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[00:00:02.480 – 00:00:03.100] Good evening, everyone. [00:00:03.100 – 00:00:04.880] My name is David, and I'm an alcoholic. [00:00:04.880 – 00:00:10.620] And I'd like to welcome you all to this reading book meeting on Zoom, hosted by the Growing and Understanding A Group. [00:00:10.620 – 00:00:13.870] And we're on chapter 24 of Writing the Big Book: The Creation of A.A. [00:00:13.870 – 00:00:14.660] by Bill S.. [00:00:14.660 – 00:00:16.910] And we've got two readers today. [00:00:16.910 – 00:00:18.000] We've got myself.

[00:00:18.000 – 00:00:21.100] I'm in c- I'm in Bastion W. at the moment, normally out of London. [00:00:21.100 – 00:00:24.380] And we've got Jim W. in Canada, Cancun. [00:00:24.380 – 00:00:25.740] Cancun. [00:00:25.740 – 00:00:29.180] And Riley K is gonna be doing our footnotes for us. [00:00:29.180 – 00:00:30.680] So R. in Oregon. [00:00:30.680 – 00:00:32.980] Wow. [00:00:32.980 – 00:00:33.420] Okay.

[00:00:33.420 – 00:00:35.769] So T. Five, the long form, states, "Each A.A. [00:00:35.769 – 00:00:46.050] group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose, and that of course is to carry its message to the alcoholics who are still suffering." So in keeping within the spirit of, uh, A.A.'s traditions, [00:00:46.050 – 00:00:56.920] the main purpose of these reading book meetings is of course to improve our understanding of the fellowship of A.A., the message contained within the book title, Alcoholics Anonymous, and of course the creation [00:00:56.920 – 00:00:58.060] of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:00:58.060 – 00:01:03.300] Okay, and now we're gonna put it up on the screen for you if you'd like to just join in. [00:01:03.300 – 00:01:06.360] It's not compulsory obviously, but if you'd like to join in. [00:01:06.360 – 00:01:08.580] We're using God as you understand it.

[00:01:08.580 – 00:01:10.060] So, God. [00:01:10.060 – 00:01:11.160] God. [00:01:11.160 – 00:01:12.200] Remove. [00:01:12.200 – 00:01:13.070] Remove. [00:01:13.070 – 00:01:13.730] The pieces that help me stay sober. [00:01:13.730 – 00:01:13.731] God. [00:01:13.731 – 00:01:14.440] A piece set aside.

[00:01:14.440 – 00:01:17.040] Everything I think I know. [00:01:17.040 – 00:01:17.560] Everything I think I know. [00:01:17.560 – 00:01:18.660] For an open mind. [00:01:18.660 – 00:01:21.300] For an open mind and a new experience. [00:01:21.300 – 00:01:22.030] And a new experience. [00:01:22.030 – 00:01:22.280] Amen. [00:01:22.280 – 00:01:23.090] Amen.

[00:01:23.090 – 00:01:23.770] Amen. [00:01:23.770 – 00:01:24.380] So it is. [00:01:24.380 – 00:01:26.400] Thank you, everyone. [00:01:26.400 – 00:01:31.500] We'll just have a few moment's silence to gather our thoughts and think of those members who went ahead of us. [00:01:31.500 – 00:01:36.080] And I believe there was a celebration of, um, a long-standing member today, Elizabeth B.. [00:01:36.080 – 00:01:37.640] Is that right, Jim? [00:01:37.640 – 00:01:38.880] Yep, that's right.

[00:01:38.880 – 00:01:39.500] Yeah, sure. [00:01:39.500 – 00:01:40.540] We, uh… [00:01:40.540 – 00:01:46.700] Her, her funeral was today, 100 years old and 69 years and 10 months of sobriety. [00:01:46.700 – 00:01:47.800] Wow. [00:01:47.800 – 00:01:50.140] Brilliant. [00:01:50.140 – 00:01:51.520] Yeah. [00:01:51.520 – 00:01:58.260] Thank you, everyone.

[00:01:58.260 – 00:02:00.640] And Jim, what was that message you were saying you saw in the chat earlier? [00:02:00.640 – 00:02:02.020] I thought it was good. [00:02:02.020 – 00:02:07.440] Oh, the, uh, message about, uh- Yeah, Liz … [00:02:07.440 – 00:02:17.440] someone during the funeral, uh, chat, one of her favorite, uh, sayings was always, uh, "Without you, there is no me." And, uh, someone, uh, [00:02:17.440 – 00:02:22.040] wrote in the chat at her funeral, uh, "Thanks for everything, Liz. [00:02:22.040 – 00:02:25.880] We'll take it from here." That was lovely. [00:02:25.880 – 00:02:26.049] Yeah.

[00:02:26.049 – 00:02:26.740] That's beautiful. [00:02:26.740 – 00:02:28.740] Uh, great, Jim. [00:02:28.740 – 00:02:36.120] And I just want to say, if you'd like to contact, uh, Bill S., I'm just gonna put that up on the screen for us now in one second. [00:02:36.120 – 00:02:39.810] You can contact Bill at Writing the Big Book: The Creation of A.A. [00:02:39.810 – 00:02:41.280] I'm just gonna put that up on the screen. [00:02:41.280 – 00:02:42.560] I'd like to just get that in as well. [00:02:42.560 – 00:02:43.880] There we go.

[00:02:43.880 – 00:02:49.880] So for s- some people don't like to ask the questions during the meeting, and you can ask Bill, uh, Writing the Big Book. [00:02:49.880 – 00:02:50.360] There you go. [00:02:50.360 – 00:02:54.000] And you just press the contact link there, and you can send Bill… [00:02:54.000 – 00:02:59.570] I guess Bill will answer any question you have on, on, on the book, should I say, Writing the Big Book: The Creation of A.A. [00:02:59.570 – 00:03:03.519] You just go in there, contact the author. [00:03:03.519 – 00:03:05.600] Okay. [00:03:05.600 – 00:03:08.560] So as I said, we're on chapter…

[00:03:08.560 – 00:03:10.380] I'm gonna get it up on the Kindle so you can follow along. [00:03:10.380 – 00:03:13.359] If you ain't got the book yet, we'll be following along on the Kindle edition. [00:03:13.359 – 00:03:16.240] And it'll be on screen hopefully shortly. [00:03:16.240 – 00:03:20.640] And- And we will have Q&A afterwards. [00:03:20.640 – 00:03:26.800] So if you have any, uh, questions while we're reading, uh, jot them down and we'll, uh… [00:03:26.800 – 00:03:28.859] It's not a discussion meeting. [00:03:28.859 – 00:03:34.560] We'll just be talking Q&A with the author about anything that comes up during the reading today.

[00:03:34.560 – 00:03:36.740] Over to you, David. [00:03:36.740 – 00:03:37.620] Great job. [00:03:37.620 – 00:03:38.280] Thank you, Jim. [00:03:38.280 – 00:03:44.160] So we're on chapter 24, editing Bill's steps, and we're in December 1938. [00:03:44.160 – 00:03:54.200] According to Bill, he didn't have long to wait before he encountered the first negative reaction to his brilliant new formulation of their program of recovery. [00:03:54.200 – 00:04:02.800] Just minutes after the 12 steps were written, he said he walked downstairs and discovered some S. resistance already waiting for him in the K.. [00:04:02.800 – 00:04:06.840] At this moment, a couple of late callers arrived.

[00:04:06.840 – 00:04:10.440] One of them was my boon companion of those days, H. A. [00:04:10.440 – 00:04:14.220] With him was a newcomer, dry barely three months. [00:04:14.220 – 00:04:21.800] I was greatly pleased with what I had written, and I read them the new version of the program, now the 12 steps. [00:04:21.800 – 00:04:24.870] H. and his friend reacted violently. [00:04:24.870 – 00:04:28.150] "Why 12 steps?" they demanded. [00:04:28.150 – 00:04:30.920] And then, "You've got too much God in these steps. [00:04:30.920 – 00:04:41.040] You'll scare people away." And, "What do you mean by getting those drunks down on their knees when they ask to have all their shortcomings removed?" And,

[00:04:41.040 – 00:04:50.760] "Who wants all their shortcomings removed anyhow?" As he saw my uneasiness, H. added, "Well, some of this stuff does sound pretty good after all. [00:04:50.760 – 00:04:53.300] But Bill, you've got to tone it down. [00:04:53.300 – 00:04:54.660] It's too stiff. [00:04:54.660 – 00:05:01.620] The average alcoholic just won't buy it the way it stands." The arguments over religion versus psychology. [00:05:01.620 – 00:05:10.920] The exact identity of this H. A has proven to be a real mystery, casting some doubt on Bill's recollection of the entire exchange. [00:05:10.920 – 00:05:20.960] But whatever the truth might be about this particular encounter, W.'s presentation of the 12 steps did touch off a wave of arguments in New York, [00:05:20.960 – 00:05:21.469] and there was a footno-

[00:05:21.596 – 00:05:23.516] Note there, Riley T. was. [00:05:23.516 – 00:05:27.436] It was way back there, so we'll go back there to, uh, the first footnote. [00:05:27.436 – 00:05:33.256] The only known sober AA named H. before 1939 was Dr. [00:05:33.256 – 00:05:39.036] H. Cyril, an Akron member who stopped drinking in January 1937. [00:05:39.036 – 00:05:47.416] See F. A.' detailed mention of him in the February 1938 Notes on Akron, Ohio S., page one. [00:05:47.416 – 00:05:52.796] Pass It On has a footnote on page 206 claiming that this H. A. [00:05:52.796 – 00:06:01.756] was really Horace C., and that Bill used a pseudonym here because of a dispute between them, and he did not wish to offend Horace C.

[00:06:01.756 – 00:06:02.956] by using his name. [00:06:02.956 – 00:06:13.376] While this would be true of the H. mentioned on page 186 and 192 of AA Comes of Age, the facts there perfectly [00:06:13.376 – 00:06:17.276] correspond to Horace C.'s AA board activities during those times. [00:06:17.276 – 00:06:23.736] The mention on page 161 does not match up at all with what we know of the man. [00:06:23.736 – 00:06:29.176] Most especially, Horace wasn't even sober on the day the steps were written. [00:06:29.176 – 00:06:35.856] He didn't stop drinking until December 16th, 1938, at least two weeks after Bill wrote them. [00:06:35.856 – 00:06:46.436] See H. Crystal's questionnaire, GSO box 59, 1938, folder B1, document 1938-198

[00:06:46.436 – 00:06:49.656] that has this as the date of his sobriety. [00:06:49.656 – 00:06:59.676] And also the second unnumbered document in GSO, box 59, 1939 folder C, which lists his sobriety date as [00:06:59.676 – 00:07:01.176] December 1938. [00:07:01.176 – 00:07:11.356] This leaves no obvious candidate here for who this late night visitor, H. A., might have actually been, although [00:07:11.356 – 00:07:18.996] he does sound suspiciously like Hank P., who had certainly been Bill's boon companion of those days. [00:07:18.996 – 00:07:21.516] Whew, David, take it back. [00:07:21.516 – 00:07:22.956] Well done, Riley.

[00:07:22.956 – 00:07:23.856] Thank you very much. [00:07:23.856 – 00:07:34.016] So his succinct formulation of, quote, "The steps we took, which are suggested as your program of recovery," close quote, quickly brought to a head all the resentments [00:07:34.016 – 00:07:44.036] that had been quietly festering just below the surface between those New York members who wanted the book to be a powerfully religious document and those who [00:07:44.036 – 00:07:46.456] thought it should be a psychological book. [00:07:46.456 – 00:07:48.436] Bill had complained to Dr. [00:07:48.436 – 00:07:58.776] Bob just one month earlier that he was finding it, quote, "Pretty hard to get people to voice their real opinions, as they are too much afraid of hurting the author's feelings," [00:07:58.776 – 00:07:59.596] close quote.

[00:07:59.596 – 00:08:02.016] But all that changed in December. [00:08:02.016 – 00:08:12.296] The 12 steps were the catalyst that dragged all of those long-simmering disagreements over religion, spirituality, and belief out into the open [00:08:12.296 – 00:08:14.376] where they could no longer be ignored. [00:08:14.376 – 00:08:23.376] AA mythology claims that these loud and contentious arguments dominated the Tuesday night meetings in Brooklyn throughout the month of December. [00:08:23.376 – 00:08:24.976] But that was not the case. [00:08:24.976 – 00:08:35.036] The disagreements that did arise at those meetings were of the more genteel sort, already mentioned here, as members made relatively minor suggestion, [00:08:35.036 – 00:08:39.976] suggestions for changes they thought Bill should make to what he was writing for the book.

[00:08:39.976 – 00:08:50.016] Striking testimony to the relatively, relative civility of these discussions comes from Tom B., who was a newcomer when he [00:08:50.016 – 00:08:55.036] attended the New York weekly gatherings in late November and December 1938. [00:08:55.036 – 00:09:03.996] In a talk recorded years later, Tom supplied some lively and colorful details about what happened at those important meetings. [00:09:03.996 – 00:09:13.996] After the meatballs and spaghetti or whatever we had, this same tall, lanky guy, Bill W., came out of the dining room with a legal [00:09:13.996 – 00:09:20.956] pad, and he sprawled out on the floor with his back to the folding doors, and he started to read what he had written on this legal pad. [00:09:20.956 – 00:09:23.716] And that was one of the chapters of the Big Book. [00:09:23.716 – 00:09:26.956] And of course, it made little or no sense to me at the time.

[00:09:26.956 – 00:09:34.676] Maybe I was too fogged up or didn't get the full significance of this thing, but at any rate, I listened while these folks wrangled. [00:09:34.676 – 00:09:37.676] Change a comma here, a question mark here. [00:09:37.676 – 00:09:40.376] One said, "You don't put that in. [00:09:40.376 – 00:09:42.876] Put this in." And finally, the meeting was ended. [00:09:42.876 – 00:09:43.976] Footnote. [00:09:43.976 – 00:09:54.176] B. says he attended four, five, or six meetings in a row before drinking again on December 23rd, 1938, which [00:09:54.176 – 00:10:04.256] would put his earliest attendance at a meeting in Brooklyn on the 15th of November, or possibly the 22nd or the 29th of that month, if the four or

[00:10:04.256 – 00:10:06.136] five count are more accurate. [00:10:06.136 – 00:10:16.216] Tom only drank again for four weeks before getting permanently sober on January 16th, 1939, after which he went on to play several [00:10:16.216 – 00:10:19.216] prominent and important roles in AA's early years. [00:10:19.216 – 00:10:29.456] Note that this talk, while occasionally leaning on AA Comes of Age for some incorrect details, provides a wealth of very specific [00:10:29.456 – 00:10:37.696] and colorful information about AA's early years that could only be supplied by a man who was actually there at the time. [00:10:37.696 – 00:10:42.956] This picture of Bill sprawled out on the floor- [00:10:43.412 – 00:10:53.952] I think we do the footnote there, Riley, if that's okay Yet another eyewitness report of W.'s casual demeanor when among friends bears additional testimony

[00:10:53.952 – 00:11:02.812] to Henrietta S.'s previously noted critical observation that Bill was never standing when he could sit, and never sitting when he could lie down. [00:11:02.812 – 00:11:13.012] That's from Ernest K. in private cor- correspondence with the author on September 16th, 2011, quoting from his April 6th, 1976 [00:11:13.012 – 00:11:15.331] interview with Henrietta S.. [00:11:15.331 – 00:11:23.392] For a published reference to that interview, see Kurtz N. God, page 315, note 63. [00:11:23.392 – 00:11:25.612] Thanks, Riley. [00:11:25.612 – 00:11:26.852] Back to you, David. [00:11:26.852 – 00:11:27.172] Thank you.

[00:11:27.172 – 00:11:37.232] So B. is, Bill is sprawled on the floor as he reads aloud from a handwritten yellow legal pad is the most captivating and compelling image we have of the group participation in the [00:11:37.232 – 00:11:38.292] editing of the Big Book. [00:11:38.292 – 00:11:48.672] B.'s story of those December nights puts the listener right in the room with W. and the other A members as they try to fine-tune their message for getting people sober [00:11:48.672 – 00:11:49.732] all across the country. [00:11:49.732 – 00:11:59.732] Since eight of the 10 explanational, explanational chapters had already been written by this time, Bill could only have been reading from his rough drafts of [00:11:59.732 – 00:12:07.692] How It W. and Into A., the two chapters which explain in detail what was involved in actually working the 12 steps. [00:12:07.692 – 00:12:16.472] Listening to this, the Clinton S. members wrangled over commas, question marks, and made some suggestions for revisions to the text.

[00:12:16.472 – 00:12:27.552] It is an appealing picture, but hardly the legendary fights, "We fought, bled, and died our way through one chapter after another," so [00:12:27.552 – 00:12:30.412] often depicted in later recountings. [00:12:30.412 – 00:12:32.192] And Riley, we have another footnote. [00:12:32.192 – 00:12:33.912] Thanks, David. [00:12:33.912 – 00:12:44.032] Bill W. was the primary source for these stories, as noted above, and in many other comments, such as his claim that when the 12 steps were presented to the meeting a few [00:12:44.032 – 00:12:47.432] days later at Clinton S., all hell broke loose. [00:12:47.432 – 00:12:48.952] This was heresy.

[00:12:48.952 – 00:12:50.652] We'd done fine on six. [00:12:50.652 – 00:12:51.572] Why 12? [00:12:51.572 – 00:12:55.872] And that's from A Main E. 1938.22. [00:12:55.872 – 00:13:01.212] Jim B.'s many talks also contributed much to this misinformation. [00:13:01.212 – 00:13:09.372] For instance, speaking in San D. on June 15th, 1957, he said that, "Bill would read the chapters to us. [00:13:09.372 – 00:13:11.292] We'd all take shots at it. [00:13:11.292 – 00:13:15.312] Well, this thing ought to be changed, that ought to be changed.

[00:13:15.312 – 00:13:21.532] So every word in that wordage of the book there was culled, double culled by alcoholic lawyers. [00:13:21.532 – 00:13:27.832] Every loophole investigated and closed." And there's a YouTube reference that follows this. [00:13:27.832 – 00:13:38.172] There definitely were big fights, first over the 12 steps, and then about the way Bill was explaining them in the two final chapters he was creating [00:13:38.172 – 00:13:38.752] for the book. [00:13:38.752 – 00:13:46.012] But those loud and contentious arguments took place at the honored dealer's office over in New York, not at the meetings in Brooklyn. [00:13:46.012 – 00:13:56.072] As R. H. later noted, the major changes made to the steps and the book were, "fought out in the office when you and Hank and Fitz and [00:13:56.072 – 00:13:59.632] I were present." And it's back to Riley with a footnote.

[00:13:59.632 – 00:14:01.412] Okay. [00:14:01.412 – 00:14:10.672] Bill supported Ruth's contention that these arguments took place in Newark, noting that present were Fitz, Henry, our grand secretary Ruth, and myself. [00:14:10.672 – 00:14:13.492] We were still arguing over the 12 steps. [00:14:13.492 – 00:14:17.952] That's from Hunter et al., Women P., page 81. [00:14:17.952 – 00:14:19.702] Back to you, David. [00:14:19.702 – 00:14:20.892] Great detail, Bill S.. [00:14:20.892 – 00:14:31.052] Rather than arguing publicly at the weekly meeting, Bill, Hank, and Fitz had wisely decided to have it out in private at the honored dealer's office, where they could be as combative

[00:14:31.052 – 00:14:38.412] and confrontational as they liked without fear of splitting the New York group into openly warring factions. [00:14:38.412 – 00:14:48.012] Jim B. consistently claimed it was the trio of Bill W., Hank P., and Fitz M. who ran AA during these early days. [00:14:48.012 – 00:14:49.972] And I go back to Riley for another footnote. [00:14:49.972 – 00:15:00.252] B. makes five specific mentions of the trio being the decision-making body in early AA, and as the evolution of Alcoholics Anonymous, [00:15:00.252 – 00:15:06.212] claiming that together they decided to quit the Oxford Group, write a book, and then publish it themselves. [00:15:06.212 – 00:15:14.952] However questionable some of these claims may be, Fitz is otherwise never specifically mentioned in relation to the book decisions. [00:15:14.952 – 00:15:20.812] These N. discussions do provide at least some supporting evidence for Jim's claim.

[00:15:20.812 – 00:15:22.792] You ready? [00:15:22.792 – 00:15:23.062] There you go. [00:15:23.062 – 00:15:24.312] I'll just start that sentence. [00:15:24.312 – 00:15:34.552] So J. B. consistently claimed it was the trio of Bill W., Hank P., and Fitz M. who ran AA during those, these early days, and Ruth's testimony about these arguments in Newark [00:15:34.552 – 00:15:38.372] certainly lent some credibility to that observation. [00:15:38.372 – 00:15:42.932] So F. loses the argument for a religious approach. [00:15:42.932 – 00:15:54.002] It was there that Fitz who, "made constant journeys to New York in order to reinforce the conservative position," pled his case for a specifically

[00:15:54.002 – 00:15:54.932] Christian book. [00:15:54.932 – 00:16:04.562] The foundations of Fitz's own recovery were deeply religious, specifically Episcopalian, and he insisted that their program of recovery had to- [00:16:04.688 – 00:16:13.768] To be explained using biblical terminology and presented as a doctrinal and explicitly Christian solution to alcoholism. [00:16:13.768 – 00:16:18.508] This approach found some support among a few other New York members. [00:16:18.508 – 00:16:28.668] Bill specifically mentions Paul K. who was, quote, "Was even more emphatic than Fitz about this," close quote, and it was surely what most [00:16:28.668 – 00:16:35.128] of the alcoholic squad in Akron would have expected to find in any book explaining how they got sober. [00:16:35.128 – 00:16:45.638] But however vehemently Fitz may have argued for his position, Bill W. had already made all the concessions he was going to make in the direction

[00:16:45.638 – 00:16:49.268] of a purely Christian solution for alcoholism. [00:16:49.268 – 00:16:59.288] Such a specifically religious approach was almost universally recognized by A members as the very thing that had thwarted the missions in all their [00:16:59.288 – 00:17:01.448] past efforts to save drunks. [00:17:01.448 – 00:17:11.628] At least on this point, W. was in complete agreement with the largest contingent in the New York group who had no problem at all with the use of the term God [00:17:11.628 – 00:17:19.348] throughout the book, but were dead set against any theological propositions or religious doctrines being mentioned. [00:17:19.348 – 00:17:29.868] While at this time the suggested road to recovery included a regular habit of reading the New T., Bill clearly recognized that such a specifically [00:17:29.868 – 00:17:39.868] Christian emphasis would sabotage, sabotage any hope they might have of successfully reaching out to agnostics and atheists, not to mention the problems

[00:17:39.868 – 00:17:43.428] it would cause for both Catholics and Jews. [00:17:43.428 – 00:17:53.488] Exactly what Bill might have said to placate Fitz M. on these issues is not known, but then no one ever described Fitz as a great debater [00:17:53.488 – 00:17:57.828] or as a man who was comfortable fighting for his own perspective. [00:17:57.828 – 00:18:08.008] Instead, M. was regularly characterized as, quote, "One of the most lovable people that AA will ever know," close quote, and a, quote, [00:18:08.008 – 00:18:13.087] "A charming, aesthetic, impractical, lovable dreamer," close quote. [00:18:13.087 – 00:18:23.088] In fact, his personality was the exact opposite of Hank P., so it seems a bit unfair to learn that Bill more or less threw Fitz to the [00:18:23.088 – 00:18:26.668] wolves by letting Hank act as his proxy in this fight.

[00:18:26.668 – 00:18:36.968] While his two primary colleagues battled, W. sat back and watched as P. and M. engaged in a, quote, "Hot, a hot argument [00:18:36.968 – 00:18:40.568] about the religious content of the coming volume," close quote. [00:18:40.568 – 00:18:44.928] It was a fight Fitz had ho- no hope of winning. [00:18:44.928 – 00:18:50.828] Hank loses the argument to completely remove God from the steps. [00:18:50.828 – 00:19:00.948] On the other hand, Bill's arguments with the much more confrontational Henry P. were so loud and antagonistic that they could not [00:19:00.948 – 00:19:02.448] escape later comment. [00:19:02.448 – 00:19:12.648] Quote, "A terrific argument ensued between Hank and me," close quote, W. said, "And it seemed to last forever." The, quote, "Heated

[00:19:12.648 – 00:19:15.888] discussion went on for days and nights," close quote. [00:19:15.888 – 00:19:20.828] Hank had absolutely no intention of conceding he might be wrong about what he wanted. [00:19:20.828 – 00:19:31.028] Once F.'s pleas for a Christian book had been successfully demolished, P. began to attack W. for his constant explicit [00:19:31.028 – 00:19:34.988] references to God in both the steps and throughout the book. [00:19:34.988 – 00:19:44.528] He was convinced this would not only drive people away from their solution, but even worse, destroy any hope of the book being a bestseller. [00:19:44.528 – 00:19:54.948] Despite the fact that so much was already written, Hank still had not given up hope that they would publish a psychological book, one that would, quote, "Lure the alcoholic [00:19:54.948 – 00:20:02.948] in," close quote, and that, quote, "Once in, the prospect could take God or leave him alone as he wished," close quote.

[00:20:02.948 – 00:20:08.208] Bill found this to be a shocking proposal and refused to even consider it. [00:20:08.208 – 00:20:15.268] W. justified his inclusion of these frequent references to God by citing his personal experience. [00:20:15.268 – 00:20:25.488] Quote, "I'd have this very sudden experience and was on the pious side, so I larded these steps very heavily with the word God," close [00:20:25.488 – 00:20:25.808] quote. [00:20:25.808 – 00:20:27.748] And we go to Riley for a footnote. [00:20:27.748 – 00:20:37.908] This is another though less explicit admission by W. that the 12 steps were mainly based on his own experience rather than the collective experience [00:20:37.908 – 00:20:38.648] of the group.

[00:20:38.648 – 00:20:40.268] David. [00:20:40.268 – 00:20:41.748] Thank you, Riley. [00:20:41.748 – 00:20:51.388] Doing so made perfect sense to Bill, and was in keeping with his, with his pensi- penchant for relying primarily on his own experience. [00:20:51.388 – 00:20:56.788] But Hank would have none of it, and they raged against each other in a fierce running battle. [00:20:56.788 – 00:21:06.208] W. called it a perfectly ferocious argument in which neither man was willing to concede an inch of ground to the other. [00:21:06.208 – 00:21:07.248] S. wills there. [00:21:07.248 – 00:21:17.588] Finally, after a hellish fight, Hank realized there was no hope of convincing Bill of these references to God should be removed from the steps, and he adopted a fallback position.

[00:21:17.588 – 00:21:25.888] Quote, "Could we at least," he argued, "get rid of this demand that people get down on their knees in the seventh step and then tone-" [00:21:26.384 – 00:21:36.494] Down the rest of this religious language by using some more general, less theological specific synonyms for the word God, P. proposed [00:21:36.494 – 00:21:46.784] using higher power and a power greater than ourselves as general open-ended substitutes, and suggested that the first appearance of the word [00:21:46.844 – 00:21:54.324] God be followed by the more expansive and explicitly flexible phrase, as we understood him. [00:21:54.324 – 00:22:04.664] Besides arguing that they needed to provide some way for agnostic and atheist alcoholics to find an entry point into the steps, Hank's strongest [00:22:04.664 – 00:22:14.874] contention for these changes would've been the fact that Bill had already used the phrases power greater than myself and God as I then understood him in his [00:22:14.874 – 00:22:15.964] own story.

[00:22:15.964 – 00:22:26.184] If these beliefs and perspectives had been so essential to W.'s own recovery, why shouldn't they be offering that same level of openness to all the new people [00:22:26.184 – 00:22:29.744] who are trying so desperately to get sober? [00:22:29.744 – 00:22:39.824] Bill did not want to change anything in the steps, and even in the face of Hank's constant and aggressive onslaught, he absolutely refused to budge on this. [00:22:39.824 – 00:22:44.524] Weren't they, after all, perfect just the way he had first written them? [00:22:44.524 – 00:22:46.784] In late June, Bill had told Dr. [00:22:46.784 – 00:22:52.584] Bob S. he was, quote, "Not suffering from any pride of authorship," close quote. [00:22:52.584 – 00:22:56.024] But that was definitely not the case six months later.

[00:22:56.024 – 00:23:06.204] W. was firmly entrenched in defending the steps exactly as he had created them, and he, quote, "Heavily resisted these objections," close quote, [00:23:06.204 – 00:23:07.404] on every front. [00:23:07.404 – 00:23:10.424] Bill was not about to change a single word. [00:23:10.424 – 00:23:16.584] So much for the I was just an umpire claim that he later made with such regularity. [00:23:16.584 – 00:23:27.104] Besides, having successfully resisted the changes F. wanted to make, how could he possibly capitulate to Hank P. and include [00:23:27.104 – 00:23:29.304] these more liberal phrases? [00:23:29.304 – 00:23:39.524] Bill finally concedes some changes, but Hank just would not give up, and after days of arguing and badgering, Bill W.

[00:23:39.524 – 00:23:41.064] finally began to weaken. [00:23:41.064 – 00:23:42.164] I'm sorry, I'll read that again. [00:23:42.164 – 00:23:49.904] But, but Hank just would not give up and, and after days of arguing and badgering, Bill W. finally began to weaken. [00:23:49.904 – 00:24:00.024] He later admitted rather sheepishly that it took a bit of persuasion, but P. relentless insistence that they had so often some of the God talk [00:24:00.024 – 00:24:06.764] was wearing him down, and he finally conceded very grudgingly to make at least some of the suggested changes. [00:24:06.764 – 00:24:12.564] Bill doggedly refused to take out the need for people to get down on their knees in the seventh step. [00:24:12.564 – 00:24:23.344] That particular requirement would not be deleted until three months later when, after several more weeks of acrimonious fighting, he finally and very reluctantly

[00:24:23.344 – 00:24:24.544] took that phrase out. [00:24:24.544 – 00:24:34.624] But he did agree to use the phrase a power greater than ourselves rather than God in the second step, and to add, as we understood him, after the word [00:24:34.624 – 00:24:40.624] God in the third step, but not to the 11th step where it would not appear until four months later. [00:24:40.624 – 00:24:45.344] That was absolutely as far as W. was willing to go. [00:24:45.344 – 00:24:51.964] He had fought tenaciously and valiantly, but Bill was not particularly gracious in defeat. [00:24:51.964 – 00:24:52.464] Uh-oh. [00:24:52.464 – 00:25:02.644] It clearly pained him to make these concessions, but he, quote, "Finally went along," close quote, all the while defending his view that the original

[00:25:02.644 – 00:25:03.864] steps were perfect. [00:25:03.864 – 00:25:13.924] It would take some time before W. realized and acknowledged how critical these phrases were to their success, and finally concede that [00:25:13.924 – 00:25:22.664] Hank P. had been right, especially about his insistence on adding, as we understood him, to the third step. [00:25:22.664 – 00:25:32.744] But Bill was always stubbornly proud of the fact that these modifications were the only changes in the 12 steps as written, and [00:25:32.744 – 00:25:37.804] that, quote, "There were no other changes in the original draft," close quote. [00:25:37.804 – 00:25:43.004] They were, he claimed, almost perfect just as he had first written them. [00:25:43.004 – 00:25:47.064] However, when Bill finally…

[00:25:47.064 – 00:25:57.084] When B. did finally realize how important these changes were, he enthusiastically embraced them, calling them a, a terrific [00:25:57.084 – 00:26:06.544] 10 strike, noting that as we understood him was perhaps the most important expression to be found in a whole AA vocabulary. [00:26:06.544 – 00:26:09.704] And Riley, there was a footnote after terrific 10 strike. [00:26:09.704 – 00:26:19.444] There was, and the, uh, phrase 10 strike refers to a perfectly thrown bowling ball, which knocks down all 10 pins at one time. [00:26:19.444 – 00:26:20.864] Thank you, Riley. [00:26:20.864 – 00:26:21.744] If you didn't know that. [00:26:21.744 – 00:26:23.624] Thank you.

[00:26:23.624 – 00:26:31.144] That and the phrase higher power, he said, had proved lifesavers for many an alcoholic. [00:26:31.144 – 00:26:40.004] They have enabled thousands of us to make a beginning where none could have been made had we left the steps just as I originally wrote them. [00:26:40.004 – 00:26:47.634] Most especially, he acknowledged that adding the phrase, as we understood him, to the third step had made a, quote- [00:26:47.720 – 00:26:54.400] But a hupe- a hope big enough so that the whole world of alcoholics can walk through it. [00:26:54.400 – 00:26:56.020] And I may say thank you for that. [00:26:56.020 – 00:27:04.100] It was a change that enabled people of fine religious training and those of none at all to associate freely and to work together. [00:27:04.100 – 00:27:07.330] It made one's religion the business of the A.A.

[00:27:07.330 – 00:27:11.120] member himself and not that of his society. [00:27:11.120 – 00:27:13.619] A tent strike indeed, really. [00:27:13.619 – 00:27:18.380] The origin, the origin of God as we understood him in question. [00:27:18.380 – 00:27:27.700] W. hardly exaggerates when he notes that God as we understood him is perhaps the most important expression to be found in A.A.'s lexicon. [00:27:27.700 – 00:27:31.490] That short phrase has made membership in A.A. [00:27:31.490 – 00:27:34.640] possible for millions of people who otherwise… [00:27:34.640 – 00:27:40.260] Millions of people actually, who otherwise would never have been able to cross over its threshold into sobriety.

[00:27:40.260 – 00:27:45.380] So who was responsible for the addition of this critical important phrase? [00:27:45.380 – 00:27:52.140] Jim, Jim B. always claimed credit for adding as we understo- stood him to the steps. [00:27:52.140 – 00:27:57.980] His earliest recorded statement on this came in a talk he gave in March 1947. [00:27:57.980 – 00:28:01.400] Then we took the God. [00:28:01.400 – 00:28:05.880] This is about the only thing I have given to this thing. [00:28:05.880 – 00:28:10.540] I said, "Bill, I'm agnostic." We had quite a tussle. [00:28:10.540 – 00:28:12.980] I'd been staying sober, so had Hank.

[00:28:12.980 – 00:28:17.980] After a time, we decided to put in there as you see it, which is my estimation… [00:28:17.980 – 00:28:22.080] If my, in my estimation is right, because you're not putting pressure on them. [00:28:22.080 – 00:28:24.280] It was the only way I could do it. [00:28:24.280 – 00:28:34.440] A year or so later, Jim heavily revised that speech into his "evolution of Alcoholics Anonymous," which noted simply that, [00:28:34.440 – 00:28:44.440] "After days of wrangling between Bill, Hank, Fitz and myself, another thing changed in this last rewriting, and that was qualifying the [00:28:44.440 – 00:28:51.800] word God with the phrase, 'As we understood him.'" This was one of my few contributions to the book. [00:28:51.800 – 00:29:02.440] Then in 1955 when his story, The Vicious Cycle, made its first appearance in the second edition of The Big Book, he made the same claim about making this

[00:29:02.440 – 00:29:05.100] contribution to their literary efforts. [00:29:05.100 – 00:29:15.160] It is interesting and important to note that in none of these instances does Jim ever claim he invented the phrase, as we understood him. [00:29:15.160 – 00:29:25.600] B. just says he was the one who insisted it be added to the third step so that atheists and agnostics would have some flexibility in interpreting [00:29:25.600 – 00:29:28.920] and then working the suggested program of recovery. [00:29:28.920 – 00:29:39.060] As already noted here, when Bill W. wrote the first two versions of his own story the previous May, that phrase had appeared in each of them. [00:29:39.060 – 00:29:48.840] In the first, he claimed Ebby had told him to "turn my face to God as I understand him" as the first step in his recovery. [00:29:48.840 – 00:29:58.920] And in the second, while describing the earlier works he took, W. said, "I humbly offered myself to God as I then understood him." Since

[00:29:58.920 – 00:30:09.280] this second version of Bill's story had been widely circulated during the previous six months, B. could hardly say he had invented this "most [00:30:09.280 – 00:30:12.780] important expression to be found" in the A.A. [00:30:12.780 – 00:30:13.560] vocabulary. [00:30:13.560 – 00:30:21.200] But he did unequivocally claim that inserting that phrase into the third step was his own contribution to the steps. [00:30:21.200 – 00:30:32.200] While J.'s claim has never been publicly challenged, there is some interesting private correspondence between Ruth H. and Bill W. in 1955 [00:30:32.200 – 00:30:34.860] calling B.'s claim into serious question. [00:30:34.860 – 00:30:44.900] Before she wrote her often quoted letter of November 10th, 1955, Ruth and Bill had already exchanged three letters in which

[00:30:44.900 – 00:30:49.160] he asked her to help clarify some historical details for him. [00:30:49.160 – 00:30:57.680] One of the questions he asked was about Jim's alleged responsibility for suggesting they put as we understood him into the steps. [00:30:57.680 – 00:31:00.500] According to his own recollections, W. said… [00:31:00.500 – 00:31:08.440] Finally, we had a big hassle in the Newark office between, as I remember, Hank, Fitz, you and me. [00:31:08.440 – 00:31:11.570] Fitz was for more God and more theology. [00:31:11.570 – 00:31:13.880] Hank was for little or none at all. [00:31:13.880 – 00:31:21.060] The result of this argument was the phrase, God as we understand him, which was of course a tent strike.

[00:31:21.060 – 00:31:24.720] Whether or not Jimmy B. was present, I can't remember. [00:31:24.720 – 00:31:31.100] In a historical piece he wrote about this period, he claimed he had great influence on the 12 steps. [00:31:31.100 – 00:31:34.700] I certainly think he had some because of his agnosticism. [00:31:34.700 – 00:31:38.120] Whether it was direct or not, I can't remember. [00:31:38.120 – 00:31:42.300] A few weeks later, Ruth's reply supported Bill's memory of those events. [00:31:42.300 – 00:31:52.300] The few things you mentioned basically agree with things as I remember them, but I'll be darned if I can remember that Jim B. ever took any [00:31:52.300 – 00:31:57.900] active part in any of the writing of The Big Book or the 12 Steps or the name of the book.

[00:31:57.900 – 00:32:08.020] Certainly, he was never in on any of the office conferences that I remember, although he undoubtedly had an effect through the endless discussion that went [00:32:08.020 – 00:32:09.020] on at meetings and homes- [00:32:09.544 – 00:32:11.924] as did everyone who came to meetings at that time. [00:32:11.924 – 00:32:21.944] Jim claimed that he, Bill, Hank, and Fitz had wrangled for days over these issues, almost certainly in the Newark office, but Root contradicted this [00:32:21.944 – 00:32:23.104] emphatically in her letter. [00:32:23.104 – 00:32:26.784] Bill was pleased to learn Root's recollection matched his own. [00:32:26.784 – 00:32:32.844] I was most happy for your testimony about Jim B.'s part in the early days.

[00:32:32.844 – 00:32:36.524] In my own mind, I've gone overboard to give him credit. [00:32:36.524 – 00:32:46.704] The story he wrote up about the early days was printed, you may know, and it has considerable circulation out on the West C. where he now is. [00:32:46.704 – 00:32:53.744] In a way, I suppose all our recollections are suspect, and there was a footnote in there about the early days. [00:32:53.744 – 00:32:55.564] Right. [00:32:55.564 – 00:33:01.944] Bill is referring here to Jim's The Evolution of Alcoholics Anonymous, A History of AA. [00:33:01.944 – 00:33:06.544] And back to Bill S., I guess. [00:33:06.544 – 00:33:16.584] In short, I don't remember it the way Jim does, and I am pleased to hear that your memories are the same as mine, but I can hardly call him out on this issue since he has made these claims

[00:33:16.584 – 00:33:17.504] so publicly. [00:33:17.504 – 00:33:27.504] Bill, ever the politician and well aware of B.'s singular status as one of the very few early members still alive and sober [00:33:27.504 – 00:33:33.164] in 1955, felt compelled to support Jim in his claim, or at least not to contradict him. [00:33:33.164 – 00:33:43.304] No matter what his own memory of the facts might be, for instance, five years later we find him making one of his typical statements about this, giving Jim credit by telling [00:33:43.304 – 00:33:51.324] an audience that, quote, this expression was coined, I think, by one of our former atheist members, close quote. [00:33:51.324 – 00:34:01.744] That, I think, was W.'s not so subtle way of noting the questionability of that claim as once again he directed attention away from himself. [00:34:01.744 – 00:34:12.124] The key question Bill had asked Root was whether or not Jim had any direct input into this decision, and neither of them could remember

[00:34:12.124 – 00:34:19.424] him being present or participating in the Newark arguments where that famous compromise was made. [00:34:19.424 – 00:34:29.504] But both of them did not, sorry, beg your pardon, but both of them did allow that B. likely had some significant indirect impact on the steps, with Bill [00:34:29.504 – 00:34:39.924] noting, quote, I certainly think he had some influence because of his agnosticism, close quote, and Root conceding he, quote, undoubtedly [00:34:39.924 – 00:34:45.044] had an effect through the endless discussions that went on at meetings and homes, close quote. [00:34:45.044 – 00:34:53.224] While J. clearly believed his own version of the story, the truth likely falls much closer to what Bill and Root remembered. [00:34:53.224 – 00:35:03.264] However, this is not to say that Jim B. did not have some substantial indirect responsibility for the inclusion of, as we understood him, in [00:35:03.264 – 00:35:08.104] the steps, but only to question some details in his own version of the story.

[00:35:08.104 – 00:35:18.104] It is highly probable, for instance, that Jim's participation in this decision occurred not only in the regular Tuesday night meetings where such [00:35:18.104 – 00:35:28.244] things were discussed in a relatively calm fashion, and perhaps even one-on-one with Bill W. before or afterwards, but also in the more insistent discussions [00:35:28.244 – 00:35:33.424] held at the P. house in Montclair where B. was staying at the time. [00:35:33.424 – 00:35:43.624] Living there gave Jim many opportunities to badger Hank about the need to tone down the God stuff and to constantly reinforce P.'s own belief [00:35:43.624 – 00:35:46.384] that less religious language should be used in the steps. [00:35:46.384 – 00:35:56.484] Hank would have been using Jim's intransigence on this issue as a file to support his own arguments with Bill over the need to make at least some concessions [00:35:56.484 – 00:36:01.244] in the steps to accommodate those drinkers who were theologically challenged.

[00:36:01.244 – 00:36:11.484] Bill later admitted as much by noting that Hank, quote, argued, he begged, he threatened, he quoted Jimmy to back him up, close quote. [00:36:11.484 – 00:36:21.904] While all the available evidence supports the fact that Hank P. was the one making the forceful arguments for the inclusion of, as [00:36:21.904 – 00:36:32.264] we understood him, into the steps, he was driven to such stridency by the constant harassment of the long-term guest at his home back in Montclair, [00:36:32.264 – 00:36:32.944] Jim B.. [00:36:32.944 – 00:36:38.684] And then we go to Akron's late review of the steps in chapter five. [00:36:38.684 – 00:36:40.184] This should be interesting. [00:36:40.184 – 00:36:43.844] There is a final question of interest that needs to be addressed.

[00:36:43.844 – 00:36:49.454] What influence and impact did Akron have on the formulation of these 12 steps? [00:36:49.454 – 00:37:00.344] Over the years, Bill W. made starkly contradictory statements about Ohio's participation in reviewing and critiquing the 12 steps. [00:37:00.344 – 00:37:05.124] In one talk, he said, quote, out in Akron, they kind of went along with it, close quote. [00:37:05.124 – 00:37:12.224] While in another, he noted, quote, out in Akron, the drunks ripped them 12 steps all in small pieces, close quote. [00:37:12.224 – 00:37:20.304] In his usual inaccurate fashion, Bill was likely referring to different time frames or perhaps to different people's reactions. [00:37:20.304 – 00:37:29.454] Whatever the case might be, on the face of it, these two comments are impossible to reconcile without much more contemporary information. [00:37:30.780 – 00:37:40.900] In his 1957 book, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, Bill claimed that both Paul and Dick S. saw the 12 steps early on, and they both, quote,

[00:37:40.900 – 00:37:43.520] "liked the new steps very much," close quote. [00:37:43.520 – 00:37:52.340] But the Stanley brothers could have seen the steps, could not have seen the steps until sometime after the middle of December 1938. [00:37:52.340 – 00:38:02.430] Like everyone else in Ohio, they had to wait for Bill to finish writing chapters five and six, How It W. and Into A., before they would be given the opportunity to review [00:38:02.430 – 00:38:03.240] the new steps. [00:38:03.240 – 00:38:10.320] By that time, the number and most of the wording in them were almost a foregone conclusion. [00:38:10.320 – 00:38:18.940] Indisputable evidence for this late arrival of the steps in Ohio comes from Bill W.'s December the 13th letter to Dr. [00:38:18.940 – 00:38:28.980] Bob S. in which he addresses several issues, but which makes it clear they have not spoken or otherwise communicated since they had last talked on Bill's

[00:38:28.980 – 00:38:30.900] birthday, November 26th. [00:38:30.900 – 00:38:36.880] "Dear B., you have probably already heard from Frank A.. [00:38:36.880 – 00:38:39.780] The matter re- the matter required Mr. [00:38:39.780 – 00:38:47.040] R.'s signature, and it was his secretary who messed up the play by throwing your little document into her wastebasket. [00:38:47.040 – 00:38:49.399] Frank tells me he has sent you another. [00:38:49.399 – 00:38:54.680] But it was so wonderful to have your phone call followed by all those telegrams. [00:38:54.680 – 00:39:01.960] Not a one had come in at, at the time I heard your voice over the wire, but they piled in soon after in quantity.

[00:39:01.960 – 00:39:06.960] I wish I had the addresses of all those who sent them so I could acknowledge every one. [00:39:06.960 – 00:39:17.040] But I certainly do want to thank you and all the rest of the folks so much, and I hope you will be sure that every single one knows how I appreciated those wires. [00:39:17.040 – 00:39:21.000] It's the kind of thing that makes you think life is worthwhile. [00:39:21.000 – 00:39:24.120] God bless you all for thinking of me. [00:39:24.120 – 00:39:28.880] On the book, we are going hell B. for election. [00:39:28.880 – 00:39:34.260] It is practically complete, and I will send you the rest of the chapters within two or three days. [00:39:34.260 – 00:39:44.890] Next step is to make af- n- the next step to, is to make, after one editing, photolithic copies of the whole works." Got

[00:39:44.890 – 00:39:45.940] a footnote there. [00:39:45.940 – 00:39:55.940] The printing process used for making the multilith trial edition of the book is sometimes called photolithic, as it is here, and also [00:39:55.940 – 00:39:59.239] mimeograph in other contemporary correspondence. [00:39:59.239 – 00:40:01.060] Back to you, Jim. [00:40:01.060 – 00:40:02.780] Thank you, Reilly. [00:40:02.780 – 00:40:12.820] "There will be plenty of copies for everyone, and then there will be no excuse for people not saying what they think, or as the wedding ceremony says, forever hold thy [00:40:12.820 – 00:40:13.220] peace.

[00:40:13.220 – 00:40:17.860] The money situation is not too bad, but it could be an awful lot better. [00:40:17.860 – 00:40:20.620] Nothing to worry about right at this minute. [00:40:20.620 – 00:40:24.580] Don't think I shall be able to get out there for two or three weeks. [00:40:24.580 – 00:40:26.820] Send in what stories you have. [00:40:26.820 – 00:40:29.380] Thanks once more for the birthday greetings. [00:40:29.380 – 00:40:31.480] They put up a lot of heart in me. [00:40:31.480 – 00:40:41.860] Yours, Bill." Bob and the rest of the Akron mem- members were going to see the fin- the two final chapters of the book as soon as they were completed.

[00:40:41.860 – 00:40:49.960] But since they wouldn't be ready for mailing for another two or three days, the earliest they could have arrived in Ohio was December 17th or 18th. [00:40:49.960 – 00:40:59.240] Once there, they would be shown to the people Bob had decided were most favorable to the book project as opposed to those who condemned it out of hand. [00:40:59.240 – 00:41:09.340] Among that select group were the Stanleys, who Bill had said, quote, "continued to report their approval," close quote, once, quote, "the remainder of the book [00:41:09.340 – 00:41:12.020] text was developed based on the 12 steps," close quote. [00:41:12.020 – 00:41:17.300] Whenever those chapters did arrive in Ohio, they caused a stir among the folks who read them. [00:41:17.300 – 00:41:23.140] Clarence S.'s wife, Dorothy, recalled, quote, "I'll never forget the time the fifth chapter came out. [00:41:23.140 – 00:41:25.150] Our, our fifth chapter.

[00:41:25.150 – 00:41:31.240] I was staying all night with the S., and Anne and I sat up and we read the thing until 4:00 in the morning. [00:41:31.240 – 00:41:33.460] And we thought, 'Now this is it. [00:41:33.460 – 00:41:37.000] This is really gonna bring people in,'" close quote. [00:41:37.000 – 00:41:41.280] Unfortunately, Dorothy fails to mention exactly where Clarence and Dr. [00:41:41.280 – 00:41:46.260] Bob might have been that night, or what they thought of the new chapter and of the 12 steps. [00:41:46.260 – 00:41:56.500] But Akron's real chance to review this new material wouldn't come until after the whole works had been professionally edited and multi-lit [00:41:56.500 – 00:42:01.840] copies of the book had been printed up for general distr- distribution to all AA members.

[00:42:01.840 – 00:42:08.260] Once that happened, the Ohio members who were still firmly attached to the Oxford Group were not pleased. [00:42:08.260 – 00:42:18.750] They were, quote, "disappointed," close quote, that, quote, that there was no mention of the Oxford Group in the book, close quote, and that the 12 steps had replaced the four absolutes, [00:42:18.750 – 00:42:20.390] which were not mentioned either. [00:42:20.390 – 00:42:29.020] It was certainly not an unexpected response, and it is one that lingers in Akron right up until the present day. [00:42:29.020 – 00:42:30.760] Wow. [00:42:30.760 – 00:42:33.720] The evangelical approach of the original 12 step. [00:42:33.720 – 00:42:43.840] While further changes would be made to the 12 steps as they neared their final publication date on April 10th, 1939,

[00:42:43.840 – 00:42:52.230] and even beyond that point, one striking feature of Bill W.'s original version received little comment at the time, and in later writings- [00:42:52.406 – 00:42:53.116] about the steps. [00:42:53.116 – 00:43:03.306] As the trio focused their fight on Bill's insistence that people kneel down to ask for the removal of their shortcomings, [00:43:03.306 – 00:43:13.716] and on the advisability of using less religious substitutes for the word God, no objections seem to have been raised about the universal evangelical approach [00:43:13.716 – 00:43:18.536] that was explicitly advocated in W.'s final step. [00:43:18.536 – 00:43:28.656] As B. first wrote it, the 12 steps said, "Having had a spiritual experience as the result of this course of action, [00:43:28.656 – 00:43:38.876] we tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs." The

[00:43:38.876 – 00:43:41.926] idea that this spiritual experience, i.e. [00:43:41.926 – 00:43:52.216] the direct result of working the steps, could then be spread not only to alcoholics but also to all others, was a lingering remnant of the Oxford Group's [00:43:52.216 – 00:44:00.296] overarching goal of expanding until they had revolutionized American society and eventually the rest of the world. [00:44:00.296 – 00:44:10.516] While the need to practice these principles in all our affairs was something under the, the direct control of each individual, the plan to also carry this message [00:44:10.516 – 00:44:16.076] of spiritual awakening to non-alcoholics is ambitious in the extreme. [00:44:16.076 – 00:44:27.096] It harkens back strongly to the sentiments Bill once described as overwhelming them during the counting noses meeting in Akron in October 1937. [00:44:27.096 – 00:44:34.796] "Once this spectacular notion of rapid growth grip- gripped us, our thinking underwent a sudden change.

[00:44:34.796 – 00:44:38.396] Our alcoholic imagination certainly had a field day. [00:44:38.396 – 00:44:44.616] By temperament, most of us are salesmen, promoters, so we began talking very big. [00:44:44.616 – 00:44:47.776] Mere boxcar numbers wouldn't do. [00:44:47.776 – 00:44:49.116] We went astronomical. [00:44:49.116 – 00:44:57.396] Undoubtedly, we said this was the beginning of one of the greatest medical, religious, and social developments of all time. [00:44:57.396 – 00:45:01.496] We would show the medical profession and the sky pilots where they got off. [00:45:01.496 – 00:45:06.756] A million alcoholics in America, more millions all over the world.

[00:45:06.756 – 00:45:14.296] Why, we only had to sober up all these boys and girls and, and sell them God, whereupon they would revolutionize society. [00:45:14.296 – 00:45:17.176] A brand new world with ex-drunks running it. [00:45:17.176 – 00:45:20.276] Just think of that, folks." Wow. [00:45:20.276 – 00:45:30.496] W. was a man of vision, and as he looked into the future he saw the possibility of Alcoholics Anonymous not only impacting drunks all across the country, [00:45:30.496 – 00:45:35.136] but also a majority of the population that had no problem whatsoever with their drinking. [00:45:35.136 – 00:45:38.996] This was pure late 1930s Bill W.. [00:45:38.996 – 00:45:49.016] Fortunately, the phrase "to others, especially alcoholics" was changed to include only alcoholics before the steps saw the full light of day

[00:45:49.016 – 00:45:51.596] in the published version of the book. [00:45:51.596 – 00:45:55.016] And that is us completed for today. [00:45:55.016 – 00:45:56.916] Thank you for your attention. [00:45:56.916 – 00:45:57.736] Thank you, David. [00:45:57.736 – 00:45:58.696] Thank you, David. [00:45:58.696 – 00:45:59.496] Great job. [00:45:59.496 – 00:45:59.936] Thank you.

[00:45:59.936 – 00:46:00.906] Thank you, David. [00:46:00.906 – 00:46:03.236] Brilliant as always with those walks. [00:46:03.236 – 00:46:04.525] Thank you. [00:46:04.525 – 00:46:05.356] Thank you, everybody. [00:46:05.356 – 00:46:06.335] That was wonderful. [00:46:06.335 – 00:46:11.585] It's so great, the Bill W- Bill S. is so great to read ah- Yeah … [00:46:11.585 – 00:46:12.296] it's wonderful …

[00:46:12.296 – 00:46:12.816] great meeting you guys. [00:46:12.816 – 00:46:16.456] What work Bill S. has done. [00:46:16.456 – 00:46:18.016] What, what work you've done, Bill. [00:46:18.016 – 00:46:18.996] It's extraordinary. [00:46:18.996 – 00:46:21.676] Every time I read it, every time I read it, it's extraordinary. [00:46:21.676 – 00:46:24.376] We're gonna go straight to, uh, Jim W.. [00:46:24.376 – 00:46:27.236] Uh, Jim, you put on a different hat now and we'll go to you.

[00:46:27.236 – 00:46:28.436] All right. [00:46:28.436 – 00:46:31.076] My name is Jim and I'm an alcoholic, and welcome everyone. [00:46:31.076 – 00:46:34.036] We're gonna go to, uh, the Q&A in just a minute. [00:46:34.036 – 00:46:39.056] I wanna remind you that, uh, the questions and answers should be if you are… [00:46:39.056 – 00:46:40.616] Please mute yourselves. [00:46:40.616 – 00:46:46.076] Uh, Jim, I'll mute everyone and then we'll go back to, uh, uh- Okay. [00:46:46.076 – 00:46:49.116] There you go, Jim.

[00:46:49.116 – 00:46:50.636] You, you unmute and you're good. [00:46:50.636 – 00:46:52.516] Okay. [00:46:52.516 – 00:47:01.756] I wanna remind you that this is not a discussion meeting, this is just a question and answers for the author, Bill S., about what we read today. [00:47:01.756 – 00:47:07.476] We can have other discussions in the meeting after the meeting, but for right now let's keep it just on that. [00:47:07.476 – 00:47:15.036] And before we go to the Q&A, I see we got lots of Qs and As up there, but before we do that we'll go to Mr. [00:47:15.036 – 00:47:17.876] Schebler to make his, uh, some comments. [00:47:17.876 – 00:47:21.156] Yeah, just, Jim asked me if I wanted to make a comment.

[00:47:21.156 – 00:47:22.876] I, I've always got comments to make. [00:47:22.876 – 00:47:23.456] Thank you, Jim. [00:47:23.456 – 00:47:25.996] Uh, Dave, I'm g- I'm so… [00:47:25.996 – 00:47:33.936] I mean, your enthusiasm for this book is, is, is unbounding and I appreciate it, but I gotta tell you, I haven't read this in a while and I'm thinking, "Damn, this is good stuff." You know? [00:47:33.936 – 00:47:34.086] It's good stuff. [00:47:34.086 – 00:47:42.266] So anyhow, uh, I just, uh, this, this last little bit here about, about the other out- others, you know, all the others. [00:47:42.266 – 00:47:45.146] And then that quote from W. about hi- what he wrote.

[00:47:45.146 – 00:47:53.076] He actually wrote that in a, in a, in a Grapevine article, uh, about what he was thinking at that time, how they were just gonna, they were gonna save the world. [00:47:53.076 – 00:48:02.096] I just got a, a, a book I'd never heard of before called The Eight Points of the Oxford Group, which was originally published in 1935. [00:48:02.096 – 00:48:05.876] And, uh, and I, and I started reading it and, I mean, I was just… [00:48:05.876 – 00:48:10.296] The foreword's, I don't know, eight or 10 pages long, and these people were taking over the world. [00:48:10.296 – 00:48:11.356] That was their project. [00:48:11.356 – 00:48:13.686] They were gonna take over the world, and it was just- [00:48:14.292 – 00:48:15.332] So explicit.

[00:48:15.332 – 00:48:19.382] I, I, I was, I was, I was, uh, I was taken aback by it, to tell you the truth. [00:48:19.382 – 00:48:20.832] I didn't realize they were… [00:48:20.832 – 00:48:24.712] I knew they were evangelical, but, uh, but anyhow. [00:48:24.712 – 00:48:26.372] So yeah, that was just, just one thing. [00:48:26.372 – 00:48:36.492] Uh, the other thing was all the arg- you know, as you noted, the first chapter in my book is called Challenging the Creationists, and I just kept stumbling over [00:48:36.492 – 00:48:41.272] things going on throughout the whole research process. [00:48:41.272 – 00:48:43.712] And, and most especially, I just hate…

[00:48:43.712 – 00:48:47.872] I mean, it's, it's hard to give up these stories you've been heard for over 30, 40 years, you know? [00:48:47.872 – 00:48:51.171] Um, this whole story about the, the… [00:48:51.171 – 00:48:54.932] Jimmy B. always talked about, you know, it was like blood on the floor arguing about this book. [00:48:54.932 – 00:48:56.572] He literally said there was a quote there. [00:48:56.572 – 00:49:01.032] You know, we took it apart page by page, paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence, word by word. [00:49:01.032 – 00:49:07.152] I mean, it was just all these AA lawyers, and it was like I couldn't find any evidence for that happening at all in meetings. [00:49:07.152 – 00:49:13.752] And, uh, matter of fact, W. has those, those wonderful quotes that says, "I can't get people to, to, to give me any grief about this thing," you know?

[00:49:13.752 – 00:49:14.692] Really. [00:49:14.692 – 00:49:19.632] So anyhow, it was just, that was just one of those, one of those bad stumbling blocks for me. [00:49:19.632 – 00:49:29.812] I, I had a very, very hard time coming around to accepting the point of view that I, that I've presented here in the book because it, it just, it so radically contradicted [00:49:29.812 – 00:49:33.152] everything I'd ever been told in my, uh, my years of sobriety. [00:49:33.152 – 00:49:40.352] So I hope, I hope other people can get to the same place, 'cause I think it's the right place to be. [00:49:40.352 – 00:49:43.552] But, but that's just, that's my opinion, so thanks. [00:49:43.552 – 00:49:46.192] Thank you, Bill, for getting us off.

[00:49:46.192 – 00:49:56.332] Uh, I, I particularly enjoyed, I didn't see a footnote, maybe you'd put it before, in that last quote by Bill on that last page, uh, you know, where he mentions sky [00:49:56.332 – 00:49:57.032] pilots. [00:49:57.032 – 00:49:57.692] Yeah. [00:49:57.692 – 00:49:57.952] You know? [00:49:57.952 – 00:49:59.712] That's wh- that's what he called preachers. [00:49:59.712 – 00:50:00.732] Yeah. [00:50:00.732 – 00:50:00.762] Yeah.

[00:50:00.762 – 00:50:02.752] That's what he called preachers and ministers. [00:50:02.752 – 00:50:04.372] He called them sky pilots. [00:50:04.372 – 00:50:04.712] Yeah. [00:50:04.712 – 00:50:15.832] And I, and I guess you did see that on page 464, unless that's a, uh, direct quote from Jimmy's, um, uh, [00:50:15.832 – 00:50:17.052] recording. [00:50:17.052 – 00:50:19.172] Call from Steven F.. [00:50:19.172 – 00:50:20.052] Yeah.

[00:50:20.052 – 00:50:22.532] Yeah, that's, that's a direct quote from Jimmy's recording. [00:50:22.532 – 00:50:24.551] Call from- That's why it didn't make much sense. [00:50:24.551 – 00:50:24.912] Okay. [00:50:24.912 – 00:50:29.472] All right, uh, we'll go to the Q&A now. [00:50:29.472 – 00:50:39.672] Um, I'm gonna go to one, uh, that, uh, was sent to me, uh, first, and, uh, uh, the question, Bill, is Ohio's continued resentment is [00:50:39.672 – 00:50:40.772] interesting. [00:50:40.772 – 00:50:42.252] Can you speak briefly on it?

[00:50:42.252 – 00:50:49.732] You know, someone once said, "I gave an hour speech. [00:50:49.732 – 00:50:56.812] If I'd had more time to work on it, you know, it would've been a very short speech." But, uh, I don't know. [00:50:56.812 – 00:51:06.912] I mean, the first time I went out to Ohio to do research, people were badgering me, literally badgering me, about the, trying to make sure I was gonna, I was gonna put the four absolutes [00:51:06.912 – 00:51:07.552] in this book. [00:51:07.552 – 00:51:13.892] And, and, and, and, you know, lobby for the four absolutes, which are missing in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:51:13.892 – 00:51:15.592] So I was supposed to be doing that, you know? [00:51:15.592 – 00:51:18.072] And I was like, "No, I don't think I'm doing that.

[00:51:18.072 – 00:51:23.472] You know, I'm just gonna sidestep that issue." But literally we're talking, I was out there, you know, what, what are… [00:51:23.472 – 00:51:26.852] talking about 2012 or something like that. [00:51:26.852 – 00:51:28.352] 2012. [00:51:28.352 – 00:51:34.692] And, uh, there are still people out there who are complaining about th- our book. [00:51:34.692 – 00:51:41.192] And, uh, and all you gotta do is read any one of the 20 to 30 books written by Dick B. [00:51:41.192 – 00:51:51.192] to, to, to realize that, uh, that, uh, there's a, there's a, there's a large contingent of people out there who, who do believe that, you know, if we just got back [00:51:51.192 – 00:52:00.012] to doing it the way Akron did it in 1938, if we just got people down on their knees and surrendering to Jesus, we'd be getting 95% of the people sober.

[00:52:00.012 – 00:52:05.292] I have a hard time with that on, on many, many different levels. [00:52:05.292 – 00:52:08.652] But nothing that I can talk about shortly or quickly. [00:52:08.652 – 00:52:09.132] Thanks. [00:52:09.132 – 00:52:10.852] Tha- thank you, Bill. [00:52:10.852 – 00:52:12.692] Now we'll go to, uh, Nathan. [00:52:12.692 – 00:52:14.292] Thanks. [00:52:14.292 – 00:52:19.152] I jotted down my question, Bill, so that it wouldn't be too long.

[00:52:19.152 – 00:52:19.742] Thank you. [00:52:19.742 – 00:52:21.892] And then I thought of another question. [00:52:21.892 – 00:52:31.952] But Fayette Griffiths taught Bill to be skeptical about the self-righteous hypocrites at the church across the street from [00:52:31.952 – 00:52:33.212] the W. Hotel. [00:52:33.212 – 00:52:34.512] I think that's true. [00:52:34.512 – 00:52:39.452] Where then did Bill get his hide-bound Christianity? [00:52:39.452 – 00:52:42.912] When he was in combat in the First W. War?

[00:52:42.912 – 00:52:44.112] That's possible. [00:52:44.112 – 00:52:47.892] When, uh, he was talking to Sam S.? [00:52:47.892 – 00:52:50.512] Was it from Father D.? [00:52:50.512 – 00:52:59.252] And where did Bill get his religious emphasis, when I think he didn't start with it? [00:52:59.252 – 00:53:01.602] I, I would agree with that, Nathan. [00:53:01.602 – 00:53:02.472] I would, I would… [00:53:02.472 – 00:53:03.852] That, that sounds exactly right.

[00:53:03.852 – 00:53:05.532] But let, we gotta remember a couple of things. [00:53:05.532 – 00:53:10.532] He was, for instance, the whole Winchester C. thing before he went over to France, uh, when he was in England. [00:53:10.532 – 00:53:12.372] He wasn't there to see Jane A.'s grave. [00:53:12.372 – 00:53:14.932] He was there because it was Winchester C.. [00:53:14.932 – 00:53:20.372] And, uh, I actually went there to see Jane A.'s grave myself, but that's a different story. [00:53:20.372 – 00:53:25.692] Um, the other thing was he was, he was deep into the Oxford Group. [00:53:25.692 – 00:53:29.572] From, from the beginning of his sobriety, he was deep into the Oxford Group.

[00:53:29.572 – 00:53:35.212] He was as deeply into the Oxford Group in New York City as they were in Akron, right up until, until- [00:53:35.428 – 00:53:39.008] Early '37, April or May, when they, when they quit the Oxford Group. [00:53:39.008 – 00:53:41.648] And, and he, you know, he was, he was going to house parties. [00:53:41.648 – 00:53:47.148] He was, he was doing, uh, these small groups where they were, they were getting together and, uh, and meditating. [00:53:47.148 – 00:53:48.588] They were doing quiet time together. [00:53:48.588 – 00:53:52.248] They were getting, they were getting, uh, you know, uh, guidance. [00:53:52.248 – 00:53:53.927] And the guidance didn't come from, from…

[00:53:53.927 – 00:53:56.548] I, I didn't sit in guidance to get Bill S. guidance. [00:53:56.548 – 00:54:01.988] I, I sat in, uh, in, in, in, uh, in, in meditation and got guidance for David, you know? [00:54:01.988 – 00:54:05.088] And I had to tell David what my great idea was for what he should be doing. [00:54:05.088 – 00:54:08.168] So there was, he, he was deep into that. [00:54:08.168 – 00:54:13.238] And it wasn't just two months or three months, it was, it was a couple of years he was doing that with real… [00:54:13.238 – 00:54:18.948] I was reading Lois's diary the other day again, and, and she's got all these little notes, you know, that she's been… [00:54:18.948 – 00:54:20.608] wasn't accused of.

[00:54:20.608 – 00:54:22.368] There's a word that they used all the time. [00:54:22.368 – 00:54:28.768] I forget what the Oxford Group word was, but it was, it was people pointing out to her things that she was doing wrong, you know? [00:54:28.768 – 00:54:31.588] And, and so they were, they were deep into that. [00:54:31.588 – 00:54:34.488] And, and, and I do believe that's exactly where that stuff came from. [00:54:34.488 – 00:54:38.268] 'Cause you're right, he certainly didn't grow up with that kind of religious training at all. [00:54:38.268 – 00:54:39.587] Thank you, Bill. [00:54:39.587 – 00:54:42.648] Well, at least he learned how to make boomerangs from Fayette.

[00:54:42.648 – 00:54:43.628] Exactly. [00:54:43.628 – 00:54:47.548] And you confirm for me that you blame Sam for that. [00:54:47.548 – 00:54:57.968] Uh, second question that came out that's not unrelated in my opinion, is at the very end of your chapter you were talking about [00:54:57.968 – 00:54:58.568] others. [00:54:58.568 – 00:55:05.158] Uh, i- alcoholics and other, or others, especially alcoholics, or something like that. [00:55:05.158 – 00:55:15.248] And I think there's a difference between the word that you choose quite properly, evangelical, and the other one that's implied in [00:55:15.248 – 00:55:17.348] selfishness, self-centeredness.

[00:55:17.348 – 00:55:18.888] That we believe, et cetera. [00:55:18.888 – 00:55:26.668] Because a radical change in us in recovery is from being self-centered to caring about others. [00:55:26.668 – 00:55:37.108] Uh, so I think that our, whatever process came about, and you're the one who knows more than almost the world about it, [00:55:37.108 – 00:55:46.027] to take out the phrase "and others," uh, at least it gives us a clue about what we thought. [00:55:46.027 – 00:55:56.228] Egotistical save the world, or inclusive rather than exclusive, saying we've got something [00:55:56.228 – 00:56:00.068] that's useful and valuable, let's share it. [00:56:00.068 – 00:56:02.768] End of my questions.

[00:56:02.768 – 00:56:04.817] I appreciate it, Bill. [00:56:04.817 – 00:56:05.548] We'll see you later. [00:56:05.548 – 00:56:05.678] Thank you. [00:56:05.678 – 00:56:05.988] Thank you. [00:56:05.988 – 00:56:09.288] Uh, Dennis, what is your question? [00:56:09.288 – 00:56:12.228] You know me. [00:56:12.228 – 00:56:14.228] Uh, I'm Dennis.

[00:56:14.228 – 00:56:15.068] I'm out of town. [00:56:15.068 – 00:56:17.208] Bill, thank you for writing this. [00:56:17.208 – 00:56:25.128] And, you know, I've, I've had this list of four rules to live by, and I thought they were original. [00:56:25.128 – 00:56:25.817] I made them up. [00:56:25.817 – 00:56:33.268] But the more I go into AA, the more I found I learned it in AA and stuff, just like your discovery of going to AA. [00:56:33.268 – 00:56:43.108] And, um, I can relate to Bidwell or B., that, uh, he might have changed one word and took credit for the whole thing, and it's just like that. [00:56:43.108 – 00:56:50.848] So why, while you were writing this, you must have had one hell of a job re-referencing all this stuff.

[00:56:50.848 – 00:56:52.788] And I'd like to know how you handled that. [00:56:52.788 – 00:56:57.948] Well, I, I, I… [00:56:57.948 – 00:57:02.048] You know, they won't let you copy things at the archives, GSO or Stepping S.. [00:57:02.048 – 00:57:10.288] So I had to type up every word on every piece of paper at GSO for 1937, 1938, and a half, first six months of 1939. [00:57:10.288 – 00:57:11.808] It's almost 400 pages long. [00:57:11.808 – 00:57:15.028] So I always had something that I could go back to. [00:57:15.028 – 00:57:25.028] And, and I, I, I knew I needed to have clear, concise trail of evidence here because I knew I was dealing with alcoholics,

[00:57:25.028 – 00:57:27.008] and I was telling them stories they didn't want to hear. [00:57:27.008 – 00:57:33.718] So, um, so that's, that's, that's really what I was, I was, I was doing with those, with those things. [00:57:33.718 – 00:57:39.708] Which is why we ended up with, if there were informational things, I put them in the footnotes that Riley gets to read. [00:57:39.708 – 00:57:45.068] There's 416 footnotes in this book, but there's 1,570 endnotes. [00:57:45.068 – 00:57:46.248] Geez. [00:57:46.248 – 00:57:56.338] So if, uh, if you think I got something wrong, I mean, I, I'm, I don't claim reading all this stuff perfectly or drawing conclusions that are, that are completely, [00:57:56.338 – 00:57:58.388] uh, infallible, you know?

[00:57:58.388 – 00:58:01.188] It's just a, it's my best shot at some of this stuff. [00:58:01.188 – 00:58:10.328] And, um, and if, if you could find a better reading of something that I've already read improperly or if you can find a new document, I'm, uh, I'm looking for that. [00:58:10.328 – 00:58:13.308] I, I think you've done a wonderful job on this. [00:58:13.308 – 00:58:15.628] And I, I got one more question. [00:58:15.628 – 00:58:20.328] How many boxes of information do you have stacked up in your garage with this? [00:58:20.328 – 00:58:25.568] I, I do have a ton of stuff in the back, and it's not organized. [00:58:25.568 – 00:58:26.588] It's just a mess.

[00:58:26.588 – 00:58:28.908] I go back there looking for stuff, and I can't find it. [00:58:28.908 – 00:58:31.328] But, but I, I don't have to go back there too often. [00:58:31.328 – 00:58:33.758] But one of the questions is, like, they came up… [00:58:33.758 – 00:58:38.108] I was talking to Kevin H., who did, uh, with Dan C., did the documentary Bill W. [00:58:38.108 – 00:58:39.508] We were talking about that. [00:58:39.508 – 00:58:46.568] And I, he, he suggested that maybe I wanted to, wanted to give it to, uh, B. University where, where all of Ernie K.'s stuff is. [00:58:46.568 – 00:58:47.768] That's where Ernie's stuff is.

[00:58:47.768 – 00:58:49.518] Uh, and, uh- Yeah, I think that- … [00:58:49.518 – 00:58:50.348] I thought, "Now," I hadn't thought about that. [00:58:50.348 – 00:58:54.268] I thought, "Now, that's a damn good idea." Because you can go to B. University and get copies made. [00:58:54.268 – 00:58:56.738] And you can't get copies made if it goes to G- [00:58:56.892 – 00:58:59.472] PSO or stepping stone, so Thank you. [00:58:59.472 – 00:59:00.972] Thank, thank you, Bill. [00:59:00.972 – 00:59:03.412] And we'll go to Alex S.

[00:59:03.412 – 00:59:11.972] I think that's a really good idea because Rowland was a senator, uh, for Rhode I. for a couple months. [00:59:11.972 – 00:59:15.792] But anyway, thank you, um, so much. [00:59:15.792 – 00:59:18.112] Uh, this is really, really interesting. [00:59:18.112 – 00:59:26.552] Um, I already purchased the audio version through Apple or Amazon, uh, whatever, so I'm really looking forward to it. [00:59:26.552 – 00:59:36.432] In your research, um, I know Rowland never joined AA, and I wasn't sure why, but now it's, you know, now it's kind of making sense. [00:59:36.432 – 00:59:44.972] Is there any, um, documentation of correspondence between Bill and Rowland? [00:59:44.972 – 00:59:50.792] 'Cause, um, Bill talks of Rowland's experience with Dr.

[00:59:50.792 – 01:00:00.832] Carl J. in Zurich in between 1960- 1926 and 1930, and then he [01:00:00.832 – 01:00:09.852] got sober within the Oxford Group and Emmanuel C. in Boston, I think, for a few years, maybe tossed around. [01:00:09.852 – 01:00:20.762] Um, and then got Ebby sober through the Oxford Group in Vermont, and he came down two months later when W. was [01:00:20.762 – 01:00:22.032] with, in S.'s- Yeah, yeah … [01:00:22.032 – 01:00:23.832] hospital with belladonna treatment. [01:00:23.832 – 01:00:35.552] But do you have any documentation of S. and W.'s relationship and how, um, [01:00:35.552 – 01:00:44.012] h- Rowland, who is such a pivotal part, story, and experience, and doctor, Dr.

[01:00:44.012 – 01:00:51.092] J., got into Bill's Big Book, which is fascinating, I think, if you know about Dr. [01:00:51.092 – 01:00:51.472] J.. [01:00:51.472 – 01:00:58.392] Just as fascinating as William J., who's a biologist, who must have been the inventor of the footnote. [01:00:58.392 – 01:01:00.912] By the way, I love your footnotes. [01:01:00.912 – 01:01:05.972] They're as interesting as the literature itself, and thank you. [01:01:05.972 – 01:01:14.292] But the question, short question: any evidence of correspondence of Rowland and W.'s, um- Thank you. [01:01:14.292 – 01:01:14.632] Thank you …

[01:01:14.632 – 01:01:18.342] Rowland sharing- No, no, no, no, Alex, I've never, I've never seen any letters between them. [01:01:18.342 – 01:01:22.002] I've never heard of any letters between them, which is not to say that letters- Right … [01:01:22.002 – 01:01:23.932] between them might not show up at some point. [01:01:23.932 – 01:01:31.312] Um, and we've, we've had a couple of those revelations just 10 years ago where some new, new cache of documents showed up that were really important. [01:01:31.312 – 01:01:41.332] But, um, it, the, the best thing about, about the, the Carl J./Rowland H. thing has been done by Cora F. in a, in a long paper she wrote called Stellar F., [01:01:41.332 – 01:01:43.072] which you can find online. [01:01:43.072 – 01:01:49.512] It's a, she's done tremendous primary document research on that whole backstory about when did that happen- Right …

[01:01:49.512 – 01:01:52.112] and how did that happen and, uh, and everything else. [01:01:52.112 – 01:01:55.512] That's, uh, it, it's, it's really, really, really fascinating. [01:01:55.512 – 01:02:04.832] And I know Jay, my friend Jay S., has done a bunch of stuff on, uh, he, he, he pays more attention to Rowland, I mean, to, uh, well, to Rowland also because he was an Oxford Group guy. [01:02:04.832 – 01:02:05.012] Right. [01:02:05.012 – 01:02:05.552] Yeah. [01:02:05.552 – 01:02:11.112] And, uh, one of the, one of the reasons I don't think he ever came into AA is because in the Oxford Group if, if you had a couple of drinks it was okay. [01:02:11.112 – 01:02:12.552] It was okay.

[01:02:12.552 – 01:02:17.312] They weren't, they weren't about abstinence and, and, you know, complete sobriety. [01:02:17.312 – 01:02:23.492] They, they, they were about, you know, acting properly and being s- being spiritual people, and they didn't think a couple drinks- He's just saying that. [01:02:23.492 – 01:02:26.012] They didn't think, they didn't think a couple of drinks got in the way of that. [01:02:26.012 – 01:02:28.112] So I'm sure wrote that appeal to Rowland. [01:02:28.112 – 01:02:29.112] Anyhow, thank you. [01:02:29.112 – 01:02:29.472] Nice. [01:02:29.472 – 01:02:29.722] Nice.

[01:02:29.722 – 01:02:30.752] Thank you, Bill. [01:02:30.752 – 01:02:31.372] Thank you. [01:02:31.372 – 01:02:31.722] Thank you very much. [01:02:31.722 – 01:02:34.532] And, uh, we'll go to Talitha in Panama. [01:02:34.532 – 01:02:38.202] Hi, I'm Talitha. [01:02:38.202 – 01:02:39.372] I'm an alcoholic. [01:02:39.372 – 01:02:45.542] Thank you, Bill, for this masterpiece, and thank you David and Riley and to all the readers.

[01:02:45.542 – 01:02:55.592] Um, I, I may have missed this, but, like, I just wanted to ask on, on page 469, I think you said [01:02:55.592 – 01:02:59.392] that that paragraph came from the Grapevine? [01:02:59.392 – 01:03:01.312] Yes. [01:03:01.312 – 01:03:02.172] Yes. [01:03:02.172 – 01:03:09.732] There's a story in the Grapevine called The Book is Born, and if you go to the bibliography in my book it'll tell you which issue of the Grapevine it is. [01:03:09.732 – 01:03:12.692] And c- and the year? [01:03:12.692 – 01:03:15.462] I would have to go to The Book is Born- Okay …

[01:03:15.462 – 01:03:16.132] in the bibliography. [01:03:16.132 – 01:03:17.332] Okay. [01:03:17.332 – 01:03:18.012] I'll do it. [01:03:18.012 – 01:03:18.512] I'll do it. [01:03:18.512 – 01:03:19.792] I don't want to waste your time. [01:03:19.792 – 01:03:20.692] I'll do it. [01:03:20.692 – 01:03:21.292] Thank you.

[01:03:21.292 – 01:03:22.072] Okay. [01:03:22.072 – 01:03:23.512] Thank you, Talitha. [01:03:23.512 – 01:03:24.022] Thank you. [01:03:24.022 – 01:03:26.612] The Book is Born was October 1945. [01:03:26.612 – 01:03:30.192] Grapevine, October 1945. [01:03:30.192 – 01:03:33.152] The Book is Born was the name of the, the article. [01:03:33.152 – 01:03:34.892] Thank you.

[01:03:34.892 – 01:03:35.912] You're welcome. [01:03:35.912 – 01:03:37.282] Thank you, Talitha. [01:03:37.282 – 01:03:39.672] And we'll go to Dan in Australia. [01:03:39.672 – 01:03:42.452] Yeah, thanks, Jim. [01:03:42.452 – 01:03:43.352] Tha- thanks for the reading. [01:03:43.352 – 01:03:45.012] Thanks for the reading, Dan. [01:03:45.012 – 01:03:55.252] Bill, yeah, I, I, I hear the, the general, the general sentiment seems to be that there's very little input from, uh, Akron into

[01:03:55.252 – 01:04:00.872] the, uh, into the early processes and, uh, and whatever. [01:04:00.872 – 01:04:07.452] And it, it brings to mind, uh, sins of commission and sins of omission. [01:04:07.452 – 01:04:14.082] Would it be fair to say that, uh, there was a fair contribution from Akron in the fact that Dr. [01:04:14.082 – 01:04:17.632] Bob omitted to, uh- [01:04:18.428 – 01:04:25.008] Broadcasted out and about in Akron to those that, uh, that may have been really prickly. [01:04:25.008 – 01:04:27.868] Uh, the same as, uh, Mr. [01:04:27.868 – 01:04:32.428] Jimmy N., Dan, that, that's interesting.

[01:04:32.428 – 01:04:35.768] It's really interesting that it's a, it's a negative contribution because… [01:04:35.768 – 01:04:42.408] So, so Bob wasn't, wasn't pounding on Bill all the time to get the four absolutes in there, because we've got no evidence of that happening at all. [01:04:42.408 – 01:04:43.307] At all. [01:04:43.307 – 01:04:49.828] And, uh, even on, even when he came down to, um, he visited, you know, with Bill and Hank, those guys. [01:04:49.828 – 01:04:50.068] They were… [01:04:50.068 – 01:04:56.658] He was down there for four days, uh, over I think it was, uh, over Labor D., you know, in- … [01:04:56.658 – 01:04:57.088] '38.

[01:04:57.088 – 01:04:58.548] And yeah. [01:04:58.548 – 01:05:01.968] So yeah, I think, I think that that's a well taken point. [01:05:01.968 – 01:05:06.648] He was just letting his sponsor, Bill W., go with it, you know? [01:05:06.648 – 01:05:09.168] It's just letting him- Yeah … [01:05:09.168 – 01:05:10.228] do what he was gonna do. [01:05:10.228 – 01:05:20.268] Well, it, it interests me that, uh, that, that Jimmy B. i- in different places is, uh, is, uh, an [01:05:20.268 – 01:05:20.948] agnostic.

[01:05:20.948 – 01:05:23.668] In other places he's an atheist. [01:05:23.668 – 01:05:25.528] Was he just a little shit stirrer? [01:05:25.528 – 01:05:26.968] You know? [01:05:26.968 – 01:05:33.468] There, there are such, there are such people who, uh, it, find it necessary to, uh… [01:05:33.468 – 01:05:43.668] You know, you say, "Do, do, do you…" You know, "It's, it's a beautiful, brisk, cool morning." They've, they've got to contribute to the conversation by saying, "No," said, "I find it hot." [01:05:43.668 – 01:05:53.108] And, uh, may- Was he, was he more rather than agnostic or atheist, was he more just combative? [01:05:53.108 – 01:05:56.128] Well, I, I think he was a combative guy.

[01:05:56.128 – 01:05:57.088] But, but he was… [01:05:57.088 – 01:06:00.308] He, he wa- he came in just rip snorting. [01:06:00.308 – 01:06:02.608] Had no use for the God stuff at all. [01:06:02.608 – 01:06:05.428] He was very, very clear on that from the very beginning. [01:06:05.428 – 01:06:09.348] I don't, I never really think of a- uh, Jimmy as being an agnostic. [01:06:09.348 – 01:06:19.407] I mean, he may have wandered over into that territory, but I, uh, he would've bounced right off it back into atheism as I understand him throughout his whole life, you know? [01:06:19.407 – 01:06:21.748] And, and, and he was out, you know, he was out in San D..

[01:06:21.748 – 01:06:23.688] And he, he died in, uh, '74. [01:06:23.688 – 01:06:27.648] So he was one of the last people standing who were, who were around when the book was written. [01:06:27.648 – 01:06:28.968] Bill died in '71. [01:06:28.968 – 01:06:31.808] And, and I think Jimmy was the last guy. [01:06:31.808 – 01:06:40.308] And I, I remember going to a, a general service conference, a opening ceremony dinner that I was invited to a few years ago. [01:06:40.308 – 01:06:46.908] And I was sitting next to a guy who had been sponsored by a guy sitting on the other side of him who had been sponsored by Jimmy B.. [01:06:46.908 – 01:06:49.128] They were, they were from Southern C..

[01:06:49.128 – 01:06:52.388] And that was a very cool dinner conversation, let me tell you. [01:06:52.388 – 01:06:53.508] I had a good night with that. [01:06:53.508 – 01:06:53.808] So… [01:06:53.808 – 01:06:55.938] Thanks. [01:06:55.938 – 01:06:56.468] Thank you, Bill. [01:06:56.468 – 01:06:56.838] Thanks, Bill. [01:06:56.838 – 01:06:57.428] Thank you, Dan.

[01:06:57.428 – 01:07:07.468] Anyone else have any questions about, uh, for, about this chapter, um, for our author before we [01:07:07.468 – 01:07:11.828] hand it back to, uh, David? [01:07:11.828 – 01:07:12.948] Let me make one comment. [01:07:12.948 – 01:07:13.828] Oh, there's Hugh. [01:07:13.828 – 01:07:15.308] Go right ahead. [01:07:15.308 – 01:07:20.738] Bill, I just wanted to make sure you saw my comment on the- Oh yeah, Hugh, I set you back. [01:07:20.738 – 01:07:21.188] You got it.

[01:07:21.188 – 01:07:21.778] Okay. [01:07:21.778 – 01:07:23.488] Nobody's noticed that before. [01:07:23.488 – 01:07:24.408] Nobody's noticed that. [01:07:24.408 – 01:07:34.508] It, no, he noticed that we had, we had, you know, two quotation marks on a, on the as we understand them on one side, but only one on the other side on page 465 or something. [01:07:34.508 – 01:07:35.917] And, uh, I went to look. [01:07:35.917 – 01:07:43.508] I s- I can't believe nobody's noticed that before, but- I've got 11 pages of corrections to this text that we're reading here, and nobody's noticed that before. [01:07:43.508 – 01:07:46.468] So you guys keep reading carefully, because I appreciate it.

[01:07:46.468 – 01:07:47.148] I really do. [01:07:47.148 – 01:07:49.108] Happy to help. [01:07:49.108 – 01:07:49.808] Thank you. [01:07:49.808 – 01:07:52.488] And, uh, now we'll go to Paul in Marco I.. [01:07:52.488 – 01:07:54.948] Yeah, good afternoon everyone. [01:07:54.948 – 01:07:56.068] Uh, I'm Paul. [01:07:56.068 – 01:07:56.768] I'm an alcoholic.

[01:07:56.768 – 01:08:01.208] Bill, who finally gets credit for as we understand him? [01:08:01.208 – 01:08:04.468] That's what opened the door for me to get sober and stay sober. [01:08:04.468 – 01:08:06.508] Well, I'm with you on that, Paul. [01:08:06.508 – 01:08:09.468] I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for as we understand him. [01:08:09.468 – 01:08:14.808] And, uh, and for my sponsor telling me early on that, uh, that that was an… [01:08:14.808 – 01:08:16.898] I, AA could be my higher power. [01:08:16.898 – 01:08:17.628] No problem.

[01:08:17.628 – 01:08:18.408] No problem. [01:08:18.408 – 01:08:28.697] Um, you know, I, I had a guy send me some stuff about five days ago saying that, uh, that Bill W. had stolen that directly [01:08:28.697 – 01:08:29.498] from Sam S.. [01:08:29.498 – 01:08:31.648] Directly from Sam S.. [01:08:31.648 – 01:08:35.928] And he had a bunch of quotes from, from Dick B.'s books. [01:08:35.928 – 01:08:38.087] We're not gonna go there. [01:08:38.087 – 01:08:42.728] And Dick B.'s books had some footnotes that took us back to a Sam S. book.

[01:08:42.728 – 01:08:43.708] So there was… [01:08:43.708 – 01:08:46.407] The, the guy sent me all these screenshots of all these different pages. [01:08:46.407 – 01:08:48.928] But it came down to these two pages in Sam S.'s book. [01:08:48.928 – 01:08:59.188] And in both of those cases, uh, Sam says that, that he wants people to be able to, uh, you know, g- to accept Christ as they understand [01:08:59.188 – 01:08:59.348] him. [01:08:59.348 – 01:09:01.648] To accept Christ as they… [01:09:01.648 – 01:09:05.488] I mean, the Oxford Group was, was, was 100% Christian.

[01:09:05.488 – 01:09:07.888] I mean, it was 1,000% Christian. [01:09:07.888 – 01:09:16.928] So you know, I, I, I wandered through that whole, uh, thing and I, I was writing this guy back and forth and, and trying to clarify it. [01:09:16.928 – 01:09:26.348] Now, I, I said to him, I said, "Listen, the difference between Christ as you understand him and God as you understand him is just completely… [01:09:26.348 – 01:09:29.768] I mean, it's just completely different." I mean, it's just… [01:09:29.768 – 01:09:33.948] You, you, you can't say he stole it from, from, from Sam S.. [01:09:33.948 – 01:09:39.408] But I could see, I would love to write something about this, but I just, I'm in the middle of so many other things at the moment. [01:09:39.964 – 01:09:44.234] I would love to write what I think of as, uh, the morphing of that phrase.

[01:09:44.234 – 01:09:46.784] 'Cause I can, I can see it started with Sam S.. [01:09:46.784 – 01:09:47.904] I'm okay with that. [01:09:47.904 – 01:09:48.184] You know? [01:09:48.184 – 01:09:52.464] That it started with Christ as you understand him, Jesus C. as you understand him. [01:09:52.464 – 01:10:01.384] And somebody said something, so we got these Oxford Group guys talking of, talking to Ebby T., and I suspect they said the same thing to him. [01:10:01.384 – 01:10:04.964] I don't think they watered that down to God as we understand him. [01:10:04.964 – 01:10:07.584] But when Bill talks about what…

[01:10:07.584 – 01:10:17.824] In 1938, when he's writing his story for the first time, and he's talking about what Ebby told him in that December of 1934 when he was in T. Hospital, he says, "God, as we understand [01:10:17.824 – 01:10:20.984] him," or, "God as you understand him," whatever those quotes were that I had there. [01:10:20.984 – 01:10:23.184] Now, did Ebby really say that? [01:10:23.184 – 01:10:24.024] Did it… [01:10:24.024 – 01:10:30.684] Or did Ebby say, "Christ as we understand him," and then four years, almost four years later, Bill's already toned it, he's dialed it back, you know? [01:10:30.684 – 01:10:34.164] Because that's what, that's where they've gotten to at that, by that point. [01:10:34.164 – 01:10:36.864] Or maybe it was Ebby was being creative.

[01:10:36.864 – 01:10:40.044] Maybe that's what Ebby heard when the guy said something to him, you know? [01:10:40.044 – 01:10:41.304] Who knows? [01:10:41.304 – 01:10:42.004] I just don't know. [01:10:42.004 – 01:10:52.304] But it, but I, I, I can see there's this evolution from Sam S. and what he wrote in 1927, [01:10:52.304 – 01:10:55.244] and what Bill W. wrote in 1938. [01:10:55.244 – 01:10:58.404] I can see this evolution going on. [01:10:58.404 – 01:11:03.464] But by the time we get to 1938, it ain't nothing like Sam S..

[01:11:03.464 – 01:11:05.964] Nothing like Sam S. at all. [01:11:05.964 – 01:11:07.244] So… [01:11:07.244 – 01:11:09.764] All right. [01:11:09.764 – 01:11:09.834] Thank you. [01:11:09.834 – 01:11:11.764] We always thought Ebby took credit for that. [01:11:11.764 – 01:11:15.624] Well, Ebby, Ebby, Ebby did say he said that, but Ebby said a lot of things. [01:11:15.624 – 01:11:23.484] Ebby said, you know, the meetings, the meetings in, the, the meetings in, uh, 1935 and 1936 were just like AA meetings today.

[01:11:23.484 – 01:11:24.844] The ones in, in Brooklyn. [01:11:24.844 – 01:11:28.624] You know, where they were reading the Bible and having 30 minutes of quiet time. [01:11:28.624 – 01:11:30.564] And you know, it was just like AA meetings today. [01:11:30.564 – 01:11:33.904] So I mean, all, all of us are fallible. [01:11:33.904 – 01:11:37.224] And the farther away we get from the events, the more fallible we become. [01:11:37.224 – 01:11:42.744] And we just gotta go with, with, you know, common sense sometimes. [01:11:42.744 – 01:11:42.964] You know?

[01:11:42.964 – 01:11:51.024] When, when, when a guy says that the meetings in 1935 were just like AA meetings today, uh, there's, there's just no way to credit that. [01:11:51.024 – 01:11:54.504] I mean, I, in my opinion, there's no way to credit that as being, as being true. [01:11:54.504 – 01:11:57.164] So did it… [01:11:57.164 – 01:11:58.284] Did, did, did Ebby say… [01:11:58.284 – 01:11:59.344] Did somebody say it to Ebby? [01:11:59.344 – 01:12:00.544] I really doubt that. [01:12:00.544 – 01:12:01.664] Did E. say it to Bill?

[01:12:01.664 – 01:12:03.864] He might have. [01:12:03.864 – 01:12:04.564] He might have. [01:12:04.564 – 01:12:07.164] But certainly by the time Bill got to 1938, he… [01:12:07.164 – 01:12:14.024] If E. said, if Ebby said, "Christ as you understand him," meaning God as you understand him, or maybe he even said that to him, you know? [01:12:14.024 – 01:12:16.814] Try G. as you understand him. [01:12:16.814 – 01:12:26.824] And we know that those, those amazing four paragraphs in Bill's story that really watered down, "Why don't you, why don't you accept, come up with an idea of God as you understand [01:12:26.824 – 01:12:37.204] him?" Those four paragraphs were written by Hank P. and inserted into the manuscript between the Malta lift printing in February of '39 and the book printing in April of '39.

[01:12:37.204 – 01:12:38.264] Hmm. [01:12:38.264 – 01:12:40.124] Okay. [01:12:40.124 – 01:12:40.924] Thank you, Bill. [01:12:40.924 – 01:12:41.054] Thank you, Bill. [01:12:41.054 – 01:12:42.423] That's about as clear as mud. [01:12:42.423 – 01:12:44.504] All right. [01:12:44.504 – 01:12:46.564] And, uh- It is a muddy story, Paul.

[01:12:46.564 – 01:12:47.744] There's no doubt about it. [01:12:47.744 – 01:12:48.393] I thought that was very good. [01:12:48.393 – 01:12:50.064] I, I, I'm not gonna say anything different about that. [01:12:50.064 – 01:12:51.344] And, uh- Thanks to the forum. [01:12:51.344 – 01:12:52.644] It was great. [01:12:52.644 – 01:12:53.634] I've got one more question. [01:12:53.634 – 01:12:54.704] I know Bill couldn't make this stuff up.

[01:12:54.704 – 01:12:55.474] Thank you so much. [01:12:55.474 – 01:12:56.164] Ed? [01:12:56.164 – 01:12:58.624] Ed, do you have a question for Bill? [01:12:58.624 – 01:13:02.964] Yeah, Bill, um, the Malta copies that, uh, Bill sent out to Dr. [01:13:02.964 – 01:13:04.814] Bob, do you think Dr. [01:13:04.814 – 01:13:10.104] Bob might have given one copy to the dragon lady to review and critique? [01:13:10.104 – 01:13:13.924] I, I would, I would…

[01:13:13.924 – 01:13:15.264] That's a good question, Ed. [01:13:15.264 – 01:13:25.604] But I would seriously dri- doubt that, that, that Henrietta S. was just given a presentation copy and saying, "Tell us what you think about this, Henrietta." I mean, [01:13:25.604 – 01:13:26.284] I, maybe. [01:13:26.284 – 01:13:27.244] I don't, I don't know. [01:13:27.244 – 01:13:27.804] They… [01:13:27.804 – 01:13:34.334] You know, the, the whole deal is that, uh, I, I love the fact, I love the fact that, that, that, that, uh, in, uh, Dr. [01:13:34.334 – 01:13:35.304] Bob is a Good O.-Timers.

[01:13:35.304 – 01:13:37.044] I couldn't find anything on this in the archive. [01:13:37.044 – 01:13:37.314] But Dr. [01:13:37.314 – 01:13:44.534] Bob and the Good O.-Timers has a quote that basically some guy, uh, talking about the break where they, where they left the Oxford Group and went to Dr. [01:13:44.534 – 01:13:49.504] Bob's house in early December of 1939, well after the book came out, December of '39. [01:13:49.504 – 01:13:55.804] But, but, uh, the story there, and there's quotes there, so I presume it's accurate, says that, uh, it was the women who fought. [01:13:55.804 – 01:14:02.064] That Anne Smith got into an argument with Henrietta S. and, and, uh, Clarice W.. [01:14:02.064 – 01:14:03.924] And, uh, they had this big fight.

[01:14:03.924 – 01:14:11.504] And so Anne said, "We're taking the meeting and we're moving it to my house." I was like, "Okay." So I, I don't, uh, I don't know. [01:14:11.504 – 01:14:14.744] I don't see, I don't see Bob giving Henrietta a copy of the book, no. [01:14:14.744 – 01:14:18.104] Well, I, you talk about redlining. [01:14:18.104 – 01:14:21.004] I said, "Boy, she'd sure do a number on that." Yeah. [01:14:21.004 – 01:14:23.914] And, uh, Dennis, did you have another question? [01:14:23.914 – 01:14:29.024] I was just gonna ask him if he sent the book to the archives. [01:14:29.024 – 01:14:32.864] If I sent the book to the archives?

[01:14:32.864 – 01:14:34.444] Huh? [01:14:34.444 – 01:14:36.144] If I sent my book to the archives? [01:14:36.144 – 01:14:36.744] Yeah. [01:14:36.744 – 01:14:37.924] Oh, yeah. [01:14:37.924 – 01:14:39.084] Oh, yeah. [01:14:39.084 – 01:14:39.334] I get… [01:14:39.334 – 01:14:40.754] I sent, I sent two down there.

[01:14:40.754 – 01:14:46.424] One for, one, I sent one to Michelle, I sent one to April, and I sent one for a record copy. [01:14:46.424 – 01:14:49.224] I may have sent one to the general manager too. [01:14:49.224 – 01:14:50.834] Who's the girl in A- Yeah … [01:14:50.834 – 01:14:52.124] Who's the girl in Akron? [01:14:52.124 – 01:14:53.184] Is that Michelle? [01:14:53.184 – 01:14:53.784] No. [01:14:53.784 – 01:14:54.224] No, no, no.

[01:14:54.224 – 01:14:55.904] That's, that's, uh, that's, um… [01:14:55.904 – 01:14:56.924] Oh, come on. [01:14:56.924 – 01:14:58.444] Jim, help me out here. [01:14:58.444 – 01:14:58.864] Gail. [01:14:58.864 – 01:14:59.704] Gail. [01:14:59.704 – 01:15:00.084] Gail. [01:15:00.084 – 01:15:00.214] Gail.

[01:15:00.214 – 01:15:00.744] Gail LeCroix. [01:15:01.560 – 01:15:03.620] Yeah Y., Gail has copies for sure. [01:15:03.620 – 01:15:05.620] I, I, I sent out, I sent out copies. [01:15:05.620 – 01:15:09.640] When I first got them, they, they gave me 10 copies, and I think I needed, like, 20 or 25. [01:15:09.640 – 01:15:12.240] They sent- I, I, I, I met her when I went to Akron. [01:15:12.240 – 01:15:13.080] I met all those guys. [01:15:13.080 – 01:15:17.420] I, I have another, I have another question here from, uh, from someone.

[01:15:17.420 – 01:15:18.780] It says, uh, "Hank P. [01:15:18.780 – 01:15:22.830] got sober at T. Hospital in New York City, right?" Yeah. [01:15:22.830 – 01:15:31.660] "How did he ever stomach the Oxford Group and Bill's involvement with them?" Well, Hank was … [01:15:31.660 – 01:15:34.400] Ha- Hank did a turnaround when he was in… [01:15:34.400 – 01:15:36.080] There's no doubt about it, he did a turnaround. [01:15:36.080 – 01:15:45.780] Now, the, his story of the turnaround wasn't written until late 1938, but, but there's this wonderful letter that he wrote to Sam S. in… [01:15:45.780 – 01:15:55.860] He gets sober in, uh, in, uh, '35, and, and there's this wonderful letter he writes to Sam S. in February of 1936, and it's absolutely clear

[01:15:55.860 – 01:15:57.200] that he is completely on board. [01:15:57.200 – 01:15:59.240] Now, Hank P. is, is a man of vision. [01:15:59.240 – 01:16:05.000] He's a man, he's a big plan guy, and he tells Hank, or he tells, uh, Sam S., it's a two-page letter. [01:16:05.000 – 01:16:07.840] He's got, like, I don't know, a dozen points. [01:16:07.840 – 01:16:09.860] "Sam, we can take over the world. [01:16:09.860 – 01:16:19.940] God needs a spark plug to take over the world, and here's the, here's the thing for the, here's the plan for taking over the world." And, and it's just, and, and the, the, [01:16:19.940 – 01:16:28.560] the, the between-the-lines message in this letter is, is, uh, is h- if you're looking for a spark plug to take over the world, you got him.

[01:16:28.560 – 01:16:29.300] I'm right here. [01:16:29.300 – 01:16:30.520] You know, I'm ready to go. [01:16:30.520 – 01:16:37.980] So he was, he was into the Oxford Group with absolutely both feet just months after he came, came out of T. Hospital. [01:16:37.980 – 01:16:48.020] Now, how was it, how instrumental was he in, in, in moving the New York group out of, out of, out, out of the [01:16:48.020 – 01:16:48.620] Oxford Group? [01:16:48.620 – 01:16:50.100] I, I don't know. [01:16:50.100 – 01:16:52.700] We have no evidence on that whatsoever, you know?

[01:16:52.700 – 01:17:02.740] I mean, there are a bunch of places in my book where I say, "Now, I got no evidence that Hank, Hank was directly responsible for this," but in my opinion, his fingerprints are all over this thing, [01:17:02.740 – 01:17:03.120] you know? [01:17:03.120 – 01:17:10.280] And, uh, that whole grand plan of we're gonna have a string of hospitals and paid missionaries who are gonna write a book, that sounds like a Hank P. plan to me. [01:17:10.280 – 01:17:14.740] So, but he was, he was deeply, deeply into the Oxford Group initially. [01:17:14.740 – 01:17:17.300] When he wandered away from it, I don't know. [01:17:17.300 – 01:17:18.020] There's no evidence. [01:17:18.020 – 01:17:20.860] We, we've got no documentation on that that's turned up yet.

[01:17:20.860 – 01:17:22.960] All right. [01:17:22.960 – 01:17:23.540] Thank you, Bill. [01:17:23.540 – 01:17:25.460] No other questions. [01:17:25.460 – 01:17:27.380] I'm gonna turn it back over to you, David. [01:17:27.380 – 01:17:28.900] Thank you, Jim. [01:17:28.900 – 01:17:29.340] That was great. [01:17:29.340 – 01:17:36.690] Just for those who take me literal when I read, it's, I've been told it's New A., not New A., in my reading.

[01:17:36.690 – 01:17:41.660] I apologize to those people who, who didn't like me saying New A.. [01:17:41.660 – 01:17:43.780] I, I've been laughing because I, I'm okay. [01:17:43.780 – 01:17:45.300] I'm not really sure. [01:17:45.300 – 01:17:46.030] It's Newark. [01:17:46.030 – 01:17:46.100] Newark. [01:17:46.100 – 01:17:46.600] Thank you. [01:17:46.600 – 01:17:48.660] Well, I, I, I apologize.

[01:17:48.660 – 01:17:50.600] I, I read it as New- New- Yeah … [01:17:50.600 – 01:17:51.160] New A., New A.. [01:17:51.160 – 01:17:53.180] But w- well anyway, no big deal. [01:17:53.180 – 01:17:54.190] In my opinion- Yeah. [01:17:54.190 – 01:17:56.810] Well, just, just wait till you, uh, you hear- Listen … [01:17:56.810 – 01:18:00.390] how I pronounce some of those UK, uh, city names- I know … [01:18:00.390 – 01:18:02.380] when I do my history of the UK.

[01:18:02.380 – 01:18:04.560] But the w- but the book is wonderful. [01:18:04.560 – 01:18:05.400] That's all that matters. [01:18:05.400 – 01:18:08.200] Read it yourself. [01:18:08.200 – 01:18:13.080] But anyway, listen, I just want to, Bill, out of, out of, uh, we want to mention this to Bill. [01:18:13.080 – 01:18:22.300] Uh, I'm gonna v- close the meeting with this 'cause, uh, Bill S.'s influenced me quite a lot since I've started reading his book in many ways, and having him here every week has really influenced me. [01:18:22.300 – 01:18:22.960] So I just wanna… [01:18:22.960 – 01:18:24.980] Bill, would you read this for us?

[01:18:24.980 – 01:18:27.540] Because, uh, Jim and I were talking about this before the meeting. [01:18:27.540 – 01:18:28.760] Sorry, I'm q- I'm getting ahead of you. [01:18:28.760 – 01:18:33.300] Jim, uh, Bill S., would you clo- read, uh, close the meeting with this for me, please? [01:18:33.300 – 01:18:35.120] The evening gatha, would you read that for us? [01:18:35.120 – 01:18:37.400] You keep flipping. [01:18:37.400 – 01:18:39.340] Am I back? [01:18:39.340 – 01:18:39.780] Am I back?

[01:18:39.780 – 01:18:41.420] There we are. [01:18:41.420 – 01:18:41.850] There we are. [01:18:41.850 – 01:18:42.320] You're back. [01:18:42.320 – 01:18:43.080] You're back. [01:18:43.080 – 01:18:43.920] I'm back. [01:18:43.920 – 01:18:48.320] I'm thinking about B- uh, Bill S., would you, would you do me the honor of reading this for us, the evening gatha? [01:18:48.320 – 01:18:48.840] Thank you.

[01:18:48.840 – 01:18:50.020] Thank, thank you. [01:18:50.020 – 01:18:50.800] Thank you, David. [01:18:50.800 – 01:18:54.880] Thank you for, uh, using the prayer of my choice. [01:18:54.880 – 01:19:05.000] And, uh, let's have a, a moment of silence for suffering people everywhere, just as much compassion as we can possibly [01:19:05.000 – 01:19:10.120] generate in a brief moment of silence. [01:19:10.120 – 01:19:18.300] Let me respectfully remind you, life and death are of supreme importance. [01:19:18.300 – 01:19:22.019] Time swiftly passes by and opportunity is lost.

[01:19:22.019 – 01:19:23.600] Each of us should strive to awaken. [01:19:23.600 – 01:19:24.220] Awaken. [01:19:24.220 – 01:19:25.060] Take heed. [01:19:25.060 – 01:19:27.260] Do not squander your life. [01:19:27.260 – 01:19:28.940] T- take heed. [01:19:28.940 – 01:19:30.080] David, you got the wrong… [01:19:30.080 – 01:19:30.680] I'm reading it up.

[01:19:30.680 – 01:19:31.480] Take heed. [01:19:31.480 – 01:19:33.880] Tonight your days will be diminished by one. [01:19:33.880 – 01:19:36.580] Do not squander your life. [01:19:36.580 – 01:19:37.760] Apologies. [01:19:37.760 – 01:19:40.300] Bill, th- thank you very much, Bill S.. [01:19:40.300 – 01:19:42.380] Once more, let's hear it for Bill. [01:19:42.380 – 01:19:43.100] Thank you.

[01:19:43.100 – 01:19:44.640] Thank you. [01:19:44.640 – 01:19:45.330] Thank you. [01:19:45.330 – 01:19:46.800] Thank you, everyone. [01:19:46.800 – 01:19:48.000] Appreciate it. [01:19:48.000 – 01:19:48.099] Awesome. [01:19:48.099 – 01:19:48.260] Thank you, Bill. [01:19:48.260 – 01:19:50.340] Keep reading.

[01:19:50.340 – 01:19:51.380] Thanks, everyone. [01:19:51.380 – 01:19:55.200] And let you know we have Kit, Kit R. is reading next week. [01:19:55.200 – 01:19:57.150] Kit's reading with, with Jim W.. [01:19:57.150 – 01:19:58.700] He's gonna help and read that as well. [01:19:58.700 – 01:20:01.300] And of course, Riley's gonna do our footnotes for us. [01:20:01.300 – 01:20:01.780] Thank you. [01:20:01.780 – 01:20:06.440] What chapters are we on, just so I can, um- We're 25 Okay.

[01:20:06.440 – 01:20:06.940] Thank you. [01:20:06.940 – 01:20:08.100] See you next week. [01:20:08.100 – 01:20:08.340] Thank you. [01:20:08.340 – 01:20:08.780] Have a good one. [01:20:08.780 – 01:20:09.140] Wonderful. [01:20:09.140 – 01:20:09.490] Thank you. [01:20:09.490 – 01:20:09.920] You too.

[01:20:09.920 – 01:20:10.470] Okay. [01:20:10.470 – 01:20:12.300] Great to see everybody from all over the place. [01:20:12.300 – 01:20:15.210] And, and thank God for Bill W. every day. [01:20:15.210 – 01:20:18.440] Now, I'm gonna mention what we have tomorrow night now that we've come off that. [01:20:18.440 – 01:20:21.660] So I'm, I better pause the recording actually. [01:20:21.660 – 01:20:22.890] Uh, now if-