Dr. Bob and Bill W. Speak: AA’s 85th Anniversary — Tuesday Night History Workshop — June 19, 2020

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Speaker Mike Fitzpatrick

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Date Recorded June 19, 2020

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Topic AA Co-Founders and 85th Anniversary

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Mike Tuesday Night History Workshop • June 19, 2020

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Mike Listen to Meeting Recording

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Mike ABOUT THIS MEETING

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Mike Mike Fitzpatrick marks AA’s 85th anniversary with co-founder history and archival material featuring Bill Wilson and Ebby Thatcher.

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Mike Full Transcript

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Moderator All right, let's go. All right. Hi, everyone. I'm Tim, an alcoholic. Welcome to the Recovery Speakers history meeting. Um, this is the s- eighth week that we are doing this meeting, and it's every Friday night, so come on back and invite your friends. Um, tonight we have Mike F., who will be sharing about his book, Dr. Bob and Bill W. Speak, and some recordings from that book. Um, this meeting is being recorded. Um, no video will be shared. It's only for the audio and that will be put on recoveryspeakers.com, um, later tonight. Um, to receive the recording, I've been sending them out with the, um, daily featured talks. So if anyone wants to be on a da- on the email, um, list for the daily featured talk, um, send me your email in the chat or to, um, tim@recoveryspeakers.com. You can send me an email and I will include you on the daily speaker list. And we're continuing tonight with the celebration of the 85th anniversary of AA, um, celebrating the co-founders. So Mike will be speaking about that. And take it away, Mike. Thank you, Tim. I think I'm unmuted. Hi, everybody.

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Moderator Thanks so much for joining- Hi, Mike ... us. This, this month is such an incredibly historic month for AA. There's so many things that have happened. 85 years ago, we all know that AA started and began, and as a result of that, millions of people have been able to have their lives changed, their families' lives changed, and to be able to be contributing citizens of the world. And I'm so grateful for the co-founders, Dr. Bob and Bill, and the message that was carried to them and carried from them. Um, I want to do some housekeeping before we really get into the meeting. My email is mike@recoveryspeakers.com. You're more than welcome to email me at any time. Um, Tim, if you have, if you have any criticism or technical issues, please send it to tim@recoveryspeakers. Compliments go to mike@recoveryspeakers. Um, but realistically, I, I want to thank you for taking your time and joining us.

2:40

Mike And one of the things that we always want to do is make sure each week we share some things that maybe you've never been exposed to, something that will make you say, "Wow, it was really worth me jumping on that week." So this week, in celebration of AA's 85th anniversary, we pulled out the book that I wrote a few years ago called Dr. Bob and Bill W. Speak: A.A. Co-Founders Tell Their Stories. And I want to give you a little bit of background on that, because I had decided I didn't want to do any more books.

3:21

Mike And I was at a meeting up in Hazelden and the direc- uh, the head editor, the chief editor was there, Sid, and, uh, somebody had asked me, "Mike, what book are you gonna do next?" And I said, uh, "Nah, I, I, I really don't have any interest in doing any more books." And about three days later, my phone rang and it was Sid on the other end of the phone and he said, "Mike, I know that you said you don't want to do any more books, and I can appreciate that, but if you were to do a book, what would that book look like?" And I said, "Well, if I was to do a book, I'd want to do something about Alcoholics Anonymous co-founders, and I'd like to take the information, if I was to do that, from the Recovery Speakers library and be able to do a book that really Dr. Bob and Bill could tell us what their stories were." So that's what we compiled here when we put the book together, and that was the way that came together.

4:38

Mike So Sid had pi- I had shared that with him and, and a couple of days later he called me back and he said, "Great." He said, "Well, how about Dr. Bob and Bill W. Speak: A.A. Co-Founders Tell Their Story?" And, uh, it was done. I just decided that I would go ahead and do it. And I'm grateful that I did because I really do believe that there's some information in the book that historically is significant. And at the back of the book, there's a CD, and the CD is not like the speeches. Basically, what the CD is is the best of the material that I used. We compiled it and put it into a CD. The electronic version actually has icons that you can click on, and they have embedded audio in it so you can hear the co-founders and the different people that we used in, throughout the book. So that was kind of... I wanted to give you a little background on, on the book. So that's what we did, and that was in 2010.

5:51

Moderator Now, not much has changed historically in the past in AA, but however, as things have happened, this is the first time since 1950 that we don't have an international convention where we can attend as members of AA physically. Okay? First time. This is the first time in history that Alcoholics Anonymous meetings all over the globe are being done on Zoom and other digital formats. So shut-ins and- loners and people all over can enjoy AA and get to see their friends and join us. And historically, this time is extremely significant on what's happening in AA and as we go forward. And I don't know exactly what that's gonna look like. I think we're gonna have some parallel meetings. I think there's gonna be continuation of Zoom meetings as we get back to normal in the future, whenever that really, really is. But I think that it's important that we recognize that the history of Alcoholics Anonymous is only 85 years. So we really are making the history now. This, you know, in 100, 200 years from now, people are gonna look back and they're gonna say, "Oh, man.

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Mike Look what these people were doing." And I think that that's so important that we preserve the history. That was why we took on and decided to do recovery speakers. And to give you a little background, recovery speakers came out of the Midwest Tape Library, which was a product, a project done by Bill and Arbutus O'Neill out of Texas. They started it. Bill got sober in 1951, and Arbutus was one of the pioneers of Al-Anon. And they went to conferences all over and taped the speakers and put them on reel-to-reel tapes, because that's what they were using then. Later on, after Bill passed away, I was able to purchase the library and we began to digitize it and make these recordings available, as well as preserve the history. And I'm grateful we've been able to do that. It's been a, a, just a blast to get into some of this history and to be able to listen to the voices of the pioneers. This past week, if you were on our daily feature, we had a talk by, uh... Oh. We've had three, I can't even think of who they were.

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Moderator We had, Arbutus was one day, though. And I had a lot of compliments on Arbutus and people calling me up saying, "Wow, she wasn't in AA, but she really knew AA." And she sure did. So I'm grateful that we're able to continue to do what they started and to make that project what it is today. I also want to take a minute and thank Tim for his hard work and the work that he's done to make these meetings possible. So when I was getting ready to write the book on Dr. Bob and Bill, I was a little bit troubled because I felt like I had plenty of information on Bill Wilson. I probably have 45 original recordings of Bill W. I have four of Dr. Bob. And I called a friend of mine in Texas, Tom White. He wrote a book called Bill W.: A Different Kind of Hero. And I called Tom, we were having a conversation, and I shared with him that I was a little bit challenged because I wasn't sure I was gonna have enough information on Dr. Bob, really, to make the book interesting.

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Moderator And To- and, and, and I probably said something like, "Bill W.'s contribution to Alcoholics Anonymous is very clear, but Dr. Bob's, there doesn't seem to be much information. It's hard for me to see what his contribution was." And when I said that, Tom started to laugh. And he said, "Oh, you just haven't done enough work." And I began to look at Dr. Bob and really study what happened in Akron. And as a result of what was happening in Akron, we had groups start in Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Indianapolis. Many of these original AA groups, the members who went on to those cities and started these groups, started right in Dr. Bob's house, with Anne Smith and Dr. Bob mentoring these people and, in some cases, bringing them in to live with them for a year or more. Archie Trowbridge from Detroit lived with Dr. Bob and Anne for, I believe, 14 months. And then Bill Wilson came and got him and took him back to Detroit. So I went to my sponsor when it was time to write the meeting, or, or to write the book.

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Mike And I said, "Howard, I wanna do this, but my fear or my concern is there's so many different versions of AA history that I don't want anyone to feel like I'm saying that this is the only way to look at AA." And he said, "Let me tell you a story." He said, "When I was early in my sobriety," his wife and him, Pat and he, had some words. And Howard left to work and, in the middle of this argument, he had to go to work. And he said he came home from work and he wanted to continue with the argument and prove that he was right and that she was wrong. And he came home and he started, and Pat looked at him and said, "Howard, you're right." And Howard looked and he didn't under- why, how, what happened? So he said, "Pat, what happened?" And she said her Al-Anon sponsor, Ruth, had come by, and she had shared with Ruth that her and Howard were having this difficulty.

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Moderator And Ruth suggested to Pat that she take a dollar bill out, and she put that dollar bill between her and Howard, and she could explain exactly what she sees and Howard could explain exactly- To what he sees, and they would both be explaining and describing the exact same thing, but a completely different version because they were seeing it from a different angle. That's the history of Alcoholics Anonymous. It really depends often on what somebody had mentioned, uh, Bill Shaber's presentation and, uh, about, you know, Dr. Bob not becoming a co-founder till later on. And in no way am I criticizing or critiquing Bill. I love him. I think he did a wonderful job, and I'm grateful that he took the time to share with us. But I will say that his, his writing and his research was defined to a certain period of time, and he talked, he talked about that, from October '37 until April of '39. Well, we know that there's other evidence that i- that is beyond those years that, that tells us and validates that Dr. Bob was a co-founder. And certainly Bill Wilson always recognized Dr. Bob as a co-founder.

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Mike And we also know that Dr. Bob, or that Ann Smith invited Bill to live in their home, and that those two really began to develop what was to come in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. So I started the book with that, with the story on Howard. Then because I was listening to all these recordings, I was really hearing different versions. And for example, in the Big Book, Bill Wilson talks about his schoolmate coming by, the telephone ringing, and he invites his friend over, and he comes by and they sit at the kitchen table. And he looks across and, and he sees something's different in Ebby. His eyes are different, and he knows Ebby's got something. And he says, "What is it, Ebby? What are you having?" And Ebby says, "I've got religion." And Bill had difficulty with that. And Bill goes on in his story to tell us his version of what happened. Well, Ebby's version is slightly different. Ebby said that he ha- he talked about, and I'm gonna back up a little bit and talk about what had happened because Ebby wa, was painting the house, his family home in Manchester.

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Mike And while he was painting the house, Sebre Graves and Shep Cornell stopped by to see him, and they asked how he was doing. And Ebby said, he said he told them the truth. He wasn't doing very well at all. He couldn't stop drinking. He could barely get the house painted. He had to hire somebody to help him. They left him with a book. Ebby didn't say what the book was, but I've done a little bit of research and one of Ebby's, uh, uh, relatives was recently on Stepping Stones', um, uh, picnic that they shared online, uh, two weeks ago. And that book was a book called I Was a Pagan by VC Kitchen. That was an Oxford Group book. It had just come out earlier that same year. Ebby started reading that book. He got in trouble with the law, and he had to go to Bennington. And he goes there, and the judge, Judge Graves, says, "You come back here on Monday." And that was the hearing, was on Monday. "You come back on Monday, and we'll make a decision of what we're gonna do.

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Moderator And in the meantime, Ebby, I don't want you to drink." And we're gonna play a, a clip from Ebby. But Ebby's, the idea in Ebby's head as the alcoholic was he couldn't go back drunk, but maybe he could have a few drinks. And he went back to court on Monday, and when he went back, he had... There in the court was Sebre Graves, Shep Cornell, and Roland Hazzard. Roland Hazzard had helped Sebre Graves, the, the son of the judge. So Judge Graves was the one presiding over Ebby's case. Sebre, his son, was sober, and Roland was the one responsible for having helped Sebre. And I know as a father of an alcoholic the gratitude that I have to the people who helped my son. And I know that maybe if that was any other person that was in front of him, he would've gone to jail. But because of the influence that Roland had on Sebre Graves, Judge Graves looked over the, his bench at Roland and said, "I will release Ebby to you. Ebby, you can go with him.

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Moderator You do what he does." Had he handled that any differently, I don't think that maybe we would be here tonight. Tim, if you're there and you can play that clip from Ebby, that would be great. The very beginning of it isn't great, but it, it picks up right after a couple of words. And I could hear him up there, and I decided this is about as good a time to eliminate him as any, rain or not. And believe me, it was pouring down rain. So I loaded the old double-barrel shotgun and I went out and I was backing up on the wet grass and all, looking to get a shot. I went down, I went on my back There I was lying on my back and I didn't see any reason to get up and shoot out. So I was banging away at them where I was at. And I guess my neighbors could see me from their windows and I imagine they complained to the law. And I'm a little ahead of my story there because just three or four weeks before that, two men had come to see me.

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Moderator Two boys that I'd known for years and had drunk with. And I'd been drunk more times than they had because I couldn't, uh, I, I was more of an alcoholic than they were. In fact, I think they were both steady or heavy drinkers, not alcoholics. But anyway, they wandered into my house and they sat down and a lot of hemming and hawing and finally they kind of opened up. I couldn't figure out what the dickens they were driving at. They said, "Did you ever think of turning your life over to God? You've been trying to run it Ebby Thatcher's way all your life and you're not get- getting very far." And they said, "We've run into something and, uh, he's done us a lot of good, and we'd like to give it to you." And they had become associated with a group called the Oxford Group. And they talked pretty good common sense to me, and I liked the color of the whole thing and so I, I determined I'd do something about it. And I'd been trying to paint the house alone.

20:02

Moderator The ladder was too short and I was too damn drunk most of the time. I finally made a deal with a boss painter and he sent me over a man and some equipment. And I knew this fella. He didn't drink. I got sobered up and we painted the house. Took about a week or 10 days. It was a big house. There was a lot of stuff and cutting the sash and all that, you know. And then as I say, when the thing was over, I fell by the wayside again. Well, I got drunk this third time and I guess the law, the law was looking for me for a couple of days, but I was locked in the house and they didn't have any search warrant or any warrant of entry. But I walked uptown and this boy I met, I'd call him a boy, I went to school with him one year. And he nabbed me and he said, "We've got to go down to Bennington to see the judge." Well, the judge happened to be the father of one of these boys who'd come to see me.

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Moderator And quite a lush in his own right, believe me. And he said, "Well," he says, "I haven't got time for you today," but he says, "This is Friday." He said, "I want to see you back here Monday, and I want to see you sober." So this fella drove me back to Manchester. We'd gone down to Bennington, the county seat 22 miles away. And on the way back, I began to think of three or four cold bottles of Ballantine Ale I had down in the cellar. So this fella let me out and I went in the house and I said, "Well, the judge told me to come back sober, but he didn't say a damn thing about taking a drink. He didn't tell me not to take a drink." So I went in the darn cellar and I reached for one of these bottles of ale. I got my hand, I said, "Wait a minute. That's not exactly playing cricket." I walked back upstairs, and by the time I got back upstairs, the devil was on my shoulder again.

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Moderator He said, "What the hell, nobody's gonna know a thing about it." He said, "They won't sell you any liquor in this town over the weekend. Everybody knows you've been drunk. You're in trouble. Go on down and have that ale." I get down there, but I couldn't take it. And finally, I just wrapped those three bottles up and took them over to a friend of mine. I said, "Here, I don't want it." And he looked at me with his mouth wide open. Wondering what the hell had happened to me. But now, that's a simple thing, and it isn't much in the telling, but it meant everything in the world to me at that time. It is the difference between maintaining my sobriety for two years and a half and not. Because that night when I got down on my knees to make a little prayer to God, I said, "God..." I don't remember the words I used, but the gist of it was, "God, I mean business about this drinking." And believe me, it was just like having a weight lifted from my shoulder, and I went to bed and slept like a baby. Thanks, Tim.

24:01

Moderator Is my audio on? Good. So that was Ebby. If you haven't heard Eddy, Ebby, you now have. And, you know, he shares that story about, you know, going to court. But what happened to him was Rowland took him under his wing. Rowland began to take him to what they called house parties, the house parties of the Oxford Group. And they were meeting in, uh, lodges, uh, fire departments, things like that. These weren't huge, big meetings. They were small clusters of, of people who were trying to change their life through the Oxford Group. We've invited Jay Stennet to talk. He's gonna be on, uh, July 3rd with us as our guest, and he's gonna talk a little bit about the Oxford Group. And then we're gonna talk about some of the literature like I Was a Pagan and For Sinners Only and, and those books throughout the month of July while we're also doing a lot of the international convention stuff. But so what happened with Ebby was he finally got to the point where it was time to start paying restitution for some of the harm that he had done.

25:19

Mike And he ended up in New York. Now, here's Ebby's story of the kitchen table. Ebby said he was down on Wall Street and he met some friends that he knew knew Bill Wilson. He inquired how Bill was doing. He says, "How is Bill?" And they said, "I understand he's in rough shape." Ebby decided he would call Lois, or call over to the Wilson house, and Lois answered the phone. He talked to Lois. He told Lois he had been sober for a couple of months. He's in New York, and he's been working with this Oxford Group. And Lois said, "Ebby, come and see Bill. We would love for you to talk to Bill. I don't know what we're gonna do for him." "He's just been repeatedly in the hospital." He's not getting better. We would love for you to come." So they made an appointment. Ebby said he was, uh, invited over for dinner. He arrived a little bit early.

26:31

Mike He was greeted at the door by, when he got there, by a guy named Greens, and he was a housekeeper, or not a housekeeper, but kind of a, uh, a chauffeur, uh, someone who was helping Lois' family run errands, take care of things. He was a caretaker, and he let Ebby in. Shortly after that, Bill showed up and he, and Bill and Ebby started having some small talk, and then Bill had to excuse himself and wanted to go to the delicatessen to pick up some cigarettes or something, and Ebby knew he was going for a drink, and, and Ebby was fine. This is Ebby's words. So Bill came back, and finally Lois came, and when Lois arrived, she began to prepare dinner. And after they went up into the, uh... They had dinner together, and Ebby said at the dinner was Lois, a lady that lived upstairs of Bill and Lois on Clinton Street, Ebby, and Bill. So there were four people at dinner. After dinner, they went upstairs to the parlor.

27:39

Mike There, Lois said to Ebby, "Ebby, what's been going on?" Ebby said that he knew he had one shot at Bill W., and he went at him with the best pitch that he'd ever performed in his life, and he gave Bill everything he had, and he knew Bill was either gonna take it or he was gonna have nothing to do with it. He said he spent about four and a half hours pitching to Bill. And at the end of the night, you know, he talked to him about the Oxford Group, he talked about the house parties, he talked about the principles and the tenets that he had learned, the four absolutes. He w- he really, he talked about the fact that, that he had said to Bill, you know, "We have to find a God, even if we only use that as an experiment." And Bill later talked about that. So as Ebby was leaving that evening, Bill walked him to the subway, put his arm around him and said, "I don't know what you've got, boy, but I want it." That was Ebby's version of the kitchen table.

28:57

Moderator Now, I don't know if Bill's version in the Big Book was accurate or if Ebby's version that was stated many years later was accurate. I do know this, that Bill was drunk and Ebby was sober. So I don't know if we can draw anything from that. I don't think that that changes anything historical within AA, because the principles that Ebby carried to Bill were carried at that meeting, whether it was at a kitchen table with two guys looking across the table, or if it was in the parlor with four people sitting there and Ebby talking. The same principles were the principles that were conveyed to Bill, and those principles... Well, I'm gonna actually let Tim play a clip, and Bill can tell you what those principles are. Here's Bill Wilson talking about the principles that Ebby shared with him. Then came an interval of a few months. And during that period, a friend of mine who had been released of his obsession, by the grace of God, came to visit me.

30:08

Moderator And over my kitchen table, where I sat drinking whilst Lois was at work, he related this simple formula which has now flowered in our 12 steps of recovery. And that simple essence was, you remember, that he admitted he could not manage his own life, that he had got honest with himself as never before, that he had made a confession of his character defects, that he had tried to sweep away the debris of the past by mending his broken relations with others. And then he told me of a new kind of giving that demanded no reward. And then, rather hesitantly, because he knew my agnosticism, he said, "And to do these things, I ask God's help." Thus spoke one alcoholic to another. And that was Bill talking about the original six steps that Ebby shared with him. Later, Bill talks about being in Towns Hospital for the last time. He had just come off a bad drunk and actually was still drinking. He called a taxi cab to take him to Towns Hospital.

31:15

Mike On his way, he asked the cab driver to stop so he could get some beer, and he said he grabbed a couple of bottles of ale. He walked into the hospital waving a bottle of beer, and he sees Dr. Silkworth, and he says, "Doctor, I've got it." And he said that Dr. Silkworth looked back and said, "You sure do, my boy. Now go on up and sleep it off." And the doctor later gave him some medication. They tapered Bill off. And a couple days later, Ebby came to see him. And he said, Bill said he woke up in the morning, he looked, and standing in the door was Ebby. And the thought came to him, "Why is he not out looking for a job?" Because they were just coming off this horrible depression. Things were not quite back to normal yet. These guys, everybody was broke and unemployed and struggling. And he looks and he sees this guy, and he says, "Why isn't he looking for a job?" And he said the next thought that came to him was, "Here's a man who practices what he preaches." "Ebby, come in," he said.

32:36

Mike Ebby came in and sat. Bill said, "Ebby, what was that simple formula that you shared with me at my house just a few weeks ago?" And Ebby said, "Bill, you gotta be licked. You gotta be done. You have to be willing to believe in some sort of God. Try it as an experiment, Bill. Write down your inventory, the things you've done, the people you've harmed. Be willing to have a confession. Then we have to pay restitution for harms done, and that's what brought me to New York, Bill. And lastly, we have to work with others like us." The simple formula that was laid out. And Bill later said he expanded on that formula because he wanted to create the steps so that the alcoholic didn't have wiggle room to get out of them. And then another recording where he was talking about a group of Catholic priests that met with him in St. Louis about the 12 steps and the Ignatian exercises. And they talked to Bill and questioned him.

33:46

Moderator And they said, "Why did you do step three the way you did when our Ignatian exercise does it here?" And Bill, over and over to these priests, said the same thing. "I was trying to enlarge upon the steps that we were using and these original principles so that I could expand on it in such a way that the alcoholic wouldn't have the wiggle room to get out of it." And, uh, yeah, it's pretty amazing that he was able to do that. And then Bill talks about writing the 12 steps. And I think we've got that clip, don't we, Tim? Tim, can you please play the clip? And I laid there with a pad and a pencil, and I began to think over these six steps that I've just recited to you. And said I to myself, "Well, if we put down these six steps, the chunks are too big. They'll have to digest too much all at once. Besides, they can wiggle out from in between.

34:56

Moderator And if we're going to do a book, we ought to break those up into smaller pieces." So I began to write, and in about a half an hour, I think, uh, I had busted them up into smaller pieces. And then ra- I was rather pleasantly surprised that when numbered, they added up to 12. Well, that's significant, very nice. And at this point, a couple of drunks sailed in, and I showed them the proposed 12 steps, and I caught fits. Why did we need 12 when six were doing fine? And what did I mean by dragging God from the bottom of the list up to the top? And meanwhile, uh, these meetings in the front parlor had largely turned into hassles over the chapters of the book. The roughs were submitted and read at every meeting, so that when the 12 steps were proposed, there, there was a still greater hassle. Thanks, Tim. So that was Bill sharing with us his recollection of writing the steps. And I believe that when he did that, you know, he wrote them in pencil.

36:06

Moderator I believe that what Bill had later said was exactly what Bill was thinking, and that was, "How can we elaborate on these original principles in such a way that they can be meaningful to the alcoholic and give them a track to run on?" And realistically, Alcoholics Anonymous is a track for AA, for us alcoholics, to get on. Because when we're able to do that, we have found that we can get up, stand up, and stay up. When I was doing the book and I was going through this, it was difficult to pick out what recordings I wanted to use. All of the recordings that you've heard tonight are all in the book. The next ones, uh, the next two are not. But I wanted... One of the things that Bill later said was that St. Francis and the St. Francis Prayer was his favorite prayer. And he said throughout the writing of the book, he was- Engaged with Francis. And we've got a short clip I wanna share with you, because I think St. Francis had such an impact on Bill that later made its way into the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Tim? Over at Dr.

37:23

Mike Bob's house, the childhood memories of a few sessions at congregational Sunday School were revived. When there we listened to Ann read from James, that, "Faith without works is dead." But like Eddie, I think the beginning of my appreciation was made when I first contacted one of the great of this wondrous church. And he came to me across the centuries through the words of a biography written, I think, by a non-Catholic. And at lengths my eyes fell upon this prayer, which says, "This, Bill, is all that you or anyone could possibly aspire to." And just like the newcomer who comes in saying of his sponsor, "This guy practices what he preaches," so did I look upon Francis as I moved out of the kindergarten and into mayhap the first grade. It was early over there. The book was done after this experience. As we know, the ideas that went into it stemmed from many sources. But always there was central in my mind this man of poverty, this man of wisdom, this man of love almost beyond compare. Then came my next experience.

38:37

Mike By that I mean an experience in which the language of love was so spoken from the heart that it reached me deeply. My screen keeps moving me around. I think we've got it now. But that was Bill talking about the effect of St. Francis on him while he was writing the book. And we know what happened to Bill in the hospital that day that Ebby went in and Bill said, "Can you acquaint me with that simple formula that you shared with me?" Bill said Ebby shared that with him and then he left. And when Ebby left, Bill said he went into the deepest depression that he'd ever had. And in the depth of that darkness he cried out as a child, "If there's a God, show himself." And Bill said the room lit up a bright white light. He felt like he was on the top of a mountain. He could feel the breeze, and he knew that it was the breeze of the spirit, and he had been released, never to take another drink. You know, and that excitement that Bill had in get- getting permission from Dr.

39:53

Moderator Silkworth and Charles Towns to be able to call on patients in the hospital in New York. One of the patients he called on, we shared his, the audio from him the other day, um, Ernest M., okay? Scott had told me last week, he said, "Oh, man, you gotta listen." So I listened to Ernest and I wanted to put it on our daily feature. Ernest M., and he was in Towns hospital 55 times. He knew Bill Wilson when Bill was drinking, and he talked about his experience and what had happened. And that he wasn't ready, but later he was. And in 1940 Ernest got sober and stayed that way. But Bill was having a series of failures while he was trying to carry the message that Ebby had carried to him. Part of that may have been because of how- How profound his spiritual experience was that he found himself preaching. And he said that, you know, people started, you know, avoiding him and saying, "Hey, he's gonna talk about his white light experience." But after six months of failures, he ends up in Akron, Ohio. We know the story. He's in Akron.

41:10

Moderator The business deal's not coming toge- together the way that he wanted it to. He's pacing the hall of the Mayflower Hotel. At one end of the hotel is a church directory. At the other end is a bar. He says the bar is starting to fill up. There's a little bit of noise in there, some smoke. He's thinking about going in and grabbing himself a ginger ale. He knows he's on dangerous ground, and for the first time in six months, he's actually thinking about taking a drink. He sees this church directory and he's looking at the list of names, and he sees a name on there, Tunks. And he says, "That's an odd name. I think I'll call Tunks." And he calls Reverend Walter Tunks. And Reverend Tunks answered the phone. And he said, "Bill, I don't know if I can help you, but I've got a guy and he's part of the Oxford Group. His name is Norman Shepard." And he gave Bill Norman Shepard's phone number, and this was on the eve of Mother's Day, 1935. And Bill called that list, 'cause he called Norman and Norman said, "Bill, I can't help you.

42:38

Moderator I'm on my way out. But I'll give you a list of a few people who might be available. Why don't you try them?" And he gave him a list of names, and at the end of that list was the name Henrietta Sibram. And he called Henrietta and he to- he said, "Listen, I'm a drunk. I'm in a little bit of trouble. I need another drunk to work with." And she's like, "Oh my God, Bill. You're an answer to our prayers. We just gathered. We just had a prayer meeting for Dr. Bob. He's a surgeon in our community, and he's not been able to get sober at all. I don't know if you can help him, Bill, but we need you to come over. You need to talk to Dr. Bob." And Henrietta calls Anne Smith and says, "Hey, there's a guy from New York and he's coming over. Bring Dr. Bob over. These two have to meet." And Anne says, "Well, Dr. Bob's a sentimental man, and he brought me a potted plant for Mother's Day, and the potted plant's on the table and he's under the table.

44:05

Mike So I'm sorry, Henrietta, he can't come today." But she promised that they would bring Dr. Bob on the next day. And Smitty drove his mother and father over to the gatehouse at the Siberling Estate in Akron on s- May 12th, 1935. That is the meeting that Dr. Bob and Bill had together. Henrietta, in her wisdom, knew enough to put these guys aside, and they went into the library. Bill said, he looked at Bob and said, "You look like you could use a drink." And I think Dr. Bob probably said, "Wow, this guy at least understands." And they talked. No one knows exactly what was said there, but we do know that Dr. Silkworth had said to Bill, "Stop preaching. Why don't you talk to them about the physical part of this and the mental obsession that goes with it? And once you start taking a drink, you have no control over it, and that obsession continues and you can't stop." And I think Bill communicated that message, and it, because it was one alcoholic talking to another and he had a message of depth and weight, I believe that Dr.

45:23

Moderator Bob looked at Bill and said, "I don't know what you got, my boy, but I want it." Just like Bill said to Ebby. You know, Dr. Bob in his last talk, and we've all heard it, said Alcoholics Anonymous, if you simmered it down to just two things, those two things would be love and service. And we know that one alcoholic talking to another alcoholic is a manifestation of the love that we have, not just for that alcoholic, but also for ourselves. Because Bill knew he needed that alcoholic as bad as that alcoholic needed him. All of what I've shared tonight is in the book Dr. Bob and Bill W. Speak. Next week we're gonna continue this series and talk a little bit more about that and play some more clips and s- show some letters. But I've asked Tim... What I always like to do is leave some time for questions and answers. So I'm asking Tim to share Bill W. reciting his favorite prayer. Over at Dr. Bob's house, the childhood memories of...

46:36

Moderator And I laid there with a pad and a pencil, and I began to think over these six steps that I've just recited to you. Yeah. And said, "I," to myself, "Well, if we could- It was on video. It is all together fitting. That you share with me the prayer of Christ. Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is doubt, faith. Where there is despair, hope. Where there is darkness, light. And where there is sadness, joy. Oh, divine master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console. To be understood, as to understand. To be loved, as to love. For it is in giving that we receive. It is in pardoning that we are pardoned. And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. It is altogether fitting. Thanks, Tim. I wanna thank you all for joining us tonight. I wanna let you know that Tim's going to make it so you can unmute yourselves. If you have any questions, I... And I have answers, I'd love to answer them.

47:52

Moderator And if I don't have the answer, there's some people on here tonight that may have an answer for you. So we're open for Q&A, and I hope you all come back next week. And we had 135 people tonight. Yeah. Yes. Mike, Mike, I've got a question. Uh, my foggy recollection is that, uh, Ebby got drunk just, uh, just after the book was written. Eb- when Ebby talked about three and a half years of sobriety, was he sober for the- Yeah. Here's what Ebby said, Bob. He, he said that he st- he maintained sobriety, that he lived with Bill when Bill came back from Akron. Yeah. And he stayed in Bill's house for a year. And that he had stayed sober for 29 months. He went to dinner with a lady in New York, and she ordered a drink and he decided to order one too, and that started him back up. So he had 29... According to Ebby, he had 29 months of sobriety after he had met with Bill. So he, he drank a considerable time before the book was published. Yeah. Yes.

49:07

Mike The book came out in '39, so Ebby would've gotten drunk probably- 'Cause I, I kind of heard that, uh, Hank and Ebby, I thought, got... You know, that Bill had all this stuff happening to him that, you know, Hank got drunk and... But Ebby was before. Okay. That makes sense. Thank you. Hank didn't get s- uh, uh, he had his... Started drinking in 1940. So the book had come out and the second printing hadn't come out yet. Mike, I've got a question. Hi, I'm... Oh, I'm gonna call out my name. It's Debbie. Oh. Hey, Debbie. Hi, Debbie. Hi. Can you just clarify, uh, you said that that night when Bill went into that hotel and he saw the church directory and he saw the bar, so he went and he called Henrietta. Um- A lot of folks. So actually, that evening, he didn't actually meet with anybody that evening? Well, he, he- It was the next day ... he called Henrietta after he had called Norman Shepard. Yes. And the story that Bill tells is he did go over there and had dinner with Henrietta and they talked. Oh, okay.

50:25

Moderator And it was the next day- The next, next day. Okay ... that Dr. Bob and Anne and Smitty came over. Perfect. Thank you. Rob, you had a question? Yeah. Thanks, Mike. Uh, what was that gatehouse like at the Siberling Estate? 'Cause it had a parlor. Um, I'm trying to picture a gatehouse being large enough to- Oh, it's big. Well, it, it, it... Have you, have you had an opportunity to go to Akron? No. Okay. So the g- if you go in, uh, to the gatehouse, you walk in the front door. To the right is the library, and it's just a small little library and that's where Bob and Bill met for the first time there. Now, the estate is much bigger, okay? But the gatehouse, kind of off to the side, it's a small building. Exactly. And, uh, when I was, when I was just in Akron I was able to, to get a great tour of that. Hey, Mike? Yes. Um, so, uh, Bill didn't move right in with Anne and Dr. Bob. Didn't... Was it... I'd always heard Henrietta put him up at, what, the clubhouse or some place. Club.

51:45

Moderator A hotel or something for a week or so because Bill had no money left. Well, uh- You need to turn the light on, Scott? I know that Anne Smith and, uh, was concerned about Dr. Bob and understood that the two of them together might be able to keep each other sober. So she extended the invitation for Bill to come move in and he stayed there for about three months. Now, whether or not he might have had a flop somewhere else for a couple of days before that, I have- Not see- I, I heard she put him up at the Portage Club. Yeah. For a little bit. Right. That's what I heard. Yeah. So there, there you go. And I believe that that would be the case, because they had to get to know him a little bit. I got one other question. This is Eddie. I got one other question. Um, how long did it take you from the time that you started gathering this information to write this book? Because it's really a good book. Thanks, Eddie. And I'm glad that you like the book.

52:59

Moderator And basically, you know, the book didn't take that long to compile, but at the time that I wrote the book in 2010- Mm-hmm ... I had 25 years of sobriety, and I had already had the tape library for probably seven years. So I had been listening to these recordings and digitizing them and going over all of this stuff not knowing that I was gonna write a book. So I, I, you know, the book itself probably took me 10 months to put together, but the information came over a period of years of listening to the recordings and having- Right ... the opportunities that I had. When I got sober, I got, uh, my sponsor, the gentleman that was gracious enough to let me live with him, Bob, Bob knew Big John. And John invited me down to Texas for two weeks, and I stayed for two years. And every night we would sit up till 2:00, 3:00 in the morning and he would be telling me stories of Bill W. and adventures that they had and things that Bill had said.

54:07

Mike So a lot of this information was just being poured into me never knowing that I was ever gonna do anything with it. But I'm so grateful that it was, because as a result, it created a foundation for my recovery. So if any of you, when you're listening to history and you're tuned in to history, I strongly recommend that you hang with it because what a foundation we have in Alcoholics Anonymous because of our history. Thank you, Mike. Okay. I appreciate it. Mike, I have a question. Mike. Yes. One of the things, eh, that you didn't talk about but you, you did talk about Ebby and Bill meeting and how there were two different stories. But I think as I recall, Bill S. said that it wasn't said, and I'm not sure about the part where in, in Bill's story it says where Ebby said to him, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" Was that inserted by somebody else as, as a nice thought, or was that what Ebby said to him?

55:21

Mike Well, I can tell you that when we start looking at the Oxford Group literature, Tom, in July, you're gonna be able to see that the Ox- a lot of the Oxford Group literature really kind of guides us to that type of terminology. Okay. Through When Man Listens and some of these other books that we know that Bill was exposed to and that Ebby was reading, and he was hearing this from the Oxford Group guys that he was hanging out with. So exactly what was said, Ebby said what he... E- Ebby's story is, "I told Bill this, that I found religion." Yep. "Choose a god of your understanding." Okay? Ebby said that he said that. Bill said that Ebby said that. Okay? So I'm going... Y- you know, most of the material that I use is off of their words. Okay? And I base it on the recordings that they have. Now, if you go to GSO, you may look in the archives and not see some of this. I imagine. So, you know, I, I don't want to say this is better material than- Oh ... what's in GSO.

56:38

Mike All I can report is this version based on the original stories of these guys talking. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Uh, uh, can I, can I ask a question? Can, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Yes. Yes. Uh, well, I, I wanted to ask you something that I've always wondered about. The, the Oxford Group had the six steps. Is that right? They had- Four. Am I right that they had the six steps? Well, the, the- Or do I have that wrong? Yeah, well, the Oxford Group never really had steps. They had principles that were expanded upon from the four absolutes. And the four absolutes were absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. So the authors of the Oxford Group began to talk about those things, but I don't think those six steps, if there ever really was six steps that were documented, happened until the alcoholics started getting involved and started to see what they needed to do to stay sober. The reason why I ask that is I always wondered, it seemed like Dr.

57:48

Mike Bob and Anne were such wonderful people, such giving, loving, fantastic people, and they were involved with the Oxford Group. I just wondered why, what happened that Dr. Bob finally, uh, got sobriety with Bill? What's the difference between what he was doing so fervently with the Oxford Group and, and it didn't work? Have you- Well- Have you ever thought about that? Yeah. What it wa- uh, you know, uh, what it was was the identification, and that was one alcoholic communicating- Mm-hmm ... a message to another alcoholic. See, the Oxford Group was not made up of alcoholics. These were people mostly, uh, very, a lot of them upper class folks, okay, that had fallen on s- some difficulties and they were attending Oxford Group, and one of the books was called Life Changes. Okay? So what was, they were trying to change their life and better themselves within their community. So some of the principles, like confession and restitution, came directly from the Oxford Group. But I think the power that Bill carried to, to Bob of one alcoholic talking to another and that identification was what really stood with Bob. I see. Thank you.

59:03

Mike Mike, can they try to jump, can I try to jump in with one quick question, Mike? Please. So being the, it's, it's the anniversary of, uh, Founders' Day and I always had this question about the date. So if, if Bill Wilson, as I understand it, his last drink was on December 10th of '34, so his sobriety date is the 11th. Right. But then Bob, his last drink is on the 10th and yet that's the day we celebrate. W- can you have a, can you tell me something about that? Well, I, I can tell you what I, what I know and, uh, that is that Dr. Bob's last drink was not on June 10th. Oh. Now, there's pretty good, there's pretty good evidence to indicate that it was probably the following week- Mm-hmm ... which would have been June 17th. Okay? So AA, again, it's just like the story of, of the kitchen table. You know, AA historically we celebrate based on that date and, and that's our Founders' Day. That's our celebration of, of Dr. Bob and Bill meeting.

60:19

Moderator Now, they didn't know at the time that they needed to document all of this stuff for historical purposes. That's right. They were just trying to stay sober and later they said, "Oh, when the heck was that? Uh, wait, it was in June. I know it was on a..." Yeah. "You know what? It was June 10th." Okay? Well, then later, you know, w- we, we identified that it's not, but that's okay. So the date when he had the operation and he needed a little extra drink might have been later than the, than the 10th week. It's, it's very likely that it was the 17th of June in '35. Yeah. Okay. There are documents that show that the medical convention- Right ... he supposedly attended happened after the 10th. Well, it actually happened during the 10th. During the 10th, but yeah. And that's why we know that, uh- Those are the records that people have looked at to determine that it didn't actually, wasn't actually the 10th. It was a Friday. No, it was a Thursday. Next month, I think. Yeah. But the actual meeting- I th- I actually had a- ...

61:40

Moderator of Bill and Bob was the 10th. I'm sorry? But the actual meeting of Bill and Bob was on the 10th, the first time they met or the 11th. No. The first time they met was on a Thursday- On the- ... which was May 12th, 1935. May 12th. Month before. Yeah, month before that. So during that month- Wow. Okay ... B- Bill and Bob, uh, during that month Bill and Dr. Bob, okay, were trying to work with other alcoholics and they were staying sober and Bill was living at Dr. Bob's house. Dr. Bob then attended a medical convention in Atlantic City and while he was in attendance there, he picked up a drink. He got back to Akron very drunk and his nurse and Anne and Bill sobered him up and got him ready to do the surgery that he had to perform, that only he could perform and that was what we use as the last day or the beginning of Alcoholics Anonymous. But Mike, why is it it's the day when he drank?

62:48

Mike Why did he pick a sobriety date, whether it's the 10th or the 17th, on, on the day when he had a drink? You know, leave it to alcoholics to kind of poll vote over mouse turds. The reality is this, okay? Um, some people like to k- to consider their sobriety date after, a day after they had their last drink and some people consider their sobriety date or the beginning of their sobriety at their last drink. Um, I know that my sobriety date is April 23rd, 1985. That is the day that I had my last drink of alcohol. Right. 'Cause once you stop one thing, you start another. Well, again- Once you stop drinking. 'Cause otherwise if you wait till you're sober, it might be a week or so till you're really sober, right? Yeah. But, but John- The only, the only logic I- ... the truth is we get to pick that. Yeah, but they weren't thinking about sobriety dates in those days. Okay. The only logic, the only logic that I see with having it the o- the other way, like Dr.

64:01

Moderator Bill, is that if you get, if you take your last drink at 11:59 of January the 1st and then now it's midnight, you might think you have an entire day, but you just have a minute. So that's why the other way makes more sense to me. But- That's beautiful. All good. I have to change my sobriety date. Yeah. Do whatever works for you, but don't pick up a drink. Hey, Mike. Thank you. Mike, I have a quick question if that's okay. Yeah. Um, so in the A.A. from Chicago's personal story in the back of the book, he mentions, um, you know, working with D- with Dr. Bob on the six step program as it was at, at that time. I mean, he describes it as complete deflation, dependence and guidance from a higher power, moral inventory, confession, restitution and continued work with other alcoholics. That's it. Are there any other sources that confirm that that was the program that they were working at that time or...? Well, a- again, um, Bill says that that was what they were doing. Ebby said that's what they were doing.

65:19

Mike Now, Earl Treat, who wrote that story that you're referring to, his story didn't come into the Big Book until the second edition. Okay. You know, is there documented evidence of a six-step program in the world service office? I ha- I have not seen that. Okay. I'm basing my research, and I'm very clear about the research that I've done, that it's from the recordings that we have. So I do it in their own words, and that's why- Mm-hmm ... I'm confident sharing that. What, now, if they were all, you know, exaggerating or remembering it wrong, maybe that's the case. I don't know. Okay. But, but Bill Shayberg makes a good point, and that is that in the first 29 stories in the very first edition, there's not one mention of the six steps. Okay. And it's only later when stories are la- a- added in the second edition, Jim Burwell's story and- Mm ... and Earl Treat's story that all of a sudden it's now, it's, it's documented that there are six steps. That's when it first appeared in the Big Book.

66:41

Mike But in the first 29 stories in the first edition, there's not one mention of those. Mm-hmm. Okay. You know, I thought that was a compelling- Yeah, yeah ... point. It, it is. But again, if you're researching, you know, you're looking for information that's going to validate what you want to share. And, you know, if you look at those 29 stories, how many people were sober for how long? What was their experience? How many have ever written anything? Who actually wrote the story? There's a lot of that stuff to, to look at. Sure. I mean, Bill Dodson, AA number three, he let Bill Wilson write his story, and it never was published until 1955, and Bill Dodson had already died. And, and all the stories in Akron, but for Bob's, were written by a journalist. Well, uh, yeah. Were definitely written. So. So there, uh, you know, again, I, I, I just, I don't know what to say. So to me, I t- I go with, with a lot of what I've been able to receive from the recordings and because I love to listen to these guys in their own words tell what it was.

68:00

Mike Now, Clarence Snyder and Jim Burwell tell stories that don't even sound at all like Bill W.'s story. So I think, again, that, that is kind of what makes the Dollar Bill story that I shared at the beginning so important. Mm-hmm. It's what angle are you looking at it from? Mike, I'm gonna leave. I love your talk. Thank you so much. Thank you, Bob. Thanks, Bob. Hey, Mike. Mike, I also- See you next week ... Mike, I'd also like to thank you for doing. You're really, really great. I love the book and I love, uh, I love this meeting. I just wanted to hit on one point, though. You know, uh, with, Ebby talks a little bit about, uh, in one of his talks, uh, I forget which one, I have just about all of them, uh, that it didn't take h- take, uh, place in the kitchen table. You know, it was upstairs in the, you know- Yeah ... uh, the third floor. But, uh, I just pulled out Lois Remembers, and on page 87, here's what Lois says.

69:14

Mike Says, "I came home from Low- Lowe's department store to find a sober Ed- Ebby earnestly talking with Bill in the kitchen." So her recollection is that they were at the kitchen, assuming at the kitchen table, so. Well, uh, and, and- It's Bill and, and his wife saying that. Yeah. Dave, that, that goes, um, very much with what Ebby said. Ebby said- Right ... Bill invited him in. They started a conversation, then Lois came home and cooked dinner. Okay? Then they went upstairs. They all had dinner, then they went upstairs. So, you know, I m- and again, it's, it's one- Yeah ... of those things where it's very difficult to know exactly what happened. Yeah. But the message doesn't change. Thanks, thanks a lot talking about, uh, Seabra Graves. I had a lot of good information about him. I wound up, uh, you know, uh, meeting one of his sponsees who was from the, uh, American Church over in Paris, and he gave me the transcripts of Bill Wilson's interview, uh, with Seabra in 19-... early mid 1950s or so. Beautiful. Uh, I, I love the history. Thank you again.

70:32

Moderator And if it wa- and Seabra later appeared, and he was instrumental in Ebby getting sober in 1951 or 2, when Ebby went to Texas. And he f- he actually helped finance Ebby going there, okay? And Ebby remained sober up until, you know, for 10 years. It's, it's a great, it's a great- Ebby spoke. Ebby spoke ... great, right. It's a great story how, uh, the, there's a connection between, uh, the Paris AA, where Se- Seabra was living at the time, and, uh, Charlie Milton, uh, who- Yeah ... who was a New York guy, went o- Yeah ... went over to Paris, and I love that connection too. Yeah. And it's really, really ooh. In, in, in my book, I actually talk about that. That Ebby- Beautiful ... Charlie put Ebby up in a hotel and gave him some money to drink- Right ... while he thought about m- whether or not he was gonna go to Texas. Yes. That worked out. But Ebby spoke at the AA International in 1955. 5. Right, '55. And he spoke at the AA International in 1960. Okay? Yeah. He, he wound up- They spoke- ...

71:46

Moderator picking up a drink right after that, after Chloe passed away ... it, it was some time a little bit after that. Correct. Yeah. So listen, uh, you know- Hey, Mike ... from 6:00 to 7:00. Yes. Wanted to s- wanted to say I love you. Great stuff. Are you doing this weekly now? Yes, we are. Great. I'll see you next week. Yeah. I love you and miss you. Thank you. So, uh- Bye ... we're, we're done for tonight. Um, the meeting's over. I'm happy to hang out with you guys for a while if anybody wants to visit. And, uh- Thank you so much. It's a great story how, uh, the, there's a connection between, uh, the Paris AA, where Se- Seabra was living at the time, and, uh, Charlie Milton, uh, who- Yeah ... who was a New York guy, went o- Yeah ... went over to Paris, and I love that connection too. Yeah. And it's really, really ooh. In, in, in my book, I actually talk about that. That Ebby- Beautiful ... Charlie put Ebby up in a hotel and gave him some money to drink- Right ...

73:01

Moderator while he thought about m- whether or not he was gonna go to Texas. Yes. That worked out. But Ebby spoke at the AA International in 1955. 5. Right, '55. And he spoke at the AA International in 1960. Okay? Yeah. He, he wound up- They spoke- ... picking up a drink right after that, after Chloe passed away ... it, it was some time a little bit after that. Correct. Yeah. So listen, uh, you know- Hey, Mike ... from 6:00 to 7:00. Yes. Wanted to s- wanted to say I love you. Great stuff. Are you doing this weekly now? Yes, we are. Great. I'll see you next week. Yeah. I love you and miss you. Thank you. So, uh- Bye ... we're, we're done for tonight. Um, the meeting's over. I'm happy to hang out with you guys for a while if anybody wants to visit. And, uh- Thank you so much.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

Dr. Bob and Bill W. Speak: AA’s 85th Anniversary — Tuesday Night History Workshop — June 19, 2020

Dr. Bob and Bill W. Speak: AA’s 85th Anniversary — Tuesday Night History Workshop — June 19, 2020

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