marty mann presented by mily t – 2025-12-02

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Unknown Tuesday Night History Workshop • 2025

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Unknown ABOUT THIS WORKSHOP

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Unknown mily t speaking on "marty mann" in Tuesday Night History Workshop (December 02, 2025). This recording is preserved in high-fidelity with interactive scrolling transcripts.

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Unknown Interactive Transcript

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[00 00:03.080 – 00:00:07.379] Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop.

0:14

[00 00:07.379 – 00:00:09.480] Thanks for joining us.

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[00 00:09.480 – 00:00:13.000] My name is Tim, and tonight's presentation on Mrs.

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[00 00:13.000 – 00:00:17.800] Marty Mann, Early AA Woman, is presented by Miley T.

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[00 00:17.800 – 00:00:19.199] in San Francisco.

0:24

[00 00:19.199 – 00:00:26.839] And we meet here every Tuesday night at the same time and at the same Zoom ID.

0:29

[00 00:26.839 – 00:00:31.339] And next week will be Chris J.

0:32

[00 00:31.339 – 00:00:34.659] presenting on Hank P., The Big Book and Beyond.

0:35

[00 00:34.659 – 00:00:44.799] And I also wanna make sure everyone knows, I don't have it up on the screen, but I shared the flyer in the chat for December 16th,

0:44

[00 00:44.799 – 00:00:46.560] and that will be Nick H.

0:46

[00 00:46.560 – 00:00:50.600] presenting Sam Shoemaker and the principles he passed on to us.

0:50

[00 00:50.600 – 00:01:00.640] And this meeting is being recorded, and all past audio recordings are, can be

0:55

[00 01:00.640 – 00:01:03.100] found at recoveryspeakers.com.

0:56

[00 01:03.100 – 00:01:06.819] I shared a link into the chat to where you can find that category.

1:01

[00 01:06.819 – 00:01:16.819] Um, Recovery Speakers is not affiliated with any 12-step organization, though our focus is the history of AA and other

1:08

[00 01:16.819 – 00:01:18.099] 12-step fellowships.

1:08

[00 01:18.099 – 00:01:28.260] Recoveryspeakers.com is a 501[c][3] nonprofit dedicated to preserving and sharing the audio history

1:13

[00 01:28.260 – 00:01:33.579] of AA and the 12-step movement today and for future generations.

1:17

[00 01:33.579 – 00:01:43.900] We also send a daily email featuring a speaker talk from our archive, recordings from these meetings, and information on upcoming

1:24

[00 01:43.900 – 00:01:45.060] presentations.

1:25

[00 01:45.060 – 00:01:56.040] If you would like to receive our daily email, you can subscribe through a link I shared in the chat, or you can send me an email at info@recoveryspeakers.com

1:35

[00 01:56.040 – 00:01:58.459] and I will get you added to our email list.

1:38

[00 01:58.459 – 00:02:04.299] And if you are able to support our work, contributions are appreciated.

1:42

[00 02:04.299 – 00:02:10.118] Uh, the donation link is in the chat, or you can use the QR code that is up on the screen.

1:49

[00 02:10.118 – 00:02:20.300] And tonight, after Miley's presentation, um, there will be some time for Q&A, so if anyone has questions for Miley throughout her talk,

1:57

[00 02:20.300 – 00:02:24.479] please write them down and be prepared to ask them at the end of the meeting.

2:03

[00 02:24.479 – 00:02:29.400] I am also going to close the chat during the presentation.

2:06

[00 02:29.400 – 00:02:34.120] I will open that back up after Miley has completed the presentation.

2:11

[00 02:34.120 – 00:02:41.439] And now that is it for me, so I am going to go ahead and just turn it right over to Miley.

2:18

[00 02:41.439 – 00:02:51.979] I appreciate all of the research and all of the hard work that she's done in, um, piecing together some of this story, and she does such an amazing job of,

2:28

[00 02:51.979 – 00:02:54.939] uh, putting it together and sharing it with all of us.

2:32

[00 02:54.939 – 00:02:59.560] So Miley, thank you for being here, and you can take it away.

2:36

[00 02:59.560 – 00:03:00.020] All right.

2:37

[00 03:00.020 – 00:03:01.139] Thank you so much.

2:39

[00 03:01.139 – 00:03:08.080] I really appreciate you, Tim, so let me get this going, and let me get the slideshow.

2:44

[00 03:08.080 – 00:03:08.659] Let's go.

2:45

[00 03:08.659 – 00:03:10.039] I have to say everything out loud.

2:48

[00 03:10.039 – 00:03:11.060] There we go.

2:49

[00 03:11.060 – 00:03:11.340] All right.

2:50

[00 03:11.340 – 00:03:12.319] How's that looking, Tim?

2:52

[00 03:12.319 – 00:03:13.860] Perfect.

2:52

[00 03:13.860 – 00:03:14.349] Great.

2:53

[00 03:14.349 – 00:03:15.360] Okay, fantastic.

2:54

[00 03:15.360 – 00:03:20.659] First of all, thank you so much, Tim, Mike, everyone that's at Recovery Speakers.

2:59

[00 03:20.659 – 00:03:24.120] You all are really the gold standard, and I so appreciate.

3:02

[00 03:24.120 – 00:03:27.759] You've been so p- supportive of m- of me over the last seven years as...

3:07

[00 03:27.759 – 00:03:29.609] I, I do this Marty Mann talk.

3:10

[00 03:29.609 – 00:03:36.689] I also give a talk about Florence R., uh, who, author of the first edition, um, uh, Feminine Victory.

3:16

[00 03:36.689 – 00:03:42.139] And then I have a brand-new talk that I'll be giving here in February, and I'll tell you a, a little bit about that at the end.

3:25

[00 03:42.139 – 00:03:52.680] But again, thank you so much to Recovery Speakers, and also you've been so generous in sha- letting me be able to share audio recordings of, of our early AAs, as well as some fantastic

3:37

[00 03:52.680 – 00:03:53.340] images.

3:37

[00 03:53.340 – 00:03:54.300] Okay.

3:38

[00 03:54.300 – 00:04:01.719] So I'm gonna jump right in and say, uh, please do not take any photos, record any audio, or record any videos.

3:45

[00 04:01.719 – 00:04:03.080] I appreciate that.

3:46

[00 04:03.080 – 00:04:10.819] So a lot of the information that I'm gonna tell you about today came from a fantastic biography called A Biography of Mrs.

3:54

[00 04:10.819 – 00:04:15.360] Marty Mann, and the subheading is The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous.

3:58

[00 04:15.360 – 00:04:16.879] You'll notice that Mrs.

4:00

[00 04:16.879 – 00:04:21.480] is in italics, and, um, we will be discussing that later.

4:03

[00 04:21.480 – 00:04:24.180] The biographers are Sally and David Brown.

4:06

[00 04:24.180 – 00:04:34.759] Uh, their family's given me permission to share that, uh, Sally passed at the age of 96 with 42 years of sobriety, and her husband, David, was a grateful member of Al-Anon.

4:16

[00 04:34.759 – 00:04:44.759] I had the great good fortune of getting to meet Sally, and I brought a copy of my well-worn biography, and she signed it there for me, and she's

4:25

[00 04:44.759 – 00:04:46.620] what a lovely, lovely person.

4:27

[00 04:46.620 – 00:04:49.920] And honestly, I can't say enough great things about the book.

4:31

[00 04:49.920 – 00:04:51.680] There's nothing I would change.

4:33

[00 04:51.680 – 00:04:55.879] I, you know, I have learned a few new things since, since it was published.

4:38

[00 04:55.879 – 00:05:02.540] Um, but I think it, I just think it's beautifully written and very sensitive and, uh, very well-researched.

4:44

[00 05:02.540 – 00:05:07.259] Um, in addition to the book, I've also, uh, gone to these places.

4:48

[00 05:07.259 – 00:05:10.968] The Syracuse University has the personal archives of Marty Mann.

4:52

[00 05:10.968 – 00:05:15.819] Brown University has the archives of the National Council on Alcoholism.

4:56

[00 05:15.819 – 00:05:24.540] Stepping Stones, as I'm sure most of you know, it's the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson, and it's a- they also have an amazing archive.

5:05

[00 05:24.540 – 00:05:26.399] I so appreciate everything.

5:06

[00 05:26.399 – 00:05:31.860] They've been very generous with me, and, uh, I just really, I just appreciate them so much.

5:12

[00 05:31.860 – 00:05:39.879] And then of course, Recovery Speakers, as I mentioned before, very generous in sharing these audio recordings and really sharing it with the world.

5:20

[00 05:39.879 – 00:05:41.199] How lucky we are.

5:21

[00 05:41.199 – 00:05:51.220] And then the AA Grapevine, for those of you that are unaware, if you get a digital subscription to The Grapevine, you can literally read every single issue that's ever

5:31

[00 05:51.220 – 00:05:57.319] come out, and that's been a tremendous resource for me in studying these different, uh, different people.

5:37

[00 05:57.319 – 00:06:00.040] Uh, Vogue Magazine has a archive.

5:39

[00 06:00.040 – 00:06:03.740] Newspapers.com and ancestry.com came in very handy.

5:42

[00 06:03.740 – 00:06:10.680] The General Service Office archives in Manhattan, I hope if any of you go to Manhattan, I would encourage you to visit them.

5:50

[00 06:10.680 – 00:06:16.120] It's a wonderful, wonderful, very special to be able to go in there and see, see the items that they have.

5:57

[00 06:16.120 – 00:06:21.540] And then I was also able to find some information at the Tate Library and Archive in London, England.

6:03

[00 06:21.540 – 00:06:25.600] One of my most valuable resources was interviewing a woman named Lori D.

6:08

[00 06:25.600 – 00:06:31.639] She lives in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and she's been sober since 1967.

6:12

[00 06:31.639 – 00:06:41.120] And, uh, she knew Marty Mann f- pretty well in the late 1960s, and she has shared really fantastic insights into her personality.

6:19

[00 06:41.120 – 00:06:45.399] So I will be quoting Lori, uh, several times throughout the talk.

6:23

[00 06:45.399 – 00:06:48.959] Now, I also wrote this article for The Grapevine.

6:27

[00 06:48.959 – 00:06:51.199] It came out in March of 2025.

6:29

[00 06:51.199 – 00:06:51.839] Penny P.

6:30

[00 06:51.839 – 00:06:55.420] was one of my editors, so I s- I certainly appreciate that.

6:34

[00 06:55.420 – 00:06:55.519] And-

6:34

[00 06:55.663 – 00:06:58.663] This was for their Sober and Out, uh, issue.

6:38

[00 06:58.663 – 00:07:01.942] So, uh, I, um, I'm happy about that.

6:40

[00 07:01.942 – 00:07:04.443] Re- f- you know, um, yeah.

6:43

[00 07:04.443 – 00:07:05.462] I'll leave it at that.

6:45

[00 07:05.462 – 00:07:14.423] So, um, so Margret Mann was born in 1904 in Chicago, and this is her birth certificate, and these are photographs of her parents.

6:52

[00 07:14.423 – 00:07:20.323] Her parents, uh, William and Lillian, they, uh, were actually multimillionaires.

6:56

[00 07:20.323 – 00:07:27.453] And that's, I mean, it's a big deal to be a multimillionaire now, but you can imagine how rare that was back in 1904.

7:04

[00 07:27.453 – 00:07:29.633] Very, very wealthy.

7:05

[00 07:29.633 – 00:07:31.343] They lived in Chicago.

7:06

[00 07:31.343 – 00:07:39.823] And, uh, this photo is of Marty at age 13, and she's over, looking over the twins and as well as her younger sister, Chris.

7:14

[00 07:39.823 – 00:07:46.393] So, uh, again, um, the-- and it's nice, 'cause the siblings remained close throughout their entire lives.

7:20

[00 07:46.393 – 00:07:47.623] It, so that's a blessing.

7:22

[00 07:47.623 – 00:07:51.763] This is another wonderful photo of the, the entire family.

7:25

[00 07:51.763 – 00:07:58.123] Uh, Marty went to boarding school in New York, and then she went to finishing school in Florence, Italy.

7:32

[00 07:58.123 – 00:08:01.843] So that, that's the level of wealth that we're talking about here.

7:36

[00 08:01.843 – 00:08:07.123] Um, I'm gonna keep this a pretty st- quick pace in this presentation.

7:40

[00 08:07.123 – 00:08:17.223] I actually have prob- well, at least around 350 slides, I would say, and I'm only gonna be able to show you around 80 tonight, because no one really wants to be here all

7:51

[00 08:17.223 – 00:08:18.203] night and all morning.

7:52

[00 08:18.203 – 00:08:24.463] So I, I, I try to s- to squish as much in as I can, but that's why I, I, I speak pretty quickly.

8:00

[00 08:24.463 – 00:08:27.633] So this is the, um, uh, marriage certificate.

8:03

[00 08:27.633 – 00:08:30.363] Marty did get married, uh, hence Mrs.

8:06

[00 08:30.363 – 00:08:32.853] Marty Mann, in 1927.

8:07

[00 08:32.853 – 00:08:35.683] And she eloped with a fellow named John Blakemore.

8:10

[00 08:35.683 – 00:08:43.383] She was at a society party in New Orleans where she met him, and he already had a reputation as a problem drinker.

8:18

[00 08:43.383 – 00:08:49.403] That, that did not deter Marty whatsoever, and, um, they, they literally eloped.

8:22

[00 08:49.403 – 00:08:55.403] Now, eloping would be a big deal for any family, but you can imagine a family of their wealth.

8:28

[00 08:55.403 – 00:09:02.063] I mean, normally that kind of high society family, I think would, it would be, certainly it would be in the newspapers.

8:36

[00 09:02.063 – 00:09:06.223] I'm sure they would've had numerous parties to celebrate this, this union.

8:40

[00 09:06.223 – 00:09:14.072] But no, they, Marty and John ran across the Mississippi River and eloped without telling anyone.

8:45

[00 09:14.072 – 00:09:23.063] Well, Marty, and, and so I think, I think that gives you, indicates a little bit about Marty's personality and maybe, um, maybe she had also been drinking as well.

8:55

[00 09:23.063 – 00:09:25.323] In fact, we know she'd already been drinking.

8:58

[00 09:25.323 – 00:09:35.323] Um, now, uh, after only three months, Marty realized that she'd made a terrible mistake, and she filed for divorce by going to their ranch

9:06

[00 09:35.323 – 00:09:36.403] in New Mexico.

9:07

[00 09:36.403 – 00:09:43.023] Back then on the West Coast, it was a little easier to, to get a divorce, and luckily the family already had a residence.

9:15

[00 09:43.023 – 00:09:44.223] So she went there.

9:17

[00 09:44.223 – 00:09:49.623] I was able to see the divorce papers at Syracuse University, and a few things are interesting.

9:22

[00 09:49.623 – 00:09:57.763] One is she asked the judge for, she'd like, she wanted to return to her family name, her, what they call a maiden name, which is Mann.

9:31

[00 09:57.763 – 00:09:59.063] Her family name is Mann.

9:33

[00 09:59.063 – 00:10:02.882] And, uh, she decided to return the name of Blakemore.

9:37

[00 10:02.882 – 00:10:04.423] But it's very interesting.

9:38

[00 10:04.423 – 00:10:13.023] You'll notice, and I'm sure if you've heard audio recordings of Marty speaking or different articles about her, she's al- almost always referred to as Mrs.

9:47

[00 10:13.023 – 00:10:14.643] Marty Mann.

9:48

[00 10:14.643 – 00:10:16.283] That's how she would introduce herself.

9:50

[00 10:16.283 – 00:10:18.393] That's how other people would introduce her.

9:53

[00 10:18.393 – 00:10:23.313] And, uh, I always like to think it was almost like she was hypnotizing the country over and over and over.

10:00

[00 10:23.313 – 00:10:24.843] It's like, "I, my name is Mrs.

10:02

[00 10:24.843 – 00:10:25.603] Marty Mann.

10:03

[00 10:25.603 – 00:10:25.923] I'm Mrs.

10:04

[00 10:25.923 – 00:10:26.643] Marty Mann.

10:05

[00 10:26.643 – 00:10:27.003] I'm Mrs.

10:06

[00 10:27.003 – 00:10:27.733] Marty Mann.

10:07

[00 10:27.733 – 00:10:28.063] I'm Mrs.

10:08

[00 10:28.063 – 00:10:32.943] Marty Mann." And I'm gonna talk a little bit more about why I think she may have done that.

10:14

[00 10:32.943 – 00:10:40.023] Now, um, Marty's father lost the entire family fortune as a result of his gambling.

10:19

[00 10:40.023 – 00:10:46.303] He was also a drinker, and he filed for bankruptcy 17 days prior to the stock market crash.

10:25

[00 10:46.303 – 00:10:48.503] So that was 1929.

10:26

[00 10:48.503 – 00:10:58.503] Sometimes people think that they lost everything in the Great Depression, but actually they had lost everything immediately prior to the Great Depression as, again, as a result of his gambling

10:36

[00 10:58.503 – 00:11:00.053] and, and drinking, I would say.

10:38

[00 11:00.053 – 00:11:03.563] So, um, th- that money, they never regained that money.

10:42

[00 11:03.563 – 00:11:05.283] They never regained their wealth.

10:44

[00 11:05.283 – 00:11:11.602] Uh, so Marty, I think, was very clever and really, I think could really read the room.

10:50

[00 11:11.602 – 00:11:16.843] She went to New York and, for the first year, and she got a job working for a magazine.

10:56

[00 11:16.843 – 00:11:20.643] So s- you know, she was, really had to be self-supporting.

11:00

[00 11:20.643 – 00:11:21.443] She, and again.

11:01

[00 11:21.443 – 00:11:27.563] But after a year in New York, she decided to go to Europe, and there she went to England in 1930.

11:08

[00 11:27.563 – 00:11:30.783] And I was able to find this UK/Ireland passenger list.

11:11

[00 11:30.783 – 00:11:34.593] And there she fell in love with a woman named Barbara Kerr-Seymour.

11:15

[00 11:34.593 – 00:11:44.143] Now, the reason we have these fantastic images, both from the Tate Library in London, is because Barbara Kerr-Seymour was a ve- pretty well-known photographer.

11:24

[00 11:44.143 – 00:11:46.283] I would say maybe even a famous photographer.

11:27

[00 11:46.283 – 00:11:48.823] That's why her estate is at the Tate.

11:29

[00 11:48.823 – 00:11:51.923] It's not Marty's estate, it's Barbara, Barbara's estate.

11:32

[00 11:51.923 – 00:11:56.483] But luckily for us, we have these fantastic photos as well as some letters.

11:37

[00 11:56.483 – 00:12:01.803] Now, um, I went over there, of course, and you can tell I'm extremely excited.

11:42

[00 12:01.803 – 00:12:05.203] I always feel like that picture on the left, like, I think I'm almost levitating.

11:47

[00 12:05.203 – 00:12:07.583] I am so extremely excited.

11:49

[00 12:07.583 – 00:12:12.583] And there I am, this is 2022, wearing my mask and holding up this letter.

11:54

[00 12:12.583 – 00:12:18.203] I'm only gonna read the first paragraph because, uh, it's a long letter, but you get the picture.

12:00

[00 12:18.203 – 00:12:19.603] Uh, Marty's in Paris.

12:01

[00 12:19.603 – 00:12:24.153] She's writing back to Barbara, who's in London, and it's May 1st, 1931.

12:05

[00 12:24.153 – 00:12:32.963] And she says, "My own darling baby, I miss you so terribly, but it's like an awful empty ache every time I come back to this room.

12:14

[00 12:32.963 – 00:12:39.223] I curse the fact that you aren't here, and every time I go out of it, I long for you to be going with me.

12:23

[00 12:39.223 – 00:12:41.363] I love you so much, my sweetie.

12:25

[00 12:41.363 – 00:12:44.803] I wish I'd had a letter from you tonight." Right.

12:29

[00 12:44.803 – 00:12:46.623] So that's 1931.

12:30

[00 12:46.623 – 00:12:50.523] Now, here's a fantastic photo of Marty with some of her friends.

12:34

[00 12:50.523 – 00:12:54.063] They often went to Toulon down in the French Riviera.

12:37

[00 12:54.063 – 00:12:57.223] Um, I also went down there to scope it out.

12:41

[00 12:57.223 – 00:13:01.723] And the hotel that they reference in, in these scrapbooks, it still exists.

12:45

[00 13:01.723 – 00:13:05.023] And it was also the home of the Paris Navy-- I mean, the Paris.

12:50

[00 13:05.023 – 00:13:06.013] The French Navy.

12:51

[00 13:06.013 – 00:13:09.052] So, um, she and her friends, they loved to go down there.

12:55

[00 13:09.052 – 00:13:15.563] And at the time, dressing up as French sailors and going out to the bars was a very popular thing.

13:02

[00 13:15.563 – 00:13:19.563] So many, many, many people did that, and, uh, including her crowd.

13:06

[00 13:19.563 – 00:13:21.503] So these are all women here in this photo.

13:09

[00 13:21.503 – 00:13:29.483] It is su- It just, this photo has a lot of personality, and that's Marty second to the left, and they're, they're just having a great time.

13:18

[00 13:29.483 – 00:13:32.203] Now, you'll notice, see, check out this woman on the left.

13:22

[00 13:32.203 – 00:13:41.043] And can I just say, I'll just say this many times, but God bless people that put people's names on photos as well as dates, as well as diaries, okay?

13:32

[00 13:41.043 – 00:13:45.983] 'Cause what we see here is a woman, and I was-- and on the backside, it did have her last name.

13:38

[00 13:45.983 – 00:13:48.603] Well, it turned out she was also an American.

13:42

[00 13:48.603 – 00:13:50.143] She was also a lesbian.

13:44

[00 13:50.143 – 00:13:51.133] She was also an alcohol-

13:45

[00 13:51.269 – 00:13:51.559] holic.

13:46

[00 13:51.559 – 00:14:01.829] And what we see here is that this is from a, um, um, an, obviously this is from Los Angeles, and, um, it's from the Washington Times,

13:55

[00 14:01.829 – 00:14:03.539] but she died in Los Angeles.

13:57

[00 14:03.539 – 00:14:14.099] And what we learn here is that she was a, a, a, she was a relationsh- she was related to William Randolph Hearst, and that she died in a psychiatric

14:07

[00 14:14.099 – 00:14:17.389] hospital, and she jumped from the second story.

14:10

[00 14:17.389 – 00:14:23.039] But she was really there for her drinking, because that's how many, many alcoholics and drug addicts were treated.

14:16

[00 14:23.039 – 00:14:27.259] They were put in asylums as well as, you know, these type of institutions.

14:21

[00 14:27.259 – 00:14:28.259] And so this is...

14:22

[00 14:28.259 – 00:14:32.019] And when I read more about Marty, and the more I learn, many of her friends died.

14:28

[00 14:32.019 – 00:14:35.989] Many, many, many of her friends died as a result of their drinking.

14:33

[00 14:35.989 – 00:14:39.119] And Marty be- ca- came very close, as you'll see.

14:36

[00 14:39.119 – 00:14:41.519] Now, Marty's last job was at the Royal Opera House.

14:40

[00 14:41.519 – 00:14:43.599] I went there, bought tickets for something.

14:42

[00 14:43.599 – 00:14:46.979] I think I saw the ballet Romeo and Juliet, and went there.

14:46

[00 14:46.979 – 00:14:49.729] But I really wanted to see what it was like when Marty worked there.

14:51

[00 14:49.729 – 00:14:51.699] This was her last, like, real job.

14:53

[00 14:51.699 – 00:14:56.058] Um, and so that's it, and it's, it's just gorgeous, as you can imagine.

14:58

[00 14:56.058 – 00:15:04.199] But, um, so, uh, this, we're now gonna hear, uh, Marty's, uh, own description of some of the consequences of her drinking.

15:06

[00 15:04.199 – 00:15:13.079] So this is a, uh, she's talking about 1935, but the recording is she's, she's, um, speaking in 1980 at a meeting in Connecticut.

15:13

[00 15:13.079 – 00:15:21.159] So turn up your audio a bit if you can, and I'll do the same, and, um, here is Marty Mann.

15:20

[00 15:21.159 – 00:15:27.339] There was a big party for a lot of Americans, and it was Fourth of July party.

15:25

[00 15:27.339 – 00:15:32.399] And I disappeared early, shortly after we arrived.

15:28

[00 15:32.399 – 00:15:35.599] I wasn't feeling very well, and I couldn't be found.

15:32

[00 15:35.599 – 00:15:45.619] And pretty soon I was found, and I was found on the terrace in pieces, and I had fractured my leg up near the hips, and I had fractured my

15:42

[00 15:45.619 – 00:15:50.459] jaw on both sides, and I had knocked out all my lower teeth, and I had bit the sides off my tongue.

15:49

[00 15:50.459 – 00:16:01.299] And here we were in a little town way off in nowhere, and I had to stay in that hospital just the way I was, uh,

15:57

[00 16:01.299 – 00:16:05.839] until I could be gotten into the Royal National Orthopedic Hospital in London.

16:02

[00 16:05.839 – 00:16:15.659] So for those of you that are history buffs, you would know how excited I would be when I found that photograph that says the Royal National Orthopedic Hospital.

16:11

[00 16:15.659 – 00:16:17.579] Oh, my goodness.

16:13

[00 16:17.579 – 00:16:19.999] I really do enjoy myself doing all this stuff.

16:16

[00 16:19.999 – 00:16:20.859] I really do.

16:17

[00 16:20.859 – 00:16:30.699] So anyway, was that enough for Marty to quit drinking, was falling from a second-story window not knowing if she fell or if she jumped, and then being in the hospital for six months?

16:28

[00 16:30.699 – 00:16:32.779] Was that enough for her to quit?

16:31

[00 16:32.779 – 00:16:38.259] No, it was not, of course, because, um, she still had a little lower to go.

16:36

[00 16:38.259 – 00:16:45.559] Now, 1935, what else in the world could be happening in 1935?

16:40

[00 16:45.559 – 00:16:53.239] While Marty's in the hospital, we know in 1935, that is when Bill Wilson carried a message of hope to Dr.

16:46

[00 16:53.239 – 00:16:53.899] Bob.

16:47

[00 16:53.899 – 00:16:59.499] For those of you that are a little newer, B- Bill and Lois Wilson lived in Brooklyn, New York, and Dr.

16:54

[00 16:59.499 – 00:17:02.419] Bob and Anne Smith lived in Akron, Ohio.

16:57

[00 17:02.419 – 00:17:06.359] Bill and Bob are the co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous.

17:00

[00 17:06.359 – 00:17:11.579] So again, Marty's over in England, and this is starting to happen, right?

17:04

[00 17:11.579 – 00:17:14.459] So Marty, you know, suffered greatly.

17:06

[00 17:14.459 – 00:17:17.139] She got out of the hospital, and she continued drinking.

17:10

[00 17:17.139 – 00:17:22.899] She would go to this big park in London called Hyde Park, and you can still rent chairs there today.

17:17

[00 17:22.899 – 00:17:26.459] And she would rent a chair and sit there all day drinking.

17:21

[00 17:26.459 – 00:17:36.479] And her, Barbara, who's now, uh, they had broken up wisely, and, uh, Barbara would come out and see her all the time and say, "You've gotta quit drinking, you, or you

17:31

[00 17:36.479 – 00:17:41.119] need to go home." And she was so afraid that Marty was just gonna die there, you know.

17:37

[00 17:41.119 – 00:17:42.659] And so, uh, so...

17:39

[00 17:42.659 – 00:17:44.069] But Marty didn't have any money.

17:41

[00 17:44.069 – 00:17:45.419] Her family didn't have any money.

17:43

[00 17:45.419 – 00:17:46.899] Marty didn't have any income.

17:45

[00 17:46.899 – 00:17:56.459] So those friends of hers that she used to party with, they gathered their money together, and they got Marty a ticket to come home on the Queen Mary, right?

17:55

[00 17:56.459 – 00:18:05.049] So really, um, it's, uh, that would've been such a thrilling experience to, this would've been, like, one of the maiden voyages.

18:02

[00 18:05.049 – 00:18:07.839] I mean, that was very early on for the Queen Mary.

18:06

[00 18:07.839 – 00:18:09.359] It must have just been gorgeous.

18:08

[00 18:09.359 – 00:18:17.039] But what Marty says, it's sh- is that she remembers virtually nothing, because she was in a blackout the entire time.

18:15

[00 18:17.039 – 00:18:20.139] Now, her mother and sister met her at the docks in New York.

18:20

[00 18:20.139 – 00:18:21.399] They were very excited.

18:21

[00 18:21.399 – 00:18:27.278] You know, Marty was the eldest, and I think in their mind they thought she was probably doing much better than she was.

18:29

[00 18:27.278 – 00:18:37.329] Um, you know, and so they thought, "Wow, that's our Marty out there in Europe being a great success." But every, uh, every single person had, had come off the boat, and

18:39

[00 18:37.329 – 00:18:44.979] Marty was the last person taken off the boat, and she was carried down the ramp on a stretcher, too drunk to walk.

18:47

[00 18:44.979 – 00:18:48.349] That was Marty's great homecoming to the United States.

18:50

[00 18:48.349 – 00:18:50.619] Now, she very much wanted to get help.

18:53

[00 18:50.619 – 00:18:52.419] She went to different doctors.

18:55

[00 18:52.419 – 00:18:57.319] Um, it's recorded that one of the doctors suggested that maybe she had a tropical disease.

19:00

[00 18:57.319 – 00:19:01.199] That's maybe what was contributing to her, uh, unusual behavior.

19:03

[00 19:01.199 – 00:19:02.499] But she would go and go.

19:06

[00 19:02.499 – 00:19:06.199] Eventually, she, um, ended up in Bellevue Hospital.

19:09

[00 19:06.199 – 00:19:11.979] Now, um, she, uh, again, wanted to go there, but she had no money.

19:13

[00 19:11.979 – 00:19:16.789] She was admitted as a charity case, and, uh, she stayed there for six months.

19:18

[00 19:16.789 – 00:19:23.359] For those of you know, familiar with New York City, Bellevue is a, um, you know, it's a pretty intense place to go.

19:26

[00 19:23.359 – 00:19:31.359] And I often think about the AA promises about no matter how far down the scale we have gone, we'll see how our experience can benefit others.

19:35

[00 19:31.359 – 00:19:36.959] And I think Marty Mann really was a fantastic, um, example of that.

19:39

[00 19:36.959 – 00:19:46.299] She never shied away of talking about her, her experiences in the asylums or her experience in e- you know, the, really her, and everything she'd gone through.

19:48

[00 19:46.299 – 00:19:49.099] Because, again, how that can benefit others.

19:51

[00 19:49.099 – 00:19:55.099] And now, even though at the end of six months, you know, the doctor said, "Well, I think we've done everything we can for you.

19:59

[00 19:55.099 – 00:19:58.779] Would you like to go home?" And Marty said, "No, I don't wanna go home.

20:04

[00 19:58.779 – 00:20:00.019] I don't know what's wrong.

20:06

[00 20:00.019 – 00:20:02.369] I don't understand what my problem is.

20:09

[00 20:02.369 – 00:20:03.099] I'm afraid.

20:10

[00 20:03.099 – 00:20:06.579] I'm afraid to go back out there." And, you know, this is what Marty had.

20:15

[00 20:06.579 – 00:20:09.679] Marty had the gift of desperation, right?

20:17

[00 20:09.679 – 00:20:12.879] The gift of desperation that we s- hear about.

20:20

[00 20:12.879 – 00:20:14.619] So off she went to Blithewood.

20:23

[00 20:14.619 – 00:20:22.019] Now, Blithewood is in Connecticut, and she was transferred there in 1937, and she would remain there for 15 months.

20:29

[00 20:22.019 – 00:20:22.979] All right?

20:30

[00 20:22.979 – 00:20:27.359] So now some of you will recognize the name on this advertisement.

20:34

[00 20:27.359 – 00:20:28.939] I have to thank Mike F.

20:36

[00 20:28.939 – 00:20:32.259] of Recovery Collectibles for sharing this image with me.

20:39

[00 20:32.259 – 00:20:33.779] It's an advertisement.

20:40

[00 20:33.779 – 00:20:36.039] Uh, and it says Harry M.

20:43

[00 20:36.039 – 00:20:37.239] Thibault, MD.

20:43

[00 20:37.239 – 00:20:46.649] For those of you that are not familiar, Harry Thibault would go on to become a great friend of Alcoholics Anonymous, and he would even become Bill Wilson's doctor when Bill was suffering from-

20:55

[00 20:46.865 – 00:20:47.535] depression.

20:55

[00 20:47.535 – 00:20:57.555] Uh, and Marty is quoted as saying, "When I entered a sanitarium for a prolonged and intensive psychiatric treatment, I was convinced that I was having a serious

21:04

[00 20:57.555 – 00:21:00.425] mental breakdown." Now, Dr.

21:06

[00 21:00.425 – 00:21:03.135] Thiebaut really seems like a lovely person.

21:08

[00 21:03.135 – 00:21:06.355] Um, he, um, okay, he received...

21:11

[00 21:06.355 – 00:21:07.695] A- and it's just so interesting.

21:13

[00 21:07.695 – 00:21:17.895] You know, sometimes in Akron they'll talk about these slender threads or golden threads, like these threads that tie us all together, where you just think, "Oh my gosh, what if this hadn't happened?"

21:24

[00 21:17.895 – 00:21:18.635] You know, what if Dr.

21:26

[00 21:18.635 – 00:21:24.375] Thiebaut had not received this, uh, pre-publication copy of the AA Big Book, right?

21:31

[00 21:24.375 – 00:21:33.885] And you see where I've circled, you see where it's sort of typewritten, it says Alcoholics Anonymous on the top, and then the lower circle says, "Published by Works Publishing Company," right?

21:41

[00 21:33.885 – 00:21:34.905] Newark, New Jersey.

21:42

[00 21:34.905 – 00:21:39.115] And we know, you know, that's Bill Wilson, and we know that's Hank Parkhurst.

21:47

[00 21:39.115 – 00:21:41.005] And, uh, and but they sent it out.

21:50

[00 21:41.005 – 00:21:51.075] They sent out pre-publication copies, from my understanding, to doctors and rabbis and priests and ministers and psychiatrists, all different types of people

21:58

[00 21:51.075 – 00:21:58.595] that they thought might give them feedback or, you know, if they're, if they're going to object, they would rather know the- if they objected beforehand than later.

22:07

[00 21:58.595 – 00:21:59.325] So Dr.

22:08

[00 21:59.325 – 00:22:01.595] Thiebaut read it as a professional courtesy.

22:10

[00 22:01.595 – 00:22:03.495] He read it and thought, "Well, you know what?

22:13

[00 22:03.495 – 00:22:04.295] I have a patient.

22:15

[00 22:04.295 – 00:22:07.455] Maybe she would benefit from reading it, too." All right?

22:18

[00 22:07.455 – 00:22:16.315] So, um, the, Bill Wilson describes this in his Grapevine, um, uh, article that he wrote in memory of Dr.

22:25

[00 22:16.315 – 00:22:16.995] Harry M.

22:26

[00 22:16.995 – 00:22:17.735] Thiebaut, right?

22:27

[00 22:17.735 – 00:22:20.585] So this is The Grapevine in 1966.

22:29

[00 22:20.585 – 00:22:26.085] And again, this is the kind of thing that I, I was able to pull up simply by getting a digital subscription.

22:36

[00 22:26.085 – 00:22:28.535] Um, so I'm gonna read it.

22:39

[00 22:28.535 – 00:22:35.175] And, uh, what he's referring to, he says this pair, he's referring to Marty Mann as well as a male patient named Granny.

22:46

[00 22:35.175 – 00:22:36.615] Okay, so that's who he's talking about.

22:49

[00 22:36.615 – 00:22:39.935] Says, "At first, the group made little impression on this pair.

22:53

[00 22:39.935 – 00:22:47.255] Indeed, its heavy larding with the word God so angered Marty that she threw it out her window.

22:59

[00 22:47.255 – 00:22:56.095] It flounced off the grounds of the swank sanitarium where she was, and she proceeded to tie on a big bender." Now, in the...

23:07

[00 22:56.095 – 00:23:03.234] If you're ever in a trivia contest, you might like to know that Granny would later go on to marry Marty's sister, Chris.

23:14

[00 23:03.234 – 00:23:07.995] And there's a lot of that, a lot of that, those kind of shenanigans going on back then.

23:20

[00 23:07.995 – 00:23:09.875] But the other thing I want to say about Dr.

23:24

[00 23:09.875 – 00:23:20.035] Thiebaut is that, uh, I believe it's been in audio recordings, I heard Marty talk about how she would complain about the book and he would essentially sort of like agree with her

23:34

[00 23:20.035 – 00:23:22.755] or be very sympathetic and be like, "Well, you know what?

23:38

[00 23:22.755 – 00:23:24.015] Read the next chapter.

23:40

[00 23:24.015 – 00:23:28.735] Let me know what you think about that." And then she'd read the next chapter and she'd be like, "I don't know.

23:47

[00 23:28.735 – 00:23:30.935] I don't like this," or this or that.

23:50

[00 23:30.935 – 00:23:35.615] And he'd, like, listen, very understanding, very sympathetic, and be like, "Go ahead.

23:54

[00 23:35.615 – 00:23:45.785] Read the next chapter, just out of curiosity." And, and she says that before she attended her first AA meeting, she had read the enti- the, the Big Book three times.

24:04

[00 23:45.785 – 00:23:47.925] She had read it, really thanks to Dr.

24:07

[00 23:47.925 – 00:23:49.085] Thiebaut.

24:08

[00 23:49.085 – 00:23:59.595] Another kind of fun fact is that, you know, Marty would go on to write three books, not, not AA-related, but books about alcoholism, uh, related to the National Council on Alcoholism.

24:18

[00 23:59.595 – 00:24:02.835] And her second book she would dedicate to Dr.

24:22

[00 24:02.835 – 00:24:04.015] Harry Thiebaut.

24:22

[00 24:04.015 – 00:24:06.615] So I find that very moving.

24:25

[00 24:06.615 – 00:24:08.535] It's sort of a full circle moment there.

24:28

[00 24:08.535 – 00:24:10.575] So very...

24:28

[00 24:10.575 – 00:24:19.435] We're gonna hear an audio recording now of Marty describing her first AA meeting, which was held at Bill and Lois' home at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn.

24:37

[00 24:19.435 – 00:24:25.335] Of course, I only went up, like, two steps because that is a private residence, so do not ever ring the doorbell.

24:45

[00 24:25.335 – 00:24:29.955] And, um, I just went there 'cause you just think, Bill Wilson walked up those steps.

24:50

[00 24:29.955 – 00:24:36.195] Lois Wilson, Marty Mann, other, many of the New York first 100, they went to that meeting.

24:55

[00 24:36.195 – 00:24:44.835] The other thing that I think's very exciting is at that time, April 11th, 1939, there were only two AA meetings in the world.

25:03

[00 24:44.835 – 00:24:50.435] One was in Akron, Ohio, and one was in Brooklyn at the home of Bill and Lois.

25:09

[00 24:50.435 – 00:24:54.675] Uh, a few months later, there'd be meetings in Cleveland, Ohio.

25:12

[00 24:54.675 – 00:24:57.595] But on this date, there were only two.

25:15

[00 24:57.595 – 00:25:01.275] And how special it was that Marty was able to find her way there.

25:20

[00 25:01.275 – 00:25:03.415] So I'm gonna play the audio recording right now.

25:23

[00 25:03.415 – 00:25:14.895] We went on the subway and met a couple of other people on the subway that were going, too, over to Brooklyn, and

25:31

[00 25:14.895 – 00:25:19.095] they told me afterwards I was the most wild-eyed looking dame they'd ever seen.

25:36

[00 25:19.095 – 00:25:20.515] Well, I was.

25:37

[00 25:20.515 – 00:25:21.875] I was scared witless.

25:38

[00 25:21.875 – 00:25:26.235] I'd had a very nice dinner with three people.

25:42

[00 25:26.235 – 00:25:34.755] I could manage that, but I didn't know how many people were gonna be where we were going or, again, what they were gonna be like.

25:50

[00 25:34.755 – 00:25:42.515] And we got to this house in Brooklyn, and we went in, and it looked to me like there were dozens and dozens and dozens of people there.

25:59

[00 25:42.515 – 00:25:44.975] There weren't really that many.

26:01

[00 25:44.975 – 00:25:46.555] There weren't that many of us then.

26:04

[00 25:46.555 – 00:25:50.655] But I went upstairs to leave my coat, and I didn't come down.

26:08

[00 25:50.655 – 00:26:00.795] I don't know how long I thought I'd get away with it, but you know, a very nice woman came upstairs, and

26:15

[00 26:00.795 – 00:26:04.515] she put her arms around me and she said, "We're all waiting for you downstairs.

26:21

[00 26:04.515 – 00:26:05.715] We want you there.

26:22

[00 26:05.715 – 00:26:15.775] My name is Lois." And so I've always kind of felt ever since that Lois was as much my

26:28

[00 26:15.775 – 00:26:17.795] sponsor as Bill.

26:30

[00 26:17.795 – 00:26:23.515] To me, these audio recordings of Marty are just pure gold.

26:33

[00 26:23.515 – 00:26:27.635] And really, just like they, not just Marty, but all of these amazing speakers that we have.

26:39

[00 26:27.635 – 00:26:31.515] And you know, without people protecting these audios...

26:42

[00 26:31.515 – 00:26:35.915] And I mean, I don't mean to give a pitch for Recovery Speakers right this second, but it's just how I feel.

26:49

[00 26:35.915 – 00:26:37.655] You know, there's nothing...

26:51

[00 26:37.655 – 00:26:39.335] I could talk all day and all night.

26:54

[00 26:39.335 – 00:26:42.775] There's nothing better than hearing Marty Mann's voice directly.

26:57

[00 26:42.775 – 00:26:45.935] So again, I thank God for archivists.

26:59

[00 26:45.935 – 00:26:52.155] I thank God for people that protect audios, like Lois Wilson's diary, the letters at Stepping Stones.

27:05

[00 26:52.155 – 00:26:53.744] I mean, what a blessing.

27:07

[00 26:53.744 – 00:26:57.415] So in this audio, we learn a couple things.

27:10

[00 26:57.415 – 00:27:01.335] One, we learn that Bill Wilson was Marty Mann's sponsor.

27:14

[00 27:01.335 – 00:27:01.595] Okay?

27:14

[00 27:01.595 – 00:27:03.695] You can't get much more insider than that.

27:17

[00 27:03.695 – 00:27:09.055] Bill Wilson was her sponsor, and he remained her sponsor the rest of his life.

27:22

[00 27:09.055 – 00:27:10.155] All right?

27:23

[00 27:10.155 – 00:27:20.315] But we also learn that Marty felt and really credited Lois with also being a sponsor to her for the kindness she showed from the ve- that very first meeting.

27:33

[00 27:20.315 – 00:27:27.685] Another interesting thing is that Marty remained at Blythedale, the sanitarium, for six months, even after she went to that AA meeting.

27:40

[00 27:27.685 – 00:27:31.795] It's not like she just arrived in AA and said, "Oh, I'm fine." No.

27:45

[00 27:31.795 – 00:27:36.515] She stayed at Blythedale for six months, and Bill and Lois used to visit her there.

27:50

[00 27:36.515 – 00:27:37.575] Can you imagine?

27:52

[00 27:37.575 – 00:27:38.535] They lived in New York.

27:54

[00 27:38.535 – 00:27:42.195] They would go over to Connecticut, and they would visit her there.

27:58

[00 27:42.195 – 00:27:42.285] Bill-

27:58

[00 27:42.431 – 00:27:50.671] Bill Wilson very much want- m- very much wanted women to be s- he wanted everyone to be successful, including women, right?

28:06

[00 27:50.671 – 00:27:53.071] And, uh, I'm so happy about that.

28:08

[00 27:53.071 – 00:27:55.611] Okay, now this is a really neat letter.

28:11

[00 27:55.611 – 00:27:57.350] This was found at Stepping Stones.

28:13

[00 27:57.350 – 00:28:00.231] It was written by Virginia MC.

28:15

[00 28:00.231 – 00:28:03.531] Now she, I believe, is a wife of an alcoholic.

28:19

[00 28:03.531 – 00:28:09.391] This letter was written in 1960, and what she is, she's reminiscing w- uh, with Bill Wilson.

28:24

[00 28:09.391 – 00:28:19.411] So it's a letter to Bill and she says, "You asked me if I would be willing to go up to a sanitarium in Connecticut and get a young woman alcoholic who needed

28:35

[00 28:19.411 – 00:28:19.701] help.

28:36

[00 28:19.701 – 00:28:29.351] She needed to get into a private home, away from the institutional influence of the San for a while." And by San, they mean sanitarium.

28:44

[00 28:29.351 – 00:28:34.101] "I went up to get Marty Mann to bring her home for a few days with us.

28:50

[00 28:34.101 – 00:28:35.721] Do you remember this, Bill?

28:51

[00 28:35.721 – 00:28:37.451] What an experience.

28:53

[00 28:37.451 – 00:28:39.890] I had never been to a San.

28:55

[00 28:39.890 – 00:28:49.891] I will never forget my first sighting of Marty, pacing the floor in such a state of utter utterness, a state which scared me so badly

29:04

[00 28:49.891 – 00:28:51.651] I could hardly move or talk.

29:06

[00 28:51.651 – 00:29:01.771] She was not dressed and I said, 'Are you ready to come with me?' She said, 'What should I wear?' Anyway, I finally got some clothes on her and got her home.

29:17

[00 29:01.771 – 00:29:06.191] The impact of that experience will never leave me, ever.

29:21

[00 29:06.191 – 00:29:16.571] However, the next day, I got her up to Ray Campbell at Carmel and he took over, and I never have seen such a miracle as the change that came over Marty.

29:31

[00 29:16.571 – 00:29:18.371] I have seen so many...

29:33

[00 29:18.371 – 00:29:27.471] I, I, I have seen so many miracles in AA that I should be hardened to them, but I'm still just as bowled over by them now as ever.

29:42

[00 29:27.471 – 00:29:36.511] Marty stayed with us for five days." Ah, I love this letter, and I also love that she mentions Ray Campbell.

29:49

[00 29:36.511 – 00:29:38.131] Well, who is Ray Campbell?

29:51

[00 29:38.131 – 00:29:46.091] Well, very briefly, Ray Campbell is the artist who drew the cover of the Circus cover, the, our first edition Big Book cover.

29:59

[00 29:46.091 – 00:29:53.350] He also did a great, uh, cover that was not used that's of a man, uh, striding away from a bottle.

30:06

[00 29:53.350 – 00:29:59.891] That was Ray Campbell also, and then there's a little tiny man in the bottle trying to get out, which always is great.

30:13

[00 29:59.891 – 00:30:07.451] The other thing is Ray Campbell's also the author, first edition Big Book author of a story called An Artist's Concept.

30:20

[00 30:07.451 – 00:30:14.211] So what we learn in this letter is that Ray Campbell was of great service to Marty and he really helped her a great deal.

30:29

[00 30:14.211 – 00:30:16.591] So I think that's pretty neat.

30:31

[00 30:16.591 – 00:30:18.571] You know, every letter counts.

30:33

[00 30:18.571 – 00:30:22.231] You know, every single clue gets put together.

30:36

[00 30:22.231 – 00:30:23.751] So okay.

30:37

[00 30:23.751 – 00:30:31.751] Now, um, I did go to Blythedale, and one of the few things that they ha- have still at Blythedale is the chapel.

30:44

[00 30:31.751 – 00:30:37.051] Uh, like the housing areas, the hospital areas, pretty much gone, but, um...

30:49

[00 30:37.051 – 00:30:39.611] I mean, you see some vague references, but no buildings.

30:52

[00 30:39.611 – 00:30:49.761] But what I did was I, I live in San Francisco, California, so I, you know, config- tried to f- You know, I figured out that this chapel is on the property of a c- modern-day church,

31:04

[00 30:49.761 – 00:30:52.441] and they, you know, just have this on their property.

31:08

[00 30:52.441 – 00:30:57.571] So I contacted the modern-day minister and said, "Hi, my name is Miley," blah, blah, blah.

31:13

[00 30:57.571 – 00:30:59.131] "I'd like to come out to see...

31:15

[00 30:59.131 – 00:31:01.191] I'd love to see the inside of that chapel.

31:19

[00 31:01.191 – 00:31:02.931] I'm very interested," blah, blah, blah.

31:21

[00 31:02.931 – 00:31:04.091] So I did that.

31:22

[00 31:04.091 – 00:31:05.291] He was so nice.

31:24

[00 31:05.291 – 00:31:07.711] He was so nice, and I went with Sally.

31:27

[00 31:07.711 – 00:31:11.551] Some of you know, um, Sally, who's a director at Stepping Stones.

31:31

[00 31:11.551 – 00:31:16.011] And b- I'm a big baby, so I'm, I can't drive in snow, so Sally drove us.

31:37

[00 31:16.011 – 00:31:17.931] This was December of 2021.

31:39

[00 31:17.931 – 00:31:21.781] So she drove us in snow to get there, and it was really wonderful.

31:43

[00 31:21.781 – 00:31:25.011] And the man was so lovely, the minister, and he show...

31:47

[00 31:25.011 – 00:31:38.991] We, we got to walk upstairs, and he sa- said, "Would you like to ring the bell?" Okay,

31:53

[00 31:38.991 – 00:31:41.251] that, that's another top 10 moment.

31:55

[00 31:41.251 – 00:31:43.091] I was like, "Are you kidding?

31:57

[00 31:43.091 – 00:31:48.911] I would love to ring the bell." Okay, here's something else from my, our friend Mike F.

32:03

[00 31:48.911 – 00:31:50.211] here, Recovery Collectibles.

32:04

[00 31:50.211 – 00:31:56.951] So this is a letter that Mike shared with me, and you see it's written by Marty.

32:10

[00 31:56.951 – 00:31:59.950] She was staying at Blythedale in Greenwich, Connecticut.

32:13

[00 31:59.950 – 00:32:03.421] It's dated June 16th, 1939, and it says, "Dear Mr.

32:16

[00 32:03.421 – 00:32:06.231] Amos, I am enclosing my check for $5.

32:18

[00 32:06.231 – 00:32:12.051] This is my pledge towards Bill Wilson's salary covering June 15 to July 15.

32:23

[00 32:12.051 – 00:32:22.191] Yours sincerely, Marty Mann." Now, many people agree that salary probably isn't, like, the word we would use as we know it today, but it's more that this is how early AAs

32:33

[00 32:22.191 – 00:32:25.811] chipped in because they did not want Bill Wilson to get a job.

32:37

[00 32:25.811 – 00:32:29.151] They wanted Bill to get the Big Book out there in the world.

32:42

[00 32:29.151 – 00:32:36.401] So you know, of course, Lois Wilson's working day, you know, all through this whole lifetime, Lois is going to work.

32:49

[00 32:36.401 – 00:32:37.711] But they did, they did...

32:51

[00 32:37.711 – 00:32:40.151] A- early AA did not want Bill to do it.

32:54

[00 32:40.151 – 00:32:42.911] They, so, um, they would chip in here and there.

32:58

[00 32:42.911 – 00:32:50.631] And, and I, I think it's very poignant that even while Marty's at Blythedale she goes, "I want to give $5," so how wonderful that that's written down.

33:07

[00 32:50.631 – 00:32:55.991] Now the major factor in Marty's acceptance by the men was Bill Wilson's attitude.

33:11

[00 32:55.991 – 00:32:58.911] He and Marty hit it off immediately.

33:14

[00 32:58.911 – 00:33:07.131] They were cut from the same piece of cloth, both of them visionary, charismatic, open-minded, and entrepreneurial.

33:20

[00 33:07.131 – 00:33:08.491] That's from the biography.

33:21

[00 33:08.491 – 00:33:16.951] Now, um, this is another terrific audio recording of Marty, and I think it's really speaks to Marty being a visionary.

33:28

[00 33:16.951 – 00:33:17.631] Here you go.

33:29

[00 33:17.631 – 00:33:28.051] Wouldn't it be wonderful someday if we could go all across the country,

33:34

[00 33:28.051 – 00:33:32.991] and in every big city like Cleveland, we could find an AA group?

33:38

[00 33:32.991 – 00:33:36.271] And everybody roared with laughter.

33:40

[00 33:36.271 – 00:33:46.311] Most ridiculous idea in 1939, and now

33:42

[00 33:46.311 – 00:33:47.371] look at the damn thing.

33:44

[00 33:47.371 – 00:33:50.891] But it's right.

33:45

[00 33:50.891 – 00:33:54.751] I mean, what kind of person has that kind of vision?

33:49

[00 33:54.751 – 00:33:58.171] I mean, a person like Bill Wilson, a person like Marty Mann.

33:53

[00 33:58.171 – 00:34:02.731] And I think there's a lovely, lovely quote by Smitty, who's Dr.

33:57

[00 34:02.731 – 00:34:12.961] Bob's son, and from what I understand, Smitty said, "You know, if it was up to Bill Wilson, uh, AA would've been

34:05

[00 34:12.961 – 00:34:13.731] franchised.

34:05

[00 34:13.731 – 00:34:15.311] It would've been on every corner.

34:08

[00 34:15.311 – 00:34:24.091] It would've been, you know, this and that." He goes, "But if it was up to my father, it would have never left Akron." Right?

34:16

[00 34:24.091 – 00:34:27.151] So it really shows how it really took the two of them.

34:20

[00 34:27.151 – 00:34:28.601] They were perfectly matched.

34:22

[00 34:28.601 – 00:34:31.931] It was like destiny, that you get this guy like Bill W.

34:26

[00 34:31.931 – 00:34:34.971] who's just out there, such, so good at selling, and Dr.

34:29

[00 34:34.971 – 00:34:37.881] Bob, who's much more, you know, focused-

34:32

[00 34:38.057 – 00:34:40.517] on the, right now, right here.

34:34

[00 34:40.517 – 00:34:42.047] Let's do this right here.

34:36

[00 34:42.047 – 00:34:47.967] And I just love that, that Smitty kind of had the open heart to be able to speak about both of them in that way.

34:44

[00 34:47.967 – 00:34:55.327] So anyway, but Marti was also very much like Bill, saying, "Yeah, there, there's one meeting in Akron and one meeting in Brooklyn.

34:52

[00 34:55.327 – 00:34:59.467] Why not just take it across the United States?" So now here's a...

34:56

[00 34:59.467 – 00:35:03.947] This was really a big moment for AA, as well as a big moment for Marti.

35:02

[00 35:03.947 – 00:35:07.746] So Saturday Evening Post came out in 1941.

35:04

[00 35:07.746 – 00:35:17.887] Oh, by the way, I know many of you are, are very amazing historians, but I, I, I do like to just sort of maybe over explain things a little bit just in case there's

35:16

[00 35:17.887 – 00:35:22.367] newcomers here tonight or people who might be listening to this audio tape in the future.

35:21

[00 35:22.367 – 00:35:32.457] So forgive me if you, if I feel like s- if it feels like I'm saying things that maybe are obvious, but I, I do want to do that on purpose just so that we all can kind of

35:34

[00 35:32.457 – 00:35:33.067] understand.

35:34

[00 35:33.067 – 00:35:43.137] So the Saturday Evening Post was a really important part of our history, uh, because that's when America at a, on a very large level learned about AA.

35:43

[00 35:43.137 – 00:35:53.167] Uh, there's a lot to say about the author of the article and how it all came to be, but o- one thing I want to emphasize for tonight is that it took me years

35:55

[00 35:53.167 – 00:36:00.007] to realize that this, the story of the woman who goes by Sarah Martin in the story is actually Marti Mann.

36:02

[00 36:00.007 – 00:36:01.507] It was just a pseudonym.

36:04

[00 36:01.507 – 00:36:05.767] But it took me a while to figure out, so keep coming back.

36:08

[00 36:05.767 – 00:36:06.807] That's the message here.

36:10

[00 36:06.807 – 00:36:08.347] You know, and I've been giving...

36:12

[00 36:08.347 – 00:36:13.967] You know, I've been studying Marti Mann for around seven years, I'd say, and I am still learning things.

36:18

[00 36:13.967 – 00:36:17.047] Every single time I spend some time on it, I just...

36:22

[00 36:17.047 – 00:36:20.927] There is so much to learn about all of our AA history.

36:26

[00 36:20.927 – 00:36:31.507] Uh, so anyway, what, the, the reason this impacted Marti, besides being a pseudonym, was that she also saw the response and went, "Wow, public education.

36:35

[00 36:31.507 – 00:36:33.667] That's where it's at," right?

36:37

[00 36:33.667 – 00:36:34.987] Public education.

36:38

[00 36:34.987 – 00:36:41.407] And the wheels start turning, and I think this is when she first started to think about something like the National Council on Alcoholism.

36:46

[00 36:41.407 – 00:36:49.907] Now on a more personal level, Marti fell in love with a woman named Priscilla, and they were romantic partners for 40 years.

36:53

[00 36:49.907 – 00:36:54.067] This is a picture of them by Irving Penn, a very famous photographer.

36:57

[00 36:54.067 – 00:37:00.597] He, I'm sure he must have known them through Vogue Magazine w- um, because that's where, uh, Priscilla worked.

37:04

[00 37:00.597 – 00:37:11.027] Now this photo was taken in Cherry Grove, which is, um, Fire Island is, um, off Long Island, and there's two s- towns,

37:11

[00 37:11.027 – 00:37:11.857] I'm not sure if they're...

37:13

[00 37:11.857 – 00:37:13.227] I don't even know if they're called towns.

37:16

[00 37:13.227 – 00:37:21.687] There's two areas of Fire Island, Cherry Grove and The Pines, that are essen- oh, 99% gay.

37:21

[00 37:21.687 – 00:37:25.307] Very gay, and they have been since the 1930s.

37:24

[00 37:25.307 – 00:37:29.147] And people from Broadway would vacation there, all sorts of people.

37:28

[00 37:29.147 – 00:37:32.907] People in the know would go there, and there was these two towns.

37:33

[00 37:32.907 – 00:37:36.947] And it's very interesting to learn how that even all happened, but...

37:37

[00 37:36.947 – 00:37:47.047] So Cherry Grove in the 1930s and '40s was visited by famous artists such as Tennessee Williams, Truman Capote, Patricia Highsmith, Paul

37:44

[00 37:47.047 – 00:37:51.787] and Jane Bowles, Carson McCullers, Janet Flanner, and W.H.

37:48

[00 37:51.787 – 00:37:52.367] Auden.

37:48

[00 37:52.367 – 00:38:01.727] Now Marti and Priscilla owned a cottage and two adjacent properties on Cherry Grove for 11 years, and that's something I found out at Syracuse.

37:56

[00 38:01.727 – 00:38:04.487] I actually found their real estate paperwork.

37:59

[00 38:04.487 – 00:38:05.267] And it's interesting.

38:00

[00 38:05.267 – 00:38:11.527] It was owned in both their names and, um, and I was able to, uh, to figure that out.

38:07

[00 38:11.527 – 00:38:14.527] Now, um, in fact, this i- this is the properties.

38:10

[00 38:14.527 – 00:38:15.107] I went there.

38:11

[00 38:15.107 – 00:38:17.767] They had 109, 108, 109, 110.

38:12

[00 38:17.767 – 00:38:21.627] So you know me, I'm out there looking over the fence and everything.

38:17

[00 38:21.627 – 00:38:24.887] But it was pretty neat to see that that was actually their properties.

38:21

[00 38:24.887 – 00:38:32.767] Now more importantly, Marti helped to start the very first Cherry Grove AA group, and it continues to meet in the firehouse today.

38:29

[00 38:32.767 – 00:38:37.567] Now I've been wanting to go to Cherry Grove forever, but I'm again on the West Coast.

38:34

[00 38:37.567 – 00:38:41.107] So I went, and my wife was in London, 'cause that's where...

38:38

[00 38:41.107 – 00:38:41.857] She's from England.

38:40

[00 38:41.857 – 00:38:43.527] So I was by myself.

38:42

[00 38:43.527 – 00:38:44.487] So I was proud of myself.

38:44

[00 38:44.487 – 00:38:54.187] I went by myself this, earlier this year, and it's a little bit of a schlep, especially, like me, you not being, you know, not really knowing my way around the East Coast.

38:55

[00 38:54.187 – 00:39:04.446] But I, uh, you, like from Manhattan, you take like a subway, then you take a train, then you switch to another train, then you get on a shuttle, then you get on a ferry boat, then you arrive.

39:07

[00 39:04.446 – 00:39:08.167] So I did it, and I found the AA meetings right center.

39:11

[00 39:08.167 – 00:39:10.267] They have a 6:00 meeting every night.

39:14

[00 39:10.267 – 00:39:18.827] It was so much fun, and you'll be proud 'cause I, I told myself, "Maile, you cannot talk about Marti Mann too much." But I did.

39:22

[00 39:18.827 – 00:39:20.927] I only said like two or three sentences.

39:25

[00 39:20.927 – 00:39:22.357] So I was proud it was that.

39:28

[00 39:22.357 – 00:39:23.067] That was good.

39:29

[00 39:23.067 – 00:39:27.987] But that's like the cool little circle and triangle thing they have there, and they were so nice.

39:35

[00 39:27.987 – 00:39:31.167] They said, "Hey, you wanna go out for pizza afterwards?" So I did, and that was fun.

39:41

[00 39:31.167 – 00:39:33.127] The next morning I met some of them for breakfast.

39:44

[00 39:33.127 – 00:39:35.947] But it was really such hospitality.

39:46

[00 39:35.947 – 00:39:38.887] So anyway, if you're ever out there, definitely go to the meeting.

39:50

[00 39:38.887 – 00:39:43.427] So now this is Stepping Stones, historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson.

39:55

[00 39:43.427 – 00:39:44.307] I love it.

39:56

[00 39:44.307 – 00:39:46.247] I'm an ambassador for Stepping Stones.

39:58

[00 39:46.247 – 00:39:47.287] I'm an advisor.

40:00

[00 39:47.287 – 00:39:49.607] I am just a super big fan.

40:02

[00 39:49.607 – 00:39:53.087] And this is, um, they have things like a guest book.

40:06

[00 39:53.087 – 00:39:59.867] Now a guest book Bill and Lois would put out, what I imagine for special occasions, not for just anyone who dropped by.

40:13

[00 39:59.867 – 00:40:06.487] But what we see here is that Marti signed in, and we see that Priscilla signed in, and we see that they're living at the same address.

40:22

[00 40:06.487 – 00:40:08.927] So now little pieces of evidence coming together.

40:25

[00 40:08.927 – 00:40:14.967] Lois Wilson's diary tells us in 1942 that Marti and Priscilla came over that day.

40:30

[00 40:14.967 – 00:40:21.607] And, uh, that, this picture of Marti, that's taken on the screen porch that's in the back of the Stepping Stones.

40:37

[00 40:21.607 – 00:40:25.567] And if you have not been to Stepping Stones, I implore you to please go and visit.

40:43

[00 40:25.567 – 00:40:27.987] Pl- you make reservations ahead of time.

40:45

[00 40:27.987 – 00:40:30.807] You know, it's a, it's a little day trip from Manhattan.

40:49

[00 40:30.807 – 00:40:32.787] It is so magical.

40:50

[00 40:32.787 – 00:40:35.067] I guarantee you will cry no matter who you are.

40:54

[00 40:35.067 – 00:40:36.077] It is so moving.

40:56

[00 40:36.077 – 00:40:39.727] And it's, we have Lois Wilson to thank for that.

40:59

[00 40:39.727 – 00:40:40.967] She set it up.

41:01

[00 40:40.967 – 00:40:46.487] Um, uh, Lois outlived Bill by 17 years, and she knew that people were gonna wanna come to visit it like we do.

41:08

[00 40:46.487 – 00:40:48.747] So, uh, s- it's just all set up.

41:11

[00 40:48.747 – 00:40:52.626] It's just beautiful, and you can see where Bill wrote many of our most important books, so...

41:16

[00 40:52.626 – 00:40:57.647] Now k- take an eye, keep an eye on this lady right here.

41:21

[00 40:57.647 – 00:40:59.927] Her name is Countess Felicia G.

41:23

[00 40:59.927 – 00:41:01.587] Very wealthy lady.

41:24

[00 41:01.587 – 00:41:04.867] Her Big Book story is Stars Don't Fall.

41:27

[00 41:04.867 – 00:41:14.887] It's a really good story, and the reason I'm highlighting it today is because in her story it says, quote, "Priscilla, an AA who, like Marti,

41:36

[00 41:14.887 – 00:41:20.067] has become one of my greatest friends, decided that I was a stubborn case," unquote.

41:41

[00 41:20.067 – 00:41:21.847] Now think about it.

41:42

[00 41:21.847 – 00:41:26.307] Very few people have their names in the actual Big Book, right?

41:46

[00 41:26.307 – 00:41:31.207] Very few people, but there you see Marti and Priscilla, and it's a story about them living together.

41:52

[00 41:31.207 – 00:41:33.497] Now remember Countess 'cause we're gonna be hear-

41:55

[00 41:33.784 – 00:41:35.984] from her pretty soon when it comes to the Grapevine.

41:59

[00 41:35.984 – 00:41:40.824] But Marty was her sponsor, and she was a, a remarkable woman in her own right.

42:04

[00 41:40.824 – 00:41:42.864] Now, here's Priscilla.

42:05

[00 41:42.864 – 00:41:48.674] In the biography, it tells us Priscilla's star was about to rise in spectacular tandem to Marty's.

42:11

[00 41:48.674 – 00:41:56.024] So Priscilla was the art editor of Vogue Magazine for 25 years.

42:15

[00 41:56.024 – 00:41:59.644] That is such a big deal in the fashion world.

42:18

[00 41:59.644 – 00:42:05.804] I mean, that is very prestigious, and I can only imagine the pressure, but also the incredible excitement.

42:24

[00 42:05.804 – 00:42:09.274] When I went to Syracuse, I was able to actually hold this in my hands.

42:30

[00 42:09.274 – 00:42:12.083] Again, top 10 moment, very exciting.

42:31

[00 42:12.083 – 00:42:14.704] You know, they, one of these little Zephyr Auto-Dexes where you...

42:35

[00 42:14.704 – 00:42:22.694] I, I'm sure some of you or your parents or grandparents had it, where you roll, you roll it up and down and it pops open, and I could see all of her addresses.

42:46

[00 42:22.694 – 00:42:30.083] So for the purpose of this tonight, I just showing Priscilla's, where it says, "Copy Room at Vogue," and the night number, and this and that.

42:55

[00 42:30.083 – 00:42:31.984] So that's pretty neat.

42:56

[00 42:31.984 – 00:42:37.803] Now, in 1944, Marty founded the National Committee for the education on alcoholism.

43:01

[00 42:37.803 – 00:42:39.924] Marty's now 40 years old.

43:02

[00 42:39.924 – 00:42:41.424] I just love this picture of her.

43:05

[00 42:41.424 – 00:42:44.364] To, to me, she looks like a powerhouse right here.

43:08

[00 42:44.364 – 00:42:49.744] And, um, this is by Walter M., he was a, uh, very, very good friend of hers.

43:14

[00 42:49.744 – 00:42:52.244] Uh, b- uh, I spoke to his wife Debbie.

43:17

[00 42:52.244 – 00:42:57.134] She recently passed last year, and, uh, she had well over 60 years of sobriety.

43:22

[00 42:57.134 – 00:43:07.504] But anyway, he, M- Walter is, uh, quoted as saying, "Marty had a ego and a will the size of Mount Everest, but Marty's ego was without arrogance.

43:31

[00 43:07.504 – 00:43:16.184] She would drop everything to lend a hand to any alcoholic seeking her help." Now, um, yeah, she was a pistol.

43:38

[00 43:16.184 – 00:43:26.264] You know, I also spoke with, um, I wanna say Bill B., who wrote the book about, uh, uh, Lois and Bill, and, uh,

43:46

[00 43:26.264 – 00:43:28.944] he said that she swore quite a bit.

43:49

[00 43:28.944 – 00:43:37.964] Now, my friend Laurie D., who lives in Santa Fe, again, sober since 1967, said, "Marty would go to any length to help an alcoholic.

43:57

[00 43:37.964 – 00:43:40.864] Back in the day, you'd detox people on your couch.

44:00

[00 43:40.864 – 00:43:43.543] The treatment center was your couch.

44:02

[00 43:43.543 – 00:43:50.624] That was the era, and Marty would drop anything, because she knew the likelihood of our dying was incredible.

44:09

[00 43:50.624 – 00:43:55.624] Marty got into the trenches, and all of her social class stuff fell away.

44:13

[00 43:55.624 – 00:44:01.524] If there was a skid row person, they were as deserving of her time as a socialite.

44:19

[00 44:01.524 – 00:44:07.384] That was the passion, and that's what she meant when she talked about carrying the message," unquote.

44:25

[00 44:07.384 – 00:44:14.984] So in the name of the National Council on Alcoholism, Marty entered the world, right?

44:30

[00 44:14.984 – 00:44:16.844] And the, these were the kind of articles.

44:33

[00 44:16.844 – 00:44:23.664] There are literally thousands of articles about Marty Mann, and I can access them by using newspapers.com.

44:39

[00 44:23.664 – 00:44:28.304] And, uh, so, like, I just spoke at Richmond, Virginia, on Tuesday, oh, on Zoom.

44:44

[00 44:28.304 – 00:44:34.184] And so I, I was able to easily pull up, you know, five articles about Marty being in Richmond.

44:50

[00 44:34.184 – 00:44:40.864] You know, and, and sometimes I'm invited to speak at conferences, so, you know, I went to Kansas City, and I have articles about Kansas City.

44:59

[00 44:40.864 – 00:44:43.984] I've been to Dallas twice, articles about Dallas.

45:01

[00 44:43.984 – 00:44:46.784] I've been to South Carolina for their history conference.

45:05

[00 44:46.784 – 00:44:57.064] Again, every, uh, without fail, uh, I can always find articles about Marty Mann, because this is what she did starting in the 1940s,

45:12

[00 44:57.064 – 00:45:00.154] and she's carrying, you know, the thing, a message about...

45:16

[00 45:00.154 – 00:45:05.304] B- because it goes back to that Saturday Evening Post thing of the public education.

45:21

[00 45:05.304 – 00:45:15.324] And she was kind of a broken record, 'cause her whole thing was educating the public to diminish the stigma related to alcoholism, and that alcoholism is a disease and deserves to be

45:32

[00 45:15.324 – 00:45:18.344] treated, and that alcoholics are worthy of help.

45:35

[00 45:18.344 – 00:45:22.004] That's the message, over, and over, and over, and over.

45:38

[00 45:22.004 – 00:45:23.224] That's Marty's message.

45:39

[00 45:23.224 – 00:45:25.084] Now, this is kind of a neat article.

45:42

[00 45:25.084 – 00:45:29.124] It's from Greenville, South Carolina, 1944, and this is great.

45:45

[00 45:29.124 – 00:45:31.264] WCTU, which is what?

45:47

[00 45:31.264 – 00:45:41.524] Women's Christian Temperance Union, which was founded in 1874, and the, this, the headline says, uh, "WCTU Head Admits

45:53

[00 45:41.524 – 00:45:45.644] Alcoholism Is a Disease." Now, that's a really big deal.

45:56

[00 45:45.644 – 00:45:51.124] I mean, because really, the Temperance Union had been much more about it being a moral failing.

46:02

[00 45:51.124 – 00:45:56.384] But after they heard Marty talk probably a few hundred times, they said, "Okay, we're with you.

46:08

[00 45:56.384 – 00:45:59.744] It's a disease." That is amazing.

46:10

[00 45:59.744 – 00:46:02.844] I also learned that the WCTU still exists.

46:13

[00 46:02.844 – 00:46:04.544] I had no idea, but it does.

46:15

[00 46:04.544 – 00:46:05.504] It still exists.

46:17

[00 46:05.504 – 00:46:07.704] So the Grapevine.

46:18

[00 46:07.704 – 00:46:13.033] The Grapevine started in 1944, and guess who two of the k- co-founders were?

46:22

[00 46:13.033 – 00:46:15.064] Marty and Priscilla.

46:24

[00 46:15.064 – 00:46:17.964] Marty, Priscilla, and four others.

46:26

[00 46:17.964 – 00:46:21.094] Four other AAs co-founded The Grapevine magazine.

46:28

[00 46:21.094 – 00:46:22.734] What?

46:29

[00 46:22.734 – 00:46:23.844] That is amazing.

46:30

[00 46:23.844 – 00:46:34.004] And in this article actually, uh, by Felicia G., the Countess who I mentioned earlier, says, um, that it was in Marty and Priscilla's apartment that they discussed about it being a

46:40

[00 46:34.004 – 00:46:36.064] magazine devoted to AA and alcoholism.

46:43

[00 46:36.064 – 00:46:38.004] And guess who drew those grapes?

46:45

[00 46:38.004 – 00:46:41.344] It was Priscilla, because she was the art editor at Vogue.

46:49

[00 46:41.344 – 00:46:51.894] So you, you could see how lucky it was for AA that we had someone who worked at one of the most, really, frankly, important popular magazines in America, was now working

46:59

[00 46:51.894 – 00:46:52.744] at the Grapevine.

47:00

[00 46:52.744 – 00:46:54.364] That's pretty neat.

47:02

[00 46:54.364 – 00:47:00.604] So now Bill thought it was neat too, and he inscribed this book, again, shared by Mike F., thank you.

47:08

[00 47:00.604 – 00:47:08.644] And it says, uh, "Priscilla Peck, my treasured friend of AA, whose labor of love for us all will never be forgotten.

47:16

[00 47:08.644 – 00:47:09.224] Bill.

47:16

[00 47:09.224 – 00:47:13.404] Christmas 1944." Now, a few things about this.

47:19

[00 47:13.404 – 00:47:16.924] First of all, sadly, it has been entirely been forgotten.

47:22

[00 47:16.924 – 00:47:20.144] Priscilla Peck has been forgotten.

47:24

[00 47:20.144 – 00:47:30.144] But now all of you here tonight, I'm hoping to try and remember her and include her certainly in discussions of her, of, at, uh, at the very least of being, of one

47:35

[00 47:30.144 – 00:47:31.984] of the founders of The Grapevine magazine.

47:37

[00 47:31.984 – 00:47:37.584] Now, that photo on the left of Priscilla sitting there, that is one I found on eBay.

47:43

[00 47:37.584 – 00:47:41.184] You know I'm always on the hunt looking for things.

47:47

[00 47:41.184 – 00:47:46.184] And, uh, I found a whole stack of, of photos, a lot of them of Priscilla and Marty.

47:53

[00 47:46.184 – 00:47:49.884] And the f- person selling them didn't really know who was who.

47:57

[00 47:49.884 – 00:47:52.564] And, uh, so anyway, I was just being nice.

48:00

[00 47:52.564 – 00:47:53.704] I thought, "I can't afford it.

48:02

[00 47:53.704 – 00:47:54.644] I don't wanna...

48:03

[00 47:54.644 – 00:48:02.644] You know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna buy it." But I said, "Well, I'm just gonna be nice and tell him, um, you know, 'By the way, that's Priscilla Peck, that's Marty Mann.

48:14

[00 48:02.644 – 00:48:08.704] This is why they're important.'" I said, you know, "Just be a nice person and let them know what's what." Well, it turned out they never sold.

48:24

[00 48:08.704 – 00:48:10.034] No one wanted them, right?

48:26

[00 48:10.034 – 00:48:13.864] So then I contacted him again later, like, I don't know, four months later.

48:30

[00 48:13.864 – 00:48:16.504] I said, "Hey I see they're still available.

48:33

[00 48:16.504 – 00:48:26.654] What, can I buy all of them for X amount of money?" He goes, "Yeah, sure." So I did, and it was awesome, and it was really neat, and I'm happy to have them here, 'cause I think they're amazing

48:46

[00 48:26.654 – 00:48:27.603] photos.

48:47

[00 48:27.603 – 00:48:29.094] Uh, they're by a woman named Hailey Ear-

48:50

[00 48:29.294 – 00:48:29.594] scene.

48:50

[00 48:29.594 – 00:48:31.574] I believe she was also connected to Vogue.

48:53

[00 48:31.574 – 00:48:37.354] And then also along with the photos, and I've also had some books and things related to Marty.

48:59

[00 48:37.354 – 00:48:47.384] Anyway, it, I always thought I'd get ex- anyway, I realized no one's gonna come to my garage in San Francisco to look at them, so they've all been donated to Stepping Stones archives, because

49:10

[00 48:47.384 – 00:48:49.374] I know they take such great care of things.

49:14

[00 48:49.374 – 00:48:54.994] So if you ever do go to Stepping Stones, feel free to ask about the Marty Mann collection, and they'd be very happy to show you.

49:22

[00 48:54.994 – 00:49:00.414] So everything that I've ever owned related to Marty is at Stepping Stones in New York.

49:28

[00 49:00.414 – 00:49:05.154] Now, this is a big book, uh, and again, inscribed by Bill Wilson.

49:32

[00 49:05.154 – 00:49:13.154] Says, "Marty, dear, though I love you for many things, I'm thinking now what you put into Grapevine and what that is to mean to so many.

49:41

[00 49:13.154 – 00:49:18.034] Merry Christmas, Bill." So you see, such great affection and appreciation.

49:45

[00 49:18.034 – 00:49:20.334] Okay, now this is great.

49:47

[00 49:20.334 – 00:49:25.414] In May of 1946, in the early Grapevine, they would do book reviews, right?

49:51

[00 49:25.414 – 00:49:29.174] Book reviews, thinking, "Well, maybe these alcoholics need to keep busy," you know?

49:55

[00 49:29.174 – 00:49:31.754] And they were not even sobriety related books.

49:58

[00 49:31.754 – 00:49:35.634] They were just literally popular books like, "Hey, here's a best seller.

50:02

[00 49:35.634 – 00:49:40.794] Maybe you'd like to read a book," which I just think is very cute and sweet.

50:08

[00 49:40.794 – 00:49:44.624] So anyway, again, remember I said, remember Felicia G, the countess?

50:12

[00 49:44.624 – 00:49:46.574] She was a straight lady, but she wrote this.

50:15

[00 49:46.574 – 00:49:50.274] She wrote this book review, and it's a, the book is called Wasteland.

50:19

[00 49:50.274 – 00:49:52.754] It's by Jo- a woman named Jo Sinclair.

50:22

[00 49:52.754 – 00:49:54.514] That is Jo Sinclair on the right.

50:25

[00 49:54.514 – 00:49:56.874] Jo Sinclair is not her real name.

50:27

[00 49:56.874 – 00:49:58.694] Uh, it's a pseudonym.

50:29

[00 49:58.694 – 00:50:04.994] And, um, and this is an autographed copy I found, and I think that's at Stepping Stones also.

50:35

[00 50:04.994 – 00:50:15.114] And, um, anyway, what, what, what Count- the countess had to say was, "At last, you have a homosexual who is neither a villain nor a figure of fun,

50:44

[00 50:15.114 – 00:50:25.194] but a person who learns for herself that, quote, 'There's room in the world for me,' unquote." That is such

50:51

[00 50:25.194 – 00:50:28.774] a big idea for 1946, you know?

50:53

[00 50:28.774 – 00:50:36.134] That who is neither a villain nor a figure of fun, and that's in the AA Grapevine in 1946.

50:59

[00 50:36.134 – 00:50:39.734] Now, here's another fantastic, uh, headline.

51:02

[00 50:39.734 – 00:50:49.734] This came out January 1st of 1946, and it says, uh, "New York drinks 1945 out and 1946 in," but then they have this bit that

51:09

[00 50:49.734 – 00:50:54.174] says, "AA revel is bone dry." Okay, have a sip of water here.

51:14

[00 50:54.174 – 00:51:00.674] It says, "One big dry all-night party was that of Alcoholics Anonymous.

51:18

[00 51:00.674 – 00:51:07.054] The organization held a dance at its clubhouse, 405 West 41st Street.

51:21

[00 51:07.054 – 00:51:12.594] There was nothing to drink but coffee and Coke, but the former drinkers did a lot of eating.

51:27

[00 51:12.594 – 00:51:20.554] Supper was from 10:00 PM to 1:00 AM, and breakfast was from 3:00 AM to 8:00 AM." Okay, these people knew how to party.

51:34

[00 51:20.554 – 00:51:28.284] "750 persons danced to swing music," and boy, do they feel better than you and I this morning.

51:40

[00 51:28.284 – 00:51:30.114] But isn't that amazing?

51:41

[00 51:30.114 – 00:51:31.114] Isn't that great?

51:43

[00 51:31.114 – 00:51:37.554] I mean, you know, there's so much public education happening, even in something as simple as this.

51:48

[00 51:37.554 – 00:51:47.854] What I, really jumped out at me was the address of the clubhouse, and I bet it jumped out at a lot of other alcoholics to be like, oh, wow, there's a clubhouse, and here's the address

52:00

[00 51:47.914 – 00:51:49.374] if I have a problem with drinking.

52:03

[00 51:49.374 – 00:51:53.174] So the other thing I've learned over the years is that...

52:07

[00 51:53.174 – 00:52:02.094] and these things are always obvious in hindsight, but you know, that a map of 1940 is not the same as a map of 2025.

52:14

[00 52:02.094 – 00:52:03.374] So I found this map.

52:16

[00 52:03.374 – 00:52:06.054] It's actually of 1945 in New York City.

52:19

[00 52:06.054 – 00:52:08.914] I found the address, which no longer exists, sadly.

52:22

[00 52:08.914 – 00:52:13.993] And, and I noticed right away, that little circle's the clubhouse, but look at the big circle.

52:28

[00 52:13.993 – 00:52:16.493] That is Times Square, right?

52:30

[00 52:16.493 – 00:52:19.614] Talk about, I always say, location, location, location.

52:32

[00 52:19.614 – 00:52:29.714] What a fantastic place for there to be a AA clubhouse two blocks away, and this also is important in another talk I'm giving on the 13th that,

52:42

[00 52:29.714 – 00:52:31.714] um, is, I think, relevant.

52:43

[00 52:31.714 – 00:52:36.324] But I think that's pretty neat, and I love h- I love getting little clues together.

52:49

[00 52:36.324 – 00:52:39.494] Now, Marty also had a big impact on the military.

52:52

[00 52:39.494 – 00:52:44.454] In the old days, if you had a drinking or a drug problem, you get kicked out of the military.

52:59

[00 52:44.454 – 00:52:45.593] Maybe you go to the brig.

53:01

[00 52:45.593 – 00:52:47.754] You know, maybe you go to jail, right?

53:04

[00 52:47.754 – 00:52:55.214] But here she tells us, and it's published in 1946 Grapevine, it says, "Alcoholic vets may get help.

53:10

[00 52:55.214 – 00:53:00.334] The VA is considering offering care to alcoholics in its hospitals, Mrs.

53:14

[00 53:00.334 – 00:53:03.994] Marty Mann, executive secretary of the NCEA, said here.

53:17

[00 53:03.994 – 00:53:14.734] VA officials have been giving serious study to plans proposed by the national committee, she said, and have expressed a favorable reaction."

53:24

[00 53:14.734 – 00:53:16.534] That's a really big deal.

53:26

[00 53:16.534 – 00:53:19.674] That's a really big deal, you know?

53:29

[00 53:19.674 – 00:53:21.514] And that's something that Marty was behind.

53:31

[00 53:21.514 – 00:53:26.224] Now, I, I could have just shown you so many more articles about Marty, but...

53:36

[00 53:26.224 – 00:53:31.454] in, but the question I would want you to be asking by now is, well, what about the 11th tradition?

53:43

[00 53:31.454 – 00:53:36.274] "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion.

53:47

[00 53:36.274 – 00:53:42.754] We need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films," unquote.

53:52

[00 53:42.754 – 00:53:45.554] Well, that seems pretty clear, right?

53:54

[00 53:45.554 – 00:53:50.374] I mean, even today, you think, well, what aren't we clear about the 11th tradition, right?

53:59

[00 53:50.374 – 00:54:00.414] We need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films, and yet we see Marty Mann out there talking to the press, uh, new-

54:09

[00 54:00.414 – 00:54:05.014] newspapers all the country saying, "I'm an alcoholic." You know, some of them say she's in AA.

54:14

[00 54:05.014 – 00:54:09.654] Some of them, you know, say, you know, the first woman, right?

54:18

[00 54:09.654 – 00:54:11.074] But what I want to point out a few things.

54:22

[00 54:11.074 – 00:54:15.094] 1944, Marty founds the National Council on Alcoholism.

54:24

[00 54:15.094 – 00:54:21.874] 1947 to '48, the 12 traditions are published one by one in the Grapevine, AA magazine.

54:29

[00 54:21.874 – 00:54:24.094] Bill Wilson wrote them, right?

54:31

[00 54:24.094 – 00:54:26.114] And one by one they go out.

54:34

[00 54:26.114 – 00:54:30.014] So you live in Nebraska, they'd be like, "Honey, we got a new tradition.

54:38

[00 54:30.014 – 00:54:33.353] Tradition 4 is here," or whatever, you know, one by one.

54:42

[00 54:33.353 – 00:54:43.254] They were not adopted by AA until 1950, and then in 1953, the book we know and love, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, was published.

54:49

[00 54:43.254 – 00:54:46.514] But Marty's out there in 1944.

54:51

[00 54:46.514 – 00:54:56.694] So I mean, I, I've tried to say this many different ways over the years, but I think I can very succinctly say that you cannot break a tradition that has not even

55:02

[00 54:56.694 – 00:54:58.574] been written, okay?

55:03

[00 54:58.574 – 00:55:02.793] There were no traditions in 1944, all right?

55:06

[00 55:02.793 – 00:55:06.434] Now, th- this is why we have the traditions is because there...

55:10

[00 55:06.434 – 00:55:07.194] it wasn't just Marty.

55:12

[00 55:07.194 – 00:55:08.964] There were baseball players out there.

55:14

[00 55:08.964 – 00:55:11.074] Bill Wilson thought it'd be a good idea.

55:17

[00 55:11.074 – 00:55:13.554] Also, hello, Bill Wilson was her sponsor.

55:19

[00 55:13.554 – 00:55:17.294] She did not do anything that he was not fully aware of, right?

55:24

[00 55:17.294 – 00:55:17.514] She...

55:24

[00 55:17.514 – 00:55:24.584] Sometimes people talk to me, and they act like Marty was just, like, a wild card out there, just, you know, just out of there, out there on her own, tootie-

55:34

[00 55:24.810 – 00:55:25.470] her own horn.

55:36

[00 55:25.470 – 00:55:26.130] No.

55:36

[00 55:26.130 – 00:55:31.250] M- Mar- Marty was right there with Bill Wilson, and they did change.

55:41

[00 55:31.250 – 00:55:35.110] And once a tradition, once they realized, "No, that's not, we don't wanna go that direction.

55:46

[00 55:35.110 – 00:55:36.130] That's not working out.

55:48

[00 55:36.130 – 00:55:39.810] We have all these, all sorts of different people are out there breaking their anonymity.

55:53

[00 55:39.810 – 00:55:43.580] It's not a good thing." That's why we now have the 11th tradition.

55:57

[00 55:43.580 – 00:55:46.610] So, 1948.

55:58

[00 55:46.610 – 00:55:51.940] This is a very special, uh, diary entry, and boy, was that exciting to look at her diaries.

56:04

[00 55:51.940 – 00:56:00.940] Um, and, um, and what we see here is that in Washington, DC, she, at 8:30 PM, she's at a Negro AA meeting.

56:11

[00 56:00.940 – 00:56:09.550] And it says, "Speak 100." Now, Marty would often put, if she was speaking somewhere, she'd often put, circle the na- the number how many people showed up, you know.

56:21

[00 56:09.550 – 00:56:19.010] But what's different about this is that she was very meticulous in writing down people's names as well as their professions and their connection to each other.

56:29

[00 56:19.010 – 00:56:26.770] Now, some of you, I'm sure, have heard of the story, um, of, uh, of, uh, Jim Scott, right?

56:36

[00 56:26.770 – 00:56:29.890] He was the first Black person to have his story in the Big Book.

56:40

[00 56:29.890 – 00:56:35.070] He also is a founder of the first Black AA meeting in Washington, DC.

56:45

[00 56:35.070 – 00:56:37.470] His story is called Jim's Story.

56:47

[00 56:37.470 – 00:56:38.290] All right?

56:48

[00 56:38.290 – 00:56:48.290] Now, sometimes, don't get confused with, uh, Jimmy, uh, Miller, because Jimmy Miller is a woman who's often credited with being the first African

56:56

[00 56:48.290 – 00:56:49.070] American woman.

56:57

[00 56:49.070 – 00:56:55.070] Now, sometimes, you know, just any time you're in AA history, there'll be people that say, "No, there was another meeting.

57:04

[00 56:55.070 – 00:57:02.390] There was..." Well, I've abandoned saying anything is the first of anything, frankly, but, um, this, you get the essence.

57:11

[00 57:02.390 – 00:57:06.090] And that, this is the meeting that Jim started, Jim Scott started.

57:15

[00 57:06.090 – 00:57:08.150] And again, he was a medical doctor.

57:17

[00 57:08.150 – 00:57:10.010] So I, I, I love that she...

57:20

[00 57:10.010 – 00:57:14.910] And the other thing I feel like, she did this because no one was out there traveling more than Marty.

57:27

[00 57:14.910 – 00:57:21.430] So Marty, in addition to DC, I'm sure she's coming out here, California, go- and speaking at other Black meetings, right?

57:34

[00 57:21.430 – 00:57:23.690] And saying, "Hey, do you know about this group in DC?

57:37

[00 57:23.690 – 00:57:29.010] Hey, do you know about Jim Scott?" You know, and connecting people and doing networking.

57:42

[00 57:29.010 – 00:57:33.279] Uh, that was a, a service that she could do better than most people.

57:47

[00 57:33.279 – 00:57:40.610] Now, this is a nice, uh, very poignant letter written from Bill Wilson to Marty.

57:52

[00 57:40.610 – 00:57:47.830] And at this point, it looks like Marty's thinking that they, um, are going to have to close the National Council 'cause they're running out of money.

58:01

[00 57:47.830 – 00:57:55.050] And basically, he's just saying, I'm gonna summarize it, but he's saying, "Uh, you know, I understand more than most.

58:08

[00 57:55.050 – 00:58:05.230] I understand what a disappointment this must, must be." But then he goes on to say, "But, but I see," you know, reading between the lines, you know, "you're gonna rise phoenix-like."

58:18

[00 58:05.230 – 00:58:07.590] Then he says, "God bless you and keep you, my dear girl.

58:22

[00 58:07.590 – 00:58:10.330] See me at any time you can." Right?

58:25

[00 58:10.330 – 00:58:12.110] Again, that love of a sponsor.

58:27

[00 58:12.110 – 00:58:15.270] And then Lois Wilson put in a little shorter note here.

58:31

[00 58:15.270 – 00:58:19.770] And these notes are at Stepping Stones, so if you'd like to see them, just log on to Stepping Stones.

58:38

[00 58:19.770 – 00:58:29.850] Says, "Marty, dear, your work in the National Committee has been so outstanding and so beneficial to the alcoholic that I hope you won't have any sense of failure now because there's a

58:49

[00 58:29.850 – 00:58:31.770] chance of not having the money to go on.

58:52

[00 58:31.770 – 00:58:37.730] Many AAs don't understand how much you've helped the public to understand.

58:56

[00 58:37.730 – 00:58:41.750] Bill and I are proud of you, dear, and love you very much.

59:00

[00 58:41.750 – 00:58:43.690] Lois Wilson." Right?

59:02

[00 58:43.690 – 00:58:47.200] So what else is going on in 1940?

59:04

[00 58:47.200 – 00:58:53.330] Sometimes, you know, when we do this AA history, it's so important to l- like dial back a little bit and say, "Okay, bigger picture.

59:12

[00 58:53.330 – 00:59:01.250] What else is happening in the world?" Okay, we're just getting through World War II, for starters, and now we're entering a bit sometimes called the Red Scare, right?

59:22

[00 59:01.250 – 00:59:06.190] And then this is, um, the homophobia really increased during this time.

59:26

[00 59:06.190 – 00:59:13.730] And, uh, Truman had a national security loyalty program at which 1,200 men and women lost their jobs with the federal government.

59:33

[00 59:13.730 – 00:59:18.530] But these were the kind of headlines that were in every paper across the country, right?

59:38

[00 59:18.530 – 00:59:28.950] So it says, you know, "How the Reds Blackmail Homosexuals," "Senate Group Approves Sexual Perverts," "A pr- uh, Probe," uh, "Oust 119," "Inquiry

59:46

[00 59:28.950 – 00:59:30.810] by Senate," et cetera, et cetera.

59:48

[00 59:30.810 – 00:59:33.070] People were having their photos in the paper.

59:51

[00 59:33.070 – 00:59:34.730] Gay bars were being raided.

59:53

[00 59:34.730 – 00:59:37.430] People were losing their jobs, et cetera, et cetera.

59:56

[00 59:37.430 – 00:59:39.070] Very difficult time.

59:57

[00 59:39.070 – 00:59:41.730] But how is that being played out in AA?

60:00

[00 59:41.730 – 00:59:48.270] Well, one Barry L., also known as Barry Leach, he is the author of the book Living Sober.

60:06

[00 59:48.270 – 00:59:49.710] He's the sole author.

60:08

[00 59:49.710 – 00:59:55.970] He was hired to wr- to write that very special, very important book from early AA called Living Sober.

60:14

[00 59:55.970 – 00:59:56.910] That's Barry Leach.

60:15

[00 59:56.910 – 01:00:02.850] And Barry Leach was gay, and he was also good friends with Marty and Priscilla and several others.

60:21

[01 00:02.850 – 01:00:06.190] And he said, quote, "We were not just closeted.

60:25

[01 00:06.190 – 01:00:10.050] We were in a vault holding onto each other's hands desperately.

60:28

[01 00:10.050 – 01:00:12.730] We recognized each other, of course.

60:31

[01 00:12.730 – 01:00:16.170] And by the way, Bill knew us all, too.

60:34

[01 00:16.170 – 01:00:20.070] It never bothered Bill," unquote.

60:36

[01 00:20.070 – 01:00:27.410] That is so important, and it's so important that that message is out there, that everyone is welcome.

60:42

[01 00:27.410 – 01:00:27.670] Why?

60:42

[01 00:27.670 – 01:00:29.190] Because of tradition three.

60:44

[01 00:29.190 – 01:00:39.250] Quote, "At last, experience taught us that to take away any alcoholic's full chance was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence and

60:51

[01 00:39.250 – 01:00:41.830] often to condemn him to endless misery.

60:54

[01 00:41.830 – 01:00:48.460] Who dared to be the judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?" Right?

60:59

[01 00:48.460 – 01:00:51.150] Or sister, as the case may be, right?

61:02

[01 00:51.150 – 01:00:53.750] But not everything was perfect in AA.

61:04

[01 00:53.750 – 01:00:56.410] Here we see a letter from Hank Parkhurst.

61:07

[01 00:56.410 – 01:01:01.010] I found this at Brown University, and it's written to one Clarence Snyder.

61:11

[01 01:01.010 – 01:01:03.640] Oh, Hank, Hank, Hank.

61:13

[01 01:03.640 – 01:01:09.450] So Hank Parkhurst, you know, I think you're gonna be learning about him more next week.

61:18

[01 01:09.450 – 01:01:13.050] He was a very important person in AA history, as was Clarence.

61:22

[01 01:13.050 – 01:01:15.170] They both would get upset with Bill.

61:25

[01 01:15.170 – 01:01:17.570] I think they'd get upset with Bill Wilson.

61:28

[01 01:17.570 – 01:01:20.730] They'd get upset with, uh, all sorts of things.

61:31

[01 01:20.730 – 01:01:23.050] Hank, sadly, did relapse.

61:33

[01 01:23.050 – 01:01:23.910] He had trouble.

61:34

[01 01:23.910 – 01:01:29.730] He had a lot, he was very agitated about a lot of things, and this is one of the things he was agitated about.

61:42

[01 01:29.730 – 01:01:37.020] He wrote to Clarence and said, "The lunatic fringe is doing more than you, who are at least tentatively an insider, cannot realize.

61:49

[01 01:37.020 – 01:01:45.050] In New York, there's a group made up practically entirely of lesbians and fairies." So now I've ...

61:55

[01 01:45.050 – 01:01:47.650] When I first read this letter, I felt mad, honestly.

61:58

[01 01:47.650 – 01:01:51.430] I was like, "Hank, ugh." No.

62:01

[01 01:51.430 – 01:01:52.800] But you know what?

62:02

[01 01:52.800 – 01:01:55.590] I, now I look at it as good news, bad news.

62:06

[01 01:55.590 – 01:02:05.150] The good news is that we now know that in New York , this is a real archivist thrill, in New York, there is a group made up entirely of lesbians and fairies.

62:17

[01 02:05.150 – 01:02:05.750] So that's great.

62:18

[01 02:05.750 – 01:02:07.870] Now, did Hank mean that in a nice way?

62:21

[01 02:07.870 – 01:02:11.230] No, he certainly did not mean that in a nice way, no.

62:25

[01 02:11.230 – 01:02:14.790] But, you know, um, you know, we take what we can.

62:29

[01 02:14.790 – 01:02:20.270] Um, so again, Hank, you know, Hank was continuing to drink and had a hard time-

62:34

[01 02:20.506 – 01:02:25.906] Um, but, uh, but you know, we see also this is the atmosphere that they were living in.

62:40

[01 02:25.906 – 01:02:28.066] Now, my friend Laurie D.

62:42

[01 02:28.066 – 01:02:28.576] said...

62:43

[01 02:28.576 – 01:02:29.766] I'll get more water here.

62:45

[01 02:29.766 – 01:02:40.036] Said, "Mardi said it was her mission to carry the message about alcoholism, and it was our generation's job to carry the message about homosexuality.

62:53

[01 02:40.036 – 01:02:43.686] I don't think she had internalized homophobia.

62:55

[01 02:43.686 – 01:02:45.946] Mardi was fine with who she was.

62:58

[01 02:45.946 – 01:02:48.826] She was realistic and realistically fearful.

63:00

[01 02:48.826 – 01:02:58.606] The silence wasn't because she had shame about being a lesbian, the silence was because she knew there was danger, both professionally and, in those days, physically.

63:09

[01 02:58.606 – 01:03:08.656] Back in the day, one of the ways they could have rendered her and her message impotent was to gay bash." Now, it's very interesting because, you know, I think that, you know, when I think

63:21

[01 03:08.656 – 01:03:12.546] about people being in the closet, I think about, oh, they're, like, hiding.

63:25

[01 03:12.546 – 01:03:14.386] You know, the, the curtains are drawn.

63:28

[01 03:14.386 – 01:03:17.646] They're, like, maybe literally in a closet, and no one knows.

63:32

[01 03:17.646 – 01:03:20.346] But that's really not what Mardi's life was like.

63:35

[01 03:20.346 – 01:03:22.166] She owned property with Priscilla.

63:37

[01 03:22.166 – 01:03:24.586] You know, they, they had a place in New York.

63:40

[01 03:24.586 – 01:03:26.186] They had a place in Cherry Grove.

63:43

[01 03:26.186 – 01:03:29.346] When they got older, they moved to Connecticut and had a place.

63:47

[01 03:29.346 – 01:03:34.146] You know, um, there's, in the biography it said they had matching, you know, hand towels, you know?

63:53

[01 03:34.146 – 01:03:36.946] They, it w- people that knew, knew.

63:55

[01 03:36.946 – 01:03:41.266] People that had their eyes open, knew, including Bill and Lois Wilson.

63:59

[01 03:41.266 – 01:03:45.166] People that did not have their eyes open did not see it.

64:03

[01 03:45.166 – 01:03:48.006] But again, I think again, remember I said how she would say, "I'm Mrs.

64:08

[01 03:48.006 – 01:03:48.846] Mardi Mann, Mrs.

64:10

[01 03:48.846 – 01:03:56.866] Ma-", and I think as a woman, usually often by herself traveling, you know, she would be, that was a way, I think, for three reasons.

64:18

[01 03:56.866 – 01:03:58.646] One is I think it kept her safe.

64:21

[01 03:58.646 – 01:04:08.646] You know, being like, "I'm, I'm a married woman, I'm a married woman." It also, I think, sent a message to men saying, "I'm not available." But it also sent a message

64:31

[01 04:08.646 – 01:04:11.286] to their wives saying, "I'm not interested," right?

64:34

[01 04:11.286 – 01:04:15.726] And then probably most importantly was, "I'm not gay," right?

64:38

[01 04:15.726 – 01:04:16.846] To be like, "I'm Mrs.

64:40

[01 04:16.846 – 01:04:21.586] Mardi Mann." So I, I guess we have four reasons that she, I, I think she probably did that.

64:46

[01 04:21.586 – 01:04:23.286] And again, consider the year.

64:48

[01 04:23.286 – 01:04:25.746] The, okay, here I am up on the stairs.

64:51

[01 04:25.746 – 01:04:30.546] Now, that is the address where Mardi and Priscilla lived at this time, at 10 West 9th Street.

64:57

[01 04:30.546 – 01:04:34.426] And this is exciting because they're there in that red circle.

65:00

[01 04:34.426 – 01:04:36.586] That's Mardi and Priscilla's place.

65:02

[01 04:36.586 – 01:04:40.186] In that light blue circle, that's where Barry and Spencer lived.

65:06

[01 04:40.186 – 01:04:42.466] By the way, Barry was from Texas.

65:09

[01 04:42.466 – 01:04:44.526] I still wanna go to his grave site.

65:12

[01 04:44.526 – 01:04:51.935] There's gonna be an exciting, um, history conference in Dallas next Labor Day weekend, and I will most certainly be there.

65:18

[01 04:51.935 – 01:04:56.546] And I'd like to see if a group of people would like to go out and see Barry's grave site.

65:25

[01 04:56.546 – 01:04:58.566] I know some of them have already gone out there.

65:29

[01 04:58.566 – 01:05:02.886] But, um, so that's Bar- anyway, so that's in Dallas Labor Day weekend.

65:33

[01 05:02.886 – 01:05:06.726] Um, now Barry and Spencer lived on 100 Bank Street.

65:36

[01 05:06.726 – 01:05:07.526] Boom, there.

65:37

[01 05:07.526 – 01:05:09.766] W- look at the big purple circle.

65:40

[01 05:09.766 – 01:05:11.526] This is very interesting.

65:41

[01 05:11.526 – 01:05:16.146] They all were living there in 1969, and guess what else happened.

65:45

[01 05:16.146 – 01:05:26.306] It's called the Stonewall Uprising, and that is what is considered the beginning of the modern day lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender liberation movement, was on that

65:54

[01 05:26.306 – 01:05:26.586] day.

65:54

[01 05:26.586 – 01:05:32.606] And that's when, you know, there was a, you know, big uproar, big uprising.

65:59

[01 05:32.606 – 01:05:38.646] Uh, and, and, and Mardi and Priscilla were living like five blocks away, as was Spencer, uh, Barry and Spencer.

66:06

[01 05:38.646 – 01:05:43.786] And now I'm not in any way saying that they were there, I'm just saying they were not that deeply closeted.

66:13

[01 05:43.786 – 01:05:48.966] They were living in one of the most popular gay neighborhoods, Greenwich Village, in all of the world.

66:19

[01 05:48.966 – 01:05:51.126] So again, not that closeted.

66:21

[01 05:51.126 – 01:06:01.226] So Mardi's first book, Primer on Alcoholism, she dedicates to Priscilla Peck, "Who made me write, write it all down." And, uh, these are some more great

66:29

[01 06:01.226 – 01:06:02.586] photos.

66:30

[01 06:02.586 – 01:06:05.026] Now, this, uh, uh, her second book.

66:33

[01 06:05.026 – 01:06:07.666] Or no, that's the same book I just showed, I think.

66:36

[01 06:07.666 – 01:06:10.986] Um, yeah, different, uh, country, uh...

66:39

[01 06:10.986 – 01:06:12.956] The first one, that was the British vers- version.

66:42

[01 06:12.956 – 01:06:22.506] She writes to Bill and Lois Wilson and says, "Without whose affection, understanding, and knowledge, not one word of this book would have been written, for I would not be here.

66:52

[01 06:22.506 – 01:06:24.426] Mardi." Right?

66:53

[01 06:24.426 – 01:06:28.726] And then the second book she wrote, "To Bill and Lois, my beloved family.

66:58

[01 06:28.726 – 01:06:34.766] Mardi." Now, Mardi did have a few, um, misadventures.

67:01

[01 06:34.766 – 01:06:44.126] Uh, and the biography says that she, quote, "Temporarily lost her bearings with Carson McCullers," and I think that's an incredible euphemism for having an affair.

67:09

[01 06:44.126 – 01:06:50.566] Um, but Carson McCullers, author of The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, that's them at Cherry Grove in 1950.

67:15

[01 06:50.566 – 01:06:56.906] And boy, if you ever really wanna go on a downer, read her biography.

67:20

[01 06:56.906 – 01:07:00.346] That, it is very, uh, sad, Carson McCullers.

67:23

[01 07:00.346 – 01:07:03.586] But anyway, um, so that's them.

67:25

[01 07:03.586 – 01:07:07.166] And I, I, I was able to read, I felt like hundreds of letters.

67:30

[01 07:07.166 – 01:07:08.306] It was probably dozens.

67:31

[01 07:08.306 – 01:07:10.546] Um, but this was at Syracuse.

67:34

[01 07:10.546 – 01:07:15.246] These letters from Carson McCullers, and I just, aw, love letters, love letters, love...

67:38

[01 07:15.246 – 01:07:20.186] I feel like my, the impression I got is that Mardi very quickly realized she'd made a mistake.

67:44

[01 07:20.186 – 01:07:22.306] I think Carson was kinda immature.

67:47

[01 07:22.306 – 01:07:24.266] I think she really looked up to Mardi.

67:49

[01 07:24.266 – 01:07:28.306] And, uh, Carson was not in AA, and, uh, by the way.

67:54

[01 07:28.306 – 01:07:33.316] And, um, anyway, just saying, you know, on and on and on and on and on.

67:59

[01 07:33.316 – 01:07:37.646] However, Mardi did seriously fall in love with a woman named Jane Bowles.

68:03

[01 07:37.646 – 01:07:38.706] Again, a playwright.

68:05

[01 07:38.706 – 01:07:42.446] Her husband was also a famous playwright named Paul Bowles.

68:08

[01 07:42.446 – 01:07:44.406] They remained married their whole lives.

68:10

[01 07:44.406 – 01:07:48.686] But they were gay when they got married, and that was very, very common back then.

68:16

[01 07:48.686 – 01:07:52.166] Very common, gay men and lesbians to marry each other.

68:19

[01 07:52.166 – 01:07:53.746] They would live together.

68:21

[01 07:53.746 – 01:07:55.506] They would take the same last name.

68:23

[01 07:55.506 – 01:07:59.246] They would do, they would do everything except for that they were not a romantic couple.

68:29

[01 07:59.246 – 01:08:08.226] And, like, she would have a relationship with a woman, he'd have a relationship with a man, but that's how they survived, you know, was by having this secret situation.

68:38

[01 08:08.226 – 01:08:10.026] So again, that's that.

68:40

[01 08:10.026 – 01:08:12.166] Now, we don't know what Priscilla was doing.

68:43

[01 08:12.166 – 01:08:15.606] For all we know, Priscilla was also maybe having relationships.

68:46

[01 08:15.606 – 01:08:19.886] Um, uh, obviously they were not allowed to be legally married, so we don't know about Priscilla.

68:52

[01 08:19.886 – 01:08:29.166] But Priscilla did write this very generous and loving letter to Mardi, and it says, "Darling, I love you up, down, in, out, now, then, forever.

69:01

[01 08:29.166 – 01:08:35.766] No sea, sky, land, bog, flotsam, jetsam or whatnot can harm or separate us.

69:05

[01 08:35.766 – 01:08:37.646] All, all, all love, P.

69:07

[01 08:37.646 – 01:08:45.106] Love and kisses to Bunny, the hero, and Taffy." Now, this is a fantastic letter.

69:12

[01 08:45.106 – 01:08:51.846] Now, Honey, Honey and Taffy were, um, I mean, Bunny and Taffy, sorry, were, uh, corgis.

69:18

[01 08:51.846 – 01:08:57.146] Um, and, uh, and th- so this is Mardi's mother in the front.

69:22

[01 08:57.146 – 01:09:00.826] And, uh, I wanna say they're Welsh Corgis, but don't quote me on that.

69:27

[01 09:00.826 – 01:09:02.706] Anyway, that's Mardi's mother.

69:28

[01 09:02.706 – 01:09:08.986] And I just, it pleases me so much that Mardi's mom was a part of her life and clearly understood everything that was happening.

69:36

[01 09:08.986 – 01:09:10.506] That's Priscilla in the back left.

69:39

[01 09:10.506 – 01:09:11.516] That's Mardi to the right.

69:41

[01 09:11.516 – 01:09:15.836] And in the middle, that is LeClere Bissell, also a very important pr-

69:45

[01 09:16.012 – 01:09:16.242] person.

69:46

[01 09:16.242 – 01:09:23.742] Marti was her sponsor, and, um, I, I, I have a lot more to say about LeClair in a different, a different talk that I give.

69:54

[01 09:23.742 – 01:09:34.192] Okay, so now this is an article in the Albuquerque Journal, uh, but the article is talking about Marti being in South Africa, and it's in 1951.

70:03

[01 09:34.192 – 01:09:43.942] And she toured the county and sh- uh, the country, and she gave 58 lectures and, uh, and spoke to th- uh, professional groups in 13 different cities.

70:11

[01 09:43.942 – 01:09:47.282] That's Marti going there in 1951.

70:13

[01 09:47.282 – 01:09:51.642] So, uh, Marti's book was translated into Afrikaans.

70:16

[01 09:51.642 – 01:09:54.722] Even that edition was dedicated to Priscilla.

70:18

[01 09:54.722 – 01:10:00.212] And, um, I was able to find a copy of that, and that also is in the Stepping Stones archives.

70:25

[01 10:00.212 – 01:10:04.742] Now, the second edition Big Book comes out in 1955.

70:28

[01 10:04.742 – 01:10:14.682] You know, I think sometimes, you know, when I was, uh, younger in AA, I didn't really understand, like, what's the big deal about the different editions?

70:37

[01 10:14.682 – 01:10:19.142] And, you know, and it, there was 15 years for the first edition.

70:41

[01 10:19.142 – 01:10:21.192] That's a long time to have a first...

70:44

[01 10:21.192 – 01:10:23.802] There were multiple printings, but one edition.

70:47

[01 10:23.802 – 01:10:29.762] So finally, 1955 comes the second edition, and Marti is to- story is there.

70:51

[01 10:29.762 – 01:10:33.482] S- second, third, and fourth edition, and may it always be so.

70:55

[01 10:33.482 – 01:10:38.002] I really, really hope that Marti's story will always remain in future editions.

71:00

[01 10:38.002 – 01:10:42.902] Um, the subheading says, "Despite great opportunities, alcohol nearly ended her life.

71:04

[01 10:42.902 – 01:10:48.942] Early member, she spread the word among women in our pioneering period." Now, this is amazing.

71:09

[01 10:48.942 – 01:10:53.002] In 1956, she actually had a private audience with the pope.

71:13

[01 10:53.002 – 01:10:54.962] This is Marti's life.

71:14

[01 10:54.962 – 01:10:59.502] I mean, it's unbelievable the people that she was able to reach out to.

71:19

[01 10:59.502 – 01:11:01.182] Now, uh, the reason...

71:21

[01 11:01.182 – 01:11:11.182] I mean, number one, it's just amazing, but number two, the reason it's even more important is that by her meeting with him, it also has a positive influence on the

71:31

[01 11:11.182 – 01:11:21.222] American Catholic Church so that, uh, they can see that these modern approaches to alcoholism, symbolized by the NCA, um, are welcome

71:38

[01 11:21.222 – 01:11:26.822] and that, and it's something that the pope, the pope said it was of the first importance, unquote.

71:44

[01 11:26.822 – 01:11:27.662] Right?

71:45

[01 11:27.662 – 01:11:32.742] And so that kind of opens it up so that the Catholic Church in America says, "Okay, all right.

71:51

[01 11:32.742 – 01:11:34.102] Okay, good.

71:52

[01 11:34.102 – 01:11:36.642] We like it." So that's really special.

71:54

[01 11:36.642 – 01:11:40.062] Now, this sa- this is another headline I really enjoyed.

71:58

[01 11:40.062 – 01:11:50.132] This woman was, on the left, is a UN delegate, and they were asked, like, "If you were 20 years old, what, what would you do differently?" And the woman on the left says, "I would learn languages." But Marti says,

72:11

[01 11:50.132 – 01:11:57.722] "I would go through the nightmare all over again if I had to, to do what I'm able to do today." Right?

72:18

[01 11:57.722 – 01:11:59.572] Is that, like, the AA way or what?

72:21

[01 11:59.572 – 01:12:00.652] Oh, great.

72:22

[01 12:00.652 – 01:12:09.762] Sadly, um, Marti came perilously close to o- uh, f- luckily didn't have to redo everything, but she did have a slip.

72:29

[01 12:09.762 – 01:12:10.542] It was brief.

72:30

[01 12:10.542 – 01:12:20.542] It was, um, from what I understand, she was drinking bitters, and bitters is one of those kind of strange drinks that's not super common, and some people are like, "Is it

72:41

[01 12:20.542 – 01:12:21.682] really this?" Yeah, it is.

72:43

[01 12:21.682 – 01:12:22.382] It's alcohol.

72:44

[01 12:22.382 – 01:12:32.382] And the, uh, biography says, "What precipitated the drinking is unknown, but the accumulating stressors of her work, her health, the long illness of her mother, and the death of her parents would be

72:55

[01 12:32.382 – 01:12:36.742] danger signals for the ordinary recovering alcoholic." And we know that.

72:59

[01 12:36.742 – 01:12:40.802] We know that Marti was in asylums.

73:01

[01 12:40.802 – 01:12:42.742] She wa- she almost lost her life.

73:04

[01 12:42.742 – 01:12:47.182] She is what some people like to call a real alcoholic.

73:07

[01 12:47.182 – 01:12:50.342] So of course, she's not immune to relapse, you know?

73:11

[01 12:50.342 – 01:12:53.072] She got back right out there.

73:13

[01 12:53.072 – 01:12:57.832] 1961, we see she's in New Zealand, Australia, carrying the message.

73:17

[01 12:57.832 – 01:13:01.222] 1963, she's in the Reader's Digest.

73:19

[01 13:01.222 – 01:13:10.622] And, uh, it says, the headline says, "What the alcoholic owes to Marti Mann." And believe me, very few people in AA even know who Marti Mann is, you know?

73:28

[01 13:10.622 – 01:13:20.622] And so you think, like, the way Bill and Lois would honor her, the way that our society honored her, and in many ways she was like a, like a, um, a

73:39

[01 13:20.622 – 01:13:22.362] household name, you know?

73:40

[01 13:22.362 – 01:13:29.402] That I'm sure if your parents were living in any of these big cities, it's very likely they knew who Marti Mann was, you know?

73:49

[01 13:29.402 – 01:13:30.822] So here's the big question.

73:51

[01 13:30.822 – 01:13:31.982] Get some water for this.

73:52

[01 13:31.982 – 01:13:38.202] Is Marti Mann really the first lady of AA?

73:56

[01 13:38.202 – 01:13:40.922] Okay, I'm gonna walk us through it.

73:58

[01 13:40.922 – 01:13:43.322] Now, um, Marti...

73:59

[01 13:43.322 – 01:13:46.852] M, you are all officially now experts on Marti Mann.

74:03

[01 13:46.852 – 01:13:48.042] I'm crowning you.

74:04

[01 13:48.042 – 01:13:49.542] You are experts.

74:05

[01 13:49.542 – 01:13:50.582] Then there was Sylvia K.

74:07

[01 13:50.582 – 01:13:51.742] She was amazing.

74:09

[01 13:51.742 – 01:13:59.272] She brought the message from Akron to Chicago along with another fellow, and, uh, really, uh, was fantastic.

74:15

[01 13:59.272 – 01:14:05.102] And, um, her story is, um, excuse me, uh, Keys to the Kingdom.

74:19

[01 14:05.102 – 01:14:06.342] Sylvia was amazing.

74:20

[01 14:06.342 – 01:14:08.262] Some people think she, maybe she should be first.

74:23

[01 14:08.262 – 01:14:10.842] Sybil C, we love her on the West Coast.

74:27

[01 14:10.842 – 01:14:21.102] You know, she, um, she's really a kick in the pants, and there's some great recordings of her where she says, "My name is Sybil Doris Adam Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis,"

74:37

[01 14:21.102 – 01:14:24.942] and then the letter C, because she was married seven times.

74:41

[01 14:24.942 – 01:14:26.542] Then there's Ethel M.

74:42

[01 14:26.542 – 01:14:27.262] of Akron.

74:43

[01 14:27.262 – 01:14:31.302] Her Big Book story is called, um, From Farm to City, right?

74:47

[01 14:31.302 – 01:14:33.102] She's certainly held in high esteem.

74:49

[01 14:33.102 – 01:14:35.302] And then there's a woman named Florence.

74:52

[01 14:35.302 – 01:14:38.462] And her story's in the first edition Big Book.

74:55

[01 14:38.462 – 01:14:47.062] Um, I have an entire talk dedicated to Florence, and the thing is is that Florence did relapse, and she died very young.

75:03

[01 14:47.062 – 01:14:49.242] As you can see, she died in 1943.

75:05

[01 14:49.242 – 01:14:55.902] Her story was taken out of the first edition and very few people know anything about Florence.

75:11

[01 14:55.902 – 01:14:57.042] So, you know...

75:12

[01 14:57.042 – 01:15:07.182] But the thing is, you know, if I had to choose, I mean, I feel like sim- I feel like in many ways m- m- what Marti did was she,

75:22

[01 15:07.182 – 01:15:17.262] she created this atmosphere that women belong in AA, and she w- told her story across the country in AA meetings and to, you know,

75:30

[01 15:17.262 – 01:15:19.322] as part of the national council, saying, "I'm a woman.

75:34

[01 15:19.322 – 01:15:20.942] I'm an alcoholic," right?

75:35

[01 15:20.942 – 01:15:24.362] And so she, like, helped women gain entry into AA.

75:39

[01 15:24.362 – 01:15:27.502] Was she the first woman to walk in the door?

75:42

[01 15:27.502 – 01:15:29.002] No, definitely not.

75:43

[01 15:29.002 – 01:15:32.542] So if we're saying literally the first woman in AA, no.

75:47

[01 15:32.542 – 01:15:37.102] There was a woman named Jane Sturdivant in Ohio, um, uh, Dr.

75:51

[01 15:37.102 – 01:15:39.602] Bob identified as a housewife who was there.

75:54

[01 15:39.602 – 01:15:40.762] We don't know what happened to her.

75:57

[01 15:40.762 – 01:15:45.242] Some say there's a woman named Mary, Edith, Hazel, Helen.

76:00

[01 15:45.242 – 01:15:50.122] There's a variety of different women who we simply don't know a- the details about.

76:05

[01 15:50.122 – 01:16:00.122] Um, but still, symbolically, if I have to choose who I think is the, quote, "first woman in AA" without knowing more

76:13

[01 16:00.122 – 01:16:04.262] about these other ladies, is simply to say I'm going with Florence.

76:17

[01 16:04.262 – 01:16:07.862] Um, again, her story was the only story for 15 years.

76:20

[01 16:07.862 – 01:16:10.882] And, uh, this is what Marti Mann had to say.

76:24

[01 16:11.598 – 01:16:21.978] This was in the 1960 edition that was put out for the conference for, a special book, said, "When I attended my first AA meeting in April 11th, 1939,

76:33

[01 16:21.978 – 01:16:29.398] I was the only woman alcoholic there, and I might not have been there had there not been one before me." Okay, I'm gonna repeat that.

76:41

[01 16:29.398 – 01:16:39.908] It says, "And I might not have been there had there not been one before me, whose story I had read in the manuscript of a book called Alcoholics

76:51

[01 16:39.908 – 01:16:40.658] Anonymous.

76:51

[01 16:40.658 – 01:16:45.678] As soon as I decently could, I asked about the woman whose story was in the book.

76:57

[01 16:45.678 – 01:16:48.598] She was much older than I, with grown children.

77:00

[01 16:48.598 – 01:16:50.498] Her name was Florence.

77:02

[01 16:50.498 – 01:17:00.958] No one seemed to know her except Bill and Lois, for she was in Washington where one of our earliest members of the group, a man named Fitz, was trying to get something started.

77:13

[01 17:00.958 – 01:17:06.338] He was having a rough time, for all the prospects, including Florence, kept getting drunk.

77:18

[01 17:06.338 – 01:17:13.198] I breathed a prayer of thanks that she had stayed sober long enough to write her story for me.

77:24

[01 17:13.198 – 01:17:19.218] Marty Mann." So I think Marty agrees with that, you know, at least symbolically.

77:29

[01 17:19.218 – 01:17:23.638] Now, Bill Wilson died January 24th, 1971.

77:31

[01 17:23.638 – 01:17:26.018] This is a diary entry of Felicia.

77:34

[01 17:26.018 – 01:17:28.178] Again, remember the countess I mentioned earlier?

77:36

[01 17:28.178 – 01:17:30.678] She wrote, "Bill died Sunday.

77:38

[01 17:30.678 – 01:17:33.498] All AA, everyone in it, is in grief.

77:41

[01 17:33.498 – 01:17:35.078] It's good he went.

77:42

[01 17:35.078 – 01:17:36.398] He was very sick.

77:44

[01 17:36.398 – 01:17:42.298] There's a wonderful article in The Times, a rather skimpy one," in Time Magazine.

77:49

[01 17:42.298 – 01:17:50.028] Now, on February 14th, um, Felicia writes, "Went with Marty and Priscilla to Bill's memorial service in St.

77:55

[01 17:50.028 – 01:17:51.198] John the Divine.

77:56

[01 17:51.198 – 01:17:52.648] It was beautiful.

77:57

[01 17:52.648 – 01:17:54.158] Marty spoke.

77:58

[01 17:54.158 – 01:17:59.478] Various AAs read the Preamble, the start of Chapter 5 in the 12 Steps.

78:02

[01 17:59.478 – 01:18:05.038] Marty and Priscilla and I ate steak at my house, and then I spoke at Mansfield.

78:08

[01 18:05.038 – 01:18:07.998] This too was a memorial for Bill." Right?

78:11

[01 18:07.998 – 01:18:15.958] Now, Marty's last real big public speaking was, uh, July 1980 at the International AA Convention in New Orleans.

78:17

[01 18:15.958 – 01:18:18.058] That was not that long ago.

78:19

[01 18:18.058 – 01:18:24.567] Maybe 'cause I'm a woman, woman of a certain age, but 1980 was, you know, just yesterday.

78:24

[01 18:24.567 – 01:18:27.178] And I'm gonna play a recording of what she had to say.

78:28

[01 18:27.178 – 01:18:37.578] It said, "Marty rose from the wheelchair and walked slowly to the podium as a prolonged ovation shook the rafters." Remember, Marty lives in Connecticut, and she's gone all the way to New Orleans

78:39

[01 18:37.578 – 01:18:39.078] near the very end of her life.

78:42

[01 18:39.078 – 01:18:40.278] That's how much it meant to her.

78:45

[01 18:40.278 – 01:18:41.858] Okay, here's her recording.

78:46

[01 18:41.858 – 01:18:52.498] It's pretty hard to

78:48

[01 18:52.498 – 01:18:56.278] find my voice, even looking around this room.

78:51

[01 18:56.278 – 01:19:03.758] I can't tell you what it feels like to be a great-great-great-great-grandmother to so many women.

78:56

[01 19:03.758 – 01:19:14.178] That's

78:57

[01 19:14.178 – 01:19:15.858] what you are, all of you.

78:59

[01 19:15.858 – 01:19:21.078] You're my children, and I'm so, so proud of you.

79:02

[01 19:21.078 – 01:19:25.318] It's so moving.

79:03

[01 19:25.318 – 01:19:35.318] You know, in case you couldn't hear, she said, "I can't tell you what it's like to be a great-great-great-great grandmother to so many women, because that's what you are, all of you.

79:14

[01 19:35.318 – 01:19:43.878] You're my children, and I am so proud of you." You know, just like Bill and Lois didn't have children, Marty and Priscilla, they didn't have children.

79:23

[01 19:43.878 – 01:19:46.338] Barry Leach didn't have children, you know?

79:26

[01 19:46.338 – 01:19:48.418] And we are really their descendants.

79:28

[01 19:48.418 – 01:19:50.058] I believe that very strongly.

79:30

[01 19:50.058 – 01:19:55.278] You know, those of us who are in Alcoholics Anonymous, we, you know, some people say we stand on their shoulders.

79:37

[01 19:55.278 – 01:19:59.097] I mean, and she says, "You're my children," and that's how it feels to me.

79:42

[01 19:59.097 – 01:20:02.938] So the New York Times obituary, uh, it was a great honor.

79:46

[01 20:02.938 – 01:20:08.118] Very few women ge- got their, uh, you know, obituaries in The New York Times back then.

79:52

[01 20:08.118 – 01:20:13.038] But Priscilla was not mentioned in the obituary, even though they'd been together 40 years.

79:56

[01 20:13.038 – 01:20:17.418] But I always like to point out, you know who was mentioned?

80:00

[01 20:17.418 – 01:20:21.508] John Blakemore, that fellow that she was with for three months.

80:04

[01 20:21.508 – 01:20:29.798] Around an hour ago when I, when I told you the story about how she eloped, his name is in her New York Times obituary.

80:12

[01 20:29.798 – 01:20:33.778] So this is how history can be very confusing, right?

80:16

[01 20:33.778 – 01:20:39.198] And this is how LGBTQ people can certainly disappear, to be like, well, you know.

80:21

[01 20:39.198 – 01:20:43.458] So, uh, bless her, you know?

80:23

[01 20:43.458 – 01:20:48.497] Now, I, after, I've so, I've so wanted to go to her gravesite for so long.

80:29

[01 20:48.497 – 01:20:52.818] I just spoke at a conference, uh, in November, and I went to Chicago.

80:33

[01 20:52.818 – 01:20:54.638] It was for the first snow of the season.

80:37

[01 20:54.638 – 01:20:56.298] There I am on the left.

80:39

[01 20:56.298 – 01:20:57.478] It was so moving.

80:40

[01 20:57.478 – 01:21:01.358] I got to see her gravestone, and you see the big family sto- the big...

80:45

[01 21:01.358 – 01:21:03.557] I don't know what that's called, but behind her.

80:49

[01 21:03.557 – 01:21:08.698] And then she's right next to her parents, as well as her sister, uh, one of her sisters.

80:55

[01 21:08.698 – 01:21:14.818] And, um, you know, that's a beautiful illustration of, uh, both Marty and Priscilla together.

81:00

[01 21:14.818 – 01:21:22.898] Now, Priscilla outlived Marty by two years, and Marty's brother watched over Priscilla and tried to have their ashes buried together.

81:07

[01 21:22.898 – 01:21:28.518] But the cemetery would not allow it because they were not considered family.

81:11

[01 21:28.518 – 01:21:30.578] That was 1982.

81:12

[01 21:30.578 – 01:21:36.618] They were not allowed to be buried together, even with Marty's brother making the request.

81:17

[01 21:36.618 – 01:21:47.078] So I always try to leave on a upnote, but I just wanna say, I guess the upnote is that we're here tonight,

81:25

[01 21:47.078 – 01:21:56.098] and we get to be together, and we get to appreciate recovery speakers, and we get to appreciate each other.

81:31

[01 21:56.098 – 01:22:02.298] And I know there's another history conference happening in South Carolina very soon, as well as the one in Dallas.

81:38

[01 22:02.298 – 01:22:05.058] And it's just so great to be in community together.

81:41

[01 22:05.058 – 01:22:07.198] So I just wanna thank you.

81:44

[01 22:07.198 – 01:22:14.008] Uh, if you'd li- I have a bibliography that's very detailed and it has links to all these audio recordings and things like that.

81:52

[01 22:14.008 – 01:22:17.638] So if you'd like to receive the bibliography, I'm very happy to share it with you.

81:57

[01 22:17.638 – 01:22:26.738] Or I have a few upcoming talks, so if you'd like to invite me to talk about Florence or, uh, the, my new talk is Seven LGBTQ Early AAs.

82:06

[01 22:26.738 – 01:22:33.098] I've got seven of them, and by early I'm talking 1930s and '40s, as well as the Third Tradition.

82:13

[01 22:33.098 – 01:22:34.518] I do a deep dive into that.

82:16

[01 22:34.518 – 01:22:37.338] My email is martyandmily@gmail.com.

82:18

[01 22:37.338 – 01:22:40.998] I'm gonna email it for our friends who are listening to this audio recording.

82:23

[01 22:40.998 – 01:22:49.918] It is M-A-R-T-Y-A-N-D-M-I-L-Y@gmail.com.

82:24

[01 22:49.918 – 01:22:54.658] And here's the flyer for the talk that's gonna be December 13th.

82:29

[01 22:54.658 – 01:22:56.018] If you'd like, you could take a photo.

82:31

[01 22:56.018 – 01:22:56.858] Just be careful.

82:33

[01 22:56.858 – 01:23:00.658] You could take a photo of this particular one, but again, I'm very happy to email.

82:38

[01 23:00.658 – 01:23:02.318] Uh, so, all right.

82:40

[01 23:02.318 – 01:23:02.798] Thank you.

82:41

[01 23:02.798 – 01:23:03.298] We're done.

82:42

[01 23:03.298 – 01:23:03.798] We did it.

82:43

[01 23:03.798 – 01:23:07.068] I went over a little bit, but I so appreciate-

82:46

[01 23:07.535 – 01:23:08.465] your attention.

82:47

[01 23:08.465 – 01:23:09.595] All right, thank you.

82:49

[01 23:09.595 – 01:23:12.235] You did great, Miley.

82:50

[01 23:12.235 – 01:23:16.635] Thank you, and, uh, now we've got a few minutes for questions.

82:55

[01 23:16.635 – 01:23:26.655] So anyone that has a question for Miley, please, uh, use the raise hand function and I will call on you to unmute, uh, once your hands are

83:04

[01 23:26.655 – 01:23:27.115] raised.

83:04

[01 23:27.115 – 01:23:31.055] And first up is Houston.

83:06

[01 23:31.055 – 01:23:32.095] You can unmute.

83:07

[01 23:32.095 – 01:23:37.475] Hey, Miley, this is Houston from, from Seattle.

83:10

[01 23:37.475 – 01:23:37.505] Hey.

83:11

[01 23:37.505 – 01:23:47.415] And I just wanna say, once again, like every time I hear you, there's so much great new material, and you're just, uh, you're amazing.

83:19

[01 23:47.415 – 01:23:50.585] And thank you so much for being the- Mm ...

83:22

[01 23:50.585 – 01:23:54.015] the gatekeeper of this information in so many ways.

83:26

[01 23:54.015 – 01:24:02.015] And, um, plan on seeing you at your next t- um, talk, and again, thank you, thank you for being the amazing person you are.

83:34

[01 24:02.015 – 01:24:03.555] Thanks, Houston.

83:35

[01 24:03.555 – 01:24:04.655] It's great to see you.

83:37

[01 24:04.655 – 01:24:06.015] Great to see you.

83:38

[01 24:06.015 – 01:24:06.775] Thank you.

83:39

[01 24:06.775 – 01:24:10.175] Thank you, Houston.

83:40

[01 24:10.175 – 01:24:11.315] Next is Mary Ellen.

83:42

[01 24:11.315 – 01:24:12.235] You can unmute.

83:43

[01 24:12.235 – 01:24:14.605] Hi, everyone, I'm Mary Ellen.

83:45

[01 24:14.605 – 01:24:15.615] I'm an alcoholic.

83:46

[01 24:15.615 – 01:24:25.855] Oh, man, I am so enthused about this because I, um, I heard about Manny, um, Marty Mann a long time ago, and then, uh, getting

83:55

[01 24:25.855 – 01:24:28.195] a whole history of it, it made me.

83:58

[01 24:28.195 – 01:24:34.915] I, I, uh, called my sponsor and she's here in the audience too, and, um, I'll tell you, I mean, I learned so much.

84:06

[01 24:34.915 – 01:24:41.695] I had no idea that, um, that, um, she was a lesbian or a homosexual, you know, and it's like, wow.

84:13

[01 24:41.695 – 01:24:44.455] It's like I didn't know that alcohol would pull that, you know?

84:17

[01 24:44.455 – 01:24:45.145] And it- Mm ...

84:18

[01 24:45.145 – 01:24:49.435] and of course they were all closeted, like you said, and it's like, wow, it amazed me.

84:24

[01 24:49.435 – 01:24:51.015] But thank you so much.

84:26

[01 24:51.015 – 01:24:55.175] I mean, this was so absolutely life-changing for me, so thank you.

84:30

[01 24:55.175 – 01:24:56.375] My pleasure.

84:31

[01 24:56.375 – 01:24:57.695] I love- Thank you so much for coming.

84:34

[01 24:57.695 – 01:24:59.035] I really appreciate it.

84:35

[01 24:59.035 – 01:25:02.375] Thank you.

84:36

[01 25:02.375 – 01:25:05.315] Thank you, Mary Ellen, and next is Janice.

84:39

[01 25:05.315 – 01:25:06.155] You can unmute.

84:40

[01 25:06.155 – 01:25:07.874] Hi, everybody.

84:41

[01 25:07.874 – 01:25:11.835] Miley, what a beautiful presentation you just made this evening.

84:45

[01 25:11.835 – 01:25:12.955] It's just amazing.

84:46

[01 25:12.955 – 01:25:19.235] Every time I watch, there's another piece of information that you've pulled up, and I have a question for you.

84:53

[01 25:19.235 – 01:25:24.345] I've been in touch with the reverend, uh, uh, over at Calvary Church- Yes ...

84:57

[01 25:24.345 – 01:25:34.515] where Bill would sit with Sam Shoemaker, and do we have any information at all, uh, he's, they're doing a renovation in the church, and they're giving us a possible a- uh,

85:08

[01 25:34.515 – 01:25:42.915] opportunity to have a stained glass window to the originals, you know, people who started, the pioneers of AA.

85:14

[01 25:42.915 – 01:25:43.384] Mm-hmm.

85:15

[01 25:43.384 – 01:25:46.655] Is there any chance that Marty might have gone to church there?

85:19

[01 25:46.655 – 01:25:48.635] Do we have any connection with that?

85:21

[01 25:48.635 – 01:25:49.935] You know what?

85:23

[01 25:49.935 – 01:25:52.515] I mean, part of me, I just wanna say yes.

85:26

[01 25:52.515 – 01:25:53.335] Yeah.

85:27

[01 25:53.335 – 01:25:54.125] But- Which I would- ...

85:28

[01 25:54.125 – 01:25:55.675] um, I, but you know what?

85:31

[01 25:55.675 – 01:26:05.694] I, if I, what I would do, and you never know, maybe somehow, if anyone lives near Syracuse or Brown, or I know one of you is going to Brown pretty soon, part of me feels like it would

85:43

[01 26:05.695 – 01:26:06.695] be in her diary.

85:45

[01 26:06.695 – 01:26:07.835] So I don't know.

85:46

[01 26:07.835 – 01:26:09.175] I, but- Right ...

85:48

[01 26:09.175 – 01:26:12.255] the other thing is maybe I could look online to Brown University.

85:52

[01 26:12.255 – 01:26:17.604] Sometimes you can put in special requests, and I mean, when I say Brown, I mean Syracuse, 'cause Syracuse has- Right ...

85:59

[01 26:17.604 – 01:26:18.635] her personal diaries.

86:00

[01 26:18.635 – 01:26:25.525] So I imag- because just like she would put details, I, I wanna say yes, because it just seems like- Right ...

86:07

[01 26:25.525 – 01:26:27.135] they were all in that boat together.

86:09

[01 26:27.135 – 01:26:31.035] It just, you know, it, yeah, I mean, it's, it would just be wonderful to have her name up there somewhere.

86:16

[01 26:31.035 – 01:26:31.315] Yeah.

86:17

[01 26:31.315 – 01:26:31.805] You know?

86:18

[01 26:31.805 – 01:26:34.785] And thank you for doing that, 'cause as we all know- Yeah ...

86:22

[01 26:34.785 – 01:26:37.915] do you wanna tell everyone who, who else has a stained glass there?

86:27

[01 26:37.915 – 01:26:40.305] Well, it's, uh, Rowland Hazard- Yes ...

86:29

[01 26:40.305 – 01:26:48.535] who went to go see Jung, and he's, Jung told him, "You have a, you need a spiritual experience to get sober, 'cause I can't help you." That's right.

86:38

[01 26:48.535 – 01:26:54.715] But then Rowland ended up helping Ebby, who ended up passing it on to Bill.

86:43

[01 26:54.715 – 01:26:55.134] Yeah.

86:44

[01 26:55.134 – 01:27:00.485] And it's like at their mission is where Bill first stood up and said, "I'm an alcoholic." Wow.

86:50

[01 27:00.485 – 01:27:01.275] But he was drunk.

86:52

[01 27:01.275 – 01:27:01.995] Yeah.

86:52

[01 27:01.995 – 01:27:02.425] You know?

86:53

[01 27:02.425 – 01:27:04.115] But doesn't matter.

86:54

[01 27:04.115 – 01:27:04.845] Um, it- Right ...

86:56

[01 27:04.845 – 01:27:09.115] it ended up well, but yeah, if anybody has any information about- Yeah ...

87:00

[01 27:09.115 – 01:27:09.495] those first people ...

87:01

[01 27:09.495 – 01:27:14.335] I'm gonna make a note of that, 'cause I want her name up there, but of course we have to have it in writing.

87:09

[01 27:14.335 – 01:27:17.435] So I, you know, I bet you anything it would be in her diary.

87:14

[01 27:17.435 – 01:27:19.015] My goodness, she's in New York.

87:16

[01 27:19.015 – 01:27:20.275] She, they're in cahoots.

87:18

[01 27:20.275 – 01:27:21.855] You know, we'll see.

87:19

[01 27:21.855 – 01:27:28.975] And of course, it's all about Sam Shoemaker at Calvary Church, so FYI, in case anyone didn't know that.

87:26

[01 27:28.975 – 01:27:29.895] All right, Joni.

87:27

[01 27:29.895 – 01:27:32.755] All right, Joni, you can unmute.

87:29

[01 27:32.755 – 01:27:37.675] Thank you very much for, for your, your talk.

87:32

[01 27:37.675 – 01:27:42.415] Uh, it just shows us that even if we don't get the message, we carry the message.

87:38

[01 27:42.415 – 01:27:42.515] Mm.

87:39

[01 27:42.515 – 01:27:45.995] That we are the message whether we, whether we practice it ourselves.

87:43

[01 27:45.995 – 01:27:56.175] You know, the person who, who got me here was somebody who, um, turn- turned out to, he, he didn't drink again, but maybe he should have,

87:52

[01 27:56.175 – 01:28:00.075] you know, because he was somebody who stopped drinking but didn't change anything else.

87:56

[01 28:00.075 – 01:28:00.695] Mm-hmm.

87:57

[01 28:00.695 – 01:28:00.935] You know?

87:58

[01 28:00.935 – 01:28:03.395] And, and, um, actually it was my father.

88:01

[01 28:03.395 – 01:28:14.095] But, uh, and anyway, um, I, I'm just so grateful that, that the, this last couple of decades we've been trying to, to draw out all these biographies

88:10

[01 28:14.095 – 01:28:21.675] and all these, you know, all the histories of these people, because that stuff, you know, goes away and we never, we never have access to it again.

88:19

[01 28:21.675 – 01:28:22.015] Mm.

88:20

[01 28:22.015 – 01:28:27.355] You know, and, and, um, I just celebrated 46 years on August 1st, and, um, I've got a lot going on.

88:26

[01 28:27.355 – 01:28:31.115] I've, you know, my husband is in, in skilled nursing with advanced Alzheimer's.

88:31

[01 28:31.115 – 01:28:32.515] We've been together 53 years.

88:32

[01 28:32.515 – 01:28:32.995] Mm.

88:33

[01 28:32.995 – 01:28:38.615] Um, and I've, I just, uh, went through round three of breast cancer.

88:38

[01 28:38.615 – 01:28:42.855] Um, we're in the middle of moving after 38 years, and I'm doing it by myself on two canes.

88:44

[01 28:42.855 – 01:28:49.815] It's, it's involved, but the, the, it, the people in this program rally around and help us when we need it.

88:51

[01 28:49.815 – 01:28:55.095] They don't do for us what we can do for ourselves, but they're, they're there when we genuinely need them.

88:57

[01 28:55.095 – 01:29:03.115] And, you know, just the, the, the strength of this fellowship is we're unique, especially in this time with everything that's going on in this country and in this world.

89:07

[01 29:03.115 – 01:29:06.795] We have a unique, genuine fellowship- Mm-hmm ...

89:10

[01 29:06.795 – 01:29:09.195] that saves lives, you know?

89:11

[01 29:09.195 – 01:29:13.395] And, and, you know, we're all teachers and we're all students, as the saying goes.

89:16

[01 29:13.395 – 01:29:14.755] Thank you very much.

89:18

[01 29:14.755 – 01:29:16.635] I really appreciated your time, for your share.

89:21

[01 29:16.635 – 01:29:18.455] Yeah, you're very welcome.

89:22

[01 29:18.455 – 01:29:19.635] You're very welcome.

89:24

[01 29:19.635 – 01:29:22.515] All right.

89:25

[01 29:22.515 – 01:29:32.535] Thank you so much for all of the questions, and if you were, uh, being shy tonight and didn't want to ask your question, I did share Miley's email

89:34

[01 29:32.535 – 01:29:33.655] address- Oh, good ...

89:35

[01 29:33.655 – 01:29:34.555] in the chat.

89:37

[01 29:34.555 – 01:29:38.495] So please, uh, feel free to send her your questions.

89:40

[01 29:38.495 – 01:29:43.435] And, um, thank you everyone for being here, and thank you again, Miley.

89:45

[01 29:43.435 – 01:29:43.485] Yes.

89:45

[01 29:43.485 – 01:29:53.575] You do such an amazing job sharing Marty's story, and, um, everyone that is still with us, please join us next week for another great

89:53

[01 29:53.575 – 01:30:00.615] presentation on Hank P., and I will now allow everyone to unmute and thank Miley.

89:59

[01 30:00.615 – 01:30:02.455] All right.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

marty mann presented by mily t – 2025-12-02

marty mann presented by mily t – 2025-12-02

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