little red book presented by Kesting – 2025-07-08

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Unknown Tuesday Night History Workshop • 2025

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Unknown Listen to Workshop Recording

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Unknown ABOUT THIS WORKSHOP

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Unknown Kesting speaking on "little red book" in Tuesday Night History Workshop (July 08, 2025). This recording is preserved in high-fidelity with interactive scrolling transcripts.

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Unknown Interactive Transcript

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[00 00:04.540 – 00:00:08.779] Um, welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop.

0:17

[00 00:08.779 – 00:00:11.140] Thank you everyone for joining us tonight.

0:20

[00 00:11.140 – 00:00:15.859] My name is Tim, and tonight we have Kesting C.

0:24

[00 00:15.859 – 00:00:26.219] presenting on The Little Red Book and, you know, the the Nicolette Group's long range sponsorship.

0:30

[00 00:26.219 – 00:00:32.140] And we meet every Tuesday night at the same time and at the same Zoom ID number.

0:36

[00 00:32.140 – 00:00:35.740] And next week will be Gary N.

0:39

[00 00:35.740 – 00:00:38.920] presenting on Bobby B and the traditions.

0:42

[00 00:38.920 – 00:00:40.500] That is July 15th.

0:44

[00 00:40.500 – 00:00:44.948] And then on July 22nd, we have Nancy K.

0:48

[00 00:44.948 – 00:00:55.030] from California, and she will be coming back with some friends of hers that went to the International Convention in Vancouver, and

0:56

[00 00:55.030 – 00:01:04.840] they'll be sharing their experience of, uh, what they ha- what they did in Vancouver and, uh, the atmosphere of it all and, and sharing it all with us.

1:07

[00 01:04.840 – 00:01:13.140] And then on the 29th, it is the last Tuesday of July, so it is our night for a conversation with a long-timer.

1:16

[00 01:13.140 – 00:01:16.180] So that is the rest of July there.

1:19

[00 01:16.180 – 00:01:20.040] And this meeting is being recorded.

1:21

[00 01:20.040 – 00:01:27.620] The audio from tonight's presentation as well as all of our past presentations can be found at recoveryspeakers.com.

1:29

[00 01:27.620 – 00:01:37.739] This meeting is not affiliated with any 12-step organization, although our goal is to focus on the history of AA and

1:37

[00 01:37.739 – 00:01:39.260] other 12-step fellowships.

1:38

[00 01:39.260 – 00:01:49.400] Recoveryspeakers.com is dedicated to preserving and making the audio history of AA and the 12-step movement available

1:45

[00 01:49.400 – 00:01:51.319] for everyone today and in the future.

1:48

[00 01:51.319 – 00:01:58.819] We share a daily email that features a different speaker talk from the Recovery Speakers audio library.

1:55

[00 01:58.819 – 00:02:07.079] Included in the daily emails are the flyers for the upcoming presentations here, and, uh, the recordings of this meeting.

2:02

[00 02:07.079 – 00:02:17.360] And if you would like to receive our daily email, you can subscribe through the link that I am going to be sharing in the chat in a moment, or you can send me, uh, an email

2:16

[00 02:17.360 – 00:02:23.359] at info@recoveryspeakers.com and I will get you added to our email list.

2:21

[00 02:23.359 – 00:02:29.389] Recovery Speakers is an official 501[c][3] public charity.

2:25

[00 02:29.389 – 00:02:34.489] If you are able to, we accept contributions which allow us to continue our work.

2:31

[00 02:34.489 – 00:02:45.400] And y- you can make contributions by using the QR code that is up on the screen, or you can, um uh,

2:39

[00 02:45.400 – 00:02:51.780] click the link that I will be sharing in the chat in a moment, and that brings you to our donation page as well.

2:48

[00 02:51.780 – 00:02:54.180] And, uh, we really appreciate all of your support.

2:52

[00 02:54.180 – 00:03:00.560] And now for tonight, um, for Kesting, we have his presentation tonight.

2:56

[00 03:00.560 – 00:03:03.919] Um, hopefully we have some time for questions at the end.

3:01

[00 03:03.919 – 00:03:12.500] So if you have any questions for Kesting about The Little Red Book, um, please write them down and be prepared to ask questions at the end of the meeting.

3:12

[00 03:12.500 – 00:03:17.080] And that is it for me for tonight.

3:15

[00 03:17.080 – 00:03:25.979] I am going to go ahead and turn it right over to Kesting, and really appreciate you coming on to share all your research and presentation that you've put together.

3:27

[00 03:25.979 – 00:03:28.539] And, uh, you can take it away.

3:30

[00 03:28.539 – 00:03:29.580] All right.

3:31

[00 03:29.580 – 00:03:29.919] Great.

3:31

[00 03:29.919 – 00:03:31.159] Thanks, Tim.

3:32

[00 03:31.159 – 00:03:33.349] Yep.

3:33

[00 03:33.349 – 00:03:36.020] Let me go ahead and share my screen.

3:36

[00 03:36.020 – 00:03:40.580] Share sound.

3:38

[00 03:40.580 – 00:03:41.080] Boom.

3:38

[00 03:41.080 – 00:03:43.500] Beginning.

3:39

[00 03:43.500 – 00:03:44.719] All right.

3:40

[00 03:44.719 – 00:03:47.539] So yes, my name is Kesting.

3:43

[00 03:47.539 – 00:03:52.060] Uh, some of you may have seen this presentation before.

3:47

[00 03:52.060 – 00:04:02.139] I'm going to try to do something a little bit different and spend some more time talking about elements which have struck me, right, you know, the same way

3:58

[00 04:02.139 – 00:04:12.139] that The Big Book is a diamond where if I shift it a little bit, I look at it from a new angle, the light refracts differently, and I hear, see, read something

4:10

[00 04:12.139 – 00:04:14.219] else and have an interpretation for that.

4:13

[00 04:14.219 – 00:04:24.220] So there was one section that I added in this that I discovered recently that I wanted to share, which if you own a really early version of The Little Red Book

4:25

[00 04:24.220 – 00:04:29.639] you won't see it, and if you own a later, uh, version of The Little Red Book you won't see it either.

4:33

[00 04:29.639 – 00:04:36.560] So it's not accessible, and it's very much aligned with the spirit of long range sponsorship, and very...

4:40

[00 04:36.560 – 00:04:42.040] It's an essay called Working with Others, which they subsequen- subsequently removed.

4:45

[00 04:42.040 – 00:04:46.360] So I'd like to s- spend some time talking about that.

4:49

[00 04:46.360 – 00:04:49.560] I'm probably gonna fly through a lot of slides.

4:53

[00 04:49.560 – 00:04:54.519] It's very painful for me to delete any slides to try to shorten it up.

4:59

[00 04:54.519 – 00:04:58.560] Um, so many of them I might go through fairly quickly.

5:03

[00 04:58.560 – 00:05:08.860] If you are looking for a more in-depth, like, very detail-oriented, um, you can certainly listen to one of the, um, previous

5:11

[00 05:08.860 – 00:05:13.819] times that I shared, um, this slide deck before as well.

5:16

[00 05:13.819 – 00:05:19.319] So there may be some folks who are unfamiliar with The Little Red Book.

5:21

[00 05:19.319 – 00:05:25.000] While this is quite detailed, I'll also try to provide a little bit of context for this book.

5:28

[00 05:25.000 – 00:05:31.759] It is also not AA conference approved literature, although it was offered, uh, to be that.

5:34

[00 05:31.759 – 00:05:41.199] And also proceeds from the book were also offered, or a portion of them, both of which AA graciously declined.

5:42

[00 05:41.199 – 00:05:43.600] But this book w- continued to be published.

5:45

[00 05:43.600 – 00:05:46.420] Hazelden publishes it today.

5:47

[00 05:46.420 – 00:05:55.379] It's had, uh, widespread, like, notoriety as well as people utilizing it.

5:52

[00 05:55.379 – 00:06:03.319] And so I hope to fill in some gaps, answer some questions at the end, and share a little bit more than perhaps I typically do.

6:02

[00 06:03.319 – 00:06:13.360] And also introduce this essay that I found, which I thought really captured a lot of AA's struggle with unity as well

6:10

[00 06:13.360 – 00:06:23.439] as, like, the beauty, beauty of unity and just 12-step work in general, and how that can be an individual and group responsibility, and how that might look different,

6:21

[00 06:23.439 – 00:06:28.920] um, you know, across different settings, different areas and communities, groups and individuals alike.

6:26

[00 06:28.920 – 00:06:33.480] So let's get through some setting the stage first.

6:30

[00 06:33.480 – 00:06:36.259] So why study The Little Red Book?

6:33

[00 06:36.259 – 00:06:45.189] Um, it's really the f- first book that was published after The Big Book of AA material, though it was, again, not published by AA

6:42

[00 06:45.338 – 00:06:45.478] A.

6:43

[00 06:45.478 – 00:06:54.038] There was one other booklet published before, which does predate from, uh, Richmond W.

6:49

[00 06:54.038 – 00:06:59.098] I think it was called For Drunks Only, but it was really kind of more of like a pamphlet booklet.

6:56

[00 06:59.098 – 00:07:02.688] But this is the first hardcover book that you could purchase.

7:01

[00 07:02.688 – 00:07:12.838] It also gives us some insight into what was early AA like, and I think there's a good argument that this is the closest book we have to perhaps what

7:12

[00 07:12.838 – 00:07:12.998] Dr.

7:13

[00 07:12.998 – 00:07:14.938] Bob's interpretation would have been.

7:15

[00 07:14.938 – 00:07:18.498] We also have those early Akron pamphlets as well.

7:19

[00 07:18.498 – 00:07:23.818] Um, however, like, this would probably be the most comprehensive, and Dr.

7:23

[00 07:23.818 – 00:07:24.738] Bob did read it.

7:25

[00 07:24.738 – 00:07:34.958] He did enjoy it, and it is written in a more accessible, simpler language than, say, opening up, like, the doctor's opinion or some

7:34

[00 07:34.958 – 00:07:42.418] parts of The Big Book, which are really sort of like ostentatious in some of its verbiage and how it influenced sponsorship.

7:43

[00 07:42.418 – 00:07:44.998] So I hope to talk a little bit about that tonight.

7:47

[00 07:44.998 – 00:07:50.298] Here's some of the sources I used.

7:50

[00 07:50.298 – 00:07:51.858] We'll just fly through that.

7:52

[00 07:51.858 – 00:08:00.578] So in order to set the stage, we're gonna talk about specifically three Minnesota pioneers.

7:58

[00 08:00.578 – 00:08:09.458] We have, uh, Barry C., who was actually AA number one in Minnesota.

8:03

[00 08:09.458 – 00:08:16.818] We have Pat C., who was AA number two.

8:07

[00 08:16.818 – 00:08:19.938] Some people mistakenly believe he was number one.

8:10

[00 08:19.938 – 00:08:20.838] He was not.

8:11

[00 08:20.838 – 00:08:28.118] And then our primary author of The Little Red Book and also other Colweb literature, uh, Ed W.

8:18

[00 08:28.118 – 00:08:33.078] Here is Barry C.

8:20

[00 08:33.078 – 00:08:37.158] And have some statistics on him.

8:23

[00 08:37.158 – 00:08:46.418] Spouse, when he was born, when he passed away, his gravestone, and he was born and buried in Minneapolis, but also lived in Wisconsin.

8:32

[00 08:46.418 – 00:08:49.418] He was a salesman, like a lot of the early AAs.

8:36

[00 08:49.418 – 00:08:56.277] Um, and a little bit about him and n- so he's one of the individuals who published The Little Red Book.

8:44

[00 08:56.277 – 00:08:57.918] That's why we're spending a little bit of time.

8:48

[00 08:57.918 – 00:08:58.778] Was he an author?

8:50

[00 08:58.778 – 00:08:59.058] No.

8:50

[00 08:59.058 – 00:09:07.598] Did he have input and edits, and was he very much Ed's partner in publishing?

8:56

[00 09:07.598 – 00:09:08.518] Absolutely.

8:57

[00 09:08.518 – 00:09:10.578] So he is important to talk about.

9:00

[00 09:10.578 – 00:09:21.078] In 1940, Barry received a letter from a fr- a friend, Chan F., in Chicago, and in that letter, he was also given

9:08

[00 09:21.078 – 00:09:23.678] what would have been the first AA pamphlet.

9:11

[00 09:23.678 – 00:09:25.488] Um, so this is April 1940.

9:14

[00 09:25.488 – 00:09:26.978] That would have been the Larry J.

9:16

[00 09:26.978 – 00:09:28.438] pamphlet.

9:17

[00 09:28.438 – 00:09:38.878] And actually, Barry's wife replied saying it was too late, that Barry was, uh, w- was beyond help, which I think is, um, you know, not uncommon

9:27

[00 09:38.878 – 00:09:39.338] among us.

9:28

[00 09:39.338 – 00:09:49.398] Uh, however, Barry was ready for change, and he did sober up while he was in the hospital, and he became close friends with our author, Ed W., who would later publish

9:41

[00 09:49.398 – 00:09:50.578] The Little Red Book with him.

9:43

[00 09:50.578 – 00:09:59.097] And Barry would go on to become an integral part of the Alano Club Society and become a founder of the Nicolette Group with Ed W.

9:53

[00 09:59.097 – 00:10:01.798] So they founded that AA group.

9:55

[00 10:01.798 – 00:10:05.138] Uh, and here's actually that letter, Chan F.

9:59

[00 10:05.138 – 00:10:07.338] writing to Barry and sending the pamphlet.

10:02

[00 10:07.338 – 00:10:13.778] And we're gonna talk a little bit about Pat C.

10:06

[00 10:13.778 – 00:10:18.898] And he went by Pat even though you can see his first name was, uh, Bernard.

10:12

[00 10:18.898 – 00:10:27.798] Okay, and when did he sober up?

10:15

[00 10:27.798 – 00:10:29.648] Ah, November 11, 1940.

10:16

[00 10:29.648 – 00:10:33.098] He has an interesting getting sober story.

10:19

[00 10:33.098 – 00:10:35.578] He'd read about AA in a magazine in 1940.

10:22

[00 10:35.578 – 00:10:37.438] I'm not sure which magazine this was.

10:25

[00 10:37.438 – 00:10:38.918] It could have been a Times article.

10:28

[00 10:38.918 – 00:10:45.238] He, like a lot of the early AAs, was exposed to the Oxford Group.

10:33

[00 10:45.238 – 00:10:50.218] Uh, Richmond W., author of The Little Black Book, or 24 Hours a Day.

10:38

[00 10:50.218 – 00:10:54.578] Another example, of course, Bill and Bob separately.

10:42

[00 10:54.578 – 00:11:01.998] And it really just goes to show how big the Oxford Group was in the '30s and '40s, even though they would change their name.

10:52

[00 11:01.998 – 00:11:06.668] And if you don't know what Keeley or Keeley League is, I'm not gonna go into that.

10:58

[00 11:06.668 – 00:11:09.578] I am not, uh, the best person to speak on it.

11:03

[00 11:09.578 – 00:11:12.078] But Pat was also exposed to that.

11:06

[00 11:12.078 – 00:11:17.718] Pat accidentally discovered The Big Book in the public library with a stolen library card.

11:12

[00 11:17.718 – 00:11:22.618] He checked it out, and he returned it three years later, actually.

11:16

[00 11:22.618 – 00:11:27.998] And in August 1940, he wrote a letter to the Alcohol- Alcoholic Foundation.

11:21

[00 11:27.998 – 00:11:35.478] So he wrote a letter to AA, received a reply, and it included the AA pamphlet, assuming it's the same pamphlet.

11:29

[00 11:35.478 – 00:11:45.558] And then later in the year, November ninth, 1940, he would be 12-stepped by Chan F., who also wrote the letter to Barry, and Bill L.

11:38

[00 11:45.558 – 00:11:55.748] 'Cause back in that day, like, they, you know, would give out 12-step work to people to essentially go visit or when you were traveling, uh, people

11:49

[00 11:55.748 – 00:11:56.938] who reached out for help.

11:51

[00 11:56.938 – 00:12:04.498] You know, later they would ask groups, like, "Here's a list of people who outreached in your area." So this is very much an example where Chan F.

12:01

[00 12:04.498 – 00:12:06.438] and Bill L., uh, went there.

12:04

[00 12:06.438 – 00:12:08.448] And they went there on Armistice Day.

12:07

[00 12:08.448 – 00:12:14.598] It was a blizzard, and because of the blizzard, they had two more days to work on Pat and sobering him up.

12:15

[00 12:14.598 – 00:12:17.718] And November 11, 1940, Pat C.

12:17

[00 12:17.718 – 00:12:22.738] became AA number two, although he was entirely unaware of Barry C.

12:22

[00 12:22.738 – 00:12:29.998] Um, guess we're not gonna talk a lot about Pat tonight.

12:26

[00 12:29.998 – 00:12:31.438] I won't go through all of these.

12:29

[00 12:31.438 – 00:12:37.918] But he's, in a lot of ways, the star of Minnesota, Minneapolis AA.

12:34

[00 12:37.918 – 00:12:40.998] He would serve as a trustee to AA.

12:37

[00 12:40.998 – 00:12:51.318] He worked, uh, professionally in the alco- on the, in the alcoholic, um, treatment realm, substance use realm with alcohol,

12:45

[00 12:51.318 – 00:12:57.758] and he even asked Bill if it was okay if, you know, he were a counselor, kind of director at Pioneer House.

12:53

[00 12:57.758 – 00:13:06.558] And Bill capturing the spirit of the eighth tradition was like, "Yes, you'd be filling the role more of a social worker," in the letter that I read.

13:04

[00 13:06.558 – 00:13:09.678] So it wasn't professionalizing the 12th step.

13:07

[00 13:09.678 – 00:13:12.558] It wasn't AA having a professional class.

13:10

[00 13:12.558 – 00:13:20.578] It was you as a person are doing this, and you might be well-equipped to do this based on your lived experience and your knowledge of alcoholism.

13:20

[00 13:20.578 – 00:13:30.308] And one of the suggestions that Pat got because he encountered a lot of the same struggles that, uh-

13:27

[00 13:30.664 – 00:13:40.704] Many of the pioneers encountered was, you know, finding sober people to form a group, and, uh, so suggested that he go find a captive audience, and

13:37

[00 13:40.704 – 00:13:43.884] that was the Minnesota Sanitarium there.

13:40

[00 13:43.884 – 00:13:47.554] There are some talks that he gives that are on recovery speakers.

13:45

[00 13:47.554 – 00:13:49.964] Wonderful speaker.

13:46

[00 13:49.964 – 00:13:59.344] And, uh, vocationally, now vocationally, it's estimated he helped about thirty thousand alcoholics, and six hundred people attended his funeral.

13:54

[00 13:59.344 – 00:14:03.364] Here's a nice picture of his wife and him.

13:57

[00 14:03.364 – 00:14:10.354] Now we're gonna talk about Ed W., who is our, uh, author of The Little Red Book.

14:04

[00 14:10.354 – 00:14:17.584] As you can see displayed here, we have actually, uh, there are four books that he wrote.

14:10

[00 14:17.584 – 00:14:23.544] I'm not gonna go into detail so much on the other three, but just to summarize what they were.

14:18

[00 14:23.544 – 00:14:31.324] We have The Little Red Book first, which was August nineteen forty-eight, Stools and Bottles, Barroom Reveries, and Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities.

14:26

[00 14:31.324 – 00:14:37.604] Some more pictures of him, his statistics.

14:29

[00 14:37.604 – 00:14:46.204] He served in the Navy twice, and he was very, very handy, and also a businessman.

14:35

[00 14:46.204 – 00:14:56.424] Um, and he actually functioned quite well while he was drinking and was employed up until

14:41

[00 14:56.424 – 00:15:00.864] the end of his drinking when he actually lost his job as a result.

14:47

[00 15:00.864 – 00:15:02.884] So that was toward the end of nineteen forty-one.

14:50

[00 15:02.884 – 00:15:12.684] And, uh, might mention it later, but the, um, the Jack Alexander article, his wife came across that.

14:57

[00 15:12.684 – 00:15:16.844] She was actually the one that made the call, and two men came and 12-step Ed.

15:03

[00 15:16.844 – 00:15:24.824] And essentially, like he would detox in the meeting room uh, while Barry arranged a hospital stay.

15:10

[00 15:24.824 – 00:15:35.024] And Ed would go on to help facilitate these beginners classes, and he became lifelong friends with Barry and of course Pat

15:18

[00 15:35.024 – 00:15:42.784] as well, he would be close to, and go on to publish three additional books after The Little Red Book too.

15:26

[00 15:42.784 – 00:15:49.744] So this is the Alano Club, also called the original group or the mother club.

15:32

[00 15:49.744 – 00:15:59.904] And I'm not gonna go into a ton of detail on this, but this essentially would become the first clubhouse which would hold the original group

15:42

[00 15:59.904 – 00:16:00.644] and groups.

15:43

[00 16:00.644 – 00:16:04.904] They would sometimes call them s- uh, they would call them squads, right?

15:48

[00 16:04.904 – 00:16:13.824] But they all shared the same location, which was incorporated separately, like our clubhouses are, in connection to our sixth tradition.

15:56

[00 16:13.824 – 00:16:15.304] Okay.

15:57

[00 16:15.304 – 00:16:18.644] So this first Minneapolis group, it moved several times.

16:01

[00 16:18.644 – 00:16:19.884] I have some of that there.

16:03

[00 16:19.884 – 00:16:24.804] And it would become incorporated in nineteen forty-two.

16:06

[00 16:24.804 – 00:16:29.324] So this is, you know, shortly after a lot of these folks got sober here.

16:12

[00 16:29.324 – 00:16:29.824] But Pat C.

16:14

[00 16:29.824 – 00:16:31.664] would be the president, Barry C.

16:16

[00 16:31.664 – 00:16:34.764] would be the vice president, and some other folks.

16:20

[00 16:34.764 – 00:16:40.844] Here's some pictures inside of the club from Look magazine.

16:24

[00 16:40.844 – 00:16:50.384] And Bill, uh, Bill Wilson did a few visits to Minnesota.

16:28

[00 16:50.384 – 00:17:00.824] His first one was in nineteen forty-one, according to the book Courage to Change, not to be confused with the, uh, the kinda Al-Anon related literature.

16:38

[00 17:00.824 – 00:17:07.784] Uh, and this is a picture of him from June nineteen forty-three at twenty-two eighteen at Alano Club.

16:45

[00 17:07.784 – 00:17:11.344] This is another picture of him.

16:48

[00 17:11.344 – 00:17:12.364] It's a great picture.

16:49

[00 17:12.364 – 00:17:20.764] And this is a more contemporary picture of what it looks like in, uh, you know, the two thousands.

16:57

[00 17:20.764 – 00:17:22.944] So there was a split.

16:59

[00 17:22.944 – 00:17:25.904] We talked about three pioneering members.

17:01

[00 17:25.904 – 00:17:35.944] They're all, you know, at this club, and there was a split that would then go on to form another group, and this other group would become the Nicolette group.

17:13

[00 17:35.944 – 00:17:46.644] And that is a group that would be started by Ed and Barry, and very much like that group would y- you know, e- essentially,

17:22

[00 17:46.644 – 00:17:52.384] you know, adopt a lot of the 12-step style that, that Ed and Barry had, right?

17:28

[00 17:52.384 – 00:18:02.504] So in some ways, even though it was Ed doing the writing and Barry helping with the publishing and maybe some of the editing, the, the, The Little Red Book and some of the other

17:41

[00 18:02.504 – 00:18:07.784] literature that came out are very much an extension of the Nicolette group.

17:46

[00 18:07.784 – 00:18:15.784] And they were a bit more conservative in their approach and who would be a member and talk a little bit about that as well.

17:56

[00 18:15.784 – 00:18:23.564] The reasons for the split, not entirely clear, but a little bit of speculation is warranted.

18:02

[00 18:23.564 – 00:18:33.714] And here is a quotation from the book, The Story Behind the Little Red Book by Damian McElrath, which was one of the sources that I used.

18:12

[00 18:33.714 – 00:18:38.004] "It is not easy to get a handle on precisely why the break occurred.

18:18

[00 18:38.004 – 00:18:44.144] There are many sources that point to some general dissatisfaction about the way that Alano Club was run.

18:25

[00 18:44.144 – 00:18:54.524] It also appears that the members who were divorcing themselves from the Alano Club were unhappy with what they felt was the lenient manner in which new members were accepted

18:36

[00 18:54.524 – 00:19:03.784] into the club, some of whom they felt were not truly alcoholic." And so here we encounter, right, as I said, we can speculate a little bit.

18:46

[00 19:03.784 – 00:19:07.244] Here we encounter third tradition stuff.

18:49

[00 19:07.244 – 00:19:08.324] Who is a member?

18:51

[00 19:08.324 – 00:19:11.334] And this, the, these are early days.

18:53

[00 19:11.334 – 00:19:12.444] This is nineteen forties.

18:55

[00 19:12.444 – 00:19:22.644] The, uh, the 12 points to assure, right, you know, the traditions, all that, that didn't r- appear until nineteen forty-six, and that was in the grapevine, and our traditions would not be adopted

19:08

[00 19:22.644 – 00:19:24.464] until nineteen fifty.

19:09

[00 19:24.464 – 00:19:29.664] And so, you know, there, there's a, a trial period going on here.

19:14

[00 19:29.664 – 00:19:35.124] And there was a lot of communication with New York, specifically with Bobby B.

19:20

[00 19:35.124 – 00:19:38.604] And here's a letter, Pat C.

19:22

[00 19:38.604 – 00:19:41.784] to Bobby B., and talking about that split.

19:26

[00 19:41.784 – 00:19:51.884] And it was maybe a more amicable break from the mother group, from the Alano Club, um, than might otherwise be suggested.

19:34

[00 19:51.884 – 00:19:55.544] So here's Pat writing to Bobby in New York.

19:38

[00 19:55.544 – 00:20:01.784] "It becomes my duty to advise you that there are now two AA groups in Minneapolis.

19:44

[00 20:01.784 – 00:20:09.464] Like all other group members, mostly in one squad, who have definite views of their own, the dissenting crowd are headed by Barry C.

19:53

[00 20:09.464 – 00:20:11.744] There are no hard feelings on our part.

19:56

[00 20:11.744 – 00:20:15.444] I do not know the attitude of the twelve to the fifteen who went with Barry."

20:02

[00 20:17.269 – 00:20:17.829] So Bobbie B.

20:04

[00 20:17.829 – 00:20:21.489] is at the Alcoholic Foundation replying to letters, of course.

20:08

[00 20:21.489 – 00:20:30.589] So had about a dozen plus people who were in a squad at the original Alano Club who broke off to form the Nicolette group.

20:17

[00 20:30.589 – 00:20:31.549] And Bobbie B.

20:19

[00 20:31.549 – 00:20:32.669] actually writes back.

20:20

[00 20:32.669 – 00:20:38.369] It says, "Life in AA holds many surprises, and incidentally is never dull.

20:25

[00 20:38.369 – 00:20:46.189] The phase you people are now going through is a common one, but somehow I just never thought it would hit Minneapolis." So she has an affection here.

20:36

[00 20:46.189 – 00:20:47.988] "But it is understandable.

20:38

[00 20:47.988 – 00:20:56.449] We do all huddle together when first joining AA, and our common problem keeps us from holding forth too much on individual rights and ideas.

20:47

[00 20:56.449 – 00:21:02.449] And in any group of human beings, there are bound to be conflicting ideas, such as who is a member.

20:55

[00 21:02.449 – 00:21:04.849] Who's to say who's right and who wrong?

20:58

[00 21:04.849 – 00:21:11.909] Often it takes experiment and trial to settle this question." And that was January 14th, nineteen forty-four.

21:05

[00 21:11.909 – 00:21:21.949] Beautiful example of Bobbie capturing the spirit of the first and fourth traditions, and she would be a big part of Bill's formulating the

21:14

[00 21:21.949 – 00:21:30.329] traditions 'cause they're getting all this correspondence from all around the country and all these problems emerging, and they're trying to figure out how to respond to them.

21:24

[00 21:30.329 – 00:21:35.269] And, and this is really how the traditions are forged, right?

21:29

[00 21:35.269 – 00:21:45.449] Like through experience, but they're, they're getting it indirectly through all these groups in this aggregate fashion, um, that helped shape what these traditions might look like

21:39

[00 21:45.449 – 00:21:52.629] for our long-term survival, which translates into how do we, how do we, how do we keep unified?

21:46

[00 21:52.629 – 00:22:03.009] Okay, there's some other letters about treasury stuff, more correspondence between Pat and Bobbie,

21:51

[00 22:03.009 – 00:22:05.949] and a little bit more about the split.

21:54

[00 22:05.949 – 00:22:10.289] "With the exception of one or two members, I have no quarrel with the Nicolette group.

22:01

[00 22:10.289 – 00:22:20.569] The thing I consider very unfair and underhanded is the practice which continues of these one or two members proselytizing among our members to induce

22:10

[00 22:20.569 – 00:22:21.709] them to make the switch.

22:12

[00 22:21.709 – 00:22:31.829] The original group dried these people up, and now when they are in a position to do some work, the other group tries to entice them away." And that was Pat again writing

22:25

[00 22:31.829 – 00:22:34.199] to Bobbie, uh, several years later.

22:27

[00 22:34.199 – 00:22:36.709] This is in the summer of nineteen forty-four.

22:30

[00 22:36.709 – 00:22:47.209] So what we notice here is a little bit of, you know, Pat is begrudging some of the behavior of a few individuals

22:39

[00 22:47.209 – 00:22:53.219] in the, in the Nicolette group, you know, referring to that approach from his perspective as proselytizing.

22:46

[00 22:53.219 – 00:23:00.469] Basically coming in and preaching and trying to poach these folks going, "Hey, you know, we, we know the way.

22:53

[00 23:00.469 – 00:23:10.669] Um, these other folks are maybe not, are, are not doing it well, not doing it the right way, or maybe even flat out doing it wrong." Um, and they're more than just

23:06

[00 23:10.669 – 00:23:20.708] inviting, saying, "Hey, why don't you come over here and see what we have?" But more really trying to actively recruit is the spirit of what I'm getting from this letter, and

23:18

[00 23:20.709 – 00:23:21.649] Pat doesn't love that.

23:20

[00 23:21.649 – 00:23:31.789] He says, "I don't have really much of a problem with it." And for those who are sober in a fellowship, AA or otherwise, maybe you've

23:29

[00 23:31.789 – 00:23:41.829] had similar, um, events or experiences where people come in and they judge the, um, you know, they, they, they judge the, the clubhouse, and they go,

23:40

[00 23:41.829 – 00:23:43.889] "We're the perfect and sobriety group," right?

23:43

[00 23:43.889 – 00:23:53.469] So here are some of the, uh, shortcomings from individual and groups kinda manifesting here is, is what I read from it.

23:51

[00 23:53.469 – 00:23:57.689] So what are some potential factors in the break?

23:55

[00 23:57.689 – 00:24:07.869] Because the Nicolette group would, you know, then go on to have their own group and be organized the way that they would like to be organized,

24:05

[00 24:07.869 – 00:24:13.649] and shortly after that, we get the publication of the Little Red Book and subsequent publications.

24:11

[00 24:13.649 – 00:24:20.349] So there were certainly some differences in how to direct funds and for what purposes.

24:17

[00 24:20.349 – 00:24:26.629] Money can be one of those, uh, delicate topics in groups.

24:21

[00 24:26.629 – 00:24:30.069] Um, sometimes it's as simple as what coffee to get.

24:25

[00 24:30.069 – 00:24:36.109] There were disagreements on how to run the club at the Alano Club.

24:30

[00 24:36.109 – 00:24:40.969] There were likely conflicts of personality, such as the letter that I just read.

24:36

[00 24:40.969 – 00:24:51.089] Possibly, there was political infighting, also mentioned in that letter, and philosophical differences on who could become a member.

24:43

[00 24:51.089 – 00:25:01.089] So there was clearly the strong sentiment that, um, from, from the folks who would go on to form the Nicolette

24:51

[00 25:01.089 – 00:25:08.169] group that we are here to qualify and help the real alcoholic, essentially.

24:56

[00 25:08.169 – 00:25:18.379] And if you're not the same type of alcoholic we are, not only do we believe we can't be so effective in helping you, we don't even believe necessarily that,

25:07

[00 25:18.379 – 00:25:20.629] you know, you should be a member in AA.

25:11

[00 25:20.629 – 00:25:31.109] And again, context and the setting, the time period that they were in, and some of these same, um, sentiments e-exist

25:19

[00 25:31.109 – 00:25:31.469] today.

25:20

[00 25:31.469 – 00:25:41.729] So on the other hand, uh, the Alano Club was much more ecu-ecunomical, uh, ecumenical,

25:26

[00 25:41.729 – 00:25:42.399] universal.

25:26

[00 25:42.399 – 00:25:45.189] Sorry, I, uh, stumbled on that word.

25:29

[00 25:45.189 – 00:25:49.349] So they had very universal approach where it was very much more open, right?

25:35

[00 25:49.349 – 00:25:54.559] If you think about the short form of the third tradition, it's like, "Hey, do you have a desire to stop drinking?" Right?

25:43

[00 25:54.559 – 00:26:02.369] So they, they weren't there grilling people, qualifying them to make sure that, "Oh, are you the real deal?" The same way it's described in the Big Book.

25:54

[00 26:02.369 – 00:26:12.549] And in fact, I would argue that the Big Book describes alcoholism in a dimensional way where there is a spectrum, and it's less so much as a,

26:04

[00 26:12.549 – 00:26:19.189] as a, you know, um, a cucumber and a pickle, although that is talked about as well in the Big Book to some degree.

26:14

[00 26:19.189 – 00:26:25.269] So Nicolette was much more exclusive than it was inclusive.

26:18

[00 26:25.269 – 00:26:26.829] They qualified members.

26:19

[00 26:26.829 – 00:26:31.109] They were also very much an example of a family group, right?

26:24

[00 26:31.109 – 00:26:33.309] Spouses were expected to attend.

26:26

[00 26:33.309 – 00:26:35.489] It was invitation only.

26:28

[00 26:35.489 – 00:26:36.849] You did not just show up.

26:30

[00 26:36.849 – 00:26:40.288] You did not just look them up on, you know, your intergroup website.

26:35

[00 26:40.288 – 00:26:44.899] Although they were not reclusive, they did have visitors come.

26:39

[00 26:44.899 – 00:26:48.109] They were quite book-centric.

26:41

[00 26:48.109 – 00:26:52.969] And the Nicolette group, they really only wanted to deal with the real alcoholic.

26:47

[00 26:52.969 – 00:26:55.269] Additionally, they revered Dr.

26:49

[00 26:55.269 – 00:27:00.889] Bob, and they tried to model themselves somewhat on the King School group, which was

26:54

[00 27:01.135 – 00:27:05.975] AA group number one, if you don't count kind of the alcoholic squad stuff in New York.

27:01

[00 27:05.975 – 00:27:15.995] So our author, Ed W, he became a stalwart member of the Nicolette group and which, and he and Barry were, I say this with a lot of love, like, kinda

27:13

[00 27:15.995 – 00:27:17.134] hard line AAs.

27:14

[00 27:17.134 – 00:27:27.235] Very book-centric, very solution-focused, and, uh, Nicolette employed the term real alcoholics and introduced themselves as alcoholics in meetings,

27:21

[00 27:27.235 – 00:27:29.615] so that's an early example.

27:23

[00 27:29.615 – 00:27:35.315] And don't know who said this or where this quotation comes from.

27:28

[00 27:35.315 – 00:27:42.555] The book, The Story Behind the Little Red Book, is not especially rich in citations, but I will share this.

27:36

[00 27:42.555 – 00:27:53.035] It says, "Slipping is unnecessary and will not be tolerated at Nicolette." Doesn't sound like something that Ed would say, though, based on reading

27:45

[00 27:53.035 – 00:27:56.675] what he's written and hearing his talks.

27:48

[00 27:56.675 – 00:28:01.255] This is also from that history book on the Little Red Book.

27:53

[00 28:01.255 – 00:28:03.215] "AA is for alcoholics only.

27:55

[00 28:03.215 – 00:28:13.435] We cannot help others, potential alcoholics, heavy drinkers, et cetera, who are only looking for a means to get off the hook." And that is one

28:05

[00 28:13.435 – 00:28:23.515] of the ideas that's offered in The Little Red Book was originally they had a list of people who this, "We really haven't had great success if you fall

28:16

[00 28:23.515 – 00:28:27.335] into any one of these categories," and maybe there were, were nine of them.

28:21

[00 28:27.335 – 00:28:38.015] And one of them was, like, the potential alcoholics or the heavy drinkers, like those who were just, like, got into trouble and were looking to, uh, evade consequences.

28:32

[00 28:38.015 – 00:28:48.115] They were really interested in who had an honest desire to stop drinking, were doing it for that reason, and

28:40

[00 28:48.115 – 00:28:52.455] had really conceded to their innermost self that they are powerless.

28:44

[00 28:52.455 – 00:28:57.795] So this is from 1964.

28:46

[00 28:57.795 – 00:29:03.225] It's an unpublished draft from Nicolette's 20th anniversary.

28:49

[00 29:03.225 – 00:29:08.315] I, I think it captures, again, some of the spirit of Nicolette.

28:54

[00 29:08.315 – 00:29:11.055] "We talk about the Big Book and our brand of AA.

28:58

[00 29:11.055 – 00:29:15.925] If they want to water it down, they are welcome to go to other groups where this is the practice.

29:06

[00 29:15.925 – 00:29:19.635] All answers are in the Big Book with help from the Little Red Book.

29:11

[00 29:19.635 – 00:29:23.495] These are the only references to be used when conducting a group meeting.

29:16

[00 29:23.495 – 00:29:33.635] The proper indoctrination of the new members occurs through step classes, generally two sessions a year, spring and fall." And I don't know who

29:25

[00 29:33.635 – 00:29:43.835] wrote that or where that came from, but we're seeing a couple of ideas spring out of just this short

29:33

[00 29:43.835 – 00:29:49.495] paragraph, which is this idea of AA's message being watered down.

29:37

[00 29:49.495 – 00:29:54.415] This is not a new idea.

29:40

[00 29:54.415 – 00:30:03.615] When we talk about weak tea and strong tea AA, that was something, um, Tom P, uh, would write about.

29:48

[00 30:03.615 – 00:30:10.615] When you think about the white paper, that was written anonymously, but if you listen to a lot of speaker tapes, you kinda know who that is.

29:58

[00 30:10.615 – 00:30:11.375] Right?

29:59

[00 30:11.375 – 00:30:19.335] This is not, this is not something that happened in AA in 1980, and all of a sudden, like, all the Big Books disappear.

30:07

[00 30:19.335 – 00:30:29.355] This isn't something, you know, like, this has existed essentially since the beginning, and, and I'm sure that similarities could be

30:15

[00 30:29.355 – 00:30:32.875] extrapolated from even the early days, like with the Oxford Group.

30:20

[00 30:32.875 – 00:30:35.735] And like, "What are you doing working on those drunks?

30:24

[00 30:35.735 – 00:30:43.175] They're not gonna be able to create the change and the social movement that, that, that we're really looking to do." Like, this is the Oxford Group message.

30:34

[00 30:43.175 – 00:30:53.715] "What are you doing wasting your time with them?" So y- I think you can go as far back as you need to to really see that there are different not

30:46

[00 30:53.715 – 00:30:58.635] just opinions, but philosophies on, on the message.

30:49

[00 30:58.635 – 00:31:04.435] Okay, so that was one idea, the weak tea, strong tea, watered down.

30:54

[00 31:04.435 – 00:31:08.975] Also this idea of Big Book and Little Red Book.

30:58

[00 31:08.975 – 00:31:18.994] These are the only references to be used, and this is also what was available, um, keeping in mind that the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions was not published

31:09

[00 31:18.994 – 00:31:26.035] until, um, you know, 1950, uh, three-ish, um, spring, summer.

31:13

[00 31:26.035 – 00:31:34.065] And the proper indoctrination of new members through step classes, and we'll talk a little bit about step classes.

31:20

[00 31:34.065 – 00:31:38.235] This also occurred early on and was very useful early on.

31:24

[00 31:38.235 – 00:31:40.795] Um, think about back to basics.

31:27

[00 31:40.795 – 00:31:45.115] That's an example of step classes, so we'll talk a little bit more about that.

31:33

[00 31:45.115 – 00:31:55.335] All right, some letters about how Nicolette did support

31:36

[00 31:55.335 – 00:31:56.855] Alcoholics Anonymous as a whole.

31:39

[00 31:56.855 – 00:31:58.015] They made contributions.

31:40

[00 31:58.015 – 00:32:00.035] They registered their group with New York.

31:43

[00 32:00.035 – 00:32:05.895] And I'd like to share this soundbite because it's enough of me talking already.

31:49

[00 32:05.895 – 00:32:07.775] This is Ed W.

31:50

[00 32:07.775 – 00:32:10.435] speaking in Chicago in 1965.

31:52

[00 32:10.435 – 00:32:12.394] It's, um, an anniversary meeting.

31:54

[00 32:12.394 – 00:32:15.715] It's the, it's their intergroup anniversary meeting.

31:57

[00 32:15.715 – 00:32:26.115] Let me go ahead and play that, and please turn up your volume if it's not very loud because I do not have

32:06

[00 32:26.115 – 00:32:27.015] control there.

32:07

[00 32:27.015 – 00:32:37.055] Providentially for us, the members of our group decided that this authority sh- would be an orthodox interpretation of the Big Book,

32:15

[00 32:37.055 – 00:32:47.055] Alcoholics Anonymous, particularly of the 12 steps of our program, and that's exactly what it has been for me, a supreme authority over the

32:24

[00 32:47.055 – 00:32:47.375] years.

32:25

[00 32:47.375 – 00:32:49.535] The Big Book should be.

32:27

[00 32:49.535 – 00:32:52.835] It was written by alcoholics, for alcoholics.

32:30

[00 32:52.835 – 00:32:58.455] It was taken by the experience, from the experience rather, of the first 100 members in AA.

32:36

[00 32:58.455 – 00:33:07.175] It is the only authoritative source of information that you and I dare trust, that we may trust our lives to safely.

32:45

[00 33:07.175 – 00:33:11.715] It is the only book that contains all of the answers to our daily problems.

32:50

[00 33:11.715 – 00:33:18.175] Now, these answers are there, but they are not always obvious to the occasional reader of the book.

32:57

[00 33:18.175 – 00:33:22.415] But they are quite apparent to the member who is a daily student of the book.

33:04

[00 33:22.415 – 00:33:23.935] You can believe that.

33:05

[00 33:23.935 – 00:33:28.695] Provident- Ed is not claiming to be a founder.

33:09

[00 33:28.695 – 00:33:33.555] He is not claiming that I've written a book better than the Big Book.

33:14

[00 33:33.555 – 00:33:42.075] He showed perpetual deference to the Big Book and really viewed it as the authority.

33:20

[00 33:42.075 – 00:33:46.045] And in approaching the Little Red Book and-

33:24

[00 33:46.220 – 00:33:52.580] Reading it in the way it's described, right, it's the working mechan- mechanics, it's the practical application.

33:30

[00 33:52.580 – 00:33:59.300] Um, the Little Red Book is really not that in the sense that I think of the working mechanics.

33:37

[00 33:59.300 – 00:34:05.800] Like, uh, working mechanics, I think of, um, you know, the fourth step in the big book that talks about, "Here are the three columns.

33:47

[00 34:05.800 – 00:34:08.010] This is what we, this is what we write," right?

33:51

[00 34:08.010 – 00:34:11.770] And we go back to the list, and we write some more stuff, and then we inventory our fears.

33:58

[00 34:11.770 – 00:34:14.240] That is practical application.

34:00

[00 34:14.240 – 00:34:15.760] Those are the working mechanics.

34:02

[00 34:15.760 – 00:34:21.060] What the Little Red Book does more is maybe, um...

34:06

[00 34:21.060 – 00:34:30.600] Well, it's an interpretation of the 12 steps, and that was essentially its original title before it, it got the appellation of, uh, the Little Red Book.

34:16

[00 34:30.600 – 00:34:33.640] And it was...

34:17

[00 34:33.640 – 00:34:41.440] They were more essays talking about the principles as Ed and Barry and the Nicolette group understood them.

34:24

[00 34:41.440 – 00:34:51.460] It was their interpretation of it, and that these essays were to be helpful in applying these principles, in going through this work, in taking an inventory, going out,

34:35

[00 34:51.460 – 00:34:54.620] making amends, cleaning house, the whole nine yards.

34:39

[00 34:54.620 – 00:34:59.920] Um, so some Nicolette group locations.

34:41

[00 34:59.920 – 00:35:03.360] I think this is still their current location.

34:44

[00 35:03.360 – 00:35:04.120] They're still around.

34:46

[00 35:04.120 – 00:35:08.020] A lot of groups, a lot of old, old groups are not still around.

34:51

[00 35:08.020 – 00:35:09.600] They are.

34:52

[00 35:09.600 – 00:35:16.000] So I mentioned the step classes briefly, and they...

34:56

[00 35:16.000 – 00:35:17.420] Uh, it wasn't one of...

34:58

[00 35:17.420 – 00:35:28.300] It didn't arise out of someone going, "Oh, wouldn't this be cool if we made some simplifly, uh, simplified classes

35:06

[00 35:28.300 – 00:35:38.510] to, like, teach people stuff?" It really arose out of a need to introduce the program quickly to a lot of people because

35:15

[00 35:38.510 – 00:35:48.580] of the rapid growth that occurred after the publication of this article by Jack Alexander, non-alcoholic, um, who was a journalist, uh,

35:23

[00 35:48.580 – 00:35:57.460] published March 1st, 1941 in the Saturday Evening Post, and it brought in many thousands of people, right?

35:29

[00 35:57.460 – 00:35:59.900] It just prompted a flood of people to come in.

35:33

[00 35:59.900 – 00:36:06.500] So it was really out of necessity, and this is how it relates to the Little Red Book.

35:40

[00 36:06.500 – 00:36:11.000] So this is from the author's note in the first printing of The Little Red Book.

35:47

[00 36:11.000 – 00:36:19.040] It reads, "This book was originally prepared as a series of notes for 12-step discussions for new AA members.

35:54

[00 36:19.040 – 00:36:21.710] It proved to be very effective and helpful.

35:57

[00 36:21.710 – 00:36:28.920] Many groups adopted it using mimeographed copies." So all these people flooding in, right?

36:03

[00 36:28.920 – 00:36:30.820] These classes seem like a good idea.

36:06

[00 36:30.820 – 00:36:38.040] I'm not gonna tell you that Minneapolis, you know, was the first place to have these beginners classes.

36:12

[00 36:38.040 – 00:36:48.050] It's somewhat likely, but regardless, they were very, very early because they needed to find a way to be effective in their 12-step work when

36:22

[00 36:48.050 – 00:36:52.500] there are only so many people who'd been through the process, who'd been through the work.

36:28

[00 36:52.500 – 00:37:00.960] And so this was, you know, the, uh, kind of origin story of The Little Red Book were these classes.

36:36

[00 37:00.960 – 00:37:07.020] So, and again, these classes, they occurred all over the place.

36:40

[00 37:07.020 – 00:37:09.600] Here is a list of some early examples.

36:43

[00 37:09.600 – 00:37:19.480] So I think Minneapolis was around 1941, 1942, though the four class format probably happened a little bit later.

36:50

[00 37:19.480 – 00:37:24.740] I don't think that happened in 1941 at all, but I am not an authority on this.

36:56

[00 37:24.740 – 00:37:29.420] Some Grapevine articles about it.

36:58

[00 37:29.420 – 00:37:29.790] Some St.

36:59

[00 37:29.790 – 00:37:30.340] Paul.

37:00

[00 37:30.340 – 00:37:31.170] St.

37:01

[00 37:31.170 – 00:37:33.940] Paul has a rich history as well.

37:04

[00 37:33.940 – 00:37:44.160] These beginners classes are also mentioned in the Handbook to the Secretary, and here are the pamphlets, which, you know, very much these, these classes were somewhat based on

37:15

[00 37:44.160 – 00:37:46.660] or given to participants.

37:17

[00 37:46.660 – 00:37:47.940] Here are some early examples.

37:19

[00 37:47.940 – 00:37:57.440] So we're talking about the mid-'40s here, and I could go down a severe rabbit hole with these, but we're not gonna do that tonight.

37:29

[00 37:57.440 – 00:37:59.820] But here are some examples.

37:31

[00 37:59.820 – 00:38:02.260] Okay.

37:31

[00 38:02.260 – 00:38:07.580] So there are probably some informal classes by Pat maybe in 1941, right?

37:36

[00 38:07.580 – 00:38:08.250] This is...

37:37

[00 38:08.250 – 00:38:18.320] And then after moving to the Alano Club in April of 1942, right, that beautiful house I showed some pictures of earlier, these classes maybe became more

37:47

[00 38:18.320 – 00:38:21.780] formalized, taking place one day a week for four weeks.

37:51

[00 38:21.780 – 00:38:32.200] Maybe around this time, these classes would lead to the development of what Minneapolis did have called the instructor's outline, which is similar to those pamphlets

38:01

[00 38:32.200 – 00:38:35.300] I just shared, but not the same at all.

38:05

[00 38:35.300 – 00:38:39.320] Um, so what kind of connection they have, I don't know.

38:09

[00 38:39.320 – 00:38:43.740] Some people believe that Minneapolis were the first ones to really have that pamphlet.

38:14

[00 38:43.740 – 00:38:54.380] You know, um, others will say, "No, that material came from Detroit, and Washington, DC were the first ones to print it." I don't have definitive

38:24

[00 38:54.380 – 00:39:01.980] answers for you, but everyone was looking to see how they could help the new people get introduced to this program.

38:32

[00 39:01.980 – 00:39:12.109] So Pat is one man, and he's been, you know, trying to get this thing going off the ground, and he needed to find someone with leadership skills, with speaking

38:44

[00 39:12.109 – 00:39:13.080] skills, like Ed.

38:45

[00 39:13.080 – 00:39:19.380] And so he asked Ed to assist in leading with classes, uh, probably in the early 1940s.

38:52

[00 39:19.380 – 00:39:29.440] So possibly the instructor's outline was maybe the first instruction manual for beginners classes and was probably put together by Pat.

39:00

[00 39:29.440 – 00:39:31.000] He was sober longer.

39:01

[00 39:31.000 – 00:39:35.060] This might have been one of his, uh, 12-step missions.

39:05

[00 39:35.060 – 00:39:40.920] So, but there are similarities between the instructor's outline and other early beginners pamphlets, so.

39:11

[00 39:40.920 – 00:39:45.040] And these are a few pages of the instructor's outline.

39:15

[00 39:45.040 – 00:39:55.540] If you'd like to hear, um, someone giving a talk on one of these, uh, sections,

39:21

[00 39:55.540 – 00:39:57.220] there is one on Recovery Speakers.

39:24

[00 39:57.220 – 00:39:57.430] It's...

39:25

[00 39:57.430 – 00:40:01.520] No, it's not from the '40s, but it is from 1952, so, uh, pretty early on.

39:31

[00 40:01.520 – 00:40:05.660] And you'll see it's really just someone sharing their experience, right?

39:35

[00 40:05.660 – 00:40:13.020] It's not so formalized, at least in this talk at the Alano Club in Minneapolis in the early 1950s.

39:42

[00 40:13.020 – 00:40:22.820] And this is a pamphlet from, um, the Alano Club actually that does look the same as the other pamphlets.

39:50

[00 40:22.820 – 00:40:26.920] So this is different from the instructor's outline.

39:53

[00 40:26.920 – 00:40:27.880] Similar, but...

39:55

[00 40:27.880 – 00:40:29.480] Okay.

39:55

[00 40:29.480 – 00:40:31.320] So the Nicolette group

39:57

[00 40:31.426 – 00:40:35.966] They had their own beginners meetings, like from what I read in that 1964 draft.

40:03

[00 40:35.966 – 00:40:41.866] So Ed definitely did some first step classes and some other ones potentially.

40:08

[00 40:41.866 – 00:40:51.666] There were the outline, the instructor manual, like we talked about, and this became required for new members at the Nicolette Group.

40:16

[00 40:51.666 – 00:40:55.466] This was your introduction, part of your indoctrination.

40:19

[00 40:55.466 – 00:40:57.966] And so this is Ed.

40:21

[00 40:57.966 – 00:41:06.626] The book Alcoholics Anonymous suggested the steps should be lived since one cannot impart to another something he does not understand himself.

40:30

[00 41:06.626 – 00:41:11.206] I compiled notes from which I gave lectures on all of the 12 steps.

40:35

[00 41:11.206 – 00:41:14.986] So Ed is looking to see how he can become more effective.

40:40

[00 41:14.986 – 00:41:21.466] He's putting together notes, and all of this is gonna become expanded into The Little Red Book.

40:46

[00 41:21.466 – 00:41:26.166] Um, I'm gonna skip that tonight.

40:49

[00 41:26.166 – 00:41:29.486] Uh, we're not gonna have a conversation about success rates.

40:53

[00 41:29.486 – 00:41:31.146] I can go down a rabbit hole on that.

40:56

[00 41:31.146 – 00:41:39.406] Okay, so these beginners classes and the notes that they use actually became kind of popular.

41:03

[00 41:39.406 – 00:41:49.446] I don't know what these notes look like at this time, um, but copies were shared, and, uh, as early as 1945, some of these notes were being used in

41:13

[00 41:49.446 – 00:41:50.006] Canada.

41:14

[00 41:50.006 – 00:41:57.066] They acquired a copy and were using it by January 1945, and I have some notes there.

41:20

[00 41:57.066 – 00:42:01.806] So these mimeographs of Ed's expanded class notes, right?

41:24

[00 42:01.806 – 00:42:09.706] And those probably look pretty similar to what The Little Red Book would read as when it's finally published.

41:31

[00 42:09.706 – 00:42:19.496] And here is a letter to the Nicolette Group from a group in Canada saying like, "Hey, can we get some kind of bound up copies of this?

41:42

[00 42:19.496 – 00:42:30.086] We find this effective." This was perhaps the most challenging part for me to put together as far as accuracy

41:50

[00 42:30.086 – 00:42:36.486] in this presentation, which is what was the evolution of The Little Red Book, right, until it was published.

41:57

[00 42:36.486 – 00:42:38.366] This is a guess.

41:59

[00 42:38.366 – 00:42:43.926] Really, really, it's a guess because there are so many holes and they're just...

42:04

[00 42:43.926 – 00:42:48.046] I don't have a mimeograph copy that I've looked through.

42:08

[00 42:48.046 – 00:42:50.826] I don't have a manuscript that I've looked through.

42:12

[00 42:50.826 – 00:42:57.546] There is an early 1945 version of the book, uh, that Hazelden has in their archives.

42:18

[00 42:57.546 – 00:43:01.046] I have a picture of the first page of it.

42:22

[00 43:01.046 – 00:43:06.746] So, um, there's probably a lot more to be revealed if someone gets access to that stuff.

42:28

[00 43:06.746 – 00:43:15.426] So here's my best guess that Ed recruit, uh, who was recruited by Pat C at 2218, started teaching classes.

42:35

[00 43:15.426 – 00:43:24.415] Um, and this was maybe, you know, sometime in 1942, um, possibly after April, and the Alano Club is formed.

42:43

[00 43:24.415 – 00:43:31.586] Begins to teach these four sessions, maybe using the instructor's outline, um, or perhaps his own version.

42:49

[00 43:31.586 – 00:43:36.446] You-- That gets expanded into kind of these class outlines, right.

42:54

[00 43:36.446 – 00:43:43.086] Nicolette Group, once they split in the early '40s, you know, they have maybe their own version.

43:01

[00 43:43.086 – 00:43:50.926] And Ed has these class notes, which he didn't think made sense in their current form to just share with other groups.

43:09

[00 43:50.926 – 00:44:00.946] So felt that they needed to be expanded and stand alone so that someone else who's sober six months or a year could read the notes and go, "Oh,

43:20

[00 44:00.946 – 00:44:04.326] this is a great, um, approach," right.

43:23

[00 44:04.326 – 00:44:14.346] "I can follow this outline and help introduce this program in a simple way, what these principles are, and how to apply them

43:31

[00 44:14.346 – 00:44:22.306] in a very practical way in your life and, and, uh, stay sober." So Ed writes what is essentially a manuscript of The Little Red Book at some point.

43:42

[00 44:22.306 – 00:44:29.466] This is more of a book form, and it's possible that this was sometime in 1944.

43:48

[00 44:29.466 – 00:44:36.186] So this is a full two years, um, possibly, or at least a year and a half before the book is published.

43:57

[00 44:36.186 – 00:44:39.106] We have mimeographed copies which are produced.

43:59

[00 44:39.106 – 00:44:41.426] Uh, they're shared, they're purchased, right.

44:02

[00 44:41.426 – 00:44:51.806] We talked about that 1945 example, and it was further edited and printed as title, An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous

44:11

[00 44:51.806 – 00:44:52.546] Program.

44:12

[00 44:52.546 – 00:45:00.826] And that would be August 1946, and that is the first official first printing of The Little Red Book.

44:18

[00 45:00.826 – 00:45:03.926] Before then, right, it's kind of informal.

44:21

[00 45:03.926 – 00:45:06.146] They're-- have these mimeograph copies.

44:24

[00 45:06.146 – 00:45:10.666] There may be sharing, selling them, putting them together in an informal way.

44:29

[00 45:10.666 – 00:45:16.726] The book would not adopt its official name, The Little Red Book, until 1949.

44:34

[00 45:16.726 – 00:45:22.706] And here's page one of one of the mimeograph typescript.

44:38

[00 45:22.706 – 00:45:24.006] Oh, no, it's not at Hazelden.

44:40

[00 45:24.006 – 00:45:24.746] I apologize.

44:41

[00 45:24.746 – 00:45:30.246] It's at Brown University, and it's J-- uh, dated June 5th, 1945.

44:46

[00 45:30.246 – 00:45:36.206] There were also founder retreats that Nicolette had.

44:49

[00 45:36.206 – 00:45:37.846] I have all that information here.

44:52

[00 45:37.846 – 00:45:39.636] I've covered it before.

44:53

[00 45:39.636 – 00:45:43.126] I'm gonna skip through this, but there's some wonderful pictures.

44:57

[00 45:43.126 – 00:45:46.726] Here's Bob, Earl T., Barry C.

45:00

[00 45:46.726 – 00:45:52.406] You have family members, you have early members.

45:03

[00 45:52.406 – 00:45:53.686] There's Anne Smith.

45:05

[00 45:53.686 – 00:45:58.686] It's just really nice to see.

45:07

[00 45:58.686 – 00:46:01.386] So Dr.

45:08

[00 46:01.386 – 00:46:05.526] Bob's in-influence, um, right.

45:10

[00 46:05.526 – 00:46:06.666] Ed and Barry knew Dr.

45:12

[00 46:06.666 – 00:46:06.966] Bob.

45:13

[00 46:06.966 – 00:46:09.346] They visited, they wrote to each other.

45:16

[00 46:09.346 – 00:46:09.556] Dr.

45:17

[00 46:09.556 – 00:46:15.786] Bob went to at least two of the four founders retreats that they had, where they invited.

45:23

[00 46:15.786 – 00:46:19.206] Again, it was a little bit more exclusive than inclusive.

45:27

[00 46:19.206 – 00:46:20.726] There was an invitation list.

45:29

[00 46:20.726 – 00:46:25.126] Did he have direct input into the manuscript?

45:33

[00 46:25.126 – 00:46:34.866] This is a little bit contested, but-- And this is not contemporary in the 1940s, but in 1970, Ed W.

45:40

[00 46:34.866 – 00:46:38.606] Setter wrote, "In 1946, my friend Barry C.

45:43

[00 46:38.606 – 00:46:43.036] drove to Akron, Ohio, leaving the manuscript of The Little Red Book with Dr.

45:48

[00 46:43.036 – 00:46:50.786] Bob, who wrote shortly afterward that he thought the book would be most helpful to our members." Maybe that was a manuscript, a mimeograph copy.

45:58

[00 46:50.786 – 00:46:53.286] Maybe it was actually the first printing, right.

46:01

[00 46:53.286 – 00:46:55.916] It is around that time in 1946.

46:04

[00 46:55.916 – 00:47:01.426] Um, I think it's unlikely that Dr.

46:07

[00 47:01.426 – 00:47:08.026] Bob wrote letters with like detailed input or underlined things, right.

46:11

[00 47:08.026 – 00:47:14.266] Some-someone made that claim that there were some underlines and, uh, a manuscript copy by Dr.

46:17

[00 47:14.266 – 00:47:14.746] Bob.

46:18

[00 47:14.746 – 00:47:15.806] I haven't seen it.

46:20

[00 47:15.806 – 00:47:16.536] I can't say

46:21

[00 47:16.671 – 00:47:25.991] Tell you, but for those of you who've read, um, Writing the Big Book, um, you'll notice that Dr.

46:28

[00 47:25.991 – 00:47:35.751] Bob doesn't give a lot of input into the Big Book, and his style of speaking and writing is, uh, a bit more concise.

46:37

[00 47:35.751 – 00:47:43.931] So I don't think it's likely that outside of conversations about spirituality in the program that Dr.

46:44

[00 47:43.931 – 00:47:47.811] Bob ha- you know, was sitting, sitting down talking about editing.

46:48

[00 47:47.811 – 00:47:51.311] But they kept in touch with Dr.

46:51

[00 47:51.311 – 00:47:52.931] Bob about the progress of it.

46:54

[00 47:52.931 – 00:47:56.311] Here is Ed W.

46:56

[00 47:56.311 – 00:47:57.231] and Barry C.

46:57

[00 47:57.231 – 00:48:07.391] And the publishing company Cole Web, um, abbreviated.

47:00

[00 48:07.391 – 00:48:11.061] It's not their full last names, but I will say, um, their last names.

47:06

[00 48:11.061 – 00:48:15.191] The Barry C, that's the Cole, and then Ed W., that's the Web part.

47:11

[00 48:15.191 – 00:48:22.811] So it was Cole Web, and they would go on to publish three of the four books that Ed wrote.

47:19

[00 48:22.811 – 00:48:26.591] Okay, well, I'm not going as fast as I wanted to.

47:23

[00 48:26.591 – 00:48:30.271] Um, here's the first printing of The Little Red Book.

47:27

[00 48:30.271 – 00:48:32.391] We'll go through these quickly.

47:30

[00 48:32.391 – 00:48:33.791] They made a mistake in the PO box.

47:33

[00 48:33.791 – 00:48:42.611] You can see that they crossed that out and wrote in the correct PO box, and it was published in Minneapolis in nineteen forty-six in August here.

47:43

[00 48:42.611 – 00:48:48.241] And you might see some versions that have two stamps, one that has one stamp, one that have no stamps.

47:51

[00 48:48.241 – 00:48:54.991] It does not indicate the, the, the order in which they were, were printed, but, um, I couldn't tell you why there were stamps.

48:00

[00 48:54.991 – 00:48:56.431] And here's Dr.

48:01

[00 48:56.431 – 00:48:59.630] Bob in his laconic style saying, "Thought it was quite all right.

48:06

[00 48:59.630 – 00:49:07.291] Enjoyed your little book very much and know that it will prove to be a lot of help to many." He did very much like the book, though, and Dr.

48:17

[00 49:07.291 – 00:49:15.511] Bob insisted that New York keep a supply at the New York office, and he also suggested it to other groups who would purchase it.

48:27

[00 49:15.511 – 00:49:20.511] And Ed and Barry would just send Little Red Books to Dr.

48:31

[00 49:20.511 – 00:49:27.511] Bob and say, you know, "Free of charge." Here is a copy, a first printing of The Little Red Book signed by Dr.

48:40

[00 49:27.511 – 00:49:28.011] Bob.

48:41

[00 49:28.011 – 00:49:30.231] So he was certainly a fan.

48:43

[00 49:30.231 – 00:49:33.371] There was wholesale endorsement by him.

48:46

[00 49:33.371 – 00:49:36.651] I'm gonna skip through some of this.

48:49

[00 49:36.651 – 00:49:46.311] Um, in nineteen forty-six, at the end of the year in December, Ed wrote to Bob, "The purpose was long-range sponsorship.

48:57

[00 49:46.311 – 00:49:56.151] It started in a small way with the boys in our group, but has extended beyond that as a few other clubs seem to be using the little book as an outline for the study of the AA book.

49:11

[00 49:56.151 – 00:50:06.231] The demand is not great, but the satisfaction is as I feel that others are getting a little help because of my cooperation with God, who saw fit to permit

49:23

[00 50:06.231 – 00:50:17.231] it." Initially, the Little Red Book, they operated at a loss, but they considered it a form of sponsorship or long-range sponsorship, right?

49:32

[00 50:17.231 – 00:50:17.411] Dr.

49:32

[00 50:17.411 – 00:50:18.791] Bob was a fan.

49:34

[00 50:18.791 – 00:50:21.871] It was likely a favorite in Ohio-based, um...

49:37

[00 50:21.871 – 00:50:25.431] I, I wish I knew more about, like, were they using it in Cleveland?

49:43

[00 50:25.431 – 00:50:28.151] I would very much guess yes.

49:45

[00 50:28.151 – 00:50:38.191] Uh, Glenn C, who made some really great contributions to AA history research, he said, "We could describe The Little Red Book

49:54

[00 50:38.191 – 00:50:40.311] as the best compendium around of what Dr.

49:57

[00 50:40.311 – 00:50:47.601] Bob and his circle in the upper Midwest regarded as the most important things to teach newcomers." And Dr.

50:04

[00 50:47.601 – 00:50:49.711] Bob's death would be a great loss.

50:07

[00 50:49.711 – 00:51:00.110] They can see Ed attended his funeral, and there was a special thanks to Bobby B with third book off the press

50:16

[00 51:00.111 – 00:51:02.151] that Ed and Barry sent to her.

50:18

[00 51:02.151 – 00:51:05.231] And I'm not gonna go through all the printings.

50:22

[00 51:05.231 – 00:51:06.351] There are some differences.

50:24

[00 51:06.351 – 00:51:07.991] There are some things that I found.

50:27

[00 51:07.991 – 00:51:18.211] I mean, it is the messiest, I would say even more messy in some ways than the twenty-four-hour-a-day book, figuring out printings.

50:35

[00 51:18.211 – 00:51:28.291] The book that you can purchase today from Hazelden, uh, resembles but is very much

50:41

[00 51:28.291 – 00:51:33.151] a different creature than what was first printed in nineteen forty-six.

50:45

[00 51:33.151 – 00:51:38.211] And if I had every copy, maybe we could get them scanned and look at the changes.

50:52

[00 51:38.211 – 00:51:48.131] I'm only gonna mention a few, and there are people who know The Little Red Book much better than I do and have, um, probably noticed lots of different changes.

51:03

[00 51:48.131 – 00:51:58.291] But the language begins to soften in forty-seven and forty-eight and very much aligns with the Big Book, um, where they talk about illness and sickness

51:13

[00 51:58.291 – 00:51:59.751] rather than saying disease.

51:15

[00 51:59.751 – 00:52:05.011] That was a word that I believe Bill intentionally avoided but, but had his own opinions on as well.

51:22

[00 52:05.011 – 00:52:10.750] Um, but if you read the first printing of the book, it's very directive.

51:28

[00 52:10.750 – 00:52:13.011] This is not a suggested program.

51:30

[00 52:13.011 – 00:52:17.691] It is a, it is a very much directive, like take direction.

51:35

[00 52:17.691 – 00:52:20.471] Um, you know, the- these are musts.

51:38

[00 52:20.471 – 00:52:30.371] These are, these are not voluntary, uh, which later Ed would talk about voluntary musts and, and have a, an appendix on that.

51:47

[00 52:30.371 – 00:52:32.911] So he's really trying to align with AA vernacular there.

51:51

[00 52:32.911 – 00:52:36.991] Nineteen forty-nine, as I mentioned, it's now called The Little Red Book.

51:55

[00 52:36.991 – 00:52:47.071] Here's, uh, one of Barry C's copies in the nine-- later nineteen-forties, where he's making suggestions to

52:02

[00 52:47.071 – 00:52:48.271] format editing.

52:03

[00 52:48.271 – 00:52:54.111] It went through many iterations, and some of which I'm very confused by.

52:08

[00 52:54.111 – 00:53:01.791] But the nineteen forty-nine printing is a benchmark because after that, right, and Dr.

52:13

[00 53:01.791 – 00:53:11.811] Bob passes away, uh, in nineteen fifty, but, but after that, like they start to, I, I think, more heavily edit and then also add material, and we're gonna

52:24

[00 53:11.811 – 00:53:14.471] talk about some of that tonight.

52:27

[00 53:14.471 – 00:53:18.391] And this was all over the place.

52:30

[00 53:18.391 – 00:53:20.151] I mean, Australia was using it.

52:32

[00 53:20.151 – 00:53:22.411] I mean, a hundred copies were sent to London.

52:36

[00 53:22.411 – 00:53:30.071] Let me skip through that 'cause I wanna get to what I wanna get to.

52:42

[00 53:30.071 – 00:53:35.071] And this split between the Ilano Club and Nicolette group.

52:46

[00 53:35.071 – 00:53:36.111] Pat C.

52:47

[00 53:36.111 – 00:53:39.031] continued to recommend this book and other books throughout.

52:51

[00 53:39.031 – 00:53:47.271] This is what I wanted to get to tonight, were the major additions, revisions that occurred in nineteen fifty.

52:58

[00 53:47.271 – 00:53:53.071] So there are a handful of printings, and when I say printings, they're making changes.

53:04

[00 53:53.071 – 00:53:54.891] They're, they're actually making changes.

53:06

[00 53:54.891 – 00:53:57.371] Like in some ways you can consider them additions.

53:10

[00 53:57.371 – 00:54:01.771] Um, but in nineteen fifty, here's a letter from Ed

53:14

[00 54:01.897 – 00:54:06.917] Ed, um, to different groups saying, like, "We made some changes.

53:18

[00 54:06.917 – 00:54:17.357] We really thought about this for four years before including this." And, and really the most controversial of which was,

53:26

[00 54:17.357 – 00:54:27.057] do we really want to address sponsorship in a way that is more, uh, that, that's expanded from what they already had in the three divisions of step 12?

53:36

[00 54:27.057 – 00:54:37.097] And eventually they arrived at, "Yes, we wanna do that." So here's Ed talking about where you can find those changes and kind of their thought process on changing them.

53:47

[00 54:37.097 – 00:54:41.637] So they had eight new pages, bunch of revisions.

53:51

[00 54:41.637 – 00:54:51.717] Each section, so this is where most of the new pages come from, are summarizations of the steps, trying to kind of distill down some of the principles

54:02

[00 54:51.717 – 00:54:55.477] and takeaway points from the essay that you just read.

54:06

[00 54:55.477 – 00:55:02.857] And then the two appendix, um, there were two, in the appendix there were two sections that they added.

54:13

[00 55:02.857 – 00:55:11.217] One was basically sponsorship, and the other was we don't have to but, and also refer to these as the voluntary must.

54:21

[00 55:11.217 – 00:55:20.537] All right, so this is what's new, and this is what I'm gonna read.

54:27

[00 55:20.537 – 00:55:21.157] It's long.

54:28

[00 55:21.157 – 00:55:30.217] The reason why I want to share this, the 1950 book, that specific printing, is tough to find.

54:34

[00 55:30.217 – 00:55:33.357] '51, '52, not so much a problem.

54:37

[00 55:33.357 – 00:55:41.357] It seems that in 1957 these appendixes were completely taken away.

54:41

[00 55:41.357 – 00:55:47.897] I don't know why, um, but I looked at my 1957 version.

54:46

[00 55:47.897 – 00:55:53.487] Um, they were later re-added, but this whole essay on working with others was taken away.

54:52

[00 55:53.487 – 00:56:03.577] Um, so even though they kept this appendix of working with others, the format of it was they just retained questions and

55:00

[00 56:03.577 – 00:56:06.237] where to refer to in the big book for the answer.

55:05

[00 56:06.237 – 00:56:13.957] So I really wanted to read this because this connects to traditions, it connects to 12-step work and sponsorship and all of that.

55:13

[00 56:13.957 – 00:56:18.537] So please bear with me, um, that it is about six slides of reading.

55:19

[00 56:18.537 – 00:56:28.487] So AA usage of the word sponsorship has evolved from the rehabilitative work recovered AA members have done with other alcoholics.

55:27

[00 56:28.487 – 00:56:36.217] The following quotation from the book Alcoholics Anonymous commends this service by a frank statement from our founders.

55:34

[00 56:36.217 – 00:56:43.866] "Practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics.

55:41

[00 56:43.866 – 00:56:46.517] It works when other activities fail.

55:43

[00 56:46.517 – 00:56:49.677] AA groups are in agreement with this advice.

55:46

[00 56:49.677 – 00:56:52.837] They have been quick to realize their need for 12-step work.

55:51

[00 56:52.837 – 00:56:59.157] It not only ensures immunity from drinking, it is the lifeblood of AA, the motivating factor of our growth.

55:58

[00 56:59.157 – 00:57:04.957] By zealous, humble effort, the members of our fellowship have established strong chapters throughout the world.

56:04

[00 57:04.957 – 00:57:10.037] Favorable publicity has helped new groups in the making and increased the larger ones.

56:10

[00 57:10.037 – 00:57:20.337] Sponsorship stands out as a most important integrating function to the welfare and stability of all AA members." Today's sponsorship

56:17

[00 57:20.337 – 00:57:24.717] problems, although easier in many respects, present complexity.

56:21

[00 57:24.717 – 00:57:27.957] Oh, I can't see it 'cause the window's in the way.

56:25

[00 57:27.957 – 00:57:31.277] Complexities that did not confront our founders.

56:28

[00 57:31.277 – 00:57:39.477] We are obligated to thousands of alcoholics who have entrusted their lives in our hands, asking for competent supervision of their recovery from alcoholism.

56:37

[00 57:39.477 – 00:57:49.537] Our response, although diversified in procedure, has met this demand with tangible evidence of success which can be measured in terms of reclaimed lives,

56:46

[00 57:49.537 – 00:57:52.947] health, sanity, and contented sobriety.

56:48

[00 57:52.947 – 00:58:00.377] Of necessity, there has been variance in group ideology and success in approach and indoctrination.

56:54

[00 58:00.377 – 00:58:07.297] However, the record of accomplishment by Alcoholics Anonymous is the only worldwide record of mass recovery from alcoholism.

57:01

[00 58:07.297 – 00:58:12.167] To consider our enviable accomplishment is to concede a job well done.

57:06

[00 58:12.167 – 00:58:17.417] To apply AA philosophy, however, is to ask God's help for improvement.

57:11

[00 58:17.417 – 00:58:20.757] Where have we been lax in those cases that failed?

57:15

[00 58:20.757 – 00:58:27.957] Have we fallen short of the sponsorship suggestions so providentially placed in our hands by our founders?

57:21

[00 58:27.957 – 00:58:38.097] Since the book Alcoholics Anonymous contains a successful proved method of, of both approaching and working with other alcoholics, we believe

57:29

[00 58:38.097 – 00:58:41.467] it should be adopted for more universal application.

57:32

[00 58:41.467 – 00:58:51.477] Does it seem unwise to contemplate the benefits of AA could gain by unified acceptance of an orthodox interpretation of the chapter,

57:41

[00 58:51.477 – 00:58:52.277] working with others?

57:42

[00 58:52.277 – 00:59:02.277] Would it not simplify sponsorship and aid the newcomer if the gin hound from Manhattan and the alkie from California met on the same

57:51

[00 59:02.277 – 00:59:04.557] general grounds of sponsorship procedure?

57:54

[00 59:04.557 – 00:59:08.497] We should place more emphasis on our need for such achievement.

57:58

[00 59:08.497 – 00:59:12.227] Many will honestly answer that they are already doing this.

58:02

[00 59:12.227 – 00:59:13.817] Some see no reason for it.

58:04

[00 59:13.817 – 00:59:15.257] Others are indifferent.

58:06

[00 59:15.257 – 00:59:21.757] Members who visit many AA groups in their travels report the need of a standard outline for sponsorship activities.

58:13

[00 59:21.757 – 00:59:28.976] Since we have the outline in the book Alcoholics Anonymous, perhaps we should meditate our great need for its general acceptance.

58:21

[00 59:28.976 – 00:59:39.477] It is easy to sit back and believe that there is nothing we can do about this, or to arrive at the conclusion that each group is too well-entrenched in its own ideologies to make changes.

58:35

[00 59:39.477 – 00:59:43.037] Is this rationalization, or is it the truth?

58:38

[00 59:43.037 – 00:59:50.837] Do we wish to improve our AA service to the prospective member, or will we settle for the job we are doing?

58:46

[00 59:50.837 – 00:59:54.857] Are we right or are we wrong?

58:49

[00 59:54.857 – 00:59:56.617] No one is to judge but ourselves.

58:52

[00 59:56.617 – 01:00:00.657] Step 10 suggests that if we are wrong, we admit it, and promptly.

58:57

[01 00:00.657 – 01:00:05.497] This brings up other questions pertaining to organized groups sponsoring younger groups.

59:02

[01 00:05.497 – 01:00:11.457] Are we obligated to pass on the knowhow of sponsorship to them, or should we let them learn the hard way?

59:10

[01 00:11.457 – 01:00:21.517] Should we offset frothy emotional appeal with example and sound AA instruction and advise them to surrender self-centeredness and start practicing step 12 as our founders

59:19

[01 00:21.517 – 01:00:22.137] recommended it?

59:20

[01 00:22.137 – 01:00:24.117] Many of us work with other groups.

59:23

[01 00:24.117 – 01:00:25.617] Have we questioned our motives?

59:25

[01 00:25.617 – 01:00:31.757] Do we seek personal recognition, or are we humbly trying to bring understanding and help to them?

59:32

[01 00:31.757 – 01:00:36.617] These and other questions form the basis upon which we judge our own AA progress.

59:38

[01 00:36.617 – 01:00:38.857] Again, we alone are the judges.

59:40

[01 00:38.857 – 01:00:42.597] Sponsorship stripped of all controversial issues has two purposes.

59:44

[01 00:42.597 – 01:00:45.257] One, it helps us to keep sober.

59:47

[01 00:45.257 – 01:00:46.927] Two, it brings the example of

59:49

[01 00:47.103 – 01:00:53.243] Our contented sobriety to alcoholics who seek it and ask us for help to recover from alcoholism.

59:56

[01 00:53.243 – 01:00:56.922] How we sponsor is a personal matter.

59:59

[01 00:56.922 – 01:00:59.063] AA does not dictate, we alone decide.

60:02

[01 00:59.063 – 01:01:03.143] The fact that we make a call merely to keep ourselves sober has its rewards.

60:07

[01 01:03.143 – 01:01:08.303] Our chances for sobriety might be greater, however, if we followed through with complete sponsorship.

60:13

[01 01:08.303 – 01:01:14.623] Those of us who engage in sponsorship change our pattern or procedure with experience, which we enlarge upon from day to day.

60:22

[01 01:14.623 – 01:01:20.603] The sage wisdom that was ours at three months is hardly adequate a few months or years later.

60:29

[01 01:20.603 – 01:01:30.793] Many of us are soon willing to agree that sponsorship under the terms other than those described in the chapters, Working with Others, The Doctor's Opinion, There Is a Solution, We Agnostics,

60:41

[01 01:30.793 – 01:01:34.223] and More About Alcoholism, falls short of success.

60:44

[01 01:34.223 – 01:01:37.743] When we follow these chapters, we have success with our prospects.

60:48

[01 01:37.743 – 01:01:40.843] When we de- deviate, we invite AA headaches.

60:52

[01 01:40.843 – 01:01:44.743] If this is true, we find a simple answer in the study of these chapters.

60:57

[01 01:44.743 – 01:01:49.132] Failure to help those to whom we carry the message makes us two-time losers.

61:03

[01 01:49.132 – 01:01:54.503] We lessen the prospect's immediate chance for recovery and lose the benefits of working with them.

61:09

[01 01:54.503 – 01:02:03.623] Checking ourselves, we often wonder why we failed, did our emotions over the family plight obscure our knowledge of the fatal, incurable malady of our alcoholic prospect?

61:19

[01 02:03.623 – 01:02:06.463] Did we try to rush him in for the family's sake?

61:24

[01 02:06.463 – 01:02:09.763] Did we fail through lack of information about our prospect?

61:28

[01 02:09.763 – 01:02:16.803] Were we trying to administer AA therapy to a person whose basic illness was other than alcoholism?

61:34

[01 02:16.803 – 01:02:19.083] Do we believe that all alcoholics can recover?

61:37

[01 02:19.083 – 01:02:23.563] Our answers to these and other questions are to be found in the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

61:44

[01 02:23.563 – 01:02:31.223] For members who are interested in further consideration of the matter, the following list of thought-provoking questions," which I'm not gonna read, "may prove helpful.

61:53

[01 02:31.223 – 01:02:39.403] No attempt to answer them has been made except by reference to pages, paragraphs, and lines in the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

62:01

[01 02:39.403 – 01:02:45.783] We realize the list does not comprise complete sponsorship data, but believe that it touches on many fundamentals.

62:08

[01 02:45.783 – 01:02:56.263] We hope it may prompt you to enlarge upon your fund of AA knowledge by reviewing the advice that our founders have given us for working with others." That's

62:19

[01 02:56.263 – 01:02:57.443] the end of what I'm gonna read.

62:22

[01 02:57.443 – 01:03:05.903] The rest of this appendix one are questions, as you can see on the bottom, with page number references to the big book.

62:31

[01 03:05.903 – 01:03:16.043] He-- This would really be the time where if this were, like, a class, I would say, "All right, what did people

62:39

[01 03:16.043 – 01:03:16.583] notice?

62:40

[01 03:16.583 – 01:03:18.943] Um, what questions do you have?

62:42

[01 03:18.943 – 01:03:29.023] Like, what's going on here?" And there's not enough time to talk about all of them, but part of what I read here is this, um,

62:52

[01 03:29.023 – 01:03:39.043] that this is really sort of a, a, a self-confession of this dissonance of, you know, I, I've noticed that

63:00

[01 03:39.043 – 01:03:43.183] other groups and other individuals have not been as effective in sponsorship.

63:04

[01 03:43.183 – 01:03:53.103] And yeah, this is a personal individual matter, and groups are gonna have their ideologies around it, but might we benefit from a unif- unified approach?

63:14

[01 03:53.103 – 01:03:58.723] And, and so there's kind of this dialogue arguing both sides of, of this.

63:20

[01 03:58.723 – 01:04:04.023] And I would imagine that this essay was removed.

63:23

[01 04:04.023 – 01:04:11.063] You can't read it unless you get a nineteen fifty, fifty-one, fifty-two, fifty-three, kinda in that range, which is why I wanted to share it tonight.

63:33

[01 04:11.063 – 01:04:21.223] But very much speaks to, like, the purpose of why this book was even written, as well as what were some of the problems that individuals

63:43

[01 04:21.223 – 01:04:25.743] and groups encountered as far as how to be effective.

63:47

[01 04:25.743 – 01:04:28.783] Again, like kinda weak T, strong T AA.

63:50

[01 04:28.783 – 01:04:33.723] I'll also note that Ed W.

63:53

[01 04:33.723 – 01:04:41.683] doesn't just reference the basic text, which would have been the first hundred and seventy-nine pages in the first edition, but also some of the stories.

64:03

[01 04:41.683 – 01:04:45.083] This man knew the book very, very well.

64:06

[01 04:45.083 – 01:04:55.123] Very, very, very well, and he talked about daily study of it, that the little red book and the big book that, you know, group discussions should

64:16

[01 04:55.123 – 01:04:56.803] really revolve around these.

64:18

[01 04:56.803 – 01:05:02.883] Again, emphasizing the idea of, um, book-centric was effective.

64:22

[01 05:02.883 – 01:05:06.713] And of course, that lives today and, and, and serves good purpose.

64:26

[01 05:06.713 – 01:05:16.723] So I really wanted to share this because, you know, unless you have one of these sort of middle era books, you, you won't, um, you will not have

64:37

[01 05:16.723 – 01:05:17.103] read it.

64:38

[01 05:17.103 – 01:05:24.263] And also, you won't even notice it's missing because these two appendixes exist, but they don't have this essay anymore.

64:46

[01 05:24.263 – 01:05:34.463] And the second appendix is, um, uh, kind of more like where the voluntary must in the big book, and it

64:54

[01 05:34.463 – 01:05:35.843] just has page numbers.

64:56

[01 05:35.843 – 01:05:38.243] It's interesting, but I'm not gonna go through it.

64:59

[01 05:38.243 – 01:05:42.963] Um, gonna skip the bulletin stuff.

65:02

[01 05:42.963 – 01:05:53.363] But another part of Cole Webb and the Nicolette group was they had their own mailing list, and they sent out bulletins, and they would have updates

65:12

[01 05:53.363 – 01:05:57.253] and talk about the new upcoming book, Stools and Bottles, right?

65:17

[01 05:57.253 – 01:06:04.663] There'd be communication, order forms, um, right, usefulness in that way.

65:21

[01 06:04.663 – 01:06:10.943] Um, I will play this talk 'cause I have spoken enough.

65:25

[01 06:10.943 – 01:06:12.223] So this is Ed W.

65:27

[01 06:12.223 – 01:06:22.243] at the Ilana Club at twenty two eighteen speaking in nineteen sixty-two, giving a talk on Stools and Bottles, which was originally a talk he gave

65:37

[01 06:22.243 – 01:06:30.123] and then put into book form because, again, I can't be in all places, um, uh, at, you know, at once.

65:45

[01 06:30.123 – 01:06:40.063] And, um, same reason that some of Bill's talks were started to become recorded on vinyl, actually, because Bill just simply couldn't be all places.

65:55

[01 06:40.063 – 01:06:43.123] Now, I'm not an authority on AA.

65:58

[01 06:43.123 – 01:06:53.703] I sure I, I put down some things on paper in a book, not because I thought I was, uh, so great, but because I had collected a lot of fine opinions

66:10

[01 06:53.703 – 01:06:54.703] from other people.

66:11

[01 06:54.703 – 01:06:56.823] I'd read the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

66:14

[01 06:56.823 – 01:07:06.883] I'd studied it, and I tried to get the working mechanics of each step down so that the new man or the new woman coming in wouldn't

66:24

[01 07:06.883 – 01:07:10.843] be at a loss to know what to do and do it right.

66:29

[01 07:10.843 – 01:07:15.883] Because, not because I put it down, I took my notes from Bill Wilson, from Dr.

66:35

[01 07:15.883 – 01:07:25.663] Bob Smith, from Pat Krolan, from many fine AAs nationally and internationally, how they did these steps, how they benefited.

66:43

[01 07:25.663 – 01:07:32.193] And studying the book, the big book, those were the things that I summed up finally and which-

66:50

[01 07:32.348 – 01:07:36.948] We'll find in the Little Red Book as a guide to the working mechanics.

66:55

[01 07:36.948 – 01:07:40.328] Oh Okay.

66:56

[01 07:40.328 – 01:07:44.738] I'm not gonna go through Ed and Bill and all that.

67:01

[01 07:44.738 – 01:07:47.248] I've covered that previously.

67:02

[01 07:47.248 – 01:07:54.108] You know, Bill was very grateful to anybody who was making a contribution, of course, to AA, its success.

67:10

[01 07:54.108 – 01:08:00.668] And, you know, Bill loved the drunk probably more than he loved AA, and anything that would help people.

67:17

[01 08:00.668 – 01:08:10.688] Of course, his sentiment kind of changed on, um, what approach AA as a whole should have when it came to literature and becoming

67:26

[01 08:10.688 – 01:08:11.658] more uniform there.

67:28

[01 08:11.658 – 01:08:16.717] So I've, I've spoken at that, about that at length in the past, but...

67:33

[01 08:16.717 – 01:08:21.328] So we're gonna skip this.

67:35

[01 08:21.328 – 01:08:23.648] Oh, I know what that is.

67:38

[01 08:23.648 – 01:08:24.148] That's cool.

67:39

[01 08:24.148 – 01:08:25.068] Okay.

67:40

[01 08:25.068 – 01:08:26.828] And the 12 and 12.

67:41

[01 08:26.828 – 01:08:35.008] And the 12 and 12 was not, you know, written for financial reasons, and it was not written to, you know, counteract the Little Red Book.

67:50

[01 08:35.008 – 01:08:39.678] There were multiple reasons for it, and it wasn't just the traditions either.

67:55

[01 08:39.678 – 01:08:49.798] There were a lot of good reasons why, um, Bill, Bill wrote it, and I re- for me personally, I believe it filled an identified need

68:05

[01 08:49.798 – 01:09:00.138] in a similar way that the Little Red Book did too, where more accessible, easier language, trying to boil down these concepts and principles,

68:14

[01 09:00.138 – 01:09:10.148] which may be not so easy for the drunk who's still a bit befog walking in the door to get from the Big Book, could get that in sitting down, you know, at a Little Red

68:28

[01 09:10.148 – 01:09:16.388] Book study or hearing someone, you know, um, share their experience in these beginners classes.

68:33

[01 09:16.388 – 01:09:20.488] We'll skip that.

68:35

[01 09:20.488 – 01:09:22.288] We'll skip that.

68:36

[01 09:22.288 – 01:09:25.828] Uh, we'll skip that.

68:38

[01 09:25.828 – 01:09:34.088] But he had a lot of reverence for Bill and Bob, and I would say especially Bob.

68:45

[01 09:34.088 – 01:09:36.588] Um, maybe as an individual.

68:47

[01 09:36.588 – 01:09:46.888] He didn't know Bill in the, in the same way that he knew Bob, but, um, but even above that, just so

68:55

[01 09:46.888 – 01:09:50.008] much reverence for the Big Book.

68:58

[01 09:50.008 – 01:09:55.408] Um, subsequent printings, you can see there were the dust jackets, all of that.

69:03

[01 09:55.408 – 01:10:05.708] I mean, by the 19, by 1964, it had been translated into eight languages and, um, I talked about the whole Hazelden thing and the,

69:12

[01 10:05.708 – 01:10:09.268] you know, they were gonna stop publishing, all in the royalties kerfuffle.

69:17

[01 10:09.268 – 01:10:11.108] So not gonna go through that.

69:19

[01 10:11.108 – 01:10:13.008] You can listen to one of the earlier talks.

69:23

[01 10:13.008 – 01:10:18.628] Here's a joke book called Barroom Reveries that he wrote in 1958.

69:27

[01 10:18.628 – 01:10:21.188] Only 1,000 copies were published.

69:29

[01 10:21.188 – 01:10:22.128] It was not popular.

69:31

[01 10:22.128 – 01:10:28.248] Maybe Ed wasn't as funny as he thought he was, but, um, very nice to, uh, to have a, have a copy.

69:39

[01 10:28.248 – 01:10:31.338] And it's kind of like a, not, not like a grapevine.

69:44

[01 10:31.338 – 01:10:34.728] Um, they're more kind of like one and two-liner things, I, I believe.

69:49

[01 10:34.728 – 01:10:44.108] And if you'd like to read Ed W's story, toward the end of his life, he would pass away and, uh, I, it's, oh God, I don't remember.

69:59

[01 10:44.108 – 01:10:45.728] I wanna say it's 70 or 71.

70:02

[01 10:45.728 – 01:10:47.608] I might be confusing with Bill.

70:04

[01 10:47.608 – 01:10:54.008] Um, but he did write his story in Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities, as well as some other content.

70:11

[01 10:54.008 – 01:10:58.958] That was the last contribution he would make among the, uh, four books.

70:16

[01 10:58.958 – 01:11:04.368] Don't have time to go through Stools and Bottles, but here it is.

70:21

[01 11:04.368 – 01:11:09.308] Oh, there's actually a smooth first printing version as well that has, that have smooth boards.

70:27

[01 11:09.308 – 01:11:12.128] It's more rare than the one you see on the far left.

70:32

[01 11:12.128 – 01:11:19.668] And that's a great picture of him giving his Stools and Bottles talk, and that's in Canada in 1966.

70:39

[01 11:19.668 – 01:11:29.988] That's Ed W, and you can see he'd literally bring these, these bottles that represented the character defects or the shortcomings or the, the, the devilish

70:49

[01 11:29.988 – 01:11:32.048] alcoholic personality traits.

70:50

[01 11:32.048 – 01:11:42.228] And very much, you know, I, in listening to him, I, I was surprised at hearing a lot of humility and like, yes,

70:59

[01 11:42.228 – 01:11:52.648] he had his beliefs and like this is the way that, you know, uh, our group did it and the way that I carry out my 12-step work, but it was carried out with a, a lot more humility

71:14

[01 11:52.648 – 01:11:58.568] than I anticipated after reading the, the Little Red Book in the beginning, 'cause it's very, very directive.

71:21

[01 11:58.568 – 01:12:03.648] But he was not a hit you over the head, um, kind of guy.

71:26

[01 12:03.648 – 01:12:05.628] Um, it was wrapped in a lot of love.

71:30

[01 12:05.628 – 01:12:12.608] So we're gonna close with him talking in 1965 and be done for the evening.

71:35

[01 12:12.608 – 01:12:23.068] And now it has been very pleasant, very inspirational for me to again review some of these early experiences before AA and also

71:44

[01 12:23.068 – 01:12:25.028] experiences after coming in AA.

71:46

[01 12:25.028 – 01:12:28.368] It keeps me from becoming complacent.

71:49

[01 12:28.368 – 01:12:38.328] See, I think such reflection also brings to mind many fine AAs who once sat in the chairs that we now, now occupy.

71:57

[01 12:38.328 – 01:12:48.708] As I reflect and think back to those days, there was Bill Summers, there was any number of, of fine Don Davidson, all those fine fellows who used to be in this room,

72:10

[01 12:48.708 – 01:12:51.728] who occupied the same space as we.

72:13

[01 12:51.728 – 01:12:59.928] And I wonder how they would live the AA program for another day if they could be brought back and given the chance to live it.

72:22

[01 12:59.928 – 01:13:07.178] I can't answer that, but you and I are here, and, uh, we can live it.

72:29

[01 13:07.178 – 01:13:17.388] And to each of us, God has given a little wisdom, and He has given us a little strength, and surely He has left the door to our recovery ajar,

72:40

[01 13:17.388 – 01:13:27.388] so that by the practice of our 12-step principles, we may keep opening in ever-widening circles this door

72:47

[01 13:27.388 – 01:13:33.308] until that last day when we will stop, when we can live our program no more.

72:53

[01 13:33.308 – 01:13:37.048] That last day, what will it be like then?

72:57

[01 13:37.048 – 01:13:47.168] Will we be able to thank God for the AA way of life, like many departed members of this group have done before us, and ask Him to judge us

73:08

[01 13:47.168 – 01:13:48.698] perhaps as He judged them?

73:10

[01 13:48.698 – 01:13:56.588] Not by the perfection they have attained or that we have attained, but by our honest efforts to succeed.

73:17

[01 13:56.588 – 01:13:58.508] And I wonder.

73:19

[01 13:58.508 – 01:14:01.688] Thank you very kindly.

73:21

[01 14:01.688 – 01:14:02.648] God bless you all.

73:23

[01 14:02.648 – 01:14:05.908] All right.

73:24

[01 14:05.908 – 01:14:13.668] It's very hard for me to not be able to see myself for an hour and 15 minutes, or see you all for an hour and 15 minutes, and I wonder if my internet has gone down.

73:37

[01 14:13.668 – 01:14:17.368] So it's not my wheelhouse doing presentations-

73:40

[01 14:17.664 – 01:14:19.814] on Zoom or talking on Zoom, but I did my best.

73:44

[01 14:19.814 – 01:14:24.933] And I will defer to Tim if we have time for a few questions.

73:49

[01 14:24.933 – 01:14:25.494] Thanks.

73:50

[01 14:25.494 – 01:14:29.074] Thank you so much, Custin.

73:52

[01 14:29.074 – 01:14:29.954] Great job.

73:53

[01 14:29.954 – 01:14:39.954] And we do have a few minutes here, so if anyone does have a question, please, uh, use the raise hand function and I will call on you to ask your

74:05

[01 14:39.954 – 01:14:40.474] question.

74:06

[01 14:40.474 – 01:14:50.914] And a reminder, uh, Gary, who is going to be our first question, is presenting next Tuesday on Bobbie Be and the traditions.

74:15

[01 14:50.914 – 01:14:53.034] So join us again next week.

74:17

[01 14:53.034 – 01:14:56.514] And Gary, you can go ahead and unmute and ask your question.

74:22

[01 14:56.514 – 01:15:06.514] Custin, uh, I just absolutely love how you, uh, e- end up including Bobbie early on in your, uh, in

74:30

[01 15:06.514 – 01:15:07.154] your talk.

74:31

[01 15:07.154 – 01:15:08.194] It's, it's, uh...

74:32

[01 15:08.194 – 01:15:09.854] I appreciate that.

74:34

[01 15:09.854 – 01:15:19.894] I am h- holding a, a, a book up in my hand, which is a 1947 version, and I think it's the

74:42

[01 15:19.894 – 01:15:24.054] second of the third of the three 1947.

74:44

[01 15:24.054 – 01:15:25.174] It's got the right cover.

74:47

[01 15:25.174 – 01:15:29.094] But on the front of it, can you see Bobbie?

74:51

[01 15:29.094 – 01:15:30.154] Yeah.

74:51

[01 15:30.154 – 01:15:31.274] All right.

74:52

[01 15:31.274 – 01:15:32.594] You know, it has been a...

74:55

[01 15:32.594 – 01:15:36.934] I, I actually bought this from the grandchildren o- of Bobbie.

74:59

[01 15:36.934 – 01:15:46.994] But, uh, have you ever heard of a, a, uh, uh, 1947 being stenciled with anybody's name like that?

75:06

[01 15:46.994 – 01:15:53.794] Or I, I just, I've never known how in the world this, uh, c- copy ever got a name on it.

75:14

[01 15:53.794 – 01:15:56.454] Yeah.

75:15

[01 15:56.454 – 01:15:56.464] I...

75:16

[01 15:56.464 – 01:15:57.634] Really good question.

75:17

[01 15:57.634 – 01:16:00.524] I mean, I don't think that was commonplace in the 1940s.

75:22

[01 16:00.524 – 01:16:07.173] I would be surprised if it happened then, and it looks really beautiful and really professionally done and has not had wear for many, many, many decades.

75:32

[01 16:07.173 – 01:16:17.214] But what I know some people have done is if they use a book, love a book, or just, you know, have it in a place where it gets damaged, is that at some point they

75:45

[01 16:17.214 – 01:16:21.874] may go, uh, you know, they'll get it rebound and they might have it customized.

75:51

[01 16:21.874 – 01:16:31.874] So I don't know when that happened, but, but I know Bobbie had a, had a really positive relationship and affection for, for Barry and Ed, and that comes through in the correspondence that they had

76:05

[01 16:31.874 – 01:16:32.274] together.

76:05

[01 16:32.274 – 01:16:35.754] And thank you for your contribution with your book on Bobbie.

76:10

[01 16:35.754 – 01:16:36.594] It was great.

76:11

[01 16:36.594 – 01:16:39.594] I'm sorry I can't answer your question better than that.

76:15

[01 16:39.594 – 01:16:44.154] But I'm in New York, so if you found her grave, I'd be more than happy to go with you in Brooklyn.

76:23

[01 16:44.154 – 01:16:51.114] Well, i- but incidentally, this is s- s- some thunder.

76:27

[01 16:51.114 – 01:16:59.454] We just found out Bobbie's grave site at Chris- at, uh, it's at Cypress Hills Cemetery in Brooklyn.

76:34

[01 16:59.454 – 01:17:02.614] We've never known that until the, the, the last week.

76:38

[01 17:02.614 – 01:17:07.414] Happy to go with you.

76:41

[01 17:07.414 – 01:17:08.754] Let me know if you're coming to New York.

76:44

[01 17:08.754 – 01:17:09.793] All right.

76:45

[01 17:09.793 – 01:17:12.594] All right.

76:46

[01 17:12.594 – 01:17:13.774] Thank you, Gary.

76:48

[01 17:13.774 – 01:17:18.794] And any other questions tonight?

76:50

[01 17:18.794 – 01:17:24.014] All right.

76:51

[01 17:24.014 – 01:17:25.674] Victor, you can unmute.

76:53

[01 17:25.674 – 01:17:28.974] Hi, folks.

76:54

[01 17:28.974 – 01:17:30.694] What a great night.

76:56

[01 17:30.694 – 01:17:32.114] Yeah.

76:57

[01 17:32.114 – 01:17:33.894] Uh, this, this is a lot of fun.

77:00

[01 17:33.894 – 01:17:35.514] You know, you know what really strikes me?

77:03

[01 17:35.514 – 01:17:38.323] Like, you're absolutely correct about the gentleman's humility, eh?

77:07

[01 17:38.323 – 01:17:40.374] Like, that, that was very endearing.

77:09

[01 17:40.374 – 01:17:42.114] But, um, I don't know.

77:12

[01 17:42.114 – 01:17:43.074] Like, I thought I was...

77:14

[01 17:43.074 – 01:17:43.314] I...

77:14

[01 17:43.314 – 01:17:48.074] At the beginning, I was talking about, uh, Carl Jung's book, but I am an idiot, eh, so it's okay.

77:22

[01 17:48.074 – 01:17:49.334] I catch up eventually.

77:24

[01 17:49.334 – 01:17:56.014] But, um, yeah, I was just wondering, like, why is AA all about control, right?

77:30

[01 17:56.014 – 01:17:56.694] It's kind of...

77:31

[01 17:56.694 – 01:18:00.094] Like, to me, that's what strikes me, is about control, eh?

77:36

[01 18:00.094 – 01:18:04.654] Like, "Do it this way or else." Like, uh, you know, coffee pot and a resentment.

77:42

[01 18:04.654 – 01:18:06.594] Yeah.

77:42

[01 18:06.594 – 01:18:13.554] So that, and groups spring out of other groups, and I wanna thank very, very much this, uh, platform for AA.

77:50

[01 18:13.554 – 01:18:15.374] And, uh, thank you.

77:52

[01 18:15.374 – 01:18:19.674] Uh, again, no question, just wanna look at myself yap and love it.

77:57

[01 18:19.674 – 01:18:20.654] Love it very much.

77:59

[01 18:20.654 – 01:18:21.134] Thank you.

78:00

[01 18:21.134 – 01:18:22.094] Keep up the great work.

78:02

[01 18:22.094 – 01:18:23.934] Thank you.

78:04

[01 18:23.934 – 01:18:24.224] Thank you.

78:05

[01 18:24.224 – 01:18:24.534] Yeah.

78:05

[01 18:24.534 – 01:18:29.264] I will typically defer to Bill when it comes to disarming rigidity.

78:10

[01 18:29.264 – 01:18:33.654] But what I do know is that lots of different groups, lots of different styles.

78:16

[01 18:33.654 – 01:18:39.374] Um, 12 step work and my 12 step work does not look the same now as it did, you know, a bunch of years ago, too.

78:25

[01 18:39.374 – 01:18:41.854] Uh, I defer to Bill.

78:27

[01 18:41.854 – 01:18:49.594] He seemed to be the most open-minded AA, if you read a lot of, uh, his letters and the literature he wrote.

78:36

[01 18:49.594 – 01:18:53.854] So that helps disarm my rigidity with what I think is the right way, so...

78:41

[01 18:53.854 – 01:19:02.764] And I try to remember that those who maybe I don't agree with wholeheartedly, um, are helping the people that they're meant to help that maybe I can't help.

78:52

[01 19:02.764 – 01:19:06.174] Thank you.

78:53

[01 19:06.174 – 01:19:07.494] And next is Lynn.

78:55

[01 19:07.494 – 01:19:08.414] You can unmute.

78:57

[01 19:08.414 – 01:19:09.414] Oh.

78:57

[01 19:09.414 – 01:19:10.714] Thank you.

78:59

[01 19:10.714 – 01:19:12.034] Custin, beautiful.

79:00

[01 19:12.034 – 01:19:19.274] Was there a coincidence that Bill wrote the 12 and 12 in 1946, is that correct?

79:05

[01 19:19.274 – 01:19:20.314] And then- '53.

79:06

[01 19:20.314 – 01:19:22.694] Uh, fifty- what?

79:08

[01 19:22.694 – 01:19:23.794] Sorry, what?

79:09

[01 19:23.794 – 01:19:25.334] 12 and 12 was published in '53.

79:11

[01 19:25.334 – 01:19:28.514] Oh, okay.

79:12

[01 19:28.514 – 01:19:31.254] So he was- The Little Red Book was published in 1946.

79:16

[01 19:31.254 – 01:19:32.514] Yeah, so you're right on that year.

79:19

[01 19:32.514 – 01:19:33.634] That was The Little Red Book.

79:21

[01 19:33.634 – 01:19:35.214] 12 and 12 was '53.

79:23

[01 19:35.214 – 01:19:37.634] Okay.

79:24

[01 19:37.634 – 01:19:38.234] All right.

79:25

[01 19:38.234 – 01:19:39.234] Thank you.

79:26

[01 19:39.234 – 01:19:41.254] No, no, but you're, but you're okay.

79:29

[01 19:41.254 – 01:19:44.114] Like, uh, some people have, like, theories around it.

79:32

[01 19:44.114 – 01:19:53.874] Uh, Bill did say in one of the letters that I skipped that he, uh, I don't know if he actually read The Little Red Book, but he definitely thumbed his, his nose into it at one point.

79:47

[01 19:53.874 – 01:20:01.874] And he said, "I hope to..." Like, "It fills a need, and I hope to write something that makes a similar contribution." 'Cause they're both similar in that way.

79:58

[01 20:01.874 – 01:20:03.554] They're really kind of interpretations.

80:00

[01 20:03.554 – 01:20:12.654] They're really just essays expanding on what these steps are and what they could mean, and trying to, um, have them become more accessible.

80:09

[01 20:12.654 – 01:20:15.654] So, so there's similarities, yes.

80:11

[01 20:15.654 – 01:20:18.254] Were they a direct call and response where Bill wrote?

80:15

[01 20:18.254 – 01:20:18.594] No.

80:16

[01 20:18.594 – 01:20:19.854] Not in my view.

80:18

[01 20:19.854 – 01:20:22.714] Thank you, Lynn.

80:19

[01 20:22.714 – 01:20:24.654] And next is Andrew.

80:21

[01 20:24.654 – 01:20:25.653] You can unmute.

80:22

[01 20:25.653 – 01:20:33.114] Hello, my name is Andrew, and I'm an alcoholic.

80:26

[01 20:33.114 – 01:20:33.954] Can you guys hear me?

80:28

[01 20:33.954 – 01:20:34.854] Yes.

80:29

[01 20:34.854 – 01:20:36.074] Yes.

80:30

[01 20:36.074 – 01:20:38.154] First of all, I wanna thank you for your presentation.

80:34

[01 20:38.154 – 01:20:40.114] It was very informative.

80:35

[01 20:40.114 – 01:20:44.974] I had no idea there was a connection with Nicolette and Minneapolis.

80:40

[01 20:44.974 – 01:20:55.334] I actually lived in Minneapolis, and the AA is really good there, and I had no idea that this presentation was about that area, and I appreciate

80:50

[01 20:55.334 – 01:20:56.694] your deliverance.

80:51

[01 20:56.694 – 01:21:00.884] I'm also real interested that, uh, Dr.

80:54

[01 21:00.884 – 01:21:02.654] Bob, he endorsed The Little-

80:56

[01 21:02.779 – 01:21:11.399] Red Book, um, to the degree where he would, he would suggest that New York would have copies of it.

81:04

[01 21:11.399 – 01:21:15.099] And what happened?

81:06

[01 21:15.099 – 01:21:25.159] Uh, how come AA never sanctioned it or approved it, um, especially after, after the endorsement by AA's co-founder,

81:13

[01 21:25.159 – 01:21:25.319] Dr.

81:14

[01 21:25.319 – 01:21:33.219] Bob, which I very much lean more towards because of, uh, the quality of sobriety that came from the Midwest.

81:21

[01 21:33.219 – 01:21:36.059] Uh, what, what, what happened in that regard?

81:25

[01 21:36.059 – 01:21:38.319] Great question.

81:26

[01 21:38.319 – 01:21:45.439] I attempted to answer that in previous times I did this presentation.

81:30

[01 21:45.439 – 01:21:54.199] The problem with not using a slide deck is it's very easy to make mistakes, even with information I know, 'cause I can just very simply misspeak, say something backwards.

81:42

[01 21:54.199 – 01:22:01.769] Um, Bill had a concern about precedent that he wrote about where ...

81:46

[01 22:01.769 – 01:22:12.059] 'Cause anybody could publish a book, create a pamphlet, and early on Bobby B referred to them as can openers, were really helpful to groups,

81:56

[01 22:12.059 – 01:22:12.199] right?

81:57

[01 22:12.199 – 01:22:22.599] Especially as introductory material, and like you will see online and everywhere, there's so many old, like, local sort of just, you know, small pamphlets about it.

82:07

[01 22:22.599 – 01:22:31.859] And initially I believe that ba- based on the little bit that, that I've seen of him write about it was like, "This is all to the good.

82:17

[01 22:31.859 – 01:22:32.839] It's helping folks.

82:19

[01 22:32.839 – 01:22:35.659] Great." Like, "Why should I be the sole author?

82:22

[01 22:35.659 – 01:22:45.679] Why should I be the sole voice, in essence, of Alcoholics Anonymous?" He, he, uh, he got a little bit wiser later because he saw that there

82:33

[01 22:45.679 – 01:22:56.379] was danger in that, and he had some experiences that are actually very well documented in, in, in, um, the book that Gary wrote about Bobby where, like, uh,

82:44

[01 22:56.379 – 01:22:58.359] you could say kind of anything, right?

82:46

[01 22:58.359 – 01:23:06.839] You can give your interpretation and maybe that interpretation could harm AA as a whole in a way that, you know, Bill certainly would not like, right?

82:57

[01 23:06.839 – 01:23:10.299] And those other folks who had more experience, like, saw the dangers of.

83:02

[01 23:10.299 – 01:23:20.579] So Bill recognized that and it started to concern him a little bit, and so there was talk prior to the first general service

83:11

[01 23:20.579 – 01:23:26.349] conference, um, before that tri- even before that, um, um ...

83:15

[01 23:26.349 – 01:23:27.659] Trying to think.

83:16

[01 23:27.659 – 01:23:30.699] No, no, no, it was during the trial period of the general service conference.

83:22

[01 23:30.699 – 01:23:32.109] See, this is where I can make mistakes.

83:25

[01 23:32.109 – 01:23:42.779] So this idea of having AA approved literature was, was probably coming up around in the, some time in the, I would imagine, the late 1940s, early 1950s,

83:36

[01 23:42.779 – 01:23:49.809] and there was discussion around how do we actually have, like, actual AA literature?

83:41

[01 23:49.809 – 01:23:59.959] And that turned out to be, I believe, a really, uh, wise choice because again, anyone could print anything and claim that it was AA.

83:50

[01 23:59.959 – 01:24:06.899] As I mentioned really, really briefly, the Little Red Book was offered to Alcoholics Anonymous, and it was declined.

83:58

[01 24:06.899 – 01:24:13.339] The 24 Hour a Day book was also offered to Alcoholics Anonymous, and was declined.

84:03

[01 24:13.339 – 01:24:23.039] So the lesson being there is, like, general service conference usually has gotta be the one to make the request or give the approval.

84:12

[01 24:23.039 – 01:24:33.159] So, um, I couldn't tell you what the thought process was on those general service conferences or AA or, um, disorganized organization that said no,

84:22

[01 24:33.159 – 01:24:35.319] but I hope that gives a little bit of insight.

84:26

[01 24:35.319 – 01:24:42.379] Thank you for the question, Andrew, and we'll do one more for tonight.

84:31

[01 24:42.379 – 01:24:43.959] Greg, you can unmute.

84:33

[01 24:43.959 – 01:24:48.599] Well, thank you very much, Kesting, and Tim, and everybody.

84:37

[01 24:48.599 – 01:24:50.679] Um, this has been a lot of fun.

84:40

[01 24:50.679 – 01:24:51.659] Love this group.

84:41

[01 24:51.659 – 01:24:53.659] And, uh, my name is Greg.

84:44

[01 24:53.659 – 01:25:01.599] I'm an alcoholic and I'm, I'm involved with several different AA historians and, uh, one of them, some of you may have never heard of, his name is Matt D.

84:55

[01 25:01.599 – 01:25:11.479] Matt D, um, was with Tom Powers, who helped Bill Wilson write the, um, the 12 and 12 and Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age.

85:04

[01 25:11.479 – 01:25:14.179] He was with him every day for, like, five years.

85:08

[01 25:14.179 – 01:25:15.479] He was with him when he died.

85:11

[01 25:15.479 – 01:25:24.719] He still runs Tom Powers' fellowship called triple A, which is actually Alcoholics Anonymous, um, big book 12 steps and Oxford.

85:18

[01 25:24.719 – 01:25:34.719] And long story short, my point is this, that supposedly according to the family, Tom Powers' family, he actually was a coas- a ghost

85:27

[01 25:34.719 – 01:25:35.659] writer.

85:28

[01 25:35.659 – 01:25:40.009] Have you ever heard that he contributed to ...

85:31

[01 25:40.009 – 01:25:50.139] He got credit for Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, but that his contribution to the 12 by 12 was the inventory section,

85:39

[01 25:50.139 – 01:26:00.619] and it's, I don't know if, if he was being humble, it wasn't documented, but according to Matt D, who was with him every day and runs his fellowship,

85:50

[01 26:00.679 – 01:26:02.959] he did more than, than people realize.

85:53

[01 26:02.959 – 01:26:05.819] Have you ever heard of that, Tom Powers?

85:56

[01 26:05.819 – 01:26:08.459] Uh, y- yes.

85:58

[01 26:08.459 – 01:26:12.299] So I've never heard any contribution about AA Comes of Age.

86:02

[01 26:12.299 – 01:26:15.669] I don't remember when Tom P.'s split was with Bill.

86:06

[01 26:15.669 – 01:26:18.369] I don't know off the top of my head what year that was.

86:11

[01 26:18.369 – 01:26:23.419] Uh, but AA Comes of Age was published, I wanna say it was August 1957.

86:17

[01 26:23.419 – 01:26:24.919] I think it was that month.

86:19

[01 26:24.919 – 01:26:27.859] Their split might have occurred before then.

86:22

[01 26:27.859 – 01:26:28.779] I don't really remember.

86:24

[01 26:28.779 – 01:26:31.769] That is totally, I've never heard that before that Tom P.

86:28

[01 26:31.769 – 01:26:33.619] had anything to do with AA Comes of Age.

86:32

[01 26:33.619 – 01:26:37.829] So if he- No, I was talking about the 12 by 12, that, that some people don't know.

86:38

[01 26:37.829 – 01:26:37.849] Yes.

86:39

[01 26:37.849 – 01:26:38.499] You, you mentioned both.

86:41

[01 26:38.499 – 01:26:39.939] So, so the first one- Okay ...

86:43

[01 26:39.939 – 01:26:41.729] AA Comes of Age, no, have not heard of that.

86:47

[01 26:41.729 – 01:26:43.459] 12 and 12, yes.

86:49

[01 26:43.459 – 01:26:46.759] There's some things I'm not gonna share that I know.

86:53

[01 26:46.759 – 01:26:51.579] What I can tell you is, uh, it's a little bit unclear.

86:57

[01 26:51.579 – 01:26:54.539] Does it sound like Tom made a contribution?

87:01

[01 26:54.539 – 01:26:57.299] Yeah, it really, it really does.

87:03

[01 26:57.299 – 01:26:59.179] Specifically, what could they be?

87:05

[01 26:59.179 – 01:27:00.119] I don't know.

87:07

[01 27:00.119 – 01:27:06.229] Um, often you would find that his son became kind of a mouthpiece for his father and- Yeah ...

87:14

[01 27:06.229 – 01:27:08.579] the words weren't coming directly from Tom P.

87:17

[01 27:08.579 – 01:27:09.559] himself.

87:18

[01 27:09.559 – 01:27:19.749] Um, so, so, uh, what, you know, according to Tom P., did he write with Bill and have input, and did they trade ideas?

87:27

[01 27:19.749 – 01:27:20.639] Yes, absolutely.

87:28

[01 27:20.639 – 01:27:22.279] To what extent, I do not know.

87:31

[01 27:22.279 – 01:27:27.559] And, um, that's about what I'll say, uh, on that topic, but yeah.

87:36

[01 27:27.559 – 01:27:28.059] Yeah, Tom P.

87:37

[01 27:28.059 – 01:27:30.639] was important, and there are people who know a lot more about him than I do.

87:43

[01 27:30.639 – 01:27:31.959] Well, well, thank you.

87:45

[01 27:31.959 – 01:27:33.579] I appreciate everything y'all do.

87:47

[01 27:33.579 – 01:27:34.878] Welcome.

87:48

[01 27:34.878 – 01:27:37.199] Thank you.

87:49

[01 27:37.199 – 01:27:42.469] Thank you for the question, Greg, and thank you again, Kesting, for your great presentation.

87:55

[01 27:42.469 – 01:27:46.199] And now I will allow everyone to unmute and thank Kesting.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

little red book presented by Kesting – 2025-07-08

little red book presented by Kesting – 2025-07-08

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