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About this recording
- Topic
- 3 Clif G. (AA) Lori G. (AFG) Oklahoma, OK lets Talk About Sex Al-Anon Without Bo
- Speaker
- Clif G. and Lori G
- Date
- 2020-06-06
Transcript
Source: Clif G. and Lori G – 3 Clif G. (AA) Lori G. (AFG) Oklahoma, OK lets Talk About Sex Al-Anon Without Bo – 2020-06-06.mp3 File: clif-g-and-lori-g-3-clif-g-aa-lori-g-afg-oklahoma-ok-lets-talk-about-sex-al-anon-without-bo-2020-06-06.mp3 Duration: 00:58:46
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I think that's all I've got for now. I'm going to let you go. Great. You know, looking at sex conduct and, you know, the book, the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous says, you know, we, we treat sex as we would anything else. And, and I think that's really the way we ought to treat it in terms of how we look at it. You know, we treat it, we treat it the same. It's not, this is a, the Twelve and Twelve, Bill's essay in the Twelve and Twelve, he talks about that these are God-given instincts, our societal instinct, you know, the need to be social, to be around people, security, to have a home, to have, be secure.
And our sex, our sex instinct to create, to procreate, each one of those always have a feel-good at the end of it. The sex instinct obviously has a really good feel-good at the end of it, but they always have some kind of feel-good and it's the misuse of the feel-good that's the real problem here. And I have to know, you know, I've got to figure out the basis of that. And the basis of everything in my life is this separateness, this separation and this, this inability that I run my life on fear.
I mean, a great deal of everything in the life, in my life is dictated in decisions made on the basis of self and the basis of fear. You know, if I, if I, if I start going out with Susie when I'm a kid and Susie's really cute, you know, because I have an idea how this relationship should look. Now, I don't know about you all, but I'm big on assigning roles to people, but not really talking to them about it.
I'll just assign them a role and I'll tell, and I'll think about how it should look, but I don't tell them what's the part they're playing. And when they fail to meet the expectations of the role, and that is they don't tell me they love me enough, you know, they don't, that whatever it is, they don't say it the right way, they don't look, give me the right facial expression, whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
I assign people roles that they're supposed to play, to play in this drama of life. Selfishness, self-centeredness, the book tells us that's the root of my problem. And so what happens is, is that when people don't meet my expectations, I get afraid. It's, it's not right, it's not the right way. If they're not, they're not doing it right. And I believe it's because they have an agenda against me, because it's all against me.
I'm looking everything to the prison itself. It's just like when I won, I was the other day, I, I saw a picture of a toy that I got when I was a little kid. It was a little truck and it had a little horse trailer that hitched on it with two plastic horses that went in it. And I drove that truck all over America, you know, in my backyard, in my mind, imagining things. But what happened was, is that one day that toy got a scratch on it, and it wasn't as shiny as it used to be.
And so I needed something new again. And that's how my life has been. I've needed, I need something new. The new wears off for me. I get what I think I want. I think it, I think this is it. And then I begin to pick the flaws out of it. She doesn't, she doesn't look, she makes that funny noise at night when she sleeps. You know, like a chipmunk almost, weird. You know, makes that funny noise. And you know what, her clothes, she doesn't dress like really, just a little off.
And I begin to pick her apart. I begin to find all the flaws. And what really is, is because I have an idea in my mind how it should be, and it's not matching up to that. It doesn't match, doesn't match the picture. And so what happens when that doesn't work, then I get disappointed. When I get disappointed, because it's all about me, I become fearful. And what I do is I need to start, I need to go find a replacement for that.
That look, my history in relationships looks like that. Looks the same as the toy. It's the toy, it's the car, it's the woman, it's the job. We could, it's the sex partner, we could drop anything in there. Anything. It's all the same. For me, I get tired, it doesn't look, it doesn't look right. I need something that's not, it's what I thought I wanted. This is just not quite it. And the reason it is for a guy like me is what the book tells me is that, again, it goes back to this, where's my ultimate reliance?
[00:04:59]
Now I got, I'm clueless about this before I come to Alcoholics Anonymous.
[00:05:03]
Before I get sober, I got no idea about that. My idea, because I've got this illusion that I've created myself, this false power, I get easily restless, irritable, discontent, go back to seek ease and comfort. When I come to Alcoholics Anonymous, they offered me real ease and comfort, not the sense of it. See, whiskey gives me the sense of ease and comfort. What Alcoholics Anonymous has offered me is real ease and comfort.
They've, they introduced me to a path that put me on a road to a power that really sustains and work in my life. So when I look back, when I do inventory and look back on my life, most of the things that have happened to me, when I really took a good objective look at it, never really happened. I've created this scenario that my, and I've told this story so long, I begin to believe it, for me. And I create, I create resentments.
I came home, or I create scenarios for resentments, how about that? I'm a fertile breeding ground for resentments. And I'll just give you an example at about, I don't know, I was probably 15 or 16 years sober. I'll show you how quick I can fall back into fear. About 15 or 16 years sober, this was a couple years ago, Lori and I were leaving on a Friday. We're flying somewhere for a conference for the weekend.
I went and worked out that morning. And then I came home, and she wasn't here. I called her, she didn't answer. And I got back to the house, probably 9 o'clock, 8.45. She's not here. And immediately, you know the first thought in my head? My first thought in my head wasn't, well, she's ran to the store right quick, she's forgot something on the street. You know what my first thought was? She's left me.
She's left me. You know, we talk about defects of character. I like to talk about defaults of character. My first thought right back in, she's gone. The fear that she's leaving me. The fear that I'm never enough, I can't measure up, I'm not part of. She's leaving me. And I'm telling you, in that moment, it was as true as I am a person sitting in this chair. It was as real to me as that. She just left me.
And about five minutes later, she shows up. And I'm, thank God she didn't leave me. Or maybe she just forgot something and is coming back to her. You know, I don't really know yet. And I go, where were you? She said, I had to go to the bank or had to go somewhere. But how quick I am to default back or just back to my defects. Self. Isn't it our fears, our book tells us, the fundamental problem is that I've relied on self.
And when I rely on self, I always become fearful. Yet I run my whole life on self. I've tried to propel my life through self. And I self-perpetuate the thing that I don't want most of all. Fear. Fear I'm not going to get something that I have. I think I'm going to lose something I have. Or better yet, fear I'm not going to get something that I demand. Not that I want. A demand. Something I demand. And when you're governed like that, by this early exposure, I believe, to pornography.
Early exposure. You know, I hear all the time about people, particularly teenage girls. They have this, or maybe women in general. I don't know, body, what is it called? Where they see themselves? Body disorder. Yeah, where they see themselves doing how they are. I think that happens for a guy like me. I get this in my head of how everything's supposed to look. And those sex deals don't play. Because that's a movie.
It's fake. It's not real. But to me, that's all I know. It seems real to me. And I need everybody to play the role that I'm assigned to them. When they can't match that role, I get fearful. And I have this belief, because I'm separate from, that I don't measure up. So the only way I can feel I can do that, for me, was if I've got to somehow get my manhood by bedding enough women. And I think that's, I've sponsored a lot of men.
This is not an uncommon thought. Somehow or another, we get this idea. Maybe it comes from booing cavemen. I'm not sure. But this idea that somehow or another, I'm more of a man based on the notches in my bedposts. Don't know where it comes from. Just laying it out for you here. At least this is my experience. And this is the people I sponsor. This is a common theme I've heard.
[00:10:00]
It's fleeting. It's false. And when we look at that, it's an old idea. These are prejudices. When we talk about trying to build a relationship, our book talks about over and over and over again, we have to get rid of old ideas. How do you do that? How do you just come in one day and toss all that? This takes some work. This takes some inventory. This takes some long conversation and sponsorship on both sides.
I can tell you this. If you sponsor people, whatever your problems are, your problems will get up from the other side of the room, walk over to you and ask you to sponsor them. That's the way it has always worked for me. If I'm struggling in one area, they come to me. And what happens in the course of that sponsorship, like a light bulb goes on, I'm talking to them and I'll suddenly say to myself, gee, that sounds really good.
I should probably do that. This is how it works out. This is how when God brings two people together, he doesn't bring them together just for one to get help. That would be fruitless. When God brings two people together, both of those people, there's something for everybody there. Whether that's in sponsorship, in an intimate relationship, in a friendship. When God brings people together, it's not just so I can help that person.
I tell you what, we all know by sponsor people, I get much more out of that relationship than they do probably. Sometimes as I'm listening to people, I'm going, God has called me and sent him to me. He sent me to myself. It just happens that way. And through sponsorship, I've found a lot of the things that I've struggled with, some of the things I've struggled with early on, I had an experience early on as a kid when I was a preteen maybe, not in grade school, but in junior high.
I had an encounter with another guy. And that was a deep secret. I'm not telling anybody about this. I mean, it's so shameful for me. And so I would play out. I had to prove that I'm not gay because I believe I had this experimental deal when I'm a kid. I come to find out I'm not the only guy in AA that's had that kind of issue come to find out. But that was a thing that was so shameful for me early on that I had to.
I had this deep seated idea. I have to prove I'm not gay. I don't know where this information comes from. It flows through the universe, lands on our head. We begin to take action as if it's real. So my life experiences, how that looks, plays out for me in intimate sexual relationships. There's an idea. There's an old idea grounded there that I get something from the sex act other than the mere gratification what comes at the end of the act.
I'm getting something out of that. But that's the way it is in all defects of character. I'm getting something out of every defective character I've ever operated on until, as the book talks about, until they become objectionable. Until a defective character becomes objectionable, I'm going to continue to do it. I'm going to tell you one thing. This is one of the things I would do in my relationships.
I had a relationship with Lori. We would go out to a restaurant. There would be a cute little hostess that we knew. And I would just grab her, hold on to her, give her a hug, talk to her, not considering how that made her feel. Because I'm getting something out of that. Getting something out of it. And I don't consider how that makes her feel until one day she says to me, I'm done. Because then we get to a yip about it.
We'd be at the table. We'd get to fighting about it. But I can't hear her. You know when I can hear people? You know when I can finally hear there's a problem? When I finally wake up to the fact, to the pain it's causing me or the other person, I can see it. When I finally see the pain in you or can physically feel it in me, then I become awake to it. I don't know until I know. I can't see until I can see.
And one day I finally became awake to that. That's objectionable. Because it was hurting Lori. I did that for years. Not proud of that fact. But I became awake to that fact. And a product of being on a path and being willing to engage in inventory, being willing to be vulnerable. Inventory, Being Willing to Be Vulnerable, Being Willing to Talk Openly and Say, This
[00:15:03]
Is All About the Bed Wettin' and the Booger Eatin', This Is It, Right Here, I Mean I Gotta Get It All, I Need to Get It All on the Table, I Mean Talk About It, Lay It Out, Say How It Is, Cause Here's What I've Found, Here's What I've Discovered Here, We Are Much More Brothers and Sisters in Our Defects Than We Have Ever Been in Our Virtues, We Are Much More Alike in Our Defects Than We've Ever Been in the Good Will We Busted for Anybody, Yet We Don't Want Anybody to See That, My Ego Keeps That Under Wraps, My Ego Wants to Pull That In and Not Tell You, The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous Talks About This Idea in the Chapter of The Family After, It Talks About That Families Owe a Duty, an Obligation to Take Skeletons Out of the Closet, Things They Struggle With, Things That Have Been Hard for Them, To Bring Them Out of the Closet, Why, So Others May Avert the Same Problem, So Others May Walk Around the Pitfalls They Walked Into, It Gives Me No Great Pleasure Today to Sit Here and Tell You About Us or Listen to Laurie Tell You About My Conduct, There Is, I Don't Get Any Great Thrill of That, It's Not Like I Call Yvonne and Voluntarily Signed Up for This Duty Today, But What I Know Is, Through an Open Discussion and Interchange What Happened Is, Somebody Gets Permission Here Today to Say Me Too, I Feel Like That, I Thought Like That, I've Heard Like That, I'm in a Relationship Like That, I'm Not Alone, And That's What We Learn Here, That's What We Learn in Alcoholics Anonymous, The First Word and The First Step in Both of Our Programs are We, We, I Left to My Own Devices, I'm Drunk Again, Period, Left to Any of Our Own Devices, We're Back in That Darkness of Control, That Darkness of Alcoholism, We're Back in Our Cases Again, and What We Have to Do is Find, We Have to Be Willing to Talk About, Hey Look, I've Had Bad Sex Conduct, Hey, This Is, This Is My Life, Hey, But Let Me Tell You What I Have Found Out About Me, Let Me Tell You What God Has Revealed to Me, Alcoholics Anonymous, At the End of the Day, You Know, The Book Talks About The Real Problem is Self, Self, and This is Not New Information, I Mean 1935, When Bill and Bob Got Sober, When Bob Got Sober on June 10th, Which Marks Alcoholics Anonymous Anniversary Day, and the Subsequent Writing of the Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, Published in 1938, This is Not Like These Men Suddenly Came Up with Some Kind of Profound Psychological Revelation, This Has Been, Everything We Have in AA, We Stole it from Somebody, I Mean, We Stole it from Doctors, From Religions, We've Stolen Everything We Have, We've Taken it and Pulled it All Together, We Call it Alcoholics Anonymous, But It's, It Again All Evolves Around Deflation of Self, and Less Self, More Service to Others, and Ultimately Reliance Upon This God As We Understand Him, This Power Greater Than Our Alcoholics Anonymous, At the End of the Day, Every Problem I Have Can Always be Viewed, I Mean, It's All We Have Here, If You Look at Step 10 in the Big Book, It Tells Us, We Watch for These Things, When They Crop Up, Selfishness, Self-Centered Resentment, When These Fear, When They Crop Up, We Immediately Ask God to Help Us, Immediately, First Thing We Do, When I Get Fearful, First Thing I Was Supposed to Do, Was Pray, Ask God to Remove This At Once, Then I Was Supposed to Talk About It With Somebody Else, I Was Supposed to Make Amends If I Harmed Anybody, and Then It Says, I'm Immediately To Turn My Thoughts To Somebody I Can Help, That's All We Have Here, and When It Says, We Treat Sex As We Do Anything Else, If I Have a Bad Sex Thought, If I'm Engaged in Something I, That I'm Not Happy With, I've Got to Go to God With It, First Thing, Go to God, Then I've Got to Call My Sponsor and Tell Them Myself, and Then If I've Harmed Somebody, I've Got to Go Clean That Up and Make Amends for It, and Then I Need to Go Help Somebody, That's All We Got, We Don't Have Any Kind of Pop, Culture, Cute, Sprinkle Something on You, We Get Peers of Driven Snow and Never Sin Again, We Are, We Are By Our Very Nature, By The Fact That We're Here is Because We're Defective, There Used to Be a Guy in Oklahoma City, He'd Say, Alcoholics
[00:20:04]
Are the Upper Crust of the Mentally Ill, and I Believe That, I Really Believe That, We Are the Upper Crust of the Mentally Ill, and It's in Our Wine, That Those Guys, Those First 100 Pulled All That Together for Us and Capsulized It, and What's Happened for a Guy Like Me Is I've Been Able to Take That and Say, I Want to Go Deeper Than That, I Need Better Understanding That, and The Way I Get That is This Path to God.
The Sex Instinct, The Sex Inventory, Our Sex Conduct, Before and After, Before What Happens, It's All About Self, It's All About Me, It's I'm Operating Out of Fear, I Need to Feel More of a Man, I Need to Feel More in Control, I Need to Feel More, I Need to Feel Somebody Desires Me, Somebody Wants Me, It's All That, It's All That Ego Stuff, and The Sex Conduct, After I Come to Alcoholics Anonymous and Get Put on Some Kind of Path, The Script Flips, It Does This for All of Us, In Any Area of Our Life, The Script Flips, and Suddenly, My Job is to Be Less Concerned of Me and More Concerned with Lord, in Alcoholics Anonymous, In Order for Me to Stay Sober, I Have to Think Less of Me and More of You, What do I Need to Do for You, How Can I Be a Service to You, In This Relationship, What I Have to Do is, I Have to Be Less About Me and More About the Unit, You Know, If My Wants and My Desires Exceed and I Get Selfish in This Relationship, It Will Destroy It, and I Know That because Self has Destroyed Everything in My Life, Prior to Coming to Alcoholics Anonymous, Under Good Intentions, It's Just Been Destroyed, and So Here, You Know, The Real Struggle is it is for all of us to Get Less Self, More About the Unit, Less Self, More About My Partner, There are People who Struggle, I mean, There are Days, You Know, I Had to Have, I Made a Deal with Lori, I Came to Her and Said, Here's the Deal, There are Times when I Get This Low Grade Restless Irritable Discontinuous, I Don't Know How, Any Other Way to Explain It, It is a Low Grade Restless Irritable Discontinuous, It's Not Such that I Want to Drink, I Mean, I Know That Doesn't Work for Us, Sandy Returned to Me, To That Extent, I Know that I Can't Drink, I Know in My Heart, The Solution to Restless Irritable Discontinuous is Gone, It is the Only Solution that has Ever Worked, but There are Days I Forget That, There are Days that I Get Selfish in Restless Irritable Discontinuous, and I Thought Comes to Me, I Had This Bubbling Anxiety, I Know I'm Restless Irritable Discontinuous, I Can Watch 2 Minutes Before and Get Relief and Move Down the Road, I Can Get What I Need, I'm Down the Road and I Haven't Hurt Anybody, but That's Not True, See, That's a Lie, and the Book Says, I Can't Differentiate the Truth from the False, to Buy into that Lie that it's Just 2 Minutes and I Feel Better, I'll Get the End of the Sex Act, I'll Get Relief and I Can Move on, I'll Feel Better, that's not, that's a lie, the lie is that I'm, I don't give myself the opportunity to go to my partner and say, I'm in a bad spot, I'm Restless Irritable Discontinuous, it's never about just, it's never about watching porn and feeling better, the real issue is I'm disconnected from God, I am back in self, when I'm back in self, I am no use to anyone, but when I do that, I don't give the opportunity to say to my partner, I'm in a spot, can you sit down and talk to me, it's so much easier just to go and watch 2 minutes of porn and be done and get down the road, but see, that's just glosses over the real problem, the disconnection from God, Lori and I made a deal, I came here and said, listen, there are moments I have this low grade Restless Irritable Discontinuous, it's not that I want to drink, it's that I get in this spot, it's like I'm bored, it's like I get bored and I think, if I can just go do this, if I take 2 minutes and do this, I'll feel better, when I get there, I've got to be able to come to you and tell you that and you don't judge me, I'm not asking you to fix me, you don't need to have sex with me, I just need to say it out loud, I need to say it out loud to somebody that loves me, because it's not that I have this obsession, that's what I got to do,
[00:25:02]
what I have is the obsession that I'm just bored, I need something, I got to have some excitement that quick and I'm over it, but what that allowed me to do was be honest, open with my partner and be vulnerable and say, I have these moments, they just kind of hit me and I get this and I just need to come tell you that without you feeling like you're not doing something right or that I'm doing something wrong, I just need to say it and you just love me, I just need you to love me, that's all I need you to do, don't need to do anything else, you don't have to try to fix me, you don't have to go to sleep with me, I just need to be able to say it and be okay.
And you know, she looked at me and she said, I can do that, I can do that and you know, here's the crazy part about taking action here, here's the crazy part about taking action, this is a surrender, you know, we're big on surrender, surrender, surrender, surrender, the moment I did that, the moment I surrendered and went to her and said that, it has not been an issue and that's been 3, 4, 5, it's been a long time ago in dog years, it's been a long time ago. The moment we surrender, the moment we come to a spot, now this is what I believe for me, this is my experience, the moment I'm willing to surrender and be vulnerable and say, here it is, this is it, you know what, at that moment, that was an objective, that was evidence, it's like starting your fourth step, you know, how do I know I've done the third step, I started my fourth step, it became objective evidence that I was, that these things had become objectionable to me. And when they became objectionable to me, I was ready for God to have them. And I believe God took that on that day and I've been good ever since. That's just my experience. But there has to come a spot of surrender and all this, all this stuff we talk about that, you know, that we're so afraid, so afraid to talk about this. I don't care, man, woman, my experience is when we get down in here, it's the same. I also, I was going to say while I go, I'll manufacture resentments.
I'm a great manufacturer of resentments and they look something like this. I'm walking down the street and I'm going down the street and I'm in a hurry, I'm trying to get where I'm going, I'm probably late for court, so I'm on my way and I'm trudging along there. And as I'm going along, I see Steve. And Steven comes to me and he stops me for a second. He says, hey, Cliff, that's a nice tie. And then he takes off because he's busy too. And he stops me in my tracks and I think, nice tie. What the hell did he mean by that? And I'm thinking that Steven now has issued me a slight. I mean, he said nice tie, but what did he really mean about that? And I get to thinking, what do you mean about my tie? And so I spent the next three or four hours all of my head about what do you mean by that tie? And then I begin to think, well, what I should have said, what he said that was. And then immediately I began to plot Steven's death right there. I mean, I began to plot his death at that moment. And I mean, I've spent this for like a couple of days. I'm like, well, next time I see him, this is how it's going to go down. I'll brainstorm it, you know, I'll just get all into him. And then a couple of days later, here's Steven coming again. I see him and I'm ready. I'm poised and I'm ready. And he comes up to me and says, Clint, the other day you had that tie on.
And I know you always wear those nice ties. And my brother's birthday is coming up and he likes ties too. And I really like that one. I think he will too. Where did you get that? I want to get him one. And see, that's how it works for me. I'll waste time on stuff in my head. Didn't matter what fancy or real, right? Fancy or real. I create these things. I can create that in relationships. I can create that. My mind will just morph into these things that carry if I'm not God focused.
If I don't remember where my reliance is, rely, relying, reliance over and over and over must come from a higher power. And in dealing with sex and dealing with sex conduct, I have to be willing to surrender that. I have to be willing to surrender seven steps. All of me, good and bad. Why? I can't tell what's good and what's bad. The day I came to AA, if you would ask me, I would have said, this is a really bad day. Came to AA, it's a really bad day.
Came to AA, it's a really bad day, but it turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me. So that just tells me I'm no arbiter of good and bad.
[00:30:03]
Take it all, give it all, let God give back to me what he wants me to have. And the day I think I surrender these sex problems, when I really got down, was willing to be vulnerable and own it and say to Lori, look, this is the deal. This is what happens to me. Can you please be available to me? It's gone. It's gone. But that was the same way it was for my drinking. The day that I sat in front of Don and he told his story to me and I surrendered right then.
I mean, I pushed all my chips to the middle table, went all in on the Alcoholics Anonymous. The day that I've been, every time I've been willing to surrender, it's gone. I know that's not everybody's experience, but it's mine. It's my experience. So I was thinking about when he was talking and, you know, I, for the longest time, I thought that Cliff was going to cheat on me or going to have an affair or whatever.
And to my knowledge, he didn't do that. But I was always worried about that. And so after he got sober, he hadn't been sober very long, maybe a year, I don't really remember. And his sponsor had a young, sponsy, he was getting married. And they were going to go to Vegas for his bachelor party. And Cliff told me about it. He's like, hey, me and Don and a bunch of the guys are going to go to this bachelor party in Vegas.
And I really didn't think anything about it. He's going with the sponsor, the guys. I was like, OK. And a little bit after that, I don't know if it's like a week or two or a month, I don't really remember at this point. But I was talking to him about something and I was looking for something or needing something. And he said, oh, go look on my computer. I think it's in something. I don't remember. And now, listen, I've looked on his computer for a lot of things, a lot of times without his permission.
But this happened to be one time that he actually told me to go look on his computer. And so I did. And when I did, I moved the mouse and the screen came up. And it was this email from this girl. And the email said, I can't wait to see you in Vegas. I'm so excited you're coming. When you get here, let's go have lunch. I'll be really great to see you again. I have missed you. And I was livid, livid.
And for some reason, I did not say anything to him. And it was it was in the I was late afternoon, early evening. And instead, I didn't say anything, which is not like me. I will just tell you. I am one of those that I am a confronter. People I have. I have sponsors. I have friends that say I don't like confrontation. I love confrontation. I got no problem with it. It's never been an issue for me. And so for some reason, I did not say anything to him.
I waited until the next morning. And the next morning on my way to work, I called my sponsor with my hair on fire. And she said, OK, here. OK, here's what we're going to do. And I said, OK. And I've always listened to her. It's the one thing it is. The one thing that I've always done is I've always listened to her and followed her direction. She said, you're going to act as if you never saw that email, which I thought was insane.
I got to tell you, I thought she'd lost her mind. I mean, she knows me. She knows that I'm not going to be able to keep my mouth shut. And I was like, what? And she said, you're going to act as if you did not see the email. And I got to tell you, I did not know that I could do that. And I told her, I don't know that I can do that. She said, well, yeah, I think you can. You just need to pray about it.
Ask for God's help. You'll be fine. I thought she's lost it. And so it was on a Monday. I do remember that. It was on a Monday. And that night I was going to my home group. And I went to my home group at 530. And there was a guy there. And he actually, he was actually a counselor. But he was in Al-Anon for a long time. His name was Louie. And Louie, I think we were talking about the third step, or I think, or I'm not really sure.
But anyway, but Louie was sharing. And Louie was sharing about that weekend that he had made this roast. And he had spent all day Sunday cooking this roast. And they had this plan. The kids were coming over. And they were going to have this nice dinner with the family. And he'd been looking forward to it all weekend. And he'd been cooking this roast all day long. And it was getting near the end of the day, about the time that people were getting ready to show up for dinner.
And he had opened the cabinet door to get some spices out, to season the roast a little bit more, put the last finishing touches on the roast. And when he did, he lifted the glass lid of the crockpot. And he hit the glass, hit the corner of this cabinet door just right.
[00:35:05]
And the glass lid shattered and went all into the pot roast. And he said, you know, I just thought, well, God doesn't want us to have roast tonight for dinner. So we're just going to order a pizza and go on. And he was like, you know, I just had to let that go. And that's just, you know, it was God's plan. And so then they called on me. And, you know, I'm not, I haven't been in the program that long.
And I'm a maniac. And all I can think about is this stupid email. And I share about the email. And I said, you know, tell them what the email says and tell them what's going on. And I mean, I am just, I mean, I am on fire about this thing. And I can't say anything to him. My sponsor says I can't say anything. I've got to act as if I never saw the email and go on. And I am thinking, this is never going to work.
And I said that I guess I'm just going to have to give it to God and let go and leave it alone and, you know, ask for God's guidance. And I got through sharing. And as soon as I got through sharing, Louie said, I got some pot roast you could feed him. And everybody in the room cracked up. Everybody cracked up. And just like y'all are. And that made it okay. And I don't know why, but it made it okay.
And I didn't have to say anything to him. And I didn't have to worry about it. And I don't know why God used Louie to get that message to me, but he did. And I never said another word to Cliff. I never mentioned it to him. I never said anything. And about, I don't know, a week later, not that much, but a week later, Cliff came up to me and he said he was talking. I think he was on the phone or he's talking to someone.
I don't know. But he said something about not going to Vegas. And I said, why are you not going to Vegas? I thought you were going to the bachelor party. He goes, you know, work's gotten really busy and I really just don't have time to take off. And I've got court coming up and I just am not going to be able to go. And I was like, oh, and of course I was like a little bit relieved. And then he said, oh, and I need to call whoever this chick was.
I can't remember her name. He said, and let her know that I'm not coming because we're supposed to meet for lunch. We went to high school together or college together. And she was like my little sister. And I need to let her know that I'm not going to be there. And I, you know, and I never had to say where I was like, oh, that's really nice. Good for you. You know, I mean, and he had no idea the insanity and craziness that I'd put myself through for that whole thing.
So, you know, I was, you know, my most for the majority of the time until we got into programming and for a little bit afterwards, I was always worried that something was going to happen. You know, you know, I will just tell you, and I bet there's some ladies on here that will agree to me, agree with me. When he first started going to meetings and then he started asking me to go to these open AA meetings, I went, you know why?
Because I was pretty sure one of you women were going to want him and I needed to know who was in the room. We had, you know, I had to check it out, make sure. Now I know that that's not happening. I know today, but at the time, but first, you know, you're just paranoid about everything. I was anyway. I was just, you know, super on guard, going to watch out. I'm not getting my man. I've been through enough with him.
I finally got him where I wanted him. By God, I'm not turning him over to you now. I mean, there had been days I wanted to kill him. I had planned his death plenty of times, but by God, you're not going to get him. Anyway, so, so we had, we had, you know, we have had to get, we've, we've both been crazy. I mean, when he tells you about the story about coming home and I'm not here and he thinks I'm leaving him, I'm going to tell you that was an ongoing thing for years.
He was always asking me, are you going to leave me? You know, are you, are you going to leave me? I mean, for a long time, I mean, for no reason, again, it was just in his head. And one day I said to him, I mean, he'd been sober a number of years. I mean, I'm not talking like one or two years. I mean, a number of years. And he asked me that question again. Are you going to leave me? And, you know, and I thought about it and I said, you know what, Cliff?
I said, we got together and we were crazy and sick and you were doing drugs and you were drinking and we had knock down, drag out fights. And, you know, there was, you know, you were inappropriate with women and, you know, that now you got sober and you've been in a program and you're, you know, you're a great husband and you're doing, and you're, you know, you're, you're doing great work and you're helping others and we've got a really good life.
And you know what? You figured me out. This has been my plan the whole time. Now that it's good, I'm going to leave. You caught me. That has been the ultimate goal. It was a long con. I'm just telling you, we've been waiting until we've been married 15 years and now I'm leaving. That's it. This is the time. And where he gets those thoughts, you know, it's crazy.
[00:40:03]
But I mean, I've had similar thoughts myself. I mean, he talks about the guy in the tie. I will tell you, I have had similar things with him. You know, my head just goes nuts on me. I mean, we will be getting ready to go someplace and I'll have a shirt on and he'll go, are you going to wear that shirt? And he'll say that. And, and here's what happens in my head in 2.5 seconds. This is what runs through my head.
And it takes about that long. 2.5 seconds is what does he mean? I'm not going to wear the shirt. Does he not like the shirt? Does he think the shirt is ugly? He thinks this shirt is ugly on me. He doesn't think this is attractive. He doesn't think I'm attractive. He doesn't love me anymore. He's going to leave me. Oh my God, we're going to get a divorce. Oh my God, where is he going to live? Not where I'm going to live because I'm getting the house.
But that's what goes through my head in 2.5 seconds. Now, what he really means is, are you going to wear that shirt? Because if you're wearing that shirt, I'm changing my shirt because I'm not going to look. That's what he means. But that's not where my head goes. That's never where my head goes. So, you know, alcoholics are not the only ones that have this crazy mind. We have thought processes that come through us out of nowhere.
My sponsor says to me, you know, alcoholism is probably not going to come to you in a drink anymore. It's not going to become in a relapse with somebody anymore. It's going to come at you sideways. It's going to come out of the blue. It's going to come with a comment or something that you're not prepared for or something. It's not going to be anything direct because not only is alcohol cunning, baffling and powerful, it's really patient and it's still out to kill you and it's going to get you any way it can get you.
And she calls that spiritual warfare because when we're on guard for the alcohol, we know what to do about that. It's going to come at us in a different way, in a different form. And listen, it's come at us in several different ways. With our daughter, it did come direct. She's got a pill problem. She got sober. She didn't stay sober. She's still out there going and it came at it directly. My son is not an alcoholic, not an alcoholic at all.
Probably going to marry one. I promise you he's going to marry one. He loves to take care of people. He is a lot like his mama, but he's not an alcoholic. But I'm going to tell you, I've had to practice my program harder with him than I have with any of the alcoholics in my life because he is just like me. He knows it all. He's never wrong. He's the authority on everything and I have had to learn to be patient and not try to run his life anymore and let him make his mistakes and not take care of him.
Because for a long time, I thought he's not the alcoholic, so it's okay if I help him because he's not out drinking or using. But I was still enabling him. I was still not helping him. I was still doing damage to him. So I've had, you know, it doesn't come at me directly anymore. It comes at me in, are you going to wear that shirt? And I don't, and I spin for no reason. So there's some questions over here.
I think we're going to try to answer those because we've only got about 30 more minutes, I think. And so we're going to try to answer some of those. If we don't answer or we've missed your question or whatever, you can replay it again because there's been so many and there's been a lot of stuff in the chat. So if there's more that you want us to answer, just send it again and we'll try to get to it.
Where do you want to start? Do you have one? Yeah, I had it queued up there for you there. I just moved it. That would wait. While I'm finding this, I'm going to say one more thing I wanted to say about something else about today. So let me find this real quick. Somebody asked me, oh, here it is right here, baby. Okay. They asked right there. No, that's not it. No, no. It was a question was, I think if I remember right, the question was, Lori, do you ever have thoughts like Cliff had?
He's leaving me. I think that was the year. I thought you wanted to say something or answer that. Here it is. That's it right there. Go ahead. And I'll come back in. Do you have those same thoughts for that? He doesn't want you anymore or he's going to leave you? No, I don't. She's healthy. And I'll tell you why. Listen, and I've had those thoughts. I just got for telling you, I've had those thoughts and that I haven't had those in a long time.
And I'll tell you why. It's because he's a great husband. I mean, me or love me or he wants anything else.
[00:45:01]
I just don't and I really am to the point today, just today, that if that were the case I would be heartbroken and I would be crushed but I also know that I would be okay. Cliff used to tell, people used to ask Cliff about us and how I, you know, they would ask him questions about, you know, how do you know that, you know, Lori's going to stick around through all this or whatever, I don't know, stupid stuff, I don't know, but Cliff used to tell people, he'd say, you know how I know that Lori loves me?
And they'd say, how? And he'd say, because she doesn't need me for a damn thing and that is true. I mean I don't need him today, I want him. I really do still want him, I love him. I still don't want y'all to take him from me, but I don't need him today and I used to have to need him, I used to have to really need him, but I know that I don't rely on him. He is not my God today. He is not my higher power today.
I have a higher power that's going to take care of me and if something were to happen to Cliff, God forbid something were to happen with Cliff, I know I'd be okay. Would I be heartbroken? Would I be in pain? Absolutely. Would it crush me? Absolutely, but it's not going to kill me. I know I would be okay today. And he's such a good husband and he's so loving and he's so kind and he reinforces every day how much he loves me by his actions, not just by his words, but by the way he treats me, that I don't really think about him leaving.
I just don't. And I don't think you think about me leaving anymore either, do you? No, I don't. No, I don't. No, I don't. No, I don't. No, I don't. No, I don't. No, I don't. No, I don't. No, I don't. No, I don't. the way he treats me. I don't really think about him leaving. I just don't. And I don't think you think about me leaving anymore either, do you? No, since I put that chain on you. I really don't.
I want to say something. Do you have anything else? No. All right, I got a couple of questions I want to… But I want to say something else that I just want to touch on this. Our friend Kathy, who's coming up next, who I madly love her. About two months ago, I think it was the first one Yvonne had put on this. I came on. Laura and I came on to watch Kathy because we just love her so much. And we'd just been with her, not long, but for about earlier in the year.
And so we wanted to come on and see her. And she said something that day that has resonated with me since that day, and as it relates to me. And I'll say this as it relates to me and Alcoholics Anonymous. She said, so AA is not my whole life. But because of AA, my life is whole. And she said that about an hour on to her, and it resonated with me. And it reminds me, you know, going through all this and being with Laura and trying to find appropriate relationships with women.
And the women in Alcoholics Anonymous, Laura sponsors a gal that's also in AA, that has been my dear friend for however long she's been here. And she taught me how to have, she, by being a good model, she helped me learn how to have good healthy relationships with women, a friendship relationship with women. She taught me that. About three years ago, Lori conned me into joining this health club deal that I go more to than she does though.
But I go early in the morning, and I go there, and I go, and when I went, I said, this is a chick deal, no disrespect, but this is a chick deal I'm going to. And it pretty much is. I'm like one of two or three guys that go to this early morning class that we got. And it's all these younger women, and they're 30ish, some late 20s, early 30s. And I've just had this incredible relationship with them. And what's happened is, is that I've learned how to have healthy relationships with women.
And what's happened is, is that I've, and some of these, some of these young ladies have had difficulties, and they will reach out to me, and I would tell Lori about it. So she's in the loop, very important part of it. In the loop, like when I had a job problem, and I was just talking to her about some things that she could do. Some of them have gotten, are married, got pregnant, Lori and I have got to be a part of their baby's lives, and part of all that.
And I've learned how to have this healthy relationship with women, without any agenda, without any hidden idea, or hidden, you know, where we're going. And I've had this incredible time with them. And it's the only place in my world that I go, this is what's so funny about this. It's the only place in my world that I go, that nobody there knows that I'm in alcohol addiction. They have no idea. I'm over there just giving them AA every day.
They are clueless about it, you know. I'm just pounding the principles to them, they don't even know.
[00:50:03]
But I've got this incredible, I've made this, really both of us have, we've had this incredible experience with people, and so when we say, it's not my whole life, but it's made my life whole, is that it's enabled me to go out and function in the world, and have healthy relationships with women, and know what my boundaries are. Not necessarily what theirs are, but what mine are. What I need to stay watched for.
And I've found a way to be usefully, happily, whole in my environment. Somebody out here asked me about, do I go to Al-Anon. I went to Al-Anon for about six months, your kids will drive you to Al-Anon by the way. I went to Al-Anon for about six months, and this is, please when I say this, this is not a knock on Al-Anon, because I love and respect everything you all do. But one day I'm in Al-Anon, and the thought came to me, these are the same 12 steps.
And I took the steps that I had loved in Alcoholics Anonymous, and just like I did with Ed Weber, the problem of my life, I began to take the steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, and apply them to my daughter's alcoholism, which is probably just using them for Al-Anon tools. And I got free of that. And so I haven't been to Al-Anon in many, many years, but I love and respect, and anytime I go hear speakers, it's always the Al-Anons that bring me to my knees.
Because I get to hear what I was like. You know, I get to hear what it's like living with me. One of the things my sponsor did, had me do, when I was making amends, was at the end of the amends, I had to, when it was all done, when everything was set, I had to ask one more question, and that was this. Tell me what it was like to live with me, be my friend, work with me, in active alcoholism. And I had to listen to what it was like for them, to be with me, or be around me, be part of my life, watching me in active alcoholism.
And so I have a lot, a lot of respect for what Al-Anon does, and of course, I'm married to a real black belt, so I know what that's all about. But I haven't been in many years, but I love Al-Anons. What was the deal here? Can you talk more about tools, recommendations you use for your son, Laurie? I have a 17-year-old similar struggling, similarly with enabling, being patient. Thank you very much. Okay, so, listen, my son's a good kid.
He really is. I mean, he's a really, he's a good kid. I say kid. He's 28 years old. I was going to be a kid, though. And I have, and listen, I parented out of guilt for a long time. I mean, that's what you need to know, is that I parented out of guilt for a long time, because I divorced his dad. He was only four years old when I did that, and I was not a good mom. And when I tell you I was not a good mom, I wasn't.
I, you know, he heard all the fights and the screaming and everything. But more importantly, I was, I always tried to tell my son what he should do, and I tried to make decisions for him. I tried to influence every decision that he ever made. And what happened by me doing that is that he grew up thinking that he didn't know what decision to make for himself, and he grew up thinking that his decision-making wasn't correct.
And he felt that whatever decision he made wasn't good enough, and that, and I did all that to him. I caused all that, to the point that when he was 26 years old, he joined the Army, and he didn't tell me. I mean, he was in boot camp, and I found out. And he couldn't tell me because I wasn't safe enough to tell. And so, because I've been running his life his whole life, and he wrote me a letter and said, Mom, I'm sorry I didn't tell you I was joining the Army, but I just didn't want our last talk to be a fight.
Now, what you need to hear, this was only two, three years ago when this happened. And I had made amends to my son, and I thought, and we really did, have a pretty good relationship. But I think this was just a deeper amends that I needed to make with him, and I had no clue how much he was affected. And what happened was, he wrote me this letter, and he said, Mom, I joined the Army, and I didn't want our last talk to be a fight, and I just didn't want to see the look of disappointment on your face, and I hope you understand I had to do what I thought was right for me, and if you're disappointed in me, I understand, because sometimes I'm disappointed in myself.
And I mean, it was just, it was a heartbreaking, hard letter to have to read, because when I read that letter, what I realized is that I was not a safe person to tell his mom that he was joining the Army, and that he was scared to death to make a decision on his own, and he was, I always thought that I was going to be disappointed.
[00:55:03]
And the reality is, I was very proud of my son, and I want him to be able to make decisions for himself, and I want him to be self-supporting, and to be able to take care of himself and make decisions. But my actions had not shown that, and I had done a lot of damage, and so I was able to write him a letter back, and own all that, and say, you know, it's not your fault that you couldn't tell me you're joining the Army, because I have not allowed you the dignity of your own choices.
And so I, what I have to make, what I have to decide today is, is what I'm doing, helping him to become a mature, responsible adult, or am I hindering that? And if I am giving him money, or I am helping him out all the time, constantly, then I'm not helping him. Now, I will tell you, if he's doing everything that he can do, he's got a good, he's got a job today, and he's always had a job, that's the one thing about that kid, he's got a good work ethic, he's got a good job.
If he's doing everything that he can to help himself, and he gets in a bind every once in a while, and he needs help, and he calls me and asks for help, that's one thing. But for me to do it for him, and him not be able to make decisions on his own, or be able to not take care of himself, because he thinks mom's going to bail him out every time, I'm not helping him. Because one of these days, mom's not going to be around, and he's got to learn how to do it for himself.
I can't be his enabler in his life, and it has been hard. Listen, he moved in with us when he was 18, and he lived with us for about a year, year and a half, and I was so paranoid about him living there, that he would leave to go somewhere, and I would say, text me when you get there, and then when he'd get there, he'd text me, and I'd say, and I want you to text me when you're on your way home, and let me know what time you're coming home.
I mean, he was 18 years old, he was 19 years old, and finally, Cliff had to say to me, he was leaving one day, Colby was leaving to go somewhere one day, and I said, text me when you're leaving, and he looked at him, and he goes, no, don't, don't, and I was like, what? And he goes, you're not, he's a grown man now, he does not have to text you every time that he's leaving, and every time that he's coming home, because you're going to have to let him go, and you're going to have to let him figure it out, and be okay, and my son asked me, he goes, why would you want me to text you before I'm on my way home?
I said, well, because if you don't make it, then, you know, you could be off in a ditch. He goes, I'm sure somebody will tell you if I'm off in a ditch, mom, somebody's going to find you, and let you know, what are you going to do about it anyway, which is totally true. So I've had to, you know, it's been hard for me, it's been really hard for me, and, and he, and I, and so I, I do not do anything for him that he cannot, or should not be able to do for himself.
I have, I, you know, he, he pays his own rent, he gets his, he's able to have his own motorcycle, he, which is a whole other story. She winged him. But it took, it took a long time. It, it took what it took, and it took a lot of pain, and it took a, but, you know, now listen, he will call me every once in a while and say, mom, I, you know, the other day he called me, and he was like, my car's broke down on the side of the road, I don't have AAA, I got to tow it, I have no money.
So I Venmoed him 150 bucks to get his truck towed. But, but for the most part, he's on his own. And he knows that. And, and I've just, you know, and, because I'm not helping him when I'm bailing him out all the time. Even though he's not the alcoholic. Still not doing him any good. All right.