Listen to Audio Recording

[00:00:00.080 – 00:00:00.800] To the cloud now. [00:00:00.800 – 00:00:03.320] Good evening, everyone. [00:00:03.320 – 00:00:04.960] My name is David, and I'm an alcoholic. [00:00:04.960 – 00:00:07.350] Uh, you're all very welcome to- Hi, David. [00:00:07.350 – 00:00:07.510] Hi, David … [00:00:07.510 – 00:00:08.560] thank you very much. [00:00:08.560 – 00:00:09.440] Thank you, everyone.

[00:00:09.440 – 00:00:11.300] You're very kind. [00:00:11.300 – 00:00:16.080] You're all very welcome to this reading book meeting on Zoom, hosted by the Growing and Understanding A Group. [00:00:16.080 – 00:00:21.160] And we're on chapter 20 of, uh, Writing the Big Book: The Creation of A.A., written by Bill S.. [00:00:21.160 – 00:00:25.840] We got Hank P. is the title of this, Managing E. and Two E.. [00:00:25.840 – 00:00:32.940] And we're g- it's gonna be read by Azell for us today, Azell M, uh, Madden, and the footnotes are gonna be done by Riley K. [00:00:32.940 – 00:00:33.940] out of Oregon. [00:00:33.940 – 00:00:36.060] And where are you, Azell, at the moment?

[00:00:36.060 – 00:00:37.160] In Ar- where are you? [00:00:37.160 – 00:00:37.500] Atlanta? [00:00:37.500 – 00:00:38.740] I'm in Atlanta. [00:00:38.740 – 00:00:38.920] Atlanta. [00:00:38.920 – 00:00:41.460] I know, it's ha- it's hard to keep up with me. [00:00:41.460 – 00:00:42.600] Hard to keep up with you. [00:00:42.600 – 00:00:43.760] Via, via Chicago.

[00:00:43.760 – 00:00:52.600] Now the audio of these meetings is being recorded and can be found on recoverytapers.com, um, beg your pardon, recoveryspeakers.com, and Mike K. put them up for us. [00:00:52.600 – 00:00:53.840] Um, it's under the… [00:00:53.840 – 00:00:57.340] You can go in there, you can just put in Writing the Big Book, and you should get it there. [00:00:57.340 – 00:01:00.760] And before we go any forward, I just wanna mention our lovely Carol L. [00:01:00.760 – 00:01:03.200] is celebrating 34 years. [00:01:03.200 – 00:01:06.160] Carol, 34 years, am I right? [00:01:06.160 – 00:01:09.000] You wanna unmute and say hello, Carol?

[00:01:09.000 – 00:01:10.500] Lovely to have you here. [00:01:10.500 – 00:01:11.350] Lovely to see you. [00:01:11.350 – 00:01:12.340] Congratulations, Carol. [00:01:12.340 – 00:01:13.990] Congrat- well done, everyone. [00:01:13.990 – 00:01:14.520] Congratulations. [00:01:14.520 – 00:01:15.480] Yay. [00:01:15.480 – 00:01:17.200] Awesome, Carol.

[00:01:17.200 – 00:01:18.760] Congratulations, Carol. [00:01:18.760 – 00:01:19.310] Aww. [00:01:19.310 – 00:01:20.120] Congratulations. [00:01:20.120 – 00:01:21.840] What a lovely member of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:01:21.840 – 00:01:23.190] Congratulations, Carol. [00:01:23.190 – 00:01:23.860] Thank you. [00:01:23.860 – 00:01:24.640] I love all of you.

[00:01:24.640 – 00:01:30.460] Last, this past Sunday was 34 years, and la- the week before was that in Al-Anon too. [00:01:30.460 – 00:01:35.220] Thank you all for helping me stay sober and learn more about- That's great … [00:01:35.220 – 00:01:35.720] fellowship. [00:01:35.720 – 00:01:35.960] Thank you. [00:01:35.960 – 00:01:36.900] Thank you, Carol. [00:01:36.900 – 00:01:39.590] And tradition five- Congratulations, Carol … [00:01:39.590 – 00:01:40.250] thank you, everyone.

[00:01:40.250 – 00:01:42.250] Tradition five of the long form states, "Each A.A. [00:01:42.250 – 00:01:52.310] group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose, and that of course is carrying its message to the, those alcoholics who are still suffering." So with that in mind, the main purpose of these reading book meetings is [00:01:52.310 – 00:01:55.510] to improve our understanding of The Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, the A.A. [00:01:55.510 – 00:02:01.220] message contained in the book titled Alcoholics Anonymous, and of course, the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:02:01.220 – 00:02:05.960] Um, we have a guest reader every week, and as I said, we have Azell here today. [00:02:05.960 – 00:02:11.900] I'm go- gonna put up on the screen share for us, if you'd like to join in to, um… [00:02:11.900 – 00:02:14.200] Jim, I know I haven't forgotten you yet this week.

[00:02:14.200 – 00:02:20.049] We're gonna put a Serenity's Prayer version of, um, this version of the Serenity's Prayer. [00:02:20.049 – 00:02:21.420] If you'd like to unmute, thank you very much. [00:02:21.420 – 00:02:22.370] Mm-hmm. [00:02:22.370 – 00:02:24.870] And we'd say this collectively. [00:02:24.870 – 00:02:25.140] Thanks. [00:02:25.140 – 00:02:27.520] Oh, God- God … [00:02:27.520 – 00:02:29.160] please help me- Please help me …

[00:02:29.160 – 00:02:30.860] to set aside- Set aside everything … [00:02:30.860 – 00:02:32.900] everything I think I know- Everything I know … [00:02:32.900 – 00:02:34.570] for an open mind- For an open mind … [00:02:34.570 – 00:02:36.860] and a new experience … [00:02:36.860 – 00:02:36.910] and a new experience. [00:02:36.910 – 00:02:36.911] Experience. [00:02:36.911 – 00:02:37.400] Amen.

[00:02:37.400 – 00:02:38.060] Amen. [00:02:38.060 – 00:02:39.460] Thank you, everyone. [00:02:39.460 – 00:02:49.560] And we just have a few moments to gather our thoughts, reflect on why we're here, and obviously think of those who have yet to find a solution, are still drinking believing alcohol is the solution, and their family [00:02:49.560 – 00:02:49.900] members. [00:02:49.900 – 00:02:52.480] Thank you. [00:02:52.480 – 00:02:59.340] Thank you, everyone. [00:02:59.340 – 00:03:09.560] Now, I will be putting up the Kindle edition just to let people know if you haven't got the big, uh, the Writing the Big Book yet, if you haven't purchased it or got it yet, um, we'll put that up on Kindle.

[00:03:09.560 – 00:03:11.380] But we will be following along with Azell. [00:03:11.380 – 00:03:13.620] Uh, so Azell, we'll be following you. [00:03:13.620 – 00:03:17.480] Jim W., do you quickly just wanna tell us what's gonna happen at the end of this, uh, reading? [00:03:17.480 – 00:03:18.040] Thank you, Jim. [00:03:18.040 – 00:03:18.940] Yeah. [00:03:18.940 – 00:03:19.660] My name's Jim. [00:03:19.660 – 00:03:28.880] I'm an alcoholic, and I'll be back later for the, uh, Q&A session of this, uh, Big Book, uh, Writing the Big Book, uh, session.

[00:03:28.880 – 00:03:38.880] And it's just the Q&A just about what we're gonna be reading today, and what's, uh, what's in this book, and mainly what we're gonna be reading [00:03:38.880 – 00:03:39.120] today. [00:03:39.120 – 00:03:41.180] It's not for general discussion. [00:03:41.180 – 00:03:44.400] We can have that at a meeting after the meeting after the meeting. [00:03:44.400 – 00:03:48.380] But, uh, so if you have a question about what we're reading, please write it down. [00:03:48.380 – 00:03:54.400] You can send it to me or, uh, just write it down, and then we'll call on you at the end. [00:03:54.400 – 00:03:56.200] Thank you, Jim W..

[00:03:56.200 – 00:03:59.450] And it's great to have Bill S., the author, in the room with us. [00:03:59.450 – 00:03:59.920] Hi, Bill. [00:03:59.920 – 00:04:04.440] So with that, we're going over to Azell. [00:04:04.440 – 00:04:06.180] All yours, Azell. [00:04:06.180 – 00:04:07.740] And I'm gonna put up the Kindle edition. [00:04:07.740 – 00:04:08.220] Good man. [00:04:08.220 – 00:04:10.300] Okay, great, great.

[00:04:10.300 – 00:04:21.500] And while you're doing that, I'll just say that this is a fascinating chapter, and there's some insights here that, uh, uh, you [00:04:21.500 – 00:04:30.630] would not know about had it not been for the diligent and le- Thorough … [00:04:30.630 – 00:04:39.780] laborious task, um, that Bill went through to get this information, you know? [00:04:39.780 – 00:04:47.159] So with no further ado, here is chapter 20, Hank P.. [00:04:47.159 – 00:04:48.480] Azell, Azell, I beg your pardon. [00:04:48.480 – 00:04:50.380] If I may just before you start, can people mute themselves? [00:04:50.380 – 00:04:51.700] I, I'm gonna have to mute everyone.

[00:04:51.700 – 00:04:52.980] Can you just do that please? [00:04:52.980 – 00:04:54.040] 'Cause we don't want any… [00:04:54.040 – 00:04:58.640] Azell, I'll just mute everyone, and, and we, we'll un- unmute you then. [00:04:58.640 – 00:05:01.380] I'll unmute you, yeah. [00:05:01.380 – 00:05:02.680] Make you a co-host. [00:05:02.680 – 00:05:03.900] I beg your pardon about that now. [00:05:03.900 – 00:05:06.320] You good, Azell?

[00:05:06.320 – 00:05:07.320] How's that? [00:05:07.320 – 00:05:08.340] It's all yours. [00:05:08.340 – 00:05:08.960] Yeah. [00:05:08.960 – 00:05:09.480] Okay. [00:05:09.480 – 00:05:17.340] Chapter 20: Hank P., Managing E. and Two E.. [00:05:17.340 – 00:05:19.490] November 1938. [00:05:21.424 – 00:05:28.004] Hank P. may well have been the busiest man in AA during the final months of 1938.

[00:05:28.004 – 00:05:38.764] In addition to being increasingly distracted with Ruth H., he was trying to sell shares in the 100 Man C. while continuing [00:05:38.764 – 00:05:45.444] to lay the foundations for a national promotional campaign to coincide with the book's release. [00:05:45.444 – 00:05:56.104] Adding to all this frantic activity, Hank was also about to write two chapters for the Big Book, as has having [00:05:56.104 – 00:06:04.584] taken on the job of finding and hiring an editor to review the manuscript once it was completed. [00:06:04.584 – 00:06:14.104] In early November, with most of Bill's time devoted to writing, Hank assumed the role of managing editor. [00:06:14.104 – 00:06:24.224] Both men were aware of their status as amateurs and knew it was essential to find someone with some real writing [00:06:24.224 – 00:06:29.204] and publishing experience to edit the manuscript before it went to press.

[00:06:29.204 – 00:06:39.684] P., still unhappy with much of what had been written, may well have thought someone with an impressive enough set of credentials [00:06:39.684 – 00:06:49.924] might be able to critique the substance of Bill's writing and steer the book more in the psychological direction that he had in mind. [00:06:49.924 – 00:07:00.074] But whether or not this was actually part of Hank's agenda, both men agreed the book needed to be reviewed by a professional, [00:07:00.074 – 00:07:04.524] and P. took charge of that phase of the project. [00:07:04.524 – 00:07:07.964] Potential editors eliminated. [00:07:07.964 – 00:07:15.664] Several potential candidates for editor had presented themselves during the past few months. [00:07:15.664 – 00:07:25.944] Back in mid-June, Hank and Bill had met with Floyd P., a nationally known writer for the Saturday E. Post,

[00:07:25.944 – 00:07:31.664] who agreed to help them edit the work once it was more nearly finished. [00:07:31.664 – 00:07:41.764] But P. offer to edit the book was for some, was for some unknown reason [00:07:41.764 – 00:07:43.524] never mentioned again. [00:07:43.524 – 00:07:48.204] Perhaps F.'s services were just too expensive. [00:07:48.204 – 00:07:58.524] Four months later, P. only reference to P. was in relation to his promise to write an article for The Saturday [00:07:58.524 – 00:08:02.304] Evening P. that would coincide with the book's release. [00:08:02.304 – 00:08:06.884] Neither of these possibilities ever came to fruition.

[00:08:06.884 – 00:08:17.384] Within the fellowship, Silas B. had many years experience as a professional writer and editor, and he too [00:08:17.384 – 00:08:20.344] had offered to edit the book before it was published. [00:08:20.344 – 00:08:30.364] Unfortunately, Silas was having trouble just staying sober, and as we have seen, despite his acclaimed reputation [00:08:30.364 – 00:08:37.984] as an author, he did not write, and perhaps wasn't even asked to write, his own story for the book. [00:08:37.984 – 00:08:48.044] As the work moved swiftly toward completion, Silas B. was obviously no longer a viable candidate for the job of editor. [00:08:48.044 – 00:08:58.524] More recently, one of Bill's friends had given a copy of the first two chapters to a man named Arthur S., [00:08:58.524 – 00:09:02.464] and he marked them up extensively as he read them.

[00:09:02.464 – 00:09:12.684] In mid-October, he wrote to W. telling him that, "As an editor of 15 years experience, I just could not help [00:09:12.684 – 00:09:18.724] editing the MS as I went along, and I hope you will pardon this. [00:09:18.724 – 00:09:28.804] In any case, what I have done will make the MS more acceptable to a printer, though I fear some of the typing will be [00:09:28.804 – 00:09:31.144] apt to puzzle him a bit. [00:09:31.144 – 00:09:41.263] I have also marked a few queries which need attention." S. went on to qualify himself as a former alcoholic [00:09:41.263 – 00:09:51.304] who had recovered through a deep and abiding belief in the power of God, telling Bill he wanted to offer you [00:09:51.304 – 00:09:59.864] whatever my editorial knowledge and ability may be worth to you in this noble and Christ-like work.

[00:09:59.864 – 00:10:09.904] While A.'s generous offer of his services was perfectly in line with AA's limited resources, it appears [00:10:09.904 – 00:10:16.044] that his editorial suggestions were not, and we never hear of him again. [00:10:16.044 – 00:10:26.284] If A. S.'s letter and his suggested edits were ever brought to Hank's attention, he di- he dismissed him [00:10:26.284 – 00:10:35.264] as a potential candidate, deciding to find a much more qualified and far less religious editor for the book. [00:10:35.264 – 00:10:39.424] None of these people fit the profile Hank was looking for… [00:10:39.536 – 00:10:40.516] Or in an editor. [00:10:40.516 – 00:10:50.736] He felt the book needed and deserved the best critical review, and he was committed to finding the most experienced and professional editor

[00:10:50.736 – 00:10:51.416] possible. [00:10:51.416 – 00:11:01.536] To his mind, a proper editing job, one that improved whatever amateurish mistakes they might have made while [00:11:01.536 – 00:11:06.556] writing, was the critical step needed for the book to become a bestseller. [00:11:06.556 – 00:11:12.596] And as usual, P. had set his sights very high. [00:11:12.596 – 00:11:15.836] He wasn't just looking for a bestseller. [00:11:15.836 – 00:11:26.116] He actually had serious hopes their book would become a Book of the Month C. selection, something that would guarantee them immediate [00:11:26.116 – 00:11:30.696] nationwide exposure and a truly huge initial sale.

[00:11:30.696 – 00:11:32.076] Asterisk. [00:11:32.076 – 00:11:34.816] Thank you. [00:11:34.816 – 00:11:45.296] In the beginning of 1939, the Book of the Month C. had 360,000 subscribed members who each month would elect to receive [00:11:45.296 – 00:11:48.196] or not receive the club's monthly selection. [00:11:48.196 – 00:11:55.636] This is, uh, uh, from fundinguniverse.com Company H. Book of the Month C. Inc. [00:11:55.636 – 00:11:58.536] History, retrieved on August 7th, 2015. [00:11:58.536 – 00:12:00.656] Back to you, Ezell.

[00:12:00.656 – 00:12:02.336] Thank you. [00:12:02.336 – 00:12:04.616] Two editors chosen. [00:12:04.616 – 00:12:14.676] With these criteria in mind, Hank began his search for a professional review, critique, and correct their [00:12:14.676 – 00:12:15.796] book. [00:12:15.796 – 00:12:22.556] But rather than hiring just one editor, P. rather quickly decided on two. [00:12:22.556 – 00:12:24.286] Thomas H. [00:12:24.286 – 00:12:30.036] U. would review the overall format of the book, while Janet M.

[00:12:30.036 – 00:12:34.316] Blair would more minutely edit the text. [00:12:34.316 – 00:12:44.496] U. may have suggested this creative approach, dividing the editorial responsibilities between himself, [00:12:44.496 – 00:12:54.816] a prominent and expensive literary critic, and Blair, a qualified but less prestigious, and therefore less costly, [00:12:54.816 – 00:13:05.156] text editor, would effectively reduce the overall expense of the editorial work and keep the cost within AA's limited budget. [00:13:05.156 – 00:13:15.236] Lois later claimed that U. was someone whom Hank knew, but she offers no further details on what [00:13:15.236 – 00:13:16.976] their relationship might have been. [00:13:16.976 – 00:13:26.976] By far, the simplest explanation of how P. knew U. would be that he was a teacher at the NYU writing school

[00:13:26.976 – 00:13:36.936] where, around this time, P. and H. were taking a semester's worth of classes on how to write short stories. [00:13:36.936 – 00:13:47.106] While the plausibility of this scenario is supported only by circumstantial evidence and inference, it [00:13:47.106 – 00:13:57.116] is certainly the least complicated explanation for how Hank may have met Tom U., and it might also help [00:13:57.116 – 00:14:00.896] explain how he was introduced to Janet B.. [00:14:00.896 – 00:14:10.956] As we shall see shortly, it is possible U. knew Janet B. through a mutual acquaintance, so it is [00:14:10.956 – 00:14:15.696] not unlikely that Tom was the person who recommended her to P.. [00:14:15.696 – 00:14:25.846] Even more speculative, but still within the realm of possibility, would be that Blair was one of the teachers at U.'s

[00:14:25.846 – 00:14:29.556] own writing school when he recommended her to P.. [00:14:29.556 – 00:14:30.936] Asterisk. [00:14:30.936 – 00:14:40.986] U.'s writing school was very successful during the 1930s, and he was known to employ people as his assistant and [00:14:40.986 – 00:14:43.496] to act as a teaching agent. [00:14:43.496 – 00:14:53.796] See, for instance, his employment of Eleanor B. Pearl in these jobs during 1937 and 1938, as noted in the Smith A. Quarterly, [00:14:53.796 – 00:15:00.616] November, 1937, page 110, and November, 1938, page 108. [00:15:00.616 – 00:15:04.856] This was retrieved online August 7th, 2015.

[00:15:04.856 – 00:15:08.816] Janet B. may well have been one of these teaching agents. [00:15:08.816 – 00:15:18.836] In a telling comment, Ruth H. once noted that the big book was edited by a New York editor [00:15:18.836 – 00:15:20.376] and his office staff. [00:15:20.376 – 00:15:25.266] If this is true, then Janet B. was that staff member. [00:15:25.266 – 00:15:35.476] There are certainly other ways to explain how P. might have met and hired U. and Blair as complimentary editors, [00:15:35.476 – 00:15:45.996] but the New York University scenario is the most appealing for its simplicity and for the way it fits so neatly with the known facts, [00:15:45.996 – 00:15:48.136] few though they may be.

[00:15:48.136 – 00:15:51.796] Tom U. to help shape the book. [00:15:51.796 – 00:15:58.456] However they met, the first person Hank chose to help shape the book was Thomas H. [00:15:58.456 – 00:15:59.006] U. [00:15:59.588 – 00:16:07.328] A 54-year-old author and established critic with an impressive list of literary accomplishments. [00:16:07.328 – 00:16:13.548] In an early January letter to Bill W., Hank enumerated his credentials. [00:16:13.548 – 00:16:14.608] "Mr. [00:16:14.608 – 00:16:15.768] Thomas H.

[00:16:15.768 – 00:16:26.148] U., former editor Collier's Magazine, writer of several books, contributor to Collier's Saturday E. Post, et cetera. [00:16:26.148 – 00:16:30.908] As you know, hardly a year goes past when one of Mr. [00:16:30.908 – 00:16:35.568] U.'s writers do not appear on the bestsellers list. [00:16:35.568 – 00:16:39.408] Incidentally, this might be interesting to you. [00:16:39.408 – 00:16:49.448] Such books as The Good Earth, If I Had F. Apples, The Outward Room, and three Book of the Month C. books [00:16:49.508 – 00:16:57.488] and bestsellers for months after publishing were submitted to him for criticism and final designing. [00:16:57.488 – 00:17:07.847] In the publishing and literary world, I know there is no one so well-established and looked up to as Mr.

[00:17:07.847 – 00:17:17.908] U., asterisk." Hank's telltale "as you know" implies that this letter was written not so much to bring all of these [00:17:17.908 – 00:17:27.928] wonderful details about Tom U. to Bill's attention, as it was to write a letter that could be passed on to impress others, as it was subsequently [00:17:27.928 – 00:17:36.528] circulated to members of the R. group to convince them of the rightness of their decision to public the big- publish the Big Book themselves. [00:17:36.528 – 00:17:46.708] Tom U. regularly placed advertisements in writing magazines offering professional training to new [00:17:46.708 – 00:17:54.188] writers, along with his services as a freelance literary critic for those with finished manuscripts. [00:17:54.188 – 00:18:04.188] If he and Hank did not meet through the NYU writing school, then P. may have located him [00:18:04.188 – 00:18:06.988] by responding to one of these many ads.

[00:18:06.988 – 00:18:15.508] In one, U. detailed his experience as an editor, published author, and writing teacher. [00:18:15.508 – 00:18:25.588] And then under a bold headline entitled Selling T., he encouraged unpublished authors to contact him for advice, [00:18:25.588 – 00:18:32.148] "Because I know my business and analyzing, collaborating, selling. [00:18:32.148 – 00:18:38.908] Because my reports are absolutely honest, prompt, and sympathetic. [00:18:38.908 – 00:18:43.108] Thousands of unarrived writers have come to me for help. [00:18:43.108 – 00:18:48.048] Why not you?" His resume was certainly impressive. [00:18:48.048 – 00:18:48.828] There's a footnote there.

[00:18:48.828 – 00:18:50.928] Footnote. [00:18:50.928 – 00:18:51.528] Yeah. [00:18:51.528 – 00:19:01.828] I'm grateful to Arthur S., the AA historian from Arlington, Texas, for providing me with a copy of this advertisement. [00:19:01.828 – 00:19:12.008] Similar ads placed by U. can be found online in the 1920 issues of the Writer magazine and in the 1922 issues of the Editor [00:19:12.008 – 00:19:12.868] magazine. [00:19:12.868 – 00:19:14.228] Back to you. [00:19:14.228 – 00:19:15.588] Thank you.

[00:19:15.588 – 00:19:25.628] Hi- his resume was certainly impressive, and this was exactly the kind of close-the-sales question that would have caught Hank's [00:19:25.628 – 00:19:28.908] attention if he had read that particular ad. [00:19:28.908 – 00:19:37.928] It is also possible Tom U. came to P.'s attention through a more personal recommendation. [00:19:37.928 – 00:19:48.508] In his description of U.'s accomplishments n- noted above, Hank mentions that he had been involved in the criticism and final design [00:19:48.508 – 00:19:49.508] of The Good Earth. [00:19:49.508 – 00:19:59.748] This suggests P. may have first heard about Tom U. from Richard W., the head of John D. Publishing [00:19:59.748 – 00:20:08.408] Company, publisher of The Good Earth, during their long meeting the previous month.

[00:20:08.408 – 00:20:18.808] Among all the other topics covered in that informative session with this candid and extremely helpful industry insider, [00:20:18.808 – 00:20:29.108] one of Hank's questions may have been, "So who might be a good person to edit our book?" And Tom U. [00:20:29.108 – 00:20:32.098] could have been Richard W.'s answer. [00:20:32.098 – 00:20:42.148] But however P. made the connection with him, U.'s professional credentials were remarkable, attesting to his [00:20:42.148 – 00:20:46.028] long and successful career as both writer and editor. [00:20:46.028 – 00:20:56.548] From the 1910s to the 1930s, he was a regular contributor to an impressive list of magazines, including [00:20:56.548 – 00:21:06.548] The Saturday Evening P., Scribner's, Munsey's, The Writer's Digest, Woman's Home C.,

[00:21:06.548 – 00:21:16.548] The Saturday Review, The American Scholar, The North American R., and Collier's, where he served as fiction editor for two [00:21:16.548 – 00:21:17.008] years. [00:21:17.008 – 00:21:18.738] In addition- [00:21:19.260 – 00:21:28.860] His books at this time included Narrative T., 1923, and Writing as a Career, 1938. [00:21:28.860 – 00:21:38.090] The first of these, a textbook on writing, was so popular that it went through several editions over the next three decades. [00:21:38.090 – 00:21:48.300] As might be expected of a man with such noteworthy experience and high reputation, Tom U.'s services were [00:21:48.300 – 00:21:49.620] not inexpensive.

[00:21:49.620 – 00:21:59.620] In the magazine ad for his services as literary critic, under the rather direct and challenging header entitled What [00:21:59.620 – 00:22:09.880] the Truth C., U. tells his potential customers his fee for a single manuscript is $5 for 5,000 [00:22:09.880 – 00:22:15.380] words or less and a dollar a thousand above that. [00:22:15.380 – 00:22:24.840] This makes it easy to calculate how much his services would cost if Hank P. hired him for the job. [00:22:24.840 – 00:22:34.940] Since the front half of the book of the multi-lith printing was just under 50,000 words, and the story section slightly less than [00:22:34.940 – 00:22:44.440] that, U.'s estimated bill for the most basic literary review of the book would have been roughly $100. [00:22:44.440 – 00:22:54.460] Finally, it is worth mentioning that in his role as teacher and literary critic, Tom U. was a great debunker

[00:22:54.460 – 00:22:59.700] of the holy mystery of writing and the genius of writers. [00:22:59.700 – 00:23:09.740] He once claimed, "If there is such a thing as literary gift, meaning any endowment that comes without working at it, I have [00:23:09.740 – 00:23:19.960] never been able to find it after years of working with both literary successes and failures." In support of this, he asserted his firm [00:23:19.960 – 00:23:30.000] belief that the people that succeed at authorship seem to have something to say, with energy and egotism to say it, [00:23:30.000 – 00:23:32.480] and need the money. [00:23:32.480 – 00:23:40.780] These qualifications come pretty close to being those needed for success in any profession or business. [00:23:40.780 – 00:23:50.940] It would be hard to imagine a better description of the situation W. and P. found themselves

[00:23:50.940 – 00:23:51.340] in. [00:23:51.340 – 00:23:54.800] They clearly had something important to say. [00:23:54.800 – 00:24:03.180] There was no lack of energy or egotism in what they said, and they were very much in need of money. [00:24:03.180 – 00:24:13.380] Tom U.'s credentials as a professional editor met all of Hank's criteria in his supremely confident [00:24:13.380 – 00:24:13.940] tone. [00:24:13.940 – 00:24:24.209] He once referred to himself in an ad as the foremost American teacher of creative writing, would have also spoken directly [00:24:24.209 – 00:24:27.180] to P.'s own perspective on the world.

[00:24:27.180 – 00:24:31.460] On so many different levels, Thomas H. [00:24:31.460 – 00:24:35.239] U. was his perfect candidate for this job. [00:24:35.239 – 00:24:40.200] Janet B. as text editor. [00:24:40.200 – 00:24:50.560] But before he actually met with U., Hank had lunch with his second candidate, the woman he hoped would become [00:24:50.560 – 00:24:52.980] editor for the text of the manuscript. [00:24:52.980 – 00:25:03.220] This was the 61-year-old Janet B., who had served as secretary to several famous authors throughout her long career [00:25:03.220 – 00:25:13.680] in New York City, and who later ran a secretarial school based in her hometown of Peekskill, New York, 45

[00:25:13.680 – 00:25:18.020] miles due north of New York City on the Hudson R.. [00:25:18.020 – 00:25:28.020] But during late 1938, Janet was clearly open to assuming a variety of freelance jobs to help support [00:25:28.020 – 00:25:28.840] her family. [00:25:28.840 – 00:25:39.120] Over the previous two decades in New York, Janet had worked as a secretary for a number of academics and authors [00:25:39.180 – 00:25:45.980] with occasional breaks in her employment as demanded by ongoing family issues. [00:25:45.980 – 00:25:47.020] Asterisk. [00:25:47.020 – 00:25:57.040] Besides her sister's health issue, which required her presence in Nova S. on one or more occasions, Blair's husband was laid off from

[00:25:57.040 – 00:26:04.200] his railroad job at least twice and also had some serious medical issues that demanded her undivided attention. [00:26:04.200 – 00:26:10.120] Similarly, her daughter had some recurrent health problems during the late 1920s. [00:26:10.120 – 00:26:20.940] See J. Blair to Ida T., November 9th, 1921, February 23rd, 1928, and August 22, 1935. [00:26:20.940 – 00:26:30.180] Accessible in PDF format from Allegheny C., uh, Allegheny C., and there's a UR- URL reference to follow that. [00:26:30.180 – 00:26:32.680] Take it back, Ezell. [00:26:32.680 – 00:26:34.140] All right. [00:26:34.140 – 00:26:34.760] Thank you.

[00:26:34.760 – 00:26:38.550] For instance, throughout 1916 [00:26:39.032 – 00:26:49.352] and into early 1917, Blair was secretary to the author Ida T., but then left her employ for several months [00:26:49.352 – 00:26:50.372] to have a baby. [00:26:50.372 – 00:27:00.382] Returning to the job in early 1918, she managed Tarbell's busy schedule and her correspondence for the next three [00:27:00.382 – 00:27:00.992] years. [00:27:00.992 – 00:27:09.772] 10 years later, she was once again working for Tarbell, and continued to do so for approximately two years. [00:27:09.772 – 00:27:20.772] Beyond that, the two women remained distant friends, exchanging birthday wishes and Christmas cards, and occasionally

[00:27:20.772 – 00:27:27.292] scheduling lunch dates when they both happened to be in New York City at the same time. [00:27:27.292 – 00:27:37.872] It is more than a little ironic that Hank P. would even consider Janet B. for this job, given her long personal history [00:27:37.872 – 00:27:40.592] and close relationship with Ida T.. [00:27:40.592 – 00:27:50.952] From the mid-1920s onward, Tarbell wrote primarily as a Lincoln scholar, with many books and magazine articles [00:27:50.952 – 00:27:54.312] about the 16th president to her credit. [00:27:54.312 – 00:28:04.312] But throughout the first half of her career, she was the most famous of the muckrakers, the name given to early 20th century magazine [00:28:04.312 – 00:28:14.392] writers who specialized in sensational exposes of the disreputable, destructive, and even criminal business

[00:28:14.392 – 00:28:18.972] practices so common to American capitalism at that time. [00:28:18.972 – 00:28:28.972] As such, Tarbell almost single-handedly invented the profession of investigative journalist, [00:28:28.972 – 00:28:38.232] and she had done so most prominently in her brilliant, merciless, and scathing expose of the Standard O. Company. [00:28:38.232 – 00:28:48.812] This she published in a series of 19 articles serialized over two years in McClure's Magazine [00:28:48.812 – 00:28:58.952] starting in 1902, and then put into book, book form as The History of the Standard O. Company [00:28:58.952 – 00:29:00.452] in 1904. [00:29:00.452 – 00:29:04.272] Ida T. was not just famous.

[00:29:04.272 – 00:29:12.572] She was positively notorious as the woman who had publicly humiliated and exposed John D. [00:29:12.572 – 00:29:22.592] R. Sr., characterizing him as a mean-spirited, miserly, money-grubbing man who was perhaps the cruelest, [00:29:22.592 – 00:29:31.272] most vicious, and the most untrustworthy titan of industry the country had ever produced. [00:29:31.272 – 00:29:32.912] Footnote. [00:29:32.912 – 00:29:35.112] C. [00:29:35.112 – 00:29:38.072] Troy's outstanding biography of John D. [00:29:38.072 – 00:29:47.772] Rocke- R. Sr., where chapter two, Avenging A., on pages 425 to 465 is devoted to Tarbell.

[00:29:47.772 – 00:29:57.932] There he notes that this series was one of the most influential pieces of journalism in American business history, and the one in which Ida T. turned [00:29:57.932 – 00:30:03.132] America's most private man into its most public and hated figure. [00:30:03.132 – 00:30:06.632] That's from Titan, page 438. [00:30:06.632 – 00:30:08.532] Okay. [00:30:08.532 – 00:30:18.772] As noted in one brief biography of her, Tarbell capped the series in McClure's with a two-part [00:30:18.772 – 00:30:26.672] character study that revealed her fixation with the man she had been studying for the better part of five years. [00:30:26.672 – 00:30:36.912] Focusing on R.'s weary appearance, she called him the oldest man in the world, a living mummy, and accused

[00:30:36.912 – 00:30:39.952] him of being money mad and a hypocrite. [00:30:39.952 – 00:30:49.952] "Our national life is on every side distinctly poorer, uglier, meaner for the kind of influence [00:30:49.952 – 00:30:53.112] he exercises," she concluded. [00:30:53.112 – 00:31:03.332] R. was deeply hurt by this last attack from that poisonous woman, as he called her, but he refused to engage [00:31:03.332 – 00:31:06.652] in any public rebuttal of her allegations. [00:31:06.652 – 00:31:10.472] "Not a word," he told his advisors. [00:31:10.472 – 00:31:20.572] "Not a word about that misguided woman, Astrid." Tarbell's well-documented revelations about the predatory practices

[00:31:20.572 – 00:31:30.872] of Standard O. finally led to its breakup into 34 different companies in 1911, when the Supreme C. ruled it to be in violation of the Sherman [00:31:30.872 – 00:31:32.172] Antitrust A.. [00:31:32.172 – 00:31:39.012] That's from Wikipedia, Standard O. main article retrieved August 6th, 2015. [00:31:39.012 – 00:31:41.172] Okay. [00:31:41.172 – 00:31:51.772] It is possible P. was unaware of Blair's connection with Tarbell, but that seems improbable since it was almost [00:31:51.772 – 00:31:55.772] certainly the most prominent and important item on her resume. [00:31:55.772 – 00:31:58.262] And if Hank did not know about-

[00:31:58.514 – 00:31:59.404] about this connection. [00:31:59.404 – 00:32:09.604] It is a wonder he didn't worry about the consequences once the R. people discovered he had hired an editor who was so closely [00:32:09.604 – 00:32:12.884] associated with the family's single greatest enemy. [00:32:12.884 – 00:32:23.224] If P. was at all bothered by this potential problem, he dismissed it, for whatever reason, as being irrelevant [00:32:23.224 – 00:32:25.544] to his decision to hire Mrs. [00:32:25.544 – 00:32:29.524] Janet B. Wood on her own merits. [00:32:29.524 – 00:32:31.684] Asterisk.

[00:32:31.684 – 00:32:41.924] Since this was during the three-month period when W. and P. had distanced themselves significantly from the R. contingent, [00:32:41.924 – 00:32:51.964] a connection that would not be firmly reestablished until January of 1939, it may also have been that Hank P. felt he didn't [00:32:51.964 – 00:32:55.004] need to worry about what they would think about his decision. [00:32:55.004 – 00:32:56.624] Back to you. [00:32:56.624 – 00:32:58.144] All right. [00:32:58.144 – 00:33:05.563] The other famous person Blair had worked for during this time was the academic Walter B. [00:33:05.563 – 00:33:12.984] Pitkin, who in 1932 authored the immensely popular Life B. at 40.

[00:33:12.984 – 00:33:23.024] Pitkin's book was a publishing phenomenon, becoming the number one nonfiction bestseller in 1933, and [00:33:23.024 – 00:33:29.324] staying on that list in the number two position throughout 1934. [00:33:29.324 – 00:33:39.674] Walter P. had taught philosophy and psychology during his first five years at Columbia U., but then spent the next [00:33:39.674 – 00:33:48.944] 30 years, from 1912 to 1943, as one of the most famous teachers in their renowned school of journalism. [00:33:48.944 – 00:33:59.024] More than a little intriguing is the fact that Tom U. had worked for Walter P. for two years in the early 1920s [00:33:59.024 – 00:34:09.084] as his associate and manager, a position that required Tom to frequently substitute for him in [00:34:09.084 – 00:34:14.044] Columbia S. of Journalism fiction classes.

[00:34:14.044 – 00:34:14.763] Asterisk. [00:34:14.763 – 00:34:25.104] This advertisement, and several others, attest to Uziel's years at Columbia U., rather than the often-quoted but likely [00:34:25.104 – 00:34:29.284] incorrect statement that he was on the faculty at New York University. [00:34:29.284 – 00:34:34.264] See for instance this misattribution in Pass It On, page 204. [00:34:34.264 – 00:34:43.344] It is of course always possible that he did teach some classes at NYU in addition to his well-known duties at Columbia. [00:34:43.344 – 00:34:54.204] The first ads Uziel ran for his mail order writing course in 1922 actually [00:34:54.204 – 00:35:02.204] claimed he was teaching a new method that has been ad- devised by Professor W. B.

[00:35:02.204 – 00:35:12.464] Pitkin, the leading university teacher in the field, the leading university teacher in the field. [00:35:12.464 – 00:35:14.224] Asterisk. [00:35:14.224 – 00:35:24.564] The year before Uziel began advertising his mail order course, Walter P. had published full-page ads for his own mail order cour- course [00:35:24.564 – 00:35:28.464] under the bold headline, "You can learn story writers. [00:35:28.464 – 00:35:38.484] Story writing, $5." The ad actually quoted Tom U. on how valuable Pi- Pitkin's method had been in teaching how to [00:35:38.484 – 00:35:40.564] vi- write saleable stories. [00:35:40.564 – 00:35:46.104] That's from The Independent, April 16th, 1921, page 418.

[00:35:46.104 – 00:35:56.164] While this connection may have been just coincidental, it is possible Blair and Uziel knew of each [00:35:56.164 – 00:36:06.204] other through their mutual relationships with Walter P., and if so, this might be another avenue whereby Tom U. knew [00:36:06.204 – 00:36:09.684] and recommended Janet B. to Hank P.. [00:36:09.684 – 00:36:14.964] However, Hank was introduced to Janet B.. [00:36:14.964 – 00:36:25.344] However H. was introduced to Janet B., they met for lunch, most likely on Friday, November 4, and he was so impressed [00:36:25.344 – 00:36:26.924] that he offered her the job. [00:36:26.924 – 00:36:37.044] In a long letter written on Monday, November 7, P. promised to send her a check later that same week as a retainer

[00:36:37.044 – 00:36:38.804] confirming their arrangement. [00:36:38.804 – 00:36:44.544] He also told her he had discussed criticism fee with Mr. [00:36:44.544 – 00:36:54.644] W., "And we both agree that you are em- eminently fair, and thank you for your real generosity." This suggests that Hank [00:36:54.644 – 00:37:05.264] had negotiated a reduction in Blair's regular fee based either on AA's limited budget or on the worthiness of their lifesaving [00:37:05.264 – 00:37:07.324] program or both. [00:37:07.324 – 00:37:17.344] In that same letter, P. went into some detail about the current state of the writing project and his estimation [00:37:17.344 – 00:37:17.894] of when it would be-

[00:37:18.108 – 00:37:18.788] Be finished. [00:37:18.788 – 00:37:21.588] According to schedule, Mr. [00:37:21.588 – 00:37:27.168] W. will be through with the first write of, of the book by December 5th. [00:37:27.168 – 00:37:33.128] As you know, there is a considerable portion of our group in Akron. [00:37:33.128 – 00:37:36.048] Before starting to rewrite, Mr. [00:37:36.048 – 00:37:41.388] W. wants to go over the contents of the book carefully with the people out there. [00:37:41.388 – 00:37:51.268] In setting up our calendar, we have allowed ample time, and there is a good possibility that we may be two weeks ahead of schedule.

[00:37:51.268 – 00:37:57.688] However, December 19th is the day we have set when we expect Mr. [00:37:57.688 – 00:38:04.648] W. to have a complete first write of the book with full suggestions from the Akron group. [00:38:04.648 – 00:38:10.348] Subsequent events would prove this schedule to be unrealistic. [00:38:10.348 – 00:38:15.548] The manuscript was nowhere near complete on December 5. [00:38:15.548 – 00:38:23.567] It is even uncertain whether the 12 steps had been written by that time, let alone the two chapters based on them. [00:38:23.567 – 00:38:32.328] Nor did Bill ever get out to Ohio for consultation with the Akron contingent in December. [00:38:32.328 – 00:38:42.328] That didn't happen until March 1, a full month after he had turned the manuscript over to Janet B. for editing in

[00:38:42.328 – 00:38:43.788] early February. [00:38:43.788 – 00:38:52.368] Hank followed this with a rather offhanded comment that revealed a number of things about his recent activities. [00:38:52.368 – 00:38:57.288] "As you know," he wrote, "I am going to have a talk with Mr. [00:38:57.288 – 00:39:08.568] Uziel in regard to the format of the book, and this will be covered within next, within the next two weeks." P. [00:39:08.568 – 00:39:18.608] had clearly already decided to hire Tom U. prior to this lunch, and he told Blair about Uziel's involvement during that [00:39:18.608 – 00:39:24.648] meeting, explaining their different areas of responsibility within the project. [00:39:24.648 – 00:39:34.748] His plan to hire two editors charged with different tasks was obviously already in place before P. met with Blair.

[00:39:34.748 – 00:39:45.128] Having confirmed her employment, outlined the probable work schedule, and reaffirmed the dual responsibilities for editing [00:39:45.128 – 00:39:49.868] the book, Hank then asked about the best way to proceed going forward. [00:39:49.868 – 00:39:53.988] "Now, what is the soundest procedure for us to follow? [00:39:53.988 – 00:39:59.368] Should we wait until the first write is completed and until Mr. [00:39:59.368 – 00:40:09.488] W. has finished his Akron checkup, and then rewritten and sharpened up the entire book, which [00:40:09.488 – 00:40:16.268] we figure will be done by January 1st, before submitting it to, to you? [00:40:16.268 – 00:40:24.578] Or " excuse me, "or should we begin to send chapters along to you now?

[00:40:24.578 – 00:40:34.848] As you agreed at lunch the other day, it would not be well for the author to have these suggestions until he is through with his first write. [00:40:34.848 – 00:40:38.868] On the other hand, it might save time for you. [00:40:38.868 – 00:40:46.508] It might get the book more thoroughly in your mind if we began to send along first writes to you. [00:40:46.508 – 00:40:56.508] What are your suggestions?" It is interesting to note that P. says Blair had told him at lunch that it would [00:40:56.508 – 00:41:02.968] not be well for the author to have these suggestions until he is through with his first write. [00:41:02.968 – 00:41:13.067] But he still wonders whether or not they should begin to send such chapters along to you [00:41:13.068 – 00:41:16.648] now, and then asked for her thoughts on the matter.

[00:41:16.648 – 00:41:27.228] Perhaps you had to be at that lunch meeting to fully understand this paragraph, but it is very much, but it very much sounds as [00:41:27.228 – 00:41:35.148] if Hank is asking Janet to reconsider a firm opinion that she had already offered him on the subject. [00:41:35.148 – 00:41:45.148] Finally, P. asked if it would be helpful for Blair to actually meet and talk with Bill W. before she begins [00:41:45.148 – 00:41:46.068] this project. [00:41:46.068 – 00:41:48.368] "What do you think of bringing Mr. [00:41:48.368 – 00:41:55.548] W. up to see you at your office in Peekskill, or meeting him sometime in New York? [00:41:55.548 – 00:42:02.548] He has an absorbing story to tell you, which would probably consume three or four hours.

[00:42:02.548 – 00:42:11.168] Would this affect your criticism, or would you have fear, or would you prefer to wait and hear about it all later? [00:42:11.168 – 00:42:21.548] I ask this from the standpoint of the book, as I know you are intensely interested from a personal standpoint [00:42:21.548 – 00:42:31.888] and want to meet him." Blair's reply has not been preserved, so there's no way of knowing what her response might have been [00:42:31.888 – 00:42:33.448] to all of these questions. [00:42:33.448 – 00:42:37.517] But much of that reply would have been based on Hank's [00:42:37.960 – 00:42:43.740] proposed schedule, which began to slip almost immediately. [00:42:43.740 – 00:42:47.180] Whether J. Blair and Bill W. ever met is unknown.

[00:42:47.180 – 00:42:57.460] The letters make clear, however, that Hank was planning to meet with Tom U. within two weeks, and in all likelihood, that meeting took [00:42:57.460 – 00:42:58.800] place as scheduled. [00:42:58.800 – 00:43:08.900] But all of these other deadlines would be pushed back significantly over the next several weeks, and it would be three months [00:43:08.900 – 00:43:13.920] before Janet B. ever received a copy of the manuscript for editing. [00:43:13.920 – 00:43:23.920] But what is most important in this letter is the clear evidence that P. had taken complete control of the editing [00:43:23.920 – 00:43:32.060] process, and had already engaged two people to do their respective jobs in relation to the manuscript. [00:43:32.060 – 00:43:40.060] Hank would continue to act as managing editor of the book right up until the day it was published.

[00:43:40.060 – 00:43:43.820] Hank finally sells some stock. [00:43:43.820 – 00:43:54.440] Besides assembling his team to edit the book, P. spent the first two weeks of November diligently trying to sell shares of stock [00:43:54.440 – 00:43:56.680] in the 100 Man C.. [00:43:56.680 – 00:44:06.700] Using typed copies of the sales perspective he had created, Hank talked to as many people [00:44:06.700 – 00:44:13.220] as he could, hoping to convince them to invest in this outstanding new opportunity. [00:44:13.220 – 00:44:23.260] But even with the glowing promises made in his initial sales offering, closing these deals proved to be more difficult than he [00:44:23.260 – 00:44:24.340] had expected.

[00:44:24.340 – 00:44:34.840] During his first burst of energetic selling, Hank did convince one company and seven different people to purchase 26 [00:44:34.840 – 00:44:38.540] shares of $25 stock outright. [00:44:38.540 – 00:44:49.869] The biggest investor, Stainox C., the company that made the auto polish marketed by the Honor dealers, bought [00:44:49.869 – 00:44:50.740] eight shares. [00:44:50.740 – 00:45:01.300] Another 18 shares went to business friends and associates, including William C., one of the original investors in Honor dealers, [00:45:01.300 – 00:45:05.380] and Clayton Q., Bill W.'s former employer. [00:45:05.380 – 00:45:12.460] And one lone member of AA, Norman H., bought a single share.

[00:45:12.460 – 00:45:14.080] Asterisk. [00:45:14.080 – 00:45:24.740] And it says, "The subscribers listed on this comprehensive document, prepared on May 15th, 1940, are arranged in the chronological [00:45:24.740 – 00:45:27.140] order in which they made their purchases. [00:45:27.140 – 00:45:37.140] This is conclusively confirmed when the list is correlated with the many letters that Ruth H. wrote in 19- early 1939, either [00:45:37.140 – 00:45:44.640] reporting on the outright sale of shares or asking for more timely monthly payments." That's it. [00:45:44.640 – 00:45:45.820] This generated… [00:45:45.820 – 00:45:47.740] Thank you.

[00:45:47.740 – 00:45:57.380] This generated a much needed $650 ready cash to help with P.'s ongoing expenses. [00:45:57.380 – 00:46:08.500] But as Bill W. had noted in his sheep and goats letter in late September, Hank was already in debt to the tune of $2,000, [00:46:08.500 – 00:46:16.120] and he needed at least 600 a month just to maintain his own household and the office in Newark. [00:46:16.120 – 00:46:26.520] While $650 was certainly a positive and much appreciated infusion of cash, it was too little, too late [00:46:26.520 – 00:46:30.460] to get Hank even close to caught up on his bills. [00:46:30.460 – 00:46:41.120] An additional seven buyers could only afford to buy a total of 34 shares once Hank had offered them [00:46:41.120 – 00:46:44.940] his $5 a month for five months payment plan.

[00:46:44.940 – 00:46:53.160] Three of these investors were members of the New York Fellowship, and the other four were either their friends or relatives. [00:46:53.160 – 00:47:03.180] George W., who reportedly got sober the previous June, bought 12 shares on time, while [00:47:03.180 – 00:47:12.600] Bill R. and Herb T. committed to purchase five shares each over the next five months. [00:47:12.600 – 00:47:22.820] The remaining stock was bought by Herb T.'s mother, five shares, and one of his business associates, four [00:47:22.820 – 00:47:23.780] shares. [00:47:23.780 – 00:47:33.940] And two of Bill R.'s friends, who purchased [00:47:33.940 – 00:47:36.840] one and two shares respectively.

[00:47:36.840 – 00:47:37.540] Asterisk. [00:47:37.540 – 00:47:48.200] The connections between Taylor and R. and these other buyers is confirmed in several of Ruth H.'s letters of early 1939. [00:47:48.200 – 00:47:57.430] The first payments for all of these bought on time investments were due on November 15, and could- [00:47:57.572 – 00:48:07.632] Could be counted on to generate $170 in cash every month for Hank from November through March [00:48:07.632 – 00:48:10.272] if payments were actually made on time. [00:48:10.272 – 00:48:20.552] If the $650 already received for outright purchases was budgeted over the next five months, that is, [00:48:20.552 – 00:48:30.572] i.e., $130 a month, and added to this time payment income, P. would have a monthly income

[00:48:30.572 – 00:48:37.462] of $300, just half of the amount he needed to stay solvent, but better than nothing. [00:48:37.462 – 00:48:47.932] At this point, a careful analysis of the 1940 stock subscriber list shows something surprising. [00:48:47.932 – 00:48:58.472] These 60 shares, bought by 14 different people and one company, were all purchased before November 15, 1938, [00:48:58.472 – 00:49:08.472] and Hank did not sell any more shares of stock between that date and the first week of January 1939. [00:49:08.472 – 00:49:18.472] Asterisk In his January 4th, 1939 letter to Frank A., Bill W. claims that 93 shares [00:49:18.472 – 00:49:21.332] have been subscribed for in cash by that date. [00:49:21.332 – 00:49:31.732] Exactly where this number came from is uncertain, but it is conclusively contradicted by the detailed May 15th, 1940 subscribers

[00:49:31.732 – 00:49:32.192] list. [00:49:32.192 – 00:49:42.462] One possible explanation might be that Bill had asked Hank for a number, and P. had not untypically replied with one that [00:49:42.462 – 00:49:47.142] was based more on promises and expectations than actual sales. [00:49:47.142 – 00:49:50.932] And that's followed by a GSO file reference. [00:49:50.932 – 00:49:53.011] Wow. [00:49:53.011 – 00:50:03.232] Clearly, his efforts to sell more stock in the 100-man corporation were completely suspended [00:50:03.232 – 00:50:13.352] during the last six weeks of, of the year as his energies were redirected to his own writings for the book, the organization

[00:50:13.352 – 00:50:23.932] of the editorial review team, the arguments that would surface and dominate the fellowship throughout December once [00:50:23.932 – 00:50:30.712] the 12 steps were written, and the final assembly of a review manuscript for Tom U.. [00:50:30.712 – 00:50:35.292] Bill lets Hank write to employers. [00:50:35.292 – 00:50:45.492] However little acceptance Hank may have so far received for his ideas about the proper contents of the book, he was now given [00:50:45.492 – 00:50:55.572] the opportunity to do some writing of his own for the book, and he was hoping he would be able to show Bill W. some concrete examples [00:50:55.572 – 00:50:59.452] of how he thought that job should've been done all along. [00:50:59.452 – 00:51:09.832] When it came to business manners, W. consistently deferred to P.'s great- greater expertise,

[00:51:09.832 – 00:51:15.352] freely acknowledging his much more extensive experience within the corporate world. [00:51:15.352 – 00:51:25.352] Bill had never held a job managing a large number of people, nor did he ever regularly report to a more senior person within a [00:51:25.352 – 00:51:26.532] corporate structure. [00:51:26.532 – 00:51:36.612] Hank, on the other hand, had spent most of his professional life immersed in just such a large and hierarchical [00:51:36.612 – 00:51:38.312] business environment. [00:51:38.312 – 00:51:45.752] It was the place where his sales and leadership skills had been developed and perfected over the years. [00:51:45.752 – 00:51:55.772] In his last job with Standard O. of New Jersey, P. had been an assistant wholesale manager being paid the handsome

[00:51:55.772 – 00:51:58.732] salary of $40,000 a year. [00:51:58.732 – 00:52:09.112] In this important and lucrative position, he was responsible for the performance of 6,600 salesmen servicing 28,000 [00:52:09.112 – 00:52:14.612] dealers, whose sales he then had to justify to his own manager. [00:52:14.612 – 00:52:23.172] Who then was more qualified than P. to write a chapter entitled To E.? [00:52:23.172 – 00:52:33.172] Not only was Hank's business experience far superior to anyone else then sober in AA, he had also proven [00:52:33.172 – 00:52:40.572] to be one of the most successful members in delivering the message of recovery to businessmen who drank too much. [00:52:40.572 – 00:52:50.732] In late September, Bill wrote to Frank A. reporting that P. was then busy with fundraising and publicity

[00:52:50.732 – 00:53:00.452] efforts, but also doing a great deal in the general work where he is most effective with businessmen of his own type. [00:53:00.452 – 00:53:10.472] In M., where he lives, three men of his description came to his attention only [00:53:10.472 – 00:53:12.812] yesterday through his family physician. [00:53:12.812 – 00:53:17.062] In every respect, Hank was the group's most expe- [00:53:17.264 – 00:53:22.764] Experienced and competent member when dealing with business and businessmen. [00:53:22.764 – 00:53:32.804] In addition, Bill must have been relieved to admit that there was at least one chapter of the book where he could defer to [00:53:32.804 – 00:53:33.243] Hank.

[00:53:33.243 – 00:53:43.004] Here was perhaps the best way to ease some of the constant pressure coming from P. about what was being written. [00:53:43.004 – 00:53:46.904] Let him do some of his own writing for the book. [00:53:46.904 – 00:53:57.084] Hank was anxious to make a significant contribution, and to employers was the logical place for Bill to give him [00:53:57.084 – 00:53:59.544] free rein to do just that. [00:53:59.544 – 00:54:10.084] Finally, this was to be Hank's chapter because of his passionate commitment to the pet theory that large corporations [00:54:10.084 – 00:54:14.924] would be more receptive to their new solution than anyone else. [00:54:14.924 – 00:54:25.024] P. fervently believed that whatever time and money a company spent to get a talented employee sober,

[00:54:25.024 – 00:54:33.264] that investment would be generously returned to them as soon as the recovered man was back on the job. [00:54:33.264 – 00:54:43.124] Bill did an excellent job of describing Hank's logic on this topic in an August 1938 letter. [00:54:43.124 – 00:54:53.244] "We have found that the type of alcoholic who recovers most readily is the man who has begun to get some place in business, [00:54:53.244 – 00:54:56.384] and then is cut down by this hellish sickness. [00:54:56.384 – 00:55:06.534] It is logical, therefore, for us to approach the large corporation in this country as a source of the proposed prospect [00:55:06.534 – 00:55:07.404] for our group. [00:55:07.404 – 00:55:15.004] They spend thousands in training a man, and then are obliged to toss him onto the scrap heap.

[00:55:15.004 – 00:55:18.844] Sometimes he is very hard to replace. [00:55:18.844 – 00:55:29.084] Our experience tells us that just before or just after they have tossed him onto the scrap heap, we could set maybe [00:55:29.084 – 00:55:37.624] as high as 50% of those fellows back in the ring with a punch such as they never had before. [00:55:37.624 – 00:55:48.004] Hence, for a co- corporation or its officers personally to foster this sort of effort would not only be humanitarian, [00:55:48.004 – 00:55:58.284] it should be good for business." The key point here, and in the chapter Hank would write, [00:55:58.284 – 00:56:06.664] is that in addition to any altruistic considerations, it just made good business sense to invest in a man's recovery. [00:56:06.664 – 00:56:17.004] Rather than firing this once valuable employee as an incorrigible drunk and an irredeemable liability,

[00:56:17.064 – 00:56:26.074] wouldn't it make better sense for the company to help him turn his life around and once again become a valuable asset to the corporation? [00:56:26.074 – 00:56:36.144] Hank's early June outline for the book had captured the essence of this and provided a framework for what would be covered in his [00:56:36.144 – 00:56:36.694] chapter. [00:56:36.694 – 00:56:46.964] Herein, employers will be given the new view of alcoholism as it affect their [00:56:46.964 – 00:56:47.644] interests. [00:56:47.644 – 00:56:57.904] Many specific suggestions will be made as to how, in the best interest of all, the employer [00:56:57.904 – 00:57:03.423] may handle the myriad situations which are so baffling to him at present.

[00:57:03.423 – 00:57:07.144] Hank's chapter number 22. [00:57:07.144 – 00:57:14.824] That outline suggestion would prove the basic content of the chapter. [00:57:14.824 – 00:57:23.584] But that still left Bill with one glaring problem: Hank's atrocious writing style. [00:57:23.584 – 00:57:33.643] Given the rather staid and conservative target audience for this chapter, P. would not be experimenting with any [00:57:33.643 – 00:57:43.804] of the more flamboyant techniques he had so recently learned in school, such as the stream of consciousness presentation he had already [00:57:43.804 – 00:57:46.544] used when writing his own story for the book. [00:57:46.544 – 00:57:56.704] But then Hank's normal prose style could be quite as torturous as even this more extravagant attempt at

[00:57:56.704 – 00:57:57.824] creative writing. [00:57:57.824 – 00:58:08.244] Bill was aware of this, and he resolved the problem by claiming the right to edit Hank's chapter as he saw fit, [00:58:08.244 – 00:58:17.564] noting, as he had once told Lois, that he thought the book, except for the stories, should all be written in the same style. [00:58:17.564 – 00:58:24.044] It was difficult to argue with this insistence on the need for uniformity. [00:58:24.044 – 00:58:32.984] Certainly, readers should not be forced to make adjustments to different writing styles as each new chapter unfolded. [00:58:32.984 – 00:58:36.694] Ruth H. provides striking testi- [00:58:36.976 – 00:58:44.576] Testimony to Bill's reservation about Hank's writing in something she wrote to W. in late 1955.

[00:58:44.576 – 00:58:54.896] They had been exchanging letters about A's early history, and in one of them she told Bill she had just remembered the fact that [00:58:54.896 – 00:59:05.136] Hank wrote the first draft of the chapter, To E., but that you corrected it and, in a sense, rewrote it in your own [00:59:05.136 – 00:59:05.656] words. [00:59:05.656 – 00:59:15.816] Whatever H. might write, Bill was committed to making sure it blended in seamlessly with all of the other [00:59:15.816 – 00:59:16.456] chapters. [00:59:16.456 – 00:59:18.236] This presence… [00:59:18.236 – 00:59:29.136] This presents the reader of To E., as printed in the Multilith copy, with a challenging problem:

[00:59:29.136 – 00:59:39.556] how to tell which parts should be ascribed to Hank P.'s original draft versus those that could be credited to Bill W.'s [00:59:39.556 – 00:59:40.956] later rewrite. [00:59:40.956 – 00:59:44.686] Original outline abandoned. [00:59:44.686 – 00:59:55.036] Using the same technique he had employed for To W., Bill opens To E. with an in- [00:59:55.036 – 00:59:59.616] introductory statement presenting the author of the chapter to the reader. [00:59:59.616 – 01:00:08.396] "One of our friends, whose gripping story you have read, has spent much of his life in the world of big business. [01:00:08.396 – 01:00:11.796] He has hired and fired hundreds of men.

[01:00:11.796 – 01:00:16.276] He knows the alcoholic as the employer sees him. [01:00:16.276 – 01:00:27.436] His present views ought to prove exceptionally useful to businessmen everywhere, but let him tell you." Curious [01:00:27.436 – 01:00:34.896] here is the fact that Bill informs the reader he has already read the personal story of the man writing To E.. [01:00:34.896 – 01:00:45.056] In other words, whenever Bill, whenever W. wrote this introduction, he was still under the impression that they would be following [01:00:45.056 – 01:00:52.996] the sequence and organizational format called for in P.'s original outline for the book. [01:00:52.996 – 01:00:59.056] That is, with the personal stories preceding all but one of the general chapters. [01:00:59.056 – 01:01:06.936] Unfortunately, there's no further evidence to indicate when this particular sentence may have been written.

[01:01:06.936 – 01:01:17.476] It can only be said that by late December or early January, when the typescript of the book was submitted to the editor, Tom U., [01:01:17.476 – 01:01:27.516] this format had been abandoned, with all the personal stories, including W.'s, now appearing after the general [01:01:27.516 – 01:01:28.136] chapters. [01:01:28.136 – 01:01:38.256] Surprisingly, this bit of misinformation about having already read Hank's story, actually nothing more than a [01:01:38.256 – 01:01:48.276] typo at this point, managed to survive ongoing edits and made its way into the Multilith copy, being corrected only at [01:01:48.276 – 01:01:51.596] the last minute just before the printing of the book. [01:01:51.596 – 01:02:01.876] It would be interesting, and perhaps even important, to know exactly when and how this decision to abandon

[01:02:01.876 – 01:02:12.136] Hank's original format for the book was made, but unfortunately there's no mention of that decision in any of the contemporary documents, [01:02:12.136 – 01:02:16.756] nor in any of the later writings or comments by the participants. [01:02:16.756 – 01:02:18.976] Period. [01:02:18.976 – 01:02:21.216] Is that as far as we're going today? [01:02:21.216 – 01:02:28.376] Keep, keep going, Ezra. [01:02:28.376 – 01:02:29.216] We'll read the chapter. [01:02:29.216 – 01:02:29.676] Okay.

[01:02:29.676 – 01:02:30.956] Writing the chapter. [01:02:30.956 – 01:02:41.076] Following a double space, following a double space to indicate a new writer, Hank P. [01:02:41.076 – 01:02:45.936] opens the chapter by immediately establishing his business credentials. [01:02:45.936 – 01:02:56.436] "I was at one time assistant manager of a corporation department employing 6,600 men." He then immediately proceeds [01:02:56.436 – 01:03:03.356] to tell the dramatic stories of three men he fired for drinking, each of whom committed suicide. [01:03:03.356 – 01:03:12.896] One jumped from a hotel window, another put a shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger, the third hung himself in the family woodshed. [01:03:12.896 – 01:03:22.896] This fate, Hank says, may well have been his own if it were not for the intervention of an understanding person who gave him

[01:03:22.896 – 01:03:27.676] a new perspective on alcoholism and thereby saved his life. [01:03:27.676 – 01:03:38.356] Without even pausing to mourn this tragic loss of human life, and the profound effects it must have had on these three men's families, [01:03:38.356 – 01:03:44.836] this was obviously not going to be a chapter that pandered to the emotions. [01:03:44.836 – 01:03:51.316] P. immediately leaps into a bold outline of his basic argument. [01:03:51.316 – 01:03:56.526] "My downfall cost the business community unknown thousands-" [01:03:57.168 – 01:04:02.488] of dollars, for it takes real money to train a man for an executive position. [01:04:02.488 – 01:04:06.448] This kind of waste goes on unabated.

[01:04:06.448 – 01:04:16.648] Our business fabric is shot through with it, and nothing will stop it but better understanding all around. [01:04:16.648 – 01:04:24.848] Hank goes on to say how difficult it can be for the employer to develop a correct understanding of the alcoholic. [01:04:24.848 – 01:04:35.248] He notes that despite the fact that nearly every modern employer feels a moral responsibility for the wellbeing [01:04:35.248 – 01:04:45.268] of his health and would like to do the best he can for all his employees, misunderstandings about the true nature of the problem [01:04:45.268 – 01:04:51.348] all too often get in the way when it comes to dealing with men who are plagued by drink. [01:04:51.348 – 01:05:01.388] Rather than just explaining this difficulty, Hank dramatically demonstrates it with the real-life [01:05:01.388 – 01:05:08.428] story of one of his friends, a bank executive who has struggled to deal with an alcoholic coworker.

[01:05:08.428 – 01:05:18.848] Hearing about his friend's situation, P. spent two hours talking with him about alcoholism, the malady. [01:05:18.848 – 01:05:29.008] "I described the symptoms and supported my statements with plenty of evidence, all to no avail." His business friend was sure the man [01:05:29.008 – 01:05:39.148] was done drinking because he had recently taken a cure, looks fine, and to clinch the matter, the board of directors told him this was [01:05:39.148 – 01:05:40.748] his last chance. [01:05:40.748 – 01:05:51.787] P. scoffed at this naive optimism, claiming that unless the man was brought into contact with some of our alcoholic [01:05:51.787 – 01:06:01.408] crowd, or at least given a chance to hear his story, he would soon be headed for a bigger bust than ever. [01:06:01.408 – 01:06:11.708] But this advice was rejected out of hand, and Hank realized that despite his best efforts during his two-hour conversation,

[01:06:11.708 – 01:06:15.188] my banking acquaintance had missed the point entirely. [01:06:15.188 – 01:06:24.528] "The result," he said, "was exactly as he had predicted." Presently, the man did slip and of course was fired. [01:06:24.528 – 01:06:34.918] The upside of the story only came after AA members contacted the man following his dismal, and [01:06:34.918 – 01:06:37.808] he accepted our principles and procedure. [01:06:37.808 – 01:06:45.208] Because of his willingness to change, he now found himself on the high road to recovery. [01:06:45.208 – 01:06:54.568] But the man had been fired rather than being offered this simple new solution. [01:06:54.568 – 01:06:58.768] Hank was not just frustrated, he was indignant.

[01:06:58.768 – 01:07:09.348] How could his friend, an accomplished and intelligent businessman, be so blind to his arguments and personal testimony [01:07:09.348 – 01:07:15.108] about the subtlety and power of this disease? [01:07:15.108 – 01:07:25.388] To me, this incident illustrates lack of understanding and knowledge of the part of employees, on the part of em- of employers. [01:07:25.388 – 01:07:35.808] Lack of understanding as to what really ails the alcoholic, and lack of knowledge as to what part employers might profitably [01:07:35.808 – 01:07:39.588] take in salvaging their sick employees. [01:07:39.588 – 01:07:49.828] Addressing the first point, how an employer can ever come to understand what really ails the alcoholic, P. [01:07:49.828 – 01:07:56.648] insists it must begin with the employer disregarding absolutely everything he knows about drinking.

[01:07:56.648 – 01:08:04.268] Whether you are a hard drinker, a moderate drinker, or a teetotaler, to you liquor is no real problem. [01:08:04.268 – 01:08:12.248] You cannot see why it should be to anyone else, save for the spineless or the stupid. [01:08:12.248 – 01:08:19.808] But Hank stresses that this kind of attitude is useless when dealing with an alcoholic. [01:08:19.808 – 01:08:30.208] The employer must constantly fight against his ingrained annoyance that the alcoholic could be so weak, stupid, [01:08:30.208 – 01:08:32.048] and irresponsible. [01:08:32.048 – 01:08:38.148] To do so is a grave and often fatal misunderstanding of the problem. [01:08:38.148 – 01:08:48.368] Instead, Hank says, "You must remember that your employee is very ill and seldom

[01:08:48.368 – 01:08:58.848] as weak and irresponsible as he appears to you." The second point, understanding what employers can do to help their drinking employees, [01:08:58.848 – 01:09:00.688] is more complicated. [01:09:00.688 – 01:09:11.268] Having readily acknowledged his ignorance of alcoholism, the employer must then decide whether or not the drunken employee [01:09:11.268 – 01:09:12.408] is worth saving. [01:09:12.408 – 01:09:16.298] On this issue, Hank thinks there can be li- [01:09:16.412 – 01:09:17.152] Little question. [01:09:17.152 – 01:09:20.772] Take a look at the alcoholic in your organization.

[01:09:20.772 – 01:09:26.112] Is he not usually brilliant, fast-thinking, imaginative, and likable? [01:09:26.112 – 01:09:32.192] When sober, does he not work hard and have a knack for getting things done? [01:09:32.192 – 01:09:40.692] The implication is that, of course, it makes sense to rehabilitate and save such a valuable asset. [01:09:40.692 – 01:09:50.752] Once this decision is made, whether the reason be humanitarian or business or both, then you will wish [01:09:50.752 – 01:09:52.232] to know what to do. [01:09:52.232 – 01:10:03.192] As a first step in that process, Hank contends that the employer must be willing to reconsider his existing misapprehensions [01:10:03.192 – 01:10:13.752] to the point where he can concede that this employee is ill, but still valuable to the company, and as such,

[01:10:13.752 – 01:10:18.472] worth forgiving what he has done in the past. [01:10:18.472 – 01:10:28.632] He asks the employer to consider whether or not he can shelve the resentment you may hold because of his past absurdities. [01:10:28.632 – 01:10:38.832] Can you fully appreciate that the man has been a victim of crooked thinking directly caused by the action of alcohol [01:10:38.832 – 01:10:39.672] on his brain? [01:10:39.672 – 01:10:49.792] This last observation is followed by some extremely dubious medical testimony, even for 1938, about [01:10:49.792 – 01:10:59.852] how drinking can increase the pressure of the spinal fluid, thereby creating a fevered brain, which is the cause of the alcoholic's [01:10:59.852 – 01:11:01.252] irrational actions.

[01:11:01.252 – 01:11:11.552] Whatever nonsensical scrapes an employer may discover in an alcoholic's past behavior, and there may be some [01:11:11.552 – 01:11:20.272] pretty messy ones, he must accept these as the result of alcohol's abnormal impact on his brain. [01:11:20.272 – 01:11:27.492] The drinking employee needs understanding and forgiveness, not censure. [01:11:27.492 – 01:11:37.692] Hank then warns the employer about the man who really does not want to stop, but who is more than willing to take advantage of your attempt [01:11:37.692 – 01:11:41.552] to understand him, uh, understand and help. [01:11:41.552 – 01:11:50.032] "If you find yourself with such an employee," he says, "you may as well discharge him, and the sooner the better. [01:11:50.032 – 01:11:55.192] But these," he says, "tend to be the exceptions.

[01:11:55.192 – 01:12:02.112] There are many men who want to stop right now, and with them you can go far. [01:12:02.112 – 01:12:12.132] If you make a start, you should be prepared to go to the limit, not in the sense that any great expense or trouble is to [01:12:12.132 – 01:12:23.832] be expected, but rather in the matter of your own attitude, your understanding, treatment of the case." Once [01:12:23.832 – 01:12:29.772] again, the employee's need for proper understanding is pointed out as the critical element. [01:12:29.772 – 01:12:39.812] Hank now begins to lay out step-by-step directions similar to those found in working with others for how to approach a [01:12:39.812 – 01:12:41.112] drinking employee. [01:12:41.112 – 01:12:45.412] First, qualify your s- your prospect.

[01:12:45.412 – 01:12:50.712] Does he really want to stop drinking, and will he go to any extreme to do so? [01:12:50.712 – 01:13:00.852] P. gives detailed instructions here on difficult questions that must be asked of the alcoholic employee, [01:13:00.852 – 01:13:10.972] and he offers explicit warnings about the tactic, tactics and strategies that are often used by lying or insincere [01:13:10.972 – 01:13:13.652] drinkers when challenged in this way. [01:13:13.652 – 01:13:19.472] Once the employer is convinced the man is sincere, he should tell him that. [01:13:19.472 – 01:13:25.392] A certain amount of physical treatment is desirable, even imperative. [01:13:25.392 – 01:13:35.512] If he accepts this definite course of action, offer to advance the cost of

[01:13:35.512 – 01:13:42.752] treatment if necessary, but make it plain that any expense will later be deducted from his pay. [01:13:42.752 – 01:13:45.872] Make him fully responsible. [01:13:45.872 – 01:13:48.032] It is much better for him. [01:13:48.032 – 01:13:56.532] Finally, if he accepts the proposal, point out to him that physical treatment is but a small part of the picture. [01:13:56.532 – 01:14:04.692] Though you are providing him with the best possible medical attention, he should understand that he must undergo a change of heart. [01:14:04.692 – 01:14:10.612] To get over drinking will require a transformation of thought and attitude. [01:14:10.612 – 01:14:19.632] He must place recovery above everything, even home and business, for without recovery, he will lose both.

[01:14:19.632 – 01:14:24.152] Hank follows this bit of ambitious advice. [01:14:24.152 – 01:14:34.252] It is quite frankly hard to imagine an employer credibly informing an employee that he must undergo a change [01:14:34.252 – 01:14:35.862] of heart and a trans- [01:14:36.124 – 01:14:41.484] formation of thought and attitude based on nothing more than a reading of this book. [01:14:41.484 – 01:14:51.544] With his worries that the employer's own belief system may be the greatest stumbling block to the drunken employee ever [01:14:51.544 – 01:15:01.784] hearing about this new solution, he explicitly cautions the employer against any prejudices he might have against [01:15:01.784 – 01:15:12.224] AA's spiritual approach and the professed need for a drinking employee to acquire a spiritual experience to successfully stop drinking.

[01:15:12.224 – 01:15:22.404] "After all," Hank says as he again addresses the employer directly, "you are looking for results rather [01:15:22.404 – 01:15:32.844] than method, methods, and you will surely agree that it may be better to withhold any criticism you may have of our method [01:15:32.844 – 01:15:42.864] until you see whether it works." In short, don't let your own beliefs prejudice you or your employee against [01:15:42.864 – 01:15:48.264] the essential spiritual elements in AA's program of recovery. [01:15:48.264 – 01:15:58.324] Continuing with his advice for what part employers might profitably take in salvaging their sick [01:15:58.324 – 01:16:08.584] employees, Hank suggests that once the newly sober man returns to work, the boss call him in [01:16:08.584 – 01:16:17.504] and ask what happened, questioning him about his recovery and what he thinks he must do in order to preserve it.

[01:16:17.504 – 01:16:27.974] This invitation to an open conversation may result in the man admitting to shocking things, [01:16:27.974 – 01:16:37.404] such as the padding of his expense account or his earlier plan to steal the company's best client and take them with him to another job. [01:16:37.404 – 01:16:47.524] "Revelations such as these are fairly normal," P. says, "once a man has accepted our solution, [01:16:47.524 – 01:16:58.084] which, as you know, demands rigorous honesty." However distressing these confessions may be, Hank advises [01:16:58.084 – 01:17:05.224] the employer to charge this off as you would a bad account and start afresh with him. [01:17:05.224 – 01:17:15.354] He also warns that problems with the man's home situation and with office politics once he is back on the job should [01:17:15.354 – 01:17:20.844] also be expected and dealt with as quickly and fairly as possible.

[01:17:20.844 – 01:17:30.884] P. contends that both of these call for a candor and understanding on the part of the employer, for the greatest enemies of the [01:17:30.884 – 01:17:39.924] alcoholic are resentment, jealousy, envy, frustration, and fear. [01:17:39.924 – 01:17:49.984] The employer should avoid situations that generate these kind of feelings at all cost, and anything he can do to [01:17:49.984 – 01:17:59.564] reduce tensions will result in the newly sober employee professing undying loyalty to the manager and to his company. [01:17:59.564 – 01:18:07.044] Finally, Hank points out that the former alcoholics may now become a workaholic. [01:18:07.044 – 01:18:12.744] If so, don't let him work 16 hours a day just because he wants to. [01:18:12.744 – 01:18:15.984] Encourage him to play once in a while.

[01:18:15.984 – 01:18:19.604] Make it possible for, possible for him to do so. [01:18:19.604 – 01:18:29.864] And if he wants to work with other alcoholics in need of his help, even during business hours, don't begrudge him a reasonable amount of time. [01:18:29.864 – 01:18:34.924] This work is necessary to maintain his sobriety. [01:18:34.924 – 01:18:45.064] Hank follows this with three catchall paragraphs regarding what to expect from the man who has been sober for just a few [01:18:45.064 – 01:18:45.464] months. [01:18:45.464 – 01:18:54.444] "First," he says, "you may want to include him in conversations with other problem drinkers in your organization. [01:18:54.444 – 01:19:04.584] He may be very helpful to you in these situations, even when dealing with more senior men." "Second,

[01:19:04.584 – 01:19:14.644] it is critical that you completely trust this employee and not, for instance, become suspicious if he should call in sick one day, nor [01:19:14.644 – 01:19:24.724] should you worry about protecting him from any drinking situations that may normally arise in the course of his job." "Finally, if he [01:19:24.724 – 01:19:33.334] does have a slip," P. says, "you must do your best to evaluate his sincerity about staying sober. [01:19:33.334 – 01:19:40.584] If you are sure he doesn't mean business, there's no doubt you should discharge him. [01:19:40.584 – 01:19:50.804] If, on the contrary, you are sure he is doing his utmost, you may wish to give him another chance." Hank [01:19:50.804 – 01:19:55.554] then spends three paragraphs expounding his theories about how the work of the re- [01:19:56.256 – 01:20:01.176] Of recovery should be fruitfully pursued within a large corporation.

[01:20:01.176 – 01:20:11.416] He proposes that junior executives, who are often put in compromising positions because of their coworkers' drinking, be given the book [01:20:11.416 – 01:20:12.016] to read. [01:20:12.016 – 01:20:22.196] Once this has provided them with a sufficient understanding of alcoholism, they should then feel free [01:20:22.196 – 01:20:32.136] to go to their drinking friends within the company and say something like this, "Look here, Ed, do you wanna stop drinking or not? [01:20:32.136 – 01:20:36.596] You're putting me in a spot every time you get drunk. [01:20:36.596 – 01:20:42.296] It isn't, it isn't fair to me or the firm. [01:20:42.296 – 01:20:47.036] I have been learning something about alcoholism.

[01:20:47.036 – 01:20:51.196] If you are an alcoholic, you're a mighty sick man. [01:20:51.196 – 01:20:53.076] You act like one. [01:20:53.076 – 01:20:57.276] The firm wants to help you get over it, if you're interested. [01:20:57.276 – 01:21:02.276] There is a way out, and I hope you have sense enough to try it. [01:21:02.276 – 01:21:10.236] If you do, your past will be forgotten, and the fact that you went away for treatment will not be mentioned. [01:21:10.236 – 01:21:20.536] But if you cannot or will not stop drinking, I think you ought to resign." The possibility that this scenario [01:21:20.536 – 01:21:31.016] might actually work to the company's benefit or to the junior executive's seems remote at best, and it is hard to believe P.

[01:21:31.016 – 01:21:33.276] was ever seriously committed to it. [01:21:33.276 – 01:21:43.296] But somehow the idea of distributing the book and then encouraging conversations similar to this made [01:21:43.296 – 01:21:53.476] perfect sense to him, and he confidently advocated that large companies adopt it as the way to ferret out and then reclaim [01:21:53.476 – 01:21:55.996] the alcoholics within their organization. [01:21:55.996 – 01:21:59.516] "It boils right down to this," Hank says. [01:21:59.516 – 01:22:03.896] "No man should be fired just because he is an alcoholic. [01:22:03.896 – 01:22:08.776] If he wants to stop, he should be afforded a real chance.

[01:22:08.776 – 01:22:15.336] If he cannot or does not want to stop, he should usually be discharged. [01:22:15.336 – 01:22:25.856] The exceptions are few." In case the point has been somehow missed, P. once again highlights [01:22:25.856 – 01:22:29.316] the financial benefits of addressing this problem. [01:22:29.316 – 01:22:33.956] "We don't expect you to become a missionary," he tells the employer. [01:22:33.956 – 01:22:37.296] "Being a businessman is enough these days. [01:22:37.296 – 01:22:47.376] But we can sensibly urge that you stop this waste and give your worthwhile man a chance." Doing so is just [01:22:47.376 – 01:22:49.316] a good business decision.

[01:22:49.316 – 01:22:59.356] His final caution is against being one of those men who prefers to deny the problem rather than dealing with it, and he offers the [01:22:59.356 – 01:23:09.356] story of a vice president of a large industrial concern who claimed confidently that, "We don't have any alcohol problem." Hank scoffs [01:23:09.356 – 01:23:18.596] at this and categorically states this executive might be shocked if he knew how much alcoholism cost his organization a year. [01:23:18.596 – 01:23:28.596] Hank advises the employer that if he is one of those who is ignorant or in denial about the extent of [01:23:28.596 – 01:23:34.596] the alcohol problem within the company, "You might well take another look down the line. [01:23:34.596 – 01:23:45.136] You may make some interesting discoveries." Since the reader is a businessman, P. presumes he would appreciate [01:23:45.136 – 01:23:46.776] a summary of this chapter.

[01:23:46.776 – 01:23:51.056] So he offers the following 10 concise steps. [01:23:51.056 – 01:23:55.696] One, acquaint yourself with the nature of alcoholism. [01:23:55.696 – 01:24:01.976] Two, be prepared to discount and forget your man's pa- past. [01:24:01.976 – 01:24:09.856] Three, confidentially offer him medical treatment and cooperation, provided you think he wants to stop. [01:24:09.856 – 01:24:18.676] Four, have the alcohol thoroughly removed from his system, and give him a suitable chance to recover physically. [01:24:18.676 – 01:24:25.576] Five, have the doctor in attendance present him with this book, but don't cram it down his throat. [01:24:25.576 – 01:24:35.776] Six, have a frank talk with him when he gets back from his treatment, assuring him of your full support,

[01:24:35.776 – 01:24:45.616] encouraging him to say anything he wishes about himself, and making it clear the past will not be held against him. [01:24:45.616 – 01:24:52.336] Seven, ask him to place recovery from alcoholism ahead of all else. [01:24:52.336 – 01:24:55.496] Eight, don't let him overwork. [01:24:55.496 – 01:25:01.656] Nine, protect him, when justified, from malicious gossip. [01:25:01.656 – 01:25:10.036] 10, if after you have shot the works he will not stop, then let him go. [01:25:10.036 – 01:25:15.466] As a final testimony to the effectiveness of this approach, Hank claims- [01:25:15.548 – 01:25:20.108] Closes as he opened with a bit of his own experience.

[01:25:20.108 – 01:25:24.088] "Today, I own a little company. [01:25:24.088 – 01:25:30.468] There are two alcoholic employees who produce as much as five normal salesmen. [01:25:30.468 – 01:25:31.867] But why not? [01:25:31.867 – 01:25:37.168] They have a better way of life, and they have been saved from a living death. [01:25:37.168 – 01:25:43.348] I have enjoyed every moment spent in getting them straightened out. [01:25:43.348 – 01:25:45.798] You, Mr. [01:25:45.798 – 01:25:53.528] Employer, may have the same experience." Do I continue?

[01:25:53.528 – 01:25:58.408] Oh, I do. [01:25:58.408 – 01:26:01.888] God is omitted from the text. [01:26:01.888 – 01:26:10.368] There are a few notable things in this chapter that distinguish it from those who- those W. had already written. [01:26:10.368 – 01:26:20.408] Most prominent is the complete omission of the word "God" from the text, a concrete example of the rule Hank had been [01:26:20.408 – 01:26:24.088] urging on Bill for the past several months. [01:26:24.088 – 01:26:31.878] In that same vein, the word "spiritual" appears only twice in this version of the chapter. [01:26:31.878 – 01:26:42.388] Interestingly, both were deleted before the Big Book went to press, which may well imply they had been added by W.

[01:26:42.388 – 01:26:51.248] and then later removed by P. returning to the text to the purity he advocated with such consistency. [01:26:51.248 – 01:27:01.668] More than that, it would have been easy to justify these two deletions since they occur in these sentences that place unusual [01:27:01.668 – 01:27:11.088] distinctly, and distinctly unscientific responsibilities upon physician attending the alcoholic. [01:27:11.088 – 01:27:14.848] The doctor should approve a spiritual approach. [01:27:14.848 – 01:27:23.808] And he b- and besides, he ought to tell the patient the truth about his condition, whatever that happens to be. [01:27:23.808 – 01:27:28.628] The doctor should encourage him to acquire spiritual experience. [01:27:28.628 – 01:27:36.718] This sounds suspiciously like something W. might have added in the belief that the group's experience with Dr.

[01:27:36.718 – 01:27:47.108] S., who enthusiastically supported the religious approach offered by AA, would prove to be the model for medical men across [01:27:47.108 – 01:27:47.748] the country. [01:27:47.748 – 01:27:57.208] That belief was optimistic in the extreme, and not even true among doctors who actually took the time to read the book. [01:27:57.208 – 01:28:03.648] So the deletion of these lines proved to be an excellent editorial decision. [01:28:03.648 – 01:28:14.108] But beyond the expectation that doctors everywhere would rarely t- would rally [01:28:14.108 – 01:28:21.948] to support AA's newfound spiritual solution, it seems like a strange and unlikely way to handle the situation. [01:28:21.948 – 01:28:31.978] Why completely spare the employer the responsibility of recommending AA's explicitly religious solution while

[01:28:31.978 – 01:28:34.828] placing that task squarely on the doctor's shoulder? [01:28:34.828 – 01:28:45.188] Why wouldn't the employer be the most likely person to recommend a spiritual approach to his employee, emphasizing [01:28:45.188 – 01:28:52.828] the need to acquire a spiritual experience if he wants to stay permanently sober? [01:28:52.828 – 01:28:55.268] Why leave it to the doctor? [01:28:55.268 – 01:29:05.348] Outside of these two later deleted references, Hank is consistently, even willfully vague and ambiguous about [01:29:05.348 – 01:29:14.488] spiritual issues, completely sidestepping the religious elements so prominently found in all the other chapters. [01:29:14.488 – 01:29:24.748] Throughout, he barely makes passing mention of the spiritual aspects of the program of recovery,

[01:29:24.748 – 01:29:30.868] and then only in the most offhanded way, usually giving it a psychological spin. [01:29:30.868 – 01:29:41.448] P.'s most direct reference comes when he, when, as already noted, he advises the employer to tell his drinking employee [01:29:41.448 – 01:29:51.448] he should understand that he must undergo a change of heart, and that to get over drinking will require a transformation [01:29:51.448 – 01:29:52.128] of thought. [01:29:52.128 – 01:30:02.258] In keeping with his overall intentions, this suggests something much more like a psychological change than the religious [01:30:02.258 – 01:30:05.678] transformation called for in the rest of the book. [01:30:05.678 – 01:30:15.768] When at one point Hank does make explicit mention of the program's principles and procedures, he

[01:30:15.768 – 01:30:25.548] be- he presumes these need no further explanation because the employer has just read the book where all of that is explained in detail. [01:30:25.548 – 01:30:35.058] Beyond this, the only specific application of the program P. does mention is the need for the- [01:30:35.380 – 01:30:45.800] the newly sober man to be rigorously honest, which he says is demanded of all who have accepted [01:30:45.800 – 01:30:46.940] our solution. [01:30:46.940 – 01:30:52.040] Read the book, but don't mention it to the employee. [01:30:52.040 – 01:31:02.070] Hank simply assumes the employer has not only read the book, but completely understood and digested its spiritual content, [01:31:02.070 – 01:31:12.240] and then in spite of any possible reservations he might have, decided to try this new approach with one of his more troublesome

[01:31:12.240 – 01:31:13.289] employees. [01:31:13.289 – 01:31:23.380] This is a lot to presume given P.'s recent experience with his friend, the bank officer, who after two hours [01:31:23.380 – 01:31:33.400] of intense one-on-one conversation still failed to understand the nature of alcoholism and the necessity of pursuing [01:31:33.400 – 01:31:34.719] a spiritual solution. [01:31:34.719 – 01:31:45.020] Even more strangely, the employer was also advised to make no mention whatsoever of the book to, to the alcoholic. [01:31:45.020 – 01:31:55.040] This is in striking contrast to advice Bill offered in To W., where he repeatedly encouraged a wife to [01:31:55.040 – 01:32:05.440] bring the book to her husband's attention, even suggesting she read significant passages to him in an effort to engage his interest in the possibility

[01:32:05.440 – 01:32:06.200] of recovery. [01:32:06.200 – 01:32:14.000] Hank, on the other hand, warns against even mentioning the book's existence. [01:32:14.000 – 01:32:24.880] When first cross-examining the employee about his willingness to quit drinking, P. explicitly [01:32:24.880 – 01:32:30.100] tells the employee, "Not a word about the book, about this book. [01:32:30.100 – 01:32:40.400] Not a word." Similarly, the junior executive is advised that he need not and often should not show [01:32:40.400 – 01:32:44.179] the book to the alcoholic pers- prospect. [01:32:44.179 – 01:32:50.420] The only person be told the book is the…

[01:32:50.420 – 01:32:55.100] The only person to be told about the book is the doctor. [01:32:55.100 – 01:33:05.380] "I suggest you draw our book to the attention of the doctor who is to attend your patient during treatment." The doctor is then given the task [01:33:05.380 – 01:33:08.720] of introducing the book to the alcoholic patient. [01:33:08.720 – 01:33:18.740] "5: Have the doctor in attendance present him with this book, but don't cram it down his throat, and [01:33:18.740 – 01:33:28.980] of making sure it is read the moment the patient is able, while he is acutely depressed, if possible." Exactly [01:33:28.980 – 01:33:39.340] why the book would prove to be such an effective tool in the wife's hands and the doctor's, but not in those of the employer [01:33:39.340 – 01:33:43.120] or the junior executive is never explained.

[01:33:43.120 – 01:33:53.440] Perhaps P. felt that asking him to advocate for the book was just too far outside of the realm of good business practices, [01:33:53.440 – 01:34:03.760] where a request to do so would put him in the possibly uncomfortable position of having to endorse a book, and a particular [01:34:03.760 – 01:34:08.360] solution that contains such specific religious elements. [01:34:08.360 – 01:34:18.440] Despite whatever changes Bill W. may have made to this chapter, it still exhibits, especially as [01:34:18.440 – 01:34:28.840] it was printed in the Multilith copy, Hank P.'s tendency to write in a wandering fashion, straying off topic, [01:34:28.840 – 01:34:35.260] and with regularity and occasionally leaving out important connecting thoughts. [01:34:35.260 – 01:34:42.100] This makes any logical schematic outline of the chapter difficult.

[01:34:42.100 – 01:34:52.360] Some- something that can only be done by ignoring the more distracting digressions, for instance, the spinal [01:34:52.360 – 01:35:01.160] fluid theory, while simultaneously filling in the logical gaps which regularly appear in the chapter. [01:35:01.160 – 01:35:07.990] Then- Hey, you can take a breath 'cause we had a book, a footnote in there in that chapter. [01:35:07.990 – 01:35:09.220] Oh, yes. [01:35:09.220 – 01:35:10.720] I was on a roll. [01:35:10.720 – 01:35:11.300] Get a drink of water. [01:35:11.300 – 01:35:13.620] Look.

[01:35:13.620 – 01:35:14.880] All right. [01:35:14.880 – 01:35:15.400] Hank's idea… [01:35:15.400 – 01:35:23.280] Here's the footnote: Hank's idea of heightened spinal fluid pressure causing a fevered brain probably came from Dr. [01:35:23.280 – 01:35:33.280] S., who in his 1937 article, Reclamation of the Alcoholic, noted that when treating a new alcoholic patient, it was [01:35:33.280 – 01:35:38.260] necessary to relieve the pressure in the brain and spinal cord. [01:35:38.260 – 01:35:40.860] Uh, that's a quote from S.. [01:35:40.860 – 01:35:51.120] Reclamation of the Alcoholic, April 21st, 1937, in Medical R.: A National R. of Medicine and Surgery,

[01:35:51.120 – 01:35:54.790] the Medical J. and Record P. Company I.., New- [01:35:54.992 – 01:36:00.452] New York, volume 145, pages 321 to 324. [01:36:00.452 – 01:36:02.391] Okay. [01:36:02.391 – 01:36:03.442] Finish it up. [01:36:03.442 – 01:36:04.752] Thank you. [01:36:04.752 – 01:36:14.892] Given this overall lack of organization, it is natural to wonder about the remarkable 10-point [01:36:14.892 – 01:36:16.732] summary offered at the end.

[01:36:16.732 – 01:36:26.932] This list clearly, comprehensively, and concisely describes the messages, the message that can be difficult [01:36:26.932 – 01:36:31.552] to decipher from any casual reading of To E.. [01:36:31.552 – 01:36:34.992] Was this something Bill added to the text? [01:36:34.992 – 01:36:44.892] It certainly seems to have been put in by someone who thought it was necessary to bring a bit more clarity to this rambling chapter. [01:36:44.892 – 01:36:54.892] Whatever its origin, it was deemed redundant and unnecessary, mostly, most likely by Hank [01:36:54.892 – 01:36:56.332] P. himself. [01:36:56.332 – 01:37:04.572] And this excellent numbered summary was deleted in the weeks just before the book went to press.

[01:37:04.572 – 01:37:06.632] This is unfortunate. [01:37:06.632 – 01:37:16.672] If clear communication with the employee was the goal of this chapter, then the removal of that list was a decidedly poor editorial [01:37:16.672 – 01:37:17.451] decision. [01:37:17.451 – 01:37:28.092] However disjointed and disorganized To E. may have been when it was first written, [01:37:28.092 – 01:37:38.432] it shines like a positive beacon of clarity when compared to the next chapter Hank P. produced in the hope that Bill W. would include [01:37:38.432 – 01:37:40.012] it in the book. [01:37:40.012 – 01:37:41.692] Period.

[01:37:41.692 – 01:37:45.772] Thank you, Azell. [01:37:45.772 – 01:37:46.312] Well read. [01:37:46.312 – 01:37:49.902] Please unmute if you'd like to acknowledge Azell. [01:37:49.902 – 01:37:50.992] Thank you, everyone. [01:37:50.992 – 01:37:51.662] Thank you, Azell. [01:37:51.662 – 01:37:52.532] Azell, thank you very much. [01:37:52.532 – 01:37:53.342] Yeah, Azell.

[01:37:53.342 – 01:37:53.772] Thank you. [01:37:53.772 – 01:37:55.392] Thank you for the reading. [01:37:55.392 – 01:37:58.392] Thank you, Azell. [01:37:58.392 – 01:37:58.402] Thank you. [01:37:58.402 – 01:37:59.922] That was a good one. [01:37:59.922 – 01:37:59.942] Thank you. [01:37:59.942 – 01:38:00.332] Great job.

[01:38:00.332 – 01:38:02.332] Thank, thank you, everyone. [01:38:02.332 – 01:38:06.711] We're gonna go straight into Q&A 'cause we have, I think, Bill S., we've only got him for about 20 minutes today. [01:38:06.711 – 01:38:07.672] Thanks, Bill, for your time. [01:38:07.672 – 01:38:08.352] We appreciate it. [01:38:08.352 – 01:38:09.712] Over to you, Jim W.. [01:38:09.712 – 01:38:10.692] Yeah. [01:38:10.692 – 01:38:11.512] My name's Jim.

[01:38:11.512 – 01:38:12.332] I'm an alcoholic. [01:38:12.332 – 01:38:15.012] We do only have about 10 minutes or so. [01:38:15.012 – 01:38:15.432] 10 minutes. [01:38:15.432 – 01:38:23.192] So while you get ready to put your hands up, I'm gonna go to, uh, uh, Bill has his first question, is, uh, uh, how did… [01:38:23.192 – 01:38:31.532] Speak briefly about how you became aware of Janet B. and, uh, and her, uh, work in the book. [01:38:31.532 – 01:38:33.572] Thank you, Jim. [01:38:33.572 – 01:38:36.852] Uh, and yeah, that's, that's, that's a great question.

[01:38:36.852 – 01:38:42.172] Uh, nobody as far as I know had ever heard of Janet B. until about 15 years ago. [01:38:42.172 – 01:38:51.212] And, uh, and, uh, there was a, an archives, annual archive meeting down in Florida, and Michelle M., the, the GSO archivist was down there obviously. [01:38:51.212 – 01:39:01.332] And, and a, a niece or a grandniece, I, I never got the story exactly straight, of Janet B. came up to her and donated to the archive [01:39:01.332 – 01:39:08.652] these letters between Janet B. and Hank P., and even one letter between Janet B. and Bill W. about her editing the book. [01:39:08.652 – 01:39:17.312] So all of a sudden, this woman that up until that point I have not found any evidence of anybody ever hearing about this woman being the most… [01:39:17.312 – 01:39:20.741] I mean, you wouldn't believe the stuff that she was changing around in our book. [01:39:20.741 – 01:39:28.632] I mentioned last week she was, she was, she was taking There Is a Solution and whacking the first several paragraphs and moving them to the back and you know.

[01:39:28.632 – 01:39:31.132] So I, I mean, I was getting… [01:39:31.132 – 01:39:32.932] I, I, I was, it was, it was… [01:39:32.932 – 01:39:37.912] I got a couple of calls from, from Florida before, before Michelle even got back to New York, you know? [01:39:37.912 – 01:39:44.632] And I was, I was in the GSO office like two days after she got back from New York so that I could look at those letters and type them up. [01:39:44.632 – 01:39:54.092] I just noticed by the way that there's no, no end note citation for where to find those in the GSO archive, which I, I, I can't believe I didn't do that. [01:39:54.092 – 01:40:04.192] Uh, you know, it, it may be that when I first wrote this and when I first did this thing, uh, they hadn't assigned them a, a, a, you know, a, a, a box and a letter and all, [01:40:04.192 – 01:40:06.492] you know, the numbers and all of that stuff at the time.

[01:40:06.492 – 01:40:06.872] Mm-hmm. [01:40:06.872 – 01:40:16.072] Uh, but I should probably double back and try and make a correction to that going forward, although I'm gonna make my publisher crazy if I send her one more, one more thing for this next coming up. [01:40:16.072 – 01:40:20.672] All right, uh, thank you. [01:40:20.672 – 01:40:30.732] Uh, just, uh, another, uh, perspective, uh, this is also from Penny, $40,000 that's mentioned on page 392, $40,000 in [01:40:30.732 – 01:40:35.992] 1934 is a l- is $858,000 today. [01:40:35.992 – 01:40:38.212] So you know. [01:40:38.212 – 01:40:42.612] Um, real quickly again, please keep it quick and quick Q&A.

[01:40:42.612 – 01:40:45.472] Paula from London, you have a question. [01:40:45.472 – 01:40:55.552] Paula could be making [01:40:55.552 – 01:40:56.732] some teas in London. [01:40:56.732 – 01:40:57.372] Go on. [01:40:57.372 – 01:40:58.552] Anyone else, Jim? [01:40:58.552 – 01:41:00.332] Anyone else have a… [01:41:00.332 – 01:41:04.682] No one else have a hand up?

[01:41:04.682 – 01:41:10.392] Put your hand up, uh, on the participants page if you, uh, would like to ask a question. [01:41:10.392 – 01:41:14.462] Well, here we thought we- Well, I, I, I just, I just want- [01:41:14.884 – 01:41:15.294] I want to, I want to comment. [01:41:15.294 – 01:41:21.804] I, it's so, so much fun for me sometimes to be listening to this stuff as it's being read because I haven't read this text in a while. [01:41:21.804 – 01:41:25.544] You know, I mean, we did this, what, nine months ago maybe in this group. [01:41:25.544 – 01:41:28.564] And, uh, I can re- I would just… [01:41:28.564 – 01:41:39.464] As you were reading all this stuff about who Tom Y. was and who Janet B. was, and how all these weird connections that I found, but none of them, none of them solid

[01:41:39.464 – 01:41:49.864] enough to say, "This is where Hank P.'s got this guy from," and, "This is where Hank P.'s got this woman from." But when I found out that she was, she worked for [01:41:49.864 – 01:41:50.484] Tarbell. [01:41:50.484 – 01:41:55.984] I mean, I mean, that woman was, that woman was the most vicious attacker of John D. [01:41:55.984 – 01:41:58.384] R. Sr ever. [01:41:58.384 – 01:42:00.164] And I mean, a lot of people didn't like John D. [01:42:00.164 – 01:42:03.244] R. Sr., were attacking him throughout the, his whole life. [01:42:03.244 – 01:42:04.544] He was, he was really…

[01:42:04.544 – 01:42:08.584] You know, there was no regulation on, on American capitalism in the late 1800s. [01:42:08.584 – 01:42:15.904] And, and, uh, it was just accepted, accepted practice that you just crushed, you just crushed your competition. [01:42:15.904 – 01:42:16.204] You know? [01:42:16.204 – 01:42:19.944] You just drove people into the ground, and he was a master of that. [01:42:19.944 – 01:42:24.624] And this woman, this woman really, she really, really destroyed his reputation. [01:42:24.624 – 01:42:29.204] And, um, so anyhow, it was, uh, it was really… [01:42:29.204 – 01:42:33.044] As I was reading that, I was thinking, "God, I just…" I was going down all these byways.

[01:42:33.044 – 01:42:35.094] I'm reading Tarbell's- … [01:42:35.094 – 01:42:38.644] Tarbell's letters in this archive out in Ohio, and I was… [01:42:38.644 – 01:42:39.944] It was, I was… [01:42:39.944 – 01:42:42.264] I, I can't say it was… [01:42:42.264 – 01:42:43.434] It was fun. [01:42:43.434 – 01:42:48.384] It's fun when you find stuff that informs the story that you're trying to inform. [01:42:48.384 – 01:42:54.184] But I had to wade through just tons and tons and tons of stuff that had nothing to do with the story involved here.

[01:42:54.184 – 01:43:01.784] So, uh, I was just, I was kind of reliving all of that as I was, uh, listening to, uh, Azel read the story. [01:43:01.784 – 01:43:02.764] Thanks. [01:43:02.764 – 01:43:04.834] And if people don't want to ask a quest- Thank you … [01:43:04.834 – 01:43:05.244] Sorry, Jim. [01:43:05.244 – 01:43:11.364] If people don't want to ask a question, you can contact Bill S. on the emails I- I've just put in there, into the con- into the chat. [01:43:11.364 – 01:43:14.384] Let's go to, uh, Nathan with a quick question. [01:43:14.384 – 01:43:15.664] You got a quick question, Nathan?

[01:43:15.664 – 01:43:16.964] Yeah. [01:43:16.964 – 01:43:18.324] Real simple. [01:43:18.324 – 01:43:27.974] It's obvious to the reader, at least this one, that the book is weird and, uh, convoluted and disorganized in general. [01:43:27.974 – 01:43:33.564] Uh, but we've been using it for most of a century, and we've been using it well. [01:43:33.564 – 01:43:37.164] So let me ask Bill S., how come is that, Bill? [01:43:37.164 – 01:43:41.784] How, how come is it that this book has been effective? [01:43:41.784 – 01:43:42.484] Yeah.

[01:43:42.484 – 01:43:52.264] I, I, I think mainly, mainly because people who actually read the book, and let's face it, there's a whole bunch of people in Alcoholics Anonymous who don't actually read this book, but that's another story completely. [01:43:52.264 – 01:43:56.784] People who actually do read this book, most of them focus on the 12 steps. [01:43:56.784 – 01:43:59.664] You know, it's, it's chapter five as being the heart and soul. [01:43:59.664 – 01:44:09.664] And the 12 steps are, in fact, a, a, a laid out perfect example of if you do this and you do this and you do this, there's a [01:44:09.664 – 01:44:18.044] good chance when you get finished with those first 11, you're going to actually have a spiritual awakening sufficient to keep you away from picking up the first drink. [01:44:18.044 – 01:44:28.144] So I, I, I think despite the disorganization of, of, of the book, um, the 12 steps just, just trump everything else in, [01:44:28.144 – 01:44:33.444] in fir- in terms of their effectiveness, uh, certainly, uh, you know, in, in helping people to get sober.

[01:44:33.444 – 01:44:35.144] Thank you. [01:44:35.144 – 01:44:35.844] Thank you, Bill. [01:44:35.844 – 01:44:40.244] And, uh, again, let's try and keep the questions on the topic of what we read today. [01:44:40.244 – 01:44:42.064] And Dennis from Naples. [01:44:42.064 – 01:44:43.444] Yeah. [01:44:43.444 – 01:44:44.344] Hi, Bill. [01:44:44.344 – 01:44:51.904] Uh, I read the book, and Ida T., uh, lived in Titusville, Pennsylvania, where I live.

[01:44:51.904 – 01:44:55.064] She lived in the 200 block of East M. Street. [01:44:55.064 – 01:44:57.044] The house is now a museum. [01:44:57.044 – 01:45:06.464] I used to do 2, 300 shirts a week from Allegheny C., and I provided all their entrance mats to Col- Allegheny C. when I was in business. [01:45:06.464 – 01:45:12.364] Uh, but you did a wonderful job on this book, and I appreciate your hard work. [01:45:12.364 – 01:45:13.024] Thank you. [01:45:13.024 – 01:45:14.624] Thank you, Dennis. [01:45:14.624 – 01:45:15.204] Thank you, Dennis.

[01:45:15.204 – 01:45:25.224] You know, and, and I, and I, I, I believe, and I could be wrong, and maybe you can correct me on this, Dennis, but I believe that, that Tarbell's father or her uncle was one of the people who was crushed and [01:45:25.224 – 01:45:26.064] ruined by John D. [01:45:26.064 – 01:45:26.744] R.. [01:45:26.744 – 01:45:27.824] Yeah. [01:45:27.824 – 01:45:29.483] It could've, it, it could've been. [01:45:29.483 – 01:45:30.544] I don't know. [01:45:30.544 – 01:45:31.583] Yeah, I believe so.

[01:45:31.583 – 01:45:36.583] But R., R. got his start in Titusville, Pennsylvania, when oil was discovered in 1859. [01:45:36.583 – 01:45:38.554] Right, right, right, right. [01:45:38.554 – 01:45:39.264] Yeah, that… [01:45:39.264 – 01:45:49.364] By the way, I, I'm, I've read this, I've said this before on this, this meeting, but if you're looking for a great, great biography, um, um, the one called Titan [01:45:49.364 – 01:45:49.964] on John D. [01:45:49.964 – 01:45:50.864] R. Sr. [01:45:50.864 – 01:45:51.844] is just…

[01:45:51.844 – 01:45:55.424] It, it was just the best, it was the best biography I think I ever read. [01:45:55.424 – 01:45:59.024] It was, it was so well-written, so well-researched and so well-written. [01:45:59.024 – 01:46:01.144] The guy just jumped off the page at you. [01:46:01.144 – 01:46:02.504] He was a really interesting man. [01:46:02.504 – 01:46:03.414] Mm. [01:46:03.414 – 01:46:04.084] Thank you, Bill. [01:46:04.084 – 01:46:04.384] Thank you.

[01:46:04.384 – 01:46:10.904] Jim, Jim, can I just ask if anyone's new here before Bill goes, if they'd like to say hello to us, if there's anyone new at the first meeting here? [01:46:10.904 – 01:46:14.204] No one new today. [01:46:14.204 – 01:46:14.924] Okay. [01:46:14.924 – 01:46:15.884] Cool. [01:46:15.884 – 01:46:16.644] All right. [01:46:16.644 – 01:46:26.704] Well, Bill has just a couple minute or so to go here, so does anyone have a last question, uh, for Bill before he, uh, before [01:46:26.704 – 01:46:27.284] he has to go?

[01:46:27.284 – 01:46:31.104] Okay. [01:46:31.104 – 01:46:31.914] No other que- no questions? [01:46:31.914 – 01:46:34.214] Okay, so next week we get to read about the Q&A- [01:46:34.448 – 01:46:34.868] Chapter. [01:46:34.868 – 01:46:35.048] Wow. [01:46:35.048 – 01:46:35.988] Oh, man. [01:46:35.988 – 01:46:36.968] That's- We have, we have a duo.

[01:46:36.968 – 01:46:38.948] Bill, we have a duo … [01:46:38.948 – 01:46:42.788] but, but, but- Bill, we're gonna try a, we're gonna try a duo next week with Jim W. and Marsha … [01:46:42.788 – 01:46:43.488] okay. [01:46:43.488 – 01:46:52.068] But I'm, I gotta tell you, man, when, when I found that thing, I was like, "What the hell is this?" And I just could not believe as I was reading it. [01:46:52.068 – 01:46:53.488] It was just … [01:46:53.488 – 01:46:55.728] So anyhow, I'm- Why, why is that, Bill? [01:46:55.728 – 01:46:56.808] Bill, quickly, why is that?

[01:46:56.808 – 01:46:57.708] Why, why, why is that? [01:46:57.708 – 01:47:00.108] Because, uh, no one had ever found it before? [01:47:00.108 – 01:47:02.108] No one had ever mentioned it, ever … [01:47:02.108 – 01:47:02.768] mentioned it before. [01:47:02.768 – 01:47:03.528] Wow. [01:47:03.528 – 01:47:07.868] No one had ever mentioned the Q&A in the history circles. [01:47:07.868 – 01:47:10.968] Q, Q&A with Jim and Marsha.

[01:47:10.968 – 01:47:13.768] Boy, that ought to be- … [01:47:13.768 – 01:47:15.168] that oughta be a winner. [01:47:15.168 – 01:47:20.068] I like the way Jim and Marsha rather than Marsha and Jim, but nevertheless, Jim, we, we, we let you off with that one. [01:47:20.068 – 01:47:20.828] Okay. [01:47:20.828 – 01:47:23.178] So B., thank you very much- Thank you, guys … [01:47:23.178 – 01:47:23.568] for your time. [01:47:23.568 – 01:47:24.228] We appreciate it.

[01:47:24.228 – 01:47:25.268] God bless you. [01:47:25.268 – 01:47:26.338] Thank you, Jim. [01:47:26.338 – 01:47:27.488] And- Thanks for the long read … [01:47:27.488 – 01:47:32.048] listen, let's, let's not give a critique of the reading skill. [01:47:32.048 – 01:47:35.388] But we're, we're, we're just gonna go about next week's reading. [01:47:35.388 – 01:47:40.868] Uh, we have Jim W. gonna be reading with Marsha, and we're on to, obviously, chapter 21. [01:47:40.868 – 01:47:43.308] I'll find it for you.

[01:47:43.308 – 01:47:45.148] And then we're gonna go into, um … [01:47:45.148 – 01:47:45.508] There you go. [01:47:45.508 – 01:47:50.708] So we're gonna be doing that, the Q&A chapter, Bill, as Bill S. said, November 1938. [01:47:50.708 – 01:47:53.588] And of course, Riley, great reading again, Riley. [01:47:53.588 – 01:47:55.408] Uh, footnoting today. [01:47:55.408 – 01:47:57.518] Uh, next, tomorrow night we have How and Why A.A. [01:47:57.518 – 01:47:58.268] Left the Oxford Group.

[01:47:58.268 – 01:48:02.788] This is a, a presentation, take it what you want, a presentation by Ken B., Dick B.'s son. [01:48:02.788 – 01:48:07.388] Uh, and if you wanna come along to that, it's on at 10 o'clock UK time. [01:48:07.388 – 01:48:11.388] The following week, thankfully we have, uh, we have Ward B. [01:48:11.388 – 01:48:18.948] E., a former chairman of the board of Alcoholics Anonymous and author of the 12 Steps to Religul- Relig- Religionless S.. [01:48:18.948 – 01:48:19.948] Say that with a few drinks in you. [01:48:19.948 – 01:48:22.168] The Power of Spirituality W. or Without G.. [01:48:22.168 – 01:48:26.278] In dialogue, he's gonna be in dialogue with Jay S., and we're looking forward to that.

[01:48:26.278 – 01:48:27.258] Can I just quickly read this? [01:48:27.258 – 01:48:29.168] 'Cause I thought it was brilliant when I looked at it. [01:48:29.168 – 01:48:35.108] "The 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous provides a spiritual program dramatically distinct from religion. [01:48:35.108 – 01:48:41.048] 12 step spirituality is based on experience, not doctrine, doctrine. [01:48:41.048 – 01:48:45.008] It is pragmatic, focusing on what works and not on theory. [01:48:45.008 – 01:48:50.888] It is centered in a community that is inclusive, welcoming all who desire to stop drinking. [01:48:50.888 – 01:49:00.968] It seeks rigorous honesty, even when that honesty involves painful questioning, and it centers upon service to the still suffering alcoholic."

[01:49:00.968 – 01:49:03.408] And that's from the forward to that book by Ward B. [01:49:03.408 – 01:49:03.828] E.. [01:49:03.828 – 01:49:04.208] Wow. [01:49:04.208 – 01:49:05.828] That got my attention. [01:49:05.828 – 01:49:13.508] And we have coming up, uh, June 3rd, Pat O'D is gonna be doing, uh, the new thought, uh, what you doing, Pat? [01:49:13.508 – 01:49:16.438] Roots, tradition, the roots of to traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. [01:49:16.438 – 01:49:20.088] And the 10th, we're gonna have Jim W. doing the new thought movement.

[01:49:20.088 – 01:49:27.408] And the 17th of June, Hank is gonna be done by Chris J., who's gonna give us some background to Hank P.. [01:49:27.408 – 01:49:34.388] And on the end of June, we're gonna have Smashing the Creation M. by Bill S.. [01:49:34.388 – 01:49:35.688] Wow. [01:49:35.688 – 01:49:39.388] Now, Bill, or who am I going over to? [01:49:39.388 – 01:49:39.748] Azell? [01:49:39.748 – 01:49:40.908] Jim, are you good? [01:49:40.908 – 01:49:43.128] I'm, I'm good.

[01:49:43.128 – 01:49:43.748] I'm, yeah. [01:49:43.748 – 01:49:45.348] You going into the parking lot? [01:49:45.348 – 01:49:45.618] You are? [01:49:45.618 – 01:49:46.568] You going into the car park? [01:49:46.568 – 01:49:48.288] Yeah, I'm here for the parking lot. [01:49:48.288 – 01:49:51.628] We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna have a meeting after the meeting very shortly. [01:49:51.628 – 01:49:52.748] Azell, where are you gonna meet?

[01:49:52.748 – 01:49:53.368] I'm looking for you. [01:49:53.368 – 01:49:54.028] There, I see you. [01:49:54.028 – 01:49:54.548] There you are. [01:49:54.548 – 01:49:58.228] Will you close with a prayer of your choice, and we close this section of the meeting? [01:49:58.228 – 01:49:59.088] Thank you, Azell. [01:49:59.088 – 01:50:03.328] You mute, unmute yourself, Azell. [01:50:03.328 – 01:50:04.248] I think you need to …

[01:50:04.248 – 01:50:08.368] You're still muted, Azell. [01:50:08.368 – 01:50:10.188] All right, there we go. [01:50:10.188 – 01:50:20.288] Can we have a quiet time for those who are still suffering inside and outside of these rooms and the babies yet to be born, followed by [01:50:20.288 – 01:50:21.668] the Serenity P.? [01:50:21.668 – 01:50:31.048] All right. [01:50:31.048 – 01:50:36.808] Thank you. [01:50:36.808 – 01:50:38.328] The Serenity Prayer.

[01:50:38.328 – 01:50:43.028] God- God- Grant me- Grant me the serenity … [01:50:43.028 – 01:50:53.528] the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. [01:50:53.528 – 01:50:54.008] Amen. [01:50:54.008 – 01:50:55.988] Bill, we have a lot of background from you today, Phil. [01:50:55.988 – 01:50:57.118] Just letting you know that. [01:50:57.118 – 01:50:57.988] We got to mute you again. [01:50:57.988 – 01:51:02.228] Uh, please acknowledge both Riley and, uh, Azell again.

[01:51:02.228 – 01:51:02.648] Thank you. [01:51:02.648 – 01:51:03.148] Good. [01:51:03.148 – 01:51:03.568] Guys, thank you. [01:51:03.568 – 01:51:04.268] Thanks, guys. [01:51:04.268 – 01:51:05.328] Thanks, Riley. [01:51:05.328 – 01:51:05.378] Good job. [01:51:05.378 – 01:51:05.728] Thank you.

[01:51:05.728 – 01:51:06.948] Good job. [01:51:06.948 – 01:51:07.337] Thank you all. [01:51:07.337 – 01:51:07.338] Good job. [01:51:07.338 – 01:51:10.148] Thanks, guys. [01:51:10.148 – 01:51:10.688] Thank you all. [01:51:10.688 – 01:51:10.758] Thanks, guys. [01:51:10.758 – 01:51:11.858] Thanks for the prayers, man.

[01:51:11.858 – 01:51:12.008] Later. [01:51:12.008 – 01:51:12.628] Great meeting. [01:51:12.628 – 01:51:13.548] See you tomorrow. [01:51:13.548 – 01:51:15.608] Nice working with you, Riley. [01:51:15.608 – 01:51:17.908] Yeah, you done well as a good team. [01:51:17.908 – 01:51:18.347] That's nice. [01:51:18.347 – 01:51:19.568] You did great.

[01:51:19.568 – 01:51:20.088] Yeah. [01:51:20.088 – 01:51:20.587] Yeah. [01:51:20.587 – 01:51:21.518] You did so well. [01:51:21.518 – 01:51:22.168] Good job, guys. [01:51:22.168 – 01:51:24.528] Look forward to you next week, Riley. [01:51:24.528 – 01:51:28.408] Let's see if you can … [01:51:28.408 – 01:51:32.008] Let's see what, if you can keep, uh, Marsha and I in order.

[01:51:32.008 – 01:51:34.458] I think that would be a job for you, Riley. [01:51:34.458 – 01:51:35.488] You have a job there. [01:51:35.488 – 01:51:36.388] There's a job. [01:51:36.388 – 01:51:37.868] That'll be a job. [01:51:37.868 – 01:51:40.108] I look forward to that. [01:51:40.108 – 01:51:41.748] J- J- Dave, David, Jim, can I ask you a question? [01:51:41.748 – 01:51:43.988] Oh, go ahead, Dave, New York City.

[01:51:43.988 – 01:51:44.548] Hey, h- how you doing? [01:51:44.548 – 01:51:45.428] It was fantastic. [01:51:45.428 – 01:51:46.038] Joking. [01:51:46.038 – 01:51:53.698] So those 10 things that, that, uh, Paul K. put in the book and then it was taken out later, those 10, uh, uh, sh- it was a s- [01:51:54.140 – 01:51:54.420] Thanks. [01:51:54.420 – 01:51:55.070] Yeah, yeah, yeah … [01:51:55.070 – 01:51:56.200] it was, it was, it was summation?

[01:51:56.200 – 01:51:58.620] Oh, points Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Oh, oh, God S.. [01:51:58.620 – 01:51:58.900] You're right. [01:51:58.900 – 01:52:00.060] You know, you're right I, I, that- It's summation … [01:52:00.060 – 01:52:01.480] that, that, that went over my head. [01:52:01.480 – 01:52:05.420] I would like, I would like to re- see that in front if I could, if I could Well, have you not got a… [01:52:05.420 – 01:52:07.330] Okay, let me, let me quickly just- I have a book. [01:52:07.330 – 01:52:08.340] Yeah.

[01:52:08.340 – 01:52:10.760] I'll, um, I'll get that for you again. [01:52:10.760 – 01:52:12.840] Does anyone know what page that was on quickly? [01:52:12.840 – 01:52:14.760] I think it was about 392 or something, was it? [01:52:14.760 – 01:52:15.480] 3-7. [01:52:15.480 – 01:52:16.540] 399. [01:52:16.540 – 01:52:18.140] Oh, thanks. [01:52:18.140 – 01:52:18.210] 399.

[01:52:18.210 – 01:52:18.660] There you go. [01:52:18.660 – 01:52:19.350] 399. [01:52:19.350 – 01:52:21.620] Or, or it's in WTPB? [01:52:21.620 – 01:52:22.020] Okay. [01:52:22.020 – 01:52:22.640] Well, I don't have it. [01:52:22.640 – 01:52:26.209] Uh, okay, let me- Thank you, David … [01:52:26.209 – 01:52:27.160] yeah Yeah, it's a great book.

[01:52:27.160 – 01:52:27.700] There you go. [01:52:27.700 – 01:52:29.669] So can you see the screen, uh, Dave? [01:52:29.669 – 01:52:31.060] Not really. [01:52:31.060 – 01:52:32.100] I'm trying to pinch it. [01:52:32.100 – 01:52:33.340] Okay. [01:52:33.340 – 01:52:35.420] Well, um, I, I, I'll read it quickly for you. [01:52:35.420 – 01:52:37.920] One is acquaint yourself with the nature of alcoholism.

[01:52:37.920 – 01:52:38.920] Go ahead. [01:52:38.920 – 01:52:42.440] Two, be prepared to discount and forget your man's past. [01:52:42.440 – 01:52:44.740] You saw this is the employer he's talking to. [01:52:44.740 – 01:52:50.780] Three, confidentially offer him medical treatment and cooperation, provided you think he wants to stop. [01:52:50.780 – 01:52:51.500] Okay. [01:52:51.500 – 01:52:59.940] Four, have the alcohol thoroughly removed from his system, always good, and give him a suitable chance to re- recover physically. [01:52:59.940 – 01:53:00.380] And that's four.

[01:53:00.380 – 01:53:04.020] Number five, have the doctor in attendance present him with this book. [01:53:04.020 – 01:53:04.320] Wow. [01:53:04.320 – 01:53:06.460] Wow B. don't cram it down his throat. [01:53:06.460 – 01:53:07.920] Oh, that's fantastic. [01:53:07.920 – 01:53:17.410] Six, have a frank talk with him when he gets back from his treatment, assuring him of your full support, encouraging him to say anything he wishes about himself- Ah … [01:53:17.410 – 01:53:20.720] and making it clear the past will not be held against him. [01:53:20.720 – 01:53:26.260] Seven, ask him to place recovery from alcoholism ahead of all else.

[01:53:26.260 – 01:53:26.900] Eight- Right … [01:53:26.900 – 01:53:28.120] don't let him overwork. [01:53:28.120 – 01:53:32.420] Nine, protect him when justified from malicious gossip. [01:53:32.420 – 01:53:39.520] And 10, if after you have sh- shut the works he will not stop, then let him go. [01:53:39.520 – 01:53:41.120] Okay. [01:53:41.120 – 01:53:42.040] Wow. [01:53:42.040 – 01:53:42.810] Do you want to- Wow.

[01:53:42.810 – 01:53:43.940] I would, I would- Dave, do you have any more to add into t- Go on anyway. [01:53:43.940 – 01:53:44.480] Go ahead, Dave. [01:53:44.480 – 01:53:49.920] Go on If, if I had an employ- employer like that, I, I would've been sober 45 years, Craig. [01:53:49.920 – 01:53:52.090] I just would have. [01:53:52.090 – 01:53:54.000] My employers were drunk also. [01:53:54.000 – 01:53:55.760] Oh, very good. [01:53:55.760 – 01:53:56.140] Very good.

[01:53:56.140 – 01:53:58.660] I- All good But okay. [01:53:58.660 – 01:54:02.600] Does anyone want to start off, uh, uh, discussion? [01:54:02.600 – 01:54:04.380] Yeah, we want to start the Q&A. [01:54:04.380 – 01:54:13.480] I'll, uh, just, uh, we just ask that you raise your hand so that we can do this in order as much, as much as we can, can herd cats. [01:54:13.480 – 01:54:16.620] We, uh, prefer to have the cats raise their paw. [01:54:16.620 – 01:54:19.720] We can try and call on them in order. [01:54:19.720 – 01:54:23.909] And yeah, I'm, I'm good for another half hour or so.

[01:54:23.909 – 01:54:24.300] Okay. [01:54:24.300 – 01:54:27.620] We got you roughly for a half hour, so and I believe Pat O. is here. [01:54:27.620 – 01:54:29.240] I saw Pat here as well, so that's good. [01:54:29.240 – 01:54:30.920] Pat, so, so if anyone wants to join, hi Pat. [01:54:30.920 – 01:54:36.760] If anyone wants to jump in and ask any questions or, or start off a discussion point, um, please do so. [01:54:36.760 – 01:54:40.400] Otherwise, we'll go with those 10 questions or those 10 summation points. [01:54:40.400 – 01:54:43.180] No?

[01:54:43.180 – 01:54:48.000] Any N. very quaint today, aren't they? [01:54:48.000 – 01:54:50.020] I thought, that's why I thought there was a lot of newcomers here today. [01:54:50.020 – 01:54:53.530] I, I, I'll just make a comment- Good man, Patrick … [01:54:53.530 – 01:54:54.080] as an employer. [01:54:54.080 – 01:55:04.240] Um, I think this is kind of naive, to be honest with you, on, uh, of course we gotta remember that they had no experience with this when they went ahead and wrote [01:55:04.240 – 01:55:08.000] it, so they hadn't, they hadn't worked with people in that- Mm … [01:55:08.000 – 01:55:09.760] in a situation.

[01:55:09.760 – 01:55:11.200] So it's all speculative. [01:55:11.200 – 01:55:14.570] And, uh, it's, uh- Ah … [01:55:14.570 – 01:55:21.860] it, it's just, to me it, it's, it's, it's from, you know, take a look at where it was and what their experience was when they wrote it. [01:55:21.860 – 01:55:32.040] Um, those 10 suggestions are fine, but, uh, once again, like I've said before, I've been in, in hundreds of executive offices that I've, [01:55:32.040 – 01:55:40.140] of non-alcoholic presidents and vice presidents and, and I've never seen the book Alcoholics Anonymous on the shelf behind them. [01:55:40.140 – 01:55:50.170] It's, uh, it's just, I think it, I think it's a little bit too grandiose that they thought that this would be, uh, that easy to go ahead and get people to, uh, to adopt this [01:55:50.170 – 01:55:50.670] process.

[01:55:50.670 – 01:55:52.200] That's all I have to say. [01:55:52.200 – 01:55:52.920] Thank you, Patrick. [01:55:52.920 – 01:56:02.600] It's, uh, I thought someone would ask about why, uh, Hank got drunk after all his information, but isn't it, isn't it fair to say that he's an alcoholic and he kind of, uh, took his eye off the ball? [01:56:02.600 – 01:56:07.660] Just- And he might not know what he was talking about And he, and he might not know what he's talking about, Patrick. [01:56:07.660 – 01:56:11.049] What's anyone else want to come in here on, on that? [01:56:11.049 – 01:56:12.840] Yeah. [01:56:12.840 – 01:56:15.099] Or any other top- Or any other topic.

[01:56:15.099 – 01:56:15.720] Yes, of course. [01:56:15.720 – 01:56:16.790] Andrea. [01:56:16.790 – 01:56:17.500] There you go. [01:56:17.500 – 01:56:18.020] Andrea. [01:56:18.020 – 01:56:19.500] Yeah. [01:56:19.500 – 01:56:20.340] Hi, everyone. [01:56:20.340 – 01:56:25.940] Um, I've really, uh, come to appreciate this chapter.

[01:56:25.940 – 01:56:28.340] Um, and two, two reasons. [01:56:28.340 – 01:56:35.120] I do like that Hank uses the term, uh, change of heart as opposed to a r- religious awakening. [01:56:35.120 – 01:56:40.340] Uh, I think it is very akin to a spiritual awakening in the sense of we can't do it on our own. [01:56:40.340 – 01:56:47.620] Anyone outside of AA kind of knows usually p- we've all had changes of heart that kinda, "Oh, how'd that happen? [01:56:47.620 – 01:56:49.420] I, I guess I like my cousin. [01:56:49.420 – 01:56:50.180] I used to hate him. [01:56:50.180 – 01:56:52.030] I don't know." Or something or other.

[01:56:52.030 – 01:56:53.900] I like that phrase a lot. [01:56:53.900 – 01:56:54.330] It- Mm … [01:56:54.330 – 01:57:00.200] it just has less baggage sometimes, even within AA, 'cause we throw around the term spiritual awakening so much. [01:57:00.200 – 01:57:01.220] I think it's fresh. [01:57:01.220 – 01:57:03.120] So I'm grateful for that. [01:57:03.120 – 01:57:13.200] And, um, and I'm also just, I've always appreciated that he's, uh, "No, you might need to fire the guy." It's really, [01:57:13.200 – 01:57:13.730] um-

[01:57:13.892 – 01:57:14.822] Uh, clear about that. [01:57:14.822 – 01:57:21.292] But I wanted to ask anyone that wants to toss in their own feelings about, it seems to me- I'm a little bit racist … [01:57:21.292 – 01:57:29.832] in a couple things Hank says, that you get the feeling he has a little underlying resentment going on around being backstabbed, gossiped about. [01:57:29.832 – 01:57:34.372] Um, uh, yeah, that- that may have been his experience. [01:57:34.372 – 01:57:44.552] It comes up in the final draft of his story and then of course it comes up in his 10 steps in a couple places, that that may have been his experience and he's still kind of resentful about it. [01:57:44.552 – 01:57:49.372] Just curious what other people have thought as they've read that story throughout the years. [01:57:49.372 – 01:57:53.872] Patrick, you waving at us or you just trying to get your c- computer right?

[01:57:53.872 – 01:57:54.432] No. [01:57:54.432 – 01:57:55.512] Uh, he, he got sacked. [01:57:55.512 – 01:57:57.672] Did he get sacked by Standard O., didn't he, Jim? [01:57:57.672 – 01:57:58.302] Oh. [01:57:58.302 – 01:57:58.592] It's not… [01:57:58.592 – 01:57:59.252] Didn't he, Andrea? [01:57:59.252 – 01:58:00.902] You know that, he got sacked by Standard O.- Yeah …

[01:58:00.902 – 01:58:02.212] so I'm sure he had some, yeah. [01:58:02.212 – 01:58:03.652] Mm. [01:58:03.652 – 01:58:04.252] Yeah, yeah. [01:58:04.252 – 01:58:05.412] They didn't keep him on. [01:58:05.412 – 01:58:07.592] I think he probably would've liked to have been kept on. [01:58:07.592 – 01:58:17.612] A- and yet he has the humility to say, you know, a top executive costs them, you know, like I did, like almost saying, "I did cost the company [01:58:17.612 – 01:58:18.171] a lot of money.

[01:58:18.171 – 01:58:20.562] They put a lot of money into me being a top executive-" Mm … [01:58:20.562 – 01:58:24.012] "and I wasn't performing well." But I don't, I don't know. [01:58:24.012 – 01:58:34.172] I'm sure we've all read this chapter many, not out of Bill S.'s book, but out of the Big Book many times, and that's just kind of a feeling I've had- Mm-hmm [01:58:34.172 – 01:58:34.173] … [01:58:34.173 – 01:58:35.272] that he has some- That's a good point. [01:58:35.272 – 01:58:37.632] Uh, it's a good, very good interesting point, Andrea. [01:58:37.632 – 01:58:38.632] Anyone want to come in on that?

[01:58:38.632 – 01:58:40.302] Uh, uh, Jim, are you doing this? [01:58:40.302 – 01:58:41.312] Sorry, I'm taking your job. [01:58:41.312 – 01:58:41.752] Go ahead, Jim. [01:58:41.752 – 01:58:43.592] Oh, that's all right. [01:58:43.592 – 01:58:46.452] Uh, anyone else, uh, uh, Mayzelle? [01:58:46.452 – 01:58:50.492] O- okay. [01:58:50.492 – 01:58:50.992] Thank you.

[01:58:50.992 – 01:59:00.992] You know, uh, one of the things that, uh, was going on with Hank, besides his terrific battles with Bill over what should [01:59:00.992 – 01:59:11.272] be in the book, and particularly, uh, uh, the, the, the whole mentioning of God, Hank took [01:59:11.272 – 01:59:17.512] a, a more of a psychological approach than a spiritual approach. [01:59:17.512 – 01:59:27.762] Um, and o- one of the conflicts that existed was that conflict between Ruth H. and [01:59:27.762 – 01:59:28.152] he. [01:59:28.152 – 01:59:38.432] And subsequent to that, um, he blamed Bill when he went back out and [01:59:38.432 – 01:59:48.952] got drunk, uh, on the fact that he and Ruth H. were never able to successfully, um,

[01:59:48.952 – 01:59:50.932] get together. [01:59:50.932 – 02:00:01.012] Even though Hank, I mean, even though Hank, and you see it that when Chris does his presentation, he has a lot of, um, images, and every [02:00:01.012 – 02:00:08.012] time you see Hank in a, in a image, in a group, if there's some women there, he's focused on them. [02:00:08.012 – 02:00:09.952] Okay? [02:00:09.952 – 02:00:11.852] So- So that was like his MO. [02:00:11.852 – 02:00:14.872] You know? [02:00:14.872 – 02:00:16.382] Jim, what, what, what do, what do you reckon then?

[02:00:16.382 – 02:00:18.362] What do you reckon with regards to what Andrea was saying? [02:00:18.362 – 02:00:20.212] Do you reckon he had a resentment or something and all that? [02:00:20.212 – 02:00:22.812] Is, is, is- Oh, absolutely he had- Absolutely. [02:00:22.812 – 02:00:25.152] Absolutely he had resentments. [02:00:25.152 – 02:00:25.872] You know? [02:00:25.872 – 02:00:37.712] And then, you know, in the part that we read, it talked about how even after he wrote it, Bill found it necessary to [02:00:37.712 – 02:00:47.832] go over it and change some things that, uh, from the way they were placed in

[02:00:47.832 – 02:00:49.732] there by Hank. [02:00:49.732 – 02:00:58.272] And his reasoning of course was so that the book would flow, uh- Mm, mm, mm … [02:00:58.272 – 02:01:00.732] more, uh- I kept crossing the reading, yeah. [02:01:00.732 – 02:01:02.172] Yeah, we got, uh… [02:01:02.172 – 02:01:02.612] Yeah. [02:01:02.612 – 02:01:03.372] Yeah, yeah. [02:01:03.372 – 02:01:06.592] But hi- you know, his resentment was in there, like Andrea said.

[02:01:06.592 – 02:01:09.272] You know, uh, uh, she said humility. [02:01:09.272 – 02:01:11.382] I, I think it's more chutzpah. [02:01:11.382 – 02:01:21.062] Uh, you know, he, he talks about, uh, uh, he's saying, "Well, now, if they'd been smart like I was, like I am-" … [02:01:21.062 – 02:01:24.912] "you know, here's what I would've done to save this guy, me. [02:01:24.912 – 02:01:27.871] Um, here's what I, you should have done. [02:01:27.871 – 02:01:38.472] You know, you got all this, uh, time and money invested in me, you know, and why didn't you…" You know, I think he's taking potshots at them at the same time, [02:01:38.472 – 02:01:43.912] you know, to say, uh, you know, a- again, the resentment, you know.

[02:01:43.912 – 02:01:46.672] And here comes Bill L.. [02:01:46.672 – 02:01:48.672] Good to see you, Bill. [02:01:48.672 – 02:01:51.312] Yeah. [02:01:51.312 – 02:01:54.072] Um- Oh, okay. [02:01:54.072 – 02:02:02.312] On, on the topic of resentment, I g- I believe Hank's whole life was run on resentments. [02:02:02.312 – 02:02:06.632] Uh, he made the automobile po- uh, polish. [02:02:06.632 – 02:02:09.732] He, he claimed to put DuPont out of business.

[02:02:09.732 – 02:02:16.452] He did honor dealers, uh, to be in competition with, with R.. [02:02:16.452 – 02:02:26.092] Uh, uh, you know, the resentment over Bill's interfering with, uh, with, uh, Ruth H. and, a- and him, you know? [02:02:26.092 – 02:02:33.432] It's, uh, um, and even when he started drinking again, you know, he continued with Bill's making- [02:02:33.704 – 02:02:35.864] money for this whole deal. [02:02:35.864 – 02:02:43.124] And you know, so, so I, I think that's what drove Hank, was, was "I'll show you," you know? [02:02:43.124 – 02:02:47.504] Uh, that's, that's what I think anyway. [02:02:47.504 – 02:02:49.024] Thanks, Bill.

[02:02:49.024 – 02:02:50.564] And we'll go to Ed. [02:02:50.564 – 02:03:00.714] Yeah, my question is since, uh, Hank left out, you know, anything about God, spirituality, [02:03:00.714 – 02:03:05.304] uh, do you think kind of Hank wanted to be the power greater than ourselves? [02:03:05.304 – 02:03:11.184] And you know, if the guy doesn't work out, we just fire him, which is what happened exactly to Hank. [02:03:11.184 – 02:03:15.004] That's all I got. [02:03:15.004 – 02:03:18.114] But, uh, you know, I, I, uh- I think that's a good question … [02:03:18.114 – 02:03:26.704] I, as much as I appreciate Hank and what he did, uh, for AA, uh, this chapter, uh, would be better left unwritten I think.

[02:03:26.704 – 02:03:29.204] I still like Hank. [02:03:29.204 – 02:03:33.744] You gotta, you gotta love him because, uh, we wouldn't have the book without him I don't think. [02:03:33.744 – 02:03:39.824] Do, do, do we think that Hank chose Ida T. out of resentment to get back at the Rockefellers? [02:03:39.824 – 02:03:43.074] Do, do, do we think there was something in that? [02:03:43.074 – 02:03:45.324] The, the muckrakers, do we think there was something in that? [02:03:45.324 – 02:03:47.084] Was that a deliberate? [02:03:47.084 – 02:03:53.184] I know we have no evidence of that, but I, I- It's certainly a possibility, right …

[02:03:53.184 – 02:03:56.334] would, he would've known about the muckraking. [02:03:56.334 – 02:03:57.424] Wouldn't he would've known about that? [02:03:57.424 – 02:03:57.714] Wouldn't he? [02:03:57.714 – 02:03:58.444] Yeah, yeah. [02:03:58.444 – 02:04:00.944] I think so. [02:04:00.944 – 02:04:04.464] So maybe when he came across her by chance then he went, "Oh, this is interesting. [02:04:04.464 – 02:04:09.384] Let's see let's see where this goes." No?

[02:04:09.384 – 02:04:10.964] No one's, no one's agreeing with that? [02:04:10.964 – 02:04:11.344] No. [02:04:11.344 – 02:04:14.664] I don't think he could afford any more enemies in High P.. [02:04:14.664 – 02:04:15.694] You know? [02:04:15.694 – 02:04:18.244] He, he had kind of train wrecked his life. [02:04:18.244 – 02:04:19.444] I don't, it's just a guess. [02:04:19.444 – 02:04:24.444] But isn't it interesting that of all the women to choose and all, all the ladies, just he ended up getting, um, the high…

[02:04:24.444 – 02:04:34.504] If we go into the divine intervention here, but you know, of all the women to pick, he ended up with the one that wrote a scaring attack [02:04:34.504 – 02:04:36.524] on, on, uh, the man that destroyed him. [02:04:36.524 – 02:04:43.064] 'Cause he, R. was destroying people, wasn't he, at that time, as we've heard. [02:04:43.064 – 02:04:49.064] And he got the woman who was standing up against him in the s- in society. [02:04:49.064 – 02:04:54.344] Anyway, I, I, I think there's a story there. [02:04:54.344 – 02:04:57.084] A story, Jim. [02:04:57.084 – 02:04:58.464] Not history, a story.

[02:04:58.464 – 02:04:59.844] Oh, okay. [02:04:59.844 – 02:05:00.364] All right. [02:05:00.364 – 02:05:03.044] And, uh, and here's, here comes Nick. [02:05:03.044 – 02:05:05.303] Let's see if he has something interesting. [02:05:05.303 – 02:05:10.724] What, you mean that, that wasn't interesting? [02:05:10.724 – 02:05:11.314] That's interesting. [02:05:11.314 – 02:05:12.704] I thought that was interesting.

[02:05:12.704 – 02:05:14.514] That was … [02:05:14.514 – 02:05:15.424] more interesting. [02:05:15.424 – 02:05:16.744] More interesting. [02:05:16.744 – 02:05:17.164] Very good. [02:05:17.164 – 02:05:20.504] Actually, I've got a bit, I've got a question for, uh, Patrick. [02:05:20.504 – 02:05:25.123] Does he agree that the Big Book would never have been written without Hank P.? [02:05:25.123 – 02:05:28.924] Overall?

[02:05:28.924 – 02:05:39.084] Oh, I think he was a major force on putting it together, but I, my own way, I have a feeling that some power greater than us would've [02:05:39.084 – 02:05:41.924] made some, made something like this appear. [02:05:41.924 – 02:05:43.464] That's just what my feeling is. [02:05:43.464 – 02:05:49.484] I, I think that it's God needs a vehicle and he works through people, and Sam P. happened to be that guy. [02:05:49.484 – 02:05:55.544] But, uh, I'm not saying that we'd all be adrift if, uh, if Hank wasn't around. [02:05:55.544 – 02:05:57.944] I think that, uh, something else would've happened. [02:05:57.944 – 02:06:00.384] But, uh, that's just my point.

[02:06:00.384 – 02:06:01.424] Yeah. [02:06:01.424 – 02:06:04.284] That's a, that's a valid point I agree with as well. [02:06:04.284 – 02:06:11.224] Yeah, I hear that every once in a while with different people. [02:06:11.224 – 02:06:12.784] No, including Bill. [02:06:12.784 – 02:06:13.844] You know? [02:06:13.844 – 02:06:23.864] It's, "Well, if it hadn't been for this person or that person, you know, we'd all be dead by now." And I'm just not sure if that's, you know, if, uh, God is so limited, [02:06:23.864 – 02:06:27.724] or the universe, or the cosmos.

[02:06:27.724 – 02:06:29.184] Dave. [02:06:29.184 – 02:06:33.284] Yeah. [02:06:33.284 – 02:06:35.844] Th- th- this is, this question's out in the field. [02:06:35.844 – 02:06:37.484] It's just an imaginary question. [02:06:37.484 – 02:06:43.604] Uh, Carnegie, uh, were very influential men. [02:06:43.604 – 02:06:46.744] Did R. have any conversations with Carnegie about AA? [02:06:46.744 – 02:06:51.424] Did, did R. have what?

[02:06:51.424 – 02:06:55.304] Like, any talks about AA with, uh, Andrew C.? [02:06:55.304 – 02:06:57.924] Didn't they live at the same time? [02:06:57.924 – 02:07:00.184] That's my question. [02:07:00.184 – 02:07:01.594] Like I said, it's out in left field. [02:07:01.594 – 02:07:03.864] Did R. talk to Carnegie? [02:07:03.864 – 02:07:04.804] Is that what you said? [02:07:04.804 – 02:07:05.554] That's what I asked.

[02:07:05.554 – 02:07:06.564] Yeah, that's what he's asking. [02:07:06.564 – 02:07:07.724] Was there any discussion? [02:07:07.724 – 02:07:07.914] Oh, okay. [02:07:07.914 – 02:07:08.524] Was there any discussion? [02:07:08.524 – 02:07:09.264] Oh, I don't know. [02:07:09.264 – 02:07:10.904] Does anyone know? [02:07:10.904 – 02:07:20.904] If R.- I know that, um, I don't know if he talked to Carnegie, but I know

[02:07:20.904 – 02:07:31.004] that, uh, they had the, uh, R. had a dinner, uh, to where he enlisted support, uh, for, uh, [02:07:31.004 – 02:07:32.084] AA. [02:07:32.084 – 02:07:42.164] And Hank and Bill thought that perhaps they were gonna get this large sum of money, uh, from R., and R. [02:07:42.164 – 02:07:45.764] advised against it and said he would not. [02:07:45.764 – 02:07:47.264] I don't know. [02:07:47.264 – 02:07:51.344] Maybe P. can, uh- Was C. invited to that, Patrick? [02:07:51.344 – 02:07:52.084] No.

[02:07:52.084 – 02:07:52.934] No. [02:07:53.736 – 02:08:03.556] I think that these people, you gotta remember, we're not, our lives AA starts in '35, but, uh, problems with alcohol started a long time before that. [02:08:03.556 – 02:08:14.316] And Henry F., Andrew C., John R. Senior, all of those people were pretty much, uh, prohibitionists or, uh, teetotalers. [02:08:14.316 – 02:08:21.475] So the, and the chances of them through occasion that they had met, fine. [02:08:21.475 – 02:08:22.436] Did they talk about it? [02:08:22.436 – 02:08:23.946] They possibly exchanged … [02:08:23.946 – 02:08:27.206] They probably sent money to the same operation.

[02:08:27.206 – 02:08:30.596] But I, you know, I don't think that they had any deep … [02:08:30.596 – 02:08:39.536] Th- this was a small alcoholism only affects a small percentage of the world, and these guys were dealing with big per- big pieces of the world. [02:08:39.536 – 02:08:40.046] Mm-hmm. [02:08:40.046 – 02:08:41.716] It was a small part. [02:08:41.716 – 02:08:45.316] But yeah, they knew what each other were thinking, I'm sure. [02:08:45.316 – 02:08:51.356] But did they, uh, waste too much time sitting around saying, "Let's fund this thing?" No. [02:08:51.356 – 02:08:52.376] And I don't think that they …

[02:08:52.376 – 02:08:54.616] At C., I don't think, when did he die? [02:08:54.616 – 02:08:55.756] I don't know what, when he died. [02:08:55.756 – 02:08:57.336] I don't think he was around at that time. [02:08:57.336 – 02:08:59.016] 1919. [02:08:59.016 – 02:09:00.096] Yeah. [02:09:00.096 – 02:09:00.936] So- Died in 1919. [02:09:00.936 – 02:09:01.436] Oh, yeah.

[02:09:01.436 – 02:09:01.816] No. [02:09:01.816 – 02:09:10.096] But, you know, I- So yeah, you have to distinguish between, uh, uh, K- uh, uh, R. Senior and R. Junior. [02:09:10.096 – 02:09:11.236] Yeah. [02:09:11.236 – 02:09:12.716] So- You can't get them mixed up. [02:09:12.716 – 02:09:13.956] Yeah, yeah. [02:09:13.956 – 02:09:16.156] Yeah. [02:09:16.156 – 02:09:26.736] And I, or I don't know if it, whether it was in one of Bill S.'s earlier chapters, but something about, uh, R. Junior

[02:09:26.736 – 02:09:32.936] trying to do good, uh, in a, uh, to kind of offset what his father- Mm. [02:09:32.936 – 02:09:33.376] Mm … [02:09:33.376 – 02:09:35.976] had, had done or failed to do. [02:09:35.976 – 02:09:38.276] Um- That's exactly right. [02:09:38.276 – 02:09:38.436] Yeah. [02:09:38.436 – 02:09:41.926] At public relations, they were trying to get him back into the good books in the American psyche- Yeah … [02:09:41.926 – 02:09:42.276] weren't they?

[02:09:42.276 – 02:09:42.836] Yeah, yeah. [02:09:42.836 – 02:09:45.556] And the Carnegie F., the same situation. [02:09:45.556 – 02:09:46.756] Yeah. [02:09:46.756 – 02:09:48.356] Don't know about that. [02:09:48.356 – 02:09:50.716] You know, make up for, uh, for, uh … [02:09:50.716 – 02:09:53.876] That's why Carnegie, uh, the foundation's still going on. [02:09:53.876 – 02:09:57.896] Carnegie U., uh, or Institute.

[02:09:57.896 – 02:09:57.926] Yeah. [02:09:57.926 – 02:10:04.096] Uh, all of those things were, were, uh, do well after we did what we wanted to do for ourselves. [02:10:04.096 – 02:10:04.816] How's that? [02:10:04.816 – 02:10:06.296] Yeah. [02:10:06.296 – 02:10:08.456] Anyone else? [02:10:08.456 – 02:10:10.796] Floyd, did you, uh, you had your hand up. [02:10:10.796 – 02:10:18.696] Oh, well, it was, uh, I was just, I just Googled A. Carnegie, found out he died in 1919.

[02:10:18.696 – 02:10:20.316] But, and I don't know when- Oh … [02:10:20.316 – 02:10:26.256] R. Senior died, but, nor R. Junior for that matter. [02:10:26.256 – 02:10:29.916] But, uh- Well, yeah, those are Googleable too … [02:10:29.916 – 02:10:30.576] that's a good … [02:10:30.576 – 02:10:31.406] Yeah, yeah. [02:10:31.406 – 02:10:35.126] It's just that helps to put it in a timeframe that, uh- Mm-hmm. [02:10:35.126 – 02:10:35.176] Mm-hmm …

[02:10:35.176 – 02:10:37.036] I wasn't quite aware of before. [02:10:37.036 – 02:10:37.406] Mm-hmm. [02:10:37.406 – 02:10:38.216] Yeah. [02:10:38.216 – 02:10:40.756] And- Thank you, Jeff … [02:10:40.756 – 02:10:42.256] Monrovia. [02:10:42.256 – 02:10:42.836] Uh-huh. [02:10:42.836 – 02:10:43.636] Sure.

[02:10:43.636 – 02:10:45.076] Yeah. [02:10:45.076 – 02:10:55.076] Um, I'm, I'm surprised nobody ever brings this up, but R. Senior had a nephew that died of alcoholism and I, I think [02:10:55.076 – 02:10:57.856] he must have been Junior's, uh, cousin. [02:10:57.856 – 02:11:04.856] And the family expected great things out of him, but instead he couldn't stop drinking, he just drank himself to death. [02:11:04.856 – 02:11:15.196] And I thought that was the reason why they may have been interested in finding a cure for others, because they'd already felt pain in their own family as, as a loss of, [02:11:15.196 – 02:11:21.176] of their, uh, Rockef- I think, uh, nephew was R. Senior's nephew. [02:11:21.176 – 02:11:24.396] Uh, don't, doesn't anybody know about that story?

[02:11:24.396 – 02:11:30.036] I think that you'll find most major families have lost a family member to alcoholism. [02:11:30.036 – 02:11:30.386] Yeah. [02:11:30.386 – 02:11:37.646] Whether it be the Rockefellers, the Roosevelts, the Kennedys, the Trumps, whatever it is, it, it, it's a non-dis- Yeah … [02:11:37.646 – 02:11:38.816] it doesn't discriminate. [02:11:38.816 – 02:11:39.816] It touches all. [02:11:39.816 – 02:11:40.636] But, you know. [02:11:40.636 – 02:11:42.736] Mm-hmm.

[02:11:42.736 – 02:11:42.765] Mm-hmm. [02:11:42.765 – 02:11:42.996] Yeah. [02:11:42.996 – 02:11:51.616] I think that may have been one of the reasons why, of course, R. for many years, uh, pumped a whole lot of money into the prohibition movement. [02:11:51.616 – 02:12:01.616] And, uh, I think it was, somebody can correct me, but I think it was like '26, 1926, when he finally pulled out of that. [02:12:01.616 – 02:12:04.736] He realized that prohibition wasn't the answer. [02:12:04.736 – 02:12:15.115] But he put lots and lots of money into, uh, prohibition, and finally, uh, came after it, after it ca- became a law, realized [02:12:15.115 – 02:12:17.196] that, no, this isn't gonna fix anything.

[02:12:17.196 – 02:12:24.196] You know, we have to remember that Bill and Bob and how many other people, they did most of their drinking during prohibition. [02:12:24.196 – 02:12:25.046] Yeah. [02:12:25.046 – 02:12:25.476] You know? [02:12:25.476 – 02:12:27.246] So it didn't stop anybody from drinking. [02:12:27.246 – 02:12:37.276] One other thing is that R., once he knew that drinking was going to return into the public venue, was the one that, uh, had, uh, [02:12:37.276 – 02:12:47.316] F., Raymond F. and, uh, Arthur, was it Arthur S., work on a basically a guideline on how states can now, since alcohol [02:12:47.316 – 02:12:51.036] is coming back into play, what, how do we go ahead and handle it?

[02:12:51.036 – 02:12:52.636] And that book is still in print. [02:12:52.636 – 02:12:53.796] I forget the name of it. [02:12:53.796 – 02:12:54.756] I don't have it right here. [02:12:54.756 – 02:12:58.676] But, uh, no, they, they knew it was a, a done deal. [02:12:58.676 – 02:13:00.276] It was gonna g- gonna continue. [02:13:00.276 – 02:13:02.256] Now, how do we live with it now that we have it? [02:13:02.256 – 02:13:10.296] The other thing is that a lot of these guys were against alcohol because of what it did to the production of their business, by the way.

[02:13:10.296 – 02:13:12.826] You know, whether you're making automobiles or s- [02:13:13.008 – 02:13:16.868] Steel or drilling for oil, booze gets in the way. [02:13:16.868 – 02:13:19.388] And so it has, it's a two-edged sword. [02:13:19.388 – 02:13:22.688] It's not because of, uh, poor Aunt M.'s son. [02:13:22.688 – 02:13:25.368] It's, it, a lot of it is tied with personal gain. [02:13:25.368 – 02:13:35.488] Henry F. was, um, I read something about he, he was so anti liquor, booze, [02:13:35.488 – 02:13:42.208] that he wanted his employees' homes inspected so that to keep alcohol out of their homes.

[02:13:42.208 – 02:13:48.488] And, uh, that, that's pretty viru- virulent, uh, attitude. [02:13:48.488 – 02:13:51.388] Yeah, F. was another story. [02:13:51.388 – 02:13:54.108] He was quite the fascist. [02:13:54.108 – 02:13:57.188] But, uh, yeah, he, he- Yeah. [02:13:57.188 – 02:13:59.948] He was a big fan of Hitler too. [02:13:59.948 – 02:14:01.228] Yep. [02:14:01.228 – 02:14:04.697] And you gotta remember- And he befriended- …

[02:14:04.697 – 02:14:07.368] Watson, Watson who started IBM gained- And he- … [02:14:07.368 – 02:14:10.068] from, uh, his operation until after he died. [02:14:10.068 – 02:14:11.738] So, so we know- Yeah. [02:14:11.738 – 02:14:12.808] Say again, please … [02:14:12.808 – 02:14:15.148] the founding, the founding of the IBM. [02:14:15.148 – 02:14:15.828] Yeah. [02:14:15.828 – 02:14:16.748] Yep.

[02:14:16.748 – 02:14:21.248] And F. was a big fan of Bookman's too, a big friend. [02:14:21.248 – 02:14:22.668] Bill L.. [02:14:22.668 – 02:14:32.908] Yeah, somebody once pointed out to me that, um, cars could run on, on [02:14:32.908 – 02:14:35.288] like bathtub gin, on alcohol. [02:14:35.288 – 02:14:44.138] And if perhaps R. might have had that in mind, if people were making their own gasoline and- … [02:14:44.138 – 02:14:45.758] in the bathtub and running their car. [02:14:45.758 – 02:14:46.488] I like it, Bill.

[02:14:46.488 – 02:14:47.018] I like it. [02:14:47.018 – 02:14:53.668] That would be very- That brings out the cynic, it brings out the cynic definitely in me, Bill. [02:14:53.668 – 02:14:59.228] I was reading about the captains of industry, what they wanted from their schools force was an obedient and docile workforce. [02:14:59.228 – 02:15:00.398] Yeah. [02:15:00.398 – 02:15:06.668] Going back to, going back to the day they were, they wanted the people to educate them, tell them just what they wanted to tell them and keep them docile. [02:15:06.668 – 02:15:06.898] Yeah. [02:15:06.898 – 02:15:08.088] Don't question anything.

[02:15:08.088 – 02:15:18.128] Eh, one, one of the things that, uh, you know, I, I discovered in, in actually working up, uh, the history of the [02:15:18.128 – 02:15:23.058] UK, AA in the UK, um, uh, Frederick D.. [02:15:23.058 – 02:15:31.808] Many people know Frederick D. as, uh, uh, one of the early, uh, black anti-slave, uh, uh, reformers. [02:15:31.808 – 02:15:39.368] And, um, he, uh, he actually went over to the UK and spoke against alcohol. [02:15:39.368 – 02:15:41.068] But he didn't have… [02:15:41.068 – 02:15:51.528] He, he talked about one of his sl- some of his talks talked about that's what, uh, alcohol is what the slave owners needed to keep the slaves in line. [02:15:51.528 – 02:15:52.788] You know?

[02:15:52.788 – 02:15:54.697] And, uh- Right … [02:15:54.697 – 02:16:04.708] the modern 1900s slave drivers, uh, a- and, uh, captains of industry, uh, also, uh, you know, it, [02:16:04.708 – 02:16:06.088] it, it had a double-edged sword. [02:16:06.088 – 02:16:07.008] Mm-hmm. [02:16:07.008 – 02:16:10.528] And a lot of Irish people, well, white people were slaves as well. [02:16:10.528 – 02:16:12.528] It wasn't just the black, the black community. [02:16:12.528 – 02:16:14.458] I got a, I got a good- A lot of Irish people were slaves …

[02:16:14.458 – 02:16:17.808] I got a good quote, David, from, uh, my, my UK history there. [02:16:17.808 – 02:16:28.068] Uh, s- the, the first ones that came over and they told this guy in, uh, in Ireland, they said, uh, "We're gonna bring, uh, AA over to Ireland." [02:16:28.068 – 02:16:33.477] And, uh, and the guy said, "Well, I don't believe we have any alcoholics here." "You might … [02:16:33.477 – 02:16:43.628] Ireland, that they're probably all up there." Well, any, any country that was taken down by the imperialists, the Native A. [02:16:43.628 – 02:16:48.138] Indians, the Aborigines, the Chinese before, any of them that were planted- Alcohol … [02:16:48.138 – 02:16:51.968] a lot of drugs were put in there to keep the workforce and keep the people, uh, dumbed down. [02:16:51.968 – 02:16:52.828] Yep.

[02:16:52.828 – 02:16:54.108] Yeah, yeah. [02:16:54.108 – 02:16:55.848] And that's history. [02:16:55.848 – 02:16:59.168] Yeah. [02:16:59.168 – 02:17:03.168] Just, just to- This is the meeting after the meeting by the way, if you're new. [02:17:03.168 – 02:17:07.188] We, we are in the meeting after the meeting, and we're just randomly, uh, getting into stuff. [02:17:07.188 – 02:17:09.008] But we'll let, we'll try and get it back to AJ. [02:17:09.008 – 02:17:14.988] Uh, I just, uh- I think, yeah, yeah, we'll get it back to, back to, uh, AA history.

[02:17:14.988 – 02:17:19.788] And, and, uh, some of these things are- Uh, connected somewhere … [02:17:19.788 – 02:17:21.148] you know, sometimes you don't know. [02:17:21.148 – 02:17:23.008] I just, uh- Is this really AA history, you know? [02:17:23.008 – 02:17:31.468] Is the Oxford Group, are the Washingtonians, uh, you know, is, uh, uh, Handsome L., you know, some of these people? [02:17:31.468 – 02:17:31.788] Yeah. [02:17:31.788 – 02:17:32.708] Eddie G. [02:17:32.708 – 02:17:34.648] Eddie G's here.

[02:17:34.648 – 02:17:35.708] Wow. [02:17:35.708 – 02:17:37.548] Get us back on, get us back on track. [02:17:37.548 – 02:17:39.688] Thanks very much, everybody, for sharing. [02:17:39.688 – 02:17:50.008] I, I, I, I, I have a question, because i- i- it was in the book, uh, the, I mean the chapter that we just read, um, where- [02:17:50.008 – 02:17:50.018] Uh- … [02:17:50.018 – 02:18:00.108] where Bill was talking about, you know, what, uh, the, on page 400 where it says, "God is omitted from the text." But he, he's making reference, like he's [02:18:00.108 – 02:18:04.968] going back and forth like, um, where, where he's saying, um, where was it?

[02:18:04.968 – 02:18:08.128] Uh, oh, where was it right here? [02:18:08.128 – 02:18:21.728] Um, uh, wait, [02:18:21.728 – 02:18:21.897] wait, wait, wait. [02:18:21.897 – 02:18:21.898] Uh, wait. [02:18:21.898 – 02:18:22.028] Where? [02:18:22.028 – 02:18:22.668] Oh, yeah, here. [02:18:22.668 – 02:18:32.538] So, so th- this is the sentence to where, towards, uh, it, it says, "Why completely spare the, the, the employer the responsi-

[02:18:32.762 – 02:18:37.852] ability of recommending AA's explicitly religious solution. [02:18:37.852 – 02:18:48.192] So my question is this: would you say that maybe from the d- from the, the draft, was [02:18:48.192 – 02:18:51.212] it, was it a religious program? [02:18:51.212 – 02:18:55.172] I, 'cause I, 'cause here Bill is, is going back and forth. [02:18:55.172 – 02:19:05.212] Like, if you read that, the, the, the last two chap- the last two paragraphs of the, um, on page 400, he's going back and forth with religious and spiritual. [02:19:05.212 – 02:19:10.972] But, but here he, he really says, um, what the doctor, um… [02:19:10.972 – 02:19:20.972] Yeah, yeah, in, in this paragraph he's, like, going back and forth with, with l- you know, AA's explicit religious solution, and then he's

[02:19:20.972 – 02:19:23.672] going back to acquire a spiritual experience. [02:19:23.672 – 02:19:31.852] So my question is this: would, um, was it a religious program at the beginning when they were s- you know… [02:19:31.852 – 02:19:36.812] I, I gotta leave it open for- What, what about the bottom of that page there, Eddie? [02:19:36.812 – 02:19:40.851] It says, "Completely sidestepping the religious elements." What about that? [02:19:40.851 – 02:19:42.692] Where does it say that, Eddie? [02:19:42.692 – 02:19:43.652] What page? [02:19:43.652 – 02:19:44.662] 400.

[02:19:44.662 – 02:19:45.472] Oh, 400. [02:19:45.472 – 02:19:49.252] Where that it says religious. [02:19:49.252 – 02:19:55.202] If you look at p- the bo- what I have on the screen there, s- "Completely sidestepping the religious elements." Yeah, but beyond. [02:19:55.202 – 02:19:55.782] Yeah, but, but beyond. [02:19:55.782 – 02:19:57.222] Here, w- uh, right there. [02:19:57.222 – 02:20:07.232] "Why, why completely spare the employer the responsibility of recommending AA's explicitly religious solution?" There you [02:20:07.232 – 02:20:07.412] go.

[02:20:07.412 – 02:20:08.412] There, there, right there. [02:20:08.412 – 02:20:14.532] So, so, a- a- but, but see, so he's going back and forth with, with religious- Mm-hmm … [02:20:14.532 – 02:20:15.552] and spiritual. [02:20:15.552 – 02:20:17.952] Like in, like in the other paragraph. [02:20:17.952 – 02:20:20.302] So, so I, I was w- I was pondering this. [02:20:20.302 – 02:20:30.342] I was thinking, "Well, was it really religious?" I know at the beginning of the steps they say, "on our knees," and all that, but I thought that there, like, Bill was trying to get away from the, [02:20:30.342 – 02:20:33.202] the Oxford Group principles and all that.

[02:20:33.202 – 02:20:33.692] Fundamentals. [02:20:33.692 – 02:20:33.992] Yeah, yeah. [02:20:33.992 – 02:20:35.552] Well, a c- a couple of things. [02:20:35.552 – 02:20:43.711] A couple of chapters ago Bill S. talked about, I believe it's in, uh, There is a Solution. [02:20:43.711 – 02:20:47.562] There, where they went in and they, they cleaned it up. [02:20:47.562 – 02:20:52.032] Every place where it said religious, they took it out and they put spiritual in. [02:20:52.032 – 02:20:53.182] Okay.

[02:20:53.182 – 02:20:59.012] And they didn't in some places, and those are some of those minor inconsistencies. [02:20:59.012 – 02:21:08.692] The other thing I think that's important is that, uh, for example, you know, William J.' book, The Varieties of Religious E.. [02:21:08.692 – 02:21:18.822] When they're talking religious, William J. or, or a lot of people, when they're talking religious in those terms, they're [02:21:18.822 – 02:21:28.482] talking about, uh, William J. specifically says, "an individual theology." You know, we're talking- Mm. [02:21:28.482 – 02:21:28.483] Okay … [02:21:28.483 – 02:21:32.042] this is a pri- a primary, you know what I'm saying? [02:21:32.042 – 02:21:32.992] That they're really- Yeah …

[02:21:32.992 – 02:21:41.212] using what we would say is spiritual today, but they use the word religious, you know, a lot. [02:21:41.212 – 02:21:42.112] You know? [02:21:42.112 – 02:21:45.592] When, because that was the most common word used. [02:21:45.592 – 02:21:46.612] And that- Oh, okay. [02:21:46.612 – 02:21:47.072] Okay. [02:21:47.072 – 02:21:50.531] I, somebody else can comment on that. [02:21:50.531 – 02:21:52.272] But Jim- No, no, thanks for clarifying that.

[02:21:52.272 – 02:21:55.552] Do you imagine k- they were talking about religious rather than institutionalized religion. [02:21:55.552 – 02:21:59.892] They were talking about religious as in an, as, as in a thing is rather than an institution. [02:21:59.892 – 02:22:01.212] Mm-hmm. [02:22:01.212 – 02:22:02.072] Yeah. [02:22:02.072 – 02:22:02.472] Yeah, yeah. [02:22:02.472 – 02:22:02.812] Okay. [02:22:02.812 – 02:22:04.822] I d- I was gonna say- And Floyd …

[02:22:04.822 – 02:22:06.492] I think that's where I got hung up on. [02:22:06.492 – 02:22:07.752] Oh, okay. [02:22:07.752 – 02:22:08.012] Yeah. [02:22:08.012 – 02:22:08.752] Great. [02:22:08.752 – 02:22:09.272] Thank you. [02:22:09.272 – 02:22:10.292] Uh-huh. [02:22:10.292 – 02:22:11.092] And Floyd?

[02:22:11.092 – 02:22:13.032] Uh, thanks, Jim. [02:22:13.032 – 02:22:21.732] I, uh, just googled R. Sr., and he died in May of 1937 at the age of 98. [02:22:21.732 – 02:22:26.292] So, uh, he was probably out of the picture by that time. [02:22:26.292 – 02:22:26.822] Yeah. [02:22:26.822 – 02:22:34.912] And his son, uh, uh, Jr., uh, you know, I have to wonder even in the 1920s, you know, uh, Sr. [02:22:34.912 – 02:22:36.922] would've been in his 80s. [02:22:36.922 – 02:22:44.092] And, uh, I don't know how active or, you know, how capable he was at that time, but, uh, certainly Jr.

[02:22:44.092 – 02:22:46.112] was, was there. [02:22:46.112 – 02:22:50.381] That, that's just going back to what, what we were talking about earlier. [02:22:50.381 – 02:22:53.452] I just wanted to, thought that would be interesting. [02:22:53.452 – 02:22:53.482] Yeah. [02:22:53.482 – 02:22:53.622] All right. [02:22:53.622 – 02:22:53.701] Thank you. [02:22:53.701 – 02:22:55.092] Interesting fact to throw in.

[02:22:55.092 – 02:22:55.732] Yeah. [02:22:55.732 – 02:22:56.332] Thank you. [02:22:56.332 – 02:22:56.962] Back to Nick. [02:22:56.962 – 02:22:58.572] Yeah. [02:22:58.572 – 02:23:08.922] Like, I, I believe that when Bill was in the town's hospital and he, and I think he described that to himself as having a profound [02:23:08.922 – 02:23:14.752] religious experience, one of a Christian faith, and he found God at that moment. [02:23:14.752 – 02:23:22.092] And I think that later on he tapered it down to a spiritual experience because he wanted everybody to be inclusive.

[02:23:22.092 – 02:23:24.252] That's my take on it. [02:23:24.252 – 02:23:34.372] Yeah, I, I, I think you're absolutely right, because as they, as they went along in the writing of the book, it became exactly the last, [02:23:34.372 – 02:23:42.752] uh, you know, if, if you read the book, uh, the book that started it all, you know, and you see the, the changes that were made there at the end. [02:23:42.752 – 02:23:47.022] You know, even towards the end there was, "No, we gotta get rid of this. [02:23:47.022 – 02:23:49.312] It's too groupie." You know? [02:23:49.312 – 02:23:50.932] "It's too much Oxford Group. [02:23:50.932 – 02:23:52.342] It's too," you know-

[02:23:52.453 – 02:23:58.184] which too religious, and Bill wanted more and more, more inclusive. [02:23:58.184 – 02:24:00.884] That was one of the reasons why they sent out the multith. [02:24:00.884 – 02:24:06.904] They wanted to get, uh, other ideas, but they also wanted to find out if there were any objections. [02:24:06.904 – 02:24:08.874] You know, if, if… [02:24:08.874 – 02:24:11.444] and of course, the Catholics did have one. [02:24:11.444 – 02:24:17.764] You know, in Bill's story it says, "We found a, you know, heaven here on earth." And the Catholics said- Yeah … [02:24:17.764 – 02:24:18.944] "Well, why don't you use…

[02:24:18.944 – 02:24:29.274] not say heaven." You know, and, uh, but he wanted to make it more inclusive, but he didn't want to offend, uh, uh, any groups [02:24:29.274 – 02:24:31.724] or large groups of people. [02:24:31.724 – 02:24:33.444] And back to Azell. [02:24:33.444 – 02:24:43.444] I think we have to also consider the fact that, uh, before there were any steps, [02:24:43.444 – 02:24:47.864] there was the Oxford Group and there was the Bible. [02:24:47.864 – 02:24:58.144] And, and all of their early, um, spiritual activity [02:24:58.144 – 02:25:02.864] came from the Bible, the Christian B., and the Oxford Group.

[02:25:02.864 – 02:25:12.904] We also got a religious view on AA in our basic text in appendices five, haven't [02:25:12.904 – 02:25:13.044] we? [02:25:13.044 – 02:25:15.664] So there is religious view on AA. [02:25:15.664 – 02:25:17.144] Yeah. [02:25:17.144 – 02:25:18.104] Yeah. [02:25:18.104 – 02:25:25.824] The, some of the- There's re- there, there is a hu- 'cause the purpose of religion as I know it is religio, or comes from the root religio, to bring man back to God. [02:25:25.824 – 02:25:27.424] It's the whole purpose of religion.

[02:25:27.424 – 02:25:30.464] Not institutionalized religion, but the religion itself. [02:25:30.464 – 02:25:34.104] And AA could be considered as a religion from that point of view. [02:25:34.104 – 02:25:35.064] Religious. [02:25:35.064 – 02:25:37.404] Non-reli- may I ask a history question? [02:25:37.404 – 02:25:38.484] If not, I'll refrain. [02:25:38.484 – 02:25:39.844] Sure. [02:25:39.844 – 02:25:40.604] Go right ahead.

[02:25:40.604 – 02:25:41.664] Okay, Jim. [02:25:41.664 – 02:25:44.964] Uh, of course, a- and things you hear in the… [02:25:44.964 – 02:25:51.354] consider- You're fa- … [02:25:51.354 – 02:25:51.394] fact check me. [02:25:51.394 – 02:25:51.994] You're fading in and out. [02:25:51.994 – 02:25:52.604] Fact check me. [02:25:52.604 – 02:25:52.954] I…

[02:25:52.954 – 02:25:54.004] Oh. [02:25:54.004 – 02:25:57.144] Go ahead. [02:25:57.144 – 02:25:58.744] Repeat the question. [02:25:58.744 – 02:26:07.404] Uh, did the Catholic C. or the Vatican have a problem with step five, another human being, with the words another human being? [02:26:07.404 – 02:26:09.264] That's what I heard. [02:26:09.264 – 02:26:10.824] Now, I don't, I don't know if it's true or not. [02:26:10.824 – 02:26:13.384] The Catholic Church had a question with what?

[02:26:13.384 – 02:26:17.224] Had a problem with the words another human being in step five. [02:26:17.224 – 02:26:20.164] Another human being. [02:26:20.164 – 02:26:21.394] Admitted to God, to ourselves, and another human being. [02:26:21.394 – 02:26:23.584] Admitted to God, to ourselves, and another human being. [02:26:23.584 – 02:26:24.564] Oh. [02:26:24.564 – 02:26:24.824] Oh. [02:26:24.824 – 02:26:25.514] Um- Sorry.

[02:26:25.514 – 02:26:28.724] When, when they wrote the Big Book, no. [02:26:28.724 – 02:26:33.644] Back in Akron, uh, they didn't say anything then. [02:26:33.644 – 02:26:39.244] But back in Akron, of course, that was one of the reasons why, uh, Clarence broke away. [02:26:39.244 – 02:26:39.783] The… [02:26:39.783 – 02:26:41.924] He had a lot of Ca- Catholics in Cleveland. [02:26:41.924 – 02:26:42.653] Mm-hmm. [02:26:42.653 – 02:26:53.144] And, uh, and they were going to this Protestant O. Group, and, uh, and the priests there in, uh,

[02:26:53.144 – 02:26:58.504] in Cleveland were saying, "Listen, you're saying the Our F. wrong," you know? [02:26:58.504 – 02:27:05.844] "And you're using the wrong Bible, and you're telling people that they have to confess in a group. [02:27:05.844 – 02:27:13.514] And listen, we got the, the, we got the right Our F.." "The right one." That's great. [02:27:13.514 – 02:27:21.824] "And, uh, and so, so we're gonna excommunicate these Catholics if they…" I mean, I grew up- That's dogma though, right, Jim? [02:27:21.824 – 02:27:22.964] That's dogma, right? [02:27:22.964 – 02:27:23.564] That's dogma. [02:27:23.564 – 02:27:24.153] Mm-hmm.

[02:27:24.153 – 02:27:25.564] Well, I don't… [02:27:25.564 – 02:27:26.594] not dogma, but… [02:27:26.594 – 02:27:28.374] No, but it was practice. [02:27:28.374 – 02:27:32.204] I grew up in the '50s and, and there were two kinds of people in the world. [02:27:32.204 – 02:27:36.304] They taught me only two: Catholics and non-Catholics. [02:27:36.304 – 02:27:37.344] That was it. [02:27:37.344 – 02:27:37.784] Mm.

[02:27:37.784 – 02:27:38.724] You know? [02:27:38.724 – 02:27:40.844] And either you were one or you're the other. [02:27:40.844 – 02:27:43.084] And this is in the '30s too. [02:27:43.084 – 02:27:45.734] We have to remember that, uh, you know, they were… [02:27:45.734 – 02:27:47.624] that things were different then. [02:27:47.624 – 02:27:49.344] And, uh, Catholic… [02:27:49.344 – 02:27:50.074] And, and Dr.

[02:27:50.074 – 02:27:56.024] Bob said, "Well, that's not my problem." You know, he told Clarence, he said, "Well, that's not my problem. [02:27:56.024 – 02:28:02.064] If they don't, they either have to stay with their church or they have to get sober with us." You know? [02:28:02.064 – 02:28:04.384] Well, Cla- Clarence didn't go along with that. [02:28:04.384 – 02:28:08.664] Said, you know, "Just wait and see." And he, so he broke away. [02:28:08.664 – 02:28:15.244] And he said, "We have our own book," because this was in, uh, May of '39, a month after the book came out. [02:28:15.244 – 02:28:17.924] And, and Clarence said, "We got our own book. [02:28:17.924 – 02:28:25.984] We've got the absolutes, and, uh, and, uh, we don't need the Oxford Group anymore." And he broke away from…

[02:28:25.984 – 02:28:30.664] in, uh, in May of, uh, of '39. [02:28:30.664 – 02:28:34.714] And of course, December is when, uh, Dr. [02:28:34.714 – 02:28:37.724] Bob finally broke away the Akron group. [02:28:37.724 – 02:28:40.964] But New York had broken away in 1937. [02:28:40.964 – 02:28:46.604] Sorry, I got talking too much there. [02:28:46.604 – 02:28:49.384] Any, any other Q&A? [02:28:49.384 – 02:28:50.464] Any other Qs?

[02:28:50.464 – 02:29:01.924] Any [02:29:01.924 – 02:29:02.744] other questions? [02:29:02.744 – 02:29:05.004] If not, I'm gonna turn it back to David. [02:29:05.004 – 02:29:06.544] Oh, well, finished. [02:29:06.544 – 02:29:08.484] Well, we call that end of the show. [02:29:08.484 – 02:29:09.564] The curtain has been pulled.