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[00:00:00.880 – 00:00:02.060] I think it seems to be. [00:00:02.060 – 00:00:12.080] Uh, good evening everyone, my name is David and I'm an alcoholic, and you're all very welcome to this Reading B. meeting on Zoom hosted by the Growing and Understanding [00:00:12.080 – 00:00:12.600] AA Group. [00:00:12.600 – 00:00:14.720] Now, normally we'd have, uh, Mr. [00:00:14.720 – 00:00:16.950] S. with us today, Bill S., but he's not. [00:00:16.950 – 00:00:18.100] He's unfortunately not with us. [00:00:18.100 – 00:00:19.320] He'll be back next week.

[00:00:19.320 – 00:00:29.540] So w- what we decided to do is take a break from the reading, uh, today, and we've asked some members to share their experience, uh, with regards to how the Writing the Big Book: The Creation of AA has [00:00:29.540 – 00:00:34.060] influenced their understanding Alcoholics Anonymous and its creation. [00:00:34.060 – 00:00:37.000] Okay, so you got that. [00:00:37.000 – 00:00:40.660] Um, so I'm an alcoholic and, uh, my name is David, and along with Jim W…. [00:00:40.660 – 00:00:43.460] Hi, my name's Jim and I'm an alcoholic. [00:00:43.460 – 00:00:47.700] And I'll, uh, I'll be back later for a presentation and the Q&A. [00:00:47.700 – 00:00:48.610] That's right.

[00:00:48.610 – 00:00:58.000] And Jim is gonna do a f- a, a presentation for us today, uh, on Writing the Big Book: The Creation of AA, and it's on, uh, Bill W., his- Yes … [00:00:58.000 – 00:01:02.100] story versus, uh, Bill S.- Yes … [00:01:02.100 – 00:01:02.760] his story. [00:01:02.760 – 00:01:04.820] So we're looking forward to that. [00:01:04.820 – 00:01:07.680] And that'll be after the members share their experience. [00:01:07.680 – 00:01:10.140] Well, I, I can't talk to you now, I'm on a meeting. [00:01:10.140 – 00:01:12.080] Burt, you are talking to us.

[00:01:12.080 – 00:01:13.620] Thank you. [00:01:13.620 – 00:01:13.650] I got it. [00:01:13.650 – 00:01:14.040] Okay. [00:01:14.040 – 00:01:14.740] So the au… [00:01:14.740 – 00:01:17.720] Burt, the audio of these meetings are being recorded. [00:01:17.720 – 00:01:21.250] I, and will be, uh, at the end be posted onto recoveryspeakers.com. [00:01:21.250 – 00:01:23.000] And just give a shout-out to Mike K. for that.

[00:01:23.000 – 00:01:25.340] Thank you Mike, for putting them up every week. [00:01:25.340 – 00:01:35.580] Uh, I mentioned Tradition F. which said, "The long form, each AA group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose, of course, that of carrying its message to the alcoholics who are still suffering." [00:01:35.640 – 00:01:45.680] And, and keeping it within the traditions of AA, the main purpose of these Reading B. meetings is to improve our understanding of the fellowship, the wonderful fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the message contained [00:01:45.680 – 00:01:48.100] in the book titled Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:01:48.100 – 00:01:51.860] And of course, we're looking at the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:01:51.860 – 00:01:59.140] Okay, I'm just gonna put up, um, a version of the Set A. Prayer, which I find remarkable. [00:01:59.140 – 00:02:03.490] When I ever s- say this, it just gets me right sized every time.

[00:02:03.490 – 00:02:08.580] So if you'd like to join in, uh, using God as you understand it, please unmute yourself. [00:02:08.580 – 00:02:09.500] Thank you very much. [00:02:09.500 – 00:02:10.840] So using God, God. [00:02:10.840 – 00:02:11.760] God. [00:02:11.760 – 00:02:16.820] Please help me to set aside everything I think I know. [00:02:16.820 – 00:02:20.320] Open mind to a new experience. [00:02:20.320 – 00:02:21.860] Amen.

[00:02:21.860 – 00:02:21.950] Amen. [00:02:21.950 – 00:02:23.420] Thank you everyone. [00:02:23.420 – 00:02:33.480] We just have a few moment's silence, uh, gather our thoughts, reflect on why we're here and think of the alcoholics who are still struggling with alcoholism, who can't see the truth with alcohol, [00:02:33.480 – 00:02:34.980] and their family members of course. [00:02:34.980 – 00:02:44.900] Thank you everyone. [00:02:44.900 – 00:02:52.560] Okay, so w- we have six members, and I really appreciate you all jumping in here and doing this for us. [00:02:52.560 – 00:02:55.220] I'm, I'm sure I speak on behalf of all those present.

[00:02:55.220 – 00:02:56.040] Thank you very much. [00:02:56.040 – 00:02:57.720] Uh, so I've just got… [00:02:57.720 – 00:03:04.420] We've got Lynn H. first, and then we've got Andrea O., Kid R., Jay S., Joyce M., and Pat O'D. [00:03:04.420 – 00:03:07.530] And Lynn, thanks very much for agreeing to go first. [00:03:07.530 – 00:03:09.000] And, uh, Lynn is in Florida. [00:03:09.000 – 00:03:10.880] So with that, it's over to you, Lynn. [00:03:10.880 – 00:03:12.760] Thank you, David.

[00:03:12.760 – 00:03:14.860] Uh, appreciate you asking me. [00:03:14.860 – 00:03:16.480] Um, Dr. [00:03:16.480 – 00:03:25.520] Harry T., uh, says in AA Comes of Age that the reduced ego has marvelous recuperative powers. [00:03:25.520 – 00:03:35.560] And, um, my ego every so often, uh, gets resurrected, and one of the ways it manifests itself is I fancy myself as somewhat [00:03:35.560 – 00:03:40.300] of, uh, being, uh, well-informed on the history of AA. [00:03:40.300 – 00:03:50.380] And I came to that conclusion because all the books that I read about, and the first one was of course, uh, AA Comes of Age, which is, uh, a brief history [00:03:50.380 – 00:03:59.860] of AA starting out in, uh, 1957 and go, uh, in the summer of '34, and goes all the way up to, uh, '67 and '70.

[00:03:59.860 – 00:04:10.000] In the, uh, second and third edition it's called a brief history, and when you compare it with the, the thickness of the, of that book and [00:04:10.000 – 00:04:12.480] with Bill S.'s book, I can see why it's brief. [00:04:12.480 – 00:04:22.120] Uh, I also, um, became familiar with, uh, the 1975, uh, version of, um… [00:04:22.120 – 00:04:23.740] I'm sorry, the, um… [00:04:23.740 – 00:04:24.760] Wait a minute. [00:04:24.760 – 00:04:31.400] Got off, the 1975 version of, um, Robert T.'s book, uh, Bill W. [00:04:31.400 – 00:04:41.440] And then of course, the one I relied on for so long was Not G. by Ernie K., uh, which was, uh, thought to

[00:04:41.440 – 00:04:48.659] be really the first thoughtful historical account of Alcoholics Anonymous, uh, 'cause Ernie was a eminent h- uh, historian. [00:04:48.659 – 00:04:51.660] And then, uh, this book's not known by a lot of people. [00:04:51.660 – 00:04:54.539] It's, uh, Bill W., it's his, uh, first 40 years. [00:04:54.539 – 00:04:58.130] It's an autobiography, and that came out in, uh, 2000. [00:04:58.130 – 00:05:05.840] And then finally, Susan C.'s book that came out in, uh, 2004, um, My N. Is B.. [00:05:05.840 – 00:05:08.700] And then of course, I jumped on the… [00:05:08.700 – 00:05:18.640] when this, the original manuscript book came out, uh, uh, this, this is quite a, quite a challenge to, um, parse through that.

[00:05:18.640 – 00:05:20.630] So having gone- [00:05:20.752 – 00:05:21.272] Through all that. [00:05:21.272 – 00:05:31.492] I was aware of, um, you know, Bill's, uh, zealous salesmanship, the fact that he was a marketing genius, that he, [00:05:31.492 – 00:05:33.752] uh, was a philanderer of sorts. [00:05:33.752 – 00:05:44.072] Uh, that he actually, uh, died from, uh, alcoholism, nicotine alcoholism, uh, which is, which was his final, [00:05:44.072 – 00:05:46.212] final demise. [00:05:46.212 – 00:05:52.172] And that 10 days prior to his death, after all those years, you know, he was still asking for a whiskey.

[00:05:52.172 – 00:05:55.072] So I mean, he wasn't this exact saint in my mind. [00:05:55.072 – 00:06:01.032] Uh, I realized he had human, uh, uh, foibles just like most of us. [00:06:01.032 – 00:06:06.732] Uh, but nonetheless, never diminishing the contributions, uh, that he made. [00:06:06.732 – 00:06:08.172] And I was… [00:06:08.172 – 00:06:18.372] I loved what Aldous H., uh, the English writer and philosopher, uh, author of, uh, Brave N. World, it came out in 1932, uh, warning about the dangers [00:06:18.372 – 00:06:21.232] of technology, which most of which have come true. [00:06:21.232 – 00:06:31.312] Um, he said about Bill W., he was the greatest social architect of our times, and I, I tend to,

[00:06:31.312 – 00:06:34.072] um, tend to agree with that. [00:06:34.072 – 00:06:37.412] My initial reaction, uh, having… [00:06:37.412 – 00:06:46.292] as w- as I was going through writing The Big Book and sending it on the session was one of, uh, profound ambivalence. [00:06:46.292 – 00:06:52.152] You know, I had, uh, simultaneous contributing, uh, c- contradicting attitudes. [00:06:52.152 – 00:07:02.252] Uh, uh, i- on one end, it was an in-depth, very detailed history on my God, what S. went through, willing to talk about, willing to go to any lengths with [00:07:02.252 – 00:07:11.472] 9,000 footnotes and, and, and references and, uh, all of the, um, research he did in the archives and the documents he examined. [00:07:11.472 – 00:07:21.752] On the one hand, a great in-depth detailed history, and on the other hand, I felt it was kind of an expose, you know, revealing the deep dark secrets,

[00:07:21.752 – 00:07:24.332] uh, the, uh, underpinnings of AA. [00:07:24.332 – 00:07:30.492] Kind of, uh, maybe airing our dur- dirty laundry, and I didn't like that part of it. [00:07:30.492 – 00:07:37.272] But, um, so I, I was really, really, really, um, uh, ambivalent about it. [00:07:37.272 – 00:07:47.552] I, I finally came to, uh, to realize that Bill, uh, was what I like to say, uh, an [00:07:47.552 – 00:07:49.962] example of an imperfect master. [00:07:49.962 – 00:07:58.592] You know, there are other imperfect masters that s- many of whom were in the Bible and other great books, uh, over the centuries. [00:07:58.592 – 00:08:09.052] I, um, I kinda rebelled when I learned, uh, that, uh, Bill was not exactly

[00:08:09.052 – 00:08:19.232] what one would call, um, an accurate historian in terms of details, that he tended to, uh, uh, dramatize [00:08:19.232 – 00:08:22.411] and of course, that was his marketing genius. [00:08:22.411 – 00:08:24.612] I mean, he was unbelievable. [00:08:24.612 – 00:08:29.432] I w- I was not aware of the importance of Hank P.. [00:08:29.432 – 00:08:31.732] I, I, I, I, I knew about Hank. [00:08:31.732 – 00:08:42.092] I knew that Bill wrote the book at, at his desk, um, uh, in his Newark office, uh, P., but I didn't know the importance [00:08:42.092 – 00:08:42.512] of Bill.

[00:08:42.512 – 00:08:52.992] And I didn't understand, um, as Bill S. has pointed out, uh, the, the, the minimal of almost, uh, negligible [00:08:52.992 – 00:08:54.452] role that, uh, Dr. [00:08:54.452 – 00:08:57.732] Bob played and, and, and the Akron folks in writing The Big Book. [00:08:57.732 – 00:08:57.992] That… [00:08:57.992 – 00:09:00.471] th- those were all, all new concepts to me. [00:09:00.471 – 00:09:10.552] Uh, I kind of, uh, recoiled when I found out that on page 12 of The Big Book, you know, I've been citing for years to [00:09:10.552 – 00:09:20.592] my sponsees, "Think how important it was when Ebby said, 'Bill, why don't you choose your own conception of God?'" And then I come to learn Ebby never

[00:09:20.592 – 00:09:21.092] said that. [00:09:21.092 – 00:09:26.372] In fact, Hank P. put in those four paragraphs on page 12. [00:09:26.372 – 00:09:29.302] Now, I'm not gonna tell my sponsees that, you know? [00:09:29.302 – 00:09:33.712] I don't want to get into all these controversies and who said what when, because it's not important. [00:09:33.712 – 00:09:35.682] The cons- the, the… [00:09:35.682 – 00:09:38.032] that, that concept is so pivotal, so important. [00:09:38.032 – 00:09:45.072] In all my years in AA, the one big obstacle newcomers have and other folks is the so-called God thing.

[00:09:45.072 – 00:09:52.232] And had that not been in that Big Book as if Ebby had said it, we might not be where we are today. [00:09:52.232 – 00:09:55.732] So I'm gonna continue with the story as if Ebby said it. [00:09:55.732 – 00:10:01.512] I don't wanna get into any, uh, any doubts about it or any confusion. [00:10:01.512 – 00:10:12.252] So I just, um, uh, and every weekend I learn something new, uh, that, that ambivalence resurfaces again, and I, um, [00:10:12.252 – 00:10:13.112] I'm dealing with it. [00:10:13.112 – 00:10:17.412] It's, uh, it's, it's a ying and a yang kinda thing. [00:10:17.412 – 00:10:21.392] It's this great in-depth history, but jeez, do we have to learn all this stuff?

[00:10:21.392 – 00:10:26.272] And, and, uh, is it re- how is it gonna really affect my program? [00:10:26.272 – 00:10:34.192] I, I'm, you know, I'm, uh, I- I'm going back to the principles, uh, before personalities and, and that helps me a lot. [00:10:34.192 – 00:10:38.572] Uh, thanks for asking me, David, and thank you for letting me share, guys and gals. [00:10:38.572 – 00:10:39.062] Wow. [00:10:39.062 – 00:10:39.952] That was superb. [00:10:39.952 – 00:10:41.141] Please unmute if you'd like to- [00:10:41.392 – 00:10:41.872] Acknowledge.

[00:10:41.872 – 00:10:42.872] Lynn, uh, thank you. [00:10:42.872 – 00:10:44.372] That was great Great job. [00:10:44.372 – 00:10:44.801] Excellent. [00:10:44.801 – 00:10:45.492] Wow. [00:10:45.492 – 00:10:46.211] That was great. [00:10:46.211 – 00:10:48.512] Fabulous. [00:10:48.512 – 00:10:48.522] That's great.

[00:10:48.522 – 00:10:49.122] Thanks for mentioning. [00:10:49.122 – 00:10:50.472] Excellent job. [00:10:50.472 – 00:10:50.702] Very good, Lynn. [00:10:50.702 – 00:10:51.232] Thank you. [00:10:51.232 – 00:10:52.552] Very good, Lynn. [00:10:52.552 – 00:10:54.392] It was awesome, man. [00:10:54.392 – 00:10:54.502] Thank you.

[00:10:54.502 – 00:10:58.192] It seems you read the, uh, speaker's pamphlet on brief. [00:10:58.192 – 00:11:07.732] Lynn, Lynn, Lynn is gonna begin, uh, sharing with us soon in the July the 4th on alcoholism, is it really a disease, and if so, so what? [00:11:07.732 – 00:11:09.372] Lynn, thanks. [00:11:09.372 – 00:11:10.302] Yeah, that's July the 4th. [00:11:10.302 – 00:11:10.892] Thank you, Lynn. [00:11:10.892 – 00:11:12.112] That was wonderful. [00:11:12.112 – 00:11:14.252] Uh, now again, we're going to go…

[00:11:14.252 – 00:11:20.572] we're going over to Andrea O., another member who's been with us a lo- for a lot of the readings of the chapters. [00:11:20.572 – 00:11:20.842] Lynn. [00:11:20.842 – 00:11:22.702] Uh, Andrea, you there? [00:11:22.702 – 00:11:24.862] I am, uh, good evening. [00:11:24.862 – 00:11:25.612] Lovely to see you. [00:11:25.612 – 00:11:26.872] Thank you very much for this. [00:11:26.872 – 00:11:27.572] Appreciate it.

[00:11:27.572 – 00:11:29.552] And Andrea's in Seattle. [00:11:29.552 – 00:11:30.522] Yes, I am. [00:11:30.522 – 00:11:31.652] Over to you, Andrea. [00:11:31.652 – 00:11:34.552] And we miss having Lynn here in Seattle. [00:11:34.552 – 00:11:35.232] It's good to… [00:11:35.232 – 00:11:38.572] It's nice to see you there, nice to be seen in these meetings. [00:11:38.572 – 00:11:48.972] Um, thank you for the opportunity to share and for the opportunity it gave me to reflect on, um, why I'm so, like, excited about the book and have enjoyed,

[00:11:48.972 – 00:11:50.532] uh, these Thursday meetings. [00:11:50.532 – 00:11:57.132] I'm now going through the book with a sponsee and looking forward to, uh, recruiting more sp- you know. [00:11:57.132 – 00:12:02.432] When I'm done, what I'm currently involved with, with some other sponsees, having them read that too. [00:12:02.432 – 00:12:13.712] Uh, but I really appreciate it, like, for me reflecting on, you know, why, and, and, um, Lynn kind of pointed to that, that I [00:12:13.712 – 00:12:23.872] know one reas- thing I did not want to happen about, um, buying yet another historical book and reading it, 'cause I've, uh, read many and I hang around with, um, uh, many [00:12:23.872 – 00:12:26.652] people here in the area I, um, have been in. [00:12:26.652 – 00:12:29.772] I've, I've lived pretty much in Seattle my entire sobriety.

[00:12:29.772 – 00:12:39.832] But a lot of the people I hang out with, um, care about the AA history, and so I've heard, um, some good, helpful stuff about Hank P. and a little bit about Oxford [00:12:39.832 – 00:12:41.732] groups and that sort of thing along the way. [00:12:41.732 – 00:12:50.752] But I'll tell you, I, I knew, I knew that I didn't want to become some AA smarty pants when it comes to AA history. [00:12:50.752 – 00:12:52.332] That's not, that's not why. [00:12:52.332 – 00:12:56.472] I mean, so that's one reason why, like in terms of the why not. [00:12:56.472 – 00:13:05.472] Um, you know, I don't think there's any AA Jeopardy game that I'm gonna be on so I can win a lot of money if I know all the, all the statistics and stuff. [00:13:05.472 – 00:13:07.572] Lynn pointed to this.

[00:13:07.572 – 00:13:17.892] I mean, for me it has really, uh, deepened my understanding, but really my appreciation for what Bill and the early folks [00:13:17.892 – 00:13:25.632] saw and what they'd experienced and how they tried to put it down, uh, on pa- they, they got all excited about writing a book. [00:13:25.632 – 00:13:35.732] And I just appreciate, um, kind of the curtain, it feels like the curtain getting pulled back so that we see more through the correspondence in what Bill, [00:13:35.732 – 00:13:45.812] um, S. has put in his book of what they were wrestling with and what they saw clearly and what they were kind of a little fuzzy on. [00:13:45.812 – 00:13:56.172] And that's really helped me, uh, deepen my appreciation and my own personal experience about what am I clear on in terms of my grounding and understanding about the solution [00:13:56.172 – 00:14:00.532] that Alcoholics Anonymous has brought about in my life, and that matters a lot. [00:14:00.532 – 00:14:01.012] I'm an…

[00:14:01.012 – 00:14:04.232] I'm the kind of alcoholic that I drank again no matter what. [00:14:04.232 – 00:14:10.412] You know, I really needed something to happen, uh, not by me and from me, but, you know, to me. [00:14:10.412 – 00:14:20.051] And so, um, the principles that Bill points to kind of over and over and over again are of extreme ins- in, uh, interest to me. [00:14:20.051 – 00:14:29.852] I think a lot of people that are joining us today that I've met in, in this room every Thursday, um, often have, you know, a, a chunk of time under their belt, as I like to put it. [00:14:29.852 – 00:14:39.652] And you may have had the experience that I have had, which, um, I've seen people do, and I, I guess I've had it personally too, so it's not just other folks. [00:14:39.652 – 00:14:43.832] I've experienced this too, where I kind of moved into check, what I call checkmark sobriety. [00:14:43.832 – 00:14:44.632] Yeah, I've done that.

[00:14:44.632 – 00:14:45.352] Okay, I've done that. [00:14:45.352 – 00:14:46.392] Yeah, okay, I've done that. [00:14:46.392 – 00:14:48.551] And now I should have this, and now I'm okay. [00:14:48.551 – 00:14:58.972] And, and just there's no, um, there was no real appreciation for, uh, the ripple effect of these spiritual principles [00:14:58.972 – 00:15:09.032] and the growth, like the Big Book uses the phrase, um, "to perfect and enlarge our spiritual lives." And, uh, I spent some time and saw other people spend some time [00:15:09.032 – 00:15:16.452] without any interest in that, just going to meetings, collecting coins, you know, saying the right thing, people applauding, whatever, it's all good, it's all good. [00:15:16.452 – 00:15:22.792] But what I saw after being here for a long time is some folks were, uh, drinking and dying.

[00:15:22.792 – 00:15:31.892] Again, they would drink again and, and some folks, um, did not come back, and, and they looked like they were just doing everything right. [00:15:31.892 – 00:15:38.172] And I, uh, hit bottom, you know, in AA after a, a decade-plus of sobriety. [00:15:38.172 – 00:15:45.002] And, um, and I really had to, like, let a lot of junk fall away. [00:15:45.002 – 00:15:48.712] A lot like Bill S. has brought this up, it's true for me too. [00:15:48.712 – 00:15:51.912] A lot of the junk around just go to meetings and don't drink in between meetings. [00:15:51.912 – 00:16:01.942] I mean, I kind of thought that was the way to go for the first f- So that was one of many things that, that just it seems like AA throughout the years has- [00:16:02.074 – 00:16:12.104] how I see it now, has accumulated some funny customs, some funny ways of seeing things and doing things that seem to be AA-ish, but

[00:16:12.104 – 00:16:22.144] a little away from the core, basic, uh, spiritual principles which Bill is trying to point us to, and, and that we get, that I get [00:16:22.144 – 00:16:25.284] a deeper understanding of, of in his book. [00:16:25.284 – 00:16:27.504] Um, I hope I'm making some sense. [00:16:27.504 – 00:16:30.484] But, uh, that's why. [00:16:30.484 – 00:16:40.584] That's kinda why I got so interested in gaining a deeper understanding of what, what was going on in Bill W.'s head and in the other people around him, and to [00:16:40.584 – 00:16:50.884] dismantle and let go of some of those old ideas that I didn't realize were, um, tripping me up, and tripping up people I sponsor, and, and tripping up, [00:16:50.884 – 00:16:52.704] you know, people around me and in my home group.

[00:16:52.704 – 00:16:55.584] And, uh, this has kind of allowed me to do that. [00:16:55.584 – 00:16:58.204] Like, the notion of, um, uh… [00:16:58.204 – 00:17:08.324] Well, like, two things have become clear, have kind of come alive for me, um, in the last about, I'd say, um, 10, 10-ish years ago when [00:17:08.324 – 00:17:18.364] I had a sh- a big shift, which was, uh, page 13 of the Big Book, and the- our 12 steps are found there really, and I love [00:17:18.364 – 00:17:19.264] taking people there. [00:17:19.264 – 00:17:26.964] And, and that meant a lot to me to finally see that after probably reading page 13 many dozens of times over the previous decades. [00:17:26.964 – 00:17:33.604] So I love that when something new comes up, and of course we talk about that, uh, from Bill S.'s book.

[00:17:33.604 – 00:17:43.764] And then the other thing that I got kinda suspicious of was this six step program before the 12 steps, and I would read the book, um, Experience, Strength and Hope, [00:17:43.764 – 00:17:49.084] which are all the stories that got yanked out of the book every time it went from first edition to second edition. [00:17:49.084 – 00:17:54.804] And I thought, "Why do none of those people talk that are in the first edition before the 12 steps were written? [00:17:54.804 – 00:17:56.744] Why do none…" Zero. [00:17:56.744 – 00:18:04.704] Zero of those people have say like, "Gee, I sure struggled with that second step of the six step- steps that we have." No one mentioned… [00:18:04.704 – 00:18:09.084] None of them just don't come up, and I thought, "Something's fishy here about that," you know? [00:18:09.084 – 00:18:18.584] So it just feels good to let go of a lot of old ideas, um, and then turn to what really matters.

[00:18:18.584 – 00:18:23.844] Uh, what p- what, and that, what matters to me is what Bill is trying to point to. [00:18:23.844 – 00:18:33.164] Not just the words, but what he's trying to get us to see, 'cause that's what he saw, and that mattered to him, 'cause he's a hopeless alcoholic like I am or was. [00:18:33.164 – 00:18:37.604] You know, I have hope now, but very interested in that, and continue to be. [00:18:37.604 – 00:18:39.804] So thanks for the opportunity to share. [00:18:39.804 – 00:18:41.074] And I don't know. [00:18:41.074 – 00:18:42.804] Uh, thank you, Andrea O. [00:18:42.804 – 00:18:43.744] From Seattle.

[00:18:43.744 – 00:18:43.854] Yeah. [00:18:43.854 – 00:18:47.264] Please unmute again if you'd like to acknowledge Andrea. [00:18:47.264 – 00:18:47.834] Thank you, Andrea. [00:18:47.834 – 00:18:50.304] Thank you. [00:18:50.304 – 00:18:51.294] Thank you, Andrea. [00:18:51.294 – 00:18:51.295] We appreciate it. [00:18:51.295 – 00:18:51.296] Thank you.

[00:18:51.296 – 00:18:51.924] Thank you, Andrea. [00:18:51.924 – 00:18:53.234] Thank you, Andrea. [00:18:53.234 – 00:18:53.494] Thanks, Andrea. [00:18:53.494 – 00:18:54.584] That was really great. [00:18:54.584 – 00:18:56.484] Brilliant. [00:18:56.484 – 00:18:57.564] Thank you, Andrea. [00:18:57.564 – 00:19:01.184] And we're gonna stay in Seattle now, and we're gonna go over to Kit R.

[00:19:01.184 – 00:19:02.304] Lovely to see you, Kit. [00:19:02.304 – 00:19:03.414] Uh- Thank you … [00:19:03.414 – 00:19:04.204] all, all yours. [00:19:04.204 – 00:19:05.284] I'm an alcoholic. [00:19:05.284 – 00:19:05.804] Hi, Kit. [00:19:05.804 – 00:19:09.344] And thank you very much for the honor and the privilege of being a part of this group. [00:19:09.344 – 00:19:10.464] I really enjoy this group.

[00:19:10.464 – 00:19:15.384] It's my favorite day of the week now, and coming to hear from all of you, and, and, uh, see… [00:19:15.384 – 00:19:21.484] You know, David, you're a great moderator, and Jim W.'s so excellent with the Q&A, and then we have the topic meeting discussion after all that. [00:19:21.484 – 00:19:25.504] So I learn so much from the sharing of all of you guys as well as from this book. [00:19:25.504 – 00:19:35.764] Um, I loved last week, I think it was last week, that Bill S. was saying, you know, he was talking about the seminal moment when Bill was pacing in the hallway of Mayflower H., the bar [00:19:35.764 – 00:19:41.864] where I might get a ginger ale and strike up a conversation with somebody, or the, you know, the, the church directory. [00:19:41.864 – 00:19:52.264] And it doesn't even matter to me who gave him the phone number of Reverend T., whether it was slipped into his pocket from, uh, you know, w- when, when the Oxford Group guys, or whether he actually saw it on the church directory and called him. [00:19:52.264 – 00:19:52.924] That's not important.

[00:19:52.924 – 00:19:55.184] The fact is that he did the right thing. [00:19:55.184 – 00:19:57.914] You know, he did the thing which actually led us to being here today. [00:19:57.914 – 00:20:02.904] So I really love that whole perspective too, because in AA history, I love AA history. [00:20:02.904 – 00:20:03.264] Hold on. [00:20:03.264 – 00:20:04.644] He's gonna get rid of the phone. [00:20:04.644 – 00:20:11.944] Um, I love AA history, and I, you know, i- in, in a word, I see the hand of God in AA, whether it's providence or whatever you wanna call it. [00:20:11.944 – 00:20:15.064] I am so grateful for how this came around.

[00:20:15.064 – 00:20:18.284] Studying this is like, it's, it's unbelievable that this got off the ground. [00:20:18.284 – 00:20:18.644] Yeah. [00:20:18.644 – 00:20:25.304] Seeing how every single, you know, denial and, and every great idea that got quashed, and failure here and failure there. [00:20:25.304 – 00:20:28.724] Bill couldn't get any money to save his life to write this book. [00:20:28.724 – 00:20:32.844] And I'm so grateful that that all happened, because it's what gave us our traditions. [00:20:32.844 – 00:20:36.704] If any of those things had come through, it could've been detrimental for us. [00:20:36.704 – 00:20:42.824] So I, I'm just really seeing how divinely inspired this thing seems to be to me anyway, in my perspective.

[00:20:42.824 – 00:20:45.774] Um, how hard it was to get everything off the ground. [00:20:45.774 – 00:20:52.054] One thing that actually got me to come here, and it's, I loved, uh, also what, um, what A- Andrea was just saying too. [00:20:52.054 – 00:21:02.184] I didn't wanna be an AA smarty pants, but I did have a guy in our home group who, who, i- in our Big Book study happen to say, "Oh, I was really depressed when I found out Bill didn't write the Big Book." And I thought, "What?" [00:21:02.184 – 00:21:10.324] You know, "That's not what I think." And I thought, "I better get my facts straight." So it just happened that you guys came out, and I said, "I'm gonna go," and I invited him, and he came to one too, so. [00:21:10.324 – 00:21:11.364] He only came to one though. [00:21:11.364 – 00:21:17.124] But anyway, it helped me to get that, you know, faith back in my heart that, yes, Bill wrote the book. [00:21:17.124 – 00:21:19.164] Yes, these are his, his, his ideas.

[00:21:19.164 – 00:21:22.453] Yes, it's his voice, and yeah, he had, you know, editorial help at the end, but- [00:21:22.824 – 00:21:25.804] He quashed so many of the things that Hank P. wanted in there. [00:21:25.804 – 00:21:32.424] Thank G. he didn't quash that one about, you know, why don't you choose your own conception of God, because that really helped me get sober. [00:21:32.424 – 00:21:34.844] Um, I also loved what Lynn was saying too. [00:21:34.844 – 00:21:35.424] I got that… [00:21:35.424 – 00:21:35.844] The… [00:21:35.844 – 00:21:45.344] My husband gave me this book, uh, Writing the Big Book, for my Christmas present, and also the, the book that started it all, that great big red one, and that was, again, my commitment to getting in here.

[00:21:45.344 – 00:21:51.884] I'm a recently retired schoolteacher, and I love history, but now I have the time to study the history that I really love. [00:21:51.884 – 00:21:53.664] I forgot to start my clock, you guys. [00:21:53.664 – 00:21:53.984] I'm sorry. [00:21:53.984 – 00:21:55.764] I probably have about five minutes left, do you think? [00:21:55.764 – 00:21:56.284] Okay. [00:21:56.284 – 00:21:57.764] So can you put it to five, honey? [00:21:57.764 – 00:22:01.224] Anyway, um, I don't wanna go over and, and s- uh, steal anybody's time.

[00:22:01.224 – 00:22:07.824] But I love what Lynn was saying too about Aldous H., you know, the greatest social archivit- ar- architect of all ti- of our current time. [00:22:07.824 – 00:22:09.424] I read that also. [00:22:09.424 – 00:22:18.664] But the things that I really discovered from this study and from this book is, is, you know, we talked about in a general way before, but learning what a myth creator Bill was. [00:22:18.664 – 00:22:19.164] And again, he… [00:22:19.164 – 00:22:20.424] That great salesmanship. [00:22:20.424 – 00:22:22.564] He wanted to get this thing off the ground. [00:22:22.564 – 00:22:24.324] He believed in his vision.

[00:22:24.324 – 00:22:24.964] He believed… [00:22:24.964 – 00:22:26.963] You know, the fact that he want… [00:22:26.963 – 00:22:34.824] His first thought in the hospital bed after his white light experience was, "I can help other people." I mean, that wasn't my first thought when I got a couple moments sober. [00:22:34.824 – 00:22:37.904] So again, I just, I'm very thankful for all that. [00:22:37.904 – 00:22:42.044] But that he was wanting this so much that he, he, he was… [00:22:42.044 – 00:22:48.163] You know, he came up with the, with the idea of the book and kept pursuing it even with constant, constant, constant failure. [00:22:48.163 – 00:22:53.474] Um, so anyway, it, it's just a, it's really heartening for me to see all this.

[00:22:53.474 – 00:23:03.484] And, uh, bringing it back to Bill S., that he spent seven years of research and documenting and, and file searching and, and combing through [00:23:03.484 – 00:23:05.324] the stuff and, and to get this book. [00:23:05.324 – 00:23:06.864] And I'm married to an archivist. [00:23:06.864 – 00:23:13.484] I know, uh, I'm aware of how arduous some of this preservation stuff can even be, you know, just documenting, pouring things. [00:23:13.484 – 00:23:16.424] And, and that he did this for seven years, and all the places he went. [00:23:16.424 – 00:23:16.844] I… [00:23:16.844 – 00:23:18.243] It sounds thrilling to me.

[00:23:18.243 – 00:23:20.884] You know, probably a lot of my people in my home group wouldn't think it's thrilling. [00:23:20.884 – 00:23:25.684] But I would love to do that someday if, if I had, you know, proper money and motivation there. [00:23:25.684 – 00:23:29.344] But, um, I love that he did all that and he presented it for us. [00:23:29.344 – 00:23:32.084] I can trust these, these research facts. [00:23:32.084 – 00:23:39.704] And, and I feel confident now in some of these things, um, not to be, again, an AA smarty pants, but at least to stand up to somebody in my home group who says Bill didn't write the book. [00:23:39.704 – 00:23:41.304] So I've got that much going on. [00:23:41.304 – 00:23:45.964] Um, anyway, I love this, uh, Writing the Big Book study, uh, study group.

[00:23:45.964 – 00:23:50.444] I love being able to share with each of you and hear contributions from each of you each week. [00:23:50.444 – 00:23:55.684] Um, and like I'd already mentioned, you know, the, the Q&A afterwards, and then, and then the topic discussion after that. [00:23:55.684 – 00:23:59.304] It allows me to get in touch with you all as humans too. [00:23:59.304 – 00:24:07.664] And, uh, and Riley K, ex- you know, foot reader, uh, footnote extraordinaire reader, and, um, you know, see, you know, seeing and hearing from all of you. [00:24:07.664 – 00:24:14.824] Anyway, the one thing I also want to mention too is I know coming on after me is Jay S., and, uh, Jay did a wonderful presentation. [00:24:14.824 – 00:24:20.924] My husband did the National AA Archives W. at our old home in, in Southern C. in, uh, 2009. [00:24:20.924 – 00:24:27.724] And Jay and Gail came out and gave an excellent AA history, um, presentation, which sparked, again, my love for AA history.

[00:24:27.724 – 00:24:29.544] I had read AA Comes of Age. [00:24:29.544 – 00:24:30.424] I had read Dr. [00:24:30.424 – 00:24:31.594] Bob and the Good O.-Timers. [00:24:31.594 – 00:24:39.824] I had read a lot of these things, but until this book, I really didn't get into so much more of the details that, that, that are really encouraging me. [00:24:39.824 – 00:24:46.504] Um, last, I will close off with the Hank P. thing, is I had no idea how important he was. [00:24:46.504 – 00:24:49.724] Without H., no AA, no Big Book for sure. [00:24:49.724 – 00:24:56.764] And you know, but that, you know, it's, it's so sad, you know, that he, you know, he's like the forgotten, the forgotten founder.

[00:24:56.764 – 00:25:04.264] And, um, you know, and then also learning, like Lynn had also commented, how, uh, um, little participation Dr. [00:25:04.264 – 00:25:05.923] Bob had had in all this, you know? [00:25:05.923 – 00:25:12.004] So, um, you know, it was after the fact he was b- you know, brought in as a founder, as a co-founder. [00:25:12.004 – 00:25:20.704] So, um, anyway, I think I'm running out of time, but I want to thank you all for, for participating and letting me participate with you each week. [00:25:20.704 – 00:25:23.904] I love you all, and thank you for the honor of calling on me, David. [00:25:23.904 – 00:25:26.024] Thank you, Kit. [00:25:26.024 – 00:25:26.154] Thanks, Kit.

[00:25:26.154 – 00:25:27.224] That was wonderful. [00:25:27.224 – 00:25:27.294] Great job. [00:25:27.294 – 00:25:29.964] Please unmute again if you'd like to acknowledge her. [00:25:29.964 – 00:25:32.994] Thanks. [00:25:32.994 – 00:25:32.995] Thanks, Kit. [00:25:32.995 – 00:25:33.134] Thank you. [00:25:33.134 – 00:25:33.844] Thank you so much.

[00:25:33.844 – 00:25:34.854] Thank you. [00:25:34.854 – 00:25:35.404] Great job. [00:25:35.404 – 00:25:35.964] Excellent. [00:25:35.964 – 00:25:36.584] Thanks, Kit. [00:25:36.584 – 00:25:37.424] Thank you. [00:25:37.424 – 00:25:39.854] Thank you, everyone. [00:25:39.854 – 00:25:41.964] I just got some messages from some people who are new.

[00:25:41.964 – 00:25:46.864] If you're new to this meeting, we normally read a chapter, but this week we're just kind of share Bill… [00:25:46.864 – 00:25:48.824] Bill S., the author, is not with us this week. [00:25:48.824 – 00:25:54.204] He will be back next week by the grace of God, and we will go back to reading and getting the Q&A with Bill S.. [00:25:54.204 – 00:26:01.644] This week we're doing some experiences of some members who have read the book and have a broadened their view of Alcoholics Anonymous and its creation. [00:26:01.644 – 00:26:03.824] I am delighted always to have Mr. [00:26:03.824 – 00:26:06.084] S. in, in the, in the room. [00:26:06.084 – 00:26:08.644] Jay S. in Sedona.

[00:26:08.644 – 00:26:10.164] Wonderful to see you, Jay. [00:26:10.164 – 00:26:10.964] Over to you. [00:26:10.964 – 00:26:13.084] Great to see you guys. [00:26:13.084 – 00:26:23.084] Um, so you know, uh, being that I go and give these history talks all over, and thank you everybody that's participated and can't wait to hear, [00:26:23.084 – 00:26:24.784] uh, all that's coming. [00:26:24.784 – 00:26:27.984] Um, one of the things I, uh… [00:26:27.984 – 00:26:31.624] You know those big ugly pictures of Bill and Bob that are at every convention?

[00:26:31.624 – 00:26:35.084] This is what I now take when I'm asked to speak. [00:26:35.084 – 00:26:37.464] I've got one of Hank. [00:26:37.464 – 00:26:43.224] I put it, I, I put it on the, the, the board- [00:26:43.356 – 00:26:46.036] Just like the ones you, you see at all the conventions if you can. [00:26:46.036 – 00:26:49.056] I go and put it up there just to, you know, mess with them. [00:26:49.056 – 00:26:52.836] So I think that's enough to, uh, that, that's all that I really got to say. [00:26:52.836 – 00:26:55.136] You know, Lynn really got, um…

[00:26:55.136 – 00:26:58.976] I don't think there's anybody that loves AA more than Lynn does. [00:26:58.976 – 00:27:01.876] I believe that with all my heart. [00:27:01.876 – 00:27:12.356] And, um, so as a historian, I [00:27:12.356 – 00:27:22.366] believe that if we don't say what our prejudice is upfront, that we are, um, that, that we're, we're really, [00:27:22.366 – 00:27:22.856] uh… [00:27:22.856 – 00:27:27.376] So anyway, my prejudice is that I'm allergic to fundamentalism in any form. [00:27:27.376 – 00:27:30.916] In any form whatsoever.

[00:27:30.916 – 00:27:41.136] And, you know, I've only, uh, well, not only, I bet there are a number of people here that like me, I mean, like, I think in another three or four months, [00:27:41.136 – 00:27:45.156] I'll be sober half of the existence of the fellowship. [00:27:45.156 – 00:27:55.856] Now, I'm not saying that, th- but, but just so that I've seen half of the work that AA has done, and [00:27:55.856 – 00:28:01.396] I've been a, a, a contributing member as best I can for, for, for all of them. [00:28:01.396 – 00:28:12.236] As human beings, we have the, um, we [00:28:12.236 – 00:28:16.976] have this desire for hierarchy and for deification. [00:28:16.976 – 00:28:27.216] And, um, and I believe that what that does is it takes away personal responsibility.

[00:28:27.216 – 00:28:37.446] Um, and that, um, every [00:28:37.446 – 00:28:47.656] time I sit down with somebody to, to listen to inventory, I remind them that if they are perfect, then I have to drink [00:28:47.656 – 00:28:50.436] because I'm not perfect. [00:28:50.436 – 00:29:00.516] And this idea that public figures need to be perfect, I'm sorry. [00:29:00.516 – 00:29:11.356] Um, but, uh, this idea that, uh, or that we need to impose [00:29:11.356 – 00:29:16.136] our modern sensibilities on somebody is, uh, something. [00:29:16.136 – 00:29:28.996] Now, so the reason that I, I kind of preface my, my, my quick remarks with, with that is that, um, I've

[00:29:28.996 – 00:29:39.466] just been given a, a profound responsibility, and I've been given access to the, to, um, information [00:29:39.466 – 00:29:43.606] that, uh, that could be very, very sensational. [00:29:43.606 – 00:29:53.676] That will really talk about all of W.'s interests that were [00:29:53.676 – 00:30:02.996] outside of Alcoholics Anonymous from ni- I, I say 1955 on, but really you can't, you can't do any. [00:30:02.996 – 00:30:09.536] But, but he gave Alcoholics Anonymous to Alcoholics Anonymous in '55, and he started to live his life. [00:30:09.536 – 00:30:13.716] And, uh, and we wouldn't let him. [00:30:13.716 – 00:30:17.336] Uh, we wanted the father figure.

[00:30:17.336 – 00:30:27.916] And, um, so it's going to be, it's, it's, it's the, the, the [00:30:27.916 – 00:30:38.856] responsibility to contextualize and tell a story accurately as my colleague, uh, Bill [00:30:38.856 – 00:30:39.896] S. has done. [00:30:39.896 – 00:30:48.756] And I believe my colleagues, uh, Kevin H. and, uh, and Dan C. did with the, uh, Bill W documentary, especially the NPR version. [00:30:48.756 – 00:30:56.736] Um, to at one hand, you don't wanna mess with the myth. [00:30:56.736 – 00:31:07.376] But on the other hand, that myth in the hands of people that have an agenda makes [00:31:07.376 – 00:31:09.996] AA the one thing that Bill never wanted it to be.

[00:31:09.996 – 00:31:16.496] And I believe that right now we very much are treating Alcoholics Anonymous as if it's a religion. [00:31:16.496 – 00:31:19.156] We have a sacred text. [00:31:19.156 – 00:31:22.156] We have a venerated, uh, leader. [00:31:22.156 – 00:31:32.376] We have places that we go for, uh, uh, you know, we, for pilgrimage, and all of these things are, uh, [00:31:32.376 – 00:31:32.676] are that. [00:31:32.676 – 00:31:42.756] I mean, I got to spend three days at, at, uh, Stepping S. this week, um, in ways that I, [00:31:42.756 – 00:31:51.596] I, I just, I just hope that I'm able to communicate from my heart how dear it was to be a- actually able to meditate in the spook room.

[00:31:51.596 – 00:31:59.776] Again, I've, I've done it before, but I've never been able to just be in there by myself and, uh, to spend time in Whit's End and the like. [00:31:59.776 – 00:32:03.256] But, but when it gets down to it, you know, um- [00:32:07.156 – 00:32:12.436] For instance, I'm as big a feminist as anybody, I believe. [00:32:12.436 – 00:32:21.336] And, uh, I made the mistake of reading the definition of a mistress. [00:32:21.336 – 00:32:31.716] And a mistress is a person, is, is a love, is, is a participant in a love relationship [00:32:31.716 – 00:32:35.436] that is n- that's long-term and is known by all three people. [00:32:35.436 – 00:32:48.176] This idea that somehow, uh, being

[00:32:48.176 – 00:32:50.236] involved with other people is duplicitous. [00:32:50.236 – 00:33:02.176] Us, our, our, our, our, our desire to, um, uh, to [00:33:02.176 – 00:33:12.696] moralize that which I cannot live up to, or, or do I desire to live up to, by the way, um, is, [00:33:12.696 – 00:33:13.816] is another thing. [00:33:13.816 – 00:33:16.636] And I could go on and on. [00:33:16.636 – 00:33:22.956] Um, uh, I got, I got another three minute, two minutes, so I'll, I'll do a little bit more, but… [00:33:22.956 – 00:33:33.256] My first years giving AA talks and, and using all the, all the secondary

[00:33:33.256 – 00:33:40.356] source literature that was available and all that stuff, I spent massive amounts of time telling people what Bill meant. [00:33:40.356 – 00:33:46.936] If you hear anybody ever try and explain what W. meant, run away. [00:33:46.936 – 00:33:54.936] Why do I say that? [00:33:54.936 – 00:34:05.086] I'll now have been able to read over 2,000 of this man's private letters, the person I admire more than [00:34:05.086 – 00:34:05.546] anybody. [00:34:05.546 – 00:34:14.415] Never once does he say, "Look on page seven, third paragraph, second sentence. [00:34:14.415 – 00:34:24.416] There's the answer to your problem." He never once recommends that somebody goes to this religious-like tome to discover the nature of their

[00:34:24.416 – 00:34:25.036] problems. [00:34:25.036 – 00:34:27.616] Unbelievable. [00:34:27.616 – 00:34:30.416] Unbelievable. [00:34:30.416 – 00:34:40.456] W. knew that Alcoholics Anonymous was a gift way beyond him, and he never [00:34:40.456 – 00:34:42.156] claimed responsibility for that. [00:34:42.156 – 00:34:44.366] And I'll close with this. [00:34:44.366 – 00:34:52.596] One of my favorite lines of his was, uh, well, a little, uh, personal thing.

[00:34:52.596 – 00:35:00.756] I quit going to business meetings in my home group for 20, and the reason was because I was the old guy, right? [00:35:00.756 – 00:35:10.776] Just by my posture, just by making the rat face, I could literally change, not, not because [00:35:10.776 – 00:35:12.796] I wanted to, but I could change a vote. [00:35:12.796 – 00:35:18.716] Alcoholics Anonymous is for people that are one to eight years sober. [00:35:18.716 – 00:35:20.036] That's what AA is for. [00:35:20.036 – 00:35:30.036] And the problem is we've gotten to the point, here's an opinion for you, where we're more interested in making old-timers, people with over 20 [00:35:30.036 – 00:35:36.736] years sober, comfortable than we are at taking the new person that's coming in and meeting them where they're at.

[00:35:36.736 – 00:35:47.456] W. said, and this, I'll close with this, one of my favorite lines of his, was that, um, hopefully [00:35:47.456 – 00:35:57.476] Alcoholics Anonymous will be spir- spiritualized enough that the old-timers will step away and let, uh, the movement [00:35:57.476 – 00:35:59.196] evolve at itself. [00:35:59.196 – 00:36:09.316] Um, this thing of making AA a religion, which, you know, there's only two places you say the Lord's Prayer in this country: [00:36:09.316 – 00:36:13.336] a Christian church and an AA meeting. [00:36:13.336 – 00:36:19.756] And you wonder why the courts say we're a, we're a religious movement, but I digress. [00:36:19.756 – 00:36:22.955] Anyway, S.'s a great guy.

[00:36:22.955 – 00:36:28.456] Uh, he's my second clo- you know, he's as close as anybody. [00:36:28.456 – 00:36:38.716] Uh, he's the one I tell the truth to before I call my sponsor, and, uh, that man is a lot more fun [00:36:38.716 – 00:36:46.376] and a lot more committed, believe it or not, than the book that he has gifted us with. [00:36:46.376 – 00:36:47.736] So, thanks for letting me in. [00:36:47.736 – 00:36:49.716] That's fantastic. [00:36:49.716 – 00:36:50.276] Thank you, Jay. [00:36:50.276 – 00:36:51.376] Please unmute again.

[00:36:51.376 – 00:36:52.226] Thank you, Jay. [00:36:52.226 – 00:36:52.246] Thank you. [00:36:52.246 – 00:36:53.156] Thank you, Jay. [00:36:53.156 – 00:36:53.826] Thanks for coming, Jay. [00:36:53.826 – 00:36:54.796] Thank you very much. [00:36:54.796 – 00:36:56.866] Thank you, Jay. [00:36:56.866 – 00:36:57.376] Awesome.

[00:36:57.376 – 00:36:58.496] Perfect. [00:36:58.496 – 00:36:59.196] Thank you, Jay. [00:36:59.196 – 00:36:59.996] Thanks, Jay. [00:36:59.996 – 00:37:00.476] Good job. [00:37:00.476 – 00:37:01.496] Wow. [00:37:01.496 – 00:37:02.436] Thank you, Jay. [00:37:02.436 – 00:37:03.336] Very interesting.

[00:37:03.336 – 00:37:05.936] Jay, just want to ask you, when your book coming out? [00:37:05.936 – 00:37:09.136] Before I do that, before that, when is your book coming out, Jay, on Bill W.? [00:37:09.136 – 00:37:14.756] Well, I, I'm meeting with my publisher this week. [00:37:14.756 – 00:37:24.486] Given that I just got access to an unprecedented treasure trove of material, I think it'll take me six weeks or six months to g- [00:37:24.677 – 00:37:27.548] get through and digest this, uh, stuff I've got. [00:37:27.548 – 00:37:31.228] So I'm pushing it off to the beginning of the year that it'll get to the publisher. [00:37:31.228 – 00:37:32.508] Now- Wow …

[00:37:32.508 – 00:37:35.608] it was gonna be May, but it, it ain't gonna happen. [00:37:35.608 – 00:37:40.148] I got, I got- Thanks for the update … [00:37:40.148 – 00:37:43.968] I got 777 files. [00:37:43.968 – 00:37:47.048] Se- Just, ah. [00:37:47.048 – 00:37:50.468] 777. [00:37:50.468 – 00:37:52.368] F- oh my god, Jim. [00:37:52.368 – 00:37:54.948] And you're going to, and you're doing, still carrying the message.

[00:37:54.948 – 00:37:55.288] Wonderful. [00:37:55.288 – 00:38:03.488] You're gonna be coming to, along to us in, uh, May, the 13th of May, and you're gonna be bringing with you Ward E., I believe, and you're gonna do some, you're gonna interview him. [00:38:03.488 – 00:38:05.368] Is that right, Jim? [00:38:05.368 – 00:38:06.888] Yep. [00:38:06.888 – 00:38:07.938] You're managing. [00:38:07.938 – 00:38:08.608] Yeah, I will be. [00:38:08.608 – 00:38:09.128] Yeah.

[00:38:09.128 – 00:38:15.988] Yeah, if you haven't, if you haven't read Ward's book about, uh, Spirituality W. Religion, it's, uh, it's fantastic. [00:38:15.988 – 00:38:18.288] And we'll be, we'll be talking about that. [00:38:18.288 – 00:38:22.228] Ward, uh, was the, uh, the man of- I just gotta, yeah. [00:38:22.228 – 00:38:23.728] Sorry, Jim. [00:38:23.728 – 00:38:24.568] I just took it down. [00:38:24.568 – 00:38:26.368] I'm, I'm trying to enlarge it. [00:38:26.368 – 00:38:27.548] Someone asked me to enlarge it.

[00:38:27.548 – 00:38:28.348] There you go, Jim. [00:38:28.348 – 00:38:29.228] Yeah. [00:38:29.228 – 00:38:32.947] So anyway, um, I don't know what S.'s doing. [00:38:32.947 – 00:38:36.068] Oh, but when he- Oh, that's, uh, uh, no, so that's, that's, that's the next week. [00:38:36.068 – 00:38:39.028] Pat, Pat, uh, Pat O. is gonna do a presentation for us. [00:38:39.028 – 00:38:40.788] That's just on myself, this is. [00:38:40.788 – 00:38:41.278] Beautiful.

[00:38:41.278 – 00:38:44.528] Uh, but you're, you're coming the 20th of, um, May. [00:38:44.528 – 00:38:47.228] Are you coming with your daughter still or are you going to do a different talk? [00:38:47.228 – 00:38:49.448] No, I, I think we'll do, we'll see. [00:38:49.448 – 00:38:52.228] I, I, I'm thinking we'll do, uh, she's too busy. [00:38:52.228 – 00:38:55.308] She's fabulous. [00:38:55.308 – 00:38:58.528] Um, I think I'm gonna do the Jungian thread. [00:38:58.528 – 00:39:01.798] Uh, we've got all kinds of new information about, uh- Jungian thread …

[00:39:01.798 – 00:39:04.668] the relations, the, the relation- Oh, we'll have some of that. [00:39:04.668 – 00:39:06.228] You can't back out on that now. [00:39:06.228 – 00:39:07.128] We want some of that. [00:39:07.128 – 00:39:09.848] We definitely want some of that. [00:39:09.848 – 00:39:09.898] Yeah. [00:39:09.898 – 00:39:11.528] The Jungian thread, you heard it here. [00:39:11.528 – 00:39:14.128] We're gonna have Jay S., the Jungian thread.

[00:39:14.128 – 00:39:24.148] And just for those who are out, B, uh, Jim W. is gonna do a presentation sh- after the next two speakers, and about 20, 25 minutes, and he's gonna do a presentation on [00:39:24.148 – 00:39:26.528] Writing the Big Book: The Creation of AA. [00:39:26.528 – 00:39:32.358] Bill W.- Bill W., his story, versus Bill S., history. [00:39:32.358 – 00:39:34.147] So we're looking forward to that. [00:39:34.147 – 00:39:36.428] Now, we're going up to Toronto, I believe. [00:39:36.428 – 00:39:37.588] Now, Jay, that was wonderful. [00:39:37.588 – 00:39:40.148] Thank you ever so much for agreeing to participate here.

[00:39:40.148 – 00:39:43.548] Uh, we're going up to east, east of Toronto, I believe we're going to now. [00:39:43.548 – 00:39:45.308] Is that right, uh, Joyce? [00:39:45.308 – 00:39:46.588] Hello, Joyce. [00:39:46.588 – 00:39:48.308] Hi, everyone. [00:39:48.308 – 00:39:54.608] Uh, Joyce, alcoholic, and, uh, I feel privileged to be here, to be with all of you people. [00:39:54.608 – 00:40:00.768] And, um, and I, I'm not gonna go cover over some of what's been said before. [00:40:00.768 – 00:40:06.688] Um, I'm just gonna tell you how I got involved in David's meeting and Bill's book, Writing the Big Book.

[00:40:06.688 – 00:40:13.048] Uh, Bill S. has opened my mind to learning about the history of our program. [00:40:13.048 – 00:40:14.968] I'll just keep it really simple about that. [00:40:14.968 – 00:40:19.588] Uh, I'll just tell you that I do have s- some of the books that Lynn referred to. [00:40:19.588 – 00:40:20.588] I have some of them. [00:40:20.588 – 00:40:30.648] But, uh, one of my friends who doesn't have as many 24 hours added up, but he was the first person that told me about, uh, Writing, [00:40:30.648 – 00:40:36.968] uh, the Big Book, and I have the hard copy because, like Kit, my husband bought me that book in 2020. [00:40:36.968 – 00:40:47.368] And, uh, but my friend Frank, who I've asked to come to this program because I knew he, I thought he would enjoy it, or to this meeting, sorry, he

[00:40:47.368 – 00:40:49.028] was, he's friends with Joe C. [00:40:49.028 – 00:40:53.748] and had started to go to Joe's, um, uh, uh, what do you call it? [00:40:53.748 – 00:40:56.868] Oh, I can't remember what the name of the group that they, um … [00:40:56.868 – 00:40:58.888] Freedom T. or something like that. [00:40:58.888 – 00:41:02.288] Anyway, and I've read this whole book, and I know that Jim W. [00:41:02.288 – 00:41:05.228] referred to this in a presentation he did just recently. [00:41:05.228 – 00:41:09.108] And, uh, so I want to tell you that, that I'm a bit of a slow reader.

[00:41:09.108 – 00:41:16.248] So when I got, um, Bill's book, this one, with all the end notes, and I loved it… [00:41:16.248 – 00:41:17.698] Anyway, sorry, getting ahead of myself. [00:41:17.698 – 00:41:23.248] I was given, um, so I found, first found out about the book about 2020. [00:41:23.248 – 00:41:27.288] Um, and I got my, my, my copy myself. [00:41:27.288 – 00:41:30.028] My husband bought that, um, that year later on. [00:41:30.028 – 00:41:40.068] And, um, but I didn't come to this meeting until September the 16th '21, and we were on chapter 23 [00:41:40.068 – 00:41:41.028] at that point in time.

[00:41:41.028 – 00:41:47.368] And like a good alcoholic, I thought to myself, "Oh my God, how did I miss being at the beginning of the book? [00:41:47.368 – 00:41:48.788] It would've really helped me. [00:41:48.788 – 00:41:57.308] Oh, no." And, um, you know, so I s- cried a little bit about it to myself, like how come, um, I wasn't involved in the beginning. [00:41:57.308 – 00:42:02.888] And then slowly, they weren't reading the, uh, footnotes by Riley, was it? [00:42:02.888 – 00:42:04.808] Well, she wasn't reading the footnotes at that time. [00:42:04.808 – 00:42:05.768] She might have been here. [00:42:05.768 – 00:42:15.788] Um, but David very kindly, as the year, the balance of the year wor- wore on, he said, "You know, how do you all feel about we'll, gonna start the meeting, uh,

[00:42:15.788 – 00:42:21.268] start the book again at the beginning of the year?" I think that's, I, I keep a little journal and I've got it written down there somewhere. [00:42:21.268 – 00:42:30.808] Listen, it, I can tell you that Bill S.'s book has been a revelation to me, and I have just eaten up and loved it. [00:42:30.808 – 00:42:34.267] And I've loved everyone that read every week. [00:42:34.267 – 00:42:37.488] I've learned something more and something better. [00:42:37.488 – 00:42:41.208] It's opened up, uh, a, just a wonderful … [00:42:41.208 – 00:42:45.138] You know, I've gone to Jim's workshops, and I think Jay- [00:42:45.348 – 00:42:47.988] Eve's workshop, um, Pat's workshop.

[00:42:47.988 – 00:42:53.868] And, you know, Drew and Hugh, I'm gonna miss somebody out so I'm gonna stop while I'm ahead of the game. [00:42:53.868 – 00:42:57.908] Um, and David, I want to thank you for putting this on. [00:42:57.908 – 00:43:04.667] Because without you, uh, being this nucleus for everybody, and you've got such an easy way to be within. [00:43:04.667 – 00:43:05.908] I feel so welcome, you know. [00:43:05.908 – 00:43:08.768] I feel really, really welcome about being here. [00:43:08.768 – 00:43:14.728] But I, I, I think that I, one of the blessed things that, uh, and it's just made me question it, it's been talked about. [00:43:14.728 – 00:43:22.068] I think Jay brought up something that I just asked a good old friend of mine who's passed away, he had 44 years of sobriety.

[00:43:22.068 – 00:43:23.168] And he was raised Catholic. [00:43:23.168 – 00:43:28.688] And I said, "How come we say the Lord's Prayer?" But I mean, this is after many 24 hours of sobriety myself. [00:43:28.688 – 00:43:35.408] It just, I just have enjoyed learning and opening up my mind to be taught new things. [00:43:35.408 – 00:43:40.308] I've no interest in bringing this to other people's attention if they're not interested. [00:43:40.308 – 00:43:50.648] I just feel, myself personally, that I feel blessed to have been exposed to this m- uh, meeting and exposed to this book because it's opened up a, just a, a wonderful venue [00:43:50.648 – 00:43:53.168] for me to learn more about our history. [00:43:53.168 – 00:44:03.388] And most of all, I think what impresses me of the humbleness of Bill S. is for him to be in attendance with us every week,

[00:44:03.388 – 00:44:04.998] and to take the question and answer. [00:44:04.998 – 00:44:09.148] And I just think that shows a great deal of humility in that person. [00:44:09.148 – 00:44:14.068] And, uh, always seems to be open if anybody points out a little thing that he's maybe not… [00:44:14.068 – 00:44:18.708] Anyway, he talks about that, that I think it's the fifth, um, printing of this book. [00:44:18.708 – 00:44:21.427] Oh gosh, I think I've got the first one, but I'm not really sure. [00:44:21.427 – 00:44:23.018] I was a bit excited because I'm… [00:44:23.018 – 00:44:30.828] Anyway, um, so you know, I think that shows to me that he, he just is excited about what he found.

[00:44:30.828 – 00:44:38.508] And I can't even wait for Jay to say like, "Oh my God," being exposed to, you know, all those letters and what maybe is to come. [00:44:38.508 – 00:44:45.698] And I think I just owe a great, a great deal of gratitude to being, being here every Thursday. [00:44:45.698 – 00:44:46.708] And I feel like everybody else. [00:44:46.708 – 00:44:47.608] I love my Thursday. [00:44:47.608 – 00:44:54.007] If anybody, if my daughter phones to say, "Babysitting," I say, "Oh no, I've got my, my, my Big Book, uh, my Writing the Big Book. [00:44:54.007 – 00:44:55.148] I can't miss that." You know. [00:44:55.148 – 00:44:59.668] I have missed a couple, but the great thing is I can listen to the recordings the next week.

[00:44:59.668 – 00:45:09.668] So if anybody's new, you could even go back in the recordings and hear the first time that these did the book and when Bill spoke himself, and tells you [00:45:09.668 – 00:45:10.788] a little bit about his own story. [00:45:10.788 – 00:45:18.088] I've s- I've since heard Bill talk about his story and, uh, very, I, I just love the way he talks about his wife and how much she… [00:45:18.088 – 00:45:19.508] Yeah, just great. [00:45:19.508 – 00:45:29.528] So I, I, I'm just coming from another point of view and I just feel that, uh, it's a privilege for, for me to be with all of you today, and I look forward to seeing you all next [00:45:29.528 – 00:45:29.728] week. [00:45:29.728 – 00:45:30.528] Thank you so much.

[00:45:30.528 – 00:45:33.228] Oh, Joyce, it's always a joy to see you. [00:45:33.228 – 00:45:34.268] Thank you very much. [00:45:34.268 – 00:45:34.988] Please unmute. [00:45:34.988 – 00:45:36.488] Thank you very much, Joyce. [00:45:36.488 – 00:45:37.128] Joy, thank you. [00:45:37.128 – 00:45:38.338] Love J.. [00:45:38.338 – 00:45:39.808] Love your enthusiasm.

[00:45:39.808 – 00:45:40.408] Thank you so much. [00:45:40.408 – 00:45:41.248] That was terrific. [00:45:41.248 – 00:45:42.248] Thank you, Joyce. [00:45:42.248 – 00:45:43.568] Thank you, Joyce. [00:45:43.568 – 00:45:44.778] Thanks, Joyce. [00:45:44.778 – 00:45:45.648] Kind words. [00:45:45.648 – 00:45:45.898] Very nice.

[00:45:45.898 – 00:45:47.388] Oh, that was wonderful, Joyce. [00:45:47.388 – 00:45:47.848] Thank you. [00:45:47.848 – 00:45:49.508] It's lovely to have met you on this Zoom. [00:45:49.508 – 00:45:53.898] Now we're going to, uh, I put up the recording details that Joyce mentioned there. [00:45:53.898 – 00:46:00.388] Shortly I'll do that, but we're going over to, um, oh, and Mike G., so Mike, you sent me the message about that, what was that, Mike, again? [00:46:00.388 – 00:46:04.208] I'd put it in, uh, what is it? [00:46:04.208 – 00:46:04.818] The meeting- Uh …

[00:46:04.818 – 00:46:05.818] that Joyce was referring to. [00:46:05.818 – 00:46:06.408] Go ahead, Mike. [00:46:06.408 – 00:46:06.668] Go ahead. [00:46:06.668 – 00:46:11.098] Yeah, the, the meeting that, um, Joyce was referring to about with Joe C. [00:46:11.098 – 00:46:13.048] in Toronto, the Beyond B. group. [00:46:13.048 – 00:46:13.648] Correct, Joyce? [00:46:13.648 – 00:46:20.797] Yes, or f- they were called at one time the Freedom, Freedom T. or, yeah, something like that.

[00:46:20.797 – 00:46:22.048] Originally, I think, yes, yes. [00:46:22.048 – 00:46:22.828] Yeah, originally. [00:46:22.828 – 00:46:23.248] Yeah. [00:46:23.248 – 00:46:24.478] I mean, I, I, I… [00:46:24.478 – 00:46:25.678] And this is a great book. [00:46:25.678 – 00:46:27.188] I enjoyed it 'cause it's an easy read. [00:46:27.188 – 00:46:28.088] But, um, anyway.

[00:46:28.088 – 00:46:28.528] Thank you. [00:46:28.528 – 00:46:30.528] Thank you, Mike. [00:46:30.528 – 00:46:31.348] Thank you, Joyce. [00:46:31.348 – 00:46:37.408] And last but not means least, Pat O'D's around here somewhere from Boston. [00:46:37.408 – 00:46:40.728] Pat O'D., where are you? [00:46:40.728 – 00:46:42.428] I don't see you on my screen. [00:46:42.428 – 00:46:43.547] I'm a bit concerned.

[00:46:43.547 – 00:46:45.908] I'm here. [00:46:45.908 – 00:46:47.028] There you are. [00:46:47.028 – 00:46:49.948] Over to you, Patrick. [00:46:49.948 – 00:46:51.268] Okay. [00:46:51.268 – 00:46:55.768] I just, uh, just briefly on, on, uh, my involvement with this book. [00:46:55.768 – 00:46:57.168] I, I purchased this book. [00:46:57.168 – 00:47:07.368] I, COVID, I think, caused me to refocus and I, uh, I remember coming across the, uh, the writing of the Big Book in, in some discussions.

[00:47:07.368 – 00:47:11.208] And I said I, you know, I had too much time on my hands, like a lot of us. [00:47:11.208 – 00:47:13.608] And, uh, so I said, "Well, that, that's good. [00:47:13.608 – 00:47:19.368] That'll keep me from watching, uh, television or something like that." Uh, I've been sober. [00:47:19.368 – 00:47:22.788] My sobriety date is the 4th of November, 1980. [00:47:22.788 – 00:47:27.468] And, uh, I'm not a geek, but I, I th- I've read the books, you know. [00:47:27.468 – 00:47:34.688] I've, I've been through them a few times and, uh, I've been very active in Alcoholics Anonymous, and this was a new tome, you know. [00:47:34.688 – 00:47:41.768] And, uh, so the first time I read it, all of a sudden, uh, I realized that this was for me.

[00:47:41.768 – 00:47:43.248] I mean, this was, this was the thing. [00:47:43.248 – 00:47:50.428] And I, I went at it, um, with a notebook or pad of paper, which I keep, I always keep right beside me. [00:47:50.428 – 00:47:59.568] And, and I read one chapter at a time, and digested what I read, and went back to the different footnotes and the endnotes, et cetera, et cetera. [00:47:59.568 – 00:48:03.868] And, uh, and that's how I worked my way through it, very deliberately. [00:48:03.868 – 00:48:05.868] Probably every other day reading a page. [00:48:05.980 – 00:48:08.780] This was before we get into this reading of the book. [00:48:08.780 – 00:48:16.640] And, uh, like I said, I, I have an interest in AA history, so some stuff made sense and some stuff didn't make sense.

[00:48:16.640 – 00:48:19.740] Some I believe was new and some believe I don't believe was new. [00:48:19.740 – 00:48:23.280] Some believe I was, was correct and some I think is not correct. [00:48:23.280 – 00:48:24.880] That's just the way it is. [00:48:24.880 – 00:48:28.720] And, uh, history's always under revision as far as I'm concerned. [00:48:28.720 – 00:48:35.440] And, um, so I, I went through and, and then I read it a second time, uh, so I could… [00:48:35.440 – 00:48:40.740] I'm a re-reader of a lot of books, particularly of history books, and I will read books. [00:48:40.740 – 00:48:46.960] I'll read three or four books on the same subject by different authors.

[00:48:46.960 – 00:48:50.780] In fact, right now my, my, my charge is, uh, Benjamin F.. [00:48:50.780 – 00:48:54.800] I think I have four books on Benjamin F., which I'm reading right now. [00:48:54.800 – 00:49:04.600] Uh, some I read before, but then I, you know, I actually got inspired by that, uh, Ken B. documentary on, on Benjamin F.. [00:49:04.600 – 00:49:13.440] I said, "I, I got to correct some of these things." And I, I am reading some again, and I'm finding things that they contradict each other, and there's nothing wrong with that. [00:49:13.440 – 00:49:14.760] There's nothing… [00:49:14.760 – 00:49:20.100] I have one AA book here that says that Bill W. got sober in April of 1934. [00:49:20.100 – 00:49:25.520] I mean, I'm saying, "Didn't anybody ever proofread this thing?" It's a beautiful hard cover thing.

[00:49:25.520 – 00:49:28.480] I'll probably sh- I should probably sell it to, um… [00:49:28.480 – 00:49:29.870] I don't think it's a mistype. [00:49:29.870 – 00:49:31.120] I think that's the way they wrote it. [00:49:31.120 – 00:49:34.420] But anyway, that's, that's how I do it, and I, I go through it. [00:49:34.420 – 00:49:42.860] Now, when we did this reading the first time through, um, that would've been my third time reading The Big Book, uh, the, The Big Book by S.. [00:49:42.860 – 00:49:49.840] Um, I thought that I would just stop and, and, and that would, I'd go through it one time with everybody and participate. [00:49:49.840 – 00:49:50.460] But I found no.

[00:49:50.460 – 00:49:55.340] I find that I, once again, it's like, it's like people reading the regular Big Book. [00:49:55.340 – 00:50:01.000] I don't know about you, but every time I read it, I come, I seem to focus on something else. [00:50:01.000 – 00:50:04.920] My mind is different every time, and that's why I enjoy this thing. [00:50:04.920 – 00:50:09.280] Um, and like I said, I have, I have different views on some of this stuff. [00:50:09.280 – 00:50:09.960] I, I don't… [00:50:09.960 – 00:50:13.940] I believe, uh, that, uh, you know, he was a guy. [00:50:13.940 – 00:50:15.220] He was a man, you know?

[00:50:15.220 – 00:50:19.360] I'm also a big proponent of, uh, of Sam S.. [00:50:19.360 – 00:50:26.340] I've read all, not all of Sam S.'s stuff I'm sure, because there's stuff that hasn't been discovered, but I've read a lot of that stuff. [00:50:26.340 – 00:50:28.220] I find the threads in all of this stuff. [00:50:28.220 – 00:50:38.680] And, you know, who authored it, uh, my sponsor was one of these guys that if I argued about some point, he would turn to me and say, "How important [00:50:38.680 – 00:50:39.160] is it? [00:50:39.160 – 00:50:41.040] You know, you got the message. [00:50:41.040 – 00:50:42.940] Who cares?" You know?

[00:50:42.940 – 00:50:53.400] And, uh, my latest thread, and I'm gonna close with this, is I know that there's a big movement out, you know, to go ahead and to rewrite The Big Book and, [00:50:53.400 – 00:50:56.820] and to change the verbiage and everything else like that. [00:50:56.820 – 00:51:07.140] And on people who tend to go ahead and, uh, treat The Big Book, uh, as a, as a Bible, um, and, [00:51:07.140 – 00:51:17.170] and, and as basically the word of a sub-god, um, I'd like to re- let people realize that page 164 was not [00:51:17.170 – 00:51:22.290] ripped out of the second, third, fourth, and fifth edition of The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:51:22.290 – 00:51:33.120] And if we value these words that we're, that we, that people are turning into monuments, it says, "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. [00:51:33.120 – 00:51:35.420] We realize we know only a little.

[00:51:35.420 – 00:51:45.520] God will constantly disclose more to you and to us." And I believe that that's the essence of, of regular attendance at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. [00:51:45.520 – 00:51:56.330] And it's in the same spirit, I guess, that I would say from, that I learned from my sponsors, that I learned from reading a lot about Richmond W., [00:51:56.330 – 00:52:06.220] and that what I've learned from watching over 40 years of people participating in Alcoholics Anonymous on a daily basis and spreading the message one to one. [00:52:06.220 – 00:52:10.380] And we are, like Ernie K. says it, we are people of stories. [00:52:10.380 – 00:52:13.320] We are not people of sit down and read this chapter. [00:52:13.320 – 00:52:17.720] We are people of this is our experience, strength, and hope, and this is how we got sober. [00:52:17.720 – 00:52:23.800] And like Ray L. said to me, "Go with these people, do what they do, and you're gonna be okay." Thank you.

[00:52:23.800 – 00:52:27.460] Thank you. [00:52:27.460 – 00:52:29.480] Patrick O. in Boston. [00:52:29.480 – 00:52:29.740] Thank you. [00:52:29.740 – 00:52:30.350] Thank you, Patrick. [00:52:30.350 – 00:52:31.200] Good job as always. [00:52:31.200 – 00:52:32.290] Thank you very much. [00:52:32.290 – 00:52:33.180] Thank you, Patrick.

[00:52:33.180 – 00:52:34.460] That was great, Patrick. [00:52:34.460 – 00:52:36.200] Thank you so much, Patrick. [00:52:36.200 – 00:52:37.910] Thanks. [00:52:37.910 – 00:52:38.550] Thanks, Patrick. [00:52:38.550 – 00:52:39.640] Wow. [00:52:39.640 – 00:52:41.900] So I just- Thanks, Patrick … [00:52:41.900 – 00:52:44.520] I just put, uh, recordings of our readings can be found.

[00:52:44.520 – 00:52:55.380] I just put, uh, a link for the recordings on recoveryspeakers.com, and you can find the first time around we done those as well on recoveryspeakers.com. [00:52:55.380 – 00:53:00.300] Now we're getting ready for Jim W. presentation. [00:53:00.300 – 00:53:01.520] I think I just… [00:53:01.520 – 00:53:07.440] Jim, if it's okay with you, if it's okay with everyone, we just have just five minutes be- and we'll just kind of get out of that. [00:53:07.440 – 00:53:14.100] And g- if anyone wants to ask a question of, uh, those who, um, shared with us, but let's try and keep it as brief as possible. [00:53:14.100 – 00:53:17.480] And we'll just do five minutes if that's okay, and then we'll go over to Jim W.. [00:53:17.480 – 00:53:20.740] So w- thank you all, all our presenters.

[00:53:20.740 – 00:53:23.740] Let's give it, hear it up for one more time for the six people who shared. [00:53:23.740 – 00:53:24.220] Thank you. [00:53:24.220 – 00:53:26.520] Great job, guys. [00:53:26.660 – 00:53:27.080] Thank you. [00:53:27.080 – 00:53:28.080] Woo-hoo. [00:53:28.080 – 00:53:28.480] Thank you. [00:53:28.480 – 00:53:29.220] Good job, everybody.

[00:53:29.220 – 00:53:33.330] So if there's only one question, if not, we, we'll get ready for Mr… [00:53:33.330 – 00:53:33.940] There you go. [00:53:33.940 – 00:53:34.480] Eddie G. [00:53:34.480 – 00:53:35.940] in Beaches in Toronto. [00:53:35.940 – 00:53:36.840] Hello, Eddie G. [00:53:36.840 – 00:53:37.700] Yeah. [00:53:37.700 – 00:53:40.020] Tha- th- thank you everybody for the presentations.

[00:53:40.020 – 00:53:40.860] Really appreciate it. [00:53:40.860 – 00:53:42.500] Uh, Jay, I have a question. [00:53:42.500 – 00:53:46.720] You, you mentioned, um, NPR version. [00:53:46.720 – 00:53:47.940] What does that mean? [00:53:47.940 – 00:53:51.160] Oh, uh, you know what? [00:53:51.160 – 00:53:52.080] I've made a mistake. [00:53:52.080 – 00:53:54.220] It, it was National P. Radio.

[00:53:54.220 – 00:53:59.860] I, I, I got this American-centric mind sometimes. [00:53:59.860 – 00:54:10.240] It's the PBS version, and it's a 90-minute version of the, the film that came out probably two years after the, [00:54:10.240 – 00:54:10.680] after the… [00:54:10.680 – 00:54:18.200] So you can get a 60 minute or a 90 minute and, you know, it's alcoholics, you want the 90 minutes, right? [00:54:18.200 – 00:54:23.070] And we're talking about Bill W.- All right. [00:54:23.070 – 00:54:23.071] All right, thank you … [00:54:23.071 – 00:54:26.210] is that the documentary we're talking about, um, by Kevin H.?

[00:54:26.210 – 00:54:26.480] Yeah. [00:54:26.480 – 00:54:28.560] The movie, the movie Bill, Bill W. [00:54:28.560 – 00:54:29.320] The Documentary. [00:54:29.320 – 00:54:32.480] It's by, uh, Kevin H. and Dan C.. [00:54:32.480 – 00:54:35.460] And, uh, they're, it's, it… [00:54:35.460 – 00:54:41.100] Kevin H.'s probably the most knowledgeable person about AA history on the planet. [00:54:41.100 – 00:54:42.300] Wow.

[00:54:42.300 – 00:54:45.680] Thank you for that, Eddie G. [00:54:45.680 – 00:54:47.819] Um, Jay, of course, thank you. [00:54:47.819 – 00:54:53.320] So if there's no more questions, just a reminder that we have Mr. [00:54:53.320 – 00:54:55.660] S. but of course he'll go back next week with us. [00:54:55.660 – 00:54:58.300] Okay. [00:54:58.300 – 00:55:02.400] Bill, uh, Jim, Jim W., always nice to have you do a presentation. [00:55:02.400 – 00:55:05.900] I learn a lot listening to you, and I'm sure we all agree on that.

[00:55:05.900 – 00:55:07.540] Over to you, Jim W.. [00:55:07.540 – 00:55:10.000] Well, it's always nice to be had. [00:55:10.000 – 00:55:12.280] And, uh, thank you, David. [00:55:12.280 – 00:55:15.450] And, uh, thank you all for, for being here. [00:55:15.450 – 00:55:17.260] Uh, some great shares there. [00:55:17.260 – 00:55:22.940] And, uh, uh, I'm gonna do mine in, uh, just to try 30 seconds. [00:55:22.940 – 00:55:31.240] But, uh, in November of 2019, I flew from Cancun up to Connecticut when, uh, Bill S. launched his book.

[00:55:31.240 – 00:55:34.620] And I wanted to go up there and get a… [00:55:34.620 – 00:55:44.760] A- and he was there with Chris F., uh, who wrote Drunks, and, uh, and Gary, uh, N., uh, who wrote, uh, uh, King [00:55:44.760 – 00:55:47.220] Charles, uh, about Charles T.. [00:55:47.220 – 00:55:49.840] And, uh, just a great experience. [00:55:49.840 – 00:55:59.960] But I was there when he launched the book, you know, and I have it, uh, I have it on audiobook, and I have it in, uh, in, um, Kindle. [00:55:59.960 – 00:56:04.200] And I have the, the big hard book with the, with the author's signature. [00:56:04.200 – 00:56:10.780] So, uh, and, and it has, it has made a big, uh, a big difference in, in a lot of things in my life.

[00:56:10.780 – 00:56:12.139] I think for all of us. [00:56:12.139 – 00:56:17.160] Uh, you know, there's nothing wrong with, uh, with learning the truth. [00:56:17.160 – 00:56:23.780] And, and as someone mentioned, uh, Patrick or s- someone mentioned, you know, the history is a work in progress. [00:56:23.780 – 00:56:26.220] You know, it's always open to revision. [00:56:26.220 – 00:56:34.540] And, uh, and Bill S. is always open, uh, i- in our meetings here to, "Hey, if you find this, let me know. [00:56:34.540 – 00:56:38.700] I'm looking for this document, let me know." You know? [00:56:38.700 – 00:56:43.960] Uh, it's a search, you know, and that's, that's what, uh, historians are.

[00:56:43.960 – 00:56:44.740] They're searchers. [00:56:44.740 – 00:56:52.820] Well, I'm gonna do a little presentation on, uh, a little tongue in cheek, but, um, one of the, uh… [00:56:52.820 – 00:56:53.820] Actually a recording. [00:56:53.820 – 00:57:01.840] I'm gonna use a transcript of a recording that, uh, that Bill W. made in 1954 in Fort Worth, Texas. [00:57:01.840 – 00:57:11.320] Uh, this, uh, recording and transcript is, is quoted quite a bit in Writing the Big Book by Bill S.. [00:57:11.320 – 00:57:17.780] Uh, the counting noses and just a lot of things, uh, that, uh… [00:57:17.780 – 00:57:27.560] And, and like I say, just a little, uh, little tongue in cheek presentation of, uh, of, uh, Bill W.

[00:57:27.560 – 00:57:31.800] and versus Bill S. [00:57:31.800 – 00:57:34.740] My name is Jim W., and I'm an alcoholic. [00:57:34.740 – 00:57:37.660] My sobriety date is March 5th, 1989. [00:57:37.660 – 00:57:39.800] My home group is the Friends of Bill W. [00:57:39.800 – 00:57:41.260] Group in Cancun, Mexico. [00:57:41.260 – 00:57:44.440] My sponsor is John M., and he has a sponsor. [00:57:44.440 – 00:57:50.120] So this presentation is Writing the Big Book: uh, Bill W.

[00:57:50.120 – 00:57:52.800] versus Bill S. [00:57:52.800 – 00:57:56.430] A little pugilistic, uh, humor here. [00:57:56.430 – 00:58:00.680] And in this corner we have Bill W. [00:58:00.680 – 00:58:09.320] with his story, and in the other corner we have Bill S., Bill S., with history. [00:58:09.320 – 00:58:13.740] And, uh, one is a story and one is history. [00:58:13.740 – 00:58:16.040] You know, our book is the story. [00:58:16.040 – 00:58:26.240] You know, Alcoholics Anonymous, the first four words of the book say, "Alcoholics Anonymous is the story." The story of how many thousands of men and women have recovered

[00:58:26.240 – 00:58:27.220] from alcoholism. [00:58:27.220 – 00:58:36.810] Here's a quote from, uh, this is, uh, Dorothy S., Clarence S.'s wife, who was interviewed by Bill W., uh, in 1954. [00:58:36.810 – 00:58:46.920] And, um, and, uh, and Dorothy says, uh, "Well, this is switching back, but one of the things I feel vitally important is to get the story of how the book [00:58:46.920 – 00:58:47.190] was ac- [00:58:47.292 – 00:58:47.852] Actually written. [00:58:47.852 – 00:58:51.412] We get so many distorted cor- stories on the Coast. [00:58:51.412 – 00:58:54.232] People talk about the 100 men that wrote the book.

[00:58:54.232 – 00:58:57.592] Actually, there weren't 100, as Bill will bear me out. [00:58:57.592 – 00:59:02.002] But he said 100 to make it sound good, as though it really was gonna work. [00:59:02.002 – 00:59:06.162] People talk as though there were 100 men that all went to St. [00:59:06.162 – 00:59:13.372] Leon and were taken straight up to Heaven, and God just guided Bill's hand, that Bill just sat there and let the words come through. [00:59:13.372 – 00:59:17.592] Actually, it wasn't anything like that at all. [00:59:17.592 – 00:59:19.932] So now we're gonna… [00:59:19.932 – 00:59:30.192] Well, this was a speech that Bill gave at a Texas state convention in June of '54, and, uh, and so we're gonna let Bill tell the story in his own words, and he himself

[00:59:30.192 – 00:59:31.572] calls it a yarn. [00:59:31.572 – 00:59:38.772] "I just would like to spin some yarn, and they will be a series of yarns which cluster around the preparation of the good old A.A. [00:59:38.772 – 00:59:39.252] Bible. [00:59:39.252 – 00:59:45.292] And when I hear that, it always makes me shudder, because the guys who put it together weren't a damn bit biblical. [00:59:45.292 – 00:59:55.272] I think sometimes some of the drunks have an idea that these old-timers went around with almost visible halos and long gowns, and they were full of sweetness and light. [00:59:55.272 – 00:59:57.212] Oh, boy, how inspired they were. [00:59:57.212 – 01:00:00.432] Oh, yes, but wait till I tell you.

[01:00:00.432 – 01:00:08.692] I suppose the book yarn really started in the living room of Doc and Annie S. in the summer of '35. [01:00:08.692 – 01:00:10.532] A little group caught hold. [01:00:10.532 – 01:00:12.372] As you know, I landed there. [01:00:12.372 – 01:00:17.012] I helped S., uh, briefly with it, and he went on to found the first A.A. [01:00:17.012 – 01:00:17.852] group in the world. [01:00:17.852 – 01:00:21.172] And as with all new groups, it was nearly all failure. [01:00:21.172 – 01:00:24.512] But now and then somebody saw the light, and there was progress.

[01:00:24.512 – 01:00:26.892] Pampered, I got back to New York. [01:00:26.892 – 01:00:36.592] A little more experienced group started there, and by the time we got around to '37, this thing had leaped a little over into Cleveland and began to move south into New York. [01:00:36.592 – 01:00:40.052] But it was still, we thought in those years, flying blind. [01:00:40.052 – 01:00:45.432] A flickering candle indeed that might at any nu- any mo- moment be snuffed out. [01:00:45.432 – 01:00:55.452] So on this late fall afternoon in 1937, S. and I were talking together in his living room, Anne sitting there, when we began [01:00:55.452 – 01:00:56.332] to count noses. [01:00:56.332 – 01:01:01.412] How many people had stayed dry in Akron, in New York, maybe a few in Cleveland.

[01:01:01.412 – 01:01:04.012] How many stayed dry, and for how long? [01:01:04.012 – 01:01:09.812] And when we added up the total, it sure was a handful of, I don't know, 35, 40 maybe. [01:01:09.812 – 01:01:19.752] But a month- enough time had elapsed and, uh, enough really fatal cases of alcoholism so that we grasped the importance of these small statistics. [01:01:19.752 – 01:01:23.772] Bob and I saw for the first time that this thing was going to succeed. [01:01:23.772 – 01:01:33.752] That God in His providence and mercy had thrown a new light into the dark caves where we and our kind had been, and were still, by the millions dwelling. [01:01:33.752 – 01:01:38.072] I never can forget the elation and ecstasy that seized us both. [01:01:38.072 – 01:01:40.952] And then we sat happily talking and reflecting.

[01:01:40.952 – 01:01:46.692] We reflected that, well, a couple of score of drunks were sober, but this had taken three long years. [01:01:46.692 – 01:01:52.972] There had been an immense amount of failure, and a long time it ta- been taken just to sober up the handful. [01:01:52.972 – 01:01:57.792] How could this handful carry its message to all those who still didn't know? [01:01:57.792 – 01:02:01.492] Not all the drunks in the world could come to Akron or to New York. [01:02:01.492 – 01:02:05.532] How could we transmit our message to them, and by what means? [01:02:05.532 – 01:02:14.032] So it was obvious that because of drunks being such unlovely creatures, we would have to have a great chain of hospitals. [01:02:14.032 – 01:02:17.442] And as that dream, dream burst upon me, it sounded good.

[01:02:17.442 – 01:02:21.182] Because you see, I'd been down in Wall S. in the promotion business. [01:02:21.182 – 01:02:26.672] I remember the great sums of money that were made as soon as people got this chain idea. [01:02:26.672 – 01:02:30.832] You know, chain drugstores, chain grocery stores, chain dry goods stores. [01:02:30.832 – 01:02:38.372] That evening Bob and I told them that we were within sight of success, and that we thought this thing might go on and on and on. [01:02:38.372 – 01:02:41.772] That a new light indeed was shining in our dark world. [01:02:41.772 – 01:02:46.972] But how could this light be a reflection and transmitted without being distorted and garbled? [01:02:46.972 – 01:02:54.992] And at this point they turned the meeting over to me, and being a salesman, I set right to work on the drunk tanks and subsidies for the missionaries.

[01:02:54.992 – 01:02:58.252] I was pretty poor then, and we touched on the book. [01:02:58.252 – 01:03:07.732] The group conscience consisted of 18 men, good and true, and good and true men you could see right away were damn skeptical about it all. [01:03:07.732 – 01:03:11.472] Almost with one voice they chorused, "Let's keep it simple. [01:03:11.472 – 01:03:13.152] This is gonna bring money into this thing. [01:03:13.152 – 01:03:15.792] This is gonna create a professional class. [01:03:15.792 – 01:03:21.552] We'll all be ruined." "Well," I countered, "that's a very good argument, and hats to what you say. [01:03:21.552 – 01:03:26.972] But even within gunshot of this very house, alcoholics are dying like flies.

[01:03:26.972 – 01:03:34.152] And if this thing doesn't move any faster than it has in the last three years, may be another 10 before it gets to the outskirts of Akron. [01:03:34.152 – 01:03:37.532] How in God's name are we gonna carry this message to others? [01:03:37.532 – 01:03:39.852] We've got to take some kind of chance. [01:03:39.852 – 01:03:43.692] We can't keep it so simple it becomes an anarchy and gets complicated. [01:03:43.692 – 01:03:47.592] We can't keep it so simple that it won't propagate itself. [01:03:47.592 – 01:03:58.052] And we've got to have a lot of money to do this." So exerting myself to the utmost, which was considerable in those days, we finally got a vote in that little meeting, [01:03:58.052 – 01:04:02.052] and it was a mighty close vote by just a majority of maybe two or three.

[01:04:02.052 – 01:04:07.852] The meeting said, with some reluctance, "Well, Bill, if you need a lot of dough, you better go back to New York where there's plenty of i- [01:04:07.952 – 01:04:12.792] Of it, you raise it." Well, boy, that was the word that I'd been waiting for. [01:04:12.792 – 01:04:19.992] So I scrammed back to the great city and I began to approach some people of means describing this tremendous thing that had happened. [01:04:19.992 – 01:04:30.052] Now here when, uh, when you see little slides with green on them and Bill S.'s, uh, picture, then you know it's gonna be talking, [01:04:30.052 – 01:04:32.952] it's know it's gonna be Bill S. talking. [01:04:32.952 – 01:04:41.752] And he says, "Such is the collective substance of Bill's several colorful accounts regarding the Akron vote and AA's momentous decision to write a book. [01:04:41.752 – 01:04:46.752] The only one of these three ambition pro- proposals that ever became a reality.

[01:04:46.752 – 01:04:56.752] It's an appealing and lively story capturing the elation of the moment, highlighting all the problems that would surely come from rapid expansion, painting a vibrant fiction of the [01:04:56.752 – 01:04:59.392] emotions that flared up on both sides of the issue. [01:04:59.392 – 01:05:09.552] Equally vivid and clear are the propositions taken by the two sides, along with the anger and the tension generated by their heated arguments and the uncertainty [01:05:09.552 – 01:05:10.892] of who would eventually win. [01:05:10.892 – 01:05:20.572] It is a wonderful story that deftly builds with suspense, culminating in the, uh, in the drama of Bill W.'s victory in the final vote. [01:05:20.572 – 01:05:26.332] The problem is that many of the details reported in this story are simply not true. [01:05:26.332 – 01:05:38.152] And even more important, Bill leaves out a host of important facts and critical factors that are essential to any understanding of the story." So

[01:05:38.152 – 01:05:45.612] almost all the particulars in his version, Bill W.'s version, of that October meeting are contradicted by contemporary documents. [01:05:45.612 – 01:05:51.372] But contrary to Bill W.'s frequent retelling of the story, he did not go to Ohio alone. [01:05:51.372 – 01:05:58.452] He and Lois went, and they were accompanied by two other couples, the P. and the R., along with their friend F.. [01:05:58.452 – 01:06:02.632] The fellowship was about to convene its first summit meeting. [01:06:02.632 – 01:06:07.612] It was time to chart a new direction for the fledgling movement. [01:06:07.612 – 01:06:10.712] I don't know why this is not doing… [01:06:10.712 – 01:06:11.552] There we go.

[01:06:11.552 – 01:06:21.752] Remains a matter of speculation as to whether these New York ringers, F., S. Parker, and Bill R., cast ballots in the very narrow 10-date approval [01:06:21.752 – 01:06:22.792] of the grand schemes. [01:06:22.792 – 01:06:24.512] We simply do not know. [01:06:24.512 – 01:06:27.752] Uh, Shayberg draws us to some additional mystery. [01:06:27.752 – 01:06:37.552] All of the diaries that Lois left are intact, except for the one from 1937, which has 70 pages removed. [01:06:37.552 – 01:06:41.972] The excised pages include the days of the Akron trip. [01:06:41.972 – 01:06:45.372] This is from an interview with Bill S. by Bob K..

[01:06:45.372 – 01:06:48.132] Now back to Bill, uh, Bill W. [01:06:48.132 – 01:06:48.912] and his yarn. [01:06:48.912 – 01:06:55.242] So we remember that he scrammed back to the great city and began to approach some people of means. [01:06:55.242 – 01:06:59.772] Didn't seem so tremendous to the people of means at all. [01:06:59.772 – 01:07:00.292] "What? [01:07:00.292 – 01:07:02.192] 35 or 40 drunks sober up? [01:07:02.192 – 01:07:04.772] They've sobered them up before now, you know.

[01:07:04.772 – 01:07:05.572] And besides, Mr. [01:07:05.572 – 01:07:08.992] W., don't you think it's time to sweeping up the shavings? [01:07:08.992 – 01:07:18.052] I mean, wouldn't this be something for the Red C. better?" In other words, with all of my most ardent solicitations, I got one hell of a freeze from the gentleman of wealth. [01:07:18.052 – 01:07:20.732] Well, I began to get blue. [01:07:20.732 – 01:07:25.272] And when I begin to get blue, my stomach kicks up as well as other things. [01:07:25.272 – 01:07:28.632] I was lying in bed one night with an imaginary ulcer attack. [01:07:28.632 – 01:07:30.772] This used to happen all the time.

[01:07:30.772 – 01:07:32.812] I had one the time the 12 steps were written. [01:07:32.812 – 01:07:39.312] And I said, "My G., we're starving to death here on Clinton S.." By this time, the house was full of drunks. [01:07:39.312 – 01:07:40.932] They were eating us out of house and home. [01:07:40.932 – 01:07:44.652] In those days, we never believed in charging anybody for anything. [01:07:44.652 – 01:07:49.372] So L. was earning the money, and I was being the missionary, and the drunks were eating the meals. [01:07:49.372 – 01:07:50.972] "This can't go on. [01:07:50.972 – 01:07:52.552] We've got to have them drunk tanks.

[01:07:52.552 – 01:07:56.532] We've got to have them missionaries, and how we got to have them missionaries. [01:07:56.532 – 01:08:03.692] And we've got to have a book, that's for sure." Well, the next morning, I crawled into my clothes and I called in my brother-in-law. [01:08:03.692 – 01:08:07.852] He's a doctor, and he's about the last person who followed my trip way down. [01:08:07.852 – 01:08:09.652] The only one safe, of course, the Lord. [01:08:09.652 – 01:08:19.732] "Well," I said, "I'll go up and see Leonard." So I went up to see my brother-in-law, Leonard, and he pried out a little time between his patients, and I started my awful bellyache [01:08:19.732 – 01:08:24.812] about these rich guys who wouldn't give us any dough for this great and glorious enterprise. [01:08:24.812 – 01:08:30.752] It seemed to me he knew a girl, and I think she had an uncle that tied to the R. offices.

[01:08:30.752 – 01:08:33.112] I asked him to call and see if there was such a man. [01:08:33.112 – 01:08:35.472] If there was, would he see us? [01:08:35.472 – 01:08:39.772] On what slender threads our destiny sometimes hangs. [01:08:39.772 – 01:08:42.232] So the call was made instantly. [01:08:42.232 – 01:08:49.012] There came under the other end of the wire the voice of dear Willard R., one of the loveliest Christian gentlemen I've ever known. [01:08:49.012 – 01:08:58.552] And at the bottom there, it says, "Why, certainly," said dear Willard, "Come right over." So we go over to the, uh, R. Plaza. [01:08:58.552 – 01:09:02.472] We go up that elevator 54 flights or so.

[01:09:02.472 – 01:09:05.892] I got 56, I guess it was, and we walk promptly into Mr. [01:09:05.892 – 01:09:07.742] R.'s personal offices. [01:09:07.742 – 01:09:09.282] We asked to see Mr. [01:09:09.282 – 01:09:10.092] R.. [01:09:10.092 – 01:09:16.752] Here sits this lovely, benign old gentleman who nevertheless had a kind of shrewd twinkle in his eye. [01:09:16.752 – 01:09:25.552] So I sat down and told him about our exciting discovery, this terrific cure for alcoholics that had just hit the world, how it worked and what we've done for them. [01:09:25.552 – 01:09:28.472] Boy, this was the first receptive man with money or…

[01:09:28.624 – 01:09:29.464] Access to money. [01:09:29.464 – 01:09:31.384] Remember, we were in Mr. [01:09:31.384 – 01:09:35.824] R.'s personal offices at this point, but now we'd learned that this was Mr. [01:09:35.824 – 01:09:38.044] R.'s closest personal friend. [01:09:38.044 – 01:09:39.984] So he said, "I'm very interested. [01:09:39.984 – 01:09:41.504] Would you like to have lunch with me and Mr. [01:09:41.504 – 01:09:45.824] W.?" Well now you know for a rising promoter, that sounded pretty good.

[01:09:45.824 – 01:09:48.404] Going to have lunch with best friends of John D. [01:09:48.404 – 01:09:50.044] Things were looking up. [01:09:50.044 – 01:09:52.564] My ulcer attack disappeared. [01:09:52.564 – 01:10:01.364] So I had lunch with the old gentleman and, and we went over this thing, and boy, he's so warm and kind and friendly. [01:10:01.364 – 01:10:04.604] Right at the close of the lunch he said, "Well now, now Mr. [01:10:04.604 – 01:10:13.024] W., or Bill if I can call you that, uh, w- wouldn't you like to have a luncheon meeting with some of my friends? [01:10:13.024 – 01:10:19.144] There's Frank A., he's in the advertising business, but he was on a committee that recommended that Mr.

[01:10:19.144 – 01:10:21.324] R. drop the prohibition business. [01:10:21.324 – 01:10:24.204] And there's, uh, Leroy C., he looks after Mr. [01:10:24.204 – 01:10:26.184] R.'s, uh, estate. [01:10:26.184 – 01:10:36.464] I believe they'd like to hear this story." So a meeting was arranged and fell upon a winter's night in late 1937, and the meeting was at 30 R. Plazar- [01:10:36.464 – 01:10:37.424] Plaza. [01:10:37.424 – 01:10:44.824] We called in posthaste a couple of drunks from Akron, S. included of course, Bill heading the profes- pros- procession. [01:10:44.824 – 01:10:50.364] I came in with the New York contingent of four or five, and to our astonishment, we were ushered into Mr.

[01:10:50.364 – 01:10:53.564] R.'s personal board room, right next to his office. [01:10:53.564 – 01:11:01.024] I thought to myself, "Well now this is really getting hot." Indeed, I felt very much warmed when I was told by Mr. [01:11:01.024 – 01:11:04.484] R. that I was sitting in a chair just vacated by Mr. [01:11:04.484 – 01:11:05.404] R.. [01:11:05.404 – 01:11:15.264] Said, "Well now, we're really getting close to the bankroll." Old D. Silvers was there that night too, and he testified what he had seen happen to these new friends. [01:11:15.264 – 01:11:24.504] I could see the moment for the big touch was coming, so I gingerly brought up the subject of the drunk tanks, the subsidized missionaries and the book. [01:11:24.504 – 01:11:30.084] Well, God moves in mysterious ways His wonders to perform.

[01:11:30.084 – 01:11:32.384] Didn't look like a wonder to me when Mr. [01:11:32.384 – 01:11:42.344] S., head of a large engineering firm and chairman of Riverside C., looked at us and said, "Gentlemen, up to this point this has been the work of goodwill only. [01:11:42.344 – 01:11:45.244] No plan, no property, no paid people. [01:11:45.244 – 01:11:47.724] Just one carrying the good news to the next. [01:11:47.724 – 01:11:48.504] Isn't this true? [01:11:48.504 – 01:11:55.604] And may it not be that, that is, the, uh, that is where the great power of this society lies? [01:11:55.604 – 01:11:59.404] Now, if we subsidize it, might it not alter its whole character?

[01:11:59.404 – 01:12:06.124] We want to do all we can, we're gathered for that, but would it be wise?" Well, the salesmen all got Mr. [01:12:06.124 – 01:12:07.164] S., gave Mr. [01:12:07.164 – 01:12:09.004] S. the rush, and we said, "Well, Mr. [01:12:09.004 – 01:12:12.544] S., there are only 40 of us, it's taken three years. [01:12:12.544 – 01:12:13.404] Why millions, Mr. [01:12:13.404 – 01:12:23.504] S., will rot before this thing ever gets to them, unless we have money and lots of it." And we made our case at last with these gentlemen for the missionaries, the drunk [01:12:23.504 – 01:12:24.364] tanks and the book.

[01:12:24.364 – 01:12:29.524] So one of them volunteered to investigate us very carefully, and since poor old Dr. [01:12:29.524 – 01:12:38.644] Bob was harder up than I was, and since the first group in the reciprocal community situation was in Akron, we directed their attention out there. [01:12:38.644 – 01:12:49.104] Frank A., still a trustee in the foundation, at his own expense got on a train, went out to Akron and made all sorts of preliminary inquiries. [01:12:49.104 – 01:12:57.724] Down there a little farther in yellow, he, he recommended that these friends of ours, uh, to these r- friends of ours that we should have at least a token amount of money. [01:12:57.724 – 01:13:01.024] At first, say $50,000, something like that. [01:13:01.024 – 01:13:06.024] That would clear up the mortgage on Smith's place, it would get us a little rehabilitation place. [01:13:06.024 – 01:13:07.104] We could put Dr.

[01:13:07.104 – 01:13:12.564] Smith in charge, he could subsidize a few of these people briefly till we got some more money. [01:13:12.564 – 01:13:15.064] We could start the chain of hospitals. [01:13:15.064 – 01:13:16.504] We'd have a few missionaries. [01:13:16.504 – 01:13:21.284] We could get busy on the book, all for a mere 50,000 bucks. [01:13:21.284 – 01:13:30.724] Now, just to put that in perspective, $50,000 in 1938 is the equivalent of about a million dollars in today's money. [01:13:30.724 – 01:13:35.653] Just, uh, had someone ask about this. [01:13:35.653 – 01:13:38.464] This just happens to be the, the A. roster.

[01:13:38.464 – 01:13:43.903] Frank A., of course, went out to Akron and did his report and, uh, that look familiar, Riley? [01:13:43.903 – 01:13:46.844] And, uh, and this is the A. roster. [01:13:46.844 – 01:13:56.124] These are the people that were, uh, were involved at the time, and their amount of, uh, dry time and the length of their drinking years and their ages. [01:13:56.124 – 01:14:00.364] Lots of people in their 30s, uh, were members at the time. [01:14:00.364 – 01:14:03.364] Anyway, that wasn't part of Bill's story. [01:14:03.364 – 01:14:06.544] Now we're back to Bill, uh, Bill's talk where he says, "Mr. [01:14:06.544 – 01:14:11.644] Will- uh, Willard R., our original contact, then took the report in to John D.

[01:14:11.644 – 01:14:13.524] Jr., as everybody recalls. [01:14:13.524 – 01:14:14.724] John D. [01:14:14.724 – 01:14:18.424] says, 'Somehow I am strangely stirred by all this. [01:14:18.424 – 01:14:24.004] This interests me immensely, but isn't money going to spoil this thing? [01:14:24.004 – 01:14:35.564] I'm terribly afraid that it would, and yet I am so strangely stirred by it.'" Then he went down the next part in yellow there where it says, "I'll put $5,000 [01:14:35.564 – 01:14:37.264] in the Riverside C. treasury. [01:14:37.264 – 01:14:41.464] Those folks can form themselves into a committee and draw on it as they like.

[01:14:41.464 – 01:14:49.134] I want to hear what goes on, but please don't ask me for any more money." So there went the fifty [01:14:49.334 – 01:14:50.044] thousand dollars. [01:14:50.044 – 01:14:57.404] We had more meetings with our newfound friends, A., R., and S., and those fellows who stuck with us. [01:14:57.404 – 01:15:02.664] And, uh, we again convinced these folks that w- uh, this thing needed a lot of money. [01:15:02.664 – 01:15:03.844] What could you do without it? [01:15:03.844 – 01:15:12.204] So one of them proposed, "Well, why don't we form a foundation, the Alcoholic F.?" Why we picked that name, that one, I don't know. [01:15:12.204 – 01:15:19.314] I don't know whether foundation was alcoholic, but it was the Alcoholic F., not the Alcoholics F..

[01:15:19.314 – 01:15:22.384] Down there further, the, uh, the lawyers… [01:15:22.384 – 01:15:24.994] Is someone unmuted? [01:15:24.994 – 01:15:29.424] Um, someone, uh… [01:15:29.424 – 01:15:33.544] Can someone mute themselves, please? [01:15:33.544 – 01:15:34.904] Anyway. [01:15:34.904 – 01:15:41.564] Well, indeed, the lawyer says, "What's the difference?" Uh, they wanted, uh, uh, to have, uh, non-alcoholics to be a majority. [01:15:41.564 – 01:15:42.584] Say what's…

[01:15:42.584 – 01:15:43.744] The lawyer says, "Well, okay. [01:15:43.744 – 01:15:49.344] So what's the difference between an alcoholic and a non-alcoholic?" One of the smart drunks said, "That's a cinch. [01:15:49.344 – 01:15:58.984] A non-alcoholic is a guy who can drink, and an alcoholic is a guy who can't drink." "Well," said the lawyer, "how do we state that legally?" We didn't know and they never know. [01:15:58.984 – 01:16:00.224] They never did find out. [01:16:00.224 – 01:16:00.924] A.A. [01:16:00.924 – 01:16:06.624] still doesn't have a definition for alcoholism and what an alcoholic is. [01:16:06.624 – 01:16:12.124] So they decided on Class A and Class B instead of saying alcoholic and non-alcoholic.

[01:16:12.124 – 01:16:14.124] Anyway, back to Bill W. [01:16:14.124 – 01:16:16.244] So we had this wonderful new foundation. [01:16:16.244 – 01:16:21.684] And so our salesmen around New York started to solicit some money again from the very rich. [01:16:21.684 – 01:16:23.264] We had a list of them. [01:16:23.264 – 01:16:26.814] We had credentials and letters from friends of, of, uh, Mr. [01:16:26.814 – 01:16:27.404] John D. [01:16:27.404 – 01:16:28.094] R..

[01:16:28.094 – 01:16:30.404] How could you miss, I ask you, salesmen? [01:16:30.404 – 01:16:36.984] But then, uh, all during we didn't get one damn cent in the whole summer of 1938. [01:16:36.984 – 01:16:38.804] Praise G.. [01:16:38.804 – 01:16:48.844] Then further down, what with the mortgage and with me and S. eating away at it, the five grand had a bl- had about gone up the flue, and we were all stone [01:16:48.844 – 01:16:49.904] broke again. [01:16:49.904 – 01:16:54.964] Now we're gonna go over, uh, to a green page again. [01:16:54.964 – 01:16:55.194] And Mr.

[01:16:55.194 – 01:16:58.404] Schaeberg, this is, uh, one of his timelines. [01:16:58.404 – 01:17:09.284] In M. of 19, uh, 38, having collected just one contribution in the past seven months, Bill begins writing Bill's Story and There is a Solution, [01:17:09.284 – 01:17:10.884] primarily as promotion pieces. [01:17:10.884 – 01:17:20.584] In J. of s- 17th, 1938, the first copies of these two chapters are sent out in an effort to raise money from a New York banker. [01:17:20.584 – 01:17:27.704] July of t- 27th, uh, Bill spends the month of July collecting favorable testimonials about A.A.'s success. [01:17:27.704 – 01:17:29.673] In A., uh, Bill sends Dr. [01:17:29.673 – 01:17:34.504] Bob advice on how the Akron people should write their stories for the book.

[01:17:34.504 – 01:17:36.924] September 28th, Bill sends Dr. [01:17:36.924 – 01:17:41.284] Bob the first drafts of More about Alcoholism and We Agnostics. [01:17:41.284 – 01:17:47.114] So back to, uh, Bill's, uh, Bill W.'s story. [01:17:47.114 – 01:17:57.444] He said, "So one day in August 1938, I produced at a foundation meeting a couple of chapters of a proposed book along with some recommendations of a couple doctors [01:17:57.444 – 01:18:00.264] down at Johns H. to try to put the bite on the rich. [01:18:00.264 – 01:18:03.464] And we still had these two book chapters kicking around. [01:18:03.464 – 01:18:13.544] And, uh, Frank A. said, "Well, now I know the religious editor down there at Harper's, an old friend of mine, Gene E.." He said, "Why don't you take these

[01:18:13.544 – 01:18:21.764] two books chapters, your story and the introduction to the book down there, and show them to Gene and see what he thinks about them." So I took the chapters down. [01:18:21.764 – 01:18:26.884] To my great surprise, Gene, who was to become a great friend of ours, looked at the chapters and said, "Why, Mr. [01:18:26.884 – 01:18:36.924] W., could you write a whole book like this?" "Well," I said, "sure, sure." Well, there was more talk about it. [01:18:36.924 – 01:18:38.384] I guess he went in and showed it to Mr. [01:18:38.384 – 01:18:39.884] C., the big boss. [01:18:39.884 – 01:18:41.404] Another meeting was had. [01:18:41.404 – 01:18:51.424] The upshot was Harper's intimated that they would pay me, as a budding author, $1,500 in advance for royalties." Down at the bottom there it says, "At

[01:18:51.424 – 01:18:57.384] this point, the book project really began." So I began, uh… [01:18:57.384 – 01:18:59.244] So I had a guy helping me on this thing. [01:18:59.244 – 01:19:04.304] He had red hair and 10 times, uh, my energy, and he was some promoter. [01:19:04.304 – 01:19:06.703] He said, "Bill, this is something. [01:19:06.703 – 01:19:10.524] Come, come on with me." We walk into a stationary store. [01:19:10.524 – 01:19:12.744] We buy a pad of blank stock certificates. [01:19:12.744 – 01:19:21.384] We write a- across the top of them, "Works P. Company, par value $25." So we take the pads of these stock certificates.

[01:19:21.384 – 01:19:23.824] Of course, we didn't bother to incorporate it. [01:19:23.824 – 01:19:25.384] That didn't happen for several years. [01:19:25.384 – 01:19:28.984] We took this pad of stock certificates to the first A.A. [01:19:28.984 – 01:19:32.704] meeting, where you shouldn't mix money with spirituality. [01:19:32.704 – 01:19:35.744] We said to the drunks, "Look, this thing is gonna be a cinch. [01:19:35.744 – 01:19:38.554] Parker will take a third of this thing for services rendered. [01:19:38.554 – 01:19:47.604] I, the author, will take a third for services rendered, and you can have a third of these stock certificates par 25 if you'll just start paying up on your stock.

[01:19:47.604 – 01:19:49.804] You only want one s- share? [01:19:49.804 – 01:19:57.104] It's only $5 a month, five months, see?" The drunks all gave us this stony look that said, "What the hell? [01:19:57.104 – 01:20:06.344] You mean to say you're only asking us to buy stock in a book you ain't wr- that ain't written already?" So anyway, back to Bill S.. [01:20:06.344 – 01:20:09.804] Uh, the original ce- certificates of course were not for Works P.. [01:20:10.436 – 01:20:18.676] As B. consistently reported, but for the 100-man corporation, the name not found in most of the histories and biographies. [01:20:18.676 – 01:20:25.236] The name Works P. didn't make its appearance until February 14th of 1939. [01:20:25.236 – 01:20:32.176] Back to Bill W., he says, so we've been looking at the printing cost, boys.

[01:20:32.176 – 01:20:37.356] We got a book, you know, 400, 450 pages, ought to sell for about 350. [01:20:37.356 – 01:20:46.156] Now, back in those days, we found on inquiry that a 350 book could be printed for 35 cents, making a 1,000% profit. [01:20:46.156 – 01:20:49.696] Of course, we didn't mention the other expenses, just the printing costs. [01:20:49.696 – 01:20:51.796] So, boys, just think on it. [01:20:51.796 – 01:20:56.356] When these books move out in the carload, we will be printing them for 35 cents. [01:20:56.356 – 01:20:59.076] We'll be selling them direct mail for 350. [01:20:59.076 – 01:21:00.056] How can you lose?

[01:21:00.056 – 01:21:02.936] The drunks still gave us this stony stare. [01:21:02.936 – 01:21:04.116] No salt. [01:21:04.116 – 01:21:07.936] Well, we figured we had to have a better argument than that. [01:21:07.936 – 01:21:09.776] Harper said it was a good book. [01:21:09.776 – 01:21:13.076] You can print them for 35 cents and sell them for 350. [01:21:13.076 – 01:21:20.506] But how are we going to convince the drunks that we could move carloads, lots of these, millions of dollars? [01:21:20.506 – 01:21:25.316] Of course, when Bill's talking about carloads, he's not talking about a Volkswagen B..

[01:21:25.316 – 01:21:29.796] He's talking about railroad cars full of these things that they're going to sell. [01:21:29.796 – 01:21:30.836] Think big. [01:21:30.836 – 01:21:33.576] Thank you, Hank P.. [01:21:33.576 – 01:21:36.316] Anyway, so we get to the idea. [01:21:36.316 – 01:21:40.716] We go up to Reader's Digest, and we got this appointment with Mr. [01:21:40.716 – 01:21:42.476] Kenneth P., the managing editor. [01:21:42.476 – 01:21:45.136] We dwelt upon our friendship with Mr.

[01:21:45.136 – 01:21:50.626] R. and Harry E. F. and said, we were wondering, Mr. [01:21:50.626 – 01:21:55.016] P., if this wouldn't be a matter of tremendous interest to the Reader's Digest. [01:21:55.016 – 01:21:56.556] And Mr. [01:21:56.556 – 01:21:59.056] P. said, this sounds extremely interesting. [01:21:59.056 – 01:22:00.096] I like this idea. [01:22:00.096 – 01:22:03.596] Well, I think it'll be absolutely ideal piece for the Digest. [01:22:03.596 – 01:22:05.666] Why, Mr.

[01:22:05.666 – 01:22:09.846] P. said, I am sure the Digest would like a thing like this. [01:22:09.846 – 01:22:10.856] Mr. [01:22:10.856 – 01:22:13.636] W., I'll take it up with the editorial board. [01:22:13.636 – 01:22:16.976] And when the time is right, you get all ready to shoot. [01:22:16.976 – 01:22:19.496] Come on up, and we'll put on a special feature writer. [01:22:19.496 – 01:22:26.416] Down further, then we went back to the drunks and said, now look, boys, there are positively millions in this. [01:22:26.416 – 01:22:27.716] How can you miss?

[01:22:27.716 – 01:22:30.356] Harper says it's going to be a good book. [01:22:30.356 – 01:22:32.476] You buy them for 35 cents from the printer. [01:22:32.476 – 01:22:35.636] You sell them for 350, the Reader's Digest. [01:22:35.636 – 01:22:39.646] And how can you, after all, we only need 4,000 or 5,000 bucks. [01:22:39.646 – 01:22:48.976] So we began to sell shares, not yet in Works P., not yet incorporated, par value $25,000, $5 a month. [01:22:48.976 – 01:22:51.996] We sold a few shares to non-alcoholics. [01:22:51.996 – 01:23:02.046] And my promoter friend who was to get a one-third interest was a very important man in this transaction because he went out and kept collecting the money from the drunks so that little Ruthie H.

[01:23:02.046 – 01:23:08.856] and I could keep working on the book and so Lois could have some groceries, even though she was still working in that department store. [01:23:08.856 – 01:23:12.896] So the preparation started and some more chapters were done. [01:23:12.896 – 01:23:17.776] And we went into AA meetings in New York with these chapters in the rough, chapters in the rough. [01:23:17.776 – 01:23:20.435] But it wasn't like chicken in the rough. [01:23:20.435 – 01:23:23.176] Boys didn't eat those chapters up at all. [01:23:23.176 – 01:23:25.536] By the way, I had to look that up. [01:23:25.536 – 01:23:35.616] Chicken in the rough, Bill's referring to, if not the first, chicken in the rough was one of the very first chicken, fried chicken franchises

[01:23:35.616 – 01:23:36.236] in the world. [01:23:36.236 – 01:23:40.216] And it had just started a couple years before and it was very popular. [01:23:40.216 – 01:23:44.776] But it wasn't like, it wasn't popular like chicken in the rough. [01:23:44.776 – 01:23:46.676] The boys didn't eat those chapters up at all. [01:23:46.676 – 01:23:50.936] I suddenly discovered that I was in this terrific whirlpool of arguments. [01:23:50.936 – 01:23:53.456] I was just the umpire. [01:23:53.456 – 01:24:01.056] I finally had to stipulate, well, boys, over here you got the Holy R. who say we need all the good old-fashioned stuff in the book.

[01:24:01.056 – 01:24:05.776] Over here you tell me we've got to have a psychological book and that never cured anybody. [01:24:05.776 – 01:24:08.596] And they didn't do very much with drugs and the missions. [01:24:08.596 – 01:24:12.516] So I guess you'll have to leave me just to be the umpire. [01:24:12.516 – 01:24:18.196] So we fought, bled, and died our way through one chapter after another. [01:24:18.196 – 01:24:25.816] We sent them out to Akron and they were peddled around and there were terrific hassles about what should go in this book and what not. [01:24:25.816 – 01:24:33.896] Meanwhile, we sent drunks off to write their stories and where we had newspaper people to write the stories for them to go in the back of the book. [01:24:33.896 – 01:24:40.296] We had an idea that we'd have a text and all and then we'd have stories all about the drunks who were staying sober.

[01:24:40.296 – 01:24:42.416] We're going to interrupt Bill W. [01:24:42.416 – 01:24:44.136] here to listen to Bill S.. [01:24:44.136 – 01:24:47.896] This was in an interview that Bill S. gave. [01:24:47.896 – 01:24:55.856] The question they asked him was, I've heard the stories in the big book about the efforts of AA pioneers recording their shared experiences. [01:24:55.856 – 01:24:57.036] Bill W. [01:24:57.036 – 01:25:06.806] said that he was less an author and more of an umpire with members arguing, deliberating, and carving out Alcoholics Anonymous together chapter by chapter, line by line. [01:25:06.806 – 01:25:14.086] Is this story of an authorial we a mischaracterization of how the big book was written?

[01:25:14.086 – 01:25:18.186] And Bill S. says, Bill is writing back and forth to Dr. [01:25:18.186 – 01:25:20.166] Bob and sending him draft chapters. [01:25:20.166 – 01:25:25.956] By the time of the third letter, W. writes, I'm having a hard time getting input here in New York, Bob. [01:25:25.956 – 01:25:29.926] I'm glad you like the chapters, but I need some critical feedback. [01:25:30.576 – 01:25:32.136] Bill gets zero from Ohio. [01:25:32.136 – 01:25:41.136] I think one of the reasons that Bill was having a hard time getting feedback was despite his protestations, W. didn't do very well with input. [01:25:41.136 – 01:25:51.196] Bill said proudly that despite adding as we understood him, and taking on our knees out of step seven, the steps remained exactly as he'd wrote them, as he wrote

[01:25:51.196 – 01:25:51.456] them. [01:25:51.456 – 01:25:56.836] Bill was fighting a rearguard action all the time because people did want to change it. [01:25:56.836 – 01:25:58.276] Dr. [01:25:58.276 – 01:26:08.625] H. famously reviewed the Big Book with many criticisms, saying, "You've got to take all the you out and replace it with we." So B. Shayberg says, "Late in my research, [01:26:08.625 – 01:26:16.676] I stumbled across a letter Hank P. wrote 17 days before the book came out saying, 'Bill, you've got to make these changes. [01:26:16.676 – 01:26:24.696] If you don't, I'll form a committee and we'll make them for you.' It was a huge power play by Hank to get what he thought had to be done in the book. [01:26:24.696 – 01:26:29.216] Bill finally conceded that he didn't want it, but he didn't want it…

[01:26:29.216 – 01:26:30.936] conceded, but he didn't want to do it. [01:26:30.936 – 01:26:40.976] This is one example of how resistant Bill W. was with anybody messing with anything he'd written." So, uh, the question is, so the Big Book [01:26:40.976 – 01:26:42.316] isn't the work of a collective? [01:26:42.316 – 01:26:48.776] The 100 men who argued about the book in AA meetings, blood on the floor, it didn't happen. [01:26:48.776 – 01:26:59.016] It did in fact happen out at A- Hank P.'s honor dealer's office d- between Hank, Fitz M., and Bill arguing about what should and shouldn't be in the book. [01:26:59.016 – 01:27:00.196] It didn't happen in meetings. [01:27:00.196 – 01:27:02.276] It did happen in a New Jersey office.

[01:27:02.276 – 01:27:06.296] Uh, I'm gonna skip this. [01:27:06.296 – 01:27:09.356] Uh, November 3rd, uh, three more chapters are sent to Dr. [01:27:09.356 – 01:27:09.916] Bob. [01:27:09.916 – 01:27:13.316] I'm turning this stuff out as fast as I can. [01:27:13.316 – 01:27:18.296] Um, now we're gonna go back to, uh, Bill, uh, W.'s story. [01:27:18.296 – 01:27:28.416] "And so then came the night when we were up around, uh, uh, uh, chapter five, and, and you know I've gone on about myself, which was natural after all." [01:27:28.416 – 01:27:30.516] Uh, Bill's story.

[01:27:30.516 – 01:27:41.396] "And then the little introductory chapter, and we dealt with the agnostic, and we described alcoholism, but boy, we finally got up to the point where we really had to say what the book was all about, and [01:27:41.396 – 01:27:42.496] how this deal works. [01:27:42.496 – 01:27:46.476] As I told you, this was a six, this was a six-step program then. [01:27:46.476 – 01:27:53.336] On this particular evening, I was lying in bed on Clinton S. wondering what the deuce this next chapter would be about. [01:27:53.336 – 01:28:00.196] The idea came to me, well, we need a definite statement of concrete principles that these drunks can't wiggle out of. [01:28:00.196 – 01:28:02.696] Can't be any wiggling out of this deal at all. [01:28:02.696 – 01:28:07.856] And this six-step program had two big gaps in between they'll wiggle out of.

[01:28:07.856 – 01:28:15.756] Moreover, if this book goes out to distant readers, they have got to have an absolutely explicit program by which to go. [01:28:15.756 – 01:28:26.316] This was while I was thinking about these thoughts while my imaginary ulcer was paining me, while I was mad as hell at these drunks because the money was coming in too slow. [01:28:26.316 – 01:28:28.136] Some had the stock and weren't paying up. [01:28:28.136 – 01:28:39.396] A couple of guys came in and they gave me a big argument, and we yelled and shouted, and I finally went down and laid on my bed with my ulcer and I said, 'Poor me.'" Wait [01:28:39.396 – 01:28:39.756] a minute. [01:28:39.756 – 01:28:41.656] One more interruption. [01:28:41.656 – 01:28:43.856] Did B. W. say six steps?

[01:28:43.856 – 01:28:51.216] In this other interview, uh, Bill S. has asked, "Pass It On gets referenced in AA meetings. [01:28:51.216 – 01:29:00.036] It talks about a variety of six-step programs being practiced." Uh, when did this, the, the story of six steps first start getting told? [01:29:00.036 – 01:29:02.456] 1950. [01:29:02.456 – 01:29:10.116] And I think maybe he's found something in the late '40s by now, but anyway, that's the first evidence I could find of him telling that story. [01:29:10.116 – 01:29:14.036] The six-step story morphs from 1950 to 1951. [01:29:14.036 – 01:29:24.456] Uh, down there in the middle of that paragraph it says, "There are 28 stories of alcoholics in the back of the first edition Big Book written by people from Ohio [01:29:24.456 – 01:29:30.396] and New York." Now, you would think that if there was a six-step program, people would be talking about it.

[01:29:30.396 – 01:29:31.716] Somebody would be talking. [01:29:31.716 – 01:29:37.136] Most of them would be talking about working this step or that one, but read the original stories. [01:29:37.136 – 01:29:39.416] Zero for 28, right? [01:29:39.416 – 01:29:40.996] Exactly. [01:29:40.996 – 01:29:42.596] Zero for 28. [01:29:42.596 – 01:29:48.736] The common theme is that they were powerless, they turned their lives over to God, and they stopped drinking. [01:29:48.736 – 01:29:53.616] No six-step program written about before 1939.

[01:29:53.616 – 01:30:03.376] So in early '38, Bill writes the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous in the midst of one of his imaginary, uh, ulcer attacks. [01:30:03.376 – 01:30:10.156] So this is Bill, Bill's, Bill W.'s story of how he wrote the 12 steps. [01:30:10.156 – 01:30:20.336] "There was a pad of paper by the bed, and I reached for that and said, 'You've got to break this program up into small pieces so they can't wiggle out.' So I started writing, trying [01:30:20.336 – 01:30:29.896] to bust it up into little pieces, and when I got the pieces set down on that piece of yellow paper, I put numbers on them and was rather agreeably surprised when it came out to 12. [01:30:29.896 – 01:30:38.655] I said, 'That's a good significant figure in Christianity and mystic lore.' Then I noticed that instead of leaving the God idea to last, I'd got it up front. [01:30:38.655 – 01:30:40.656] But I didn't pay much attention to that. [01:30:40.656 – 01:30:42.476] It looked pretty good.

[01:30:42.476 – 01:30:43.976] Well, the next meeting comes along. [01:30:43.976 – 01:30:51.026] I've gone on beyond the steps, trying to amplify them in the rest of that chapter to the meeting, and boy, pandemonium br-" [01:30:51.216 – 01:30:51.796] Broke loose. [01:30:51.796 – 01:30:54.136] What do you mean by changing the program? [01:30:54.136 – 01:30:54.876] What about this? [01:30:54.876 – 01:30:55.576] What about that? [01:30:55.576 – 01:30:57.176] This thing is overloaded with God.

[01:30:57.176 – 01:30:58.676] We don't like this. [01:30:58.676 – 01:31:01.156] You've got those guys on, these guys on their knees. [01:31:01.156 – 01:31:02.296] Stand them up. [01:31:02.296 – 01:31:05.596] A lot of these drunks are scared to death of being godly. [01:31:05.596 – 01:31:08.436] Let's take God out of it entirely. [01:31:08.436 – 01:31:12.116] Out of that terrific hassle came the 12 steps. [01:31:12.116 – 01:31:18.136] That argument caused the in- introduction of the phrase which has been a lifesaver to thousands.

[01:31:18.136 – 01:31:19.816] It was certainly none of my doing. [01:31:19.816 – 01:31:25.856] I was on the pious side then, you see, still suffering from this big hot, hot flash of mine. [01:31:25.856 – 01:31:31.616] The idea of God as you understand Him came out of that perfectly ferocious argument, and we put that in. [01:31:31.616 – 01:31:35.166] Well, little by little, uh, things ground on. [01:31:35.166 – 01:31:43.716] Little by little, drunks put in money, and we kept an office open in Newark, which was the office of a defunct, uh, business where I tried to establish my friend. [01:31:43.716 – 01:31:47.696] The money ran low at times, and Ruthie H. worked for no pay. [01:31:47.696 – 01:31:51.416] Well, we gave her plenty of stock in the Works P., of course.

[01:31:51.416 – 01:31:56.796] All you had to do was tear, tear it off the pad, par 25, have a week's salary, dear. [01:31:56.796 – 01:32:04.976] This is a picture of what the, uh, uh, the building looked like, uh, in years past. [01:32:04.976 – 01:32:12.216] This is what it, uh, looked like in November of 2019 when, uh, uh, I went to see it. [01:32:12.216 – 01:32:20.706] If you look, there's a, uh, plaque on the left side, uh, as you're looking at it, the left side of the door, uh, to that building. [01:32:20.706 – 01:32:31.076] And the plaque says, "It was at this site in 1938 on the sixth floor of the Calumet B. at 17 William S. in the office of Honor D. [01:32:31.076 – 01:32:35.116] that the pioneers of a fledgling fellowship wrote the book Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:32:35.116 – 01:32:38.456] From this beginning, a worldwide society would take its name.

[01:32:38.456 – 01:32:50.236] Alcoholics Anonymous has since helped millions of men and women recover from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body known as alcoholism." Now [01:32:50.236 – 01:32:55.516] we go back to, uh, Bill W., and he says, "So we get around to January '39. [01:32:55.516 – 01:32:58.356] Somebody said, 'Hadn't we better test this thing out? [01:32:58.356 – 01:33:06.556] Hadn't we better make a pre-publication copy, a multilithe or mimeographed copy of this text and a few of these stories that come in? [01:33:06.556 – 01:33:16.556] Try it out on the preacher, on the doctor, or the Catholic C. on Publications, psychiatrists, policemen, fish wives, housewives, drunks, everybody, just to see [01:33:16.556 – 01:33:26.236] if we've got anything that goes against the grain any place, and also to find out if we can't get some better ideas here.' So at considerable expense, we got this pre-publication copy made. [01:33:26.236 – 01:33:29.956] We peddled it around, and comments came back, some of them very helpful.

[01:33:29.956 – 01:33:40.136] Went, among, uh, other places, to the Catholic C. on Publications in New York, and at that time we had only one Catholic member to take it there, and he'd just gotten out of the asylum." [01:33:40.136 – 01:33:44.636] This is just a little, uh, note. [01:33:44.636 – 01:33:49.756] Uh, this is not, uh, from Bill W., but the note on the, uh, some additions. [01:33:49.756 – 01:33:57.836] In J. of '39, uh, Bill sent out the 400 manuscripts to members, friends, and other allies for comments and evaluation. [01:33:57.836 – 01:34:00.146] These were returned with only a few suggestions. [01:34:00.146 – 01:34:02.176] However, Hank P.'s friend, Dr. [01:34:02.176 – 01:34:11.116] H., the psychiatrist from Montclair, New Jersey, recommended toning down the use of musts to we ought or we should.

[01:34:11.116 – 01:34:17.516] Also, instead of the authoritarian word you, to use the word we. [01:34:17.516 – 01:34:17.866] Dr. [01:34:17.866 – 01:34:19.196] S. and Dr. [01:34:19.196 – 01:34:22.576] Tee- T. offered similar advice. [01:34:22.576 – 01:34:29.336] After all, many of the Skid R. alcoholics had been repeatedly badgered by do-gooder advice at the missions. [01:34:29.336 – 01:34:31.796] So back to Bill W.'s story. [01:34:31.796 – 01:34:33.956] The book passed inspection, and the stories came in.

[01:34:33.956 – 01:34:35.046] Somehow we got them edited. [01:34:35.046 – 01:34:41.396] Somehow we got the galleys together and up to printing time, and the drunks had been slow at those prescription payments. [01:34:41.396 – 01:34:47.716] Uh, I was able to go up to Charlie T., where old Doc S. held forth. [01:34:47.716 – 01:34:52.936] Charlie believed in us, so we had put the slug onto Charlie for 2,500 bucks. [01:34:52.936 – 01:34:54.936] Charlie didn't want any stocks. [01:34:54.936 – 01:34:57.376] He wanted a promissory note on the book not yet written. [01:34:57.376 – 01:35:03.996] So we got the 2,500 from Charlie routed through the Alcoholic F. so that it could be tax-exempt.

[01:35:03.996 – 01:35:14.196] Um, in yellow, we still had to get this printed, so we, so we go up to Cornwall P., which is the largest printer in the world, where we'd made previous [01:35:14.196 – 01:35:16.176] inquiries, and we asked about printing. [01:35:16.176 – 01:35:21.276] And they said they'd be glad to do it, and how many books, uh, would we like? [01:35:21.276 – 01:35:23.416] We said that that was hard to estimate. [01:35:23.416 – 01:35:28.996] Of course, our membership's very small at the present, and we wouldn't sell many of the membership after all. [01:35:28.996 – 01:35:33.616] The Reader's Digest is going to print a plug about it to its 2 million. [01:35:33.616 – 01:35:36.756] This, this book should go out in the carloads when it's printed.

[01:35:36.756 – 01:35:44.675] And, uh, going to Bill S. on, uh, on this particular part of the story. [01:35:44.675 – 01:35:48.916] Says, well, a little, uh, it was a little more interesting than that, right, Bill S.? [01:35:48.916 – 01:35:59.156] So B. S says, "Bill W, Hank P, Ruth H., and Dorothy S. traveled to Cornwall, New York, to make the final edits [01:35:59.156 – 01:35:59.816] to the Big Book. [01:35:59.816 – 01:36:08.716] Hank has many suggestions for last-minute changes." So the an- annotated, uh, manuscript copy goes to the printer. [01:36:08.716 – 01:36:11.746] With this fully annotated copy- [01:36:11.908 – 01:36:22.478] in hand, Bill, Hank and Ruth, Bill, Hank and Ruth set out in, uh, Hank's car on Wednesday, March 29th, and drove 60 miles north to Cornwall, New York,

[01:36:22.478 – 01:36:23.728] where the book was to be printed. [01:36:23.728 – 01:36:33.728] "They all went," Ruth said, "because we couldn't afford anyone to correct the pages as they came off, edit them, and, and so the three of us had gone up to work on that." While [01:36:33.728 – 01:36:44.537] the part about them not being able to afford a professional proofreader is certainly true, it's also clear that no one but these three would've been able to decide what was right and what was wrong [01:36:44.537 – 01:36:46.338] in that growing stack of proof sheets. [01:36:46.338 – 01:36:51.648] For anyone else to attempt to read and correct those pages was simply out of the question. [01:36:51.648 – 01:36:55.228] Um, we'll go on, uh… [01:36:55.228 – 01:36:55.988] Ah, well.

[01:36:55.988 – 01:37:06.128] Bill claimed that Dorothy S., who'd been so enthusiastically promoting the multi-lith copies in Cleveland just a few weeks earlier, joined them on this drive, but Ruth H. tells [01:37:06.128 – 01:37:06.908] a different story. [01:37:06.908 – 01:37:10.788] And for all its detail, a much more plausible story about that day. [01:37:10.788 – 01:37:20.788] And, uh, and she says, "We'd gone up, the three of us, uh, to Cornwall to do this proofreading," and Dorothy S. had a [01:37:20.788 – 01:37:24.768] sister in the Bronx, New York, and she'd come to visit the sister and had met Bill. [01:37:24.768 – 01:37:28.888] And she called Bill up and said she was in town and she would like to see him. [01:37:28.888 – 01:37:33.128] And he said, "Up at Cornwall," he said, "Up at Cornwall.

[01:37:33.128 – 01:37:34.668] Come on up," you know. [01:37:34.668 – 01:37:38.448] And I must say, like most men of good taste, Bill liked pretty girls, too. [01:37:38.448 – 01:37:46.588] And Dorothy was a lovely, warm, just humorous, full of humor, full of laughter person, person, and he liked Dorothy very much. [01:37:46.588 – 01:37:56.648] "So there we were, the four of us." Whether D. rode up with them or took a later train, Bill and Hank arrived in Cornwall and proudly presented their marked-up [01:37:56.648 – 01:37:57.848] multi-lith copy. [01:37:57.848 – 01:38:00.728] Imagine giving something that looked like that to the printer. [01:38:00.728 – 01:38:11.128] Anyway, the print manager was shocked with what they handed him, telling him that he couldn't possibly set type from those impossible-to-read and disorderly pages.

[01:38:11.128 – 01:38:17.868] He insisted they return to New York, retype the entire manuscript, and then come back to Cornwall another day. [01:38:17.868 – 01:38:27.908] P., ever impatient to start selling books, went into his high-pressure sales mode, defending his handiwork, and finally convinced the poor man to [01:38:27.908 – 01:38:34.228] begin setting the type and galley proofs on the condition that the party would correct them on the spot as they came off the press. [01:38:34.228 – 01:38:35.788] And so they did. [01:38:35.788 – 01:38:38.928] When B. invited Dorothy to… [01:38:38.928 – 01:38:44.928] Well, uh, in the 1954 in yellow there we're gonna read, uh, as soon as it comes up on the screen. [01:38:44.928 – 01:38:51.148] Um, the spur-of-the-moment invitation landed Dorothy S. right in the middle of the final editing.

[01:38:51.148 – 01:38:59.568] In a 1954 intervers- interview, she provides an animated eyewitness account of exactly how those last-minute changes were made. [01:38:59.568 – 01:39:02.428] Speaking to Bill she said, "I can still see you. [01:39:02.428 – 01:39:07.928] We were reading parts, different phrases to you, and you would weigh those phrases. [01:39:07.928 – 01:39:09.928] Did this really say what you meant? [01:39:09.928 – 01:39:11.308] Would it really help somebody? [01:39:11.308 – 01:39:14.628] Would it offend this group, that group, or the other groups? [01:39:14.628 – 01:39:21.708] And after one of these discussions, Hank was sort of pounding at you that a certain phrase was perhaps too strongly put.

[01:39:21.708 – 01:39:31.828] I can still hear you say, 'Well, I don't want the thing to be so insipid that we don't, that they don't get the idea of what they have to do to get sober.'" Well, the story gets [01:39:31.828 – 01:39:35.868] even more interesting and steamier from here, but that's another story. [01:39:35.868 – 01:39:46.088] For more of the sleeping arrangements, how Charlie T. paid for the stay, and the footnote information, you have to buy Bill's book or keep following us at this Thursday [01:39:46.088 – 01:39:51.328] meeting reading of Writing the Big Book: The Creation of A.A. [01:39:51.328 – 01:39:56.208] So anyway, the, uh, this old printer, uh, was none other than dear old Mr. [01:39:56.208 – 01:39:58.458] B., one of our Christian friends. [01:39:58.458 – 01:39:59.108] And Mr.

[01:39:59.108 – 01:40:01.708] B. said, "How much of a down payment are you gonna make? [01:40:01.708 – 01:40:05.408] How many books?" "Well, we'll be conservative. [01:40:05.408 – 01:40:07.438] Just print 3,000 to start with." Mr. [01:40:07.438 – 01:40:10.588] B. asked us what we were going to use for money. [01:40:10.588 – 01:40:17.388] Uh, we said that we wouldn't need much, just a few hundred dollars on account would be all right. [01:40:17.388 – 01:40:22.248] I told you, after all, we're traveling in good company, friends of Mr. [01:40:22.248 – 01:40:23.788] R. and all that.

[01:40:23.788 – 01:40:30.748] So on April 10th, 1939, 4,650 copies of the book Alcoholics Anonymous are printed. [01:40:30.748 – 01:40:40.968] 100 copies are delivered to Bill and Hank, with s- several more copies going to Willard R. and Frank A., the R. associates that Bill and Hank had been working [01:40:40.968 – 01:40:41.228] with. [01:40:41.228 – 01:40:46.027] More copies of the book will be released, but only after more payment has been made. [01:40:46.027 – 01:40:49.048] Just I find this interesting. [01:40:49.048 – 01:40:57.118] This is on, if you look on the right-hand, uh, well, on the left-hand side there, it, this, uh, Bill wrote this in '57. [01:40:57.118 – 01:41:01.588] Uh, it's Stepping S., and he says, uh, "This was the very first A.A.

[01:41:01.588 – 01:41:03.028] book off the press. [01:41:03.028 – 01:41:13.108] We, uh, used a thick paper to make the alcoholics feel they were getting, uh, their money's worth." Uh, a little more on the romantic, [01:41:13.108 – 01:41:15.228] uh, emotional side. [01:41:15.228 – 01:41:18.268] On the, on the main page there it says, "To L.. [01:41:18.268 – 01:41:25.428] Uh, one whose loving care and fortitude in our dark days together made these pages possible. [01:41:25.428 – 01:41:30.428] So to her, this first book of the first edition is lovingly and thankfully given. [01:41:30.428 – 01:41:30.828] Bill."

[01:41:34.438 – 01:41:36.808] The best-selling book that saves lives. [01:41:36.808 – 01:41:46.808] In 2011, Time M. included Alcoholics Anonymous in its list of the 100 best and most influential books written since the magazine was founded in [01:41:46.808 – 01:41:47.848] 1923. [01:41:47.848 – 01:41:54.668] The following year, the Library of Congress selected The Big Book for its list of the 88 books that shaped America. [01:41:54.668 – 01:42:02.888] Despite never being on the bestseller list, Alcoholics Anonymous continues to be one of the best-selling books of all time. [01:42:02.888 – 01:42:10.827] Over the years, it has literally been printed by the carloads, and over 37 million copies have been sold as of this writing. [01:42:10.827 – 01:42:20.988] Book, uh, which has been translated into an impressive 70 languages still sells well in hard copy despite its ready availability online for free.

[01:42:20.988 – 01:42:31.008] Most important, however, is the fact that since it first published in early 1939, The [01:42:31.008 – 01:42:41.128] Big Book has shown millions of people a precise and proven path to continuous sobriety through a spiritual awakening, allowing them to live sane, fulfilling, and fruitful [01:42:41.128 – 01:42:42.608] lives without alcohol. [01:42:42.608 – 01:42:52.268] We have no idea how many millions of recoveries have been affected by Alcoholics Anonymous since the book was published, but if an exact number were known, it would be staggering. [01:42:52.268 – 01:42:58.588] AA currently reports the fellowship as well over 2,100,000 sober and active members. [01:42:58.588 – 01:43:04.368] It was the writing and publication of The Big Book more than anything else that made all of that possible. [01:43:04.368 – 01:43:14.488] And now to finish up with, uh, Bill W.'s closing, uh, uh, lines of his, uh, talk, uh, about the creation of The Big Book: "Such

[01:43:14.488 – 01:43:22.488] is the story of the preparation of the book Alcoholics Anonymous and of its subsequent effect you all, all have some notion. [01:43:22.488 – 01:43:29.948] The proceeds of the book have repeatedly saved the office in New York, but it isn't the money that has come out of it that matters. [01:43:29.948 – 01:43:40.528] It is the message that it carried that transcended the mountains and the sea, and is even at this moment lighting candles in the dark caverns [01:43:40.528 – 01:43:49.208] and on distant beaches." Bill W., 1954. [01:43:49.208 – 01:44:02.408] And [01:44:02.408 – 01:44:07.748] so that is my presentation of writing The Big Book, Bill W. [01:44:07.748 – 01:44:13.388] plus Bill W. and, uh, Bill S..

[01:44:13.388 – 01:44:19.648] So if, uh, anyone is interested, we'll have a question and answer period. [01:44:19.648 – 01:44:20.238] Thank you, Jim. [01:44:20.238 – 01:44:21.668] Now with respect to you, David. [01:44:21.668 – 01:44:23.028] Thank you, Jim W.. [01:44:23.028 – 01:44:24.608] Please unmute yourselves. [01:44:24.608 – 01:44:25.568] Thanks, Jim. [01:44:25.568 – 01:44:25.878] Wow, Jim.

[01:44:25.878 – 01:44:26.148] Thank you so much. [01:44:26.148 – 01:44:27.408] Thanks, Jim. [01:44:27.408 – 01:44:30.378] Great. [01:44:30.378 – 01:44:30.379] Thanks, Jim. [01:44:30.379 – 01:44:30.648] Great stuff. [01:44:30.648 – 01:44:31.948] Thank you very much. [01:44:31.948 – 01:44:32.808] Fantastic.

[01:44:32.808 – 01:44:32.838] Fantastic. [01:44:32.838 – 01:44:34.448] You're getting better at this, Jim. [01:44:34.448 – 01:44:34.878] Yeah. [01:44:34.878 – 01:44:36.308] Just great. [01:44:36.308 – 01:44:39.188] Well, you, you keep making me practice, David. [01:44:39.188 – 01:44:40.668] You keep making me practice. [01:44:40.668 – 01:44:43.788] Thank you, guys.

[01:44:43.788 – 01:44:45.628] Loved that so much. [01:44:45.628 – 01:44:49.288] Well, as Jim said, we're gonna have some Q&A, and Jim, I'll just do it. [01:44:49.288 – 01:44:51.048] Let, let you focus on the Q&A. [01:44:51.048 – 01:44:55.768] And if you'd like to raise your hand, and, uh, we'll do probably 20, 25 minutes of this, if you'd like. [01:44:55.768 – 01:44:58.948] So with that, please raise your hand and we'll call on you. [01:44:58.948 – 01:45:04.448] Okay. [01:45:04.448 – 01:45:06.668] Well, no queues?

[01:45:06.668 – 01:45:07.807] Not yet. [01:45:07.807 – 01:45:08.217] Not yet. [01:45:08.217 – 01:45:09.508] I think there's a lot of contemplation. [01:45:09.508 – 01:45:10.728] I can see the wheels in motion. [01:45:10.728 – 01:45:11.208] There we go. [01:45:11.208 – 01:45:11.808] There's Nathan. [01:45:11.808 – 01:45:12.548] Hello, Nathan.

[01:45:12.548 – 01:45:16.028] Thanks. [01:45:16.028 – 01:45:26.188] I just one little thought, which is really Shafer's, but I agree with him, and I really did before I read what he wrote, but he made me understand it, and that is [01:45:26.188 – 01:45:36.288] somebody's got to do a responsible and scholarly and thorough biography of Hank P., and it ain't Shafer and it ain't me, but it's someone in this room. [01:45:36.288 – 01:45:43.328] So I'll just leave you with the question of who's going to work on this one immediately. [01:45:43.328 – 01:45:44.068] Thank you. [01:45:44.068 – 01:45:45.828] Thank you, Nathan. [01:45:45.828 – 01:45:50.128] That's something that, uh, Bill S. is always, uh, promoting also.

[01:45:50.128 – 01:46:00.228] Actually, two areas of, of research that Bill S. also always mentions is, one, a definitive story of, uh, of Hank P., and the other is, uh, [01:46:00.228 – 01:46:03.468] of the Knickerbocker H., uh, Hospital. [01:46:03.468 – 01:46:05.608] So either of those. [01:46:05.608 – 01:46:08.008] Come on, guys, you got to jump in. [01:46:08.008 – 01:46:09.088] Anyway. [01:46:09.088 – 01:46:10.528] Thank you. [01:46:10.528 – 01:46:10.758] Any other questions?

[01:46:10.758 – 01:46:12.288] Thank you for that, Nathan. [01:46:12.288 – 01:46:19.728] Any reflections, Stephen? [01:46:19.728 – 01:46:28.228] What about Bobby B.? [01:46:28.228 – 01:46:31.548] Don't we need to- Susan in Iceland … [01:46:31.548 – 01:46:32.208] do we need to also- Hello, Susan. [01:46:32.208 – 01:46:32.948] Yeah, hi. [01:46:32.948 – 01:46:36.048] Don't we need to also c- uh, cover her?

[01:46:36.048 – 01:46:38.668] Who's this? [01:46:38.668 – 01:46:38.878] Bobby. [01:46:38.878 – 01:46:39.828] This is Bobby… [01:46:39.828 – 01:46:41.528] Oh, Bobby- Oh, Bobbi B.. [01:46:41.528 – 01:46:41.978] Bobbi. [01:46:41.978 – 01:46:42.888] Berger, not B.. [01:46:42.888 – 01:46:44.028] Yeah, Bobbi B..

[01:46:44.028 – 01:46:46.988] Uh, Gary, uh, Gary is working on… [01:46:46.988 – 01:46:52.628] He's done some, uh, some really good presentations lately, but he's working on, uh- [01:46:53.420 – 01:46:54.400] A definitive book. [01:46:54.400 – 01:47:00.990] I, I'm hoping that it'll, comes out this year on, uh, on Bobbie B., the fan- Hope and pray … [01:47:00.990 – 01:47:01.950] communicator. [01:47:01.950 – 01:47:03.580] Yeah, that, that, uh… [01:47:03.580 – 01:47:08.160] Yeah, definitely, uh, hopefully they'll- I knew that he had some…

[01:47:08.160 – 01:47:09.140] Yeah. [01:47:09.140 – 01:47:17.879] I, I didn't know he was writing a book about it, but I knew that he got a treasure trove of, uh, of personal letters from her grandchildren. [01:47:17.879 – 01:47:20.399] That was very interesting. [01:47:20.399 – 01:47:22.230] Yeah. [01:47:22.230 – 01:47:25.040] Between, uh, that Bill, uh, wrote to her. [01:47:25.040 – 01:47:26.480] That's right. [01:47:26.480 – 01:47:27.780] Bobbie B., yeah.

[01:47:27.780 – 01:47:30.000] Can I say something? [01:47:30.000 – 01:47:31.300] Yes, please do. [01:47:31.300 – 01:47:32.200] Um, thank you. [01:47:32.200 – 01:47:33.040] Jump in there. [01:47:33.040 – 01:47:39.680] Um, well, you know, I started the Big Book when I was about 17 years sober. [01:47:39.680 – 01:47:41.760] I was starting to think about drinking. [01:47:41.760 – 01:47:51.960] And it's come to me that what the Big Book does is it puts your own story in order and gets you to start thinking of other people instead of the poor

[01:47:51.960 – 01:47:52.420] mes. [01:47:52.420 – 01:47:59.020] And it gives you a quality product to carry to the other alcoholics. [01:47:59.020 – 01:47:59.140] Mm. [01:47:59.140 – 01:48:04.620] And, and, and that's, that's my view of the, the, the Big Book today. [01:48:04.620 – 01:48:13.100] And the way I get new members to, uh, go through the book with me is I say, "My sponsor says I have to read this some, to somebody. [01:48:13.100 – 01:48:17.650] Will you, will you let me read it to you?" And I bring them in that way, and I take them through the book. [01:48:17.650 – 01:48:17.910] Thank you.

[01:48:17.910 – 01:48:18.019] Thank you. [01:48:18.019 – 01:48:23.000] Well, well what we'll do, we're gonna have a meeting after the meeting, uh, shortly, if people want to get into that. [01:48:23.000 – 01:48:23.760] That's a good start. [01:48:23.760 – 01:48:25.660] Not, not dismissing that, but if anyone wants… [01:48:25.660 – 01:48:30.980] If, talk to Jim, uh, W. about Bill S. versus Bill W.. [01:48:30.980 – 01:48:37.880] Now we can go straight into the meeting after the meeting if no one wants to, um, make a comment on that. [01:48:37.880 – 01:48:38.760] Jim, Jim, you have them?

[01:48:38.760 – 01:48:39.710] I don't know what's going on, Jim. [01:48:39.710 – 01:48:42.500] I've never seen no questions come out of that presentation. [01:48:42.500 – 01:48:48.340] Well, I mean, we've been reading, writing the Big Book, and, and, uh, you know. [01:48:48.340 – 01:48:48.630] Mm. [01:48:48.630 – 01:48:50.700] So I, I'm not sure. [01:48:50.700 – 01:48:54.280] I'm sure a lot of people- I think you were probably very concise, weren't you? [01:48:54.280 – 01:48:56.120] W- would you think he was very precise?

[01:48:56.120 – 01:48:57.320] I think people are nodding. [01:48:57.320 – 01:48:58.110] You've covered a lot of… [01:48:58.110 – 01:48:58.879] Kit. [01:48:58.879 – 01:48:59.600] Hello, Kit. [01:48:59.600 – 01:48:59.960] Yes. [01:48:59.960 – 01:49:00.280] Hi. [01:49:00.280 – 01:49:01.370] That's what I wanted to say.

[01:49:01.370 – 01:49:03.569] It was a very concise, um, history. [01:49:03.569 – 01:49:08.100] I loved the presentation that you did, and you brought it down very, very shortly and very clear. [01:49:08.100 – 01:49:11.540] I love going over again all the history and all those pr- pivotal moments. [01:49:11.540 – 01:49:13.020] So thank you very much for your work, Jim. [01:49:13.020 – 01:49:14.000] Yeah. [01:49:14.000 – 01:49:14.560] Thank you. [01:49:14.560 – 01:49:15.350] Thanks, Kit.

[01:49:15.350 – 01:49:17.520] Thank you, Kit, for staying, for jump, jumping in there. [01:49:17.520 – 01:49:18.380] It's S. W. [01:49:18.380 – 01:49:18.470] Hi. [01:49:18.470 – 01:49:19.200] Hello, S.. [01:49:19.200 – 01:49:23.720] I'm an alcoholic, and my name is S.. [01:49:23.720 – 01:49:24.960] Thank you so much, family. [01:49:24.960 – 01:49:27.540] Bless your heart, Jim, and everyone who shared today.

[01:49:27.540 – 01:49:35.850] David, I, I think you are absolutely, uh, the Alex T. replacement Jeopardy's been looking for, for, really. [01:49:35.850 – 01:49:37.680] You're too kind, S.. [01:49:37.680 – 01:49:39.160] You're really too kind, but go ahead. [01:49:39.160 – 01:49:39.940] Keep going. [01:49:39.940 – 01:49:42.260] S.. [01:49:42.260 – 01:49:46.940] And I'm so glad Jim got to put it together in that format with the, the verses. [01:49:46.940 – 01:49:47.330] That was…

[01:49:47.330 – 01:49:57.400] You know, it's fun to have this program spoon, spoon-fed you with some humor and some interest and some, you know, uh, uh, some [01:49:57.400 – 01:49:57.800] color. [01:49:57.800 – 01:50:08.000] Um, I do want to say one thing popped out, and it was relevant to how these, you know, stories and how history's either spiced up or, or cloaked into [01:50:08.000 – 01:50:13.100] fabrications that are a stretch of the truth or imagination. [01:50:13.100 – 01:50:23.160] And it just made me think of this beautiful saying I heard, uh, uh, back, uh, 15 months ago when I was blessed to be brought in these rooms, family, and that was, "I want [01:50:23.160 – 01:50:25.729] to be beautifully flawed." Mm. [01:50:25.729 – 01:50:25.730] Yes.

[01:50:25.730 – 01:50:31.580] And by being beautifully flawed, we can go ahead and contest that, uh, we are not perfection. [01:50:31.580 – 01:50:41.820] But if we are beautifully flawed, uh, then that's a positive spin on such a, you know, a, a, a, a, a character, uh, defect [01:50:41.820 – 01:50:43.020] per se to have. [01:50:43.020 – 01:50:43.320] Mm-hmm. [01:50:43.320 – 01:50:46.340] Thank you for calling on me, David, and have a great rest of your day, family. [01:50:46.340 – 01:50:47.610] Thank you, S.. [01:50:47.610 – 01:50:48.479] Appreciate that.

[01:50:48.479 – 01:50:51.250] Uh, Hugh, Hugh H., our legacy group. [01:50:51.250 – 01:50:51.820] Hello, Hugh. [01:50:51.820 – 01:50:53.140] Yeah. [01:50:53.140 – 01:50:55.320] My name's Hugh, and I'm an alcoholic. [01:50:55.320 – 01:50:57.100] I finally came up with a question. [01:50:57.100 – 01:50:58.010] Oh, good man, Hugh. [01:50:58.010 – 01:51:00.440] Um, not because it wasn't…

[01:51:00.440 – 01:51:01.280] I mean, it's hard. [01:51:01.280 – 01:51:06.900] Not because it wasn't a good presentation, just it was so much and so good. [01:51:06.900 – 01:51:08.200] Thank you so much, Jim. [01:51:08.200 – 01:51:10.660] But I do have one question I came up with. [01:51:10.660 – 01:51:12.760] That talk by Bill W. [01:51:12.760 – 01:51:15.840] from 1954, is that available online? [01:51:15.840 – 01:51:16.840] Yes.

[01:51:16.840 – 01:51:17.460] Yeah. [01:51:17.460 – 01:51:20.860] Yeah, you can, uh, you can- Recovery Speakers? [01:51:20.860 – 01:51:23.440] Uh, oh. [01:51:23.440 – 01:51:27.120] Um, I don't know if it's, uh, if it- We can check that, Jim. [01:51:27.120 – 01:51:29.180] We can check that and shortly, Hugh, if you wish. [01:51:29.180 – 01:51:29.640] Yeah. [01:51:29.640 – 01:51:30.760] But we can check that.

[01:51:30.760 – 01:51:32.520] The transcript would be fine, too. [01:51:32.520 – 01:51:34.020] Is he talking about the transcript? [01:51:34.020 – 01:51:34.660] Okay. [01:51:34.660 – 01:51:36.440] We'll have a look for you shortly. [01:51:36.440 – 01:51:36.740] Okay. [01:51:36.740 – 01:51:37.140] Thank you. [01:51:37.140 – 01:51:40.220] It is available on recoveryspeakers.org.

[01:51:40.220 – 01:51:44.270] Um, if you look under Bill W- Thank you Oh, thank you, Gigi … [01:51:44.270 – 01:51:46.720] and scr- kind of scroll through. [01:51:46.720 – 01:51:55.420] But keep in mind that even though the talk was given June 1954, I think, in Texas S., it's- Yeah … [01:51:55.420 – 01:51:57.640] not, that's not the date that will come up. [01:51:57.640 – 01:52:04.320] I put in 1954 Bill W., and it took a bit to find it, but it is there. [01:52:04.320 – 01:52:06.220] Thank you. [01:52:06.220 – 01:52:07.490] Thank you, Gi- Yeah.

[01:52:07.490 – 01:52:07.820] Did you… [01:52:07.820 – 01:52:08.540] That was… [01:52:08.540 – 01:52:08.940] Yep. [01:52:08.940 – 01:52:10.020] Thank you, Gigi. [01:52:10.020 – 01:52:13.280] Thank you very much. [01:52:14.160 – 01:52:14.400] Okay. [01:52:14.400 – 01:52:16.980] Well, I guess we've mentioned next week we have chapter 19.

[01:52:16.980 – 01:52:18.300] We're going back into the book. [01:52:18.300 – 01:52:19.180] We're gonna hopefully… [01:52:19.180 – 01:52:21.240] Well, all things being well, we have Mr. [01:52:21.240 – 01:52:22.630] Schaerberg with us. [01:52:22.630 – 01:52:28.620] The family afterward and the authorship question, and we're in October to November 1938. [01:52:28.620 – 01:52:34.820] And he says that Bill takes on another persona, he says at the beginning of that. [01:52:34.820 – 01:52:35.250] A new persona.

[01:52:35.250 – 01:52:38.000] He's speaking in the voice of the families of Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:52:38.000 – 01:52:43.580] So he was the wives last time, and now he's going into being the family. [01:52:43.580 – 01:52:43.960] You know. [01:52:43.960 – 01:52:49.279] Okay, Jim, I think you're off the, off the hook here, Jim. [01:52:49.279 – 01:52:52.400] Um, we're gonna go- No problem … [01:52:52.400 – 01:52:57.460] close with a prayer, Jim, if you'd like to close the meeting for us, and we'll, um- All right. [01:52:57.460 – 01:53:01.240] Well, you know, I'll just, uh- Which we love hearing you read.

[01:53:01.240 – 01:53:03.540] It's wonderful you read, Jim … [01:53:03.540 – 01:53:09.800] just, uh, uh, this is, uh, Bill W.'s morning prayer. [01:53:09.800 – 01:53:17.300] Um, uh, obviously, uh, if you read how he types, uh, he obviously needed some proofreading. [01:53:17.300 – 01:53:19.640] This one did get proofread before. [01:53:19.640 – 01:53:29.940] But anyway, uh, this is Bill's morning prayer: O Lord, we thank thee that thou art, that we are from everlasting to everlasting. [01:53:29.940 – 01:53:36.080] Blessed be thy holy name and all thy benefactions to us of light, of love, and of service. [01:53:36.080 – 01:53:40.740] May we find and do thy will in good strength and good cheer today.

[01:53:40.740 – 01:53:50.799] May thy ever-present grace be discovered by family and friends, those here and those beyond, by our societies throughout the world, by men and women [01:53:50.800 – 01:53:54.280] everywhere, and among those who must lead in these troubled times. [01:53:54.280 – 01:54:01.660] O Lord, we know thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all glory, all power, all love. [01:54:01.660 – 01:54:04.240] Indeed, thou art everlasting love. [01:54:04.240 – 01:54:14.300] Accor- accordingly, thou hast fashioned for us a destiny passing through thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of thee and in no separation [01:54:14.300 – 01:54:15.460] between ourselves. [01:54:15.460 – 01:54:22.920] For all these great wonders, benefactions, and assurances, we now raise hearts and minds to thee, O Father of lights.

[01:54:22.920 – 01:54:26.940] We are filled with gratitude that shall be timeless. [01:54:26.940 – 01:54:30.540] Oh, thank you, Jim W.. [01:54:30.540 – 01:54:33.600] So let's hear once again for all those who shared today. [01:54:33.600 – 01:54:41.760] Lynn H., we started off with, then Andrea O, Kit R, Jay S., Joyce M., and Pat O., and finally Jim W.. [01:54:41.760 – 01:54:42.680] Thank you, everyone. [01:54:42.680 – 01:54:44.600] Amazing. [01:54:44.600 – 01:54:45.160] Wow.

[01:54:45.160 – 01:54:45.330] Thank you so much. [01:54:45.330 – 01:54:45.800] Thank you, everyone. [01:54:45.800 – 01:54:47.420] Thanks for a great meeting. [01:54:47.420 – 01:54:48.150] Thank you, everybody. [01:54:48.150 – 01:54:48.420] Thank you, everyone. [01:54:48.420 – 01:54:48.680] Much appreciation. [01:54:48.680 – 01:54:49.460] Good information.

[01:54:49.460 – 01:54:49.880] Great meeting. [01:54:49.880 – 01:54:50.630] Thanks, everybody. [01:54:50.630 – 01:54:51.160] Brilliant. [01:54:51.160 – 01:54:51.720] Thank you. [01:54:51.720 – 01:54:52.280] Thank you. [01:54:52.280 – 01:54:57.860] And I'm gonna put, uh, if you wanna contact Bill S., r- you can get him on writingthebigbook.com. [01:54:57.860 – 01:54:59.860] I'll put the details in the chat for you now.

[01:54:59.860 – 01:55:07.300] Or you can get him at bill@at, athena, should I say, rarebooks.com. [01:55:07.300 – 01:55:10.360] bill@at- athenarebooks.com. [01:55:10.360 – 01:55:14.400] So it's in the chat if you'd like to contact Bill Sh- the author, Bill S.. [01:55:14.400 – 01:55:16.180] No, thank you. [01:55:16.180 – 01:55:16.960] We have, we're in the… [01:55:16.960 – 01:55:17.840] What did we call it again? [01:55:17.840 – 01:55:18.660] The car park?

[01:55:18.660 – 01:55:19.620] The parking lot? [01:55:19.620 – 01:55:20.540] The car park. [01:55:20.540 – 01:55:22.930] The parking lot. [01:55:22.930 – 01:55:23.850] It's the parking lot. [01:55:23.850 – 01:55:24.940] Meeting after the meeting. [01:55:24.940 – 01:55:25.770] The meeting- Yeah … [01:55:25.770 – 01:55:26.490] we're in the car park.

[01:55:26.490 – 01:55:26.860] That's right. [01:55:26.860 – 01:55:28.780] Yeah, it depends where you're from. [01:55:28.780 – 01:55:29.290] Yeah. [01:55:29.290 – 01:55:30.000] Depends where you're from. [01:55:30.000 – 01:55:34.950] We call it the meeting after the meeting, the pa- Pat R. calls it the car park, I think. [01:55:34.950 – 01:55:36.960] No, it's called the parking lot. [01:55:36.960 – 01:55:38.040] The parking lot.

[01:55:38.040 – 01:55:40.380] Parking lot. [01:55:40.380 – 01:55:42.680] In B., it's the parking lot. [01:55:42.680 – 01:55:48.040] So- I keep trying to teach David how to pronounce Boston, but he just, he just doesn't get it. [01:55:48.040 – 01:55:50.700] It takes me 28 times to hear it, Jim. [01:55:50.700 – 01:55:53.160] I have to hear it, see it, taste it, touch it, smell it. [01:55:53.160 – 01:55:57.740] Parking. [01:55:57.740 – 01:55:59.360] I have a real alcoholic mind.

[01:55:59.360 – 01:56:01.690] Boston. [01:56:01.690 – 01:56:03.200] Mercedes is here and all today. [01:56:03.200 – 01:56:04.460] Mercedes, you never said hello. [01:56:04.460 – 01:56:05.460] Lovely to see you. [01:56:05.460 – 01:56:07.260] The same. [01:56:07.260 – 01:56:07.740] Oh, great. [01:56:07.740 – 01:56:10.920] Thank you, Jim, and thank you, the other people.

[01:56:10.920 – 01:56:11.840] Bye-bye. [01:56:11.840 – 01:56:12.510] Bye, Mercedes. [01:56:12.510 – 01:56:13.440] Thank you, Mercedes. [01:56:13.440 – 01:56:15.559] Mercedes is from my home group here in Cancun. [01:56:15.559 – 01:56:15.920] Yes. [01:56:15.920 – 01:56:18.220] We get used to saying hello to Mercedes. [01:56:18.220 – 01:56:20.580] Thank you, David.

[01:56:20.580 – 01:56:22.480] Thank you, my darling. [01:56:22.480 – 01:56:25.240] Joyce, you were wonderful today. [01:56:25.240 – 01:56:28.020] You said lovely things. [01:56:28.020 – 01:56:30.900] Oh, well, I mean, it just came from my heart. [01:56:30.900 – 01:56:32.440] I had things written- Love to our Joyce … [01:56:32.440 – 01:56:33.659] I had things written down. [01:56:33.659 – 01:56:34.330] But you know what?

[01:56:34.330 – 01:56:38.880] Everybody had said all the, I don't know, great things to me. [01:56:38.880 – 01:56:44.880] I just, just wanted to say w- how I came by the, coming to this meeting. [01:56:44.880 – 01:56:44.930] Well. [01:56:44.930 – 01:56:46.580] It's been such a w- and it's the truth. [01:56:46.580 – 01:56:53.600] It's been such a, a great thing for me because it's opened up, um, such an interest in the history, and I feel bad. [01:56:53.600 – 01:56:57.880] I think I said to you, David, in the beginning that I felt bad that, well, I didn't know. [01:56:57.880 – 01:57:00.060] And you said to me, "Well, does it matter?

[01:57:00.060 – 01:57:04.220] You're interested now, and that's all that matters, right?" That's, that's the way I look at it and… [01:57:04.220 – 01:57:14.250] And I, I h- I, I couldn't come last Friday to the tomorrow's meeting, but I did listen to, uh, the, the whole panel yesterday, uh, last week, and it was [01:57:14.250 – 01:57:14.729] wonderful. [01:57:14.729 – 01:57:15.760] It was wonderful. [01:57:15.760 – 01:57:16.780] Everybody was great. [01:57:16.780 – 01:57:18.210] Oh, thank you. [01:57:18.210 – 01:57:24.160] And, as I told Jim and Pat and a few others, I don't like to put them on pedestals, but they're all wonderful too.

[01:57:24.160 – 01:57:26.290] So we're very blessed to have you guys. [01:57:26.290 – 01:57:28.400] And now, and now you're going on a pedestal now, Joyce. [01:57:28.400 – 01:57:29.420] You're, you're going up there now. [01:57:29.420 – 01:57:30.640] You're gonna be up there. [01:57:30.640 – 01:57:31.229] Oh, no. [01:57:31.229 – 01:57:31.440] No, no. [01:57:31.440 – 01:57:33.280] Just, just- You were wonderful.

[01:57:33.280 – 01:57:34.190] Just for today, though. [01:57:34.190 – 01:57:34.310] Just for- [01:57:34.512 – 01:57:34.872] For today. [01:57:34.872 – 01:57:37.392] We put you up for us today For that comment today. [01:57:37.392 – 01:57:38.772] Yeah We'll take it down tomorrow. [01:57:38.772 – 01:57:42.102] Yes. [01:57:42.102 – 01:57:42.582] It's okay.

[01:57:42.582 – 01:57:43.972] Thank you, Joyce. [01:57:43.972 – 01:57:44.952] Welcome. [01:57:44.952 – 01:57:48.072] Thanks very much, David. [01:57:48.072 – 01:57:48.732] Thanks everyone. [01:57:48.732 – 01:57:50.992] Oh, hello Dante in, in Australia. [01:57:50.992 – 01:57:53.712] See you, see you tomorrow perhaps. [01:57:53.712 – 01:57:54.252] Bye.

[01:57:54.252 – 01:57:55.032] See you tomorrow. [01:57:55.032 – 01:57:58.352] Yeah, I should mention that again actually about Jackie B we have tomorrow. [01:57:58.352 – 01:58:01.612] Jackie's gonna do a presentation on… [01:58:01.612 – 01:58:04.472] And we have to say the history now, Jim, don't we? [01:58:04.472 – 01:58:09.012] I have to say this, the history of the special composition groups in AA. [01:58:09.012 – 01:58:11.232] Well, yeah. [01:58:11.232 – 01:58:14.252] I didn't even know, I didn't know what a c- a composition group was in AA.

[01:58:14.252 – 01:58:15.072] I have to look it up. [01:58:15.072 – 01:58:19.432] No, it's men's group, and women's group, and gay groups. [01:58:19.432 – 01:58:20.061] Yeah. [01:58:20.061 – 01:58:22.992] And, uh, you know, I, I don't know if the first one… [01:58:22.992 – 01:58:27.272] Well, they had men's and women's I guess early, and then there was the seamen's group. [01:58:27.272 – 01:58:31.512] And then there were the, uh, what were the flyers called? [01:58:31.512 – 01:58:33.132] Um- Armed services, Jim?

[01:58:33.132 – 01:58:34.692] Birds, birds of a feather. [01:58:34.692 – 01:58:36.452] Oh, birds of a feather. [01:58:36.452 – 01:58:37.812] Birds of a feather. [01:58:37.812 – 01:58:38.021] Yeah, birds of a feather. [01:58:38.021 – 01:58:38.022] Pilots. [01:58:38.022 – 01:58:39.632] Yeah, the, the airline pilots. [01:58:39.632 – 01:58:39.892] Yeah.

[01:58:39.892 – 01:58:40.232] Mm-hmm. [01:58:40.232 – 01:58:47.352] Birds of a feather is- And then you had the Black, and this B-I-O, B-I-P-O-C. [01:58:47.352 – 01:58:48.342] What's that stand for? [01:58:48.342 – 01:58:49.332] In- indigenous. [01:58:49.332 – 01:58:52.772] Black indigenous, and P, I don't know what the P stands for. [01:58:52.772 – 01:58:56.112] You know- People of color. [01:58:56.112 – 01:58:57.222] People of color.

[01:58:57.222 – 01:58:58.232] Thank you, Kit. [01:58:58.232 – 01:58:58.932] Yeah. [01:58:58.932 – 01:59:02.532] Yeah, Black indigenous people of color me- uh, groups as well. [01:59:02.532 – 01:59:08.232] Um- So she did a presentation on Tuesday for recovery speakers. [01:59:08.232 – 01:59:09.212] That's right. [01:59:09.212 – 01:59:14.132] That I think will probably be very similar to what she does tomorrow night. [01:59:14.132 – 01:59:16.552] But, um, I thought I knew it- That was on the young persons.

[01:59:16.552 – 01:59:18.032] Was it on the young persons, Hugh? [01:59:18.032 – 01:59:19.772] No, it was not. [01:59:19.772 – 01:59:22.572] It was on all the s- common interest groups. [01:59:22.572 – 01:59:23.692] Oh, was it? [01:59:23.692 – 01:59:24.512] Oh, yes. [01:59:24.512 – 01:59:30.652] There are other groups like the Nightingales, which were for nurses, and Lawyers C. for Lawyers. [01:59:30.652 – 01:59:31.772] Mm-hmm.

[01:59:31.772 – 01:59:35.732] There's a, there's a, you know, I think there's another one called the- International D. of AA. [01:59:35.732 – 01:59:38.212] International… [01:59:38.212 – 01:59:40.642] And are they special composition groups? [01:59:40.642 – 01:59:43.292] Are they recognized as special composition groups then, ones? [01:59:43.292 – 01:59:45.032] I don't think they're recognized. [01:59:45.032 – 01:59:45.292] Right. [01:59:45.292 – 01:59:46.252] But the hour…

[01:59:46.252 – 01:59:47.942] Yeah, no, no, uh, but this is- Yeah, yeah … [01:59:47.942 – 01:59:48.972] this is a good discussion though. [01:59:48.972 – 01:59:50.552] No, this is a good discussion, Patrick. [01:59:50.552 – 01:59:51.552] Maybe- Yeah, yeah … [01:59:51.552 – 01:59:55.252] just because GSO says they don't exist doesn't mean they don't exist. [01:59:55.252 – 01:59:57.692] Here we go. [01:59:57.692 – 01:59:58.512] They say that- Here we go.

[01:59:58.512 – 01:59:59.182] This is good … [01:59:59.182 – 02:00:08.832] and they came up with that, uh, that terminology because it seems to not offend as many people if you say special composition groups. [02:00:08.832 – 02:00:09.852] Right. [02:00:09.852 – 02:00:16.052] Uh, or special interest groups, or, uh, uh, another term that they use, you know? [02:00:16.052 – 02:00:20.792] But, um, yeah, it, it's just groups that… [02:00:20.792 – 02:00:30.212] Or, or m- more than anything, uh, the, the majority of them are meetings and, uh, and not groups. [02:00:30.212 – 02:00:30.782] Okay.

[02:00:30.782 – 02:00:33.892] Some are groups, but most are, are meetings. [02:00:33.892 – 02:00:37.732] And, uh, of course that's, there, there is a difference there. [02:00:37.732 – 02:00:38.152] But the… [02:00:38.152 – 02:00:43.052] Yeah, yeah, a- and you can, of course we can argue about anything, you know? [02:00:43.052 – 02:00:47.392] And, uh, but, uh- Jim, Jim, can I just come in? [02:00:47.392 – 02:00:49.532] I, I maybe- We should even have groups like that … [02:00:49.532 – 02:00:52.112] why do they have to have a special composition group?

[02:00:52.112 – 02:00:59.772] But what, and, and we're all Jews, but what, why not be an Irish group then, or an Irish five foot ten group, or an Irish- Okay … [02:00:59.772 – 02:01:01.912] you know, B.-headed Irish men. [02:01:01.912 – 02:01:06.102] For, for example, for example. [02:01:06.102 – 02:01:06.103] And may I say it- For example. [02:01:06.103 – 02:01:06.132] For example. [02:01:06.132 – 02:01:06.572] Thank you. [02:01:06.572 – 02:01:07.132] Mm.

[02:01:07.132 – 02:01:07.732] Policemen. [02:01:07.732 – 02:01:08.872] Hmm. [02:01:08.872 – 02:01:13.932] Policemen often have their own special group- Yeah … [02:01:13.932 – 02:01:19.752] because of, you can think of a bunch of reasons why, uh- Right … [02:01:19.752 – 02:01:21.412] they- But why are they sharing their stuff in the meeting? [02:01:21.412 – 02:01:25.492] Can't, surely they can go to the meeting and listen to it, and share their stuff before the meeting- Well, exactly. [02:01:25.492 – 02:01:25.502] They can do that …

[02:01:25.502 – 02:01:28.572] or in the parking lot after the meeting, or to, with their sponsor. [02:01:28.572 – 02:01:29.752] Yeah. [02:01:29.752 – 02:01:32.112] Why do they have to share with policemen? [02:01:32.112 – 02:01:33.902] Well- If somebody- … [02:01:33.902 – 02:01:37.252] you know, I'll, I'll, I'll just ask the women here, you know. [02:01:37.252 – 02:01:37.942] Okay. [02:01:37.942 – 02:01:43.112] Are there some things that you would not like to share, women, in front of men, you know?

[02:01:43.112 – 02:01:45.272] Yeah, but you wouldn't have to share it in that meeting though. [02:01:45.272 – 02:01:47.212] Could, surely you wouldn't have to- I mean, vice versa too, right? [02:01:47.212 – 02:01:48.312] Go ahead, Brian. [02:01:48.312 – 02:01:48.792] What are you saying? [02:01:48.792 – 02:01:50.772] Yeah, and vice versa too. [02:01:50.772 – 02:01:53.192] And I can understand the thing with the cops, you know what I mean? [02:01:53.192 – 02:01:55.932] What if you have undercover cops that need to be sober?

[02:01:55.932 – 02:01:56.412] Yeah. [02:01:56.412 – 02:02:06.132] And they're in the middle of an investigation, or, you know, maybe they're revered in the community, and they have to protect their anonymity in a more specialized manner. [02:02:06.132 – 02:02:08.072] You know, I can understand stuff like that. [02:02:08.072 – 02:02:08.752] Mm. [02:02:08.752 – 02:02:10.292] Or somebody's looking for them. [02:02:10.292 – 02:02:11.872] Exactly. [02:02:11.872 – 02:02:15.031] There are, yeah, all kinds of reasons.

[02:02:15.031 – 02:02:17.462] But- But more common, I mean, for instance, doctors. [02:02:17.462 – 02:02:27.572] As I said, if they're a physician, it doesn't mean that they don't go to AA, it means that they have little, I think in the credit card business they call it [02:02:27.572 – 02:02:28.672] an affinity group. [02:02:28.672 – 02:02:29.352] Hmm. [02:02:29.352 – 02:02:32.272] Uh, you know, something that they have in common. [02:02:32.272 – 02:02:36.092] Same thing with, uh, nurses, uh, they may have something. [02:02:36.092 – 02:02:40.411] Or, and I'm sure there's probably one with, for some level of educators.

[02:02:40.411 – 02:02:45.882] And I, like I said, I know there is with Lawyers C. for Lawyers, and my sponsors were- Right … [02:02:45.882 – 02:02:47.162] part of the formation group. [02:02:47.162 – 02:02:53.942] But they said, "All we wanna do is to get them sober, so let's start them off here and then we'll ease them into AA later on." Hmm. [02:02:53.942 – 02:02:55.022] Because of course they think- [02:02:55.152 – 02:02:56.412] They're special, you know? [02:02:56.412 – 02:02:57.472] So- Right. [02:02:57.472 – 02:03:00.252] Everybody looks up to them, yeah.

[02:03:00.252 – 02:03:03.952] Everybody- I think there are basically two, basically two reasons. [02:03:03.952 – 02:03:14.022] And one is the anonymity thing, where you may not want everyone to know all your shit, you know, that you're talking- Right. [02:03:14.022 – 02:03:14.212] Right … [02:03:14.212 – 02:03:14.912] every- Definitely … [02:03:14.912 – 02:03:15.912] in a general meeting. [02:03:15.912 – 02:03:21.851] And the other thing is identification, particularly in the beginning, like Patrick was mentioning. [02:03:21.851 – 02:03:30.672] Uh, you know, I, I need to go to an only, you know, billionaires meeting because I'm different from the rest of you, you know?

[02:03:30.672 – 02:03:31.212] Mm. [02:03:31.212 – 02:03:31.812] I agree with that. [02:03:31.812 – 02:03:37.172] And, you know, first thing a billionaire sponsor will work you in to go into the mission or something. [02:03:37.172 – 02:03:40.262] But, you know, it, the iden- But- … [02:03:40.262 – 02:03:42.852] ident- identification is why we come back. [02:03:42.852 – 02:03:45.472] But you may start an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting then. [02:03:45.472 – 02:03:47.402] Of course you can.

[02:03:47.402 – 02:03:49.312] No, to get started, David, is- Yeah. [02:03:49.312 – 02:03:50.072] No, no, I appreciate. [02:03:50.072 – 02:03:52.092] Yeah, no, no, I get, I, I, no, I get the argument. [02:03:52.092 – 02:03:53.642] I, I'm, I'm just kind of developing… [02:03:53.642 – 02:03:56.771] 'Cause I've always had this Alcoholics Anonymous fellowship- Play devil's advocate. [02:03:56.771 – 02:03:57.192] Yeah, I can. [02:03:57.192 – 02:03:57.952] Yeah …

[02:03:57.952 – 02:04:01.912] is, no, well, no, Alcoholics Anonymous to me is, is, is a collective thing. [02:04:01.912 – 02:04:09.912] It's not just a only Irish meeting or it's not only an English thing, or it's not, you know, I, I, I don't see t- No, that's only my experience. [02:04:09.912 – 02:04:11.312] Now, I, I, they can think what they want. [02:04:11.312 – 02:04:12.072] Of course they will. [02:04:12.072 – 02:04:22.412] What I'm just saying, I, I find it is when everyone in the community is in the as an alcoholic primarily, not as a, a businessman or a woman or a man or an Irishman [02:04:22.412 – 02:04:22.672] or a… [02:04:22.672 – 02:04:24.312] We're there as alcoholics.

[02:04:24.312 – 02:04:27.672] But, but we're not, we- Mm … [02:04:27.672 – 02:04:31.292] although it's nice to think that we're al- we're anonymous, I mean, please. [02:04:31.292 – 02:04:36.012] I mean, there are people who have loose lips, and, uh- Right … [02:04:36.012 – 02:04:37.332] they, they just don't want to. [02:04:37.332 – 02:04:40.272] You know, that's, I, that's fine as far as I'm concerned. [02:04:40.272 – 02:04:41.232] Whatever floats their boat. [02:04:41.232 – 02:04:42.392] That'll eventually- Mm.

[02:04:42.392 – 02:04:42.412] Mm … [02:04:42.412 – 02:04:45.172] as they get sober, work their way into the mainstream. [02:04:45.172 – 02:04:50.152] But if, if it takes something like that in the beginning, uh- Uh, absolutely. [02:04:50.152 – 02:04:50.182] Yeah … [02:04:50.182 – 02:04:52.772] if that's their ferry, that's fine, you know? [02:04:52.772 – 02:04:53.642] We go to the hands. [02:04:53.642 – 02:04:53.742] Absolutely.

[02:04:53.742 – 02:04:54.452] Patrick, that's good. [02:04:54.452 – 02:04:55.172] Uh, uh, good. [02:04:55.172 – 02:04:56.012] Mike G. [02:04:56.012 – 02:04:57.762] in At- Atlanta, I think that is. [02:04:57.762 – 02:04:59.412] It is Atlanta, yeah. [02:04:59.412 – 02:05:00.292] Um- Hi, Mike … [02:05:00.292 – 02:05:02.352] uh, uh, uh, lovely points being made.

[02:05:02.352 – 02:05:12.372] I, I, I think that, um, I wanted to say that, um, a lot of folks have the idea that, that, um, you know, specialized meetings breed, uh, [02:05:12.372 – 02:05:15.972] disunity, which I, I disagree with that contention. [02:05:15.972 – 02:05:25.992] I think that, like it's been said, it, it enables the message to be heard by more people that it, that might not otherwise have heard it, which is really the thing I think we [02:05:25.992 – 02:05:26.512] all want. [02:05:26.512 – 02:05:27.202] Mm. [02:05:27.202 – 02:05:31.472] Um, so I just wanted to, uh, to say that bit. [02:05:31.472 – 02:05:33.401] Thank you.

[02:05:33.401 – 02:05:38.672] I'd, I'd like, uh, I'd like to interject something too if- Brian, Brian, if it's okay, we're just gonna go with the hands, Brian, just for a second. [02:05:38.672 – 02:05:38.702] Sure. [02:05:38.702 – 02:05:40.272] And then, then you can jump back in again. [02:05:40.272 – 02:05:40.341] That'll work. [02:05:40.341 – 02:05:41.752] I'm gonna put mine in, so I'll just Yeah. [02:05:41.752 – 02:05:42.372] No, thank you. [02:05:42.372 – 02:05:46.212] Because we're just, because I know we've been just freewheeling up to now, but there's, there's hands up now.

[02:05:46.212 – 02:05:47.872] Here, Hugh, do you want to jump in? [02:05:47.872 – 02:05:49.172] Yeah. [02:05:49.172 – 02:05:52.412] You asked what, what, is it an AA meeting. [02:05:52.412 – 02:05:52.992] Mm. [02:05:52.992 – 02:05:53.262] Mm. [02:05:53.262 – 02:05:56.572] You go to the literature that's produced by GSO. [02:05:56.572 – 02:06:06.892] Any special interest group is an AA group as long as it lets anybody in, regardless of whether they fit the,

[02:06:06.892 – 02:06:12.401] uh, the, uh, classification or not, and many won't. [02:06:12.401 – 02:06:14.312] Many won't? [02:06:14.312 – 02:06:15.272] Yeah. [02:06:15.272 – 02:06:16.522] So therefore they're not an AA group then. [02:06:16.522 – 02:06:25.302] Now, I've seen, like, I've seen, like, I, I've been in meetings, like, where teachers have seen their students in AA meetings. [02:06:25.302 – 02:06:26.602] $10,000 or 2,600. [02:06:26.602 – 02:06:28.062] $10,000 or 2,600 or 10,000.

[02:06:28.062 – 02:06:30.652] George, we can hear you on the phone, but I'll mute you. [02:06:30.652 – 02:06:32.152] Go ahead, Hugh. [02:06:32.152 – 02:06:32.852] Yeah. [02:06:32.852 – 02:06:39.392] Teachers have c- been going to meetings and somebody brings a child in. [02:06:39.392 – 02:06:45.852] The child recognizes the teacher and let, and soon the whole school knows that the teacher's an alcoholic. [02:06:45.852 – 02:06:46.592] Right. [02:06:46.592 – 02:06:47.272] Right.

[02:06:47.272 – 02:06:51.192] Right. [02:06:51.192 – 02:06:54.552] So you said that special interest groups have to allow other people in. [02:06:54.552 – 02:06:56.092] If they don't, they're not an AA meeting. [02:06:56.092 – 02:06:56.322] Is that what you're saying? [02:06:56.322 – 02:07:01.932] Hey, we don't have rules in AA supposedly, but if you read the GSO literature- Yeah, of course … [02:07:01.932 – 02:07:03.732] that's what it'll say. [02:07:03.732 – 02:07:11.752] That's what it'll say in the GSO- You call yourself an AA group if you'll let any alcoholic come to your meeting.

[02:07:11.752 – 02:07:13.332] Okay. [02:07:13.332 – 02:07:14.492] Okay. [02:07:14.492 – 02:07:18.552] We can, there's a, let's, we can jump back in on them in a second, but Eddie G. [02:07:18.552 – 02:07:18.912] in Beach. [02:07:18.912 – 02:07:19.772] Thanks, Hugh, for that. [02:07:19.772 – 02:07:20.552] Eddie G. [02:07:20.552 – 02:07:21.112] in Beaches.

[02:07:21.112 – 02:07:22.072] Yeah. [02:07:22.072 – 02:07:32.452] I, I, I just wanted to mention, 'cause I, I, I found this, uh, what, what they call special interest, uh, groups in, uh, the 12 traditions [02:07:32.452 – 02:07:35.672] illustrated in tradition three. [02:07:35.672 – 02:07:40.812] The, the only requirement for a membership is the de- desire to stop drinking. [02:07:40.812 – 02:07:42.672] So I'll just read the, the paragraph. [02:07:42.672 – 02:07:43.041] Mm. [02:07:43.041 – 02:07:43.042] Mm.

[02:07:43.042 – 02:07:50.812] It says, "What about the group that seems to impose extra requirements beyond a desire to stop drinking? [02:07:50.812 – 02:08:00.872] This might be a special interest group or collection of groups in which, for example, each member must be a physician or [02:08:00.872 – 02:08:06.352] a young person, a man, a woman, a priest, or a law enforcement officer. [02:08:06.352 – 02:08:14.592] By their own account, those attending special interest groups consider themselves AA members first. [02:08:14.592 – 02:08:15.662] They ad- [02:08:15.834 – 02:08:25.944] attend general membership meetings as well as those that fill their other individual needs as they remain devoted to A.A.'s primary [02:08:25.944 – 02:08:26.484] purpose.

[02:08:26.484 – 02:08:36.724] And then it just says, "These special interest groups offer only one instance of the diverse and inclusive membership within [02:08:36.724 – 02:08:37.504] our fellowship. [02:08:37.504 – 02:08:42.864] Our traditions allow unparalleled freedom, not only to every A.A. [02:08:42.864 – 02:08:44.724] member, but to every A.A. [02:08:44.724 – 02:08:48.524] group." So that, that's where I found that, the special interest. [02:08:48.524 – 02:08:52.864] So now, now it's a new word, so it looks like they're gonna have to be changing the words. [02:08:52.864 – 02:08:55.364] Thanks.

[02:08:55.364 – 02:08:57.204] Thanks for that, Eddie. [02:08:57.204 – 02:08:59.904] Uh, Brian, do you want to jump in? [02:08:59.904 – 02:09:04.324] Yeah, yeah. [02:09:04.324 – 02:09:14.084] I just wanted to say that, uh, you know, in my time to coming to A.A., um, and since, uh, 1990, you know, I've had, uh, different special interests, you know? [02:09:14.084 – 02:09:20.364] Sometimes there's things that happen in communities that, uh, you know, certain folks aren't gonna understand. [02:09:20.364 – 02:09:22.304] Like, I'm serving in the military. [02:09:22.304 – 02:09:25.184] There's a bunch of acronyms in there, you know?

[02:09:25.184 – 02:09:33.004] And there's some military training, you know, where you are actually taught to kill, and you have to wrestle with that question, you know? [02:09:33.004 – 02:09:37.784] There are also unique issues that, uh, maybe the community wouldn't understand. [02:09:37.784 – 02:09:43.264] 'Cause I served, uh, as a Marine, and I was stationed, uh, near a base. [02:09:43.264 – 02:09:46.184] And I was going out in the local community for A.A. [02:09:46.184 – 02:09:50.044] meetings, but they were two worlds, you know? [02:09:50.044 – 02:09:51.964] And if I'd have known about military and A.A. [02:09:51.964 – 02:09:53.764] back then, it'd have been a totally different story.

[02:09:53.764 – 02:09:55.134] Things could have changed, you know? [02:09:55.134 – 02:09:57.644] But, uh, there's, that's just one example. [02:09:57.644 – 02:09:58.934] Um, other things- Mm-hmm. [02:09:58.934 – 02:09:58.935] Exactly … [02:09:58.935 – 02:10:01.984] to me would be like, uh, you know, uh, lawyers and doctors. [02:10:01.984 – 02:10:05.704] They have to maintain licensure, you know? [02:10:05.704 – 02:10:15.764] And so say the, the doctor needs to share, you know, with other doctors in a meeting about how he put patients' lives on the line by his

[02:10:15.764 – 02:10:17.184] drinking, you know? [02:10:17.184 – 02:10:17.314] Mm-hmm. [02:10:17.314 – 02:10:20.524] He can't say that with other people who don't have the same common interests. [02:10:20.524 – 02:10:30.524] Or, you know, "I lied about this case," if you were a lawyer, or, "I tried this case and won, and I don't know how I did it." You know, I mean, things like [02:10:30.524 – 02:10:30.724] that. [02:10:30.724 – 02:10:31.763] I, I can understand that. [02:10:31.763 – 02:10:38.064] And as a young person myself for that group when I got here, um, it was a hard time.

[02:10:38.064 – 02:10:43.103] I actually had a hard time relating to older people, you know, in their 30s and 40s and 50s. [02:10:43.103 – 02:10:53.134] And, uh, so you know, it was great that when I got out of, uh, treatment at 16, I went to a clubhouse, um, where there were 30 of us, all 30 and [02:10:53.134 – 02:10:53.524] under. [02:10:53.524 – 02:10:59.004] 'Cause then I had my own group, and I could still learn from the older folks who were really trying to teach me the steps. [02:10:59.004 – 02:11:04.244] I, now unfortunately, at that time I wasn't willing, ready, and able, you know, but they were doing it. [02:11:04.244 – 02:11:09.724] So, you know, but if the young people group hadn't been there, I couldn't have, I couldn't have been… [02:11:09.724 – 02:11:11.104] That's all.

[02:11:11.104 – 02:11:11.614] Mm-hmm. [02:11:11.614 – 02:11:15.664] Well, that's a good point said, Brian, I'm sure. [02:11:15.664 – 02:11:18.544] Jennifer M. in California. [02:11:18.544 – 02:11:19.364] Hello, Jennifer. [02:11:19.364 – 02:11:21.144] Hi, guys. [02:11:21.144 – 02:11:31.384] You know, I just wanted to say, as you see, I'm from California, and I know down in Southern C. that there's a lot of actors and actresses that attend A.A. [02:11:31.384 – 02:11:32.304] over there.

[02:11:32.304 – 02:11:38.604] And I know people, since I've been on Zoom, that they willingly break their anonymity. [02:11:38.604 – 02:11:46.544] And I know a lot of the actors and actresses have their own meetings that aren't in the schedule so they can talk freely. [02:11:46.544 – 02:11:52.094] You know, not that I a- agree with that, but I also think that they have, need to have their anonymity kept. [02:11:52.094 – 02:12:00.464] And so, you know, I think sometimes those special interests kind of work for the benefit of us, but they do let others in, but it's not a published meeting. [02:12:00.464 – 02:12:01.244] Thank you. [02:12:01.244 – 02:12:03.324] Well, thank you, Jennifer, for that. [02:12:03.324 – 02:12:04.624] And we've got Tom.

[02:12:04.624 – 02:12:05.684] Hello, Tom N.. [02:12:05.684 – 02:12:07.244] Hello. [02:12:07.244 – 02:12:17.284] Hey, I just wanted to say that, uh, you know, when I came in I was young, and I, uh, I would get into a lot of these discussions [02:12:17.284 – 02:12:18.504] and arguments a lot. [02:12:18.504 – 02:12:25.524] And now that I'm at a different age now, I really don't have as much time to argue with people. [02:12:25.524 – 02:12:29.624] And since, uh, yeah, whatever works best for you, I feel. [02:12:29.624 – 02:12:39.713] There's- I thought there was gonna be a but after that, Tom I thought you were gonna say, "I don't," "I don't argue anymore, but." There are people that, uh, go to treatment, and then they, uh,

[02:12:39.713 – 02:12:46.244] then they get hooked into, like, aftercare support, and they, they do various things for their own welfare. [02:12:46.244 – 02:12:49.484] And in the Big Book, they talk a lot about promises. [02:12:49.484 – 02:12:59.864] Now, do we wanna just offer people, uh, the opportunity to not ever drink again, or do we want to offer them a way of life where they can be, you know, happy, joyous, [02:12:59.864 – 02:13:04.624] and free and not have to be, you know, restless, discontented all the time? [02:13:04.624 – 02:13:06.484] We need to have… [02:13:06.484 – 02:13:16.544] You know, do we want people to be given the opportunity like we have to have all the benefits and all the promises, you know, that, uh, are offered in the Big [02:13:16.544 – 02:13:16.804] Book?

[02:13:16.804 – 02:13:25.354] I think, I think, uh, if people initially go to some of these meetings it's a good thing, because they need to learn to identify first. [02:13:25.354 – 02:13:26.154] Mm-hmm. [02:13:26.154 – 02:13:28.484] But then they need to transition at some point. [02:13:28.484 – 02:13:35.704] Because isn't it really truly our complete purpose that we are here to help whoever is out there? [02:13:36.484 – 02:13:39.824] And if we are limiting ourselves, we're just cheating ourselves. [02:13:39.824 – 02:13:42.024] So that's all I had to say. [02:13:42.024 – 02:13:42.424] Thanks.

[02:13:42.424 – 02:13:43.474] Thank you, Tom. [02:13:43.474 – 02:13:45.924] I, I can't figure out to ra- how to raise my hand. [02:13:45.924 – 02:13:48.464] Um Oh, you're, you're a co-host, Jim. [02:13:48.464 – 02:13:49.074] That's why, Jim. [02:13:49.074 – 02:13:50.114] But, uh- Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:13:50.114 – 02:13:52.803] Uh, anyway, I, I just wanted to share this. [02:13:52.803 – 02:13:55.143] I sent, uh, you the link, David.

[02:13:55.143 – 02:13:57.894] But, uh, just, uh, for informa- Oh. [02:13:57.894 – 02:14:07.944] In the mid-1970s when feelings against special purpose groups were at their height, see chapter 20 on conference, the point was made that these should not be [02:14:07.944 – 02:14:12.814] called special purpose groups since all AA groups have the same purpose, sobriety. [02:14:12.814 – 02:14:16.164] Rather, they are special composition groups. [02:14:16.164 – 02:14:20.444] In 1977, after tempers had cooled down a bit, Dr. [02:14:20.444 – 02:14:25.944] Jack N., the chairman of the general service board, made a presentation on the subject of the, to the conference. [02:14:25.944 – 02:14:35.884] He said in part, "When other requirements are added that might seem to exclude some alcoholics, these should be considered AA meetings and not-" Mm.

[02:14:35.884 – 02:14:45.964] "We have never discouraged AAs from forming special purpose meetings of any or all kinds to meet the needs of interested individuals, but we have been [02:14:45.964 – 02:14:55.204] hesitant to consider as groups those that might seem to exclude any alcoholic for whatever reason." Oh, wow, Jim. [02:14:55.204 – 02:14:55.464] Good. [02:14:55.464 – 02:14:56.644] Thank you for that. [02:14:56.644 – 02:15:00.584] That clarifies a lot, doesn't it? [02:15:00.584 – 02:15:05.604] The group making that distinction between a group and a meeting again. [02:15:05.604 – 02:15:07.804] Mike G., jump in now.

[02:15:07.804 – 02:15:08.863] You've got your hand up. [02:15:08.863 – 02:15:10.524] Uh, yes, yes. [02:15:10.524 – 02:15:20.544] So, um, I, I love, um, providing a bunch of the quotes, especially from Bill W., that don't necessarily get all the, the airing out that, [02:15:20.544 – 02:15:21.194] that they should. [02:15:21.194 – 02:15:29.994] And I always like to point folks to the, Our G. Responsibility book, which has a wonderful, uh, collection of a lot of his, uh, conference writings. [02:15:29.994 – 02:15:40.384] But, um, the one that, um, I think is one of my favorites from the Grapevine article, Anarchy M., in 1946, "So long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, [02:15:40.384 – 02:15:49.744] the most unmoral, the most antisocial, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholics Anonymous group has been formed.

[02:15:49.744 – 02:15:55.244] Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti our recovery program, even anti each other. [02:15:55.244 – 02:16:02.624] These rampant individuals are still an AA group if they think so." Wow. [02:16:02.624 – 02:16:03.804] We're gonna have to go back to that one. [02:16:03.804 – 02:16:05.243] That sounds fascinating to get into. [02:16:05.243 – 02:16:07.064] Uh- Yeah, good stuff … [02:16:07.064 – 02:16:09.024] T- T Bro- Brian, Brian. [02:16:09.024 – 02:16:10.124] Uh, hello, Brian.

[02:16:10.124 – 02:16:12.114] Hey. [02:16:12.114 – 02:16:12.774] Yes, yes. [02:16:12.774 – 02:16:16.044] So I just wanted to share a little bit of experience. [02:16:16.044 – 02:16:26.123] Um, you know, it's fascinating to me that, you know, along with, um, AA around the world, there is a large populace [02:16:26.124 – 02:16:31.004] of, uh, um, Black-only groups, you know? [02:16:31.004 – 02:16:37.384] And here in Atlanta, you find a big, uh, uh, split down the middle with that, you know? [02:16:37.384 – 02:16:44.544] And, uh, you know, I don't blame them because there's still a lot of, especially in the rural areas, racism, you know?

[02:16:44.544 – 02:16:48.354] Um, 'cause it's taught from father to son, unfortunately, you know? [02:16:48.354 – 02:16:54.713] And, uh, some meetings they go into, they get, you know, the stare, and they don't feel comfortable. [02:16:54.713 – 02:16:58.044] And there are different culture issues, you know? [02:16:58.044 – 02:17:08.044] Um, since the, here in the South, you know, there's been a, a, a cultural group split here, you know, where, uh, they've grown along [02:17:08.044 – 02:17:11.644] with us, but we haven't really talked much to each other, you know? [02:17:11.644 – 02:17:17.664] Um, and we know each other as human beings, but we, we've got a, a split through there. [02:17:17.664 – 02:17:22.024] And a- and another splinter also here is, um, gay and lesbian alcoholics.

[02:17:22.024 – 02:17:25.284] Well, they have their own club here in Atlanta, you know? [02:17:25.284 – 02:17:26.304] And I can… [02:17:26.304 – 02:17:36.344] It, it's not so much to, uh, separate primary purpose as it is to, uh, protect, you know, [02:17:36.344 – 02:17:38.264] um, common bonds. [02:17:38.264 – 02:17:39.014] Mm. [02:17:39.014 – 02:17:40.884] And thereby find more sobriety. [02:17:40.884 – 02:17:47.144] I, I think that's more the purpose of special interest groups than anything else, so that's just my take.

[02:17:47.144 – 02:17:48.464] Thank you, Brian. [02:17:48.464 – 02:17:49.084] Yeah. [02:17:49.084 – 02:17:51.834] I want to follow up on what Mike said with just- Mm-hmm … [02:17:51.834 – 02:18:02.224] of course, AA tradition three, which is basically what we're talking about, that our membership on the screen ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. [02:18:02.224 – 02:18:08.584] Hence, we may refuse none who wish to recover, nor ought AA membership ever depend on money or conformity. [02:18:08.584 – 02:18:19.224] Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation. [02:18:19.224 – 02:18:20.604] Um…

[02:18:20.604 – 02:18:24.024] Right. [02:18:24.024 – 02:18:25.904] And they have to allow other people into that group. [02:18:25.904 – 02:18:26.424] Is that right? [02:18:26.424 – 02:18:26.924] That's what was… [02:18:26.924 – 02:18:27.834] Into their meetings. [02:18:27.834 – 02:18:29.764] They have to allow other people into their meetings. [02:18:29.764 – 02:18:31.244] It didn't say- Other alcoholics.

[02:18:31.244 – 02:18:33.484] Other alcoholics have to be allowed into their meetings. [02:18:33.484 – 02:18:34.044] Isn't that right? [02:18:34.044 – 02:18:35.804] It, it didn't, it didn't say that. [02:18:35.804 – 02:18:41.644] Well, uh, yeah, but that's only one tradition of 12, though, because the rest of the traditions do talk about that, don't they? [02:18:41.644 – 02:18:45.214] 'Cause the g- the tradition talk about put- I know … [02:18:45.214 – 02:18:46.184] putting on a meeting. [02:18:46.184 – 02:18:48.944] I know Well, it talks- It says Sorry, yeah.

[02:18:48.944 – 02:18:51.564] It talks about putting on a meeting to carry the message, yeah. [02:18:51.564 – 02:18:53.504] To carry its message. [02:18:53.504 – 02:18:54.004] Yeah. [02:18:54.004 – 02:18:54.944] That's a member of, of… [02:18:54.944 – 02:18:56.964] Let me call it for membership of the group [02:18:57.125 – 02:18:57.296] group. [02:18:57.296 – 02:19:01.096] The only requirement for the membership of the group is, is to be an alcoholic.

[02:19:01.096 – 02:19:03.576] Yeah Or to have a desire to stop drinking, should I say. [02:19:03.576 – 02:19:03.726] Yeah. [02:19:03.726 – 02:19:13.736] But to be, to go to the meetings, put on the meetings, surely they're, they're carrying the AA message to alcoholics, and they have to allow other alcoholics into [02:19:13.736 – 02:19:16.216] that, or people who have a desire to stop drinking. [02:19:16.216 – 02:19:17.096] People with problems. [02:19:17.096 – 02:19:21.286] Probably, and that is the AA guidance that you will- Guidance. [02:19:21.286 – 02:19:21.516] Guidance.

[02:19:21.516 – 02:19:21.526] Right … [02:19:21.526 – 02:19:26.966] in all the pamphlets and where it says group, the group, uh, pamphlet and everything else. [02:19:26.966 – 02:19:27.376] Yes. [02:19:27.376 – 02:19:31.746] But, uh, it doesn't say- Yeah … [02:19:31.746 – 02:19:33.145] you know, that- I know this hand's up. [02:19:33.145 – 02:19:36.755] I just wanna just g- g- I don't wanna hog the time, but I'm just … [02:19:36.755 – 02:19:46.816] So if I just set up a meeting tomorrow about you, Jim, and we said, "Well, we're just gonna have a meeting where we're gonna stop people from coming in," ir- regardless if they're an alcoholic, they have to

[02:19:46.816 – 02:19:49.816] be like, like-minded like us, they have to be interested in certain likes. [02:19:49.816 – 02:19:52.876] That's not an AA meeting, as I read it. [02:19:52.876 – 02:20:00.856] I, I, I, I, I, I don't think that anybody can determine what is an AA meeting but the group. [02:20:00.856 – 02:20:03.726] And, uh- What? [02:20:03.726 – 02:20:03.916] What? [02:20:03.916 – 02:20:04.116] … [02:20:04.116 – 02:20:05.876] determines what is an AA meeting.

[02:20:05.876 – 02:20:16.056] And, and I know people that will tell me that my group is not an AA group or that this group doesn't do it the way I think it should be done, [02:20:16.056 – 02:20:17.516] so it's not an AA group. [02:20:17.516 – 02:20:23.116] There is nothing in AA literature that says that, or anything that Bill W. says. [02:20:23.116 – 02:20:25.916] Uh, as, uh- That's the group, though. [02:20:25.916 – 02:20:27.736] But what about the meetings that the group put on? [02:20:27.736 – 02:20:34.016] I labor on this point, but, uh, but that's the distinction again between the group and the meeting … [02:20:34.016 – 02:20:35.336] groups want to keep people out.

[02:20:35.336 – 02:20:37.016] But that's what you said. [02:20:37.016 – 02:20:38.506] You said birds of a feather flock together. [02:20:38.506 – 02:20:42.576] I mean, so the only people are you said the Hollywood actors or, or the doctors or … [02:20:42.576 – 02:20:47.256] If I went up to a doctors meeting and they said, "No, you can't come in, it's a special interest," you're not a doctor. [02:20:47.256 – 02:20:48.326] I don't know. [02:20:48.326 – 02:20:49.206] I've never been to one. [02:20:49.206 – 02:20:50.066] I- Surely that …

[02:20:50.066 – 02:20:51.296] But that's the point I'm making. [02:20:51.296 – 02:20:53.366] If I walked up to a women's meeting- I don't know that … [02:20:53.366 – 02:20:56.676] with all due respect, and they said you can't come in because you're not a woman. [02:20:56.676 – 02:20:59.516] We have a men's meeting on Saturday. [02:20:59.516 – 02:21:01.156] It's a men's meeting. [02:21:01.156 – 02:21:07.056] If a woman comes in, uh, they tell her that it's a, uh, it's a men's meeting. [02:21:07.056 – 02:21:10.855] And, uh, if she wants to come in, she's welcome to come in.

[02:21:10.855 – 02:21:11.996] Mm-hmm. [02:21:11.996 – 02:21:13.016] Keep people out. [02:21:13.016 – 02:21:16.776] I don't know about other groups and how they are run. [02:21:16.776 – 02:21:24.096] My guess is they're run in a bunch of different ways that you and I would probably not agree with. [02:21:24.096 – 02:21:25.665] I imagine there are some. [02:21:25.665 – 02:21:25.786] Mm. [02:21:25.786 – 02:21:27.096] This is interesting.

[02:21:27.096 – 02:21:27.556] But I, I don't know. [02:21:27.556 – 02:21:30.556] But I have never been rejected from a doctors meeting. [02:21:30.556 – 02:21:31.936] I have never. [02:21:31.936 – 02:21:32.416] No, this is good. [02:21:32.416 – 02:21:35.516] We'll go back to Mike in a minute, but Brian has his hand up and Patrick has his hand up. [02:21:35.516 – 02:21:36.056] Br- Brian? [02:21:36.056 – 02:21:37.736] Yeah.

[02:21:37.736 – 02:21:40.216] The, you know, um, I've been to those. [02:21:40.216 – 02:21:41.576] I've been to a women's only meeting. [02:21:41.576 – 02:21:43.016] I accidentally walked in on one. [02:21:43.016 – 02:21:53.056] And then I also, um, uh, went to a, a gay and lesbian alcoholic meeting, you know, um, as a, uh, a, [02:21:53.056 – 02:21:56.916] a fellow friend of another alcoholic who was, you know, struggling with those issues. [02:21:56.916 – 02:22:00.476] You know, and actually had been in a, you know, the sex industry. [02:22:00.476 – 02:22:02.116] And of course I won't say his name.

[02:22:02.116 – 02:22:03.256] Mm-hmm. [02:22:03.256 – 02:22:03.266] Mm. [02:22:03.266 – 02:22:11.376] Um, uh, you know, and, uh, you know, I had actually gone to that meeting and, you know, and of those different meetings that I went to I was welcome. [02:22:11.376 – 02:22:16.966] And the first thing I was asked at each one of them, just like Jim said, you know, was, uh, "Are you an alcoholic?" Mm-hmm. [02:22:16.966 – 02:22:19.136] "And can we help you," was the second question. [02:22:19.136 – 02:22:21.716] "What can we do to help you?" Absolutely. [02:22:21.716 – 02:22:22.876] And so I was welcome.

[02:22:22.876 – 02:22:24.996] You know, of course there were people shooting eyes at me. [02:22:24.996 – 02:22:26.816] I've also been to Black only meetings. [02:22:26.816 – 02:22:37.016] And I actually had a, uh, a friend, um, out here, uh, in the semi-rural South, and, uh, he actually got sober in a Black only group and Black-run group, [02:22:37.016 – 02:22:42.196] um, in, uh, South A., and spent over six months to a year there with a sponsor. [02:22:42.196 – 02:22:46.746] And, uh, he actually f- learned how to be sober from this guy, you know? [02:22:46.746 – 02:22:47.906] So- Mm-hmm … [02:22:47.906 – 02:22:57.976] I mean, to me what these other meetings, these special purpose meetings are doing is just, uh, you know, allowing people to come together in a common bond to talk about issues that, you know,

[02:22:57.976 – 02:23:00.536] um, they can't actually talk about in open meetings. [02:23:00.536 – 02:23:02.636] Like the issues of race, you know. [02:23:02.636 – 02:23:02.766] Mm-hmm. [02:23:02.766 – 02:23:07.436] Or the issues of, uh, put my doctors or my patients lives on the line. [02:23:07.436 – 02:23:08.306] Sure. [02:23:08.306 – 02:23:09.296] Or, um- Yeah … [02:23:09.296 – 02:23:10.816] you know, I stole from the firm.

[02:23:10.816 – 02:23:11.626] You know? [02:23:11.626 – 02:23:13.965] So why do you have to call them an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting then? [02:23:13.965 – 02:23:16.536] Could they not just call them a meeting where a load of doctors are meeting together? [02:23:16.536 – 02:23:19.736] Yeah, because, uh, they have to have the common purpose. [02:23:19.736 – 02:23:22.856] There's traditions, there are two, two traditions that you're speaking to here. [02:23:22.856 – 02:23:24.836] Tradition four, which is autonomy. [02:23:24.836 – 02:23:26.816] Each group has its own needs.

[02:23:26.816 – 02:23:27.056] Mm-hmm. [02:23:27.056 – 02:23:35.316] And the second one is the, the fifth tradition, which states our primary purpose is to carry the alcohol, the message to the al- alcoholic who still suffers. [02:23:35.316 – 02:23:35.576] Mm-hmm. [02:23:35.576 – 02:23:38.676] As long as they keep the fifth, they can have the fourth. [02:23:38.676 – 02:23:43.176] But if they start breaking traditions as a group, there's no AA police, you know? [02:23:43.176 – 02:23:50.246] Uh, what happens is, okay, well, you decide to break the spirit of the traditions, and that's how they usually are referred to in service structures. [02:23:50.246 – 02:23:50.286] Mm-hmm.

[02:23:50.286 – 02:23:50.536] Of course, of course. [02:23:50.536 – 02:23:53.896] You know, um, then you're risking your group's death. [02:23:53.896 – 02:23:57.236] And you know that club that I went to as a young person? [02:23:57.236 – 02:23:58.046] Mm. [02:23:58.046 – 02:23:58.736] They did that. [02:23:58.736 – 02:24:05.416] Al-Anons and AAs crossed commonly in each meeting, and they didn't keep it separate, and that club died. [02:24:05.416 – 02:24:10.156] So they made it a practice to not practice the traditions.

[02:24:10.156 – 02:24:14.016] And so the group, the, not only did the groups die, the club did. [02:24:14.016 – 02:24:15.556] So. [02:24:15.556 – 02:24:16.715] Thank you, Brian. [02:24:17.896 – 02:24:18.536] Good points again. [02:24:18.536 – 02:24:21.356] Patrick or Dee? [02:24:21.356 – 02:24:24.006] Yeah, I think we're, sometimes we're splitting hairs. [02:24:24.006 – 02:24:24.007] Mm.

[02:24:24.007 – 02:24:24.015] Mm-hmm. [02:24:24.015 – 02:24:27.516] A lot of these specials are not listed in the books anyway. [02:24:27.516 – 02:24:34.576] There's, there's, they're not in, in, for instance, your regular meeting list book like the physicians book and stuff like that. [02:24:34.576 – 02:24:37.096] They're, they're, uh, they're word of mouth meetings. [02:24:37.096 – 02:24:38.936] I mean, we have them in this city here. [02:24:38.936 – 02:24:47.936] Uh, y- you can't go the, you know, XYZ on Beacon S., the building doesn't wanna have 350 people walking in at noontime. [02:24:47.936 – 02:24:50.396] It's not a public building, it's a private building.

[02:24:50.396 – 02:24:54.936] And we, we rent oftentimes private space in some of these office buildings. [02:24:54.936 – 02:24:58.736] And so they're, they're, they're somewhat, they're, they're basically, they're not listed. [02:24:58.736 – 02:25:08.736] Just because we have a thing in our b- meeting list book says just because a, a b- a meeting is listed in our meeting list book doesn't mean that we're gonna go ahead and say [02:25:08.736 – 02:25:12.416] that, uh, that they're doing everything following all the traditions. [02:25:12.416 – 02:25:20.056] I mean, and, and like, uh, I think Brian just said or somebody, there is no AA police that's gonna go in and raid the goddamn place. [02:25:20.056 – 02:25:20.606] No, no. [02:25:20.606 – 02:25:22.935] But I mean, I've walked in, I, I've lived in…

[02:25:22.935 – 02:25:26.996] Like when I lived in the Caribbean, you do as best you can. [02:25:26.996 – 02:25:34.176] And I have been to meetings that were regular meetings that were combinations of AA, NA, and Al-Anon. [02:25:34.176 – 02:25:39.796] You need it to float your boat, my friend, otherwise you're talking to a palm tree by yourself. [02:25:39.796 – 02:25:40.926] Mm-hmm. [02:25:40.926 – 02:25:45.016] I mean, and that's the way it worked, and it worked fine for the time being. [02:25:45.016 – 02:25:45.046] Mm-hmm. [02:25:45.046 – 02:25:46.536] We didn't have any problem with it.

[02:25:46.536 – 02:25:48.106] I mean- Mm. [02:25:48.106 – 02:25:48.376] Mm … [02:25:48.376 – 02:25:49.436] it, it, and that's the thing. [02:25:49.436 – 02:25:58.276] I mean, Lawyers C. for Lawyers, like I said, my s- I have my f- I have a couple of friends that were judges that were part of bringing it to Boston years ago. [02:25:58.276 – 02:26:01.536] And, and there's a need for it, uh, for s- because… [02:26:01.536 – 02:26:11.216] And the, the intent is egrent- eventually these people are gonna move their way into, uh, in- into, uh, the common society of Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:26:11.216 – 02:26:14.616] It still doesn't mean that they have to go ahead and talk at an open meeting.

[02:26:14.616 – 02:26:15.256] No. [02:26:15.256 – 02:26:16.876] We also forget there's a difference. [02:26:16.876 – 02:26:20.496] Somebody mentioned about bringing children into a meeting that school teacher. [02:26:20.496 – 02:26:24.636] What are you doing bringing children into an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting anyway? [02:26:24.636 – 02:26:26.216] Please, okay. [02:26:26.216 – 02:26:29.116] Grandfather of six, father of two. [02:26:29.116 – 02:26:32.196] I mean, it's not a babysitting service.

[02:26:32.196 – 02:26:34.116] We had to do that in the Virgin I.. [02:26:34.116 – 02:26:38.156] We had to stop because people w- were bringing their, there were kids all over the place. [02:26:38.156 – 02:26:40.356] They're called creche meetings over here, Patrick. [02:26:40.356 – 02:26:40.756] And they, they were there. [02:26:40.756 – 02:26:44.316] They- Patrick, they call them creche meetings, they call them over here, Pa- Patrick. [02:26:44.316 – 02:26:49.856] Well, in, in around here for a while we used to say, "Okay, you wanna have children at the meeting? [02:26:49.856 – 02:26:55.076] Take your collection and pay for it to have somebody sit in an outside room." Mm-hmm.

[02:26:55.076 – 02:26:55.886] That's what we call them over here. [02:26:55.886 – 02:26:56.736] But don't, don't, don't… [02:26:56.736 – 02:27:02.776] And because these kids, you know, you really should assume that everybody sitting in the room is an alcoholic. [02:27:02.776 – 02:27:04.576] We get nurses and doctors a lot. [02:27:04.576 – 02:27:09.236] We want them to go to open meetings, which are basically open speaker meeting. [02:27:09.236 – 02:27:15.655] We don't want doctors and nurses who are not alcoholic getting their education at a discussion meeting. [02:27:15.655 – 02:27:16.356] Mm-hmm.

[02:27:16.356 – 02:27:16.745] Mm-hmm. [02:27:16.745 – 02:27:22.556] They should be sitting listening to people share their experience, strength, and hope from a regular speaker meeting. [02:27:22.556 – 02:27:27.136] I mean, there's a, there's a whole bunch of, it's all screwed up with treatment facilities anyway. [02:27:27.136 – 02:27:29.326] Mm-hmm. [02:27:29.326 – 02:27:35.396] Uh, but I mean, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, oh, and each group is the one that determines whether or not you, how you handle it. [02:27:35.396 – 02:27:36.196] That's the other thing. [02:27:36.196 – 02:27:37.196] Yeah.

[02:27:37.196 – 02:27:37.305] Yeah. [02:27:37.305 – 02:27:37.496] Yeah. [02:27:37.496 – 02:27:40.656] I, I've been to, I've walked into meetings from when I traveled a lot. [02:27:40.656 – 02:27:50.716] I went into, "Oh, I didn't know that this was a woman's meeting." They said, "Well, there's a…" Usually they know that there's a meet- another men's meeting three blocks down, or in some cases you're [02:27:50.716 – 02:27:54.416] welcome to stay, uh, but you know, don't come again. [02:27:54.416 – 02:27:57.866] Or, you know, it, it's just, it's one of those things. [02:27:57.866 – 02:28:04.396] We have to be more adjustable and, and, and, you know, s- get rid of the AA police.

[02:28:04.396 – 02:28:05.555] I mean, what are you gonna do? [02:28:05.555 – 02:28:08.056] File an injunction in AA court? [02:28:08.056 – 02:28:09.716] You know, please. [02:28:09.716 – 02:28:10.036] Yeah. [02:28:10.036 – 02:28:14.156] I, I, I, I don't think it's about being police in it though, but just in the spirit of it. [02:28:14.156 – 02:28:15.216] I mean, say if it become… [02:28:15.216 – 02:28:18.556] I, I think it was mentioned by Mike earlier about disunity and that.

[02:28:18.556 – 02:28:25.696] I think it's to protect what AA is, I suppose that means something to everyone else when they come to their first meeting, that acceptance you get. [02:28:25.696 – 02:28:29.936] I mean, say if you, if I had to go into a meeting where people didn't accept me because I'm Irish. [02:28:29.936 – 02:28:34.566] Say, for example, it was an English only meeting, let's say back then, and I was Irish. [02:28:34.566 – 02:28:37.136] And I went in there and I didn't get the welcome as an alcoholic. [02:28:37.136 – 02:28:40.736] I was told I had to go up six blocks up the road to get into an Irish only meeting. [02:28:40.736 – 02:28:44.996] I think then that's what I would be seeing eventually can happen with AA. [02:28:44.996 – 02:28:48.176] Well, it happened- It's becoming more like a class system in AA.

[02:28:48.176 – 02:28:53.896] You have the intellectuals in one meeting, you have the atheists in another meeting, you have the reli- religionites and, you know. [02:28:53.896 – 02:28:56.056] You vote with your feet, David. [02:28:56.056 – 02:29:06.076] Now, when I was in Ireland and they had a convention up in the north, there was a discussion over how the, what s- what version of the Lord's Prayer they were gonna say at the [02:29:06.076 – 02:29:06.716] end of the meeting. [02:29:06.716 – 02:29:06.946] Oh. [02:29:06.946 – 02:29:07.355] That's right. [02:29:07.355 – 02:29:09.576] And I'm telling you, elbows were sharp.

[02:29:09.576 – 02:29:10.396] Oh, yeah. [02:29:10.396 – 02:29:11.076] Oh, yeah. [02:29:11.076 – 02:29:11.536] Okay. [02:29:11.536 – 02:29:12.126] Oh, yeah. [02:29:12.126 – 02:29:15.016] Let's not go ahead and play Pollyanna about this stuff. [02:29:15.016 – 02:29:18.696] We're supposed to go and, and, and, and realize these things. [02:29:18.696 – 02:29:23.696] Not all people are welcome in all places, just like they aren't in any place in the world.

[02:29:23.696 – 02:29:27.036] We have to bring common sense to rear its ugly head. [02:29:27.036 – 02:29:32.156] And, and just before we go to M- Mike, because the, it says the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. [02:29:32.156 – 02:29:34.316] How do we qualify someone, now, Kate, you can't. [02:29:34.316 – 02:29:35.176] Are you going… [02:29:35.176 – 02:29:38.246] How do we qualify someone's, uh, desire? [02:29:39.348 – 02:29:39.728] Stop. [02:29:39.728 – 02:29:42.928] If they have stopped drinking Well, what's the desire?

[02:29:42.928 – 02:29:43.468] That's, that's a way. [02:29:43.468 – 02:29:44.608] What's the desire? [02:29:44.608 – 02:29:46.618] The, the Emmanuel group used to say that. [02:29:46.618 – 02:29:53.748] "If you're serious about stopping drinking, don't come to this church drunk." That's step one. [02:29:53.748 – 02:29:56.948] How do you show that you have, you are powerless over alcohol? [02:29:56.948 – 02:29:57.848] You don't drink. [02:29:57.848 – 02:29:59.828] Yeah.

[02:29:59.828 – 02:30:01.368] That's, that's it. [02:30:01.368 – 02:30:01.978] You come sober. [02:30:01.978 – 02:30:02.628] Is that a desire? [02:30:02.628 – 02:30:04.828] Is that a desire to stop drinking? [02:30:04.828 – 02:30:07.928] That's how you demonstrate it, by not drinking. [02:30:07.928 – 02:30:13.488] Well, as an alcoholic, I can just be doing it to get someone off me back and, and I'm just doing, stop drinking- We're not running detoxes. [02:30:13.488 – 02:30:16.608] We're running places for people who wanna learn how to stay sober.

[02:30:16.608 – 02:30:18.188] Yeah. [02:30:18.188 – 02:30:18.378] Yeah. [02:30:18.378 – 02:30:18.418] Stay sober. [02:30:18.418 – 02:30:20.768] And I know how do we quantify someone's desire? [02:30:20.768 – 02:30:21.388] And, you know. [02:30:21.388 – 02:30:24.268] We don't throw people out who are drinking. [02:30:24.268 – 02:30:30.548] But you do if they're a man a- and he's going to a woman's meeting or vice versa, a woman going to a man's meeting, whatever.

[02:30:30.548 – 02:30:31.748] I'm not picking on women. [02:30:31.748 – 02:30:32.188] And if the… [02:30:32.188 – 02:30:32.678] I'm just… [02:30:32.678 – 02:30:37.688] Anyway, listen, we, we, we said we're splitting hairs, but it is, it is a bit compli- complicated. [02:30:37.688 – 02:30:39.928] Mike, you wanna bring in about the atheists I think, do you? [02:30:39.928 – 02:30:42.918] Well, I'm always happy to talk about the atheists. [02:30:42.918 – 02:30:43.247] Yeah.

[02:30:43.247 – 02:30:43.838] Please do. [02:30:43.838 – 02:30:44.528] Jim M.'s here. [02:30:44.528 – 02:30:51.758] Um, so, you know, being one, uh, I, I, I, I hit a lot of secular meetings. [02:30:51.758 – 02:30:56.228] I hit a lot of, um, uh, you know, traditional AA meetings and, and I love them all. [02:30:56.228 – 02:31:06.228] But, um, couple of points that I want to make is I think, and it's been made I believe, that, you know, AA is and should be a reflection of our society at [02:31:06.228 – 02:31:08.808] large, good or bad, you know? [02:31:08.808 – 02:31:10.828] And, um, I think, I think that it is.

[02:31:10.828 – 02:31:16.108] The autonomy of the individual groups is so, such an awesome thing to me. [02:31:16.108 – 02:31:19.908] And, and I agree with everyone saying, you know, there's no AA police. [02:31:19.908 – 02:31:23.248] Yeah. [02:31:23.248 – 02:31:24.148] Yeah. [02:31:24.148 – 02:31:24.968] You know, it's like, yeah. [02:31:24.968 – 02:31:35.168] The, even, even the traditions, even though it says in some of the GSO, I think in the 12 concepts literature it doesn't say this, but, but the traditions are, are, are also suggestions [02:31:35.168 – 02:31:35.628] as well.

[02:31:35.628 – 02:31:38.368] And, um, but, uh, they work real well. [02:31:38.368 – 02:31:43.518] I even say this, which really pisses people off, but I fucking love it, is, um- … [02:31:43.518 – 02:31:45.228] if, if you had to throw away- We are recording. [02:31:45.228 – 02:31:46.288] We are recording … [02:31:46.288 – 02:31:46.668] the steps or the traditions. [02:31:46.668 – 02:31:46.887] Like, be careful. [02:31:46.887 – 02:31:48.088] We are recording Oh.

[02:31:48.088 – 02:31:48.828] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:31:48.828 – 02:31:50.948] Uh, pardon my, uh, my English. [02:31:50.948 – 02:31:56.408] If, uh, if you had to throw away either the steps or the traditions for AA to survive, what would you do? [02:31:56.408 – 02:32:00.697] And for me, you know, I would have to throw away the steps. [02:32:00.697 – 02:32:03.768] Okay, what's essential is change. [02:32:03.768 – 02:32:04.788] I need to change. [02:32:04.788 – 02:32:07.808] How I do it, there's a lot of different ways to do that.

[02:32:07.808 – 02:32:09.028] The steps are one of the best. [02:32:09.028 – 02:32:16.728] They encapsulate all these, these principles and, and the essence of, of these things, but there's a lot of other ways to do it. [02:32:16.728 – 02:32:20.417] There's a lot of other games in town like Smart R. and LifeRing, et cetera, et cetera, you know. [02:32:20.417 – 02:32:30.438] So, um, s- a lot of times when we, when we're just so focused on the, on, on AA and what it does and all that, we can lose track that, and Bill himself said it, there's, there's lots [02:32:30.438 – 02:32:31.448] of other ways to do it. [02:32:31.448 – 02:32:32.988] Yeah, but we're members of AA though. [02:32:32.988 – 02:32:33.648] And God bless all of them.

[02:32:33.648 – 02:32:35.508] We, we, we're here as m- members of AA though. [02:32:35.508 – 02:32:35.518] Yeah. [02:32:35.518 – 02:32:37.288] I'm here as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:32:37.288 – 02:32:37.318] Yeah. [02:32:37.318 – 02:32:39.788] So we're a member, we're a member- I'm here as a member of Smart R. … [02:32:39.788 – 02:32:41.628] we're a member if we say we are. [02:32:41.628 – 02:32:51.408] And the desire, I don't have a desire-o-meter, uh, handy, so, like, yeah, if a person has a desire to stop drinking but they keep coming drunk, oh well.

[02:32:51.408 – 02:32:51.538] Well, yeah, of course. [02:32:51.538 – 02:32:56.488] We'll have to figure out a way to deal with that, but, you know, maybe we'll take them outside and we'll have a, have a chat with them. [02:32:56.488 – 02:33:06.348] But in the group, I mean, I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, a group of Alcoholics Anonymous, and that group then wants to carry its message to the alcoholic who's still suffering. [02:33:06.348 – 02:33:06.438] Mm-hmm. [02:33:06.438 – 02:33:09.148] Surely that's the primary purpose of the group getting together. [02:33:09.148 – 02:33:09.977] Whatever, yeah, whatever, its message. [02:33:09.977 – 02:33:12.368] Not that talk about our doctors, doctors lunchtime.

[02:33:12.368 – 02:33:13.598] We're here to carry the message. [02:33:13.598 – 02:33:17.898] If you wanna talk about your other business stuff, talk about it before the meeting or after the meeting. [02:33:17.898 – 02:33:18.508] Well, the group, the… [02:33:18.508 – 02:33:21.928] But, but you just said it, its message, not the message. [02:33:21.928 – 02:33:23.448] It does say its message. [02:33:23.448 – 02:33:23.538] There is no group message. [02:33:23.538 – 02:33:24.388] It says its message.

[02:33:24.388 – 02:33:25.488] That's what the tradition says. [02:33:25.488 – 02:33:26.338] It, it says that. [02:33:26.338 – 02:33:27.428] Yeah, the group's message. [02:33:27.428 – 02:33:30.828] The, I just wanna share, S. W, he's gone now, but he said, "Peace and love. [02:33:30.828 – 02:33:32.558] I have to balance love." Bill would you… [02:33:32.558 – 02:33:41.018] If you seek the perfect fellowship," he says, "plan on being homeless." That's, uh, that's, that's true. [02:33:41.018 – 02:33:42.128] Thank you, S..

[02:33:42.128 – 02:33:43.668] He's gone, but that was great. [02:33:43.668 – 02:33:46.228] And I do seek that. [02:33:46.228 – 02:33:55.088] He, he, Bill W. said, "We will show you how to create the fellowship you crave." He says that in the literature, "We'll show you how to create the fellowship you crave." And I, I crave unity. [02:33:55.088 – 02:33:58.248] As someone who grew up in an alcoholic home, I crave unity. [02:33:58.248 – 02:34:08.388] With disagreements, I'm not saying, oh, we'll all have to like each other, but where alcohol is concerned we, we're f- working together to be more collective and stronger to help [02:34:08.388 – 02:34:12.288] that new guy come in, to give him that atmosphere that I got when I came into Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:34:12.288 – 02:34:15.288] And in the diversity, in the diversity is where that happens.

[02:34:15.288 – 02:34:15.788] Thank you. [02:34:15.788 – 02:34:16.388] Thank you. [02:34:16.388 – 02:34:16.628] Yeah. [02:34:16.628 – 02:34:18.828] Yes, but diversity- I was listening to- Go ahead. [02:34:18.828 – 02:34:19.168] Go ahead. [02:34:19.168 – 02:34:19.428] Go ahead. [02:34:19.428 – 02:34:19.728] Sorry …

[02:34:19.728 – 02:34:30.168] in, uh, uh, listening to Ernie K., uh, uh, yesterday, and he was talking about that AA has grown primarily [02:34:30.168 – 02:34:30.988] through heresy. [02:34:30.988 – 02:34:39.768] Um, it, it's when you disagree with someone else, get your goddamn coffee pot and go start another group. [02:34:39.768 – 02:34:40.948] You know? [02:34:40.948 – 02:34:44.548] And that is how we have grown ever since the beginning. [02:34:44.548 – 02:34:54.708] "I don't like the way you're doing it, so I'm gonna make my coffee pot and go start another group." And that's the, the, the create the fellowship [02:34:54.708 – 02:34:55.728] that you crave.

[02:34:55.728 – 02:34:58.858] That's called group a- uh, group autonomy [02:34:59.408 – 02:35:00.148] In each group… [02:35:00.148 – 02:35:09.668] Ernie K. in one of his talks said one time, "There is technically no such thing as AA as a whole." Wow. [02:35:09.668 – 02:35:10.248] Wow. [02:35:10.248 – 02:35:11.448] This is tough. [02:35:11.448 – 02:35:17.388] There is a group of, there is a group of individual, um, individual autonomous. [02:35:17.388 – 02:35:19.448] No?

[02:35:19.448 – 02:35:27.528] And, uh, a- and that, that group autonomy, Bill believed that, uh, that, uh, uh, errors were self-correcting. [02:35:27.528 – 02:35:34.888] And, uh, and that rigidity was our, uh, our, our main, uh, enemy. [02:35:34.888 – 02:35:35.318] You know? [02:35:35.318 – 02:35:36.188] Defect, yeah. [02:35:36.188 – 02:35:36.508] Mm-hmm. [02:35:36.508 – 02:35:38.268] Wow. [02:35:38.268 – 02:35:39.448] I love that.

[02:35:39.448 – 02:35:42.448] He's right that the common enemy of, uh, rigidity, you know? [02:35:42.448 – 02:35:43.058] And- Well, Bob P.- … [02:35:43.058 – 02:35:47.028] you know, just to, as an antecedent to, to, um, Patrick. [02:35:47.028 – 02:35:47.828] Sorry, Pat. [02:35:47.828 – 02:35:55.328] Patrick, um- Bob P. in one of his articles said that Bill W. would be spinning in his grave if he saw- Uh-huh … [02:35:55.328 – 02:35:59.528] the rigidity that was being pushed in Alcoholics Anonymous today. [02:35:59.528 – 02:35:59.708] Yeah.

[02:35:59.708 – 02:36:00.638] Yeah. [02:36:00.638 – 02:36:01.528] And I believe that. [02:36:01.528 – 02:36:03.828] I hear more nonsense. [02:36:03.828 – 02:36:05.687] Sheesh. [02:36:05.687 – 02:36:07.648] Yeah. [02:36:07.648 – 02:36:07.698] Yeah. [02:36:07.698 – 02:36:17.758] When I, I grew up, you know, but, you know, at the other end of that spectrum, you know, there are plenty of single mothers or single fathers, um, that are in the poor classes that don't have

[02:36:17.758 – 02:36:19.688] the money to pay for childcare. [02:36:19.688 – 02:36:23.048] That, that's a- And, you know, and it's hard for them to find, you know, a place to go. [02:36:23.048 – 02:36:25.828] So there are some meetings that are willing to allow that. [02:36:25.828 – 02:36:26.348] That's right. [02:36:26.348 – 02:36:27.248] Right. [02:36:27.248 – 02:36:28.318] So that's the meeting- Yeah. [02:36:28.318 – 02:36:28.368] Yeah …

[02:36:28.368 – 02:36:28.658] they go to. [02:36:28.658 – 02:36:30.088] That's up to the group. [02:36:30.088 – 02:36:30.758] Right. [02:36:30.758 – 02:36:33.048] And this is what w- this is what happening tomorrow night. [02:36:33.048 – 02:36:35.328] We're gonna have this history of special composition groups. [02:36:35.328 – 02:36:36.008] Now, I know there's only… [02:36:36.008 – 02:36:39.508] But if anyone's listening, a, a presentation by Jackie B.

[02:36:39.508 – 02:36:47.188] And what it says here, "AA is inescapably a part of the society in which it exists." I think that's a fantastic statement. [02:36:47.188 – 02:36:48.208] Yeah. [02:36:48.208 – 02:36:50.108] Inescapably. [02:36:50.108 – 02:36:53.008] We can't get away from all the stuff we're talking about, right? [02:36:53.008 – 02:36:54.168] Right. [02:36:54.168 – 02:37:04.068] There is all this divisions and differences and everything, but surely underneath all that we all got this love for our fellow alcoholic who's still suffering, right? [02:37:04.068 – 02:37:05.128] Right.

[02:37:05.128 – 02:37:07.868] The one where we love the fifth tradition, and that's what we practice. [02:37:07.868 – 02:37:10.928] No matter what we- We want them to see the truth where alcohol is concerned. [02:37:10.928 – 02:37:12.648] It's not your solution, mate. [02:37:12.648 – 02:37:14.848] It seems to be your solution, but it's not. [02:37:14.848 – 02:37:16.087] Right? [02:37:16.087 – 02:37:19.168] This is what we have to get them to see, or help them see, or hope. [02:37:19.168 – 02:37:21.648] But reality is gonna ebb and flow.

[02:37:21.648 – 02:37:23.088] Ebb and flow. [02:37:23.088 – 02:37:24.188] That is correct. [02:37:24.188 – 02:37:24.988] We have a new voice. [02:37:24.988 – 02:37:27.768] There will be many- Can we get Frank in Worcester in England, in the UK? [02:37:27.768 – 02:37:29.308] Hello, Frank. [02:37:29.308 – 02:37:31.497] Hi, Frank. [02:37:31.497 – 02:37:38.508] I'd just like to say that, excuse me, um, w- we follow the guidelines of the traditions to keep ourselves safe.

[02:37:38.508 – 02:37:47.228] But in the fourth tradition, the illustrated pamphlet, it says, "Always freedom brings responsibility." 'Cause each group is autonomous. [02:37:47.228 – 02:37:50.628] It's up to each group to avoid any action that might harm AA. [02:37:50.628 – 02:37:54.198] There have been such actions where this tradition would be unnecessary. [02:37:54.198 – 02:37:57.128] Implicit through our day is tradition Bill W. [02:37:57.128 – 02:38:00.538] wrote, is the confession that our fellowship has his sins. [02:38:00.538 – 02:38:06.208] We admit that we have character defects as a society, and these defects threaten us continually. [02:38:06.208 – 02:38:15.878] And one of the things I've learnt in, in, um, AA is I, I, I was a conference delegate in 2007 till 2009.

[02:38:15.878 – 02:38:20.908] One of the things I learned was you can disagree in an agreeable way. [02:38:20.908 – 02:38:25.708] We would have arguments, we'll have whatever, but at the end of the day, what is more important? [02:38:25.708 – 02:38:26.928] Keep us united. [02:38:26.928 – 02:38:34.288] I mean, I've been to women's meetings where at a, it was in a hospital setting, and a chap from the wards came into the meeting. [02:38:34.288 – 02:38:38.027] Well, we allowed him in because it's, you know, we, that was part of what we do. [02:38:38.027 – 02:38:43.108] But if women are scared of sharing something, you just don't share it in that particular meeting. [02:38:43.108 – 02:38:43.248] Mm.

[02:38:43.248 – 02:38:43.498] Mm. [02:38:43.498 – 02:38:50.728] And then hopefully you'll guide that guy to go to a meeting when he's in a better shape or he's released out of hospital or something. [02:38:50.728 – 02:38:52.308] But you'd ask him to stop… [02:38:52.308 – 02:38:54.928] You know, you'd let him in- Mm … [02:38:54.928 – 02:39:00.617] for that particular moment, but then you'd show him there are meetings that he can go to that w- it's not women- That's practical, isn't it? [02:39:00.617 – 02:39:03.388] That's a very pragmatic approach to take, isn't it, really? [02:39:03.388 – 02:39:04.588] It's a kind of a good…

[02:39:04.588 – 02:39:05.728] Patrick, go on, jump in. [02:39:05.728 – 02:39:07.538] No, we had my… [02:39:07.538 – 02:39:11.138] I had a downtown Boston group right in the middle of downtown Boston, Park S.. [02:39:11.138 – 02:39:17.308] We had to have two or three people standing at the entrance to the meeting to, to… [02:39:17.308 – 02:39:19.568] Because a, you know, it's, it's just the way it is. [02:39:19.568 – 02:39:20.488] It's common sense. [02:39:20.488 – 02:39:23.048] The common welfare comes first.

[02:39:23.048 – 02:39:23.358] Mm. [02:39:23.358 – 02:39:23.588] Mm. [02:39:23.588 – 02:39:26.927] The safety of the people in that meeting come first. [02:39:26.927 – 02:39:32.688] Not W. just had a jug who decided to come out of the rain and wants to go to your meeting and get a cookie. [02:39:32.688 – 02:39:33.828] That's not the way it works. [02:39:33.828 – 02:39:39.538] So we had people outside the meeting so it wouldn't disrupt the meeting, and we would talk to the people beforehand. [02:39:39.538 – 02:39:39.798] Mm-hmm.

[02:39:39.798 – 02:39:42.328] And they were welcome to come back when they were sober. [02:39:42.328 – 02:39:43.168] Mm-hmm. [02:39:43.168 – 02:39:44.888] And that was a group conscience effort. [02:39:44.888 – 02:39:48.188] We did that as a group conscience. [02:39:48.188 – 02:39:49.268] Mm-hmm. [02:39:49.268 – 02:39:58.928] I've, I've closed a meeting- We didn't serve coffee at that meeting for a long time because the b- meeting that had been in the building before had been thrown out with prejudice. [02:39:58.928 – 02:39:59.648] Mm.

[02:39:59.648 – 02:40:09.648] And it gave us a, gave AA a horribly bad name, and the, the church didn't even allow us for 10 years to list our AA meeting [02:40:09.648 – 02:40:11.568] in the AA meeting list book. [02:40:11.568 – 02:40:11.977] Wow. [02:40:11.977 – 02:40:19.138] You could call central service, they'd tell you where it was, but they, that church had just had it up to here, and they wanted us to police ourselves. [02:40:19.138 – 02:40:19.628] Because- [02:40:19.740 – 02:40:28.040] 'Cause the worst thing that's happened to AA, I believe right now, in terms of what people think ha- takes place in a meeting, happens on TV. [02:40:28.040 – 02:40:35.120] When you watch all of these things and, and, and all of a s- it's the most nonsense I've seen.

[02:40:35.120 – 02:40:38.040] It's, I mean, it's craziness. [02:40:38.040 – 02:40:43.050] I mean, people, everybody thinks you slip every 15 weeks- … [02:40:43.050 – 02:40:43.260] you know? [02:40:43.260 – 02:40:49.950] And they, and they, and they, then we send out a posse to find you and, and, and please, you know, it's, it's, we're- I know. [02:40:49.950 – 02:40:51.720] It's a- But we did have the- It's a bad representation, isn't it? [02:40:51.720 – 02:40:53.020] And there were bouncers. [02:40:53.020 – 02:40:53.129] Mm.

[02:40:53.129 – 02:40:59.920] It was a bouncer at the 26th Street clubhouse that brought in Father R. Dowling. [02:40:59.920 – 02:41:10.240] It was Tom R., recently released from Rockland S. Hospital, who was the bouncer, and you can find that in, in, uh- Mm, mm, [02:41:10.240 – 02:41:11.150] I remember reading it actually … [02:41:11.150 – 02:41:12.760] because you can't just come. [02:41:12.760 – 02:41:15.300] We're not, "Oh, hallelujah. [02:41:15.300 – 02:41:18.160] Welcome, brother." It doesn't happen that way. [02:41:18.160 – 02:41:19.180] No.

[02:41:19.180 – 02:41:23.240] It, it's a, it's a, it has to be taken on a, that's why every group is autonomous. [02:41:23.240 – 02:41:23.820] Mm. [02:41:23.820 – 02:41:31.040] I mean, all things, you know, what happens in, in, in the middle of Nebraska is not what's happening in downtown Manhattan. [02:41:31.040 – 02:41:35.080] I mean, you're gonna get, you get different things going on. [02:41:35.080 – 02:41:35.940] I've had violence. [02:41:35.940 – 02:41:39.820] I've had people, we've had, had assaults in meetings. [02:41:39.820 – 02:41:42.150] Yeah.

[02:41:42.150 – 02:41:42.600] I've seen it. [02:41:42.600 – 02:41:48.460] And I've seen the bleeding deacons, "You can't stop him there." "Well, well, we'll let the police take him instead," so. [02:41:48.460 – 02:41:52.660] Well, Patrick, we had a guy just kept coming and sharing, and he wouldn't stop though for anyone. [02:41:52.660 – 02:41:56.580] So what we used to do is just stop the meeting and say, "We're having a break now," and he have no one to speak to. [02:41:56.580 – 02:41:58.720] So he'd stop sharing. [02:41:58.720 – 02:41:59.640] We used to put the- He'd stop sharing. [02:41:59.640 – 02:42:00.240] We used to have that too.

[02:42:00.240 – 02:42:00.800] Yeah. [02:42:00.800 – 02:42:02.740] We used to put the Vulcan grip on him. [02:42:02.740 – 02:42:04.440] We'd put a guy on either side of him. [02:42:04.440 – 02:42:05.800] Right. [02:42:05.800 – 02:42:07.800] And they'd hold him behind him. [02:42:07.800 – 02:42:09.340] The Vulcan. [02:42:09.340 – 02:42:10.659] Two of our biggest guys.

[02:42:10.659 – 02:42:11.240] You're right. [02:42:11.240 – 02:42:13.540] There are people that want to come in and monopolize the meeting. [02:42:13.540 – 02:42:17.300] We had a guy here when I first got sober in 1993 or something like that. [02:42:17.300 – 02:42:20.940] He called himself John R., you know, and he would come in- He called himself John R.? [02:42:20.940 – 02:42:21.330] … [02:42:21.330 – 02:42:22.780] and take over 40 minutes of the meeting. [02:42:22.780 – 02:42:23.900] Yeah, he was- Oh, no.

[02:42:23.900 – 02:42:24.780] We'll be having that now. [02:42:24.780 – 02:42:25.730] You know? [02:42:25.730 – 02:42:25.860] Yeah. [02:42:25.860 – 02:42:27.879] We- And we, we had to do something about that … [02:42:27.879 – 02:42:28.310] we had a, we had a, Peter, wait, stop. [02:42:28.310 – 02:42:32.560] Like, you know, Patrick was saying all the time- We all know them I put me cape on at that time. [02:42:32.560 – 02:42:38.440] Hey, I have a- They had to put the stronger members in the group to do something, and they did …

[02:42:38.440 – 02:42:42.380] I have a, I have a question that- We come back to Mike in a second. [02:42:42.380 – 02:42:43.490] Mike, we come back to you … [02:42:43.490 – 02:42:44.270] in 40 years that I've hung out. [02:42:44.270 – 02:42:44.271] Yeah. [02:42:44.271 – 02:42:44.272] Yeah. [02:42:44.272 – 02:42:47.259] I've decked a few roundhouses in my time. [02:42:47.259 – 02:42:52.080] Mike, I think we might leave this as the last que- this is getting in- we can go on, can't we?

[02:42:52.080 – 02:42:52.640] No, it's great. [02:42:52.640 – 02:42:52.960] I love it. [02:42:52.960 – 02:42:54.039] Mike, go on. [02:42:54.039 – 02:42:55.180] Throw- Yeah. [02:42:55.180 – 02:43:05.340] Well, I just wanted to take the conversation that we had just in the last few minutes and take it where we haven't really yet, is like, okay, so in the Zoomiverse [02:43:05.340 – 02:43:06.750] over the last couple of years- Mm. [02:43:06.750 – 02:43:06.960] Mm.

[02:43:06.960 – 02:43:07.130] Mm-hmm … [02:43:07.130 – 02:43:13.229] I, I know that we've had a lot of interesting ways that we've dealt with a lot of not just disruptors, but people that either go on and on- Yeah … [02:43:13.229 – 02:43:14.770] and do you time them and this, that, and the other. [02:43:14.770 – 02:43:17.300] I'd love to hear what, you know, some of the funny stories. [02:43:17.300 – 02:43:24.000] We had one dude that was, that was, it was a reading meeting and I, I said, "Do you wanna read or you wanna share?" And he said he wanted to read. [02:43:24.000 – 02:43:31.660] And he read from a book about, um, the Holocaust and concentration camps, not from Living S., which is what we were reading. [02:43:31.660 – 02:43:35.280] And it's like, "Oh, man." Well, thank God for mute, yeah.

[02:43:35.280 – 02:43:37.690] Yeah. [02:43:37.690 – 02:43:38.300] Absolutely. [02:43:38.300 – 02:43:38.800] Absolutely. [02:43:38.800 – 02:43:40.220] Just disconnect the wifi though, you know? [02:43:40.220 – 02:43:46.400] I'm curious, I'm curious to hear what, how some folks have, have, uh, you know, those kinds of, because it's a whole new world with this, right? [02:43:46.400 – 02:43:47.240] Yeah. [02:43:47.240 – 02:43:48.200] You shut 'em off.

[02:43:48.200 – 02:43:49.460] Yeah. [02:43:49.460 – 02:43:50.880] You shut 'em off. [02:43:50.880 – 02:43:51.680] Yep. [02:43:51.680 – 02:43:53.140] Say a quick prayer. [02:43:53.140 – 02:43:53.850] I don't know. [02:43:53.850 – 02:43:54.820] I agree. [02:43:54.820 – 02:43:56.020] I, I'm laughing because I agree.

[02:43:56.020 – 02:43:57.860] That's just d- you do, don't you? [02:43:57.860 – 02:43:58.620] You just shut 'em up. [02:43:58.620 – 02:43:59.460] You just mute 'em. [02:43:59.460 – 02:44:01.920] And then you do a 10th step if you have to. [02:44:01.920 – 02:44:02.740] You do a 10th step. [02:44:02.740 – 02:44:03.260] Exactly. [02:44:03.260 – 02:44:05.520] I had to mute a few this m- And I send them a message as well.

[02:44:05.520 – 02:44:10.460] If I've muted them, I, if I'm host or whatever, if I'm secretary, I send them a message and say, "Look, stay behind. [02:44:10.460 – 02:44:12.640] We'll have a chat with you after the meeting." Right. [02:44:12.640 – 02:44:14.580] But he might tell me to F off at that point. [02:44:14.580 – 02:44:18.360] But you know, you need somebody to do that. [02:44:18.360 – 02:44:18.550] I got to do it on many occasions. [02:44:18.550 – 02:44:19.700] That's absolutely required. [02:44:19.700 – 02:44:21.520] I know.

[02:44:21.520 – 02:44:23.840] Yeah. [02:44:23.840 – 02:44:25.720] Debbie D., how are you doing today? [02:44:25.720 – 02:44:26.480] Hey. [02:44:26.480 – 02:44:30.060] I just appreciate, I don't know how I landed here. [02:44:30.060 – 02:44:33.380] I heard, I heard so many people saying why, "I got here this way. [02:44:33.380 – 02:44:41.840] I got here through this person." I have no idea how I landed in here with you guys, but damn, I'm so grateful. [02:44:41.840 – 02:44:42.570] Thank you, Debbie.

[02:44:42.570 – 02:44:42.589] That's lovely. [02:44:42.589 – 02:44:43.880] I'm so grateful. [02:44:43.880 – 02:44:50.120] What a treasure trove of people I have in my little boxes in my living room. [02:44:50.120 – 02:44:53.140] I'm so- And we have you in ours as well. [02:44:53.140 – 02:44:53.310] You know? [02:44:53.310 – 02:44:54.200] How lovely to have you. [02:44:54.200 – 02:44:55.410] Exactly.

[02:44:55.410 – 02:44:55.411] Exactly. [02:44:55.411 – 02:44:58.360] I just, I'm tickled to death to be here. [02:44:58.360 – 02:44:59.820] I just really am. [02:44:59.820 – 02:45:02.440] I just, you guys are a treasure to me. [02:45:02.440 – 02:45:03.060] Thank you. [02:45:03.060 – 02:45:03.900] And you too. [02:45:03.900 – 02:45:05.020] And it's a beautiful day.

[02:45:05.020 – 02:45:06.800] I need to get my dog outside. [02:45:06.800 – 02:45:07.740] Thank you. [02:45:07.740 – 02:45:08.330] I'll see you. [02:45:08.330 – 02:45:09.279] God bless you, Debbie. [02:45:09.279 – 02:45:09.410] Yeah. [02:45:09.410 – 02:45:11.120] Lovely to see you. [02:45:11.120 – 02:45:11.310] Thank you all.

[02:45:11.310 – 02:45:12.380] I gotta take off. [02:45:12.380 – 02:45:13.520] Thank you, Patrick. [02:45:13.520 – 02:45:13.630] We'll see you. [02:45:13.630 – 02:45:14.400] See you tomorrow, yeah? [02:45:14.400 – 02:45:14.940] All right, Patrick. [02:45:14.940 – 02:45:15.270] Good to see you. [02:45:15.270 – 02:45:15.520] It's good to see you.

[02:45:15.520 – 02:45:16.060] Always a pleasure. [02:45:16.060 – 02:45:16.320] All right. [02:45:16.320 – 02:45:17.100] Thanks everybody. [02:45:17.100 – 02:45:17.649] Have a great week. [02:45:17.649 – 02:45:18.440] See you, Jim, Wally. [02:45:18.440 – 02:45:18.810] Thanks. [02:45:18.810 – 02:45:19.910] Eddie G., good man.

[02:45:19.910 – 02:45:20.480] Thank you so much. [02:45:20.480 – 02:45:20.660] Yeah. [02:45:20.660 – 02:45:21.410] Appreciate you. [02:45:21.410 – 02:45:22.500] See you, Suzanne. [02:45:22.500 – 02:45:22.800] Love you guys. [02:45:22.800 – 02:45:22.930] Bye. [02:45:22.930 – 02:45:23.780] Have a good night.

[02:45:23.780 – 02:45:25.180] Prague, see you, Prague. [02:45:25.180 – 02:45:25.440] Everyone. [02:45:25.440 – 02:45:26.360] See you. [02:45:26.360 – 02:45:27.460] Tomorrow's- Mike, that was good. [02:45:27.460 – 02:45:28.640] Jim? [02:45:28.640 – 02:45:28.719] Yeah. [02:45:28.719 – 02:45:31.160] Now, here's a history meeting tomorrow, right?

[02:45:31.160 – 02:45:32.140] With, with Jackie? [02:45:32.140 – 02:45:33.220] Yes. [02:45:33.220 – 02:45:35.820] W- was, I, I only sent her the message. [02:45:35.820 – 02:45:36.680] I better stop. [02:45:36.680 – 02:45:38.200] Hold on me stop this recording, Jim. [02:45:38.200 – 02:45:39.980] Good idea.