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[00:00:02.120 – 00:00:02.760] Good evening everyone. [00:00:02.760 – 00:00:06.170] My name is David and I'm an alcoholic, and I'd like to welcome you to this open A.A. [00:00:06.170 – 00:00:07.780] recovery workshop with Q&A. [00:00:07.780 – 00:00:13.960] This is one of a series of workshops inspired by recoveryspeakers.com, and it's hosted by the Saturday night A.A. [00:00:13.960 – 00:00:16.360] group here in Camberwell, London, SE5. [00:00:16.360 – 00:00:21.210] In keeping with A.A.'s traditions, in particular tradition five which states, "Each A.A. [00:00:21.210 – 00:00:31.480] group has but one primary purpose, and that of course is to carry its message to the alcoholics who are still suffering." Now the main purpose of these workshops is to introduce and/or develop

[00:00:31.480 – 00:00:37.540] ideas, concepts, and hopefully to encourage participants to do some further investigation on their own. [00:00:37.540 – 00:00:41.500] We've had a common thread throughout, and now may I continue. [00:00:41.500 – 00:00:51.940] A quote from step 10 in our basic text which says, "We have entered the world of the spirit, and that our next function is to grow in understanding and effectiveness." [00:00:51.940 – 00:00:55.800] And if you're new to A.A., that's on page 84, paragraph two. [00:00:55.800 – 00:00:58.430] So it's after the step, uh, nine promises. [00:00:58.430 – 00:01:04.220] And, uh, tonight we are delighted to welcome back, uh, Jackie B out of San Francisco. [00:01:04.220 – 00:01:12.320] Uh, Jackie's gonna do a presentation on the history of orthodoxy in A.A., in Alcoholics Anonymous, from the orthodox movement to the white paper.

[00:01:12.320 – 00:01:16.150] And we were at our Writing the Big Book meeting, the Creation of A.A. [00:01:16.150 – 00:01:16.740] yesterday, and Mr… [00:01:16.740 – 00:01:26.760] We mentioned this, uh, meeting that we have tonight, and Bill S., who's the writer or the author of, uh, Writing the Big Book: The Creation of A.A., uh, just mentioned straight off the bat, he j- and I [00:01:26.760 – 00:01:30.360] took some notes quickly down, and he said, "Jackie B," Jackie, all yours. [00:01:30.360 – 00:01:34.590] "Jackie B is perhaps the brightest shining star we have in our A.A. [00:01:34.590 – 00:01:44.700] historian community." Bill further went on, he says, "She is a dogged, diligent, and careful in her research, and an outstanding writer of both history and plays." [00:01:44.700 – 00:01:54.360] He says, "She never fails to knock me out whenever I get a chance to listen to one of her presentations." Wow, now what an endorsement that is.

[00:01:54.360 – 00:01:57.080] Thank you for that, Mr. [00:01:57.080 – 00:01:57.780] Bill S.. [00:01:57.780 – 00:02:02.340] And, uh, three ways of working the 12 steps, and I'm sure Jackie will tell us more about that. [00:02:02.340 – 00:02:12.340] Now these, uh, meetings are being recorded, and our previous ones before the passing of the great Mike McKee, M., are on recoverytapers.com, and I put a link for that in [00:02:12.340 – 00:02:12.760] the chat. [00:02:12.760 – 00:02:19.980] But they're also now on recoveryspeakers.com, and we'd like to give a big shout-out to Mike K. over there at recoveryspeakers.com. [00:02:19.980 – 00:02:26.250] I just wanna point out that what is shared at these workshop meetings represents the experience, the strength, and the hope of A.A.

[00:02:26.250 – 00:02:29.520] members, and are not to be taken, obviously, to represent the fellowship as a whole. [00:02:29.520 – 00:02:36.700] The 12-step proven program of recovery can be found in our basic textbook titled Alcoholics Anonymous, which we fondly call the Big Book. [00:02:36.700 – 00:02:41.500] I just mention that because we do have a meeting after the meeting, and then we have a meeting after the meeting after the meeting. [00:02:41.500 – 00:02:43.700] So we do have, we do keep going for quite a while. [00:02:43.700 – 00:02:49.580] But Jackie's gonna stay behind for, uh, hopefully about 20, 25 minutes for some Q&A, and w- we appreciate that, Jackie. [00:02:49.580 – 00:02:50.020] Thank you. [00:02:50.020 – 00:02:59.740] Now if you'd like to unmute, uh, please do so, 'cause we're gonna just get into the language of the heart, uh, the fellowship, the spirit, and we're gonna say this version of the set aside prayer.

[00:02:59.740 – 00:03:00.840] It always works for me. [00:03:00.840 – 00:03:05.580] Um, so using God as you do or don't understand, God- God please help me … [00:03:05.580 – 00:03:09.920] please help me to set aside anything that I know. [00:03:09.920 – 00:03:14.420] Open mind to a new experience. [00:03:14.420 – 00:03:15.160] Amen. [00:03:15.160 – 00:03:25.440] And we'll just have a few moments to gather our thoughts, reflect on why we're here, and to think of the alcoholics, uh, who are still suffering from alcoholism, and still think alcohol [00:03:25.440 – 00:03:27.580] is their solution, and, and their family members.

[00:03:27.580 – 00:03:37.720] So with that, without further ado, [00:03:37.720 – 00:03:38.940] Jackie, it's all yours. [00:03:38.940 – 00:03:40.360] Have a great presentation. [00:03:40.360 – 00:03:42.800] Hello, everyone. [00:03:42.800 – 00:03:44.320] My name is Jackie. [00:03:44.320 – 00:03:48.640] Uh, I am an alcoholic in San Francisco, California. [00:03:48.640 – 00:03:53.540] My sobriety date is June 28th, 2006.

[00:03:53.540 – 00:04:03.660] And I'm gonna tell you a little bit of story, um, of how this presentation and this research began, and give you a little personal context about me. [00:04:03.660 – 00:04:08.600] In the second and third year of my sobriety, I joined a back to basics A.A. [00:04:08.600 – 00:04:09.920] group and book study. [00:04:09.920 – 00:04:15.049] In this group we were taught that we were foot soldiers in a battle to save A.A. [00:04:15.049 – 00:04:20.079] from corrosive influence of treatment centers and pop psychology. [00:04:20.079 – 00:04:24.220] Uh, we would never look at the Living S. book or even the 12 and 12. [00:04:24.220 – 00:04:27.540] The only book that was worth our time studying was the Big Book.

[00:04:27.540 – 00:04:37.700] And a lot of references were actually made to the original monolith manuscript, um, which those of you may know had a much more definitive tone [00:04:37.700 – 00:04:38.700] to it. [00:04:38.700 – 00:04:45.960] Um, and we studied, uh, the, uh, fourth edition Big Book, as well as the first edition Big Book, and the monolith manuscript. [00:04:45.960 – 00:04:50.940] Um, and, you know, in this group there was definitely a right way to do A.A. [00:04:50.940 – 00:05:00.120] and a wrong way to do A.A., um, and at stake were the lives of millions of newcomers coming to us, um, in A.A. [00:05:00.120 – 00:05:00.800] as a whole. [00:05:00.800 – 00:05:05.020] And it was an exhilarating period of time in my recovery.

[00:05:05.020 – 00:05:06.160] I had… [00:05:06.160 – 00:05:16.320] was filled with a great sense of purpose, um, in A.A., um, but I did end up leaving that group after two years because of a time [00:05:16.320 – 00:05:16.900] conflict. [00:05:16.900 – 00:05:18.000] That was all. [00:05:18.000 – 00:05:24.130] I, I was going into recovery around my eating disorder, joining another fellowship that didn't have a- [00:05:24.260 – 00:05:33.350] As many meetings and, um, my home group, my Back to Basics group only met, um, primarily on Thursday nights, and that's… [00:05:33.350 – 00:05:34.640] I wasn't able to keep going.

[00:05:34.640 – 00:05:44.700] But I still count many of the members there as friends, and I learned a whole lot about our big book and our text, and I still use so much of what I learned [00:05:44.700 – 00:05:46.000] with my sponsees today. [00:05:46.000 – 00:05:50.420] After I left the group, I became interested in AA history. [00:05:50.420 – 00:06:00.760] In around year three, four, I started writing plays about the history of AA just for our local intergroup, and that's what got me s- started on my research, [00:06:00.760 – 00:06:08.240] um, into AA history, and I became especially interested in the history of the traditions, and later on in general service. [00:06:08.240 – 00:06:13.640] Uh, I became a GSR, a general service representative, when I was 12 years sober. [00:06:13.640 – 00:06:24.200] Uh, I had mentors and service sponsors who had v- variety of different points of view around AA about our big book, our literature.

[00:06:24.200 – 00:06:30.500] Um, and, and my service sponsor for a while was incredibly eager for change. [00:06:30.500 – 00:06:40.700] Um, and it was in stark contrast to my earlier experience as a member of the Back to Basics group, where our focus was on returning AA to its reported [00:06:40.700 – 00:06:44.380] effectiveness of its pioneering years. [00:06:44.380 – 00:06:54.660] In 2019, I became a district committee member, it's called a DCM, in my general service area, and I was asked to give a talk on Back to Basics [00:06:54.660 – 00:06:56.900] for a monthly DCM sharing session. [00:06:56.900 – 00:07:01.000] Now, this is an unusual topic for a general service district. [00:07:01.000 – 00:07:08.640] Um, and for me, it had a lot of punch, you know, that, uh, th- just that brief three words, Back to Basics.

[00:07:08.640 – 00:07:16.320] So that presentation that I gave in 2019, um, at a sharing session, that was the seeds for this full history talk. [00:07:16.320 – 00:07:21.840] I wanted to understand where this idea of returning to basic original principles had come from. [00:07:21.840 – 00:07:31.880] And in my early research, I began to notice that certain phrases and language emerged, phrases and language that I had heard in my, uh, second and third year getting sober in that [00:07:31.880 – 00:07:33.100] Back to Basics group. [00:07:33.100 – 00:07:43.680] Um, and the same time, I was introduced by chance, um, in a podcast, which I'll talk about later, but to the ideas of this American theologian [00:07:43.680 – 00:07:44.640] named Hans F.. [00:07:44.640 – 00:07:48.300] Uh, he famously studied biblical narratives.

[00:07:48.300 – 00:07:58.340] And, uh, this idea got a little plucked in my head, um, and I decided to use some of his terminology and concepts to [00:07:58.340 – 00:08:02.220] understand the history of AA and as well as our big book. [00:08:02.220 – 00:08:07.040] And, um, and through the lens of how does our fellowship react to change. [00:08:07.040 – 00:08:17.209] So essentially, that's what this history talk is about, how some AA groups and influential figures have reacted to cultural and social changes in Alcoholics [00:08:17.209 – 00:08:19.720] Anonymous and also in the greater society. [00:08:19.720 – 00:08:26.680] Um, and specifically, we're looking at what we will use the term orthodoxy or orthodox. [00:08:26.680 – 00:08:28.480] So I'm gonna share my screen now.

[00:08:28.480 – 00:08:32.840] And you're gonna see black for a moment. [00:08:32.840 – 00:08:38.340] And let's play from start. [00:08:38.340 – 00:08:39.700] Okay. [00:08:39.700 – 00:08:42.040] Give it… [00:08:42.040 – 00:08:42.880] There we go. [00:08:42.880 – 00:08:43.679] Should see… [00:08:43.679 – 00:08:45.500] You see just the slide, correct?

[00:08:45.500 – 00:08:46.380] Yeah. [00:08:46.380 – 00:08:46.920] Okay. [00:08:46.920 – 00:08:48.920] All right. [00:08:48.920 – 00:08:58.860] So, and I'll put my email in there if anyone want, is interested in any of these slides, or, uh, I'll also send you my talk. [00:08:58.860 – 00:09:01.600] I wrote out my, my full talk from 2019. [00:09:01.600 – 00:09:05.180] But let's just, you know, come to an understanding of the word orthodox. [00:09:05.180 – 00:09:15.700] And, um, normally I don't like to use any kind of, uh, ironically, like, religious terms when talking about AA, but, you know, this is, uh, orthodoxy

[00:09:15.700 – 00:09:25.740] in terms of a point of view, and it can apply both to religion, but to any, you know, social groups, um, as well as texts. [00:09:25.740 – 00:09:35.870] And so the, uh, Encyclopedia B., uh, the wor- of the root orthodox is from Greek, orthodoxos, and it means the right opinion, or another [00:09:35.870 – 00:09:37.940] way to look at it is true doctrine. [00:09:37.940 – 00:09:48.460] And in a religious context, it typically refers to a belief or practice or sect that adheres strictly to ancient tradition, as opposed to unconventional [00:09:48.460 – 00:09:50.260] or heretical doctrines. [00:09:50.260 – 00:09:56.000] Orthodoxy only exists when deviations in a belief or a practice occur. [00:09:56.000 – 00:09:58.590] There is no orthodoxy at the beginning of a movement.

[00:09:58.590 – 00:10:05.240] Orthodoxy is something that develops when a movement or religion or belief starts to change. [00:10:05.240 – 00:10:10.480] Um, so in many ways, orthodoxy can be viewed as a reaction to change. [00:10:10.480 – 00:10:20.020] But I really like the simple definition that, uh, Hans F., the theologian I mentioned, I like his simple definition for orthodox. [00:10:20.020 – 00:10:30.340] Um, and, uh, originally he came up with the term in terms of a perspective or an approach to, uh, interpreting biblical scripture, [00:10:30.340 – 00:10:37.760] but we will just use it in a very simple way, which is orthodox means committed to one's tradition, little T tradition. [00:10:37.760 – 00:10:45.640] Um, and it's in contrast to what Frei called a generous interpretation, uh, which is open to change. [00:10:45.640 – 00:10:48.129] And so as we go through this talk, I'm-

[00:10:48.368 – 00:10:58.848] I would like you to just always remember that when I'm talking about orthodoxy in AA or orthodox groups, um, I'm talking about a group or a member that is committed to [00:10:58.848 – 00:11:04.238] what it views as its tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous, specifically the pioneering time. [00:11:04.238 – 00:11:06.668] So let's get into it. [00:11:06.668 – 00:11:16.768] Um, I do have to give a little historical context because orthodoxy is so much about returning to, uh, early roots that we have to talk about the early roots of AA just a little bit, [00:11:16.768 – 00:11:19.428] um, and specifically the Oxford Group. [00:11:19.428 – 00:11:29.448] So as many people here probably know, co-founders were both active members of the Oxford Group when they met on Mother's Day of [00:11:29.448 – 00:11:30.608] 1935.

[00:11:30.608 – 00:11:33.568] Bill was introduced to the Oxford Group by Ebby T. [00:11:33.568 – 00:11:34.308] on November… [00:11:34.308 – 00:11:36.328] in November 1934, and Dr. [00:11:36.328 – 00:11:46.368] Bob was, uh, brought into the Oxford Group by non-alcoholic family friend, Henrietta S., in March of 1935, two months before she would introduce Bob [00:11:46.368 – 00:11:46.788] to Bill. [00:11:46.788 – 00:11:56.558] Um, the Oxford Group originally was named First C. Christian F. and was or- an organization founded by American missionary, Dr. [00:11:56.558 – 00:11:58.028] Frank B..

[00:11:58.028 – 00:12:08.028] And so, you know, the important cons- concepts of the Oxford Group's principles of the Oxford Group, aspects of the Oxford Group that I wanna bring up, uh, is, you know, the four absolutes [00:12:08.028 – 00:12:17.028] were the moral yardsticks that you tested your thoughts and actions against: absolute honesty, absolute unselfishness, absolute purity, absolute love. [00:12:17.028 – 00:12:27.108] There was also the five C's: um, confidence, confession, conviction, conversion, continuance, and these five C's were the process of life-changing, and that's what the [00:12:27.108 – 00:12:30.158] Oxford Group was in the business of, life transformation. [00:12:30.158 – 00:12:34.628] Uh, morning quiet time, um, was incredibly important. [00:12:34.628 – 00:12:42.568] Um, sitting quiet with pen and paper, reading spiritual literature, and asking for God's, um, direction and perspective. [00:12:42.568 – 00:12:52.728] Also very important was sharing, um, which we still use in AA today, and the term sharing, uh, which came from the Oxford Group, uh, was for witness and confession,

[00:12:52.728 – 00:12:56.987] um, and testimony, and it was considered a necessity. [00:12:56.987 – 00:13:00.788] Um, moving forward. [00:13:00.788 – 00:13:07.328] Um, also, you know, we hear a lot about the six step program, but, uh, there actually was no six step program. [00:13:07.328 – 00:13:17.428] Um, the six step program of the early AAs before they were called AA, um, which is described in AA Comes of Age and Earl T.'s Big Book [00:13:17.428 – 00:13:19.328] story, He S. Himself S.. [00:13:19.328 – 00:13:24.728] Um, that six step program, uh, Bill S. writes beautifully about. [00:13:24.728 – 00:13:31.488] Um, but that was actually, uh, created by the AAs, um, themselves, um, based on Oxford Group principles.

[00:13:31.488 – 00:13:41.508] So, you know, that's just a little fun historical, um, correction that I always like to bring out, you know, um, because inevitably people ask about the six step program of the Oxford [00:13:41.508 – 00:13:44.188] Group, and there was no six step program in the Oxford Group. [00:13:44.188 – 00:13:49.908] Um, but, you know, we did separate from the Oxford Group in different stages. [00:13:49.908 – 00:13:52.648] Um, in August of 1937, Bill W. [00:13:52.648 – 00:13:58.048] and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings, and the New York AAs separated from the Oxford Group. [00:13:58.048 – 00:14:03.928] At this time, they just called themselves a nameless bunch of drunks, but as they were writing their book, they, um… [00:14:03.928 – 00:14:09.228] There's some question about whether the New York group or the Cleveland group was the first to call itself Alcoholics Anonymous.

[00:14:09.228 – 00:14:19.498] Um, but, uh, the Cleveland group was the second group to separate from the Oxford Group on May 10th of 1939, led by Clarence S., whose [00:14:19.498 – 00:14:30.258] Big Book story is Home B. Meister, um, and that they would meet separately from the Akron O. Group, and they were the first to use the name, um, [00:14:30.258 – 00:14:32.308] A- Alcoholics Anonymous, according to them. [00:14:32.308 – 00:14:42.548] Uh, and then of course, the Akron members of- were still considering themselves, um, at this time as members of the alcoholic [00:14:42.548 – 00:14:45.528] squad of the Oxford Group, and they held meetings at Dr. [00:14:45.528 – 00:14:46.288] Bob's house. [00:14:46.288 – 00:14:48.088] Um, and but they did…

[00:14:48.088 – 00:14:49.208] Okay, sorry. [00:14:49.208 – 00:14:50.288] I'm having… [00:14:50.288 – 00:14:51.008] It's not… [00:14:51.008 – 00:14:52.228] There we go. [00:14:52.228 – 00:15:01.888] Um, uh, it was a painful separation when the Akron group separated from the Oxford Group, um, because of the great affection that Dr. [00:15:01.888 – 00:15:12.488] Bob and, uh, had, um, towards Henrietta and some of the other non-alcoholics who had been loyal, uh, attendees and supporters of their work helping alcoholics. [00:15:12.488 – 00:15:22.568] Um, and the founding of the Cleveland group and this action by the Akron group es- ended all outside affiliation between the AA fellowship and the Oxford Group or

[00:15:22.568 – 00:15:23.268] anyone else. [00:15:23.268 – 00:15:26.788] Um, why did we separate from the Oxford Group? [00:15:26.788 – 00:15:28.428] Um, according to Bill W. [00:15:28.428 – 00:15:38.448] in AA Comes of Age, "The Oxford Group had clearly shown us what to do, and just as importantly, we had to also learn from them what not to do as far as alcoholics were [00:15:38.448 – 00:15:38.968] concerned. [00:15:38.968 – 00:15:49.168] We found that certain of their ideas and attitudes simply could not be sold to alcoholics." So these ideas included, as Bill describes it, aggressive evangelism, [00:15:49.168 – 00:15:51.088] team guidance in personal lives.

[00:15:51.088 – 00:15:55.168] So that was a big part of the Oxford Group meetings, home meetings. [00:15:55.168 – 00:15:58.488] Um, too authoritarian. [00:15:58.488 – 00:16:00.708] Um, a lot of rigidity. [00:16:00.708 – 00:16:02.768] Um, I love this one. [00:16:02.768 – 00:16:12.358] "Alcoholics don't wanna get too good too quickly." And, um, you know, another big thing was that for alcoholics and helping alcoholics, it seemed that progress- [00:16:12.576 – 00:16:19.516] Versus perfection worked a lot better than attempting to, uh, live up to the absolutes. [00:16:19.516 – 00:16:28.196] Um, also anonymity was vital for newcomers, and the Oxford Group was definitely in the public eye a lot.

[00:16:28.196 – 00:16:30.656] Um, Frank B. loved celebrities. [00:16:30.656 – 00:16:41.096] And so, uh, having, um, a group that shunned too much public attention was better and, and safer for attracting newcomers. [00:16:41.096 – 00:16:49.616] But the Oxford Group principles are still to this day honored in Akron and Midwestern AA. [00:16:49.616 – 00:16:54.976] As you can see, uh, the four absolutes little mini pamphlet is still published by the Akron I.. [00:16:54.976 – 00:17:02.516] And uh, that chip, as you can see, has the purity, love, honesty, unselfishness, the four absolutes on it, and Dr. [00:17:02.516 – 00:17:06.176] Bob's grave famously still has the four absolutes on it. [00:17:06.176 – 00:17:16.435] So it's still, um, very much the four absolutes and some of these earlier principles of the, uh, Oxford Group are still used, um, by AA members

[00:17:16.435 – 00:17:20.076] today, though it's not a part of our official literature. [00:17:20.076 – 00:17:30.156] So the first example I found of an orthodox group in AA history was aptly named the Orthodox [00:17:30.156 – 00:17:30.806] Movement. [00:17:30.806 – 00:17:37.736] According to AA historian Mitchell K., the Orthodox M. was formed in 1948 when Dr. [00:17:37.736 – 00:17:44.636] Bob was diagnosed with cancer, and Bill began campaigning for the formation of the general service conference. [00:17:44.636 – 00:17:54.906] So here is according to Mitchell K., the known members of the, uh, Orthodox M. were Henrietta S., a non-alcoholic Oxford [00:17:54.906 – 00:17:59.976] Group member, as we said, who introduced Bill and Bob, um, and was friends with Clarence.

[00:17:59.976 – 00:18:01.216] Uh, Clarence S. [00:18:01.216 – 00:18:04.036] was loosely associated with the Orthodox M.. [00:18:04.036 – 00:18:11.036] Um, uh, and he, uh, this is actually his biography written by his sponsee, Mitchell K. [00:18:11.036 – 00:18:21.055] And another important member of the Orthodox M., according to Mitchell K., was Royal S., an attorney who was instrumental in the incorporation of the [00:18:21.056 – 00:18:26.596] AA Grapevine and did, uh, helped with other legal matters for the general service board in the 1940s. [00:18:26.596 – 00:18:30.876] So those are like the prominent members of the Orthodox M. that we know of. [00:18:30.876 – 00:18:34.886] And there's Henrietta, and there's Clarence.

[00:18:34.886 – 00:18:37.996] Okay. [00:18:37.996 – 00:18:44.616] Uh, their goal, according to Mitchell K., was to keep the AA movement true to its original intent and purpose. [00:18:44.616 – 00:18:54.676] They felt that the new direction which AA was beginning to take would water down or dilute the effectiveness and success which the movement [00:18:54.676 – 00:18:55.576] had achieved. [00:18:55.576 – 00:19:00.216] So what was this new direction, and what were they concerned about? [00:19:00.216 – 00:19:09.796] What changes were taking place in the late '40s, uh, that concerned the, and brought to life the Orthodox M. as a reaction? [00:19:09.796 – 00:19:19.936] Well, uh, the 12 traditions were published in 1946, and from some of the letters written by Orthodox M. members, they weren't happy

[00:19:19.936 – 00:19:21.816] about the publishing of the 12 traditions. [00:19:21.816 – 00:19:27.116] They did not feel like any additional spiritual principles were needed outside of the 12 steps. [00:19:27.116 – 00:19:33.036] Um, they also objected strenuously to changes that Bill W. [00:19:33.036 – 00:19:37.416] was proposing to the board of trustees, um, at the national headquarters. [00:19:37.416 – 00:19:40.965] In 1947, Bill sent a memo to the board of trustees. [00:19:40.965 – 00:19:51.536] Um, he describes the construction of a centralized world service structure that necessitated the creation of a yearly conference to advise and instruct [00:19:51.536 – 00:19:52.396] the future board.

[00:19:52.396 – 00:19:54.336] Does that sound familiar to anyone? [00:19:54.336 – 00:19:59.536] And why was Bill proposing, uh, a yearly conference? [00:19:59.536 – 00:20:09.556] Well, Bill had been attempting to get out of his duties in the headquarters as early as 1940, and he did [00:20:09.556 – 00:20:16.876] suffer from a major depression in the mid '40s, one that at one point kept him out of the office for over six months. [00:20:16.876 – 00:20:26.596] But he was always concerned about what would happen to AA, and particularly that central office, that, uh, headquarters when he was not there. [00:20:26.596 – 00:20:28.386] In J. of 1948, Dr. [00:20:28.386 – 00:20:30.576] Bob was diagnosed with terminal cancer.

[00:20:30.576 – 00:20:32.516] This spurred Bill W. [00:20:32.516 – 00:20:34.726] into greater urgency as B- uh, Dr. [00:20:34.726 – 00:20:36.236] Bob's illness progressed. [00:20:36.236 – 00:20:41.576] He pressed harder and harder for a general service conference to take the place of the AA founders. [00:20:41.576 – 00:20:44.515] So B., what Bill was really concerned about was the succession. [00:20:44.515 – 00:20:48.136] What would happen when Bill and Bob were no longer around? [00:20:48.136 – 00:20:56.476] Who would succeed as the leaders of the movement, and the dangers that can happen when, um, m- successions take place?

[00:20:56.476 – 00:21:03.396] Uh, the headquarters and the trustees began receiving letters of concern from all around the country, in particular the Midwest. [00:21:03.396 – 00:21:10.806] So this is a statement of opposition fr- and that's, uh, in the general service office archives, dated April 1948. [00:21:10.806 – 00:21:16.296] There's no other information about it, but it's attributed, we believe it's attributed to the Orthodox M.. [00:21:16.296 – 00:21:26.656] And you can see, um, and it appears that this was not just mailed to the general service office, but most likely mailed to many of the groups in the Midwest [00:21:26.656 – 00:21:28.196] and possibly around the country. [00:21:28.196 – 00:21:36.496] Um, and their concern was about, um, AA becoming too organized [00:21:37.164 – 00:21:40.464] And all the dangers that would come from oval organization.

[00:21:40.464 – 00:21:49.344] And they felt it would take away from the spirituality of the movement and corrupt it. [00:21:49.344 – 00:21:59.704] And this is an interesting, this emphasis is mine, "When and if a movement tends to become an organization, non-conformers and dissenters [00:21:59.704 – 00:22:04.324] insist upon the preservation of original principles and purposes. [00:22:04.324 – 00:22:14.574] Um, and they will appear and divisions and schisms will occur." And so this is probably one of the earliest examples of this, uh, that I read and found [00:22:14.574 – 00:22:19.504] of the need to preserve the original principles and purposes of AA. [00:22:19.504 – 00:22:29.584] The writers of this statement offered the following suggestions on how the foundation, uh, the Alcoholic F., which was what the general service [00:22:29.584 – 00:22:35.504] board w- was originally called, can ensure the preservation of AA's original principles and purposes.

[00:22:35.504 – 00:22:42.404] Special workers must be dedicated members, and their compensation and tenure should be limited. [00:22:42.404 – 00:22:46.704] The volume and scope of the headquarters work should be kept at a minimum. [00:22:46.704 – 00:22:49.804] A maximum amount of decentralization should be possible. [00:22:49.804 – 00:23:00.184] Local groups should be prim- the primary ones responsible for carrying the message, and also most importantly, the board of trustees should remain the sole custodians of headquarters monies [00:23:00.184 – 00:23:01.144] and policies. [00:23:01.144 – 00:23:05.804] In 1950, Dr. [00:23:05.804 – 00:23:15.864] Bob had his last appearance at the first international conference in Alcoholics, um, of Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland, and this is

[00:23:15.864 – 00:23:20.464] his farewell speech, and I, I always find this part really interesting. [00:23:20.464 – 00:23:31.004] "Let us also remember to guard that erring member the tongue, and if we must use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance." And a part of me wonders, [00:23:31.004 – 00:23:38.504] um, if this part of his farewell talk was Bob's final attempt to maybe protect Bill from some of his most destructive critics. [00:23:38.504 – 00:23:41.134] What kind of criticism was, uh, Bill facing? [00:23:41.134 – 00:23:43.644] Not just the crit- you know, personally. [00:23:43.644 – 00:23:53.664] Um, I'm always fascinated by how Bill dealt with his critics, um, but a lot of people don't realize just how severe and the kind of language that was being [00:23:53.664 – 00:24:04.084] used towards Bill, um, particularly coming from the orthodox movement, uh, around the changes that he was proposing for the headquarters

[00:24:04.084 – 00:24:05.564] and the creation of this conference. [00:24:05.564 – 00:24:10.264] So here's an example from a 1952 letter from Henrietta to Clarence. [00:24:10.264 – 00:24:20.964] Um, it's hard to read, but sh- in it, this letter she writes that Bill has put himself with the children of darkness, that he has his henchmen and ingratiates [00:24:20.964 – 00:24:23.404] him- himself with those in the dark. [00:24:23.404 – 00:24:27.044] In another letter, Henrietta writes that Bill is demonically possessed. [00:24:27.044 – 00:24:29.994] Dr. [00:24:29.994 – 00:24:40.144] Bob passed away from cancer on November 16th, 1950, but not, um, according to AA Comes of Age, before he finally gave Bill

[00:24:40.144 – 00:24:45.704] and the board his approval to move forward with a trial general service conference. [00:24:45.704 – 00:24:51.994] In N. 1950, a pamphlet titled Your T. Legacy: Will Y. Accept It? [00:24:51.994 – 00:25:02.084] was published by the headquarters, um, I believe it was called AA Publishing at this point, uh, to explain the conference plans and procedures that Bill [00:25:02.084 – 00:25:02.124] W. [00:25:02.124 – 00:25:05.903] and the Class A Trustee B. Smith had developed. [00:25:05.903 – 00:25:15.924] When it was announced that the trial general service conference would happen, the Third L. pamphlet was mailed out to groups and members around the country, the orthodox [00:25:15.924 – 00:25:18.744] movement ramped up disobjections and mailings.

[00:25:18.744 – 00:25:28.884] Royal S., an attorney and member of the orthodox movement, sent the following letter to the foundation board on December 28th, 1950, and Hen- Leonard [00:25:28.884 – 00:25:33.144] Harrison was the Class A trustee who was chairman of the board at this time. [00:25:33.144 – 00:25:43.444] So this is my favorite part of the letter because it describes the conference plan as a witch's brew of elections, assemblies, representatives, delegates, [00:25:43.444 – 00:25:50.744] election by lot, number one panel, number two panel, et cetera, all of which means politics in anybody's vocabulary and understanding. [00:25:50.744 – 00:26:01.024] The complexities of the general service structure and the service manual procedures is a complaint heard to this day, and those of us who have some experience in general service, [00:26:01.024 – 00:26:11.044] especially those by studying the 12 Concepts in World S., which were the 1962 essays, um, created by Bill W., we understand now [00:26:11.044 – 00:26:13.864] that the conference plan that was constructed by Bill W.

[00:26:13.864 – 00:26:18.824] and Bernard S. was intended to reduce politics as much as possible. [00:26:18.824 – 00:26:29.144] Uh, the rotation of panels, um, the witch's brew of elections and assemblies, all of this was created, the Third L. procedure for voting, [00:26:29.144 – 00:26:38.224] was a, a ways to try and reduce the human tendency towards campaigning, uh, the ego involved in, in taking office, et cetera. [00:26:38.224 – 00:26:45.524] But of course, when you just look at it on a paper, it seems like a lot of bureaucracy and over-complication. [00:26:45.524 – 00:26:55.744] This is a letter in 1950 that was mass mailed out, and it was penned directly by Henrietta S., uh, as an appeal directly [00:26:55.744 – 00:27:00.513] to the groups themselves, imploring them to write to the board to stop the trial conference. [00:27:01.132 – 00:27:10.212] And, and she wrote this part, which I think, uh, really reflects a lot about the intention and purpose of the Orthodox movement.

[00:27:10.212 – 00:27:20.332] "The Orthodox can become a quiet, effective group of AAs all over the country, a real grapevine," I, I find that very interesting, "um, [00:27:20.332 – 00:27:30.332] bound by a common purpose, not only of maintaining their sobriety, but of keeping the message of our way of life in its original form and full [00:27:30.332 – 00:27:38.982] of its original power." Um, she quotes Corinthians, um, a- a- a- and, uh, several times. [00:27:38.982 – 00:27:49.272] There's several Bible quotes throughout the letter, and she says that, "There might never n- be any neen- need for schemes of elections of delegates to advise trustees [00:27:49.272 – 00:27:56.492] how to divide money, dispense largesse, make new principles." The new principles she's referring to are the 12 traditions. [00:27:56.492 – 00:28:06.572] "And no need to receive debatable legacies." So starting with leading up to the 1950 international and the first general service conference, [00:28:06.572 – 00:28:16.752] Bill was beginning to talk about the three legacies of AA, adopting the circle and triangle, um, and, and saying that service is that third arm of our,

[00:28:16.752 – 00:28:19.392] uh, our total program of AA. [00:28:19.392 – 00:28:26.772] "To AAs, as this chapter says, you must not boast about men." Um, and so more Bible. [00:28:26.772 – 00:28:31.832] Not much else is known about the efforts and effects of the Orthodox movement. [00:28:31.832 – 00:28:37.072] It was short-lived and did not succeed in its aim to prevent the birth of the general service conference. [00:28:37.072 – 00:28:47.252] But it is one of the first reported examples of AA members calling for a return to the Oxford Group principles and practices of Akron-style AA, of criticizing the general [00:28:47.252 – 00:28:53.532] service structure as being political, overly organized, and antithetical to AA as a spiritual movement. [00:28:53.532 – 00:29:03.532] And we can see, um, in the few statements by the Orthodox movement, we can find both the positive and negative traits that f- future Orthodox groups and

[00:29:03.532 – 00:29:05.392] movements in AA would also share. [00:29:05.392 – 00:29:15.452] Of the positive traits, the Orthodox movement, like future, uh, conservative or Orthodox groups, would remind us in AA to always keep it simple, the importance of keeping [00:29:15.452 – 00:29:25.512] AAs a whole unorganized and decentralized, and supporting local intergroups, the need for local groups to be involved in service efforts to carry the message, and how n- [00:29:25.512 – 00:29:29.972] powerful word of mouth can be, and that in AA, slow change is prudent. [00:29:29.972 – 00:29:32.472] These are really important principles. [00:29:32.472 – 00:29:42.852] And those qualities also work best, I believe, when balanced with, um, the tendency of a g- a generous point of view in AA, [00:29:42.912 – 00:29:53.092] which can be looked at as, you know, along with keeping things simple, we do need to have organized service boards and committees, that with decentralized local

[00:29:53.092 – 00:30:03.392] service, you know, there is a need for general service, a general service, you know, s- service, um, that takes place at a national, international level that local groups [00:30:03.392 – 00:30:06.572] can't accomplish, that cooperate with local groups. [00:30:06.572 – 00:30:16.792] Along with word of mouth, um, from 1937 when we decided to have a book, there was a realization that word of mouth would only get us so far and that we would need to reach [00:30:16.792 – 00:30:18.552] alcoholics where they are. [00:30:18.552 – 00:30:25.152] And along with being slow to change, we also have to remember to change when change is needed. [00:30:25.152 – 00:30:35.052] The tension between an Orthodox desire for simplicity and our Ninth F. Committee's generous need for structure and some organization continue to this day. [00:30:35.052 – 00:30:41.672] Both voices are actually very important to always keep AA in that middle lane that Bill W.

[00:30:41.672 – 00:30:44.572] so often talks about, and especially in the concepts. [00:30:44.572 – 00:30:54.592] So let's talk about another, um, uh, Orthodox figure, um, uh, [00:30:54.592 – 00:30:58.662] who became influential, Clarence S., and his Came to Believe retreats. [00:30:58.662 – 00:31:01.472] In 1966, Clarence S. [00:31:01.472 – 00:31:07.012] began holding weekend Came to Believe retreats, which are still he- held today by his successors. [00:31:07.012 – 00:31:11.352] Over 35 a year are still held to this day. [00:31:11.352 – 00:31:19.691] According to Mitchell K.'s biography, during the late 1950s and early 1960s, Clarence and his second wife, Selma, moved to St.

[00:31:19.691 – 00:31:20.812] Petersburg, Florida. [00:31:20.812 – 00:31:26.772] He settled down, found a new AA home group, and became very active in his local church affairs. [00:31:26.772 – 00:31:31.852] Clarence, at this time, traveled extensively to speak at AA conventions and roundups. [00:31:31.852 – 00:31:34.592] He was a popular but controversial speaker. [00:31:34.592 – 00:31:45.012] In addition to speaking frequently, starting in 1966, Clarence began holding weekend retreats, which he started calling Came to Believe retreats, and they were designed to show attendees [00:31:45.012 – 00:31:55.052] how the program was worked in the Akron-Cleveland groups of the 1940s, focusing on what he considered four stages, uh, of Oxford Group principles. [00:31:55.052 – 00:32:02.651] And so he broke down the 12 steps into these four stages: need, surrender, restitution, construction, and maintenance.

[00:32:02.651 – 00:32:10.272] He divorced, and in 1971, he met and married his third wife, Grace, who was openly theistic, as Mitchell K. [00:32:10.272 – 00:32:11.032] described it. [00:32:11.032 – 00:32:20.252] After his marriage, Clarence became more outspoken about his religious beliefs and spoke openly about Jesus in his AA meetings and shares. [00:32:20.252 – 00:32:24.772] And, uh, uh, hi- a Christian point of view became much more- [00:32:24.880 – 00:32:28.520] Are imp, um, centralized to the Came to Believe retreats. [00:32:28.520 – 00:32:37.460] So the Came to Believe retreats were continued after Clarence's death in 1985 by his sponsees, and grand sponsees, and successors. [00:32:37.460 – 00:32:40.420] As I mentioned, the retreats are held to this day.

[00:32:40.420 – 00:32:50.940] Uh, you can see this was from, uh, a 2020, um, banner ad from their website for a online retreat. [00:32:50.940 – 00:32:53.520] And if you notice, it says, um… [00:32:53.520 – 00:32:57.200] okay, what does it say? [00:32:57.200 – 00:33:03.900] "Experience the 12 steps as the AA founders practiced and taught," and, um, in a matter of hours. [00:33:03.900 – 00:33:14.040] So doing the steps quickly, like over a weekend, or in 12 hours, or over the course maybe of a month, there are different orthodox, um, [00:33:14.040 – 00:33:18.680] groups and figures that, um, that believe in that. [00:33:18.680 – 00:33:27.200] Whether or not, you know, that's accurate, um, not all orthodox groups believe in, in doing the steps quickly, but some do.

[00:33:27.200 – 00:33:29.480] Okay. [00:33:29.480 – 00:33:39.520] Uh, and this is Legacy G., which was written in 2005 by three of Clarence's sponsees, and it shows further how the Came to Believe retreats are centered [00:33:39.520 – 00:33:40.940] in an orthodox lens. [00:33:40.940 – 00:33:51.020] Clarence passed on to his widow, Grace, and to his many sponsees and grand sponsees who are alive today, uh, through his estate, the specific Bible, [00:33:51.020 – 00:33:58.720] Oxford Group, and devotional ideas then enabled, um, according to the Legacy G., the early AAs to succeed so well. [00:33:58.720 – 00:34:03.720] Um, and this Legacy G. is really original. [00:34:03.720 – 00:34:13.940] This is a scan from the 2005 printing of the Came to Believe, uh, Legacy G., where the third step is framed as a submission to the only true living God.

[00:34:13.940 – 00:34:20.300] Um, there are many Christian retreats and fellowships that use the 12 steps, such as Celebrate R.. [00:34:20.300 – 00:34:30.360] Unfortunately, the Came to Believe retreats are not marketed as Christian retreat per se, but rather a way of recovery from alcoholism by working AA's 12 [00:34:30.360 – 00:34:32.520] steps the original way. [00:34:32.520 – 00:34:37.280] Um, so it's a very interesting group that is still around today. [00:34:37.280 – 00:34:43.080] And while it is true that the alcoholic squad meetings of the 1930s that took place at T. [00:34:43.080 – 00:34:45.960] Henry W.' house in Akron, and then later in Dr. [00:34:45.960 – 00:34:52.640] Bob's home, required a surrender before a newcomer could attend, as is described in Dr.

[00:34:52.640 – 00:34:58.640] Bob and the Good O.-Timers, the same book shows that the practice was dropped by the 1940s. [00:34:58.640 – 00:35:08.820] And furthermore, many reputable historians, Ernest K. and Glenn C. among them, made it clear that there was no requirement to surrender to a particular god [00:35:08.820 – 00:35:12.000] to take part in the Ox- Oxford Group meetings. [00:35:12.000 – 00:35:22.460] The unfortunate misrepresentation of AA history by the later Came to Believe retreats is just one example of some orthodox tendencies [00:35:22.460 – 00:35:26.100] to center Christianity in the original AA program. [00:35:26.100 – 00:35:36.160] That's not a quality of all orthodox groups and figures, um, not by far, but there certainly is a very influential, um, trend within [00:35:36.160 – 00:35:44.060] certain orthodox thinkers and to this day that does attempt to center, um, one particular religion in the history of AA.

[00:35:44.060 – 00:35:54.900] Uh, now we're gonna talk about one of my most f- I l- I'm fascinated by Tom P., uh, All A. Anonymous and Gresham's Law in the 1960s. [00:35:54.900 – 00:35:56.220] Tom P. [00:35:56.220 – 00:35:56.860] Sr. [00:35:56.860 – 00:36:00.040] was a copy editor for an advertising firm in Manhattan. [00:36:00.040 – 00:36:05.600] He was the editor of the second edition of the Big Book, the 12 and 12, and AA Comes of Age. [00:36:05.600 – 00:36:11.200] Tom attended his first AA meeting in White P., New York in October 1941. [00:36:11.200 – 00:36:18.240] As an atheist, he struggled with many parts of the AA program, but he did get a lot out of fellowship and meetings.

[00:36:18.240 – 00:36:20.780] Unfortunately, he did not stay sober at first. [00:36:20.780 – 00:36:30.240] He was hospitalized numerous times, received electric shock treatment and during his final hospitalization, after which he had a profound spiritual experience. [00:36:30.240 – 00:36:30.860] Bill W. [00:36:30.860 – 00:36:37.720] became his sponsor in 1946, and Tom stayed sober for the rest of his life with a newfound belief in God. [00:36:37.720 – 00:36:40.960] Uh, in the mid-60s, Tom P. [00:36:40.960 – 00:36:46.900] opened the East R. community in Hankins, New York in partnership with his son, Tom P. [00:36:46.900 – 00:36:48.980] Jr., who was also an AA member.

[00:36:48.980 – 00:36:50.860] These images of Tom Sr. [00:36:50.860 – 00:36:51.340] and Jr. [00:36:51.340 – 00:36:59.840] can be found on the East R. YouTube page, which is still up under their original title, 24 Hour C. TV. [00:36:59.840 – 00:37:09.800] So just to assure anyone, I'm not, um, uh, breaking anyone's anonymity, um, uh, posthumously that did not want to have their images out there. [00:37:09.800 – 00:37:14.840] These were put on, on the, the web by, uh, All A. Anonymous. [00:37:14.840 – 00:37:21.040] East R. was a closed therapeutic community where addicts of all kinds lived together and practiced. [00:37:21.040 – 00:37:22.100] According to Tom P.

[00:37:22.100 – 00:37:22.500] Sr. [00:37:22.500 – 00:37:30.220] and Jr., they practiced a true and original AA program, and they still considered themselves members of AA. [00:37:30.220 – 00:37:40.400] So the creation of All A. Anonymous allowed them to create literature, um, uh, in which they could put forward their interpretation of the AA [00:37:40.400 – 00:37:46.100] program, um, without, you know, without causing conflict within AA. [00:37:46.100 – 00:37:48.680] Um, but they still considered themselves AA members. [00:37:48.680 – 00:37:48.750] They- [00:37:48.988 – 00:37:52.968] Wrote for the AA Grapevine, and they were very influential, both of them.

[00:37:52.968 – 00:38:03.348] Um, you'll hear little mentions of them there and there throughout, like, for, um, in the '60s and early '70s in different Grapevine stories and, [00:38:03.348 – 00:38:04.788] um, et cetera. [00:38:04.788 – 00:38:13.038] So it, it's interesting when I came across their names in just various places and, and suddenly realizing that they didn't leave AA. [00:38:13.038 – 00:38:18.408] They considered themselves AA members as well as, uh, founders of All A. Anonymous. [00:38:18.408 – 00:38:28.548] So along with the 12 steps, um, they also, the All A. program was built on the four absolutes, uh, [00:38:28.548 – 00:38:35.248] the 12 steps, and something called the 10 points, which essentially is a summary of the directions given in the Big Book, Chapter 5. [00:38:35.248 – 00:38:45.307] So, um, they saw the members of Eastridge and All A. Anonymous saw, uh, All A. Anonymous as a more

[00:38:45.308 – 00:38:47.708] pure version of the original S. AA. [00:38:47.708 – 00:38:57.968] At the same time, uh, very interestingly, they were practicing some of the innovations of therapeutic communities, uh, which included 40-hour [00:38:57.968 – 00:39:03.748] long marathon meetings, inspired by Synanon and Daytop. [00:39:03.748 – 00:39:14.668] Um, uh, if you were around last week, you heard me talk a little bit about Synanon and Daytop and thera- com- therapeutic communities and their influence, um, [00:39:14.668 – 00:39:19.288] in, uh, reaching young people and, and helping young alcoholics. [00:39:19.288 – 00:39:23.228] I gave a talk last week about, uh, carrying the message to young alcoholics. [00:39:23.228 – 00:39:33.238] So you know, you c- you can't diminish how influential therapeutic communities and Synanon was to AA in metropolitan areas during this

[00:39:33.238 – 00:39:34.508] time. [00:39:34.508 – 00:39:44.668] Um, so and specifically Daytop V. in Queens, New York, m- very well may have been the inspiration for the creation of Eastridge, which, as I mentioned, was [00:39:44.668 – 00:39:55.188] a therapy community for A- where AA members lived and attempted, um, to practice a more pure version of AA as well as trying to help, uh, specifically [00:39:55.188 – 00:39:58.868] drug addicts, food addicts, sex addicts additionally. [00:39:58.868 – 00:40:03.468] Um, this is a really cool article from the AA Grapevine. [00:40:03.468 – 00:40:06.908] This is one of my favorite AA Grapevines historically speaking. [00:40:06.908 – 00:40:15.248] They had a special section, it was very controversial, called Winds of Change, talking about the different kinds of AA meetings that were developing.

[00:40:15.248 – 00:40:18.348] Um, so this is from what year? [00:40:18.348 – 00:40:19.408] 1968. [00:40:19.408 – 00:40:27.648] And Tom S- Jr., uh, describes his marathon meetings, uh, 10-step marathon meetings at Eastridge. [00:40:27.648 – 00:40:29.768] Um, and at this… [00:40:29.768 – 00:40:38.208] And so again, it's very interesting 'cause they were All A. Anonymous, but in the Grapevine he's referring to them as the Hankins, New York, AA Group, so. [00:40:38.208 – 00:40:48.368] Uh, but here's the emphasis is mine, um, I put into this about, uh, that the process, even though they were doing this very [00:40:48.368 – 00:40:57.128] innovative marathon style, 40 hour long, sometimes they did 12 hour long or 40, um, long meetings, uh, like nonstop.

[00:40:57.128 – 00:41:00.728] Like, maybe you could leave to go to the bathroom, but you were supposed to stay awake. [00:41:00.728 – 00:41:08.348] They described it as spiritual surgery, which harkens back to Soul S., which was a really influential book in the Oxford Group. [00:41:08.348 – 00:41:18.618] Other practices that took place at Eastridge, uh, according to historian Jay S., uh, who interviewed Tom, um, before his death in 2005, [00:41:18.618 – 00:41:26.318] is, uh, the members there had to have a strict vegetarian diet without sugar or processed food, except ice cream was allowed because Tom Sr. [00:41:26.318 – 00:41:28.448] loved to have ice cream every day. [00:41:28.448 – 00:41:37.868] Um, there was a requirement to attend daily, uh, group yoga, uh, Anglican mass and confession, and, uh, it even got to the point where Tom Sr. [00:41:37.868 – 00:41:44.748] had to approve romantic pairings as part of its members seeking guidance on their sexual behavior.

[00:41:44.748 – 00:41:54.548] So as I remember him, uh, talk about group guidance on personal matters being actually a principle and a part of the Oxford Group culture, so we're seeing a little of it come in here. [00:41:54.548 – 00:41:57.588] So A. Addicts A., really very fascinating. [00:41:57.588 – 00:42:00.268] Um, okay. [00:42:00.268 – 00:42:07.568] But probably what I think has had the lasting effect of, uh, Tom P. [00:42:07.568 – 00:42:14.768] and All A. Anonymous is this 1979 article that appeared in the Eastridge m- m- magazine. [00:42:14.768 – 00:42:18.148] It was, like, actually a newsletter, but it was almost like a little magazine. [00:42:18.148 – 00:42:28.148] And a- at this time, it was being sent out, uh, to, um, interested AAs all around the country, and this was a really influential article called Gresham's Law

[00:42:28.148 – 00:42:28.948] and AA. [00:42:28.948 – 00:42:34.208] Um, and it was shared in AA circles around the country because Tom P. [00:42:34.208 – 00:42:34.428] Sr. [00:42:34.428 – 00:42:39.888] was still a very popular AA speaker, uh, even after founding All A. Anonymous. [00:42:39.888 – 00:42:50.088] Um, uh, according to the article, there are three ways to work the program of AA: uh, the S. original way, a medium [00:42:50.088 – 00:43:00.168] way, not so S., not so safe, not so sure, not so good, but still effective, and three, a weak way, and which goes on to say, "Which turns out to be really no way [00:43:00.168 – 00:43:10.228] at all, but a literal heresy, a false teaching, twisting and corruption of what the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous clearly stated the program to be." So

[00:43:10.228 – 00:43:13.018] I think this is actually where the popularization- [00:43:13.136 – 00:43:18.876] Of the phrase "water down AA" or references to watering down or diluting the program come from. [00:43:18.876 – 00:43:23.846] Um, and that metaphor of, like, the tea, right? [00:43:23.846 – 00:43:33.016] Another thing about Gresham's law is that Gresham's law is a monetary principle in economics, and it states out that bad money drives out good. [00:43:33.016 – 00:43:43.156] So in this article, Tom Si- Junior is basically arguing that AA has undergone a progressive weakening because of the dilution and corruption of its original [00:43:43.156 – 00:43:47.636] message, and that's reducing r- contemporary recovery rates. [00:43:47.636 – 00:43:57.756] But more than the orthodox movement or Came to Believe retreats before it, this article, um, uh, coalesces the idea that not only

[00:43:57.756 – 00:44:07.816] is orthodox AA more successful in helping drunks, but that deviation from, uh, the original program, uh, is dangerous to [00:44:07.816 – 00:44:08.656] all of AA. [00:44:08.656 – 00:44:14.656] So it's no longer just a this is effective and, and, you know, we can each mind our own business, right? [00:44:14.656 – 00:44:19.356] Um, and, you know, I'll take care of, you do my program, and you do AA your way. [00:44:19.356 – 00:44:26.836] The idea is that people who deviate from, and people who do AA the wrong way, they're actually weakening all of AA. [00:44:26.836 – 00:44:29.896] And so therefore, you know, that phrase corruption. [00:44:29.896 – 00:44:40.516] It's a corruption or an affection, uh, that is hurting the way someone else is doing their program actually hurts the way my spiritual program is going.

[00:44:40.516 – 00:44:45.956] Um, and this has become a trademark of orthodox discourse moving forward. [00:44:45.956 – 00:44:55.996] Um, any new influences into AA, whether from psychology, treatment industry, or new age spirituality, um, at various points moving forward, they all seem to pose [00:44:55.996 – 00:45:00.036] a threat to AA in the way some, some people talk about it. [00:45:00.036 – 00:45:04.096] Um, he also wrote this, um… [00:45:04.096 – 00:45:08.116] It's a very good book, a very interesting book called An I. to a Great E.. [00:45:08.116 – 00:45:18.176] I also want to say that All A. Anonymous was not the last offshoot of AA to form with the hope of returning to a purer form of Alcoholics Anonymous as the founding members [00:45:18.176 – 00:45:18.626] practiced.

[00:45:18.626 – 00:45:27.336] In 1981, Recovery A. was founded, and according to their website, um, uh, "Aren't other programs solution-focused? [00:45:27.336 – 00:45:27.756] No. [00:45:27.756 – 00:45:37.836] In many other 12-step programs, it is far more common for people to focus on and talk about their problems and behaviors instead of the pioneers' common solution." Um, and [00:45:37.836 – 00:45:48.416] so this describes the how, um, RA started, um, and it was about people talking about the early program and how they thought it worked and how they were having a spiritual experience [00:45:48.416 – 00:45:52.135] and the focus on, um, solution. [00:45:52.135 – 00:45:59.036] You'll hear people talk about, you know, talk, share about the message, not the mess, and I certainly think that that's really important, right? [00:45:59.036 – 00:46:03.496] Um, at the same time, it does harken back to this idea of testimony, right?

[00:46:03.496 – 00:46:13.976] Where we share about all the good things that are happening, uh, so as to inspire others and show gratitude to our higher power, but at the same time, you know, [00:46:13.976 – 00:46:16.336] it's not always authentic for everyone. [00:46:16.336 – 00:46:20.016] So there's a connection to that concept of testimony as well. [00:46:20.016 – 00:46:30.056] Um, let's talk about what's going on as we move into the 1980s and 1990s, uh, because as I said, orthodox groups and [00:46:30.056 – 00:46:34.896] m- and individuals and writing, all of that tends to be a reaction to change. [00:46:34.896 – 00:46:45.176] Um, and so, you know, we talked a little bit about the changes that were happening in the 1950s, a little bit in the 1960s, um, that, um, you know, folks like the orthodox [00:46:45.176 – 00:46:47.836] movement, Clarence and Tom P.

[00:46:47.836 – 00:46:52.376] and, uh, All A. Anonymous was responding to. [00:46:52.376 – 00:47:02.556] So starting in the 1980s and 1990s, we start to see in the general public and in the greater recovery movement, for which AA is a part of, [00:47:02.556 – 00:47:06.376] the feminization and the secularization of 12-step recovery. [00:47:06.376 – 00:47:16.396] Um, one of my favorite academic writers on AA history and culture is Professor T. Travis, whose book, The Language of the Heart, it's not conference approved, [00:47:16.396 – 00:47:24.416] but it is a comprehensive study of the literature and cultural history of the recovery movement, including but not limited to AA. [00:47:24.416 – 00:47:34.455] So she writes in depth about the feminization of recovery literature that was taking place in the '80s and '90s, uh, specifically at Hazelden at this time, and a [00:47:34.455 – 00:47:44.636] lot of this literature and sayings, uh, was making its way into the rooms of AA as, because we are cer- not a micro- we are a microcosm of society,

[00:47:44.636 – 00:47:46.816] and we are part of the greater recovery movement. [00:47:46.816 – 00:47:56.816] And so as I mentioned, you know, the idea of the pop psychology and all these things that were making its way into AA, and in some ways people were concerned were diluting [00:47:56.816 – 00:47:57.246] AA. [00:47:57.246 – 00:48:05.516] Well, in the 1980s and '90s, there was a lot of non-conference approved literature developing with, for women in mind. [00:48:05.516 – 00:48:10.396] Um, in 1982, Each D. a New B. was published. [00:48:10.396 – 00:48:20.796] Uh, Codependent No M., even though it's not about alcoholism, was very popular, uh, and influential, um, in Al-Anon, in AA, and the creation of CoDA, [00:48:20.796 – 00:48:22.426] ACA, et cetera.

[00:48:22.426 – 00:48:26.786] And then The Woman's Way through the 12 Steps was published in 1994. [00:48:26.786 – 00:48:30.416] So there was just an explosion in 12-step literature. [00:48:30.416 – 00:48:37.146] Um, not only was there such an explosion, but even traditional 12, um, traditional non-conference approved literature like Richard- [00:48:37.344 – 00:48:44.784] And Walker's 24 Hours a Day book was revised to make it, um, have language that was more applicable to the women. [00:48:44.784 – 00:48:47.124] So I, I find that really interesting. [00:48:47.124 – 00:48:57.264] So there's examples in Richmond W.'s, um, the little, little black book, Each D. a New, um, excuse me, Richmond W.'s 24 Hours a Day, where the original [00:48:57.264 – 00:49:07.524] text referred to shaving, uh, at one point, and then it was altered in the mid-'80s and updated by Hazelden to refer to

[00:49:07.524 – 00:49:09.544] shaving or putting on your makeup. [00:49:09.544 – 00:49:17.984] And so, um, yeah, Travis, Trish T. views the traditional movement in AA as what she calls the orthodox tendency. [00:49:17.984 – 00:49:26.904] She called it the traditionalist movement, um, in the 1980s and '90s as part of a reaction to this feminization of recovery taking place. [00:49:26.904 – 00:49:36.924] The touchy-feeliness of pop psychology and treatment center jargon making its way into AA meetings was disturbing in part because it threatened the male-centric point of view [00:49:36.924 – 00:49:42.563] of recovery from alcoholism, and the Big Book is written from a male-centric point of view. [00:49:42.563 – 00:49:53.424] Um, also at the same time, secular groups for atheists and agnostics and free thinkers had begun to form in AA starting in 1975 [00:49:53.424 – 00:50:03.724] with Quad A, which stood for Atheists and Agnostics in AA in Chicago, Illinois, and the very popular We Agnostics in Hollywood in 1976.

[00:50:03.724 – 00:50:08.604] And particularly with We Agnostic, chapters of We Agnostic started popping up all over. [00:50:08.604 – 00:50:19.074] So, uh, there was, uh, in the United States in general, there was w- a culture war taking place over the secularization [00:50:19.074 – 00:50:20.964] of American society at the same time. [00:50:20.964 – 00:50:28.424] There were some very famous Supreme C. cases that were, and controversial cases that were dealing, for example, with prayer in school. [00:50:28.424 – 00:50:38.904] Um, the General S. Board, uh, at this time was also receiving numerous requests for literature reflecting the experience, strength, and hope of members with long-term sobriety [00:50:38.904 – 00:50:44.304] who were staying sober with- without a belief in God or even without a conception of a higher power. [00:50:44.304 – 00:50:54.344] Um, this is, uh, just, um, just a list starting in 1975, '76

[00:50:54.344 – 00:51:00.644] of, uh, uh, requests and, um, actions taking place at the General S. Conference. [00:51:00.644 – 00:51:10.784] So starting in 1975, there were requests for, uh, creating a pamphlet, and the trustee, uh, for Atheists, Agnostics, or for the Unbeliever, and the trustee's [00:51:10.784 – 00:51:17.104] literature committee said the pamphlet was vitally needed, but still did not send the agenda topic to the conference. [00:51:17.104 – 00:51:21.224] And so we can see just the dates are the ones that I really want you to notice, right? [00:51:21.224 – 00:51:26.684] Starting in the 1970s, but really a number of things happening in the '80s and '90s up till today. [00:51:26.684 – 00:51:27.964] Mm. [00:51:27.964 – 00:51:38.624] And despite the fact that the requests were coming in from the 1970s, it took until 2018 for AAWS to publish a pamphlet,

[00:51:38.624 – 00:51:41.704] uh, specifically for atheist, agnostic members. [00:51:41.704 – 00:51:47.324] However, in the '90s, non-conference literature was coming out for the unbelievable. [00:51:47.324 – 00:51:57.004] These are two of the most, uh, well-known, um, and, uh, commonly used, uh, secular guides to the 12 steps or interpretations of the 12 steps. [00:51:57.004 – 00:52:07.104] So that's what was going on kinda in AA as a whole leading into this new era of orthodoxy, uh, starting in the 1990s. [00:52:07.104 – 00:52:09.184] Um, and, uh, Dick B. [00:52:09.184 – 00:52:11.264] was a really important figure in this. [00:52:11.264 – 00:52:17.284] He called himself, he self-called, you know, that was his own title, AA's unofficial historian.

[00:52:17.284 – 00:52:24.164] Uh, this is a picture from his social media pages, um, that are now, uh, run by his son. [00:52:24.164 – 00:52:32.444] So according to a biography penned by his son, Dick became a member of Alcoholics Anonymous on April 21st, 1986. [00:52:32.444 – 00:52:38.044] He began his research on the biblical roots of Alcoholics Anonymous in the early 1990s. [00:52:38.044 – 00:52:43.184] In this biography, his son refers to Dick as the unofficial historian of AA. [00:52:43.184 – 00:52:53.244] Um, and you can see that, you know, with Dick's work, it was very important to highlight the role of Christianity, Christian beliefs, and [00:52:53.244 – 00:53:01.384] AA's early success, and showing how important, uh, those Christian beliefs are for getting sober today. [00:53:01.384 – 00:53:08.924] And it talks about his research turned into a major search for AA's highly successful original program.

[00:53:08.924 – 00:53:13.724] So these are some of the topics covered in, in Dick's many works. [00:53:13.724 – 00:53:20.184] I think there's well over 60, but this is a 31 book set sold by his son today. [00:53:20.184 – 00:53:30.544] Um, and acco- uh, according to the website, "The waterfront of important AA history information in these four areas," the original old school [00:53:30.544 – 00:53:41.064] early AA program as seen in Akron, Ohio, some basic Christian principles which found their way into early Akron and Cleveland AA programs, and then the Christian forebearers [00:53:41.064 – 00:53:50.924] of AA, such as the YMCA, Salvation A., and then how Christian leaders and workers in recovery today can, um, enhance their effectiveness. [00:53:50.924 – 00:53:58.794] And this is important because I highlight it by carrying an accurate message about what worked in early AA to addicts who still suffer today. [00:53:58.794 – 00:54:01.224] So

[00:54:01.392 – 00:54:03.592] Oh, they're, they're very active on social media. [00:54:03.592 – 00:54:13.722] Um, so the question is, you know, and this is, you know, things that he published and, and Dick is, you know, if you go into history circles or you are a part of a AA [00:54:13.722 – 00:54:18.492] history group, AA history lovers now is on Facebook. [00:54:18.492 – 00:54:21.672] There's history of Alcoholics Anonymous on Facebook. [00:54:21.672 – 00:54:23.872] Like D. is brought up quite frequently. [00:54:23.872 – 00:54:27.332] His son is actually active on some of these groups as well, you know. [00:54:27.332 – 00:54:37.712] And so, um, the representation of AA history and of our founders as being very Christian-centric, you know, is a very S. point of view, um,

[00:54:37.712 – 00:54:38.672] being put forth. [00:54:38.672 – 00:54:45.972] Um, and according to Dick, this is one of his blogs, "AA was Christian to the core in its origins," which was true. [00:54:45.972 – 00:54:50.612] "AA founders and the first three AAs were Christians in their upbringing," that's true. [00:54:50.612 – 00:54:57.792] "The same three were believers in God and Christians when they turned to God for help and were cured." Um, it's true. [00:54:57.792 – 00:55:02.972] Uh, Bob had a lot of interest in other forms of spirituality though as well. [00:55:02.972 – 00:55:12.992] Um, and Bill a- at one point considered himself, uh, was maybe closer to what we would call a perennialist, um, believing that all religions kind of lead [00:55:12.992 – 00:55:15.852] to the same reality underneath everything.

[00:55:15.852 – 00:55:22.232] Um, so I'm gonna move on. [00:55:22.232 – 00:55:23.212] And then Dick B. [00:55:23.212 – 00:55:33.272] also has, uh, runs kind of a resources for Christian recovery, but listed as AA history and, you know, you have the big book on one side and the Bible on the other. [00:55:33.272 – 00:55:42.772] So I'm gonna move on, but this is an interesting, um, piece of social media, um, where, and this comes up a lot. [00:55:42.772 – 00:55:54.452] Um, this is by his son, Ken B., um, and the question of, "Is AA today succeeding, yes or no?" And [00:55:54.452 – 00:56:00.252] another important o- orthodox historian of this time period connected to Dick B. [00:56:00.252 – 00:56:05.712] is Cl- um, Mitchell K., who, as I mentioned, published the biography of Clarence S.

[00:56:05.712 – 00:56:06.912] in 1999. [00:56:06.912 – 00:56:16.972] Um, like Dick B.'s historical writing, Mitchell's biography also has an orthodox point of view, and it presents AA history hand-in-hand with concerns about the [00:56:16.972 – 00:56:19.532] contemporary effectiveness of the program. [00:56:19.532 – 00:56:29.662] Uh, so returning to the chapter eight, um, Mitchell writes, and he asks this question, I think these are good questions to ask, [00:56:29.662 – 00:56:39.692] "Is the purpose of AA to have the greatest amount of membership, making AA available to all those who claim to want it at any means possible, including the watering down of the steps and the [00:56:39.692 – 00:56:40.732] quality of recovery? [00:56:40.732 – 00:56:44.002] AA as a whole stands at that turning point.

[00:56:44.002 – 00:56:54.172] Growth and change are necessary s- parts of life, however, b- what, to what end?" Dick B.'s, um, opus, his, uh, one of his most well-known, largest, [00:56:54.172 – 00:56:56.572] most researched book is called The Turning Point. [00:56:56.572 – 00:57:06.962] So there is definitely this feeling happening in the '90s, well mid-late '90s, that AA was standing on the brink of a turning point, and we were heading in the wrong dir- direction, [00:57:06.962 – 00:57:08.552] and we were losing effectiveness. [00:57:08.552 – 00:57:18.772] And, and the key was to go back to the original program, you know, the Christian pr- program rooted in the Christian principles of the orthodox group, um, in order to make AA [00:57:18.772 – 00:57:19.712] effective today. [00:57:19.712 – 00:57:24.072] Um, w- now Wally P.

[00:57:24.072 – 00:57:34.492] and James H. in Back to Basics did not push that kind of Christian-centric point of view, but they certainly, um, were orthodox, um, influencers, [00:57:34.492 – 00:57:40.102] one could almost say, um, that are very effective, and there are Back to Basic workshops happening today. [00:57:40.102 – 00:57:47.141] Um, Back to Basics, and so this is where that phrase, where does that phrase back to basics come from? [00:57:47.141 – 00:57:53.892] Well, the phrase back to basics gained traction in the 1990s among orthodox groups and members when Wally P. [00:57:53.892 – 00:58:02.682] began conducting beginners workshops using a program he developed called Back to Basics, where attendees take the 12 steps in four one-hour weekly sessions. [00:58:02.682 – 00:58:08.512] The program is based on Wally P.'s perception of how AA beginners meetings were conducted in the 1940s. [00:58:08.512 – 00:58:12.292] Wally got sober in a 12-step fellowship in 1988.

[00:58:12.292 – 00:58:22.352] He began researching beginners meetings in 1993, and in 1996 he met James H., a self-professed member of the Oxford Group and his contemporary manifestation, [00:58:22.352 – 00:58:23.412] Moral Re-Armament. [00:58:23.412 – 00:58:27.732] In 1997, W- Wally self-published the book Back to Basics. [00:58:27.732 – 00:58:29.532] According to his website… [00:58:29.532 – 00:58:31.712] Oh, sorry. [00:58:31.712 – 00:58:38.912] Um, in 2004, Time M. did an online profile on James H.'s work in the recovery community. [00:58:38.912 – 00:58:43.562] Um, according to the Time M. article, James hit bottom in 1934.

[00:58:43.562 – 00:58:53.712] On D. 12, 1934, a friend took him to an Oxford Group meeting at a YMCA in Frederick, Maryland, and James got sober one day after Bill [00:58:53.712 – 00:58:54.732] W., December 8th. [00:58:54.732 – 00:59:04.912] Oh, sorry, excuse me, December 12th, 'cause Bill W.'s date of sobriety was December 11th, 1934, and he got sober, uh, according, uh, in th- the [00:59:04.912 – 00:59:05.492] Oxford Group. [00:59:05.492 – 00:59:13.752] Uh, Houck says, um, that he, uh, was drawn to the group's teachings, which were based on the four absolutes. [00:59:13.752 – 00:59:23.752] He was really moved by the concept of two-way prayer and the morning quiet time, um, and the concept of restitution. [00:59:23.752 – 00:59:25.322] He also, uh, according to-

[00:59:25.720 – 00:59:35.200] The Wally's website, "James is the only person alive today who has had first-hand knowledge of the material Bill W. and the other Big Book authors used to write the book Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:59:35.200 – 00:59:45.220] Um, on numerous occasions he has stated that the Big Book is Oxford Group literature written for a specific segment of the Oxford Group fellowship." So [00:59:45.220 – 00:59:45.580] Bill W. [00:59:45.580 – 00:59:55.770] lived in New York City, 300 miles away from the Oxford Group meetings in Maryland, but it is possible that he did meet James H. at an Oxford Group meeting in Maryland while he was visiting [00:59:55.770 – 00:59:58.360] Ebby, according to JS. [00:59:58.360 – 01:00:08.760] And that Time M. article ends by saying, "Houck wants to restore the old methods the Oxford Group used, in particular [01:00:08.760 – 01:00:19.200] its spiritual aspects which he believe are stronger and more effective than ones currently practiced in AA." So the cornerstone

[01:00:19.200 – 01:00:29.480] of orthodox groups and movements of the beliefs center is that AA was more effective in the early days, and, and that's [01:00:29.480 – 01:00:39.720] why, um, deviations from, uh, the early Akron M. style of AA and working the AA program, deviations [01:00:39.720 – 01:00:47.000] and, um, adaptions and evolutions over time, the reason why they're dangerous is because they make AA less effective. [01:00:47.000 – 01:00:57.180] And the way that's proven is by saying and telling people AA recovery rates are less successful today than they were in the pioneering days [01:00:57.180 – 01:00:57.840] in Akron. [01:00:57.840 – 01:01:01.880] Uh, there's not a lot of talk about what was taking place in New York, by the way. [01:01:01.880 – 01:01:04.640] Um, it's very focused on the Akron M. style.

[01:01:04.640 – 01:01:11.140] That's a, a very interesting part about orthodox, um, uh, orthodox groups and beliefs overall. [01:01:11.140 – 01:01:14.220] So, um, yeah. [01:01:14.220 – 01:01:20.060] Big Book-focused Akron-style Oxford Group-oriented groups are more effective in keeping alcoholics sober today. [01:01:20.060 – 01:01:22.380] So where does this idea come from? [01:01:22.380 – 01:01:32.400] Well, uh, a lot of the idea of the high statistics and the high recovery rates of early, uh, AA is most likely a result or a partial [01:01:32.400 – 01:01:43.060] result of the forward to the second edition of the Big Book, um, printed in 1955, which states, um, "Of [01:01:43.060 – 01:01:48.100] alcoholics who came to AA and really tried, 5% got sober at once, remained that way.

[01:01:48.100 – 01:01:54.900] 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with AA showed improvement. [01:01:54.900 – 01:01:58.880] Other thousands came." So is this accurate? [01:01:58.880 – 01:02:06.260] And then in Wally P.'s book, it, it says that the Cleveland group argued that they had a 93% success rate. [01:02:06.260 – 01:02:08.520] So is this an accurate… [01:02:08.520 – 01:02:17.300] Well, this is a really wonderful article self-published by Glenn C., Arthur S., and Tom E. [01:02:17.300 – 01:02:28.380] Um, it's available on the William W. website pages, and it's an article entitled Art- Alcoholics Anonymous Recovery R.: Contemporary M. and Misinterpretation. [01:02:28.380 – 01:02:38.680] So they argue that widespread belief that AA is experiencing a 5% or less success rate today as opposed to the 50 to 93% success

[01:02:38.680 – 01:02:42.880] rate it once reputably had in the 1940s and '50s is a myth. [01:02:42.880 – 01:02:52.540] They're saying the high success rate of the pioneering time is a myth, and it's based on invention and inattention to detail rather than fact-based research. [01:02:52.540 – 01:03:02.940] So the authors, um, very well-respected historians, um, and two of them trained, they proceed to prove [01:03:02.940 – 01:03:13.140] their argument using methodical research and multiple independent primary sources, including AAWS's triennial surveys of AA membership. [01:03:13.140 – 01:03:23.140] The authors also point out that the use of pre-screening in early AA was common, and it skewed the reported success rates in [01:03:23.140 – 01:03:24.840] favor of those early groups. [01:03:24.840 – 01:03:35.060] So for example, in Cleveland a prospect had to demonstrate the ability to abstain for up to three months prior to being allowed to attend a regular

[01:03:35.060 – 01:03:35.860] AA meeting. [01:03:35.860 – 01:03:40.900] They would be attending the beginner's workshop, which were considered more classes than meetings. [01:03:40.900 – 01:03:49.050] And so your membership, and when they started counting your sobriety date, was when you finished the class, which could take up to 90 days. [01:03:49.050 – 01:03:55.320] And so the numbers are skewed towards people who have already managed to stay sober for 90 days. [01:03:55.320 – 01:04:05.740] And the 93 success rate is based on people who got sober based on the starting date of 90 days versus people who first came into AA [01:04:05.740 – 01:04:06.540] asking for help. [01:04:06.540 – 01:04:12.710] Even W. P., author of Back to Basics, acknowledges the practice of pre-screening that took place.

[01:04:12.710 – 01:04:16.340] In fact, beginners meetings were often a part of the pre-screening process. [01:04:16.340 – 01:04:24.230] In many areas of the United States and Canada, the newcomer cannot attend regular meetings of AA until he or she completed all 12 steps in the beginners meetings. [01:04:24.230 – 01:04:34.520] As W. points out, many cities issued a sobriety or membership card, this was before the traditions, upon completion of these beginners classes. [01:04:34.520 – 01:04:44.980] Um, as mentioned, it would require maintaining abstinence anywhere from 30 to 90 days, which skewed the statistics, the self, the self-professed statistics. [01:04:44.980 – 01:04:49.409] Another thing for us to talk about, um, you know, is that the idea is that- [01:04:50.008 – 01:04:58.988] AA, Dick B among others, have been quoted as saying that AA's effectiveness today is currently is 1 to 5%, and there's no explanation of where that figure comes from. [01:04:58.988 – 01:05:09.208] In fact, in March 2020, Stanford medicine researchers published a comprehensive analysis of 35 studies that involved 145 scientists

[01:05:09.208 – 01:05:18.888] and 10,000 participants, and they determined that AA was nearly always found to be more effective than other models in achieving abstinence. [01:05:18.888 – 01:05:23.708] This is one of the largest data-driven analysis of its kind taking place. [01:05:23.708 – 01:05:33.808] And so this idea that AA was more effective back then and AA is less effective today, when we look at data and, you know, history is telling an evidence-based story, [01:05:33.808 – 01:05:42.348] there's no- there's actually no way for us to know for sure who, when there was more success, uh, in AA. [01:05:42.348 – 01:05:45.708] We certainly know that we are reaching more people to this day. [01:05:45.708 – 01:05:56.408] Um, Big Book Study guys were really, really influential, um, and some of them had a more orthodox point of view. [01:05:56.408 – 01:06:02.688] Um, I have to say, I love Joe and Charlie's Big Book Study, so I don't want this to seem like a criticism, right?

[01:06:02.688 – 01:06:04.648] Um, there are things I love about them. [01:06:04.648 – 01:06:10.488] There are parts of it, you know, the focus on who is a real alcoholic, some of that I'm not always crazy about. [01:06:10.488 – 01:06:19.368] But, um, you know, I think it's important to mention that Big Book Studies, um, ha- uh, have been really popular, um, lately. [01:06:19.368 – 01:06:22.728] The White Paper is another example from 2010. [01:06:22.728 – 01:06:32.888] It was a, it was published anonymously by parent, a member with long-term sobriety, a popular circuit speaker, although [01:06:32.888 – 01:06:36.768] there is reason to believe that there were actually two authors to this. [01:06:36.768 – 01:06:47.128] Um, um, but regardless, it made its way around, uh, AA circles, was pretty influential, very influential,

[01:06:47.128 – 01:06:48.958] uh, at the general service conference. [01:06:48.958 – 01:06:58.168] You know, even though people didn't talk about it necessarily, quote it directly, um, there was this awareness that people were reading it, and it was influencing people. [01:06:58.168 – 01:07:04.208] It was influencing intergroups and how they approached whether or not to list atheist agnostic groups. [01:07:04.208 – 01:07:14.458] And, um, the paper, you know, is called The White Paper on Matters of ath- AA Atheist A. Groups and Related C., and it specifically says, [01:07:14.458 – 01:07:24.528] "Its purpose was to detail the dangerous deviations and encourage a course of action for eliminating them and returning our fellowship to the pure [01:07:24.528 – 01:07:28.988] spiritual oasis," so this idea of purity, the pure program. [01:07:28.988 – 01:07:39.458] So, um, I'm gonna finish this talk with introducing this idea of generous orthodoxy, which comes from

[01:07:39.458 – 01:07:45.028] Hans F., and from whom I heard about it in a Malcolm G. podcast. [01:07:45.028 – 01:07:51.428] He is a, he's a popular Canadian historian, and he gave a talk in his podcast, Revisionist H.. [01:07:51.428 – 01:07:55.168] The episode is titled Generous O., season one, episode nine. [01:07:55.168 – 01:07:57.568] It is not about AA. [01:07:57.568 – 01:07:59.488] It's about something completely different. [01:07:59.488 – 01:08:09.488] It's about a, um, minister, uh, ordained minister who, uh, marries his, his gay son and is excommunicated from [01:08:09.488 – 01:08:14.028] his church, um, and about the sacrifice that that man made.

[01:08:14.028 – 01:08:24.028] And he, he frames it within Hans F.'s concept of generous orthodoxy and this question of how do we [01:08:24.028 – 01:08:33.868] create change, and reminding us that according to Hans F., orthodox means committed to one's tradition, generous means open to change. [01:08:33.868 – 01:08:37.128] But sh- this is really significant. [01:08:37.128 – 01:08:47.578] Hans F. talked about this concept of generous orthodoxy, um, and he warned that orthodoxy without generosity leads to blindness, and generosity [01:08:47.578 – 01:08:51.228] without orthodoxy is shallow and empty. [01:08:51.228 – 01:08:55.508] Are there examples from AA history of generous orthodoxy? [01:08:55.508 – 01:09:05.508] I spent a lot of time talking about orthodox members, and I did also talk about the changes that were taking place that they were reacting to.

[01:09:05.508 – 01:09:08.108] So are there examples of generous orthodoxy? [01:09:08.108 – 01:09:13.968] And I would say our founders are an amazing example of generous orthodoxy at play in AA. [01:09:13.968 – 01:09:23.008] Um, one of the new books, um, that AAWS has published, the latest book in 30 years, is Our G. Responsibility, one of my favorite books. [01:09:23.008 – 01:09:23.528] I love it. [01:09:23.528 – 01:09:24.608] I highly recommend it. [01:09:24.608 – 01:09:35.148] Um, Bill gi- gave a talk in 1953 to the General S. Conference, and he was speaking about concerns that people had about variations and deviations [01:09:35.148 – 01:09:38.268] to the 12 steps and traditions that some groups were adopting.

[01:09:38.268 – 01:09:48.568] And so what Bill wrote was, "I thought I would spin a little yarn to you about the original variations and then maybe philosophize a bit on this question of whether this program [01:09:48.568 – 01:09:58.768] of ours is frozen as solid as an ice cube or whether there is any elasticity in it or not, whether we are going to get into the business of insisting upon [01:09:58.768 – 01:10:08.868] conformity, whether we are going to get into the business of creating an authority that says these steps and traditions have to be this way." He closed by [01:10:08.868 – 01:10:13.498] saying, "If these steps and traditions do reflect accurately what our experience is…" [01:10:13.796 – 01:10:19.196] The alcoholic will eventually adopt the principles that produce the best results for him and his group. [01:10:19.196 – 01:10:24.096] And if these are correct, uh, and if these are correctly states, he will adopt these. [01:10:24.096 – 01:10:27.296] And if any improvements are to come, well, who knows?

[01:10:27.296 – 01:10:29.136] We may get them from anyone. [01:10:29.136 – 01:10:30.536] I love this essay. [01:10:30.536 – 01:10:40.676] I really encourage you to read it, especially if you have concerns about groups that may be adapting the 12 steps or changing the gender pronouns in the ch- the 12 steps or the 12 [01:10:40.676 – 01:10:41.236] traditions. [01:10:41.236 – 01:10:49.516] It's a really incredible essay, uh, in which Bill talks about how the 12 steps themselves are a variation on the original six step program. [01:10:49.516 – 01:10:59.736] Um, another wonderful example of generous orthodoxy that many of us are familiar with is the story in the 12 steps and 12 traditions, in tradition three, [01:10:59.736 – 01:11:05.616] about a poor devil that came to the Akron group in year two of our fellowship, 1937.

[01:11:05.616 – 01:11:08.436] He wanted to join the Oxford group meeting at T. [01:11:08.436 – 01:11:13.796] Henry's house, where he heard drunks were finding sobriety together. [01:11:13.796 – 01:11:20.316] Um, as Bill writes in the 12 and 12, "He soon proved that his was a desperate case, and that above all he wanted to get well. [01:11:20.316 – 01:11:27.996] But he asked, "Will you let me join your group, since I am the victim of another alcoholism even worse stigmatized than alcoholism? [01:11:27.996 – 01:11:37.116] You may not want me among you, or will you?"" So the alcoholism worse than, that was stigmatized more than alcohol, we know today to have been homosexuality. [01:11:37.116 – 01:11:43.996] Um, Bill gave a talk at the 1968 general service conference saying that the person identified themselves as a sex deviate. [01:11:43.996 – 01:11:54.076] The term sex deviate specifically was used in laws, especially in New E. at that time, in the '30s, to refer to certain, uh, sexual

[01:11:54.076 – 01:11:56.636] acts that homosexual men engaged in. [01:11:56.636 – 01:12:05.956] So to me, it's pretty clear that we are talking about a homosexual man who, um, was known to be homosexual asking for help from the group. [01:12:05.956 – 01:12:15.336] The Oxford group was a Christian P. movement, and it was a huge personal risk to the reputation of the members themselves to fraternize with an admitted homosexual. [01:12:15.336 – 01:12:22.416] If the word got out, no one would have wanted to join their group, and it would mean countless death for other alcoholics. [01:12:22.416 – 01:12:24.876] They went to the group conscience. [01:12:24.876 – 01:12:27.476] It boiled, and people were very concerned. [01:12:27.476 – 01:12:33.976] "Shouldn't we, uh, sacrifice this one to save the many?" And then famously, Bill, uh, Dr.

[01:12:33.976 – 01:12:38.736] Bob turned to the group and said, "What would the master do? [01:12:38.736 – 01:12:42.956] Would he turn this man away?" And the group t- took in this member. [01:12:42.956 – 01:12:52.516] And according to Bill W., that was the beginning of the AA tradition that any man who has a drinking problem is a member of AA if he says so, not whether we say so. [01:12:52.516 – 01:12:58.156] I can't think of a better example from AA history of generous orthodoxy in action than Dr. [01:12:58.156 – 01:13:00.586] Bob asking, "What would the master do? [01:13:00.586 – 01:13:10.736] Would he turn this man away?" Um, you know, so as, you know, we're facing a time of change in AA because of Zoom, [01:13:10.736 – 01:13:20.916] but also because proposed, uh, ch- new literature, supplemental literature that might, um, in the US and Canada where, you know, uh, a plain language translation

[01:13:20.916 – 01:13:22.196] of the big book was approved. [01:13:22.196 – 01:13:24.936] They are working on the beginning of the fifth edition. [01:13:24.936 – 01:13:27.116] This is a time of change in AA. [01:13:27.116 – 01:13:37.136] Um, and you know, one of the things I took away from Malcolm G.'s podcast was he said, "You must respect a body you are trying to heal." [01:13:37.136 – 01:13:46.025] The reason generous orthodoxy is so hard to find is that calls for change often come from folks who have not earned the respect of the orthodox members. [01:13:46.025 – 01:13:56.056] They are n- not seen as coming with the best interests of AA at heart because they have not proven themselves to traditionalists [01:13:56.056 – 01:13:56.896] and old-timers.

[01:13:56.896 – 01:14:04.096] But the good news is that all active AA members do have the best interest and welfare of AA at heart, and we have to remember that. [01:14:04.096 – 01:14:08.556] The reason why is what the long form of tradition clearly demonstrates. [01:14:08.556 – 01:14:13.155] AA must continue to live, or most of us will surely die. [01:14:13.155 – 01:14:23.606] So as we approach the publication of the fifth edition of the big book and a plain language translation of the basic text, over the next few years we will be faced with many opportunities [01:14:23.606 – 01:14:25.916] to practice generous orthodoxy. [01:14:25.916 – 01:14:29.616] And so I'm gonna end this talk with some questions. [01:14:29.616 – 01:14:39.316] How do we as individual members and trusted servants bridge the gap between orthodoxy and generosity, particularly in relation to the future of the big book?

[01:14:39.316 – 01:14:48.676] How can orthodox groups and members who value the principle and practices of early AA become open to change, especially in relation to our literature? [01:14:48.676 – 01:14:56.376] How can those from a generous perspective be respectful and listen better to the concerns of the orthodox? [01:14:56.376 – 01:15:06.376] How can we meet in the middle way that Frey describes as generous orthodoxy, where we are neither blind to the barriers faced by those seeking help, but we continue [01:15:06.376 – 01:15:08.856] to have a message with weight and depth? [01:15:08.856 – 01:15:10.036] Thank you very much. [01:15:10.036 – 01:15:12.336] Oh, Jackie, that was so good. [01:15:12.336 – 01:15:13.656] Please unmute.

[01:15:13.656 – 01:15:15.116] Uh, thank you everyone. [01:15:15.116 – 01:15:15.996] That was Jackie. [01:15:15.996 – 01:15:16.376] Wow. [01:15:16.376 – 01:15:17.736] Fantastic. [01:15:17.736 – 01:15:19.336] Fantastic, Jackie. [01:15:19.336 – 01:15:20.316] Thank you, Jackie. [01:15:20.316 – 01:15:20.346] Good job.

[01:15:20.346 – 01:15:20.776] Wonderful. [01:15:20.776 – 01:15:21.506] Fantastic. [01:15:21.506 – 01:15:23.456] Jackie, we've got a lot to think about. [01:15:23.456 – 01:15:24.896] Oh, that was amazing. [01:15:24.896 – 01:15:25.636] Yeah. [01:15:25.636 – 01:15:26.436] Bravo, Jackie. [01:15:26.436 – 01:15:26.516] Bravo.

[01:15:26.516 – 01:15:27.856] Wonderful. [01:15:27.856 – 01:15:28.156] Wow. [01:15:28.156 – 01:15:29.986] I didn't want that to end, Jackie. [01:15:29.986 – 01:15:30.016] Excellent. [01:15:30.016 – 01:15:30.256] Excellent. [01:15:30.256 – 01:15:31.556] I didn't want that to end. [01:15:31.556 – 01:15:33.916] Oh, it almost didn't.

[01:15:33.916 – 01:15:35.156] It was going and going. [01:15:35.156 – 01:15:36.416] That was, that was so good. [01:15:36.416 – 01:15:37.786] I got a lot of messages yesterday- [01:15:37.893 – 01:15:41.764] incredible, thoughtful, exceptional, amazing people have sent messages here. [01:15:41.764 – 01:15:51.764] And look, before we get into the Q&A, I just wanna apologize again, I know I put in the chat, and Jackie this is nothing to do with your presentation other than I put the wrong time on the flyer, and I didn't even notice it, [01:15:51.764 – 01:15:53.064] and I apologize. [01:15:53.064 – 01:15:56.984] I was using, as an excuse, as an alcoholic excuse, I was using an old template.

[01:15:56.984 – 01:15:57.664] Yeah. [01:15:57.664 – 01:15:59.444] But I will take responsibility for that. [01:15:59.444 – 01:16:01.443] But anyway, this was so good, Jackie. [01:16:01.443 – 01:16:02.444] Thank you ever so much. [01:16:02.444 – 01:16:04.664] I just wanna let you know that we're gonna have a Q&A. [01:16:04.664 – 01:16:06.904] Jackie, 25 minutes or so, is that okay? [01:16:06.904 – 01:16:10.184] Yeah, I'll be here as long as you want, so- Thank you, Jackie …

[01:16:10.184 – 01:16:10.453] I'm all ears. [01:16:10.453 – 01:16:16.644] Great A. I just, just wanna say this, Jackie, before I go, that this is not a discussion session unless Jackie wants it to be. [01:16:16.644 – 01:16:20.164] And Jackie, I just wanna say this, people are sending your email. [01:16:20.164 – 01:16:23.044] They want to be able to get through to you on that email that I put in the chat last week. [01:16:23.044 – 01:16:26.604] Is that, uh, can you put your email in for people to contact you, please? [01:16:26.604 – 01:16:27.064] Yeah. [01:16:27.064 – 01:16:33.744] I, I, I have been busy, so I haven't been able to reply to some of the emails from last week, but I am getting them, and I do- Oh, okay …

[01:16:33.744 – 01:16:34.624] intend on replying. [01:16:34.624 – 01:16:36.194] Info, probably place it there. [01:16:36.194 – 01:16:37.344] I, I put it in there, Jackie. [01:16:37.344 – 01:16:37.764] It's okay. [01:16:37.764 – 01:16:38.284] Don't you worry. [01:16:38.284 – 01:16:40.404] I, it is okay, that email we put in. [01:16:40.404 – 01:16:40.434] Yeah.

[01:16:40.434 – 01:16:40.864] That's okay. [01:16:40.864 – 01:16:41.664] No worries. [01:16:41.664 – 01:16:42.214] I'll do that for you. [01:16:42.214 – 01:16:43.104] Okay. [01:16:43.104 – 01:16:46.124] Um, as you all know, as Stuart is not here, he sends his apologies. [01:16:46.124 – 01:16:47.764] He is 25, uh, coming up. [01:16:47.764 – 01:16:52.764] He is 25 years, but he's gone through a deal with his family, so here you have me for the next 25 minutes.

[01:16:52.764 – 01:16:54.184] Bert L, jump in there, Bert. [01:16:54.184 – 01:16:58.184] Okay. [01:16:58.184 – 01:16:58.594] Uh, thank you very much. [01:16:58.594 – 01:16:59.284] New York City. [01:16:59.284 – 01:17:00.844] Thank you very much. [01:17:00.844 – 01:17:04.064] Yes, I did see the old flyer, and that's why I was late. [01:17:04.064 – 01:17:10.424] If I, if I knew it was earlier, I would've been here earlier, but I'm grateful that I came when I came.

[01:17:10.424 – 01:17:20.694] In answer to your question, for me, the very simple thing is on, found on page 95 in the Big Book, "Never talk down." Uh, [01:17:20.694 – 01:17:24.784] never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral spir- spiritual hilltop. [01:17:24.784 – 01:17:28.584] Simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection. [01:17:28.584 – 01:17:30.664] Show him how they work for you. [01:17:30.664 – 01:17:37.854] Offer him friendship, fellowship, and tell him that if he wants what you, wants what to get you… [01:17:37.854 – 01:17:38.424] Well, excuse me. [01:17:38.424 – 01:17:46.044] If he wants what to get well, you will do anything to help him, and that's as simple as that for me.

[01:17:46.044 – 01:17:47.504] Thank you very much. [01:17:47.504 – 01:17:48.743] Thank you, Bert. [01:17:48.743 – 01:17:49.464] Thanks for that. [01:17:49.464 – 01:17:57.244] So if anyone has any questions they'd like to ask or to bring up a discussion point, please raise your hand. [01:17:57.244 – 01:17:57.844] Thank you. [01:17:57.844 – 01:17:58.843] Thank you, Elise. [01:17:58.843 – 01:18:03.884] Elise, can you mention about this, um, your, your presentation, the Spanish presentation as well while you're here?

[01:18:03.884 – 01:18:04.604] Thank you. [01:18:04.604 – 01:18:05.064] Sure. [01:18:05.064 – 01:18:07.944] Um, I'll, I'll do that first. [01:18:07.944 – 01:18:09.694] Uh, Sunday morning- Thank you … [01:18:09.694 – 01:18:17.884] um, 10:00 AM Central, 11:00 Eastern, and I'll let David translate it to, uh- Yep … [01:18:17.884 – 01:18:18.424] England. [01:18:18.424 – 01:18:21.984] It's 5:00 PM in Spain.

[01:18:21.984 – 01:18:32.183] Uh, I'll be speaking on the differences between the English and Spanish B. Books, and, um, [01:18:32.184 – 01:18:41.004] the problems that those are causing and why we don't have the same outcomes in Spanish groups that we do in English-speaking groups. [01:18:41.004 – 01:18:48.404] Um, and, and this to an end of getting a better translation now that they're working on the fourth edition of the Spanish B. Book. [01:18:48.404 – 01:18:49.584] Thank you, Elise. [01:18:49.584 – 01:18:51.084] I'll put those details in the chat for you. [01:18:51.084 – 01:18:51.504] Thank you. [01:18:51.504 – 01:18:52.544] Thank you.

[01:18:52.544 – 01:18:52.984] Yeah. [01:18:52.984 – 01:18:56.764] Uh, and Jackie, excellent, excellent job. [01:18:56.764 – 01:19:05.484] Uh, I had the pleasure of meeting James H. at a Back to Basics, uh, seminar in the '90s. [01:19:05.484 – 01:19:13.714] Um, and I'm pretty sure we were told that there was a 75% success rate- Hmm … [01:19:13.714 – 01:19:23.744] um, back in the early days, and m- and a lot of that was attributed to the fact that people didn't get to AA until, you know, they really had [01:19:23.744 – 01:19:24.784] hit a bottom. [01:19:24.784 – 01:19:27.204] People were not, you know, sent from courts.

[01:19:27.204 – 01:19:31.084] They, you know, hadn't been sent to rehab because their parents didn't want them at home. [01:19:31.084 – 01:19:41.184] Um, so people, you know, really knew that their lives were unmanageable before they got here, and that is a screening device i- in itself in those days. [01:19:41.184 – 01:19:43.054] Mm-hmm. [01:19:43.054 – 01:19:44.254] Oh. [01:19:44.254 – 01:19:55.064] Um, i, and I wanted to know, uh, uh, your reaction to, um, a, a twist on your last comment about the generous orthodoxy [01:19:55.064 – 01:20:05.604] of the what would the master say, that really that's going back to the earliest Christian principles and, and the very far back tradition, um, [01:20:05.604 – 01:20:14.724] that, you know, m- maybe that's the orthodoxy that they reached for, or I guess the difference would be the orthodoxy of AA and the orthodoxy of the Christian church.

[01:20:14.724 – 01:20:18.724] Um, but thank you for such a great presentation. [01:20:18.724 – 01:20:22.934] Thank you. [01:20:22.934 – 01:20:23.584] Jackie, you okay? [01:20:23.584 – 01:20:23.884] Yep. [01:20:23.884 – 01:20:25.264] Um, yep. [01:20:25.264 – 01:20:26.114] Jackie? [01:20:26.114 – 01:20:30.864] I put into the chat, um, two things just so folks know the original…

[01:20:30.864 – 01:20:38.224] Well, first one is the talk I gave in t- that sparked this in 2019, so that's my sharing sessions. [01:20:38.224 – 01:20:40.644] Um, and then, and it has a lot of the same history. [01:20:40.644 – 01:20:50.864] And then 2000, I put that article, uh, by Glen C, Arthur S, and Tom about, uh, recovery rates, um, uh, um, and, um, [01:20:50.864 – 01:20:56.024] and that I referenced too about whether or not AA was more successful in the early days, so. [01:20:56.024 – 01:20:57.924] Wow, you're a treasure trove. [01:20:57.924 – 01:20:58.844] This is awesome. [01:20:58.844 – 01:20:59.584] This is amazing.

[01:20:59.584 – 01:21:00.204] Mike G. [01:21:00.204 – 01:21:01.914] is in, uh, I think that's Atlanta, Mike [01:21:02.012 – 01:21:03.042] Jackie, can you tell, tell me… [01:21:03.042 – 01:21:03.912] Yeah, go ahead, Mike. [01:21:03.912 – 01:21:04.532] It's all yours. [01:21:04.532 – 01:21:07.832] Jackie's up Oh, thank you, David. [01:21:07.832 – 01:21:17.872] Yeah, I'm, I'm in Atlanta, and, um, I gotta say first off that, um, I couldn't imagine, um, a, a, a better researched and succinct,

[01:21:17.872 – 01:21:22.732] and, I mean, we really covered all the bases as far as, you know, the history of orthodoxy. [01:21:22.732 – 01:21:27.012] And, um, I just, I'm, I, I'm just so pleased that you did that. [01:21:27.012 – 01:21:28.172] This is, this is wonderful. [01:21:28.172 – 01:21:31.432] I'm gonna get the recording and pass it around as much as, as I can. [01:21:31.432 – 01:21:35.792] I appreciate you doing it, and, and all the books that you mentioned, I've, I've got a bunch of them. [01:21:35.792 – 01:21:46.112] I love Our G. Responsibility as well, particularly the part where the, the excerpts from the 1965 Toronto, um, uh, speech where [01:21:46.112 – 01:21:50.712] I think some of that made it into, um, a couple of the, you know, uh, pamphlets.

[01:21:50.712 – 01:21:51.832] I'm an atheist. [01:21:51.832 – 01:22:02.032] Um, I've done this for 34 years as a believer and a non-believer, and, um, I am adamant that what I realize [01:22:02.032 – 01:22:06.132] now is that, um, it, it can be done in a bunch of different ways. [01:22:06.132 – 01:22:12.932] And, and I thought it was so perfect for you to use the phrase "generous orthodoxy." It's just… [01:22:12.932 – 01:22:22.012] Um, my mind is blown for one thing, and because part of what I've tried to get in my head, you know, I go to secular meetings. [01:22:22.012 – 01:22:23.332] Sometimes there's some God bashing. [01:22:23.332 – 01:22:24.112] Not good.

[01:22:24.112 – 01:22:28.612] Um, and, uh, I think some folks have to work that out of their system, I guess. [01:22:28.612 – 01:22:29.352] You know, that's a thing. [01:22:29.352 – 01:22:35.272] But, um, the unity which will keep us together is such, you know… [01:22:35.272 – 01:22:43.632] Uh, you really touched on it and, and I'm, you know, I gotta say, I'm, I'm, I'm a fan, and I definitely wanna, wanna, uh, catch some of your other, uh, recordings and stuff. [01:22:43.632 – 01:22:45.032] So, I thank you very much. [01:22:45.032 – 01:22:47.092] You're just a gift to this fellowship. [01:22:47.092 – 01:22:48.252] Thank you so much, Jackie.

[01:22:48.252 – 01:22:50.552] That's very kind and generous. [01:22:50.552 – 01:22:56.012] Um, one thing that you brought up that I, I just think that pointed out, you talked about unity. [01:22:56.012 – 01:23:06.272] Um, and, uh, it was kind of passed on to me by one of my service sponsors, but I often like to think about this is when thinking about tradition one, that unity is not conformity, [01:23:06.272 – 01:23:06.952] right? [01:23:06.952 – 01:23:10.052] Um, and so I've, I've mentioned this before. [01:23:10.052 – 01:23:15.692] We have disagreements, and we don't have to be afraid of disagreements, uh, around how to carry the message. [01:23:15.692 – 01:23:25.732] What keeps us unified, you know, is that our, we share the common primary purpose of wanting to help the suffering alcoholic, and we can disagree

[01:23:25.732 – 01:23:31.212] as individual groups, um, about the how to do that, right? [01:23:31.212 – 01:23:37.032] Um, and that is, you know, um, the prerogative of each individual group and each individual member. [01:23:37.032 – 01:23:47.072] Um, so, um, yeah, I've, I've, um, I, I, I always like to bring that up, too, because sometimes one of the, you know, our, you [01:23:47.072 – 01:23:54.332] know, things that people can talk about is that, like, well, different groups are doing so many different things, and we're using different kinds of literature. [01:23:54.332 – 01:24:01.692] Um, like, you know, that we're not unified anymore, and I think it's our purpose that unites us, and that Bill W. [01:24:01.692 – 01:24:11.772] over and over again in the traditions w- warn, you know, warned us about part- you know, that AA membership does not require conformity to any belief, conformity to even the 12 steps [01:24:11.772 – 01:24:12.452] themselves.

[01:24:12.452 – 01:24:14.292] So, thank you. [01:24:14.292 – 01:24:18.172] Thank you, Jackie, and thank you, Mike G. [01:24:18.172 – 01:24:19.712] in Atlanta, and Gloria C. [01:24:19.712 – 01:24:21.592] Gloria, remind me where you're coming in from again. [01:24:21.592 – 01:24:22.292] Hello, Gloria. [01:24:22.292 – 01:24:22.832] Nice to see you. [01:24:22.832 – 01:24:23.112] Oh, hi.

[01:24:23.112 – 01:24:24.012] Philadelphia, right? [01:24:24.012 – 01:24:24.862] Hi, David. [01:24:24.862 – 01:24:26.572] Thank you for, for chairing. [01:24:26.572 – 01:24:32.152] And, and, uh, Jackie, thank you so much for, uh, y- all your hard work. [01:24:32.152 – 01:24:33.092] It was excellent. [01:24:33.092 – 01:24:34.652] Um, okay. [01:24:34.652 – 01:24:39.452] Going back to the part which was a little bit early in your talk.

[01:24:39.452 – 01:24:44.292] I'm in Pennsylvania, by the way, outside Philadelphia. [01:24:44.292 – 01:24:45.832] Thank you, Gloria. [01:24:45.832 – 01:24:53.092] Um, real- really approve of the conference. [01:24:53.092 – 01:24:53.952] I mean, is this… [01:24:53.952 – 01:24:56.392] Did he write something down? [01:24:56.392 – 01:25:02.192] 'Cause a lot of the time, I'm gonna go off my video because my computer's acting up. [01:25:02.192 – 01:25:12.212] Um, but a lot of the time, I m- I've been coming here for a while, and I c- I keep getting, um, thought, uh, uh,

[01:25:12.212 – 01:25:20.192] facts that were, um, you know, etched in my mind as true, and they keep getting overturned. [01:25:20.192 – 01:25:21.872] And, and I, I'm okay with that. [01:25:21.872 – 01:25:22.971] I mean, I wanna learn. [01:25:22.971 – 01:25:29.332] But, but, um, did he really actually approve of the conference before he died? [01:25:29.332 – 01:25:30.412] Oh. [01:25:30.412 – 01:25:31.312] And if- That's… [01:25:31.312 – 01:25:32.072] Yeah.

[01:25:32.072 – 01:25:33.832] Very interesting question, huh? [01:25:33.832 – 01:25:39.912] Um, so you're asking did Bob actually approve of the conference? [01:25:39.912 – 01:25:40.992] Is that your question? [01:25:40.992 – 01:25:43.412] Uh, makes me wonder, you know? [01:25:43.412 – 01:25:53.352] Uh- Or did he, do, did, d- did Bill say that just to appease Akron or, I mean- Um- I, I'd like to… [01:25:53.352 – 01:25:56.362] I, I want my eyes wide open. [01:25:56.362 – 01:26:06.112] Well, you know, we definitely have to, this is where we, you know, uh, you know, take Bill's word for it about his final talk with Bob.

[01:26:06.112 – 01:26:12.912] 'Cause according to Bill, that's when Bill- Bob said yes to the conference. [01:26:12.912 – 01:26:16.522] D- is there anywhere in writing where Bob is like, "I think this is a good idea"? [01:26:16.522 – 01:26:16.852] No. [01:26:16.852 – 01:26:24.512] There's lots of letters, uh, from Bill to Bob outlining all the reasons why we need a conference. [01:26:24.512 – 01:26:25.812] They're very powerful. [01:26:26.400 – 01:26:36.420] Um, some of my favorite parts of the letters I've read from Bill to Bob talk about, like, you know, you know, "Will P. and Papa finally let AA grow up?" [01:26:36.420 – 01:26:38.180] Like, that kind of language.

[01:26:38.180 – 01:26:43.600] Um, I do believe that Bob was okay with a trial conference. [01:26:43.600 – 01:26:45.179] I mean, that's just my belief. [01:26:45.179 – 01:26:49.440] I, I, I, I, I don't think, uh… [01:26:49.440 – 01:26:52.920] You know, as we said, Bill is not a historian, Bill is a storyteller. [01:26:52.920 – 01:26:58.570] Um, e- now there's nowhere in writing that Bob didn't want the conference, right? [01:26:58.570 – 01:27:05.700] 'Cause B. never, um, liked to disagree with Bill, um, publicly, you know? [01:27:05.700 – 01:27:07.760] Um, Bob had a lot of loyalty to Bill.

[01:27:07.760 – 01:27:15.500] But, um, you know, I, I guess the question, you know, part of the question is does it matter, right? [01:27:15.500 – 01:27:17.760] Um, essentially. [01:27:17.760 – 01:27:19.120] Um, so I don't know. [01:27:19.120 – 01:27:21.240] Well, Like, of course, I've had my doubts too. [01:27:21.240 – 01:27:25.060] I've often wondered is it possible that that's just something Bill made up. [01:27:25.060 – 01:27:35.240] Um, um, but, you know, if the opposition with the trustees was so S., I, you know, I, I, I don't think Bob by himself [01:27:35.240 – 01:27:38.320] would have convinced the trustees on their own either.

[01:27:38.320 – 01:27:44.640] So, um, I'm not gonna give a good answer with that. [01:27:44.640 – 01:27:48.220] You're, you're about 75% sure. [01:27:48.220 – 01:27:54.440] No, I, I'm just, I d- I'm choosing to believe Bill's story in AA Comes of Age. [01:27:54.440 – 01:28:04.740] And, um, it makes sense to me that it, there's something about it that makes sense that, you know, Bob might have been more in favor of a trial, letting AA decide [01:28:04.740 – 01:28:05.280] for itself. [01:28:05.280 – 01:28:15.280] But, you know, I think, yeah, as a historian, we only have Bill's side, uh, Bill's, um, Bill's to say it, and that could be some really fun research for someone [01:28:15.280 – 01:28:16.820] to really do and investigate.

[01:28:16.820 – 01:28:18.520] Yeah. [01:28:18.520 – 01:28:19.500] Thank you so much. [01:28:19.500 – 01:28:19.990] Great job. [01:28:19.990 – 01:28:21.900] Thank you, Gl- thank you, Gloria. [01:28:21.900 – 01:28:23.740] Um, going up to New York again. [01:28:23.740 – 01:28:24.820] Bert is jumping back in. [01:28:24.820 – 01:28:25.400] Go on, Bert.

[01:28:25.400 – 01:28:26.410] Go on, go on first. [01:28:26.410 – 01:28:36.700] I forgot, I forgot to ask this question because it was, it's used a lot, it's said a lot, and, uh, up here in the East or whatever you wanna call it, [01:28:36.700 – 01:28:41.540] and that phrase is 90 meetings in 90 days. [01:28:41.540 – 01:28:51.900] Although there's no mandate or no handcuffs or anything like that, but they do [01:28:51.900 – 01:28:54.880] suggest that 90 meetings in 90 days. [01:28:54.880 – 01:29:00.080] So was that perhaps where when you said that earlier, would that be where it come from? [01:29:00.080 – 01:29:06.340] Yous remember you said that about the, uh, they had to make the 90 meetings or whatever the case Oh, yeah.

[01:29:06.340 – 01:29:07.890] Yeah, yeah. [01:29:07.890 – 01:29:10.080] I mean, it could've come from the beginners group. [01:29:10.080 – 01:29:12.860] Um, some people think that it came from… [01:29:12.860 – 01:29:22.600] I don't think, no, it wouldn't have come from the beginners group because if that wasn't 90 meetings in 90 days, that was, uh, weekly meetings for 90 days, right? [01:29:22.600 – 01:29:23.740] Like, for three months. [01:29:23.740 – 01:29:23.870] Yeah. [01:29:23.870 – 01:29:24.080] Right?

[01:29:24.080 – 01:29:27.940] Like, you had to have daily abstinence up to 90 days at a time. [01:29:27.940 – 01:29:28.879] Okay, okay. [01:29:28.879 – 01:29:31.200] Um, so- Yeah. [01:29:31.200 – 01:29:32.080] Yeah … [01:29:32.080 – 01:29:32.110] yeah. [01:29:32.110 – 01:29:36.880] So the saying c- you know, I've heard that the saying is attributed to treatment, the treatment industry. [01:29:36.880 – 01:29:38.960] Mm-hmm.

[01:29:38.960 – 01:29:49.420] Um, but, uh, certainly it would not, you know, we would not have had that phrase until there were daily meetings being held in most metropolitan cities, which I would say probably [01:29:49.420 – 01:29:54.840] realistically didn't happen till the '60s, um, is my guess. [01:29:54.840 – 01:30:02.640] So- Jackie, can, can I just say that I heard, and of course it's just this, that it was the judge was gonna give people 90 days in jail or 90 days in AA. [01:30:02.640 – 01:30:03.540] What truth is in that? [01:30:03.540 – 01:30:04.640] Is there any truth in that? [01:30:04.640 – 01:30:14.980] I, uh, this is, I'm sure someone's done really good research on this, and so what I would say would be interesting is I would, like, if I were to research this, I would start looking into the AA grapevines. [01:30:14.980 – 01:30:19.099] I would start to look for the first example of that in the AA grapevine.

[01:30:19.099 – 01:30:28.460] Um, and then yeah, I might look at some of the ear- places where there were the first court mandates and see if there was anything there. [01:30:28.460 – 01:30:30.230] But- Thank you … [01:30:30.230 – 01:30:31.740] I have not done any research on it. [01:30:31.740 – 01:30:38.540] But I do know that contemporary orthodox groups often object to the phrase 90 meetings in 90 days. [01:30:38.540 – 01:30:47.630] Um, you know, the saying meters, "Meeting makers make it." Um, in my Back to Basics group we used to say, "Meeting makers don't make it." You need to do- Oh, okay. [01:30:47.630 – 01:30:47.631] Yeah … [01:30:47.631 – 01:30:49.120] do the 12 steps, right?

[01:30:49.120 – 01:30:51.460] So, you know, that's the thing. [01:30:51.460 – 01:31:01.800] Like we said, a lot of slogans and a lot of, um, customs, uh, have developed organically within AA groups, but some of them have also been influenced [01:31:01.800 – 01:31:04.100] by outside things. [01:31:04.100 – 01:31:10.400] Um, and, and that's not to me a good or a bad thing, it's just reality, right? [01:31:10.400 – 01:31:20.840] Like, we have been influenced by the treatment industry, we've been influenced by, um, Hazelden, we've been influenced by things in psychology and medicine, [01:31:20.840 – 01:31:25.140] and we've been influenced by the culture wars and things that are happening politically. [01:31:25.140 – 01:31:26.880] We've been influenced by social media.

[01:31:26.880 – 01:31:33.340] Like, we are a human society of people, and we're not insulated from the greater society, so. [01:31:33.340 – 01:31:34.440] Oh, thank you. [01:31:34.440 – 01:31:35.260] Thank you, Bert. [01:31:35.260 – 01:31:36.040] Thank you. [01:31:36.040 – 01:31:38.430] Well, we're going over to Australia now, and we've got Dan T. [01:31:38.430 – 01:31:39.500] Hello, Dan. [01:31:39.500 – 01:31:44.420] Dan, you are muted.

[01:31:44.420 – 01:31:47.980] For some unknown reason someone has muted you, Dan, and again, it's not me. [01:31:47.980 – 01:31:49.420] There we go. [01:31:49.420 – 01:31:49.660] There, there. [01:31:49.660 – 01:31:50.150] Yeah, we can- [01:31:50.288 – 01:31:50.648] You're done? [01:31:50.648 – 01:31:51.348] You're good? [01:31:51.348 – 01:31:51.828] Yep G. on you.

[01:31:51.828 – 01:31:52.168] Thanks. [01:31:52.168 – 01:31:52.748] Thanks, David. [01:31:52.748 – 01:31:53.868] Thanks, Jackie. [01:31:53.868 – 01:31:55.447] That, that Shay burger he was right. [01:31:55.447 – 01:31:57.488] Two, two weeks in a row. [01:31:57.488 – 01:31:58.868] Absolutely. [01:31:58.868 – 01:32:01.008] A, a, absolute cracker of a presentation.

[01:32:01.008 – 01:32:08.308] And I, and I heard mentioned there somewhere in your presentation this morning a, a term called cherry-picking. [01:32:08.308 – 01:32:10.338] And, uh- Mm … [01:32:10.338 – 01:32:12.098] and, uh, and, and it… [01:32:12.098 – 01:32:22.188] There's a, there's a, it's, uh, another one that I like if, uh, cherry-picking take things out of context leads to another term of we've always done it this way. [01:32:22.188 – 01:32:32.268] And, and your presentation this morning shows that, uh, we may have always done it this way for a while, but, uh, if we're gonna, if we're gonna grow, we're [01:32:32.268 – 01:32:34.088] gonna have, gonna have to ch- keep changing. [01:32:34.088 – 01:32:44.328] But, uh, the one, one question that I've got is tradition three, uh, in, in the, that 12, 12 wheels

[01:32:44.328 – 01:32:46.928] is, you know, on the AA calendar it was year two. [01:32:46.928 – 01:32:52.148] It might've been, uh, year two on the AA calendar, but am I to have taken… [01:32:52.148 – 01:33:02.188] That I heard you correctly that that actually took place at, uh, an Oxford Group meeting at, uh, in, uh, O- Well, it was the [01:33:02.188 – 01:33:05.248] alcoholic squad of the Oxford Group meeting that was meeting at T. [01:33:05.248 – 01:33:06.198] Henry's house- Oh … [01:33:06.198 – 01:33:07.278] in 1937. [01:33:07.278 – 01:33:13.968] Because, uh, the Akron group didn't separate from the Oxford Group till nine- what is it, was it 1939, I think I said?

[01:33:13.968 – 01:33:15.888] Um, or maybe '41. [01:33:15.888 – 01:33:16.118] Yeah. [01:33:16.118 – 01:33:16.928] Maybe '41. [01:33:16.928 – 01:33:19.348] Um, anyway, uh, I have to look at the slide again. [01:33:19.348 – 01:33:23.548] But, yeah, it wa- year two, so year one would've been 1935. [01:33:23.548 – 01:33:24.588] Year two would've been… [01:33:24.588 – 01:33:25.868] Oh, sorry, year…

[01:33:25.868 – 01:33:29.078] Was it 1937, year one- Yeah … [01:33:29.078 – 01:33:29.508] year two? [01:33:29.508 – 01:33:34.288] Yeah, it could have been late '36 as well, so I, I have to look back. [01:33:34.288 – 01:33:43.628] Uh, you know where I got 1937 from is I think I identified who the poor devil was, and he got sober in 1937. [01:33:43.628 – 01:33:50.928] So, um, uh, I'll share this part of the story where I became interested. [01:33:50.928 – 01:33:55.228] I, this question came up to me, is why did this person tell the group, Do- Dr. [01:33:55.228 – 01:33:57.908] Bob's group, that he was homosexual, gay?

[01:33:57.908 – 01:34:00.048] Why would he tell them he was a sex deviate? [01:34:00.048 – 01:34:10.108] Because there were a lot of members coming into AA who were gay, who didn't share that information later on, and so it made me question if this was a person who perhaps was [01:34:10.108 – 01:34:12.688] known as, uh, to be homosexual. [01:34:12.688 – 01:34:19.928] Maybe there, that he was, um, so maybe he was unmarried perhaps, or, you know, for whatever reason, right? [01:34:19.928 – 01:34:26.028] Like, um, he wouldn't have posed a danger to the group if people didn't know he was gay in Akron. [01:34:26.028 – 01:34:36.028] So, uh, I looked at the Frank A. list and compared, and I looked through the Frank A. list to see all the folks who got sober in 19- in year two, [01:34:36.028 – 01:34:36.928] 1937.

[01:34:36.928 – 01:34:47.288] And, and, uh, I read their Big Book, some of their Big Book stories, I researched them, and there was only one person who was unmarried at the time, um, [01:34:47.288 – 01:34:47.888] Lloyd T. [01:34:47.888 – 01:34:53.658] And his story is really interesting 'cause it's the rolling stone in the first edition. [01:34:53.658 – 01:35:01.928] And Lo- so this is all conjecture, and I have no secondary sources, but, um, Lloyd T.'s, um… [01:35:01.928 – 01:35:12.148] There's a lot of interesting coded language in Lloyd T.'s story 'cause he talks about being unmarried, talks about joining the Merchant M., getting into vices [01:35:12.148 – 01:35:15.908] in different ports and cities, um, and things like that. [01:35:15.908 – 01:35:23.408] And so a, a, a lot of that language, um, and then coming home and, and taking care of his mother and is still unmarried.

[01:35:23.408 – 01:35:33.408] That's not to say that all unmarried people who take care of their mother back then were gay, nor that were sailors who got into vices were all gay, but it certainly [01:35:33.408 – 01:35:35.828] is, um, possible, right? [01:35:35.828 – 01:35:37.448] And it, it seems to be a S.. [01:35:37.448 – 01:35:39.428] So that's where I got 1937 from. [01:35:39.428 – 01:35:46.037] It might've been late 1936, if you consider year one being '35, '36, year two- Yeah … [01:35:46.037 – 01:35:47.218] '36, '37. [01:35:47.218 – 01:35:47.848] Yeah.

[01:35:47.848 – 01:35:52.048] Yeah, well, well, so Bill, Bill reckoned year two on the AA calendar. [01:35:52.048 – 01:36:02.088] And, and, uh, as you say, you know, without any definitive, uh, documentation or whatever, when you have a look at the rest of the candidates that could, could line up for that, that [01:36:02.088 – 01:36:06.037] were kicking around, look at personal stories in the earlier editions- Yeah … [01:36:06.037 – 01:36:06.987] you're probably on the money. [01:36:06.987 – 01:36:08.388] Thanks, thanks very much, Jackie. [01:36:08.388 – 01:36:08.498] Yeah. [01:36:08.498 – 01:36:09.068] Thanks, David.

[01:36:09.068 – 01:36:09.677] Great meeting you. [01:36:09.677 – 01:36:10.588] What I'd like to do- Thanks … [01:36:10.588 – 01:36:21.177] is go to Cleveland and do some research and see, um, 'cause I said da- uh, in my research, deviate, the term deviate refers to de- is, is an actual term that references, [01:36:21.177 – 01:36:25.088] um, a certain sexual act with your bum. [01:36:25.088 – 01:36:28.808] Um, and so it's a very specific term. [01:36:28.808 – 01:36:35.988] So when people are like, "Well, a, a sexual deviant doesn't necessarily mean gay," I'm like, "No, deviate meant gay." You know, a gay man back then. [01:36:35.988 – 01:36:39.807] And so if he's a sexual deviate, he might have had a criminal…

[01:36:39.807 – 01:36:44.908] He might have been arrested and have it in his record, which would be why- Yeah, yeah … [01:36:44.908 – 01:36:46.828] he felt the need to tell the group about it. [01:36:46.828 – 01:36:48.808] So, uh, that would be a way- Ah … [01:36:48.808 – 01:36:52.768] to try and, and do this research into, um, into that. [01:36:52.768 – 01:36:57.668] So there's ways to find documentation, but, uh, you know, I, if… [01:36:57.668 – 01:37:05.008] I wish I had an unlimited, um, budget that I could travel around to intergroups, and cities, and public records, and research. [01:37:05.008 – 01:37:14.298] But if there's any folks near Cleveland or in the Cleveland area, finding out more about Lloyd T.'s, um, background, Lloyd T.'s background would be interesting because-

[01:37:14.436 – 01:37:22.096] Audrey B., who wrote The History of Gay P. in AA, also agrees with me that it seems most likely that it was Lloyd T. [01:37:22.096 – 01:37:27.726] He's also described as someone who stayed with the program and helped many other alcoholics. [01:37:27.726 – 01:37:28.526] So L. T. [01:37:28.526 – 01:37:31.116] is also one of the alcoholics who stayed sober. [01:37:31.116 – 01:37:35.056] He ended up staying with the Oxford Group, but he was a sponsor of Clarence S. [01:37:35.056 – 01:37:36.016] And Lloyd T. [01:37:36.016 – 01:37:38.336] worked with a lot of people, just like Clarence S.

[01:37:38.336 – 01:37:39.406] worked with a lot of people. [01:37:39.406 – 01:37:44.336] So he also matches other parts of the tr- of the story as well. [01:37:44.336 – 01:37:46.316] Thanks, Jackie. [01:37:46.316 – 01:37:48.056] Thank you, Jackie, for that. [01:37:48.056 – 01:37:48.716] Thank you, Dan. [01:37:48.716 – 01:37:49.296] Good to see you. [01:37:49.296 – 01:37:53.936] We're going back over to the US- United States now with Hugh H., Third L. Group.

[01:37:53.936 – 01:37:54.586] Hello, Hugh. [01:37:54.586 – 01:37:55.646] Hi. [01:37:55.646 – 01:37:56.076] Hello. [01:37:56.076 – 01:37:56.876] I'm Hugh. [01:37:56.876 – 01:37:57.996] I'm an alcoholic. [01:37:57.996 – 01:38:00.956] Gosh, I love your presentations, Jackie. [01:38:00.956 – 01:38:03.076] Get so much out of them.

[01:38:03.076 – 01:38:09.056] About the 90 in 90, there was a early member in Cleveland named Warren C. [01:38:09.056 – 01:38:10.436] Mm-hmm … [01:38:10.436 – 01:38:16.596] who a transcript of, of his, of his, well, one of his recordings appears in Dr. [01:38:16.596 – 01:38:24.836] Bob and the Good O.-Timers that said, "Clarence made me go to the home of one of the newer members every night for three months." Mm. [01:38:24.836 – 01:38:32.396] "And they had nine or 10 people talking to me." Then he had to read the Big Book, and then he got to go to his first meeting. [01:38:32.396 – 01:38:43.156] So it was, in that particular case, well, I'm not saying that was where 90 in 90 came from, but in that particular cl- case, that was 90, [01:38:43.156 – 01:38:45.256] uh, 90 meetings in 90 days.

[01:38:45.256 – 01:38:50.336] So I, I suspect it's from the treatment centers myself, but… [01:38:50.336 – 01:38:51.416] Yeah. [01:38:51.416 – 01:38:52.916] It's, it's interesting. [01:38:52.916 – 01:39:02.916] Um, I think it's prob- uh, but I suspect it's from a treatment center that was, you know, connected, uh, with maybe that had members of AA involved in it because that [01:39:02.916 – 01:39:07.076] was something that happened, you know, starting in the '60s, '70s, you know. [01:39:07.076 – 01:39:10.996] I mean, you know, um, C., you know, ran a, a recovery center. [01:39:10.996 – 01:39:21.056] Uh, a lot of folks started recovery centers or houses trying to help them and, you know, they were 12-step facilitation or, you know, they weren't associated with AA, but they

[01:39:21.056 – 01:39:22.196] used AA principles. [01:39:22.196 – 01:39:29.116] So, um, the thing that's really interesting about 90 in 90, so much in AA is about trial and error- Yeah … [01:39:29.116 – 01:39:30.325] and, and what works. [01:39:30.325 – 01:39:35.056] And so it's like the trial and error period didn't end with the publishing of the Big Book. [01:39:35.056 – 01:39:37.136] That's why we have the 12 and 12, right? [01:39:37.136 – 01:39:39.126] That's why Bill published the 12 and 12- Mm-hmm … [01:39:39.126 – 01:39:42.076] in '52, because they were things that they had learned.

[01:39:42.076 – 01:39:45.456] They had learned, for example, that you can do an inventory of your assets. [01:39:45.456 – 01:39:49.996] They had learned, you know, that's something that's not in the, the, the Big Book. [01:39:49.996 – 01:40:00.066] But, um, I s- it's interesting that, you know, medically too, 90 days is also significant for, um, alcoholics, um, because of [01:40:00.066 – 01:40:05.276] post-PAWS, post acute withdrawal symptoms, which start to kick in around that time as well. [01:40:05.276 – 01:40:15.276] So it to me makes sense historically that people started to notice that those first 90 days were significant, and I don't think it's just some random injection from the treatment centers. [01:40:15.276 – 01:40:18.176] I think that is probably something that was noticed. [01:40:18.176 – 01:40:28.186] That's why beginners workshops maybe took a course over 90 days as well, that that was a really important early period in someone's sobriety

[01:40:28.186 – 01:40:29.976] that they started to realize. [01:40:29.976 – 01:40:34.156] So it's, it's interesting, but- As far as, as far, as far as Dr. [01:40:34.156 – 01:40:38.506] Bob approving of the conference, I don't think we'll ever know the actual- Yeah … [01:40:38.506 – 01:40:39.876] answer to that question. [01:40:39.876 – 01:40:43.066] But it, it said, I've read that, uh, Dr. [01:40:43.066 – 01:40:48.256] Bob, that Bill, shortly after that 1950 convention, went to see Dr. [01:40:48.256 – 01:40:55.016] Bob and told him that the trustees had all agreed to the c- conference, and that was why Dr.

[01:40:55.016 – 01:40:57.156] Bob agreed to it. [01:40:57.156 – 01:40:57.596] Yeah. [01:40:57.596 – 01:40:58.165] To a trial. [01:40:58.165 – 01:41:06.336] The, the last letter actually written by Bob that I could find was, like, a year earlier and, and he didn't sound too keen on it at all. [01:41:06.336 – 01:41:06.716] No. [01:41:06.716 – 01:41:13.356] He wasn't keen on it, but he didn't disapprove of it because he never would publicly speak aga- disagree with Bill. [01:41:13.356 – 01:41:13.945] Right.

[01:41:13.945 – 01:41:15.636] He had a lot of loyalty to Bill. [01:41:15.636 – 01:41:23.976] Um, and yeah, I, I, I was just ruminating on this last night about Tradition F. a little bit. [01:41:23.976 – 01:41:31.656] But, you know, the thing that's really interesting, like, imagine if our fellowship was founded by two people who lived in the same city, you know. [01:41:31.656 – 01:41:32.836] Because a reality… [01:41:32.836 – 01:41:34.925] No, seriously, imagine if Bill and Bob- Oh, yeah … [01:41:34.925 – 01:41:35.815] would've lived in the same city. [01:41:35.815 – 01:41:38.036] Would they have gotten along quite the way they did?

[01:41:38.036 – 01:41:46.136] Um, and I think it's so interesting that this whole idea of e- autonomy, right, uh, it was there from the very beginning. [01:41:46.136 – 01:41:56.276] Because as soon as Bill went to New York and, and Bob, they were doing their own thing, and they were using different variations on Oxford Group principles, and New York started [01:41:56.276 – 01:41:58.656] really moving more in a psychological direction. [01:41:58.656 – 01:42:08.736] Like, as I mentioned, you know, last week, Akron was doing inventori- moral inventories based on the seven deadly sins, very rooted in Biblical scripture, and New York was m- you know, [01:42:08.736 – 01:42:15.316] moving away from that and, and more interest in psychology and the idea of resentments and fears and natural instincts, right? [01:42:15.316 – 01:42:20.696] That's all the psychology of the time making its way into the practices of the New York group. [01:42:20.696 – 01:42:24.816] So even the idea that there's one true way to work the AA program, right?

[01:42:24.816 – 01:42:28.736] Uh, uh, you know, like, Bill and Bob, autonomous, doing different things. [01:42:28.736 – 01:42:28.805] Oh. [01:42:28.805 – 01:42:35.716] And they n- they tolerated each other, and they didn't criticize what each other was doing in each other's cities, you know? [01:42:35.716 – 01:42:36.376] So… [01:42:36.376 – 01:42:38.426] Bill makes clear that there w- [01:42:38.544 – 01:42:41.544] Many ways to do the t- steps Well, yes, yeah. [01:42:41.544 – 01:42:45.664] The best way to work the program is the way that works for you, Bill famously said.

[01:42:45.664 – 01:42:45.754] Right. [01:42:45.754 – 01:42:55.764] And just, just on that, a- and, and s- step 12 says carry this message, so how, how do we, how do we square that then if, if it is the 12 step is saying have another spiritual resembling he says we [01:42:55.764 – 01:42:57.384] try and pr- carry this message. [01:42:57.384 – 01:42:59.004] It specifically says this message. [01:42:59.004 – 01:43:02.384] So is this message is- What is this message? [01:43:02.384 – 01:43:02.804] Oh, for a while it's just that. [01:43:02.804 – 01:43:03.014] Right.

[01:43:03.014 – 01:43:03.124] Right. [01:43:03.124 – 01:43:03.724] Okay. [01:43:03.724 – 01:43:03.934] Yeah. [01:43:03.934 – 01:43:08.044] So if you take a literal view of the text, right? [01:43:08.044 – 01:43:11.474] So here we are in the world of, like, textual interpretation. [01:43:11.474 – 01:43:19.844] If you take a literal view of the text, then the sentence, and you just look at that sentence, this message is a spiritual awakening as a result of the steps. [01:43:19.844 – 01:43:23.424] If you take a generous interpretation, right?

[01:43:23.424 – 01:43:24.024] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. [01:43:24.024 – 01:43:24.964] You know, look at the tradition. [01:43:24.964 – 01:43:30.014] Tradition five, each group has but primary purpose to carry its message- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … [01:43:30.014 – 01:43:31.304] to the alcoholic who suffers. [01:43:31.304 – 01:43:34.824] So then the tradition five says that each group gets to define. [01:43:34.824 – 01:43:36.364] So this is a question I have for you. [01:43:36.364 – 01:43:38.484] What is the message of Alcoholics Anonymous?

[01:43:38.484 – 01:43:38.534] Mm. [01:43:38.534 – 01:43:45.704] Is it one alcoholic helping another, you know, staying sober together, or is it having a spiritual awakening as a result of the 12 steps? [01:43:45.704 – 01:43:50.884] Because there are AA groups that have focus on one more than the other. [01:43:50.884 – 01:43:53.624] Mm. [01:43:53.624 – 01:43:54.244] This is great. [01:43:54.244 – 01:43:54.503] Right? [01:43:54.503 – 01:43:55.124] This is great.

[01:43:55.124 – 01:43:56.083] Yeah, yeah, go ahead. [01:43:56.083 – 01:43:58.684] Yeah, if you're not finished, we can move on, but if you are- Yeah … [01:43:58.684 – 01:43:59.284] Hugh, you're good, Hugh. [01:43:59.284 – 01:44:00.114] Thank you, Hugh, for that. [01:44:00.114 – 01:44:01.324] This is great. [01:44:01.324 – 01:44:04.064] He, B- Bill L. in Oregon, or Oregan. [01:44:04.064 – 01:44:05.164] I always get this wrong, Bill.

[01:44:05.164 – 01:44:07.564] Oregan. [01:44:07.564 – 01:44:08.484] Oregan. [01:44:08.484 – 01:44:10.824] Uh, thank you, Jackie. [01:44:10.824 – 01:44:15.314] Um, Hugh stole my, uh, my one- Thought? [01:44:15.314 – 01:44:15.954] … [01:44:15.954 – 01:44:17.784] one topic I was gonna bring up. [01:44:17.784 – 01:44:20.724] That's on page 169 in the big book.

[01:44:20.724 – 01:44:27.024] The, uh, um, you know, the reference to Clarence telling, you know, 90-day visits. [01:44:27.024 – 01:44:37.024] Uh, uh, and, uh, early in my sobriety, it was an orthodoxy AA came up to me and said, "You young people with your 90 meetings [01:44:37.024 – 01:44:37.484] and… [01:44:37.484 – 01:44:38.684] That's not in a big book. [01:44:38.684 – 01:44:48.703] Get that out of here." You know, we're back to basics and, and, uh, I had to point out it was Clarence, uh, talk about back to basics, who came up with [01:44:48.704 – 01:44:49.724] this idea, you know. [01:44:49.724 – 01:44:56.024] Um, my other question is, uh, Kevin H.'s documentary.

[01:44:56.024 – 01:45:06.024] Um, the, one of the things that hit me, uh, in that documentary, and I hadn't seen it, uh, I saw it years ago, and, uh, [01:45:06.024 – 01:45:07.584] I still have a question about it. [01:45:07.584 – 01:45:17.644] Toward the end, there's a white-haired gentleman who says that an issue of the grapevine, you know, the winds of ti- uh, uh, the winds of [01:45:17.644 – 01:45:20.744] change got him fired as editor. [01:45:20.744 – 01:45:22.244] Uh, who was that? [01:45:22.244 – 01:45:23.164] Was that Tom P. [01:45:23.164 – 01:45:23.884] or?

[01:45:23.884 – 01:45:25.104] No, no, no. [01:45:25.104 – 01:45:25.464] Tom P. [01:45:25.464 – 01:45:27.124] was not the editor at all. [01:45:27.124 – 01:45:28.604] Oh, that is juicy. [01:45:28.604 – 01:45:30.604] I, I have to look that up again because- Yeah. [01:45:30.604 – 01:45:38.984] Come, it comes with the current- I would not be surp- they were letters for the whole year angry about that one edition, right? [01:45:38.984 – 01:45:39.694] Mm-hmm.

[01:45:39.694 – 01:45:45.024] Which is, you know, again, interest- yeah, just m- and there were massive objections to Tom P.'s story. [01:45:45.024 – 01:45:49.404] Uh, yeah, people were really mad about it, and he, that would make sense that he would get… [01:45:49.404 – 01:45:54.444] I'm not surprised, and I have to look that up because that is amazing. [01:45:54.444 – 01:45:55.444] Okay. [01:45:55.444 – 01:45:56.724] Very interesting. [01:45:56.724 – 01:45:56.974] Thank you. [01:45:56.974 – 01:45:57.144] Right?

[01:45:57.144 – 01:46:02.284] And that's just printing letters about what groups were actually doing. [01:46:02.284 – 01:46:04.744] It wasn't, I don't think it was an endorsement. [01:46:04.744 – 01:46:06.524] I mean, that's what the grapevine is. [01:46:06.524 – 01:46:10.004] It's the voice of AA as it's happening right now. [01:46:10.004 – 01:46:18.264] Um, and so yeah, 1968, massive changes happening in the culture of AA and causing a contro- internal controversy. [01:46:18.264 – 01:46:20.224] Thank you. [01:46:20.224 – 01:46:21.464] Tha- thanks, Bill.

[01:46:21.464 – 01:46:22.224] Good to see you. [01:46:22.224 – 01:46:22.934] Um- Yeah … [01:46:22.934 – 01:46:27.024] well, now we're going to Chicago with, um, Patrick O'Donnell. [01:46:27.024 – 01:46:28.924] Boston. [01:46:28.924 – 01:46:29.214] Chicago. [01:46:29.214 – 01:46:30.104] I almost said Chicago. [01:46:30.104 – 01:46:31.484] We're going to Boston.

[01:46:31.484 – 01:46:32.064] Patrick. [01:46:32.064 – 01:46:35.304] Hi, my name's Pat. [01:46:35.304 – 01:46:35.924] I'm an alcoholic. [01:46:35.924 – 01:46:36.994] Thank you very much, Jackie. [01:46:36.994 – 01:46:39.324] It was very good to, uh, to hear this. [01:46:39.324 – 01:46:41.924] I'm, I'm from the Wide R. of Sobriety group. [01:46:41.924 – 01:46:51.944] Uh, and, um, I've met, uh, Hoke, and I've met Wally and all of these other people, and I have people that

[01:46:51.944 – 01:46:53.544] were friends with Richmond W.. [01:46:53.544 – 01:46:54.264] Mm. [01:46:54.264 – 01:47:02.284] And, um, I, my, when I first saw the, the advertisement that we were gonna do this thing on the orthodox thing, I was a little bit to… [01:47:02.284 – 01:47:09.504] 'Cause I, I, my basic feeling, and possibly my sponsors have been a little bit too, they have not been too sober. [01:47:09.504 – 01:47:19.684] Uh, they've been sober a long time, but, uh, sometimes I see O- Oxford, uh, orthodox groups a- actually telling people [01:47:19.684 – 01:47:24.364] that they're doing it wrong, and I really get bothered by that because I came from a very… [01:47:24.364 – 01:47:26.404] I've been sober for over 40 years.

[01:47:26.404 – 01:47:30.944] I, I, you know, 90 meetings in 90 days, they didn't tell me to do that. [01:47:30.944 – 01:47:33.624] They told me to join AA on a daily basis. [01:47:33.624 – 01:47:35.164] How the hell do you do that? [01:47:35.164 – 01:47:41.684] In a city like Boston, I can do 90 meetings in 90 days, and that's good sober living practices. [01:47:41.684 – 01:47:51.774] You know, I didn't have the capacity to read all of this lovely literature for my first 60 days, but I could go to a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, join with people who didn't [01:47:51.774 – 01:47:54.364] drink, listen to how they had stayed sober. [01:47:54.364 – 01:48:01.264] And so, and then I also didn't, I don't like having Henrietta S. and going ahead and dictating stuff.

[01:48:01.264 – 01:48:02.474] There are principles of- [01:48:02.792 – 01:48:08.692] What forms a group, and one of them it says, "All members have to be alcoholics," and we know that she wasn't an alcoholic. [01:48:08.692 – 01:48:13.652] So I'm saying, "What the hell is she doing in this party anyway?" It's, uh, you know, I, I put, I just… [01:48:13.652 – 01:48:15.452] That goes into the basket, you know? [01:48:15.452 – 01:48:18.192] Uh, we call it the wastebasket here in my neighborhood. [01:48:18.192 – 01:48:27.792] And, uh, but I, I, I enjoy some of this stuff, but I think that what we have to be careful of is that we don't tell them that this is what they did. [01:48:27.792 – 01:48:31.212] Because we know that we don't know what they did, you know?

[01:48:31.212 – 01:48:32.092] Mm-hmm. [01:48:32.092 – 01:48:42.112] And, uh, you know, I'm a, a Richmond W. guy as I, as I say in, in his January 15th reading, and I think he was one of the most brilliant guys, and he wasn't an [01:48:42.112 – 01:48:43.112] orthodox guy. [01:48:43.112 – 01:48:46.592] And he said, "They point the dir- these… [01:48:46.592 – 01:48:49.612] The 12 steps in the book are like guideposts. [01:48:49.612 – 01:48:53.052] They point the direction on which we have to go. [01:48:53.052 – 01:48:57.252] But each member of the group has to find his own best way of living the program.

[01:48:57.252 – 01:49:07.302] We don't do it all exactly alike, whether by quiet times in the morning, meetings, working with others, or spreading the word, we have to learn how to live the [01:49:07.302 – 01:49:12.182] program." And has AA become my new way of living my life? [01:49:12.182 – 01:49:14.292] And I say yes, and that's enough. [01:49:14.292 – 01:49:15.632] I think that there is a… [01:49:15.632 – 01:49:19.672] It, it's nice, but this is not a constitutional law program we're in. [01:49:19.672 – 01:49:22.071] This is Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:49:22.071 – 01:49:26.512] And, uh, Jim and I were exchanging some stuff recently.

[01:49:26.512 – 01:49:36.572] Um, I'm afraid that they're gonna go ahead and, uh, and, uh, have some conference meeting that's gonna say, "Let's remove page 164 where it says more will be revealed." [01:49:36.572 – 01:49:38.672] You know? [01:49:38.672 – 01:49:39.022] Mm-hmm. [01:49:39.022 – 01:49:44.712] God will constantly disclose to you more, you and I more, as we go along this path. [01:49:44.712 – 01:49:46.412] And it's a wide road. [01:49:46.412 – 01:49:49.992] We have guidelines to stay within, and that's staying sober. [01:49:49.992 – 01:49:58.152] The proof of the pudding is if you're still in that same line heading the same way, but what lane you're in doesn't make any difference, and that's the problem.

[01:49:58.152 – 01:50:01.052] I don't like having p- somebody go ahead… [01:50:01.052 – 01:50:10.232] If some kid feels comfortable doing 90 meetings in 90 days, and some clown comes up and tells him he's doing it wrong, I worry about that. [01:50:10.232 – 01:50:13.672] I worry about that person telling him that, to be honest with you. [01:50:13.672 – 01:50:15.732] Um, it's, it's, it's my… [01:50:15.732 – 01:50:24.012] I grew up in a very permissive AA family, going back to the mid-1950s, and some of those people are still around. [01:50:24.012 – 01:50:24.572] Yeah. [01:50:24.572 – 01:50:30.572] And believe me, they weren't doing it on, on some, and I hate to use the political, some right-wing angle.

[01:50:30.572 – 01:50:35.252] They were, they were, they were people trying to help each other, and they lived sobriety and they're still living it today. [01:50:35.252 – 01:50:38.292] Carol is, Carol is 65 years sober now. [01:50:38.292 – 01:50:39.042] Wow. [01:50:39.042 – 01:50:40.132] Okay? [01:50:40.132 – 01:50:42.192] It's a wide open road. [01:50:42.192 – 01:50:45.942] But I really appreciate all the, all the work you've done and all the digging you've done. [01:50:45.942 – 01:50:46.312] Thank you.

[01:50:46.312 – 01:50:47.532] It's my pleasure. [01:50:47.532 – 01:50:48.732] Thank you for sharing. [01:50:48.732 – 01:50:58.812] Um, I, I just wanted to respond to one thing, you know, you said about th- you know, like, the fear that one day they are going to, you know, um, take away a page in the book. [01:50:58.812 – 01:51:00.532] And I mean, my… [01:51:00.532 – 01:51:10.701] I personally believe that the, uh, the ma- the first the m- the first 164 pages will always be available and there in, you know, for us, [01:51:10.701 – 01:51:18.772] and will be probably still the main text for years to come no matter what other literature may appear, supplemental literature or whatnot. [01:51:18.772 – 01:51:23.912] But the thing to me that's important, and I am a DCMC, so, uh, a- a- I, I…

[01:51:23.912 – 01:51:25.692] You know, in the general service structure. [01:51:25.692 – 01:51:35.832] But, you know, the they is, you know, the conscience of, of AA, and great, we do need more groups to have GSRs and participate because that is a problem. [01:51:35.832 – 01:51:43.132] Uh, as mentioned from the very beginning of the orthodox movement, there w- there has been a distaste for the general service structure. [01:51:43.132 – 01:51:50.672] And so the problem is you're getting, you know, the conference is making these decisions based on the voice of, you know, the conscience of the groups. [01:51:50.672 – 01:51:52.432] But are they hearing all the groups? [01:51:52.432 – 01:51:59.332] M- more and more orthodox groups are having, and a lot of them ha- in- had more participation in the 1980s. [01:51:59.332 – 01:52:01.132] That was a good thing that happened.

[01:52:01.132 – 01:52:11.192] But I, you know, I always try to hold back when not, you know, when thinking about, like, they are doing something, whether that they is New York or they is the board or they is the conference, because it's us, [01:52:11.192 – 01:52:11.852] right? [01:52:11.852 – 01:52:12.972] It's, it's… [01:52:12.972 – 01:52:23.092] We're so lucky to live, to have, um, this c- to me, conference because the alternative was a board of trustee making all the decisions in perpetuity, [01:52:23.092 – 01:52:26.012] and then appointing themselves in per- perpetuity. [01:52:26.012 – 01:52:33.192] So, you know, it's trusting in that group conscience and, and trying to get out of the, the us versus them mindset. [01:52:33.192 – 01:52:34.232] But I, I understand.

[01:52:34.232 – 01:52:37.192] I, I'm not trying to diminish at all the fear that you have, right? [01:52:37.192 – 01:52:37.292] No. [01:52:37.292 – 01:52:47.432] It's just something that's come up in conversations recently, um, when, when hearing g- groups or people saying they as if there's a, an us [01:52:47.432 – 01:52:52.812] versus they when it comes to the board or the o- general service office or the conference, you know? [01:52:52.812 – 01:52:57.972] Because I do believe they're really trying to serve us, and that we do have an upside down triangle. [01:52:57.972 – 01:52:59.482] Well, in- But I really, really loved your comments … [01:52:59.482 – 01:53:07.492] in AA Comes of Age, Bill W. even refers to his fear of the two-headed papacy and the College of Cardinals.

[01:53:07.492 – 01:53:07.862] Yes. [01:53:07.862 – 01:53:15.132] And I think we got rid of two, but we got the other one still hanging around because they just, they cancels things. [01:53:15.132 – 01:53:17.142] They cancel- Yeah … [01:53:17.142 – 01:53:18.052] pamphlets. [01:53:18.052 – 01:53:19.832] They, um, but we're not gonna do that here. [01:53:19.832 – 01:53:21.032] But I mean- Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:53:21.032 – 01:53:21.452] No, it's a good discussion …

[01:53:21.452 – 01:53:24.072] we, we can become t- we can become top-heavy. [01:53:24.072 – 01:53:26.212] We can become top- Yeah, absolutely … [01:53:26.212 – 01:53:26.652] heavy [01:53:26.800 – 01:53:28.620] We're a society of people, right? [01:53:28.620 – 01:53:31.760] And we don't always pra- But I do believe we're self-correcting also. [01:53:31.760 – 01:53:32.959] So, like- Yeah … [01:53:32.959 – 01:53:34.260] um, you know, uh, yeah.

[01:53:34.260 – 01:53:36.080] But absolutely, we're humans, you know? [01:53:36.080 – 01:53:39.760] And the people on the board and at the office and our delegates are… [01:53:39.760 – 01:53:45.440] We're all human beings, and it's amazing that it works as well as it has for as long as it has, you know? [01:53:45.440 – 01:53:46.960] So, yeah. [01:53:46.960 – 01:53:49.540] Thank you, guys, for keeping it that way. [01:53:49.540 – 01:53:52.319] We'll have the meeting after the meeting for those who wanna get more. [01:53:52.319 – 01:53:54.720] Uh, Bert L., do you want to, uh, come back in?

[01:53:54.720 – 01:53:55.700] Okay. [01:53:55.700 – 01:54:03.599] Yes, I just wa- I just wa- See, I wasn't gonna say anything, but now that you mention it, uh, Jackie, I'm also DCMC for Queens C.. [01:54:03.599 – 01:54:04.500] Yay. [01:54:04.500 – 01:54:07.169] So I'm aware of what you're talking about. [01:54:07.169 – 01:54:13.260] But what I would like to try to clear up with you, everybody, is that I don't believe they're changing anything in the Big Book. [01:54:13.260 – 01:54:14.559] It's all about translation. [01:54:14.559 – 01:54:15.700] Yeah.

[01:54:15.700 – 01:54:17.460] That's what's going on. [01:54:17.460 – 01:54:19.100] They're not changing anything. [01:54:19.100 – 01:54:29.440] It's just that, uh, the, the thing is that people who are not understanding what they're reading, and for some of us who went through the Big Book with folks, we went to dictionaries [01:54:29.440 – 01:54:30.400] and we spent time. [01:54:30.400 – 01:54:37.550] I'm not doubting anybody for not doing that, but the point is what's going down is translation. [01:54:37.550 – 01:54:43.140] They're gonna change some words or whatever to mean, so people can maybe understand it better. [01:54:43.140 – 01:54:46.780] But other than that, from what I understand, they're not changing anything.

[01:54:46.780 – 01:54:47.480] Okay? [01:54:47.480 – 01:54:54.260] So, and as right now, there is, and I wasn't gonna say this, but I'll say it now, there is a conference going on right now. [01:54:54.260 – 01:54:55.820] Mm-hmm. [01:54:55.820 – 01:54:56.500] Okay? [01:54:56.500 – 01:54:58.840] There's a conference going on right this minute. [01:54:58.840 – 01:55:05.260] So you know, the, you know, and our group had a se- You know, it's a whole bunch of stuff going on. [01:55:05.260 – 01:55:08.750] But I'm like you, uh, Patrick, I, I keep it simple.

[01:55:08.750 – 01:55:16.860] With God's grace, I've been sober now 31 years, and with His grace and mercy, Janu- or July 19th, it'll be 32. [01:55:16.860 – 01:55:20.060] So I don't worry about all the rest of the stuff. [01:55:20.060 – 01:55:21.190] You know what I mean? [01:55:21.190 – 01:55:26.550] I love the fellowship, I love the people, and I don't get into none of that stuff, but I like learning. [01:55:26.550 – 01:55:27.660] Thank you for letting me share. [01:55:27.660 – 01:55:28.900] Just for today, Bert. [01:55:28.900 – 01:55:29.800] Thank you very much.

[01:55:29.800 – 01:55:30.300] Yeah. [01:55:30.300 – 01:55:30.310] Yeah. [01:55:30.310 – 01:55:31.380] And we got Ry- Ry K. [01:55:31.380 – 01:55:32.480] c- In F.. [01:55:32.480 – 01:55:33.070] Ry, you're down… [01:55:33.070 – 01:55:33.910] How are you doing? [01:55:33.910 – 01:55:35.240] You're upside down there for a second.

[01:55:35.240 – 01:55:35.870] Hello, Ry. [01:55:35.870 – 01:55:36.400] I wanna put my hand down. [01:55:36.400 – 01:55:37.340] I wanna put my hand down. [01:55:37.340 – 01:55:38.900] I'll put it down for you, Bert. [01:55:38.900 – 01:55:40.220] I got it, got it, I got it. [01:55:40.220 – 01:55:41.820] Ry, it's all yours. [01:55:41.820 – 01:55:42.510] Jackie's up.

[01:55:42.510 – 01:55:44.180] Jackie, thank you. [01:55:44.180 – 01:55:44.820] God bless. [01:55:44.820 – 01:55:46.420] Appreciate your presentation. [01:55:46.420 – 01:55:47.540] Awesome information. [01:55:47.540 – 01:55:54.740] Um, according to S..net, it was, uh, there's an article on there about the grapevine, and that was Tom S. [01:55:54.740 – 01:55:56.180] in 1967. [01:55:56.180 – 01:56:06.440] He wrote an article about, uh, the winds, um, the winds of change in 1967, and violated the sixth

[01:56:06.440 – 01:56:11.120] and 10th tradition, and that induced him to get fired. [01:56:11.120 – 01:56:15.280] Um, so I think that's who they're talking about. [01:56:15.280 – 01:56:19.000] But as far as the, uh, you know, I mean, it is in Dr. [01:56:19.000 – 01:56:22.280] Bob about the 90 meetings in 90 days, and it's also in Dr. [01:56:22.280 – 01:56:24.480] Bob and the Good O.-Timers about Dr. [01:56:24.480 – 01:56:28.120] Bob mentioned there's an easy way to do this and a hard way to do this. [01:56:28.120 – 01:56:35.760] The easy way to do this is through the, is through the program, the Big Book, and the hard way i, is just not drinking, going to meetings.

[01:56:35.760 – 01:56:45.800] But, uh, so as far as what you were saying about, you know, the program, uh, this message in the Big Book is the first 11 [01:56:45.800 – 01:56:46.780] steps, you know? [01:56:46.780 – 01:56:51.300] Carry, uh, AA's, um, fifth, what did you say? [01:56:51.300 – 01:56:52.120] Fifth tradition. [01:56:52.120 – 01:56:56.540] Um, well, that ties into page 17 in the Big Book. [01:56:56.540 – 01:56:59.700] That says there's a solution, and that I need both parts, right? [01:56:59.700 – 01:57:02.240] I need the fellowship and I need the program.

[01:57:02.240 – 01:57:06.350] And if I have a mix of the two, uh, I should do that, right? [01:57:06.350 – 01:57:07.300] I should make it, right? [01:57:07.300 – 01:57:10.420] And God's blessed me many years. [01:57:10.420 – 01:57:13.340] But, um, so I think it's both. [01:57:13.340 – 01:57:21.280] I think it's, it's, it's, we need the, the spiritual awakening through the program, and we need all the tools- Ry, uh, we seem to have lost you for a second. [01:57:21.280 – 01:57:21.660] Ry? [01:57:21.660 – 01:57:24.140] Is it only me or is it everyone else can hear Ry?

[01:57:24.140 – 01:57:26.620] Yeah, his audio changed a little bit. [01:57:26.620 – 01:57:28.420] Ry, your audio's just changed a little bit. [01:57:28.420 – 01:57:29.800] Do you wanna go back on that, please? [01:57:29.800 – 01:57:32.640] Try again, Ry. [01:57:32.640 – 01:57:34.120] Can you hear me now? [01:57:34.120 – 01:57:34.400] Yep. [01:57:34.400 – 01:57:35.380] All good now, Ry.

[01:57:35.380 – 01:57:35.720] Yeah. [01:57:35.720 – 01:57:36.670] All right. [01:57:36.670 – 01:57:36.780] All right. [01:57:36.780 – 01:57:38.240] So it, so it is both. [01:57:38.240 – 01:57:46.860] It's, it's the, the fellowship and, and the meetings, the home groups, rules, and it's the, the, the spiritual awakening through the program. [01:57:46.860 – 01:57:51.860] But the question I had was wou- would you be able to repost that info in the chat? [01:57:51.860 – 01:57:58.520] 'Cause, uh, you, you said you posted it to your previous link, but nothing came out in the chat.

[01:57:58.520 – 01:58:02.740] Are you talking about the, the talk I gave? [01:58:02.740 – 01:58:04.120] Yes, please. [01:58:04.120 – 01:58:04.940] Uh- Yes, please … [01:58:04.940 – 01:58:05.140] uh, yeah. [01:58:05.140 – 01:58:05.950] I'll put it in the chat. [01:58:05.950 – 01:58:09.220] The previous talk you mentioned that, that you were gonna put in the chat. [01:58:09.220 – 01:58:10.400] Yeah, it never came through.

[01:58:10.400 – 01:58:11.820] Which one, the… [01:58:11.820 – 01:58:13.320] Where did you recover your outcome? [01:58:13.320 – 01:58:15.500] Is that one? [01:58:15.500 – 01:58:17.580] I'll put Generous O. back in. [01:58:17.580 – 01:58:23.080] If you're on a, um, if you're on a, a tablet or cellphone, you won't be able to download it. [01:58:23.080 – 01:58:24.120] Mm. [01:58:24.120 – 01:58:25.420] Um, just so you know.

[01:58:25.420 – 01:58:31.040] Um, but I'll- If, if- My email is in there, and I'm happy to send it to you. [01:58:31.040 – 01:58:33.379] Um, you know, this ilov S.. [01:58:33.379 – 01:58:38.500] Um, S. was really important for me in my beginnings, like doing my research. [01:58:38.500 – 01:58:44.040] Uh, but I will 100% tell you that when z- that article was written in 1968 by Tom P. [01:58:44.040 – 01:58:45.900] Jr, and Tom Sr. [01:58:45.900 – 01:58:49.550] had already retired, um, from the general service office. [01:58:49.550 – 01:58:50.650] So he wasn't fired

[01:58:51.168 – 01:58:52.808] So, but that's okay. [01:58:52.808 – 01:58:58.308] S. is, is probably mixed some different things together, so it's- he's probably- Yeah … [01:58:58.308 – 01:59:08.618] referring a mixing of Tom P., who did copy editing, right, for, um, uh, for Bill's writing specifically, and probably did some other, [01:59:08.618 – 01:59:12.188] um, writing and, and editing for the general service office. [01:59:12.188 – 01:59:17.028] And, um, the, uh, apparently the person, the Grapevine editor who got fired. [01:59:17.028 – 01:59:17.858] So- Mm-hmm. [01:59:17.858 – 01:59:18.958] It's one step forward.

[01:59:18.958 – 01:59:19.468] Great stuff though. [01:59:19.468 – 01:59:20.788] It's a great article. [01:59:20.788 – 01:59:20.838] Great stuff. [01:59:20.838 – 01:59:21.368] I love it. [01:59:21.368 – 01:59:26.188] Uh, so but yeah, it's 1968, 'cause I have the, the cover, so. [01:59:26.188 – 01:59:28.248] Great. [01:59:28.248 – 01:59:29.888] Thank you again for your presentation.

[01:59:29.888 – 01:59:30.628] Yeah. [01:59:30.628 – 01:59:31.468] Thank you, Brian. [01:59:31.468 – 01:59:33.348] So J., I'd just like to ask you this. [01:59:33.348 – 01:59:35.208] And, and I, I have, I have… [01:59:35.208 – 01:59:40.788] This really gets me up, this one, about the, the, the people, the preamble about the people, and we've changed it to people. [01:59:40.788 – 01:59:48.868] Um, and I'm kind of stuck on this, because the message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and width. [01:59:48.868 – 01:59:51.688] I, I, I'm concerned that if it goes to the point where we just f-…

[01:59:51.688 – 02:00:01.708] people are good, people are coming in, and they're not alcoholic people, I mean, see, I think it becomes a free-for-all, and that would be, uh, linking in with your meeting, your, your presentation last week and [02:00:01.708 – 02:00:02.168] this week. [02:00:02.168 – 02:00:03.038] It's just something I, I… [02:00:03.038 – 02:00:04.768] Listen, I don't lose sleep over this. [02:00:04.768 – 02:00:07.588] It's just a, it's just something I can see coming. [02:00:07.588 – 02:00:14.028] Do you have to be even, uh, the, the, the only requirement for membership is a desire, but how, who to qualify someone's desire? [02:00:14.028 – 02:00:16.648] To have a desire for something, you really want to have it.

[02:00:16.648 – 02:00:18.998] But, uh, that, I have a gripe with that one. [02:00:18.998 – 02:00:20.728] Would you like to comment on that for us, please? [02:00:20.728 – 02:00:22.348] Just the people thing in the preamble. [02:00:22.348 – 02:00:28.528] Um, well, you know, the, the preamble is copyrighted and first appeared in the Grapevine. [02:00:28.528 – 02:00:35.208] It was adopted by groups who decided to start using, and is very common now for groups to, to read it. [02:00:35.208 – 02:00:44.588] But it was really created for the Grapevine and then to, uh, and as a way to kind of do public information work also, to like reach and tell non-alcoholics what we were. [02:00:44.588 – 02:00:47.528] It was changed before slightly.

[02:00:47.528 – 02:00:50.188] There have been changes to it that didn't get conference approval. [02:00:50.188 – 02:01:00.268] So, um, I do really appreciate the fact that the Grapevine, um, receiving these requests to ch- to make it gender neutral, that they, even though they [02:01:00.268 – 02:01:10.268] had the editorial independence to make the change on their own, that they took it to the conference and, and the conference, you know, overwhelmingly passed, um, [02:01:10.268 – 02:01:11.788] changing it to people. [02:01:11.788 – 02:01:12.198] Mm. [02:01:12.198 – 02:01:19.568] I mean, as someone points out to me, like the, is it the ninth, ninth step, m- um, made the recommends to the people we had harmed. [02:01:19.568 – 02:01:26.748] So, like, you know, the ninth step says people, so it's, it's kind of, you know, uh, it, to me it's…

[02:01:26.748 – 02:01:36.748] This is one of those moments where I really, I wonder if how much of what's going on in the outside society around, um, trans issues [02:01:36.748 – 02:01:42.748] and language and pronouns and those kind of fears are making its way into the rooms, right? [02:01:42.748 – 02:01:51.428] Um, and, uh, uh, you know, the conference is discussing it, the impact of it this year. [02:01:51.428 – 02:01:55.388] Um, so they're continuing the discussion. [02:01:55.388 – 02:02:05.988] There's no motion to return it back to normal, but I think what's really significant and actually a really good thing that came out of the change, aside from the fact that people feel included, [02:02:05.988 – 02:02:06.908] and I have a… [02:02:06.908 – 02:02:10.828] I mean, I, I, I use they/them pronouns as well as she/her.

[02:02:10.828 – 02:02:19.408] I have a sponsee who is non-binary trans, and he uses only they/them, and I will tell you it means a lot to them personally. [02:02:19.408 – 02:02:29.448] Um, but, uh, so there are people who are personally affected by the change versus people who have an opinion on the change, um, and have fears about the change. [02:02:29.448 – 02:02:39.468] Um, but the other thing that's a really positive result is that now groups are realizing that they don't have to use the preamble, or that [02:02:39.468 – 02:02:44.248] they can adapt the preamble, that they are autonomous in the sense of what they read. [02:02:44.248 – 02:02:46.408] And so groups are having discussion. [02:02:46.408 – 02:02:56.508] There are groups that have decided to continue using the old preamble, and when my delegate came back from the general service conference, they explicitly said, "Your group should discuss [02:02:56.508 – 02:03:01.707] whether or not to adopt the, the preamble." This is just the preamble that the Grapevine is going to use.

[02:03:01.707 – 02:03:05.558] But no one, at no point does GSO tell groups what to do, you know? [02:03:05.558 – 02:03:07.608] At most they set an example. [02:03:07.608 – 02:03:09.288] But, you know, so. [02:03:09.288 – 02:03:12.688] And again, it was the groups going back to the delegates. [02:03:12.688 – 02:03:22.488] And again, it may have been the groups that were participating, and then people suddenly who had not been participating in the process took note of it, and now it's increased participation in general service. [02:03:22.488 – 02:03:32.538] So it's, I think, in the long run gonna be a very good thing, because groups are really gonna, um, you know, really think about their autonomy, think about what literature they're using, what they're [02:03:32.538 – 02:03:33.628] reading.

[02:03:33.628 – 02:03:33.638] Mm. [02:03:33.638 – 02:03:35.488] How is it serving their group? [02:03:35.488 – 02:03:45.728] And at the same time they might be paying more attention to what's happening at the conference as well, which is good, 'cause that means we get a better sense of what the conscience of our [02:03:45.728 – 02:03:48.308] AA is in these decisions. [02:03:48.308 – 02:03:49.808] So I hope that helps. [02:03:49.808 – 02:03:50.118] Thank you, Jackie. [02:03:50.118 – 02:03:53.388] I absolutely, absolutely appreciate your experience in that.

[02:03:53.388 – 02:03:53.588] Thank… [02:03:53.588 – 02:03:55.668] Uh, Mike G., uh, you've got your hand up. [02:03:55.668 – 02:03:56.288] Thank you, Mike. [02:03:56.288 – 02:03:59.008] Uh, yes, I do. [02:03:59.008 – 02:04:00.628] Thank you, David, once again. [02:04:00.628 – 02:04:06.548] And, um, Jackie, um, I've, uh, uh, it's, I, I heard you mention… [02:04:06.548 – 02:04:07.498] Well, a couple things.

[02:04:07.498 – 02:04:11.248] I know, um, I have two very good questions for you. [02:04:11.248 – 02:04:14.838] So one of them, uh, just as an aside about I think w- [02:04:15.056 – 02:04:23.976] Know that a lot of folks think that conference approved means that everything else is conference disapproved, which we all know that not to be the case. [02:04:23.976 – 02:04:24.226] Mm-hmm. [02:04:24.226 – 02:04:28.676] Um, but here's two things that I, that I, you know, found out, I guess kind of recently. [02:04:28.676 – 02:04:33.306] But so book studies, I think it was in the box 459 that… [02:04:33.306 – 02:04:36.776] And, and, um, you know, I got sober with the Joe and Charlie tapes, and I love them.

[02:04:36.776 – 02:04:38.316] They were very helpful for me. [02:04:38.316 – 02:04:38.896] Oh, yeah. [02:04:38.896 – 02:04:48.896] Um, but, um, but I think that, you know, I guess folks were asking, you know, uh, world services to, to make some, uh, book studies and they said, [02:04:48.896 – 02:04:52.166] "You know, we think that…" Because I remember the exact 459. [02:04:52.166 – 02:05:02.376] I have a copy of it, a PDF of, you know, "We think that the literature is, you know, good enough by itself, and that people should be interpreted for themselves and not be told how to interpret it," [02:05:02.376 – 02:05:05.076] which, you know, I think a lot of folks didn't get that memo. [02:05:05.076 – 02:05:15.696] And the other point, the other- So I was wondering your take on that, your, your idea or your hist- the history that you know about that, the book studies thing, and,

[02:05:15.696 – 02:05:16.956] um, the blue card. [02:05:16.956 – 02:05:23.996] You know, where a lot of folks think it's an AA law that you have to keep your discussion, whereas it's an autonomous thing. [02:05:23.996 – 02:05:24.596] The group… [02:05:24.596 – 02:05:34.676] You know, I think it was GSO that said, "Look, we can't tell you what to talk about, but here's a blue card that you can use if you want to." Again, autonomy, right, which I think is [02:05:34.676 – 02:05:36.056] just so awesome. [02:05:36.056 – 02:05:44.816] Anyway, I, I was l- thinking, you know, your, your ta- your, uh, take or the history that you know of on those two points, the blue card and the book studies. [02:05:44.816 – 02:05:48.336] Blue card, do you mean open versus closed meetings card?

[02:05:48.336 – 02:05:48.656] No. [02:05:48.656 – 02:05:51.836] Uh, and it may be a yellow card in, in, in some areas I think. [02:05:51.836 – 02:05:53.256] The safety card? [02:05:53.256 – 02:05:53.526] The safety card? [02:05:53.526 – 02:05:54.696] The s- no, the safety is the yellow one. [02:05:54.696 – 02:05:54.976] That's right. [02:05:54.976 – 02:05:58.276] The blue one that says, um, "We ask…" This is a closed meeting of…

[02:05:58.276 – 02:05:58.896] Yeah. [02:05:58.896 – 02:05:59.386] Yeah. [02:05:59.386 – 02:06:06.186] It's a closed meeting, and they say, "We ask that you talk about, um, your, uh, as it relates to alcoholism." Yes, yes, yes. [02:06:06.186 – 02:06:10.936] Which a lot of folks mean don't talk about other things or outside issues, et cetera, et cetera, right? [02:06:10.936 – 02:06:11.376] Yeah. [02:06:11.376 – 02:06:13.336] Um, yes, yes. [02:06:13.336 – 02:06:14.136] My under- yeah.

[02:06:14.136 – 02:06:18.636] Uh, I don't know much about the blue card, I will say, other than, like, what that… [02:06:18.636 – 02:06:22.276] I mean, like, the history of the blue card, um, and that would be very interesting. [02:06:22.276 – 02:06:27.256] But my understanding of the blue card is actually there's a card for open meetings and a card for closed meetings. [02:06:27.256 – 02:06:33.516] And so I think it was a part of the attempt to clarify what is the difference between an open AA meeting and a closed AA meeting. [02:06:33.516 – 02:06:37.816] And the custom of closing AA meetings started in Cl- I believe in Cleveland. [02:06:37.816 – 02:06:44.876] Um, but it did start in, like, Midwestern AA as a way to k- keep the wives out, the non-alcoholic wives. [02:06:44.876 – 02:06:54.986] So it, it actually grew up around the time that, um, women started coming into the meetings, and, uh, there was a lot of issues with the wives, non-alcohol

[02:06:54.986 – 02:06:59.956] wives and the alcoholic women, and they tried different ways to solve the problem. [02:06:59.956 – 02:07:05.756] They had women, alcoholic women sitting on one side of the room, and then the alcoholic men and their wives on another side. [02:07:05.756 – 02:07:15.786] And then eventually they came upon the idea of having closed meetings that were only for alcoholics, which would then keep the wives and, like, their local clergy members out of the room. [02:07:15.786 – 02:07:18.196] Um, had nothing to do with drug addicts. [02:07:18.196 – 02:07:20.496] That is just something that got adapted. [02:07:20.496 – 02:07:22.496] And then it was also an issue of anonymity. [02:07:22.496 – 02:07:32.556] Open meetings, non-alcoholics who have an interest in AA, like local clergy, like local doctors, can, can go to to learn about AA because,

[02:07:32.556 – 02:07:35.356] uh, a lot of groups were involved in public information work. [02:07:35.356 – 02:07:44.236] And cooperation with the professional communities, a lot of groups did a lot more of that hands-on work than now general service committees or intergroups do these days. [02:07:44.236 – 02:07:50.116] And so it was important for people to know, like, where they could go, where they wouldn't be seen, where the… [02:07:50.116 – 02:07:51.826] it would only be other alcoholics. [02:07:51.826 – 02:08:01.036] And then, of course, starting in the '60s, '70s, was drug, um, drug rapes and, and co-alcoholism increased. [02:08:01.036 – 02:08:08.756] Um, a- a- and more AA members came in with drug problems, and there were AA groups attempting to help drug addicts stay sober. [02:08:08.756 – 02:08:12.996] Um, all of that, you know, kind of culminating in problems other than alcohol.

[02:08:12.996 – 02:08:15.946] That's when open and closed meetings started taking on… [02:08:15.946 – 02:08:26.376] closed meetings started taking on a different, um, meaning to imply, uh, no drug addicts, only speak about alcoholism [02:08:26.376 – 02:08:26.506] so much. [02:08:26.506 – 02:08:36.116] Um- Yeah, I think because, um, the, um, I think it was be- that was what I had heard of, of sort of like, oh, all the treatment centers are throwing all the addicts in here, and again with the watering down. [02:08:36.116 – 02:08:40.596] I think it's the F17 primary purpose statement card to, to, uh, to correct myself. [02:08:40.596 – 02:08:41.656] And just- Yeah. [02:08:41.656 – 02:08:44.086] Oh, it's the primary pur- I don't know about that one.

[02:08:44.086 – 02:08:45.336] Mike just put in the chat, Jackie. [02:08:45.336 – 02:08:46.135] I just put it in the chat. [02:08:46.135 – 02:08:47.496] Mike just, uh, sent this to me. [02:08:47.496 – 02:08:48.396] Oh, great. [02:08:48.396 – 02:08:50.096] But- I'll take a look at it, and I can even… [02:08:50.096 – 02:08:51.896] maybe we can screen share it, 'cause I don't know. [02:08:51.896 – 02:08:53.136] Um, but I'll take a look at it.

[02:08:53.136 – 02:08:53.376] Yeah. [02:08:53.376 – 02:08:54.676] It's, it's interesting. [02:08:54.676 – 02:08:56.515] Um, I didn't even… [02:08:56.515 – 02:08:59.476] So- So I thought it was the, the blue… [02:08:59.476 – 02:09:01.526] it was the o- uh, open and closed ones, so. [02:09:01.526 – 02:09:02.036] No, it's good. [02:09:02.036 – 02:09:02.146] This is good.

[02:09:02.146 – 02:09:03.945] But I do have this to share. [02:09:03.945 – 02:09:05.075] It is, it is the blue card. [02:09:05.075 – 02:09:06.636] It is the blue card. [02:09:06.636 – 02:09:07.576] It is? [02:09:07.576 – 02:09:07.896] Okay. [02:09:07.896 – 02:09:08.596] Well- Elise has… [02:09:08.596 – 02:09:10.076] Elise, I saw you waving something.

[02:09:10.076 – 02:09:12.266] Do you want to read some of that for us, if you would know? [02:09:12.266 – 02:09:15.116] For a second, can I, can I answer about the Big Book Study G.? [02:09:15.116 – 02:09:15.856] Yes, of course you can. [02:09:15.856 – 02:09:16.026] Go ahead. [02:09:16.026 – 02:09:17.736] So this might be one that you saw. [02:09:17.736 – 02:09:19.696] This was in 1977. [02:09:19.696 – 02:09:25.876] And so, uh, there were questions and the desire, the beginning of the discussion to have Big Book Study G..

[02:09:25.876 – 02:09:27.576] And at the time- That's it … [02:09:27.576 – 02:09:28.356] this is what came out. [02:09:28.356 – 02:09:30.396] This is what one of the trustees said. [02:09:30.396 – 02:09:34.986] "The individual AA member does not need another person or institution to think for him or her. [02:09:34.986 – 02:09:36.996] In fact, this could be a very bad thing. [02:09:36.996 – 02:09:39.066] Part of the beauty and magic of AA is that person-" [02:09:39.184 – 02:09:45.764] from all walks of life with varied backgrounds may benefit from the Big Book, the steps, the traditions, and the concepts from their own point of view.

[02:09:45.764 – 02:09:55.984] Placing guidelines on paper seems to say, "This is the way, the only way." So AAW, there, this was kind of a resistance by the conference, and the conference did discuss this at some point [02:09:55.984 – 02:10:02.324] in around this time, maybe in the '80s, um, uh, about whether or not to have a… [02:10:02.324 – 02:10:12.364] And then they kind of, um, made an advisory action not to do Big Book, um, not to do any workbooks so as not to say that there is an official AA approved way [02:10:12.364 – 02:10:15.564] or AAWS conference approved way to do the steps. [02:10:15.564 – 02:10:23.394] But as we know, Big Book study guides were still very published by individual groups and members and have been very influential. [02:10:23.394 – 02:10:33.064] Now we are considering them again as an accessibility option, particularly for members who don't have access to sponsorship, like those who are incarcerated. [02:10:33.064 – 02:10:37.404] Um, and so now it's being looked at more like a- an accessibility issue.

[02:10:37.404 – 02:10:39.924] So that, I had that in my slideshow. [02:10:39.924 – 02:10:43.104] I just didn't, I had to skip it over for the sake of time. [02:10:43.104 – 02:10:45.184] Does someone wanna screen share? [02:10:45.184 – 02:10:45.714] I'm gonna open that. [02:10:45.714 – 02:10:47.364] I think we were just gonna go with Elise B. [02:10:47.364 – 02:10:49.644] B- before Hugh d- before we just go… [02:10:49.644 – 02:10:51.304] Elise, did you wanna just read that quickly?

[02:10:51.304 – 02:10:52.474] No, Hu- Hugh, you're okay? [02:10:52.474 – 02:10:54.114] You're okay. [02:10:54.114 – 02:10:55.564] Hugh's letting us go. [02:10:55.564 – 02:10:58.524] Elise B, will you read that for us if we have a, a minute or so, I guess? [02:10:58.524 – 02:10:59.624] The blue card. [02:10:59.624 – 02:11:00.404] This is the blue card. [02:11:00.404 – 02:11:00.804] Is that right?

[02:11:00.804 – 02:11:01.844] Elise, you're muted. [02:11:01.844 – 02:11:06.424] Yes, it is the blue card. [02:11:06.424 – 02:11:09.384] Uh, open meetings are on one side and closed meetings on the other. [02:11:09.384 – 02:11:16.524] I haven't grabbed the French one, but, um, to be read at closed meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:11:16.524 – 02:11:17.744] Um- Okay. [02:11:17.744 – 02:11:20.424] Is that what we're speaking about, uh, Mike G and Jackie? [02:11:20.424 – 02:11:21.474] Is that what we're speaking about?

[02:11:21.474 – 02:11:22.104] Yeah. [02:11:22.104 – 02:11:24.643] Yeah, I guess maybe it's called primary purpose. [02:11:24.643 – 02:11:25.294] Yeah. [02:11:25.294 – 02:11:27.724] But it's referring to, um, hold on. [02:11:27.724 – 02:11:33.044] I'm, I'm opening it right now, and I'll screen share it so that everyone can see. [02:11:33.044 – 02:11:33.894] Thank you, Jackie. [02:11:33.894 – 02:11:34.244] That's great.

[02:11:34.244 – 02:11:39.944] And it's from aa.org, so it means it's still in circulation, but sorry, it's… [02:11:39.944 – 02:11:42.544] Zoom slows everything down. [02:11:42.544 – 02:11:44.164] Okay. [02:11:44.164 – 02:11:52.544] Oh, so it's called primary purpose, and- There we go It's a white card. [02:11:52.544 – 02:11:54.584] It's white. [02:11:54.584 – 02:11:57.544] Is it white? [02:11:57.544 – 02:11:58.104] Oh, gosh.

[02:11:58.104 – 02:11:59.404] Yeah. [02:11:59.404 – 02:12:00.604] It really is a white card. [02:12:00.604 – 02:12:03.364] I don't know what… [02:12:03.364 – 02:12:04.904] It's blue in, in New York. [02:12:04.904 – 02:12:06.644] Okay. [02:12:06.644 – 02:12:07.824] It's blue in New York. [02:12:07.824 – 02:12:09.304] And, and we have it blue in the UK.

[02:12:09.304 – 02:12:10.544] Yeah. [02:12:10.544 – 02:12:11.724] It's blue in New York- Oh … [02:12:11.724 – 02:12:12.524] the way it is. [02:12:12.524 – 02:12:12.593] Mm-hmm. [02:12:12.593 – 02:12:13.144] Yeah. [02:12:13.144 – 02:12:13.444] See? [02:12:13.444 – 02:12:14.904] Open, closed.

[02:12:14.904 – 02:12:20.184] Um, limited to persons who have a desire to stop drinking. [02:12:20.184 – 02:12:21.484] It's the last sentence. [02:12:21.484 – 02:12:27.264] Uh, we ask that when discussing our problems, we confine ourselves to those problems as they relate to alcoholism. [02:12:27.264 – 02:12:31.444] And it's, it was created by the 1987 General S. Conference. [02:12:31.444 – 02:12:36.564] Um, we ask that all who participate confine their discussion to problems. [02:12:36.564 – 02:12:36.744] Yeah. [02:12:36.744 – 02:12:44.664] I mean, the '80s was a definitely an interesting time in AA history and what was happening at the General S. Conference.

[02:12:44.664 – 02:12:48.544] Um, that's all I will say. [02:12:48.544 – 02:12:49.373] I mean- … [02:12:49.373 – 02:12:56.824] there were all the discussions about at the time, like, w- the whether or not to have the gay pamphlet, you know, gay and lesbian pamphlet. [02:12:56.824 – 02:12:59.504] A lot of discussions were happening around this time as well. [02:12:59.504 – 02:13:10.104] So there was a lot of juicy stuff happening in general service, and there was a lot of concerns about AA becoming too segregated, about, you know, losing its effectiveness to help alcoholics. [02:13:10.104 – 02:13:14.144] And a- and as I said, like, the '80s and '90s, there was a big orthodox push. [02:13:14.144 – 02:13:15.664] So when people talk about…

[02:13:15.664 – 02:13:23.364] It's so funny 'cause you'll talk to some people, and they act like the General S. Conference is the biggest liberal, like, crazy, you know what I mean, change. [02:13:23.364 – 02:13:26.324] And then you talk to, like, I have friends who are atheist, agnostic. [02:13:26.324 – 02:13:31.004] You talk to them, and they're like, "The General Service C. is so conservative and slow." You know? [02:13:31.004 – 02:13:35.464] So it's, I think it's, that's why I like the conference process because no one's happy. [02:13:35.464 – 02:13:36.784] No, I'm joking. [02:13:36.784 – 02:13:38.824] I, J- what we'll do, Jackie, if it's okay. [02:13:38.824 – 02:13:40.254] Mike, what we do, we just close it.

[02:13:40.254 – 02:13:46.184] We can come back on that in the meeting after the meeting, but we have three more ques- three more hands up, and if we do them three, and then we close the meeting. [02:13:46.184 – 02:13:51.424] Jackie, say a prayer or whatever you wish to share, and then we close that, and we come back for the meeting after the meeting. [02:13:51.424 – 02:13:54.194] So H., Hugh H, uh, thanks for waiting, Hugh. [02:13:54.194 – 02:13:54.744] Appreciate it. [02:13:54.744 – 02:13:55.284] Sure. [02:13:55.284 – 02:13:55.924] No problem. [02:13:55.924 – 02:13:59.003] Um, I'd let Elise go first anytime.

[02:13:59.003 – 02:14:09.264] Um, I was, I've never seen that Box 459 article about the study guides before, but it's interesting that there's only five pieces [02:14:09.264 – 02:14:11.404] of literature that I associate with Dr. [02:14:11.404 – 02:14:12.064] Bob. [02:14:12.064 – 02:14:16.224] One was the, the, uh, 24 Hour D. book, right? [02:14:16.224 – 02:14:21.704] But the other five were pamphlets that were, they're still for sale in Akron. [02:14:21.704 – 02:14:22.414] Akron. [02:14:22.414 – 02:14:22.954] That Dr.

[02:14:22.954 – 02:14:28.644] Bob asked for because he thought the Big Book was too hard to understand for blue-collar workers. [02:14:28.644 – 02:14:29.884] Yeah. [02:14:29.884 – 02:14:31.324] Yeah. [02:14:31.324 – 02:14:35.204] The Big Book was almost college reading level in when it was published. [02:14:35.204 – 02:14:35.924] Yeah. [02:14:35.924 – 02:14:42.384] So there were accessibility issues with the Big Book back then, and that's why the Akron pamphlets- It's probably post-graduate level now. [02:14:42.384 – 02:14:43.504] Hm.

[02:14:43.504 – 02:14:44.084] Yeah. [02:14:44.084 – 02:14:45.384] College level definitely. [02:14:45.384 – 02:14:51.864] And, um, so that's why the Akron pamphlets are an example, as is The Little Red B., which came out of Minnesota. [02:14:51.864 – 02:14:53.664] Um, The Little Red B.. [02:14:53.664 – 02:15:03.114] Um, and then a lot of cities, Houston, um, in fact, Houston had a little pamphlet about AA that was, or a series of articles that was so popular that AA published- [02:15:03.392 – 02:15:13.432] it under the pamphlet AA World S. published, not AA World S., Alcoholic F. published it under the title AA, and it was a pamphlet that was originally given- It was their very first publication. [02:15:13.432 – 02:15:13.972] Yeah.

[02:15:13.972 – 02:15:22.282] So, um, the Akron pamphlets and the Houston pamphlet and, uh, as, as an example of what the general- I meant, I meant to say that … [02:15:22.282 – 02:15:23.852] service office called can openers. [02:15:23.852 – 02:15:34.492] So they, they started referring to these local supplemental materials as can openers with the idea that it would help open the program and make it accessible [02:15:34.492 – 02:15:40.972] and widen the doorway to entry, um, when the basic text was a little intimidating for people. [02:15:40.972 – 02:15:49.852] So we've always had supplemental literature, and some of them have been a little bit more on the orthodox, some of them have been a little bit more on the, you know, generous side. [02:15:49.852 – 02:15:51.732] But they've always existed, yeah. [02:15:51.732 – 02:15:57.152] And, and there's a- My mistake in saying the- And there's been accessibility- My mistake in saying 24- Yeah …

[02:15:57.152 – 02:15:59.152] the 24, it was not 24 Hours a Day. [02:15:59.152 – 02:16:00.332] I meant the little red book. [02:16:00.332 – 02:16:01.652] The little red book. [02:16:01.652 – 02:16:02.132] Oh, okay. [02:16:02.132 – 02:16:02.272] Yeah. [02:16:02.272 – 02:16:02.562] Yeah. [02:16:02.562 – 02:16:02.572] Yeah.

[02:16:02.572 – 02:16:03.932] The little red, that makes sense. [02:16:03.932 – 02:16:04.172] Yeah. [02:16:04.172 – 02:16:05.912] Um, so yeah. [02:16:05.912 – 02:16:07.251] It's, uh, yeah. [02:16:07.251 – 02:16:08.462] So the- Thank you … [02:16:08.462 – 02:16:15.552] conversations that we have today, the debates, the internal controversies, a lot of them we've been having for decades and decades. [02:16:15.552 – 02:16:22.022] Now, can I, Marsha, I did say that we're going up to Patrick O. and then we have to stop, so unfortunately we have to stop, and then we come to you first.

[02:16:22.022 – 02:16:24.832] Well, you know, but the one thing, Marsha hasn't spoken yet, so. [02:16:24.832 – 02:16:26.772] I know, that's true, but i- um, we closed it. [02:16:26.772 – 02:16:29.992] We have this meeting after the meeting just if people wanna go, but- Okay … [02:16:29.992 – 02:16:31.912] but we, because it's Marsha, we might sneak her in. [02:16:31.912 – 02:16:35.052] But B- Bert, Bert L- Bert, quick. [02:16:35.052 – 02:16:35.392] Come on. [02:16:35.392 – 02:16:36.372] You've had about nine goes.

[02:16:36.372 – 02:16:36.631] Okay. [02:16:36.631 – 02:16:36.742] I just- Come on. [02:16:36.742 – 02:16:37.252] Come back in … [02:16:37.252 – 02:16:47.492] I, I just wanted to say, uh, what, uh, we do here in New York, not so much to stay on this, but the other side open meeting is when we have an anniversary and I ask [02:16:47.492 – 02:16:52.472] maybe Kenny to c- uh, Dave to come to the meeting and speak for me, and I bring my family. [02:16:52.472 – 02:16:57.812] And the other me- other people who are celebrating, they bring their families. [02:16:57.812 – 02:17:03.792] So what happens is it's an open meeting where anyone can attend, okay?

[02:17:03.792 – 02:17:10.472] And so therefore you wanna, you know, you wanna include your family if they come to this open meeting. [02:17:10.472 – 02:17:11.292] You know what I'm saying? [02:17:11.292 – 02:17:19.232] Now, what we started doing as well is when we do collect, we don't, we ask the family members, they don't have to give. [02:17:19.232 – 02:17:23.392] W- well, we make it, we keep it to the m- members of AA. [02:17:23.392 – 02:17:27.672] So that's what we do with open meetings, and then there's other things. [02:17:27.672 – 02:17:28.572] But that's it for me. [02:17:28.572 – 02:17:29.642] I, I, I'll shut up now.

[02:17:29.642 – 02:17:31.392] Thank you, Bert, for keeping that brief. [02:17:31.392 – 02:17:31.702] Thank you. [02:17:31.702 – 02:17:32.052] Thank you very much. [02:17:32.052 – 02:17:34.992] Jackie, I'll just jump over a- and go to Patrick wants to come in. [02:17:34.992 – 02:17:37.412] And Marsha, we'll sneak you, we'll get Marsha in, of course. [02:17:37.412 – 02:17:38.082] Yeah. [02:17:38.082 – 02:17:39.212] Patrick.

[02:17:39.212 – 02:17:46.912] Uh, the only thing, a lot of these discussions on the, uh, like the closed meeting and op- I have documents that show that they were being done in the early '40s. [02:17:46.912 – 02:17:47.281] Okay. [02:17:47.281 – 02:17:48.172] They were nothing new. [02:17:48.172 – 02:17:48.721] Yeah. [02:17:48.721 – 02:17:51.402] And they came from the Emmanuel G. and the Jacobi G.- Mm … [02:17:51.402 – 02:17:54.632] which used to go ahead and bring in only people who had problem with alcohol. [02:17:54.632 – 02:17:55.372] Mm-hmm.

[02:17:55.372 – 02:18:01.072] And, and then every once in a while they'd have what they called a, an open meeting where people would get information. [02:18:01.072 – 02:18:01.082] Yeah. [02:18:01.082 – 02:18:10.032] But we're, we spend so much time thinking we're inventing something that w- it was invented centuries ago sometimes if, if not just decades. [02:18:10.032 – 02:18:10.412] Yeah. [02:18:10.412 – 02:18:11.232] That's, that's the thing. [02:18:11.232 – 02:18:15.372] I mean, i- that's why I say we, we, we're doing an awful lot of spinning wheels. [02:18:15.372 – 02:18:19.452] It's, a- and we're trying to, we're trying to reinvent it.

[02:18:19.452 – 02:18:23.072] Yes, 100%. [02:18:23.072 – 02:18:24.112] That's- Yes … [02:18:24.112 – 02:18:24.752] thank you, Pat. [02:18:24.752 – 02:18:27.172] Marsha, to finish us off for this section. [02:18:27.172 – 02:18:28.072] Go ahead, Marsha. [02:18:28.072 – 02:18:29.912] Just a real quick thing. [02:18:29.912 – 02:18:30.812] This is a book.

[02:18:30.812 – 02:18:32.992] Did it come out backward? [02:18:32.992 – 02:18:33.712] It's looking backward. [02:18:33.712 – 02:18:34.382] No, I see it. [02:18:34.382 – 02:18:38.552] Alcoholics Anonymous: An I. To- Uh, Greater D.? [02:18:38.552 – 02:18:40.352] Yeah, that's one of the can openers. [02:18:40.352 – 02:18:41.492] It's by Detr- Yeah … [02:18:41.492 – 02:18:43.132] or Detroit, Detroit published it.

[02:18:43.132 – 02:18:43.622] Yeah. [02:18:43.622 – 02:18:51.592] It's, uh- So it's just an example of hundreds of introductory booklets and pamphlets like that all around the country in the '40s. [02:18:51.592 – 02:18:52.392] Yeah. [02:18:52.392 – 02:19:01.092] The lo- the lore about that book, uh, this is a book that's currently, one of my meetings is studying this book again, this little pamphlet. [02:19:01.092 – 02:19:01.702] Mm-hmm. [02:19:01.702 – 02:19:05.012] And, um, the lore is that if… [02:19:05.012 – 02:19:15.132] Now, they say that it was one of the first of what you would call the can opener, uh, pamphlets, um,

[02:19:15.132 – 02:19:18.572] back, you know, before the '40s. [02:19:18.572 – 02:19:18.932] You know? [02:19:18.932 – 02:19:21.052] Uh, that's what they say. [02:19:21.052 – 02:19:23.492] It, yeah, it's possible. [02:19:23.492 – 02:19:28.972] Some of these pamphlets, like I said, also started out as articles that people would put in the press as well. [02:19:28.972 – 02:19:29.542] Mm-hmm. [02:19:29.542 – 02:19:39.192] So, um, and then they were popular and so they started getting printed by the local group, and then they got turned into pamphlets and that- that's what happened with the Houston, um, article as well.

[02:19:39.192 – 02:19:41.812] So it's possible, but you gotta watch out. [02:19:41.812 – 02:19:45.352] Cities have a tendency to fight about who's, who was first to do something. [02:19:45.352 – 02:19:46.252] Of, of course. [02:19:46.252 – 02:19:48.732] But it's good to see you and good to hear you again. [02:19:48.732 – 02:19:50.112] It's so good to see you, Marsha. [02:19:50.112 – 02:19:50.951] Mm-hmm. [02:19:50.951 – 02:19:51.592] Mm-hmm.

[02:19:51.592 – 02:20:01.592] So we're gonna just, Jackie, we're gonna go back to you to close with, um, maybe some prayer or I think you're gonna use the, um, [02:20:01.592 – 02:20:02.372] responsible pledge. [02:20:02.372 – 02:20:03.592] I think you used that last time. [02:20:03.592 – 02:20:05.462] I think that's what- I like the responsibility pledge. [02:20:05.462 – 02:20:05.472] That's a really good one. [02:20:05.472 – 02:20:05.632] Yeah. [02:20:05.632 – 02:20:07.252] And I'm gonna put that up on the screen.

[02:20:07.252 – 02:20:07.882] Thank you, Jackie. [02:20:07.882 – 02:20:09.792] I'm gonna put up on the screen if we wanna… [02:20:09.792 – 02:20:11.882] Sorry, Jackie. [02:20:11.882 – 02:20:12.332] Go up. [02:20:12.332 – 02:20:14.032] There we go, Jackie. [02:20:14.032 – 02:20:16.312] Thank you ever so much, Jackie. [02:20:16.312 – 02:20:16.342] Thank you.

[02:20:16.342 – 02:20:18.932] And just before you do that, can we get you back some time soon? [02:20:18.932 – 02:20:19.452] Thank you. [02:20:19.452 – 02:20:22.072] Yeah. [02:20:22.072 – 02:20:23.072] I would love to. [02:20:23.072 – 02:20:23.622] Thank you. [02:20:23.622 – 02:20:23.792] Thank you. [02:20:23.792 – 02:20:24.832] So kind.

[02:20:24.832 – 02:20:25.952] All right. [02:20:25.952 – 02:20:27.201] A moment of silence to d- [02:20:27.420 – 02:20:28.400] With as you wish. [02:20:28.400 – 02:20:32.460] And then we will end with the responsibility statement. [02:20:32.460 – 02:20:37.640] Who is responsible? [02:20:37.640 – 02:20:40.380] I am responsible I am responsible. [02:20:40.380 – 02:20:43.060] When anyone- When anyone, anywhere- When anyone, anywhere- …

[02:20:43.060 – 02:20:44.480] reaches out for help … [02:20:44.480 – 02:20:44.850] reaches out for help. [02:20:44.850 – 02:20:46.700] I want the hand of AA- And they, and they always- And they always- … [02:20:46.700 – 02:20:47.590] all the way up here … [02:20:47.590 – 02:20:47.870] can get a hand … [02:20:47.870 – 02:20:51.830] to say, "I am responsible." That they are responsible. [02:20:51.830 – 02:20:52.010] That they are responsible.

[02:20:52.010 – 02:20:53.980] Thank you, Jackie, and thank you, everyone. [02:20:53.980 – 02:20:54.920] Thank you. [02:20:54.920 – 02:20:55.390] Thank you. [02:20:55.390 – 02:20:56.190] Fantastic. [02:20:56.190 – 02:20:57.610] Thank you, Jackie. [02:20:57.610 – 02:20:58.450] Thank you, Jackie. [02:20:58.450 – 02:20:59.860] Great job as always.

[02:20:59.860 – 02:21:01.320] Thank you, Jackie. [02:21:01.320 – 02:21:02.160] Standing. [02:21:02.160 – 02:21:02.230] Thank you so much. [02:21:02.230 – 02:21:04.000] Great questions, great answers. [02:21:04.000 – 02:21:04.800] Thank you, Jackie. [02:21:04.800 – 02:21:05.560] Hurry back. [02:21:05.560 – 02:21:06.940] Great job.

[02:21:06.940 – 02:21:07.660] Thank you. [02:21:07.660 – 02:21:08.050] Thank you, David. [02:21:08.050 – 02:21:09.000] Thank you, Jackie. [02:21:09.000 – 02:21:09.790] Thank you, Jackie. [02:21:09.790 – 02:21:09.910] Thank you, David. [02:21:09.910 – 02:21:10.220] Thank you, Tommy. [02:21:10.220 – 02:21:11.840] Thank you for your service tonight, Tommy.

[02:21:11.840 – 02:21:12.760] Appreciate it, pal. [02:21:12.760 – 02:21:13.720] You're welcome. [02:21:13.720 – 02:21:14.360] Excellent. [02:21:14.360 – 02:21:14.449] Yeah. [02:21:14.449 – 02:21:15.110] Excellent stuff. [02:21:15.110 – 02:21:18.180] And e- and everyone that asked great questions too, so yeah. [02:21:18.180 – 02:21:18.700] Gloria.

[02:21:18.700 – 02:21:18.770] You're welcome. [02:21:18.770 – 02:21:23.440] Yeah, the, the chat is open now if you wanna jump in, but please be respectful of course. [02:21:23.440 – 02:21:24.980] Oh, no, I didn't send that. [02:21:24.980 – 02:21:27.440] No, but please be respectful to everyone. [02:21:27.440 – 02:21:28.500] I think I've done it, haven't I? [02:21:28.500 – 02:21:31.879] Yep, everyone, you can share. [02:21:31.879 – 02:21:35.840] Um, I- Gloria, what, what part of Pennsylvania are you from?

[02:21:35.840 – 02:21:40.680] Uh, actually I live in King of Prussia now. [02:21:40.680 – 02:21:41.640] Through most- Okay … [02:21:41.640 – 02:21:50.680] of my sobriety I lived in Malvern, which is, you know, re- related to Malvern H. in- Malvern C.. [02:21:50.680 – 02:21:53.500] I'm just gonna remind people that we're still recording, just to let you know. [02:21:53.500 – 02:21:54.720] Just, just, just be mindful. [02:21:54.720 – 02:21:54.790] Oh. [02:21:54.790 – 02:21:55.580] Just be mindful.

[02:21:55.580 – 02:21:57.100] Sorry. [02:21:57.100 – 02:21:57.670] Sorry. [02:21:57.670 – 02:21:57.770] Okay. [02:21:57.770 – 02:21:58.100] No, no. [02:21:58.100 – 02:21:58.900] Just be mindful. [02:21:58.900 – 02:21:59.280] Like… [02:21:59.280 – 02:22:02.230] I wasn't, I wasn't about to say anything extreme.

[02:22:02.230 – 02:22:03.520] No, not that you would have, Gloria. [02:22:03.520 – 02:22:04.460] Of course you wouldn't have. [02:22:04.460 – 02:22:06.100] Oh. [02:22:06.100 – 02:22:07.660] I'm just saying. [02:22:07.660 – 02:22:08.500] Sorry, go ahead. [02:22:08.500 – 02:22:10.140] Jim W., come in. [02:22:10.140 – 02:22:11.080] Here's Jim.

[02:22:11.080 – 02:22:12.240] Yeah. [02:22:12.240 – 02:22:13.980] Um… [02:22:13.980 – 02:22:14.539] Hi, Jim. [02:22:14.539 – 02:22:14.800] Hi. [02:22:14.800 – 02:22:15.700] Gloria's still here. [02:22:15.700 – 02:22:25.060] I think she asked, uh, the question, uh, in the be- the first time, and, um, about did Dr. [02:22:25.060 – 02:22:26.760] Bob really approve?

[02:22:26.760 – 02:22:36.800] And, uh, again, you know, maybe it's, uh, it's just something, but in the December it was published po- posthumously. [02:22:36.800 – 02:22:47.020] He died in November, but in the December 1950 Grapevine there is an article called Our T. Legacy, and [02:22:47.020 – 02:22:50.920] it is, uh, it is written by Dr. [02:22:50.920 – 02:22:52.280] Bob and Bill. [02:22:52.280 – 02:22:55.540] And, uh, and it says Dr. [02:22:55.540 – 02:22:57.060] Bob and Bill, "Dr. [02:22:57.060 – 02:23:07.120] Bob and I would like to, uh, invite you to, you know, to your third legacy," and, uh, which is talking

[02:23:07.120 – 02:23:08.340] about the conference. [02:23:08.340 – 02:23:15.040] So that's about as close as I can get, uh, to anyone, because it does say Bill and Dr. [02:23:15.040 – 02:23:15.560] Bob. [02:23:15.560 – 02:23:17.349] And, uh- Yeah … [02:23:17.349 – 02:23:20.990] so, uh- But Bill did write that, so it's- Yeah, he did … [02:23:20.990 – 02:23:25.760] it was part of his campaign to get the fellowship to accept the conference plan. [02:23:25.760 – 02:23:30.560] So I, you know, it's still the, you know, the ques- you know, it's like again, Bob's…

[02:23:30.560 – 02:23:32.659] we're taking Bob's word on it. [02:23:32.659 – 02:23:34.400] I mean Bill's word on it. [02:23:34.400 – 02:23:34.810] Bill's word. [02:23:34.810 – 02:23:35.440] Um- Yep … [02:23:35.440 – 02:23:36.780] but yeah. [02:23:36.780 – 02:23:43.860] So if you just put your hands up if you wanna jump in, b- uh, I just think it's best to do it that way. [02:23:43.860 – 02:23:48.210] Or if you just wanna talk over each other, go for it.

[02:23:48.210 – 02:23:50.540] I do have one point I wanted to- Oh … [02:23:50.540 – 02:23:54.080] uh, say, which I think is, is actually indicative of something. [02:23:54.080 – 02:23:56.710] I'm just gonna ask this question, but, um, you know, Mr. [02:23:56.710 – 02:24:03.800] Shabeurg has said it and, and you've said it, Jackie, uh, that, um, someone should do some research on that. [02:24:03.800 – 02:24:05.580] Yeah, that would be an interesting thing of research. [02:24:05.580 – 02:24:08.140] It's sort of like this must be exhausting, is it not? [02:24:08.140 – 02:24:11.720] And like let's get some other people to, to, to help out, right?

[02:24:11.720 – 02:24:12.980] Is that what I'm hearing? [02:24:12.980 – 02:24:18.940] Uh, about, about the, about whether or not Bob objected to the conference? [02:24:18.940 – 02:24:22.300] You know, or- No, no, no, about history of AA in general. [02:24:22.300 – 02:24:25.350] Yeah. [02:24:25.350 – 02:24:25.599] Yeah. [02:24:25.599 – 02:24:29.480] I mean, and they're, and a lot of us are doing research, so you know, I… [02:24:29.480 – 02:24:38.070] Ernie K. in one of his last messages, it was a interview he did with Kevin H., um, page 120.

[02:24:38.070 – 02:24:40.980] It was f- and it was presented for the first time at the AA History S.. [02:24:40.980 – 02:24:44.960] Ernest K. says that what we really need is more local histories. [02:24:44.960 – 02:24:45.650] Mm. [02:24:45.650 – 02:24:52.660] Because AA really is this l- you know, local phenomenon, and it is so different place to place. [02:24:52.660 – 02:24:57.400] Um, and so we need more of the local histories. [02:24:57.400 – 02:25:02.600] Um, you know, so I- I'm personally interested in the history of the concepts. [02:25:02.600 – 02:25:09.560] Um, and I found someone who, Jeff B., who has done a lot of research into the writing and development of the concepts.

[02:25:09.560 – 02:25:12.560] Um, I think that's an area we don't know a lot about. [02:25:12.560 – 02:25:20.940] Like what was Bill reading, what was Bernard and Bill's discussions like, what were some of the first drafts of the conference plan like. [02:25:20.940 – 02:25:22.080] I mean, but I'm a nerd. [02:25:22.080 – 02:25:24.600] That's the stuff that interests me, you know? [02:25:24.600 – 02:25:25.840] Um, so… [02:25:25.840 – 02:25:26.770] Yeah. [02:25:26.770 – 02:25:27.340] Good stuff.

[02:25:27.340 – 02:25:28.260] Thanks. [02:25:28.260 – 02:25:29.860] J- Ginny just posted in the chat. [02:25:29.860 – 02:25:31.300] Hello, Ginny, from Al-Anon. [02:25:31.300 – 02:25:32.720] And you wanna just give us that little… [02:25:32.720 – 02:25:34.720] Do you wanna just mention that, what you put in the chat? [02:25:34.720 – 02:25:35.560] Thank you for that. [02:25:35.560 – 02:25:36.100] Yeah.

[02:25:36.100 – 02:25:44.600] I just wanna say thanks, and I'm gonna just say that, um, you know, I go to, um, in, I'm in, on Zoom. [02:25:44.600 – 02:25:45.580] I go to the, the… [02:25:45.580 – 02:25:51.370] I just today got off of, there's a UK meeting that's, uh, is, was a some famous s- [02:25:51.668 – 02:26:01.768] Um, they said Stratford out, AA meeting that once a month or twice a month let in, had Al-Anon participation, and then during COVID, like they [02:26:01.768 – 02:26:02.168] didn't want… [02:26:02.168 – 02:26:07.968] Nobody stepped up to continue it, and so, uh, the Al-Anons just made it an Al-Anon meeting. [02:26:07.968 – 02:26:11.128] And every week we have both speakers, a speaker from each.

[02:26:11.128 – 02:26:13.628] There's also a Wednesday one in Manchester. [02:26:13.628 – 02:26:14.968] These are all on Zoom. [02:26:14.968 – 02:26:18.508] The, the Friday one is called Hope Y. Find Us. [02:26:18.508 – 02:26:28.828] It's 3:00 PM Eastern T. and 8:00 PM in London, and it's, the Manchester one is 7:00 PM in London and 2:00 PM here, [02:26:28.828 – 02:26:30.768] and they're so amazing. [02:26:30.768 – 02:26:32.088] People are so blown away. [02:26:32.088 – 02:26:37.468] And to tell you the truth, I cannot tell the difference between an AA and an Al-Anon speaker.

[02:26:37.468 – 02:26:41.928] And every, and I'm becoming a real AA speaker meeting junkie. [02:26:41.928 – 02:26:47.708] I just cannot believe how much I relate to everything. [02:26:47.708 – 02:26:57.768] So anyway, just thanks a lot, and, um, I really am very agai- I understand closed meetings if I was wanting not people to know what's going on with [02:26:57.768 – 02:26:57.888] me. [02:26:57.888 – 02:27:06.788] But in general, you know, it's like there are Al-Anon people that, "Don't talk about this," and, "Don't talk about that." In these open meetings, the speakers will mention everything. [02:27:06.788 – 02:27:07.327] Just like Dr. [02:27:07.327 – 02:27:11.488] Bob and all of, in the Big Book, they s- mention everything.

[02:27:11.488 – 02:27:13.428] You know, they, the drug problem, whatever. [02:27:13.428 – 02:27:22.628] Like, you're not, don't wanna have to censor out your story, and you wanna feel that like you're accepted, all of you, and I think that's what this is about. [02:27:22.628 – 02:27:32.648] The other thing I just wanted to ask, what people's opinions are, 'cause I kind of cringe, in the US at a lot of these wonderful big speaker meetings when people end [02:27:32.648 – 02:27:34.768] with the Lord's Prayer. [02:27:34.768 – 02:27:36.628] And now my mom taught me the Lord's Prayer. [02:27:36.628 – 02:27:41.868] I'm Jewish, but I'm d- not knowing what I cringe about, but it's the art in heaven. [02:27:41.868 – 02:27:46.318] So why, how does that, like, be allowed?

[02:27:46.318 – 02:27:49.548] Well, now I'm hearing all this Orthodox stuff that people want. [02:27:49.548 – 02:27:49.558] Mm. [02:27:49.558 – 02:27:49.559] Mm. [02:27:49.559 – 02:27:51.948] There are people that want it related to the Christianity. [02:27:51.948 – 02:27:56.028] But really, I mean, recovery isn't Christian. [02:27:56.028 – 02:27:58.668] What if you're, you know, not Christian? [02:27:58.668 – 02:27:58.948] Yeah.

[02:27:58.948 – 02:28:00.008] So let's spin that to Jackie. [02:28:00.008 – 02:28:01.268] Jackie, do you want to jump in on that one? [02:28:01.268 – 02:28:02.477] You know. [02:28:02.477 – 02:28:02.968] Thanks. [02:28:02.968 – 02:28:05.068] You open just a can of worms. [02:28:05.068 – 02:28:11.368] Uh, I would say go, come back to hear Reverend W. E. speak on it, 'cause he's one of my favorite speakers. [02:28:11.368 – 02:28:12.958] A- and he has- Oh, okay.

[02:28:12.958 – 02:28:13.037] That's, uh, Jackie … [02:28:13.037 – 02:28:23.108] spoken when he was a Class A trustee, um, he spoke, um, he's a, a minister, and he spoke a lot about, um, the Lord's Prayer and his feelings [02:28:23.108 – 02:28:27.108] on, uh, its use in AA meetings, his concerns about it. [02:28:27.108 – 02:28:36.928] I'm, I'm, I'm gonna just say, like the unders- Bill wrote a letter about the use of the Lord's Prayer at meetings, um, and that one you can kind of find. [02:28:36.928 – 02:28:39.108] Maybe someone here even has, has it. [02:28:39.108 – 02:28:41.788] But you can find it if you Google B. W. [02:28:41.788 – 02:28:43.048] AA Lord's Prayer.

[02:28:43.048 – 02:28:47.748] You know, and what he argued is that it's, it's a custom that just, you know, came… [02:28:47.748 – 02:28:52.748] It did come from the Oxford Group, and then, you know, it was a, a prayer that everyone knew. [02:28:52.748 – 02:28:59.347] Um, you know, the Serenity P. was introduced by a bulletin, an AA bulletin, the, the newsletter. [02:28:59.347 – 02:29:08.808] So it, it was slowly introduced, so it's much, you know, the Lord's Prayer was, uh, and that was like early '40s the Serenity P. started to get adopted. [02:29:08.808 – 02:29:15.428] And Lord's Prayer was being used, um, prior to that when we were part of the Oxford Group. [02:29:15.428 – 02:29:19.287] And, um, you know, th- so yeah. [02:29:19.287 – 02:29:21.268] And there's a affection, a sentiment.

[02:29:21.268 – 02:29:24.468] People don't wanna let go of it. [02:29:24.468 – 02:29:33.308] I, you know, I, Reverend W. E., I'm Jewish, so obviously I had a very complicated relationship with the Lord's Prayer when I was going to meetings. [02:29:33.308 – 02:29:43.438] And then I joined the Back to Basics groups, and then I got all into, like, I would actually close meetings on purpose with it, 'cause I was like, y- and, you know, "Ask yourself what this means to you." So kind [02:29:43.438 – 02:29:44.808] o' attitude about it, right? [02:29:44.808 – 02:29:54.848] So I've actually had phases where I used to say the Lord's Prayer all the time, you know, as a, as a way to show my spiritual open-mindedness, and then I came around back to [02:29:54.848 – 02:29:56.488] not feeling comfortable with it. [02:29:56.488 – 02:30:02.908] Um, but it was Reverend W. E. who pointed out that, you know, the Lord's Prayer is used in Mass.

[02:30:02.908 – 02:30:06.778] So unlike the Serenity P., which is, it is a Christian prayer. [02:30:06.778 – 02:30:16.858] It started as a Christian prayer, but it's really only known now as, um, really, it's really closely associated with AA and recovery, and [02:30:16.858 – 02:30:22.108] it's not something you're gonna hear as a part of a, a ecumenical service. [02:30:22.108 – 02:30:27.708] And so, um, the problem with the Lord's Prayer is that you will hear it as a part of an ecumenical service. [02:30:27.708 – 02:30:38.088] And so perhaps it really, even though there is a long tradition, right, and, and it hearkens back to the feeling of the early Orthodox, um, the Or- Oxford Group meetings [02:30:38.088 – 02:30:46.188] and early Akron AA, and there's a lot of sentiment behind it, you know, it, it does blur the line between religious and spiritual. [02:30:46.188 – 02:30:56.228] Um, and it d- is, it does create a barrier for, um, certain, you know, y- um, you know, I mean, Orthodox

[02:30:56.228 – 02:30:56.428] Jew- Agnostics. [02:30:56.428 – 02:31:00.388] E- well, atheist, agnostics, um, Jews. [02:31:00.388 – 02:31:04.468] I mean, um, I'm not a, I'm not an Orthodox J.. [02:31:04.468 – 02:31:06.858] I'm, I'm a very bad Reformed J.. [02:31:06.858 – 02:31:09.048] I joke bad because, like, I eat bacon. [02:31:09.048 – 02:31:12.388] But, um, you know, and I'm s- fairly secular. [02:31:12.388 – 02:31:15.268] But there are parts of the Talmud and Jewish, um-

[02:31:15.836 – 02:31:20.736] religion that actually specifically says you must not pray in the manner of non-Jews. [02:31:20.736 – 02:31:29.376] And so it actually is a big deal to ask, tell a Jewish person coming to AA to pray on your knees, surrender, say the s- Lord's Prayer. [02:31:29.376 – 02:31:39.716] You know, um, uh, you know, it's interesting that other fellowships like OA, CODA, has a lot more Jewish participation in it than, um, than Alcoholics [02:31:39.716 – 02:31:42.375] Anonymous has less, a, a smaller… [02:31:42.375 – 02:31:52.496] And I think that's also historically maybe related to the fact that a lot of the later fellowships, you know, adopt, or were less likely to adopt the Lord's Prayer [02:31:52.496 – 02:31:53.236] and other things. [02:31:53.236 – 02:31:56.156] So, but, you know, I have a perspective on it, right?

[02:31:56.156 – 02:31:56.385] Mm-hmm. [02:31:56.385 – 02:31:58.276] So I, I fully admit that. [02:31:58.276 – 02:32:04.176] Um, I th- and I'm, the thing I'm glad is that I don't get to decide whether a group do- says the Lord's Prayer or not. [02:32:04.176 – 02:32:04.446] Mm. [02:32:04.446 – 02:32:05.696] The group gets to decide. [02:32:05.696 – 02:32:06.186] That's right. [02:32:06.186 – 02:32:16.236] I will say that when I speak at meetings and I'm asked to end the meeting with the Lord's Prayer, I decline, and I specifically say it's because I'm Jewish.

[02:32:16.236 – 02:32:18.056] Once I made a joke. [02:32:18.056 – 02:32:28.136] W- this was before, and I ended the meeting and they said, "Will you take us out with the Lord's Prayer?" And I said, "Yes, let's take a moment of silence for all the Jews who say [02:32:28.136 – 02:32:29.286] the Lord's Prayer- … [02:32:29.286 – 02:32:31.916] at AA meetings." And, and they laughed. [02:32:31.916 – 02:32:35.036] So they, but I try not to do that anymore. [02:32:35.036 – 02:32:39.276] But, you know, it's, a lot of us are- It's funny though. [02:32:39.276 – 02:32:39.476] Yeah.

[02:32:39.476 – 02:32:40.566] A lot of us are… [02:32:40.566 – 02:32:50.696] But, you know, every time I hold hands and I'm not saying it, uh, which is no one ever gives me a hard time for not saying the Lord's Prayer, but there is this feeling of, I [02:32:50.696 – 02:32:52.476] don't know, complicitness, you know? [02:32:52.476 – 02:32:53.526] Like, so- Mm … [02:32:53.526 – 02:32:57.456] and you're always, like, making eye contact with the other people around the room who aren't saying it. [02:32:57.456 – 02:33:01.386] And it, there is in that moment a separation between the people- Mm … [02:33:01.386 – 02:33:03.436] who are saying it and not saying it, so.

[02:33:03.436 – 02:33:03.596] Mm. [02:33:03.596 – 02:33:07.296] Well, thank you for- I just wanna bring, could I bring up one more thing and this is really- Go on, Jenny. [02:33:07.296 – 02:33:08.516] Yeah, yeah, please. [02:33:08.516 – 02:33:17.296] It's real- it's really an Al-Anon thing, and it's something I, I real have a problem with, that, that the Big Book is not conference approved in Al-Anon. [02:33:17.296 – 02:33:23.976] And the, you know, a lot of meetings now people will say that they do the fourth step the four column way. [02:33:23.976 – 02:33:34.056] And I just wanted to say that I went to an all alcoholism meeting here on Cape C., and at first I loved it 'cause I loved the speakers and e- and most of the people going would introduce [02:33:34.056 – 02:33:37.836] themselves that they were alcoholics and overeaters and this and that.

[02:33:37.836 – 02:33:45.316] But nobody could, the speaker would share, but nobody could share unless they had been through the, the Big Book. [02:33:45.316 – 02:33:53.476] And after a while, I'll tell you, those meetings to me, uh, you know, they got like, you know, I didn't wanna hear the same people all the time. [02:33:53.476 – 02:33:53.706] Mm. [02:33:53.706 – 02:33:57.936] And what's so great about going to AA meetings or any meetings, I mean, newcomers, you know. [02:33:57.936 – 02:34:02.396] I mean, you're just, you're just hearing for two minutes or three minutes. [02:34:02.396 – 02:34:11.396] And they, their reason is they say because we feel that sharing the problem, you know, the, you know, the, you know, sharing the pr- problem isn't as good as sharing a solution. [02:34:11.396 – 02:34:12.416] Of course.

[02:34:12.416 – 02:34:19.836] But, you know, the whole thing about Alcoholics Anonymous is the people, they heard their story from another alcoholic. [02:34:19.836 – 02:34:22.856] So anyway, that's my soapbox and two cents. [02:34:22.856 – 02:34:22.926] Thank you. [02:34:22.926 – 02:34:25.176] I want the Big Book approved by Al-Anon. [02:34:25.176 – 02:34:27.016] Thank you, Jenny. [02:34:27.016 – 02:34:27.776] Good to have you here. [02:34:27.776 – 02:34:29.296] Uh, Hugh, you've been waiting.

[02:34:29.296 – 02:34:32.496] Um, do you wanna jump in? [02:34:32.496 – 02:34:33.696] Yeah. [02:34:33.696 – 02:34:38.146] Jackie, who did you say was also interested in the c- history of the concepts? [02:34:38.146 – 02:34:43.076] Uh, I, I got, Bill S. put me in touch with someone named Jeff B. [02:34:43.076 – 02:34:44.496] That's his name. [02:34:44.496 – 02:34:46.116] I'm not gonna give out his last name. [02:34:46.116 – 02:34:46.696] Okay.

[02:34:46.696 – 02:34:49.366] I don't think he would mind, but, um, I, he- Yeah, I understand that part of it. [02:34:49.366 – 02:34:51.276] He also gave me the contact card. [02:34:51.276 – 02:34:52.356] What? [02:34:52.356 – 02:34:52.506] Uh, I, I understand perfectly. [02:34:52.506 – 02:34:54.236] I was telling you about getting the contact card. [02:34:54.236 – 02:34:54.665] I know him. [02:34:54.665 – 02:34:56.026] You know him, yeah.

[02:34:56.026 – 02:35:01.596] And I believe he's actually putting together a history conference, uh, that will take place at the W. House. [02:35:01.596 – 02:35:06.506] I'm not sure when, but, um, and he'll be doing his concepts presentation there, um, so. [02:35:06.506 – 02:35:13.036] I've actually been trying to find some history for the third legacy procedure, so if you know- Oh, yes. [02:35:13.036 – 02:35:15.516] That's what I've been, that's what I'm interested in. [02:35:15.516 – 02:35:15.526] Right. [02:35:15.526 – 02:35:16.916] So yeah, reach out to Jeff. [02:35:16.916 – 02:35:25.676] Like, I'm gonna pick his brain 'cause, uh, he's done research on this at Stepping S- um, no, maybe not Stepping S., but definitely the General S. Office.

[02:35:25.676 – 02:35:25.706] Right. [02:35:25.706 – 02:35:29.956] So, um- Well, next time you talk to him, if you think about it, ask if you can- Yeah. [02:35:29.956 – 02:35:33.316] And Elise, I believe, Elise probably knows him, I would imagine. [02:35:33.316 – 02:35:37.416] So, um, uh, and so, uh, you can- Well, I know Elise. [02:35:37.416 – 02:35:37.916] You can talk to him. [02:35:37.916 – 02:35:38.525] She's had a good in touch with her. [02:35:38.525 – 02:35:41.016] So you can get maybe the c-contact information.

[02:35:41.016 – 02:35:41.046] Yeah. [02:35:41.046 – 02:35:49.756] And I wanted to say too about the Lord's Prayer, if I remember Bill's letter right, he basically said nobody has to say it, and it won't hurt anybody to listen to it. [02:35:49.756 – 02:35:58.416] But my home group voted 20 years ago to use the Serenity P. instead, and I, like you, I don't say the Lord's Prayer. [02:35:58.416 – 02:36:05.876] I'm Christian, so it's my prayer, but I want people who are new to know they don't have to say it. [02:36:05.876 – 02:36:07.476] Yeah. [02:36:07.476 – 02:36:07.856] Thank you. [02:36:07.856 – 02:36:08.416] Yeah.

[02:36:08.416 – 02:36:09.376] It's, it's hard. [02:36:09.376 – 02:36:09.426] Good. [02:36:09.426 – 02:36:12.656] You know, Bill, I, I, I love most of everything Bill says. [02:36:12.656 – 02:36:15.096] I don't always agree with Bill in everything. [02:36:15.096 – 02:36:15.546] Mm-hmm. [02:36:15.546 – 02:36:25.516] And, you know, Bill doesn't necessarily get to be in the position of saying who's gonna be hurt by, uh, a, a prayer that, you know, he doesn't have a problem with. [02:36:25.516 – 02:36:27.436] So, you know, that's the problem.

[02:36:27.436 – 02:36:28.816] So. [02:36:28.816 – 02:36:38.936] Just on, on the sharing bit, I was just kind of this, you know, when we talk about people sharing, uh, J- Jenny brought up there, and this is on page, let's just say this is on page 159 of Vision [02:36:38.936 – 02:36:39.136] for You. [02:36:39.136 – 02:36:39.646] Just a b- [02:36:39.834 – 02:36:40.764] it's gonna be. [02:36:40.764 – 02:36:48.414] He said, "In addition to these casual get-togethers," you know, talking about the meetings, "it became customary to set apart one night a week for a meeting," right? [02:36:48.414 – 02:36:54.964] "To be attended by anyone or everyone interested in the spiritual way of life." Now here's the point.

[02:36:54.964 – 02:37:05.144] "Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people might bring their problems." And we try and, we try and [02:37:05.144 – 02:37:09.424] introduce that to people who are new to AA, you know, uh, when w- in our home group. [02:37:09.424 – 02:37:18.244] Uh, that we, we set up an hour before the meeting, and we kind of have that window if people wanna share their problems, if they're around a while, and have a cup of tea. [02:37:18.244 – 02:37:19.804] And then after the meeting we stay around as well. [02:37:19.804 – 02:37:24.724] But some people for some reason wanna share their problems in the meeting, regardless of how long they're around. [02:37:24.724 – 02:37:25.964] They just wanna bring their meet- you know. [02:37:25.964 – 02:37:29.084] But it's not something that would attract me to Alcoholics Anonymous.

[02:37:29.084 – 02:37:29.134] Right. [02:37:29.134 – 02:37:31.504] But as you said, each group is autonomous. [02:37:31.504 – 02:37:34.504] I completely agree with you, David. [02:37:34.504 – 02:37:39.984] People with time have no business sh- trying to solve their problems in an AA business. [02:37:39.984 – 02:37:42.024] They're there to provide solutions. [02:37:42.024 – 02:37:45.123] But new people, they can stay whatever they want, really. [02:37:45.123 – 02:37:46.064] Yeah.

[02:37:46.064 – 02:37:47.124] They don't know- Share their story … [02:37:47.124 – 02:37:48.074] they don't know how it works today. [02:37:48.074 – 02:37:48.374] I mean, I have- Yeah … [02:37:48.374 – 02:37:50.174] but I will also say this, that- Mm-hmm … [02:37:50.174 – 02:38:00.644] th- new co- old-timers are also very in dan- sometimes are the ones that are most in danger of, like, hurting themselves and taking a drink when, especially, [02:38:00.644 – 02:38:05.264] and you can't s- you know, I believe in you can't save your face and your ass at the same time. [02:38:05.264 – 02:38:06.684] Uh, but that's what phone calls…

[02:38:06.684 – 02:38:12.984] I mean, I think back in the day, we, I think that what was good about back in the day is people knew each other's numbers. [02:38:12.984 – 02:38:13.074] Mm-hmm. [02:38:13.074 – 02:38:16.964] People did a lot more, like, socializing outside of meetings. [02:38:16.964 – 02:38:22.744] San Francisco, I mean, the pandemic has really hit us hard in terms of fellowship and, and those kind of connections. [02:38:22.744 – 02:38:27.234] And so yeah, you would probably talk about your problems more with your sponsor and with your- Mm. [02:38:27.234 – 02:38:27.235] Mm … [02:38:27.235 – 02:38:29.784] trusted friends than take it to a meeting.

[02:38:29.784 – 02:38:38.304] But I will say that, um, you know, part of, mm, I think, um, sometimes setting an… [02:38:38.304 – 02:38:42.424] I, what I like is how the big book says our story's disclosed in a general way. [02:38:42.424 – 02:38:42.804] Mm-hmm. [02:38:42.804 – 02:38:51.804] It's a general- So i think the problem is not so, the issue is not so much people bringing their problems to the group, it's when we get wrapped up into the spec- specifics of our problems. [02:38:51.804 – 02:38:51.814] Mm-hmm. [02:38:51.814 – 02:38:53.534] And there can be a lot of power- It's a general … [02:38:53.534 – 02:38:56.674] in an old-timer saying, "I'm going through a rough time right now." Um- Yeah.

[02:38:56.674 – 02:38:57.024] Oh, yeah. [02:38:57.024 – 02:38:57.784] Absolutely. [02:38:57.784 – 02:38:58.024] Yeah. [02:38:58.024 – 02:38:58.394] Yeah. [02:38:58.394 – 02:38:58.395] Right? [02:38:58.395 – 02:39:01.804] But I've co- but I know the solution to it, rather than But yeah. [02:39:01.804 – 02:39:01.874] Let's go into it.

[02:39:01.874 – 02:39:08.824] But there have been groups, like RA, like I mentioned Recovery A., where the idea is you share as testimony. [02:39:08.824 – 02:39:10.934] So you only share about how- Yeah. [02:39:10.934 – 02:39:10.935] I remember … [02:39:10.935 – 02:39:12.164] things are better now. [02:39:12.164 – 02:39:12.414] I remember. [02:39:12.414 – 02:39:18.353] And you only sh- and, and that's, that's where i, i take issue with that idea- Mm. [02:39:18.353 – 02:39:18.894] Likewise, yeah …

[02:39:18.894 – 02:39:25.754] that, you know, we only bring the message, you know, not the mess, because sometimes, like, you know. [02:39:25.754 – 02:39:26.513] So I think it's- Mm-hmm … [02:39:26.513 – 02:39:30.884] more about the issue of general, like if you're sharing your problems in a general way- Mm-hmm … [02:39:30.884 – 02:39:35.724] you know, um, you're already part of the solution because you're asking for help. [02:39:35.724 – 02:39:36.664] Thank you. [02:39:36.664 – 02:39:40.264] I go to meetings to help newcomers, not so much to help myself. [02:39:40.264 – 02:39:40.944] Yeah.

[02:39:40.944 – 02:39:44.364] Anna M is, is, put a hand up for the first time tonight. [02:39:44.364 – 02:39:45.244] Anna, hello, Anna. [02:39:45.244 – 02:39:46.044] Hi, Anna. [02:39:46.044 – 02:39:47.284] Hello. [02:39:47.284 – 02:39:48.264] Hello, everybody. [02:39:48.264 – 02:39:48.434] Hello. [02:39:48.434 – 02:39:50.684] I'm sorry I missed the first almost hour.

[02:39:50.684 – 02:39:54.184] No, well, it's, I have to apologize to you for you missing the first time. [02:39:54.184 – 02:39:55.824] Um- Yeah … [02:39:55.824 – 02:40:06.804] but I just wanted to chime in, uh, just briefly on the, the heels of the conversation that's happening right now, which is that I, I don't know if I necessarily [02:40:06.804 – 02:40:14.784] have a problem where people coming in, um, are sharing their difficulties, right? [02:40:14.784 – 02:40:23.464] And I, I'm not about to edit or, you know, s- try to censor somebody who's sharing something. [02:40:23.464 – 02:40:28.644] Uh, and because that's what they really wanna share, or need to share I should say. [02:40:28.644 – 02:40:38.664] And I, I, I, I, I can't, I guess I understand the side on which it's being discussed here right now, but, um, I'm also thinking of the other side of

[02:40:38.664 – 02:40:44.214] the need of sometimes people needing to share just where they're at, how they need to share it- Mm … [02:40:44.214 – 02:40:45.684] and respecting that. [02:40:45.684 – 02:40:48.704] And that doesn't just go for newcomers. [02:40:48.704 – 02:40:54.264] I think that goes for also people who have long-term recovery. [02:40:54.264 – 02:41:04.524] And I'm thinking specifically about now that we've been under COVID for two and a half plus years, or coming close to two and a half plus years. [02:41:04.524 – 02:41:07.034] I'm, I'm not dis- Mm. [02:41:07.034 – 02:41:12.644] I'm gonna pose this question, but it's not a question that I'm asking, uh, necessarily.

[02:41:12.644 – 02:41:23.104] It is, it's, I'm just saying this quest- which is, do you have any idea how many of our AA members [02:41:23.104 – 02:41:33.504] who have been longtime members of Alcoholics Anonymous, and in March of 2020 refused to go to any meetings [02:41:33.504 – 02:41:43.744] because they did not want the online platform, and how many of those members right now for two and a half years have not [02:41:43.744 – 02:41:52.284] gone to, uh, in-person, in-person meetings because they couldn't, and didn't do online meetings, and are now dry alcoholics? [02:41:52.284 – 02:41:55.194] And when those dry alcoholics- Mm. [02:41:55.194 – 02:41:55.195] Mm … [02:41:55.195 – 02:42:03.754] start coming back to meetings, the ones who start coming back to meetings, um, uh, I'm not about-

[02:42:04.012 – 02:42:06.412] To edit or censor what they need to say. [02:42:06.412 – 02:42:08.061] Um, because- Mm … [02:42:08.061 – 02:42:10.592] they're gonna be in a really, really hard place. [02:42:10.592 – 02:42:12.251] Really hard place. [02:42:12.251 – 02:42:19.792] Uh, I almost wanna say possibly just as hard, certainly emotionally and spiritually, as newcomers. [02:42:19.792 – 02:42:25.422] Um, so I, i, I get the side about sharing- Mm … [02:42:25.422 – 02:42:26.302] the solution.

[02:42:26.302 – 02:42:31.631] Um, um, I had to recognize that for myself at some point in my recovery. [02:42:31.631 – 02:42:40.392] Um, but I, I also knew the value of sharing exactly where I was and sharing it exactly how I needed to share it. [02:42:40.392 – 02:42:40.672] Mm-hmm. [02:42:40.672 – 02:42:41.702] But i- Yeah … [02:42:41.702 – 02:42:43.212] learned, and I'll just finish with this. [02:42:43.212 – 02:42:43.302] Mm-hmm. [02:42:43.302 – 02:42:53.332] I also learned w- even with that, those moments in meetings or the meetings that wa- was appropriate to do that

[02:42:53.332 – 02:42:53.522] in. [02:42:53.522 – 02:42:54.712] Yes. [02:42:54.712 – 02:42:55.032] Right? [02:42:55.032 – 02:42:55.412] Well said. [02:42:55.412 – 02:42:56.052] That's a good finish. [02:42:56.052 – 02:42:56.821] So- Yeah … [02:42:56.821 – 02:42:57.182] thanks.

[02:42:57.182 – 02:43:07.392] I mean, I, I think the middle way is really important because it is also complete, like, free-fall sharing in, in extreme detail is a safety [02:43:07.392 – 02:43:08.292] issue. [02:43:08.292 – 02:43:10.832] Like, um, on every side of it. [02:43:10.832 – 02:43:17.292] I was at a meeting where a very young, um, woman was sharing about some pretty explicit sexual things. [02:43:17.292 – 02:43:17.612] Mm-hmm. [02:43:17.612 – 02:43:26.292] And i was concerned about the safety and the, and of the people in attendance, and I was concerned about her safety afterwards as well, right? [02:43:26.292 – 02:43:27.912] And so that's also…

[02:43:27.912 – 02:43:29.682] A- and it was, it's not just young women, right? [02:43:29.682 – 02:43:37.732] But, like, so it's also a safety concern if people get into too much detail about- Mm-hmm … [02:43:37.732 – 02:43:40.292] um, certain very, uh, you know, like I said. [02:43:40.292 – 02:43:46.292] So that's why I think, like, the general way is a good way to approach meetings versus… [02:43:46.292 – 02:43:53.452] And then one-on-one with your sponsor, someone who has, you know, kind of consented to hearing all the, the details, right? [02:43:53.452 – 02:43:55.892] Um, a- and sharing in that. [02:43:55.892 – 02:44:00.172] But, and so that's why I understand Hugh and other people, and I also understand Anna, right?

[02:44:00.172 – 02:44:03.012] And that's what I love about this idea of generous orthodoxy. [02:44:03.012 – 02:44:04.692] And Bill talked about this all the time. [02:44:04.692 – 02:44:05.612] It's not about- Mm … [02:44:05.612 – 02:44:06.192] screens. [02:44:06.192 – 02:44:07.012] It's not about- Mm. [02:44:07.012 – 02:44:07.432] Mm … [02:44:07.432 – 02:44:08.522] censoring people- Mm …

[02:44:08.522 – 02:44:10.962] and, like, just sharing without any… [02:44:10.962 – 02:44:11.932] right? [02:44:11.932 – 02:44:14.252] And then again, you know, we're not silencing people. [02:44:14.252 – 02:44:17.272] There are old-timers who will go up to someone a- and share with them. [02:44:17.272 – 02:44:27.312] I think the issue is when someone goes up to someone who's sharing and says, "You're just sharing the mess, not the message," or they're, they're not being kind, you know, and they're not really guiding them on how to [02:44:27.312 – 02:44:34.752] share, right, in a, in a, in a, in a safe way, um, that makes the meeting a safe place for everyone. [02:44:34.752 – 02:44:36.302] So, you know, we're all- Yeah …

[02:44:36.302 – 02:44:36.872] learning. [02:44:36.872 – 02:44:37.852] We're all learning. [02:44:37.852 – 02:44:39.262] But i think in general- Yeah … [02:44:39.262 – 02:44:42.572] cutting people off is, is never a good look during a meeting. [02:44:42.572 – 02:44:44.942] Yeah, and I just wanna quickly say that i- Mm … [02:44:44.942 – 02:44:48.712] have experienced the same thing, not just with women, but with men. [02:44:48.712 – 02:44:49.302] And i can- Yes …

[02:44:49.302 – 02:44:58.392] think of two people specifically, where these people have shared something that a, they engaged in, in a, in a very detailed and explicit way. [02:44:58.392 – 02:44:58.731] Mm-hmm. [02:44:58.731 – 02:45:07.832] And they k- and, and I knew the moment that that information spilled out of their mouths, and this was, uh, both in, in-person and online meeting. [02:45:07.832 – 02:45:17.872] The moment it spilled out of their mouth, I knew that they were completely embarrassed by what they had just said and felt completely awkward, [02:45:17.872 – 02:45:19.532] and they never returned to the meeting. [02:45:19.532 – 02:45:21.882] Because they put themselves- Mm … [02:45:21.882 – 02:45:23.392] in that situation.

[02:45:23.392 – 02:45:23.842] Mm-hmm. [02:45:23.842 – 02:45:24.322] Um, so. [02:45:24.322 – 02:45:26.312] A- and this is guidance to sponsorship as well, isn't it? [02:45:26.312 – 02:45:26.672] A number… [02:45:26.672 – 02:45:29.682] This is great, but we're gonna jump over to, we have a number of hands up. [02:45:29.682 – 02:45:32.272] Anna, I hope i didn't cut you off too quick there, but we're going to Mike G. [02:45:32.272 – 02:45:33.292] in Atlanta again.

[02:45:33.292 – 02:45:34.572] Mike, thank you. [02:45:34.572 – 02:45:37.772] Thanks, David. [02:45:37.772 – 02:45:44.252] Uh, yeah, i, I just wanted to mention that I posted, um, Ward E.'s talk in the, in the chat, the link there. [02:45:44.252 – 02:45:48.372] Um, I think it was called the We Agnostics, Atheists, and Freethinkers in AA at the time. [02:45:48.372 – 02:45:50.712] I think it might have been in Santa M. maybe. [02:45:50.712 – 02:45:51.402] 2014. [02:45:51.402 – 02:45:52.832] Anyway, so he was a keynote speaker.

[02:45:52.832 – 02:45:54.692] It's a great, great talk. [02:45:54.692 – 02:46:04.712] Um, but, um, you know, the interesting thing about the, the, the, the groups and the meetings, especially on Zoom, it's, there's a lot of interest- I love the autonomy [02:46:04.712 – 02:46:05.252] of the group. [02:46:05.252 – 02:46:10.812] And, um, because, you know, I, I can go to Hollywood L. Night and just have, I mean, a shit show. [02:46:10.812 – 02:46:11.652] It's just insane. [02:46:11.652 – 02:46:13.112] B- and I… [02:46:13.112 – 02:46:15.612] You look at it and say, "How can people s- say so?" They do.

[02:46:15.612 – 02:46:16.232] They do. [02:46:16.232 – 02:46:16.832] It works. [02:46:16.832 – 02:46:17.412] It works. [02:46:17.412 – 02:46:19.232] And, and it's just a beautiful thing. [02:46:19.232 – 02:46:20.672] So that was all i had to say. [02:46:20.672 – 02:46:22.062] Thank you, Mike, for that. [02:46:22.062 – 02:46:22.632] Marsha.

[02:46:22.632 – 02:46:23.432] Hello, Marsha. [02:46:23.432 – 02:46:25.012] Hi. [02:46:25.012 – 02:46:25.532] Hi. [02:46:25.532 – 02:46:35.712] Um, pursuant to this conversation right now, um, I go to a meeting where there is a person who has been sober [02:46:35.712 – 02:46:46.352] for four decades and more, uh, who has, uh, gone through a very difficult divorce, uh, [02:46:46.352 – 02:46:49.692] after being married for a couple of decades at least. [02:46:49.692 – 02:46:56.672] And this is a very hostile kind of situation from their spouse.

[02:46:56.672 – 02:47:06.992] And, um, to the point that this person has become destitute, and is virtually [02:47:06.992 – 02:47:17.012] living on the streets after having been a housewife, uh, in a very affluent situation for [02:47:17.012 – 02:47:17.992] decades. [02:47:17.992 – 02:47:27.872] And the person is now, um, homeless, and is living off of friends, even some people in AA [02:47:28.120 – 02:47:28.920] who have helped her. [02:47:28.920 – 02:47:32.500] It's very, very, very difficult situation. [02:47:32.500 – 02:47:33.060] Mm-hmm.

[02:47:33.060 – 02:47:43.180] And she comes to the meeting and she shares her gratitude about being sober in, even in this horrific situation [02:47:43.180 – 02:47:43.680] for her. [02:47:43.680 – 02:47:54.080] However, and, and she may share whatever chapter she's in that day about, you know, I, I tried to talk to Social S. [02:47:54.080 – 02:47:54.920] about getting help. [02:47:54.920 – 02:48:00.080] I tried to talk to, I talked to Human R. about getting help, et cetera, et cetera. [02:48:00.080 – 02:48:04.600] Every, every day she comes and shares about what's going on with her. [02:48:04.600 – 02:48:14.660] And, um, there's been quite a hue and cry from the other people in that meeting about this person is a bad example

[02:48:14.660 – 02:48:25.280] for the newcomers because your life, you're supposed to be sharing about how good your life is sober, and, uh, and she's talking about this situation [02:48:25.280 – 02:48:28.620] that she's just been in for weeks and months, you know? [02:48:28.620 – 02:48:31.520] So I just wanted to throw that in there. [02:48:31.520 – 02:48:31.600] Mm-hmm. [02:48:31.600 – 02:48:31.900] You know? [02:48:31.900 – 02:48:42.140] I continue to encourage this person to share whatever they're going through that day, and, um, you know, it just, just [02:48:42.140 – 02:48:43.120] kind of shows.

[02:48:43.120 – 02:48:52.570] And it, and it's funny because that same camp of people that have that attitude are the same ones who- Yeah … [02:48:52.570 – 02:48:56.700] really don't seem to want to share their own experience, strength, and hope. [02:48:56.700 – 02:49:00.480] They like to come to the table, w- we call them tables, you know, still. [02:49:00.480 – 02:49:01.080] Mm-hmm. [02:49:01.080 – 02:49:01.250] Mm-hmm. [02:49:01.250 – 02:49:01.251] Mm-hmm. [02:49:01.251 – 02:49:09.120] Um, you know, they come to the meeting and then they wanna share their opinions and thoughts and philosophy on the 12 steps.

[02:49:09.120 – 02:49:09.640] That's right. [02:49:09.640 – 02:49:13.840] And all of this kind of stuff in their share instead of sharing their own experience. [02:49:13.840 – 02:49:24.120] I, I think the problem might, might be that Bill W. put in step five in the 12 by 12, which we're just looking at, he says, "Too much guilt and remorse might cause us to dramatize and exaggerate our shortcomings. [02:49:24.120 – 02:49:29.630] Our anger and hurt pride might be the smokescreen under which we are hiding some of our defects." Mm. [02:49:29.630 – 02:49:38.940] Basically, if people are not aware of their underlying issues, the exact nature of their wrongs, if they just keep going around in a circle, like for a new person, I was like that myself. [02:49:38.940 – 02:49:48.600] I hadn't done a step four, a self-appraisal on myself, but after I'd done that and took guidance, I then had an understa- more of a deeper understanding of what was really wrong with me. [02:49:48.600 – 02:49:51.420] Self-centered fear, for example, that I was driven with.

[02:49:51.420 – 02:49:54.960] But I hear what you're saying and I, you know, I'm not saying, I, I wouldn't censor anyone. [02:49:54.960 – 02:49:58.320] I, I'd love to be the policeman in here that, that tells people what they can and can't share. [02:49:58.320 – 02:50:00.320] I'd, I'd end up in a room on my own again. [02:50:00.320 – 02:50:01.440] I know that for a fact. [02:50:01.440 – 02:50:07.580] But I, I, I think it's essential that I do get to the exact, understand the exact nature of my wrongs. [02:50:07.580 – 02:50:15.700] And nowhere have I got more encouragement when I was a newcomer than Alcoholics Anonymous, and I, hopefully I'll stay eternally, uh, always grateful for that. [02:50:15.700 – 02:50:19.480] I get shivers when I think of that, that moment, that, that young man I was.

[02:50:19.480 – 02:50:23.200] But Marsha, thank you, and I don't mean to be jumping around, but I have Nick P. [02:50:23.200 – 02:50:23.590] coming in. [02:50:23.590 – 02:50:28.860] I know Nick is gonna bring something up that well, I, well, I don't know what he's gonna say, but I'm sure he's gonna say something that's gonna get me thinking. [02:50:28.860 – 02:50:29.560] Nick? [02:50:29.560 – 02:50:30.899] No, thank you for calling on me. [02:50:30.899 – 02:50:31.230] So proud of you. [02:50:31.230 – 02:50:32.460] Thank you, Marsha.

[02:50:32.460 – 02:50:32.609] Mm-hmm. [02:50:32.609 – 02:50:33.180] Yeah. [02:50:33.180 – 02:50:34.070] I, I'm Nick. [02:50:34.070 – 02:50:34.820] I'm an alcoholic. [02:50:34.820 – 02:50:36.340] Um- Hello, Nick … [02:50:36.340 – 02:50:40.790] you know, I, I've got some, uh, years under my belt, and do you know what? [02:50:40.790 – 02:50:45.300] You know, nobody comes up to me in meetings and says, "Nick, you're really doing well this week.

[02:50:45.300 – 02:50:48.230] You know, you haven't had a drink this week." Yeah. [02:50:48.230 – 02:50:56.700] You know, everybody expects you as a, an old-timer to be like philosophical and have all the right words for all the newcomers, and that's not the case, you know. [02:50:56.700 – 02:50:59.560] It's been many years since I've sponsored a newcomer. [02:50:59.560 – 02:51:04.010] The people I seem to sponsor are the people that have been around four or five years that haven't- Mm … [02:51:04.010 – 02:51:07.380] picked up all these spiritual tools, and that's not their problem. [02:51:07.380 – 02:51:10.940] It's just not enough people going around doing the stuff that they're meant to be doing. [02:51:10.940 – 02:51:12.640] You know, they're giving them people…

[02:51:12.640 – 02:51:17.340] You know, my, my impression is that people are giving people opinions- Yeah … [02:51:17.340 – 02:51:18.690] rather than what it says within that big book. [02:51:18.690 – 02:51:24.170] You know, and I, and I just think like I've, you know, I'm practicing being a nobody at the moment. [02:51:24.170 – 02:51:26.660] I really wanna be a nobody, you know. [02:51:26.660 – 02:51:29.000] And the, the reason I say that is because I'm listening. [02:51:29.000 – 02:51:32.040] And I just think that AA's going through another period. [02:51:32.040 – 02:51:42.160] Like when I first come to Alcoholics Anonymous, everybody wanted to be a psychologist or a psychotherapist, and then we went through the whole episode of everybody listening to Eckhart T., you know, and,

[02:51:42.160 – 02:51:43.740] uh, my sponsor was really into that. [02:51:43.740 – 02:51:51.220] You know, and then gradually, you know, what happened was that we got, we started to look in the big book and look at some spiritual solutions to our problems. [02:51:51.220 – 02:52:01.320] Started rever- reaffirming the steps, you know, and that's, that's happened, you know, 15 years ago, 12, 15 years ago in my area, if you talked about God you [02:52:01.320 – 02:52:03.540] was almost like shunned upon, you know. [02:52:03.540 – 02:52:13.540] And I've been to a- I've been invited to atheist meetings where, you know, they said to me, "Don't speak about God." And I said, "Well, I'm gonna talk about my experience of the steps." And, uh, at the end of it, [02:52:13.540 – 02:52:19.580] you know, the meeting's been passed back to me to do the Serenity P. and these people will put their hands together and bow their heads. [02:52:19.580 – 02:52:21.660] You know, and they're meant to be atheists, you know.

[02:52:21.660 – 02:52:31.480] There's all sorts of crazy things going on, you know, but the thing is that AA meetings are not meant to be places of like, uh, thought or, or religion. [02:52:31.480 – 02:52:40.360] They're, they're places that, that people come because they're unwell, you know, and we should treat them as that, with dignity and respect, and that's where we learn our tolerance from- Mm-hmm … [02:52:40.360 – 02:52:41.360] for our own benefit. [02:52:41.360 – 02:52:43.380] But I, I just want to spread a few other words. [02:52:43.380 – 02:52:51.580] Like, uh, Jackie, I, I heard your speech last week and I heard your share this week, you know, and I, I, I'm just like, you know, keep it simple sort of guy, you know? [02:52:52.228 – 02:52:55.808] You know, and I'm not a great f- I'm not in favor of, um… [02:52:55.808 – 02:53:02.848] And this is from my own experiences, 'cause my external life outside of Alcoholics Anonymous is, is very different than my life inside.

[02:53:02.848 – 02:53:08.507] And I mean, I'm a, I'm a contrast, and I don't be- I also don't believe us saying these words to effect. [02:53:08.507 – 02:53:18.508] But you know, I, I really disapprove of women's groups, gay groups, lesbian groups, and all those sort of groups because first and foremost, in Alcoholics [02:53:18.508 – 02:53:26.748] Anonymous, I identify myself as an alcoholic, and that's non-discriminative between sex, gender, or sexuality or anything else. [02:53:26.748 – 02:53:30.708] And that's the only organization I've ever joined where it could be like that. [02:53:30.708 – 02:53:33.868] You know, and I've been a, I, I'm a, I'm a lifelong socialist. [02:53:33.868 – 02:53:40.268] You know, outside of AA, I will fight for people's rights, I will fight for their integrity and, you know, and everything else. [02:53:40.268 – 02:53:47.768] But in AA, you know, I, I like Bill's vision, you know, that you're, you're be in a room with people that you normally wouldn't mix with.

[02:53:47.768 – 02:53:49.808] And that hits me on two points. [02:53:49.808 – 02:53:59.968] One is, that's great, but secondly is that if we start being secretary, sec- sectarian in, in, in having all these groups, what happens [02:53:59.968 – 02:54:01.258] to the lesbian that turns up? [02:54:01.258 – 02:54:02.798] What happens to the gay bloke that turns up? [02:54:02.798 – 02:54:06.688] What happens to the women that turn up, and there isn't women at these meetings anymore? [02:54:06.688 – 02:54:10.228] Because they don't know the inner workings of Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:54:10.228 – 02:54:15.748] They just wanna come to a meeting, like I did, to find out what was going on and how I could get well.

[02:54:15.748 – 02:54:19.488] And that's what's happening, and I just think we're making it too complicated. [02:54:19.488 – 02:54:22.768] The same thing with this new language, you know? [02:54:22.768 – 02:54:32.868] You know, are we gonna have a book, you know, hope we don't, in a patronizing way, but it will be smoted as that in my thoughts, that, you know, the Dummies G. to the 12 Step [02:54:32.868 – 02:54:35.008] Program, 'cause that's what it would be called. [02:54:35.008 – 02:54:45.178] You know, because the 12, the steps, the 12 step program is built within those first 164 pages, and I'm not seeing people stand up in meetings and say, "This language [02:54:45.178 – 02:54:46.348] I do not understand. [02:54:46.348 – 02:54:56.408] I'm walking out of Alcoholics Anonymous," or, um, "This sponsor is not explaining to these to me simply enough to, to, for me to get well." You know,

[02:54:56.408 – 02:55:03.748] I do find that people are getting well still, that me- people are being drawn to Alcoholics Anonymous because the success rate is so high. [02:55:03.748 – 02:55:10.728] I hear, you know, the NHS in this country, doctors, psychiatrists telling people, "Go to Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:55:10.728 – 02:55:15.088] When you're ready, they will be able to help you." And that's- Nick, can you just bring it to a close, please? [02:55:15.088 – 02:55:15.608] Thanks, Nick. [02:55:15.608 – 02:55:16.908] Can you, can you bring it to a close? [02:55:16.908 – 02:55:18.108] Yeah, I'll bring it to a close. [02:55:18.108 – 02:55:24.528] I just think we're making things far too complicated, and I think we just need to simplify things and go back to those basic terms.

[02:55:24.528 – 02:55:26.668] If you're unwell, come to Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:55:26.668 – 02:55:28.848] Thank you, Nick. [02:55:28.848 – 02:55:29.707] A lot of good stuff there. [02:55:29.707 – 02:55:30.548] If anyone… [02:55:30.548 – 02:55:34.448] Jackie, if you wanna comment on, uh, we, w- if not, we'll go straight to Benny, but. [02:55:34.448 – 02:55:37.488] I mean, I, I respect Nick's opinion, you know? [02:55:37.488 – 02:55:46.088] And, um, yeah, I, uh, and I think, um, I mean, as nothing…

[02:55:46.088 – 02:55:54.868] I mean, I respect Nick's opinion, and I, I, un- I understand, um, why it might be viewed as unnecessary complications or segregation. [02:55:54.868 – 02:56:03.428] Obviously, I'm someone who, you know, believes in, uh, the usefulness of women's groups and, and gay groups and young people's groups. [02:56:03.428 – 02:56:11.268] I also, uh, you know, um, can sympathize with people who feel not inclu- you know, not included in those. [02:56:11.268 – 02:56:20.068] Um, I remember, uh, an older gentleman ca- came to one of my young people's meetings, and we were talking about special composition groups. [02:56:20.068 – 02:56:27.368] This was, like, summer of 2020, height, a bunch of, like, groups were starting just for, um, Black indigenous people of color. [02:56:27.368 – 02:56:37.368] And I remember this person, he was gay, but he was a white man, and he said, you know, like, "I, I don't want, you know, women and people of color to disappear from my meetings. [02:56:37.368 – 02:56:38.388] I needed that.

[02:56:38.388 – 02:56:40.618] I needed to be civilized." Mm-hmm. [02:56:40.618 – 02:56:49.848] And the problem is it's not my role as a woman to help men become less sexist or to become more civilized. [02:56:49.848 – 02:56:56.528] I'm looking, when I'm new, to come to a place where I can recover in safety and identify with people. [02:56:56.528 – 02:56:58.908] Um, and, um, and I… [02:56:58.908 – 02:57:08.248] So for me, I look at a lot of things as safety and accessibility issues, and it's not up to me to decide whether what makes someone feel safe or not. [02:57:08.248 – 02:57:11.628] So all that matters is that it's alcoholics gathering together. [02:57:11.628 – 02:57:12.348] Now, they might- Mm-hmm …

[02:57:12.348 – 02:57:17.778] be women gathering together, young people gathering together, but they're still alcoholics gathering together. [02:57:17.778 – 02:57:24.008] And majority of women are getting sober in mixed meetings, majority of gay people are probably getting sober in mixed meetings. [02:57:24.008 – 02:57:28.768] These are just, um, another, an, a different kind of group, you know? [02:57:28.768 – 02:57:28.898] Mm-hmm. [02:57:28.898 – 02:57:38.628] And they, they serve a function that a, a mixed meeting at this current day and time in our reality in the worlds we live in can't always function. [02:57:38.628 – 02:57:39.608] So, you know. [02:57:39.608 – 02:57:42.968] But I sympathize with people who, um, get sad.

[02:57:42.968 – 02:57:49.488] Um, I'll just finish by saying I have a service sponsee who started a women's group, and something happened during fellowship. [02:57:49.488 – 02:57:53.088] Uh, uh, s- a racist remark was said during fellowship. [02:57:53.088 – 02:58:00.108] Um, and it wasn't even clear whether one of the women of the group was saying it during fellowship or it was something that was being said outside. [02:58:00.108 – 02:58:10.408] And what ended up happening is a, a number of, uh, women of c- you know, the way the group handled, uh, this problem and things that came up, a number of women [02:58:10.408 – 02:58:14.908] left and decided to join a, a, a BIPOC women's group instead. [02:58:14.908 – 02:58:16.258] Um, and my under- [02:58:16.448 – 02:58:26.478] My sponsee was sad because they were like, "This group has helped me so much, and it's the most, it w- it used to be the most diverse group I was a part of." And you know, I just told her, I said, "Look, you guys are

[02:58:26.478 – 02:58:28.048] working on your safety material. [02:58:28.048 – 02:58:29.168] You're talking about it. [02:58:29.168 – 02:58:31.008] You're, you're talking about the traditions. [02:58:31.008 – 02:58:41.048] If people need to leave for now to feel safe, eh, then, like, just let them do what they need to do for their recovery, and you work on making your meeting as [02:58:41.048 – 02:58:51.148] welcoming and safe and accessible and S. of a meeting as possible, and people will return, you know?" So I don't try to make anyone feel [02:58:51.148 – 02:58:52.098] bad because they feel… [02:58:52.098 – 02:58:55.828] I went through a period of time when I just had to go to women's meetings only.

[02:58:55.828 – 02:59:05.468] I just did not feel safe at meetings where there were men because of what I was going through in my process and my trauma and, and stuff like that. [02:59:05.468 – 02:59:11.448] And, um, it was, and then one day I realized I had nothing to be afraid of from the men in AA. [02:59:11.448 – 02:59:19.208] I realized that I was actually afraid of myself and not being able to have boundaries with men, and I returned to mixed meetings. [02:59:19.208 – 02:59:29.348] But I, I think I would've stopped going to meetings all, all together if there were no women's meetings, you know, um, at that time in my life 'cause I just simply couldn't [02:59:29.348 – 02:59:39.368] be in a room, uh, around the things that were happening and the things that were happening to my sponsees and the reality of certain safety issues that happen with [02:59:39.368 – 02:59:41.268] marginalized groups in mixed meetings. [02:59:41.268 – 02:59:42.228] Mm.

[02:59:42.228 – 02:59:44.528] So I just, I, to each their own, right? [02:59:44.528 – 02:59:46.848] Live and let live, as the Big Book says. [02:59:46.848 – 02:59:49.248] Thank you, Jackie. [02:59:49.248 – 02:59:51.268] Nick, do you wanna quick respond to that, or are you okay? [02:59:51.268 – 02:59:52.938] No, okay. [02:59:52.938 – 02:59:59.048] Well, you know, we, we, I've, we've seen the same in, you know, AA's not unique in a sense. [02:59:59.048 – 03:00:06.678] You know, we, we had a woman that's truly frightened of some, the male attitude within, within the meetings, and we approached the men about their attitude.

[03:00:06.678 – 03:00:08.868] And we all learned from that process, you know? [03:00:08.868 – 03:00:18.108] And, you know, many of the perpetrators of this, uh, violence or bad temper or, or attitude towards women, m- men need to take responsibility for it. [03:00:18.108 – 03:00:22.608] You know, but we only do that if we work alongside each other, you know? [03:00:22.608 – 03:00:23.158] Mm. [03:00:23.158 – 03:00:32.588] And that's what's different about Alcoholics Anonymous in the sense that we're there primarily to help the newcomer, and primarily because we're alcoholics, and that's what unites us all. [03:00:32.588 – 03:00:38.468] So it just strikes me, Nick, that, you know, it, it's important that it's a S. group in place, I think is essential, isn't it? [03:00:38.468 – 03:00:38.478] Yeah.

[03:00:38.478 – 03:00:39.508] Depends on the S. group. [03:00:39.508 – 03:00:39.658] That's great. [03:00:39.658 – 03:00:49.868] In the group consciousness, you know, it's ha- it's having the guts to sort, like, I brought it up at a group conference that we was behaving like pricks, excuse my language, towards women. [03:00:49.868 – 03:00:56.508] And th- you know, it wasn't a woman that was doing that, and that, that really rocked the boat to a certain degree, you know? [03:00:56.508 – 03:01:01.668] And, uh, you know, it's, it's as men we gotta appreciate, you know, I've sponsored women. [03:01:01.668 – 03:01:10.728] You know, I've sponsored women through domestic violence and things like that because I was a perpetrator of domestic violence, you know, and I understand that better than anybody else, you know? [03:01:10.728 – 03:01:17.428] But the thing is, is that, you know, if we've gotta recover, we've gotta recover from all aspects of our, of our lives and past lives, you know?

[03:01:17.428 – 03:01:18.848] And that's what, what it's there for. [03:01:18.848 – 03:01:28.008] But I just think you, AA can be unique, and we should never lose that sight of that light, that we can be people that wouldn't normally mix, you know? [03:01:28.008 – 03:01:30.288] And, uh, we need to work towards that constantly. [03:01:30.288 – 03:01:31.028] Well said, Nick. [03:01:31.028 – 03:01:32.208] That's beautiful. [03:01:32.208 – 03:01:34.128] Um- May I, may I say one more thing? [03:01:34.128 – 03:01:34.708] Yeah, go ahead Jackie.

[03:01:34.708 – 03:01:35.588] Yeah, yeah, please do. [03:01:35.588 – 03:01:36.658] Ben, yeah, Ben, yeah. [03:01:36.658 – 03:01:46.768] I don't know how many people have had this experience of attending an AA meeting, a mixed meeting, and the s- people who are raising their hands to speak one after the other are men. [03:01:46.768 – 03:01:52.587] And then f- a woman raises their hand finally to speak, and then suddenly other women start raising their hands. [03:01:52.587 – 03:01:55.168] So the problem is we're still human, right? [03:01:55.168 – 03:02:01.568] And the truth is, is, like, participation of women in AA increases when there are more women. [03:02:01.568 – 03:02:05.028] And women, we know this from outside studies, right?

[03:02:05.028 – 03:02:14.848] G- g- uh, young girls who go to schools where it's, uh, all women schools, they do better in math and science 'cause they speak up and they participate more. [03:02:14.848 – 03:02:17.208] So that's just the reality of our society. [03:02:17.208 – 03:02:20.728] Sometimes it's very difficult to participate fully. [03:02:20.728 – 03:02:20.918] Yeah, I, I, that's fair. [03:02:20.918 – 03:02:25.218] We are responsible for our own recovery, but that's why I'm just saying it's a tool, right? [03:02:25.218 – 03:02:26.768] It's a tool, right? [03:02:26.768 – 03:02:28.238] So it- Yeah, I, I, I fully understand …

[03:02:28.238 – 03:02:29.488] it helps people find their voice. [03:02:29.488 – 03:02:32.508] I fully under- I, I just need to say the last thing. [03:02:32.508 – 03:02:33.038] Yeah. [03:02:33.038 – 03:02:37.128] You know, I, I, I totally understand the way the world works. [03:02:37.128 – 03:02:42.008] You know, like, there's two of us that's, that we, we run conventions in the South E. of England. [03:02:42.008 – 03:02:43.208] It's me and a woman. [03:02:43.208 – 03:02:53.208] Now, I fully know that if she's running the lead on, on running the tickets and that side of the aspect of running, of, of, she's the public face of the con- convention, and I know

[03:02:53.208 – 03:02:56.768] that more women will come because of that than if I was doing that role. [03:02:56.768 – 03:03:00.948] Whereas my role is doing the logistics of setting up all the speakers and everything else. [03:03:00.948 – 03:03:04.228] So I understand how our, our life works, you know? [03:03:04.228 – 03:03:11.408] But it's, uh, it doesn't direct, distract me from the fact that, you know, harmony can be created in one environment called Alcoholics Anonymous. [03:03:11.408 – 03:03:19.348] You know, men can learn equally from the upsets of women and the traumas of women, and that can happen within Alcoholics Anonymous as well. [03:03:19.348 – 03:03:29.368] I, I don't, I don't turn my back and walk out just because a woman's speaking because I have no similarities, 'cause I, I normally have a lot of similarities with wo- uh, as do with any other [03:03:29.368 – 03:03:32.058] speakers when they're talking about their drinking and their alcoholism.

[03:03:32.058 – 03:03:37.028] But I'm just saying we don't have to conform to the way the world works. [03:03:37.028 – 03:03:40.378] We can be different, and I think Bill's vision was that we could be different [03:03:41.276 – 03:03:46.516] Even though there has been a struggle outside, and sometimes those struggles do come into our Co-dependents Anonymous. [03:03:46.516 – 03:03:56.516] You know, and, uh, you know, that's why I love the bottom-up, uh, procedure within our Co-dependents Anonymous, 'cause it does give us [03:03:56.516 – 03:04:01.306] the option to tackle, to tackle these difficult questions that we ask that are inside each of us. [03:04:01.306 – 03:04:01.307] Brilliant. [03:04:01.307 – 03:04:03.396] Nick, that, Nick, I think we, we, we need to cl- uh, that's great.

[03:04:03.396 – 03:04:03.896] That's brilliant. [03:04:03.896 – 03:04:05.576] I'd listen to you for another 10 minutes, but that's great. [03:04:05.576 – 03:04:07.416] I think we just- Ben has been waiting. [03:04:07.416 – 03:04:11.636] We'll just go straight to Ben, uh, and we close shortly, and then we go Dan and then Elise. [03:04:11.636 – 03:04:12.776] G- Ben? [03:04:12.776 – 03:04:14.256] I'm Ben. [03:04:14.256 – 03:04:14.655] Oh.

[03:04:14.655 – 03:04:16.596] Thank you for waiting, Ben. [03:04:16.596 – 03:04:16.606] I'm Ben. [03:04:16.606 – 03:04:16.607] I'm Ben. [03:04:16.607 – 03:04:17.216] Appreciate it. [03:04:17.216 – 03:04:17.436] Mm-hmm. [03:04:17.436 – 03:04:18.736] Yeah, no, no problem. [03:04:18.736 – 03:04:20.216] Thanks very much for your talk.

[03:04:20.216 – 03:04:22.936] I've heard many of them, and I enjoy hearing you speak, Jackie. [03:04:22.936 – 03:04:24.676] It's, uh, great information. [03:04:24.676 – 03:04:25.516] Thanks so much. [03:04:25.516 – 03:04:35.536] Um, uh, on the subject of the easy to comprehend book, I'm not a huge fan of it, but I do hope that, A, that the General S. [03:04:35.536 – 03:04:45.795] Conference for North A. gets it straight and brings that book back under the purview of the General S. Conference rather than AA [03:04:45.795 – 03:04:48.686] World S. where they've left it currently. [03:04:48.686 – 03:04:57.136] Uh, as it stands now, as I understand it, the book could just be published by AA without it actually being, uh, coming back to the floor, which I don't think is right.

[03:04:57.136 – 03:05:06.956] Beyond that, as long as the groups and/or meetings are following the traditions and the concepts, I think it's fine to have these special purpose meetings. [03:05:06.956 – 03:05:08.156] They've gone on forever. [03:05:08.156 – 03:05:10.336] But I do understand the points made. [03:05:10.336 – 03:05:17.816] But what I wanted to share actually was, uh, in a story I think called A Drunk L. Me, it was on the Lord's Prayer issue. [03:05:17.816 – 03:05:18.956] That's when I raised my hand. [03:05:18.956 – 03:05:23.056] Uh, the, the, the writer of the story, it's the one right before acceptance. [03:05:23.056 – 03:05:26.776] Uh, it, it's the one right before acceptance is the answer.

[03:05:26.776 – 03:05:30.136] But the writer says, "The last big hurdle was closing the meeting with the Lord's Prayer. [03:05:30.136 – 03:05:40.176] As a Jew, I was uncomfortable with it and decided to speak to my sponsor about it." So I, I, uh, so I said, "Oh," and he said, "What's the problem?" "Well, [03:05:40.176 – 03:05:47.136] I'm Jewish, and it's not a Jewish prayer." Well then he said, "Say it in Jewish." And I said, "It would still be the Lord's Prayer, right?" He said, "Yes. [03:05:47.136 – 03:05:49.215] So then say something else you like. [03:05:49.215 – 03:05:57.276] Your higher power, whatever you call it, is helping you, and you need to say thanks." And the, the s- storywriter goes on to say, "That was a big step for me. [03:05:57.276 – 03:06:07.316] I finally began to separate the religious aspects from my life from AA's spiritual program," which I really thought was interesting and sort of, um, you know, worth [03:06:07.316 – 03:06:09.396] noting as we discuss that.

[03:06:09.396 – 03:06:11.916] So I'll be safe now and drive a little bit better. [03:06:11.916 – 03:06:13.616] Thanks a lot for this meeting, guys. [03:06:13.616 – 03:06:14.376] Bye-bye. [03:06:14.376 – 03:06:14.776] Thank you. [03:06:14.776 – 03:06:15.336] Thank you, Ben. [03:06:15.336 – 03:06:25.356] So, uh, in terms of the General S. Conference, what you talked about, it is actually very true that normally a translation of the big book does not need [03:06:25.356 – 03:06:26.836] to go through the conference process.

[03:06:26.836 – 03:06:28.736] The publishing department works on it. [03:06:28.736 – 03:06:31.676] The conference doesn't approve any of the other translations. [03:06:31.676 – 03:06:33.936] Um, it's just under the purview. [03:06:33.936 – 03:06:44.016] But with this particular translation being a plain language, um, uh, translation into fifth grade reading level English, uh, the publishing [03:06:44.016 – 03:06:47.396] department has decided to really involve the conference. [03:06:47.396 – 03:06:54.396] So there was a, a progress report in this year's background material, and I'm sure we'll hear some of that progress from our delegates. [03:06:54.396 – 03:06:58.916] Um, whether or not the conference will be able to do the final approval, I don't know.

[03:06:58.916 – 03:07:08.916] My guess is that they will be involved very much so because, uh, uh, J- GSO and, um, publishing is aware of how, um, how strongly [03:07:08.916 – 03:07:10.056] people feel about this. [03:07:10.056 – 03:07:12.816] And so it's, so you're right in that fact. [03:07:12.816 – 03:07:22.976] But we don't really know what, how, what the approval process will be like because this is the first time that the General S. Conference has ever been involved in a translation. [03:07:22.976 – 03:07:25.296] Oh. [03:07:25.296 – 03:07:26.396] Didn't know that. [03:07:26.396 – 03:07:27.416] Got it.

[03:07:27.416 – 03:07:27.876] Thank you. [03:07:27.876 – 03:07:29.306] I didn't know it was in the background info. [03:07:29.306 – 03:07:29.326] Mm-hmm. [03:07:29.326 – 03:07:38.296] And I also hope they h- hold it to just this one book and don't do multiple versions, whether it's a gender-neutrified version. [03:07:38.296 – 03:07:42.516] Like, just one version that d- that differs I think would be a good idea. [03:07:42.516 – 03:07:52.176] Easy to comprehend and whatever else they might do in the future would be, I think, a wise move rather than having- The background material has some samples of some of it. [03:07:52.176 – 03:07:53.436] So I think it's really interesting.

[03:07:53.436 – 03:08:03.656] So if you can reach out to your local delegate or district officer and say, "Hey, can I see the background material for the, uh, literature item on the, uh, progress report on the plain language?" [03:08:03.656 – 03:08:05.476] I really encourage everyone to look at it. [03:08:05.476 – 03:08:10.156] It demystifies a lot of what they mean by the, the, the translation. [03:08:10.156 – 03:08:12.106] And, um- Sure … [03:08:12.106 – 03:08:15.866] it's, it's not a draft at all, but it's samples of what it looks like. [03:08:15.866 – 03:08:20.746] And it's, there's some very specific examples side by side, so, of what it could look like. [03:08:20.746 – 03:08:20.996] Cool.

[03:08:20.996 – 03:08:21.846] I have access to it. [03:08:21.846 – 03:08:23.206] I just haven't read this year's yet. [03:08:23.206 – 03:08:23.696] Yeah, take a look. [03:08:23.696 – 03:08:24.856] So thanks, thanks for saying that. [03:08:24.856 – 03:08:25.046] Yeah. [03:08:25.046 – 03:08:25.336] Okay. [03:08:25.336 – 03:08:26.216] Mm-hmm.

[03:08:26.216 – 03:08:26.856] Thank you, Ben. [03:08:26.856 – 03:08:28.336] Um, Dan T. [03:08:28.336 – 03:08:30.156] We're going back to Australia, Dan. [03:08:30.156 – 03:08:31.566] Hello, Dan. [03:08:31.566 – 03:08:32.955] Good day to you, David. [03:08:32.955 – 03:08:34.266] Jackie- Good, man … [03:08:34.266 – 03:08:44.336] uh, uh, just, uh, I was just reminded in this country that one of the major, the ma- the major telco in this country ran an ad.

[03:08:44.336 – 03:08:45.696] It's years ago now. [03:08:45.696 – 03:08:55.726] And it's this little kid, and he's asking his father, and he said, "Dad, why did they build the Great W. of China?" You can see the father, the father hasn't [03:08:55.726 – 03:08:59.716] got any idea why they built the Great W. of China, but he's scratching his head. [03:08:59.716 – 03:09:03.976] And he looks at the kid, and he said, uh, yeah, he said, uh- [03:09:04.724 – 03:09:07.044] He said that, yeah, that was to keep the rabbits out. [03:09:07.044 – 03:09:08.484] Too many rabbits in China. [03:09:08.484 – 03:09:16.484] And now to this day, I couldn't tell you why they built the Great W. of China, but I remember that myth.

[03:09:16.484 – 03:09:19.284] And it's a funny old thing. [03:09:19.284 – 03:09:21.264] I think it's the same in this fellowship. [03:09:21.264 – 03:09:29.124] You know, I s- I said, because I'm a parrot, and, and I'll never live long enough to be a, an elder statesman. [03:09:29.124 – 03:09:39.184] But, uh, you know, I l- I listen to things that get a, a warm reception in meetings, you know, and a couple of little love-hearty emoticons and, uh, and smiley [03:09:39.184 – 03:09:43.044] faces and whatever, and I think that's a good thing, and I'll parrot that off at the next. [03:09:43.044 – 03:09:43.054] Yes. [03:09:43.054 – 03:09:53.104] And it's only since, you know, coming along to, uh, to, um, uh, yesterday morning's meeting and listening to, uh, uh, a meeting David, uh, moderates, chairs

[03:09:53.104 – 03:09:58.684] the writing of the Big Book, but I find that, uh, there's a lot of, lot of good yarns. [03:09:58.684 – 03:10:00.404] Bill was a great yarn spinner. [03:10:00.404 – 03:10:00.874] Yes. [03:10:00.874 – 03:10:04.604] But, uh, some of them just, some of them just a little bit removed from the truth. [03:10:04.604 – 03:10:13.144] And you shared this morning on, uh, the difference between an open meeting and a closed meeting, and I just discovered a funny old thing. [03:10:13.144 – 03:10:23.264] I was just having a look at, uh, at, uh, the, the, the preamble for, uh, uh, uh, uh, one of the meetings my [03:10:23.264 – 03:10:31.504] home group holds, and it, it, uh, it loudly and proudly, uh, opens that, "This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous." Yeah.

[03:10:31.504 – 03:10:32.744] "If this is your first meeting," yeah, «… [03:10:32.744 – 03:10:42.844] introduce yourself now.» And then it rolls on to, uh, to add further down that, uh, please keep your sharings to approximately five minutes, [03:10:42.844 – 03:10:49.184] and, uh, if you could please confine your sharing to matters as they relate to alcoholism, which I think… [03:10:49.184 – 03:10:55.904] And I, and I was thinking to myself, you know, that's, that's not, that, that doesn't tell you up for an open meeting. [03:10:55.904 – 03:11:00.924] But, uh, on the other hand, there's that other little thing that I've heard around the ridges too. [03:11:00.924 – 03:11:02.644] It's, how important is it? [03:11:02.644 – 03:11:04.434] You know?

[03:11:04.434 – 03:11:06.464] The group's, the group's meeting to do well. [03:11:06.464 – 03:11:07.344] That's right. [03:11:07.344 – 03:11:12.324] And they, they're trying to keep people that close, close to the mark, and I think that's all that matters. [03:11:12.324 – 03:11:13.904] Thanks, thanks once again, Jackie. [03:11:13.904 – 03:11:15.023] Thanks once again, David. [03:11:15.023 – 03:11:15.053] Right. [03:11:15.053 – 03:11:16.854] And everyone has been a cracker of a, of a get together.

[03:11:16.854 – 03:11:16.924] Brilliant. [03:11:16.924 – 03:11:17.804] We're gonna finish… [03:11:17.804 – 03:11:19.294] Stay with us for one more, five more. [03:11:19.294 – 03:11:23.063] We're gonna go to Elise, and then we're gonna say good night to everyone all over the place. [03:11:23.063 – 03:11:24.084] Elise. [03:11:24.084 – 03:11:24.964] Yes. [03:11:24.964 – 03:11:25.504] Thank you.

[03:11:25.504 – 03:11:29.144] Um, I'll just quickly respond to the open meetings. [03:11:29.144 – 03:11:38.204] Uh, if you look in our AA group pamphlet, which you may have something different in Australia, but ours says that visitors are welcome as observers. [03:11:38.204 – 03:11:38.214] Yeah. [03:11:38.214 – 03:11:41.164] So we are still asking people to stick to alcoholism. [03:11:41.164 – 03:11:42.164] Yeah. [03:11:42.164 – 03:11:52.344] Um, on the plain language book, our district is taking a motion to our area for the whole conference to have the opportunity to review and approve the plain language [03:11:52.344 – 03:11:52.904] book.

[03:11:52.904 – 03:12:02.664] The new chair of the board said it would take a, an agenda item in order for that to come about, so we plan to give them one. [03:12:02.664 – 03:12:04.424] Um- Cool. [03:12:04.424 – 03:12:04.454] Good … [03:12:04.454 – 03:12:05.524] and then I want to… [03:12:05.524 – 03:12:06.624] Huh? [03:12:06.624 – 03:12:07.533] No. [03:12:07.533 – 03:12:08.004] Good.

[03:12:08.004 – 03:12:08.634] What, Jackie? [03:12:08.634 – 03:12:09.214] That's exactly… [03:12:09.214 – 03:12:10.843] No, I said that's great. [03:12:10.843 – 03:12:18.124] Like, it's great that, to, you know, instead of, you know, like, that your group is taking action and, and putting forward an agenda item. [03:12:18.124 – 03:12:19.984] I think that's ex- perfect. [03:12:19.984 – 03:12:22.494] Um- It's very important … [03:12:22.494 – 03:12:32.624] and as for the women's groups, Nick, um, I really, I do appreciate your enlightened view, and I hope we can all get there, but I want to tell you about Spanish

[03:12:32.624 – 03:12:34.304] groups and then my own experience. [03:12:34.304 – 03:12:34.384] Oh, yeah. [03:12:34.384 – 03:12:44.384] In S. groups, women are often 10 to 15% of the members, and they're often being beaten at home, and they cannot talk about that [03:12:44.384 – 03:12:51.524] in a mixed meeting, uh, with possibly their husbands there or their husbands' friends or even without that, just 85% men. [03:12:51.524 – 03:12:53.804] They can't talk about what's making them drink. [03:12:53.804 – 03:12:56.864] Um, so they really need women's meetings. [03:12:56.864 – 03:13:06.864] And one of the problems with the preamble as it was was that some of the Spanish groups were saying, it said, "As men and women," so you can't have women's meetings by yourself, in part because

[03:13:06.864 – 03:13:09.344] they didn't want them to go talk about those things. [03:13:09.344 – 03:13:19.364] My personal experience is that after I was brutally raped by a member of my home group, uh, even though I'd had friend- you know, male friends [03:13:19.364 – 03:13:29.364] in the fellowship for 38 years at that point, I didn't trust anybody with a Y chromosome and didn't go to a mixed meeting for many [03:13:29.364 – 03:13:30.884] months thereafter. [03:13:30.884 – 03:13:34.024] I, you know, in general, I prefer mixed meetings. [03:13:34.024 – 03:13:38.704] Yes, I'm back in them today, but I needed that respite after that rape. [03:13:38.704 – 03:13:46.224] I, you know, uh, you can just only be so damaged and still walk in.

[03:13:46.224 – 03:13:47.204] Yeah. [03:13:47.204 – 03:13:48.964] Thank you. [03:13:48.964 – 03:13:49.234] Mm. [03:13:49.234 – 03:13:49.354] Thank you. [03:13:49.354 – 03:13:50.824] So I'm sorry to leave it on a downer. [03:13:50.824 – 03:13:51.284] No, no. [03:13:51.284 – 03:13:52.263] Thank, thanks for sharing.

[03:13:52.263 – 03:13:52.974] We appreciate that. [03:13:52.974 – 03:13:54.124] I'm sure I speak for yourself. [03:13:54.124 – 03:13:54.344] Yeah. [03:13:54.344 – 03:13:54.734] The- Thank you … [03:13:54.734 – 03:14:03.884] and what you said about the Spanish groups and what women Spanish groups are going through is, is so true because in Central C., um, there's been such a struggle. [03:14:03.884 – 03:14:07.364] Some S. intergroups won't list those groups at all. [03:14:07.364 – 03:14:08.764] They try to shut them down.

[03:14:08.764 – 03:14:11.583] Like, it's so similar to, like, what happened before. [03:14:11.583 – 03:14:13.504] There's, there's just such a, a… [03:14:13.504 – 03:14:14.004] Yeah. [03:14:14.004 – 03:14:24.084] And then at the same time, women who attend the, the mixed meetings, um, they're often relegated to doing the domestic chores for the group, um, type [03:14:24.084 – 03:14:28.634] of thing, and, um, they don't share from the, the, the, the place- [03:14:28.872 – 03:14:31.322] it, so, um, yeah, uh, the pulpit. [03:14:31.322 – 03:14:34.172] You know, the- they don't get to share Oh, yeah And so, yeah.

[03:14:34.172 – 03:14:44.292] Yeah T., the way that they're fight, you know, really, um, the women's Hispanic workshop, uh, uh, Hispanic women's workshop has been going on for a couple years, and it's really about, um, [03:14:44.292 – 03:14:54.512] it s- it was really created out of that need that Spanish women had to have meetings with other Spanish-speaking women because of the additional barriers and problems that they faced [03:14:54.512 – 03:14:57.292] that were not being served by the mixed meetings. [03:14:57.292 – 03:14:59.532] Thank you for that. [03:14:59.532 – 03:15:00.652] And thanks for sharing. [03:15:00.652 – 03:15:00.901] Yeah. [03:15:00.901 – 03:15:05.592] Nick, we were going to stop, but you put your hand up, and you put me in a, you know, w- we're going to stop the recording unless you…

[03:15:05.592 – 03:15:05.932] Go on. [03:15:05.932 – 03:15:08.732] Let's hear what you have to say, and I- Just one quick question for Jackie. [03:15:08.732 – 03:15:15.972] This new, uh, language book that's taken, is being discussed in America, and it gets passed. [03:15:15.972 – 03:15:23.272] What effects does that have on the membership worldwide, you know, as I live in the UK? [03:15:23.272 – 03:15:30.192] Because I, I spoke to people in the, uh, intergroup, my local intergroup today, and they only hear this through Chinese whispers. [03:15:30.192 – 03:15:37.492] It's nothing formal that's happening within GSO within the UK or being discussed at conference this year. [03:15:37.492 – 03:15:46.372] So do you see the book, if it gets passed, being produced in America and then being fed out through worldwide or, or what?

[03:15:46.372 – 03:15:56.512] I mean, one thing is if it's, if it's passed here, you know, um, you know, does, like for example, does do you have access to Living S.? [03:15:56.512 – 03:16:06.992] You know, so the question is English AA Alcoholics W. Service published material that gets passed in the US and Canada and is in English and then becomes widely available, [03:16:06.992 – 03:16:17.112] like, I mean, I'm sure, like, an individual general service office could decide not to, to, that it's not approved by their service [03:16:17.112 – 03:16:17.652] structure. [03:16:17.652 – 03:16:22.032] And, um, but that it's like intergroups, do intergroups stock it? [03:16:22.032 – 03:16:22.972] You know, that kind of thing. [03:16:22.972 – 03:16:30.032] Because the US licenses certain books to be, you know, sold and, and copyright.

[03:16:30.032 – 03:16:31.142] You know, so I, I… [03:16:31.142 – 03:16:32.572] It's very complicated, but you know what? [03:16:32.572 – 03:16:41.422] This is something, it's interesting you bring this up because I heard this recently, which was the concern that w- the US and Canada are making decisions about a text- Right … [03:16:41.422 – 03:16:43.952] that is used in many different countries. [03:16:43.952 – 03:16:46.352] And so there is that awareness. [03:16:46.352 – 03:16:47.472] Yeah, absolutely. [03:16:47.472 – 03:16:53.912] So I, I hear that, and, um- So what I'm basically saying- Yeah, and, and it'll be available online.

[03:16:53.912 – 03:16:54.512] You know what I mean? [03:16:54.512 – 03:16:55.452] Most likely. [03:16:55.452 – 03:16:55.542] Yeah. [03:16:55.542 – 03:16:56.292] Um, maybe not. [03:16:56.292 – 03:17:04.832] Like L. Sober, I'm not sure if a free PDF of Living S. is available, but now, you know, there are PDFs of the 12 and 12, um, and the big book. [03:17:04.832 – 03:17:10.902] And likewise, changes to the 12 and 12 that take place, you know, that might, you know, affect other countries. [03:17:10.902 – 03:17:21.092] But I guess other countries' general service structures could decide to publish their own big, you know, cop- lease the copyright from AA World S. and say, "We wanna

[03:17:21.092 – 03:17:24.652] only use this one," and then, you know, try to control more. [03:17:24.652 – 03:17:30.632] But we live in such a global society with the internet and people able to ship things, and so… [03:17:30.632 – 03:17:39.822] And, and do the, does another general service structure have the economic ability to publish on the scale that AA World S. does in New York? [03:17:39.822 – 03:17:45.392] But I, I think it's a good, super good question because you're absolutely right. [03:17:45.392 – 03:17:45.622] Good. [03:17:45.622 – 03:17:46.422] It does affect- Uh- … [03:17:46.422 – 03:17:47.732] more than US, Canada.

[03:17:47.732 – 03:17:57.832] I know, I know the time for this is short, but the discussion I had with the, uh, secretary of the local intergroup was that, and these are his words, not mine, is that US and Canada are making [03:17:57.832 – 03:18:05.112] decisions for all of us because of the use of the internet, and we can order books from America now, whereas 30 years we couldn't. [03:18:05.112 – 03:18:11.052] And that local language that you're hoping to accomplish might not be applicable in the UK. [03:18:11.052 – 03:18:13.032] Those are his words, not mine. [03:18:13.032 – 03:18:14.552] Yeah, absolutely. [03:18:14.552 – 03:18:15.322] I mean, that's- Mm-hmm … [03:18:15.322 – 03:18:23.472] been a problem with, uh, AA in a way is, and even our history and the way I do my history talks, it's very North A. centric, right?

[03:18:23.472 – 03:18:25.552] Um, 100%. [03:18:25.552 – 03:18:28.972] Uh, I think that's a very valid concern and criticism. [03:18:28.972 – 03:18:32.232] But the only, you know, at the same time, it's like members are coming for… [03:18:32.232 – 03:18:35.152] Like this is not something that GSO came up with, right? [03:18:35.152 – 03:18:44.852] It's people putting in agenda topics the way that Elise has put in an agenda topic, and enough times that they received it that it's being brought up to a whole. [03:18:44.852 – 03:18:48.892] But I f- you know, this is something I wonder what they're talking about at the World S. Meeting. [03:18:48.892 – 03:18:54.512] I'm sure, uh, GSO is aware of it, and it would be a good topic- But the trustees …

[03:18:54.512 – 03:18:57.362] of discussion for World S. Meeting to talk about. [03:18:57.362 – 03:18:57.382] The trustees are talking about it. [03:18:57.382 – 03:18:58.272] Yeah, I'm sure they are. [03:18:58.272 – 03:18:58.562] Yeah. [03:18:58.562 – 03:19:08.632] Um, the trustees are aware that they're, you know, they've gotten the message from around the world that they're affecting more people, and they're trying to figure out how to be, you know, how to possibly [03:19:08.632 – 03:19:14.082] incorporate, um, some input from the other English-speaking GSOs. [03:19:14.082 – 03:19:19.732] They haven't figured it out, but they're, they're very much, you know, talking about it and praying about it and trying to figure it out.

[03:19:19.732 – 03:19:20.572] Yeah. [03:19:20.572 – 03:19:21.502] And it's- Okay … [03:19:21.502 – 03:19:22.932] a good discussion for us to have. [03:19:22.932 – 03:19:31.352] If we weren't considering these things, and if there wasn't a response to it, right, we wouldn't be having these questions and wouldn't be thinking about it. [03:19:31.352 – 03:19:35.092] So I'm one of those people that always thinks the discussion is worthwhile. [03:19:35.092 – 03:19:40.052] You know, we don't have to be afraid of the disagreements and the discussions, and yeah. [03:19:40.052 – 03:19:43.092] What a lovely way to finish the recording, but we can still discuss more.

[03:19:43.092 – 03:19:44.772] But that's, I'm gonna stop the recording. [03:19:44.772 – 03:19:45.192] Brilliant. [03:19:45.192 – 03:19:49.452] Yeah, we just- And if you've listened, and if you're listen- listening to this recording after three and a half hours, well done. [03:19:49.452 – 03:19:50.552] We, we appreciate it. [03:19:50.552 – 03:19:51.332] Thank you very much. [03:19:51.332 – 03:19:52.682] So the recording-