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About this recording
- Topic
- 2 Clif G. (AA) Lori G. (AFG) Oklahoma City, OK Finance, Romance & What did you s
- Speaker
- Clif G. and Lori G
- Date
- 2020-08-20
Transcript
Source: Clif G. and Lori G – 2 Clif G. (AA) Lori G. (AFG) Oklahoma City, OK Finance, Romance & What did you s – 2020-08-20.mp3 File: clif-g-and-lori-g-2-clif-g-aa-lori-g-afg-oklahoma-city-ok-finance-romance-and-what-did-you-s-2020-08-20.mp3 Duration: 01:06:44
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Yeah. Are there any questions? Are there any questions? Anybody else want to raise their hand or Jeanette, I didn't, did you see anything in the chat? Yeah, I think we're good. I wanted to say one other thing. Here's the other, here's the other thing that, um, about finances just really quickly. You know, I used to get mad at Cliff when he wasn't acting the way I thought he should act, and so what I would do is I would just go buy something to show him. Of course, I didn't know that I was paying all the bills at the time, and that was really just punishing me, but whatever, and then, but after he got sober, I would do that. I would go, and I get mad at him, so I just go buy something and put it on his credit card, because I was going to punish him that way. So that's the other thing that I used to do that I forgot to, to, to mention, um, is that I would just, you know, I'd use that as a way of punishment, or to show you, or whatever, um, so we had to work through that, too. I had to stop doing that, and, and look at that. So anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there. I forgot to say that. You're punishing me, are you? All right, there you go. Um, so, talk a little bit about, um, romance, relationships. Um, and so, this may meander a bit. This may, don't worry, this is going to go. We'll just see what God's got for everybody here today. So, but I, when we talk about relationships, and I, and you know, everybody's afraid to talk about sex, and we're going to talk about it today, because I think it's really important.
Sex, people get, you know, you've been to meetings, and they bring up the sex inventory, and everybody giggles, laughs, and nobody talks about the sex inventory. They talk about something else, but I'm going to talk about today a little bit, and talk about sex, because I think we don't talk enough about it, quite frankly. I know I think about it a lot, but I don't talk about it very much. So, um, we'll talk about it today, and for those of you who don't know, I'm not So, um, we'll talk about today, and just kind of talk about that in relationships, and, but, but the first thing I want to talk about is just relate what, how I viewed relationships, people, uh, friendships, all that in my life prior to coming to Alcoholics Anonymous. One of the great things that we have in, in recovery is the promise of the, in the 12th step, is the greatest promise we have, is about having this awakening, this spiritual awakening as the result of the steps, and once you become awake, what happens, I, my experience is, once I became awake, what happens, I begin to become aware, and I cannot go to God to seek change until I'm aware, and I, for me, awakeness and awareness takes time. I can be awake, I can be awake early on that the reality of my life that, my God, it is my, I am, I am an alcoholic. I think that's the first real awakening that alcoholics have when we get here. We have this awakening that, oh my God, stacked against all the evidence of my life, this is really me, and I think it's the biggest shock to all of us, every alcoholic, that, oh my God, I really am, you know, we may passively say out in our drinking days, oh, I'm an alcoholic, but not really, we don't really know what that means, or I didn't, certainly, so the biggest awakening I have is I'm an alcoholic, and then what happens is the longer I'm here, and the more willing I am to uncover, discover, and discard, the more awake I become, and the more I wake, I become, the more aware I become. It's, there are things in our relationship that Lori would, I'm trying to use the right word, scold would be a bad word, bring to my attention, how about that, and I couldn't hear her, and I couldn't hear her, I just, I couldn't hear her, and I'll talk about that a little bit, the point of all this is, is that at one month sober, there's no way I could know what I know today at 19 years, it's just, and all the time, you know, it's so funny, I love watching new people come into Alcoholics Anonymous that are six months sober, and start talking about the newcomer, I just don't understand why they can't get it, I don't understand why they don't understand, I'm thinking six months ago, you were on your mama's couch, my god, you know, you couldn't, but we lose perspective about all that, and then once we get here, that spiritual pride, we under,
[00:05:00]
you know, we begin to have compassion that we, something we've always had, but we've lost that because we, we don't have that relationship with this power to give us that, or at least for me, I mean, we would, for example, we would, there would be a news story about this tsunami in Indonesia killing a hundred thousand people, and Lori would say, god, this is horrible, it's so tragic, and I'm thinking, it doesn't impact me, it's sad, but I'm moving on, what's happened for me is the more, the more, the more deeper I've been willing to go, the more compassion I have, and I begin to relate, and then I begin to have that internally, and it's, you know, piece of that is just being so walled off spiritually, so blocked off from the power, but, so relationships, there's a real deal for me between expectations and reality, and this is my view of, the big book talks about selfishness, self-centered, this is the root of my problem, that is the root of my problem, it's, I'm, I'm a big, a big advocate of the holy trinity of every alcoholic, me, me, me, you know, and that's enough about me, what do you think about me, it's all that stuff, you know, I, but in relationships, what has happened for me prior to coming to Alcoholics Anonymous, and I don't know where this comes from, Larcene says, information floats through the universe, lands on my head, and I'll begin to take action on it, just as if it's the truth, and somewhere out there, I began to, I don't know if I watched too many Leave it to Bieber shows, too many Andy Griffith shows, I don't know what happened to me, but I began to get some ideas about what life looks like, what, what's this, what's this boy-girl deal supposed to look like, and I began to form some ideas about that, and what I began to do was, I believe this is what a relationship looks like, and so what would happen is, I begin to assign roles to people, now, I don't tell them I'm assigning them a role, and I don't tell them what that's supposed to look like, I just assume that you know, now, I don't know, but I assume you know, and so what happens is, is that I, I, she just, the cat's meowing, and so we start going out, but then what happens is, is that I have expectations, I believe, I have these old ideas of how this is supposed to look, and so we're out in public, and she doesn't hold my hand the way the idea says it's supposed to look, she doesn't do that exactly right, she doesn't compliment me the way I need to be complimented, she doesn't say the things that in my, the script says she's supposed to say, I've assigned these roles to people, and in assigning these roles to people, what happens for a guy like me, is I create unrealistic expectations about how this drama of life is to look, and by assigning people roles, and not sharing with them the details of their roles, and not sharing with them how that's supposed to look from my standpoint, what happens is, I'm always in collision, as the book talks about, but more importantly, I'm always disappointed, she didn't do it right, she didn't, you know, when I say this, she's supposed to say it this way, she didn't do that, you know, it doesn't, it didn't, it doesn't look right for me, and when I first read that in our book, I was like, I don't know, but the longer I'm here, and the more inventory I've done, and really, really looking at principles of my life, old ideas, because you know, we get here, we've got all these resentments, and we're mad at the world, it's all their fault, then come to find out it's all our fault, it's the big awakening, that's a big enough awakening, as it is, but the longer I'm here, what happens is, the play of six and seven become really important.
You know, in the book of alcoholic tsunamis, there's two paragraphs on step six or seven, when I looked at those, it was like looking at the free space on the bingo card, I mean, it's like two paragraphs, how big a deal can this be, and so Bill goes to great extent in the 12 and 12, we're writing about six and seven, and people thought, oh, this is great, this expounding on six and seven, and you know, six and seven of the 12, that was just Bill's perspective looking back, 12 years sober, looking back, just like me sitting here today, talking to you about this, it's my perspective backwards, I live life forward, I understand it backwards, and that's Bill understanding six and seven, I believe in the big book, six of those two paragraphs, tell me everything I need to know about six and seven,
[00:10:02]
what about these things in my life that I find objectionable, and I should find that out in four and five, I should be able to, you know, with the help of a sponsor, the person who hears my fifth step, find out what are these things that become objectionable, and I don't know that I've assigned roles to people, and it is sometime that I'm in alcoholic tsunamis before the light bulb comes on to me, that this is what I'm doing, I mean, I'm here nine, eight, nine years before I figure out that the real problem that I'm having in my life today is that I'm assigning roles to people, and I'm not really, I'm not really just letting people be who they are, and so what happens, I continue to have these failed relationships, and the 12, Bill talks about, you know, one of our real problems is defective human relationships, and my whole life, I've gone through life trying to stab before coming to alcoholic tsunamis, trying to stay, and some period while I was here, trying to establish relationships not based on reality, but on expectations, and we all know what expectations are, they're premeditated resentments, I'm setting myself up to once again be disappointed, because you all have once again not paid attention to what I need, but more importantly, what I want, or most importantly, what I demand, because that's the real truth, I have demands to be met, not wants, really demands of how this is supposed to look, and so, you know, defective human relationships, because I have these ideas, and I don't let you be just who you are, because I don't know how to do that, I don't have any, I don't have anybody to sit down and talk to me about, really about life, about relationships, and I, and I've got, you know, I've got really good parents, but you know, they just don't sit down and have these conversations with me, they just don't talk about stuff, and so, I've got to, I figure I just got to get this information on my own, and again, the only way I know to get that information is just either make it up, or just watch enough TV shows, and say, well, this is what it should look like, and Ozzie and Harriet, they were great, it was a great TV show, but it was just that, TV show, not reality, but I believe it to be real, I believe that's what those people, the thing that really impacted me in my young life, is when I was about 11, 10, 11, 12, somewhere in that area, I can't, when I was 11 years old, the first time I drank, and I think somewhere about 12 or so, my brother was a fireman, and a paramedic, and he worked for the fire department, and on the weekends, on Saturdays, I would go out and have lunch with them, and hang out with the firemen, when I was 12 years old, and just kind of hang out, well, what they would do is, that they, on one Saturday, when I was there, so this is 1972, somewhere in there, one of the firemen had been to Dallas, and he had gotten this eight millimeter projector, and he had these old, what we would have called then, these old eight millimeter porno tapes, porno reels, and so, at 12 years old, I'm exposed to pornography, and I'm going to tell you, if you're a 12 year old boy, getting exposed to pornography, right when all you're trying to figure all this out, that's not good, because it has caused me an innumerable amount of problems in my sex conduct, in my sex life, prior to coming to Alcoholics Anonymous, there's a lot of things to unlearn about all that, and so, I drag a lot of insecurity and so, I drag a lot of insecurities and a lot of ideas about relationships, sex conduct, into Alcoholics Anonymous, and just into my life, and I think one of the things, because I sponsor a lot of guys between say, 20s and their mid-30s, I get, I just happen to sponsor a lot of those guys, some of them I've sponsored since they were 20, 21 years old, they're now, you know, a man in their mid-30s now, and some of them I've sponsored for, since they were here, got here about 32, but one of the things that I seem to notice, is that, you know, I don't know if it's just me,
[00:15:05]
and I don't know about women because I can't speak for them, but a lot of men struggle with pornography. It's a big problem. We have a deal that I like to call AA's dirty little secret. It happens a lot in Alcoholics Anonymous, might happen in Al-Anon, I don't know, I don't know what they said over there, so I don't know, but it seems to happen a lot with the guys that I sponsor, the guys in my home group, and what will happen is they'll go to an AA meeting and they'll talk about the solution and they'll talk about alcohol and there'll be some newcomer there and they'll become enamored with him.
Now the guy I sponsor is either married or in a relationship and what happens is that cute girl comes up to him after the meeting and just fawns all over about how grateful they are, what they said, and this is how it usually happens, well, give me your cell phone number, you know, if you ever need anything, let me know, and here's mine, and it starts out innocently enough, I'm sure, although they probably have some defective relationship notions themselves, but what happens is they begin this inappropriate texting relationship, and before long, the guy that's got some time is sending text messages to the gal and then they begin to sext, you know, sending pictures or talking dirty to each other, and what happens is that they get a high in Alcoholics Anonymous, but they don't have to change the sobriety date.
You know, there's a high that comes from all that, you know, there's a high that comes from the chase, that engagement, that living on the edge kind of deal, that risque conduct, that risky behavior that we engaged in prior to coming to Alcoholics Anonymous, and they get this euphoria because of the chase, but they don't ever have to change their sobriety date, and that's a problem in Alcoholics Anonymous, it's been a problem for my guys, and we've talked about that, about in this idea of trying to grow in spiritual terms and trying to have an idea of where we're headed, you know, in the fourth step, it talks about that we are to come up with an idea or idea of sex conduct, and mine got really simple, I had to really simplify mine, and that is, you know, and I'm always happy to share it, my idea of sex conduct is I need to focus all my thoughts and sexual energy towards my wife, very simple, it doesn't need to be concocted out of some kind of really idea about sex, it needs to be God-directed towards my partner, but this idea of acting out in alcohol, the sex, I'm not sure it's any different today than it was in 1935, but I think the ability and the resources we have to communicate have changed, and the ability to disguise it and hide it has become even greater, and so we get into these complicated relationships, unintended complicated relationships, or perhaps intended complicated relationships in Alcoholics Anonymous, because we have these, we're broken, and we're broken people when we come here.
Dr. Silkworth talked about in the doctor's opinion, when he talked about alcoholism, and he described it very well, he talks about that we alcoholics have this spirituality, he described it as restless, irritable, discontent, and he said when alcoholics get to that, it triggers the obsession, because they seek the sense of ease and comfort, they remember, they recall that time when they drank and it gave them that, and he says after they succumb, so once the alcoholic reaches restless, irritable, discontent, the obsession kicks in, they're drinking, and he says they enter this senseless series of sprees, emerging ever remorseful with a firm resolution never to do that again, and he says this is to continue until that person has some kind of psychic change, and he says otherwise, it's a hopeless condition, but he talks about an entire psychic change, and so some people come to Alcoholics Anonymous and believe that if I quit, I'm just going to give God my drinking problem, giving God my drinking problem, I'm going to take care of the finance, the romance, everything else that's attendant to my life, I'm going to take care of that, and so what happens is that's why in our book over and over again, it says we think a man's unthinking
[00:20:03]
when he says sobriety's enough, just not drinking, just don't cut it in Alcoholics Anonymous, because what invariably happens, if I'm not willing to go deep into the entire psychic change, not just a psychic change that relates to drinking, but an entire psychic change about every area of my life, we're talking about a complete surrender, you know, we only talk about alcohol in the first step, that's the only step we talk in AA or Alamo, it's the only step we talk about alcohol in, everything else is directed towards me, I got to figure this riddle out to get to God, and so this idea of restless, irritable, discontentedness, and I know you all have seen it, I get sober, I give God my drinking problem, but I'm going to continue to figure out my romance problem, and it's a train wreck every time, or I'm going to figure out how to do my finances, and I'm in bankruptcy twice, I mean, I've got to be willing to have this entire change, and from that is a deep look in our inventories, I believe, or this is at least in my experience for me and the men that I've sponsored, is a deep look at what are these old ideas about relationships that really run my life, what are these old ideas about money that really run my life, what are these principles that I've grounded in, the agreements I've made with myself that this is how it is, that I've got to really look at if I really want to have a transformation, what are these things that I'm still willing to hang on to that block me off from God, and these old ideas get deep grounded, you know, it's easy to see that the top five or ten when we get here, and I'll give you some of mine, men don't cry, well, you go to your first AA meeting and you're trying, you're blubbering like a little baby and it's uncomfortable, or you watch people cry in AA and you're thinking, man, you just want to get up and leave the room because it's not comfortable, why is that, because I have a belief, my principle is men don't cry, I watch a man cry, it's uncomfortable, I can't handle that, I want to cry, I stuff it down because men don't cry, where does that come from, I'll give you something to cry about, that's what my dad used to tell me, don't cry, boy, I'll give you something to cry about, so men don't cry, it's an old idea, I bury it down there, so we can tick off probably some of the top, you know, old ideas about men don't cry, you have to do it on your own, right, pull it yourself, Clint Eastwood and John Wayne almost kill me watching those two people, you know, just pull it up by your bootstraps a little more and you go get it done, if I'm going to do something, it's going to be on my own, those old ideas get grounded in there, but they're underneath all those, underneath all those, there's some other old ideas or some other prejudices that drive my life, a big underlining, I'm afraid to be alone, afraid to be alone, that's a fear everybody has, I think, it's certainly one that I had, a lot of guys I sponsored, that's always on their list, I'm afraid of, when they list their fears out, I'm afraid of being alone, it underlies that fear of being alone, underlies so many of the other branches, and fear, you know, in our book talks about this evil and corroding thread, shot through the fabric of our life, it seems to cause more problems than stealing, ought to be classed that way, and it does, I'm afraid of everything, I'm afraid you're going to find out who I am, I'm afraid I'm going to be successful, afraid I'm not going to be successful, all these underlying old ideas based on fear, why?
It's a good thing the big book is an open book test, because it asks us the question, why do we have these fears? We ask ourselves, we list it on paper, and ask ourselves, why do we have these fears? And then it gives us the answer, isn't it that self-reliance has failed us? Once again, no reliance on God. Good ideas that I bring in, these things that I just talked about, being this idea of self-reliance, this idea of reality versus expectations and relationships, this idea about sex that I bring into my marriage, that I bring into Alcoholics Anonymous has got to be reformed, it doesn't happen overnight, you know.
One of the things I would always do is whenever Lori and I would go out to a restaurant, there's always a cute hostess, they always want to seat you, and they're so friendly, so I'm always so friendly back to them, you know. I'm always friendly to the hostesses when they want to seat you, and I'm always giving a hug, and Lori would say to me, don't be hugging the hostess. And I'd be like, oh, whatever.
[00:25:00]
She just, she needs to get a life, or whatever. And the waitresses. And them too. Well, really, any woman, really, I just, I love women, anyway, so, and I couldn't get it, because I have an old idea about that, I have an old idea about that. Underlying all that, if she leaves, I need to have, I don't want to be alone, I need to have a plan. If she leaves, I need to have a plan, and I need to always keep my options open.
I'm not doing anything, but I'm keeping my feelers out. I'm not acting on it, but I've got to know that I've got, I've got, I've got trot lines out. Some of y'all old fisher people got trot lines out. This goes on. I'd like to tell you, this went on for a couple of years, and one day I woke up, I'm talking about into like, eight, nine, ten years sobriety, I'm, I'm not getting it. When I was nine years sober, I came home one day, and Lori says, you've got to leave.
I go, leave, what, we going to have the house fumigated, what are we doing? She goes, I don't know you. She said, you know, we got a sober home. I, she didn't say we, I have a sober home. She's very clear about it. I have a sober home. That doesn't just mean physically sober. That means emotionally sober, spiritually sober, physically sober, and you're not sober. You are not sober. You might be physically sober, but you ain't the rest of your life.
And I didn't argue with her, packed a bag, called a guy that's in my home group that's 30 something years sober now. So Tom, he was 20 something years sober, moved into his spare bedroom in November or early December. And I began to, you know, have this deeper look at my life. And I think one of the things about relationships, defects of character, old ideas, in the big book and as it relates to step six, it says, you know, we've got to be willing to let these go.
But it specifically says that I have to find these things objectionable. Until I find them objectionable, I ain't ready to let them go. I don't, I don't care. For this alcoholic, until they begin to cause me significant pain or they begin to cause you significant pain and I'm at a spot in my life that I am awake enough and aware enough to see the pain I'm causing you and to give a shit, which is key.
I got to care. And once I become awake and aware, I begin to care. I begin to have compassion. Only then will that motivate me to change. You know, when was I willing to give up alcohol? When I had been beat into a state of reasonableness. Some of these defects don't require that kind of beating, but for some of them they do for me. Some of these, I have to be beat to the point where I'm, I needed an example and I'm the one I'm willing to become humble.
I'm willing to become humble and at nine, eight, nine years sober, I'm the alternate area chair. I'm chairing our state conference. I got asked to leave our house. That's a knee breaker. That's a gut checker. That's a where am I in this deal? Because I've got, you know, I can become so full of spiritual pride. I become so full, you know, the alcoholic ego, the resurrection ability, the powers of the alcoholic ego is unbelievable and it doesn't take much here.
You know, sobriety is like walking up and down escalator. If I'm trudging, I'm making progress up that escalator, you know, it's coming down. But if I'm trudging, walking with a purpose, I'm making it my way up that up escalator. But the moment I stop, the moment I think I'm going to take a break, down I go. And it's my experience in Alcoholics Anonymous that my recovery is like that. I have to continually be willing to trudge that.
I've got to be willing to do that. And it's particularly key in my relationship at home, in my relationship with other people that I have to be trudging this road to continue to become spiritually awake.
[00:30:02]
Because once you're awake and once you're aware, there's no unknowing it. There's no unknowing all that. And what happens is I begin to see the hurt in Lori's eye, I begin to connect the dots. Sometimes I'm, you know, really slow on that. I think I'm real smart, but sometimes I'm really slow on the uptake. There's a lot of smart people out at the graveyard. There's some people that aren't too bright, got good lives in Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, and I want to be too smart.
I want to outthink it. I want to outmove it. And the truth is, is that you can't, my thinking does not apply to spiritual matters. My head knowledge does not apply to a spiritual way of life. What I have to do is be willing to concede and surrender. And I had a, in that time period, what happened for me, I had this second surrender, deeper surrender. And I've had a couple of them here. I've had a couple of times where my behavior has not been appropriate with my wife.
And because I became awake and aware, I had to alter it. I had to change it. And, you know, what I try to do today is, today in my relationship, oh, Don, every time he would hang up the phone, every day when I called him, the last thing he would say to me before he got off the phone would be this, is there anything I can do for you today? Every time I talked to him. And he would always say, no, I love you.
No, I love you. And he said that to me every day of my life until he died five or six years ago. He told me that every day. Is there anything I can do for you today? And I need you to know how much I love you. Every day he said that to me. And what I've tried to do the best of my ability in my relationship with Lori is every day when we talk, and whether it's just here at the house, even when we're on the COVID lockdown, every day I've tried to tell her, ask her, is there anything I can do for you today?
And I need you to know how much I love you. Every day. Every day. When we talked about the 50-50, 100% deal, the key to all that is, is that if I really believe the spiritual principles of alcoholics, if I really believe that, what they're really asking me to do is to become a servant. It says that for all practical purposes in our book, when it talks about step nine, it says for our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us.
If I can keep that principle, that principle of service in the forefront of my mind, then every day what I'm doing is I need to get up and say, what can I do to make Lori's life better today? What can I do to go to work and make those people's lives better today? How do I go do, how do I go do that today? How do I, how do I go out and help God's kids today? Because if I help God's kids, he's going to be happy with me.
I like what my friend Scott says. You know, I know I'm, I know I'm God's favorite. He's got my picture on the refrigerator and yours is probably right underneath mine. And that's the beautiful part about recovery here. You know, we find how we can come here, get our lives, get new lives here, get reborn, learn about ourselves, learn about this walk with God, learn about our fellow man, learn how our, what our, my respective position is in life.
Know where I fit in here. You know that I'm shoulder to shoulder with you. No better, no worse. Same, same. And in this journey together that we have to somehow figure out how we maneuver this existence together of being service to each other. And by being a service to each other, what happens is my life improves. It's the craziest thing. My life gets better when I become more concerned about you than I am about me.
When I become more concerned about Lori than I do about my own life, the quality of my life improves. It's contradictory to everything I believe prior to coming to Alcoholics Anonymous. I believe the longer, the more I thought about me and the more I got, the more I did, I'd be happier. And what I've learned here is the more I do for Lori and the more I do for you and the more I do for God. The better my life is, the happier I am, the less shackled I am with me, with me.
And through that, what happens is these relationships that I have in my life, I begin to get perspective on them.
[00:35:01]
Because I understand I'm there to try to figure out how to help them, not what they can do for me. Don't you? OK. What time do we start, soon after? Quarter after. OK. And so Cliff talked about his preconceived ideas. And, you know, I think we all come in here with something. And when I came in here, when I met Cliff, here's what you need to know. You know, my parents divorced when I was seven years old.
And I told you, my parents aren't alcoholics. But my mom started going out every weekend after the divorce. And she went to clubs every single weekend. And she didn't go out to get drunk and she didn't go out to parties. She went out looking for him. And she was always looking for him. And my mom, from the time I was seven until I was 13, she was gone a lot. And she left me home for days at a time to go out to, like I said, to go look for a man.
She was looking for a replacement. And I knew that she was not OK. She needed a man. And I saw that growing up. And I didn't really understand what that was about. But I saw that. And she dated a lot of men. She would bring men home. It was just not a good time to be around. And it's not fun for a kid. But all that was going on. And so, you know, I believe that there's part of that that I unconsciously or unknowingly or whatever I obviously picked up on.
And I got married when I was 19. And the guy was 27. It was a huge mistake. People tried to tell me not to do it, that I didn't know what I was doing and that I wasn't old enough to make that decision. And I don't know what you were like when you were 19, but I knew everything. And I wasn't going to be told what to do. Anyway, I got married instantly. It was the biggest mistake of my life. And I was trying to get out of that marriage and trying to look good doing it.
And it was a problem. We stayed married. We had a little boy together and we stayed married for eight years and about seven years into it. I was miserable. I've been miserable the whole time. And I've been trying to make this marriage work. And it seemed like I was the only one trying to make it work. And I wanted out of that marriage. And I wanted it. You know, I wanted to be able to blame him for everything.
And that wasn't working for me. And I don't know where this comes from. But, you know, it's like those old ideas. I have these ideas in my head. The only reasons you can get a divorce. These are them, just if you're wondering. They have to beat you. And he did not beat me. So I couldn't divorce him for that. They have to cheat on you. And he didn't cheat on me. And so I couldn't divorce him for that.
And he wasn't an alcoholic, which if he had been, we might have made it. Who knows? But none of those things are coming up. And those are the only reasons you can get a divorce. And I don't know where that comes from. I mean, I don't know if it comes up from my upbringing or my morals that I was taught. I'm not really sure. But that's the only reason to get a divorce in my head at the time. And I went out of my marriage.
And so what happened was I was working at a bank in the city. And I lived out in the country about an hour away. And Cliff walked through the door at the bank. And he was the attorney for the bank. He was on my board of directors. He was on my loan approval committee. He had these bright blue eyes, which he still has. He had this dark hair, which he doesn't have anymore, but that's OK. And he has a beautiful smile.
And he was always dressed to the nines. And every time that he'd walk in the door at the bank, all the girls, and I'm not kidding about this. This is not an exaggeration. All the girls would flirt with him and bat their eyes and giggle. And all the guys would shake his hand and pat his back. And I would hide because I could not form. I was so nervous around him. I could not form a sentence. And that has not happened before since, by the way.
And one day, Cliff asked me to come down, bring a file down to his office. And he took me to lunch. And that was it. I mean, I started dating Cliff, and I left my husband. And I do not recommend that. But that's how it happened. That's the truth. And I lied about that for a lot of years. I didn't know it was lying because I always make it sound better than it is. So when somebody would ask me if I had been dating Cliff before I was divorced or whatever, I would say stuff like this.
I'd say, oh, we were separated long before I started seeing him. We were separated. I was in the kitchen, and he was in the garage. And that's a separation for me.
[00:40:00]
Or I'd say, oh, our marriage was over long before I started dating him, which actually was true, but my husband at the time just didn't know that our marriage was over. But that's what I say and do because that's just, again, I have to be right and I always have to look good. So anyway, I divorce. I start a relationship with Cliff before I'm ever divorced from my husband. And, again, don't recommend that.
Not proud of that. I hurt a lot of people and caused a lot of pain by that. There was a lot of damage done by that. But that's the truth. That's what happened. And so I've always – and, you know, before I married my husband, I dated a guy right up until the time that I met my first husband. And I've always had somebody waiting in the wings. I've always had a backup plan. I've always had to have a guy.
I've always not been comfortable in my own skin. And so I've always had to have somebody else. That's just the way it's been since I can remember. And so, you know, that's what I brought to this marriage. And, you know, I didn't know anything. Again, my dad was as old as everybody else's grandfathers. We didn't talk about sex in our house. We didn't talk about stuff like that. And the things that I learned, I learned.
I had two older sisters that are 10 and 11 years older than me. And they would try to talk to me about it, but half the time I didn't want to talk to them about it. I learned everything that I know about sex, you know, through either my sisters or my friends. And there was like – there's not a lot of communication going on about it with either one. That's the truth. And so I was opposite of Cliff, exact opposite of Cliff.
I knew nothing about relationships or sex or anything like that. And so I tell this story. I've only told it once, and it was at our sex workshop, and it's embarrassing, but I'm going to tell it again. So the first time that I slept with Cliff, I said to him, look, I've only slept with one other guy. I was 19 when I got married. I was a virgin until then. And so the first time that I slept with him, I said, look, I've only slept with one other guy.
And he was like, oh, okay. And after we had sex, he goes, oh, my God, you're not kidding about that. So that should tell you about what I knew about sex. So just to give you an idea. And so everything that I know about sex today, really, Cliff has taught me. Whether it's healthy or unhealthy, we're not going to go there. But that's how I learned, honestly. I mean, I just didn't know that much about it.
And I had always tried to be a good girl my whole life. I was the one. My brother died of this disease a little over a year ago. He was a drunk pretty much his whole life. Almost two years ago. Almost two years ago. And he's been a drunk. He was a drunk his whole life. I mean, pretty much. He started drinking, I think, at age 15 or 16. And he was six years older than me and he died a year and a half ago.
And he drank himself to death. And I have an older sister that has always drank and has always done a drug or smoked something. I mean, from the time that I can remember, she's either smoked pot or taken pills or drank. And she always has pretty much drank no matter what else she was doing. And she doesn't think she has a problem and she doesn't think she's an alcoholic. And I don't, I don't know if she is or not.
I really don't know, but she gives a good impression of one is what I always say. And my other sister would drink and she would, my other sister would drink, but she would just drink occasionally. But it seems like that she would drink a lot of times and she'd get in trouble or she would have problems. And, and she, and she just, it seemed like to me that. That's why I think I never drank or did anything because I was always going to be the good girl. And so I've always tried to, you know, follow the rules. I've always tried to do the right thing.
Now I was manipulating and controlling and I, whenever I did something wrong, I would never admit it and I would always make excuses for it or rationalize it. I mean, I'm just, I mean, all that was all there, the control and all that was all there, but I really did try to be a good girl. And for the most part, I pretty much was, I was good at, you know, I did. I thought I did everything that I was told to do. I follow the rules.
And, but I, I can tell you I was in this marriage and I was trying to follow the rules and it wasn't working for me and it just, I was miserable. And so when I got out of it and I met Cliff, I always say this, he was kind of my rebellious period. And, um, cause I kind of got sick of being the good girl. I was just done with, you know, I kind of got sick of being the good girl. I was just done with, you know, it had not worked for me.
And so I didn't really care. I didn't have a, I never had good self-esteem my whole life,
[00:45:00]
but I really didn't have great self-esteem when I met him. And so I'm going to tell you, when I met Cliff and started seeing him, the plan was not to stay with him. He was not going to be a long-term plan. This was a gateway for me to get out of my marriage, have some fun, and then I was going to pull myself together. I kind of was what my thought was. I mean, as much thought as I put into it, which was not much, that's the truth.
So Cliff, Cliff is, you know, as he talked about, he was into pornography. And I had never watched anything like that. I don't even think I'd ever seen, I barely had seen very many R-rated movies. I mean, I just didn't know anything about that. And so he was, he started watching porn and was wanting me to watch porn with him. And, you know, this is just me. I think if you've seen one, you've seen them all, but whatever.
And so we'd watch these every once in a while. And he watched them a lot, but I, you know, and I'd watch them, you know, and at first it was kind of fun and, you know, I learned some things and it was fine. But then it got to a point where that's not what I wanted in my relationship. And I found out, I figured out at this point that I'm actually in love with this guy, which was news to me. And I just didn't want that in my relationship.
That's not what I wanted. Because, you know, deep down, I'm still a good girl and I still have these morals and values. And, you know, the wild time is now over and we need to settle down. And he wasn't wanting to settle down. He wanted to keep having, you know, these, keep watching these movies and everything. And at first, I gotta be honest with you, at first it was not a big deal, but then it became a big deal.
And I'm gonna tell you what happened for somebody like me, is that I felt like I was supposed to perform and measure up to these girls on screen. And now this is somehow, he thinks that this fantasy, which is all this is on these movies, is now supposed to be a reality. And I'm like, I'm out. I just, it was not, I couldn't reconcile it. And I was done. And, you know, we started having a lot of problems with it.
And, you know, by this time we had gotten engaged and he wanted to get married and he wanted me to set a date. And I just told him, I said, I'm not gonna marry you as long as you have these, as long as you have these videos. And when I tell you that there's a problem, I say that he has a problem with pornography. Let me just kind of give you the extent. We, you know, back then you didn't, we didn't have DVDs and we just didn't order it online or on cable.
We didn't have it. You had to actually call and order the VHS videos, right? So one day he's calling to order and- You shouldn't be drunk when you're doing this. He's placing an order and all of a sudden the person on the other end who's taking the order goes, do you have a video store or something? And he's like, no, can I get? And so he goes on with his order. And so finally, when I said, I'm not, I'm not doing this, you know, I'm not gonna marry you.
If this is gonna be part of our relationship, I'm not gonna have it. He was not happy about it, but he finally said, you're right, okay, we're gonna, well, I'll do it. I'll get rid of it. And so one day we are going to his hometown, which is about three hours away to visit his family. And we decide that we're gonna pack up all the videos and throw them out along the way, which was actually his idea because he said, if I throw them out around here, I will go back and dig them out of the trash.
So he thought on the way, we'll just dump them off in a dumpster, which was a great idea and it actually was. But just to tell you the extent, we had three or four banker boxes full of videos. Some trucker made out like a bandit, I'm sure, when they went to throw away their trash for lunch, but tossed all these videos. And you know what? I thought that was gonna be it, but it's kind of like pouring out alcohol, I think.
And, you know, we didn't have any videos in the house anymore, but then it became easier to get on the internet. And we had some, you know, he had some struggles there. Now I'm gonna tell you, I think it just took a little time to get over it. It wasn't like a huge deal. After the videos were gone, it wasn't a huge problem for a long, for after he got sober. And we had a few little incidences, but not much, but there was always that.
And so I, you know, I would try to explain to him how, you know, that how it made me feel and that I didn't like it. And he really didn't get it for a while.
[00:50:01]
And I will tell you now that I've heard him say to sponsees on the phone or at workshops or whatever that, you know, he didn't feel like he was cheating on his wife because, you know, it was just a video, it was just a screen, it was just a whatever. And now he says, absolutely was cheating because he was giving his attention to somebody else, his sexual energy to somebody else and his focus to somebody else.
And, you know, we had to work all that out. We had to figure all that out. I had to feel, you know, what was, you know, what our relationship was gonna be and how that was gonna look. And, you know, we can be intimate with having sex and I don't think either one of us really knew how to do that for a long, long time. And, you know, we thought one went with the other and it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily have to.
Now, I'm just gonna tell you, he's still the same fun guy. I will tell you, last week I had to have surgery. And when I woke up from surgery, Cliff was in the room and I woke up and he goes, hey, how are you feeling? And I was like, I'm good. And he was like, oh, the doctor came in and talked to me and said you did good and you gotta lay here for four hours and blah, blah, blah, blah. And you have some things that you can't do.
And he goes, we can't have sex for 10 days. I go, well, what else did she say? He goes, oh, there's a list. And that's what I heard was we can't have sex for 10 days, which is typical of him. And so, and then what the really funny part was is that as we were getting discharged that night, the nurse was going over everything. And I said, okay, can you tell me what I'm not allowed to do for the next two weeks?
Because all Cliff heard was, or for the next 10 days, because all Cliff heard was that we can't have sex for 10 days. And she starts going through, she goes, actually, you can't have sex for two weeks. And he was like, okay, you used to be my friend, Ms. Nurse. And so, we've had to work all that out. We've had to figure out what that is. We've had to figure out how to talk about sex. I'm gonna tell you, it is still an uncomfortable topic for me.
This is the strange part. Not uncomfortable talking to you and to a hundred strangers in a room, but have problem talking to my husband about it sometimes. Still to this day. Now, it's gotten better, and I do, but it's just, I think because I didn't grow up talking about it, and it was such this taboo subject that I have a hard time talking about it. And we had about, I don't know how long ago it's been.
It's been about eight months ago, a year maybe. I don't know. Let's tell the story. He was talking to me, and he said, and he said, I just feel like we're not connected. And he always thinks it's him. He always goes back to, it's always him. Have I done something wrong? Do you not like having sex with me? And I was like, no, where is this coming from? What are you talking to me about? And he said, you know, he said, you just don't really touch me anymore.
We have sex, but you don't really put your hands on me, and I didn't even know I wasn't doing that. And I had to look at that. And what I realized was that I'm telling you, the pornography probably screwed me up more than I realized, because what I realized was I was so scared to do anything too crazy or too out of there, because I was afraid the next thing he's gonna want is to hang from the chandeliers.
And so I had to look at that, and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm not even being attentive when I'm being intimate with him, when I'm being sexual with him, and I didn't even know I wasn't doing that. And he's like, and he's thinking, I don't like having sex with him. I love having sex with him. I've always loved having sex with him. When we first got together, now listen, it has calmed down. I'm gonna turn this video off for just for a second.
We'll be right back. Now listen, it is not like it used to be. I mean, I'm gonna tell you, when we first got together, I mean, we were going at it like rabbits. We have slowed down, let me just say that. We have had to slow down. But you know, I still, we do have a good sex life, and I do love being with him, but I would never have even been aware of it, and I wouldn't have figured out what was really going on there.
And so, you know, it's just, we come from two totally different backgrounds, and we've had to figure that out. But listen, there's part of me, I swear, we're exact opposites. Sometimes I swear he's the woman and I'm the man. He loves to cuddle and snuggle and put his, you know, and he loves to do that, and I don't.
[00:55:01]
I do a little, but I'm not, I mean, I like it for about two or three minutes, and then I'm like, you're sweaty, and I'm hot, and can we, I mean, I just, you know, it's horrible, I know, but it's true. I mean, it's just, and so, you know, I have to think about that sometimes, because sometimes I give a message that is not meant to be, you know. He thinks I don't want to be around him or don't love him, and that's absolutely the furthest thing from the truth.
And he talked about how he used to think, are you going to leave me? And that was an ongoing thing for a long time. I will just tell you, he was scared to death that I was going to leave him. And I could not get that, because, you know, we had been through, and I said this to him, I was like, okay, let me get this straight. We have been through you not working for three years to you getting sober and me getting into Al-Anon, and we've gone through all the drugs and alcohol.
We have fought like cats and dogs for years, and now we get along. We actually do recovery together, we spend time together, we love each other. We're pretty good in all of our areas, and actually we have a good time and we like each other, and you figured me out, the long-term plan is now I'm going to leave. I went through all that, it was a long con, and now's the time, I'm leaving now. That's the plan all along, that's genius.
I mean, it just didn't make sense to me. And like five years ago, this is no joke, five years ago, I think it was, four, three, I don't know, about four years ago or something, we were getting ready to go to Arizona to speak at a conference. He went and got up and went and worked out that morning while I finished packing and getting ready, and I had to run to the bank. I had my phone on the charger while I was getting ready and stuff, and I remembered, oh my gosh, I gotta go to the bank before we leave, and so I just, and our bank is literally three minutes at the street from us, and so I just jumped in my car and I ran to the bank, and Cliff apparently had called and I didn't answer, and then he texted and I didn't answer because my phone was on the charger, and he came in the door and I wasn't here, and he said, oh my God, she's left me.
Now, we're getting ready to walk out to go to a conference to speak at, nothing has happened, we haven't had a fight, we're not arguing, everything has been great, there's no issues, but by God, I had left him that morning, and I come in the door and he looks at me and he goes, where have you been? And I go, I went to the bank. He goes, I swear I came in, thought you'd left me, and I'm like, what? I mean, it's just the alcoholic mind, I swear, I don't get it anyway.
The keen alcoholic mind. That they only talk about in AA. Only. And so, anyway, so you know, those are things that we've had to work through and had to struggle. I think he now knows I'm not going anywhere. I mean, we've been married 21 years. We've been together 26. We have been through everything. I mean, I've invested way too much time, Natalie, trust me on this one. I mean, there's no way I'm starting over with somebody else, it is never happening.
It's not gonna happen. If he died tomorrow, I'm not gonna do it. I can't, I got way too much time invested in this one. But we've had to figure all that out and we've had to learn to talk about that. And you know, and I'm gonna tell you, you know, because I get texts and calls from people who wanna talk to me about how did I get over the pornography thing? And it's a huge issue right now. It's prevalent.
And not just in young guys and girls that are 20 and 30, it happens up to 40s and 50s, it's still happening. And you know, I think it goes back to being spiritually fit. I think that as long, when your connection with your higher power is stronger and closer, I think all that other stuff is not as important. And you know, I've told you about, I've always had to have somebody in the wings. When I worked, before I worked for Cliff, when I was working, when I had that good job, I was in sales.
And I'm just gonna tell you, if you're a young girl in sales, because I was younger then, when you're a young girl in sales, and especially where I was, I was actually the first person in my area, in my market, what I did, sold what I was selling then. And you know, And, you know, flirting with other guys, and, you know, it's just part of the game. It just is, and I've always been able to handle that, and I've never had an issue with that.
[01:00:02]
But there's always been a thought in the back of my head of, well, if something doesn't work out, you know, I've got some choices out here. I mean, there's always, you know, it's just, I always had to have a backup plan. And, you know, and I thought I had that mindset for a long, long time. But I got to tell you, I am, I have not even, I don't even think like that in any way, shape, or form today. I mean, not even at all, to the point that two and a half years ago, this is kind of embarrassing, but it's true, two and a half years ago, I went to the car wash.
Now, listen, I'm a freak about my cars. I go to the car wash all the time. I mean, I go like two, sometimes two or three times a week in the summer, and I was at the car wash. And on the weekends, I don't wear my jewelry a lot because I'm doing stuff around the house, and I'm going, and I never even think about it. And I'm sitting outside the car wash waiting for my car to get done, and this guy comes out and sits down to me, and he sits down, and he starts asking me questions, and he has this accent, so I know he's not from here.
He's like got this foreign accent, and he sounds kind of British or something. So he's asking me, you know, hey, do you live around here, and I go, yeah, and then he starts asking me about places to eat, and I was like, do you not live here, and he's like, no, I'm here for business, but I'm here a lot, and I'm getting ready to move here, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's just going on, and I'm just having a friendly conversation with him.
And then he says, can I ask you something, and I said, sure, he goes, would you like to go out sometime, or something like that, or do you have, boy, I don't remember what he said. All I know is I freaked out. I said, oh, no, I'm married, I've been married for 18 years, as a matter of fact, we just got remarried in the church, and I've been with him for 25 years, and oh, my car's ready, got to go. I mean, I'm not kidding, that's about how it came out of my mouth, and I'm sure he was thinking, oh, my God, dodged a bullet there, because I freaked, I am not kidding you, I freaked out, because I have not had that mindset in so long, and nobody's, I haven't, nobody, I haven't even noticed anybody ever even noticing me in so long, that I, I'm not kidding you, it scared me to death, I could not get out of that car wash fast enough, and since then, by the way, I wear my wedding ring every single time I go to the car wash, because I freaked me out, I'm not kidding you, but that's how different my mind is today, I'm not looking around to see who's cute, or to see who's paying attention to me, I don't even care, because the only person that I really care about looking at me is him, and we have a really good relationship today, it takes a lot of work, it takes a lot of time, it takes, you know, it's not just going to happen, but I will tell you, I think the main reason why we have such a great relationship is because of the traditions that we apply in our, in our relationships, and in our lives, you know, we have unity today, he gets a say today, I consider him today, and he's right, he asks me every single day, every single day, is there something that I can do for you today, and he tells me all the time, not just once a day, several times a day, how much he loves me, how, how he still thinks I am, how much I still do it for him, and, and, and you know, that, that's, you know, that's what you want is to be not, not needed, but wanted. And, you know, and I want Cliff today, and he wants me today. And he used to say this thing to guys, it's hilarious, actually, as he had two things that he used to say, and, you know, guys are guys. And so, and I don't mean to plain all of you with a broad stroke, I don't know, I don't mean that, but we would be, we'd be in a, you know, meeting, and the guys was always teasing Cliff, and they'd say something, you know, he, we'd be smarting off to each other or something. And, and one of the guys would say something like, hey, Lori, or, hey, Cliff, if you ever get sick of Lori, you know, let, let me know, I'll take her off your hands. And he would say something like, well, if you can take over payments, you can, or something like that, you know, that was a big joke. And then, but here's the other thing that he used to say, he'd tell, he tells guys, he goes, you know how I know Lori loves me?
And they'd say, how? And he'd say, she doesn't need me for anything. And that's true. I don't need him today. I don't need him for my emotional security. I don't have to have a man today. I don't have to have him financially, I can, you know, I don't need him for anything, but I want him. And I love him. And I love being with him. And I love, I mean, he really is my best friend. We really do have do everything together. And we have a lot of fun. I'm going to tell you, when he wanted me to quit my job, and come down and work for him, I thought, bad idea. And we're going to be around each other 24 seven, this is going to kill us. And I told him,
[01:05:05]
I was like, I don't know about that. And he was like, no, I think it will be good. And I said, okay, let me just say this, if this starts interfering with our marriage, I'm out. I'm gonna I can't, I'm not gonna do this. This is I'm not gonna do it. And I'm gonna tell you, it's worked out great. Because what's happened is, you know, he's, he's doing his work, he's with clients or in court, or whatever, in his office on the phone, and I'm usually in my office.
So it really hasn't been a big deal. And, but I got to tell you, I thought that was going to be the death of us. And it's not. And we, you know, we, we laugh and joke. And we, we have a lot of fun together. We really do. We when this COVID thing hit, and we were going to be around each other 24 seven, that was like no big deal for us. I mean, that was, we've had fun, we've, we've liked being around each other. And I know that that's not everybody's case. I mean, but if I'm going to be locked in with somebody, I'd like to be locked in with him, my best friend. And, and we do, we, you know, we consider each other today, we love each other today. And I think that also comes because we're both comfortable in our own skin today. And I think all that comes from having a God of our understanding, who we have a good relationship with. Because if I don't have a good relationship with God, I'm not going to have a good relationship with God. I'm not going to have a good relationship with anybody else out here. That's just, that's just been my experience. If I don't have that relationship with my higher power, this, all these other relationships out here seem to, to, to get really shaky really quick. So, um, I think that's all we've got for right now. We can take a break.