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const vttText = “WEBVTTnn1n00:00:01.500 –> 00:00:04.780nFebruary 27th, 1996.nn2n00:00:04.780 –> 00:00:07.839nI’m talking with James Houck.nn3n00:00:07.839 –> 00:00:10.339nI hope I said that correctly, James.nn4n00:00:10.339 –> 00:00:11.169nThat’s good.nn5n00:00:11.169 –> 00:00:11.638nI’m Jim Houck.nn6n00:00:11.638 –> 00:00:12.279nHi.nn7n00:00:12.279 –> 00:00:20.079nHi, and, uh, it’s so good to, uh, meet you again over the telephone lines, uh, all the way from Maryland.nn8n00:00:20.079 –> 00:00:25.219nAnd, uh, I have a couple pronouncing the name of the town that you live in.nn9n00:00:25.219 –> 00:00:26.899nIt’s- That’s right …nn10n00:00:26.899 –> 00:00:29.339nuh, Tanon- Tanonium?nn11n00:00:29.339 –> 00:00:30.780nThat’s, that’s perfect.nn12n00:00:30.780 –> 00:00:31.399nThat’s perfect.nn13n00:00:31.399 –> 00:00:32.560nTanonium, Maryland.nn14n00:00:32.560 –> 00:00:33.100nThat’s right.nn15n00:00:33.100 –> 00:00:43.200nUh, James, uh, is 90 years old and, uh, is, uh, probably the only person alive today, uh, who worked with Billnn16n00:00:43.200 –> 00:00:51.399nWilson, uh, when he was in the Oxford Group in, uh, New York, uh, back in, uh, mid-1930s.nn17n00:00:51.399 –> 00:01:01.439nAnd, uh, James, I’d like to start by, uh, asking you to, uh, give me a little bit of background information on, uh, where you were born and, uh, uh, where you grewnn18n00:01:01.439 –> 00:01:07.980nup and education and, and how you, uh, made contact with the Oxford Group, or how they made contact with you.nn19n00:01:07.980 –> 00:01:18.659nWell, I don’t know if I can, I can give you this in a nutshell, Wally, but I was born in a little town, uh,nn20n00:01:18.659 –> 00:01:20.859nin Maryland by the name of Walkersville.nn21n00:01:20.859 –> 00:01:22.040nOkay.nn22n00:01:22.040 –> 00:01:24.319nUh, February 21st, 1906.nn23n00:01:24.319 –> 00:01:32.359nAnd I, shortly after I was born, I, I moved into a farm in Churchville, which is just a short distance away.nn24n00:01:32.359 –> 00:01:42.859nI lived on this farm until I was 12 years old, and I moved to Frederick and, uh, spent most of my, uh,nn25n00:01:42.859 –> 00:01:46.200nyoung, uh, teenage life there.nn26n00:01:46.200 –> 00:01:56.420nI was, I was 12 years old when I moved to Frederick, and, uh, had very little, uh, uh, spiritual contact because we lived on a farmnn27n00:01:56.420 –> 00:02:02.420nand we didn’t go to church, uh, every Sunday or, uh, I don’t remember ever going to church from- Oh, okay …nn28n00:02:02.420 –> 00:02:02.920nfrom there.nn29n00:02:02.920 –> 00:02:08.879nI was, um, I was, I had never been baptized yet.nn30n00:02:08.879 –> 00:02:14.539nAnd before I could join church, they had to, uh, the same day as I joined church, they baptized me.nn31n00:02:14.539 –> 00:02:20.379nBut going back to my, I had my first drink when I was five years old.nn32n00:02:20.379 –> 00:02:20.659nOoh.nn33n00:02:20.659 –> 00:02:27.900nUh, I, I used to, uh, uh, get into my mother’s dandelion wine, and then I’d fill the bottle with water so she wouldn’t know it.nn34n00:02:27.900 –> 00:02:37.319nAnd, uh, I had the distinction, I guess, as the only child who took a, a pint of dandelion wine to school with him the first day of school.nn35n00:02:37.319 –> 00:02:40.039nI thought that was par for the course.nn36n00:02:40.039 –> 00:02:43.539nI’d been drinking all along, so, uh, I just kept on.nn37n00:02:43.539 –> 00:02:45.379nBoy, talk about an early drinker.nn38n00:02:45.379 –> 00:02:46.919nTaking it to school.nn39n00:02:46.919 –> 00:02:48.780nYou think about the first grade?nn40n00:02:48.780 –> 00:02:54.020nFirst grade, I took a bottle of wine to school with me the, the first day.nn41n00:02:54.020 –> 00:03:01.680nUh, so, uh, I continued all through my teenage drinking to, to drink, uh, wine.nn42n00:03:01.680 –> 00:03:11.719nThen in, uh, 1918, while the fellows were away at war, the, uh, the women got together and formed the Prohibition Movement-nn43n00:03:11.719 –> 00:03:11.870nYeah …nn44n00:03:11.870 –> 00:03:18.199nand voted, uh, uh, liquor out of the country, and we didn’t have any more of it until, I think, 1933.nn45n00:03:18.199 –> 00:03:27.840nSo, so during that time, we had to, uh, we had to, uh, uh, make, uh, uh, make home brew- Yeah …nn46n00:03:27.840 –> 00:03:38.180nand, uh, depend on, uh, what they called ban- uh, uh, ban shotgun and, and, uh, and, and home brew,nn47n00:03:38.180 –> 00:03:43.879nuh, uh, rotgut liquor that was, was brewed, uh, in some spikes.nn48n00:03:43.879 –> 00:03:47.280nAnd, and there was no bar rooms, of course, in those days.nn49n00:03:47.280 –> 00:03:51.759nWe had to meet in people’s homes, and this is what we did on weekends.nn50n00:03:51.759 –> 00:03:52.500nOkay.nn51n00:03:52.500 –> 00:03:56.680nUh, I went to high school, uh, on that basis.nn52n00:03:56.680 –> 00:04:03.969nAnd, uh, and, um, I, uh, I got married in, uh, 19 twen- 1930.nn53n00:04:03.969 –> 00:04:12.860nAnd, uh, that was a, a sort of a rocky marriage because I didn’t want to be tied down.nn54n00:04:12.860 –> 00:04:16.480nI was a, was a sort of a free agent.nn55n00:04:16.480 –> 00:04:20.139nUh, I liked to roam, roaming, uh, roam the range.nn56n00:04:20.139 –> 00:04:20.939nOkay.nn57n00:04:20.939 –> 00:04:23.009nWhat were you doing for work at the time?nn58n00:04:23.009 –> 00:04:33.720nWell, I, uh, I, I, uh, I got a job, uh, with the power company when, uh, 19, uh, I guess 1930.nn59n00:04:33.720 –> 00:04:34.829nI got a…nn60n00:04:34.829 –> 00:04:41.180nIn the meantime, I’ve been to Florida and just, uh, uh, shopping around with different power companies.nn61n00:04:41.180 –> 00:04:43.779nI worked with Florida Power & Light in Florida.nn62n00:04:43.779 –> 00:04:44.600nOkay.nn63n00:04:44.600 –> 00:04:48.899nAnd I, I was, I, I played athletics all my life.nn64n00:04:48.899 –> 00:04:52.779nAnd, uh, I got involved with the basketball team down there.nn65n00:04:52.779 –> 00:04:57.279nWe, uh, barnstormed out through the Midwest for two years in the wintertime.nn66n00:04:57.279 –> 00:05:03.180nI did that, then I went- Well, you sure were a free spirit, weren’t you?nn67n00:05:03.180 –> 00:05:04.158nOh, yeah.nn68n00:05:04.158 –> 00:05:11.079nWhen I’d come back, then I would get, I’d get a job wherever I could and, and fill in until it was time to go.nn69n00:05:11.079 –> 00:05:14.660nI just had to look to go again.nn70n00:05:14.660 –> 00:05:22.180nAnd then, uh, I met a girl at Hood College in Frederick, Maryland, and we fell in love.nn71n00:05:22.180 –> 00:05:29.500nAnd, uh, uh, after we were married a f- uh, we were married a month, I guess, and I told her that I was sorry.nn72n00:05:29.500 –> 00:05:33.180nI was sorry because, uh, I, I didn’t want to be tied down.nn73n00:05:33.180 –> 00:05:41.439nAnd her family had said, her family told me they’d investigated me, and they had told her I wasn’t any good.nn74n00:05:41.439 –> 00:05:47.379nAnd she was, she was very proud, so she wasn’t about to go home and say, “You were right.nn75n00:05:47.379 –> 00:05:50.459nThis guy wasn’t any good.” So she decided to stick it out.nn76n00:05:50.459 –> 00:05:59.579nAnd so we went forward on a, on a, on a, uh, armistice marriage- Armistice …nn77n00:05:59.579 –> 00:06:05.100nwhich was going nowhere but downhill, uh, until I, uh, until I met the Oxford Group.nn78n00:06:05.100 –> 00:06:12.348nAnd, uh- Uh, that got me in the Oxford Group is a long story.nn79n00:06:12.348 –> 00:06:22.398nThere was a, there was a fellow who owned a, uh, he was president of a hosiery mill there in Frederick, and he had met the Oxford Group, and he- Okay …thoughtnn80n00:06:22.398 –> 00:06:24.267nthat this would be a good thing for me.nn81n00:06:24.267 –> 00:06:34.288nSo he kept insisting, uh, engineering every way to get me into the Oxford Group, until finally one night we did,nn82n00:06:34.288 –> 00:06:38.728nuh, meet the Oxford Group, and that was in Frederick.nn83n00:06:38.728 –> 00:06:49.187nAnd, uh, and he- When you said to meet the Oxford Group, are you talking about just meet, uh, some Oxford Group members, or you actually went to the- Yeah, what happened was that he invitednn84n00:06:49.187 –> 00:06:56.367na, a team of Oxford Group fellows to come from Washington up to, uh, up to Frederick.nn85n00:06:56.367 –> 00:07:06.367nAnd, uh, he had some of his mill people, the, and the fellows in the mill come, and we met in a room that, uh,nn86n00:07:06.367 –> 00:07:17.067nuh, when I was, let’s see, when, when I was 12 years old, that was, uh, uh, like I was, uh,nn87n00:07:17.067 –> 00:07:18.048nabout, uh…nn88n00:07:18.048 –> 00:07:25.387nWell, this is ’34, so that’d have to be, what, 16 years, uh, before that.nn89n00:07:25.387 –> 00:07:35.447nI had made a decision, uh, to give my life to God in an evangelistic meeting, uh, in, in, in the W- in that YMCA, in that same YMCAnn90n00:07:35.447 –> 00:07:36.146nroom.nn91n00:07:36.146 –> 00:07:36.218nOh.nn92n00:07:36.218 –> 00:07:37.788nUh, but it didn’t take.nn93n00:07:37.788 –> 00:07:38.648nDidn’t take.nn94n00:07:38.648 –> 00:07:38.788nIt didn’t take.nn95n00:07:38.788 –> 00:07:48.927nI didn’t– I saw so-called Christians around me, and, and they weren’t living any different than I was, so I thought that was just par for the course, so I thoughtnn96n00:07:48.927 –> 00:07:53.427nI was in the, uh, I was in the, uh, I was in the ballgame.nn97n00:07:53.427 –> 00:08:00.627nBut, so then I got involved in the church there because I was teaching Sunday school, uh, when I met the Oxford Group.nn98n00:08:00.627 –> 00:08:09.687nBut, uh, uh, what I talked about on, on Sunday morning had no relationship to what I did on Saturday night.nn99n00:08:09.687 –> 00:08:15.507nAnd, uh, I found that, uh, alcohol was not my problem at all.nn100n00:08:15.507 –> 00:08:17.468nMy problem was dishonesty.nn101n00:08:17.468 –> 00:08:18.887nOkay.nn102n00:08:18.887 –> 00:08:27.528nAnd, uh, so I, uh, worked for a power company at that time, and I, I, uh, I got paid a salary.nn103n00:08:27.528 –> 00:08:36.888nBut I worked overtime, and I didn’t get paid overtime, so I felt perfectly justified in padding my expense account to make up the difference.nn104n00:08:36.888 –> 00:08:37.628nOh, okay.nn105n00:08:37.628 –> 00:08:40.008nI even had a jumper on my electric meter.nn106n00:08:40.008 –> 00:08:43.488nKnew how to do that, of course.nn107n00:08:43.488 –> 00:08:46.268nI, yep, I was in the meter department, and I knew how to do it.nn108n00:08:46.268 –> 00:08:51.408nI, I paid, I paid one week’s current out of, out of the month.nn109n00:08:51.408 –> 00:08:57.128nAnd then so the thing that hit me between the eyes was, uh, w-was absolute honesty.nn110n00:08:57.128 –> 00:08:57.788nOh.nn111n00:08:57.788 –> 00:09:08.217nAnd, uh, that led into a, into a, a, a, uh, whole bag of worms that had to be hatchednn112n00:09:08.217 –> 00:09:09.268nand straightened out.nn113n00:09:09.268 –> 00:09:19.947nAnd then, uh, Bookman and the Oxford Group, and we still worked in touch on it, some of the 12 steps, but he didn’t,nn114n00:09:19.947 –> 00:09:22.008ndidn’t emphasize it as much as Bookman did.nn115n00:09:22.008 –> 00:09:23.727nAnd this was restitution.nn116n00:09:23.727 –> 00:09:29.607nUh, and I think that’s, uh, with-without, uh…nn117n00:09:29.607 –> 00:09:34.548nWell, the restitution opens up, uh, the, the, the, the whole thing.nn118n00:09:34.548 –> 00:09:37.437nUh- It frees the soul, so to speak.nn119n00:09:37.437 –> 00:09:47.567nWell, I always thought restitution was something that you cleaned your own slate, and you got a good feeling inside, and all, all cleaned up and ready to go.nn120n00:09:47.567 –> 00:09:48.967nAnd sure, it’s that.nn121n00:09:48.967 –> 00:09:56.317nIn fact, it’s what, it’s the most important thing and the biggest thing, Wally, is what it does for the other fellow.nn122n00:09:56.317 –> 00:10:00.038nNow, let me give you- Oh, okay …a quick story about that.nn123n00:10:00.038 –> 00:10:01.107nYes, please do.nn124n00:10:01.107 –> 00:10:06.807nUh, when, when, uh, I was 12 years old there in Frederick, it was back in 1918.nn125n00:10:06.807 –> 00:10:16.457nUh, I, I worked for a fellow who had an electric store, and I worked for a nickel an hour.nn126n00:10:16.457 –> 00:10:20.028nI worked 10 hours a day, so I got 50 cents a day.nn127n00:10:20.028 –> 00:10:21.488nI worked six days a week.nn128n00:10:21.488 –> 00:10:22.807nI got three bucks a week.nn129n00:10:22.807 –> 00:10:28.768nAnd I became fascinated with the electric bulbs and wires and extensions and all.nn130n00:10:28.768 –> 00:10:30.847nI wanted to put these in my home.nn131n00:10:30.847 –> 00:10:36.827nUh, and, uh, so I couldn’t buy them, so I stole them from him.nn132n00:10:36.827 –> 00:10:46.677nSo now, now 18 years later, I go back to, uh, uh, uh, I had to go back to him to make a restitution.nn133n00:10:46.677 –> 00:10:55.788nUh, it so happened at that time, he and I were both elders on the same church board- Oh, my …which made it a little sticky on the deal.nn134n00:10:55.788 –> 00:11:02.008nBut, uh, I wanted to give him the money, and he said, “Well, I’ll have to give it to the church.nn135n00:11:02.008 –> 00:11:05.607nI, I don’t want this.” I said, “Well, that’s your problem, not mine.nn136n00:11:05.607 –> 00:11:12.207nMy problem is to, is to pay you back, uh, this money.” And then he said a strange thing.nn137n00:11:12.207 –> 00:11:23.567nHe said, “Do you have time for coffee?” And I said, “Yeah.” So we went across the street, and he says, uh, “Look, uh, I never had anyone to get honest with me the way you were.” Andnn138n00:11:23.567 –> 00:11:31.648nhe, he said, uh, “I, I feel happy and honest with you.” He says, uh, “My, my wife and I are on the verge of divorce.nn139n00:11:31.648 –> 00:11:37.048nI haven’t been true to her, and, and, uh, the papers are drawn.nn140n00:11:37.048 –> 00:11:38.687nI just didn’t weigh out.nn141n00:11:38.687 –> 00:11:40.707nBut you gave me an idea.nn142n00:11:40.707 –> 00:11:47.727nI’m going to go back and be absolutely honest with her about my life and see if I can’t straighten this out,” which they did.nn143n00:11:47.727 –> 00:11:50.467nAnd they, they, they never got divorced.nn144n00:11:50.467 –> 00:11:51.727nWow.nn145n00:11:51.727 –> 00:11:59.648nThe important thing was that that came through, ’cause that galvanized in my mind the necessity and the importance of restitution.nn146n00:11:59.648 –> 00:12:03.327nNot just for yourself, but for the other person also.nn147n00:12:03.327 –> 00:12:04.087nThis is right.nn148n00:12:04.087 –> 00:12:14.120nYou see, every, uh, Wally, everyone has an experience, uh, has had an experience of resti- And not, not realizing, uh, what it was or the importancenn149n00:12:14.120 –> 00:12:14.740nof it.nn150n00:12:14.740 –> 00:12:25.080nBut every one of us has had an opportunity where sometime in our life we’ve been at loggerheads with someone, and we’ve said, uh, something to that personnn151n00:12:25.080 –> 00:12:26.500nthat we’re sorry for.nn152n00:12:26.500 –> 00:12:29.570nWe’ve often gone back and said, “Look, I’m sorry.nn153n00:12:29.570 –> 00:12:37.159nI didn’t mean what I said at that time.” And very where the other person will say, “Well, look, uh, it wasn’t all your fault.nn154n00:12:37.159 –> 00:12:38.600nI had a part in it, too.nn155n00:12:38.600 –> 00:12:48.639nSo let’s, uh, let’s, uh, let’s, let’s just forget about saying it.” But what has happened there, uh, what has been a barrier betweennn156n00:12:48.639 –> 00:12:58.720nthe, the, a vertical barrier between those two people now becomes a horizontal bridge which a new relationship is gonna open.nn157n00:12:58.720 –> 00:13:07.600nYou, you get across that bridge into the other person’s life as you’ve never done before, and that is the simplest form of restitution I can think of.nn158n00:13:07.600 –> 00:13:17.620nIt happens, but, but you can, you can, can understand what I’m talking about here, of how restitution builds a new relationship, uh, with, uh, with,nn159n00:13:17.620 –> 00:13:18.919nwith people, you see?nn160n00:13:18.919 –> 00:13:19.820nOh, that’s it.nn161n00:13:19.820 –> 00:13:22.480nAnd it’s the ideal way to open a witness, too.nn162n00:13:22.480 –> 00:13:22.940nYes.nn163n00:13:22.940 –> 00:13:26.320nIs you go back to someone that you’ve been at loggerheads with them.nn164n00:13:26.320 –> 00:13:29.960nYou, you’ve wronged in some way and make restitution for that.nn165n00:13:29.960 –> 00:13:39.980nThat opens up a whole new, uh, um, um, let’s, let’s say reception room in the other person’s life where, where they receive,nn166n00:13:39.980 –> 00:13:43.919nuh, things from you and other people that, that would have never taken before.nn167n00:13:43.919 –> 00:13:49.200nA-And, uh, so this is the reason Bookman insisted on restitution.nn168n00:13:49.200 –> 00:13:50.659nThat’s very important.nn169n00:13:50.659 –> 00:13:53.860nThat’s a, that’s a very important aspect of this deal.nn170n00:13:53.860 –> 00:13:56.840nAnd, uh- You talk about Bookman.nn171n00:13:56.840 –> 00:14:00.200nNow, of course, you’ve– I’m sure you had a chance to get to know him over the years.nn172n00:14:00.200 –> 00:14:02.179nOh, I knew Frank very well, yes.nn173n00:14:02.179 –> 00:14:12.179nUm, can you just describe, uh, how he, uh, acted, uh, uh, how he, uh, conducted his business, uh,nn174n00:14:12.179 –> 00:14:14.139nwhen he was just, uh, with you?nn175n00:14:14.139 –> 00:14:24.279nJust, uh, uh, did he emphasize anything in particular in terms of, of what he was passing on, or did he even mention at all where any of this, uh,nn176n00:14:24.279 –> 00:14:32.080nguidance that he had received was coming from in terms of, uh, uh, maybe background and religion or, or anything along those lines?nn177n00:14:32.080 –> 00:14:35.139nDo you ever know where Frank, uh, uh…nn178n00:14:35.139 –> 00:14:42.100nWell, I’m well aware of his, uh, spiritual experience, uh, in, what, Keswick, England, I think about 1909.nn179n00:14:42.100 –> 00:14:44.700nUm- It was in Keswick, yeah.nn180n00:14:44.700 –> 00:14:45.200nYes.nn181n00:14:45.200 –> 00:14:45.480nYeah.nn182n00:14:45.480 –> 00:14:49.379nWith a lady preacher, and he saw the, uh, vision of the cross.nn183n00:14:49.379 –> 00:14:50.440nThat’s right.nn184n00:14:50.440 –> 00:15:00.399nUh, did he ever talk about anything else that he used, uh, or where he picked up any of the other material, especially like the guidance and the, uh, the, uh, uh, quiet time or any of that?nn185n00:15:00.399 –> 00:15:03.799nYeah.nn186n00:15:03.799 –> 00:15:13.100nUh, uh, uh, he, he drew a lot from, uh, from, uh, some of the early evangelists, uh, particularly, uh, uh, uh, Henry Drummond.nn187n00:15:13.100 –> 00:15:17.740nUh, he drew, he drew a lot from, from, from, from, from, from Henry.nn188n00:15:17.740 –> 00:15:25.840nAnd, uh, oh, uh, when we, uh…nn189n00:15:25.840 –> 00:15:35.120nIt’s a dangerous thing when we interpret God to our understanding, ’cause I’ve heard– I’ve had certain sponsors refer to God.nn190n00:15:35.120 –> 00:15:43.899nThey said, “Well, uh, the God of your understanding, you can think of God as, as a light bulb or, or, or, or a doorknob,” they say.nn191n00:15:43.899 –> 00:15:48.980nWell, now, uh, a doorknob or a light bulb has no power to change people’s lives.nn192n00:15:48.980 –> 00:15:49.139nNo.nn193n00:15:49.139 –> 00:15:49.620nSee?nn194n00:15:49.620 –> 00:15:57.259nUh, a-a-and that is the, uh, and that, uh, uh, then you lose the power of God in, in your life.nn195n00:15:57.259 –> 00:16:03.659nSo, uh, uh, on the meeting thing, things, uh- Yes.nn196n00:16:03.659 –> 00:16:08.080nUh, can you run through, uh, an Oxford Group meeting, how it would open and any type of format?nn197n00:16:08.080 –> 00:16:10.480nOkay.nn198n00:16:10.480 –> 00:16:18.759nWe would, uh, uh, uh, we would have a, uh, we would have a, uh, a, uh, uh…nn199n00:16:18.759 –> 00:16:24.269nI’m trying to think how to describe this, this, this, this.nn200n00:16:24.269 –> 00:16:29.960nWell, it, it was, it was, it was quite a different type of spiritual meeting.nn201n00:16:29.960 –> 00:16:41.500nUh, there, there, uh, there was a, uh, there, there was not a great deal of, uh, of, uh, uh,nn202n00:16:41.500 –> 00:16:50.840necclesiasticism or, uh, or, uh, uh, uh, or theological endeavor.nn203n00:16:50.840 –> 00:16:53.879nFor in-for instance, we didn’t open the meeting with prayer.nn204n00:16:53.879 –> 00:16:55.720nWe didn’t open the meeting with scripture.nn205n00:16:55.720 –> 00:16:58.740nUh, but yet, uh, that meeting would develop.nn206n00:16:58.740 –> 00:17:02.899nIt would be one of the greatest religious experiences that you could- Okay.nn207n00:17:02.899 –> 00:17:04.970n-that you could imagine.nn208n00:17:04.970 –> 00:17:06.640nUh, there was a lot of levity.nn209n00:17:06.640 –> 00:17:09.739nThere was a lot of hilarity in the, uh- Oh, okay.nn210n00:17:09.739 –> 00:17:10.680n-in, in, in the movement.nn211n00:17:10.680 –> 00:17:13.900nUh- That’s the first time I’ve heard that, too.nn212n00:17:13.900 –> 00:17:14.798nOh, yeah.nn213n00:17:14.798 –> 00:17:22.099nAnd, uh, the, the, uh, there would be a, uh, one person would be in charge of, of the, of the meeting.nn214n00:17:22.099 –> 00:17:26.960nIf it was a large meeting, people, the people who were going to speak would be on a platform.nn215n00:17:27.922 –> 00:17:28.402nWith them.nn216n00:17:28.402 –> 00:17:29.162nOkay.nn217n00:17:29.162 –> 00:17:39.162nAnd, uh, and they would, uh, they would, uh, uh, the, the, the main speaker would,nn218n00:17:39.162 –> 00:17:49.582nwould, uh, would make some statement or maybe say something about himself, and then he would in- intro– uh, he would introduce each speakernn219n00:17:49.582 –> 00:17:52.822nindividually as, as, as they spoke.nn220n00:17:52.822 –> 00:18:02.862nAnd the difference between the testimony you hear in a AA meeting to the testimony you heard in Oxford Group meeting was a great difference in, innn221n00:18:02.862 –> 00:18:04.062nthe kind of testimony.nn222n00:18:04.062 –> 00:18:08.342nNow, you say what, you know, well, how would you…nn223n00:18:08.342 –> 00:18:10.002nW- what is different?nn224n00:18:10.002 –> 00:18:10.942nOkay.nn225n00:18:10.942 –> 00:18:12.682nI, uh, is, I’ll go backwards.nn226n00:18:12.682 –> 00:18:22.172nIn the AA m- m- movement is the, the thing, uh, that we have is the people telling what terrible drunks they were.nn227n00:18:22.172 –> 00:18:23.622nOh my God, the drunk aloft.nn228n00:18:23.622 –> 00:18:26.732nAnd each person tries to outdo the other- Yep …nn229n00:18:26.732 –> 00:18:32.222nin making, painting themself how far they were down the ladder and how far they had to come back, you know.nn230n00:18:32.222 –> 00:18:40.302nAnd they take the whole time to tell of that terrible experience, and they take no time at all to tell them what God is doing in their life now- Yeah …nn231n00:18:40.302 –> 00:18:42.522nyou see, except to say, “I have…nn232n00:18:42.522 –> 00:18:48.742nI have ten year, now I have ten years of sobriety,” and that’s it.nn233n00:18:48.742 –> 00:18:49.382nBoom, see.nn234n00:18:49.382 –> 00:18:59.452nThey don’t tell what the, what kind of a, of a, uh, the healing of a, maybe a family relationship that results in, in them, uh, not, uh,nn235n00:18:59.452 –> 00:19:02.822nuh, coming out of that terrible state they’ve just described.nn236n00:19:02.822 –> 00:19:11.002nUh, and the victory they’ve just, just had, they’re saying, and what’s happening in other people’s lives because of their change.nn237n00:19:11.002 –> 00:19:16.182nUh, and, and these are the things that inspire people to, to, uh, to want to change.nn238n00:19:16.182 –> 00:19:22.982nUh, Oxford Group, of course, there was, uh, very little mentioned about alcohol at that time.nn239n00:19:22.982 –> 00:19:26.412nYes, it was pretty much a problem to drink, yeah, but that was not the big issue.nn240n00:19:26.412 –> 00:19:28.782nIt was broken relationships.nn241n00:19:28.782 –> 00:19:30.942nIt was, uh, it was healing.nn242n00:19:30.942 –> 00:19:40.622nIt was, they, they would tell stories of, of, uh, of, uh, uh, how God had come into their life and had completely changed their life.nn243n00:19:40.622 –> 00:19:43.712nIt was stories about guidance, what guidance they had- Yeah …nn244n00:19:43.712 –> 00:19:53.802nwhat indulgent guidance, uh, how this brought them into a new relationship with people, or how, uh, their, because of following their, their, their guidance,nn245n00:19:53.802 –> 00:19:58.421nuh, uh, certain changes resulted, uh, you know, maybe in a town.nn246n00:19:58.421 –> 00:19:58.851nYes.nn247n00:19:58.851 –> 00:20:02.162nWhere maybe the mayor got changed and certain things happened after that.nn248n00:20:02.162 –> 00:20:06.562nAnd these are the things, uh, that are meaningful in people’s lives.nn249n00:20:06.562 –> 00:20:07.622nAbsolutely agree.nn250n00:20:07.622 –> 00:20:13.582nAnd then they get beyond, uh, just a personal, uh, uh, uh, a personal relief.nn251n00:20:13.582 –> 00:20:23.842nNow, I believe that’s one of the reasons why that people, uh, uh, are, are, are, um, uh, are sticking to, uh, j- just, uh,nn252n00:20:23.842 –> 00:20:34.022ntrying to keep themselves, uh, sober because, uh, the, the, the, the evasion that we are, have, or the level that we’ve reached in our evasion is suchnn253n00:20:34.022 –> 00:20:44.902nthat it’s almost, uh, just a, a personal problem now, and it doesn’t become, uh, uh, uh, relatednn254n00:20:44.902 –> 00:20:46.562nto how you can change the world.nn255n00:20:46.562 –> 00:20:49.282nSee, Bookman’s idea was always- Yeah …nn256n00:20:49.282 –> 00:20:53.182nto change people, which results in changing the world.nn257n00:20:53.182 –> 00:20:53.571nChanging the world.nn258n00:20:53.571 –> 00:21:03.582nHe said, “You can vote a Democrat this, and vote a Republican that, or vice versa, but unless you deal with the basic motives of those people who involvenn259n00:21:03.582 –> 00:21:03.732nyou- Yep …nn260n00:21:03.732 –> 00:21:06.882nyou’ll always end up with the same thing.” And that’s true.nn261n00:21:06.882 –> 00:21:09.622nGotta get to the, uh, the cause and condition.nn262n00:21:09.622 –> 00:21:10.402nThat’s right.nn263n00:21:10.402 –> 00:21:16.682nWell, that is a, that is an uncanny, uh, uh, observation about the AA meetings.nn264n00:21:16.682 –> 00:21:23.582nUh, I make it a point, uh, to, uh, state from the podium that I’m not gonna do a drunk aloft just because of that.nn265n00:21:23.582 –> 00:21:25.222nI, I hear far too much of it.nn266n00:21:25.222 –> 00:21:35.242nAnd, uh, I’ll do my, uh, my story in, in less than two minutes, and then the rest of the hour is all on, uh, the, thenn267n00:21:35.242 –> 00:21:37.312nconversion experience and, uh- That’s good …nn268n00:21:37.312 –> 00:21:38.342nand my life afterwards.nn269n00:21:38.342 –> 00:21:38.772nThat’s good.nn270n00:21:38.772 –> 00:21:43.022nThat’s the way it should be, but I, I, I’m not hearing that in- Oh, I’m not either …nn271n00:21:43.022 –> 00:21:43.242nAA, you see.nn272n00:21:43.242 –> 00:21:43.582nNo.nn273n00:21:43.582 –> 00:21:46.081nUh- Well, it may be different now than mine does.nn274n00:21:46.081 –> 00:21:52.012nNo, there’s just a few of us doing this be– And we’re doing it because this is the way we’ve been, we’ve heard it from the old-timers in AA.nn275n00:21:52.012 –> 00:21:54.142nThat’s the, the, that’s right, you see.nn276n00:21:54.142 –> 00:22:04.262nAnd you see, uh, uh, while, uh, uh, the, on the 12-step program, uh, uh, if you analyze this, this, alcoholic is only mentioned once in the wholenn277n00:22:04.262 –> 00:22:04.392nthing.nn278n00:22:04.392 –> 00:22:04.901nThat’s right.nn279n00:22:04.901 –> 00:22:05.742nOnly once.nn280n00:22:05.742 –> 00:22:06.582nThat’s in the first step.nn281n00:22:06.582 –> 00:22:09.682nAnd after that- He doesn’t mention alcohol.nn282n00:22:09.682 –> 00:22:12.102nHe mentions alcoholic in the last step, but, well, that’s alcoholic.nn283n00:22:12.102 –> 00:22:15.302nBut alcoholic, God, is only mentioned in the first step.nn284n00:22:15.302 –> 00:22:22.642nAnd it, uh, uh, they meant, uh, when they designed the 12 steps, they managed to deal with the whole person.nn285n00:22:22.642 –> 00:22:23.362nYes.nn286n00:22:23.362 –> 00:22:30.302nUh, but, uh, because you’re emphasizing alcohol, it’s, uh, it sort of gravitated to that level.nn287n00:22:30.302 –> 00:22:34.782nAnd I think we, we’ve had more to offer people than just, just…nn288n00:22:34.782 –> 00:22:45.102nAnd because, uh, uh, we need to, we need, we need to at- attract, uh, uh, people in other, other areas.nn289n00:22:45.102 –> 00:22:51.802nThe thing I’m running to in here is that you have an alcoholic wife or an alcoholic husband, you see.nn290n00:22:51.802 –> 00:23:01.902nUh, well, uh, well, uh, they aren’t interested, the husband or the wife that’s not the alcoholic is not interested in going along unless they arenn291n00:23:01.902 –> 00:23:04.282ndragged into an Al-Anon meeting or something.nn292n00:23:04.282 –> 00:23:10.122nBut in general, they’re not interested because they think, uh, uh, uh, that’s not their problem.nn293n00:23:10.122 –> 00:23:11.702nSo, so they don’t…nn294n00:23:11.702 –> 00:23:19.102nBut yet, there may be a, an unsolved relationship existing between the two of them that, that remains untouched.nn295n00:23:19.102 –> 00:23:29.326nAnd that is the, that is the, the, the overall philosophy the Oxford Group goes into, into, uh- bedrock intonn296n00:23:29.326 –> 00:23:33.526neveryone’s life with the four standards that touches every area.nn297n00:23:33.526 –> 00:23:41.446nUh, and you’ve got to be very, very, uh, callous person if you aren’t touched in some way, uh, by that philosophy.nn298n00:23:41.446 –> 00:23:51.526nIn terms of the, uh, Oxford group meetings, who– did anybody that, uh, you remember that was particularly,nn299n00:23:51.526 –> 00:23:56.566nuh, uh, inspirational, uh, in being able to carry that message?nn300n00:23:56.566 –> 00:24:06.375nUh, were there– I know some people could speak better than others, but, uh, uh, who were the most inspirational people in your life, uh, especially those early days in the thirties?nn301n00:24:06.375 –> 00:24:12.466nAnybody that, uh, that sticks out, uh, as being particularly- Sam, Sam Humeko, of course.nn302n00:24:12.466 –> 00:24:13.686nHe really, he really could do it.nn303n00:24:13.686 –> 00:24:20.686nI’ve only read, uh, uh, his material, and he, he spoke once at an AA meeting in nineteen sixty, and that’s on tape.nn304n00:24:20.686 –> 00:24:28.866nUh, and I– and once in nineteen sixty-three or four, uh, uh, on the, uh, history of AA.nn305n00:24:28.866 –> 00:24:31.026nThose are the only two times I’ve ever heard him on tape.nn306n00:24:31.026 –> 00:24:31.966nSo- Yeah …nn307n00:24:31.966 –> 00:24:33.786nhe really, he really had the magic, huh?nn308n00:24:33.786 –> 00:24:34.576nHe really could- Oh, yeah.nn309n00:24:34.576 –> 00:24:35.966nThere wasn’t any question about that.nn310n00:24:35.966 –> 00:24:45.946nAnd then, of course, uh, uh, uh, Bookman himself was, uh, he was a very direct speaker, but he was not, he was not a personable fella.nn311n00:24:45.946 –> 00:24:48.396nOther words, he’s a, he was not an attractive fella.nn312n00:24:48.396 –> 00:24:50.406nHe wasn’t a physically attractive fella.nn313n00:24:50.406 –> 00:24:58.626nUh, but yet he had, uh, a spiritual spark, a dynamic about him that you, you– that, that did something to you.nn314n00:24:58.626 –> 00:25:08.006nI guess one of the greatest life changes I ever met in my life was a fellow, the name of Cleve Hicks, uh, who was the son of a Presbyterian minister.nn315n00:25:08.006 –> 00:25:15.506nAnd, uh, uh, he, he had a way about him of going, going directly into people’s lives.nn316n00:25:15.506 –> 00:25:21.666nI would, uh, I would– in the early day, we had elevators, boys that running elevators.nn317n00:25:21.666 –> 00:25:31.766nAnd I’d be in a conference, and we’d be, we’d get on an elevator, and before we got to the floor, uh, this fellow, Cleve Hicks, was talking to this elevator boy about the deepest thingsnn318n00:25:31.766 –> 00:25:32.546nin his life.nn319n00:25:32.546 –> 00:25:32.696nWow.nn320n00:25:32.696 –> 00:25:40.026nAnd not in a sanctimonious, uh, hallelujah, praise the Lord type of way at all, but just in a very practical way.nn321n00:25:40.026 –> 00:25:41.586nHe had, he had something in him.nn322n00:25:41.586 –> 00:25:45.086nHe’d go right into that person’s life and ask his right questions, you know.nn323n00:25:45.086 –> 00:25:52.366nUh, and, uh, and, and Cleve Hicks, he was only forty-five wh-when, when he died.nn324n00:25:52.366 –> 00:25:57.666nHe just– those fellows, or many of those guys died early, including Peter Harris.nn325n00:25:57.666 –> 00:26:06.946nSo they just burned themselves out in their, in their vigor and their endeavor to carry this message into the lives of, of all the people that they’d met.nn326n00:26:06.946 –> 00:26:17.686nAnd, uh, in the early day, Bookman had a team of about, uh, varied, but it was usually around a hundred and fifty young, unmarried,nn327n00:26:17.686 –> 00:26:24.626nuh, uh, mostly men, people who could move, uh, to a trouble spot overnight.nn328n00:26:24.626 –> 00:26:25.966nThey’d move, uh…nn329n00:26:25.966 –> 00:26:30.785nBut now that’s no longer possible in the Oxfor– in the modern movement.nn330n00:26:30.785 –> 00:26:32.306nSee, people are resident people.nn331n00:26:32.306 –> 00:26:33.126nThey have families.nn332n00:26:33.126 –> 00:26:34.946nThey, they’re not mobile like they were.nn333n00:26:34.946 –> 00:26:42.046nBut Bookman had the ability to move this thing to any part of the world overnight if he wanted to, and he did this often.nn334n00:26:42.046 –> 00:26:42.606nOh, yes.nn335n00:26:42.606 –> 00:26:44.506nWell, that’s how it came to Akron, Ohio.nn336n00:26:44.506 –> 00:26:45.186nYeah.nn337n00:26:45.186 –> 00:26:47.066nUh, the request of Firestone.nn338n00:26:47.066 –> 00:26:49.576nHe did do it when it came to the Firestone case, see.nn339n00:26:49.576 –> 00:26:52.046nAnd then, then out of that, Mrs.nn340n00:26:52.046 –> 00:27:02.126nFord said, “Frank, you, you, you must take this, uh, you must take this idea, uh, this, this, this, uh, work to, uh, Mackinac Island.” Sonn341n00:27:02.126 –> 00:27:07.226nwe went up, and we hired a, uh, island house, uh, for a dollar.nn342n00:27:07.226 –> 00:27:11.106nIt was owned by the state, and they, they got it for a dollar a year.nn343n00:27:11.106 –> 00:27:19.376nThey renovated, and we had summer conferences there for many, many years, nineteen forty-five until, I guess, sixty, early sixties.nn344n00:27:19.376 –> 00:27:23.816nUh, and, uh, that came out of the Akron meeting.nn345n00:27:23.816 –> 00:27:26.166nSo it was just a protesting type of thing.nn346n00:27:26.166 –> 00:27:31.786nSo Mackinac Island, uh, uh, links directly to Akron?nn347n00:27:31.786 –> 00:27:32.846nOh, sure.nn348n00:27:32.846 –> 00:27:33.576nOh, okay.nn349n00:27:33.576 –> 00:27:34.016nAbsolutely.nn350n00:27:34.016 –> 00:27:35.466nThat’s the first time I’ve heard that.nn351n00:27:35.466 –> 00:27:36.316nWell, oh, no.nn352n00:27:36.316 –> 00:27:37.535nUh, the, Mrs.nn353n00:27:37.535 –> 00:27:48.026nEdison, uh, there– and now, of course, let’s see, Henry Williams was a very active person on the, uh, in the Mac- in the, uh, Mackinac Island thing.nn354n00:27:48.026 –> 00:27:49.346nAh, I did not know that either.nn355n00:27:49.346 –> 00:27:50.506nOh, sure.nn356n00:27:50.506 –> 00:27:53.656nAnd, uh, all of the Akron crowd, he’d come to, to Mackinac.nn357n00:27:53.656 –> 00:28:02.506nWhat about Henrietta- It was about nineteen forty, forty, uh, two or three, I think it was, was when it started.nn358n00:28:02.506 –> 00:28:03.906nOkay.nn359n00:28:03.906 –> 00:28:05.406nWhat about, uh, Henrietta Seiberling?nn360n00:28:05.406 –> 00:28:06.246nDid you ever meet her?nn361n00:28:06.246 –> 00:28:07.226nHenrietta?nn362n00:28:07.226 –> 00:28:07.786nYeah.nn363n00:28:07.786 –> 00:28:07.856nYeah.nn364n00:28:07.856 –> 00:28:17.916nHenrietta, of course, she was a, she was a drinking, uh, she was a drinking girl of the, uh, of the Seiberling family, one of the sons and theirnn365n00:28:17.916 –> 00:28:18.366nwives.nn366n00:28:18.366 –> 00:28:19.446nShe had an apartment.nn367n00:28:19.446 –> 00:28:27.826nWhen she got saved, uh, her apartment became one of the, uh, one of the, uh, centers for the Oxford Group.nn368n00:28:27.826 –> 00:28:33.066nAnd, uh- That’s what I, that’s what I’m beginning to realize, that she really was a spark plug.nn369n00:28:33.066 –> 00:28:33.306nYeah.nn370n00:28:33.306 –> 00:28:41.706nWell, she claimed that the Oxfor– that the AA, uh, the AA movement started in her apartment, uh, when Dr.nn371n00:28:41.706 –> 00:28:52.025nBob and Bill got together there and, and had gotten plans to start the Oxford, uh, the Oxford Group, the move– I mean, the AA movement.nn372n00:28:52.025 –> 00:28:52.736nT.nn373n00:28:52.736 –> 00:28:56.986nHenry Williams always said…nn374n00:28:56.986 –> 00:29:05.546nUnfortunately, things have to have names, because as soon as you name something, it denotes membership.nn375n00:29:05.546 –> 00:29:09.726nUh, uh, then it, it denotes something.nn376n00:29:09.726 –> 00:29:12.366nOf course, the membership, you have to join something.nn377n00:29:12.366 –> 00:29:14.786nUh, this, this minimizes the number of people.nn378n00:29:14.786 –> 00:29:17.986nIt denotes a, a, a type of thinking.nn379n00:29:17.986 –> 00:29:21.606nUh, you, you galvanize the type of thinking i-i-in this.nn380n00:29:21.606 –> 00:29:25.046nAnd this limits the, the number of people.nn381n00:29:25.046 –> 00:29:35.133nSo, uh, the minute you name something, you immediately, uh, uh, minimize the, the, uh, the number of people who We’re going to benn382n00:29:35.134 –> 00:29:39.374nfollowers of that idea, and at that point, you have to name it for anything.nn383n00:29:39.374 –> 00:29:49.974nSee, the idea, uh, the Oxford Group has always been, and the AA movement should always be, that not to get people to join something, but to–butnn384n00:29:49.974 –> 00:29:54.074nan avenue by which you can get God in control of their lives.nn385n00:29:54.074 –> 00:29:54.284nYeah.nn386n00:29:54.284 –> 00:29:55.714nThat’s the thing we try to do.nn387n00:29:55.714 –> 00:30:01.254nThat, that’s exactly what it’s all about, to get God in control and get us out of the way.nn388n00:30:01.254 –> 00:30:02.834nThat’s exactly right.nn389n00:30:02.834 –> 00:30:07.034nAnd get yourself out of the picture and get God, God in, in, in control of your life.nn390n00:30:07.034 –> 00:30:09.353nSo let me just, uh, uh, summarize.nn391n00:30:09.353 –> 00:30:10.254nThe, uh- Yeah …nn392n00:30:10.254 –> 00:30:18.314nthe train, uh, incident in South Africa and, uh, Frank, uh, going through the forest in, uh- The Black Forest …nn393n00:30:18.314 –> 00:30:19.774nthe Black Forest, both of those were true stories.nn394n00:30:19.774 –> 00:30:20.514nOh, sure.nn395n00:30:20.514 –> 00:30:20.894nOkay.nn396n00:30:20.894 –> 00:30:22.474nJust wanted to make sure that that, uh…nn397n00:30:22.474 –> 00:30:30.454nSometimes we get, uh, a little bit of a myth, or sometimes it gets, uh, dressed up or maybe even becomes bigger than life over the years.nn398n00:30:30.454 –> 00:30:30.764nOh, no, no.nn399n00:30:30.764 –> 00:30:34.214nThat, uh, that, that’s very– All of that is documented.nn400n00:30:34.214 –> 00:30:35.314nOkay, great.nn401n00:30:35.314 –> 00:30:44.214nUnfortunately, things have to have names, because as soon as you name something, it denotes membership.nn402n00:30:44.214 –> 00:30:48.324nUh, uh, then it, it denotes something.nn403n00:30:48.324 –> 00:30:50.894nOf course, then in membership, you have to join something.nn404n00:30:50.894 –> 00:30:53.394nUh, th-this minimizes the number of people.nn405n00:30:53.394 –> 00:30:56.554nIt denotes a, a, a type of thinking.nn406n00:30:56.554 –> 00:31:00.194nUh, you, you galvanize a type of thinking i-i-in, in this.nn407n00:31:00.194 –> 00:31:03.634nAnd this limits the, the number of people.nn408n00:31:03.634 –> 00:31:13.734nSo, uh, the minute you name something, you immediately, uh, uh, minimize the, the, uh, the number of people who, who are going to benn409n00:31:13.734 –> 00:31:15.194nfollowers of that idea.nn410n00:31:15.194 –> 00:31:18.714nAnd at that point, you have to name it for anything.nn411n00:31:18.714 –> 00:31:28.734nSee, the idea, uh, the Oxford Group has always been, and the AA movement should always be, that not to get people to join something, but to–but annn412n00:31:28.734 –> 00:31:32.674navenue by which you can get God in control of their lives.nn413n00:31:32.674 –> 00:31:32.804nYeah.nn414n00:31:32.804 –> 00:31:34.413nThat’s the thing we try to do.nn415n00:31:34.413 –> 00:31:39.874nThat, that’s exactly what it’s all about, to get God in control and get us out of the way.nn416n00:31:39.874 –> 00:31:41.354nThat’s exactly right.nn417n00:31:41.354 –> 00:31:45.634nAnd get yourself out of the picture and get God, God in, in, in control of your life.nn418n00:31:45.634 –> 00:31:47.934nSo let me just, uh, uh, summarize.nn419n00:31:47.934 –> 00:31:48.834nThe, uh- Yeah …nn420n00:31:48.834 –> 00:31:56.804nthe train, uh, incident in South Africa and, uh, Frank, uh, going through the forest in, uh- The Black Forest …nn421n00:31:56.804 –> 00:31:58.314nthe Black Forest, both of those were true stories.nn422n00:31:58.314 –> 00:31:59.034nOh, sure.nn423n00:31:59.034 –> 00:31:59.414nOkay.nn424n00:31:59.414 –> 00:32:01.374nJust wanted to make sure that that, uh…nn425n00:32:01.374 –> 00:32:08.964nSometimes we get, uh, a little bit of a myth, or sometimes it gets, uh, dressed up or maybe even becomes bigger than life over the years.nn426n00:32:08.964 –> 00:32:09.283nOh, no, no.nn427n00:32:09.283 –> 00:32:12.734nThat, uh, that, that’s very– All of that is documented.nn428n00:32:12.734 –> 00:32:13.814nOkay, great.nn429n00:32:13.814 –> 00:32:20.214nLet me take you back, if I could, uh, to the meetings.nn430n00:32:20.214 –> 00:32:30.334nUh, one thing that, uh, in talking with, uh, Jack Ravenscroft, uh, here in Tucson a couple years ago, uh, a gentleman that, uh, you say that you’d had a chance to get to know overnn431n00:32:30.334 –> 00:32:32.874nthe years, who retired here.nn432n00:32:32.874 –> 00:32:39.094nUm, he mentioned that, um, the Oxford Group meetings, uh, were all non-smoking meetings.nn433n00:32:39.094 –> 00:32:44.374nUh, there was never any, uh, uh, smoking or refreshments during the, uh, the actual meeting.nn434n00:32:44.374 –> 00:32:45.424nOh, no.nn435n00:32:45.424 –> 00:32:48.274nWe, we, we, uh, his presence wasn’t what…nn436n00:32:48.274 –> 00:32:54.274nYou see, uh, smoking was one of the visible signs that there was something wrong in you, see?nn437n00:32:54.274 –> 00:32:58.244nSo, so smoking was, uh, there was very, uh…nn438n00:32:58.244 –> 00:33:03.354nI don’t know of any people in the Oxford Group that, I mean, who were in the g-group that smoked, you see?nn439n00:33:03.354 –> 00:33:07.694nUh, because if your life had changed, it, uh- That’s right.nn440n00:33:07.694 –> 00:33:08.854nThat’s exactly right.nn441n00:33:08.854 –> 00:33:19.054nAnd, and, and that’s what, uh, people can’t understand is, is why, uh, you see, uh, here people, uh, fought alcohol.nn442n00:33:19.054 –> 00:33:29.214nBut in, in our church, we had to have, we had to have one whole, uh, wing there repainted because of smoking, uh, AA peoplenn443n00:33:29.214 –> 00:33:29.674nsmoking.nn444n00:33:29.674 –> 00:33:31.054nThey were using the church, you know?nn445n00:33:31.054 –> 00:33:39.494nUh, a-and, uh, and, and, and they seemed to, to, to, uh, substitute coffee drinking for alcohol, see?nn446n00:33:39.494 –> 00:33:48.174nWell, let me, uh, again mention at least there’s hope- There was no coffee in the, in, uh, in Oxford Group meetings.nn447n00:33:48.174 –> 00:33:51.154nThere was no, there was not, there was no refreshments at all.nn448n00:33:51.154 –> 00:33:54.674nIt was all spiritual food that people- All spiritual food.nn449n00:33:54.674 –> 00:33:54.914nYeah.nn450n00:33:54.914 –> 00:34:05.024nAnd when Bill Wilson come to our meetings in Frederick, uh, he, he would, uh, he would, uh, first thing he’d always ask was, “Are you gonna have any drunks here tonight?” And I’d say, “Well, I don’t know, Bill.nn451n00:34:05.024 –> 00:34:08.794nIt’s gonna have– If the, the people, maybe some of these people are drinking.nn452n00:34:08.794 –> 00:34:18.794nI don’t, I don’t know, Bill.” He said, “Well, I, if you, if you have anybody, I don’t want to talk to them if you have any, any, any problem.” He was just obsessed with giving what he’d found tonn453n00:34:18.794 –> 00:34:21.954nevery person that had an alcohol problem that he met.nn454n00:34:21.954 –> 00:34:23.904nAny drunks coming to the meeting, huh?nn455n00:34:23.904 –> 00:34:24.354nOh, yeah.nn456n00:34:24.354 –> 00:34:25.684nHe was just, uh…nn457n00:34:25.684 –> 00:34:29.694nAnd, and he carried this idea with him all the time when he was with Sam Shoemaker.nn458n00:34:29.694 –> 00:34:39.714nUh, and he got, uh, so he got to the point in the Gramercy, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, church up there, at, at Sam’s church,nn459n00:34:39.714 –> 00:34:49.854nuh, that he, uh, that, uh, that Bill got, uh, he got criticized because he wanted to hold meetings up there just, just for, for people with alcohol problems.nn460n00:34:49.854 –> 00:34:50.394nYes.nn461n00:34:50.394 –> 00:34:54.364nUh, and, uh, so, uh, they said, “No, we don’t want-“nn462n00:34:54.585 –> 00:34:59.405nI said, uh, we don’t, uh, uh, we don’t want to take that approach.nn463n00:34:59.405 –> 00:35:09.525nHe said, “We wanna, uh,” said, “Our, our problem is, I mean, our concept here is for a change in the whole present.” And, uh- And not just dealingnn464n00:35:09.525 –> 00:35:11.065nwith one small aspect of it.nn465n00:35:11.065 –> 00:35:19.505nDealing with alcohol, because, well, you can see when you deal with, from a practical standpoint, uh, you, you, you limit your…nn466n00:35:19.505 –> 00:35:22.585nThere are many people drinking that don’t consider it a problem, see?nn467n00:35:22.585 –> 00:35:26.965nUh, and so therefore, they aren’t interested in alcohol, see?nn468n00:35:26.965 –> 00:35:38.385nAnd it’s also, uh, one other thing that I found is that you’re not dealing if when, uh, uh, that, uh, often,nn469n00:35:38.385 –> 00:35:48.465nif you don’t deal with the other issues in a person’s life, uh, alcohol is, is, is usually the, the thing that, that takesnn470n00:35:48.465 –> 00:35:49.945nthem away from those problems.nn471n00:35:49.945 –> 00:35:58.845nIt’s, uh, uh, it’s, um, it’s a sort of a seclusion they, they go into or a release, uh, from that particular problem.nn472n00:35:58.845 –> 00:36:03.365nSo if you deal with those problems, then you don’t need the alcohol to take you away from them, see?nn473n00:36:03.365 –> 00:36:04.675nYeah, you don’t need the- And you get…nn474n00:36:04.675 –> 00:36:06.745nAnd it’s a reverse process, in a sense.nn475n00:36:06.745 –> 00:36:09.815nDeal with the problem, and then you don’t need to- Yeah …nn476n00:36:09.815 –> 00:36:12.545nuh, live with any false solutions.nn477n00:36:12.545 –> 00:36:13.185nSure.nn478n00:36:13.185 –> 00:36:17.525nWhich, uh, alcohol and drugs are all just false, uh, false solutions.nn479n00:36:17.525 –> 00:36:26.445nThe other thing that Jack mentioned, and, uh, you touched about it earlier, uh, when we first got together on the phone, was about how people dressed when they went to the Oxford Group meetings.nn480n00:36:26.445 –> 00:36:36.605nThat, uh, uh, people wanted to demonstrate that, uh, yes, their lives had changed, and that this was a, uh, a, a special event in their lives to go to an Oxford Group meeting.nn481n00:36:36.605 –> 00:36:42.285nAnd they, uh, and you said, I believe, that everybody wore a coat and tie, and the women did dress.nn482n00:36:42.285 –> 00:36:46.435nNow, did he say it was, uh, evidence of their change?nn483n00:36:46.435 –> 00:36:49.545nWell, he said it was just one way that they demonstrated that their lives had changed.nn484n00:36:49.545 –> 00:36:49.575nI see.nn485n00:36:49.575 –> 00:36:50.285nWell, that’s interesting.nn486n00:36:50.285 –> 00:36:53.235nI never, uh, I, I could, I could agree with that.nn487n00:36:53.235 –> 00:36:55.305nBut I mean, I never, never- Oh, okay …nn488n00:36:55.305 –> 00:36:56.035nthought about it.nn489n00:36:56.035 –> 00:37:04.165nBut I was always conscious that, I don’t know, uh, uh, Oxford Group, uh, you put your, you put your best face forward.nn490n00:37:04.165 –> 00:37:05.285nBest face forward.nn491n00:37:05.285 –> 00:37:05.645nYeah.nn492n00:37:05.645 –> 00:37:06.025nYeah.nn493n00:37:06.025 –> 00:37:12.065nAnd, and there was, there was no refreshments or no coffee or anything, uh, li- like that.nn494n00:37:12.065 –> 00:37:18.545nThen, Wally, after these people spoke, then the meeting, then, then the meeting would just begin, see.nn495n00:37:18.545 –> 00:37:23.245nThat was just preliminary.nn496n00:37:23.245 –> 00:37:23.944nThe meeting- Okay …nn497n00:37:23.944 –> 00:37:31.064nthe meeting would, would begin when, when th- they would, you’d, you, you would, uh, start talking with people around the room.nn498n00:37:31.064 –> 00:37:40.905nAnd, and you’d soon, soon see people cut off, and they’d go and talk about the, uh, these would be people, uh, talking in deeper sense about their own life.nn499n00:37:40.905 –> 00:37:50.965nAnd, and then, uh, these people were, uh, taken through, uh, you’d take them through a series of steps in order to get them changed.nn500n00:37:50.965 –> 00:37:53.285nIn other words, we had what you call the five C’s.nn501n00:37:53.285 –> 00:37:55.005nYou’re familiar with those.nn502n00:37:55.005 –> 00:37:55.785nYes, I am.nn503n00:37:55.785 –> 00:38:00.725nUh, and then, uh, we were taught how to, how to do a life-changing process.nn504n00:38:00.725 –> 00:38:09.615nAnd so then, uh- When you say you were taught, were you taught, uh, just by the experience of attending the meetings, or was it a formalized- No, no, no.nn505n00:38:09.615 –> 00:38:18.605nActually, we would have a, you know, we’d have, there were a time, we would, we’d have a classroom run, uh, we’d have a classroom session on the five C’s.nn506n00:38:18.605 –> 00:38:19.685nOh.nn507n00:38:19.685 –> 00:38:29.845nUh, and, uh, and, uh, to how, uh, how these five C’s, uh, would, uh, would relate to, uh, hownn508n00:38:29.845 –> 00:38:39.105nwe could, uh, how we could bring our experience, translate our experience into another person’s life where it’d result in their change too, you see?nn509n00:38:39.105 –> 00:38:45.765nThat’s what I’m talking about, is how you multiply, uh, another person’s life.nn510n00:38:45.765 –> 00:38:49.685nI mean, uh, your change into the life of another person.nn511n00:38:49.685 –> 00:38:59.905nNow, uh, now, people, uh, innocently, and judges who never get beyond experience, maybe, uh, c- can be contentnn512n00:38:59.905 –> 00:39:03.225nwith it because they don’t know, uh, they don’t know how to do this, you see.nn513n00:39:03.225 –> 00:39:05.225nAnd when- And in AA, they don’t know how to do it either.nn514n00:39:05.225 –> 00:39:10.325nThis was, this was, we were taught this in the Oxford Group, uh, and how to, how to bring this about.nn515n00:39:10.325 –> 00:39:16.325nNow, these classroom sessions, were they part of the meeting or after the meeting or separate from the meeting?nn516n00:39:16.325 –> 00:39:18.415nOh, no, no.nn517n00:39:18.415 –> 00:39:20.065nThese, these, these were, uh, these weren’t all that prevalent.nn518n00:39:20.065 –> 00:39:24.805nBut e- every now and then in a, in a team meeting where you’d have a, strictly a team meeting.nn519n00:39:24.805 –> 00:39:25.405nOkay.nn520n00:39:25.405 –> 00:39:26.905nWhere you wouldn’t necessarily have any…nn521n00:39:26.905 –> 00:39:36.985nYou, you would, you would talk about these, these elements of life changing, where people would have a chance to, to, to tell of their, of their, maybe theirnn522n00:39:36.985 –> 00:39:47.185nexperience with bringing, uh, bringing a person to Christ and, and how, a- a- or, or how, uh, uh, or difficultiesnn523n00:39:47.185 –> 00:39:47.975nthey might be having.nn524n00:39:47.975 –> 00:39:58.285nAnd it was a matter of how you could, how you could hone, hone your, your, your team’s experience to the point where you would make the, uh, maximum, uh,nn525n00:39:58.285 –> 00:39:58.785nuh, effort.nn526n00:39:58.785 –> 00:40:04.085nYou see, the, the Oxford Group was basically, uh, an evangelistic movement.nn527n00:40:04.085 –> 00:40:06.425nOh, yes.nn528n00:40:06.425 –> 00:40:12.765nUh- W- without all of the, all of the ecclesiastical, uh, trimmings and everything.nn529n00:40:12.765 –> 00:40:18.125nIt was very, in a very practical sense, very similar to the How Do I Begin pamphlet, see?nn530n00:40:18.125 –> 00:40:18.215nYes.nn531n00:40:18.215 –> 00:40:19.045nHow direct that is.nn532n00:40:19.045 –> 00:40:19.715nOh, very similar.nn533n00:40:19.715 –> 00:40:20.565nHow simple that is.nn534n00:40:20.565 –> 00:40:20.835nYep.nn535n00:40:20.835 –> 00:40:30.005nAnd that’s the way the Oxford Group was leading people, uh, to Christ in a, in a, in a, in a very, uh, sane and practical way.nn536n00:40:30.005 –> 00:40:35.575nWithout all the, uh, dogma and the ritual and the- That’s right.nn537n00:40:35.575 –> 00:40:38.005nThat drives people away, uh, o- often.nn538n00:40:38.005 –> 00:40:46.405nOh, what about, uh, the other thing that, uh, uh, Jack mentioned, was the, uh, um, the moment of silence.nn539n00:40:46.405 –> 00:40:47.425nUh, that the- What?nn540n00:40:47.425 –> 00:40:48.405nThe moment of silence.nn541n00:40:48.405 –> 00:40:54.745nThat the meetings that he remembered, uh, back in the ’30s were, uh, that they actually opened with, with silence.nn542n00:40:54.745 –> 00:41:04.157nUh- And, uh, that there was, that the moment of silence would sometimes be as long as five minutes so that people could get in touch with God or in tune with God.nn543n00:41:04.157 –> 00:41:09.767nYeah, I would, uh, I, I can’t remember that as being, uh, as being the format of every meeting.nn544n00:41:09.767 –> 00:41:15.497nBut, uh, yes, I can r- remember some meetings were, were, were, were like that.nn545n00:41:15.497 –> 00:41:20.787nUh, but that was, uh, uh, that sort of- Uh- …nn546n00:41:20.787 –> 00:41:23.757nwith the leadership and the locale- Okay …nn547n00:41:23.757 –> 00:41:24.677nand that sort of thing.nn548n00:41:24.677 –> 00:41:28.997nDo you think maybe the moment of silence was more prevalent in the Midwest than on the East Coast?nn549n00:41:28.997 –> 00:41:31.017nUh, could be.nn550n00:41:31.017 –> 00:41:31.327nCould be.nn551n00:41:31.327 –> 00:41:32.296nUm- Could be.nn552n00:41:32.296 –> 00:41:37.517nWell, ’cause it, the moment of silence wasn’t all that prevalent in, in, in my experience.nn553n00:41:37.517 –> 00:41:37.997nOkay.nn554n00:41:37.997 –> 00:41:38.677nYeah.nn555n00:41:38.677 –> 00:41:39.357nOkay.nn556n00:41:39.357 –> 00:41:49.656nBecause I know that, uh, uh, Jack attended quite a few meetings in the Akron and, uh, and Cleveland areas, uh, as well as back on the East Coast, andnn557n00:41:49.657 –> 00:41:51.837nhe may have been drawing upon that experience, too.nn558n00:41:51.837 –> 00:41:58.217nUm, what about the, uh, meetings that Bill Wilson attended?nn559n00:41:58.217 –> 00:42:00.237nYou said that you had a chance to meet Bill.nn560n00:42:00.237 –> 00:42:10.237nWell, see, the way, the way this happened was that, uh, uh, we in Frederick, uh, we had a, we had a team at that time around 35nn561n00:42:10.237 –> 00:42:13.297nor 40 people, I guess, uh, that, who would vary.nn562n00:42:13.297 –> 00:42:13.447nYeah.nn563n00:42:13.447 –> 00:42:14.717nAnd people move in, move out.nn564n00:42:14.717 –> 00:42:18.417nBut ju- usually we would have that many at a meeting.nn565n00:42:18.417 –> 00:42:28.157nAnd, uh, uh, we began to have meetings in the old Francis Scott Key Hotel in Frederick.nn566n00:42:28.157 –> 00:42:28.957nIt was the- Okay …nn567n00:42:28.957 –> 00:42:37.317nit had a room down in the basement called the Blue and Gray Room, and that was a very, uh, that was a very popular meeting room.nn568n00:42:37.317 –> 00:42:41.397nAnd we used to have these meetings on Saturday night at that time.nn569n00:42:41.397 –> 00:42:51.457nBill Wilson was a stockbroker in New York, and after, I guess, a week on, on, on Wall Street, he was, uh, uh, he was pretty well tired out.nn570n00:42:51.457 –> 00:42:58.577nHe, oh, had a habit of coming down to visit friends in, in Lees- around Leesburg, Virginia.nn571n00:42:58.577 –> 00:43:00.597nAnd this is horse country.nn572n00:43:00.597 –> 00:43:03.197nYou have these big, uh, country estates.nn573n00:43:03.197 –> 00:43:07.957nAnd Bill would come down there for the weekend just to relax and be with friends.nn574n00:43:07.957 –> 00:43:15.917nAnd, uh, uh, he heard about these meetings over in Frederick, and this is about a 15-mile trip.nn575n00:43:15.917 –> 00:43:16.497nOkay.nn576n00:43:16.497 –> 00:43:20.057nAnd he would come over on Saturday nights to, uh…nn577n00:43:20.057 –> 00:43:25.017nAnd he always, he’d come in, he’d introduce himself, and, uh, I remember when that start.nn578n00:43:25.017 –> 00:43:35.417nAnd, uh, but regardless of when he came, he would always ask the same question: “Are we gonna have any drunkards tonight?” And,nn579n00:43:35.417 –> 00:43:40.997nuh, then, uh, uh, Bill spoke on several occasions, I remember.nn580n00:43:40.997 –> 00:43:47.597nAnd, uh, this went on for, I guess, a couple years.nn581n00:43:47.597 –> 00:43:55.017nAnd then, uh, uh, and then, uh, uh, I didn’t see Bill after that.nn582n00:43:55.017 –> 00:44:04.237nHe, he centered in New York with, uh, Sam Shoemaker and, and, uh, Sherry Day and all the fellows up there in New York.nn583n00:44:04.237 –> 00:44:12.357nAnd, uh, uh, and, uh, I moved to Baltimore, and I didn’t see Bill after that then.nn584n00:44:12.357 –> 00:44:16.817nWhat did Bill strike you as, uh, in terms of being able to speak?nn585n00:44:16.817 –> 00:44:19.297nUh, did you remember him talking about alcohol?nn586n00:44:19.297 –> 00:44:21.377nHe, he always talked about alcohol.nn587n00:44:21.377 –> 00:44:21.567nSure.nn588n00:44:21.567 –> 00:44:22.717nHe never talked about anything but alcohol.nn589n00:44:22.717 –> 00:44:23.417nOkay.nn590n00:44:23.417 –> 00:44:24.917nThat knows right.nn591n00:44:24.917 –> 00:44:35.057nUm- See, but it was, but, uh, uh, but when, uh, well, when God touched his life on alcohol, it also touches on smoking, gambling,nn592n00:44:35.057 –> 00:44:38.657nthe wrong relationship with women, and Bill had a lot of those.nn593n00:44:38.657 –> 00:44:42.017nUh, uh, he, he touched the whole person, you see.nn594n00:44:42.017 –> 00:44:52.147nBut, but Bill, Bill was so impressed how God had come into his life when he could, when he was desperate and,nn595n00:44:52.147 –> 00:44:53.537nand took alcohol out of his life.nn596n00:44:53.537 –> 00:45:03.217nHe was so impressed with this, that this was the biggest thing that he could, that he could think of in, in, in a way to witness to God’s power in his life.nn597n00:45:03.217 –> 00:45:06.077nSo he, he talked mostly about alcohol.nn598n00:45:06.077 –> 00:45:07.737nWow.nn599n00:45:07.737 –> 00:45:09.137nThat is interesting.nn600n00:45:09.137 –> 00:45:09.317nYeah.nn601n00:45:09.317 –> 00:45:13.777nUh, because later on he did still have some difficulties in other areas.nn602n00:45:13.777 –> 00:45:14.517nIn fact- Sure …nn603n00:45:14.517 –> 00:45:16.157nin fact, he actually died of emphysema.nn604n00:45:16.157 –> 00:45:16.697nYeah.nn605n00:45:16.697 –> 00:45:21.797nHe fought the, uh, cigarette, uh, the, uh, problem, uh, off and on all his life.nn606n00:45:21.797 –> 00:45:21.997nYeah.nn607n00:45:21.997 –> 00:45:27.197nNever really did, uh, uh, wrestle that one to, uh, to the ground.nn608n00:45:27.197 –> 00:45:33.337nAnd, um, of course, he did have some, uh, some women problems further on, too, so.nn609n00:45:33.337 –> 00:45:33.997nSure.nn610n00:45:33.997 –> 00:45:44.117nUm- Well, you see, the, the, I think, uh, I think this, this, uh- By concentrating on the alcohol, maybe he’d, he’d lostnn611n00:45:44.117 –> 00:45:46.497nsight that, uh, his entire life had changed.nn612n00:45:46.497 –> 00:45:48.417nWell- Not just in one area …nn613n00:45:48.417 –> 00:45:55.147nit’s, it’s that when, uh, you, you de-emphasize the other issues when you emphasize just one issue in your life, see.nn614n00:45:55.147 –> 00:45:56.077nI’m listening.nn615n00:45:56.077 –> 00:45:57.357nI’m hearing what you’re saying.nn616n00:45:57.357 –> 00:46:00.697nYou don’t guard against those, and the first thing you know, you slip overboard.nn617n00:46:00.697 –> 00:46:01.617nYep.nn618n00:46:01.617 –> 00:46:06.897nBecause Bill also had a, a great deal of depression in his life, too, as a result of that.nn619n00:46:06.897 –> 00:46:06.947nYeah.nn620n00:46:06.947 –> 00:46:07.177nHe never…nn621n00:46:07.177 –> 00:46:12.636nHe always seemed to be, uh, doubting, uh, that he truly had been changed.nn622n00:46:12.636 –> 00:46:19.877nAnd, uh, I think maybe that, uh, he kept looking for another experience like the one he had in Towns Hospital.nn623n00:46:19.877 –> 00:46:22.467nI think everyone tries that.nn624n00:46:22.467 –> 00:46:23.597nRight.nn625n00:46:23.597 –> 00:46:24.257nI’ve tried.nn626n00:46:24.257 –> 00:46:27.837nYeah, I’ve tried to go back and recapture my feelings at that original.nn627n00:46:27.837 –> 00:46:32.397nYou know, go back on retreats and try to rededicate your life again.nn628n00:46:32.397 –> 00:46:38.157nAnd, and it, uh, never, uh, never is like that- That first time …nn629n00:46:38.157 –> 00:46:39.357nthat original conversion.nn630n00:46:39.357 –> 00:46:39.636nNo.nn631n00:46:39.636 –> 00:46:42.637nIt’s, uh, that’s, uh, that’s a once in a lifetime experience.nn632n00:46:42.637 –> 00:46:43.477nThat sure is.nn633n00:46:43.477 –> 00:46:53.497nUh, I remember when, when that night in the YWCA building, uh, that I was telling you about, five people got changed, uh, th-nn634n00:46:53.497 –> 00:46:55.677nthat night at that, that, uh, meeting.nn635n00:46:55.677 –> 00:47:02.037nAnd they, they went out and they really, uh, really, uh, uh, upset the town.nn636n00:47:02.037 –> 00:47:12.127nGuys, myself and another fella were in the same church, and there was an old fella who used tonn637n00:47:12.127 –> 00:47:19.867nrun the Tuesday night prayer meetings by the name of Brother Giesing, and he was, he was a great fundamental Christian.nn638n00:47:19.867 –> 00:47:30.227nUh, we went to him and, uh, we thought we, he’d be delighted to, to know that two of his young, young people in church had got converted.nn639n00:47:30.227 –> 00:47:40.187nSo we went in to him, uh, the next morning, Sunday morning after that and said, “Brother Giesing, we want to tell you that, uh, we gave our lives to God last night.nn640n00:47:40.187 –> 00:47:50.447nWe, uh, we, we were converted.” And he said, “Did you see a shining light come down from heaven and sort of blinded you?” And I, we said, “No, we didn’t see that.”nn641n00:47:50.447 –> 00:47:59.427nHe said, “I don’t know, fellas.” He said, “I don’t think you got it.” So you could only get converted one way, the way he got converted, you see?nn642n00:47:59.427 –> 00:48:01.707nAnd that wa- that was it as to him.nn643n00:48:01.707 –> 00:48:06.147nYou had to see that light or you didn’t, or you, or you, or you didn’t make it.nn644n00:48:06.147 –> 00:48:09.987nAnd, uh, I’m so glad that we don’t all have to see the same light.nn645n00:48:09.987 –> 00:48:10.177nRight.nn646n00:48:10.177 –> 00:48:16.667nGetting back to the meetings, uh, in, um, uh, Frederick, uh, Maryland.nn647n00:48:16.667 –> 00:48:16.907nYeah.nn648n00:48:16.907 –> 00:48:21.067nUh, when you talked about Bill coming down for the weekend, uh- Yeah …nn649n00:48:21.067 –> 00:48:24.567nhe probably was traveling with a gentleman by the name of Fitz Mayo.nn650n00:48:24.567 –> 00:48:26.337nDid you ever meet Fitz Mayo?nn651n00:48:26.337 –> 00:48:27.747nOh, yeah, I met Fitz Mayo.nn652n00:48:27.747 –> 00:48:27.917nIt was very similar.nn653n00:48:27.917 –> 00:48:29.707nI don’t remember Fitz Mayo.nn654n00:48:29.707 –> 00:48:35.317nUh, uh, he may have, uh, come to one of those meetings in Frederick, but I don’t remember.nn655n00:48:35.317 –> 00:48:36.447nYeah, I remember Fitz.nn656n00:48:36.447 –> 00:48:36.637nYeah.nn657n00:48:36.637 –> 00:48:44.517nFitz, uh, lived in that area, and, uh, Fitz, uh, uh, got sober in ’30…nn658n00:48:44.517 –> 00:48:47.987nHe was, yeah, I think he was AA number three.nn659n00:48:47.987 –> 00:48:50.347nIn fact, he was AA number three in New York.nn660n00:48:50.347 –> 00:48:57.087nBut he also, uh, had a place outside of Washington, DC and, uh, and Bill would come down there for the weekends.nn661n00:48:57.087 –> 00:48:58.247nYeah.nn662n00:48:58.247 –> 00:49:01.707nUh, uh- So that’s probably the linkage of how Bill got to those meetings.nn663n00:49:01.707 –> 00:49:04.227nUh- Fitz Mayo used to go to the Washington meeting.nn664n00:49:04.227 –> 00:49:06.837nHe never, to my knowledge, he never came to Frederick meetings.nn665n00:49:06.837 –> 00:49:07.427nOh, okay.nn666n00:49:07.427 –> 00:49:10.727nW- okay, uh, because he lived closer, probably closer to Washington.nn667n00:49:10.727 –> 00:49:10.757nYeah.nn668n00:49:10.757 –> 00:49:12.357nThey had a large team in Washington.nn669n00:49:12.357 –> 00:49:17.447nThey had a team, they had a team of 100 or 150 people that were in Washington.nn670n00:49:17.447 –> 00:49:24.226nThat’s, uh, we, so we used to go down there quite often on weekends when they’d have a meeting.nn671n00:49:24.226 –> 00:49:28.227nAnd, uh- Oh, that would make for quite a meeting, 100, 150 people.nn672n00:49:28.227 –> 00:49:29.066nOh, yeah.nn673n00:49:29.066 –> 00:49:37.187nWell, the, the, the meeting, the first meeting I went to here in Baltimore, they had 500 in the lo- Lord Baltimore Hotel.nn674n00:49:37.187 –> 00:49:42.307nAnd, and, and after I came here, I, uh, got involved in the Oxford Group.nn675n00:49:42.307 –> 00:49:46.087nI still can’t see how they got 500 people together when they did.nn676n00:49:46.087 –> 00:49:56.087nEver get a chance to go, like, to that, uh, uh, meeting in, uh, the Berkshire Mountains, I think that was in ’37, where there were 10,000nn677n00:49:56.087 –> 00:49:56.407npeople?nn678n00:49:56.407 –> 00:50:04.207nOr, uh, I heard tell of the one in, uh, Los Angeles where they packed the Hollywood Bowl and- Oh, yeah, that was, I was there.nn679n00:50:04.207 –> 00:50:05.387nThat was 30,000.nn680n00:50:05.387 –> 00:50:06.787nYou were there at the Hollywood Bowl one?nn681n00:50:06.787 –> 00:50:07.407nOh, sure.nn682n00:50:07.407 –> 00:50:08.267nI was…nn683n00:50:08.267 –> 00:50:15.967nWhen they introduced the R- Mari- uh, uh, Mallory, uh, they had a Madison Square meeting that was 5,000, as I remember.nn684n00:50:15.967 –> 00:50:17.467nNo, wait a minute, it was more than that.nn685n00:50:17.467 –> 00:50:18.287n10,000, I guess.nn686n00:50:18.287 –> 00:50:21.917nThe next one we moved to Constitution Hall.nn687n00:50:21.917 –> 00:50:24.887nThat only seats f- 5,000 and that was packed.nn688n00:50:24.887 –> 00:50:30.007nAnd then we went from there right to, to California where we had it in the Hollywood Bowl.nn689n00:50:30.007 –> 00:50:34.427nUh, people were turned away and the ca- capacity of the bowl was 30,000.nn690n00:50:34.427 –> 00:50:35.607nThat’s what I heard.nn691n00:50:35.607 –> 00:50:38.067nI heard as many as 10,000 people were turned away.nn692n00:50:38.067 –> 00:50:39.847nUh- Yeah, because it could be.nn693n00:50:39.847 –> 00:50:39.876nIt could be.nn694n00:50:39.876 –> 00:50:43.727nThat’s, there was definitely an overflow crowd that they could only seat.nn695n00:50:43.727 –> 00:50:48.036nThey had all the, um, all the celebrities there, you know, the, the movie celebrities.nn696n00:50:48.036 –> 00:50:49.126nIt was a big night.nn697n00:50:49.126 –> 00:50:53.067nSpotlights, uh, flashing in on all this sort of thing.nn698n00:50:53.067 –> 00:50:56.707nAnd we had, uh, I remember, uh, two…nn699n00:50:56.707 –> 00:51:06.767nThey had four spotlights right back of the podium shooting straight up in the air, and these were so powerful they, all they had was a white beam,nn700n00:51:06.767 –> 00:51:08.536nand they represented the four standards.nn701n00:51:08.536 –> 00:51:11.187nOh, okay.nn702n00:51:11.187 –> 00:51:21.067nAnd, and, uh, yeah, it was, that’s, it was a quite a, a, a, a dramatic meeting, uh, as far as, uh, staging is concerned.nn703n00:51:21.067 –> 00:51:29.907nThey had all of the, they had all of the, uh, all of the know-how of Hollywood available, you see, and they a- they, uh, really made it beautiful.nn704n00:51:29.907 –> 00:51:31.467nI can imagine it, too.nn705n00:51:31.467 –> 00:51:32.907nYeah.nn706n00:51:32.907 –> 00:51:35.287nOh, I can imagine that was quite an event.nn707n00:51:35.287 –> 00:51:40.667nUh, just seeing the pictures of the bowl filled and, and just read the, uh, the reports.nn708n00:51:40.667 –> 00:51:44.807nUh, uh, but, uh, been something to have actually have been there.nn709n00:51:44.807 –> 00:51:49.727nYeah, I, I had the privilege of being to all three of those meetings, you see.nn710n00:51:49.727 –> 00:51:50.307nGreat.nn711n00:51:50.307 –> 00:51:51.547nConstitution Hall.nn712n00:51:51.547 –> 00:51:55.007nOh, uh, the first one there was, um- Madison Square.nn713n00:51:55.007 –> 00:51:57.147nMadison Square Garden is the first one.nn714n00:51:57.147 –> 00:52:02.747nAnd, uh, then the, then the Constitution Hall and then Hollywood Bowl.nn715n00:52:02.747 –> 00:52:05.507nLet’s see, that all would’ve been ’39, if I remember right.nn716n00:52:05.507 –> 00:52:06.767nYeah, 1939.nn717n00:52:06.767 –> 00:52:13.027nIf the first meeting was 1938 in, uh, London, England, East London.nn718n00:52:13.027 –> 00:52:15.067nThat’s where Mallory and Harwood was run.nn719n00:52:15.067 –> 00:52:16.447nOh, okay.nn720n00:52:16.447 –> 00:52:19.467nI didn’t realize that, that it actually had kicked off in England first.nn721n00:52:19.467 –> 00:52:20.567nAt East Ham.nn722n00:52:20.567 –> 00:52:21.657nIs that, and that’s after-nn723n00:52:22.048 –> 00:52:24.918nUh, Frank had, uh, been, uh, through the Black Forest then.nn724n00:52:24.918 –> 00:52:26.627nI guess he- Oh, sure.nn725n00:52:26.627 –> 00:52:26.678nSure …nn726n00:52:26.678 –> 00:52:36.868nand he, he decided to, uh, get right on it and- Well, they, uh, yeah, they, uh, uh, this, it, uh, it moves fast.nn727n00:52:36.868 –> 00:52:44.948nUh, of course, Frank wasn’t, uh, successful in his, uh, uh, contacts with Hitler.nn728n00:52:44.948 –> 00:52:56.308nI know that there turned out to be quite a flap about it, too, that, uh, there was- Well, some, some of his, uh, uh, there was, there was, there was, uh, uh,nn729n00:52:56.308 –> 00:53:01.588nthere was, there was a great deal of headway ma- uh, made with some of his lieutenants.nn730n00:53:01.588 –> 00:53:04.018nI heard Himmler was, was listening.nn731n00:53:04.018 –> 00:53:13.288nUh, uh, yes, there was some talk, but there were some younger lieutenants that was quite, that was quite taken by the idea and everything and…nn732n00:53:13.288 –> 00:53:16.827nBut, you know, Hit- Hitler was a dictator and- Oh, boy.nn733n00:53:16.827 –> 00:53:17.068nYeah …nn734n00:53:17.068 –> 00:53:18.448nwhatever he said went, you know.nn735n00:53:18.448 –> 00:53:26.238nSo, so when he said, uh, uh, when he said to throw it out the window, you see, well, it was thrown out the window.nn736n00:53:26.238 –> 00:53:36.548nBut, but yet it was the basis, those seeds that were sown there were, were the basis of reconciliation between France and Germanynn737n00:53:36.548 –> 00:53:46.688nwhen Madame Laura, uh, de Cove, uh, de Cove Switzler apologized to the Germans for her deep hatred, and that brought a whole, that’s a wholenn738n00:53:46.688 –> 00:53:47.588nnother story.nn739n00:53:47.588 –> 00:53:48.668nYeah, after the war.nn740n00:53:48.668 –> 00:53:59.048nBut the fact is what, uh, both Hitler, uh, both, uh, uh, both Schumann and Adenauer said that no, uh, uh, Madame Laura, more than any one person,nn741n00:53:59.048 –> 00:54:09.048ncontributed to, uh, the, uh, uh, the, uh, the basic, uh, reconciliation between France and Germany more than any other onenn742n00:54:09.048 –> 00:54:09.528nperson.nn743n00:54:09.528 –> 00:54:16.528nAnd that reconciliation is bound in trees and still exists today, and will exist.nn744n00:54:16.528 –> 00:54:22.808nOh, and that was one of the, the, the where it did work, one area where it did work.nn745n00:54:22.808 –> 00:54:23.508nThat’s right.nn746n00:54:23.508 –> 00:54:24.948nOh.nn747n00:54:24.948 –> 00:54:35.108nAnd, well, there are many areas that it worked in, in- But that’s one that I’ve read about also that, uh, was really one of the, the, the highlights that, uh, even thoughnn748n00:54:35.108 –> 00:54:37.568nwe plant the seed, we never know where the tree’s gonna grow.nn749n00:54:37.568 –> 00:54:38.318nAnd, uh- That’s it …nn750n00:54:38.318 –> 00:54:40.168nand it grew a few years later.nn751n00:54:40.168 –> 00:54:42.008nThis is right.nn752n00:54:42.008 –> 00:54:52.048nAnd, uh, I think, sir, that’s what I’m, uh, I’m thanking some of the, of the seeds which Hitler sowed in 19, uh, through ’37,nn753n00:54:52.048 –> 00:54:55.068n’38 in Germany with Hitler’s crowd.nn754n00:54:55.068 –> 00:54:55.798nYeah.nn755n00:54:55.798 –> 00:55:05.868nUh, some of those people were the ones who came, uh, ’cause, see, there were 200, uh, selected people that General Clay allowed to come, the first people that he allowed tonn756n00:55:05.868 –> 00:55:10.968ncome out of Germany, and they came to Caux, Switzerland for this conference.nn757n00:55:10.968 –> 00:55:15.508nAnd these were 200 of, uh, of what we consider some of the top people there.nn758n00:55:15.508 –> 00:55:19.408nSo they had to be cleansed of, of Hitler’s, uh, Hitler’s people.nn759n00:55:19.408 –> 00:55:22.968nAnd, uh- Who had been exposed previously.nn760n00:55:22.968 –> 00:55:23.188nYeah.nn761n00:55:23.188 –> 00:55:26.928nAnd of course then they were receptive to Madame Laura’s politic.nn762n00:55:26.928 –> 00:55:35.088nAnd then she went with them back to Germany and spoke hundreds of times in meetings and radio.nn763n00:55:35.088 –> 00:55:37.908nThere wasn’t TV then, of course.nn764n00:55:37.908 –> 00:55:48.008nUh, and, and, uh, the message was always the same, you know, reconciliation and, and her, uh, change that, that brought, uh, that happened in her life.nn765n00:55:48.008 –> 00:55:58.057nUh, and, uh, and this, this, this is the, this is, this was the, the foundation fornn766n00:55:58.057 –> 00:56:05.198nthe fast reconciliation that, uh, occurred between those two nations.nn767n00:56:05.198 –> 00:56:05.448nYeah.nn768n00:56:05.448 –> 00:56:08.328nSo a fascinating piece of our history.nn769n00:56:08.328 –> 00:56:10.148nWe actually can see it working.nn770n00:56:10.148 –> 00:56:18.648nSo, well, you can see what Bookman said, was the concept of the ultimate of Bookman thinking of new men, new nations, you see.nn771n00:56:18.648 –> 00:56:28.268nAt least, uh, he was always thinking in terms of how people change could result in some national change or some change in a situation.nn772n00:56:28.268 –> 00:56:29.768nAnd- Yes.nn773n00:56:29.768 –> 00:56:33.708nUh, one liner that I remember, um, I’m not sure if this is accurate.nn774n00:56:33.708 –> 00:56:42.408nThis, I wanna check this with you, is that, uh, uh, one thing he used to say was, uh, his objective was to change the world one life at a time.nn775n00:56:42.408 –> 00:56:52.478nDoes that ring true or is that- Well, uh- Or did he really use the one nation, one- Uh, I’ve never heard it expressed in,nn776n00:56:52.478 –> 00:56:53.118nin, in those words.nn777n00:56:53.118 –> 00:56:53.158nIn those words.nn778n00:56:53.158 –> 00:56:53.707nOkay.nn779n00:56:53.707 –> 00:56:56.088nOne life at a time, but- That may be in AA …nn780n00:56:56.088 –> 00:56:58.338nhe’s always talking about new men, new nations, and new world.nn781n00:56:58.338 –> 00:57:02.488nHe was constantly saying that, that the new world had to start in you, you see.nn782n00:57:02.488 –> 00:57:02.728nYeah.nn783n00:57:02.728 –> 00:57:12.988nAnd people are constantly, uh, talking about, uh, uh, changing the world or, uh, or, or, uh,nn784n00:57:12.988 –> 00:57:20.298ncreating something new in the world, but they’re always thinking in terms of Timbuktu or, or, or- At the end of the day …nn785n00:57:20.298 –> 00:57:21.288nsomeplace across the nation.nn786n00:57:21.288 –> 00:57:21.707nYeah.nn787n00:57:21.707 –> 00:57:27.238nThe world at most, I mean, what is the world to us?nn788n00:57:27.238 –> 00:57:31.028nThe world to us, I think, is the people we touch every day.nn789n00:57:31.028 –> 00:57:31.378nYeah.nn790n00:57:31.378 –> 00:57:38.988nAnd if we can’t affect, uh, something, change there, how in the world are we gonna change something over in Timbuktu, you see?nn791n00:57:38.988 –> 00:57:40.028nOh, yes.nn792n00:57:40.028 –> 00:57:44.668nAnd we’ve got to deal with the basics in our own life as they relate to other people.nn793n00:57:44.668 –> 00:57:46.388nLet me make sure I’ve got that right.nn794n00:57:46.388 –> 00:57:48.568nIt’s new men, new nations, new world.nn795n00:57:48.568 –> 00:57:49.248nA new world.nn796n00:57:49.248 –> 00:57:49.728nThat’s it.nn797n00:57:49.728 –> 00:57:50.168nGot it.nn798n00:57:50.168 –> 00:57:53.148nThat was, uh, that was his slogan, you see.nn799n00:57:53.148 –> 00:58:03.188nAnd we had lots of little slogans like, uh, like you could, uh, uh, “You can’t keep the birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from building nests in yournn800n00:58:03.188 –> 00:58:07.948nhair.” And, uh, things like that.nn801n00:58:07.948 –> 00:58:08.328nYeah.nn802n00:58:08.328 –> 00:58:14.468nAnd, uh, uh, Bookman, he said, “It’s not who’s right, but what’s right.” Yes.nn803n00:58:14.468 –> 00:58:16.368nWell, didn’t, uh…nn804n00:58:16.368 –> 00:58:28.268nOh, one other part of the program, let me talk, uh, touch on that before we, uh, run out of steam here, uh, is the, um-nn805n00:58:28.268 –> 00:58:30.768nMorning meditation, the, uh, quiet time.nn806n00:58:30.768 –> 00:58:31.148nYeah.nn807n00:58:31.148 –> 00:58:41.528nUm, even in this, uh, pamphlet, uh, this early pamphlet talks about, uh, uh, actually with a pen and pencil writing down,nn808n00:58:41.528 –> 00:58:50.008nuh, God’s guidance and, uh, and checking it out with somebody else who is also in, in, in contact with God.nn809n00:58:50.008 –> 00:58:50.368nYeah.nn810n00:58:50.368 –> 00:58:57.688nUm, can you, uh, elaborate on that in terms of how important that was, or was it e- was it really emphasized?nn811n00:58:57.688 –> 00:58:59.527nNow, that I’m not sure.nn812n00:58:59.527 –> 00:58:59.868nYeah.nn813n00:58:59.868 –> 00:59:01.428nUm, I, I’ll ask him.nn814n00:59:01.428 –> 00:59:11.468nHis name is Cal Wallet, and he’s been in AA since the, uh, uh, early ’60s, and his dad, uh, he took his dad through treatment centers several times in the ’50s, so he knewnn815n00:59:11.468 –> 00:59:12.428nall the old-timers.nn816n00:59:12.428 –> 00:59:13.068nYeah.nn817n00:59:13.068 –> 00:59:19.048nAnd he does from the podium talk about the four absolutes and the five C’s, and he does talk about the four-way test.nn818n00:59:19.048 –> 00:59:21.468nUh, he does describe it a little differently.nn819n00:59:21.468 –> 00:59:25.088nUh, I’d love to s- and I think maybe it’s just over the years.nn820n00:59:25.088 –> 00:59:34.228nUh- Well, I’ve been dealing with it, I’ve been dealing with it, uh, uh, for f- uh, well, I’ve been in, uh, been early since ’47.nn821n00:59:34.228 –> 00:59:44.548nAnd, uh, because of our connection with the Oxford Group, I’ve held onto this four-way test as a, uh, as a medium,nn822n00:59:44.548 –> 00:59:52.058nuh, or a vehicle by which we can bring something new into the lives of people without getting too sanctimonious or something, see?nn823n00:59:52.058 –> 00:59:53.548nOh, I like it very much.nn824n00:59:53.548 –> 00:59:56.308nSo, and, and so I’ve been using this to a great extent.nn825n00:59:56.308 –> 01:00:06.428nAnd the one other thing I’d like to, uh, ask you is to repeat again the, uh, the comment that, uh, Frank Bookman made about the, uh, writing down the guidance.nn826n01:00:06.428 –> 01:00:08.268nI think he said the strongest memory.nn827n01:00:08.268 –> 01:00:10.188nHe said the strongest memory.nn828n01:00:10.188 –> 01:00:13.948nIt, this is a, he quotes this as a Chinese proverb.nn829n01:00:13.948 –> 01:00:14.548nOkay.nn830n01:00:14.548 –> 01:00:17.028nThe old Chinese proverb, he used to go that.nn831n01:00:17.028 –> 01:00:20.548nThe strongest memory is weaker than the palest ink.nn832n01:00:20.548 –> 01:00:21.888nThan the palest ink.nn833n01:00:21.888 –> 01:00:22.488nOkay.nn834n01:00:22.488 –> 01:00:32.628nUh, is weaker than the palest ink, which, which means that, that the, the palest, uh, the, the palest ink is stronger, is, uh,nn835n01:00:32.628 –> 01:00:35.408nstronger than, than, than- Than any of our memories …nn836n01:00:35.408 –> 01:00:36.108nmemory, see?nn837n01:00:36.108 –> 01:00:37.688nOh, that is beautiful.nn838n01:00:37.688 –> 01:00:41.068nSee, the strongest memory is weaker than the palest ink.nn839n01:00:41.068 –> 01:00:44.028nThat is a, that’s a classic line.nn840n01:00:44.028 –> 01:00:46.508nI’d to, and I, I’d like to use that if I could.nn841n01:00:46.508 –> 01:00:47.468nDo I borrow that one?nn842n01:00:47.468 –> 01:00:48.548nIf Dr.nn843n01:00:48.548 –> 01:00:49.568nGroup would carry it.nn844n01:00:49.568 –> 01:00:52.008nI will definitely, uh, uh- Sure …nn845n01:00:52.008 –> 01:01:00.048nI wanna carry that along because that is as clear and, and concise a summary statement on the guidance that I’ve seen and why we write it down.nn846n01:01:00.048 –> 01:01:03.687nUh, no, this has been a great, uh, session.nn847n01:01:03.687 –> 01:01:08.568nUm, it’s hard to believe, but, uh, we’ve burned up an hour and a half here on- Yeah.nn848n01:01:08.568 –> 01:01:08.578n…nn849n01:01:08.578 –> 01:01:12.148non the telephone lines, and I certainly wanna do this again.nn850n01:01:12.148 –> 01:01:13.408nOh, fine.nn851n01:01:13.408 –> 01:01:23.908nUh, James, uh, I wanna thank you kindly, uh, uh, for sharing with us today on the, uh, on the early days of the Oxford Group and the connections and, uh,nn852n01:01:23.908 –> 01:01:32.808nsimilarities and differences as you see it between, uh, the Oxford Group, Moral Re-Armament today and, uh, and AA because, uh, AA has changed also over the years.nn853n01:01:32.808 –> 01:01:38.988nAnd part of our, uh, mission as archivists is to, uh, get AA back to the basics.nn854n01:01:38.988 –> 01:01:43.228nAnd, uh, and the basics, uh, for the Ox- for the AA was the Oxford Group.nn855n01:01:43.228 –> 01:01:49.548nAnd, uh, I think the closer we stay to our roots, the, the stronger the fellowship will become in the years ahead.nn856n01:01:49.548 –> 01:01:57.308nBut, uh, 95% of the people in AA don’t even have a clue as to where we came from, and that’s our mission, is to, is to make that information available.nn857n01:01:57.308 –> 01:02:01.148nAnd that’s what’s gonna happen at the Wolfson House, and that’s why I would love to have you there.nn858n01:02:01.148 –> 01:02:02.187nWell, that’s good.nn859n01:02:02.187 –> 01:02:03.678nI’ll, uh, I’ll, I’ll certainly try.nn860n01:02:03.678 –> 01:02:11.088nIn the meantime, why, I, I’ll, I’ll get some, any additional things that I think you might, uh, be interested in.nn861n01:02:11.088 –> 01:02:13.078nI have extra copies here.nn862n01:02:13.078 –> 01:02:14.268nI’ll send them on to you.nn863n01:02:14.268 –> 01:02:16.068nOh, that four-way test, uh…nn864n01:02:16.068 –> 01:02:21.018nAnd what I’ll do is I’ll dig out that, uh, uh, four absolute pamphlet- Yeah …nn865n01:02:21.018 –> 01:02:22.628nuh, that AA is still printing in Cleveland.nn866n01:02:22.628 –> 01:02:23.058nYeah.nn867n01:02:23.058 –> 01:02:24.388nAnd I’ll zip that one your way.nn868n01:02:24.388 –> 01:02:25.148nThat’d be great.nn869n01:02:25.148 –> 01:02:25.377nI’ll appreciate it.nn870n01:02:25.377 –> 01:02:29.528nSo that you see that at least there’s a pocket of enthusiasm left out here- Okay …nn871n01:02:29.528 –> 01:02:30.708nin the Cleveland area.nn872n01:02:30.708 –> 01:02:31.268nYeah.nn873n01:02:31.268 –> 01:02:35.708nAnd, uh, I’ll be in touch later, uh, probably over the weekend or first next week.nn874n01:02:35.708 –> 01:02:39.508nUh, do you have a message machine where I could leave a message if you’re not there?nn875n01:02:39.508 –> 01:02:40.068nOh, sure.nn876n01:02:40.068 –> 01:02:40.608nOkay.nn877n01:02:40.608 –> 01:02:47.488nUh, and keep you posted on, uh, on what the, uh, feedback from the Wolfson House is in terms of- Yeah …nn878n01:02:47.488 –> 01:02:49.908nuh, well, I’m s- sure they’re gonna welcome you with open arms.nn879n01:02:49.908 –> 01:02:55.468nNell Wang, Bill Wilson’s secretary, would love to meet you, as well as everybody that’s gonna be there.nn880n01:02:55.468 –> 01:03:05.768nUh, it’s a small crowd, but these are people that are coming in all over the country, and these are the people that’ll be carrying that message back to the four corners of the United States as to, uh,nn881n01:03:05.768 –> 01:03:07.268nwhat the early days, uh, meant.nn882n01:03:07.268 –> 01:03:10.628nAnd you, you’d be such a welcome addition to this session.nn883n01:03:10.628 –> 01:03:12.668nI’m, I’ll be glad to contribute anything.nn884n01:03:12.668 –> 01:03:20.218nOh, uh, what a, what a godsend that, uh, that you’re, that you’re with us today so that, uh, we can still hear what it was like.nn885n01:03:20.218 –> 01:03:24.538nWell, you can thank Trish for that because she was the one that- I am definitely gonna be calling her tonight …nn886n01:03:24.538 –> 01:03:24.958nthat called me.nn887n01:03:24.958 –> 01:03:26.418nUh, see, I talked to her.nn888n01:03:26.418 –> 01:03:29.288nWe were sh- I forget where we were, too.nn889n01:03:29.288 –> 01:03:34.208nWe were at your Oxford Gr- um, MRM meeting here some time ago.nn890n01:03:34.208 –> 01:03:40.928nOh, well, I was talking to her about this, and, uh, she recalled it, and she, uh, called me on the phone the other day.nn891n01:03:40.928 –> 01:03:43.848nSo what we’re talking about now came out of that conversation.nn892n01:03:43.848 –> 01:03:45.448nOh, that’s so…nn893n01:03:45.448 –> 01:03:46.748nIt’s amazing how God works.nn894n01:03:46.748 –> 01:03:47.288nIt is.nn895n01:03:47.288 –> 01:03:47.378nYeah.nn896n01:03:47.378 –> 01:03:50.348nBut he’s, but he’s working in all of our lives, and it shows.nn897n01:03:50.348 –> 01:03:53.368nYes, I’m amazed every day at- Me too …nn898n01:03:53.368 –> 01:03:56.108nuh, the, the truths that he bring, he brings into our lives.nn899n01:03:56.108 –> 01:03:56.768nOh.nn900n01:03:56.768 –> 01:03:59.708nWell, you enjoy the day, and I’ll be in touch with you real soon.nn901n01:03:59.708 –> 01:04:00.488nThank you, Wally.nn902n01:04:00.488 –> 01:04:01.388nThank you, James.nn903n01:04:01.388 –> 01:04:01.988nI look forward to it.nn904n01:04:01.988 –> 01:04:02.707nYou take care.nn905n01:04:02.707 –> 01:04:03.128nRight.nn906n01:04:03.128 –> 01:04:03.888nBye-bye.nn907n01:04:03.888 –> 01:04:03.958nOkay.nn908n01:04:03.958 –> 01:04:05.088nBye-bye.nn909n01:04:05.088 –> 01:04:17.628nWenn910n01:04:17.628 –> 01:04:19.368nhope you enjoyed this recording.nn911n01:04:19.368 –> 01:04:26.808nPlease check out our website at www.sobrietytalk.com.nn912n01:04:26.808 –> 01:04:28.158nThank you.nn913n01:04:28.158 –> 01:05:00.678nWenn914n01:05:00.678 –> 01:05:10.838ncarry forward so that it doesn’t get lost in all the folderol that we seem to be seeing in some of these AA meetings wherenn915n01:05:10.838 –> 01:05:14.038nall you do is hear drunk a log and all problem and no solution.nn916n01:05:14.038 –> 01:05:16.498nAnd God is the solution.nn917n01:05:16.498 –> 01:05:23.418nAnd that’s what I truly believe that we’re here to talk about when we go to meetings is how God’s changed our lives.nn918n01:05:23.418 –> 01:05:26.318nAnd he’s obviously changed your life.nn919n01:05:26.318 –> 01:05:29.318nAnd I’m really looking forward to our getting together.nn920n01:05:29.318 –> 01:05:39.358nIf you would allow me to do so, I would love to call the Wilson House and let them know that you’re coming and they-nn921n01:05:39.358 –> 01:05:41.138nWell, they know, but I’ll take care of it.nn922n01:05:41.138 –> 01:05:42.738nI’ll get up one in the motel.nn923n01:05:42.738 –> 01:05:48.818nDon’t crowd me in there because that’ll be inconvenient to someone else.nn924n01:05:48.818 –> 01:05:51.978nAnd I’d rather just go into a motel, really.nn925n01:05:51.978 –> 01:05:52.438nOkay.nn926n01:05:52.438 –> 01:05:57.718nI’d also like to invite you to share some of this on the podium.nn927n01:05:57.718 –> 01:06:07.798nIt’s just for the record because all of this is being taped and I would like to have you speak for the record on thenn928n01:06:07.798 –> 01:06:13.178ndifferences that you see between the AA meetings and the Oxford Group meetings and the emphasis and all of that.nn929n01:06:13.178 –> 01:06:16.898nThat is all vital information that people need to hear.nn930n01:06:16.898 –> 01:06:17.198nYeah.nn931n01:06:17.198 –> 01:06:28.278nOr we’re going to get so watered down and diluted that they’ll think that we’re just another, like Henrietta Siverling said, well,nn932n01:06:28.278 –> 01:06:30.838nBill wanted to de-emphasize God.nn933n01:06:30.838 –> 01:06:31.308nYeah.nn934n01:06:31.308 –> 01:06:38.598nThis was back in, I believe in the late 30s and they were in the process of writing the book of Alcoholics Anonymous.nn935n01:06:38.598 –> 01:06:42.138nAnd he was talking to Henrietta about de-emphasizing the God part.nn936n01:06:42.138 –> 01:06:48.278nAnd Henrietta said, well, we’re not here to please the alcoholic.nn937n01:06:48.278 –> 01:06:49.318nWe’re here to please God.nn938n01:06:49.318 –> 01:06:51.918nThe alcoholic’s been pleasing himself all these years anyway.nn939n01:06:51.918 –> 01:06:52.578nYeah.nn940n01:06:52.578 –> 01:06:56.938nBut she said, if you take God out of the program, you might as well be the Rotary Club.nn941n01:06:56.938 –> 01:06:57.758nThat’s right.nn942n01:06:57.758 –> 01:07:08.038nAnd heaven help us if we ever become the Rotary Club because as much of a value as they are, I mean, we definitely are supposednn943n01:07:08.038 –> 01:07:16.598nto be talking about a spiritual solution to the afflictions that have held us back from this conscious contact with God.nn944n01:07:16.598 –> 01:07:26.738nWell, in Rotary, we have a four-step, I mean, the four-way test, which is very, very similar to the fournn945n01:07:26.738 –> 01:07:27.338nstandards.nn946n01:07:27.338 –> 01:07:32.638nAnd I’ve been preaching this program for 29 years now in schools.nn947n01:07:32.638 –> 01:07:35.678nIt’s the truth.nn948n01:07:35.678 –> 01:07:37.218nIt’s fair to all concerned.nn949n01:07:37.218 –> 01:07:39.418nWill it build goodwill and better friendships?nn950n01:07:39.418 –> 01:07:42.178nAnd will it be beneficial to all concerned?nn951n01:07:42.178 –> 01:07:47.438nSo you can see that the four standards are all intertwined in that.nn952n01:07:47.438 –> 01:07:53.838nAnd some of the schools here are usually saying this along with the Pledge of Allegiance in the morning.nn953n01:07:53.838 –> 01:07:58.058nCan’t be attacked on a religious basis because it’s a moral issue.nn954n01:07:58.058 –> 01:08:04.198nAnd so- I have heard that test stated differently.nn955n01:08:04.198 –> 01:08:10.238nCan you do that again a little bit slower so I can- Number one, is it the truth?nn956n01:08:10.238 –> 01:08:10.488nIs it the truth, yes.nn957n01:08:10.488 –> 01:08:20.518nI’d rather didn’t say if it isn’t the truth or not because when you say is it the truth, you get into some sort of a connotation of a little white lie, younn958n01:08:20.518 –> 01:08:21.498nknow, that sort of thing.nn959n01:08:21.498 –> 01:08:21.908nOkay.nn960n01:08:21.908 –> 01:08:32.078nI’ve even heard one of our AA sponsors here locally tell one of the people they were working with,nn961n01:08:32.078 –> 01:08:33.478nit’s okay to lie a little.nn962n01:08:33.478 –> 01:08:35.018nOh, my God.nn963n01:08:35.018 –> 01:08:35.478nYeah.nn964n01:08:35.478 –> 01:08:36.658nCan you imagine that?nn965n01:08:36.658 –> 01:08:38.338nThat’s the blind leading the blind.nn966n01:08:38.338 –> 01:08:43.778nIt’s okay tou2014this is one of the 12-step programs that I got involved in.nn967n01:08:43.778 –> 01:08:46.858nBut anyhow, is it the truth is the first one.nn968n01:08:46.858 –> 01:08:46.948nYep.nn969n01:08:46.948 –> 01:08:49.748nThe second one, is it fair to all concerned?nn970n01:08:49.748 –> 01:08:54.537nNumber three, will it build goodwill and better friendships?nn971n01:08:54.537 –> 01:08:58.878nNumber four, is it beneficial to all concerned?nn972n01:08:58.878 –> 01:09:00.358nWow.nn973n01:09:00.358 –> 01:09:01.738nThat’s the program.nn974n01:09:01.738 –> 01:09:02.138nYep.nn975n01:09:02.138 –> 01:09:04.617nI’ll beu2014how- That’s the test.nn976n01:09:04.617 –> 01:09:14.838nI’ve got one of thoseu2014this goes back to the morning plot time that a fellow by the name of Herb Taylor had in the early 30snn977n01:09:14.838 –> 01:09:23.458nabout how to bring an answer to non-growth businesses he’d been in chargeu2014put in charge of.nn978n01:09:23.458 –> 01:09:24.938nAnd those are no longer available.nn979n01:09:24.938 –> 01:09:27.078nI have copies, and I’ll send you one of those.nn980n01:09:27.078 –> 01:09:28.998nOh, if you- See how these are related.nn981n01:09:28.998 –> 01:09:33.178nIf you could, then I would certainly like to make copies of those for the conference, too.nn982n01:09:33.178 –> 01:09:33.718nSure.nn983n01:09:33.718 –> 01:09:43.738nBecause the four-way testu2014we have an old-timer from Cleveland that kind of keeps on the four absolutes and the five C’s, and he talked aboutnn984n01:09:43.738 –> 01:09:44.778nthe four-way test.nn985n01:09:44.778 –> 01:09:46.438nBut in our- Rotary?nn986n01:09:46.438 –> 01:09:47.418nI’m sorry?nn987n01:09:47.418 –> 01:09:48.598nIs he a Rotarian?nn”;

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