:59:26.498 – 06:59:29.498] And, um, and it won't be the same thing.

[06:59:29.498 – 06:59:30.458] It, it, it, it's… [06:59:30.458 – 06:59:33.898] I've got an avenue that's just right for me so far. [06:59:33.898 – 06:59:41.538] And, um, and I was at a meeting one time and I was doing– I, I– For some reason, I brought up a lot of stuff about CPC. [06:59:41.538 – 06:59:45.998] There was a big anniversary eat and meet down on the coast of North Carolina. [06:59:45.998 – 06:59:56.418] And a guy came up to me afterward and he said, "You know, I really like what you were saying, but, uh, some of that I didn't know what you were talking about." He said, "What's CPC?"

[06:59:56.418 – 06:59:59.538] And I guess I'd used the acronym rather than the name and, and, uh… [06:59:59.538 – 07:00:01.178] So I told him what it was. [07:00:01.178 – 07:00:11.318] And he said, "I, I hate to tell you this, but I've been in AA twenty-two years, and so far I have not done [07:00:11.318 – 07:00:21.518] one single thing that you could call service." He said, "I don't know what to do." And I said, "Well, tell me what you did for a living when you were working [07:00:21.518 – 07:00:31.558] instead of loafing." And, uh, he said, "I was an accountant, a CPA." And, and I said, "Well, how about that?" I said, "Do you know that

[07:00:31.558 – 07:00:35.358] they got dummies like me handling the money?" My God. [07:00:35.358 – 07:00:38.098] You t- you talk about careless and reckless stuff. [07:00:38.098 – 07:00:39.878] I mean, you are a natural. [07:00:39.878 – 07:00:41.158] You need no training. [07:00:41.158 – 07:00:43.818] For God's sakes, let somebody know that. [07:00:43.818 – 07:00:49.028] And but, I mean, you just don't think about it because you think service is going out and healing people or something. [07:00:49.028 – 07:00:54.758] But, you know, anything we do that's a contribution to others is service, you know, no matter what it is. [07:00:54.758 – 07:00:57.418] You look at the Third Legacy manual, they got a great description.

[07:00:57.418 – 07:00:58.558] You know, it's a… [07:00:58.558 – 07:01:00.738] Lady brought me a cup of coffee. [07:01:00.738 – 07:01:02.518] That's service, you know. [07:01:02.518 – 07:01:04.857] And somebody was thoughtful and generous. [07:01:04.857 – 07:01:06.697] Diane did. [07:01:06.697 – 07:01:20.087] Hobbled up there, fifty years sober legs, suffering just to help out a f- But [07:01:20.087 – 07:01:20.858] that's service. [07:01:20.858 – 07:01:24.018] You know, that's ser- And so it can be simple stuff, you know. [07:01:24.018 – 07:01:31.598] But God, is it so valuable to find something that you start feeling that freedom and feeling the joy, feeling the rewards that, that come. [07:01:31.598 – 07:01:33.128] I, I…

[07:01:33.128 – 07:01:37.838] Naturally, I'm gonna tell you my experience rather than, than my philosophy, if I try to. [07:01:37.838 – 07:01:40.018] I tell you what I do. [07:01:40.018 – 07:01:45.157] And, and one thing I want to get at is what happens when your life gets crowded with stuff. [07:01:45.157 – 07:01:53.058] Yeah, I think when, when, when, when, when I'm doing workshops or something like that, one of the most dominant questions is, how do you achieve balance? [07:01:53.058 – 07:01:59.738] You know, how do you do these things and get up– caught up in a lot of hectic activity and still have a balanced life, you know, between?

[07:01:59.738 – 07:02:03.998] And so I want to try to just get into that right before we leave. [07:02:03.998 – 07:02:09.698] And you gonna, you gonna say, "Get on the bus, Gus." And, and I… [07:02:09.698 – 07:02:10.198] Okay. [07:02:10.198 – 07:02:11.078] All right. [07:02:11.078 – 07:02:13.438] And I wi- I will ob- heed and obey. [07:02:13.438 – 07:02:15.038] And so the, uh… [07:02:15.038 – 07:02:25.138] But anyway, let me tell you, let me tell you, uh, a little bit, just a little bit about how I operate in, uh, in terms of, of, of finding my place. [07:02:25.138 – 07:02:27.498] You know, and, and the, the book goes into it, but I won't read it.

[07:02:27.498 – 07:02:30.498] I'll just share the experience with, uh, the way I do it. [07:02:30.498 – 07:02:34.818] Um, I've, you know, you know… [07:02:34.818 – 07:02:36.218] I'm not a religious guy. [07:02:36.218 – 07:02:38.078] I'm, I'm a deeply spiritual guy. [07:02:38.078 – 07:02:40.598] And, uh, but, but I'm not religious. [07:02:40.598 – 07:02:43.478] You know, I don't have mantras and hum and sing stuff. [07:02:43.478 – 07:02:46.918] You know, I, I, I'm, I'm just a w- a working God. [07:02:46.918 – 07:02:48.618] You know, I, I, I w- I work for God. [07:02:48.618 – 07:02:49.398] That's my boss. [07:02:49.398 – 07:02:53.278] And, uh, so I don't get caught up in a lot of rituals and stuff like that.

[07:02:53.278 – 07:02:57.666] I've got a deal that I do Every morning. [07:02:57.666 – 07:02:59.446] Yeah, I did it looking at the oce- at the… [07:02:59.446 – 07:03:01.626] Is that the ocean or the Gulf over there? [07:03:01.626 – 07:03:02.596] The Gulf. [07:03:02.596 – 07:03:02.806] Huh? [07:03:02.806 – 07:03:04.386] The Gulf. [07:03:04.386 – 07:03:04.925] The Gulf, okay. [07:03:04.925 – 07:03:07.366] Everything look wild enough out there. [07:03:07.366 – 07:03:09.226] But anyway, I, I didn't wanna get in it. [07:03:09.226 – 07:03:12.346] The, uh, every morn- And I love water. [07:03:12.346 – 07:03:13.546] I just absolutely love it. [07:03:13.546 – 07:03:19.846] If, if, if, if, if I had time, I'd go out there and sit on that beach and stare at my navel and chase crabs and find shells.

[07:03:19.846 – 07:03:21.706] The, uh… [07:03:21.706 – 07:03:22.605] And I, I like that. [07:03:22.605 – 07:03:26.346] I love mountain streams, uh, 'cause there's just something peaceful about that. [07:03:26.346 – 07:03:27.146] It's refreshing. [07:03:27.146 – 07:03:36.606] And so I got an, uh I got an urge to put a pond in my backyard, you know. [07:03:36.606 – 07:03:41.626] Not a huge thing to drive a boat in, but just a pond with a little waterfall, yeah. [07:03:41.626 – 07:03:44.346] Now my wife is from Saskatchewan. [07:03:44.346 – 07:03:47.126] That is drier than a bone. [07:03:47.126 – 07:03:49.466] And that girl hates water. [07:03:49.466 – 07:03:50.066] She just… [07:03:50.066 – 07:03:54.726] We went to Mexico a couple weeks ago, got sicker than a dog when I finally conned her onto a boat.

[07:03:54.726 – 07:03:56.466] She's not gonna let me do it again. [07:03:56.466 – 07:03:59.006] And, uh, so she didn't like water. [07:03:59.006 – 07:04:04.286] So I started telling her, I said, "Wouldn't you like to get a pond out in our backyard? [07:04:04.286 – 07:04:14.836] It'd just be so beautiful." And she said, "What for?" I said, "Well, I think it's just nice, and I think it would be good, and I like to sit out there," and [07:04:14.836 – 07:04:15.946] she wasn't buying a thing. [07:04:15.946 – 07:04:24.006] So now I think manipulation is proper if it has a spiritual basis.

[07:04:24.006 – 07:04:29.946] You know, it's, uh, it's all right, you know, 'cause God, God's blessing. [07:04:29.946 – 07:04:35.806] Uh, so I gave her a pond for her 33rd wedding anniversary. [07:04:35.806 – 07:04:44.266] And she, she, she said, "Good try, big guy." And but we had the pond, you know. [07:04:44.266 – 07:04:48.666] And, and once in a while she'll go out there now and sit, and, uh, I even let her feed the fish. [07:04:48.666 – 07:04:49.726] I wouldn't let her feed them for a while. [07:04:49.726 – 07:04:51.066] I thought she'd poison them or something.

[07:04:51.066 – 07:04:53.266] But, but it is working out. [07:04:53.266 – 07:04:59.686] Now, now I wanted that selfishly, but well I do think it's a beautiful kind of a thing, you know. [07:04:59.686 – 07:05:06.886] And but I wanted it because when, when, when I do my preparation in the day, I like to have… [07:05:06.886 – 07:05:08.306] I mean, the setting's not everything. [07:05:08.306 – 07:05:10.606] My God, I do it sometimes driving down the highway. [07:05:10.606 – 07:05:12.966] It doesn't require, you know, some plush place. [07:05:12.966 – 07:05:17.236] But I just like to get by that, that, that thing and listen to the water.

[07:05:17.236 – 07:05:23.286] And so what I do e- every morning is I go out there and sit down, and I'll just listen. [07:05:23.286 – 07:05:27.066] Uh, now you probably not like this, but my mind never stops. [07:05:27.066 – 07:05:30.846] I mean, that sucker is just racing about everything and nothing. [07:05:30.846 – 07:05:35.075] And so I sit there and listen to that water, and amazing it does its work, you know. [07:05:35.075 – 07:05:41.746] And I start quietening down, and I get to a place where I'm, I'm, I'm sort of not dealing with stuff that's not here yet.

[07:05:41.746 – 07:05:42.866] You know, I get that out of the way. [07:05:42.866 – 07:05:44.046] Get down to business. [07:05:44.046 – 07:05:50.226] Then I do three things that, that are routine, uh, but it, it'll come out a little different. [07:05:50.226 – 07:05:52.226] And I do literally do it. [07:05:52.226 – 07:05:53.166] I do it on planes. [07:05:53.166 – 07:05:55.376] I do it in, uh, in, uh, cars, walking. [07:05:55.376 – 07:05:58.106] I mean, it, it doesn't require this, but that's just a nice place. [07:05:58.106 – 07:06:06.826] Three things that I do every day is, one, I, I, I remind myself and get in touch with who I am.

[07:06:06.826 – 07:06:10.066] Yeah, who am I as a, as a human being? [07:06:10.066 – 07:06:14.026] I'm a guy, and I remind myself of it every day. [07:06:14.026 – 07:06:17.726] I'm a guy who by any standard ought to be dead. [07:06:17.726 – 07:06:19.566] There's no question about it. [07:06:19.566 – 07:06:27.426] By any standard, by any measure, yeah, there's no way I can explain why I'm still here, 'cause it just should not have happened. [07:06:27.426 – 07:06:33.686] Not only just because of my wild and crazy life, but because of my condition. [07:06:33.686 – 07:06:35.566] I'm an alcoholic. [07:06:35.566 – 07:06:39.366] I mean, I am slam, total slam dunk alcoholic.

[07:06:39.366 – 07:06:46.226] I have an illness that takes out the overwhelming majority of people who have it. [07:06:46.226 – 07:06:53.536] People with alcoholism, better than 90% die never knowing there's a way out. [07:06:53.536 – 07:06:58.906] Around the world, better than 90% of, of, of alcoholics die of the condition. [07:06:58.906 – 07:07:01.836] Never even a hint of a, of a solution. [07:07:01.836 – 07:07:06.806] For some reason, I was given… [07:07:06.806 – 07:07:07.846] I mean, I didn't even look for it. [07:07:07.846 – 07:07:12.666] I was given a solution to that hopeless condition. [07:07:12.666 – 07:07:15.506] Isn't that something? [07:07:15.506 – 07:07:16.525] It's a gift.

[07:07:16.525 – 07:07:19.046] So, so I get in touch with that. [07:07:19.046 – 07:07:26.706] You know, that I've, I've been given recovery from a hopeless state of mind and body with no real effort on my part. [07:07:26.706 – 07:07:30.296] You know, that I, it was handed to me with just some simple [07:07:30.626 – 07:07:32.386] things to do to make it come alive. [07:07:32.386 – 07:07:41.046] So I get in touch with that, who am, and, and realize how grateful I am and how much I have to be grateful for just at, at that one level.

[07:07:41.046 – 07:07:51.406] Then the second thing I do is to, is, is, is ask, ask myself a question, "If you're so grateful, why [07:07:51.406 – 07:07:54.946] don't you reflect it?" You know, "Why don't you reflect it? [07:07:54.946 – 07:07:59.286] Why don't you wear it like you're proud of it, like you're grateful for it? [07:07:59.286 – 07:08:03.286] If it's such a great gift, why don't you be a good example of it? [07:08:03.286 – 07:08:09.686] Try to look like you're even remotely worthy of it." That's my second deal. [07:08:09.686 – 07:08:14.526] That tells me how to handle myself when I go out in the day.

[07:08:14.526 – 07:08:17.186] That's why I'm generally courteous. [07:08:17.186 – 07:08:18.686] I don't go scrap all the time. [07:08:18.686 – 07:08:22.726] I'm generally courteous and ki- kind to everybody I meet. [07:08:22.726 – 07:08:23.766] I don't care who they are. [07:08:23.766 – 07:08:27.806] And, and, and as a result, I live in a very friendly world. [07:08:27.806 – 07:08:29.366] You know, that's the way I do. [07:08:29.366 – 07:08:30.666] You know, that's what I wanna do. [07:08:30.666 – 07:08:36.226] I wanna, I wanna express my gratitude by letting it show. [07:08:36.226 – 07:08:42.286] And then the third thing I do is I ask for … [07:08:42.286 – 07:08:46.546] Y- you know how sometimes you'll walk right past stuff and never see it?

[07:08:46.546 – 07:08:51.396] And I'll do that because I got my mind on stuff and I walk right past, you know. [07:08:51.396 – 07:08:55.786] And, um, I walked past a, a, a la- in New York the other day. [07:08:55.786 – 07:08:59.406] I was changing planes, and there was a lad that had … [07:08:59.406 – 07:09:02.946] One of his legs was, it was either gone or oughta been gone. [07:09:02.946 – 07:09:04.026] It was, it wasn't working. [07:09:04.026 – 07:09:06.086] And, you know, he's hopping. [07:09:06.086 – 07:09:06.776] He didn't have crutches. [07:09:06.776 – 07:09:08.066] He's hopping down the runway. [07:09:08.066 – 07:09:10.566] Well, I was thinking about my flight.

[07:09:10.566 – 07:09:12.806] I didn't think I was gonna make it, and I said, and I walked right past him. [07:09:12.806 – 07:09:16.126] What is wrong with you, W? [07:09:16.126 – 07:09:23.266] So I went back, tried to m- to make him let me help him. [07:09:23.266 – 07:09:24.206] He wouldn't do it. [07:09:24.206 – 07:09:30.046] He said, "No, to tell you the truth, it's more of a hindrance than a help if you try to help me. [07:09:30.046 – 07:09:38.146] I do better hopping." I said, "Well, hop on then if you want to, but, but…" But see, I walked right past him.

[07:09:38.146 – 07:09:41.026] And so if I'm not tuned into that, I won't see it. [07:09:41.026 – 07:09:46.646] And, um, so, so I prayf- pray to be sensitive to opportunities to be of service. [07:09:46.646 – 07:09:56.806] And I guarantee you, if you include that in your prayer, you better fasten your seatbelt because man, I'm telling you, the, the opportunities are everywhere. [07:09:56.806 – 07:09:58.266] I mean everywhere. [07:09:58.266 – 07:10:01.046] And, uh, and they … [07:10:01.046 – 07:10:02.826] And it, it, and, and to just… [07:10:02.826 – 07:10:09.766] That's what I wanna do, and that's what I wanna do getting set for my day, you know, so that I can go out and, and serve useful purpose.

[07:10:09.766 – 07:10:12.466] And I'm gonna tell you something, man, that, that works. [07:10:12.466 – 07:10:17.245] That really works in, in terms of living the kinda life I wanna live. [07:10:17.245 – 07:10:24.826] And, and what I, what I find is just like that thing I told you about the, the wallet and, uh, whatever, the driver's license thing. [07:10:24.826 – 07:10:26.646] Amazing thing. [07:10:26.646 – 07:10:32.926] And now, some of that came just by, by just being s- sensitive to flight attendant. [07:10:32.926 – 07:10:35.766] You know, the flight attendant, I pointed to her 'cause she used to be one.

[07:10:35.766 – 07:10:36.906] She won't tell you, but I will. [07:10:36.906 – 07:10:42.486] She, uh, used to be one, and, and, and I always feel for flight attendant because they can't go down the aisle. [07:10:42.486 – 07:10:43.566] Every- everybody wants something. [07:10:43.566 – 07:10:43.926] "You have it. [07:10:43.926 – 07:10:44.446] Give me that. [07:10:44.446 – 07:10:45.456] Can you give me that?" Yeah. [07:10:45.456 – 07:10:47.036] Or woof about something. [07:10:47.036 – 07:10:50.466] And so I d- I just had a nice little conversation with that gal. [07:10:50.466 – 07:10:55.586] I didn't even want a, the, the, another warm chocolate chip cookie, but she made me take one.

[07:10:55.586 – 07:11:01.326] And, uh, so you know what airline I was flying. [07:11:01.326 – 07:11:01.905] Yes. [07:11:01.905 – 07:11:11.086] So and then, and the incredible thing that she did with just of ha- of demanding her husband FedEx that dr- driver's license to me, it was incredible. [07:11:11.086 – 07:11:12.686] But I mean, it's happened. [07:11:12.686 – 07:11:14.826] It doesn't jolt me because it happens all the time. [07:11:14.826 – 07:11:24.866] A- and what I find literally that, that when I live that way and, and I, and I, and, and I'm, and I, and that prayer is answered and I'm sensitive to folk, my God.

[07:11:24.866 – 07:11:26.886] My God, it, it, it's never ending. [07:11:26.886 – 07:11:34.466] And, and it's so rewarding, not just because of what I get back, but just because how I feel by handling myself that way. [07:11:34.466 – 07:11:44.536] And I know I went into, um, uh, where I, when I was working for a living, I, I, I, I, I was in the, the c- the capital complex of the, the Raleigh, [07:11:44.536 – 07:11:48.546] where our capital and, and my office building right in there. [07:11:48.546 – 07:11:54.425] And I normally, I either don't go to lunch or, or, or go out and stay two hours and pig out.

[07:11:54.425 – 07:11:56.586] You know, I'm a cre- creature of extreme. [07:11:56.586 – 07:12:03.646] And then next door there's a little old grill thing in the next building that y- where you can go and get emergency rations. [07:12:03.646 – 07:12:05.066] So I, I rarely went. [07:12:05.066 – 07:12:11.656] I went over there one day, and, uh, there was a pretty, pretty beat-up young girl there. [07:12:11.656 – 07:12:15.266] I mean, you could tell that she had not grown up in wealth and splendor. [07:12:15.266 – 07:12:20.146] She had been beaten by the weapons of life, and, and she, she, she showed its wear.

[07:12:20.146 – 07:12:22.506] And so she didn't look happy, you know. [07:12:22.506 – 07:12:28.906] So I w- I went in and, uh, I was, I was kind of woofing with her a little bit, you know, about stuff, just trying to lighten her up some. [07:12:28.906 – 07:12:30.456] And we, we hit it off. [07:12:30.456 – 07:12:35.436] We did, and, uh, and she said, "Well, what do you want?" When I she had, had to go back to work. [07:12:35.436 – 07:12:41.566] I said, "I'd like a tuna sandwich." And, uh, she said, "You got it." And so she…

[07:12:41.566 – 07:12:43.826] And I tell you, I like tuna, but not that much. [07:12:43.826 – 07:12:46.456] And boy, she slapped that tuna on that thing. [07:12:46.456 – 07:12:48.546] It was running out the sides, on the tray. [07:12:48.546 – 07:12:52.006] And it wasn't why I was being nice to her. [07:12:52.006 – 07:12:55.746] That was simply her response. [07:12:55.746 – 07:12:59.066] And, and, uh, so g- good. [07:12:59.066 – 07:13:00.346] You know, we both had a good day. [07:13:00.346 – 07:13:06.106] About six months later, I went back in, and I wanted a ham sandwich. [07:13:06.106 – 07:13:10.526] And, uh, went in, and she saw me come in the door.

[07:13:10.526 – 07:13:13.446] It's been six months, and she started looking. [07:13:13.446 – 07:13:16.646] She started s- grinning, and she grabbed that bread. [07:13:16.646 – 07:13:17.286] I said, "Uh-oh. [07:13:17.286 – 07:13:26.226] Uh-oh." "I'm eating tuna it looks like." And sh- sure enough, God knows, here she went and had just absolutely… [07:13:26.226 – 07:13:29.546] You'd have thought I was a vendor of tuna when I went back. [07:13:29.546 – 07:13:38.326] But I mean, that's just is the way it works sometimes, you know, that, that when you give, you let it, just like the book says, you get back more than you give, no matter what it is.

[07:13:38.326 – 07:13:41.458] And, and my God, that's been the story of my life. [07:13:41.458 – 07:13:44.118] I, I mean, from, from the, from the get-go. [07:13:44.118 – 07:13:47.258] Uh, and so it, it, it's just… [07:13:47.258 – 07:13:52.418] And I don't do it for that reason, but it's just the byproduct of, of what people wanna do. [07:13:52.418 – 07:14:02.518] Uh, I remember when 9/11 happened, and I was supposed to be going somewhere, so were a lot of other people trying to go somewhere, and the airline looked like a, uh, looked like

[07:14:02.518 – 07:14:05.218] just a packing plant for, for humans. [07:14:05.218 – 07:14:06.318] And they were in there. [07:14:06.318 – 07:14:11.118] I was, I was going up there to, to try to get in, and I got through the maze, got up there, and there was a… [07:14:11.118 – 07:14:18.618] Somebody told me that my description was a little, w- very, uh, understandable. [07:14:18.618 – 07:14:20.518] I was talking about a hefty lady. [07:14:20.518 – 07:14:23.817] This, this lady was fairly healthy t- too. [07:14:23.817 – 07:14:29.638] Uh, she's not underfed, and she was working the counter by herself. [07:14:29.638 – 07:14:34.098] And, and I mean, the mass of people, everybody was clawing at her and all this.

[07:14:34.098 – 07:14:43.658] And, and she not only had to check the tickets, she had to pick up the baggage and carry it over to let the sniffers get a hold of it, and, uh, she's sweating like a mule. [07:14:43.658 – 07:14:48.518] So I'm looking at her and I said , I said, "Tell you what, girl. [07:14:48.518 – 07:14:55.158] You too busy." I said, "Why don't you work on to quitting time and take the day off?" And she said, "You better believe I'll take the day off, and tomorrow too.

[07:14:55.158 – 07:14:59.898] I'm not coming back to this zoo." I said, "Go girl." Well, I start… [07:14:59.898 – 07:15:01.198] Now, that's not much of a deal, eh? [07:15:01.198 – 07:15:04.258] I started walking off, and I heard this voice, "Mr. [07:15:04.258 – 07:15:10.058] Ivester, you forgot something." And so she called me back through the crowd. [07:15:10.058 – 07:15:14.138] She booted me to first class. [07:15:14.138 – 07:15:23.218] Now, that plane was jammed, and I just hear that businessman from New York saying, "What the devil am I doing back here in cattle class?" You know? [07:15:23.218 – 07:15:28.858] But it work- I mean, it's just the way it works.

[07:15:28.858 – 07:15:29.518] Yeah. [07:15:29.518 – 07:15:32.518] And, uh, so I live in a pretty doggone good world. [07:15:32.518 – 07:15:36.138] I really do, and, and just, just have a great time of doing that. [07:15:36.138 – 07:15:40.858] And, and so that's kind of the way I go at it, you know, and that, that's the way I approach people. [07:15:40.858 – 07:15:47.697] Now, as you gathered in the last session, uh, if it doesn't work you can always go to plan B, you know, and, and, and get a little more forthright. [07:15:47.697 – 07:15:50.578] But, but, but I like to go, to go at it that way.

[07:15:50.578 – 07:15:54.718] I, I like, uh, to be in a world where, where it's peaceful and that kind of thing. [07:15:54.718 – 07:15:59.818] So that's the way I prepare, and then that way I'm prepared for what comes along. [07:15:59.818 – 07:16:01.618] I'm in the right frame of mind. [07:16:01.618 – 07:16:09.818] And, uh, so it's just, it's just an awfully good way, and I could, I could give you 10,000 stories like that of stuff that happens. [07:16:09.818 – 07:16:14.338] They're just unbelievable things, and, um, incredible. [07:16:14.338 – 07:16:16.338] And, and but it's not why I do it.

[07:16:16.338 – 07:16:24.418] It's just the point is that when I f- when I pay attention to others, I always get back more than I give, no matter what it is. [07:16:24.418 – 07:16:25.958] It always works that way. [07:16:25.958 – 07:16:33.278] And, and I think that's the whole, whole note of s- of service is finding the niche where I can be of service and going at it. [07:16:33.278 – 07:16:37.798] Now, it does create a traffic jam sometimes. [07:16:37.798 – 07:16:47.578] And, um, and I've g- I've, I've grown up, uh, uh, you know, in my, my 40 years of marriage, uh, last July.

[07:16:47.578 – 07:16:50.538] And, uh, and we have a good marriage. [07:16:50.538 – 07:16:53.178] Uh, I married a little gal from, uh, Saskatchewan. [07:16:53.178 – 07:17:01.538] I was up there doing God's work, trying to carry the message in Saskatchewan, which is about like going to a Third World country almost. [07:17:01.538 – 07:17:03.338] But, but anyway, it is. [07:17:03.338 – 07:17:04.598] It's, it's not Chicago. [07:17:04.598 – 07:17:14.898] And, uh, m- my wife grew up in a Nazarene, uh, that's not overly familiar down here, but it's, a Nazarene is a very serious brand of religion. [07:17:14.898 – 07:17:16.288] I mean, it's, uh…

[07:17:16.288 – 07:17:22.358] I did a memorial for her mother when she died, and, uh, I was watching how they did the funeral. [07:17:22.358 – 07:17:28.038] Well, they had two min- two Nazarene ministers in front of me, and, uh, boy, you talk somber. [07:17:28.038 – 07:17:29.458] I mean, that was somber. [07:17:29.458 – 07:17:39.598] And, uh, and I'm sitting there thinking, "I'm following the two ministers." And, uh, they didn't make dying look popular, [07:17:39.598 – 07:17:40.318] look like fun. [07:17:40.318 – 07:17:41.818] I mean, that, that was grim. [07:17:41.818 – 07:17:44.018] And I thought, "Jesus, man. [07:17:44.018 – 07:17:44.478] Uh, yeah. [07:17:44.478 – 07:17:50.378] Am I gonna get up there and act like that?" And my mother-in-law, I, I mean, she was a go-getter.

[07:17:50.378 – 07:17:54.578] You know, I had to pull her off a ladder when she was 89 years old trying to paint her house. [07:17:54.578 – 07:18:00.478] I said, "Get down from there, Dodo." And she died at 97 with that kind of s- spark. [07:18:00.478 – 07:18:05.298] And I'm gonna get up there and have some moaning and groaning, and sad singing, and slow rhyming? [07:18:05.298 – 07:18:06.518] There ain't no way. [07:18:06.518 – 07:18:11.568] So I got up there and I started to t- tell my thing, and I, I told a little fu-

[07:18:12.774 – 07:18:19.694] And, uh, one guy said, "Huh." I said, "Well, it was a start," you know? [07:18:19.694 – 07:18:23.494] And so, and so that encouraged me a little bit, and I tried another one, you know? [07:18:23.494 – 07:18:26.714] And then, then, uh, well, before long we're rocking, you know? [07:18:26.714 – 07:18:31.614] I mean, we were doing– We were celebrating the life, not mourning the death. [07:18:31.614 – 07:18:34.414] That's t- what I believe in doing. [07:18:34.414 – 07:18:40.094] And, uh, so anyway, that's where my wife came from was that culture. [07:18:40.094 – 07:18:46.514] And then I introduced her to, to Alcoholics Anonymous, and, um, that she's now a member.

[07:18:46.514 – 07:18:49.233] You know, she's been in Al-Anon 37 years, I believe. [07:18:49.233 – 07:18:57.514] And, uh, I know when she first got here, people in Saskatchewan are not exactly gregarious people till you get to know them. [07:18:57.514 – 07:18:59.514] Um, they're somber, pretty somber people. [07:18:59.514 – 07:19:01.334] And they, they raise wheat. [07:19:01.334 – 07:19:02.934] Now, that'll make you very, very somber. [07:19:02.934 – 07:19:05.874] And so she came to North Carolina. [07:19:05.874 – 07:19:09.974] The first week she was here, we had our state convention, and I took her over there. [07:19:09.974 – 07:19:11.634] She'd never seen anything like this.

[07:19:11.634 – 07:19:15.294] I mean, all– She told me later, she said, "I thought that was the phoniest stuff I ever saw. [07:19:15.294 – 07:19:24.274] All that hugging and smacking poo and all this stuff." She said, "I thought that was phony." And, uh, and you know, you know, we don't mean to be rude, but sometimes we are. [07:19:24.274 – 07:19:27.974] We get so caught up with each other that sometimes we forget who's with us. [07:19:27.974 – 07:19:29.954] And, and so that's what happened to her. [07:19:29.954 – 07:19:39.574] And every once in a while I'd s- I'd spot her standing there like a fire plug, and I'd say, uh, "I'd like you to meet my wife, Fern." And she'd say, "Oh, how do you do?" And then just right on, you know?

[07:19:39.574 – 07:19:45.714] So she had a little trouble p-penetrating this thing, but she's– she comes from that kind of a background. [07:19:45.714 – 07:19:50.374] And, uh, and then got into this sort of swinging thing. [07:19:50.374 – 07:19:53.934] I, I, I wanna tell you something. [07:19:53.934 – 07:19:59.294] And what I'm leading up to is this thing about integrating with the family and then getting some balance and stuff like that. [07:19:59.294 – 07:20:02.054] She loved going to open meetings. [07:20:02.054 – 07:20:05.174] W- She loved to s– She's got a heart for the underdog. [07:20:05.174 – 07:20:07.014] She had– Well, she loved to hear the story.

[07:20:07.014 – 07:20:08.654] Even mine. [07:20:08.654 – 07:20:09.914] I mean, she'd even listen to me. [07:20:09.914 – 07:20:12.614] But we, uh, we, we– She did that. [07:20:12.614 – 07:20:15.014] I w- I wanted her to go to Al-Anon. [07:20:15.014 – 07:20:19.034] And it is kind of like court cards, you know? [07:20:19.034 – 07:20:24.414] That when somebody's pushing you, just by instinct you'll dig your heels in. [07:20:24.414 – 07:20:32.074] Nobody wants to be pushed around, and she didn't either, and I learned it in spades later on. [07:20:32.074 – 07:20:38.874] But, but she sensed that I wanted her to go to Al-Anon, and I knew she sensed it.

[07:20:38.874 – 07:20:41.294] And I never did tell her, you know, that… [07:20:41.294 – 07:20:51.654] And then finally, I don't know, sometime i-into our marriage a little bit, one day I figured, I said, "Shoot, man, we need to talk about this thing." So I said, I said, [07:20:51.654 – 07:21:02.494] "Let's talk about something." And sh-she said, "What?" And I said, "You know, I would really like for you to be in Al-Anon." I said, "But I want you to understand something now." I'd [07:21:02.494 – 07:21:06.013] been sober, I think, at the point of that conversation 11 years.

[07:21:06.013 – 07:21:14.914] And I told her, I said, "I've been sober 11 years, and it really is not gonna affect me one way or the other whether you do or not. [07:21:14.914 – 07:21:21.114] You're not gonna affect my drinking nor my sobriety." I mean, that'd be the biggest cop-out in the world. [07:21:21.114 – 07:21:22.234] You're not gonna touch it. [07:21:22.234 – 07:21:32.234] "But I do believe that a family that recovers together has a far better chance of staying together, and I believe that." And [07:21:32.234 – 07:21:33.233] I said, "But it's your call.

[07:21:33.233 – 07:21:35.034] You know, if, if you don't wanna go, fine. [07:21:35.034 – 07:21:36.414] You'll never hear it from me again. [07:21:36.414 – 07:21:43.294] But that's what I'd like." But once– And it's amazing thing what people do when you take the, the pressure off, eh? [07:21:43.294 – 07:21:48.714] The minute I took the pressure off and it became her idea, you couldn't have kept her out with a pit bull. [07:21:48.714 – 07:21:51.414] And next week, here she goes. [07:21:51.414 – 07:21:55.374] Here goes to Al-Anon because I let up. [07:21:55.374 – 07:21:57.834] And so she s- freely got it.

[07:21:57.834 – 07:21:58.834] She'll tell anybody. [07:21:58.834 – 07:22:02.214] You know, a lot of people ask her, "How on earth do you put up with that guy? [07:22:02.214 – 07:22:04.164] You know, he's gone all the time, you know. [07:22:04.164 – 07:22:09.614] How do you deal with it?" And, and she told– Somebody told me what she said to somebody who asked her that one time. [07:22:09.614 – 07:22:18.354] She said, "If it hadn't have been for Al-Anon, we probably wouldn't have lasted three years." Who gonna put up with this kind of stuff if you're not in the spirit, eh?

[07:22:18.354 – 07:22:21.774] And, and so that, that's how we got going. [07:22:21.774 – 07:22:24.454] And, uh, we've had a, a marvelous relationship with that. [07:22:24.454 – 07:22:33.094] She gets fed up sometimes because every t– I mean, I'm gone most weekends, and I leave every ounce of responsibility with her. [07:22:33.094 – 07:22:38.154] So anybody's gonna get fed up from time to time. [07:22:38.154 – 07:22:41.454] So I have to be very thoughtful about that. [07:22:41.454 – 07:22:50.574] And, um, yeah, I, I, I was telling to somebody, to folk at the, at the break, that I, I did something this year that I've never done.

[07:22:50.574 – 07:22:57.114] I've never said no to a request for AA service on the basis of personal comfort or convenience. [07:22:57.114 – 07:22:58.193] I've never done it. [07:22:58.193 – 07:23:03.433] Now, I have to say no a lot of time because I don't– I'm, I'm, I'm doing something else. [07:23:03.433 – 07:23:06.914] But that's my, that's my history. [07:23:06.914 – 07:23:12.214] And this year I, I decided to do something since I was getting old. [07:23:12.214 – 07:23:20.934] And I, I told my wife one day, I said, "You know where my calendar is on the computer?" She said, "Sure." And I s- I said, "I'll, I'll make you an offer.

[07:23:20.934 – 07:23:24.194] Go in there and just look down the calendar. [07:23:24.194 – 07:23:29.764] Any month that's got a, a, a weekend open that you'd like for me to be home, put home on there. [07:23:29.764 – 07:23:31.354] And I don't care what it's for. [07:23:31.354 – 07:23:36.014] Either seducing the old woman or I don't care." "What- whatever you want. [07:23:36.014 – 07:23:43.034] And, uh, mow the grass, you know, whatever." So she said, "You won't do that." And I said, "Well, try me. [07:23:43.034 – 07:23:44.574] Let's see what happens." You know. [07:23:44.574 – 07:23:45.594] So I'm doing it now.

[07:23:45.594 – 07:23:49.694] This is my second month, and, uh, uh, so far I'm making history. [07:23:49.694 – 07:23:50.714] I've, I'm … [07:23:50.714 – 07:23:51.774] I got two months. [07:23:51.774 – 07:23:52.704] Next month I got one. [07:23:52.704 – 07:23:54.314] So but that's what we're doing. [07:23:54.314 – 07:23:55.634] That's just a little bit of thing. [07:23:55.634 – 07:24:00.574] It only took me 40-some years to do that, but, but it, it's a little thing. [07:24:00.574 – 07:24:06.554] Otherwise, you know, what I've done is try to make her part of what we're doing, and, and that's such a key thing. [07:24:06.554 – 07:24:11.234] My kids, you know, when they came along, I had the, I had the concerns any parent would.

[07:24:11.234 – 07:24:15.314] That, that my kids– I didn't know how I was gonna deal with them. [07:24:15.314 – 07:24:17.394] Uh, I mean, I knew what I was gonna try to do. [07:24:17.394 – 07:24:22.310] Uh, my kids knew AA before they knew the ABCs. [07:24:22.310 – 07:24:24.850] I mean, they, they, they, they grew up in the environment. [07:24:24.850 – 07:24:28.410] And, uh, and a lot of them been to pr- to them… [07:24:28.410 – 07:24:31.090] Well, I only got two, but I mean, they, they went to a bunch of meetings. [07:24:31.090 – 07:24:41.290] We, we sort of coerced them into Alateen, but neither of them had any experience with my drinking or my early recovery, and they, they, they did some good work in there, but it just really wasn't

[07:24:41.290 – 07:24:42.550] something that they needed to do. [07:24:42.550 – 07:24:46.510] And so they, they did a, the, a stint in there, and then they came out. [07:24:46.510 – 07:24:51.710] My son 12-stepped one into AA out of Alateen, uh, so it was a worthwhile trip. [07:24:51.710 – 07:24:54.650] I always worried about… [07:24:54.650 – 07:24:58.390] This is, this is leading up to balance, but it's more, more… [07:24:58.390 – 07:25:08.670] It, my kids grew up with that, and, uh, as I mentioned the other day, I've always tried to respect their privacy, their o- their individuality, and not clone

[07:25:08.670 – 07:25:13.930] them into the AA army or to impose some kind of a regiment of, you know, that. [07:25:13.930 – 07:25:18.710] I always tried to respect their individuality, and, and that has worked out well. [07:25:18.710 – 07:25:26.289] And, and, um, so they grew up with it, and both of them over time had me speak to their schools and, uh, did all that kind of stuff. [07:25:26.289 – 07:25:36.410] But when my, my daughter told me they, uh, the teacher told me, said, "Your daughter tells me you're the president of AA." And I said, "No,

[07:25:36.410 – 07:25:37.230] no, no. [07:25:37.230 – 07:25:38.470] I'm not even running right now. [07:25:38.470 – 07:25:43.670] I might run later." You know, she, she, she didn't know or care, but- Anyway, that, that, uh… [07:25:43.670 – 07:25:47.930] So that's kind of an important thing that, with the family is a piece of this. [07:25:47.930 – 07:25:57.930] What, what, what I've found is that if I operate by principles, AA does not compete with any [07:25:57.930 – 07:26:00.910] other important thing in my life, if I operate by principles. [07:26:00.910 – 07:26:06.190] I have to remember that if I have a job, there are principles associated with that.

[07:26:06.190 – 07:26:08.210] There are principle with my marriage. [07:26:08.210 – 07:26:09.750] There are principle with my family. [07:26:09.750 – 07:26:17.570] And, uh, so what I've, what I've, what I have done over the years, the, um… [07:26:17.570 – 07:26:28.470] And I shared this with somebody, uh, du- during the weekend, but what I've done over the years is I make what I consider an extremely important differentiation [07:26:28.470 – 07:26:34.710] between activity and commitment, activity and committed action. [07:26:34.710 – 07:26:36.670] I think there's a huge difference. [07:26:36.670 – 07:26:44.650] And, and what I'm talking about is I have, I have three commitments in my week.

[07:26:44.650 – 07:26:47.710] My home group meets twice a week. [07:26:47.710 – 07:26:56.910] Now, I, I am at that meeting, or else I'm doing something that I consider of overriding importance that night. [07:26:56.910 – 07:27:02.750] Like sometimes I'll take a service kind of a oriented thing that, uh, to, to do something with, with another group. [07:27:02.750 – 07:27:03.410] I'll do that. [07:27:03.410 – 07:27:10.690] Uh, you know, if there's a, an important something, I will, but it's gonna take something heavy for me, for me to do it. [07:27:10.690 – 07:27:11.890] But I'm there. [07:27:11.890 – 07:27:13.330] It's a commitment.

[07:27:13.330 – 07:27:14.010] I'm a member. [07:27:14.010 – 07:27:18.550] If people come to that town, and they know that's my home group, that's where they'll look for me. [07:27:18.550 – 07:27:19.690] I want them to find me there. [07:27:19.690 – 07:27:21.790] And so I, I'm… [07:27:21.790 – 07:27:23.990] It's, it's also where I'm responsible. [07:27:23.990 – 07:27:28.390] I'm responsible to step forward and, and welcome people to the group. [07:27:28.390 – 07:27:31.700] I'm responsible to take care of if somebody spills a cup of coffee. [07:27:31.700 – 07:27:33.450] You know, that, that's my group. [07:27:33.450 – 07:27:34.550] So that's a commitment. [07:27:34.550 – 07:27:37.130] That's not under the heading of nice to do.

[07:27:37.130 – 07:27:41.170] That's gonna do unless there's a death in the family, and it's me. [07:27:41.170 – 07:27:44.390] But otherwise, I'm gonna be there. [07:27:44.390 – 07:27:46.150] So that's, that's a commitment. [07:27:46.150 – 07:27:56.190] Tell you why that's important and why it's important in, in, in, in, in, in, in having a balanced kind of an environment of family. [07:27:56.190 – 07:28:01.290] A commitment means that you can trust me. [07:28:01.290 – 07:28:05.630] Uh, uh, you, if I tell you I'm gonna do this, you bet I'm gonna do it. [07:28:05.630 – 07:28:10.010] Now, that builds trust because you do what you say you're gonna do.

[07:28:10.010 – 07:28:12.350] So, so I'll give you an example. [07:28:12.350 – 07:28:22.439] My son, he, he's now a budding wealthy physician, and, uh, one night he, he came by the house, and, uh, he's visiting [07:28:22.439 – 07:28:24.190] a little bit, and he, he and I were sitting at the den. [07:28:24.190 – 07:28:30.590] He said, "Hey, Dad, I'd like to take you and Mom to dinner tonight." Trying to pay me back for the expensive medical school. [07:28:30.590 – 07:28:30.730] I… [07:28:30.730 – 07:28:33.350] But with one dinner, you… [07:28:33.350 – 07:28:35.749] And, uh, I didn't say a thing.

[07:28:35.749 – 07:28:37.030] I don't even think I blinked. [07:28:37.030 – 07:28:38.790] But, but it occurred… [07:28:38.790 – 07:28:39.569] He said, "Wait a minute. [07:28:39.569 – 07:28:43.200] This is meeting night, isn't it?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "Oh, shoot. [07:28:43.200 – 07:28:48.850] We'll do it later." Now, suppose I'd have said, "No, Tom and I are gonna go bowl tonight. [07:28:48.850 – 07:28:52.860] Yeah, we're just gonna hang out with some guys, or, you know, we're gonna have coffee." Suppose- [07:28:53.016 – 07:28:53.656] I said that. [07:28:53.656 – 07:29:00.076] That would have been saying he's more important than my son, that the casual activity is more important to him.

[07:29:00.076 – 07:29:02.736] You know, wouldn't do that. [07:29:02.736 – 07:29:06.856] That if I've got a commitment to… [07:29:06.856 – 07:29:07.816] And he knew that. [07:29:07.816 – 07:29:08.696] He grew up with it. [07:29:08.696 – 07:29:11.516] He knows what I do on Thursday night. [07:29:11.516 – 07:29:14.036] And, uh, and so he backed out himself. [07:29:14.036 – 07:29:15.156] I didn't have to tell him anything. [07:29:15.156 – 07:29:17.056] See, that's trust. [07:29:17.056 – 07:29:17.856] That's trust. [07:29:17.856 – 07:29:22.215] You can count that this guy is gonna do what he said he's gonna do. [07:29:22.215 – 07:29:26.256] And, and, and then we can plan around that. [07:29:26.256 – 07:29:28.876] You know, it's like what we're doing here this weekend.

[07:29:28.876 – 07:29:36.996] This became a, a, a, a commitment when Warren called, and I said, "Yeah, I'll do that," that this was a commitment. [07:29:36.996 – 07:29:40.496] And then, but those are known in my family. [07:29:40.496 – 07:29:42.476] I mean, my commitments are known. [07:29:42.476 – 07:29:52.216] And, and so when people know what I'm doing, and they believe in it, my God, they grew up with it, and, uh, they believe in it, then it's no hassle, you know? [07:29:52.216 – 07:29:54.676] But very important that, that, that… [07:29:54.676 – 07:30:04.376] It sounds like a s- it is a subtle little thing, but that difference between committed action and activity is tremendously important.

[07:30:04.376 – 07:30:11.336] And when I'm just gonna drop it because somebody said, "Let's ride over to Podunk and catch a meeting," uh, no. [07:30:11.336 – 07:30:14.016] Gotta be pretty wary about that. [07:30:14.016 – 07:30:19.276] And so, so my folks know, know, know that, and it's extremely im- im- important to do. [07:30:19.276 – 07:30:27.436] Also, people who, who, who, who, uh, know me learn how to trust me because of the same reason. [07:30:27.436 – 07:30:30.116] If somebody comes to my town, and they've… [07:30:30.116 – 07:30:30.486] If, uh… [07:30:30.486 – 07:30:31.596] I had it just a while back.

[07:30:31.596 – 07:30:37.756] A guy from Florida came up to my town, stopped at a restaurant, and got talking to the guy on the next stool. [07:30:37.756 – 07:30:40.456] And you know how it is in small-town America. [07:30:40.456 – 07:30:50.476] He's talking to him, and he's, and he said, "You know, I've got a friend I was hoping to see in this town while I'm here." The guy said, "Who is he?" He said, "Well, he's a guy named Tom Ivester." And the guy said, [07:30:50.476 – 07:30:51.636] "Well, my God, I know him.

[07:30:51.636 – 07:30:51.976] Come on. [07:30:51.976 – 07:30:55.056] I'll lead you over to his house." That's small-town America. [07:30:55.056 – 07:30:58.056] And he also told me one night he did the same thing. [07:30:58.056 – 07:30:59.916] The guy carried him to my meeting, yeah. [07:30:59.916 – 07:31:00.956] And that's… [07:31:00.956 – 07:31:03.456] But that's, that's not only small-town America. [07:31:03.456 – 07:31:08.856] That's a committed behavior that people know that this is what you do, and then they can trust. [07:31:08.856 – 07:31:19.396] And then to me, that's one of the important things in terms of trying to balance out things, is to differentiate the things that are truly vital

[07:31:19.396 – 07:31:21.656] to those that are negotiable, yeah. [07:31:21.656 – 07:31:25.316] You know, my, those commitments are not negotiable. [07:31:25.316 – 07:31:34.476] Unless I get something that's of overriding importance, then, then, then we might, w- it might make a difference, but otherwise, they're not negotiable. [07:31:34.476 – 07:31:40.556] When I put this, this, this workshop on the, on the calendar, it was not negotiable. [07:31:40.556 – 07:31:50.716] In, in 40… I've been, I've been traveling extensively for 46 [07:31:50.716 – 07:31:51.576] years, I believe. [07:31:51.576 – 07:32:01.656] Uh, until a year or so ago, something like that, I had never had to cancel a single commitment I ever made,

[07:32:01.656 – 07:32:04.976] not one, due to illness or anything else. [07:32:04.976 – 07:32:06.736] Never had to cancel one. [07:32:06.736 – 07:32:15.956] And, uh, finally, I, you know, a lot of y'all know, I, I, I, I, I'm always developing new traits, and I developed a brain aneurysm. [07:32:15.956 – 07:32:19.356] And, uh, I didn't know it, but I just happened to find out. [07:32:19.356 – 07:32:29.436] And, uh, well, went into the hospital, and a guy was, was going over the drill with me, and [07:32:29.436 – 07:32:32.826] he was, he was sounding like he was trying to clamp me down a little bit, you know?

[07:32:32.826 – 07:32:43.056] And, and I I said, "Now, look, tell me if I'm gonna be able to travel," and he says, "I've got some stuff that I need to do." And he said, [07:32:43.056 – 07:32:47.256] "Well, you can, but not…" Now, the next week, I'm supposed to go to Iceland. [07:32:47.256 – 07:32:51.916] And I was going over there because they had gotten position. [07:32:51.916 – 07:32:56.676] They were gonna start AA in the entire system in Iceland, and they wanted me to come over. [07:32:56.676 – 07:33:03.836] They were gonna meet with the troops, and then we were gonna meet with the management of that system to talk about putting a program in place in a good, solid way.

[07:33:03.836 – 07:33:06.776] I told, I said, "Look, I've gotta go to Iceland, man. [07:33:06.776 – 07:33:07.776] I'm already committed. [07:33:07.776 – 07:33:08.416] I'm ticketed. [07:33:08.416 – 07:33:14.156] I gotta go." And he said, "It's reckless and dangerous. [07:33:14.156 – 07:33:20.696] You…" And when I got my papers from the hospital, he put in letters that big, you know, the discharge summary. [07:33:20.696 – 07:33:22.736] You know, here's what's wrong with this dude other than ugly. [07:33:22.736 – 07:33:33.016] And it, it, it had it had, it had on there, "Do not fly to Iceland." And he'd highlighted it so nobody

[07:33:33.016 – 07:33:33.925] would miss it, you know? [07:33:33.925 – 07:33:36.696] And, uh, so I couldn't go. [07:33:36.696 – 07:33:37.516] Couldn't go. [07:33:37.516 – 07:33:41.416] And by the way, I canceled that flight, and they still haven't refunded that sucker. [07:33:41.416 – 07:33:44.056] That, those, those folks hang on to a buck, man. [07:33:44.056 – 07:33:45.456] They got my money. [07:33:45.456 – 07:33:47.116] They're getting rich in Iceland with me. [07:33:47.116 – 07:33:53.396] But anyway, and then I was supposed to be in Fort Walton Beach the next week, and I had to cancel that. [07:33:53.396 – 07:33:59.936] That's the toughest thing I think I've ever done in AA was say, "Made a promise I can't deliver." Yeah, tough stuff.

[07:33:59.936 – 07:34:03.076] But, you know, that, uh, uh, but otherwise… [07:34:03.076 – 07:34:04.556] And that's not heroic to me. [07:34:04.556 – 07:34:09.256] I mean, it's just a matter of, of what commitments are about, you know, is that you arrange around them. [07:34:09.256 – 07:34:14.156] And, and in that way, they're not adventures that are unpredictable activity. [07:34:14.156 – 07:34:16.196] That's hard to monitor. [07:34:16.196 – 07:34:17.716] It's also hard to deal with. [07:34:17.716 – 07:34:25.536] You know, when you're trying to have a, a, a significant relationship with somebody, and it's like trying to catch a moving tar- hit a moving target.

[07:34:25.536 – 07:34:34.816] And, and it's so very important to have those commitments that you, that you absolutely keep, and what happens is trust. [07:34:34.816 – 07:34:44.896] And, and that is, that, that to me is, is tremendously important, particularly as you get into, to, to active service in the program because it'll take you in a lot of different directions, [07:34:44.896 – 07:34:45.086] yeah. [07:34:45.086 – 07:34:53.396] And if you don't have that good base, it's easy to get into real trouble, you know, where you're sort of chasing yourself and, uh, and trying to catch up.

[07:34:53.396 – 07:34:59.888] Otherwise, you know, if you just, it's the same old business, if you just stick with the principles, they'll, they'll see us through. [07:34:59.888 – 07:35:03.598] And, uh, the, I haven't, have had very little trouble. [07:35:03.598 – 07:35:05.768] We only got about, you know, 10 to 15 more minutes. [07:35:05.768 – 07:35:10.688] Let me just pause a minute, see if anybody wants to, to question, comments, or, or whatever. [07:35:10.688 – 07:35:12.568] Uh, be my guest. [07:35:12.568 – 07:35:20.448] Thank you. [07:35:20.448 – 07:35:23.908] Uh, all right. [07:35:23.908 – 07:35:30.268] All right. [07:35:30.268 – 07:35:32.608] Well, we'll give plenty of opportunity that, um…

[07:35:32.608 – 07:35:36.668] You, you doing something to me, Jim? [07:35:36.668 – 07:35:38.888] No, I was gonna make a comment. [07:35:38.888 – 07:35:39.868] Oh, okay. [07:35:39.868 – 07:35:40.268] All right. [07:35:40.268 – 07:35:40.668] Okay. [07:35:40.668 – 07:35:42.268] Just a quick comment. [07:35:42.268 – 07:35:47.248] I've heard Tom talk about, uh, family and, uh, everything for a long time. [07:35:47.248 – 07:35:51.628] I sponsored a guy who, uh, uh, was not successful. [07:35:51.628 – 07:35:57.168] Uh, uh, he would go for periods of sobriety, and then he would, uh, he would start… [07:35:57.168 – 07:36:03.368] He would go to a doctor and get some pills, and then he would go and do other things, and then he would finally drink.

[07:36:03.368 – 07:36:13.478] And on one of these, he had met Tom at a conference that we had and, uh, liked him and, uh, for some reason, [07:36:13.478 – 07:36:17.408] when he got home, his wife didn't want to talk to him very much. [07:36:17.408 – 07:36:22.368] He decided that somehow he would talk to Tom, and Tom would talk to his wife. [07:36:22.368 – 07:36:24.448] I, I, I don't know why he ever thought that. [07:36:24.448 – 07:36:27.568] But he called Tom's home, and of course, Tom was off somewhere. [07:36:27.568 – 07:36:34.228] Fern spent an hour on the phone with this guy and then another hour with his wife- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm …

[07:36:34.228 – 07:36:35.268] in the morning. [07:36:35.268 – 07:36:38.648] And, uh, you know, I mean, it is, it is a family thing. [07:36:38.648 – 07:36:38.678] Yeah. [07:36:38.678 – 07:36:40.748] And that always did, uh, impress me. [07:36:40.748 – 07:36:42.398] Yeah, yeah. [07:36:42.398 – 07:36:44.568] You, you know the, you know the strange thing? [07:36:44.568 – 07:36:47.248] That I always accuse her of sponsoring that guy. [07:36:47.248 – 07:36:55.328] And, uh, and he'll, he'll call my house, and, uh, I, if I answer the phone, he'll say, "Oh, hi, Tom. [07:36:55.328 – 07:36:59.548] Fern there?" He don't wanna hear beans from me. [07:36:59.548 – 07:37:02.068] He want, he wants to hear from the distaff side.

[07:37:02.068 – 07:37:04.648] Yeah, it's a, it's an amazing thing. [07:37:04.648 – 07:37:08.188] Yeah, that, you know, whatever, you get away from the sort of testy kind of stuff. [07:37:08.188 – 07:37:18.768] My, uh, my, my wife, when I get home, uh, t-tonight, I guess, when I get, I get home, that she will have [07:37:18.768 – 07:37:27.308] every phone call that came in, and she'll have what I need to do, and, and, and most of them she'll tell me what she did. [07:37:27.308 – 07:37:33.848] And, uh, and, uh, remarkably, there's usually nothing left for me to do.

[07:37:33.848 – 07:37:39.838] You know, I have guys that absolutely call when they know I'm gone. [07:37:39.838 – 07:37:42.068] Because they wanna talk to her. [07:37:42.068 – 07:37:47.008] You know, she'll get into about your kids and your, just all this stuff, you know. [07:37:47.008 – 07:37:49.128] I, I wanna get down to the gory stuff. [07:37:49.128 – 07:37:49.788] I, I don't wanna… [07:37:49.788 – 07:37:52.438] But she'll talk about all that stuff, you know. [07:37:52.438 – 07:37:55.368] And I'll just so they'll call. [07:37:55.368 – 07:37:58.598] I had one, one of my worst pigeons call a while back. [07:37:58.598 – 07:38:00.768] And, uh, I mean, he really was.

[07:38:00.768 – 07:38:10.048] Th-this sucker, I just, I finally discontinued sponsoring him because I had never seen a guy stay in, in AA so long and show no progress. [07:38:10.048 – 07:38:17.928] I mean, that dude had been sober some teen years, and I saw no visible signs of improvement whatsoever. [07:38:17.928 – 07:38:24.468] And, and but he just was a meathead and, and, uh, absolutely convinced that he could make a living by hustling. [07:38:24.468 – 07:38:26.408] And, and he, in sobriety was doing that. [07:38:26.408 – 07:38:31.308] So anyway, he called he called when I was still sponsoring him.

[07:38:31.308 – 07:38:36.988] And she, uh, she, she, she put a whooping on him because she, she, she, she knew him. [07:38:36.988 – 07:38:39.048] And, uh, she got back. [07:38:39.048 – 07:38:48.088] She told me what she did, and I said, "Well, that sounds good to me." Then, uh, uh, he called me, and he told me about the deal here. [07:38:48.088 – 07:38:51.408] And I says, I said, "Well, what'd my wife tell you?" And he told me. [07:38:51.408 – 07:38:58.628] I said, "So what'd you do about it?" He said, "Makes sense to me." You know, so my role as a sponsor was negligible.

[07:38:58.628 – 07:39:00.788] All I did was just sort of pay the phone bill. [07:39:00.788 – 07:39:02.728] She takes care of business. [07:39:02.728 – 07:39:12.908] But, uh, but that's what happens, you know, when you, when you, when you incorporate the family, you know, rather than, than, th-than sort of having that, that friction zone. [07:39:12.908 – 07:39:17.608] You, we, we try to find out how much is too much and that kind of stuff, if they're part of it. [07:39:17.608 – 07:39:20.608] And, uh, but all the difference in the world. [07:39:20.608 – 07:39:28.228] You know, they, uh, we, we have a, a relatively high divorce rate in, in Alcoholics Anonymous.

[07:39:28.228 – 07:39:31.228] Well, we got it in the country, but we, we certainly got it in AA. [07:39:31.228 – 07:39:34.158] And, and a lot of it, I, I think, comes from [07:39:34.304 – 07:39:37.484] Um, this ir– unresolved stuff like that. [07:39:37.484 – 07:39:44.134] You know, where your ship's in the night, where you're doing AA over here, and the family's over here, and never the twain shall meet, you know. [07:39:44.134 – 07:39:49.564] And so I, I think it's just, just, uh, tremendously important that, um, that the family be involved. [07:39:49.564 – 07:39:53.324] I, I tell you one other thing that, uh, that, um…

[07:39:53.324 – 07:40:01.504] I, I don't wanna be r-rude about, about this, but, uh, and I'm not. [07:40:01.504 – 07:40:03.044] I mean, it's just a matter of concern. [07:40:03.044 – 07:40:13.064] I, when I was in, I was in Jacksonville for the convention a, a, a couple years, two or three years ago, and I was really struck with something when they announced the, [07:40:13.064 – 07:40:14.624] the data on who was there. [07:40:14.624 – 07:40:20.404] And I, I, I won't remember the f-figures exactly, but I come close. [07:40:20.404 – 07:40:23.004] When they announced the pre- the attendance …

[07:40:23.004 – 07:40:25.564] Now, you think about the family deal, eh? [07:40:25.564 – 07:40:27.604] Think about the vitality of that. [07:40:27.604 – 07:40:30.984] When they announced the numbers, and, and by the way, it's not just Florida. [07:40:30.984 – 07:40:33.924] It, it, it, I've seen the same thing in other states as well. [07:40:33.924 – 07:40:36.304] They announced the figures. [07:40:36.304 – 07:40:44.684] I think we had something like thir- 3,300 or 3,800, uh, AA members register for the conference. [07:40:44.684 – 07:40:50.604] We had 240 members of Al-Anon. [07:40:50.604 – 07:40:57.244] You, you see a little disparity in that with a family illness and a family program recovery?

[07:40:57.244 – 07:40:58.104] 240. [07:40:58.104 – 07:41:03.544] Alateen had something like 40 kids, I think. [07:41:03.544 – 07:41:06.204] And boy, I'm telling you, that hit me. [07:41:06.204 – 07:41:07.144] That really hit me. [07:41:07.144 – 07:41:08.944] You know, family illness, eh? [07:41:08.944 – 07:41:11.484] Family re- program of recovery, eh? [07:41:11.484 – 07:41:13.584] Not by that evidence. [07:41:13.584 – 07:41:18.084] And, and that really, that really bothered me a lot to, to see that. [07:41:18.084 – 07:41:20.984] And, and, and Jacksonville was the first place I saw it clearly. [07:41:20.984 – 07:41:28.124] And, uh, and, and by gay was replicated at Fort Lauderdale, the, the same kind of differential. [07:41:28.124 – 07:41:30.064] The, um …

[07:41:30.064 – 07:41:31.164] And then some other states. [07:41:31.164 – 07:41:41.674] You know, among the things that, that I've got concerned about, you could say that it's none of my business, but it is because I believe that alcoholism's [07:41:41.674 – 07:41:45.144] a family illness, and I believe that recovery is a family matter. [07:41:45.144 – 07:41:55.304] I can't do anything about Al-Anon even in my own house, but I can doggone well communicate with my wife and, uh, try to pump [07:41:55.304 – 07:41:55.664] her up. [07:41:55.664 – 07:42:05.934] The, uh, but the, the, the Al-Anon family groups are, are, are declining markedly in, in, uh, in, in numbers

[07:42:05.934 – 07:42:07.034] and all of that kind of stuff. [07:42:07.034 – 07:42:10.284] A lot of, of, of fallout i-in Al-Anon. [07:42:10.284 – 07:42:16.444] And, uh, I think it's a hu- it's a huge loss when we see that thing, kind of thing going on. [07:42:16.444 – 07:42:26.884] I'd, I'll just give you one clue about what my thinking is that, um, uh, uh, you know, t-treatment's a good friend of mine, but an awful lot of byproducts [07:42:26.884 – 07:42:30.504] of treatment w- uh, happened that we didn't deal with very well. [07:42:30.504 – 07:42:40.784] And, uh, one of the things that's, that's happened, I think you probably gathered from other stuff, that, that what we've generated is these little old lightweight

[07:42:40.784 – 07:42:47.404] meetings like we've talked about a good bit this weekend, little lightweight meetings that look like aftercare groups for treatment. [07:42:47.404 – 07:42:49.184] You know, where people come in … [07:42:49.184 – 07:42:54.504] And, and you know what hap- w-what happened when treatment came in, and you could safely say it about every town in America. [07:42:54.504 – 07:43:04.484] When a treatment center opened a town, the number of meetings would double almost overnight because there's this, this insistence on 90 in 90 and that kind of stuff. [07:43:04.484 – 07:43:06.984] And, and many times they're just not there.

[07:43:06.984 – 07:43:14.064] And so an awful lot of people started throwing together little meetings that are ju- that's all they are, just meetings so you get together, "How's your day? [07:43:14.064 – 07:43:14.704] How's it going? [07:43:14.704 – 07:43:17.324] Are you hanging in there?" You know, those, that's nice stuff. [07:43:17.324 – 07:43:21.464] But most of those are one-dimensional meetings. [07:43:21.464 – 07:43:28.164] They're about me and my survival, and never get to think even a consideration of, like, a family thing. [07:43:28.164 – 07:43:38.304] Most of them, closed or not, uh, it's as if they're closed because it's only AA, uh, aspirants or members,

[07:43:38.304 – 07:43:39.384] you know. [07:43:39.384 – 07:43:42.604] And, and so what it does is effectively shuts out the family. [07:43:42.604 – 07:43:44.264] It just shuts it out. [07:43:44.264 – 07:43:50.984] And, and, and so you get these one-dimensional meetings, and you can see that it, it severs that relationship. [07:43:50.984 – 07:43:56.344] So it's, it's a, it's a, you know, something I'm sensitive to. [07:43:56.344 – 07:44:02.484] And, and you, uh, uh, I don't know how much I can do, but I contribute some, uh, uh, and you can too. [07:44:02.484 – 07:44:04.763] Uh, that's why I just wanna share it with you.

[07:44:04.763 – 07:44:14.964] Um, the other thing that's happened that, um, and I don't, and I don't, I don't know how it is in Florida, but around the country, [07:44:14.964 – 07:44:19.264] open speaker meetings are becoming a, a, a rarity. [07:44:19.264 – 07:44:22.384] Good open speaker meetings are a rarity. [07:44:22.384 – 07:44:28.064] And there, there are places that have none, uh, in this country. [07:44:28.064 – 07:44:32.224] And, and, and you, and I would submit to you, that's a major loss. [07:44:32.224 – 07:44:33.604] That's a major loss. [07:44:33.604 – 07:44:35.844] That's where most people identify. [07:44:35.844 – 07:44:38.204] They don't identify with a lot of philosophy.

[07:44:38.204 – 07:44:40.724] Identify with how you were broken and healed. [07:44:40.724 – 07:44:43.904] That's where you join, and open speaker meetings are great for that. [07:44:43.904 – 07:44:46.404] They're also great for family. [07:44:46.404 – 07:44:51.464] Uh, and I told you about my wife and, uh, that she loved open speaker meetings. [07:44:51.464 – 07:44:52.084] She did. [07:44:52.084 – 07:44:56.714] That's where she learned the spirit of recovery. [07:44:56.714 – 07:45:01.693] And, uh, and so it, uh, uh, so it's, it's such a vital thing. [07:45:01.693 – 07:45:04.484] And, and they're, and they're sparse. [07:45:04.484 – 07:45:05.504] They're really sparse. [07:45:05.504 – 07:45:11.764] And, and so anything you, that, that you can do, if you wanna make a contribution, encourage open speaker meetings.

[07:45:11.764 – 07:45:12.594] You know, encourage them. [07:45:12.594 – 07:45:17.384] If you now have, have a group that's nothing but a closed meeting, you got a one-dimensional entity, you know. [07:45:17.384 – 07:45:19.204] And so it's, talk it up a little bit. [07:45:19.204 – 07:45:19.804] See if you can't … [07:45:19.804 – 07:45:22.544] You, you mentioned the thing that, that Clearwater did. [07:45:22.544 – 07:45:24.844] You know, that, that's where the happening is. [07:45:24.844 – 07:45:26.824] You know, you got where the whole program comes alive. [07:45:26.824 – 07:45:27.844] Ray, excuse me. [07:45:27.844 – 07:45:29.904] Hi, everybody. [07:45:29.904 – 07:45:30.964] I'm Ray, alcoholic. [07:45:30.964 – 07:45:31.684] Hey, Ray. [07:45:31.684 – 07:45:41.684] Um I, I believe this, and this is the way I first come to Alcoholics Anonymous, and anybody that

[07:45:41.684 – 07:45:44.944] I'd met in Alcoholics Anonymous came in the same way. [07:45:44.944 – 07:45:48.043] They were 12 Stepped into the rooms on a 12 step call. [07:45:48.043 – 07:45:48.344] Mm. [07:45:48.344 – 07:45:53.423] And, um, and they were open speaker meetings. [07:45:53.423 – 07:45:53.804] Yeah. [07:45:53.804 – 07:46:01.144] And they, um, they took me to a few meetings, and then they cut me loose and says, "Now you know where these meetings are. [07:46:01.144 – 07:46:03.564] Take your wife with you." Yeah, yeah. [07:46:03.564 – 07:46:08.284] And she was the, um, spouse of the souse, you know? [07:46:08.284 – 07:46:18.424] But you know what happened is that she kind of mingled with the other spouses of the souses and, uh,

[07:46:18.424 – 07:46:21.384] found out that it wasn't her fault that I'm a drunk, you know? [07:46:21.384 – 07:46:22.724] Yeah, yeah. [07:46:22.724 – 07:46:25.344] Um, what an experience. [07:46:25.344 – 07:46:27.344] What a, what a, uh, what an eye-opener. [07:46:27.344 – 07:46:31.874] But the, the two guys, um, uh … [07:46:31.874 – 07:46:42.104] And I, I s- I believe this today, uh, the fella that called on me was bringing a newcomer, showing him how to do this calling on a drunk, [07:46:42.104 – 07:46:42.384] you know? [07:46:42.384 – 07:46:52.484] And he was in the, uh, same profession that I am, the same trade, which was an icebreaker

[07:46:52.484 – 07:46:52.824] too. [07:46:52.824 – 07:46:53.934] Mm-hmm. [07:46:53.934 – 07:46:58.824] But they didn't hesitate to talk to a family member about- Mm, mm-hmm … [07:46:58.824 – 07:47:03.224] you to learn a little bit more about you than you might not reveal to them, you know? [07:47:03.224 – 07:47:04.024] Yeah, yeah. [07:47:04.024 – 07:47:09.904] So, uh, they used every th- means available to find out all they could about the person they were taking to a meeting. [07:47:09.904 – 07:47:15.164] Um, and remember that. [07:47:15.164 – 07:47:16.024] Mm-hmm. [07:47:16.024 – 07:47:26.244] Um, in, uh, I, um, had the pleasure of meeting, uh, Diana in the Youngstown area and, um, her husband.

[07:47:26.244 – 07:47:38.654] Um, and, and most of those old-timers back then were, um, well, they were young-timers then, but- … [07:47:38.654 – 07:47:42.804] uh, they were very dedicated to, uh, their singleness of purpose, you know? [07:47:42.804 – 07:47:49.144] Um, I just, I just thank God the way I got here. [07:47:49.144 – 07:47:54.124] I really, um, one drunk talking to another drunk. [07:47:54.124 – 07:47:55.304] Yeah, yeah. [07:47:55.304 – 07:48:04.084] And but with a commitment to, um … [07:48:04.084 – 07:48:06.664] And, and I believe this too that, uh, quoted from Dr. [07:48:06.664 – 07:48:08.904] Bob, that this is a family illness, you know?

[07:48:08.904 – 07:48:09.864] Mm-hmm. [07:48:09.864 – 07:48:19.764] And, uh, the, uh, our, our children aren't, uh, uh, absolved from not drinking, you know? [07:48:19.764 – 07:48:19.894] Yeah. [07:48:19.894 – 07:48:21.204] I mean, uh, it- Sure … [07:48:21.204 – 07:48:28.084] it, I was, uh, I was probably an, an alcoholic before I realized it, but I didn't realize it, you know? [07:48:28.084 – 07:48:30.604] I had the ism all along, you know? [07:48:30.604 – 07:48:30.754] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. [07:48:30.754 – 07:48:37.384] Uh, alcohol, uh, was introduced later after I suffered a lot from the ism, you know? [07:48:37.384 – 07:48:38.514] Yeah, yeah. [07:48:38.514 – 07:48:44.204] Um, but I'm just thankful that I found AA the way that I did, you know?

[07:48:44.204 – 07:48:44.724] Mm-hmm. [07:48:44.724 – 07:48:47.484] And, uh, not only that. [07:48:47.484 – 07:48:53.204] They, they, they also took me to jails to talk to the drunks in the drunk tank. [07:48:53.204 – 07:48:53.624] Mm-hmm. [07:48:53.624 – 07:48:57.223] They took me to detox to talk to the guys in detox. [07:48:57.223 – 07:49:00.944] And, uh, you know, that's been, that's quite an experience. [07:49:00.944 – 07:49:01.804] And, uh- Yeah … [07:49:01.804 – 07:49:03.194] Youngstown, uh, de- Yeah … [07:49:03.194 – 07:49:08.964] Youngstown Clinic was a very popular place at that time, along with, uh, St. [07:49:08.964 – 07:49:10.564] Thomas Hospital and, uh- Yeah … [07:49:10.564 – 07:49:11.524] also that St. [07:49:11.524 – 07:49:12.984] Vincent Charity in Cleveland.

[07:49:12.984 – 07:49:13.894] Yeah. [07:49:13.894 – 07:49:20.484] And, uh, so that, that's, uh, that was my introduction. [07:49:20.484 – 07:49:20.924] Yeah. [07:49:20.924 – 07:49:25.864] But also, I haven't found it necessary to divorce my wife. [07:49:25.864 – 07:49:28.754] You know, we've been married 57 years, so. [07:49:28.754 – 07:49:29.414] Say, "Yeah." Yeah. [07:49:29.414 – 07:49:30.224] And keep her alert. [07:49:30.224 – 07:49:30.314] Yeah, yeah. [07:49:30.314 – 07:49:30.444] You know? [07:49:30.444 – 07:49:30.784] Okay. [07:49:30.784 – 07:49:32.304] Say, "Yeah." So. [07:49:32.304 – 07:49:33.424] Yeah. [07:49:33.424 – 07:49:35.264] Been married longer than I've been sober. [07:49:35.264 – 07:49:35.644] Yeah. [07:49:35.644 – 07:49:37.264] Yeah. [07:49:37.264 – 07:49:38.524] But I put her through a lot. [07:49:38.524 – 07:49:38.754] Yeah, yeah. [07:49:38.754 – 07:49:41.624] And, uh, she's, uh, I tell you what, she's very thankful. [07:49:41.624 – 07:49:41.933] Yeah. [07:49:41.933 – 07:49:44.824] And a lot of calls come in for me when I'm not home that- Sure, sure …

[07:49:44.824 – 07:49:46.824] she can handle them too, you know? [07:49:46.824 – 07:49:47.014] Uh. [07:49:47.014 – 07:49:47.584] Yeah. [07:49:47.584 – 07:49:48.504] So- Yeah … [07:49:48.504 – 07:49:51.343] I want to thank you personally for being here this weekend. [07:49:51.343 – 07:49:51.733] You bet, buddy. [07:49:51.733 – 07:49:51.984] Thank you. [07:49:51.984 – 07:49:52.804] What a pleasure. [07:49:52.804 – 07:49:53.473] And I- And you guys … [07:49:53.473 – 07:49:54.584] folks, I'm, thanks Ray. [07:49:54.584 – 07:49:56.824] And but I'm gonna have to leave now, my- Yeah. [07:49:56.824 – 07:49:56.874] Okay. [07:49:56.874 – 07:49:57.054] All right … [07:49:57.054 – 07:50:03.964] my, my man said, "Get in the truck, Gus." So I'm gonna have to leave, and I, I'd really hate to not be able to say goodbye except globally.

[07:50:03.964 – 07:50:09.264] And, uh, but it's great being with you, and I sure miss you w- uh, uh, wish you well. [07:50:09.264 – 07:50:13.244] And if you're not having fun, get off your duff and have some. [07:50:13.244 – 07:50:14.164] You're great. [07:50:14.164 – 07:50:14.684] Thank you.