Tom Powers presented by Jim W presented by Tom Powers presented by Jim W – 2025-10-14

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Unknown Tuesday Night History Workshop • 2025

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Unknown ABOUT THIS WORKSHOP

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Unknown Tom Powers presented by Jim W speaking on "Tom Powers presented by Jim W" in Tuesday Night History Workshop (October 14, 2025). This recording is preserved in high-fidelity with interactive scrolling transcripts.

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Unknown Interactive Transcript

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[00 00:04.480 – 00:00:08.800] Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop.

0:20

[00 00:08.800 – 00:00:10.279] Thanks for joining us.

0:22

[00 00:10.279 – 00:00:17.539] My name is Tim, and tonight's presentation on Tom Powers will be led by Jim W.

0:28

[00 00:17.539 – 00:00:24.339] We meet here every Tuesday night at the same time using the same Zoom ID.

0:34

[00 00:24.339 – 00:00:33.640] And okay, next week will be Nancy Kay presenting Tradition 11.

0:38

[00 00:33.640 – 00:00:43.979] And this meeting is being recorded, and the all past audio presentations are available at recoveryspeakers.com.

0:45

[00 00:43.979 – 00:00:53.240] We are not affiliated with any 12-step organization, though our focus is on the history of AA and other 12-step fellowships.

0:53

[00 00:53.240 – 00:01:03.259] Recoveryspeakers.com is a 501[c][3] nonprofit dedicated to preserving and sharing the

0:58

[00 01:03.259 – 00:01:09.599] audio history of AA and the 12-step movement today and for future generations.

1:03

[00 01:09.599 – 00:01:19.599] We also send a daily email featuring a speaker talk from our archive, recordings from these meetings, and information on

1:11

[00 01:19.599 – 00:01:21.939] upcoming presentations.

1:12

[00 01:21.939 – 00:01:32.099] To subscribe, you can use the link that I shared in the chat a minute ago or send me an email at info@recoveryspeakers.com, and

1:22

[00 01:32.099 – 00:01:34.400] I can get you added to our email list.

1:26

[00 01:34.400 – 00:01:41.060] If you are able to support our we- our work, uh, contributions are appreciated.

1:32

[00 01:41.060 – 00:01:46.359] The donation link is in the chat, or you can use the QR code that is on the screen.

1:39

[00 01:46.359 – 00:01:56.739] And I have a bunch of flyers and announcements that I wanna share before we turn it over to Jim, so I'm gonna go through here

1:49

[00 01:56.739 – 00:01:58.280] just so everyone can see.

1:52

[00 01:58.280 – 00:02:02.280] Next week is Tradition 11 by Nancy Kay.

1:55

[00 02:02.280 – 00:02:11.319] And then here is the look for the rest of the month and into November, Conversation with a Longtimer.

2:02

[00 02:11.319 – 00:02:16.300] Nancy Kay coming back for Tradition 12, and then Mike F.

2:06

[00 02:16.300 – 00:02:21.439] will be doing a special two-part presentation on Living the 12 Traditions.

2:11

[00 02:21.439 – 00:02:31.659] And also, we just got locked in here for a couple dates in December, uh, Sam Shoemaker and the principles

2:19

[00 02:31.659 – 00:02:34.099] he passed on to us, and Hank P.

2:22

[00 02:34.099 – 00:02:41.020] I'll be sharing these flyers in the chat so you guys can save and, and share with friends.

2:29

[00 02:41.020 – 00:02:45.659] And that is it for announcements.

2:32

[00 02:45.659 – 00:02:49.219] Tonight we should have some time for Q&A at the end.

2:37

[00 02:49.219 – 00:02:53.800] Um, it might be three hours from now, but we should have some time for Q&A.

2:43

[00 02:53.800 – 00:03:02.020] Um, so if you have any questions throughout Jim's presentation, please write them down and be prepared to ask at the end of the meeting.

2:53

[00 03:02.020 – 00:03:08.639] I'm also going to close the chat right now, and I will open that back up at the end of the meeting.

3:02

[00 03:08.639 – 00:03:11.099] And that is it for me.

3:04

[00 03:11.099 – 00:03:19.699] Jim, thank you for being here and doing all the research on Tom Powers, and looking forward to hearing your presentation tonight.

3:13

[00 03:19.699 – 00:03:22.960] Yeah, thank you, Tim.

3:15

[00 03:22.960 – 00:03:30.219] And, uh, thanks, uh, thanks to Mike, uh, for inviting me.

3:19

[00 03:30.219 – 00:03:39.360] I'm, uh, always glad, uh, honored to be able to, uh, to share, um, to share our history.

3:27

[00 03:39.360 – 00:03:45.759] And, uh, if I can hit all the right buttons here.

3:31

[00 03:45.759 – 00:03:56.360] And we're gonna, gonna talk about two diverging paths, Tom Powers and Bill Wilson,

3:37

[00 03:56.360 – 00:04:02.280] the tale of recovery, LSD, spirituality, transformation, and much more.

3:41

[00 04:02.280 – 00:04:04.840] My name is Jim, and I'm an alcoholic.

3:44

[00 04:04.840 – 00:04:07.860] My sobriety date is March 5th, 1989.

3:47

[00 04:07.860 – 00:04:12.099] My home group is the First Things First group in Cancun, Mexico.

3:52

[00 04:12.099 – 00:04:22.199] And, uh, as advertised, uh, thanks to Recovery Speakers, I'm presenting tonight on Tom Powers, uh, his life

3:59

[00 04:22.199 – 00:04:30.040] with Bill Wilson, LSD, women, spiritism, depression, and his journey from AA to AAA.

4:05

[00 04:30.040 – 00:04:40.040] I mentioned to some people that when I, uh, did this presentation the first time and started researching a couple years ago, uh, I, I didn't think there was a whole

4:17

[00 04:40.040 – 00:04:43.339] lot of information on Tom, just bits and pieces.

4:20

[00 04:43.339 – 00:04:51.779] Well, uh, by now it's, it's worked its way up to about a two-hour presentation and, uh, with a lot of it.

4:29

[00 04:51.779 – 00:04:54.000] There is a lot of information that I have found.

4:33

[00 04:54.000 – 00:05:01.600] And, uh, so i- in the last part there, we're talking about his journey from AA to AAA.

4:40

[00 05:01.600 – 00:05:07.980] Now, you may have seen this on the internet, but, uh, you know, my name's Jim, and I'm an alcoholic.

4:48

[00 05:07.980 – 00:05:18.120] And then the American Automobile Association says, "This is AAA, not AA." And then I answer, "Yeah, well, I was just explaining

4:57

[00 05:18.120 – 00:05:28.360] how my car got in the lake." And, uh, but today when we're talking about AAA, we're talking about All Addicts Anonymous,

5:05

[00 05:28.360 – 00:05:32.490] uh, another program of recovery started by Tom Powers.

5:09

[00 05:32.490 – 00:05:43.220] Tom Edward Powers, the son of Thomas Francis and Catherine Votruba Powers, was born June 7th, 1911 in Chadron, Nebraska,

5:17

[00 05:43.220 – 00:05:49.459] that in 1910 had a population of 2,687.

5:19

[00 05:49.459 – 00:05:59.639] And there are a lot of, uh, Tom has a lot of, uh, recordings, um, on Recovery Speakers, a

5:27

[00 05:59.639 – 00:06:00.968] lot of other places there.

5:29

[00 06:00.968 – 00:06:03.060] Uh, he tells his story a lot.

5:32

[00 06:03.060 – 00:06:06.160] And, uh, I just picked, uh, picked this one.

5:36

[00 06:06.160 – 00:06:11.240] I have several of them with each one different details, but this is one of them.

5:42

[00 06:11.240 – 00:06:20.839] And, uh, he, uh, uh, talks about, "I was brought up in a Christian home in the Middle West and educated in the Christian faith.

5:52

[00 06:20.839 – 00:06:25.180] My parents and teachers did not overdo it, but neither did they underdo it.

5:57

[00 06:25.180 – 00:06:34.920] By the time I was 12, I knew the main points of the faith very well, believed them, and took them seriously as commandments and guides to living.

6:08

[00 06:34.920 – 00:06:46.399] In high school and in the first years of college, I, I came first to doubt the faith and then to disbelieve and reject it." And, uh, then,

6:19

[00 06:46.399 – 00:06:49.509] uh, later on, uh, as he became more into-

6:23

[00 06:49.648 – 00:06:51.268] intelligent as most of us do.

6:25

[00 06:51.268 – 00:06:57.828] I became an atheist, agnostic, liberal, rationalist, positive humanist scientist.

6:29

[00 06:57.828 – 00:07:07.508] And, uh, but then as life went on, uh, up there at the top on the right-hand side says, "Then gradually the whole subject lost interest for me.

6:40

[00 07:07.508 – 00:07:17.688] I was, I was so busy earning a living, I didn't have time for much thinking." He got to be quite big in the, in the advertising business working for a

6:52

[00 07:17.688 – 00:07:18.788] very important firm.

6:54

[00 07:18.788 – 00:07:24.568] And then down there at the bottom when, uh, and then he said, "The grace of God intervened.

7:01

[00 07:24.568 – 00:07:30.888] Things were going so well that, uh, as I see it now, it did not seem so at the time.

7:09

[00 07:30.888 – 00:07:33.208] It seemed like a dark tragedy.

7:11

[00 07:33.208 – 00:07:43.208] My health broke suddenly, radically, and I was not just sick, I was knocked right out." And, uh, then

7:19

[00 07:43.208 – 00:07:47.428] again, uh, perhaps you have heard about drowning man and straws.

7:23

[00 07:47.428 – 00:07:49.048] I didn't forge it.

7:25

[00 07:49.048 – 00:07:49.748] I couldn't.

7:26

[00 07:49.748 – 00:07:57.028] I came back to it, the thought again and again, hating it, hating the necessity, hating myself for doing it.

7:34

[00 07:57.028 – 00:07:59.668] I began to grope.

7:36

[00 07:59.668 – 00:08:10.018] And, uh, up there at the top, uh, the top right, uh, he says, "Then one day in the afternoon between 12:30 and 1:00,

7:45

[00 08:10.018 – 00:08:14.908] there occurred to me something far more important than birth or death.

7:50

[00 08:14.908 – 00:08:20.548] I saw as clear as the sun that I can never describe and what I can never forget.

7:57

[00 08:20.548 – 00:08:27.048] And whereas at 12:00 that day, I did not know that God is, but only faintly suspected it.

8:04

[00 08:27.048 – 00:08:34.308] At 1:30, I knew beyond all the arguments of the Earth that God is and that I am deathless in Him.

8:11

[00 08:34.308 – 00:08:44.528] My life was altered profoundly." Want to just mention real quickly that, uh, he had this spiritual experience very similar

8:19

[00 08:44.528 – 00:08:46.768] to, uh, one that Bill had in Towns Hospital.

8:23

[00 08:46.768 – 00:08:53.328] Uh, but he didn't have a Silkworth who came to him and said, uh, "Ah, don't worry about it.

8:31

[00 08:53.328 – 00:08:53.988] It's okay.

8:32

[00 08:53.988 – 00:08:56.628] You're probably better off now than you were before.

8:35

[00 08:56.628 – 00:09:00.148] Just hang on to it." Uh, quite the contrary.

8:39

[00 09:00.148 – 00:09:03.188] After he had his, they told him he was really nuts.

8:44

[00 09:03.188 – 00:09:13.588] Then he, uh, but then, uh, later on, uh, he goes to say, "I began to encounter others who had waked up,

8:52

[00 09:13.588 – 00:09:15.448] but more gently in most cases.

8:55

[00 09:15.448 – 00:09:20.567] They talked to me, and they were wonderfully wise and tolerant and understanding.

9:00

[00 09:20.567 – 00:09:30.288] One thing characterized both the suddens and the gentles, they knew what they were talking about." So he started his journey.

9:08

[00 09:30.288 – 00:09:36.388] Summer 1940, Tom was 29, and he goes to a Hartford retreat.

9:13

[00 09:36.388 – 00:09:45.928] Uh, before he gets sober, he'll go to Towns Hospital, uh, where he spends some time with, uh, Hank Parkhurst, who taught him a little bit about AA history.

9:24

[00 09:45.928 – 00:09:51.548] Not sure what kind of history AA, uh, Hank Parkhurst was, uh, talking in those days.

9:30

[00 09:51.548 – 00:09:56.798] But then he went to Gotham Hospital in Blythewood and Knickerbocker and probably some others.

9:36

[00 09:56.798 – 00:10:00.338] Just bounced around from one sanitarium to the other.

9:40

[00 10:00.338 – 00:10:04.228] In October of '41, he goes to his first meeting.

9:44

[00 10:04.228 – 00:10:14.228] Uh, there he, he says, uh, "One Wednesday evening in October 1941, there were some 30 men and women assembled in a small room in

9:53

[00 10:14.228 – 00:10:18.007] the east tower of the County Center building in White Plains, New York.

9:58

[00 10:18.007 – 00:10:22.408] As I entered the room, it was my first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous.

10:04

[00 10:22.408 – 00:10:32.428] I had no idea of the magnitude of the change I was exposing myself to." You can look up, uh, look up on the internet, the program

10:14

[00 10:32.428 – 00:10:33.488] is a life jacket.

10:16

[00 10:33.488 – 00:10:43.488] Uh, and it's, uh, a long story that, uh, he tells about the program and, uh, um, and how he, uh, he found it

10:25

[00 10:43.488 – 00:10:47.528] and, and how just the fellowship didn't work for him.

10:29

[00 10:47.528 – 00:10:54.128] And, uh, at the first meeting, it, I was both receptive and unreceptive.

10:35

[00 10:54.128 – 00:10:57.708] We are just gonna focus on the highlighted parts.

10:38

[00 10:57.708 – 00:11:00.468] Just I have a lot of text, so we'll just...

10:43

[00 11:00.468 – 00:11:10.627] He said, "I was a bad drinker, just out of my second trip to the mental institution in 14 months with the smell of Metrazol, the chemical used in shock treatments,

10:54

[00 11:10.627 – 00:11:20.988] still fresh in my nose and with the realization clear in my mind that compulsive alcoholic drinking was the cause of my trouble." And he took

11:04

[00 11:21.048 – 00:11:22.468] things seriously.

11:06

[00 11:22.468 – 00:11:31.748] In the fall of 1941, uh, while in Stamford, Connecticut, Tom meets Bill at an AA meeting in Greenwich for the first time.

11:14

[00 11:31.748 – 00:11:33.868] Tom described it this way.

11:16

[00 11:33.868 – 00:11:36.588] He said, Bill, about Bill, "He was talking about himself.

11:21

[00 11:36.588 – 00:11:40.448] He was telling the bedtime story, a variety of it.

11:25

[00 11:40.448 – 00:11:42.028] I don't remember the details.

11:27

[00 11:42.028 – 00:11:47.768] I was really screwed up mentally, but my instincts were all right, and he really galvanized me.

11:34

[00 11:47.768 – 00:11:50.468] He was authentic, and he was sincere.

11:37

[00 11:50.468 – 00:11:53.668] But you know, there are sincere fools in the world.

11:41

[00 11:53.668 – 00:11:55.208] The f- the field is crowded.

11:43

[00 11:55.208 – 00:11:58.808] This guy was right on balance on the spiritual stuff.

11:48

[00 11:58.808 – 00:12:01.168] He was the first crack in my armor.

11:51

[00 12:01.168 – 00:12:04.568] Authentificity, authenticity was a big part of it.

11:54

[00 12:04.568 – 00:12:12.788] I saw he was sane and for real." That's from a tape that Kathleen Noreen made, uh, of Tom P.

12:02

[00 12:12.788 – 00:12:19.388] talking, uh, in her presentation, in her research for her writing of Pass It On.

12:08

[00 12:19.388 – 00:12:24.588] She asked him, "Was Bill Wilson your sponsor?" "Yeah, but not in the first year.

12:14

[00 12:24.588 – 00:12:28.858] I went into this meeting, and you'd see the light surrounding Bill.

12:19

[00 12:28.858 – 00:12:31.608] I'd get this tremendous sense of power when he was talking.

12:24

[00 12:31.608 – 00:12:39.968] Afterward, I approached him, and I said, 'I want what you got.' And he said, 'Okay, hang around and talk to me afterward,' and we went from there.

12:35

[00 12:39.968 – 00:12:45.188] I stayed sober for 11 months, and then I decided I would have what they call a slip.

12:42

[00 12:45.188 – 00:12:49.348] I figured if it doesn't go well, I'll go back and be a success in AA.

12:48

[00 12:49.348 – 00:12:52.288] The problem was I couldn't get sober again.

12:52

[00 12:52.288 – 00:12:56.168] Instead of going to two meetings a week, I started going to four.

12:57

[00 12:56.168 – 00:13:06.778] I did everything on earth to save my soul." "Were you talking to Wilson during that time?" "Oh, all the time." "Was he frustrated with you?"

13:07

[00 13:06.778 – 00:13:07.528] "Once in a while.

13:09

[00 13:07.528 – 00:13:09.628] He was a marvelous guy.

13:11

[00 13:09.628 – 00:13:12.268] He and I had ferocious fights like cats and dogs.

13:15

[00 13:12.268 – 00:13:17.148] He got so tired of me that he would put me over to Lu- Lois.

13:21

[00 13:17.148 – 00:13:20.458] I was hospitalized nine times in the last year.

13:25

[00 13:20.458 – 00:13:23.058] I hit a s- hospital every six weeks.

13:28

[00 13:23.058 – 00:13:33.148] I finally got sober on October 10th, 1946." "What kind of sponsor was Bill?" "He just kept complaining that none of the people he

13:37

[00 13:33.148 – 00:13:39.018] sponsored ever got sober, which was true." "Did you call him in the middle of the ni-"

13:44

[00 13:39.770 – 00:13:43.150] I usually call him Lois because he was very cranky about being called.

13:49

[00 13:43.150 – 00:13:46.330] He was a very faithful and good man as a sponsor.

13:54

[00 13:46.330 – 00:13:48.530] How many people did he sponsor?

13:57

[00 13:48.530 – 00:13:50.770] Oh, it's got to be hundreds.

13:59

[00 13:50.770 – 00:13:56.369] The basic thing that kept you from getting sober was the God business, right?

14:05

[00 13:56.369 – 00:13:57.610] Right.

14:06

[00 13:57.610 – 00:14:00.490] I couldn't get it down.

14:08

[00 14:00.490 – 00:14:08.550] It's a peculiar thing after you have a spiritual experience, you see things in a different way, but then all the old stuff washes back.

14:18

[00 14:08.550 – 00:14:11.460] Your whole former self is apt to come back.

14:21

[00 14:11.460 – 00:14:16.360] Sometime in 1946, I got through the God thing, and that's where it turned around.

14:27

[00 14:16.360 – 00:14:26.390] And then to, to go back to the ending of this, uh, version of his story, he says, "I desperately needed to learn, and I was hungry to

14:38

[00 14:26.390 – 00:14:31.930] learn, so I read the Bhagavad Gita and the Dhammapada and the Tao Te Ching.

14:44

[00 14:31.930 – 00:14:34.270] I studied Hinduism and Buddhism.

14:46

[00 14:34.270 – 00:14:36.370] I owe the East a great deal.

14:49

[00 14:36.370 – 00:14:46.550] She instructed me when I was very young indeed, and best of all, like a wise and good mother, she sent me back to my Lord Jesus Christ." So

15:00

[00 14:46.550 – 00:14:50.490] he, uh, he found his, uh, his niche.

15:04

[00 14:50.490 – 00:15:00.890] Coming back to Christianity in this way, I began to see that the tumbling confusion of sex- sects was a surface phenomenon, that behind

15:13

[00 15:00.890 – 00:15:11.250] the mass of dead and live leaves, there was a really live tree with small branches, and although the terrible winds of evil continually toss and tear at it, Christianity

15:25

[00 15:11.250 – 00:15:16.990] is so great a tree that no Western man, and perhaps no human being, can stand away from it.

15:32

[00 15:16.990 – 00:15:26.190] Um, he ended up, uh, with, with Christianity and, uh, and started his journey.

15:38

[00 15:26.190 – 00:15:32.340] Spiritism, seances, Ouija boards, channeling, and things that go bump in the night.

15:43

[00 15:32.340 – 00:15:38.910] Bill and Lois came to hold frequent Saturday evening spook sessions at Stepping Stones.

15:49

[00 15:38.910 – 00:15:42.670] Joined by such friends as Anne and DeVoe, Ruth and Wilbur, Tom P.

15:54

[00 15:42.670 – 00:15:43.750] and Adelaide, and Dr.

15:56

[00 15:43.750 – 00:15:45.650] Bob and Annie when they were in town.

15:59

[00 15:45.650 – 00:15:55.830] They would conduct various psychic experiments, often involving a Ouija board, in a downstairs bedroom that was quickly dubbed by Anne Bingham as the spook room.

16:09

[00 15:55.830 – 00:16:06.550] Soon after Bill sobered up, he came to think of himself as, uh, a- as s- having some psychic ability and believed he was capable

16:19

[00 16:06.550 – 00:16:10.690] of picking up energy from others, even those who had passed from this life.

16:25

[00 16:10.690 – 00:16:20.870] His belief in clairvoyance and other extrasensory manifestations came from his deeply held conviction, following his spiritual experience, that life

16:33

[00 16:20.870 – 00:16:23.930] after life is a matter of fact as well as faith.

16:37

[00 16:23.930 – 00:16:28.570] This led to his attempts to get in touch with other lives and other times.

16:43

[00 16:28.570 – 00:16:31.610] Both he and Lois had discovered early on that Dr.

16:47

[00 16:31.610 – 00:16:36.690] Bob and Annie Smith also had a great interest in extrasensory phenomena.

16:52

[00 16:36.690 – 00:16:44.710] Bill had met Gerald Heard and Aldous Huxley in the early 1940s.

16:57

[00 16:44.710 – 00:16:50.810] There are several references to Wilson-Huxley meetings in the Wilson-Heard correspondence.

17:02

[00 16:50.810 – 00:17:00.890] Quote, "If you see, uh, Aldous Huxley, take him my regard and my renewed thanks for those engaging hours we spent together." End quote.

17:11

[00 17:00.890 – 00:17:04.250] Wilson writes in an October 1950 letter to Heard.

17:14

[00 17:04.250 – 00:17:07.770] Heard responded to the letter within days of receiving it.

17:18

[00 17:07.770 – 00:17:18.250] Heard begins his reply to Wilson by suggesting that he and Aldous Huxley get together with Tom Powers, a close Wilson associate, for another seance.

17:28

[00 17:18.250 – 00:17:28.290] This foursome, Heard writes to Wilson, might uncover still another chapter of your pioneering and explore, both for the insane and the so-called sane,

17:38

[00 17:28.290 – 00:17:33.110] the border country of psychical research of which you know so much.

17:42

[00 17:33.110 – 00:17:42.590] Later on, a lot of this, uh, was going on while, while Tom was still kind of an atheist materialist and, uh...

17:51

[00 17:42.590 – 00:17:52.950] But later on, one of the members of the Chappaqua AA group, uh, Tom P., remembers that although he had participated in seances with Bill

18:01

[00 17:52.950 – 00:18:02.400] in his atheist days, he and, and a group of fellow recovering alcoholics got so upset about Bill's spooking that they decided to do something about it.

18:11

[00 18:02.400 – 00:18:07.710] Uh, since Wilson never wanted to be a leader, he was not declined to listen to anybody.

18:18

[00 18:07.710 – 00:18:13.770] Um, another one of the men, Tony Guggenheim, wrote to a man they all respected, C.S.

18:25

[00 18:13.770 – 00:18:24.040] Lewis at Cambridge, England, to describe Bill's and Lois's activities and to ask what Lewis, a theologian, Anglican theologian, a writer,

18:33

[00 18:24.040 – 00:18:26.930] I think most of you probably know him or heard of him.

18:38

[00 18:26.930 – 00:18:31.470] Uh, Tom remembers that Lewis wrote back with total disapproval.

18:42

[00 18:31.470 – 00:18:33.850] "This is necromancy," he wrote.

18:44

[00 18:33.850 – 00:18:43.950] "Have nothing to do with it." Apparently, Bill's colleagues thought that an indictment from a man like Lewis would influence Bill to change his private beliefs.

18:55

[00 18:43.950 – 00:18:48.330] Apparently, they did not know Bill Wilson very well.

18:58

[00 18:48.330 – 00:18:58.570] I, there's a two-hour presentation on the Bill Wilson's life and lifelong fight with and recovery from depression.

19:05

[00 18:58.570 – 00:19:05.190] I think most of us know that, uh, Bill was abandoned by his parents when he was about ten, 11 years old.

19:14

[00 19:05.190 – 00:19:15.830] Um, lost his first girlfriend who, who, who died and, uh, he, he went into some deep depression early in his life and had other, many other,

19:24

[00 19:15.830 – 00:19:21.310] uh, instances, uh, later on, even after sober in the 1940s particularly.

19:29

[00 19:21.310 – 00:19:31.690] He went to two, uh, psychiatrists, Francis Wicks and, uh, Harry Tebow, and, uh, did a lot of work with Father Dowling, of course, uh, on his depression.

19:40

[00 19:31.690 – 00:19:42.330] Tom says, "Up to forty-- 1946 when I was here in Chappaqua, my relationship with Bill was as a friend, and I was involved with him because

19:50

[00 19:42.330 – 00:19:48.350] I had been a depressive, and he at that time was having these God-awful troubles with depression.

19:57

[00 19:48.350 – 00:19:56.430] So I used to relate to him largely out of that bag." There was something else that they shared, um, depression.

20:05

[00 19:56.430 – 00:19:58.850] Um, Dr.

20:06

[00 19:58.850 – 00:20:06.630] Jack Norris, GSO, you know, you can't separate organic depression from psychological depression.

20:11

[00 20:06.630 – 00:20:08.290] It's a matter of energy.

20:14

[00 20:08.290 – 00:20:12.250] Not all of depression is in the, in the head or in the spirit.

20:19

[00 20:12.250 – 00:20:15.430] You know, there's organic parts of it too.

20:23

[00 20:15.430 – 00:20:19.090] Tom had his own theory of Bill's depressions.

20:26

[00 20:19.090 – 00:20:24.450] He said they res- res- result through indirect-- though indirect of the hot flash.

20:32

[00 20:24.450 – 00:20:27.490] Tom interpreted both in terms of mystic experience.

20:35

[00 20:27.490 – 00:20:28.640] Tom-

20:36

[00 20:28.732 – 00:20:36.222] Tom said the thing Bill had was perfectly clear, clear case of Satori or Somate, um, enlightenment.

20:43

[00 20:36.222 – 00:20:39.492] You know, by their fruits, you shall know them.

20:46

[00 20:39.492 – 00:20:43.032] The guy goes out and starts to act like an enlightened man.

20:51

[00 20:43.032 – 00:20:46.272] No one ever went further to prove it than that man did.

20:56

[00 20:46.272 – 00:20:49.752] He led a life of total service, talking about Bill Wilson.

21:01

[00 20:49.752 – 00:20:56.612] That's okay a year or two, but what about after the damn thing began to burgeon, began to spread?

21:08

[00 20:56.612 – 00:21:06.712] Uh, he would come back from these trips that he made all around the country, and he'd be dragged from, uh, like, like he'd been dragged from one end of New York

21:21

[00 21:06.712 – 00:21:07.212] to the other.

21:22

[00 21:07.212 – 00:21:15.032] Uh, he was just, uh, beat up, and his depressions were largely exhaustion, spiritual exhaustion.

21:28

[00 21:15.032 – 00:21:17.332] Excuse me.

21:29

[00 21:17.332 – 00:21:20.152] Tom Powers in AA Literature.

21:31

[00 21:20.152 – 00:21:27.972] These three books, uh, he helped these three books, um, with, with these three books and also some, uh, Grapevine.

21:39

[00 21:27.972 – 00:21:32.152] He was actually hired in nineteen forty-eight by AA as a writer.

21:44

[00 21:32.152 – 00:21:37.412] Nineteen fifty-one to fifty-two, Tom and Bill worked on the Twelve and Twelve.

21:49

[00 21:37.412 – 00:21:43.452] Fifty-two, Tom and Ginny divorced and moves with the kids to Chappaqua, the house on the right there.

21:57

[00 21:43.452 – 00:21:48.852] Fifty-four and fifty-five, Tom works on the second edition of the AA Big Book.

22:02

[00 21:48.852 – 00:21:54.832] Uh, fifty-four to fifty-seven, Tom starts to research, uh, info into LSD.

22:07

[00 21:54.832 – 00:22:05.392] Gerald Hurd starts LSD in fifty-four and reports of it to Tom and Bill for two or three years before they start LSD sessions in fifty-six.

22:17

[00 22:05.392 – 00:22:07.842] Fifty-five, AA's St.

22:19

[00 22:07.842 – 00:22:08.952] Louis Convention.

22:20

[00 22:08.952 – 00:22:12.772] Fifty-six and fifty-seven, Tom works on AA Comes of Age.

22:24

[00 22:12.772 – 00:22:16.452] Tom is the main speaker at Founders Day in Akron, Ohio.

22:28

[00 22:16.452 – 00:22:20.372] Fifty-seven, there's talk about a TV show.

22:31

[00 22:20.372 – 00:22:30.912] Some points in, uh, some point in there, Bill and Tom take a trip to California, and, uh, they consulted on the TV play,

22:41

[00 22:30.912 – 00:22:36.711] uh, at, uh, in Playhouse 90 of the Days of Wine and Roses.

22:46

[00 22:36.711 – 00:22:42.392] In fact, this is a letter from CBS, uh, thanking them for that cons-consultation.

22:51

[00 22:42.392 – 00:22:43.972] Mel B.

22:52

[00 22:43.972 – 00:22:50.592] says that if a social movement is to survive, I've read it needs a reliable body of writings from its founders.

23:01

[00 22:50.592 – 00:23:00.592] Down there, the second, next paragraph, he says, "I discussed this once over the phone with Tom P., the former advertising writer who had assisted Bill in writing Twelve

23:12

[00 23:00.592 – 00:23:01.812] Steps and Twelve Traditions.

23:14

[00 23:01.812 – 00:23:08.552] Tom acknowledged that he had helped improve Bill's work on this book, but he had also done it sparingly.

23:21

[00 23:08.552 – 00:23:18.632] He recognized that Bill had a special quality as a communicator that needed to be retained." Something very, uh, really

23:29

[00 23:18.632 – 00:23:27.672] interesting, uh, is that by 1953, it was evident that the personal stories in the first edition, uh, were out, were date, outdated.

23:38

[00 23:27.672 – 00:23:30.432] Of the twenty-eight veterans, stories were represented.

23:41

[00 23:30.432 – 00:23:31.932] Five had gone back to drinking.

23:43

[00 23:31.932 – 00:23:38.532] Eight more had slipped after the book was published, but had come back, and fifteen had remained continuously sober.

23:51

[00 23:38.532 – 00:23:41.892] Again, just the highlighted part for the second edition.

23:55

[00 23:41.892 – 00:23:51.292] Bill went out of his way to include one story that had been conspicuously missing from the first, that of Bill D., AA number three.

24:04

[00 23:51.292 – 00:24:01.672] So that was, Bill was responsible for getting many of the other stories for the second edition himself, taping the experiences of old-timers

24:13

[00 24:01.672 – 00:24:03.672] which he thought were particularly helpful.

24:16

[00 24:03.672 – 00:24:11.292] Others were asked to write or record their stories with a view to showing the broader range of the membership in the mid-fifties.

24:25

[00 24:11.292 – 00:24:21.971] All these stories were thoroughly screened, and in the presentation of the second edition, Bill was assisted by Ed B., Tom P.,

24:34

[00 24:21.972 – 00:24:24.052] and Neil Wing.

24:35

[00 24:24.052 – 00:24:27.492] Um, Ernie Kurtz, uh, has this note.

24:38

[00 24:27.492 – 00:24:33.732] He says that, uh, most perceptive summary of an old-timer by an old-timer, Tom P.

24:44

[00 24:33.732 – 00:24:40.072] made, uh, some comments about AA certainly has turned out to be a middle-class, largely white phenomenon.

24:51

[00 24:40.072 – 00:24:47.191] But at the time we were selecting our stories, we were not enough aware of this trend to be concerned with it as a problem.

25:01

[00 24:47.191 – 00:24:55.711] I think in those days, we felt that our spread was pretty broad and democratic in nineteen fifty-two, fifty-three.

25:08

[00 24:55.711 – 00:25:03.952] Um, how broad and democratic it was is, uh, uh, has changed over the years.

25:14

[00 25:03.952 – 00:25:14.332] But this was a big job that Bill and, uh, Tom worked on together to do a little bit of what's called literary

25:23

[00 25:14.332 – 00:25:16.332] criticism, although it's not criticism.

25:26

[00 25:16.332 – 00:25:22.172] It's, uh, investigation and interpretation of, uh, literature.

25:29

[00 25:22.172 – 00:25:26.612] Just to take AA number three's story, uh, it had not appeared.

25:34

[00 25:26.612 – 00:25:30.492] Uh, of course, Bill Dotson was AA number three.

25:38

[00 25:30.492 – 00:25:36.872] He'd gotten sober in, uh, uh, June, June, July of nineteen thirty-five.

25:42

[00 25:36.872 – 00:25:46.912] Um, in his story, he talks about, well, in the story, it talks about phrases that

25:49

[00 25:46.912 – 00:25:49.172] were not common in nineteen thirty-five.

25:51

[00 25:49.172 – 00:25:56.772] Phrases like higher power and hitting bottom, and I admitted that I was completely powerless over alcohol.

25:58

[00 25:56.772 – 00:26:01.012] Um, you can quit for twenty-four hours, can't you?

26:02

[00 26:01.012 – 00:26:08.372] And, uh, the editors, uh, even jump in and do a couple of paragraphs openly there.

26:08

[00 26:08.372 – 00:26:14.272] And, uh, I, it talks about the higher power and doing some sort of inventory.

26:14

[00 26:14.272 – 00:26:22.912] Like most of us when we tell our story today about what happened when we came in, we use the vocabulary that we know today.

26:24

[00 26:22.912 – 00:26:33.232] And that's, uh, with this one too, uh, it was written and edited to reflect nineteen fifty-five beliefs

26:31

[00 26:33.232 – 00:26:39.012] ra- and vocabulary rather than what really happened in nineteen thirty-five.

26:36

[00 26:39.012 – 00:26:45.652] Another interesting story with it they used was Nancy Flynn, the, the independent blonde.

26:41

[00 26:45.652 – 00:26:50.072] Uh, she said, "We had several writers around then, and they wrote my story.

26:47

[00 26:50.072 – 00:26:51.272] I didn't write the story.

26:49

[00 26:51.272 – 00:26:52.912] Someone wrote it for me.

26:51

[00 26:52.912 – 00:26:55.252] I don't even remember being interviewed.

26:54

[00 26:55.252 – 00:26:57.092] I never thought much about my story.

26:57

[00 26:57.092 – 00:27:05.012] I don't even think I knew it was in the big book." So some people didn't know their story was in the book.

27:06

[00 27:05.012 – 00:27:15.832] Uh, um, they were written and rewritten and highly edited by, uh, people before they went into the book, primarily

27:14

[00 27:15.832 – 00:27:17.502] by Bill and Tom Powers.

27:16

[00 27:19.008 – 00:27:26.128] Uh, the text that you see on the board was, was written, uh, by a guy by the name of, uh, of Dick B.

27:26

[00 27:26.128 – 00:27:34.178] And, uh, he says that the writer of the story, he sold himself short, claims that Dr.

27:32

[00 27:34.178 – 00:27:44.188] Bob spent three or four hours, um, uh, with the six steps of complete def- deflation, dependence and guidance, moral inventory, confession,

27:41

[00 27:44.188 – 00:27:44.768] et cetera.

27:42

[00 27:44.768 – 00:27:49.708] Um, and, uh, like I say, that's, uh, the historian Dick B.

27:47

[00 27:49.708 – 00:27:59.738] The fact that he says the writer of the story, uh, shows that he does not believe that, uh, uh, Earl actually wrote that

27:56

[00 27:59.738 – 00:28:00.968] story.

27:57

[00 28:00.968 – 00:28:11.048] And, uh, now just although as seen in the two great presentations by Mike in the last two weeks, and I, I'm sure, uh,

28:06

[00 28:11.048 – 00:28:21.408] we can make those, uh, those links available to, uh, anybody who hasn't seen them, just great presentations, um, on the, uh, uh,

28:15

[00 28:21.408 – 00:28:24.168] quote six steps that, that Mike did.

28:18

[00 28:24.168 – 00:28:25.528] Just great presentations.

28:20

[00 28:25.528 – 00:28:27.247] I highly recommend them.

28:22

[00 28:27.247 – 00:28:37.288] Uh, most of the spiritual principles of what Bill calls the six steps were being practiced in various forms and interpretations by some of the members in some of the meetings,

28:34

[00 28:37.288 – 00:28:45.158] particularly in Akron Oxford group meetings in the Flying Blind period of 1935 to 1939.

28:39

[00 28:45.158 – 00:28:55.548] Most AA historians agree that this story is a 1955 re-imagining or updating of

28:44

[00 28:55.548 – 00:29:00.328] what was actually occurring in 1937 when Earl got sober.

28:48

[00 29:00.328 – 00:29:10.588] Similar to AA number three's story of using 1955, uh, vocabulary or Fitz's story, uh,

28:54

[00 29:10.588 – 00:29:13.548] that was radically edited in the first edition.

28:57

[00 29:13.548 – 00:29:15.828] We can talk about later if you want.

29:01

[00 29:15.828 – 00:29:25.848] Furthermore, again, even though some of the principles were being practiced in different forms, there is no evidence of any mention that Bill

29:10

[00 29:25.848 – 00:29:35.888] or anyone of any s- of any specific six steps before the late 1940s, and that's when Bill started talking about the six steps

29:19

[00 29:35.888 – 00:29:37.208] in the late 1940s.

29:21

[00 29:37.208 – 00:29:48.028] Bill Shayberg in writing the big book says, "I'm siding with Ernie Kurtz, who noted that the formulation of these six steps was contrived by Wilson." Glenn

29:31

[00 29:48.028 – 00:29:58.148] Chestnut says, "There's no evidence that there was any formal set of six steps being listed and followed by people in AA prior to Bill Wilson writing the 12 steps in December

29:43

[00 29:58.148 – 00:30:08.388] 1938." People who like things neat and tidy with thing, lists to memorize tend to get carried away with the idea of six steps and start imagining

29:53

[00 30:08.388 – 00:30:13.108] early AA meetings with a window shade mounted on the wall with the six steps.

29:59

[00 30:13.108 – 00:30:17.688] Um, and, uh, Dick B.

30:02

[00 30:17.688 – 00:30:27.848] to go back has a very long article, um, of which I have some, uh, just some excerpts here, and he, he puts these, the word

30:12

[00 30:27.848 – 00:30:32.668] of mouth program and six steps in what today we call air quotes.

30:17

[00 30:32.668 – 00:30:34.088] They're called scare quotes.

30:19

[00 30:34.088 – 00:30:38.238] Um, but, uh, he talks about Bill.

30:22

[00 30:38.238 – 00:30:47.468] Bill usually stated or implied that the 12 steps evolved out of six predecessor practices, principles, elements or steps.

30:29

[00 30:47.468 – 00:30:51.648] Uh, he uses as an example the personal story of one of Dr.

30:34

[00 30:51.648 – 00:30:54.008] Bob's sponsees, Earl T.

30:36

[00 30:54.008 – 00:30:56.048] Uh, Dick B.

30:38

[00 30:56.048 – 00:30:59.748] says first some of the language is simply not that employed by Dr.

30:43

[00 30:59.748 – 00:31:00.328] Bob.

30:44

[00 31:00.328 – 00:31:02.088] Complete deflation.

30:45

[00 31:02.088 – 00:31:06.308] That's, that's a Bill Wilson phrase from start to finish.

30:49

[00 31:06.308 – 00:31:10.308] Uh, he says he got it from, uh, William James.

30:53

[00 31:10.308 – 00:31:16.048] Well, he didn't exactly, but, uh, Bill uses that word, uh, a lot, complete deflation.

30:59

[00 31:16.048 – 00:31:17.108] Uh, Dr.

31:00

[00 31:17.108 – 00:31:17.977] Bob doesn't.

31:01

[00 31:17.977 – 00:31:20.148] Uh, later on, uh, Dick B.

31:04

[00 31:20.148 – 00:31:21.368] says, I-- Dick B.

31:06

[00 31:21.368 – 00:31:25.408] says, "I have not found a single examp- single example of Dr.

31:11

[00 31:25.408 – 00:31:29.108] Bob's ever referring to a higher power." Dr.

31:14

[00 31:29.108 – 00:31:34.988] Bob, God was God, you know, or the Lord or the Heavenly Father or the Master.

31:20

[00 31:34.988 – 00:31:45.228] Um, and, uh, the other thing is, is that neither Earl nor his wife, neither, neither one of them is quoting, is mentioning anything

31:30

[00 31:45.228 – 00:31:49.788] about any steps in any of their talks, uh, anywhere else.

31:34

[00 31:49.788 – 00:31:53.488] Um, uh, there, it, uh...

31:37

[00 31:53.488 – 00:32:00.048] In any case, both Bill and Tom did a lot of creative writing and editing of the stories in the second edition.

31:45

[00 32:00.048 – 00:32:10.048] On June 16th, 1954, at Founders' Day, Bill says, "I hope you're going to like this new book," this,

31:52

[00 32:10.048 – 00:32:20.108] the second edition, "and if you do like it, you can credit Tom with 50% of your liking, because he's the guy who most painstakingly edited it," and the 12

32:03

[00 32:20.108 – 00:32:22.708] steps and 12 traditions before that.

32:06

[00 32:22.708 – 00:32:29.108] This book was published in 1957 under the title Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age.

32:11

[00 32:29.108 – 00:32:34.388] Um, uh, superb editing by his old friend Tom P.

32:15

[00 32:34.388 – 00:32:42.867] Um, Bill's insistence on acknowledging every individual's contribution kept it from being the straightforward history he intended.

32:22

[00 32:42.867 – 00:32:45.168] I thank, uh, Brad P.

32:24

[00 32:45.168 – 00:32:48.148] who, uh, who passed this letter on to me.

32:28

[00 32:48.148 – 00:32:58.348] That was actually for carbon copy, was found in the file cabinet belonging to Tom Powers at, uh, East Ridge, is where he, where he lived.

32:38

[00 32:58.348 – 00:33:01.228] It's a letter from Bill to Eugene Exman.

32:41

[00 33:01.228 – 00:33:11.248] Um, and, uh, I think most of you know that, uh, both the 12 and 12 and AA Comes of Age, besides being published by,

32:50

[00 33:11.248 – 00:33:15.388] uh, AA, were also published for a while by Harper & Brothers.

32:55

[00 33:15.388 – 00:33:25.468] And, uh, Bill writes and he says, "Gentlemen, referring to the coming publication by you of AA Comes of Age, of which I am the author, I wish

33:06

[00 33:25.468 – 00:33:34.988] to make the following disposition of my royalty of 15% for the duration of the first copyright or for the duration of the time you continue to distribute.

33:16

[00 33:34.988 – 00:33:42.328] In advance of this publication, I would like to assign my royalties to the following people for services rendered.

33:24

[00 33:42.328 – 00:33:48.308] On the first 5,000 books, I would like my royalty equally divided between Mr.

33:29

[00 33:48.308 – 00:33:58.348] Tom Powers of Chappaqua, New York and Miss Nell Wing of New York City." Um, Bill Wilson,

33:36

[00 33:58.348 – 00:34:00.368] women and womanizing.

33:37

[00 34:00.368 – 00:34:02.348] Womanizing.

33:38

[00 34:02.348 – 00:34:06.088] And, uh, I'll use a quote from the big book.

33:42

[00 34:06.088 – 00:34:07.678] Uh, some-

33:43

[00 34:07.830 – 00:34:13.330] People think it might be self-serving, but Bill wrote, "We want to stay out of this controversy.

33:50

[00 34:13.330 – 00:34:16.450] We do not want to be the arbiters of anyone's sex conduct.

33:55

[00 34:16.450 – 00:34:26.670] God alone can judge our sex situation." Tom himself had been sexually compulsive even after he quit drinking,

34:02

[00 34:26.670 – 00:34:30.690] and he found it very hard to change his behavior.

34:06

[00 34:30.690 – 00:34:40.810] "Compulsive sex can be just like alcoholic drinking or drug abuse," he said, "and it's, it's just like gambling or spending money you don't have or eating yourself

34:17

[00 34:40.810 – 00:34:41.570] into a stupor.

34:18

[00 34:41.570 – 00:34:52.610] It's also all supposed to be a lot of fun, but when the party is over, you feel worse about yourself than you did before, so you go out and do it all over again." Tom

34:32

[00 34:52.610 – 00:35:02.030] said that it took him five years after he quit drinking to change his behavior in this area, and for five years after that, he tried to get Bill to change, too.

34:45

[00 35:02.030 – 00:35:07.650] According to Tom, Bill's behavior caused some of the most ardent admirers to break with him.

34:51

[00 35:07.650 – 00:35:17.330] There of course being no record of any of that happening, uh, of other ardent admirers breaking with him.

34:58

[00 35:17.330 – 00:35:25.430] Powers told Wilson that he thought his struggle with depression was caused, at least in part, by the guilt he felt over his unfaithfulness to Lois.

35:09

[00 35:25.430 – 00:35:28.210] "Bill would always agree with me.

35:11

[00 35:28.210 – 00:35:38.390] 'I know,' he'd say, 'you're right.' Then just when I thought we were finally getting somewhere, he'd say, 'But I just can't, I can't give it up.'" Powers continues, "When I would press

35:25

[00 35:38.390 – 00:35:42.030] him as to why the hell not, he would start rationalizing.

35:30

[00 35:42.030 – 00:35:51.570] What would really kill me is when he'd say, 'Well, you know, Lois has always been like a mother to me,' which somehow was supposed to make it all right for him to cheat on her.

35:44

[00 35:51.570 – 00:36:00.750] Besides what he was doing to the women he was chasing and to Lois," Powers said, "his behavior was a huge source of controversy in AA.

35:54

[00 36:00.750 – 00:36:10.990] He would be very blatant about it, and there were times when it seemed like the reaction to a particularly flagrant episode would end up destroying everything he had worked for,

36:06

[00 36:10.990 – 00:36:18.090] but then people would scurry around and smooth things over and cover it all up." That's what Tom Powers says.

36:14

[00 36:18.090 – 00:36:28.110] This is just a, a picture of, uh, Bill, uh, with Helen Winn and, uh, and Sir, uh, uh,

36:21

[00 36:28.110 – 00:36:37.330] David Doug, uh, Hawkins, uh, who was another renowned psychiatrist, physician, researcher, and spiritual teacher at the time.

36:29

[00 36:37.330 – 00:36:40.210] That's at, uh, in, in Helen's house.

36:32

[00 36:40.210 – 00:36:50.410] In, uh, uh, Gary, uh, who was here tonight, uh, uh, wrote the great book, uh, uh,

36:38

[00 36:50.410 – 00:37:00.450] Bobby B: The Untold Story of AA's Fantastic, uh, Communicator, uh, mentioned that there are five books known to allege some kind

36:47

[00 37:00.450 – 00:37:06.010] of, of sexual impropriety by Bill, though at least, through at least part of his life.

36:53

[00 37:06.010 – 00:37:13.050] The books are Getting Better: Inside Alcoholics Anonymous; My Name Is Bill by Susan Cheever; Bill W.

37:00

[00 37:13.050 – 00:37:15.130] by Frances Hardinge; Bill W.

37:02

[00 37:15.130 – 00:37:15.460] and Mr.

37:03

[00 37:15.460 – 00:37:20.770] W.; and, uh, Dreaming Hard Luck and Good Times in America by Carolyn C.

37:09

[00 37:20.770 – 00:37:30.850] Uh, in, in none of them, uh, is there any mention of Bill, um, having, uh, having any philandering with,

37:17

[00 37:30.850 – 00:37:31.530] uh, with Bobby.

37:18

[00 37:31.530 – 00:37:35.910] Uh, but in those, uh, they, they are mentioned.

37:22

[00 37:35.910 – 00:37:46.110] Now, Tom Powers had, uh, had been a close friend of, of Bill Wilson's during the '40s and '50s, and in the mid-'50s they had a tumultuous falling

37:34

[00 37:46.110 – 00:37:46.390] out.

37:35

[00 37:46.390 – 00:37:52.390] And it was then that he began spreading stories about Bill's repeated illicit sexual conduct.

37:41

[00 37:52.390 – 00:37:55.570] Kurtz was significantly skeptical.

37:43

[00 37:55.570 – 00:38:04.170] Ernie Kurtz, of course the great AA historian, uh, was significantly skeptical about these accusations in the following recording.

37:50

[00 38:04.170 – 00:38:08.070] Um, A Respect for History is the name of the recording.

37:55

[00 38:08.070 – 00:38:15.090] You can, you can find it, uh, on the internet, Ernie Kurtz, uh, uh, Respect for History.

38:02

[00 38:15.090 – 00:38:22.210] And, uh, this is him talking about you need to have at least two solid sources.

38:08

[00 38:22.210 – 00:38:23.910] That's kind of the golden rule.

38:11

[00 38:23.910 – 00:38:32.550] I think in the first place, just the basic rules of history.

38:15

[00 38:32.550 – 00:38:41.989] You know, you got to have at least two independent sources saying the same thing to confirm something, and make sure that they are independent.

38:25

[00 38:41.989 – 00:38:49.510] Uh, to take an example, I, I had heard for years, this is after Knocked Out was published in more recent history, that Bill Wilson was a womanizer.

38:36

[00 38:49.510 – 00:38:52.490] Well, uh, this sort of bothered me.

38:39

[00 38:52.490 – 00:38:55.400] I f- I mean, people were saying this, and I was wondering, what's the base to that?

38:46

[00 38:55.400 – 00:38:59.250] And finally, I even used the History Lovers listserv to put out a query.

38:51

[00 38:59.250 – 00:39:02.170] I got in touch with the people who wrote the book saying this.

38:57

[00 39:02.170 – 00:39:11.130] Uh, uh, Fran Hardinge and Susan Cheever, uh, o- others have, have put this in a book, and I, I called them to say, "Where did, why did you say this?

39:09

[00 39:11.130 – 00:39:12.650] What was your evidence for this?" What...

39:12

[00 39:12.650 – 00:39:22.890] And, and I found that all the evidence came back to one person, uh, Tom P., who had worked with Bill in the 1940s and into the 1950s and

39:23

[00 39:22.890 – 00:39:24.410] had had a falling out with Bill.

39:26

[00 39:24.410 – 00:39:34.640] And he had offered this as an item of his knowledge, but there was no evidence beyond

39:33

[00 39:34.640 – 00:39:34.910] that.

39:34

[00 39:34.910 – 00:39:37.580] He didn't adduce any evidence for it, especially.

39:37

[00 39:37.580 – 00:39:43.510] And I found out that some of the stories that were spun supporting this, like there was a thing known as the Founders Watch.

39:46

[00 39:43.510 – 00:39:49.610] When Bill traveled, they had a committee sort of protect the maidens of the city from, from Bill's advances.

39:54

[00 39:49.610 – 00:39:59.700] And, uh, I followed that up with some cities that were mentioned, such as Chattanooga, Tennessee, and found out that nobody down there knew anything about it, uh, and th- this was just

40:07

[00 39:59.700 – 00:40:00.750] one of those rumors.

40:08

[00 40:00.750 – 00:40:10.850] So the, uh, I, I think the first thing is to make sure that you have, uh, evidence that you can rely upon, and that means going

40:19

[00 40:10.850 – 00:40:13.390] back not just to what somebody says, but where did they learn it?

40:24

[00 40:13.390 – 00:40:15.650] Follow it back as far as you can.

40:28

[00 40:15.650 – 00:40:22.490] All right, so that's, uh, what, what we know about that and Tom, uh, Tom Powers.

40:34

[00 40:22.490 – 00:40:25.250] Tom, Bill, they're friends, and LSD.

40:37

[00 40:25.250 – 00:40:35.610] In March, in, uh, Bill's second letter to, uh, Carl Jung, Bill says, "Lysergic acid is virtually harmless and quite non-addictive.

40:45

[00 40:35.610 – 00:40:40.430] Some of my AA friends and I have taken the material frequently and with much benefit.

40:51

[00 40:40.430 – 00:40:49.910] Once in the exper- experience, there is a great broadening and deepening and heightening of consciousness, which bears little or no relation to hallucination.

41:01

[00 40:49.910 – 00:40:55.450] Uh, more reality is seen and felt, not less.

41:04

[00 40:55.450 – 00:40:57.300] We've seen the whole range of-

41:07

[00 40:57.412 – 00:40:59.872] Valid spiritual experience in this manner.

41:10

[00 40:59.872 – 00:41:10.292] On my first trial several years ago, my original spontaneous spiritual experience of twenty-five years before in Towns Hospital was reenacted

41:18

[00 41:10.292 – 00:41:12.791] with wonderful splendor and conviction.

41:20

[00 41:12.791 – 00:41:22.792] In January 1944, Bill and Gerald Heard met for the first time at Trabuco College in California and began a pers-- It wasn't really a

41:29

[00 41:22.792 – 00:41:27.772] college, it was just a place where, uh, people got together and talked about these things.

41:36

[00 41:27.772 – 00:41:33.372] Began a personal, uh, friendship and collaboration that would continue over the next two decades.

41:42

[00 41:33.372 – 00:41:37.692] Tom Power often spoke of Heard as one of Bill Wilson's sponsors.

41:47

[00 41:37.692 – 00:41:48.192] Of course, during that time, Bill had two con- co-sponsors or spiritual directors, Father Ed Dowling and Gerald Heard, the philosopher

41:55

[00 41:48.192 – 00:41:51.342] who was deeply involved in Vedanta Hindu spirituality.

41:58

[00 41:51.342 – 00:41:55.692] It was Heard who introduced Bill Wilson to Aldous Huxley.

42:02

[00 41:55.692 – 00:42:05.732] On August twenty-ninth, nineteen fifty-six, Bill Wilson took LSD for the first time in California, taking the psychedelic drug under the supervision of

42:11

[00 42:05.732 – 00:42:05.922] Dr.

42:12

[00 42:05.922 – 00:42:11.652] Sidney Cohen, the psychiatrist at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Los Angeles.

42:17

[00 42:11.652 – 00:42:14.892] AA member Tom Powers was also there.

42:20

[00 42:14.892 – 00:42:24.892] Among those later invited to experiment with LSD and who accepted were Nell Wing, Father Dowling, uh, Lois, um,

42:28

[00 42:24.892 – 00:42:28.792] uh, Marty Mann, and Helen Wynne.

42:30

[00 42:28.792 – 00:42:38.792] Uh, Wilson wrote on, a month later, uh, in a letter to Heard, Bill wrote, "I do not think that in any

42:39

[00 42:38.792 – 00:42:48.992] way my state is re- is related to my experience in looking through the quote-unquote the doors of perception." Uh, that was, uh, The Doors

42:49

[00 42:48.992 – 00:42:51.652] of Perception was written by Aldous Huxley.

42:52

[00 42:51.652 – 00:42:58.252] Uh, it, Jim Morrison also got the name of the band The Doors from that book.

42:58

[00 42:58.252 – 00:43:00.492] But anyway, that's another story.

43:00

[00 43:00.492 – 00:43:10.732] But anyway, my looking through the doors of perception, in spite of my temporary condition, I do feel a residue of ins- assurance and a feeling of enhanced beauty

43:12

[00 43:10.732 – 00:43:12.912] that seems likely to stay by me.

43:15

[00 43:12.912 – 00:43:18.952] The, uh, Bill also says, "More and more it appears to me that the experience has done a sustained good.

43:22

[00 43:18.952 – 00:43:29.002] My reactions to things totally and in particular have very definitely improved for no other reason that I can see." Tom Powers says he's been thinking

43:33

[00 43:29.002 – 00:43:35.372] about the possibility of visiting you soon again with a friend with the idea of trying this out some more.

43:40

[00 43:35.372 – 00:43:45.372] Powers may have made that trip and returned to New York with a generous supply of the drug, for he and Wilson were certainly, uh, committed to trying this

43:52

[00 43:45.372 – 00:43:46.012] out some more.

43:53

[00 43:46.012 – 00:43:56.172] Uh, Wilson became so intrigued by the spiritual potential of LSD that he formed an experimental group in New York that included Father

44:02

[00 43:56.172 – 00:44:03.272] Ed Dowling, a Catholic priest, Eugene Exman, a religious editor at Harper Brothers, and others.

44:08

[00 44:03.272 – 00:44:08.112] Now, this is not a picture of Bill Wilson and his friends at an AA meeting.

44:15

[00 44:08.112 – 00:44:12.652] Um, this is, uh, not what LSD was.

44:18

[00 44:12.652 – 00:44:17.772] LSD is not what LSD became in the nineteen sixties.

44:22

[00 44:17.772 – 00:44:27.172] Um, there was psychedelic psychiatry in Saskatchewan, say that three times fast, going on, uh, already.

44:28

[00 44:27.172 – 00:44:28.952] There was a lot of scientific study.

44:31

[00 44:28.952 – 00:44:33.372] These were being done by Humphry Osmond and, uh, and Abram Hoffer.

44:36

[00 44:33.372 – 00:44:43.542] Uh, there was a lot of scientific study to see, uh, if, uh, if the psychedelics, if LSD could help, um,

44:45

[00 44:43.542 – 00:44:45.642] uh, alcoholics and schizophrenics.

44:46

[00 44:45.642 – 00:44:56.172] Bernie Curt says, uh, one clear reason why Bill Wilson experimented with LSD, he was seeking still further ways of helping alcoholics, particularly

44:55

[00 44:56.172 – 00:44:58.932] those that just couldn't get the spiritual.

44:58

[00 44:58.932 – 00:45:09.192] When one of his parishioners expressed concern to Sam Shoemaker, the reverend consulted his superior, Bishop Pardue, who declared himself in utmost

45:07

[00 45:09.192 – 00:45:10.832] sympathy with what Bill is doing.

45:10

[00 45:10.832 – 00:45:19.152] The bishop, Shoemaker reported to Wilson, is convinced that the biochemical factor is of the greatest importance.

45:16

[00 45:19.152 – 00:45:25.572] Half our problems are biochemical and do not go back to sin and cannot be wholly governed by prayer.

45:24

[00 45:25.572 – 00:45:34.732] So spirituality was not always the only solution for all of, uh, the ills of the world.

45:31

[00 45:34.732 – 00:45:38.372] Of schizophrenics, there's a biochemical factor also.

45:34

[00 45:38.372 – 00:45:48.112] During this, uh, this session with LSD, Betty Eisner and Tom Powers acted as co-therapists, uh, for Bill while Dr.

45:42

[00 45:48.112 – 00:45:49.772] Cohen quietly observed.

45:43

[00 45:49.772 – 00:45:53.852] Tom became very moved, crying when Gregorian chants were played.

45:47

[00 45:53.852 – 00:46:03.872] Uh, Betty notes that Bill, noticeably more relaxed and looking years younger, also came close to crying twice, once when discussing his mother and again

45:57

[00 46:03.872 – 00:46:05.192] when discussing his father.

45:59

[00 46:05.192 – 00:46:15.312] Um, later he wrote, uh, Bill wrote, uh, "I wrote a brief note the other day, um, and,

46:06

[00 46:15.312 – 00:46:20.312] uh..." Uh, no, this is, uh...

46:09

[00 46:20.312 – 00:46:24.352] No, this is Tom.

46:10

[00 46:24.352 – 00:46:34.472] Uh, Tom wrote this letter to Betty Eisner in February and, uh, the, uh-- She says, "I think both

46:18

[00 46:34.472 – 00:46:44.592] of you and Will," Will was her husband, "are wonderfully good for W," Wilson, William Wilson, "because you are among the very few people who are interested enough

46:29

[00 46:44.592 – 00:46:53.072] and loving enough to deal with him forthrightly and outside of the highly forced and artificial context of his position in AA.

46:38

[00 46:53.072 – 00:46:58.572] Something did him a whale a lo- of a lot of good, obviously visibly so.

46:44

[00 46:58.572 – 00:47:09.412] The great thing about LSD for me is that it permits the realization that reality is here and now, and that only the thinnest ti- thinnest time of dream

46:55

[00 47:09.412 – 00:47:17.412] separates the ego-bound consciousness from the always existent free child of God." A great, great letter.

47:01

[00 47:17.412 – 00:47:24.492] Uh, Betty, uh, uh, was a psychologist and, and did experiments with LSD.

47:06

[00 47:24.492 – 00:47:27.692] Uh, she has a very long paper on, uh...

47:10

[00 47:27.692 – 00:47:29.492] that includes all of this and more.

47:13

[00 47:29.492 – 00:47:31.352] It's called Remembrances.

47:15

[00 47:31.352 – 00:47:36.292] You can find it on the internet, Re- Remembrances by, by Betty Eisner.

47:20

[00 47:36.292 – 00:47:40.112] This is a letter that Bill wrote after his experience.

47:24

[00 47:40.112 – 00:47:43.442] Uh, just the second paragraph s- there.

47:27

[00 47:43.442 – 00:47:46.812] Bill says, "Since returning home, I have felt"

47:30

[00 47:47.007 – 00:47:49.547] And hope have acted exceedingly well.

47:33

[00 47:49.547 – 00:47:59.547] I can make no doubt that the Eisner-Cohen-Powers LSD therapy has contributed not a little to this happier state of

47:41

[00 47:59.547 – 00:48:00.207] affairs.

47:42

[00 48:00.207 – 00:48:07.907] Powers wrote to Betty later in April 13th in '57 discussing the impact of Bill's use.

47:48

[00 48:07.907 – 00:48:10.787] "W is strongly affected for the good.

47:51

[00 48:10.787 – 00:48:21.387] Everyone notices how much better he is, and he himself is very happy about it and realizes clearly what it is that has done it." Just

48:01

[00 48:21.387 – 00:48:24.687] real quickly, Betty, uh, was going to the seminar.

48:05

[00 48:24.687 – 00:48:29.947] Supposedly, uh, Tom Powers was gonna be there, but had to cancel at the last minute.

48:11

[00 48:29.947 – 00:48:40.507] And Betty says, "Thomas Merton just isn't a substitute for Thomas Powers." Uh, so Tom, uh,

48:18

[00 48:40.507 – 00:48:45.047] uh, Tom Powers couldn't be there, and so they had to settle for Thomas Merton.

48:24

[00 48:45.047 – 00:48:50.087] So she seemed to think that Merton was no good substitute for Tom Powers.

48:29

[00 48:50.087 – 00:48:57.227] Um, dear Betty, again, um, this is Tom writing.

48:33

[00 48:57.227 – 00:49:02.537] "The greatest effect of the LSD experience for me has come in the past two or three months.

48:40

[00 49:02.537 – 00:49:10.107] A lot of what I knew is, of LSD is, is coming back, not as a permanent state, but quite steady intermittent awareness.

48:49

[00 49:10.107 – 00:49:16.567] It isn't like a recurrence of the experience, of course, but it comes pretty close to it.

48:56

[00 49:16.567 – 00:49:20.387] The net result is a drastic de-problemizing of my whole life.

49:00

[00 49:20.387 – 00:49:25.987] Things are still tough here and there, but it is a matter of dealing with conditions, not problems.

49:08

[00 49:25.987 – 00:49:30.567] It's hard to describe, but the connection with LSD is unmistakable.

49:12

[00 49:30.567 – 00:49:36.837] I think it will be years before we really begin to know what the possibilities of this experience are.

49:20

[00 49:36.837 – 00:49:46.207] Love to all, Tom." Then Tom breaks with Bill from AA to All Addicts Anonymous.

49:26

[00 49:46.207 – 00:49:50.667] Uh, his writings, there's a little bit, uh, uh, we'll go through it.

49:31

[00 49:50.667 – 00:49:53.107] Eventually, Tom broke with Bill.

49:33

[00 49:53.107 – 00:50:02.887] Uh, and, uh, Tom, Tom says, "I told him that I still considered him to be my sponsor, but that I didn't wanna work with him anymore.

49:44

[00 50:02.887 – 00:50:09.287] I said that I still hoped that we could be friends, but I didn't wanna have anything more to do with him publicly.

49:53

[00 50:09.287 – 00:50:16.267] I just couldn't go on feeling as though I was in any way supporting what he was doing to Lois and to himself.

50:02

[00 50:16.267 – 00:50:27.647] Bill said, 'Fine, I feel the same way about you too,' and we shook on it as though it were some mutually agreed-upon parting of the ways with fault on both sides, which

50:15

[00 50:27.647 – 00:50:29.347] was a real switcheroo, you know.

50:17

[00 50:29.347 – 00:50:39.547] I think he knew that I saw right through it, but I guess it made him feel better not to have to take the responsibility for destroying what had been a very enjoyable

50:30

[00 50:39.547 – 00:50:43.407] and productive working relationship." Must have been...

50:33

[00 50:43.407 – 00:50:50.147] And, uh, the interviewer says, "It must have been very hard for you to break with him." I said, "Oh, it was terrible.

50:42

[00 50:50.147 – 00:50:51.457] Terrible," he replied.

50:44

[00 50:51.457 – 00:50:54.407] "But I just couldn't take any more of it.

50:47

[00 50:54.407 – 00:50:56.367] Lois was like a sponsor to me, too.

50:51

[00 50:56.367 – 00:51:02.247] I love them both too much to continue to have any part of it." That's from, uh, Bill W.

50:58

[00 51:02.247 – 00:51:03.747] by Frances Hardinge.

51:00

[00 51:03.747 – 00:51:05.707] And, uh, Matt D.

51:02

[00 51:05.707 – 00:51:14.327] said, uh, Tom was, for those who get the biblical reference, Tom was not a Cain, but a Jonathan.

51:09

[00 51:14.327 – 00:51:24.667] I wanna mention Matt D., uh, uh, the archivist, a friend of Tom Powers, and, uh, uh, the representative of,

51:17

[00 51:24.667 – 00:51:26.367] uh, All Addicts Anonymous now.

51:19

[00 51:26.367 – 00:51:29.087] Uh, I was in contact with him.

51:22

[00 51:29.087 – 00:51:36.187] Uh, he gave me a lot of information, uh, that, uh, to use in this presentation, and I'm, I'm grateful to him for that.

51:32

[00 51:36.187 – 00:51:46.267] Um, Tom, uh, says, "This is not a stuffy academic discourse on spiritual life." He wrote the book, First

51:39

[00 51:46.267 – 00:51:52.827] Questions on the Life of the Spirit, uh, that, uh, Gary was talking about before the, the meeting.

51:46

[00 51:52.827 – 00:52:01.627] And, uh, its powerfully written handbook on how to find God by a man who did so to his own vast surprise.

51:55

[00 52:01.627 – 00:52:10.627] For those who are already tentatively or securely committed to a religious faith, this book offers a guide toward deeper understanding of the spiritual life.

52:05

[00 52:10.627 – 00:52:20.707] It was first published, uh, First Questions on the Life of the Spirit in '59, and later it was, uh, published as An Invitation

52:14

[00 52:20.707 – 00:52:26.887] to a Great Experiment: Exploring the Possibility That God Can Be Known.

52:19

[00 52:26.887 – 00:52:33.107] Interestingly enough, uh, of course, Bill, uh, always said, uh, he was always...

52:24

[00 52:33.107 – 00:52:40.947] He, he never settled on any kind of religious, uh, dogma and, and certainly didn't, uh, promote any.

52:31

[00 52:40.947 – 00:52:46.207] Uh, but he always said that he was a shopper at the theological pie counter.

52:37

[00 52:46.207 – 00:52:48.127] He was always looking around.

52:40

[00 52:48.127 – 00:52:51.967] In May 1959, Father Ed wrote to Bill.

52:43

[00 52:51.967 – 00:52:57.547] Uh, Tom had sent, uh, his book to Father Dowling.

52:47

[00 52:57.547 – 00:53:07.807] And, uh, Father Ed wrote, he included a copy of the appreciative letter he'd sent to Wilson's friend, Tom Powers, in gratitude for the copy Tom sent

52:57

[00 53:07.847 – 00:53:10.627] of his book, First Questions in the Life of the Spirit.

53:02

[00 53:10.627 – 00:53:21.027] Bill replied on June 2nd saying he likewise hoped to see Father Ed, and he said about the book, he said, "But a peek at..." "I haven't had time to read the book yet, but

53:15

[00 53:21.027 – 00:53:30.847] a peek at it leaves me a little puzzled," he added, for To- Powers' approach when expressing his own philosophy was different from that which he took when discussing AA.

53:27

[00 53:30.847 – 00:53:40.667] Bill said, "Tom is on the side of perfection or bust," Wilson explained, and said that he and Powers had disagreements on that issue.

53:36

[00 53:40.667 – 00:53:45.747] Father Ed once said, Bill, uh, eh, the second paragraph there.

53:41

[00 53:45.747 – 00:53:53.147] In Bill's June 2nd letter, after describing his differences with Powers, the AA co-founder manifested his conference.

53:48

[00 53:53.147 – 00:53:57.587] He said, "I expect, too, that I'm too complacent theologically speaking.

53:52

[00 53:57.587 – 00:54:08.077] The immense arrays of views which are around, views which so often cut off communication between good people are interesting, but not too important speculation,

54:02

[00 54:08.077 – 00:54:09.947] at least so it seems.

54:04

[00 54:09.947 – 00:54:13.737] In some ways, I feel very close to conservative Christianity.

54:08

[00 54:13.737 – 00:54:19.627] In other respects, important ones to Christians, no particular convictions seem to come.

54:13

[00 54:19.627 – 00:54:29.747] Uh, maybe bo- down deep inside, I don't want to be convinced, I don't know." Um, but, uh, when it came to, uh, dogma

54:23

[00 54:29.747 – 00:54:36.357] and, uh, uh, the, the quote up there at the top, uh, Father Ed once said to Bill-

54:30

[00 54:36.489 – 00:54:40.889] It isn't what you put into AA that makes it so good, it's what you left out.

54:37

[00 54:40.889 – 00:54:47.369] Anyway, then, uh, eventually the book, uh, also became the AAA Big Book.

54:42

[00 54:47.369 – 00:54:49.169] "My name's Tom P.

54:44

[00 54:49.169 – 00:54:59.609] and I'm an alcohol addict, a drug addict, a tobacco addict, a crazy eater, a sex nut, a worry addict, a lying addict, a depression sink-out, et cetera."

54:55

[00 54:59.609 – 00:55:06.509] Tom is credited with applying the 12-step program to the treatment of other addictions, such as drugs, eating, and sex.

55:03

[00 55:06.509 – 00:55:10.549] East Ridge, a place and a way.

55:06

[00 55:10.549 – 00:55:13.369] Uh, learn from the losers.

55:08

[00 55:13.369 – 00:55:16.589] "My name's Tom Powers, and I'm an alcoholic.

55:11

[00 55:16.589 – 00:55:26.629] I think the best thing any alcoholic has to give to another is enough of his story to get some identification and some real strong witness to the fact that this Alcoholics

55:24

[00 55:26.629 – 00:55:28.089] Anonymous program works.

55:25

[00 55:28.089 – 00:55:38.489] That's tremendously important to know, for life and death hang on it." Um, they have, uh, what they call the 10 points,

55:33

[00 55:38.489 – 00:55:40.709] which are basically taken from how it works.

55:37

[00 55:40.709 – 00:55:49.899] Uh, point number one, completely give ourselves rigorous honesty, going to any lengths, knowing that there's no easier, softer way.

55:45

[00 55:49.899 – 00:55:53.159] They base it on the 10 points and the four absolutes.

55:49

[00 55:53.159 – 00:56:03.589] In 1968, Tom participated in a panel on group reality therapy at the 19th International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous that you can find

55:57

[00 56:03.589 – 00:56:07.089] on, of course, Recovery Speakers, uh, Tom P.

56:01

[00 56:07.089 – 00:56:09.689] at the 19th International Doctors in AA.

56:04

[00 56:09.689 – 00:56:19.849] Um, Bill was very sick, uh, dying with emphysema, and, uh, uh, he spent most of the time

56:11

[00 56:19.849 – 00:56:20.559] in the hospital.

56:12

[00 56:20.559 – 00:56:27.769] By September, he had gone upstairs to bed at Stepping Stones permanently, by September of 1970.

56:18

[00 56:27.769 – 00:56:32.549] The last six weeks at Stepping Stones were his time to say goodbye.

56:24

[00 56:32.549 – 00:56:37.809] People who had loved Bill came to pay their respects and as did some of those who hated him.

56:31

[00 56:37.809 – 00:56:46.609] Tom White drove Tom Powers down from Callicoon, New York, and waited outside while Powers went upstairs to say goodbye.

56:39

[00 56:46.609 – 00:56:56.649] Also, in later, in 1971, this is actually from, uh, from her obituary, but, uh, uh, Meredith

56:45

[00 56:56.649 – 00:57:02.149] was born to, uh, Bill Murray in, in, uh, January 1943 in St.

56:50

[00 57:02.149 – 00:57:02.689] Louis.

56:51

[00 57:02.689 – 00:57:11.169] She arrived at East Ridge in Hankins, New York, after two attempts at suicide and found a recovery from suicidal depression.

56:59

[00 57:11.169 – 00:57:13.669] East Ridge is a spiritual community.

57:02

[00 57:13.669 – 00:57:19.929] Uh, Meredith married East Ridge founder, Tom Powers, in 1971.

57:06

[00 57:19.929 – 00:57:30.249] Uh, he was 60 and she was 28, and spent the next 42 years carrying the message of hope and recovery and helping thousands of hopelessly addicted

57:15

[00 57:30.249 – 00:57:35.589] people, and people with terminal illness find sanity, peace, and joy.

57:20

[00 57:35.589 – 00:57:39.349] They had their own publication.

57:22

[00 57:39.349 – 00:57:41.529] Uh, there was a magazine called 24.

57:24

[00 57:41.529 – 00:57:47.609] Uh, some- a lot of, uh, different kinds of, uh, articles.

57:29

[00 57:47.609 – 00:57:50.269] Gresham's Law, some of you may have heard of that.

57:33

[00 57:50.269 – 00:57:57.669] East Ridge Community is a project of the Church of the Way, a corporation chartered by the State of New York.

57:41

[00 57:57.669 – 00:58:07.969] Uh, they, uh, they had, uh, on the left-hand side, they c- they have a 20-page article in which early AA pioneer and mentor

57:51

[00 58:07.969 – 00:58:09.049] of Bill Wilson and Dr.

57:53

[00 58:09.049 – 00:58:12.969] Smith, Sam Shoemaker, talks about the 12 steps.

57:56

[00 58:12.969 – 00:58:16.729] And, uh, this is just, uh, the beginning of it.

58:00

[00 58:16.729 – 00:58:26.789] I thank Patrick O- Patrick O'D, uh, for, uh, sharing this, uh, um, with me, the All Addicts Anonymous, and it's, uh, the 12

58:09

[00 58:26.789 – 00:58:29.129] Steps to Power by Sam Shoemaker.

58:12

[00 58:29.129 – 00:58:33.729] I spoke to, uh, Tom in 1999 over lunch.

58:15

[00 58:33.729 – 00:58:38.529] This is from Frances Hardigran's, uh, uh, book, Bill W.

58:19

[00 58:38.529 – 00:58:48.429] Uh, and, uh, Tom's interest in organic food had already been longstanding when in 1977 he was diagnosed with lung cancer.

58:27

[00 58:48.429 – 00:58:58.589] He underwent the Gerson treatment, a medically supervised detoxification, and regen- regen- rejuvenation therapy based on organic foods and vitamin and mineral

58:36

[00 58:58.589 – 00:58:59.589] supplementation.

58:36

[00 58:59.589 – 00:59:04.049] Fruits, vegetables, vitamins, supplements, and detoxification.

58:39

[00 59:04.049 – 00:59:12.489] Um, and, uh, um, he is now 88 years old, it says, and cancer-free, hale and hearty.

58:45

[00 59:12.489 – 00:59:14.269] That's in the Hardigran book.

58:48

[00 59:14.269 – 00:59:21.369] And then, uh, from the Sullivan County Democrat on, uh, um, Thomas E.

58:53

[00 59:21.369 – 00:59:31.528] Powers of Hankins, the founder with his son, Tom Powers, of East Ridge in Hankins, died Wednesday, April 27th, 2005, at his home.

59:02

[00 59:31.528 – 00:59:33.049] He was 93 years of age.

59:04

[00 59:33.049 – 00:59:42.049] The son of the late Thomas Francis and Catherine Votruba Powers, he was born June 7th, 1911, in Chadron, Nebraska.

59:11

[00 59:42.049 – 00:59:47.569] Private services will be held, uh, Friday at the East Ridge Chapel.

59:16

[00 59:47.569 – 00:59:52.509] Graveside services and burial will be in the Callicoon Cemetery.

59:20

[00 59:52.509 – 01:00:00.529] Tom Powers, uh, buried there with, uh, Meredith, who, who survived him, uh, for another seven years.

59:27

[01 00:00.529 – 01:00:08.629] Tom says, "In my search, many people and many groups have given me help, much of which I am not in a position to acknowledge here.

59:37

[01 00:08.629 – 01:00:14.269] There is one group of spiritual pioneers on the earth at this time to whom I owe the most.

59:45

[01 00:14.269 – 01:00:21.889] They know who they are, and they know how much I owe." Tom Powers.

59:50

[01 00:21.889 – 01:00:29.909] Thank you for letting me share.

59:53

[01 00:29.909 – 01:00:36.309] Thank you so much, Jim.

59:55

[01 00:36.309 – 01:00:37.249] Great job.

59:56

[01 00:37.249 – 01:00:41.169] And now we have some time for questions.

60:00

[01 00:41.169 – 01:00:47.769] If anyone has a question for Jim, please raise your hand, and I will call on you as you raise your hands.

60:08

[01 00:47.769 – 01:00:53.669] And looks like first up is Maureen.

60:11

[01 00:53.669 – 01:00:56.589] You can unmute.

60:13

[01 00:56.589 – 01:00:57.389] Thanks, Tim.

60:14

[01 00:57.389 – 01:00:59.409] Um, and thanks, Jim.

60:16

[01 00:59.409 – 01:01:02.309] Uh, just fantastic as always.

60:18

[01 01:02.309 – 01:01:12.369] Um, my question is, I hear many people say in, in the rooms, um, that they

60:24

[01 01:12.369 – 01:01:15.729] consider Wilson's LSD a relapse.

60:27

[01 01:15.729 – 01:01:18.249] And which I found that so interesting with your picture.

60:31

[01 01:18.249 – 01:01:24.869] You know, it wasn't the, what Li- Tim Leary's, uh, I don't even remember what it was, uh-

60:38

[01 01:26.391 – 01:01:29.111] Turn on, tune in, drop out or something like that.

60:42

[01 01:29.111 – 01:01:30.291] And it wasn't that.

60:44

[01 01:30.291 – 01:01:38.431] It was, you know, I, I mean, one, he didn't start drinking after he did LSD, and it was in a controlled setting for the most part.

60:55

[01 01:38.431 – 01:01:46.471] Um, so I, I don't really understa- And then, you know, and it's in, um, uh...

61:01

[01 01:46.471 – 01:01:53.271] It's not like it was hidden, although I, I know many people didn't like it, that it was in, um, Pass It On.

61:10

[01 01:53.271 – 01:01:58.351] Uh, I don't remember what page, and you had, uh, notated that as well.

61:16

[01 01:58.351 – 01:02:08.391] Um, it ju- it just, it seems so frustrating to me and, and I don't know if it's just that they don't like Wilson or they're looking

61:26

[01 02:08.391 – 01:02:10.471] for to take his inventory.

61:28

[01 02:10.471 – 01:02:16.531] You know, w- what, what do you say to somebody that says he relapsed over LSD?

61:35

[01 02:16.531 – 01:02:20.731] Well, if somebody believes that, you're never going to change their mind.

61:40

[01 02:20.731 – 01:02:31.010] I mean, uh, uh, people, uh, you know, I have a whole other presentation on, on psychological, on psychological learning of history, and facts

61:49

[01 02:31.010 – 01:02:33.071] never change our, uh, our beliefs.

61:52

[01 02:33.071 – 01:02:33.851] They just don't.

61:53

[01 02:33.851 – 01:02:36.451] Uh, it, it just, you know.

61:56

[01 02:36.451 – 01:02:40.491] Anyway, um, yeah, it's arguing with someone.

61:59

[01 02:40.491 – 01:02:43.211] But, uh, the, uh, the...

62:01

[01 02:43.211 – 01:02:45.871] Another thing that Ernest Kurtz says, I don't know if...

62:05

[01 02:45.871 – 01:02:51.511] I think it may be in that same, uh, uh, recording that I, I took that quote from.

62:12

[01 02:51.511 – 01:02:58.011] Uh, but he says the, the historian's job is, uh, is to present, not to convince.

62:19

[01 02:58.011 – 01:02:59.110] You know?

62:20

[01 02:59.110 – 01:03:01.131] And, and we can present the information.

62:23

[01 03:01.131 – 01:03:08.031] Now how people, uh, interpret it, it, it's just like, uh, the, the Big Book, you know.

62:29

[01 03:08.031 – 01:03:13.571] Um, there are different interpretations of different things, and we disagree.

62:34

[01 03:13.571 – 01:03:19.251] And, uh, um, it's, uh, it, it's...

62:37

[01 03:19.251 – 01:03:24.411] Some people think it was a slip, and that's could be what...

62:42

[01 03:24.411 – 01:03:29.331] In, in the study of history and, and literature, that's called presentism.

62:47

[01 03:29.331 – 01:03:39.211] You know, I'm looking with my 2025 mind and, uh, my, uh, experience and everything.

62:52

[01 03:39.211 – 01:03:47.111] I'm looking at what happened years ago, and I'm judging that based on my beliefs today.

62:59

[01 03:47.111 – 01:03:47.820] Mm-hmm.

62:59

[01 03:47.820 – 01:03:48.371] You know?

63:01

[01 03:48.371 – 01:03:55.511] And, uh, boy, if we go back in history and start judging people, you know, we're, uh, we'll never end up, you know.

63:10

[01 03:55.511 – 01:04:01.271] But, uh, you know, today, uh, we don't recommend that people take LSD.

63:15

[01 04:01.271 – 01:04:02.051] Yeah.

63:16

[01 04:02.051 – 01:04:02.891] You know?

63:17

[01 04:02.891 – 01:04:08.871] I- And, and so those people, you know, uh, are, are saying, well, Bill relapsed.

63:23

[01 04:08.871 – 01:04:09.670] He took a drug.

63:25

[01 04:09.670 – 01:04:17.991] And, and, uh, I have a whole two-part presentation on, on Bill's experiences, uh, uh, with LSD.

63:31

[01 04:17.991 – 01:04:21.951] And, uh, it was an experimental drug.

63:34

[01 04:21.951 – 01:04:32.191] Um, uh, going on, he was trying to find people, to find a way to help people who just couldn't get it, and there was scientific,

63:44

[01 04:32.191 – 01:04:38.171] uh, exper- uh, experimentation going on, um, in a lot of places.

63:49

[01 04:38.171 – 01:04:45.471] Can this drug help, uh, uh, help alcoholics and schizophrenics particularly?

63:54

[01 04:45.471 – 01:04:49.111] And, uh, a- and that's, that's what he did.

63:58

[01 04:49.111 – 01:04:53.791] He, he took this, uh, and, and other people, and then they talked about it.

64:04

[01 04:53.791 – 01:05:04.111] And, uh, in, in one of the quotes, uh, uh, I don't think, uh, uh, I read, but, uh, you know, even Tom says, "Well, I think this is probably a crutch.

64:16

[01 05:04.111 – 01:05:14.231] Um, and eventually we'll have to get rid of the crutch." But the idea was Bill wanted to know, what do we do with all these people

64:27

[01 05:14.231 – 01:05:15.731] that come into AA and leave?

64:29

[01 05:15.731 – 01:05:16.481] Mm-hmm.

64:30

[01 05:16.481 – 01:05:19.061] They just can't get this spiritual thing.

64:33

[01 05:19.061 – 01:05:21.751] You know, maybe we can, uh...

64:36

[01 05:21.751 – 01:05:31.771] Later on, of course, he, he said, "Hey, we're gonna give them some bomber loads of, uh, niacin, you know, and, uh, then we're gonna give them a shot of LSD so

64:48

[01 05:31.771 – 01:05:42.371] they get this, you know, white light experience like I had at Towns Hospital, and, and maybe that'll get them going." The idea was not to continue any of these things,

65:00

[01 05:42.371 – 01:05:52.271] but, uh, to use them, uh, uh, to get people into, uh, and, and, and, uh, to help them, uh, to get into recovery.

65:09

[01 05:52.271 – 01:05:54.011] So what do you say to people?

65:12

[01 05:54.011 – 01:05:54.571] I don't know.

65:14

[01 05:54.571 – 01:05:58.261] You know, it's hard to, uh, to convince people if they believe something.

65:19

[01 05:58.261 – 01:06:05.511] But like I say, a- as a historian, when it comes to the, to the womanizing, when it comes to LSD, when it comes...

65:28

[01 06:05.511 – 01:06:10.931] You know, we just try and present the information, and our job is not to convince.

65:35

[01 06:10.931 – 01:06:13.731] Although sometimes we would like to try.

65:38

[01 06:13.731 – 01:06:16.761] I also heard- Thank you, Maureen ...

65:40

[01 06:16.761 – 01:06:17.671] uh, thanks, Jim.

65:42

[01 06:17.671 – 01:06:27.991] I also heard in this meeting, too, that Wynn Laws had written a letter about Bill's use of LSD, that she was quite upset, and I don't know if you know anything about that,

65:55

[01 06:27.991 – 01:06:28.341] because I- Who?

65:57

[01 06:28.341 – 01:06:28.771] Lois?

65:57

[01 06:28.771 – 01:06:32.811] Lynn Wall- Lynn, Lynn, uh, uh, Wynn Laws.

66:01

[01 06:32.811 – 01:06:35.451] Wynn Laws.

66:02

[01 06:35.451 – 01:06:36.691] Wynn Laws?

66:03

[01 06:36.691 – 01:06:38.891] She- I don't know that she ever took it.

66:07

[01 06:38.891 – 01:06:40.351] I don't have any information.

66:09

[01 06:40.351 – 01:06:45.331] I know she, she wrote a letter that she was upset that Bill was experimenting with LSD.

66:16

[01 06:45.331 – 01:06:47.451] I, I have never seen that letter.

66:19

[01 06:47.451 – 01:06:50.511] No, I don't know.

66:21

[01 06:50.511 – 01:06:52.071] I've never seen anything like that.

66:23

[01 06:52.071 – 01:06:55.411] I'd like to see it if it's a- available.

66:27

[01 06:55.411 – 01:06:56.511] No, thank you.

66:28

[01 06:56.511 – 01:07:01.631] Thank you, Maureen.

66:30

[01 07:01.631 – 01:07:03.771] Next is Gary.

66:31

[01 07:03.771 – 01:07:06.111] You can unmute.

66:33

[01 07:06.111 – 01:07:06.951] Wonderful.

66:34

[01 07:06.951 – 01:07:11.491] Uh, I, I just wonderful, uh, what you presented, uh, Jim.

66:38

[01 07:11.491 – 01:07:14.651] I, I do have a couple of things that I'd like to...

66:43

[01 07:14.651 – 01:07:19.351] That clip that you did of Ernest Kurtz is just marvelous.

66:48

[01 07:19.351 – 01:07:20.211] Yeah.

66:48

[01 07:20.211 – 01:07:23.511] You're, you're, you're having multiple sources being a key.

66:52

[01 07:23.511 – 01:07:27.761] And incidentally, I attended a, uh, uh...

66:55

[01 07:27.761 – 01:07:34.971] It, it was the, uh, history symposium that was done, uh, in, uh, Sedona, Arizona.

67:01

[01 07:34.971 – 01:07:45.231] There were four of the meetings, and I, I, I, I attended when Kevin Hanlon and Daniel Carusone presented, uh, a, did a presentation,

67:10

[01 07:45.231 – 01:07:47.171] Was Bill Wilson a Philanderer?

67:13

[01 07:47.171 – 01:07:48.311] Uh-huh.

67:13

[01 07:48.311 – 01:07:58.371] They, and they, uh, came to the conclusion, which is similar to what Ernest Kurtz did, is that they, they said it, it was, uh,

67:23

[01 07:58.371 – 01:08:08.871] there was just no corroborating evidence of, of the assertions, that most of the accusations all came from one person, therefore you could not

67:33

[01 08:08.871 – 01:08:12.931] use that as a, uh, use it as a fact.

67:37

[01 08:12.931 – 01:08:15.331] It's just 'cause there is not, uh-

67:40

[01 08:16.027 – 01:08:18.447] Enough, um, evidence otherwise.

67:42

[01 08:18.447 – 01:08:28.487] I just wanted to notice that while you're doing your presentation that, uh, the, the Tom Powers books have a tendency to be very

67:51

[01 08:28.487 – 01:08:29.547] pricey.

67:52

[01 08:29.547 – 01:08:36.767] Right now on eBay, you can get a beat-up copy of First Questions of the Life of the Spirit for your- for 25 bucks.

68:01

[01 08:36.767 – 01:08:42.007] Go get it, 'cause all the rest of them are, like, 100 bucks and up.

68:06

[01 08:42.007 – 01:08:43.027] All right?

68:08

[01 08:43.027 – 01:08:43.487] Mm-hmm.

68:08

[01 08:43.487 – 01:08:48.407] One of them, you know, not that the person can get it, but one of them is selling for 700 bucks.

68:16

[01 08:48.407 – 01:08:54.567] The Invitation to The Great Experiment, that one is selling for 128 bucks.

68:21

[01 08:54.567 – 01:08:54.577] Wow.

68:22

[01 08:54.577 – 01:08:56.627] They are, they are very pricey.

68:24

[01 08:56.627 – 01:09:05.947] But as far as I'm concerned, when you do read First Questions in the Life of the Spirit, it is so filled with outside AA issues.

68:35

[01 09:05.947 – 01:09:10.807] It's, it's just magnificent how many outside issues.

68:38

[01 09:10.807 – 01:09:14.967] There's so many outside issues, it would take me three lifetimes to read them all.

68:44

[01 09:14.967 – 01:09:15.317] Mm-hmm.

68:45

[01 09:15.317 – 01:09:25.367] I- I'd never have a prayer of doing so, but it- it's kind of like he busts the mold and, and, uh, becomes a searcher of all sorts

68:56

[01 09:25.367 – 01:09:26.027] of things.

68:57

[01 09:26.027 – 01:09:30.307] Um, you know, it's Brother Lawrence, for example.

69:00

[01 09:30.307 – 01:09:35.217] Uh, you know, it's, it's just, uh, it's just really, uh, something.

69:05

[01 09:35.217 – 01:09:43.627] But, um, also I'd, I'd like to interject that would you believe I've been in touch with the daughter of Tom Powers.

69:14

[01 09:43.627 – 01:09:46.197] Her name's Kit, right?

69:15

[01 09:46.197 – 01:09:53.807] And according to her, everything that Tom Powers said about Bill Wilson was projection.

69:21

[01 09:53.807 – 01:09:54.887] Every bit of it.

69:23

[01 09:54.887 – 01:09:58.787] She doesn't believe her father for a minute.

69:26

[01 09:58.787 – 01:10:00.047] All right?

69:27

[01 10:00.047 – 01:10:02.767] And, uh, I've had, I've, I have had...

69:31

[01 10:02.767 – 01:10:12.867] And, and one thing about the E- East Ridge, uh, uh, commune, that sh- she married outside of that commune, and was banned

69:40

[01 10:12.867 – 01:10:23.747] by her father from attending that commune as, as well, so there was some, uh, difficulty with Tom Powers also being rather flexible himself

69:49

[01 10:23.747 – 01:10:25.856] about his own family relationships.

69:51

[01 10:25.856 – 01:10:35.917] But I, I, I, I, I commend you immensely for the way that you handled, uh, these, uh, accusations about Bill Wilson where everybody, quote,

70:01

[01 10:35.917 – 01:10:41.247] "knows", but people don't know because they're taking gossip.

70:05

[01 10:41.247 – 01:10:44.307] And of course, we don't gossip in AA, do we?

70:09

[01 10:44.307 – 01:10:46.387] Oh, yeah, yes, we do.

70:11

[01 10:46.387 – 01:10:47.867] Thanks.

70:12

[01 10:47.867 – 01:10:49.727] Thank you, Gary.

70:14

[01 10:49.727 – 01:10:53.307] And, uh, j- just, uh, a couple of, of notes.

70:18

[01 10:53.307 – 01:10:58.167] Uh, you know, first of all, uh, I, I've become a, uh...

70:23

[01 10:58.167 – 01:11:02.167] Maybe it's because where I live I'm not able to get a lot of books or...

70:29

[01 11:02.167 – 01:11:12.447] But archive.org, you know, you can find most of those books, including Life of the Spirit, inclu-

70:36

[01 11:12.447 – 01:11:17.327] almost all kinds of old books you can find on archive.org.

70:41

[01 11:17.327 – 01:11:27.386] Um, and, um, you know, the other thing, uh, uh, you've seen as I go through the presentation, you see books and, and

70:50

[01 11:27.387 – 01:11:29.727] other things, uh, show up.

70:52

[01 11:29.727 – 01:11:39.727] And, um, that, that's where I get virtually everything you see in my presentations are quotes that I've, that I've, uh, plagiar- that

71:01

[01 11:39.727 – 01:11:45.147] I have, uh, stole, that I have borrowed from, uh, AA historians.

71:06

[01 11:45.147 – 01:11:49.627] Uh, and, um, uh, but it's documented, uh, history.

71:10

[01 11:49.627 – 01:11:57.067] And, uh, so but a lot of these things are, are available, uh, uh, too.

71:16

[01 11:57.067 – 01:11:59.547] So yeah, thank you.

71:18

[01 11:59.547 – 01:12:00.307] Thank you.

71:19

[01 12:00.307 – 01:12:07.337] And I, I had heard about, uh, uh, yeah, he had a falling out with his daughter.

71:26

[01 12:07.337 – 01:12:17.727] And, uh, you know, uh, I think the quote from Bill was, you know, he was, he was always, uh, going for the way to be perfect,

71:36

[01 12:17.727 – 01:12:18.827] you know?

71:37

[01 12:18.827 – 01:12:24.267] And when we wanna be perfect, then we also want other people to be perfect with us.

71:44

[01 12:24.267 – 01:12:28.867] So who else?

71:46

[01 12:28.867 – 01:12:30.807] Thank you for the question, Gary.

71:48

[01 12:30.807 – 01:12:32.027] Next is Ella.

71:50

[01 12:32.027 – 01:12:33.087] You can unmute.

71:51

[01 12:33.087 – 01:12:37.007] Hi, my name is Ella.

71:53

[01 12:37.007 – 01:12:39.507] Thank you so much, Jim, for your presentation.

71:57

[01 12:39.507 – 01:12:42.626] Um, oh, my gosh, it was so thorough and just...

72:01

[01 12:42.626 – 01:12:46.307] I, um, I had no idea about the Aldous Huxley.

72:05

[01 12:46.307 – 01:12:48.587] I actually did my thesis on Aldous Huxley.

72:08

[01 12:48.587 – 01:12:54.867] I did not know of the connection between Aldous Huxley and Bill W., so that's, uh, that's something new.

72:16

[01 12:54.867 – 01:13:01.127] I, I also, um, had read about the LSD, and I watched a documentary on that.

72:22

[01 13:01.127 – 01:13:11.367] And, um, I just, um, I don't have any judgment of course towards Bill W., 'cause for me, you know, he, he's, he paved the way, um, you know, the chain of events

72:35

[01 13:11.367 – 01:13:16.047] that has to ha- had to have happened for all of us to be sitting here tonight 90 years later.

72:43

[01 13:16.047 – 01:13:19.087] I've, I do not sort of any judgment of him.

72:47

[01 13:19.087 – 01:13:29.527] But I, I did wanna ask you a question about, um, I had recently just finished reading a book on Maudie Man, and, uh, Bill Wilson was her sponsor

72:58

[01 13:29.527 – 01:13:30.567] at one stage.

72:59

[01 13:30.567 – 01:13:40.707] And of course, I wanted to find out, like, you know, I have been told very much so, so, um, when I first came to the rooms, uh, two years ago, I was

73:12

[01 13:40.707 – 01:13:50.987] 58 then, and I was strictly told by my sponsor, "You do not let any man sponsor you, ever." But, uh, Maudie Man, who I just find

73:22

[01 13:50.987 – 01:14:01.017] absolutely incredibly inspirational as a woman, and pioneer of, like, absolute epic proportion, and I just wanted to find out

73:30

[01 14:01.017 – 01:14:09.987] what your thoughts were on that and if it's true or, you know, if it- Well, my, my thoughts, my thoughts are, uh, uh, try to stick, uh, to history.

73:42

[01 14:09.987 – 01:14:20.207] And, uh, you know, first of all, uh, yeah, Bill was her sponsor, uh, in, in, uh, in

73:49

[01 14:20.207 – 01:14:20.727] some things.

73:50

[01 14:20.727 – 01:14:24.337] He told her, uh, gave her some bad, uh, information once.

73:55

[01 14:24.337 – 01:14:28.827] He told her that she could definitely break her anonymity when she, uh, went public.

74:01

[01 14:28.827 – 01:14:38.827] Uh, he later, uh, later said, uh, "Oops," you know, "That was probably a mistake." Um, a- and, and when it comes to at least

74:10

[01 14:38.827 – 01:14:49.207] even our modern beliefs, of course, uh, the idea, uh, not a rule, not a law, uh, based on

74:18

[01 14:49.207 – 01:14:53.247] experience and suggestions, and everything's a suggestion in AA.

74:22

[01 14:53.247 – 01:14:56.547] Bill always said there are no musts in AA.

74:25

[01 14:56.547 – 01:14:59.126] And, uh, you know, there's no rule.

74:28

[01 14:59.126 – 01:15:05.047] There are many places in the world still today where if you're a woman, there are no women to sponsor-

74:36

[01 15:05.189 – 01:15:14.009] You, or if you are a man, there are no men to sponsor you, and so, you know, you, you, you do whatever is necessary.

74:46

[01 15:14.009 – 01:15:24.188] And, uh, and in, in this particular case, you know, of course the idea is that to not let the sexual, uh,

74:55

[01 15:24.189 – 01:15:28.789] or romantic emotions get in the way of the sponsor-sponsee relationship.

74:59

[01 15:28.789 – 01:15:34.589] And of course, that wouldn't have happened with Bill and Marty since Marty was a lesbian, you know?

75:06

[01 15:34.589 – 01:15:44.949] And, uh, you know, uh, so even today, uh, it's recommended that gay people have, uh, sponsors of the opposite sex,

75:15

[01 15:45.029 – 01:15:45.349] you know?

75:16

[01 15:45.349 – 01:15:47.669] So e- everything is a s- what...

75:19

[01 15:47.669 – 01:15:51.129] Bill was probably the ultimate pragmatist.

75:21

[01 15:51.129 – 01:15:52.989] Whatever works.

75:22

[01 15:52.989 – 01:16:00.508] Whatever works is, uh, for you and your situation is what you, uh, is what you need to do.

75:30

[01 16:00.508 – 01:16:06.929] And if history has taught me anything, is that we have tried everything, and lots of them have worked.

75:37

[01 16:06.929 – 01:16:08.049] Lots of things have worked.

75:40

[01 16:08.049 – 01:16:11.289] Some haven't, but some have, you know?

75:43

[01 16:11.289 – 01:16:13.249] And, uh, and if it works, it's good.

75:46

[01 16:13.249 – 01:16:23.249] Uh, another thing I wanted to mention, uh, from Gary and, uh, two other, uh, highly recommended, the, uh, Bill W

75:54

[01 16:23.249 – 01:16:24.009] documentary.

75:55

[01 16:24.009 – 01:16:34.209] If you want a little more information, uh, uh, on, uh, on some of these topics we touched on, the Bill W documentary is excellent

76:05

[01 16:34.209 – 01:16:40.109] by, uh, Hanlon and, uh, that, uh, that Gary, that Gary mentioned.

76:10

[01 16:40.109 – 01:16:47.769] And, uh, the, uh, Ernie Kurtz, uh, blurb that I had today is in...

76:15

[01 16:47.769 – 01:16:50.829] You can look it up easily on the internet.

76:19

[01 16:50.829 – 01:16:52.619] It's called the Respect for History.

76:22

[01 16:52.619 – 01:16:55.909] Ernest Kurtz, uh, Respect for History.

76:24

[01 16:55.909 – 01:16:57.029] And it has...

76:26

[01 16:57.029 – 01:17:04.129] And there are a bunch of other things that he talks about, uh, some controversial and, uh, and, and, uh, and very interesting.

76:35

[01 17:04.129 – 01:17:14.429] He also mentions, uh, the fact about the six steps and, and some other things, uh, that, that, uh, are sometimes considered controversial.

76:44

[01 17:14.429 – 01:17:20.369] Thank you, Ella, for the question.

76:46

[01 17:20.369 – 01:17:21.768] And next is Kenji.

76:48

[01 17:21.768 – 01:17:23.509] You can- Kenji, hello.

76:50

[01 17:23.509 – 01:17:26.169] Hi there.

76:51

[01 17:26.169 – 01:17:29.089] What a f- We've got, we've got to stop meeting like this, Kenji.

76:57

[01 17:29.089 – 01:17:34.249] We- Another, another boffo presentation.

76:59

[01 17:34.249 – 01:17:35.269] Thanks so much.

77:00

[01 17:35.269 – 01:17:45.569] Um, I should've been taking notes, 'cause there were just so many intriguing little things during this presentation.

77:07

[01 17:45.569 – 01:17:53.569] But one small thing was you showed a bit of a letter that referred to a 25G session.

77:15

[01 17:53.569 – 01:17:58.959] Would they have- 25, 25 gamma is what they, they were calling it in those days.

77:20

[01 17:58.959 – 01:18:00.009] A 25 gamma.

77:21

[01 18:00.009 – 01:18:01.229] That's a dosage.

77:23

[01 18:01.229 – 01:18:02.249] Okay.

77:24

[01 18:02.249 – 01:18:05.069] The dosage for the, uh, for the LSD.

77:27

[01 18:05.069 – 01:18:11.889] And when, uh, uh, one time they, uh, Cohen asked, uh, Bill...

77:32

[01 18:11.889 – 01:18:13.449] We didn't cover it today.

77:34

[01 18:13.449 – 01:18:20.589] There are a lot of, you know, probably half of my slides were, you know, just for time purposes.

77:42

[01 18:20.589 – 01:18:30.629] But, uh, Cohen, uh, asked him, he, uh, he, he had two tablets there and, uh,

77:48

[01 18:30.629 – 01:18:32.289] and, uh, he, he asked the people.

77:51

[01 18:32.289 – 01:18:35.589] He said, "Do you want one or two?" And, and everybody took one.

77:56

[01 18:35.589 – 01:18:39.969] And Bill said, "Don't ever do that to an alcoholic," you know.

78:01

[01 18:39.969 – 01:18:41.749] "Ask them if they want to..." You know.

78:04

[01 18:41.749 – 01:18:43.009] And he took two.

78:06

[01 18:43.009 – 01:18:48.429] Um, you know, everybody else took one and, and Bill took two, you know.

78:12

[01 18:48.429 – 01:18:51.969] So, uh, anyway, a little...

78:14

[01 18:51.969 – 01:18:54.869] Any other, uh, any other questions?

78:17

[01 18:54.869 – 01:18:55.309] Yes.

78:18

[01 18:55.309 – 01:18:58.809] Um, so I was so intrigued by what Gary was just talking about.

78:23

[01 18:58.809 – 01:19:07.869] Was it, was he, were you, was Gary saying that it was Powers' daughter who was poo-pooing his- Yeah ...

78:30

[01 19:07.869 – 01:19:11.989] projecting that it was all projections on, on Tom's part?

78:35

[01 19:11.989 – 01:19:13.349] Yes.

78:35

[01 19:13.349 – 01:19:13.629] Yes.

78:36

[01 19:13.629 – 01:19:24.298] Um- And a lot, it should be mentioned that some of these, these interviews were done when, uh, when Tom was at an advanced age, you

78:46

[01 19:24.298 – 01:19:24.608] know.

78:47

[01 19:24.608 – 01:19:27.609] And, uh, I don't know, you know.

78:50

[01 19:27.609 – 01:19:28.929] I, I, I don't know.

78:52

[01 19:28.929 – 01:19:33.849] Um, I, I just have what's, what's written and try to present the information.

78:58

[01 19:33.849 – 01:19:40.589] Um, but, uh, a- again, as Gary said, as Ernie Kurtz says, you know, it's...

79:04

[01 19:40.589 – 01:19:50.589] You, you gotta have some kind of, of, uh, documentation and, uh, at least two good sources, you know, and, uh,

79:12

[01 19:50.589 – 01:19:56.129] uh, for something to really be, uh, documented history.

79:16

[01 19:56.129 – 01:19:56.569] You know?

79:17

[01 19:56.569 – 01:19:57.409] It's, it's...

79:18

[01 19:57.409 – 01:20:06.289] There are a lot of things that, uh, that, uh, that come up that, uh, only one person has ever said this, you know?

79:27

[01 20:06.289 – 01:20:16.529] And so, hey, that's interesting, you know, but, you know, you're always looking for a second, you know, source, uh,

79:35

[01 20:16.529 – 01:20:19.049] to say, well, yeah, yeah.

79:38

[01 20:19.049 – 01:20:20.549] That, that really did happen.

79:40

[01 20:20.549 – 01:20:30.569] And Ernie, you know, searched around, you know, for, for a lot of this documentation and, uh, and, and just couldn't find anything

79:49

[01 20:30.569 – 01:20:33.989] that didn't come, uh, from, from Tom Powers.

79:52

[01 20:33.989 – 01:20:36.009] Now, was it sour grapes?

79:54

[01 20:36.009 – 01:20:37.609] Was it resentment?

79:56

[01 20:37.609 – 01:20:38.569] Was it the truth?

79:58

[01 20:38.569 – 01:20:39.009] Was it...

79:59

[01 20:39.009 – 01:20:40.369] I don't know.

80:00

[01 20:40.369 – 01:20:41.849] You just present.

80:02

[01 20:41.849 – 01:20:44.689] Uh, maybe someday more will be revealed.

80:05

[01 20:44.689 – 01:20:47.229] If I could squeeze in one more question.

80:08

[01 20:47.229 – 01:20:47.719] Sure.

80:09

[01 20:47.719 – 01:20:49.629] So the Triple A program.

80:11

[01 20:49.629 – 01:20:51.489] Uh-huh.

80:12

[01 20:51.489 – 01:20:54.909] Uh, I see they, they, there's a web- they still have a website.

80:17

[01 20:54.909 – 01:20:56.519] There's a meeting- Uh-huh ...

80:19

[01 20:56.519 – 01:20:56.579] list.

80:20

[01 20:56.579 – 01:21:06.629] Um, very few meetings, but of the online ones, seems like half of them are listed as BBSS meetings, which is Big Book Study

80:29

[01 21:06.629 – 01:21:09.869] Group, stu- uh, Big Book Step Study.

80:32

[01 21:09.869 – 01:21:10.759] Mm-hmm.

80:33

[01 21:10.759 – 01:21:18.469] Uh, Hyannis method, which seems like an extremely fundamentalist, rigid, rule-bound form of AA.

80:39

[01 21:18.469 – 01:21:19.009] Yeah.

80:39

[01 21:19.009 – 01:21:24.249] It seems like the opposite of what Triple A would have been as far- Yeah.

80:45

[01 21:24.249 – 01:21:25.209] The, uh...

80:47

[01 21:25.209 – 01:21:29.229] It, it, it went off, uh, into, uh, different areas.

80:51

[01 21:29.229 – 01:21:31.829] Um, excuse me.

80:52

[01 21:31.829 – 01:21:42.409] The, uh, some other parts that I didn't include, uh, when, um, you know, they believed in, in, uh, the spiritual solution,

81:01

[01 21:42.409 – 01:21:47.169] the, the, the AA program, the 12 steps and, and the four absolutes.

81:06

[01 21:47.169 – 01:21:54.619] And of course, Tom had had his, his, uh, uh, Christian, you know, uh, background there and-

81:12

[01 21:54.751 – 01:22:05.131] his spiritual experience and, uh, but, uh, they had this, like, commune there and, and then when, uh, when treatment centers started having

81:21

[01 22:05.131 – 01:22:15.551] laws, uh, connected to them, uh, and, and there came to be more government, uh, um, control

81:28

[01 22:15.551 – 01:22:25.731] and regulations over, over some of these things, uh, they in- they, they changed, uh, their, their focus from medical,

81:36

[01 22:25.731 – 01:22:32.871] that had a lot of restrictions, and they just became a religion, and they registered as a religion.

81:43

[01 22:32.871 – 01:22:37.731] And, uh, and there were, uh, you know, for...

81:47

[01 22:37.731 – 01:22:43.051] A lot of things happened that they happened for a while, they don't happen now.

81:53

[01 22:43.051 – 01:22:47.611] Uh, and, and when there was a commune going on there was...

81:58

[01 22:47.611 – 01:22:49.191] Nobody ate meat.

81:59

[01 22:49.191 – 01:22:59.271] They, they ate, uh, you know, they got their protein through tubes and, you know, tubes of this and that, supplements and, and, uh, vegetarianism and no smoking

82:10

[01 22:59.271 – 01:23:01.351] and, and none of these things.

82:13

[01 23:01.351 – 01:23:06.811] And, and they've changed over the years, you know, as, as AA groups do.

82:19

[01 23:06.811 – 01:23:12.811] But, uh, they, they, they're outside of the traditions in a lot of ways.

82:24

[01 23:12.811 – 01:23:18.771] Uh, as Gary mentioned, you know, there are so many outside issues, you know.

82:30

[01 23:18.771 – 01:23:28.811] Their, um, a- at least some of their older, uh, documents, you know, they, they, you know, sell rosaries and they ask for,

82:39

[01 23:28.811 – 01:23:38.911] uh, you know, donations and, uh, you know, they, they sell a lot of other things and, and they have a lot of ideas that, uh,

82:49

[01 23:38.911 – 01:23:49.251] uh, some AA members have individually, but they're not part of AA, and where these are sometimes

82:56

[01 23:49.251 – 01:23:50.871] a part of the triple A.

82:58

[01 23:50.871 – 01:23:59.791] Um, but, uh, I, I, I'm not familiar with, um, with their meetings nowadays or how they're, how they're run.

83:06

[01 23:59.791 – 01:24:07.231] I've looked those things up, but, uh, um, I'm not, uh, really familiar about how they're, how they're actually run today.

83:14

[01 24:07.231 – 01:24:12.091] Thank you, Kenji, for the questions.

83:17

[01 24:12.091 – 01:24:15.571] We've got Carleen up next in Australia.

83:20

[01 24:15.571 – 01:24:16.491] You can unmute.

83:22

[01 24:16.491 – 01:24:19.151] Thank you, Tim.

83:23

[01 24:19.151 – 01:24:20.091] Yep.

83:24

[01 24:20.091 – 01:24:30.231] Um, I think the truth about Bill will always stay in that bedroom that Tom Powers went up to, and the conversation that was

83:33

[01 24:30.231 – 01:24:30.890] held there.

83:34

[01 24:30.890 – 01:24:36.091] And I think God, in God's wisdom, will keep it there.

83:39

[01 24:36.091 – 01:24:41.071] But I have my ideas about what happened and the gossip and all that kind of stuff.

83:46

[01 24:41.071 – 01:24:51.411] I always did feel that if Bill had have been this huge philanderer and whatever, you know, this im- im- implication

83:54

[01 24:51.411 – 01:25:01.451] that he was some kind of a sex fiend, within 90 years time I would have imagined that someone would have found a letter, a diary, a document,

84:04

[01 25:01.451 – 01:25:11.681] or some kind of evidence to say that my mother, my auntie, my cousin, my sister, my whatever, had sexual congress with the founder of Alcoholics

84:14

[01 25:11.681 – 01:25:12.291] Anonymous.

84:15

[01 25:12.291 – 01:25:17.371] Someone over 90 years would have come forward, because they wouldn't have been able to shut up.

84:22

[01 25:17.371 – 01:25:26.991] Honestly, that's the most obvious, obvious, obvious piece of proof I've got that Bill is not what Tom Powers said he was.

84:30

[01 25:26.991 – 01:25:32.111] And I, you know, my heart, my absolute heart, I believe that.

84:35

[01 25:32.111 – 01:25:38.391] I believe he loved Lois, I believed he loved Helen, and I believe that is the truth of the truth.

84:43

[01 25:38.391 – 01:25:40.131] I really believe that.

84:45

[01 25:40.131 – 01:25:47.111] And he loved both of them in, in a way that Bill Wilson could love, 'cause that's Bill, man.

84:52

[01 25:47.111 – 01:25:49.231] That's, that's the way it was.

84:55

[01 25:49.231 – 01:25:51.811] And Tom, may he rest in peace.

84:58

[01 25:51.811 – 01:25:54.111] Thank you.

84:59

[01 25:54.111 – 01:25:54.411] Thank you.

85:00

[01 25:54.411 – 01:25:55.311] Hello, Gary.

85:01

[01 25:55.311 – 01:25:59.131] Thank you, Carleen.

85:03

[01 25:59.131 – 01:26:00.491] And next is Dave.

85:05

[01 26:00.491 – 01:26:01.351] You can unmute.

85:06

[01 26:01.351 – 01:26:04.711] Thanks, Tim.

85:07

[01 26:04.711 – 01:26:07.051] Dave, you don't look like your avatar.

85:10

[01 26:07.051 – 01:26:09.851] Right.

85:11

[01 26:09.851 – 01:26:14.851] Uh, but anyways, uh, well, I'm not that good-looking, right?

85:15

[01 26:14.851 – 01:26:17.491] But anyways, uh, that, uh...

85:17

[01 26:17.491 – 01:26:26.391] I was just wondering, you know, on the LSD, how many people in AA were doing that?

85:24

[01 26:26.391 – 01:26:28.431] And, and did Lois do that?

85:27

[01 26:28.431 – 01:26:29.591] Yeah.

85:28

[01 26:29.591 – 01:26:31.441] Lois did it too.

85:30

[01 26:31.441 – 01:26:31.711] Yeah.

85:30

[01 26:31.711 – 01:26:33.411] Uh, yeah, how many people, I don't know.

85:34

[01 26:33.411 – 01:26:38.191] I never heard a, uh, uh, a, a final number.

85:38

[01 26:38.191 – 01:26:42.271] I don't know if we'll ever know a, a final number of how many people did it.

85:45

[01 26:42.271 – 01:26:49.411] But, uh, you know, when Bill, you know, when Bill got behind something, you know, he just, he was quite the promoter.

85:53

[01 26:49.411 – 01:26:54.031] And, uh, so, so there were some people, you know.

85:57

[01 26:54.031 – 01:26:56.191] There were, there were different ones at different times.

86:01

[01 26:56.191 – 01:27:06.211] Um, but, uh, you know, I wouldn't say a huge amount of people, but, but there were people, uh, um, that, uh, that did

86:10

[01 27:06.211 – 01:27:06.351] it.

86:11

[01 27:06.351 – 01:27:07.711] Um, and- And Lois.

86:13

[01 27:07.711 – 01:27:09.011] Yeah, Lois.

86:14

[01 27:09.011 – 01:27:09.870] Lois did it.

86:16

[01 27:09.870 – 01:27:12.091] Uh, I, I think Lois did it once.

86:19

[01 27:12.091 – 01:27:23.351] Her comment was, uh, was something like, uh, "Oh, I didn't get a whole lot out of it." You know, her comment was like, "Eh, didn't do much for me." Oh,

86:31

[01 27:23.351 – 01:27:23.771] wow.

86:32

[01 27:23.771 – 01:27:24.571] Yeah.

86:33

[01 27:24.571 – 01:27:30.631] Yeah, but she did and, uh, Marty Mann and, uh, and Nell and, uh, Father Dowling.

86:39

[01 27:30.631 – 01:27:32.431] Um, yeah.

86:40

[01 27:32.431 – 01:27:33.831] Father Dowling too?

86:42

[01 27:33.831 – 01:27:34.151] Wow.

86:42

[01 27:34.151 – 01:27:34.591] Yeah.

86:43

[01 27:34.591 – 01:27:34.931] Okay.

86:44

[01 27:34.931 – 01:27:35.531] Yeah.

86:45

[01 27:35.531 – 01:27:36.751] Wow.

86:45

[01 27:36.751 – 01:27:38.171] Yeah.

86:46

[01 27:38.171 – 01:27:38.711] Well, thanks.

86:47

[01 27:38.711 – 01:27:39.731] Uh-huh.

86:48

[01 27:39.731 – 01:27:39.901] Thanks.

86:49

[01 27:39.901 – 01:27:40.231] Thank you.

86:50

[01 27:40.231 – 01:27:43.591] Thank you, Dave.

86:51

[01 27:43.591 – 01:27:49.151] And we've only got a couple minutes left, so let's get these last two questions in here.

86:58

[01 27:49.151 – 01:27:50.651] First up is Roy.

87:00

[01 27:50.651 – 01:27:51.690] You can unmute.

87:01

[01 27:51.690 – 01:27:56.101] Yeah, thanks for your presentation.

87:04

[01 27:56.101 – 01:27:56.771] I enjoyed it.

87:05

[01 27:56.771 – 01:28:04.731] Uh, yeah, I was in touch with, uh, Ernie Kurtz via email before he died, and I asked him the same question about the origin of all these...

87:16

[01 28:04.731 – 01:28:11.091] I'd read the Cheever book and saw the, uh, allegations, and he said, he, he told me the same thing.

87:24

[01 28:11.091 – 01:28:18.311] "If you don't have two really good corroborating reliable sources," he just said, "Don't...

87:30

[01 28:18.311 – 01:28:23.111] I don't put out anything as AA history." So I took that to heart, and I've done that since.

87:37

[01 28:23.111 – 01:28:27.251] Of course, I, you know, I talk a lot and talk about AA history.

87:43

[01 28:27.251 – 01:28:30.331] So the, um...

87:44

[01 28:30.331 – 01:28:37.531] I also probably agree with Powers' daughter, because I know another guy, I won't mention his name, he wrote a book too.

87:53

[01 28:37.531 – 01:28:44.091] You know, it's about all forms of addiction, you know, and my, uh, my friend Howard, crazy-

88:00

[01 28:44.272 – 01:28:44.762] Always called him.

88:01

[01 28:44.762 – 01:28:54.472] He used to say, "These guys are Bill Wilson impersonators." They just want to start their own movements and, uh, that guy Dietrich that started Synanon was the same way.

88:13

[01 28:54.472 – 01:29:00.612] He started AA in LA, you know, and he, he wanted to help drug addicts, but he wound up starting a cult.

88:21

[01 29:00.612 – 01:29:03.812] I was living in Marin County when that thing blew up.

88:26

[01 29:03.812 – 01:29:05.532] Hilarious.

88:27

[01 29:05.532 – 01:29:06.002] All right.

88:28

[01 29:06.002 – 01:29:06.832] Wasn't hilarious.

88:29

[01 29:06.832 – 01:29:07.342] Yeah.

88:30

[01 29:07.342 – 01:29:11.612] But the final question is simply what does that AAA stand for again?

88:35

[01 29:11.612 – 01:29:15.812] 'Cause I'm gonna look them up online and- All Addicts Anonymous.

88:39

[01 29:15.812 – 01:29:17.272] All Addicts Anonymous.

88:41

[01 29:17.272 – 01:29:17.672] Okay.

88:42

[01 29:17.672 – 01:29:18.552] Thank you very much.

88:43

[01 29:18.552 – 01:29:19.532] Great presentation.

88:45

[01 29:19.532 – 01:29:20.072] Uh-huh.

88:45

[01 29:20.072 – 01:29:21.632] Eduardo.

88:46

[01 29:21.632 – 01:29:23.372] Thank you, Roy.

88:48

[01 29:23.372 – 01:29:25.292] And next is Eduardo.

88:49

[01 29:25.292 – 01:29:26.172] You can unmute.

88:51

[01 29:26.172 – 01:29:35.952] Um, I have, first of all, I was, I put in a request to have your contact information, um, Jim.

88:59

[01 29:35.952 – 01:29:36.092] Oh.

89:00

[01 29:36.092 – 01:29:41.332] I'd like so much to, uh, be in contact with you, as I'm sure others, uh, have already indicated with that.

89:08

[01 29:41.332 – 01:29:43.872] Yeah, yeah, let me, uh, let me, let me do that.

89:12

[01 29:43.872 – 01:29:45.452] Uh, it's very easy.

89:14

[01 29:45.452 – 01:29:46.042] Okay.

89:15

[01 29:46.042 – 01:29:46.592] Yep.

89:16

[01 29:46.592 – 01:29:47.912] Jim in Cancun.

89:17

[01 29:47.912 – 01:29:50.712] jimincancun@gmail.com.

89:19

[01 29:50.712 – 01:29:54.232] If you have questions- Jim at Can- Oh, Jim in Cancun.

89:23

[01 29:54.232 – 01:29:54.572] Gotcha.

89:24

[01 29:54.572 – 01:29:54.902] Uh-huh.

89:25

[01 29:54.902 – 01:29:55.512] Okay.

89:26

[01 29:55.512 – 01:29:56.832] Jim in Cancun.

89:27

[01 29:56.832 – 01:29:57.182] At gmail.com.

89:29

[01 29:57.182 – 01:30:02.372] I'm not bragging or anything, but, uh, jimincancun@gmail.com.

89:33

[01 30:02.372 – 01:30:03.732] Okay, great.

89:34

[01 30:03.732 – 01:30:06.712] Also, uh, you know, a word from our sponsor.

89:38

[01 30:06.712 – 01:30:07.282] Sure.

89:38

[01 30:07.282 – 01:30:17.792] Uh, we also, uh, we also, uh, admin, uh, the Facebook page, AA History Only, uh, where we post, uh, AA history daily

89:47

[01 30:17.792 – 01:30:19.952] and answer questions that you may have.

89:50

[01 30:19.952 – 01:30:23.672] It's not a discussion page or an opinion page, it's just- Yep ...

89:55

[01 30:23.672 – 01:30:25.152] documented AA history.

89:57

[01 30:25.152 – 01:30:26.712] So go ahead, Eduardo.

89:59

[01 30:26.712 – 01:30:26.902] Sorry.

89:59

[01 30:26.902 – 01:30:27.492] Oh, nice.

90:00

[01 30:27.492 – 01:30:28.152] How nice.

90:02

[01 30:28.152 – 01:30:30.142] Um, couple of comments.

90:03

[01 30:30.142 – 01:30:31.112] I wish I had a question.

90:06

[01 30:31.112 – 01:30:33.412] Really, this here area is really for questions.

90:09

[01 30:33.412 – 01:30:40.672] We've been counseled, or guided is a better way, to try to stick to questions, but I am the last, uh, person.

90:18

[01 30:40.672 – 01:30:42.052] So couple of things.

90:20

[01 30:42.052 – 01:30:47.392] Back in the early days, when people took psychotropic medications, we called that...

90:25

[01 30:47.392 – 01:30:47.952] I didn't.

90:26

[01 30:47.952 – 01:30:52.911] There were people that called that a slip, that you couldn't be taking any medications.

90:32

[01 30:52.911 – 01:31:00.992] But so things change, and I think new- the World Service Office came out and said, "You guys are playing doctors.

90:41

[01 31:00.992 – 01:31:08.352] You want to be, be, uh, want to stop that." So we don't do that anymore, and it's very, you know, there might be, I don't know what the percentage is of people.

90:53

[01 31:08.352 – 01:31:10.912] So just things change over time.

90:56

[01 31:10.912 – 01:31:16.732] And so Bill was a pioneer, so there was no precedent.

91:00

[01 31:16.732 – 01:31:18.892] What will LSD do?

91:02

[01 31:18.892 – 01:31:28.952] And what they did for LSD sounds, um, different than any LSD that I might have taken, where I would even have a legitimate conversation would be

91:13

[01 31:28.952 – 01:31:33.872] out of the question when we were on the streets as teenagers growing up.

91:18

[01 31:33.872 – 01:31:42.752] But besides that, I wanted to say that, uh, I wrote a, a couple of notes was, so right now, talk about, um, LSD.

91:28

[01 31:42.752 – 01:31:52.852] Boston, and I'm sure other hospitals, are re-implementing it, are re-ex- uh, availing themselves to it as a means of helping people with various

91:37

[01 31:52.852 – 01:31:54.282] con- mental conditions.

91:39

[01 31:54.282 – 01:31:54.752] Oh, yeah.

91:40

[01 31:54.752 – 01:31:58.642] Uh- There, there's a lot of experimentation still going on with, uh- Yep ...

91:45

[01 31:58.642 – 01:32:07.172] psychedelics, uh, um, and, uh, uh, nowadays, just a lot, both in Canada and the United States, Australia.

91:52

[01 32:07.172 – 01:32:10.632] Yeah, there's a lot still going on, so.

91:56

[01 32:10.632 – 01:32:11.052] Yep.

91:56

[01 32:11.052 – 01:32:21.152] And so, uh, the other thing was, um, the, um, and they, they've now, uh, and it's been around for a number, they're using shock treatment,

92:06

[01 32:21.152 – 01:32:26.212] which most of us are familiar with One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, that it's only something harmful.

92:14

[01 32:26.212 – 01:32:27.572] But for others, it's helpful.

92:16

[01 32:27.572 – 01:32:31.632] So anyway, um, it, uh, your presentation is already...

92:20

[01 32:31.632 – 01:32:34.182] I'm just reiterating what somebody said.

92:22

[01 32:34.182 – 01:32:36.952] A very impressive, the thoroughness of it.

92:25

[01 32:36.952 – 01:32:39.592] I look forward to being in contact with you.

92:29

[01 32:39.592 – 01:32:46.632] Um, it was a delight, um, to be able to hear, you know, what you had to say, the thoroughness of it.

92:38

[01 32:46.632 – 01:32:51.582] So I was waiting for you to talk about Ernie when you s- when you brought that up.

92:45

[01 32:51.582 – 01:32:53.312] And I will add, end with this.

92:48

[01 32:53.312 – 01:32:54.162] Yeah.

92:49

[01 32:54.162 – 01:33:01.812] Bill bequeathed a little bit of money to a woman that thought, they thought that, they thought that he, he might be having af- an affair with.

92:59

[01 33:01.812 – 01:33:02.811] Yeah.

93:00

[01 33:02.811 – 01:33:05.452] Uh- He, uh, I, I saw that question in the chat.

93:04

[01 33:05.452 – 01:33:06.532] And, uh- Oh, good.

93:06

[01 33:06.532 – 01:33:08.642] I was gonna address that and say that- He bequeathed...

93:10

[01 33:08.642 – 01:33:09.512] Uh, let, let me answer.

93:13

[01 33:09.512 – 01:33:11.072] He bequeathed, uh- Go ahead ...

93:15

[01 33:11.072 – 01:33:17.252] uh, 10% of his, uh, uh, royalties to, uh, Helen Wynn.

93:19

[01 33:17.252 – 01:33:17.942] Yep.

93:20

[01 33:17.942 – 01:33:19.952] Uh, the woman that I had in the picture there.

93:24

[01 33:19.952 – 01:33:23.292] And, uh, bequeathed, uh, 10% of his...

93:26

[01 33:23.292 – 01:33:26.232] She only outlived him by about seven years.

93:30

[01 33:26.232 – 01:33:35.192] Um, but, uh, yeah, he did bequeath that to, uh, to her, 10% of his, uh, of his royalties.

93:37

[01 33:35.192 – 01:33:39.532] And as long as, uh, she lived, uh, Lois got the 90%.

93:41

[01 33:39.532 – 01:33:49.532] And the point you made earlier that, uh, and it was made by one of the listeners about Bill's ge- generous heart, is that he, he bequeathed

93:52

[01 33:49.532 – 01:33:52.712] other things to other people along the way, and you mentioned it.

93:57

[01 33:52.712 – 01:33:55.452] You know, royalties to a couple of the books that were written.

94:02

[01 33:55.452 – 01:34:00.472] So she wasn't the only one that he felt like that had played an important part of his life.

94:09

[01 34:00.472 – 01:34:02.202] And as you mentioned- Yeah.

94:11

[01 34:02.202 – 01:34:07.232] He didn't, he didn't leave any, uh, any of it, any, uh, money to them in his will, you know?

94:19

[01 34:07.232 – 01:34:07.492] Yeah.

94:20

[01 34:07.492 – 01:34:08.152] Yeah.

94:21

[01 34:08.152 – 01:34:10.432] But, but he bequeathed- He, he was generous to a lot of people.

94:26

[01 34:10.432 – 01:34:11.072] Many.

94:27

[01 34:11.072 – 01:34:12.252] Yeah, yeah.

94:28

[01 34:12.252 – 01:34:12.412] Yeah.

94:29

[01 34:12.412 – 01:34:13.181] Yeah, yeah.

94:30

[01 34:13.181 – 01:34:23.212] And, uh- And so I was gonna say that, uh, the, if w- if people do get to see the documentary about, um, that, uh, Hanlon, and I, I

94:41

[01 34:23.212 – 01:34:33.472] forget the last name, as you did too, that Gary mentioned, but the Bill W documentary, not to be confused with the Bill W Hallmark film, which came out around the,

94:53

[01 34:33.472 – 01:34:38.852] the one I'm talking about around 2011, um, when I first met, um, Mr.

94:58

[01 34:38.852 – 01:34:39.712] Hanlon.

94:59

[01 34:39.712 – 01:34:41.612] Uh, I don't know if his partner was with him.

95:03

[01 34:41.612 – 01:34:44.572] We were at an, an archives, uh, workshop.

95:07

[01 34:44.572 – 01:34:46.012] But, um- Okay.

95:08

[01 34:46.012 – 01:34:47.232] Great ...

95:09

[01 34:47.232 – 01:34:50.882] the, the point I was gonna make was, uh, about that was that- There was- ...

95:15

[01 34:50.882 – 01:35:00.892] if they see the documentary, they're gonna see that Helen's son is in the, in the shadows, and he starts to cry when he talks about the

95:25

[01 35:00.892 – 01:35:09.012] significance that Bill played in his mother's life being ma- rel- relatively stable or whatever she was dealing with.

95:33

[01 35:09.012 – 01:35:12.842] So it was q- it was quite a, a relationship- Thank you, Eduardo ...

95:38

[01 35:12.842 – 01:35:13.712] with mutual support.

95:40

[01 35:13.712 – 01:35:15.112] I'm done.

95:41

[01 35:15.112 – 01:35:15.792] Thank you.

95:42

[01 35:15.792 – 01:35:16.272] Thank you, Jim.

95:43

[01 35:16.272 – 01:35:16.972] Yep.

95:44

[01 35:16.972 – 01:35:21.912] Thank you, Eduardo, and thank you everyone for your questions.

95:48

[01 35:21.912 – 01:35:27.192] And thank you, Jim, for a great presentation tonight.

95:52

[01 35:27.192 – 01:35:30.812] And now I will allow everyone to unmute and thank Jim.

95:56

[01 35:30.812 – 01:35:32.232] Yeah.

95:57

[01 35:32.232 – 01:35:33.232] Hey, thanks, Jim.

95:59

[01 35:33.232 – 01:35:33.562] Appre-

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Tom Powers presented by Jim W presented by Tom Powers presented by Jim W – 2025-10-14

Tom Powers presented by Jim W presented by Tom Powers presented by Jim W – 2025-10-14

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