9-30-2025 Conversation with Mick M presented by Unknown Speaker – 2025-09-30

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Unknown Tuesday Night History Workshop • 2025

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Unknown ABOUT THIS WORKSHOP

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Unknown Unknown Speaker speaking on "9-30-2025 Conversation with Mick M" in Tuesday Night History Workshop (September 30, 2025). This recording is preserved in high-fidelity with interactive scrolling transcripts.

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Unknown Interactive Transcript

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[00 00:02.819 – 00:00:07.099] Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop.

0:16

[00 00:07.099 – 00:00:09.259] Thank you for joining us tonight.

0:18

[00 00:09.259 – 00:00:16.919] My name is Tim, and tonight is the last Tuesday of September, so it is our night for a conversation with a long-timer.

0:26

[00 00:16.919 – 00:00:20.640] And tonight we have Mick M.

0:28

[00 00:20.640 – 00:00:21.329] with us.

0:29

[00 00:21.329 – 00:00:26.019] Trying to get this going here.

0:31

[00 00:26.019 – 00:00:27.440] Uh, from California.

0:33

[00 00:27.440 – 00:00:32.020] And Mick's sobriety date is August 22nd, 1973.

0:35

[00 00:32.020 – 00:00:38.020] We meet every Tuesday night at the same time and at the same Zoom ID number.

0:41

[00 00:38.020 – 00:00:42.600] And next week we have Mike F.

0:43

[00 00:42.600 – 00:00:52.719] coming back to do part two of his presentation on the original six steps, and he will be diving into the Big Book, the first edition Big Book,

0:53

[00 00:52.719 – 00:00:56.899] to identify where those six steps can be seen in the book.

0:57

[00 00:56.899 – 00:01:07.159] This meeting is being recorded, and the audio from tonight's presentation as well as all of our past presentations can be found at recoveryspeakers.com.

1:05

[00 01:07.159 – 00:01:17.180] This meeting is not affiliated with any 12-step organization, although our goal is to focus on the history of AA and other 12-step

1:13

[00 01:17.180 – 00:01:17.900] fellowships.

1:14

[00 01:17.900 – 00:01:27.900] Re- recoveryspeakers.com is dedicated to preserving and making the audio history of AA and the 12-step

1:19

[00 01:27.900 – 00:01:31.340] movement available for everyone today and in the future.

1:23

[00 01:31.340 – 00:01:41.680] We share a daily email that features a different speaker talk from the Recovery Speakers audio library, and included

1:29

[00 01:41.680 – 00:01:50.859] in the daily emails are links to the recordings of this meeting as well as information about our upcoming history presentations and topics.

1:37

[00 01:50.859 – 00:01:55.700] And if you look on the screen, you can see a few flyers up there for the rest of October.

1:44

[00 01:55.700 – 00:02:05.760] And if you would like to receive our daily email, you can subscribe through the link I shared in the chat a couple minutes ago, or send me an

1:53

[00 02:05.760 – 00:02:11.819] email at info@recoveryspeakers.com and I will get you added to our email list.

1:59

[00 02:11.819 – 00:02:17.340] And Recovery Speakers is an official 501[c][3] public charity.

2:02

[00 02:17.340 – 00:02:26.900] If you are able to, we accept contributions which allow us to continue our work, and I have shared the different ways to make contributions in the chat.

2:11

[00 02:26.900 – 00:02:30.199] Or you can use the QR code that's up on the screen.

2:15

[00 02:30.199 – 00:02:40.219] And tonight we should have some time for Q&A, so if you have any questions for Mick, uh, please write them down and be prepared to ask questions

2:25

[00 02:40.219 – 00:02:41.539] at the end of the meeting.

2:27

[00 02:41.539 – 00:02:44.219] And that is it for me.

2:30

[00 02:44.219 – 00:02:46.639] I'm gonna go ahead and turn it right over to Penny.

2:34

[00 02:46.639 – 00:02:51.520] Thanks, Tim.

2:35

[00 02:51.520 – 00:02:53.219] Hi, y'all.

2:36

[00 02:53.219 – 00:02:53.840] I'm Penny P.

2:37

[00 02:53.840 – 00:03:02.439] I'm an alcoholic, and, uh, grateful to be here, um, your, uh, conversation leader for this evening.

2:43

[00 03:02.439 – 00:03:08.960] And I wanna thank Tim for, um, claiming his baseball team before turning on the recording.

2:48

[00 03:08.960 – 00:03:09.919] Thank you so much.

2:50

[00 03:09.919 – 00:03:15.219] I will follow suit and, and, and stay anonymous in that regard.

2:54

[00 03:15.219 – 00:03:25.400] Um, tonight I'm talking with Mick M., and, uh, Tim, if you wanna spotlight Mick and I, that would be great

3:01

[00 03:25.400 – 00:03:29.099] and, um, we'll get started.

3:03

[00 03:29.099 – 00:03:36.139] Um, so Mick, I- if you would like to, uh, introduce yourself, give us your name.

3:09

[00 03:36.139 – 00:03:41.039] Uh, we are recording, so first, uh, first name and initial only, please.

3:13

[00 03:41.039 – 00:03:51.099] And, um, where you're, where you're, uh, coming in from, your sobriety date, and any other basic information that you

3:20

[00 03:51.099 – 00:03:53.379] introduce yourself with in an AA meeting.

3:22

[00 03:53.379 – 00:03:55.000] I can do that.

3:24

[00 03:55.000 – 00:03:55.520] Hi, everybody.

3:25

[00 03:55.520 – 00:03:57.240] Mick Maher, addict, alcoholic.

3:27

[00 03:57.240 – 00:04:01.669] Sobriety date is August 22nd, 1973.

3:29

[00 04:01.669 – 00:04:07.340] To give you a reference point, that's 52 years if you don't like doing math problems.

3:34

[00 04:07.340 – 00:04:12.620] Um, the other thing to know about that is I got sober before light beer existed, so.

3:40

[00 04:12.620 – 00:04:19.899] I was 20 years old and I was on active duty in the Marine Corps when I got sober.

3:46

[00 04:19.899 – 00:04:21.339] Okay.

3:46

[00 04:21.339 – 00:04:28.560] So, um, so 20 years old and you're active duty in the Marine Corps.

3:51

[00 04:28.560 – 00:04:38.579] So probably the question, "Gee, Mick, what was going on on August 22nd, 1973, that you thought it would be a good idea to

3:59

[00 04:38.579 – 00:04:46.839] come to Alcoholics Anonymous?" Well, let, let me preface this by saying the lead-up to August 22nd- Okay ...

4:05

[00 04:46.839 – 00:04:47.980] is where the story is.

4:07

[00 04:47.980 – 00:04:51.579] And, uh, I never thought it was a good idea.

4:10

[00 04:51.579 – 00:05:00.120] However, the Marine Corps felt it would probably be a good way to avoid going to jail, and so they, they offered me...

4:18

[00 05:00.120 – 00:05:10.079] Uh, actually a Navy psychiatrist offered me a chance to either go to treatment or go to jail, and I was a 20-year-old knucklehead, so I actually had to think about it for a few minutes.

4:30

[00 05:10.079 – 00:05:11.839] Mm-hmm.

4:31

[00 05:11.839 – 00:05:13.720] I understand that.

4:32

[00 05:13.720 – 00:05:23.860] In the Big Book it says, you know, to die an alcoholic death or to do something about our problem, and the question is always, "Just how bad of an alcoholic

4:42

[00 05:23.860 – 00:05:26.500] death are we talking about here?" Yeah.

4:45

[00 05:26.500 – 00:05:29.560] So, um, so the Marine Corps suggested...

4:48

[00 05:29.560 – 00:05:32.139] And so did they put you through a treatment program?

4:51

[00 05:32.139 – 00:05:33.000] I think that was...

4:53

[00 05:33.000 – 00:05:40.040] I don't think the, the official program had really started yet in '73, or, or had it?

4:59

[00 05:40.040 – 00:05:41.079] It had, yeah.

5:00

[00 05:41.079 – 00:05:47.259] The Navy's alcoholism treatment services started somewhere in the late '60s up in Long Beach.

5:05

[00 05:47.259 – 00:05:48.129] Okay.

5:06

[00 05:48.129 – 00:05:51.459] In, uh, they call it Dry Dock 1, was the original one.

5:10

[00 05:51.459 – 00:05:52.920] It was an old Quonset hut.

5:12

[00 05:52.920 – 00:05:56.959] Moved into the hospital in Long Beach and was there for years.

5:16

[00 05:56.959 – 00:05:57.769] Okay.

5:17

[00 05:57.769 – 00:06:03.459] And, uh, so when I came in in '73, it was pretty well developed.

5:22

[00 06:03.459 – 00:06:06.120] They had treatment centers all over the world.

5:25

[00 06:06.120 – 00:06:06.658] Okay.

5:25

[00 06:06.658 – 00:06:09.319] And, uh, some of them more formal than others.

5:29

[00 06:09.319 – 00:06:18.560] The one I went to, I was originally scheduled to go to one in Great Lakes, Illinois, a rather large one, but I had to prove to them that I wasn't that bad yet.

5:40

[00 06:18.560 – 00:06:23.220] And, uh, six days later after getting two DUI...

5:43

[00 06:23.220 – 00:06:28.300] Well, I got caught one DUI, and the other one I was so drunk I passed out during the breath test.

5:50

[00 06:28.300 – 00:06:32.930] So, so they had to reduce it to a wet reckless, 'cause let's be honest- Mm ...

5:56

[00 06:32.930 – 00:06:34.300] I wasn't a gifted drinker.

5:58

[00 06:34.300 – 00:06:42.160] And, uh, so what ended up happening is they decided I wasn't gonna last long enough to get to the treatment center in Great Lakes.

6:06

[00 06:42.160 – 00:06:42.939] Mm.

6:07

[00 06:42.939 – 00:06:49.800] And they changed my orders and sent me to the one down here at, uh, Balboa Hospital, San Diego area.

6:14

[00 06:49.800 – 00:06:54.060] So you were, were you, um, posted in, uh, San Diego at the time?

6:19

[00 06:54.060 – 00:06:57.680] Uh, yeah, I'd just gotten relieved of my duties.

6:22

[00 06:57.680 – 00:06:58.879] I was a drill instructor.

6:24

[00 06:58.879 – 00:07:02.240] Guys with the funny hats and the yellow lot guys.

6:27

[00 07:02.240 – 00:07:07.480] And, um, I, I'd gotten booted off the drill field because of my drinking.

6:32

[00 07:08.541 – 00:07:09.161] My goodness ...

6:33

[00 07:09.161 – 00:07:09.601] and yeah.

6:34

[00 07:09.601 – 00:07:19.741] So I ended up, uh, waiting for orders to go to the treatment center, and as it turns out, I was able to go in earlier than

6:43

[00 07:19.741 – 00:07:21.461] expected because of my drinking.

6:45

[00 07:21.461 – 00:07:28.631] Uh, my last- My last drink was actually on August 21st, '73.

6:49

[00 07:28.631 – 00:07:38.661] Um, I had, uh, I had one last attempt to prove that I could control my drinking, and to do that I went to the bowling alley

6:58

[00 07:38.661 – 00:07:39.701] on board the base.

7:00

[00 07:39.701 – 00:07:40.580] Mm-hmm.

7:01

[00 07:40.580 – 00:07:42.481] I had 90 cents in my pocket.

7:03

[00 07:42.481 – 00:07:53.401] So Budweiser was 45 cents a bottle, and after I drank those two bottles, I walked away and said, "See, I can quit any time I want to." Yeah,

7:12

[00 07:53.401 – 00:08:01.191] I was gonna say 90 cents in 1973 on a military base, you could get kind of drunk on 90 cents on a military base- You could, yeah ...

7:21

[00 08:01.191 – 00:08:02.501] in 1973.

7:21

[00 08:02.501 – 00:08:08.701] So, um, so what was tr- what was treatment like in 1973?

7:25

[00 08:08.701 – 00:08:12.921] You came in in, uh, San Diego at, at Dry Dock One?

7:29

[00 08:12.921 – 00:08:14.561] Actually, I came...

7:31

[00 08:14.561 – 00:08:15.821] Dry Dock One was Long Beach.

7:33

[00 08:15.821 – 00:08:18.901] I came in at what was called the Alcohol Rehab Unit.

7:37

[00 08:18.901 – 00:08:19.781] It was a hospital.

7:39

[00 08:19.781 – 00:08:20.211] Okay.

7:39

[00 08:20.211 – 00:08:21.541] The Balboa Naval Hospital.

7:41

[00 08:21.541 – 00:08:24.081] I was there for a total of six weeks.

7:44

[00 08:24.081 – 00:08:26.621] It, it was a very strange experience.

7:47

[00 08:26.621 – 00:08:32.221] I was the only Marine, and, and pretty much everybody there were these really old people.

7:52

[00 08:32.221 – 00:08:34.361] I mean, some of them were, like, 35.

7:55

[00 08:34.361 – 00:08:34.781] Yeah.

7:55

[00 08:34.781 – 00:08:39.561] They, they're antiques, and I'm 20, and the only Marine.

7:59

[00 08:39.561 – 00:08:48.761] And we had a giant, uh, what we used to call squad bay, just a big open area with, uh, 16 beds in it.

8:06

[00 08:48.761 – 00:08:55.501] And, you know, we'd pile in every night into these, what we used to call the druggie buggies.

8:13

[00 08:55.501 – 00:08:59.861] Yeah, these big, white, ugly vans, and be driven out to AA meetings.

8:17

[00 08:59.861 – 00:09:05.761] And half the time I think the staff were just trying to keep us entertained between AA meetings.

8:23

[00 09:05.761 – 00:09:06.641] Yeah.

8:24

[00 09:06.641 – 00:09:15.241] So you were the only Marine, so I'm guessing the rest were mostly Navy, or were it, was it mixed services?

8:31

[00 09:15.241 – 00:09:16.301] It was all Navy.

8:33

[00 09:16.301 – 00:09:17.220] All Navy.

8:34

[00 09:17.220 – 00:09:18.781] Uh, the other 15 guys were Navy.

8:36

[00 09:18.781 – 00:09:28.861] Uh, some of the treatment centers, like the w- the big one that they had down at, uh, the Naval station at 32nd Street, they had, God, I want to say 80 or

8:47

[00 09:28.861 – 00:09:29.821] 90 beds down there.

8:48

[00 09:29.821 – 00:09:33.561] They used to take in, uh, Coast Guard as well.

8:51

[00 09:33.561 – 00:09:38.261] Every now and then they'd bring in somebody from the Army or the Air Force.

8:57

[00 09:38.261 – 00:09:38.561] Yeah.

8:57

[00 09:38.561 – 00:09:40.801] For security reasons usually.

8:59

[00 09:40.801 – 00:09:43.941] So- So I w- I went to meetings.

9:02

[00 09:43.941 – 00:09:54.321] I got sober in Honolulu in, uh, '77, four years after you, and, um, I was not military, but I did go to meetings at, um, Pearl Harbor's ARD.

9:11

[00 09:54.321 – 00:09:54.801] Hmm.

9:12

[00 09:54.801 – 00:09:56.741] So I have a...

9:14

[00 09:56.741 – 00:10:00.641] And one of my best friends is, uh, retired Navy, so.

9:18

[00 10:00.641 – 00:10:00.790] Cool.

9:18

[00 10:00.790 – 00:10:04.971] Um, so what was treatment like in those days?

9:22

[00 10:04.971 – 00:10:15.441] How were you introduced to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous when you came into treatment, um, at the facility, and

9:28

[00 10:15.441 – 00:10:17.321] how were you introduced to...

9:30

[00 10:17.321 – 00:10:26.341] Did they give you an introduction before they took you to these AA meetings, or did they depend on the people in the AA meetings to talk to you about AA?

9:41

[00 10:26.341 – 00:10:30.721] When I checked into the treatment center, I had to be there at 8:00 in the morning.

9:46

[00 10:30.721 – 00:10:36.361] Uh, I had actually been there two days before, and they had- Why?

9:51

[00 10:36.361 – 00:10:43.781] Well, they wanted to do an early assessment, and, uh, 'cause they only admitted people on Wednesdays.

9:56

[00 10:43.781 – 00:10:45.021] So I went down on...

9:58

[00 10:45.021 – 00:10:46.061] Yeah, they were very strict.

10:00

[00 10:46.061 – 00:10:53.381] I went down on a, um, on Monday to meet with them, and they offered me these little white pills to help me stay sober.

10:09

[00 10:53.381 – 00:10:56.021] I was kind of excited, 'cause I thought it was speed.

10:13

[00 10:56.021 – 00:10:57.881] Uh, apparently it was not.

10:15

[00 10:57.881 – 00:10:59.321] It was Antabuse.

10:16

[00 10:59.321 – 00:11:02.721] And I, I told them I didn't need their Antabuse.

10:19

[00 11:02.721 – 00:11:08.421] And, uh, so when I checked in on Wednesday morning, you know, it was the same drill.

10:25

[00 11:08.421 – 00:11:18.141] We go to all of these group counseling sessions where we're supposed to talk about our feelings, something that I had no experience with, and had less desire to learn.

10:35

[00 11:18.141 – 00:11:21.381] And then there was some didactic presentations.

10:38

[00 11:21.381 – 00:11:24.641] There was this great movie that we got to see.

10:41

[00 11:24.641 – 00:11:28.241] It was called, um, Chalk Talk by Father Martin.

10:45

[00 11:28.241 – 00:11:29.240] Father Martin.

10:46

[00 11:29.240 – 00:11:29.471] Yeah.

10:46

[00 11:29.471 – 00:11:33.221] And it was originally filmed by a Navy photographer.

10:50

[00 11:33.221 – 00:11:33.601] Yeah.

10:50

[00 11:33.601 – 00:11:34.741] The original one was.

10:52

[00 11:34.741 – 00:11:38.901] So I, uh, I loved watching that, 'cause he was so funny.

10:56

[00 11:38.901 – 00:11:43.361] But, you know, it, I didn't see myself in any of that.

11:00

[00 11:43.361 – 00:11:44.701] I didn't think I was that bad.

11:03

[00 11:44.701 – 00:11:48.081] And then, you know, the usual day.

11:05

[00 11:48.081 – 00:11:54.981] I'd go out, I'd go run couple of miles on my break, and then come back, and then we'd go out to a meeting.

11:14

[00 11:54.981 – 00:11:56.041] Just throw us in a van.

11:16

[00 11:56.041 – 00:12:06.000] And there weren't any number of meetings, which frankly were not very, uh, receptive to having a group of people coming from a treatment center.

11:24

[00 12:06.000 – 00:12:06.681] Yeah.

11:25

[00 12:06.681 – 00:12:09.701] And there's some areas where I'd say that hasn't changed much.

11:29

[00 12:09.701 – 00:12:11.261] There are- I still see that.

11:31

[00 12:11.261 – 00:12:11.781] Yeah.

11:32

[00 12:11.781 – 00:12:13.941] Yeah, there are areas where it hasn't changed.

11:35

[00 12:13.941 – 00:12:14.371] Mm.

11:35

[00 12:14.371 – 00:12:17.421] Uh, Father Martin did so much work with the military.

11:39

[00 12:17.421 – 00:12:20.781] He worked so closely with the military in developing their program.

11:43

[00 12:20.781 – 00:12:26.781] Did you ever have the opportunity to see him do his presentation live, and, and to actually meet him?

11:49

[00 12:26.781 – 00:12:33.061] Uh, I met him several times, and I saw him filming one of his other movies that he had done, so yeah.

11:57

[00 12:33.061 – 00:12:33.381] Yeah.

11:57

[00 12:33.381 – 00:12:43.381] You know, you're asking about what it was like back then, and I walked into a meeting here in Poway, which is used to be kind of a country town, you know, hick

12:08

[00 12:43.381 – 00:12:43.661] town.

12:09

[00 12:43.661 – 00:12:45.881] Now it's kind of an affluent area.

12:11

[00 12:45.881 – 00:12:50.781] But I walked in, and I was 20, and like I said, everybody there was really old.

12:17

[00 12:50.781 – 00:12:54.461] And, uh, probably some of them 40, 45 years old.

12:20

[00 12:54.461 – 00:12:54.981] Yeah.

12:21

[00 12:54.981 – 00:12:57.421] And, uh, they were antiques in my mind.

12:23

[00 12:57.421 – 00:13:04.151] And so I, I walked in, a 20-year-old kid in the Marine Corps, and I got a lot of blowback.

12:30

[00 13:04.151 – 00:13:09.121] You know, the usual, "Boy, I spilt more than you ever drank." You know, that kind of nonsense.

12:36

[00 13:09.121 – 00:13:15.101] And I pointed out to one fella that if he hadn't been such a slob, he might've gotten there as young as me.

12:44

[00 13:15.101 – 00:13:20.301] Uh, I had one f- and this is the part that's always fascinated me.

12:49

[00 13:20.301 – 00:13:25.680] I had one fella tell me that because I owned a watch, I actually had a watch collection.

12:55

[00 13:25.680 – 00:13:25.991] Yeah.

12:56

[00 13:25.991 – 00:13:36.001] That because I had a watch, I hadn't hurt enough, and I thought, "That's just infuriating." So I went to the guy that eventually became my first sponsor, a

13:06

[00 13:36.001 – 00:13:44.841] character named Jim, and I asked Jim about, you know, "Is it true if you own a watch you can't be in AA?" And Jim said, "You know, I'm really busy.

13:16

[00 13:44.841 – 00:13:46.881] I want you to do me a favor.

13:19

[00 13:46.881 – 00:13:49.161] I, there's something about that, I think, in the Big Book.

13:23

[00 13:49.161 – 00:13:59.401] You should read the Big Book, and then remind me where the heck that's, that is about watches." And I'm a speed reader, and I, and so I just zoomed through the book,

13:34

[00 13:59.401 – 00:14:03.721] and I have really good retention and everything, so I get through the entire thing.

13:39

[00 14:03.721 – 00:14:08.001] There's not a damn thing about watches in the Big Book.

13:43

[00 14:08.001 – 00:14:09.541] I was furious.

13:44

[00 14:09.541 – 00:14:12.940] More at Jim than I was at the guy.

13:47

[00 14:12.940 – 00:14:16.841] And, um, so I always tell people whenever I re-

13:51

[00 14:17.199 – 00:14:19.659] talk in a meeting, it's like, "Read the book.

13:54

[00 14:19.659 – 00:14:20.589] That's where it is.

13:56

[00 14:20.589 – 00:14:21.569] That's where it's all at.

13:58

[00 14:21.569 – 00:14:25.639] The rest of it's all just interesting opinions and observations." Yeah.

14:02

[00 14:25.639 – 00:14:27.309] The book has the program in it.

14:04

[00 14:27.309 – 00:14:29.269] And Jim just laughed at that.

14:06

[00 14:29.269 – 00:14:30.889] He thought that was so funny.

14:09

[00 14:30.889 – 00:14:35.129] He had an annoying way of doing things with me that first year of sobriety, so.

14:14

[00 14:35.129 – 00:14:38.089] Boy, those sponsors back then, they really did.

14:17

[00 14:38.089 – 00:14:48.109] You know, I, I, uh, there was a woman I used to go to, uh, was not my sponsor at the time, um, with questions like that, and she'd do the same thing except

14:28

[00 14:48.109 – 00:14:49.569] she didn't tell me to read the whole thing.

14:32

[00 14:49.569 – 00:14:51.329] She'd give me 10 or 12 pages.

14:34

[00 14:51.329 – 00:14:51.879] Right.

14:34

[00 14:51.879 – 00:15:01.909] And when I asked her how she knew the book so well, 'cause I always found an answer, she said, "Penny, I don't know the book that well, but you're so selfish and self-centered, I figure I give you

14:47

[00 15:01.909 – 00:15:03.059] 10 to 12 pages- Got it ...

14:49

[00 15:03.059 – 00:15:08.329] you'll find yourself in there somewhere." And she was right, you know?

14:53

[00 15:08.329 – 00:15:09.369] Yeah.

14:54

[00 15:09.369 – 00:15:09.399] Yeah.

14:54

[00 15:09.399 – 00:15:09.998] We came in- That's great ...

14:56

[00 15:09.998 – 00:15:13.529] with some really, some really great characters.

14:59

[00 15:13.529 – 00:15:15.029] Really great characters.

15:00

[00 15:15.029 – 00:15:16.129] You know, it really was.

15:02

[00 15:16.129 – 00:15:18.809] I, I remember my very first meeting we went to.

15:06

[00 15:18.809 – 00:15:22.829] Here in San Diego, they used to have what was called, uh, AA Central.

15:10

[00 15:22.829 – 00:15:29.029] It was a Wednesday night meeting at the War Memorial Building in Balboa Park, a big park we have here in town.

15:18

[00 15:29.029 – 00:15:33.449] And I, uh, I remember going in there, and I sat in the very back.

15:23

[00 15:33.449 – 00:15:37.909] It's a massive auditorium, and I'm in inventory row.

15:26

[00 15:37.909 – 00:15:39.449] I was very good at taking inventory.

15:29

[00 15:39.449 – 00:15:42.449] Not mine, mind you, but everybody else's.

15:32

[00 15:42.449 – 00:15:44.669] And so I could do that.

15:34

[00 15:44.669 – 00:15:50.399] And I sat back there, and people would walk back into the kitchen area, and they'd come out.

15:40

[00 15:50.399 – 00:15:53.479] They'd have coffee, they'd have cake or cookies, whatever.

15:43

[00 15:53.479 – 00:15:58.579] I didn't have a penny to my name, 'cause the night before I'd spent my last 90 cents.

15:49

[00 15:58.579 – 00:16:04.249] And, uh, nobody told me that coffee is free in an AA meeting.

15:54

[00 16:04.249 – 00:16:09.769] So, and, uh, so but I'm watch- And then we had this lady get up.

15:59

[00 16:09.769 – 00:16:17.229] She was the speaker, the main speaker, and she shared about the fact she had 20 years of sobriety and how she loved everybody.

16:06

[00 16:17.229 – 00:16:23.449] I thought, "Oh my God, what have I gotten into now?" So that was pretty funny back then.

16:13

[00 16:23.449 – 00:16:30.889] I look back and, you know, I, I, I'm abso- absolutely convinced my first year of sobriety was unmarred by a day of growth.

16:21

[00 16:30.889 – 00:16:39.149] And, um, so but Jim had this really very interesting way of approaching.

16:25

[00 16:39.149 – 00:16:43.389] He wasn't one of these Bible-thumping type guys, big book thumpers.

16:29

[00 16:43.389 – 00:16:53.389] He didn't tell me what I had to do and everything, but he'd make suggestions that when I'd think about them, made a lot of sense, which was very

16:39

[00 16:53.389 – 00:16:54.049] annoying.

16:40

[00 16:54.049 – 00:16:56.269] And- Can you give us an example?

16:42

[00 16:56.269 – 00:16:57.489] Absolutely.

16:43

[00 16:57.489 – 00:17:05.419] Everybody's talking about how while I was in treat- six-week treatment program, people were already on their 13th step by, you know, by the time ...

16:51

[00 17:05.419 – 00:17:06.169] Right ...

16:52

[00 17:06.169 – 00:17:07.709] you know, they'd been there a week.

16:54

[00 17:07.709 – 00:17:11.489] And I, I just, I struggled with the first step, you know?

16:59

[00 17:11.489 – 00:17:13.629] Admitting my life was powerless over alcohol.

17:01

[00 17:13.629 – 00:17:14.958] How does that work?

17:03

[00 17:14.958 – 00:17:19.869] My friend Jay-Z there, she knows this story, 'cause I've said it before at meetings.

17:08

[00 17:19.869 – 00:17:30.208] What I, what happened is Jim handed me a three-ring binder with, filled with sheets of paper, blank paper, and he had me write a, a narrative

17:17

[00 17:30.208 – 00:17:31.649] about my drinking adventures.

17:19

[00 17:31.649 – 00:17:41.689] What happened before I went drinking, what my thinking was, you know, what my, what happened when I was drinking, and, you know, what were the consequences,

17:28

[00 17:41.689 – 00:17:44.178] and what allowed me to think the next time was gonna be different.

17:32

[00 17:44.178 – 00:17:51.889] So by way of example, uh, I had this incredibly strong desire to become an officer in the Marine Corps.

17:39

[00 17:51.889 – 00:17:54.609] I was an enlisted guy, but I wanted to be an officer.

17:43

[00 17:54.609 – 00:18:04.699] And I went to a, a, a party, a unit party, and I got really hammered, which was my norm, and I got into a fistfight with

17:52

[00 18:04.699 – 00:18:05.869] a junior officer.

17:54

[00 18:05.869 – 00:18:07.949] That's a big no-no in the Marine Corps.

17:57

[00 18:07.949 – 00:18:14.649] And he was drunk, and nobody really knew who started the fight, but I do know what happened afterwards.

18:03

[00 18:14.649 – 00:18:21.029] I was told I was too immature to become a Marine Corps officer, and my, uh, application got pulled.

18:10

[00 18:21.029 – 00:18:31.059] So I, I had to write that stuff out, and but I had told Jim, I, you know, I was a wise guy, and I had told Jim that, you know, I didn't really remember a lot

18:22

[00 18:31.059 – 00:18:33.099] of this stuff, 'cause I was a blackout drinker.

18:25

[00 18:33.099 – 00:18:33.829] Mm-hmm.

18:26

[00 18:33.829 – 00:18:39.829] What I think is pretty funny is, and then he reminded me I have two tattoos that I don't remember getting.

18:33

[00 18:39.829 – 00:18:51.029] And but the part about it was at the end of the s- the story, it wasn't just that I woke up in a strange city with a strange situation

18:43

[00 18:51.029 – 00:18:54.489] and had, you know, blood all over my arm from the tattoo.

18:47

[00 18:54.489 – 00:19:00.389] It's that by the time I got back to the base, I was telling everybody what a great party I'd had.

18:54

[00 19:00.389 – 00:19:05.229] I met this great young lady, got this really cool tattoo, had a ball.

18:59

[00 19:05.229 – 00:19:12.429] And as I used my first step going forward, it took me a full year to write it out in great detail.

19:06

[00 19:12.429 – 00:19:19.909] What it revealed to me is, although I never thought of myself as a liar, clearly I was lying to these pe- I was lying to myself.

19:16

[00 19:19.909 – 00:19:20.859] Mm-hmm.

19:16

[00 19:20.859 – 00:19:29.969] Uh, I was, before I joined the Marine Corps, a friend of mine and I, we used to steal booze from his dad, or I'd steal it from my mom or whatever.

19:27

[00 19:29.969 – 00:19:30.749] We could get it.

19:28

[00 19:30.749 – 00:19:35.559] And I never thought of myself as a thief, but you know, all of this stuff- ...

19:34

[00 19:35.559 – 00:19:41.529] starts showing up in my, uh, you know, fourth step a little later, 'cause it was right there.

19:40

[00 19:41.529 – 00:19:42.149] Yeah.

19:41

[00 19:42.149 – 00:19:52.189] It's interesting, isn't it, when, um, when the, uh, the perspective that, that we have of ourselves, and then when we have to put

19:49

[00 19:52.189 – 00:19:58.029] pen to paper and then share it with another human being, that they get a whole different picture.

19:55

[00 19:58.029 – 00:20:02.689] I s- I told my sponsor that I borrowed money from petty cash.

20:00

[00 20:02.689 – 00:20:09.609] She, we talked about it, and she said, "Penny, the law, law enforcement calls that embezzlement." Mm-hmm.

20:05

[00 20:09.609 – 00:20:11.349] That's, that's...

20:06

[00 20:11.349 – 00:20:12.448] No, no.

20:07

[00 20:12.448 – 00:20:13.969] It was petty cash.

20:09

[00 20:13.969 – 00:20:21.149] Well, that, I mean, that's petty- So before, be- before I forget, I may forget to ask this question at the end.

20:16

[00 20:21.149 – 00:20:23.229] So you wanted to be an officer.

20:19

[00 20:23.229 – 00:20:25.878] I, I wanna know, did you retire from the military?

20:23

[00 20:25.878 – 00:20:27.189] Did you make it a career?

20:25

[00 20:27.189 – 00:20:28.489] And at what rank?

20:26

[00 20:28.489 – 00:20:30.089] I did not make a career.

20:29

[00 20:30.089 – 00:20:32.229] I spent just under seven years.

20:31

[00 20:32.229 – 00:20:33.049] Okay.

20:32

[00 20:33.049 – 00:20:40.429] Um, it kind of, near the end what happened is I was part of the team that did the evacuation of Saigon in '75.

20:40

[00 20:40.429 – 00:20:43.329] I was sober during the process.

20:42

[00 20:43.329 – 00:20:54.189] Um, and I had a chance to go to the Navy Alcoholism Treatment School to learn how to be a counselor, and

20:49

[00 20:54.189 – 00:20:56.379] I, uh, I opted to do that.

20:52

[00 20:56.379 – 00:21:06.709] And so my last two years in the Marine Corps, I spent at Camp Pendleton at the alcohol rehab unit at the hospital, running a 20-bed treatment center for young Marines, most

21:03

[00 21:06.709 – 00:21:08.709] combat veterans coming out of Vietnam.

21:05

[00 21:08.709 – 00:21:09.529] Wow.

21:06

[00 21:09.529 – 00:21:13.949] And, uh, I got out of the Marine Corps as a staff sergeant, an E6.

21:11

[00 21:13.949 – 00:21:16.199] That's three stripes and a rocker.

21:13

[00 21:16.199 – 00:21:22.909] And I was already eligible for E7, but I just couldn't see myself staying in any longer.

21:19

[00 21:22.909 – 00:21:22.919] Yeah.

21:20

[00 21:22.919 – 00:21:25.309] I had worked my way out of two commissioning programs-

21:23

[00 21:26.098 – 00:21:29.178] Uh, I had other things I wanted to do with my life.

21:27

[00 21:29.178 – 00:21:31.518] I had orders to Okinawa.

21:29

[00 21:31.518 – 00:21:32.978] I didn't wanna go to Okinawa.

21:32

[00 21:32.978 – 00:21:41.218] So I, uh, I got out, went to school at night while I worked full time, and got a bachelor's degree at night.

21:39

[00 21:41.218 – 00:21:46.208] And had my meetings that I'd go to and, you know, found...

21:43

[00 21:46.208 – 00:21:48.358] I had to build a recovery community.

21:46

[00 21:48.358 – 00:21:49.338] Yeah.

21:47

[00 21:49.338 – 00:21:56.758] And that's, that's the hardest thing is building a recovery community, 'cause there just weren't many young people back then, you know?

21:54

[00 21:56.758 – 00:22:01.118] So my recovery community was a bunch of people in their 30s for the most- Yeah.

22:00

[00 22:01.118 – 00:22:01.798] Yeah.

22:00

[00 22:01.798 – 00:22:06.638] It was, it was, depending on where we were, it was, um, how we found that.

22:06

[00 22:06.638 – 00:22:10.258] So, um, so you got this sponsor, Jim.

22:09

[00 22:10.258 – 00:22:10.868] Yep.

22:09

[00 22:10.868 – 00:22:17.618] And he's got, he's got you writing about your first step, and, um, and he's got you already reading the Big Book.

22:17

[00 22:17.618 – 00:22:18.438] So did...

22:18

[00 22:18.438 – 00:22:23.938] When you were new, were you using the 12 and 12 also, or was it mostly Big Book?

22:23

[00 22:23.938 – 00:22:24.378] Yeah.

22:24

[00 22:24.378 – 00:22:25.158] Just the Big Book.

22:26

[00 22:25.158 – 00:22:26.398] Okay.

22:26

[00 22:26.398 – 00:22:27.708] You, you know, I...

22:28

[00 22:27.708 – 00:22:36.718] There were books out, early books, some I think out of Hazelden, where people, you know, follow this format with the four columns and this, that, and the other thing for your four.

22:39

[00 22:36.718 – 00:22:39.598] I didn't do it that way.

22:41

[00 22:39.598 – 00:22:43.838] Um, I did it the way Jim suggested.

22:44

[00 22:43.838 – 00:22:46.398] And I mean, there was a lot of things.

22:47

[00 22:46.398 – 00:22:49.018] Like, I s- I'm recovering Catholic, you know.

22:50

[00 22:49.018 – 00:22:51.318] I gave up on bingo and kneepads years ago.

22:53

[00 22:51.318 – 00:22:56.098] And, uh, so I struggled with the whole idea of a higher power.

22:58

[00 22:56.098 – 00:22:59.898] And, uh, you know, Jim would make suggestions.

23:01

[00 22:59.898 – 00:23:06.758] "Go down to the beach, make the waves go backwards." And I tried.

23:05

[00 23:06.758 – 00:23:08.378] I really, truly tried.

23:07

[00 23:08.378 – 00:23:09.098] Yeah.

23:08

[00 23:09.098 – 00:23:14.598] I just couldn't make the waves go backwards, so there's clearly a power greater than myself.

23:13

[00 23:14.598 – 00:23:22.078] Now, I'm one of those lucky guys, I've never felt a compelling need to dig into it deeply.

23:19

[00 23:22.078 – 00:23:27.318] I know that, uh, you know, Bill Wilson was all into all of this spiritual explore.

23:25

[00 23:27.318 – 00:23:28.198] I don't care.

23:26

[00 23:28.198 – 00:23:30.498] I don't need to have a name.

23:29

[00 23:30.498 – 00:23:31.558] I don't have to have...

23:31

[00 23:31.558 – 00:23:38.218] All I know is there's a power greater than myself, and it sure as hell gotta be something other than me, 'cause it's not me.

23:39

[00 23:38.218 – 00:23:44.698] I can stay sober with all of the friends that I've developed, with my meetings, with the service work that I do.

23:47

[00 23:44.698 – 00:23:47.578] Uh, but I couldn't do it alone.

23:49

[00 23:47.578 – 00:23:57.598] So, um, so we've talk- so we've really, you've already talked about the first step and a

23:55

[00 23:57.598 – 00:23:58.918] little bit about the third.

23:57

[00 23:58.918 – 00:24:01.138] You've talked a little bit about the fourth.

24:00

[00 24:01.138 – 00:24:04.378] Um, you sat down with Jim and did a fifth step?

24:04

[00 24:04.378 – 00:24:05.238] I did.

24:05

[00 24:05.238 – 00:24:09.878] And what, what was your feeling going into it?

24:08

[00 24:09.878 – 00:24:11.578] Did you hold anything back?

24:10

[00 24:11.578 – 00:24:13.798] How did, how did that fifth step go?

24:13

[00 24:13.798 – 00:24:16.578] I didn't hold, intentionally hold anything back.

24:15

[00 24:16.578 – 00:24:21.198] Um, Jim was a clergy member, so it was...

24:19

[00 24:21.198 – 00:24:23.458] I knew he couldn't tell anybody anyway.

24:21

[00 24:23.458 – 00:24:32.118] So I always recommend that to people, it's like, get a clergy member, hire an attorney, give him a buck, make him sit and listen to you.

24:30

[00 24:32.118 – 00:24:35.678] 'Cause they can't, they can't rat you out.

24:33

[00 24:35.678 – 00:24:38.438] Um, it was humiliating.

24:35

[00 24:38.438 – 00:24:47.618] Um, as I looked through all of the, the, the first step to build my, you know- Mm-hmm ...

24:41

[00 24:47.618 – 00:24:50.888] uh, fourth step with, as I looked through there, it just...

24:45

[00 24:50.888 – 00:24:54.398] I was not the man that I believed I should be or could be.

24:50

[00 24:54.398 – 00:24:57.478] I mean, that's the bottom line.

24:52

[00 24:57.478 – 00:24:59.078] And how did...

24:53

[00 24:59.078 – 00:25:04.998] So the first time you went through the steps, how did six, what did six and seven look like for you?

25:00

[00 25:04.998 – 00:25:11.118] You know, it's, th- that's the, a nebulous kind of thing for me.

25:05

[00 25:11.118 – 00:25:11.478] You know?

25:06

[00 25:11.478 – 00:25:12.228] Okay.

25:06

[00 25:12.228 – 00:25:13.638] Became, "Well, okay, I'm willing.

25:08

[00 25:13.638 – 00:25:14.358] Take it over, God.

25:10

[00 25:14.358 – 00:25:15.118] Go away now.

25:11

[00 25:15.118 – 00:25:19.638] Get back to me when you're finished on it." Uh, you know, it's a daily process.

25:17

[00 25:19.638 – 00:25:25.038] I, I've never been one to really be able to describe spirituality.

25:21

[00 25:25.038 – 00:25:29.698] I, I went to a meeting not long ago, and this guy's talking about his spiritual growth and development.

25:28

[00 25:29.698 – 00:25:32.048] It's like, good Lord, he's the second coming of the pope.

25:31

[00 25:32.048 – 00:25:35.538] And I, I mean, I'm impressed by that, for people to get that.

25:36

[00 25:35.538 – 00:25:43.478] For me, the only way I know if I'm growing spiritually or whatever you wanna call it, is by the service work I do for others.

25:45

[00 25:43.478 – 00:25:44.817] Okay.

25:45

[00 25:44.817 – 00:25:53.718] And, uh, you know, if I'm not involved in service for others, eh, I don't think of myself as being all that spiritual or growing.

25:54

[00 25:53.718 – 00:26:00.298] So let's go into service, because when you and I talked on the phone, you, you talked a little bit about that.

26:01

[00 26:00.298 – 00:26:04.558] Um, a lot of times, you know, it was Paul C.

26:05

[00 26:04.558 – 00:26:09.258] That, that gave me your contact information, and- And by the way, I'll get even with him.

26:11

[00 26:09.258 – 00:26:13.618] I'm sure you will.

26:13

[00 26:13.618 – 00:26:17.318] Um, I will be sending him a thank you note.

26:16

[00 26:17.318 – 00:26:27.398] Um, but, um, so, so often, because it's Paul, um, I often mistakenly make the assumption, which

26:22

[00 26:27.398 – 00:26:34.918] I know I shouldn't do, that your service was probably general service, only because we know Paul's, Paul's service story.

26:29

[00 26:34.918 – 00:26:37.128] S- but I understand that was...

26:31

[00 26:37.128 – 00:26:47.338] What was the first service commitment you got, and then what, what have you gotten into, um, with regard to service since you've been sober for 52

26:40

[00 26:47.338 – 00:26:47.778] years?

26:40

[00 26:47.778 – 00:26:52.938] Paul C., uh, came into the young people's meeting.

26:44

[00 26:52.938 – 00:26:55.258] There's a story behind how I got there.

26:47

[00 26:55.258 – 00:26:55.978] Good.

26:47

[00 26:55.978 – 00:26:56.498] Tell it.

26:48

[00 26:56.498 – 00:27:03.868] Well, I'd had a bad day at work in the Marine Corps, and, uh- ...

26:53

[00 27:03.868 – 00:27:05.798] I'd gotten blown up, basically.

26:55

[00 27:05.798 – 00:27:06.378] Oof.

26:56

[00 27:06.378 – 00:27:07.338] So that's a bad day.

26:58

[00 27:07.338 – 00:27:13.938] And the Navy corpsman that came and got me, and got me loaded onto the helicopter saved, in my opinion, saved my life.

27:05

[00 27:13.938 – 00:27:14.818] Great guy.

27:06

[00 27:14.818 – 00:27:18.378] And so he got a lot of free booze out of me for that.

27:11

[00 27:18.378 – 00:27:26.898] About a year and a half after I'd seen him the last time, or a year after I'd seen him the last time, I get a call from him on a Friday night.

27:22

[00 27:26.898 – 00:27:31.808] I was just about a year sober, feeling very sorry for myself, decided to drink.

27:27

[00 27:31.808 – 00:27:40.178] And Doc Blue was his name, and Doc called me up and said, "Hey, you wanna go down to Pacific Beach?" Great place to drink, by the way.

27:37

[00 27:40.178 – 00:27:50.198] So I said, "You bet." And we're driving down Grand Avenue, Main Street, in, in that area, and we get down and I'm thinking, "Oh my God." We come up to what's called Cass

27:48

[00 27:50.198 – 00:27:50.518] Street.

27:49

[00 27:50.518 – 00:27:52.118] Cross street is Cass.

27:50

[00 27:52.118 – 00:27:56.698] And I thought, "Good Lord, if he turns right, there's an alano club there.

27:55

[00 27:56.698 – 00:27:59.618] I don't wanna go there." He turns left.

27:58

[00 27:59.618 – 00:28:03.058] "Oh, thank God, we're going down to the Catamaran Hotel.

28:02

[00 28:03.058 – 00:28:06.398] We're gonna party." 'Cause that was my thing, always a party.

28:06

[00 28:06.398 – 00:28:09.758] Not that I remembered any of it the next day, but that was it.

28:10

[00 28:09.758 – 00:28:09.768] Yeah.

28:11

[00 28:09.768 – 00:28:19.838] And then he goes one block to Thomas Street and he turned left again, and he stopped in front of a little church, and he said, "Mick, don't get mad at me now, but

28:22

[00 28:19.838 – 00:28:29.908] there's a young people's AA meeting in here, and I thought maybe you could benefit from it." Turns out Doc had gone through a Navy treatment center,

28:31

[00 28:29.908 – 00:28:32.268] a different one, the same time I had.

28:34

[00 28:32.268 – 00:28:33.748] That's why we hadn't seen each other

28:37

[00 28:34.586 – 00:28:37.066] And he was trying to sneak me into AA.

28:40

[00 28:37.066 – 00:28:39.186] Well, that's where I met Paul.

28:42

[00 28:39.186 – 00:28:39.876] Mm-hmm.

28:43

[00 28:39.876 – 00:28:41.766] And that was, it was...

28:45

[00 28:41.766 – 00:28:50.146] Paul uses the expression there, "Mostly failed hippies there." And you know, it was the middle of the Vietnam War, so I'm a Marine.

28:53

[00 28:50.146 – 00:28:52.586] I wasn't real popular with that crowd.

28:56

[00 28:52.586 – 00:28:58.466] But my first actual service commitment is, uh, I started, uh, cleaning ashtrays.

29:00

[00 28:58.466 – 00:29:07.536] And then the church outlawed smoking, so we had butt kits outside, and everybody had to go outside to smoke, and I cleaned those.

29:08

[00 29:07.536 – 00:29:16.456] And then I, I think after that, I li- I got elevated to some lofty position, like greeter or something.

29:15

[00 29:16.456 – 00:29:16.546] Mm-hmm.

29:16

[00 29:16.546 – 00:29:26.606] Uh, but early on, because I was in the Marine Corps and we were getting ready to do the evacuation of, of Saigon, uh, I was Saigon part, not Phnom Penh,

29:26

[00 29:26.606 – 00:29:30.886] um, I, I, I had a hard time keeping some of those commitments.

29:31

[00 29:30.886 – 00:29:31.666] Yeah.

29:31

[00 29:31.666 – 00:29:35.506] So over the years, I like keeping commitments to be local.

29:35

[00 29:35.506 – 00:29:41.386] And Paul, of course, was big into, you know, world service and everything and, and I admire the heck out of that.

29:43

[00 29:41.386 – 00:29:44.846] I've always liked being a greeter at my meeting.

29:46

[00 29:44.846 – 00:29:47.046] I like being the secretary.

29:48

[00 29:47.046 – 00:29:51.406] I carry the literature or the tokens, and I still do that.

29:52

[00 29:51.406 – 00:29:59.986] Um, my home group, which is Tuesday night, which in fact is starting right about now, there's three of us with 50 plus years.

30:00

[00 29:59.986 – 00:30:07.086] And there's another s- on an average Tuesday night, 6 to 10 people with 40 plus years.

30:05

[00 30:07.086 – 00:30:10.886] So all of the service commitments are being taken by us old farts.

30:09

[00 30:10.886 – 00:30:16.346] Well, thank you for your service.

30:11

[00 30:16.346 – 00:30:17.286] We appreciate it.

30:13

[00 30:17.286 – 00:30:17.966] Thank you.

30:14

[00 30:17.966 – 00:30:21.966] So when did you first start sponsoring yourself?

30:17

[00 30:21.966 – 00:30:30.206] When did you get your first sponsee, and, and what was that like when you had someone that was now calling you a sponsor?

30:25

[00 30:30.206 – 00:30:33.756] Uh, God, I'd have...

30:26

[00 30:33.756 – 00:30:34.726] Let me think for a minute.

30:29

[00 30:34.726 – 00:30:36.766] I was probably four or five years sober.

30:32

[00 30:36.766 – 00:30:40.166] I'd gotten out of the Marine Corps and things had settled down a little bit.

30:37

[00 30:40.166 – 00:30:47.606] Um, and I kind of followed Jim's format for how to do things, and I've never really...

30:43

[00 30:47.606 – 00:30:53.926] I, I do, I guess, sponsor people, but I think of myself more as a mentor than a sponsor.

30:49

[00 30:53.926 – 00:30:59.346] Uh, I never tell people what to do, and so I always followed Jim on that.

30:54

[00 30:59.346 – 00:31:06.506] And I've only had three sponsors myself in my time, and the only time I've ever changed a sponsor is when they die.

31:02

[00 31:06.506 – 00:31:12.846] Uh, so it's hard to find a fourth sponsor right now because they don't like the job requirement.

31:08

[00 31:12.846 – 00:31:21.886] So, um, but you know, with Jim, it was, "This is a suggestion, you know, like the rest of the program.

31:16

[00 31:21.886 – 00:31:23.346] You may wanna try it.

31:17

[00 31:23.346 – 00:31:24.886] If you don't, that's your prerogative.

31:20

[00 31:24.886 – 00:31:25.746] It's your program.

31:21

[00 31:25.746 – 00:31:35.786] You decide what you really wanna do for your program, but if you're not willing to do it, you might wanna look at why you're not willing to do it." And that's the, the basically

31:33

[00 31:35.786 – 00:31:37.946] the tactic I've taken with men and women.

31:36

[00 31:37.946 – 00:31:39.006] I've sponsored women.

31:37

[00 31:39.006 – 00:31:42.166] I know some people get all upset about that and break into a sweat.

31:42

[00 31:42.166 – 00:31:50.686] I've always thought that, you know, it's like if you go someplace where there's booze, if you're there for the right reason, it really won't matter.

31:50

[00 31:50.686 – 00:31:53.816] And if you're there for the wrong reason, it really won't matter.

31:55

[00 31:53.816 – 00:31:54.166] It really won't matter.

31:56

[00 31:54.166 – 00:31:58.646] And, uh, so I mean, I'm selective about folks.

32:00

[00 31:58.646 – 00:32:05.046] Uh, you know, I like the, the chapter of the Big Book where, you know, Bill wrote most of it working with others.

32:07

[00 32:05.046 – 00:32:10.826] And, you know, he talks about if somebody's not interested, don't force yourself on them.

32:13

[00 32:10.826 – 00:32:12.426] You know, I'm there.

32:14

[00 32:12.426 – 00:32:16.846] People ask me all the time, "Will you be my sponsor?" "Sure." And then I never hear from them again.

32:21

[00 32:16.846 – 00:32:17.526] Yeah.

32:22

[00 32:17.526 – 00:32:18.366] So okay.

32:23

[00 32:18.366 – 00:32:20.206] You know, that's fine.

32:24

[00 32:20.206 – 00:32:21.526] That's, that's a prerogative.

32:26

[00 32:21.526 – 00:32:22.066] I get it.

32:27

[00 32:22.066 – 00:32:26.066] After I lay out the way I do things, I probably scare the hell out of them.

32:33

[00 32:26.066 – 00:32:27.926] Yeah.

32:34

[00 32:27.926 – 00:32:37.966] Sometimes the best way to get rid of sponsees is to say, "Sure, I'll sponsor you." "Give me a call." I, I had a friend of mine, very dear friend of mine, served with him in the Marine Corps,

32:47

[00 32:37.966 – 00:32:41.106] and he just couldn't get over being a Marine.

32:50

[00 32:41.106 – 00:32:45.415] So he literally had a page of, of instructions for the people he sponsored.

32:55

[00 32:45.415 – 00:32:49.076] The very first thing, "You will call me at," and then he'd write in a time.

33:00

[00 32:49.076 – 00:32:52.926] But if you called one minute before, he wouldn't take the call.

33:04

[00 32:52.926 – 00:32:55.426] Call one minute later, he wouldn't take the call.

33:08

[00 32:55.426 – 00:32:57.566] He'd fire you as a sponsee.

33:10

[00 32:57.566 – 00:33:00.025] It's like, geez, Jim, take an Al-Anon meeting.

33:13

[00 33:00.025 – 00:33:01.286] Call somebody who cares.

33:14

[00 33:01.286 – 00:33:02.866] Good Lord.

33:15

[00 33:02.866 – 00:33:10.586] But you know, that worked for the guys, uh, that he sponsored, and it worked for him for years, so I was happy for him.

33:24

[00 33:10.586 – 00:33:18.126] And have you lived mostly in the area where you got sober, or have you moved at all in sobriety?

33:31

[00 33:18.126 – 00:33:21.146] I've moved c- a handful of times in sobriety.

33:34

[00 33:21.146 – 00:33:24.046] I got sober here in the San Diego market.

33:37

[00 33:24.046 – 00:33:27.326] Uh, but I, I actually, I moved back to Wisconsin.

33:41

[00 33:27.326 – 00:33:28.786] I tried to buy a business back there.

33:43

[00 33:28.786 – 00:33:34.446] It didn't work out, uh, which was unfortunate, 'cause I love Wisconsin, Southern Wisconsin.

33:48

[00 33:34.446 – 00:33:38.906] Uh, I've lived up in, uh, Orange County, a couple of different places up there.

33:54

[00 33:38.906 – 00:33:43.786] Um, the Marine Corps had an annoying habit of sending me places.

33:58

[00 33:43.786 – 00:33:45.086] I always found my way back.

34:00

[00 33:45.086 – 00:33:48.746] And, uh, you know, it's, it's interesting.

34:03

[00 33:48.746 – 00:33:54.906] I, I f- when I got out, I think I started to tell you, I went back to school and I got a bachelor's degree, business administration.

34:12

[00 33:54.906 – 00:34:01.346] And I used that plus the training I got in the Marine Corps to work in the addiction treatment field for 17 years.

34:19

[00 34:01.346 – 00:34:10.266] And then that field started to change in- into a direction I didn't care for, and my wife made it possible for me to go to law school.

34:28

[00 34:10.266 – 00:34:19.146] So I completely shifted gears at 39 years old, went to law school, and finished a three-year program in two years.

34:35

[00 34:19.146 – 00:34:20.046] Wow.

34:36

[00 34:20.046 – 00:34:21.186] That's impressive.

34:37

[00 34:21.186 – 00:34:22.166] That's impressive.

34:38

[00 34:22.166 – 00:34:32.166] So, uh, when you relocated, when you moved, when you went back to Wisconsin, um, do, did you, were you challenged at

34:45

[00 34:32.166 – 00:34:34.086] all by the differences in the meetings?

34:48

[00 34:34.086 – 00:34:44.266] And I'll tell you, I ask that because I was talking with someone about it, about that very thing just before we got on tonight, and I shared with them that I got sober

34:59

[00 34:44.266 – 00:34:52.366] in Hawaii and, and went to meetings at Pearl, but, and in, uh, Pear- and in Aiea, but I also went to meetings down in Waikiki.

35:08

[00 34:52.366 – 00:35:03.046] But when I relocated, I moved to the East Coast, and apparently I went to meetings for a while introducing myself and then saying, "My

35:16

[00 35:03.046 – 00:35:13.046] name is Penny P., I'm an alcoholic, and you're not doing it right." So you can tell that I really, people just really loved being

35:25

[00 35:13.046 – 00:35:14.146] in a meeting with me.

35:27

[00 35:14.146 – 00:35:22.286] But did you have, were you challenged by the fact that the meetings were just a little bit different in Wisconsin than you found them in California?

35:36

[00 35:22.286 – 00:35:23.866] Not really.

35:37

[00 35:23.866 – 00:35:25.626] I rather enjoyed that.

35:38

[00 35:25.626 – 00:35:35.846] Um, you know, here in Southern California, we've gotten to the point where we almost chant like a bunch of Buddhist monks with all the readings and every other th-

35:48

[00 35:35.846 – 00:35:36.746] It's like, good Lord.

35:50

[00 35:36.746 – 00:35:39.666] Take a minute, you know, how it works.

35:53

[00 35:39.666 – 00:35:41.366] Read the book and find out.

35:55

[00 35:41.366 – 00:35:42.186] Now let's move-

35:57

[00 35:42.381 – 00:35:43.941] Come to me and let people share.

35:59

[00 35:43.941 – 00:35:49.520] Uh, but, um, so far I haven't prevailed on my home group on that idea.

36:04

[00 35:49.520 – 00:35:59.540] But, but I, I, I've been to meetings where like in the Los Angeles area, I go up a couple times a year and I, I do take a, a

36:14

[00 35:59.541 – 00:36:01.441] token at a meeting in Santa Monica.

36:17

[00 36:01.441 – 00:36:08.161] I used to take it in Beverly Hills before COVID, and, uh, from a very dear friend of mine.

36:23

[00 36:08.161 – 00:36:13.901] And up there they'll have five, 10 people giving you the cake or token all at once, but they never say anything.

36:31

[00 36:13.901 – 00:36:15.401] They just give it to you and run like heck.

36:34

[00 36:15.401 – 00:36:16.001] Right.

36:35

[00 36:16.001 – 00:36:22.381] Where- whereas down here, somebody's giving it to you and they'll chat until somebody rings a bell or throws something at them.

36:42

[00 36:22.381 – 00:36:25.901] And, uh, you know, and then the...

36:45

[00 36:25.901 – 00:36:27.201] It's, it's interesting.

36:46

[00 36:27.201 – 00:36:28.281] It's just, I like that.

36:48

[00 36:28.281 – 00:36:33.601] I, I was, uh, talking to a friend of mine, big burly Marine guy, God, he was huge.

36:54

[00 36:33.601 – 00:36:40.361] And, uh, he was talking about going to a meeting in Maine, some small town in Maine where he was from.

37:01

[00 36:40.361 – 00:36:43.521] But he'd been going to meetings here in Ca- Southern California.

37:05

[00 36:43.521 – 00:36:48.301] So at the end where everybody holds hands and prays, he said he didn't even think about it.

37:11

[00 36:48.301 – 00:36:53.491] He stood up and reached out and grabbed the hands of the two guys next to him and started praying .

37:18

[00 36:53.491 – 00:36:54.801] And they don't do that there.

37:20

[00 36:54.801 – 00:36:58.221] So I, I mean, but it's fun.

37:23

[00 36:58.221 – 00:37:01.641] I, I went to, I was in Ireland for the 20...

37:27

[00 37:01.641 – 00:37:10.521] This is years and years ago back in the, it must have been in the late '70s, uh, early '80s, the 25th annual All Ireland AA Convention.

37:36

[00 37:10.521 – 00:37:16.021] It's in April every year, and it's a hoot, but it's very different AA type meeting.

37:42

[00 37:16.021 – 00:37:16.701] Yeah.

37:42

[00 37:16.701 – 00:37:20.541] I, I went to a meeting in a little town called Co, which is south of Dublin.

37:48

[00 37:20.541 – 00:37:24.921] And, uh, you walk in, and this is back when everybody still smoked.

37:53

[00 37:24.921 – 00:37:27.861] You could barely see anybody in the room, the smoke was so thick.

37:57

[00 37:27.861 – 00:37:33.301] And uh, "Ah, Sean, you're looking trouble today, lad." Started us off.

38:01

[00 37:33.301 – 00:37:34.521] And that was that.

38:03

[00 37:34.521 – 00:37:35.931] That was the start of the meeting.

38:06

[00 37:35.931 – 00:37:40.841] And then after everybody shared, the, the secretary would say, "Ah, thanks for being here tonight.

38:11

[00 37:40.841 – 00:37:42.021] Come back next week.

38:13

[00 37:42.021 – 00:37:44.681] Don't drink between the meetings." And that was it.

38:16

[00 37:44.681 – 00:37:46.121] None of the rest of it.

38:18

[00 37:46.121 – 00:37:50.381] You know, they'd meet after meetings and say, "Here, you should read the book," or whatever.

38:24

[00 37:50.381 – 00:37:52.501] So I like that.

38:25

[00 37:52.501 – 00:37:54.641] That was a kind of interesting way to approach it.

38:29

[00 37:54.641 – 00:38:00.071] It's, it's fun to travel and, and see the different approaches- Mm-hmm ...

38:33

[00 38:00.071 – 00:38:01.681] and, and to...

38:35

[00 38:01.681 – 00:38:11.701] And but I think it's also interesting, I was, um, I was in the Detroit area, and I was talking to somebody who'd just come back from

38:44

[00 38:11.701 – 00:38:13.610] Hawaii, and they just hated- Yeah ...

38:46

[00 38:13.610 – 00:38:15.451] the meetings in Hawaii- ...

38:47

[00 38:15.451 – 00:38:19.261] because they, they don't because they were not doing it right.

38:51

[00 38:19.261 – 00:38:23.761] So now when we talked, I think you said something about Intergroup.

38:56

[00 38:23.761 – 00:38:27.140] Did you say something about being active in the Intergroup?

38:59

[00 38:27.140 – 00:38:28.161] No, no.

39:00

[00 38:28.161 – 00:38:38.841] I, like I said, I do all my service work locally, and I used to take a meeting into the brig at Camp Pendleton for the Marines that were in, in the,

39:11

[00 38:38.841 – 00:38:42.381] in the brig because of almost all alcohol related offenses.

39:14

[00 38:42.381 – 00:38:45.321] But that's the kind of service work I enjoy the most.

39:18

[00 38:45.321 – 00:38:47.921] Talk a little bit about that, if you would.

39:21

[00 38:47.921 – 00:38:54.321] How, uh, what, how you got into that and, and um, what, what you were able to do.

39:28

[00 38:54.321 – 00:39:01.021] After I got out of the Marine Corps, um, I, I have great affection for the Marine Corps.

39:34

[00 39:01.021 – 00:39:06.401] 'Cause even though at the time, I, when I first went into treatment, I considered my life over.

39:40

[00 39:06.401 – 00:39:10.841] You know, my career is over, everything's done, ruined completely.

39:43

[00 39:10.841 – 00:39:12.761] You know, I could catastrophize.

39:45

[00 39:12.761 – 00:39:17.021] I could have won the lottery and found a way to catastrophize it, you know, at 20 years old.

39:52

[00 39:17.021 – 00:39:25.741] And so f- couple of years later, I was living in Oceanside where Camp Pendleton is, the Ma- big Marine Corps base here in California, or one of the big ones.

40:02

[00 39:25.741 – 00:39:35.761] And I was talking with a fella after a meeting, and he was a retired Marine, and he said, "Do you want a service commitment?" I said, "What would

40:12

[00 39:35.761 – 00:39:46.021] it be?" He said, "Once a," it was once or twice a month, I don't even remember now, "You take a couple of guys into the brig at Camp Pendleton and do an AA meeting

40:23

[00 39:46.021 – 00:39:52.641] for them." You know, you have a couple of two or three people and they, they speak for 10, 15 minutes a piece.

40:30

[00 39:52.641 – 00:39:57.461] And then, uh, you know, open it up if anybody wants to share.

40:35

[00 39:57.461 – 00:39:59.360] You know, whole thing was about an hour.

40:38

[00 39:59.360 – 00:40:03.021] Read the book a little bit, the, you know, chapter five and whatnot.

40:42

[00 40:03.021 – 00:40:08.261] And so I thought, "Yeah, I'd kind of like to do that." I was given a great gift.

40:49

[00 40:08.261 – 00:40:17.321] I, I, one of my personal prejudices we've gotten into talking about in AA, especially here in San Diego, what I call AA chic-speak.

40:57

[00 40:17.321 – 00:40:20.701] You know, chic-speak is a great thing.

40:59

[00 40:20.701 – 00:40:25.361] You know, uh, what you think of me is none of my business.

41:04

[00 40:25.361 – 00:40:26.921] Something very dramatic.

41:05

[00 40:26.921 – 00:40:30.281] And it's like, well, you gotta get some new friends, pal.

41:09

[00 40:30.281 – 00:40:38.241] 'Cause if your friends' opinions don't matter to you, you know, you're gonna be grading your own report card, and chances are you're gonna get a lot of A's.

41:19

[00 40:38.241 – 00:40:43.121] And, uh, or the other one is, I, I earned my seat in AA.

41:24

[00 40:43.121 – 00:40:45.361] It's like, oh, well, there's that tough guy for you.

41:27

[00 40:45.361 – 00:40:46.921] I didn't earn my seat.

41:29

[00 40:46.921 – 00:40:50.661] I, I certainly drank enough to qualify, but I didn't earn it.

41:33

[00 40:50.661 – 00:40:52.381] It was a gift.

41:35

[00 40:52.381 – 00:40:58.221] And at, at that point, I started taking the meeting into the brig.

41:39

[00 40:58.221 – 00:41:01.961] And, you know, finding people that were comfortable going was difficult.

41:43

[00 41:01.961 – 00:41:02.851] Mm-hmm.

41:44

[00 41:02.851 – 00:41:08.861] 'Cause, you know, you go in, they s- you slam those big, you know, gates behind you, it's kind of frightening.

41:51

[00 41:08.861 – 00:41:10.881] And it started to reshape my thinking.

41:54

[00 41:10.881 – 00:41:15.361] And my poor friend James Z there is gonna hear this again.

41:58

[00 41:15.361 – 00:41:21.721] Um, I'm the only big book most people will ever read outside of an AA meeting.

42:03

[00 41:21.721 – 00:41:24.731] How I act out there- Mm-hmm ...

42:06

[00 41:24.731 – 00:41:28.741] is far more important than what I say in an AA meeting.

42:10

[00 41:28.741 – 00:41:39.101] And if I don't carry the message and carry myself in a way that is, you know, makes somebody want to explore

42:17

[00 41:39.101 – 00:41:43.221] AA, then I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing in recovery.

42:22

[00 41:43.221 – 00:41:46.361] And I really truly believe that.

42:24

[00 41:46.361 – 00:41:49.341] I have, uh, I absolutely no doubt.

42:27

[00 41:49.341 – 00:41:53.381] So I tried my best after, after that experience.

42:30

[00 41:53.381 – 00:42:02.141] I s- it occurred to me, not everybody there, probably most of the guys there didn't pick up on what was being put out for them, but it planted the seed.

42:40

[00 42:02.141 – 00:42:04.811] That's what chapter eight talks about.

42:42

[00 42:04.811 – 00:42:05.821] We're planting the seed.

42:44

[00 42:05.821 – 00:42:07.491] If they're not ready, they're not ready.

42:47

[00 42:07.491 – 00:42:13.901] Can't change that, but you can plant the seed, and hopefully they'll come back later.

42:52

[00 42:13.901 – 00:42:23.921] But the other part of it is, I've always tried to be there so that if a family member comes to me and says, "Mick, I've got a husband or a wife or a friend

43:04

[00 42:23.921 – 00:42:29.681] or whatever, would you be willing to talk to them?" That's the greatest service of AA.

43:09

[00 42:29.681 – 00:42:31.621] That's the ultimate in 12 step.

43:11

[00 42:31.621 – 00:42:40.371] And, and what's really funny is, you know, I tie a lot back to the Marine Corps, 'cause I'm eternally grateful for what they did give me in terms of- Yeah ...

43:21

[00 42:40.371 – 00:42:41.281] lessons in life.

43:23

[00 42:41.281 – 00:42:50.681] Before I got sober, I don't know if there's any Marines on the, on the Zoom call tonight, but there's a, a little hill we have at Ca-

43:32

[00 42:50.869 – 00:42:52.429] pedal and it's called Mount MF.

43:34

[00 42:52.429 – 00:42:55.769] Now, that does not stand for Mighty Fun.

43:37

[00 42:55.769 – 00:42:58.249] Um, hard to believe.

43:39

[00 42:58.249 – 00:43:02.309] And you go full combat gear, and, you know, you...

43:42

[00 43:02.309 – 00:43:05.529] About a 10-mile hike to get there.

43:45

[00 43:05.529 – 00:43:07.729] You go up, it's about five miles up the hill.

43:49

[00 43:07.729 – 00:43:16.249] And we're at the top of this hill and, you know, pull off my pack, and, uh, I was tired, and laying my rifle down, my helmet off.

43:58

[00 43:16.249 – 00:43:19.269] You know, you're talking about 40 or 50 pounds of gear.

44:01

[00 43:19.269 – 00:43:25.929] And our platoon sergeant said, "Look back down the hill." And there's all these guys that were struggling.

44:07

[00 43:25.929 – 00:43:31.429] I was, like, the fifth or sixth guy up the hill, and I was very proud of that, 'cause at the time I was only 17 or 18.

44:16

[00 43:31.429 – 00:43:36.788] And I was very proud of that, that I was able to do that, so much better than...

44:22

[00 43:36.788 – 00:43:39.629] Very egotistical, obviously.

44:23

[00 43:39.629 – 00:43:42.989] And he said, uh, "We never leave a Marine behind.

44:27

[00 43:42.989 – 00:43:47.149] Saddle back up, go back down, and talk to them.

44:31

[00 43:47.149 – 00:43:47.969] Guide them.

44:32

[00 43:47.969 – 00:43:52.369] Tell them how you got up the hill." I've got a pack on.

44:36

[00 43:52.369 – 00:43:56.599] I can't carry their pack, but I can sure as heck guide them.

44:41

[00 43:56.599 – 00:43:58.768] And that's what our 12th step is.

44:43

[00 43:58.768 – 00:44:04.789] We can't carry the other person's pack, but we sure as heck can guide them.

44:48

[00 44:04.789 – 00:44:14.149] So if somebody relapses, and I hate it when somebody relapses, you know, I remind people there is no 14th step in AA that says you have to relapse.

44:58

[00 44:14.149 – 00:44:19.709] Uh, by the way, for those of you who don't know what the 13th step is, ask some of the women after the meeting.

45:06

[00 44:19.709 – 00:44:25.589] Um, but, you know, if you relapse, keep coming back.

45:10

[00 44:25.589 – 00:44:35.268] You're gonna do a lot better trying in, in an AA meeting than you are in Little Audrey's Alibi, you know, swilling down some beer, so.

45:19

[00 44:35.268 – 00:44:37.749] Okay.

45:19

[00 44:37.749 – 00:44:39.869] Do you have...

45:20

[00 44:39.869 – 00:44:42.309] I mean, you've been sober for 52 years.

45:23

[00 44:42.309 – 00:44:52.469] As you look back over the time that you've been sober, um, first of all, did you ever in your l- life imagine

45:31

[00 44:52.469 – 00:44:54.969] that you could stay sober for 52 years?

45:33

[00 44:54.969 – 00:45:05.049] I mean, you talked about the lady with 20 years of sobriety, and, "I love everybody." But I can tell you, I have been that person

45:42

[00 45:05.049 – 00:45:15.709] and, and as I'm standing at the podium saying that, I'm thinking, "Oh, my God, there's a newcomer in the room just groaning and rolling their eyes at me."

45:52

[00 45:15.709 – 00:45:20.188] You know, it, it's funny you would say that because, um, it never occurred to me.

45:57

[00 45:20.188 – 00:45:21.649] And after...

45:58

[00 45:21.649 – 00:45:28.689] 'Cause every year I'd celebrate a birthday, for probably the first 10 years, I'd say, "Is this the year that I go south?" Or, you know.

46:06

[00 45:28.689 – 00:45:38.749] Uh, but I, I, I always surrounded myself with friends who I did listen to, people who I respected, and they would share their observations or what they

46:16

[00 45:38.749 – 00:45:39.189] see in me.

46:17

[00 45:39.189 – 00:45:42.469] Now, they may not be right, but they cared enough to tell me.

46:22

[00 45:42.469 – 00:45:49.609] 'Cause I'm one of those guys that if I, you know, happened to be grading my own report card, I did get a lot of A's.

46:30

[00 45:49.609 – 00:45:52.079] Uh, they weren't always richly deserved.

46:33

[00 45:52.079 – 00:46:01.729] And so one day it occurred to me, I hadn't even thought about that in years, but I've pretty much always stayed very close to meetings.

46:41

[00 46:01.729 – 00:46:02.609] I love meetings.

46:43

[00 46:02.609 – 00:46:04.269] Part of it's the social.

46:45

[00 46:04.269 – 00:46:07.009] I like to go early, I like to stay late.

46:48

[00 46:07.009 – 00:46:17.109] Uh, part of it is if I'm listening, whether it's a newcomer or somebody like my friend, uh, Donna Marie with 55 years that comes to my

46:57

[00 46:17.109 – 00:46:23.969] Tuesday night meeting, I hear things that help me, that I benefit from, or it gives me a different perspective.

47:04

[00 46:23.969 – 00:46:26.909] I like that.

47:05

[00 46:26.909 – 00:46:37.269] So you have touched a lot in your sharing tonight about, um, about friendship, and can you elaborate

47:11

[00 46:37.269 – 00:46:47.449] on that a little bit more for someone in the room that, that might be new or that doesn't understand the connections that we make and how important those

47:21

[00 46:47.449 – 00:46:47.669] are?

47:22

[00 46:47.669 – 00:46:49.929] Would you, can you touch on that a little bit?

47:25

[00 46:49.929 – 00:46:51.149] There is a...

47:26

[00 46:51.149 – 00:46:51.889] Yeah, I can.

47:28

[00 46:51.889 – 00:46:52.349] Thank you.

47:29

[00 46:52.349 – 00:46:59.748] Uh, there's a core group of people that I met that came in after me but were young.

47:35

[00 46:59.748 – 00:47:02.389] And you know the old saying, we're not a glum lot.

47:39

[00 47:02.389 – 00:47:11.089] And what we would do is we'd go to this meeting, and after the meeting we'd go down to Belmont Park, big rollerco- wooden roller coaster.

47:47

[00 47:11.089 – 00:47:12.628] It's scary as hell.

47:49

[00 47:12.628 – 00:47:22.689] And we'd ride around, and we just started building this community of people that, you know, were sober, that wanted to be sober, and that wanted to live

47:58

[00 47:22.689 – 00:47:22.969] life.

47:59

[00 47:22.969 – 00:47:28.049] Uh, you know, for years I've held the belief I did not get sober to die in an AA meeting.

48:06

[00 47:28.049 – 00:47:33.529] I'm not one of these guys that goes to two or three meetings a day, you know, seven days a week.

48:13

[00 47:33.529 – 00:47:35.569] Uh, I go to one or two a week.

48:16

[00 47:35.569 – 00:47:38.469] Uh, but I surround myself with friends.

48:19

[00 47:38.469 – 00:47:48.609] I have, um, some of the people, for example, at my Tuesday night home group are people that I've known and, and associated with as a friend for well over 40

48:29

[00 47:48.609 – 00:47:49.309] plus years.

48:30

[00 47:49.309 – 00:47:53.929] I sponsor one of the guys now, he's 45 years sober.

48:33

[00 47:53.929 – 00:47:57.829] Uh, a couple of the women that are there I've known for 40 plus years.

48:38

[00 47:57.829 – 00:48:00.239] Um, Paul C.

48:40

[00 48:00.239 – 00:48:02.169] I've known for 52 years.

48:41

[00 48:02.169 – 00:48:12.169] You know, um, I don't always get to spend as much time with my friends as I'd like, but they're always a phone call away, and I know when I'm getting squirrely all the...

48:53

[00 48:12.169 – 00:48:15.949] Like I said, they're a very select group of people, and they're very...

48:57

[00 48:15.949 – 00:48:24.209] I mean, it's, in my case, I would say it's somewhat, uh, how to say it, uh, segmented.

49:03

[00 48:24.209 – 00:48:34.249] I have a group of friends that I served with in the Marine Corps that we can share certain experiences or certain whatever, uh, memories, however

49:12

[00 48:34.249 – 00:48:42.249] you wanna put it, that I wouldn't necessarily share with some of my other friends who have no experience with the military.

49:19

[00 48:42.249 – 00:48:45.619] Um, so, you know, it's just...

49:22

[00 48:45.619 – 00:48:49.969] But it's, it's a matter of finding people that you can do things with.

49:27

[00 48:49.969 – 00:48:51.529] We've all moved on.

49:28

[00 48:51.529 – 00:48:53.029] All of us have gotten married.

49:30

[00 48:53.029 – 00:48:55.489] You know, some of us have started families.

49:33

[00 48:55.489 – 00:48:59.689] I have three beautiful kids now, and now a couple of grandkids.

49:38

[00 48:59.689 – 00:49:03.189] And, uh, but we still go to the meeting.

49:41

[00 49:03.189 – 00:49:04.189] It's our home group.

49:42

[00 49:04.189 – 00:49:13.769] You know, we've all been going to this meeting for, you know, my case, well, probably I wanna say 47 or 8 years.

49:49

[00 49:13.769 – 00:49:17.669] And the others I had introduced to the meeting, and it just became a real good thing.

49:55

[00 49:17.669 – 00:49:20.049] We'd go to dinner before the meeting.

49:58

[00 49:20.049 – 00:49:23.009] You know, not too elaborate, 'cause we're all broke.

50:01

[00 49:23.009 – 00:49:27.569] So we'd go to places like Denny's, uh, or Marie Callender's.

50:05

[00 49:27.569 – 00:49:34.249] Those are the kinds of things that made sobriety much easier on the rough spots.

50:10

[00 49:34.249 – 00:49:38.589] 'Cause all the book ever tells us is we're gonna solve the drink problem.

50:15

[00 49:38.589 – 00:49:45.049] It doesn't say life is gonna become, you know, sunshine, rainbows, and, you know, honey all the time.

50:21

[00 49:45.049 – 00:49:46.109] There's- Yeah ...

50:22

[00 49:46.109 – 00:49:47.019] life's in session.

50:23

[00 49:47.019 – 00:49:49.539] We've, we've all lost people that we love.

50:26

[00 49:49.539 – 00:49:54.869] Uh, sometimes through addiction, sometimes through just whatever medical issues.

50:30

[00 49:54.869 – 00:49:58.909] Um, you know, we're just in s-

50:33

[00 49:59.247 – 00:50:09.678] life's a session, but it gives us, for me anyway, it's always given me a building block to work around and, and make my, my recovery that much more desirable.

50:43

[00 50:09.678 – 00:50:12.138] You know, I, I'm lucky.

50:45

[00 50:12.138 – 00:50:17.078] I married a woman that I think is the most extraordinary human being I've ever met in my life.

50:51

[00 50:17.078 – 00:50:21.598] And, uh, you know, I stay out of her program, she stays out of mine.

50:56

[00 50:21.598 – 00:50:24.398] Um, she's got 44 years.

50:58

[00 50:24.398 – 00:50:26.838] I, I tell her she's doing well for a newcomer.

51:01

[00 50:26.838 – 00:50:36.918] And- But I mean, truthfully, she is the most important person in my life, and I can't imagine

51:08

[00 50:36.918 – 00:50:37.517] life without her.

51:09

[00 50:37.517 – 00:50:47.538] But, you know, a large part of the steps, in my opinion, has always been identifying what those values are that I personally hold and live

51:18

[00 50:47.538 – 00:50:52.478] by, and then understanding that if I don't live by them, I feel bad.

51:22

[00 50:52.478 – 00:50:56.978] The easiest thing in the world is live by them and then I won't feel bad.

51:28

[00 50:56.978 – 00:51:06.258] And she and I, you know, I, a lot of my friends in AA, over the years I've watched them, the ink isn't dry on their divorce papers before they get married again.

51:39

[00 51:06.258 – 00:51:12.878] I, you know, I think it takes a little time to sort out the, the mess.

51:44

[00 51:12.878 – 00:51:18.648] And so I believe that, you know, surrounding myself with friends made my life infinitely better.

51:50

[00 51:18.648 – 00:51:25.318] I did get married early on, and we didn't really have the same values in some areas that were important.

51:57

[00 51:25.318 – 00:51:30.058] And when I got divorced, I had friends that I could rely on.

52:01

[00 51:30.058 – 00:51:35.698] And, uh, so, and I stayed s- single, I want to say six or seven years.

52:07

[00 51:35.698 – 00:51:37.938] I mean, I dated, don't get me wrong.

52:10

[00 51:37.938 – 00:51:44.858] Big fan of dating back then, but, um, you know, it's just about, for me, getting back out and living life.

52:17

[00 51:44.858 – 00:51:52.658] So I'm ju- I'm gonna ask you just a couple more questions, and then we're gonna open it up for people to ask you questions.

52:25

[00 51:52.658 – 00:51:59.238] So if there's anybody listening in that has a question for Mick, please, uh, get ready to, uh, to ask it.

52:32

[00 51:59.238 – 00:52:08.458] And we are going to ask that you, um, that you not use the time to share your experience, strength and hope, but that you have a question for Mick.

52:42

[00 52:08.458 – 00:52:18.618] Um, if you, uh, had the, had the opportunity to say something to, to the you that walked in the door of Alcoholics

52:50

[00 52:18.618 – 00:52:29.278] Anonymous, if you had something just to share with, with that 20-year-old Marine that thought, "I'm not an alcoholic.

52:57

[00 52:29.278 – 00:52:36.778] I don't need to go to this alcohol rehab program," what would you say to that, uh, 20-year-old Mick M?

53:03

[00 52:36.778 – 00:52:39.098] Don't give up on yourself.

53:05

[00 52:39.098 – 00:52:40.278] You're worth it.

53:07

[00 52:40.278 – 00:52:50.318] When I got to the treatment center, I truthfully felt like I was living inside a glass jar, and

53:13

[00 52:50.318 – 00:52:54.538] I could see everybody and everything around me, but I couldn't be a part of it.

53:19

[00 52:54.538 – 00:52:56.568] Yeah.

53:19

[00 52:56.568 – 00:52:58.378] Don't give up on yourself.

53:21

[00 52:58.378 – 00:52:59.158] You're worth it.

53:23

[00 52:59.158 – 00:53:00.038] Yeah.

53:23

[00 53:00.038 – 00:53:06.458] And my perspective today is, oh my God, we could have missed all this.

53:28

[00 53:06.458 – 00:53:07.498] Absolutely.

53:29

[00 53:07.498 – 00:53:09.598] Oh my God, yeah.

53:30

[00 53:09.598 – 00:53:19.918] So I'm gonna take us off spotlight if I can, and, um, and then I'm gonna open it up and ask people to, uh, raise

53:39

[00 53:19.918 – 00:53:22.418] their hands if they've got a question for Mick.

53:42

[00 53:22.418 – 00:53:27.338] We are going to ask you, if you've got a question, that you turn on your video.

53:48

[00 53:27.338 – 00:53:35.038] Um, and if nobody's got questions, we're just gonna chat a little bit more and, and close the meeting.

53:54

[00 53:35.038 – 00:53:42.698] But, um, so I know that there are some friends of Mick's i- on the room today, in the meeting room tonight.

54:02

[00 53:42.698 – 00:53:45.018] You must know- At least one ...

54:04

[00 53:45.018 – 00:53:50.648] you must know him well enough that you have a question you want to ask, even if it embarrasses him.

54:11

[00 53:50.648 – 00:53:54.468] Or especially, especially if it embarrasses him.

54:13

[00 53:54.468 – 00:53:55.088] Especially.

54:14

[00 53:55.088 – 00:53:59.608] So anybody want to raise their hand and, uh, and ask a question?

54:19

[00 53:59.608 – 00:54:03.128] There's no questions?

54:20

[00 54:03.128 – 00:54:04.258] Really?

54:20

[00 54:04.258 – 00:54:06.358] Come on, I didn't do that good of an interview.

54:24

[00 54:06.358 – 00:54:11.498] I, it looks like my friend bailed out on us, so...

54:28

[00 54:11.498 – 00:54:15.738] Well, Jay-Z, j- there's a Jay-Z still here.

54:31

[00 54:15.738 – 00:54:16.538] Jay-Z- Oh, she is?

54:32

[00 54:16.538 – 00:54:17.158] Okay.

54:33

[00 54:17.158 – 00:54:21.898] C- can I, uh, can I ask you to unmute and come in and say something to Mick?

54:39

[00 54:21.898 – 00:54:23.558] Yes.

54:40

[00 54:23.558 – 00:54:23.938] Hi.

54:41

[00 54:23.938 – 00:54:25.538] Hi, everybody.

54:42

[00 54:25.538 – 00:54:27.178] I am still here.

54:43

[00 54:27.178 – 00:54:31.758] Um, well, it's really great to, uh, to hear all your questions.

54:47

[00 54:31.758 – 00:54:33.558] Yes, you asked amazing questions.

54:49

[00 54:33.558 – 00:54:35.178] What...

54:50

[00 54:35.178 – 00:54:44.518] I guess what I would ask to Mick is, and the way that I know him is at that meeting that he referenced, where he has known people for so, so many years.

55:01

[00 54:44.518 – 00:54:55.098] But, um, how is it that you would advise, you know, when I hear your stories, Mick, about how you connected to people,

55:09

[00 54:55.098 – 00:55:05.318] um, and you guys were young and you went out and you didn't have families at the time, but how do you advise people like me, who came in five years ago, and

55:20

[00 55:05.318 – 00:55:07.038] I'm not that, you know, that young.

55:22

[00 55:07.038 – 00:55:11.518] I don't have that kind of time to go out after the meetings for dinner all the time.

55:28

[00 55:11.518 – 00:55:12.978] I have a husband, some have children.

55:31

[00 55:12.978 – 00:55:21.238] So what have you seen that helps build connections and fellowship the way that you were able to capture so many years ago?

55:39

[00 55:21.238 – 00:55:23.658] That's a great question, Jay-Z.

55:41

[00 55:23.658 – 00:55:23.728] Great.

55:41

[00 55:23.728 – 00:55:24.878] Thank you for asking that.

55:43

[00 55:24.878 – 00:55:35.198] You know, what I've seen happen over the years is when somebody comes in and they have those kinds of other responsibilities that I was, uh, I didn't have at the time,

55:54

[00 55:35.198 – 00:55:45.218] uh, what I've seen people do and I think makes the most sense, is they start with just a sponsor and they carve out a certain amount of time every week,

56:04

[00 55:45.218 – 00:55:45.458] you know?

56:05

[00 55:45.458 – 00:55:51.578] It's like if you could find the time to drink, you can find the time to meet with a sponsor once a week or something, you know?

56:14

[00 55:51.578 – 00:56:01.638] And then most of the people that I know that are sponsors, that do sponsoring of any kind, they love to have a, you know, some kind

56:23

[00 56:01.638 – 00:56:05.818] of gathering every once in a while, maybe a barbecue on a Sunday.

56:28

[00 56:05.818 – 00:56:07.378] Bring in families, too.

56:30

[00 56:07.378 – 00:56:10.278] I mean, there's no reason not to have families.

56:33

[00 56:10.278 – 00:56:16.118] Um, so that's what I've seen, is they have to slowly start building.

56:37

[00 56:16.118 – 00:56:17.378] There's a ripple effect.

56:39

[00 56:17.378 – 00:56:21.478] Kinda like throwing a, a little pebble into the, into the water, there's a ripple effect.

56:45

[00 56:21.478 – 00:56:24.218] You start small and then you kinda grow out from there.

56:48

[00 56:24.218 – 00:56:27.098] Thanks.

56:49

[00 56:27.098 – 00:56:29.318] Travis, you've got your hand up.

56:51

[00 56:29.318 – 00:56:31.758] Would you like to come in and ask Mick a question?

56:55

[00 56:31.758 – 00:56:33.078] Yes, ma'am.

56:56

[00 56:33.078 – 00:56:33.518] Thank you.

56:57

[00 56:33.518 – 00:56:34.558] I'm Travis.

56:58

[00 56:34.558 – 00:56:35.318] I'm an alcoholic.

56:59

[00 56:35.318 – 00:56:43.838] And, um, so the way, the way...

57:02

[00 56:43.838 – 00:56:49.858] I didn't hear any description of six and seven or anything beyond that.

57:07

[00 56:49.858 – 00:56:56.478] It was, um, bypassed, stating that you, you couldn't describe the spiritual experience based in that.

57:12

[00 56:56.478 – 00:57:06.618] But it was given to me as a very direct, and this, "These are the defects that humans experience, and this is the way we pray towards

57:21

[00 57:06.618 – 00:57:06.897] those."

57:22

[00 57:08.586 – 00:57:15.106] I've had observable results in that, and I can explain that very articulately.

57:26

[00 57:15.106 – 00:57:17.486] Why can't you?

57:28

[00 57:17.486 – 00:57:19.826] Oh, that's a damn good question.

57:30

[00 57:19.826 – 00:57:20.966] I don't know why I can't.

57:32

[00 57:20.966 – 00:57:24.366] I just, I, I know the feelings, the experiences that I've had.

57:36

[00 57:24.366 – 00:57:32.226] Um, I believe, you know, I'm, I'm not one of those fellas that's gonna get down on his knees and start praying every day and hope for the best.

57:46

[00 57:32.226 – 00:57:34.706] That's just not my style or way of doing things.

57:50

[00 57:34.706 – 00:57:41.306] I think my spirituality is better demonstrated by helping others, uh, carrying the message.

57:54

[00 57:41.306 – 00:57:46.926] Um, you know, uh, six and seven fall into that, asking for help.

57:59

[00 57:46.926 – 00:57:50.526] I don't do that well, but I've had to do it, obviously.

58:03

[00 57:50.526 – 00:57:56.046] The other part of it, though, it's, and it's an interesting part, 'cause we didn't really talk about some of the later steps.

58:11

[00 57:56.046 – 00:58:05.206] When I did that first step, and it was very comprehensive, it led to having a very strong eighth step.

58:18

[00 58:05.206 – 00:58:07.566] I had a list of all the people that I'd harmed.

58:22

[00 58:07.566 – 00:58:11.386] The hard part for me was getting willing to make amends to them all.

58:26

[00 58:11.386 – 00:58:19.526] I fought that, uh, I fought one of them unbelievably hard, uh, an uncle of mine that I had lived with briefly.

58:34

[00 58:19.526 – 00:58:29.566] And, uh, my f- my sponsor, Jim, of course being Jim, uh, as I was getting ready to go back to Minneapolis for something, Jim said, "Hey, don't you have an

58:44

[00 58:29.566 – 00:58:33.226] uncle you need to make amends to?" And, and I did.

58:48

[00 58:33.226 – 00:58:39.466] I had to go back and I had to make amends to he and his wife and my cousins that were still in the house there.

58:57

[00 58:39.466 – 00:58:46.606] Uh, so that whole writing of everything just was a stepping stone to the next step, and that's what's worked for me.

59:04

[00 58:46.606 – 00:58:49.026] I made my amends off of that list.

59:07

[00 58:49.026 – 00:58:54.926] Uh, 10, of course, is just going ahead and, uh, doing a daily inventory.

59:12

[00 58:54.926 – 00:58:57.346] Some days I do a lot better job than others.

59:15

[00 58:57.346 – 00:59:06.326] But Jim also made it a point to tell me, as, as did, uh, my other sponsors, you know, in inventory you don't look at just the bad, you look at the good.

59:26

[00 59:06.326 – 00:59:10.006] The good in me is I try to be there for other people.

59:31

[00 59:10.006 – 00:59:13.406] Perhaps the bad in me is, eh, I don't know.

59:34

[00 59:13.406 – 00:59:18.686] Um, you know, I don't, uh, like I said, I'm not the least bit religious.

59:40

[00 59:18.686 – 00:59:20.726] Don't get on my knees and pray.

59:42

[00 59:20.726 – 00:59:27.146] I don't like it at meetings when they start getting off into these very, you know, religious sounding prayers.

59:49

[00 59:27.146 – 00:59:29.186] If it works for them, mazel tov.

59:51

[00 59:29.186 – 00:59:30.026] I'm happy for them.

59:53

[00 59:30.026 – 00:59:31.146] It's just not for me.

59:55

[00 59:31.146 – 00:59:39.446] I, I just wanna say that it was not Mick that avoided talking about those last steps.

60:01

[00 59:39.446 – 00:59:44.966] It was, it was a shiny object that, that distracted me to go onto something else.

60:06

[00 59:44.966 – 00:59:50.666] So, um, it, it wasn't that he was avoiding talking about those last steps.

60:11

[00 59:50.666 – 00:59:53.886] That was just that I diverted down a different path.

60:15

[00 59:53.886 – 00:59:58.786] So, um, I- I want you to know you're not the first pretty woman that's led me astray.

60:21

[00 59:58.786 – 01:00:02.446] And I appreciate that.

60:22

[01 00:02.446 – 01:00:03.306] I appreciate that.

60:24

[01 00:03.306 – 01:00:07.786] So but let's talk about, uh, 10, 11, and 12 a little bit.

60:27

[01 00:07.786 – 01:00:14.086] How do you put those into practice as you, um, as you continue going through life?

60:33

[01 00:14.086 – 01:00:14.546] Um.

60:33

[01 00:14.546 – 01:00:16.786] Okay.

60:34

[01 00:16.786 – 01:00:22.286] Well, 10 is, you know, simple review of my s- my day.

60:38

[01 00:22.286 – 01:00:23.666] How did I do?

60:40

[01 00:23.666 – 01:00:27.786] What, you know, what was the, uh, the good?

60:43

[01 00:27.786 – 01:00:28.806] What was the bad?

60:44

[01 00:28.806 – 01:00:37.026] Uh, from my, in my case, you know, the, um, the good tends to outweigh the bad, but I still have bad days.

60:52

[01 00:37.026 – 01:00:37.726] I'm a human.

60:53

[01 00:37.726 – 01:00:43.886] Uh, I get annoyed with humanity at times and say things that I rather wish I hadn't.

60:59

[01 00:43.886 – 01:00:46.606] Find myself having to make amends.

61:02

[01 00:46.606 – 01:00:55.286] Um, you know, I believe I've had the spiritual experiences, you know, that has carried me through and, and I like that.

61:09

[01 00:55.286 – 01:01:05.806] And then, you know, the 12th step is just, for me, the most simple of all, you know, be there for others, and I do that by being at meetings, talking to people,

61:20

[01 01:05.806 – 01:01:08.446] uh, trying to carry the message to the best of my ability.

61:24

[01 01:08.446 – 01:01:15.016] Uh, I'm not a big, um, I'm not one of those guys that goes out, I'm not a circuit speaker.

61:31

[01 01:15.016 – 01:01:21.006] I do speak when I'm asked, but I don't, you know, run around telling people how to do their steps or anything else.

61:39

[01 01:21.006 – 01:01:22.646] I just know it's worked well for me.

61:42

[01 01:22.646 – 01:01:24.846] Okay.

61:42

[01 01:24.846 – 01:01:29.525] Does anyone else have any questions for Mick?

61:45

[01 01:29.525 – 01:01:30.786] Raise your hand.

61:47

[01 01:30.786 – 01:01:33.666] Okay.

61:47

[01 01:33.666 – 01:01:44.326] Mick, I just wanna thank you for being willing to be of service, to being willing to take on this kind of a meeting and, and just answer

61:57

[01 01:44.326 – 01:01:48.306] questions on the spur of the moment that you don't know what's gonna come out.

62:02

[01 01:48.306 – 01:01:49.756] And, um, I appreciate it.

62:04

[01 01:49.756 – 01:01:54.546] I will be sending Paul a thank you, because this was really fun tonight and you made it so easy.

62:11

[01 01:54.546 – 01:01:55.946] And, um- Oh, I love Paul.

62:13

[01 01:55.946 – 01:01:56.986] He's a great guy.

62:14

[01 01:56.986 – 01:01:57.806] Yeah.

62:15

[01 01:57.806 – 01:02:07.866] And I, and I loved your stories and, and, um, so, uh, is there anything that I did not ask that you would like to share with the group?

62:25

[01 02:07.866 – 01:02:14.236] Anything that you, um, you enjoy sharing when you speak at a meeting or you share at a meeting?

62:31

[01 02:14.236 – 01:02:16.546] Anything that you wanna share with the group?

62:34

[01 02:16.546 – 01:02:26.546] You know, like I said, um, I'm the only big book most people will ever read outside of an AA meeting, and it would be

62:43

[01 02:26.546 – 01:02:36.466] my hope that others will adopt a similar kind of mindset, uh, so when they go out into public, they reflect AA well.

62:50

[01 02:36.466 – 01:02:38.726] Now, I'm not very anonymous.

62:52

[01 02:38.726 – 01:02:49.086] Um, I'm a lawyer, or retired lawyer now, and the state bar really was very interested in my recovery, and

62:59

[01 02:49.086 – 01:02:55.006] I became very involved in other groups like, uh, the other bar for attorneys and judges.

63:05

[01 02:55.006 – 01:03:02.426] Uh, I've actually 12-stepped a judge, which is not an easy thing to do, and, uh, but did it.

63:11

[01 03:02.426 – 01:03:10.246] And so there's a lot of, a lot of aspects to what I think of as what we can do.

63:18

[01 03:10.246 – 01:03:18.086] But mostly we ha- we have to get out there and let people know that we're living sober and we're making something of our lives.

63:26

[01 03:18.086 – 01:03:20.285] Hopefully we are.

63:28

[01 03:20.285 – 01:03:25.446] Uh, Chilly Charlie, you got your hand up.

63:30

[01 03:25.446 – 01:03:25.906] Okay.

63:31

[01 03:25.906 – 01:03:26.466] See?

63:32

[01 03:26.466 – 01:03:37.906] We just have to look like we're e- ending the meeting and people say, "Oh, oh, call on me." Uh, oh, shit, I got tossed.

63:40

[01 03:37.906 – 01:03:39.546] No, you're here.

63:41

[01 03:39.546 – 01:03:40.846] Oh, can you hear me?

63:43

[01 03:40.846 – 01:03:42.066] I can hear you.

63:45

[01 03:42.066 – 01:03:43.266] Oh, sorry about that.

63:47

[01 03:43.266 – 01:03:44.766] Um, I hit the wrong button.

63:49

[01 03:44.766 – 01:03:48.706] Uh, Mick, thank you for your, uh, for your talk.

63:52

[01 03:48.706 – 01:03:58.946] And, um, you mentioned being a lawyer and, uh, I know not where I live now, but previously there was a, a lawyers only meeting

64:01

[01 03:58.946 – 01:04:08.266] and I'm just kinda curious what your thoughts on that are and if it's necessary, and, um, and why would you do that anyway?

64:09

[01 04:08.266 – 01:04:11.066] Uh, that's a great question.

64:11

[01 04:11.066 – 01:04:12.186] I like that question.

64:13

[01 04:12.186 – 01:04:15.956] There's a couple of different groups like that that I've-

64:16

[01 04:16.144 – 01:04:16.735] long for a while.

64:18

[01 04:16.735 – 01:04:20.255] I used to go to Birds of a Feather for pilots in AA.

64:22

[01 04:20.255 – 01:04:28.155] And because they were ducking the, uh, FAA, they really, you know, they really took anonymity seriously.

64:28

[01 04:28.155 – 01:04:32.154] Uh, we have a group here in San Diego called Doctors and Lawyers.

64:33

[01 04:32.154 – 01:04:42.155] Anybody with a, with a doctorate of any kind, PhD, MD, JD, whatever, um, where, you know, a

64:39

[01 04:42.155 – 01:04:49.595] lot of those folks struggle, e- especially docs that have interactions with patients, they wanna have their anonymity preserved.

64:45

[01 04:49.595 – 01:04:51.135] They don't wanna, you know...

64:47

[01 04:51.135 – 01:04:52.715] And it takes them a while to get comfortable.

64:50

[01 04:52.715 – 01:04:53.875] Lawyers are the same thing.

64:52

[01 04:53.875 – 01:04:56.335] A very dear friend of mine is a prosecutor.

64:56

[01 04:56.335 – 01:05:00.365] Uh, this individual does not wanna show up at an open AA meeting- Yeah, yeah.

65:01

[01 05:00.365 – 01:05:00.535] That's true ...

65:02

[01 05:00.535 – 01:05:03.775] where there's people that just got out of jail that she put in jail.

65:07

[01 05:03.775 – 01:05:06.255] So it serves a purpose.

65:09

[01 05:06.255 – 01:05:09.155] Um, you know, there's a lot...

65:11

[01 05:09.155 – 01:05:19.775] The other bar here in California, the ILAA, International Lawyers in AA, you know, they have online meetings for just that purpose, and I- I think it serves a useful purpose.

65:21

[01 05:19.775 – 01:05:21.795] Uh, I wouldn't make a steady diet of it.

65:24

[01 05:21.795 – 01:05:26.575] I go to regular meetings 'cause, like I said, I'm about the least anonymous soul I know.

65:30

[01 05:26.575 – 01:05:32.075] And, uh, I don't go waving around on TV or radio or whatever.

65:35

[01 05:32.075 – 01:05:39.655] But, you know, it's hard for somebody to ask about how do they help their loved one if they don't know somebody helped me.

65:43

[01 05:39.655 – 01:05:40.655] Yeah.

65:44

[01 05:40.655 – 01:05:45.535] AA History Group, would you, uh, can you turn on your video?

65:48

[01 05:45.535 – 01:05:53.355] Okay.

65:48

[01 05:53.355 – 01:05:56.015] Would you like to unmute and ask Mick a question?

65:52

[01 05:56.015 – 01:05:58.775] Yeah.

65:53

[01 05:58.775 – 01:06:01.315] I, I put the question in the chat.

65:56

[01 06:01.315 – 01:06:02.855] I do wanna be anonymous.

65:57

[01 06:02.855 – 01:06:06.065] I'm in Washington, D.C., and I'd appreciate- Hope you don't- ...

66:01

[01 06:06.065 – 01:06:08.115] that if you could just look in the chat, please.

66:05

[01 06:08.115 – 01:06:09.215] Thank you.

66:06

[01 06:09.215 – 01:06:13.055] What does love and tolerance mean to you, Mick?

66:09

[01 06:13.055 – 01:06:14.855] Thank you.

66:10

[01 06:14.855 – 01:06:16.355] Those are good questions.

66:12

[01 06:16.355 – 01:06:19.015] Uh, I don't see them as the same thing.

66:15

[01 06:19.015 – 01:06:20.985] Love, I think, is service to other.

66:18

[01 06:20.985 – 01:06:26.614] Tolerance is that I don't like to do, uh, make amends on a 10th step, and so I don't kill people.

66:25

[01 06:26.614 – 01:06:36.635] Um, reality though is tolerance is understanding for me people are going to have difficulty in their recovery journey,

66:31

[01 06:36.635 – 01:06:47.395] just like I did, and I have to be open to the fact that just 'cause they're doing it differently than I might have or would have liked to have done it,

66:42

[01 06:47.395 – 01:06:50.215] um, that's their journey, not mine.

66:44

[01 06:50.215 – 01:06:57.975] And love, for me, is the ability to watch somebody grow and succeed.

66:49

[01 06:57.975 – 01:07:08.255] Uh, I've been there for my children, and, uh, you know, to see them be functioning, very useful members of society,

66:56

[01 07:08.255 – 01:07:18.275] not in AA, um, to have people or friends that I think so personally highly of, that, you know, it's really quite an

67:03

[01 07:18.275 – 01:07:19.235] amazing thing.

67:04

[01 07:19.235 – 01:07:25.215] I don't know that that answers your question, 'cause I'm not that profound today.

67:09

[01 07:25.215 – 01:07:27.235] But let me- Okay.

67:11

[01 07:27.235 – 01:07:34.315] We'll take one last question from Sarah, if you'd like to come in and ask a question.

67:17

[01 07:34.315 – 01:07:35.875] Hi, everyone.

67:18

[01 07:35.875 – 01:07:36.535] Thank you, Penny.

67:19

[01 07:36.535 – 01:07:38.215] I'm Sarah, alcoholic.

67:20

[01 07:38.215 – 01:07:40.295] Um, Mick, thank you very much.

67:23

[01 07:40.295 – 01:07:47.535] Um, I was wondering, um, you mentioned a couple of times that you're one of the least anonymous people, and I understand that.

67:30

[01 07:47.535 – 01:07:53.775] I live in a small town, it's kinda hard to be anonymous, and, and I never wanna be so anonymous that I'm unavailable.

67:38

[01 07:53.775 – 01:08:03.795] But I'm curious as to if that's ever prevented you from, or ha- has it ever caused you any problems, like, you know, like that when you remain

67:48

[01 08:03.795 – 01:08:05.475] so an- anonymous.

67:49

[01 08:05.475 – 01:08:07.515] And, and, and it's kind of a twofold question.

67:52

[01 08:07.515 – 01:08:17.535] One of the things, have you ha- have you allowed yourself to do things that, um, you know, like maybe go into prison

68:00

[01 08:17.535 – 01:08:18.955] meetings and stuff like that?

68:02

[01 08:18.955 – 01:08:23.295] As a lawyer, that would be kind of a, a place where you might wanna stay anonymous.

68:08

[01 08:23.295 – 01:08:26.035] But have you gone into prison meetings and, you know...

68:11

[01 08:26.035 – 01:08:33.015] I don't know if that makes sense, but I know that, and, and, and my anonymity has gotten kind of called out there a couple of times, so.

68:21

[01 08:33.015 – 01:08:34.654] Great, great questions.

68:22

[01 08:34.654 – 01:08:34.974] Thank you.

68:23

[01 08:34.974 – 01:08:35.135] Yeah.

68:23

[01 08:35.135 – 01:08:37.235] My, um, I...

68:25

[01 08:37.235 – 01:08:46.675] Answer the second part, I used to go into the brig at Camp Pendleton, but not the prisons, but the brig, which is the same thing, military, but that was before I was a lawyer.

68:36

[01 08:46.675 – 01:08:53.715] And yes, being open about my alcoholism has slowed things down.

68:40

[01 08:53.715 – 01:09:00.115] Um, the FAA, when I got sober, the FAA said to me, "God, we're glad you're sober.

68:46

[01 09:00.115 – 01:09:05.375] Uh, you can't fly anymore." Um, that was great.

68:49

[01 09:05.375 – 01:09:14.335] The California State Bar, I passed the test on the first try, but I had to convince them that I was actually sober enough to practice law.

68:58

[01 09:14.335 – 01:09:21.275] Um, so I, I'm sure it has cost me in other areas that I haven't paid attention to.

69:05

[01 09:21.275 – 01:09:31.355] I say I'm not anonymous, but there was a time not that many years ago where I would talk to law groups, law firms, and various bar associations all

69:14

[01 09:31.355 – 01:09:36.525] over, uh, and I would reveal that I was in recovery to them.

69:19

[01 09:36.525 – 01:09:43.185] Because almost always there was somebody in the room that would wanna talk afterwards or would want my number.

69:25

[01 09:43.185 – 01:09:53.335] And I'm sure there might have been some people that said, "Oh, we're not gonna hire this guy 'cause he's one of those drunks," even though I've been sober for 200 years, you know, kind of thing.

69:37

[01 09:53.335 – 01:09:55.655] But their loss.

69:39

[01 09:55.655 – 01:10:02.025] Well, Mick, I just wanna thank you for b- being willing to come and do this.

69:44

[01 10:02.025 – 01:10:11.155] And, uh, thank you so much for taking a call from a complete stranger that used Paul C.'s name in vain, and, and you were willing to say yes.

69:54

[01 10:11.155 – 01:10:21.295] And, um, for the rest of you, I just wanna let you know that, uh, we are here on the last Tuesday of each month doing Conversation with a Longtimer,

70:04

[01 10:21.295 – 01:10:25.095] and next month we'll be talking with, uh, Nancy M.

70:08

[01 10:25.095 – 01:10:26.255] from Seal Beach.

70:09

[01 10:26.255 – 01:10:36.255] And, um, and so I hope that, that y'all come back and, and come with your questions ready because, uh, that's one of

70:17

[01 10:36.255 – 01:10:38.815] the most fun parts of the ma- of the meeting.

70:20

[01 10:38.815 – 01:10:45.065] And, uh, so Mick, um, we don't usually close the meeting with, with a prayer.

70:26

[01 10:45.065 – 01:10:49.095] We can close with the, uh, responsibility statement.

70:28

[01 10:49.095 – 01:11:00.055] And, um, and we'll just, uh, if people want to, uh, if, if any, if y'all want to unmute, and we'll close with the responsibility

70:37

[01 11:00.055 – 01:11:00.935] statement.

70:37

[01 11:00.935 – 01:11:05.595] So who's responsible?

70:39

[01 11:05.595 – 01:11:07.755] I'm responsible.

70:40

[01 11:07.755 – 01:11:07.865] I'm responsible.

70:41

[01 11:07.865 – 01:11:08.685] Mick's responsible.

70:42

[01 11:08.685 – 01:11:08.755] Responsible.

70:42

[01 11:08.755 – 01:11:11.415] And anyone- Anyone, anywhere ...

70:44

[01 11:11.415 – 01:11:12.295] anywhere who's reached out for help.

70:46

[01 11:12.295 – 01:11:12.975] That reached out for help.

70:48

[01 11:12.975 – 01:11:18.165] I want the end of AA to always be there for them.

70:52

[01 11:18.165 – 01:11:18.165] Always be there.

70:54

[01 11:18.165 – 01:11:22.075] For that, I am responsible.

70:56

[01 11:22.075 – 01:11:22.205] Responsible.

70:56

[01 11:22.205 – 01:11:23.455] Thank you, guys.

70:58

[01 11:23.455 – 01:11:24.205] Thank you so much, Mick.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

9-30-2025 Conversation with Mick M presented by Unknown Speaker – 2025-09-30

9-30-2025 Conversation with Mick M presented by Unknown Speaker – 2025-09-30

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