The next voice is that of Ernest McKenzie, recorded at the Tudor Group, April 6, 1952. And getting sober, you know, when you have a pattern in your life for many, many years of drinking, to make a change oftentimes is a gradual thing. That is one of the basic concepts of AA, that we live for 24 hours a day. We make a new substitution of our thinking. I used to say, or I said one night in a meeting, as a matter of fact, I said you have to stay sober even if life stinks. And a woman came up to me after the meeting and she said to me, Ernest, I thought your talk was very good, but that point about life stinking, I think life in sobriety can be stimulating. And I said, well, I'm thoroughly aware of the fact that life in sobriety is stimulating, and certainly can be. But I know that there are certain times when that poor devil sitting out there is in a period of depression, and even everything could be all right, but you couldn't get to him. And it's at that time when many alcoholics, not for any particular reason other than ordinary boredom, and a feeling of general futility, and a general lack in their own life, that they want to go over into that dream world and live in that realm of fantasy, and take, as Muriel said, that powder and relax and seek oblivion from life. Now, Bill Wilson came to see me. I had known him prior to AA. And he came to see me in towns in 1935. I was in towns 55 times. Just a few trips. He came to see me in 1935, and he said, now, we have this situation, and so forth and so on. He brought a guy with him with a Blackcomber hat on. And I thought he was a promoter. I've been in Wall Street all my life, and I've known many promoters, but I was very low. And when you're low, you'll agree to anything. So I thought to myself, well, I'll just listen and see what they have to say. It's probably something to sell. But I'm down now, but I'll get out. I'll sober up. And when I get out, I'll tell them to go to hell. I'll agree. So all right, and this…