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[00:00:00.060 – 00:00:02.260] There you go. [00:00:02.260 – 00:00:05.200] And Debbie sent us a message today with regards to recordings. [00:00:05.200 – 00:00:15.260] Uh, Debbie said if, um, "At present the wagons are being circled to protect and restore Mike's, uh, legacy of hope, and are gonna continue to make the recordings available, as [00:00:15.260 – 00:00:25.500] that was his pa- Mike's passion, to share his program with everyone." Uh, Treads of Recovery G. and other groups, uh, they're asking us to continue to record and store the recordings in preparation [00:00:25.500 – 00:00:26.240] to publish them. [00:00:26.240 – 00:00:27.960] So we will be recording. [00:00:27.960 – 00:00:31.960] We're on, we're on cloud at the moment, and I'll pass that over to them in the appropriate time.

[00:00:31.960 – 00:00:33.560] So my name is David, I'm an alcoholic. [00:00:33.560 – 00:00:40.620] And you're all very welcome to this reading, uh, book meeting on Zoom, hosted by the Growing and Understanding AA Group. [00:00:40.620 – 00:00:50.740] Of course, the book that we're reading is Writing the Big Book: The Creation of AA by Bill S., and we're on chapter eight this week, "There is a Solution," and we have a c- we have the author, [00:00:50.740 – 00:00:57.880] Bill S.'s gonna be reading for us, and we have of course with i- we have with us Jay S., who's gonna be reading the footnotes for us. [00:00:57.880 – 00:00:59.980] So hold on to your hats for this. [00:00:59.980 – 00:01:01.460] This is gonna be good. [00:01:01.460 – 00:01:11.820] Um, so I'm gonna mention tradition five just along for them just to consider each AA group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose, and that is carrying its message

[00:01:11.820 – 00:01:14.320] to the alcoholics who are still suffering. [00:01:14.320 – 00:01:24.580] So in keeping within the spirit of AA's traditions, the main purpose of these reading book meetings is to improve our understanding, of course, of the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous and the AA message [00:01:24.580 – 00:01:28.200] contain- recovery message contained in a book titled Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:01:28.200 – 00:01:32.280] Okay, I'm just gonna put up, I'm just gonna make some tradition seven. [00:01:32.280 – 00:01:37.300] With regards to tradition seven, if you would like to make a contribution, we ask that you do so at your local AA group. [00:01:37.300 – 00:01:43.780] Uh, regarding the chat, Jim W., do you just wanna mention the chat first while I just get up the Set A. prayer? [00:01:43.780 – 00:01:45.600] Uh, yeah.

[00:01:45.600 – 00:01:48.040] Uh, my name's Jim, and I'm an alcoholic. [00:01:48.040 – 00:01:48.130] Jim. [00:01:48.130 – 00:01:52.330] And, uh, um, we'll be, uh, I'll be your co-host today. [00:01:52.330 – 00:01:54.700] I'll be back for the, uh, Q&A. [00:01:54.700 – 00:02:05.000] We'll have Q&A at the end of this, and, uh, not a, not a discussion meeting, but, uh, uh, mainly just questions and answers on [00:02:05.000 – 00:02:09.190] the reading and the time period that we're, uh, talking about today. [00:02:09.190 – 00:02:11.080] Thank you, Jim.

[00:02:11.080 – 00:02:15.570] And we m- we will stay behind for our discussion meeting if you'd like at the end of that. [00:02:15.570 – 00:02:15.920] Thank you. [00:02:15.920 – 00:02:22.700] So if you'd like to unmute yourselves and, uh, we'll use God as we, we understand it to get into the spirit of things, language of the heart. [00:02:22.700 – 00:02:23.720] So G…. [00:02:23.720 – 00:02:25.160] God… [00:02:25.160 – 00:02:25.960] Please… [00:02:25.960 – 00:02:26.250] Please…

[00:02:26.250 – 00:02:27.960] Help me to set aside… [00:02:27.960 – 00:02:28.790] Set aside… [00:02:28.790 – 00:02:30.160] Everything I think I know… [00:02:30.160 – 00:02:31.570] Everything I think I know… [00:02:31.570 – 00:02:32.400] Open mind… [00:02:32.400 – 00:02:33.109] Open mind… [00:02:33.109 – 00:02:36.080] New experience New experience Amen.

[00:02:36.080 – 00:02:36.210] Amen. [00:02:36.210 – 00:02:40.080] And we'll just have a few moments silence to think of why we're here. [00:02:40.080 – 00:02:48.760] Of course, those who were here when we got here, and think of those who are still suffering from alcoholic torture and their family members. [00:02:48.760 – 00:02:53.480] Thank you. [00:02:53.480 – 00:02:55.960] And as I said, Bill S. is going to be, uh, reading. [00:02:55.960 – 00:02:59.800] I'm gonna put up the Kindle edition, and we'll be following along, uh, Bill. [00:02:59.800 – 00:03:02.000] Bill W- Bill S., delight to say over to you.

[00:03:02.000 – 00:03:04.120] Thank you, David. [00:03:04.120 – 00:03:06.340] And, uh, welcome to everybody. [00:03:06.340 – 00:03:07.660] Love to see the crowd here. [00:03:07.660 – 00:03:12.900] We're up to, uh, chapter eight, "There is a Solution." Early J., 1938. [00:03:12.900 – 00:03:18.760] The second chapter Bill needed to write was much more challenging. [00:03:18.760 – 00:03:22.720] It was easy enough to defend whatever he might put down in his own story. [00:03:22.720 – 00:03:30.140] It was, after all, a straightforward retelling of his own experiences, an autobiographical account of what had happened to him personally.

[00:03:30.140 – 00:03:40.500] But writing a much more general chapter, one describing the reasons for their success in universal terms, was fraught with treacherous political problems because of the radically [00:03:40.500 – 00:03:47.160] different ways Akron and New York understood and practiced the program of recovery in early June 1938. [00:03:47.160 – 00:03:50.940] The Akron Fellowship and the Oxford Group. [00:03:50.940 – 00:04:00.420] It's hard to overstate the differences between the Akron approach to sobriety in mid-1938 and what was going on at that same time in New York City. [00:04:00.420 – 00:04:10.440] Ohio's brand of recover- covery was still exclusively based on the practices, principles, and beliefs of the Oxford Group, and the Akron alcoholics were [00:04:10.440 – 00:04:12.140] seamlessly blended into that group. [00:04:12.140 – 00:04:22.220] There was no ac- organization called Alcoholics Anonymous as yet, and as far as the newly recovered Ohio drunks were concerned, they were members of the Oxford Group and they owed

[00:04:22.220 – 00:04:26.560] their salvation to the fellowship and the belief sys- system they had found within it. [00:04:26.560 – 00:04:36.620] That belief system was firmly based on the Christian N. Testament, and it advocated, among other things, surrender to God, daily prayer, and quiet [00:04:36.620 – 00:04:46.460] time to receive direct guidance from God, and a life of reformed behavior based on absolute honesty, absolute unselfishness, absolute love, and absolute purity. [00:04:46.460 – 00:04:56.600] While the typical Oxford Group focused their recruiting efforts almost exclusively on the wealthy and drew their membership primarily from within the Episcopalian [00:04:56.600 – 00:05:03.980] community, key members in Akron had made unusual allowances in relation to this motley crew of recovering alcoholics. [00:05:03.980 – 00:05:14.100] Despite the disapproval of some local members who suggested the alcoholics should be screened so that only the most socially acceptable would be allowed in, [00:05:14.100 – 00:05:15.800] both Henrietta S. and T.

[00:05:15.800 – 00:05:16.650] Henry W.- [00:05:17.104 – 00:05:27.124] Had extended their S. support to the newly emerging alcoholic squad within their group, even if it meant ignoring the fact that many of these people had neither the social standing nor [00:05:27.124 – 00:05:32.784] the economic resources usually considered prerequites- requisites for membership in the Oxford Group. [00:05:32.784 – 00:05:36.044] The previous February, Dr. [00:05:36.044 – 00:05:41.604] Bob had claimed that the alcoholic set up here in Akron could not be identified with the Oxford Group. [00:05:41.604 – 00:05:51.604] But as already noted, even in conference approved literature, that sediment had justly, had been justly characterized as, quote, "more wishful than real," end [00:05:51.604 – 00:05:52.064] quote.

[00:05:52.064 – 00:05:53.324] While Dr. [00:05:53.324 – 00:06:03.464] Bob may have not seen any formal affiliation between his work with alcoholics in the local Oxford Group, the members of the alcoholic squad certainly thought of themselves as Oxford Group members. [00:06:03.464 – 00:06:13.484] A perfectly understandable conclusion, since they were deeply committed to the principles promoted by the Oxford Group, and they were all attending a weekly meeting that was in every respect a [00:06:13.484 – 00:06:15.064] typical Oxford Group gathering. [00:06:15.064 – 00:06:16.584] The line that Dr. [00:06:16.584 – 00:06:24.824] Bob claimed to see separating his alcoholic squad from the Oxford Group was not self-evident to most of the recovering alcoholics in Akron at that time. [00:06:24.824 – 00:06:34.863] One dramatic example of Akron's adherence to Oxford Group practices was a requirement for, that each me- new member get down on his knees and publicly

[00:06:34.864 – 00:06:38.724] surrender his life to God before being allowed to attend the group's meetings. [00:06:38.724 – 00:06:48.964] As F. A. had written the previous February, one of the six musts for recovery in Akron was that an alcoholic must surrender himself [00:06:48.964 – 00:06:53.004] absolutely to God, realizing that in himself there is no hope. [00:06:53.004 – 00:07:03.284] In 1954, while preparing to write the book Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, Bill W. interviewed most of the surviving early AA members in Akron, [00:07:03.284 – 00:07:08.384] and two of these transcripts provide conclusive testimony regarding this pa- practice. [00:07:08.384 – 00:07:13.424] The first comes from a man who sobered up in February of 1937. [00:07:13.424 – 00:07:23.504] Bob: "I was gonna say, I was gonna say the last thing I did there in the hospital before I left was to make a surrender, which I think is important." Bill W.: "Well, like

[00:07:23.504 – 00:07:29.444] the Oxford Group, on your knees?" Bob: "Sharing completely, had to be done with another person. [00:07:29.444 – 00:07:31.624] Pray and share out loud. [00:07:31.624 – 00:07:41.684] The act of surrender." Bill: "You know, in the first draft of the 12 steps, it said that people w- uh, were to be on their knees, but the other drunks made me [00:07:41.684 – 00:07:43.504] take it out." Footnote. [00:07:43.504 – 00:07:53.564] Bill is referring here to the seventh step, which originally read, "Humbly on our knees, asked Him to remove our [00:07:53.564 – 00:07:59.944] shortcomings, holding nothing back." So the other drunks made them take that out. [00:07:59.944 – 00:08:03.744] "That went back to the practice of surrender," Bill's still talking.

[00:08:03.744 – 00:08:06.424] "You got on your knees and surrendered your life and will to God. [00:08:06.424 – 00:08:10.964] That was the process which you went, which you actually went through, yeah?" Bob: "Oh, yes. [00:08:10.964 – 00:08:12.844] Of course, I've never forgotten that. [00:08:12.844 – 00:08:15.103] It made a tremendous impression on me. [00:08:15.103 – 00:08:21.224] I hear a lot to this day, fellows talk about getting down on our knees to pray at night." Bill: "Oh, yes. [00:08:21.224 – 00:08:29.904] Lots of people do it, to be sure, but this was a certain act of, act of surrender." Bob: "Yes, it was, it w- this was very important at that time. [00:08:29.904 – 00:08:31.504] There were no exceptions.

[00:08:31.504 – 00:08:34.544] You couldn't attend a meeting unless you had gone through that. [00:08:34.544 – 00:08:36.324] You couldn't go to a meeting. [00:08:36.324 – 00:08:46.144] You had to go through the program of surrender." Another comment made by a man who had his last drinks two months after Bob in April of 1937 confirms this. [00:08:46.144 – 00:08:55.434] Wally, again, being interviewed by Bill: "On the business of surrender, which I think is probably the most important part of this whole thing, Dr. [00:08:55.434 – 00:09:02.684] Smith took my surrender the morning of the day that I, that I left the hospital, and at that time, it was the only way you could become a member. [00:09:02.684 – 00:09:07.784] You became a member by a definite act of prayer and surrender, just as they did in the group. [00:09:07.784 – 00:09:17.944] I'm sorry it's fallen by the wayside." This necessity of making a public surrender before attending a meeting was an integral part of the Akron

[00:09:17.944 – 00:09:21.584] program throughout the late 1930s and well into the early 1940s. [00:09:21.584 – 00:09:31.824] Again, a quote, "If by accident you didn't make your surrender in the hospital," one early member recalled, "then you had to make it in the upper bedroom over the Williams's house just before [00:09:31.824 – 00:09:41.624] the regular Wednesday night meeting began." "The men would all disappear upstairs," recalled Clarence S.'s wife, Dorothy, describing a typical 1938 meeting. [00:09:41.624 – 00:09:51.664] Then, quote, "After about a half an hour or so, down would come the new man, shaking, white, serious, and grim, and all the people who were already sober would come [00:09:51.664 – 00:09:52.704] trooping down after him. [00:09:52.704 – 00:10:00.384] They were pretty reluctant to talk about what had happened, but after a while, they would tell us that they had had a real surrender." Footnote. [00:10:00.384 – 00:10:10.444] Once the Ohio alcoholics made their formal break with the Oxford Group in late 1939, this practice of going upstairs and

[00:10:10.444 – 00:10:12.524] surrendering was transferred to Dr. [00:10:12.524 – 00:10:13.224] Bob's house. [00:10:13.224 – 00:10:17.444] Visitors are still shown the room at the top of the stairs in Dr. [00:10:17.444 – 00:10:27.604] Bob's house, and are often invited to get on their knees and say the third step prayer that is conveniently provided for them on a printed card. [00:10:27.604 – 00:10:34.004] The meeting that followed these surrenders typically be- began with a group- [00:10:34.128 – 00:10:41.488] Holding hands and reciting a prayer before they launched into a quiet time during which everyone silently asked God for guidance. [00:10:41.488 – 00:10:46.128] In the beginning, these quiet times took up literally 50% of the meeting.

[00:10:46.128 – 00:10:54.608] But sitting in silence and listening for guidance half the time made the drunks very restless, so the practice was gradually shortened. [00:10:54.608 – 00:11:04.748] The leader of the evening would then open the meeting with a reading from Christian scripture or some other religious writing, frequently relying on a popular Methodist periodical, The Upper [00:11:04.748 – 00:11:05.148] Room. [00:11:05.148 – 00:11:06.188] Footnote. [00:11:06.188 – 00:11:16.308] For an interesting discussion of the importance of this publication in early AA history, see The Upper Room and Early [00:11:16.308 – 00:11:17.828] AA by Glenn C. [00:11:17.828 – 00:11:20.048] at hindsfoot.org.

[00:11:20.048 – 00:11:30.048] Having set the tone with literature, the leader would then witness for 20 or 30 minutes before inviting others, alcoholics and non-alcoholics alike, to [00:11:30.048 – 00:11:30.708] do the same. [00:11:30.708 – 00:11:40.998] Although not too much was said about alcoholism or drinking in the testimonials, we were more interested in our everyday life than we were in reminiscing [00:11:40.998 – 00:11:41.698] about drinking. [00:11:41.698 – 00:11:42.748] Drinking. [00:11:42.748 – 00:11:43.728] Footnote. [00:11:43.728 – 00:11:52.428] This is in stark contrast to the more prominent focus on alcohol in the New York meetings of this time.

[00:11:52.428 – 00:11:53.808] Dr. [00:11:53.808 – 00:12:03.248] Bob was particularly adamant about full participation, and he encouraged everyone to be brief in their comments so that each person would get a chance to speak. [00:12:03.248 – 00:12:06.268] The meeting ended with the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. [00:12:06.268 – 00:12:16.348] It was in short- Bill, please It wa- it was in short a very Christian affair, specifically based on the Oxford Group religious model, [00:12:16.348 – 00:12:20.988] and would hardly be recognized or acol- acknowledged as an AA meeting by today's members. [00:12:20.988 – 00:12:31.098] As D. Schneider so rile- wryly commented a few years later, "I often wonder how many of the people that come in now would agree with the Oxford Group's vision of the word [00:12:31.098 – 00:12:35.568] of God or anything spiritual, and really survive an experience like that.

[00:12:35.568 – 00:12:41.048] It was a regular old-fashioned prayer meeting." Bill W. and the Oxford Group. [00:12:41.048 – 00:12:51.228] Bill W. had started out in early 1935 with a similarly S. connection to the New York Oxford Group, but his experiences were strikingly [00:12:51.228 – 00:12:53.568] different from those of the people in Akron. [00:12:53.568 – 00:13:03.578] While a vocal minor- minority in Akron actively embraced these new members, the New York chapter wanted little or nothing to do with the drunks Bill was regularly bringing into [00:13:03.578 – 00:13:04.868] their meetings. [00:13:04.868 – 00:13:12.808] It was a strained relationship from the very start, setting W. and the New York Oxford Group on a completely different trajectory from the one unfolding in Akron. [00:13:12.808 – 00:13:22.908] Having left Town H. for the l- for the last time, Bill constantly went to Oxford Group meetings, and he soon became a member of one of the smaller teams

[00:13:22.908 – 00:13:28.708] of men who regularly met and sat quietly as they listened for the guidance of God for each one. [00:13:28.708 – 00:13:37.568] Curiously, Oxford Group guidance was rarely directed towards the person receiving it, but rather was intended for someone else within the group. [00:13:37.568 – 00:13:42.108] Bill almost immediately began to have trouble with the guidance others were receiving for him. [00:13:42.108 – 00:13:49.428] As L. noted, "The rest of the team would get guidance for him to work with such and such a person in order to," quote, "bring him to God. [00:13:49.428 – 00:13:54.968] Bill usually had different guidance and felt no identity with the person they selected. [00:13:54.968 – 00:13:57.988] He became a bit annoyed at being told what to do. [00:13:57.988 – 00:14:04.868] He knew he could be far more useful working with alcoholics with whom he could identify." The crux of the problem was clear.

[00:14:04.868 – 00:14:14.868] Bill W. wanted to spend all his time working with drunks, and the Oxford Group members believed and constantly received confirming guidance from God that he should go out and get a job on Wall S. where he could mingle [00:14:14.868 – 00:14:20.308] with the right sort of people, people who would be much more appropriate candidates for membership in their group. [00:14:20.308 – 00:14:30.408] The practice of recruiting, of recruiting recovering alcoholics as new members, which was so generously tolerated in Akron, was at first actively discouraged in New York [00:14:30.408 – 00:14:33.288] and then soundly criticized and censured. [00:14:33.288 – 00:14:34.388] Footnote. [00:14:34.388 – 00:14:37.268] I think Jay's just out of the room at the moment. [00:14:37.268 – 00:14:39.568] I think his link went down, so I'll just read it, uh, Bill.

[00:14:39.568 – 00:14:49.568] W. claims that this Oxford Group reluctance to work with drunks in New York was, among other things, driven by some frustrating and unfortunate experiences that [00:14:49.568 – 00:14:59.148] Sam S., director of Calvary E. Church and the leader of the Oxford Group in USA, had had with earlier attempts to save alcoholics. [00:14:59.148 – 00:15:09.188] Given these evolving criticisms and restrictions, Bill's stubborn commitment to working with drunks generated a fair amount of friction as he began to [00:15:09.188 – 00:15:12.548] pick and choose which guidance he would follow and which he would not. [00:15:12.548 – 00:15:22.548] In spite of the specific instructions others so consistently received and passed along to him, Bill, to him, Bill doggedly insisted his time and energy could best [00:15:22.548 – 00:15:27.948] be sent trying, be spent trying to sober up and recruit people who were in trouble with alcohol. [00:15:27.948 – 00:15:38.898] Or, as he so succinctly put it a few years later, quote, "The Oxford Group wanted to save the world, and I only wanted to save the drunks." Because

[00:15:38.898 – 00:15:49.068] of this tension and the undercurrent of hostility, the alcoholic members in New York whom Bill was recruiting not only from within the group itself, but also from within the drunks at the Calvary M. [00:15:49.068 – 00:15:50.948] and the patients at Town H.- [00:15:51.272 – 00:16:01.272] Began to gather by themselves immediately after the regular Oxford Group sessions at Stewart's Cafeteria, a convenient and congenial spot just a few blocks from the regular Oxford [00:16:01.272 – 00:16:02.032] Group meetings. [00:16:02.032 – 00:16:04.952] There was a footnote there on the Calvary M.. [00:16:04.952 – 00:16:07.191] Jay, are you back in the room? [00:16:07.191 – 00:16:10.932] I am.

[00:16:10.932 – 00:16:12.492] I, uh- Okay, I have it Jay. [00:16:12.492 – 00:16:12.842] You're okay. [00:16:12.842 – 00:16:17.612] A rescue operation run by Calvary Ep- Episcopalian C. in New York City. [00:16:17.612 – 00:16:27.612] But this eventually proved to be both too public and too unwieldy, and starting late in 1935, Bill moved those sessions to his house in Brooklyn, [00:16:27.612 – 00:16:31.972] where they began to hold regular Alcoholics only meetings on Sunday nights. [00:16:31.972 – 00:16:40.352] These early Brooklyn meetings began, quote, "using the Oxford Group principles," and were remarkably similar to what was happening at T. [00:16:40.352 – 00:16:42.192] Henry's house in Akron at that time.

[00:16:42.192 – 00:16:52.192] That is, they started with some quiet time, followed by Christian readings, and then talk by the leader, usually Bill, along with witnessing by other attendees, all of [00:16:52.192 – 00:16:54.892] which was book-ended by opening and closing prayers. [00:16:54.892 – 00:17:04.912] And because they did not include any non-alcoholic members in their group, an integral part of the Akron format, the meetings in New York almost immediately began to evolve [00:17:04.912 – 00:17:12.292] independently and have a much more specific emphasis on alcohol than in Akron, where drinking was rarely mentioned in their meetings. [00:17:12.292 – 00:17:22.412] Given both of these changes, many of the practices specific to the Oxford Group began to fade away as it, quote, "became clear," as W. so def- delicately [00:17:22.412 – 00:17:32.432] put it, "that the drunks just couldn't stand the Oxford Group pace." However, one Akron element that did linger for some time in New York was the belief that an [00:17:32.432 – 00:17:36.952] alcoholic had to make an explicit surrender to God if he wanted to stay sober.

[00:17:36.952 – 00:17:37.892] Footnote. [00:17:37.892 – 00:17:47.892] Whether or not time surrender was a requirement for attendance at New York meetings as it was in Akron is [00:17:47.892 – 00:17:48.512] not known. [00:17:48.512 – 00:17:59.032] The stories of both Hank P. and Fitz M., who sobered up in September and November of 1935 respectively, provide clear testimony [00:17:59.032 – 00:18:06.272] that a complete surrender to God was considered an essential requirement for anyone trying to build a solid foundation for ongoing sobriety. [00:18:06.272 – 00:18:16.472] Hank's rather awkward and rambling stream of consciousness Big Book story, entitled The Unbeliever, details the many agnostic arguments he formulated [00:18:16.472 – 00:18:21.412] while lying in his Townes H. bed, and then offered to Bill W. whenever he visited him there.

[00:18:21.412 – 00:18:29.772] But despite all his protestations of disbelief, Hank's story ends abruptly with a dramatic account of his surrender at the side of his bed. [00:18:29.772 – 00:18:33.232] "Brr, this floor is cold on my knees. [00:18:33.232 – 00:18:36.512] Why are these tears running like a river down my cheek? [00:18:36.512 – 00:18:46.572] God, have mercy on my soul." Similarly, Fitz M.'s present tense Big Book story, Our S. Friend, recounts the details of his surrender to God [00:18:46.572 – 00:18:47.492] at Townes H.. [00:18:47.492 – 00:18:52.272] "Suddenly I feel a wave of utter hopelessness sweep over me. [00:18:52.272 – 00:18:56.492] I'm in the bottom of hell, and there is a tremendous hope is born.

[00:18:56.492 – 00:18:58.992] It might be true that there is a God who can help me. [00:18:58.992 – 00:19:01.112] I tumble out of bed onto my knees. [00:19:01.112 – 00:19:04.432] I know not what to say, but slowly a great peace comes over me. [00:19:04.432 – 00:19:05.772] I feel lifted up. [00:19:05.772 – 00:19:06.872] I believe in God. [00:19:06.872 – 00:19:16.892] I crawl back into bed and sleep like a child." This requirement for a complete on your knees surrender continued to be an active part [00:19:16.892 – 00:19:26.912] of the New York program for m- for more than a year after these two men got sober, a fact that is illustrated in a letter Bill R. sent to Bill W. several years after he wrote his

[00:19:26.912 – 00:19:29.591] own Big Book story, A Businessman's Recovery. [00:19:29.591 – 00:19:39.512] According to this more detailed version of his recovery, Rudel said that as he was being discharged from Townes H. in February 1937, Dr. [00:19:39.512 – 00:19:44.752] S. referred him to W., suggesting he was someone who might be able to help him stay sober. [00:19:44.752 – 00:19:54.932] Desperate to stay stopped, Rudel and his wife Kathleen almost immediately visited the W. at their home in Brooklyn, and after some heartfelt discussion, Bill invited them both [00:19:54.932 – 00:20:05.742] upstairs where, as Rudel reminded him, "Kathleen and I knelt down in front of the fireplace in your upstairs parlor with both you and Lois, and I made the surrender." Mm-hmm. [00:20:05.742 – 00:20:15.752] But very slowly after this, during March and April 1937, Bill's relationship with the local Oxford Group began to deteriorate at an alarming [00:20:15.752 – 00:20:16.032] rate.

[00:20:16.032 – 00:20:26.292] That spring, W. discovered the alcoholics at the Calvary M. had been forbidden to attend the weekly meetings at his house in Brooklyn, and had even been told that they could not visit the W. [00:20:26.292 – 00:20:26.992] house for dinner. [00:20:26.992 – 00:20:36.992] Worse than this, he learned that word was spreading throughout the congregation say that the W. were, quote, "not maximum," meaning they were not sufficiently committed to the Oxford Group [00:20:36.992 – 00:20:37.452] program. [00:20:37.452 – 00:20:43.632] This is perhaps the strongest criticism that could be leveled against a group member without directly accusing them of sin. [00:20:43.632 – 00:20:53.922] The end came when an associate pastor at Calvary E. Church delivered a Sunday morning sermon directed against the, quote, "divergent work" of a, quote, "secret, [00:20:53.922 – 00:20:57.352] ashamed subgroup," which the congregation …

[00:20:57.352 – 00:21:03.412] within the congregation, a clear and caustic indictment of Bill W. and the work he was doing with alcoholics. [00:21:03.412 – 00:21:04.412] Footnote. [00:21:04.412 – 00:21:08.062] Bill, both Bill and Lois's- [00:21:08.176 – 00:21:17.916] Published recollections of exactly when these negative responses from the Oxford Group and its members took place are either vague or contradictory. [00:21:17.916 – 00:21:28.676] I've accepted Kurt, Kurtz's version of time sequence because it agrees with Bill's AA main events recollections, and also [00:21:28.676 – 00:21:34.796] because it is b- it was based on two personal interviews with Lois W.. [00:21:34.796 – 00:21:44.856] Regarding the timing of the break, it is worth noting that according to Lois's diary, uh, entries for 1937, she and

[00:21:44.856 – 00:21:54.916] Bill attended Oxford Group meetings, uh, on January 10th, 21, 22nd, 24th, on February 7th, 14th, 21, [00:21:54.916 – 00:21:58.606] 28th, and March 11, 21, and 28th. [00:21:58.606 – 00:22:05.935] But after March 28th, 1937, there is no further mention of any Oxford Group meetings in her diary. [00:22:05.935 – 00:22:16.046] In addition, Bill notes in main events 1937.1 that it was probably in the early part of the year, 1937, [00:22:16.046 – 00:22:20.256] that we completely withdrew from the Oxford Group in New York City. [00:22:20.256 – 00:22:23.396] The decision to leave the Oxford Group. [00:22:23.396 – 00:22:29.836] That sermon was the final blow, crystallizing all of Bill's dissatisfactions with the Oxford Group.

[00:22:29.836 – 00:22:39.916] Deeply committed to his work with drunks, and now finally admitting the impossibility of carrying on the alcoholic work in the atmosphere of the group, he decided it was [00:22:39.916 – 00:22:41.256] time for a complete break. [00:22:41.256 – 00:22:47.396] But Bill did not take this separation lightly, nor did he make the decision to quit the Oxford Group by himself. [00:22:47.396 – 00:22:58.136] According to Bill R., "The final parting came in the spring of 1937 because Kathleen and I started coming to meetings at your home in February of 1937, [00:22:58.136 – 00:23:02.256] and we attended with you meetings on Sunday nights in Sam S.'s church. [00:23:02.256 – 00:23:12.275] As we remember it, the decision to d- to disassociate from the Oxford Group was made at a meeting in your home, and at that time it was a very serious decision. [00:23:12.275 – 00:23:16.076] You talked it over at one of the group meetings, and the decision was made.

[00:23:16.076 – 00:23:22.836] This was, as we remember it, two or three months after February of 1937." Footnote. [00:23:22.836 – 00:23:32.836] Jim B., in his wildly inaccurate, uh, late 1940s history, the evolution of Alcoholics Anonymous, said the break from the Oxford [00:23:32.836 – 00:23:35.796] Group occurred in September of 1937. [00:23:35.796 – 00:23:44.036] He repeated this claim a few years, uh, later in a letter to Bill W., uh, dated January 17th, 1957. [00:23:44.036 – 00:23:54.536] Bill had sent out proof copies of, uh, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age to many people for comments, and Jim's quibble with the entire book [00:23:54.536 – 00:24:04.856] was to note it does not seem to be that I saw a copy of the letter from you and Hank to Sam S. resigning from the Oxford Group and dated [00:24:04.856 – 00:24:06.716] September 1937.

[00:24:06.716 – 00:24:07.676] Am I wrong? [00:24:07.676 – 00:24:17.716] GSO box, uh, 29, reel 13, 17.3, history book AA Comes of Age correspondence with members [00:24:17.716 – 00:24:18.616] mentioned in the book. [00:24:18.616 – 00:24:24.036] December, uh, uh, December marked page 46. [00:24:24.036 – 00:24:30.936] Despite this observation, Bill did not change the dates in his book based on Jim's, uh, contention. [00:24:30.936 – 00:24:39.616] As noted earlier, B. is the most unreliable witness we have for facts and dates in e- early AA history. [00:24:39.616 – 00:24:49.156] So I am reluctant to move the date of the break from the Oxford Group back by several months based on test- on his testimony alone.

[00:24:49.156 – 00:24:55.376] In addition, no such letter has been found in the S. archives. [00:24:55.376 – 00:25:04.976] Still, it is possible that he is right on this one particular fact, and that there was such a September letter. [00:25:04.976 – 00:25:06.816] Excuse me. [00:25:06.816 – 00:25:17.116] Uh, if that is the case, uh, then although the group had made a clear decision in April or May of 1937, [00:25:17.116 – 00:25:25.516] they did not formally notify S. of their discussion until a few months later. [00:25:25.516 – 00:25:35.656] Whenever the exact da- date is, it's clear that W. and the New York Group had completely severed their relationships before Bill and the others went to Akron for the October [00:25:35.656 – 00:25:45.436] 1937 counting noses meeting, and, uh, the subsequent, uh, vote taken there.

[00:25:45.436 – 00:25:55.436] A little over three years later, Bill was pressed for an explanation regarding New York's break with the Oxford Group, and he responded with a long and thoughtful [00:25:55.436 – 00:26:00.036] letter detailing at length eight reasons that made this separation necessary. [00:26:00.036 – 00:26:10.496] These reasons could be summarized as follows: one, the aggressive evangelism of the Oxford Group; two, their reliance on excessive personal publicity or prominence; [00:26:10.496 – 00:26:20.516] three, the unacceptability of the word absolute before the virtues honesty, purity, unselfishness, and love, four virtues that Bill [00:26:20.516 – 00:26:25.036] rather testily claimed were quote, "As much practiced by AA members as by- [00:26:25.240 – 00:26:26.939] Any other group of people, end quote. [00:26:26.939 – 00:26:36.480] Four, a coercive nature of guidance for others, and of the subsequent checking by those who had received that guidance to ensure that it was being followed.

[00:26:36.480 – 00:26:46.860] Five, the practice of writing down guidance during quiet time, which according to Bill, quote, "Was too often made ridiculous by novices scribbling messages [00:26:46.860 – 00:26:57.140] from God in notebooks." Six, we found, he observed with some irritation and judgment, that the principles of tolerance of love had to be more emphasized [00:26:57.140 – 00:27:01.360] in their actual practice than they were in the Oxford Group, especially tolerance. [00:27:01.360 – 00:27:05.800] Seven, there could be no religious requirement for membership in AA. [00:27:05.800 – 00:27:13.240] And finally, eight, the kind of dogmatism demanded by the Oxford Group necessarily precluded out Catholics from joining. [00:27:13.240 – 00:27:23.560] Given all of that, he noted, "I am always glad to say privately that some of the Oxford Group presentation and emphasis upon the Christian message saved my life. [00:27:23.560 – 00:27:33.780] Yet it is equally true that other attributes of the Oxford Group nearly got me drunk again, and we long since discovered that if we were to approach alcoholics suc-

[00:27:33.780 – 00:27:36.340] successfully, these would have to be abandoned. [00:27:36.340 – 00:27:47.720] Recovery being a life or death matter for most alcoholics, it becomes a question of adopting that which would work and rejecting that which would not." The [00:27:47.720 – 00:27:58.000] decision to leave the Oxford Group in New York was one of the most critical turning points in the history of Alcoholics Anonymous, marking a decisive step away from any pre-existing organization [00:27:58.000 – 00:28:08.000] or belief, and a commitment to both an evolving operational structure and a set of principles that would increasingly be determined by pragmatic results rather by- [00:28:08.000 – 00:28:10.240] than the dictates of any specific doctrines. [00:28:10.240 – 00:28:20.260] Finally liberated from the structure, dogmas, and culture of the Oxford Group, the New York alcoholics were free to create a set of beliefs and practices based on their collective [00:28:20.260 – 00:28:27.020] experiences, a process that soon evolved into something that looks very much like today's fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[00:28:27.020 – 00:28:30.340] A pragmatic approach to religious beliefs. [00:28:30.340 – 00:28:38.300] The separation didn't mean Bill W. had abandoned everything he had learned during more than two years with the Oxford Group. [00:28:38.300 – 00:28:48.380] "They had certainly shown us what to do," he admitted, "but just as importantly, we had also learned from them what not to do as far as alcoholics were concerned." This [00:28:48.380 – 00:28:58.740] meant that most of the spec- specifically religious aspe- aspects associated with the group, along with their more authoritarian practices, such as team guidance [00:28:58.740 – 00:29:01.680] and the four absolutes, were soon dropped in New York. [00:29:01.680 – 00:29:10.100] But if Bill and his group weren't going to follow the religious and evangelical route outlined by the Oxford Group, how then should they proceed? [00:29:10.100 – 00:29:18.940] The fact was Bill W. had been moving himself and his group away from the structured religious approach to sobriety well before the spring of 1937.

[00:29:18.940 – 00:29:28.620] Based on their collective experience, he had come to believe that men had to be led, not pushed, because many of them just wanted to find sobriety, nothing else. [00:29:28.620 – 00:29:33.540] They clung to their other defects, letting go only little by little. [00:29:33.540 – 00:29:38.320] They simply did, they simply did not want to get too good too soon. [00:29:38.320 – 00:29:48.320] In short, the Akron insistence that a new recru- recruit must remove from his life other sins such as hatred, adultery, and others which [00:29:48.320 – 00:29:58.260] frequently accompany alcoholism, and unless he will do this absolutely, Smith and his associates refused to work with him, was not the model being followed in New York. [00:29:58.260 – 00:30:08.320] The culture of the fellowship on the East C. was much more tolerant than what might be considered about what's, of what might be considered sinful behavior, just [00:30:08.320 – 00:30:10.360] so long as the new recruit wasn't drinking.

[00:30:10.360 – 00:30:20.340] In addition, most of W.'s potential recruits were awfully hard-headed guys who repeatedly had difficulty with many of the teachings of the Oxford Group. [00:30:20.340 – 00:30:30.380] The program of reco- recovery certainly required a S. religious foundation, but that foundation did not necessarily have to a- adhere to any specific [00:30:30.380 – 00:30:34.880] set of beliefs or to the practices prescribed by any particular church. [00:30:34.880 – 00:30:41.840] Yes, you had to believe, but what you had to believe in was becoming more and more a matter of personal choice. [00:30:41.840 – 00:30:52.060] In that same 1940 letter where he talked about the reasons for leaving the Oxford Group, Bill was unusually candid about his own religious beliefs, [00:30:52.060 – 00:31:02.420] confiding that, "By degree, I find that I have become a rather orthodox Christian, but I do not find, at least within our group, that I can better serve God by demanding [00:31:02.420 – 00:31:03.620] that anyone agree with me.

[00:31:03.620 – 00:31:13.660] If I can be used to help people find a consciousness of the presence of God, I hope I shall please Christ quite as much if I still permit each individual [00:31:13.660 – 00:31:16.700] to attach his own la- uh, label to that experience. [00:31:16.700 – 00:31:20.280] Of course, this is no final conclusion on my part. [00:31:20.280 – 00:31:21.660] I may be entirely wrong. [00:31:21.660 – 00:31:31.440] But I fancy Christ himself would prefer the Hottentot happily aware of God and usefully serving him than he would the most orthodox were he in a state of useless drunkenness. [00:31:31.440 – 00:31:38.580] I think Christ would be interested in Christian results rather than Christian professions." And we have a footnote on Hottentot. [00:31:38.580 – 00:31:41.560] Referring to the Hoi-

[00:31:43.004 – 00:31:49.744] people who are native to South A., these days the term is considered derogatory. [00:31:49.744 – 00:31:59.844] It is frankly a radically pragmatic and amazingly democratic approach to the concept of religious beliefs, one that Bill W. carefully laid as [00:31:59.844 – 00:32:03.484] a critical foundation stone in the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:32:03.484 – 00:32:06.504] A broader formulation of the solution. [00:32:06.504 – 00:32:16.524] The net result of Bill's break with the Oxford Group in New York was to accelerate his evolving understanding of alcoholism and to move him further along [00:32:16.524 – 00:32:26.864] the road towards a broader formulation of the solution, one that required not only a much more open religious component, but also one that emphasized the [00:32:26.864 – 00:32:31.804] critical physical and psychological elements that needed to be addressed for a successful recovery.

[00:32:31.804 – 00:32:36.044] As early as May 1935, Dr. [00:32:36.044 – 00:32:39.604] S. had criticized the fervor of Bill's religious approach. [00:32:39.604 – 00:32:49.804] At that time, W.'s failure to sober up a single person during the five months since he himself had quit drinking was driving him to the brink of despair, and S. was worried [00:32:49.804 – 00:32:51.324] Bill himself might pick up a drink. [00:32:51.324 – 00:32:58.483] "Stop preaching at them," he told the even- evangelical Wils- W., "and give them the hard medical facts first. [00:32:58.483 – 00:33:05.004] This may soften them up at length so that they will be willing to do anything to get well. [00:33:05.004 – 00:33:09.804] Then they may accept those religious ideas of yours, and even a god." Footnote.

[00:33:09.804 – 00:33:19.914] As noted before, the actual quote in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age uses the word "spiritual" and "higher power" rather than [00:33:19.914 – 00:33:30.424] "religious" or "god," but the former are merely later substitutions by W. in an effort to make them conform to the terminology and beliefs [00:33:30.424 – 00:33:34.084] that were current in AA in 1957. [00:33:34.084 – 00:33:37.684] The medical aspects. [00:33:37.684 – 00:33:47.824] S.'s theories, his understanding of the hard medical facts about alcoholism, are most famously presented in The Doctor's Opinion, the opening chapter of the Big Book, [00:33:47.824 – 00:33:58.424] which Bill W. once neatly summarized as, quote, "The obsession of the mind that compels us to drink, and the allergy of the body that condemns us to go mad or die." [00:33:58.424 – 00:34:08.544] Bill was very familiar with both aspects of this theory, not only from his own life experiences, but also from his observations of so many other drunks in the five months since he had

[00:34:08.544 – 00:34:10.464] himself achieved a sobriety. [00:34:10.464 – 00:34:18.064] Bill took S- S.'s advice, and had his first real success with the very next drunk he connected with, Dr. [00:34:18.064 – 00:34:19.344] Bob S. in Akron. [00:34:19.344 – 00:34:25.044] During their first meeting in May 1935, Bill specifically told Bob about Dr. [00:34:25.044 – 00:34:35.054] S.'s description of alcoholism and its hopelessness, and armed with this knowledge, Bob began to pursue the spiritual remedy for his malady with a willingness he had never [00:34:35.054 – 00:34:37.784] fore- never before been able to muster. [00:34:37.784 – 00:34:47.784] W. continued with this S. emphasis when he returned to New York in late 1935, enthusiastically pointing out to new prospects how hopeless they

[00:34:47.784 – 00:34:52.824] were medically, because it was this technique that had apparently turned the corner with Bob. [00:34:52.824 – 00:35:02.973] As B. began to see some success in his efforts in New York, his confidence in S.'s advice about emphasizing the medical hopelessness of the malady [00:35:02.973 – 00:35:08.564] as a best place to start with a new prospect grew rapidly, and he embraced the approach a- as his own. [00:35:08.564 – 00:35:18.664] Unfortunately, it was exactly this S. emphasis on the medical aspects of alcoholism to which the Oxford G. had very S. objections. [00:35:18.664 – 00:35:28.884] They were insistent in their belief that there was a purely religious solution available for curing this problem, one that, if diligently followed, would certainly relieve the alcoholic [00:35:28.884 – 00:35:30.144] of his compulsion to drink. [00:35:30.144 – 00:35:40.204] Bill considered such a stance truly a heartbreaker, for we felt we owed these alcoholics everything that could help them, including an understanding of the important medical

[00:35:40.204 – 00:35:41.274] side of the problem. [00:35:41.274 – 00:35:43.984] The psychological understanding. [00:35:43.984 – 00:35:54.204] Besides religion and medicine, the final component, uh, component of W.'s evolving approach to recovery was a two-sided psychological understanding [00:35:54.204 – 00:35:55.443] of the drinker's problem. [00:35:55.443 – 00:36:05.544] The first half of that understanding was his iden- his identification of the peculiar mental twist that he now believed to be at the very heart of the alcoholic's problem. [00:36:05.544 – 00:36:15.584] S. had explained how the phenomenon of craving invariably set in once an alcoholic took the first drink, but what baffled Bill W. was the complete failure of the [00:36:15.584 – 00:36:21.604] alcoholic's ability to refuse that first drink when he had no alcohol whatsoever in his body.

[00:36:21.604 – 00:36:31.804] Why was it that all the accumulated memories of past disasters and of present promises had absolutely no impact on his decision to start [00:36:31.804 – 00:36:32.204] drinking? [00:36:32.204 – 00:36:42.524] W.'s own behavior, most notably at the beginning of, of his final drunken spree in, on Armistice D. 1934, was inexplicable to him [00:36:42.524 – 00:36:46.864] on any other terms than to admit that he was as sick in his mind as he was in his body. [00:36:46.864 – 00:36:49.084] We have a footnote on Armistice D.. [00:36:49.084 – 00:36:59.104] For Bill's detailed and dramatic account of his last slip on November 11th, 1934, see Bill W., My F. 40 Years, page- [00:36:59.248 – 00:37:06.988] Which is 118 to 20 The second psychological problem didn't concern the source of the problem.

[00:37:06.988 – 00:37:09.988] It was related to the solution to the alcoholic's dilemma. [00:37:09.988 – 00:37:11.168] Although Dr. [00:37:11.168 – 00:37:21.208] S. did not invent this idea, he can fairly be credited with clearly formulating an early explanation of the concept in his n- April 1937 paper [00:37:21.208 – 00:37:23.388] entitled Reclamation of the Alcoholic. [00:37:23.388 – 00:37:33.388] That article outlines his own three-step medical procedure for the successful treatment of alcoholics, and fully describes the last three of these steps, the [00:37:33.388 – 00:37:37.368] last of these three steps, which is, which he called moral psychology. [00:37:37.368 – 00:37:38.468] Footnote.

[00:37:38.468 – 00:37:48.568] We might define that these pluses of, or [00:37:48.568 – 00:37:49.988] phases as follows, I'm sorry. [00:37:49.988 – 00:37:52.988] Um, one, management of the acute crisis. [00:37:52.988 – 00:37:59.808] Two, physical normalization and cell revitalization so that the craving is eliminated. [00:37:59.808 – 00:38:08.128] Three, mental and normal stabilization, which naturally involves some n- normal psychology. [00:38:08.128 – 00:38:10.868] S. rec- reclamation of the drunk. [00:38:10.868 – 00:38:20.528] Note, the use of the word normal twice at the end of this sentence makes little sense here, and even less sense in the face of what follows in this article.

[00:38:20.528 – 00:38:30.688] It is, in all likelihood, a typographical error, and should be moral in both cases, as it does throughout the rest of the article. [00:38:30.688 – 00:38:34.008] So about moral psychology. [00:38:34.008 – 00:38:44.038] This phrase has caused considerable confusion over the years because it appears twice in S.'s big book chapter, The Doctor's Opinion, without any explanation of its exact meaning. [00:38:44.038 – 00:38:54.068] But in this article, the doctor is clear that the primary function of moral psychology is to address the underlying egotism found in alcoholics [00:38:54.068 – 00:38:56.798] whose interests center entirely in themselves. [00:38:56.798 – 00:39:02.608] And when successfully applied, it liberates them to the point where they begin to ask how they can help others. [00:39:02.608 – 00:39:13.348] The purpose of moral psychology then is to assist alcoholics in overcoming their perspective of extreme self-centeredness, and encourage them to adopt an attitude of consideration

[00:39:13.348 – 00:39:14.568] and care for others. [00:39:14.568 – 00:39:23.688] In S.'s opinion, this shift of perspective away from self and towards others was of paramount importance in keeping alcoholics from taking their next drink. [00:39:23.688 – 00:39:32.348] To illustrate this, S. concluded the final section of this paper by presenting two case histories of successful reclamation through moral psychology. [00:39:32.348 – 00:39:37.508] Certainly H. P. and Bill W., although the details do not fit their stories exactly. [00:39:37.508 – 00:39:47.688] In his description of the second patient, W., S. notes, "He gives part of his income to help others in his former condition, and he has gathered about him a group of over [00:39:47.688 – 00:39:54.747] 50 men, all free from their former alcoholism through the application of this method of treatment and moral psychology. [00:39:54.747 – 00:40:04.788] To such patients, we recommend moral psychology, and in those of our patients who have joined or initiated such group, the change has been spectacular." This belief that

[00:40:04.788 – 00:40:14.828] self-centeredness is the central problem of an alcoholic, that it can only be overcome by a life based on usefulness to others, are two of the most fundamental and [00:40:14.828 – 00:40:18.408] often repeated premises to be found in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:40:18.408 – 00:40:19.328] Footnote. [00:40:19.328 – 00:40:29.948] Those two beliefs are so fundamental to the message of the book that a list of comprehensive references [00:40:29.948 – 00:40:32.348] should necessarily be pages long. [00:40:32.348 – 00:40:40.878] It, it is, for instance, a central message in chapter five, selfishness, self-centeredness that we think is the root of our troubles, page 62. [00:40:40.878 – 00:40:50.008] And there are at least 70 specific mentions of the need to be useful, helpful, of service, or altruistic throughout the book.

[00:40:50.008 – 00:41:00.008] In brief, whenever Bill W. or other early me- A members talked about psychology in relation to their program of recovery, they were [00:41:00.008 – 00:41:03.268] referring to one or the other of these two concepts. [00:41:03.268 – 00:41:13.308] Either the insanity of taking the first drink and the need for an effective spiritual defense against it, or the alcoholic ego, and of the need to cure that problem through a [00:41:13.308 – 00:41:16.908] change of attitude and positive engagement with other people. [00:41:16.908 – 00:41:18.687] A bigger tent. [00:41:18.687 – 00:41:28.788] Along with a broader approach to religion and a specific inclusion of both medical and psychological elements in his evolving understanding of recovery, [00:41:28.788 – 00:41:33.648] Bill W. brought one more important personal factor into all his work with alcoholics.

[00:41:33.648 – 00:41:39.388] He wholeheartedly believed that everyone had an honest desire to stop drinking. [00:41:39.388 – 00:41:40.148] Footnote. [00:41:40.148 – 00:41:50.248] The, this phase was explicitly used to describe the, the only requirement for membership [00:41:50.248 – 00:41:58.408] in the forward to the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous, page V111. [00:41:58.408 – 00:42:03.008] So who had an honest desire to stop drinking should be given the opportunity to get sober. [00:42:03.008 – 00:42:08.568] Bill's compassion for the suffering alcoholic was genuine, deep, and profound. [00:42:08.568 – 00:42:15.408] So deep, in fact, that he was reluctant to turn anyone away from his group in New York, no matter what their belief system might be.

[00:42:15.408 – 00:42:16.158] This- [00:42:16.272 – 00:42:24.592] His dedication to an ever-expanding tolerance was one of the most influential and important ideas he took away from his negative experiences with the Oxford Group. [00:42:24.592 – 00:42:33.432] And his ongoing efforts to make the fellowship more and more inclusive became one of the outstanding hallmarks of Bill W.'s long leadership of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:42:33.432 – 00:42:43.451] Throughout his life, Bill continually worked to make AA into a bigger tent, and then one even bigger than that, a tent that increasingly embraced those who, [00:42:43.452 – 00:42:46.492] for whatever reason, had previously been excluded from membership. [00:42:46.492 – 00:42:54.172] There are many stories attesting to Bill W.'s efforts to open the doors of Alcoholics Anonymous a little wider every year. [00:42:54.172 – 00:42:59.882] One typical example occurred in the AA clubhouse in Manhattan just after the end of the Second W. War.

[00:42:59.882 – 00:43:04.832] In those days, visitors entering the building were greeted by a member sitting at the front desk. [00:43:04.832 – 00:43:15.112] One day in 1945, a relatively new member, Barry L., was working the desk when he was confronted by an unusual arrival, a Black ex-convict [00:43:15.112 – 00:43:21.102] drunk and addict, there were no Black members in New York at this time, who was hungry, broke, and homeless. [00:43:21.102 – 00:43:31.112] The man also admitted to being a homosexual, an admission that came as no surprise to Barry since the fellow had long, flowing, long and flowing bleached blonde hair that covered one half of [00:43:31.112 – 00:43:35.072] his face while the other side revealed he was an expert with makeup. [00:43:35.072 – 00:43:44.072] Barry was recently sober, and he was not about to take responsibility for letting this man into the meeting, so he called several of the older members out of the back room to make the decision. [00:43:44.072 – 00:43:48.972] But this only provoked a long and wandering argument that clearly had no hope of resolution.

[00:43:48.972 – 00:43:55.792] Finally, in frustration, Barry got the man a cup of coffee and called Bill W. at his home in Bedford H., New York. [00:43:55.792 – 00:44:02.642] He described the prospective new member to Bill in detail, and then he said, "We don't know what in the world to do with him. [00:44:02.642 – 00:44:10.492] He needs all kinds of help." After a short silence, Bill asked Barry to run over the list of problems and objections one more time, and Barry did so. [00:44:10.492 – 00:44:17.072] "Now," said Bill, "did you say he was a drunk?" "Oh, yeah," Barry replied, "there's no question about that. [00:44:17.072 – 00:44:27.072] He's definitely a drunk." After another brief silence, Bill made his decision and said, "Well, I think that's the only question we have any right to ask." Barry invited the man to come into [00:44:27.072 – 00:44:27.472] the meeting. [00:44:27.472 – 00:44:32.452] In B. W.'s AA, everyone deserved a chance to get sober.

[00:44:32.452 – 00:44:42.452] Perhaps even more important than Bill's broad-mindedness in relation to the marginalized members of society was his growing acceptance of people whose beliefs about God [00:44:42.452 – 00:44:50.572] were completely different from those of traditional Christianity, and eventually some that did not even accept the most basic Western concepts of divinity. [00:44:50.572 – 00:45:00.052] One example of this enlarged religious tolerance appeared in print in 1957 when Bill related the story of the 12 steps being shown to a Buddhist leader for his approval. [00:45:00.052 – 00:45:04.772] The monk read them over carefully and then commented, "Why, these are fine. [00:45:04.772 – 00:45:13.352] Since, since we are Buddhist, we don't understand God just as you do, but might be slightly more acceptable if you inserted the word good in your steps instead of God. [00:45:13.352 – 00:45:16.992] Nevertheless, you say in these steps that it is God as you understand Him. [00:45:16.992 – 00:45:18.652] That clears up the point for us.

[00:45:18.652 – 00:45:28.872] Yes, AA's 12 steps will certainly be accepted by the Buddhists around here." Bill admitted some members might find this to be a serious watering down of AA's [00:45:28.872 – 00:45:29.292] message. [00:45:29.292 – 00:45:34.252] "But here we must remember," he continued, "that AA steps are suggestions only. [00:45:34.252 – 00:45:39.012] A belief in them as they stand is not at all a requirement for membership among us. [00:45:39.012 – 00:45:49.552] In the desire to stop drinking, that qualifies someone to become a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, that and nothing else." But in early June 1938, [00:45:49.552 – 00:45:59.632] as Bill W. sat down to write this critical chapter for their proposed book, a chapter that was supposed to clearly outline the basics of their collectal- collective approach to sobriety, [00:45:59.632 – 00:46:05.592] sophisticated problems involving gay Black men and atheistic Buddhists had not even hit the horizon yet.

[00:46:05.592 – 00:46:09.612] In J. 1938, the problem in New York City was Jimmy B.. [00:46:09.612 – 00:46:14.192] Challenges from outspoken atheists. [00:46:14.192 – 00:46:20.152] B. came from Washington, DC, where he quit drinking on January 8th, 1938. [00:46:20.152 – 00:46:24.232] Two weeks later, he traveled up to New York to meet Bill W. and Hank P.. [00:46:24.232 – 00:46:35.172] It turned out that Jim already knew Hank because 11 years earlier, P. had fired him from a very good job after he had totaled three or four cars on him while driving drunk. [00:46:35.172 – 00:46:42.692] No matter, Jim was really enjoying his newfound sobriety and this swell pair of screwballs, W. and P., he had fallen in with. [00:46:42.692 – 00:46:47.432] His only complaint was all they talked about on that first weekend was God.

[00:46:47.432 – 00:46:55.402] And then along with the rest of the men in the regular Sunday night meeting, they always seemed to come back to praising the ways in which God had touched them personally on the shoulder. [00:46:55.402 – 00:47:05.252] As far as Jim could tell, it was all about God, and that was a serious problem because he was a man with, with a profound aversion to all things religious or theological. [00:47:05.252 – 00:47:08.492] Jim B. was a confirmed and outspoken atheist. [00:47:08.492 – 00:47:13.432] He was, in fact, the kind of man who would not have had a chance to get sober in Akron. [00:47:13.432 – 00:47:16.542] It wasn't just his lack of belief that was a problem. [00:47:16.542 – 00:47:22.982] Many people, including Bill W. himself and his right-hand man, Hank P., had started out as agnostics or atheists. [00:47:22.982 – 00:47:33.182] The problem was that B. was not in the least bit shy about loudly proclaiming his disbelief and accompanying it with a liberal dose of sarcastic commentary about how stupid and unnecessary

[00:47:33.306 – 00:47:36.976] silly it was to expect anyone to believe in God just because he wanted to quit drinking. [00:47:36.976 – 00:47:38.636] What did God have to do with it? [00:47:38.636 – 00:47:48.876] There wasn't a glimmer of hope that B. would ever make a personal surrender to God, either in public or in private, and in Akron, as already noted, a new member was not admitted into the group until he had fulfilled [00:47:48.876 – 00:47:50.076] that basic requirement. [00:47:50.076 – 00:48:00.176] In N. York, however, W.'s desire to be inclusive and his reluctance to turn away anyone who wanted to stop drinking had already overridden many of these old beliefs, [00:48:00.176 – 00:48:03.256] and he insisted B. be given a chance. [00:48:03.256 – 00:48:09.676] Bill was confident that sooner or later Jimmy would come around to the belief in God, or if not, that he would surely drink.

[00:48:09.676 – 00:48:19.676] Footnote T. belief that exposure to the program of recovery as embodied in the 12 steps would eventually lead a person [00:48:19.676 – 00:48:25.936] either to believe in a personal god or a drink was one of Bill W.'s lifelong beliefs. [00:48:25.936 – 00:48:36.076] In his May, 1944 address at the annual meeting of the Medical S. of the State of New York section on neurology and psychiatry, he said, "The new [00:48:36.076 – 00:48:46.176] man, dot, dot, dot, sometimes eliminates the spiritual angle from the 12 steps to recovery and wholly relies upon honesty, tolerance, [00:48:46.176 – 00:48:47.326] and working with others. [00:48:47.326 – 00:48:57.696] But it is curious and interesting to note that faith always comes to those who try this simple approach with an open mind, and [00:48:57.696 – 00:49:08.056] in the meantime stay sober." In the same vein, uh, see the lines that follow his 1957, uh, comments regarding the Buddhist story

[00:49:08.056 – 00:49:13.336] that are noted above from Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, page 81. [00:49:13.336 – 00:49:23.376] Hank endorsed this liberal approach, and even went so far as to hire B., who had an excellent record as a salesman just so long as he wasn't drinking, to go on the road [00:49:23.376 – 00:49:25.796] selling automobile polish for honor dealers. [00:49:25.796 – 00:49:35.816] Footnote T. was most likely for a product made by a company called Stain Ox that was located [00:49:35.816 – 00:49:38.336] in Roselle, uh, New Jersey. [00:49:38.336 – 00:49:48.336] In his big book story, Jim, uh, incorrectly states that Bill and Hank had just taken over a small automobile polish company, but there's no evidence that [00:49:48.336 – 00:49:51.796] Hank had anything other than a distribution deal with this company.

[00:49:51.796 – 00:50:02.296] Bill called it simply a promising interest in Stain Ox in January 7th of 1939, Document 100 Men I.., GSO [00:50:02.296 – 00:50:12.376] box 59, 1939, folder C, Document 1939, 26 to 39, uh, 32, page [00:50:12.376 – 00:50:12.816] six. [00:50:12.816 – 00:50:22.816] Supporting this, uh, this contribution of distribut- of the distribution deal is the fact that Stain Ox was one of [00:50:22.816 – 00:50:32.896] the original investments in Works P., eight shares for $200, something that would not have happened if Hank had been required to put [00:50:32.896 – 00:50:34.676] up money for those shares. [00:50:34.676 – 00:50:36.536] He was broke.

[00:50:36.536 – 00:50:46.636] See the list of shareholders in Works P., May 15th, 1940, GSO box, uh, box 61, folder G, 1940 [00:50:46.636 – 00:50:49.936] Works P. Company, page 76. [00:50:49.936 – 00:51:00.016] Note, this is a typical example of the wildly inaccurate statements that B., uh, is commonly makes in relation to factual [00:51:00.016 – 00:51:00.596] details. [00:51:00.596 – 00:51:11.516] Because of this, I've been extremely hesitant to accept many of his claims on face value, and have r- relied on secondary source substantiations [00:51:11.516 – 00:51:12.536] wherever possible. [00:51:12.536 – 00:51:22.916] This is not to say that everything Jim said was inaccurate, but the percentage of his statements that are contradicted by contemporary documents is

[00:51:22.916 – 00:51:24.096] certainly high. [00:51:24.096 – 00:51:25.896] Amen. [00:51:25.896 – 00:51:34.056] Going one step further, Hank even agreed to put Jimmy up in his house in Montclair, New Jersey whenever he wasn't out on the road traveling. [00:51:34.056 – 00:51:39.236] But for months, B. neither changed his mind about God, nor did he drink. [00:51:39.236 – 00:51:44.196] He just became an increasingly more vocal and annoying problem child within the group. [00:51:44.196 – 00:51:49.636] By his own description, he was a, a shock to the Sunday night meetings at Bill's house in Brooklyn. [00:51:49.636 – 00:52:00.156] "I was a menace to serenity those first few months, for I took every opportunity to lambast that spiritual angle," as we called it, "or anything else that had a, any tinge of theology."

[00:52:00.156 – 00:52:10.316] His constant outspoken condemnation of the God idea upset the New York members so much that according to Jim, they held prayer meetings hoping to find a way to get me to heave ho, [00:52:10.316 – 00:52:12.756] but at the same time, stay tolerant and spiritual. [00:52:12.756 – 00:52:19.676] The group was, however, never able to re- resolve this perplexing problem, so by default Jim was allowed to stay. [00:52:19.676 – 00:52:28.576] Bill W. wrote his own description of what it was like during these first few months of 1938 when Jim B. showed up at the meeting every week ranting about the God problem. [00:52:28.576 – 00:52:33.496] "Like a four-ton bomb, the new member exploded among our small group of drunks. [00:52:33.496 – 00:52:37.896] As we were then very young, no one had ever seen anybody like Jimmy. [00:52:37.896 – 00:52:39.796] Jimmy knew just what he was after.

[00:52:39.796 – 00:52:41.416] He wanted to stop drinking. [00:52:41.416 – 00:52:49.176] But there was no doubt about it, enthusiastic, sincere, aggressive, he was all of these, but Jimmy was a man of fixed ideas. [00:52:49.176 – 00:52:50.146] Very fixed." And- [00:52:50.320 – 00:52:56.700] As we soon discovered, rising to his feet at the meeting, Jimmy stridently declared, "Damn this God business. [00:52:56.700 – 00:52:57.500] It's the bunk. [00:52:57.500 – 00:53:01.260] I don't need it to make this program work, and neither does anybody else. [00:53:01.260 – 00:53:02.860] It's a lot of superstition.

[00:53:02.860 – 00:53:06.619] We ought to stand on our own feet, get honest, and work with other alcoholics. [00:53:06.619 – 00:53:07.840] That's problem enough. [00:53:07.840 – 00:53:12.020] Let's skip this God stuff." And so the trouble began. [00:53:12.020 – 00:53:17.240] Was it not our experience that we must live by spiritual principles or drink and so die? [00:53:17.240 – 00:53:18.840] Of c- of course it was. [00:53:18.840 – 00:53:21.600] The spiritual angle was the heart of the program. [00:53:21.600 – 00:53:27.160] Some of us had been unbelievers, but we had come open-minded to the group and had acquired faith.

[00:53:27.160 – 00:53:31.480] But here came a man shouting that the very grace by which we were living was ridiculous. [00:53:31.480 – 00:53:34.740] We tried every conceivable means of bringing Jimmy around. [00:53:34.740 – 00:53:44.860] General remonstrance, angry argument, condescending pity, the advice that he was destroying our newcomers' chances by his awful heresy, exclusion from our councils, [00:53:44.860 – 00:53:47.580] and finally, the threat of expulsion from our group. [00:53:47.580 – 00:53:49.780] None of these devices worked. [00:53:49.780 – 00:53:54.080] As well try to soften cold steel in a candle flame. [00:53:54.080 – 00:54:00.100] B. was proving to be an enormous challenge to Bill W.'s desire for an open door policy.

[00:54:00.100 – 00:54:10.420] But whatever the dill- difficulties, and however uncomfortable it might have been at times, Bill persevered in his tolerance and his commitment to the principle that the only requirement for membership was an [00:54:10.420 – 00:54:15.300] honest desire to stop drinking, and on that score, Jimmy absolutely qualified. [00:54:15.300 – 00:54:18.340] But B.'s presence wasn't the only problem. [00:54:18.340 – 00:54:28.620] His candid and unrepentant disbelief while he continued to stay sober encouraged Hank P. to become increasingly more open about his own feelings, that the group was placing [00:54:28.620 – 00:54:38.840] far too much emphasis on the religious angle, and that they would have more success with new prospects and drive fewer people away if they would just confine themselves to the psychological [00:54:38.840 – 00:54:40.520] aspect of repa- recovery. [00:54:40.520 – 00:54:48.860] In H.'s opinion, the most effective way to gain a newcomer's attention was to talk to him about how powerless he was over the first drink.

[00:54:48.860 – 00:54:58.180] The peculiar mental trist- twist that took him back to drinking, and about his need to become more selfless and caring for others. [00:54:58.180 – 00:54:59.560] Moral psychology. [00:54:59.560 – 00:55:09.170] Hank has frequently been portrayed as an agnostic and even as an atheist, mostly based on his reput- reported insistence of leaving God out of the Big Book. [00:55:09.170 – 00:55:18.340] But W. later noticed Hank had, had been very agnostic and it was because of this that he thought a psychological book should be written. [00:55:18.340 – 00:55:26.120] But P.'s own outspoken objections to W.'s constant emphasis on religion was not because he had no faith in a higher power. [00:55:26.120 – 00:55:31.460] Hank was a believer, but his faith was much more along deist lines than anything else. [00:55:31.460 – 00:55:32.380] Footnote.

[00:55:32.380 – 00:55:43.360] Merton M.'s unfinished and unpublished manuscript, Black S., focuses primarily on Hank P., and [00:55:43.360 – 00:55:50.860] he repeatedly and credibly makes the point that Hank was neither an atheist nor an agnostic after he got sober. [00:55:50.860 – 00:55:53.900] See, for instance, Black S., page 48. [00:55:53.900 – 00:56:02.420] Support for that understanding of P.'s religious, uh, convictions will be presented later in the story here. [00:56:02.420 – 00:56:12.480] Given this different understanding of God, he credited his own sobriety more to the psychological changes he had made than he did to the powerful hand of the [00:56:12.480 – 00:56:15.600] providential God to which Bill W. always gave credit. [00:56:15.600 – 00:56:22.220] More than that, he felt that such an explicit religious emphasis would prove to be a marketing disaster.

[00:56:22.220 – 00:56:32.400] He knew his own story and how resistant he had been to the God idea while he was drinking, and he feared Bill W.'s constant mention of God and religion would alienate the majority of ac- active alcoholics [00:56:32.400 – 00:56:36.720] from the very start and therefore deny them any possible chance of recovery. [00:56:36.720 – 00:56:46.980] Jim B.'s volatile presence in the group provided Hank with a perfect foil for making his increas- increasingly strident arguments about the need for, to de-emphasize [00:56:46.980 – 00:56:54.320] the religious and present their program in a book that used a much more general psychological term that would not immediately drive away readers. [00:56:54.320 – 00:57:04.560] While admitting the religious component to be important for any long-term sobriety, Hank, Hank felt just as strongly that recovery would be accessible to more people [00:57:04.560 – 00:57:13.200] if it was presented to them from the psychological viewpoint first, with the religious element being slowly introduced at some time later in the process. [00:57:13.200 – 00:57:19.040] Given all of these circumstances, W.'s challenge was beyond formidable.

[00:57:19.040 – 00:57:20.960] It seemed impossible. [00:57:20.960 – 00:57:30.980] How could he possibly write something that would accommodate the very different and liberal opinions being adopted by his group in New York City while simultaneously satisfying the [00:57:30.980 – 00:57:36.140] more rigid Oxford group model practiced in the larger context of the sober men out in Akron? [00:57:36.140 – 00:57:46.560] Among his many talents, Bill W. was an accomplished pol- politician, and he could be absolutely brilliant when dealing with the squabbling factions clamoring for his attention and approval [00:57:46.560 – 00:57:50.120] throughout his many years as the unofficial leader of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:57:50.120 – 00:57:58.100] But in this case, it was just not possible to s- to satisfy these two divergent and conflicting approaches simultaneously. [00:57:58.100 – 00:58:07.090] So in the end, Bill chose to steer a middle course by focusing primarily on his own experiences in New York while making every effort to present those expe-

[00:58:07.301 – 00:58:09.032] experiences in a way he hoped Dr. [00:58:09.032 – 00:58:12.492] Bob and the other Ohio members would find acceptable. [00:58:12.492 – 00:58:15.951] Thank you, Bill S. and Jay S.. [00:58:15.951 – 00:58:22.232] We have part two next week when we're gonna turn the tables, and we'll have Jay reading and Bill S. doing the footnotes next week. [00:58:22.232 – 00:58:24.412] Please come back and acknowledge, support readers. [00:58:24.412 – 00:58:24.972] Thank you. [00:58:24.972 – 00:58:27.332] Great job, guys.

[00:58:27.332 – 00:58:28.872] Thank you. [00:58:28.872 – 00:58:29.092] Thank you, Bill. [00:58:29.092 – 00:58:29.632] Thank you, Jay. [00:58:29.632 – 00:58:30.332] Appreciate it. [00:58:30.332 – 00:58:32.552] Thank you. [00:58:32.552 – 00:58:33.132] Thank you. [00:58:33.132 – 00:58:34.252] Very good stuff.

[00:58:34.252 – 00:58:34.262] Thank you. [00:58:34.262 – 00:58:34.263] Thank you, all. [00:58:34.263 – 00:58:35.232] Fantastic job. [00:58:35.232 – 00:58:36.292] Thank you very much. [00:58:36.292 – 00:58:39.952] Thank you, Joan, and- Thank you … [00:58:39.952 – 00:58:40.652] and Enda. [00:58:40.652 – 00:58:42.832] Thank you, everyone.

[00:58:42.832 – 00:58:49.592] But I just want to mention some of these flyers again, and then we're gonna go quickly to a Q&A session, which Jim W. is gonna share for us. [00:58:49.592 – 00:58:51.712] Um, so what we have coming up… [00:58:51.712 – 00:58:53.372] There's B- there's Mike, Mike McCaid. [00:58:53.372 – 00:58:54.532] Good to see you, Mike. [00:58:54.532 – 00:58:55.252] Mm-hmm. [00:58:55.252 – 00:59:02.892] Uh, what we have coming up is, um, next week, as I said, we have Jay S. gonna read for us the second part of this, and we have the footnotes with Bill S.. [00:59:02.892 – 00:59:06.392] And just while he's here, Bill C. is gonna come along the following week.

[00:59:06.392 – 00:59:13.492] But I have to say that Bill is gonna come, but he's gonna have Matthew M. with him, and that's gonna be on chapter nine, Hank's Ideas. [00:59:13.492 – 00:59:16.152] So we're looking forward to having Bill back with us and Matthew. [00:59:16.152 – 00:59:23.102] And, uh, tomorrow night in my home group, I wanna mention Penny P., who's with us, but Penny is out of just coming back from the doctor's. [00:59:23.102 – 00:59:24.972] So, uh, Penny, good to have you here. [00:59:24.972 – 00:59:27.152] The Big Book, let's start at the very beginning. [00:59:27.152 – 00:59:31.532] The preface, the forewords, and the dust jackets, and that's gonna be a presentation with Beth D. [00:59:31.532 – 00:59:32.292] tomorrow night.

[00:59:32.292 – 00:59:35.832] And we're gonna try a new, uh, thing after that presentation tomorrow. [00:59:35.832 – 00:59:40.482] We're gonna do a f- an introduction to historical website resources, and that's with Eamon D. [00:59:40.482 – 00:59:43.472] Eamon, do you quickly wanna mention something on that for us? [00:59:43.472 – 00:59:45.392] Can you hear me? [00:59:45.392 – 00:59:49.302] And that's gonna be on www.barefootsworld.org we're gonna be looking into. [00:59:49.302 – 00:59:51.922] Eamon, if you can hear me, but if not, I'll move on quickly. [00:59:51.922 – 00:59:54.562] Yes, it's, it's, it's, it won't set any- Thank you, Eamon …

[00:59:54.562 – 00:59:56.312] it won't set any historians alive. [00:59:56.312 – 01:00:02.312] It's just nor- merely informative for anybody who's not used to looking at, uh, trying to find information. [01:00:02.312 – 01:00:02.592] Okay? [01:00:02.592 – 01:00:03.932] Thank you, Eamon. [01:00:03.932 – 01:00:04.732] Looking forward to that. [01:00:04.732 – 01:00:05.432] Sounds good. [01:00:05.432 – 01:00:08.822] Okay, and then the following week we're gonna have, uh, Dr.

[01:00:08.822 – 01:00:10.832] Bob's early years with, uh, Drew H. [01:00:10.832 – 01:00:14.262] And of course, I've got some finish with the, well, maybe call… [01:00:14.262 – 01:00:22.772] The History Symposium is on tomorrow, and, uh, you can register at historysymposium.org. [01:00:22.772 – 01:00:29.412] And Bill Scheberg is gonna be doing the 5:30 talk up to 6:45, and that's 1:30 AM in the UK. [01:00:29.412 – 01:00:33.132] And that's gonna be titled, Right in the Big Book, the Myths and Misconceptions. [01:00:33.132 – 01:00:35.252] And there's other speakers there you can see. [01:00:35.252 – 01:00:35.672] Tim F.

[01:00:35.672 – 01:00:37.272] is gonna be doing one of recovery speakers. [01:00:37.272 – 01:00:39.932] And we got tributes to R.S. [01:00:39.932 – 01:00:42.232] by John M., and a tribute to Glenn C. [01:00:42.232 – 01:00:43.152] by Jackie B. [01:00:43.152 – 01:00:45.682] And also the moderator of A.A. [01:00:45.682 – 01:00:48.252] History L., Tom R., is gonna be doing a talk. [01:00:48.252 – 01:00:49.472] And Mike F.

[01:00:49.472 – 01:00:50.792] is gonna be doing one as well. [01:00:50.792 – 01:00:52.272] God, it's wow. [01:00:52.272 – 01:00:54.091] That's a lot of… [01:00:54.091 – 01:00:56.832] Oh, the growth and understanding is wonderful. [01:00:56.832 – 01:00:57.332] I love it. [01:00:57.332 – 01:00:59.602] Uh, Bill, uh, the History of the A.A. [01:00:59.602 – 01:01:01.612] Grapevine with a presentation by Beth D.

[01:01:01.612 – 01:01:03.312] with Bob H. we mentioned earlier. [01:01:03.312 – 01:01:08.692] Again, if you want any of this information, please just send me an email, and I'll put my details in the chat. [01:01:08.692 – 01:01:13.061] This reading, uh, group has just started up, uh, Bill W., The First 40 Years. [01:01:13.061 – 01:01:20.592] A reading recovery group is also on Not G., 3:00 PM every Sunday in San Francisco. [01:01:20.592 – 01:01:21.902] Also, the A.A. [01:01:21.902 – 01:01:23.602] Comes of Age group, uh, or A.A. [01:01:23.602 – 01:01:26.712] Comes of Age reading, and that's on every Wednesday at 6:00 PM.

[01:01:26.712 – 01:01:29.212] God, there's so much good stuff, isn't it? [01:01:29.212 – 01:01:35.902] And also Chip of a Book, the history seminar, Saturday, Seven- uh, February 26th, you can see there now. [01:01:35.902 – 01:01:38.472] Okay, we're going back over to Jim W.. [01:01:38.472 – 01:01:40.512] Uh, Jim, do you wanna tell people what they have to do? [01:01:40.512 – 01:01:41.752] Fantastic, guys. [01:01:41.752 – 01:01:42.172] Thank you. [01:01:42.172 – 01:01:43.672] Sure.

[01:01:43.672 – 01:01:44.812] Thank you very much, David. [01:01:44.812 – 01:01:48.832] Thank you, uh, uh, Bill and Jay for the, for the great reading. [01:01:48.832 – 01:01:54.012] Uh, we're gonna start the, uh, Q&A part of this, uh, this meeting. [01:01:54.012 – 01:01:59.372] And, uh, we'll just try and keep it to questions and answers on today's reading. [01:01:59.372 – 01:02:03.052] So, uh, we're gonna start with Kit and George. [01:02:03.052 – 01:02:04.912] Go right ahead. [01:02:04.912 – 01:02:06.872] There you go.

[01:02:06.872 – 01:02:07.522] Okay. [01:02:07.522 – 01:02:07.992] Hi, everybody. [01:02:07.992 – 01:02:10.972] Thank you to Bill, and thank you to Jay for, uh, doing the footnotes. [01:02:10.972 – 01:02:15.112] Um, I have a question if anybody might be able to confirm this or not. [01:02:15.112 – 01:02:25.112] But, uh, Jimmy B., being the agnostic, uh, agnostic that he was, and his buddy, um, uh, Fitz M., which was really pro-pro Christian or [01:02:25.112 – 01:02:35.152] p- pro God, um, I understand that when, um, Jim B., when he passed away, in his will, he asked to be buried next to Fitz M.. [01:02:35.152 – 01:02:37.172] Can anybody confirm that or not?

[01:02:37.172 – 01:02:40.252] Uh, George, it's an interesting question. [01:02:40.252 – 01:02:43.512] I, I don't know if he, if he requested that in his will. [01:02:43.512 – 01:02:44.951] But he came from that area, that… [01:02:44.951 – 01:02:54.992] They, those guys grew up together, and they are, they're buried about, I don't know, 50 feet apart in an Episcopalian, uh, cemetery that goes around a church in, uh, in Mu- in [01:02:54.992 – 01:02:55.432] Maryland. [01:02:55.432 – 01:02:55.712] I don't know. [01:02:55.712 – 01:03:01.552] I've, I've, I've, I know the name of the town, but I can't remember what it is at the m- And, and, and my lady Sarah and I visited at that.

[01:03:01.552 – 01:03:05.802] That, that's a, that's a really cool thing to stand at Fitz's grave, and then walk- Yeah … [01:03:05.802 – 01:03:08.262] around the corner a little bit and there's Jimmy's grave, you know? [01:03:08.262 – 01:03:09.062] It's just like- Great … [01:03:09.062 – 01:03:11.772] and what Jimmy's doing in sacred ground, I have no idea. [01:03:11.772 – 01:03:13.432] Yeah. [01:03:13.432 – 01:03:15.072] I thought that was really interesting stuff. [01:03:15.072 – 01:03:15.252] Yeah.

[01:03:15.252 – 01:03:15.952] Yeah. [01:03:15.952 – 01:03:23.832] And, uh, I gotta mention that, um, Jay and Gail put on a great presentation years ago, uh, when I was, I was past chairman of the National A.A. [01:03:23.832 – 01:03:24.162] Archives- [01:03:24.325 – 01:03:24.716] workshop. [01:03:24.716 – 01:03:29.985] And Jay and, um, Gale did a great yin and yang on what was going on in New York. [01:03:29.985 – 01:03:34.616] And at the same time, then Gale would talk about what was going on in Akron. [01:03:34.616 – 01:03:39.936] And it was really, really a great pres- presentation they put in, put together at the last minute.

[01:03:39.936 – 01:03:40.596] But, uh. [01:03:40.596 – 01:03:42.406] Thank you. [01:03:42.406 – 01:03:42.996] Thanks again, guys. [01:03:42.996 – 01:03:43.936] Thank you very much. [01:03:43.936 – 01:03:47.976] Phil, if you have a question, feel free to, uh, raise your hand. [01:03:47.976 – 01:03:48.916] Uh, there we go. [01:03:48.916 – 01:03:50.796] There's Al in Virginia.

[01:03:50.796 – 01:03:52.056] Al? [01:03:52.056 – 01:03:52.536] Hello. [01:03:52.536 – 01:03:53.486] Hello, everybody. [01:03:53.486 – 01:03:55.656] Thanks again for a great presentation. [01:03:55.656 – 01:04:06.076] I just wanted to, uh, verify that, um, Lois W. said that New York, uh, group did not, uh, [01:04:06.076 – 01:04:08.635] leave the Oxford Group, they got kicked out. [01:04:08.635 – 01:04:11.096] Uh, so that's my question.

[01:04:11.096 – 01:04:21.276] Well, the, the, the, the moment that S. talks about when, when the sermon was [01:04:21.276 – 01:04:26.156] given, what happened was that S. was on a sabbatical for six months. [01:04:26.156 – 01:04:26.756] Right. [01:04:26.756 – 01:04:32.476] And so, uh, and, uh, it was, it wasn't Garrett S.. [01:04:32.476 – 01:04:39.756] I can't remember the name of the, the associate minister that got up and said, "They're having these meetings around, uh, the back of Mur- Mrs. [01:04:39.756 – 01:04:46.276] Murphy's, uh, barn, and they're not maximum." And so, you know, that was it. [01:04:46.276 – 01:04:52.636] You know, now whether that's we quit or you're kicked out, it's, it's, you know, it's the same thing.

[01:04:52.636 – 01:05:02.676] And another thing you have to remember about this, the operating budget for the, um, for [01:05:02.676 – 01:05:07.616] the Calvary M. is running about five grand a month. [01:05:07.616 – 01:05:11.926] It's a tremendous amount of money that's coming out of that congregation. [01:05:11.926 – 01:05:22.136] And so to have these people that they're helping get running, not coming to the organization that was [01:05:22.136 – 01:05:26.816] there providing the resources to save their lives, was offensive. [01:05:26.816 – 01:05:29.996] Yeah. [01:05:29.996 – 01:05:32.156] And, and, Al, I, I agree with Jay.

[01:05:32.156 – 01:05:38.416] I think it may be a matter of, uh, semantics here, but, but I've never heard that Lois said you got kicked out. [01:05:38.416 – 01:05:42.656] So if you got a reference for that someplace, I would love for you to email it to me, okay? [01:05:42.656 – 01:05:43.596] I'd really… [01:05:43.596 – 01:05:43.916] I'd like… [01:05:43.916 – 01:05:44.946] I'd love to see that. [01:05:44.946 – 01:05:45.656] That'd be great. [01:05:45.656 – 01:05:46.216] Thank you.

[01:05:46.216 – 01:05:49.326] Thank you very much. [01:05:49.326 – 01:05:50.805] Next, we have Irene. [01:05:50.805 – 01:05:53.476] Hello, and thank you so much. [01:05:53.476 – 01:05:55.516] I'm an alcoholic, and my name's Irene. [01:05:55.516 – 01:05:57.275] And, uh, thanks so much for the reading. [01:05:57.275 – 01:05:59.816] It was, uh, it was amazing. [01:05:59.816 – 01:06:09.836] And I, I just realized, uh, Bill, that, um, one of the things that confuses me is the Oxford Group is supposed to be so religious and, but they were

[01:06:09.836 – 01:06:12.296] focusing on rich Episcopalians. [01:06:12.296 – 01:06:13.276] I, I… [01:06:13.276 – 01:06:15.636] So I'm sorry, I missed the very first part of the reading. [01:06:15.636 – 01:06:18.656] So what, what was going on with this Oxford Group? [01:06:18.656 – 01:06:20.936] They sound more anti-religious than religious. [01:06:20.936 – 01:06:27.156] Well, Irene, you just had to go right directly to one of the contentious bones of contention between Jay and I. [01:06:27.156 – 01:06:29.236] So I'll let him address that issue.

[01:06:29.236 – 01:06:29.696] Okay. [01:06:29.696 – 01:06:37.896] Now, I have to tell you that I have a very skewed, um, uh, perspective on this. [01:06:37.896 – 01:06:48.076] And the skewed pers- perspective is 15 years of close association with Oxford Group members of Moral Re-Armament, or when I started, [01:06:48.076 – 01:06:50.716] they were calling themselves Normal M. Re-Armament. [01:06:50.716 – 01:06:54.696] And then, um, uh, Initiatives of Change. [01:06:54.696 – 01:07:00.596] I have never known these people to be classicists, number one. [01:07:00.596 – 01:07:06.576] I've never known them to be aggressively, uh, uh, evangelical.

[01:07:06.576 – 01:07:16.616] Um, and, uh, I've sat and broken bread, prayed, meditated with hundreds [01:07:16.616 – 01:07:19.646] of these people over many, many years. [01:07:19.646 – 01:07:30.536] And my Oxford Group me- mentor, um, came into, uh, the Oxford Group maybe [01:07:30.536 – 01:07:31.976] a year after W. did. [01:07:31.976 – 01:07:33.776] So I mean, W- T. [01:07:33.776 – 01:07:35.016] Willard H. was, uh… [01:07:35.016 – 01:07:37.816] And, and he dedicated his entire life to the movement.

[01:07:37.816 – 01:07:47.976] So, um, there are these, uh, there are some interesting commentaries about the Oxford Group [01:07:47.976 – 01:07:52.116] by people that had no personal contact with them. [01:07:52.116 – 01:07:57.456] Now, um, number one, Dr. [01:07:57.456 – 01:07:59.016] Bob was a chicken shit. [01:07:59.016 – 01:08:05.296] He would, uh, and he was afraid of Henrietta S., period. [01:08:05.296 – 01:08:10.496] And he would do anything to avoid conflict with Henrietta. [01:08:10.496 – 01:08:20.756] And, uh, he would change his tune no matter what the situation was to keep from being in, uh, against her.

[01:08:20.756 – 01:08:24.416] He also believed that the Williamses saved his life. [01:08:24.416 – 01:08:34.616] And the Williamses were not particularly aggressive evangelists, although, you know, their entire life had been changed by, uh, [01:08:34.616 – 01:08:36.256] association with the Oxford Group. [01:08:36.256 – 01:08:41.086] So, you know, this, uh, this thing that they're only interested in the rich m- [01:08:41.320 – 01:08:51.460] We're only interested in the, uh, in, uh, this particular, uh, you know, and, and, uh, rich and Episcopalians [01:08:51.460 – 01:08:55.880] is probably, you know, I mean, the Church of England, that's, that's, that's who you're talking about. [01:08:55.880 – 01:09:04.640] So the entire ruling class in the United States basically was Episcopalian for the first 100 years, 150 years of our, of our nation.

[01:09:04.640 – 01:09:09.900] Um, now what do I really think? [01:09:09.900 – 01:09:20.140] Um, I know the care and concern that Frank B. [01:09:20.140 – 01:09:27.580] and the people that he worked with had for the work- working p- person and the alcoholic. [01:09:27.580 – 01:09:37.760] And, and, uh, Frank's whole ministry was actually pretty much founded upon the success that he had with a bootlegger [01:09:37.760 – 01:09:43.300] and the work that he did with the YMCA, uh, at Penn S. University. [01:09:43.300 – 01:09:50.780] Uh, you know, now they, so but they're Christians, and this is a Christian nation at this time. [01:09:50.780 – 01:10:01.380] I mean, you know, it's not like we're, it's, it's, it's not like, uh, what we consider to be rigid evangelism,

[01:10:01.380 – 01:10:05.580] but these people's lives have been changed by a Christian experience. [01:10:05.580 – 01:10:06.560] There's no doubt about it. [01:10:06.560 – 01:10:09.800] Thank you, Jay. [01:10:09.800 – 01:10:12.560] Would you like any r- rebuttal, Bill? [01:10:12.560 – 01:10:14.500] Yeah, well, I'd, I'd like to make a comment. [01:10:14.500 – 01:10:18.100] I'm not gonna get into a rebuttal here, but, uh, you know. [01:10:18.100 – 01:10:28.300] I mean, in the United States, which was, which was what W.'s and everybody else's, uh, experience was, I mean, Sam S. was in fact the head of the Oxford

[01:10:28.300 – 01:10:38.100] Group M., the very active head leader of the Oxford Group Movement in the United States, and he ran a, an Episcopalian church, and most of his network contacts were Episcopalian. [01:10:38.100 – 01:10:44.580] So, so obviously most of the people, there, there was, there was a, a, a basis of a, of Episcopalians going on there. [01:10:44.580 – 01:10:54.680] And in terms of, you know, maybe, maybe I could have stated it a little bit softer, but let's face it, the Oxford Group people were trying to convert, they were trying to change the world, [01:10:54.680 – 01:10:57.040] and they were working with a top-down model. [01:10:57.040 – 01:10:59.460] They weren't working with a bottom-up model. [01:10:59.460 – 01:11:01.640] A- Alcoholics Anonymous is a bottom-up model. [01:11:01.640 – 01:11:01.860] You know?

[01:11:01.860 – 01:11:06.260] We're taking people out of the gutter and trying to sober them up, and they weren't interested in it. [01:11:06.260 – 01:11:08.090] They were interested in a top-down model. [01:11:08.090 – 01:11:10.410] So- Right. [01:11:10.410 – 01:11:14.490] And it's not- Maybe I shouldn't have said they were only interested in rich, powerful people or something. [01:11:14.490 – 01:11:15.210] Yeah. [01:11:15.210 – 01:11:25.020] Well, no, no, no, but the, the interesting thing is, is that what you're talking about, a top-down model, it's, it's, it's fascinating. [01:11:25.020 – 01:11:35.340] If you guys wanna get a real sense for the Oxford Group, go back to Begbie's book on, uh, Broken M. or More,

[01:11:35.340 – 01:11:42.260] um, uh, More T. of from the, uh, uh, oh gosh. [01:11:42.260 – 01:11:52.400] Anyway, the, the second book that he wrote, which is specifically about the Oxford Group, and it's from the days when the Oxford Group was not [01:11:52.400 – 01:11:55.859] well-known, and everybody in it is anonymous. [01:11:55.859 – 01:11:56.600] Frank B. [01:11:56.600 – 01:11:58.040] is called FB. [01:11:58.040 – 01:12:02.320] Uh, S. is called, uh, the Virginian. [01:12:02.320 – 01:12:02.950] Right.

[01:12:02.950 – 01:12:08.320] All of the different personal stories that are in there, and I think there's 30, they're all anonymous. [01:12:08.320 – 01:12:10.980] And, um, yeah, Twice B. Men. [01:12:10.980 – 01:12:12.240] More t- more … [01:12:12.240 – 01:12:12.700] Thanks, Sean. [01:12:12.700 – 01:12:14.540] Yeah, more stories. [01:12:14.540 – 01:12:19.500] There's, there's Twice B. Men, and there's more stories of Twice B. Men, so it's the second volume. [01:12:19.500 – 01:12:21.840] Um, so there's that.

[01:12:21.840 – 01:12:32.460] The second thing is, is that you have to remember that, that when you're in the Young M.'s Christian A., just like, uh, [01:12:32.460 – 01:12:42.640] or for those of you who are a little different B., if you saw the, uh, documentary, or not the documentary, but Costa-Gavras' film, The Battle for Algiers, [01:12:42.640 – 01:12:52.820] it describes precisely how one brings an idea, either revolutionary or religious, to a group. [01:12:52.820 – 01:12:54.520] You go into a neighborhood. [01:12:54.520 – 01:13:04.560] You pick out the people that will have the most influence, and those are the people that you, uh, when you have a small revolutionary or a [01:13:04.560 – 01:13:14.120] small religious group, those are the things that you wanna do to, um, uh, you wanna get those key people. [01:13:14.120 – 01:13:16.400] They called it the key man strategy.

[01:13:16.400 – 01:13:26.480] And at Penn S., B. used that with Blair B., who was the big man on campus, one of the deans, and then Bill P., [01:13:26.480 – 01:13:27.860] the, uh, the bootlegger. [01:13:27.860 – 01:13:29.790] Yep. [01:13:29.790 – 01:13:30.520] Tha- thank you. [01:13:30.520 – 01:13:32.660] Let's, we got lots of questions coming up here. [01:13:32.660 – 01:13:33.800] Thank you both. [01:13:33.800 – 01:13:35.840] Uh, Bill L..

[01:13:35.840 – 01:13:38.480] Yes. [01:13:38.480 – 01:13:42.860] Uh, uh, thank you for, uh, reading today, Bill. [01:13:42.860 – 01:13:53.320] Uh, just two, two questions, one on page 130 there, where you talk about, uh, "As F. A. had written the previous [01:13:53.320 – 01:13:57.880] February, one of the six musts for recovery-" [01:13:58.484 – 01:14:05.204] Could that have been what Bill W. had considered six steps that he took from the Oxford meeting? [01:14:05.204 – 01:14:08.274] No, I, I don't- Where F. came as- … [01:14:08.274 – 01:14:13.224] I, I, I really don't see any kind of direct connection between those two.

[01:14:13.224 – 01:14:15.384] You know, I mean, we've talked about this before, Bill. [01:14:15.384 – 01:14:25.384] There's, there's a, this is a, this is a really Christian spiritual culture we've got going on here between New York and Ohio, and there's all these ideas floating around, you [01:14:25.384 – 01:14:25.604] know? [01:14:25.604 – 01:14:35.744] And, and I just, I think the most important thing about those isn't like, "Oh, Bill got this idea from this, and he got that idea from over there." What I think is more important is that Bill W. [01:14:35.744 – 01:14:40.284] was a supreme pragmatist, and he'd pick up anything that was floating in the air and try it out. [01:14:40.284 – 01:14:42.804] And if it kept people from not drinking, he was all for it. [01:14:42.804 – 01:14:45.984] And, and I think, I think really that's, that's the most…

[01:14:45.984 – 01:14:50.304] That I think that's where our focus needs to be, is like, "What worked?" You know? [01:14:50.304 – 01:14:54.324] This thing came out, he talks about all those things in the Oxford Group that didn't work for him, you know? [01:14:54.324 – 01:14:58.704] It was driving, it was making people drink or k- driving people out of the meetings, so they stopped doing that, you know? [01:14:58.704 – 01:15:03.403] And I think that's, that's, I, just my own perspective. [01:15:03.403 – 01:15:09.304] And just one last comment on the, uh, the, the thing that Jay and I were doing is, uh, Jay, Jay quoted this book. [01:15:09.304 – 01:15:18.504] I've a book I would like people to read if you wanna know what was going on in the Oxford Group in New York City from one man's perspective in 1934, is Vic K.'s I Was a Pagan. [01:15:18.504 – 01:15:19.304] Absolutely.

[01:15:19.304 – 01:15:24.484] And, uh, and I, I think you come away from that book with, uh, more of my perspective than the more… [01:15:24.484 – 01:15:29.244] Okay, but it's, it's a, no, it's a great question. [01:15:29.244 – 01:15:30.004] Okay. [01:15:30.004 – 01:15:30.424] Oh. [01:15:30.424 – 01:15:32.104] Thank, thank, thank you. [01:15:32.104 – 01:15:33.824] Bill, did you have another? [01:15:33.824 – 01:15:36.164] Yeah, just another quick one.

[01:15:36.164 – 01:15:40.064] The footnote on page 144, this Merton M. [01:15:40.064 – 01:15:42.084] It wasn't published. [01:15:42.084 – 01:15:44.744] Uh, can it be read anywhere? [01:15:44.744 – 01:15:45.694] Uh, he was- Uh … [01:15:45.694 – 01:15:50.744] wa- was this specifically about Hank, or he's just writing about early AA, or? [01:15:50.744 – 01:15:52.944] He's writing about AA in New Jersey. [01:15:52.944 – 01:15:54.944] He was a, he was like an original…

[01:15:54.944 – 01:16:04.944] I don't know if he was an official archivist in New York, in, in New Jersey, but, uh, but he, Merton did awesome, awesome on-the-ground research [01:16:04.944 – 01:16:06.533] in, in court records- Mm-hmm … [01:16:06.533 – 01:16:07.124] and, you know. [01:16:07.124 – 01:16:10.384] He was, you know, he was really, really, uh, did good stuff. [01:16:10.384 – 01:16:13.064] I don't, I don't think that's online any place. [01:16:13.064 – 01:16:16.924] I, I've, I got a copy of it from Ernie K., and then I got another copy of it. [01:16:16.924 – 01:16:23.964] It was exactly the same text but a little bit different formatting from John B., who's a, who was an A- AA archivist in, uh, in New Jersey.

[01:16:23.964 – 01:16:25.944] Uh- I know John, yeah … [01:16:25.944 – 01:16:26.184] yeah. [01:16:26.184 – 01:16:26.254] Okay. [01:16:26.254 – 01:16:29.564] So I mean if, if, I guess if you want the thing, send me an email. [01:16:29.564 – 01:16:31.624] I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll get it back to you on… [01:16:31.624 – 01:16:32.864] Okay. [01:16:32.864 – 01:16:33.254] Thank you.

[01:16:33.254 – 01:16:33.564] Thank you, Bill. [01:16:33.564 – 01:16:36.564] And, uh, we'll go now to Bob H.. [01:16:36.564 – 01:16:39.304] Yeah, I just got two statements. [01:16:39.304 – 01:16:44.624] Uh, the associa- uh, the associate minister was named Harris. [01:16:44.624 – 01:16:47.504] And, uh, I- No, it wasn't Irving H.. [01:16:47.504 – 01:16:50.584] It wasn't Irving I thought that's who it was. [01:16:50.584 – 01:16:52.174] Nah, uh, nah, it wasn't Irving.

[01:16:52.174 – 01:16:52.364] Okay. [01:16:52.364 – 01:16:53.464] My, I stand corrected. [01:16:53.464 – 01:16:56.144] Irving was, Irving was a good friend of Bill's. [01:16:56.144 – 01:16:59.104] Nah, that was, it was- Okay … [01:16:59.104 – 01:17:00.104] I think it was Cuyler. [01:17:00.104 – 01:17:03.524] Excuse me, C-U-Y-L-E-R. [01:17:03.524 – 01:17:05.104] John C..

[01:17:05.104 – 01:17:09.144] All right. [01:17:09.144 – 01:17:10.704] And now we'll go to Marsha. [01:17:10.704 – 01:17:13.764] Hello, everyone. [01:17:13.764 – 01:17:16.324] Um, great reading. [01:17:16.324 – 01:17:17.984] Great reading, great chapter. [01:17:17.984 – 01:17:25.584] Um, outside of the blonde makeup expert, I'll put it that way. [01:17:25.584 – 01:17:31.024] A man after my own heart, I would say.

[01:17:31.024 – 01:17:41.124] Outside of him, uh, when would have been the next episodes of having to grapple with [01:17:41.124 – 01:17:48.824] the question of Blacks in AA, or is that outside the purview of your timeframe of this book? [01:17:48.824 – 01:17:52.764] Well, certainly, yeah, it is, it's outside the timeframe of my book. [01:17:52.764 – 01:17:59.804] And, and, but, but Glenn is, Glenn C. done, d- didn't, didn't one of his books address this explicitly, I believe? [01:17:59.804 – 01:18:03.704] I think he- Uh, as Jim's nodding his head and Bob's nodding his head. [01:18:03.704 – 01:18:13.724] So there, there, there's been some good historical research done on that question, uh, about Blacks being admitted to white meetings, and then Blacks setting up their own meetings [01:18:13.724 – 01:18:15.044] because they couldn't do that stuff.

[01:18:15.044 – 01:18:19.614] But, uh, I, Jim, if you know the name of that book, uh, that would be helpful. [01:18:19.614 – 01:18:20.844] Yeah. [01:18:20.844 – 01:18:26.264] It's called, uh, Heroes of Early B., uh, Alcoholics Anonymous by Glenn C.. [01:18:26.264 – 01:18:31.864] Heroes- And I think, I think all Glenn's stuff is available online for download for free. [01:18:31.864 – 01:18:32.244] Yes? [01:18:32.244 – 01:18:32.604] Yes. [01:18:32.604 – 01:18:33.744] Absolutely.

[01:18:33.744 – 01:18:34.984] Yeah. [01:18:34.984 – 01:18:37.574] And also it's masterfully- Thank you … [01:18:37.574 – 01:18:47.624] uh, it's masterfully done in the Bill, uh, Bill W. biograph, uh, documentary that, uh, our friends Kevin H. and Derry, [01:18:47.624 – 01:18:48.784] Dan C. did. [01:18:48.784 – 01:18:50.044] There's a really nice… [01:18:50.044 – 01:18:54.004] It's probably about four minutes of the, of the documentary, which is significant. [01:18:54.004 – 01:18:57.984] Would you repeat the name of that book again, Jim?

[01:18:57.984 – 01:19:00.724] Uh, Black H. of AA. [01:19:00.724 – 01:19:01.664] Okay. [01:19:01.664 – 01:19:02.224] Thank you. [01:19:02.224 – 01:19:03.944] Of early AA. [01:19:03.944 – 01:19:04.454] Okay. [01:19:04.454 – 01:19:06.514] By G. Chesnut. [01:19:06.514 – 01:19:06.944] Thank you.

[01:19:06.944 – 01:19:13.784] Before we go on, uh, Bob, Bob H., did you have, did you have another, uh, comment or question that you wanted to ask? [01:19:13.784 – 01:19:15.273] Yeah, but I'm not sure- [01:19:15.397 – 01:19:16.968] sure, so I better not say nothing. [01:19:16.968 – 01:19:18.528] Oh, okay. [01:19:18.528 – 01:19:19.398] All right. [01:19:19.398 – 01:19:25.788] The, the, the idea of asking a question is not to get into an, a discussion here. [01:19:25.788 – 01:19:30.208] Anyway, Floyd, uh, Floyd, go right ahead.

[01:19:30.208 – 01:19:31.748] Thanks. [01:19:31.748 – 01:19:33.908] I'm Floyd in Colorado. [01:19:33.908 – 01:19:43.988] Uh, I, referring to Barry L., the man who was at the desk, uh, it's on page 140 of your book, Bill, [01:19:43.988 – 01:19:45.668] who, uh, called… [01:19:45.668 – 01:19:47.788] I don't know what you call him. [01:19:47.788 – 01:19:51.188] He was the doorman or whatever for the AA office. [01:19:51.188 – 01:19:53.078] He's a receptionist.

[01:19:53.078 – 01:19:53.768] Receptionist, thank you. [01:19:53.768 – 01:19:59.868] Uh, in 1945, uh, I had Googled the question, who wrote the book Living S.? [01:19:59.868 – 01:20:01.818] And turns out- He did … [01:20:01.818 – 01:20:03.408] it was a man named Barry L. [01:20:03.408 – 01:20:04.448] Barry L.. [01:20:04.448 – 01:20:04.478] Barry L.. [01:20:04.478 – 01:20:05.247] Same guy.

[01:20:05.247 – 01:20:05.948] Same guy. [01:20:05.948 – 01:20:06.058] Same guy. [01:20:06.058 – 01:20:07.628] B-A-R-R-Y Leach, right. [01:20:07.628 – 01:20:09.368] Same guy it looks like. [01:20:09.368 – 01:20:15.168] And, uh, I wanted to just point out what a marvelous, uh, contribution that is. [01:20:15.168 – 01:20:24.408] That, uh, that Living S. book, it's intentionally secular, and, uh, uh, that's, that's what I used when I first got sober. [01:20:24.408 – 01:20:24.898] Yeah.

[01:20:24.898 – 01:20:35.528] And it has, regardless of the secular or s- profane or whatever, sacred or profane, it's a, a incredibly practical, uh, [01:20:35.528 – 01:20:42.028] observations and solutions to, uh, sobriety, particularly early, but at any age really. [01:20:42.028 – 01:20:42.358] It's… [01:20:42.358 – 01:20:44.488] I still use it, and I'm an old drunk. [01:20:44.488 – 01:20:44.978] Thank you. [01:20:44.978 – 01:20:45.098] Thank you. [01:20:45.098 – 01:20:55.188] The other, uh, yeah, the other, uh, uh, thing I wanted to say about the, uh, moral rearmament, that, that was changed from Oxford Group.

[01:20:55.188 – 01:20:59.268] They changed their name in 1938, which is just the time we're talking about here. [01:20:59.268 – 01:21:02.688] And, uh, let me just say what I… [01:21:02.688 – 01:21:13.268] I don't know much about this at all, but the, I, the, the, the, uh, issue apparently was that the, [01:21:13.268 – 01:21:23.428] uh, m- moral rearmament w- did not wanna focus so much on the Christian involvement, but wanted to do just a, a moral whatever teachings in, throughout [01:21:23.428 – 01:21:23.988] the world. [01:21:23.988 – 01:21:26.408] Uh, uh, I don't know if that's… [01:21:26.408 – 01:21:34.348] No, it's, you're, you're- Floyd, Floyd, Floyd, we're, we're, we're way off, we're way off the zone that my book covers and that I know about, but, uh- Yeah …

[01:21:34.348 – 01:21:34.648] thank you. [01:21:34.648 – 01:21:35.088] Okay. [01:21:35.088 – 01:21:35.988] But, but you're right. [01:21:35.988 – 01:21:37.048] Thank you. [01:21:37.048 – 01:21:39.918] And we can talk about it later, but- Yeah … [01:21:39.918 – 01:21:50.268] moral rearmament was the change of the movement from a personal evangelical Christian movement to a social political [01:21:50.268 – 01:21:55.988] target to try and stop specifically the Second W. War.

[01:21:55.988 – 01:21:57.948] Yeah, yeah. [01:21:57.948 – 01:21:58.508] And- Thanks. [01:21:58.508 – 01:21:58.948] That's good. [01:21:58.948 – 01:21:59.338] Yes. [01:21:59.338 – 01:21:59.948] Good distinction. [01:21:59.948 – 01:22:01.348] Thank, thank you. [01:22:01.348 – 01:22:06.828] And- Jim just mentioned that we have, we will stay behind for a meeting after the meeting if people wanna discuss more about other things.

[01:22:06.828 – 01:22:07.408] Thank you. [01:22:07.408 – 01:22:07.868] Yes. [01:22:07.868 – 01:22:08.708] Okay. [01:22:08.708 – 01:22:09.258] Yeah. [01:22:09.258 – 01:22:11.097] And, uh, Sean from Vancouver? [01:22:11.097 – 01:22:12.907] Yeah. [01:22:12.907 – 01:22:13.907] Thank you, Jim.

[01:22:13.907 – 01:22:18.368] Thanks, Bill, and, um, Jay for your reading. [01:22:18.368 – 01:22:27.708] Um, now I've, I've read in numerous A books about going up into the, the room to surrender and whatnot. [01:22:27.708 – 01:22:36.648] And on page 131, uh, what struck me is where it talks about Clarence, uh, Clarence's wife, Dorothy. [01:22:36.648 – 01:22:44.248] Uh, particularly she mentions that, um, after about half an hour or so. [01:22:44.248 – 01:22:49.038] So I've done a lot of step three, kind of on my knees, prayers and stuff. [01:22:49.038 – 01:22:51.728] Never for half an hour or so. [01:22:51.728 – 01:23:01.548] So my question is, uh, have you seen any in your research, any particulars about what they're doing for half an hour or so for this surrender process?

[01:23:01.548 – 01:23:02.648] Any specifics? [01:23:02.648 – 01:23:03.048] Thanks. [01:23:03.048 – 01:23:06.288] Sean, that's, that's good question. [01:23:06.288 – 01:23:07.428] I've never thought about that. [01:23:07.428 – 01:23:10.108] You know, I never noticed the, the, the, the timeline there. [01:23:10.108 – 01:23:17.248] Of course, they, they, they need to do some praying up there, but no, I, I don't, I don't have a clue what the substance of the surrender was. [01:23:17.248 – 01:23:27.268] The, uh, the, the recording, the, uh, the interviews that Bill W. did in '54 in preparation for writing A Comes of Age, or maybe it was '55, uh, there's all these,

[01:23:27.268 – 01:23:27.908] these interviews. [01:23:27.908 – 01:23:35.688] He, he got all the surviving Akron people and he interviewed them, and the, the transcripts are in, uh, in the New York, uh, city archive, GSO archive. [01:23:35.688 – 01:23:38.188] And I read all of those things, but nobody, nobody… [01:23:38.188 – 01:23:45.248] They all said they got on their knees and surrendered, but they didn't do any four-part harmony on what it was, you know, that, that was going on there. [01:23:45.248 – 01:23:49.908] And, uh, yeah, that's- The code word, the code word, Bill, is share. [01:23:49.908 – 01:23:51.288] Okay? [01:23:51.288 – 01:23:58.608] Now, now in the Oxford Group, sharing is you are specific about what the problems are.

[01:23:58.608 – 01:24:08.768] And so with an alcoholic guy, once you get him, you know, slathered up a little bit, you could get maybe five to 10 minutes out of him [01:24:08.768 – 01:24:12.748] easy if they're doing sharing along those lines. [01:24:12.748 – 01:24:22.938] So, so I think what Jay's saying is that you not only got on your knees and surrendered, but you had to do a little confession there about, uh, about maybe- [01:24:22.938 – 01:24:28.408] You were sp- yeah, you were specific about what it was that you were surrendering. [01:24:28.408 – 01:24:30.468] So that'd, that'd, uh… [01:24:30.468 – 01:24:32.318] You know, now I don't know about you, but- [01:24:32.452 – 01:24:34.752] But mine could probably go an easy half hour.

[01:24:34.752 – 01:24:39.372] Oh, and, and by the way, one other thing. [01:24:39.372 – 01:24:49.492] I put, I think, the single most important talk we have in Alcoholics Anonymous in the chat from ex-A speakers, and it's Barry [01:24:49.492 – 01:24:59.772] Lynch talking about this whole, uh, origin of the third tradition and about, uh, the, as he called it, the Veronica L. character [01:24:59.772 – 01:25:00.532] showing up. [01:25:00.532 – 01:25:01.102] Yeah, yeah. [01:25:01.102 – 01:25:04.192] And, uh, um, but it's, it's only, uh… [01:25:04.192 – 01:25:12.092] it was at, uh, the convention in Montreal in 1975, and it's, it's only, it's only 15 minutes.

[01:25:12.092 – 01:25:16.432] And, uh, everybody should give it to everybody they sponsor for sure. [01:25:16.432 – 01:25:17.112] Great talk. [01:25:17.112 – 01:25:18.052] A great talk. [01:25:18.052 – 01:25:18.522] Okay. [01:25:18.522 – 01:25:19.512] Yeah, it is. [01:25:19.512 – 01:25:20.212] It is. [01:25:20.212 – 01:25:21.972] Thank you, uh, Jay.

[01:25:21.972 – 01:25:24.382] And Larry, New York City. [01:25:24.382 – 01:25:26.552] Yes, yes, absolutely. [01:25:26.552 – 01:25:29.692] Good afternoon, my fellow, uh, my peeps. [01:25:29.692 – 01:25:30.392] My name is Larry. [01:25:30.392 – 01:25:31.542] I'm a Grapefruit C. alcoholic. [01:25:31.542 – 01:25:33.152] I don't know if you can see this book. [01:25:33.152 – 01:25:35.692] Uh, I guess you can't.

[01:25:35.692 – 01:25:41.702] And what it is, is basically it's that copy of the, uh, early Black heroes of AA. [01:25:41.702 – 01:25:48.362] A- a- and what happens is in each segment of that, the, the oldest Black AA group was started out in St. [01:25:48.362 – 01:25:51.742] Louis, Missouri about right during, uh, 1945. [01:25:51.742 – 01:25:55.332] And then, you know, you flip to Washington DC with the doctor. [01:25:55.332 – 01:26:05.352] Uh, but in each instance there was always a Caucasian gentleman that, you know, crossed the line and came in, and came in and helped those, and helped African A. set up their [01:26:05.352 – 01:26:07.652] own AA group, so they were never alone. [01:26:07.652 – 01:26:11.152] Even here in New York City, you know, you have the, uh, the St.

[01:26:11.152 – 01:26:11.752] Nicholas group. [01:26:11.752 – 01:26:14.212] It's about 79 years old, maybe 80. [01:26:14.212 – 01:26:16.322] It was started in, like, 1947. [01:26:16.322 – 01:26:18.832] So a day at a time and whatnot is interesting. [01:26:18.832 – 01:26:20.212] But here's the, here, here's the gift. [01:26:20.212 – 01:26:30.412] I, I've been sober 32 years, and when I first came in in 1990 I heard that story about the gentleman, uh, in Midtown with the blonde [01:26:30.412 – 01:26:34.132] hair and, a- a- a- and the, uh, uniqueness.

[01:26:34.132 – 01:26:35.172] He was very unique. [01:26:35.172 – 01:26:40.212] And what it is, is basically I also heard the kind of man that Bill W. was. [01:26:40.212 – 01:26:44.692] He was a very unique individual and a humanitarian because he said, "Is he a drunk? [01:26:44.692 – 01:26:49.092] And does he have a desire to…" You know, once he heard the word that he was a drunk, hey, let him in. [01:26:49.092 – 01:26:50.352] And that's just how it works. [01:26:50.352 – 01:26:51.592] Anyway, thank you, gentlemen. [01:26:51.592 – 01:26:53.392] I've been fully fed this day.

[01:26:53.392 – 01:26:53.832] Thank you. [01:26:53.832 – 01:26:55.372] Thank you, Larry. [01:26:55.372 – 01:26:56.592] And Cathy. [01:26:56.592 – 01:27:00.252] Hi there. [01:27:00.252 – 01:27:01.872] Um, quick question. [01:27:01.872 – 01:27:04.492] You know, there was a, um… [01:27:04.492 – 01:27:09.312] I heard, and I just wanna know the timeline.

[01:27:09.312 – 01:27:10.832] You know, the… [01:27:10.832 – 01:27:18.072] when Bill, and I don't know if it was Ebby, where he went to, I think, it was an Oxford group meeting. [01:27:18.072 – 01:27:24.312] And Bill went up to the front, and to the podium and spoke. [01:27:24.312 – 01:27:26.952] Does anyone have any information on that? [01:27:26.952 – 01:27:29.512] Was that an Oxford group practice? [01:27:29.512 – 01:27:30.192] I don't know. [01:27:30.192 – 01:27:31.512] I just thought.

[01:27:31.512 – 01:27:32.862] That was, that, that was something- If- … [01:27:32.862 – 01:27:35.092] if I remember correctly, and Jay could probably be better. [01:27:35.092 – 01:27:38.532] But, but that was something that happened at the, at the mission, the Calvary M.. [01:27:38.532 – 01:27:42.292] And, uh, they were having a meeting, and Bill was there drunk, and he went up and talked. [01:27:42.292 – 01:27:47.042] And I believe the details on that come from, uh, Bill W.: My F. 40 Years. [01:27:47.042 – 01:27:57.152] I think that's where Bill tells that story in Four P. Harmony about the drinking he did between Ebby's first visit to him and his white light experience in [01:27:57.152 – 01:27:57.852] T. Hospital.

[01:27:57.852 – 01:28:01.352] There's a, there's a bunch of stories, and I think that's one of the stories. [01:28:01.352 – 01:28:05.192] Ebby drags him off and feeds him a plate of beans or something, you know. [01:28:05.192 – 01:28:09.852] But, but I think you'll find the details in, uh, in Bill W.: My F. 40 Years. [01:28:09.852 – 01:28:20.732] Not only that, but we've got a, we've got a letter, uh, from, uh, the guy that was the superintendent at Calvary M. recalling [01:28:20.732 – 01:28:21.912] that whole thing. [01:28:21.912 – 01:28:30.392] And how Bill and Alec defens showed up three times during the course of the day drunk, and they kept saying, "No," the meeting's later at night. [01:28:30.392 – 01:28:38.492] Spoons C. who was working in the K. was the guy he ke- had to keep pushing them out.

[01:28:38.492 – 01:28:44.292] And, uh, and then he talks about Bill getting, uh, getting up to testify. [01:28:44.292 – 01:28:54.511] And how, um, uh, the guy who was leading the meeting was, uh, was a big Polish, uh, house painter, [01:28:54.512 – 01:28:58.522] and how he was just about to punch W. out- … [01:28:58.522 – 01:29:08.802] when they stopped him and said, "No, no, let him talk." So I'll see if I can find that letter and- All [01:29:08.802 – 01:29:08.952] right. [01:29:08.952 – 01:29:09.192] Thank you … [01:29:09.192 – 01:29:09.912] and All right.

[01:29:09.912 – 01:29:11.892] And next, uh, David P.. [01:29:11.892 – 01:29:17.732] Yeah, thanks. [01:29:17.732 – 01:29:27.812] Um, there's a, there's a very brief mention about a, about a Buddhist priest, uh, kind of looking at the budding [01:29:27.812 – 01:29:28.252] AA. [01:29:28.252 – 01:29:36.072] And, and somebody said earlier about how the Oxford group had a, had a solution, but they didn't have any particular problem th- they were attacking. [01:29:36.072 – 01:29:45.192] And, uh, but Bill W. figured out that some of the Oxford group stuff could be actually used to attack the problem of alcoholism, but you had to tweak it. [01:29:45.192 – 01:29:46.972] Uh, I was thinking I've…

[01:29:46.972 – 01:29:49.342] I'm a Christian, but I've read a lot of Buddhism and I- [01:29:50.256 – 01:29:54.695] Got a lot of, a lot of years of sobriety, and I, and I've tried to put all that together. [01:29:54.695 – 01:30:01.256] And, uh, the Buddha talked about, uh, detaching, uh, not, not being attached to stuff. [01:30:01.256 – 01:30:07.655] And, uh, Ignatius L., who started the Jesuits, kind of did the same thing with inordinate attachment. [01:30:07.655 – 01:30:17.696] In fact, uh, I think, uh, Eddie, Eddie D., uh, uh, as Bill's, uh, spiritual guide, got, got Bill to [01:30:17.696 – 01:30:21.635] thinking about this as a spiritual exercise of detaching. [01:30:21.635 – 01:30:31.736] Uh, it just, and it's just interesting to me how in AA we don't, we, we, we look back sometimes to Christianity, but very rarely to other,

[01:30:31.736 – 01:30:34.536] other faith, uh, uh, traditions. [01:30:34.536 – 01:30:39.076] And, and Buddhism is a powerful influence, I think, on what we've, what we've learned. [01:30:39.076 – 01:30:39.886] Or, or it, it… [01:30:39.886 – 01:30:48.236] I won't say it's an influence, but it carries a lot of the same wisdom, uh, that we've been able to extract, uh, to use in our particular problem. [01:30:48.236 – 01:30:49.876] But thanks an awful lot, Bill. [01:30:49.876 – 01:30:51.726] This is, this is, this is a great book. [01:30:51.726 – 01:30:52.116] Thank you.

[01:30:52.116 – 01:30:53.156] I enjoy the reading. [01:30:53.156 – 01:30:54.736] Thanks, David. [01:30:54.736 – 01:31:01.346] And does anyone else have a question on, uh, uh, what we read today, There Is a Solution? [01:31:01.346 – 01:31:06.576] Uh- Well, I'd just like to, I'd just like to follow up on… [01:31:06.576 – 01:31:09.116] Spiritual truth never conflicts. [01:31:09.116 – 01:31:19.116] You can take any spiritual truth and line it up with W.'s philosophy, with his writing, and you [01:31:19.116 – 01:31:27.156] can f- you can claim an influence that, "Oh, see, this is where he got it." And it doesn't matter.

[01:31:27.156 – 01:31:37.176] You, uh, you can have people that are, that are reading the Quran will tell you, "Oh my God, I didn't realize that step six and seven comes from the [01:31:37.176 – 01:31:39.156] Holy Q.." It's true. [01:31:39.156 – 01:31:40.116] You know? [01:31:40.116 – 01:31:44.856] But it, it just was not an influence that, that, uh, that hit. [01:31:44.856 – 01:31:52.116] These guys were not sitting around with comparative religion books trying to paste stuff together so it'd make sense. [01:31:52.116 – 01:31:54.676] Thank you, Jay. [01:31:54.676 – 01:31:56.056] And go to Eddie G.

[01:31:56.056 – 01:31:57.896] Yeah. [01:31:57.896 – 01:31:58.096] Hi. [01:31:58.096 – 01:32:01.816] Uh, thank, thanks very much, uh, Bill. [01:32:01.816 – 01:32:11.816] Um, I, I, I just have a question regarding, um, you me- i- in the book, I was trying to look for it but I couldn't find it, but anyways, it's in regards to, [01:32:11.816 – 01:32:13.776] uh, the Frank A. report. [01:32:13.776 – 01:32:16.456] You said that there were six points. [01:32:16.456 – 01:32:18.056] And, um, in Dr.

[01:32:18.056 – 01:32:23.276] Bob and the Good O.-Timers, on page 131, there's seven points. [01:32:23.276 – 01:32:23.856] Yeah. [01:32:23.856 – 01:32:25.496] There's seven points there, Eddie. [01:32:25.496 – 01:32:34.796] I, I think it was, I think it was Bill L. who was taking six points out of the seven points and, and highlighting them as, as being relevant to things that later happened. [01:32:34.796 – 01:32:35.826] So yeah. [01:32:35.826 – 01:32:36.236] Okay. [01:32:36.236 – 01:32:37.976] In my, in my book there's seven points.

[01:32:37.976 – 01:32:41.036] There, uh, I, it's, it's right there. [01:32:41.036 – 01:32:44.175] I don't know, I don't know what the page number is right off the top of my head, but. [01:32:44.175 – 01:32:45.156] Oh, okay. [01:32:45.156 – 01:32:45.436] All right. [01:32:45.436 – 01:32:45.796] Thanks. [01:32:45.796 – 01:32:47.496] Thanks, Eddie. [01:32:47.496 – 01:32:49.816] And Matt, Matt, Matthew.

[01:32:49.816 – 01:32:54.716] Hi. [01:32:54.716 – 01:32:56.416] Thank, thanks Bill. [01:32:56.416 – 01:33:03.416] Um, thanks Jim and, and Dave, um, for the meeting. [01:33:03.416 – 01:33:08.296] And, um, thanks for getting back to us as well, Bill. [01:33:08.296 – 01:33:14.735] Uh, I often ask you a few questions, and you're very quick at getting back to me, so thank you for doing that. [01:33:14.735 – 01:33:22.156] Um, now Father Ed D., I mean, we talked about this, this Black guy who came in. [01:33:22.156 – 01:33:27.916] And, um, in the traditions, the…

[01:33:27.916 – 01:33:33.296] I was told that he influenced Bill to do tradition-free. [01:33:33.296 – 01:33:38.096] Way, way out of, way out of the scope of my research. [01:33:38.096 – 01:33:41.356] I know nothing about the origin of the traditions or- All right. [01:33:41.356 – 01:33:41.736] It's just- … [01:33:41.736 – 01:33:42.776] who put them together. [01:33:42.776 – 01:33:43.396] Oh, okay. [01:33:43.396 – 01:33:52.756] It's ju- um, it's just Glen C., um, Jo- Father D. is actually in that book.

[01:33:52.756 – 01:34:01.356] Um, you know, he had actually helped get some of the early Black meetings together. [01:34:01.356 – 01:34:11.436] Um, and, uh, where it says our members all, to include all who suffer, apparently, um, [01:34:11.436 – 01:34:12.176] if anyone… [01:34:12.176 – 01:34:17.996] I just wondered if that was true or not, that he, he sort of put that together. [01:34:17.996 – 01:34:18.536] I don't know. [01:34:18.536 – 01:34:19.276] I don't know. [01:34:19.276 – 01:34:19.386] No, no.

[01:34:19.386 – 01:34:22.636] And Marsha P., I've sent you Glen's book, so. [01:34:22.636 – 01:34:24.036] All right. [01:34:24.036 – 01:34:26.416] Thank you, Matthew. [01:34:26.416 – 01:34:27.216] Okay. [01:34:27.216 – 01:34:27.376] Yeah. [01:34:27.376 – 01:34:28.536] All right. [01:34:28.536 – 01:34:29.256] Thank you.

[01:34:29.256 – 01:34:35.496] Anyone else have a question on today's reading, There Is a Solution? [01:34:35.496 – 01:34:40.356] We'll be finishing, uh, we'll be doing the second half of that, uh, next week. [01:34:40.356 – 01:34:41.496] Andrea. [01:34:41.496 – 01:34:43.696] Hi. [01:34:43.696 – 01:34:45.956] I do have something quickly that jumped out at me. [01:34:45.956 – 01:34:52.345] Um, love your comments about this, that at first when, um, Jay said, "You know, Dr. [01:34:52.345 – 01:34:53.836] Bob was kind of a chicken shit.

[01:34:53.836 – 01:34:58.016] He was afraid of Henrietta," I was a little like, "Aw." You know, Dr. [01:34:58.016 – 01:34:58.356] Bob. [01:34:58.356 – 01:35:06.366] But I can see some truth to that in what you read later, what was read later, what's in the book about the Oxford Group being so convinced that- [01:35:06.480 – 01:35:07.740] That, um, keep away… [01:35:07.740 – 01:35:09.360] You know, religion'll do the trick. [01:35:09.360 – 01:35:11.240] You don't need to emphasize the medical. [01:35:11.240 – 01:35:12.860] I'm paraphrasing from your book.

[01:35:12.860 – 01:35:15.880] You don't need to run around and keep just working with drunks. [01:35:15.880 – 01:35:26.150] Um, but the emphasis on the medical, that that really wasn't important, that you just focus on the religious, uh, solution and that'll be enough for a, an alcoholic. [01:35:26.150 – 01:35:29.740] I can't find exactly what page that was on, but we just read it. [01:35:29.740 – 01:35:32.460] And the funny thing is, is like, I… [01:35:32.460 – 01:35:33.820] It occurred to me, well, that Dr. [01:35:33.820 – 01:35:38.699] Bob was in the Oxford G., what, for two years, and he could not stay sober. [01:35:38.699 – 01:35:42.720] So it seems like he would have, like, challenged that, or they would have…

[01:35:42.720 – 01:35:53.220] Or H. or whoever would have noticed it actually didn't work out so well, that everything changed when, when, uh, Bill W. shared, you know, his experience [01:35:53.220 – 01:35:56.220] and, um, and didn't emphasize just the religion. [01:35:56.220 – 01:35:59.000] So, uh, any comments on that? [01:35:59.000 – 01:36:08.120] Do you- Well, you have to remember that Firestone, you know, Firestone's son was sober in the Oxford Group prior to Bob. [01:36:08.120 – 01:36:16.260] You know, this, this whole thing about, you know, the, the archangels getting together and there being, you know, this, the… [01:36:16.260 – 01:36:25.500] Y- y- you know, there were, there were a lot of people who had their drink problem solved in the Oxford Group. [01:36:25.500 – 01:36:30.360] The thing that's different about Alcoholics Anonymous is, is that if you…

[01:36:30.360 – 01:36:37.880] If I have a problem solved, that doesn't seem to me to be abstinence on an all-time basis. [01:36:37.880 – 01:36:41.240] The thing that AA did was it added the sobriety date. [01:36:41.240 – 01:36:51.500] Most of the, uh, you know, be it Rowland or any of those people, uh, Ebby, to judge them by AA standards [01:36:51.500 – 01:37:02.160] is unfair, specious, narrow-minded, because there was no sobriety date involved with the solution [01:37:02.160 – 01:37:03.120] to their problem. [01:37:03.120 – 01:37:05.780] Well, yeah. [01:37:05.780 – 01:37:09.140] I'd also say, yeah, no, I see it a little differently there.

[01:37:09.140 – 01:37:19.220] The, the distinction is in Alcoholics Anonymous is so much about, um, right, the problem is when we're sober, and that we need to be ‑‑ We, we can continue this discussion, [01:37:19.220 – 01:37:22.540] uh, after the meeting if we have any other questions. [01:37:22.540 – 01:37:29.210] Uh, any other questions, uh, for, uh, Bill S. on the reading today? [01:37:29.210 – 01:37:36.160] And then we'll stay afterwards for, uh, any other further discussions off topic. [01:37:36.160 – 01:37:38.780] Anyone else have a question? [01:37:38.780 – 01:37:42.920] No? [01:37:42.920 – 01:37:44.860] David, I'll turn it back to you.

[01:37:44.860 – 01:37:46.040] Thank you. [01:37:46.040 – 01:37:47.320] Thank you, everyone. [01:37:47.320 – 01:37:48.760] I'll just mention what we have coming up. [01:37:48.760 – 01:37:52.300] Um, next week, as I said, we have, um, the roles are gonna be reversed. [01:37:52.300 – 01:37:57.200] We have Jay going to do the reading for us, and Bill S. is gonna be doing the footnotes. [01:37:57.200 – 01:38:06.800] Okay, I just wanna bring you back to, this meeting here, Knock On, I've just been informed that, uh, that's no longer going, and it's Bill's My F. 40 Years. [01:38:06.800 – 01:38:10.900] This one is the one in place of that, just for your information purposes.

[01:38:10.900 – 01:38:12.220] And here we go. [01:38:12.220 – 01:38:13.280] Finishing on this one. [01:38:13.280 – 01:38:16.540] This is tomorrow. [01:38:16.540 – 01:38:22.660] You have Bill S. gonna be talking at AA History S.. [01:38:22.660 – 01:38:24.300] Scholarships are available. [01:38:24.300 – 01:38:28.580] Uh, registration there if you wanna get to aahistory, historysymposium.org. [01:38:28.580 – 01:38:33.900] And Bill is gonna be our Bill, Bill S. is gonna be talking on Writing the Big Book: Myths and Misconceptions.

[01:38:33.900 – 01:38:37.300] There's also lots of other great speakers at that as well. [01:38:37.300 – 01:38:40.260] But we love Bill S. here. [01:38:40.260 – 01:38:42.220] And we love everyone, but we love Bill S. especially. [01:38:42.220 – 01:38:44.380] We're gonna go back and have a bit by… [01:38:44.380 – 01:38:45.900] We're gonna go back to Bill S.. [01:38:45.900 – 01:38:47.320] Jay, lovely to have you here. [01:38:47.320 – 01:38:48.340] We're gonna stay around.

[01:38:48.340 – 01:38:50.520] Jay'll be here if people wanna get into a discussion with Jay. [01:38:50.520 – 01:38:51.440] He loves a good discussion. [01:38:51.440 – 01:38:57.430] We're gonna go back to Bill S., and we're gonna close with a prayer or a thought or a reflection of your choice, Bill S.. [01:38:57.430 – 01:38:59.009] Great always to have you here, Bill S.. [01:38:59.009 – 01:39:01.000] Thank you, David. [01:39:01.000 – 01:39:11.080] And, uh, as David and most of the regulars know, I, I, I always close AA meetings either out loud or in my head with the evening [01:39:11.080 – 01:39:12.460] gatha Buddhist prayer.

[01:39:12.460 – 01:39:22.700] So, uh, David P., a nod to you, but most especially you gotta blame Jay S. for this, who dragged me to a meditation meeting that, against my [01:39:22.700 – 01:39:28.040] will, on February 14th, 2008, and I've been meditating twice a day ever since. [01:39:28.040 – 01:39:31.180] So you blame him for all this Buddhist stuff in my life. [01:39:31.180 – 01:39:38.900] So we're gonna have a moment of silence followed by the evening gatha or a silent prayer of your choice to end your meeting. [01:39:38.900 – 01:39:46.880] Let me respectfully remind you, life and death are of supreme importance. [01:39:46.880 – 01:39:51.520] Time swiftly passes by, and opportunity is lost. [01:39:51.520 – 01:39:54.440] Each of us should strive to awaken.

[01:39:54.440 – 01:39:55.020] Awaken. [01:39:55.020 – 01:39:56.300] Take heed. [01:39:56.300 – 01:39:59.180] This night your days are diminished by one. [01:39:59.180 – 01:40:01.160] Do not squander your life. [01:40:01.160 – 01:40:04.640] Thank you, Bill. [01:40:04.640 – 01:40:05.820] Thank you, Bill. [01:40:05.820 – 01:40:07.000] Thank you, Jay.

[01:40:07.000 – 01:40:07.360] Thank you, David. [01:40:07.360 – 01:40:08.440] Thank you. [01:40:08.440 – 01:40:09.580] I gotta run. [01:40:09.580 – 01:40:11.060] I'm running late here. [01:40:11.060 – 01:40:11.800] See you, Bill. [01:40:11.800 – 01:40:12.310] See you, Bill. [01:40:12.310 – 01:40:12.780] Jay.

[01:40:12.780 – 01:40:14.160] Thank you, Bill. [01:40:14.160 – 01:40:14.210] Thank you, Bill. [01:40:14.210 – 01:40:17.440] Bill, unless you're doing something now. [01:40:17.440 – 01:40:17.630] David, I'm doing a thing. [01:40:17.630 – 01:40:18.480] I, uh- I guess he's gone. [01:40:18.480 – 01:40:20.200] Bill is gone. [01:40:20.200 – 01:40:23.369] Yeah, I'm gonna stop this recording, and I'm gonna record the next section for if people-