bobbie b presented by gary n – 2025-07-15

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Unknown Tuesday Night History Workshop • 2025

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Unknown Listen to Workshop Recording

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Unknown ABOUT THIS WORKSHOP

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Unknown gary n speaking on "bobbie b" in Tuesday Night History Workshop (July 15, 2025). This recording is preserved in high-fidelity with interactive scrolling transcripts.

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Unknown Interactive Transcript

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[00 00:02.919 – 00:00:06.599] Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop.

0:15

[00 00:06.599 – 00:00:09.720] Thank you everyone for joining us tonight.

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[00 00:09.720 – 00:00:17.359] My name is Tim, and tonight we have a great presentation led by Gary N., author of the Bobbi B.

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[00 00:17.359 – 00:00:20.359] book, and will be presenting Bobbi B.

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[00 00:20.359 – 00:00:21.960] and the Traditions.

0:30

[00 00:21.960 – 00:00:27.120] We meet every Tuesday night at the same time and at the same Zoom ID number.

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[00 00:27.120 – 00:00:31.280] And next week we are going to have Nancy K.

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[00 00:31.280 – 00:00:36.700] and a few of her friends that went to Vancouver for the International.

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[00 00:36.700 – 00:00:42.219] They will be sharing next week about their experience and, uh, everything that went on there.

0:50

[00 00:42.219 – 00:00:48.799] So join us again next week to hear about, uh, the International in Vancouver.

0:55

[00 00:48.799 – 00:00:52.439] And this meeting is being recorded.

0:58

[00 00:52.439 – 00:01:00.539] The audio from tonight's presentation, as well as all of our past presentations, can be found at recoveryspeakers.com.

1:05

[00 01:00.539 – 00:01:11.019] This meeting is not affiliated with any 12-step organization, although our goal is to focus on the history of AA and other 12-step

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[00 01:11.019 – 00:01:11.680] fellowships.

1:14

[00 01:11.680 – 00:01:21.760] Recovery Speakers is dedicated to preserving and making the audio history of AA and the 12-step

1:20

[00 01:21.760 – 00:01:25.799] movement available for everyone today and in the future.

1:23

[00 01:25.799 – 00:01:33.939] We share a daily email that features a different speaker talk from the Recovery Speakers audio library.

1:29

[00 01:44.040 – 00:01:48.340] info@recoveryspeakers.com and I will get you added to our list.

1:34

[00 01:48.340 – 00:01:55.400] And Recovery Speakers is an official 501[c]3 public charity.

1:37

[00 01:55.400 – 00:02:05.120] If you are able to, we accept contributions which allow us to continue our work, and I have shared in the chat the link to our, uh, donation page.

1:48

[00 02:05.120 – 00:02:15.139] And for tonight, for Gary's presentation, if anyone has questions for Gary, um, please write them down and be prepared to ask questions at the end of the

1:58

[00 02:15.139 – 00:02:15.560] meeting.

1:58

[00 02:15.560 – 00:02:19.000] And that is it for me.

2:01

[00 02:19.000 – 00:02:28.780] I am going to go ahead and turn it right over to Gary, and, uh, looking forward to learning more about Bobbi B.'s involvement in the development of the traditions.

2:12

[00 02:28.780 – 00:02:33.159] Okay, here.

2:13

[00 02:33.159 – 00:02:34.939] What just happened?

2:14

[00 02:34.939 – 00:02:36.300] Here we go.

2:16

[00 02:36.300 – 00:02:39.819] All right.

2:17

[00 02:39.819 – 00:02:41.460] I'm, uh, Gary.

2:18

[00 02:41.460 – 00:02:43.400] I'm an alcoholic, and...

2:20

[00 02:43.400 – 00:02:47.740] If I can get this together here.

2:23

[00 02:47.740 – 00:02:51.340] Can, uh, everybody, uh...

2:24

[00 02:51.340 – 00:02:58.120] Here we go.

2:26

[00 02:58.120 – 00:02:59.840] All right, I'm Gary.

2:27

[00 02:59.840 – 00:03:05.340] I'm an alcoholic, and before we get, uh, before we get started, I, I do have a bit of an announcement.

2:35

[00 03:05.340 – 00:03:15.340] My wife and I were driving around, running around, uh, doing errands, uh, oh, maybe, uh, 10 days ago and so forth, and a fellow by the name

2:45

[00 03:15.340 – 00:03:25.400] of Brian Koch, who's been, uh, r- investigating, uh, grave sites for many, many years, a- and, uh,

2:51

[00 03:25.400 – 00:03:29.000] um, we, uh, my wife and I got the, uh...

2:55

[00 03:29.000 – 00:03:39.300] My cell phone rang, and the announcement, uh, came from Brian, and he goes, "I found Bobbi." Well, I can tell you that 10 years ago when this project

3:05

[00 03:39.300 – 00:03:48.289] originally got started, uh, we had no clue of what actually became of, uh, Bobbi after she passed.

3:12

[00 03:48.289 – 00:03:58.300] And Brian was able to come up and do some detective work, which was, uh, difficult because of the, uh, as it

3:20

[00 03:58.300 – 00:03:59.939] turned out, misspelling errors.

3:21

[00 03:59.939 – 00:04:10.259] If you were looking for Margaret Burger, you weren't ever gonna find her because even in the record of the, uh, cemetery in which her, her remains are,

3:32

[00 04:10.259 – 00:04:13.199] her first name is misspelled in the cemetery records.

3:35

[00 04:13.199 – 00:04:23.240] But anyway, he was able to overcome that, and we now know that she, her remains are with her first husband in, uh, the Cypress Hills Cemetery

3:45

[00 04:23.240 – 00:04:27.360] in Brooklyn, New York, which is about six miles from 182 Clinton Street.

3:49

[00 04:27.360 – 00:04:33.740] And believe me, my wife and I were just thrilled, and, uh, we'll be getting pictures of this.

3:56

[00 04:33.740 – 00:04:42.418] Brian is headed there, uh, on the 28th of, uh, July, and it's, uh, with, uh, uh...

4:02

[00 04:42.418 – 00:04:52.480] It's, it's very symbolic that she should be remembered with a, um, you know, with AA tokens re- uh, uh, just like, uh, anybody

4:11

[00 04:52.480 – 00:04:55.629] else did, but no one ever knew how to do that until now.

4:16

[00 04:55.629 – 00:05:02.060] So, uh, again, the, uh, how we remember that those, th- those that went before, it's...

4:21

[00 05:02.060 – 00:05:12.120] I love what we do in AA because we, we remember those that made contributions, and, um, I'm, uh, I'm so pleased to be a part of that.

4:31

[00 05:12.120 – 00:05:12.699] Bobbi B.

4:32

[00 05:12.699 – 00:05:15.100] and the traditions.

4:34

[00 05:15.100 – 00:05:17.800] How her letters revealed the need for group guidance.

4:37

[00 05:17.800 – 00:05:23.180] She was learning from Bill while sharing with him pertinent contents of the incoming mail.

4:43

[00 05:23.180 – 00:05:27.360] She became a conduit for the thoughts and experiences of the groups.

4:47

[00 05:27.360 – 00:05:34.220] Sometimes there was no choice but to get Bill involved, other times, uh, she handled it herself.

4:54

[00 05:34.220 – 00:05:44.279] Now, just in case there's somebody new that's in the, uh, that doesn't know who Bobbi was, this was B- Bill Wilson's tribute,

5:02

[00 05:44.279 – 00:05:48.680] Grapevine tribute, to Bobbi, which it will function as an introduction here.

5:06

[00 05:48.680 – 00:05:58.399] "Margaret B., affectionately known throughout AA as Bobbi, passed away in her sleep on February 17, 1953 of an unforeseen heart ailment.

5:14

[00 05:58.399 – 00:06:08.420] She had headed our general service office in New York in all years of AA's adolescence, that exciting but fearsome period when no one could tell for

5:23

[00 06:08.420 – 00:06:12.519] sure whether or not our fledgling society would survive or not.

5:28

[00 06:12.519 – 00:06:22.660] Across her desk came thousands of pleas for help from individuals, and hundreds from growing but anxious groups who wanted to be advised of the latest AA

5:37

[00 06:22.660 – 00:06:25.800] experience in meeting the problems that assailed them.

5:40

[00 06:25.800 – 00:06:29.939] It was out of this experience that AA's tradition was formed.

5:45

[00 06:29.939 – 00:06:38.379] And upon our tradition, her devoted labor set a mark which will endure so long as God will have our society last.

5:53

[00 06:38.379 – 00:06:40.269] Her pioneering work has proved an in-

5:55

[00 06:40.473 – 00:06:50.593] inspiring precedent for every intergroup and foundation secretary, and her departure creates in the heart of each of her friends a void which can only be filled by

6:05

[00 06:50.593 – 00:06:55.713] the memory of what she left us and the assurance that her destiny is happy and secure.

6:12

[00 06:55.713 – 00:06:59.283] The need for group guidance discussed.

6:14

[00 06:59.283 – 00:07:09.493] Now, the date here which is of interest is the introduction of the 12 suggested points for AA traditions, which is April

6:22

[00 07:09.493 – 00:07:11.433] of 1946.

6:22

[00 07:11.433 – 00:07:21.493] Almost all the correspondence that's shared that was written by Bobbie precedes April of 1946, some by four years,

6:29

[00 07:21.493 – 00:07:27.753] and many of those letters have not been shared previously, um, until this time.

6:34

[00 07:27.753 – 00:07:29.073] And they're not in ...

6:36

[00 07:29.073 – 00:07:32.773] Many of them are, are, are, are, uh, not in the Bobbie book.

6:41

[00 07:32.773 – 00:07:35.273] B- but it, it ...

6:42

[00 07:35.273 – 00:07:45.333] And, you know, with over, uh, 1,000 letters, I was limited to 190, and this presentation allows me to share some of the material that I couldn't share

6:52

[00 07:45.333 – 00:07:45.872] before.

6:52

[00 07:45.872 – 00:07:48.573] The need for group guidance discussed.

6:55

[00 07:48.573 – 00:07:50.993] This is Bobbie writing in September 26.

6:57

[00 07:50.993 – 00:07:55.623] "Thanks so much for your letter of September 22nd." I'm skipping for a moment.

7:02

[00 07:55.623 – 00:08:04.793] "The reason for this boils down to one fact, that we as yet have no set national policy to cover these important activities in AA.

7:12

[00 08:04.793 – 00:08:14.973] If you get the A- the Gr- uh, Grapevine, you will have noticed that Bill is beginning to discuss many of these questions in his monthly articles.

7:21

[00 08:14.973 – 00:08:25.093] He hopes that through this medium to promote serious thinking with an end in view of accomplishing national policies acceptance acceptable to all."

7:30

[00 08:25.093 – 00:08:35.113] And the same letter continued, "Bill for the last two years has felt the need of putting our experience into writing, and in this mind, he has started an

7:40

[00 08:35.113 – 00:08:38.343] outline of a new book." Now that paints a question.

7:44

[00 08:38.343 – 00:08:45.453] Does the outline of the new book end up being all the way, uh, with the 12 and 12 in 1952?

7:50

[00 08:45.453 – 00:08:46.973] This was in 1945.

7:52

[00 08:46.973 – 00:08:50.493] Does the 12 and 12 go back that far?

7:54

[00 08:50.493 – 00:08:52.513] And, and, and that is a question.

7:57

[00 08:52.513 – 00:08:54.513] I don't know, but she, I ...

8:00

[00 08:54.513 – 00:08:58.653] Obviously Bill didn't come up with any book until the 12 and 12.

8:04

[00 08:58.653 – 00:09:02.093] "It may be several years before this is finished," before we ...

8:08

[00 09:02.093 – 00:09:09.473] And which there was, "which was constantly getting more experience and new ideas on so many vital questions of AA.

8:15

[00 09:09.473 – 00:09:15.033] In the meantime, I think you will get a line on the way things are going by reading the articles in the Grapevine.

8:24

[00 09:15.033 – 00:09:23.353] Of course, in the last analysis, no matter what policies are adopted, each local group will have the right to interpret them as they see fit.

8:33

[00 09:23.353 – 00:09:31.233] They have the same right to do this as the individual member has with the 12 steps." There we have a former owner just there in during tradition four.

8:43

[00 09:31.233 – 00:09:41.573] But also on December 5, now this is April, April, but I just had to include this because it's so fundamental to actually how the traditions came

8:52

[00 09:41.573 – 00:09:42.093] about.

8:53

[00 09:42.093 – 00:09:49.093] "You see, we do not make policies and traditions and ask the groups to follow those.

8:59

[00 09:49.093 – 00:09:52.113] AA works the opposite way.

9:01

[00 09:52.113 – 00:10:02.173] The groups, by their experiences over a period of years, develop policies and traditions." It is true that the traditions

9:08

[00 10:02.173 – 00:10:10.073] came out of the correspondence that was coming into the, uh, Alcoholic Foundation of the GSO.

9:14

[00 10:10.073 – 00:10:16.213] It was not because Bill had nothing better to do and he came up with this, uh, bunch of rules.

9:21

[00 10:16.213 – 00:10:23.253] This was a result of practical experiences of what was happening to them, what they were reading, and what they were sharing.

9:29

[00 10:23.253 – 00:10:33.793] Now, the need for group guidance, what follows is a very approximate reordering of the traditions which reflects the order in which the subject were discussed

9:39

[00 10:33.793 – 00:10:36.873] in Bobbie's letters responding to the fellowship.

9:42

[00 10:36.873 – 00:10:39.813] And believe me, this is not an exact science.

9:45

[00 10:39.813 – 00:10:45.633] Letters in the future may be encountered which might reorder some of her responses presented here.

9:51

[00 10:45.633 – 00:10:53.113] But also, two letters from Bill are included for a particularly thorny issue that required his attention.

9:57

[00 10:53.113 – 00:10:55.713] One has not appeared here before.

10:00

[00 10:55.713 – 00:11:05.903] On the third tradition, now again, this is what we call the long form, which is really the original form, and I'm not gonna read every bit of the, uh, third tradition

10:11

[00 11:05.903 – 00:11:12.153] i- uh, uh, as, uh, it appears in the, uh, in the long form, in the, uh, original form.

10:18

[00 11:12.153 – 00:11:17.433] But our membership ought to include all those who suffer alcoholic, from alcoholism.

10:23

[00 11:17.433 – 00:11:20.793] And here we have March 9th of 1942.

10:26

[00 11:20.793 – 00:11:30.933] Well, Bobbie started work, um, one week, uh, before this officially as national secretary, but what I think you're gonna see is

10:33

[00 11:30.933 – 00:11:32.173] that she's awfully ...

10:35

[00 11:32.173 – 00:11:36.273] She writes very well, uh, and she's ...

10:38

[00 11:36.273 – 00:11:46.313] And had to have been working together with Ruth Hock and Bill for some time prior to her, uh, taking on the responsibilities of succeeding

10:47

[00 11:46.313 – 00:11:48.883] Ruth on, uh, March 2nd of 1942.

10:49

[00 11:48.883 – 00:11:51.363] But you can see, uh, this is Mr.

10:52

[00 11:51.363 – 00:11:53.013] W, Columbus, Ohio.

10:54

[00 11:53.013 – 00:12:00.013] "The only requirement for membership in AA is a sincere desire to stop drinking, and it does not matter in which road is taken.

11:02

[00 12:00.013 – 00:12:10.453] There are many different approaches which all ultimately arrive at the same end, sobriety with the help of a higher power." This is, uh, a- another letter on tradition

11:13

[00 12:10.453 – 00:12:10.713] three.

11:13

[00 12:10.713 – 00:12:13.643] D- this is September 11th in 1942.

11:16

[00 12:13.643 – 00:12:21.753] "Dear Arnold of Buffinwell in New York, we'll have to wait a little longer to have answers to your questions on rules, formations, and functions of groups.

11:25

[00 12:21.753 – 00:12:32.373] All of this will be in the handbook, the first chapter of which has been written and is good." I don't believe there was any pr- practical result of that handbook, but it, it's been mentioned

11:38

[00 12:32.433 – 00:12:37.113] a, a number of times as it was a project, but I don't believe it was ever completed.

11:45

[00 12:37.113 – 00:12:46.653] "When we first planned this book, Bill thought it could be dashed off in short order, but the information that has come in from the groups demands a more carefully written book.

11:56

[00 12:46.653 – 00:12:52.373] Bill feels that it should be well done once and for all." One more on tradition three.

12:03

[00 12:52.373 – 00:12:55.653] Uh, d- this is to Scotty of Cincinnati, Ohio.

12:06

[00 12:55.653 – 00:12:59.803] "Congratulations on the fine handling of the delicate situation.

12:09

[00 12:59.803 – 00:13:07.173] Since I have been in this office, there have been several incidents in other groups similar to one you have just gone through in Cincinnati," which is a split.

12:20

[00 13:07.173 – 00:13:17.253] "In most of these cases, the feeling of resentment has prevailed for a while, and I feel that you are averting this just this by your open-minded and tolerant attitude to the

12:31

[00 13:17.253 – 00:13:18.453] so-called seceders.

12:32

[00 13:18.453 – 00:13:20.663] After all, AA is not bound by-"

12:35

[00 13:20.774 – 00:13:23.094] By on any ironclad rules.

12:37

[00 13:23.094 – 00:13:27.794] For some groups feel that, uh, more rigid rules should be laid down for members.

12:43

[00 13:27.794 – 00:13:37.894] However, you can always refer to the forward in our large book, Alcoholics Anonymous, in which it is clearly states that the only requirement for membership is an a desi- honest

12:54

[00 13:37.894 – 00:13:39.734] desire to stop drinking.

12:56

[00 13:39.734 – 00:13:49.964] And just in case, if there's somebody here that is, you know, relatively new to AA, this is the kind of obstacles that we're being run into in terms of whether or not membership

13:08

[00 13:49.964 – 00:13:54.864] was, uh, uh, k- uh, whether someone could become a member of AA.

13:12

[00 13:54.864 – 00:14:01.434] This is out of Little Rock, Arkansas, and it was just their requirements for a while were, uh, listed here.

13:20

[00 14:01.434 – 00:14:06.864] The four questions: Are you in your own mind convinced that you cannot handle your alcoholic problems?

13:26

[00 14:06.864 – 00:14:13.394] Are you willing to let a group of fellows who have the same problems prescribe a course of treatment for you?

13:34

[00 14:13.394 – 00:14:18.854] Are you willing to do anything to eliminate alcohol entirely from your life?

13:38

[00 14:18.854 – 00:14:22.534] Four, do you believe in a power greater than just, than the power of man?

13:44

[00 14:22.534 – 00:14:29.354] And if the prospect could not answer yes to all four in the affirmative, he was told to come back when and if he could.

13:53

[00 14:29.354 – 00:14:39.574] The fourth tradition, with respect to its own affairs, each AA group should be responsible to no other authority than its own

14:01

[00 14:39.574 – 00:14:40.494] consciousness.

14:02

[00 14:40.494 – 00:14:47.494] But when plans concern the welfare of the neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be fully consulted.

14:08

[00 14:47.494 – 00:14:54.014] And so here we have March 20th, which is a proposal to raise the minimum sum of $3,000.

14:14

[00 14:54.014 – 00:14:59.104] Again, now she's, uh, been on, uh, on the job for a little, uh, more than two and a half weeks.

14:22

[00 14:59.104 – 00:15:06.654] There've been a very large volume of correspondence with newly formed and medium-sized groups still going through their growing pains.

14:29

[00 15:06.654 – 00:15:15.194] As every AA knows, innumerable questions rise in these stages, which due to lack of personal contact, sometimes can be answered only by mail.

14:38

[00 15:15.194 – 00:15:22.554] In these letters, we attempt to tell the new group the experiences which the older ones have had with like problems.

14:46

[00 15:22.554 – 00:15:26.873] Thus, we act as a clearing house for information on such matters.

14:50

[00 15:26.873 – 00:15:32.794] Though the central office rarely interferes in local group affairs.

14:54

[00 15:32.794 – 00:15:34.554] Another one from...

14:55

[00 15:34.554 – 00:15:40.274] This is another one from, uh, involving Cincinnati, Ohio, September 26 in 1945.

15:00

[00 15:40.274 – 00:15:45.834] We, as of yet, have no set national policy to cover these important activities in AA.

15:05

[00 15:45.834 – 00:15:51.154] If you get the Grapevine, you will have noticed Bill has been beginning to discuss many of these questions.

15:12

[00 15:51.154 – 00:15:58.854] In the last analysis, no matter what policies are adopted, each local group will have the right to interpret them as they see fit.

15:21

[00 15:58.854 – 00:16:03.034] They have the same right to do as the individual members have with the 12 steps.

15:27

[00 16:03.034 – 00:16:09.054] One more, January 15th in 1946, to dear Vic of Middleton, Connecticut.

15:31

[00 16:09.054 – 00:16:17.414] As far as the groups locally are concerned, we always urge them to do what they think will bring the best results for their committees.

15:40

[00 16:17.414 – 00:16:27.634] If the WTIC Hartford local broadcasts give you good results, I certainly agree you should keep them up, and we too are very grateful for the executives of this station

15:50

[00 16:27.634 – 00:16:28.854] for their cooperations.

15:52

[00 16:28.854 – 00:16:39.114] On the 10th tradition, and this will be a review for some of the people that have been, uh, are familiar with the Bobbie book, but it's such a, um, important

16:03

[00 16:39.114 – 00:16:45.514] facet of, uh, tradition 10 that again, I, I, I've in- included most of it, uh, here.

16:09

[00 16:45.514 – 00:16:48.694] And of course, it's, this is just personal.

16:12

[00 16:48.694 – 00:16:49.454] The, the...

16:13

[00 16:49.454 – 00:16:51.974] I don't know where the long form came up.

16:16

[00 16:51.974 – 00:16:53.674] I- probably named by Bill.

16:19

[00 16:53.674 – 00:17:02.634] It's, but it's, it, this truly is the, uh, ca- uh, it really is the original form, uh, uh, the original form of the traditions.

16:28

[00 17:02.634 – 00:17:12.654] No AA group or member should ever in such a way to implicate AA express any opinion on outside controversial issues, particularly those of p- uh, politics,

16:37

[00 17:12.654 – 00:17:16.454] alcoholic reform, or secutari- sectarian religion.

16:40

[00 17:16.454 – 00:17:19.014] Some of you will have seen this before.

16:43

[00 17:19.014 – 00:17:29.074] This is again prior to, uh, anything like tradition 10, but it's the i- the atmosphere of the times of, uh, March of 1942 when

16:51

[00 17:29.074 – 00:17:33.134] we have the AA pledge for national defense and self-preservation.

16:55

[00 17:33.134 – 00:17:40.173] And ju- just, uh, reading these, "I will keep myself fit physically, mentally, spiritually to be ready for any crisis.

17:02

[00 17:40.173 – 00:17:50.134] To discipline myself for strength, I will go about my business with a clear e- eye, a cool head, and a stout heart, neither scared by wild rumors or deluded by false security.

17:14

[00 17:50.134 – 00:17:56.674] I will help build my town as a wholesome, balanced community, because if all communities are sound, America will be sound.

17:22

[00 17:56.674 – 00:18:07.374] I will work for unity among all our people and oppose efforts to create hatred based on race, creed, or color." This was in, uh, again, in, uh, new- the newspapers

17:33

[00 18:07.374 – 00:18:09.184] in, uh, March of 1942.

17:34

[00 18:09.184 – 00:18:18.074] And also, AA's cooperation with the war effort, uh, and another example of AA without tradition 10.

17:40

[00 18:18.074 – 00:18:26.534] And through, uh, 1943 through 1945, Bobbie repeatedly encouraged Warren of the Kaiser Shipyards in Richmond, California.

17:46

[00 18:26.534 – 00:18:30.054] The company listened to him to be a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.

17:50

[00 18:30.054 – 00:18:32.234] There was no anonymity in that case.

17:53

[00 18:32.234 – 00:18:36.014] The AA Richmond group openly helped keep employees sober.

17:57

[00 18:36.014 – 00:18:38.714] The effort was reported to have saved 44 man-years.

18:00

[00 18:38.714 – 00:18:44.434] At DuPont, an AA member was con- confidentially employed as being a member of the personnel department.

18:06

[00 18:44.434 – 00:18:46.354] All drunks were routed to him.

18:08

[00 18:46.354 – 00:18:52.074] AA reprinted 1,000 copies of two employers with the purpose of assisting the war effort.

18:14

[00 18:52.074 – 00:18:59.714] So tradition 10 and The Empty Jug, which i- was a publication out of Chattanooga, Tennessee.

18:19

[00 18:59.714 – 00:19:00.934] Carl K.

18:20

[00 19:00.934 – 00:19:06.144] got sober after some false, uh, false starts on July 18th in 1944.

18:25

[00 19:06.144 – 00:19:14.794] He founded an AA, a four-page newspaper in September 1944 in Chattanooga when he had six weeks of sobriety.

18:31

[00 19:14.794 – 00:19:16.034] What could go wrong with that?

18:34

[00 19:16.034 – 00:19:18.294] Seriously offended when Bill W.

18:36

[00 19:18.294 – 00:19:22.734] declared the Grapevine to be the official magazine of AA in October of 1945.

18:41

[00 19:22.734 – 00:19:25.614] No evidence of Carl ever had a sponsor.

18:44

[00 19:25.614 – 00:19:31.614] Bobbie repeatedly encouraged Carl to practice anonymity in his newspaper, but he ignored her recommendation.

18:49

[00 19:31.614 – 00:19:33.654] She often advised Carl's home group.

18:52

[00 19:33.654 – 00:19:39.294] Despite Bobbie's reason, uh, uh, repeated attempts, Carl simply disregarded her words.

18:56

[00 19:39.294 – 00:19:41.574] This led to Bill getting involved.

18:59

[00 19:41.574 – 00:19:46.154] This is a kind of sample of what was being published in The Empty Jug at this time.

19:05

[00 19:46.154 – 00:19:48.094] Let's get this untangled.

19:07

[00 19:48.094 – 00:19:49.274] Yes, we know these things.

19:09

[00 19:49.274 – 00:19:55.574] If we took a drink, too many drinks or too many drug, drinks too many times, we would know what would happen beforehand.

19:17

[00 19:55.574 – 00:20:00.994] But teenage boys and girls do not know these things, and they are not told that by the liquor ind-

19:25

[00 20:01.115 – 00:20:10.595] Advertising or various mediums of expressions such as motion pictures, radio magazines, most of which had various t- tie-ins with the liquor industry.

19:33

[00 20:10.595 – 00:20:13.725] So why is Hollywood so interested in liquor?, so he says.

19:37

[00 20:13.725 – 00:20:23.795] And this is where Bill Wilson gets involved, and it, it shows that Bill Wilson, a very conciliatory one in this first letter,

19:45

[00 20:23.795 – 00:20:25.195] uh, that we're gonna read.

19:47

[00 20:25.195 – 00:20:26.715] "Thank you for your long letter.

19:50

[00 20:26.715 – 00:20:32.615] My first thought about it is that you and Bob and I ought to get better acquainted." Skipping down.

19:57

[00 20:32.615 – 00:20:42.775] "In fact, if you knew me better, if you could see I'm not what you think I am, you would see that I, like yourself, am just one more fallible alcoholic trying

20:08

[00 20:42.775 – 00:20:43.395] to get along.

20:10

[00 20:43.395 – 00:20:47.695] You might see yourself as an able newspaperman with almost no A.A.

20:14

[00 20:47.695 – 00:20:48.355] experience.

20:15

[00 20:48.355 – 00:20:57.215] You would see me as a person with no newspaper experience, but nevertheless, one who knows the national pulse of A.A., that of course, if anybody knows it.

20:26

[00 20:57.215 – 00:21:03.255] Truly your idea that the Empty Jug is a competitive medium never occurred to any of us here.

20:32

[00 21:03.255 – 00:21:10.215] That you regard it as a competitor in circulation, prestige, or authority came as a surprise." I'm skipping to the bold.

20:40

[00 21:10.215 – 00:21:20.315] "You can see that we have reached the point of our development where we have to have a periodical which will reflect our national conscious art and mind.

20:50

[00 21:20.315 – 00:21:25.545] Newspapers such as yours, which largely reflect your pro- viewpoint after one years of A.A.

20:56

[00 21:25.545 – 00:21:34.235] experience could hardly be expected to accomplish these ex- objectives, especially with you in Chattanooga and our headquarters in New York." Skipping.

21:04

[00 21:34.235 – 00:21:42.915] "When I sent out the bulletin expressing the hope that the Grapevine would become our national medium, I was merely declaring something that had already become fact.

21:13

[00 21:42.915 – 00:21:48.155] For months, we have been receiving letters containing this as a suggestion." Skipping to the bold.

21:19

[00 21:48.155 – 00:21:54.555] "A tradition of anonymity, right or wrong, means a great deal to the majority of A.A.s.

21:26

[00 21:54.555 – 00:22:03.875] Barring a few justifiable exceptions, groups would like to see this tradition preserved." There we have an, a, a forerunner of the, the, the 12th tradition.

21:35

[00 22:03.875 – 00:22:06.295] "It's also a powerful tradition that A.A.

21:38

[00 22:06.295 – 00:22:13.255] groups have one aim only: to help the sick alcoholic." So there's a for- forerunner to the fifth tradition.

21:45

[00 22:13.255 – 00:22:23.295] "It is felt that we should never express an opinion of any controversial as- matter, such as politics, religion, or prohibition, et cetera." So there

21:54

[00 22:23.295 – 00:22:26.065] we have the pr- preview of the 10th tradition.

21:58

[00 22:26.065 – 00:22:33.195] These are ideas that were open and going long before the, uh, April of 1946.

22:03

[00 22:33.195 – 00:22:39.005] "And strictly therefore, it was no surprise that we received scores of complaints about the Empty Jug." Skipping.

22:09

[00 22:39.005 – 00:22:49.024] "Under these circumstances, you can w- see why the groups did not regard the Empty Jug as a national medium." Skipping down to the last paragraph in the

22:20

[00 22:49.024 – 00:22:49.995] interest of time.

22:21

[00 22:49.995 – 00:22:53.355] "Ple- but please remember that no one is a prophet.

22:25

[00 22:53.355 – 00:23:03.804] The rest of us may be wrong, and you may be right, but meanwhile, we shall have to be guided by a collective sense of tradition that has evolved up to date,

22:36

[00 23:03.804 – 00:23:03.804] s-".

22:37

[00 23:03.804 – 00:23:09.995] So unfortunately, Carl paid li- very little attention to that, and here was his response.

22:42

[00 23:09.995 – 00:23:12.435] "How far does tolerance go?

22:44

[00 23:12.435 – 00:23:22.475] The Empty Jug has been criticized severely on the ground that the paper has showed intolerant tendencies on several subjects and has therefore taken on the characteristics of a prohibition

22:55

[00 23:22.475 – 00:23:23.185] publication.

22:56

[00 23:23.185 – 00:23:33.255] Much of this criticism has come because openly we have shown distinct disapproval of the underhanded methods of the liquor industry in advertising its products to the

23:06

[00 23:33.255 – 00:23:33.615] public.

23:06

[00 23:33.615 – 00:23:39.875] Is tolerance supposed to be fair and equitable consideration of the honorable and conscientious viewpoints of others?

23:13

[00 23:39.875 – 00:23:49.875] Or is it supposed to be a cloak of hypocrisy under which protagonists of deception and debauchery can function with immunity?" So this time, Bill, i- in

23:22

[00 23:49.875 – 00:23:54.995] this letter, o- only a few paragraphs of this letter are in the Bobbie book.

23:28

[00 23:54.995 – 00:24:04.995] Back then when it was published, I had to make a decision of how long the book would take, and as a judgment call, I did not include this entire

23:38

[00 24:04.995 – 00:24:08.355] letter, but I thought this being the time to do it.

23:43

[00 24:08.355 – 00:24:11.995] "Dear Carl," this is again November 14th of 1945.

23:46

[00 24:11.995 – 00:24:15.055] "I just finished reading the last Empty Jug.

23:49

[00 24:15.055 – 00:24:24.995] As a work of good newspaperman, it is excellent as always, but I feel deeply concerned about your unexplained insistence upon publishing controversial material.

23:58

[00 24:24.995 – 00:24:35.875] While I would be the first to defend your legal right to print what you please, I nevertheless question very seriously the usefulness of your attacks on the liquor people and your general disposition

24:10

[00 24:35.875 – 00:24:39.125] to blast away on topics that are not in the least concerned to A.A.

24:15

[00 24:39.125 – 00:24:39.575] as a whole.

24:17

[00 24:39.575 – 00:24:41.815] Take a hy- hypothetical case.

24:19

[00 24:41.815 – 00:24:46.515] Suppose, for example, that I'm invited to speak before a meeting of several thousand A.A.s.

24:25

[00 24:46.515 – 00:24:54.615] Right then, I bitterly attack, let's say, the wets, the motion picture industry, the advertising business, or the good measure, communist Russia.

24:33

[00 24:54.615 – 00:24:57.055] Would I ever be invited to speak again?

24:36

[00 24:57.055 – 00:24:58.255] Of course not.

24:37

[00 24:58.255 – 00:25:08.815] Would it be of any defense of my conduct if I then sat on my rights of free speech and said, 'After all folks, these are only one man's opinion.' There surely would be no answer under the circumstances.

24:52

[00 25:08.815 – 00:25:16.575] All A.A.s would be shocked to see me turning propagandist, to see me giving away to angry denunciation of sins of other people.

25:01

[00 25:16.575 – 00:25:18.915] Nearly everybody would be scared too.

25:03

[00 25:18.915 – 00:25:21.875] They would consider my attitude a threat to A.A.'s self.

25:08

[00 25:21.875 – 00:25:26.355] They would feel that I had no more right to enter my personal views at such a time and place.

25:15

[00 25:26.355 – 00:25:31.455] They would regard me as a disturber of our internal peace and a real menace to our public relations.

25:22

[00 25:31.455 – 00:25:35.795] They would fear my setting a precedent that w- could encourage every contentious A.A.

25:27

[00 25:35.795 – 00:25:38.455] to unburden himself anywhere, anytime.

25:29

[00 25:38.455 – 00:25:42.335] No, Carl, they would not invite me to speak again, and they would be right.

25:35

[00 25:42.335 – 00:25:43.635] Now take your case.

25:37

[00 25:43.635 – 00:25:46.535] The Empty Jug is nothing less than a monthly A.A.

25:41

[00 25:46.535 – 00:25:48.595] meeting in which you are the principal speaker.

25:44

[00 25:48.595 – 00:25:50.515] You describe yourself as an A.A.

25:47

[00 25:50.515 – 00:25:51.675] talking to A.A.s.

25:49

[00 25:51.675 – 00:25:59.655] Your meeting has an attendance of many hundreds, including wives and friends that expect A.A., but you disappoint them by barring your perfectly good A.A.

25:58

[00 25:59.655 – 00:26:03.845] discourse with a powerful denunciation of something or somebody.

26:02

[00 26:03.845 – 00:26:06.565] By all means, Carl, keep up your good w- A.A.

26:06

[00 26:06.565 – 00:26:06.945] work.

26:07

[00 26:06.945 – 00:26:13.115] Go on with your paper, but I beg of you, please don't use the Empty Jug to fight anybody or anything.

26:14

[00 26:13.115 – 00:26:14.095] That is not A.A.

26:16

[00 26:14.095 – 00:26:17.895] It is the hell's broth that will only burn you and the rest of us in the end.

26:23

[00 26:17.895 – 00:26:25.875] And I can somehow convince you, can I somehow convince you that this strong letter is ju- not just one man's opinion.

26:31

[00 26:25.875 – 00:26:30.815] I'm sure that practically all the A.A membership would agree with it in principle.

26:37

[00 26:30.815 – 00:26:34.675] Another point, the trustees of the Alcoholic Foundation are becoming concerned.

26:41

[00 26:34.675 – 00:26:36.675] They would like, at all costs, to keep A.A.

26:45

[00 26:36.675 – 00:26:41.345] out of the wet dry controversy, and they do not wish to see you, even when y-

26:51

[00 26:41.470 – 00:26:46.941] your best of intention doing things with the Empty Jug which would land us in the middle of the endless conflict.

26:58

[00 26:46.941 – 00:26:50.621] The trustees also question the use of the group list.

27:02

[00 26:50.621 – 00:26:54.171] The names and addresses on it were supplied to the foundation to be used for A.A.

27:08

[00 26:54.171 – 00:26:56.441] purposes only, and in confidence.

27:11

[00 26:56.441 – 00:27:01.141] The list was never intended for commercial or propaganda purposes, however good.

27:15

[00 27:01.141 – 00:27:07.121] Every attempt t- to so use the list has brought sar- sharp reaction from the groups.

27:21

[00 27:07.121 – 00:27:08.721] Publishers have tried to sell books.

27:23

[00 27:08.721 – 00:27:11.341] An emblem manufacturer once offered us A.A.

27:26

[00 27:11.341 – 00:27:12.361] buttons, and A.A.

27:28

[00 27:12.361 – 00:27:16.161] flooded us with religious tracts representing one man's point of view.

27:32

[00 27:16.161 – 00:27:18.751] We are subjected, and how.

27:34

[00 27:18.751 – 00:27:19.911] So did the trustees.

27:36

[00 27:19.911 – 00:27:23.041] Suppose presently that some Republican A.A.

27:39

[00 27:23.041 – 00:27:34.701] uses the group list to denounce all Democrats and Communists." I find that very interesting that that sentence appears in Tradition Four of the, uh, 12x12,

27:48

[00 27:34.701 – 00:27:41.901] uh, that came out in 1953, but that's where he used it, and that showed up again eight years after it was written here.

27:57

[00 27:41.901 – 00:27:52.081] "Suppose that in other decades that beers and wines are fine for everybody but alcoholics, so he uses the group list to dilute just with bre- brewer propaganda,

28:07

[00 27:52.081 – 00:27:53.801] chastising bigoted drys.

28:08

[00 27:53.801 – 00:27:54.781] Suppose an A.A.

28:10

[00 27:54.781 – 00:27:59.681] commences to tell us what religion is truly the real one, that all the others are false.

28:16

[00 27:59.681 – 00:28:04.381] What possible good would that sort of thing do to A.A., or for that matter, anybody?

28:22

[00 28:04.381 – 00:28:05.961] And where might it leave us?

28:25

[00 28:05.961 – 00:28:07.321] No A.A.

28:26

[00 28:07.321 – 00:28:11.381] could possibly have a moral right to express himself in such a fashion.

28:31

[00 28:11.381 – 00:28:21.421] Expert newspaperman that you are, I am astonished that you would seem oblivious to the fact you are doing this very sort of thing yourself, and that the propagation of your personal views on this liquor

28:44

[00 28:21.421 – 00:28:29.581] trades up- still appears more important to you than the general welfare and safety of A.A., the spiritual fellowship which has given you a new lease of life.

28:54

[00 28:29.581 – 00:28:31.611] While wide open to a genuine A.A.

28:57

[00 28:31.611 – 00:28:35.281] newspaper, and I mean by that a paper that is A.A.

29:02

[00 28:35.281 – 00:28:45.121] and nothing but A.A., our confidential group list is certainly not a proper sounding board for the continuous private opinion or propaganda of anyone, no matter who or how good.

29:13

[00 28:45.121 – 00:28:49.660] Please, Carl, do you understand that this letter is not intended to offend you personally?

29:18

[00 28:49.660 – 00:28:53.301] Everybody who has met you holds you in highest regard, and so do I.

29:24

[00 28:53.301 – 00:28:56.230] For months, the central office and other of your A.A.

29:28

[00 28:56.230 – 00:29:01.041] friends have been trying their best to persuade you that you may be making a very serious mistake.

29:34

[00 29:01.041 – 00:29:05.601] I am only adding my voice to theirs with all the earnestness at, uh, my command.

29:40

[00 29:05.601 – 00:29:14.641] As matters stand, we are drifting towards an impasse which may need to be resolved by a national referendum on the question of your editorial policy for the Empty Jug.

29:51

[00 29:14.641 – 00:29:17.661] So the minds of many A.A.s, the matter is becoming that serious.

29:56

[00 29:17.661 – 00:29:19.821] So Carl, let us drift no more.

29:59

[00 29:19.821 – 00:29:20.721] What do you say?

30:01

[00 29:20.721 – 00:29:23.421] Bobbie tells me you were thinking of a trip to New York.

30:05

[00 29:23.421 – 00:29:24.501] That would be wonderful.

30:07

[00 29:24.501 – 00:29:27.981] If we could actually talk together, I'm sure all would be well.

30:11

[00 29:27.981 – 00:29:39.561] It would be much better if you change your Empty Jug policy because you really wanted to, rather than under protest, as was the case in the matter of anonymity as always."

30:23

[00 29:39.561 – 00:29:41.251] That didn't shut him down.

30:25

[00 29:41.251 – 00:29:42.541] And this is from the Empty Jug.

30:28

[00 29:42.541 – 00:29:50.581] "Rumors we place l-" This is March of 1946, right, uh, before the 12 suggested points of A.A.

30:34

[00 29:50.581 – 00:29:51.501] traditions came out.

30:35

[00 29:51.501 – 00:29:58.021] "Rumors we place little credence," and this is Carl, uh, "that are being wr- written in New York.

30:42

[00 29:58.021 – 00:30:08.621] We do place credence in the rumor that New York is preparing a manual for group organization." Somehow that's what Carl thought was going to be presented as, uh,

30:52

[00 30:08.621 – 00:30:09.601] as the traditions.

30:54

[00 30:09.601 – 00:30:10.141] I won't ...

30:55

[00 30:10.141 – 00:30:12.701] For the in- interest of time, I'm gonna move on.

30:58

[00 30:12.701 – 00:30:15.260] This is what the Empty Jug actually looked like.

31:02

[00 30:15.260 – 00:30:24.321] And, uh, on this particular, um, Empty Jug, this is, this is where he really goes, he really went overboard.

31:09

[00 30:24.321 – 00:30:34.321] Um, but, uh, and in that, uh, newspaper article, if you go on the left-hand side of the

31:16

[00 30:34.321 – 00:30:40.541] column here, "In, in every instance, the New York office has blamed us because we took sides at all.

31:23

[00 30:40.541 – 00:30:45.621] Members of Alcoholics Anonymous, they smugly inform us, 'Do not take sides on anything.

31:28

[00 30:45.621 – 00:30:46.861] Do not argue.

31:29

[00 30:46.861 – 00:30:53.161] Do not take controversy.' There is nothing in the 12 Steps that says whether a member of A.A.

31:36

[00 30:53.161 – 00:30:57.041] should argue or, or not in print or out.

31:40

[00 30:57.041 – 00:31:00.901] There is nothing in the 12 Steps that says a member of A.A.

31:45

[00 31:00.901 – 00:31:03.841] has to be a fence straddler in print or not.

31:48

[00 31:03.841 – 00:31:07.061] There is nothing in the 12 Steps that says a member of A.A.

31:53

[00 31:07.061 – 00:31:17.201] has to submerge his identity in a program of namby-pamby, wishy-washy, middle of the road tactics on questions affecting his life and the lives of persons

32:03

[00 31:17.201 – 00:31:27.201] he loves." If there's ever been a requirement or the statements of why we need a traditions in this outfit, I have no better example than what we

32:13

[00 31:27.201 – 00:31:33.201] have here, because no, there is nothing that's said about certain subjects in the 12 Steps.

32:18

[00 31:33.201 – 00:31:35.401] Um, and boy did ...

32:20

[00 31:35.401 – 00:31:40.801] You know, so it's an example that traditions were, were, were truly lifesavers.

32:25

[00 31:40.801 – 00:31:51.121] And of course, um, Carl, uh, unfortunately was, uh, very soon to go to the great meeting in the sky, which ended that controversy.

32:33

[00 31:51.121 – 00:31:54.561] On the seventh tradition, "A.A.

32:36

[00 31:54.561 – 00:32:00.001] groups themselves ought to be fully self-supporting by the voluntary contributions of their own members.

32:41

[00 32:00.001 – 00:32:10.121] We think that each group should s- be achieve this ideals that any public s- solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is higher, highly dangerous."

32:51

[00 32:10.121 – 00:32:20.001] And I just put a comment here, many A.A.s may have no idea just how revolutionary self-support is for drunks.

32:59

[00 32:20.001 – 00:32:30.261] This is an example that in, uh, March 1 of 1942, if you look down at the last, um, line, "From outside

33:07

[00 32:30.261 – 00:32:40.301] donations to the Alcoholic Fo- Foundation," this was a March 1, 1942, uh, report, um, "$294.63." There

33:12

[00 32:40.301 – 00:32:50.321] were still some outside contributions going on as listed here, and of course, there were outside contributions coming from the, uh, the Rockefellers

33:20

[00 32:50.321 – 00:32:52.661] until, uh, at least 1945.

33:22

[00 32:52.661 – 00:33:01.361] But on the seventh tradition, February 2nd, this is to Dr., uh, Minogue of Sydney, Australia.

33:28

[00 33:01.361 – 00:33:03.581] "Groups are self-supporting.

33:29

[00 33:03.581 – 00:33:10.241] Most groups pass the hat at the meetings to pay for their local expenses like rent, heat, and other incidentals.

33:36

[00 33:10.241 – 00:33:12.421] No member every benefit ...

33:38

[00 33:12.421 – 00:33:15.341] No member ever benefits from these collections.

33:41

[00 33:15.341 – 00:33:18.041] Our work is entirely avocational.

33:43

[00 33:18.041 – 00:33:21.681] When a group is new and small, meeting places can often be found in pa-"

33:49

[00 33:21.811 – 00:33:23.462] public buildings without charge.

33:50

[00 33:23.462 – 00:33:31.842] Our central office in New York is supported by voluntary contributions of the members all over the country, which averages a dollar e- every year per member.

34:00

[00 33:31.842 – 00:33:39.962] This amount is adequate to pay for the secretarial help, rent, telephone, postage, and office supplies." More on the seventh tradition.

34:08

[00 33:39.962 – 00:33:42.422] This is also to, from, uh, to Dr.

34:11

[00 33:42.422 – 00:33:45.982] Minogue of Cindy, uh, uh, Sydney, Australia.

34:13

[00 33:45.982 – 00:33:55.922] "I hope all the members will realize that it is not necessary to contribute to this office until the Australian groups are on a sound basis themselves.

34:23

[00 33:55.922 – 00:34:05.022] We are here simply as a service office for everyone, and those groups which have been functioning for some time are now able to maintain their central office for the good of all.

34:35

[00 34:05.022 – 00:34:14.142] Someday the Australian groups will join with the others, but until the time comes that, uh, this can be done easily, we hope that you will forget all about it.

34:46

[00 34:14.142 – 00:34:18.292] How wise you are not to accept outside offers of financial assistance.

34:50

[00 34:18.292 – 00:34:26.782] We believe a stronger foundation can be built by growing slowly and only taking on these things which you can afford through self-support.

34:59

[00 34:26.782 – 00:34:36.842] The things you want, like club rooms, et cetera, will come in ti- uh, will come of that, I'm sure." Now, this is actually, uh, over the April,

35:09

[00 34:36.842 – 00:34:39.662] uh, 1946.

35:09

[00 34:39.662 – 00:34:46.082] This is May 15th, but I have a specific reason to, to include this, which you'll see in a minute.

35:17

[00 34:46.082 – 00:34:51.622] "The Alcoholics Foundation has finally come to a decision that much of our strength lies in self-support.

35:23

[00 34:51.622 – 00:34:58.102] In the past, they have accepted a few outside donations, but never of any great amount or real implied obligations.

35:30

[00 34:58.102 – 00:35:08.442] Today, they feel our membership is large enough to financially carry our obligations to them of national nature, and therefore setting an example of refusing outside donations."

35:40

[00 35:08.442 – 00:35:09.862] I'm gonna skip to the next page.

35:43

[00 35:09.862 – 00:35:19.952] "Perhaps back of all of this," this is why I concluded this, "back of all of this of thinking is the fact that for hundreds of years," this is Bobby writing, "the

35:54

[00 35:19.952 – 00:35:24.592] general public and society have felt that alcoholics were a charitable responsibility.

35:58

[00 35:24.592 – 00:35:30.062] Today, we are beginning to be able to give society a different viewpoint.

36:03

[00 35:30.062 – 00:35:40.262] We can figuratively say to them, 'Thanks for all you've done for us in the past when it was needed,' but we alcoholics of the present who have recovered

36:14

[00 35:40.262 – 00:35:45.782] now wish to repay you by helping other alcoholics and by taking care of ourselves.

36:20

[00 35:45.782 – 00:35:48.042] This is revolutionary.

36:21

[00 35:48.042 – 00:35:58.642] If your Pathfinder members decide to accept outside donations as being right for your group, I believe you would be wise in seeing that much contributions supply no association with controversial

36:32

[00 35:58.642 – 00:36:04.042] idea." So there's a 10, t- a tradition 10 warning, such as the wet/dry issue.

36:37

[00 36:04.042 – 00:36:06.202] I'll just move on.

36:39

[00 36:06.202 – 00:36:16.202] On the 12th tradition, there's, um, uh, this is, uh, September 10 of 1943, so we're, we're still, uh, uh, not quite,

36:46

[00 36:16.202 – 00:36:26.162] uh, well, more than two and a half years in front of the, uh, 12, uh, suggested points of AA tradition.

36:54

[00 36:26.162 – 00:36:28.542] "The 12th tradition.

36:55

[00 36:28.542 – 00:36:35.842] We of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the principles of anonymity are is an immense spiritual significance." I won't con- rather to read more of that.

37:04

[00 36:35.842 – 00:36:45.862] Dear Dan of Portland, Oregon, "So we are now, we will sh- do nothing to throw up a wall that will keep one man or woman out of, and that is exactly what personal publicity of a

37:17

[00 36:45.862 – 00:36:46.682] member can do.

37:18

[00 36:46.682 – 00:36:51.122] Naturally, names of outsiders who believe in Alcoholics Anonymous can be used.

37:23

[00 36:51.122 – 00:36:51.422] Dr.

37:24

[00 36:51.422 – 00:36:59.002] Harry Emerson Fosdick tells us continually when he speaks of Bill, he refers to him as a friend who has recovered, never by name.

37:32

[00 36:59.002 – 00:37:01.222] Reporters like the anonymity angle.

37:34

[00 37:01.222 – 00:37:09.702] Our names actually have no news value, and I have never known a paper editor or a reporter who refused to accept our anonymity policy once it was asked for.

37:45

[00 37:09.702 – 00:37:15.342] The Saturday Evening Post article used aliases as most other magazines and papers.

37:50

[00 37:15.342 – 00:37:23.462] Our anonymity is the protective shell for the newsmen, and it was started nine years ago by Bill and strengthened through the years by him and others.

38:00

[00 37:23.462 – 00:37:29.742] Just before Bill left for the Coast, he dictated a few paragraphs on the anonymity angle.

38:06

[00 37:29.742 – 00:37:40.022] Back of this was the fact that one of our members in the public office, ar- uh, the Army, made a series of talks in the papers and over the radio and used his own story

38:18

[00 37:40.022 – 00:37:40.961] as a foundation.

38:20

[00 37:40.961 – 00:37:45.942] Had he done this in the third person, it would've been all right, but he used the I method.

38:27

[00 37:45.942 – 00:37:48.362] Anyway, here's what Bill said on that subject.

38:30

[00 37:48.362 – 00:37:56.802] We will probably put this out in the bulletin forum someday." And I quote, "But before we do that, it's still ongoing." Excuse me.

38:39

[00 37:56.802 – 00:37:59.882] We don't know who that, uh, fellow was.

38:42

[00 37:59.882 – 00:38:10.792] That's one of the stories that will be, I hope somebody's gonna come up and say, "I know who that person is." Now,

38:50

[00 38:10.792 – 00:38:11.812] here we have Bill's words.

38:52

[00 38:11.812 – 00:38:16.142] "There's a growing tendency among AAs to forget their anonymity.

38:56

[00 38:16.142 – 00:38:24.462] In one way, it's very healthy that we no longer regard our alcoholism as a shameful sickness to be hidden from all, save other alcoholics.

39:05

[00 38:24.462 – 00:38:28.242] But there's another aspect of the matter which isn't perhaps so good.

39:09

[00 38:28.242 – 00:38:34.062] Numbers of us are being asked to speak and write on behalf of AA for public consumption.

39:16

[00 38:34.062 – 00:38:40.232] Here I feel some of us could be more discreet about the use of our names in print." This is still Bill.

39:24

[00 38:40.232 – 00:38:49.922] "If AAs commence giving personal interviews with names, they can scare off new prospects who are newspaper shy, while some may feel that these people are seeking personal publicity.

39:34

[00 38:49.922 – 00:38:57.562] Of course, any of us should be able to sign any kind of piece even about AA if it does not appear that the writer is an AA himself.

39:44

[00 38:57.562 – 00:39:07.822] And when speaking in an audience would in most cases be told the name of the speaker, but the newspaperman present will, for suggestion respect, our wish for anonymity." Back to Bobby.

39:56

[00 39:07.822 – 00:39:11.662] "None of the above is one bit of a personal feeling.

40:00

[00 39:11.662 – 00:39:16.202] Most of us oldsters have told our business and personal friends all about AA.

40:05

[00 39:16.202 – 00:39:21.362] The anonymity policy is for the good of all, the new people yet to come.

40:11

[00 39:21.362 – 00:39:27.842] Bill honestly feels that this policy to be right for AA, and so far it has proved him right.

40:18

[00 39:27.842 – 00:39:33.752] Go ahead and use all that outside names you want, saying these public-minded men endorse AA.

40:23

[00 39:33.752 – 00:39:37.582] But do, if possible, check on the use of any member's name.

40:28

[00 39:37.582 – 00:39:46.222] I know Bill will be grateful for being referred to simply as Bill, an early AA, or as one of the founders." More on the 12th tradition.

40:38

[00 39:46.222 – 00:39:56.122] This i- also gets back to Carl K., and this is, uh, this is, this is Bobby, uh, advising Carl back on October 26th of 1944.

40:47

[00 39:56.122 – 00:40:02.042] "I presume you have seen The Grapevine and have noticed that in it that nicknames and less initials are only used-

40:54

[00 40:02.823 – 00:40:13.053] Actually, our anonymity among ourselves means nothing in the group, most of it disregarded entirely, but within the general public with anything in print, we do try to adhere to the policy

41:06

[00 40:13.053 – 00:40:15.243] that Bill and the trustees established years ago.

41:09

[00 40:15.243 – 00:40:21.803] I know of several cases where people have definitely stayed away because the anonymity of a member was broken.

41:16

[00 40:21.803 – 00:40:32.002] Another reason Bill felt so long ago that we remain anonymous, at least to the public, is that he realized our strength lay in publicizing principles

41:25

[00 40:32.103 – 00:40:33.683] and not personalities.

41:27

[00 40:33.683 – 00:40:34.753] Those words, the, the...

41:28

[00 40:34.753 – 00:40:35.933] Does that sound familiar?

41:30

[00 40:35.933 – 00:40:42.283] On the eighth tradition by Bill: "Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional.

41:35

[00 40:42.283 – 00:40:50.863] We define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for fees or for hire." This is February 15th of 1944.

41:41

[00 40:50.863 – 00:40:51.583] "Dear A.

41:42

[00 40:51.583 – 00:41:01.933] of Long Beach, California, Surely our new Hawaii group could not be if we had not had a central headquarters to answer the first letter and to keep our mailing

41:53

[00 41:01.933 – 00:41:05.783] encouragement and group experiences over 6,000 miles.

41:56

[00 41:05.783 – 00:41:11.083] In the early days before the office, it took five years by word of mouth to get together 100 members.

42:03

[00 41:11.083 – 00:41:18.223] In 1941, at the time of the Saturday Evening Post article, this office took on several hundred inquiries a month.

42:09

[00 41:18.223 – 00:41:22.983] Last July and early August, we answered 1,500 in six weeks.

42:13

[00 41:22.983 – 00:41:31.183] Now we come to the stark truth: someone has to pay the incidental expenses of this offices, of this office, and who should?

42:22

[00 41:31.183 – 00:41:39.093] Would it have been right to go to the public and say, 'We alkies who are now recovered and working think the public should go on taking care of us'?

42:32

[00 41:39.093 – 00:41:44.803] There seemed only one answer, and that it was to ask the grateful members to contribute $1 a year.

42:39

[00 41:44.803 – 00:41:52.783] It figures, however, about $2 a year for those who that can and will do this, and to carry on the 12th step through one central place.

42:48

[00 41:52.783 – 00:41:56.523] As you know, Bill does not get one cent of these contributions.

42:53

[00 41:56.523 – 00:41:59.203] He is on record to never live on the alkies money.

42:57

[00 41:59.203 – 00:42:10.333] People that know about such things are amazed at the extremely low expenses of an office that services now 10 to 12,000 members." On

43:05

[00 42:10.333 – 00:42:16.223] the first tradition: "Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is part, part of a small great whole.

43:11

[00 42:16.223 – 00:42:16.543] A.A.

43:12

[00 42:16.543 – 00:42:25.283] must continue to live or most of us would surely die." This is, uh, June 7th of 1944 to a Dear Arnie of Buffalo, New York.

43:21

[00 42:25.283 – 00:42:28.373] "Thanks for the information about the Buffalo groups.

43:24

[00 42:28.373 – 00:42:31.063] I'll try to get a note of- off to Bill C.

43:28

[00 42:31.063 – 00:42:32.003] and Joe C.

43:30

[00 42:32.003 – 00:42:35.743] Split ups in groups do not worry us particularly.

43:33

[00 42:35.743 – 00:42:40.343] We find them healthy if some kind of overall cooperation can be maintained.

43:38

[00 42:40.343 – 00:42:44.483] I'm sure you and the other older members in Buffalo can smooth out the differences.

43:43

[00 42:44.483 – 00:42:54.713] Bobbie is functioning as a pa- as a peacekeeper between groups that split in Alcoholics Anonymous, one of her many additional roles, and here's one more." This one's

43:53

[00 42:54.713 – 00:43:02.803] is January 14th in 1944 to Dear Pat of Minneapolis, Minnesota, and this is about a split that occurred there.

44:00

[00 43:02.803 – 00:43:09.843] "The phase you people are now going through is a common one, but somehow I just never thought it would hit Minneapolis.

44:08

[00 43:09.843 – 00:43:11.163] But it is understandable.

44:10

[00 43:11.163 – 00:43:19.083] We do all huddle together when first joining A.A., and our common problem keeps us from holding forth too much as individual rights and ideas.

44:19

[00 43:19.083 – 00:43:26.483] After a couple years, we begin to relax and get confidence in ourselves, and the human element in our makeups come to the fore.

44:28

[00 43:26.483 – 00:43:30.303] And in any group of human beings, there are bound to be conflicting times.

44:33

[00 43:30.303 – 00:43:32.703] Who is to say who is right and who is wrong?

44:37

[00 43:32.703 – 00:43:35.903] Often it takes experiment and trial to settle this question.

44:41

[00 43:35.903 – 00:43:46.183] Of this, I feel sure, and my feelings are backed by the experiences of the same situation all over, that either this split is good and will prove to be help to both of you,

44:54

[00 43:46.183 – 00:43:53.923] or time will iron it out and you will be one happy family under the same roof again." More on the first tradition and another split.

45:03

[00 43:53.923 – 00:43:58.923] This one addre- addressed to Dear Bill of, uh, Cincinnati, Ohio.

45:07

[00 43:58.923 – 00:44:04.023] "We sense more than the usual differences of opinion in the split up of the Cincinnati A.A.s.

45:14

[00 44:04.023 – 00:44:07.843] Naturally, we recognize both groups, for you know we take no sides.

45:19

[00 44:07.843 – 00:44:14.623] However, I did write Scotty that I thought it was too bad the local differences of opinion had to be argued out in public.

45:27

[00 44:14.623 – 00:44:21.443] I think you can now be particularly helpful in staying friendly with both groups, more or less acting as a liaison.

45:35

[00 44:21.443 – 00:44:31.223] By refusing to take sides, you may be able to get both groups at least to show a unified front to outsiders." Again, there she is as a peace ma- maker.

45:46

[00 44:31.223 – 00:44:41.283] On the fifth tradition: "Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose, that of carrying its message to the

45:55

[00 44:41.283 – 00:44:44.983] alcoholic who still suffers." October 9th of 1944.

45:58

[00 44:44.983 – 00:44:55.023] "Dear Harold, Years ago, many of us felt that we could judge a man as hopeless or not, but after being wrong on 50% of the guesses, we are ready to admit that no one is

46:11

[00 44:55.023 – 00:44:57.203] ever hopeless, and maybe that A.A.

46:13

[00 44:57.203 – 00:45:00.723] can help them, but so long as he will try, so will we.

46:18

[00 45:00.723 – 00:45:10.843] Naturally, this doesn't mean that we will make it easy for the slippies, but we will certainly never turn them away when they come back sober and with a desire to try again."

46:30

[00 45:10.843 – 00:45:16.763] And another one on J- January, uh, 17th of 1946 on tradition five.

46:35

[00 45:16.763 – 00:45:17.883] "Dear, Dear Mrs.

46:36

[00 45:17.883 – 00:45:21.863] Spears of California, I believe this man is not an alcoholic.

46:40

[00 45:21.863 – 00:45:27.543] I think you have misunderstood us, for we honestly are not as smug as you make us sound.

46:47

[00 45:27.543 – 00:45:31.403] We have no quarrel with other wets or either wet- the wets or the drys.

46:52

[00 45:31.403 – 00:45:38.323] We purposely take no stand on any controversial subject for the simple reason we want to be available to everyone.

46:59

[00 45:38.323 – 00:45:43.953] Alcoholics Anonymous has but one aim: to help the sick alcoholic recover if he wishes.

47:05

[00 45:43.953 – 00:45:54.283] I think if you will read the pamphlets which I sent you on January 7th under a separate cover, you will get a clearer idea of what we are trying to do." On the second tradition,

47:18

[00 45:54.283 – 00:46:04.843] this is, uh, "For our group purpose, there is but one ultimate authority, a loving God as He may express Himself in our g- group conscience." February 7th to Dear Harold,

47:29

[00 46:04.843 – 00:46:06.603] uh, of Sacramento, California.

47:31

[00 46:06.603 – 00:46:14.903] "Actually, there's no harm in card playing when under control, but if you can solve this question of control, we will most be most grateful.

47:40

[00 46:14.903 – 00:46:19.203] Here in the New York office, we never advise or tell groups what to do.

47:45

[00 46:19.203 – 00:46:24.703] We simply compile the experience from all over the world and relay it to whatever it's worth to others.

47:52

[00 46:24.703 – 00:46:33.483] I think, as with all others who have questioned us, we have put this problem of card playing in the Sacramento group right back in the lap of its members.

48:03

[00 46:33.483 – 00:46:39.883] I'm sure there's a solution to it if we use common sense, patience, and the idea of live and let live.

48:10

[00 46:39.883 – 00:46:42.023] Of course, the greatest good for the great number..."

48:14

[00 46:42.503 – 00:46:44.284] Might have some bearing on the case.

48:17

[00 46:44.284 – 00:46:53.264] Tradition 11 in the long form are, "Relationships with the general public should be characterized by personal anonymity.

48:23

[00 46:53.264 – 00:46:54.063] We think A.A.

48:25

[00 46:54.063 – 00:46:56.173] ought to avoid sensational advertising.

48:27

[00 46:56.173 – 00:46:58.063] Our names and pictures of A.A.

48:30

[00 46:58.063 – 00:47:08.103] members ought not to be broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed." And this is an example of how attraction rather than promotion was active part of

48:39

[00 47:08.103 – 00:47:13.443] Bobbie's communication a year before the long form of the traditions was announced in the Grapevine.

48:44

[00 47:13.443 – 00:47:18.833] Here we have March 30th, 1945, uh, y- almost in exactly a year before.

48:49

[00 47:18.833 – 00:47:25.983] "Dear Tom of San Francisco, California, we are coming to believe that the publicity via radio is more advantageous to A.A.

48:57

[00 47:25.983 – 00:47:29.364] through attraction rather than the promotion angle.

49:00

[00 47:29.364 – 00:47:35.923] By this mean, we wonder if it's not better to have other people talk about us than to have us sponsor our own broadcasts.

49:09

[00 47:35.923 – 00:47:38.943] In those places where broadcasts have been given by A.A.

49:13

[00 47:38.943 – 00:47:47.583] groups, the general public usually feels that all A.A's are speaking, and it does not give someone an official sanction to whether or not it's used in the script.

49:24

[00 47:47.583 – 00:47:55.413] If broadcast is to come out of San Quentin, we believe it would be wise to have it sponsored by either Warden Duffy or the prison officials themselves.

49:34

[00 47:55.413 – 00:48:05.483] And inasmuch when we the word of this new idea on which we have no prev- previous experience, I think that San Francisco group might wish not to be tied up

49:45

[00 48:05.483 – 00:48:05.844] with it.

49:46

[00 48:05.844 – 00:48:12.864] I'm sure that it would be just effective if Warden Duffy or someone from the prison gave his views on just the progress of A.A.

49:55

[00 48:12.864 – 00:48:15.094] has made on the inmate members.

49:58

[00 48:15.094 – 00:48:25.143] It might even be possible to interview one or two of them, but the project should be under the sponsorship of the prison." Tradition 11, another example how attraction rather than

50:08

[00 48:25.143 – 00:48:27.804] promotion was an active part of Bobbie's communications.

50:11

[00 48:27.804 – 00:48:31.224] This is October 26th, in 1945, again, to Dr.

50:15

[00 48:31.224 – 00:48:33.663] Minogue of Sydney, Australia.

50:16

[00 48:33.663 – 00:48:42.103] "You speak of the necessity of having publicity man become a member, and I can imagine this could be a big help in directing news items into the right channels.

50:27

[00 48:42.103 – 00:48:51.204] However, it might interest you to know that we have never had a publicily, public, publicity director in our national headquarters in these 11 years.

50:36

[00 48:51.204 – 00:49:01.244] Our newspaperman said that we had over a million dollars' worth of publicity absolutely free, and all of it came to us by the method of attraction rather

50:46

[00 49:01.244 – 00:49:02.043] than promotion.

50:47

[00 49:02.043 – 00:49:12.063] I know of no time when we have deliberately gone out after publicity from a national viewpoint." There's no way I'm gonna be reading the sixth tradition long form,

50:57

[00 49:12.063 – 00:49:14.063] which is a long form.

50:59

[00 49:14.063 – 00:49:16.983] But in the short form, which I've included here, "An A.A.

51:04

[00 49:16.983 – 00:49:20.244] group, uh, never endorse, finance, or lend to A.A.

51:08

[00 49:20.244 – 00:49:30.983] any, or any related facility or outpri- outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose." This

51:16

[00 49:30.983 – 00:49:39.443] is actually the one example I could find of this, and it's right just at the time that the, uh, traditions were being published.

51:24

[00 49:39.443 – 00:49:40.344] This is, "Dear Mrs.

51:26

[00 49:40.344 – 00:49:50.784] Alford of San Francisco, California, thank you for your letter of March 29th telling us about the autobiographical novel entitled The Squirrel's Cage

51:35

[00 49:50.784 – 00:49:52.434] by George Terence Chambers.

51:36

[00 49:52.434 – 00:49:53.403] We know Mr.

51:38

[00 49:53.403 – 00:49:54.634] Chambers very well.

51:39

[00 49:54.634 – 00:49:56.304] His story's an interesting one.

51:41

[00 49:56.304 – 00:50:06.983] Last year, when Prentice Hall published September Remember by Elliot Tainter, a pseudonym for one of our members that wished to adhere to our anonymity policy for all members,

51:52

[00 50:06.983 – 00:50:09.344] we were asked to recommend or sponsor this book.

51:55

[00 50:09.344 – 00:50:17.184] The matter was seriously considered by the trustees of the Alcoholic Foundation and Bill Wilson, one of the originators of A.A.

52:03

[00 50:17.184 – 00:50:21.603] After serious deliberation, they felt that they could not do this.

52:07

[00 50:21.603 – 00:50:32.123] They had never sponsored or affiliated Alcoholics Anonymous with any organization, society, or work, no matter how merited, and they continued to feel that they should not."

52:17

[00 50:32.123 – 00:50:38.443] So Tradition Six, such cooperation ought never go out so far as affiliation or endorsement.

52:22

[00 50:38.443 – 00:50:46.324] And last but not least, we have the ninth tradition, the tradition that became the beginning of the end for Bobbie's career.

52:30

[00 50:46.324 – 00:50:51.094] "Each group needs to be, have the least possible organization.

52:34

[00 50:51.094 – 00:50:53.623] Rotating leadership is best.

52:36

[00 50:53.623 – 00:50:56.244] The small group may elect its secretary.

52:39

[00 50:56.244 – 00:51:06.264] The large group, its rotating committee." Now, for the life of me, I don't know why the short form of the tradition does not include such an

52:48

[00 51:06.264 – 00:51:12.804] important principle as rotation, but it, but it doesn't, but the long form does.

52:54

[00 51:12.804 – 00:51:17.103] Bobbie's letter dated December 9 of 1942.

52:56

[00 51:17.103 – 00:51:27.423] Now, this is with regards to rotation of groups, and that's why this sounds as if it's a bit out of sequence, but rotation at,

53:05

[00 51:27.423 – 00:51:37.724] um, the, um, s- central office at the GSO at the Alcoholic Foundation was never a concern or never written about

53:12

[00 51:37.724 – 00:51:39.224] by Bobbie in the first place.

53:15

[00 51:39.224 – 00:51:45.963] So I, I've included this example that she is advocating rotation at the group level.

53:20

[00 51:45.963 – 00:51:52.804] "Thanks so much for writing so fully on what may be your last official letter in here." I guess Ray was going to be rotating off.

53:30

[00 51:52.804 – 00:51:59.003] "However, we hope that you will keep on writing anytime you feel like, and even after you drop the title of secretary.

53:38

[00 51:59.003 – 00:52:07.284] Think you are wise to keep a rotating plan and changing committee members every once in a while." Skipping to the bull, bold, uh, the capitals here.

53:47

[00 52:07.284 – 00:52:15.463] While the principles of rotation was introduced in Cleveland, Ohio, Bobbie was recommending rotation of members throughout A.A.

53:54

[00 52:15.463 – 00:52:19.563] early on in her role as Natio- National Secretary.

53:58

[00 52:19.563 – 00:52:20.733] But rotation at A.A.

54:00

[00 52:20.733 – 00:52:22.703] headquarters was not considered.

54:01

[00 52:22.703 – 00:52:24.824] There was no one to rotate with.

54:04

[00 52:24.824 – 00:52:29.403] A.A.'s explosive growth, 1945 to 1949.

54:07

[00 52:29.403 – 00:52:35.684] Some of you will recognize this slide, which comes from the previous, uh, presentation.

54:12

[00 52:35.684 – 00:52:44.264] You know, again, everything in this period from 1945 to 1949 roughly goes up r- r- uh, almost four or five times.

54:19

[00 52:44.264 – 00:52:47.244] And what, uh, is pertinent here, employees at the A.A.

54:23

[00 52:47.244 – 00:52:53.554] headquarters in 1945, there were six, with Bobbie being the only A.A., and employees at the A.A.

54:30

[00 52:53.554 – 00:52:56.313] headquarters in 1949 were 18 or 20.

54:32

[00 52:56.313 – 00:53:00.423] And there were three people that were working under Bobbie in 1949.

54:36

[00 53:00.423 – 00:53:05.983] A.A.'s explosive growth, 1945 to 1949.

54:38

[00 53:05.983 – 00:53:09.963] While Alcoholics Anonymous was growing by two-thirds a year, so was the incoming mail.

54:43

[00 53:09.963 – 00:53:16.434] It was highly probable that Bobbie was writing essentially the same thing over and over again to newcomers and new groups.

54:51

[00 53:16.434 – 00:53:22.693] The need for a set of principles that could be mimeographed rather than typed every time in retrospect seems more-

54:58

[00 53:22.870 – 00:53:24.370] More than an obvious need.

55:00

[00 53:24.370 – 00:53:32.150] Thus, the traditions may originally have been viewed as a meeting the needs of the Alcoholic Foundation more than the needs of the fellowship.

55:09

[00 53:32.150 – 00:53:36.530] Many members did not see the need for these written guidelines.

55:13

[00 53:36.530 – 00:53:45.170] However, over time the fellowship realized that unless they followed the traditions, their meetings often failed or became miserably ineffective.

55:20

[00 53:45.170 – 00:53:53.670] But the ideas, again at the re- rotation of the Alcoholic Foundation, had not been a consideration until the rapid growth ame- commenced.

55:29

[00 53:53.670 – 00:54:03.810] "AA leadership is becoming a rotating matter," and "AA to function by fundamental principles." These are two Grapevine articles that were written by Bill in

55:38

[00 54:03.810 – 00:54:05.750] late in 1947.

55:39

[00 54:05.750 – 00:54:11.070] Times have changed, and everyone knows AA has since exceeded our wild expectations.

55:44

[00 54:11.070 – 00:54:12.250] Speaking for Dr.

55:45

[00 54:12.250 – 00:54:17.750] Bob and myself, we feel that we oldsters need not take prominent roles as we once did.

55:51

[00 54:17.750 – 00:54:22.100] AA leadership is becoming happily and healthily a rotating matter.

55:55

[00 54:22.100 – 00:54:30.570] Then we have AA may be able to function upon these, both these Grapevir- under articles were in October of 1947.

56:02

[00 54:30.570 – 00:54:40.850] AA may be able to function upon the power of its own fundamental principles rather than upon the prestige or inspira- inspiration of a highly personalized leadership, thus the whole

56:13

[00 54:40.850 – 00:54:43.470] can become a transcending importance over any part.

56:16

[00 54:43.470 – 00:54:52.370] Continued unity and succession can then mostly depend upon God as we understand him working vitally in the thousands of hearts rather than a few.

56:25

[00 54:52.370 – 00:54:57.320] Bobbie's observations in January of 1948.

56:27

[00 54:57.320 – 00:55:02.790] Bill is struggling, and underneath all my agreement, I realize his wisdom.

56:32

[00 55:02.790 – 00:55:10.610] AA must one day learn to operate with Bill, and he hopes to see the structure go into effect while he is around.

56:40

[00 55:10.610 – 00:55:21.210] Does Bobbie recognize at when she's writing this that she was actually part of the necessity for rotation to take place with staff members

56:49

[00 55:21.210 – 00:55:24.450] at the, uh, g- at the Alcoholic Foundation?

56:52

[00 55:24.450 – 00:55:29.870] However, with Bobbie having written these words, did she recognize it?

56:56

[00 55:29.870 – 00:55:33.950] AA's must, must learn to operate without her.

56:59

[00 55:33.950 – 00:55:44.110] Did she re- start to realize that the principle of rotation was meant her re- leading role was, uh, in jeopardy?

57:07

[00 55:44.110 – 00:55:47.930] Letter from Tommy Y of the AA Grapevine to Bill W.

57:11

[00 55:47.930 – 00:55:57.150] "My conclusions regarding the Grapevine undoubtedly reflect my personal opinion that making careers out of AA can be dangerous to both the individuals and to AA.

57:20

[00 55:57.150 – 00:56:08.070] While some people might be able to do this without harm to themselves while performing great service to AA," as Bobbie did, "the greater number who could not do so suggest the need for establishment

57:33

[00 56:08.070 – 00:56:10.130] of this policy as a future safeguard.

57:36

[00 56:10.130 – 00:56:20.290] I know that you have thought through your reorgani- organization plans to prevent the pr- prevent the development of a bureaucracy in AA and the creation of po-

57:46

[00 56:20.290 – 00:56:22.170] positions of personal power.

57:47

[00 56:22.170 – 00:56:32.790] As an individual AA, I also think that more widely the policies of anonymity in office, rotation in office, principle over person, and service over a career,

57:57

[00 56:32.790 – 00:56:42.950] it can be applied to all AA activities, the safer the future of the movement will be." Bobbie, of course, had been signing most of her correspondence with her first and last name for all those years.

58:10

[00 56:42.950 – 00:56:50.150] The Grapevine practiced anonymity and the rotation from its inception as an all-volunteer group.

58:15

[00 56:50.150 – 00:56:55.770] Until the late 1940s, there was no one at the New York AA headquarters qualified to rotate with Bobbie.

58:22

[00 56:55.770 – 00:57:01.990] Charlotte L was qualified by 1948, but she left with her husband on October 1948.

58:27

[00 57:01.990 – 00:57:06.330] Women more mature in business and management, such as Marian W.

58:31

[00 57:06.330 – 00:57:11.090] and Helen B., were not present until the late '40s, 1940s.

58:36

[00 57:11.090 – 00:57:13.130] Did Bobbie feel that she was being demoted?

58:39

[00 57:13.130 – 00:57:18.190] Bobbie asked for a $7,500 annual salary during March of 1949.

58:42

[00 57:18.190 – 00:57:22.030] There's no proof yet found whether the salary request was approved.

58:47

[00 57:22.030 – 00:57:24.150] This may have been a factor in her relapse.

58:50

[00 57:24.150 – 00:57:30.790] A justifiable hypothe- hypothesis is that Bobbie saw the handwriting on the wall.

58:55

[00 57:30.790 – 00:57:36.610] She knew her role at headquarters was ending, and that her prestigious responsibilities were to be diminished.

59:01

[00 57:36.610 – 00:57:41.990] She voluntarily resigned on June 13th, 1949, having relapsed.

59:04

[00 57:41.990 – 00:57:48.930] And I can't help but saying progress sometimes does not come without unintended consequences.

59:09

[00 57:48.930 – 00:57:59.390] In any case, rotating staff positions at he- AA headquarters has helped Alcoholics Anonymous consistently practice principles over personalities.

59:16

[00 57:59.390 – 00:58:07.080] One must consider that this wisdom was implemented inadvertently in an unfortunate manner when it applied to Bobbie.

59:23

[00 58:07.080 – 00:58:12.970] Memory of her was prone to misinterpretation as the years went and memories faded.

59:28

[00 58:12.970 – 00:58:23.030] Nevertheless, as AA has just celebrated its 90th anniversary, our understanding should be crystal clear that our very lives in

59:35

[00 58:23.030 – 00:58:31.510] recovery are the direct results of courageous experimentation, which led to the formation of AA's 12 traditions.

59:41

[00 58:31.510 – 00:58:41.660] She pioneered sharing the spiritual results of these experiments by providing the essential correspondence across the fellowship of how

59:48

[00 58:41.660 – 00:58:43.850] alcoholics could recover together.

59:50

[00 58:43.850 – 00:58:48.530] Thank you very much for this opportunity to present this story.

59:54

[00 58:48.530 – 00:58:53.630] Thank you, Gary.

59:55

[00 58:53.630 – 00:58:54.490] Great job.

59:57

[00 58:54.490 – 00:58:56.940] And now we have some time for questions.

60:00

[00 58:56.940 – 00:59:03.410] If anyone has a question for Gary, please raise your hand, and I will call on you to ask your questions.

60:07

[00 59:03.410 – 00:59:06.190] And first up is Carl.

60:09

[00 59:06.190 – 00:59:07.170] You can unmute.

60:11

[00 59:07.170 – 00:59:09.310] Thank you, Tim.

60:12

[00 59:09.310 – 00:59:10.850] My name's Carl, and I'm an alcoholic.

60:15

[00 59:10.850 – 00:59:12.690] Gary, uh, what an incredible job.

60:17

[00 59:12.690 – 00:59:13.810] Extensive as usual.

60:19

[00 59:13.810 – 00:59:22.950] Uh, you know, before you, I think, uh, other than in Australia, Bobbie Burger was a pretty well un- unknown personality.

60:26

[00 59:22.950 – 00:59:32.430] What, what was it that piqued your interest to get you so involved that you've done this incredible job in digging up this incredible, incredible person?

60:36

[00 59:32.430 – 00:59:32.640] Thank you.

60:37

[00 59:32.640 – 00:59:34.190] Well, thank you, Carl, for that question.

60:39

[00 59:34.190 – 00:59:37.850] And, you know, and I will respond, no amount of planning can ever replace dumb luck.

60:45

[00 59:37.850 – 00:59:47.850] I mean, you know, basically, you know, I was asked to do AA's, uh, uh, history in Georgia, uh, at the

60:53

[00 59:47.850 – 00:59:49.590] International 10 years ago.

60:54

[00 59:49.590 – 01:00:00.050] And so I started doing homework in January of 1945, and when I went down to Macon, Georgia, um, where our archives are,

61:02

[01 00:00.050 – 01:00:02.970] I came across a notebook which our delegate had asked-

61:06

[01 00:03.231 – 01:00:13.291] for, uh, back in 1993, and this, uh, a notebook, uh, was filled with the correspondence that originated in

61:13

[01 00:13.291 – 01:00:18.551] Georgia and the corresponding responses that came back from, uh, New York.

61:17

[01 00:18.551 – 01:00:23.811] And the first thing I did was make a catalog of it and to see what, um...

61:23

[01 00:23.811 – 01:00:28.711] And, you know, to put in, also organize it so it could be in chronological sequence.

61:29

[01 00:28.711 – 01:00:36.321] And I kept on coming across this name of Margaret Bobby, Margaret Berger, and I for one had never heard of her.

61:37

[01 00:36.321 – 01:00:46.911] And there's turned out to be so much correspondence that came from her, and in much of my presentation that was done at, uh, at the International,

61:47

[01 00:46.911 – 01:00:50.011] um, it turned out to be it came from her.

61:51

[01 00:50.011 – 01:00:59.831] That just sort of like piqued my curiosity, and I just ki- kept on looking around, um, and trying to collect more letters.

61:59

[01 00:59.831 – 01:01:06.851] And occasionally, I ran into obstacles that, um, that somehow this was a forbidden subject.

62:05

[01 01:06.851 – 01:01:13.751] Somehow there was information that the family did not want, um, her story told.

62:10

[01 01:13.751 – 01:01:23.011] Now, that might have to do with unfortunate her, what, with how she actually died, which was not by a heart, heart ailment, but she took her own life.

62:20

[01 01:23.011 – 01:01:33.071] Um, but, um, I, I, the fact that some people were obstacles or were, in some regards made me even more

62:28

[01 01:33.071 – 01:01:34.191] curious.

62:29

[01 01:34.191 – 01:01:44.451] Um, but then, um, uh, I, uh, uh, decided after, uh, by 2019 that I had enough material to build

62:36

[01 01:44.451 – 01:01:49.491] to go to the, uh, make four trips to, uh, New York to, to the GSO.

62:41

[01 01:49.491 – 01:01:55.691] And w- I did three to the GSO and one Stepping Stones to, you know, to collect information.

62:48

[01 01:55.691 – 01:02:05.831] And it, uh, this just turned out, um, that that's where I ended up collecting 1,000, uh, letters from the, the, the GSO

62:56

[01 02:05.831 – 01:02:09.051] and, uh, also the letters that were found in Macon, Georgia.

63:00

[01 02:09.051 – 01:02:19.180] But then the treasure chest, uh, when the COVID showed up in March of, uh, 2020, um, I thought I was gonna be running out of material.

63:09

[01 02:19.180 – 01:02:29.180] That's when necessity was the mother of inv- invention, and that's when I came across the treasure chest that was found in New York, and that's where the personal side of Bobbie's, uh,

63:21

[01 02:29.180 – 01:02:30.481] came from.

63:22

[01 02:30.481 – 01:02:40.591] Letters that had been kept by one of her son, son-in-laws, and it turned out I received over 700 letters, uh, that had no one had seen for,

63:32

[01 02:40.591 – 01:02:43.391] um, over 70 years.

63:33

[01 02:43.391 – 01:02:53.531] And, and that turns out to be much on the personal side of, uh, uh, uh, Bobbie as well, and that's what's fill- filled out the story and made, uh,

63:44

[01 02:53.531 – 01:02:56.281] the personal side of what Bobbie went through.

63:47

[01 02:56.281 – 01:02:59.680] And most of what we did today was obviously from the GSO.

63:52

[01 02:59.680 – 01:03:03.571] But the, the, the, but that's, that's how it came about, Carl.

63:56

[01 03:03.571 – 01:03:14.001] It just literally, um, I, I said yes to a service opportunity, which led me to be have given the opportunity of presenting at the International,

64:06

[01 03:14.001 – 01:03:17.781] which I never knew I was archivist for Area 16.

64:09

[01 03:17.781 – 01:03:21.611] And saying yes to service is what brought me here tonight.

64:13

[01 03:21.611 – 01:03:28.991] Thank you for the question, Carl, and thank you, Gary.

64:17

[01 03:28.991 – 01:03:30.671] And next up is Chris.

64:19

[01 03:30.671 – 01:03:31.571] You can unmute.

64:20

[01 03:31.571 – 01:03:40.851] Thank you, Tim, and thank you so much, Gary, for a really thorough and, and des- well-deserved presentation on Bobbie Berger.

64:28

[01 03:40.851 – 01:03:47.851] You know, it's, it's only been, um, here at Recovery Speakers that I've, uh, become aware of Bobbie Berger.

64:35

[01 03:47.851 – 01:03:49.451] I'd never heard of her.

64:37

[01 03:49.451 – 01:03:59.631] Uh, why do you think AA itself, uh, has not done a better job of, of telling our own history, uh, and especially with a, such a significant figure

64:48

[01 03:59.631 – 01:04:03.351] who played such a crucial role at a crucial time as Bobbie?

64:52

[01 04:03.351 – 01:04:13.821] The best answer I can give you then is that it is a policy of the GSO that sta- staff members at, um, at, at the Alcoholic Foundation,

65:02

[01 04:13.821 – 01:04:21.311] it was called the GSO in 1954, that those staff members are to remain anonymous.

65:07

[01 04:21.311 – 01:04:31.501] And that, that, that's their policy, and that's what I have read, uh, in, in recent times towards why it's, um, it's not

65:16

[01 04:31.501 – 01:04:41.600] more or less the policy or the purpose of the archives at, um, the, the GSO to publicize such things.

65:23

[01 04:41.600 – 01:04:48.691] They are to preserve and, and protect, um, the information that they have at their possession.

65:29

[01 04:48.691 – 01:04:56.311] It's not necessarily their role to publicize any individual staff member, uh, off of their, their policies.

65:35

[01 04:56.311 – 01:04:59.730] Whether or not that is, uh...

65:37

[01 04:59.730 – 01:05:09.771] Uh, but I will say that, uh, that has unfortunately led to, um, some, uh, people that made sacrifices, um,

65:45

[01 05:09.771 – 01:05:14.111] uh, for the, the benefit of AA in a staff position.

65:49

[01 05:14.111 – 01:05:24.771] Um, one of them is Helen Brown, and I hope I'm not breaking any too terrible, uh, news that Helen Brown, um, actually

65:57

[01 05:24.771 – 01:05:28.831] died by suicide at Stepping Stones in 1955.

66:00

[01 05:28.831 – 01:05:29.321] Hmm.

66:01

[01 05:29.321 – 01:05:30.571] That's not very well known.

66:03

[01 05:30.571 – 01:05:33.451] That is, again, a policy of the...

66:05

[01 05:33.451 – 01:05:39.791] But forgive me, I believe Helen Brown was a successor to Bobbie and deserves to be remembered as Bobbie was.

66:13

[01 05:39.791 – 01:05:42.071] I quite agree.

66:14

[01 05:42.071 – 01:05:43.131] Thank you so much.

66:16

[01 05:43.131 – 01:05:49.711] Thank you for the question, Chris.

66:18

[01 05:49.711 – 01:05:52.831] And are there any other questions tonight for Gary?

66:22

[01 05:52.831 – 01:06:01.631] All right.

66:23

[01 06:01.631 – 01:06:11.051] Well, I know that we're all looking forward to, to learning more about Bobbie's grave site, and I hope to see some pictures soon.

66:31

[01 06:11.051 – 01:06:12.611] And- Two weeks.

66:33

[01 06:12.611 – 01:06:15.291] Yes.

66:34

[01 06:15.291 – 01:06:15.671] Two weeks.

66:35

[01 06:15.671 – 01:06:16.600] I gotta wait two weeks.

66:37

[01 06:16.600 – 01:06:17.611] Can hardly wait.

66:38

[01 06:17.611 – 01:06:20.751] I was like a kid with a, a kid in a candy store.

66:43

[01 06:20.751 – 01:06:22.871] All right.

66:44

[01 06:22.871 – 01:06:25.011] Um, looking forward to it.

66:46

[01 06:25.011 – 01:06:30.011] And, uh, join us all again next week f- to hear about Nancy K.

66:51

[01 06:30.011 – 01:06:36.191] and their experience at the International Convention in Vancouver.

66:55

[01 06:36.191 – 01:06:41.061] And, uh, now I will, um, allow everyone to unmute and thank Gary.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

bobbie b presented by gary n – 2025-07-15

bobbie b presented by gary n – 2025-07-15

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