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Source: DICOBE-00545 – Karin A – CETA GLEN CONF – 1980-05-03.mp3 File: dicobe-00545-karin-a-ceta-glen-conf-1980-05-03.mp3 Duration: 00:58:08
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There's something in our ODAT visit that I like real well, and it's on page 343. Each day is a new adventure in Al-Anon, pointing the way to an ever better way to live. And yesterday, when I met our speaker, Karen, I knew what my adventure today was going to be, because I met a beautiful person with a beautiful smile, and there I give you Karen. Hello, everyone. I am Karen, and I'm a very grateful member of Al-Anon, and I qualify immensely.
And thank you for asking us to come here. I can't tell you my… I can hardly talk about it. I'm so glad to be here, and it's so wonderful to meet you all. I hear I have met a few new AA's, fairly new ones, and when there's some new AA's that look married, they're often some new Al-Anon's, and sometimes we have new Al-Anon's with partners still out there drinking. And you come in here trying to find a way to sober them up, and, you know, I think that's one of the finest motivations to come into Al-Anon.
It won't work, but you're here, and you'll find some answers, you know. But what else are you going to do? You're going to try to find a way to straighten this fellow out, you know, or this partner of yours. And you come in here, and then you're going to be told that you're sick. Maybe sicker than the alcoholic, and they'll give you a burn if it's me. But I've been around a little while, and I'll tell you, it's very healthy if you're sick, because I would worry about you if you came in here serene and happy after all that nonsense.
That's all right. And we stay newcomers in Al-Anon a little longer than you stay newcomers in AA. We give ourselves six months at least to get a hold of this thing, and some of us take it much longer, and you learn more and more as you stay in. For some reason, I'm nervous this morning. I'm not usually. You know, you AA's think it's hard to come in and start working these steps after you've hit bottom.
You ought to try coming in perfect, you know. But it's not easy. So you need a little time. You have to sort of start off up here, and then you have to go down and backwards. As you can hear, I'm not from America. I'm an American by choice. I talk about funny accents. I don't know. I've heard some funny accents here. But I was born and raised in Sweden, in Lapland, as a matter of fact. If any of you know where that is, I was born 200 miles north of the Arctic Circle.
And my father built a railroad up there, and that was how he came to be up there. And my father drank, and my parents had parties on weekends. They all worked together, and they played together, these people. And there was dancing and singing and drinking in our home. And I had a lot of trouble with it. I had trouble with people from a very early age. If anybody sang too loud or laughed too loud, I was liable to tell them about it.
And I wasn't any bigger than that. So you can imagine, I got sent to my room a lot. I spent a lot of time in my room. I still get sent to my room sometimes. But my father was very good to us. He was a big man. Ivan, you remind me so much of my dad. I know we aren't, you know, he would be much older than you. But as I remember my father, and he was a very big man, and he was fun, and he held us up, and he danced with us, and he had a big Harley Davidson motorcycle and a sidecar, and he'd take us on rides with him.
I had one older sister, or had an older sister.
[00:05:00]
And he taught us how to ski and get along up there. And I think he might have wanted boys, the way he brought us up. And he gave us sort of an independence, and that sat very well with me, because my mother used to say, Karen doesn't walk, she marches, you know. And that was pretty much how I was. And when I was 10 years old, we moved to Stockholm, and my father was originally from there. So now he took my sister in hand and showed us the city, you know.
And he loved that city, and he knew it very well. And he gave us the chance to see it, and I traveled everywhere on my own. I learned to make my transfers on buses and streetcars, and I was all over the place looking at things and learning about things. But my father's drinking increased down there. And I forgot to tell you, even when I was very small, when my father drank, I forgot all the good things.
And I had no use for him when he drank. And I had such an aversion to him. I couldn't even look at him, and I didn't want him to talk to me or touch me. And I just hated him when he was drunk. And he couldn't have been that drunk. He was a young man then, you know. But I couldn't stand him. And I forgot all the good parts. And in Stockholm, then when his drinking increased, I really had problems with it.
I was making some friends in school and around the neighborhood. And when my father would come home, and my father didn't drive a car, he'd arrive in a taxi. And being big like Ivan, and he had an overcoat from here to here. You know, you could see him for miles in the snow, you know. And a big black hat. And he'd be wheeling and hanging on to the little cab driver. And I just knew everybody saw what my father looked like.
And my mom would say, please don't say anything. Just go to your room or go to a friend's house. And don't say anything. And, you know, he'd come in and he would be ready to go to bed. You know, he was not a fighting drunk. He was just too for the day then. And do you think I could let him? If I had to prop him up, I was going to tell him how I felt. So I got into some pretty tight corners, by the way.
Well, of course, I was going to find an escape or a kid's duel. And it was first books. And then I got old enough so I could go to the movies. The grown-up movies. I lied my way into a lot of places, as a matter of fact. But I loved American movies. And that's where I spent all my spare cash and my spare time. And that was fine. When I was 15 years old, I quit school. And I had to quit school because my father was drinking.
That's what I believed. And that's what I believed all the way into Ireland, when I tell you. I was convinced of that. And I had to realize that I quit school because I wanted to quit school. I came home one day and said, I quit school and I got a job. And I had got some grandiose ideas in those movies I wanted to dress like. And I'm pretty safe here, I think. I wanted to dress like Gloria de Haven and Jim Allison did.
I tell that in some meetings down in California. And the kids sit there and say, so what? Who are they? That's what I wanted to do. And of course, I found out I couldn't do anything. But I could dress like they did. So I went back to school. But I had jobs at night in the movie theater. God, I knew every one of them. So that was easy. And I loved that. I loved having a little money for my own. And that was really the first peace and quiet my family had had for some time.
Because I was out of the picture. Because my mother and my sister didn't react the same way to my father's drinking. They didn't carry on the way I did. They, well, let him go to bed, you know. But I was in such a stew over that. And so this is what I did. I didn't date very much. I wasn't asked very much. Because I had these grandiose ideas. And my little boyfriends, none of them looked like the American boys did on the screen, you know.
So, the summer I was 17, I was working in an office in Stockholm. And one of our southern salesmen came up to work there. And he was gorgeous. And he was 24 years old, which seemed very old to me. And he was well-dressed and well-mannered.
[00:10:03]
And he had a fine name. And, oh, everything was just perfect about this fellow. And he was dark-eyed and dark-haired. And he looked sort of dangerous, as a matter of fact. And my ears went right up. And all the ladies in the office wanted to date this guy. And for some reason, he liked me. And we went out to lunch together. And so on. And after a couple of months, he asked me for a date. And so I was going out with this gorgeous guy.
And we have a southern accent in Sweden, too. And I'd never really met anyone from that part of the country. And as we were going out, I had trouble understanding what he said. I really had to pay attention. And a couple of times I said yes, when I should have said no. But, uh, I was so raring to get into a little trouble by then. Well, here it was. And, you know, the most marvelous part of this guy was he didn't drink.
Didn't seem to be interested in that. And, of course, I had promised myself, you know, that when I got somebody, it would be somebody that didn't drink. And I would just tell my father that. So here I am. And a year later, we were engaged. A year after that, we were married. And a year after that, John came to me and said, how would you like to go to America? And when he said we were going to Los Angeles, as far as I was concerned, we were going to be in Ben Johnson's backyard, you see.
And I was on my way. And it was all going according to my script. Everything I had dreamed of was coming true. So we came out here. And we were busy becoming American. We loved it from the very start. And people were so good to us. And John worked. And I was pregnant. And we had a little girl after a year out here. And after two years out here, we should go back to Sweden for a visit and show this little child.
And in those days, you flew across the country and you went by ship from New York. And we were visiting friends there. And they said, now when you go across, instead of taking dromamine for sea sickness, why don't you drink scotch? And when I heard that, you see, I really did know about heavy drinking, not only with my own father, but all those men drank heavily. And we had a woman that came regularly to our house to get out of violence with her two little boys.
So I knew what drinking could do. And I felt I was justified in hating it. And yet, when this happened, I don't know what kind of arrogance goes into a person doing what I did, but when they said that, I said, what a marvelous idea. And I couldn't explain to you why I did that. I was 22 years old, and I had this little girl, and we were going on a vacation, and I guess I felt it was my time. And I know this is not on me, but you'll have to bear with me a while.
And I drank that scotch, and I loved it. And I tell you, it did everything for me that I hear it does for you, A.A. It made me pretty, and I could dance like mad, and I was witty and fun and loved it. And we drank all the way across, and we drank when we came home. People were throwing pouches for us. And when we came back to the States, Johnny had one of those jobs within an expense account. And now it really began.
And we were out, and we entertained people at home and took them out, and they took us out, and we were out dancing and eating well. And I just thought I was hot stuff, you know. But it seems when you drink a lot, you get pregnant a lot, because it happened to me. Pretty soon we had four youngsters. And by this time we had moved down to the beach, and we'd be on the beach during the day with the kids, and then we'd be partying on the weekends especially.
And pretty soon I started to have second thoughts about this kind of life, because we were always going out and having babysitters in for the children, and we were out partying. So one afternoon I sat John down, and I said, You know, this isn't any good. This is not a good life we're leading. It's not good for us, and it's not good for the children, and we're going to give up drinking, I said. And I thought that was the end of it.
And Johnny asked me, Why don't you run along? Why don't you run along? That's not what he said, but it meant that.
[00:15:04]
So, of course, now the war was on. Now, we still partied and we still went out, but now I couldn't enjoy myself anymore. Now I had to watch what he was doing, of course, and I had to say all those dumb things. Don't you think you've had enough? And how many have you had? And he never had more than two, as far as I could tell, what he said. And I, don't you think I should drive the car? I never did get to drive the car home.
Well, of course, now this became my full-time job, to check on this fellow and to see to it, you know, I don't know why, what I thought I was doing, but because I had little experience of that before, there was no way to stop him. And I knew it, in a sense, and I projected naturally because I knew where he would end up one day. I felt, and I really made it my main aim in life to get him to stop. And he was busy. I mean, he was in the drinking business and he wouldn't be bothered with me.
And in fact, he was in the building business and he told me, and I know all of you other guys, whatever business you're in, he said, how do you think I would sell any windows if I didn't drink? You know, and stuff like that. He's still in the window business. Well, so we had, we moved to Anaheim. It's a little town, a little inland from the beach. And we bought a new home there and there were other people moving in around us.
We were all coming into new homes. And when we were at the beach, people were a little sort of bohemian and like that, you know. And then I was like that too. I was whatever you were. And now we were coming to Anaheim and it seemed like these women that were moving in around us had grown up there and gone away to school and married and had children and now they were moving back. And they were sort of very American and civic-minded and good people, you know, and going to church and taking their children to the proper scouts and all that.
And so now we were going to be that way. You know, I said, no, now we must try to be that way. And that's very hard to do when you have a constant grudge, you know, to carry on this thing. And Johnny just kind of didn't catch on all the time what I wanted to do. And he loved people and John and I had, we had our fight. We were always having fights and making up and starting over in that order, you know.
But we always had some silent days in between. And I think Johnny had a hard time taking that when I gave him that silent treatment because he loved people and he loved to talk to people and be friendly and tell them stories. And we'd get out there with his lawnmower and his scotch, you know, and he'd wave people over to come and have drinks with him. And they'd come and, you know, then they had things to do.
But he stayed and they changed places, you know. And I had my post at the kitchen curtains, the kitchen window, you know, watching how he was embarrassing me. And that's how we spent our weekend. He was out there and I was in here. And I'd tell the kids, you know, get yourself some peanut butter and jam and I'd be there watching. They're very, you know, not much imagination. And the last people who gave up on him were the watchtower people.
They used to come on Saturdays and they'd come with their little booklets, you know, and they would discuss the end of the world, I guess, with him. But they were, I think they were ordered to go around our house because they stopped us. We had to laugh about this thing. You know, it wasn't all funny. Then I started to be embarrassed, you know, about our lives. And I didn't want those women to know how we really lived.
And once in a while it would sort of build up and then I'd pick on one of the women and I'd share with her and tell her, share, tell her how it was at our house, you know, and what he did now. And then in a day or so I'd start feeling disloyal to John. And then the next day I'd think, well, now she knows about us.
[00:20:03]
And before I knew it I was resenting her and I wasn't going to talk to her anymore, you know. And then so I cut myself off from one end to the other this way. And I got in a pretty bad way because, and it seems to me, I don't know if this is just my opinion, I'll guess, that my sickness, family sickness of alcoholism was so bad when I was a younger teenager with my father. And then when I met John and all that, it sort of went underground.
And then when John, when I began to realize that John was really serious about his drinking, it just sort of, I picked up where I'd left off. So I got really crazy really quick. And I really did. Some days the only way I could function was on anger. That was the only way I could get the job done in the house, you know, get kids off to school and get the house picked up and so on. But on the days when I let myself really understand what a pickle we were in and how sad our life had become, I couldn't function.
I just sat and I just wanted to pull the covers over my head. And because we had so much, you know. Here, you Americans don't really, can never experience this, but to be a person in a foreign country, and I don't care what all these liberals say about this country, the rest of the world thinks this is the place, believe me. And here, God, I'm getting political. I better. What I meant to say, when you're out there and you have a dream of going to America and you have your papers and you're going to get to go there, can you imagine what a marvelous thing?
And we had had that. And people had been so good to us, you know. We'd come to this beautiful California and here it was. It was running through our fingers. And I got very sad and very quiet and very isolated. And I think even John could see I was in trouble. And so, again, we made up and we started over. And he wasn't going to drink anymore. And we were even going to go on a little trip. We hadn't been away for a few years.
And we were going to take the children. We were all going out to Palm Springs. And it was fine. We had fixed it. And we were going to be all right, you know. And three weeks went by until we should go. And we got to buy some new outfits for the kids and me. And, oh, it was going to be glorious, you know, this vacation. And on the morning we should leave for Palm Springs. When I got up, Johnny was drunk.
He had started to drink during the night. And, God, you know, my whole world collapsed right then. And it had happened before. I don't know what was different this time. But we went anyway. I know for a moment we shouldn't go now with all these kids driving and him drunk. But we went anyway. And it was a disaster. It was bad. You couldn't send the children out to play exactly. And we were in two little rooms.
And it was very bad. And I can't take my life. I think I arrived at a point where we have a piece of literature that talks just about this. I finally believed that he didn't love me. That it was something in me. That maybe he had loved someone else and he regretted having married me. And he didn't know how to tell me. And this is what I figured out finally. And I thought, well, he'll always be two of the children I'm taking care of.
But there's something with me that makes him drink. And I thought the same I had done with my father. So, well, of course I got very sick, luckily. And I came home. And it was soon after that our minister came to call on us at our house. And I wasn't home. And I wasn't going to tell him either. I didn't want anyone to know about us. But then he was so kind and somehow I began to talk. And I told him about my father's drinking.
I had this dog, me, and now John's drinking. And he suggested I come and talk to him once a week for an hour. And he said, if you can get Johnny to come, he's welcome to come too. He can have another hour. And when he said that I thought, oh, he won't do that. He's a selfish.
[00:25:01]
But then the next day I told John about it. And John said, of course I'll go. How kind of him. And that surprised me. That really surprised me. Well, now we were both getting some help. And it was a help, I tell you. Nothing really changed except we didn't fight so much. I think it helped to talk things out with this man. But it was over a year later one morning. And that was toward the end of that counseling with him.
I didn't know it then. But as I walked home from his study, I don't know what he said to me that day. But I do think John is an alcoholic. And if he is, he has three ways to go. He'll either go insane from it or he'll die from it. And that's just how I put it. Or he'll go for help. But I never even heard the last part. I only heard the two first things. And I knew John was an alcoholic. There's no secret to me.
I didn't fear the word or was ashamed of the word as such. I found a comfort in thinking of him as an alcoholic. But somehow when he said it, it meant more. It was more serious when the minister said it. And as I walked home that morning, I can still remember the feeling I had because I was completely deflated. And I think something really happened to me there. And I didn't understand it then. And I know now from being in Illinois many years that it's almost necessary that this happen to us because I finally realized that I wasn't going to be able to shake this fellow up.
Nothing I said or did was going to fix it. And I even understood that the minister wasn't going to be able to do it. And I had thought he would be. But now I understood he couldn't do anything either. But I think I even understood that Johnny was helpless because I had seen him try seven times to quit. And he started again. It would go a few days and that time three weeks. And he was back to it again.
And I don't know. I really felt low. And I began to think of John as dead. I started to think of women who were widows, who brought their children up alone. And I thought women, men in the service, they could do it. And I really gave up on his ever being sober. At that time I was called back to Sweden. My father was ill. And tickets were sent for me and my little boy to go home. We had three girls and a boy.
And the boy was five years older. And that kind of threw me. But the minister said you must go and you get someone to look after them. And they'd be fine with John. So I went to Sweden for six weeks. And it made one thing clear for me. I had thought at times if things get too bad I would move back to Sweden and raise my family there. But I knew I had been out in the States too long. And I missed John and I worried about him.
And it mocks you back. You get a little space away from that actual drinking. And I decided when I got back to the States I would find a part-time job. The little boy would be in first grade. And I'd have a few hours. So I got back to Los Angeles after six weeks. And I remember that morning very well. I was at Los Angeles International. And it was a gray overcast morning. And Johnny was there in gray slacks and a gray shirt and a gray face.
And he was shaking. And, oh, I was right back into it again. But I didn't go out and find a job. I just delight in telling you this story because the man I worked for was our secretary to an insurance agent. And he was a very successful agent. And he was sort of a pillar of his community, a fullerton. And he was very sharp. He was sailing in the morning in his business suit. And he was so spick and span and good looking.
And I really thought he was hot stuff. And John used to look like that, you know. And he didn't anymore. And I couldn't help but tell John how Mr. Stout, oh, he's such a fine man. Well, John has been Mr. Stout's sponsor the last seven years. They called from central office one day and asked Johnny to go out to one of those honors forums. And I asked Johnny to go out to one of those honor farms, and there was Mrs. Dodd.
[00:30:00]
Johnny said, there's some justice after all. Well, I say we weren't fighting very much anymore, and we weren't. We were really living in a very cold place in our home. In the mornings, we'd have a few silly words in the car while John drove me to work. And by the time he picked me up, he came straight from the bar, and we didn't say very much. He said, we used to stop at the liquor store on the way home and pick up the evening supply.
And it was there in the parking lot one night, he said to me, you see that fellow over there with the brown paper bag? And I said, yes. And he said, he is an alcoholic. I said, how do you know that? And he said, every day when I come in here, he's here. Well, we did have one more big fight, and it was in the fall. And Caroline, our oldest girl, was 13 in junior high. And they were going to have open houses at school.
And Johnny was one that he always insisted on going to all these family things at school, you know, PTA meetings and open houses and stuff like that. And he'd be weaving, you know, getting closer to the teachers, you know, and they'd go like this. Oh, he was a nuisance to have along. And I was tense and nervous the whole time. You never knew what he was going to say anyway, and you still never know what he's going to say.
And somebody has one like me, like mine. And anyway, so I said, why don't you stay home tonight? Well, of course, then he had to go, you know. And I did that, and then Caroline spoke up, and she said, I don't want you to come. You're a drunk, and you embarrass me. And Johnny slapped her. And we were all sort of surprised, because John was not a mean drunk. Oh, he was mean, saying things, but not to hit anyone.
And he surprised me and Caroline and him. And it just broke me. I was right back being their age, you know. And I thought, my God, this is my first teenager, you know, and I can see it coming. I had three more coming along. And you see, I hadn't been as lucky as Caroline. I didn't always get out of the way fast enough with my father. So I knew what was, I mean, I could see it. I felt I knew what was coming.
And God, to me, that was sort of, this is it, you know, no more. I am not going to live like this and have this coming. And in a couple of days when we could talk again, I said, you know, unless you go and look into that alcoholic's numbers that the minister talked about, this is it. You have to move out. And a couple of weeks went by. Nothing was said. Nothing was done. He didn't move out, and I didn't stay anymore.
We say in Al-Anon, don't make threats. You don't intend to carry out. Well, I knew nothing of that, and I don't know. Why not? Say whatever comes into your head. You know, it might work. I mean, all you can do is you broke in an Al-Anon room. I don't know. I'm useless. Do anything you can. You have my permission. Anyway, so a couple of weeks went by, and nothing had changed. And then one night Johnny came to me and said, you know, I'm not drinking anymore.
He said, you're not? No. He said, I've been going to Alcoholics Anonymous, and I don't think I have to drink again. You know, I didn't know this. I didn't know. Can you imagine? Here we are. I mean, I was a little over 30. We were young people then, bringing up young children. How little we had to do with each other. What a climate to bring up a family in, you know. And so he started to tell me about the Al-Anon Club in Anaheim, and about Charlie.
And he said, you know, this is Charlie. Guess what he said. And guess what he told me. And this is what Charlie said. Every day he'd come home with something new that Charlie said. And I said, well, bring him home. I wanted to see him. My God, I want to see what that guy had that I didn't have. I'd said some of those things, too. And big deal.
[00:35:01]
And so one night after the meeting, here they came, and here was Charlie. And he was tall and tan and nice looking, you know, and I could see he was sober. And I really was impressed. I had talked about quitting drinking. I really didn't know what that meant at all. I'd never met anyone who had quit drinking. And so I had to go to bed, and they sat out there and talked. And I heard them mumbling out there, and I thought, I hope he straightens them out, you know.
And then they laughed like fools out there, and I thought, it's a trick. It's no good, you know. If they're laughing, it's no good. I thought they were pulling something over me. So the next time I met Charlie, I said, Charles, I certainly hope you do realize this is not a laughing matter. So here I thought he was sober, you know, and he was wonderful. I was so happy for that and grateful. And the children, they were so fun.
And I think if children are a little on the young side, they can forgive and forget. We could learn a lot from them. You can bawl them out and spank them, and you just have to put your hand out, and they come right back to you, you know. Well, a month or so, I guess. But then with my mind, then I started to think like this. Well, I thought to myself, now before it was the drinking he was about all the time.
Now he's always running to those dumb meetings, because they were going to meetings every night. And it's still his show, you know, and I'm still home here with the kids. And so I brought that up. And then Charlie and John started to invite me to come to all the meetings with them. And I could see that they hesitated a little to invite me down to that club because, wow, it was something. They closed it a year later.
I think it fell down. We moved to another place. But it was something better. So I was invited to come to speaker meetings there. And I tell you, I guess I really needed to come to that club because I loved it. I sat right at home there, and I loved the people. And I could see they had been heavy drinkers, and they were sober. And that really did something to me. And, of course, when they got up on the podium and talked about how sensitive, so sensitive, I thought, oh, gee, that's rich, you know.
And when you talk about your disease and compare it to heart disease, I thought, oh, well, if you say so, that's okay with me, except your average heart patient doesn't go around pinching ladies. I thought to myself, I'm no blue-eyed dolly. I'm not going to buy this whole ticket. But I didn't say anything. But anyway. But then I started to worry because Johnny was always coming around the house every day.
And Johnny had brought the big book of A.A. I read it right away. And I'm a fast reader. Because I knew I could help him, would improve him better if I had read the book. And so I had read the book. And here they were. And I was waiting for some serious business. I had a real serious streak in me. And I knew there was spiritual chapters there. And I was waiting to hear them talk about this thing. And they were hurting me.
All they did were laugh and tell funny experiences and talk about cars. That's all I could see that they did. Charlie had an old Austin Healey. Just a bucket of bolts. And he'd drive up in that thing and they'd be under that wood. And they'd discuss this car from A to Z. And my God, I thought, I might have to get another sponsor for John. This thing is not getting anywhere. And I love Charlie, but Jesus.
Here we have this marvelous program and this is what they are going to do? So, I, and then I figured it out. You see, he didn't know how John was. John had leveled with him and told him all he had put me through. See? Charlie didn't know what a, you know, he was. And so I'll tell you what I did.
[00:40:01]
I got into my car one Sunday morning and I drove over to Charlie's place. And Virginia, where they live. And I proceeded to tell them, you know, what he was like. Can you imagine if Charlie had reacted the way I wanted him to? He would have taken one look at him and said, hey, Ackerman, I don't want to have anything to do with you. But he just sort of shuffled his feet around and he said, yeah, isn't he crazy?
You know, I mean, yes. And it was soon after that he started to mention to me about some women he knew. That met in the back room of the club. And he said, they're the nicest ladies and I wish you would go and meet them. And I thought, well, he's been good to us. I can go and meet his friends. You know, I mean, rude I am not. So. So. So, that's how I came to my first Alabama meeting. And I tell you, I knew right along, there was no question.
There was a girl, there was a participation meeting that night. And some girl was telling about some dumb things that she had done. And I knew it was for me. And they certainly told me. They said, we practice the same steps that the alcoholics do. And, you know, when you think of it. Now, and it occurred to me at times. I was sitting in the AA meetings and I think what a marvelous program. It seems hard to be an alcoholic and have this thing, you know.
And I was really excited about it. Trying to find someone after the meeting and talk on a one-to-one basis. And I'm so glad I learned that early. Because I'm in a, I've been in a meeting now for many years, the same meeting. And we hold fast to that rule. Not to let you come and start in the meeting and tell about what's happened at home. Because you really get a, it's not a good idea. Because she gets too much advice.
And it's the negative part. And we hold to the positive part. And then we are very sure to get on a one-to-one basis and talk. And let them feel it all. Because that's very necessary, too. And there was a woman, Myrna. She was a three-year student. And she sort of put her arms around me and became my special friend. And I always like to quote what Myrna used to say. Because not all of us are all that crazy about having you join Alcoholics Now.
And you can believe that. Because I've had some busy ideas about a country club. And a lot of clubs have not been on the top of the list of what I wanted to join. I can tell you that. So, her husband, Joe, had grown up in a supermarket. And they're home at the beach. And they're home in the mountains. And they're cars and the boats. And now they're living in a little duplex. And he came home and he said, Myrna, do you know what I've done today?
I've joined Alcoholics Anonymous. And I said, how did you find me now? Here we are. And here we were. Now we both had a program, you see. And we were going to meetings, both of us. And it was fine. I was darling in the meetings. I tell you, they all loved me. And they all loved John. And then we drove home. And it just didn't last quite all the way home. And I had a lot of trouble letting go of the past.
And John was, he was changing. And I tell you, I was envious of him. It wasn't just that he was sober. There was something more to him. Something had happened to John. And I knew it hadn't happened to me. And it sort of irked me. It just burned me up. I mean, did he want to go around and be that happy now? I mean, it was fine that he was sober. But did he have to be that happy? You know. It was just sort of.
And, you know, we'd come into those meetings. And they'd be all over him. And, you know, they made it true. I felt threatened by them. I got a distinct feeling that they wanted what I had. And it was my program, you know. And things like that, you know. And so we were sober still. Even though we were both going to meetings and had a program. And I called up Myrna. I said, now listen to this, Myrna.
I called her in the morning and said, listen to this, what he said to me last night. And Myrna would say, have you made the bed? And I had to run and make the bed. And I called her right back and I said, now listen to this. I had to run and make a death, and I called her right back, and I said, Now listen to this, this is what he said, and she said, Have you found the pieces? Well, and I'd had to do that, and of course,
[00:45:02]
I got pieces of my stuff, you know, and that's what she was trying to do, turn me around, you know, and she said, and let go, you know, you have to let go, you have to let go, and John is in good company, and they will help him, and we are going to help him in death, and I don't know how many times she had to tell me that, you know, and I said, oh yes, I'd try, and then I'd fall off, and I'd drive to meetings, and we'd have one of our fights, and we'd go way back, we'd hook up all the old stuff, it's like an old laundry list we went through, you know, and we'd start arguing about one little thing out here, and we dragged years of stuff out, you know, and we did that over and over again, I don't think any of you have ever done that, but we did, and so I'd drive to the meeting, and I'd say to myself, I need to start, let me hear something tonight, I need to hear something, and I'd get to the meeting, and I'd hear exactly what I needed, and I knew it, you know, and, but then when you're in the same meeting, night after, week after week, you know, you get to know everybody's story pretty well, and then on the way home, I'd say, I'd say, that was a very good thing Mary said tonight, and that's where I left her life, you see, and that sort of tamed about, you know, the need for me to do that thing, or stop doing that thing, whatever it was, and slowly I worked it through my mind, you know, principles before personality, and if I was only going to be able to learn from somebody who was perfect, I was sitting in the wrong ballpark, you know, because we don't come in here because we're hollow in successes, you know, so slowly I began to be able to see that, that if I heard something, and I knew that was what I ought to do more, but I had to go ahead with it in my mind, my judgment, you know, but I had one thing that I couldn't, that I had come to during the drinking, and it had worked for me, and that was that I could get John off the booth for a week, and maybe by holding up to him, I was hurting the kid, because I had an in, I knew, John had told me, and I knew how he had missed his father, his father died when he was eight years old, and he really couldn't accept it until he was a teenager, he kept hoping and dreaming if he was good, and if he did so-and-so, his father would come back, and I knew about this, and I could get him to go out there and play with the kids, or teach them something on the weekend, and I'd see him sweating cakes, and I'd look at him and I'd think, good for you, you know, and that was how I'd operate it, and so I was still doing it, you see, and I was now, and when you have four kids, you know, so there's something going on, they fight and run and scream and cry, and then I said, well, after all, John, you are an alcoholic, and all that drinking must have hurt them, you know, I was still doing it, and I knew what I was doing, and I didn't want to do it, and I did it over and over again, and John wouldn't defend himself anymore, he just said, I'm sorry, I'm trying to do better, it was like breathing, it returned on me time and time again.
And Myrna had talked to me about this, I had talked to her about this, and she said, I think it's time for you to take your inventory, and I was always very willing, you know, so I read the short form and the long form, you know, and my whole reaction to it was, well, what did I ever do? I stayed home and took care of the kids, you know, and I told that to Myrna, and that was my fifth step, so now what did I do?
And that was great. And so, and I tell you, I was really in a bad spot, because I could see, we were a lot of couples in that club that had been brought together, and that Charlie was instrumental in mending families, right and left, I tell you, and he was never able to get his own family together. He's still sober out there and very beautiful. Anyway, I could see the people who had it, you know, and we know how it is, you can tell, they kind of, they let other people be, and they're good to each other, the couples were good to each other.
I could see Myrna and Joe, they had such a beautiful, easy way about them, and no, it's no big deal, I took it. Oh, by the way, I was with Chuck and Anthony the day before we came here, and they sent the very best greetings to you.
[00:50:00]
They said you were in for a treat, and I guess they weren't lying. And anyway, so I knew, I knew what I, I didn't have what they had, and people were thinking that I was getting along fine, and I knew I wasn't, because I had a lot of things stirring inside of me, and this thing I was doing to John over and over again. And I came to the meeting that night, and I felt so isolated and apart from everybody, and something happened in that meeting, and it was just like somebody had rolled a fin for me.
I felt I wasn't aware of anyone around me, and something came back to me that had happened five years before sobriety, and now we were into our second year of sobriety. And that was that John had come home, come back to the house one morning after he left for work, and he came back and he said, I have to drive to San Diego. Do you want to come along with me? And I said, I sure do. And he took Katrina along, and Katrina was three years old at the time.
And I had some accusations I was going to make to John that morning. I had heard something, and I had added it all up in my mind, and I had remembered things, and I was really going to give it to him this morning. Well, if you want to give a little child a traumatic experience, you do what I did, because we put her in the back seat, and we took off for well over an hour ride. And the road traffic was perfect, and she was in a cage.
There was no way she could get anywhere. But I started in on John, and I screamed, and I cried, and I cussed, and I even tried to open the car door, and I was just insane with jealousy and rage. It just mounted. And John tried to calm me down, and he took Katrina with me, and there was no stopping me. And we came to San Diego, and John took care of his business, and we drove home again, and I did the very same thing all the way home.
I was just insane. I can just feel the pressure in me when I think about it. And when we drove up to the house, my mother was visiting from Sweden, and she was there with the other children, and I hopped out of that car, and I said, hi, how's everybody? And that had been the very last time I thought of that episode. It never even occurred to me until that time that we needed it. I had to go home and press it.
And other things came to me. That time when we should go to Palm Springs, and I woke up, and John was drunk. And I thought we really shouldn't drive with the children. But then a cool thought in the back of my head said, yes, we go, and if something happens on the road with him drunk driving, maybe that'll fix him. Now, I was the children's champion. I was the same as everyone. And this is what I did.
I put him on the line just in case he was fixing. And another time, I had taken the girls shopping on a Saturday, and left the baby at home. And we went shopping, and we had lunch. And on the way home, I thought, gee, I hope the baby's all right. But he isn't. But I came home, and Johnny was passed out in the lawn swing, and the baby was sitting on the steps of the food plate. And I said that was my girl that afternoon.
I really gave it to him, you know. And I can't help but think if something had happened to that boy, I'm sure we wouldn't have been together. And would I have ever recognized my partner? Because I knew what, I really knew what would happen. Johnny was a morning drinker, and this was a Saturday, you know. So these were some of the things that came to me. And then some of the stuff from my home. I used to work on my mother.
It was so important to me to try to get her to be my father, to divorce him. Because I knew it would hurt him. And she didn't feel the same way I did about his drinking. She would never leave him. She never did. And I was on her all the time about that and telling her how stupid she was and things like this. And these were things that came back to me. And that was part of my inventory. And I knew after that I couldn't pass myself off as a victim any longer.
I had my life at risk by me. And then you sort of, you look at all this mess and you write it down, and I did. And it's sort of devastating when you really see yourself, you know. And that's when you're free, finally.
[00:55:01]
Because as long as it's your fault and your fault and his fault and her fault that you feel the way you do these guys, what are you going to do? You know, you can tell him to shake up. I did. And he did. But it didn't fix me in here. So you're like you're getting out of a prison. And then I sort of clung to all those things and I was sad and depressed about it. And then Anthony Chamberlain helped me with this.
He said, Well, what do you think they had the six-step for? And so I finally understood that. And that's when you can move on, you know, and stop taking an interest in other people and stop looking at yourself all the time. It gets to be a bore. And that's what I've been trying to do. I'm very active in Alabama. And the children are grown. All the girls are married. And the little boy is 22 years old now.
And he has a girlfriend. He won't show to us. I guess he's very beautiful. He had one last year. I'm so sorry they broke up. It gave me such a fine line because he lived with this girl. But that wasn't really my best idea. He's being a little early on nowadays. I was glad it was a girl. And we have him eight to nine months in and out of our house all the time. We get to go do things like this, you know.
And life is so good. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful to Alcoholics Now and to Alan and to Johnny. He's so fun. And I tell you, if anyone had come to me when I was really married and that was just the type I was, you know, and said, well, Karen, alcoholism is going to be a part of your married life, I would have said, no way. Not in my life. And I found this fine fellow and I think he is going to be all right.
And then again, if anyone had come to try to tell me how life is today and try to explain to me what the power of being seeing people come into these meetings in both groups, you know, and broken and sad and lonely and afraid and to see them stay and see them change. If they had tried to explain that to me, I wouldn't have understood. There's nothing in me that's trying to prove that I could be a part of anything I do.
So, thank you so much for having me and I love you very much and I'm glad it's over.