My name’s Earl. I’m an alcoholic. Earl. Hi.

And I am finally master of the basket. All right. Connec. Right.

I used to do that when I first went to work when I got sober. Every time they’d send me a, uh, a… I’d go get my paycheck every two weeks, and I’d take the envelope and I’d go, “Not enough to live on.” Correct. “How long

should one wait before telling story or being a part of an event such as this one?” That’s easy. When they ask you, do it. There you go. Like, I think, uh, Don talked about that.

You know, we don’t come running up here and go, you know, “I’d like to do that.” If you’re doing that, you ain’t ready. You know? It’s just… It, it, it happens the way it’s supposed to.

“Earl, I stole about $800 worth of stamps from the post office vending machine. Should I make my amends by walking into the post office to make payment arrangements, or should I send payments anonymously? Thanks.” That guy over here went, “Oh, mail it to them.” And you know what?

Making amends is making amends. If you wanna mail it to them, mail it to them. If you want… You know, you stole something of value, and you wanna replace the value of that to somebody, great.

If you wanna walk into… If you feel that it’s necessary for you… The question I always ask myself when making amends, whether financial or otherwise, is how free do I wanna be? How free do you wanna be?

You wanna be free. You know, you’re the one that’s gonna have to answer that. Look in your own heart. Quiet the mind.

Sit still. The answers will come if your house is in order, right? Just be still. The answers will come.

You’ll know what you need to do, right? And if you go into the post office and you say, “Look, I stole a bunch of stamps,” and somebody hits a button, get the hell out of there. “My sponsor says, quote, ‘If you get the urge to use, call me,’ end quote.

However, historically, if I get the urge to use, I have already decided to use, and the urge is greater than the desire to call. What to do, what to do?” One of the things that I think is amazing about being, being sober and getting the urge… There’s a difference, I think, between an urge and an obsession.

You know what I mean? That impulse to use. A lot of us find that we have no defense at certain times. We get the, the, the…

It’s like, “Gee, I feel like using.” And your, and your mind goes into this strange space where it just goes, “Oh, well, screwed now.” You know? “Oh.” ‘Cause gotta go do that. He, uh, uh, Don talked about it when he was talking about contrary action and what you do and how he deals with, uh, procrastination. And he, he alluded when he said, uh, you know, how I deal with, with procrastination is I pick up the thing that I’m procrastinating doing, and I begin to do it.

I take the contrary action. I take the action. It’s amazing that it’s like… It’s amazing how attached we are to the feelings that we have, and if it doesn’t feel good, I don’t wanna do it.

You know? It’s… That’s the contrary action a lot of times for us is doing is… Doing it when it doesn’t feel good to do it.

Calling your sponsor and saying, “I feel like using.” And the sponsor’s role in that, when, uh, it… When I’m called by somebody I sponsor and they say, “I feel like using,” I say, “All right. Let’s walk through it. Let’s see what, you know, what happens if you use.

Let’s talk about it. Let’s delay gratification.” Right? ‘Cause there’s, there’s the immediacy of that need for immediate gratification. And if what I do is delay that gratification and think it out, it’s interesting.

It seems that the desire to use will pass whether I use or not. And it would… How great it is to be able to get to that place finally where I’ve had a desire to use, I didn’t use, and the desire to use passes. And to have my own experience that that’s possible for somebody like me.

There’s always that first time that you do that. Make sense? “Earl, how can I be like you when I grow up?” You presume that I have grown up.

You don’t wanna be like me. You wanna be like you, right? Who we find in here is ourselves. You know?

Who I’ve been introduced to in here is me. I’ll guarantee you this. I don’t even… I don’t know who wrote it, and it doesn’t make any bit of difference whatsoever.

Who you will find in here is yourself, and when you do, you will be pleasantly surprised. You will be pleasantly surprised. “Have you ever been to a city where the recovery sounds not so strong, and if so, what would you recommend for somebody to do if they found themselves in such a city?” You know, I, uh…

I mean, it just… It’s really funny to me, the, the, the image of that, right? Of an alcoholic going into a city and going into a meeting in a city he’s never been in before and looking around and standing and suddenly saying, “I find the recovery here beneath me.” “Here’s my number.

If you guys wanna get it together, by all means call.” And marching out of the meeting. If I find– If I th– If I go someplace and there’s recovery that’s taking place, then I’m someplace where there’s recovery taking place. I don’t know what God’s will is for me.

How am I gonna know what it is for you or for recovery in a city? I– Yeah, I’ve been to places where I think the AA’s great and the NA is awful. I’ve been to other cities where I thought the NA was great and the AA was awful. Usually for me, it’s when I th– I feel that they’ve veered from the code.

You know what I mean? And when I feel that there’s judgment and a lack of tolerance going on left and right. That scares me, and I run away from it. I– That’s not ’cause I don’t feel safe there, and I need to feel safe in recovery.

But what I do is I leave. My– I, I had a home group for a while, and eventually I started calling it the mean women in AA group. Because the women in this meeting were just m-mean as junkyard dogs, man. And it was, it was personalities before principles from the opening bell till they said amen at the end of the meeting.

And I just thought that they were being mean and cruel and insensitive to the younger women that were coming into the meeting. And I thought it was divisive, and I didn’t think it was bringing people together at all. And I didn’t like it. And, and, and my first reaction was that I was gonna start to take ’em on, right?

I’m gonna get into it now. I’m gonna bite down on this problem, and I’m never letting go. Right? And then in the w– And from, from the recesses of my brain, I hear the voice of Donald Madden, the late great Donald Madden, the original sponsor,

saying, you know, “Oh, wonderful. Look at you.” And I’m like, “Huh?” We just don’t get into it. That’s what we do. We don’t get into it.

We don’t. I’m not gonna– I’m not getting into the controversy. There’s nothing… The people that love the controversy, that love the discord, that can’t be happy unless there’s disharmony, dis-ease around them, you know, because they have problems

other than alcoholism, in my opinion. Those people that just love to get into it, I’m not getting into it with them. I agree with Don. I’m not getting into it with them because that’s what they’re looking for.

They’re, they’re dying for me to get into it with them so that they can create an identity for themselves for being in opposition to me or him or some other guy, and that’s how they’re comfortable, in opposition to things. I don’t wanna get into it ’cause it’s not about resolving anything. It’s about being in opposition to.

I don’t wanna live like that, so I don’t dance. Just let ’em dance. Even if you just let ’em dance on– by themselves, eventually they get tired and sit down. But if I’m s– If I get up and go, “I’ll dance with you.” “You’re an idiot.

You’re an idiot. You’re an idiot. You’re an idiot. You’re an idiot.” You know?

They’re just like, “This is fun.” You know? And I’m thinking, “No, I’m not having fun. This is miserable. I don’t wanna do it.” So I went and got another group.

I went and joined another group. Have your mean women in AA meeting. I’m going over here. “How do you continue to feel as though you live in AA

and go out and visit the world rather than live in the world and go out and, and go visit AA? And can you elaborate on this?” Well, you’re assuming that that’s how I feel about it, and actually, I, I, I don’t live in AA and visit the world. To the contrary, I, I live in the world, and I come to AA.

I– The whole point of AA is for me to be able to live life on life’s terms. All right? I mean, what I love about it, I mean, there’s a guy in AA that talks about it like this: We get together in, in meetings, and we get together, and it’s like a football game. This is the huddle.

You know what I mean? And we huddle up, and we go, “Okay, remember, we’re bodily and mentally different from our fellows. Ready? Break.” And we go out into the world.

We go out into the world, and we try to function from a code of love and tolerance towards others. We try to get out of ourself and be of service. We try to bring, you know, unity, service, and recovery, mind, body, and spirit into each thing.

We do our deal in the world. We come back into the meetings. “How you doing in the world?” “Doing great, man.” You know what I mean? No wreckage.

Did this, did this. They’re going, “How you doing? How you doing? How you doing?” So I mean, I carry– The principles of AA go with me everywhere I go ’cause that’s how I choose to live my life.

But I, I, I come to AA on a regular basis. I t– I touch base. I check in. And it happens not just when I go to meetings.

It happens all day long. I’m talking to this guy’s sponsor on the phone between going here and going there, checking in with my sponsor, Sobriety Brothers. We’re on the phone talking. We’re doing this and that.

So I’m in the arms of, of my fellows all day long. But I go out there and mix it up with them. That’s what I do without having to announce every step of the way that I’m in AA. “I was told that the greatest thing I could share was my pain.

What is your pain?” Please be specific. I’m kind of an upbeat guy. And I like sharing solution. But, uh, I don’t mind.

I have no objection to sharing my pain. Um, a pain that I’m experien– A-a-and here’s a perfect example. I am currently feeling an, having an experience in my life where a relation– a longstanding relationship in my life, um, is at a crossroads with a fellow member of Alcoholics Anonymous.

I feel, uh, um, hurt, betrayed- Brokenhearted over some recent events. Um, and s-soon to be resolved, I’m sure. And faced to the point where, uh, my, my wife was saying, “Man, you just haven’t been yourself for a few days.

It’s about this thing, isn’t it?” And I said, “Yeah. I’m not getting s– I’m not– I’m losing sleep. I’m going over, and over, and over, and over, and over.” But, but h-here’s the solution to that. Here’s the recovery to that everyday life experience that we’ve all had, is I’m not laying awake thinking about what he’s done and how I’m gonna

make this about him and this and that and the other thing. I’m laying awake thinking about, “Is my side of the street clean? Have I done anything to offend? Have I aroused jealousy or suspicion?

I’ve I– Have I…” You know, what’s my part in this? Is my side of the street clean? I’m not taking his inventory on this. I’m taking my own.

And I’m gonna take my feelings, and I sought the counsel. I called my sponsor and I said, “Here’s my s-problem. Here’s the tools that I’m thinking of putting in place. Do you have any thoughts?” He said, “Yes, this, this, this, and this.” And I said, “I’ll do as you suggest.” I’ve spoken to a couple of other individuals about this who’ve given me some very specific suggestions which

I have taken to heart and I will utilize in addressing this situation in my life, and I’m just gonna let it be what it is. You know, my job is to show up and address this in as honorable a way as I possibly can. The outcome of this is not up to me. I gotta just stay in this.

So there you go. There’s some pain, and there’s what I’m doing about it. And if you’ll notice, I’m having a great weekend in the face of that. Yeah.

Are we in danger today of an ex… Are, are, are we in dan– I can’t read this one. Anybody know their question? Are, might we’re in danger today of an explosion?

Does anybody know this? Explosion. Anybody’s question? Explosion.

Is this… Nobody wants to own this question? All right, I’ll table that question. I can’t read it.

How do you talk to adolescents about alcoholism? Um, very directly, very honestly, very simply. It’s like I talk to adults about alcoholism. Um, I’m particularly, um…

I, I have a, a, a, a high degree of admiration for an adolescent wrestling with their alcoholism. I find any adolescent that comes to me and says, “Hey, I’m, you know, 15 years old and I’m trying to get sober,” thr-right off the bat, I’m amazed- … and have amazing respect for that. I mean, at 15 I was…

Are you kidding me? At 15, uh, no way did I possess the consciousness required to begin to even be-e-to even begin to wrestle w-with my, my alcoholism. So for an adolescent to be addressing that I think is remarkable, so I approach them with a great deal of respect, and I treat them with respect.

One alcoholic talking to another. I don’t talk down to an adolescent about alcoholism. ‘Cause if he’s got alcoholism, I mean, that’s a 15-year-old with 80-year-old eyes most likely. You know what I mean?

That’s not your standard 15-year-old. So with respect, with respect. That’s this explosion one. Well, I know who wrote the explosion.

The guy that wanted to have sex with his wife after two years. I, I’m, uh… Somebody will be contacting you to come up here next year. I- What guidance would you give to guys who have been in and out for years?

What if they go in and out so much they stop telling the group? How do we address this, address it? Um, I’m being careful.

Here’s what I think about people who go in and out, and in and out, and in and out. I think that they are people that go in and out, and in and out, and in and out. That’s what I think. And if they come in and say, “I have a desire to stop drinking.

Would you help me?” my answer is, “Y-absolutely.” Extend the hand of AA. I don’t know, like I said, don’t know what God’s will is for me. I don’t know how am I gonna know what it is for them. I’ve seen guys go in and out, and in and out, and in and out for years and get sober and come to know long-term sobriety.

Seen it a lot. I’ve also seen guys go in and out, and in and out, and in and out for years and ultimately die as a direct result of their alcoholism and drug addiction. When a guy comes in through that door and says, “Help,” it is my job to extend the hand of AA. That’s it.

Let’s, let’s start working here. Let’s get a big book. Let’s start, you know, reading the book. Give me a call.

We’ll talk. That’s it. That’s it. I pass judgment on that.

One alcoholic judging another is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of in my life. I am in no position… I mean, how am I? You’ve heard my story.

How am I gonna say, “You got drunk again? How could you do such a thing?” “I am in shock.” This is like… No.

Am I gonna say to the guy, “I think possibly you might be in danger of getting comfortable going in and out, and in and out, and in and out.” I… To me, that’s a terrifying concept, and I think it’s, it’s, it’s each time you do that, the presumption is, is that you can– you’re gonna get back every time. You might not. I’ve seen those guys too.

In and out, in and out, in and out, coming around meetings drunk suddenly. Not cleaning up. Coming in drunk and going, “You know, I, I can’t get sober.” A, a guy I got sober with, Jimmy Atherton, God bless him. He’s been, been around AA as long as me.

Died last year, and I remember seeing him two weeks before he died out in front of a meeting, 7:30 AM meeting. Jimmy walks up. He goes, “Ah, there’s Earl. Earl loves me.

He won’t judge me.” And I said, “You’re absolutely right, Jimmy. I love you and I won’t judge you, but y-you look like you’re dying. You look like you’re melting.” It’s so bad ’cause his liver’s so bad. He shoot, drink, shoot dope, go to the hospital, stay in the hospital for a while, get out into a sober living house, drink, shoot dope, right?

Go back into the hospital, and that was his little triangle. He was– his, his world had shrunk to, you know, a week here, a week here, a week here. Back out a week, over here a week, recover. And, and 80% of his liver was gone.

And I just said, “What you’re doing doesn’t seem to work, and you don’t seem happy at all to me.” And he goes, “I’m a miserable man and I wish I’d die.” Two weeks later, he did. And he didn’t overdose. His body just- Said, “That’s it.

Can’t do it anymore.” His body just shut down. Just bu- shut down and died. So the in and out and in and out, rough… That’s rough turf, man.

It’s rough turf. I, I don’t have what it takes to do that. The guys in and out and in and out, my job is, let’s go to a meeting, work the steps, let’s get you a sponsor. I’ll sponsor you.

You’ll get that guy to sponsor you. We’ll do whatever you want. We’ll do our part for you. God willing, you’ll do your part a- and you’ll stay sober.

If not, it’s not for me to decide. We’re gonna talk about profanity a little bit. Good, bad? He’s asking.

Me, don’t have a problem with profanity at all. Don’t have a problem with it. How I do it is, if I see children in the room, I sh– I, I watch it out of respect to the child and the parents. That’s it.

I mean, I just… Common courtesy. You know, if they say to me, “Please don’t,” uh, you know, w- I have a defiant nature. And I think a lot of these questions, a lot of these questions are about kinda, kinda just kinda ease up a little bit on, on the, the defiance one can

find in an alcoholic such as myself. Um, my sponsor, Donald, used to have a Sunday night group, and he called me up one day and he said, “I’m having a Sunday night group at the house, and you have to be there.” And I said, “Well, see, now you went and screwed that up for me.” “Because, you know, I would’ve loved to have come to that meeting.” “But now you told me I gotta come, so I ain’t coming.” And I can’t repeat what he said because it was extremely prof…

There was a great deal of profanity in the sentence. So I wouldn’t know. So he would start the meeting every Sunday night letting the people in the group know where everybody was. If people were out of town, he would announce that so no one would worry about anybody in the group.

And he would say, “Welcome to the Sunday night meeting. Steven is in San Francisco, Christopher is in Texas, and Earl is in defiance.” Every week he would do this, right? Like, he’s in…

But that was his way of saying, “Earl’s a member of this group, and we’re not letting him get away with this.” “We’re just gonna keep poking at him,” right? A-a-and it’s true. I’m defiant by nature, and I love the idea of getting the dukes up and, you know, being in, like I said before, in opposition to stuff. And it, it’s, it’s so easy how quickly and readily I am willing to jump into the fray.

And one of the things that Alcoholics Anonymous is absolutely famous for is controversy. We’ve had controversy in AA since there was three members. “What do you mean we’re doing that? I don’t wanna do that.

What the hell’s wrong with you two guys?” Right? You know. Here we go, you know? And it’s always been that way.

Right before I came in in the ’70s, late ’70s in LA, everybody was suddenly hypoglycemic. There was this, a big furor about hypoglycemia, right? After that, it was the inner child came in, and everybody was flipping out about the inner child thing. “I went to a meeting today, and if I had been new, I would’ve thought all you need to get sober is a teddy bear and a hug.” And ranting and raving about these people over here.

“What’s the matter with these people?” “And when I’m done talking about them, I’m getting after these idiots over here. What’s the matter?” And it’s just whirling st- you know what I mean? And you’re the new guy in the back going, “Teddy bear? Do I need a teddy bear?” You know?

You know? “Somebody hug me, quick.” I d- I, uh… Just losing our minds, right? And all the, you know, the bleeding deacons and, you know, now it’s antidepressants.

Peop- “Damn, these people are not sober.” And I think, “What are you?” “I’m a retired plumber.” “Oh, well, I’m gonna take my medical advice from you. Thank you very much.” What the hell’s going on, man? Right? I mean…

And I got lots of opinions on yay or nay, or I think that’s okay, or that’s not okay. And everybody else got their opinions about that stuff, too. And it’s all big controversy around AA. And the, you know, what about the guy going in and out?

And what about, you know, men’s groups and women’s groups? I don’t believe that’s in line with the traditions. And, you know, Gay AA, what’s the matter with those people? Why don’t they just come to AA?

And all you druggies for Christ’s sake. How many people in here use alcohol only? How many? Whoo.

Boy, that’s a tiny ass conference if you’re the only ones in here. And you know what? I’m, I, I’m a drug addict.

Yeah. When I go… And you know what? When I go to CA to speak, I identify, “My name’s Earl, and I’m an addict.” When I go to Alcoholics Anonymous, I don’t care how many people in here use like me, use drugs like me.

When I come in here, I say, “My name’s Earl, and I’m an alcoholic,” for one simple reason: Those guys are here. Amen. Those guys are here. Respect.

Respect. I respect my elders today. I go to speak at a meeting, they say… Scott said to me when he said, “Will you come out here and speak?

And you don’t need a tie.” He made, he made a point of telling me, “You don’t need a tie,” ’cause he knows if nothing’s said, I’m gonna bring one. I’m gonna bring a suit and a tie, and I’m not a suit-and-tie boy. But I will bring a suit and tie to show respect to my elders, and I’ll do it till the day I die. Does it, does, does my res- is that evidence of my respect for AA?

In my opinion, not nearly as much as how I live my life. That’s my respect for Alcoholics Anonymous, how I walk out the door and try to do things during the course of a day. But this controversy thing is just crap as far as I’m concerned. It’s all crap.

It’s all outside issues. Here– You want controversy? Here’s what I think the controversy is in Alcoholics Anonymous. How come there’s so many people in Alcoholics Anonymous who’ve never read the big book?

Mm-hmm. Legions of them. How come there’s so many people in Alcoholics Anonymous who’ve never worked a step? Legions of them.

How come there’s so many people in AA that don’t have a sponsor, don’t understand what a sponsor is? How come there’s so many people sponsoring people that have never worked the steps? What are they saying to them? And I think as AA members, if what we

do is we go out into Alcoholics Anonymous, function as members of AA as outlined in our text, our program, work the 12 steps as outlined in the book w-with the aid of a sponsor, have an experience as a result of working those steps, turn around and start giving that away to these other guys, just that, not having to pretty it up, not having to bring in all this other crap, but just stick to this stuff, all these other things that are so controversial just kind of seem to disappear ’cause it’s a non-issue.

Somebody says to me, “What do you think about antidepressants?” I have no opinion on that. Just what AA says. You wanna talk to me outside? Maybe I’ll get into it with you, maybe I won’t.

Right? But I won’t do it in here. Not in here. And, uh, yeah, I, I agree with Don.

It’s like I don’t wanna get into it that much, but the only thing that ever got me up in a meeting was when they were passing around some stuff because they were thinking about changing the 164 pages. That shot me up out of my chair like nobody’s business. I was like, “Nope, I’ll, I’ll– You know, I’ll quit my job and go on a rant that lasts until that gets put to bed.” I ain’t laying down for that one.

You want me to take this story, do that story. You wanna touch that 164? I don’t think so. And you might roll me out of bed and get me riled up if you go anywhere near his opinion.

Yeah. That being Silkworth right over there, the doctor’s opinion. Anyway. What

do you suggest about helping a newcomer who only goes to one meeting a week and doesn’t call anybody? I like that question. Um, I get into trouble about, about this all the time when I talk. Guy who’s a sponsor used to call me up.

I’d say, “Hello,” and he’d say, “Earl, it’s…” We’ll call him Ted. “Earl, it’s Ted.” I’d say, “What is it, Ted?” “I’m afraid.” Yeah, I can hear that in your voice, Ted. Ted, I gotta ask you, have you– And it’s like two thirty in the morning.

Well, Ted, did, did you go to a meeting today? “No.” Have you, ha-ha-have you read the big book? Have you, have you, have you got on your knees and prayed today, Ted? Have you read the big book?

Have you, have you gotten out of yourself and been of service to anybody else? Uh, have you done anything to defend your recovery today, Ted? “Well, no.” Well, it was good talking to you, Ted. Click.

And people think, “How can you do that? Poor, suffering newcomer.” Ted has nine years. Poor, suffering alcoholic. Poor, suffering alcoholic in the bed, paralyzed with the fear, and you’re gonna talk to him like this.

I go, “Timeout. Ted has never gone to regular meetings regularly. Ted has never gotten out of himself and sponsored anybody else or worked with anybody else. He doesn’t have anything to give.

He’s never worked the steps. He has refused to do anything, and he has been absolutely miserable the entire time he has managed somehow, inexplicably, not to drink this whole time.” And, and what am I gonna do? Am I gonna give Ted the message that this is okay?

Oh, I’m– It’s okay, Ted. I’m here. Let’s talk about it because, you know, when you haven’t done anything all day long in your defense of your own recovery and, and at two thirty in the morning you think it’s a good time to call me, I’m gonna promote that thinking, Ted.

I’m gonna give you the impression that on some level this may work. That this plan you’re executing may somehow at some point relieve you of the painful nature of your life. I’m not sending Ted that signal. I’m tending– I’m sending Ted the signal based on my experience.

If you wanna feel different, Ted, you gotta stop doing the things that are causing you to feel this way. Get up in the morning, go to a meeting, and call me back. But don’t– If you don’t wanna go to a meeting, don’t call me. If you’re not gonna spend– make any effort to defend your own recovery, why are you calling me and expecting me to put my time and energy into your recovery?

And also, Ted, frankly, if your alcoholism hasn’t beaten you into a state of reasonableness, how the hell do you think I’m gonna? Your illness is far more powerful than I am. And “Okay.” The next day Ted calls. He’s been to a meeting, and magically feels a little better.

Got up, got up, got– took a shower, shaved, got dressed, went to an AA meeting, and called his sponsor. This day was looking fundamentally different than the day that had thrown Ted into this maelstrom of pain and self-centeredness. It works that way, so that’s what I’m gonna tell Ted. I’m not gonna encourage Ted to talk about it.

What is a suggestion in dating for guys with less than 30 days? Oh, it says, “Or ha- not completed the steps.” Two different– two very different scenarios.

Two very different scenarios. Um, dating in your first 30 days. I would respectfully suggest that in your first 30 days, if you’re thinking about anything other than this- …

you’re, you’re teetering on the edge of the precipice. You’re in trouble. Trust me when I tell you, she’ll be there, whoever the hell she is. Right?

I mean, it’s like the guy going to the meeting… And besides, if you’re under 30 days, man, how good a picker have you got, picking some girl, you know? You’re out of your mind. Gee, I wonder what you’re looking for.

Right? It’s that deal where you look across the room and your eyes meet hers and , you know? And you think to yourself, “Well, she could fix it.” “She could definitely make everything okay.” Right? And you’re watching her like a hawk.

And then in the beginning of the meeting, say, “Would those in their first 30 days please raise your hand?” Certainly, her hand goes up, and her sleeve falls back to, to expose the hospital band and she is there. Do yourself a favor. Look around the room for a sponsor.

Stop looking at her and get a sponsor fast. Get the guy sitting next to you. I don’t care if he’s even awake. Wake him up.

“You’re my sponsor.” “Why?” ” ‘Cause I want her.” Good a reason as any. All right. Uh, or haven’t completed the steps.

I think you do yourself… Look, there’s a lot of mythology in AA, you know? If you go– If you’re in LA, you shouldn’t get in a relationship in your first year. Fly to New York, it’s six months.

I’m gonna figure Chicago, nine and a half, ten months probably. What the hell do I know, right? I mean, it’s just… It’s, these are guidelines.

I, I, I’ve never met anybody who didn’t get in a relationship in their first year that had the option of getting in one, right? You go, “I’m not getting in a relationship in my first year.” “Who’s that?” Just shiny. She’s shiny. Or that little waft of perfume goes by and we just become just, you

know, three-toed troglodytes, you know? It’s… Smell good, must have. Bringing out all your best charm ’cause you’ve been out there slamming dope and drinking like a madman.

You’re a clever, charming guy. You walk up and go, “Me like you.” Just avoid a lot of pain and suffering, man. Just stick with this for a little while.

That’s gonna be there. You see the women walking around in the meetings, right? Yeah. Look at them all and go, “No, no, I don’t…” “I, I’m unaware of females in a meeting.

I have no idea what you’re talking about.” Get into the steps, man. Catch the buzz. Catch the buzz. And when you date…

My criteria for dating when I was early in sobriety, a year, two years, three years, four years, was as long as she’s got a sponsor and working the steps, going to regular meetings regularly, I’m gonna stay out of her program. I’m gonna work mine and date her and get to know her as a human being. She tells me she stopped working the steps, she hadn’t been to a meeting in a while, she’s not talking to sponsor, now I got a ooh, ooh.

I don’t wanna date untreated alcoholism. Been there, done that, thank you, no. Had a woman I’ve been with for years decide… She got sober when she was 14 years old, and she decided she was gonna drink like a normal human being.

I’d known her for a while. Had never perceived her as a normal human being. She got drunk, I got an apartment. Boom.

Another woman I was dating, um, I fou- I went– uh, I found out that she’d, uh, been l- using a little of that, uh, morphine-based cough syrup for a slight cough she had. Right? And she was– And I said, “Are you, are you out?” And she said, “Yes.” That was on a Sunday evening.

Tuesday afternoon, I was putting the sheets on the bed in my new apartment. I got the hell out of the way. Both times I got out of the way was a really good idea. Really good idea.

So don’t focus on… If you focus on the dating, you got a bad plan, I think. Can you give a picture of how sponsorship has changed for you both in how you sponsor and are sponsored? Yeah, that’s a great question.

Sponsorship. How I’ve been sponsored is I took enough of a beating out there, I don’t need a hostile sponsor. That’s just me. Some guys love the ass-kicking, yell and scream, an angry, hostile sponsor.

I don’t got any need for that. Um, I, I, I looked around, I find a spon– I, my picker was broken. It’s a god shot that I got the sponsor I got out of the bat. I got the late, great Donald Madden, who loved me when I needed loving and got to know me.

Went way beyond the call of a sponsor. The, the responsibility of, of a sponsor, in my opinion, is to take an individual through the 12 steps, as outlined in the book, right? To expose them to an effective use of the s- of the fellowship of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous as an avenue through which those 12 steps can be realized. That’s what a sponsor does.

Donald Madden w- And a lot of guys go far beyond that. I remember, uh, uh, uh, Scott and I were talking about it. I was, uh… Uh, Saturday Night Ohio Street was a big, young, crazy meeting in LA for many, many years.

Still is. And, uh, I was going to four meetings a week, yeah, at Ohio Street. And Donald had decided that the Saturday Night Ohio Street meeting was slipping a little bit, so we just took o- When the next elections came, he just took him and all the guys he sponsored, and we went in and voted him in secretary and took over the meeting.

And I had the cleanup commitment. And I had the cleanup commitment ’cause I still wasn’t talking to anybody, and I didn’t wanna talk to anybody. So I could hang in the back, not talk to anyone. 10:50, 10 o’clock, the meeting’s over.

10:15, I c- everybody’s out of there. I could clean up the joint, lock it up, and go home, and didn’t really have to deal with any other human beings. And, uh, one night I’m standing in the back of the meeting. The main speaker’s up there f- you know, flanneling away.

And Donald, uh, um, looks back. I’m standing in the back of the meeting, and I’m just caving in. I can’t… I’m done.

I can’t do this anymore. It’s all too difficult for me. I’m just… I, it’s…

I’ve got that what’s the use going on. I’m coll- collapsing into myself and I’m just paralyzed in the back of the meeting. Donald looks back and he sees me stand there.

He gets up, walks up to the front of the meeting to the podium where the main speaker is in the middle of his pitch, taps the main speaker on the shoulder. Main speaker l- just goes, “Just a minute.” Steps aside. Donald goes to the microphone and goes, “Earl.” And I’m in the back of the meeting, and I just went… And he said, “We’re having a meeting.” And I went, “Right.” “Right.

Meeting.” Just pulled me out of my head back into the room, stepped off the podium. The speaker came back to the microphone just kinda like, “What the hell was that?” Everybody in the meeting’s going, “Who the hell’s Earl?” I’m in the back going… That’s a sponsor, and I’ll tell you another thing he did is n- I mean, that was an example of Donald, right?

I mean, he loved us. We were family. There was– You’d go to the big Thursday night Brentwood Beginner’s Workshop, and you could look, and there was Donald’s row. You could always spot the row.

John Doig, the six-foot-eight, you know, gay homicidal maniac. You had the angry nun. You had Aloma, who always believed all anyone ever needs in life is God and proper accessories. You know?

Just this lunatic row, you know? And I’m sitting down there, you know. You know, there’s deeply disturbed people who have been assigned to watch me. He got this row, right?

And there we were. And I mean, I remember at that same Saturday night meeting, my commitment starts at 10:15, right? And I’m out there on the loose after… You know, I’ve gotten a job painting houses, you know, trying to wear me out all day long.

That was the j- goal of that job, right? Just wear him out and send him to a meeting, right? So I just paint, you know what I mean? Till I hit a corner, you just turn and paint.

You know? Which was great, just Navajo White on Navajo White, man. You know what I mean? Just this blank screen and all this insanity pouring out on it.

And they’d say, “Go to a meeting.” “Right.” Drop the brush and run to a meeting. Right? And I get out of work, and it’s really early, and I’m nuts. I can’t be alone.

I can’t be alone. You know, out among them, I’m gonna hurt people, you know? And, and I go, “And I’ve gotta go to the meeting,” and I know they’re there. They’re there at, like, six o’clock for the 8:30 meeting.

There’s guys that show up at 6:00, open it up, air out the building, get all the pews all set up and the chairs set up, get the coffee going. There’s a little… And they all have commitments to do that, and I’m gonna go there ’cause I don’t have any place else to go. I know Donald’s there and the guys are there, but I’m w- I’m worried about the guys.

They all know my commitment’s at 10:15. They all know if I show up there early, they know I’m a loser. They know I… I mean, in my head, th- I, I’m a loser.

The imagined insults, these are the worst. And I’m, I’m getting ready, and I realize here’s what I have to do. Earl’s best thinking. Here I am at work thinking it through.

While I’m going in the door, and the first guy that says, “The hell are you doing here at six o’clock?” I’m decking him. No one else is gonna wonder what I’m doing here. This is my brilliant plan. So as you can imagine, I’m as jacked up and crazy as a human being can get, marching through the back door of that building, right?

And here I come in, and Donald sees me, and he goes right up to the podium and he says, “Earl, it’s 6:22 and you’re late.” You see what he did? He s- went… He just saw me, and he knew, “He’s crazy, and he needs to be with us, and I’ve gotta make it safe here for him.” And he went up there and he said, “It’s 6:22.

You’re late.” This is 23 years ago, and I remember that it was 6:22. That’s how it, how he cracked me open, was doing those things, that kindness that just cracked me open. It was just… He just made it safe for me to be here.

He just announced to everybody that he wanted me here at this time. And I remember just looking at him and thinking, “How do you know?” He knew because he was an alcoholic that had been relieved of the self-obs- obsession that is inherent in our lives, and he was available to be there to see what was going on with me.

And he came to my r- aid. He came to my rescue. Donald Madden, I miss him every single day. He died July 25th, 1995, and I miss him every day.

I had a sponsor, and I thought… Well, I see, I, ’cause I thought he was dead. Donald Madden’s not dead, and I… You know how I know?

Couple years later, I gave a guy sponsored, uh, a K for 11 years, and he said, uh, “I wanna thank my sponsor, Earl Hightower, for, uh, showing me the path, showing me the way to recovery, and I wanna thank the late, great Do- I wanna thank the late, great Donald Madden for showing him.” I just started crying because I thought, there it is. There’s the human chain.

There’s the humanity of this that my alcoholism always robbed me of. There’s the connection. There it is. He knows about Donald, the history of who we are, our lineage.

I’m a product of the late, great Donald Madden, who’s a product of Norm Alpe, who’s a product of Chuck, who’s a product of Bill. I mean, there it is. That’s my lineage. Those are my boys.

That’s how I go back. I’m bound to these people by a spiritual path. Sponsorship is an intimate relationship. That’s why, as a general rule, men sponsor men and women sponsor women.

Was Donald Madden a big, giant, flaming, flamboyant homosexual? You bet your bottom dollar he was. He’d flew through a room like nobody you’ve ever seen. Thanks.

And, and I’m a hopeless heterosexual. Did that have– Was that a problem in our relationship? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

You know, do I know m-women that sponsor men and men that sponsor women? Yes. And on occasion, it’s not a problem. On occasion, it is.

So there’s all of that. And that, of course, Billy Varty couldn’t read that. Anybody wanna lay claim to that one and tell me what it says? No.

I’ll, I’ll hold onto that one. “I have been at the same job for three years and with the same woman for the same. My question is, how do I stop the feelings I have to run and quit both of them before I feel stuck in a rut– because I feel stuck in a rut?” Well… Again, these are the kinda questions that, you know, there’s so much information that I don’t have about that.

I– You know, that to give you a, a, a specific or, you know, a specific answer to the question is difficult. Thank you. New drinking. Um, I always think in these kinda situations, if both things– I’m feeling like I’m stuck in both my job

and my relationship, thinking, “Okay, what’s the common denominator here?” Probably me. And what I need to do is maybe– Who can change these things up is me. Maybe I approach these things with a new attitude.

Maybe I look for ways to enhance the relationship. Maybe I look for ways to go to work with an attitude of being of service rather than, you know, “How do I grind this out, get my check, and get out of here with the least possible effort?” Which is the way a lot of us approach a job, right? Is to– For me to reframe my thinking, it’s a great use of what, of the program and what we learn here ’cause what we get– One of the things we get back here is the power of choice.

I can choose to do things differently. As a matter of fact, it can get very, very intense in your life, choosing to do things differently. As an example, um, I bought a house with, uh, my wife. First time I bought a house.

Um, bought this little house. Loved the house. Moved in, thought, “I’m a homeowner.” Got neighbors. What am I gonna do about that?

And I have a front lawn. I’m looking around. Everybody got a front lawn. Lovely lawns, right?

Gonna have to– clearly gonna have to keep up the front lawn ’cause that’s how you sp-that’s how you spot the alcoholics and drug addicts, right? Beautiful lawn, beautiful lawn, dead lawn, beautiful lawn, beautiful… There they are. They’re there.

They’re the dead lawn, right? And it’s got this, like, hose and this stuff in the front of the house, and I’ve seen other people do it. You turn this thing on, you take the hose, you throw the water around. You know, you water this stuff, right?

Fine, I’ll water. So I– my wife, my wife says, “What are you doing?” I said, “Eh, I’m gonna go water out here.” She’s like, “All right. This ought to be good.” Turn on the water. I’m out there throwing the water around, and all of a sudden, I got these syc– My s- my, my, my street looks like upstate New York.

It’s like you don’t even know you’re in the city. It’s got this archway of, uh, of white sycamore trees on the street. It’s just beautiful, right? And I’m watering, and all of a sudden, the, the sun is coming through the trees and it’s hitting the plants, you know, and the water’s kinda sparkling, you know, on the plants.

And I’m, I’m kinda thinking, “Well, this is kinda cool.” And then I had this thought, “If I’m not mistaken, this stuff is alive, these plants.” And if I vaguely recall college, these plants are breathing in carbon dioxide and breathing out oxygen. I, on the other hand, I’m standing right here, breathing in the oxygen and out the carbon dioxide.

We got a little thing going on here. I’m catching a little buzz now. It’s like, all right, here’s a little more for you, my brothers. Here’s a little more for you, my sisters.

I’m getting into this. My wife comes out and goes, “What are you doing?” “I’m catching a buzz with my friends, honey. Look at all these guys out here. We’re having a ball.” She knew this was gonna happen.

She just, you know, she just goes, “Yeah, you got some more friends in the back. When you’re done out here, go get back there.” I’m like, “Yeah!” I’m in the back. But I’m out there in the front watering the lawn. Guy drives by, sees man on lawn watering plants.

Not what is happening. What is happening is there’s an alcoholic out on the front lawn hanging out with a few of his friends and catching a little buzz. Here’s the thing. Either way, I gotta go water the lawn, right?

If I want to have a nice lawn and nice plants, I got to water the one– the nice lawn and the nice plants. So may– y- you– I can choose. Do I have to water the plants or do I get to? My choice.

Can I ha- catch a little buzz out here and do the amazing thing, marvel in the ordinary? Marvel in the ordinary. Can you imagine how free we’re getting now? What kind of buzz is available to us now if we’re marveling in the ordinary?

I mean, I used to have to hear a bullet go by to think I had an interesting evening. You know? Because I was so dead inside, I couldn’t do anything else. That’s why Scott, you know, tried to get to the moon in his plane.

You know what I mean? Desperate need of catching a little buzz here. You know what I mean? Right?

I mean, this is what we’re doing, you know? In here, I can feel again. You get cracked open by guys like Donald Madden, guys like, uh, Cherry. You know?

Y- the guys that we all look to that are around here that help crack us open and allow us to come in and be a part of something bigger and beyond ourselves, right? And to be able to marvel in the ordinary is a tremendous thing in life. To now know that I can catch a- an amazing buzz talking to a guy with fifty-three days. Or I can see a face of a guy that looks vaguely familiar, we talking, suddenly I can see the smile on this guy’s face over here and his last name’s Hightower, and I think, “Got to be related.” Two stocky guys

named Hightower? Drunks. We’re related. Got to be a connection.

Having a good time, right? Doesn’t take a lot. And this is the thing. There are no ruts in my life.

None. None. Because I’m catching a buzz on a daily basis, man. It’s wherever and whenever I want.

You use the meditation in step eleven. You close your eyes, breathe in, breathe out, and come out of that looking out of your skull from a different angle. Right like that. Catch a buzz.

Be open and available to so much that’s going on in life. That’s a remarkable thing for people that are w- that were dying one day at a time to have access to something like that. I don’t have any ruts, and I’m never bored. And I’ll tell you why I’m never bored.

I’m not boring. Yeah. If you’re walking around saying, “I’m bored,” careful. Somebody’s liable to point out the obvious there.

If you’re bored, it’s because you’re boring. You can’t blame it on anybody else. If you’re sitting around going, “I am bored.” Expecting somebody to jump up and go, “Well, we got to do something about that.” “Fred is bored. Let’s get a band in here.

Let’s do something.” “Man, let’s take him somewhere.” That’s on Fred. If you’re bored, get up. Go out there. Talk to somebody.

Engage in something. Find something that you’re interested in. Pull yourself out of the boredom. How do you build a solid home group?

Get a coffee pot and a big book. Sit down and do what’s suggested in the big book. That’s how you build a home group. Call central office.

Say, “I want to build a solid home group. Any suggestions?” They’ll send you a packet. Do what it says. See, that’s the cool thing is, like, we’re not looking for some new, wacky, great angle to suddenly make it interesting again.

Where you want to find the solid home group, where you want to catch the buzz, where you want to experience the freedom is right down the middle. Chop the wood and carry the water. Go to meetings.

Get a sponsor. Work the steps as outlined in the big book, and then freely give away what has been freely given to you. S- if you stay in the… You know, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ve been hearing nothing but that.

Have you got anything else?” Nope. Don’t need anything else. Anything else would confuse the issue. You do that, and a life will come up around it.

We fully expect you to manifest this however you deem appropriate. You got a criminal defense attorney here. That’s– he manifests in that, in that realm. There’s other…

There’s a doctor in here, right? There’s, there’s pilots, and there’s… You know, I’m sure there’s a– there’s probably a gardener or a, a painter in here, you know? There may be an accountant or a, or, or a songwriter or a poet or a director or whatever.

Manifest this your way. But this is the foundation upon which we stand free men. That’s what we’re building. We’re building the foundation.

We ain’t picking out the drapes. We’re building the foundation. Some of us as alcoholic go to church. We should not quote the Bible.

Please tell us why. I, I, I don’t go to church, so I don’t know if I’m the guy to answer that, but I will. Um, I will say I’m all for going to church. All for it.

Just like the book says, a lot of people get a lot out of church, and we shouldn’t be so elitist in our stand that we think we got something better than they got. We just, we got this, and they got that. What I do know about Alcoholics Anonymous is whatever your faith is, bring it. You have a profound faith?

Bring it here. There’ll be no conflict. There’s no dogma here. Bring whatever you got and bring it on in.

It, it’ll fit just fine. Um, and, and absolutely, you should quote the Bible whenever you like, long as it’s not here. I’m not saying don’t quote the Bible. You can…

You… I walk into my room, you can say, “You know, Earl, it says in the Bible…” Absolutely fair game. Absolutely fair game. And I might be very interested in what you have to say.

Usually am. We just do this here. We just do this here. And, a-a-and you bring your fai– I mean, I have a certain faith that goes possibly beyond what’s in Alcoholics Anonymous.

Maybe, maybe not. And when I’m in Alcoholics Anonymous, that washes over who I am and what my faith is. It washes into that. And it’s, that’s, that’s beautiful for me.

I do not have to convince you to do it my way. I had a guy in a meeting one time say to me, essentially, “Hi, Earl. I’m a Lutheran.” And I said, “How nice for you.” And he said, “You know, are, are… Y-you’re not Lutheran, are you, Earl?” And I said, “No.” And he said, “You know you’re gonna go to hell?” And I said, “That’s about as far as this conversation’s going right there.” “We’re gonna cut that off.” And I got

nothing against Lutherans. I don’t. Not a thing. But I don’t do that in here.

That’s me. I don’t do it in here. Want to talk about it out there? Great.

Want to talk about antidepressants out there? Great. You want to talk about, uh, uh, Republicans and Democrats out there? Great.

You wanna talk about George Bush out there? Let’s have at it. Not in here. Why

or how does the disease progress in us even after sometimes some long periods of sobriety? Really a m– a s– a question of science, a medical question about certain things that happen in the brain, um, that I’m not really gonna address because I’m not a professional in that field. What I can say this is, it is true.

Didn’t understand it at all when I was new, and they said, “It’s a progressive illness, Earl, and if you stop drinking for twenty-five years and you start drinking again, it’ll be as if you never stopped.” My immediate and heartfelt reaction to that was, “That is crap.” That made no sense to me whatsoever. And then I stuck around. And I saw it happen to man after woman, after man, after woman, after man, after woman.

And I’d ask them, says, “You know, you know, Bob went out. Where’d he go?” That was me in the beginning. “Where’d he go?” “He’s drinking.” “What do you mean he’s drinking? He was in a meeting with us last week.” “Well, yeah, well, he’s drinking this week.” I’m thinking, “I didn’t even know you could do that.

What are you telling me that for?” I think we should shoot Bob. ‘Cause Bob is scaring the crap out of me. “No, Earl, we’re not gonna shoot him. But when he comes back, we should talk to him ’cause he’s out there scouting it out, and we should see how it’s going.” “All right.” So we waited a couple of weeks, and Bob came back.

He’s back. We gotta get over there. So we go to Bob, and we say, “Bob, you were drinking?” He goes, “Yeah, Earl, I was drinking.” “Well, apparently, we, we, we wanna know how that went.” “Oh, Earl, it was nuts.

It was like falling off a cliff.” I said, “Did you have any fun at all?” He says, “About twenty minutes.” “How long were you out?” “Three weeks.” “Those aren’t good numbers, Bob.” “Even I know that.” And he s– I said, “Was it like you never stopped, Bob?” He said, “Yeah, and then worse.” I, I mean, alcoholic after alcoholic after a– just if you don’t believe me, stick around.

And when they go out and come back, go ask the guys that are doing it. What’s their experience? What I hear, uh, the great majority of the time is it is progressive. It is progressive.

As the book says, it gets worse, never better. No one has ever come back to me and said, “Earl, I went out for the weekend, and it was fabulous.” “I’m resting up and going out again next weekend. You’re welcome to join me.” Nobody has ever said that. And I can’t tell you how happy I am that they haven’t.

What is the biggest change in the way you see AA today as opposed to when you came in? It’s an opinion, unlike the rest of this. Um, what do I see as some, some of the big changes in AA? Well, I think that, um, some of the changes in AA that I’ve seen have to do with outside influences that have had an effect on AA.

I think there’s been a tremendous amount of, uh, public education as regards alcoholism and drug addiction in, in the United States, in the world, but primarily in the United States. And I think that there’s been a, a raising of the bar, if you will, in terms of a, a slow but persistent reduction in the stigma of alcoholism and drug addiction in the community.

As a result, I think a lot of people get to AA much earlier in the, in the continuum of their alcoholism. You know what I’m saying? That I think that a lot more people get here who are not low-bottom hope– alcoholics of the hopeless variety.

We get a lot of people in AA are willing to come to AA because there’s no real stigma attached to it anymore. F– I mean, there’s much less of a stigma attached to it. Are willing to come to AA having gotten a DUI or having gotten a little bit of a scare or, you know, the, the woman who’s recognized, “Oh my God, I was under the influence driving my kids to school,” uh, and that’s it, and I’m going to AA.

Um, whereas, um, that I don’t think as much of that higher bottom entering AA. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not one of these guys that thinks, um, the lower bottom alcoholic is on some way– in some way, shape, or form a better alcoholic than the high bottom guy. If you think about it, the guy who comes in here having created much less wreckage clearly is the smarter of the two.

Clearly is the guy who got the wake-up call, had the consciousness available to wrap his head around the need for change far earlier than the other guy. Good for him. No, you know, I-I’m not a guy who figures, “Well, you didn’t suffer enough. Get– get your ass back out there and bleed.” I’m not one of those guys, man.

If you’re here, wow, that’s amazing. You think you got alcoholism? You came here? Unbelievable.

Glad you made it. I don’t care if you drop, you know, you, you know, had a little sharing a teacup, dropped the cup by the pool, broke the cup, and come screaming into AA. Fine. Take a seat.

It’s not for me to judge what got you here. I’m the one that’s supposed to be thrilled you did. That’s all, right? So I think that we got– have gotten over the last ten, fifteen, twenty years, we’ve gotten– uh, AA has really swelled in its numbers.

And it’s my sense of things, just my sense of things, that AA is shrinking a little bit, and rightly so. Because what you gotta do to stay sober if you’re an alcoholic is simple, but it ain’t easy. And if the beast waiting for you ain’t there, and a big, bad, hairy, mean, mean creature, it’s a little easier to slide on back out.

You know? I mean, didn’t, you know, didn’t really get that. You know, it’s much– I mean, those of us that have seen, you know, complete mayhem in our lives are prone to saying, “You know, I think I’ve overreacted,” coming to AA right away. Can you imagine the guy who really hasn’t suffered any real consequences of a substantial nature who’s come in?

How much easier it is for that guy to go out there and try it some more. And I also think that AA on a, on a, on a profound level has begun to go underground again. I see this incredible surge of meetings in people’s homes. Six to eight, ten, twelve people getting around the fireplace and going over the big book together.

I see so much of that taking place, not in the meeting directories. It’s not– no– it’s, it’s going underground again. There’s, there’s a tremendous underground AA that’s, that’s growing and building. I also think that, uh, the, uh, Ikipa organizations, the young people in AA, is a, is a, is a remarkable organization doing remarkable work.

And I think that they, as much as anyone, are responsible right now for, um, some of the more positive numbers in AA. Those are my thoughts on how I’ve seen it change. I’ve also seen the average age in AA plummet over the last twenty-five years. When I got sober, I was twenty-eight years old, and I was the baby in the room.

Average age at Ohio Street was probably forty-eight, fifty years old. Now I go to Ohio Street, and I’m fifty-three years old, and I am the old man in the room. You know what I mean? They’re skateboarding in.

You know? You know? And I feel myself reacting like an old man, you know what I mean? When guys– these guys come skating in, come up, you know, and they look at me and they go, “What’s up, dude?” And I’m like, “Dude?

Who you calling dude, you little…” It’s like, “Oops, sorry. My name’s Earl. How you doing? How is everything?” What is the hardest thing you ever had to do in sobriety?

Bury my sponsor. I’ve been divorced. I’ve had f- I mean, a, a lot of… You know who you are.

You’re an idiot. I’m not reading that one. It’s got nothing to do with this. Nothing.

More? Yeah. Done? What do you wanna know?

More. More. More. Some of these?

Yeah. Clean up Don’s mess? Yeah. You hadn’t mentioned, you had mentioned the, the twelve columns in the fourth step.

Oh, me and Howard Poland. Yeah. Well, this is, this is fun. We got– There’s a guy in, in AA.

A lot of you– Do you know Howard P.? Yeah. Right? Great guy.

Great message. How long is he sober now? Thirty-five, something like that. Great guy.

Kind, gentle, funny. He’s a scientist, right? Howard Po- Howard P., Howard Poland. Lives in Arizona.

Great guy. Howard somewhere in the last few years decided that, that there– And th- first I’ll tell you what I believe. I believe in the big book. As Don discussed, there are three separate inventories of four columns each.

There is the resentment inventory. First column, who do I resent? Book tells you what categories go in there. Second column, why do I resent them?

Third column, what areas of my life are affected by this resentment? Seven things to choose from, right? Fourth column, what’s my part in it? Four suggested things to look at, right?

Right there. And there’s resentment. Fear, essentially the same. What am I afraid of?

Why am I afraid of it? What areas affect– The whole thing, right? Sexual inventory, four columns. Very different.

It’s not who have I slept with, who have I harmed sexually. It’s a very different category than we might think. I fill that out at four columns. I’ve got three columns, three inventories of four columns each, twelve columns.

Howard in the last few years– And Howard, one of the first guys I ever heard up at the podium when I was brand new, talking about that. At some point, Howard decided that this isn’t correct, and based on his deeper consideration of what is going on in the big book, that there are not three inventories of four columns each. There are four inventories of three columns each.

Ooh. Big controversy, right? And, and so me and a couple of my friends are– Me and this other guy, Steve, we’re twenty-five. We’re both twenty-five years sober.

We thought, “Well, we gotta mix it up with Howard. We gotta find out what the hell he’s talking about,” right? So we’re calling him up going, “Howard, what the hell are you talking about?” We just decided we’re gonna have fun with it, right? So we’re acting like we’re all up in arms about this.

And he n- but didn’t work ’cause he knows us. He knows we’re just screwing around. Trying to create controversy in AA. Jesus.

Right? And, a-a-and, and he, and he said, “Yes, there’s resentment inventory, the fear inventory as we’ve previously known. The sexual inventory certainly should remain on the table, but we are adding an inventory on selfishness and self-centeredness. That we think is the root of our troubles,” which is in the book.

Hell of a good point. Right? And he feels that the fourth column, when addressed in selfishness and self-centeredness, addresses what our part, in fact, is in this as a result of this selfishness and self-centeredness.

That that column, that fourth column of the three inventories, is moved into essentially a, a fourth inventory on selfishness and self-centeredness, and therein lies the deal, right? So either way you look at it, you got 12 columns. Right?

And what we’re doing here is splitting hairs. I’m a traditionalist. Howard is launching off into this new thing. And we ended up in a conference together.

And I, I would, I would say to him, you know, the… A- and whenever Howard would walk by, he’d kinda give me a little look, right? And I’d go… “Three inventories, hotshot.

I don’t care how long you’re sober, big boy.” And every time I… He’d walk by and he’d look at me. As he’s walking to the podium, he’d look over his shoulder at me and he’d go… And he’d walk to the podium, right?

“Shut up, you little pipsqueak. There’s four.” Back and forth and back and forth. This is the big controversy. This is two guys in AA going back and forth and back and forth about proper way to do the fourth step.

What controversy. The great debate, right? Couple of alcoholics deciding on how are we gonna get free, right? It’s a great debate.

I’m learning things arguing with Howard. I think Howard’s having a lot of fun with this. It’s all it is. I think…

And s- that’s the big whoop about Howard. And I love him to death. He’s a great man, and I love the way his brain works. So it’s all in good fun.

More? “I met a lot of guys who have been in AA a long time and are never happy. I’m very grateful for AA. Thanks.” Me too.

I couldn’t agree with this guy more. And I, and you know what? You’d have to ask them why they’re so unhappy. I don’t know.

I, you know, I don’t know that everybody’s goal in life is to be happy. Some people don’t seem… It’s not big on their list, you know? Different strokes for different folks.

What do we got here? H- how do you respond to an A– a sponsee who is or believes himself to be a confirmed atheist? He attends daily meetings, is sober for a year, but will not participate in the steps due to their focus on a god he does not believe in. Thanks.

Great question. Ripe for controversy. I will not shy away. First off, a, a, a sponsee who believes himself to be a confirmed atheist.

My res- if somebody says to me, “I’m an atheist,” I say, “Okay.” “I’m not,” you know. “Now let’s open the book and work the steps.” “I can’t do that. There’s God everywhere.” M- m- no, we can do the steps. And I tell them about the great, wonderful, late Gloria Scott, who died twenty-three years sober three years ago.

Gloria Scott was a, just, just an insanely committed atheist, right? She said, “If there’s a higher power, it’s Neil Young.” That was her. And when she died, she stayed sober for twenty-three years. Never would say the Lord’s Prayer at the meetings.

She’d hold hands with us because she loved us. She’d hold hands with us, but she wouldn’t say the Lord’s Prayer. Nobody took offense to it. Donald, she was sponsored by Donald.

She saw what I had with Donald and she said, “I want what they have.” And she came and she said to Donald, “Will you spon– And you don’t know who I am, but I want you to sponsor me.” He said, “Oh, I know who you are. Sit down.” And she said, “That’s my guy right there.” I love that. And he sponsored her for probably ten years, and she and I became very close.

Gloria never drove a car. On occasion, w- and, and we had guys who would go and pick her up and take her back h- doing homework and this and that and the other thing. She became like our sobriety sister. And, uh, um, Donald always said, “One day we’re gonna get you to say the Lord’s Prayer.

Just say it with us. We know you won’t mean it. We know you don’t believe in it. But you’ll say it with us anyway, just so you don’t have to separate yourself out and you can just go ahead and be a part of.” All right?

And, uh, when Donald died, Gloria came to Donald’s memorial, and she held hands with us and said the Lord’s Prayer at Donald’s memorial service. That’s the only time she ever said it. She said it for him. And when she died, there was a memorial service for her.

And, uh, um, we were all there, and there was a guy that got up and said, “I know Gloria was an atheist, but I also know that her… If ever there was a life that was a beautiful example of love and service to others,” which I can’t think of a better definition of a spiritual life, “it was Gloria’s.” Gloria’s function in life was love and service to others. Our code of love and tolerance was very important to her.

And Gloria was in- instrumental in sponsoring and helping l- a great number of women. I mean, and the range of women that she dealt with was remarkable. Gang bangers to bankers, you know what I mean? Who flocked to Gloria and her love of AA.

But she was an atheist. I used to, uh, um… When I got here, I was telling Donald that I was an atheist, and I would go on about God this and God that, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. And one point, Donald looked at me and he said, “Earl, you can’t be mad at a God you don’t believe in.” Yeah.

And he loved doing that to me, by the way. I just looked at him and went, “I gotta go home.” What is it? How do you do that? And I realized that I did have a relationship with God.

It was just a bad one based on my bad attitude, my judgment, my lack of, of, of clarity. Um, but if, if you got a sponsee who’s an atheist, my thing is, okay. He says he’s been sober for a year, but he will not participate in the steps. I would suggest to him that you don’t need to, uh, uh, necessarily believe in God to begin to wrestle with the steps as outlined in The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.

And I would say make a beginning. Your, your, your atheism is documented. Now let’s wrestle with this. And, and, and see if he’s willing to do that.

Um, if he’s not, I would suggest that there is a contempt prior to investigation. In the back of the book, Herbert Spencer says, “The only thing that will keep a man in everlasting ignorance is contempt prior to investigation.” I’d just chip away at him. That’s what I’d do. It can’t feel good, man.

It cannot feel good shaking your fist. “I’m sober. I’m in AA, but I’m not working the steps.”