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[00:00:02.020 – 00:00:02.880] So good evening everyone. [00:00:02.880 – 00:00:04.420] My name is David, and I'm an alcoholic. [00:00:04.420 – 00:00:07.820] I'd like to welcome you to this open AA recovery workshop with Q&A. [00:00:07.820 – 00:00:14.200] And along with Al in Virginia, w- I'll be s- we'll be serving as your co-host. [00:00:14.200 – 00:00:17.760] As S. sends his apologies, he'll be back hopefully next week with us. [00:00:17.760 – 00:00:27.940] So this is one of a series of workshops inspired by recoveryspeakers.com, and it's hosted by the Saturday night AA group here in, uh, Camberwell, London, SE5, where I'm reading from. [00:00:27.940 – 00:00:37.080] In keeping with AA's traditions, in particular tradition five, each AA group has but one primary purpose, and that, of course, is to carry its message to the alcoholics who are still suffering.

[00:00:37.080 – 00:00:47.020] And the main purpose of these workshops is to introduce and/or develop ideas, concepts, and hopefully to encourage participants to do some further investigation on their own. [00:00:47.020 – 00:00:49.240] Uh. [00:00:49.240 – 00:00:50.060] Um, I'll mute you, Dale. [00:00:50.060 – 00:00:50.640] Thank you very much. [00:00:50.640 – 00:00:51.800] I love that mute button. [00:00:51.800 – 00:00:55.700] The common thread, we have a common thread throughout these, uh, has been step 10. [00:00:55.700 – 00:01:05.920] I qu- uh, a reference, a, a section from step 10 in o- our basic text, which says, "We have entered the world of the spirit, and that our next function is to grow in understanding

[00:01:05.920 – 00:01:09.780] and effectiveness." And that's on page, as we know, 84, uh, two. [00:01:09.780 – 00:01:14.060] So as I said, the audio of tonight's presentation has been recorded by, um… [00:01:14.060 – 00:01:21.680] We're gonna record it, and then we pass it over to recoveryspeakers.com, and also hopefully recoverytapers.com very soon. [00:01:21.680 – 00:01:30.960] I just wanna point out that what is shared at these workshop meetings represents the experience, the strength, and the hope of AA members, and that not to be taken to represent the fellowship as a whole. [00:01:30.960 – 00:01:38.320] The step proven, uh, step, uh, program can be found in our basic textbook titled, as we know, Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:01:38.320 – 00:01:40.320] The big book, we call it. [00:01:40.320 – 00:01:45.440] If you're new, that's what we call it, and when you hear the big book being mentioned, that's what we're talking about.

[00:01:45.440 – 00:01:52.080] So just to mention, uh, tonight's talk is on, uh, part two of a trilogy with Jim W.. [00:01:52.080 – 00:01:57.460] Uh, it's Bill W., 1951 to 1971 overall. [00:01:57.460 – 00:02:07.580] But tonight is part two, and I'm gonna be covering, uh, sex, a bit of sex, uh, vitamin B3, niacin, smoking, and transcendental meditation. [00:02:07.580 – 00:02:12.570] So hopefully everyone's brought an open mind, willingness for a new experience . [00:02:12.570 – 00:02:15.980] And we're gonna say a version of the set aside prayer at this point. [00:02:15.980 – 00:02:18.739] If you'd like to unmute, uh, please do so. [00:02:18.739 – 00:02:20.740] We're gonna say this version if you'd like to join in.

[00:02:20.740 – 00:02:21.220] Thank you. [00:02:21.220 – 00:02:26.540] So using God as we understand it or do understand it, God- God- … [00:02:26.540 – 00:02:27.020] please- … [00:02:27.020 – 00:02:28.269] please- … [00:02:28.269 – 00:02:29.020] set aside- … [00:02:29.020 – 00:02:29.630] set aside- … [00:02:29.630 – 00:02:30.310] everything- …

[00:02:30.310 – 00:02:31.740] everything- I think, I think I know … [00:02:31.740 – 00:02:33.980] for an open mind, new experience. [00:02:33.980 – 00:02:35.180] New experience. [00:02:35.180 – 00:02:36.240] Amen. [00:02:36.240 – 00:02:37.580] And we just… [00:02:37.580 – 00:02:47.260] At this point, we just think of those who were here when we got here, and, uh, carried a message to us, and those who are still suffering from alcoholic torture and, and of course the family members as well. [00:02:47.260 – 00:02:48.040] Thank you.

[00:02:48.040 – 00:03:02.320] Always [00:03:02.320 – 00:03:03.440] nice to be in the company of Mr. [00:03:03.440 – 00:03:04.180] Jim W.. [00:03:04.180 – 00:03:06.340] Jim, it's great to have you here. [00:03:06.340 – 00:03:07.640] We're looking forward to this one. [00:03:07.640 – 00:03:11.320] Uh, over, with that, it's over to you in Cancun, Mexico. [00:03:11.320 – 00:03:12.920] All right.

[00:03:12.920 – 00:03:13.860] Thank you, David. [00:03:13.860 – 00:03:18.020] I'll get my screen up here. [00:03:18.020 – 00:03:28.880] And there [00:03:28.880 – 00:03:29.720] we go. [00:03:29.720 – 00:03:33.700] Well, good afternoon, good morning, or good evening. [00:03:33.700 – 00:03:35.620] My name's Jim W., and I'm an alcoholic. [00:03:35.620 – 00:03:36.660] Hi, Jim.

[00:03:36.660 – 00:03:37.940] My home group is a Bill W. [00:03:37.940 – 00:03:39.500] group in Cancun, Mexico. [00:03:39.500 – 00:03:42.600] My sponsor is John M., and he has a sponsor. [00:03:42.600 – 00:03:46.240] This is a trilogy series about Bill W.. [00:03:46.240 – 00:03:52.000] Uh, all right, is that person muted? [00:03:52.000 – 00:03:52.600] Got it, Jim. [00:03:52.600 – 00:03:53.280] Got it, Jim, yeah.

[00:03:53.280 – 00:03:54.440] Okay. [00:03:54.440 – 00:03:57.680] About B. W., uh, more than Bill W. [00:03:57.680 – 00:04:02.940] You know, the, a little bit more of the private life of, uh, of Bill W.. [00:04:02.940 – 00:04:08.920] Like all of us, uh, he had his, his beliefs and things outside of AA. [00:04:08.920 – 00:04:18.920] As early as 1945 or '47, I guess, he, uh, uh, he decided that he wanted to kind of get [00:04:18.920 – 00:04:19.959] away from AA. [00:04:19.959 – 00:04:22.600] Of course, it took him 15 years to do that.

[00:04:22.600 – 00:04:25.020] Didn't seem like he was in any big hurry. [00:04:25.020 – 00:04:28.520] But, uh, a- and AA certainly didn't wanna let him go. [00:04:28.520 – 00:04:34.900] But this, uh, this series is focusing mainly on the man, the writer, and the speaker. [00:04:34.900 – 00:04:41.930] As I mentioned, in 1947, uh, he wrote an article for The Grapevine called Why C.'t We Join AA Too? [00:04:41.930 – 00:04:45.190] And, uh, he, it says, "Dear AAs, Dr. [00:04:45.190 – 00:04:46.680] Bob and I have a problem. [00:04:46.680 – 00:04:51.960] We'd like to share it frankly with you." At the end, he t- he says, "Dr.

[00:04:51.960 – 00:04:54.560] Bob and I are now going to confess a deep yearning. [00:04:54.560 – 00:05:02.200] As private citizens of AA, we shall often wish to come and go among you like other people without any special attention. [00:05:02.200 – 00:05:12.840] And while we would always like to keep the wonderful satisfaction of having been among the originators, we hope you will begin to think of us early AAs only, [00:05:12.840 – 00:05:13.680] not as founders. [00:05:13.680 – 00:05:19.590] So can't we join AA too?" And Bill talked about, uh- [00:05:19.768 – 00:05:30.408] Uh, you know, the fact that, uh, he said, "Of course, everybody's fairly familiar with m- with the fact that I once suffered alcoholism." He, [00:05:30.408 – 00:05:34.588] he said this in a meeting one, one day, and it's on a recording.

[00:05:34.588 – 00:05:37.148] "But I suffered also from a split personality. [00:05:37.148 – 00:05:43.368] I have a personality, say, of a patriarch of AA, a, a floundering father, if you like. [00:05:43.368 – 00:05:46.668] I also have a personality as an AA member. [00:05:46.668 – 00:05:49.728] Between these personalities is a terrific gulf. [00:05:49.728 – 00:05:57.588] You see, a founding father of AA mustn't endorse anything or anybody, or even say good things about your friends on the outside. [00:05:57.588 – 00:06:02.448] But as an AA member, I'm an anarchist who revels in liberty. [00:06:02.448 – 00:06:09.128] So I'm really going to say this time what I damn please," if you will, "if only you will receive me as Mr.

[00:06:09.128 – 00:06:18.568] Anonymous, one of the poor old drunks still trying to get on." So we'll go through a little chronological, uh, information here. [00:06:18.568 – 00:06:25.468] In, uh, in April of 1962, the 12th, uh, General S. conference convened at the Roosevelt H.. [00:06:25.468 – 00:06:35.528] Uh, going down there, they unanimous, unanimously approved Bill's manuscript titled Twelve C. for World S., and recommended it be distributed as a supplement to, [00:06:35.528 – 00:06:39.168] and eventually as an integral part of, the third Legacy manual. [00:06:39.168 – 00:06:48.628] With the publication of this book, all the spiritual principles of AA's three legacies of recovery, unity, and service were defined and explained in detail. [00:06:48.628 – 00:06:58.688] Another point that they recommended that, uh, decisions of earlier conferences of having a majority of non-alcoholic board trustees, uh, be, be kept [00:06:58.688 – 00:06:59.308] in place.

[00:06:59.308 – 00:07:02.658] Bill fought that until he finally got it changed. [00:07:02.658 – 00:07:12.908] In J. of 1963, Bill wrote a Grapevine article, uh, on his 1961 exchange [00:07:12.908 – 00:07:14.228] of letters with Dr. [00:07:14.228 – 00:07:15.988] Carl G. J.. [00:07:15.988 – 00:07:20.128] In his first letter, Bill, uh, informed Dr. [00:07:20.128 – 00:07:28.168] J. that his past treatment of an alcoholic patient was the first in the chain of events, uh, that led to the founding of AA. [00:07:28.168 – 00:07:39.528] And, uh, Bill got the information from somebody, and Bill didn't always, uh, proofread, uh, everything that he put, uh, uh,

[00:07:39.528 – 00:07:47.088] put into his writing in the Grapevine, and some of the dates, uh, that he put in there for that, uh, appear to be in error. [00:07:47.088 – 00:07:55.108] In F. of 1963, an article by Arthur K. titled Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure? [00:07:55.108 – 00:07:57.268] appeared in Harper's Magazine. [00:07:57.268 – 00:08:03.668] Kane, a psychologist, sharply criticized AA as being one of America's most fanatical religious cults. [00:08:03.668 – 00:08:10.508] In scathing terms, he accused AA of being pompous, intolerant, dogmatic, and anti-science. [00:08:10.508 – 00:08:11.808] Imagine. [00:08:11.808 – 00:08:17.727] The immediate reaction of many AA members was indignation, anger, and a desire for retaliation.

[00:08:17.727 – 00:08:25.648] When the demand reached New York for Bill W., uh, and the board to do something, Bill recommended they do nothing. [00:08:25.648 – 00:08:35.757] He counseled that the best response to criticism was no response, and later wrote, "Our critics can be our friends by forcing us to take a look at [00:08:35.757 – 00:08:42.268] our faults." All right, so in, on April 29th, 1963, Bill W. [00:08:42.268 – 00:08:52.328] modified his royalty agreement with AA World S. and, uh, uh, so that 10% of the, his royalties went to his [00:08:52.328 – 00:08:54.748] mistress, Grapevine editor Helen W. [00:08:54.748 – 00:09:04.828] And, uh, uh, there's a, coming a, uh, a shot there of his agreement made this 29th day [00:09:04.828 – 00:09:07.968] of April, 1963, by and between William G.

[00:09:07.968 – 00:09:11.248] W., uh, residing at Stepping S.. [00:09:11.248 – 00:09:21.488] And, uh, so that was a change that, uh, that he made in his royalty agreement with, [00:09:21.488 – 00:09:27.848] uh, AA World S. after some disagreements, we might add. [00:09:27.848 – 00:09:34.148] So anyway, let's get to the really juicy stuff and talk about royalties. [00:09:34.148 – 00:09:37.288] I'm sure everybody wants to talk about royalties after reading that. [00:09:37.288 – 00:09:44.888] So, uh, anyway, the royalty agreement that he came up with says that, uh, number one, uh, Alcoholics, uh… [00:09:44.888 – 00:09:53.348] He would be paid royalties on these books: Alcoholics Anonymous, AA Comes of Age, Twelve Steps and Twelve T., and As B. Sees It.

[00:09:53.348 – 00:09:59.608] Uh, point number two, the royalties would be 15% of the retail price of each of the covered works. [00:09:59.608 – 00:10:07.308] Um, number three, W. had the right to dispose of his interest in the royalties by last will and testament. [00:10:07.308 – 00:10:17.488] Number four, if Lois were a royalty beneficiary, by the terms of Bill W.'s will, she would be permitted to further dispose of her life interest in the royalties [00:10:17.488 – 00:10:19.128] by will also. [00:10:19.128 – 00:10:23.188] Let's go first to, uh, Bill W.'s, uh, will. [00:10:23.188 – 00:10:28.688] And, uh, it may take a little longer to come up here. [00:10:28.688 – 00:10:38.768] But anyway, "I, William G. W., residing in Bedford H., Westchester C., State of New York, being of sound and disposing mind and memory." This

[00:10:38.768 – 00:10:39.178] was his la- [00:10:39.324 – 00:10:43.604] Last will and testament, uh, dated August 2nd, 1965. [00:10:43.604 – 00:10:51.744] You look, uh, there, and you go down a little farther, about in the middle to number… [00:10:51.744 – 00:10:54.484] letter A there. [00:10:54.484 – 00:11:04.724] It says, "I give and bequeath to Helen W. of Pleasantville, New York if she survives me, the life interest in 10% of such royalties." [00:11:04.724 – 00:11:15.244] And, uh, then if you go down further to B it says, "I be- give and bequeath to my wife, Lois B. W. if she survives me, 90% [00:11:15.244 – 00:11:25.264] of such royalties." If neither, uh, um, if Lois did not, uh, survive him, then he,

[00:11:25.264 – 00:11:30.044] uh, he, he gave that, uh, 90% to a bunch of people. [00:11:30.044 – 00:11:40.424] To N. Wing, to, to, uh, his cook, uh, uh, uh, Harry S., and sisters, and brothers-in-laws, and cousins, [00:11:40.424 – 00:11:41.384] and things like that. [00:11:41.384 – 00:11:50.704] Anyway, and number five says, in consideration for the royalties, uh, he assigned the, uh, copyright to those books to A.A. [00:11:50.704 – 00:11:51.644] World S.. [00:11:51.644 – 00:12:01.684] And when it comes to Lois, she was permitted to leave royalties to a beneficiary other than a natural person, namely Stepping S., uh, which [00:12:01.684 – 00:12:02.164] she did.

[00:12:02.164 – 00:12:09.044] And, uh, so I'm gonna just, uh, skip along here to number eight. [00:12:09.044 – 00:12:19.104] In 1985 they found out that, oops, somebody had not, uh, renewed the copyright on the Big Book, and so it was [00:12:19.104 – 00:12:20.744] out of, you know, sync. [00:12:20.744 – 00:12:23.044] And, uh, so they… [00:12:23.044 – 00:12:33.064] Part of the agreement was that they wouldn't be punished for that, that whether it was copyrighted or not, they'd receive their, uh, um, their royalties that applied [00:12:33.064 – 00:12:33.444] to that. [00:12:33.444 – 00:12:41.164] Uh, down about in the middle there, uh, uh, Lois died on, uh, September 1st, 1987.

[00:12:41.164 – 00:12:46.844] And, uh, Stepping S. Foundation's share reverted to A.A. [00:12:46.844 – 00:12:50.644] World S., uh, 10 years after Lois's death. [00:12:50.644 – 00:12:57.884] So, uh, she left, uh, to Stepping S., and that ended 10 years after her death. [00:12:57.884 – 00:13:08.664] Down there further, the amount of royalties paid to Lois's heirs from the time of her death in 1988 through 2014 is approximately $10,500,000. [00:13:08.664 – 00:13:14.044] The largest royalty payment was in 1990, a little over a million dollars. [00:13:14.044 – 00:13:19.724] By 2014 the royalties paid for the year had diminished to the $30,000 range. [00:13:19.724 – 00:13:24.344] And as of October 2015, there were no more royalty payments due.

[00:13:24.344 – 00:13:27.124] The last remaining recipient had passed away. [00:13:27.124 – 00:13:29.364] All right. [00:13:29.364 – 00:13:39.944] So, um, over the years, uh, Bill's investigation into, uh, [00:13:39.944 – 00:13:50.224] the vitamins and related natural health therapies, he was introduced to a woman in Mount K., New York who had spent many years, uh, following a similar [00:13:50.224 – 00:13:54.764] avocation: improving mental and physical wellbeing through natural remedies. [00:13:54.764 – 00:13:56.464] Her name was Helen W.. [00:13:56.464 – 00:14:01.064] "A woman of pleasant looks and a stoic disposition," said several people who knew her.

[00:14:01.064 – 00:14:11.444] According to mutual acquaintances, Helen and Bill became good friends and were seen together now and then shopping at pharmacies and health food outlets, or [00:14:11.444 – 00:14:19.924] having lunch on occasion to discuss their latest finds: a new Chinese herb, an Indian root, or a newly discovered benefit of an A vitamin. [00:14:19.924 – 00:14:23.564] Then the rumors began. [00:14:23.564 – 00:14:28.824] And I do not wish to, uh, s- get into any, uh, controversy. [00:14:28.824 – 00:14:31.804] Uh, I try not to share rumors. [00:14:31.804 – 00:14:36.804] Uh, what I share is going to be from, uh, um, A.A. [00:14:36.804 – 00:14:37.564] history books.

[00:14:37.564 – 00:14:45.604] And, uh, I'm gonna start off with, uh, uh, something that was written by Bob K., uh, A.A. [00:14:45.604 – 00:14:48.864] historian, uh, author of Key P. in A.A. [00:14:48.864 – 00:14:49.294] History. [00:14:49.294 – 00:14:55.304] I usually recommend that you buy his book, but I think that I'm gonna recommend that you wait. [00:14:55.304 – 00:15:03.644] I, I understand that it's the second edition is coming out, uh, with, uh, eight more chapters in it, so, uh, but a great book. [00:15:03.644 – 00:15:13.724] Anyway, Bob K., uh, uh, does a summary of what's included, uh, in this, uh, particular part of A.A. [00:15:13.724 – 00:15:14.154] history.

[00:15:14.154 – 00:15:24.164] And we'll start off, it says, "In B.'s story, the protagonist lets us know that among his problems as a drinker, there were assignations with other women, leading to [00:15:24.164 – 00:15:26.124] remonstrations from his aggrieved wife. [00:15:26.124 – 00:15:29.404] 'There were many unhappy scenes in our sumptuous apartment. [00:15:29.404 – 00:15:40.484] There had been no real infidelity, for loyalty to my life, helped at times, uh, by extreme drunkenness, kept me out of those scrapes.'" Of course, that was written in 1938. [00:15:40.484 – 00:15:44.444] Innocence by way of technicality, or in the case of A.A. [00:15:44.444 – 00:15:48.804] founder, possibly a white lie for the protection of Lois W.. [00:15:48.804 – 00:15:58.814] It is worth remembering that this was a different era, an age in which many wives of the men of power, of prestige, wealth, or genius turned a blind eye to a certain amount of se-

[00:15:58.972 – 00:16:02.312] Actual philandering if they were able to keep up appearances. [00:16:02.312 – 00:16:11.872] One of the many films about JFK, Jacqueline, uh, becomes enraged not by her husband's infidelity, but by his lack of discretion. [00:16:11.872 – 00:16:21.912] In the book, uh, Pass It On, Pass It On was published in 1984 and, uh, documents some bizarre and [00:16:21.912 – 00:16:27.992] possibly embarrassing scenarios involving clinical depression and Ouija boards or, or… [00:16:27.992 – 00:16:30.632] and even LSD are in that book. [00:16:30.632 – 00:16:33.852] Uh, but there are no accounts of marital infidelity. [00:16:33.852 – 00:16:44.512] That, that there is not the barest mention of Bill's most serious lover, Helen W., belies any attempts to present Pass It On as less than sanitized.

[00:16:44.512 – 00:16:49.652] In, uh, in the biography, uh, Bill W. [00:16:49.652 – 00:16:59.792] by Robert T., of all the W. biographers, no one had greater direct access to the founder than Robert T.. [00:16:59.792 – 00:17:03.132] He worked directly alongside Bill for 12 years. [00:17:03.132 – 00:17:13.132] The Thompson biography, Bill W., as would be the case with the conference-approved Pass It On, was, quote, "authorized." Quote, "Lois read and approved it." [00:17:13.132 – 00:17:22.312] Under such scrutiny, Thompson was a co-conspirator in the code of silence, and was able only to include one small hint at matters sexual. [00:17:22.312 – 00:17:33.192] "Fitz, Hank, and Bill were three extraordinarily healthy males, men who had meant to live life passionately." And, [00:17:33.192 – 00:17:34.972] uh, but it's a good book.

[00:17:34.972 – 00:17:37.412] Uh, it- it's a good book to read. [00:17:37.412 – 00:17:47.492] Um, in, uh, another biography, uh, by Frances H., uh, we'll start off, uh, Pulitzer P. winner Nan R.- [00:17:47.492 – 00:17:53.752] Robertson in her book, Getting B. in AA: The Inside AA, briefly discusses Bill's sex life. [00:17:53.752 – 00:17:59.952] Uh, she, uh, Lois, believed in him fiercely and tended his flame. [00:17:59.952 – 00:18:08.192] Yet particularly during his sober decades in AA in the '40s, '50s, and '60s, Bill W. was a compulsive womanizer. [00:18:08.192 – 00:18:16.692] His flirtation and his adulterous behavior filled him with guilt, according to old-timers close to him, but he continued to stray off the reservation. [00:18:16.692 – 00:18:21.312] And I have all of these, uh, quotes from these books in here.

[00:18:21.312 – 00:18:28.952] These peccadillos received an even greater airing in the 2000 Frances H. bio, once again titled Bill W. [00:18:28.952 – 00:18:32.612] Now, Hardinge was Lois' secretary in the 1980s. [00:18:32.612 – 00:18:36.372] Actually started out as a handyman for Lois. [00:18:36.372 – 00:18:40.592] Anyway, Bill W.'s personal popularity in AA circles was enormous. [00:18:40.592 – 00:18:44.871] People could wait in line at large gatherings just to touch his sleeve. [00:18:44.871 – 00:18:49.292] Many treated him like the Messiah or, in today's world, a rock star. [00:18:49.292 – 00:18:54.792] W. also had his enemies, many of them people who were previously among his staunchest allies.

[00:18:54.792 – 00:19:02.602] They accused him of betrayal, of power mongering, of lacking principle, of personal immorality, and even of insanity. [00:19:02.602 – 00:19:07.412] With the exception of the womanizing, none of those charges were true. [00:19:07.412 – 00:19:17.572] James H., an old Oxford G. who had been brought to some noriety by, notoriety by Back to Basics founder Wally P., recalls that Bill often regaled [00:19:17.572 – 00:19:21.232] its Oxford Group's male members with tales of his exploits. [00:19:21.232 – 00:19:29.512] Bill was frequently checked for his smoking and womanizing, but he simply ignored these em- admonitions. [00:19:29.512 – 00:19:39.532] Hardinge in, in that, uh, uh, biography, Bill W., also interviewed Tom P. Sr., Bill's raiding partner, uh, on the Twelve [00:19:39.532 – 00:19:49.872] and Twelve, who stated that Bill was frequently overwhelmed by guilt and remorse he felt as a consequence of his infidelities and the turmoil his affairs were causing

[00:19:49.872 – 00:19:50.812] within the fellowship. [00:19:50.812 – 00:19:57.332] Powers insisted that W.'s guilt over his infidel- infidelities was responsible for his depression. [00:19:57.332 – 00:19:59.472] No argument was returned. [00:19:59.472 – 00:20:09.762] "You're right, but I can't give it up." While other people I spoke with insisted that Lois never knew about Bill's affairs, Tom insisted that Lois knew everything, [00:20:09.762 – 00:20:12.252] and she didn't have to guess about it either. [00:20:12.252 – 00:20:20.172] A lot of people tried to protect her, but there were others who would run to Stepping S. to tell Lois all about when they saw Bill with another woman. [00:20:20.172 – 00:20:25.192] His father was not faithful, and it was not something he'd been brought up to consider a value.

[00:20:25.192 – 00:20:35.232] Barry L., a longtime AA member who was a close friend of Bill's for more than 25 years, Jack N., and Nell W. all said that Bill had let them know how [00:20:35.232 – 00:20:38.952] badly he felt about his unfaithfulness to Lois. [00:20:38.952 – 00:20:44.272] Then, uh, Bob K. [00:20:44.272 – 00:20:51.232] in his summary, uh, of the information continues talking about two wins and no losses. [00:20:51.232 – 00:20:55.432] Bill met Helen W. at an AA meeting when he was about 60. [00:20:55.432 – 00:21:02.592] 18 years his junior, the former actress was, by all accounts, a very attractive woman with tremendous charisma. [00:21:02.592 – 00:21:09.052] Of all the women Bill was close to outside his marriage, none had as much impact as Helen W..

[00:21:09.052 – 00:21:14.252] This one was different, and the lisa- liaison was to continue for 15 years. [00:21:14.252 – 00:21:18.362] Soon after the affair began in the mid-1950s, Bill got- [00:21:18.608 – 00:21:26.968] Helen, who had been sober only a short time, a job at AA Grapevine, where she worked her way up over a period of years to become the managing editor. [00:21:26.968 – 00:21:37.287] After H. left the Grapevine in 1962, Bill contributed to her support, but when he wanted to direct a portion of his royalty income to her, the AA [00:21:37.288 – 00:21:41.508] trustees ref- refused to do it, and Bill was furious. [00:21:41.508 – 00:21:49.248] In the end, as we have seen, she inherited a royalty share, but lived on only a few years beyond Bill's death. [00:21:49.248 – 00:21:52.868] The relationship went beyond any previous involvements.

[00:21:52.868 – 00:21:59.828] This was a soulmate situation, and it seems that Bill had to be talked out of divorcing Lois so that he could marry Helen. [00:21:59.828 – 00:22:08.468] A number of people thought that given the strength of his feelings for Wynn, only a sense of obligation toward Lois kept him from going through with it. [00:22:08.468 – 00:22:11.068] So that was Helen W.. [00:22:11.068 – 00:22:14.708] Now, we had two Wynns and no losses. [00:22:14.708 – 00:22:17.888] Some years earlier, there'd been another Wynn. [00:22:17.888 – 00:22:24.698] Another alleged mistress had been outed by novelist Carolyn S. in a memor- memoir of her familial drinking life. [00:22:24.698 – 00:22:35.388] Seems that Wynn S., See's father's second wife, had once come within a hair's breadth of becoming the First L. of AA for a while during the late 1940s

[00:22:35.388 – 00:22:37.148] and early f- 1950s. [00:22:37.148 – 00:22:39.288] She and Bill had been a mighty item. [00:22:39.288 – 00:22:45.128] A tall and buxom beauty, Wynn was a knockout, and she knew it, and dressed like a chorus girl. [00:22:45.128 – 00:22:52.108] Bill wouldn't and couldn't marry her, but he put her story in the book, the second edition of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:22:52.108 – 00:22:58.848] In her tale, Freedom F. Bondage, she takes a self-deprecatory jab at her succession of relationships. [00:22:58.848 – 00:23:03.248] "I had always been a cinch for the program, for I always had wanted to… [00:23:03.248 – 00:23:05.548] I'd always been interested in mankind.

[00:23:05.548 – 00:23:15.848] I was just taking them one man at a time." And Susan Cheever's book is probably the most controversial, [00:23:15.848 – 00:23:20.608] and, uh, while at the same time she's probably the finest writer. [00:23:20.608 – 00:23:26.428] She delves into Bill's sexuality in yellow there, and the code of silence surrounding it. [00:23:26.428 – 00:23:36.448] Bill's sex life is still a secret, something AA members buzz about over coffee after meetings, um, but something which has been excised from the official literature [00:23:36.448 – 00:23:39.588] and, for the most part, from the official AA archives. [00:23:39.588 – 00:23:49.808] According to Cheever, there are letters from Bill to Lois in which he tries desperately to explain a way of flirtation and kissing incident with Lois's younger sister, Barb. [00:23:49.808 – 00:23:56.568] Of course, this was when, before he and Lois were even engaged, when he was still a teenager.

[00:23:56.568 – 00:24:02.788] To prove his straightforwardness, uh, Bill offers full disclosure of his sexual history, which began when he was young. [00:24:02.788 – 00:24:13.008] His first sexual experience occurred when he was 13, and it was with an older girl who worked at the hotel where Bill, Bill of course lived at, which is now W. [00:24:13.008 – 00:24:13.388] House. [00:24:13.388 – 00:24:15.128] And there were more. [00:24:15.128 – 00:24:20.388] In getting past the inc- incident with Barb, they set the pattern for their long marriage. [00:24:20.388 – 00:24:23.348] Bill was passionate and abashed by his behavior. [00:24:23.348 – 00:24:25.528] Lois was forgiving and comforting.

[00:24:25.528 – 00:24:29.728] Bill's writing reflects an inner acquaintance with the moderation. [00:24:29.728 – 00:24:39.788] In step six of the 12 and 12, he notes that, "Since most of us are born with an abundance of natural desires, it isn't strange that we, that we [00:24:39.788 – 00:24:47.768] often let those far exceed their intended purpose." Of course, the big book says we all have sex problems. [00:24:47.768 – 00:24:52.868] We'd hardly be human if we didn't, and we want to stay out of this controversy. [00:24:52.868 – 00:24:56.188] We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct. [00:24:56.188 – 00:25:06.248] Um, further down there it says, uh, "W. warns that we cannot disclose anything to our wives which will hurt them and make [00:25:06.248 – 00:25:09.968] them unhappy." Again, this was written in 1938.

[00:25:09.968 – 00:25:20.828] A little perspective, uh, Bob K. ends, uh, his summary of, of, uh, that information on this part of, [00:25:20.828 – 00:25:30.278] uh, history with this perspective, that there are many men of achievement who have exhibited a preoccupation, uh, uh, with sex. [00:25:30.278 – 00:25:32.798] Are their accomplishments diminished by this? [00:25:32.798 – 00:25:34.498] For some, a great deal. [00:25:34.498 – 00:25:35.578] For others, not at all. [00:25:35.578 – 00:25:43.408] Some undoubtedly see a level of hypocrisy separating AA's spiritual code of conduct and the actions and attitudes of its founder. [00:25:43.408 – 00:25:53.468] It is worth remembering that Bill was raised almost a century ago, and while he could justifiably be accused of possessing sexist attitudes, he was also capable

[00:25:53.468 – 00:25:56.788] of treating the wom- women who worked with him with dignity and respect. [00:25:56.788 – 00:26:03.868] When B. wrote the literature now being objected to as sexist, he was reflecting the prevailing attitude of his time. [00:26:03.868 – 00:26:13.528] In 1964, shortly after the assassination, Arthur K., the grand old conservative columnist of The New York T., wrote of President J. F. [00:26:13.528 – 00:26:23.788] Kennedy, "The truth explains what the gathering myth obscures, that he was endearingly and admirably human." The [00:26:23.788 – 00:26:28.508] same could e- be easily, as easily said of William G. W.. [00:26:28.508 – 00:26:33.768] And again, thank you, Bob K., for that summary of that information. [00:26:33.768 – 00:26:36.448] Here's a letter that, uh, Bill wrote.

[00:26:36.448 – 00:26:38.088] Uh, "My D…." [00:26:38.224 – 00:26:38.604] Babe. [00:26:38.604 – 00:26:42.744] Great haste and heat seems to be a delegates meeting. [00:26:42.744 – 00:26:50.204] Great haste and heat had been injected into the proceedings, and a pretty downgrading picture of me personally had been passed to the delegates. [00:26:50.204 – 00:27:00.264] But the practical effect may be to disrupt Bedford H., Lois, and heavily contract any creative relationship that Helen and [00:27:00.264 – 00:27:02.184] I may continue trying to have. [00:27:02.184 – 00:27:12.184] That any, uh, possible downgrading and humiliation might come to these two, Lois and Helen, uh, really threw me.

[00:27:12.184 – 00:27:13.794] Devotedly, Bill. [00:27:13.794 – 00:27:19.924] Uh, these and some, uh, other pictures, uh, today are taken from the documentary Bill W. [00:27:19.924 – 00:27:23.504] by Dan C. and Kevin H.. [00:27:23.504 – 00:27:32.784] Here's, uh, some other, uh, quick, uh, um, research done again by Bob K. on Helen K.. [00:27:32.784 – 00:27:37.483] She was born in 1913 in Gold S., Utah, a mining town. [00:27:37.483 – 00:27:41.024] Her father had founded along with several other prospectors. [00:27:41.024 – 00:27:45.704] Um, elsewhere her year of birth is reported as 1907.

[00:27:45.704 – 00:27:49.104] The town did not live up to its optim- optimistic name. [00:27:49.104 – 00:27:55.364] At age 17, she developed an interest in child psychology while working in a bookstore in Duluth, Minnesota. [00:27:55.364 – 00:28:02.304] Uh, with her parents' support, she and two of her friends went to Vienna to study with Alfred A., the psychoanalyst. [00:28:02.304 – 00:28:08.084] Now, and further, Adler lectured only in German, so the girls studied for a year with Dr. [00:28:08.084 – 00:28:12.804] Wexberg, who thought the girls were poorly suited to careers as psychoanalysts. [00:28:12.804 – 00:28:20.944] Uh, so they spent, uh, all the money they had for tuition on skiing, bicycling trips, opera tickets, and beer gardens. [00:28:20.944 – 00:28:23.704] Helen moved back to New York, leaving…

[00:28:23.704 – 00:28:30.964] Uh, moved to New York, leaving a series of letters to be m- mailed from Vienna at regular interval to her parents. [00:28:30.964 – 00:28:34.904] They finally caught onto that and invited her to move with them to Phoenix. [00:28:34.904 – 00:28:39.584] While living in Phoenix, Helen, uh, read in a gossip column that Dr. [00:28:39.584 – 00:28:48.343] Berthold V., who was somehow someone she had known in Vienna, was now in Hollywood producing German adaptations of American films. [00:28:48.343 – 00:28:51.024] Helen moved to Hollywood and took a job as Dr. [00:28:51.024 – 00:28:54.084] Virtyholm's, uh, assistant. [00:28:54.084 – 00:28:57.204] So began her, uh, acting career.

[00:28:57.204 – 00:29:02.824] And, uh, not a super famous one, but she did a little bit of starring. [00:29:02.824 – 00:29:12.884] Here's, uh, her in a movie in 1934, and, uh, a picture of her in 1946 with her son Shep, nine years before she [00:29:12.884 – 00:29:13.544] met Bill. [00:29:13.544 – 00:29:23.824] And, uh, here's a picture of a, uh, a dinner gathering there with, uh, Bill and, uh, next to him, [00:29:23.824 – 00:29:24.554] Helen W.. [00:29:24.554 – 00:29:34.723] Here is a, uh, um, famous picture less than a year and a half before Bill died. [00:29:34.723 – 00:29:38.004] Uh, waiting for the Wi-Fi.

[00:29:38.004 – 00:29:38.724] There we go. [00:29:38.724 – 00:29:44.844] Uh, this was, uh, September 27th, 1969 at Helen's place. [00:29:44.844 – 00:29:48.014] Uh, this is Bill W., Helen W., and Dr. [00:29:48.014 – 00:29:50.124] David H., Hawkins. [00:29:50.124 – 00:29:51.314] Uh, Dr. [00:29:51.314 – 00:29:56.674] Hawkins is a, was a psychiatrist, physician, researcher, and a spiritual teacher and lecturer. [00:29:56.674 – 00:30:00.814] Again, these people who were searching all hung out together.

[00:30:00.814 – 00:30:04.444] I'm gonna just do this real quickly on, uh, Hawkin. [00:30:04.444 – 00:30:13.253] Um, he, he studied, uh, in the Freudian tradition, and along the way he met, uh, Bill W. and they became good friends. [00:30:13.253 – 00:30:16.104] W.'s influence on David was profound. [00:30:16.104 – 00:30:16.764] Look at the books. [00:30:16.764 – 00:30:18.824] Down there are the, are the books that he wrote. [00:30:18.824 – 00:30:22.064] Uh, you think Bill will affected him? [00:30:22.064 – 00:30:29.324] Uh, Bill W. affected him, Letting Go, Power, uh, Versus F., The, The I of the I.

[00:30:29.324 – 00:30:32.564] Bill's, uh, was profound, his influence. [00:30:32.564 – 00:30:42.604] He- we can find the kernel of many of the core precepts of David's later teachings in W.'s talks and writings, where W. recorded timeless spiritual principles from his [00:30:42.604 – 00:30:43.984] own understanding. [00:30:43.984 – 00:30:54.084] Uh, on, uh, a picture of Bill with Helen, and then [00:30:54.084 – 00:30:55.524] her later on. [00:30:55.524 – 00:31:05.944] On, uh, on February 28th, 1978, Helen W., born Helen R. Simmons, uh, born January 17th, [00:31:05.944 – 00:31:11.884] 1907, or 1912 or '13 in Iron C., Utah.

[00:31:11.884 – 00:31:21.964] Uh, actress, AA member, Grapevine editor, and Bill W.'s mistress who inherited, inherited 10% of his royalties, passed away in Moroni, Grand C., [00:31:21.964 – 00:31:25.284] an island off the east coast of Africa. [00:31:25.284 – 00:31:32.364] Now we'll go on back to the, uh, timeline. [00:31:32.364 – 00:31:36.954] And, uh, on October, uh, 31st, 1963, Dr. [00:31:36.954 – 00:31:38.224] Sam S. died. [00:31:38.224 – 00:31:43.984] In a February 1964 Grapevine memorial article, Bill W. [00:31:43.984 – 00:31:44.484] wrote, "Dr.

[00:31:44.484 – 00:31:47.284] Sam S. was one of AA's indispensables. [00:31:47.284 – 00:31:57.474] Had it not been for his ministry to us in our early times, our fellowship would not be, would not, would not be, would not be in existence [00:31:57.474 – 00:31:57.475] today." [00:31:59.152 – 00:32:03.731] Physically, he provided refuge for alcoholics in New York through Calvary C.. [00:32:03.731 – 00:32:11.112] Of great importance was his spiritual aid, which directly influenced the 12 steps and the nature of AA's program of recovery. [00:32:11.112 – 00:32:13.732] His long and close friendship with Bill W. [00:32:13.732 – 00:32:19.172] provided support to the co-founder and helped the fellowship weather its fledgling years.

[00:32:19.172 – 00:32:20.472] That's from AA.org. [00:32:20.472 – 00:32:30.932] Bill would later acknowledge that the early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgement of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others [00:32:30.932 – 00:32:38.812] straight from the Oxford Group and directly from Sam S., their former leader in America, and from nowhere else. [00:32:38.812 – 00:32:44.072] Great friend of Bill W. and of AA's, Sam S.. [00:32:44.072 – 00:32:54.272] In A. of 1964, uh, the General S. Conference, uh, had some other royalty, uh, uh, issues to, uh, talk about. [00:32:54.272 – 00:33:02.252] And, uh, uh, so they made some other adjustments to, uh, the royalty things. [00:33:02.252 – 00:33:06.032] Bill would not get paid for, uh, big books sold overseas.

[00:33:06.032 – 00:33:16.082] And, uh, and in case AA decided to publish cheap books, like the small big books and, and paperbacks and things like [00:33:16.082 – 00:33:23.492] that, uh, Bill would not be punished, uh, since 15% of $5 is more than 15% of $2. [00:33:23.492 – 00:33:33.802] You know, any cheaper editions, uh, he, he would be paid an average of so that he wouldn't have any, any part of his, uh, his income, [00:33:33.802 – 00:33:37.172] uh, flow, uh, hurt too badly. [00:33:37.172 – 00:33:42.692] On O. 3rd, 1964, Bill celebrated his 30th birthday of sobriety. [00:33:42.692 – 00:33:44.672] They celebrated it just about any time. [00:33:44.672 – 00:33:48.692] Of course, his sobriety date is December 11th, 1934.

[00:33:48.692 – 00:33:52.652] And, uh, he, this was at the Hotel C.. [00:33:52.652 – 00:33:59.992] "Dear friends, for this great gathering on occasion of my 30th anniversary, Lois joins me in deepest gratitude. [00:33:59.992 – 00:34:02.852] May G. be with each of you always. [00:34:02.852 – 00:34:13.012] In affection, Bill." Also here is a, a very rare, uh, uh, Bill, uh, W., Bill W. letter written [00:34:13.012 – 00:34:13.792] in Spanish. [00:34:13.792 – 00:34:19.832] Uh, just by the, uh, style of the letter, I don't think the letter itself was written in Spanish. [00:34:19.832 – 00:34:22.332] Uh, the signature is Bill's.

[00:34:22.332 – 00:34:30.892] But, uh, it was wr- a letter written, uh, from Bill thanking, uh, people, uh, uh, for his trip to Mexico. [00:34:30.892 – 00:34:39.472] I, uh, uh, I would also like to, uh, I had trouble reading with the florid, uh, writing. [00:34:39.472 – 00:34:49.472] Uh, I had, uh, trouble reading that, so I thank Mercedes for her help in, in helping me, uh, dissect, uh, and, [00:34:49.472 – 00:34:51.182] uh, translate this, this letter. [00:34:51.182 – 00:34:54.892] Very rare thing to have, have a letter of Bill's written in Spanish. [00:34:54.892 – 00:35:03.032] And, uh, and he starts it off, uh, "Lois and I wish to express our deep affection for each and every one of you this Christmas. [00:35:03.032 – 00:35:13.212] While I write this message, I try to imagine that I am in touch with all of you in the whole world that are, and you that are spread out in so many lands and so many

[00:35:13.212 – 00:35:19.292] seas." Uh, sharing with people around the world at Christmastime. [00:35:19.292 – 00:35:29.072] And then kind of to close a chapter, in 1965, in June 6th of 1965, T. Hospital closed. [00:35:29.072 – 00:35:34.812] Um, drying out hospital, uh, T. Hospital closed. [00:35:34.812 – 00:35:40.632] And, uh, and that's from the New York Times, June 6th, 1965. [00:35:40.632 – 00:35:51.372] Now, we're gonna, uh, interrupt the chronological timeline to talk a little bit about Bill W. and those outside issues, although we'll start off with 1965. [00:35:51.372 – 00:36:01.372] The outside issues, uh, that we call outside issues in, uh, in AA, uh, if any individual AA is interested [00:36:01.372 – 00:36:10.172] in these things, any in, out, any individual AA like Bill W. or you or me or anybody else, then that's our own personal business.

[00:36:10.172 – 00:36:15.792] But they're called outside issues in AA because we don't talk about them in AA. [00:36:15.792 – 00:36:26.252] Anyway, in December of 1965, Bill enthusiastically embraced a campaign to promote vitamin B3, niacin or nicotinic acid therapy, [00:36:26.252 – 00:36:28.592] and created traditions issue within the fellowship. [00:36:28.592 – 00:36:38.732] Now in further, it says, "By the mid-1950s, when he was writing AA Comes of Age, Bill was acutely aware that there were many people unable to experience a spiritual [00:36:38.732 – 00:36:46.092] experience or psychic change as described in Appendix 2 of the Big Book, sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism. [00:36:46.092 – 00:36:56.712] Consequently, he was constantly searching for effective ways to reach those suffering alcoholics who did not respond to AA's program as prescribed in the Big Book." [00:36:56.712 – 00:37:03.112] Make no mistake about it, Bill W. loved AA, and he believed in it with every fiber of his body.

[00:37:03.112 – 00:37:09.792] But two key, but two key factors prohibited this from being the end of the story. [00:37:09.792 – 00:37:12.332] First, although AA helped Bill W. [00:37:12.332 – 00:37:16.732] deal with his alcoholism, it did nothing to curb his anxiety and depression. [00:37:17.468 – 00:37:20.928] Second, as powerful as AA was, it didn't work for everybody. [00:37:20.928 – 00:37:25.348] Now fast-forward from 1935 to the year 1960. [00:37:25.348 – 00:37:30.038] Bill W. decided to attend a parapsychology conference in New York City. [00:37:30.038 – 00:37:40.188] It was there that the famed British writer and AA supporter Aldous H. introduced W. to two esteemed psychiatrists, Abram H. and Humphrey

[00:37:40.188 – 00:37:40.788] Osmond. [00:37:40.788 – 00:37:42.308] This is where he met them. [00:37:42.308 – 00:37:44.368] He had read about them previously. [00:37:44.368 – 00:37:53.388] These psychiatrists shared with W. a promising new treatment for alcoholics and schizophrenics dubbed vitamin B3 or niacin therapy. [00:37:53.388 – 00:37:55.668] He was fascinated by their research. [00:37:55.668 – 00:38:05.788] He began ingesting a bomber's load of the nutrient, three grams daily, only to report that his lifelong battle with depression and anxiety lifted in just 14 [00:38:05.788 – 00:38:06.748] days.

[00:38:06.748 – 00:38:07.988] Is that amazing or what? [00:38:07.988 – 00:38:12.828] I mean, seriously, it sounds like something right out of an infomercial airing at 2:00 A.M. [00:38:12.828 – 00:38:17.628] after the one for Tony R.' self-improvement, uh, materials. [00:38:17.628 – 00:38:27.288] Anyway, going on, this is from the, uh, the book, uh, Lois W., uh, uh, When L. Is N. Enough. [00:38:27.288 – 00:38:37.868] So after his, uh, his LXD, LSD experiments, uh, just when Lois, uh, felt relieved that the, uh, the controversy [00:38:37.868 – 00:38:43.128] was finally behind them, Bill jumped into the fire, from the frying pan into the fire. [00:38:43.128 – 00:38:47.248] To her dying day, Lois could never really understand what all the fuss was about.

[00:38:47.248 – 00:38:57.848] It concerned her husband's sudden outright and unabashed endortment, endorsement of one of the lesser-known vitamins at the time, vitamin B3, better known as niacin. [00:38:57.848 – 00:39:07.248] He began proclaiming its beneficial effects for alcoholics after becoming engrossed himself in the many studies that had been done on its properties and alleged curative powers. [00:39:07.248 – 00:39:10.688] Bill became absolutely convinced of three things. [00:39:10.688 – 00:39:17.608] First, giving niacin as part of the alcoholic's detoxification process could lessen the effects of alcohol withdrawal. [00:39:17.608 – 00:39:26.028] Second, studies showed that it stimulated the blood vessels, particularly in the brain, which helped alleviate depressive mood swings. [00:39:26.028 – 00:39:35.528] And third, it prevented to some extent a drop in blood sugar, which researchers said improved the feelings of both physical and psychological wellbeing. [00:39:35.528 – 00:39:43.658] "I think the problem was," Lois once hinted to a close friend, "that with most things Bill got interested in, he became over-enthusiastic.

[00:39:43.658 – 00:39:46.828] Wherever he went, he was telling everyone to take niacin. [00:39:46.828 – 00:39:57.088] He even had me taking it, and I must admit it seemed to help." And, uh, Lois was absolutely right about Bill's obsessive influence, [00:39:57.088 – 00:39:59.968] enthusiasm getting him into hot water again. [00:39:59.968 – 00:40:04.108] He was spreading his niacin gospel wherever he went. [00:40:04.108 – 00:40:08.268] He even wrote several papers on the subject, which he distributed far and wide. [00:40:08.268 – 00:40:17.288] Soon, the pros and cons of vitamin B3 were being argued in AA meetings, which ran head-on into another of the fellowship's traditions, the 10th. [00:40:17.288 – 00:40:24.588] Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues, hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

[00:40:24.588 – 00:40:33.208] Once again, a group of AA trustees sat down with their co-founder to express their concern about the latest hornet's nest he was stirring up. [00:40:33.208 – 00:40:37.008] They had no argument over his promoting the values of niacin. [00:40:37.008 – 00:40:41.608] They asked only that he not mix it with AA's name or in AA activities. [00:40:41.608 – 00:40:51.688] Despite his absolute conviction about niacin's beneficial effects for all alcoholics, Bill agreed to, uh, separate his personal interest in it from [00:40:51.688 – 00:40:52.488] the fellowship. [00:40:52.488 – 00:40:55.488] The solution quickly ended the controversy. [00:40:55.488 – 00:41:01.188] Lois said that her husband's interest in vitamin therapy did not end with niacin.

[00:41:01.188 – 00:41:06.328] She said they both came to believe that other vitamins offered their own specific benefits as well. [00:41:06.328 – 00:41:16.728] While she approached the subject in her usual low-key style, Lois said Bill could talk for hours about how various vitamin regimens could help alcoholics [00:41:16.728 – 00:41:21.868] in their early stages of physical recovery and later with their mental and emotional recovery. [00:41:21.868 – 00:41:27.708] "I think at one time we had almost every vitamin there was at Stepping S.," Lois would smile. [00:41:27.708 – 00:41:37.788] "I must admit it became a bit confusing after a while, so I just stuck to the few I knew the most about, like B12, C, and E, and of course [00:41:37.788 – 00:41:44.828] niacin." Oops. [00:41:44.828 – 00:41:49.828] I didn't want to do that.

[00:41:49.828 – 00:41:50.328] There we go. [00:41:50.328 – 00:41:50.788] Oh. [00:41:50.788 – 00:41:57.968] I don't know what happened there, but I seem to have… [00:41:57.968 – 00:42:02.808] Thank you. [00:42:02.808 – 00:42:12.728] In his perception, the debilitating depressions that Bill periodically suffered throughout his life were largely alleviated during his last 10 years. [00:42:12.728 – 00:42:17.228] He attributed this to his experiments with LSD and his regular use of niacin. [00:42:17.228 – 00:42:24.628] Nevertheless, AA trustees forbade Bill to use AA offices or stationery to promote his interest in niacin.

[00:42:24.628 – 00:42:29.908] He was relegated to study niacin at Stepping S. and use a general PO box on Long I.. [00:42:29.908 – 00:42:31.288] Dr. [00:42:31.288 – 00:42:36.928] Hoffer says this: "Bill W., who founded Alcoholics Anonymous, began to take niacin three…" [00:42:37.124 – 00:42:38.384] 50,000 milligrams daily. [00:42:38.384 – 00:42:42.764] Within a few weeks, fatigue and depression, which had plagued him for years, were gone. [00:42:42.764 – 00:42:45.804] He gave it to 30 of his close friends in AA. [00:42:45.804 – 00:42:51.804] Uh, of the 30, 10 were free of anxiety, tension, and depression in one month.

[00:42:51.804 – 00:42:54.484] Another 10 were well in two months. [00:42:54.484 – 00:43:04.544] This is just another example of, uh, the second communication to physicians that Bill wrote in February of 1968. [00:43:04.544 – 00:43:13.644] And h- and he was, he was sending this out to doctors, to doctors, uh, in AA and to other doctors. [00:43:13.644 – 00:43:19.364] And he wrote to them, "Dear physicians," you know, and, uh, he expected them to, uh, to listen to him. [00:43:19.364 – 00:43:27.124] Um, prior to his death, Bill was developing a third publication on niacin, which was not completed in his lifetime. [00:43:27.124 – 00:43:32.204] His wife, Lois W., finished his work and published it in 1971. [00:43:32.204 – 00:43:42.263] Lois included a letter, uh, that you see on the right-hand side there, included a letter attached to the report in which she remarked, quote, "Bill's

[00:43:42.263 – 00:43:52.264] great hope was that continued research would find a means whereby those thousands of alcoholics who want to stop drinking but are too ill to grasp the AA program [00:43:52.264 – 00:44:02.384] could be released from their bondage and enabled to join AA." Always looking for ways to help alcoholics [00:44:02.384 – 00:44:02.984] get better. [00:44:02.984 – 00:44:08.964] The international organization of AA, despite the fact that the members were appointed by Bill W. [00:44:08.964 – 00:44:13.184] and he considered them friends, were not happy campers. [00:44:13.184 – 00:44:19.884] Uh, Bill W. spent the last 11 years of his life spreading the word about vitamin B3 therapy. [00:44:19.884 – 00:44:25.304] So who killed the vitamin B3 or niacin therapy, uh, ideas?

[00:44:25.304 – 00:44:29.644] Well, basically, there are, there are three. [00:44:29.644 – 00:44:32.144] There's other reasons, but basically there are three. [00:44:32.144 – 00:44:35.164] Who killed the vitamin B3 niacin therapy? [00:44:35.164 – 00:44:37.324] One, the niacin flush. [00:44:37.324 – 00:44:47.704] Unlike the tiny amount of B3 included in a typical multiple vitamin supplement, in order to import a clinical impact, the dose of niacin [00:44:47.704 – 00:44:53.724] generally has to be high enough to induce a flush replete with itching and profound warmth. [00:44:53.724 – 00:45:03.864] The effect is so pronounced that individuals taking niacin often mistake these symptoms for a heart attack or a stroke and end up in the ER or an acute care facility.

[00:45:03.864 – 00:45:07.504] So that kind of put some people off. [00:45:07.504 – 00:45:12.244] Secondly, of course, the AA traditions, both six and 10. [00:45:12.244 – 00:45:16.304] Six suggests that AA won't endorse, finance, or lend the AA name. [00:45:16.304 – 00:45:21.424] And of course, uh, tradition 10 suggests that AA has no opinions on outside issues. [00:45:21.424 – 00:45:31.444] And lastly, to put the, uh, final nail in the coffin, the American P. Association in 1973 revealed that they could not [00:45:31.444 – 00:45:32.404] duplicate Dr. [00:45:32.404 – 00:45:43.404] Hoffer's, uh, wonderful studies data, and therefore they could not promote niacin therapy because they just couldn't find any good, uh,

[00:45:43.404 – 00:45:46.424] uh, basic science behind it. [00:45:46.424 – 00:45:56.504] Now, in the book Not G., uh, AA historian Ernie K. says, "Further, W.'s enthusiasm [00:45:56.504 – 00:46:07.344] for this treatment of niacin was so great that he said near the end of his life that if his name were to go down in history as having made any contribution to mankind, he [00:46:07.344 – 00:46:17.584] suspected that it would more likely be for his promotion of the B3, B3 therapy than for his role in the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous." A S. [00:46:17.584 – 00:46:20.104] and surprising statement indeed. [00:46:20.104 – 00:46:29.424] Now, just very quickly, I'm gonna mention the transcendental meditation, uh, for those of you who didn't go through the '60s and '70s as I did. [00:46:29.424 – 00:46:34.464] Um, and, uh, just a, a couple of slides here.

[00:46:34.464 – 00:46:38.424] Bill W., uh, transcendental meditation, and the 11th step. [00:46:38.424 – 00:46:46.924] Lincoln N. is the National D. of Expansion for the Maharishi F. and a teacher at the San A. Transcendental M. Center. [00:46:46.924 – 00:46:50.934] Lincoln became one of the first student TM teachers in New York City. [00:46:50.934 – 00:47:00.784] During his college years, he introduced his father, Tom N., an architect and a recovering alcoholic, to transcendental meditation as well. [00:47:00.784 – 00:47:10.904] Tom N.'s AA sponsor was Helen W., a close friend of Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill W., who Lincoln taught [00:47:10.904 – 00:47:15.564] TM on a cold December day at W.'s house in Chappaqua, New York. [00:47:15.564 – 00:47:19.944] The following is based on an interview with Lincoln N..

[00:47:19.944 – 00:47:27.614] So here we have a dis- winter, bitter winter December day at Stepping S.. [00:47:27.614 – 00:47:38.004] And, uh, the interview says, "How did you meet Bill W.?" "Six to eight people, including Bill, his wife Lois, Helen W., and her son Shep, [00:47:38.004 – 00:47:43.004] attended a small meeting at Bill's house to learn about transcendental meditation from me. [00:47:43.004 – 00:47:46.804] The personal instruction to TM takes about an hour. [00:47:46.804 – 00:47:50.884] I taught Bill in his r- bedroom and left him alone to do his first meditation. [00:47:50.884 – 00:47:53.404] When I came back to get him, he was gone. [00:47:53.404 – 00:47:56.354] I came downstairs and asked, 'Has anyone seen Bill?'"

[00:47:57.252 – 00:48:07.392] Just then the door burst open and Bill came in yelling, "This thing works." Despite B.'s emphysema, he had left his room through a back staircase, run up and down [00:48:07.392 – 00:48:16.152] the stairs, then went outside and took some deep breaths of cold winter night air, something not always a good idea when you're suffering from emphysema. [00:48:16.152 – 00:48:22.892] The reason for this worked for him was that when you do TM, the mind settles down to finer levels. [00:48:22.892 – 00:48:31.732] As mind and body are completely connected, the mind takes the body with it to a very deep state of rest, often deeper than the deepest level of deep sleep. [00:48:31.732 – 00:48:40.852] Even his first 20-minute meditation allowed his body to relax so that the circulation in his ye- lungs improved and opened up. [00:48:40.852 – 00:48:50.972] During the third night of Bill's verification experience, uh, uh, three days of verifying the correctness [00:48:50.972 – 00:48:59.752] of the practice, he told me he had come, uh, he had come to…

[00:48:59.752 – 00:49:01.232] Oh, there we, I'm sorry. [00:49:01.232 – 00:49:05.032] Uh, he had come to a deeper understanding of AA's 11th step. [00:49:05.032 – 00:49:15.532] What he said to me was, I, uh, was, quote, "I f- didn't fully, I never fully unders- I didn't fully understand the 11th step until I started [00:49:15.532 – 00:49:25.571] transcendental meditation." All right, so now we're gonna go into, uh, another outside issue, [00:49:25.572 – 00:49:25.942] I guess. [00:49:25.942 – 00:49:33.892] "Research has already come up with significant and helpful findings, and research will do far more." Bill said that in 1965. [00:49:33.892 – 00:49:36.312] So after Bill left AA, what?

[00:49:36.312 – 00:49:46.652] After turning over the day-to-day management of AA to the fellowship in 1955, Ernie K. notes on page 136 to 38 of Not-God [00:49:46.652 – 00:49:53.512] that Bill's interest in three controversial issues resulted in considerable conflict between Bill and AA's board of trustees. [00:49:53.512 – 00:49:58.372] These three issues were spiritualism, niacin, and LSD. [00:49:58.372 – 00:50:08.812] In, uh, and then down there at the bottom, uh, in a very real sense, that Bill's, uh, uh, the story of Bill's sobriety [00:50:08.812 – 00:50:13.672] details the turning of his thirst for alcohol into a thirst for alcoholics. [00:50:13.672 – 00:50:22.252] That Bill also learned in those first 20 years that the main obstacle to drunks getting AA was the spiritual. [00:50:22.252 – 00:50:32.032] So spiritualism or spiritism, uh, uh, here's a rather startling statement from Bill's biographer, Matthew J.

[00:50:32.032 – 00:50:32.772] Raphael. [00:50:32.772 – 00:50:38.972] "It might be said that for the co-founder, at least, AA was entangled with spiritualism from the very beginning. [00:50:38.972 – 00:50:45.872] Today, this is somewhat puzzling, but it needs to be put in context with the, with the era in which they both came of age. [00:50:45.872 – 00:50:55.932] Uh, during the late 19th century and continuing through the first third of the 20th century, there was considerable interest among both the general populace of North A., [00:50:55.932 – 00:51:04.152] as well as esteemed psychologists, inclu- including J., Freud, and James, regarding spiritualism and the occult. [00:51:04.152 – 00:51:04.802] Both B. and Dr. [00:51:04.802 – 00:51:16.032] Bob were both interested in parapsychology, the study of paranormal mental phenomena, often excluded from study by na- mainstream psychology." Uh,

[00:51:16.032 – 00:51:26.072] as early as, uh, e- even before this, but, uh, there's a record of in 1941, Bill W. asked Ruth H. to get him, uh, the spook book, the, [00:51:26.072 – 00:51:29.312] uh, called The Unobstructed Universe. [00:51:29.312 – 00:51:31.692] So this was all very early on. [00:51:31.692 – 00:51:36.692] In their Stepping S. home, Bill and Lois had what was referred to as the spook room. [00:51:36.692 – 00:51:41.612] Uh, little, uh, advertisement here. [00:51:41.612 – 00:51:46.452] Hopefully S. Stones will be open this summer or, or fall maybe. [00:51:46.452 – 00:51:48.032] If you can, go there.

[00:51:48.032 – 00:51:49.632] It's a wonderful experience. [00:51:49.632 – 00:51:54.932] You can go into the spook room, uh, and, and other places in the house. [00:51:54.932 – 00:51:59.152] It's just a wonderful spiritual experience, actually. [00:51:59.152 – 00:52:07.152] So anyway, they had a spook room where they regularly conducted seances and uti- utilized a Ouija board to get messages from beyond this earthly realm. [00:52:07.152 – 00:52:12.332] In the spook room, there are several books relating paranormal investigations. [00:52:12.332 – 00:52:18.392] Bill considered himself an adept, someone with psychic capacity or clairvoyant powers. [00:52:18.392 – 00:52:26.632] Ernie K. notes that Bill at times conflated spiritualism with spirituality, sometimes using the terms interchangeably.

[00:52:26.632 – 00:52:36.672] Pass It On includes a description of a 1944 occasion when Bill and Lois were in Nantucket, where at breakfast Bill channeled sever- several former [00:52:36.672 – 00:52:41.252] residents, uh, uh, long dead. [00:52:41.252 – 00:52:46.492] Uh, Nantucket, uh, yeah, Patrick will tell us about that later. [00:52:46.492 – 00:52:57.132] On a visit to Nantucket, uh, in 1947, Bill was making coffee in the dim early morning light in the K. at the house of his AA host, [00:52:57.132 – 00:53:04.832] uh, when he was accosted by a shade of a Norwegian sailor complaining that he saw people dimly and that when he spoke, no one listened. [00:53:04.832 – 00:53:09.812] The sailor was soon joined by the spirit of a man who introduced himself as David M.. [00:53:09.812 – 00:53:16.182] Morrow told Bill that he'd been killed with Admiral F. during the Battle of Mobile B., and his mourning-

[00:53:16.368 – 00:53:17.698] He came and the K. grew brighter. [00:53:17.698 – 00:53:22.798] He was joined by two other spirits, former whaling captains named Peddingill and Quigley. [00:53:22.798 – 00:53:27.188] When B. told this story at breakfast, he was met with friendly disbelief. [00:53:27.188 – 00:53:31.608] People usually tried to humor Bill in order to avoid arguing with him. [00:53:31.608 – 00:53:37.008] Later in the W.' visit to Nantucket, they happened to be at the head of Main S.. [00:53:37.008 – 00:53:43.148] There they saw a small Civil W. memorial engraved with the name David M.. [00:53:43.148 – 00:53:53.168] A subsequent visit to the Nantucket W. Museum, uh, confirmed that indeed, uh, Peddingill and Quigley had been the masters of whaling ships.

[00:53:53.168 – 00:53:57.728] Bill claimed to be naturally adept at channeling spirits. [00:53:57.728 – 00:54:04.968] Another passage in Pass It On explains how that looked largely in what sounds like Bill's, uh, words. [00:54:04.968 – 00:54:07.848] "The Ouija boards got moving in earnest. [00:54:07.848 – 00:54:10.667] What followed was the fairly usual experience. [00:54:10.667 – 00:54:13.448] It was a strange mélange of Aristotle, St. [00:54:13.448 – 00:54:21.527] Francis, diverse archangels with odd names, dece- deceased friends, some in purgatory and others doing nicely, thank you. [00:54:21.527 – 00:54:29.088] There were malign and mischievous ones of all description telling of vices beyond my ken, even as former alcoholics.

[00:54:29.088 – 00:54:39.878] Then the f- seemingly virtuous would elbow them out with messages of comfort, information, advice, and sometimes just sheer nonsense." Bill [00:54:39.878 – 00:54:44.528] W. had been sober for more than two decades when he first did his acid trip with Gerald H.. [00:54:44.528 – 00:54:49.348] And, uh, Gerald H. was his spiritual guide. [00:54:49.348 – 00:54:53.508] Heard, Huxley, and W. had a lifelong interest in psychic phenomenon. [00:54:53.508 – 00:55:00.168] W.'s longtime personal secretary, Nell W., shared her boss's fascination with the paranormal. [00:55:00.168 – 00:55:09.528] In the early '40s, she wrote in her memoir, Bill and Lois often held meetings or spook sessions, as they turned them, termed them, in a small bedroom at Stepping S.. [00:55:09.528 – 00:55:18.168] And, uh, even some Bedrid H. neighbors frequently participated in these sessions and experienced unusual phenomena.

[00:55:18.168 – 00:55:23.488] In their letters, Heard and W. discussed their common fascination with psychic activity. [00:55:23.488 – 00:55:34.198] In a letter to W. in the fall of 1950, Heard discussed, uh, new research into telepathic linkage, but also included words of support for Bill, who was passing through [00:55:34.198 – 00:55:35.888] another period of melancholy. [00:55:35.888 – 00:55:46.868] "I do hope your spirits have been backing up your will and insight, and that the valley you had to go through has given place to higher ground and brighter outlook." W. [00:55:46.868 – 00:55:49.518] wrote to Heard on October 13th, 1950. [00:55:49.518 – 00:55:56.748] Most of the letter consists of Bill talking about, uh, the psychic abilities of his sister, uh, Dorothy S.. [00:55:56.748 – 00:56:04.908] W. writes that his sister had begun channeling messages from Camille F., a deceased astronomer and spiritualist.

[00:56:04.908 – 00:56:09.888] These communiques from the grave, W. writes, even contain references to Gerald H.. [00:56:09.888 – 00:56:20.388] W. tells Heard that his sister had a bad crackup and extreme emotional difficulties three years earlier, but that she had emerged from those troubles and was developing marked [00:56:20.388 – 00:56:21.568] psychic talents. [00:56:21.568 – 00:56:31.648] Heard responded to the letter within days of receiving it, and, uh, uh, he's suggesting that he and Aldous H. get together with Tom [00:56:31.648 – 00:56:35.998] Powers, a close W. associate, for another seance. [00:56:35.998 – 00:56:45.958] Um, Bill W. and Bob S. came from a different world, an old-fashioned world, uh, where the difference between the living and the dead was not as clear. [00:56:45.958 – 00:56:55.668] Sometimes the W. used a Ouija board, and sometimes they used, uh, you know, the, a table, and Bill would say, "Are there any spirits in the room?

[00:56:55.668 – 00:57:05.848] Are there any spirits who have a message for us?" Breathing slowly, the spirits seemed to gather in the room's dark corners above the shelf where Bill's violins [00:57:05.848 – 00:57:08.888] and musical intrins- uh, instruments lay. [00:57:08.888 – 00:57:13.468] Then the people sitting around the table would hear a soft, hesitant tap. [00:57:13.468 – 00:57:17.728] Sometimes if Bill had asked a direct question, the taps meant yes or no. [00:57:17.728 – 00:57:25.888] According to Bill and Lois, more often, on more than one occasion, they succeeded in levitating the table a few inches off the floor. [00:57:25.888 – 00:57:33.288] Uh, at other times, uh, W. and their guests experimented with automatic writing. [00:57:33.288 – 00:57:35.247] Bill was very good at this.

[00:57:35.247 – 00:57:40.728] He'd set a pen down on a piece of paper, close his eyes, and wait for the spirit to guide his hand. [00:57:40.728 – 00:57:50.738] On some evenings, Bill would relax his long frame out on the living room couch in front of the big stone fireplace and wait in a state of half-dreaming, half-consciousness, [00:57:50.738 – 00:57:52.668] the smoke curling up from his cigarette. [00:57:52.668 – 00:57:59.928] Lying there, he would receive messages sometimes whole, as when he heard the Reverend D. Moody warning him against the past. [00:57:59.928 – 00:58:02.688] Sometimes they would come to him letter by letter. [00:58:02.688 – 00:58:06.128] One evening, the message spelled out appeared in Latin. [00:58:06.128 – 00:58:09.108] Not knowing Latin, Bill took the message to John D.

[00:58:09.108 – 00:58:16.948] R.'s associate, Willard R., who studied it and said it appeared to be an account of early Christianity in Italy. [00:58:16.948 – 00:58:26.208] In N. Wynn's version of this story, Willard R. was in m- in the room while Bill was receiving the message, and the Latin turned out to be a sermon written by St. [00:58:26.208 – 00:58:26.828] Boniface. [00:58:26.828 – 00:58:35.638] Well, Bill, uh, enthusiastically wrote to his Catholic priest friend, Father Ed D., uh- [00:58:36.024 – 00:58:44.664] Telling about the, uh, help and guidance he was receiving from the spirits of the dead while writing his second book, Twelve Steps and Twelve T.. [00:58:44.664 – 00:58:48.624] Father D.'s response, response was less enthusiastic. [00:58:48.624 – 00:58:53.424] He felt that Bill was messing with lying s- evil spirits from the dark side.

[00:58:53.424 – 00:59:03.494] Um, Bill and Lois came to hold frequent Saturday evening spook sessions at Stepping S., joined by such friends as Anne and [00:59:03.494 – 00:59:05.404] DeVoe, Ruth and Wilbert, Tom P. [00:59:05.404 – 00:59:06.444] and Adelaide, and Dr. [00:59:06.444 – 00:59:08.804] Bob and Annie when they were in town. [00:59:08.804 – 00:59:18.564] They would conduct a psychic experience with the Ouija board and, and, uh, in the downstairs bedroom that was quickly dubbed by Anne B. as the spook room. [00:59:18.564 – 00:59:22.704] Anne B. was the co-founder of Al-Anon along with Lois. [00:59:22.704 – 00:59:31.654] While reluctant to discuss all that went on because of its somewhat controversial nature, Lois did describe once how some of the dramatic sessions were conducted.

[00:59:31.654 – 00:59:34.784] She said Bill would lie down on the couch. [00:59:34.784 – 00:59:39.493] People would come in, people would come in, and they'd carry on some story. [00:59:39.493 – 00:59:46.504] There would be long sentences Bill would utter sometimes in different languages, and Anne would try to write them down. [00:59:46.504 – 00:59:52.844] Lois said sometimes it made sense and sometimes it didn't, and sometimes even stranger things would happen. [00:59:52.844 – 01:00:03.004] While L. would tease, uh, about Bill's flaws, she was always willing to expound, uh, on her husband's positive attributes and accomplishments. [01:00:03.004 – 01:00:11.864] However, she was reticent when it came to discussing these events that created controversy in AA, uh, or, uh, Al-Anon. [01:00:11.864 – 01:00:18.124] Two major controversies actually began with a chance meeting with the famed physicist, Dr.

[01:00:18.124 – 01:00:18.524] J. [01:00:18.524 – 01:00:22.284] Robert O., known as the father of the atomic bomb. [01:00:22.284 – 01:00:28.224] Lois and Bill had finally saved enough money to take a two-week vacation at Trunk B. in the Caribbean. [01:00:28.224 – 01:00:32.184] They found themselves staying at the same resort as the Oppenheimers. [01:00:32.184 – 01:00:36.114] The couples hit it off, and during long walks on the beach, Dr. [01:00:36.114 – 01:00:46.233] Oppenheimer, after hearing about his friend's alcoholism and lifelong bouts with depression, revealed his efforts to discover the possible chemical composition of neuroses, [01:00:46.233 – 01:00:48.544] especially in the form of depression.

[01:00:48.544 – 01:00:58.704] He invited Bill to visit his Institute for Advanced S. at, uh, Princeton U. to evaluate his work at the chemist- uh, on the chemistry [01:00:58.704 – 01:00:59.284] of the brain. [01:00:59.284 – 01:01:01.464] Perhaps another factor that sparked Dr. [01:01:01.464 – 01:01:07.064] Oppenheimer's interest was Bill's fascination and involvement with psychic phenomena. [01:01:07.064 – 01:01:16.124] And, uh, here's just a quick, uh, shot of Oppenheimer B. on St. [01:01:16.124 – 01:01:19.864] John in the US, uh, Virgin I.. [01:01:19.864 – 01:01:22.744] Anyway, I just had to throw that in.

[01:01:22.744 – 01:01:24.784] Uh, Lois revealed that Dr. [01:01:24.784 – 01:01:36.124] Oppenheimer actually invited her husband to work with him at Princeton, mainly to oversee the research being done on the possible physiological and chemical aspects [01:01:36.124 – 01:01:42.654] of depression, a problem Bill had always approached in terms of its psychological and spiritual ramifications. [01:01:42.654 – 01:01:47.244] None the lower, nevertheless, Lois said Bill's frequent visits to Dr. [01:01:47.244 – 01:01:57.244] Oppenheimer's institute and their numerous conversations opened his mind to many new discoveries that might help those in the fellowship suffering as he did from other maladies [01:01:57.244 – 01:02:00.624] related to or beyond the disease of alcoholism. [01:02:00.624 – 01:02:07.084] In fact, Bill W.'s life can be seen as a struggle to achieve peaceful separations.

[01:02:07.084 – 01:02:10.504] His parents and his first girlfriend were torn away from him. [01:02:10.504 – 01:02:14.384] Lois stayed with him even when she perhaps should have left. [01:02:14.384 – 01:02:20.864] Male friends and colleagues like Hank P. and Tom P. stormed off after working with him. [01:02:20.864 – 01:02:25.704] It was in the task of separating from the program that he had the worst time. [01:02:25.704 – 01:02:29.584] Was it fair that everything he did had a huge a, effect on AA? [01:02:29.584 – 01:02:30.374] No. [01:02:30.374 – 01:02:33.274] In his last years, Bill stopped going to meetings.

[01:02:33.274 – 01:02:41.384] He was unable to be anonymous in any meeting, he complained, so he never got the benefit the meetings had for normally recovering alcoholics. [01:02:41.384 – 01:02:47.444] Some AA members concluded that his depressions might mean that AA didn't work. [01:02:47.444 – 01:02:53.664] They now decided that Bill's search for voices beyond the grave somehow cast aspersions on the program. [01:02:53.664 – 01:03:03.804] Closer to home, the men who worked with Bill almost every day, sophisticated men and women who had come from fields like advertising and publishing, were concerned about Bill's [01:03:03.804 – 01:03:07.924] activities in the spook room and on the living room couch at Stepping S.. [01:03:07.924 – 01:03:13.264] Some members thought the psychic activity Bill endud- indulged in made him look crazy. [01:03:13.264 – 01:03:21.484] Uh, others who actually believed that he was able to summon spirits from another world were afraid that he was speaking with evil spirits.

[01:03:21.484 – 01:03:31.484] One of the members of the Chappa- Chappaqua AA group, Tom P., remembers that he and a group of fellow recovering alcoholics got so upset about [01:03:31.484 – 01:03:34.004] Bill's spooking that they decided to do something about it. [01:03:34.004 – 01:03:42.624] To the men who counted themselves as followers, many of Bill's activities seemed to, came to seem once becoming, unbecoming to a great leader. [01:03:42.624 – 01:03:46.924] Since B. W. never wanted to be a leader, he was not inclined to listen. [01:03:46.924 – 01:03:55.474] The Chappaqua group met in the small, wealthy town of Chappaqua near Bedford H., and had become the self-appointed guardian of local AA- [01:03:55.692 – 01:04:01.412] Powers, was joined by another recovering alcoholic named Summer C. and a few of the men who worked with Bill. [01:04:01.412 – 01:04:07.032] Uh, another one of the men, Tony G., wrote to a man they all respected, C.S.

[01:04:07.032 – 01:04:14.632] Lewis at Cambridge, England, to describe Bill's and Lois's activities and to ask what he, Lewis, thought of them. [01:04:14.632 – 01:04:16.352] Tom P. [01:04:16.352 – 01:04:20.512] remembers that Lewis wrote back with total disapproval. [01:04:20.512 – 01:04:22.752] "This is necromancy," he wrote. [01:04:22.752 – 01:04:32.612] "Have nothing to do with it." Apparently, Bill's colleagues thought that an indictment from a man like Lewis would influence Bill to change his private beliefs. [01:04:32.612 – 01:04:35.472] Apparently, they didn't know him very well. [01:04:35.472 – 01:04:45.952] By this time, Bill and Lois were drawing away from many rules and regulations that the membership of Alcoholics Anonymous

[01:04:45.952 – 01:04:47.792] would have liked to impose on their lives. [01:04:47.792 – 01:04:52.452] So despite the controversy, they continued to communicate with spirits. [01:04:52.452 – 01:05:03.052] In the evening with a few friends, they would watch the light fade through the big oak and maple trees and arrange themselves around a table in the room at the back of the house [01:05:03.052 – 01:05:07.712] or in the wooden and upholstered chairs in the double-height living room in front of the big fireplace. [01:05:07.712 – 01:05:12.672] Sometimes they would be joined by believing neighbors, sometimes by A.A. [01:05:12.672 – 01:05:18.492] visitors from out of town, sometimes by one or two people from the office or one of the local A.A. [01:05:18.492 – 01:05:18.972] groups.

[01:05:18.972 – 01:05:22.112] Their seances were never a secret. [01:05:22.112 – 01:05:32.212] Bill and Lois had a rich past together, and on these evenings they were in the presence of the past, in the company of the Yankee householders clustered around their [01:05:32.212 – 01:05:36.052] K. table on cold nights before they had electricity. [01:05:36.052 – 01:05:38.692] They were in the presence of all their own dead. [01:05:38.692 – 01:05:48.982] Bill's cousin Clarence, whose sad violin had been Bill's first fiddle, and the stern Thayet and Ella G., Bill's of Lois's beloved mother and her handsome [01:05:48.982 – 01:05:55.292] father who read Swedenborg's teachings to his children in the Clinton S. living room. [01:05:55.292 – 01:05:59.312] All of these who had passed on before them.

[01:05:59.312 – 01:06:07.612] A quiet would come over them, almost as if they were conducting a group meditation. [01:06:07.612 – 01:06:12.692] Lois would calm her beating heart and gaze out at her garden. [01:06:12.692 – 01:06:17.232] Up the hill in the fading light she could just make out the outline of Wit's End. [01:06:17.232 – 01:06:24.912] Bill would take his place on the long sofa, one of the few pieces of furniture that could accommodate his entire length. [01:06:24.912 – 01:06:29.332] Outside they could hear birdsong, the warblers and finches from the garden. [01:06:29.332 – 01:06:37.412] Sometimes B. would unfold his body from the sofa, take down one of his violins and saw out some sweet country tune. [01:06:37.412 – 01:06:43.592] Then he would lie down and there would be silence again in the room, now lit with a few candles.

[01:06:43.592 – 01:06:52.652] There would be a slight, almost imperceptible stir in the silent air, as if someone had come invisibly to keep them company. [01:06:52.652 – 01:06:55.492] The curtains rustled in the evening breeze. [01:06:55.492 – 01:06:58.362] The smoke rising from the ashtray wavered. [01:06:58.362 – 01:07:07.652] The smell of the outdoors, the new moon grass in the summer or smoke from the piles of burning leaves in the autumn would fade from their senses. [01:07:07.652 – 01:07:12.812] Even the sounds from nature seemed to enter the trance. [01:07:12.812 – 01:07:17.572] They could hear a silence beyond silence. [01:07:17.572 – 01:07:27.632] So we have

[01:07:27.632 – 01:07:37.092] looked at some of Bill W. and some of those outside issues, niacin therapy, spiritism, transcendental meditation and Helen W.. [01:07:37.092 – 01:07:47.222] And looking at a little bit of the private life and ideas and concepts of Bill W., the man, the writer and [01:07:47.222 – 01:07:47.792] the seeker. [01:07:47.792 – 01:07:54.652] And I'm going to end up the way that I did last week because it just seems appropriate to me. [01:07:54.652 – 01:08:04.192] Bill W. in his reply to a 1960 letter mailed to him from a group in Chicago that was taking his inventory. [01:08:04.192 – 01:08:07.262] Bill was 26 years sober at the time. [01:08:07.262 – 01:08:17.292] Bill answers this person who was taking his inventory and he says, Dear B., that you seem disillusioned with me personally may be a new and painful experience

[01:08:17.292 – 01:08:21.812] for you, but many members have had that experience with me. [01:08:21.812 – 01:08:32.372] Most of their pain has been caused not only by my several shortcomings, but by their own insistence on placing me, a drunk, trying to get along with other folks [01:08:32.372 – 01:08:39.072] upon a completely illusory pedestal, the station which no fallible person could possibly occupy. [01:08:39.072 – 01:08:45.492] I'm sure that you will understand that I have never held myself out to anybody as either a saint or a superman. [01:08:45.492 – 01:08:54.212] I have repeatedly and truthfully said that AA is full of people who have made more spiritual progress than I ever have or can make. [01:08:54.212 – 01:09:00.372] That in some areas of living I have made some decided gains, but in others I seem to have stood still. [01:09:00.372 – 01:09:03.842] And in still other ways I may have gone backwards.

[01:09:03.842 – 01:09:10.292] I'm sorry that you are disillusioned with me, but I am happy that even I have found a life here. [01:09:15.548 – 01:09:16.268] Thank you very much. [01:09:16.268 – 01:09:17.068] I hope you enjoy it Wow. [01:09:17.068 – 01:09:21.628] Th- thank you ever so much for all your efforts, Jim W. in Cancun, Mexico. [01:09:21.628 – 01:09:23.008] Please unmute if you'd like to. [01:09:23.008 – 01:09:24.568] I, I'm think I've allow you unmute. [01:09:24.568 – 01:09:25.488] There you go.

[01:09:25.488 – 01:09:26.628] You can unmute. [01:09:26.628 – 01:09:27.968] Yep, I think… [01:09:27.968 – 01:09:29.408] Beg your pardon, wrong button. [01:09:29.408 – 01:09:29.968] There you go. [01:09:29.968 – 01:09:30.788] Should be able to do it now. [01:09:30.788 – 01:09:31.368] Thank you, Jim. [01:09:31.368 – 01:09:32.008] That was great.

[01:09:32.008 – 01:09:32.928] Thank you, Jim. [01:09:32.928 – 01:09:33.038] Yeah. [01:09:33.038 – 01:09:33.728] That was great. [01:09:33.728 – 01:09:34.638] Thank you, Jim. [01:09:34.638 – 01:09:34.639] Thank you. [01:09:34.639 – 01:09:34.640] Thank you. [01:09:34.640 – 01:09:35.328] Appreciate it.

[01:09:35.328 – 01:09:36.128] Thank you so much. [01:09:36.128 – 01:09:36.718] Thank you, Jim. [01:09:36.718 – 01:09:37.408] Awesome. [01:09:37.408 – 01:09:38.128] That was so interesting. [01:09:38.128 – 01:09:39.478] Thank you, Jim. [01:09:39.478 – 01:09:39.479] Thank you. [01:09:39.479 – 01:09:39.758] Wow.

[01:09:39.758 – 01:09:40.868] Thank you. [01:09:40.868 – 01:09:41.348] Thank you, Jim. [01:09:41.348 – 01:09:42.968] Great job, Jim. [01:09:42.968 – 01:09:44.168] Thank you, Jim. [01:09:44.168 – 01:09:45.808] Thank you, thank you, thank you, man. [01:09:45.808 – 01:09:46.928] Wow, Jim. [01:09:46.928 – 01:09:47.568] Thank you, Jim.

[01:09:47.568 – 01:09:48.168] Great job. [01:09:48.168 – 01:09:49.428] Absolutely fascinating. [01:09:49.428 – 01:09:50.248] Thank you so much. [01:09:50.248 – 01:09:52.708] Awesome, man. [01:09:52.708 – 01:09:53.008] Awesome. [01:09:53.008 – 01:09:54.218] Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. [01:09:54.218 – 01:09:54.219] Wow, wow, wow.

[01:09:54.219 – 01:09:54.628] I agree. [01:09:54.628 – 01:09:55.788] I second that. [01:09:55.788 – 01:09:57.248] I second that. [01:09:57.248 – 01:09:57.968] Thank you, Jim. [01:09:57.968 – 01:09:59.768] Uh, wow, wow, wow. [01:09:59.768 – 01:10:01.518] Thank you all very much. [01:10:01.518 – 01:10:04.437] We have Bob K- Bob K. is here from, uh, The Key Players.

[01:10:04.437 – 01:10:06.608] And Bob, would you like to say hello to us, Bob? [01:10:06.608 – 01:10:08.408] I'll just put the spotlight on you for a second. [01:10:08.408 – 01:10:11.268] Jim was mentioning that your book is coming out soon. [01:10:11.268 – 01:10:13.088] Can you hear me, Bob? [01:10:13.088 – 01:10:14.528] There you are. [01:10:14.528 – 01:10:15.128] Hello, Bob. [01:10:15.128 – 01:10:19.348] He'll come back to us in a second.

[01:10:19.348 – 01:10:21.367] Yeah, delighted to be here. [01:10:21.367 – 01:10:23.148] Go ahead, Bob. [01:10:23.148 – 01:10:23.688] It's all yours. [01:10:23.688 – 01:10:24.808] Hello. [01:10:24.808 – 01:10:26.708] Yeah. [01:10:26.708 – 01:10:32.768] I, uh, I have a brother named David K., but I don't think you're him. [01:10:32.768 – 01:10:35.288] Yeah.

[01:10:35.288 – 01:10:37.078] I may not even have the gr- And a spiritual… [01:10:37.078 – 01:10:38.408] And a spiritual relative by Abednego. [01:10:38.408 – 01:10:44.688] I don't think I have got the greatest internet here, so, uh, you may not be hearing me well. [01:10:44.688 – 01:10:48.828] But I said I have a brother named David K., but I don't think you're him. [01:10:48.828 – 01:10:51.648] Not even nearly as well as you. [01:10:51.648 – 01:10:53.408] Thank you. [01:10:53.408 – 01:10:53.458] Yeah.

[01:10:53.458 – 01:10:54.508] Bob, your book is coming out. [01:10:54.508 – 01:10:55.598] Do you know when that's coming out? [01:10:55.598 – 01:11:00.548] This, Jim, Jim- He may not be as well as you, but he's got 15 or 20 million bucks, so he's okay. [01:11:00.548 – 01:11:05.668] Bob, do you, can you tell us when your- Anyway, Jim is a terrific presenter. [01:11:05.668 – 01:11:09.048] I, I, uh, seen him a couple of times before. [01:11:09.048 – 01:11:11.508] Uh, that Bob K. [01:11:11.508 – 01:11:13.408] guy sounds fab.

[01:11:13.408 – 01:11:19.208] Bob, can you tell us when, uh, the second edition is coming out, would you? [01:11:19.208 – 01:11:20.448] I'm sure people would like to know. [01:11:20.448 – 01:11:24.557] No, I have, I have about five projects going right now. [01:11:24.557 – 01:11:30.048] A great idea and not a good- Well, thanks for all your efforts as well. [01:11:30.048 – 01:11:31.808] I'm sure I speak on behalf of everyone here. [01:11:31.808 – 01:11:34.468] Yeah, I- And thank you for all the work you do. [01:11:34.468 – 01:11:35.038] Thank you …

[01:11:35.038 – 01:11:35.078] may not. [01:11:35.078 – 01:11:36.908] No, I don't know. [01:11:36.908 – 01:11:38.908] Thank you. [01:11:38.908 – 01:11:38.958] Thank you. [01:11:38.958 – 01:11:39.628] Thank you, Bob. [01:11:39.628 – 01:11:42.028] Glad you're here, and thank you for all your support. [01:11:42.028 – 01:11:47.668] Uh, just before, while you're getting your questions ready, I just wanna bring to your attention some stuff that's coming up.

[01:11:47.668 – 01:11:54.247] Uh, just we- we're also involved in, um, growing and understanding A group reading Zoom meeting every Thursday. [01:11:54.247 – 01:11:57.708] And this week we're gonna be reading chapter 13- Yeah, I think, uh, I have bad internet. [01:11:57.708 – 01:12:01.328] Okay, Bob, no worries. [01:12:01.328 – 01:12:03.468] Uh, thank you for your time. [01:12:03.468 – 01:12:04.268] We appreciate it. [01:12:04.268 – 01:12:05.468] Thank you. [01:12:05.468 – 01:12:14.328] So this week we're gonna be reading, uh, chapter 13, This Week Magazine, and we have reader Matthew M. or Sandra P..

[01:12:14.328 – 01:12:14.688] Oh, no. [01:12:14.688 – 01:12:16.497] I'd better mute you, Bob. [01:12:16.497 – 01:12:19.468] First of all, we must start an A group reading Zoom meeting every Thursday. [01:12:19.468 – 01:12:20.448] I'll just mute Bob. [01:12:20.448 – 01:12:22.888] And not a good idea to mute Bob in all due respect to Bob. [01:12:22.888 – 01:12:24.228] Well, there we go. [01:12:24.228 – 01:12:24.628] We're back.

[01:12:24.628 – 01:12:27.848] Who's- Okay. [01:12:27.848 – 01:12:28.288] We're good. [01:12:28.288 – 01:12:28.648] We're good. [01:12:28.648 – 01:12:28.988] We're good. [01:12:28.988 – 01:12:29.188] Take… [01:12:29.188 – 01:12:31.248] I love, I love being li- it's li- good. [01:12:31.248 – 01:12:33.748] So who, who's got me on…

[01:12:33.748 – 01:12:35.608] Can someone mute me now, please? [01:12:35.608 – 01:12:37.768] Yeah. [01:12:37.768 – 01:12:38.628] Are we good? [01:12:38.628 – 01:12:40.668] See, you miss Stuart all the same. [01:12:40.668 – 01:12:42.648] You think Stuart does nothing, but he does stuff, don't he? [01:12:42.648 – 01:12:43.868] I know he's not… [01:12:43.868 – 01:12:46.348] He's not, he's not here.

[01:12:46.348 – 01:12:48.128] No, but no worries. [01:12:48.128 – 01:12:49.228] We'll just keep going on with this. [01:12:49.228 – 01:12:49.628] It's, uh… [01:12:49.628 – 01:12:50.148] we'll go to Jim. [01:12:50.148 – 01:12:55.268] We're gonna have the questions, Q&A shortly, but chapter 13, This Week Magazine, this is all about, uh, Hank getting… [01:12:55.268 – 01:12:59.268] Look, just he said, "The game plan they had been following for the past several months was obviously not working. [01:12:59.268 – 01:13:01.548] Clearly, a different approach was clearly needed.

[01:13:01.548 – 01:13:03.268] Not surprisingly, Henry G. [01:13:03.268 – 01:13:04.348] Parkus had a plan. [01:13:04.348 – 01:13:09.568] So the plan was to contact, uh, Silas B. about, uh, an article in This Week Magazine. [01:13:09.568 – 01:13:13.388] And that's every Thursday at, uh, 7:30 PM in the UK. [01:13:13.388 – 01:13:14.568] Okay. [01:13:14.568 – 01:13:16.768] I just wanna try and get to Jim's flyer for you. [01:13:16.768 – 01:13:18.527] Um, we have this coming up soon.

[01:13:18.527 – 01:13:21.188] Um, practicing these principles. [01:13:21.188 – 01:13:28.868] Um, it's gonna be a two-part talk with Mildred F. out of, uh, Toronto, I think, Eddie G., I'm right in saying that. [01:13:28.868 – 01:13:33.937] Practicing these principles, applying four-dimensional principles to our third dimension life. [01:13:33.937 – 01:13:37.568] And I was speaking to Mildred just the other day, and we're looking forward to having that coming up. [01:13:37.568 – 01:13:41.528] Growing spiritually, each one of us is unique, seeing life differently. [01:13:41.528 – 01:13:42.128] Wow. [01:13:42.128 – 01:13:45.148] How we develop our relationship with God as we understand him.

[01:13:45.148 – 01:13:47.228] Oh, brilliant stuff. [01:13:47.228 – 01:13:50.708] Okay, we're gonna go back down this way. [01:13:50.708 – 01:13:51.908] Jim, I'm trying to get that for you. [01:13:51.908 – 01:13:52.588] I beg your pardon. [01:13:52.588 – 01:13:59.168] This is, uh, t- tonight, uh, Tuesday night history Zoom meeting, um, recoveryspeakers.com, the book that started it all. [01:13:59.168 – 01:14:03.608] They're doing a talk with the original working manuscript of Alcoholics Anonymous, and that's with Ken R. [01:14:03.608 – 01:14:06.868] A lot of thanks to Ken there, and Mike F..

[01:14:06.868 – 01:14:09.078] So that's on this Tuesday coming, March 8. [01:14:09.078 – 01:14:12.668] And I believe Patrick O'D is gonna be there on, uh, March 15th. [01:14:12.668 – 01:14:14.748] Let me get back to Patrick at the end of this. [01:14:14.748 – 01:14:16.018] So this is next week. [01:14:16.018 – 01:14:16.818] Oh, there, Jim, in the end. [01:14:16.818 – 01:14:18.148] This is next week, Jim. [01:14:18.148 – 01:14:22.848] Do you wanna give us a quick intro into that, Jim, ple- uh All right.

[01:14:22.848 – 01:14:32.968] Next, uh, next week, uh, w- we ended up with 1965, uh, today, and we'll go from 1965 up until Bill's death in, in, [01:14:32.968 – 01:14:34.318] uh, 1971 [01:14:35.004 – 01:14:45.264] And, uh, cover some of, uh, some of the things that, uh, both our, our mothers told us and AA told us not to talk about in polite company: [01:14:45.264 – 01:14:46.864] politics and religion. [01:14:46.864 – 01:14:56.624] And, um, we'll- we'll talk about, uh, politics and religion, uh, in, in their relationship to Bill W.. [01:14:56.624 – 01:15:00.024] And, uh, a- and also- Mm … [01:15:00.024 – 01:15:02.134] uh, his, uh, his death.

[01:15:02.134 – 01:15:03.664] We'll talk about that, too. [01:15:03.664 – 01:15:07.364] So hopefully it'll be, uh, it'll be interesting, too. [01:15:07.364 – 01:15:09.644] Well, if it's half as good as tonight, we'll look forward to it. [01:15:09.644 – 01:15:14.824] I mean, I, growing up in Ireland, I was always told never talk about politics and religion when you're drinking whiskey. [01:15:14.824 – 01:15:20.004] So we're gonna go straight into the Q&A. [01:15:20.004 – 01:15:23.764] I have put Jim's, uh, contact details into… [01:15:23.764 – 01:15:25.424] Mike, kind of what you said, Mike.

[01:15:25.424 – 01:15:26.804] Tell S. what you said. [01:15:26.804 – 01:15:27.804] Thank you. [01:15:27.804 – 01:15:28.804] Thank you, Mike. [01:15:28.804 – 01:15:29.864] But, yeah, if you… [01:15:29.864 – 01:15:34.724] I put Jim's, uh, details, contact details in the chat if you wanna contact Jim. [01:15:34.724 – 01:15:37.944] Jim, you said that email is good, Jim, yeah? [01:15:37.944 – 01:15:39.163] I…

[01:15:39.163 – 01:15:41.744] jimincancun@gmail.com. [01:15:41.744 – 01:15:42.324] Brilliant. [01:15:42.324 – 01:15:42.844] Thank you, Jim. [01:15:42.844 – 01:15:44.804] Okay, so this is not a discussion meeting. [01:15:44.804 – 01:15:45.864] We're quickly going through this, Jim. [01:15:45.864 – 01:15:46.264] You ready? [01:15:46.264 – 01:15:46.784] There we go.

[01:15:46.784 – 01:15:47.924] We're going to Alan. [01:15:47.924 – 01:15:48.554] Mm-hmm. [01:15:48.554 – 01:15:49.804] Sh- Alan, can you put on your video? [01:15:49.804 – 01:15:50.964] We'd appreciate that if you can. [01:15:50.964 – 01:15:52.024] If you can't, that's okay, too. [01:15:52.024 – 01:15:52.464] I got you. [01:15:52.464 – 01:15:53.284] Thank you, Alan.

[01:15:53.284 – 01:15:53.584] Go ahead. [01:15:53.584 – 01:15:54.124] It's all yours. [01:15:54.124 – 01:15:55.004] Okay. [01:15:55.004 – 01:15:56.124] I just wanna mention, uh… [01:15:56.124 – 01:15:58.144] First of all, Jim, that was fantastic. [01:15:58.144 – 01:16:00.324] David, thanks for taking the meeting. [01:16:00.324 – 01:16:10.344] Um, the whole thing was bringing on a lot of feelings for me when you were talking about all the things that Bill was trying, and we've all gone

[01:16:10.344 – 01:16:15.924] through a lot of that stuff, whether it be people, places, and things or medic- you know, uh, vitamins and… [01:16:15.924 – 01:16:18.424] But the ending was fantastic. [01:16:18.424 – 01:16:20.704] I mean, you just pulled it together- Mm … [01:16:20.704 – 01:16:21.904] when you read that letter. [01:16:21.904 – 01:16:31.924] That letter was really a humbling letter to bring down Bill to a human being instead of this mastermind, and we- we seemed to make him [01:16:31.924 – 01:16:34.124] into a mastermind, you know? [01:16:34.124 – 01:16:41.644] And he was a struggling guy, as he talks about in Emotional S. when he talks about the depression he was going through.

[01:16:41.644 – 01:16:41.654] Yes. [01:16:41.654 – 01:16:51.744] And he finally came across the, um, the Saint F. prayer and says, "Maybe this will work." And he didn't go into a depression after he, a- after he figured that out, [01:16:51.744 – 01:16:54.064] that maybe I'm not here to be a big shot. [01:16:54.064 – 01:16:57.484] Maybe I'm here to just be of help with nothing in return. [01:16:57.484 – 01:17:00.464] Just another human being, you know? [01:17:00.464 – 01:17:01.863] Um- Thank you. [01:17:01.863 – 01:17:02.664] I felt Alan, do you have a- …

[01:17:02.664 – 01:17:03.474] uplifted that. [01:17:03.474 – 01:17:04.364] Brilliant T. you so much. [01:17:04.364 – 01:17:05.824] Tha- thank you, Alan. [01:17:05.824 – 01:17:06.154] Thank you so much. [01:17:06.154 – 01:17:07.584] Jim, do you wanna make reference to anything? [01:17:07.584 – 01:17:08.744] Alan, appreciate that. [01:17:08.744 – 01:17:09.704] Jim, do you wanna jump in on that?

[01:17:09.704 – 01:17:10.904] No, no, just, uh… [01:17:10.904 – 01:17:11.744] Thank you very much. [01:17:11.744 – 01:17:13.444] Uh, you know, I just, uh… [01:17:13.444 – 01:17:17.024] My sponsor always tells me I'm just another bozo on the bus. [01:17:17.024 – 01:17:20.104] Uh, you know, garden variety alcoholic. [01:17:20.104 – 01:17:26.284] Uh, I'm not always pleased with that, but, uh, I like to think that I'm… [01:17:26.284 – 01:17:29.324] Uh, one guy says I'm on the special bus.

[01:17:29.324 – 01:17:32.644] Um- Dave McDonald says that, right. [01:17:32.644 – 01:17:33.024] Yeah. [01:17:33.024 – 01:17:34.584] Dave always says that. [01:17:34.584 – 01:17:35.074] That's right. [01:17:35.074 – 01:17:37.404] I'm the special bus, but I need to put a helmet on. [01:17:37.404 – 01:17:40.044] But, uh, anyway, yeah. [01:17:40.044 – 01:17:42.124] And, uh, and- and we put…

[01:17:42.124 – 01:17:44.604] You know, we put Bill up there. [01:17:44.604 – 01:17:47.264] And, uh, and then, uh… [01:17:47.264 – 01:17:50.424] Yeah, I- I just, uh… [01:17:50.424 – 01:17:55.224] I'm not trying to knock Bill down in any way, shape, or form. [01:17:55.224 – 01:17:55.374] No, no, not saying that. [01:17:55.374 – 01:18:01.844] Just to share some of the things that have been shared by other historians through the years that, uh… [01:18:01.844 – 01:18:06.424] A- And, and believe me, you can find lots of stuff on the internet.

[01:18:06.424 – 01:18:16.364] Just like with any politics or religion or anything you wanna believe in, if you want some confirmation bias, you can find- … [01:18:16.364 – 01:18:18.484] on the internet, you know? [01:18:18.484 – 01:18:29.344] And, uh, you know, just like, uh, uh, Abraham L. said, "Don't believe everything you, uh, read on the internet." Um- But, uh, [01:18:29.344 – 01:18:33.744] uh, you know, you can find things, really salacious things. [01:18:33.744 – 01:18:35.044] You can find things that… [01:18:35.044 – 01:18:38.504] You know, you can find everything, all the- Oh, hello … [01:18:38.504 – 01:18:45.264] but I tried to, uh, stick just to historians who had done research and, and written about it.

[01:18:45.264 – 01:18:49.024] And, uh, um, we're all human, you know? [01:18:49.024 – 01:18:54.183] It says so, and we all have problem- we all have our struggle and our journey, and Bill had his. [01:18:54.183 – 01:18:55.363] Thank you, Jim. [01:18:55.363 – 01:18:57.564] We're going over to, uh, our friend Hugh. [01:18:57.564 – 01:18:58.264] H- Hello, Hugh. [01:18:58.264 – 01:18:59.304] Third L. Group. [01:18:59.304 – 01:19:00.844] Hey, everyone.

[01:19:00.844 – 01:19:01.604] I'm an alcoholic. [01:19:01.604 – 01:19:02.284] My name's Hugh. [01:19:02.284 – 01:19:06.044] And, um, that was great, Jim. [01:19:06.044 – 01:19:12.104] For a bozo on the bus, you sure have a lot of information, and I enjoy soaking up. [01:19:12.104 – 01:19:17.524] And, um, I- I didn't hear any criticism of Bill in that. [01:19:17.524 – 01:19:23.404] I just heard a presentation of what the best version of the truth that we have at this point. [01:19:23.404 – 01:19:25.524] I do have one question, though.

[01:19:25.524 – 01:19:34.024] Do you have a date for that day that, um, the winter day that Bill, uh, that everybody learned transcendental meditation? [01:19:34.024 – 01:19:36.904] Uh, no. [01:19:36.904 – 01:19:38.184] It- It just, uh… [01:19:38.184 – 01:19:40.364] I think it just said December day. [01:19:40.364 – 01:19:41.744] Uh, but, uh- Okay … [01:19:41.744 – 01:19:43.024] here, I don't know. [01:19:43.024 – 01:19:45.064] I can, I can maybe look into that.

[01:19:45.064 – 01:19:49.804] Uh, but no, I don't have a specific, uh, uh, date on that. [01:19:49.804 – 01:19:51.204] By the way, I had a… [01:19:51.204 – 01:19:54.244] You know, there was a mention of, uh, Swedenborg- [01:19:54.532 – 01:19:54.912] Uh, there. [01:19:54.912 – 01:19:56.672] And, uh, I actually had a… [01:19:56.672 – 01:20:01.672] You know, I have about 100 slides hidden, you know, that, uh, just no time. [01:20:01.672 – 01:20:10.412] And I had a couple slides on Swedenborg and, and, uh, the things that, uh, uh, you know, come into there, you know.

[01:20:10.412 – 01:20:12.612] But anyway, maybe another day. [01:20:12.612 – 01:20:13.972] Maybe. [01:20:13.972 – 01:20:14.832] Thank you. [01:20:14.832 – 01:20:16.052] Thank you, Hugh. [01:20:16.052 – 01:20:16.162] Thank you. [01:20:16.162 – 01:20:16.752] Good to see you. [01:20:16.752 – 01:20:18.192] Vas- Vasu.

[01:20:18.192 – 01:20:19.472] I think Vasu in Dallas. [01:20:19.472 – 01:20:20.212] Hello, Vasu. [01:20:20.212 – 01:20:21.092] Yes. [01:20:21.092 – 01:20:22.932] My name is Vasu, an alcoholic. [01:20:22.932 – 01:20:27.212] Uh, Jim, it's again a- a wonderful, wonderful presentation. [01:20:27.212 – 01:20:37.432] Um, you know, all these kind of news that we kind of hear hush-hush, um, but I think you have thrown a different [01:20:37.432 – 01:20:38.232] perspective.

[01:20:38.232 – 01:20:46.132] Um, but it no way reduces my regards for Jim. [01:20:46.132 – 01:20:47.232] I mean Bill W.. [01:20:47.232 – 01:20:49.652] I mean, everybody is a human being, you know. [01:20:49.652 – 01:20:53.292] We always talk about even Roland H., did he stay sober or not? [01:20:53.292 – 01:20:54.052] Doesn't matter. [01:20:54.052 – 01:20:56.072] He brought the news to this world. [01:20:56.072 – 01:20:57.872] That's all we are concerned.

[01:20:57.872 – 01:21:06.492] One thing, uh, my question is, um, there are news that, uh, Bill had smoked himself to death. [01:21:06.492 – 01:21:15.252] Is there anything that he attempted, even though he had emphysema, he still was smoking even with the oxygen mask and things like that. [01:21:15.252 – 01:21:20.392] Is there anything that says why he never attempted to quit smoking? [01:21:20.392 – 01:21:22.292] That's all I have. [01:21:22.292 – 01:21:23.592] Yeah. [01:21:23.592 – 01:21:33.592] Ab- about the only thing that, uh, uh, we talked about that I think in part one a little bit, but, uh, Bill wrote something earlier, actually in the [01:21:33.592 – 01:21:43.732] '40s, and, uh, and he said, uh, "You know, I know I have a bad habit." You know, of course, it's not an obsession

[01:21:43.732 – 01:21:52.112] like alcohol was, but my smoking, uh, you know, it's a bad habit and if it ever comes to, you know, gets to be a bad problem, then I'll leave it. [01:21:52.112 – 01:21:52.712] I'll quit it. [01:21:52.712 – 01:21:55.892] Well, now does that sound familiar, you know? [01:21:55.892 – 01:21:59.472] Uh, you know, I can quit, I can quit any time I want. [01:21:59.472 – 01:22:01.592] And of course, he died of emphysema. [01:22:01.592 – 01:22:07.672] He, uh, he knew he had a problem later in life, um, obviously. [01:22:07.672 – 01:22:17.731] And, and, uh, and even when he, uh, did his experimentation with, with LSD, you know, he was going through his, his, uh, first, uh, uh,

[01:22:17.732 – 01:22:26.812] bit with it and, and, uh, you know, one minute he says, "Oh, I'm free from, you know, cigarette smoke." And then five minutes later he was asking for a cigarette. [01:22:26.812 – 01:22:33.052] Um, you know, uh, denial is not a river in Egypt. [01:22:33.052 – 01:22:36.392] And, um, it, uh… [01:22:36.392 – 01:22:46.592] You know, Bill, i- in his, in his late days, uh, he would take his oxygen mask off because he needed oxygen [01:22:46.592 – 01:22:50.252] to breathe with his emphysema, and he would take it off and smoke. [01:22:50.252 – 01:22:59.132] You know, and, and I mean, that's a little dangerous to begin with, you know, but obviously an obsession, you know. [01:22:59.132 – 01:23:05.092] And, uh, um, it, yeah, it, it was always his obsession.

[01:23:05.092 – 01:23:13.872] I don't think until much later he realized that it, how much of an obsession it was, but he knew it was, but again, just couldn't quit. [01:23:13.872 – 01:23:16.092] Okay. [01:23:16.092 – 01:23:17.032] Thank you. [01:23:17.032 – 01:23:17.312] Thank you. [01:23:17.312 – 01:23:18.892] Thank you, Vasu in Dallas. [01:23:18.892 – 01:23:23.432] And we're over to Thomas E.- animous Economist. [01:23:23.432 – 01:23:24.952] Uh, go on, Thomas, explain it to me.

[01:23:24.952 – 01:23:27.032] Go ahead. [01:23:27.032 – 01:23:31.452] That's more of a quality I'm seeking than something I actually possess. [01:23:31.452 – 01:23:32.412] Good man. [01:23:32.412 – 01:23:36.492] Um, Jim, Jim, Jim, I know you from the AA History L. group. [01:23:36.492 – 01:23:46.532] Um, and I w- I was going to ask about, you know, the, the, um, uh, that, uh, Bill actually preferred to [01:23:46.532 – 01:23:56.532] be known for his work with, uh, uh, Nyinsen rather than, um, uh, his AA work, or he felt that it was more important, uh, at the end [01:23:56.532 – 01:23:56.972] of his life.

[01:23:56.972 – 01:24:07.002] And then you referenced that it was from, came from Ernest K.'s, uh, Not-God, um, which I read years ago, um, but I don't have my copy of anymore to see where [01:24:07.002 – 01:24:10.022] his, he, he, uh, found that. [01:24:10.022 – 01:24:12.772] If it was in a letter or some sort of statement he made. [01:24:12.772 – 01:24:15.272] I'm sort of s- still surprised. [01:24:15.272 – 01:24:19.332] I, I must have read it, but it was, you know, 25 years ago or something. [01:24:19.332 – 01:24:29.412] Um, the other thing that really doesn't quite have something to do with this, but it's something that I've been looking kind of for a while, is my, my [01:24:29.412 – 01:24:39.592] father, uh, Sam S., when he left the, um, diocese in New York, he went to the diocese in Pittsburgh, um, in the mid,

[01:24:39.592 – 01:24:40.472] uh, '50s. [01:24:40.472 – 01:24:50.592] Um, Bishop P. was the, uh, the bishop at the time, and my father, uh, he actually went to the, um, uh, uh, [01:24:50.592 – 01:24:55.032] Calvary C. there in, uh, Shadyside, um, East- East L. area. [01:24:55.032 – 01:25:05.072] And, um, would have been in the same circles as my father and some of the other diocesan, uh, uh, counselors there [01:25:05.072 – 01:25:05.472] at the time. [01:25:05.472 – 01:25:13.812] My mother was, um, suffering from alcoholism and, uh, you know, this was just something that I've realized only recently- [01:25:14.328 – 01:25:16.868] That these, that their paths certainly crossed.

[01:25:16.868 – 01:25:26.898] And yet even though here we've got Sam S. there, you know, in the same circles, the, the diocese wanted to have her [01:25:26.898 – 01:25:36.967] committed to a mental institution rather than treated as an alcoholic, um, uh, because it was an embarrassment, uh, [01:25:36.968 – 01:25:37.308] to them. [01:25:37.308 – 01:25:39.308] Um, so I was really, uh… [01:25:39.308 – 01:25:41.768] I, I've gotta find out more information about this really. [01:25:41.768 – 01:25:47.798] I don't know if there's any- Yeah, just, uh, you know, you can feel free to send me an email, uh- Sure … [01:25:47.798 – 01:25:48.468] if you like.

[01:25:48.468 – 01:25:50.708] Um, I, I will, uh… [01:25:50.708 – 01:25:54.168] Just real quickly, I'm gonna put this up on the screen. [01:25:54.168 – 01:25:55.148] This is my slide. [01:25:55.148 – 01:25:57.968] I always have all of my sources on my slides. [01:25:57.968 – 01:26:03.048] I actually, uh, uh, uh, deleted a word that was in there. [01:26:03.048 – 01:26:13.317] You can see on the slide, this is the quote from Not-God, and it says, "Further, W.'s enthusiasm for this treatment was so great that he reputedly said," [01:26:13.317 – 01:26:15.068] this is what the text said.

[01:26:15.068 – 01:26:15.817] Okay. [01:26:15.817 – 01:26:26.148] "He reputedly said near at the end of his life that if his name were to go down in history as having made any contribution to mankind, he suspected that it would more likely be for his promotion [01:26:26.148 – 01:26:30.618] of the B3 therapy than for his role in the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:26:30.618 – 01:26:35.528] A S. and surprising statement indeed." Footnote seven, okay? [01:26:35.528 – 01:26:43.008] Footnote seven says, "Reputed to have said," quote, "According to…" That was according to Dr. [01:26:43.008 – 01:26:48.018] Russell S., uh, in interviews of 12 and 13 June, 1977. [01:26:48.018 – 01:26:54.388] W. himself said virtually this, uh, in 1977 at Lake O., Michigan.

[01:26:54.388 – 01:27:00.068] A tape of this presentation is in the writer's possession." The writer being Ernie K.. [01:27:00.068 – 01:27:02.818] But any other- Thanks, Jim … [01:27:02.818 – 01:27:03.668] any other questions? [01:27:03.668 – 01:27:05.208] Yeah, feel, feel free to, uh, uh- Yeah, I was just… [01:27:05.208 – 01:27:15.348] What, what I was, what I was getting at basically is if the, um, if you were aware of any sort of, uh, schism between, uh, [01:27:15.348 – 01:27:26.008] Sam S. and W., uh, that might have, um, uh, made S. sort of, um, shy away from Alcoholics Anonymous, [01:27:26.008 – 01:27:29.157] uh, at, uh, at some period, uh- Um, do- …

[01:27:29.157 – 01:27:34.108] specifically things like the- Yeah, J- Go ahead, Jim. [01:27:34.108 – 01:27:34.688] Go ahead, Jim. [01:27:34.688 – 01:27:36.148] Just real, just real quickly. [01:27:36.148 – 01:27:46.808] Um, uh, they, whether it was Sam that, uh, kind of had a problem with Bill or one of his assistants, but there were some [01:27:46.808 – 01:27:48.108] bad feelings for a while. [01:27:48.108 – 01:27:49.648] They kind of separated. [01:27:49.648 – 01:27:56.888] But I'm gonna leave this for an after-the-meeting discussion with Patrick O'Dee, who has lots of the details on that.

[01:27:56.888 – 01:28:07.148] He did a super, super, uh, uh, presentation on Tuesday on recovery speakers, uh, that you can get the recording of, uh, about Sam [01:28:07.148 – 01:28:09.288] and, uh, and, and, and Bill. [01:28:09.288 – 01:28:13.768] But, uh, that's, uh, it's a little off topic, so I'll, uh- Good man … [01:28:13.768 – 01:28:15.248] um, we'll leave that for after the meeting. [01:28:15.248 – 01:28:18.328] Thank you, Jim, and thank you Thomas for those questions. [01:28:18.328 – 01:28:22.127] We're going over to, uh, Miami, or down should I say, over Florida. [01:28:22.127 – 01:28:23.328] Hello, Joel.

[01:28:23.328 – 01:28:26.828] I'm an alcoholic and my problem is Joel. [01:28:26.828 – 01:28:31.228] Wow, thank you so much Jim for that presentation. [01:28:31.228 – 01:28:33.148] Uh, I really loved it. [01:28:33.148 – 01:28:43.148] Um, I, my, my question is could we get a copy, either through David or through yourself, of that closing, uh, statement by Bill [01:28:43.148 – 01:28:43.428] W? [01:28:43.428 – 01:28:48.428] I can, I can tell you that after listening to that, my reaction was wonderful. [01:28:48.428 – 01:28:56.908] My reaction was Bill W. achieved a self-awareness level that I, that is almost remarkable with all this stuff.

[01:28:56.908 – 01:29:00.368] That, that, that he could make a statement about himself like that. [01:29:00.368 – 01:29:07.148] I hope someday that I can write something as accurate about me as Bill W. just wrote about himself. [01:29:07.148 – 01:29:10.208] I think that's the most amazing statement I've ever had. [01:29:10.208 – 01:29:13.288] I really, really would love to have a copy of that. [01:29:13.288 – 01:29:14.088] Wow. [01:29:14.088 – 01:29:17.068] And, and I hope you include the date on that when you send it to me. [01:29:17.068 – 01:29:18.848] Oh, j- you- You can send it to all of us.

[01:29:18.848 – 01:29:19.778] Thank you, Joel. [01:29:19.778 – 01:29:21.888] Jim, can you read it again just after what Joel has said? [01:29:21.888 – 01:29:23.388] It's got me more intrigued to read it again. [01:29:23.388 – 01:29:23.958] Jim, can you do that please? [01:29:23.958 – 01:29:24.548] A- absolutely. [01:29:24.548 – 01:29:26.308] And, and I sent you a link. [01:29:26.308 – 01:29:28.528] You might want to put up- Oh, yeah, I will do, Jim.

[01:29:28.528 – 01:29:29.228] Yeah, got it … [01:29:29.228 – 01:29:29.828] the link here. [01:29:29.828 – 01:29:30.137] But I, I… [01:29:30.137 – 01:29:31.288] Let me go to it. [01:29:31.288 – 01:29:31.828] Uh- Yeah. [01:29:31.828 – 01:29:34.648] Just after what Joel has said, it's got me more intrigued. [01:29:34.648 – 01:29:45.388] This was, uh, someone in, uh, in, uh, Chicago wrote, uh, wrote a letter to Bill taking his inventory.

[01:29:45.388 – 01:29:48.908] And, um, here I am. [01:29:48.908 – 01:29:50.068] Why am I not… [01:29:50.068 – 01:29:50.748] Oh, there. [01:29:50.748 – 01:29:50.858] Mm-hmm. [01:29:50.858 – 01:29:52.268] There we are. [01:29:52.268 – 01:29:53.768] Here, I'm getting it. [01:29:53.768 – 01:29:55.288] Um, here we go.

[01:29:55.288 – 01:30:02.488] This was a reply to, uh, the 1960 letter mailed to him from a group in Chicago taking his inventory. [01:30:02.488 – 01:30:12.668] Actually, it was a person, um, uh, "Dear B., That you seem disillusioned with me personally may be a new and painful experience for you, [01:30:12.668 – 01:30:14.968] but many members have had that experience with me. [01:30:14.968 – 01:30:24.988] Most of their pain has been caused not only by my several shortcomings, but by their own insistence on placing me, a drunk trying to get along with other folks, [01:30:24.988 – 01:30:27.128] upon a completely illusory pedestal. [01:30:27.128 – 01:30:31.128] A station which no fallible person could possibly occupy. [01:30:31.128 – 01:30:33.598] I'm sure that you will understand that I have made-

[01:30:33.714 – 01:30:37.564] never held myself out to anybody as either a saint or a superman. [01:30:37.564 – 01:30:45.724] I have repeatedly and truthfully said that AA is full of people who have made more spiritual progress than I ever have or can make. [01:30:45.724 – 01:30:55.504] That in some areas of living I have made some decided gains, but in others I seem to have stood still, and in still other ways I may have gone backwards. [01:30:55.504 – 01:31:03.004] I'm sorry that you are disillusioned with me, but I am happy that even I have found a life here. [01:31:03.004 – 01:31:04.384] Oh, great job. [01:31:04.384 – 01:31:04.864] Thank you. [01:31:04.864 – 01:31:07.164] Do you wanna finish up commenting on that, Jim, or should we move on?

[01:31:07.164 – 01:31:10.404] No, um, uh, the, uh… [01:31:10.404 – 01:31:17.224] Actually there are a couple, uh, some of them have more information than, than is needed on, but if you just… [01:31:17.224 – 01:31:24.824] If you Google, uh, Bill W., uh, Pedestal L., uh, you'll, uh, you, you'll get it. [01:31:24.824 – 01:31:25.064] And- Yeah. [01:31:25.064 – 01:31:27.003] I put the link in the chat that you sent me. [01:31:27.003 – 01:31:27.574] It's, it's in the chat. [01:31:27.574 – 01:31:28.004] Oh, okay.

[01:31:28.004 – 01:31:28.364] Yeah. [01:31:28.364 – 01:31:28.784] All right. [01:31:28.784 – 01:31:31.664] That, that's one of the places that- Joel, I'll give you… [01:31:31.664 – 01:31:35.164] Do, do you wanna come back, Joel, or should we move on to Lynn in California? [01:31:35.164 – 01:31:35.594] No. [01:31:35.594 – 01:31:35.804] Joel? [01:31:35.804 – 01:31:37.034] I'm, I, I'm done.

[01:31:37.034 – 01:31:38.054] Thank you very much. [01:31:38.054 – 01:31:38.814] Again- Thanks, Joel … [01:31:38.814 – 01:31:41.324] and by the way, David, David, thank you for all your work. [01:31:41.324 – 01:31:44.424] This is, this is just a magnificent contribution to my life. [01:31:44.424 – 01:31:45.344] Thank you. [01:31:45.344 – 01:31:46.784] Thank you, Joel. [01:31:46.784 – 01:31:47.324] Appreciate it.

[01:31:47.324 – 01:31:49.064] Lynn in California. [01:31:49.064 – 01:31:50.504] Hey. [01:31:50.504 – 01:31:50.964] Okay. [01:31:50.964 – 01:31:52.104] Hey. [01:31:52.104 – 01:31:53.524] Lynn, Lynn, alcoholic. [01:31:53.524 – 01:31:53.944] Hi, Lynn. [01:31:53.944 – 01:31:54.404] Thanks.

[01:31:54.404 – 01:31:56.044] Hey, hey, David. [01:31:56.044 – 01:31:58.124] Um, thanks, Jim. [01:31:58.124 – 01:31:59.804] Just loved it as well. [01:31:59.804 – 01:32:05.164] And you know, uh, boy, if that letter isn't a demonstration of humility, right? [01:32:05.164 – 01:32:07.203] God, that was so good. [01:32:07.203 – 01:32:09.804] Um, just a man among men. [01:32:09.804 – 01:32:19.924] I, I, I just, uh, I, I'm, I was just reminded when you were talking the whole time, and that letter sort of wrapped it up, again and again I was like,

[01:32:19.924 – 01:32:30.304] you know, I knew, I knew a little about the niacin, the LSD, the spook thing, but to hear his struggles kind of with the traditions and [01:32:30.304 – 01:32:32.044] him kind of nudging in there. [01:32:32.044 – 01:32:34.224] Uh, so two things. [01:32:34.224 – 01:32:42.944] One was that really set me back a little bit, and then at the same time I thought, "Wow, uh, he's just like me. [01:32:42.944 – 01:32:44.104] He's just like us. [01:32:44.104 – 01:32:46.164] He's just like, you know, he has… [01:32:46.164 – 01:32:47.184] He's not perfect.

[01:32:47.184 – 01:32:53.764] He didn't like…" And at the same time, I had this appreciation for the fact that he and Dr. [01:32:53.764 – 01:32:58.744] Bob tried to let go of the, of the strings and set the traditions. [01:32:58.744 – 01:33:06.664] And I wonder if he had this foresight that not only did we all need it, but maybe even he needed those traditions. [01:33:06.664 – 01:33:07.254] And I… [01:33:07.254 – 01:33:10.914] You know, I'm sure he did, but, you know, I wonder if he saw himself. [01:33:10.914 – 01:33:11.304] I don't know. [01:33:11.304 – 01:33:12.104] But the…

[01:33:12.104 – 01:33:13.784] But I, I just love that. [01:33:13.784 – 01:33:20.144] I, I just love knowing he's a man like me, and so therefore I don't have to aspire to perfection. [01:33:20.144 – 01:33:20.834] Okay. [01:33:20.834 – 01:33:23.084] Um, just principles. [01:33:23.084 – 01:33:24.064] One question. [01:33:24.064 – 01:33:24.454] Mm-hmm. [01:33:24.454 – 01:33:28.424] Uh, any writings by David H.?

[01:33:28.424 – 01:33:29.004] I like… [01:33:29.004 – 01:33:30.864] I've written a, read a book or two of his. [01:33:30.864 – 01:33:39.104] About either Bill, the spiritual principles of AA, or anything like that. [01:33:39.104 – 01:33:42.484] Did he ever write any papers or letters or anything like that? [01:33:42.484 – 01:33:43.664] Hi, David. [01:33:43.664 – 01:33:45.104] Well, the, uh… [01:33:45.104 – 01:33:55.124] You know that slide that, uh, that, that I showed, uh, had the list of some of his books that he had written, and, uh, I, I think he

[01:33:55.124 – 01:33:57.204] did write something about AA. [01:33:57.204 – 01:34:04.864] Uh, send me an email and I'll, uh, uh, uh, I'll, I'll send you the, the information that I have on that. [01:34:04.864 – 01:34:06.584] Thank you. [01:34:06.584 – 01:34:07.914] Thank you, Lynn. [01:34:07.914 – 01:34:08.144] My pleasure. [01:34:08.144 – 01:34:10.364] And we're going to Wayne in Trinidad. [01:34:10.364 – 01:34:13.904] Wow, we've gone Florida, California, back over down to Trinidad.

[01:34:13.904 – 01:34:16.624] Hello, Wayne. [01:34:16.624 – 01:34:17.524] Hi. [01:34:17.524 – 01:34:18.404] Good evening, everyone. [01:34:18.404 – 01:34:20.044] Wayne, alcoholic from Trinidad. [01:34:20.044 – 01:34:25.864] I, I am still in awe trying to digest what Jim put forward here for me. [01:34:25.864 – 01:34:31.414] Um, I've read only AA literature, but this is something new for me, and I am just amazed. [01:34:31.414 – 01:34:32.324] I'm just in awe.

[01:34:32.324 – 01:34:35.184] And thank you very much, David, for putting all this. [01:34:35.184 – 01:34:35.944] Thank you, Jim. [01:34:35.944 – 01:34:37.264] Thank you very, very much. [01:34:37.264 – 01:34:38.324] But you said… [01:34:38.324 – 01:34:40.984] Now, I mean, the parts of the tradition was amazing. [01:34:40.984 – 01:34:44.444] I mean, Bill wrote this and he couldn't live up to some of the tradition. [01:34:44.444 – 01:34:54.484] A- anyway, um, you mentioned during your presentation about a group of, a group or someone writing AA a letter saying that AA

[01:34:54.484 – 01:34:55.224] was a cult. [01:34:55.224 – 01:34:58.684] Um, could you give me a little more information on that, please? [01:34:58.684 – 01:35:00.204] The, uh… [01:35:00.204 – 01:35:09.344] Th- that was a, um, a, an article that a guy by the name of Kane, uh, wrote in, uh… [01:35:09.344 – 01:35:12.584] Let me, let me get that, uh, exactly. [01:35:12.584 – 01:35:23.144] Um, uh, Arthur K. in 1963 in Harper's Magazine, uh, wrote, uh, wrote the article, [01:35:23.144 – 01:35:23.504] uh…

[01:35:23.504 – 01:35:30.884] There it is, uh, called c- uh, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure? [01:35:30.884 – 01:35:33.344] And, uh- Mm. [01:35:33.344 – 01:35:43.364] I, I think if I, I remember right, I think it's, I, I think it's available on, um, on the internet, uh, or, or you can, uh, send me [01:35:43.364 – 01:35:46.174] an email and I'll, uh, uh, get you the article. [01:35:46.174 – 01:35:53.224] But it, the article was a criticism of, you know, uh, of AA, saying that, uh, we're a bunch of pol- [01:35:53.452 – 01:35:56.772] us intolerant, dogmatic, anti-science people. [01:35:56.772 – 01:36:00.532] Now, how could anybody think anything like that of us?

[01:36:00.532 – 01:36:03.092] Thank you very much, Jim. [01:36:03.092 – 01:36:03.242] That's interesting. [01:36:03.242 – 01:36:04.132] Thank you very much. [01:36:04.132 – 01:36:05.852] David, um- My pleasure … [01:36:05.852 – 01:36:08.462] David, sorry to, uh, to do this, but- Go ahead … [01:36:08.462 – 01:36:13.972] I tried to access the recording from the ones on the 25th of February, but I don't know- Yeah … [01:36:13.972 – 01:36:14.232] where to go.

[01:36:14.232 – 01:36:19.712] I've tried all the sites, but I've not got the- Yeah, I, there's a bit of a problem at the moment with recoverytapers.com. [01:36:19.712 – 01:36:22.392] We're still waiting for them to go back up, but we have the recordings. [01:36:22.392 – 01:36:25.712] I have been sending them to Mike K. in Recovery Speakers. [01:36:25.712 – 01:36:31.212] I've just sent him a message asking him what page that's on in recoveryumspeakers.com. [01:36:31.212 – 01:36:33.672] So if he gets back to me before the meeting, I will post it. [01:36:33.672 – 01:36:34.882] Thank you very much. [01:36:34.882 – 01:36:35.792] 'Cause I was looking for it.

[01:36:35.792 – 01:36:38.612] Some people have been asking me, and I have looked at, for it on Recovery. [01:36:38.612 – 01:36:43.852] But if Camberwell, Friday night I put in, if you put in something like that, Jim W., something should come up. [01:36:43.852 – 01:36:46.692] But if not, I will ask Mike to give me a more specific. [01:36:46.692 – 01:36:48.892] But hopefully Recovery… [01:36:48.892 – 01:36:50.752] Is anyone here from recoverytapers.com? [01:36:50.752 – 01:36:53.212] I, Paula, did you, are you still here, Paula? [01:36:53.212 – 01:36:56.672] Uh, do you know anything about Recovery T.- Tapers?

[01:36:56.672 – 01:36:56.872] No. [01:36:56.872 – 01:36:59.132] Good night, Jim. [01:36:59.132 – 01:36:59.892] Thanks, David. [01:36:59.892 – 01:37:00.292] Good night. [01:37:00.292 – 01:37:01.472] Good night, Francie. [01:37:01.472 – 01:37:02.352] God bless you. [01:37:02.352 – 01:37:02.782] Thank you.

[01:37:02.782 – 01:37:02.902] My pleasure. [01:37:02.902 – 01:37:05.072] And that's all I have at the moment waiting for you. [01:37:05.072 – 01:37:07.572] But Lars wanted to know something about, he missed something about the sex. [01:37:07.572 – 01:37:08.212] Is that right, Lars? [01:37:08.212 – 01:37:09.112] What's going on there, Lars? [01:37:09.112 – 01:37:11.012] You sent me a question, Lars? [01:37:11.012 – 01:37:14.211] Lars A..

[01:37:14.211 – 01:37:14.912] Hi, Lars. [01:37:14.912 – 01:37:17.472] From Bedford Hills, New York. [01:37:17.472 – 01:37:18.372] New York, yeah. [01:37:18.372 – 01:37:21.122] Well, and no, no, actually, I was just- … [01:37:21.122 – 01:37:22.252] I was late to the meeting. [01:37:22.252 – 01:37:23.852] Uh, Jim, thanks so much. [01:37:23.852 – 01:37:29.072] Uh, yeah, I was thinking, God, I could have been in those seances and those LSD trips.

[01:37:29.072 – 01:37:31.692] I almost made it, but no, excuse me. [01:37:31.692 – 01:37:36.152] But, um, I was, lived next to him, to Wils- to W.. [01:37:36.152 – 01:37:42.692] But, um, no, what I was at, I was late to the m- to, to the, uh, meeting today, and I was wondering, did you do the sex discussion? [01:37:42.692 – 01:37:43.992] Did I miss that? [01:37:43.992 – 01:37:45.992] That's what I was asking you. [01:37:45.992 – 01:37:46.232] Yeah. [01:37:46.232 – 01:37:46.812] I know, Lars.

[01:37:46.812 – 01:37:47.592] You missed it. [01:37:47.592 – 01:37:47.912] I've only tried to be funny. [01:37:47.912 – 01:37:48.832] I'm trying to do funny. [01:37:48.832 – 01:37:49.932] I'm trying to do humor, Lars. [01:37:49.932 – 01:37:50.492] Oh, you're trying to be funny. [01:37:50.492 – 01:37:51.152] I'm trying to be funny. [01:37:51.152 – 01:37:51.992] You like to summarize.

[01:37:51.992 – 01:37:53.072] I'm a funny guy. [01:37:53.072 – 01:37:53.422] I'm a funny guy. [01:37:53.422 – 01:37:55.052] I got here for the niacin. [01:37:55.052 – 01:37:55.562] Why can't I tell you? [01:37:55.562 – 01:37:56.612] I was here for the niacin. [01:37:56.612 – 01:37:57.792] I missed the sex part. [01:37:57.792 – 01:38:00.872] If I'm You can't be a funny guy?

[01:38:00.872 – 01:38:03.111] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:38:03.111 – 01:38:07.042] I was interested about that. [01:38:07.042 – 01:38:09.112] Jim, do you wanna mention something about the relationship with Miss H. Wynn or something? [01:38:09.112 – 01:38:11.671] Did you, did you want to mention that, Jim, on that? [01:38:11.671 – 01:38:13.292] Me? [01:38:13.292 – 01:38:13.952] Yeah. [01:38:13.952 – 01:38:14.022] No.

[01:38:14.022 – 01:38:16.412] Did you want to mention what you discussed tonight on, on the… [01:38:16.412 – 01:38:17.472] Did you want to mention that? [01:38:17.472 – 01:38:18.912] No. [01:38:18.912 – 01:38:20.692] Uh, not again. [01:38:20.692 – 01:38:21.992] Okay. [01:38:21.992 – 01:38:23.572] Okay. [01:38:23.572 – 01:38:25.782] Lars, are, are you okay with that?

[01:38:25.782 – 01:38:27.912] Well, it's… [01:38:27.912 – 01:38:29.361] I have to be. [01:38:29.361 – 01:38:30.552] It's, it's in the recording. [01:38:30.552 – 01:38:30.732] Right. [01:38:30.732 – 01:38:33.672] It's in the recording. [01:38:33.672 – 01:38:34.132] Hopefully. [01:38:34.132 – 01:38:35.932] Well, it's after 10:00 over here anyway.

[01:38:35.932 – 01:38:41.012] We're after the watershed, so we can't be pl- does anyone else have a question for Mr. [01:38:41.012 – 01:38:48.112] W. while we're here, or shall we close up the meeting and get into more controversial subjects at the meeting, in the meeting, and after the meeting? [01:38:48.112 – 01:38:48.982] Mary D. [01:38:48.982 – 01:38:50.072] from Wisconsin. [01:38:50.072 – 01:38:50.732] Hello, Mary D. [01:38:50.732 – 01:38:53.112] Hi. [01:38:53.112 – 01:38:54.232] Hi.

[01:38:54.232 – 01:38:56.172] I, I just have one question. [01:38:56.172 – 01:38:56.562] Good. [01:38:56.562 – 01:39:01.652] Um, I, so I've been in AA like 47 years. [01:39:01.652 – 01:39:02.652] Congratulations. [01:39:02.652 – 01:39:04.352] Thank you. [01:39:04.352 – 01:39:06.232] Um, I never heard this stuff. [01:39:06.232 – 01:39:08.272] How come I never heard this stuff?

[01:39:08.272 – 01:39:09.572] Oh, well done, Mary. [01:39:09.572 – 01:39:15.352] Was this on purpose or, or just, it just, that's the way it went, that people weren't digging? [01:39:15.352 – 01:39:16.712] You know? [01:39:16.712 – 01:39:18.171] That, that's my question. [01:39:18.171 – 01:39:26.932] This, this information has been around and in these books that I quoted tonight for many years. [01:39:26.932 – 01:39:30.822] And, uh- Jim, Jim, can you mention the code of silence that you mentioned, co-conspirator? [01:39:30.822 – 01:39:33.052] You t- mentioned something tonight about someone mentioned.

[01:39:33.052 – 01:39:33.812] Yeah. [01:39:33.812 – 01:39:37.792] It, it's just, uh, people in AA talk about it. [01:39:37.792 – 01:39:40.032] I mean, we don't talk about sex. [01:39:40.032 – 01:39:43.712] We don't talk about, you know, lots of things in AA. [01:39:43.712 – 01:39:51.292] And, uh, but these books have been available, uh, and this, uh, information and res- there's nothing new here. [01:39:51.292 – 01:39:52.772] There's nothing new. [01:39:52.772 – 01:39:59.352] These books were written in the, uh, in the '80s, uh, and, uh, most of them, I think.

[01:39:59.352 – 01:40:03.932] And, uh, the information has been around for a long time. [01:40:03.932 – 01:40:14.152] But it's just not something that, uh, um, that, that a lot of people want known, and [01:40:14.152 – 01:40:15.892] so they don't spread the information. [01:40:15.892 – 01:40:17.332] Uh- What about Hardigan? [01:40:17.332 – 01:40:19.452] You said something about Bill, uh, Francis H.. [01:40:19.452 – 01:40:22.032] Did you say he was a co-conspirator in the code of silence? [01:40:22.032 – 01:40:23.721] Did I, did I remember you saying that?

[01:40:23.721 – 01:40:28.072] Uh, yeah. [01:40:28.072 – 01:40:36.772] His was, uh, it, Pass It On and, uh, Hardigan or, uh, Thompson's book are, are pretty sanitized versions. [01:40:36.772 – 01:40:44.952] Uh, and they were, yeah, i- in the, uh, in the writing that I was quoting from Bob K.- Yes … [01:40:44.952 – 01:40:47.512] uh, co-conspirators in the code of silence. [01:40:47.512 – 01:40:55.392] Um, and a lot of these things are just, uh, you know, you just don't talk about these things. [01:40:55.392 – 01:40:57.392] I mean, and, uh- Different times, yeah. [01:40:57.392 – 01:40:58.172] Different times …

[01:40:58.172 – 01:41:00.932] um, different, different times. [01:41:00.932 – 01:41:06.622] But, but, you know, yeah, they were different times, and they, to a certain extent, different morays. [01:41:06.622 – 01:41:12.752] But let me tell you, there are people in AA, this is a big place. [01:41:13.008 – 01:41:14.198] We're all over the world. [01:41:14.198 – 01:41:14.538] Mm-hmm. [01:41:14.538 – 01:41:15.848] And we got people with all… [01:41:15.848 – 01:41:17.568] That doing all kinds of things.

[01:41:17.568 – 01:41:26.088] And, uh, you know, one of the first reasons why we broke away from the Oxford Group was because the Oxford Group said you can't commit adultery. [01:41:26.088 – 01:41:36.748] Well, I'm sorry, but, uh, AA would certainly lose a lot of people if you told every newcomer that you had to be, uh, absolutely pure, you [01:41:36.748 – 01:41:37.068] know? [01:41:37.068 – 01:41:40.788] And, uh, and those were the absolutes of the Oxford Group. [01:41:40.788 – 01:41:47.758] And, uh, you know, they, they, uh, again, uh, uh, who, who was- Mm-hmm … [01:41:47.758 – 01:41:53.208] who were we talking about with yesterday, I guess we were talking about Bill W. and pragmatism. [01:41:53.208 – 01:41:53.598] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[01:41:53.598 – 01:41:54.248] You know? [01:41:54.248 – 01:41:55.368] William J., yep. [01:41:55.368 – 01:41:55.848] You know? [01:41:55.848 – 01:42:03.108] A- a- and if it doesn't work, we learned about what works by what didn't work, you know? [01:42:03.108 – 01:42:07.468] I, I think it was, you know, Edison or somebody that said, "I haven't failed. [01:42:07.468 – 01:42:17.588] I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work." During the flying blind period, and from then until now, we keep trying things and they don't [01:42:17.588 – 01:42:27.928] work, and so we say, "Oh, well, maybe I will go to meetings," or, "Maybe I will do the steps," or, "Maybe I," you know, after I tried everything else, when all else fails, follow the directions.

[01:42:27.928 – 01:42:29.948] And, uh, but we just… [01:42:29.948 – 01:42:32.968] How did I get off on that tangent? [01:42:32.968 – 01:42:33.868] It's a good tangent. [01:42:33.868 – 01:42:35.028] Well- But I'm enjoying the tangent. [01:42:35.028 – 01:42:35.607] Go for it. [01:42:35.607 – 01:42:37.368] I think everyone else is enjoying it. [01:42:37.368 – 01:42:41.118] Do you wanna keep going down that road, or should we go back over to Thomas and see?

[01:42:41.118 – 01:42:41.658] No, no, no. [01:42:41.658 – 01:42:43.187] Then we got some other questions, so. [01:42:43.187 – 01:42:43.448] Okay. [01:42:43.448 – 01:42:45.448] Thomas, can you keep it as brief as possible, please? [01:42:45.448 – 01:42:46.068] I appreciate it. [01:42:46.068 – 01:42:46.738] Sure. [01:42:46.738 – 01:42:47.248] All you, Thomas.

[01:42:47.248 – 01:42:57.608] Um, so I guess, you know, this has kind of stirred in my, my thought process here, that maybe, um, with the effects of, uh, things like the spiritualism, [01:42:57.608 – 01:43:02.508] uh, uh, Ed D.'s response to that, and specifically C. [01:43:02.508 – 01:43:02.688] S. [01:43:02.688 – 01:43:13.008] Lewis' response to that, um, big Anglican connection there, um, would have had an effect on, uh, AA's relation, [01:43:13.008 – 01:43:16.888] uh, and maybe not just the spiritualism thing, but, but possibly other things. [01:43:16.888 – 01:43:21.248] But I'm thinking that in particular because of the response of, um, someone like C. [01:43:21.248 – 01:43:21.407] S.

[01:43:21.407 – 01:43:23.308] Lewis, uh- Mm-hmm … [01:43:23.308 – 01:43:32.988] a negative effect on AA's relationship with, um, uh, religion spec- specifically, you know, Angl- Anglican and, uh- Yep … [01:43:32.988 – 01:43:33.477] and Catholic. [01:43:33.477 – 01:43:35.328] I, you know, I, I, I don't know about that. [01:43:35.328 – 01:43:38.238] All I know is that Bill W. didn't listen to anybody. [01:43:38.238 – 01:43:42.568] When he got his, his mind set, he didn't listen to C. [01:43:42.568 – 01:43:42.798] S.

[01:43:42.798 – 01:43:43.328] Lewis. [01:43:43.328 – 01:43:46.108] You know, he didn't care what anybody said. [01:43:46.108 – 01:43:53.688] He was gonna go do what he thought, uh, uh, was, uh, w- was, was the right thing to do. [01:43:53.688 – 01:43:57.008] And, um, the, whether C. [01:43:57.008 – 01:43:57.218] S. [01:43:57.218 – 01:44:06.007] Lewis or Father D., uh, we get into a little bit more about his, uh, uh, religious ideas, re- ideas about religion. [01:44:06.007 – 01:44:16.048] And, uh, because, you know, when it came to religion, he, he, uh, he, he always thought, he said, "I just, the one thing I can't accept is, is that they,

[01:44:16.048 – 01:44:20.248] they, they all are just so confounded right." You know? [01:44:20.248 – 01:44:30.248] And, uh, so he didn't pay a whole lot of attention to anybody, you know, when he, uh, got off on his tangents, um, AA [01:44:30.248 – 01:44:31.488] traditions, you know? [01:44:31.488 – 01:44:33.788] And, you know, they had to rein him in. [01:44:33.788 – 01:44:41.048] And, uh, so anyway, like I say, send me, send me an email if you have some other- Uh, and Thomas, stay around at the end. [01:44:41.048 – 01:44:43.757] We might, we might have a little d- um, meeting after the meeting. [01:44:43.757 – 01:44:43.818] Yeah.

[01:44:43.818 – 01:44:44.148] Charlie. [01:44:44.148 – 01:44:45.518] I'm gonna go to Laura R. [01:44:45.518 – 01:44:46.648] in, I think VT. [01:44:46.648 – 01:44:47.488] Is that Vermont? [01:44:47.488 – 01:44:48.688] Is, um, what is that? [01:44:48.688 – 01:44:49.108] VT? [01:44:49.108 – 01:44:49.507] Vermont.

[01:44:49.507 – 01:44:49.768] Yes. [01:44:49.768 – 01:44:50.468] Yes, that's Vermont. [01:44:50.468 – 01:44:51.728] Hello b- hello, Laura. [01:44:51.728 – 01:44:51.968] Yeah. [01:44:51.968 – 01:44:53.268] I know. [01:44:53.268 – 01:44:58.888] My name is Laura and I'm an alcoholic, and 1968 is my, uh, sober, uh, year. [01:44:58.888 – 01:44:59.318] Congratulations.

[01:44:59.318 – 01:44:59.348] Congratulations. [01:44:59.348 – 01:45:00.028] Fantastic. [01:45:00.028 – 01:45:10.668] It was really interesting to me how when I came in, I heard all this stuff about, uh, niacin and LSD [01:45:10.668 – 01:45:17.708] and, uh, free sex and all this stuff going on, which was, you know, outside material. [01:45:17.708 – 01:45:28.328] But I was also told in the program, "Don't think about having any relationships for a year when you come into the program." [01:45:28.328 – 01:45:38.388] And I told my AA friend, who had been around for many years, and she said, "You know, if I had lived by that, I would never have stayed sober." In other words, [01:45:38.388 – 01:45:47.808] she had an ideal, like, way of, like Bill's, you know, just i- if it, if it's gonna work, it's gonna work, and you're gonna stay sober no matter what.

[01:45:47.808 – 01:45:55.248] And so I took over her attitude, and I had relationships before I was a year res- year sober. [01:45:55.248 – 01:45:59.328] And it was important that I did, because I learned from those experiences. [01:45:59.328 – 01:46:04.928] And I also learned I didn't have to get, pick up a twinkle, you know? [01:46:04.928 – 01:46:10.508] That if it, if it didn't work, which it didn't, um, I could move on to something else. [01:46:10.508 – 01:46:10.958] Mm-hmm. [01:46:10.958 – 01:46:21.527] And the interesting thing is that all this uproar that came in the '60s, there was so much going on, and I [01:46:21.588 – 01:46:29.568] was, like, baffled with all these new ideas and all this stuff that was going on.

[01:46:29.568 – 01:46:32.338] And, uh, I too played with- [01:46:32.914 – 01:46:37.884] the, with the idea of getting niacin and all that because, like, it was really, uh, you know. [01:46:37.884 – 01:46:48.044] And it's interesting that today with COVID, it's encouraged, was encouraged while we were going through it, to take vitamin B, [01:46:48.044 – 01:46:56.944] D3 because it helps you, uh, attain what you need in your body to, you know, if you're isolated or whatever it is. [01:46:56.944 – 01:47:02.104] And so I got into that, and, um, very seriously. [01:47:02.104 – 01:47:06.644] And, but it's all relative. [01:47:06.644 – 01:47:16.684] It's all really coming down to we can do things in sobriety and try things out, and if they work, we can stay with it.

[01:47:16.684 – 01:47:18.944] If they don't work, we can change our minds. [01:47:18.944 – 01:47:22.204] And the main thing is don't pick up the first drink. [01:47:22.204 – 01:47:23.164] So thank you. [01:47:23.164 – 01:47:24.174] Yes. [01:47:24.174 – 01:47:24.474] Thank you. [01:47:24.474 – 01:47:24.944] Thank you, Laura. [01:47:24.944 – 01:47:26.164] Thank you, Laura.

[01:47:26.164 – 01:47:27.024] And we got Bob. [01:47:27.024 – 01:47:29.744] Hello, Bob, from key players in AA history. [01:47:29.744 – 01:47:30.784] Good to have you here, Bob. [01:47:30.784 – 01:47:36.144] Yeah, I just want to try again. [01:47:36.144 – 01:47:37.244] Can you hear me this time? [01:47:37.244 – 01:47:38.284] Bob, can, can, can I suggest you… [01:47:38.284 – 01:47:40.474] 'Cause I know, terrible to say, can you turn off your video?

[01:47:40.474 – 01:47:44.784] I know we, it's not, not that we don't want to see you, but you, you might have a better frequency. [01:47:44.784 – 01:47:47.104] Can, can you try now, Bob? [01:47:47.104 – 01:47:49.764] Yeah. [01:47:49.764 – 01:47:52.644] We, go ahead, Bob. [01:47:52.644 – 01:47:53.354] Try it. [01:47:53.354 – 01:47:53.824] Try, yeah. [01:47:53.824 – 01:47:56.524] I'll give it a try.

[01:47:56.524 – 01:47:59.084] Yeah. [01:47:59.084 – 01:48:00.664] Are you hearing me now or no? [01:48:00.664 – 01:48:01.904] Not re- not really, Bob. [01:48:01.904 – 01:48:01.914] No? [01:48:01.914 – 01:48:04.004] It's not doing you, it's not doing you justice. [01:48:04.004 – 01:48:04.034] Yeah. [01:48:04.034 – 01:48:05.384] It's not doing you- Yeah, I'm trying.

[01:48:05.384 – 01:48:07.244] I'm talking, but you're not hearing me. [01:48:07.244 – 01:48:12.564] Well, we can hear you, but it's just every other word- It's bad internet today, so sorry … [01:48:12.564 – 01:48:14.044] try, we'll try again- Yeah, no, understood. [01:48:14.044 – 01:48:14.204] So. [01:48:14.204 – 01:48:18.664] No, no, we will, we will try again after the meeting, uh, if that's, if you want to stick around, Bob. [01:48:18.664 – 01:48:18.964] Okay. [01:48:18.964 – 01:48:19.304] Yeah.

[01:48:19.304 – 01:48:20.004] You bet. [01:48:20.004 – 01:48:20.884] Great to have you here, though. [01:48:20.884 – 01:48:22.314] Key players in AA history. [01:48:22.314 – 01:48:22.414] Thank you, man. [01:48:22.414 – 01:48:26.944] This man done t- tons of work, influenced Jim W. a lot, who's influencing me quite a lot. [01:48:26.944 – 01:48:27.784] Anna M. [01:48:27.784 – 01:48:28.364] Hello, Anna.

[01:48:28.364 – 01:48:29.124] Hello, Anna. [01:48:29.124 – 01:48:31.524] We don't know where you are, but can you tell us where you're coming in from? [01:48:31.524 – 01:48:32.264] Hey. [01:48:32.264 – 01:48:33.424] Oh, uh, New York. [01:48:33.424 – 01:48:34.314] Thank you for- New York … [01:48:34.314 – 01:48:36.864] David for doing this, and thank you, Jim. [01:48:36.864 – 01:48:40.884] Um, I just want to first say thank you very much for your presentation.

[01:48:40.884 – 01:48:44.704] Um, I, too, did not take it in any way offensive. [01:48:44.704 – 01:48:49.724] I thought that it was incredibly respectful, uh, and insightful. [01:48:49.724 – 01:48:51.264] And so I appreciate that. [01:48:51.264 – 01:49:01.464] One of the things that, um, I can say that annoys me is not so much, uh, the information that's being provided, but when information is not given, uh, when it's almost [01:49:01.464 – 01:49:02.504] hidden- Mm-hmm … [01:49:02.504 – 01:49:03.364] uh, and kept. [01:49:03.364 – 01:49:05.384] It's sort of like denying history.

[01:49:05.384 – 01:49:10.824] Uh, and I'm not a proponent of denying history, no matter what it looks like. [01:49:10.824 – 01:49:11.864] Um- Yeah … [01:49:11.864 – 01:49:21.724] my question to you, because I've heard more than one presentation about Bill, uh, in, in di- various aspects, including some of what you've covered tonight. [01:49:21.724 – 01:49:26.054] I, you know, I've started feeling a little bit like I'm hearing something. [01:49:26.054 – 01:49:36.064] And what I'm hearing, and obviously you can kind of correct me if I'm wrong, but that perhaps partly Bill was starting to become [01:49:36.064 – 01:49:46.124] or had become towards the end or during this process of his discovering or journey with different things, uh, that maybe partly he was becoming [01:49:46.124 – 01:49:56.144] disenchanted with where AA was going in some ways, and partly because he recognized for himself that AA

[01:49:56.144 – 01:49:57.984] couldn't do everything for him. [01:49:57.984 – 01:50:01.524] Do you, do you, um, have any thoughts on that? [01:50:01.524 – 01:50:02.614] Thank you, Anna. [01:50:02.614 – 01:50:10.484] Well, I, I, I don't think that, uh, uh, Bill was disenchanted with, uh, with AA at all. [01:50:10.484 – 01:50:15.844] I do think he realized that, uh, you know, there were other things, like his depression. [01:50:15.844 – 01:50:23.004] Uh, early in the, well, mid-fif- mid-40s, I guess, uh, you know, he started going to, uh, to the shrinks, you know, Dr. [01:50:23.004 – 01:50:25.604] Thibeault and, and Francis W..

[01:50:25.604 – 01:50:29.224] And, uh, but even before that w- for his depression. [01:50:29.224 – 01:50:33.704] And, uh, and of course, the same thing happens today. [01:50:33.704 – 01:50:34.884] Guess what? [01:50:34.884 – 01:50:45.524] AA members say, "Oh, you must not be working the steps, you know, and that's why you need a psychiatrist." You know, uh, [01:50:45.524 – 01:50:46.684] you know, the… [01:50:46.684 – 01:50:54.623] Alcoholics Anonymous, uh, is to help us, uh, stop drinking, and, uh, it can help us with a lot of other things, too. [01:50:54.623 – 01:51:00.324] But, uh, he, uh, Father M., you know, everybody know Father M. and his chalk talk.

[01:51:00.324 – 01:51:01.244] Anyway- Mm-hmm … [01:51:01.244 – 01:51:11.254] he used to say, "If I'm leaving a, uh, 12-step program and I get hit by a bus, don't take me to another 12-step program." [01:51:11.254 – 01:51:13.524] "Take me to the hospital." Mm-hmm. [01:51:13.524 – 01:51:14.444] You know? [01:51:14.444 – 01:51:20.084] I, you know, uh, AA isn't for, for everything, you know. [01:51:20.084 – 01:51:20.764] Yeah. [01:51:20.764 – 01:51:22.864] Uh, um, that, that's, uh…

[01:51:22.864 – 01:51:30.083] And, and Bill W. realized that, but he also, he was looking for other ways to help alcoholics. [01:51:30.083 – 01:51:30.494] Mm-hmm. [01:51:30.494 – 01:51:38.844] He knew that AA, the big thing was there were these people out there that just couldn't get the spiritual part of it. [01:51:38.844 – 01:51:44.044] You know, they just couldn't get it, this, this God thing or whatever it was. [01:51:44.044 – 01:51:52.104] And, uh, and, and he felt, uh, he, he said once that, "I think that some people are, uh, damaged too much." [01:51:52.792 – 01:51:57.472] And of course, some aren't damaged enough, you know, to make AA work. [01:51:57.472 – 01:52:02.652] And, um, we have to be hurt pretty much, but some people may be too damaged.

[01:52:02.652 – 01:52:13.492] And so that's what things like niacin, the idea of LSD, that some of these things could help these people and put them into a better [01:52:13.492 – 01:52:20.772] condition or shape, uh, to, uh, to be able to work the AA program. [01:52:20.772 – 01:52:31.032] Very early on, the early, I mean early, early Akron, uh, uh, early flying blind period, these, uh, shrinks were telling [01:52:31.032 – 01:52:34.752] them, "You know, you gotta limit your program. [01:52:34.752 – 01:52:44.832] You gotta tell people that, you know, you, you can't get people out of nuthouses and, and people with serious, uh, mental problems, [01:52:44.832 – 01:52:55.172] you can't help them." And of course, uh, you know, how it works tells us, uh, well, if you have the cap- if they have the capacity to be honest- [01:52:55.172 – 01:52:55.712] Honest …

[01:52:55.712 – 01:52:56.392] we help them. [01:52:56.392 – 01:52:57.172] Right. [01:52:57.172 – 01:52:57.732] You know. [01:52:57.732 – 01:53:02.192] So, uh, yeah, I don't think he became, uh, disillusioned as such. [01:53:02.192 – 01:53:12.292] Uh, he, he had a whole lot of faith, uh, in AA and its i- and in its ability to be, uh, what, uh, [01:53:12.292 – 01:53:14.992] Bob, uh, Pearson calls self-correcting. [01:53:14.992 – 01:53:19.712] Whatever's going on, it'll fix itself.

[01:53:19.712 – 01:53:26.232] The group that was drinking beer, you know, in their meetings, uh, in Virginia, you know, guess what? [01:53:26.232 – 01:53:27.632] The beer fixed that problem. [01:53:27.632 – 01:53:30.952] You know, it convinced them that you shouldn't drink beer in meetings. [01:53:30.952 – 01:53:35.852] And, uh, you know, that the problems that we do are self-correcting. [01:53:35.852 – 01:53:36.622] Good man. [01:53:36.622 – 01:53:36.992] Thanks, Jim. [01:53:36.992 – 01:53:40.232] We got about five minutes left, Jim, and then we go back for the meeting after the meeting.

[01:53:40.232 – 01:53:41.642] If I can go quickly to Larry T. [01:53:41.642 – 01:53:43.252] Thank you for that, uh, Anna, as well. [01:53:43.252 – 01:53:43.832] Appreciate it. [01:53:43.832 – 01:53:44.232] Larry T. [01:53:44.232 – 01:53:45.172] in New York City. [01:53:45.172 – 01:53:46.192] Larry? [01:53:46.192 – 01:53:49.492] Hi, everybody.

[01:53:49.492 – 01:53:50.952] Uh, thank you, thank you, thank you. [01:53:50.952 – 01:53:51.752] My name is Larry T. [01:53:51.752 – 01:53:52.492] from New York City. [01:53:52.492 – 01:53:55.502] You know, uh, uh, the more I recover, the more I uncover. [01:53:55.502 – 01:53:56.912] And the more I research- … [01:53:56.912 – 01:53:58.822] and learn to listen and listen to learn, it's outstanding. [01:53:58.822 – 01:54:09.032] I've been to Stepping S. twice, and one of the things I was really amazed by is when, as I, as I journeyed through that house and also that cottage where Bill wrote the 12 and 12 with 10, that they held

[01:54:09.032 – 01:54:09.792] seances. [01:54:09.792 – 01:54:18.712] And then also as I, uh, in my early recovery, I began to hear inklings of stuff like, uh, that Bill was a great 13 stepper. [01:54:18.712 – 01:54:26.272] And I said, "Oh, okay." And, uh, and, and then I also s- heard a lot of stuff about don't be so damn judgemental, just live. [01:54:26.272 – 01:54:30.432] And, and d- because that's the theme of the, uh, t- the 12 steps, the joy of living. [01:54:30.432 – 01:54:36.392] And so what happens is I look in that book and they said, you know, boy meets girl on AA campus. [01:54:36.392 – 01:54:36.422] Sure. [01:54:36.422 – 01:54:42.212] And then the other aspect is we, uh, we recover from the waist up and whatnot.

[01:54:42.212 – 01:54:51.532] And I remember I had a sponsor and I was going through situations quite similar, and he said, "Listen, you have to go through whatever you're going through a day at a time." So sir, I wanna thank you very much. [01:54:51.532 – 01:54:58.052] And David, my brother from another br- mother, it's always great seeing you on Thursday afternoons straight out of, uh, London. [01:54:58.052 – 01:54:59.072] Take care, everybody. [01:54:59.072 – 01:54:59.792] Thank you, Larry. [01:54:59.792 – 01:55:00.712] Much appreciated. [01:55:00.712 – 01:55:01.762] Uh- Thank you … [01:55:01.762 – 01:55:02.072] that's it.

[01:55:02.072 – 01:55:03.352] Mercedes, did you wanna come in? [01:55:03.352 – 01:55:04.912] Because I know you're out of Jim's home group. [01:55:04.912 – 01:55:05.492] Mercedes. [01:55:05.492 – 01:55:06.692] Oh, thank you. [01:55:06.692 – 01:55:08.792] I'm Mercedes, overeater and co-dependent. [01:55:08.792 – 01:55:18.932] I just wanna say that last time I was disappointed in the image I forged for B- uh, for, for [01:55:18.932 – 01:55:19.271] Bill.

[01:55:19.271 – 01:55:29.632] So this one make me, uh, realize that he was human, and this is a, a very huge thing because I try to idealize [01:55:29.632 – 01:55:31.051] his picture. [01:55:31.051 – 01:55:34.332] He's the only one that I have i- idealized. [01:55:34.332 – 01:55:39.162] But, uh, I have been rigid with myself and with others- Mm … [01:55:39.162 – 01:55:40.702] with great expectations. [01:55:40.702 – 01:55:51.092] And I think there is much more, uh, it has more value that you have shortcomings and you fight it, and you work on them, and you try. [01:55:51.092 – 01:55:55.792] And that makes you a better human being like Bill.

[01:55:55.792 – 01:55:57.432] Thank you very much. [01:55:57.432 – 01:55:58.772] Thank you for joining us. [01:55:58.772 – 01:55:59.622] Thank you, Mercedes. [01:55:59.622 – 01:55:59.672] Thank you. [01:55:59.672 – 01:56:00.572] Thank you very much. [01:56:00.572 – 01:56:02.232] Thanks, guys. [01:56:02.232 – 01:56:02.672] Thank you.

[01:56:02.672 – 01:56:04.492] Jim, I'm just gonna go back to you shortly. [01:56:04.492 – 01:56:06.021] I just wanna mention your meeting next week. [01:56:06.021 – 01:56:10.971] If we're gonna close with your, uh, few remarks or your prayer or… [01:56:10.971 – 01:56:12.832] So we're just gonna mention this to build. [01:56:12.832 – 01:56:18.932] Uh, Jim is gonna f- come along next week for us to finalize the trilogy with, uh, Bill W., 5171. [01:56:18.932 – 01:56:23.532] Part three, he's gonna be looking at politics, religion, for some reason whiskey. [01:56:23.532 – 01:56:28.572] Which so I'm looking forward to hearing more about that, Jim.

[01:56:28.572 – 01:56:30.492] Jim, it's wonderful to have you here. [01:56:30.492 – 01:56:36.992] And Larry, uh, mentioned Bill S.'s book, uh, which is Writing the Big Book: The Creation of AA. [01:56:36.992 – 01:56:37.612] And we do a… [01:56:37.612 – 01:56:39.112] If I can find it. [01:56:39.112 – 01:56:43.032] We, we do a talk on a reading on that chapter every week, and we read the whole chapter. [01:56:43.032 – 01:56:47.792] And we have a course, I should mention, we have Bill S. in the room with us, which is wonderful. [01:56:47.792 – 01:56:51.372] And this is what we're doing, um, this Thursday, and we're gonna have Matthew M.

[01:56:51.372 – 01:56:56.872] um, uh, reading for us out of Santa P., and footnotes are gonna be read by Bill C.. [01:56:56.872 – 01:56:57.892] How good is that? [01:56:57.892 – 01:57:04.032] And this is about Hank when he approached Silas B., who I believe was the third sober member in New York. [01:57:04.032 – 01:57:05.572] Larry will put me right on that, Larry T. [01:57:05.572 – 01:57:11.732] He was the third sober member in New York, uh, Silas B., and he worked with This Week Magazine. [01:57:11.908 – 01:57:14.788] I believe, am I right in saying that, uh, Jim? [01:57:14.788 – 01:57:16.088] I turn it back to you.

[01:57:16.088 – 01:57:16.398] Mm-hmm. [01:57:16.398 – 01:57:16.399] Yes. [01:57:16.399 – 01:57:17.287] Thank you. [01:57:17.287 – 01:57:19.428] So we're going back to you, Jim. [01:57:19.428 – 01:57:21.228] And, uh, thank you everyone for your attention. [01:57:21.228 – 01:57:22.228] We've done two hours. [01:57:22.228 – 01:57:23.308] Pleasure.

[01:57:23.308 – 01:57:24.928] We're gonna have a meeting after the meeting very quickly. [01:57:24.928 – 01:57:25.648] Jim? [01:57:25.648 – 01:57:28.868] David, um, uh, what time is it in London? [01:57:28.868 – 01:57:29.548] We have… [01:57:29.548 – 01:57:30.768] We're going into tomorrow just now. [01:57:30.768 – 01:57:32.388] It's, uh, 12 o'clock, midnight. [01:57:32.388 – 01:57:42.588] It's 12 o'clock, um, and, uh, I am, um, uh, going to, uh, uh, read something here.

[01:57:42.588 – 01:57:43.328] Mm-hmm. [01:57:43.328 – 01:57:45.068] And I'll tell you why. [01:57:45.068 – 01:57:55.108] Um, I'm, I'm going to, uh, to close the meeting and, [01:57:55.108 – 01:57:59.188] um, I'm, I'm gonna start off with, uh, with, with this. [01:57:59.188 – 01:58:03.128] And, um- Hmm. [01:58:03.128 – 01:58:06.568] I'm working on it there. [01:58:06.568 – 01:58:10.568] Oh, well, no, it's not gonna let me do that.

[01:58:10.568 – 01:58:12.968] It took me all the way to back in. [01:58:12.968 – 01:58:14.088] I, I, I have to… [01:58:14.088 – 01:58:14.548] Sorry. [01:58:14.548 – 01:58:16.948] I'll just do it, uh… [01:58:16.948 – 01:58:24.088] I apologize, but my, my… [01:58:24.088 – 01:58:34.548] Y- you know, we were talking about the, uh, uh, at the, there, you know, talking about listening to the, listening to the sounds of silence [01:58:34.548 – 01:58:42.708] and stepping stones and, and, uh, and, and listening to, uh, the, the people that had come before us.

[01:58:42.708 – 01:58:43.348] Mm-hmm. [01:58:43.348 – 01:58:47.548] And I think that's what we do here in, uh, we study history. [01:58:47.548 – 01:58:53.608] And just, uh, this little bit, I cannot help but think and feel somewhat the same today as they did. [01:58:53.608 – 01:59:03.688] You know, when they were trying to talk to the spirits and communicate with the spirits, uh, like they did, that somehow some way, we in London, Mexico, [01:59:03.688 – 01:59:13.948] Ireland, Australia, the US, Iceland, Canada, and around the world are joined in the fellowship of the spirit with those who have gone before us and paved the way for us. [01:59:13.948 – 01:59:14.828] That is why our… [01:59:14.828 – 01:59:16.428] That is what our history does for me.

[01:59:16.428 – 01:59:21.588] It helps me to see and feel the fellowship in a deeper and more meaningful way. [01:59:21.588 – 01:59:26.828] We are in communication with them and they with us in real and a valuable way. [01:59:26.828 – 01:59:35.388] And that in the study of our common history, we find our common solution, our common bond, and a gratitude that go- knows no end. [01:59:35.388 – 01:59:40.408] And, uh, so since it is, uh… [01:59:40.408 – 01:59:46.728] Well, let me, let me go to the, uh, final prayer, and then I will end with something else. [01:59:46.728 – 01:59:50.628] I'd like to end with this prayer that's Bill's morning prayer. [01:59:50.628 – 01:59:57.508] And it says, "Oh L., we thank thee that thou art, that we are from everlasting to everlasting.

[01:59:57.508 – 02:00:03.668] Blessed be thy holy name and all thy benefactions to us of light, of love, and of service. [02:00:03.668 – 02:00:08.148] May we find and do thy will in good strength and good cheer today. [02:00:08.148 – 02:00:18.228] May thy ever-present grace be discovered by family and friends, those here and those beyond, by our societies throughout the world, by men [02:00:18.228 – 02:00:21.928] and women everywhere, and among those who must lead in these troubled times. [02:00:21.928 – 02:00:29.448] Oh L., we know thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all glory, all power, all love. [02:00:29.448 – 02:00:31.848] Indeed, thou art everlasting love. [02:00:31.848 – 02:00:42.468] Accordingly, thou hast fashioned for us a destiny passing through thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of thee and in no separation between ourselves.

[02:00:42.468 – 02:00:50.268] For all these great wonders, benefactions, and assurances, we now raise hearts and minds to thee, oh Father of lights. [02:00:50.268 – 02:01:01.398] We are filled with gratitude that shall be timeless." And for me today, uh, being here with you at this particular time, that [02:01:01.398 – 02:01:01.808] it is… [02:01:01.808 – 02:01:05.778] What's the date in, uh, uh, today in London? [02:01:05.778 – 02:01:07.708] Just going into the fif- we're just going into the 5th of March. [02:01:07.708 – 02:01:08.848] 5th to the 3rd, um. [02:01:08.848 – 02:01:09.648] Yeah.

[02:01:09.648 – 02:01:16.228] And, uh, I'll, I'll, uh, say this the way that I usually start my, uh, presentations. [02:01:16.228 – 02:01:18.547] My name's Jim W.. [02:01:18.547 – 02:01:28.128] My sobriety date, my sobriety date is March 5th, 1989. [02:01:28.128 – 02:01:29.528] Thank you. [02:01:29.528 – 02:01:31.668] Thank you, Jim. [02:01:31.668 – 02:01:32.948] Appr- much appreciated. [02:01:32.948 – 02:01:34.568] Please unmute for one last time.

[02:01:34.568 – 02:01:35.528] Thank you, everyone. [02:01:35.528 – 02:01:37.158] Thank you, Jim. [02:01:37.158 – 02:01:38.058] Happy birthday. [02:01:38.058 – 02:01:38.768] Thank you. [02:01:38.768 – 02:01:42.628] Thanks. [02:01:42.628 – 02:01:43.198] Happy birthday to you. [02:01:43.198 – 02:01:44.598] Happy birthday.

[02:01:44.598 – 02:01:47.948] Happy birthday, Jim. [02:01:47.948 – 02:01:48.938] Happy birthday. [02:01:48.938 – 02:01:48.939] Happy birthday, Jim. [02:01:48.939 – 02:01:48.940] Happy birthday dear Jim. [02:01:48.940 – 02:01:51.308] Happy birthday to you. [02:01:51.308 – 02:01:53.948] From London. [02:01:53.948 – 02:01:55.868] Thank you.

[02:01:55.868 – 02:01:58.128] Happy birthday, Jim, and I love to see the emotion. [02:01:58.128 – 02:01:59.028] That was awesome. [02:01:59.028 – 02:01:59.628] Whoa. [02:01:59.628 – 02:02:01.108] It is emotional. [02:02:01.108 – 02:02:02.578] Thank you. [02:02:02.578 – 02:02:02.579] It is. [02:02:02.579 – 02:02:02.580] Thank you.

[02:02:02.580 – 02:02:04.108] Congratulations. [02:02:04.108 – 02:02:04.728] Yeah. [02:02:04.728 – 02:02:06.548] Good to be here. [02:02:06.548 – 02:02:11.788] No better way to s- to spend a anniversary than, than in a meeting here. [02:02:11.788 – 02:02:12.638] No better. [02:02:12.638 – 02:02:14.588] And sharing all your knowledge with us. [02:02:14.588 – 02:02:15.688] Thank you so much.

[02:02:15.688 – 02:02:17.268] Hello, Lola. [02:02:17.268 – 02:02:17.808] My pleasure. [02:02:17.808 – 02:02:19.288] Glad, glad you enjoyed it. [02:02:19.288 – 02:02:19.418] Hi, Jim. [02:02:19.418 – 02:02:20.568] Thank you, Mercedes. [02:02:20.568 – 02:02:22.438] You can play this. [02:02:22.438 – 02:02:22.439] It's already here.

[02:02:22.439 – 02:02:22.948] Thank you. [02:02:22.948 – 02:02:23.728] Thank you. [02:02:23.728 – 02:02:24.277] Play it back to us. [02:02:24.277 – 02:02:26.008] Thank you, everyone. [02:02:26.008 – 02:02:27.738] I'm going to pause the recording. [02:02:27.738 – 02:02:30.468] Jim W., congratulations once again from everyone here.