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[00:00:00.170 – 00:00:00.560] cloud. [00:00:00.560 – 00:00:03.780] Ah, Happy St. [00:00:03.780 – 00:00:04.450] Patrick's to you. [00:00:04.450 – 00:00:05.280] Hello to that name. [00:00:05.280 – 00:00:06.700] But anyway, we, we start the meeting. [00:00:06.700 – 00:00:13.120] My name is David, I'm, I'm alcoholic, and you're all very welcome to this reading book meeting on Zoom, hosted by the Growing and Understanding AA Group. [00:00:13.120 – 00:00:15.980] And along with Jim W. in Cancun, Mexico.

[00:00:15.980 – 00:00:18.060] Hello, everyone. [00:00:18.060 – 00:00:19.880] Good to be here. [00:00:19.880 – 00:00:20.980] Well, Jim and John K. [00:00:20.980 – 00:00:24.380] is over in the other side, up, up the other side, I suppose, on the West C. of America. [00:00:24.380 – 00:00:24.940] John? [00:00:24.940 – 00:00:27.680] If J.'s want, I'm on mute. [00:00:27.680 – 00:00:29.300] If not, we'll just keep going, John.

[00:00:29.300 – 00:00:29.740] Okay. [00:00:29.740 – 00:00:30.500] John is gonna be… [00:00:30.500 – 00:00:32.060] There, he's waving at us. [00:00:32.060 – 00:00:32.960] Hello, John. [00:00:32.960 – 00:00:34.640] And we're gonna be your co-hosts today. [00:00:34.640 – 00:00:39.280] Uh, the, the audio of these meetings are being recorded, um, and we can, we can be found on… [00:00:39.280 – 00:00:41.000] And I put the link in the chat for you all.

[00:00:41.000 – 00:00:43.540] It's on recoveryspeakers.com. [00:00:43.540 – 00:00:48.560] And if you put in writing the big book, or you can put in growing and understanding, it does come up on those links. [00:00:48.560 – 00:00:51.120] And I've, I have put it in the chat, but I'll do that again later. [00:00:51.120 – 00:00:53.560] So tr- And we're thankful to Mike K. [00:00:53.560 – 00:00:55.680] and all those at Recovery Speakers for doing that for us. [00:00:55.680 – 00:00:56.280] Appreciate it. [00:00:56.280 – 00:01:06.420] Tradition five, the long form, states, "Each AA group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose, and that, of course, is carrying its message to the alcoholics who are still suffering."

[00:01:06.420 – 00:01:08.460] And of course, we do think of the family members as well. [00:01:08.460 – 00:01:18.500] So in keeping within the spirit of the, uh, traditions, the main purpose of these reading book meetings is to improve our understanding of the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, and of course, the message, uh, [00:01:18.500 – 00:01:21.680] recovery message contained in the book titled Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:01:21.680 – 00:01:27.740] It's great to have Bill S. here today, and Bill is gonna be doing the reading along with myself today. [00:01:27.740 – 00:01:29.560] H. Eberst sends his apologies. [00:01:29.560 – 00:01:32.200] He hopefully will do one. [00:01:32.200 – 00:01:34.080] He's offered to do one in the future for us.

[00:01:34.080 – 00:01:39.920] With regards to tradition 7, if you'd like to make a contribution, we ask you to do so at your local AA intergroup. [00:01:39.920 – 00:01:48.470] And regarding the chat, uh, Jim W. has already said that if you wanna ask a question, please do so, and send it to Jim and he'll bring it to the attention of Bill S. at the end. [00:01:48.470 – 00:01:51.260] Or you can raise your hand at the end of the reading. [00:01:51.260 – 00:01:51.860] And we do read… [00:01:51.860 – 00:01:54.430] If you're new here, or if your first time here, we do read the whole chapter. [00:01:54.430 – 00:02:01.380] So today, uh, we're on chapter 14, uh, More A. Alcoholism and We Agnostics. [00:02:01.380 – 00:02:05.619] And we're up in September, 1938.

[00:02:05.619 – 00:02:13.820] Um, so we're now gonna have a few moments silence just to gather our thoughts and of course, get into the, what we call the language of the heart in Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:02:13.820 – 00:02:14.640] I'm sure we all know that. [00:02:14.640 – 00:02:15.200] It's great to have… [00:02:15.200 – 00:02:17.470] I just wanna mention some people who are celebrating milestones. [00:02:17.470 – 00:02:18.980] I've heard a lot of milestones here. [00:02:18.980 – 00:02:20.240] I wrote down Paul B. [00:02:20.240 – 00:02:21.820] His 50 years this week.

[00:02:21.820 – 00:02:23.500] Fantastic, lads. [00:02:23.500 – 00:02:25.240] Thank you for sharing, sharing that with us. [00:02:25.240 – 00:02:29.560] Thank you for leading the way, and anyone else who's celebrating a milestone. [00:02:29.560 – 00:02:37.720] So if you'd like to unmute, we're going to say, um, this version of the set aside prayer, so using God as you do or do not understand it. [00:02:37.720 – 00:02:38.640] God. [00:02:38.640 – 00:02:40.000] God. [00:02:40.000 – 00:02:43.740] Please help me to set aside- Please help me to set aside everything- …

[00:02:43.740 – 00:02:45.150] everything I think I know- … [00:02:45.150 – 00:02:45.900] everything I think I know … [00:02:45.900 – 00:02:48.260] with an open mind to a brand new experience. [00:02:48.260 – 00:02:48.450] … [00:02:48.450 – 00:02:48.950] with an open mind to a brand new experience. [00:02:48.950 – 00:02:49.250] Amen. [00:02:49.250 – 00:02:49.480] Amen.

[00:02:49.480 – 00:02:59.160] As I said, we'll have a few moments silence to gather our thoughts, think of why we're here, and of course, we're thinking of those still suffering from alcoholism and our family members. [00:02:59.160 – 00:03:08.540] Ah. [00:03:08.540 – 00:03:12.200] Thank you for that, Bill. [00:03:12.200 – 00:03:12.980] Thank you, everyone. [00:03:12.980 – 00:03:15.300] So I'm gonna start. [00:03:15.300 – 00:03:22.920] I'm gonna put up the Kindle edition and I fol- If you wanna follow along, I'm sure most of you have your, your books here, but I'm gonna just read along with the Kindle. [00:03:22.920 – 00:03:25.940] And we're on, um, chapter 14 as we said.

[00:03:25.940 – 00:03:27.300] So here we go. [00:03:27.300 – 00:03:28.520] I'll put it up on the screen for us. [00:03:28.520 – 00:03:30.580] And here we go. [00:03:30.580 – 00:03:31.700] Looking forward to reading this. [00:03:31.700 – 00:03:32.280] It's a good read. [00:03:32.280 – 00:03:39.860] So chapter 14, More A. Alcoholism and We Agnostics, and we're in September, as I said, 1938. [00:03:39.860 – 00:03:50.000] "Despite the challenges of dealing with the ongoing excitement created by the trustees meeting composing the long

[00:03:50.000 – 00:03:59.600] sheep and goats letter, and Albert S.'s disappointing call for regular dues at A meetings, Bill W. was able to finally begin to write new material for the Big Book. [00:03:59.600 – 00:04:08.140] Although the proposed This Week article was never published, Hank's ambitious plans for it depended on two interconnected events. [00:04:08.140 – 00:04:17.500] Silas B. would write the article, and just as critically, Bill W. would start writing for the book again, a task…" Uh-oh. [00:04:17.500 – 00:04:19.019] Someone knocked off my screen there. [00:04:19.019 – 00:04:20.360] Okay, we'll go back again. [00:04:20.360 – 00:04:28.640] "Bill W. would start writing for the book again, a task he had successfully avoided for the past three months by repeatedly claiming he was not an author. [00:04:28.640 – 00:04:31.220] Hank keeps the book moving forward.

[00:04:31.220 – 00:04:41.220] But P. was adamant there needed additional chapters to justify the $1 price for what he would be sending out to people asking for help, and Bill was the only [00:04:41.220 – 00:04:42.960] person qualified to do the writing. [00:04:42.960 – 00:04:53.390] Once H. had convinced Silas to take on the article, something that happened during the first or second week of September, he immediately began to pressure Bill to write more chapters [00:04:53.390 – 00:04:57.320] so they would have sufficient material ready when the piece was published. [00:04:57.320 – 00:05:04.200] Hank thought if they had five chapters to send out, people would feel they were getting fair value for their investment of $1. [00:05:04.200 – 00:05:10.180] Once again, Hank was playing a critical and central role in moving the book project forward. [00:05:10.180 – 00:05:20.220] Without his insistence that Bill started, start writing again in September of 1938, the fellowship may never have had a book at all, or

[00:05:20.220 – 00:05:28.290] if one was eventually written, it would've been published long after April 1939 and released with a text and perhaps even a program- [00:05:28.812 – 00:05:31.232] significantly different from what exists today. [00:05:31.232 – 00:05:39.472] Bill candidly acknowledged on several occasions that Hank was his, quote, "partner in the book enterprise," close quote. [00:05:39.472 – 00:05:49.552] And when Ruth H. was asked about P.'s input, she readily admitted he, quote, "contributed a lot of ideas," close quote, and suggestions while [00:05:49.552 – 00:05:50.692] the book was being written. [00:05:50.692 – 00:05:56.872] And for the salesman, Hank's greatest accomplishment was his constant promotion of the Big Book. [00:05:56.872 – 00:06:06.912] While P. didn't actually write the book, other than the chapter titled To E., and his own story, The Unbeliever, his voice was always the

[00:06:06.912 – 00:06:09.352] loudest one raised in support of the project. [00:06:09.352 – 00:06:18.952] At first convincing Bill to write chapter two, There Is a Solution, and his own story as promotional pieces, despite all of the objections being raised in Akron. [00:06:18.952 – 00:06:24.552] And then creating his prophetic outline of what the book would contain when it was finished. [00:06:24.552 – 00:06:34.672] Three months later, in the face of their ongoing failure to raise any money from the rich, Hank suggested that their next best fundraising strategy would be to finish several more [00:06:34.672 – 00:06:39.752] chapters of the book so they would have something substantial to sell to This Week's readers. [00:06:39.752 – 00:06:49.792] When that project eventually fell through, Hank raised his sights once more and decided that if they could just get the book written and published, it would surely generate an [00:06:49.792 – 00:06:57.292] ongoing income stream for, for our growing movement and thereby put Alcoholics Anonymous on a solid financial footing.

[00:06:57.292 – 00:07:07.152] Throughout the entire process, Hank P. was deeply involved with anything and everything relating to the boo- book project. [00:07:07.152 – 00:07:16.612] But his most important contribution was surely this ongoing, increasing, and at times strident insistence that a book had to be written and published. [00:07:16.612 – 00:07:26.632] If H.'s focus seems to be more on the book's potential profits than on how many drunks might be saved, that is no reason for any of today's [00:07:26.632 – 00:07:26.962] A.A. [00:07:26.962 – 00:07:31.632] members to feel anything other than the most profound gratitude for Henry G. [00:07:31.632 – 00:07:32.752] P.. [00:07:32.752 – 00:07:42.112] He was the singular, monumentally persuasive force driving first the writing and then the publication of the Big Book.

[00:07:42.112 – 00:07:42.852] Ooh. [00:07:42.852 – 00:07:52.992] So while Hank's scheme for raising money with an article in This Week ultimately failed, his aborted plan was the direct cause of another decisive turning point [00:07:52.992 – 00:07:55.392] in the history of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:07:55.392 – 00:08:03.632] Bill W. finally assumed full responsibility for writing the rest of the book and began to do just that. [00:08:03.632 – 00:08:07.232] Bill writes the next two chapters. [00:08:07.232 – 00:08:17.372] Bill claims he, quote, "Probably got down to serious writing about September 15th, 1938," and this is one of those instances where his memory [00:08:17.372 – 00:08:19.872] for dates seems to be reasonably accurate.

[00:08:19.872 – 00:08:23.492] It certainly fits with all the other known facts in the story. [00:08:23.492 – 00:08:33.832] Bill took the next two chapters proposed in Hank's outline after discounting the 28 personal stories and what later became The Doctor's Opinion, and began by writing one chapter, [00:08:33.832 – 00:08:43.852] quote, "devoted to the vagaries of the alcoholic mind, bearing especially on mental and emotional states," close quote, and another directed toward most of [00:08:43.852 – 00:08:46.062] us who were honest in being agnostic. [00:08:46.062 – 00:08:56.272] When finished and fully poli- polished, these two chapters would appear in the Big Book under the titles More A. Alcoholism and We Agnostics. [00:08:56.272 – 00:09:02.711] At the time, it wasn't just Hank's outline driving the order of the content for these two chapters. [00:09:02.711 – 00:09:12.952] Bill was actually returning to the two central points he had made in There Is a Solution and devoting an entire chapter to each of them in an effort to drive home

[00:09:12.952 – 00:09:23.072] his foundational beliefs that, A, the central problem for the alcoholic is that he has absolutely no effective mental defense against the first drink, and B, [00:09:23.072 – 00:09:27.292] the only proven solution to this problem was a total reliance on God. [00:09:27.292 – 00:09:37.432] If the compulsion- compulsive drinker wanted to have a real chance at continued sobriety, then he must first admit he was personally powerless over the problem [00:09:37.432 – 00:09:42.752] and then surrender himself to God as the only source of hope for his recovery. [00:09:42.752 – 00:09:51.532] Once the 12 steps were written in early December, these two chapters would be seen as a full exposition of the first two steps. [00:09:51.532 – 00:10:01.572] Bill made this clear in chapter five, titled How It W., where he first articulates all of the steps and then declares the first two have already been fully [00:10:01.572 – 00:10:02.432] covered in the book.

[00:10:02.432 – 00:10:07.592] So the reader is now at step three, which he then goes on to talk about in detail. [00:10:07.592 – 00:10:17.772] Unfortunately, aside from the few earliest chapters, There Is a Solution and Bill's Story, we have no other rough drafts of the chapters found in the front half [00:10:17.772 – 00:10:18.572] of the Big Book. [00:10:18.572 – 00:10:28.032] Early versions of those chapters were either discarded with each rewriting or they were lost when the office moved from New York to New York City. [00:10:28.032 – 00:10:38.052] Ruth H. noted in April 12th, 1940 letter to Hank that when they moved to New York, she said, quote, "We took all the furniture there [00:10:38.052 – 00:10:42.772] was at 17 Williams and left only some cartons of paper, et cetera," close quote. [00:10:42.772 – 00:10:46.712] Might those cartons of paper have contained the discarded rough drafts?

[00:10:46.712 – 00:10:56.642] The earliest versions we have of the other nine expositional chapters are found in the Multilith edition, the pre-publication version of Alcoholics Anonymous that- [00:10:56.784 – 00:11:03.024] That was offset printed in mid-February of 1939 and privately circulated for criticism. [00:11:03.024 – 00:11:12.624] That text had already been reviewed by some members of the fellowship, and it had been subjected to considerable editing by Bill W. and two professional editors. [00:11:12.624 – 00:11:16.164] And now we're going over to Oregon to Reilly K. to do the first footnote. [00:11:16.164 – 00:11:26.304] Details about the Multilith copy and the two editors, Janet B. and Tom O., are given in chapters 27 and [00:11:26.304 – 00:11:26.784] 28. [00:11:26.784 – 00:11:28.584] Thank you, Reilly.

[00:11:28.584 – 00:11:38.984] It is important to note that the earliest drafts of the first two chapters predate the writing of the 12 Steps, while the other nine chapters can only be found in a form that incorporates [00:11:38.984 – 00:11:45.584] whatever edits may have been made to them after the Steps were created in early December 1938. [00:11:45.584 – 00:11:56.044] This is a major disappointment since it is clear from Bill's letters that these two newest chapters were originally circulated in a very rough form, and it would be illuminating [00:11:56.044 – 00:11:59.844] to see how they read or read in that early stage of their development. [00:11:59.844 – 00:12:07.154] On S. 27th, less than two weeks after he started to write again, W. sent them off to Dr. [00:12:07.154 – 00:12:14.104] Bob S., commenting, "Two more chapters of the book, More A. Alcoholism and We Agnostics are close to completion. [00:12:14.104 – 00:12:19.764] I'm enclosing the original dictation on two of them so you can get a rough idea.

[00:12:19.764 – 00:12:24.584] You will understand that what I am sending you is just a rough, uncorrected outline. [00:12:24.584 – 00:12:34.684] We'll let you have the published product when ready." Of course, significant revisions were made to both of these two original dictations, first in the revised version [00:12:34.684 – 00:12:35.304] sent to Dr. [00:12:35.304 – 00:12:42.864] Bob S. on November 3, and then on an ongoing basis as he got closer to the Multilith printing of the book. [00:12:42.864 – 00:12:53.224] Just as the 5,810-word first draft of There Is a Solution was cut by more than 2,000 words before being printed in the Multilith edition, [00:12:53.224 – 00:13:03.244] it is possible that both of these chapters started out as much longer compositions and were then rewritten, edited and cut down in size before they arrived at the text we [00:13:03.244 – 00:13:05.604] find in that first available version.

[00:13:05.604 – 00:13:15.744] On the other hand, it is likely that the discovery of a first draft of either of these new chapters would not reveal anything substantively different from what we find [00:13:15.744 – 00:13:17.304] in them today. [00:13:17.304 – 00:13:27.664] Just as the central ideas of There Is a Solution remained intact and were in fact clarified by the ongoing editing process, these two chapters would almost surely [00:13:27.664 – 00:13:30.664] follow the basic outline of what is found in them today. [00:13:30.664 – 00:13:40.664] The only significant difference being the substitution of the word spiritual for religious throughout, a change already made, for instance, [00:13:40.664 – 00:13:41.664] while editing Dr. [00:13:41.664 – 00:13:49.064] Young's important observation in There Is a Solution and in several other places in the two earliest chapters.

[00:13:49.064 – 00:13:50.264] Footnote. [00:13:50.264 – 00:14:00.384] While the Multilith copy version of More A. Alcoholism uses the word spiritual six times, religious only appears once, and in [00:14:00.384 – 00:14:10.944] that case appears in the doctor's comment in the next to last paragraph of the chapter where he claims that, though not a religious person, I have profound [00:14:10.944 – 00:14:13.344] respect for the spiritual approach. [00:14:13.344 – 00:14:17.044] The real alcoholic is powerless. [00:14:17.044 – 00:14:27.184] As already noted, Bill W. was intent on making a clear-cut case in these chapters for the two beliefs he considered essential to their program [00:14:27.184 – 00:14:27.884] of recovery.

[00:14:27.884 – 00:14:37.924] The first of these was the inability of the true alcoholic, no matter how great his resolve or his degree of self-knowledge to avoid picking up [00:14:37.924 – 00:14:38.744] the first drink. [00:14:38.744 – 00:14:48.744] In T. Is a Solution, Bill had written, at a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is [00:14:48.744 – 00:14:50.524] of absolutely no avail. [00:14:50.524 – 00:14:59.344] The fact is that all of us, for reasons which are yet obscure, have entirely lost the power of choice with respect to alcoholic drinks. [00:14:59.344 – 00:15:05.364] Our so-called willpower with respect to that area of thinking and action becomes virtually non-existent. [00:15:05.364 – 00:15:15.704] We are unable at certain times, no matter how well we understand ourselves, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation

[00:15:15.704 – 00:15:17.644] of even a week or a month ago. [00:15:17.644 – 00:15:27.864] But rather than presenting yet another more detailed explanation of this absolute lack of power, Bill took the more dramatic storytelling approach in [00:15:27.864 – 00:15:37.884] More A. Alcoholism, presenting three life stories and one striking analogy in the hopes that one of these four might grab the alcoholic reader's attention in a [00:15:37.884 – 00:15:40.244] way that a simple statement of fact never could. [00:15:40.244 – 00:15:50.364] Before introducing those stories, Bill wanted to emphatically state that being powerless over the first drink was not just a temporary condition [00:15:50.364 – 00:15:52.124] or a passing disability. [00:15:52.124 – 00:15:56.744] It was a permanent condition if you were a real alcoholic.

[00:15:56.744 – 00:16:02.444] Bill W. says, most of us have been unwilling to admit that we were real alcoholics. [00:16:02.444 – 00:16:06.944] No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. [00:16:06.944 – 00:16:15.284] Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove that we could drink like other people. [00:16:15.284 – 00:16:24.804] The idea that somehow, someday, he will control and enjoy his liquor drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. [00:16:25.316 – 00:16:27.876] "The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. [00:16:27.876 – 00:16:32.216] Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death. [00:16:32.216 – 00:16:37.776] We learned that we had to fully concede to our inner, more selves that we were alcoholics.

[00:16:37.776 – 00:16:39.896] This is the first step in recovery. [00:16:39.896 – 00:16:44.756] The delusion that we are like other people, or presently maybe, had to be smashed. [00:16:44.756 – 00:16:49.796] We alcoholics are men and women who had lost the ability to control our drinking. [00:16:49.796 – 00:16:53.996] We know that no real alcoholic ever recovered this control. [00:16:53.996 – 00:17:04.396] All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals, usually brief, were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful [00:17:04.396 – 00:17:07.276] and incomprehensible demoralization. [00:17:07.276 – 00:17:13.116] We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness.

[00:17:13.116 – 00:17:17.236] Over any considerable period, we get worse, never better. [00:17:17.236 – 00:17:19.916] We are like men who have lost their legs. [00:17:19.916 – 00:17:21.556] They never grow new ones. [00:17:21.556 – 00:17:30.276] Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men." Back to Bill S.. [00:17:30.276 – 00:17:40.856] Bill followed this S. opening with a long list of the ways members of the fellowship had tried to, quote, "To prove themselves exceptions to the rule," close quote, employing, [00:17:40.856 – 00:17:48.316] quote, "Every form of self-deception and experimentation," close quote, in an effort to claim that they did have some power over the first drink. [00:17:48.316 – 00:17:56.176] But sooner or later, all of these strategies ended in abject failure, and the alcoholic inevitably returned to drinking.

[00:17:56.176 – 00:18:06.656] As testimony to the absolute permanence of this condition, Bill's opening story presents the case of a man of 30 who realized he had a problem with alcohol, [00:18:06.656 – 00:18:09.096] decided to quit drinking until he had made his fortune. [00:18:09.096 – 00:18:17.696] He did so, and finally retired after a successful and happy business career characterized by 25 years of bone-dry sobriety. [00:18:17.696 – 00:18:27.836] The man then, quote, "Fell victim to a belief which practically every alcoholic has, that his long period of sobriety and self-discipline [00:18:27.836 – 00:18:31.076] had qualified him to drink as other men," close quote. [00:18:31.076 – 00:18:39.656] This presumption proved fatal, for although he was a healthy man at retirement, he went to pieces quickly and was dead within four years. [00:18:39.656 – 00:18:40.556] Footnote.

[00:18:40.556 – 00:18:50.686] Identifying the unnamed alcoholics who appear in the Big Book has become something of a cottage industry among students of AA history, and this case is [00:18:50.686 – 00:18:51.656] no exception. [00:18:51.656 – 00:19:01.915] While no specific candidate has ever been offered who neatly fits the specifics of this story, it has been suggested with some regularity [00:19:01.915 – 00:19:12.736] that Bill W. borrowed the story from a book called The Common Sense of Drinking by Richard P. of Little, B., and Company, Boston, 1931. [00:19:12.736 – 00:19:22.196] There is, in fact, a somewhat similar story on pages 123 to 24 of that book, but it seems to be about a different individual altogether. [00:19:22.196 – 00:19:32.356] There's no mention of the man's age in Common S., and it took that gentleman only five years to make the million rather than the 25 years mentioned [00:19:32.356 – 00:19:39.316] here, and he died five to six years after resuming drinking, versus the four mentioned in Bill's version.

[00:19:39.316 – 00:19:49.336] Rather than considering W.'s story as a creative elaboration on Peabody, it is more likely that these are actual details about someone Bill [00:19:49.336 – 00:19:55.496] knew from personal experience or whom he had heard about from the personnel at T. Hospital. [00:19:55.496 – 00:20:05.876] This story provides a powerful lesson and reaffirms the truth that, quote, "We have seen demonstrated again and again, once an alcoholic, [00:20:05.876 – 00:20:08.676] always an alcoholic," close quote. [00:20:08.676 – 00:20:10.336] And we're back to the footnotes with Reilly. [00:20:10.336 – 00:20:20.496] Once again, W. has been accused of lifting this phrase from Peabody's Common S. of Drinking, and here there's a bit more [00:20:20.496 – 00:20:21.976] plausibility to the charge.

[00:20:21.976 – 00:20:32.196] On page 82 of his book, Peabody exclaims in italics that, "Once a drunkard, always a drunkard or a teetotaler." [00:20:32.196 – 00:20:38.736] The word alcoholic was supposedly just coming into common usage in the mid to late 1930s. [00:20:38.736 – 00:20:48.796] W.'s other famous lift from Peabody appears in the first draft of How it Works, which says, "Half measures will avail you nothing." [00:20:48.796 – 00:20:54.956] Peabody had written in Common S., "Halfway measures are of no avail," page 99. [00:20:54.956 – 00:20:56.596] Thank you, Reilly. [00:20:56.596 – 00:21:06.736] In short, quote, "If you are planning to stop drinking, there must be no reservation of any kind, nor any lurking notion that someday you will be immune to alcohol," close [00:21:06.736 – 00:21:07.076] quote.

[00:21:07.076 – 00:21:17.456] Bill then spends the next several paragraphs wrestling with a distinction between the potential and the real alcoholic in the hope that this will help the reader evaluate [00:21:17.456 – 00:21:19.696] and clarify his own condition. [00:21:19.696 – 00:21:28.396] The potential, potential alcoholic seems to be someone who can stop for a prolonged period of time, but can't stop once he has started drinking. [00:21:28.396 – 00:21:37.736] While the real alcoholic finds it absolutely impossible to avoid the first drink for any appreciable length of time, even after he has stopped. [00:21:37.736 – 00:21:47.806] Such a man has lost the power to choose whether he will drink or not, and it is exactly here that we find, quote, "The baffling feature of alcoholism as [00:21:47.806 – 00:21:53.346] we know it, this utter inability to leave it alone, no matter how great the necessity" [00:21:53.488 – 00:21:54.928] Or to wish, close quote.

[00:21:54.928 – 00:22:00.208] The real alcoholic just can't avoid alcohol for any significant length of time. [00:22:00.208 – 00:22:05.448] He always, always comes back to drinking in fairly short order. [00:22:05.448 – 00:22:07.008] Wow. [00:22:07.008 – 00:22:10.028] The insanity of the first drink. [00:22:10.028 – 00:22:14.068] The man in the story made a conscious decision to resume drinking. [00:22:14.068 – 00:22:19.268] It had been his plan to do so for 25 years, and the result was fatal. [00:22:19.268 – 00:22:26.708] But what about the fella who has every intention of never touching another drop of alcohol in his life and still picks up the first drink?

[00:22:26.708 – 00:22:37.428] According to W., this is the very heart of the compulsive drinker's problem, and he spends the rest of this chapter graphically exploring the mental processes [00:22:37.428 – 00:22:39.048] that precede the first drink. [00:22:39.048 – 00:22:48.288] Quote, "What sort of thinking dominates an alcoholic who repeats time after time the desperate experiment of the first drink? [00:22:48.288 – 00:22:58.628] Friends who have reasoned with him after a spree that was, that has brought him to the point of divorce or bankruptcy are mystified when he walks directly into a saloon. [00:22:58.628 – 00:23:00.008] Why does he? [00:23:00.008 – 00:23:03.348] Of what is he thinking?" Close quote. [00:23:03.348 – 00:23:13.568] And most important, what are, quote, "Some of the mental states that precede a relapse into the dr- into drinking, for obviously this is the crux of the problem."

[00:23:13.568 – 00:23:14.188] Close quote. [00:23:14.188 – 00:23:23.708] For his first illustration, Bill offers the story of Jim, a sober car salesman who one day stops at a roadside place to get a sandwich for lunch. [00:23:23.708 – 00:23:29.188] He had no intention of drinking and had eaten there many times during the months he had been on the wagon. [00:23:29.188 – 00:23:34.208] Shifting into the first person, Bill allows Jim to tell the story in his own words. [00:23:34.208 – 00:23:38.908] Quote, "I sat down at a table and ordered a sandwich and a glass of milk. [00:23:38.908 – 00:23:40.608] Still no thought of drinking. [00:23:40.608 – 00:23:50.648] I ordered another sandwich and decided to have another glass of milk." And this is underlying this section and, uh, quote, "Suddenly the thought crossed my mind that if

[00:23:50.648 – 00:23:54.968] I were to put an ounce of whiskey in my milk, it couldn't hurt me on a full stomach. [00:23:54.968 – 00:23:57.668] I ordered a whiskey and poured it into the milk. [00:23:57.668 – 00:24:06.028] I vaguely sensed I was not being any too smart, but felt reassured as I was taking the whiskey on a full stomach." End of the underline. [00:24:06.028 – 00:24:12.888] The experiment went so well that I ordered another whiskey and poured in, poured it into more milk. [00:24:12.888 – 00:24:16.487] That didn't seem to bother me, so I tried another. [00:24:16.487 – 00:24:19.428] The alcoholic mind. [00:24:19.428 – 00:24:22.348] Thus started one more journey to the asylum for Jim.

[00:24:22.348 – 00:24:32.008] Here was the threat of commitment, the loss of family and position to say nothing about intense mental and physical suffering which drinking h- always caused him. [00:24:32.008 – 00:24:33.708] This is underlined. [00:24:33.708 – 00:24:43.968] He had much knowledge about himself as an alcoholic, yet all reasons for not drinking were easily pushed aside in favor of the foolish idea he could take whiskey [00:24:43.968 – 00:24:46.248] if only he mist- mixed it with milk. [00:24:46.248 – 00:24:48.408] And that's end of the underline there. [00:24:48.408 – 00:24:55.508] Whatever the price- precise medical definition of the word may be, we call this plain insanity. [00:24:55.508 – 00:25:00.748] How can such a lack of proportion of the ability to think straight be called anything else?

[00:25:00.748 – 00:25:10.768] Bill's use of underlining here is meant to drive home, quote, "The peculiar mental twist," close quote, that allows [00:25:10.768 – 00:25:13.368] someone to make such a lu- ludicrous decision. [00:25:13.368 – 00:25:17.328] What would you call this other than plain insanity? [00:25:17.328 – 00:25:27.608] Real alcoholics consistently exhibit a, quote, "Curious mental phenomenon," close quote, that readily entertains whatever, quote, "Insanely trivial [00:25:27.608 – 00:25:35.488] excuse for taking the first drink," close quote, might come up, and then permits that insane idea to win out. [00:25:35.488 – 00:25:45.548] Our behavior, Bill says, is nothing less than, quote, "Absurd and incomprehensible with respect to the first drink." In an attempt to [00:25:45.548 – 00:25:55.828] further emphasize the absurdity of this kind of thinking, W. offers the ludicrous analogy of a passionate but frequently injured jaywalker, claiming

[00:25:55.828 – 00:26:03.108] that his behavior is no more preposterous than it was for Jim to pour that first shot of whiskey into his milk. [00:26:03.108 – 00:26:13.367] In the beginning, the jaywalker, quote, "Gets a thrill out of skipping in front of fast-moving vehicles," close quote, and does so with impunity [00:26:13.367 – 00:26:14.108] for years. [00:26:14.108 – 00:26:19.648] But then his luck deserts him and he, quote, "Is slightly injured several times in succession. [00:26:19.648 – 00:26:24.988] You would expect him, if he were normal, to cut it out," close quote, but he doesn't. [00:26:24.988 – 00:26:29.228] Worse and worse injuries occur, and still he can't seem to quit. [00:26:29.228 – 00:26:32.248] Quote, "Finally, he can no longer work.

[00:26:32.248 – 00:26:33.688] His wife gets a divorce. [00:26:33.688 – 00:26:35.248] He's held up to ridicule. [00:26:35.248 – 00:26:39.788] He tries every known means to get the jaywalking idea out of his head. [00:26:39.788 – 00:26:44.008] He shuts himself up in an asylum, hoping to mend his ways. [00:26:44.008 – 00:26:49.448] But the day he comes out, he races in front of a fire engine, which breaks his back," close quote. [00:26:49.448 – 00:26:53.748] Such a man, W. pointedly asks, would be crazy, wouldn't he? [00:26:53.748 – 00:26:59.608] This analogy, he admits, may sound too ridiculous to the reader, but is it really?

[00:26:59.608 – 00:27:08.788] If the alcoholic were to substitute his failed attempts to quit drinking with a jaywalker's problems, quote, "The illustration would fit us exactly. [00:27:08.788 – 00:27:16.588] However intelligent we may have been in other respects, where alcohol has been involved, we have been strangely insane. [00:27:16.588 – 00:27:20.248] It's S. language, but isn't it true?" Close quote. [00:27:21.840 – 00:27:22.620] Thank you, Bill W.. [00:27:22.620 – 00:27:32.800] Although it had not yet been written, the point being made here is that the alcoholic is basically insane in regard to the first drink, and in desperate need of the sanity promised in the second [00:27:32.800 – 00:27:38.760] step: came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. [00:27:38.760 – 00:27:49.060] The insanity that step was designed to relieve is to be found exactly here, in the split second when, while still absolutely sober, the peculiar

[00:27:49.060 – 00:27:56.460] mental twist comes into play and convinces the alcoholic that it is perfectly reasonable for him to take that first drink. [00:27:56.460 – 00:28:06.200] As a graphic example of this strange mental deficiency, Bill now presents his final story, the one about Fred, and we have a footnote here. [00:28:06.200 – 00:28:13.060] Fred is generally presumed to be Harry B., who got sober in June 1938. [00:28:13.060 – 00:28:18.380] See, uh, see there's a… [00:28:18.380 – 00:28:23.480] See, for instance, Dodd the author's pages 13 to 14. [00:28:23.480 – 00:28:23.820] Sorry. [00:28:23.820 – 00:28:31.400] B.'s story, a different slant, appears on pages 252 to 253 of the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[00:28:31.400 – 00:28:33.130] Thank you, Riley. [00:28:33.130 – 00:28:43.520] So F., about Fred, a successful businessman who much to his surprise finds himself hospitalized with a bad case of the jitters as a result of his drinking. [00:28:43.520 – 00:28:50.460] A bit depressed about this embarrassing situation, he resolves to quit drinking completely, never thinking he might not be able to do so. [00:28:50.460 – 00:28:57.040] Fred would just not believe himself an alcoholic, much less accept a spiritual remedy for his problem. [00:28:57.040 – 00:29:02.660] He was completely confident he could resolve his current dilemma all by himself. [00:29:02.660 – 00:29:12.660] Fred left the hospital and was successful with his no drinking plan for some time, and quite, quote, "Frankly did not believe it would be possible for him to drink again," [00:29:12.660 – 00:29:13.160] close quote.

[00:29:13.160 – 00:29:23.280] But he did drink again, and the circumstances forced him to accept AA's hypothesis that there is a subtle insanity which precedes the first drink, [00:29:23.280 – 00:29:30.299] a moment of irrationality that overrides every level of self-confidence, self-knowledge, and willpower. [00:29:30.299 – 00:29:40.540] Here was a man who was, quote, "Absolutely convinced he had to stop drinking, who had no excuse for drinking, who exhibited splendid judgment [00:29:40.540 – 00:29:45.800] and determination in all other concerned, yet was flat on his back nevertheless," close quote. [00:29:45.800 – 00:29:50.760] According to Fred's own account, he was on a business trip to Washington. [00:29:50.760 – 00:29:57.660] It was, quote, "The end of a perfect day," close quote, and there was not, quote, "A cloud on the horizon," close quote. [00:29:57.660 – 00:30:07.720] He was on his way to dinner when, underlined section: As I crossed the threshold of the dining room, the thought came to mind, "It would be nice to have a couple of cocktails with

[00:30:07.720 – 00:30:09.020] dinner." That was all. [00:30:09.020 – 00:30:09.980] Nothing more. [00:30:09.980 – 00:30:11.520] End of the underlined. [00:30:11.520 – 00:30:18.119] Fred ordered a drink, and then later another, and yet another, resulting in a drunken spree lasting several days. [00:30:18.119 – 00:30:19.680] How did this happen? [00:30:19.680 – 00:30:22.220] Again, more underlined sentences. [00:30:22.220 – 00:30:27.260] As soon as I regained my ability to think, I went carefully over that evening in Washington.

[00:30:27.260 – 00:30:33.060] Not only had I been off guard, I had no- made no fight whatever against the first drink. [00:30:33.060 – 00:30:36.440] This time I had not thought of the consequences at all. [00:30:36.440 – 00:30:37.960] End of the underlined. [00:30:37.960 – 00:30:42.840] I had commenced to drink as carelessly as though the cocktails were ginger ale. [00:30:42.840 – 00:30:52.940] How to explain this chain of events other than to say that best intentions, self-awareness, and the firmest resolve were all discarded in a moment [00:30:52.940 – 00:31:02.960] that could only be described as one of those, quote, "strange mental blank spots," close quote, that plague the real alcoholic and takes him directly back to drinking [00:31:02.960 – 00:31:08.180] in spite of all his promises, whether are made to himself or to others.

[00:31:08.180 – 00:31:18.140] Surrendering to the truth of his powerlessness over alcohol, Fred agreed to accept the spiritual answer and a program of action offered by AA. [00:31:18.140 – 00:31:23.920] And like so many others who faithfully followed that program, he became sober and was able to stay that way. [00:31:23.920 – 00:31:33.920] W. concludes the chapter with a ringing endorsement of AA's conclusions regarding the first drink, which is offered by a staff member of a world-renowned hospital. [00:31:33.920 – 00:31:34.820] Um, Riley. [00:31:34.820 – 00:31:38.779] Although this sounds very much like something Dr. [00:31:38.779 – 00:31:42.719] S. might have said, this quote has been attributed to Dr. [00:31:42.719 – 00:31:49.280] Percy P. of Bellevue H. in New York City by several students of AA history.

[00:31:49.280 – 00:31:50.960] There's a link here to that reference. [00:31:50.960 – 00:31:51.560] Dr. [00:31:51.560 – 00:32:01.880] Poliak, sometimes erroneously called Pollock, was identified in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age on page 88 [00:32:01.880 – 00:32:08.700] as a psychiatrist who had been impressed with AA as he had seen it at work in Bellevue H. in New York. [00:32:08.700 – 00:32:10.340] Thank you, Riley. [00:32:10.340 – 00:32:17.040] Followed by a short paragraph hammering home the two most important points in this chapter, and serving as an introduction to the next. [00:32:17.040 – 00:32:24.040] Quote, "Once more, the alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink.

[00:32:24.040 – 00:32:30.720] Except in a few rare, rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. [00:32:30.720 – 00:32:41.980] His defense must come from a higher power." The time had now come for a much fuller discussion on the delicate subject of belief in God, a [00:32:41.980 – 00:32:43.540] Power greater than ourselves. [00:32:43.540 – 00:32:50.050] The essence of the next chapter, Bill wrote, is neatly captured in the later wording of the se- [00:32:50.160 – 00:32:55.530] Second step, came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. [00:32:55.530 – 00:33:00.240] This is the only way the alcoholic can overcome the insanity of the first drink. [00:33:00.240 – 00:33:10.340] But rather than just bluntly stating the fact that 100 men had come to believe and thereby been able to stop drinking, W. needed to present some persuasive

[00:33:10.340 – 00:33:17.500] arguments to convince an active alcoholic that he could and should join them in their beliefs about the power of God. [00:33:17.500 – 00:33:27.760] Bill had told Bob S. he didn't much care for the first draft of We Agnostics, claiming he thought it was too preachy, and he felt that it was rather disconnected. [00:33:27.760 – 00:33:32.700] Given his almost impossible task, this is completely understandable. [00:33:32.700 – 00:33:40.620] How could he even begin to make an effective argument for the necessary belief in God without sounding like a Sunday school preacher? [00:33:40.620 – 00:33:50.680] No wonder he suggested to Bob that perhaps it, quote, "Might better be done in the form of a dialogue between one of our former agnostics and a tough-minded board [00:33:50.680 – 00:33:52.700] lying in a hospital bed." Close quote. [00:33:52.700 – 00:34:02.600] Presenting arguments for the existence of God as part of a bedside conversation would have sounded much less like a church sermon and might have proved more appealing to non-believers.

[00:34:02.600 – 00:34:07.420] But as far as we know, Bill never went down that more literary road. [00:34:07.420 – 00:34:17.920] Whatever he wrote, W. knew he needed to do everything in his power to avoid the reaction expected from an alcoholic who had just been told that God was [00:34:17.920 – 00:34:21.180] a necessary part in this solution. [00:34:21.180 – 00:34:23.220] Quote, "Oh, so that's what it is. [00:34:23.220 – 00:34:24.460] I'm so disappointed. [00:34:24.460 – 00:34:28.280] I began to think you fellas knew what you were talking about." Close quote. [00:34:28.280 – 00:34:36.240] Above all else, Bill wanted the reader to keep an open mind and to engage in an exploration of what he called the God idea.

[00:34:36.240 – 00:34:45.340] His worst fear was that the agnostic or atheist would reach this point in the book and then just slam it shut, effectively closing off any further discussion. [00:34:45.340 – 00:34:55.380] W. tried to make this inclusive point clear from the very beginning by choosing a collegial title of We Agnostics for this [00:34:55.380 – 00:34:55.880] chapter. [00:34:55.880 – 00:35:05.940] He could have just as easily called it The Agnostic or You Agnostics or even something like The Agnostic's Dilemma, all of which [00:35:05.940 – 00:35:09.000] would have immediately set up a confrontational scenario. [00:35:09.000 – 00:35:19.040] Instead, Bill quickly makes two specific reference to the we of the title by noting that originally about half of the fellowship had [00:35:19.040 – 00:35:29.440] been strangers to any sort of spiritual experience, and more specifically that, quote, "Something like 50 of us thought we were atheists or agnostics," close quote, when first introduced

[00:35:29.440 – 00:35:30.100] to the fellowship. [00:35:30.100 – 00:35:39.420] But even these committed non-believers soon realized the choice they faced was to either, quote, "Be doomed to an alcoholic hell or be saved." Close quote. [00:35:39.420 – 00:35:44.420] These two harsh options, W. admits, are not always easy to face. [00:35:44.420 – 00:35:54.840] But however much agnostic members may have tried to avoid the God issue, quote, "After a while, we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life [00:35:54.840 – 00:35:56.200] or else." Close quote. [00:35:56.200 – 00:36:03.760] The or else being a return to drinking and a life that could only be characterized as an alcoholic hell. [00:36:03.760 – 00:36:14.360] Having hopefully established some rapport with the non-believing reader, Bill now referred back to the drinker's lack of power regarding the first drink,

[00:36:14.360 – 00:36:22.940] summing up the essence of his position and the critical challenge presently facing the atheist or agnostic in eight short sentences. [00:36:22.940 – 00:36:26.660] Lack of power, that was our dilemma. [00:36:26.660 – 00:36:32.700] We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves, obviously. [00:36:32.700 – 00:36:35.740] But where and how were we to find this power? [00:36:35.740 – 00:36:39.160] Well, that's exactly what this book is about. [00:36:39.160 – 00:36:45.900] Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself, which will solve your problem. [00:36:45.900 – 00:36:53.320] That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral, and it means, of course, we are going to talk about God.

[00:36:53.320 – 00:36:56.320] God as we understand Him. [00:36:56.320 – 00:37:06.720] When writing this chapter, Bill was trying to be as open-mind- open-ended as possible in his talk about the essential spiritual experience and the need for [00:37:06.720 – 00:37:16.760] a spiritual basis of life, and he emphasized that liberal approach throughout by using phrases like a Power greater than ourselves and your own conception of God, and [00:37:16.760 – 00:37:18.440] even God as you understand Him. [00:37:18.440 – 00:37:29.080] But many contemporary AA readers completely miss the point W. was trying to make in We Agnostics because they read the chapter from a 21st-century perspective, [00:37:29.080 – 00:37:38.680] one which incorporates the tremendous liberalization the phrase God as we understand Him has gone through during AA's subsequent history and development. [00:37:38.680 – 00:37:48.680] This later and much greater flexibility regarding God as we understand Him allows some alcoholics to understand God as a group of drunks or good

[00:37:48.680 – 00:37:52.760] orderly direction or the gift of desperation or even the great outdoors. [00:37:52.760 – 00:38:02.980] While this widely expanded approach has been a boon to the growing membership of Alcoholics, it goes far beyond anything Bill W. ever intended when he wrote We Agnostics [00:38:02.980 – 00:38:05.980] in September 1938. [00:38:05.980 – 00:38:16.100] Today's more liberal contemporary understandings of God as we understand Him are put forward under the misconception that this level of freedom of choice was exactly [00:38:16.100 – 00:38:18.390] what Bill W. meant when he used those- [00:38:18.612 – 00:38:20.752] those open-ended phrases and we agnostic. [00:38:20.752 – 00:38:21.672] It wasn't.

[00:38:21.672 – 00:38:31.732] Instead, Bill had two fundamental and very restrictive presumptions that informed all of his writing in this chapter, presumptions that 21st century AA [00:38:31.732 – 00:38:38.152] readers so easily fail to notice because of their own current expectations of the text. [00:38:38.152 – 00:38:40.812] Brilliant. [00:38:40.812 – 00:38:43.992] Spiritual means belief in a personal god. [00:38:43.992 – 00:38:53.452] The first of these is W.'s belief in the complementary equations that spiritual equals God and God equals spiritual. [00:38:53.452 – 00:39:03.752] Bill makes it clear in the first six paragraphs of this chapter that there is absolutely no avenue for assessing the spiritual other than through a belief [00:39:03.752 – 00:39:04.292] in God.

[00:39:04.292 – 00:39:14.752] This strict equivalency rejects out of hand every other avenue for having a spiritual experience, along with any alternate path for discovering [00:39:14.752 – 00:39:16.272] a spiritual basis for life. [00:39:16.272 – 00:39:26.332] While such an exclusive position is far from today's, today's more liberal attitudes in the area, it is completely consistent with Bill W.'s upbringing, with the beliefs [00:39:26.332 – 00:39:36.032] and values of the earliest members of the fellowship, and is perfectly aligned with the 1930s American culture, which was far more religious than it is today. [00:39:36.032 – 00:39:46.062] More open conceptions of God and spiritual that were adopted later must therefore be firmly set aside in order to reach a proper understanding of what [00:39:46.062 – 00:39:49.092] W. was actually saying when he first wrote this chapter. [00:39:49.092 – 00:39:57.432] Bill's second fundamental presumption lies buried beneath his claim that readers can believe in any conception of God they might like.

[00:39:57.432 – 00:40:07.482] What is understood in that claim, but never explicitly stated, is that this new belief must be in the providential God you want to believe in, a God to [00:40:07.482 – 00:40:14.892] whom you can pray, with whom you can make conscious contact, and on whom you can absolutely rely for the help needed to avoid a fourth drink. [00:40:14.892 – 00:40:24.912] Bill offers an open-ended invitation for alcoholics to believe in a supreme being or an all-powerful guiding creative intelligence, along with a [00:40:24.912 – 00:40:27.812] number of other impressively capitalized titles. [00:40:27.812 – 00:40:37.912] But never, for instance, does he offer as an object of belief the God of the deists who believe he created the universe and then removed himself from the realm [00:40:37.912 – 00:40:47.972] of human affairs, or any of the other less involved, less accessible conceptions of divinity that have been suggested over the millennia by religious teachers, mystics, [00:40:47.972 – 00:40:49.592] and philosophers.

[00:40:49.592 – 00:40:57.632] If you want to get sober, you must align yourself with a personal God with whom you can have a personal relationship. [00:40:57.632 – 00:40:59.612] There is no other option. [00:40:59.612 – 00:41:01.092] And we go back to Reilly. [00:41:01.092 – 00:41:08.072] This was stated much more explicitly in a Chicago pamphlet written in 1940 or 1941. [00:41:08.072 – 00:41:13.912] The words spiritual experience still appear in their version of the 12th step. [00:41:13.912 – 00:41:22.612] All that is required is a recognition of a supreme being which would help us were he sincerely petitioned. [00:41:22.612 – 00:41:25.252] And there's a link that follows that.

[00:41:25.252 – 00:41:26.512] Thank you, Reilly. [00:41:26.512 – 00:41:28.932] Again, Bill was not being duplicitous here. [00:41:28.932 – 00:41:38.952] This fundamental assumption was not only what had saved his own life, it was foundational common courtesy of belief throughout the fellowship [00:41:38.952 – 00:41:42.672] at that time as well as for religious people across the country. [00:41:42.672 – 00:41:43.912] And we had a footnote there, Reilly? [00:41:43.912 – 00:41:48.972] See, for instance, the mid-1938 version of Bill's story. [00:41:48.972 – 00:41:53.852] Quote, "In a power greater than myself, I had always believed.

[00:41:53.852 – 00:41:56.152] I'd often pondered these things. [00:41:56.152 – 00:41:57.732] I was not an atheist. [00:41:57.732 – 00:42:02.012] I had little doubt that a mighty purpose and rhythm underlay all. [00:42:02.012 – 00:42:07.412] How could there be so much a precise and immutable law and no intelligence? [00:42:07.412 – 00:42:14.232] I simply had to believe in a spirit of the universe which knew neither time nor limitation. [00:42:14.232 – 00:42:16.862] But that was as far as I had gone. [00:42:16.862 – 00:42:21.252] With preachers and the world's religions, I parted right there.

[00:42:21.252 – 00:42:31.532] When they talked of a God personal to me, which was love, superhuman strength and direction, I became irritated and my mind snapped shut against [00:42:31.532 – 00:42:32.192] such theory. [00:42:32.192 – 00:42:42.512] But my s- my friend sat before me and he made the point blank decl- declaration that God had done for him what he could not do for himself. [00:42:42.512 – 00:42:51.692] In effect, he had been raised from the dead, suddenly taken from the scrap heap to a level of life better than the best he had ever known. [00:42:51.692 – 00:42:53.731] That floored me. [00:42:53.731 – 00:42:59.232] It began to look as though religious people were right after all. [00:42:59.232 – 00:43:03.692] Here was something at work in a human heart which had done the impossible.

[00:43:03.692 – 00:43:10.972] My ideas about miracles were drastically revised right then." There's a JSO folder reference here. [00:43:10.972 – 00:43:13.151] Oh, great stuff. [00:43:13.151 – 00:43:13.912] Thank you, Reilly. [00:43:13.912 – 00:43:18.782] W. didn't feel he needed to be explicit about this point when talking about the God idea. [00:43:18.782 – 00:43:28.892] It was simply a given in the context of that time and place, and a- and in addition, completely obvious from the amount of direct help the alcoholic would need from [00:43:28.892 – 00:43:30.372] this supreme being. [00:43:30.372 – 00:43:40.372] If you want to stop drinking, you must find a spiritual basis of life, and that spiritual basis can only be found by believing in a supreme being with whom you

[00:43:40.372 – 00:43:43.052] can establish a personal relationship. [00:43:43.052 – 00:43:45.352] On being willing to believe. [00:43:45.352 – 00:43:46.732] No- [00:43:46.844 – 00:43:56.904] Noting that while most active alcoholics think the God idea is best ignored or rejected out of hand for a variety of reasons, Bill then launched into an eight-paragraph soft sell [00:43:56.904 – 00:44:06.104] of that idea by stating and restating the cornerstone in his argument, namely that very little is required to start your journey on this road to belief. [00:44:06.104 – 00:44:11.284] There is absolutely no requirement to accept anyone else's conception of God. [00:44:11.284 – 00:44:16.964] Your own conception, however inadequate, is sufficient to make the approach.

[00:44:16.964 – 00:44:24.124] The realm of the spirit is broad, roomy, all-inclusive, never exclusive or for- forbiding. [00:44:24.124 – 00:44:26.884] It is open, we believe, to all men. [00:44:26.884 – 00:44:36.324] And all we are asking is that you lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a power greater than the ego, yourself. [00:44:36.324 – 00:44:46.384] He all but begs the reader not to let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to [00:44:46.384 – 00:44:47.004] you. [00:44:47.004 – 00:44:50.924] Instead, you need to ask yourself but one short question. [00:44:50.924 – 00:45:00.964] "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a power greater than the ego, myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe or is willing to believe,

[00:45:00.964 – 00:45:04.424] we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. [00:45:04.424 – 00:45:13.004] It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone, a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built. [00:45:13.004 – 00:45:23.084] The double mention here of being willing to believe is striking and likely evidence that W. had read William J.' book [00:45:23.084 – 00:45:26.324] The Will to Believe, and then embraced its central point. [00:45:26.324 – 00:45:36.324] On the book's first page, James characterized his first chapter as a, quote, "An essay in justification of faith, a defense of our right to [00:45:36.324 – 00:45:45.564] adopt a believing attitude in religious matters, in spite of the fact that our merely logical intellect may not have been coerced," close quote. [00:45:45.564 – 00:45:55.564] The right to simply adopt a belief rather than having to prove it logically was a foundational principle of William J.' philosophy, and it is

[00:45:55.564 – 00:46:01.084] the central argument Bill W. presents to his skeptical readers in We Agnostics. [00:46:01.084 – 00:46:11.444] Once again, stressing the fellowship of unbelievers, Bill notes that despite a lifetime of obstinacy, sensitiviti- sensitiveness [00:46:11.444 – 00:46:21.564] and unreasonable or unreasoning prejudice, many AA members have found that when, quote, "Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became open-minded [00:46:21.564 – 00:46:22.764] on spiritual matters. [00:46:22.764 – 00:46:32.884] In this respect, alcohol was a great persuader," close quote, allowing us to finally admit that there just might be a power greater [00:46:32.884 – 00:46:40.124] than ourselves, one who could make it possible for us to lead an entirely new alcohol-free life. [00:46:40.124 – 00:46:43.804] Belief in God is an idea that works.

[00:46:43.804 – 00:46:50.244] W. now arrives at the most challenging part of the chapter, his arguments for a belief in God. [00:46:50.244 – 00:46:59.104] Here was a task that had stymied many or stymied great minds for millennium, but Bill makes it clear he is not intimidated by that fact. [00:46:59.104 – 00:47:04.084] Quote, "The reader may still ask why he should believe in a power greater than himself. [00:47:04.084 – 00:47:06.224] We think there are good reasons. [00:47:06.224 – 00:47:08.604] Let us look at some of them," close quote. [00:47:08.604 – 00:47:18.644] He then launched into a series of arguments, actually more pragmatic demonstrations than logical arguments, that despite being somewhat disjointed, exhibit [00:47:18.644 – 00:47:24.204] a solid understanding of his audience and how he might best gain their confidence and agreement.

[00:47:24.204 – 00:47:34.734] W. begins by appealing to the scientifically-minded, noting the ease with which people accept current scientific theories such as electricity, [00:47:34.734 – 00:47:39.374] so long as they are, quote, "Firmly grounded in fact," close quote. [00:47:39.374 – 00:47:41.944] But how do we get to that point of ready acceptance? [00:47:41.944 – 00:47:48.284] We get there, he says, by beginning, quote, "With a reasonable assumption as a starting point," close quote. [00:47:48.284 – 00:47:57.744] Explaining that, quote, "Nowadays, everybody believes in scores of assumptions for which there is good evidence, but no perfect visual proof," close quote. [00:47:57.744 – 00:48:07.904] To demonstrate this concept, Bill invites the reader to consider the prosaic steel girder, which according to science is really just a mass [00:48:07.904 – 00:48:11.304] of electrons whirling around each other at incredible speed.

[00:48:11.304 – 00:48:18.844] Things are obviously not always what they seem on the surface, and outward appearances are not inward reality at all. [00:48:18.844 – 00:48:24.084] Clearly, there are many things we believe in, but for which we have no real visual proof. [00:48:24.084 – 00:48:34.564] So just as there are these precise laws of science that, quote, "Hold true throughout the material world," close quote, in spite of what our senses may tell us, [00:48:34.564 – 00:48:36.764] could there not also be a spiritual element? [00:48:36.764 – 00:48:44.264] Quote, "An all-powerful guiding creative intelligence," close quote, underlying and supporting this material world. [00:48:44.264 – 00:48:54.484] Bill contends that actually when you think about it, to believe anything less would be to join forces with those who claim, quote, "That life origin- originated [00:48:54.484 – 00:48:57.624] out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere," close quote.

[00:48:57.624 – 00:49:07.824] He asks, "Isn't it the height of inte- intellectual arrogance to believe that our senses and our human minds are," quote, "The last word, the alpha [00:49:07.824 – 00:49:11.604] and the omega, the beginning and end of it all?" Close quote. [00:49:11.604 – 00:49:15.094] Dramatically shifting gears, Bill now makes his… [00:49:15.236 – 00:49:21.416] A series of practical arguments that prove him to be an apt student of William J.' pragmatism. [00:49:21.416 – 00:49:27.436] The claim that the truth of any proposition is to be found in the result it produces. [00:49:27.436 – 00:49:37.436] While the skeptic spends his time, quote, "Cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices," close quote, he completely ignores the fact that, quote, "People of faith [00:49:37.436 – 00:49:48.236] have a logical idea of what life is all about," close quote, and are living lives that demonstrate, quote, "A degree of stability, happiness, and usefulness

[00:49:48.236 – 00:49:50.956] which we should have sought ourselves," close quote. [00:49:50.956 – 00:49:57.296] The truth is that we agnostics, quote, "Never gave the spiritual side of life a fair hearing," close quote. [00:49:57.296 – 00:50:02.076] Quoting the 1928 presidential candidate Alfred E. [00:50:02.076 – 00:50:12.436] Smith, Bill invites the reader to look at the record and to carefully note that 100 men and women have come to believe in a power greater than themselves, [00:50:12.436 – 00:50:17.056] and thereby had a revolutionary change in their way of living and thinking. [00:50:17.056 – 00:50:21.336] He then turns this impressive record into a direct challenge. [00:50:21.336 – 00:50:31.356] Quote, "When 100 people much like you are able to say that consciousness of the presence of God is today the most important fact of their lives, they present

[00:50:31.356 – 00:50:34.796] a powerful reason why you should have faith," close quote. [00:50:34.796 – 00:50:44.976] Beyond this, the larger record that Wil- W. wants the reader to examine includes historical figures who have succeeded in the face of superstition, [00:50:44.976 – 00:50:47.036] tradition, and all sorts of fixed ideas. [00:50:47.036 – 00:50:51.396] People like Columbus, Galileo, and his favorite example, the Wright brothers. [00:50:51.396 – 00:51:01.396] Why, in just 30 years, he says, the conquest of the air is almost an old story, and today many people consider the prospect of exploring, quote, "The moon by [00:51:01.396 – 00:51:03.896] means of a rocket inevitable." Riley? [00:51:03.896 – 00:51:13.976] It is worth noting that despite the obvious boldness of this statement, W. was historically closer to the 1969 moon landing,

[00:51:13.976 – 00:51:23.056] just 31 years in the future, than he was to the Wright brothers' first flight at Kitty H., which had occurred 35 years earlier in 1903. [00:51:23.056 – 00:51:33.096] It's clear, he says, from all of these examples that the, quote, "Spirit of modern scientific inquiry, research, and invention," close quote, relies [00:51:33.096 – 00:51:43.386] upon, quote, "The ease with which we discard old ideas for new, by the complete readiness with which we throw away the theory or gadget which does not work for something [00:51:43.386 – 00:51:45.276] new which does," close quote. [00:51:45.276 – 00:51:55.516] He's made his point that it is exactly this kind of open-mindedness that has been the key and indispensable ingredient for the progress [00:51:55.516 – 00:51:57.976] made in science over the past few centuries. [00:51:57.976 – 00:52:02.836] For alcoholics, he says, belief in God is exactly like that.

[00:52:02.836 – 00:52:08.156] It is an idea that works, while our, our old ideas did not. [00:52:08.156 – 00:52:18.156] He asks, "Doesn't it make sense that we apply the same ease with which we change our mind in scientific matters to our stubborn doubts about the existence and the power [00:52:18.156 – 00:52:25.416] of God?" Quote, "We agnostics and atheists were sticking to the idea that self-sufficiency would solve our problems. [00:52:25.416 – 00:52:35.696] But when others showed us that God sufficiency worked for them, we began to feel like those who had insisted the Wrights would never fly," [00:52:35.696 – 00:52:36.276] close quote. [00:52:36.276 – 00:52:39.286] Logic, Bill says, is great stuff. [00:52:39.286 – 00:52:39.996] We liked it.

[00:52:39.996 – 00:52:50.016] And therefore, we are at pains to tell you why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why [00:52:50.016 – 00:52:58.576] we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt, saying we just couldn't decide one way or the other about the existence of God. [00:52:58.576 – 00:53:02.016] But soft and mushy thinking was no longer an option for us. [00:53:02.016 – 00:53:12.156] We had become, quote, "Alcoholics crushed by the self-imposed crisis we could not postpone or evade," close quote, and find that now we had [00:53:12.156 – 00:53:19.136] no choice but to, quote, "Fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else he is nothing. [00:53:19.136 – 00:53:22.536] God either is or he isn't," close quote. [00:53:22.536 – 00:53:25.076] A choice must be made.

[00:53:25.076 – 00:53:35.176] At this crucial point, Bill throws down the gauntlet and dramatically demands of the reader, quote, "What is your choice to be?" [00:53:35.176 – 00:53:35.776] close quote. [00:53:35.776 – 00:53:46.126] Having stated categorically that the present faith in God by 100 recovered alcoholics was reasonable, sane, and logical, [00:53:46.126 – 00:53:49.116] W. now does his best to justify that claim. [00:53:49.116 – 00:53:58.076] Quote, "Arrived at this point, we were scarily- squarely confronted with the question of faith," close quote, and we could no longer duck the issue. [00:53:58.076 – 00:54:08.196] For all his earlier bravado about looking at good reasons for belief, Bill abandons his direct prose style here and begins the argument for faith by painting a flowery [00:54:08.196 – 00:54:18.576] image of the bridge of reasoning, b- bridge of reason leading to the desired shore of faith, where friendly hands are stretched out, welcoming those with flagging spirits

[00:54:18.576 – 00:54:22.296] to the promised, the promise of the new land. [00:54:22.296 – 00:54:32.416] Despite this glowing scene, he admits that having come this far, many agnostics find that they just cannot abandon their absolute faith in the God of reason [00:54:32.416 – 00:54:37.816] and take the final step ashore to the new land of faith in God. [00:54:37.816 – 00:54:43.386] W. then takes this dilemma and turns it on its head, asking those- [00:54:43.557 – 00:54:50.828] those who are reluctant to take this final step if they're clinging to the God of reason isn't also a certain kind of faith. [00:54:50.828 – 00:54:53.618] For did we not believe in our own reasoning? [00:54:53.618 – 00:54:57.048] Did we not have confidence in our ability to think?

[00:54:57.048 – 00:54:59.208] What was that but a sort of faith? [00:54:59.208 – 00:55:05.608] He then catal- catalog- catalogs a number of other kinds of faith to be found in everyone's life. [00:55:05.608 – 00:55:15.668] Not only faith in reason, but also faith in people, sentiments, money, and ourselves, along with a sense of worship in relation to nature and our feelings for [00:55:15.668 – 00:55:16.148] loved ones. [00:55:16.148 – 00:55:24.668] It is impossible, he claims, to say we had no capacity for faith or love or worship in one form or another. [00:55:24.668 – 00:55:27.368] We had been living by faith and little else. [00:55:27.368 – 00:55:30.768] Hence, we saw that reason isn't everything.

[00:55:30.768 – 00:55:37.068] Neither is reason, as most of us use it, entirely dependable, though it emanate from our best minds. [00:55:37.068 – 00:55:39.548] What about people who proved that man could never fly? [00:55:39.548 – 00:55:46.788] Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. [00:55:46.788 – 00:55:50.368] They said, "God made these things possible," and we only smiled. [00:55:50.368 – 00:55:51.398] We had been… [00:55:51.398 – 00:55:54.888] We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true. [00:55:54.888 – 00:56:03.048] Actually, we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child is the fundamental idea of God.

[00:56:03.048 – 00:56:09.288] It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other, it is there. [00:56:09.288 – 00:56:19.288] In recapping this long argumentative section, Bill notes that despite all his best efforts to convince the agnostic, "We can only [00:56:19.288 – 00:56:29.468] clear the ground a bit for you." But he says, "If you are open-minded and pay careful attention to our testimony on this issue, it may allow you to sweep [00:56:29.468 – 00:56:35.428] away prejudice, enable you to think honestly, and encourage you to search diligently within yourself. [00:56:35.428 – 00:56:37.988] With this attitude, you cannot fail. [00:56:37.988 – 00:56:45.788] The consciousness that you do believe is sure to come to you." But Bill wasn't done yet. [00:56:45.788 – 00:56:55.838] Not completely trusting in all he had written so far, he presents his final argument for belief, the story of Fitz M., identified here only as someone who will appear later in this,

[00:56:55.838 – 00:56:56.308] in the book. [00:56:56.308 – 00:57:06.388] A man whose "story is so interesting that some of it should be told now." Despite a deeply religious upbringing, Fitz had rejected [00:57:06.388 – 00:57:12.048] God and falling into an alcoholic way of life filled with nothing but trouble and frustration. [00:57:12.048 – 00:57:20.508] Finding himself in a drying out hospital, he was approached by an alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience, but this encounter only enraged him. [00:57:20.508 – 00:57:30.588] Our friend's gorge rose as he bitterly cried out, "If there is a God, he certainly hasn't done anything for me." But later, alone in his room, he asked quest- he asked himself [00:57:30.588 – 00:57:40.208] this question, "Is it possible that all the religious people I have known are wrong?" While pondering the answer, he felt as though he lived in hell. [00:57:40.208 – 00:57:42.908] Then like a thunderbolt, a great thought came.

[00:57:42.908 – 00:57:44.688] It crowded out all else. [00:57:44.688 – 00:57:49.528] Underlined, "Who are you to say there is no God?" All capital letters. [00:57:49.528 – 00:57:53.728] This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his knees in a few seconds. [00:57:53.728 – 00:57:56.868] He was overwhelmed by a conviction of the presence of God. [00:57:56.868 – 00:57:58.808] He had stepped from bridge to shore. [00:57:58.808 – 00:58:02.368] For the first time, he lived in conscious companionship with his creator. [00:58:02.368 – 00:58:10.708] On that night, three years ago, this man's "alcoholic problem was taken away," and it has never returned.

[00:58:10.708 – 00:58:13.068] God has restored his sanity. [00:58:13.068 – 00:58:17.808] Even so, has God restored us all to our right minds? [00:58:17.808 – 00:58:20.248] To this man, the revelation was sudden. [00:58:20.248 – 00:58:25.968] Some of us grow into it more slowly, but he has come to us all who have honestly sought him. [00:58:25.968 – 00:58:30.568] Draw near to him, and he will disclose himself to you. [00:58:30.568 – 00:58:40.688] According to W., this is the only hope you have if you want to successfully avoid a treacherous first drink, and it is my great pleasure to turn [00:58:40.688 – 00:58:42.188] the next reading over to Mr.

[00:58:42.188 – 00:58:42.968] Bill S.. [00:58:42.968 – 00:58:45.748] Thank you, David, for the invite. [00:58:45.748 – 00:58:48.868] Uh, Bill as the sole author. [00:58:48.868 – 00:58:56.058] Many modern readers have been critical of the writing in this chapter, so a few words about its composition may be helpful. [00:58:56.058 – 00:59:06.128] W.'s authorship of the Big Book has been challenged, most famously by himself, but it's clear that from everything he writes during this time, that at this point he [00:59:06.128 – 00:59:07.388] was the writer. [00:59:07.388 – 00:59:18.048] There is no mention whatsoever in contemporary records of the much-touted collaborative editing process, parenthesis, which did to some degree occur later,

[00:59:18.048 – 00:59:19.048] close parenthesis. [00:59:19.048 – 00:59:25.588] In fact, all of the 1938 evidence supports Bill as being the sole author of these chapters. [00:59:25.588 – 00:59:35.788] His writing was, however, being criticized and critiqued by Hank P. and Ruth H., the two people who were constantly present as he dictated the book at their honored dealer's office [00:59:35.788 – 00:59:36.338] in Newark. [00:59:36.338 – 00:59:46.608] In what proved to be a less than fruitful attempt to help with the book, both Ruth and Hank took a semester's worth of short story writing classes at New York University [00:59:46.608 – 00:59:47.488] at that time. [00:59:47.488 – 00:59:48.448] Footnote.

[00:59:48.448 – 00:59:58.488] It's also possible that these short story classes were at the famous school of journalism at Columbia, where Tom O., who later edited the Big [00:59:58.488 – 01:00:00.108] Book, was known to have taught. [01:00:00.108 – 01:00:09.928] AA Lore claims that Ozell taught at NYU, when in fact he was only known to have been on the faculty of Columbia U.. [01:00:09.928 – 01:00:11.778] Ruth's assertion here- [01:00:11.908 – 01:00:22.008] Here could be a similar area And in those classes, they learned just enough that, quote, "They were constantly trying to advise," end quote, [01:00:22.008 – 01:00:24.408] Bill on how he might improve his prose style. [01:00:24.408 – 01:00:34.668] This interference did not sit particularly well with W., who noted bluntly that in this regard he, quote, "Didn't go for Hank's advice very much," close quote.

[01:00:34.668 – 01:00:44.888] Given this acknowledgement of P.'s unsolicited advice, it is probable that it was Hank's suggestion that the chapter We Agnostics might be improved by Bill [01:00:44.888 – 01:00:53.968] if Bill would just recast the whole thing, quote, "In the form of a dialogue between one of our former agnostics and a tough-minded bird lying in a hospital bed," close quote. [01:00:53.968 – 01:01:02.928] This interesting suggestion sounds more like an ambitious and recently schooled Hank P. than anything Bill W. would have come up with on his own. [01:01:02.928 – 01:01:13.028] Hank was certainly interested in the creative side of the writing project, as can plainly be seen in the flamboyant stream-of-consciousness style he adopted when writing his own [01:01:13.028 – 01:01:15.368] story, The Unbeliever, for the Big Book. [01:01:15.368 – 01:01:17.268] Now we have Hank. [01:01:17.268 – 01:01:19.448] "I know that history, Doc.

[01:01:19.448 – 01:01:21.608] How the spiral tightens. [01:01:21.608 – 01:01:32.408] Uh, drink, unconscious, awake, drink, unconscious, poured into the hospital, suffer the agonies of hell, the shakes, thoughts [01:01:32.408 – 01:01:36.308] running wild, brain unleashed, engine without a governor. [01:01:36.308 – 01:01:38.468] But hell, Doc, I don't want to drink. [01:01:38.468 – 01:01:41.468] I've got one of the stubbornest willpowers known in business. [01:01:41.468 – 01:01:42.608] I stick at things. [01:01:42.608 – 01:01:43.588] I get them done.

[01:01:43.588 – 01:01:45.708] I'm stuck on the wagon for months. [01:01:45.708 – 01:01:47.908] And, and not bothered by it. [01:01:47.908 – 01:01:52.208] And then suddenly, incomprehensibly, an empty glass in my hand and another spiral started. [01:01:52.208 – 01:01:54.068] How did the Doc explain that one? [01:01:54.068 – 01:01:55.808] He couldn't." Footnote. [01:01:55.808 – 01:02:05.248] Ruth H. later noted that Hank's story was written in this style because of what he had learned in the short story courses they took at this time. [01:02:05.248 – 01:02:07.568] There's a GSO reference that follows.

[01:02:07.568 – 01:02:15.268] Once again, we have these two powerfully opinionated men disagreeing on what should and shouldn't be put in the book. [01:02:15.268 – 01:02:23.728] But as W. said at the time, in a slightly different context, he occupied, quote, "a position of considerable authority in this work," unquote. [01:02:23.728 – 01:02:30.488] And since he, quote, "didn't go for Hank's advice very much," end quote, he just continued to compose the book in the way that he thought best. [01:02:30.488 – 01:02:32.968] The new chapters go to Dr. [01:02:32.968 – 01:02:33.508] Bob. [01:02:33.508 – 01:02:36.288] In addition to Hank P., there was Dr. [01:02:36.288 – 01:02:42.508] Bob's opinion to be considered, and Bill sent those two chapters off to him on September 27th with the following comments.

[01:02:42.508 – 01:02:49.148] The chapter, More A. Alcoholism, More A. Alcoholism, seems to me with general approval. [01:02:49.148 – 01:02:52.868] See if you can think of some other points which should have been covered in it. [01:02:52.868 – 01:02:56.248] The chapter, We Agnostics, I, I do not like so much. [01:02:56.248 – 01:02:58.468] It's still too preachy and rather disconnected. [01:02:58.468 – 01:03:06.888] It might better be done on an entirely different basis, in the form of a dialogue between one of our former alcoholics and a tough-minded bird lying in a hospital bed. [01:03:06.888 – 01:03:08.048] What, what do you think? [01:03:08.048 – 01:03:18.228] Perhaps it would be well not to show everybody these chapters, except where you think people can contribute some new ideas which can be incorporated in the final write.

[01:03:18.228 – 01:03:28.308] Besides B.'s candid comment of his uncertainty about the writing process, this letter makes it clear that the collaborative team writing later claimed to have taken place throughout the entire [01:03:28.308 – 01:03:31.788] creation process for the Big Book has, was not yet operational. [01:03:31.788 – 01:03:41.828] He does mention that More A. Alcoholism has met with general approval in New York, but as later testimony will show, he meant that everyone simply agreed with it without offering any [01:03:41.828 – 01:03:43.368] serious comment or criticism. [01:03:43.368 – 01:03:48.868] Nor did the Alco- Akron people make any substantive critiques or contributions to these chapters. [01:03:48.868 – 01:03:55.128] As we s- we shall see in much more detail in chapter 16, quote, "The chapters of the book were sent to Dr. [01:03:55.128 – 01:04:03.948] Bob S. for debate and inspection out there, but he never passed them around very much, merely writing me saying he thought that they were all right," end quote.

[01:04:03.948 – 01:04:10.668] Whatever faults and problems may be found in More A. Alcoholism and We Agnostics today, they were the work of William G. [01:04:10.668 – 01:04:11.848] W. and no one else. [01:04:11.848 – 01:04:14.788] It was from start to finish his own creation. [01:04:14.788 – 01:04:16.988] It's great to have you, Bill, read that. [01:04:16.988 – 01:04:17.828] Thank you, everyone. [01:04:17.828 – 01:04:18.568] Brilliant. [01:04:18.568 – 01:04:21.968] If you'd like to unmute and acknowledge those who read.

[01:04:21.968 – 01:04:24.528] And of course, Riley, wonderful job, Riley. [01:04:24.528 – 01:04:26.168] David, Riley, awesome job. [01:04:26.168 – 01:04:27.528] Thank you. [01:04:27.528 – 01:04:31.728] David, we, we should, we got to publish your, your, your reading of that thing. [01:04:31.728 – 01:04:37.348] Nobody, nobody hearing you saying that stuff could possibly miss the point of what, what Alcoholics Anonymous is all about. [01:04:37.348 – 01:04:37.868] Thank you. [01:04:37.868 – 01:04:38.858] Yeah, great reading.

[01:04:38.858 – 01:04:39.908] Thank you, Bill S.. [01:04:39.908 – 01:04:42.027] Great job, David. [01:04:42.027 – 01:04:42.038] Lovely job. [01:04:42.038 – 01:04:43.428] Very well done, David. [01:04:43.428 – 01:04:45.218] That's some powerful language there. [01:04:45.218 – 01:04:45.768] Awesome, David. [01:04:45.768 – 01:04:47.028] Awesome accent.

[01:04:47.028 – 01:04:47.618] That's it. [01:04:47.618 – 01:04:47.888] Yeah. [01:04:47.888 – 01:04:48.758] Powerful summations. [01:04:48.758 – 01:04:50.828] Love the accent. [01:04:50.828 – 01:04:53.048] Great job, everyone. [01:04:53.048 – 01:04:53.478] Fantastic. [01:04:53.478 – 01:04:54.098] Outstanding.

[01:04:54.098 – 01:04:59.858] We're going to go over to Jim W. now, who's in Cancun in Mexico, and we have some questions for him. [01:04:59.858 – 01:05:04.188] We have, of course, Bill S. with us for a short period of time, so please be mindful of that. [01:05:04.188 – 01:05:05.248] Jim? [01:05:05.248 – 01:05:06.048] All right. [01:05:06.048 – 01:05:06.928] Thank you, David. [01:05:06.928 – 01:05:12.968] Thank you, uh, uh, Bill and Riley, uh, for a great reading and a great chapter. [01:05:12.968 – 01:05:14.448] Interesting.

[01:05:14.448 – 01:05:16.248] We're going to go to questions and answers. [01:05:16.248 – 01:05:21.148] Remember, this is not a discussion or, you know, of the big book actually. [01:05:21.148 – 01:05:24.608] We're, we're talking about the history and what we read today. [01:05:24.608 – 01:05:28.968] So let's get answers, and we'll go first to Paul B. [01:05:28.968 – 01:05:30.568] in Marco I., Florida. [01:05:30.568 – 01:05:32.328] Thank you. [01:05:32.328 – 01:05:33.248] Thank you, Jim.

[01:05:33.248 – 01:05:34.748] Thanks, David and Bill. [01:05:34.748 – 01:05:39.328] So where did, where did the God as we understand him come from? [01:05:41.660 – 01:05:51.920] Well, Bill claims in his story, which was written in June, three months before this, that that was something that Ebby told him when he was, when he was visiting him a- and presumably [01:05:51.920 – 01:05:56.140] in the hosp- I don't remember exactly whether he claimed it happened when Ebby first visited him. [01:05:56.140 – 01:05:58.520] I think he told him about it when he was in the hospital. [01:05:58.520 – 01:06:07.520] So that, that phrase goes back to June, and the question of, uh, you know, further evidence going back further than that, I mean, did… [01:06:07.520 – 01:06:17.540] Eb- Ebby later said that, that those, those three guys that approached him up in, uh, up in Vermont when, uh, when he was being tried, uh, those guys were from the Oxford Group, and he, he claims that that's

[01:06:17.540 – 01:06:22.460] what they told him, which I, quite frankly, uh, disbelieve. [01:06:22.460 – 01:06:23.360] I don't think that was… [01:06:23.360 – 01:06:24.670] I, I don't know where it came from. [01:06:24.670 – 01:06:31.820] It's real- it's a real- it's, it's an interesting question, and I think, um, some more work could be done on that in terms of, of, of some research. [01:06:31.820 – 01:06:35.140] But, uh, but, uh, but that, that's, that… [01:06:35.140 – 01:06:40.160] It, it, it was not something that was suggested at the last minute by Jim B.. [01:06:40.160 – 01:06:49.620] Uh, he, he may have insisted that it end up in the steps, but the phrase had already been around since June of 19- or, or late May of 1938.

[01:06:49.620 – 01:06:52.100] And congratulations- Thank you, Bill … [01:06:52.100 – 01:06:52.940] on 50 years, Paul. [01:06:52.940 – 01:06:53.780] Okay. [01:06:53.780 – 01:06:54.200] Thank you. [01:06:54.200 – 01:06:57.160] Thank you, Bill, and thank you, Paul. [01:06:57.160 – 01:06:58.100] Congratulations. [01:06:58.100 – 01:07:06.780] And if you have a question, just, uh, put your, raise your hand up on the, uh, participants page and, uh, and I'll call on you.

[01:07:06.780 – 01:07:10.510] Any questions that you may have about the reading today? [01:07:10.510 – 01:07:15.160] No questions. [01:07:15.160 – 01:07:17.340] Everything perfect- There we go. [01:07:17.340 – 01:07:18.480] There's Bill L.. [01:07:18.480 – 01:07:20.300] Go right ahead, Bill. [01:07:20.300 – 01:07:22.620] Thank you. [01:07:22.620 – 01:07:25.900] Uh, thank you, David, for, for reading on St.

[01:07:25.900 – 01:07:26.920] Patrick's Day. [01:07:26.920 – 01:07:28.980] Brought that Irish out. [01:07:28.980 – 01:07:30.220] Perfect reading. [01:07:30.220 – 01:07:40.380] Um, Bill, the underlining, uh, in the book, uh, you are copying what Bill, Bill W. [01:07:40.380 – 01:07:41.280] underlined. [01:07:41.280 – 01:07:44.500] Was it handwritten or typewritten underlining? [01:07:44.500 – 01:07:46.240] It w- it was, it was typewritten.

[01:07:46.240 – 01:07:55.800] It, this, this really comes from, this text comes from the multi-lith copy, which is a little bit different from what was done, uh, a couple of months later when the book was published in April. [01:07:55.800 – 01:07:56.369] Mm-hmm. [01:07:56.369 – 01:08:00.540] So, uh, this is, this is the mid-February 1939 text. [01:08:00.540 – 01:08:04.560] And, and he didn't have a way, uh, on a, on a typewriter to do italics. [01:08:04.560 – 01:08:04.950] Right. [01:08:04.950 – 01:08:07.940] And that stuff all ended up as italics when the book was printed. [01:08:07.940 – 01:08:12.240] So his emphasis couldn't be italics, so his emphasis was underlining.

[01:08:12.240 – 01:08:15.290] Thank you. [01:08:15.290 – 01:08:15.740] Thank you, Bill. [01:08:15.740 – 01:08:17.800] And Dennis from Naples, Florida. [01:08:17.800 – 01:08:19.660] Dennis. [01:08:19.660 – 01:08:21.240] Dennis, you're muted. [01:08:21.240 – 01:08:24.940] You're still muted, Dennis. [01:08:24.940 – 01:08:27.980] Okay.

[01:08:27.980 – 01:08:31.440] I'm not too smart. [01:08:31.440 – 01:08:41.700] Anyway, I noticed on, uh, your writings you didn't me- mention page 55 with the direction where God is found, [01:08:41.960 – 01:08:43.580] deep down inside all of us. [01:08:43.580 – 01:08:46.500] That's the favorite pa- my favorite page in the Big Book. [01:08:46.500 – 01:08:56.560] And when you choose your, uh, conception of God, we always have them write three words down of what it is, and then that's their own conception of [01:08:56.560 – 01:08:58.020] God and we get them moving on. [01:08:58.020 – 01:08:58.640] Thank you.

[01:08:58.640 – 01:08:59.880] Thank you, Dennis. [01:08:59.880 – 01:09:00.320] Yeah. [01:09:00.320 – 01:09:02.340] Thank you, Dennis. [01:09:02.340 – 01:09:03.340] And Marsha. [01:09:03.340 – 01:09:12.680] Hi, every- You just muted yourself again, Marsha. [01:09:12.680 – 01:09:15.860] Or maybe the cat did it. [01:09:15.860 – 01:09:17.360] Maybe.

[01:09:17.360 – 01:09:19.940] Thank you very much. [01:09:19.940 – 01:09:20.660] How y'all doing? [01:09:20.660 – 01:09:21.420] Hi, Bill. [01:09:21.420 – 01:09:27.900] Um, I wanna thank you for such a thorough exposition on this particular chapter. [01:09:27.900 – 01:09:37.980] Uh, just not so coincidentally, um, I was engaged in quite a, uh, polemic, if you will, [01:09:37.980 – 01:09:46.840] uh, with, uh, a newcomer just, uh, two days ago on this very issue. [01:09:46.840 – 01:09:58.040] Um, I, I found it very gratifying that you made it clear about the intentionality

[01:09:58.040 – 01:10:04.360] of this chapter and of his articulation of God. [01:10:04.360 – 01:10:05.660] Okay. [01:10:05.660 – 01:10:16.540] What I wonder of late is the mid-century, um, [01:10:16.540 – 01:10:26.640] kind of narrowness of their worldviews really limited their [01:10:26.640 – 01:10:37.780] concept of God as I understand it to basically being we're somehow nondenominational. [01:10:37.780 – 01:10:47.780] Sometimes I wonder if their idea of being expanded in, in a view of God was basically not to, [01:10:47.780 – 01:10:58.280] uh, demand that a new person as- ascribe to a particular denomination, as opposed

[01:10:58.280 – 01:11:08.470] to a understanding of God that transcended sort of Christian or J- Judeo-Christian conceptions [01:11:08.581 – 01:11:09.592] realization of God. [01:11:09.592 – 01:11:17.712] Is, is that kind of- Yeah, I, Marsha, I think that's exactly what was going on here, uh, what they were doing. [01:11:17.712 – 01:11:24.731] You know, I mean, last week we were talking afterwards about the fact you have to realize that people in the nine- mid-1930s were readers. [01:11:24.731 – 01:11:26.432] They were a literate society. [01:11:26.432 – 01:11:28.412] They had everybody was reading these things, you know? [01:11:28.412 – 01:11:29.572] And that's not true today.

[01:11:29.572 – 01:11:33.052] And it's the same thing, you gotta understand the context always. [01:11:33.052 – 01:11:37.282] Ernie K. used to just beat me over the head with this context word. [01:11:37.282 – 01:11:47.312] He would always, always, always say, you know, "Context, context, context." It, it was just, it was one of his bugaboos, you know, that people would take things, uh, out of the 1930s or the 1940s and just [01:11:47.312 – 01:11:51.372] plug them into the, into the, into the 2000s, you know? [01:11:51.372 – 01:11:53.552] And, and, and try and look at them from that perspective. [01:11:53.552 – 01:11:55.192] But you need to understand the context. [01:11:55.192 – 01:12:01.132] And I really tried to do that in this chapter because over the years I've been perplexed reading this chapter.

[01:12:01.132 – 01:12:05.132] It just, it just, it just really annoyed me 'cause I couldn't figure out what the hell he was trying to tell me. [01:12:05.132 – 01:12:15.142] But once I, once I dug into it for this project, for this, this research and writing thing, when I really tried to write about it, [01:12:15.142 – 01:12:19.472] I realized that there was two underlying presumptions here that, that were… [01:12:19.472 – 01:12:22.312] They're not explicit because they were a given in those times. [01:12:22.312 – 01:12:29.332] That, that spiritual equaled God and God equaled spiritual, and that you could believe in any god you wanted as long as it was a providential God. [01:12:29.332 – 01:12:38.812] I mean, it's very, very clear from the chapter and the rest of the book that, that you gotta be, you gotta have a personal relationship with a God that you can pray to for help and get help back from. [01:12:38.812 – 01:12:39.142] Mm-hmm.

[01:12:39.142 – 01:12:40.912] Like, that's the deal. [01:12:40.912 – 01:12:42.492] That's what we're talking about here. [01:12:42.492 – 01:12:44.232] That's what Bill W.'s talking about here. [01:12:44.232 – 01:12:52.892] Now, I'm fortunate that when I came in in 1981 there was a little bit more liberal approach to that, because otherwise I wouldn't be here today. [01:12:52.892 – 01:12:54.212] I'd be a dead man. [01:12:54.212 – 01:13:02.912] But, uh, but, but that's not what it says in the book, and what I try and do here is to get down to what it says in the book, and that's what it says in the black parts. [01:13:02.912 – 01:13:03.132] You know?

[01:13:03.132 – 01:13:08.992] You can, you can, you can go between the lines and substitute a whole bunch of stuff, but that's what it says in the black parts of his book. [01:13:08.992 – 01:13:10.592] Thank you. [01:13:10.592 – 01:13:12.432] And where does, but where does this come from? [01:13:12.432 – 01:13:22.572] So often heard, uh, in the program, uh, particularly I guess to newcomers of, "Well, you could make your higher power a rock." [01:13:22.572 – 01:13:25.172] You can make your higher power what? [01:13:25.172 – 01:13:26.332] A rock. [01:13:26.332 – 01:13:29.772] Or, or- Yeah, well- Or all that kind of thing …

[01:13:29.772 – 01:13:33.452] well, you know, I, I al- in our area I always heard the doorknob or the Fifth A. bus. [01:13:33.452 – 01:13:38.392] But, but you know, Bill got much more liberal about this God idea as he, as he got older. [01:13:38.392 – 01:13:40.072] But, and, and he did. [01:13:40.072 – 01:13:45.152] He really, really said a lot of things that, that opened it up on the face value. [01:13:45.152 – 01:13:50.732] But anytime you scratch the surface on Bill W., he's, he's talk, he's talking about a providential God. [01:13:50.732 – 01:13:51.772] That's what he's talking about. [01:13:51.772 – 01:13:56.452] But he was trying to make it much, much more accessible for people in his later writings.

[01:13:56.452 – 01:14:01.172] But this is, this is September 1938 that we got going here. [01:14:01.172 – 01:14:07.012] I mean, nine- September 1938, he, he had not, shall we say, progressed to that point yet, so. [01:14:07.012 – 01:14:08.932] Thank you. [01:14:08.932 – 01:14:09.612] Thank you, Bill. [01:14:09.612 – 01:14:11.592] And, uh, Carl V. [01:14:11.592 – 01:14:12.752] from Germantown. [01:14:12.752 – 01:14:15.292] Thank you.

[01:14:15.292 – 01:14:17.712] My name is Carl and I'm an alcoholic. [01:14:17.712 – 01:14:22.332] Thank you so much, Bill, uh, uh, for the chapter. [01:14:22.332 – 01:14:33.012] The question I have, did any organized religious sect or denomination [01:14:33.012 – 01:14:44.102] in 1939 use the phrase "God as we understand [01:14:44.102 – 01:14:44.103] Him"? [01:14:44.103 – 01:14:46.372] Uh, as far as I know, not. [01:14:46.372 – 01:14:56.402] You know, I, I've, I've mentioned here a, a couple of times I've had this argument a number of ti- I, I've had this argument a lot of times with my friend Jay S., who's gonna do his talk on the Oxford Group,

[01:14:56.402 – 01:14:56.692] you know? [01:14:56.692 – 01:14:59.192] And, and Jay claims that it's right there, you know? [01:14:59.192 – 01:14:59.912] It's right there. [01:14:59.912 – 01:15:01.232] He says it's right there. [01:15:01.232 – 01:15:02.412] And I say, "Show me. [01:15:02.412 – 01:15:03.252] Show me the words. [01:15:03.252 – 01:15:10.712] Show me the words." And he'll say something like, "Well, you know, Sam S. said," or, or, or, "Frank B. said…" This is the Oxford Group guy.

[01:15:10.712 – 01:15:15.072] He said, "Meet a man where he is." I said, "Well, yeah, I got that. [01:15:15.072 – 01:15:23.852] Meet a man where he is." I, I, I understand that that would be a great way to approach somebody if you're a proselytizer for a particular first century Christian approach. [01:15:23.852 – 01:15:28.072] But that, that doesn't say, "God as you understand Him," you know? [01:15:28.072 – 01:15:28.682] It's just- Yeah … [01:15:28.682 – 01:15:31.092] it says, "Meet a man where he is." It's a completely different thing. [01:15:31.092 – 01:15:32.772] So- Yeah, it's not said. [01:15:32.772 – 01:15:35.232] It's not said.

[01:15:35.232 – 01:15:42.732] To my knowledge, I have never found anything in the 1930s that support "God as you understand Him" within any Christian denominations. [01:15:42.732 – 01:15:43.432] Right. [01:15:43.432 – 01:15:52.852] I, I, I'm in contact with a lot of the youth people, and they find the phrase divisive. [01:15:52.852 – 01:16:01.992] They think it'd be much better if it just said "God" without the qualification. [01:16:01.992 – 01:16:13.492] They read the AA literature just using the word "God" on its own, and most of these people find, like, in step [01:16:13.492 – 01:16:15.852] two, confusing. [01:16:15.852 – 01:16:17.611] Confusing.

[01:16:17.611 – 01:16:20.232] In step three, confusing. [01:16:20.232 – 01:16:24.722] They don't find it helpful or enlightening or useful. [01:16:24.722 – 01:16:27.272] Thank you. [01:16:27.272 – 01:16:28.292] Thank, thank you. [01:16:28.292 – 01:16:29.812] Thank you, Carl. [01:16:29.812 – 01:16:31.932] And, uh, John. [01:16:38.844 – 01:16:39.424] Still muted.

[01:16:39.424 – 01:16:44.864] Still muted, John I just said some brilliant stuff there. [01:16:44.864 – 01:16:47.704] No, I said thank you Jim and Bill and David. [01:16:47.704 – 01:16:48.684] Thank you so much. [01:16:48.684 – 01:16:58.724] And when I was reading, I think I heard, I'm an old man and I've had a stroke, I think I heard most of us were, most of us who came in [01:16:58.724 – 01:17:02.064] were, um, agnostic or atheist. [01:17:02.064 – 01:17:03.864] Did I, did I hear that in the reading? [01:17:03.864 – 01:17:06.084] Yeah, he says about half of us were.

[01:17:06.084 – 01:17:06.414] Yeah. [01:17:06.414 – 01:17:07.004] Half of us. [01:17:07.004 – 01:17:08.014] Sorry, half of us. [01:17:08.014 – 01:17:09.104] And who said that? [01:17:09.104 – 01:17:10.944] Just remind me, Bill, who said that? [01:17:10.944 – 01:17:14.204] Bill W. says it in, in, in the first writing of this chapter. [01:17:14.204 – 01:17:14.574] Oh, okay.

[01:17:14.574 – 01:17:14.684] Yeah. [01:17:14.684 – 01:17:15.374] That's exactly what he says. [01:17:15.374 – 01:17:18.744] No, that, that's pretty, that's pretty significant, I thought. [01:17:18.744 – 01:17:21.264] Half of us were, were agnostic and atheist. [01:17:21.264 – 01:17:22.144] Yeah, thank you. [01:17:22.144 – 01:17:24.464] And the- Oh, and John- Yes, sorry. [01:17:24.464 – 01:17:25.184] Sorry, Bill.

[01:17:25.184 – 01:17:30.014] Again, he's, he's trying to write this in a very inviting way for, for, for the- Yeah … [01:17:30.014 – 01:17:30.664] for the unbeliever. [01:17:30.664 – 01:17:31.524] He's saying- Yeah … [01:17:31.524 – 01:17:32.544] "Come on in, buddy. [01:17:32.544 – 01:17:33.794] We're all together in this. [01:17:33.794 – 01:17:34.144] We've been… [01:17:34.144 – 01:17:35.574] We know what you're talking about.

[01:17:35.574 – 01:17:38.264] We've been there, done that ourselves, half of us." Wow. [01:17:38.264 – 01:17:38.484] So. [01:17:38.484 – 01:17:39.044] Yeah. [01:17:39.044 – 01:17:41.184] Uh, just, just one thing. [01:17:41.184 – 01:17:42.084] Sorry, Jim. [01:17:42.084 – 01:17:52.324] I just, Bill, say, um, I was, I was on another podca- uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, site yesterday and, um, a, a, a psychiatrist from, uh, [01:17:52.324 – 01:17:56.844] David B., Professor D. Best from, um, uh, Sh- uh, Scotland.

[01:17:56.844 – 01:17:57.264] Brilliant. [01:17:57.264 – 01:17:57.824] It was brilliant. [01:17:57.824 – 01:17:59.704] I'll send it to you guys if you want. [01:17:59.704 – 01:18:01.914] He, he was talking about the benefits of AA. [01:18:01.914 – 01:18:07.064] But one of the things he was saying is, and I'll see if I can get the paper, they said they did a paper. [01:18:07.064 – 01:18:17.364] And he, he said that only 10% of people in Alcoholics who they are, who they questioned in, in AA identified as having come through the route of spirituality. [01:18:17.364 – 01:18:18.944] I thought that was interesting.

[01:18:18.944 – 01:18:28.134] Only 10% of people that he met said, "Yes, the, the thing that brought me into Alcoholics Anonymous or got me sober was the spiritual aspect." Just I thought that was interesting. [01:18:28.134 – 01:18:34.264] Well, John, John, I don't think we should ever be surprised by the lack of comprehension by people in Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:18:34.264 – 01:18:34.584] You know? [01:18:34.584 – 01:18:35.004] Yeah. [01:18:35.004 – 01:18:41.684] How many, how many times have I been to a second step meeting when people talk about the insanity of the things they do when they're drunk? [01:18:41.684 – 01:18:42.304] Right. [01:18:42.304 – 01:18:46.623] I mean, that's about 95% of the comments that I hear in second step meetings.

[01:18:46.623 – 01:18:49.364] And that is not what we are talking about, people. [01:18:49.364 – 01:18:59.424] We're talking about no booze in your body, picking up the first drink, which this, this chapter, More A. Alcoholism, just beats you over the head with that again and again [01:18:59.424 – 01:19:00.044] and again. [01:19:00.044 – 01:19:05.164] And, and, and AA people drive right by it over and over and over again. [01:19:05.164 – 01:19:07.384] It just makes me crazy at second step meetings. [01:19:07.384 – 01:19:07.704] Mm-hmm. [01:19:07.704 – 01:19:09.124] Thanks, Bill.

[01:19:09.124 – 01:19:09.274] Thanks, Bill. [01:19:09.274 – 01:19:09.844] Thank you, Jim. [01:19:09.844 – 01:19:18.684] And, and, uh, in, in that part where it, it mentions it actually twice in, in the sh- span of two paragraphs. [01:19:18.684 – 01:19:21.364] You know, 50% of us, half of us. [01:19:21.364 – 01:19:22.804] It says it twice. [01:19:22.804 – 01:19:26.204] Again- Okay … [01:19:26.204 – 01:19:26.824] Gigi.

[01:19:26.824 – 01:19:30.824] Hey, everybody. [01:19:30.824 – 01:19:35.704] Um, thank you to our readers, first of all, on St. [01:19:35.704 – 01:19:36.724] Patrick's Day. [01:19:36.724 – 01:19:39.824] And I have actually two questions. [01:19:39.824 – 01:19:43.164] Oh, and thank you, Jim, for, you know, for coordinating us. [01:19:43.164 – 01:19:51.964] My first question is do I hear Hank P.'s influence in when Bill writes to Dr. [01:19:51.964 – 01:19:55.144] Bob about his confusion about this chapter?

[01:19:55.144 – 01:20:01.084] Well, that would be speculation, Gigi, but it's good speculation. [01:20:01.084 – 01:20:06.404] I, I, I wouldn't doubt that, uh, that Hank was standing over him saying, "This is too damn preachy, Bill. [01:20:06.404 – 01:20:07.164] Too damn preachy. [01:20:07.164 – 01:20:08.024] Too damn preachy. [01:20:08.024 – 01:20:09.444] People are gonna go south on you. [01:20:09.444 – 01:20:14.504] As m- soon as they get halfway through this thing, they're going south." So yeah, I mean, yeah. [01:20:14.504 – 01:20:18.294] But we don't have any evidence for that, but certainly it- Okay …

[01:20:18.294 – 01:20:21.224] it, that's a credible, credible speculation. [01:20:21.224 – 01:20:21.484] Yeah. [01:20:21.484 – 01:20:29.024] Okay, so my second question has to do with the people who were selected. [01:20:29.024 – 01:20:38.764] Were, were people selected by the doctors to be introduced to the idea of Alcoholics Anonymous at T. Hospital? [01:20:38.764 – 01:20:48.924] Um- You know how they went, um, and doc- in Akron, [01:20:48.924 – 01:20:49.274] um, Dr. [01:20:49.274 – 01:20:50.224] Bill, or Dr.

[01:20:50.224 – 01:20:50.814] Bill, Dr. [01:20:50.814 – 01:20:57.344] Bob calls up the hospital and says, "Do you have any prospects for me?" And the nurse says, "Yes, we have one." Yeah, yeah. [01:20:57.344 – 01:20:59.084] In, in, in that sense, yes. [01:20:59.084 – 01:21:03.344] They were, the, these guys were welcome at, at T. Hospital. [01:21:03.344 – 01:21:06.404] And, and so for instance, a Bill R. story. [01:21:06.404 – 01:21:10.724] Bill, Bill, Bill R. gets sober in February of 1937, and he's in the hospital. [01:21:10.724 – 01:21:12.444] He's in T. for the second time.

[01:21:12.444 – 01:21:18.434] And doctor, according to Bill's story, uh, and a letter to Bill, he says that T. said to him, uh, uh, Dr. [01:21:18.434 – 01:21:21.604] S. said to him, "Listen, I, we got a solution for you. [01:21:21.604 – 01:21:24.744] I'm gonna have some guys visit you." And the guys come in and talk to him. [01:21:24.744 – 01:21:29.584] And then, and they basically say, "You need to go talk to Bill W.." So he goes and talks to Bill W. afterwards. [01:21:29.584 – 01:21:32.394] So yeah, yeah, W., W., both Dr. [01:21:32.394 – 01:21:41.984] S. and, uh, Charles T. were very big supporters of, of what they were doing, and gave them, gave them ready access to the, to the people in T. Hospital at that time. [01:21:41.984 – 01:21:42.624] Absolutely.

[01:21:42.624 – 01:21:52.724] S- so then were, was one of the things that they used maybe, um, whether this person had any kind of a religious background? [01:21:52.724 – 01:21:59.764] Well, I mean, the, the, the first person Bill W. gets sober out of T. Hospital is Hank P.. [01:21:59.764 – 01:22:01.384] He's, he's basically- No. [01:22:01.384 – 01:22:01.794] … [01:22:01.794 – 01:22:03.764] Hank, he's an agnostic at the time. [01:22:03.764 – 01:22:05.034] And the second p- person he gets- [01:22:05.356 – 01:22:15.456] gets sober out of T. Hospital is, is, uh, is Fitz M., and Fitz is the guy who doesn't believe in God and then falls on his knees and says, "Who did you say who isn't God?" So, and, and

[01:22:15.456 – 01:22:16.836] Fitz ends up being… [01:22:16.836 – 01:22:18.936] His, his father was an Episcopalian minister. [01:22:18.936 – 01:22:19.306] Right. [01:22:19.306 – 01:22:20.596] Fitz goes back to Jesus. [01:22:20.596 – 01:22:21.416] I mean, he goes back. [01:22:21.416 – 01:22:22.666] He really wanted a- Yeah … [01:22:22.666 – 01:22:24.426] he wanted a very Christian book.

[01:22:24.426 – 01:22:26.336] Not just a religious book, but a Christian book. [01:22:26.336 – 01:22:31.236] And, um, and of course Hank is, by the time Hank gets sober, he's, he, he doesn't buy into… [01:22:31.236 – 01:22:33.156] He's, he's more of a deist than anything else. [01:22:33.156 – 01:22:35.736] He's not really an agnostic or an atheist anymore. [01:22:35.736 – 01:22:37.036] He's more of a deist. [01:22:37.036 – 01:22:41.456] But of course, the deists believe that God created the universe and then went away. [01:22:41.456 – 01:22:42.156] Okay.

[01:22:42.156 – 01:22:47.436] So there's no way you can pray to a deist God and get help from him, 'cause he's no longer on the scene. [01:22:47.436 – 01:22:48.536] Gone. [01:22:48.536 – 01:22:49.296] Gone, yeah. [01:22:49.296 – 01:22:54.766] So it's an interesting, really, and it's a huge difference between Bill W. and Hank P., isn't it? [01:22:54.766 – 01:22:58.876] And it, it fuels all of their arguments over what should and shouldn't go into this book. [01:22:58.876 – 01:23:00.676] Thank you. [01:23:00.676 – 01:23:01.896] Hey, thank you, Bill.

[01:23:01.896 – 01:23:02.736] Thank you, Gigi. [01:23:02.736 – 01:23:03.756] Alan. [01:23:03.756 – 01:23:05.856] Hey, everybody. [01:23:05.856 – 01:23:06.796] Thanks, Bill. [01:23:06.796 – 01:23:09.416] Thanks, David. [01:23:09.416 – 01:23:17.836] Um, I'm happy you mentioned the fact that it wasn't the drink, it's why we picked up the drink. [01:23:17.836 – 01:23:19.996] I was nuts in kindergarten.

[01:23:19.996 – 01:23:23.336] Not to give, you know, a qualification here. [01:23:23.336 – 01:23:30.376] It took me a long time, till I was 14, maybe eight more, seven more years to pick up a drink. [01:23:30.376 – 01:23:35.776] I was in more trouble without the drink through, up until the age of 43. [01:23:35.776 – 01:23:41.576] I don't remember getting into much fighting, much judgmentalness, the insanity. [01:23:41.576 – 01:23:47.496] Most of my insanity was, you know, judgmentalness to this day. [01:23:47.496 – 01:23:50.636] Irritability, discontent. [01:23:50.636 – 01:23:54.856] The drink filled that up until it stopped working.

[01:23:54.856 – 01:24:05.096] But the insanity, the second step, I always ask the people who come into the program, "How was it before you picked up your first drink?" [01:24:05.096 – 01:24:09.556] And most of them at first say, "Well, I don't remember." Then they say, "Hold it. [01:24:09.556 – 01:24:11.856] I didn't really get along. [01:24:11.856 – 01:24:22.116] I was, like, not feeling very comfortable with myself." And, um, the compulsion to drink, I mean, I stopped drinking probably 1,000 times. [01:24:22.116 – 01:24:25.156] Every time I got, you know, a hangover. [01:24:25.156 – 01:24:27.856] Every time I, you know, uh… [01:24:27.856 – 01:24:31.716] M- mostly a hangover, or I felt out of shape the next day.

[01:24:31.716 – 01:24:33.736] So thanks for bringing that up. [01:24:33.736 – 01:24:35.276] It's so important to understand. [01:24:35.276 – 01:24:38.316] The booze is a symbol of the problem. [01:24:38.316 – 01:24:41.196] It's not the actual problem. [01:24:41.196 – 01:24:44.656] I got the problem now, but I have the 12 steps. [01:24:44.656 – 01:24:47.316] And thank you so much for writing this book. [01:24:47.316 – 01:24:49.036] It's been a joy coming to listen.

[01:24:49.036 – 01:24:49.456] Thank you. [01:24:49.456 – 01:24:50.306] Thank you, Alan. [01:24:50.306 – 01:24:50.307] Thank you. [01:24:50.307 – 01:24:50.636] Thank you, Alan. [01:24:50.636 – 01:24:53.716] Listen, listen, Jim, if I could, I just want to say a couple of things. [01:24:53.716 – 01:24:59.196] First of all, I just want to say out loud that I love Jim's story about putting the whiskey in the milk. [01:24:59.196 – 01:25:02.716] It's my favorite, favorite thing in the entire book.

[01:25:02.716 – 01:25:12.776] And most especially because the page before, Jim has been slipping and sliding, and the, the elders get together trying to figure out what Jim's problem is, and they, they identify Jim's [01:25:12.776 – 01:25:13.256] problem. [01:25:13.256 – 01:25:16.736] Jim has failed to enlarge his spiritual life. [01:25:16.736 – 01:25:21.036] Man, I think that should be tattooed on my forehead or something, you know? [01:25:21.036 – 01:25:21.906] I mean, it's just… [01:25:21.906 – 01:25:22.216] That… [01:25:22.216 – 01:25:27.756] My project here to stay sober is to enlarge my spiritual life, which is an ongoing thing.

[01:25:27.756 – 01:25:31.656] It's not a loaf of bread I go to the store and bring home and I got one, you know? [01:25:31.656 – 01:25:32.496] It's an ongoing thing. [01:25:32.496 – 01:25:33.616] So I love Jim's story. [01:25:33.616 – 01:25:36.716] Jim's story is, like, honestly, God, it's my favorite thing in the entire book. [01:25:36.716 – 01:25:39.976] And the other thing was I got a, I get these great questions from people. [01:25:39.976 – 01:25:42.756] Um, sometimes they're great questions. [01:25:42.756 – 01:25:51.726] But a guy said to me, "How come steps three through 12 in the Big Book are all italicized?" So when Bill says, "Now we are at the third step," that's italicized.

[01:25:51.726 – 01:25:54.116] And the fourth step, and the fifth, they're all italicized. [01:25:54.116 – 01:25:56.636] How come the first and second step aren't italicized? [01:25:56.636 – 01:25:59.376] And I thought, "Now that's a really interesting question. [01:25:59.376 – 01:26:05.616] You know, that's really cool." But as I try and be clear in the book, there, there is a solution. [01:26:05.616 – 01:26:07.816] Talks about the first step and the second step. [01:26:07.816 – 01:26:11.496] You're d- you're, if you're a real alcoholic you have no defense against a first drink. [01:26:11.496 – 01:26:13.516] And two, oh, yes you do.

[01:26:13.516 – 01:26:16.136] You could get yourself a, a, a vital spiritual experience. [01:26:16.136 – 01:26:18.376] That's what you need to get between you and the first drink. [01:26:18.376 – 01:26:28.496] And then of course, More A. Alcoholism picks up the first of those principles and elaborates on it in, in, and, and then We Agnostics takes the second of those principles [01:26:28.496 – 01:26:29.776] and elaborates on them. [01:26:29.776 – 01:26:39.796] So I said to the guy, "You know, you couldn't really, since the steps don't show up until chapter five, you can't really be saying, well, step one in chapter two, and step three [01:26:39.796 – 01:26:41.076] in chapter four. [01:26:41.076 – 01:26:41.936] It…

[01:26:41.936 – 01:26:43.556] You know, you just, you don't do that. [01:26:43.556 – 01:26:45.176] That's, that would just confuse the reader. [01:26:45.176 – 01:26:48.696] Like, what the hell is this guy talking about?" So, so they didn't introduce… [01:26:48.696 – 01:26:50.116] Uh, this is what I told the guy. [01:26:50.116 – 01:26:54.236] They didn't introduce the italics until they got to three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, and 12. [01:26:54.236 – 01:26:55.336] So anyhow, that's… [01:26:55.336 – 01:26:58.916] Hey, thank you, Bill.

[01:26:58.916 – 01:27:00.986] Anyone else have a question? [01:27:00.986 – 01:27:05.476] George B. asked me to ask, uh, what, what is meant by enlarging your spiritual life? [01:27:05.476 – 01:27:10.156] Well, you know, that is a great question. [01:27:10.156 – 01:27:14.436] We don't have an hour and a half to, for me to do that, 'cause I would love to be doing that. [01:27:14.436 – 01:27:15.816] Uh, it's, it's… [01:27:15.816 – 01:27:19.956] Enlarging your spiritual life is, is something quite different for everybody. [01:27:19.956 – 01:27:22.096] I mean, I sponsor eight guys.

[01:27:22.096 – 01:27:27.956] I live with a woman who's, who's got a great spiritual life, but she's doing stuff completely different from what I'm doing, you know? [01:27:27.956 – 01:27:33.096] And, and, and in my opinion, in my opinion, there's a spectrum. [01:27:33.096 – 01:27:33.506] I think every- [01:27:33.796 – 01:27:37.416] I think, I think everything quite frankly in, in the universe is on a spectrum, but there's a spectrum. [01:27:37.416 – 01:27:47.656] And there's a spiritual spectrum, and it goes from everything that's about Bill S. over here to over here, there's, there's, there's, there's like, there's almost [01:27:47.656 – 01:27:48.816] egolessness. [01:27:48.816 – 01:27:50.536] I'm just egoless.

[01:27:50.536 – 01:27:54.056] And in between is this is the spectrum. [01:27:54.056 – 01:28:00.796] And I can enlarge my spiritual life, and in the daytime every single day, the, the needle on my spirituality moves. [01:28:00.796 – 01:28:04.136] How much is it all about me, and how much is it not all about me? [01:28:04.136 – 01:28:14.136] And, uh, and anything that contributes to me being less all about Bill S. is, in my opinion, valuable [01:28:14.136 – 01:28:15.676] in enlarging my spiritual life. [01:28:15.676 – 01:28:19.336] Now, that's my personal opinion, but I, I sponsor guys who don't. [01:28:19.336 – 01:28:20.556] They got something completely different.

[01:28:20.556 – 01:28:22.316] And whatever it is, it's working for them. [01:28:22.316 – 01:28:28.716] If it's working for them, it's working for them, and, and it's getting between them and the first drink, and I'm all in favor of that. [01:28:28.716 – 01:28:29.356] I'm… [01:28:29.356 – 01:28:31.456] Then, people don't have to do what I do. [01:28:31.456 – 01:28:33.676] My wife certainly doesn't have to do what I do. [01:28:33.676 – 01:28:35.676] Her, her understanding is completely different. [01:28:35.676 – 01:28:40.166] So she and I s- she and I meditate every night for 15 minutes after dinner, and I always…

[01:28:40.166 – 01:28:44.316] I had a guy ask me Monday night, you know, "Talk to me about meditation." I said, "Well, I don't… [01:28:44.316 – 01:28:54.396] I, I'd be happy to talk to you about what, you know, what, what goes on, but, uh, I, I don't have a formula for that." I said, "You know, my, my wife is a fabulous meditator, but she's, uh, she's not doing anything like what I'm [01:28:54.396 – 01:28:55.416] doing." Mm. [01:28:55.416 – 01:28:59.036] She's enlarging her spiritual life according to her own lights. [01:28:59.036 – 01:29:01.515] And thank you, Bill. [01:29:01.515 – 01:29:06.096] Um, and, uh, Nick, do you have a question? [01:29:06.096 – 01:29:08.016] Yeah.

[01:29:08.016 – 01:29:09.106] Good evening, everybody. [01:29:09.106 – 01:29:09.776] My name's Nick. [01:29:09.776 – 01:29:10.516] Hi. [01:29:10.516 – 01:29:14.356] Like, like you, Bill, I really love Jim's story, you know. [01:29:14.356 – 01:29:22.856] And enlarge, failing to enlarge his spiritual life was due to that, in my view, that resentment he had against his boss who took over his company was holding him back. [01:29:22.856 – 01:29:32.996] You know, but the question I, uh, I wanted to ask you was that the story of the guy that stayed sober for 25 years and then, then died four [01:29:32.996 – 01:29:40.856] years after joining, you know, in a timeline, that would've took him back to like 19, 1910 or 1908.

[01:29:40.856 – 01:29:46.916] You know, and I've never understood why that's in there, because that would've been like pre-war, pre-'17, you know. [01:29:46.916 – 01:29:51.076] You know, it just seems out of context of what was going on around that time. [01:29:51.076 – 01:30:00.276] Well, I, I think, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm very clear in my book that Bill W. told parables and myths, you know. [01:30:00.276 – 01:30:01.756] And maybe this is one of those. [01:30:01.756 – 01:30:04.276] You know, he was, he was just trying to make a point. [01:30:04.276 – 01:30:13.716] He was just trying to rub people's no- In this chapter, he's just trying to rub people's nose in the fact that if you're a real alcoholic, you know, you, you just, you're just, you're gone. [01:30:13.716 – 01:30:14.676] You're just, that's it.

[01:30:14.676 – 01:30:15.056] You know? [01:30:15.056 – 01:30:15.576] It's just… [01:30:15.576 – 01:30:25.656] So, so W., uh, it's funny, I had to, I had to blank out my screen because, uh, at the beginning of this call, because I just, just an hour before the call [01:30:25.656 – 01:30:30.436] I published, uh, uh, I'm a rare book dealer, a catalog of, of William J.' books. [01:30:30.436 – 01:30:34.416] And a, a, a big, big deal collector called me, and I had to talk to him on the phone. [01:30:34.416 – 01:30:37.756] But, but James always talked about the cash value, you know. [01:30:37.756 – 01:30:47.796] And, and he wanted to know what the, if, if, if, if, if an idea has a positive influence in your life and you act differ- if you act differently, then it has

[01:30:47.796 – 01:30:48.676] cash value. [01:30:48.676 – 01:30:55.036] And then he would, he got a lot of grief over the fact that he was using this American capitalist image. [01:30:55.036 – 01:30:58.296] But, but I understand exactly what it is, you know. [01:30:58.296 – 01:31:03.276] So W. was looking for stories that had cash value, that could change the way people thought and the way people acted. [01:31:03.276 – 01:31:13.316] And, uh, and I, I think, you know, in relation with just enlarging your spiritual life, I mean, I got people who do all kinds of, uh, spiritual things, but it doesn't seem to change [01:31:13.316 – 01:31:15.336] them or their behavior at all. [01:31:15.336 – 01:31:18.636] So it's got no cash value, you know.

[01:31:18.636 – 01:31:19.956] I'm a cash value guy. [01:31:19.956 – 01:31:21.396] I lo- I love William J.. [01:31:21.396 – 01:31:22.856] I, I think he's just… [01:31:22.856 – 01:31:28.376] We could all fruitfully spend some time reading William J., spend a little time with that really smart dude I think. [01:31:28.376 – 01:31:28.876] Anyhow. [01:31:28.876 – 01:31:30.476] Yeah. [01:31:30.476 – 01:31:31.476] I agree with that.

[01:31:31.476 – 01:31:33.056] Anyone else have any questions? [01:31:33.056 – 01:31:37.876] If there are no further questions, I'll turn it back to David. [01:31:37.876 – 01:31:40.416] Thank you, everyone. [01:31:40.416 – 01:31:44.976] I just, Bill, if it's okay, we'll go, go back to you to close and in just a few moments, if that's okay, Bill S.. [01:31:44.976 – 01:31:47.436] Is that okay with a prayer or a thought or something? [01:31:47.436 – 01:31:54.935] I just want to put up this flyer again for tomorrow, Bill, uh, just to mention this for ourself that we have coming up briefly. [01:31:54.935 – 01:31:58.576] Oh, yeah, the clocks are going forward here on the 24th, just to let you know.

[01:31:58.576 – 01:32:03.386] Next week we're on One H. Men C., chapter 15, uh, 1938. [01:32:03.386 – 01:32:05.096] So we're on that, uh, next week. [01:32:05.096 – 01:32:07.656] Obviously we're on chapter 15, One H. Men C.. [01:32:07.656 – 01:32:11.696] This is tomorrow night in my home group in Camberwell, practicing these principles. [01:32:11.696 – 01:32:15.716] Uh, but this is with Mildred F. from, um, Eddie G. [01:32:15.716 – 01:32:19.736] introduced me, from Toronto, who I met here, introduced me to Mildred. [01:32:19.736 – 01:32:25.856] And she's gonna come along and do two weeks for us, uh, applying four-dimensional principles to our third-dimensional life.

[01:32:25.856 – 01:32:35.956] And then as I said, we have the following week, we have, um, Jay S. is coming back to us, and he's gonna be, "Whatever happened to the Oxford Group?" And he's gonna be, uh, [01:32:35.956 – 01:32:38.956] updating us on his work on his book project on Bill W.. [01:32:38.956 – 01:32:42.756] Okay, I don't know what recovery speakers are doing this Tuesday. [01:32:42.756 – 01:32:43.936] I haven't found a flyer yet. [01:32:43.936 – 01:32:46.216] If anyone wants to just put it in the chat, we'd appreciate that. [01:32:46.216 – 01:32:51.896] And you know this is going on still, It C. of Age group, and Pass It On. [01:32:51.896 – 01:32:55.676] And it's always great to be safe to say I turn the meeting back to Mr.

[01:32:55.676 – 01:32:56.656] Bill S.. [01:32:56.656 – 01:32:59.816] Bill, will you close with, uh, and maybe give some, yes. [01:32:59.816 – 01:33:00.436] Thank you, everyone. [01:33:00.436 – 01:33:01.635] You seem to be cl- applauding there. [01:33:01.635 – 01:33:01.846] Thank you [01:33:01.948 – 01:33:02.128] Thank you. [01:33:02.128 – 01:33:03.388] Woo-hoo.

[01:33:03.388 – 01:33:04.568] Woo-hoo, yeah. [01:33:04.568 – 01:33:04.928] Thank you. [01:33:04.928 – 01:33:05.468] Thank you. [01:33:05.468 – 01:33:05.868] Thank you. [01:33:05.868 – 01:33:06.198] Thank you. [01:33:06.198 – 01:33:16.248] Um, as David well knows, 'cause we've been through this a number of times, um, I go to meetings and they say, "You know, we're gonna close with this prayer or the prayer of your choice." Well, the prayer of my choice is the [01:33:16.248 – 01:33:17.488] Buddhist evening gatha.

[01:33:17.488 – 01:33:24.928] So when, when I close a meeting, I always say the Buddhist evening gatha, and I invite you to silently say a prayer of your own choice. [01:33:24.928 – 01:33:30.228] So after a moment of silence, we will, uh, do the gatha. [01:33:30.228 – 01:33:38.308] Let me respectfully remind you, life and death are of supreme importance. [01:33:38.308 – 01:33:42.588] Time swiftly passes by and opportunity is lost. [01:33:42.588 – 01:33:46.267] Each of us should strive to awaken, awaken. [01:33:46.267 – 01:33:50.968] Take heed, this night your days are diminished by one. [01:33:50.968 – 01:33:53.308] Do not squander your life.

[01:33:53.308 – 01:33:55.808] Oh, Bill, wonderful. [01:33:55.808 – 01:33:56.348] Thank you. [01:33:56.348 – 01:33:57.228] Thank you, everyone. [01:33:57.228 – 01:33:59.188] Wow. [01:33:59.188 – 01:34:02.488] Thank you, Bill and David. [01:34:02.488 – 01:34:04.888] Thank you, Bill and David. [01:34:04.888 – 01:34:05.548] Thank you, everyone.

[01:34:05.548 – 01:34:07.007] Thank you, everyone. [01:34:07.007 – 01:34:07.407] Thank you. [01:34:07.407 – 01:34:08.828] Thanks so much. [01:34:08.828 – 01:34:09.647] Thank you. [01:34:09.647 – 01:34:09.698] Thank you. [01:34:09.698 – 01:34:11.168] Thank you, David, so much. [01:34:11.168 – 01:34:13.208] It was another wonderful Thursday.

[01:34:13.208 – 01:34:15.828] Thank you, Bill, David, and Riley. [01:34:15.828 – 01:34:17.308] Thank you. [01:34:17.308 – 01:34:18.408] Thanks, everyone. [01:34:18.408 – 01:34:19.498] Thanks, Bill and David. [01:34:19.498 – 01:34:20.268] Thanks, everyone. [01:34:20.268 – 01:34:22.848] I love me working on that accent of yours. [01:34:22.848 – 01:34:26.558] Okay, just to- What accent?

[01:34:26.558 – 01:34:28.988] I keep complimenting him on his accent. [01:34:28.988 – 01:34:30.048] What accent? [01:34:30.048 – 01:34:30.688] Anyway. [01:34:30.688 – 01:34:31.748] I know exactly. [01:34:31.748 – 01:34:34.028] Oh, that, that accent. [01:34:34.028 – 01:34:36.367] I didn't know I had an accent. [01:34:36.367 – 01:34:37.848] That was brilliant, David.

[01:34:37.848 – 01:34:38.748] You were so good. [01:34:38.748 – 01:34:39.507] Oh, thank you, John. [01:34:39.507 – 01:34:40.828] You really pulled it off. [01:34:40.828 – 01:34:42.368] David, it was on the money. [01:34:42.368 – 01:34:44.288] Bit of the alcoholic in me. [01:34:44.288 – 01:34:46.068] No, no, that was the actor. [01:34:46.068 – 01:34:47.208] Well, that was the actor.

[01:34:47.208 – 01:34:48.708] David, you're good at the acting. [01:34:48.708 – 01:34:49.748] Very good. [01:34:49.748 – 01:34:52.908] It, um, it was right on point, man. [01:34:52.908 – 01:34:54.018] Quote, quote Bill. [01:34:54.018 – 01:34:55.038] He covered it. [01:34:55.038 – 01:34:56.108] Shayberg covered it, didn't he? [01:34:56.108 – 01:34:58.078] He, he's got, Bill has got it, but he's brilliant.

[01:34:58.078 – 01:34:58.348] Oh, yeah, yeah. [01:34:58.348 – 01:34:59.738] He really covered it. [01:34:59.738 – 01:35:00.048] Oh, yeah. [01:35:00.048 – 01:35:02.008] It's so good. [01:35:02.008 – 01:35:05.448] The new generation are getting into that hopefully now, but it is. [01:35:05.448 – 01:35:07.088] That's what, like I go now. [01:35:07.088 – 01:35:09.048] I, uh- David, what's that again?

[01:35:09.048 – 01:35:09.808] Sorry, David. [01:35:09.808 – 01:35:10.057] I missed all of it … [01:35:10.057 – 01:35:15.018] I'd like to think the new people coming in are being introduced to this book, you know, i- and compendium- Oh, yeah … [01:35:15.018 – 01:35:16.108] with the, with the big book, you know? [01:35:16.108 – 01:35:16.967] Yeah, yeah. [01:35:16.967 – 01:35:17.908] I'd like to think that's what… [01:35:17.908 – 01:35:20.208] I sponsor guys, I try and introduce them to that.

[01:35:20.208 – 01:35:20.688] Not… [01:35:20.688 – 01:35:25.598] You don't have to read it all, but I just say, "There is such a book as right in the big book that created me." Mm-hmm. [01:35:25.598 – 01:35:26.908] That was fabulous, yes. [01:35:26.908 – 01:35:31.668] No, there's a lot in there that they appreciate, that answers questions of like- Exactly … [01:35:31.668 – 01:35:39.588] "What are they saying?" And because it, it, sometimes you hear stuff in meetings, and you try to run it through the big book and it just doesn't jive. [01:35:39.588 – 01:35:42.948] And I think Bill's, Shayberg's book helps. [01:35:42.948 – 01:35:43.668] Yes.

[01:35:43.668 – 01:35:44.928] For an inquiry make, isn't it? [01:35:44.928 – 01:35:45.598] Right, that's right. [01:35:45.598 – 01:35:47.288] It satisfies that thirst we have, yeah. [01:35:47.288 – 01:35:48.118] Yeah, yeah. [01:35:48.118 – 01:35:49.428] David, I have a question. [01:35:49.428 – 01:35:50.997] Go on, Alan. [01:35:50.997 – 01:35:55.568] This week, this week we're going on Friday to 6:00 o- Eastern S. Time.

[01:35:55.568 – 01:36:01.128] Will next week go back to 5:00 because you're moving the clocks forward, or how is it working? [01:36:01.128 – 01:36:04.268] It's on, it's on the last Sunday of the month we're going forward. [01:36:04.268 – 01:36:04.508] 27th. [01:36:04.508 – 01:36:06.348] So it's the 27th. [01:36:06.348 – 01:36:07.408] Thank you, Al- uh, John. [01:36:07.408 – 01:36:08.948] We're going back on the, on the 27th. [01:36:08.948 – 01:36:10.588] So next week will be as is today.

[01:36:10.588 – 01:36:11.748] Right. [01:36:11.748 – 01:36:14.468] Next F. will be also. [01:36:14.468 – 01:36:15.018] Yep. [01:36:15.018 – 01:36:15.019] Yep, next Friday. [01:36:15.019 – 01:36:17.848] And then after, after that we'll go to, uh, back. [01:36:17.848 – 01:36:20.657] The following Thursday, yeah, we'll go back to- Yeah … [01:36:20.657 – 01:36:21.348] the 5:00 again.

[01:36:21.348 – 01:36:22.448] Okay. [01:36:22.448 – 01:36:23.468] This is wonderful. [01:36:23.468 – 01:36:24.528] And, and- So thanks so much. [01:36:24.528 – 01:36:25.448] Thank you, Alan. [01:36:25.448 – 01:36:27.128] We're synced up again actually. [01:36:27.128 – 01:36:28.208] Thanks again, David. [01:36:28.208 – 01:36:29.088] Thank you, Andrea.

[01:36:29.088 – 01:36:30.888] Hey, guy, hey, guys. [01:36:30.888 – 01:36:31.138] David. [01:36:31.138 – 01:36:31.628] Hey, guys. [01:36:31.628 – 01:36:33.638] What was the name of that- Roy has his hand up … [01:36:33.638 – 01:36:37.248] what was the name of that Buddhist prayer that Bill closed with? [01:36:37.248 – 01:36:37.578] Oh, the Gita. [01:36:37.578 – 01:36:37.688] The Gita.

[01:36:37.688 – 01:36:38.368] Was it the Gita? [01:36:38.368 – 01:36:39.598] Uh, anyone tell me on that? [01:36:39.598 – 01:36:40.688] The Gita. [01:36:40.688 – 01:36:41.798] The Gita. [01:36:41.798 – 01:36:41.878] The gatha. [01:36:41.878 – 01:36:42.348] The evening gatha. [01:36:42.348 – 01:36:42.847] Thank you.

[01:36:42.847 – 01:36:43.168] Thank you. [01:36:43.168 – 01:36:46.217] Roy has his hand up. [01:36:46.217 – 01:36:48.088] I think Roy has a statement or a question. [01:36:48.088 – 01:36:50.148] Yeah, I was, that was my question. [01:36:50.148 – 01:36:53.538] Does anyone know where we can find it and, uh, or have a camera? [01:36:53.538 – 01:36:54.408] I'll Google it for you, yeah. [01:36:54.408 – 01:36:57.368] I'll Google it or whatever, or DuckDuckGo or whatever you want to call it.

[01:36:57.368 – 01:36:59.268] I'll, I'll try and get it up on the screen for you. [01:36:59.268 – 01:37:04.308] If you know how to spell it, I can Google it, but Yeah, go for it if you can. [01:37:04.308 – 01:37:05.368] Go for it if you can. [01:37:05.368 – 01:37:06.348] I just do what I'm… [01:37:06.348 – 01:37:09.338] I was trying to f- someone said to me about Stepping S. were doing St. [01:37:09.338 – 01:37:10.528] Patrick's Day or something. [01:37:10.528 – 01:37:11.468] I didn't, couldn't find it.

[01:37:11.468 – 01:37:13.988] Evening, Jim. [01:37:13.988 – 01:37:15.488] Evening gatha. [01:37:15.488 – 01:37:16.348] Evening gatha. [01:37:16.348 – 01:37:18.728] G-A-T-H-A Like B.. [01:37:18.728 – 01:37:19.417] Gatha for Buddhist. [01:37:19.417 – 01:37:19.808] There you go. [01:37:19.808 – 01:37:20.388] There you go.

[01:37:20.388 – 01:37:20.927] There you go. [01:37:20.927 – 01:37:21.438] There you go. [01:37:21.438 – 01:37:22.208] Evening gatha. [01:37:22.208 – 01:37:24.068] Oh, you got it? [01:37:24.068 – 01:37:24.788] Evening gatha. [01:37:24.788 – 01:37:25.168] Yeah. [01:37:25.168 – 01:37:31.128] Jen monastery, at the monastery store videos and- Evening gatha.

[01:37:31.128 – 01:37:32.428] Where's the writing of it? [01:37:32.428 – 01:37:34.508] Where are some of the best- How do I recite the gatha? [01:37:34.508 – 01:37:35.448] Yeah. [01:37:35.448 – 01:37:36.228] Where's that, uh… [01:37:36.228 – 01:37:37.148] There you go. [01:37:37.148 – 01:37:38.678] How do you spell gatha? [01:37:38.678 – 01:37:40.598] G-A-T-H-A.

[01:37:40.598 – 01:37:41.148] G-A-T-H-A. [01:37:41.148 – 01:37:42.468] Where's the… [01:37:42.468 – 01:37:43.308] Is there any dialogue for it? [01:37:43.308 – 01:37:44.768] Well, that was easy. [01:37:44.768 – 01:37:45.068] There you go. [01:37:45.068 – 01:37:46.408] Look, here's a picture of it. [01:37:46.408 – 01:37:52.408] I, I, I try and have your- Yep, that's it.

[01:37:52.408 – 01:37:54.488] So f- can I enlarge that? [01:37:54.488 – 01:37:54.768] Can I… [01:37:54.768 – 01:37:54.918] No. [01:37:54.918 – 01:37:55.878] How do I do that? [01:37:55.878 – 01:37:57.398] Oh. [01:37:57.398 – 01:37:59.768] Where's he gone, I mean? [01:37:59.768 – 01:38:00.668] There's your…

[01:38:00.668 – 01:38:05.538] David, if you, if you just, uh, choose images on Google, then a lot of options come. [01:38:05.538 – 01:38:06.068] Ah, yes. [01:38:06.068 – 01:38:06.428] Thank you. [01:38:06.428 – 01:38:06.927] Thank you. [01:38:06.927 – 01:38:07.308] Thank you. [01:38:07.308 – 01:38:08.188] That's what I need to do. [01:38:08.188 – 01:38:09.278] Yes, thank you very much.

[01:38:09.278 – 01:38:10.228] So you go… [01:38:10.228 – 01:38:11.688] Oh, there you go. [01:38:11.688 – 01:38:12.908] So I just click on- That's it. [01:38:12.908 – 01:38:16.028] Oh. [01:38:16.028 – 01:38:19.868] We'll go this one. [01:38:19.868 – 01:38:20.448] How is this one? [01:38:20.448 – 01:38:24.908] Good job.

[01:38:24.908 – 01:38:25.228] Yeah. [01:38:25.228 – 01:38:25.608] Yay. [01:38:25.608 – 01:38:26.988] No? [01:38:26.988 – 01:38:28.168] Am I doing this wrong, Alan? [01:38:28.168 – 01:38:29.228] No, that went. [01:38:29.228 – 01:38:30.208] I need a sponsor [01:38:32.360 – 01:38:33.570] Someone's sponsored me .

[01:38:33.570 – 01:38:35.040] One previous. [01:38:35.040 – 01:38:35.920] I, I lose the plot. [01:38:35.920 – 01:38:37.240] How do you make- There it is … [01:38:37.240 – 01:38:38.470] how do you enlarge this though? [01:38:38.470 – 01:38:39.060] How do you… [01:38:39.060 – 01:38:42.090] You can take it, you can see it anyway. [01:38:42.090 – 01:38:42.370] There you go.

[01:38:42.370 – 01:38:43.040] That's- Oh, there. [01:38:43.040 – 01:38:43.050] Oh, yeah … [01:38:43.050 – 01:38:43.600] full screen. [01:38:43.600 – 01:38:44.360] There we go. [01:38:44.360 – 01:38:45.199] There we go. [01:38:45.199 – 01:38:46.840] Yeah, there you are. [01:38:46.840 – 01:38:49.880] You can take a screenshot.

[01:38:49.880 – 01:38:51.120] Yeah, you can take a screenshot. [01:38:51.120 – 01:38:51.150] Yeah. [01:38:51.150 – 01:38:52.280] I might do myself, actually. [01:38:52.280 – 01:38:53.660] It's a good, quite a good thing, isn't it? [01:38:53.660 – 01:38:56.080] Just let me- Good. [01:38:56.080 – 01:38:57.220] Oh. [01:38:57.220 – 01:39:00.860] Thank you all so much for a wonderful afternoon.

[01:39:00.860 – 01:39:01.660] Oh, thank you. [01:39:01.660 – 01:39:02.620] Appreciate you. [01:39:02.620 – 01:39:02.829] It was lovely. [01:39:02.829 – 01:39:04.900] Thank you so much for reading, David. [01:39:04.900 – 01:39:06.640] Thank you, Debbie. [01:39:06.640 – 01:39:07.240] Good to see you. [01:39:07.240 – 01:39:08.600] Thanks, everyone.

[01:39:08.600 – 01:39:09.980] Have a good evening, everybody. [01:39:09.980 – 01:39:10.829] Thank you. [01:39:10.829 – 01:39:11.000] Yeah. [01:39:11.000 – 01:39:12.869] Lovely having you, David. [01:39:12.869 – 01:39:13.730] You're very expressive. [01:39:13.730 – 01:39:13.731] Have a good one. [01:39:13.731 – 01:39:14.620] You're very expressive with your reading.

[01:39:14.620 – 01:39:15.680] Thank you, David. [01:39:15.680 – 01:39:17.240] Thank you. [01:39:17.240 – 01:39:17.810] David. [01:39:17.810 – 01:39:18.820] Keith, it's nice to see you. [01:39:18.820 – 01:39:20.380] David. [01:39:20.380 – 01:39:20.950] Me too, David. [01:39:20.950 – 01:39:22.200] You still recording?

[01:39:22.200 – 01:39:23.360] Hello, Jim D.. [01:39:23.360 – 01:39:24.120] Yeah. [01:39:24.120 – 01:39:24.840] Me too. [01:39:24.840 – 01:39:26.140] Thank you for a good reading. [01:39:26.140 – 01:39:26.829] Thank you for a good reading. [01:39:26.829 – 01:39:27.800] We'll see you tomorrow. [01:39:27.800 – 01:39:29.200] We'll see you tomorrow with Mildred.

[01:39:29.200 – 01:39:29.900] Yeah. [01:39:29.900 – 01:39:31.080] Hopefully, yeah, yeah. [01:39:31.080 – 01:39:32.660] Thank you, David. [01:39:32.660 – 01:39:33.420] That was great. [01:39:33.420 – 01:39:34.009] Thank you, Chris. [01:39:34.009 – 01:39:38.400] I enjoyed hearing you at the, uh, Sunrise S. meeting yesterday morning. [01:39:38.400 – 01:39:39.660] Oh, you were at the meeting.

[01:39:39.660 – 01:39:40.010] Well done. [01:39:40.010 – 01:39:40.030] Thank you . [01:39:40.030 – 01:39:40.600] Oh, yeah. [01:39:40.600 – 01:39:41.540] Absolutely. [01:39:41.540 – 01:39:47.860] And I screenshotted all your information about all these, um, w- Workshops … [01:39:47.860 – 01:39:48.170] workshops that you had. [01:39:48.170 – 01:39:48.320] Yeah.

[01:39:48.320 – 01:39:53.040] Really so awesome to be able to hear this and- Well, thank you for dropping in … [01:39:53.040 – 01:39:53.570] mm-hmm. [01:39:53.570 – 01:39:53.900] Yeah. [01:39:53.900 – 01:39:54.580] Thank you. [01:39:54.580 – 01:39:56.540] Pleasure. [01:39:56.540 – 01:39:56.660] Hello. [01:39:56.660 – 01:39:58.260] We'll see you next time.

[01:39:58.260 – 01:39:58.270] Thank you. [01:39:58.270 – 01:39:59.660] Yes, we'll see you next time, Chris. [01:39:59.660 – 01:39:59.810] Yeah. [01:39:59.810 – 01:40:00.880] See you tomorrow. [01:40:00.880 – 01:40:02.160] Yes, thank you. [01:40:02.160 – 01:40:03.110] Look forward to it. [01:40:03.110 – 01:40:03.850] Bye.

[01:40:03.850 – 01:40:04.560] All right, David. [01:40:04.560 – 01:40:04.610] Bye, David. [01:40:04.610 – 01:40:05.020] Take care. [01:40:05.020 – 01:40:05.880] We'll see you tomorrow. [01:40:05.880 – 01:40:06.720] Thanks very much. [01:40:06.720 – 01:40:08.360] Eddie G, good to see you. [01:40:08.360 – 01:40:08.880] Eddie.

[01:40:08.880 – 01:40:09.740] All right, take care. [01:40:09.740 – 01:40:10.720] All right. [01:40:10.720 – 01:40:11.660] Bye-bye now. [01:40:11.660 – 01:40:12.510] David. [01:40:12.510 – 01:40:13.080] Bye. [01:40:13.080 – 01:40:14.560] Have a blessed day. [01:40:14.560 – 01:40:15.660] Thank you, Roy.

[01:40:15.660 – 01:40:16.219] Good to see you. [01:40:16.219 – 01:40:17.080] David. [01:40:17.080 – 01:40:18.420] David, good to see you. [01:40:18.420 – 01:40:21.210] David, the, uh, the, the- David … [01:40:21.210 – 01:40:24.480] tomorrow is not a, a history topic, is it? [01:40:24.480 – 01:40:26.760] Well, let's see, is it? [01:40:26.760 – 01:40:28.380] Well, Jim, you know you can make…

[01:40:28.380 – 01:40:30.830] Not that I, I don't think so. [01:40:30.830 – 01:40:32.390] I think it's more of a- No. [01:40:32.390 – 01:40:32.391] No … [01:40:32.391 – 01:40:34.910] a dis- it's more of a, a spiritual talk. [01:40:34.910 – 01:40:35.340] How's that? [01:40:35.340 – 01:40:36.490] Is that- That's, that's correct Yeah. [01:40:36.490 – 01:40:37.500] It'll be a spiritual.

[01:40:37.500 – 01:40:38.260] That's- Thank you, Joyce. [01:40:38.260 – 01:40:39.400] Joyce, good- Remember, yeah. [01:40:39.400 – 01:40:45.289] Remember that Eddie and I, that's how I met you, 'cause I said Eddie and I had to leave early one night because- That's right, Joyce. [01:40:45.289 – 01:40:46.660] It was you and I who mentioned it. [01:40:46.660 – 01:40:47.080] Yes … [01:40:47.080 – 01:40:47.090] the country. [01:40:47.090 – 01:40:47.091] Yes.

[01:40:47.091 – 01:40:49.240] You forget so quickly, David. [01:40:49.240 – 01:40:49.530] You forget. [01:40:49.530 – 01:40:50.080] I do. [01:40:50.080 – 01:40:51.729] How could I forget you, my g- You forget … [01:40:51.729 – 01:40:51.880] my love? [01:40:51.880 – 01:40:52.910] How could I forget you, Joyce? [01:40:52.910 – 01:40:53.650] I don't know.

[01:40:53.650 – 01:40:55.860] That's a fairly important thing. [01:40:55.860 – 01:40:56.789] Anyway, you know. [01:40:56.789 – 01:40:57.600] Out of sight, out of mind, Joyce. [01:40:57.600 – 01:40:58.300] I think you missed… [01:40:58.300 – 01:40:58.930] And I… [01:40:58.930 – 01:41:03.140] So we always go on a Friday night to her spiritual class, right? [01:41:03.140 – 01:41:04.979] Well, I guess it's not a history one, Jim.

[01:41:04.979 – 01:41:05.440] No. [01:41:05.440 – 01:41:05.740] Mm-mm. [01:41:05.740 – 01:41:07.100] I don't think. [01:41:07.100 – 01:41:15.560] She, she'll talk about AA because she's got 48 years of sobriety, but yeah, I would say it's more of a spiritual thing. [01:41:15.560 – 01:41:17.640] It's a re- I call it the recovery workshop, Jim. [01:41:17.640 – 01:41:18.360] Is that, is that- Yes. [01:41:18.360 – 01:41:18.860] Correct.

[01:41:18.860 – 01:41:20.040] I would say so, David. [01:41:20.040 – 01:41:20.680] Yeah. [01:41:20.680 – 01:41:22.740] And, and actually we could say it's growing. [01:41:22.740 – 01:41:24.580] It's, it's enlarging on our spiritual growth. [01:41:24.580 – 01:41:25.740] Would that be fair enough to say? [01:41:25.740 – 01:41:25.849] I would say. [01:41:25.849 – 01:41:27.480] I would say so, definitely.

[01:41:27.480 – 01:41:27.980] Yeah. [01:41:27.980 – 01:41:29.009] I, I would say so. [01:41:29.009 – 01:41:29.740] That's exactly, yeah. [01:41:29.740 – 01:41:31.900] That's exactly how I, I interpret it. [01:41:31.900 – 01:41:38.720] I connected it to Bill, uh, Bill's, um, point on enlarging our spiritu- spiritual life. [01:41:38.720 – 01:41:39.840] Yes. [01:41:39.840 – 01:41:39.870] Yes.

[01:41:39.870 – 01:41:40.120] Yes. [01:41:40.120 – 01:41:40.640] No, I agree. [01:41:40.640 – 01:41:41.920] The how to. [01:41:41.920 – 01:41:43.580] We're improving. [01:41:43.580 – 01:41:46.670] 'Cause it says our next function is to grow in understanding and effectiveness. [01:41:46.670 – 01:41:49.060] He says, they actually say that when we get to step 10, right? [01:41:49.060 – 01:41:49.880] Mm-hmm.

[01:41:49.880 – 01:41:51.180] Mm-hmm. [01:41:51.180 – 01:41:54.660] And she'll tell you a bit about her history, her own storyline. [01:41:54.660 – 01:42:02.420] I'm sure that's, she always mentions those, you know, her own history in AA and how spiritually it's changed and what have you. [01:42:02.420 – 01:42:02.680] Yeah. [01:42:02.680 – 01:42:02.880] Yeah. [01:42:02.880 – 01:42:07.960] She said she can do 40, 45 minutes for us 'cause she has to go off and do her own workshop as well at, uh- That's correct … [01:42:07.960 – 01:42:08.590] at the health or something.

[01:42:08.590 – 01:42:08.970] That's correct. [01:42:08.970 – 01:42:10.760] I wondered how she was going to do that. [01:42:10.760 – 01:42:10.980] Yeah. [01:42:10.980 – 01:42:11.150] I know. [01:42:11.150 – 01:42:11.360] We had… [01:42:11.360 – 01:42:12.550] 'Cause we forgot about the hour. [01:42:12.550 – 01:42:14.600] When I booked it in, I forgot about the, the hour.

[01:42:14.600 – 01:42:15.780] I know. [01:42:15.780 – 01:42:15.849] I know. [01:42:15.849 – 01:42:17.120] Clocks going back and stuff like that. [01:42:17.120 – 01:42:20.280] Well, it was- I was gonna have to call Jim early during the week at, for one, at one stage. [01:42:20.280 – 01:42:21.080] Yeah. [01:42:21.080 – 01:42:23.040] I don't think you'll be disappointed. [01:42:23.040 – 01:42:24.540] I think you'll find it interesting.

[01:42:24.540 – 01:42:25.780] No, she's decided to commit. [01:42:25.780 – 01:42:27.100] A f- fair play to her. [01:42:27.100 – 01:42:28.020] Yeah. [01:42:28.020 – 01:42:28.360] No, no. [01:42:28.360 – 01:42:29.700] She, she will do. [01:42:29.700 – 01:42:30.380] Yeah. [01:42:30.380 – 01:42:30.700] Anyway.

[01:42:30.700 – 01:42:31.820] Marsha, you're mad to say something. [01:42:31.820 – 01:42:32.460] I know you are. [01:42:32.460 – 01:42:34.199] You, you want to jump in, Marsha. [01:42:34.199 – 01:42:35.180] How are you doing, my dear? [01:42:35.180 – 01:42:36.060] I, I do. [01:42:36.060 – 01:42:36.700] I'm sorry. [01:42:36.700 – 01:42:37.710] I, I, I just want- No.

[01:42:37.710 – 01:42:38.300] No, no … [01:42:38.300 – 01:42:41.720] I want you to, first of all, you were a beautiful reader. [01:42:41.720 – 01:42:42.970] I, I love- Oh. [01:42:42.970 – 01:42:46.319] Hearing the reading with your beautiful voice. [01:42:46.319 – 01:42:46.810] Oh. [01:42:46.810 – 01:42:47.050] I love it. [01:42:47.050 – 01:42:48.080] Thank you.

[01:42:48.080 – 01:42:50.019] Um- Agreed. [01:42:50.019 – 01:42:51.690] I, uh- Thank you, Eddie … [01:42:51.690 – 01:43:01.800] I wa- I want you to repeat again, is the meeting next week, this meeting next week, is it at the usual former [01:43:01.800 – 01:43:04.100] time or it's the same time as was today? [01:43:04.100 – 01:43:05.260] Same time as today. [01:43:05.260 – 01:43:05.940] Okay. [01:43:05.940 – 01:43:06.460] Thank you.

[01:43:06.460 – 01:43:09.840] And tomorrow's will be the same time. [01:43:09.840 – 01:43:10.880] It's gonna be four hours. [01:43:10.880 – 01:43:12.880] You're still four hours behind us at the moment. [01:43:12.880 – 01:43:16.140] Right now everything is four hours behind. [01:43:16.140 – 01:43:18.220] On the East C. is four hours behind us. [01:43:18.220 – 01:43:21.400] And when we go forward again, we go back to five hours ahead. [01:43:21.400 – 01:43:25.340] I wonder why they don't change everybody's time at the same time.

[01:43:25.340 – 01:43:26.860] See, it's late, isn't it? [01:43:26.860 – 01:43:31.380] Um- They're, they're thinking about it, but then nothing seems to g- get moved. [01:43:31.380 – 01:43:32.440] Right. [01:43:32.440 – 01:43:32.510] Right. [01:43:32.510 – 01:43:33.940] It's so ridiculous. [01:43:33.940 – 01:43:43.960] Marsha, we last, just quickly, Marsha, you, I don't think you were here one of the meetings last week, Thursday or Friday, and we were talking about when I was away on holiday a couple of [01:43:43.960 – 01:43:53.780] weeks ago, I went back to one of the recordings that you were meeting David and the group for the first time or the first time you were reading the book, and it was such a lovely…

[01:43:53.780 – 01:43:58.510] You know, I was wished on this holiday with a bunch of people that drank, and I just needed a meeting [01:43:58.661 – 01:44:02.432] or I just needed to hear some AA chat, and I went on to that. [01:44:02.432 – 01:44:09.562] And it was a lovely meeting because you were talking about your own history and anyway, I just want you to know- Oh … [01:44:09.562 – 01:44:10.982] it got me through… [01:44:10.982 – 01:44:13.042] I needed to just hear something. [01:44:13.042 – 01:44:14.072] Oh, how nice. [01:44:14.072 – 01:44:14.462] It was lovely, nice.

[01:44:14.462 – 01:44:17.072] It must have been during the question and answer or something? [01:44:17.072 – 01:44:19.792] Oh, I think you were just, it was after the question and answer. [01:44:19.792 – 01:44:21.992] Yeah, you were talking, talking for a little. [01:44:21.992 – 01:44:22.002] Yeah. [01:44:22.002 – 01:44:22.082] We chat, Marsha. [01:44:22.082 – 01:44:22.642] We were having a chat, Marsha. [01:44:22.642 – 01:44:23.472] Just talking.

[01:44:23.472 – 01:44:24.252] Oh, right. [01:44:24.252 – 01:44:24.812] It, it was lovely. [01:44:24.812 – 01:44:25.972] I think about your dad or something. [01:44:25.972 – 01:44:27.502] You were talking about your dad and, and something. [01:44:27.502 – 01:44:27.742] Yeah, okay. [01:44:27.742 – 01:44:32.992] Yeah, and I think just talking about your life and just how you'd found that meeting and- Mm-hmm. [01:44:32.992 – 01:44:33.382] Wonderful …

[01:44:33.382 – 01:44:34.172] it, it was just really nice. [01:44:34.172 – 01:44:34.632] Yeah. [01:44:34.632 – 01:44:35.692] Oh, wonderful. [01:44:35.692 – 01:44:36.272] Yeah. [01:44:36.272 – 01:44:36.812] Yes, yes. [01:44:36.812 – 01:44:39.572] It's always a blessing to be able to share at a meeting. [01:44:39.572 – 01:44:40.332] Yep.

[01:44:40.332 – 01:44:40.592] Yeah. [01:44:40.592 – 01:44:42.002] We never know who we touch. [01:44:42.002 – 01:44:42.252] All right. [01:44:42.252 – 01:44:44.092] Thank, thank you all very much. [01:44:44.092 – 01:44:46.162] I'll see you tomorrow. [01:44:46.162 – 01:44:46.192] Thank you, Jim. [01:44:46.192 – 01:44:47.252] We'll see you tomorrow, Jim.

[01:44:47.252 – 01:44:47.912] Yeah. [01:44:47.912 – 01:44:49.012] See you next week. [01:44:49.012 – 01:44:49.102] Bye J.. [01:44:49.102 – 01:44:50.052] Thanks again, Jim. [01:44:50.052 – 01:44:51.472] Thanks, Jim. [01:44:51.472 – 01:44:52.432] Good night, David. [01:44:52.432 – 01:44:53.332] Night, Tommy.

[01:44:53.332 – 01:44:54.012] Good to see you. [01:44:54.012 – 01:44:54.732] Tomorrow. [01:44:54.732 – 01:44:56.292] Good, Tommy. [01:44:56.292 – 01:44:57.342] Happy St. [01:44:57.342 – 01:44:58.152] Patrick's Day. [01:44:58.152 – 01:44:59.612] Same to you, David. [01:44:59.612 – 01:45:00.692] Bye D..

[01:45:00.692 – 01:45:01.772] And everyone. [01:45:01.772 – 01:45:02.422] See you tomorrow. [01:45:02.422 – 01:45:03.392] See you when, in Trinidad. [01:45:03.392 – 01:45:03.852] Yeah. [01:45:03.852 – 01:45:04.612] Yes, my brother. [01:45:04.612 – 01:45:05.272] See you all. [01:45:05.272 – 01:45:05.672] Bye.

[01:45:05.672 – 01:45:07.812] That's what I wanted to say. [01:45:07.812 – 01:45:09.972] Happy St.- What's that? [01:45:09.972 – 01:45:09.982] … [01:45:09.982 – 01:45:09.983] St. [01:45:09.983 – 01:45:10.702] Patrick's Day. [01:45:10.702 – 01:45:14.482] Yeah, I struggle- I was so late I actually missed most of the meeting. [01:45:14.482 – 01:45:15.342] I had to…

[01:45:15.342 – 01:45:19.062] entangled into conversations, tal- telephone conversations. [01:45:19.062 – 01:45:20.692] Don't call me at this time. [01:45:20.692 – 01:45:22.172] Well done. [01:45:22.172 – 01:45:22.922] Sure. [01:45:22.922 – 01:45:24.312] You've got your own book now as well. [01:45:24.312 – 01:45:25.502] I have to wait until t- You've got your own book, isn't it? [01:45:25.502 – 01:45:26.052] Yeah.

[01:45:26.052 – 01:45:26.462] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:45:26.462 – 01:45:31.152] I have to wait until tomorrow to, to pick it up on, um, Recovery Speakers and listen to it. [01:45:31.152 – 01:45:32.582] No, it's grand. [01:45:32.582 – 01:45:32.952] That's okay. [01:45:32.952 – 01:45:33.832] You know. [01:45:33.832 – 01:45:35.832] Oh, you want to listen to it again? [01:45:35.832 – 01:45:36.152] Are you…

[01:45:36.152 – 01:45:40.362] Well, I can add you to the email list if you want, rather than have the wait for them, if you want to. [01:45:40.362 – 01:45:40.722] Yeah. [01:45:40.722 – 01:45:41.512] If you really want to. [01:45:41.512 – 01:45:43.912] I, I, I am on your list here. [01:45:43.912 – 01:45:48.012] But I can, I can send a, a, the recording direct to you, I suppose, rather. [01:45:48.012 – 01:45:48.812] Oh. [01:45:48.812 – 01:45:50.332] If you wanted to do that.

[01:45:50.332 – 01:45:51.132] What a great man. [01:45:51.132 – 01:45:51.952] Send me an email to remind me. [01:45:51.952 – 01:45:54.332] Send me an email to remind me, and I'll- Oh, I'd love that too. [01:45:54.332 – 01:45:54.342] Yeah. [01:45:54.342 – 01:45:54.972] Yes. [01:45:54.972 – 01:45:56.192] Wow, what a service. [01:45:56.192 – 01:45:56.802] Thank you so much.

[01:45:56.802 – 01:45:59.392] Yeah, I'll just add you to the list when I'm sending it out. [01:45:59.392 – 01:46:00.042] Yeah. [01:46:00.042 – 01:46:00.422] Cheers, man. [01:46:00.422 – 01:46:00.423] Thank you. [01:46:00.423 – 01:46:00.672] Okay. [01:46:00.672 – 01:46:01.152] Can… [01:46:01.152 – 01:46:02.832] Will you send it to the email?

[01:46:02.832 – 01:46:03.752] Yeah. [01:46:03.752 – 01:46:05.412] If you send me, just remind me and I'll… [01:46:05.412 – 01:46:06.432] the recording of this. [01:46:06.432 – 01:46:08.851] We record these and I post them over on Recovery Speakers. [01:46:08.851 – 01:46:11.852] Well, uh, Mike K., uh, posts them up, but I can just… [01:46:11.852 – 01:46:14.112] You can have the recording as well if you wish. [01:46:14.112 – 01:46:14.991] Oh, that's great.

[01:46:14.991 – 01:46:15.502] Okay. [01:46:15.502 – 01:46:16.132] That's great. [01:46:16.132 – 01:46:16.322] That's great. [01:46:16.322 – 01:46:19.752] I'll, I'm gonna put in my email in the chat. [01:46:19.752 – 01:46:22.072] You, oh, yes, please do, and I, I, I'll take a copy. [01:46:22.072 – 01:46:22.102] Thank you. [01:46:22.102 – 01:46:22.372] Yes.

[01:46:22.372 – 01:46:24.682] I'm gonna go for- Thanks, David … [01:46:24.682 – 01:46:26.172] some cold cannon for St. [01:46:26.172 – 01:46:26.612] Patrick's. [01:46:26.612 – 01:46:29.802] I wish they didn't call it St. [01:46:29.802 – 01:46:30.421] Patrick's Day. [01:46:30.421 – 01:46:33.052] I wish they just called it, uh, Celtic I. Day or something. [01:46:33.052 – 01:46:34.122] I, I struggle with the St.

[01:46:34.122 – 01:46:35.092] Patrick's Day. [01:46:35.092 – 01:46:36.132] Me too. [01:46:36.132 – 01:46:37.012] Fair enough. [01:46:37.012 – 01:46:37.042] Fair enough. [01:46:37.042 – 01:46:38.732] I do struggle with it. [01:46:38.732 – 01:46:41.232] Well, well, Pat- Pat's Day. [01:46:41.232 – 01:46:41.952] Pat's Day.

[01:46:41.952 – 01:46:43.012] Oh, you know what I mean. [01:46:43.012 – 01:46:44.452] That man, you know, was he a saint? [01:46:44.452 – 01:46:45.192] Anyway, well. [01:46:45.192 – 01:46:47.052] Was he a saint or whatever. [01:46:47.052 – 01:46:48.912] Hello, Patrick O'D. [01:46:48.912 – 01:46:49.252] How are you? [01:46:49.252 – 01:46:51.272] Oh, Patrick O'D, see there's a saint for you.

[01:46:51.272 – 01:46:53.152] There's a s- if ever there was a saint. [01:46:53.152 – 01:46:53.442] There's a saint. [01:46:53.442 – 01:46:55.892] There's a- I was about to say, is he, is he there? [01:46:55.892 – 01:46:56.752] I, I didn't… [01:46:56.752 – 01:46:57.262] Yeah. [01:46:57.262 – 01:46:58.622] They haven't spoken tonight. [01:46:58.622 – 01:47:00.012] I think he must have bit his tongue.

[01:47:00.012 – 01:47:01.292] Did he bite his tongue maybe? [01:47:01.292 – 01:47:01.832] Yeah. [01:47:01.832 – 01:47:02.252] What happened? [01:47:02.252 – 01:47:02.402] Oh, dear. [01:47:02.402 – 01:47:02.772] Oh, dear boy. [01:47:02.772 – 01:47:05.752] Bite my tongue some- restraint of tongue and pen, David. [01:47:05.752 – 01:47:07.662] Restraint of tongue and pen, that's my favorite.

[01:47:07.662 – 01:47:09.912] I don't, I don't wanna upset the cart. [01:47:09.912 – 01:47:11.421] I, I hear you, Patrick. [01:47:11.421 – 01:47:12.312] Play the long game. [01:47:12.312 – 01:47:13.532] Play the long game, Patrick. [01:47:13.532 – 01:47:15.262] That's right. [01:47:15.262 – 01:47:15.263] I hear you. [01:47:15.263 – 01:47:16.022] 10th step, 10th step, really.

[01:47:16.022 – 01:47:20.212] Let's not let common sense rear its ugly head. [01:47:20.212 – 01:47:22.201] It, it, uh… [01:47:22.201 – 01:47:22.832] All right. [01:47:22.832 – 01:47:23.022] All right. [01:47:23.022 – 01:47:24.052] I hear you, Patrick. [01:47:24.052 – 01:47:25.792] Take care. [01:47:25.792 – 01:47:26.062] Bye-bye.

[01:47:26.062 – 01:47:26.272] See you… [01:47:26.272 – 01:47:27.532] Oh, lovely to see you, Marsha. [01:47:27.532 – 01:47:29.092] Good to see you. [01:47:29.092 – 01:47:29.712] Bye-bye. [01:47:29.712 – 01:47:30.732] Good to smell you. [01:47:30.732 – 01:47:30.892] God bless you, darling. [01:47:30.892 – 01:47:31.451] Take care.

[01:47:31.451 – 01:47:32.732] Thank you, guys. [01:47:32.732 – 01:47:34.952] So I'll see you tomorrow. [01:47:34.952 – 01:47:36.392] See you, Susanne. [01:47:36.392 – 01:47:37.232] What time are you… [01:47:37.232 – 01:47:37.452] Yeah. [01:47:37.452 – 01:47:39.232] We'll do the same thing everybody, will you? [01:47:39.232 – 01:47:39.692] Cheers, man.

[01:47:39.692 – 01:47:41.272] Will do just now. [01:47:41.272 – 01:47:41.492] Yeah. [01:47:41.492 – 01:47:41.912] Thank you. [01:47:41.912 – 01:47:43.122] That's what you're sending to me. [01:47:43.122 – 01:47:43.242] Thank you all. [01:47:43.242 – 01:47:43.912] Thanks, Riley. [01:47:43.912 – 01:47:44.622] Yeah.

[01:47:44.622 – 01:47:45.132] Everybody. [01:47:45.132 – 01:47:46.712] Thank you, Susanne, good to see you. [01:47:46.712 – 01:47:47.602] Hi. [01:47:47.602 – 01:47:51.092] So D., I had a guy from Belfast show up at my meeting today. [01:47:51.092 – 01:47:51.872] Yeah? [01:47:51.872 – 01:47:52.912] What did he say? [01:47:52.912 – 01:47:55.641] He's in Boston for, uh, on business.

[01:47:55.641 – 01:47:56.432] It was, uh, nice. [01:47:56.432 – 01:47:57.402] Seven years sober. [01:47:57.402 – 01:48:01.782] What was he say- That's cool. [01:48:01.782 – 01:48:03.472] Was he, was he on point? [01:48:03.472 – 01:48:06.052] Yeah, I think it was… [01:48:06.052 – 01:48:06.572] it's nice. [01:48:06.572 – 01:48:11.532] His son is going to Harvard and he's here on business, so he's gonna become a regular visitor.

[01:48:11.532 – 01:48:18.512] So, uh, we add one more people to the, one more person to the, uh, to the network, you know. [01:48:18.512 – 01:48:18.542] Yeah. [01:48:18.542 – 01:48:19.171] Which is nice. [01:48:19.171 – 01:48:20.272] Nice. [01:48:20.272 – 01:48:21.382] That's how it grows, right? [01:48:21.382 – 01:48:22.782] That's it, isn't it? [01:48:22.782 – 01:48:25.552] As you, you said, Sam S. was a master of one-on-one.

[01:48:25.552 – 01:48:27.632] That's exactly it. [01:48:27.632 – 01:48:28.492] That's the key. [01:48:28.492 – 01:48:36.132] And he wouldn't let you go in to spoil his other groups until you would settle down and decided you wanted to do something about your problem. [01:48:36.132 – 01:48:37.592] Nice. [01:48:37.592 – 01:48:38.842] You know? [01:48:38.842 – 01:48:39.372] That was it. [01:48:39.372 – 01:48:40.232] He didn't want to foul…

[01:48:40.232 – 01:48:41.892] Common welfare came first. [01:48:41.892 – 01:48:51.892] Why, why go ahead and destroy a very nice group of people who are working together trying to improve themselves by throwing in somebody who didn't even know if they had a problem, [01:48:51.892 – 01:48:53.252] or didn't believe it? [01:48:53.252 – 01:48:54.032] Mm. [01:48:54.032 – 01:48:55.472] That makes common sense to me. [01:48:55.472 – 01:49:05.561] See, I think he talked with Bill W. for a long time before he, before, uh, before he let, uh, Bill W. go to their, any of their, uh, Faith [01:49:05.561 – 01:49:06.432] At W. meetings.

[01:49:06.432 – 01:49:07.002] Right. [01:49:07.002 – 01:49:08.532] And the same thing with Rowland H.. [01:49:08.532 – 01:49:11.852] I know that he met with Rowland H. a number of times- Mm … [01:49:11.852 – 01:49:14.232] before he had introduced him to those people. [01:49:14.232 – 01:49:15.452] Wow. [01:49:15.452 – 01:49:16.632] That's brilliant. [01:49:16.632 – 01:49:18.262] Patrick, I'm still recording, I just realized.

[01:49:18.262 – 01:49:20.772] If you're okay with it on, I'll leave it on because that's good information. [01:49:20.772 – 01:49:22.472] Right. [01:49:22.472 – 01:49:23.191] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:49:23.191 – 01:49:23.812] I didn't realize. [01:49:23.812 – 01:49:25.372] Riley just told me, but we had that. [01:49:25.372 – 01:49:26.432] I'll just take it off then, go on.