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[00:00:02.320 – 00:00:03.220] Good evening, everyone. [00:00:03.220 – 00:00:05.300] My name is David, and I'm alcoholic. [00:00:05.300 – 00:00:06.600] Hi, David. [00:00:06.600 – 00:00:12.420] I'd like to welcome you to this open AA recovery workshop with Q&A, and along with Stuart. [00:00:12.420 – 00:00:13.740] Hello, everybody. [00:00:13.740 – 00:00:14.320] I'm Stuart. [00:00:14.320 – 00:00:15.120] I'm alcoholic.

[00:00:15.120 – 00:00:16.040] Nice to see you. [00:00:16.040 – 00:00:17.620] See you later for the Q&A. [00:00:17.620 – 00:00:20.040] We will be serving as your co-hosts. [00:00:20.040 – 00:00:29.200] This is one of a series of workshops which has been inspired by recoveryspeakers.com, and it's hosted by the Saturday night AA group in Camberwell, London, SE5. [00:00:29.200 – 00:00:32.360] And we are in the physical space on Saturday evening. [00:00:32.360 – 00:00:42.400] In keeping with AA traditions, in particular tradition five, each AA group, as we know, has but one primary purpose, and that's to carry its message to the alcoholics who are still [00:00:42.400 – 00:00:44.720] suffering from alcoholism.

[00:00:44.720 – 00:00:55.440] The main purpose of these workshops is to introduce and/or develop ideas and concepts, and hopefully to encourage participants to do some further investigation on their own. [00:00:55.440 – 00:01:01.310] Now, just before we go into another section I just want to mention what the title of this meet, this, this, uh, meeting we have tonight. [00:01:01.310 – 00:01:07.560] I want to bring to your attention, I'm sure you've seen it by now, this is, uh, gonna be a dialogue with Jay S. and Ward B. [00:01:07.560 – 00:01:07.940] E.. [00:01:07.940 – 00:01:18.120] Now, Ward was the former chairman of the board of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the author of the 12 Steps to Religious-less Spirituality: The Power of Spirituality [00:01:18.120 – 00:01:19.660] With or Without G.. [00:01:19.660 – 00:01:21.840] And I'm just gonna read a section from that.

[00:01:21.840 – 00:01:28.120] It says, "The 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous provides a spiritual program dramatically distinct from religion. [00:01:28.120 – 00:01:32.960] 12-step spirituality is based on experience, not doctrine. [00:01:32.960 – 00:01:37.000] It is pragmatic, focusing on what works and not on theory. [00:01:37.000 – 00:01:44.100] It is centered in a community that is inclusive, welcoming, welcoming all who desire to stop drinking. [00:01:44.100 – 00:01:54.140] It seeks rigorous honesty, even when that honesty involves painful questioning, and it centers upon service to the still suffering alcoholic." And I'm [00:01:54.140 – 00:01:56.340] really excited to hear this tonight. [00:01:56.340 – 00:01:59.360] Uh, I want to hear this tonight.

[00:01:59.360 – 00:01:59.430] Yeah. [00:01:59.430 – 00:02:00.300] Okay, here we go. [00:02:00.300 – 00:02:05.940] So the common thread throughout has been the quote from the, all our workshops since we set up on Zoom has been a common thread. [00:02:05.940 – 00:02:16.160] Throughout has been a quote from step 10 in the basic text, which as we know st- says, "We have entered the world of the spirit, and our next function is to grow in understanding and effectiveness." [00:02:16.160 – 00:02:21.800] And I definitely grown a lot in the last two years from this, all these wonderful presentations we've had. [00:02:21.800 – 00:02:29.620] The audio of tonight's presentation is being recorded, and we're gonna pass it over to Mike K. at recoveryspeakers.com. [00:02:29.620 – 00:02:34.180] And just like to give a thanks to Mike and all those, Mike F. and Tim F. over there.

[00:02:34.180 – 00:02:43.600] We'd like to point out that what's shared at these workshop meetings obviously represents the experience, the strength and the hope of their members, and not, not to be taken to represent the fellowship of the whole. [00:02:43.600 – 00:02:52.720] The 12 step proven program of recovery can be found in our basic textbook titled Alcoholics Anonymous, which we fondly call the big book. [00:02:52.720 – 00:02:56.580] Now, I'm gonna put up on the screen if you'd like to join in. [00:02:56.580 – 00:02:58.940] You don't have to, but it's, it's not compulsory. [00:02:58.940 – 00:03:00.800] There's nothing compulsory here, really. [00:03:00.800 – 00:03:02.000] Uh, so we're gonna, if you're… [00:03:02.000 – 00:03:06.080] If you'd like to unmute yourself, we're gonna say this version of the Serenity P..

[00:03:06.080 – 00:03:09.460] And we're using God obviously, as you understand it. [00:03:09.460 – 00:03:09.960] So G.- God. [00:03:09.960 – 00:03:12.760] Please- Please … [00:03:12.760 – 00:03:16.490] set aside- Set aside everything I think I have … [00:03:16.490 – 00:03:18.150] every thing I have Thank you in advance … [00:03:18.150 – 00:03:20.990] open my mind to a new experience. [00:03:20.990 – 00:03:21.260] To a new experience.

[00:03:21.260 – 00:03:22.590] Amen. [00:03:22.590 – 00:03:22.740] Amen. [00:03:22.740 – 00:03:24.000] Just for today. [00:03:24.000 – 00:03:24.540] Thanks, God. [00:03:24.540 – 00:03:26.260] Thank you very much. [00:03:26.260 – 00:03:30.540] And what we're going to have now is just a few moments silence to gather our thoughts and obviously reflect on why we're here. [00:03:30.540 – 00:03:36.700] Think of those alcoholics who are still suffering from alcoholic torture, and also their family members.

[00:03:36.700 – 00:03:46.740] Thank you, everyone. [00:03:46.740 – 00:03:49.100] I'm sure we're all in the language of the heart now. [00:03:49.100 – 00:03:54.300] And with that, it's always a pleasure, as always with Jay S. is here, and it's always wonderful to turn the meeting over to Jay. [00:03:54.300 – 00:03:56.500] You're all yours, Jay. [00:03:56.500 – 00:03:59.540] Well, thank you, David, and thank you, Stuart. [00:03:59.540 – 00:04:07.360] It's lovely to see everybody again, and this week you get what you really came for last week, so it's a wonderful thing. [00:04:07.360 – 00:04:17.420] Um, you know, I, uh, I'm always humbled by the service that has been

[00:04:17.420 – 00:04:20.800] done for Alcoholics Anonymous by non-alcoholics. [00:04:20.800 – 00:04:30.820] And, uh, when my, uh, friend, uh, Bill S. and I got together and, and started the, the symposium on [00:04:30.820 – 00:04:41.060] AA history, one of the features that we had in there was an interview where we could have somebody, you know, a variety of people come and talk about their experience [00:04:41.060 – 00:04:42.320] with Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:04:42.320 – 00:04:52.340] And, and, uh, we were really lucky to get Ward and his, his, uh, fabulous wife, Jenny, to come out to Sedona, and we had a, had a marvelous, marvelous [00:04:52.340 – 00:04:52.640] time. [00:04:52.640 – 00:05:02.640] And, uh, so, uh, I, I guess it was probably 20 years ago when I first heard Ward at a, a regional forum

[00:05:02.640 – 00:05:09.060] in, uh, in, uh, the Val- San F. Valley in, in Los Angeles. [00:05:09.060 – 00:05:12.200] And, uh, and, uh, I was captivated. [00:05:12.200 – 00:05:14.920] And, uh, he's got… [00:05:14.920 – 00:05:20.430] He's has a strange work history and, and I was, uh, I, uh, I was, uh, always fa- [00:05:21.680 – 00:05:24.040] fondly, uh, fondly attracted to that. [00:05:24.040 – 00:05:34.280] So I'd just like to introduce you to my friend, uh, Ward E., and, um, tell you that if you haven't bought the book yet, I'm gonna shamelessly say that [00:05:34.280 – 00:05:44.300] it will not only inform you, but if you run across people that are concerned about

[00:05:44.300 – 00:05:54.319] Alcoholics Anonymous as being some kind of a threat to their, uh, the religion of origin that they were brought to or their family member that's coming [00:05:54.320 – 00:06:00.840] to recovery is brought to, it's just a marvelously, uh, consoling and informative work. [00:06:00.840 – 00:06:04.160] And, uh, so, uh, Ward, welcome to the group. [00:06:04.160 – 00:06:05.200] Thank you. [00:06:05.200 – 00:06:15.360] And, uh, so the first question of course would be, how did a nice guy like you end up in a Zoom like this with people [00:06:15.360 – 00:06:16.340] like us? [00:06:16.340 – 00:06:19.800] Great fortune.

[00:06:19.800 – 00:06:23.020] Uh, but I'll be a little more detailed. [00:06:23.020 – 00:06:27.700] I am, I think most of you must know, I am an Episcopal priest. [00:06:27.700 – 00:06:37.760] I served some 32, 33 years as a parish pastor, and then was 10 years as the dean and president [00:06:37.760 – 00:06:40.680] of General S. in New York City. [00:06:40.680 – 00:06:48.280] Um, I got involved with you because I was ignorant. [00:06:48.280 – 00:06:51.340] I love that opening prayer, by the way. [00:06:51.340 – 00:06:56.500] Uh, boy, do we need to recognize what we don't know.

[00:06:56.500 – 00:06:59.480] We'll, I may talk more about that 'cause that's just one of my themes. [00:06:59.480 – 00:07:07.000] But, but I'd moved to a new, new parish, new congregation in Louisville, Kentucky, and I had… [00:07:07.000 – 00:07:13.500] It was in the first month I was there that one of the parishioners called me up and said, "I need you to go see my husband. [00:07:13.500 – 00:07:17.660] He's in jail." And I sort of… [00:07:17.660 – 00:07:27.320] He said, "He got paid Friday night, went to a bar, spent his entire paycheck, and got in a fight, and now he's in jail, and I'm not speaking to him. [00:07:27.320 – 00:07:33.360] You need to go talk to him." Well, I didn't have a clue what I was gonna do or what to say or anything else. [00:07:33.360 – 00:07:34.500] I did went down.

[00:07:34.500 – 00:07:35.340] He got out of… [00:07:35.340 – 00:07:43.340] He got on, got bail and got out, and that was sort of the end of the thing, but it made me realize I don't know beans about this illness. [00:07:43.340 – 00:07:44.990] Don't know anything. [00:07:44.990 – 00:07:53.160] And so I began to study where can I find out, and I decided the place I could find out best was with the experts, and started attending open AA meetings. [00:07:53.160 – 00:07:58.620] And, and that was the beginning, and for about four or five years I did that. [00:07:58.620 – 00:08:08.800] And then one day, Willie, who was a member of the parish, had seven years sobriety, walked into my office, and he said, "Ward, you're the spiritual expert, right?" [00:08:08.800 – 00:08:14.040] And I, uh, I don't think I answered that.

[00:08:14.040 – 00:08:15.440] I think he went on. [00:08:15.440 – 00:08:20.840] He said, "I'm out of touch with God, and the last time I was out of touch with my higher power I drank. [00:08:20.840 – 00:08:22.600] If I drink again, I may die. [00:08:22.600 – 00:08:29.680] I need you to put me back in touch with God." Well, I had enough sense at least to know I couldn't do that either. [00:08:29.680 – 00:08:34.620] Um, that, that you, you can't just make those things happen. [00:08:34.620 – 00:08:44.460] And we talked and we talked again later next that week, and, and then we decided what we needed to do was to get a group of men, it turned out to be men, we didn't say… [00:08:44.460 – 00:08:55.060] A group of people who had at least five years sobriety, who were asking questions about their spirituality, and who wanted to kind of explore that specifically.

[00:08:55.060 – 00:09:02.160] So we met every Tuesday afternoon, uh, for the next five years until I moved, and that group changed my life. [00:09:02.160 – 00:09:04.260] Uh, it's just… [00:09:04.260 – 00:09:06.520] I always considered Willie my first sponsor. [00:09:06.520 – 00:09:10.060] Uh, that's where I learned the steps. [00:09:10.060 – 00:09:12.580] That's where I began to work the steps. [00:09:12.580 – 00:09:14.880] And, and, uh, that's… [00:09:14.880 – 00:09:25.060] The reason I'm still here is 'cause the steps are the most wonderful spiritual program there is, and it, it brings incredible amount

[00:09:25.060 – 00:09:31.600] of, of, uh, growth and maturity, and it just keeps on, keeps on tugging us, you know? [00:09:31.600 – 00:09:39.420] I, I, I've learned things in the last couple of weeks from this, from meetings I go to and, and conferences. [00:09:39.420 – 00:09:42.520] So it's just I've, I've been with you ever since. [00:09:42.520 – 00:09:52.480] Uh, I think maybe another piece of that puzzle though, uh, Jay, is, uh, my own personal life. [00:09:52.480 – 00:10:03.320] I think, I think there was a meeting of, of the spirituality of this, of AA, 'cause it is really bigger than just the steps, with [00:10:03.320 – 00:10:06.260] my own personal challenges. [00:10:06.260 – 00:10:09.360] Uh, I had terrible teenage years.

[00:10:09.360 – 00:10:16.060] Uh, I thought a lot about su- I, I was a super achiever, and that's a really bad thing to be I've discovered. [00:10:16.060 – 00:10:19.740] Uh, and I was a practically perfect teenager. [00:10:19.740 – 00:10:23.160] Uh, I did all sorts of good things. [00:10:23.160 – 00:10:25.720] I was a all county basketball. [00:10:25.720 – 00:10:27.520] I was all A student. [00:10:27.520 – 00:10:31.290] I had a paper route, raised enough money to pay my first year of college. [00:10:31.290 – 00:10:32.810] Of course, college was a lot cheaper then.

[00:10:32.810 – 00:10:40.850] Uh, and, uh, and I hated myself and I thought I was absolutely worthless, and I spent a lot of ti- [00:10:41.018 – 00:10:43.008] I'm contemplating suicide. [00:10:43.008 – 00:10:53.168] Uh, I really was salvaged by the church, particularly church camp, where nobody [00:10:53.168 – 00:10:57.048] knew I was a super achiever, nobody knew I was a practically perfect teenager. [00:10:57.048 – 00:10:58.908] They thought I was just a guy. [00:10:58.908 – 00:11:03.508] And, and I was welcomed and loved, and I learned that I didn't have to earn love. [00:11:03.508 – 00:11:04.868] I, I…

[00:11:04.868 – 00:11:15.068] today I re- recognize what I had done was to substitute, uh, achievement for love, and nobody could love me 'cause I wouldn't let them, and I was trying to [00:11:15.068 – 00:11:18.048] save myself by being an achiever. [00:11:18.048 – 00:11:21.168] Um, and it was a bondage I couldn't get out of. [00:11:21.168 – 00:11:31.128] The, the image I had was I was on a pedestal, and everybody below was, it was clapping, and I couldn't step off of that pedestal 'cause that would just be death. [00:11:31.128 – 00:11:41.248] Church camp, I wasn't on the pedestal, and I learned that God loved me even though I couldn't love myself, and that all I really had to do was to accept that [00:11:41.248 – 00:11:44.028] love, and that's why I ended up going to seminary. [00:11:44.028 – 00:11:46.808] Uh, but you can see a…

[00:11:46.808 – 00:11:56.848] trust you can see that kind of bondage to self, that kind of, uh, inability to let go and, and surrender, all [00:11:56.848 – 00:12:01.028] of those pieces just fit the steps and fit the spirituality of this program. [00:12:01.028 – 00:12:10.868] So while I had come accepting that I was lovable, it was a long time before I really became operative there. [00:12:10.868 – 00:12:16.928] Oh, that's fabulous. [00:12:16.928 – 00:12:17.828] Thank you, my friend. [00:12:17.828 – 00:12:28.148] Um, could you talk a little bit about how you got involved with, uh, uh, AA [00:12:28.148 – 00:12:29.688] as an organization?

[00:12:29.688 – 00:12:30.748] Ah. [00:12:30.748 – 00:12:32.378] So that's… [00:12:32.378 – 00:12:42.948] my life gen- well, I believe there are two critical pieces [00:12:42.948 – 00:12:43.388] for life. [00:12:43.388 – 00:12:48.748] One is to keep your eyes open, and the other is to ask for help. [00:12:48.748 – 00:12:55.948] Um, and that's sort of, that's how I got into AA. [00:12:55.948 – 00:13:01.348] I discovered I needed help, and I, and that seemed a good way to get there.

[00:13:01.348 – 00:13:11.388] Um, I, uh, when I moved from Louisville, I was in Buffalo, New York for 13 years. [00:13:11.388 – 00:13:12.008] Loved it. [00:13:12.008 – 00:13:14.908] Loved s- came to love snow. [00:13:14.908 – 00:13:17.448] And if you don't love snow in Buffalo, you don't stay in Buffalo. [00:13:17.448 – 00:13:25.248] Uh, and, uh, the, um, so there I continued to… [00:13:25.248 – 00:13:26.548] I, I tried to get a… [00:13:26.548 – 00:13:34.278] you know, you get some gift, like that group, and you wanna keep it going, and I tried to reorganize it.

[00:13:34.278 – 00:13:45.248] I think I organized three different 11-step groups trying to get my own group going again, and then they took off on their own and were actually AA groups that were doing really good work. [00:13:45.248 – 00:13:47.548] Um, so I stayed in touch. [00:13:47.548 – 00:13:57.628] Then when I got to general seminary, I was interviewing for a s- a CF- position for a CFO, and one of the candidates was Michael, [00:13:57.628 – 00:13:59.287] who, uh… [00:13:59.287 – 00:14:09.288] w- uh, one of my questions I, I've learned to ask is, "Tell me about your drinking." And he sort of said, "Well, why [00:14:09.288 – 00:14:19.328] would you ask that?" And I said, "There were a couple of little things I've noticed in our interview that tell me that you have had some drinking." And he said, "Yes, I've got 20-something…" I don't remember [00:14:19.328 – 00:14:28.628] the number of years, "20, 22 years sobriety." And shared with me a little bit of his story, and he said, "I'm still curious why you would go after that.

[00:14:28.628 – 00:14:39.238] How would you even know, notice those things?" And that was when I shared with him what I just shared with you, the story of, of, uh, uh, [00:14:39.238 – 00:14:46.608] my getting involved with, through Willy, with this small group of, of members of AA to talk about our spiritual lives together. [00:14:46.608 – 00:14:49.728] Uh, and that's what I'm still doing with AA. [00:14:49.728 – 00:14:56.688] I'm just trying for us to explore spirituality, 'cause it's so powerful, uh, and there's so much we can all learn. [00:14:56.688 – 00:15:00.238] Uh, I'm, I still consider myself a learner. [00:15:00.238 – 00:15:03.068] Anyway, Michael didn't take the job. [00:15:03.068 – 00:15:13.108] He took it for about 24 hours and then called me back up and said his partner says, "I can't take this job." Uh, and, uh, but about six weeks later he called me up and said,

[00:15:13.108 – 00:15:16.968] "There's a position open for a trustee with the general service board. [00:15:16.968 – 00:15:20.088] Would you be interested?" And I said, "Oh, okay. [00:15:20.088 – 00:15:24.228] That sounds very interesting." And that's how I got involved at that level. [00:15:24.228 – 00:15:29.668] And believe me, when you get involved, your first involvement with the structure of AA is as a trustee. [00:15:29.668 – 00:15:31.848] You are a deer in headlights. [00:15:31.848 – 00:15:34.478] Yes. [00:15:34.478 – 00:15:34.728] Yeah.

[00:15:34.728 – 00:15:36.268] Different structure. [00:15:36.268 – 00:15:37.988] It is such a different structure. [00:15:37.988 – 00:15:44.788] And I think has, again, just like the spirituality, I think the structure has a great deal to offer the rest of us. [00:15:44.788 – 00:15:46.388] Mm-hmm. [00:15:46.388 – 00:15:47.688] AA or non-AA. [00:15:47.688 – 00:15:51.168] Thank you so much, my friend. [00:15:51.168 – 00:15:58.948] So now I think everybody understands how well-qualified my friend is to be hanging out with us.

[00:15:58.948 – 00:16:01.338] So I'd like to now kind of switch gears- [00:16:01.816 – 00:16:08.626] And go to this, uh, this wonderful compendium of insights that you've been able to provide for us. [00:16:08.626 – 00:16:18.675] And, uh, the, uh, the first thing I'd like to ask you is how would, how would you define spirituality? [00:16:18.675 – 00:16:22.856] Ah, that's a softball. [00:16:22.856 – 00:16:31.156] Uh, the, spirituality is how we put together in our lives three major pieces. [00:16:31.156 – 00:16:39.036] One is what we perceive, the second is how we feel about what we are perceiving, and the third are the choices we make. [00:16:39.036 – 00:16:49.076] And each of these things we do, everybody does, spirituality is not something special that's, that's different.

[00:16:49.076 – 00:16:51.356] Spirituality is something that everyone has. [00:16:51.356 – 00:16:55.876] Uh, one of the analogies I like is that spirituality is like health. [00:16:55.876 – 00:16:57.156] Everybody's got health. [00:16:57.156 – 00:17:01.036] Sometimes people are healthy and it's good, and some people have poor health. [00:17:01.036 – 00:17:03.496] Spirituality is pretty much the same. [00:17:03.496 – 00:17:13.996] Sometimes there's a spirituality that's creative and makes a person more productive and more open and more, more able to relate, and there are spiritualities that isolate and [00:17:13.996 – 00:17:16.736] bring anger and, and resentment.

[00:17:16.736 – 00:17:19.616] But spirituality is about looking at… [00:17:19.616 – 00:17:24.876] You know, we all have biases, and I think we- Mm … [00:17:24.876 – 00:17:26.096] just gotta start with that. [00:17:26.096 – 00:17:27.516] Everybody has a bias. [00:17:27.516 – 00:17:30.916] And it, I don't think we ever get rid of our biases. [00:17:30.916 – 00:17:32.496] They're, they're gonna be there. [00:17:32.496 – 00:17:38.716] Um, the, the, uh, uh…

[00:17:38.716 – 00:17:44.836] And so what we perceive is filtered by our bias. [00:17:44.836 – 00:17:51.416] Our brain is, is not a computer that just receives things without interpreting. [00:17:51.416 – 00:17:52.856] It's automatically interpreting. [00:17:52.856 – 00:18:02.976] Um, the, uh, now I'm blanking on the name, my age is showing, but the basketball player who was a Harvard graduate, [00:18:02.976 – 00:18:04.176] uh, th- I just love this. [00:18:04.176 – 00:18:14.196] Graduated from Harvard, uh, Asian A., s- six feet one. [00:18:14.196 – 00:18:18.036] Would you think he's a great basketball player?

[00:18:18.036 – 00:18:22.916] Well, it happens he is, and he was a all-star. [00:18:22.916 – 00:18:32.976] But, b- the bi- he w- he had a har- he had, he had bui- gone from the University of, uh, gone from L- LA, where he had been for [00:18:32.976 – 00:18:36.256] four straight years the outstanding basketball, high school basketball player. [00:18:36.256 – 00:18:44.356] Didn't get a scholarship, went to Harvard, where for three straight years he was the outstanding Ivy L. player, and not a single team drafted him. [00:18:44.356 – 00:18:54.896] I mean, after all, what do Asian, African A.- Asian, uh, Harvard graduates [00:18:54.896 – 00:18:56.056] know about basketball? [00:18:56.056 – 00:19:00.576] Uh, that's our, the way we bias things.

[00:19:00.576 – 00:19:01.756] We filter them, we… [00:19:01.756 – 00:19:11.946] Uh, oh, another wonderful bias is there, there was a, a, a study done about people, [00:19:11.946 – 00:19:14.036] how, how much they contribute to a team. [00:19:14.036 – 00:19:24.556] So they took up a group of MBAs and they asked them to evaluate what their, what the percentage of their con- of their contribution [00:19:24.556 – 00:19:27.016] to the effort of the team was. [00:19:27.016 – 00:19:37.196] So then when you took all of the team members, and each had e- estimated, "I may, you know, I contribute 30%," or, "I contribute 40% of what's done," or, "I contribute [00:19:37.196 – 00:19:39.776] 80% of what's…" Whatever they contribute.

[00:19:39.776 – 00:19:49.776] So when you take the members of the team, it adds up to 140% because they're all biased towards seeing themselves contributing [00:19:49.776 – 00:19:53.116] more than the others do. [00:19:53.116 – 00:20:01.356] So, uh, anyway, there are lots of biases and, and I spend maybe too much time in the book on that, but it, it, it fascinates me how little we know. [00:20:01.356 – 00:20:02.416] Mm. [00:20:02.416 – 00:20:06.676] Uh, the, uh, uh… [00:20:06.676 – 00:20:17.376] My wife and I spend a little time talking about how much we contribute to the team at home, and we came up to about 120% [00:20:17.376 – 00:20:18.856] when we each- Yeah, …

[00:20:18.856 – 00:20:19.576] contributed 60%. [00:20:19.576 – 00:20:23.736] Uh, the, um, uh… [00:20:23.736 – 00:20:34.196] So that's our perception, and it's, and it's very subjective and, and it's filtered through our biases, it's filtered through our experiences. [00:20:34.196 – 00:20:42.776] Uh, story in the book, excuse me for doing this, but two men are walking through Times S., one of them suddenly hears a cricket. [00:20:42.776 – 00:20:47.876] He's from, he's from Arkansas, and he hears a cricket in the middle of Times S.. [00:20:47.876 – 00:20:49.696] And his friend says, "You can't hear a cricket. [00:20:49.696 – 00:20:51.166] There's no crickets in Times S..

[00:20:51.166 – 00:20:58.296] And by the way, you couldn't hear it with all the traffic and noise going on." He walks over to a planter, pulls the leaves around, and there's a cricket. [00:20:58.296 – 00:21:00.876] And the man says, "You are amazing. [00:21:00.876 – 00:21:03.156] Your ears must be incredible." He says, "No, no, no. [00:21:03.156 – 00:21:09.476] We all hear what we've been trained to hear." And he, and the, his friend looked at him kind of strangely. [00:21:09.476 – 00:21:18.056] And so he pulled, reached in his pocket and pulled out some change, dropped it on the sidewalk, and about a half a dozen people stopped and looked. [00:21:18.056 – 00:21:21.686] We hear what we've sort of been trained- [00:21:21.904 – 00:21:22.384] into here.

[00:21:22.384 – 00:21:27.044] Uh, that's, that's our perception. [00:21:27.044 – 00:21:29.264] It's not, it's very subjective. [00:21:29.264 – 00:21:31.144] Then there are our choices. [00:21:31.144 – 00:21:41.164] I'm sorry, then there are our feelings, and the, the example I like to use here is what's the difference between somebody that's uptight and somebody [00:21:41.164 – 00:21:42.744] that's, that's laid back? [00:21:42.744 – 00:21:48.344] I'm sorry, between somebody that's laid back and somebody that's lazy. [00:21:48.344 – 00:21:51.384] What's the difference between somebody that's lazy and somebody that's laid back?

[00:21:51.384 – 00:21:53.824] How I feel about them is the difference. [00:21:53.824 – 00:21:56.764] If I like them, they're, they're laid back. [00:21:56.764 – 00:21:59.384] If I don't like them, they're lazy. [00:21:59.384 – 00:22:09.444] So we, we get, uh, how we feel affects how we, w- what we perceive [00:22:09.444 – 00:22:11.424] and how we perceive it and how we're gonna do it. [00:22:11.424 – 00:22:12.764] And then there are our choices. [00:22:12.764 – 00:22:22.924] Um, and choices are really, uh, challenging, but they come out of our reaction, our feelings to

[00:22:22.924 – 00:22:31.224] the perceptions, and then the, when after we make the choices, uh, those, those then will affect our… [00:22:31.224 – 00:22:41.254] So it's, it's constantly interacting, constantly, um, evolving, uh, spirituality, [00:22:41.254 – 00:22:45.484] and it's, and it really is not particularly related to religion. [00:22:45.484 – 00:22:51.804] We can push that one some more if you want to, but spirituality is something every human being has. [00:22:51.804 – 00:22:55.244] Every human being has perceptions, what they're seeing. [00:22:55.244 – 00:22:59.384] Every human being has feelings about those perceptions. [00:22:59.384 – 00:23:09.384] Every human being makes choices that will affect them and others, and, and each time, each time we make a choice, each time we

[00:23:09.384 – 00:23:13.564] think about what we're seeing, we're evolving that spirituality. [00:23:13.564 – 00:23:24.494] And, and the hope is, the hope is, and the goal, like, for me, is how do we find a spirituality that keeps us on track to becoming more open, m- [00:23:24.494 – 00:23:34.504] more, uh, connected to others, more able to help others, more able to serve our, our, our culture, our s- local society? [00:23:34.504 – 00:23:40.044] How do we, how do we have a culture that, how do we have a spirituality that keeps us growing in those ways? [00:23:40.044 – 00:23:41.104] That's where I am. [00:23:41.104 – 00:23:41.664] Thank you. [00:23:41.664 – 00:23:47.364] Thanks, uh, Ward.

[00:23:47.364 – 00:23:57.404] Now, since we've talked about spirituality, could you please then talk a little bit about the to- pow- the title of the book [00:23:57.404 – 00:24:00.924] and how you came with- The, the spirituality … [00:24:00.924 – 00:24:01.714] that title? [00:24:01.714 – 00:24:11.904] Well, first of all, Dietrich B., the martyr, the German theologian who was killed by Hitler for his involvement in the plot to [00:24:11.904 – 00:24:17.204] kill Hitler, uh, and he wrote letters and papers from prison. [00:24:17.204 – 00:24:27.224] Uh, I've been a student of Hi- I have studied him for y- for years and years, since before seminary, really, [00:24:27.224 – 00:24:31.584] and part of what he calls for is religion as Christianity.

[00:24:31.584 – 00:24:34.564] So, um, the title is sort of stolen. [00:24:34.564 – 00:24:44.604] But he saw in the middle of Ger- of the crisis in Germany, the German church was silent, and he felt that it was [00:24:44.604 – 00:24:54.664] so tied to its culture, so tied to property, so tied to needing money, so tied to all of those things that keep us, keep a institution running, that [00:24:54.664 – 00:25:04.704] it could not speak, uh, against the horrors that were going on, and what we needed was less religion and more spirituality, and he [00:25:04.704 – 00:25:10.524] called for us, called for religion as spirituality. [00:25:10.524 – 00:25:20.804] Uh, so that's where the title started from, but it also came, uh, some, some of you may know that I was known as the, as the trustee [00:25:20.804 – 00:25:24.584] who, who was uncomfortable with the Lord's Prayer at open boo- meetings.

[00:25:24.584 – 00:25:34.604] Uh, so the issue, it started with some questions at a forum a- about religion and does that, uh, influence your actions around the, [00:25:34.604 – 00:25:35.304] the fellowship? [00:25:35.304 – 00:25:45.304] And out of that question, the continued work on the problem of the, or the issue of how does religion and spirituality relate and [00:25:45.304 – 00:25:48.564] how can we have a spirituality that is not religious. [00:25:48.564 – 00:25:50.764] AA clearly says it's not religious. [00:25:50.764 – 00:25:54.064] I think it's incredibly important that we maintain that. [00:25:54.064 – 00:26:01.764] Uh, and it's, uh, not being religious, what's that look like?

[00:26:01.764 – 00:26:11.904] So this book is essentially a sharing of my own experience, strength, and hope, uh, as, as someone who has been influenced deeply by this spirituality and thinks [00:26:11.904 – 00:26:15.844] it has a great deal to offer way beyond the fellowship. [00:26:15.844 – 00:26:19.824] Uh, so did I get that? [00:26:19.824 – 00:26:21.304] Yeah. [00:26:21.304 – 00:26:22.974] Yeah. [00:26:22.974 – 00:26:24.864] You knocked that softball too, my friend. [00:26:24.864 – 00:26:25.304] Thank you.

[00:26:25.304 – 00:26:35.994] Um, so when we talk about this, this spirituality and the application of it, um, you [00:26:35.994 – 00:26:42.274] know, the first pla- or, you know, uh, one of the places we look is, is community- [00:26:42.524 – 00:26:52.634] And, and could you talk about this power, this undefinable power as you so beautifully refer to it in the book, [00:26:52.634 – 00:27:02.684] um, in, in community and, and how that, uh, works in this, you know, incredibly difficult [00:27:02.684 – 00:27:04.524] and, uh, vicious disease? [00:27:04.524 – 00:27:06.484] Yes. [00:27:06.484 – 00:27:09.724] Uh, I mean, obviously one of the first things we…

[00:27:09.724 – 00:27:12.544] Any- anybody knows about AA is they have meetings. [00:27:12.544 – 00:27:17.724] Uh, that's what everybody n- you know, you have meetings. [00:27:17.724 – 00:27:22.244] Uh, they don't wanna go to the meetings, or they do wanna go to the meetings, but they have meetings. [00:27:22.244 – 00:27:32.644] Um, actually one of my favorite stories is the board weekend that was just before Cratine, [00:27:32.644 – 00:27:34.544] uh, Sandy hit New York. [00:27:34.544 – 00:27:45.724] And, and, uh, when Sandy hit, w- we, we had, we had the board meeting early and got out, but it was also the same weekend, same week as the world, uh, [00:27:45.724 – 00:27:47.484] or the World C..

[00:27:47.484 – 00:27:57.884] And the, uh, World C., many of the delegates [00:27:57.884 – 00:28:02.664] wanted to stay for the board meeting, which meant they had flights to leave on Monday or Tuesday. [00:28:02.664 – 00:28:08.834] And Monday, Sunday night, the Sandy came, or Sandy came in on, on Monday. [00:28:08.834 – 00:28:11.894] The hotel was, was without power. [00:28:11.894 – 00:28:19.264] Th- they were stranded, and, uh, the workmen who were coming in trying to restore power were staying at the hotel. [00:28:19.264 – 00:28:22.424] And one of the workmen came in really angry. [00:28:22.424 – 00:28:23.964] I mean, it was pretty miserable.

[00:28:23.964 – 00:28:28.624] It was cold, it was nasty, it was hard work and, and no power. [00:28:28.624 – 00:28:40.104] And he was ranting and raving, and he turned to these poor folks who were stuck in the hotel and said, "What the hell are you doing here anyway?" And, uh, they [00:28:40.104 – 00:28:47.284] explained to him that they were there for a AA meeting and a board meeting, and that they couldn't get out. [00:28:47.284 – 00:28:51.244] And he said, "Oh G., do I need a meeting." He was a friend of Bill's. [00:28:51.244 – 00:28:54.704] And, and so they found candles. [00:28:54.704 – 00:28:56.924] They found some… [00:28:56.924 – 00:29:03.584] A couple of the flash of the, of the phone's lights still worked, and they found a Big Book, and they had a meeting.

[00:29:03.584 – 00:29:06.084] And when it was over, he was a different person. [00:29:06.084 – 00:29:15.584] He was, he was still frustrated, he was still tired, he was still angry that all this was going on, but he treated other people with respect, and he… [00:29:15.584 – 00:29:17.964] It, that's the power of a meeting. [00:29:17.964 – 00:29:21.364] I mean, and just like that, it just changed things. [00:29:21.364 – 00:29:29.644] Uh, and some of you know I have had a, a wonderful time. [00:29:29.644 – 00:29:31.444] It's been the… [00:29:31.444 – 00:29:41.564] incredibly helpful working with people who, in AA, who are atheists, agnostics, and free thinkers.

[00:29:41.564 – 00:29:43.944] And I understand there are a couple of you here. [00:29:43.944 – 00:29:54.284] Um, the, um, one of the places we can really c- share is about the power of a meeting. [00:29:54.284 – 00:30:04.144] All groups have a, have a inner spirituality as well as an external, uh, identity. [00:30:04.144 – 00:30:15.384] So a group has members, it meets in places, it has schedules, it has rules and regulations, but there's also within that a spirituality that [00:30:15.384 – 00:30:18.004] h- has great power over the members of the group. [00:30:18.004 – 00:30:27.484] Um, my secretary at Trinity B. used to come into my office every so often, and she would say, "Ward, there are four ways to do things. [00:30:27.484 – 00:30:33.694] There's a right way, there's a wrong way, there's your way, and there's the Trinity way.

[00:30:33.694 – 00:30:43.944] I suggest this time we do the Trinity way." Because there's a way that that congregation would do things that others, [00:30:43.944 – 00:30:45.524] you might do it differently somewhere. [00:30:45.524 – 00:30:47.104] That's the spirit of the congregation. [00:30:47.104 – 00:30:49.024] If you wanna be effective, you gotta know it. [00:30:49.024 – 00:30:56.644] In business theory, th- they talk about the culture of a business, and you can't reform a business if you can't reform the culture. [00:30:56.644 – 00:31:05.344] Uh, two stories about community that, that I love. [00:31:05.344 – 00:31:15.424] Uh, one is how the spirit within the c- within the group transforms the behavior and,

[00:31:15.424 – 00:31:19.324] and the way people see things and react and respond. [00:31:19.324 – 00:31:26.344] This is about a little girl five years old, and how her behavior gets changed by a particular group she hangs out with. [00:31:26.344 – 00:31:29.163] Uh, so she… [00:31:29.163 – 00:31:37.384] There was a vacant house, vacant lot next to them when she was growing up, and they started building a house on it. [00:31:37.384 – 00:31:46.944] Well, five-year-old girl, uh, interested in what's going on next door, uh, was over there with the workmen and watching them and talking to them a little bit. [00:31:46.944 – 00:31:54.843] And after a while, they sort of adopt her as a mascot and, and th- they, at break time, she'll come and sit with them. [00:31:54.843 – 00:31:58.154] And, and then at, at lunch, at, at…

[00:31:58.154 – 00:32:02.284] Uh, her mother would fix a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and she would have l- lunch with the workmen. [00:32:03.072 – 00:32:12.672] And then they decided they needed to give her a little job, so she'd go pick up the wood chips that d- were s- scattered all around and put them in the thing to burn. [00:32:12.672 – 00:32:14.932] And then they got her to pick up nails. [00:32:14.932 – 00:32:18.412] And so they said, "You know, we really ought to pay her. [00:32:18.412 – 00:32:28.252] I think she would think that was great fun." And so they got a, got the company to write her a $10 check and put it in a company envelope and give it to her to, to, to take home. [00:32:28.252 – 00:32:38.312] So her mother was thrilled about this and thought, "Well, let's, let's go open a bank account." So they went to the bank and brought the [00:32:38.312 – 00:32:48.372] money to the teller, and teller asked about it and she said, "Well, I work, I work in a construction group," and explained that they were paying her for all

[00:32:48.372 – 00:32:48.952] her work. [00:32:48.952 – 00:33:01.122] And the teller said, "Well, are you gonna be working with her next year, next week?" And she said, "Well, if the assholes at Lowe's ever deliver the damn drywall, I am." The, [00:33:01.122 – 00:33:06.932] where you are in a group, it's gonna affect how you react, how you a- act. [00:33:06.932 – 00:33:17.192] Uh, the other one is, uh, uh, one of the things I think in AA and, and certainly in Bill's writing [00:33:17.192 – 00:33:27.192] and in, and, uh, some of the philosophers that are, that are, are part of the, part of the tradition here is [00:33:27.192 – 00:33:35.592] that it, the strongest groups come where there is true mutuality, and that comes above all else from shared suffering. [00:33:35.592 – 00:33:41.952] Uh, that when there is shared suffering, this is part of what builds an army together.

[00:33:41.952 – 00:33:52.032] A, a, a, a division in an army where there's been suffering, joint task, and that will produce a closeness and a power in the group that is, is [00:33:52.032 – 00:33:53.052] very, very S.. [00:33:53.052 – 00:33:58.032] Um, a- again, this story does, is in the book. [00:33:58.032 – 00:34:08.332] But a l- farmer was nailing up a sign on the post, uh, "Puppies for sale," and he feels a tug on his, on his jeans [00:34:08.332 – 00:34:08.992] and looks down. [00:34:08.992 – 00:34:17.692] There's a little boy who's, who's, uh, looks up at him and said, "Could I buy a puppy?" And the little boy… [00:34:17.692 – 00:34:18.632] And the farmer says, "No.

[00:34:18.632 – 00:34:21.512] Well, now these are really very fine puppies. [00:34:21.512 – 00:34:24.212] Uh, they're very expensive. [00:34:24.212 – 00:34:34.452] I don't know if you have enough money to, to, to buy a puppy." He said, "Well." So the little boy reaches in his pocket and pulls out about 35 cents and, and says, "Can, can [00:34:34.452 – 00:34:35.692] I," uh… [00:34:35.692 – 00:34:39.092] And David, I don't know what that is in pounds. [00:34:39.092 – 00:34:43.012] Uh, "Can, can I s- see the puppy? [00:34:43.012 – 00:34:46.012] Can I see the puppies?" And the farmer says, "Oh, sure.

[00:34:46.012 – 00:34:57.492] That'd be fine." And so he calls Dixie and she comes down out of the doghouse, and behind her comes four little fur balls bouncing down the ramp from the doghouse. [00:34:57.492 – 00:35:00.332] And the little boy is right up against the fence. [00:35:00.332 – 00:35:10.332] And then there's a fifth that's kind of almost rolling down, having a hard time walking, coming down, [00:35:10.332 – 00:35:20.612] and the little boy says, "I want that one." And the farmer says, "That little pup is injured, and he will never be able to run and play like [00:35:20.612 – 00:35:30.742] puppies do, and you won't be able to run and play with him." And the little boy reaches down and pulls up his pants, and you see the braces on his shoe, and he says, [00:35:30.742 – 00:35:33.112] "I don't run and play so good myself. [00:35:33.112 – 00:35:43.412] He'll need somebody who understands." And I, I, I use this story all the time, and I still get upset

[00:35:43.412 – 00:35:43.732] when I… [00:35:43.732 – 00:35:46.052] Get eerie when I tell it. [00:35:46.052 – 00:35:53.172] But it's that kind of mutuality is what brings great power to the group. [00:35:53.172 – 00:36:02.992] So I like to say the two stories, if you can remember those two stories, one, you're gonna be changed by the group like the little girl with the construction crew, and the other is like the boy with the pup. [00:36:02.992 – 00:36:06.852] Where there's true mutuality, the power is very, very S.. [00:36:06.852 – 00:36:12.502] Uh, and that's the kind of power that's in the group within AA. [00:36:12.502 – 00:36:19.911] Now, there are other groups, and I think part of what, what we can learn from AA, and, and people have.

[00:36:19.911 – 00:36:22.852] How many 12-step programs are there in the world? [00:36:22.852 – 00:36:24.932] I think it's over 170 now. [00:36:24.932 – 00:36:26.612] I can't imagine. [00:36:26.612 – 00:36:36.332] But, uh, because people have come to understand the power that's in this program is known by the coming together with groups. [00:36:36.332 – 00:36:41.312] It's fantastic, Ward. [00:36:41.312 – 00:36:51.351] Well, since we've, since we've talked about this common suffering and this, the, the, the, the community, um, you know, [00:36:51.352 – 00:36:54.732] y- you and I have ended up in some really fun places at the same time.

[00:36:54.732 – 00:37:04.772] And why don't you share with this group about the experience, um, that, that, uh, that you had in Santa M. when we, when [00:37:04.772 – 00:37:07.932] we met there with, uh, uh, with the free thinkers. [00:37:07.932 – 00:37:09.642] Uh, it was a- Oh, yeah … [00:37:09.642 – 00:37:11.072] an extraordinary weekend. [00:37:11.072 – 00:37:21.072] Yes, it was, and that was in some ways the real beginning of my knowing members of that community, that part of this community, uh, and [00:37:21.072 – 00:37:23.022] continuing to be in relationship with them. [00:37:23.900 – 00:37:33.920] Uh, there was some controversy about inviting a preacher to speak, uh, at, at this, uh, pre- atheist, agnostic,

[00:37:33.920 – 00:37:36.320] and free thinkers in AA international convention. [00:37:36.320 – 00:37:43.060] Uh, there was also some people who knew I wouldn't try to sell them anything. [00:37:43.060 – 00:37:47.560] Uh, it was… [00:37:47.560 – 00:37:53.120] We talked in that one about the power of the community, talked about the power of story. [00:37:53.120 – 00:37:57.340] Uh, and it was moving. [00:37:57.340 – 00:37:59.660] Uh, I j- I just don't know. [00:37:59.660 – 00:38:03.540] You know, Josie has become a very close friend.

[00:38:03.540 – 00:38:07.520] Um, it's, uh… [00:38:07.520 – 00:38:09.340] And it was fun. [00:38:09.340 – 00:38:18.500] I mean, AA should always be fun, and there should always be a lot of laughter, but, uh, only because it comes out of such closeness. [00:38:18.500 – 00:38:24.119] Uh, it was, uh, it was just a great conference. [00:38:24.119 – 00:38:34.160] And, and as I said, that's when I began to say, "We need to understand spirituality, uh, re- without religion as much as we need to understand, [00:38:34.160 – 00:38:44.400] as much as I, as a priest, need to understand religion." Uh, but we gotta be really clear that the two are, [00:38:44.460 – 00:38:44.980] can…

[00:38:44.980 – 00:38:49.000] The two intersect, but they're different things, and that's really critical. [00:38:49.000 – 00:38:53.000] And I think that's when I really kind of embraced that. [00:38:53.000 – 00:39:03.360] Uh, so it had, it had been a four to six-year evolution from the time that first question about, "Does religion affect your involvement in AA?" [00:39:03.360 – 00:39:10.900] to where I am today about this separation and, and distinction, but not hostility. [00:39:10.900 – 00:39:15.800] I mean, the, obviously I'm, I'm not in, I'm, I'm not totally schizophrenic. [00:39:15.800 – 00:39:26.040] Uh, uh, it's, uh, uh, uh, spirituality and religion can meet, but they need to be kept [00:39:26.040 – 00:39:28.880] distinct in some way.

[00:39:28.880 – 00:39:36.940] So, uh, so let's throw the hard ball then. [00:39:36.940 – 00:39:45.920] Um, there are only two places that you ever hear the Lord's Prayer, Christian C. and meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:39:45.920 – 00:39:48.000] What are your feelings on that? [00:39:48.000 – 00:39:58.020] Uh, I, I mean, I'm known, re- literally known, as the trust- as the preacher who doesn't like the Lord's Prayer at [00:39:58.020 – 00:39:59.260] open AA meetings. [00:39:59.260 – 00:40:08.960] Now, I also own very strongly that every meeting is autonomous, and every meeting sets its own agenda, and it's, it's appropriate for it to do so. [00:40:08.960 – 00:40:13.740] Part of what led me to write, writing this book was a couple of retreats I led.

[00:40:13.740 – 00:40:18.999] One was in, in New Jersey, and the other one was in Oklahoma, a men's Promises retreat. [00:40:18.999 – 00:40:28.840] And, um, they pushed me to, to share some of the, to to- to write down some of the stuff I was sharing at that point. [00:40:28.840 – 00:40:38.940] Uh, and at, at the Promises retreat, I did, one of my presentations was [00:40:38.940 – 00:40:49.240] on the Lord's Prayer, 'cause I can't think of a much more appropriate prayer, uh, for dealing with alcoholism or dealing with life, [00:40:49.240 – 00:40:58.420] but dealing with the bondage of self, and, and how do we move out of that to a life of, of joy, gratitude, and service. [00:40:58.420 – 00:41:05.540] Uh, I mean, I think the prayer is there, but it's identified as Christian, doesn't belong in AA. [00:41:05.540 – 00:41:12.040] Uh, and, and so maybe that…

[00:41:12.040 – 00:41:14.780] I, I might even get the little schizophrenic on the Lord's Prayer. [00:41:14.780 – 00:41:19.559] Uh, but, um, I think it's in… [00:41:19.559 – 00:41:23.270] It just, I'm scared to death. [00:41:23.270 – 00:41:34.200] We all have heard stories of people who came to AA, were turned off by the God talk, turned off by the prayer, turned off by gathering around the table and holding hands and saying the Lord's Prayer, [00:41:34.200 – 00:41:42.880] um, and didn't go back, and then eventually did come back because there was no place else to go, and they wanted to live. [00:41:42.880 – 00:41:48.930] But we haven't heard the stories of the people who came, were turned off, left, and never came back. [00:41:48.930 – 00:41:49.960] Yeah.

[00:41:49.960 – 00:41:51.500] And that's what really concerns me. [00:41:51.500 – 00:42:01.560] Uh, there are other reasons we need to keep it separate, but that's the real deep concern is, is how many people have come to this fellowship [00:42:01.560 – 00:42:07.880] that could give them new life and joy and been turned off by a few words that just don't belong. [00:42:07.880 – 00:42:11.040] Anyway, yes. [00:42:11.040 – 00:42:13.000] Thank you, Jay. [00:42:13.000 – 00:42:18.880] Um, let's see. [00:42:18.880 – 00:42:24.360] Would you be kind enough, um, we want, because we wanna get the power of story in here.

[00:42:24.360 – 00:42:34.980] So let's, let's talk about the, the power of story as far as its ability to, uh, to impact the, uh, the, [00:42:34.980 – 00:42:38.760] the flowering of spirituality in the individual. [00:42:38.760 – 00:42:39.260] Yeah. [00:42:39.260 – 00:42:43.610] Uh, actually, it's AA where I discovered- [00:42:43.728 – 00:42:44.968] The power of story. [00:42:44.968 – 00:42:52.608] And it's changed, again, how I look at scripture, how I look at how I deal with people, how we get people to tell their story. [00:42:52.608 – 00:43:03.608] Uh, there was a, a interview on NPR by someone who was working with gangs, and he said, "We,

[00:43:03.608 – 00:43:05.528] as human beings, need three things. [00:43:05.528 – 00:43:07.928] We need to know who we are, we know… [00:43:07.928 – 00:43:17.128] need to know where we belong, and we need to know why we're here." We need to have a sense of identity, a sense of, of belonging, and a sense of, of purpose. [00:43:17.128 – 00:43:23.347] And the, the place that story hits in… [00:43:23.347 – 00:43:23.748] And we… [00:43:23.748 – 00:43:31.408] I just talked about belonging and connecting, but the place of who I am is about my story. [00:43:31.408 – 00:43:39.048] If you ask, if I ask you, Jay, "Who are you?" And we have enough time, it'll take a lot of time with you.

[00:43:39.048 – 00:43:44.208] If we have enough time, uh, you will tell me your story. [00:43:44.208 – 00:43:48.908] You won't, you won't give me scientific information about human body. [00:43:48.908 – 00:43:51.948] Uh, and we all see it in AA. [00:43:51.948 – 00:43:55.408] I, I have a s- group that I attend here locally. [00:43:55.408 – 00:43:57.288] I helped found, get it started. [00:43:57.288 – 00:44:03.228] I'm in a very rural county in East T., and we had one AA meeting on Sunday night, and it was closed. [00:44:03.228 – 00:44:08.348] And so I helped get another one started that's, that's an open meeting.

[00:44:08.348 – 00:44:10.428] And I go occasionally. [00:44:10.428 – 00:44:17.548] I don't go every week because I don't think it's good for a non-mem- non-alcoholic to be there all the time. [00:44:17.548 – 00:44:21.188] But they love me, and they accept me, and I love them. [00:44:21.188 – 00:44:29.008] Um, but so w- one day there was a new person, court directed. [00:44:29.008 – 00:44:33.188] He needed to get his card signed, and he didn't say a word. [00:44:33.188 – 00:44:34.948] And he was… [00:44:34.948 – 00:44:39.547] Several weeks he was coming, getting his card signed, not speaking.

[00:44:39.547 – 00:44:40.708] And then… [00:44:40.708 – 00:44:43.988] And I happened to be there the day that as… [00:44:43.988 – 00:44:49.568] It's a discussion group, and as they kind of went around the table, he said, "I'm John. [00:44:49.568 – 00:44:55.748] I'm glad to be here." And everybody in the room knew we had just hit a major change. [00:44:55.748 – 00:45:00.288] And then he begins to tell his story, u- ultimately. [00:45:00.288 – 00:45:02.428] And I remember it was about a y- He had the… [00:45:02.428 – 00:45:12.488] I think it was his first anni- first year anniversary when he was asked to share the story, and he told the story of his alcoholism, his beh- of, of, of the compulsion,

[00:45:12.488 – 00:45:14.848] and y'all know the story. [00:45:14.848 – 00:45:19.637] And it was s- drunk a log, and how he was doing better. [00:45:19.637 – 00:45:22.448] Then I heard him a couple of years later. [00:45:22.448 – 00:45:22.808] He… [00:45:22.808 – 00:45:24.688] This has been, been about three years now. [00:45:24.688 – 00:45:32.948] A couple of years later, and then he was telling, talking about gratitude and new life, and, and relationship with his parents. [00:45:32.948 – 00:45:35.408] And, and it was just a…

[00:45:35.408 – 00:45:38.788] And you see his whole personality change- Mm … [00:45:38.788 – 00:45:40.028] as he told this story. [00:45:40.028 – 00:45:45.208] And the telling of the story is an integral part of making that change. [00:45:45.208 – 00:45:48.048] It's, uh, it's… [00:45:48.048 – 00:45:57.248] We become who we believe we are if we tell our story, and it's, it's transform… [00:45:57.248 – 00:46:05.088] It's part of the transformation power of this pro- of this fellowship, of this program, of this spirituality, is we have to tell our story. [00:46:05.088 – 00:46:15.448] And as we tell our story, then that will change us and, and begin, becomes a part of that continuous complex

[00:46:15.448 – 00:46:18.028] interaction of our spirituality. [00:46:18.028 – 00:46:23.328] Thank you, my friend. [00:46:23.328 – 00:46:33.368] Um, so everybo- I, I believe that everybody that's on the Zoom and, and your friends will have [00:46:33.368 – 00:46:34.428] the experience that I have. [00:46:34.428 – 00:46:40.048] If you read this book, there will be stuff that you will steal and appropriate as your own. [00:46:40.048 – 00:46:50.368] Now, I come from a spiritual lineage of Norm A. that says, "If you give credit three times, the line is yours." So W., this is the third time. [00:46:50.368 – 00:47:00.648] And, uh, and, and would you be kind enough to talk about this, this idea of the, the,

[00:47:00.648 – 00:47:10.648] the centrality and then the, the, um, importance of an undefinable power greater [00:47:10.648 – 00:47:14.728] than ourselves, and maybe weave that in with faith and experience? [00:47:14.728 – 00:47:18.048] And then we'll open up to the group after, after this. [00:47:18.048 – 00:47:19.687] We'll let Stuart take it from there. [00:47:19.687 – 00:47:22.268] I'm glad you got simple questions, Jay. [00:47:22.268 – 00:47:24.908] Uh, the, um… [00:47:24.908 – 00:47:25.848] Wow.

[00:47:25.848 – 00:47:35.988] It is so important [00:47:35.988 – 00:47:37.848] for us to own our ignorance. [00:47:37.848 – 00:47:45.928] Um, I wouldn't be in this program if I didn't own that I don't know anything about alcoholism. [00:47:45.928 – 00:47:54.168] That's what got me started, was my ignorance, and I came here, and it changed my life and, and continues to change my life. [00:47:54.168 – 00:48:03.978] Um, the arrogance of having, of someone claiming to have the an- [00:48:04.258 – 00:48:06.328] answer and everybody else should be like them. [00:48:06.328 – 00:48:12.228] I'm, I'm in the southern part of the United States with Tennessee.

[00:48:12.228 – 00:48:17.208] Y'all, mostly you are Tennessee, um, or, or US. [00:48:17.208 – 00:48:27.247] This is part of the Bible B., and the churches all know that they have the right answer, and if anybody disagrees with them, they're wrong, and if they don't change their mind, they can go [00:48:27.248 – 00:48:27.688] to hell. [00:48:27.688 – 00:48:33.228] Uh, the arrogance of that is so divisive and so destructive. [00:48:33.228 – 00:48:43.848] And now in our whole country, thanks at least in part to, to, uh, electronic media, [00:48:43.848 – 00:48:49.308] uh, everybody finds the group that confirms their po- position, and they are convinced they're right. [00:48:49.308 – 00:48:59.588] And, and, and every- I remember there was a recent thing, a poll that said, uh, Democrats, more Democrats were opposed

[00:48:59.588 – 00:49:03.508] to their children marrying a Republican than marrying someone of a different race. [00:49:03.508 – 00:49:08.248] Uh, we've gotten to this horrible position. [00:49:08.248 – 00:49:16.768] Um, that's what it comes when you decide you know everything. [00:49:16.768 – 00:49:19.608] Uh, I love this statement from John W.. [00:49:19.608 – 00:49:23.048] John W. is a, a astrophysicist, gave us… [00:49:23.048 – 00:49:26.168] He's best known for giving the world the term black hole. [00:49:26.168 – 00:49:36.238] Uh, but he wrote it, said that, um, "Knowledge is like an island in the midst of ignorance,

[00:49:36.238 – 00:49:43.468] and as our knowledge grows, so does the shoreline of our ignorance." Mm. [00:49:43.468 – 00:49:45.448] We don't learn our way out of this thing. [00:49:45.448 – 00:49:47.148] It continues. [00:49:47.148 – 00:49:49.688] We, we will be ignorant. [00:49:49.688 – 00:49:50.688] We are ignorant. [00:49:50.688 – 00:49:57.448] That means w- we, it's easy to get things backward. [00:49:57.448 – 00:50:04.888] That means that the primary factor in our lives is experience, what we experience.

[00:50:04.888 – 00:50:14.928] And this is where the dialogue with atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, and traditional people who have a traditional faith comes together 'cause we [00:50:14.928 – 00:50:21.948] have a similar experience, and we can learn from each other's experience, and we can grow from each other's experience. [00:50:21.948 – 00:50:26.068] And it's that sharing of experience that brings strength and hope. [00:50:26.068 – 00:50:31.008] Um, so what we need to do… [00:50:31.008 – 00:50:36.708] And faith is about, uh, trying to explain experience. [00:50:36.708 – 00:50:38.468] It's not the other way around. [00:50:38.468 – 00:50:40.608] Faith doesn't come first.

[00:50:40.608 – 00:50:42.138] Faith is, is trying… [00:50:42.138 – 00:50:52.588] Faith, belief is trying to explain the experience that's changed my life and given me a new life and a new sh- new spirituality. [00:50:52.588 – 00:50:59.808] Uh, but experience is what we all share and all we, we can talk, that we can talk about. [00:50:59.808 – 00:51:03.588] Did I get it? [00:51:03.588 – 00:51:06.388] It seems like there was something else there, but that's, that's enough. [00:51:06.388 – 00:51:14.508] Jay, are you gone? [00:51:14.508 – 00:51:19.118] I think we- I shouldn't be.

[00:51:19.118 – 00:51:19.588] I shouldn't be gone. [00:51:19.588 – 00:51:19.618] Ah. [00:51:19.618 – 00:51:20.268] Excuse me. [00:51:20.268 – 00:51:22.278] Thank you for that, Jay. [00:51:22.278 – 00:51:23.888] Lack of power was my dilemma. [00:51:23.888 – 00:51:26.128] I had to, I had to switch to another device. [00:51:26.128 – 00:51:29.048] Um, so, uh, I…

[00:51:29.048 – 00:51:31.788] Ward, I, I can't thank you enough. [00:51:31.788 – 00:51:39.648] And, um, if, if Stewart would be kind enough to, uh, to, uh, work with the group of cats here. [00:51:39.648 – 00:51:43.818] Uh, David, thank you for the privilege of, uh, introducing my friend to- Oh … [00:51:43.818 – 00:51:45.207] uh, to all of our friends. [00:51:45.207 – 00:51:46.948] That was, that was wonderful. [00:51:46.948 – 00:51:48.128] Thank you, Ward, for your time. [00:51:48.128 – 00:51:48.707] Thank you, Jay.

[00:51:48.707 – 00:51:52.828] I'm gonna, you're allowed to, uh, show some appreciation if you'd like to now. [00:51:52.828 – 00:51:53.688] Uh, there you go. [00:51:53.688 – 00:51:55.808] Well done, Ward. [00:51:55.808 – 00:51:56.348] Thank you. [00:51:56.348 – 00:51:57.148] Thank you. [00:51:57.148 – 00:51:57.828] Great job. [00:51:57.828 – 00:51:58.237] Thank you.

[00:51:58.237 – 00:51:58.238] Thank you so much. [00:51:58.238 – 00:51:58.239] Thank you. [00:51:58.239 – 00:51:58.468] Thank you so much. [00:51:58.468 – 00:52:06.198] Thank you. [00:52:06.198 – 00:52:06.199] Thank you so much, Ward. [00:52:06.199 – 00:52:06.200] Oh, my God. [00:52:06.200 – 00:52:06.201] Thank you, Rob.

[00:52:06.201 – 00:52:06.202] Thank you. [00:52:06.202 – 00:52:06.203] Thank you. [00:52:06.203 – 00:52:06.688] Thank you, Ward. [00:52:06.688 – 00:52:07.338] Thank you. [00:52:07.338 – 00:52:08.168] Thank you so much, Ward. [00:52:08.168 – 00:52:09.308] Wonderful evening. [00:52:09.308 – 00:52:10.058] Beautiful.

[00:52:10.058 – 00:52:13.868] Now, I, I have put a link in just in the chat for those who'd like to listen to that again. [00:52:13.868 – 00:52:15.608] It will be on Recovery Speakers later on. [00:52:15.608 – 00:52:17.248] Again, thanks to Mike K.. [00:52:17.248 – 00:52:22.468] While S. is getting ready, I just wanna mention what's coming up next week, and just briefly, I'll do that in a couple of minutes. [00:52:22.468 – 00:52:25.408] And thank you, Ward, ever so much for that. [00:52:25.408 – 00:52:26.518] We appreciate it. [00:52:26.518 – 00:52:28.608] So that's the book again.

[00:52:28.608 – 00:52:37.108] It's titled, uh, 12 Steps to Religiousless S.: The Power of Spirituality W. or Without G. by Ward B. [00:52:37.108 – 00:52:37.468] E.. [00:52:37.468 – 00:52:40.948] And next week, I just wanna br- bring your attention to this. [00:52:40.948 – 00:52:50.178] Growing U. A Group meets every Thursday at 7:30 in the UK, and we read a chapter of the marvelous book Writing the Big Book: The Creation of A.A. [00:52:50.178 – 00:52:51.188] by Bill S.. [00:52:51.188 – 00:52:55.188] And, uh, it's, we're in December 1938 this week. [00:52:55.188 – 00:52:59.428] Again, just quickly, I just wanna bring your attention to the history, if you're into this kind, A.A.

[00:52:59.428 – 00:53:03.828] history, the 1940s a- Akron pamphlets, and that's by Jim W.. [00:53:03.828 – 00:53:09.668] Now next week here we're delighted to welcome back, we always love having Patrick OD here with us. [00:53:09.668 – 00:53:13.488] Patrick's gonna be doing random roots of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:53:13.488 – 00:53:17.888] And the following week Patrick's coming back to talk on S.. [00:53:17.888 – 00:53:24.528] And that brings us full cycle again, circle again to the 10th of, of June, and we're on, we're gonna be looking at the new Thor- [00:53:24.856 – 00:53:26.616] Uh, movement, uh, with Jim. [00:53:26.616 – 00:53:29.376] A new talk moving, I believe, AA and its influence on the…

[00:53:29.376 – 00:53:31.796] I believe that's what Jim is going to do that on, um, Jim W.. [00:53:31.796 – 00:53:36.456] And as you can see there, we're going to be talking on Hank P. course as well with Chris J.. [00:53:36.456 – 00:53:43.396] And in the end of that month, uh, June, we're gonna be doing Challenging the Creation M., and that's by Bill S.. [00:53:43.396 – 00:53:44.476] Okay. [00:53:44.476 – 00:53:48.776] With that, uh, s- Stuart, if you're ready to go, I'll, I'll turn it over to you. [00:53:48.776 – 00:53:51.596] Hello again, everybody. [00:53:51.596 – 00:53:56.256] And just- Sure, I'll, I'll- Stuart, I guess we should mention it's not a discussion section, just, uh, if you wanna men- thank you.

[00:53:56.256 – 00:53:57.956] Yeah. [00:53:57.956 – 00:54:04.636] Um, if you'd like to come in and be part of the meeting and ask a question- Mm-hmm … [00:54:04.636 – 00:54:09.275] um, then please raise your hand in the participant section, and I'll call on you. [00:54:09.275 – 00:54:12.446] As D. said, we're not in a debate- Mm … [00:54:12.446 – 00:54:13.455] debate this evening. [00:54:13.455 – 00:54:18.176] Any one of the 84 people. [00:54:18.176 – 00:54:18.876] There we go.

[00:54:18.876 – 00:54:19.736] Here you all are. [00:54:19.736 – 00:54:20.376] Lovely. [00:54:20.376 – 00:54:22.676] We're gonna start off with, um, Hugh. [00:54:22.676 – 00:54:24.236] Good evening, Hugh. [00:54:24.236 – 00:54:26.396] Good evening, everyone. [00:54:26.396 – 00:54:27.266] I'm an alcoholic. [00:54:27.266 – 00:54:28.196] My name's Hugh.

[00:54:28.196 – 00:54:30.916] I wouldn't have missed this for the world. [00:54:30.916 – 00:54:39.326] Um, I don't know if you remember me, Ward, but I got to know you at the 61st and 62nd General S. Conferences- Right … [00:54:39.326 – 00:54:40.436] in the area of Columbia. [00:54:40.436 – 00:54:50.496] Um, my question, I- if I go to a atheist, agno- quad A or [00:54:50.496 – 00:54:54.506] free thinkers meeting, I'm welcome- Right … [00:54:54.506 – 00:54:58.036] even though, even though I'm a religious person. [00:54:58.036 – 00:55:05.816] You know, I believe in a particular God, and I have a faith, but a lot of them don't feel that way about coming to my meetings.

[00:55:05.816 – 00:55:07.386] Yeah. [00:55:07.386 – 00:55:14.256] And my question really is, what are the key things that we could do in our home groups- Mm … [00:55:14.256 – 00:55:18.036] to make them feel like they don't have to start their own meetings? [00:55:18.036 – 00:55:18.396] Wow. [00:55:18.396 – 00:55:20.156] 'Cause they're r- it's really no different. [00:55:20.156 – 00:55:20.986] Right. [00:55:20.986 – 00:55:22.436] That's a great question.

[00:55:22.436 – 00:55:32.775] Uh, in one-on-one conversations, as I just said, I find talking about experience opens up a lot of insight [00:55:32.775 – 00:55:36.616] and it, and o- obviously brings a close relationship. [00:55:36.616 – 00:55:39.516] When I share my experience, they share their experience, so on. [00:55:39.516 – 00:55:43.796] And that's what both meetings have in common. [00:55:43.796 – 00:55:49.036] Uh, obviously one of the things is don't rub religion in their face. [00:55:49.036 – 00:55:49.916] Right. [00:55:49.916 – 00:55:52.156] Get, get rid of the Lord's Prayer.

[00:55:52.156 – 00:55:54.256] I don't know about the Serenity P.. [00:55:54.256 – 00:56:00.776] I love the Spr- Serenity P., but maybe w- if we could figure out a way to do that without saying God. [00:56:00.776 – 00:56:09.036] Um, but I think you need to ask them. [00:56:09.036 – 00:56:15.416] Uh, I think they, um… [00:56:15.416 – 00:56:25.556] I was, one of the learnings that I got at Santa M. was how much they did [00:56:25.556 – 00:56:35.776] feel dissed and, and excluded from the regular meetings, and we're often said, "You just can't stay sober if you don't believe in God." [00:56:35.776 – 00:56:36.516] We're told that.

[00:56:36.516 – 00:56:39.996] Um, a lot of the side conversations. [00:56:39.996 – 00:56:46.856] Um, and I was kind of shocked that that was really widespread. [00:56:46.856 – 00:56:54.716] I think it's diminished a little bit, uh, but it's, that's a little bit. [00:56:54.716 – 00:56:56.236] I hope so. [00:56:56.236 – 00:56:57.536] I hope so. [00:56:57.536 – 00:57:07.556] Uh, but I think the way to, the only way to, that, that we who have a faith in God can connect with those who do not is to hear their story and hear their [00:57:07.556 – 00:57:11.276] sense about how the meeting needs to be run.

[00:57:11.276 – 00:57:13.536] Don't be afraid of their rewriting the steps. [00:57:13.536 – 00:57:17.416] Uh, there's some really interesting things there. [00:57:17.416 – 00:57:27.466] Um, and I think we need to become learners, and if we can get a, get a culture of learning as [00:57:27.466 – 00:57:31.456] well as, as recovery somewhere, I don't, I don't… [00:57:31.456 – 00:57:37.256] But I don't know much more than that, but I, I do think it's a serious, serious difficulty. [00:57:37.256 – 00:57:38.566] Thank you. [00:57:38.566 – 00:57:44.095] In fact, I, there, there was a time I was afraid this fellowship was really gonna split.

[00:57:44.095 – 00:57:48.716] Uh, I, I feel less anxious about that today. [00:57:48.716 – 00:57:52.636] Thank you very much. [00:57:52.636 – 00:57:53.156] All right. [00:57:53.156 – 00:57:53.816] Great job. [00:57:53.816 – 00:57:54.566] Thank you. [00:57:54.566 – 00:57:55.396] Thank you so much. [00:57:55.396 – 00:57:57.246] We're gonna go to Gloria C.

[00:57:57.246 – 00:57:57.856] now. [00:57:57.856 – 00:57:59.056] Good evening, Gloria. [00:57:59.056 – 00:58:02.936] Well, hi, everybody, uh, and thank you, Stuart. [00:58:02.936 – 00:58:07.916] Thank you, David, and Ward, um, and Jay, thank you too. [00:58:07.916 – 00:58:15.136] Uh, Ward, it was a, it was an honor just to be on the same screen with you, uh, and to listen. [00:58:15.136 – 00:58:16.336] I soaked it all up. [00:58:16.336 – 00:58:18.896] I except when I was writing things down.

[00:58:18.896 – 00:58:28.996] But anyway, um, this is a personal question, and it comes from me being a psych nurse for, um, about 30 years. [00:58:28.996 – 00:58:30.326] Mm. [00:58:30.326 – 00:58:32.826] Um, and, uh, all sober years, by the way. [00:58:32.826 – 00:58:43.916] But, um, you said that you had s- uh, pretty serious suicidality as an adolescent, and I wondered if after [00:58:43.916 – 00:58:44.976] your experience- [00:58:45.124 – 00:58:55.444] with the ministry and with the 12 steps of AA, if that has been, uh, a problem, if it has diminished or, [00:58:55.444 – 00:58:59.584] you know, how that awakening has occurred in you.

[00:58:59.584 – 00:59:02.024] If you don't mind me asking a personal question. [00:59:02.024 – 00:59:03.904] No, that's, that's fine. [00:59:03.904 – 00:59:14.484] And, um, through college and seminary I struggled with, um, what [00:59:14.484 – 00:59:24.664] it means to say that God loves you and all you have to do is ex- these are Paul T.'s words, that, that we are loved by God not because of anything we have earned, [00:59:24.664 – 00:59:29.244] not because of anything we have done, and all we have to do is to accept that love. [00:59:29.244 – 00:59:31.044] By the time I… [00:59:31.044 – 00:59:33.864] I remember once getting sort of drunk.

[00:59:33.864 – 00:59:35.144] I did a lot of… [00:59:35.144 – 00:59:38.554] By the way, if, if I hadn't, if, if I'd have… [00:59:38.554 – 00:59:44.524] I'm absolutely convinced that alcoholism is a disease, because I tried hard and it didn't take. [00:59:44.524 – 00:59:46.134] Uh, I was an- … [00:59:46.134 – 00:59:47.384] a pretty abusive drinker. [00:59:47.384 – 00:59:57.524] And if, and if, uh, if I had, if it had been successful for me to deal with my problems that way, I would never have been a class, a, a non-alcoholic trustee. [00:59:57.524 – 01:00:07.104] Uh, but by the time I graduated from seminary I really think that was sort of dealt with, sorta.

[01:00:07.104 – 01:00:11.904] I would not talk, I did not talk publicly about that. [01:00:11.904 – 01:00:18.264] And, and it was a, a year later that I got married, and my wife knew and no one else knew. [01:00:18.264 – 01:00:20.964] And I did not publicly… [01:00:20.964 – 01:00:27.424] Then in some small group work I did it with my, with that group with, with Willie and those guys. [01:00:27.424 – 01:00:28.544] I talked, I shared. [01:00:28.544 – 01:00:33.364] That was probably the first group I ever shared with tho- those, that, those 10 years. [01:00:33.364 – 01:00:38.064] Uh, I was 50 before I publicly s- told the story.

[01:00:38.064 – 01:00:41.524] So it obviously still carried some weight. [01:00:41.524 – 01:00:47.744] But I've not contemplated suicide since 25 years old or so. [01:00:47.744 – 01:00:53.104] And I, I, I do give the church credit for that. [01:00:53.104 – 01:00:56.584] What AA gave me was a, a language that helped me understand it. [01:00:56.584 – 01:01:00.684] Thank you. [01:01:00.684 – 01:01:03.524] We're gonna go to Bill S. now. [01:01:03.524 – 01:01:04.364] Good evening, Mr.

[01:01:04.364 – 01:01:05.084] Shaeburg. [01:01:05.084 – 01:01:06.684] Evening. [01:01:06.684 – 01:01:07.144] Good evening. [01:01:07.144 – 01:01:08.284] Thank you very much, Stuart. [01:01:08.284 – 01:01:10.104] And Ward, it was really great to hear you. [01:01:10.104 – 01:01:13.804] And Jay Let- Let had some great questions there. [01:01:13.804 – 01:01:20.084] I gotta, I just, I'm just curious, um, about possible negative feedback you've gotten.

[01:01:20.084 – 01:01:30.104] I mean, as a guy who's published some contrary stuff myself, uh, you know, people come at you and say, you know, "You're, you're killing alcoholics with, with, with this stuff." You [01:01:30.104 – 01:01:30.254] know? [01:01:30.254 – 01:01:34.184] Uh, and I just wonder if, if people have, uh… [01:01:34.184 – 01:01:40.144] I, I wanna compliment you really, really strongly on the courage it took to, to write and publish this book. [01:01:40.144 – 01:01:47.044] And, and I, I, I know that there are, there are people that, that you were a little probably worried about their reaction to it. [01:01:47.044 – 01:01:49.364] But, uh, could you just speak to that? [01:01:49.364 – 01:01:51.384] What, what's happened since the book came out on that?

[01:01:51.384 – 01:01:52.984] Have you been getting negative comments? [01:01:52.984 – 01:01:54.744] Almost none. [01:01:54.744 – 01:02:03.044] Uh, and I, I'm, I don't understand any of that . [01:02:03.044 – 01:02:13.133] Uh, I, I know I wrote a couple of articles for the Grapevine about atheist and agnostics in AA supporting the reality that there's only [01:02:13.133 – 01:02:18.284] one criteria for membership, uh, the desire to get sober. [01:02:18.284 – 01:02:23.064] I mean, and I thought there might be some negatives about from that. [01:02:23.064 – 01:02:25.904] I never have received any negatives.

[01:02:25.904 – 01:02:29.424] Uh, sometimes I think people may not know how to get ahold of me. [01:02:29.424 – 01:02:31.073] Uh- … [01:02:31.073 – 01:02:31.844] I'm not hiding. [01:02:31.844 – 01:02:38.604] But, but, uh, mostly it's been folks who have been very complimentary. [01:02:38.604 – 01:02:41.544] Uh, not a lot of reaction from the church. [01:02:41.544 – 01:02:47.544] I think I'm getting more negative from the, negatives from the church than I am from the fellowship. [01:02:47.544 – 01:02:57.464] Uh, the fellowship are not offended by spirituality with or without God, not offended by s- by religionless spirituality.

[01:02:57.464 – 01:02:59.404] The church is a little anxious about it. [01:02:59.404 – 01:03:06.204] But the folks I have heard from in any detail have been the folks who are very excited about this book. [01:03:06.204 – 01:03:16.224] Uh, and, and while I've got Bill on the screen, uh, I, I want to affirm again what a fabulous book [01:03:16.224 – 01:03:17.924] Wri- Writing the Big Book is. [01:03:17.924 – 01:03:19.184] You know, it's… [01:03:19.184 – 01:03:22.024] So if you haven't gotten it, you really need to get that. [01:03:22.024 – 01:03:30.764] Uh, I was able, was blessed to read it before it was published, and I'm really glad because if I'd seen an 800-page book I might have not ever read it.

[01:03:30.764 – 01:03:35.664] Uh, and I had the electronic copy and I didn't know how long it was gonna go on. [01:03:35.664 – 01:03:37.484] Uh, but it reads like a mystery. [01:03:37.484 – 01:03:38.424] It's just fabulous. [01:03:38.424 – 01:03:45.244] It's not just the t- the information, it's also the, the writing is q- is just wonderful. [01:03:45.244 – 01:03:47.414] The- Thank you, Ward … [01:03:47.414 – 01:03:57.704] but, but no, I have not had, it has not been a negative experience for me, nor have I had any, any, any real confrontation from anyone. [01:03:57.704 – 01:04:00.464] Great.

[01:04:00.464 – 01:04:01.724] Thank you very much. [01:04:01.724 – 01:04:03.704] We're gonna go to Gary N. [01:04:03.704 – 01:04:03.984] now. [01:04:03.984 – 01:04:05.024] Good evening, Gary [01:04:06.292 – 01:04:06.972] Hi there. [01:04:06.972 – 01:04:17.672] Um, Ward, um, this is a reunion for me as, as such because, uh, with you being here and Jay being here and Bill S. being here, [01:04:17.672 – 01:04:23.792] I feel I sh- should be wearing my, uh, I survived the third Sedona S..

[01:04:23.792 – 01:04:34.002] Uh, 'cause that drive, I swear, if you didn't have a spiritual experience while you were at that symposium, I surely had a spiritual experience leaving [01:04:34.002 – 01:04:38.491] that symposium and doing that eight or nine-mile drive in the, in the mud. [01:04:38.491 – 01:04:41.952] Um, that, that really is, uh, something I didn't… [01:04:41.952 – 01:04:43.592] I, I, I will never forget. [01:04:43.592 – 01:04:52.712] My, my question is, uh, more along the lines from your experience with the free thinkers, the, uh, agnostics and, and atheists. [01:04:52.712 – 01:04:53.552] I… [01:04:53.552 – 01:04:59.732] From any kind of attendance that they've done, is, is there prayers done as a group?

[01:04:59.732 – 01:05:09.812] It would be one thing to, you know, let's say, uh, if one is to, uh, le- let's say not use the Lord's Prayer at an open meeting, if [01:05:09.812 – 01:05:15.012] a prayer is to be said as a group, what prayer would be, uh, appropriate? [01:05:15.012 – 01:05:25.492] Wouldn't it be a nice, uh, possibility for the free thinkers to actually come up with a prayer to suggest as palaba- as palatable [01:05:25.492 – 01:05:27.892] to the larger AA communities at home? [01:05:27.892 – 01:05:34.912] It's one thing to be critical of something, but it's another thing to actually come up with a positive replacement. [01:05:34.912 – 01:05:35.132] Right. [01:05:35.132 – 01:05:35.672] Your thoughts?

[01:05:35.672 – 01:05:41.992] W- what I have experienced has been to use the responsibility pledge. [01:05:41.992 – 01:05:51.692] If anyone anywheres reaches out for help, I want the hand of AA to be there, and that that's often used, circled up. [01:05:51.692 – 01:06:04.852] Um, I love the prayer that y'all began this with, and, and again, um, maybe, [01:06:04.852 – 01:06:05.792] I don't know how you… [01:06:05.792 – 01:06:11.432] Do a little editing to get it to the spirituality to, to the spirit of this fellowship. [01:06:11.432 – 01:06:15.951] May the spirit of this fellowship da, da, da, da, da, something. [01:06:15.951 – 01:06:27.212] I, I think it will be helpful if we can keep the distinction between religion and spirituality so that the non-religious are comfortable talking about spirituality.

[01:06:27.212 – 01:06:28.212] And I think one of… [01:06:28.212 – 01:06:31.332] Certainly one of the things I have seen is that they are… [01:06:31.332 – 01:06:36.532] Many do not even like to use the term spirituality 'cause they think it's a way religion sneaks in. [01:06:36.532 – 01:06:40.252] Uh, and I th- I'm, I'm, uh… [01:06:40.252 – 01:06:49.852] If I have any hope out of the, this book, is to recognize that spirituality is something distinct, and it doesn't need to sneak in. [01:06:49.852 – 01:06:52.452] Re- It, it's not a way for religion to sneak in. [01:06:52.452 – 01:06:53.972] It's…

[01:06:53.972 – 01:06:56.572] And that's certainly my experience as I listen to their stories. [01:06:56.572 – 01:07:02.832] I mean, good gracious, uh, you got folks, atheists and agnostics, 40 years sobriety. [01:07:02.832 – 01:07:04.772] Don't tell me they can't get sober. [01:07:04.772 – 01:07:06.892] Yeah, yeah, Bill. [01:07:06.892 – 01:07:10.452] Uh, it's, uh, uh… [01:07:10.452 – 01:07:14.382] So, but I don't… [01:07:14.382 – 01:07:15.912] I think they're…

[01:07:15.912 – 01:07:18.412] I think we need to be a little scared of ritual. [01:07:18.412 – 01:07:23.312] Um, ritual is characteristic of religion. [01:07:23.312 – 01:07:27.192] Uh, we need a little ritual. [01:07:27.192 – 01:07:29.672] I mean, we really need a little ritual. [01:07:29.672 – 01:07:32.792] We need a something we can say together. [01:07:32.792 – 01:07:41.051] I, I think the reading of how it works, the reading of the, the promises or whatever is read at the meetings is, is, is a good thing. [01:07:41.051 – 01:07:51.172] Um, anyway, I'm not sure I'm answering the question, but, uh, but the responsibility pledge has been the thing that is,

[01:07:51.172 – 01:07:52.252] I've most often heard. [01:07:52.252 – 01:07:54.852] Great. [01:07:54.852 – 01:07:56.132] Thank you very much. [01:07:56.132 – 01:07:58.952] We're now gonna go to Bob H.. [01:07:58.952 – 01:08:00.092] Good evening, Bob. [01:08:00.092 – 01:08:01.632] Thank you, Stuart. [01:08:01.632 – 01:08:08.912] I just wanna say again, I'll be get- ordering one, another book after one of these Friday night history meetings.

[01:08:08.912 – 01:08:12.882] I can't, can't think of how many I've ordered after I've heard them talked about. [01:08:12.882 – 01:08:18.152] And the basketball player he was talking about is Jeremy L.. [01:08:18.152 – 01:08:18.492] Right. [01:08:18.492 – 01:08:19.072] Right. [01:08:19.072 – 01:08:19.342] Yeah. [01:08:19.342 – 01:08:20.272] I just blanked on his… [01:08:20.272 – 01:08:20.752] Thank you.

[01:08:20.752 – 01:08:21.132] Thank you. [01:08:21.132 – 01:08:21.532] Thank you. [01:08:21.532 – 01:08:23.251] I just really blanked on his name. [01:08:23.251 – 01:08:25.451] And he's- And you know… [01:08:25.451 – 01:08:26.032] Oh, go ahead. [01:08:26.032 – 01:08:27.692] No, he's still a star. [01:08:27.692 – 01:08:28.212] Okay.

[01:08:28.212 – 01:08:33.872] He's left the NBA, but he's in an Asian league, and- Yeah … [01:08:33.872 – 01:08:33.881] he's… [01:08:33.881 – 01:08:34.092] Yep. [01:08:34.092 – 01:08:39.972] And you know, one of the things that I've noticed personally myself is over… [01:08:39.972 – 01:08:40.392] When I… [01:08:40.392 – 01:08:50.432] About three, maybe four or five years ago, I started seeing some of these free thinking and different other, uh, aspects of Alcoholics [01:08:50.432 – 01:08:58.652] Anonymous, and I was really afraid that, you know, they were gonna take something away from us, and, and, and, and, and do us in.

[01:08:58.652 – 01:09:07.572] But the more that I've read their stuff and, and, and, and looked at it, the more I see it's something that we can learn from. [01:09:07.572 – 01:09:11.452] Like you were saying, they, they, they h- just have a different point of view. [01:09:11.452 – 01:09:13.152] And- Right … [01:09:13.152 – 01:09:20.792] that's where my closed-mindedness comes in, when I think, you know, my way is the highway, and if it ain't, get, get out of here. [01:09:20.792 – 01:09:22.732] And one last thing I wanna say. [01:09:22.732 – 01:09:25.912] You just showed me again how fortunate we- [01:09:26.062 – 01:09:33.332] we are to have the quality of the Class A trustees that we come to work for Alcoholics Anonymous.

[01:09:33.332 – 01:09:34.392] Thank you. [01:09:34.392 – 01:09:37.252] Thank you, Bob. [01:09:37.252 – 01:09:41.411] Uh, now you just drove out my response. [01:09:41.411 – 01:09:45.022] W- we're saying… [01:09:45.022 – 01:09:55.092] Yeah, I think, um, fear is a destroyer of relationships, and I think when [01:09:55.092 – 01:09:56.772] we… [01:09:56.772 – 01:10:06.852] In AA, part of what, and part of the reason you, you need to read the writing of the Big Book is because y- to really understand how this

[01:10:06.852 – 01:10:08.092] program evolved. [01:10:08.092 – 01:10:11.972] It didn't evolve because somebody could f- could, some, a group of… [01:10:11.972 – 01:10:12.512] Can you… [01:10:12.512 – 01:10:22.612] Now, the way we would try to tackle alcoholism is get a group of, uh, psychologists together, and they would define alcoholism, and then they would define [01:10:22.612 – 01:10:26.232] what you have to do to make it go away, and try to find a pill. [01:10:26.232 – 01:10:29.912] Uh, Gloria, I don't mean that. [01:10:29.912 – 01:10:32.012] That's not aimed at you personally.

[01:10:32.012 – 01:10:37.812] Um, uh, AA didn't work that way. [01:10:37.812 – 01:10:45.552] It, it, you know, there's almost nothing in the Big Book about groups, even though they were meeting. [01:10:45.552 – 01:10:51.212] It's, it's later when we get the traditions that help define the groups. [01:10:51.212 – 01:11:01.252] Uh, and Bill was really caref- s- rigid that we would not put in a lot of rules, and I think AA has evolved, [01:11:01.252 – 01:11:04.852] and it's evolving now. [01:11:04.852 – 01:11:06.852] I mean, this meeting is a different… [01:11:06.852 – 01:11:11.672] We didn't have these two years ago, and, and I don't think they're gonna go away.

[01:11:11.672 – 01:11:21.292] I don't know, I don't know what's gonna happen with AA, but it's, it evolves, and I think we need to not be afraid of any voice. [01:11:21.292 – 01:11:31.772] If we can love and care for them, it's a way we can grow and they can grow, and when we get fearful, we [01:11:31.772 – 01:11:32.592] destroy that. [01:11:32.592 – 01:11:35.392] So thank you for that, Bob. [01:11:35.392 – 01:11:37.612] Thank you. [01:11:37.612 – 01:11:39.912] We have a couple more people. [01:11:39.912 – 01:11:42.172] We're gonna go to Bill in Pittsburgh now.

[01:11:42.172 – 01:11:42.972] Hello, Bill. [01:11:42.972 – 01:11:43.552] Good evening. [01:11:43.552 – 01:11:45.032] Hi. [01:11:45.032 – 01:11:46.792] Thank you for letting me, uh, ask my question. [01:11:46.792 – 01:11:48.802] Thank you so much, Ward, for that, uh, presentation. [01:11:48.802 – 01:11:52.822] I'm, I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic from Buffalo, and I may have crossed- Oh … [01:11:52.822 – 01:11:54.372] paths with you at some point.

[01:11:54.372 – 01:11:56.372] Uh, I got sober in '84, so I… [01:11:56.372 – 01:11:59.281] If you were there in the '80s, uh, I may have run into you. [01:11:59.281 – 01:12:01.292] Um, I just, I'd have questions. [01:12:01.292 – 01:12:11.302] So I really liked your, your definition of spirituality as our, the things we perceive, the, the, uh, the feelings we have about those perceptions, and then the choices we make, and [01:12:11.302 – 01:12:17.612] that made me think that there's, you know, literally an infinite number of different kinds of spiritualities then, uh, that we could talk about, right? [01:12:17.612 – 01:12:18.682] We have lots of different- Yeah … [01:12:18.682 – 01:12:19.582] examples of them.

[01:12:19.582 – 01:12:22.462] Uh, there's no one sort of one size fits all kind of… [01:12:22.462 – 01:12:25.501] There's n- not a certain mold, uh, for spirituality. [01:12:25.501 – 01:12:27.032] It can take all different kinds of forms. [01:12:27.032 – 01:12:35.452] And so my question for you is, uh, do you think that there is something, uh, unique about AA spirituality, about the spirituality in AA? [01:12:35.452 – 01:12:40.192] And I know you talk about this in your book, but I'm just curious if you could sort of put that in a nutshell. [01:12:40.192 – 01:12:46.752] What do you think it is about AA spirituality that makes it different from all the other spiritualities, or not? [01:12:46.752 – 01:12:54.122] Maybe, maybe there's nothing different about AA spirituality, but I'm curious how you would, how you would, uh, characterize it if there is something unique about it.

[01:12:54.122 – 01:12:54.292] Right. [01:12:54.292 – 01:13:04.452] I would want to talk about the spirit of AA, uh, the, the, of, of the organization, and it's inclusive. [01:13:04.452 – 01:13:12.812] Anybody who wants to get sober is welcome and is a, can be a member, uh, which means I'm not a member. [01:13:12.812 – 01:13:13.872] You know that, don't you? [01:13:13.872 – 01:13:24.112] Uh, it's, it focuses on growth from bondage to self, to gratitude [01:13:24.112 – 01:13:24.832] and service. [01:13:24.832 – 01:13:35.912] Uh, gratitude and service become almost, uh, as Ernie K. says, synonymous with recovery.

[01:13:35.912 – 01:13:42.572] And so that whole sense of the spirituality of gratitude, the spirituality of… [01:13:42.572 – 01:13:46.152] And for me, the most important piece is rigorous honesty. [01:13:46.152 – 01:13:52.212] Uh, that was what was so wonderful about the little group that I met for five years with. [01:13:52.212 – 01:13:53.472] They didn't care… [01:13:53.472 – 01:13:56.032] Cler- clergy, by the way, nobody wants us to be honest. [01:13:56.032 – 01:14:06.102] Uh, this is the only community where I've ever had the experience of we don't care what you think or how you feel or anything, as long as you're as honest as you can possibly [01:14:06.102 – 01:14:07.952] be about it, and that's okay.

[01:14:07.952 – 01:14:08.852] Then it's okay. [01:14:08.852 – 01:14:11.772] So I, I would, I would… [01:14:11.772 – 01:14:17.552] For me personally, rigorous honesty is probably the most important thing, a recognition that we… [01:14:17.552 – 01:14:25.092] A- acceptance and surrender that we, we cannot change the past, uh, but we can, we can grow from that. [01:14:25.092 – 01:14:27.892] Uh, the, uh… [01:14:27.892 – 01:14:30.312] But the… [01:14:30.312 – 01:14:40.352] People walk into the rooms of AA, and even, like my friend who didn't speak for six weeks, he felt the love that was in that room, and he felt the hope that was in that room,

[01:14:40.352 – 01:14:45.052] and he came to understand that that room accepted him. [01:14:45.052 – 01:14:46.362] So there's a spirit of acceptance [01:14:46.520 – 01:14:47.440] There's a spirit of… [01:14:47.440 – 01:14:48.820] I'm, I'm rambling. [01:14:48.820 – 01:14:50.220] I really need to write this down. [01:14:50.220 – 01:14:53.280] But i- if that's… [01:14:53.280 – 01:14:56.560] Yes, I think there's a unique spirituality in this fellowship.

[01:14:56.560 – 01:15:06.340] Now, I think some others may also sh- strive toward it, uh, particularly NA or, uh, Gamblers A.- … [01:15:06.340 – 01:15:16.880] Uh, uh, I think Gamblers A.- Anonymous is a little different, but, but the others who use the steps and work toward this [01:15:16.880 – 01:15:19.740] find some of the same spiritual characteristics within them. [01:15:19.740 – 01:15:28.540] So we're, we're not unique, but, but there is a unique spirituality in AA that is AA, I think. [01:15:28.540 – 01:15:31.970] Great. [01:15:31.970 – 01:15:33.100] Thank you so much. [01:15:33.100 – 01:15:35.500] We're gonna go to Jenny M now.

[01:15:35.500 – 01:15:36.300] Hello, Jenny. [01:15:36.300 – 01:15:36.900] Good evening. [01:15:36.900 – 01:15:39.040] Hi, everybody. [01:15:39.040 – 01:15:42.650] Uh, my name is Jenny, and I'm not a member of Alcoholics. [01:15:42.650 – 01:15:44.080] I'm a member of Al-Anon. [01:15:44.080 – 01:15:49.460] And, um, I never actually heard of you, Ward, until they were, like, pr- um, promoting. [01:15:49.460 – 01:15:50.750] They have us promote- …

[01:15:50.750 – 01:15:54.520] promote this meeting, and I've just been thrilled to listen to you. [01:15:54.520 – 01:16:00.040] Um, and I've become, like, an AA, um, speaker meeting junkie. [01:16:00.040 – 01:16:06.700] And, um, I can't even tell you what, how much I get out of AA meetings, and I don't s- share in them or anything. [01:16:06.700 – 01:16:16.820] And I, I just wanted to say, like, I go to some of these speaker meetings, and I'm just, like, so blown away by, like, an hour speaker, and then they'll end it, several of them still, [01:16:16.820 – 01:16:21.100] either as, as the official s- prayer of the meeting or… [01:16:21.100 – 01:16:26.280] Uh, I understand when they s- when they want the speaker to take us out with the ch- pray- prayer of their choice. [01:16:26.280 – 01:16:27.220] I have no problem with that.

[01:16:27.220 – 01:16:33.380] But when it's the, like, the speak- when they use the Lord P. and I just bristle at it, and it's just, you know… [01:16:33.380 – 01:16:35.600] In, throughout the Big Book, I can… [01:16:35.600 – 01:16:45.180] You know, I, I bristled at all the God stuff, but, but now I don't except, um, for, "Our F. who art in heaven." I mean, like you were saying, I mean, the prayer is fine. [01:16:45.180 – 01:16:45.490] Why can't… [01:16:45.490 – 01:16:49.400] And just the, the Serenity P., I don't have a problem with it, and I know someone who does. [01:16:49.400 – 01:16:52.440] Why can't we just start with, "Grant me the serenity"? [01:16:52.440 – 01:16:56.540] Why do we have to address and describe who the God is?

[01:16:56.540 – 01:16:57.360] So that's… [01:16:57.360 – 01:17:00.460] Anyway, I was just so thrilled to hear you. [01:17:00.460 – 01:17:03.640] I'm gonna get your book, and I'm gonna get the other book about writing the Big Book. [01:17:03.640 – 01:17:11.160] And, um, thanks for, um, letting me, um, get started getting recovery at the age of 71. [01:17:11.160 – 01:17:12.060] Thank you. [01:17:12.060 – 01:17:14.120] Yeah. [01:17:14.120 – 01:17:16.990] Thank you.

[01:17:16.990 – 01:17:17.400] Thank you. [01:17:17.400 – 01:17:20.760] We're gonna go to Dan in Australia. [01:17:20.760 – 01:17:22.000] Hello, Dan. [01:17:22.000 – 01:17:22.880] Good morning. [01:17:22.880 – 01:17:23.900] Yeah. [01:17:23.900 – 01:17:24.799] Good morning, Stuart. [01:17:24.799 – 01:17:26.400] Thanks, thanks very much.

[01:17:26.400 – 01:17:36.680] Uh, W- Ward, I, I, I can't recall whether it was, it was either, I think, uh, Thomas M. or Anthony de Mello I, I read where they said, uh, [01:17:36.680 – 01:17:40.540] that perhaps the biggest barrier to God is the word God. [01:17:40.540 – 01:17:44.500] In listening to you here this morning, it seems that you agree with them. [01:17:44.500 – 01:17:52.740] Would, would, would you also agree that, uh, uh, you, you mentioned about, uh, prejudice, either positive or negative. [01:17:52.740 – 01:17:59.860] You know, like, somebody can waver from, uh, being laid back and an easygoing sort of a guy to the laziest mongrel on Earth. [01:17:59.860 – 01:18:10.320] Would, would you also agree that perhaps the, the biggest barrier to, uh, to, to me growing in, uh, in [01:18:10.320 – 01:18:12.980] understanding and effectiveness is certainty?

[01:18:12.980 – 01:18:15.140] The, the certainties that- Well- Yeah. [01:18:15.140 – 01:18:23.240] I can develop a brand new set, a brand new set of old ideas and hide them behind, uh, the badge of spirituality or AA. [01:18:23.240 – 01:18:25.320] Yeah. [01:18:25.320 – 01:18:28.440] Certainty is a, is the end of growing. [01:18:28.440 – 01:18:31.940] When I'm certain, I'm done. [01:18:31.940 – 01:18:33.580] Yeah. [01:18:33.580 – 01:18:43.240] Uh, uh, I think it, it doesn't mean we have to be in despair, but it does mean we need to be open, that there's new insights or new ways we can learn.

[01:18:43.240 – 01:18:45.780] There are new n- there, there's always… [01:18:45.780 – 01:18:55.780] Um, I was at a conference a couple weeks ago, and one of the people said, "I've suddenly discovered that living in the steps and [01:18:55.780 – 01:19:01.880] living in this fellowship is n- is a little bit like being a musician or an athlete. [01:19:01.880 – 01:19:04.080] You n- you need to keep growing every year. [01:19:04.080 – 01:19:14.140] You, you, it doesn't, you don't get to the endpoint, and you need a coach, and my sponsor is my coach." And I thought, "Wow, that's [01:19:14.140 – 01:19:20.100] really good." Uh, so that's two weeks ago, and I've been doing this for 44 years. [01:19:20.100 – 01:19:20.490] Yeah.

[01:19:20.490 – 01:19:22.600] And it's, again, learning. [01:19:22.600 – 01:19:33.340] And I'm, I, I really do consider myself a learner, and I think it doesn't mean I'm throwing away everything that I've gone so far, but there's always more out there, [01:19:33.340 – 01:19:37.040] and when you decide you've got the answer, then you stop. [01:19:37.040 – 01:19:39.590] Indeed. [01:19:39.590 – 01:19:40.580] Thank- thanks, Ward. [01:19:40.580 – 01:19:44.540] Like, like you, uh, I like the, the Celtic term, term… [01:19:44.540 – 01:19:50.860] My, my sponsor happens to be a little Irishman, and I like the, the Celtic term anam cara, and I need a little bit of guidance along the way.

[01:19:50.860 – 01:19:51.900] Thanks very much. [01:19:51.900 – 01:19:53.180] Been a great presentation. [01:19:53.180 – 01:19:55.420] Thank you very much. [01:19:55.420 – 01:19:59.550] Couple, just time for a couple more, and then we're, then we're done. [01:19:59.550 – 01:20:02.210] We're gonna go to C Finch now. [01:20:02.210 – 01:20:04.220] Good evening. [01:20:06.928 – 01:20:09.148] Sorry, no, I did change my name before I went.

[01:20:09.148 – 01:20:14.408] I am also a member of Al-Anon, as somebody else has just shared. [01:20:14.408 – 01:20:20.488] Um, um, I'm just fascinated to listen to the conversation about spirituality. [01:20:20.488 – 01:20:27.128] I, I, I don't go to AA meetings, um, so I didn't know they say the Lord's Prayer. [01:20:27.128 – 01:20:37.428] But what I would say is there's a lot in our daily readers, um, particularly quotes which are directly from [01:20:37.428 – 01:20:47.588] the Holy B., and also obviously the Prayer of Saint F., um, which I know is a very powerful, very, very powerful, [01:20:47.588 – 01:20:53.248] um, prayer which we and our sister fellowship use. [01:20:53.248 – 01:20:57.868] And I think that the spirituality for…

[01:20:57.868 – 01:21:05.988] I have a God, and he is God, so I'm dead lucky, but I, I am in fellowship with a lot of people who don't. [01:21:05.988 – 01:21:16.528] And for some of us it's good orderly direction, and some of us it's the great outdoors, but it's the good inside that comes from fellowship [01:21:16.528 – 01:21:19.388] and that harmony of wanting to grow. [01:21:19.388 – 01:21:24.228] And, and I just comment, rigidity, Zoom helped us. [01:21:24.228 – 01:21:25.408] My pup's … [01:21:25.408 – 01:21:35.788] Zoom helped us to break free of that rigidity, offer fellowship in very many different ways, [01:21:35.788 – 01:21:42.728] um, and has created, I, I would like to think, more opportunity for people to come into recovery.

[01:21:42.728 – 01:21:52.748] Um, but I'm just very proud of the fact that it was December 1938, 'cause that's when my dad was born, and my dad went [01:21:52.748 – 01:21:57.048] to Al-Anon, uh, within 15, 20 years of it starting. [01:21:57.048 – 01:22:07.148] So, um, I truly, truly believe in the Big Book, and I truly, truly believe in the incredible brilliance of, [01:22:07.148 – 01:22:13.848] um, the original two 12-step programs, if I could say that, um, and their relevance today. [01:22:13.848 – 01:22:23.048] And the extent to which modern psychology, particularly current practice, borrows from our programs is unbelievable. [01:22:23.048 – 01:22:27.808] Um, I, I, I don't expect, um, Ward to, to feed back on that. [01:22:27.808 – 01:22:36.628] I just really just wanted to comment and say I'm grateful to the person that told me this meeting was going on, 'cause it's very powerful and it's lovely to have such a S. debate.

[01:22:36.628 – 01:22:36.948] Thank you. [01:22:36.948 – 01:22:39.168] Thank you. [01:22:39.168 – 01:22:42.488] We're gonna, um, finish up now with Nick P. [01:22:42.488 – 01:22:44.128] Hello, Nick, in London. [01:22:44.128 – 01:22:45.708] Yeah. [01:22:45.708 – 01:22:47.008] Good evening, everybody. [01:22:47.008 – 01:22:48.188] My name's Nick, and I'm an alcoholic.

[01:22:48.188 – 01:22:50.508] Well, it was so interesting hearing from you. [01:22:50.508 – 01:23:00.768] And, um, uh, just to give you where I'm coming from with regards to the question I wanna ask you is that I come to Alcoholics Anonymous as an atheist, [01:23:00.768 – 01:23:02.148] and I knew what an atheist was. [01:23:02.148 – 01:23:12.188] And, um, through the process of, uh, recognizing what the power was for me and conceding that it was God and becoming [01:23:12.188 – 01:23:21.028] a Christian through that process, you know, in, in London more people are involved in spirituality than they are with Christianity. [01:23:21.028 – 01:23:22.208] That's my experience. [01:23:22.208 – 01:23:28.488] And I kind of like get more mocked because I've become a Christian rather than believing in this spirituality.

[01:23:28.488 – 01:23:34.628] So, the reverse is what I, what I've been hearing in America, in a sense. [01:23:34.628 – 01:23:43.108] But when I actually sit down with these people that believe in a God of their understanding, which is spirituality, they're not doing anything different that I'm doing as a Christian. [01:23:43.108 – 01:23:49.268] And how does that conform with your faith and the division that you have? [01:23:49.268 – 01:23:56.688] You almost described it as a schizophrenic state of be- as identifying yourself as a Christian. [01:23:56.688 – 01:24:06.788] Do you simply believe that other people have spirituality, or have s- or the methods of spirituality are actually affecting your Christian life, [01:24:06.788 – 01:24:07.648] if that makes sense? [01:24:07.648 – 01:24:10.848] I, I'm not sure I understood everything.

[01:24:10.848 – 01:24:12.068] It was a little … [01:24:12.068 – 01:24:14.848] The sound was a little foggy, fuzzy. [01:24:14.848 – 01:24:23.367] But, um, yes, I appreciate that you came as an atheist and ended up as a r- person with a religion. [01:24:23.367 – 01:24:26.328] Um, and that can happen. [01:24:26.328 – 01:24:36.448] My point would be religion is the explanation of the experience, and at, to some extent, [01:24:36.448 – 01:24:39.068] the experience of how did I get sober? [01:24:39.068 – 01:24:50.088] When you stop and look back at that and some, and, and do your, your evaluations, do your inventory, um,

[01:24:50.088 – 01:24:51.188] it's a mystery. [01:24:51.188 – 01:24:56.808] Ultimately, there's some sense of why did I do this and others not? [01:24:56.808 – 01:25:00.588] Why did those around me do what they did and others … [01:25:00.588 – 01:25:03.548] Th- there's just some level of mystery. [01:25:03.548 – 01:25:08.828] And, and I think that's the heart of AA spirituality, is that it's a mystery. [01:25:08.828 – 01:25:19.028] And for many, whether it be Jewish, Christian, and, and now more and more Muslims, find that their religion [01:25:19.028 – 01:25:22.328] is what they need to explain that mystery.

[01:25:22.328 – 01:25:27.218] I'm suggesting that maybe we don't need to explain the mystery, but just- [01:25:27.376 – 01:25:27.956] Just endorse it. [01:25:27.956 – 01:25:32.596] Uh, but that's, that's an individual thing. [01:25:32.596 – 01:25:35.356] Uh, and for many… [01:25:35.356 – 01:25:46.236] But what is, is important in our conversations, particularly where there are real differences around religion, what's important [01:25:46.236 – 01:25:48.156] is to share experience. [01:25:48.156 – 01:25:56.716] Let go of trying to sh- make somebody else believe that the explanation that I have found, that's helpful.

[01:25:56.716 – 01:26:02.856] Is that- That was great. [01:26:02.856 – 01:26:03.996] Thank you very much. [01:26:03.996 – 01:26:07.296] Thank you very much, everybody, that's taken part tonight. [01:26:07.296 – 01:26:09.976] This has been a really, really powerful Q&A. [01:26:09.976 – 01:26:12.676] Um, I'm gonna hand the meeting back to David. [01:26:12.676 – 01:26:13.356] Thank you. [01:26:13.356 – 01:26:15.536] I, I think I'm allowed to ask a question.

[01:26:15.536 – 01:26:21.136] I'm gonna Ward, I'm, I'm a, I'm a reader of Joseph C., the mythologist. [01:26:21.136 – 01:26:23.736] I, I love reading his work, The Power of Myth. [01:26:23.736 – 01:26:24.385] Yeah. [01:26:24.385 – 01:26:29.456] And he talks about religion, he talks about religion as not institutionalized religion- Right, right … [01:26:29.456 – 01:26:35.736] but religion in the term religio, which brings man back to the source of all being. [01:26:35.736 – 01:26:41.816] I kind of, I'm comfortable when I speak of religion, like when we say in here when we speak to you of God, we mean your own understanding of God. [01:26:41.816 – 01:26:47.156] I think when I speak of religion to people, I'm not talking about as someone who was brought up in an institutionalized religion.

[01:26:47.156 – 01:26:54.396] I'm not speaking of an institutionalized body, I'm speaking of a, an, an entity that I ca- I believe the source of all being. [01:26:54.396 – 01:26:57.836] But I, I believe that's the purpose of true religion. [01:26:57.836 – 01:26:58.866] Would that be a fair statement? [01:26:58.866 – 01:27:00.516] Would that what? [01:27:00.516 – 01:27:02.906] Would that be s- fair to say that- Oh … [01:27:02.906 – 01:27:07.296] true religion is to bring man back to beyond the ego, to go beyond the ego? [01:27:07.296 – 01:27:08.356] Yeah.

[01:27:08.356 – 01:27:09.616] Uh, absolutely. [01:27:09.616 – 01:27:20.416] And, uh, I was at a retreat up in Hazelden a couple weeks ago where the director there referred to the religion [01:27:20.416 – 01:27:21.196] as the source. [01:27:21.196 – 01:27:22.896] I thought that's interesting. [01:27:22.896 – 01:27:25.636] And so there's something… [01:27:25.636 – 01:27:36.196] We, we wanna try to name it, we wanna try to understand it, and we, as long as we understand those are our names and our understandings, [01:27:36.196 – 01:27:43.036] and there may be others, and one is not necessarily right and the other one wrong.

[01:27:43.036 – 01:27:46.736] They're all partial, let's just be brutally honest. [01:27:46.736 – 01:27:47.776] They're all partial. [01:27:47.776 – 01:27:51.916] We don't under- I don't even understand why this world exists. [01:27:51.916 – 01:27:58.576] I mean, I get everything that's going on, I, all I can do is be grateful for it, but I don't understand. [01:27:58.576 – 01:28:00.396] I understand, I understand… [01:28:00.396 – 01:28:03.056] That's why I think I, I like that Wheeler quote. [01:28:03.056 – 01:28:13.056] I understand less and less every day, um, and I think what's important is for us to own that, and, and then

[01:28:13.056 – 01:28:14.516] we can really grow from each other. [01:28:14.516 – 01:28:16.946] Beautiful. [01:28:16.946 – 01:28:18.796] But source, source is wonderful. [01:28:18.796 – 01:28:20.476] Beautiful. [01:28:20.476 – 01:28:21.156] Thank, thank you. [01:28:21.156 – 01:28:27.595] I'm gonna put Ward's email into the chat again, and if you'd like to unmute yourselves and we'll give some appreciation to Ward. [01:28:27.595 – 01:28:30.116] Ward, we ap- we really do thank you for your time.

[01:28:30.116 – 01:28:30.636] Thank you. [01:28:30.636 – 01:28:31.436] Appreciate it. [01:28:31.436 – 01:28:32.476] This was wonderful. [01:28:32.476 – 01:28:32.646] Thank you, Ward. [01:28:32.646 – 01:28:34.356] My heart is so full. [01:28:34.356 – 01:28:34.386] Yay. [01:28:34.386 – 01:28:34.996] Thank you, Sarah.

[01:28:34.996 – 01:28:37.046] I feel like I've got- Thank you, Ward … [01:28:37.046 – 01:28:37.796] very healing. [01:28:37.796 – 01:28:39.036] Ward, fabulous. [01:28:39.036 – 01:28:41.186] Thank you, Ward. [01:28:41.186 – 01:28:42.866] Thanks to Jay, too, for his questions. [01:28:42.866 – 01:28:43.576] That was so enlightening. [01:28:43.576 – 01:28:44.116] Thank you.

[01:28:44.116 – 01:28:45.546] Thank you, Jay. [01:28:45.546 – 01:28:47.456] Yes, I'm gonna be looking up that book. [01:28:47.456 – 01:28:48.676] It's a great book. [01:28:48.676 – 01:28:49.756] The last… [01:28:49.756 – 01:28:51.476] The 12 Steps to Religious… [01:28:51.476 – 01:28:58.636] Religionless S.: The Power of Spirituality W. or Without G. by Ward B. [01:28:58.636 – 01:28:59.016] E..

[01:28:59.016 – 01:29:01.216] Well said. [01:29:01.216 – 01:29:03.966] Ward, it's tradition that we've been doing for s- Great articles in the chat … [01:29:03.966 – 01:29:04.476] oh, go ahead. [01:29:04.476 – 01:29:05.176] Go ahead, Debbie. [01:29:05.176 – 01:29:06.016] Debbie, please. [01:29:06.016 – 01:29:09.056] There are great finding articles I put in the chat, too, if you wanna look those up. [01:29:09.056 – 01:29:11.256] I did put, I did post, re-post it for you, Debbie.

[01:29:11.256 – 01:29:13.006] I did, I did post it for you. [01:29:13.006 – 01:29:21.016] Ward, we have a tradition that we ask the, our, our guest to sh- close the meeting for us, this part of the meeting, with a, a thought, a poem, or something. [01:29:21.016 – 01:29:30.456] Uh, some people use also would you like to choose something, uh, to leave us out in the- Whichever, whatever, whatever you wish. [01:29:30.456 – 01:29:30.916] Thank you. [01:29:30.916 – 01:29:32.616] I'd go with responsibility. [01:29:32.616 – 01:29:38.836] I will put it up on the fl- I will put it up on the ch- on the, um, I will put it up on the screen for you, Ward. [01:29:38.836 – 01:29:41.396] We have it here, 'cause Jay uses this one as well.

[01:29:41.396 – 01:29:41.736] There you go. [01:29:41.736 – 01:29:44.076] I am responsible. [01:29:44.076 – 01:29:44.755] Responsible. [01:29:44.755 – 01:29:45.346] Responsible. [01:29:45.346 – 01:29:47.416] And anyone- And anyone, anywhere Anywhere … [01:29:47.416 – 01:29:48.956] reach yourself for help. [01:29:48.956 – 01:29:49.906] Reach yourself for help.

[01:29:49.906 – 01:29:51.466] I want the hand today- And today … [01:29:51.466 – 01:29:52.016] that's gonna be there. [01:29:52.016 – 01:29:53.856] Always gonna be there. [01:29:53.856 – 01:29:55.786] And for that I am responsible. [01:29:55.786 – 01:29:56.895] And for that I am responsible. [01:29:56.895 – 01:29:59.256] Thank you, Ward E. and Jay S.. [01:29:59.256 – 01:30:01.576] Thank you, Ward.

[01:30:01.576 – 01:30:03.886] Thank you, Ward. [01:30:03.886 – 01:30:04.426] Thank you, Jay. [01:30:04.426 – 01:30:04.746] Thank you, Ward. [01:30:04.746 – 01:30:04.747] Thanks, guys. [01:30:04.747 – 01:30:04.856] Thank you. [01:30:04.856 – 01:30:05.896] That was wonderful. [01:30:05.896 – 01:30:07.716] Thanks, David.

[01:30:07.716 – 01:30:08.396] Thanks, Stuart. [01:30:08.396 – 01:30:09.716] Thank you. [01:30:09.716 – 01:30:11.296] See you next week. [01:30:11.296 – 01:30:11.306] Thank you. [01:30:11.306 – 01:30:12.256] Where am I? [01:30:12.256 – 01:30:13.756] Great 90 minutes. [01:30:13.756 – 01:30:14.656] Yeah.

[01:30:14.656 – 01:30:15.296] Questions? [01:30:15.296 – 01:30:17.036] Wonderful. [01:30:17.036 – 01:30:19.636] And that's been recorded, so I will put it up on recovery… [01:30:19.636 – 01:30:23.256] Well, Mike K. will put it up on recovery speakers soon. [01:30:23.256 – 01:30:23.826] That was wonderful. [01:30:23.826 – 01:30:24.996] So W. doesn't, didn't… [01:30:24.996 – 01:30:30.976] It's a good thing Ward didn't feel like he had to write it down, 'cause he can transcribe it and- We could listen to it again.

[01:30:30.976 – 01:30:32.696] Yeah. [01:30:32.696 – 01:30:38.416] So I'm gonna pause the recording, because we do have the meeting after the meeting after the meeting, which is called the parking lot meeting. [01:30:38.416 – 01:30:43.386] So I'm just gonna pau- Car park. [01:30:43.386 – 01:30:43.836] You may. [01:30:43.836 – 01:30:47.416] Ah, that's what I, that's what I didn't want.