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[00:00:00.660 – 00:00:05.420] I tell you this, a buddy of mine uses the term the power of now. [00:00:05.420 – 00:00:13.890] And, uh, boy, is that ever, is that ever a powerful concept because history has no power. [00:00:13.890 – 00:00:15.120] It has value. [00:00:15.120 – 00:00:17.720] It doesn't have power, and the future doesn't, either. [00:00:17.720 – 00:00:21.640] If I'm living in one or the other, I'm almost powerless. [00:00:21.640 – 00:00:29.360] And so the, the real, real important concept of being where I am and, uh, recognizing that this is it. [00:00:29.360 – 00:00:31.060] This is– it ain't preparation.

[00:00:31.060 – 00:00:31.600] This is it. [00:00:31.600 – 00:00:37.260] Uh, I'd like to just sort of continue along with… [00:00:37.260 – 00:00:41.740] I would– Ross, uh, let me ask you. [00:00:41.740 – 00:00:44.800] The mic won't pick up stuff from the group, will it? [00:00:44.800 – 00:00:46.400] Okay. [00:00:46.400 – 00:00:51.400] Uh, now, I personally really like interactive stuff. [00:00:51.400 – 00:00:56.220] You know, I, I think there's an absolute relationship between participation and value. [00:00:56.220 – 00:01:05.519] And, uh, might make this deal with you if, um, if, uh, to, to just selfishly get a little of that. [00:01:05.519 – 00:01:09.160] Uh, let me just, just make it available.

[00:01:09.160 – 00:01:17.300] If you wanna ask a question or make a comment, uh, and can do it in a soundbite style, you, you know what I mean. [00:01:17.300 – 00:01:19.800] Not a long, long question. [00:01:19.800 – 00:01:28.119] Sometimes I'll get to listen to those C-SPAN programs, and I swear to God, the question's longer than the presentation, you know? [00:01:28.119 – 00:01:38.140] So, but if you can just sort of distill it, and then what we can do is repeat it because it is maddening on a tape [00:01:38.140 – 00:01:41.400] to listen to an answer that's not connected to a question.

[00:01:41.400 – 00:01:45.800] It's a brilliant answer, but what's it about, you know? [00:01:45.800 – 00:01:49.520] And, and so if you would, and if you just wanna make comments, same thing. [00:01:49.520 – 00:01:50.580] Just, just kind of… [00:01:50.580 – 00:01:53.880] Not 'cause we wouldn't want to hear you, but because we couldn't remember it. [00:01:53.880 – 00:01:56.140] And just about make it soundbite style. [00:01:56.140 – 00:01:58.220] But, uh, that, I would really appreciate that. [00:01:58.220 – 00:02:05.820] 'Cause what, what I'd, I'd like to kind of lead us into is continuation of this effectiveness deal. [00:02:05.820 – 00:02:15.000] Now, I suspect that the, um, that this group is essentially– I know we've got some pretty new cases here, but, but that's the minority.

[00:02:15.000 – 00:02:21.920] I suspect this group are people who are involved fairly heavily in the business of working with others. [00:02:21.920 – 00:02:31.920] And, uh, there are some real tricky grounds in that business of working with others, that sometimes the, the, the harder we work, the less [00:02:31.920 – 00:02:32.440] we get. [00:02:32.440 – 00:02:41.420] And that old cryptic kind of comment that less is more really applies sometimes in this business of, of effectiveness. [00:02:41.420 – 00:02:45.200] And so I'd, I'd like to just kind of talk, talk a little bit more about that.

[00:02:45.200 – 00:02:48.620] And for that re– I'd really like to get some interactive stuff in there if we can. [00:02:48.620 – 00:02:53.440] Now, I have to warn you, I'm not somebody who, who milks a crowd, you know? [00:02:53.440 – 00:03:01.340] So, uh, I, I make that offer, but it's up to you to get in because when I get going, it's kind of like jumping on a running train. [00:03:01.340 – 00:03:01.800] I mean… [00:03:01.800 – 00:03:04.760] Old man. [00:03:04.760 – 00:03:14.860] Uh, so just, just give me a signal or just speak up if you wanna do something like that.

[00:03:14.860 – 00:03:26.560] Um, just j-j-jumping ahead just a little bit to nineteen, the, uh, that [00:03:26.560 – 00:03:27.480] first paragraph. [00:03:27.480 – 00:03:37.860] The, the other one's talking about that, those personal qualities that sort of earn the confidence and open up the dialogue with an alcoholic. [00:03:37.860 – 00:03:48.120] And we spent some good time last night, uh, out, out on the porch chasing mosquitoes and, uh, and talking about effectiveness and, and the frustration [00:03:48.120 – 00:03:51.400] that comes from working hard and, and getting in our own way. [00:03:51.400 – 00:03:57.860] And, uh, so that one paragraph, I'll just kind of go through that paragraph with you.

[00:03:57.860 – 00:04:05.459] None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. [00:04:05.459 – 00:04:15.580] I was, I was sitting in a meeting last night or last week in my, uh, in my home group, and we have a little spin-off group that's a big book, [00:04:15.580 – 00:04:17.880] you know, just a big book discussion type thing. [00:04:17.880 – 00:04:29.160] And there was a, a, a g-a gal there, a fine person, who, uh, who was, who was talking about this,

[00:04:29.160 – 00:04:35.440] this paragraph in, uh, this statement in, in, in the context of working professionally in the field. [00:04:35.440 – 00:04:45.920] And, and, uh, that's, that's a subtle trap involved in that because there is a tremendously important difference [00:04:45.920 – 00:04:53.620] between work that I do professionally and work that I do as an avocation in this giving for free and for fun. [00:04:53.620 – 00:05:03.620] And, and, and, and so this thing here, uh, this, I guess, it was kind of an interesting case, you know, that, uh, I won't, I won't beat

[00:05:03.620 – 00:05:12.340] you to death with the case, but this, this, this gal is fairly new to our group, and she's got some disease. [00:05:12.340 – 00:05:13.640] I, I don't know what it is. [00:05:13.640 – 00:05:14.480] None of my business. [00:05:14.480 – 00:05:19.400] But it has put her in a wheelchair, and she's pretty profoundly disabled. [00:05:19.400 – 00:05:29.500] And so when she was talking about what she did as a vocation in response to this paragraph, she talked about what she had done [00:05:29.500 – 00:05:35.500] as a professional evaluator and teacher of drunk driving.

[00:05:35.500 – 00:05:36.380] I, I mean, I don't know. [00:05:36.380 – 00:05:41.800] I don't think teaching drunk driving- Whatever they teach. [00:05:41.800 – 00:05:43.020] I never have been through that. [00:05:43.020 – 00:05:44.580] But thank God. [00:05:44.580 – 00:05:54.580] Uh, but she was talking about that in, in the context of, of, uh, of, of, of this business about how, [00:05:54.580 – 00:05:59.640] how doing this as a vocation can interfere with our effectiveness. [00:05:59.640 – 00:06:02.700] Well, let me talk about two levels of that just a minute. [00:06:02.700 – 00:06:04.159] One is the obvious. [00:06:04.159 – 00:06:14.264] You know, if I can't learn to distinguish what I do professionally from what I do personally, uh, I got no business in that profession,

[00:06:14.264 – 00:06:17.724] uh, because I get nothing but trouble and cause nothing but grief. [00:06:17.724 – 00:06:27.824] And I know a lot of pe– I sponsor a lot of folk who, who have worked in treatment, and the biggest problem that happens is when folks forget where they are and [00:06:27.824 – 00:06:32.344] forget how to, how to distinguish clearly and importantly between the two. [00:06:32.344 – 00:06:37.424] Um, so, so, so a tremendously important thing. [00:06:37.424 – 00:06:41.664] Recovered alcoholics have a great contribution to make in that field. [00:06:41.664 – 00:06:43.224] Absolutely nothing wrong with it.

[00:06:43.224 – 00:06:49.843] But if we can't understand the professionalism of that, it's, it's a real boogeyman. [00:06:49.843 – 00:06:59.864] And, um, so when I'm working with somebody who works professionally in the field, part of the way that I monitor them is to listen to them in [00:06:59.864 – 00:07:00.304] meetings. [00:07:00.304 – 00:07:02.604] I don't need to ask them twenty questions. [00:07:02.604 – 00:07:04.384] I listen to them in meetings. [00:07:04.384 – 00:07:14.564] And when I hear somebody in a discussion that gets into therapeutic counseling, I know we need to go to the woodshed because, because

[00:07:14.564 – 00:07:15.824] it's gotten out of whack. [00:07:15.824 – 00:07:20.244] Or if I hear, hear somebody making a talk, and it's a lecture. [00:07:20.244 – 00:07:29.763] And it happens so easily with somebody who's accustomed to doing lectures, and they start doing a talk, and that lecture format comes in. [00:07:29.763 – 00:07:39.144] And when that happens, it kills the value of the avocation, the value of the gift of this earning the trust and confidence. [00:07:39.144 – 00:07:46.324] So it's a, it's a tremendously important thing in terms of, of maintaining the viability and the effectiveness.

[00:07:46.324 – 00:07:51.044] If I can't distinguish that, uh, then I've got a lot of trouble. [00:07:51.044 – 00:07:53.264] So it's a challenge, a real challenge. [00:07:53.264 – 00:08:01.984] You– I'm sure you run into– Shelly does– I don't mean to put your business in the street, but she does professional research and excellent research. [00:08:01.984 – 00:08:12.004] But, uh, those kind of things can really steal your mind, you know, and you get to thinking analytically about what's happening here instead of the experience, [00:08:12.004 – 00:08:13.324] of feeling the experience. [00:08:13.324 – 00:08:17.044] And so it, it's a tricky area.

[00:08:17.044 – 00:08:27.204] The, uh, other part of that, and part of what we were talking about last night, i-is about the, the [00:08:27.204 – 00:08:37.924] good balance that makes the recovery that I practice attractive to somebody else, and it makes it effective to other– with other people. [00:08:37.924 – 00:08:39.544] Uh, to give you a couple examples. [00:08:39.544 – 00:08:49.744] I, when, when I first, uh, when I, when I first got on the street and started, uh, I, I had the, the privilege, it really [00:08:49.744 – 00:08:59.344] was a privilege, didn't seem like it at the time, but I had the privilege of, of helping start Alcoholics Anonymous, restart Alcoholics Anonymous in a fairly large city in our state.

[00:08:59.344 – 00:09:04.604] But it just, it just died, you know, and, and so it was a very, very busy time. [00:09:04.604 – 00:09:09.964] And, uh, I sponsored about everybody in town, ju-just about everybody that was sober. [00:09:09.964 – 00:09:10.564] It wasn't many. [00:09:10.564 – 00:09:14.204] It was a gang, uh, more than I could keep up with. [00:09:14.204 – 00:09:19.664] And back then, that sponsor talk that Don was talking about was my language. [00:09:19.664 – 00:09:28.624] Um, during that period, uh, my, my basic message to folk was get in the car. [00:09:28.624 – 00:09:32.124] And if this car is full, get in the next car, you know.

[00:09:32.124 – 00:09:42.144] And so, and what we would do would be to chase around to meetings within reasonable access, meaning within fifty miles, we could usually make, and, uh, [00:09:42.144 – 00:09:43.544] run convoys. [00:09:43.544 – 00:09:46.324] And, and that was really the deal. [00:09:46.324 – 00:09:51.604] And I'm sponsoring so many people, can't even get to know all of them, much less work with them intensively. [00:09:51.604 – 00:09:53.844] Well, and that was fine. [00:09:53.844 – 00:10:03.864] A-and I'll guarantee you, if, if a campaign had been put out to identify the best speak– uh, best sponsor in the known world, uh,

[00:10:03.864 – 00:10:05.764] among those guys, it would have been me. [00:10:05.764 – 00:10:12.094] I guarantee you, Tom Ivester was the finest thing that has ever come along, the finest speaker the world's ever known. [00:10:12.094 – 00:10:14.404] Of course, it's the only one, only one it ever had. [00:10:14.404 – 00:10:22.544] But it, it would have been a handy heads down victory, but. [00:10:22.544 – 00:10:26.384] Well, a, a troubling thing happened. [00:10:26.384 – 00:10:34.724] Two years after I went into that city and, and, uh, got a good, strong group going, uh, I had, I had to move away.

[00:10:34.724 – 00:10:38.544] And all but one got drunk. [00:10:38.544 – 00:10:39.904] All but one. [00:10:39.904 – 00:10:42.684] Now, that mean I was a lousy sponsor? [00:10:42.684 – 00:10:44.344] Well, not necessarily. [00:10:44.344 – 00:10:45.764] You know, I was doing the best I knew. [00:10:45.764 – 00:10:46.984] I just didn't know enough. [00:10:46.984 – 00:10:48.774] And, and see, what I was [00:10:49.015 – 00:10:59.215] So busy doing was– I was so busy doing the stuff of get in the car or you sweep the floor and that I never did [00:10:59.215 – 00:11:02.155] let them see what the solution was. [00:11:02.155 – 00:11:04.675] You know, I never did get into the solution with them.

[00:11:04.675 – 00:11:08.874] All they knew is that I was wonderful, and if they followed me, they were okay. [00:11:08.874 – 00:11:12.715] Well, they were right as long as I was available to do that. [00:11:12.715 – 00:11:14.455] But the minute I stepped back… [00:11:14.455 – 00:11:16.075] See what I'm talking about? [00:11:16.075 – 00:11:21.194] The effectiveness doesn't come from that kind of charismatic cheerleader stuff. [00:11:21.194 – 00:11:27.715] It, it's about real solutions, real connection to their life, and not just being a camp follower to me. [00:11:27.715 – 00:11:32.935] And, and so even though it was well-intended, you know, effectiveness required more.

[00:11:32.935 – 00:11:43.015] Uh, and, you know, what it said on there earlier about being equipped not only with experience but with having real insight about myself, [00:11:43.015 – 00:11:49.115] real knowledge about this program, who has really found a solution and is able to communicate that to somebody else. [00:11:49.115 – 00:11:51.895] Yeah, I, I didn't quite make it that far. [00:11:51.895 – 00:11:56.475] And so it can, it can really interfere, you know, with, with getting that. [00:11:56.475 – 00:12:06.595] I, uh, you know, I'm an extremely active member of AA, and, um, I've had an interesting history in a,

[00:12:06.595 – 00:12:07.055] in a way. [00:12:07.055 – 00:12:09.335] You're talking about a young people's group that you got. [00:12:09.335 – 00:12:12.695] I started the first young people's group in North Carolina. [00:12:12.695 – 00:12:16.955] There, there were three of us and, and, uh, the group still meets to this day. [00:12:16.955 – 00:12:21.495] Uh, thirty-eight years ago, we started that, that group. [00:12:21.495 – 00:12:26.635] And so at that time, I was the youngest member of AA in North Carolina. [00:12:26.635 – 00:12:36.715] And, uh, I thought in the whole world because God knows I never saw anybody And strange thing happens if you keep on

[00:12:36.715 – 00:12:37.215] breathing. [00:12:37.215 – 00:12:42.815] I'm now the oldest recovered man in North Carolina . [00:12:42.815 – 00:12:45.595] I'm the relic of the past. [00:12:45.595 – 00:12:46.855] You know, that's it. [00:12:46.855 – 00:12:51.615] The only thing is that I'm still one of the most active people I've ever met. [00:12:51.615 – 00:12:56.075] And, uh, that has a real– It's part of what we were talking about last night. [00:12:56.075 – 00:12:58.215] That's a double-edged sword. [00:12:58.215 – 00:13:09.435] That thing, uh, cuts both ways because it's– when you get a guy that's the oldest guy in the state that's as active as I am, this

[00:13:09.435 – 00:13:12.255] can have a repelling effect on people. [00:13:12.255 – 00:13:17.195] It's not necessarily gonna be a galvanizing magnet to people. [00:13:17.195 – 00:13:19.855] It can be a repelling factor. [00:13:19.855 – 00:13:29.895] And, and this business of, of being able to demonstrate a life that is– that speaks of the solution is tremendously [00:13:29.895 – 00:13:30.455] important. [00:13:30.455 – 00:13:40.595] And, uh, you know, so I have to recognize that, that most people are probably not gonna be able to, to, to, to, to, [00:13:40.595 – 00:13:41.995] to take off like I do. [00:13:41.995 – 00:13:50.075] You know, important for me to recognize that we are truly different people, and we're driven by different forces.

[00:13:50.075 – 00:13:56.635] Uh, you know, I'm, I'm somebody, in my simplistic way of looking at stuff, I like to keep it simple so I can understand it. [00:13:56.635 – 00:14:03.335] Uh, I, I like to think that my recovery has to match my drinking pattern. [00:14:03.335 – 00:14:12.415] If my recovery doesn't match up with how I drink, I'm probably gonna find it a little lacking because that's my chemistry. [00:14:12.415 – 00:14:13.735] That's the way I function. [00:14:13.735 – 00:14:14.595] That's the way I am. [00:14:14.595 – 00:14:19.115] I'm basically a kind of guy that has a lot of, of compulsive drive.

[00:14:19.115 – 00:14:22.435] You know, I'm, I'm, I'm not somebody who can sit and vegetate. [00:14:22.435 – 00:14:26.795] You know, I'm somebody who's, like Don said, the mind doesn't shut down for a long time. [00:14:26.795 – 00:14:36.915] And, and, and I also have to keep in mind that a considerable amount of what I do in AA [00:14:36.915 – 00:14:39.215] is a part of my amends structure. [00:14:39.215 – 00:14:43.795] It, it just– It's not just zeal to be a missionary. [00:14:43.795 – 00:14:48.855] It's, it's about a very real and effective way of making amends. [00:14:48.855 – 00:14:57.675] And, and so, you know, I have to keep that in mind when I'm working with people and, and, and not try to get people to emulate who I am.

[00:14:57.675 – 00:15:08.055] Tremendously important because I've had so many people, as, as what we were beating around last night, who– that I sponsored who, who said that [00:15:08.055 – 00:15:11.535] they had difficulty working with me because it was intimidating. [00:15:11.535 – 00:15:21.855] It was not invigorating or inspiring, but intimidating to work with somebody that's got that kind of energy and, and, and, and [00:15:21.855 – 00:15:22.915] zeal to do stuff. [00:15:22.915 – 00:15:30.415] Uh, so when I'm looking at effectiveness, it's important for me to recognize what is effective. [00:15:30.415 – 00:15:32.075] What's the right agenda?

[00:15:32.075 – 00:15:38.215] Uh, how do I help people achieve their potential and not conform to my model? [00:15:38.215 – 00:15:38.975] You know? [00:15:38.975 – 00:15:40.635] And that's an important thing. [00:15:40.635 – 00:15:47.095] Like, I was, I was at a, at a prison one night at, uh, Central Prison in Raleigh, a maximum custody joint. [00:15:47.095 – 00:15:50.575] And a guy came over to the– after me. [00:15:50.575 – 00:15:51.795] Now picture this. [00:15:51.795 – 00:15:53.395] I'm in a maximum custody joint. [00:15:53.395 – 00:16:00.095] Guy comes over to the meeting, and we was talking a little bit, and he said, "Let me ask you a personal question, if you don't mind." I said, "Yeah, anything.

[00:16:00.095 – 00:16:08.615] Go on." He said, "Do you have to do this thing like you do it to stay sober?" I said, "Well, not necessarily. [00:16:08.615 – 00:16:12.805] What are you talking about?" He said, "I swear to God, you're so busy, you make me tired." You know? [00:16:12.805 – 00:16:22.875] And I said, I said, "Well, no, you really don't have to do it like I do." But I said, "One thing y'all take a look about [00:16:22.875 – 00:16:23.355] at. [00:16:23.355 – 00:16:28.955] You sitting in a maximum custody prison saying you don't want the kind of life I got, and I'm walking the street.

[00:16:28.955 – 00:16:39.135] I ain't swapping with you either, buddy." But, but it's a sneaky thing, y'all, in this thing of what it is that I convey [00:16:39.135 – 00:16:39.675] to people. [00:16:39.675 – 00:16:46.345] And if I want to be effective, you know, it's important for me to, to take a look at what kind of an example am I? [00:16:46.345 – 00:16:48.575] What kind of expectations do I put on folk? [00:16:48.575 – 00:16:57.419] And, uh- And, and does my life really reflect a kind of life that looks like sobriety is a good thing to do?

[00:16:57.419 – 00:17:02.239] And so it's not just a given that just 'cause I've been there that I'm gonna be a real effective guy. [00:17:02.239 – 00:17:05.459] You wanna comment about that, any, Don? [00:17:05.459 – 00:17:08.299] Sure. [00:17:08.299 – 00:17:11.939] Huh? [00:17:11.939 – 00:17:12.579] Why not? [00:17:12.579 – 00:17:14.229] Be quite fine. [00:17:14.229 – 00:17:14.799] Go for it. [00:17:14.799 – 00:17:20.179] No, I was, I was musing and listening. [00:17:20.179 – 00:17:25.839] We only have one thing that we're supposed to do. [00:17:25.839 – 00:17:36.719] That's carry our message to the person who doesn't, doesn't know, and then whenever possible, lead them on the journey of self-discovery. [00:17:36.719 – 00:17:46.759] Uh, Bill suggests to us that any time we're approaching a new person, we should get into their shoes and

[00:17:46.759 – 00:17:52.379] see how they would like to be approached rather than me coming out of my, my box and my angle. [00:17:52.379 – 00:18:02.409] In 1988, I've, I've had the privilege of serving this fellowship from the beginning, and in, in the mid-'80s, [00:18:02.409 – 00:18:06.839] I was your Trustee at Large US, which I thought was funny. [00:18:06.839 – 00:18:09.019] I am not trustee material. [00:18:09.019 – 00:18:12.339] But I was a good one. [00:18:12.339 – 00:18:22.399] But as a result of that, we had occasion in November of 1988 to be invited by the Russians to the Soviet Union

[00:18:22.399 – 00:18:24.699] to tell them about Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:18:24.699 – 00:18:34.399] This is a different culture, a different language, a different approach to things. [00:18:34.399 – 00:18:39.639] There were rules in the books at the time that no more than five people could gather without a permit. [00:18:39.639 – 00:18:42.259] There were heavy duty restrictions. [00:18:42.259 – 00:18:47.359] Uh, we had to consider all that. [00:18:47.359 – 00:18:49.299] How are we gonna approach these people? [00:18:49.299 – 00:18:55.059] Now, we had taken a group of them around the United States on a 10-day trip. [00:18:55.059 – 00:19:01.489] S– Th-there's a whole afternoon story in that deal .

[00:19:01.489 – 00:19:08.099] And they told us, see we– to be effective, I must be a listener. [00:19:08.099 – 00:19:13.559] You need to tell me where you're at, so I can help you move to the next place. [00:19:13.559 – 00:19:18.479] If I try to get you to move on where I think you're at, I'm gonna move you into the wrong place. [00:19:18.479 – 00:19:20.379] It won't be any good. [00:19:20.379 – 00:19:30.489] We asked these Russians, "Should we come to your country?" And they said, "Absolutely, and here's how you do it." They

[00:19:30.489 – 00:19:34.839] said, "If you come as a government mission, you're gonna get a show and tell. [00:19:34.839 – 00:19:44.099] They'll give you a KGB agent that'll take you around, and nothing will be accomplished." They said, "You know us now, and you know some other people, and here's another list of people. [00:19:44.099 – 00:19:47.659] Write us all letters and say, 'We're gonna be in Moscow on such and such a date. [00:19:47.659 – 00:19:52.779] We'd like to stop by and visit,' and we will confirm that." Shelly's been there.

[00:19:52.779 – 00:19:54.379] That's how you do business there. [00:19:54.379 – 00:20:04.439] So four of us and an interpreter were picked to spend 17 days just sharing [00:20:04.439 – 00:20:11.699] the AA message with these folks who we really needed to be effective. [00:20:11.699 – 00:20:15.959] Uh, don't want any pressure. [00:20:15.959 – 00:20:19.569] It's just that if we didn't do the job, we're another five years wondering what's gonna happen. [00:20:19.569 – 00:20:21.319] Don't put any pressure on me. [00:20:21.319 – 00:20:23.379] Mm, mm-mm. [00:20:23.379 – 00:20:25.879] Millions of lives are at stake, but don't worry about it. [00:20:25.879 – 00:20:31.639] But we got by there 'cause I, I learned a long time ago there's not millions of lives at stake.

[00:20:31.639 – 00:20:34.279] There's one, mine. [00:20:34.279 – 00:20:35.379] Yeah. [00:20:35.379 – 00:20:37.199] And then when you show up, there's two. [00:20:37.199 – 00:20:37.749] Mm-hmm. [00:20:37.749 – 00:20:39.999] And that's, that's what we're all about. [00:20:39.999 – 00:20:48.399] So in the midst of all of that, we got a chance to try being effective. [00:20:48.399 – 00:20:58.519] How can we approach this in a way that will– First of all, I kept saying, "We don't have any way to relate to God. [00:20:58.519 – 00:21:03.859] We don't believe in God." But as we listened, we found they were a very, very spiritual people. [00:21:03.859 – 00:21:05.899] In fact, we had to laugh.

[00:21:05.899 – 00:21:07.739] They said, "We don't have any history of God. [00:21:07.739 – 00:21:18.499] Would you like to go see the big cathedral?" Now, they were museums to them at that time, but they were just a very spiritual people. [00:21:18.499 – 00:21:25.179] We went over our traditions with them, and one– the comment of one Russian was, "You should have no trouble here. [00:21:25.179 – 00:21:32.499] What you have here is communism in its purest form." See, they weren't communists. [00:21:32.499 – 00:21:37.359] They were socialist republic on the way to communism. [00:21:38.977 – 00:21:42.597] There should be no problem, uh, with that in principle.

[00:21:42.597 – 00:21:51.817] So we dealt with it one day at a time, trying to find out how can we best serve them so they can get it going. [00:21:51.817 – 00:21:55.237] There were two events, and then my comments are over. [00:21:55.237 – 00:21:57.417] I've got a whole day of talk. [00:21:57.417 – 00:22:01.177] This was a trip beyond belief for a country boy like me. [00:22:01.177 – 00:22:11.417] We, uh, there was one tiny little group in Moscow called the Moscow Beginners Group [00:22:11.417 – 00:22:15.917] that had been started by an Episcopal priest who was insane.

[00:22:15.917 – 00:22:21.237] Now, that's just the way it was. [00:22:21.237 – 00:22:25.697] And somewhere he had power to move things. [00:22:25.697 – 00:22:29.537] He got us inside the Kremlin and, uh, set things up. [00:22:29.537 – 00:22:31.017] The guy was something else. [00:22:31.017 – 00:22:37.437] And what he had done in setting it up was set it up according to AA's principles, pure and simple. [00:22:37.437 – 00:22:38.897] They operated by the traditions. [00:22:38.897 – 00:22:40.537] There were step meetings. [00:22:40.537 – 00:22:50.537] I remember the joy of sitting in a, in a meeting with the Moscow Beginners Group, and a fellow named Sasha was talking, a former,

[00:22:50.537 – 00:22:57.577] uh, radio announcer who had lost his job, because at that time, if you were caught as a, as a drunk, it was a crime. [00:22:57.577 – 00:22:59.137] You lost your apartment. [00:22:59.137 – 00:22:59.957] You lost your job. [00:22:59.957 – 00:23:00.777] You went to treatment. [00:23:00.777 – 00:23:02.737] If you slipped, you went to Siberia. [00:23:02.737 – 00:23:04.677] You were a social deviant. [00:23:04.677 – 00:23:06.737] You got to know that. [00:23:06.737 – 00:23:09.077] We're not that far away from that in this country. [00:23:09.077 – 00:23:18.777] Uh, Sasha's talking, and it was really interesting because he speaks Russian and I speak English.

[00:23:18.777 – 00:23:27.457] So our interpreter, who was a simultaneous translator, Sasha would say something, and then the interpreter would let us know what he had said. [00:23:27.457 – 00:23:37.477] And Sasha would start talking again, which gave me the opportunity, since I didn't understand the language, while he's talking, I can listen about what he just said and [00:23:37.477 – 00:23:41.077] really think about that, then pay attention to what he said this time. [00:23:41.077 – 00:23:43.597] It sounds complicated, but it wasn't. [00:23:43.597 – 00:23:53.737] He said, "I had no history of God, but I wanted what these people had," meaning

[00:23:53.737 – 00:23:57.457] that small group of Russians who were not drinking anymore. [00:23:57.457 – 00:23:58.517] He wanted what they had. [00:23:58.517 – 00:24:08.477] So I said, he said, "I did what they did, and I found a spiritual power deep within myself, and I rose to that," because that's what happened to me too. [00:24:08.477 – 00:24:10.697] He found a power here. [00:24:10.697 – 00:24:13.677] But the main thing was he wanted what these people had. [00:24:13.677 – 00:24:19.237] Then we were interrogated by the Ministry of Health. [00:24:19.237 – 00:24:21.517] We weren't talked with. [00:24:21.517 – 00:24:22.737] We were interrogated. [00:24:22.737 – 00:24:28.737] We sat in a little room, and the Ministry of Health was here, and the guy sitting over here in the corner like this.

[00:24:28.737 – 00:24:31.757] I don't know who he was, but I wouldn't mess with him. [00:24:31.757 – 00:24:35.477] He was watching us, and he was watching the Ministry of Health. [00:24:35.477 – 00:24:37.657] This wasn't a friendly environment. [00:24:37.657 – 00:24:43.597] And this guy is interrogating us for a little over an hour. [00:24:43.597 – 00:24:53.617] And please know that because all of us were more interested in being effective than being right, we set aside our personal agendas somehow and never [00:24:53.617 – 00:24:54.277] defended AA. [00:24:54.277 – 00:24:56.037] You never have to defend AA. [00:24:56.037 – 00:24:58.397] You never have to defend who you are.

[00:24:58.397 – 00:25:00.277] I just have to share my experience. [00:25:00.277 – 00:25:02.257] You can't fault that. [00:25:02.257 – 00:25:04.917] You don't have to like it, but you can't fault it. [00:25:04.917 – 00:25:15.797] At the end of a little over an hour of this interrogation, the Ministry of Health said, "What can we do to help you get this started here?" Now, [00:25:15.797 – 00:25:17.237] what are you going to answer? [00:25:17.237 – 00:25:19.497] Okay. [00:25:19.497 – 00:25:21.777] This is outside of my realm. [00:25:21.777 – 00:25:29.777] I said, "Give them space." That's all we need is space. [00:25:29.777 – 00:25:36.177] Tom and I know that the job he and I did in North Carolina in corrections was mainly about giving space.

[00:25:36.177 – 00:25:38.437] Open the doors here. [00:25:38.437 – 00:25:40.057] Give them a little room or something. [00:25:40.057 – 00:25:42.277] Let somebody in that knows what's going on. [00:25:42.277 – 00:25:43.117] That's the big job. [00:25:43.117 – 00:25:49.677] The, uh, the next day, they had– it was Thanksgiving Day. [00:25:49.677 – 00:25:54.777] They allowed this little group to hold a special meeting in the Ministry of Health. [00:25:54.777 – 00:26:05.477] The other thing I meant by giving them space, and this is what I must do with people I work with to be effective, I've got to give them space to

[00:26:05.477 – 00:26:08.037] have their own experience, not my experience. [00:26:08.037 – 00:26:08.977] You can't have mine. [00:26:08.977 – 00:26:18.257] I need to help you create the space around you where you can have your own, and that takes a little bit of time, and it's very hard on me. [00:26:18.257 – 00:26:28.377] I have a human ego, and I have a spiritual ego, and my spiritual ego is even harder to deal with than the human ego because it has the answer. [00:26:28.377 – 00:26:33.997] And every now and then, it gets to think it has the answer.

[00:26:33.997 – 00:26:39.077] It's not a very long trip from one to the other. [00:26:39.077 – 00:26:40.657] Is it, Tom? [00:26:40.657 – 00:26:43.516] Oh, my group. [00:26:43.516 – 00:26:44.237] Yeah. [00:26:44.237 – 00:26:46.157] Oh, geez, protect me from that. [00:26:46.157 – 00:26:56.217] So effectiveness is about me showing up, being willing to give them space, showing them precisely what I [00:26:56.217 – 00:26:56.377] did. [00:26:56.377 – 00:26:58.117] If you want what I have, here's what it did. [00:26:58.117 – 00:27:00.517] That doesn't mean you have to do that. [00:27:00.517 – 00:27:06.477] You may discover along the way, as most people do, you really don't want what I have. [00:27:06.477 – 00:27:08.337] I'm like Tom.

[00:27:08.337 – 00:27:09.997] I'm a busy rascal. [00:27:09.997 – 00:27:20.097] Life is about living, and whether I'm busy with AA or Thursday night, I got really busy [00:27:20.097 – 00:27:21.677] with one of my favorite activities. [00:27:21.677 – 00:27:24.577] I took my grandchildren to see Blue's Clues stage show. [00:27:24.577 – 00:27:30.877] Uh, I would much rather watch Shakespeare, but this was fun. [00:27:30.877 – 00:27:34.337] I missed Steve. [00:27:34.337 – 00:27:35.617] Steve wasn't there. [00:27:35.617 – 00:27:37.017] There's a new Steve. [00:27:37.017 – 00:27:41.637] As you can tell, I'm also busy watching Blue's Clues on TV a lot. [00:27:41.637 – 00:27:47.541] I know exactly what Pooh's gonna say. [00:27:47.541 – 00:27:58.901] And one of the ways I effectively commu- communicate with my four-year-old granddaughter is I can say, "Oh,

[00:27:58.901 – 00:28:08.581] my." And she, in her tiny little four-year-old voice, says, "Oh, my." She loves it. [00:28:08.581 – 00:28:09.661] That's effective. [00:28:09.661 – 00:28:12.761] The interaction of people is effectiveness. [00:28:12.761 – 00:28:14.421] Okay. [00:28:14.421 – 00:28:22.341] I can't do that if I'm judging you, if I'm deciding what you should have, if I'm deciding where you should be and what you should be doing. [00:28:22.341 – 00:28:32.361] I just– I really– My hardest task is to keep that arena where we can play together, and you don't [00:28:32.361 – 00:28:33.360] have to worry about it. [00:28:33.360 – 00:28:34.341] Okay? [00:28:34.341 – 00:28:36.421] You can grow at your own pace.

[00:28:36.421 – 00:28:41.941] There are now over a hundred and eighty-five registered groups in Russia. [00:28:41.941 – 00:28:44.860] They took off from there. [00:28:44.860 – 00:28:48.861] The most effective thing we did was the scariest thing we did. [00:28:48.861 – 00:28:53.891] A fellow had written a book about Alcoholics Ano- Anonymous, a man named Schicker, Dr. [00:28:53.891 – 00:28:54.501] Schicker. [00:28:54.501 – 00:28:55.521] Good book. [00:28:55.521 – 00:28:57.681] Sold out fifty thousand copies overnight. [00:28:57.681 – 00:28:58.501] They were hungry. [00:28:58.501 – 00:29:00.561] Did, did you ever get to meet him? [00:29:00.561 – 00:29:02.021] Interesting guy. [00:29:02.021 – 00:29:13.041] Following that kind of success with the book, the Russians hold public meetings, did then, where

[00:29:13.041 – 00:29:23.201] the author and the appropriate government officials and everybody who's gonna have anything to say about it gets to hear from the public what the second [00:29:23.201 – 00:29:24.981] edition changes should be. [00:29:24.981 – 00:29:25.641] Mm. [00:29:25.641 – 00:29:27.371] That's what was going on there. [00:29:27.371 – 00:29:30.881] And we were invited to this public forum. [00:29:30.881 – 00:29:41.181] There were about four hundred people, police officers, uh, what we would call social workers, uh, regular people off the street, [00:29:41.181 – 00:29:45.221] anyone who's interested in this new activity that's beginning to emerge. [00:29:45.221 – 00:29:48.241] Very positive book, by the way, about AA.

[00:29:48.241 – 00:29:58.241] On the panel was a Russian tank commander that I had known from when they were here who was absolutely opposed to [00:29:58.241 – 00:29:58.311] AA. [00:29:58.311 – 00:30:08.721] He said, "It's just another imperialist ploy to get your way of thinking into our country." When we were in Leningrad, I understood [00:30:08.721 – 00:30:09.581] what he was saying. [00:30:09.581 – 00:30:18.541] We stayed in a hotel across from that great, huge six-block-long, uh, memorial to the Siege of Leningrad. [00:30:18.541 – 00:30:19.921] Millions of people died. [00:30:19.921 – 00:30:29.961] And what they're saying is, "Never again, ever, will any outside force come into our country and do this to us again."

[00:30:29.961 – 00:30:30.701] So I understood. [00:30:30.701 – 00:30:34.521] That's the battle we're gonna have to overcome to get AA there. [00:30:34.521 – 00:30:37.721] It's– And, and so we're fighting it. [00:30:37.721 – 00:30:39.301] And he's on this panel. [00:30:39.301 – 00:30:42.241] And, uh, he and I had fun, by the way. [00:30:42.241 – 00:30:46.481] At the end of our trip, we got down to actually talking to each other. [00:30:46.481 – 00:30:50.561] Turns out we could identify 'cause we had similar jobs in the past. [00:30:50.561 – 00:30:54.621] He used to smuggle guns into Leningrad on a tank. [00:30:54.621 – 00:30:58.061] And I used to smuggle stuff, too.

[00:30:58.061 – 00:31:03.641] While the goods were different, the job was the same. [00:31:03.641 – 00:31:06.121] And it gave us a contact. [00:31:06.121 – 00:31:10.660] And before we were through in New York, we're showing each other family pictures, of course. [00:31:10.660 – 00:31:20.701] He took a picture– or he saw a picture of my wife, and he says, "You should go home." He says, "Very dangerous to leave such a beautiful woman alone [00:31:20.701 – 00:31:24.361] for so long a time." And he showed me a picture of his wife. [00:31:24.361 – 00:31:25.081] And I was kind.

[00:31:25.081 – 00:31:34.861] Lovely lady, but, you know, in, in, in fur and everything, looked like a bear. [00:31:34.861 – 00:31:38.381] I know she had to be a lovely lady. [00:31:38.381 – 00:31:42.441] Anyway. [00:31:42.441 – 00:31:52.160] He said to me that his concern was that he didn't want his grandchildren killing mine. [00:31:52.160 – 00:31:59.781] And mine killing his. [00:31:59.781 – 00:32:05.301] We disagreed entirely on method. [00:32:05.301 – 00:32:13.421] He really believed with adequate therapy, in a year or two, alcoholics were cured and could go on back into life. [00:32:13.421 – 00:32:15.481] I just know better. [00:32:15.481 – 00:32:18.341] That didn't matter. [00:32:18.341 – 00:32:20.801] We were joined in brotherhood and harmonious action.

[00:32:20.801 – 00:32:25.301] He was willing to let us try something 'cause what they were doing wasn't working. [00:32:25.301 – 00:32:26.770] And while- [00:32:26.885 – 00:32:27.785] Didn't agree with it. [00:32:27.785 – 00:32:31.005] So there was that, that tone. [00:32:31.005 – 00:32:32.105] That's being effective. [00:32:32.105 – 00:32:36.985] When I can reconcile with you instead of trying to change you, I'm effective. [00:32:36.985 – 00:32:41.405] See, if I sponsor you, I expect you to drink. [00:32:41.405 – 00:32:43.024] That's what alcoholics do. [00:32:43.024 – 00:32:47.985] The only time I'm ever surprised by your behavior is when you become a decent person. [00:32:47.985 – 00:32:52.565] And quit drinking. [00:32:52.565 – 00:32:57.005] We were at this public forum.

[00:32:57.005 – 00:33:03.925] And the, the crew knows, and you know, I'm glib. [00:33:03.925 – 00:33:07.305] I've, I've had to live on my mouth since I was little. [00:33:07.305 – 00:33:16.505] So I think on my feet, and if I don't have an answer, I can say something cute that'll keep you laughing long enough for me to figure out what I was supposed to say. [00:33:16.505 – 00:33:19.465] So I'm the spokesman for the group. [00:33:19.465 – 00:33:24.205] Now, I've got a hostile audience of four hundred people. [00:33:24.205 – 00:33:28.645] Uh, and the trick question came at me.

[00:33:28.645 – 00:33:29.905] I've learned to listen for them. [00:33:29.905 – 00:33:38.985] A lady said, "How do you think Alcoholics Anonymous will work in the Soviet Union?" Now, there's a trick question. [00:33:38.985 – 00:33:41.805] Any answer I give is the wrong one. [00:33:41.805 – 00:33:46.765] So I did what I've been taught to do here. [00:33:46.765 – 00:33:53.965] I opened up, waited for it, and heard myself say, "I would be presumptuous to even have a guess. [00:33:53.965 – 00:33:57.155] I've only been here thirteen days." And they applauded. [00:33:57.155 – 00:33:58.885] We made contact. [00:33:58.885 – 00:34:00.985] The truth was, I have no idea.

[00:34:00.985 – 00:34:08.425] But it has worked in a hundred and forty-four other cultures, and it has worked for me. [00:34:08.425 – 00:34:10.645] Yeah. [00:34:10.645 – 00:34:15.865] So to be effective, it has to do with taking all those kinds of risks. [00:34:15.865 – 00:34:18.865] The only risk is not taking one. [00:34:18.865 – 00:34:20.415] Yeah. [00:34:20.415 – 00:34:23.285] You can't say anything wrong to a new person. [00:34:23.285 – 00:34:25.145] They're not listening to you anyway. [00:34:25.145 – 00:34:35.185] And if they catch– if they happen to be, and they catch [00:34:35.185 – 00:34:39.665] you on it later, you can remind them how sick they were.

[00:34:39.665 – 00:34:49.685] Real effectiveness, as I understand it, isn't me [00:34:49.685 – 00:34:50.645] staying sober. [00:34:50.645 – 00:34:53.505] That's God's business, and I participate in it. [00:34:53.505 – 00:34:57.585] Nor is it me getting you sober, because I don't get you sober. [00:34:57.585 – 00:35:03.605] Real effectiveness is when I watch you after we work together, go find you one. [00:35:03.605 – 00:35:05.365] That's when I've been effective. [00:35:05.365 – 00:35:15.485] That's the piece Bill gave us, that there were thousands who might cheerfully want what I've been so freely given, and they in turn might [00:35:15.485 – 00:35:16.265] help others. [00:35:16.265 – 00:35:21.105] That's when I know I've been effective, is when I meet second, third generation.

[00:35:21.105 – 00:35:27.565] No matter how goofy they are, it means that the job I did at least carried forward. [00:35:27.565 – 00:35:29.365] I'll straighten up the mess later. [00:35:29.365 – 00:35:36.185] Real effectiveness means that my wife knows where I am. [00:35:36.185 – 00:35:38.005] That's effective living. [00:35:38.005 – 00:35:41.965] She's not afraid for me or for her. [00:35:41.965 – 00:35:46.925] Uh, it means my grandchildren know where I am. [00:35:46.925 – 00:35:53.365] My four-year-old granddaughter, I, I know she doesn't know what a map is, but she thinks it's fascinating that I'm in Virginia. [00:35:53.365 – 00:35:56.625] She doesn't even know what that means, but I'm there.

[00:35:56.625 – 00:36:01.525] It's about communication. [00:36:01.525 – 00:36:03.805] I've gotta listen, and I've gotta talk. [00:36:03.805 – 00:36:05.485] Okay? [00:36:05.485 – 00:36:10.145] 'Cause the real work will happen after I am dead and gone. [00:36:10.145 – 00:36:18.245] If I'm truly effective, after I'm dead, somebody like me who shows up will get the same shot I got. [00:36:18.245 – 00:36:23.625] I won't have changed anything so that it becomes unrecognizable. [00:36:23.625 – 00:36:28.065] I love you as you are, where you are. [00:36:28.065 – 00:36:29.164] That's effective. [00:36:29.164 – 00:36:32.265] Chuck hated everybody, including me. [00:36:32.265 – 00:36:34.785] But I didn't care. [00:36:34.785 – 00:36:35.985] I loved him. [00:36:35.985 – 00:36:38.165] He was much more entertaining than most of you.

[00:36:38.165 – 00:36:48.764] And there's nothing like six weeks of solid hate to make you think, "This guy's really gonna be good." Uh. [00:36:48.764 – 00:36:55.505] One quick story on, on Chuck, 'cause it affects effectiveness. [00:36:55.505 – 00:36:57.365] Make it, make it long enough for me to go back to the old days. [00:36:57.365 – 00:36:58.205] Go back to the old days. [00:36:58.205 – 00:36:59.885] I, I can stretch this one out. [00:36:59.885 – 00:37:02.005] He's gonna tell the story slow. [00:37:02.005 – 00:37:12.105] After we had finally, after a year, gotten through the step work and Chuck began to emerge as Chuck-

[00:37:12.105 – 00:37:22.185] -and got rid of some stuff, circumstances were such that his real father had died and left him five thousand dollars right at the time when he needed to make some [00:37:22.185 – 00:37:23.185] financial amends. [00:37:23.185 – 00:37:27.525] Uh, we got that cleared out of the way, got him a little, little truck. [00:37:27.525 – 00:37:30.605] And he had some time on his hands. [00:37:30.605 – 00:37:32.445] He'd had a hundred and eighty some jobs. [00:37:32.445 – 00:37:33.785] He was not unemployable. [00:37:33.785 – 00:37:36.265] He just couldn't hold a job. [00:37:36.265 – 00:37:40.565] Well, when you tell the boss, "Go screw yourself," they don't keep you.

[00:37:40.565 – 00:37:42.845] And he did that a lot. [00:37:42.845 – 00:37:50.945] Anyway, he came to me one day, and he said, uh, "There's one thing I didn't tell you. [00:37:50.945 – 00:38:03.785] I've been afraid to tell you, 'cause every time I told anybody this, they made fun of me." He said, "All I really wanted to be was an actor." He's [00:38:03.785 – 00:38:04.605] gonna be a good one. [00:38:04.605 – 00:38:06.205] He kept me entertained for a year. [00:38:06.205 – 00:38:10.005] I mean, this is a drama queen. [00:38:10.005 – 00:38:13.355] And I got to thinking. [00:38:13.355 – 00:38:15.965] I said, "Chuck, listen, you don't have a job right now.

[00:38:15.965 – 00:38:17.725] Your amends are taken care of. [00:38:17.725 – 00:38:18.785] You got a decent car. [00:38:18.785 – 00:38:25.485] The other thing you've always wanted to do is go to Disneyland." He'd never done any kid stuff. [00:38:25.485 – 00:38:27.385] It's one of the reasons he was so pissed. [00:38:27.385 – 00:38:30.521] Said, "Look, you got a couple grand. [00:38:30.521 – 00:38:33.281] Why don't you go out to Disneyland? [00:38:33.281 – 00:38:34.961] Take two weeks and drive out there. [00:38:34.961 – 00:38:43.921] And I know some actors, and we'll hook you up with somebody, and they can tell you what the price you are gonna have to pay is to become an actor.

[00:38:43.921 – 00:38:50.441] There's a price for everything." So I hooked him up with one of the guys we know on The Murphy Brown Show while he was out there. [00:38:50.441 – 00:38:54.361] He was taking him around Warner's, just showing him the lot. [00:38:54.361 – 00:39:02.681] And, uh, the producer of the show, they ran into him on the lot, and introductions went on. [00:39:02.681 – 00:39:07.541] My friend said, "And Chuck wants to be an actor." Producer says, "Hell, we can use him right now. [00:39:07.541 – 00:39:13.121] We need extras." So two weeks after he hits Los Angeles, he's on The Murphy Brown Show.

[00:39:13.121 – 00:39:19.001] Called me up and says, "What's going on? [00:39:19.001 – 00:39:29.041] What's this all about?" He needed to expand into his own arena, and all my job is, [00:39:29.041 – 00:39:39.141] is to provide him with the necessary tools, whether it be step work, a book, people, an environment, the tools so he can explore [00:39:39.141 – 00:39:40.821] that environment. [00:39:40.821 – 00:39:43.621] Now, he hated God. [00:39:43.621 – 00:39:46.461] Got him into acting school. [00:39:46.461 – 00:39:47.701] They think he's great. [00:39:47.701 – 00:39:48.741] He really is good. [00:39:48.741 – 00:39:53.741] His first stage play in Los Angeles, guess what part he got?

[00:39:53.741 – 00:39:56.681] He was an evangelistic preacher. [00:39:56.681 – 00:40:04.541] And they tell me he kicked ass and took names. [00:40:04.541 – 00:40:08.581] I can't joke. [00:40:08.581 – 00:40:10.391] So how do you measure your effectiveness? [00:40:10.391 – 00:40:11.661] Tom wanted some interaction. [00:40:11.661 – 00:40:12.841] Let's talk about that. [00:40:12.841 – 00:40:15.281] How do you know when you've been effective? [00:40:15.281 – 00:40:17.601] What, what's your, your guide? [00:40:17.601 – 00:40:17.921] Yeah. [00:40:17.921 – 00:40:19.151] Thanks for listening. [00:40:19.151 – 00:40:20.601] I was an alcoholic. [00:40:20.601 – 00:40:23.461] My question is, I have a question. [00:40:23.461 – 00:40:24.321] Somebody. [00:40:24.321 – 00:40:34.741] Um, and maybe it's because I'm new to the program, but everyone else is so articulate, [00:40:34.741 – 00:40:39.581] and everybody I think can think out in black and white what they think, what they feel.

[00:40:39.581 – 00:40:44.561] It's so difficult for me to, to verbalize. [00:40:44.561 – 00:40:47.281] Did you all have to overcome that? [00:40:47.281 – 00:40:47.521] Okay. [00:40:47.521 – 00:40:52.461] Was there trouble verbalizing how you feel and instead of being articulate about how you think? [00:40:52.461 – 00:40:58.701] Yes, because at the beginning, all the feelings felt the same, panic. [00:40:58.701 – 00:41:04.301] I don't know whether I feel good or bad. [00:41:04.301 – 00:41:06.121] I do know I feel panic. [00:41:06.121 – 00:41:11.301] And how do you discuss, I'm in– I feel panic? [00:41:11.301 – 00:41:17.061] Well, you come to me and you say, "I feel panic." Mm-hmm.

[00:41:17.061 – 00:41:23.701] "I'm terrified." And I can share with you, "Yeah, some mornings I feel the same way. [00:41:23.701 – 00:41:26.141] Here's what I do about it," and we, we discuss it. [00:41:26.141 – 00:41:29.161] You can't describe your feelings, nor is it even important. [00:41:29.161 – 00:41:35.790] What you do is describe, "I'm feeling something." What a surprise- Mm-hmm … [00:41:35.790 – 00:41:38.581] okay, to be able to finally sort out. [00:41:38.581 – 00:41:43.541] We, we reach a place where we can't tell the difference between the true and the false. [00:41:43.541 – 00:41:45.331] Mm-hmm. [00:41:45.331 – 00:41:45.581] Yeah. [00:41:45.581 – 00:41:46.481] Panic. [00:41:46.481 – 00:41:51.001] I'm starting to feel something, and I don't know what to do with it.

[00:41:51.001 – 00:41:53.481] What do I do with my feelings? [00:41:53.481 – 00:41:54.301] Feel them. [00:41:54.301 – 00:41:58.821] You don't have to do anything. [00:41:58.821 – 00:42:00.121] Okay. [00:42:00.121 – 00:42:01.921] Process them? [00:42:01.921 – 00:42:03.161] Please don't process them. [00:42:03.161 – 00:42:06.801] Just, just feel them. [00:42:06.801 – 00:42:09.021] And if you gotta cry, go cry. [00:42:09.021 – 00:42:11.281] If you wanna scream, go somewhere else. [00:42:11.281 – 00:42:13.221] But scream. [00:42:13.221 – 00:42:15.201] Uh, does that help any, Tom? [00:42:15.201 – 00:42:16.261] Would you add to that? [00:42:16.261 – 00:42:25.411] The o- the only thing that, uh, that I know I, I had the feeling when I came in that I, that I was the dumbest guy in every room I sat in- …

[00:42:25.411 – 00:42:32.301] because I'd hear people who sounded so brilliant and healed that, that, I, I mean, I felt light years away from where they were. [00:42:32.301 – 00:42:41.561] And, uh, the guy who spoke at my fifth meeting of AA was the first person I had ever heard put words to how I felt. [00:42:41.561 – 00:42:42.231] Yeah. [00:42:42.231 – 00:42:51.681] And, uh, I really, really valued that because it sort of helped me start framing a language that I could talk about the thing with. [00:42:51.681 – 00:42:54.861] Because before that, all I felt was awful- Yeah …

[00:42:54.861 – 00:43:01.501] and guilty and, and, and, uh, deeply ashamed and all that, but I didn't know how to describe those things. [00:43:01.501 – 00:43:08.601] So it, it was helpful to me that I started hearing people put some language to it that started to make sense. [00:43:08.601 – 00:43:15.691] You know, I always sat in me– You're braver than me, 'cause I always sat in meetings burning with a desire to ask [00:43:15.947 – 00:43:19.387] Questions, but I felt like it sounded so stupid. [00:43:19.387 – 00:43:26.067] And then I finally learned that what I, what I wanted to ask, probably the person in the next chair wanted to ask the same thing.

[00:43:26.067 – 00:43:35.947] And so, uh, yeah, but I, I very much identify with, uh, with that, that whole business of, of total ignorance about the condition. [00:43:35.947 – 00:43:46.107] Uh, some people have been s-through so much treatment that they sound like a medical dictionary when they come in, and got a lot of language, but it may not have [00:43:46.107 – 00:43:47.547] much to do with the condition. [00:43:47.547 – 00:43:51.867] You know, it's just a whole bunch of language that clutters up life, you know. [00:43:51.867 – 00:43:55.767] And getting to a point where I can realistically understand what it is I'm dealing with.

[00:43:55.767 – 00:44:02.867] It's where inventory starts really putting stuff together, uh, making it have some real purpose, some real value to my life. [00:44:02.867 – 00:44:05.787] But I think it is important to me. [00:44:05.787 – 00:44:14.147] I went to my first sponsor early on and said, "Bruce, I feel so guilty." He said, "You should." "Look at what you've done." Yeah. [00:44:14.147 – 00:44:17.816] "Now, here's what we can do to straighten that out." Mm-hmm. [00:44:17.816 – 00:44:20.766] But you should. [00:44:20.766 – 00:44:21.206] Yeah. [00:44:21.206 – 00:44:22.717] "I'm so ashamed." Yeah. [00:44:22.717 – 00:44:25.257] "You should be." Yeah. [00:44:25.257 – 00:44:30.967] Do you just let the chucks of the world spew their hate for six weeks, ten years?

[00:44:30.967 – 00:44:32.507] Not ten years, but, you know. [00:44:32.507 – 00:44:33.767] Say it again. [00:44:33.767 – 00:44:39.367] Do you just- Do you just let the chucks of the world spew their hate for six or eight weeks, or whatever it takes? [00:44:39.367 – 00:44:39.547] Oh. [00:44:39.547 – 00:44:39.967] Okay. [00:44:39.967 – 00:44:41.047] I do, yes. [00:44:41.047 – 00:44:45.987] While they're with me in conf– in a separate space. [00:44:45.987 – 00:44:51.827] I immediately begin to tell them, "You don't want to do this with all these nice people." Okay. [00:44:51.827 – 00:44:53.767] "If that's how you feel, be quiet. [00:44:53.767 – 00:44:54.867] We'll talk about it later. [00:44:54.867 – 00:45:03.027] Don't disrupt these nice people." If they don't get to do that, pretty soon they get tired of it, too.

[00:45:03.027 – 00:45:06.567] But yes, I do, 'cause I know about that kind of hate. [00:45:06.567 – 00:45:13.067] And, uh, if everybody keeps this out, it just intensifies it. [00:45:13.067 – 00:45:15.847] Pretty soon we can start laughing at it. [00:45:15.847 – 00:45:24.567] Say things like, "Do you, did you hear what you just said?" Yeah. [00:45:24.567 – 00:45:26.977] Al, you. [00:45:26.977 – 00:45:35.767] How do you help a new person kind of on the other end, uh, get past, uh, over-intellectualizing or analyzing everything? [00:45:35.767 – 00:45:43.447] How do you help a new person get over intellectualizing and analyzing everything?

[00:45:43.447 – 00:45:46.247] Lobotomy is not a bad thing. [00:45:46.247 – 00:45:54.887] Which means, Al, I've never figured that one out. [00:45:54.887 – 00:45:57.667] Duct tape helps. [00:45:57.667 – 00:46:06.247] I tell you- Focus …it is an awfully good defense. [00:46:06.247 – 00:46:06.627] Yeah. [00:46:06.627 – 00:46:13.306] You know, that people can talk you to death, and, uh, it's a very good defense to keep from listening to anything. [00:46:13.306 – 00:46:18.727] Uh, like I, I have a fairly standard rule of thumb. [00:46:18.727 – 00:46:23.667] Now, you know, there are not any standards for the thing, but a fairly standard rule of thumb.

[00:46:23.667 – 00:46:33.807] When I'm sponsoring somebody, I d- I don't like to get– let anybody get up in front of a group and talk till they got about nine months, you know, [00:46:33.807 – 00:46:34.647] making a talk. [00:46:34.647 – 00:46:41.767] If they, if they are people who can communicate readily, it's a year. [00:46:41.767 – 00:46:47.317] And, and the reasoning is obvious. [00:46:47.317 – 00:46:47.887] It's just that. [00:46:47.887 – 00:46:56.127] You know, people who are t– who are, who are handy with communication, uh, are not, uh, they would– often are not handy with listening.

[00:46:56.127 – 00:47:01.067] And, and it's a great way to keep from getting involved with just a, a verbal barrage. [00:47:01.067 – 00:47:02.987] Uh, same with comedy. [00:47:02.987 – 00:47:06.167] You know, the, the comedy very often has very little to do with humor. [00:47:06.167 – 00:47:07.177] It's, uh… [00:47:07.177 – 00:47:07.767] Anyway. [00:47:07.767 – 00:47:12.767] That– I know that's the way, in a general kind of way, I, I deal with folk like that. [00:47:12.767 – 00:47:21.167] It is tough w-with people who are, are highly knowledgeable about conditions but don't have them connected to their life. [00:47:21.167 – 00:47:33.447] And, uh, tell you, my, my least favorite person to work with is the guy who is religiously intact, but

[00:47:33.447 – 00:47:35.787] his life is screwed up like Hogan's Goat. [00:47:35.787 – 00:47:45.977] And, uh, trying to get through that cloud of righteousness- -to a real life connection with spirit is a big, big battle. [00:47:45.977 – 00:47:55.987] And, uh, any day I'll take somebody that, that, that is absolutely on fire with hate for, for the, the whole business over somebody who [00:47:55.987 – 00:47:58.027] sees themselves religiously intact. [00:47:58.027 – 00:48:08.027] And, and it's just– I know that sounds like kind of scary ground to get into, but, but folk who have talked in, into this kind of delusional

[00:48:08.027 – 00:48:10.907] notion that you're okay there, but your life's falling apart. [00:48:10.907 – 00:48:16.867] The real deal is how do you get a real power connected to a real life killer illness? [00:48:16.867 – 00:48:20.547] And, uh, so it's a challenge, a huge, huge challenge. [00:48:20.547 – 00:48:29.967] Technique-wise, Al, because of the way I do it, meaning you come to my house, we sit down, I read the book out loud, and we, we go from there. [00:48:29.967 – 00:48:39.967] It helps with the focus, 'cause I'll let you intellectualize for a couple of meetings, then I have to remind you, you came here to

[00:48:39.967 – 00:48:41.287] learn something, and so did I. [00:48:41.287 – 00:48:44.107] How are you gonna learn anything if you talk fifty minutes out of the hour? [00:48:44.107 – 00:48:44.157] Mm-hmm. [00:48:44.157 – 00:48:45.527] Mm-hmm. [00:48:45.527 – 00:48:48.427] And so we have a way to get back into it. [00:48:48.427 – 00:48:55.167] And even if the information doesn't click, the new way of doing things does, and eventually the information clicks. [00:48:55.167 – 00:48:57.207] But it, it becomes a tool. [00:48:57.207 – 00:49:00.326] Uh, I'm like Tom. [00:49:00.326 – 00:49:01.867] It was a year before I was allowed to talk. [00:49:01.867 – 00:49:03.357] Mm-hmm. [00:49:03.357 – 00:49:05.067] Except in the twelve-step study school.

[00:49:05.067 – 00:49:07.847] Couldn't chair a meeting, couldn't get up there to podium. [00:49:07.847 – 00:49:09.247] Uh. [00:49:09.247 – 00:49:12.447] Does that help? [00:49:12.447 – 00:49:15.797] No real answer, but there's some things. [00:49:15.797 – 00:49:18.911] I– it's really a tough issue. [00:49:18.911 – 00:49:20.451] It, it, it, it really is. [00:49:20.451 – 00:49:30.471] That, uh, that we– sometime we, we really get injurious in talk– you know, like saying things like, "Nobody is too dumb to [00:49:30.471 – 00:49:38.391] get sober, but some are too smart." That-that's kind of an injurious kind of way to, to, to treat folk who happen to be handicapped with a lot of education.

[00:49:38.391 – 00:49:40.990] You know, it's just … [00:49:40.990 – 00:49:43.391] Yeah, 'cause it's kinda insulting that way. [00:49:43.391 – 00:49:44.731] You know, folks can't help that. [00:49:44.731 – 00:49:45.591] That's what they got. [00:49:45.591 – 00:49:46.061] Interesting. [00:49:46.061 – 00:49:56.031] You know, and so in, in dealing with it, very important to not write them off as being, you know, some kind of a, a wandering idiot just because they happen to be smart. [00:49:56.031 – 00:50:04.031] And, and, and I think that thing of letting the book handle it, you know, letting the process handle it is, uh, is, is, is really the bottom line deal.

[00:50:04.031 – 00:50:10.751] On, on– deal with the concept that's laid out here and not what you brought to the table, you know. [00:50:10.751 – 00:50:12.411] And, and it'll do it, you know. [00:50:12.411 – 00:50:14.111] The program will take us through it. [00:50:14.111 – 00:50:17.551] I don't care what the barriers are if we'll open up and let it happen, you know. [00:50:17.551 – 00:50:24.771] Uh, but that is, you hit a, you hit a real sensitive area, uh, deep, deep, uh, as you usually do. [00:50:24.771 – 00:50:31.831] My, my sponsor hit, hit me with that, Al, at the very beginning.

[00:50:31.831 – 00:50:34.431] He says, "We've been talking," 'cause there were three of them. [00:50:34.431 – 00:50:37.771] "We don't even think the truth's gonna work for you." Mm-hmm. [00:50:37.771 – 00:50:47.771] " 'Cause you take the truth in and your ego catches it, and by the time you use it, it's all warped." So he said, "What we suggest for you is that we suggest you forget [00:50:47.771 – 00:50:52.031] everything you think you know about anything, particularly spiritual matters. [00:50:52.031 – 00:50:55.731] If any of it worked, you wouldn't be here." And I fought a little bit.

[00:50:55.731 – 00:51:05.911] I says, "Come on, I must have learned some truth somewhere along the way." He says, "It's doubtful, but it is possible." He said, "I'll grant that it's possible, but anything that really is [00:51:05.911 – 00:51:14.161] truth will be truth when we're all through too, and the rest of it's all garbage just laid down." And, and that really helped. [00:51:14.161 – 00:51:19.591] It focused right back on, um, if I'm wanting to argue with you about it, it's my opinion. [00:51:19.591 – 00:51:21.811] The truth never has to be defended.

[00:51:21.811 – 00:51:22.381] It just is. [00:51:22.381 – 00:51:24.671] I still like to argue. [00:51:24.671 – 00:51:30.291] There's nothing like a good game of Zorro- -with an intellectual idiot. [00:51:30.291 – 00:51:34.351] I heard what you said, Tim. [00:51:34.351 – 00:51:38.651] I really like this meeting people at the level of your understanding- Yeah …and talking to them. [00:51:38.651 – 00:51:44.051] I'm thinking I can put up with the one that's in turmoil, kinda angry, fearful, whatever. [00:51:44.051 – 00:51:44.521] Mm-hmm. [00:51:44.521 – 00:51:46.861] I understand it's, uh, you know… [00:51:46.861 – 00:51:49.671] I have a difficult time dealing with know-it-alls. [00:51:49.671 – 00:51:50.531] Yeah. [00:51:50.531 – 00:51:55.311] I mean, they know everything about everything, whether it's a big book or whatever.

[00:51:55.311 – 00:51:57.631] I'm, I just turned fifteen years sober. [00:51:57.631 – 00:52:01.171] I feel like I'm brand new, asking a hundred questions, wide open. [00:52:01.171 – 00:52:04.921] You get somebody else, they know everything about everything. [00:52:04.921 – 00:52:06.871] How do you– That's another question. [00:52:06.871 – 00:52:14.631] Two years ago, an, an old-timer in Denver, thirty-three years sober at that time, came to me to go through the steps 'cause he'd never done it. [00:52:14.631 – 00:52:18.231] And nobody else would talk to him. [00:52:18.231 – 00:52:22.831] Thirty-three years of not doing anything about untreated alcoholism makes you a pain in the ass.

[00:52:22.831 – 00:52:32.991] We went through weeks where most of the sessions we were in was me helping to unlearn him so [00:52:32.991 – 00:52:34.391] we could get down to this. [00:52:34.391 – 00:52:41.431] Got to the third step, had a wonderful third step experience together just prior to Christmas two years ago. [00:52:41.431 – 00:52:45.971] Sent him home to make a list, and I haven't seen him since. [00:52:45.971 – 00:52:56.111] Called me once and said, "I got busy and haven't got the list done." And I said, "One name counts as a list,

[00:52:56.111 – 00:52:58.551] you know." I haven't seen him since. [00:52:58.551 – 00:53:02.191] Sometimes you just give it your shot. [00:53:02.191 – 00:53:03.551] I'm still here. [00:53:03.551 – 00:53:10.331] Let me tell you a, a quick one I just had that, uh, I, I'll tell you about the good ones. [00:53:10.331 – 00:53:12.051] I won't, I won't tell you about all the bad ones. [00:53:12.051 – 00:53:22.591] I was, I was in California a week or so ago, and, and, uh, there was a fellow who came up to me that he, he introduced himself [00:53:22.591 – 00:53:26.391] like he was showing his merit badges by how many chips he'd picked up.

[00:53:26.391 – 00:53:26.851] You know, with… [00:53:26.851 – 00:53:36.851] That, that he was– He, he said, "I'm a professional newcomer." And, uh, so I just decided to just sort of take him on just a little [00:53:36.851 – 00:53:43.371] bit, and I, I, I said– And he, he was trying to get me to respond to that and add to his merit badges or something. [00:53:43.371 – 00:53:47.391] And I said, "Well, let me, let me just suggest one thing to you. [00:53:47.391 – 00:53:57.391] Why don't you quit being a professional newcomer and become a real newcomer?" And, uh, and it took a while, but this

[00:53:57.391 – 00:54:00.451] guy had a cliché for everything. [00:54:00.451 – 00:54:04.551] You know, he'd been a– He'd been around the program so much that his… [00:54:04.729 – 00:54:10.529] His mind was just filled with meaningless platitudes and cliches for every situation. [00:54:10.529 – 00:54:15.709] Is what I did with him was, was head off every one. [00:54:15.709 – 00:54:17.629] You know, every time he'd come, I said, "No, no. [00:54:17.629 – 00:54:19.589] Don't, don't put that on me." Yeah. [00:54:19.589 – 00:54:29.729] And it took, I t- it took a long time to get through that riddle of stuff that was in his mind and get down to a real contact with who he was

[00:54:29.729 – 00:54:34.189] and what he was about, uh, because his mind was filled with all that stuff. [00:54:34.189 – 00:54:40.789] And, uh, now I know he didn't like the conversation, but he engaged in the conversation. [00:54:40.789 – 00:54:49.949] If he had not, I'd quit, but he engaged in the conversation, and he came to a point where I knew that he had heard it and connected with it. [00:54:49.949 – 00:54:53.409] The next morning, the guy came to… [00:54:53.409 – 00:55:00.389] Not that day but the next morning, the guy came to me and said, "Man, you'll never know how much I appreciate that." Yeah.

[00:55:00.389 – 00:55:10.489] Because it, it's just what it took was to get past that litany of stuff to where he was a real human being connecting with a real program [00:55:10.489 – 00:55:11.249] of recovery. [00:55:11.249 – 00:55:18.669] And, and see, he was so caught up in that kind of m- mess of stuff that he couldn't even hear what was going on around him. [00:55:18.669 – 00:55:20.759] Now, he, he may be like that guy. [00:55:20.759 – 00:55:22.009] Who knows what'll happen? [00:55:22.009 – 00:55:28.789] But he left that day, and he went out and did some stuff, and he came back the, the next morning really pleased with what he was doing.

[00:55:28.789 – 00:55:36.659] And I, I think that's part of our effectiveness is, is ju- is, is how do you cut through that stuff and get down to real issues? [00:55:36.659 – 00:55:37.769] And it does. [00:55:37.769 – 00:55:42.659] It takes some, some, some hard-nosed confrontation sometimes, but whatever it takes, you know? [00:55:42.659 – 00:55:44.389] It's real deal. [00:55:44.389 – 00:55:52.229] Let me mention just a couple real anecdotes he reminded me of that, uh, maybe set the stage for what we'll come back to that… [00:55:52.229 – 00:56:01.289] And plus, I, I just wanted to share this thing about effectiveness really does have to do with, with where you are and how you engage it.

[00:56:01.289 – 00:56:02.249] I, I had some… [00:56:02.249 – 00:56:12.289] I never did go to Russia, but I had some Russians over here one time, and I, I was visiting someplace, and they had a contingent of Russian folks that were sh- going around the country trying to learn [00:56:12.289 – 00:56:13.469] stuff, I guess. [00:56:13.469 – 00:56:16.729] And they said, "Would you go over and, and meet them?" And I said, "Yeah, sure. [00:56:16.729 – 00:56:23.509] I'd love to meet them." And so I went over there, and they introduced me, uh, to the Russians and gave me a lot of names I couldn't pronounce.

[00:56:23.509 – 00:56:32.489] And, uh, then they said, "Would you just speak to them a little bit?" And I said, "Why, sure." So I proceeded to lay a real heavy sermon on them for about five minutes. [00:56:32.489 – 00:56:39.549] And, uh, and, and, and so, you know, in a conversation, you kind of pause and look for a response. [00:56:39.549 – 00:56:44.949] And so I got to the appropriate point, and I paused, and there was two, two women in the front row. [00:56:44.949 – 00:56:55.649] One of them pointed at the other one and said, "Psychologist." I said, "Well, okay." They didn't speak English, you know?

[00:56:55.649 – 00:56:58.209] They had stood and nodded and grinning the whole time. [00:56:58.209 – 00:57:00.789] I just assumed that everybody in the world spoke English. [00:57:00.789 – 00:57:03.169] But they didn't know that, you know? [00:57:03.169 – 00:57:05.569] So, so that was probably not effective. [00:57:05.569 – 00:57:08.789] They knew I was a very charming, friendly fella. [00:57:08.789 – 00:57:11.969] But not a clue about… [00:57:11.969 – 00:57:22.329] And, and the other thing I say about this, this business about, uh, about, uh, the accepting people where they are, you know, and, and having meaningful kind of relationship, [00:57:22.329 – 00:57:26.189] like your, your Russian buddy you were talking about with exchange about family.

[00:57:26.189 – 00:57:31.209] There was a guy who, who, who's a researcher fellow. [00:57:31.209 – 00:57:34.989] Not a, not an alcoholic, but he's a world-class eminent researcher. [00:57:34.989 – 00:57:42.309] And some people kind of engineered us to get together because they knew we were polar opposites on some beliefs about stuff. [00:57:42.309 – 00:57:48.829] And, and we had a wonderful time in, in a good debate, a, a really good debate. [00:57:48.829 – 00:57:54.449] And this guy really and truly, his name's Wexler, and he's an eminent researcher. [00:57:54.449 – 00:58:02.389] And he, he'd done some studies about alcoholism, and, and he was just profoundly, uh, unimpressed with AA.

[00:58:02.389 – 00:58:06.869] And so he, he, he said, "I will never understand. [00:58:06.869 – 00:58:11.469] There's, I go into those meetings, and I listen to them, and none of it makes sense. [00:58:11.469 – 00:58:20.789] It's disorder and chaos and, and, and junk." And, and so we were participating in a program, and he was lecturing about substance abuse. [00:58:20.789 – 00:58:25.769] Jesus, I, I mean, just the thought of that term just makes me wanna gag. [00:58:25.769 – 00:58:33.709] I- And, and so I listened to him patiently, and, and, uh, about midweek, we were gonna be there a week.

[00:58:33.709 – 00:58:39.808] About midweek, I said, "Man, I had enough of this stuff." And they had po- they had planned a big dinner. [00:58:39.808 – 00:58:45.629] And I found a few other drunks, and I said, "Let's go to a meeting, man. [00:58:45.629 – 00:58:47.969] I gotta get out of here." And so we went. [00:58:47.969 – 00:58:53.529] Next morning, I ran into the fella, and he said, "Where were you last night? [00:58:53.529 – 00:59:03.289] I was counting on continuing our discussion over dinner." And I said, "Well, let me tell you where I was." I said, "I got a few other drunks, and we loaded up in the car.

[00:59:03.289 – 00:59:04.949] We rode over to this next city. [00:59:04.949 – 00:59:15.169] We went to the worst part of town, drove up to an old frame house that had probably been condemned in urban renewal, had a sofa sitting on the front porch, springs [00:59:15.169 – 00:59:20.189] hanging out of it." "Walked in, got a cup of coffee, and the stuff was old. [00:59:20.189 – 00:59:20.909] It was green. [00:59:20.909 – 00:59:26.769] And I walked into a room, and a bunch of people in there fat mouthing and talking and cussing. [00:59:26.769 – 00:59:30.149] And we sat down around a table, and the room was blue with smoke.

[00:59:30.149 – 00:59:40.199] And I sat in the middle of that, and I said, 'Man, I am in the solution.'" He said, "I'll [00:59:40.199 – 00:59:48.829] never understand you people." I said, "That's fine." But we respected each other. [00:59:48.829 – 00:59:51.289] You know, it was a, a, a healthy respect. [00:59:51.289 – 00:59:53.329] I respect what he was doing. [00:59:53.329 – 01:00:02.049] He didn't have to agree with me, but we were both people who were committed to our endeavors, and we had respect for each other. [01:00:02.049 – 01:00:06.989] And, and I think some of that is, is, is about this whole business of how am I gonna be effective?

[01:00:06.989 – 01:00:13.449] And if I've got to write everybody off who doesn't agree with me, I'm not gonna be very effective, you know? [01:00:13.449 – 01:00:19.637] Um, very briefly, because I, I've got one incident, Al, that's a direct answer to your question. [01:00:19.637 – 01:00:24.017] Briefly, don't discount the intuitive. [01:00:24.017 – 01:00:26.307] Start to rely on it. [01:00:26.307 – 01:00:27.187] Certainly. [01:00:27.187 – 01:00:29.037] And clear away the stuff you can do that. [01:00:29.037 – 01:00:33.617] A year and a half ago, equipment job, got me a new guy the next morning. [01:00:33.617 – 01:00:36.277] Three weeks sober, treatment center counselor.

[01:00:36.277 – 01:00:37.617] Knew way too much. [01:00:37.617 – 01:00:39.537] Just kept drinking. [01:00:39.537 – 01:00:48.017] And he was telling me all the stuff he knew in those first early sessions, and I said to him, "You're right. [01:00:48.017 – 01:00:57.476] You probably know more about alcoholism than I even wanna know, but everything you know still allowed you to drink three weeks ago." And he got it. [01:00:57.476 – 01:00:59.317] That was a fact. [01:00:59.317 – 01:01:02.677] I didn't wanna say, "Your stuff is crap," 'cause it isn't. [01:01:02.677 – 01:01:07.057] But everything he knew still let him drink, and that worked.

[01:01:07.057 – 01:01:08.837] That was intuitive. [01:01:08.837 – 01:01:10.617] I'm not smart enough to think of that. [01:01:10.617 – 01:01:16.037] And I don't use that as a rule now to tell everybody, but that one did work. [01:01:16.037 – 01:01:17.277] Yeah. [01:01:17.277 – 01:01:22.017] When we come back, each– I think what we're gonna do is nudge a little bit. [01:01:22.017 – 01:01:32.217] I, I, I am, and I know Donald would like to go there, is to nudge a little bit into the sponsorship function itself, you know, and, and, and talk about that a little bit in re-in relation

[01:01:32.217 – 01:01:42.237] to effectiveness and, uh, and this business about, uh, about how the example needs to incorporate how we live, and that's the next section in this thing that we'll get into. [01:01:42.237 – 01:01:44.357] So, uh, have a good lunch. [01:01:44.357 – 01:01:44.697] Sure. [01:01:44.697 – 01:01:45.857] What time do we come back? [01:01:45.857 – 01:01:46.637] One thirty. [01:01:46.637 – 01:01:48.037] You call it. [01:01:48.037 – 01:01:55.197] Uh, we just had a group conscience consisting of two incredible alcoholic minds. [01:01:55.197 – 01:01:57.097] We're gonna have a three-hour meditation. [01:01:57.097 – 01:01:57.697] Yeah. [01:01:57.697 – 01:02:00.057] And no, no telling what'll come out of that. [01:02:00.057 – 01:02:07.597] We want to take just a minute before we get rolling and, uh, pose a little, little question to you.

[01:02:07.597 – 01:02:10.677] You know, everybody is here for a reason. [01:02:10.677 – 01:02:19.237] You know, everybody came here either to get in out of the sun or whatever, but, but, but folks have got a reason for being here and something they're looking for. [01:02:19.237 – 01:02:29.237] We've gone through some stuff this morning that, uh, that I really enjoyed visiting, but part of our purpose is to, to, [01:02:29.237 – 01:02:34.617] to try to help everybody here get what they're looking for the best we can. [01:02:34.617 – 01:02:38.497] And so we're at a point, you've sort of seen it, we make it up as we go.

[01:02:38.497 – 01:02:42.777] And, and so absolutely no way to get this train off track. [01:02:42.777 – 01:02:44.737] Uh, it just stays there, you know? [01:02:44.737 – 01:02:48.577] And it- And it winds up getting on track in the, in the process. [01:02:48.577 – 01:02:58.637] Uh, j-j– Real quick, give us some, uh, some feedback, if you would, in terms of, of what you'd like to s-to see visited before [01:02:58.637 – 01:03:00.957] we get out of here at quitting time today. [01:03:00.957 – 01:03:04.797] And we'll see, uh, we'll see how well we can respond to that.

[01:03:04.797 – 01:03:06.297] Anybody? [01:03:06.297 – 01:03:07.397] You started- Yeah … [01:03:07.397 – 01:03:09.527] to talk about how effective it is. [01:03:09.527 – 01:03:12.627] How do you know whether you're being effective or not? [01:03:12.627 – 01:03:13.217] Mm-hmm. [01:03:13.217 – 01:03:14.187] I'd like to hear more about that. [01:03:14.187 – 01:03:16.297] Yes, a little more depth on effec-effectiveness. [01:03:16.297 – 01:03:16.617] Okay. [01:03:16.617 – 01:03:18.497] I can tell you in one brief sentence. [01:03:18.497 – 01:03:25.367] When we broke here, and you were all standing out in the parking lot talking to each other, we have been incredibly effective today. [01:03:25.367 – 01:03:26.417] Yeah. [01:03:26.417 – 01:03:27.317] That's the marker. [01:03:27.317 – 01:03:29.077] Or we ought to have made you hungry.

[01:03:29.077 – 01:03:32.837] At, at meetings. [01:03:32.837 – 01:03:33.137] Yeah. [01:03:33.137 – 01:03:35.367] A good meeting, people hang out. [01:03:35.367 – 01:03:37.997] They came early, they stay late, and they go do other things. [01:03:37.997 – 01:03:39.157] That's what it's really about. [01:03:39.157 – 01:03:42.877] If everybody breaks and goes home, there's something missing out of that. [01:03:42.877 – 01:03:43.817] There's no spirit. [01:03:43.817 – 01:03:47.857] Alan mentioned a couple of things that I'll just throw out if, uh, if I may. [01:03:47.857 – 01:03:50.197] Is in the general area of sponsorship. [01:03:50.197 – 01:03:50.227] Oh. [01:03:50.227 – 01:03:52.497] And I kind of alluded to that before we broke. [01:03:52.497 – 01:04:03.037] A, a couple of real issues that are, that are, that are, that are weighty for us and, and that have to do with effective relationship is when do you discontinue a relationship and sponsorship

[01:04:03.037 – 01:04:05.077] if you just believe it's run its course. [01:04:05.077 – 01:04:06.737] And how do you deal with that? [01:04:06.737 – 01:04:11.337] Uh, some people use a crude word like firing, but it's not necessarily that. [01:04:11.337 – 01:04:12.517] It's just recognizing. [01:04:12.517 – 01:04:22.617] The other thing is how you deal with people who are under medication, and it poses some real challenges in terms of, of, uh, of discerning when you can do effective [01:04:22.617 – 01:04:24.377] work, how to responsibly deal with it. [01:04:24.377 – 01:04:26.687] Is that covered, uh, adequately, Alan? [01:04:26.687 – 01:04:28.397] Okay. [01:04:28.397 – 01:04:29.167] All right. [01:04:29.167 – 01:04:30.997] Those are good points too, but yeah.

[01:04:30.997 – 01:04:34.137] I, I just would like to hear your experience with the steps. [01:04:34.137 – 01:04:35.417] The steps. [01:04:35.417 – 01:04:39.437] You know, maybe the fourth step or, you know, eighth step. [01:04:39.437 – 01:04:40.147] Mm-hmm. [01:04:40.147 – 01:04:40.356] Yeah. [01:04:40.356 – 01:04:41.417] That kind of stuff. [01:04:41.417 – 01:04:42.937] When all else fails, go to the steps. [01:04:42.937 – 01:04:44.167] Yeah. [01:04:44.167 – 01:04:44.377] Yeah. [01:04:44.377 – 01:04:44.897] Okay. [01:04:44.897 – 01:04:45.457] Good job. [01:04:45.457 – 01:04:47.167] Uh, any, anybody else? [01:04:47.167 – 01:04:47.817] Pardon? [01:04:47.817 – 01:04:51.837] Feeling really resistant people, but they keep showing up. [01:04:51.837 – 01:04:53.457] How do you guide them? [01:04:56.317 – 01:04:57.137] Hard cases, eh? [01:04:57.137 – 01:04:59.897] But persistent cases, eh? [01:04:59.897 – 01:05:00.997] Okay. [01:05:00.997 – 01:05:03.757] Yeah, how you deal with resistant, resistant people. [01:05:03.757 – 01:05:11.017] Uh, yeah, my mind just takes off with that, but- Anybody else?

[01:05:11.017 – 01:05:11.597] Yeah. [01:05:11.597 – 01:05:12.277] Yeah, Will. [01:05:12.277 – 01:05:17.337] Dealing with remorse. [01:05:17.337 – 01:05:18.817] Remorse. [01:05:18.817 – 01:05:20.677] Oh. [01:05:20.677 – 01:05:21.376] Yeah. [01:05:21.376 – 01:05:22.217] Okay. [01:05:22.217 – 01:05:23.437] Yeah. [01:05:23.437 – 01:05:24.577] All right. [01:05:24.577 – 01:05:26.377] Yeah, got you. [01:05:26.377 – 01:05:30.677] Dealing with sponsees that are really struggling with just functioning in life. [01:05:30.677 – 01:05:33.366] You know, they're, they're depressed, they're… [01:05:33.366 – 01:05:34.597] You know, the developments. [01:05:34.597 – 01:05:35.767] Mm-hmm. [01:05:35.767 – 01:05:39.777] Can't seem to get a job or get better. [01:05:39.777 – 01:05:41.457] All dressed up with nowhere to go. [01:05:41.457 – 01:05:46.817] Okay. [01:05:46.817 – 01:05:47.037] Yeah. [01:05:47.037 – 01:05:48.116] Good deal. [01:05:48.116 – 01:05:50.917] Could have been a contender. [01:05:50.917 – 01:05:57.577] Anybody else? [01:05:57.577 – 01:06:00.597] 'Cause, of course, you know either one of those could go for a week.

[01:06:00.597 – 01:06:01.136] A week. [01:06:01.136 – 01:06:02.037] Yeah. [01:06:02.037 – 01:06:13.237] How about your experience emotional and spiritual, emotional to pray, spiritual growth, and, um, living [01:06:13.237 – 01:06:16.377] in and out of the rooms in all areas of your life. [01:06:16.377 – 01:06:16.757] Mm-hmm. [01:06:16.757 – 01:06:18.717] And your thoughts on that. [01:06:18.717 – 01:06:19.517] Mm-hmm. [01:06:19.517 – 01:06:24.657] Stuff like all this knowledge I have, but it actually- Yeah … [01:06:24.657 – 01:06:24.887] doesn't apply to life. [01:06:24.887 – 01:06:24.957] Yeah. [01:06:24.957 – 01:06:25.257] Yeah. [01:06:25.257 – 01:06:26.417] Yeah. [01:06:26.417 – 01:06:28.177] That's an excellent thing. [01:06:28.177 – 01:06:28.407] Yeah. [01:06:28.407 – 01:06:32.627] How you get it from the concept stage in the rooms into real- … [01:06:32.627 – 01:06:33.257] where we live. [01:06:33.257 – 01:06:34.097] Yeah. [01:06:34.097 – 01:06:34.817] Good stuff.

[01:06:34.817 – 01:06:35.917] Yeah. [01:06:35.917 – 01:06:36.776] One more. [01:06:36.776 – 01:06:40.897] And, uh, like we didn't have enough to do. [01:06:40.897 – 01:06:42.636] You remember all that, don't you? [01:06:42.636 – 01:06:44.897] Self-supporting through your own contribution. [01:06:44.897 – 01:06:45.417] I'm sorry? [01:06:45.417 – 01:06:47.977] Being self-supporting through your own contribution. [01:06:47.977 – 01:07:00.117] I'm talking about mostly grounding myself in my daily considerations and plus my human duties, really living in the middle [01:07:00.117 – 01:07:00.597] of it. [01:07:00.597 – 01:07:02.677] And did you follow that? [01:07:02.677 – 01:07:03.997] Yeah, I'm going home. [01:07:03.997 – 01:07:11.997] Help me just one thing. [01:07:11.997 – 01:07:17.777] You, you said being self-supporting through your own contributions, and then I couldn't quite follow that, that second part.

[01:07:17.777 – 01:07:18.777] Couldn't hear it quite well. [01:07:18.777 – 01:07:24.737] Um, grounding your ideal in a power greater than yourself. [01:07:24.737 – 01:07:25.717] Mm-hmm. [01:07:25.717 – 01:07:26.676] Yeah. [01:07:26.676 – 01:07:26.837] In the steps. [01:07:26.837 – 01:07:27.877] Yeah. [01:07:27.877 – 01:07:29.767] In order to remain. [01:07:29.767 – 01:07:30.177] Yeah. [01:07:30.177 – 01:07:33.357] Okay. [01:07:33.357 – 01:07:35.617] Did I screw up? [01:07:35.617 – 01:07:36.817] No, I heard it then. [01:07:36.817 – 01:07:38.717] I'm just not incredibly brilliant. [01:07:38.717 – 01:07:40.507] I have trouble following sometimes. [01:07:40.507 – 01:07:41.457] The, uh… [01:07:41.457 – 01:07:46.657] I'm having trouble connecting to self-supporting and that, uh, that, that, that spiritual connection. [01:07:46.657 – 01:07:47.487] Okay. [01:07:47.487 – 01:07:47.637] Yeah. [01:07:47.637 – 01:07:50.737] You've got a connection in there, but I, I'm… [01:07:50.737 – 01:07:55.877] Perfect. [01:07:55.877 – 01:07:58.537] Okay. [01:07:58.537 – 01:08:07.217] You all s- you all obviously know that if we try to address those, we're gonna be here till sometime in the middle of next week.

[01:08:07.217 – 01:08:07.637] Yeah. [01:08:07.637 – 01:08:08.907] All right. [01:08:08.907 – 01:08:18.767] However, if you'll allow us to tell some stories, we can illustrate each one of them, sometimes a couple of them- Mm-hmm … [01:08:18.767 – 01:08:21.257] from our own experience, if, if that's suitable. [01:08:21.257 – 01:08:28.717] Uh, I left my lecture notes at home, and I left my addressing this notes at home. [01:08:28.717 – 01:08:32.137] But yeah, I, I hear what you're saying. [01:08:32.137 – 01:08:33.677] We've got personal experiences. [01:08:33.677 – 01:08:34.527] Mm-hmm. [01:08:34.527 – 01:08:39.757] You're talking about the application of spiritual principles in the real world. [01:08:39.757 – 01:08:40.377] Mm-hmm. [01:08:40.377 – 01:08:42.717] Is the essence of what I heard coming out here.

[01:08:42.717 – 01:08:44.517] How do you do that? [01:08:44.517 – 01:08:49.197] Well, let me address remorse first. [01:08:49.197 – 01:08:52.237] We'll get that, that done because I know about that. [01:08:52.237 – 01:09:00.717] Guilt is one I have been caught violating one of your rules or laws or principles, and I feel guilty. [01:09:00.717 – 01:09:02.557] Very easy to deal with. [01:09:02.557 – 01:09:05.337] I wait for you to tell me what kind of time I have to do. [01:09:05.337 – 01:09:07.167] Mm-hmm. [01:09:07.167 – 01:09:08.257] It's the payback. [01:09:08.257 – 01:09:13.877] Then I do that, and as soon as that's done or shortly before it's done, I just go my merry way.

[01:09:13.877 – 01:09:14.496] That's easy. [01:09:14.496 – 01:09:25.077] Remorse and shame is when I have caught myself violating one of my principles, one of my true beliefs, violating who I am, [01:09:25.077 – 01:09:26.337] and there is no payoff. [01:09:26.337 – 01:09:33.017] I'm gonna tell you a little story. [01:09:33.017 – 01:09:34.037] This one hurts. [01:09:34.037 – 01:09:37.167] I like to keep it fresh because you've all got one of these. [01:09:37.167 – 01:09:44.497] We all have an ace in the hole, father, mother, uncle. [01:09:44.497 – 01:09:51.857] We've got a place where when all else fails, I can go back and rest for a few days, and my dad was that.

[01:09:51.857 – 01:09:57.097] And during the last part of my sickness, I was part of a subculture. [01:09:57.097 – 01:10:01.897] I'm one of the freaks that came out of Berkeley, screaming out, "Where there's dope, there's hope. [01:10:01.897 – 01:10:07.437] Burn down city hall." And we lived underground. [01:10:07.437 – 01:10:08.877] There's a real culture out there. [01:10:08.877 – 01:10:13.777] Anyway, we were resting, and Albert called me in Albuquerque. [01:10:13.777 – 01:10:15.797] Albert was one of the snakes I ran with. [01:10:15.797 – 01:10:26.377] And Albert said, uh, "We got thirty kilos of good marijuana as far as Juarez, [01:10:26.377 – 01:10:33.337] and our driver got busted, and we need somebody to go get it." Now, get the whole picture.

[01:10:33.337 – 01:10:42.677] At the time, I'm a single parent to two little boys, one, uh, six and one four. [01:10:42.677 – 01:10:45.937] I'm trying to be a parent, but we're on the road. [01:10:45.937 – 01:10:48.117] Don't want to get too dramatic with it. [01:10:48.117 – 01:10:51.427] Albert says, "We need somebody to get them. [01:10:51.427 – 01:11:01.589] Would you do it?" And I said, "Of course, Albert." Now, that should give you some dimension of- Where I'm at, I'm trying to keep these kids safe, and I just [01:11:01.589 – 01:11:05.649] accept the job of smuggling thirty kilos of marijuana out of Juarez, Mexico.

[01:11:05.649 – 01:11:08.989] And I didn't do it for the money. [01:11:08.989 – 01:11:11.709] I did it for prestige. [01:11:11.709 – 01:11:23.069] I was the only one in the United States they could think of to call to go into old Mexico get [01:11:23.069 – 01:11:23.909] the job done. [01:11:23.909 – 01:11:27.269] The truth was, Albert had been told to call me. [01:11:27.269 – 01:11:33.669] They said, "Call Fritz because he's crazy." So anyway, we , we took the job. [01:11:33.669 – 01:11:37.669] I stopped drinking and put on a little bit of weight. [01:11:37.669 – 01:11:39.249] Did the math. [01:11:39.249 – 01:11:40.149] Got my head clear.

[01:11:40.149 – 01:11:43.069] Uh, the math was necessary. [01:11:43.069 – 01:11:45.669] How much volume is there in thirty kilos of marijuana? [01:11:45.669 – 01:11:46.709] The way it was packed then. [01:11:46.709 – 01:11:49.969] I needed to know what kind of box can I put this in. [01:11:49.969 – 01:11:52.009] I'm sane now. [01:11:52.009 – 01:11:53.629] Yeah, well. [01:11:53.629 – 01:11:57.589] I'm functioning. [01:11:57.589 – 01:12:01.349] Cleaned the boys up, cleaned me up. [01:12:01.349 – 01:12:05.129] Sport coat, young American turista father. [01:12:05.129 – 01:12:06.929] That's the role we're gonna play. [01:12:06.929 – 01:12:15.129] Had them rent a VW van in somebody else's name and had them get us a place to stay. [01:12:15.129 – 01:12:17.589] At this point, I have nothing to do with the deal.

[01:12:17.589 – 01:12:20.969] If it falls apart before I get there, I'm not in it. [01:12:20.969 – 01:12:23.249] I'm not stupid. [01:12:23.249 – 01:12:24.409] I'm just insane. [01:12:24.409 – 01:12:30.069] When we got into Juarez, I got the van, got us into Juarez. [01:12:30.069 – 01:12:32.509] I didn't pick the stuff up. [01:12:32.509 – 01:12:33.689] It was laying in a motel. [01:12:33.689 – 01:12:35.509] They picked it up and then transferred to me. [01:12:35.509 – 01:12:40.469] The hotel they'd picked for us, of course, was just a whorehouse motel in Juarez. [01:12:40.469 – 01:12:47.349] Uh, we immediately moved into the Holiday Inn-style place uptown, turista. [01:12:47.349 – 01:12:54.249] That volume fits perfectly in a single air mattress.

[01:12:54.249 – 01:13:01.469] So I opened the end up and stuffed the mattress, then resealed it, put air in it. [01:13:01.469 – 01:13:03.169] That cuts the smell down. [01:13:03.169 – 01:13:07.249] Then on top of that, I put dirty diapers. [01:13:07.249 – 01:13:11.609] And on top of that, I put my two little boys. [01:13:11.609 – 01:13:20.249] So when we hit the border crossing, I turned to the children and right out of nowhere, screamed at them. [01:13:20.249 – 01:13:27.149] Scared them so they'd be crying because they don't mess with you when you got crying kids in dirty diapers.

[01:13:27.149 – 01:13:34.989] That's remorse. [01:13:34.989 – 01:13:45.609] Forever broke [01:13:45.609 – 01:13:48.229] the bond between me and my kids. [01:13:48.229 – 01:13:51.509] That's regret. [01:13:51.509 – 01:13:52.269] That's remorse. [01:13:52.269 – 01:13:56.069] There is no payback for that except the one I found here. [01:13:56.069 – 01:14:03.449] In the fourth step, there is a promise that is so profound: Face and be rid of. [01:14:03.449 – 01:14:06.829] I didn't come here to just get fixed. [01:14:06.829 – 01:14:13.189] I came here to be changed into the kind of person who's not capable of committing that act ever again. [01:14:13.189 – 01:14:14.869] That's the only thing I know to do with it, Will.

[01:14:14.869 – 01:14:19.569] The change so profound that I'm no longer that person. [01:14:19.569 – 01:14:24.449] Now, I still have to deal with the fact that I've got to clean that up for the kids. [01:14:24.449 – 01:14:27.529] They're scarred, and will always be scarred. [01:14:27.529 – 01:14:32.409] Uh, but they're in an arena where they can get better from it. [01:14:32.409 – 01:14:38.249] So the answer is change so profoundly you could never do that again. [01:14:38.249 – 01:14:39.829] Total surrender. [01:14:39.829 – 01:14:46.329] As long as I'm capable of committing that kind of an act, I cannot live with myself.

[01:14:46.329 – 01:14:49.029] I can't. [01:14:49.029 – 01:14:51.589] Can't deal with it. [01:14:51.589 – 01:14:53.589] How can you deal with that kind of thing? [01:14:53.589 – 01:14:54.969] You just have to be differently. [01:14:54.969 – 01:14:56.849] Okay? [01:14:56.849 – 01:14:58.869] And that's what I did find here. [01:14:58.869 – 01:15:00.928] That's precisely what occurred. [01:15:00.928 – 01:15:07.609] Then the next job is to tell you that, so you can get off your own back. [01:15:07.609 – 01:15:11.428] Because like it or not, that's the best I could do. [01:15:11.428 – 01:15:13.989] That's pretty shabby. [01:15:13.989 – 01:15:16.488] I'd rather die than do that ever again. [01:15:16.488 – 01:15:18.509] But you don't have to die. [01:15:18.509 – 01:15:20.629] You get to be something even better.

[01:15:20.629 – 01:15:28.489] Let me mention two, two, two different levels of remorse that I think about, Wilbur. [01:15:28.489 – 01:15:35.609] One is, uh, that remorse comes when I fail to follow my hunches. [01:15:35.609 – 01:15:42.499] That– A- a- and what I'm talking about, and I'm talking about a, you know, a different level of it, of the day-to-day [01:15:42.598 – 01:15:44.598] Day things that building up remorse. [01:15:44.598 – 01:15:54.798] Because what I found is that when I listen to my hunches, and I do what I feel the urge to do, uh, if I don't do it, I always

[01:15:54.798 – 01:15:55.578] regret it. [01:15:55.578 – 01:15:58.078] It was a real message. [01:15:58.078 – 01:16:08.258] You know, if I've got a friend sick in the hospital, and I have a, a hunch that I ought to go see him, if I don't, uh, deep, [01:16:08.258 – 01:16:09.018] deep remorse. [01:16:09.018 – 01:16:10.318] Because… [01:16:10.318 – 01:16:16.218] And I think that's the signals, you know, about being in tune with the, the, call it voices, if you will. [01:16:16.218 – 01:16:20.978] But the things that I feel spiritually driven to do, those hunches. [01:16:20.978 – 01:16:26.518] And if I take over and impose my judgment, I'll nearly always have remorse about that.

[01:16:26.518 – 01:16:36.598] What I, what I've learned is that, that my first hunch, even, you know, whether it's a spiritual signal or not, but my [01:16:36.598 – 01:16:41.918] first impression about something is usually the most, the most correct one I'll ever have. [01:16:41.918 – 01:16:46.678] And if I follow that up with a whole bunch of thinking, all I do is screw it up. [01:16:46.678 – 01:16:55.118] And after a cer-certain amount of, of a whole bunch of turmoil and confusion, I wind up right back where I started, but often too late.

[01:16:55.118 – 01:16:56.178] So that's one level. [01:16:56.178 – 01:17:05.898] The other that I think, uh, kind of like Don talked about, our, our program is designed to provide the surgery for the soul. [01:17:05.898 – 01:17:08.978] The, that, that, you know, from deep remorse like that. [01:17:08.978 – 01:17:14.158] And, uh, and I have some, and I think we can sort of visit steps a little bit, this thing. [01:17:14.158 – 01:17:23.978] You know, I, I believe that what starts to emerge in the fourth step, and then gets crystallized in the, in the eighth and ninth are the surgery of the soul.

[01:17:23.978 – 01:17:32.598] You know, where I start getting– rooting out those causes and conditions and, and the, the enormous damage that has come from my defects of character. [01:17:32.598 – 01:17:42.778] And, and my belief is, whether it's true or not, it's certainly my belief, is that every time, whether it's gravity like, [01:17:42.778 – 01:17:51.057] like he's talking about, or gravity like in my case, where I took human life, you know, all of th- all of these things have an enormous weight. [01:17:51.057 – 01:17:57.998] And so do, so do those far lesser things that make up an amends list.

[01:17:57.998 – 01:18:08.158] And my belief is that I will never have the freedom that this program promises until I take that surgical procedure [01:18:08.158 – 01:18:10.758] and give it my best to make right those wrongs. [01:18:10.758 – 01:18:18.558] And, and so it-it's one thing to recognize it and deal with it, but if– I, I don't have to figure it out and deal with it. [01:18:18.558 – 01:18:21.338] What I have to do is take the steps and let it happen. [01:18:21.338 – 01:18:29.618] And, uh, if we don't, I think we pay an awful price because those things become the anchors that we drag through life.

[01:18:29.618 – 01:18:36.998] And I won't be free till I'm able to turn them loose, and just kidding myself that it wasn't all that bad is not enough. [01:18:36.998 – 01:18:41.558] Just having somebody try to placate me and say, "Oh, you weren't that bad," is not enough. [01:18:41.558 – 01:18:45.998] You know, what I have to do is root out those things that, that eat me up. [01:18:45.998 – 01:18:54.358] And, uh, so yeah, I, I think the steps di-di-directly put us through at whatever level, uh, so that we can find peace.

[01:18:54.358 – 01:18:55.878] Uh. [01:18:55.878 – 01:18:59.218] This kind of thing is about being shabby. [01:18:59.218 – 01:19:04.558] I described a high intensity, high drama piece. [01:19:04.558 – 01:19:07.118] The children were in no real danger. [01:19:07.118 – 01:19:09.718] Don't mistake that. [01:19:09.718 – 01:19:15.018] Had we been caught, they'd have been better off because they'd have gone to at least a decent foster home. [01:19:15.018 – 01:19:22.778] What I did to my children is that for no reason whatsoever, I broke the spiritual bond between us. [01:19:22.778 – 01:19:26.658] I harmed them to accomplish my own ends. [01:19:26.658 – 01:19:31.658] Totally self-serving, and that's what inventory brings me to every case.

[01:19:31.658 – 01:19:33.218] It's shabby. [01:19:33.218 – 01:19:36.118] It's about me wanting a little prestige. [01:19:36.118 – 01:19:39.558] It's about me wanting this or that, a little money or whatever. [01:19:39.558 – 01:19:43.298] Uh, and that's the one that's hard to face. [01:19:43.298 – 01:19:46.338] That on my own, I am nothing. [01:19:46.338 – 01:19:47.818] It's very clear. [01:19:47.818 – 01:19:55.218] Left to my own devices, at my very best, if there's ten people in the room, at my very, very best, I can help nine of them. [01:19:55.218 – 01:19:56.818] Somebody's gonna get screwed. [01:19:56.818 – 01:20:03.938] In God's hands, I have found that even the onlookers benefit.

[01:20:03.938 – 01:20:05.378] Mm. [01:20:05.378 – 01:20:06.938] No-nobody gets messed with. [01:20:06.938 – 01:20:09.237] E-even people just crossing the street. [01:20:09.237 – 01:20:10.918] Okay. [01:20:10.918 – 01:20:17.578] Two little pieces from the prayer that goes along with this. [01:20:17.578 – 01:20:21.498] This whole thing is about me getting conscious in the relationship with God. [01:20:21.498 – 01:20:25.838] We ask for guidance and direction. [01:20:25.838 – 01:20:33.458] Well, there was an old Assembly of God preacher who used to come into the penitentiary, and I discovered that I like spiritual people. [01:20:33.458 – 01:20:35.138] I don't care what they call themselves. [01:20:35.138 – 01:20:37.858] And I love singing hymns. [01:20:37.858 – 01:20:42.518] We Shall Gather at the River still brings tears to my eyes.

[01:20:42.518 – 01:20:46.198] You sing In the Garden, oh, I'm dead meat. [01:20:46.198 – 01:20:56.238] And this guy was– I had this illusion that spiritual people were perfect, and, [01:20:56.238 – 01:20:57.638] and he was one. [01:20:57.638 – 01:21:03.478] And yet he said he had difficulties sometimes and temptations sometimes. [01:21:03.478 – 01:21:12.888] I asked him, "What do you do?" He said, "Well, when I'm tempted with something, and I'm not sure…" See, I know the difference between right and wrong. [01:21:12.888 – 01:21:14.658] It's the gray area that I get in trouble. [01:21:14.658 – 01:21:28.338] "If I'm not sure," he said, "I take the Master by the hand and say, 'If I go do this, will you go with me?' And I've got my guide." Today's

[01:21:28.338 – 01:21:29.358] guide is a little different. [01:21:29.358 – 01:21:30.558] It's a little more personal. [01:21:30.558 – 01:21:39.098] If what I'm about to do, would it be all right if my mother, my wife, my daughter, and my granddaughter saw me do it? [01:21:39.098 – 01:21:43.078] If the answer isn't absolutely yes, I'm not doing it. [01:21:43.078 – 01:21:47.130] See, it just gets real simple- Mm … [01:21:47.130 – 01:21:48.310] and basic that way. [01:21:48.310 – 01:21:53.790] And the temptations are even harder as you get rid of your defenses against your temptations. [01:21:53.790 – 01:21:56.150] Okay. [01:21:56.150 – 01:21:58.970] It gets really tough. [01:21:58.970 – 01:22:02.850] Man, I don't wanna really hurt anybody.

[01:22:02.850 – 01:22:09.190] But that, in, in relating to that, clearing away self, which mean… [01:22:09.190 – 01:22:12.230] See, the spiritual life is a very practical life to me. [01:22:12.230 – 01:22:17.090] Anything that separates me from the children of God separates me from God. [01:22:17.090 – 01:22:25.190] And since the whole idea of God's bigger than I can even begin to comprehend, the mercy of AA is that it deals with it on this level. [01:22:25.190 – 01:22:27.430] Okay? [01:22:27.430 – 01:22:35.240] One of the old masters says, "Treat people like you wanna be treated," because what goes around does come around.

[01:22:35.240 – 01:22:39.210] And, uh, and, uh, th- those are some of the guides. [01:22:39.210 – 01:22:42.770] I must engage in this thing. [01:22:42.770 – 01:22:45.970] I've got a lovely guy, sober several years now. [01:22:45.970 – 01:22:48.250] Never talks at meeting, never does nothing. [01:22:48.250 – 01:22:49.270] He's just miserable. [01:22:49.270 – 01:22:51.750] He's in deep depression. [01:22:51.750 – 01:22:53.430] Of course he is. [01:22:53.430 – 01:22:56.709] If you get up and sing for a minute, he'd be over it. [01:22:56.709 – 01:23:02.430] But he doesn't know how to sing, or doesn't wanna sing, or whatever. [01:23:02.430 – 01:23:05.310] Anyway, d- d- does that help a little bit? [01:23:05.310 – 01:23:07.330] There are no pat answers for this.

[01:23:07.330 – 01:23:13.770] I must behave as if God were at hand because where I am, God is. [01:23:13.770 – 01:23:20.510] And if He wants me to run my head into the wall, or if I wanna run my head into the wall, He just stands by and lets me. [01:23:20.510 – 01:23:23.110] Keeps the bandages handy. [01:23:23.110 – 01:23:27.870] If I don't wanna run my head into the wall, all I gotta do is ask for the strength to do the right thing. [01:23:27.870 – 01:23:34.270] And when I ask, "Will you go with me?" If I get a strong yes, I go.

[01:23:34.270 – 01:23:37.570] And that's the toughest one of all. [01:23:37.570 – 01:23:40.390] That's the hardest one, 'cause I know it's gonna… [01:23:40.390 – 01:23:45.490] I'm gonna be doing something that's extraordinary if I say y- yes to that and go. [01:23:45.490 – 01:23:47.470] If I get a no, I don't go. [01:23:47.470 – 01:23:50.650] If I don't get either one, I don't go. [01:23:50.650 – 01:23:52.929] That's the gray area. [01:23:52.929 – 01:23:54.130] That's where the doubts are. [01:23:54.130 – 01:23:56.450] If you're not sure you oughta do it, don't. [01:23:56.450 – 01:23:59.730] Don't. [01:23:59.730 – 01:24:02.830] Find out why you're doubtful. [01:24:02.830 – 01:24:13.240] I might have missed it, but your, your temptations get harder as you, as you lose your defense against your temptations,

[01:24:13.240 – 01:24:13.870] how? [01:24:13.870 – 01:24:18.660] I am more vulnerable to drinking today than I ever was before- Okay … [01:24:18.660 – 01:24:20.650] because I don't see alcohol. [01:24:20.650 – 01:24:21.540] Yeah. [01:24:21.540 – 01:24:23.550] By that way, you- It's not part of my mind. [01:24:23.550 – 01:24:25.490] The mental obsession with alcohol is gone. [01:24:25.490 – 01:24:26.510] I don't even see it. [01:24:26.510 – 01:24:32.710] 15 or so years ago, I was flying home. [01:24:32.710 – 01:24:40.010] Uh, I, I think those of us who are sober a while are in far more danger of drinking because of the truth than we are lies. [01:24:40.010 – 01:24:44.770] You gotta all work real hard to come up with enough lies to convince me it's okay for me to drink.

[01:24:44.770 – 01:24:45.390] I know better. [01:24:45.390 – 01:24:51.230] But I'm flying home, and this was a perfect eve- I'd given a talk. [01:24:51.230 – 01:24:52.370] It didn't hurt anybody. [01:24:52.370 – 01:24:55.430] Uh, they even drove me back to the airport. [01:24:55.430 – 01:24:56.350] They didn't make me walk. [01:24:56.350 – 01:25:03.290] Uh, I fly United a lot, and on this particular evening, because of that, they moved me into first class. [01:25:03.290 – 01:25:07.750] I used to think that's 'cause I had some special thing going. [01:25:07.750 – 01:25:12.290] It's 'cause they can't sell that seat, but they can sell mine back here.

[01:25:12.290 – 01:25:13.350] They just moved me up. [01:25:13.350 – 01:25:17.990] That's an ego deflator. [01:25:17.990 – 01:25:21.790] But it's nice up in first class. [01:25:21.790 – 01:25:24.570] Uh, real food, real plates. [01:25:24.570 – 01:25:26.450] It's an evening flight. [01:25:26.450 – 01:25:28.550] I'm in fit spiritual condition. [01:25:28.550 – 01:25:30.510] I'm going home to the family I adore. [01:25:30.510 – 01:25:33.810] I've got a book I've been waiting to read for several weeks. [01:25:33.810 – 01:25:39.950] The lights in the first class cabin were just wonderful, and I'm, I'm okay. [01:25:39.950 – 01:25:47.970] And I noticed out of the side of my, the corner of my eye, a flight attendant pouring this burgundy red stuff into my seat mate's glass.

[01:25:47.970 – 01:25:49.930] That's all it was. [01:25:49.930 – 01:25:59.230] And I looked over at it 'cause the light was hitting it, and my mind said, "That really looks good." And that's the truth. [01:25:59.230 – 01:25:59.910] It really did. [01:25:59.910 – 01:26:02.430] It's not wine. [01:26:02.430 – 01:26:02.930] It's that. [01:26:02.930 – 01:26:09.170] Then my mind said, "I bet that's gonna taste good." Of course it would. [01:26:09.170 – 01:26:10.530] That's why she's giving it to him. [01:26:10.530 – 01:26:12.610] I'm still not thinking alcohol. [01:26:12.610 – 01:26:20.800] Then my mind said, "I bet that's gonna make this whole dinner taste better." That's the main function of wine, you know?

[01:26:20.800 – 01:26:21.080] Uh-huh. [01:26:21.080 – 01:26:23.830] Cuts the grease from the last course so you can even taste it. [01:26:23.830 – 01:26:27.390] Then a prayer began in me. [01:26:27.390 – 01:26:30.390] I don't know how to describe this to you. [01:26:30.390 – 01:26:31.320] I just- [01:26:31.520 – 01:26:40.399] Know that I absolutely trust this inner resource, the spiritual resource, to protect me when I don't even know I need protecting, when I'm in the graze zone. [01:26:40.399 – 01:26:50.440] There's a sense that comes over me, and I immediately turned and went in and just got quiet, and realized my very next thought would have been, "I probably ought to

[01:26:50.440 – 01:26:53.840] have one of those," without ever thinking of alcohol. [01:26:53.840 – 01:26:56.030] That's how vulnerable I am today. [01:26:56.030 – 01:26:57.680] The temptations are much more… [01:26:57.680 – 01:27:02.940] I've got to really stay fit. [01:27:02.940 – 01:27:04.440] Okay. [01:27:04.440 – 01:27:07.400] We're out on the road a lot. [01:27:07.400 – 01:27:10.540] There's a lot of danger out here. [01:27:10.540 – 01:27:12.040] I don't know if you know that or not. [01:27:12.040 – 01:27:21.820] There's grave ego danger, there's grave physical danger, there's grave emotional danger, and it's real easy to cave into that. [01:27:21.820 – 01:27:32.280] After 50 people tell you you're just wonderful, you begin to think, "Maybe they're right." That means that I have special

[01:27:32.280 – 01:27:35.860] privilege, and that's where my ego goes with. [01:27:35.860 – 01:27:38.320] And no, I don't. [01:27:38.320 – 01:27:40.560] Do, does that help a little bit? [01:27:40.560 – 01:27:40.890] Yeah, it helps. [01:27:40.890 – 01:27:41.360] Yeah, okay. [01:27:41.360 – 01:27:42.460] Pardon me. [01:27:42.460 – 01:27:43.360] I'm a storyteller. [01:27:43.360 – 01:27:45.740] I, you gotta get it all, because I don't know anything. [01:27:45.740 – 01:27:55.740] I tell you, the, the part, the part of t- temptation, and, and I want to kind of lead this around and talk about that, uh, with, uh, the emotional recovery thing [01:27:55.740 – 01:27:56.360] a little bit too. [01:27:56.360 – 01:28:06.300] The, uh, with me, the, the more, the more critical kinds of temptation stuff are, are matters of principle things.

[01:28:06.300 – 01:28:15.160] You know, like, uh, like now, I'm not cured, but it's been many years since I've had a real crisis in terms of drinking. [01:28:15.160 – 01:28:21.860] That, that doesn't mean I'm cured, uh, because I, I know what causes that to be so. [01:28:21.860 – 01:28:31.920] But where I run into, to difficulties now is that as my life has changed and I've become a, a participant in life [01:28:31.920 – 01:28:40.820] and, and a responsible person, I have to make a lot of ethical, principle-based decisions that are sometimes tough to make.

[01:28:40.820 – 01:28:45.880] And, uh, with most older members, that's where I see the real crisis coming. [01:28:45.880 – 01:28:48.920] It's about values and, and what you stand for. [01:28:48.920 – 01:28:58.940] And, and so I f- I find a lot more threatening stuff that I have to be diligent about in terms of cutting corners, of not, of not being scrupulous about [01:28:58.940 – 01:28:59.940] the way I do business. [01:28:59.940 – 01:29:09.030] Uh, so, you know, the, the ones where it becomes a glaring thing of, of the burgundy, yeah, I can, I can deal with that one.

[01:29:09.030 – 01:29:14.799] The more subtle ones that kind of take away my integrity are the ones that I really have to watch out for. [01:29:14.799 – 01:29:22.340] You know, trouble with booze to me is always at least six months ahead of a crisis, at least. [01:29:22.340 – 01:29:32.560] And it, and it has to do with starting to lose that sort of sharp focus and clear kind of, of, of, of plug into the program. [01:29:32.560 – 01:29:42.400] Uh, you know, it's a strange thing, but you, you can, you can watch somebody headed for trouble.

[01:29:42.400 – 01:29:51.040] Probably, probably everybody here has seen somebody or may know somebody right now that's headed for trouble, and you know it. [01:29:51.040 – 01:29:58.440] Everybody recognizes it, but everybody is equally baffled about how to deal with it. [01:29:58.440 – 01:30:00.520] Now, how do you do it? [01:30:00.520 – 01:30:03.600] You know, and, and, you know, how, you charge in. [01:30:03.600 – 01:30:07.240] Sometimes you can charge in and do far more harm than good. [01:30:07.240 – 01:30:10.900] Um, but you see it. [01:30:10.900 – 01:30:12.600] You, you start seeing it in behavior. [01:30:12.600 – 01:30:15.260] You start seeing it in that squishy thing called attitude.

[01:30:15.260 – 01:30:19.000] You start seeing it in performance, in meetings, and stuff like that. [01:30:19.000 – 01:30:24.580] Uh, but how to, to step in and intervene is a real deal. [01:30:24.580 – 01:30:30.880] My group spent four hours recently in a workshop on working with people, and that's one of the things we talked about. [01:30:30.880 – 01:30:37.260] What we, what we wound up saying, the consensus of that group, was something I was talking about this morning. [01:30:37.260 – 01:30:39.120] It depends on the level of trust. [01:30:39.120 – 01:30:46.640] The person who can most, most, is most apt to be able to step in is the one with the greatest level of trust.

[01:30:46.640 – 01:30:52.620] If you have that trust, there is absolutely no limit to what you can do with an alcoholic. [01:30:52.620 – 01:30:54.380] There's no limit to what you can say. [01:30:54.380 – 01:30:59.240] If you don't have it, it's a pretty narrow limit to what you can do. [01:30:59.240 – 01:31:03.760] And, and so it's, uh, to me, those are where we tend… [01:31:03.760 – 01:31:05.900] And it, and it is about emotional recovery. [01:31:05.900 – 01:31:08.900] It's about being sound and solid. [01:31:08.900 – 01:31:16.580] And somebody asked me a while back, a good while back, to do a workshop on emotional recovery.

[01:31:16.580 – 01:31:26.740] Now, I'm a kind of a, a down-to-earth type of fellow, and my first reaction, even though I know that it's a legitimate term, my first [01:31:26.740 – 01:31:36.380] reaction was, "Hell's bells, I don't want to do a workshop on some touchy-feely stuff like that." And and then I thought, "Well, there's no real set agenda. [01:31:36.380 – 01:31:38.460] I can do what I want to do." That's what they said. [01:31:38.460 – 01:31:40.420] Kind of like we're doing here today. [01:31:40.420 – 01:31:44.100] I didn't know till lunch what the program was.

[01:31:44.100 – 01:31:54.200] Well, but I'm looking at this thing of emotional recovery and [01:31:54.200 – 01:31:55.340] how we're gonna tackle it. [01:31:55.340 – 01:32:00.860] And, and so I, I sat down, and in 20 minutes, I did what anybody in this room could do. [01:32:00.860 – 01:32:09.980] I thought about what is it that, that, that destroys emotional, what is it that, that tears up emotional recovery? [01:32:09.980 – 01:32:17.900] You know, I mean, it's one thing to talk about the wonderful nirvana of, of sound emotional recovery, but what is it that eats it up?

[01:32:17.900 – 01:32:20.560] And, and, and you could do the same thing I did. [01:32:20.560 – 01:32:27.140] I sat down, and in 20 minutes, I listed 28 things just in a brainstorming style of, you know, here's stuff that happened. [01:32:27.140 – 01:32:30.800] First one I put on the list was expectations. [01:32:30.800 – 01:32:40.808] And my God, a-and no wonder I put it first because I don't know of anything in the world that'll pull me off good, sound, emotional recovery [01:32:40.808 – 01:32:43.608] than putting on expectations on other people. [01:32:43.608 – 01:32:54.348] All I've gotta do to destroy my peace of mind is put expectations, 'cause what I do is let them have free space in my head, and

[01:32:54.348 – 01:32:59.808] I am absolutely done for because I've turned it over to somebody else. [01:32:59.808 – 01:33:02.308] And just, th-there's little things you'd think about. [01:33:02.308 – 01:33:07.528] Uh, getting over-committed, feeling like you're carrying the world on your shoulders. [01:33:07.528 – 01:33:10.288] Uh, worry. [01:33:10.288 – 01:33:17.468] The thing he mentioned this morning that sounds really innocuous, a little thing called change your mind. [01:33:17.468 – 01:33:19.808] Change your mind. [01:33:19.808 – 01:33:25.028] If you think about what we have, we have a, a real… [01:33:25.028 – 01:33:35.148] We have a spiritual hold on a new way of life, and all I have to do to lose it is change my mind,

[01:33:35.148 – 01:33:38.728] and that sucker can be gone in a heartbeat. [01:33:38.728 – 01:33:45.988] And so that thing of keeping spiritually sound and keeping emotionally sound is tremendously important. [01:33:45.988 – 01:33:50.508] And, and, and we had a good time doing, doing that thing on, on emotional recovery. [01:33:50.508 – 01:33:59.288] And, and, and so to me, that's the imminent danger, is when I start eroding that sound spiritual ground that I stand on. [01:33:59.288 – 01:34:06.808] And no matter what I sell it out to, uh, and you can make your own list of, of things that take that down.

[01:34:06.808 – 01:34:09.528] And so what, what deals with it? [01:34:09.528 – 01:34:13.368] Uh, I'll, I'll let you in on a little secret. [01:34:13.368 – 01:34:15.268] It goes a little bit to steps that, uh… [01:34:15.268 – 01:34:20.768] I'm not somebody who works on problems. [01:34:20.768 – 01:34:22.468] I literally don't. [01:34:22.468 – 01:34:28.968] And the reason I don't is because when I work on them, they honest to God get worse. [01:34:28.968 – 01:34:32.008] They really do. [01:34:32.008 – 01:34:42.028] If, if I'm trying to fix remorse, like Queen was talking about, if I'm trying to fix guilt or trying to work on relationships or whatever, you know, I guarantee you that I'll make it

[01:34:42.028 – 01:34:42.347] worse. [01:34:42.347 – 01:34:52.908] And, and, and, and, and what I found is that the way, the way that, that, that I work on the problems in my life is by [01:34:52.908 – 01:34:55.588] trying to do what the s- the program lays out. [01:34:55.588 – 01:35:03.348] That, that little th- Little thing in the twelve and twelve that I have come to really appreciate where it describes what the steps are. [01:35:03.348 – 01:35:09.368] It says almost exactly this. [01:35:09.368 – 01:35:19.388] I, I know I screwed up a little bit, but you, you'll recognize, is it says, "Our steps are a set of principles, spiritual in their nature." It'll tell me what

[01:35:19.388 – 01:35:20.128] the tools are. [01:35:20.128 – 01:35:30.208] "Which if practiced as a way of life." You know, that thing about you working the steps, doing the steps, writing the steps, seminar-ing the [01:35:30.208 – 01:35:32.948] steps, you know, to me, they're off the subject. [01:35:32.948 – 01:35:41.648] You know, you know, those are nice activities, but what the real key to the steps is, is in practice them as a way of life. [01:35:41.648 – 01:35:51.668] And, and what I found, and it's absolutely been my experience, that in forty-five years I have never consciously solved one single problem in

[01:35:51.668 – 01:35:52.828] Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:35:52.828 – 01:35:54.428] Not a single one. [01:35:54.428 – 01:36:02.888] I have never sat in a meeting or sat with a sponsor and said, "Eureka, I finally got it." It, it has never happened. [01:36:02.888 – 01:36:10.888] You know, what I find is that as I practice this set of principles as a way of life, amazing stuff happens. [01:36:10.888 – 01:36:13.048] Emotional sobriety happens. [01:36:13.048 – 01:36:14.928] Remorse gets dealt with. [01:36:14.928 – 01:36:20.488] You know, all of the things that constitute my alcoholism get a-addressed. [01:36:20.488 – 01:36:27.248] And, and, and so to me, that whole business about, you know, if there isn't emotional recovery, there'd not be recovery.

[01:36:27.248 – 01:36:33.528] You know, that whole business is how to be free of those, those devils that drove me. [01:36:33.528 – 01:36:38.228] And, and, and so that's the way I like to go at this kind of stuff. [01:36:38.228 – 01:36:43.477] I, I, I don't like to just set little goals and do stuff and do mechanical actions. [01:36:43.477 – 01:36:46.888] You know, that what I like to do is give myself to this program. [01:36:46.888 – 01:36:51.248] When I've got trouble, I never pursue the trouble. [01:36:51.248 – 01:36:52.938] What I do– We were talking about it a little bit last night.

[01:36:52.938 – 01:36:59.348] That what I do is, is I get focused like a laser on what I'm doing. [01:36:59.348 – 01:37:01.868] You know, I get focused like a laser. [01:37:01.868 – 01:37:06.448] I go to meetings, and I listen at that meeting like it's the Sermon on the Mount. [01:37:06.448 – 01:37:09.488] Now, I don't care if God's teaching you how to throw up. [01:37:09.488 – 01:37:13.628] I'll listen- I'll listen like I've never heard, you know. [01:37:13.628 – 01:37:15.888] Because I wanna get locked in, you know? [01:37:15.888 – 01:37:17.588] I wanna get really geared in. [01:37:17.588 – 01:37:20.348] And, and, and so that's how I go about dealing-

[01:37:20.488 – 01:37:21.008] With problems. [01:37:21.008 – 01:37:23.368] I don't try to fix them out yonder somewhere. [01:37:23.368 – 01:37:33.488] I try to fix them by getting solidly tuned in to who I am, what I'm about, I'm about, what my spiritual life is, so that I get solidly connected. [01:37:33.488 – 01:37:38.108] And then when I get like that, I- I'm about as strong as they come. [01:37:38.108 – 01:37:43.088] And when I try to fix it out yonder somewhere, I'm about as weak as can be. [01:37:43.088 – 01:37:43.298] Mm-hmm. [01:37:43.298 – 01:37:48.228] And so that's not just f- frothy philosophical stuff.

[01:37:48.228 – 01:37:55.948] That is truly what I believe happens, and it's certainly been my experience that if I practice this as a way of life, stuff just happens. [01:37:55.948 – 01:38:01.848] And, and those problems that eat me alive, one day I take a look and they ain't there. [01:38:01.848 – 01:38:06.608] I don't go looking for them, because, because I know how to find them. [01:38:06.608 – 01:38:10.808] All I had to do is just quit doing what keeps them out there, and they'll be back again. [01:38:10.808 – 01:38:15.488] Uh- Yeah, that's a powerful area.

[01:38:15.488 – 01:38:15.598] Yeah. [01:38:15.598 – 01:38:18.008] A practical story about what he just said. [01:38:18.008 – 01:38:20.528] How do I apply this on the street? [01:38:20.528 – 01:38:23.148] That, that's what I have to keep looking for. [01:38:23.148 – 01:38:26.868] I was working in community corrections in Denver. [01:38:26.868 – 01:38:31.868] You have to understand the correction system itself is designed to fail. [01:38:31.868 – 01:38:36.408] If you're going to work in it, you need to know that so that you, you don't. [01:38:36.408 – 01:38:39.268] So I got a probation officer here. [01:38:39.268 – 01:38:46.348] I was treatment services supervisor, so I'm here, and I've got my boss here and a couple other department heads here.

[01:38:46.348 – 01:38:49.067] Uh, she sends me a piece of paper. [01:38:49.067 – 01:38:50.788] I do something with it. [01:38:50.788 – 01:38:56.188] I send it to them so they can get it to here, so they can get back to them, through me, back to her. [01:38:56.188 – 01:38:58.888] That's designed to fail. [01:38:58.888 – 01:39:02.028] Somewhere, it just bogged down. [01:39:02.028 – 01:39:06.188] She's under pressure, and she's yelling at me. [01:39:06.188 – 01:39:08.628] And for a couple of weeks, okay. [01:39:08.628 – 01:39:14.028] Then she starts yelling at my boss, and he starts yelling at me. [01:39:14.028 – 01:39:15.688] Now I've got two of them yelling at me.

[01:39:15.688 – 01:39:17.567] Mm-hmm. [01:39:17.567 – 01:39:18.868] And it wasn't okay anymore. [01:39:18.868 – 01:39:21.548] Now, I know something. [01:39:21.548 – 01:39:25.968] One of the basic principles of this thing is if I'm disturbed, it's me, not you. [01:39:25.968 – 01:39:28.108] It's me. [01:39:28.108 – 01:39:29.108] I've got to deal with me. [01:39:29.108 – 01:39:35.368] So I sat down and did inventory the way I've been taught to do it because I, I caught myself. [01:39:35.368 – 01:39:36.408] I listened to myself. [01:39:36.408 – 01:39:40.308] I heard myself tell one of my staff about the bitch. [01:39:40.308 – 01:39:45.208] Right now, I know I am completely out of whack. [01:39:45.208 – 01:39:48.028] Her name is Stephanie, not the bitch.

[01:39:48.028 – 01:39:49.128] Mm-hmm. [01:39:49.128 – 01:39:53.788] And, and so that immediately triggers me to lock my office door. [01:39:53.788 – 01:39:59.048] Don't talk to anybody else because I'm starting to mess with my own staff. [01:39:59.048 – 01:40:01.428] Stupid thing to do. [01:40:01.428 – 01:40:07.908] Anyway, I, I got it fold in and discovered what was going on. [01:40:07.908 – 01:40:10.128] First of all, I want my boss to quit yelling at me. [01:40:10.128 – 01:40:14.748] I don't care if she yells at me, but I do care if he yells at me because he pays my check. [01:40:14.748 – 01:40:16.688] And he and I have an agreement.

[01:40:16.688 – 01:40:18.348] If he yells too much, he gets this. [01:40:18.348 – 01:40:23.148] That's the guy I work with. [01:40:23.148 – 01:40:25.268] And I wasn't ready to do that. [01:40:25.268 – 01:40:29.348] So I looked at what was going on. [01:40:29.348 – 01:40:37.908] It's all about her yelling at me because this paperwork that she had a timeline on wasn't back here yet, and that's because these people hadn't done theirs yet. [01:40:37.908 – 01:40:40.068] Blah, blah, blah. [01:40:40.068 – 01:40:43.188] The, the monster in the case was the fax machine. [01:40:43.188 – 01:40:50.748] I get the paperwork, and I go to fax it to her, and there's an hour wait to get to fax to her.

[01:40:50.748 – 01:40:52.488] Either hers is busy, mine's busy. [01:40:52.488 – 01:40:54.768] That whole thing is jammed up. [01:40:54.768 – 01:41:02.328] You have taught me the basic principle here is one to one, eyeball to eyeball. [01:41:02.328 – 01:41:05.088] Not telephones, not fax machines. [01:41:05.088 – 01:41:06.868] We're going to talk together. [01:41:06.868 – 01:41:09.648] Her office was about ten minutes away. [01:41:09.648 – 01:41:13.928] So I took the paperwork, and I drove over there. [01:41:13.928 – 01:41:17.588] And she was shocked to see me. [01:41:17.588 – 01:41:19.287] Gave her her paperwork. [01:41:19.287 – 01:41:23.708] And I asked her, "Do you have any for me?" She was shocked at that.

[01:41:23.708 – 01:41:25.108] In fact, confused. [01:41:25.108 – 01:41:30.888] After a week of that, the problem was solved. [01:41:30.888 – 01:41:37.347] And in twenty-five minutes, instead of an hour waiting for the fax, problem was solved. [01:41:37.347 – 01:41:38.847] She's no longer a threat to me. [01:41:38.847 – 01:41:40.808] My boss is no longer a threat to me. [01:41:40.808 – 01:41:41.428] I didn't try… [01:41:41.428 – 01:41:41.878] I'm like you. [01:41:41.878 – 01:41:43.328] I don't try to solve that problem. [01:41:43.328 – 01:41:44.788] What's wrong with me? [01:41:44.788 – 01:41:49.128] What can I bring to the situation that will make it better? [01:41:49.128 – 01:41:52.648] The recognition that she's under the same pressure I am.

[01:41:52.648 – 01:41:54.448] She got somebody yelling at her. [01:41:54.448 – 01:41:56.888] No wonder she's uptight. [01:41:56.888 – 01:41:59.148] It worked, by the way. [01:41:59.148 – 01:42:02.388] Last time I saw her, she came clear across the room and put a hug on me. [01:42:02.388 – 01:42:03.978] Mm-hmm. [01:42:03.978 – 01:42:06.648] Which was not what I had in mind, but it worked. [01:42:06.648 – 01:42:07.728] I don't mind that. [01:42:07.728 – 01:42:11.088] This goes to the street. [01:42:11.088 – 01:42:17.968] Prayer is an activity as well as a, an in the head thing. [01:42:17.968 – 01:42:18.828] It's an activity. [01:42:18.828 – 01:42:22.728] How can I bring about unity in my whole life? [01:42:22.728 – 01:42:27.548] Uh, well, that's how.

[01:42:27.548 – 01:42:32.168] Emotional s- sobriety means I recognize when I ain't. [01:42:32.168 – 01:42:34.478] Okay. [01:42:34.478 – 01:42:38.908] Right off the bat, I recognize I'm out of whack here. [01:42:38.908 – 01:42:40.788] The bitch just called. [01:42:40.788 – 01:42:51.108] Let me, let me tell you one little war story that, you know, sometimes it, it's– When I first heard people talking about the spiritual life [01:42:51.108 – 01:42:55.128] and, like, how you had to live it and, and, uh, like this morning, he was talking about the… [01:42:55.128 – 01:43:01.468] I see it right, but it, it actually was my image when I would hear people talking about the spiritual life and how it worked.

[01:43:01.468 – 01:43:04.768] You talk about how you found that parking place, you know, just driving around. [01:43:04.768 – 01:43:06.968] He's in the right place at the right time, and there's a parking. [01:43:06.968 – 01:43:16.998] When I heard people telling stuff like that, I thought, "Geez, what kind of witchcraft is this?" That it, it sounded like they just prayed and somebody's car blew up or something, you know, and [01:43:16.998 – 01:43:19.578] they just made the world turn around for them. [01:43:19.578 – 01:43:28.348] I, I– "Geez, that is just pure junk." And, uh, and then now I talk that way, but it makes sense when I talk that way.

[01:43:28.348 – 01:43:32.318] Well, it's the same message, you know? [01:43:32.318 – 01:43:36.538] But if, if you're not too dead to that, it really sounds goofy. [01:43:36.538 – 01:43:46.558] And, and, and what I've, what I've found is that the spiritual life, just, just like that, it, it's not just some sort of squishy, do-good, grinning Dalai Lama [01:43:46.558 – 01:43:46.798] stuff. [01:43:46.798 – 01:43:52.738] It, it really is about how to function effectively in life, and it works. [01:43:52.738 – 01:43:55.758] And I'll tell you one, one of a thousand stories. [01:43:55.758 – 01:44:00.638] Um, I w- I was heading a pretty large organization.

[01:44:00.638 – 01:44:10.638] And, and, uh, and I had something done that was really malicious and underhanded and, and, and injurious to people [01:44:10.638 – 01:44:11.438] that worked for me. [01:44:11.438 – 01:44:14.418] Uh, you remind me of that, with that story. [01:44:14.418 – 01:44:21.858] And, you know, I think as a supervisor, you're not only responsible for getting work out, you're also responsible for looking after the welfare of the folk. [01:44:21.858 – 01:44:31.478] And so I had forty-one people whose careers were gonna be destroyed over a decision that was made, and I'm the boss and they hadn't even consulted me, you know.

[01:44:31.478 – 01:44:33.258] Well, I mean, I was mad. [01:44:33.258 – 01:44:34.198] I, I was mad. [01:44:34.198 – 01:44:43.658] I was mad on behalf of the forty-one people, and I was about equally mad over the, the total disregard and insult to walking past me to screw my people. [01:44:43.658 – 01:44:47.398] And, and so, I mean, I was fit to be tied. [01:44:47.398 – 01:44:55.938] And, uh, so I, I, I said, "Well…" I demanded an audience. [01:44:55.938 – 01:44:59.038] I demanded an audience of the head of the system. [01:44:59.038 – 01:45:05.918] And, uh, and I guess I had enough rank that they respected the demand, and so they gave me an audience.

[01:45:05.918 – 01:45:13.518] Now, if you picture this, and this is absolutely true, exactly the way it happened, and, and why the spiritual life is not a wimpy thing. [01:45:13.518 – 01:45:13.918] Yeah. [01:45:13.918 – 01:45:21.158] I'm mad, and I'm, I've got in my mind that I'm gonna handle this sucker street level. [01:45:21.158 – 01:45:24.158] You know, I'm gonna go in there and just flat stick it in their ear. [01:45:24.158 – 01:45:32.758] And, and so I'm gonna meet with seven people, and most of the seven had directly benefited from the action that had been taken.

[01:45:32.758 – 01:45:42.798] So I gotta go meet with my enemies, in my mind, that had done me in and profited in the process, and I'm gonna go in there, so all I can think about is I'm gonna flat [01:45:42.798 – 01:45:43.538] foot them down. [01:45:43.538 – 01:45:49.278] And, uh, I'm driving to the meeting, spoiling for the fight. [01:45:49.278 – 01:45:53.358] And on the way up there, thank God it was a long drive. [01:45:53.358 – 01:45:58.178] And on the way, I got to thinking about who I am and where I'm going.

[01:45:58.178 – 01:46:02.638] And I thought, "My God, is this the way I take care of business? [01:46:02.638 – 01:46:12.718] That the only thing I can think of is to resort to the old street behavior, go up there and try to, to bang up on somebody or whatever?" And then I thought about [01:46:12.718 – 01:46:19.438] what, what, what our program says, is, is to, is to pray for those folk. [01:46:19.438 – 01:46:20.178] Yeah. [01:46:20.178 – 01:46:28.878] And so what I did, driving up US 1, was I put the face of each person visually in my mind.

[01:46:28.878 – 01:46:30.898] I knew them all well. [01:46:30.898 – 01:46:38.718] And so I put each one of them right there, and then I prayed directly with that face in, in, in, in my mind. [01:46:38.718 – 01:46:40.278] Virtual reality was there. [01:46:40.278 – 01:46:44.118] And, uh, and I gave them the benefit of the doubt. [01:46:44.118 – 01:46:54.118] I said, "Well, maybe these folk are wrong, but they're probably doing what they believe is right." Now, I did that seven times because, uh, uh, [01:46:54.118 – 01:46:54.998] picturing those people. [01:46:54.998 – 01:46:58.458] When I got through, I was no longer angry.

[01:46:58.458 – 01:47:02.298] I was still resolute, but I was not angry. [01:47:02.298 – 01:47:07.238] And we went into the meeting, and I sat down with those folks. [01:47:07.238 – 01:47:16.298] And it took a long time because I had to go through forty-one decisions and present my case for why that was a bad decision. [01:47:16.298 – 01:47:20.278] At the end of the first day, I hadn't lost a round. [01:47:20.278 – 01:47:22.838] I mean, I had won everything that came up. [01:47:22.838 – 01:47:25.258] And, but I couldn't lose. [01:47:25.258 – 01:47:27.818] You see, I mean, when I went in there, there was no way I could lose.

[01:47:27.818 – 01:47:30.518] If I'd have, if, if it had all gone the wrong way, I was at peace. [01:47:30.518 – 01:47:36.438] But I was determined that I was right, that I was trying to do the right thing, that I was not trying to be right. [01:47:36.438 – 01:47:38.498] I was trying to do what was right. [01:47:38.498 – 01:47:41.578] And at the end of that day, I was really on a roll, man. [01:47:41.578 – 01:47:42.358] I'd won everything. [01:47:42.358 – 01:47:49.578] And the boss said, "Tom, we're gonna have to, uh, call a break." And, uh, and I, and I didn't want a break.

[01:47:49.578 – 01:47:50.138] I'm on a roll. [01:47:50.138 – 01:47:51.838] You guys might as well quit. [01:47:51.838 – 01:47:54.758] And I said, "No, no, no, let's don't do that, man. [01:47:54.758 – 01:47:56.948] I gotta drive seventy-five miles." Wow. [01:47:56.948 – 01:47:59.958] And he said, "You've got us beat numb." I… [01:47:59.958 – 01:48:07.298] And I said, "All right, fine, I'll go do that with Short." Came back the next day and it hadn't even changed. [01:48:07.298 – 01:48:08.698] I mean, it, uh, picked up again. [01:48:08.698 – 01:48:09.228] I- [01:48:09.410 – 01:48:13.090] Out of 41 major issues, I lost one. [01:48:13.090 – 01:48:18.390] I think I could have won that one, but I just didn't want to rub their nose in it.

[01:48:18.390 – 01:48:28.050] But y- you see what I'm ta- I'm talking, if I had gone in there using the old Ivester strategies, they'd have eaten me alive. [01:48:28.050 – 01:48:33.570] I would've walked out of there with no gains and more losses if I'd have done it my way. [01:48:33.570 – 01:48:41.510] And that, that's why I say to you, I, I don't have to do this stuff if I let the power of the program take care of giving me what I need. [01:48:41.510 – 01:48:44.290] I'm a pretty doggone worthy adversary.

[01:48:44.290 – 01:48:52.390] But if you let me try to do it on out-slicking or out-toughening or out-smarting people, shoot, I'm gonna lose a lot more than win. [01:48:52.390 – 01:48:58.910] And, and so to me, that's what this thing i- i- is, is about not some doormat approach to life. [01:48:58.910 – 01:49:09.590] It's about being able to take a good, responsible position in trying to do something according to principles, you know, so that I don't get lost and weak in the process. [01:49:09.590 – 01:49:11.829] And, and just truly amazing things happen.

[01:49:11.829 – 01:49:18.210] And that's literally one of, of hundreds of cases that I could tell you where that, that genuinely works for me. [01:49:18.210 – 01:49:24.550] I, I'll tell you one more that, that just, it's a shorter one, but it, it's, uh, just as effective to me. [01:49:24.550 – 01:49:34.630] I, I got a call one day to go make a presentation on behalf of an agency, and I thought we were just gonna go sit [01:49:34.630 – 01:49:36.130] around a coffee table somewhere. [01:49:36.130 – 01:49:42.470] So I, I mean, I was, uh, uh, I was off duty, and so I just went up casually dressed in an old golf shirt, you know, and I sat down.

[01:49:42.470 – 01:49:47.270] Well, I didn't know it, but, uh, we had a Madison Avenue presentation scheduled. [01:49:47.270 – 01:49:57.650] And I walk into a real ritzy conference room with– and I've got people sitting in there who are my competitors, who had productions that were produced in Hollywood, [01:49:57.650 – 01:49:57.970] I think. [01:49:57.970 – 01:50:02.090] Man, they had videos and computers, and I had a legal pad. [01:50:02.090 – 01:50:02.560] You know what I mean? [01:50:02.560 – 01:50:09.630] I, I walk in there looking like a real doofus, you know, with my legal pad and some scrawled notes.

[01:50:09.630 – 01:50:11.190] I go, "What am I gonna do? [01:50:11.190 – 01:50:15.290] Man, I am absolutely outclassed." I mean, I was a hick in Las Vegas. [01:50:15.290 – 01:50:20.970] And, and, uh, uh, totally blindsided. [01:50:20.970 – 01:50:21.850] Well, what do you do? [01:50:21.850 – 01:50:25.470] When all else fails, try praying. [01:50:25.470 – 01:50:29.610] And so I stepped out, went down to the bathroom where I do my best praying. [01:50:29.610 – 01:50:36.030] And, and I asked God to help me do what I was there to do and try to get done what was right. [01:50:36.030 – 01:50:42.310] And so I walked in with my little old legal pad, made my presentation, and guess who walked out with it?

[01:50:42.310 – 01:50:44.790] See what I'm talking about? [01:50:44.790 – 01:50:51.410] And, and it wasn't a matter– I think I had the best deal, but I surely had the ugliest presentation. [01:50:51.410 – 01:51:01.570] But but when I'm trying to do the right thing, and I am genuinely trying to carry out God's will to do what's right for folk, uh, it's hard [01:51:01.570 – 01:51:02.090] to lose. [01:51:02.090 – 01:51:03.230] Awfully hard to lose. [01:51:03.230 – 01:51:07.770] And so it's amazing how, how, how this thing works out, this, this spiritual life. [01:51:07.770 – 01:51:14.530] And while I don't get into the fix-it business, you know, I just sort of practice things, let it gear me up to engage in life.

[01:51:14.530 – 01:51:18.050] And man, it's, it, it, it works strongly. [01:51:18.050 – 01:51:28.150] It seemed like there was one other area that– but one, one we want to get into and make sure we spend a little bit of time on is that, that whole business of, [01:51:28.150 – 01:51:29.050] of sponsorship. [01:51:29.050 – 01:51:34.389] Uh, I'll kick this off and then get Don to, uh, to, to pick up. [01:51:34.389 – 01:51:43.070] I- in the whole area of sponsorship, two things that, that, that, uh, that are pretty clear that, that, that need to be talked about a little bit.

[01:51:43.070 – 01:51:49.330] Uh, and, and probably more than that, but one is just that whole general thing about effective sponsorship. [01:51:49.330 – 01:51:59.350] Uh, you know, how we do it, and then, and then how you start, start knowing when to move away, how to move away, that [01:51:59.350 – 01:51:59.970] kind of stuff. [01:51:59.970 – 01:52:09.990] And, uh, and then the, the thing about the medication, which is an increasing, uh, in- increasingly, uh, troubling kind of thing in this whole business of, of how [01:52:09.990 – 01:52:10.830] we deal with people. [01:52:10.830 – 01:52:20.830] Uh, you know, I think, sometimes think that, uh, depression has become a, an attachment to alcoholism, you know, that i- in this day and time,

[01:52:20.830 – 01:52:23.550] you almost don't have it without some depression being hooked to it. [01:52:23.550 – 01:52:29.990] Uh, of course it does have a little something to do with getting insurance payment for going into treatment. [01:52:29.990 – 01:52:35.890] But nonetheless, uh, it is a very, very common kind of a problem to deal with. [01:52:35.890 – 01:52:42.670] Let, let me just sort of make some, some, uh, general remarks to start with about, about sponsorship. [01:52:42.670 – 01:52:45.090] I believe it is a vital thing. [01:52:45.090 – 01:52:54.430] Uh, I've never been without one except for that first little period when I came into the program and couldn't, didn't even know how to spell it, much less find one.

[01:52:54.430 – 01:52:58.270] And then, then I got one, and I've never been without one since. [01:52:58.270 – 01:53:04.010] And, and, uh, I've had three and, uh, still got my third one. [01:53:04.010 – 01:53:05.960] And I'm very, very grateful. [01:53:05.960 – 01:53:09.130] I, uh, I'm a, I'm a really lucky guy in a lot of ways. [01:53:09.130 – 01:53:18.170] Uh, I don't, I don't know how you'd, how you'd weigh it, but I've got to have one of the longest and, and strongest sponsorship lines I know anything about. [01:53:18.170 – 01:53:27.430] I'm forty-five years sober, and I've got a sponsor sober longer than me, and he has a sponsor longer than him.

[01:53:27.430 – 01:53:28.120] Wow. [01:53:28.120 – 01:53:32.790] And, uh, I mean, that, that's unbelievable, uh, of, of having that kind. [01:53:32.790 – 01:53:38.290] And what a great feeling- -to know that I got two old relics like that above me. [01:53:38.290 – 01:53:45.990] And, uh, I, I tell you, an, an interesting thing happens, and you can look forward to it if you're not already there. [01:53:45.990 – 01:53:54.550] As you get older in the program, finding sponsorship becomes more and more of a challenge. [01:53:54.550 – 01:54:02.930] Uh, you know, like I'm, right now, as I mentioned earlier, I'm the oldest, uh, male member in, in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, in North Carolina.

[01:54:02.930 – 01:54:13.370] And, uh, you know, I sort of have a, I sort of have a, not a job description, but I kind of have a, a criteria [01:54:13.370 – 01:54:15.070] for what I look for in a sponsor. [01:54:15.070 – 01:54:16.070] This is just me. [01:54:16.070 – 01:54:21.398] But I want a sponsor that's senior than me for, for one thing. [01:54:21.398 – 01:54:23.938] It's not absolutely vital, but it's, it's vital to me. [01:54:23.938 – 01:54:27.738] I want one that's senior just because it just feels good. [01:54:27.738 – 01:54:28.958] Just feels right. [01:54:28.958 – 01:54:35.438] Uh, I want one that's active in all legacies of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[01:54:35.438 – 01:54:45.858] Uh, I'm somebody who believes that you can get locked up in the steps so tightly that you get almost as isolated in recovery as you were in the, in the alcoholism. [01:54:45.858 – 01:54:52.878] And so I think you can really get into that kind of staring at your navel, checking your emotional pulse every 30 minutes. [01:54:52.878 – 01:54:57.978] And, uh, so, so I want somebody that's active in all legacies. [01:54:57.978 – 01:55:07.998] You know, that, that certainly recovery is the heart and soul, but if I don't learn unity so that I can connect with my fellow members and with the world around me, you know, I'm still

[01:55:07.998 – 01:55:08.938] in a heap of trouble. [01:55:08.938 – 01:55:10.238] And then service. [01:55:10.238 – 01:55:20.238] You know, I believe any, any, any recovery that does not involve a healthy, vigorous service life is a s- recovery that's short-changed and misses [01:55:20.238 – 01:55:21.997] a lot of where the real joy comes from. [01:55:21.997 – 01:55:28.998] So, so I want somebody who, who, who embodies that kind of stuff in the way they, they function. [01:55:28.998 – 01:55:33.118] I, I want somebody that, that I like. [01:55:33.118 – 01:55:35.358] I've never had a sponsor I didn't like. [01:55:35.358 – 01:55:39.678] Some people say, "If you don't hate him, you got the wrong one." I couldn't disagree more.

[01:55:39.678 – 01:55:44.858] I've never had a sponsor that I didn't like, that I didn't like to hang out with, that I didn't respect. [01:55:44.858 – 01:55:48.338] He used the term heroes. [01:55:48.338 – 01:55:50.458] My sponsor always been kind of heroes to me. [01:55:50.458 – 01:55:52.797] They're folk that I really look up to. [01:55:52.797 – 01:56:02.118] And, um, so th- th- I've sort of got that general criteria for, for what I'm, what I'm looking for in one. [01:56:02.118 – 01:56:10.238] I, I've got a way, and I give you this just sort of background so that it goes into this thing of how you function in sponsorship.

[01:56:10.238 – 01:56:18.098] If it isn't a, a well-developed marriage, so to speak, uh, it's not gonna have a lot of value, you know? [01:56:18.098 – 01:56:22.738] And so I've got a, a, a certain thing that I work out with, with, with… [01:56:22.738 – 01:56:33.178] I don't have much experience, but I, I make this standard in, in, in, when I set up a sponsorship with somebody, either somebody [01:56:33.178 – 01:56:35.038] I'm sponsoring or with my sponsor. [01:56:35.038 – 01:56:45.057] There's three things that I want understood with, with my sponsor, and I've got it understood with the fellow who has that job today.

[01:56:45.057 – 01:56:55.078] One, my sponsor is the only person on this planet, the only one who's invited into my [01:56:55.078 – 01:56:56.358] life unannounced. [01:56:56.358 – 01:56:59.458] Nobody else has that permission. [01:56:59.458 – 01:57:03.798] But he's somebody, it's his job. [01:57:03.798 – 01:57:09.098] I've asked him to step into my life anytime about anything. [01:57:09.098 – 01:57:11.758] Absolutely no holds barred. [01:57:11.758 – 01:57:19.918] And he's the person that I will listen to no matter what he's got to say. [01:57:19.918 – 01:57:22.038] I won't interrupt him. [01:57:22.038 – 01:57:24.918] Uh, now, I might argue with him later. [01:57:24.918 – 01:57:28.498] But, but I'm gonna hear him first.

[01:57:28.498 – 01:57:32.258] And, uh, and the, uh… [01:57:32.258 – 01:57:36.738] And I won't always do what he says, but I will hear what he says. [01:57:36.738 – 01:57:38.458] That's, that's what I want him to tell me. [01:57:38.458 – 01:57:41.458] Uh, and he's the only one I've got. [01:57:41.458 – 01:57:43.938] I mean, he's the person I'll call when the chips are down. [01:57:43.938 – 01:57:49.978] I may talk to a thousand other people, but when the chips are down, there is no question where I'm going. [01:57:49.978 – 01:57:56.858] And so that's sort of a, a fix I have on a job description for a cha- for a, for a, for a sponsor.

[01:57:56.858 – 01:58:06.898] You know, I, you know, I sometimes think that, that we, um, that we do a disservice to the, to the sponsor by, by [01:58:06.898 – 01:58:11.018] making a, a too great expectation on what it ought to be. [01:58:11.018 – 01:58:19.018] It sounds sometimes like we get to thinking that the sponsor ought to be a combination of, of Adolf Hitler and Sigmund Freud, you know? [01:58:19.018 – 01:58:29.018] That, that, that he gotta be a real kind of rock 'em, sock 'em, jump on you guy, and then have tremendous insight and understanding, be able to respond to

[01:58:29.018 – 01:58:30.438] any problem no matter what. [01:58:30.438 – 01:58:32.918] And that's a little unrealistic, you know? [01:58:32.918 – 01:58:36.458] A sponsor to me is a fairly practical thing. [01:58:36.458 – 01:58:45.958] It's somebody that fits that description, that I trust, who is somebody I can talk with about where I'm going, can share their experience with me. [01:58:45.958 – 01:58:52.558] And, and so I don't put those kind of real, uh, real glaring kinds of expectations on a guy. [01:58:52.558 – 01:58:56.998] I, I want it to be that kind of a sound, solid, functioning relationship.

[01:58:56.998 – 01:58:58.088] Um- [01:59:01.152 – 01:59:11.432] The, uh, you know, when I, when I set up sponsorship, and I do this with people I sponsor a- a- as well as when I sponsor, I always [01:59:11.432 – 01:59:13.512] make it a very serious transaction. [01:59:13.512 – 01:59:23.612] You know, I always have a private meeting, a scheduled meeting, so that we go in, usually meet for an hour, hour and a half, two hours, and basically what we want to [01:59:23.612 – 01:59:33.732] do is solidify that relationship, agree on what it is that we're looking for, what the expectations are, you know, so that there is no surprise

[01:59:33.732 – 01:59:34.972] in how we do business. [01:59:34.972 – 01:59:46.072] If we're gonna meet with, uh, with regularity or like at 6:00 in the morning, the cruelty that he imposes on people, Whatever [01:59:46.072 – 01:59:51.772] it is, we make an agreement, and then that's the agreement, and they become the terms under which we operate. [01:59:51.772 – 01:59:58.792] And, and so I, I like for sponsorship to have a real kind of a sound, a business-like thing. [01:59:58.792 – 02:00:09.292] You know, it, it's, what I'm dealing with is my life, and I don't want to be frivolous and casual about something that may be my lifeline

[02:00:09.292 – 02:00:12.052] at times, and I want it to be sound. [02:00:12.052 – 02:00:13.112] I want it to be solid. [02:00:13.112 – 02:00:14.472] Don't want it to be up for grabs. [02:00:14.472 – 02:00:24.632] Um, so the way I, the way I look at it, it's only in keeping with that realistic expectations, uh, [02:00:24.632 – 02:00:28.772] based somewhat on that stuff I was talking about earlier when I was trying to help start AA in this town. [02:00:28.772 – 02:00:39.012] My job, my job as a sponsor is to help the new person that I'm working with know that there's

[02:00:39.012 – 02:00:46.592] a solution, clearly know that there's a solution, and just as clearly know that I'm not it. [02:00:46.592 – 02:00:53.712] That I'm not it, and that came somewhat from watching people drop like flies when I left a town. [02:00:53.712 – 02:00:57.052] See, I had not let them know that there was a solution. [02:00:57.052 – 02:01:01.812] All they knew is that I was a wonderful person, and, and that's not enough. [02:01:01.812 – 02:01:03.052] That's not enough. [02:01:03.052 – 02:01:09.672] This illness is far too deadly for that kind of a, of a little, little lightweight approach.

[02:01:09.672 – 02:01:11.512] And so when, when I… [02:01:11.512 – 02:01:17.672] It sounds real simple to say that, but knowing that there's a solution doesn't mean just throwing some words at them. [02:01:17.672 – 02:01:22.912] It means having them to have enough understanding that they know how to put that in motion. [02:01:22.912 – 02:01:26.512] Sometimes it takes a, a, a short time. [02:01:26.512 – 02:01:28.712] Sometimes it takes a long time. [02:01:28.712 – 02:01:38.852] Um, I, I, I'll just say one more, one, one more thing about this, uh, generally about this thing of, of, [02:01:38.852 – 02:01:40.872] of, of discontinuing sponsorship.

[02:01:40.872 – 02:01:42.372] I don't like the term fired. [02:01:42.372 – 02:01:47.752] That, that, that just, uh, that's just not a good term for disrupting a spiritual relationship. [02:01:47.752 – 02:01:50.812] It, it just doesn't fit, because that's… [02:01:50.812 – 02:01:52.212] I mean, we're not employing somebody. [02:01:52.212 – 02:01:59.652] I mean, it's just something we agreed in good s- good faith to try to carry out, and sometimes it just doesn't work. [02:01:59.652 – 02:02:10.032] I, I don't, I don't commonly make it a practice to discontinue until I'm absolutely convinced that it no longer has utility.

[02:02:10.032 – 02:02:19.912] And, uh, and, and sometimes the, the kind of thing that I look at in, in discontinuing is… [02:02:19.912 – 02:02:27.272] Well, I'll give you one, one example of a guy I had that, um, he's a, you know, wonderful fellow. [02:02:27.272 – 02:02:28.432] He's sober 20 years. [02:02:28.432 – 02:02:31.632] Well, he's dry 20 years. [02:02:31.632 – 02:02:34.732] And and he was a guy that, that… [02:02:34.732 – 02:02:40.312] He was, he was one of the first people that I, that I stopped for therapeutic reasons. [02:02:40.312 – 02:02:43.252] Lack of therapy, I think, was probably… [02:02:43.252 – 02:02:53.372] I worked with this guy, and, and he was a, he's a, he's a, he's a real verbal kind of guy who really believes that he can

[02:02:53.372 – 02:02:55.032] make a living doing nothing. [02:02:55.032 – 02:02:58.572] I mean, he just thinks he can skim the world forever. [02:02:58.572 – 02:03:01.772] And horrendous background. [02:03:01.772 – 02:03:05.172] Loves to do fourth and fifth steps. [02:03:05.172 – 02:03:10.192] If you ever want to do a seminar on fourth and fifth steps, I'll be glad to send him up here and, and do it. [02:03:10.192 – 02:03:16.212] That guy is absolutely fabulous and just loves to talk about his last operation. [02:03:16.212 – 02:03:20.392] He'll, he'll beat you to death with that, and loves to do fifth steps. [02:03:20.392 – 02:03:26.812] But when it comes to sixth and seventh, where you start thinking about change, it becomes a different issue.

[02:03:26.812 – 02:03:35.412] And I worked with this dude for nine years, and I listened to more fifth steps than I had patience to endure. [02:03:35.412 – 02:03:45.432] And, and never saw one ounce of any effort at re- at recovery, you know, at trying to do anything [02:03:45.432 – 02:03:45.872] about it. [02:03:45.872 – 02:03:49.952] And he came to me one day, I'd been beating on him about amends. [02:03:49.952 – 02:03:54.512] Came to me one day, he said, "Man, you're gonna be proud of me." I said, "Thank God. [02:03:54.512 – 02:04:02.852] What happened?" And he said, he said, "I made some amends." Well, I knew every amend he owed from all those fifth steps.

[02:04:02.852 – 02:04:08.532] I said, "For God's sakes, tell me what it is." And so he told me it was about something, he jumped on a college. [02:04:08.532 – 02:04:13.052] And, and so I said, "Well, tell me how it came about. [02:04:13.052 – 02:04:20.472] Literally, what happened?" Two policemen, armed, came to his door to get the money. [02:04:20.472 – 02:04:34.392] And he said, "Man, that ain't even close, you know?" And, [02:04:34.392 – 02:04:44.552] uh, and, and he, and he aggravated that with one thing that, uh, you know, I, I try not to be a terribly arbitrary guy and to set up just harsh

[02:04:44.552 – 02:04:50.732] judgments, but there's one thing that I will not sponsor, and that's somebody who jumps newcomers. [02:04:50.732 – 02:05:01.156] I'm just not gonna do it because I honest to God don't know of anything more cruel excuse me- Then taking a wounded newcomer [02:05:01.156 – 02:05:03.556] and depriving them of the right to recovery. [02:05:03.556 – 02:05:05.676] Because I just won't, I won't deal with that. [02:05:05.676 – 02:05:08.926] And so this guy aggravated the case. [02:05:08.926 – 02:05:11.916] I was gonna stop anyway, but that made it a lot easier. [02:05:11.916 – 02:05:14.316] And I stopped sponsoring that guy.

[02:05:14.316 – 02:05:19.516] I gave him several months notice because he's not a handsome beast. [02:05:19.516 – 02:05:21.316] I, I knew he was gonna have a hard time. [02:05:21.316 – 02:05:30.916] I said, "Buddy, you're gonna have to find you somebody." Gave him a date certain, and, uh, on the date certain, he still hadn't found anybody, but I was out of here, you know. [02:05:30.916 – 02:05:31.396] And so… [02:05:31.396 – 02:05:35.816] And now he's eleven years later, he's twenty years sober. [02:05:35.816 – 02:05:45.976] He s- he still calls me once in a while, and he tells me a lot of wonderful stuff, and I pay absolutely no attention to it because none of it has any connection to reality.

[02:05:45.976 – 02:05:53.216] And so I listen to it like the wind blowing, and I'm cordial with him, and I hang up, and, uh, wait for him to call me again. [02:05:53.216 – 02:06:00.976] And, and so sometimes, you know, in, in, in a case like that, that was because I saw the lack of, of, of, of… [02:06:00.976 – 02:06:04.216] You know, the guy just not willing to do the stuff. [02:06:04.216 – 02:06:06.615] And in a case like that, I have no… [02:06:06.615 – 02:06:08.716] I mean, I don't like doing that. [02:06:08.716 – 02:06:18.816] But it was– What I'm doing is perpetuating a myth when I continue to allow sponsorship to be used to describe a relationship.

[02:06:18.816 – 02:06:19.796] That's a myth. [02:06:19.796 – 02:06:21.256] There is no sponsorship. [02:06:21.256 – 02:06:28.275] And so I'm not willing to condone, you know, something where there's nothing going on. [02:06:28.275 – 02:06:38.436] There are other times when, when the, the, the, the relationship just becomes dysfunctional, where people, uh, just won't [02:06:38.436 – 02:06:47.796] follow the agreements and get more and more lax and slack about maintaining contact and maintaining viable dialogue. [02:06:47.796 – 02:06:56.036] And so in a case like that, uh, wh-when there's no response to repeated warnings, I'll just say, you know, "I think it's gone far enough.

[02:06:56.036 – 02:06:57.576] And I'm not mad at you. [02:06:57.576 – 02:07:05.596] I'll be your friend, but I'm not gonna call it sponsorship." 'Cause I think there is a viable dialogue that has to occur for that to have meaning. [02:07:05.596 – 02:07:09.576] And, and so I– Those kinds of things I put on, on their standards. [02:07:09.576 – 02:07:19.176] But come– Again, Don talked about this a little bit, and then we'll come back on, on the thing about dealing with it in, in the heading of that, uh, medication stuff.

[02:07:19.176 – 02:07:23.236] But that is a big issue, and it's one that is well worth talking about a little bit. [02:07:23.236 – 02:07:28.816] Uh, let me mention one thing about that, that, that geographic thing. [02:07:28.816 – 02:07:36.076] I, I mentioned earlier that, uh, as you get older in the program, finding somebody that fits the criteria becomes a real challenge. [02:07:36.076 – 02:07:45.916] And, uh, you know, when– the last time I needed a s- needed a sponsor when my, my, uh, my, my guy developed Alzheimer's, and I had a little bit of lead time.

[02:07:45.916 – 02:07:51.896] I just started drawing circles about who was in catchment areas. [02:07:51.896 – 02:07:54.956] I hit pay dirt three thousand miles away. [02:07:54.956 – 02:07:59.296] And, uh, I would prefer having somebody in my home group. [02:07:59.296 – 02:08:02.116] But it's a matter of what are you gonna compromise? [02:08:02.116 – 02:08:11.016] And, uh, and so in, in those cases, you know, there, you know, certainly there are times when I sponsor people in many parts of the country. [02:08:11.016 – 02:08:21.096] I make it, I make it a point to avoid people in early recovery, like Don was talking about, because it is tremendously important to have

[02:08:21.096 – 02:08:25.996] immediate access, to have that accountable relationship, the, the tight thing. [02:08:25.996 – 02:08:29.376] I wouldn't begin to take on somebody in early recovery. [02:08:29.376 – 02:08:33.336] But it's one of those things that becomes a necessity. [02:08:33.336 – 02:08:40.116] Like right now, um, my sponsor's probably gonna outlive me, but he may not. [02:08:40.116 – 02:08:45.036] And I already know who my next one will be if I have to. [02:08:45.036 – 02:08:46.056] Now, he doesn't know it. [02:08:46.056 – 02:08:48.376] Nobody knows it. [02:08:48.376 – 02:08:53.736] But I know it because I don't wanna be without one, and it's not called hanging off a cliff.

[02:08:53.736 – 02:08:56.756] It's just a part of what makes me a whole member. [02:08:56.756 – 02:09:01.416] And so when you get to this point, you, you have to think that way. [02:09:01.416 – 02:09:05.876] Uh, otherwise you're gonna be compromising something that's not compromised. [02:09:05.876 – 02:09:12.216] Let me, let me mention one other thing for, for, uh, for, for, uh, for what it's worth. [02:09:12.216 – 02:09:22.676] The thing that Don just described is a, is a, is a wonderful ideal way to, to, to work with somebody going through the program. [02:09:22.676 – 02:09:32.856] Um, for a long time, I was really frustrated with the revolving door at AA, with just

[02:09:32.856 – 02:09:37.676] watching people come through here and not even get touched much and just going back out. [02:09:37.676 – 02:09:43.576] And so I was really hunting for some ways to more effectively grab folk and work with them. [02:09:43.576 – 02:09:45.056] I was looking for anything. [02:09:45.056 – 02:09:47.146] I've done, I've done taking people through- [02:09:47.280 – 02:09:48.420] steps, a lot of ways. [02:09:48.420 – 02:09:51.520] One-on-one, do it in 14 weeks. [02:09:51.520 – 02:09:55.060] You know, d- d- d- just you name it, and I've, I've, I've tried it. [02:09:55.060 – 02:09:57.580] All of them work to some extent. [02:09:57.580 – 02:10:01.460] And then one day, in fact, Don and I were, uh…

[02:10:01.460 – 02:10:08.300] He kept telling me about something he was doing that made sense, but I'm a kind of a visual person. [02:10:08.300 – 02:10:18.400] I said, "Why don't you show me what you're talking about?" And we sat down, literally sat down in the corridor of a hotel and grabbed four or five other, uh, outstanding [02:10:18.400 – 02:10:20.640] alcoholics and pulled them in. [02:10:20.640 – 02:10:24.980] And, and, uh, y- I know you remember. [02:10:24.980 – 02:10:25.610] Of course I remember. [02:10:25.610 – 02:10:35.300] He just opened a book, and he said, "Well, here's what we do," and, uh, opened the book, read a sentence, and I had to break up the meeting because we just got going with the thing.

[02:10:35.300 – 02:10:36.900] It was that simple. [02:10:36.900 – 02:10:46.980] And at, at that point, that made sense to me, you know, that, that you could take a group of people and do what he's talking [02:10:46.980 – 02:10:49.320] about, and you could do it in a group setting. [02:10:49.320 – 02:10:51.140] And so I started… [02:10:51.140 – 02:10:52.900] Uh, he was my mentor then. [02:10:52.900 – 02:10:57.300] And, and so I, I didn't have a clue about what you did other than hotel corridor. [02:10:57.300 – 02:10:58.580] And so when the, when the… [02:10:58.580 – 02:11:03.740] had something I wanted to discuss, I'd get on the phone and say, "Now, what do you know about this?" And he'd tell me, and we'd do it.

[02:11:03.740 – 02:11:06.540] Well, I've been doing that for several years now. [02:11:06.540 – 02:11:08.900] I, I'm not a magic bullet thinker. [02:11:08.900 – 02:11:11.640] I, I know better than that. [02:11:11.640 – 02:11:21.260] But in all the years that we've been doing that, we've never had a single person who's gone through the whole experience who's drunk again. [02:11:21.260 – 02:11:31.260] Now, I'm not a magic bullet guy, but I do believe that it's almost impossible to get drunk if I follow this thing the way it's laid [02:11:31.260 – 02:11:32.600] out and practice it. [02:11:32.600 – 02:11:36.400] Uh, so I think it's a powerful kind of a thing.

[02:11:36.400 – 02:11:38.040] One, one reason it… [02:11:38.040 – 02:11:41.120] uh, two reasons I've just mentioned that I really like about that. [02:11:41.120 – 02:11:46.220] One is that, uh, I'm a pretty heavily committed guy, too. [02:11:46.220 – 02:11:49.070] I've got an awful lot of things that I'm involved in- That's right … [02:11:49.070 – 02:11:50.400] all of which are important. [02:11:50.400 – 02:11:57.920] And, uh, the– so I'd, I'd have to fight for how to deal with the people I want to deal with. [02:11:57.920 – 02:12:04.200] And, and so this group approach really makes something realistic for me that otherwise wouldn't be.

[02:12:04.200 – 02:12:08.820] Uh, I just can't afford the time at this point to do the one-on-one. [02:12:08.820 – 02:12:18.200] And in all honesty, if I had the luxury of time, I would not do it, uh, uh, uh, the one-on-one. [02:12:18.200 – 02:12:19.580] I'd do it in a group. [02:12:19.580 – 02:12:28.440] Because what I find is that the group magnifies the power, and that, that you never know whose experience is gonna be really meaningful. [02:12:28.440 – 02:12:32.280] So periodically, uh, I just finished one lasted a year and a half. [02:12:32.280 – 02:12:40.640] And, uh, and, and, and so I just periodically do it with people I'm sponsoring and others that might wanna join in.

[02:12:40.640 – 02:12:47.160] The last one, a year and a half, we finished with 30 people, and that's just incredible to me. [02:12:47.160 – 02:12:53.500] That, that, uh, that, gee whiz, you couldn't think drunk could stand still that long , you know, much less make that kind of commitment. [02:12:53.500 – 02:12:55.980] So there are a lot of ways to do stuff. [02:12:55.980 – 02:13:01.759] And, and, uh, and I'll always be, be grateful for that one because it, it made a tremendous difference with a lot of people. [02:13:01.759 – 02:13:04.360] Uh, we know- You know who that came from?

[02:13:04.360 – 02:13:05.300] Where? [02:13:05.300 – 02:13:06.360] Max Here. [02:13:06.360 – 02:13:07.700] Oh, yeah. [02:13:07.700 – 02:13:07.980] Yeah. [02:13:07.980 – 02:13:09.700] That's- Who was sponsored by his sponsor. [02:13:09.700 – 02:13:10.240] Yeah. [02:13:10.240 – 02:13:12.620] It's all, it's all here anyway. [02:13:12.620 – 02:13:14.060] A small family. [02:13:14.060 – 02:13:17.260] Le- let's spend just a… [02:13:17.260 – 02:13:18.160] Yeah, go ahead. [02:13:18.160 – 02:13:24.040] Scott, uh, we get inundated with requests for temporary sponsorship. [02:13:24.040 – 02:13:25.300] Uh- Well, what is it? [02:13:25.300 – 02:13:25.540] … [02:13:25.540 – 02:13:27.140] comment on that please. [02:13:27.140 – 02:13:28.880] I'll just make a real brief comment. [02:13:28.880 – 02:13:30.960] I don't dismiss anything. [02:13:30.960 – 02:13:37.320] The, uh, that sponsorship, like Don was saying, covers a multitude of sins. [02:13:37.320 – 02:13:42.400] And it doesn't mean, you know, they're, they're all variations of sponsorship.

[02:13:42.400 – 02:13:47.550] Certainly, the kind we've been talking about, classic sponsorship, where it's that one-on-one with Mr. [02:13:47.550 – 02:13:50.400] Wonderful, is, uh, that's, that's the Cadillac. [02:13:50.400 – 02:13:56.980] But in this day and time, we get an awful lot of people that almost overwhelm the resource. [02:13:56.980 – 02:14:00.340] And so I think temporary sponsorship can serve a purpose. [02:14:00.340 – 02:14:02.460] In our group, we do it. [02:14:02.460 – 02:14:04.280] We make it available. [02:14:04.280 – 02:14:14.320] What we encourage is that we do it for a set period of time, 60 days, and the function during that 60 days is to help the person get prepared to engage in sponsorship, the sooner

[02:14:14.320 – 02:14:14.780] the better. [02:14:14.780 – 02:14:22.580] And at the end of 60 days, it concludes either with, with permanent sponsorship or movement toward that. [02:14:22.580 – 02:14:29.000] And in the course of it, what we do is just the obvious stuff, to show them how to get to meetings, give them access to somebody they can comfortably call. [02:14:29.000 – 02:14:31.300] So I, I think there's utility for it. [02:14:31.300 – 02:14:37.500] Let me, let me just mention a couple of things, uh, uh, that, uh… [02:14:37.500 – 02:14:47.960] Well, one, if you, if you really wanna get a hold of some information that I think is sound and solid from the professional

[02:14:47.960 – 02:14:56.920] field but fits an AA perspective, there's a guy by the name of Stanley Gitlow, G-I-T-L-O-W. [02:14:56.920 – 02:15:00.740] And, uh, he's an internist from New York. [02:15:00.740 – 02:15:05.240] And Ross, uh, probably, I don't, I don't know if he has some tapes by him. [02:15:05.240 – 02:15:07.780] He has a number of tapes that are out. [02:15:07.780 – 02:15:09.100] Stanley Gitlow. [02:15:09.100 – 02:15:10.100] Do you have anything by him? [02:15:10.100 – 02:15:16.800] Um, if you, if you know how to get in touch with DyCoby, he can tell you how to get in touch with DyCoby.

[02:15:16.800 – 02:15:18.220] They've got Gitlow tapes. [02:15:18.220 – 02:15:28.320] And, uh, this guy does as fine a job as anybody I've ever seen of, of, of discerning that thing Don was talking about, [02:15:28.320 – 02:15:32.280] about the sort of the, the false diagnosis stuff. [02:15:32.280 – 02:15:40.140] He, he– one of, one thing he says in, uh, his talk about that is that he will not make a secondary diagnosis. [02:15:40.140 – 02:15:46.000] You know, like it's so common now when somebody goes to treatment, they get a, a barrel full of diagnoses when they walk in.

[02:15:46.000 – 02:15:51.820] He says he wouldn't even consider a second diagnosis until two years of sobriety. [02:15:51.820 – 02:16:02.028] Because the false effects of, of, of, of, of what's happening are so misleading that you get these diagnoses that a guy has to live with for a long time. [02:16:02.028 – 02:16:06.688] So Get Low is a, a really good source if you want some outside objective information. [02:16:06.688 – 02:16:10.288] Best I've seen, uh, from an AA standpoint. [02:16:10.288 – 02:16:15.928] Uh, the other thing that, that to me is awfully important is for us to remember who we are.

[02:16:15.928 – 02:16:22.228] And, and there is a lot of tricky ground in this whole business of dealing with folks with medication. [02:16:22.228 – 02:16:32.288] Um, and it's, and it's, it's just as Don said, it can be tremendously dangerous to start yanking around something in a area [02:16:32.288 – 02:16:36.148] where it may be life-threatening, uh, to, to a person. [02:16:36.148 – 02:16:39.188] I think it's awfully important to remember who we are. [02:16:39.188 – 02:16:46.268] Um, if, if two things that I would point out that are, that are kind of important for me to think about.

[02:16:46.268 – 02:16:56.647] When I'm working with somebody, I wanna know, or, uh, from my just layman's standpoint, about the funct- the, the level of disability. [02:16:56.647 – 02:17:02.708] You know, if I'm working with somebody, what I wanna see is whether they can actually track what we're doing. [02:17:02.708 – 02:17:07.088] And if they can't track what I'm do- what we're doing, what's the point? [02:17:07.088 – 02:17:17.088] And if you, if you were there last night at the meeting and I told that kind of wild story, very true story, about the guy who came in and was so

[02:17:17.088 – 02:17:21.028] wild and, and, and, and nervous and, and I put him to painting. [02:17:21.028 – 02:17:22.428] To painting the wall. [02:17:22.428 – 02:17:30.048] Because if I had tried to talk with that guy or sit him down and get into any kind of stuff, what a waste of time. [02:17:30.048 – 02:17:40.188] Uh, so I started with him where he was and let him work out his sort of, sort of wild and crazy gyrations, and then he settled [02:17:40.188 – 02:17:42.948] in and became a solid AA member. [02:17:42.948 – 02:17:45.128] 25 years later, the guy's still sober.

[02:17:45.128 – 02:17:50.748] So it doesn't mean that he was a hopeless case just because he came in zonked out of his mind. [02:17:50.748 – 02:17:55.808] You know, sort of helping him work through that thing, get rid of that, and then he could go to work. [02:17:55.808 – 02:17:59.928] Um, and I, I think that's kind of important to keep in mind. [02:17:59.928 – 02:18:07.188] If somebody is clearly out to lunch, uh, I need to wait till there's somebody home before I start beating on the door, you know? [02:18:07.188 – 02:18:11.448] So, now that's just plain old common sense.

[02:18:11.448 – 02:18:15.128] And, and the other thing is how to deal with it. [02:18:15.128 – 02:18:25.388] What I do with my guys that I'm working with when I know that they've got a, a medica- a prescribed medication, I set up a deal [02:18:25.388 – 02:18:30.908] with them to negotiate with their doc about how to come off of it, if they can. [02:18:30.908 – 02:18:32.748] Some people can't. [02:18:32.748 – 02:18:36.528] But if they can, that's between the patient and the doc. [02:18:36.528 – 02:18:42.028] And if I start messing around in it, what I'll do is mess it up big time.

[02:18:42.028 – 02:18:45.348] And it's extremely, extremely dangerous ground. [02:18:45.348 – 02:18:47.888] Uh, the, I, there's, I… [02:18:47.888 – 02:18:58.028] One reason I think that's such an important issue, there are places, like he's talking about, we get around a little bit, and there are places in this country [02:18:58.028 – 02:19:07.948] where there's a kind of local ethic in place that if somebody's on medication, the sponsor tells them that they have to get a new sobriety date. [02:19:07.948 – 02:19:13.848] Well, that may not be mandating what to do about the thing, but think what pressure that puts on somebody.

[02:19:13.848 – 02:19:14.498] Yeah. [02:19:14.498 – 02:19:20.588] If you got somebody that's hanging on by an eyelash and you give them something like that, that's a dangerous place to be. [02:19:20.588 – 02:19:28.388] And I think there's some real, real reason for concern, some real reason for being realistic about who we are. [02:19:28.388 – 02:19:38.628] We're fellow alcoholics, and what we can help somebody do better than anybody in the world is to find recovery when they're in shape to be able to engage in the process. [02:19:38.628 – 02:19:48.268] And, and sometimes we have to step back and let them get through with whatever critical care they're, they're undergoing before we can really start working with them.

[02:19:48.268 – 02:19:58.728] Doesn't mean that we can't, you know, do the best we can with them, but we just don't need to start trying to get down to some nitty-gritty work and doing, uh, [02:19:58.728 – 02:19:59.968] four steps and all that. [02:19:59.968 – 02:20:01.688] You know, you gotta, gotta wait a while for that. [02:20:01.688 – 02:20:07.707] So it, it is a, a tremendously, tremendously important area that can, uh… [02:20:07.707 – 02:20:17.748] I have, I have personally, uh, didn't observe a suicide, but I have personally, uh, been associated with cases where this kind of

[02:20:17.748 – 02:20:25.108] stuff got out of hand and there were actual suicides because of some kind of a sloppy intrusion in something where we had no business. [02:20:25.108 – 02:20:28.748] So it, it's not, it's not nickel and dime stuff. [02:20:28.748 – 02:20:33.248] It's, it, it, it's about people's lives, and I think we have to take it very seriously. [02:20:33.248 – 02:20:35.348] Uh- [02:20:37.582 – 02:20:43.162] You know, what he was talking about was that thing of getting ready to engage in life, and he gave a lot of examples of how to do it.

[02:20:43.162 – 02:20:53.282] And I'd, I'd like to kind of focus around the last three steps of the program, and particularly in terms of, of how that, [02:20:53.282 – 02:20:56.762] how that gets us into the business of living. [02:20:56.762 – 02:21:00.462] As, you know, some people refer to those steps as maintenance steps. [02:21:00.462 – 02:21:10.642] I don't, uh, because I think they are tremendous action steps that spell out a, a real, uh, route and a direction for, uh, for putting the program into, [02:21:10.642 – 02:21:12.162] into maximum use. [02:21:12.162 – 02:21:21.082] And, uh, uh, let me just stick one little thought in your mind to, to, uh, to, to, to, to worry around a little bit.

[02:21:21.082 – 02:21:31.082] We used it last night in the, in the, in the discussion we had at, at, at that meeting after the meeting, and, uh, it, it sort of has some meaning [02:21:31.082 – 02:21:33.382] for me, and it's, it's about… [02:21:33.382 – 02:21:43.501] Some people would call it thinking out of the box, but, but I like to think of, of, of the i- the, the idea as thinking beyond the circle of my [02:21:43.502 – 02:21:47.852] personal magic, of thinking beyond the circle of, of, of… [02:21:47.852 – 02:21:57.902] You know, so often we look at things in terms of what I believe, what I feel, what I do, how I work with somebody, and, and if we're gonna really

[02:21:57.902 – 02:22:07.902] be effective in, in trying to, to be of maximum service to God and those around us, you know, I believe that we have to get beyond that circle of personal [02:22:07.902 – 02:22:18.442] magic, of just what I personally do, and start seeing how the fellowship as a whole, the group as a whole are, are part and parcel [02:22:18.442 – 02:22:21.142] of, of what my effectiveness will be about. [02:22:21.142 – 02:22:31.362] If I think of it only in terms of what I personally do, it'll be an extremely limited thing, and so I have to find ways to get locked in and married

[02:22:31.362 – 02:22:36.482] in to, uh, the things that make that effectiveness grow. [02:22:36.482 – 02:22:40.562] And so those, just keep that in mind a, a little bit as we're going along. [02:22:40.562 – 02:22:43.362] And I'm not sure exactly how this is spelled out. [02:22:43.362 – 02:22:45.442] I don't have it, have it written up. [02:22:45.442 – 02:22:54.682] But, uh, I wanna get into some, some, some, some tangible issues that have to do with, with making that stuff happen. [02:22:54.682 – 02:23:00.582] Um, you know, I like, I like to, uh, just kind of hit the steps, and then we'll get, get in it.

[02:23:00.582 – 02:23:07.882] The, uh, t- the tenth step to me is, uh, it does a number of things. [02:23:07.882 – 02:23:18.202] Uh, one, I think that one, one of the basic functions of the tenth step is slip prevention, and the, the, it, it has a way of, of, of assuring that I'm on solid [02:23:18.202 – 02:23:28.222] ground, doing what I'm supposed to do so that I stay constantly aware of what's happening and don't let those, those, those things start cropping up that rob [02:23:28.222 – 02:23:31.482] me of my sobriety, of my peace of mind, and my wellbeing.

[02:23:31.482 – 02:23:34.922] Uh, so it has a very practical value in that. [02:23:34.922 – 02:23:45.542] To me, it also has a, a, a tremendous value in terms of, of taking a look at how I'm plugging this way of life [02:23:45.542 – 02:23:47.202] into being a way of life. [02:23:47.202 – 02:23:57.742] Uh, like, what, what I do at, at a practical level is I, I, when I review, normally at the end of a day, I, [02:23:57.742 – 02:24:07.782] I review what that day's been and, and, you know, the, the, the emphasis is looking for places where we were wrong and where we've got some stuff that we need to

[02:24:07.782 – 02:24:08.382] straighten out. [02:24:08.382 – 02:24:16.462] But I think written into that very heavily is the, uh, the notion of taking stock of what was right as well. [02:24:16.462 – 02:24:26.562] And, and so today, when, when I, when I do that at the end of my day, it's a rare day when I am not absolutely [02:24:26.562 – 02:24:35.162] overwhelmed with the, the tremendous things that have happened in my life, uh, just by practicing the principles. [02:24:35.162 – 02:24:45.202] And, uh, my buddy Steve back there is probably as much a past master at doing what I'm talking about as anybody I know, and it's

[02:24:45.202 – 02:24:50.822] just simply loosening up and trying to add a little something to the people around us. [02:24:50.822 – 02:24:59.822] You know, Don was, Don was talking about it a little bit, that, that when I'm focused on doing things for other people, mine is a given. [02:24:59.822 – 02:25:02.122] You know, that I absolutely can't give. [02:25:02.122 – 02:25:04.182] I can't give more than I get. [02:25:04.182 – 02:25:09.902] Let, let me tell you just a couple of things of, of, of what I'm talking about, and, and this is daily stuff.

[02:25:09.902 – 02:25:11.482] I mean, this is not once in a while. [02:25:11.482 – 02:25:20.282] This is daily stuff that comes from just simply being free to be responsive to opportunity to be of service. [02:25:20.282 – 02:25:30.722] I, I start my day, normally, I, I don't have a rote prayer, but I basically start my day by asking God to help me go through the day [02:25:30.722 – 02:25:34.582] in a way that would, would seem worthy of the gift I've been given. [02:25:34.582 – 02:25:37.442] That tells me at what kind of an attitude I want to have.

[02:25:37.442 – 02:25:47.542] And then very importantly, to be sensitive to opportunities to be of service, because, my God, they're everywhere, but often I don't see [02:25:47.542 – 02:25:47.722] them. [02:25:47.722 – 02:25:50.942] You know, I don't look at them, or if I see them, I don't acknowledge them. [02:25:50.942 – 02:25:56.522] And so what I want to do is be sensitive to op- to opportunities to be of service. [02:25:56.522 – 02:25:59.862] And, and they're everywhere. [02:25:59.862 – 02:26:07.592] And, like, I'd, I'd tell you one thing that I, I ran into that, um, uh, just a couple of examples.

[02:26:07.592 – 02:26:10.162] There, there was a place where I used… [02:26:10.162 – 02:26:20.062] When I was working, I'm unemployed now, but when I was working and before I started loafing, I used to go for lunch. [02:26:20.062 – 02:26:23.322] I either go full bore or not at all. [02:26:23.322 – 02:26:23.882] Yeah. [02:26:23.882 – 02:26:33.942] And once in a while, I would slip next door to another office building and get some emergency rations, you know, just some little grilled cheese sandwich or something, just [02:26:33.942 – 02:26:35.462] to sort of keep the wolf out. [02:26:35.462 – 02:26:45.498] And one day, I went over there and went into the, to, to the place, and There was a little, little mousy girl that

[02:26:45.498 – 02:26:50.358] was working, and she looked like she had been beaten by every weapon known to man. [02:26:50.358 – 02:26:54.438] I mean, she, she just was a, a beat up, disheveled little old gal. [02:26:54.438 – 02:27:00.958] And, uh, uh, she needed somebody just to sort of lift it up a little bit. [02:27:00.958 – 02:27:01.938] I was there. [02:27:01.938 – 02:27:03.198] I figured I'd do it. [02:27:03.198 – 02:27:05.438] And so I just started messing with her a little bit. [02:27:05.438 – 02:27:09.918] You know, just, just, just playing a little bit about stuff, and it's just …

[02:27:09.918 – 02:27:10.578] I don't know what. [02:27:10.578 – 02:27:11.478] Didn't matter what. [02:27:11.478 – 02:27:17.158] Just any human interaction was good news to her because it didn't look like she'd had any for a, a good while. [02:27:17.158 – 02:27:27.538] And so we started doing a thing and, uh, and she said, "Well, what do you want?" I said, "A tuna sandwich." A- [02:27:27.538 – 02:27:29.178] and I like tuna pretty good. [02:27:29.178 – 02:27:36.278] And it's a good thing because when she fixed that tuna sandwich, I mean, that sucker was running off the plate. [02:27:36.278 – 02:27:39.148] I had tuna on me, on everything.

[02:27:39.148 – 02:27:40.018] Everybody around me. [02:27:40.018 – 02:27:43.298] I mean, she just got carried away with that thing. [02:27:43.298 – 02:27:47.898] And, uh, but I mean, that was her way of responding, you know? [02:27:47.898 – 02:27:51.558] Now, I'm not looking for, well, an overdose of tuna. [02:27:51.558 – 02:27:55.218] I'm just trying, trying to help a little, little gal out. [02:27:55.218 – 02:27:59.097] But, you know, the point is that you can't give away more than you get. [02:27:59.097 – 02:28:06.598] And, uh, about six months later, I went back over there for another dose of … [02:28:06.598 – 02:28:08.578] She was still there.

[02:28:08.578 – 02:28:16.558] And when I walked in the door, you'd have thought that the guy from the $10 million sweepstakes walked in, 'cause she still starts grinning. [02:28:16.558 – 02:28:24.258] And she grabs that bread and starts- I wanted a ham sandwich. [02:28:24.258 – 02:28:30.608] I didn't- But, and that's what happens, you know? [02:28:30.608 – 02:28:40.798] That, that if, if I just turn loose and, and, and sort of engage in the business of living and try to be of service, just lighten it up for somebody, you know, whoever it is,

[02:28:40.798 – 02:28:42.218] amazing what happens. [02:28:42.218 – 02:28:43.588] Amazing what happens. [02:28:43.588 – 02:28:44.088] Sure. [02:28:44.088 – 02:28:49.138] That what happen- what happens is that the world I live in becomes a different place. [02:28:49.138 – 02:28:58.138] If I let myself do it, I could start being anxious about the world I live in because I live in the same world everybody lives in. [02:28:58.138 – 02:29:04.138] And mo- uh, most people tend to sense a real hostility and a lack of civility. [02:29:04.138 – 02:29:05.598] Now, I know it's there. [02:29:05.598 – 02:29:11.598] And once in a while, I'll run into a jerk, but I got enough sense to get away from them.

[02:29:11.598 – 02:29:20.918] And most of the time, what I run into is incredibly good folks who respond well to decent treatment. [02:29:20.918 – 02:29:23.338] Um, like I … [02:29:23.338 – 02:29:29.358] Like Don, I, I spend a lot of time in airports, and I don't like it one bit. [02:29:29.358 – 02:29:33.497] Uh, the fun went out of flying for me a little over 30 years ago. [02:29:33.497 – 02:29:37.818] And so I have absolutely no joy in, in that activity. [02:29:37.818 – 02:29:46.198] And, and since the stuff has happened and, and, and that, that security nightmare started to happen, I enjoy it even less.

[02:29:46.198 – 02:29:48.838] And, and so it's not a pleasant thing. [02:29:48.838 – 02:29:59.098] I, I know the first weekend after, after the, the, uh, the New York thing, I went to the airport prepared for the worst, and I wasn't prepared [02:29:59.098 – 02:30:01.238] enough because it was worse than I expected. [02:30:01.238 – 02:30:05.218] And so went in there, and it was just pure bedlam. [02:30:05.218 – 02:30:08.638] I, I mean, it took an hour to get in the terminal, never mind on the plane. [02:30:08.638 – 02:30:13.238] And, um, when I was in line, I was watching a, a little gal …

[02:30:13.238 – 02:30:16.838] Well, little gal is not the right term, but she was a lady. [02:30:16.838 – 02:30:18.378] And, and she … [02:30:18.378 – 02:30:21.958] If you thought we had trouble, you should have seen what she was doing. [02:30:21.958 – 02:30:28.498] This gal was having to handle every passenger who were routinely disgruntled. [02:30:28.498 – 02:30:32.478] They're already mad about being sh- marched around with an Uzi. [02:30:32.478 – 02:30:42.518] And she had to not only handle the people, then she had to take the suitcase and carry it, or cases, and carry it [02:30:42.518 – 02:30:48.598] a considerable distance and search the thing, then search the people while there's somebody else getting mad at the counter.

[02:30:48.598 – 02:30:52.678] And this girl was sweating, I mean, big time. [02:30:52.678 – 02:31:02.738] And so I got up to her and I said, "My God, girl, you look like you're not having a whole lot of fun with this thing." I said, "Why don't you work on till quitting time and [02:31:02.738 – 02:31:08.887] take the rest of the day off?" And she, she, she said, "You bet I will." "And I ain't gonna be here tomorrow either. [02:31:08.887 – 02:31:10.778] I'm going on vacation." I said, "You go, girl.

[02:31:10.778 – 02:31:16.978] That's exactly what you ought to do." Well, I mean, I'm just messing around with her, you know? [02:31:16.978 – 02:31:20.778] And, uh, so we get through with that unt- if … [02:31:20.778 – 02:31:22.878] She finally met somebody that wasn't mad. [02:31:22.878 – 02:31:24.968] And, and so we just had a nice little [02:31:25.084 – 02:31:29.464] That deal there, and, and she's, and I, and I started walking away, and she called out to me. [02:31:29.464 – 02:31:30.404] She said, "Hey, wait a minute. [02:31:30.404 – 02:31:32.784] Come back here." And I went back. [02:31:32.784 – 02:31:36.044] Now, I'm talking about a nuthouse scene.

[02:31:36.044 – 02:31:38.784] She kicked me to first class. [02:31:38.784 – 02:31:40.404] Oh. [02:31:40.404 – 02:31:41.784] Most people couldn't even get on the plane. [02:31:41.784 – 02:31:49.684] But she c- Now, I can just imagine whoever this New York businessman was that said, "We're full in first class. [02:31:49.684 – 02:31:54.544] You gotta move to coach." I didn't look for him, uh, at all. [02:31:54.544 – 02:31:59.534] But, but you see what I'm talking about? [02:31:59.534 – 02:32:01.224] And that's not manipulation. [02:32:01.224 – 02:32:11.244] It's just what happens when I do things that, for no real reason other than to just practice these principles in the way

[02:32:11.244 – 02:32:11.763] I live. [02:32:11.763 – 02:32:14.564] And, and what a difference it makes. [02:32:14.564 – 02:32:24.584] Uh, that it's not just squishy kind of stuff for waiting for a mystical thing to happen, that if I put it in place, my God, what a difference it makes in [02:32:24.584 – 02:32:25.504] the way I live. [02:32:25.504 – 02:32:29.403] And I don't know about you, but that's the kind of world I want to live in. [02:32:29.403 – 02:32:36.784] I don't want to live in a world that's, that's full of anger and, and distance and coldness.

[02:32:36.784 – 02:32:45.724] I want to live in a place where there's a good, warm kind of working relationship with people, and that's what I find everywhere I go. [02:32:45.724 – 02:32:53.464] You know, people tell me that every city I go in is the worst one in the country, but I swear to God, I can't find out why. [02:32:53.464 – 02:33:03.474] You know, people tell me California, you're just at high risk to even get off the plane, and I have never had anything but cordial, helpful interaction

[02:33:03.474 – 02:33:03.984] with people. [02:33:03.984 – 02:33:05.784] Uh, amazing. [02:33:05.784 – 02:33:13.924] And the only difference, you know, I'm the same guy who used to, to have antagonistic relationships with everybody. [02:33:13.924 – 02:33:23.984] And so that simple thing of it is not just the, the tenth step, that, that, you know, we, we talk about these steps being connected. [02:33:23.984 – 02:33:27.344] It's kind of like I mentioned yesterday, this whole process is connected. [02:33:27.344 – 02:33:31.164] They're not isolated activities that we do mechanically. [02:33:31.164 – 02:33:39.164] It's a way of life that if practiced as a way of life, changes the quality of that life.

[02:33:39.164 – 02:33:49.624] And, and, and, and so tenth step is just a way of, of putting it in place and reviewing whether it's happening or not and, and it's enormously [02:33:49.624 – 02:33:53.103] gratifying to me to, to, um, to, to be able to see that. [02:33:53.103 – 02:34:03.124] You know, what, what, what I have to recognize is that the way I live my life is the most important message I'll ever deliver to anybody. [02:34:03.124 – 02:34:05.424] It's not wisdom. [02:34:05.424 – 02:34:08.364] It's not a whole bunch of knowledge about stuff.

[02:34:08.364 – 02:34:10.604] It's the way that I live my life. [02:34:10.604 – 02:34:21.904] It's amazing how much, uh, uh, you know, certainly as you get older in the program, it's amazing how much people watch what you do, uh, [02:34:21.904 – 02:34:23.884] 'cause that's how they evaluate you. [02:34:23.884 – 02:34:31.504] I, I, I was at an assembly a while back and, um, we were voting on something, and it's voting. [02:34:31.504 – 02:34:33.864] And Jesus, if you've ever been to assembly, you know this. [02:34:33.864 – 02:34:36.804] It's, it's about like making sausage. [02:34:36.804 – 02:34:39.964] It's, it is not a, a pretty process.

[02:34:39.964 – 02:34:44.984] And, and we just have an amazing faculty to take an issue and gum it to death. [02:34:44.984 – 02:34:46.464] I mean, we'll debate it forever. [02:34:46.464 – 02:34:50.324] So we were voting on this goofy issue. [02:34:50.324 – 02:34:53.324] And I didn't agree with it. [02:34:53.324 – 02:34:57.424] I, I thought it was dumb, well-intended, but anyway. [02:34:57.424 – 02:35:01.084] So I was voting against it for about the fourth time. [02:35:01.084 – 02:35:10.244] And then I did some math, and I said, "Shoot, this thing ain't going nowhere, but I'm gonna get it off the floor if I can." So the next time it came up, I voted for it.

[02:35:10.244 – 02:35:12.744] Well, I didn't think anybody was gonna pay attention to that. [02:35:12.744 – 02:35:21.064] I bet you I had at least six or eight people come to me, "Why'd you change your vote?" And, "I got tired of messing with the dumb thing. [02:35:21.064 – 02:35:29.064] That's why." But people watch that, and so the way I live my life is a tremendous amount of what I'm about. [02:35:29.064 – 02:35:34.004] You know, like, I'm kind of careful about where I hang out. [02:35:34.004 – 02:35:39.804] Uh, my, uh, uh, uh, my wife's not an alcoholic and, and she doesn't do much drinking.

[02:35:39.804 – 02:35:41.364] She's given up on that. [02:35:41.364 – 02:35:49.063] But we'll have company sometimes and, and, and she likes to have some booze for some of her wealthy relatives from up in Canada. [02:35:49.063 – 02:35:52.864] And, uh, she wants me to go get it. [02:35:52.864 – 02:35:59.294] Well, I'm an obedient husband, you know, so I go over there. [02:35:59.294 – 02:36:03.384] And, and I swear to God, every time, now I'm grown. [02:36:03.384 – 02:36:05.984] You know, I haven't been carded for a long, long time. [02:36:05.984 – 02:36:12.493] But, but every time I walk into the ABC Store, I want to sort of put a bag over my head or something.

[02:36:12.493 – 02:36:22.724] Because, uh, my thought is, suppose some guy that I just had in a newcomer group last night [02:36:22.724 – 02:36:27.664] watches me going in, says, "Oh, I see how this works." Yeah. [02:36:27.664 – 02:36:32.054] "You don't drink on Tuesday, but on Wednesday you come down here to load up," you know? [02:36:32.054 – 02:36:35.864] I doubt that very many are gonna say, "Oh, I understand. [02:36:35.864 – 02:36:37.804] His wife sent him on a mission." Yeah. [02:36:37.804 – 02:36:48.344] You know, the, the way I live, you know, I'm free to do whatever I want to, but I'm responsible to do things that will be attractive

[02:36:48.344 – 02:36:50.424] to folks if I want to be effective. [02:36:50.424 – 02:37:01.124] And so how I live my life is a critically important thing i-in, in terms of, of, of that thing we were talking about on, on how to be effective and also [02:37:01.124 – 02:37:04.964] how to get the real rewards that come in, in Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:37:04.964 – 02:37:14.984] Um, the– We'll go through this kind of quick like, but the, um, 11th, 11th, a, a [02:37:14.984 – 02:37:25.124] lot of time, and when I first started looking at, at, uh, at, uh, at 11, I really thought of it as a go stare at your navel step, you know, where you go

[02:37:25.124 – 02:37:29.364] off and find some secluded place and think great thoughts and, and all of that. [02:37:29.364 – 02:37:31.364] And certainly there's a place for that. [02:37:31.364 – 02:37:38.396] You know, there, there, there, there's truly a place for feeding the soul, you know, for, for just quietly finding a place. [02:37:38.396 – 02:37:46.396] Like, I, I've, um, I'm a guy that loves water, and, uh, I don't like to get in it all that much, but I just like to be around it. [02:37:46.396 – 02:37:53.436] And there's nothing to me more, more restful or, uh, soothing than to get around moving water.

[02:37:53.436 – 02:37:56.776] You know, I just love kind of getting rapids and stuff like that, and waterfalls. [02:37:56.776 – 02:38:04.836] And, uh, I wanted a pond for a number of years and, uh, thought about building it, but I'm not smart enough. [02:38:04.836 – 02:38:08.076] And so I finally wound up getting somebody to… [02:38:08.076 – 02:38:16.936] I wanted it, but I didn't want to take that money, and so I gave it to my wife for her 33rd ann- wedding anniversary. [02:38:16.936 – 02:38:22.876] And, uh, thought I was being real slick. [02:38:22.876 – 02:38:33.056] And, uh, you know, I'd been talking to her for 10 years about how much I wanted that thing, and so I said, "It's yours." She's

[02:38:33.056 – 02:38:34.516] starting to like it a little bit. [02:38:34.516 – 02:38:34.716] I… [02:38:34.716 – 02:38:41.256] But, yeah, that was, that was something I really wanted. [02:38:41.256 – 02:38:48.116] And, and so my morning deal n-now, where I do a lot of the, the meditation and stuff like that, I sit out by that pond. [02:38:48.116 – 02:38:52.976] You know, Beast and I sit out there and have my coffee and, and read the paper and stuff like that. [02:38:52.976 – 02:38:54.136] So I like that. [02:38:54.136 – 02:38:58.836] You know, there's a great place for just sort of getting spiritually prepared to do stuff.

[02:38:58.836 – 02:39:09.736] But when I look at 11, I find it, uh, now to be one of the most powerful action steps in the program, if [02:39:09.736 – 02:39:14.336] I'm really wanting to let this program become the guide for my way of life. [02:39:14.336 – 02:39:18.826] Because what it says is that, that, that there are a couple components there. [02:39:18.826 – 02:39:25.696] One, certainly, is to sit by the pond and think heavy thoughts and to get spiritually connected and to improve that relationship. [02:39:25.696 – 02:39:28.736] Very, very important, but for what purpose?

[02:39:28.736 – 02:39:37.896] And, and, and, and right in the middle of that step it says, "Praying only for knowledge of His will," when I'm, when I'm seeking through prayer and meditation. [02:39:37.896 – 02:39:47.136] "Praying only for knowledge of His will for me and the power to carry that out," and therein lies my purpose. [02:39:47.136 – 02:39:54.536] Now, I don't think it comes in just one fell swoop of saying, "Okay, you're supposed to go do a workshop in Virginia." I don't think it happens like that.

[02:39:54.536 – 02:40:00.656] But it does open me up to being willing to serve. [02:40:00.656 – 02:40:10.716] And, and, and so that step, to me, becomes a powerful thing where I am now willing, now that I'm able, you know, now that I've gotten rid of the [02:40:10.716 – 02:40:20.876] baggage, now that I've gotten open to being of service, I think this is where it starts to formulate a p- plan of action, and that I'm responsive [02:40:20.876 – 02:40:27.676] to the things that come along, that I want to know the knowledge of God's will for me and the power to carry that out.

[02:40:27.676 – 02:40:30.896] And, and my God, does it ever happen. [02:40:30.896 – 02:40:32.136] Does it ever happen. [02:40:32.136 – 02:40:34.096] The minute I become willing. [02:40:34.096 – 02:40:44.236] And, and from the time that I became willing, it's, it's been a, a long, long time since I've had an empty agenda. [02:40:44.236 – 02:40:47.076] I mean a long, long time. [02:40:47.076 – 02:40:55.456] Uh, I've been doing stuff like, like we're doing here, I don't mean workshops, but stuff here for 40 years. [02:40:55.456 – 02:40:57.416] For 40 years I've been doing this. [02:40:57.416 – 02:41:07.436] And, um, first, somebody reminded me yesterday, the first conference I ever spoke at was a Virginia State Convention in, uh, '62

[02:41:07.436 – 02:41:10.456] at a Quality Inn on Highway 64. [02:41:10.456 – 02:41:18.586] Not that I remember or can count, but in 1962 at, uh, at, uh, over by, what do you call it? [02:41:18.586 – 02:41:19.756] Norfolk. [02:41:19.756 – 02:41:20.296] At Norfolk. [02:41:20.296 – 02:41:27.716] And from that time to this, you know, I've done a lot of this kind of thing and a lot of stuff in AA beyond. [02:41:27.716 – 02:41:37.716] I've made it a practice, and, and, and Don said it this morning, that I never say no, never say no to a genuine

[02:41:37.716 – 02:41:38.896] request for service. [02:41:38.896 – 02:41:49.396] The way I look at it, these steps help me to get a new manager b- in my life, and if I'm gonna be the guy who's the resident [02:41:49.396 – 02:41:59.736] critic of, of, of what the, the directions are to come, what the opportunities to come, if I'm gonna pick and choose on the basis of, of what I think [02:41:59.736 – 02:42:03.536] fits me best, I'm contradicting the whole process. [02:42:03.536 – 02:42:06.756] So I've made it a practice of, of, of never saying no.

[02:42:06.756 – 02:42:13.656] And it, yeah, it's, it's a phenomenal thing in a way, this stuff of, you know, getting on airplanes and doing, doing things. [02:42:14.552 – 02:42:23.232] In 40 years, I have never had to miss one single co- commitment except one, except one. [02:42:23.232 – 02:42:33.532] And, uh, I, I, I'm, I'm not mystical about stuff, but I was, I was out in Tennessee and, and, and I was doing a little traditions thing at a, at an assembly. [02:42:33.532 – 02:42:42.932] And in the course of it, someone brought it up, and I mentioned that I had never missed a commitment, and never had to because of illness, weather, broke planes or anything.

[02:42:42.932 – 02:42:44.432] It's always worked out. [02:42:44.432 – 02:42:55.712] And, uh, I said, "Gee whiz, I ought not to have said that because I bet I'll have to miss the next one." Well, well, next week, I'm supposed to go to Florida, and [02:42:55.712 – 02:42:58.152] we had two feet of snow in North Carolina. [02:42:58.152 – 02:43:01.531] We don't get two feet of snow in North Carolina. [02:43:01.531 – 02:43:05.152] And when we do, we sure don't know what to do with it. [02:43:05.152 – 02:43:10.432] There was absolutely nothing moving in North Carolina. [02:43:10.432 – 02:43:12.472] I couldn't get out of my driveway for three days.

[02:43:12.472 – 02:43:18.732] And, uh, I, I'm, I, I, I, that really was an important lesson for me in that thing. [02:43:18.732 – 02:43:22.672] I, I was on the phone with the guy that was my contact in Florida. [02:43:22.672 – 02:43:26.152] It was about like the death watch from, to go, waiting on a call from the governor. [02:43:26.152 – 02:43:27.472] And I'm calling down there. [02:43:27.472 – 02:43:31.252] I said, "I'm trying Amtrak," and then a little later called back, "Didn't work. [02:43:31.252 – 02:43:34.992] We're gonna try this." Well, I tried everything, and nothing was there.

[02:43:34.992 – 02:43:37.392] Finally accepted the fact that I wasn't going. [02:43:37.392 – 02:43:44.332] So I called him up like I'm delivering the fact, I'm sorry, man, we're gonna have to unplug the life support. [02:43:44.332 – 02:43:50.092] And man, I'm, I'm just not gonna be able to do it. [02:43:50.092 – 02:43:51.972] There's nothing smoking getting out of here. [02:43:51.972 – 02:43:59.932] And, uh, he said, "Oh, what the hell?" I thought that was absolutely perfect. [02:43:59.932 – 02:44:01.152] It was absolutely perfect. [02:44:01.152 – 02:44:06.012] It was totally appropriate that I was highly concerned about that. [02:44:06.012 – 02:44:11.651] It was even more appropriate that it didn't make that much difference.

[02:44:11.651 – 02:44:13.072] It didn't make much difference to them. [02:44:13.072 – 02:44:16.112] In fact, he told me later they already had another speaker already lined up. [02:44:16.112 – 02:44:17.272] They knew I wasn't coming. [02:44:17.272 – 02:44:21.632] But they let me go through all of that stuff to do what I was doing. [02:44:21.632 – 02:44:31.972] So that to me is the way, you know, I like to look at how I want to, I want to be available to carry out God's plans [02:44:31.972 – 02:44:38.372] for me, so that when I find out what's God's will, I don't get in the way of it.

[02:44:38.372 – 02:44:48.542] I mentioned yesterday about paying attention to hunches, and when I get a hunch about something, I have to take it pretty seriously because it normally has [02:44:48.542 – 02:44:49.532] some real weight to it. [02:44:49.532 – 02:44:55.452] And so being available to service, being available for God's plan, my belief is this. [02:44:55.452 – 02:44:56.472] It, it's just mine. [02:44:56.472 – 02:44:57.551] It doesn't make it right. [02:44:57.551 – 02:45:07.812] But my belief is that for every one of us who goes through this program of recovery, whether we're AA, Al-Anon, Alateen, whoever, [02:45:07.812 – 02:45:13.972] if we work these steps and they become a way of life, I believe an avenue of service will open up.

[02:45:13.972 – 02:45:21.692] And it'll, uh, it may be many things, many things, but it'll open up. [02:45:21.692 – 02:45:30.112] And I bel- personally believe that without any question, the quality of my recovery will hinge on how I respond to that. [02:45:30.112 – 02:45:39.652] If I'm able to just take a look at the avenues of service that open up and walk away, I'm the loser. [02:45:39.652 – 02:45:41.692] I'm the loser. [02:45:41.692 – 02:45:45.692] And when I do that and walk away, I'm diminished in the process. [02:45:45.692 – 02:45:56.052] If I can take a look at a need that needs to be addressed, and I'm capable of addressing it, and I walk away, I

[02:45:56.052 – 02:45:56.492] lose. [02:45:56.492 – 02:45:57.792] I lose. [02:45:57.792 – 02:46:07.832] And, and so it's critical for me in terms of becoming a real functioning, well-rewarded, uh, member of the [02:46:07.832 – 02:46:12.002] world and member of AA, that when those, those opportunities come, that I do them. [02:46:12.002 – 02:46:18.452] See, I think everybody in the world has a story that somebody needs to hear. [02:46:18.452 – 02:46:22.572] You've got a story that somebody needs to hear. [02:46:22.572 – 02:46:24.432] Don't need to hear mine. [02:46:24.432 – 02:46:26.272] They need to hear yours. [02:46:26.272 – 02:46:32.412] And when I selfishly withhold that, I lose big time.

[02:46:32.412 – 02:46:42.472] And so a real action step, you know, of, of, of finding a way to serve, to serve, of being open for those kinds of experiences that, [02:46:42.472 – 02:46:46.652] that, that bring me out of myself, uh, gets you into some deep water. [02:46:46.652 – 02:46:56.912] I tell you this, that even though that has, has been my track record, I have never yet taken [02:46:56.912 – 02:47:02.772] on a, an, an activity that I felt perfectly comfortable to do. [02:47:02.772 – 02:47:04.412] Never have. [02:47:04.412 – 02:47:14.832] Now, even though I, I bet you I've talked 10,000 times in AA, I have never done it without a certain level of tension and anxiety.

[02:47:14.832 – 02:47:19.392] You know, it's not like the first time I did it when I about, about blacked out. [02:47:19.392 – 02:47:21.562] I mean, I literally- … [02:47:21.562 – 02:47:23.451] blacked out the first time I ever spoke. [02:47:23.451 – 02:47:30.072] And, uh, but it's always there, and I personally think it always should. [02:47:30.072 – 02:47:40.652] Uh, I sort of got it in the back of my mind, if I ever get to the point that I can just comfortably get up in front of, of a group and talk with no, no neurons firing,

[02:47:40.652 – 02:47:47.272] I think I'm gonna sit back down because that means that it's moved to my head instead of my heart. [02:47:47.272 – 02:47:54.172] And, and there's something intimate and personal about what we do in AA, or else it loses its meaning. [02:47:54.172 – 02:47:55.512] And so I think that's really appropriate. [02:47:55.512 – 02:48:06.432] It was also appropriate that when I responded to those things, recognized that I had to step through the fear, but [02:48:06.432 – 02:48:08.892] recognized the value of stepping through the fear. [02:48:08.892 – 02:48:13.992] If I live within my comfort zone, I'll never go anywhere.

[02:48:13.992 – 02:48:23.519] And, and so really important for me to be in the spiritual condition that I'm ready and willing to serve, and I'll become able. [02:48:23.519 – 02:48:25.540] Awfully important for me. [02:48:25.540 – 02:48:36.340] And, um, in the, in the 12th, we, we, we're talking about the, the, the step of, of, um, of [02:48:36.340 – 02:48:47.100] really making this a way of life, where you're having, having done these things, there's 200 words in the steps, and having done what's laid out there, [02:48:47.100 – 02:48:50.100] what it says to me is that I'm gonna have a spiritual awakening.

[02:48:50.100 – 02:48:52.200] I'll have an awakened spirit. [02:48:52.200 – 02:48:54.160] I'll have a different way of looking at things. [02:48:54.160 – 02:48:58.020] This mind of this chronic alcoholic will be geared a different way. [02:48:58.020 – 02:49:03.320] And that's, uh, that's, to me, is a real promise that's embodied in, in what we do. [02:49:03.320 – 02:49:07.740] And in having had that happen, we do a couple of things. [02:49:07.740 – 02:49:16.500] One is we try to carry this message to, to, to, to other alcoholics by whatever method that we possibly can, no matter what it is.

[02:49:16.500 – 02:49:19.340] Uh, it's like what we're doing here today. [02:49:19.340 – 02:49:22.380] Uh, I've been watching the, the stuff that's going on. [02:49:22.380 – 02:49:25.700] You know, Don and I have done the, the visible part of it. [02:49:25.700 – 02:49:31.260] But the stuff that's behind this, what a powerful service that is. [02:49:31.260 – 02:49:34.860] Now, I watched how those things ap- appeared on that table back there. [02:49:34.860 – 02:49:37.660] I watched how they happened, how they happened yesterday. [02:49:37.660 – 02:49:40.500] Tremendous service involved in that thing. [02:49:40.500 – 02:49:42.180] Somebody got this hall. [02:49:42.180 – 02:49:44.140] I watched people straightening up these chairs.

[02:49:44.140 – 02:49:49.520] You know, all of those are really valuable services that help make something happen. [02:49:49.520 – 02:49:57.560] So opportunities to serve, opportunities to carry a message go far beyond just what I can personally do. [02:49:57.560 – 02:50:01.480] And so I think it opens up in the, uh… [02:50:01.480 – 02:50:09.720] and, and, and, and, and so our task, as laid out in there, is to try to carry this message by any message that, uh, method that we can. [02:50:09.720 – 02:50:13.640] And, and then to practice the principles in our affairs.

[02:50:13.640 – 02:50:16.160] You know, that, that's the kind of thing I was talking about in 10. [02:50:16.160 – 02:50:20.700] It sounds easy, except I'm gonna… [02:50:20.700 – 02:50:21.420] Oh, here it is. [02:50:21.420 – 02:50:23.200] I, I, darn, I thought I lost my coffee. [02:50:23.200 – 02:50:33.360] It sounds kind of, kind of cliche-like to say that practice these principles in all our affairs, and I don't want to skim by that too lightly. [02:50:33.360 – 02:50:39.780] And I, and I'll just touch on this thing, and then maybe come back to it a little bit when we get into, to, to this, this other part.

[02:50:39.780 – 02:50:50.459] I think it's awfully, awfully important for these principles to be engaged in this process to keep from self-destructing. [02:50:50.459 – 02:50:54.800] Uh, we can self-destruct in this program if the principles aren't solidly in place. [02:50:54.800 – 02:51:04.880] And, uh, there's an important thing that I, I think it was important for me, is to understand the difference between [02:51:04.880 – 02:51:10.060] real purposeful action in Alcoholics Anonymous and activity. [02:51:10.060 – 02:51:11.799] Big difference in that. [02:51:11.799 – 02:51:15.420] You know, purposeful action as opposed to activity. [02:51:15.420 – 02:51:23.780] You know, for, when I was first in the program, and I didn't even know what purposeful action meant, I was a guy who was fantastically active.

[02:51:23.780 – 02:51:29.320] And I don't second-guess that one bit today because it served its purpose. [02:51:29.320 – 02:51:31.900] You know, it protected me from myself. [02:51:31.900 – 02:51:34.460] It kept me too busy to get in trouble. [02:51:34.460 – 02:51:39.540] It kept me getting out of myself and getting acquainted with other people and learning about the program. [02:51:39.540 – 02:51:41.500] You know, I don't, I don't question it. [02:51:41.500 – 02:51:48.900] Uh, I know that I was hid in that activity for a while, and it helped me get the muscles to start engaging in life.

[02:51:48.900 – 02:51:50.540] So nothing wrong with that. [02:51:50.540 – 02:52:00.620] But if I see a guy with a, a good number of years of sobriety who's still frantically making seven meetings [02:52:00.620 – 02:52:09.240] a week, I'd be about as concerned about that person as I would somebody making one meeting a week because there's something really out of whack with that. [02:52:09.240 – 02:52:16.360] You know, the, um, learning the difference between activity and action is tremendously important. [02:52:16.360 – 02:52:26.040] Don talked about a thing that, that, about how we get trust in the people that we, uh, that we, we enter, or we're really closely related to.

[02:52:26.040 – 02:52:28.660] Think about this a minute. [02:52:28.660 – 02:52:38.320] We say sometimes, I used to say it, but I don't say it now, that AA has to come first. [02:52:38.320 – 02:52:41.260] It has to come before everything else. [02:52:41.260 – 02:52:44.940] I don't say that anymore because I don't believe that anymore. [02:52:44.940 – 02:52:55.000] Because when I try to operate under that banner, I set up some real red flag conditions [02:52:55.000 – 02:52:59.320] in the life of me and the people who are close to me. [02:52:59.320 – 02:53:02.460] If I say to my wife- [02:53:03.794 – 02:53:12.914] You know, if I, if she doesn't understand the difference between what I'm committed to and what I'm just doing, I've got a lot of trouble.

[02:53:12.914 – 02:53:23.294] If I say to my wife that, "Well, Wednesday, I'm gonna run over here, and I'm gonna do this," and she's got some trouble with that, and I say, "Well, you know, AA's gotta come first," [02:53:23.294 – 02:53:26.094] well, there'll be a fight at my house. [02:53:26.094 – 02:53:27.554] I, I don't know about your house. [02:53:27.554 – 02:53:32.314] But there'll be a fight, uh, because there are other things that are important. [02:53:32.314 – 02:53:42.964] You know, the, uh, what, what I have to do that's critically important for me, and I am an extremely active member of AA,

[02:53:42.964 – 02:53:47.574] and it's, it's doubly important for an extremely active member, and I know some of you are. [02:53:47.574 – 02:53:56.414] My family fully understands, everybody who knows me understands, that I have some commitments that are not negotiable. [02:53:56.414 – 02:53:58.094] They're not negotiable. [02:53:58.094 – 02:54:02.174] My home group is a commitment that's not negotiable. [02:54:02.174 – 02:54:05.934] And if I'm not there, it's because I've got some… [02:54:05.934 – 02:54:15.354] I'm, I either cannot get there, or I've got some service that I'm doing that I think is, is, is, is worth making the move to do.

[02:54:15.354 – 02:54:17.654] But otherwise, it's an absolute commitment. [02:54:17.654 – 02:54:27.654] And like Don was saying, if you wanna find Tom Ivester, you go to Moore County, and you say, "Where is that boy?" If it's Monday, they'll tell you to go over to the Baptist Church, Southern [02:54:27.654 – 02:54:28.514] Pine, you'll find him. [02:54:28.514 – 02:54:31.154] Uh, if it's Thursday, they'll tell you the same thing. [02:54:31.154 – 02:54:35.674] Now, that's important in terms of being trustworthy. [02:54:35.674 – 02:54:42.174] And my family understands that that's a commitment, and there's absolutely no conflict. [02:54:42.174 – 02:54:43.514] That's who I am.

[02:54:43.514 – 02:54:47.434] And you can trust me that that's exactly what I do. [02:54:47.434 – 02:54:54.294] And, and so, you know, like the other day, my son, son came to town, and it was a very unique experience. [02:54:54.294 – 02:54:56.014] He wanted to take us to dinner. [02:54:56.014 – 02:55:06.074] And he's, he's been a, he's been a struggling medical student for a lot of years, and he's now self-supporting as a young physician out in Tennessee, [02:55:06.074 – 02:55:08.554] and he could finally afford to take us to dinner. [02:55:08.554 – 02:55:18.554] And so he said, "Dad, I wanna take you guys to dinner." I said, "That's great." And, uh, only thing is that he caught a little

[02:55:18.554 – 02:55:21.334] look in my eye, and he caught himself. [02:55:21.334 – 02:55:22.214] I didn't have to say a word. [02:55:22.214 – 02:55:23.014] He said, "Oh, wait a minute. [02:55:23.014 – 02:55:28.154] This is me tonight." He said, "We'll do a different time." Yeah. [02:55:28.154 – 02:55:29.214] No problem. [02:55:29.214 – 02:55:39.234] But suppose I'd have said to my young visiting physician, "No, I'm sorry, son, I got something to do at AA tonight, and that's more important to you, 'cause that's gotta come first." See what I'm talking about? [02:55:39.234 – 02:55:49.474] You know, just a simple thing of letting people know who I am and what my commitments are, not what my values are about them as opposed to this.

[02:55:49.474 – 02:55:59.234] So when I say to somebody, "AA gotta come first," that's a-an insult to somebody, and it's a contradiction of practicing principles. [02:55:59.234 – 02:56:03.074] You know, there are also principles involved in a marriage. [02:56:03.074 – 02:56:08.674] There are principles involved in a parental relationship, in a work relationship. [02:56:08.674 – 02:56:16.554] Sometimes we get into a box of, of, um, of, of trying to compartmentalize our lives. [02:56:16.554 – 02:56:26.094] You know, people talk about balance, and they'll use some sort of graphic demonstration of, you know, so much time for work and so much time for play and so much time for AA.

[02:56:26.094 – 02:56:29.914] And, um, and it's not real bad thinking. [02:56:29.914 – 02:56:41.434] It just sort of misses a very important point, is that if I'm doing it right, if I'm practicing these principles as a way of life, AA [02:56:41.434 – 02:56:43.854] does not compete with anything in my life. [02:56:43.854 – 02:56:46.934] Does not compete with anything in my life. [02:56:46.934 – 02:56:49.854] If it does, I'm not doing it right. [02:56:49.854 – 02:56:57.974] If it doesn't make me a better employee where I work, I'm not doing it right. [02:56:57.974 – 02:57:06.354] If it doesn't make me a better parent, a better husband, a better employer, I'm not doing it right.

[02:57:06.354 – 02:57:09.894] Because this, this is a way of life. [02:57:09.894 – 02:57:12.014] It's not an activity. [02:57:12.014 – 02:57:17.834] It's not something that I go do and get what I need and then get on with my life. [02:57:17.834 – 02:57:18.434] You know? [02:57:18.434 – 02:57:23.334] It, it, it undergirds and makes happen everything in my life. [02:57:23.334 – 02:57:33.354] And so that's what's so important to me about having real commitments about what I do in this program and then having commitments [02:57:33.354 – 02:57:37.954] to other things as well, uh, so that I can have a, a well-balanced life.

[02:57:37.954 – 02:57:48.134] And so if I do it that way, I'm not, not running into, to, to opposition and roadblocks and, and, and creating friction in things. [02:57:48.134 – 02:57:49.084] You know? [02:57:49.084 – 02:57:51.594] I can resolve that on the basis of the principle. [02:57:51.594 – 02:58:01.634] And, and so, uh, uh, I go into that a little bit because it, it, it, it, it lends to, to, to, to, to stuff that, that when you start thinking beyond your, [02:58:01.634 – 02:58:06.934] your level of, uh, what I call it, the circle of y- your personal magic.

[02:58:06.934 – 02:58:15.514] When we start thinking beyond that, you gotta get into broader issues than just how I do my sobriety and how I do my home group. [02:58:15.514 – 02:58:23.274] And then when we start thinking in those terms, it, it starts looking at some expanded kinds of activities, expanded kind of thinking. [02:58:23.274 – 02:58:32.374] And awfully important to me to be, to be well-grounded and to understand that difference about committed actions as opposed to just frantic activity. [02:58:32.374 – 02:58:43.204] Um, when, when I look at, at what I want to get done as

[02:58:43.204 – 02:58:49.014] an AA member, I, I guess if I had to identify a mission, and you've probably got your own. [02:58:49.014 – 02:58:59.094] If I ha– if I wanted to identify a mission of what is it that I really want to contribute to Alcoholics Anonymous in gratitude for what's been [02:58:59.094 – 02:59:02.934] given me, it would be something s- very much like this. [02:59:02.934 – 02:59:12.974] I want to do everything that I possibly can, contribute everything that I can, to ensuring that the [02:59:12.974 – 02:59:19.214] next man, woman, boy, or girl who comes through that door gets as good as was given to me.

[02:59:19.214 – 02:59:22.534] I don't think I can do any less than that. [02:59:22.534 – 02:59:24.294] And that's what I want to do. [02:59:24.294 – 02:59:26.654] Now, that's a tall order. [02:59:26.654 – 02:59:27.074] Yeah. [02:59:27.074 – 02:59:34.254] And certainly, what I do in the circle of my own personal magic is a vital part of that. [02:59:34.254 – 02:59:34.894] Yeah. [02:59:34.894 – 02:59:37.214] Certainly, there's a contribution to be made. [02:59:37.214 – 02:59:40.214] Like, I welcome people to Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:59:40.214 – 02:59:40.614] Yeah. [02:59:40.614 – 02:59:42.054] I don't care where I am. [02:59:42.054 – 02:59:44.114] I guarantee you I do it in my home group. [02:59:44.114 – 02:59:50.934] If somebody gets out of my home group without me wrestl- arm wrestling with them, you can bet that they hid.

[02:59:50.934 – 02:59:51.334] Yeah. [02:59:51.334 – 02:59:53.514] 'Cause I'm gonna get that turkey if he walks in there. [02:59:53.514 – 03:00:03.274] Home group members, everybody, I'm gonna make sure that everybody who walks in there knows they're welcome, or they're gonna know that they've been harassed, one or the other. [03:00:03.274 – 03:00:06.654] That is their choice, you know? [03:00:06.654 – 03:00:10.074] But, so I can do that, you know. [03:00:10.074 – 03:00:12.414] I, I can do that, and that has its value. [03:00:12.414 – 03:00:21.134] You know, one of the minimum values that it has is that it makes every meeting I attend a warm and welcoming place.

[03:00:21.134 – 03:00:23.734] Because it starts with me. [03:00:23.734 – 03:00:28.594] And so I'm not somebody who, who hides in corners and this kind of stuff. [03:00:28.594 – 03:00:34.674] I'm somebody who gets right out into the mainstream of the action, and, and, and, and, and so I can do that. [03:00:34.674 – 03:00:37.154] But that's limited, isn't it? [03:00:37.154 – 03:00:37.794] That's limited. [03:00:37.794 – 03:00:38.854] That's just one little thing. [03:00:38.854 – 03:00:39.484] It's valuable. [03:00:39.484 – 03:00:43.734] Like, I went in to speak at a little meeting, uh, down below where I live. [03:00:43.734 – 03:00:48.634] And, uh, I just did my usual thing.

[03:00:48.634 – 03:00:54.174] You know, I just walk around, shaking hands with folks, and, and all that stuff, and I met some lady I didn't know. [03:00:54.174 – 03:00:56.694] And she came over afterward. [03:00:56.694 – 03:01:00.794] She said, "Can I ask you a, a personal question?" I said, "Sure. [03:01:00.794 – 03:01:10.264] What, what?" She said, "What do you sell?" I said, "Well, nothing." I, I… [03:01:10.264 – 03:01:11.514] "Well," I said, "Wait a minute. [03:01:11.514 – 03:01:19.654] Yeah, I do." I said, "I sell recovery, and I got one hell of a deal on that baby." And that's true.

[03:01:19.654 – 03:01:20.713] That, that's true. [03:01:20.713 – 03:01:27.474] You know, because if I want to be somebody who contributes to the attraction of Alcoholics Anonymous, I can do that. [03:01:27.474 – 03:01:30.814] I can do that, and it'll have some value. [03:01:30.814 – 03:01:33.963] So that's one of the things I can do. [03:01:33.963 – 03:01:35.014] But that's a limited thing. [03:01:35.014 – 03:01:45.094] And so if I want Alcoholics Anonymous to be a place where somebody can count on getting as good as I was given, [03:01:45.094 – 03:01:48.493] that's one little contribution, but it's tiny. [03:01:48.493 – 03:01:50.774] So what do I do beyond that?

[03:01:50.774 – 03:02:00.874] I'm somebody who believes that a home group, a home group, is a vital, not only a vital, but [03:02:00.874 – 03:02:04.394] the most vital single ingredient in Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:02:04.394 – 03:02:07.754] We call it the basic building block. [03:02:07.754 – 03:02:11.394] And I believe that it, it absolutely starts with a home group. [03:02:11.394 – 03:02:19.814] See, my personal, my circle of personal magic is gonna have influence, but limited influence. [03:02:19.814 – 03:02:30.154] And when I meet with somebody, whether I'm doing it individually or whatever, yeah, I can do my thing, but if I don't have a group

[03:02:30.154 – 03:02:34.434] that delivers on what I promise, I've sold them a bill of goods. [03:02:34.434 – 03:02:40.254] And I have to recognize that my personal magic is only gonna go so far. [03:02:40.254 – 03:02:45.834] And so I've got to have a group that I can trust to deliver the goods. [03:02:45.834 – 03:02:56.514] And so when I take them in there, I want, I want that group to be a place where alcoholics have a good chance to get well, a [03:02:56.514 – 03:03:00.974] good chance to know that, excuse me, that they're in the right place.

[03:03:00.974 – 03:03:04.994] And so I have to think bigger than just me and my magic. [03:03:04.994 – 03:03:13.454] I've got to think about my dependence on a group to get what I need and to be sure that folk get what they need. [03:03:13.454 – 03:03:16.234] And I tell you, I tell you what's important. [03:03:16.234 – 03:03:17.334] Well, I don't need to tell you. [03:03:17.334 – 03:03:18.734] You know what's important about that. [03:03:18.734 – 03:03:28.394] I, I had a twelve-step call one day, and, uh, and, uh, I messed with the fellow all day long, and he was actually agreeing with some stuff.

[03:03:28.394 – 03:03:30.654] And I, and I got him to a meeting. [03:03:30.654 – 03:03:35.814] And I wanted to take him to a newcomer meeting for obvious reasons. [03:03:35.814 – 03:03:40.874] And, uh, so I, I, I remembered a group that had a newcomer meeting. [03:03:40.874 – 03:03:47.254] And I went over, and, uh, they, a huge group. [03:03:47.254 – 03:03:51.724] And they announced how they were gonna break up, and the newcomer meeting was gonna stay- [03:03:51.896 – 03:03:55.896] where we had convened, and then others were gonna scatter out to other meetings. [03:03:55.896 – 03:03:59.616] Well, I bet 85 people stayed in a newcomer.

[03:03:59.616 – 03:04:04.976] I said, "My God, they've had an epidemic up here." Everybody's drunk. [03:04:04.976 – 03:04:10.236] Well, and all it was was just people hanging out, you know? [03:04:10.236 – 03:04:15.016] You, you, you, in an ill-defined newcomer meeting, you'll get a lot of mixed baggage. [03:04:15.016 – 03:04:18.775] You get some newcomers, and there were a couple in there, I think. [03:04:18.775 – 03:04:27.156] You get a lot of people that wanna hide somewhere to keep from doing anything, and you got some that wanna beat up newcomers if they get an opportunity.

[03:04:27.156 – 03:04:32.616] And so here we sat, 85 people, and I got a brand-new drunk sitting with me. [03:04:32.616 – 03:04:38.076] And they start some almost sounding like a who's got a problem meeting. [03:04:38.076 – 03:04:44.996] I, I mean, we're just going into some mundane kind of conversation, and I'm sitting there, talk about throwing up, guys. [03:04:44.996 – 03:04:47.396] Let's talk about something that makes sense to a newcomer. [03:04:47.396 – 03:04:49.576] And I mean, it wasn't nothing happening. [03:04:49.576 – 03:04:50.866] Nothing happening. [03:04:50.866 – 03:04:53.736] And this guy was more brain-dead than I was. [03:04:53.736 – 03:04:59.896] And, and now normally, you know, I'm not somebody that just likes to speak up in a meeting.

[03:04:59.896 – 03:05:01.196] I, I just don't like that. [03:05:01.196 – 03:05:06.056] I learned not to volunteer very much, and so I just don't like it a bit. [03:05:06.056 – 03:05:08.836] And but that time I did. [03:05:08.836 – 03:05:14.176] I, I, I figured if I wanted him to hear it, I better say it, you know, 'cause well, he'd been listening to me all day. [03:05:14.176 – 03:05:15.896] I wanted somebody else to say it. [03:05:15.896 – 03:05:21.336] Uh, so I stuck my hand up, and I started talking newcomer stuff. [03:05:21.336 – 03:05:23.616] And an amazing thing happened. [03:05:23.616 – 03:05:30.586] You know, I just said a few words, and you could see people turn around looking like, "Where'd this guy come from?" You know.

[03:05:30.586 – 03:05:38.416] And started listening because I was not the only guy in there that was totally frustrated by a newcomer meeting that wasn't a newcomer meeting. [03:05:38.416 – 03:05:43.676] Uh, and, and such a simple little action can make a difference. [03:05:43.676 – 03:05:47.756] Now, it was not gonna make a permanent difference, but it made a difference in that meeting. [03:05:47.756 – 03:05:55.776] From that point forward, I didn't chew anybody out and say, "Y'all are misrepresenting." I just started demonstrating what ought to happen in a newcomer meeting.

[03:05:55.776 – 03:05:57.836] And then people jumped right in. [03:05:57.836 – 03:06:00.015] The meeting never went back to what it had been before. [03:06:00.015 – 03:06:05.556] Now, that's not a major solution, but at least it's an action, you know? [03:06:05.556 – 03:06:15.556] And, and the point is that if I want my group to be effective, I gotta be careful that it's a group that has the capacity to [03:06:15.556 – 03:06:16.276] be effective. [03:06:16.276 – 03:06:26.496] If it's a newcomer meeting, it needs to be a newcomer meeting that actually does newcomer stuff, so that when somebody comes in, I can count

[03:06:26.496 – 03:06:31.676] on that resource being delivered effectively as we're capable of doing. [03:06:31.676 – 03:06:41.756] And that's part of that thing about thinking beyond just, just my own limitations, my, my own personal circle and my own personal magic, but, but [03:06:41.756 – 03:06:45.976] starting to think about how the group becomes a huge resource. [03:06:45.976 – 03:06:55.736] You know, I wanna be sure that when somebody comes into my group, they know it's a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:06:55.736 – 03:06:58.816] I don't want them to have to guess what we're meeting about.

[03:06:58.816 – 03:07:00.656] I want them to know. [03:07:00.656 – 03:07:10.796] Now, that, that sounds like a throwaway, but I'll guarantee you I've walked into many meetings in this country that would have defied Bill Wilson to interpret [03:07:10.796 – 03:07:12.666] it as a, as a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:07:12.666 – 03:07:14.276] You couldn't tell what it was. [03:07:14.276 – 03:07:17.236] Well, I can handle that now. [03:07:17.236 – 03:07:25.656] But suppose I'm a brand-new person that's trying to see if there's any hope for me at the last stop on the bus line. [03:07:25.656 – 03:07:25.966] Mm-hmm. [03:07:25.966 – 03:07:36.096] And I walk into a meeting that's so ill-defined that you can't tell what it is, and that's a very real issue in this

[03:07:36.096 – 03:07:38.096] country, a very real issue. [03:07:38.096 – 03:07:48.116] And so part of what I can do is try to be sure that my place talks Alcoholics Anonymous, that it's [03:07:48.116 – 03:07:50.696] not Myriad Problems Anonymous. [03:07:50.696 – 03:07:52.425] It's Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:07:52.425 – 03:07:53.516] That's what it's about. [03:07:53.516 – 03:08:00.376] And recognize that we've got a clear purpose to be served here. [03:08:00.376 – 03:08:10.416] You know, like, one of the things that we deal with enormously now, and have for a number of years, is this thing about, about, [03:08:10.416 – 03:08:11.596] uh… [03:08:11.596 – 03:08:13.246] Well, I, I don't know.

[03:08:13.246 – 03:08:23.156] I guess it all sort of, sort of came from the time when we started doing wholesale treatment of folks, and we started getting just various people sort of shifted into Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:08:23.156 – 03:08:33.196] With the, the, the thing of dual addiction or just addiction is a, is an enormous problem around this [03:08:33.196 – 03:08:33.716] country. [03:08:33.716 – 03:08:43.785] And when I get off an airplane in most any city that I go, there are two problems that are paramount when I start asking how things

[03:08:43.785 – 03:08:44.076] are. [03:08:44.076 – 03:08:53.196] One is the thing of, of, uh, of dual addiction, that we, we, we just don't have real alcoholics anymore. [03:08:53.196 – 03:08:58.296] We got hybrid types, and we got such an influx of addicts that we just don't know how to deal with them. [03:08:58.296 – 03:09:01.236] It's a huge, huge problem around the country. [03:09:01.236 – 03:09:06.496] There are places where it's no longer an issue. [03:09:06.496 – 03:09:07.696] Folks have just given up. [03:09:07.696 – 03:09:12.856] They've just given up and let it become whatever it is. [03:09:12.856 – 03:09:23.216] Now, I would, I would suggest to you that that is a tremendously piece of bad news, tremendously

[03:09:23.216 – 03:09:30.716] piece of a, piece of tremendously bad news, when we start giving up any pretense of being what we say we are. [03:09:30.716 – 03:09:33.136] Some people are tired of fighting. [03:09:33.136 – 03:09:35.336] They've just given up. [03:09:35.336 – 03:09:45.436] I have had a good friend, he died a while back, an old-timer, that was a, o- he was just almost the heart and soul of the group in Norfolk at, at the Central [03:09:45.436 – 03:09:46.836] Group in, in, in Norfolk. [03:09:46.836 – 03:09:55.512] And, and he, uh, I was talking with him one day, and he said that he was no longer in the Central Group And I said, "Why?

[03:09:55.512 – 03:09:57.972] My God, man, you've been there since day one. [03:09:57.972 – 03:10:08.132] Why?" And he said, "It got so bad I couldn't stand it." And he did that, that white flight thing, you know, like, he ran out of the city and hid [03:10:08.132 – 03:10:08.952] in the suburbs. [03:10:08.952 – 03:10:11.531] Now, I can understand that. [03:10:11.531 – 03:10:20.492] I can understand getting frustrated with the fight, but that's what happens, you know, when, when we start to, to give up the battle. [03:10:20.492 – 03:10:23.652] So what happens to folks who go into central group?

[03:10:23.652 – 03:10:34.652] Now, that, that kind of issue is, is the kind of thing where I think it's awfully important for those of us who want to serve effectively to recognize some responsibility [03:10:34.652 – 03:10:35.932] in how we deal with this. [03:10:35.932 – 03:10:37.412] Now, how do we do it? [03:10:37.412 – 03:10:47.632] You know, and so in my home group, I can be sure that we do as much as I'm capable of doing to see that we have a genuine meeting [03:10:47.632 – 03:10:57.952] of our Christ norms, so that when the person walks in who's alcoholic, he can have that sense of trust that he's in a place where folk understand,

[03:10:57.952 – 03:11:02.412] and not walk in and have to guess at what the agenda is. [03:11:02.412 – 03:11:04.112] Sounds like a minor thing. [03:11:04.112 – 03:11:14.252] I'll tell you a thing that happened, and, and, and some of us were chatting about a little bit last night, that we– a, a group I was in, in fact, I think it was the one [03:11:14.872 – 03:11:16.792] different group I was in, the one that Don was talking about. [03:11:16.792 – 03:11:26.812] There one night, and a guy came to me after the meeting and said, uh, said, "Tom, we need a group inventory." I mean, that's an unusual kind of thing

[03:11:26.812 – 03:11:27.672] for somebody to say. [03:11:27.672 – 03:11:32.322] I, I said, "Why?" He said, "You got too many addicts in you." Mm. [03:11:32.322 – 03:11:42.332] And I said, "What are you talking about?" So he told me, and, and, and what it turned out, I said, "Let me take a look, see if I see the same thing you do." And so I took a look, and what it [03:11:42.332 – 03:11:50.972] was, that there, there was an adolescent treatment center there in town that had a bunch of youngsters, and they were– they were herding them up and, and bringing them over to the group.

[03:11:50.972 – 03:11:55.872] And, and, and, and people at that point didn't have a clue what they were. [03:11:55.872 – 03:11:59.152] They, they just knew that they were kids in trouble. [03:11:59.152 – 03:11:59.932] That's all they knew. [03:11:59.932 – 03:12:02.792] And they knew the catchphrases that they'd heard. [03:12:02.792 – 03:12:06.112] They didn't know if they were alcoholics, addicts, or outer space Martians. [03:12:06.112 – 03:12:15.152] They, they– So they come in, and, uh, the problems that happened were mostly created by us. [03:12:15.152 – 03:12:19.752] In order to try to make them feel welcome, we would have them get up and read something.

[03:12:19.752 – 03:12:30.172] Well, you know, that's a little bit of a contradiction when you got a, a sixteen-year-old drug addict doing the presentation, [03:12:30.172 – 03:12:32.172] looks like, at an AA meeting. [03:12:32.172 – 03:12:33.992] And that's what it was. [03:12:33.992 – 03:12:44.392] And, and so we had a little steering committee meeting and, and said, "Let's see what we can do about this." Talked about it, and, and, and they decided that somebody ought to go over to the facility [03:12:44.392 – 03:12:46.272] and, and talk to people about the problems. [03:12:46.272 – 03:12:54.112] They asked me if I'd do it, and I said, "Yeah, I'd be glad to." So they got– went over, met with the director of the facility, and, uh, nice lady.

[03:12:54.112 – 03:12:55.052] Nice lady. [03:12:55.052 – 03:12:56.962] She'd never heard of a closed meeting. [03:12:56.962 – 03:13:00.411] She just knew that AA was a place she sent people with problems. [03:13:00.411 – 03:13:02.752] And so I explained to her what the problem was. [03:13:02.752 – 03:13:08.911] She said, "Oh, my gosh, yeah, we'll take care of that, no problem." See, nobody had ever bothered to tell her what we're about. [03:13:08.911 – 03:13:11.312] We just expected her to magically understand. [03:13:11.312 – 03:13:11.972] Yeah. [03:13:11.972 – 03:13:18.392] And then we want to get mad at them and go burn the place down because the agenda's all– Yeah.

[03:13:18.392 – 03:13:21.612] But if, if I want to do something about it, how do I do it? [03:13:21.612 – 03:13:23.552] And, you know, so that was one thing. [03:13:23.552 – 03:13:25.692] But that was the least important thing. [03:13:25.692 – 03:13:27.012] The problem wasn't them. [03:13:27.012 – 03:13:29.212] The problem was how we dealt with it. [03:13:29.212 – 03:13:37.692] And so what we did is we set up a newcomer program that is an open meeting. [03:13:37.692 – 03:13:47.772] And we don't care what he is when he comes in there because we recognize that when somebody comes out of halfway houses or treatment facilities or jails,

[03:13:47.772 – 03:13:51.972] there's a good chance that they're gonna be thoroughly confused about what label fits them. [03:13:51.972 – 03:14:00.092] And so what we don't want to do is have that resolved at the public level by embarrassing them in front of a crowd of people. [03:14:00.092 – 03:14:10.152] We think that a person who finds themselves in Alcoholics Anonymous, at a minimum, ought to get a warm welcome [03:14:10.152 – 03:14:13.872] and guidance about where they need to be. [03:14:13.872 – 03:14:19.852] They don't need some angry old man like me humiliating them.

[03:14:19.852 – 03:14:22.772] And that's what happens sometimes. [03:14:22.772 – 03:14:32.412] You know, we'll try to deal with these things rather than having a responsible way of dealing with it and helping folks figure out how to deal with their, with their problems. [03:14:32.412 – 03:14:33.512] Yeah. [03:14:33.512 – 03:14:38.572] If they can't get a warm welcome from us, it's a, it's a, it's a, that's a pretty bad news message. [03:14:38.572 – 03:14:40.682] And so that newco- [03:14:40.864 – 03:14:43.204] Newcomer program, what a tremendous resource. [03:14:43.204 – 03:14:48.504] It's been one of the most valuable additions to our group, group I'm in now.

[03:14:48.504 – 03:14:56.484] I doubt that I'll ever be in another group that I don't lobby hard to have that as part of it, because it's a way of effectively dealing with that. [03:14:56.484 – 03:15:07.024] In, in all of the years that we've been doing that, with that newcomer deal, there have only been two incidents where there was any kind of an unpleasant [03:15:07.024 – 03:15:07.844] exchange. [03:15:07.844 – 03:15:09.574] You know, like an argument over something. [03:15:09.574 – 03:15:10.704] Only two times. [03:15:10.704 – 03:15:19.304] Both times it was caused by our member who didn't know how to communicate something in anything less than negative terms.

[03:15:19.304 – 03:15:23.964] But we precipitated our own problem, and that's been a tremendous resource. [03:15:23.964 – 03:15:34.084] So when I start thinking about certainly I can't go out and, and, and change the world in that regard, but I can doggone well change the way I deal [03:15:34.084 – 03:15:44.224] with it, and I can contribute to how our group deals with it, so that you're in one place where somebody can come in and they can clearly [03:15:44.224 – 03:15:49.984] understand that this is a program that, that is for them, you know.

[03:15:49.984 – 03:15:51.424] And, and so we have that. [03:15:51.424 – 03:15:56.424] We have that open thing at every one of our meetings so that, uh, we, we can deal effectively with that. [03:15:56.424 – 03:16:03.904] So when I want somebody to get as good as I was given, that's one of the things I can do. [03:16:03.904 – 03:16:05.684] If… [03:16:05.684 – 03:16:11.624] and by the way, anybody wants to join in anytime or just, just, just throw anything up, just, just have at it. [03:16:11.624 – 03:16:14.464] You, you know I won't try to tease you out of it.

[03:16:14.464 – 03:16:16.044] Just ask us to jump on. [03:16:16.044 – 03:16:22.004] The, uh, so how do my, how do my group is a tremendous contribution. [03:16:22.004 – 03:16:23.684] That isn't enough. [03:16:23.684 – 03:16:34.504] It's im- it- it's important for me to recognize that it's, it's a sneaky kind of a thing, but [03:16:34.504 – 03:16:39.444] I'm glad that I belong to a strong group. [03:16:39.444 – 03:16:43.084] I'm really glad that I belong to a strong group. [03:16:43.084 – 03:16:49.904] But i- it's important for me to recognize that that by itself isn't enough. [03:16:49.904 – 03:16:54.724] I have to recognize that it's no better than the group next door.

[03:16:54.724 – 03:17:01.384] I have to recognize that most alcoholics in my county will not come to my group. [03:17:01.384 – 03:17:03.504] They're gonna go somewhere else. [03:17:03.504 – 03:17:14.104] So while I value having a sound and solid group, part of what I want to evaluate is what kind of a neighbor are we [03:17:14.104 – 03:17:14.924] to the next group? [03:17:14.924 – 03:17:24.404] Is our contribution holding ourselves in contrast and saying, "Geez, you ought to be like us." Is that the way I approach it? [03:17:24.404 – 03:17:29.124] Or do I approach it in a way of how can we contribute to this community?

[03:17:29.124 – 03:17:31.964] How can we contribute to the groups around us? [03:17:31.964 – 03:17:35.044] The autonomy doesn't mean isolation. [03:17:35.044 – 03:17:44.544] Our, our tradition about that says we're autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A as a whole. [03:17:44.544 – 03:17:52.284] So if all I can do is just sort of pump up with how wonderful we are, does that have a little impact? [03:17:52.284 – 03:17:54.424] I suspect it does. [03:17:54.424 – 03:17:55.644] I suspect it does. [03:17:55.644 – 03:18:05.644] And sometimes those of us who get into good, strong groups like that get carried away with that kind of arrogant sense of self-righteousness or, or,

[03:18:05.644 – 03:18:07.104] or whatever. [03:18:07.104 – 03:18:17.304] So very important for me to be connected and recognize that I'm a part of Alcoholics Anonymous as a whole, and just being one sound member or one sound [03:18:17.304 – 03:18:19.024] group is not gonna do it. [03:18:19.024 – 03:18:21.124] I've got to be connected to other things. [03:18:21.124 – 03:18:29.124] Uh, another thing that I can do, and, and do, is, uh, to be connected to Alcoholics Anonymous as a whole. [03:18:29.124 – 03:18:40.404] I'm the I'm the alternate DCM in my district, and, uh, it's [03:18:40.404 – 03:18:41.144] a good job.

[03:18:41.144 – 03:18:44.343] I don't really have any responsibility, but I got a lot of work to do. [03:18:44.343 – 03:18:49.064] I, I sponsor the DCM, and my job is to make him look good. [03:18:49.064 – 03:18:56.204] And, uh, and, and, and, and so we do some stuff, you know. [03:18:56.204 – 03:19:01.544] We do some stuff at a district level that can help us be a good neighbor to other groups around. [03:19:01.544 – 03:19:04.964] Uh, so I can contribute that way. [03:19:04.964 – 03:19:15.044] I can try to be a well-informed member who's conscientious about what this fellowship's about, and I can try to be of service at the di- various levels that I can,

[03:19:15.044 – 03:19:15.884] can contribute. [03:19:15.884 – 03:19:21.224] I'm the area chair, the state chair for, uh, A in Corrections in our district. [03:19:21.224 – 03:19:24.404] And it's not, not, it's not… [03:19:24.404 – 03:19:27.444] I'm not heroic particularly. [03:19:27.444 – 03:19:34.324] It's, it's just that it's kind of like I was saying earlier, I saw a contribution that I could make. [03:19:34.324 – 03:19:37.304] Uh, you probably gathered from Don I had a long career in corrections. [03:19:37.304 – 03:19:41.724] And, uh, I retired a year, a year and a half ago. [03:19:41.724 – 03:19:51.444] And the day I, I retired, I had already been elected to be the chair of A in Corrections the day I retired.

[03:19:51.444 – 03:19:53.644] So it'd be legal then. [03:19:53.644 – 03:19:55.924] And so the only thing I did, I just retired. [03:19:55.924 – 03:19:57.764] All I quit doing was getting a paycheck. [03:19:57.764 – 03:20:02.084] And I moved to the other side of the fence. [03:20:02.084 – 03:20:12.164] And, and there were two reasons I did that, and, and, and I hope that you'll think of this in terms of your realm of influence, your, the realm of where you can have [03:20:12.164 – 03:20:12.564] impact. [03:20:12.564 – 03:20:22.844] When, when I, when I retired, I'd been for thirty-nine years dealing with problems that are related to corrections, and I had watched

[03:20:22.844 – 03:20:25.444] what we do in corrections on a daily basis. [03:20:25.444 – 03:20:35.644] Uh, and if there was anybody in the country that understood the frustrations and difficulties of trying to, to, to, uh, work with corrections, [03:20:35.644 – 03:20:37.184] it had to be this guy. [03:20:37.184 – 03:20:45.944] And so when, when I left, I knew that I was in a, a unique position to be able to make a contribution. [03:20:45.944 – 03:20:51.828] And the system, I was the oldest employee in the system. [03:20:51.828 – 03:20:57.288] Knew practically everybody in there, and I'd hired half of them, it seemed like.

[03:20:57.288 – 03:21:00.808] I swear to God, it seemed like most of them were folks that I'd known when they were rookies. [03:21:00.808 – 03:21:09.128] And so when I walked out, I knew that I had access to that system like nobody else ever would have. [03:21:09.128 – 03:21:09.318] Mm. [03:21:09.318 – 03:21:18.848] And I knew that there were tremendous problems associated with, with, with AA members trying to work in corrections. [03:21:18.848 – 03:21:26.088] And I thought, "My God, man, how can I take a look at that and walk off and not do something about it?" And so I took on a job.

[03:21:26.088 – 03:21:27.728] It's a two-year commitment. [03:21:27.728 – 03:21:32.267] I'll finish it up about a hundred fifty days from now in, uh, December. [03:21:32.267 – 03:21:38.668] And there'll be two things that I will hope to, to contribute to getting done in that two-year period. [03:21:38.668 – 03:21:43.528] And then I will phase out of that and move on to something else, to whatever I do. [03:21:43.528 – 03:21:51.888] But the, the point is that, what I said earlier, if I could have looked at that situation… [03:21:51.888 – 03:21:58.328] Now, certainly after thirty-nine years, you know that the last thing I wanted to hear was a door slam behind me.

[03:21:58.328 – 03:21:58.968] You know that. [03:21:58.968 – 03:22:10.488] But if I could have looked at that level of need and my ability to contribute to it and walked away, I [03:22:10.488 – 03:22:16.388] doubt that you would have wanted me to be here this weekend, 'cause that would say an awful lot about me. [03:22:16.388 – 03:22:25.887] Uh, if I can take a look at a need and then just back away and say, "Gee, somebody ought to do something," and not step up to the plate, I'm the loser in that.

[03:22:25.887 – 03:22:36.348] And so when, when I look at, at, at, at, at, at effectiveness and, and, you know, how I can do something in this program, very important [03:22:36.348 – 03:22:38.748] for me to recognize that… [03:22:38.748 – 03:22:44.468] It's, it's kind of like I, I m- mentioned earlier, sometimes we get so locked in to looking- … [03:22:44.468 – 03:22:54.748] for excellence in our personal recovery, uh, and we'll get into sort of an endless series of workshops and studies and things like this, and if we don't watch it, that can be a real narrow

[03:22:54.748 – 03:23:01.768] world, real narrow world, where I'm spending my life checking my emotional pulse on a regular basis. [03:23:01.768 – 03:23:08.288] And so tremendously important for me, the vision is: How can I start thinking bigger than that? [03:23:08.288 – 03:23:12.988] And how can I start being participant in things that'll truly make a difference? [03:23:12.988 – 03:23:18.948] And so to me, that's a lot of where, when I look at effectiveness, that's the kind of things I gotta do. [03:23:18.948 – 03:23:28.708] There's a thousand more, but let's, let's stop r-r-r-and now and see if, if any, any kinds of reactions, questions, comments, or whatever.

[03:23:28.708 – 03:23:32.028] Uh, meanwhile I take a drink of coffee. [03:23:32.028 – 03:23:33.328] Is it? [03:23:33.328 – 03:23:33.968] Yeah. [03:23:33.968 – 03:23:40.968] Um, I thought it was really interesting how you said a strong group to go and to be, just be good neighbors. [03:23:40.968 – 03:23:44.817] Um, 'cause I tend to be arrogant. [03:23:44.817 – 03:23:44.977] Mm-hmm. [03:23:44.977 – 03:23:48.348] Um, which I don't like, but I don't know how to be a good neighbor. [03:23:48.348 – 03:23:55.048] And what types of activities would you do, like sponsor a workshop or ask someone else to join in, or…? [03:23:55.048 – 03:24:03.887] Well, being, being a good neighbor, it, it, what, what she was talking about was this, this idea of a, of a strong group being, being a good neighbor to the other groups around.

[03:24:03.887 – 03:24:06.508] And it's just like being a good neighbor in the neighborhood. [03:24:06.508 – 03:24:12.048] You know, to being, being friendly with the folk around, and to be, be kind in our thoughts. [03:24:12.048 – 03:24:13.628] You know, a lot of times we wanna criticize. [03:24:13.628 – 03:24:19.648] Like I was pretty critical of the stuff I was saying earlier about meetings that bear little resemblance to AA. [03:24:19.648 – 03:24:25.268] But if I went there, I would try to go with an open mind and make a contribution. [03:24:25.268 – 03:24:32.628] Uh, last Saturday, I, uh, we had s-something I was scheduled to do canceled, and I wound up not going anywhere.

[03:24:32.628 – 03:24:41.068] And so we got a bunch of folk from, from our group and just broke out some groceries, and you'll always gather a crowd if you break out groceries. [03:24:41.068 – 03:24:43.628] So we got a bunch of folks show up. [03:24:43.628 – 03:24:49.428] And so we pigged out and do– goofed around, went to swimming pool, chase horses and stuff. [03:24:49.428 – 03:24:52.568] Then we bunched up and went to a local meeting. [03:24:52.568 – 03:24:53.288] Yeah. [03:24:53.288 – 03:24:54.808] And we just dropped in. [03:24:54.808 – 03:24:56.448] We weren't there to tell them how to do anything.

[03:24:56.448 – 03:24:58.868] We were just there to be a good neighbor. [03:24:58.868 – 03:25:03.128] You know, and so we just sort of went in there, and, uh, they were so thrilled that we were there. [03:25:03.128 – 03:25:08.787] It doubled the size of their meeting that night, you know, 'cause we just came in and ate up all the donuts. [03:25:08.787 – 03:25:14.028] But, uh, you know, simple things like that, you know, of just being… [03:25:14.028 – 03:25:21.028] And not getting caught up into that sort of subtle superiority of we're doing it right and they ain't.

[03:25:21.028 – 03:25:29.618] The, the– What I have to keep in mind is that we don't have a quality control department in Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:25:30.905 – 03:25:33.485] And nobody can tell you when it's right. [03:25:33.485 – 03:25:34.005] Yeah. [03:25:34.005 – 03:25:44.085] We're about as generous as any organization could possibly be, that any time two or more of us bunch up and, and, and, and our purpose [03:25:44.085 – 03:25:50.485] is to stay sober, we can call ourselves an AA group, and nobody has to approve that. [03:25:50.485 – 03:25:56.685] Now, we can meet for the purpose of trying to get an insurrection against Alcoholics Anonymous if we want to.

[03:25:56.685 – 03:26:01.265] Nobody is gonna be able to challenge our right to function. [03:26:01.265 – 03:26:08.505] So even though I talk about the, the variations of quality, it, it, it, it… [03:26:08.505 – 03:26:12.065] Nobody can say what is or is not a group. [03:26:12.065 – 03:26:22.085] From my personal standpoint, some of the things have no semblance to what I think a group is, but that's not my business, really. [03:26:22.085 – 03:26:32.085] Uh, it– mine is to try to, try to contribute however I can in the ways I describe, you know, with how I can make a, a good, strong group, how I can

[03:26:32.085 – 03:26:37.605] provide some leadership in helping to tie that into the groups around us, uh, how I can contribute overall. [03:26:37.605 – 03:26:46.285] And so, you know, if I approach it that way, of how to be a good neighbor, how to be helpful to folk, uh, the ways come out, uh, including folks in. [03:26:46.285 – 03:26:47.865] Uh, you know, I have … [03:26:47.865 – 03:26:55.545] I, I won't go into all of it, but one of the things we have to do is deliberately avoid taking over our district.

[03:26:55.545 – 03:27:03.885] Uh, w- we have to avoid that because when we go in, if you don't watch it, we'll have every office, whether we intend to or not. [03:27:03.885 – 03:27:09.225] And so we have to deliberately manage so that we don't take over the district. [03:27:09.225 – 03:27:12.685] And so things like that are just kind of thoughtful things to do. [03:27:12.685 – 03:27:13.925] Yeah. [03:27:13.925 – 03:27:15.364] Anybody else? [03:27:15.364 – 03:27:16.575] Um, when you- Yeah, Phil … [03:27:16.575 – 03:27:21.765] say you have started newcomer meetings to deal with the problem of like, you know, school addiction.

[03:27:21.765 – 03:27:21.985] Yeah. [03:27:21.985 – 03:27:23.765] What exactly do you do in those meetings? [03:27:23.765 – 03:27:26.765] I mean, how do you sort of communicate, you know? [03:27:26.765 – 03:27:28.785] Well, we have an agenda. [03:27:28.785 – 03:27:30.265] We, we don't throw it up for grabs. [03:27:30.265 – 03:27:34.025] We don't just have a free-for-all, you know, let's all talk and reason together. [03:27:34.025 – 03:27:42.065] We, we have a, a, a, a, an agenda, and it's not a school, but it's a, it's a thing built around introductory stuff, stuff. [03:27:42.065 – 03:27:49.665] What we asked people to do when we revised it last time was remember when you came in, what did you really need to know?

[03:27:49.665 – 03:27:51.385] What did you really need to get? [03:27:51.385 – 03:27:55.525] And so our agenda is our memories of what we needed. [03:27:55.525 – 03:27:59.045] And, and so it's got specific things on there. [03:27:59.045 – 03:28:00.145] We go for, um… [03:28:00.145 – 03:28:04.075] We, we repeat it for, for I think three cycles. [03:28:04.075 – 03:28:06.045] I believe that we, we repeat. [03:28:06.045 – 03:28:10.025] Uh, we do the thing for a cycle, and then we repeat the same thing over. [03:28:10.025 – 03:28:13.764] Um, so it's, it's, it's structured that way. [03:28:13.764 – 03:28:19.625] We try to involve the folk somewhat in the meeting, but it's not a discussion meeting.

[03:28:19.625 – 03:28:24.425] It, it's a, it's, it's to give that information and then to engage them just like this. [03:28:24.425 – 03:28:28.345] You know, we did a whole bunch of presentation, a little bit of interaction. [03:28:28.345 – 03:28:29.565] Uh, but that, that's what it is. [03:28:29.565 – 03:28:37.165] It's just introductory material based on what we believe we needed when we came in, and the other folk are not gonna be radically different. [03:28:37.165 – 03:28:38.785] It really works well. [03:28:38.785 – 03:28:40.265] Yeah. [03:28:40.265 – 03:28:41.575] Anybody else? [03:28:41.575 – 03:28:44.045] Um, the, the general service office has a package. [03:28:44.045 – 03:28:44.725] Say what, Steve?

[03:28:44.725 – 03:28:46.905] The general service office has a package. [03:28:46.905 – 03:28:48.045] Yeah, it does. [03:28:48.045 – 03:28:49.625] It, it's a good, a good package. [03:28:49.625 – 03:28:50.385] We've used it. [03:28:50.385 – 03:28:54.265] Uh, what Steve was saying is there's, in the literature, there's a listing for it. [03:28:54.265 – 03:28:56.725] That one is a, it's a, it… [03:28:56.725 – 03:29:05.885] We quit using it not that there's anything wrong with it, but because there were some things that just were not adequately addressed in it and so we use a little something different now. [03:29:05.885 – 03:29:12.265] But that's a great package for– if you're looking for introductory material, it's right there in print, and it's cheap too.

[03:29:12.265 – 03:29:15.765] I always think about that. [03:29:15.765 – 03:29:16.045] Yeah. [03:29:16.045 – 03:29:16.565] Yeah. [03:29:16.565 – 03:29:17.014] Thanks, Steve. [03:29:17.014 – 03:29:18.405] Anybody else? [03:29:18.405 – 03:29:25.325] Name it and claim it. [03:29:25.325 – 03:29:35.825] What, what we talked about, I, I don't know, maybe it's just stuff that you need to think about, but, uh, you know, you know, what we, what we talked about, uh, to [03:29:35.825 – 03:29:41.345] me, it, it's a tremendously important dimension to gain in Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:29:41.345 – 03:29:45.285] I, I just, just say this and we'll, we'll wrap her up. [03:29:45.285 – 03:29:50.105] I, I think there's a, a lot of tremendous junctures and turning points in the program.

[03:29:50.105 – 03:30:00.225] For those of you that were there Friday night, I think I alluded a, a little bit to one of the junctures is in going through the steps, is when we get [03:30:00.225 – 03:30:09.305] to the, to through with inventory and, and, and there's a real critical decision point of deciding to move forward and do the rest of the program. [03:30:09.305 – 03:30:19.345] An awful lot of people never get past that juncture and opt out and, and, and wind up seeing Alcoholics Anonymous as just a place to go and get

[03:30:19.345 – 03:30:19.845] what I need. [03:30:19.845 – 03:30:22.945] And you can absolutely go to the bank on it. [03:30:22.945 – 03:30:33.385] I believe that people who make that decision ha- are gonna have a time-limited recovery because it's only a matter of time till you start getting saturated [03:30:33.385 – 03:30:36.485] if that's all you can see it as a place to get what you need. [03:30:36.485 – 03:30:46.525] And if I don't get to a point where I become an active channel in carrying this to other people and into, to, to getting those things straightened out

[03:30:46.525 – 03:30:51.605] in my life, that I'm gonna, I'm not gonna have a good time in Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:30:51.605 – 03:31:01.645] And there's another juncture, and I think it's the one we're talking about right now, where this program has to shift from a me focus [03:31:01.645 – 03:31:02.665] to a we focus. [03:31:02.665 – 03:31:08.945] A buddy of mine in, in, uh, Raleigh used to say it well, that it's the strangest kind… [03:31:08.945 – 03:31:11.705] It is a selfish program, no, no question about it. [03:31:11.705 – 03:31:15.605] Those little examples I gave about the kind of selfish.

[03:31:15.605 – 03:31:17.625] You give it away, and you can't give away more than you get. [03:31:17.625 – 03:31:21.265] Guy used to say, "It's the strangest selfishness in the world. [03:31:21.265 – 03:31:31.505] It's about ten percent gimme and about ninety percent give." And if I don't learn that, I'm gonna have difficulty [03:31:31.505 – 03:31:32.395] in Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:31:32.395 – 03:31:41.265] You know, I have to get to a point where I can recognize that my greatest insurance is how well I can actively try to s- to serve others. [03:31:41.265 – 03:31:45.164] And in the process, I get more than I could possibly imagine.

[03:31:45.164 – 03:31:53.381] And, but if I don't learn it, if, if my motivation is always on what can I get, I miss the whole spirit of what this thing's about. [03:31:53.381 – 03:31:56.181] And that, and that's what it's, it's about this morning. [03:31:56.181 – 03:32:02.261] It's, it's about seeing that it's great for me to be a decent sponsor to guys I work with. [03:32:02.261 – 03:32:05.561] It's great for me to do s- the best I can in something like this. [03:32:05.561 – 03:32:07.881] But I have to recognize that it's gotta be bigger.

[03:32:07.881 – 03:32:15.901] And so if I can't tie in to see how I can contribute to this thing as a whole, I'm not gonna get much effectiveness done. [03:32:15.901 – 03:32:18.181] Anybody any last thing? [03:32:18.181 – 03:32:20.821] Well, I agree with Donald. [03:32:20.821 – 03:32:22.461] Y'all have been a, a great bunch. [03:32:22.461 – 03:32:24.761] I've, uh, had a good time here this weekend. [03:32:24.761 – 03:32:25.161] Yeah. [03:32:25.161 – 03:32:27.281] Sam, Debbie? [03:32:27.281 – 03:32:29.621] Um, thank you. [03:32:29.621 – 03:32:40.981] Well, earlier you were talking about, um, you'd had a couple conflicts, um, that they, they, they rooted from members of AA with

[03:32:40.981 – 03:32:42.361] the newcomer group. [03:32:42.361 – 03:32:52.541] Um, my question is, we've had a couple incidents of AA members who are also involved in, um, [03:32:52.541 – 03:33:03.141] religious groups who are taking meetings into treatment facilities, and [03:33:03.141 – 03:33:13.331] are representing themselves not only, not as a, you know, only members of Alcoholics Anonymous, but inviting, [03:33:13.331 – 03:33:18.081] you know, inviting people to this religious group. [03:33:18.081 – 03:33:24.761] And it just came up this past week, and, I mean, this is a basic concern because we don't… [03:33:24.761 – 03:33:25.451] I, I mean, my, my…

[03:33:25.451 – 03:33:29.601] the way I'm raised in AA is we're not affiliated with anything, you know. [03:33:29.601 – 03:33:37.681] And so I was wondering how that could be approached in a loving way. [03:33:37.681 – 03:33:46.821] Like, I just want things out of proportion, and I have a personal view. [03:33:46.821 – 03:33:48.251] Opera. [03:33:48.251 – 03:33:51.281] How could I approach this in a loving way? [03:33:51.281 – 03:33:57.861] Open, candid, but, uh, very precise and- Yeah. [03:33:57.861 – 03:33:58.781] That'd be… [03:33:58.781 – 03:34:04.841] What she's talking about, the, the, the folks that have a whole bunch of agendas come in, uh, different agendas than this.

[03:34:04.841 – 03:34:15.621] That's, you know, it's, we, we, it's, it's tricky, and there, and there no real simple kind of a, a response to that other than to say this: the, the surest resolution [03:34:15.621 – 03:34:21.141] for those kind of conflicts I know is, is focused on the primary purpose as stated. [03:34:21.141 – 03:34:25.891] You know, that the primary, uh, that each group had one primary purpose, carries message to alcoholics still suffering. [03:34:25.891 – 03:34:32.381] When you start get– trying to handle it at the personal belief level, it's always a big fight.

[03:34:32.381 – 03:34:42.661] But the, the more you can focus on the principle, the principle of the primary purpose, that starts to define what's, what moves toward it and what doesn't. [03:34:42.661 – 03:34:44.701] And, and so I think you gotta do it. [03:34:44.701 – 03:34:49.161] And in the planning, it's like that, uh, correctional facility thing we're gonna do this afternoon. [03:34:49.161 – 03:34:52.521] Now, we'll be talking about the primary purpose there. [03:34:52.521 – 03:34:59.481] If we got into to individual fine-tuning about how we do it, how each one does it, if…

[03:34:59.481 – 03:35:02.301] But what we'll try to do is come to that primary purpose. [03:35:02.301 – 03:35:10.541] And so what I'm suggesting is that, that, that the personal level is not always the best place to attack that. [03:35:10.541 – 03:35:14.621] It's to get it in a neutral ground, like if you got a treatment facilities committee. [03:35:14.621 – 03:35:20.121] If you get that committee to put that on the agenda, and the agenda is the primary purpose. [03:35:20.121 – 03:35:22.761] What are we doing to satisfy the primary purpose? [03:35:22.761 – 03:35:29.081] If you start trying to do it just on the basis of personal debate, uh, it's always a real sticky wicket.

[03:35:29.081 – 03:35:32.261] And so that's one of the places I think we have to broaden the agenda a bit. [03:35:32.261 – 03:35:39.581] So are you suggesting that we should do, uh, workshops within the committee on primary purpose? [03:35:39.581 – 03:35:43.381] Or just have the committee meeting around the primary purpose. [03:35:43.381 – 03:35:45.761] You know, review what you're being do– re-review what you're doing. [03:35:45.761 – 03:35:52.541] It's like we did in newcomer days, where we set an agenda on the basis of the collective experience of what achieves the primary. [03:35:52.541 – 03:35:54.241] You know, it doesn't need a workshop.

[03:35:54.241 – 03:35:56.381] I think we workshop stuff to death. [03:35:56.381 – 03:35:59.881] Sometimes you just take the principle and then try to work around it. [03:35:59.881 – 03:36:02.240] You know, how do we get this thing accomplished? [03:36:02.240 – 03:36:02.461] Yeah. [03:36:02.461 – 03:36:03.860] It's the thing that… [03:36:03.860 – 03:36:09.741] And that, that– the way I would go at something like that, you gotta broaden it from just that personal kind of combat thing. [03:36:09.741 – 03:36:10.541] Yeah. [03:36:10.541 – 03:36:12.961] Committee it to death. [03:36:12.961 – 03:36:13.341] Yeah. [03:36:13.341 – 03:36:15.881] Okay. [03:36:15.881 – 03:36:16.541] Thanks, guys. [03:36:16.541 – 03:36:17.441] Thank you very much.