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Source: 1985 Montreal International Convention – Multi Speakers – HOW AA COOPERATES WITH OTHER SELF HELP GROUPS – RS 06413.mp3 File: 1985-montreal-international-convention-multi-speakers-how-aa-cooperates-with-other-self-help-groups-rs-06413.mp3 Duration: 01:31:27
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I'd like to begin the meeting with a moment of silence and respect and thanks for the recoveries of so many people over the past 50 years. Would you all then join me in the serenity prayer? Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. There may be some here who are not familiar with our tradition of anonymity at the public level and I'd like to just read this announcement once again.
Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion. We need always to maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films. We respectfully ask that no AA speaker or indeed any AA member be identified by full name or photograph in published or broadcast reports of our meeting. The assurance of anonymity is essential in our effort to help other problem drinkers who may wish to share our recovery program with us and our tradition of anonymity reminds us that the AA principles come before personalities.
Now we can begin our meeting. As you see the topic or the outline for the meeting, we'll be talking about how AA cooperates with other self-help groups. We have a speaker from Al-Anon, a speaker from Narcotics Anonymous, and a speaker from the AA program itself. What we hope to do is have 20 minute presentations from each of our speakers and then give you an opportunity for questions, discussion, back and forth so that we can expand on what is a critical topic.
We don't have written in here the crisis that people talked about several years ago, but as many of you were aware that in recent years the influx of people with problems other than alcohol was posing a serious threat to the fellowship. At that time we wondered how we could cooperate, how we could effectively work with other groups. As we were going through that crisis, and indeed in some ways we're still in it, people harken back to some of the earlier ways that the fellowship learned to cooperate with other self-help groups.
To begin our panel today, we will talk with or we will hear from the chairperson of that other self-help group that began shortly after Alcoholics Anonymous and all of the difficulties that were there in the beginning of the partnership. Would you welcome with me the chairperson of Al-Anon, Norma M. Hi everyone. It's really a tremendous privilege and pleasure to be here this afternoon on this program and to just share a small part in this very special international convention of Alcoholics Anonymous.
The Al-Anon family groups around the world, with a lot of joy and gratitude, congratulate AA on your 50th anniversary. I'll share with you a little bit about the early cooperation between AA and Al-Anon, some of the history and how it is now. I think the fact that I'm here in the program at all tells you that our cooperation is alive and well. I think the most current example of cooperation between AA and Al-Anon is the fact that we're here in Montreal and having our own first international convention.
Thank you. That kind of cooperation that had to happen for us to be here shows you that we are able
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to work very, very closely together. The early family groups participated in the very first AA international in 1950. That's before there was such a thing as Al-Anon. Since that time, at every AA international, they have invited us to participate. But this year, the board of trustees of both fellowships agreed that that was just no longer feasible and a decision was made that we would hold our own.
But in order for us to do that, again we had to have the cooperation from AA, because when the site committee chose Montreal for the 1985 international, they made arrangements with all the major hotels in the city for space. It was only because AA agreed to release some of that space that we were even able to be here at all and holding our own international. About two weeks ago, with these two internationals coming along so quickly, we found out that there was a conflict in time between the AA host committee's press conference and our own.
Our general secretary called AA to ask if there was something that could be done to resolve that. Again, AA came through for us and they were able to make a change. I'd just like to read an excerpt from the letter that we sent to AA after that happened. Thanks so much for letting us know that the day of the AA host committee press conference has been changed. Considering the enormity of both conventions and the need both fellowships have in common, I feel that overall we've done amazingly well.
There could have been some tremendous competitive problems, but they were reduced to mere challenges. Clearly, the fellowship of AA has cooperated with many self-help groups. A recent newspaper article reported that the AA program of recovery has been borrowed by about 400 other self-help groups. But the Al-Anon family groups, which include Al-Ateen for our younger members, enjoy a very unique and special relationship with AA, although we are a separate fellowship.
We were closely allied in our origins and are naturally brought together by our family ties. Perhaps a statement made by an Al-Anon friend of mine might better describe that unique relationship we have. Very often when she's speaking at a meeting which includes both AA and Al-Anon, she will begin by saying, I would like to thank the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous for the program of recovery which they so graciously shared with us, just as they so generously shared their disease.
I believe it's safe to say that the cooperation we enjoy today actually began before the birth of either fellowship. I believe it began when first Bill and then Dr. Bob became sober, and Lois and Ann worked side by side with their husbands helping other alcoholics. In New York, Bill and Lois lived in Brooklyn in a second-floor apartment, and as Lois had described it, the house was filled with drunks in varying stages of recovery.
One AA member has described those days by saying, all of us were living rent-free, food-free, and everything free, and Lois did everything. She was working in a department store during the day and cooking for us and providing all the money that we had. At the same time, a similar scenario is being enacted in Akron, Ohio, in the home of Dr. Bob and Ann. Another early AA member said of Ann, a very great privilege was mine.
I was literally taken off the streets and nursed back to life by Ann Smith.
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Bob will know when I say this that I'm not minimizing his part of my recovery, but when a couple undertakes the sort of job that the Smiths took on with me, it is the wife who is going to bear at least a slightly heavier part of the burden. These were two very dedicated women who labored with every fiber of their being to help alcoholics. Sadly, Ann Smith did not live to see the formation of the Al-Anon family groups as we know them today, but her tireless work with the families of alcoholics and the early family groups laid the cornerstone for the fellowship that was to become Al-Anon.
In her book, Lois Remembers, Lois wrote, Annie's part in the foundation of Al-Anon should never be forgotten, especially by family groups. Although there were few family groups during the 13 years of her activity, Annie did much to instill the spirit of Al-Anon in families of alcoholics. God bless Annie's memory. Following are excerpts taken from an article about Ann Smith which appeared in the AA Grapevine the following year.
Again, AA was cooperating. They were carrying stories about the early family groups and about families of alcoholics from the very beginning. It is doubtful if now, only one year after her passing, that the true significance of Ann Smith's life can be realized. Certainly it cannot yet be written, for the warmth of her love and charm of her personality and the strength of her humility are still upon those of us who knew her.
For Ann Smith was far more than a precious lady. She was one of four people chosen by a higher destiny to perform a service to mankind. How great this contribution is, only time and an intelligence beyond man's can determine. With Dr. Bob, Lois, and Bill, Ann Smith stepped into history, not as a heroine, but as one willing to accept God's will and to do what needed to be done. It was she, perhaps, who first understood the miracle of what passed between Bill and Dr. Bob.
For Ann understood the simplicity of faith. Perhaps that's why God chose her for us. So in the simplest way we know, and speaking for AAs everywhere, let's just say, thanks, Dr. Bob, for sharing her with us. The family group idea is nearly as old as Alcoholics Anonymous. During the early years of AA, close relatives of AA members often traveled with them to meetings. By 1935, many relatives were meeting together to share with each other the personal help they received when they tried to live by the AA 12 steps, because they had discovered that family relationships often remained difficult, even after the alcoholic has become sober.
While they were grateful for the sobriety that had come into their homes, they were struggling to make sense out of what was happening, since that sobriety did not bring the happiness they had expected it would. Although they were trying to rebuild their own lives and to live spiritually by the 12 steps of AA, the principles by which some of these groups were trying to live seem to indicate that their primary purpose actually was to support and encourage the alcoholic with their own recovery becoming secondary.
I have three little sets of principles by which some of these groups were trying to live. One said, the wives' meetings of AA are held for the purpose of showing the wife how she can be of help to her husband in overcoming his problem with alcohol and at the same time promoting a spirit of cooperation in the home that will show the whole family the AA way of life is the answer to all problems. Another group had some do's and don'ts for an alcoholic's wife.
Do show an interest in everything your husband is doing. Do show loving concern.
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Do appear happy and detached. Do be cheerful. Do cooperate. Do be patient. Do attend their open meetings. Do think. Don't bring up the past. Don't say you're a fine example. Don't argue. Don't show that you know too much about the program. Don't have a martyr's attitude. Don't be indifferent. Don't be smug. Don't nag. Don't hurry. Don't worry. Read the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Encourage your husband to talk about the program with you. His recovery is as much your business as his, and inspire him with your interest.
Throughout those early years, Lois was almost as much a part of AA as Bill was, and if she traveled with him to visit the AA groups, they usually invited her to speak briefly at their meetings. Many of the early family groups really felt they were a part of AA, and the names some of them chose indicate that. One group was the AA Auxiliary, another was the Non-Alcoholics Anonymous, and a third was AA Wise. In gratitude, some of these groups even sent contributions to the Alcoholic Foundation, which was later to become AA's GSO. Of course, the contributions were returned, and a note expressing their appreciation by explaining their tradition about accepting outside contributions. In 1950, in his travels to AA throughout the United States and Canada, Bill became very much aware of the serious impact the disease of alcoholism was having on families, and the problems that remained even after sobriety.
He recognized something had to be done. Someone needed to provide some services for these groups, but the Alcoholic Foundation had not been intended to do that. So it was really Bill who encouraged Lois to open an office and service those groups. At that time, Lois wasn't quite as enthusiastic about the project as Bill was. He really willed a lot to Bill for his interest in the family group. But Lois and Bill had moved into a new home, and she really loved working in the house and in the garden. She would admit she would have preferred to stay there. But she knew Bill was right. These groups did need services, and the Alcoholic Foundation was not responsible for them. So the following year, with Bill's encouragement, she formed a Clearinghouse Committee, and they responded to the 87 groups that had applied to the Alcoholic Foundation. They worked for a time in Bill and Lois's home, and the following year, AA encouraged them to move into an unused studio in the AA clubhouse. They moved in. They polled the groups that were in existence at the time and chose the name Al-Anon Family Groups, and also adopted AA's Twelve Steps for their own recovery. Again in her book, Lois wrote, AA members have always been of tremendous help to Al-Anon, especially in the beginning. They were tireless in answering our many questions on structure and policy. They gave us meeting rooms at their large gatherings. They encouraged us in every way. Bill felt very strongly about the family group movement, and just as Lois had worked by his side to help the alcoholics, Bill now worked by her side in helping the families. As the history of the Al-Anon Family Groups unfolds, it's clear
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to see that our growth has been due in large part to the guidance and encouragement of AA. But I do not presume that this relationship was always trouble-free. Rather, I am inclined to believe that there were times when the relationship may have been strained. The Al-Anon Family Groups were relatively new in finding their way, and I suspect there were some AA members who were uneasy about what direction they would take and what impact that might have on Alcoholics Anonymous. I think that a report from the second AA General Service Conference kind of bears that out, and I'll read just a portion of that report. More time was spent reviewing and discussing the past, present, and probable future of the so-called family groups than was devoted to any other item on the AA conference agenda. An extra full session of the conference was convened solely for the purpose of allowing everyone who wanted to participate in that discussion to have an opportunity. Here is how it all summed up. The family groups are not a new development. Family groups seem here to stay and are increasing rapidly. Family group representatives have affirmed their distinct entity. The groups are not seeking to use the AA name. As now set up, they do not impinge on AA and don't intend to. Development of family groups is viewed sympathetically in virtually all areas.
Out of 77 delegates at that second conference, only two came with what might be construed as criticisms of the family groups. Delegates to the 1952 conference approved unanimously the work that Bill and Lois have done to encourage and support the sound growth down on family groups. This statement, framed in a special resolution at the close of the final policy session, was adopted by an enthusiastic standing vote of all delegates. Among the many articles that the AA grapevine has carried about our fellowship was an excellent one in 1957 about the newly formed Alateen groups. Again, AA cooperated with us, gave us reprint permission, and that leaflet is now distributed by the Al-Anon family groups. While cooperation continued in New York between AA and Al-Anon, things were not always quite that harmonious on the area and group level. My personal experience of 25 years ago is that Al-Anon was under very careful scrutiny by AA. Most AAs had never attended an Al-Anon meeting, were not sure what we talked about, and were quite fearful that we were meeting to discuss some of their escapades. I have to admit, again based on my own personal experience, that some of their concerns were not unfounded. We were new, we were small, we were growing, we were learning, but we were making mistakes. I'm happy to report to you that we Al-Anons are recovering with the 12 steps you gave us, and I believe that today we have a very healthy relationship with AA. In fact, it's been many, many years since I've been referred to as one of the Sisters of Perpetual Revenge. As Al-Anon grew and new services were needed, the staff at AA's GSO was always available. We followed everything they did. They sat with us. We learned from some of their mistakes. They have never stopped cooperating with us, and I'm sure we were able to avoid a lot of the pitfalls that AA had because of the kind of cooperation we've had with them. On occasion, there are situations where the staffs from both offices sit down together to work out whatever the difficulty there might be.
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From our small beginnings of 50 groups 34 years ago and a handful of volunteers, we now have 25,000 groups around the world in 81 countries. Incidentally, about 25 of them are represented here, and a World Service office with a staff of 65 people. This year, as we celebrate our 25th World Service Conference and our first international convention, I think it's safe to say Al-Anon has really come of age. We are deeply grateful for the cooperation we've always received from AA. I'm sure our growth and development were made smoother because they allowed us to follow in their footsteps, and now I believe we are making footsteps of our own. But we must never forget that though we are a separate entity, our heritage is deeply rooted in the fellowship of AA. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Norma. Now our second presenter, representative from Narcotics Anonymous, Robert N. Thank you. My name is Bob. I'm an ad hoc member of Narcotics Anonymous. It's such a privilege to be here at this 50th anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous. And, you know, looking over the multitude of people and seeing recovery from the disease of alcoholism makes me look back many, many years and hoping from where we started in Narcotics Anonymous that someday in the near future that I can look over and see the sea of people with the shining eyes recovering from drug addiction.
Our history goes back, I'm sure, not as far back as Alcoholics Anonymous, but our first contact, you know, is the starting of our history of Narcotics Anonymous. It was in 1953, and it started with a thought in an H&I meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous when a person asked if there's any help and cooperation that they can get to help the addict with their specific problem. They contacted the GSO office in 1953 and had a little conversation, and they gave us the greatest thing that Alcoholics Anonymous could give us, and that's the Twelve Steps of Recovery and the Twelve Traditions.
The years that passed, we had very little contact with Alcoholics Anonymous, and our fellowship was sort of like a roller coaster for many, many reasons. Some of the reasons were that legally in many states there were laws that addicts could not associate with each other. So that sort of stymied some of our big populated areas in the United States. But soon, because of understanding the recovery in alcoholism, the disease, that they started maybe understanding that there was a disease of addiction, that the addicts had a disease.
So in time that has diminished quite a bit. Today in our fellowship we started with very, very few meetings, and the cooperation at that time was just basically using and hopefully sending in every five years permission to use the Twelve Steps and Traditions that at times we forgot to do, because our paperwork wasn't too good. And we were working out of a paper box for so many years, and there another was sort of like a cultural thing and we did a lot of things by word of mouth.
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So our paperwork, you know, is someplace, somewhere, somehow. And I think that, you know, the most beautiful thing that has happened is that the biggest growth period that we had was from a very few meetings that I mentioned to this year, to give you an idea, that of January 1985 we had 4,025 meetings. In June of this year we have 5,100 meetings. We have meetings in 23 countries. Our fellowship has grown tremendously in Australia, in England, and is starting to bloom here in Canada.
And then also we have a large fellowship in Ireland. And we've had representatives from Germany and so many different countries. And just before I left, we had contact with meetings in Guam and meetings in Japan and Tokyo. So, so much, because our communication is just starting to develop, we are finding out, you know, so many things. And then the cooperation has been so beautiful because it's an interesting thing.
I was talking to a member of your fellowship about cooperation and how AA does cooperate. It's that so many times members of AA have come up to me in different conferences in different places and have told me things, you know, different ways that they've cooperated, without even, you know, any verbal communication. Somebody comes to a meeting that they have a meeting directory there, you know, that, you know, one fellow who was, you know, part of the services of Alcoholics Anonymous suggested that they put, you know, in their hotline system at a central office, and somebody calls up and asks, you know, and says that they have a son or daughter that has an addiction problem or significant others, that we have someplace to refer them, that we would refer them, you know.
And it's the same cooperation that we have in our services, that when somebody calls and says something about alcoholism, that they have a family member, but this, you know, this was the only number that they have, that we have a copy of a directory. And we give that information. We don't sit and try to explain. We just give the information to the nearest hotline or try to give the information to the nearest meeting.
And that's how I feel is, you know, the best way to cooperate, you know, on both, you know, for both fellowships. We have, you know, contacted in the last, you know, our program started, you know, functioning more in a type of a unity, you know, through a service structure. We started, you know, this in 1978. And the last seven years, you know, we've had, you know, seven service conferences. About a year and a half ago, we again contacted Alcoholics Anonymous when we started our World Service Office, you know, seeking a little encouragement, seeking also help.
And it was the most, you know, the most beautiful thing is that the arms were open, you know. And that was the most beautiful thing, I think, that was felt, you know, through our fellowship. I know in our service conference, when one of our members of the Board of Trustees came back and reported to our service conference what happened, that he got a standing ovation. And I think that was a beautiful thing that shows cooperation from both fellowships because, you know, because our history, the nature of our disease runs so parallel that we feel it's so very, very important.
And from our contact and the open arms, you know, that were open to us, that we have dealt with specific issues in certain areas that we would like to move in, certain areas we'd like to know about. And you know, hopefully some of our ideas was, well, maybe since we are, you know, working on a parallel, going parallel, you know, that the parallel also would be in the history. So we figured it's a good possibility maybe that we can circumvent or stop some of the problems that Alcoholics Anonymous had.
And we found out that that's up to the guy upstairs, to the higher power, because we're
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going to have to go through, we're going to have to have faith, and we're going to have to have the wishes of the group conscience and the consciousness of our fellowship to help guide us through these problems that occurred. And I know in service that one of my defects of character is that when I see a problem is to hurry up and find a solution to stop the problem from occurring. But I know if I work my program and I work the steps that I've soon realized that this isn't the way it is, you know, that it's going to be God's will, you know, not my will or not anybody else's will in terms of our growth of this fellowship.
But just being invited here, you know, I know for myself and, you know, for the fellowship of Narcotics Anonymous, you know, that it is, you know, it's an honor, you know, to be here and share. And I think that the cooperation is so important that, you know, when an addict comes in and also I'm not, you know, sure that, you know, I mean, how I feel that if a person comes in it's up to that person where they want to go.
And I think it's up to that person to spend time to find out where he should be or if not to be or whatever. See, that's that person's, you know, decision to make. We're not, you know, we're not here to compete, you know, we're only here to do the tasks that hopefully, you know, the man upstairs wants us to do. And that is to, you know, help the addict that still suffers. And I'm sure with the cooperation, you know, that we've had, you know, in the past and the cooperation that we have today that we're sure going to be, you know, you know, tapping those lines, you know, and I'm sure if there's any questions I'll be happy to answer.
Thank you very much. Thank you, Bob. And I know there will be questions and participate in a discussion following our last speaker. Last speaker, I had the opportunity to hear several years ago at a conference, at the General Service Conference. At the time we were speaking to this particular issue, the issue of the influx into AA meetings of people with other addictions. And when this speaker gave up and gave his experiences in Georgia, it was very reassuring to the group at large and pointed the way to some of the things that we in Alcoholics Anonymous can do to help to resolve that particular problem.
So welcome our next speaker, John from Georgia. Thank you, Dr. Flint. I am John Langston, and I'm an alcoholic. It's an honor to be here, and I want to thank Sarah for the loving invitation to appear on the program. It's an honor to be with these two speakers, Norma and Bob. Norma, I'd like to have a copy of that Do's and Don'ts for Al-Anon. I have an Al-Anon, and she's in the room today, but I'm afraid she might have missed some of that.
I might need to instruct her a little bit. I'll sure catch it when I get down from here. I said that I'm an alcoholic. I'm a recovering alcoholic in Alcoholics Anonymous. I've been sober since February of 1971. That was not my first introduction to Alcoholics Anonymous, because I had to try it again. Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength, and hope with each other, that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.
AA has a solution for alcoholics. Anyone who has a desire to stop drinking can recover. We are here in Montreal this weekend celebrating 50 years of recovery in Alcoholics Anonymous, which began with Dr. Bob's last drink on June 10, 1935. I would like to add here, and I'm supposed to talk about how cooperation with AA and
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AA began in Georgia. I'm not going to talk about that. I don't usually do what I'm told. I haven't been sober that long. Besides that, I don't know how the cooperation began in Georgia. All I know is how I do and how I cooperate and some of the people that I know. Incidentally, Bill and Dr. Bob had a lot of help in getting this thing started, a lot of help from non-alcoholics, and we owe them a great debt of gratitude.
Dr. Selkworth, who pointed out the disease concept of alcoholism, and the great Dr. Shoemaker who laid the groundwork for our Twelve Steps, and Father Ed Dowling who stressed the spiritual needs of alcoholics, and who could ever forget Bernard Smith and his influence in our general service structure and our Twelve Concepts for World Service and the beginning of our general service conference, and John D. Rockefeller who pointed out the principle of self-support and that we didn't need a lot of money and that we ought to support ourselves.
That's probably one of the greatest things that ever happened to Alcoholics Anonymous. The men on the board today, like Dr. Flynn and the others, who give so unsparingly of their time for us, a bunch of nameless drunks, as Alcoholics Anonymous began to grow and group began to form, problems began to appear. Different opinions caused serious arguments. In fact, there were some resignations from the board, but I think they finally did come back. One of the greatest problems to confront our fellowship was that of membership requirements.
I understand that they sent out from New York, which was called Headquarters then, asking groups to send in a list of their requirements. When they did, they found out that if they put all of those into effect, that nobody would be qualified to be a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. The requirements would look like a Sears Roebuck catalog. That seems ludicrous to us today, but in the beginning a person had to have a drinking history of at least 20 or 25 years. Otherwise it was felt that he was not thoroughly convinced.
So young people were out. Thank God we have a lot of young people in Alcoholics Anonymous today. Blacks were not permitted to come, even in the North. Eventually some were permitted to attend open meetings as observers. The attendance at meetings by women was frowned on. Even Dr. Bob was nervous about women attending AA meetings. I might mention in passing that we are very, very proud in Georgia that we gave the first woman delegate to the General Service Conference. Our first delegate in Georgia and the first woman delegate, Nelie Dee, has since gone on to the great meeting in the sky.
We also drew the line on accepting dope fiends, criminals, panhandlers, fallen women, homosexuals, and so forth. Finally, this is the way our traditions evolved, by doing everything the wrong way. That's what tradition means. Out of this turmoil there came our third tradition. Bill wrote, The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. It's significant that he did not say one has to stop drinking.
Read that tradition carefully. Have a desire to stop drinking. Of course, when you come to AA, it is advisable to stop drinking. We have some people today that haven't caught on to that yet. It was decided by our founders and their non-alcoholics advisers that our membership
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ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence, we can refuse none who wish to recover. It goes on to say that any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation. Thus was born our singleness of purpose. This singleness of purpose was very important to us in Alcoholics Anonymous. But alcoholism is a common denominator. Nothing is said in our literature about smoking funny cigarettes, taking pills, shooting up, or sniffing cocaine. In fact, the book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions and the pamphlet prompt us to throw their pills and their prescriptions away. This caused quite a stir with the staff of the hospital. In fact, they called the central office and wanted to stop the meeting. The upshot of it was that the intergroup chairperson went to the hospital and met with the staff. He said that we in AA have no opinion on outside issues and that as guests of the hospital we certainly wanted to abide by the rules of the hospital.
A solution was reached. That particular meeting was disbanded, and a few weeks later some AAs who were well-grounded in our three legacies started an AA group in that hospital and there has been no controversy since then. That was over ten years ago. Another case comes to mind of a young man that I know with several years of sobriety. He was very ill. He was taking medication that his doctor prescribed and that probably saved his life. Gossip had it that he was on pills and a great injustice was done to him. There may be doctors who overprescribe, but this can be handled by changing doctors or getting a second opinion. In any case, it is not up to us to get involved. We need not be either stupid or cruel to be an AA.
Of course there are those who medicate themselves, and this is wrong. The winners in AA believe that if they are to remain free and contented in their sobriety, they must avoid any drug that proves a threat to their sobriety. AAs stay away from the first drink one day at a time, and for many of us it is just as important to stay away from the first pill or the first cigarette or the first shot one day at a time.
Dr. Flynn will remember this. A young lady, a friend of mine, both an alcoholic and narcotic addict. She is a member of both fellowships. I talked with her last week, and she is a counselor at an A&D hospital in Atlanta. She feels that her alcoholism is different from her drug addiction and that it takes both AA and NA for her recovery. Among the people that she has seen and counseled in this hospital, she says there have emerged three types of dually addicted people. The first, with some alcohol, is the primary problem.
These are the real alcoholics that the big book talks about. They have the defects of character, the problems with family, work, personal relationships, as the alcoholic does. They have the financial difficulty and they drink compulsively against their will. In short, they are alcoholics. They become hooked on pills and drugs to sleep or stay awake and to ease the pain. They are introduced to narcotics anonymous and alcoholics anonymous at the treatment center. After they become sober, they find that they do not identify with addicts. Then they drop out of NA and continue their recovery in alcoholics anonymous.
They were alcoholics to begin with. Drugs were secondary. Then, secondly, she has observed those who drink and are truly addicted to drugs. They are introduced to NA and AA at the hospital, but they soon discover that they do not identify with the alcoholics.
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As they begin to recover, they find that alcohol is not important to them but that drugs are. They drop out of AA but continue to recover in narcotics anonymous. To them, alcohol is secondary to their main affliction, which is drug addiction. The third type is the real alcoholic with all of the problems associated with alcoholism. They are also addicted to barbiturates, amphetamines, opiates, cocaine, or what have you. They are truly alcoholics and addicts. When they are introduced to AA and NA, they find something in each fellowship and continue their recovery in both programs.
Pat says this applies to her. People with a dual addiction can be very helpful in those cases because they understand each problem and are recovering in each program. Although both problems and programs are similar, there are differences, particularly in identifying and interpretation. People with a dual problem can be very effective in working with those with a dual problem and with addicts who have no history of alcoholism.
I remember the case of one young man with whom I was working who had a severe problem with pills as well as with alcoholism, and he got into hard narcotics as well. He was a real mess, and he caused a lot of trouble at the groups that he attended. He always identified himself as an alcoholic and an addict. He vehemently said that one drug was the same as another, that he relied on his drug of choice. He brought addicts to closed meetings and was quite a problem for all of the groups that he attended. It seemed like he just tried to make people mad. If people were thinking one thing, he would think something else. He was a very obnoxious person. But he stayed sober long enough to get sober, and I think that phrase is very important. He stayed sober long enough to get sober and with much guidance and good sponsorship, he was able to distinguish between his alcoholism and his drug addiction. He is now a member of both AA and NA and is doing a good job working with those who are alcoholics and addicts.
Suppose a group had been a dammit and kicked him out. Suppose they had said, ìWe donít need you here, we donít want you, get out of here,î and it made him leave. He might never have recovered, and certainly his good influence would have been lost. That might have been his only chance at recovery. I want to talk a little bit about a young lady in California who made a presentation at the General Service Conference. She said some things that I really liked. Dr. Flynn remembers this. She was an alcoholic and an addict. She was addicted to many drugs.
She also had a severe attitude problem. She said that she came into a group that was spiritually fit enough that they did not censor her conversation or her actions. She recovered in Alcoholics Anonymous and identifies herself as an alcoholic, not as an alcoholic and addict. She says also that it does not occur to her to stick needles in her arms or to smoke marijuana and cigarettes. Perhaps here is the answer. With love and tolerance we can privately counsel these addicts.
We as individuals can do many things that AA as a group cannot do. Those who have a dual problem we can sponsor in AA. The others we can guide into NA. I want to talk a little bit about Georgia because thatís where I live and thatís what I know most about. There are over 200 meetings a week of Narcotics Anonymous in Atlanta. There are six NA clubhouses in Atlanta. Also there are NA contacts and NA groups in every town and city in Georgia and NA contacts in every section of the state.
I wouldnít hurt us as members of AA to attend some open meetings of Narcotics Anonymous
[00:55:02]
and also to carry an addict with us. In our zeal to protect AA we may drive away some alcoholic whose only contact with AA may be this one. Or we may miss an opportunity to direct some addict to NA where he or she may get the help they so desperately need. Or we may mislead some addict to believe that he or she can become a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. This would be a tragedy. There is a fine line that we have to walk. But with love and direction of God as we understand him, and with good sponsorship and counseling, we can be helpful to many. And isnít that what we are all about, that we trudge this road of happy destiny. In the words of our beloved co-founder, ìThis to the end, that our great blessings may never spoil us, and that we shall live in thankful contemplation of him who presides over us all.î Thank you, John. Now youíve heard the presentation of our panelists, and the microphone here is open. And our panelists are eager for sharing questions or comments back and forth. The first one right away.
Thank you very much. I go to AA in Minneapolis, and we took a group consciousness vote, and we decided that addicts are welcome in our AA meeting as such. That makes our AA meeting an open meeting. Now if we are members as addicts in our AA meeting, but weíre not members of AA in the world level, are we members of AA or not? Thatís my question. Youíre not going to get an answer from me. Weíre in a strange position here. For questions like that, here weíve got a panel of people outside. Weíve got two, one from Al-Anon, one from Narcotics Anonymous. John is the only member of the fellowship with considerable time. So questions like that, which you might direct to the GSO and get a response from GSO, you might not get answers here. But I would encourage anyone else in the group whoís got some experiences, let us hear what other groups would do, how other groups would react to that. The only person here, John, would you want to make a comment to that?
Well, the onlyócan you hear me? Yes. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. I had a lot of defects of character that I handled through the fourth, through about the seventh step. If drinking was the only thing that was wrong with me, then I donít think I would have had these problems. So if you haveóit doesnít say you have to stop drinking, and it doesnít say that you have to say youíre an alcoholic. If you have a desire to stop drinking, then youíre certainly welcome at any AA meeting. Thank you.
Okay. I think youíre going to have to bend over. Yeah. My name is Doug, and Iím an alcoholic. And Iím from Denver, Colorado. Iíd like to share some of my experience in this very constructive area of cooperation, but not affiliation, between our fellowships and other ones. First of all, a couple of personal items. Twice, I have gone to Al-Anon meetings and qualified as an Al-Anon because my sponsors were driving me crazy.
And I was warmly welcomed because I was following the guidelines that are suggested in the Al-Anon pamphlet called ìThe Al-Anon Focus,î which I think is something that AA could really learn from. And it brought me a lot of joy. Al-Anon meeting, that's okay, but would you please remember it's an Al-Anon meeting, not an AA meeting. It has a different focus. It's also been my privilege for the last six months
[01:00:07]
to be the service sponsor for a young man in the fellowship of Narcotics Anonymous. I am what some people think is a vanishing breed. I'm one of those pure alcoholics. That doesn't mean I'm a saint. It just means that I was born in 1939, so I didn't get around to smoking those funny little cigarettes. If I'd been born a little bit later, I'm sure I would have. Anyway, I am a pure alcoholic, and John is a pure drug addict. He is not an alcoholic. This is what he says. I cannot help him with his recovery from drug addiction because I don't have any personal experience with that. But I can help him with the Twelve Traditions, because it's my understanding that the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, and the other Twelve-Step Fellowships are pretty similar. And that's what he asked me to help him with.
Some other things that have been going on in the Denver area, in the area of cooperation but not affiliation, are these. Our central office has a night watch program, and briefly what it means is that if a drunk calls at three in the morning, there's a volunteer that will talk to him and go and see him. And on the instruction sheet for the volunteers that are doing night watch, we list the phone numbers for the tax-supported detox units.
And for about three years now, we've been listing the hotline for our friends in Narcotics Anonymous, because sometimes people ask and they want that number. It was my privilege to be a district committee member for two years in Denver, and twice our GSR meeting is a closed meeting, just like a group conscience meeting is only alcoholics, so is a district GSR meeting. But twice we voted to open up the meeting a month in advance so that we could invite people from Narcotics Anonymous to come and see how we operate and to share their experience and tell us how they were growing.
We've got a number of speakers behind you, and so we're going to have to limit the time. All right, I'll cut it short. I've been on public information calls, CPC calls, and H&I calls side by side with members of Narcotics Anonymous. The last thing I'd like to say, that if a sick Al-Anon calls the boss on Monday morning and says, Charlie's got the flu, and the truth is that Charlie is drunk, she's enabling him to die from alcoholism. And if we in Alcoholics Anonymous are into what the Big Book calls soft and mushy thinking about singleness of purpose, we are enabling our cousins in Narcotics Anonymous to remain weak. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Kevin. At the panel in New York when the talk about this problem came up, one member shared that giving talks on traditions to N.A. Group had proved very effective as a way of sharing something that alcoholics already had. Next comment. We need to have the comments fairly brief. My name is Annie. I'm coming from Paris in France. Welcome. I am an alcoholic, don't belong to Narcotics Anonymous, but as General Secretary for France, I'm very grateful that there is now groups in France for Narcotics Anonymous.
They're only starting, and I must say that whenever they want advice, I give it to them, because I share my experience and the experience of what we've had in A.A., and I think it's a great relief for me to be able to send the people who have drug problems somewhere where they can identify, because what I can't give, I've never used drugs, so I can't identify with them, but I can have a helping hand and tell them where they can find help.
Besides, I would like to add that after the meeting, I would like to see, I don't remember your name, but I would like some information for the Narcotics Anonymous in France.
[01:05:03]
They're only starting, and they need literature, and I think I would like to ask a few questions, but that would be too long. Very good. Thank you very much. At lunch today, Barbara introduced me to another member of Narcotics Anonymous who is traveling to London tomorrow for a World Service meeting on Narcotics Anonymous. George, would you stand up so that people can see you? Good to have this fellow here.
My name is Nellie. I'm a compulsive overeater. I'm from Norman, Oklahoma. I don't know how many of you know about Overeaters Anonymous. We use the A.A. program substituting the words food and compulsive overeater for alcohol and alcoholism. And I just want to express my gratitude to all of you for keeping A.A. alive so that those of us whose drug of choice is food can work your program. It's a wonderful program of recovery, and I thank you.
Hi, my name is Sheila, and I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Sheila. Unfortunately, I was born in the 50s, so I'm an addict, too. I have a question because, as a matter of fact, I'm from North New Jersey. I've been going to meetings lately, A.A. meetings, in the New York area, and they call them duly addictive meetings. I do a lot of service work in both the fellowships, A.A. and N.A., and I know that the traditions are non-negotiable, and I respect them wherever I am.
However, I lack courage. I don't have the courage to say, this is an A.A. meeting or this is an N.A. meeting. How do you deal with the situation? Also, another question is on special interest groups, such as gays, lesbians, women, men. In the other fellowship, in N.A., we've been having a little problem with that, quote-unquote. People feel as though women shouldn't be covering their own meetings or men shouldn't be covering or gays or whatever.
Help, please. Does the panel have any response to those questions? I'm John Langston, alcoholic. It goes back to our tradition. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking. Alcoholics Anonymous, of course, is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength, and hope. A lot of the things that I did caused by alcohol, I relate in my story because it's part of me.
I don't like the phrase, dual addicted meetings. I don't like the phrase, drug of choice. I don't like the phrase, drug of choice and substance abuse and some of these things. Alcoholism is a disease. I have the disease. I'm recovering from the disease of alcoholism. The other things that I did were related to my alcoholism. Does that answer your question? I guess you drift. Yeah, thank you. John shares his concern, too.
My name is Liz and I'm an alcoholic. I'm also an addict and a member of Narcotics Anonymous. I just want to say thank you to Alcoholics Anonymous for all that they've given our program. I also just want to say to Bob that N.A. is alive and well in Nova Scotia with the love and support of a lot of A.A. members and a lot of tolerance. It's really going well. I just want to say hi to everyone else here who's a member of N.A.
Thank you. My name is Ed Natlin. I'm definitely an alcoholic and I'm a member of the Little River Group in Miami, Florida. I have a question. Like the first guy that talked, I also was born in 1939 and I'm also a part of an endangered species. I never took drugs. So I know nothing about drug addiction. But I've been sober for eight years in Alcoholics Anonymous. And most of the people that I sponsor today are duly addicted and I don't really see two cents' worth of difference between them.
And I agree with everything that was said
[01:10:02]
from the podium about being an alcoholic except for one thing. The last gentleman who spoke said that, or second, said that a pure alcoholic can't really help an addict. I would like to ask the man in the middle about that question. See, I can't tell people to go to Narcotics Anonymous if I've never been there. I don't know what I'm telling them to, you know, what to do. I don't believe I said that a…
No, the man in the middle. Just a minute. I want to clear this up. I don't think I said that an alcoholic could not help a drug addict. What we do as individuals is different from what an AA group can do. I help a lot of addicts. I counsel a lot of people and have other things besides addiction. And I think that our higher power, if we're close to him, would want us to do this. I do not like people who say, kick the drug addicts out.
I don't think that's right. Thank you. Bob, you want to comment to that? Not really. I'm not sure what pure is. And, uh… And I know he said real. But, uh, you know, in our preamble, you know, we just state how important the identification is. One addict helping another addict. As the same thing applies in Alcoholics Anonymous, as one alcoholic helps another alcoholic. The way that I've been explained to me in the past is that the alcoholic can share the experience of recovery.
And that experience of recovery is not unique to alcoholism. Can't experience the, uh, share the experience of the addiction of the shooting, although all of that goes with it. But he can share the experience of the recovery. Now, I'd like to ask Norma one question. Norma, what about Al-Anon? Are they experiencing any kind of difficulty with the spouses, families of addicted people coming to Al-Anon?
Yes, I think we're sharing exactly the same kind of problems that some of you are. Again, our traditions clearly state the only requirement for membership is that there be a problem of alcoholism in a friend or relative. So that, as far as membership in Al-Anon is concerned, it spells out very clearly. Our open meetings, like any open meeting, may be attended by anyone. The thing that we have to be careful about in our group is that we have to be careful about it.
And our groups are divided on it. I mean, some of our groups will say, everybody, come on in. Whatever your problem, we'll help you. And others stick very closely to the traditions. But the thing that we watch very carefully is that the focus always be on us and not on the other person in our life, the alcoholic or the addict. But it is, I think in our area, particularly there are more Nar-Anon, is that meetings?
I have attended a couple. I think more people are going now to Nar-Anon. But it has been a problem. Hi, I'm Jim. I'm an alcoholic and an addict. Hi. I go to NA and I go to AA. And I have to, I speak sometimes. And we have in our area a lot of discussion groups and usually the chairperson qualifies briefly, maybe 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. You know, we don't follow directions. And then we have a discussion. Now, my question is when myself, when I qualify, should I just mention I had a problem with drugs also? Should I maybe list some of the drugs I took? Should I sort of say half and half?
Or what should I do with my my drug addiction background when I'm qualifying at an AA meeting? I've never heard a rule, or there are no rules as you know, and I think I've heard experiences on both sides where some people say that it would be very important for you to add in some of the drug identification. John, do you have a comment?
[01:15:07]
I'm an alcoholic, and my name is John, and when I tell my story, I mention the defects of character that I had. I was a thief, I stole, I was a liar. If I leave these things out, then I'm not telling it like it is. I don't think I was addicted to barbiturates and amphetamines, although I took them for a specific reason. When I got sober, I didn't need them. But if they had been, I had been addicted to them, then that would be part of me, and I would release that as being a part of my affliction. But primarily, I am an alcoholic. Not a pure alcoholic, but what the big book calls a real alcoholic. That's me. And whatever else I had, I talk about that, too. Some things I don't talk about.
Thank you, John. Particularly of my wife, Fred. Thank you very much. Thank you. I want to stand up straight. My name is Runar, and I'm an alcoholic, and I come from Iceland. I'd like to share with you a little how we are doing it in Iceland. I, myself, I was addicted to alcohol and to pills, so make me cross-addicted to whatever you like. It doesn't matter to me. I am also a member of Al-Anon. I have a son who is now 22 years old, and he's an alcoholic. Incidentally, he was born in 1963, and he's a pure alcoholic.
So, really, there is no rule in my mind. And I like to keep it simple, and I don't like to take the drug alcohol away from other drugs. It's just as potent and dangerous as any other drug. That's my belief. Okay, how we do it in Iceland. We are very strong in AA, and I will be forever grateful to AA because that saved my life. And we have a big organization, and we have rehabilitation centers, and detox, and whatever. And we, after we have AA meetings, and in that meetings you find alcoholics, pure alcoholics, and cross-addicted alcoholics, and people who use only pills, and people who use narcotics, whatever, or smoke. Well, this works fine for us, but I can clearly understand the problem of identification and everything. And I really want now to express my best wishes to NA. And actually, my belief is that in maybe 50 years' time from now on, that we will not hold a meeting like Alcoholics and AA Convention.
We will just hold a meeting of, let's say, Association of Anonymous. Same thing. In 100 years' time, I think that will be the trend. Thank you. Thank you. We have seven people there at the mic, so I'd ask that no one else stand up in that line, and that we make the comments as short as possible. My name is John. I'm an alcoholic from Cincinnati. Don't clap. You know, I really like to keep things simple, and real simply put, alcohol is a drug. I'm an addictive personality. I'm addicted to everything. I'm addicted to cigarettes. I'm addicted to people. I'm addicted to food just as well. I think that we're going through a change. You know, a lot of you are too old to understand the psychedelic era in which I grew up in too. I'm 27 and I did LSD. But you see, I'm an alcoholic. I was born and raised in an alcoholic household, and that's where I come from. Simply put, alcohol is
[01:20:06]
a drug. And if we're going to try and say whether or not people can be duly addicted or whatever the term might be, they should still have the opportunities to recover that we have had in the program. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, my name is Ross. I'm an alcoholic from Melbourne, Australia. Welcome, Ross. Hi. I'm also one of the founding members of Narcotics Anonymous in Melbourne. About nine years ago we started. And there were many nights when I sat there myself with the white book of N.A. and no one came. And then out of the blue would come young A.A. members. So we really owed our start in N.A. to the A.A. members who came and just kept it going. And for a long time I had this feeling that I was being pulled apart, you know, this sort of schizophrenia or the struggle for the soul. And in fact, when I came to New Orleans in 1980, I was fortunate enough to visit Jimmy K in California, and I went to the home there where, you know, as Bob said, the little box they sort of worked out of, the little room there. And all the time I had this unspoken question, what am I? And all the time I got this feeling that, look, you just be comfortable with what you are, you know. And I came home to Australia and I felt comfortable. I was a person who was greedy. I needed a cocktail of things to get off on and I needed a cocktail of things to stay off what I was on. And therefore I go freely where I need to go. I don't go with a thimble full. I've been taught in A.A.
to go to the well with a bucket if you want to and get a bucket full, you know. And I use all the program. I go to Overeaters Anonymous because I discovered I had a problem with that. I'm not a joiner. I'm not a willing person to go to all these, you know, self-help organizations. I go because I have to. And I'd just like to say, I get off my chest, the only negative, we've got a lot of cooperation in Melbourne, Australia between the fellowships now. And the biggest solution for A.A. if there's a problem with drug addicts is, of course, a healthy Narcotics Anonymous. That stands to reason. But at first, my first Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor was a man who sponsored me for five years. Then he finally gave me the sack for reading the fifth chapter at a hospital meeting one night. He said that was against their group conscience. Well, that apparently was the case. I wasn't told.
But he said to me once that he didn't think any of these other self-help groups would prosper or thrive because the 12 steps were made only for alcoholics and that the other ones weren't going anywhere. Well, I'm glad to say that there are a lot of groups in Narcotics Anonymous and a lot of groups of Al-Anon and a lot of groups of Overeaters Anonymous or Parents Anonymous or whatever it is, that the capacity for good, as Lois said this morning, is immense from these fellowships. Thanks very much.
Thank you. My name is Warren and I'm an alcoholic from Houston, Texas. And I just have a little question. I feel the speakers were very clear and I've enjoyed very much also listening to the other listeners. My comment is I have been for years the secretary of a hospital group and now very happily a lady took it over. And, of course, we would have patients come in sometimes who, I'm not anything, I'm not an alcoholic or a drug addict, but the doctor thinks they are, the family, the judge, the priest, and so on. And I used to make the quip, this is an open meeting, this is an open hospital meeting, that the only requirement for attendance is not to be judged clinically dead two weeks in a row. And as you can well imagine, almost all of these people who said they were nothing later on agreed with their doctors. And so I felt that the speaker, the last speaker I did here was very clear and I didn't catch all of this, I'm sorry. And my question is just at the end, the first two are obvious.
It's an open meeting and I always say to people, yeah, if you're an alcoholic, you think you're an alcoholic, go to AA. And then, of course, if you really believe and you're addicted to both, say alcohol and other substances, and we all know, most of us know, people who are very successful at going to both AA and NA. And I say you can have 80-20, 80-50-50, and I know most of us here probably know people who are addicted to alcohol and other substances and do both, and you introduce them to those people. My question, sort of at the end here, that when I meet someone who is almost certainly addicted to drugs, feels that he is, and make a real simple case here, never drank alcohol, just never got onto alcohol, oh, he's a heroin addict and he's in the hospital, what I say, and I hope I'm right, but I believe you sort
[01:25:03]
of said this, just to clarify for us, I would say, well, AA open meetings, everyone can come. We have nursing students and doctors, medical students, and you can always speak in a tasteful way and bring in the commonalities. You're a very welcome visitor and probably you will go to NA in the long run, but you're always welcome at an open AA meeting, but make the point that you are not, as you've never drank and don't have a desire to stop drinking, you're a visitor, or whatever, a person coming who's not a member of AA, and that seems a useful distinction, that where the person was not an alcoholic, and say it's an extreme case, never drank, just a drug addict, but at an open meeting you're certainly welcome and can benefit and ultimately get where you need to be, but you would not or would never be a member of the group, and that's kind of the question. I'm very grateful to be here.
Thank you. I think the answer is yes, isn't it, John? The answer is yes. That's exactly the way it should be. Right, that's exactly the way it should be. My name is Carl, I'm an alcoholic and a drug addict, and a compulsive overeater from Hong Kong. Alcoholics Anonymous in Hong Kong has existed for 15 years, and we were the first self-help group, as in most parts of the world, and I think that wherever you start a self-help group, and mostly Alcoholics Anonymous is the first, you'll find that you get people who are multiple addicted, like myself. Our solution to this problem of people coming into Alcoholics Anonymous who really aren't alcoholics is to open up the meeting. We have at this moment 120 members of Alcoholics Anonymous, and then we had some people coming in who were compulsive overeaters, and not that they were strong enough, we allowed them to use our meetings and just made them open. At this moment we have about 20 members of Overeaters Anonymous, and recently we just decided to start another meeting, you know, for addicts. Unfortunately in Hong Kong it's not feasible to have an Alcoholics Anonymous because of, I think, the police, so we started something else called Tranks, people addicted to tranquilizers, and we welcome everybody else there, so everybody who has any other problem is welcome at our meetings.
Thank you very much. Hello, my name is Marie, and I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Marie. And I'm from Old Greenwich, Connecticut, and I have a question for Norma. In Connecticut, which you may know, we give our meeting schedules free to all the groups, and it's financed through our Connecticut State Service Committee. And in the Connecticut meeting schedule, we reprint the Al-Anon meeting schedule, which now makes up about 20% of our meeting list and 20% of our budget. There are some of us who feel that this is in violation of AA's sixth tradition of endorsing and so forth. There are others who feel just as strongly that we should leave it in there because it does help to carry the message to alcoholics.
I wondered what your thoughts were about this practice. I know it's done in other states too. This is not just a list of answering services. This is an actual reprint of the Al-Anon meeting list, and Al-Anon in Connecticut is quite well established and can afford to print their own meeting list and do. And I wonder what your feelings were on that. I would think that Al-Anon should be printing their own. I mean, it is an extra expense for you. I'm not going to tell you how to interpret the tradition, but it does seem at least to apply affiliation, endorsement. We, to my knowledge, Al-Anon does not do that any place. And I would think they should be doing their own. They are doing their own.
This is a reprint. I mean, that's up to your structure and how you choose to interpret it. But I would say that kind of implies affiliation, endorsement. Thank you. I would question it. Good afternoon. I would like to salute the people on the panel first. I'm from Montreal. My name is Norman G. I like to see new people. I hear lots of things. I mean, I know a report. Then, you know what I mean, I know, I know AA for 23 years, and I mean, I can say it's a little bit slip after 18 years, I start again.
I learned something about AA for all over, you know what I mean, I'm, I'm a French-Canadian, but I would like to speak English, and I would like to everybody.
[01:30:05]
I learned in the AA to love me, that's what I, first thing first, I love me. See, I remember, it's not a message, but if I return 20 years ago, I was born in 1921, if somebody would like to know my age, I'm going to have 64 presumed now. That means I meet AA in 1956. English meeting, French meeting, and I meet lots of people. First, I would like to know, and I would like to explain, I'm alcoholic, liquid, see, alcohol.
But I meet lots of people with narcotic, Valium and everything, you know what I mean. But I, I like these people, I love these people too. You know what I mean, I love these people. I like to chicken with everybody, but probably not that. That's why I learned AA in Montreal and all over the place. And I continue, I give myself, I like it, I help anybody, I can change everything I can, but for myself, I talk for myself.