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[0:00 – 0:25] Well, good morning. It's good to see you. Good morning. Just had a great meeting with my buddy back here f- just, uh, before the meeting. I don't know if he warmed up, if he got me warmed up or drained. We'll find out. He, uh… But it's good to see everybody. And, uh, y- I, out on a Saturday morning, just sort of taking a look at how we can get a better hold on what we're doing and be helpful to the people that are behind us.
[0:25 – 1:00] That's, that's really the way I see what we're doing here today, and anything I can contribute to that will be mighty fine. Uh, my name is Tom. I'm probably the only one in captivity. The, uh, nobody ever pronou- I'm the only one I know that pronounces the name right. They get the Tom right, but that's, th- that's it and that's it. Uh, and I'm an alcoholic, for real. A member of the Primary Purpose group of Alcoholics Anonymous. That's not just our name, that's our job description. That's what we're about. Our primary purpose is to carry the message to alcoholics still suffers.
[1:00 – 1:38] I'm a member of that group. Good card-totin' member. I've been there since day one. Plan to stay there till the, till the bitter end. And, uh, I walked into my first meeting on the 2nd of February of 1957, and, uh, I've never felt more out of place anywhere in my life than I did in Alcoholics Anonymous. I'm 24 years old, and I thought, "I'm no alcoholic. You know, I'm in here with all these drum bums." And, uh, I didn't bit more believe I was an alcoholic than man in the moon. Now, a lot of other people believed I was. A lot of people.
[1:38 – 2:34] You know, judges, employers, uh, everybody I met believed it, but not me. You know, that, uh, that was a whole totally foreign word to me and not one that I, that I, uh, was overly, overly overjoyed with. The, uh… I, I'm gonna tell you just a little bit of, of, of my experience. I'll, I'll tell you all of it you want to hear, but, uh, but we'll… And then try to get into this thing of, uh, of, of talking about w- well, our primary purpose, just like our group. Our primary purpose in my group is to carry the message to the alcoholic still suffers. And not just have good meetings, but to carry the message. Good meetings is one of the ways we do it, but it's only one of many, and that's what I hope we get into here today, some, is how do we pass this on to the folk behind us, you know? And what can we do to, to do that better and more effectively is, um, the kind of stuff I'd like to sort of dig at with you, and, uh, not at you, but with you.
[2:34 – 3:09] The, uh… When I walked in that meeting, I really didn't believe I was an alcoholic. I thought I was too young. Alcoholism had just surfaced as, uh, being recognized as an illness. You know, the Medical Society didn't declare it an illness, but they kind of nodded toward it as being like an illness, and it started to open the doors, you know, it started to open the doors to, uh, a lot of things. And, uh, and, and, and, and, and so that was about the era I came in. Treatment didn't exist back then. It, it, it… Well, they did, but they didn't call it treatment.
[3:09 – 3:59] They, they called it sobering up places or a place you could go and buy a little bit of booze to get over the shakes. And, uh, those were interesting days back then. I, I, I did a lot of, of, uh, work with alcoholics, uh, uh, during that period, and those were the days, the old days of 12-step calls. We were just talking about the, the power of the 12-step call. You know, when one alcoholic reached out to another one, it always, nearly always in a rat hole, you know, that, that when you would, when you go into that rat hole and, and pull them out, it created a loyalty second to none. You wouldn't hesitate to do that for the next guy. And it bu- really built this powerful bond in AA. And, uh, a powerful bond that, um…
[3:59 – 4:48] Yeah, over time, we've, we… It's changed faces, you know, and it's taken different kind of, kind of looks. And, uh, yeah, back then, the, uh, uh, there was no such thing as treatment. The, uh, we had, in my county in North Carolina, we had one doctor who, uh, we found him, who would… You could take an alcoholic to… It's just like going to a bootlegger. You take an alcoholic to his house, to the kitchen door, not front door, to the kitchen door and knock. And see, if somebody lets you in, you go into the kitchen, and the doc would come out of his other room and shoot the drunk in the rump and give him a prescription for something. And, uh, man, I was grateful for that boy.
[4:48 – 5:27] I was grateful because it sure beat wrestling drunks. 'Cause they get peaceful after he shot them in the rump. But, but that was it, you know, and so I was grateful for it. So that's the era that I come from. And, uh, that always stays with you as the important kind of thing about what is it that carries- the message here. And, uh, those were, those were, uh, the, th- they were good days and, uh, they were horrible days in some ways. You know, we could get a dr- I held an alcoholic in my arm on a 12 step call, watched him die. Nothing to do with him. What do you do?
[5:27 – 5:58] And there's no place to go. You, if you take him to the hospital, put us both in jail. And so it's a different era, and I wouldn't wanna go back to it by any means, but it was a good learning experience. And it bred in me certain loyalties that I have, you know, to, to this day, naturally. The… I hope I'm not screwing up this recorder thing by leaning on it. You know? You're… Okay, good. If y'all happy, I am, you know, because you, you …
[5:58 – 6:49] Because I'm gonna get on the plane tomorrow. So, so e- they, what, a- a- and, and what I'd like to do, guys, is just make this useful time and, uh, you know, I'm not here to deliver a sermon. I'm just here to, to share experience, one alcoholic to another. And, um, anything that we can do together, uh, just to, to, to dialogue, just to communicate about ways we can be more effective in what we're doing is, is the kind of thing I'd like to, like to do. So please feel free to join in, not with me, but just, you know, in between, you know? Join in and, and, uh, and, and, and make me get at the kind of stuff that you would really like to, to, to hear about, talk about. Uh, and I would, and I would, uh, I would really like that because it's pretty productive that way. So enough introduction.
[6:49 – 7:46] I've, I told you about who I was and how I got started. And, uh, and yet, just an example of, of pass it on, you know, that I should have known if I come to California that I'm just a little north of Hollywood, and it's, uh, one of the few times that I've been given a script. So, so, so brace yourself and I've gotta, I gotta put on my dancing shoes and, you know, get into the script here. Yes. I get fired. Boy, wouldn't that be something, get fired from Alcoholics Anonymous? Geez, I can't even imagine the thought of it. The, uh… Anyway, the, uh, the pass it on thing, it's, it's, it's, it's really what our primary purpose is, is to carry the
[7:46 – 8:30] message on to the alcoholic still sufferers. And the, uh… Uh, to just, to just give you a little bit of a, of a little, uh, saga of the good old days. When, uh, well, I think, uh, several of you are aware, I started, it didn't make much difference, but I went to my first meeting in a maximum custody penitentiary, and I wasn't visiting. I, I was visiting, but it was a long stay. A lot of a lot longer than I intended. And, um, and I'd, I had done, you know, what many alcoholics do, unfortunately. I was driving blind drunk down the street and caused the death of two young people trying to cross the street. So mine was not a, you know, John Dillinger type of criminal history.
[8:30 – 9:06] It was just an alcoholic history, unfortunately. And so when I went in, I went into a… Thank God I went into a good AA group. I didn't go into a meeting. I went into a good solid AA group, well formed, a four, four, a, a three legacy group. And even though it was in a max… Maybe because it was in a maximum custody pen- penitentiary, it was as, as strong a group as I've ever seen. And, and I'm grateful that I went into something like that and not just some chat room where we're just fat mouthing about stuff. That it really was a purposeful kind of a deal. You know, I went in the group, felt totally out of place.
[9:06 – 10:05] I know I said I hadn't been there very long, and a guy came up to me one day, and he, he said, "How old are you, son?" I said, "Well, 24, sir." And he said, uh, "My God, do you realize that if you do this thing, you could have as much as 50 years of sobriety?" And when he said that, his eyes rolled back in his head, you know, he was just going into rapture. And, uh, and and while he was in rapture, I was thinking to myself, "My God, what if it works?" And here I am. So he was right, but that was scary. And I didn't have any idea what sobriety meant. I knew what not drinking meant, misery. And so 50 years of misery didn't sound that appealing. But that was a group that, uh, that did a good job, and, you know, part of the ways of passing on was getting people involved in stuff that, uh…
[10:05 – 10:38] I, I did feel totally out of place in there. And, uh, one day I was in a meeting and, uh, the guy that chaired the meeting said, "Tom, how about helping us with these chairs?" And I did. And I'd never had any- training in it, but I was pretty good. Yeah, it's, uh, got chairs in a row. And, uh, I've been doing chairs for 55 years a- and I'm still good at it, you know? You probably want me to do it today. I got… But, uh, that's how I got introduced.
[10:38 – 11:12] That part of the way of passing it on is to let somebody else have a piece of the action, and that's what they did. You know, th- they, they didn't need to pick up all the chairs. They've been doing it. I hadn't been doing it. And that was one of the ways that I got the ice broken and started to feel like I'm part of the team, I'm part of the da- the deal. They had a newcomer pr- program, but, uh, and it, it wasn't anything fancy or anything. By the way, since we're going to on Pass It On, I didn't even look at the Pass It On book. I read it, but it's been so long ago, I don't even remember. And so I didn't look at it. The- I was gonna go from my history.
[11:12 – 12:03] The, um, they had… But they had a newcomer group, and it was just some young, young, uh, young members that, uh, were talking about the steps, the heart of the program. And, um, I've never… I didn't think it was gonna be of anything of, of real, real major value or anything like that. But a young fella, it's… talked about the, uh, the, the, the steps and he said, said, "There's one thing that you can go to the bank on, that if you'll, if you'll do these steps the way they're laid out, when you get through, you'll be a free man." Uh, don't mean you're gonna leave here. You'll be a free man. And, uh, and I thought, "Man, this guy dreaming." You know, that… And, uh, but you know, the guy was 100% right.
[12:03 – 12:51] You know, that was a, a, a, a maximum custody penitentiary is, is not Disneyland. I mean, it, it sometimes looks like Disneyland, but it, it, it isn't by any means. Just a place, you know, where it's just c- constant tension and, and anger and, and, and stuff, you know, that's there. But I became a free man in that environment in every sense of the word except physically. I was a free man. And for the first time in my life, I became a citizen for the first time in my life. A lousy community, but I was a good citizen. You know, I was, I was a guy that made that joint just a little bit better. And that's what that young fella told me, and if it'll do that in that kind of environment, my God, what will it do in San Francisco? The, uh, so, to, to…
[12:51 – 13:34] y- so the point was that that was part of the Pass It On. One was a program, one was getting into the action, getting physically involved. Yet when I get a newcomer in our group, I don't get him in a corner and explain to him about, you know, how to do a fourth step, and how to do an inventory, and how to be nice to your sponsor. I get him over there and give him a broom, you know, or a chair, just like they did me. I like to get them physically involved. And, uh, nothing gives you a better sense of belonging than being part of what's going on. If you don't believe it, help us do these chairs when we get through here. I went into the group one night and, uh, you know, the, the coffee pot was dirty. Well, I mean, what do you do with a dirty coffee pot? You wash the sucker.
[13:34 – 14:17] So I went over there and I started washing, and a, a young woman came in. She said, "Why are you washing that pot?" I said, "My God, girl, this thing was dirty." And she said, "That's my job." I said, "Well, you're gonna have to be a little faster if you go…" But, but that was my introduction to her. You gotta get in here, girl. So that whole thing of, you know, of what makes, makes you get into the program, I don't think it's so much just sitting down and studying the book. There's nothing wrong with that. That's a good thing. But I think you gotta get into the action. You gotta get in so you feel like you're part of the team, like you're in there with people that are like me.
[14:17 – 14:46] You don't learn that by just getting into isolation. Now, I take people through the book. Yeah, I do it, uh, many, many times. Yeah, I put great value in that. But that's not the way I want to introduce somebody. You know, I, I don't want to get them in the book. I want to get them into the action so they start feeling the energy, they start feeling the vibes, and see what being a member of AA is about. And then you got a little something to hang on to. So that, that's one way, one of the ways that I like to, to go about it. And, uh, so I learned that.
[14:46 – 15:28] And then when, uh, when I g- got through up there, then it came back to, to… I, I didn't volunteer to go back to North Carolina. Yeah, I'd become a real slick Yankee and, uh- And going to North Carolina just seemed like a demotion. But, but not over where I was, right? Except in Santiago went and, uh, and got immediately… No, I got active before I ever got there. You know, I wrote a letter to the, um, group. I, I don't know where I got it, but yeah, I think I st- I'm not a thief, but I think I might have stolen a world directory. But, 'cause they didn't have them laying around anywhere, and if they did, it's, it got stolen. I said I did happen to get one, one by accident.
[15:28 – 16:04] But the, uh … And so I looked up in my hometown, and there were two groups listed. And so I said, "Well, okay." So I looked at my sponsor. I had a sponsor, uh, uh, but I said… He told me, he said, "Get in contact with those people down there." So I k- I got naturally the one with the biggest membership, 'cause it had to be the best group, and wrote them, and that was in 1958, I believe. It's somewhere right in there, thereabouts. And, uh, and I hadn't got the answer yet. Uh, the, uh I know the mail's slow, but it ain't that slow. I mean, my God.
[16:04 – 16:38] Yeah. And so no answer. And so, you know what my conclusion was. I, "Yeah, that's what the AA thing is. You know, they don't want characters like me in that thing." Told my sp- told my sponsor that, and he said, uh, "Now you gotta realize," it's what sponsors are for. "You gotta realize that everything flies a flag. It's not AA. I mean, you got some things flying the flag that can't even spell AA. You know, and, uh, so you gotta realize that you got, you, you got all kinds of things out there that, that some of them quit being, you know, whatever." And he said, "Write
[16:38 – 17:11] again." So I wrote to the other one, smaller group. Got an answer this time, quicker it seemed than the, the, than the mail could be delivered. And, uh, the guy that wrote it became my second sponsor, and he, uh, and he basically said, uh, "Nice letter." I still got it. Excuse me. I'm, I'm, I'm barking like… I got a West Coast cough is what that is. The, uh… Now you ought to leave. I'm not gonna cough on you. He got…
[17:11 – 17:35] But he, and he basically just answered in the spirit of, could have been better. And he said, uh, told me about his group, told me about stuff they did. Eating meetings. That sounded good. That we have eating meetings about once a quarter. Everybody cooks up something, kills something, cook. Oh, man, I thought you were leaving. You're helping me. Frank, I do have hope for you, boy. I got…
[17:35 – 18:09] That's great. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but it was great. He, he, he told me about the group. That was a nice thing to do, eh? I say, "Here's what, here's what we t- what we do." And then he, then he put a line in there that said, "We want you and we need you." Well, what a great message, eh? Not, "We'll tolerate you." They, they did need me, too. I didn't know how much. They needed somebody, and I was the guy that showed up, 'cause that AA was just barely existing in that town.
[18:09 – 18:59] I mean, just barely. And when I hit the street, it's, I learned something about passing it on and about how you get something going. So I went to, went to, got into a group, and, uh, started to get active. And, uh, you know, back then in those days, 12-step, 12-step calls, you know, where you go out and actively work with a drunk, were the order of the day. You know, I had, I've had three in the last, I, I don't know, three or four years. I've had three 12-step calls. I've had six in one day back in those days because that was the heyday of 12-step calls. It's all it was. There wasn't anything else to do. And, uh, so that, that was part of the way that pass it on became a real fact of life for me, was going out and calling on other, other alcoholics.
[18:59 – 19:46] And the amazing, you know, and I was young back then. Bless you. The, uh, e- every, every time I'd go on a 12-step call, I would spend about half the time convincing them that I was an alcoholic, and they'd always say, "Oh, man. No, no, you're too young. You couldn't be an alcoholic." I'd say, "You ought to watch me sometime." But, but, but they always, they always got the message. And, uh, but it was a, it was a marvelous experience. A marvelous experience. And there, there's, there's something that happened with 12-step calls that, uh, I, I miss them today bec- because back then, you, practically every member came into the fellowship as a result of a 12-step call, and that created a bond of loyalty that was almost unbreakable.
[19:46 – 20:32] You wouldn't hesitate to do it for the next person. And it created something, just like we were talking about. It created a real strong connection between members and between groups. And you would, you'd see that loyalty in the members, and you'd see it in the groups. You know, if a new group started, the other groups would, would, would peel in and sort of help it get going. You know, it was a real solid kind of a thing that was a great way of passing it on back in those days. We didn't have a lot of electronic stuff. I mean, they had electronic, but it wasn't the kind that was gonna do what we wanted to get done. And, and so it was a, it was a great, a great kind of a year. The, uh, e- even though it was rough in, in many, many ways, I wouldn't want to go back to those good old days.
[20:32 – 21:17] But they had some real good values to them. And, uh, yeah, one of the ways we got going in that town, I, I was on a 12-step call one night- And, uh, I had a guy that was from the sort of ritzy part of town. He, um, I knew the address. And in, in that part of the world, you either worked in a cotton mill or you was a, the owner of a cotton mill. And the part of town that he was from made him one of the owners or managers of it. So I knew, I said, "I got a, I got a, a, a white collar guy here. I, I don't know what I'm gonna do with him." But I grabbed him, and we went out. And I always made it a rule that when I was on a 12-step call, I carried… Back then, we didn't have where to take people, so I carried booze all the time.
[21:17 – 22:01] And, uh, not for me, for them. In case they get the monkeys, I guarantee you I'd s- I'd wet them down in a minute. And, uh, so they, uh, so I had this guy out, and I didn't have any booze. And then, uh, and he wanted to drink bad then. So normally, the guys from that level in the, in the town, when they made a 12- a 12-step call for help, it meant they wanted to get away from their wife so they could get a drink. And, and he was of that kind. And so he, he started badgering me that he had to have a drink. And finally, about 3:00 in the morning, I gave up, and I said, "All right. Tell me where your favorite bootlegger is." Well, he… I thought I knew every one of them in the county, but he, he named one I'd never heard of.
[22:01 – 22:44] And so we went over there, and, uh, what a bad looking place. So went in, several cars there. Went in, and I swear to God, it looked like an opium den in there or something. I mean, there's just drunks laying everywhere, I mean, all over the floor. And, uh, we, we go in, and, uh, and he goes over and buys a bottle of something. I don't know what it was. I've drunk a lot of stuff, but I, I've never drunk any of that. That was the worst looking stuff I'd ever seen, and he paid for it. And about the time he got the booze, they raided the joint. I mean, they didn't normally r- They, bootlegging was a big business in that county, and a prosperous business.
[22:44 – 23:31] And, and, uh, but they raided it, you know. And here come police cars and, good God, I mean, from everywhere. And they came storm trooping in, dragging drunks out. And this one policeman kept looking at me over at… I, I'm looking like a young Ivy League student standing over there against the wall. And he kept looking at me. Fi- finally, he couldn't stand it anymore. He came over, he said, "Mister, what are you doing here?" And, and I said, "I'd tell you, but you won't believe it." And he said, "Well, try me." And so I told him what I was doing, and he said, "You're right. I don't believe that." I said, "Well, that's what I'm doing." And, and he gave me the drunk with
[23:31 – 24:01] that rot gut stuff he'd bought. I mean, he gave me both of them. And from then on, he gave me hell. I fucking… I, I think what he did was write my name on the wall in the jail. If you got an idiot here and don't know what to do with him, call this guy. He goes… I, I had more 12-step calls than you could imagine. And it grew in that town. Oh, I don't know what exponentially means, but it means a lot of them.
[24:01 – 24:41] It w- it grew. It grew. And, uh, but now you talk about passing it on, that's one way. Now, I, I don't know if you can, if you can re- rejuvenate those good old days, or you m- probably wouldn't want to. But it's a, it's one way that does it, you know, that, that thing of actively reaching out, finding out, and, you know, calling on drunks where they are. You know, bottom doesn't have to be a jail. It can be a lot of places, a lot of places. And so that's the value of a 12-step call, is reaching somebody w- when they're at the point where they think nobody knows or cares, you know? And then one of us walks in.
[24:41 – 25:18] That's, that's passing it on, very, very real. And it's as old as AA itself. You know, that, uh, that's the way it happened with, with Bill and when, when, when Ebby walked in and harangued him and all this kind of stuff. It all started with that, and it still exists with that to this day. And, uh, so, so, so passing it on, you know, is, is, you know, it certainly… That personal touch is so valuable. You know, today, we get an awful lot of people who, who come into AA by various means. You know, that, I mean, all kinds of means. You know this as well as I do. You're in a big city.
[25:18 – 25:49] I live in, in Mayberry. We don't, we don't have, uh, we don't have a whole lot of stuff that, uh… Anyway, I won't get into that. These… I mean, you guys have the best transportation system in the United States. Tell you that in San Francisco, something else. I've ridden everything that'll roll in this town, and, and it is first class. I like… I go home and get mad. But, uh, the, uh, but that, uh, that, that thing, that hadn't changed.
[25:49 – 26:33] The, the, the only thing that's changed is the way the, the, the way the ball rolls. And, and today we get people from a lot of different places. You know, you know, most of us do outreach stuff in our groups. You know, now, my group does. When we started our group, we, uh, we… I took a g- a group of people through the book. You know, the reason I was take- took that particular bunch through, I don't know if, if, if you're at a point where you've, you've started to do it. I got really concerned with the failure rate in AA. It looked to me like we had more people leaving than coming in, and I, and that is dis- dis- distressing to me. You know, if that's what we've got, a program that distracts people rather than attracting, you know, I wanna do something about that if I can.
[26:33 – 27:26] Now, I'm one guy, but by golly, I'm one. And, uh, so I, I kept thinking about what can I do? And so I talked with some buddies and all that kind of thing, and got some ideas. And, and, uh, the, the… I'd taken people through the book a lot of time, but it was usually laborious, you know, and I'd just beat them over the head with a book mostly. And, uh, so I, I talked with a guy one day and he told me what he did, and it made sense, and I said, "Shoot, I'm gonna try that." I really was tired of seeing that revolving door, and I wanted to see if I could just make a dent, dent in it, if nothing else. So I just got the word out to, to folks around town, and you, you can grab a crowd. All you gotta do is say, "We're gonna have free coffee, and, uh, and, uh, c- come on in, and, uh, we'll accept you no matter how ugly you are. Come on in." And, uh, so we got a, a gang of people, and made the condition that, uh, if you're gonna come in, come in to stay.
[27:26 – 27:45] You know, don't just visit and, and, and come in and out. No, either come in to stay or don't. You know, one or the other. Don't make a difference. But if you… If you come in, be on time, and stay here, and then, uh, uh, uh, make the commitment. Otherwise, you're wasting your time. You know? So don't bother with it. And so we, we went through it.
[27:45 – 28:24] And, uh, and, you know, all I did was read a book. It was nothing magical. Uh, I cheated a little bit, you know, 'cause I was the leader and, uh, I drove 75 miles to and from work. And so I, I… Back then we, we had tape instead of cassettes, and I had, had tapes, and I got the book on tape. And, and so I would… I knew what I was gonna cover that night, and I would just play it over and over till I knew every word and they thought I was a genius. That… But I'd play it over because I knew what the point was in that, you know? And, uh, so I wanted to be able to convey that.
[28:24 – 28:45] And, and then… And so we'd always, you know, the, the leader, the leader does… The leader is the reader. So I'd, I'd do the reading. And then the question was not, what do you think? It was, do you identify or relate? Identify means you've done it. Relate means you would have if you'd have thought of it. You know what? And so, so we didn't want opinions.
[28:45 – 29:11] What we wanted to do was identification. You want to identify with what this is about. And we got through with it. We, we started with 16 people and ended with 16 people. And, um, it, uh, it was tremendously effective. Among the most effective things I've ever done in the program. And we got through. Folk were… This all has to do with, with passing it on. I hope you, you, you're hanging on to that.
[29:11 – 29:44] That is the topic. And, uh, so when we got through, uh, I started getting people knocking on my door, you know, and, and, uh, saying, "We need to start a group." I said, "Fine, you got my blessing. Go do it. And you're ready. You're ready, Matt. Do it." And, uh, to a, to a person, they all said… And remember, you got me… Says, "He's gonna give me those britches when he gets through with them." I tell you, that is, that is my kind of dud right there. And he gonna give it up.
[29:44 – 30:19] Oh, yeah, we're all gonna jump on you. Yeah. When they started knocking on my door saying, "We wanna start a group," I said, "Well, go ahead and go for it. And, Matt, you can do it." You know? Said, "No, no, you, you got us in this mess. We want you to go with us." And I said, "Good guy, I'm the…" I was the founder of the group I was in, and I was… I can't just desert the ship. I mean, my God, I can't do that. But they wouldn't yield. And then finally I was like, that group was 35 years old that I was in, they wouldn't even know I was gone.
[30:19 – 30:48] I mean, most of them so senile they'd say- … "Who's that guy?" You know? So I knew it wouldn't hurt anything. And so we went over it. And what I did with that one, I'd never done one quite this way, but this was a group of people who were hungry to do something. So we met… Didn't have a meeting. No praying, no reading, nothing. Just, just we had to get together. These are some people who were looking for something.
[30:48 – 31:28] I didn't want to be giving them something. I wanted them to do what they're doing, which was hunting a, a thing for… What they were looking for. So we, we met and, and, uh, just howdy do was all it was. And I decided to do- A, a brainstorming thing. I, I, I don't know if that's something that's, that's, uh, that, that you do or are familiar. But just brainstorming just means that like if we were gonna do it here, we'd have, uh, Kent's white paper he calls it. If you, if you… The question was: If we start a group, what is a, a condition or a quality that you, or component, that you would really insist on having
[31:28 – 32:10] in the group, that would be important to you? In 12 minutes, we listed 20 things that were important to people. And, uh, we, we… Those came to be called goals. That's what we wanted that group to do, to be, to, to accomplish. And we finished that up. And, uh, when we got through, we were ready. And so we, we sent some folks out to, to, uh, to find a place to meet. They went to the went to the biggest Baptist church in the city. I remember the time when no Baptist church in the state of North Carolina would allow an AA meet, uh, AA
[32:10 – 32:35] group. They would hardly let an AA member come in there. They certainly wouldn't let a group. Because… I didn't know for a long time till somebody explained to me, they thought it meant they endorsed drinking if they had an AA group. And, uh, and so we're at the biggest one in town. And, uh, till, through… We, we just had a little group to go find a church and a meeting place. Didn't have to be a church. And they found one at the big old Baptist church.
[32:35 – 33:29] And, uh, when they came back and said, "Well, we got it." I said, "Okay, I'll, I'll, uh, I'll go down there and, uh, we'll see if we can negotiate some kind of a decent rental thing." And so I went down. There's three ministers that ganged up on me. Three of them. They, they ganged up. And, and, uh, I said, "Well, really appreciate you letting us use the property, and, uh, that we'll take care of it." And I said, "What do you think would be a fair rental for the, the facility part we're gonna use?" And they, the, the, the main guy spoke up and he said, "We don't rent property." I, I said, "Well, uh, okay." I said, "I'm a member of AA, and we're self-supporting. We pay our way. We, we, we, we, we pay our expenses, unlike what we used to do." And he said, "I understand that, but we don't rent property." I said, "Well, we don't
[33:29 – 34:14] take outside donations." Now, we're standing there, three ministers and me, arguing about something like that. And finally I think, "What on earth can I say to these dudes that's gonna make sense?" I said, "Do you take collections?" And they said, "My God, yeah. That's, that's how we exist." And, uh, I said, "All right. Count us in." God. And so, but we made up… 'Cause I had a real estate person in our group that said, "Tell us what's a fair price." She told us. And so every, every month, they've never objected to… So we put in a pretty, pretty good chunk every, every quarter we do it. But anyway, that was the way we got rolling. And, uh, we've been there now 18 years, I believe it is.
[34:14 – 35:11] And, uh, great, great relationship. As good as we ever had anywhere. And, and, and that group, primary purpose was exactly what those things that were on the chart, what we're about. We have primary purpose is carrying the message to alcoholics still sober. So we, we built the group to be an action-oriented group, not just sitting around studying and, and, and, and, and fat mouthing with each other. But we want it to be an action-oriented group so that we're about something. If there's a service in Alcoholics Anonymous, it's in my group. Existent, staffed, functioning. And, uh, when you talk about passing it on, you know, that to me is a critical vehicle for passing it on, is, is so that you got a, got a group that's gonna be able to, uh, not only receive alcoholics well, but to go find them.
[35:11 – 36:05] And, uh, you know, so part of, part of what we quit doing a long, long time ago when treatment, uh, sort of went away, uh… Well, when treatment came on, we quit doing 12-step calls. Well, I mean, we didn't just officially quit doing it. We just quit doing it. And we wound up with a sort of an antagonistic relationship with, with treatment centers, rather than having a cooperative thing. We wound up, uh, sort of critically throwing rocks over the fence and stuff, uh, stuff like that. We really, really, uh, uh, uh, did some harm in, in, uh, in this thing of how we bring alcoholics into the program. And, uh, so we, we set up all of those committees so we could have good relationship. CPC, cooperation with the professional community. And we have an active one.
[36:05 – 36:28] It's a strange thing. No offense, Kent, but the, um… We've had six chairs of CPC and PI- All of them have been physicians. I don't know why. I mean, God knows, I didn't know we had that many drunk physicians in my county. But we got them all, it looks like. And, uh, every one of them has been… And I don't think it's a conspiracy. We just stuck with them.
[36:28 – 36:59] We got doctors everywhere you look. And, uh, we've, uh, one going out about, about now. He's, he's, he's, he's, he's finishing his term, and I don't think we got another one waiting. We'll see. Uh, if, if they come up with another one, we'll… But anyway, they've done a g- darn good job. But what they, what we did with that is, is, is develop good work- working relationships. Cooperating with the professional community. It means work with them, not against them. Not criticize and condemn.
[36:59 – 37:28] Work with them. And so we make it our business to, uh, to, to, to reach out to the people who deal with alcoholics. And God knows they're everywhere. Treatment centers for doggone sure. Emergency rooms for doggone sure. I went over a while back to, uh… How are we doing so far? I'm leaving Monday. The way I'm going now, I think it's gonna be Tuesday before That's it. I'll goose it up a little bit.
[37:28 – 38:11] A little bit, not much, uh, 'cause people in North Carolina talk fast. The, uh, the, uh, the, the detox thing, you know, that, that, they, they, we, we capture drunks everywhere. And, uh, and I went over there to pinch hit for somebody a while back, and just filling in on a, on a spot, you know. And went in. And in, in a little area like ours, everybody knows everybody. So I walked up to the nurses station and, uh, the, and we all howdied. And, uh, and, uh, then, and one of the nurses said, said, "Tom, we don't have any alcoholics in, in detox this morning." And I said, "You gotta be kidding." And she said, "No, no, it's empty." I said, "Well, where are they?" She said, "I don't know. They may be drunk.
[38:11 – 38:58] I don't know, but they're not here." And I said, "Well," I said, "Heck, who would know?" And about that time, a really nice looking business, businesslike woman came walking down the hall that I didn't know. And so one of the nurses said, "By the way, here comes the manager of the, the beha…" They call it the behavioral section. That means anybody acting goofy- … is, is in that section. So including us. So, so, and so they introduced me to her. And, and I said, "Well, these folks tell me that you don't have anybody in detox." And she said, "That's right. We don't have a single person in there." I said, "Why?" She said, "Very simple. It's money." And I said, "Tell me about that." She said, "We're at a point where we no longer can take alco- alcoholics in
[38:58 – 39:52] unless they have a con- a diagnosis other than, in addition to alcoholism. We can't admit them for just straight out alcoholism." And I said, "That is unreal, man. We've been, we've been almost 30 years functioning in that hospital with, with that." And she said, "No, it just, the hammer's down and, and that, that's the way it is." And I said, so I said, "Well, that's a hell of a note." I said, "Well, what do you do if an alcoholic comes in and, and he doesn't have money?" And she said, "Well, he…" I said, "Just walk me through it." She said, "He'll go in to the, to emergency room," and they've got somebody… They got a name for that nurse that tells the people where… Well, I mean, later will tell them where to go, but tell, tell them, uh… Triage, that's it. Yeah, triage. And so, so you go in there and, and, uh, and, and tell them they wanna go to detox, and say, "Do you have insurance?" If they say no, say, "Do you have money?" If they say no,
[39:52 – 40:31] then the triage nurse says, "I'm sorry, we can't admit you." And I said, "Well, ain't that something? And then what do you do?" She said, "Well, we tell them goodbye, 'cause that's it." And I thought, boy, isn't that something? You talk about a return to the, to the bad old days. That's it. And there's nothing she can do about it. You know, that, I mean, she was a nice woman. And I know she would've loved to have done something about it, but she couldn't. You can't overrule whatever big organizations have their tentacles on, on, on hospitals. That's, she was stuck with it, and so were we. And, uh, so we had to, uh, uh, adjust our plans, you know.
[40:31 – 41:24] And so what we've, what we're, we're putting together right now is we're gonna put a list of names that'll make it available to that triage nurse, so if she says, "We can't admit you, but y- you may be able to call one of these people and they will help you." And, and so that's one way to pass it on. You know, you don't need, you don't have to have agencies in, interlaced with this if we can go straight at it, you know. So we'll, we'll, that's what we're gonna try. So there are tons of ways to do it. It's just a matter of, of if we want to do it. You know, and if we really want to do it, you know, there, there are ways to do it. And that's, and that's, you know, my point is that in a, in a group, if it, if part of its objective is not just to take care of me, but is to take care of the next person that needs to come in our door, you know, that's what we really want to get done. You-
[41:24 – 42:10] And so we, w- well, that's just one of the things we do with cooperation with Fresh Community, whoever they might be. Pro- probation, uh, for, for, uh, for… Let, let's just give you one other example of, of, um, it's not only passing it on, but maybe it's cleaning it up a little bit. You know, we got, uh, I'm sure it didn't happen in California. You guys are too sophisticated to put up with it. But the, uh, around most of the rest of the country, we got into a siege of having people sign little pieces of paper to, to verify that people had come to AA. And, uh, so you'd see these poor dudes come in with this little old piece of paper and say, "Will you sign this?" And, uh, you know, I learned what it's for. And I, I would always say, "No, I won't.
[42:10 – 42:55] But Kent's got a brand-new pen. He'll do it." And so I'd just pass the buck to somebody that wasn't quite as uptight about it as me. I just didn't want to, to sign the paper. And it wasn't because I didn't like the guy. I don't want to let myself become an agent of an agency. And if I sign that paper, I'm an agent of that agency, and I don't wanna be that. I don't wanna be an extension of his probation. You know, I wanna be a place where a guy can come and find help for his problem, not his, not his situation. And so, now, I don't- I didn't like doing that, but it was better, uh, for me. Uh, but that was just one s- one little minor solution.
[42:55 – 43:45] But, uh, one d- uh, one… I walked out of a committee one night. It was, our, our corrections committee was meeting, and I said, "Would you guys like to try to do something about eliminating that paper signing stuff?" And, um, one of the guys sponsored, 40-some-year guy, and he said, "Oh, hell, Tom, you can't do anything about that. They do it all over the country." And I said, "Well, let's don't worry about the country. Let's just do it right here in Mayberry." And he said, he said, "Well, we can try, but it won't work." I said, "Well, let's, let's try. That's what the Wright brothers said." And so, and so we, we, we, uh… I had a young, a young doc, one of those CP CPI docs I had. Brand-new guy, a airhead if you've ever seen one. He was…
[43:45 – 44:02] What do you call the guy that puts gas in people at, uh- Anesthesiologist. Anesthesiologist. That's it. That's what he was. Yeah, he forgot what he was, but he… That's what he was, anesthesiologist. Somebody knows. I'll introduce you to Mark. He'll, he'll… He s- he, he really was a…
[44:02 – 44:42] I mean, that boy had, had, he had sucked up a lot of something. It made him just goofy. And he… And so, and he was our CP CPI chair, and, and, and gung ho. He was charged up and ready to go, but he didn't know where to go. Yes, he was all over the place. And so I said to him, "Look here. I think we got a project." And he said, he said, "What is it?" And so his first, uh, assignment, I went with him, but his first assignment was to go m- to set up a meeting with the head of the probation system in our region and, uh, see if we couldn't solve that riddle somehow.
[44:42 – 45:29] And, um, so we, uh, we got an appointment. And, um, uh, and I was, and I was gonna help him a little bit, so I was flying. So I probably flew out from California 'cause I had a long, uh, road walk. And I was writing out, why do I despise doing that so much? And I took a whole legal pad, and I think I wound up with 35 things that made that very objectionable to me. And, uh, got through with it. It's scribbled just like it would be in a, in a airplane. And number six on that, I'll never forget because he made it come alive, said, if I, just what I mentioned earlier, if I sign that, it makes me a connected agent of that, of that agency, and I don't wanna be that. Yeah.
[45:29 – 46:14] And, and so we had that, and I took what I wrote on the airplane and the airhead doc, and we went over to meet with the head of the probation deal. And he was predictably just like most, uh, uh, most agency people. When they have a citizen coming in to see them, they know it's not gonna be happy birthday, you know? They know that. They know you mad about something, you know? And so he was this, this guy typically was in the defensive position behind his d- big old desk, and this little old guy was back in there trying to hide from us and, uh… Yeah, but we could see him. And, and so, so we started to talk.
[46:14 – 46:55] And I gave it. Now, my… I was in a rush 'cause I'd, I'd just come back, and my wife rewrote it in hand so he could read it. He couldn't read mine. And he got to that same one I just mentioned, number six, that it makes me an agency, and he said, "Well, I'll be damned. I never thought of that." I said, "Me either." I was in that plane the other day, and I was right up next to God, and he told me to put that in there. And to show it to you. He, he said, "Well, I sure can't argue with that." I said, "Right on, buddy." And we solved it, you know. And that's just about 18 years ago, and we haven't seen a piece of paper since.
[46:55 – 47:34] And we haven't seen any decrease in the number of alcoholics coming into our group either. You see what I'm talking about? You pass it on. Sometimes you gotta figure out how to, how to get rid of the barriers instead of just how to drag somebody in. You know, how do you get people in in an appropriate kind of way? How do you get people in without going through, through some kind of a compromising, uh, me- me- method, you know? And I throw that in. There's no extra charge for that now. That's, uh, that's just part of the deal, yeah. And, uh, but, you know, when you talk about passing it on, my, my God, there's a million ways that we do that, and I'm just mentioning some that, that, that, that you might
[47:34 – 48:02] be able to give some thought to. And, uh, if you wanna fix something… Do you wanna dance? What, what… Isn't that embarrassing when you're sitting there and the, the thing- That's when you just wanna stomp it. I, I been in that position. That, that's terrible. Anybody, any question or comment or anything ab- ab- ab- whatever. Either, either, either or neither is okay with me. I got one.
[48:02 – 48:27] Was, uh, was that a dry county that you were in, uh, when you talked about the bootlegger? Well, legally it was dry. Okay. But that didn't keep it from being awfully wet. We, we had more bootleggers than you could imagine. They were everywhere. They did? Yeah. But they called it dry, which m- was good for the bootleggers. They, they loved dry counties.
[48:27 – 48:41] They… And they, so they wet them down. Anybody? Anything? You know, telling where I'll go now, you better head me somewhere if you want- Yeah. Go … want me to go somewhere different. Yeah, yeah. There is a question. Yeah.
[48:41 – 49:28] Many of us got here feeling like you must have felt when you had killed two people. Yeah. How in the world do you get from wanting to not live and just call it a whole, how did you end up being able to, to, to handle the chairs? I mean, how, how do you go from, you know, just totally shut down to actually taking action in Alcoholics Anonymous? Mm-hmm. Being s- you know, being… Just having, having, uh, enough self-worth to, to walk in. Mm-hmm. Well, the amazing thing that, uh, uh, I don't know if you've ever seen this or not, but we have 12 steps that tell us exactly how to do that.
[49:28 – 49:58] God, yeah. That's, uh… Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But, but if, if, uh… I mean, I, I don't think there's any magical thing that, that, that, that we do as individuals. If I, if I, if I, if I take the… If I do what those steps ask me to do, and do it to the best of my ability, just like the book says, I'll be amazed before I'm halfway through. And, uh, and it's nothing, nothing about it.
[49:58 – 50:32] I don't think you have to invent new skills or anything like that. You know, that, um, I didn't have any negotiating ability, how to deal with judges or governors or anything like that. But if you got… If you're armed with, with the right tools, and you're prepared, you don't have to have training. You, you know, that, that… You just, that natural know how to handle a situation that used to baffle us, you know, as, as the book says. So I, I think it's just, it's a product, you know, it's a product of what we do in the program. It's… And not special skills or abilities. It's, it's, uh, it's, it's the whole deal for me.
[50:32 – 51:30] And, yeah, I tell you, I've done things that I think would have, would have, would have scared me to death as, uh… You know, a lot of times when, uh, you know, some, some of y'all know I, I went to, from one extreme to the other. I was an inmate in a maximum custody penitentiary, and then a few years later I was a warden in a penitentiary in, in North Carolina. And, uh, in several penitentiaries in North Carolina. And, uh, there were a lot of times when I'd be sitting in some, some thing in the capital with the budget de- decisions for this whole state or the whatever, and I'd be sitting there and I'd get to thinking, I said, "Do these people know who I am?" Here I am voting on the destiny of my state. But it, it's amazing what happens, yeah. It just, uh, just the native skills, you know, of ability. And I did bother to take a little college to go with it.
[51:30 – 51:58] But the native skills are the, really the thing. And then the, what we, what we pick up in the program. How to deal with, appropriately with people is a lot of what we're about. And, uh, have good relations with people. Our traditions do an awfully good job of, of, uh- Of how to work well with people. Yeah, wouldn't, wouldn't, wouldn't… Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry, Tom. Um, did I understand you to say that when you discontinued signing what we call here court cards- Yeah …
[51:58 – 52:21] that your population was on the decrease? Was on the what? Decrease. Let's say- De- Stable. No. No, it didn't change. It didn't change. No. No, what changed was the, the feeling of the person walking in the door, which is what mattered. Yeah, that's what really mattered.
[52:21 – 53:02] 'Cause when somebody comes in and they feel like a second-class member for the minute they walk in, you, you gotta get somebody to, to validate them, you know? And so that's what we were trying to get rid of. The, the numbers that, um… The numbers of people that were, were coming in didn't change. Uh, we still got a lot of people, but when they come in, w- we don't ask them where they come from. We don't have to, and they don't have to tell us where they came from. They walk in just like you and I walked in, and walked in the door and was accepted at face value, and that's what, that's what we were fighting for. Didn't want a guy to come in there… You, can you imagine? I don't know…
[53:02 – 53:52] I've never had to sign a piece of paper. Can you imagine how that must feel to walk in and walk up to a guy and say, "Would you sign this for me verifying that I'm human and breathing," or whatever it is? But what a hell of a way to greet somebody to AA, and that's what we were battling about, was getting rid of that. That's not the way we wanna carry our message. If we wanna pass it on, we gotta pass it on and not affiliate with the c- the capturing, uh, ethic. Yeah, so that… and that's what we were really battling about, and, uh, and boy, it worked out well, too, extremely well. And we've got, we've got it… I, I won't go into a whole bunch about it, but it, it's, it's not only true of just people like that coming out of probation. We've, we've, we've done something with the lawyers of our state.
[53:52 – 54:43] The, uh, the, uh, lawyers… well, a- anybody that's mandated. Physicians, the same thing. You know, anybody that's mandated to do something to get treatment or to go to AA, uh, they come in with a burden. You know, they come in with a handicap that's been given to them, and if they don't get rid of it and get into personal ownership, they're gonna have a hard time making it in AA. And so we had the l- lawyers… I, uh, to just throw this in here to, in case you wanna give some thought to that. I, uh, one… a guy I sponsored one time called me about a lawyer he was sponsoring, and he said, I… He said, "Tom, I don't know what to tell this guy." He said he, he doesn't know whether to give up AA or his law practice, but he said he is so beaten
[54:43 – 55:24] down with mandated activities. Had to see a psychiatrist on a regular basis, had to go in for counseling on a regular basis, had to go all of this sort of, sort of, uh, uh, you know, c- c… oh, what you call it? But anyway, this thing of having to c- crumble into this sort of system of the mandated behavior. Well, that's, that's, that's fine and dandy, but it prevents ownership. It's hard to have ownership if you got somebody that's slave-driving you. And so he said, "I, I don't know what to tell this guy." And I said, "Well, let me give it some thought." You know, and so I, that just happened. I, I was lucky. I, I was doing a little…
[55:24 – 56:03] about one… uh, every year I, I do a, a, a session with the college where a lot of lawyers w- went, would… future lawyers went. And, uh, I would go over and do a session on dealing with alcoholics in a court setting, and it just… I'm no expert except I've been there a lot of times , so I could tell them some stuff. But what it did that was the law class. Well, this, this gave me some brownie points with that guy. And, um, right a-… If you don't think there's a God, you should listen to this. Right after this guy gave me that dilemma, I was in a, in, in the capital for some reason.
[56:03 – 56:55] I was in a cafeteria or a, a s- go-eat line, and, uh, I was right behind this guy, and, uh, and I tapped him on the shoulder and I said, "Hey, uh, I need a little help with something." And, uh, he said, "What?" So we ate together, and I told him about this quandary of these, these lawyers that are in captivity. And I said, "Man, this thing sucks." And, and he said, "You know, I agree with you." And so what we did was, uh, I called it the Drunk Lawyer Program. They had a little fa- fancier name for it, but I called it the Drunk Lawyer Program. And, and so what we did wa- all it was simple things. All we did was identify some contact people, and if you got a drunk lawyer, comes out and he's coming somewhere, hook him to an AA member. Not to some c- you know, thing. Get him somebody, a contact. Let him make the phone call.
[56:56 – 57:24] Let's say you got some ownership in the thing. He said, "That makes sense." I said, "Okay, fine. I'll teach your class." You know? No, no, I didn't, but, but it, it was as simple as that, eh? It just, just a matter of just sh- put yourself into the guy's place. How you gonna feel? You're a professional man, and you gotta go compromise and sit in there and act like a, a third grade student or something. You know? Well, that's no way to treat somebody. And, uh, so just looking at it as a human.
[57:24 – 57:59] So we've got that now, and we're trying to get this… The, the problem we've got in spreading it across the entire state is the lack of, of, of potential sponsors. You know, that when you get into North Carolina, it's not San Francisco. You know, we're not overloaded with the, the geniuses. Uh, well, no, we got some smart people but, uh- … but, but not many of them. So we run out of people. You gotta have… You gotta have, uh, responsible contacts that you can get. And so we're stymied a little bit in some areas that we just don't have the resource, but otherwise the willingness is there.
[57:59 – 58:28] And I think anybody that's gonna offer something that'll relieve somebody's stuff is a way… You talk about how to get people, pass it on. You know, that… Think about those people. It's as difficult for a, a, a professional person to come into AA as it is a guy like me coming from the total other end of the thing. It's ju- as difficult, if not more, for that. So, um, anyway, that, uh… But that's, that's, that's a good question. That, uh… Yeah.
[58:28 – 59:04] My name's Greg Sorry? So it's Greg. I'm a colleague of yours. Yeah. Uh, it, it didn't occur to me until you started talking about, uh, going into the detox and dealing with the triage nurse- You gotta talk up a little bit. I'm old. Yeah. When you were talking about going into the, the hospital and working with the detox and dealing with the triage nurses and stuff like that, it hadn't occurred to me until you said that, but there's a hospital that I live, like, a block away from, and I was curious if you had any specific, uh, experience. Like, this day and age, like, somebody like me wanting to go into a hospital and say, you know, "If you have drugs and need help, like, I'm literally down the street." Yeah.
[59:04 – 59:46] Are there caveats or legalities, or is there a process you can recommend other than- Mm-hmm … of course walking in the front door and saying, "Hey, I'm a member of AA"? Mm-hmm. Let me tell you what, what, um, what, what, what I, I believe, uh, uh, very much. Uh, is that if you walk in with that kind of thing they're gonna think you're the village idiot. And, uh, if, um, if y- y- y- y- what I've… Over the years, what I've done, I… In fact, I meant to bring a copy of it in, but it's about that big. It's called A Four Step Process, and I think there are four steps that are absolutely essential for starting a program in any kind of a system, or, or a business or whatever.
[59:46 – 1:00:15] Hospital. Four steps. And the, the four steps, I should know them, uh, so I could just recite it. So I'll just do it, and you won't know if I'm lying. But, but, but the first one is that you meet with the top person. If it's a prison, uh, we're gonna meet with the warden. If the warden's too busy, so am I. And so I, I don't yield on that. If it's an industry, you, I'm gonna meet with the person that's in charge of that. A strange thing happens.
[1:00:15 – 1:01:00] When the person in charge nods, everybody nods. And when he does that, nobody moves. They just, they're stunned, you know? And so that's why, again, I wanna make sure if that person at the top is, is amenable to what's going on. So I want to do that. I want to meet with them, and, and then what I want to do in that meeting is basically say, "Here's what we're interested in and, and think we're capable of doing. And in order to do it, we need, one, we need to really get acquainted with your facility," whatever it is, whether it's a prison or a school or a, a industry or whatever. We wanna go in and, and evaluate what is this. You know, what is it we can do here? Not go in with some preconceived notion that we'll just throw in an AA group and it's gonna work.
[1:01:00 – 1:01:32] But go in and take a look at the environment we're gonna work in. And it, it's got to fit that environment. You gotta design the program to fit that environment. And, uh, first place I ever did this was in a county jail. The two or three I was going over to meet with the sheriff, who was the top guy. And I just made that up, you know, that this was important. Didn't know it till I met him and then to, to, to verify it. And, and met… And sure enough, had the d- chief deputy and the administrator of the jail. And when the sheriff would nod, they'd nod.
[1:01:32 – 1:02:06] So it, it, it really proved to be true. And so we left there and said, "We'd like to go through the jail." And we knew where, where it was. And most of us had been in one, so we knew what they were, but that's not good enough. We wanted to go through and take a look at, you know, what is this environment? Where is the possible meeting places? Where are the ti- what's the times of access? When are there times that are workable? When are they not? So, so you, you gotta develop a program to fit the environment, not just go and say, "Here's what we do."