conversation with jimmy d presented by conversation with jimmy d – 2025-06-24

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Unknown Tuesday Night History Workshop • 2025

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Unknown ABOUT THIS WORKSHOP

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Unknown conversation with jimmy d speaking on "conversation with jimmy d" in Tuesday Night History Workshop (June 24, 2025). This recording is preserved in high-fidelity with interactive scrolling transcripts.

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Unknown Interactive Transcript

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[00 00:02.620 – 00:00:06.419] Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop.

0:15

[00 00:06.419 – 00:00:09.759] Thank you everyone for joining us tonight.

0:17

[00 00:09.759 – 00:00:16.620] My name is Tim, and tonight is the last Tuesday of June, so it is our night for a Conversation with a Longtimer.

0:25

[00 00:16.620 – 00:00:24.910] And tonight we have our conversation with Jimmy D from Long Island, New York.

0:29

[00 00:24.910 – 00:00:29.559] And Jimmy's sobriety date is July 31st, 1969.

0:32

[00 00:29.559 – 00:00:36.679] And we meet every Tuesday night at the same time and at the same Zoom ID number.

0:37

[00 00:36.679 – 00:00:46.060] And actually, next month for July for our Conversation with a Longtimer is Nancy M from Seal Beach, California.

0:44

[00 00:46.060 – 00:00:50.679] So join us again next month, uh, the last Tuesday of July.

0:48

[00 00:50.679 – 00:00:54.159] And this meeting is being recorded.

0:50

[00 00:54.159 – 00:01:02.060] The audio from tonight's presentation, as well as all of our past presentations, can be found at recoveryspeakers.com.

0:56

[00 01:02.060 – 00:01:12.180] And I will be sharing the link in the chat for anyone just joining us, where you can, uh, listen to the past recordings of the Conversations with Longtimers.

1:05

[00 01:12.180 – 00:01:22.560] And this meeting is not affiliated with any 12-step organization, although our goal is to focus on the,

1:11

[00 01:22.560 – 00:01:29.200] focus on the history of AA and other 12-step fellowships.

1:14

[00 01:29.200 – 00:01:39.219] Recoveryspeakers.com is dedicated to preserving and making the audio history of AA and the 12-step movement available for everyone

1:21

[00 01:39.219 – 00:01:40.560] today and in the future.

1:23

[00 01:40.560 – 00:01:51.329] We share a daily email that features a different speaker talk from the Recovery Speakers audio library, and included in the daily emails are

1:30

[00 01:51.329 – 00:01:55.739] the recordings of this meeting, as well as flyers for upcoming presentations.

1:34

[00 01:55.739 – 00:02:06.980] If you'd like to receive our daily email, you can subscribe through the link in the chat, or you can send me an email at info@recoveryspeakers.com

1:43

[00 02:06.980 – 00:02:09.599] and I will get you added to our email list.

1:47

[00 02:09.599 – 00:02:14.889] And Recovery Speakers is an official 501[c]3 public charity.

1:50

[00 02:14.889 – 00:02:25.219] If you are able to, we accept contributions which allow us to continue our work, and I have shared the link to make, uh, donations in the chat, as well as

2:00

[00 02:25.219 – 00:02:27.300] the QR code that is up on the screen.

2:03

[00 02:27.300 – 00:02:37.449] And tonight we should have some time for Q&A, so if anyone has questions for Jimmy at the end of the conversation

2:10

[00 02:37.449 – 00:02:43.319] with Penny, um, please write down your questions and be prepared to ask them at the end of the meeting.

2:17

[00 02:43.319 – 00:02:51.080] And now I'm gonna go ahead and turn it over to Penny, and you can...

2:22

[00 02:51.080 – 00:02:52.300] Yeah.

2:22

[00 02:52.300 – 00:02:55.479] Okay.

2:23

[00 02:55.479 – 00:02:57.039] Hi, y'all.

2:24

[00 02:57.039 – 00:02:57.599] I'm Penny P.

2:25

[00 02:57.599 – 00:03:00.599] I'm an alcoholic and, uh, grateful to be here.

2:28

[00 03:00.599 – 00:03:09.319] Just a brief introduction before I introduce, um, our, uh, convers- conversation person this evening, um, our longtimer.

2:34

[00 03:09.319 – 00:03:11.780] Um, some of you have been here before.

2:37

[00 03:11.780 – 00:03:13.900] Some of you, this may be your first time at this meeting.

2:41

[00 03:13.900 – 00:03:15.479] It is a little different format.

2:43

[00 03:15.479 – 00:03:23.120] Um, he- Jimmy is not going to, uh, speak this evening, but we're gonna hear his story through a conversation.

2:49

[00 03:23.120 – 00:03:30.199] And, um, we're not gonna talk, uh, too much about drinking because he's got, um, 1969.

2:54

[00 03:30.199 – 00:03:31.780] How many years is that?

2:56

[00 03:31.780 – 00:03:34.500] He's got all that sobriety that we wanna hear about.

3:00

[00 03:34.500 – 00:03:38.960] And so, um, 58, 59 years.

3:01

[00 03:38.960 – 00:03:42.759] Um, um, the math, it just went out of my head.

3:05

[00 03:42.759 – 00:03:47.240] So, um, we're gonna, um, we're gonna have a conversation.

3:08

[00 03:47.240 – 00:03:57.520] You know, uh, Tim mentioned that, um, they have the daily email with, um, with a speaker recording, uh, included.

3:15

[00 03:57.520 – 00:04:07.979] And, um, we will put the link to the chat where you can find the conversation with a new- uh, with a c- longtimer, um,

3:23

[00 04:07.979 – 00:04:09.039] recordings.

3:23

[00 04:09.039 – 00:04:11.800] But explore their library.

3:25

[00 04:11.800 – 00:04:19.579] There is-- They have an wonderful, wonderful library and archive of s- of old speaker tapes.

3:30

[00 04:19.579 – 00:04:29.620] So if you heard somebody speak one time and you thought, "Wow, where could I ever find that tape?" Go in and explore Recovery Speakers, because they have just

3:39

[00 04:29.620 – 00:04:32.019] a massive archive of, um, speakers.

3:42

[00 04:32.019 – 00:04:35.339] So I just wanted to put in a little plug for that.

3:46

[00 04:35.339 – 00:04:41.569] They've been kind enough to let me do this crazy idea for a couple of years now.

3:51

[00 04:41.569 – 00:04:52.500] And, um, some of you know, because you've been here before, that Joan S, who just celebrated 68 years of sobriety, was the inspiration for this idea.

3:59

[00 04:52.500 – 00:05:02.629] Um, I was sitting lis- and my friend Nancy K, I was sitting listening to Nancy do a talk on pioneer women in AA, and people were asking

4:08

[00 05:02.629 – 00:05:03.899] questions she couldn't answer.

4:10

[00 05:03.899 – 00:05:06.939] And I thought, "Wait a minute.

4:12

[00 05:06.939 – 00:05:10.529] We've got longtimers that can answer these questions about their sobriety.

4:16

[00 05:10.529 – 00:05:13.420] Let's talk to them." So that's how this got started.

4:19

[00 05:13.420 – 00:05:15.920] And, and Joan didn't wanna just answer questions.

4:22

[00 05:15.920 – 00:05:18.459] She wanted it to be a conversation rather than an interview.

4:26

[00 05:18.459 – 00:05:20.319] So that's what we're gonna do tonight.

4:28

[00 05:20.319 – 00:05:29.699] So, um, Tim, if you would go ahead and spotlight Jimmy and I, and, um, I'll have him come in and introduce himself.

4:35

[00 05:29.699 – 00:05:39.759] And Jimmy, if you would, um, give us your-- introduce us with your name, your sobriety date, and, um, your home group.

4:43

[00 05:39.759 – 00:05:47.459] Um, the, the vital statistics that we do when we're, uh, introducing ourselves in a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous.

4:49

[00 05:47.459 – 00:05:48.459] Sure, Penny.

4:50

[00 05:48.459 – 00:05:49.959] Uh, how's my volume?

4:51

[00 05:49.959 – 00:05:51.600] Ve- Perfect.

4:52

[00 05:51.600 – 00:05:52.300] Okay.

4:53

[00 05:52.300 – 00:05:53.860] Hi, everybody.

4:54

[00 05:53.860 – 00:05:54.579] My name is Jimmy D.

4:56

[00 05:54.579 – 00:05:56.740] I'm a recovered alcoholic.

4:57

[00 05:56.740 – 00:06:06.660] I like to introduce myself this way, that I am recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body by the grace of Almighty God, and this is the greatest gift I never wanted.

5:08

[00 06:06.660 – 00:06:08.827] Or anticipated.

5:09

[00 06:08.827 – 00:06:14.088] My home group is, uh, Bellmore Only Booze, and that's in Long Island.

5:13

[00 06:14.088 – 00:06:24.927] And if you look at my background, um, Long Island is probably right next to the Andromeda galaxy on my left shoulder, so, uh, I

5:21

[00 06:24.927 – 00:06:35.007] used to kid around with people and say, "My name is John Glenn." And then, as someone said, "The difference between you and John Glenn, Jim, is that John Glenn came back from outer

5:32

[00 06:35.007 – 00:06:38.548] space." So, uh, but I'm here with you folks.

5:35

[00 06:38.548 – 00:06:39.807] Now, go ahead, Penny.

5:37

[00 06:39.807 – 00:06:41.807] Uh, what else did you...

5:38

[00 06:41.807 – 00:06:49.567] Oh, oh, and my sober date by the grace of God is July the 31st, 1969, and that's double nickels and 11 months.

5:45

[00 06:49.567 – 00:06:58.127] So if I stay around and I'm still above ground and I'm still in recovery, by God's grace, I'll celebrate 56 years next month.

5:53

[00 06:58.127 – 00:07:00.327] Okey doke.

5:54

[00 07:00.327 – 00:07:03.767] Well, thank you so much for being willing to do this this evening.

5:58

[00 07:03.767 – 00:07:09.048] Um, I know it's kind of an unusual format for some of us, but it's really fun.

6:03

[00 07:09.048 – 00:07:09.848] I hope you'll enjoy it.

6:05

[00 07:09.848 – 00:07:13.978] And I know you were here last month, so you s- you saw kind of how we do this.

6:11

[00 07:13.978 – 00:07:24.747] So, um, as I told you when we talked before the meeting, we're not gonna talk about your drinking too much, but, um, I am gonna ask, uh, so what was going on

6:22

[00 07:24.747 – 00:07:28.038] in July of 1969- Oh ...

6:24

[00 07:28.038 – 00:07:38.208] that you thought, "Oh, you know, maybe I should o- I should go to that AA place." Well, isn't, that wasn't quite my, uh,

6:31

[00 07:38.208 – 00:07:40.608] thinking process in July of 1969.

6:33

[00 07:40.608 – 00:07:50.767] As a matter of fact, uh, in the middle of July, uh, probably around my wife's birthday, which is July 15th, probably right around there, I, uh,

6:42

[00 07:50.767 – 00:07:52.447] I dropped in to see...

6:44

[00 07:52.447 – 00:08:02.567] I was gonna drop in and see my parents, uh, who lived one half block from a church that I was raised in, and I hadn't been in that church in many, many years

6:55

[00 08:02.567 – 00:08:05.968] because I was pretty active in my alcoholism then.

6:58

[00 08:05.968 – 00:08:07.447] I was 26 years old.

6:59

[00 08:07.447 – 00:08:14.548] I was a New York City plainclothes policeman, and I was dressed like somebody out of Miami Vice show.

7:05

[00 08:14.548 – 00:08:24.687] And, uh, I, uh, I had th- you know, I really had this inkling that the way I'm living my life is not the way my God, God wants

7:15

[00 08:24.687 – 00:08:28.598] me to, not the way God wants me to be, although I, I, I really defended against that.

7:20

[00 08:29.252 – 00:08:34.372] So I dropped into this church a half block from my parents' house, and there was nobody in there.

7:27

[00 08:34.372 – 00:08:35.612] This was the middle of July.

7:29

[00 08:35.612 – 00:08:37.832] There's nobody in there that I could see anyway.

7:32

[00 08:37.832 – 00:08:45.212] And I, I called out and I said, "Listen, if there's anybody in here, you have to help me.

7:38

[00 08:45.212 – 00:08:50.852] Because the way I'm living my life, a real man does not live." And then I waited.

7:44

[00 08:50.852 – 00:08:54.952] I guess I was waiting for a beam of light to come out of the altar like I thought I was St.

7:51

[00 08:54.952 – 00:08:56.992] Paul on a donkey in the middle of Damascus.

7:54

[00 08:56.992 – 00:09:03.812] And nothing happened, so I gave it the old Irish salute, screw you, and knew this was all crap, and I left.

8:01

[00 09:03.812 – 00:09:13.932] Two weeks later, my father called me in the morning on July the 30th and he said, "When you finish work today, I'd like you to stop

8:09

[00 09:13.932 – 00:09:16.752] by the house," which is only a half block right from that church.

8:14

[00 09:16.752 – 00:09:23.752] So that afternoon, I stopped by, but I stopped for a couple of drinks first, and then I went in to see my dad.

8:22

[00 09:23.752 – 00:09:29.732] And when I walked in, my dad was sitting across the table from my brother, my oldest brother.

8:27

[00 09:29.732 – 00:09:31.492] My oldest brother was a police captain.

8:30

[00 09:31.492 – 00:09:34.312] My father was a retired detective, NYPD.

8:32

[00 09:34.312 – 00:09:38.832] And I knew right there that the, uh, jig was up.

8:36

[00 09:38.832 – 00:09:46.992] I was the product of a family intervention, I guess, and my wife was like a CIA whistleblower giving them all the information about me.

8:44

[00 09:46.992 – 00:09:54.602] And that's when they, uh, intervened and referred me to the NYPD employee assistance program the next day.

8:50

[00 09:54.602 – 00:09:57.192] So that was the date of my last drink.

8:53

[00 09:57.192 – 00:09:58.893] Uh, they have a policy.

8:55

[00 09:58.893 – 00:10:01.012] Just real quickly, I'll tell you this, uh, Penny.

8:58

[00 10:01.012 – 00:10:07.832] The way the NYPD did things with their EAP was a process called induced therapeutic surrender.

9:03

[00 10:07.832 – 00:10:18.393] Which meant you will comply with what we think you should do, and, uh, we'll give you a test, and if you fail the test,

9:11

[00 10:18.393 – 00:10:28.633] these 20 questions, uh, then you'll, uh, we'll develop a treatment plan, and you'll make your head go yes up and down, and you'll comply, and, uh, either that or you get another

9:21

[00 10:28.633 – 00:10:29.153] job.

9:22

[00 10:29.153 – 00:10:30.893] So there was a bit of leverage behind that.

9:25

[00 10:30.893 – 00:10:33.332] That's why I say it was the greatest gift I never wanted.

9:29

[00 10:33.332 – 00:10:43.633] So, um, did, uh, did NYPD put you into a, a treatment program, or, um, what was

9:35

[00 10:43.633 – 00:10:47.711] the, what was the pl- Well, first of all, what was on the test?

9:39

[00 10:47.711 – 00:10:50.352] Let's talk about the- That's what I'm gonna te- We'll have some fun.

9:44

[00 10:50.352 – 00:10:52.293] Because my wife was with me.

9:46

[00 10:52.293 – 00:10:54.572] The whistleblower was with me that day.

9:48

[00 10:54.572 – 00:10:59.072] And, uh, the counselor who was giving me the test really was not good at it.

9:53

[00 10:59.072 – 00:11:05.092] He was not a very good interviewer or, or a diagnostician, or whatever he would call himself.

9:59

[00 11:05.092 – 00:11:07.373] Because, say, he would ask questions like this.

10:02

[00 11:07.373 – 00:11:09.492] "Jimmy, uh, let me ask you a question.

10:05

[00 11:09.492 – 00:11:12.832] Do you, uh, ever have blackouts?" So I said, "What?

10:08

[00 11:12.832 – 00:11:13.952] No.

10:09

[00 11:13.952 – 00:11:17.033] Absolutely not." Blackouts?

10:10

[00 11:17.033 – 00:11:18.112] I'm 26 years old.

10:11

[00 11:18.112 – 00:11:19.572] I, I thought it was passing out.

10:13

[00 11:19.572 – 00:11:27.812] And so, uh, we go on a little bit in the conversation, and then, uh, he said, "Well, let me ask you another question." He marks down no, I said no.

10:23

[00 11:27.812 – 00:11:29.612] He asked me another question.

10:25

[00 11:29.612 – 00:11:35.423] He says, uh, "Do you, uh, have a preference for, uh, drinking alone or are you sort of a social drinker?

10:32

[00 11:35.423 – 00:11:38.812] Do you like drinking with people?" And I said, "Oh, yes.

10:36

[00 11:38.812 – 00:11:39.793] I'm a social drinker.

10:37

[00 11:39.793 – 00:11:43.052] I prefer to drink with people." And my wife said, "He does not.

10:42

[00 11:43.052 – 00:11:44.272] He drinks alone.

10:43

[00 11:44.272 – 00:11:48.793] He has a bottle down in the basement." So right off the bat I'm getting, my cover is getting blown here.

10:50

[00 11:48.793 – 00:11:53.252] And a little later on, he was pretty sharp, and he went with one of the other questions.

10:55

[00 11:53.252 – 00:11:56.133] He, he said to me, "You live in, uh, Brooklyn, uh, right?

10:59

[00 11:56.133 – 00:11:58.612] You don't own your own home." This was way back, right?

11:03

[00 11:58.612 – 00:12:08.712] I said, "No, I don't." "So you don't have a garage or a driveway where you park your car?" I said, "No." He said, "You park it in the street?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you ever forget, do you ever forget where you park

11:18

[00 12:08.712 – 00:12:12.072] your car?" And my wife said, "Every Sunday.

11:20

[00 12:12.072 – 00:12:14.072] He never remembers where he parks the car.

11:23

[00 12:14.072 – 00:12:22.072] Never." So any of the answers that I gave to this, this guy to, on the basis of those questions, they just marked yes.

11:31

[00 12:22.072 – 00:12:32.133] And he said, "James, well, we'd like to tell you we think you're an alcoholic, and we'd like you to take part in our treatment program." And then he outlined the treatment plan.

11:41

[00 12:32.133 – 00:12:33.633] And I complied.

11:43

[00 12:33.633 – 00:12:35.373] Not surrender, I complied.

11:44

[00 12:35.373 – 00:12:39.133] So was it an inpatient treatment program?

11:47

[00 12:39.133 – 00:12:39.712] Oh, yes.

11:48

[00 12:39.712 – 00:12:41.913] And- It was a five-day detox.

11:50

[00 12:41.913 – 00:12:42.442] Okay.

11:50

[00 12:42.442 – 00:12:44.072] It was a five-week rehab.

11:52

[00 12:44.072 – 00:12:54.113] And then the internal affairs division of the NYPD come up to visit me when I was in the rehab, and they did what I guess we might consider a fourth and a

12:03

[00 12:54.113 – 00:12:54.913] fifth step with me.

12:04

[00 12:54.913 – 00:12:56.153] Their version.

12:05

[00 12:56.153 – 00:13:02.512] Which meant I was in big trouble, so I was gonna be fired from my job.

12:10

[00 13:02.512 – 00:13:10.793] S- so, um, did the treatment program that you went to, so this is 1969.

12:15

[00 13:10.793 – 00:13:13.893] I got sober, um, eight years after you.

12:18

[00 13:13.893 – 00:13:16.052] Um- Oh.

12:19

[00 13:16.052 – 00:13:26.232] So some of the, uh, a lot of the treatment programs, some of them were associ- or weren't associated, but

12:25

[00 13:26.232 – 00:13:35.472] used the 12 steps, used the AA basics in their treatment program, and some of them were just starting to branch out a little bit.

12:33

[00 13:35.472 – 00:13:37.353] What kind of a treatment program was it?

12:36

[00 13:37.353 – 00:13:39.113] Did they talk to you about Alcoholics Anonymous?

12:38

[00 13:39.113 – 00:13:40.012] Totally AA.

12:39

[00 13:40.012 – 00:13:48.572] The, um, for s- for those of you in the east, you'll remember this man, fellow named Jim Cusack, who had 18 years of sobriety when I got up there.

12:49

[00 13:48.572 – 00:13:51.291] Uh, was the only counselor.

12:50

[00 13:51.291 – 00:13:52.293] He was the director.

12:52

[00 13:52.293 – 00:13:54.793] He was the counselor.

12:53

[00 13:54.793 – 00:13:55.572] He was everything.

12:55

[00 13:55.572 – 00:13:58.072] And, uh, he had a meeting every morning.

12:57

[00 13:58.072 – 00:14:05.043] So, uh, we used to listen, we had to listen to Father John Doe records, Father Fowl, which was the first- Mm-hmm ...

13:05

[00 14:05.043 – 00:14:06.143] Catholic priest at AA.

13:06

[00 14:06.143 – 00:14:06.462] Mm-hmm.

13:07

[00 14:06.462 – 00:14:10.732] And he went over the 12 steps, and we had to listen to these every single day.

13:12

[00 14:10.732 – 00:14:12.113] Then we had a meeting.

13:14

[00 14:12.113 – 00:14:17.712] Then AA people would come in and tell their story every night, or we would go out to AA meetings.

13:20

[00 14:17.712 – 00:14:21.072] It was totally AA and 12-step based.

13:23

[00 14:21.072 – 00:14:21.752] Totally.

13:23

[00 14:21.752 – 00:14:21.842] Mm-hmm.

13:24

[00 14:21.842 – 00:14:25.851] So by the time you left there, you were saturated with Alcoholics Anonymous.

13:28

[00 14:25.851 – 00:14:26.851] Saturated.

13:29

[00 14:26.851 – 00:14:30.712] And how mu- how many other people were in this treatment program with you?

13:34

[00 14:30.712 – 00:14:35.424] Well, there were some pe- some people who were actually residents there.

13:38

[00 14:35.424 – 00:14:41.944] They were, they were, they went through the p- the, the, the rehab and then they stayed there because they were homeless, so he kept them on board.

13:47

[00 14:41.944 – 00:14:47.024] And I guess there were probably five or six other policemen.

13:50

[00 14:47.024 – 00:14:52.384] He, he , the NYPD used this guy specifically.

13:53

[00 14:52.384 – 00:14:55.245] He, he, so he would send policemen up there.

13:56

[00 14:55.245 – 00:14:56.644] In fact, a, a quick story.

13:58

[00 14:56.644 – 00:15:01.884] I, when I first arrived, I, I met this fellow, uh, uh, Joe G.

14:03

[00 15:01.884 – 00:15:05.134] from Long Island, and, uh, he was quite famous.

14:06

[00 15:05.134 – 00:15:06.184] The late Joe G.

14:07

[00 15:06.184 – 00:15:08.044] And, uh, Joe G.

14:09

[00 15:08.044 – 00:15:09.495] was there a month before me.

14:11

[00 15:09.495 – 00:15:12.995] So we sat together on the porch and talked the first day I was there.

14:16

[00 15:12.995 – 00:15:17.644] And then years later, I used to go to Joe G.'s anniversaries in AA.

14:21

[00 15:17.644 – 00:15:19.125] And Joe G.

14:22

[00 15:19.125 – 00:15:29.125] would see me walk into the room, and he would say this to the people, "You know, when I was up in the rehab X number of years ago, I thought I was

14:33

[00 15:29.125 – 00:15:32.384] the sickest NYPD cop there ever was.

14:35

[00 15:32.384 – 00:15:41.174] But however, I sat down with this young fellow for an hour, and I realized I was the second sickest-" "...

14:42

[00 15:41.174 – 00:15:43.964] NYPD cop there ever was." And he was talking about me.

14:45

[00 15:43.964 – 00:15:48.544] But he, he died with 45 years of sobriety, Joe, so God bless him.

14:50

[00 15:48.544 – 00:15:49.585] Okay.

14:50

[00 15:49.585 – 00:15:52.014] So you're there, you're there for five weeks- Right ...

14:53

[00 15:52.014 – 00:15:56.464] and then do you get sprung and you get to go back to work, or what happens?

14:59

[00 15:56.464 – 00:15:58.004] No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

15:01

[00 15:58.004 – 00:15:58.495] No, no.

15:02

[00 15:58.495 – 00:16:08.884] As I told you, that in my case, the two, uh, two lieutenants from the Internal Affairs division come in to talk to me about the kinds of behavior that I was engaging in,

15:13

[00 16:08.884 – 00:16:10.794] that I was stopped in the church for that day.

15:17

[00 16:10.794 – 00:16:18.625] And, uh, much of it was, uh, just absolutely unacceptable, and possibly criminal, some of the behavior I was engaging in.

15:23

[00 16:18.625 – 00:16:24.625] And so they confronted me about that, and they presented me with what they called charges.

15:29

[00 16:24.625 – 00:16:32.345] Sort of like, uh, in the military would be, uh, you know, that, that I would be going to the, the brig for, for this.

15:37

[00 16:32.345 – 00:16:35.024] But anyway, so they presented me with these charges.

15:40

[00 16:35.024 – 00:16:36.745] I had to sign for them, and then they left.

15:43

[00 16:36.745 – 00:16:40.664] And then it, then it hit me that I was gonna lose my job.

15:48

[00 16:40.664 – 00:16:42.344] I was gonna be fired.

15:50

[00 16:42.344 – 00:16:52.345] And so I guess it was the next day, uh, all of the defense systems that I had, th- of this 26-year-old wise guy that thought this was fun,

15:59

[00 16:52.345 – 00:16:57.154] was broken, and I was rocketed into a deep clinical suicidal depression

16:03

[00 16:58.538 – 00:17:01.878] And filled with rage and anger at myself for getting caught.

16:07

[00 17:01.878 – 00:17:05.958] Not for engaging in the behavior, but for getting caught in the way I did.

16:11

[00 17:05.958 – 00:17:09.597] So I stayed there for five, the fifth week.

16:15

[00 17:09.597 – 00:17:10.897] Usually you stayed four.

16:16

[00 17:10.897 – 00:17:12.158] I stayed there for a fifth.

16:18

[00 17:12.158 – 00:17:17.478] And then I was, uh, I was picked up, as I told you that story.

16:23

[00 17:17.478 – 00:17:19.418] I was picked up, um...

16:25

[00 17:19.418 – 00:17:21.978] Oh, no, no.

16:26

[00 17:21.978 – 00:17:24.887] So, so I, I, I, let me just, I forgot that part.

16:30

[00 17:24.887 – 00:17:26.458] So, so I was discharged.

16:32

[00 17:26.458 – 00:17:28.728] Yes, I was discharged, but...

16:34

[00 17:28.728 – 00:17:32.637] And, and I had to report to the employee assistance program every day.

16:38

[00 17:32.637 – 00:17:33.647] I was on sick leave.

16:40

[00 17:33.647 – 00:17:34.538] I had no weapons.

16:42

[00 17:34.538 – 00:17:36.158] They took my weapons away, thank God.

16:44

[00 17:36.158 – 00:17:40.218] My wife bought me a yellow water pistol for Christmas in 1969.

16:48

[00 17:40.218 – 00:17:42.678] So, uh, I had no weapons.

16:50

[00 17:42.678 – 00:17:52.458] They, and I was on what they call limited duty or, uh, in the police department they'd had names for that, like the rubber gun squad and the bow and arrow squad, and I was a member of that.

17:02

[00 17:52.458 – 00:17:56.158] And, uh, and I, I had to go to AA meetings.

17:06

[00 17:56.158 – 00:18:00.317] And I did that for about maybe three weeks.

17:09

[00 18:00.317 – 00:18:06.657] And then I, uh, I made a call, I guess, to the employee assistance program.

17:14

[00 18:06.657 – 00:18:07.458] I don't remember this.

17:16

[00 18:07.458 – 00:18:08.498] My wife told me I did.

17:18

[00 18:08.498 – 00:18:12.557] And I told them that I was gonna jump in front of a, a train.

17:23

[00 18:12.557 – 00:18:14.498] I was gonna kill myself.

17:25

[00 18:14.498 – 00:18:24.778] And the next thing you know, there was an unmarked police car meeting me at this train station, and they threw me in the car and took, took me to a psychiatric

17:35

[00 18:24.778 – 00:18:25.238] hospital.

17:35

[00 18:25.238 – 00:18:34.877] And I was admitted for clinical depression, s- so, you know, severe episodes of depression and suicidal thoughts and plans.

17:42

[00 18:34.877 – 00:18:36.998] And I was in there for 30 days.

17:44

[00 18:36.998 – 00:18:39.758] And I had, uh, 10 shock treatments.

17:46

[00 18:39.758 – 00:18:49.817] And I, I can laugh at it today, but looking back, um, I usually say that Danny DeVito and Jack Nicholson were not there from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, but I was there.

17:58

[00 18:49.817 – 00:18:55.457] And, uh, and it was a very, very difficult, dark time in my life.

18:02

[00 18:55.457 – 00:19:02.758] And then I was discharged after 30 days and 10 shock treatments, and I told you the story of the discharge.

18:08

[00 19:02.758 – 00:19:07.738] Do you wanna go ahead and share that with the group?

18:12

[00 19:07.738 – 00:19:09.398] Sure.

18:13

[00 19:09.398 – 00:19:18.258] Uh, two peer counselors picked me up that day as I was discharged, and it was October of '69 at that point.

18:20

[00 19:18.258 – 00:19:28.538] And on the way home in this unmarked car, they informed me that, uh, my wife and I were to get, to shower and get dressed because we were going

18:29

[00 19:28.538 – 00:19:30.657] to a dinner dance that very night.

18:32

[00 19:30.657 – 00:19:37.856] It was the NYPD first annual EAP, uh, unit dinner dance.

18:35

[00 19:37.856 – 00:19:42.337] And I'm trying to explain to this guy that I'm just being discharged from a psych ward.

18:41

[00 19:42.337 – 00:19:43.918] I'm on medication.

18:42

[00 19:43.918 – 00:19:44.798] I'm depressed.

18:43

[00 19:44.798 – 00:19:47.438] Uh, I don't wanna go to a dinner dance.

18:46

[00 19:47.438 – 00:19:50.577] I'd rather have a crocodile in my toilet bowl than go to a dinner dance.

18:51

[00 19:50.577 – 00:19:59.018] But as I told you, their, their, uh, their, uh, uh, motivational format was, uh, induced therapeutic surrender.

18:57

[00 19:59.018 – 00:20:02.978] So Kathleen and I went to this dance, and I was depressed.

19:01

[00 20:02.978 – 00:20:09.278] And I was sitting there at the table of 10, and I didn't wanna be with, with other people, with eight other couples.

19:08

[00 20:09.278 – 00:20:10.198] I didn't wanna be with them.

19:10

[00 20:10.198 – 00:20:11.718] I couldn't look people in the eye.

19:13

[00 20:11.718 – 00:20:13.117] I was miserable.

19:14

[00 20:13.117 – 00:20:16.178] Uh, uh, they gave us prime ribs dinner.

19:17

[00 20:16.178 – 00:20:18.498] I couldn't eat it 'cause I was so down.

19:20

[00 20:18.498 – 00:20:22.698] I, my wife was trying to comfort me, but I was, I was out of it.

19:25

[00 20:22.698 – 00:20:27.938] I was totally, totally absorbed in fear and shame and guilt and depression.

19:29

[00 20:27.938 – 00:20:34.317] And all of a sudden at this dinner dance, they introduce an AA speaker, and it happened to be a Catholic priest.

19:37

[00 20:34.317 – 00:20:41.837] And he stood up to tell a story, and I really didn't have much of a connection with priests or religious at that time.

19:44

[00 20:41.837 – 00:20:44.938] I didn't have any connection per se with a God that I trusted.

19:49

[00 20:44.938 – 00:20:48.538] So I didn't really care much about his story 'cause I was too sick.

19:53

[00 20:48.538 – 00:20:58.898] And I listened to him, and then all of a sudden he got to the end of his story, and out of his pocket he pulled this little trifold card like

20:03

[00 20:58.898 – 00:21:07.918] so, and he said, "I'm gonna close the meeting with this little card." The name of the, uh, card is, on the card is Why We Were Chosen.

20:12

[00 21:07.918 – 00:21:10.298] And he began to read that.

20:14

[00 21:10.298 – 00:21:17.698] And as he read that Why We Were Chosen, and if I have a minute I'll give you just an excerpt.

20:21

[00 21:17.698 – 00:21:19.998] Would you like to hear an excerpt of that, Why We Were Chosen?

20:25

[00 21:19.998 – 00:21:20.048] Sure.

20:26

[00 21:20.048 – 00:21:21.038] Give us an excerpt.

20:27

[00 21:21.038 – 00:21:21.857] Sure.

20:28

[00 21:21.857 – 00:21:23.538] He begins to read this.

20:30

[00 21:23.538 – 00:21:33.378] "Instead of suspending the natural law by direct intervention, God in His wisdom has selected a group of men and women to be purveyors of His goodness.

20:39

[00 21:33.378 – 00:21:41.718] In selecting them through whom to bring about this phenomenon, He went not to the proud, the mighty, the famous or the brilliant.

20:46

[00 21:41.718 – 00:21:46.978] He went to the humble, to the sick, to the depressed, to the unfortunate.

20:51

[00 21:46.978 – 00:21:50.438] He went to the drunkard, the so-called weakling of the world.

20:54

[00 21:50.438 – 00:22:00.637] Well, might He have said to us," and I'm only gonna give you this excerpt, "into your weak and feeble hands," and this is what I heard, "into your weak and feeble hands, Jimmy,

21:05

[00 22:00.637 – 00:22:03.458] I have entrusted a power beyond estimate.

21:07

[00 22:03.458 – 00:22:07.857] To you has been given that which has been denied the most learned among you.

21:12

[00 22:07.857 – 00:22:17.878] Not to scientists or statesmen, not to spouses or other alcoholics or, or, or, uh, or, or the, the learned, but to alcoholics, which

21:20

[00 22:17.878 – 00:22:22.018] I entrust to you." And then he talks about carrying this message to other people.

21:25

[00 22:22.018 – 00:22:28.458] Absolutely, uh, it is so real it, it's like yesterday.

21:28

[00 22:28.458 – 00:22:31.938] Every single symptom of my depression lifted immediately.

21:31

[00 22:31.938 – 00:22:32.508] It was gone.

21:32

[00 22:32.508 – 00:22:34.698] I was no longer depressed.

21:34

[00 22:34.698 – 00:22:44.738] I was transformed with joy, uh, excitement, exhilaration, because I thought God was talking directly to me, that this was gonna be a taste of my future if I

21:44

[00 22:44.738 – 00:22:47.076] stuck around in this program.

21:45

[00 22:47.076 – 00:22:50.038] I ate my wife's prime, prime ribs 'cause she didn't want any more.

21:50

[00 22:50.038 – 00:22:51.218] I ate mine.

21:51

[00 22:51.218 – 00:22:53.458] I talked to the people at the table.

21:54

[00 22:53.458 – 00:22:56.798] I got up and thanked the people from the rehab, from detox.

21:58

[00 22:56.798 – 00:22:59.317] It was, I was a different man.

22:00

[00 22:59.317 – 00:23:03.210] And then I woke up in the morning and everything was back.

22:04

[00 23:03.210 – 00:23:11.750] The depression lasted for another 22 months, and I was event- Well, anyway, so that's the end of my story with that.

22:11

[00 23:11.750 – 00:23:14.840] But why we were chosen is very special to me because of that reason.

22:16

[00 23:14.840 – 00:23:15.150] Yeah.

22:16

[00 23:15.150 – 00:23:20.819] So, um, you'd been going to some AA meetings before you went to- Yes ...

22:21

[00 23:20.819 – 00:23:21.670] the psych ward.

22:22

[00 23:21.670 – 00:23:22.329] Yes.

22:23

[00 23:22.329 – 00:23:27.210] And had you, um, had you gotten a sponsor?

22:26

[00 23:27.210 – 00:23:30.549] Had you, um, had you g- did you have a Big Book?

22:30

[00 23:30.549 – 00:23:37.789] What was AA like in, um, the meetings that you were going to in...

22:34

[00 23:37.789 – 00:23:39.360] Where in New York were you going to meetings?

22:38

[00 23:39.360 – 00:23:40.090] You said Brooklyn.

22:39

[00 23:40.090 – 00:23:41.119] Were you going to meetings in Brooklyn?

22:41

[00 23:41.119 – 00:23:41.610] In Long, no, in Long Island.

22:43

[00 23:41.610 – 00:23:42.090] On Long Island.

22:45

[00 23:42.090 – 00:23:42.769] In Long Island.

22:46

[00 23:42.769 – 00:23:42.980] Yeah.

22:46

[00 23:42.980 – 00:23:53.209] Yeah, I was going to a group called The Turnpike in Levittown, and I did get a sponsor because the guy in the rehab, the fellow who ran the rehab, told us what we had to do,

22:58

[00 23:53.210 – 00:23:55.250] and so did the program, the EAP program.

23:01

[00 23:55.250 – 00:23:57.230] So they told me to get a sponsor.

23:04

[00 23:57.230 – 00:24:03.230] Pick a man, a man that, uh, I was a little intimidated by, that I couldn't bullcrap.

23:09

[00 24:03.230 – 00:24:09.809] So I picked this fellow, and you know how hard it is for a young cop to walk up to somebody and say, "Hi.

23:17

[00 24:09.809 – 00:24:14.619] I was wondering if you would be willing to sponsor me." And he s- this is what he said.

23:23

[00 24:14.619 – 00:24:20.210] He was a blue collar worker, a tough guy, and he said, "Yeah, Jimmy, I'll sponsor you.

23:29

[00 24:20.210 – 00:24:23.269] But if you drink, I ain't gonna sponsor you no more.

23:32

[00 24:23.269 – 00:24:27.599] You got it?" Did they read the Big Book?

23:36

[00 24:27.599 – 00:24:27.930] No.

23:36

[00 24:27.930 – 00:24:38.269] There, there was a, I guess the philosophy in my, in that group in those days was, uh, if you wanted to, uh, if you wanted to, uh, hide, uh, hide $20

23:46

[00 24:38.269 – 00:24:40.730] from an alcoholic, you put it in chapter five of the Big Book.

23:50

[00 24:40.730 – 00:24:42.509] But they were into service.

23:52

[00 24:42.509 – 00:24:43.990] Everybody did service.

23:53

[00 24:43.990 – 00:24:46.809] Carrying a message, speaking.

23:55

[00 24:46.809 – 00:24:51.380] And I got a little bit involved in that, but I was too depressed and sick to, to manage.

24:01

[00 24:51.380 – 00:24:55.090] That's, and it was soon after that that I was gonna ki- commit suicide.

24:06

[00 24:55.090 – 00:25:00.410] My sponsor wrote to me every single day in the, uh, psych ward- Wow ...

24:10

[00 25:00.410 – 00:25:01.670] as did my family.

24:12

[00 25:01.670 – 00:25:02.930] So he w- he held onto me.

24:14

[00 25:02.930 – 00:25:09.390] And then when you got out of the psych ward, did you go back with him as a sponsor?

24:21

[00 25:09.390 – 00:25:10.450] I certainly did.

24:22

[00 25:10.450 – 00:25:11.590] Okay.

24:22

[00 25:11.590 – 00:25:11.990] I certainly did.

24:24

[00 25:11.990 – 00:25:14.710] And, uh, and I got involved in the group.

24:27

[00 25:14.710 – 00:25:17.789] I, I, you know, I, I became a member of the group.

24:31

[00 25:17.789 – 00:25:19.210] They had beginners meetings.

24:32

[00 25:19.210 – 00:25:20.509] They had step meeting.

24:34

[00 25:20.509 – 00:25:25.759] They read, the steps were usually read from the 12 and 12, which was a pretty, uh-

24:39

[00 25:26.042 – 00:25:32.123] Onerous and difficult task when you have attention deficit disorder and you're, uh, you're not paying attention.

24:44

[00 25:32.123 – 00:25:34.962] Like, the 12-step has 20 pages in that book.

24:47

[00 25:34.962 – 00:25:42.192] So, uh, but eventually, you know, uh, I, I was pretty active.

24:51

[00 25:42.192 – 00:25:43.762] I became a treasurer of the group.

24:54

[00 25:43.762 – 00:25:46.041] Uh, I 12-stepped people.

24:55

[00 25:46.041 – 00:25:46.853] I got involved.

24:56

[00 25:46.853 – 00:25:54.782] And then I, I got onto the police department's contact list, so I would, I would go and help other, other policemen going through the program, you know?

25:05

[00 25:54.782 – 00:26:05.002] So I, I really wanna touch on, um, you said that you 12-stepped people, and I really wanna touch on that because, you know, I've had the privilege

25:14

[00 26:05.002 – 00:26:14.063] of doing 12-step calls, of getting those calls where we go out and we pick someone up, and we, and we walk them through those first early days.

25:23

[00 26:14.063 – 00:26:24.011] Um, could you tell us, do you have any memorable 12-step calls that you went on that, um, you'd like to share the experience or give a little- Sure ...

25:32

[00 26:24.011 – 00:26:25.583] flavor to- Sure.

25:34

[00 26:25.583 – 00:26:26.913] I'm gonna tell you two ...

25:35

[00 26:26.913 – 00:26:28.011] some of the folks in the room that- I'll tell you one- ...

25:39

[00 26:28.011 – 00:26:29.623] maybe haven't had the privilege of doing that.

25:42

[00 26:29.623 – 00:26:31.002] I'll tell you, I'll tell you two of them.

25:45

[00 26:31.002 – 00:26:35.462] One was later on that's very memorable to me, but th- this, this one was...

25:50

[00 26:35.462 – 00:26:41.202] I guess I had, I had about five years, and I, uh, I was 12-stepping another policeman.

25:56

[00 26:41.202 – 00:26:48.383] And by that time, by the way, just to let you folks know, I had, I had gone to trial in the NYPD after two years.

26:04

[00 26:48.383 – 00:26:49.962] I did not get fired.

26:06

[00 26:49.962 – 00:26:59.262] And eventually I got my, my firearms back, and back to full service, and, and I was working, you know, as a policeman, but I was still a member of the Turnpike.

26:16

[00 26:59.262 – 00:27:02.063] And, uh, and I got promoted to sergeant.

26:19

[00 27:02.063 – 00:27:06.462] And all of a sudden this fellow's wife called me one day and asked me...

26:24

[00 27:06.462 – 00:27:11.442] She knew I was in AA and she had my number, and she asked me if I could, uh, come over and talk to her husband.

26:32

[00 27:11.442 – 00:27:16.682] And he was a patrolman, which was a, a lower rank than me, and he hated sergeants.

26:38

[00 27:16.682 – 00:27:26.702] That's what he told me, "I hate sergeants." So anyway, I, uh, I take him to a, a meeting and I'm, I'm bringing him to the, our group and other meetings,

26:48

[00 27:26.702 – 00:27:30.663] and picking him up, and he was a very nervous guy.

26:51

[00 27:30.663 – 00:27:31.942] Extremely nervous.

26:52

[00 27:31.942 – 00:27:35.942] Deathly afraid of speaking aloud, you know, speaking out.

26:55

[00 27:35.942 – 00:27:36.702] Would never do that.

26:57

[00 27:36.702 – 00:27:42.333] So we're at my group one night in the Turnpike, and it's a business meeting, and they're having elections.

27:03

[00 27:42.333 – 00:27:49.242] And, uh, he's sitting next to me, and they, they, you know, it's al- the way they do it, it's not, it's not really fair.

27:11

[00 27:49.242 – 00:27:51.702] I mean, the chairperson is already selected.

27:14

[00 27:51.702 – 00:27:54.663] The, uh, secretary is selected beforehand, you know?

27:16

[00 27:54.663 – 00:27:56.222] They know who they're gonna ask.

27:18

[00 27:56.222 – 00:28:04.682] So they, they nominate this woman in our group for secretary, which means she has to stand up in front of the group and read all the announcements and everything, right?

27:28

[00 28:04.682 – 00:28:14.742] So they, they nominate her, her name was Arlene, and Arlene declines because she has another, she has another, uh, commitment.

27:35

[00 28:14.742 – 00:28:21.903] But when she was voted in, when she was, you know, nominated, she w- it was nominated, second, everybody clapped, and she was in.

27:43

[00 28:21.903 – 00:28:28.262] And this fella next to me s- leans over and says, "What a, what a railroad job that is.

27:49

[00 28:28.262 – 00:28:29.823] That's ridiculous.

27:50

[00 28:29.823 – 00:28:35.052] This isn't fair." So I don't, I don't say anything, and now they, they ask, the, the...

27:55

[00 28:35.052 – 00:28:45.113] In fact, my sponsor asks, "Is there anyone here who has a nomination for secretary?" And I raised my hand and I said, "Yes, I'd like to i- I'd like to nominate my friend Pat here for secretary." He had 30

28:08

[00 28:45.113 – 00:28:45.543] days.

28:09

[00 28:45.543 – 00:28:54.002] So, uh, he's seconded, they clap, and all of a sudden I turn around and I said, "What a railroad job that was.

28:16

[00 28:54.002 – 00:28:58.682] You're now our new secretary." And he was the secretary for a year.

28:20

[00 28:58.682 – 00:29:02.543] A year, and it kept him sober in that group, being, uh, the...

28:25

[00 29:02.543 – 00:29:12.603] And j- last comment, wh- I used to go to, we'd go to anniversaries, and when he read the readings, my children used to go to, like, my anniversary, right w- they, right early

28:36

[00 29:12.603 – 00:29:17.262] on, and when they were little, they would say to me, "Daddy, why does, why does Mr.

28:41

[00 29:17.262 – 00:29:22.202] Pat's hands shake so much when he's reading?" I said, "Because he's afraid of reading.

28:46

[00 29:22.202 – 00:29:25.903] He doesn't like to read." But that was one of the memorable 12-step calls.

28:51

[00 29:25.903 – 00:29:28.442] But I had another one.

28:52

[00 29:28.442 – 00:29:29.482] Okay.

28:53

[00 29:29.482 – 00:29:29.833] I had another one.

28:55

[00 29:29.833 – 00:29:29.833] Okay.

28:55

[00 29:29.833 – 00:29:31.103] Let's hear about the other ones.

28:57

[00 29:31.103 – 00:29:31.952] All right.

28:58

[00 29:31.952 – 00:29:42.461] I, I got promoted three times in the NYPD, and eventually, not only did I, was I a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, but when I had 11 years of sobriety,

29:08

[00 29:42.462 – 00:29:46.482] I was now a lieutenant and I became the commanding officer of the employee assistance program.

29:13

[00 29:46.482 – 00:29:47.643] I was now in charge of it.

29:15

[00 29:47.643 – 00:29:50.242] So I was taking cops and their families away.

29:18

[00 29:50.242 – 00:30:00.563] And one day, a, a fella who was retired was living on the Bowery, and was actually put off the police department for a psychiatric evaluation

29:27

[00 30:00.563 – 00:30:01.623] as well as alcoholism.

29:28

[00 30:01.623 – 00:30:03.302] So he was off the department.

29:30

[00 30:03.302 – 00:30:07.543] But he pops into my office, and he's got long, long hair.

29:34

[00 30:07.543 – 00:30:08.663] He's a, he's a bum.

29:36

[00 30:08.663 – 00:30:09.782] He's a Bowery guy.

29:38

[00 30:09.782 – 00:30:11.563] And he's...

29:39

[00 30:11.563 – 00:30:16.143] He had my name, and he's looking for my name, you know?

29:43

[00 30:16.143 – 00:30:18.282] And he says, uh, "I need help.

29:45

[00 30:18.282 – 00:30:28.512] Can you help me?" So we, I interview him, and the next thing you know, fr- guys, other counselors that were working for me are bringing in pants, and shirts, and,

29:55

[00 30:28.512 – 00:30:30.482] and clothing, and, and we're dressing him.

29:58

[00 30:30.482 – 00:30:37.002] And we took him to detox, and we took him to various places, and he kept relapsing because he was a g- compulsive gambler as well.

30:06

[00 30:37.002 – 00:30:40.543] So he was also a psychiatric patient.

30:08

[00 30:40.543 – 00:30:43.682] He was severely psychiatric, but he was an alcoholic.

30:11

[00 30:43.682 – 00:30:51.063] So after one of his relapses, I put him in an unmarked car with me, just me.

30:17

[00 30:51.063 – 00:30:56.242] He's in the passenger seat, and me, and we're driving out to a, a, a detox.

30:22

[00 30:56.242 – 00:30:58.782] I'm driving him to a detox, and I'm on a highway.

30:26

[00 30:58.782 – 00:31:04.962] Like, a, like, you know, uh, what, what do you guys call it in California, those, those highways?

30:32

[00 31:04.962 – 00:31:05.702] Super highways.

30:33

[00 31:05.702 – 00:31:09.822] And I'm doing, like, 65 miles an hour with this fellow, and he's next to me.

30:38

[00 31:09.822 – 00:31:19.822] And he's looking at the police radios in this unmarked car, and he starts to decompensate, and he starts curling up, and he's telling me that he's

30:46

[00 31:19.822 – 00:31:20.423] gonna hit me.

30:48

[00 31:20.423 – 00:31:24.242] "I'm gonna punch you." And I'm driving at 65 miles an hour on the highway.

30:52

[00 31:24.242 – 00:31:26.802] So, and his name was Billy.

30:54

[00 31:26.802 – 00:31:32.586] So I yell at him and I say, "Billy-" Police officers do not hit lieutenants.

30:59

[00 31:32.586 – 00:31:33.987] You don't punch a lieutenant.

31:01

[00 31:33.987 – 00:31:36.807] And I'm trying to adapt to this situation.

31:04

[00 31:36.807 – 00:31:40.007] And he's calling, telling me that I'm in internal affairs.

31:07

[00 31:40.007 – 00:31:41.706] I can see it in the radios.

31:10

[00 31:41.706 – 00:31:43.527] You're talking to me through the, through the radios.

31:13

[00 31:43.527 – 00:31:45.017] Mm.

31:13

[00 31:45.017 – 00:31:49.346] And I'm thinking, "Oh my God." But one of the things I know about him is he's a doo-wop nut.

31:20

[00 31:49.346 – 00:31:52.146] He was a member of a doo-wop group.

31:23

[00 31:52.146 – 00:31:54.406] He knows all doo-wop songs.

31:25

[00 31:54.406 – 00:31:56.987] He knows record labels and all kinds of stuff.

31:28

[00 31:56.987 – 00:32:00.807] And I sang in a doo-wop group when I was a teenager.

31:32

[00 32:00.807 – 00:32:10.807] So I finally said to him, "Billy." I said, "Billy, if I was internal affairs and if I was trying to harm you, would

31:39

[00 32:10.807 – 00:32:12.706] I do this?" And I went like this.

31:42

[00 32:12.706 – 00:32:19.007] Please say you want me too.

31:44

[00 32:19.007 – 00:32:22.326] And he starts harmonizing with me.

31:46

[00 32:22.326 – 00:32:24.807] Do, do, do, do, do, do.

31:49

[00 32:24.807 – 00:32:27.646] All the way out to the rehab, to the, uh, detox.

31:52

[00 32:27.646 – 00:32:28.706] I got him out there.

31:54

[00 32:28.706 – 00:32:36.427] And then the white coats come out and took him away and he eventually got sober, and he died sober.

32:01

[00 32:36.427 – 00:32:37.947] He died a sober man.

32:02

[00 32:37.947 – 00:32:48.226] And his brother called us up after a while, uh, after he had passed, and I was still in the, uh, running that program, and his brother made a very, very big donation

32:13

[00 32:48.226 – 00:32:48.807] to the new...

32:14

[00 32:48.807 – 00:32:54.326] Not to me or to the o- uh, the unit, but to the police relief fund because of all the help we gave that guy.

32:22

[00 32:54.326 – 00:32:57.166] I had him speak at one of my anniversaries.

32:25

[00 32:57.166 – 00:32:58.976] Oh, that's wonderful.

32:27

[00 32:58.976 – 00:33:00.267] A Bowery, a Bowery bum.

32:28

[00 33:00.267 – 00:33:01.485] God bless him.

32:30

[00 33:01.485 – 00:33:02.626] A Bowery bum.

32:31

[00 33:02.626 – 00:33:12.517] So, um, it, how did your sponsor take you through, you said that your, uh, that you used, uh, 12 and 12 to go through the steps.

32:39

[00 33:12.517 – 00:33:17.366] Um, how did your sponsor take you through the steps?

32:42

[00 33:17.366 – 00:33:17.396] He didn't.

32:43

[00 33:17.396 – 00:33:18.467] What was- He, he, he didn't ...

32:45

[00 33:18.467 – 00:33:21.126] um, what was going through the steps like for you?

32:49

[00 33:21.126 – 00:33:22.406] He, he didn't do that.

32:51

[00 33:22.406 – 00:33:31.186] I'll, I'll tell you, I, I went through the steps, you know, using that, u- using the 12 and 12, but I, I don't think, I really didn't get much out of it.

33:00

[00 33:31.186 – 00:33:33.787] I, I, I didn't, I wasn't doing that.

33:03

[00 33:33.787 – 00:33:35.007] I wasn't really into it.

33:05

[00 33:35.007 – 00:33:38.746] And that, that was like the first four years or so in the program.

33:10

[00 33:38.746 – 00:33:47.287] Um, you know, I went to step meetings and I would read the steps, but I wasn't really a, I would, I would say that I was not a practitioner.

33:19

[00 33:47.287 – 00:33:54.406] Uh, I developed, uh, you know, I, I certainly had surrendered eventually my compliance with the program-

33:25

[00 33:55.307 – 00:34:01.147] Morphed into surrender, so I surrendered to the fact that I'm powerless and that my life was absolutely unmanageable.

33:31

[00 34:01.147 – 00:34:03.367] So step one took to me.

33:33

[00 34:03.367 – 00:34:05.907] The obsession and the compulsion was lifted.

33:36

[00 34:05.907 – 00:34:06.867] It was taken from me.

33:37

[00 34:06.867 – 00:34:12.268] I, I, I believed in a higher power, I believed in God, but I...

33:42

[00 34:12.268 – 00:34:16.827] but it was more, at, at first it was my sponsor was my higher power, and then the group.

33:48

[00 34:16.827 – 00:34:21.588] And then step three, I would come home and I would totally misapply that.

33:53

[00 34:21.588 – 00:34:26.628] I would, I would get on my knees and ask God to do this, this, this, this, and this.

33:59

[00 34:26.628 – 00:34:27.307] You know?

34:00

[00 34:27.307 – 00:34:29.007] Not- it was one surrender of my life.

34:03

[00 34:29.007 – 00:34:30.007] It was, it was...

34:04

[00 34:30.007 – 00:34:34.347] I would ask him to do these things and, uh, remove my fear or do this, do that.

34:10

[00 34:34.347 – 00:34:36.228] I would do a little bit of six.

34:13

[00 34:36.228 – 00:34:41.288] S- uh, I would skip seven because I wasn't ready to give up some of my defects of character.

34:19

[00 34:41.288 – 00:34:44.327] Uh, someone or two of them was really troublesome.

34:22

[00 34:44.327 – 00:34:47.547] So, um, I'll tell you the truth.

34:25

[00 34:47.547 – 00:34:56.108] It wasn't really until I had a whole lot of time in the program that I went to a, um, I went...

34:32

[00 34:56.108 – 00:35:01.847] And, and, and I, I think I mentioned it to you, I even had a conversion experience with five years in the program.

34:39

[00 35:01.847 – 00:35:11.288] And I, uh, being, being the kind of a guy that can be very obsessive and compulsive, I became, uh, I became a little fanatical about that.

34:48

[00 35:11.288 – 00:35:12.648] I became the second coming of...

34:50

[00 35:12.648 – 00:35:18.418] people used to say to me, "You, you're like the second coming of Billy Graham and El McGantry all rolled into one." I drove people crazy.

34:59

[00 35:18.418 – 00:35:22.648] I, I was speaking, I was into the Bible more, more than I was the big book.

35:04

[00 35:22.648 – 00:35:23.748] Mm-hmm.

35:05

[00 35:23.748 – 00:35:25.668] And speaking chapter and verse in the Bible.

35:07

[00 35:25.668 – 00:35:29.648] And if you asked me a question, I'd give you something, a quote from the big book, you know?

35:14

[00 35:29.648 – 00:35:34.648] And, and, uh, so I was, I was really driving some people crazy, because I was a bit fanatical.

35:20

[00 35:34.648 – 00:35:35.697] So what happens?

35:21

[00 35:35.697 – 00:35:37.248] How do I really get into the steps?

35:24

[00 35:37.248 – 00:35:47.527] I go to a convention, and on the convention, a guy that I sponsor goes over to a table and buys a book called Back to Basics: The Alcoholics Anonymous Beginners

35:34

[00 35:47.527 – 00:35:49.148] Meetings of the 1940s.

35:35

[00 35:49.148 – 00:35:51.606] And he starts to read it.

35:37

[00 35:51.606 – 00:36:01.847] And by the way, the, the title of the book says, um, they took alcoholics through the 12 steps in five consecutive weeks in Akron,

35:45

[00 36:01.847 – 00:36:05.467] Ohio from 1941 to the end of 1950s.

35:48

[00 36:05.467 – 00:36:12.108] So my s- my sponsee reads some of the book, and then he says to me, "I'm gonna give this to you.

35:55

[00 36:12.108 – 00:36:14.507] This is for you." I read it.

35:57

[00 36:14.507 – 00:36:16.027] I read it.

35:58

[00 36:16.027 – 00:36:19.748] I had 40 years in AA at the time that I read the book.

36:03

[00 36:19.748 – 00:36:20.467] I read that book.

36:04

[00 36:20.467 – 00:36:23.407] And I also had a spiritual director.

36:07

[00 36:23.407 – 00:36:33.708] So I went over with the way the, the way the founders in, in Akron laid out steps four and five, and I did that with my s- with my spiritual

36:17

[00 36:33.708 – 00:36:35.268] director that way.

36:18

[00 36:35.268 – 00:36:41.547] And I said to him, "Something in me is telling me that I should do these workshops.

36:23

[00 36:41.547 – 00:36:47.818] I should put on these workshops like, like the founders did." But I don't wanna do it.

36:29

[00 36:47.818 – 00:36:49.088] I have 40 years in the program.

36:31

[00 36:49.088 – 00:36:50.088] Let somebody else do this.

36:33

[00 36:50.088 – 00:36:51.807] I told my spiritual director this.

36:35

[00 36:51.807 – 00:36:53.668] He was a Catholic priest.

36:37

[00 36:53.668 – 00:37:01.427] And as I'm going through the steps with him, the way they did it is you don't write, they write.

36:43

[00 37:01.427 – 00:37:06.068] The s- the, the, the listener li- the, the sharing partner listen, no, the sponsor listen.

36:49

[00 37:06.068 – 00:37:08.007] So he, I start to go down the list.

36:52

[00 37:08.007 – 00:37:09.458] I list my resentments.

36:53

[00 37:09.458 – 00:37:11.208] Well, there weren't too many.

36:55

[00 37:11.208 – 00:37:18.867] I list my fears and my, and my self-centeredness and, and my dishonesty and I'm going down my, my liability list, so to speak.

37:03

[00 37:18.867 – 00:37:22.927] And I get to jealousy and envy .

37:05

[00 37:22.927 – 00:37:32.806] And the priest says, "Oh my God, I'm full of alec- je- jealousy and envy." And he starts telling me about his brother and how he, he's jealous of his brother and this and that.

37:16

[00 37:32.806 – 00:37:38.248] A- and I'm listening to him, which you know happens to us when we, when we do this work when, uh, uh, with someone.

37:24

[00 37:38.248 – 00:37:43.128] And when he, when I'm finished this, he says to me, "I love this.

37:29

[00 37:43.128 – 00:37:49.507] I am gonna take this inventory, this moral inventory, this step four, to the Redemptoris Seminary.

37:34

[00 37:49.507 – 00:37:50.268] We're gonna use this.

37:35

[00 37:50.268 – 00:37:50.768] I love this.

37:37

[00 37:50.768 – 00:37:52.588] And I'll tell you what else," he says.

37:39

[00 37:52.588 – 00:37:55.168] "You are gonna do these workshops.

37:42

[00 37:55.168 – 00:38:05.307] You're gonna do them, and I'm gonna get you the place." So in November of n- of 2010, 15 years ago, my, my sponsee

37:49

[00 38:05.307 – 00:38:08.248] Marty and I put on these workshops twice a year.

37:52

[00 38:08.248 – 00:38:13.708] We have a mailing list of 700 people who have gone through these step, through the 12 steps this way.

37:58

[00 38:13.708 – 00:38:17.407] So that's a, that is my ministry, so to speak, right?

38:02

[00 38:17.407 – 00:38:17.648] Yeah.

38:02

[00 38:17.648 – 00:38:20.268] And, and the way the founders of Akron did it.

38:06

[00 38:20.268 – 00:38:22.847] And we have another one coming up in September.

38:09

[00 38:22.847 – 00:38:25.087] I'm gonna start again in September for four weeks.

38:12

[00 38:25.087 – 00:38:27.427] We do it in, we do it in five weeks.

38:15

[00 38:27.427 – 00:38:29.007] I'm sorry.

38:16

[00 38:29.007 – 00:38:32.947] We do it in four weeks, but for 90 minutes each s- each session.

38:21

[00 38:32.947 – 00:38:36.608] The founders did it for one hour, four one-hour sessions.

38:24

[00 38:36.608 – 00:38:44.768] So it's become a, a fairly popular, uh, way to carry the message and to guide other people through the 12 steps.

38:31

[00 38:44.768 – 00:38:45.847] And I'll end with this.

38:33

[00 38:45.847 – 00:38:46.847] It's nice.

38:33

[00 38:46.847 – 00:38:55.318] I know it sounds crazy to some people that say like, "Oh my goodness, you take people through the 12 steps in four weeks?" Well, this was the thinking of the pioneers in Akron, Dr.

38:44

[00 38:55.318 – 00:38:57.327] Bob and the rest of those folks there.

38:47

[00 38:57.327 – 00:39:05.628] They wanted to get us into recovery rapidly in the steps, and then live 10, 11, and 12 for the rest of our lives.

38:54

[00 39:05.628 – 00:39:08.947] Because step 10 embodies four through nine.

38:56

[00 39:08.947 – 00:39:17.128] And if you're working, you know, if you have your prayer life and your meditation going, you're already through one, two, and three, and now you got four through nine in step 10.

39:06

[00 39:17.128 – 00:39:19.967] So it's a, it's a beautiful, beautiful process.

39:09

[00 39:19.967 – 00:39:26.427] It has deepened my recovery by an unimaginable, uh, uh, depth.

39:13

[00 39:26.427 – 00:39:27.237] I'm telling you.

39:14

[00 39:27.237 – 00:39:28.407] So anyway.

39:15

[00 39:28.407 – 00:39:33.898] So my, uh, this is part of the conversation part of this, uh- Good ...

39:19

[00 39:33.898 – 00:39:35.487] of this meeting.

39:21

[00 39:35.487 – 00:39:42.628] My, uh, my home group is an online meeting, and it's, uh, ba- it's an English-speaking meeting out of Shanghai, China.

39:27

[00 39:42.628 – 00:39:43.268] Hmm.

39:28

[00 39:43.268 – 00:39:47.527] And, um, I've been involved in the online community for a lot of years.

39:33

[00 39:47.527 – 00:39:51.987] And, um, it's been my home group since 2017.

39:35

[00 39:51.987 – 00:40:02.016] There's a guy that goes to my meeting, Paul S.- And, um, he talks about 10, 11, and 12, and he said, he said 10,

39:43

[00 40:02.016 – 00:40:04.715] 11, and 12 are his walking around steps.

39:45

[00 40:04.715 – 00:40:05.405] That's right.

39:46

[00 40:05.405 – 00:40:10.895] And he said because 10, 11, and 12 are one through nine all the time.

39:50

[00 40:10.895 – 00:40:12.255] Absolutely.

39:50

[00 40:12.255 – 00:40:13.835] Absolutely.

39:51

[00 40:13.835 – 00:40:14.286] Absolutely.

39:51

[00 40:14.286 – 00:40:18.735] And as you were sharing that, I could, I can just hear Paul saying that in the back of my head.

39:58

[00 40:18.735 – 00:40:18.766] Yeah.

39:59

[00 40:18.766 – 00:40:25.376] I'm gonna throw that- Well, you know, people call them the maintenance, like especially step 10, they call it a maintenance step when we get into step 10, 11, and 12.

40:08

[00 40:25.376 – 00:40:27.755] It is that, but it isn't that.

40:10

[00 40:27.755 – 00:40:31.195] It's, it's about growth and understanding.

40:12

[00 40:31.195 – 00:40:39.275] That's what, that's what step 10, 11, and 12 are to me, and deepening my relationship with the God of my conception, the God of my understanding.

40:20

[00 40:39.275 – 00:40:40.675] So yeah.

40:21

[00 40:40.675 – 00:40:44.916] So, um, do you sponsor guys?

40:23

[00 40:44.916 – 00:40:46.496] Yeah.

40:24

[00 40:46.496 – 00:40:47.135] I, I have...

40:25

[00 40:47.135 – 00:40:50.295] I, actually, the way I, I do.

40:27

[00 40:50.295 – 00:40:56.016] I s- they call me their sponsor, but this is what I do, and I learned this from a man who was really into the 12 steps.

40:36

[00 40:56.016 – 00:40:59.295] Uh, and this, he taught me this a long time ago.

40:39

[00 40:59.295 – 00:41:05.895] He said, "When people call me and say, 'Listen, uh, Jim, would you sponsor me?' This is my response.

40:46

[00 41:05.895 – 00:41:14.436] If what you mean by that is guide you through the 12 steps the way the founders of this program did it, I'm all in.

40:53

[00 41:14.436 – 00:41:21.855] We'll go through the steps together, and after that, we become friends." And that's what I do, and that's what he does.

41:01

[00 41:21.855 – 00:41:23.715] I'm not a policeman.

41:02

[00 41:23.715 – 00:41:26.735] I'm not, I'm not into that thing.

41:05

[00 41:26.735 – 00:41:33.675] And, and I'm, although I was a therapist, a v- you know, I wound up with a very advanced education and a lot of credentials.

41:13

[00 41:33.675 – 00:41:42.135] I became a ther- a therapist at one time, um, which is hard to believe having been in, uh, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, but, uh, many years ago.

41:22

[00 41:42.135 – 00:41:44.635] But I, I'm not, I, I don't engage in that.

41:26

[00 41:44.635 – 00:41:50.395] I'm, I'm interested in people developing a relationship with their higher power because He can't fail.

41:31

[00 41:50.395 – 00:41:52.195] People fail.

41:32

[00 41:52.195 – 00:41:54.376] And then I'll, I'll become a friend.

41:34

[00 41:54.376 – 00:41:57.135] They still wanna call me their sponsor.

41:37

[00 41:57.135 – 00:41:59.155] I don't call people sponsees.

41:38

[00 41:59.155 – 00:42:00.076] That's not my thing.

41:40

[00 42:00.076 – 00:42:02.355] Okay.

41:41

[00 42:02.355 – 00:42:04.036] And I have a sponsor, by the way.

41:43

[00 42:04.036 – 00:42:04.775] I have a sponsor.

41:45

[00 42:04.775 – 00:42:06.494] And you have a sponsor.

41:47

[00 42:06.494 – 00:42:06.645] Right.

41:47

[00 42:06.645 – 00:42:08.456] Uh, how often do you talk to your sponsor?

41:50

[00 42:08.456 – 00:42:11.456] Uh, maybe once a month.

41:52

[00 42:11.456 – 00:42:13.855] Yeah.

41:53

[00 42:13.855 – 00:42:16.916] And so that's sort of a friendship, too, you know?

41:56

[00 42:16.916 – 00:42:17.976] Okay.

41:57

[00 42:17.976 – 00:42:18.826] So.

41:58

[00 42:18.826 – 00:42:19.295] Okay.

41:58

[00 42:19.295 – 00:42:23.085] And, um, have you had any experiences-

42:01

[00 42:23.292 – 00:42:25.972] So y- 55 years sober.

42:02

[00 42:25.972 – 00:42:35.992] Have, um, is there anything that stands out in your recovery that was just, um, whether it was, uh, something difficult

42:09

[00 42:35.992 – 00:42:45.992] that you got through and you got through it because of the steps and support from the program or, um, something really amazing that happened as a result

42:18

[00 42:45.992 – 00:42:47.492] of the program?

42:19

[00 42:47.492 – 00:42:51.892] Do you have anything, any stories about something like that to share with the group?

42:24

[00 42:51.892 – 00:42:53.032] Yeah.

42:25

[00 42:53.032 – 00:42:56.292] I had 29 years in the program and I was going through a depression again.

42:29

[00 42:56.292 – 00:42:57.352] It visited on me.

42:31

[00 42:57.352 – 00:42:59.392] And that's how I would put it.

42:33

[00 42:59.392 – 00:43:09.412] I would never say, "I am depressed." A great mystic that I used to read much, m- much of his stuff, an Anthony de Mello, used to say, "Don't ever say that, 'I am depressed,

42:44

[00 43:09.412 – 00:43:11.672] I am sick, I am..." No, no, no.

42:47

[00 43:11.672 – 00:43:12.992] It visited on me.

42:49

[00 43:12.992 – 00:43:15.492] Well, in 29 years of sobriety, it visited on me.

42:52

[00 43:15.492 – 00:43:24.192] And my sponsor at that time, uh, had, uh, let's see, 37, 38 years of sobriety.

42:56

[00 43:24.192 – 00:43:27.712] And, um, we were very, very close.

42:59

[00 43:27.712 – 00:43:29.172] He was a very tough guy.

43:01

[00 43:29.172 – 00:43:37.262] Uh, he had a missing vocal cord, so when he spoke to me he would speak like this, "Jimmy, I want you to listen to me," you know?

43:10

[00 43:37.262 – 00:43:38.852] And he was very stern and tough.

43:13

[00 43:38.852 – 00:43:42.252] So we both read this book every day.

43:15

[00 43:42.252 – 00:43:45.032] It was our, our devotional called God Calling.

43:18

[00 43:45.032 – 00:43:49.392] It was written in 1932 by, uh, two women, remained anonymous.

43:21

[00 43:49.392 – 00:43:51.372] Members of the Oxford Group, by the way.

43:24

[00 43:51.372 – 00:44:01.512] And so he and I used to read this devotional every day, and eventually he went blind from macular degeneration, but he, he had all the God Calling readings for each day

43:34

[00 44:01.512 – 00:44:02.552] on, on tape.

43:36

[00 44:02.552 – 00:44:04.632] So he knew them.

43:37

[00 44:04.632 – 00:44:06.032] He memorized half of them, you know?

43:40

[00 44:06.032 – 00:44:08.832] So I call him up one day and I'm really in a bad space.

43:44

[00 44:08.832 – 00:44:10.831] Depression has visited on me.

43:46

[00 44:10.831 – 00:44:12.312] I'm in a different job.

43:48

[00 44:12.312 – 00:44:13.752] I'm retired from the police department.

43:50

[00 44:13.752 – 00:44:14.952] I'm the head of an agency.

43:52

[00 44:14.952 – 00:44:18.232] I'm a c- a licensed clinical social worker.

43:55

[00 44:18.232 – 00:44:19.832] I'm a credentialed addictions counselor.

43:57

[00 44:19.832 – 00:44:29.342] I'm a professional, and I'm the head of an agency, and I'm comparing myself with someone who's the head of an agency just like mine, only I'm there two years and she's there 20.

44:07

[00 44:29.342 – 00:44:36.132] And I'm coming up short, naturally, because when we compare, we pull into shame binds, and I'm in a shame bind.

44:14

[00 44:36.132 – 00:44:39.192] And I, I call him up to whine.

44:17

[00 44:39.192 – 00:44:39.812] I'm whining.

44:18

[00 44:39.812 – 00:44:42.331] W-H-I-N-E, to him.

44:19

[00 44:42.331 – 00:44:53.292] And I don't even get halfway through the whining and he says to me, over the phone by the way, "Do you have God Calling there?" And

44:28

[00 44:53.292 – 00:44:56.032] I said, "Yeah, yes, I have God...

44:30

[00 44:56.032 – 00:44:57.932] Yeah, I have God Calling." So it was on my desk.

44:34

[00 44:57.932 – 00:45:05.672] "Yes, I have it." "Open it up to November the 7th and read it to me." So I open it up to November the 7th.

44:42

[00 45:05.672 – 00:45:07.172] I don't wanna read it to him.

44:44

[00 45:07.172 – 00:45:08.752] I'd rather complain and whine.

44:46

[00 45:08.752 – 00:45:15.592] But I read this thing, and November the 7th in God Calling is something like this.

44:52

[00 45:15.592 – 00:45:18.932] It's like God speaking to these two women who are now speaking to us, right?

44:56

[00 45:18.932 – 00:45:22.392] And God says, "Consider the pipe.

44:59

[00 45:22.392 – 00:45:26.092] Can a pipe ever say it is a good pipe or a bad pipe?

45:03

[00 45:26.092 – 00:45:26.752] No.

45:04

[00 45:26.752 – 00:45:29.732] The pipe's job is to just carry the water.

45:07

[00 45:29.732 – 00:45:33.192] It's the water that blesses and heals, not the pipe.

45:10

[00 45:33.192 – 00:45:38.232] The pipe's job is to remain unclogged, and if it remains unclogged, then the water gets through.

45:16

[00 45:38.232 – 00:45:40.232] You are my pipe.

45:17

[00 45:40.232 – 00:45:48.472] You carry my message, and if you get clogged with self and fear and all this other..." I don't even get through this message.

45:25

[00 45:48.472 – 00:45:53.032] I'm trying to read this, and this guy goes like this, "Do you hear that?

45:30

[00 45:53.032 – 00:45:58.332] You're a freaking pipe." And it's n- and he was F bombing me all over the place.

45:36

[00 45:58.332 – 00:45:59.772] "You're a freaking pipe.

45:37

[00 45:59.772 – 00:46:00.272] That's all.

45:38

[00 46:00.272 – 00:46:06.332] Stop comparing yourself with another pipe." It lifted my depression.

45:41

[00 46:06.332 – 00:46:08.272] So that's a memorable experience.

45:43

[00 46:08.272 – 00:46:09.292] He's now gone.

45:45

[00 46:09.292 – 00:46:10.472] He's in, he's in heaven.

45:46

[00 46:10.472 – 00:46:11.452] That fellow.

45:47

[00 46:11.452 – 00:46:15.632] Well, I, um, I really wanna thank you.

45:50

[00 46:15.632 – 00:46:20.412] Uh, is there anything that I didn't ask you about that you'd like to share with the group?

45:56

[00 46:20.412 – 00:46:24.072] Anything that- No, because people want, people probably wanna ask some questions, and I can talk for hours.

46:02

[00 46:24.072 – 00:46:25.412] So I apologize.

46:03

[00 46:25.412 – 00:46:27.052] I apologize for that.

46:05

[00 46:27.052 – 00:46:31.132] I am married 59 years to the same woman, Kathleen.

46:08

[00 46:31.132 – 00:46:41.212] Uh, I have, I have two grown chi- ch- grandchildren, uh, two grown children that have never seen me drink, 54 and 53, 55 and 53,

46:15

[00 46:41.212 – 00:46:47.752] and I have four grandchildren that didn't know Papa had no weapons one time and was in a psych ward.

46:21

[00 46:47.752 – 00:46:49.932] They think I'm a silly papa.

46:23

[00 46:49.932 – 00:46:55.972] And my life has dra- dramatically been transformed, and I'm still very active in the 12 step way of life.

46:30

[00 46:55.972 – 00:46:57.012] That's it.

46:30

[00 46:57.012 – 00:46:57.732] Thanks.

46:31

[00 46:57.732 – 00:46:58.072] Okay.

46:32

[00 46:58.072 – 00:46:59.042] God bless you.

46:33

[00 46:59.042 – 00:47:05.012] So, um, I'm gonna ask Tim to take us off spotlight and put us back with, into the gallery.

46:39

[00 47:05.012 – 00:47:12.032] And, um, I'm going to ask if anybody in the group has a question for Jimmy.

46:44

[00 47:12.032 – 00:47:22.552] I know that, um, you have some friends here that know a little bit about your story, that, um, there are some people who know you that would like to ask some questions.

46:55

[00 47:22.552 – 00:47:33.012] So I'm going to, uh, um, ask, uh, people to raise their digital hands, and we will ask you to turn on your video

47:03

[00 47:33.012 – 00:47:36.452] before we call on you, um, to ask a question.

47:06

[00 47:36.452 – 00:47:39.372] That's just a safety feature that we do here in this meeting.

47:10

[00 47:39.372 – 00:47:43.592] Uh, Deb S, would you like to unmute and come in and ask Jimmy a question?

47:15

[00 47:43.592 – 00:47:46.602] I- And again, please- You can talk ...

47:18

[00 47:46.602 – 00:47:47.522] ask questions.

47:19

[00 47:47.522 – 00:47:50.792] This is not, this is not a time to, to share with him.

47:23

[00 47:50.792 – 00:47:55.132] You can, you can stay after the meeting and do that, but this is a time for questions please.

47:29

[00 47:55.132 – 00:47:55.712] Yes.

47:30

[00 47:55.712 – 00:47:57.792] Jimmy and I spoke earlier this evening.

47:32

[00 47:57.792 – 00:48:01.872] Jimmy, I wanna know what was your motivation?

47:35

[00 48:01.872 – 00:48:05.902] What kept you doing these back to basic big book studies?

47:39

[00 48:05.902 – 00:48:08.972] I went to one my first year that I moved to Long Island.

47:43

[00 48:08.972 – 00:48:12.032] I di- I didn't understand what was going on.

47:46

[00 48:12.032 – 00:48:13.492] I had to go back to it again.

47:49

[00 48:13.492 – 00:48:15.852] I think I did it two or three times.

47:52

[00 48:15.852 – 00:48:18.942] It was wonderful after I figured it out.

47:55

[00 48:18.942 – 00:48:21.082] What kept you doing these?

47:57

[00 48:21.082 – 00:48:23.212] 'Cause you were doing them all the time.

47:59

[00 48:23.212 – 00:48:24.612] There were flyers everywhere.

48:01

[00 48:24.612 – 00:48:26.608] No, I only did it twice a year.

48:04

[00 48:26.608 – 00:48:27.308] That's all we did.

48:05

[00 48:27.308 – 00:48:29.988] But, uh, once in the spring and once in the fall.

48:09

[00 48:29.988 – 00:48:39.988] And I think the motivation for it, w- w- well, it was multiple thing, but it was almost like, you know, when you get a room full of people, 50 or 60 people that are coming through

48:20

[00 48:39.988 – 00:48:43.048] this thing, um, and they're, and they're re- you can ...

48:23

[00 48:43.048 – 00:48:46.148] I mean, you really can tell when you're connecting with them.

48:27

[00 48:46.148 – 00:48:48.627] Like, I could feel the energy and the connection with them.

48:31

[00 48:48.627 – 00:48:51.208] And, uh, and they would show up week after week.

48:34

[00 48:51.208 – 00:48:56.118] So a- a- and, and, and just be part of this process.

48:38

[00 48:56.118 – 00:48:58.788] And then afterwards ask question, they would ask me questions.

48:42

[00 48:58.788 – 00:49:00.568] Some people want my phone number.

48:44

[00 49:00.568 – 00:49:06.228] Um, so that kind of, uh, I guess energy transfer was what really kept me coming back.

48:49

[00 49:06.228 – 00:49:11.168] And then, and the belief that this was in fact a ministry, as my spiritual director said to me.

48:55

[00 49:11.168 – 00:49:12.708] He goes, "This is a ministry.

48:58

[00 49:12.708 – 00:49:18.428] This is your ministry." So that's what, uh, I guess that's why I kept doing it, and we're gonna do it again in September.

49:05

[00 49:18.428 – 00:49:19.188] Thanks.

49:06

[00 49:19.188 – 00:49:21.808] Thanks, Jimmy.

49:07

[00 49:21.808 – 00:49:27.378] Um, Sarah, would you like to unmute and come in and ask your question?

49:11

[00 49:27.378 – 00:49:29.068] Good to see you.

49:13

[00 49:29.068 – 00:49:29.358] I would.

49:14

[00 49:29.358 – 00:49:29.828] Thank you.

49:15

[00 49:29.828 – 00:49:32.068] Good to see you, too.

49:17

[00 49:32.068 – 00:49:33.188] Hi, everyone.

49:18

[00 49:33.188 – 00:49:34.198] Sarah, alcoholic.

49:19

[00 49:34.198 – 00:49:43.268] Um, Jimmy, um, you had mentioned that when you take, when you take your guys through the steps, that you take them, you just take them through the steps.

49:28

[00 49:43.268 – 00:49:46.628] What happens after that, once you've taken them through the steps?

49:31

[00 49:46.628 – 00:49:53.748] Do you stay involved with them, or do you continue to sponsor them and, or do you go back through the steps again, or is there- No, no.

49:40

[00 49:53.748 – 00:49:55.038] This, well, this is how it works.

49:43

[00 49:55.038 – 00:50:05.108] Usually when, when we, especially when you've gone through four and five, or you've gone through the first time, but four and five in particular, they've gone through and shared with me their liabilities, their

49:54

[00 50:05.108 – 00:50:10.148] defects of character, which is a, in the chart that we use, there's a left-hand column.

49:59

[00 50:10.148 – 00:50:14.928] So it's, i- it would, it would be almost like what, what, um, what, what Bill W.

50:05

[00 50:14.928 – 00:50:18.528] talks about on page 64, the commercial kind of an inventory.

50:08

[00 50:18.528 – 00:50:23.808] So you go through your liabilities and then, and the assets, the, the pluses and minuses.

50:13

[00 50:23.808 – 00:50:33.808] So if, for example, someone calls me on the phone, which just happened recently, a fellow I took through the steps, calls me on the phone, and he starts to talk about an issue in his life,

50:25

[00 50:33.808 – 00:50:38.268] in this case with his, with his wife not trusting him for a certain reason.

50:30

[00 50:38.268 – 00:50:42.648] I'll say to him, uh, you know, he'll tell me, "I'm really, I'm really angry.

50:35

[00 50:42.648 – 00:50:45.008] I'm, I'm, I'm resentful," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

50:38

[00 50:45.008 – 00:50:47.708] And I'll say to him, "Let me ask you something.

50:42

[00 50:47.708 – 00:50:51.348] Um, wh- what-"

50:43

[00 50:51.957 – 00:51:01.997] When we went over the, the liabilities, uh, uh, you know, i- in, uh, i- in this work together, um, what were the tools that we went over that you u- we would use in

50:54

[00 51:01.997 – 00:51:03.957] order to get rid of resentments, for example?

50:57

[00 51:03.957 – 00:51:04.697] How did we do that?

50:59

[00 51:04.697 – 00:51:05.457] How'd you do that?

51:00

[00 51:05.457 – 00:51:08.236] And he'd say, "Well, I, I'm not sure." I'd say, "Okay.

51:04

[00 51:08.236 – 00:51:11.617] Well, why don't we open up to page 66," with the book together.

51:08

[00 51:11.617 – 00:51:21.777] So I would sit down with him with the book, either me personally or on, on Zoom, and go over the, the, the tools that would be used for re- for removing

51:18

[00 51:21.777 – 00:51:24.557] a resentment on page 66 and 67 of The Big Book.

51:21

[00 51:24.557 – 00:51:34.597] And then I would say to him, "You know, I, uh, c- the, the, the, the process is to ask them what particular defect of character you think is,

51:31

[00 51:34.597 – 00:51:38.877] is, uh, kicking up for you right now." So they would say, "Oh, let's see.

51:35

[00 51:38.877 – 00:51:43.077] I think it's fear," or, "It's, uh, it's self-centeredness.

51:39

[00 51:43.077 – 00:51:44.557] It's my ego." "Oh, good.

51:40

[00 51:44.557 – 00:51:44.997] Okay.

51:41

[00 51:44.997 – 00:51:48.517] Well, well, what did..." And we get over this in, we went over this in step 10.

51:46

[00 51:48.517 – 00:51:55.837] "What, what do you do when these things crop up?" Now, in step 10, it would, it would, we, we have tools, five tools.

51:54

[00 51:55.837 – 00:52:05.277] I'm aware of it, I'm aware of it, I give it to God, I tell somebody about it, I make amends if I've hurt somebody, and, uh, and I be of service to someone.

52:04

[00 52:05.277 – 00:52:06.077] I help someone.

52:06

[00 52:06.077 – 00:52:08.967] Those are the five tools in, on step, in step 10.

52:09

[00 52:08.967 – 00:52:14.417] So we would continue this process of reint- you know, reintroducing the solution.

52:13

[00 52:14.417 – 00:52:16.257] Living in the solution.

52:15

[00 52:16.257 – 00:52:18.177] So yeah, I would meet with them and do that.

52:18

[00 52:18.177 – 00:52:19.017] Yeah.

52:19

[00 52:19.017 – 00:52:19.167] Mm-hmm.

52:20

[00 52:19.167 – 00:52:20.377] But it's basically that.

52:21

[00 52:20.377 – 00:52:23.617] What, what defect of character do you think is kicking your butt this time?

52:26

[00 52:23.617 – 00:52:29.817] And let them tell me, and then we go to the tools that The Big Book taught us about.

52:32

[00 52:29.817 – 00:52:31.497] It's all about The Big Book, by the way.

52:35

[00 52:31.497 – 00:52:32.977] That's the only thing I use is The Big Book.

52:38

[00 52:32.977 – 00:52:42.307] Uh, Jeanie, Jeanie Janice, would you, uh, turn on your video and, uh, come in to ask a question?

52:45

[00 52:42.307 – 00:52:50.757] She might have to ask- Is it Jean?

52:47

[00 52:50.757 – 00:52:52.297] There you are.

52:49

[00 52:52.297 – 00:52:53.037] There you go.

52:50

[00 52:53.037 – 00:52:53.637] Okay.

52:50

[00 52:53.637 – 00:52:54.396] I'm having...

52:51

[00 52:54.396 – 00:52:58.717] I fight with this phone every time I try to do this.

52:55

[00 52:58.717 – 00:53:02.357] You're not alone with the phone.

52:57

[00 53:02.357 – 00:53:03.357] Yeah.

52:58

[00 53:03.357 – 00:53:13.877] Um, in the chapter Working with Others, it talks about when we 12 step that we shouldn't forget the family.

53:04

[00 53:13.877 – 00:53:24.097] When you 12 stepped in your early sobriety, is that something you and whoever you 12 stepped with would do, is, um, talk

53:11

[00 53:24.097 – 00:53:25.257] to the family members?

53:13

[00 53:25.257 – 00:53:26.017] Sure.

53:13

[00 53:26.017 – 00:53:26.977] Oh yeah, sure.

53:14

[00 53:26.977 – 00:53:29.337] Especially spouses e- early on.

53:16

[00 53:29.337 – 00:53:39.577] And then eventually, uh, uh, later on in my life, uh, in a, in a professional, in a professional, uh, capacity, I did, uh, family

53:24

[00 53:39.577 – 00:53:40.577] therapy with people.

53:26

[00 53:40.577 – 00:53:42.237] You know, with, with family members.

53:28

[00 53:42.237 – 00:53:46.057] And I, I, I started up my own practice when I finally...

53:32

[00 53:46.057 – 00:53:50.917] Well, the last thing I did in the world of work was I started an intervention practice.

53:37

[00 53:50.917 – 00:53:55.917] I was a, a professional, uh, family systems intervention, uh, professional.

53:41

[00 53:55.917 – 00:54:05.917] So I would work with the families and, and hopefully do everything I possibly could to try and motivate the family to get involved in Al-Anon or Families

53:50

[00 54:05.917 – 00:54:06.417] Anonymous.

53:51

[00 54:06.417 – 00:54:13.757] And it was, it's a very difficult thing to do because a lot of, you know, a lot of the spouses don't think it's their problem.

53:59

[00 54:13.757 – 00:54:15.597] So I would focus on that.

54:01

[00 54:15.597 – 00:54:19.617] So I was always combining my own recovery with my own professional work, you know?

54:06

[00 54:19.617 – 00:54:29.177] But early on, I would, you know, not being a professional early on in recovery, I would meet with wives and, and, uh, and spouses of guys.

54:15

[00 54:29.177 – 00:54:32.137] And, and many of them tod- to this day are friends.

54:18

[00 54:32.137 – 00:54:34.157] They're f- the wives are friends of mine.

54:21

[00 54:34.157 – 00:54:38.107] But we're older, and some of them are, are very infirm and sick and...

54:26

[00 54:38.107 – 00:54:45.817] Like one fellow that calls me, his sponsor, is sober 50 years, and his wife is now, uh, she's dying, you know?

54:32

[00 54:45.817 – 00:54:51.957] And I, and I, you know, he calls me like once or twice a week and we just chat and, uh, and we pray together, you know?

54:41

[00 54:51.957 – 00:54:52.677] For hi- for her.

54:43

[00 54:52.677 – 00:54:55.427] But his wife is a, a buddy of mine, you know?

54:46

[00 54:55.427 – 00:54:58.457] So anyway, I don't know if that answers your question, but...

54:50

[00 54:58.457 – 00:55:03.457] Gail, would you like to unmute and come in and ask, uh, Jimmy a question?

54:55

[00 55:03.457 – 00:55:06.657] Thank you, Penny.

54:56

[00 55:06.657 – 00:55:08.376] This was great, Jimmy.

54:58

[00 55:08.376 – 00:55:10.037] Thank you so much.

54:59

[00 55:10.037 – 00:55:10.747] Yeah.

55:00

[00 55:10.747 – 00:55:16.407] Um, it may be because you're East Coast and I'm West Coast- ...

55:04

[00 55:16.407 – 00:55:26.017] but I've got over four decades of sobriety, and I have never heard that excerpt before, which I thought was so powerful.

55:11

[00 55:26.017 – 00:55:32.457] And I'd love to know what it is, where you got it, because I think it's a great thing to have.

55:18

[00 55:32.457 – 00:55:34.297] Lot of wisdom in that.

55:20

[00 55:34.297 – 00:55:38.037] Well, we could certainly, I could certainly get one to, like Penny, I'll get a copy of it.

55:25

[00 55:38.037 – 00:55:39.917] I, I have it in my, in my computer.

55:29

[00 55:39.917 – 00:55:48.377] But, uh, we, I actually bought 100 of these little tri-folds, uh, just last week from our AA Intergroup office here on Long Island.

55:36

[00 55:48.377 – 00:55:49.516] Oh my gosh.

55:37

[00 55:49.516 – 00:55:53.377] So they charge 15 cents apiece for this little tri-fold.

55:40

[00 55:53.377 – 00:55:57.337] So, uh, that's how I got it, but I would be happy to send it to, uh...

55:46

[00 55:57.337 – 00:55:59.237] Oh, uh, Penny has put it in the chat there.

55:49

[00 55:59.237 – 00:56:02.907] Google "Why We Were Chosen." Ah, thank you so much.

55:53

[00 56:02.907 – 00:56:03.837] Why we were chosen.

55:54

[00 56:03.837 – 00:56:04.427] Yeah.

55:55

[00 56:04.427 – 00:56:05.167] I'll tell you what it is.

55:57

[00 56:05.167 – 00:56:13.617] It's actually part of a talk by a judge, if I didn't say this already, from, uh, 1943 or 4.

56:03

[00 56:13.617 – 00:56:19.326] It was the third anniversary of Chicago's, uh, AA group- Ah ...

56:07

[00 56:19.326 – 00:56:20.027] in the '40s.

56:08

[00 56:20.027 – 00:56:30.357] And it was a judge that gave this long, windy, much more windy than I am, gave this long, windy talk, and in the middle of it he read that, why we were chosen

56:19

[00 56:30.357 – 00:56:31.077] for our concept.

56:20

[00 56:31.077 – 00:56:33.497] So you can get it, you can Google it.

56:23

[00 56:33.497 – 00:56:34.357] Yeah.

56:24

[00 56:34.357 – 00:56:34.427] Thank you.

56:25

[00 56:34.427 – 00:56:34.697] Yeah.

56:25

[00 56:34.697 – 00:56:45.981] If, if you Google "why we were chosen" and add AA to the keywords, um-

56:30

[00 56:45.981 – 00:56:45.981] ...

56:31

[00 56:45.981 – 00:56:49.421] out there because of course alcoholics can't leave anything alone.

56:34

[00 56:49.421 – 00:56:53.281] We have to customize it a little bit for ourselves- ...

56:37

[00 56:53.281 – 00:56:56.031] and, or for who we're going to give it to so that they get- Yes ...

56:42

[00 56:56.031 – 00:56:56.881] the right message.

56:44

[00 56:56.881 – 00:57:04.221] So, uh, Jimmy, I wanna thank you so much for being willing to do this this evening.

56:49

[00 57:04.221 – 00:57:10.381] And, uh, to all of you who came along to, uh, to listen to our conversation this evening.

56:55

[00 57:10.381 – 00:57:19.281] Tim, uh, and, uh, and Mike, thank you again so much for the space to do this meeting once a month.

57:02

[00 57:19.281 – 00:57:29.301] I really, um, it's one of those things that I just, um, every, every single month I get nervous just before I sign on, and then right

57:10

[00 57:29.301 – 00:57:38.541] in the middle I start getting comfortable and, and by the end of it I'm just so glad that I have this commitment and that I've, um, that I carved this out for myself.

57:21

[00 57:38.541 – 00:57:39.831] So thank you so much.

57:23

[00 57:39.831 – 00:57:40.841] This is your ministry.

57:25

[00 57:40.841 – 00:57:42.601] This is your ministry.

57:26

[00 57:42.601 – 00:57:42.901] See?

57:27

[00 57:42.901 – 00:57:43.741] There you go.

57:28

[00 57:43.741 – 00:57:44.301] Thank you.

57:29

[00 57:44.301 – 00:57:44.841] Thank you.

57:30

[00 57:44.841 – 00:57:49.381] And next month, um, Tim has put a flyer in the chat.

57:34

[00 57:49.381 – 00:57:50.901] Uh, Nancy M.

57:35

[00 57:50.901 – 00:57:59.661] from Seal Beach, uh, May 23rd, 1971 sobriety date, is going to be, um, here having a conversation with us.

57:41

[00 57:59.661 – 00:58:06.321] And, uh, we hope that you'll, uh, download the flyer, share it with others if you've enjoyed the meeting.

57:47

[00 58:06.321 – 00:58:08.701] And if you haven't enjoyed the meeting, share it anyway.

57:51

[00 58:08.701 – 00:58:16.741] And, uh- And, uh, Tim, thank you so much for the opportunity to do this.

57:56

[00 58:16.741 – 00:58:21.301] And, uh, let's close, uh, this meeting with, um, the Serenity Prayer.

58:00

[00 58:21.301 – 00:58:31.041] If you all want to, um, if you all want to unmute and, uh, Jimmy, if you would take us out with the Serenity Prayer.

58:08

[00 58:31.041 – 00:58:32.301] Oh, I'd love to do that.

58:10

[00 58:32.301 – 00:58:43.501] Let's just take a moment of silence for those of us who are distressed and, and maybe sadness or fear or worry has visited upon us for a time.

58:19

[00 58:43.501 – 00:58:52.341] And let's just, uh, take that moment of silence realizing that we are in the hands of a power greater than ourself who loves us very, very, very much.

58:28

[00 58:52.341 – 00:58:54.121] Mm.

58:29

[00 58:54.121 – 00:59:00.121] And why don't we pray with this, lend with the, uh, we version of the Serenity Prayer.

58:35

[00 59:00.121 – 00:59:02.831] God- God- God- ...

58:36

[00 59:02.831 – 00:59:05.651] grant us the serenity- Grant us the serenity- ...

58:39

[00 59:05.651 – 00:59:08.931] to accept the things we cannot change- ...

58:41

[00 59:08.931 – 00:59:10.471] to accept the things we cannot change- ...

58:43

[00 59:10.471 – 00:59:12.061] courage to change the things we can- ...

58:46

[00 59:12.061 – 00:59:13.651] courage to change the things we can- ...

58:48

[00 59:13.651 – 00:59:14.481] and the wisdom to know the difference.

58:51

[00 59:14.481 – 00:59:14.491] ...

58:51

[00 59:14.491 – 00:59:16.701] and the wisdom to know the difference.

58:54

[00 59:16.701 – 00:59:17.151] Amen, not I.

58:55

[00 59:17.151 – 00:59:17.371] Amen.

58:55

[00 59:17.371 – 00:59:18.421] That was beautiful.

58:57

[00 59:18.421 – 00:59:20.211] Amen to that.

58:58

[00 59:20.211 – 00:59:20.331] Thank you so much.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

conversation with jimmy d presented by conversation with jimmy d – 2025-06-24

conversation with jimmy d presented by conversation with jimmy d – 2025-06-24

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