History Workshop: Bobbie B. & Gary N.

Interactive Transcript

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0:00

Moderator Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop. Thank you everyone for joining us. My name is Tim and tonight's presentation is Bobby B. The Untold Story of Bill W.'s Fantastic Communicator. We meet here every Tuesday night at the same time using the same Zoom ID.

0:15

Bobbie And this meeting is being recorded. All past audio presentations are available at recoveryspeakers.com. We are not affiliated with any 12-step organization, though our goal is to focus on the history of AA and other 12-step fellowships. Recoveryspeakers.com is a 501c3 nonprofit dedicated to preserving and sharing the audio history of AA and the 12-step movement for today and for future generations. And we share a daily email featuring a different speaker talk from our library.

0:40

Bobbie Recordings from these meetings and flyers for upcoming presentations are included in those emails. If you would like to subscribe, use the link I'll be sharing in the chat in just a moment. Or you can send me an email at info at recoveryspeakers.com and I'll get you added to our list. And if you are able to support our work, contributions are appreciated. And you can use the QR code on the screen or I will be sharing a donation link in the chat in just a moment.

1:09

Moderator And tonight, after Gary's presentation, we should have some time for Q&A. If you have any questions for Gary, please write them down and be ready to ask them at the end. We should have a few minutes at the end. And I am going to close the chat during the presentation. I will open that back up after.

1:28

Bobbie And also just another reminder, the end of last weekend of March, the History Roundup in Myrtle Beach. And we will have Gail L. from Akron, Mike F. from Aurora, Jackie B. from San Francisco, and a whole assortment of archives.

1:41

Moderator And it's a great time soaking in the history and can't wait for it in a couple weeks. And we hope to see a bunch of you there. And now that is it for me. I'm going to go ahead and ask Gary to unmute. And really appreciate Gary sharing this updated version of the Bobby presentation.

2:00

Bobbie And I hope you all enjoy. All right there. I'm Gary. I'm an alcoholic. And it's wonderful to be included in this recovery forum.

2:09

Bobbie It's a real privilege to, you know, be part of. I'd like to start this actually with, you know, something that Bob Bizantz uses quite a bit. And, you know, with this investigation of Bobby continues. Bob Bizantz has come up with, you know, the pie of life. And that pie of life is what I know.

2:27

Bobbie And then another slice is what I don't know. And then another slice is in the largest one of all turns out to be what I don't know I don't know. And in many regards with as this presentation goes on and as it evolves, the part of which I don't know gets continuously gets larger. I didn't anticipate that, but that is where we are. And here we go.

2:51

Moderator AA's second and last national secretary. And I always put a Bill's picture up there. And there's a reason for that. When I first tried to get someone to publish the book, the response was why in the world would I ever want to publish a book that includes a nobody? Well, hopefully, if you haven't heard this presentation before, by the time it's done, you'll know that Bobby was a lot more than a nobody.

3:17

Bobbie Bobby was national secretary from March 2nd of 1942 until June 13th of 1949. In case that doesn't mean anything to you. People that are much better known. One is on the left there. Bill is with Ruth Hawk.

3:28

Bobbie And she was the first national secretary who got married on February 28th of 1942, moved to Cleveland. On the right is Nell Wing, who was hired as a receptionist when hired in 1947, became Bill's secretary in 1950. In a nutshell, Bobby is the one that is in between the two of them. And incidentally, Bobby being an alcoholic where both of the women that are pictured here were not. Bobby was born in 1903.

3:51

Bobbie She graduated from the exclusive Knox School in Tarrytown, New York. Her father was a very prominent lawyer. She enrolled in Columbia University. But her desire to pursue an acting career took priority. And actually, with some of those habits, she was very used to having a spotlight on her.

4:07

Bobbie And in some regards, her habits seemed to continue through her life that she continued to have a spotlight on her. And you can see these pictures are undated. But you can tell that she was a pleasure to look at. Part of her promotion, she was a dancer as well as she had some parts in some Broadway plays, not major ones. But she was acting in the late teens, in the early 20s, in the early 1920s.

4:32

Bobbie But her claim to fame really was with Donald Sawyer. In this day and age, hardly anybody remembers who he was. But Bobby was his dance partner. And, of course, in the 1920s, dancing was huge. You could fill up Madison Square Garden with contests on dancing, including the cha-cha or the calypso or so on.

4:50

Moderator And Donald Sawyer was more or less a colleague of Arthur Murray, somebody that actually is much better known. But at the same time, Donald would take Bobby to Europe. And she danced. And if there was a wealthy place in Europe, she probably danced there. And she was reputed to have danced in four different royalties of various countries.

5:09

Bobbie I came across this picture just very recently. It's a nice close-up of her. Most likely, this was when she was coming back from one of her tours to Europe on the SS Mauritania. But I thought it was a very worthwhile picture. I got this off of Ancestry.com just in the last week.

5:26

Bobbie She decided to get married to Norman Berger. That was on July 9th in 1925. Notice there's nothing to do with drinking here. I always get a kick out of the fact that she had to be stepping on a stepladder. She looks like she's 12 feet tall on the picture on the right.

5:43

Bobbie But you can see she was a pleasure to look at. And Mr. and Mrs. Norman Berger, who again married on July 9th of 1925. There's a picture, a very nice, sweet picture on the left.

5:54

Bobbie And very quickly, she ended up being the mother of two children. Sybil was the first one. And Gloria was the second. But unfortunately, very quickly, and after three and a half years of marriage, Norman Chapman Berger died of pneumonia. His obituary, a very short one, is on the left.

6:11

Bobbie And the chapel in which he died at the Emmanuel Baptist Church is on the right. And she was, again, after three and a half years of marriage, she was left a widow. She was married by 1932 to Irwin Shepard Spink. He was known otherwise as Shep. He pursued Bobbie, who was inevitably a pleasure to look at.

6:29

Moderator But their relationship was volatile from the very start. It's possible that Bobbie met him while she was a dance instructor for Arthur Murray. He was employed by Time Life Publication and Advertising. They moved to Detroit roughly after a year of marriage, then to Cleveland. Now, I'm a Clevelander.

6:45

Bobbie I don't mean to insult my hometown. But either city was a prison for Bobbie. She knew she could have been in Siberia for all that work. And her solution, this is where drinking started for her. Her Shep often would not come home at night due to business entertaining.

7:01

Bobbie So she started drinking heavily. And she didn't want to really be a housewife anyway. So she started to suspect her husband was cheating on her. By 1936, Shep refused to be embarrassed by Bobbie's drinking. And he tried to discipline her.

7:15

Bobbie And in 1936 began a four-year period of asylums and sanitariums. After a 10-day alcoholic binge when she ran away from her husband and children, her father and husband found her in the South. That might have been as far south. She made it to North Carolina on her own once. We don't know where.

7:32

Moderator They decided to have her hospital at Doctors Hospital in Manhattan in February of 1936. And basically, all they did was detox her. And at that time, Shep brought the children from Cleveland to Dodge Ferry, New York, where Bobbie's parents lived. And that was so Bobbie could go on vacation with Shep to Daytona. There was no mention of any need for her to stop drinking.

7:53

Moderator And incidentally, of course, her drinking was being treated, very common for the times, as if it was a mental illness. Meanwhile, Shep was dining with Henry Luce, one of the most influential private citizens in America to this day. The last thing in the world that Shep needed was to have a drunk wife that would embarrass him. And so he took the matter more or less into his own hands. So in 1924, he's dancing for the kings and queens of Europe.

8:20

Moderator By 1936, she's being spanked by her second husband for being a drunk. This picture is actually from a Sunday supplement in the American Weekly dated July 11th of 1943, which allegedly was brought a personality called Enid, E-N-I-D. But it was really biographical. Bobbie was telling her story up to that point at that time. And again, that was the humiliation that she was putting up with.

8:41

Bobbie So getting drunk again, she ended up, we don't name things like this anymore. The Hartford Retreat for the Insane. I think it's called the Institute of Living today. It's still around. She entered the Hartford Retreat for the Insane in May of 1936 for a few months.

8:56

Bobbie Dealing with mental cases, and that's what it was really for, Hartford Retreat, they figured if you gave someone a discipline or a talent, such as typing or crafts or pee, gardening, whatever it happened to be, that you would have a better chance to recover because you'd have a skill and be something to be proud of. Now, incidentally, they featured very sophisticated things like art lectures, delivery readings, bridge lessons, fashion shows. And what did that have to do with recovery from alcoholism? Well, guess what? It did not very much because as soon as she got out of the place, she relapsed.

9:30

Bobbie Is anyone having a surprise at that? And then she ends up at the New York Hospital, which is nominally known as Bloomingdale. And actually, that exists to this day. It's New York Hospital. We don't have actually what they did to Bobbie, but we do have a record of what Lillian Roth did 10 years later at the same location.

9:50

Bobbie And so you can imagine that it is most likely this is what Bobbie was putting up with when she was at Bloomingdale. However, in an institution like Bloomingdale, which really takes alcoholics, a chronic drinker receives psychiatric and medical treatment similar to that afforded regular mental patients. I had been this is again Lillian Roth. I had been without alcohol since my arrival. The Peraldehyde, vitamin injections and other medication helped tide me over.

10:13

Bobbie A community therapeutic shower followed breakfast to relax us. We sat in line naked, but for a sheet while nurses sprayed us with hot water, then tepid, then ice water needles. Gym and dancing followed. Isn't that wonderful? After a little fresh air, we were taken to a mental therapy rooms.

10:30

Moderator And here we go with trying to build self-esteem. Some painted, some sanded boxes, some made leather goods. Bedtime came swiftly enough. At eight o'clock, the bell rang, preparation for bath. And nine o'clock, the lights are out.

10:42

Bobbie So Christmas was spent with her husband and children at Dobbs Ferry at her parents. But Shep announced almost immediately that he wanted a divorce. He left Bloomingdale. She was there voluntarily. On January 2nd, 1937, a possible suicide attempt.

10:54

Moderator We're not sure that took place. And divorce finalized in June. Shep was married a third time. And very quickly, he had a child by that marriage. Stanford Hall was we know that Bobby was there.

11:06

Moderator This institution doesn't exist anymore. But it was one of the largest recovery places. And it's billed as the largest private sanitarium in New England. I'm not sure of that. But we learned of this, her being there because of the letters that her children were writing to her at that time.

11:23

Bobbie And you can tell, you know, serene surroundings were very part of many institutions. The Hartford Retreat for the Insane was like this as well. They always wanted to have lovely gardens surrounding the buildings and so forth to give a serene place where the recovery can take place. But in 1939, Bobby had an encounter with with Marty Mann. The source of this is Mrs.

11:44

Bobbie Marty Mann, the book. And a quote out of that, Marty took one look at the patient, which was Bobby. And decided she wouldn't spend any effort on her. He figured that she didn't have one chance in a million. Marty was wrong.

11:58

Moderator This woman did make it. Her name was Bobby. That's a very common misspelling. It really ends in IE at this time. Bobby eventually became the secretary of a general service office.

12:08

Bobbie And her name was known to all over the world. That's the unquote there. But then also Marty learned, and this is true for us. I swear this hasn't changed. Marty learned that one can't reliably predict what newcomer will get sober and who will not.

12:24

Bobbie And, of course, even in our day and age, some dweeb shows up at some meeting and you see him as a newcomer. And he turns out to be your GSR. And sooner or later, he's a DSM. And the guy you think that has everything gets drunk. I mean, who knows?

12:40

Moderator But then Bobby's letter to Lois. This is March 14th of 1940. And most likely Bobby was writing Lois because Lois was attending most of the meetings that Bill did at the 24th Street Clubhouse at the time. My dear Lois Wilson, your name was given to me by Dr. Alan White of White Plains.

12:58

Bobbie It's Bloomingdale again. May I please attend your meeting on Tuesday, March 19th at Steinway Hall. Very prestigious address. I don't know whether or not they have the larger auditorium. They had to have something smaller than that.

13:10

Moderator I would like to attend with the hope of becoming a permanent member if I qualify. Isn't that interesting? Becoming a permanent member. Bobby at this time also had something to go with her. She had a car when a lot of people didn't.

13:25

Moderator The first documented activity of Bobby Sober involved Bill and her 12-stepping her boyfriend Mac, Claude M, by driving him to High Watch Farm in Connecticut, 80 miles in June of 1940. Bobby had a car. At this time, Bill and Lois seemed to often lack transportation. They were often driven places rather than drive themselves. The first mention of Bobby in Lois's diary as Bobby part of a group from High Watch Farm.

13:48

Bobbie They went dancing on Saturday night. So you can see Bobby is very involved with Bill and Lois really from the very start of her sobriety. Bill rescues Bobby when she went haywire. Some people think this is her sobriety date. I'm not so sure about that.

14:03

Bobbie I think it dates from the end of March of 1940. But boyfriend Mac got drunk and was with another woman and Bobby did go nuts. Bill was driven by Jack W to rescue her. She was found in Mac's apartment. This episode has been referred to as when Bill quote-unquote 12-stepped Bobby as if this was her sobriety date.

14:22

Bobbie He did give her sedatives. Bill took her keys to her car and did not come home. That's again the source of Lois's diary. But by October 10th, all seems forgiven. While Bill left for an overnight visit to Philadelphia, Lois had dinner with Bobby and Mac before attending the AA meeting at the 24th Street Clubhouse.

14:40

Moderator Major events in 1941 related to Bobby. She became secretary of the 24th Street Clubhouse, which should be open sometime in February of 1940. The precise date she became secretary isn't known. It was a paid position. We don't know what it was paid.

14:54

Bobbie Dick S, the car smasher, warned her about overdoing. And from the very start, Bobby was an overdoer. She was very involved in the Saturday Evening Post article written by Jack Alexander in March of 1941. And Lois remembers there was actually an error. The error was that Lois thought that she and Bobby were the main people that did the responses to the Saturday Evening Post article.

15:15

Moderator Lois remembered that Ruth had been married in 1941. But of course, Ruth was still around and was at Vesey Street, while at the same time Lois and Bobby were answering from the 24th Street Clubhouse. It's an error that was corrected in later versions of Lois remembers. The AA prayer, I find this very interesting. Because that's what we call it, the serenity prayer.

15:36

Moderator At some time or another... We made the transition from calling it the AA Prayer to the Serenity Prayer, I have no idea when. But anyway, regardless of what it was called, Bobby used that from the very beginning. Bobby Vee and Ruth Haack, they remained good friends after Ruth moved to Cleveland and had the last name of Ruth Corselius. And it was Bobby is on the left and Ruth is on the right.

16:00

Moderator We don't have a date for this, but they look like they were very pleased with each other at the time. Bobby became national secretary on March 2nd of 1942, again after Ruth left after becoming married. And out of the AA comes of age, Ruth, written by Bill of course, Ruth was replaced by Bobby Vee who became AA's national secretary number two. Bobby's complete loyalty and devotion and her unbelievable energy and capacity for hard work were priceless helps during the confused and hazardous years, which now lay ahead of us. And honest to goodness, in many regards, I don't think many people appreciate just how confused and just how hazardous these years really were.

16:37

Moderator Around March of 1942, Bill tried to join the army. My heavens, what might have happened to us if he hadn't flunked the physical, which he did. Of course, he was already 47 years old at the time, but what would have become, we were talking about hazardous, my heavens, if Bill left, then who can say what would have happened to an Alcoholics Anonymous? There's a couple of Bobby writing of the progress going from 2000 people to 6,050 communities to 175 and answering 8,000 requests. Bobby on the job.

17:05

Bobbie It's a wonderful feeling to have and to know that there are so many friends all over the country assisting and supporting our great program. Personally, I just love my job and I can't imagine any work that can give me more happiness. Very shortly, Bill W. and I are going to set down some answers to the questions you wrote in on group activities and organization. We hope to have a booklet I mentioned to you as well on the way by now, but I'm thinking the matter over.

17:34

Moderator We have decided to do it through in a thorough manner and this will take time. This begins a process that Bobby is the only alcoholic that is employed at the GSO or the foundation back then until the mid-1946. Bobby is the alcoholic. Bobby is the woman that understands. Bobby is the sole alcoholic at the office that Bill can bounce, that's employed there, that is there most of the time that Bill can bounce his thoughts off it.

18:00

Moderator To what degree was Bobby an assistant in forming the traditions? We don't know, but it's inevitably many of the conversations that led to the traditions, she was at minimum a very active participant. This is a picture of Dr. Bob personally signed to Bobby in the lower right-hand corner, which I blew up and I think this picture on eBay was selling for something like $22,000 at one time. I don't know if anybody ever paid that or not.

18:25

Bobbie I'm not up to date, but it did show that and unfortunately, I have very little in the book that on Dr. Bob and that is not intentional. I wasn't clued in enough to be able to ask for where Dr. Bob's stuff was even kept at the GSO. I thought it would be along with Ohio, but that turned out to be a mistake.

18:47

Moderator He has his own selection and I didn't ask for it and that's what was necessary to get permission to look at it, which I never had. And AA's pledge for national defense and self-preservation. World War II, this is March of 1942 going on and this is no such thing as traditions at the time, but this was very common in the newspaper. I got this out of the folders that are kept at the GSO. I will keep myself physically, mentally, spiritually to be ready for any crisis and discipline myself for strength.

19:17

Bobbie I will go about my business with a clear eye, a cool head and a stout heart, neither scared by wild rumors or deluded by false security. I will help build my town as a wholesome, balanced community. I will work for unity among our people and oppose efforts to create hatred based on race, creed, or color. Not bad for 1942. What do you think?

19:38

Moderator And of course, this is again, war zone and Bobby actually in their copious spare time is actually staying up late at night at a nearby Air Force base to make sure that it's an attack. We have to keep our people on duty 24 hours, 24 seven. A plan for AA's in the armed services. This was May 15th in 1942. She's been on the job now for two and a half months.

20:01

Moderator As we know, many of our members are now in the service of the United States and without reading the rest, she's trying to maintain that when soldiers move from location to location in the military, she wants to be the groups, the AA's get to know that where each other happens to be. So she started tracking them and acting for asking for addresses all the time. By the time she handed this over responsibility to over to the grapevine, the list had grown to 300 members. How to sponsor a country, Australia. Australia was ahead of the curve when remembering Bobby, they have a 2014 book called One to Another, which is their AA comes of age.

20:38

Bobbie The first 180 pages of One to Another are basically all about the correspondence Bobby was having with the co-founders of AA in Australia. There's also some of Lillian Roth when she was in Australia and that Lillian Roth talking to Bobby as well. But when you read what Bobby can write, this looks like something that Bill could write. Our members come from all walks of life. Our spiritual concepts are broader.

21:01

Bobbie Members are Catholics, Protestants, and Jews, and most nationalities are represented in round figures. We believe that we have about one woman member, the seven men, jumping down to what's bold. Bill W., who wrote the text of the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, and I are now editing a compilation of group experiences over the past five years. This may be out this summer. And again, this is 1943 in February, may be out this summer.

21:25

Bobbie We will be glad to send you a copy if you are interested. Nothing ever came of that as far as I know. But again, this is one of those indications, and there are many others, of how at least Bobby is acting as an assistant to Bill, maybe doing some of the typing, who knows. But on another matter altogether, you'll be familiar with the forward to the first edition, which we are too few at present to handle the overwhelming number of personal appeals which may result from this publication. That's the forward to the first edition.

21:57

Bobbie I had never heard of this, and maybe you hadn't either. But until at least October 20th in 1943, the AA's headquarters phone number was unlisted. Inevitably, what they were afraid of is being overwhelmed, just like they were, the reason why they wanted to stay anonymous. They could have got buried under an avalanche of personal correspondents otherwise. So the conclusion was most often the only way to contact AA as a newcomer back then was to write New York.

22:23

Bobbie Bobby was the essential day-to-day conduit of communications for almost all of Alcoholics Anonymous domestically and internationally, except for cities like Cleveland and Chicago that had formed their own intergroups. We have a recovery infrastructure today, which I think many people just take for granted. We have meetings all over the place. We got meeting schedules. We got meetings going on in each of the areas and so on.

22:44

Bobbie But remember, that didn't exist back then. And up until at least early 1946, Bobby was the only headquarters staff member that was also an alcoholic. AA's cooperation with the war effort through 1943 and 1945, Bobby repeatedly encouraged warn of the Kaiser shipyards in Richmond, California. I was corrected during one of these presentations because basically Kaiser, we think of Kaiser as being Kaiser Permanente in medical, but there was also a medical wing at Kaiser back then as well. So it's this, believe it or not, this is the same Kaiser, even though it's a different division altogether.

23:16

Bobbie The company listed him to be a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. The AA Richmond group openly helped to keep employees sober. The effort was reported to have saved 44 man years, which was back then, it was a newspaper article and it was a big deal. At DuPont, an AA member was confidentially employed as being a member of the personnel department. All drunks were routed to him.

23:37

Bobbie Akron also had somewhat of a similar arrangement, as I understand it. The AA also reprinted a thousand copies of two employers for the purpose of assisting the war effort. They were to distribute it to defense plans. Here we have the first letter of Bill to Bobby, and this is part of the treasure chest. This was a treasure chest of letters that were discovered that were in Vermont that nobody had seen for 70 years.

24:01

Bobbie This is Bill writing to Bobby personally in his own hand for purposes of confidentiality, and it suggests also how they shared with each other. Now, I'm sure that Bobby was writing back. We have none of those, of any of her responses, but we do have Bill's correspondence. Nothing can be, this is again, Bill, nothing can be such a break on the joy of living as to have one around in a black mood, whose pall covers everybody in reach, and especially with you so very tired. I was really a mean exhibition of childishness for which I am very, very sorry.

24:35

Bobbie I wish I might be endowed with the words to tell you just how deeply and affectionately I regard you as Bobby, my dear partner of our fabulous enterprise. Skipping down to the bold, you have been doing just that so loyally, so beautifully. Bobby, dear, that I know I shall be inspired to follow your example, forgive me. I have been so often dead weight to be carried. Bill's West Coast discovery.

24:58

Bobbie This is when Bill is going up and down California, Oregon, and Washington State, and he's noticing as he does so, is that basically every one of these meetings were always very similar to each other in terms of how they orchestrated. Their meetings. And what he realizes, this is the work that Bobby is doing that nobody knows about at the foundation. Again, the foundation wasn't called the GSO until, I believe, in 1954. But this is where Bill realizes what Bobby is doing.

25:25

Bobbie And in the bold here, this speech making of mine is a pleasant luxury for people here, but no necessity, thank heaven, it is on the contrary, you who is needed. More and more. I see what you mean to them. They tell me. A rare newspaper quote by Bobby, and of course, she's called Miss Bobby Burger, but she was really a missus.

25:45

Bobbie I don't think she ever took the last name of her second husband, but you can just see that she's credited with 1,000 women of former alcoholics and helping assisting them. But very briefly, her meeting, when she was at such a location with Bill, he was always the main attraction, and she would just probably say just a few words, because again, the spotlight was always on Bill. Bobby, and this is the part of the role that Bobby started to play, which was not very obvious until the 1,000 letters that came out of the GSO was examined, which I did in 2019 and 2020. It was Bobby calming the rumors repeatedly about Bill's health. June 30, 1944, Bill is being forced into taking a vacation.

26:25

Bobbie He has no overdone for the last 10 years, and the doctor, now, it's always doctor. It's never psychiatrist, but in fact, what it was, was psychiatrist. Bill in his own words in a book called My Search for Bill W., Mel Barger, in a letter that Bill wrote Mel Barger in 1956, Bill admitted to being depressed for eight of the 12 years between 1943 and 1955. So it's ironclad that Bill was having terrific difficulties with depression. Why?

26:49

Moderator I swear, this is only a theory, and I will share it with you, but it is that there are documents, there are letters that were written to both Bobby and Bill that were, I will call them the nasty grams, that were absolutely awful, nontraditional accusations of them being drunk from coast to coast or whatever. And due to copyright restrictions, it's possible that a grandchild of somebody who wrote one of the nasty grams, which is a restricted file at the GSO, which no one can see, no one, permission or not. It is due to copyright laws, if the copyright of a letter stays in the possession of the person who wrote it for 70 years from the time that they died. So it's still under the copyright. So a grandchild of the person who wrote the nasty gram, if the nasty gram was published in our litigation-crazy society that we have, a lawsuit could result.

27:40

Bobbie So that's why the files happen to resort. But this is the part in which we don't get to see why was Bill so depressed? Well, he was prone to moods swinging anyway. And of course, he had a lot of people that disagreed with him on his approach. We have no idea of what was coming at them and how many people were bitterly criticizing them.

28:01

Bobbie And, you know, it might be decades before we are actually allowed through copyright laws and in the demand of the conference to find out our own history that will get the full story. And many of us won't be around to see it. But I have every hope that that will take place. And in August of 15th of 1944, the doctors asked that Bill not receive any so-called business mail. And it was the nasty grams.

28:26

Bobbie So I'm holding your letter until he returns. I'm sure you will understand and agree that we must think of Bill's health first. So long, you only thought of us. Merry Christmas to you all from the trustees, from Bobby and Lois and me. Bill Wilson.

28:41

Bobbie And that is I'm not reading the whole. This was in the Cleveland Central Bulletin, but I'm reading you just the last line again. Merry Christmas to us all from the trustees, from Bobby and Lois and me. That is Bobby's company, the trustees, Bobby, Lois and me. And with that kind of in 1944, you want to ask how in the world could she have ever been almost totally forgotten?

29:04

Moderator New wartime edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous, the eighth edition of the eighth printing of the first edition you'll see was the smallest of the book. And Bobby had everything to do with its creation. She was writing the fellowship. We have now arrived at the point. This is in February 12th of 1945.

29:22

Moderator We arrived at the point where because of further reductions in paper, we must sharply cut the overall size of the book by trimming margins to a minimum. You know, I noticed that the ninth printing happens to be a little larger. I don't understand that. We don't have an explanation there, but practically every publisher long ago has been obliged to make these changes. I have a couple of books from World War, this time period, and they've been shrunk as well.

29:49

Moderator Bobby on the May 1945 grapevine, skipping down to the fourth line, Bobby B., five years in AA, though Bobby works and how here in Manhattan, she is perhaps even better known to the thousands with whom she corresponds all over the country in her capacity as a national secretary of the central office in New York. It's 1942. Before that, she was the secretary of the Manhattan Group, and before that, as Bobby herself puts it, I was just a drunk. More of Bobby's role of protecting Bill from the fellowship. All I've got time to do, and because I'm running long again, December 18th of 1945, perhaps you have not heard that the doctors, again, not psychiatrists, doctors put Bill away from active work about a year and a half ago, and he seldom comes into the office, all work having to do with new groups, and in fact, practically all the correspondence now clears through my desk.

30:39

Moderator Bobby is running the show, and here we go again. We don't know the background which led Bill to do this, but the possibility that Bill might retire. This is a letter written to the chairman of the trustees, Leonard Harrison. At the last meeting of the foundation, there was a discussion of the possibility that I might retire from active participation in the central office and work publishing the central office under the guidance of the trustees, me, and two excellent national secretaries, that was Ruth and Bobby, have been the keystone of the arch under which thousands of alcoholics have found their way to a new way of life. Skipping down to the bottom, again, for time, few have contributed more to our success than Ruth Haack and Margaret B., that's Bobby, may their kind, continuous national secretaries forever.

31:24

Bobbie Obviously, this is before any thought of rotation. More from the same article, a letter that Bill wrote to Leonard Harrison. For the past year and a half, I made few decisions, nor have been much at the central office. I'm happy to say that Mrs. B., occasionally consulting with the trustees on the detail side of the office, has done an excellent job.

31:45

Moderator She has operated work publishing. incorporated recently turning out a large new edition of books without any assistance from me whatsoever. Don't have time to read anymore. This is a picture of Bobby, one of the few that were actually on the internet prior to the publication of the book that stands behind this story. The Empty Jug.

32:03

Bobbie Carl Kay got some sober after some false starts on July 18th of 1944. He founded an AA four-page newspaper in September of 1944 in Chattanooga, Tennessee with six weeks of sobriety. No evidence that he ever had a sponsor. He was seriously offended when the Grapevine was declared to be the official magazine of AA. He thought he was qualified.

32:22

Moderator Bobby repeatedly encouraged Carl to practice anonymity which he refused. Despite Bobby's repeated attempts, Carl simply disregarded her words. This led to Bill getting involved and all I have time for in this is basically to say I like reading. In fact, if you knew me better you could see I'm not what you think I am. You would see that I, like yourself, am just one more fallible alcoholic trying to get along.

32:46

Moderator You might see yourself as an able newspaperman with no AA experience. You would see me as a person with no newspaper experience but nevertheless one who knows National Pulse. This was actually his attempt to be very conciliatory with with Carl on October 23 for 1945 with what he was writing in the empty jug but that didn't work and Carl ignored Bill altogether which caused to a follow-up letter. This is actually there's six slides and to do this whole letter justice but all I have time for under this set of circumstances is for Bill and this the underliner in the original but I beg of you please don't use the empty jug to fight anybody or anything because that is not AA. It's a hell's broth that will only burn you and the rest of us in the end.

33:32

Bobbie Can you see? I mean this is November of 1945 and you can see the needs for something like their traditions or guidelines are absolutely essential but nevertheless this won't it didn't stifle Carl at all and he came up with these rumors that rules were being created in New York for group organization and he thought it was just a bunch of nonsense and he ridiculed the idea thinking that you know we have as many walking organization manuals now as there are members. Okay so he thought whatever was going on in New York didn't make any difference and of course this was one month prior to the announcement of what became our traditions and which he paid no attention to whatsoever either due to the fact that he in June of 1946 he complained about harassment from New York. He was breaking anonymity of all AA members. He insisted that the atheists are fools and idiots if that doesn't get your attention.

34:24

Bobbie He wished to a machine gun liquor company executives that compared to be compared to a nest of snakes. He wanted to take that he accused he wanted to take them to take over the country turning people into human derelicts. He wrote a headquarters thought Manhattan the home of the Garden Eden and the throne of God and on top of everything else he accused Hollywood movie executives of murder. Who did he leave out? My heavens.

34:49

Bobbie Anyway that was his opinions and they couldn't shut him up but he said well this is the way it worked but God did for us what we couldn't do for ourselves apparently because he dropped dead the next month. True story you couldn't make up that story in a bit. This is Bill's February 27th letter the 1946 letter again and it is reflective of what again we don't know what Bill was experiencing and we will never know that in full until we get the full knowledge of what he was having to put up through correspondence. Yesterday's experience in town has convinced me that I shall have to hasten my parting with our national activities. He was ready to he was ready to quit worse because a hundred such experiences have worn any what could they have been have worn any lingering hope that I shall never be better under present conditions.

35:39

Moderator The power of my obsession is finally dispelled the illusion that it could ever be basically improved as things are now. Skipping down to the last paragraph here I'll add last year I wanted a thousand times to make a decision but I could not I would hope something might turn up your remedy a diversion or maybe a fresh experience that would bring a release. Now the only thing that about the wrong about the letter on the right it's written in the yellow paper that he used but I didn't when I paid for this to be copied and sent down to me I only paid for black and white. This is continuing and again I only have time to read on the bold I lived on borrowed time and I feel I belong to AA that I had no right to make this new bid for personal freedom feeling no ability to decide that conflict I collapsed in the same way about coming to New York when here I'm irresistibly drawn there when there I must fly back here that deadlock can't continue too much longer without serious consequences there has to be a decision and I don't see how it can be the decision to stay on we've given that a one or two year trial no one can stand forever the whipsaw of the decision but nevertheless here's Bobby's personal observations about Bill he's tops in my book and there never was nor ever never will be another Bill W that was written all the way back in 1943 he is such a naive person that hasn't the slightest idea how truly great he is it takes a bill to turn on the lights so to speak someday all of this early history will be written I suppose in Bill's biography for I can see that coming even if he can't she could see a lot coming Bill has given us his last 10 years without any thought of himself written in 1944 this is a picture of Bobby and when she was in San Francisco for two weeks on a vacation the only time she made it to the west coast and I don't have time for this other than that trip ended up that she was accused of making the trip so that she was offered fifty thousand dollars representing AA for movie rights that it turned out to be another Luella Parsons gossip column which went nationwide but not anything that is written here that's these what happens to be in black was all Luella Parsons words and and not any of it was true AA's explosive growth through 1945 to 49 look at the numbers everything goes up close to four times to five times and this was an explosive growth that Bobby tried to keep pace with it could have put a great deal of pressure on her now and again as she said nobody asked her to work the way that she did but she tried to keep up with this explosive growth and it cost her dearly but nevertheless in April of 1947 prior to the concept of basically rotation here's this is a paragraph out of a document called the alcoholic foundation of yesterday today and tomorrow that it was written by bill in April of 1947 at our general service offices the vast outcome of nine years of exciting experience reposes in our files and in the heads of our two secretaries as Bobby and her assistant of at times Charlotte because of their station at the heart of AA they are bound to have a broader view of the most of us out of the strenuous experience they have developed effective ways of handling the multitude they have an immense personal acquaintance that stretches all over the globe and that statement was absolutely true but nevertheless the times were changing and this is in October of 1947 these are two grapevine articles these are excerpts from two grapevine articles both written by bill times have changed as everyone knows as exceeded our wild expectations speaking for Dr. Bob and myself didn't mention Bobby there we feel that we oldsters need not take the prominent roles that we once did Bobby was one of the elders then AA may be able to function upon the power of its own fundamental principles rather than on the prestige or inspiration of a highly personalized leadership Bobby provided a highly personalized leadership Bobby's observation in January of 1948 Bill is struggling and underneath all my agreement I realize his wisdom AA must one day learn to operate without Bill and he and that meant without her too and he hopes to see that the structure go into effect when he is around he simply cannot answer every letter that comes in and usually tosses his mail to either Charlotte that's the assistance or me for answering Bill is spending all his time writing on working on the traditions and so on and this is also the letter from Tom Yutzi of the grapevine to Bill W in April 20th of 1948 this is to Bill I know that you have sought through your organization plans to prevent the development of a bureaucracy and AA and the creation of positions of personal power I also think that more wildly the policies of anonymity in office rotation of office principle over person and service over career can be applied to all AA activities the safer the future of the movement will be Bill's 1948 Christmas message all I have time for I won't read the message but the following the first purpose of this here we go again in 19 at Christmas of 48 it's signed the trustees the grapeviners Dr.

40:48

Moderator Bob and Bobby Lois and I wish you the happiest of new years of the you know again that's the company that Bobby very much belongs to Bobby's April 13th 1940 letter regarding Bill's trips to Des Moines he attended to visit Des Moines in Minneapolis in October 1948 he intended to visit Denver and some of the larger centers but his health gave out he did go to Des Moines Iowa and Minnesota because he had definite commitments and then and larger conference has been planned but his doctor would not let him take on anything more he has been very inactive on AA affairs for some time perhaps you did not known he's been on and off the sick list for four years you know I'm not sure how exactly accurate that is I he was by that time he wasn't at the central office or at the GSO the foundation all that office I think he mainly was in at stepping stones far more than he was actually and that was showing a separation by and large between Bobby and Bill which was very costly to Bobby she didn't have the close relationship to Bill that she did have and this is a poem dated June 10th of 1949 if you see a tall fellow ahead of a crowd a leader of men marching fearless and proud and you know of a tale who's more telling aloud would mean that is in that his head must in anguish be bound it's a pretty good plan to forget it if you know of a thing that will darken the joy of a man or a woman a girl or a boy that will wipe out a smile or the least way annoy or cause any gladness or brightness to cloy it's a pretty good plan to forget it this was dated June 10th of 1949 we don't know who wrote it it's very likely that Bobby did if she would did this was the last thing she wrote as her role as national secretary she resigned on June 13th of 1949 she uh she resigned without without any notice she just left she is likely to have relapsed previously she really wished to learn why she drank and this she wrote this to uh she made an explanation to uh Leonard Harrison while still at Bloomingdale with Dr. Thiebaud on June 27th of 1949 no one could be more grateful than I to be here with Dr. Thiebaud I had hoped I often prayed to hang on until August in the vacation but that would have been only a temporary solution for something which has been fundamentally wrong for me for years probably long before I found a a compulsive frantic activity which I'm ensnamed necessity turned me into a machine which could not stop until it broke down in every way no one could ever made me or even ask me to work as I did I just couldn't help it and I didn't know why accolades for all around the world this I again for the interest of time I'll just read a few the work you have done for AAs I'm reading the third one and the states and abroad will go on now AAs remembering always the deepest gratitude how much they owe you now you will know that I am with you in prayer all the time and hope you enjoy every minute of your rest here the ones are from Australia the other ones from New Zealand the rest of these I mean I there's three I've got three or four times the number of accolades these letters that people for because the people in the field knew her so much better than people in New York because nobody was reading her stuff in New York they were all reading it out in the field and of course she went from when there were two countries and they were associated with age of 24 and she also had the handbook her hand fingerprints had to be all over the handbook of the secretary that came out in September 9th of 1949 without any mention of her whatsoever Bobby's amends to Bill and Lois which is September 16th of 1949 again now Bobby's been out of the job for about three months I understand that you're still feeling badly I'm sorry more than I can tell you I so wish I might find your way that you could find your way out of your darkness I think of you often I pray for you much it is so much easier to pray for others than for oneself have you ever been able to understand how much I wish I could have avoided the pain caused you and Lois it is beginning to come to me that these things cannot be explained in words but are only felt through understanding because of my illness and the so little I know of it a small bit of the suffering you have gone through is clear to me about eight years ago you opened the door to 30 Beasley street and so doing you gave me what might have been a useful life along the way I took a detour and I lost myself I hope one day that I can earn the right to do something so you will feel your faith in me was not missed completely misplaced you can you can recognize the depression that are in this work in these words but Bill's reply to Bobby's amends which was written 11 days later you said you felt sorry that you had caused Lois and me disturbance so far as I'm concerned that will always be quite the other way around I cannot doubt that my own obstinate yes downright willful illness hung around hung like a millstone around your neck God knows how long I've been learning to that self-condemnation leads so subtly but so surely to the condemnation of others I often wish the word blame could be taken out of my feeling and speech forever wow blame could be taken out of my feeling and speech forever wow I have always looked up to you your illnesses notwithstanding as a person of marvelous inner integrity something far more basic than I ever had I want you to know how much I appreciate this great gift of yours how you went all out to share it with me there was some rumors having to do with Bobby's departure from the foundation that she was fired which is not true this is convincing evidence that actually over the trustees meeting of July 25th of 1949 granted her two thousand dollars for medical expenses and then following in either in October oh this is November of 1949 the trustees voluntarily made a gift to her but for the sum of three thousand seven hundred and fifty dollars put that into your inflation calculator she was granted a seventy seven thousand departure amount that's not somebody that was fired that's somebody who resigned and then the trustee started to recognize what she had contributed and uh and they did their best to uh and they made it a gift so she wouldn't have to the three thousand seven hundred and fifty made a guess show she wouldn't have to pay taxes on it Bill's Christmas letter to Bobby Christmas makes me want to say some things not new things just old ones you mustn't ever forget I want you to remember since I am the only one who can have any real idea of what your labor meant to AA in its infancy just how much I appreciate and love you for that then there is your capacity for devotion of which Lois and I and so many have been continuous receiver for years though in my case your unswerving loyalty was so often undeserved also believe that pain can be and usually is the price of touchstone of progress anybody get the 12 and 12 step 10 out of that but I this is this is way ahead of that but I know it's hard to cling to that fact when suffering is intention you feel done I now understand that you must have been your feelings as you helplessly had to watch me stuck in the murk if only neurosis could be more enjoyable those are what those letters work and again this is all part of the treasure chest that came out of Vermont that nobody had seen any of these letters for 70 years she had a brief career in the movies this was a Bobby's Hollywood credit movie one too many released in 1950 she was also an advisor for Hal Wallace in the movie Comeback Little Sheba in 1952 which starred Byrd Lancaster and earned Oscar for Shirley Booth and she also stayed connected enough to AA that when Bob when Dr. Bob died she was the fourth person to sign the guest book Bill's letter to Bobby in Christmas of 1950 never has there been a Christmas where old friends were such a cause for gratitude and to none do I owe more than you those days we were together when we helped fashion the shapes of things to come and boy did they ever I sat down in my book of the never to be forgotten my endless thanks to you dear Bobby should 1951 bring any cloud mates should be dispelled and may I help you do that for now Merry Christmas dear partner Bobby dancing where their daughter and daughter Sybil's wedding where their son in-law, Robert Edwards. This is the last picture we have of her.

49:27

Bobbie And she's wearing one of those little hats which Nell Wing described that she would wear. But she was tortured. A 99-page dream diary. And from the quote of the 12th and 12th, page 57, almost without exception, alcoholics are tortured by loneliness. This is a diary began in June of 1949 at Blythewood, soon after her resignation.

49:45

Bobbie Entries included until mid-1952. If she had any pleasant dreams, she didn't write any of them down. Death or murder, tragedy were often subjects. Tired of living alone was one of her quotes. Drinking or drinking accusations found most often along with the resulting guilt, punishments, and sanitariums.

50:00

Bobbie She didn't have any dream of that without mentioning pills. Charlotte was Bobby's best and probably only female friend. No evidence of her presence in New York after 1949. Charlotte got drunk too. Relapsed in the summer of 1949 as well.

50:13

Moderator Dreams about Bill Wilson occurred frequently. Sometimes she felt close to him. Other times she felt she was being harshly judged. Sometimes she was back in the office but ignored. There's no question that she loved Bill.

50:25

Moderator Both of her Bobby's daughters insisted that they both loved Bill. And that comes straight out of Bobby's grandchildren. Her parents and daughters were often subjects. AA mentioned only a few times. Again, but Bobby had really no sponsor, but she did rely upon Dr.

50:40

Moderator Thiebaud in 20 dreams. 16 dreams of unknown men. Sometimes engaged, sometimes married, sometimes abused. She was a blackout drinker. She loses her jewelry often in the dreams.

50:48

Bobbie She often dreams of men she met in Europe during her dancing. But what became absolutely clear is that when this woman went to sleep, the nightmares started and the nightmares tortured and the nightmares exhausted her. She died on February 17th, 1953 by a planned suicide at the age of 49. 24 years after the death of her husband, almost to the day of her beloved husband. Family shame led to a lie.

51:10

Bobbie The cause of death was reported to be from chronic cardiovascular disease. She wanted no funeral. Bobby's last words, darling, I love you. Please forgive me. I've got to do this.

51:21

Moderator Fell Lauren, which is where's her grandchild. And Lauren was the, was present at Recovery Speakers the first time this was presented. That was quite an event. Or tell Lauren when she grows up that I love her, but I can't face her. No record that she, that Bobby ever had a sponsor was Bill.

51:39

Bobbie No record of her attended regular meetings in New York. Once became national secretary, proving that service may be a wonderful idea and a contribution, but it doesn't make, it doesn't substitute for working the art program. A became simply too much like a job. Her compulsive pursuit of the job became obsessive and without it, she lost her equilibrium. Her nightmares became a living hell.

52:00

Moderator She drank in 1949 and 51, at least, but did not have, she did have periods of sobriety. Attended AA meetings in California, not a partner, not a dancer, not a national secretary. The role was eliminated, eliminated by the principles of rotation and anonymity. She was succeeded by two general secretaries, Mary Mallett and Ruth Brain. For the first time I'm presenting you, that's her suicide note that was written to her, her, her grandchild, Lauren.

52:24

Bobbie Hard to read, but that's what the suicide meant. Bill's March, 1953, AA grapevine tribute. Margaret B, affectionately known throughout AA as Bobby, passed away in her sleep on February 17th of an unforesealed heart ache. Now that's what her birth certificate said, and that was Bill was, that was Bill was taught, was told, excuse me. She headed our general service office in New York in all the years of AA's adolescence, an exciting but fearsome period when no one could tell the difference when no one could tell for sure whether or not our fledgling society would survive or not.

52:57

Bobbie Again, whether our fledgling society would survive or not. I don't, again, I don't think we take, we have a tendency to take for granted that we really have not properly recognized what kind of experience was necessary for AA to survive the 1940s. Across her desk became thousands of pleas for help from individuals and hundreds from growing but anxious groups who wanted to be advised of the latest AA experience and meeting the problems that assailed them. It was out of this experience that AA's tradition was formed, and upon our tradition, her devoted labor sent a mark which would endure so long as God will have our society last. Her pioneering work has proved an inspiring precedent for every intergroup and foundation secretary, and her departure creates in the heart of each of her friends a void which can only be filled by the memory of what she left us and the assurance that her destiny is happy and secure.

53:50

Bobbie And my heavens, this is one of the finest letters I've ever written, and it's Bill, I've ever read, and it's Bill writing to Gloria. Gloria is the daughter, again, of Bobby, and this is dated about six weeks after Bobby passed. This is to tell you how deeply I share the loss of your good mommy with you, and I also write to offer you every reassurance and possible help that I can. My first recollection is that of the tremendous debt of gratitude we all owe her. I think of the thousands she helped, the many who will never realize the unfailing devotion and love she gave them.

54:25

Moderator Then there will be the times people like you and me who were close, who did better understand her magnificent spirit and her love for us. All this we are bound to appreciate more and more as time passes on. I know this will be as true for me as it will for you, and my great regret will be that I failed to return in kind all that she gave me, that she never seemed to receive from life, all that she put into it. Yet I am sure you must share with me the comforting thought that a new life, a little way out of our sight and hearing has only begun, and that it surely must be filled with a bright promise for no one that I have ever known could be more deserving. If at any time you feel the need of anything that I can do for you, please call me instantly.

55:15

Bobbie Thus I shall be able to show you the affection I bear for your mother and for you devotedly, Bill. Margaret Roberts Berger. Thanks to the location of Bobby's, some work done by Brian Koch that he was able to locate where the ashes of Bobby rest, and nobody, I'm hoping in the future people will end up dropping some coins off because the Lord knows she deserves it. The mausoleum that we're looking at is in the Cypress Hill Cemetery in Brooklyn, New York, and thanks to Brian who did some real investigation work to bring us that knowledge. A possible conclusion.

55:48

Bobbie Bobby's suicide note stated, I've got to do this. Robert Thompson in his biography of Bill wrote in 1975 for many, Bill W had become their spiritual mentor. It seemed inconceivable that their Bill, who had been released from obsession, had not had the same means been freed from every other difficulty and defeat. They simply did not want to believe that this man could be on occasion be crippled by depressions. End quote.

56:12

Bobbie Had Bobby lived and shared what she knew about Bill, she could have seriously damaged Bill's reputation, which have undermined his guidance and harmed Alcoholics Anonymous. She had thanklessly protected and guarded Bill all of her years as National Secretary. Why did we not get to know her? Why was she all but forgotten by the vast majority of the fellowship? She never told her story.

56:33

Bobbie She could not tell her story. She knew too much. She couldn't possibly tell her story. And she was tortured by loneliness. AA's fantastic communicator, that's his Nell Wing quote.

56:43

Bobbie Can't tell you the number of Alcoholics all over the world who owe their sobriety to that special lady. That's again, Norwood and Nell Wing, grateful to have been there. And among her private papers, very little has been found critical of anyone except herself. One of the only two National Secretaries that AA ever had. I can't possibly fit this full story into just a presentation as brief as this one.

57:07

Moderator But if you want more, that's where you'll find it. And thank you for letting me share. Thank you so much, Gary. Great job, Gary. We do have some time for questions.

57:18

Bobbie If anyone has questions, you can use the raise hand function and I will ask you to unmute. No questions, huh? All right, Gary, you, oh, June, you can unmute and ask your question. Hi there, wonderful presentation. Thank you so much, Gary.

57:31

Bobbie I know she was a great lady, but it was nice to get to know you. And I'm glad to be here. Thank you so much for having me. She was a great lady, but it was nice to get to know her better. I thought you had said she had two daughters, right?

57:48

Bobbie Was Bill in communication with the other daughter that you know of? No, I don't know that Sybil was ever contacted the way that Gloria was. So I have no evidence of that. But I would imagine Gloria would have shared that with her sister. Right, right.

58:04

Moderator I was just curious if Bill kept in touch with both of them. But thank you again for the presentation. It was wonderful. You're very welcome. Thank you, June.

58:13

Moderator And next is Mark, you can unmute. Thank you. Thanks so much, Tim. Gary, thanks for your passion. Any chance you know if Bobby was a patient of Dr.

58:22

Moderator Thiebaud, she seemed to have quite an affection for him. And he had been mentioned a few times. And I know he'd been obviously local and had been working with other Alkies. When she resigned, she made a beeline for Dr. Thiebaud and was immediately a patient of his until he went on vacation in mid-July.

58:40

Bobbie So she was with him then for about five weeks. But it's very likely that she actually had a previous relationship with Dr. Thiebaud for a number, for a couple of years anyway, prior to probably as early as 1946. Because she was suffering from exhaustion and some personal problems as well. But there's no specific mention of Dr.

58:59

Bobbie Thiebaud until later on. But she was definitely a regular patient of Dr. Thiebaud for quite a while after she resigned from her job at the GSO. Thank you, brother. Thank you for the question, Mark.

59:10

Bobbie And next is Lorraine. You can unmute and ask your question. Yeah, thanks very much, Gary. Really appreciate your presentation. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your sources, not the ones that were credited so much.

59:23

Bobbie But I know that you were in touch with Bobby's family. And you mentioned letters that you received from a cash in Vermont. Is that the same, the family? I just wondered about the more personal, not the published sources, but the more personal materials you've had access to. Thank you.

59:40

Moderator In the past, I've provided sources as part of this presentation. But again, I had trouble keeping it within 70 minutes as it is. So I chopped that out to try to save time. But in March of 2020, just as New York was shutting down, obviously, I was not able to go to the GSO anymore to expand the collection of the thousand letters that I had actually had dictated into a recording device, come back here and then transcribe. That's what you have to do.

60:07

Bobbie Since you can't copy anything at the GSO, you can't photograph anything. You can take notes or you can dictate. And so the letters that I have from the GSO are all transcribed. But then I was thinking I was running out of material through some good fortune in May of 2020. I was searching through the 1930 census and not finding anything.

60:27

Moderator But I went after a very common misspelling of the last name Berger. Because I didn't know at that time that Berger was a maiden name or was it a married name. And I couldn't find B-U-R-G-E-R, but I did find B-E-R-G-E-R. That was her name misspelled. That gave me the clue that she actually had two daughters.

60:46

Bobbie Both daughters had died by then, but it was pretty easy to find their obituaries, which clues me in that they had both daughters had three children. Then I got lucky over Facebook. And Facebook, I was able to contact a person from Gloria's daughter and also Sybil's daughter. And from there, I was able to make a contact. I gained the support of the six grandchildren.

61:08

Moderator Then they announced that it was Robert who was still alive. One of Bobby's son-in-laws who was sitting on a load of paper, as many as 800 pages. And I paid some, I don't know how much, 380 bucks or something for somebody to sit at Kinko's for a long time and send me everything they had. That's where the letters came from that you saw written by Bill to Bobby. And that's the treasure chest.

61:33

Moderator That's the dream diary. And there's a whole lot more of her personal life that happens to be in the book that I just don't have time to pursue. She tested near a genius. She's one smart cookie. In addition, there's a lot of personal information, again, that I just don't have time for.

61:51

Bobbie Does that answer your question? Okay. Thank you for the question, Lorraine. And I did just share a link to where you can find the book on Amazon. If you want to dig deeper and learn more about Bobby, you can find that book and dig in.

62:06

Bobbie And one more question is from Charlie. You can unmute. Thank you, Gary. I attended the last presentation and this one was quite different, actually. Am I understanding correctly?

62:15

Bobbie Is there some information that you presented this evening is since the book that you have written or is all this material that you presented this evening in the book? Oh, most everything is in the book. There are some exceptions. Obviously, the grave site, we didn't know anything about that at all. But most everything is in the book.

62:35

Bobbie But what's different is I'm continuing to have a variety of experiences of trying to find out more about Bobby, but more about us. And I'm giving you some possible future events that I hope we'll be able to find out more in the future. Let me put it to you this way. Back in 2015, I was an archivist for this area 16, the state of Georgia. And, you know, with the Atlanta International being here, as the archivist, I was asked to do the history of Georgia AA.

63:03

Bobbie So I went down to where our archives are located in Macon, Georgia. And what did I find? I found a notebook, 380 pages. And what it was, is our delegate in 1993, asked for all of the letters that originated in Georgia and the corresponding responses that came out of the GSO. So that's 1993.

63:20

Bobbie I got that notebook. And the first thing I did when I got the notebook, I made a catalog of its contents. And then I made sure I put it into Excel so I could sort it into a chronological sequence. And what happened? I came across this name, Margaret Berger.

63:37

Bobbie I, like most everybody else, had never heard of her. But so much of her correspondence came from her that this sort of piqued my curiosity. I ended up doing the presentation, but I ended up continuing to pursue where, who was this person? Okay. and you know, by 2019, I decided that there was enough here, I had written books previously, there was enough here for a story.

63:58

Bobbie But where I'm going after this, if you, whatever area that you were in today, if you were asked for such a notebook to be created, you would be denied. Why? Because the copyright policy has evolved since then. And it is prohibited for anyone at the GSO to provide you a copy of a letter or a picture of it. And why?

64:18

Moderator Again, it has to do with they've taken action to protect themselves from possible litigation due to the fact that a letter stays in the possession of the person who wrote it, or 70 years after the death, it's still under copyright. So under that basis, Bill's stuff would be at minimum under copyright until 2041. Anything that Bobby wrote, she died in 1953, so it would be 2023. So her stuff would be out of copyright. But you can see that times have changed, and it's much more difficult to get a hold of information at the GSO, which was one, which was very easy to do.

64:52

Bobbie Now it's very difficult to do. You need proper permissions, and so on. And I needed to get permission to start with, to do the research, to go there, and then I had to have a permission to publish, which is, you know, it comes from the Office of Property Management. Did you know that GSO has such an office? Okay, they do.

65:12

Moderator And I had to get permission to publish, and so forth. I'm going a long way, you know, to tell you that times have changed. But in many regards, it's an unfortunate reality that we, as a fellowship, as a conference, are walled off from our very own history, and no one, until the conference has some voice in this matter, nothing will change. But it is a conference issue, and but someday it, believe me, you know, forgive me for saying this, but there are a lot of people out there in AA land. What is AA history having to do with staying sober?

65:46

Bobbie Okay, maybe I've gone over, Bart, but I hope I answered your question. Yes, you have. And one more question, as far as, have you been contacted by a work, a work anonymous group, workaholics? I mean, it sounds like Bobby would be the patron saint for workaholics. Well, it's again, I, it's a slide, it's a slide I cut out of this presentation.

66:07

Moderator There's a, she was in a, one of the last things she did while I was employed was to be in, it was in the South, Northeast Regional Conference, in which it's very possible, Bill was making a presentation at that conference, and then he, there was a group of psych, he spoke in front of a number of doctors and psychiatrists, either in Montreal or Toronto, I can't remember which, and that's where Bobby could have, if she attended that, she could have been exposed to work, workaholics synonymous, which was a joke that was in a Toronto newspaper, but I believe the term workaholic dates from 1947, and if she ever saw it, it very well may have been part of her demise. Thank you. Thank you, Charlie, and our next question is from Chili Charlie. You can unmute. Thanks, Tim, and thank you, Gary, awesome presentation as always, and I have three questions, hopefully short.

66:58

Moderator The first one, it might be stupid, but is the MAC that her and Bill 12-step, the same MAC that she married or was dating? No, that was in sobriety in 1940, and MAC sort of kicked around AA until at least early 1942, but it doesn't look like he ever got sober for any length of time, and Dick Stanley has a letter that was written to Bobby where he is bitterly criticizing MAC and basically saying good riddance to good rubbish is so many, but again, Bobby's second marriage ended at the end of 1936. Their first marriage ended in 1929, and that was 1940, and so she did not remarry. Okay, and then the movie credits, what was the first movie? Oh, boy, it's the Kroger bad movie, you know, and if John's here, he'd probably know that before I would.

67:43

Moderator I'd have to, honest to goodness, I'd have to go back and look at the slide. Yeah, it was on your slide, but you went so fast, I didn't want to forget it. It's all right, it's not that big a deal, and then my last question is, in the couple years since you published your book, is there any changes that you would have, having learned more, any changes that you would make? That's a great question. You know, my difficulty at times is remembering what I wrote versus what I talk about today, you know, in many regards.

68:17

Moderator Well, you know, things like knowing when she was married. I have additional pictures of her that have been collected that weren't available for the book and so forth, but the meat and potatoes, I'm much more inclined to give more interpretation of the information these days because I'm becoming more convinced of certain themes that I didn't have when I wrote it. So, I do believe if I were to sit down and do a second edition or so forth, I would add things that have occurred to me now over time, and in particular, it's the evolution of that. We really, again, Bill's depressed, and Bobby has written, she was found, she and Bill, I think there's a direct quote in the Thousand Letters, she and Bill were drunk, coast to coast. Who accused them of being drunk, coast to coast?

69:04

Bobbie I don't know. Okay, well, why, what were, you know, Bill was always prone to depression, again, in his quote of 1943 to 1955 is ironclad in his own admission of the 8 to 12 years. That's just his own very own words. Now, of course, he had great productive periods, and Mike Fitzpatrick always wants to make clear that despite the deep depressions, he would have tremendous prolific writing that has helped shape Alcoholics Anonymous into what it is, but we don't have a picture of the verbal knives that were being thrown at him. Gotcha.

69:34

Bobbie Thank you so much. Okay, well, I'll just say, you know, from the research I was doing, we are not nice people without traditions, and I'm convinced beyond a doubt, we wouldn't exist without them. We're not nice with them. Thank you so much for the question, Charlie, and thank you, everyone, for all of your questions, and thank you again, Gary, for a great presentation, and now I will allow everyone to unmute and thank Gary.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

History Workshop: Bobbie B. & Gary N.

History Workshop: Bobbie B. & Gary N.

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