Concsious Contact presented by Jay S – 2025-03-11

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Unknown Tuesday Night History Workshop • 2025

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Unknown ABOUT THIS WORKSHOP

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Unknown Jay S speaking on "Concsious Contact" in Tuesday Night History Workshop (March 11, 2025). This recording is preserved in high-fidelity with interactive scrolling transcripts.

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Unknown Interactive Transcript

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[00 00:03.960 – 00:00:07.719] Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop.

0:21

[00 00:07.719 – 00:00:10.039] Thank you everyone for joining us tonight.

0:24

[00 00:10.039 – 00:00:15.380] My name is Tim, and tonight we have a great presentation led by Jay S.

0:32

[00 00:15.380 – 00:00:22.320] from Sedona, and Jay will be giving a presentation on conscious contact with Bill W.

0:39

[00 00:22.320 – 00:00:31.120] We meet every Tuesday night at the same time and at the same Zoom ID number, and next week we are going to have Mike F.

0:52

[00 00:31.120 – 00:00:35.060] presenting on the first edition big books.

0:55

[00 00:35.060 – 00:00:45.500] This meeting is being recorded, and the audio from tonight's presentation, as well as all of our past presentations, can be found at recoveryspeakers.com.

1:07

[00 00:45.500 – 00:00:55.539] This meeting is not affiliated with any 12-step organization, although our goal is to focus on the history of AA and other 12-step

1:18

[00 00:55.539 – 00:00:56.179] fellowships.

1:19

[00 00:56.179 – 00:01:06.200] Recoveryspeakers.com is dedicated to preserving and making the audio history of AA and the 12-step movement available

1:28

[00 01:06.200 – 00:01:08.120] for everyone today and in the future.

1:32

[00 01:08.120 – 00:01:18.459] We share a daily email that features a different speaker talk from the Recovery Speakers audio library, and included in the daily emails

1:43

[00 01:18.459 – 00:01:26.500] are flyers for upcoming, uh, presentations for this meeting, as well as links to the recordings of this meeting.

1:52

[00 01:26.500 – 00:01:36.579] So if you wanna receive our daily email, you can, uh, subscribe through the link I will be sharing in the chat in a moment, or you can send me an email at

2:08

[00 01:36.579 – 00:01:41.599] info@recoveryspeakers.com and I will get you added to our email list.

2:14

[00 01:41.599 – 00:01:48.400] And Recovery Speakers is an official 501[c][3] public charity.

2:19

[00 01:48.400 – 00:01:52.799] If you are able to, we accept contributions which allow us to continue our work.

2:26

[00 01:52.799 – 00:01:59.760] And, um, I have shared, uh, the different ways to make contributions in the chat.

2:34

[00 01:59.760 – 00:02:05.140] And tonight, we should have some time at the end for questions for Jay.

2:41

[00 02:05.140 – 00:02:12.080] So if you have any questions throughout Jay's presentation, please write them down and be prepared to ask them at the end of the meeting.

2:53

[00 02:12.080 – 00:02:18.599] And I am going to go ahead and close the chat right now, and I will open that back up at the end of the meeting.

3:05

[00 02:18.599 – 00:02:28.740] And now, thank you, Jay, for, uh, showing up and sharing again with us, and looking forward to the movie and, and everything

3:16

[00 02:28.740 – 00:02:29.300] around it.

3:18

[00 02:29.300 – 00:02:32.280] And you can go ahead and unmute and take it away.

3:23

[00 02:32.280 – 00:02:35.259] Well, good evening, friends.

3:26

[00 02:35.259 – 00:02:44.259] Um, this is one of the most difficult days of the year, the day when clocks change many places.

3:35

[00 02:44.259 – 00:02:51.159] It's also a really good day for the coffee business because the bars got to stay open an extra hour.

3:44

[00 02:51.159 – 00:02:53.719] We used to look forward to...

3:48

[00 02:53.719 – 00:02:53.939] Yeah.

3:49

[00 02:53.939 – 00:02:59.180] Anyway, um, just to let you know that I qualify to be here with you today.

3:56

[00 02:59.180 – 00:03:09.199] Uh, and, uh, today I've got the pleasure to talk to you about some specific practices that

4:05

[00 03:09.199 – 00:03:14.500] Bill Wilson had, my insights or opinions around some of those.

4:10

[00 03:14.500 – 00:03:24.759] And, um, we aren't gonna get through all 10 of them, but, um, I am going to enjoy

4:19

[00 03:24.759 – 00:03:30.979] speaking about, number one, he and Lois's relationship with nature.

4:24

[00 03:30.979 – 00:03:41.030] Number two, um, his, uh, meditative experience with

4:28

[00 03:41.030 – 00:03:42.280] the Oxford Group.

4:30

[00 03:42.280 – 00:03:52.280] Uh, number three, the, uh, his, uh, practices in

4:34

[00 03:52.280 – 00:03:53.049] depression.

4:35

[00 03:53.049 – 00:03:59.939] Four, his, uh, uh...

4:38

[00 03:59.939 – 00:04:01.169] And I won't do this in order.

4:41

[00 04:01.169 – 00:04:11.299] Uh, four, his, um, uh, contemplative relationship with, uh, the Saint Francis

4:47

[00 04:11.300 – 00:04:11.629] prayer.

4:48

[00 04:11.629 – 00:04:16.240] Five, his, uh, relationship with Catholicism.

4:51

[00 04:16.240 – 00:04:22.459] Um, six, uh, what else do we got here?

4:56

[00 04:22.459 – 00:04:23.658] A couple other things.

4:58

[00 04:23.658 – 00:04:30.730] Um, his, um, uh, relationship with psychedelics.

5:02

[00 04:30.730 – 00:04:37.579] Uh, seven, his relationship with spiritualism.

5:05

[00 04:37.579 – 00:04:43.319] Eight, his relationship with, um, niacin.

5:09

[00 04:43.319 – 00:04:48.730] And nine, his, uh, transcendental meditation experiences.

5:12

[00 04:48.730 – 00:04:55.459] Um, so they won't, those won't be in order particularly, but I just, uh, I, I wanna...

5:21

[00 04:55.459 – 00:05:05.519] We've got a book that's gonna come along with the movie that will be identifying a few of these practi- these practices

5:31

[00 05:05.519 – 00:05:12.519] and, um, documenting what it was that he was doing, people that he was involved with, like at the time.

5:41

[00 05:12.519 – 00:05:22.699] Um, my art director has instructed me to write a book now that is for people that don't read.

5:50

[00 05:22.699 – 00:05:30.680] And I thought, "Oh, it's like the days when PowerPoint came out." But anyway, for this particular group.

5:59

[00 05:30.680 – 00:05:40.740] But so I wanted to start out with just a little background stuff that I think is, is fun about Bill Wilson as a, a, a spiritual teacher.

6:12

[00 05:40.740 – 00:05:45.399] Number one, his life was set up to be an absolute train wreck.

6:19

[00 05:45.399 – 00:05:56.220] He's in this small Vermont town where the, uh,

6:23

[00 05:56.220 – 00:06:06.199] local currency is gossip, probably, probably about as strong as in Alcoholics Anonymous.

6:30

[00 06:06.199 – 00:06:13.040] And he's got this grandfather that doesn't go to church.

6:35

[00 06:13.040 – 00:06:23.100] And then his family blows up 'cause of his dad's drinking, and a very short

6:42

[00 06:23.100 – 00:06:33.100] while after that, his mother takes h- his sister and moves to Boston, basically abandoning him to

6:51

[00 06:33.100 – 00:06:34.199] live with his grandfather.

6:53

[00 06:34.199 – 00:06:44.430] Wilson takes this, you know, this information,

6:57

[00 06:44.430 – 00:06:45.600] and what does he do with it?

7:00

[00 06:48.825 – 00:06:58.905] He applies himself almost maniacally, single-mindedly to different projects

7:05

[00 06:58.905 – 00:07:08.525] and different things, believing that if he can somehow prove to the world that he's a success, that he will feel okay about himself.

7:16

[00 07:08.525 – 00:07:11.145] And so what happens?

7:19

[00 07:11.145 – 00:07:12.025] Uh, you know, he's...

7:21

[00 07:12.025 – 00:07:20.965] So he's using something exogenous, something outside of himself, to give himself some validity.

7:28

[00 07:20.965 – 00:07:31.145] Wilson becomes the first chair on the school orchestra,

7:33

[00 07:31.145 – 00:07:32.105] violin.

7:34

[00 07:32.105 – 00:07:36.265] He becomes a pitcher in the, on the baseball team.

7:39

[00 07:36.265 – 00:07:38.365] Class president.

7:40

[00 07:38.365 – 00:07:46.245] Um, all these things that he does without any real guidance, basically being self-taught.

7:47

[00 07:46.245 – 00:07:54.245] And, and what happens, he has every success a guy could possibly have to get this kind of outside validation.

7:57

[00 07:54.245 – 00:07:56.865] And then he gets the girl.

8:00

[00 07:56.865 – 00:08:07.925] It's on as far as relying on things outside of himself to give him

8:07

[00 08:07.925 – 00:08:08.705] that feeling.

8:08

[00 08:08.705 – 00:08:18.725] The girl dies suddenly, and he goes into a depression

8:13

[00 08:18.725 – 00:08:28.645] that he described as being totally disproportionate to the events that happened.

8:19

[00 08:28.645 – 00:08:34.945] But he literally is completely devastated.

8:23

[00 08:34.945 – 00:08:42.225] Don't take this as the truth, this little piece here.

8:28

[00 08:42.225 – 00:08:52.625] But if you take a look at Bill Wilson physically, he has all the, uh, physical attributes

8:36

[00 08:52.625 – 00:08:59.005] of somebody that has Marfan's disease, which is something that, uh, most supermodels have.

8:43

[00 08:59.005 – 00:09:05.765] They, i- incredibly elongated arms, double-jointed, very, uh, wide hands.

8:48

[00 09:05.765 – 00:09:15.825] Like, and one of the, one of the, um, one of the attributes of Marfan's is, is, uh, acute depression because of the

8:59

[00 09:15.825 – 00:09:18.705] pain of the body not working properly.

9:03

[00 09:18.705 – 00:09:24.845] So I think that that also had a little something to do with, with our friend's depression.

9:11

[00 09:24.845 – 00:09:28.205] Anyway, he gets to the point that he basically gives up.

9:17

[00 09:28.205 – 00:09:35.505] Nobody can r- nobody can roust him, nothing can, uh, nothing can get him out.

9:24

[00 09:35.505 – 00:09:45.065] And then a friend of his sister decides, "I can take care of this guy.

9:31

[00 09:45.065 – 00:09:56.465] I can bring him out of this." Um, and, uh, and so Lois finds her project, one

9:40

[00 09:56.465 – 00:10:00.145] that she enjoyed for the rest of their lives together.

9:45

[00 10:00.145 – 00:10:05.745] Now, where is it that the two of them...

9:49

[00 10:05.745 – 00:10:16.505] Their friendship was formed along with her brother and, and some other kids in the neighborhood, but their relationship was formed in

10:00

[00 10:16.505 – 00:10:25.325] nature, in the countryside of Vermont, in this incredibly beautiful area that they were, that, that, uh, that, that Bill, Bill lived in.

10:11

[00 10:25.325 – 00:10:29.985] And this was the place that their relationship was nurtured.

10:16

[00 10:29.985 – 00:10:40.365] This is a place that Lois turned many times during Bill's active alcoholism to try and, uh,

10:24

[00 10:40.365 – 00:10:41.765] try and get him straightened out.

10:28

[00 10:41.765 – 00:10:43.225] She'd take him to the country.

10:31

[00 10:43.225 – 00:10:49.465] Um, and this is a place where they returned to solace for the rest of their lives.

10:39

[00 10:49.465 – 00:10:59.665] They, later on when they were basically prisoners of their home, because any place they went, Bill

10:48

[00 10:59.665 – 00:11:00.865] was recognized.

10:49

[00 11:00.865 – 00:11:05.685] And, uh, my favorite little story is they went all the way to Nova Scotia.

10:56

[00 11:05.685 – 00:11:15.845] They found a little town and there's a, there's a place that's got a, got a, got some cabins, and, and they, they pull up

11:08

[00 11:15.845 – 00:11:17.765] and they're unloading.

11:10

[00 11:17.765 – 00:11:27.825] And the cook is sober, sees the license plates, sees Wilson, and the, the next day the AA community

11:19

[00 11:27.825 – 00:11:28.905] locally shows up.

11:21

[00 11:28.905 – 00:11:35.185] So he couldn't go anywhere, just about, and not be recognized.

11:27

[00 11:35.185 – 00:11:45.234] And, uh, so, I mean, they even got a home, like six miles

11:33

[00 11:45.234 – 00:11:48.465] away from where they lived so they c- had a place to go and hide.

11:41

[00 11:48.465 – 00:11:53.605] It was a beautilittle, beautiful little, uh, spot on the, on the lake down there.

11:48

[00 11:53.605 – 00:11:57.885] And, and so this was a place that they went for solace.

11:54

[00 11:57.885 – 00:12:08.125] And I would submit to you that Lois' spiritual expression and fulfillment, uh, came from nature.

12:02

[00 12:08.125 – 00:12:18.505] And, um, one of the great things that we have is all the stuff at, that's at Stepping Stones, the foundation has kept rolling

12:14

[00 12:18.505 – 00:12:25.965] about, um, about, uh, her relationship with the garden and all that great stuff.

12:20

[00 12:25.965 – 00:12:27.515] And so it's, it...

12:23

[00 12:27.515 – 00:12:37.615] So I would submit to you that their first meeting place, the place that, that their, their being-ness was, was, was, was nurtured

12:34

[00 12:37.615 – 00:12:39.065] was, was in nature.

12:36

[00 12:39.065 – 00:12:45.225] Um, so you know, Wilson drinks away his rationalism.

12:41

[00 12:45.225 – 00:12:48.945] I drank away my soul, and Wilson drank away his rationalism.

12:46

[00 12:48.945 – 00:12:56.105] And, um, he, uh, reaches the point that they were trying all kinds of stuff, you know.

12:55

[00 12:56.105 – 00:13:00.865] They, they'd stop in at, uh, you know, uh, the Christian Science.

13:01

[00 13:00.865 – 00:13:03.145] They, they, a, a number of different things.

13:05

[00 13:03.145 – 00:13:09.125] But there was nothing that, that abated his compulsive drinking.

13:10

[00 13:09.125 – 00:13:19.045] And then of course, we're all familiar with what happens, you know, as, as, as things go on.

13:19

[00 13:19.045 – 00:13:24.945] Again, he has every material success a person can have.

13:24

[00 13:24.945 – 00:13:27.305] Exactly what happened in high school.

13:27

[00 13:27.305 – 00:13:28.045] He's got...

13:28

[00 13:28.045 – 00:13:37.475] I mean, they had so much money that they were able to buy a second apartment in New York and not-

13:38

[00 13:37.597 – 00:13:42.997] Down the wall between the apartments so they had room for the piano.

13:45

[00 13:42.997 – 00:13:47.577] I mean, they, they, they had it going on.

13:50

[00 13:47.577 – 00:13:53.977] And, and so he has all of that, and bang, that, that goes in the crash.

13:57

[00 13:53.977 – 00:14:00.557] And by then the drinking has got him around the neck in a way that he cannot even justify to himself.

14:08

[00 14:00.557 – 00:14:09.437] And, uh, as we know, uh, his friend comes by to see him.

14:14

[00 14:09.437 – 00:14:11.457] He ends up back in the hospital.

14:18

[00 14:11.457 – 00:14:12.037] I like to...

14:20

[00 14:12.037 – 00:14:14.097] I, I love this phrase.

14:22

[00 14:14.097 – 00:14:24.146] Wilson talks about after Ebby came by and told him that he had religion, that he literally spent the

14:32

[00 14:24.146 – 00:14:27.937] next week punishing the bottle.

14:34

[00 14:27.937 – 00:14:33.597] Anybody ever done that?

14:37

[00 14:33.597 – 00:14:37.517] I mean, let's get, let's get it done.

14:41

[00 14:37.517 – 00:14:38.277] Let's get after it.

14:43

[00 14:38.277 – 00:14:39.817] Let's do it now.

14:45

[00 14:39.817 – 00:14:46.457] And, uh, and so he ends up back in, he ends up back in Townes.

14:53

[00 14:46.457 – 00:14:56.897] And the thing that, that has always impressed me is that when he's in Townes that last time, when

15:02

[00 14:56.897 – 00:15:07.077] he realizes that he's got no place else to go, when he's cornered like a dog, that he says, "If

15:12

[00 15:07.077 – 00:15:15.577] there be a God, will he show himself to me?" And then the experience happens.

15:19

[00 15:15.577 – 00:15:20.697] Now, what if he would've said, "Jesus, help me"?

15:24

[00 15:20.697 – 00:15:26.477] Would we be here together tonight?

15:27

[00 15:26.477 – 00:15:34.817] Um, so anyway, he makes this profession.

15:31

[00 15:34.817 – 00:15:36.217] Bang, he has this experience.

15:34

[00 15:36.217 – 00:15:46.257] He has what in classical, uh, spiritual literature is called the unitive experience, and he has

15:41

[00 15:46.257 – 00:15:58.137] this sense of his body, his mind, and his spirit all being in the same place at the same time, completely known, completely

15:52

[00 15:58.137 – 00:16:00.417] understood, and completely loved.

15:55

[00 16:00.417 – 00:16:10.777] When describing God as he understood God to people in letters, never in literature,

16:02

[00 16:10.777 – 00:16:24.837] he would say that, um, that, "I know beyond a shadow that God is my father." Nowadays,

16:10

[00 16:24.837 – 00:16:32.846] many people would say it's the created having an, an under- having an experience of the creator.

16:18

[00 16:32.846 – 00:16:43.117] He also says that he knew that he was loved no matter

16:24

[00 16:43.117 – 00:16:50.557] how bad he was, no matter what his condition.

16:29

[00 16:50.557 – 00:17:00.757] And he also knew beyond a shadow of a doubt for himself that everyone

16:36

[00 17:00.757 – 00:17:05.997] else had that same point of origin.

16:40

[00 17:05.997 – 00:17:16.117] And a great thing that he would do many times is he would qualify it as saying, "These, this is my

16:50

[00 17:16.117 – 00:17:26.397] current understanding, which may change as I gain more experience or

16:55

[00 17:26.397 – 00:17:36.417] understanding." And, uh, for those of you that I don't have the privilege of knowing, um, you know,

17:04

[00 17:36.417 – 00:17:46.817] I, I went down this rabbit hole of history because I wanted to find out what the guys were doing

17:14

[00 17:46.817 – 00:17:54.737] so that I could do it that way and do it better, and, uh, and I was looking for direction.

17:23

[00 17:54.737 – 00:18:04.747] And I can tell you that in the, it's probably up to 5,000 of Bill's letters that I've been privileged

17:33

[00 18:04.747 – 00:18:09.297] to read now, that he never once tells people what to do.

17:39

[00 18:09.297 – 00:18:16.317] If you want a format of the way that Bill Wilson expressed himself to people, what he would do is, uh...

17:49

[00 18:16.317 – 00:18:23.457] 'cause most of the letters he got was, were from people that were, that were in, uh, in some form of pain.

17:59

[00 18:23.457 – 00:18:33.777] And he would say, uh, what he would do is he would identify with the experience that they shared with him,

18:10

[00 18:33.777 – 00:18:34.257] first thing.

18:11

[00 18:34.257 – 00:18:43.817] The second thing that he would do is, is that he would validate how they were feeling about what they were going through.

18:22

[00 18:43.817 – 00:18:54.657] Then he would tell a self-deprecating, uh, anecdote about what it was that, um,

18:29

[00 18:54.657 – 00:19:02.677] that, uh, that he had experienced that was similar, and then he would encourage them to keep on the path.

18:39

[00 19:02.677 – 00:19:06.937] But never once does he say, "Look at chapter five.

18:44

[00 19:06.937 – 00:19:11.357] Look at the bottom of the third page.

18:48

[00 19:11.357 – 00:19:13.217] That's where your problem is.

18:51

[00 19:13.217 – 00:19:17.327] Just do something with that." Never.

18:54

[00 19:17.327 – 00:19:22.977] Never is he prescriptive, except in continuing along the path.

18:59

[00 19:22.977 – 00:19:33.337] So he has this experience, and then he spends the rest of his life trying

19:06

[00 19:33.337 – 00:19:36.697] to articulate it in a way that might be helpful to others.

19:12

[00 19:36.697 – 00:19:46.357] In that experience, he had this vision of one alcoholic t- helping another out as he had been helped.

19:22

[00 19:46.357 – 00:19:56.397] And with that, what ended up happening is, is that he had the key for

19:29

[00 19:56.397 – 00:19:57.137] his life.

19:30

[00 19:57.137 – 00:20:06.757] He gets out, he gets involved with the Oxford Group.

19:36

[00 20:06.757 – 00:20:15.037] Now, the Oxford Group had this wonderful methodology that, that got his friend Ebby sober.

19:43

[00 20:15.037 – 00:20:18.997] Got him, not sober.

19:45

[00 20:18.997 – 00:20:19.697] Got him...

19:47

[00 20:19.697 – 00:20:21.097] What did, what, what was it he said?

19:51

[00 20:21.097 – 00:20:26.197] That he was released from the problem.

19:55

[00 20:28.335 – 00:20:29.855] That he wasn't fighting it.

19:57

[00 20:29.855 – 00:20:36.955] And Wilson had been released from his problem in, in, in Towns Hospital.

20:04

[00 20:36.955 – 00:20:40.955] So anyway, he gets involved with the Oxford Group.

20:08

[00 20:40.955 – 00:20:47.155] A- and, you know, they had a, they had a four-step process.

20:14

[00 20:47.155 – 00:20:57.415] And, um, and if you want to know where the documentation for that is, it's in a book called, uh, What is the Oxford

20:26

[00 20:57.415 – 00:20:57.875] Group?

20:27

[00 20:57.875 – 00:21:01.475] And it talks about four spiritual activities.

20:31

[00 21:01.475 – 00:21:02.875] I call them steps.

20:33

[00 21:02.875 – 00:21:08.975] And for some reason, I don't see them there, so I'm gonna grab the book.

20:40

[00 21:08.975 – 00:21:22.955] And

20:41

[00 21:22.955 – 00:21:24.215] What is the Oxford Group?

20:44

[00 21:24.215 – 00:21:26.095] was written in 1933.

20:46

[00 21:26.095 – 00:21:29.955] Um, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba.

20:49

[00 21:29.955 – 00:21:40.095] So the first activity is the sharing of our sins, temptations with another Christian life, given to God and to use sharing as witness to help others still

21:03

[00 21:40.095 – 00:21:43.535] unchanged to recognize and acknowledge their sins.

21:07

[00 21:43.535 – 00:21:46.735] So basically, they're doing steps four and five up front.

21:12

[00 21:46.735 – 00:21:54.595] Number two, surrender of our life, past, present, and future into God's keeping and direction.

21:19

[00 21:54.595 – 00:22:04.974] So once I identify that I got the problem in four and five, figure I need some help, then we do what we'd call step, uh, uh,

21:32

[00 22:04.975 – 00:22:05.695] step three.

21:33

[00 22:05.695 – 00:22:12.575] Their third step was restitution to all we have wronged directly or indirectly.

21:40

[00 22:12.575 – 00:22:21.155] And four is listening to, accepting, and relying on God's guidance, and carrying it out in everything we do or say, great or small.

21:51

[00 22:21.155 – 00:22:31.695] Wilson's all in in going around, doing the activities,

21:56

[00 22:31.695 – 00:22:32.535] being with people.

21:58

[00 22:32.535 – 00:22:42.654] But in this guidance part, one of the, one of the things is, is, uh, a technique that, uh, is called Two-Way

22:08

[00 22:42.655 – 00:22:45.215] Prayer or How to Listen.

22:11

[00 22:45.215 – 00:22:49.615] I prefer the s- the second, because it doesn't divide us.

22:17

[00 22:49.615 – 00:22:56.175] Um, but listening for the inner guidance, and one of the parts of that is checking.

22:25

[00 22:56.175 – 00:23:04.835] And what you do is, is you check your guidance as to whether or not, um, it's God's will.

22:34

[00 23:04.835 – 00:23:12.055] So way of, you know, touching base with your sponsor and, and finding out what's, you know, what, you know...

22:44

[00 23:12.055 – 00:23:22.075] Well, in my, in my morning meditation and my writing my, my, um, my, my thoughts out, um, it came to me that I'm supposed to

22:56

[00 23:22.075 – 00:23:32.235] introduce myself to the young lady from the girls' treatment center, and then take her and move to Vegas to become a gambler, a professional gambler.

23:09

[00 23:32.235 – 00:23:34.815] Probably a good thing to run by someone.

23:13

[00 23:34.815 – 00:23:42.295] But what was happening with Wilson's guidance is, is his guidance kept being about helping drunks.

23:21

[00 23:42.295 – 00:23:52.315] And the people that he was involved with in the Oxford Group wanted him to go and make Christians out of stockbrokers, and

23:32

[00 23:52.315 – 00:23:56.375] that's not, that was not true to Bill's keel.

23:36

[00 23:56.375 – 00:24:01.115] And so there was a, there was a real disconnect in that.

23:42

[00 24:01.115 – 00:24:11.095] And he and Lois went to, to three OG meetings a, a, a, a week for about three and a half years.

23:53

[00 24:11.095 – 00:24:13.055] I mean, he was engaged.

23:56

[00 24:13.055 – 00:24:15.335] He was, you know, and, and, uh...

23:59

[00 24:15.335 – 00:24:25.675] But one of the fun things that we've got now from the Stepping Stones Foundation is a wonderful letter that Lois wrote

24:10

[00 24:25.675 – 00:24:35.775] to a guy that I knew in Los Angeles back in the day, guy by the name of Sean M., who was, uh, who wrote a

24:22

[00 24:35.775 – 00:24:42.495] wonderful old newsletter for the West Los Angeles, uh, uh, Inner Group.

24:28

[00 24:42.495 – 00:24:51.895] And he had the temerity to send Lois a note and say, "What did Bill..." He was doing step 11 for the group.

24:39

[00 24:51.895 – 00:24:57.675] "What did, what did you and Bill actually do?" And, and her...

24:45

[00 24:57.675 – 00:25:08.245] So, so there's, there's the concept of, you know, the Two-Way Prayer and the How to Listen and all that, and, uh,

24:56

[00 25:08.245 – 00:25:17.435] uh, and we could say that this was the methodology that Bill followed, but now we know that it's maybe a little different than that.

25:08

[00 25:17.435 – 00:25:20.575] But still within the same theme.

25:11

[00 25:20.575 – 00:25:30.975] Lois says that meditation as Bill defined it was trying

25:16

[00 25:30.975 – 00:25:33.355] to discern the will of God.

25:19

[00 25:33.355 – 00:25:37.555] And how did they do that?

25:22

[00 25:37.555 – 00:25:48.535] Like any great Al-Anon, she brought coffee to bed, and

25:28

[00 25:48.535 – 00:25:59.375] in the morning they would snuggle up and have a drink of coffee, and they would spend three or four minutes in silence asking directly

25:40

[00 25:59.375 – 00:26:03.415] what God's will would be for that day.

25:44

[00 26:03.415 – 00:26:13.485] She said, "Yeah, we were quiet three or four minutes." And then they would talk about the day's activities and how, you know, what, what had come to them and how they might

25:59

[00 26:13.485 – 00:26:14.435] be able to apply it.

26:02

[00 26:14.435 – 00:26:24.805] Later on in that, in that same letter, 'cause it's, it's a thing about the 11 steps, she says, uh, they,

26:12

[00 26:24.805 – 00:26:34.815] they say, uh, she says regarding prayer, she says, "I know what I want, which is what drives me to prayer."

26:22

[00 26:34.815 – 00:26:44.975] I, I mean, to me, this is the best information I've ever

26:28

[00 26:44.975 – 00:26:54.555] seen about the fact that there is a worldwide fellowship founded upon this woman's defects of char- effects of character, if you will.

26:39

[00 26:54.555 – 00:26:55.795] You know, I...

26:41

[00 26:55.795 – 00:27:06.295] She says, uh, but sh- she says afterwards, she says, "But f- fortunately, the wise ones have taught us that, that

26:51

[00 27:06.295 – 00:27:14.995] prayer is not about me getting what I want." And, uh, so anyway, that, that's a, that's a, that's a real-

27:01

[00 27:15.127 – 00:27:20.927] So this is a practice that we know, we know that they actually did.

27:08

[00 27:20.927 – 00:27:22.687] This is the way they went about it, you know?

27:13

[00 27:22.687 – 00:27:32.727] And if I tell anybody that was talking to me about wanting to have a better life with their

27:23

[00 27:32.727 – 00:27:39.827] partner, to go make them coffee in the morning and come and sit together for three or four minutes in silence.

27:33

[00 27:39.827 – 00:27:49.727] Ask specifically for the dir- God's direction for you, and then share it with each other and what else you got cooking for the day.

27:45

[00 27:49.727 – 00:27:59.747] And she also says in that letter that they would end with doing, doing prayers together, and they, they had a couple of different prayers

27:57

[00 27:59.747 – 00:28:00.187] that they did.

27:59

[00 28:00.187 – 00:28:04.167] But, but anyway, it's, it's, it's a marvelous thing to...

28:04

[00 28:04.167 – 00:28:06.887] If, if anybody wants to, to...

28:07

[00 28:06.887 – 00:28:13.847] And, and this was, this was something that she wrote in like 1975.

28:13

[00 28:13.847 – 00:28:19.707] So it was something that, that, um, was through their life.

28:18

[00 28:19.707 – 00:28:28.927] It wasn't a, it wasn't a memory of what, what they were, what they were doing back in the, uh, back in the, uh, in the OG.

28:31

[00 28:28.927 – 00:28:39.867] Um, so Wilson's a pi- Wilson's

28:35

[00 28:39.867 – 00:28:40.827] a, a pioneer.

28:36

[00 28:40.827 – 00:28:44.007] And, uh, and he's...

28:39

[00 28:44.007 – 00:28:48.907] One of the things that, that, that's, I think, really important when we...

28:45

[00 28:48.907 – 00:28:59.247] Or at least for me, as a historian, it's very, very difficult not to lay current understandings

28:54

[00 28:59.247 – 00:29:01.467] upon people that didn't have the knowledge.

28:57

[00 29:01.467 – 00:29:06.747] And, um, and it's, it's...

29:00

[00 29:06.747 – 00:29:12.987] So it's always lovely to be able to get this first-person information.

29:06

[00 29:12.987 – 00:29:23.287] And, you know, I, I would be remiss if I didn't tell you, go to steppingstones.org

29:14

[00 29:23.287 – 00:29:33.287] and go to the right and click on learn, and bang, you get access to Bill and Lois

29:23

[00 29:33.287 – 00:29:40.587] in ways that Ernie Kurtz never had, that William White, that, that none of us, uh, you know.

29:32

[00 29:40.587 – 00:29:45.647] Uh, so please do that so that you can get the information yourselves.

29:38

[00 29:45.647 – 00:29:51.247] So I wanna talk a little bit about spiritual healing.

29:43

[00 29:51.247 – 00:30:01.467] Because the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is an incredible demonstration of what spiritual

29:50

[00 30:01.467 – 00:30:02.547] healing is.

29:51

[00 30:02.547 – 00:30:03.907] What, what happened?

29:53

[00 30:03.907 – 00:30:14.127] Wilson has this unitive experience, and what he's shown in the Oxford Group, what he's taught in the Oxford Group, but what he's

30:04

[00 30:14.127 – 00:30:17.607] shown in the Oxford Group, is faith without works is dead.

30:10

[00 30:17.607 – 00:30:22.047] Don't tell me about what you believe.

30:13

[00 30:22.047 – 00:30:27.067] Show me by your works what's going on.

30:18

[00 30:27.067 – 00:30:37.607] And, um, and so he gets involved with that, and, and Alcoholics Anonymous starts to gain some traction, and,

30:27

[00 30:37.607 – 00:30:43.846] and there are all kinds of people that are being healed from this incredible malady.

30:34

[00 30:43.846 – 00:30:54.507] I think that, you know, I mean, this, this group here this evening, when you take a look at us, um, for the most part, um, our

30:47

[00 30:54.507 – 00:31:00.787] grandparents lived in a world where alcoholism and drug addiction was a death sentence.

30:54

[00 31:00.787 – 00:31:04.127] A death sentence.

30:56

[00 31:04.127 – 00:31:14.287] And yet something's happened, and there's this methodology that's been developed that at least a, a couple million currently are able to walk

31:07

[00 31:14.287 – 00:31:19.747] through and, and, and be liberated in all kinds of problems.

31:13

[00 31:19.747 – 00:31:22.787] So there's spiritual healing.

31:15

[00 31:22.787 – 00:31:28.357] In 1953, there was a group of people that got together.

31:20

[00 31:28.357 – 00:31:38.467] Eugene Axmann, who was the, uh, the head of, uh, publishing at, uh, uh, Harper Brothers.

31:28

[00 31:38.467 – 00:31:48.807] If you, uh, haven't got this book yet, God the Bestseller by Stephen Prothero, it's a wonderful, wonderful

31:37

[00 31:48.807 – 00:31:58.827] book about Eugene Axmann and the impact that this one man had about, uh, uh, uh, on the religious

31:46

[00 31:58.827 – 00:32:00.067] life of the United States.

31:49

[00 32:00.067 – 00:32:10.487] So anyway, Axmann and, and a couple of his colleagues get together, and there's this beautiful h-

31:57

[00 32:10.487 – 00:32:20.567] place in New York, this hall that's been dedicated, uh, for spiritual investigation, religious

32:04

[00 32:20.567 – 00:32:23.407] investigation, social investigation.

32:06

[00 32:23.407 – 00:32:34.027] And there is a conference that's called, um, to invite the great intellectuals in the Northeast

32:14

[00 32:34.027 – 00:32:41.477] in that time to get together and try and figure out what spiritual healing actually is.

32:21

[00 32:41.477 – 00:32:45.747] And so there are philosophers like Gerald Heard.

32:26

[00 32:45.747 – 00:32:50.247] There are doctors like Robert Laidlaw.

32:29

[00 32:50.247 – 00:32:55.627] There are parapsychologists like, uh, Eileen Garrett.

32:33

[00 32:55.627 – 00:33:00.307] There are people like Carlton Sherwood from the, from Duke University.

32:38

[00 33:00.307 – 00:33:04.767] There are theologians like, uh, Leslie Weatherhead.

32:42

[00 33:04.767 – 00:33:14.987] There are, there's a group of about 60 of them, and get together, and what they want to do, what their mission is, is to figure out, A, to define what spiritual

32:57

[00 33:14.987 – 00:33:18.547] healing is, to see if from there...

33:00

[00 33:18.547 – 00:33:20.247] 'Cause they've all seen it.

33:03

[00 33:20.247 – 00:33:24.347] Define what it is.

33:05

[00 33:24.347 – 00:33:34.707] Two, to see if there's some way, some commonality in the way that spiritual healing happens in different modalities, be it churches,

33:16

[00 33:34.707 – 00:33:41.477] be it in hospitals, be it through prayer groups, be it through, uh, adopting different philosophies.

33:24

[00 33:41.477 – 00:33:51.987] And then to see if they can't construct a methodology that, when applied,

33:30

[00 33:51.987 – 00:34:02.207] could bring results, and use that to revitalize churches and healing centers throughout

33:37

[00 34:02.207 – 00:34:02.667] the world.

33:38

[00 34:05.279 – 00:34:06.999] What a great enterprise.

33:40

[00 34:06.999 – 00:34:17.619] And the first person that they get to lead this thing is Aldous- or is, is Gerald Heard, who had put together the Trubek Institute

33:52

[00 34:17.619 – 00:34:19.999] of Prayer to figure out...

33:55

[00 34:19.999 – 00:34:30.319] What they tried to do there was try different methodologies of meditation and prayer, fasting, yoga, and the like, to see if there was something that helped elevate

34:09

[00 34:30.319 – 00:34:32.919] human consciousness more quickly than others.

34:12

[00 34:32.919 – 00:34:42.719] So Heard's the guy that's brought out to lead this conclave of intellectuals.

34:18

[00 34:42.719 – 00:34:52.769] He invites his good buddy, Aldous Huxley, to come and, and, and, and

34:25

[00 34:52.769 – 00:34:53.519] give the talk.

34:27

[00 34:53.519 – 00:34:59.399] And Huxley w- wasn't able to make it, but he was the, he was the keynote speaker.

34:35

[00 34:59.399 – 00:35:05.899] Anyway, there's a bunch of different, uh, uh, talks that are given.

34:41

[00 35:05.899 – 00:35:16.279] One of the great things that we've got at Stepping Stones is we actually have the, um, the reports from, uh, three of the five conferences on spiritual

34:54

[00 35:16.279 – 00:35:16.659] healing.

34:55

[00 35:16.659 – 00:35:26.669] Um, and some of the people, couple of people who were there were Tom Powers, who was the editor of Bill Wilson's writing,

35:06

[00 35:26.669 – 00:35:31.279] and Wilson himself, and they went to all five of the, of the conferences.

35:13

[00 35:31.279 – 00:35:38.519] The third conference, the keynote speaker is Bill Wilson.

35:18

[00 35:38.519 – 00:35:39.219] Why?

35:19

[00 35:39.219 – 00:35:49.469] Because he'd had the unit of experience, a methodology had been developed that

35:25

[00 35:49.469 – 00:35:58.339] actually was transferable, and more importantly, that it never was about him.

35:31

[00 35:58.339 – 00:36:10.059] And Wilson had a great respect amongst

35:35

[00 36:10.059 – 00:36:20.359] the most courageous thinkers of the 20th century because of what had happened in their lives, because of the work that had happened in Alcoholics Anonymous.

35:47

[00 36:20.359 – 00:36:32.119] 1956, or,

35:48

[00 36:32.119 – 00:36:42.619] sorry, in 1955, Professor Gerald Heard had started to work with Sidney Cohen out at the VA Hospital

35:57

[00 36:42.619 – 00:36:52.639] in Los Angeles, and working with some other people, artists, philosophers, and the like, in a

36:05

[00 36:52.639 – 00:36:57.419] new medical procedure called psychochemotherapy.

36:07

[00 36:57.419 – 00:37:06.279] And the agent of the chemotherapy was this new medicine called lysergic acid diethylamide.

36:14

[00 37:06.279 – 00:37:16.859] They're taking a look at this, and people are having these experiences, and Heard says, "The

36:22

[00 37:16.859 – 00:37:26.879] next person we need to come out here and participate in this is my friend Bill Wilson." Not because of his depression,

36:33

[00 37:26.879 – 00:37:29.619] not because of his personal problems.

36:36

[00 37:29.619 – 00:37:34.659] Wilson was invited into the psychedelic community for one reason.

36:41

[00 37:34.659 – 00:37:44.879] Was the experience that people were having from this exogenous substance, from this medicine,

36:48

[00 37:44.879 – 00:37:52.119] actually a valid spiritual experience?

36:51

[00 37:52.119 – 00:37:54.759] Was it something was sustainable?

36:54

[00 37:54.759 – 00:37:58.619] Was it something that was transferable?

36:57

[00 37:58.619 – 00:38:06.739] And so Wilson comes out and has, uh, has the, uh, has the experience out at UCLA.

37:05

[00 38:06.739 – 00:38:14.739] And if you read the transcript, you'll see that that's where the, the, the point was.

37:13

[00 38:14.739 – 00:38:24.898] Wilson, uh, says in a, in a number of, uh, communications that, um, that s-

37:20

[00 38:24.959 – 00:38:30.439] psychedelics for him were not about having a purgative experience.

37:25

[00 38:30.439 – 00:38:32.799] They were, they were not about going inside of himself.

37:30

[00 38:32.799 – 00:38:41.959] That what it was that, that, that, that he was brought into was, is this thing valid or not?

37:40

[00 38:41.959 – 00:38:47.039] And when you read the transcript, you can see that this is what the focus is.

37:48

[00 38:47.039 – 00:38:51.619] And they're never once talking about depression or, or any of those types of things.

37:55

[00 38:51.619 – 00:38:58.819] There's a group out on the West Coast.

37:59

[00 38:58.819 – 00:38:59.939] It's about eight people.

38:01

[00 38:59.939 – 00:39:09.999] And, uh, after Wilson's finished, Powers has an experience, and then a friend of theirs by the name of, of Powers, by the name

38:13

[00 39:09.999 – 00:39:14.799] of Zip Riley, um, has an experience.

38:17

[00 39:14.799 – 00:39:24.839] And they are invited to set up a group on the East Coast, because there was only so much that

38:26

[00 39:24.839 – 00:39:26.619] could be done on the West.

38:30

[00 39:26.619 – 00:39:36.649] And so when Wilson returns in 1956, he starts with his friends, and the people that really were the, the, the

38:39

[00 39:36.649 – 00:39:46.459] folks that had the most to do with this were Zip Riley, who had the money, um, Tom Powers, and Helen Wynn.

38:50

[00 39:46.459 – 00:39:56.459] And the three of them put together a, uh, proposal for funding that was given to the Parapsychology

38:59

[00 39:56.459 – 00:40:06.659] Foundation, and they went and, um, set up a program that had interviews that was, uh,

39:07

[00 40:06.659 – 00:40:12.479] uh, medically supervised, that, um, they interviewed people before and after.

39:12

[00 40:12.479 – 00:40:14.999] They tape recorded the experience they had.

39:16

[00 40:14.999 – 00:40:20.819] And they picked 16 intellectuals to be part of what was called the Basic Group.

39:23

[00 40:20.819 – 00:40:27.259] And there were transcripts made of, of, of the experiences.

39:28

[00 40:27.259 – 00:40:37.559] And the people that were part of that group, of the 16 people, 12 of them were part of this group of people that were involved

39:39

[00 40:37.559 – 00:40:39.799] in spiritual healing.

39:41

[00 40:39.799 – 00:40:50.619] When people talk about these folks dropping acid,

39:45

[00 40:50.619 – 00:40:52.529] there is nothing further from the tru-

39:49

[00 40:52.668 – 00:40:52.918] truth.

39:50

[00 40:52.918 – 00:40:59.358] There is nothing further from the truth.

39:54

[00 40:59.358 – 00:40:59.708] Mm-hmm.

39:55

[00 40:59.708 – 00:41:08.878] They were trying to find out whether or not this experience allowed people to have a change.

40:03

[00 41:08.878 – 00:41:11.698] One thing, one of my, my...

40:06

[00 41:11.698 – 00:41:21.878] Actually, the, the, the single, the letter that changed my relationship with Bill Wilson more than anything is a letter from, um,

40:17

[00 41:21.878 – 00:41:24.658] June 5th of 1958.

40:19

[00 41:24.658 – 00:41:35.098] So this is just before the basic group testing gets started, um, uh, on the East Coast with these people like Eileen Garrett

40:30

[00 41:35.098 – 00:41:36.198] involved.

40:31

[00 41:36.198 – 00:41:37.228] Um, Dr.

40:32

[00 41:37.228 – 00:41:41.457] Robert Laidlaw was doing the, the medical supervision.

40:36

[00 41:41.457 – 00:41:51.738] Um, Lucille and David Kahn, who were the people who financed, uh, Edgar Cayce's work in Virginia Beach, they were, they were part of, uh,

40:48

[00 41:51.738 – 00:41:52.878] part of this group of people.

40:51

[00 41:52.878 – 00:41:59.768] Um, who else do I wanna mention?

40:55

[00 41:59.768 – 00:42:06.398] Anyway, um, and Bill's getting a lot of heat from some friends.

41:01

[00 42:06.398 – 00:42:10.808] Um, and, uh, one of the things he s- he...

41:06

[00 42:10.808 – 00:42:20.908] So he writes this letter to Sam Shoemaker, and, um, if you wanna know about the letter, it's actually in, uh, Pass It On, not

41:18

[00 42:20.908 – 00:42:31.658] the let- the whole letter, but, but excerpts, and it's, uh, it's in chapter, uh...

41:26

[00 42:31.658 – 00:42:40.398] It's in chapter 13.

41:27

[00 42:40.398 – 00:42:43.778] Where's the...

41:29

[00 42:43.778 – 00:42:52.378] Anyway, it's h- it's hidden in, it's hidden here in plain language, page 180, chapter 10.

41:36

[00 42:52.378 – 00:43:01.218] Um, and, uh, Cleveland, a Swedenborg card fell out of the book.

41:42

[00 43:01.218 – 00:43:10.998] Um, anyway, uh, but in this he, he, he talks about, um, he's talking to his, his...

41:50

[00 43:10.998 – 00:43:16.518] People act like Wilson was s- skulking or sneaking around.

41:55

[00 43:16.518 – 00:43:26.578] Any time he did anything outside of what people believed w- he should be doing, um, he

42:03

[00 43:26.578 – 00:43:27.438] got lots of heat.

42:06

[00 43:27.438 – 00:43:28.138] There's a, a...

42:08

[00 43:28.138 – 00:43:37.358] But in this he says, uh, "As you know, the leak is around that I'm interested..." He's talking about, uh, psychedelics.

42:18

[00 43:37.358 – 00:43:41.538] "This is one of those cases where the truth will make little difference to many people.

42:26

[00 43:41.538 – 00:43:46.418] With them, contempt prior to investigation will be the rule.

42:31

[00 43:46.418 – 00:43:52.958] Uh, nor will they investigate, they will only yell." And Wilson is...

42:37

[00 43:52.958 – 00:43:59.037] I mean, this is a scientific experiment that is happening with his closest friends.

42:44

[00 43:59.037 – 00:44:06.518] This is what he's involved with.

42:47

[00 44:06.518 – 00:44:16.538] And, um, and it had to do with finding out whether or not the experience was

42:55

[00 44:16.538 – 00:44:19.597] sustainable.

42:56

[00 44:19.597 – 00:44:26.468] And ultimately what was found was that it was not, after a few years.

43:03

[00 44:26.468 – 00:44:36.518] But they, they, they documented the, um, the, um, the results,

43:08

[00 44:36.518 – 00:44:46.518] what people felt, how they saw God before, how they saw God afterwards, uh, their, their feelings about themselves, and th- that this did

43:20

[00 44:46.518 – 00:44:54.318] indeed produce unitive experiences, but they ended up not being sustainable.

43:25

[00 44:54.318 – 00:45:02.228] And one of the things that I like to say is that, uh, Alcoholics Anonymous is sustainable spirituality.

43:34

[00 45:02.228 – 00:45:06.538] We know this from sitting at a kitchen table with another person.

43:40

[00 45:06.538 – 00:45:09.738] So they spend...

43:42

[00 45:09.738 – 00:45:18.098] They, it was only 12 weeks, and they dove into this and they tried a n- a, a number of things, and they compared the notes and all that.

43:55

[00 45:18.098 – 00:45:22.018] One of the things that happened...

43:58

[00 45:22.018 – 00:45:24.658] And, and this group was, uh...

44:02

[00 45:24.658 – 00:45:34.718] You weren't supposed to be doing anything other than the methodology that was, that was prescribed from, for the, for the

44:12

[00 45:34.718 – 00:45:35.998] participants of the group.

44:14

[00 45:35.998 – 00:45:46.058] And, um, and it was the, the goal of the group was to find

44:21

[00 45:46.058 – 00:45:53.058] out whether or not this produced the unitive experience, and that all of the energy was put with this.

44:30

[00 45:53.058 – 00:46:01.318] So Helen Winn, who was very involved in all of this, she was involved in the scheduling, she did the note-taking.

44:41

[00 46:01.318 – 00:46:05.918] I mean, you know, they talk about when America was great.

44:46

[00 46:05.918 – 00:46:13.248] America was shit-faced, and the feminine form did a lot of the work and the, and the guys got credit for it.

44:57

[00 46:13.248 – 00:46:19.318] But she was in charge of the scheduling and the, and the recordings and the transcriptions, and, I mean, without her...

45:07

[00 46:19.318 – 00:46:26.868] She took this big house, uh, um, in Chautauqua that they, uh, that they used for the, uh, for most of the sessions.

45:18

[00 46:26.868 – 00:46:32.638] And, uh, they'd have these reel-to-reel tape recorders and all that.

45:23

[00 46:32.638 – 00:46:42.698] And, um, anyway, uh, Helen was, uh, using the Ouija board with, uh, her friend Lib Covington, and the control,

45:33

[00 46:42.698 – 00:46:52.978] uh, on the Ouija board suggested that if Lib, um, participated in the LSD study,

45:41

[00 46:52.978 – 00:47:02.638] that her precognition scores would go up exponentially, and it would last that way for about 12 weeks and then it'd sto- and then, then they'd fall back to normal.

45:54

[00 47:02.638 – 00:47:12.638] I mentioned that one of the people that was involved in this group was Carlton Sherwood, who was involved with Duke University, and they had a new wing of

46:08

[00 47:12.638 – 00:47:16.898] psychology called parapsychology, and that was run by J- Dr.

46:13

[00 47:16.898 – 00:47:17.318] J.B.

46:15

[00 47:17.318 – 00:47:22.778] Rhine, the person who popularized DSP and, and, and all this stuff.

46:21

[00 47:22.778 – 00:47:28.398] And, and, and Wilson and Rhine were familiar with each other.

46:26

[00 47:28.398 – 00:47:30.138] They sent each other books and the like.

46:30

[00 47:30.138 – 00:47:38.058] Wilson had let, uh, Rhine know what was, what was up, and Carlton Sherwood was kind of their mutual friend.

46:40

[00 47:38.058 – 00:47:41.208] So Lib indeed gets involved-

46:43

[00 47:41.520 – 00:47:51.030] this and, um, and Powers and some of the people got very upset that, that the group's getting off track.

46:53

[00 47:51.030 – 00:47:59.210] They're getting into the paranormal, and we wanna, we wanna stick with something that's more religious.

47:00

[00 47:59.210 – 00:48:09.210] Concurrently, another thing happened where there was a rather rabid priest that, uh, his article was,

47:08

[00 48:09.210 – 00:48:13.970] um, LSD: The Devil's Greatest Tool.

47:12

[00 48:13.970 – 00:48:19.910] And, um, like, I, I don't have the guy's name in front of me.

47:19

[00 48:19.910 – 00:48:30.130] Anyway, um, he knew Zip Riley, and this, when this, when Riley tried to have a, a conversation with the priest about

47:29

[00 48:30.130 – 00:48:36.570] what the work that they were doing, this guy was, said that he was gonna blow the cover off the whole thing.

47:40

[00 48:36.570 – 00:48:45.830] And at that time, any time that there was anything positive said about psychedelics in the press, it was immediately followed with backlash from others.

47:52

[00 48:45.830 – 00:48:55.900] So, so Wilson's contribution to psychedelic therapy had to do with this

47:58

[00 48:55.900 – 00:49:06.150] whole methodology that they set up, and for the next six years when people in other groups were starting

48:07

[00 49:06.150 – 00:49:11.870] to work with these exogenous substances, they would reach out to Wilson and ask, "How do you set a group up?

48:17

[00 49:11.870 – 00:49:12.350] What do you do?

48:19

[00 49:12.350 – 00:49:17.250] Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." So he was a point of contact about this information to a lot of people.

48:30

[00 49:17.250 – 00:49:21.030] Or not a lot of people, a few people.

48:35

[00 49:21.030 – 00:49:24.360] Maybe, maybe 10, 12 different organizations.

48:37

[00 49:24.360 – 00:49:34.590] But that's the, that's the contribution that he made, he and his friends made,

48:44

[00 49:34.590 – 00:49:40.490] to psychedelic therapy, to psycho-chemotherapy, if you will.

48:48

[00 49:40.490 – 00:49:50.580] And, uh, there's a lot of other interesting information that I'll share with you another time, some of the things that, that, that,

48:59

[00 49:50.580 – 00:49:51.170] that happened.

49:01

[00 49:51.170 – 00:49:52.110] But that's, uh...

49:02

[00 49:52.110 – 00:49:55.750] I, I don't think that...

49:05

[00 49:55.750 – 00:49:58.690] Well, no.

49:07

[00 49:58.690 – 00:50:08.150] I believe it's my privilege to share this thesis about how this information was gathered and disseminated.

49:15

[00 50:08.150 – 00:50:14.250] And, and so it's, uh, it's part of my, my mission and what I'm doing.

49:22

[00 50:14.250 – 00:50:18.410] Um, so we've gone through just a few of the things.

49:28

[00 50:18.410 – 00:50:27.750] Um, I got a bunch more, but, um, it's getting on the late side, um, so there's that.

49:37

[00 50:27.750 – 00:50:30.450] I'm gonna drop the curtain on this.

49:40

[00 50:30.450 – 00:50:40.610] And then, um, to, uh, suggest to you that I'd, I'd like you to watch, um, you're gonna be the first

49:50

[00 50:40.610 – 00:50:40.770] to...

49:51

[00 50:40.770 – 00:50:43.750] I just got this literally, what, two hours ago?

49:56

[00 50:43.750 – 00:50:51.890] Two hours ago I just got this trailer for the film that we've, we've made about Bill W.: Conscious Contact.

50:06

[00 50:51.890 – 00:50:55.670] Specifically about, uh, uh...

50:08

[00 50:55.670 – 00:51:05.830] And, and when I say we, I mean that, uh, I have the great privilege to be, uh, in a joint venture with the Stepping Stones Foundation

50:21

[00 51:05.830 – 00:51:06.990] regarding this film.

50:23

[00 51:06.990 – 00:51:17.070] Um, this film will be available, eh, May 2nd, I'm hoping,

50:28

[00 51:17.070 – 00:51:20.550] um, for purchase on Vimeo.

50:31

[00 51:20.550 – 00:51:30.590] More importantly, the film will be available for free to any group, convention, anybody

50:38

[00 51:30.590 – 00:51:40.630] who's raising consciousness about recovery, uh, for them to show either as a fundraiser or to use, uh, to use, um, um, you know, just as

50:51

[00 51:40.630 – 00:51:44.750] a, a, an excuse for people to get together and, and raise consciousness.

50:57

[00 51:44.750 – 00:51:54.030] So, um, uh, and it's a, a 60-minute movie and, uh, there's some really fun stuff in it.

51:06

[00 51:54.030 – 00:52:06.050] And, uh, so why don't you go ahead and pl- play the trailer, and then I'll say a couple words, and then I'll be delighted to take any questions that you might have.

51:21

[00 52:06.050 – 00:52:11.690] I had no idea who Bill W.

51:25

[00 52:11.690 – 00:52:13.490] was at the time.

51:27

[00 52:13.490 – 00:52:18.410] And I said, "I don't know who you are talking about." And then I found out who Bill W.

51:37

[00 52:18.410 – 00:52:18.890] was.

51:38

[00 52:18.890 – 00:52:28.950] What a great thing to be here again at Stepping Stones, and to be able

51:45

[00 52:28.950 – 00:52:31.390] to talk about this great man.

51:48

[00 52:31.390 – 00:52:35.390] Well, thanks for being here at Bill and Lois's home in New York.

51:55

[00 52:35.390 – 00:52:46.870] Bill

51:56

[00 52:46.870 – 00:52:49.610] and Lois moved here in 1941.

51:58

[00 52:49.610 – 00:53:00.150] Lois spoke of it being more regular when they got here at Stepping Stones.

52:05

[00 53:00.150 – 00:53:00.299] Absolutely.

52:06

[00 53:00.299 – 00:53:06.370] A regular place after the years of drinking, the years of getting AA off the ground, and the years of homelessness.

52:16

[00 53:06.370 – 00:53:11.070] They spent the rest of their lives here.

52:21

[00 53:11.070 – 00:53:17.930] He was a pioneer.

52:23

[00 53:17.930 – 00:53:23.650] Pioneers are people that go places that other people are afraid to go.

52:29

[00 53:23.650 – 00:53:27.190] He was a Wall Street entrepreneur, and he just made a boatload of money.

52:36

[00 53:27.190 – 00:53:28.730] He was a really, really smart guy.

52:40

[00 53:28.730 – 00:53:31.570] He, he turned into a bad drunk really quickly.

52:45

[00 53:31.570 – 00:53:34.070] But now the drinking caught up with me.

52:49

[00 53:34.070 – 00:53:40.170] Well, it was at that point that I fell over the last precipice, almost to my death.

52:57

[00 53:40.170 – 00:53:45.220] For the first time, I knew absolute and utter hopelessness.

53:02

[00 53:45.220 – 00:53:50.070] I knew that I had no personal power to go on.

53:08

[00 53:50.070 – 00:54:00.090] One of the really fascinating things about this man is the white light experience he had that convinced him of the validity of the spiritual side, as

53:21

[00 54:00.090 – 00:54:03.070] opposed to the materialist he had been right up until that point.

53:27

[00 54:03.070 – 00:54:09.270] And the sad thing is that the essence of what happened to Bill Wilson gets lost because it's a cliche.

53:36

[00 54:09.270 – 00:54:11.650] All human beings, we have a hole.

53:40

[00 54:11.650 – 00:54:13.370] We have a hole in ourselves.

53:43

[00 54:13.370 – 00:54:19.890] Wilson basically said, uh, "Need to pour some of that spiritual stuff in there." Again, we're back to the 11th step, prayer and meditation.

53:55

[00 54:19.890 – 00:54:21.670] I think it's a brilliant, brilliant message.

53:59

[00 54:21.670 – 00:54:26.750] But anyway, I taught him, I gave him his mantra, and then I left him to meditate.

54:07

[00 54:26.750 – 00:54:30.000] 20 minutes passed, and that was his first meditation

54:11

[00 54:30.522 – 00:54:39.082] And with that, the, the door bursts open and Bill comes rushing in, and he says, "This thing works." I said, "Bill, it's your first time.

54:23

[00 54:39.082 – 00:54:49.612] Take it easy." So it was unusual to have a person of Bill's age start meditating so late because he was suffering.

54:34

[00 54:49.612 – 00:54:56.062] You could tell he was already suffering health issues, and he was getting on in years.

54:42

[00 54:56.062 – 00:55:00.702] So it was unusual to be a seeker at that age.

54:48

[00 55:00.702 – 00:55:07.282] But I think that was him, right?

54:51

[00 55:07.282 – 00:55:16.182] So there you go.

54:54

[00 55:16.182 – 00:55:22.142] That, uh, that gentleman's Lincoln Norton, the man who taught Bill Wilson transcendental meditation.

55:00

[00 55:22.142 – 00:55:32.582] And one of the fun things that's, uh, happened over the past few years is that I'd read in some TM journals

55:11

[00 55:32.582 – 00:55:42.962] about Wilson practicing transcendental meditation, but it wasn't anywhere in any of the AA information

55:18

[00 55:43.022 – 00:55:43.702] any place.

55:20

[00 55:43.702 – 00:55:46.942] And so I could only tell it as an anecdote.

55:25

[00 55:46.942 – 00:55:57.562] And I'm down in Texas, and I'm telling it as an anecdote, and the guy comes up to me and he says, "My dad taught Bill transcendental meditation."

55:38

[00 55:57.562 – 00:55:58.662] Bingo.

55:39

[00 55:58.662 – 00:56:00.952] The second source.

55:41

[00 56:00.952 – 00:56:07.882] And then he says, "Do you wanna meet my father?" And that's Lincoln Norton.

55:48

[00 56:07.882 – 00:56:11.522] And I called up our friends at the Steppingstones Foundation.

55:53

[00 56:11.522 – 00:56:13.382] I said, "I got this ...

55:56

[00 56:13.382 – 00:56:15.162] I, I got a real piece of history here.

56:00

[00 56:15.162 – 00:56:19.082] I've got a real new contribution that we can make.

56:06

[00 56:19.082 – 00:56:29.082] Can I come up there and do a little thing with my iPad?" And, um, they said, "Oh, yeah." And of course, once I started thinking about it,

56:19

[00 56:29.082 – 00:56:39.202] uh, I got ahold of Kevin Hanlon, who's the person who, uh, directed the Bill W documentary 12 years ago, who's a dear friend

56:30

[00 56:39.202 – 00:56:42.302] of mine, and asked him if he'd be willing to come on board.

56:37

[00 56:42.302 – 00:56:45.762] And, uh, and so we've, uh, we've got this.

56:41

[00 56:45.762 – 00:56:50.922] This is the first documentary about Bill Wilson in, in 12 years.

56:47

[00 56:50.922 – 00:56:56.862] It's only the fourth cinematic presentation about anything about h- this man.

56:53

[00 56:56.862 – 00:57:05.242] And, uh, and we have the great privilege of talking about him and his seeking.

57:00

[00 57:05.242 – 00:57:09.282] And, uh, so anyway, there you go.

57:04

[00 57:09.282 – 00:57:10.422] That's it.

57:05

[00 57:10.422 – 00:57:14.362] Thank you so much, Jay.

57:08

[00 57:14.362 – 00:57:16.842] And, uh, now we have some time for questions.

57:13

[00 57:16.842 – 00:57:24.462] If anyone has a question for Jay, please use the raise hand function, and I will call on you as you raise your hands.

57:24

[00 57:24.462 – 00:57:40.462] All

57:25

[00 57:40.462 – 00:57:40.602] right.

57:26

[00 57:40.602 – 00:57:42.402] Bill, you can unmute.

57:28

[00 57:42.402 – 00:57:45.342] Hey, guys.

57:30

[00 57:45.342 – 00:57:48.422] I'm Bill, and I'm associated with the Steppingstones Foundation.

57:34

[00 57:48.422 – 00:57:52.222] I just wanna thank you, Jay, for your effort here.

57:39

[00 57:52.222 – 00:57:59.712] I mean, I've spoken to you offline about this, and, um, I'm just so impressed with their- your enthusiasm.

57:49

[00 57:59.712 – 00:58:05.282] And, you know, y- you mentioned the rabbit hole in the beginning and you've gone down a deep one here.

57:58

[00 58:05.282 – 00:58:10.822] And it's just to all of our benefit, though, to the, the fact that you're uncovering all this incredible stuff.

58:08

[00 58:10.822 – 00:58:20.682] I had the privilege of being at the, uh, at Steppingstones the night that Jay interviewed Lincoln Norton, and we all gathered after the filming.

58:20

[00 58:20.682 – 00:58:28.882] And, uh, uh, uh, uh, a really interesting guy.

58:25

[00 58:28.882 – 00:58:30.092] This is a guy who's, what is it, Jay?

58:29

[00 58:30.092 – 00:58:31.662] 66 years or something like that.

58:32

[00 58:31.662 – 00:58:33.612] N- no, um, since like 1966.

58:35

[00 58:33.612 – 00:58:34.362] That's what it's been.

58:37

[00 58:34.362 – 00:58:35.302] Yeah.

58:38

[00 58:35.302 – 00:58:39.202] Every single day, this guy has meditated, TM.

58:42

[00 58:39.202 – 00:58:42.892] He's a real spiritual guy, and, um, Jay really uncovered...

58:47

[00 58:42.892 – 00:58:44.782] I mean, Steppingstones introduced him.

58:50

[00 58:44.782 – 00:58:54.802] It all goes back to, um, just a little history here that you probably know, but our head archivist at Steppingstones, Sharon Wolf, discovered Lois used to take

59:03

[00 58:54.802 – 00:58:59.922] notes of everybody who visited the house, and he, she found, like, uh, how are we gonna trace him down?

59:13

[00 58:59.922 – 00:59:07.742] Well, she found that Lincoln Norton was notated, notated in her diary in, was it 1970, Jay?

59:21

[00 59:07.742 – 00:59:08.402] I think it was.

59:23

[00 59:08.402 – 00:59:08.682] Yeah.

59:24

[00 59:08.682 – 00:59:12.082] It was j- it was, it was a checking meeting that- Right.

59:30

[00 59:12.082 – 00:59:13.602] Yeah.

59:31

[00 59:13.602 – 00:59:18.702] And found his name and, you know, made the connection and all that sort of stuff.

59:39

[00 59:18.702 – 00:59:28.842] So the fact that this all came together, all the stars lined up, you might say, for Jay to do this is, um, it's really fascinating and incredible

59:52

[00 59:28.842 – 00:59:36.382] the connections that were made and Bill's interest in TM and, uh, Lincoln's fascinating story.

60:00

[00 59:36.382 – 00:59:43.062] You know, he went over to the India and met the Maharishi, which is also who taught The Beatles TM and things like that.

60:11

[00 59:43.062 – 00:59:47.102] So it's, it's, it's got all kinds of legs to the story, and I'm really glad you've done it, Jay.

60:21

[00 59:47.102 – 00:59:57.162] And I just wanted to compliment you from my personal perspective of having to get to know you about this, and you're, you're a real, real visionary when it came to putting this all together, so

60:38

[00 59:57.162 – 00:59:58.502] thanks.

60:39

[00 59:58.502 – 01:00:01.142] And thank you for entrusting me.

60:42

[01 00:01.142 – 01:00:03.382] You know, one of the things that they...

60:46

[01 00:03.382 – 01:00:14.722] I, I, I helped w- along with a number of you here, um, raise m- money for the digita- digitization, say

60:57

[01 00:14.722 – 01:00:19.422] that three times, um, of all of Bill and Lois's writings.

61:02

[01 00:19.422 – 01:00:29.452] And, um, and then I've ha- I was privileged to be the, um, beta tester, and that's why I've

61:11

[01 00:29.452 – 01:00:32.782] been able to, to read so much of Wilson's letters.

61:16

[01 00:32.782 – 01:00:43.222] And previously what would happen is, you know, like if you go to, to the general service office, you can apply, and you get a folder just

61:29

[01 00:43.222 – 01:00:44.782] like we used to do at Steppingstones.

61:33

[01 00:44.782 – 01:00:51.172] But you'd get a folder, and w- it'd have some of the information in it, but you didn't know exactly where it is.

61:44

[01 00:51.172 – 01:00:56.432] And you'd go, and you'd start reading through it, and you'd only have so many hours.

61:52

[01 00:56.432 – 01:01:01.362] And then you'd have to, you know, give it back and, and go off.

61:59

[01 01:01.362 – 01:01:05.862] And if you live out in the we- out west like I do, that's difficult to do research.

62:08

[01 01:05.862 – 01:01:16.282] Tonight, you can go and read some of those same letters yourself and

62:14

[01 01:16.282 – 01:01:17.382] meditate upon them.

62:16

[01 01:20.020 – 01:01:23.480] Not have your thinking or your heart hurried by.

62:21

[01 01:23.480 – 01:01:33.680] And this is what we've been able to do with the foundation, with all of, you know, uh, the, the amount of stuff that's, that's, that's on there is, is just incredible.

62:36

[01 01:33.680 – 01:01:43.000] And what- when the movie comes out, we're gonna, um, have a lot of the different, um, uh, source materials.

62:46

[01 01:43.000 – 01:01:47.420] They'll, they'll come up on the site and be part of things for everybody to enjoy.

62:53

[01 01:47.420 – 01:01:50.320] Um, another side story, kind of fun.

62:57

[01 01:50.320 – 01:01:55.360] Um, I don't practice TM, but I, I do a mantra meditation.

63:03

[01 01:55.360 – 01:02:07.260] And one day I'm talking to the guy who's, who gave me my mantra, and he goes, uh, "Oh, I meditated with Bill W." What?

63:15

[01 02:07.260 – 01:02:18.750] And it turns out that this guy, uh, who wants to remain anonymous, um, uh, was

63:23

[01 02:18.750 – 01:02:28.960] asked to go down to Miami in July of 1970 when the International was going on

63:30

[01 02:28.960 – 01:02:32.420] to see if he could give Bill a different...

63:35

[01 02:32.420 – 01:02:35.440] There are different levels that people can learn in.

63:40

[01 02:35.440 – 01:02:42.520] Give Bill a different technique, which was to be able to meditate one hour twice a day.

63:48

[01 02:42.520 – 01:02:50.630] Um, and, uh, he got to check Wilson's practice, and he called Wilson a champion meditator.

63:56

[01 02:50.630 – 01:02:51.840] He told a fun story.

63:59

[01 02:51.840 – 01:02:55.890] He says, "So I go in and I'm, I'm, I'm..." He, he was a young guy, you know.

64:07

[01 02:55.890 – 01:02:59.780] Uh, uh, Lincoln was, uh, I think 24.

64:11

[01 02:59.780 – 01:03:03.680] Um, and uh, this other cat was 22.

64:15

[01 03:03.680 – 01:03:14.160] Uh, they were part of what was called the, uh, Student International Movement, for those of you that have the, the, uh, the the haircut might remember

64:28

[01 03:14.160 – 01:03:18.760] when, uh, TM was, uh, was first blowing up ar- around the United States.

64:35

[01 03:18.760 – 01:03:22.980] Anyway, he comes in and there's this woman, and he greets her.

64:41

[01 03:22.980 – 01:03:31.320] And, and, uh, and, and Bill's, uh, sitting in this chair, and he's got a long, uh, lead on his oxygen.

64:51

[01 03:31.320 – 01:03:35.140] And he keeps getting up and talking and walking around 'cause he's excited.

64:57

[01 03:35.140 – 01:03:35.820] He's got a visitor.

65:00

[01 03:35.820 – 01:03:39.740] And, um, then he'd have to sit down again.

65:04

[01 03:39.740 – 01:03:43.800] And, and, uh, finally takes off the oxygen and he lights up a cigarette.

65:11

[01 03:43.800 – 01:03:49.000] And, and, and the woman comes in from the other room.

65:17

[01 03:49.000 – 01:03:51.460] And, and she's not pissed at Bill for smoking.

65:21

[01 03:51.460 – 01:03:54.300] It's the oxygen that's got her upset.

65:25

[01 03:54.300 – 01:04:00.780] But anyway, my, uh, my, my friend, uh, uh, had the, had the, uh, thing.

65:32

[01 04:00.780 – 01:04:07.900] And he, he's, that one night he, he, he meditated with Bill and then came back the next morning and, and did it again.

65:44

[01 04:07.900 – 01:04:11.340] And, um, and then he never saw him again.

65:49

[01 04:11.340 – 01:04:22.840] So it's, it's nice to know, you know, when we talk about the 11th step, to realize that the person who wrote it, when

66:00

[01 04:22.840 – 01:04:33.040] he was really challenged in his life, turned to meditation for help.

66:06

[01 04:33.040 – 01:04:44.700] Ready

66:07

[01 04:44.700 – 01:04:45.480] for the next question.

66:09

[01 04:45.480 – 01:04:47.760] Charlie, you can unmute.

66:12

[01 04:47.760 – 01:04:50.800] Yes.

66:13

[01 04:50.800 – 01:04:51.520] Charlie Alcoholic.

66:14

[01 04:51.520 – 01:04:52.520] Thanks.

66:15

[01 04:52.520 – 01:04:53.620] Thanks, Jay.

66:16

[01 04:53.620 – 01:04:57.240] Let me get my camera turned on here, uh, for Ken.

66:22

[01 04:57.240 – 01:04:57.880] Yeah, here we go.

66:24

[01 04:57.880 – 01:05:01.740] Um, thank you for your presentation.

66:27

[01 05:01.740 – 01:05:08.300] Did I understand you previously to s- to state that Lincoln's father knew Bill Wilson?

66:35

[01 05:08.300 – 01:05:10.180] Was there- L- yeah.

66:37

[01 05:10.180 – 01:05:13.460] Oh, so this is the way the, the, the lineage goes.

66:43

[01 05:13.460 – 01:05:15.560] I'm in Texas.

66:44

[01 05:15.560 – 01:05:22.680] I meet Lincoln's son, who's an active member down there.

66:50

[01 05:22.680 – 01:05:33.220] He says, "My dad taught Bill TM." So I go and meet his father, and it turns out, and this story's in the, in the film, that Lincoln's

67:03

[01 05:33.220 – 01:05:39.759] father, Tom, was an active AA member in Bedford Hills.

67:08

[01 05:39.759 – 01:05:44.340] Very close to, uh, to Helen Wynn.

67:12

[01 05:44.340 – 01:05:45.900] She helped him get sober.

67:14

[01 05:45.900 – 01:05:49.820] And he was an AA member for 56 years.

67:19

[01 05:49.820 – 01:05:54.280] Just kills me that I didn't get a chance to, to meet this guy or interview him.

67:27

[01 05:54.280 – 01:05:54.720] Right, Bill?

67:28

[01 05:54.720 – 01:05:58.240] I mean, he's, he's, he's blocks from the foundation, right?

67:33

[01 05:58.240 – 01:06:00.760] Tom, Tom, uh, Tom Norton.

67:36

[01 06:00.760 – 01:06:09.000] And, uh, um, anyway, uh, uh, so Tom was friends with Bill.

67:42

[01 06:09.000 – 01:06:18.600] He got sober, I wanna say it was 1956.

67:46

[01 06:18.600 – 01:06:22.280] But I can't remember, but it's in the film.

67:51

[01 06:22.280 – 01:06:25.600] And so Tom was a sober member.

67:55

[01 06:25.600 – 01:06:31.380] His son's the one who became the, uh, initiator in transcendental meditation.

68:01

[01 06:31.380 – 01:06:41.380] And what happened is, is, is when Lincoln had only been meditating for a little while, and he came back on spring break from Harvard and saw his

68:14

[01 06:41.380 – 01:06:46.200] dad, and his dad said, his dad who was sober, said, "What's, what's up with you?

68:22

[01 06:46.200 – 01:06:51.260] There's something different that's going on." Lincoln says, "Nah, there's nothing different going on.

68:29

[01 06:51.260 – 01:06:57.820] Oh, yeah, I did learn this meditation practice." And his dad, the next day, went and got his mantra.

68:38

[01 06:57.820 – 01:07:07.880] And, um, and then when his son came back from India a couple years later,

68:45

[01 07:07.880 – 01:07:16.760] um, Tom and, and Helen and, uh, and Bill got together and there were a couple other people from the group.

68:56

[01 07:16.760 – 01:07:21.620] And yes, Bill Wilson paid for his mantra just like everybody else, so.

69:02

[01 07:21.620 – 01:07:30.070] Was the, uh, the Helen, was this the Helen that Bill left the royalties to the Big Book to?

69:11

[01 07:30.070 – 01:07:31.120] Is that the same Helen?

69:14

[01 07:31.120 – 01:07:35.220] His very, very close associate, yeah.

69:17

[01 07:35.220 – 01:07:35.600] Thank you.

69:19

[01 07:35.600 – 01:07:37.460] And one more, one more.

69:21

[01 07:37.460 – 01:07:38.780] You mentioned Edgar Cayce.

69:24

[01 07:38.780 – 01:07:42.460] What, what information- Yeah ...

69:26

[01 07:42.460 – 01:07:44.960] what information do you have on him?

69:30

[01 07:44.960 – 01:07:52.500] Um, my Edgar Cayce phase was 1971.

69:33

[01 07:52.500 – 01:08:00.000] So I don't have any, any, any new s- Yeah, that, that, that's what I have.

69:41

[01 08:00.000 – 01:08:07.550] But the people that financed his work in Virginia Beach finan-

69:46

[01 08:07.792 – 01:08:11.372] - the hospital, was a Texas oil family.

69:51

[01 08:11.372 – 01:08:13.992] Last name's Kahn, K-A-H-N.

69:53

[01 08:13.992 – 01:08:25.712] David Kahn and his wife Lucille were, um, very, uh, uh, wonderful

69:59

[01 08:25.712 – 01:08:32.152] socialites and spiritual seekers in New York in the '40s and '50s and '60s.

70:07

[01 08:32.152 – 01:08:34.392] They were very close to Eugene Exman.

70:11

[01 08:34.392 – 01:08:44.532] And Lucille actually had a salon where different people that Exman would be publishing would come to,

70:19

[01 08:44.532 – 01:08:51.172] uh, uh, give talks and sign their books and all that stuff.

70:25

[01 08:51.172 – 01:09:01.292] For example, Garma Chöshing Sharchö, who taught the, who, who, the first book published in the United States about

70:35

[01 09:01.292 – 01:09:05.212] Zen Buddhism was by this man.

70:38

[01 09:05.212 – 01:09:14.712] And Eugene Exman and, uh, Harper Brothers, uh, indeed published, uh, published this book.

70:45

[01 09:14.712 – 01:09:17.752] He was also a member of the Basic group.

70:50

[01 09:17.752 – 01:09:24.292] And, uh, I've actually listened to his experience.

70:54

[01 09:24.292 – 01:09:26.992] He had never even smoked a cigarette.

70:58

[01 09:26.992 – 01:09:30.472] He had never done anything to alter his consciousness at all.

71:03

[01 09:30.472 – 01:09:40.532] So, um, a heroic, uh, what, what my daughter's friends would call a heroic dose of,

71:11

[01 09:40.532 – 01:09:49.972] uh, lysergic acid, uh, was, uh, distressing to him at, at different times.

71:17

[01 09:49.972 – 01:09:53.392] And, um, I actually listened to the...

71:21

[01 09:53.392 – 01:10:00.932] There's nothing more boring than listening to somebody else's psychedelic voyage, by the way .

71:28

[01 10:00.932 – 01:10:04.272] But, um, but yeah.

71:30

[01 10:04.272 – 01:10:14.352] So, so anyway, the Kahns were, um, big players in the social, and then Lucille was actually,

71:39

[01 10:14.352 – 01:10:22.862] um, uh, Eileen Garrett's closest, uh, uh, person at the Parapsychology Foundation.

71:45

[01 10:22.862 – 01:10:25.862] So these, these were some real players.

71:48

[01 10:25.862 – 01:10:32.692] Do you believe that there is some genetic connection to clar- clairvoyancy?

71:54

[01 10:32.692 – 01:10:41.592] Say, if somebody's a clairvoyant, somebody in their genetic line may have been or has connection with?

72:03

[01 10:41.592 – 01:10:44.912] See, that don't matter with me a belief, it's experience.

72:08

[01 10:44.912 – 01:10:55.472] Um, both of, uh, my, well my maternal great-grandmother

72:12

[01 10:55.472 – 01:11:03.242] would frighten people with the acc- accuracy of her tea readings.

72:18

[01 11:03.242 – 01:11:11.352] Um, my paternal grandmother, Marie, um, was born with a cowl.

72:23

[01 11:11.352 – 01:11:18.452] Um, my daughter is, uh, witchy beyond description.

72:28

[01 11:18.452 – 01:11:22.652] Interesting.

72:29

[01 11:22.652 – 01:11:33.092] The reason why I ask is that, uh, Cayce, um, Edgar Cayce's mother was a major,

72:36

[01 11:33.092 – 01:11:36.172] and she was from Christian County, Kentucky.

72:40

[01 11:36.172 – 01:11:40.692] And Don Major, my sponsor's sponsor, was from Christian County, Kentucky.

72:46

[01 11:40.692 – 01:11:46.172] And then, uh, Edgar moved to Bowling Green, and then from Bowling Green started his journey.

72:54

[01 11:46.172 – 01:11:54.692] So, uh, and, and Don was very, and Don has since passed on, but yes, he was very, uh, he taught me a lot.

73:05

[01 11:54.692 – 01:11:55.312] So thank you.

73:07

[01 11:55.312 – 01:11:56.422] Yeah, you're welcome.

73:09

[01 11:56.422 – 01:12:01.852] Thank you, Charlie, and next is Sandy.

73:12

[01 12:01.852 – 01:12:02.652] You can unmute.

73:14

[01 12:02.652 – 01:12:06.672] Hi, Sandy, alcoholic.

73:16

[01 12:06.672 – 01:12:07.352] Thank you, Jay.

73:18

[01 12:07.352 – 01:12:08.812] That was mesmerizing.

73:20

[01 12:08.812 – 01:12:10.792] You're always mesmerizing.

73:22

[01 12:10.792 – 01:12:10.992] Thank you.

73:23

[01 12:10.992 – 01:12:12.512] And a great storyteller.

73:25

[01 12:12.512 – 01:12:22.872] I, I couldn't help but thinking when you were talking about Lois, uh, bringing, uh, cups of coffee to, to Bill and her in the, in bed,

73:38

[01 12:22.872 – 01:12:28.712] and, and it, it took me right to An Awakening from the book and our prayer in the morning.

73:48

[01 12:28.712 – 01:12:38.872] And it seemed to me that that was just an example straight in the book about what the practice that they had been adopting or using for many years.

74:01

[01 12:38.872 – 01:12:40.652] So that just brought it to life for me.

74:06

[01 12:40.652 – 01:12:45.412] And so tomorrow morning I'll bring one to my dog and myself, and we'll lay in bed- There you go ...

74:16

[01 12:45.412 – 01:12:46.482] and see how it works .

74:18

[01 12:46.482 – 01:12:48.972] But, um, really love that.

74:21

[01 12:48.972 – 01:12:59.432] I, I, uh, you once said this when you were doing another talk about, uh, conscious consciousness, cosmic consciousness,

74:31

[01 12:59.432 – 01:13:09.472] you know, that perhaps we're on a precipice of another real spiritual seeking, uh, uh, in the world right now just 'cause of all of

74:43

[01 13:09.472 – 01:13:11.052] the things that are going on.

74:46

[01 13:11.052 – 01:13:21.212] And I was thinking of when you were talking about, I'll say LSD, 'cause I can't pronounce the long word, but, you know, uh, everyone, uh, flocking to Peru now,

75:00

[01 13:21.212 – 01:13:25.102] uh, professional athletes, singers, uh- Mm-hmm ...

75:03

[01 13:25.102 – 01:13:27.092] for the ayahuasca, if I can...

75:07

[01 13:27.092 – 01:13:28.852] No, I'm not saying that right maybe.

75:10

[01 13:28.852 – 01:13:39.081] But, you know, again, trying to deepen their level of spiritual awakening or heal the cancer, or wondered about your opinion about

75:21

[01 13:39.081 – 01:13:41.372] that.

75:22

[01 13:41.372 – 01:13:58.572] Well, just

75:23

[01 13:58.572 – 01:14:08.592] for fun, I'll read you a little something from a man far more smart and elegant than

75:31

[01 14:08.592 – 01:14:13.032] I am, and then I'll comment on what this really smart person said.

75:38

[01 14:13.032 – 01:14:21.792] So in 1950...

75:39

[01 14:21.792 – 01:14:23.772] No, excuse me.

75:41

[01 14:23.772 – 01:14:29.202] Dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun.

75:42

[01 14:29.202 – 01:14:30.142] Find it in a second here.

75:45

[01 14:30.142 – 01:14:33.902] Um, one of the people that was involved with Dr.

75:50

[01 14:33.902 – 01:14:38.612] Kahn was a woman by the name of Betty Eisner.

75:56

[01 14:38.612 – 01:14:49.372] And Betty Eisner was a doctor and, um, um, uh, she wrote a letter to, in 1957,

76:03

[01 14:49.372 – 01:14:52.592] so it's right all in the same timeline.

76:08

[01 14:52.592 – 01:14:55.472] She's working with Kahn.

76:10

[01 14:56.484 – 01:15:04.184] Olson's working with Kong, and Gerald Heard, and Aldous Huxley, and Eugene Exman, and the Kongs.

76:18

[01 15:04.184 – 01:15:08.024] And, you know, I mean, this, there's this, there's this kind of play of people.

76:25

[01 15:08.024 – 01:15:15.064] And, and, uh, anyway, Betty wrote a letter to, to Jung and said, you know, "This is the work we're doing.

76:35

[01 15:15.064 – 01:15:23.244] This is what's up." "Dear Mrs.

76:38

[01 15:23.244 – 01:15:25.404] Eisner, thank you for your kind letter.

76:42

[01 15:25.404 – 01:15:36.064] Experiments along the line of mescaline and related drugs are certainly most interesting si- such drugs lay bare a level of the unconscious

76:53

[01 15:36.064 – 01:15:42.484] that is otherwise only accessible under peculiar psychic conditions.

76:58

[01 15:42.484 – 01:15:52.484] It is a fact that you get certain perceptions and experiences of things appearing either in mystical states or in the analysis

77:08

[01 15:52.484 – 01:16:01.544] of unconscious phenomena, just like the primitives in their orgiastic or intoxicated conditions.

77:15

[01 16:01.544 – 01:16:03.764] I don't feel happy about these things.

77:19

[01 16:03.764 – 01:16:13.944] Since you merely fall into

77:21

[01 16:13.944 – 01:16:22.774] such experiences without being able to integrate them, the result is a sort of theosophy, but it's not a moral and mental acquisition.

77:33

[01 16:22.774 – 01:16:32.264] It is the eternally primitive man having experience of his ghost land, but it is not an achievement of your cultural development.

77:43

[01 16:32.264 – 01:16:41.004] To have so-called religious visions of this kind has more to do with physiology, but nothing with religion.

77:52

[01 16:41.004 – 01:16:46.404] It is only that men- m- mental phenomena are observed.

77:57

[01 16:46.404 – 01:16:51.564] One can compare these to similar images in ecstatic conditions.

78:02

[01 16:51.564 – 01:17:01.644] Religion is a way of life, and a devotion and submission to certain superior facts, a state of mind

78:11

[01 17:01.684 – 01:17:06.524] which cannot be injected by a syringe or swallowed in the form of a pill.

78:19

[01 17:06.524 – 01:17:16.864] It is, to my mind, a helpful method to the barbarous peyote, but regrettable regression to the cultivated individuals,

78:28

[01 17:16.864 – 01:17:21.964] a dangerously simple ersatz and substitute for a true religion.

78:33

[01 17:21.964 – 01:17:31.664] Sincerely yours." So the way that I would piggyback on this is, is that it is not sustainable.

78:42

[01 17:31.664 – 01:17:36.824] Um, well, what do you mean by that, Stinnitt?

78:46

[01 17:36.824 – 01:17:44.884] Well, there were 100 million hits of LSD produced in 1969 alone.

78:51

[01 17:44.884 – 01:17:48.124] Say half of them got lost.

78:55

[01 17:48.124 – 01:17:54.044] So there's 50 million experiences that happened.

78:58

[01 17:54.044 – 01:17:57.864] This particular laboratory was in, uh, was in Belgium.

79:03

[01 17:57.864 – 01:18:06.704] If that spirituality was sustainable, would we be living in the world we're living in today?

79:10

[01 18:06.704 – 01:18:16.804] So, um, and the fact is, is that I probably know

79:16

[01 18:16.804 – 01:18:26.984] at least 100 people that have tried ayahuasca or similar things and,

79:22

[01 18:26.984 – 01:18:32.164] uh, um, a couple of them with, with medical supervision.

79:27

[01 18:32.164 – 01:18:37.144] Um, you know, I, uh...

79:29

[01 18:37.144 – 01:18:40.973] Regarding, you know, PTSD and all those things, I, I...

79:34

[01 18:40.973 – 01:18:49.384] You know, that's an outside issue and I, uh, I won't, I won't comment to that except saying that I'm really glad for anything that actually helps people.

79:48

[01 18:49.384 – 01:18:55.824] However, there isn't an alcoholic that can't come up with an excuse for PTSD.

79:55

[01 18:55.824 – 01:19:01.354] I mean, if you would've seen some of the things that I woke up in with in the '70s .

80:04

[01 19:01.354 – 01:19:05.224] But I digress.

80:06

[01 19:05.224 – 01:19:12.844] Um, but I don't know, what, what...

80:10

[01 19:12.844 – 01:19:23.094] I, I love the fact that, that, that Jung calls it an ersatz experience,

80:17

[01 19:23.094 – 01:19:24.384] which means it's fake.

80:19

[01 19:24.384 – 01:19:28.444] It's, it, it, it's masked as, as truth, but it's not true.

80:25

[01 19:28.444 – 01:19:38.724] Because the reports that come back

80:29

[01 19:38.724 – 01:19:46.044] are, um, people...

80:30

[01 19:46.044 – 01:19:51.784] Anybody who has one of these unitive experiences goes through an evangelical phase.

80:37

[01 19:51.784 – 01:19:56.864] And in the psychedelic experience, one of the things that you see is there is no good or evil.

80:46

[01 19:56.864 – 01:20:03.264] So alcohol cannot be evil.

80:49

[01 20:03.264 – 01:20:07.124] So these people in AA have it wrong.

80:53

[01 20:07.124 – 01:20:10.434] I need to go and tell them.

80:57

[01 20:10.434 – 01:20:17.224] So it separates them from the group.

81:00

[01 20:17.224 – 01:20:24.104] Now, I've had both types.

81:03

[01 20:24.104 – 01:20:34.684] I've, I've, I've, I've experienced the grace of a, of a, of a, a sudden experience, and I'd had

81:12

[01 20:34.684 – 01:20:45.084] many years previous a, a, a heroic journey, but that journey that I was on

81:20

[01 20:45.084 – 01:20:52.344] didn't provide true unity.

81:22

[01 20:52.344 – 01:21:02.534] This, this consciousness of the creator, the created knowing

81:27

[01 21:02.534 – 01:21:03.124] the creator.

81:28

[01 21:03.124 – 01:21:13.164] So, um, I'm all for people doing things that help, you know.

81:34

[01 21:13.164 – 01:21:18.984] Um, um, I'm 100% for that, and I'm not a fan of psycho-tourism.

81:40

[01 21:18.984 – 01:21:30.324] All

81:41

[01 21:30.324 – 01:21:30.624] right.

81:42

[01 21:30.624 – 01:21:31.584] Thank you, Jay.

81:44

[01 21:31.584 – 01:21:34.664] Thank you, Sandy, and everyone else for your questions.

81:48

[01 21:34.664 – 01:21:40.924] I'm not seeing any other hands raised, so I will, uh, go ahead and allow everyone to unmute.

81:57

[01 21:40.924 – 01:21:42.044] And thank you, Jay.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

Concsious Contact presented by Jay S – 2025-03-11

Concsious Contact presented by Jay S – 2025-03-11

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