Conversation 5-27-2025 presented by Unknown Speaker – 2025-05-27

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Unknown Tuesday Night History Workshop • 2025

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Unknown ABOUT THIS WORKSHOP

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Unknown Unknown Speaker speaking on "Conversation 5-27-2025" in Tuesday Night History Workshop (May 27, 2025). This recording is preserved in high-fidelity with interactive scrolling transcripts.

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Unknown Interactive Transcript

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[00 00:02.819 – 00:00:06.879] Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop.

0:16

[00 00:06.879 – 00:00:10.460] Um, thank you everyone for joining us tonight.

0:19

[00 00:10.460 – 00:00:19.660] My name is Tim, and tonight is the last Tuesday of May, so it is our night for a conversation with a long-timer.

0:28

[00 00:19.660 – 00:00:23.140] And tonight we have Gary A.

0:30

[00 00:23.140 – 00:00:25.280] from Durango, Colorado.

0:32

[00 00:25.280 – 00:00:32.020] And Gary's sobriety date is July 13th, 1966.

0:34

[00 00:32.020 – 00:00:37.820] And we meet every Tuesday night at the same time and at the same Zoom ID number.

0:41

[00 00:37.820 – 00:00:47.000] And I do want to share for next month, our conversation with a long-timer, June 24th, is Jimmy D.

0:48

[00 00:47.000 – 00:00:53.159] from Long Island, and Jimmy's sobriety date is July 31st, 1969.

0:52

[00 00:53.159 – 00:00:57.939] And this meeting is being recorded.

0:54

[00 00:57.939 – 00:01:06.019] The audio from tonight's presentation as well as all of our past presentations can be found at recoveryspeakers.com.

1:01

[00 01:06.019 – 00:01:16.579] And, uh, this meeting is not affiliated with any 12-step organization, although our goal is to focus on the history

1:09

[00 01:16.579 – 00:01:19.200] of AA and other 12-step fellowships.

1:11

[00 01:19.200 – 00:01:29.500] Recoveryspeakers.com is dedicated to preserving and making the audio history of AA and the 12-step movement available for everyone

1:19

[00 01:29.500 – 00:01:30.959] today and in the future.

1:21

[00 01:30.959 – 00:01:37.879] We share a daily email that features a different speaker talk from the Recovery Speakers audio library.

1:27

[00 01:37.879 – 00:01:48.040] And included in the daily emails are links to the recordings of this meeting, as well as flyers for upcoming presentations.

1:35

[00 01:48.040 – 00:01:58.140] And if you would like to receive our daily email, you can subscribe through the link I will be sharing in the chat in just a moment, or you can send me an

1:47

[00 01:58.140 – 00:02:03.700] email at info@recoveryspeakers.com and I will get you added to our email list.

1:52

[00 02:03.700 – 00:02:09.360] And Recovery Speakers is an official 501[c]3 public charity.

1:56

[00 02:09.360 – 00:02:19.379] If you are able to, we accept contributions which allow us to continue our work, and I have up on the screen a QR code that brings you to our donation page, and

2:08

[00 02:19.379 – 00:02:23.419] I will also be, uh, sending a link in the chat in just a moment.

2:14

[00 02:23.419 – 00:02:28.439] And we greatly appreciate any, uh, support.

2:16

[00 02:28.439 – 00:02:39.439] Um, tonight we should have some time for Q&A at the end of the meeting, so if you have any questions, please write them down and be prepared to ask questions at the end.

2:29

[00 02:39.439 – 00:02:49.520] And one announcement I wanted to share with you all right here, uh, coming up Saturday, June 7th, it is the, uh, 74th

2:38

[00 02:49.520 – 00:02:58.759] Annual Stepping Stones, uh, Lois's Family Groups Picnic, and all the information is on the flyer here that's up on the screen.

2:46

[00 02:58.759 – 00:03:00.939] And there is both, uh, English and Spanish.

2:49

[00 03:00.939 – 00:03:05.219] I will be sharing both of these flyers in the chat for everyone in just a minute.

2:55

[00 03:05.219 – 00:03:08.719] And that is it for me.

2:58

[00 03:08.719 – 00:03:11.520] I am going to go ahead and turn it right over to Penny.

3:03

[00 03:11.520 – 00:03:20.319] And thank you so much for continuing to share these conversations with us, and, uh, looking forward to tonight's.

3:10

[00 03:20.319 – 00:03:23.199] Thanks, Tim.

3:11

[00 03:23.199 – 00:03:23.759] Hi, y'all.

3:12

[00 03:23.759 – 00:03:24.319] I'm Penny P.

3:13

[00 03:24.319 – 00:03:25.539] I'm an alcoholic.

3:15

[00 03:25.539 – 00:03:30.280] And, uh, this is the conversation with a long-timer.

3:18

[00 03:30.280 – 00:03:34.080] All of our long-timers have, uh, 50-plus years of sobriety.

3:22

[00 03:34.080 – 00:03:44.080] And, um, for those of you who may not have been to this meeting before, it, it came about as a result of,

3:30

[00 03:44.080 – 00:03:46.800] um, another meeting here at Recovery Speakers.

3:33

[00 03:46.800 – 00:03:48.759] Um, our friend Nancy K.

3:35

[00 03:48.759 – 00:03:59.759] was doing a talk on, um, AA pioneers, and there were a bunch of questions that people had about our pioneers that nobody could answer

3:45

[00 03:59.759 – 00:04:00.620] with us anymore.

3:46

[00 04:00.620 – 00:04:02.719] And I'm sitting here thinking, "Wait a minute.

3:49

[00 04:02.719 – 00:04:04.439] What about the long-timers we have?

3:52

[00 04:04.439 – 00:04:08.300] Let's talk to them." And so as a result of that, we, uh...

3:57

[00 04:08.300 – 00:04:18.459] I went to Mike and Tim and asked if I could use their Zoom room one, one night a month, I'm not committing to more than that, and, um,

4:07

[00 04:18.459 – 00:04:24.699] and invite long-timers to come and share and, and, uh, have a little conversation with them.

4:13

[00 04:24.699 – 00:04:26.579] It is a little different style.

4:16

[00 04:26.579 – 00:04:29.759] I will be asking them questions.

4:18

[00 04:29.759 – 00:04:39.779] Um, I know that someone was really upset with me one time because I was talking while they were telling their story, and, and, uh, so I needed to explain

4:29

[00 04:39.779 – 00:04:41.379] that's the format for this meeting.

4:32

[00 04:41.379 – 00:04:47.339] So tonight, um, our guest is, uh, Gary A.

4:35

[00 04:47.339 – 00:04:54.259] from, uh, Colorado, with a sobriety date of, uh, July 13th, 1966.

4:39

[00 04:54.259 – 00:05:04.259] And Gary, if you would like to unmute and come in and introduce yourself, give us your name, your home group, your sobriety date, and, uh, and we'll

4:50

[00 05:04.259 – 00:05:04.939] go from there.

4:51

[00 05:04.939 – 00:05:06.740] Yeah.

4:52

[00 05:06.740 – 00:05:07.920] Hi, uh, Gary.

4:53

[00 05:07.920 – 00:05:09.680] I'm powerless over alcohol and drugs.

4:56

[00 05:09.680 – 00:05:15.100] And, um, yeah, my sobriety date's July 13th, 1966.

4:59

[00 05:15.100 – 00:05:25.579] I came in the program March of '66, and, uh, uh, eventually sobered up a few months later, so.

5:06

[00 05:25.579 – 00:05:27.600] Okay.

5:06

[00 05:27.600 – 00:05:33.000] Oh, my group is, uh, Durango Central Group here in, uh, Durango, Colorado.

5:11

[00 05:33.000 – 00:05:34.620] Okie doke.

5:12

[00 05:34.620 – 00:05:36.920] Okay.

5:13

[00 05:36.920 – 00:05:40.120] So you came in in March of '66.

5:16

[00 05:40.120 – 00:05:41.060] That's a good start.

5:18

[00 05:41.060 – 00:05:41.899] Let's start there.

5:19

[00 05:41.899 – 00:05:52.160] What was going on in March of 1966 that you said, "Oh, what the heck, maybe I'll go to Alcoholics Anonymous?"

5:27

[00 05:53.079 – 00:06:05.329] Well, I'd, I'd been on about a week and a half, two-week bender right after my 23rd birthday, and, uh, which was in late February, and I wound up, uh, um,

5:38

[00 06:05.329 – 00:06:09.019] sobering up over in a Don prison in, uh, Toronto, Canada.

5:42

[00 06:09.019 – 00:06:19.500] The police had pulled me over, so I came back to, uh, Detroit area and, uh, I was confronted with I'd been kiting checks for

5:52

[00 06:19.500 – 00:06:20.360] a couple of weeks.

5:53

[00 06:20.360 – 00:06:28.899] I'd been, um, not going to my National Guard meetings, and my mother was gonna throw me out of the house, and that's what scared me the most.

6:04

[00 06:28.899 – 00:06:33.060] So she insisted I talk to somebody from AA.

6:07

[00 06:33.060 – 00:06:35.620] She'd been telling me for a while that I had a drinking problem.

6:12

[00 06:35.620 – 00:06:36.839] So I did.

6:13

[00 06:36.839 – 00:06:40.060] I talked to a fellow from AA, and I went to a meeting the next night.

6:19

[00 06:40.060 – 00:06:44.800] So, uh, and that started my career in, in AA.

6:23

[00 06:44.800 – 00:06:50.480] Uh, I went to the Wyandotte, uh, group, the Glenwood group.

6:28

[00 06:50.480 – 00:06:52.459] I don't even know if that's still around.

6:31

[00 06:52.459 – 00:06:53.040] It might be.

6:32

[00 06:53.040 – 00:06:57.439] But anyway, I started, I went to my very first meeting at the, uh, Glenwood group.

6:38

[00 06:57.439 – 00:07:07.579] And one of the things that I talk about that, um, why I continued to go to AA is, um, I was

6:46

[00 07:07.579 – 00:07:08.600] late to the meeting.

6:48

[00 07:08.600 – 00:07:09.939] I went to the wrong church.

6:51

[00 07:09.939 – 00:07:13.899] And then I finally wound up, you know, in the right church basement.

6:55

[00 07:13.899 – 00:07:23.680] But, um, I walked in the door and a couple of guys came, you know, saw me, and they came from the tables where they were having their meetings.

7:06

[00 07:23.680 – 00:07:29.620] They came over there and they said, "Hi, I'm glad to see you." And I was wondering, "How the hell do you know who I am?

7:16

[00 07:29.620 – 00:07:31.959] You don't even know my name yet." So

7:19

[00 07:32.096 – 00:07:40.336] So I experienced, uh, the love of one alcoholic for another, and what I also call communion.

7:25

[00 07:40.336 – 00:07:50.576] Uh, you know, I was raised in a church, and they had communion, but it sure as hell wasn't anything like the kind of communion, community, and the ability to commune

7:36

[00 07:50.576 – 00:07:54.096] with another individual like I found in AA, so.

7:40

[00 07:54.096 – 00:08:01.716] And I, I, uh, figured AA would teach me how to control my drinking, and AA failed miserably.

7:47

[00 08:01.716 – 00:08:10.916] Uh, it took me four months of continuing to drink, do drugs, go to meetings all the time, uh, even be coffee maker and all that.

7:56

[00 08:10.916 – 00:08:18.637] I hated it because I, I had to leave the bar to go to the meeting to make coffee an hour before the meeting.

8:05

[00 08:18.637 – 00:08:21.617] So AA did disrupt my drinking a little bit.

8:08

[00 08:21.617 – 00:08:26.177] And then finally on July 13th, I, I had my last drink, so.

8:13

[00 08:26.177 – 00:08:30.557] So, um, March of 1966.

8:15

[00 08:30.557 – 00:08:34.096] 196- I remember 1966 in the...

8:17

[00 08:34.096 – 00:08:36.437] I, I was in the Detroit area at that time.

8:21

[00 08:36.437 – 00:08:39.076] I was, um, a little bit younger than you.

8:25

[00 08:39.076 – 00:08:42.236] Not a whole lot younger than you, but a little bit younger than you.

8:30

[00 08:42.236 – 00:08:49.116] And, um, so what did you know about alcohol?

8:34

[00 08:49.116 – 00:08:59.116] Had someone talked to you about Alcoholics Anonymous before this, or what did you know about Alcoholics Anonymous before you came to your first meeting then,

8:43

[00 08:59.116 – 00:09:00.677] before you talked to this guy?

8:46

[00 09:00.677 – 00:09:02.157] Did you know anything about AA?

8:48

[00 09:02.157 – 00:09:07.856] No, other than my mother, you know, kept telling me I had to go to AA, so.

8:54

[00 09:07.856 – 00:09:08.396] Okay.

8:55

[00 09:08.396 – 00:09:09.567] Um- Okay ...

8:56

[00 09:09.567 – 00:09:12.277] and I, I, you know, I was, I was pretty young.

9:00

[00 09:12.277 – 00:09:16.017] And I can't say I was necessarily a daily drinker, but you know, I, I...

9:06

[00 09:16.017 – 00:09:20.576] The, the last few weeks of my drinking it was daily.

9:10

[00 09:20.576 – 00:09:27.836] Prior to that, you know, I, I was pretty much a weekend drinker or, you know, uh, during the week, that sort of thing.

9:19

[00 09:27.836 – 00:09:32.437] I- But every time I drank, pretty much for the most part I couldn't stop.

9:25

[00 09:32.437 – 00:09:33.096] I got drunk.

9:26

[00 09:33.096 – 00:09:36.697] And you got arrested across the river in Windsor?

9:30

[00 09:36.697 – 00:09:37.736] Yeah.

9:30

[00 09:37.736 – 00:09:46.267] Yeah, I was on this week and a half, two-week bender, and, uh, I figured I had to get out of the country- ...

9:39

[00 09:46.267 – 00:09:50.057] before I got caught, you know, for kiting the checks that I was kiting.

9:44

[00 09:50.057 – 00:10:00.136] And, uh, uh, I got pulled over in Toronto and, uh, put in the Don Prison for a week for, uh, essentially driv- driving under the influence or something

9:55

[00 10:00.136 – 00:10:00.656] like that.

9:56

[00 10:00.656 – 00:10:04.136] So I don't know how I was gonna do the- Boy, if you're gonna get, if you're gonna get drunk, let's go to Toronto.

10:05

[00 10:04.136 – 00:10:05.817] What a great city to get drunk in.

10:08

[00 10:05.817 – 00:10:07.336] I got drunk in Toronto.

10:10

[00 10:07.336 – 00:10:11.636] I usually just went across the r- I didn't get drunk in Toronto.

10:15

[00 10:11.636 – 00:10:13.206] I got arrested in Toronto.

10:17

[00 10:13.206 – 00:10:21.146] I usually just went across the river to Windsor to drink because I could get served there, and I couldn't always- Right ...

10:25

[00 10:21.146 – 00:10:22.667] get served at home.

10:27

[00 10:22.667 – 00:10:22.956] Right.

10:27

[00 10:22.956 – 00:10:24.257] Exactly.

10:28

[00 10:24.257 – 00:10:24.797] Yeah.

10:29

[00 10:24.797 – 00:10:35.456] So, so you came to your first meeting, and I wanna, I wanna touch on something that you said when you talked about getting to your first meeting, 'cause my experience,

10:40

[00 10:35.456 – 00:10:42.396] it's kind of, it's kind of unique to the Detroit area, the, the Michigan area.

10:46

[00 10:42.396 – 00:10:45.456] You said the guys got up from one of the tables.

10:50

[00 10:45.456 – 00:10:46.076] Yeah.

10:51

[00 10:46.076 – 00:10:50.417] And the, the meetings in Michigan have table meetings.

10:54

[00 10:50.417 – 00:10:51.057] Right.

10:55

[00 10:51.057 – 00:10:55.557] And, and I've, I've not run into those in a whole lot of other places.

11:01

[00 10:55.557 – 00:11:01.656] Would you share about what, how that's set up for the meetings in Mich- in the Detroit area?

11:07

[00 11:01.656 – 00:11:03.797] Yeah.

11:08

[00 11:03.797 – 00:11:11.057] Uh, the, the Glenwood group in particular, that church basement had dividers.

11:13

[00 11:11.057 – 00:11:21.096] So we would have, uh, tables where there would be 10 or 12 people that sat at a table, and a chairperson would, uh, chair the

11:21

[00 11:21.096 – 00:11:22.656] meeting for that table.

11:23

[00 11:22.656 – 00:11:32.716] And, uh, depending on how big the meeting was, and that was a larger group, it was probably easily, um, 40 people, so

11:31

[00 11:32.716 – 00:11:34.557] figure about four tables.

11:33

[00 11:34.557 – 00:11:38.456] And, um, that's how we would have our meeting.

11:37

[00 11:38.456 – 00:11:42.517] At the end of the meeting everybody would get up and then, you know, say the Lord's Prayer at the end.

11:44

[00 11:42.517 – 00:11:42.836] So.

11:45

[00 11:42.836 – 00:11:43.677] Yeah.

11:46

[00 11:43.677 – 00:11:50.096] So you really didn't know what was going on at the other tables, uh, or what the topic was or what they were talking about, so.

11:55

[00 11:50.096 – 00:11:55.037] And I always said the other tables always sounded like they were having more fun.

12:01

[00 11:55.037 – 00:11:57.807] I always wind up sitting at the wrong tables- ...

12:05

[00 11:57.807 – 00:11:59.937] when I go to meetings in the Detroit area.

12:08

[00 11:59.937 – 00:12:00.616] Yeah.

12:09

[00 12:00.616 – 00:12:05.616] And there's, there's usually a first step table, a newcomer's table.

12:13

[00 12:05.616 – 00:12:05.626] Yeah.

12:14

[00 12:05.626 – 00:12:08.416] And there's usually a men's table and a women's table.

12:18

[00 12:08.416 – 00:12:12.956] And, uh, and then, and then a step table.

12:21

[00 12:12.956 – 00:12:14.896] There's, there's almost always, you...

12:23

[00 12:14.896 – 00:12:18.836] What is the, what's the, the little folder thing that the...

12:27

[00 12:18.836 – 00:12:21.376] Is it called the table mate, or what is it called?

12:32

[00 12:21.376 – 00:12:24.697] The Detroit pamphlet that talks about the steps.

12:35

[00 12:24.697 – 00:12:28.937] You know the- Oh, I don't, I don't recall that, what, what that was.

12:40

[00 12:28.937 – 00:12:31.757] I, I was more downriver, you know.

12:43

[00 12:31.757 – 00:12:31.866] Okay.

12:44

[00 12:31.866 – 00:12:34.476] Uh, Wyandotte, Flat Rock, Monroe.

12:46

[00 12:34.476 – 00:12:35.956] Um- Okay.

12:47

[00 12:35.956 – 00:12:38.096] Yeah, further south than me.

12:49

[00 12:38.096 – 00:12:39.076] Right.

12:50

[00 12:39.076 – 00:12:39.616] Right.

12:50

[00 12:39.616 – 00:12:46.576] And you know, I, I would go to meetings in the city, um, uh, on occasion.

12:56

[00 12:46.576 – 00:12:55.197] And then, um, we finally started a young people's group, uh, after a couple years, and that was, uh, you know, right downtown Detroit.

13:05

[00 12:55.197 – 00:13:00.177] And that was a Saturday evening meeting, but that was just one big group discussion.

13:11

[00 13:00.177 – 00:13:01.937] Okay.

13:12

[00 13:01.937 – 00:13:05.317] So yeah, 'cause you were very young when you got sober.

13:16

[00 13:05.317 – 00:13:07.677] Were you the youngest one in the room when you came in?

13:20

[00 13:07.677 – 00:13:10.336] Oh, yeah, definitely.

13:22

[00 13:10.336 – 00:13:15.636] The closest guy in age, um, was 36 years old to me.

13:26

[00 13:15.636 – 00:13:18.376] So, uh, yeah.

13:27

[00 13:18.376 – 00:13:21.126] That's- But there were a lot of old timers there too, so.

13:32

[00 13:21.126 – 00:13:21.636] Yeah.

13:33

[00 13:21.636 – 00:13:23.697] It's funny to think of that now, isn't it?

13:36

[00 13:23.697 – 00:13:25.237] That we were- You're right ...

13:38

[00 13:25.237 – 00:13:27.257] that we were so young when we got here.

13:42

[00 13:27.257 – 00:13:32.076] So- Yeah, I think they took bets on me whether I'd make it or not.

13:48

[00 13:32.076 – 00:13:36.136] Well, yeah, and, and you come in in March, and you're not getting sober 'til July.

13:54

[00 13:36.136 – 00:13:37.866] So there's- Right ...

13:55

[00 13:37.866 – 00:13:40.995] some folks thinking that they're gonna get a payout.

13:58

[00 13:40.995 – 00:13:47.896] So you said you didn't like to be the coffee maker 'cause you had to leave the bar, so you were Exactly.

14:07

[00 13:47.896 – 00:13:50.596] Okay.

14:07

[00 13:50.596 – 00:13:51.966] Yep.

14:08

[00 13:51.966 – 00:13:55.416] And, uh, so then in July you finally get sober.

14:12

[00 13:55.416 – 00:14:04.586] Was there anything that you can identify that, that happened, or was it just a, you know, "I'm just tired of this," or what was it that happened that was different for you?

14:24

[00 14:04.586 – 00:14:11.057] Well, yeah, I was resistant to the spiritual, um, premise of the AA program.

14:29

[00 14:11.057 – 00:14:12.836] I didn't wanna have anything to do with that.

14:33

[00 14:12.836 – 00:14:17.916] And, um, and I, I, like I say, I felt I was too young.

14:38

[00 14:17.916 – 00:14:20.317] I could probably still control it.

14:40

[00 14:20.317 – 00:14:22.346] Maybe I'd learn something, you know, in AA.

14:44

[00 14:22.346 – 00:14:31.476] And, uh, and actually the, the, the last day from my la- I woke up in my car.

14:50

[00 14:31.476 – 00:14:40.956] I'd been across the river over in Amherstburg, Canada the night before and drinking, and, uh, then I re- I woke up back stateside.

14:59

[00 14:40.956 – 00:14:50.836] I lived on an island down in the Detroit River, and, uh, I woke up in my car parked next to, uh, um, my local drinking haunt.

15:09

[00 14:50.836 – 00:14:58.537] And, uh, uh, all I could see on the wall was this image of life sober, death drunk.

15:16

[00 14:58.537 – 00:14:59.876] Life sober, death drunk.

15:17

[00 14:59.876 – 00:15:03.987] And, uh, I just couldn't make a choice between the two.

15:22

[00 15:04.586 – 00:15:09.286] You know, it wasn't a matter of, uh, of, you know, choosing between the two.

15:27

[00 15:09.286 – 00:15:12.605] It was a matter of accepting that reality, that fact.

15:31

[00 15:12.605 – 00:15:13.296] You know?

15:32

[00 15:13.296 – 00:15:15.506] It's, it's either one of two ways.

15:35

[00 15:15.506 – 00:15:21.966] Um, and both those things, you know, continue to exist in, to, in my life today.

15:41

[00 15:21.966 – 00:15:23.406] Life sober or death drunk.

15:43

[00 15:23.406 – 00:15:26.506] Um, that's just the way it worked for me.

15:47

[00 15:26.506 – 00:15:34.926] And I, I, I went in the bar and, uh, I ordered a beer, and I s- took a drink, and it tasted like water.

15:56

[00 15:34.926 – 00:15:40.586] And I did something I rarely ever have done, was I got up and left, you know?

16:02

[00 15:40.586 – 00:15:41.076] Yeah.

16:03

[00 15:41.076 – 00:15:44.105] And I like to think that beer is still there waiting for me, you know?

16:09

[00 15:44.105 – 00:15:45.466] I haven't finished drinking yet.

16:11

[00 15:45.466 – 00:15:47.686] Yeah.

16:11

[00 15:47.686 – 00:15:49.346] But I'm not gonna start today.

16:14

[00 15:49.346 – 00:15:58.946] So you g- um, you're going to this meeting in, um, in Wyandotte, the g- uh, Glenwood Group.

16:21

[00 15:58.946 – 00:15:59.626] Right.

16:21

[00 15:59.626 – 00:16:01.506] And, um, do you...

16:23

[00 16:01.506 – 00:16:05.666] How many meetings a week did they have at the Glenwood Group?

16:28

[00 16:05.666 – 00:16:09.726] Was it one of those places that had a meeting every night, or- No, no.

16:33

[00 16:09.726 – 00:16:11.746] Okay One, one meeting, Wednesday.

16:35

[00 16:11.746 – 00:16:17.046] And then Flat Rock, I think we had a meeting on Tu- down in a church there.

16:42

[00 16:17.046 – 00:16:23.466] I think we had two meetings a week there, a Friday and a, um, a Tuesday.

16:48

[00 16:23.466 – 00:16:30.365] And then Monroe, we had, uh, you know, a few, few meetings down in that area, too, so.

16:55

[00 16:30.365 – 00:16:31.105] Yeah.

16:55

[00 16:31.105 – 00:16:36.206] So did, um, did you get a sponsor right away?

16:59

[00 16:36.206 – 00:16:38.066] Did they talk to you about sponsorship?

17:02

[00 16:38.066 – 00:16:38.816] Well- Talk to you about the steps?

17:05

[00 16:38.816 – 00:16:43.326] Yeah, the guy that 12-stepped me, Rip, wound up being my sponsor.

17:09

[00 16:43.326 – 00:16:46.026] And actually, I kinda bounced around.

17:12

[00 16:46.026 – 00:16:51.946] There were a couple of, two, three guys that I, I sort of spread myself around with those guys.

17:19

[00 16:51.946 – 00:16:55.446] Um, but Rip primarily was my sponsor.

17:22

[00 16:55.446 – 00:17:05.446] And, um, uh, I, I, uh, I, I did, you know, my inventory and that

17:27

[00 17:05.446 – 00:17:06.365] with him.

17:28

[00 17:06.365 – 00:17:06.395] Yeah.

17:29

[00 17:06.395 – 00:17:07.385] And shared with him.

17:31

[00 17:07.385 – 00:17:09.666] But there were other- So- ...

17:33

[00 17:09.666 – 00:17:16.865] fellas in the program that, uh, that I felt comfortable with, and that I, I shared a lot of my experience with, too.

17:41

[00 17:16.865 – 00:17:23.006] So did they, did Rip take you through the steps using The Big Book?

17:47

[00 17:23.006 – 00:17:31.186] The 12x12 was just, what, 13 years old at that point, so it was accepted literature by that point.

17:53

[00 17:31.186 – 00:17:32.135] How did you- Yeah, we- ...

17:56

[00 17:32.135 – 00:17:33.436] go through, how did he take you through the steps?

17:59

[00 17:33.436 – 00:17:34.625] No, we didn't do it that way.

18:02

[00 17:34.625 – 00:17:44.506] Uh, I mean, he, we would have times where we got together and that, but primarily it was getting me to do, you know, an inventory and that, and then sharing it, so.

18:14

[00 17:44.506 – 00:17:45.286] Okay.

18:15

[00 17:45.286 – 00:17:47.065] There wasn't, uh...

18:16

[00 17:47.065 – 00:17:50.546] I, I don't wanna say we used that format.

18:20

[00 17:50.546 – 00:17:52.966] I, I didn't use that format, I'll put it that way.

18:24

[00 17:52.966 – 00:17:57.046] I made a list and I, I had, you know, names of people.

18:29

[00 17:57.046 – 00:18:06.186] I had, you know, what, what the problem was, the offense or however, and, and how it affected me, you know, and all that sort of thing.

18:39

[00 18:06.186 – 00:18:08.466] So, you know, from my viewpoints.

18:41

[00 18:08.466 – 00:18:09.956] Mm-hmm.

18:42

[00 18:09.956 – 00:18:15.846] And then what kind of, uh, service commitments did you wind up having, other than being the coffee maker?

18:49

[00 18:15.846 – 00:18:19.686] Well, I would, I would chair meetings.

18:52

[00 18:19.686 – 00:18:26.686] I, um, I never did any, uh, district, um, type stuff or anything like that.

18:58

[00 18:26.686 – 00:18:36.865] Um, and I didn't get involved in that until I moved into the Ann Arbor Ypsilanti area, and, and then I, I was a district, uh,

19:07

[00 18:36.865 – 00:18:39.105] rep there for a while, and that.

19:10

[00 18:39.105 – 00:18:43.365] When did you move to, uh, Ann Arbor Ypsi?

19:14

[00 18:43.365 – 00:18:46.865] Um, in 19...

19:15

[00 18:46.865 – 00:18:48.846] um, 1970.

19:15

[00 18:48.846 – 00:18:51.276] So about four years sober.

19:17

[00 18:51.276 – 00:18:53.326] 1971, something like that, yeah.

19:19

[00 18:53.326 – 00:18:54.605] Okay.

19:20

[00 18:54.605 – 00:18:58.826] And, um, and what kind...

19:22

[00 18:58.826 – 00:19:04.326] And so, but before that, y- you were chairing meetings, you were being of service at your group.

19:29

[00 19:04.326 – 00:19:05.086] Right.

19:29

[00 19:05.086 – 00:19:06.766] And- And I would do 12-step work.

19:32

[00 19:06.766 – 00:19:08.595] 'Cause back then- So- ...

19:34

[00 19:08.595 – 00:19:19.066] you know, that was pretty much, I mean, you, you, people would call into the AA hotline, and a couple of us would go out and, you know, go pick up a guy and

19:46

[00 19:19.066 – 00:19:22.885] talk to him about the program and that, encourage them to come to a meeting, so.

19:52

[00 19:22.885 – 00:19:29.706] And did, did any of the guys that you went out and talked with, did they stay sober?

19:59

[00 19:29.706 – 00:19:31.885] Um- That you remember ...

20:01

[00 19:31.885 – 00:19:32.286] oh, yeah.

20:02

[00 19:32.286 – 00:19:42.326] Yeah, I think the success rate back then in the program was, you know, we used that, uh, 50%, you know, stay sober right

20:10

[00 19:42.326 – 00:19:48.385] after the first time they ever went to a meeting or get 12-stepped, and, and then 25% go out and drink again.

20:18

[00 19:48.385 – 00:19:56.425] But, you know, that 25% eventually sobers up, and then the other 25% just don't seem to be able to make it sober.

20:26

[00 19:56.425 – 00:19:56.896] Mm-hmm.

20:27

[00 19:56.896 – 00:20:01.206] I don't know that those statistics ring true today.

20:30

[00 20:01.206 – 00:20:04.746] I think they're probably a little lower in terms of success rate.

20:35

[00 20:04.746 – 00:20:09.526] But, you know, back then there weren't that many people in the program.

20:40

[00 20:09.526 – 00:20:19.706] When I came in, um, uh, I think cen- central office had just, uh, had, we had

20:46

[00 20:19.706 – 00:20:24.226] 250,000 people in AA worldwide, so.

20:48

[00 20:24.226 – 00:20:34.885] Um, and I think it was the next year, '67 or something, they said, "Oh, it jumped up to 325,000 or something worldwide." So

20:57

[00 20:34.885 – 00:20:43.706] six, 1966, you got sober on the second edition of the big book, and, um- Right ...

21:02

[00 20:43.706 – 00:20:50.706] okay, because the third edition came out in '76, and then the fourth in 2001.

21:07

[00 20:50.706 – 00:21:00.756] Um, so talk about, would you be willing to talk about, can you remember a couple of those 12-step calls you went out on, and,

21:17

[00 21:00.756 – 00:21:04.566] and, um, who went with you and, and what it was like?

21:21

[00 21:04.566 – 00:21:10.026] 'Cause there's people who have, there's people on this meeting who've never been on a 12-step call like that.

21:28

[00 21:10.026 – 00:21:11.666] Oh, really?

21:29

[00 21:11.666 – 00:21:15.226] So, um, yeah.

21:31

[00 21:15.226 – 00:21:19.346] Normally, you know, we would, we would, it would be two of us.

21:36

[00 21:19.346 – 00:21:23.326] Um, we'd go out, and it would normally be, you know, a man.

21:41

[00 21:23.326 – 00:21:33.625] Um, it wasn't unusual to occasionally, you know, do a 12-step call of someone of the opposite sex if there wasn't anybody else available,

21:49

[00 21:33.625 – 00:21:37.405] so, um, uh, but that was, that was fairly rare.

21:53

[00 21:37.405 – 00:21:47.646] And, um, as far as people, um, staying sober, I think it, you know, for the people that,

22:00

[00 21:47.646 – 00:21:55.905] that we 12-stepped, um, the, the, uh, it, it pretty well stuck to the statistics that I had mentioned earlier.

22:07

[00 21:55.905 – 00:21:59.385] Did you...

22:09

[00 21:59.385 – 00:22:00.686] Now, I know that Dr.

22:11

[00 22:00.686 – 00:22:04.816] Bob was of course already gone by the time you got sober, but- Right ...

22:16

[00 22:04.816 – 00:22:14.195] we, we have one of the birthplaces, one of the important birthplaces of Alcoholics Anonymous not that far south of you, if you're down- Right ...

22:25

[00 22:14.195 – 00:22:15.326] in the Monroe area.

22:27

[00 22:15.326 – 00:22:20.256] Did you guys go down to Akron for, um, any activities?

22:31

[00 22:20.256 – 00:22:22.125] Did you interact with Akron at all?

22:34

[00 22:22.125 – 00:22:27.046] I know that the house hadn't been s- hadn't been purchased at that time.

22:39

[00 22:27.046 – 00:22:32.566] Oh, looks like you froze up.

22:42

[00 22:46.934 – 00:22:50.475] Gonna see if Gary can come back online.

22:45

[00 22:50.475 – 00:23:01.855] This

22:46

[00 23:01.855 – 00:23:04.335] is the wonders of technology, folks.

22:48

[00 23:04.335 – 00:23:14.394] Yeah, Gary, I'm not sure if

22:50

[00 23:14.394 – 00:23:19.295] you can hear us, but maybe you wanna sign out and then sign back in.

22:56

[00 23:19.295 – 00:23:27.095] All right.

22:57

[00 23:27.095 – 00:23:37.295] So, um- So, uh, as far as 12-step calls were concerned and that, you know, I kind of gave you an idea what I did there,

23:07

[00 23:37.295 – 00:23:47.575] Karen, and, um, the meetings there down in the, uh, downriver area, what we call that area there, were frequented by a lot of the AA old-timers.

23:17

[00 23:47.575 – 00:23:50.894] There were a couple of guys who were part of the original 100.

23:21

[00 23:50.894 – 00:23:55.154] One was Brandy Scribner, and the other one was, uh, Ernie Gehrig.

23:26

[00 23:55.154 – 00:24:02.134] So it was kind of neat to be able to, you know, have these guys show up to these meetings.

23:33

[00 24:02.134 – 00:24:12.275] And the one neat thing about, um, particularly Ernie, he just sim- simply had a pure heart, the guy, and he was able to get the message across

23:43

[00 24:12.275 – 00:24:12.934] very simply.

23:44

[00 24:12.934 – 00:24:21.235] Brandy was just a little bit more of a character, and I had heard that Brandy, um, didn't manage to stay sober after a while.

23:54

[00 24:21.235 – 00:24:31.335] So, and it is one of the interes- interesting things about this program, you know, we have all this history and stuff and we talk about the original 500 and, and I'm not trying to say anything

24:07

[00 24:31.335 – 00:24:35.355] bad about anybody, but that's just the way we are, you know?

24:11

[00 24:35.355 – 00:24:37.154] And there's no guarantees.

24:13

[00 24:37.154 – 00:24:47.454] And, and that's what my sponsor told me all the time, "There ain't no guarantees." You know, that no matter who you are, what you are, what your history is in this program.

24:25

[00 24:47.454 – 00:24:52.894] And that's why I talk about that drink still waiting for me out there.

24:30

[00 24:52.894 – 00:24:53.575] Yeah.

24:31

[00 24:53.575 – 00:25:03.934] That, um, uh, that I have this addiction problem and, um, it's, it's gonna go with me to the grave, and I, I hopefully,

24:40

[00 25:03.934 – 00:25:07.295] you know, have, have learned that I'm not trying to quit.

24:44

[00 25:07.295 – 00:25:10.115] I'm just trying to not start today.

24:47

[00 25:10.115 – 00:25:11.195] And that's what it's all about.

24:49

[00 25:11.195 – 00:25:12.195] It's about not starting.

24:51

[00 25:12.195 – 00:25:13.195] It's not about quitting.

24:53

[00 25:13.195 – 00:25:14.275] Right.

24:54

[00 25:14.275 – 00:25:14.954] Yeah.

24:54

[00 25:14.954 – 00:25:19.495] So, but you bring up- So it was kind of neat to have a couple of old-timers like that around.

25:02

[00 25:19.495 – 00:25:29.815] And then, I mean, there were other people that had 25, you know, and, and 30 years too, that were, uh, just really, really great people to be with in the program,

25:13

[00 25:29.815 – 00:25:30.195] so.

25:13

[00 25:30.195 – 00:25:32.934] Well, the program was only what?

25:16

[00 25:32.934 – 00:25:35.414] 31 years old when you got sober.

25:18

[00 25:35.414 – 00:25:36.555] Right.

25:19

[00 25:36.555 – 00:25:39.894] So 25 years is the beginning.

25:21

[00 25:39.894 – 00:25:44.255] Um- Yeah, Bill Hoy was one of my, one of the guys that I used to...

25:27

[00 25:44.255 – 00:25:45.454] With the Glenwood group.

25:29

[00 25:45.454 – 00:25:48.844] Yeah, he, yeah, he had 25 years when he came in, so yeah.

25:33

[00 25:48.844 – 00:25:54.565] And do you have- I- Do you have stories of experiences with them that you- Yeah ...

25:39

[00 25:54.565 – 00:25:55.485] can share with us?

25:41

[00 25:55.485 – 00:25:57.894] 'Cause that's really what this meeting is about.

25:44

[00 25:57.894 – 00:26:08.775] So do you have- One of the things I was gonna share was, um, and particularly, uh, Ernie and Brandy, um, you know, when they, uh,

25:54

[00 26:08.775 – 00:26:18.235] when they were first in the program, they would all, they would get in their car, they'd take their wives, and they would drive down to Bob's house in Akron.

26:05

[00 26:18.235 – 00:26:28.295] And they'd go in the evening, they'd stay there, um, uh, g- have a meeting in the living room and all that, and the women would go in the kitchen with Anne and

26:17

[00 26:28.295 – 00:26:38.595] that, and then, you know, get to be midnight and they'd all turn around and drive the three hours back, you know, so that they could get a couple hours sleep and go, um,

26:29

[00 26:38.595 – 00:26:40.035] you know, go to work the next day.

26:32

[00 26:40.035 – 00:26:50.134] So there was a, a real, um, zealousness in terms of wanting to be able to,

26:38

[00 26:50.134 – 00:26:55.715] you know, work the program, stay in touch with, you know, their origins in the program and that.

26:45

[00 26:55.715 – 00:27:00.835] And one of the interesting things, uh, about, um, uh...

26:49

[00 27:00.835 – 00:27:10.875] The program has, um, a, a, a very Christian, uh,

26:53

[00 27:10.875 – 00:27:11.715] background to it.

26:54

[00 27:11.715 – 00:27:21.835] They would, uh, sit in the living room and they would read passages from the Bible and, uh, and, you know, before they'd, you know, managed to get the whole 12 steps together.

27:06

[00 27:21.835 – 00:27:27.035] They had the six, um, steps or, um...

27:09

[00 27:27.035 – 00:27:30.875] I forget what they, the, from the Oxford Group.

27:13

[00 27:30.875 – 00:27:33.755] You know- The absolutes.

27:14

[00 27:33.755 – 00:27:33.865] The absolutes.

27:15

[00 27:33.865 – 00:27:34.875] That's, that's the word, yeah.

27:18

[00 27:34.875 – 00:27:39.595] Anyway, so, so it was kind of a hodgepodge of all of that stuff.

27:23

[00 27:39.595 – 00:27:43.515] And, you know, you, you see the evolution in the program nowadays, you know?

27:28

[00 27:43.515 – 00:27:51.934] We, we obviously, um, don't use the Bible, you know, in meetings or anything like that.

27:34

[00 27:51.934 – 00:28:01.995] But they were grasping at everything that they could to find, you know, a, a spiritual way of life and, and that's what was working

27:43

[00 28:01.995 – 00:28:03.035] for them at the time.

27:45

[00 28:03.035 – 00:28:13.335] And as the program grew, as we had, uh, more and more people came in, more minds being able to, um, you know, apply themselves to,

27:55

[00 28:13.335 – 00:28:20.495] you know, how should we make this work, uh, they came up with a pretty good deal, you know, the 12 steps and the, and the 12 traditions, so.

28:05

[00 28:20.495 – 00:28:25.195] So- So I always found that kind of interesting.

28:08

[00 28:25.195 – 00:28:26.654] Yeah.

28:09

[00 28:26.654 – 00:28:37.015] That, that, I, I love that, and that you had the privilege of, um, sitting in meetings with those, those men who knew Bob,

28:18

[00 28:37.015 – 00:28:40.795] um, and- Yeah, and, and Bill.

28:20

[00 28:40.795 – 00:28:41.894] So, yeah.

28:21

[00 28:41.894 – 00:28:42.755] Yeah.

28:22

[00 28:42.755 – 00:28:51.275] So, um, I, uh, so did you have the opportunity to meet Bill Wilson?

28:27

[00 28:51.275 – 00:29:01.295] No, and I, I don't wanna sound, um, flip or anything, it just,

28:32

[00 29:01.295 – 00:29:02.974] I had opportunities.

28:34

[00 29:02.974 – 00:29:03.614] Okay.

28:34

[00 29:03.614 – 00:29:05.394] But I just didn't take the time to meet him.

28:38

[00 29:05.394 – 00:29:06.595] So- Okay ...

28:39

[00 29:06.595 – 00:29:16.875] and I mean, he, he came locally, like, to Brighton Hospital up in, uh, Brighton, Michigan, and, um, actually

28:46

[00 29:16.875 – 00:29:24.995] I had, I had started a treatment center there in Ypsi, uh, in 1973 for young drug and alcohol addicts.

28:54

[00 29:24.995 – 00:29:35.414] And the guy that I used for my admitting physician, 'cause I had to have, you know, some kind of legitimacy I guess,

29:02

[00 29:35.414 – 00:29:40.934] um, was, uh, a guy named Russ Fis- Smith, and he was, uh, Dr.

29:07

[00 29:40.934 – 00:29:42.035] Bob's nephew.

29:08

[00 29:42.035 – 00:29:49.315] So I kind of got, you know, close I guess to the, the family origins or whatever.

29:15

[00 29:49.315 – 00:29:59.595] But, um, so, and, uh, B- Bill would, when he came to Brighton he always made sure, 'cause, 'cause Russ was up in Whitmore Lake, just south of Brighton,

29:25

[00 29:59.595 – 00:30:02.315] and, and so Bill would visit him frequently.

29:28

[00 30:02.315 – 00:30:05.015] But like I say, I just never kind of got around to it.

29:33

[00 30:05.015 – 00:30:06.454] I, I don't feel bad.

29:36

[00 30:06.454 – 00:30:07.894] I mean, it just-

29:37

[00 30:08.344 – 00:30:11.544] I, uh, I can't say that I, I, uh...

29:41

[00 30:11.544 – 00:30:16.884] It's important to me to be, uh, to have done that or not, you know?

29:46

[00 30:16.884 – 00:30:26.884] I- I got my job to do, and I do it with whoever's available and close by, and that's just, you know, I work the program one

29:56

[00 30:26.884 – 00:30:29.463] day at a time and with the people that are around me.

30:01

[00 30:29.463 – 00:30:30.903] I don't...

30:02

[00 30:30.903 – 00:30:32.183] I guess I wasn't starstruck.

30:04

[00 30:32.183 – 00:30:37.784] St- oh, oh, I wanna tell you that I have a connection with Brighton.

30:09

[00 30:37.784 – 00:30:38.703] Oh.

30:10

[00 30:38.703 – 00:30:45.723] That, um, I, as a kid, we used to go camping out there at the state park out there.

30:17

[00 30:45.723 – 00:30:46.344] Right, yeah.

30:18

[00 30:46.344 – 00:30:54.703] And we'd go past that Bright- Brighton Hospital, and they always had that sign that said, "No emergency services available." Right.

30:26

[00 30:54.703 – 00:31:01.814] And my parents had tried to get, had gone to AA meeting, was trying to get my grandpa sober.

30:33

[00 31:01.814 – 00:31:09.942] And so I'd always ask, "Well, why are there no emergency services?" And my mom said, "Well, it's not that kind of hospital." So of course, I'm a kid.

30:44

[00 31:09.942 – 00:31:16.163] "Well, what kind of a hospital is it?" "Well, it's not an emergency hospital." And they never told me what kind of a...

30:52

[00 31:16.163 – 00:31:22.724] And it wasn't until I got sober that I found out that Brighton was a treatment facility.

30:58

[00 31:22.724 – 00:31:23.764] Yeah.

30:59

[00 31:23.764 – 00:31:27.764] And that I'd, I'd been going by it all this time and...

31:04

[00 31:27.764 – 00:31:28.024] Right.

31:04

[00 31:28.024 – 00:31:38.163] Yeah, it was a, it was pretty much a two-week, uh, drying out program, and people would come in there and they'd spend 10 days to two weeks,

31:14

[00 31:38.584 – 00:31:40.683] get dried out, and go to a lot of meetings.

31:18

[00 31:40.683 – 00:31:43.163] There were AA meetings there and all that, so.

31:22

[00 31:43.163 – 00:31:46.524] And Bill frequented the place.

31:24

[00 31:46.524 – 00:31:57.423] He, he felt a strong connection to Brighton Hospital, not just because Bob's nephew, you know, was, uh, was

31:31

[00 31:57.423 – 00:32:07.443] working at a, um, he was working at a, a young, a youth, a state youth, uh, program, uh, where they had, you know, young juveniles and

31:41

[00 32:07.443 – 00:32:10.644] that, and Bob was, was, uh, working there.

31:44

[00 32:10.644 – 00:32:16.324] I mean, uh, Russ was working there, so it was convenient for him to be able to touch base, so.

31:51

[00 32:16.324 – 00:32:23.084] Well, and we used to have keggers out at Brighton as teenagers.

31:56

[00 32:23.084 – 00:32:23.093] Right.

31:57

[00 32:23.093 – 00:32:26.403] As high schoolers, we used to have keggers out at, out at Brighton.

32:02

[00 32:26.403 – 00:32:26.943] Oh, yeah.

32:03

[00 32:26.943 – 00:32:28.274] Yeah.

32:03

[00 32:28.274 – 00:32:34.784] We had, I had a lot of keggers at, in Ann Arbor at the university there, for sure.

32:10

[00 32:34.784 – 00:32:35.163] Yes.

32:11

[00 32:35.163 – 00:32:35.514] Yes.

32:11

[00 32:35.514 – 00:32:36.682] I never graduated.

32:13

[00 32:36.682 – 00:32:39.104] You know, I was too busy getting drunk, so.

32:16

[00 32:39.104 – 00:32:40.564] Yeah.

32:17

[00 32:40.564 – 00:32:46.384] So you said that you moved out to Ann Arbor, and you started this treatment facility.

32:23

[00 32:46.384 – 00:32:47.104] Right.

32:24

[00 32:47.104 – 00:32:53.724] And, um, and tell us a little bit about, um, a little bit about that, a little more about that.

32:31

[00 32:53.724 – 00:32:55.844] It was based on the 12 steps.

32:34

[00 32:55.844 – 00:32:56.034] Right.

32:34

[00 32:56.034 – 00:33:04.584] Did you have people from AA coming in to, to speak to, um, the patients, or how did you have that set up?

32:43

[00 33:04.584 – 00:33:06.584] Well, that was pretty much...

32:45

[00 33:06.584 – 00:33:13.564] It, it started originally to be a three to six-month program primarily for young drug and alcohol addicts.

32:52

[00 33:13.564 – 00:33:23.644] I, um, as I evolved, got more involved in young peoples and different things in, uh, in Michigan, I was asked to sit on a governor's

33:01

[00 33:23.644 – 00:33:33.804] committee, uh, to come up with, um, ideas, suggestions on how to treat and deal with alcoholism.

33:08

[00 33:33.804 – 00:33:43.824] And, um, uh, I, I, uh, I would go to these meetings once a month or whenever

33:14

[00 33:43.824 – 00:33:53.884] we had them and, uh, there'd be a lot of these psychologists and doctors around and everything, and they were all talking about, you know, modalities

33:23

[00 33:53.884 – 00:33:58.183] that were, didn't have anything to do with 12 steps.

33:27

[00 33:58.183 – 00:34:08.384] Um, you know, just keep patients on a, on a, on a, uh, on a regimen of,

33:33

[00 34:08.384 – 00:34:18.443] you know, counseling and, uh, never really do any kind of aftercare in terms of, of, um, follow-up with

33:40

[00 34:18.443 – 00:34:23.804] something like an AA program, going to a, a 12-step meeting, and I got a little frustrated.

33:47

[00 34:23.804 – 00:34:33.854] And it, it just kind of got to the point where I just said, "I don't think you guys really have, you know, a clue as to how, you know, you can do something to treat this

34:00

[00 34:33.854 – 00:34:41.623] disease and do it successfully." 'Cause they really didn't wanna be affiliated with what they would've called a religious program back then at the time.

34:09

[00 34:41.623 – 00:34:42.684] And- Right ...

34:10

[00 34:42.684 – 00:34:52.903] um, and I just more or less got challenged, and I said, "All right, I'll show you." And I had, uh, been hanging out with some people that, uh, had started a farm up in Canada

34:23

[00 34:52.903 – 00:35:01.043] called Spera just outside of Montreal, and, um, just took their idea and used it.

34:29

[00 35:01.043 – 00:35:06.284] And, um, essentially what, what the regimen was was living on a farm.

34:34

[00 35:06.284 – 00:35:07.943] You had animals to take care of.

34:37

[00 35:07.943 – 00:35:10.144] You had assigned chores.

34:39

[00 35:10.144 – 00:35:13.463] You, uh, you learned how to cook meals.

34:42

[00 35:13.463 – 00:35:16.123] Um, you had to take care of the animals on the farm.

34:46

[00 35:16.123 – 00:35:25.804] And so it was all about rebuilding a person's life, getting them, you know, to start from scratch again, bringing them to zero, and they had to stay at that facility.

34:58

[00 35:25.804 – 00:35:30.204] So we would have, you know, we would have a discussion after our breakfast.

35:03

[00 35:30.204 – 00:35:39.083] Um, we did things like first thing in the morning when we woke up, I would, uh, I had been a yoga teacher, so I would, I would do a little yoga.

35:15

[00 35:39.083 – 00:35:49.284] We'd do a half hour's worth of yoga in the morning, and then, uh, by the time the chores were d- done and assigned for the day, cleaning house and, and what have you,

35:27

[00 35:49.284 – 00:35:52.003] uh, we'd have our luncheon meal.

35:29

[00 35:52.003 – 00:35:57.963] We'd have another discussion after the luncheon meal, and that was pretty much the way the whole program worked.

35:36

[00 35:57.963 – 00:35:58.523] You know, we...

35:38

[00 35:58.523 – 00:36:08.604] A- and then we would go into town to go to AA meetings either in Ypsi or, or in Ann Arbor, and we would take the residents with us, and we would have

35:50

[00 36:08.604 – 00:36:15.403] anywhere from between 6 and, you know, 12, uh, 14 residents at a time.

35:54

[00 36:15.403 – 00:36:23.644] And- So it sounds really like not only based on the 12 steps, but also based on the 12 traditions, 'cause you're talking about a group conscience.

36:03

[00 36:23.644 – 00:36:28.784] You're talking about, uh, you're talking about self-supporting through our own contributions.

36:08

[00 36:28.784 – 00:36:29.903] We're learning how to cook.

36:10

[00 36:29.903 – 00:36:32.043] We're learning how to care for ourselves.

36:13

[00 36:32.043 – 00:36:32.233] We're...

36:13

[00 36:32.233 – 00:36:40.704] So you're bringing all of that into play here, and we're getting those principles just through the process of getting sober.

36:21

[00 36:40.704 – 00:36:41.864] Exactly.

36:22

[00 36:41.864 – 00:36:42.704] So.

36:23

[00 36:42.704 – 00:36:45.684] So, so essentially, it was a pretty intense, uh, program.

36:27

[00 36:45.684 – 00:36:47.702] It was confrontational.

36:28

[00 36:47.702 – 00:36:52.963] So, um, so, so there was, uh, a very...

36:31

[00 36:52.963 – 00:37:01.224] Y- you didn't escape, uh, pretty much anything as far as, uh, having to do your inventory in front of the group with everybody.

36:40

[00 37:01.224 – 00:37:11.384] W- once a month, we would have what we called a 24-hour session, uh, and we would start, and we would go for 24 hours and, and be in a discussion-type meeting.

36:52

[00 37:11.384 – 00:37:21.543] Uh, so we would have some pretty rigorous, uh, sessions where people were encouraged, um, not just encouraged, confronted to,

36:59

[00 37:21.543 – 00:37:22.443] you know, come clean.

37:01

[00 37:22.443 – 00:37:25.824] So you left- And that program's still going.

37:04

[00 37:25.824 – 00:37:35.864] It's one of the more successful programs in the country, and it's, uh, it's gotten to the point now where it's, uh, they have recovery houses in Ypsi

37:14

[00 37:35.864 – 00:37:39.873] and Ann Arbor and, uh, you know, uh, different

37:18

[00 37:40.992 – 00:37:42.972] types of living situations.

37:19

[00 37:42.972 – 00:37:50.502] They have, um, they have a, a detox facility, so quite a few, uh, pretty large campus now.

37:26

[00 37:50.502 – 00:37:53.332] Okay.

37:27

[00 37:53.332 – 00:37:58.452] Um, I know that there's some kind of disruption when I share.

37:31

[00 37:58.452 – 00:38:01.152] People have pointed that out.

37:34

[00 38:01.152 – 00:38:03.772] Everything is turned off, trust me on that.

37:37

[00 38:03.772 – 00:38:05.332] I don't have anything on behind me.

37:40

[00 38:05.332 – 00:38:12.552] Um, and then I had another question, um, and it just escaped me.

37:44

[00 38:12.552 – 00:38:22.752] Um, so you were in Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, and then, uh, what got

37:49

[00 38:22.752 – 00:38:29.792] you to Durango, Colorado, and, uh, what are you do- how, how was that relocation?

37:55

[00 38:29.792 – 00:38:32.772] How long were you sober when you relocated to Durango?

37:59

[00 38:32.772 – 00:38:37.592] Um, oh, God, close to 20 years so.

38:02

[00 38:37.592 – 00:38:48.132] I, um, that, that farm was a 24 hour a day, seven day a week type program, and I had another fella that, uh,

38:10

[00 38:48.132 – 00:38:50.772] helped me with it, and, uh, he, he helped.

38:14

[00 38:50.772 – 00:38:51.992] He co-founded.

38:15

[00 38:51.992 – 00:39:00.132] He, we both lived there and, um, and we both ran the, the, the treatment modality that was there.

38:22

[00 39:00.132 – 00:39:10.332] And, uh, um, after two years, I, um, I had, uh, I had been dating a girl that I met,

38:29

[00 39:10.332 – 00:39:18.052] uh, and she, uh, she, she wound up coming into the program.

38:34

[00 39:18.052 – 00:39:19.472] I actually kind of tricked her.

38:36

[00 39:19.472 – 00:39:29.792] I'd gone out with a couple of dates with her and, and I said, "I think I want you to meet me at this church on Wednesday night." Oh, that's just mean,

38:48

[00 39:29.792 – 00:39:30.212] Gary.

38:49

[00 39:30.212 – 00:39:31.132] And, uh- That's mean.

38:50

[00 39:31.132 – 00:39:40.532] So my wife, Beanie, who is still with me today, uh, came to her first AA meeting, and um, she's been going ever since.

38:59

[00 39:40.532 – 00:39:45.112] So how long is she sober?

39:02

[00 39:45.112 – 00:39:48.012] 52 years, I guess.

39:03

[00 39:48.012 – 00:39:48.372] Yeah.

39:04

[00 39:48.372 – 00:39:51.652] Oh, we're gonna get her contact information from you.

39:07

[00 39:51.652 – 00:39:53.082] I already asked her.

39:09

[00 39:53.082 – 00:39:54.092] She said she didn't wanna do it.

39:12

[00 39:54.092 – 00:39:55.272] Oh, okay.

39:13

[00 39:55.272 – 00:39:57.712] So but that's, that's the way it is.

39:16

[00 39:57.712 – 00:40:04.552] So and you moved to Durango, Colorado and- Yeah, well, I- ...

39:20

[00 40:04.552 – 00:40:04.762] so 20 years- ...

39:22

[00 40:04.762 – 00:40:05.872] I left, uh, I left the farm.

39:24

[00 40:05.872 – 00:40:17.012] We had, uh, uh, my, Beanie was pregnant, and like I say, it was two years and it was just more than, you know, I,

39:34

[00 40:17.012 – 00:40:17.362] I- It was a lot ...

39:36

[00 40:17.362 – 00:40:17.762] I was burnt out.

39:37

[00 40:17.762 – 00:40:27.832] And um, so we moved to, I was offered a job in Nevada, uh, working for the state there to do an alcohol and, uh, drug

39:47

[00 40:27.832 – 00:40:36.632] program for them for the state and to work in a, a rural, uh, clinic out there as a, as a substance abuse counselor.

39:56

[00 40:36.632 – 00:40:46.632] And so I s- I went out there and stayed, you know, for a couple of years and, um, moved to Salt Lake City and, uh, uh, worked in Salt

40:07

[00 40:46.632 – 00:40:49.092] Lake City, started a business there and all that.

40:10

[00 40:49.092 – 00:40:54.112] And then eventually we, uh, we moved to, uh, Durango, Colorado.

40:14

[00 40:54.112 – 00:40:57.832] We bought a bed and breakfast down there and, uh, yeah.

40:19

[00 40:57.832 – 00:41:07.852] And, uh, did that for 10 years, and I, I continued my other business and, you know, s- am still here today, and I think this is, uh, the last stop

40:30

[00 41:07.852 – 00:41:08.372] for me.

40:31

[00 41:08.372 – 00:41:17.432] So I'm just gonna ask you, um, just one more question actually, and then I'm gonna see if anybody in the, in the room has a question for you.

40:41

[00 41:17.432 – 00:41:22.552] Um, I have relocated in sobriety.

40:44

[00 41:22.552 – 00:41:32.681] I got sober in Honolulu, and then moved to Washington, DC, and then traveled, was on the road for several years, and then moved to California, and then Albuquerque, and then back to California.

40:56

[00 41:32.681 – 00:41:41.832] So my experience with moving from Hawaii to Washington, DC was, they're not doing it right.

41:02

[00 41:41.832 – 00:41:48.172] How did you adjust to the difference in AA meetings between...

41:06

[00 41:48.172 – 00:41:54.241] Now, th- and they're pretty drastic between Michigan and Nevada, between- Oh, yeah ...

41:11

[00 41:54.241 – 00:41:55.992] So how did you adjust to that?

41:14

[00 41:55.992 – 00:41:56.692] Yeah.

41:15

[00 41:56.692 – 00:42:06.752] You know, it's funny because that, uh, uh, I, I'll never forget, I, I went, uh, uh, this was when I was first in a pri- I went down to,

41:26

[00 42:06.752 – 00:42:16.532] uh, I had to do a National Guard summer camp training in, in Georgia, and I remember going to a meeting on my way down there in South Carolina, and I couldn't believe it.

41:38

[00 42:16.532 – 00:42:20.572] I, th- these guys don't know how to work AA, but I'd only been sober about a year.

41:45

[00 42:20.572 – 00:42:30.632] And yeah, like, like you say, when you really, y- you know, um, the, that saying about it's, it's not the place,

41:53

[00 42:30.632 – 00:42:31.532] it's the program.

41:54

[00 42:31.532 – 00:42:41.732] But it's so easy to get hung up on that because you have such, I had such a, an affiliation, attraction, and that communion with the people

42:04

[00 42:41.732 – 00:42:51.792] that I first met in the program, um, that, you know, to go, and I, I just didn't realize that the mechanics of how a meeting was conducted

42:14

[00 42:51.792 – 00:42:55.492] was not AA, and it took me a while to, to learn that.

42:19

[00 42:55.492 – 00:43:05.492] But by the time I got to places like, um, you know, Nevada, Utah, there were meetings already, you know, going in,

42:27

[00 43:05.492 – 00:43:09.672] in, in different types of formats and that, and I didn't really seem to have a problem.

42:34

[00 43:09.672 – 00:43:14.353] It just, it took a, a little while, you know, in the beginning to, to get used to that.

42:41

[00 43:14.353 – 00:43:23.092] And one of the other things I wanna say too, Young People's was probably a very critical and important, uh, thing in my life.

42:50

[00 43:23.092 – 00:43:25.582] I, I really got involved in Young People's.

42:53

[00 43:25.582 – 00:43:27.572] I got involved in the international conferences.

42:56

[00 43:27.572 – 00:43:37.692] We started, uh, there was kinda like a group of us in the central US where we started to have quarterly roundups, and

43:04

[00 43:37.692 – 00:43:47.692] a very intense group of people and close group of people and, um, just something that, uh, uh, was, was very crucial

43:12

[00 43:47.692 – 00:43:49.112] for all of us at the time.

43:15

[00 43:49.112 – 00:43:59.393] Um, and it was probably a movement of maybe 100 people or so that, that really, uh, really did do a lot to,

43:23

[00 43:59.393 – 00:44:03.332] to 12 step newer, younger people into the program.

43:26

[00 44:03.332 – 00:44:09.592] And we, we would have these weekend conferences, which were pretty intense and pretty enlightening.

43:32

[00 44:09.592 – 00:44:11.551] So, yeah.

43:33

[00 44:11.551 – 00:44:12.132] Okay.

43:34

[00 44:12.132 – 00:44:22.202] Um, I do wanna ask, um, since you were involved in the, in the alcoholism treatment industry, did you ever have

43:42

[00 44:22.202 – 00:44:23.912] the opportunity to meet Marty Mann?

43:44

[00 44:23.912 – 00:44:24.932] No.

43:45

[00 44:24.932 – 00:44:25.792] No.

43:45

[00 44:25.792 – 00:44:26.712] Okay.

43:46

[00 44:26.712 – 00:44:27.782] No.

43:47

[00 44:27.782 – 00:44:30.572] 'Cause I know she was traveling around the country doing talks.

43:51

[00 44:30.572 – 00:44:30.762] She was, yeah.

43:52

[00 44:30.762 – 00:44:31.332] Just wondered.

43:54

[00 44:31.332 – 00:44:31.652] Yeah.

43:54

[00 44:31.652 – 00:44:32.412] Yeah.

43:55

[00 44:32.412 – 00:44:33.132] You know, it's funny.

43:57

[00 44:33.132 – 00:44:43.252] I can't, there were tons of really great speakers and that were circuit speakers and people that, you know, uh, that I met along the way,

44:06

[00 44:43.252 – 00:44:48.012] and I really can't, you know, remember them, and I really don't care.

44:11

[00 44:48.012 – 00:44:48.592] They were good.

44:13

[00 44:48.592 – 00:44:49.752] It was a good talk.

44:15

[00 44:49.752 – 00:44:49.802] Right.

44:15

[00 44:49.802 – 00:44:53.842] I enjoyed myself, and uh, uh, that's- ...

44:18

[00 44:53.842 – 00:44:55.632] just the way it is, you know?

44:21

[00 44:55.632 – 00:44:57.002] I- Yeah, yeah ...

44:22

[00 44:57.002 – 00:44:57.002] yeah.

44:23

[00 44:57.002 – 00:44:57.962] I, I'm trying to remember.

44:25

[00 44:57.962 – 00:45:01.372] There was a Father, uh, Tim or Tom.

44:28

[00 45:01.372 – 00:45:02.172] Father Tom.

44:30

[00 45:02.172 – 00:45:07.732] Yeah, he, he's a circuit speaker, and I can remember we had him come to Durango.

44:36

[00 45:07.732 – 00:45:12.122] One of the guys there, uh, was, uh, one of his, uh, sponsees

44:40

[00 45:13.361 – 00:45:14.381] This is a great story.

44:43

[00 45:14.381 – 00:45:17.041] This Father Tim's just a character.

44:45

[00 45:17.041 – 00:45:20.361] He, he really, he tells a great story, and he...

44:49

[00 45:20.361 – 00:45:21.922] lot of humor and everything like that.

44:52

[00 45:21.922 – 00:45:32.161] And, and, uh, Alan was so proud to be able to take me up to Father Tim, because Father Tim was probably about 35, you know, 36 years sober

45:02

[00 45:32.161 – 00:45:33.141] at the time, something like that.

45:04

[00 45:33.141 – 00:45:37.221] And, and, uh, and he was a circuit speaker, and he brought, he brought me up to Father Tim.

45:11

[00 45:37.221 – 00:45:38.881] He says, "Tim, I want you to meet Gary.

45:15

[00 45:38.881 – 00:45:48.881] He's got over 50 years sobriety." And Father Tim looked at me and he said, "That's a good start." And that's the way I've tried

45:23

[00 45:48.881 – 00:45:49.841] to live it.

45:25

[00 45:49.841 – 00:45:50.201] You know?

45:26

[00 45:50.201 – 00:45:56.381] I, I just don't get off on all of the, the big name stuff and that.

45:32

[00 45:56.381 – 00:45:56.961] It, it...

45:33

[00 45:56.961 – 00:46:02.021] I just got a job to do, and that's to do it one day at a time and see if I can help another person, so.

45:43

[00 46:02.021 – 00:46:04.141] That's wonderful.

45:44

[00 46:04.141 – 00:46:06.821] I am going to ask the group.

45:46

[00 46:06.821 – 00:46:09.442] Tim, can you take us off of spotlight?

45:50

[00 46:09.442 – 00:46:17.680] And, um, and we're gonna ask the group if, um, anybody has any questions for Gary.

45:56

[00 46:17.680 – 00:46:24.161] Um, if you do, if you have any questions that you wanna ask Gary, would you please raise your virtual hand?

46:03

[00 46:24.161 – 00:46:30.101] We will ask you to turn on your video to ask a question, but we'd like you to come in.

46:11

[00 46:30.101 – 00:46:36.761] And Barb in Area 48, would you like to, um, unmute and come in and ask Gary a question?

46:17

[00 46:36.761 – 00:46:41.901] Hi, I'm Barb.

46:19

[00 46:41.901 – 00:46:42.881] I'm an alcoholic.

46:20

[00 46:42.881 – 00:46:44.161] Um, thank you for your story.

46:23

[00 46:44.161 – 00:46:45.840] It's been amazing to hear you tonight.

46:26

[00 46:45.840 – 00:46:54.141] Um, only because I know a little bit of Michigan history, you talked about having a lot of resistance with starting the farm.

46:34

[00 46:54.141 – 00:47:02.281] Um, but in that area, I know that Eloise Hospital was there, which was one of the state mental hospitals that was, you know, kind of on that same lines.

46:45

[00 47:02.281 – 00:47:04.681] Did that help you with that being there?

46:48

[00 47:04.681 – 00:47:08.981] Could you talk about, you know, how similar the two things were or that type of thing?

46:55

[00 47:08.981 – 00:47:11.341] Or did it not really matter at that point?

46:58

[00 47:11.341 – 00:47:21.341] Well, the guy that was my partner, he worked there at that hospital, and he, he would continue working during the day and come out and

47:08

[00 47:21.341 – 00:47:25.981] do the night shift at the farm while I did the t- morning, you know, day shift at the farm.

47:15

[00 47:25.981 – 00:47:28.261] So Jack, uh, Schultes and that.

47:17

[00 47:28.261 – 00:47:35.061] So, so yeah, the state hospital, um, we worked kind of closely, and there were people there.

47:24

[00 47:35.061 – 00:47:41.460] We would actually go out to and do little talks and stuff at the hospital out there also.

47:30

[00 47:41.460 – 00:47:44.881] Thanks, Barb.

47:32

[00 47:44.881 – 00:47:47.841] Anyone else have a question for Gary?

47:34

[00 47:47.841 – 00:47:50.721] No.

47:35

[00 47:50.721 – 00:47:55.321] Roger, would you like to unmute and come in and, um, ask Gary a question?

47:41

[00 47:55.321 – 00:47:57.902] Hi, Gary.

47:42

[00 47:57.902 – 00:47:58.321] Thanks.

47:42

[00 47:58.321 – 00:48:02.021] Um, I really appreciate all these conversations that we have.

47:46

[00 48:02.021 – 00:48:08.902] Um, I'm curious about the, um, the perception of Young People's groups in AA in the '60s.

47:53

[00 48:08.902 – 00:48:17.861] I, um, had a opportunity to meet a guy named Frank H out in California that was traveling around trying to go to lots of, uh...

48:03

[00 48:17.861 – 00:48:27.861] very involved in Ikikpaa and those kinds of things, but what was it like, uh, the perception, uh, from mainstream AA, and, um, if, if you had

48:12

[00 48:27.861 – 00:48:29.942] challenges, how did you guys overcome those?

48:15

[00 48:29.942 – 00:48:33.381] And, um, I- I'm just curious what it was like then.

48:20

[00 48:33.381 – 00:48:34.201] Thanks.

48:20

[00 48:34.201 – 00:48:34.461] Yeah.

48:21

[00 48:34.461 – 00:48:44.781] Um, one nice thing about Young People's, we were totally independent and, and didn't really, you know, uh, associate

48:28

[00 48:44.781 – 00:48:50.781] or frequent too much with, with, uh, you know, regular AA meetings and that.

48:33

[00 48:50.781 – 00:48:57.321] And I, and I like to think, too, I, I, I know that we got one of the first gay groups started in the Detroit area.

48:43

[00 48:57.321 – 00:49:07.400] Um, so that was primarily the result of, of Young People in AA, and there were more, you know, gay people who were willing...

48:52

[00 49:07.400 – 00:49:11.521] would come to AA because there was more of an understanding and acceptance.

48:57

[00 49:11.521 – 00:49:21.341] And I'll tell you a cute story about how, how it was an adversarial relationship, a little bit between Young People's and the older groups.

49:06

[00 49:21.341 – 00:49:31.341] And once a week, twice a week, uh, we would take all of the members of the farm that I, I, I was involved in,

49:15

[00 49:31.341 – 00:49:40.241] and we would go to an, a regular AA meeting where the, the, uh, older generation was.

49:21

[00 49:40.241 – 00:49:50.601] And back then, um, the meetings were all closed with the Lord's Prayer, and, uh, um, Young

49:28

[00 49:50.601 – 00:49:52.361] People were very affectionate.

49:29

[00 49:52.361 – 00:49:55.221] We would hug each other, and we would always hold hands.

49:34

[00 49:55.221 – 00:50:05.341] And so I would place people from our farm around the room, because there'd be a big circle, and put them in between all the older people,

49:44

[00 50:05.341 – 00:50:10.741] and then we would grab people's hands at the end of the, at the end of the meeting.

49:50

[00 50:10.741 – 00:50:13.981] 'Cause they would stand there with their hands over their crotches.

49:54

[00 50:13.981 – 00:50:24.130] So, um, I like to think that we kinda brought in a little bit of, uh, affection, into these groups, because

50:02

[00 50:24.130 – 00:50:28.281] they, they continue to do it to this day, to hold hands now at the end of a meeting.

50:09

[00 50:28.281 – 00:50:31.321] That's...

50:10

[00 50:31.321 – 00:50:32.891] I love that.

50:11

[00 50:32.891 – 00:50:33.521] Thank you.

50:12

[00 50:33.521 – 00:50:36.021] Uh, d- Chili, would you like...

50:15

[00 50:36.021 – 00:50:39.571] Chili Charlie, would you like to come in and ask Gary a question?

50:20

[00 50:39.571 – 00:50:42.101] Absolutely.

50:21

[00 50:42.101 – 00:50:45.661] Uh, thank you, Penny, and thank you, Gary.

50:24

[00 50:45.661 – 00:50:48.961] Uh, great, uh, hearing your stories.

50:26

[00 50:48.961 – 00:50:53.661] And I, my question, uh, is also along the Young People's lines.

50:31

[00 50:53.661 – 00:51:00.601] And when was your first Ikikpaa, and do you happen to remember Ikikpaa in Indianapolis in 1974?

50:37

[00 51:00.601 – 00:51:06.061] I didn't go to Indianapolis.

50:39

[00 51:06.061 – 00:51:07.291] I only...

50:40

[00 51:07.291 – 00:51:16.681] I started, my first Ikikpaa was, um, uh, in Philadelphia, and it was, like, the sixth one, I think.

50:47

[00 51:16.681 – 00:51:20.761] Uh, Young People's was just obviously getting started.

50:50

[00 51:20.761 – 00:51:28.421] So the first one I went to was in, in, uh, Philadelphia, and I think the last one I went to was in Reno, Nevada.

50:59

[00 51:28.421 – 00:51:32.621] So I maybe went to four different Ikikpaas.

51:03

[00 51:32.621 – 00:51:42.521] And as I say, we had kind of a core group of people in the Midwest where we would, we would really focus on these, uh, quarterly, uh, roundups.

51:13

[00 51:42.521 – 00:51:46.261] Thanks, Gary.

51:14

[00 51:46.261 – 00:51:51.431] Uh, Eduardo, would you like to come in and ask Gary a question?

51:19

[00 51:51.431 – 00:51:54.421] Hi, Gary.

51:20

[00 51:54.421 – 00:52:03.161] Thanks, uh, for sharing, um, the facility, um, that you started back then.

51:25

[00 52:03.161 – 00:52:08.341] Uh, the name of it, and did they eventually go professional?

51:29

[00 52:08.341 – 00:52:12.841] We have a farm here in New England where I am now.

51:34

[00 52:12.841 – 00:52:16.541] People are very familiar with the High Watch Farm.

51:37

[00 52:16.541 – 00:52:17.561] Right.

51:38

[00 52:17.561 – 00:52:18.421] Mm-hmm.

51:39

[00 52:18.421 – 00:52:19.541] Um, yeah.

51:40

[00 52:19.541 – 00:52:29.201] And was it offered to the pr- fellowship and the fell- bill had to resi- you know, uh, re- say, you know, that we couldn't take on any property as a fellowship.

51:52

[00 52:29.201 – 00:52:36.581] But it, it stayed non-professional when I went there, uh, to visit, uh, and Father Martin was talking there.

51:59

[00 52:36.581 – 00:52:38.121] So I don't know.

52:00

[00 52:38.121 – 00:52:43.101] That's some years ago, probably some years ago, maybe 15, maybe longer.

52:05

[00 52:43.101 – 00:52:44.152] But, uh-

52:06

[00 52:44.570 – 00:52:51.130] What was the name of it, and did they professionalize it, or did they keep it, um, uh, otherwise?

52:13

[00 52:51.130 – 00:52:53.570] Yes and yes.

52:14

[00 52:53.570 – 00:53:02.650] It was Dawn Farm, and so they still use the basic, you know, the 12 steps of the AA program and have meetings there now.

52:23

[00 53:02.650 – 00:53:05.090] But they did professionalize it.

52:25

[00 53:05.090 – 00:53:10.370] They have, uh, counselors on staff, psychologists, you know, that sort of thing.

52:30

[00 53:10.370 – 00:53:20.390] I, um, you know, I, I hustled every way I could to get money to keep that place going, and one of the ways that I got money was I would go to the,

52:42

[00 53:20.390 – 00:53:24.110] um, county and put the people on welfare.

52:46

[00 53:24.110 – 00:53:29.471] So, um, so we'd get a welfare check coming into the, to the farm.

52:51

[00 53:29.471 – 00:53:32.490] I mean, it was a nonprofit organization, still is to this day.

52:55

[00 53:32.490 – 00:53:42.610] But, um, in order to do detox and other things like that, as the pri- farm grew and became, you know, a much bigger, um, organization,

53:05

[00 53:42.610 – 00:53:47.290] uh, yeah, it, it had to have professionals, uh, working at it.

53:10

[00 53:47.290 – 00:53:57.810] But still the basic principle, uh, of the farm is that to, to use the AA 12 steps as a primary, uh, recovery mechanism,

53:18

[00 53:57.810 – 00:54:01.750] aside from, you know, counseling and, and that.

53:21

[00 54:01.750 – 00:54:07.070] Uh, Gary, you're muted if you'd like to unmute.

53:25

[00 54:07.070 – 00:54:10.030] Oh, what's the name of it, uh, Gary?

53:28

[00 54:10.030 – 00:54:11.530] Dawn Farm.

53:29

[00 54:11.530 – 00:54:12.550] D-A-W-N.

53:30

[00 54:12.550 – 00:54:14.110] Oh, okay.

53:31

[00 54:14.110 – 00:54:14.490] Yeah.

53:31

[00 54:14.490 – 00:54:15.050] Great.

53:32

[00 54:15.050 – 00:54:25.210] Uh, yeah, I, uh, I, I attended five internationals, and one other thing that came out of fellowship about the Young People's was that

53:41

[00 54:25.210 – 00:54:34.510] this whole business of, uh, speaking back to the, uh, speaker when he says, "Hi, I'm Gary, an alcoholic," you would dare not say anything.

53:50

[00 54:34.510 – 00:54:35.120] Yeah.

53:51

[00 54:35.120 – 00:54:40.100] But we eventually, they would, um, say, "Hi, Gary." Right.

53:55

[00 54:40.100 – 00:54:44.750] You know, most meetings will do that now, and I, I first witnessed that.

54:00

[00 54:44.750 – 00:54:48.790] And do you remember huggies, where you get up and you had a huggy break?

54:06

[00 54:48.790 – 00:54:49.600] I think we'd call- Yeah ...

54:08

[00 54:49.600 – 00:54:50.150] them huggies.

54:09

[00 54:50.150 – 00:54:53.370] Or, um, there was another name for it.

54:12

[00 54:53.370 – 00:54:55.809] Where they'd just break the meeting, "Okay," oh, fuzzy.

54:16

[00 54:55.809 – 00:54:59.310] I might have called it fuzzy, but everybody'd get up and they'd hug each other.

54:21

[00 54:59.310 – 00:54:59.951] Yeah.

54:22

[00 54:59.951 – 00:55:01.050] Uh, yeah.

54:23

[00 55:01.050 – 00:55:06.630] Yeah, I think it was called fu- Mike, do you wanna come in and ask a question?

54:29

[00 55:06.630 – 00:55:09.510] Yes.

54:30

[00 55:09.510 – 00:55:10.110] Thank you.

54:31

[00 55:10.110 – 00:55:14.190] This has been a wonderful, um, presentation tonight.

54:34

[00 55:14.190 – 00:55:14.630] Thank you.

54:35

[00 55:14.630 – 00:55:15.870] I'm so glad I was here.

54:38

[00 55:15.870 – 00:55:18.971] Are we, uh, am I unplugged?

54:40

[00 55:18.971 – 00:55:19.770] Okay.

54:41

[00 55:19.770 – 00:55:20.370] Yeah.

54:42

[00 55:20.370 – 00:55:22.110] Um, thank you again.

54:43

[00 55:22.110 – 00:55:32.550] Uh, yeah, you, you had mentioned, um, uh, that you w- you would detox people and, and then, uh, uh, I was wondering what methods

54:53

[00 55:32.550 – 00:55:33.090] you used.

54:54

[00 55:33.090 – 00:55:39.930] I presume you detoxed them before, um, uh, before it was professionalized.

54:58

[00 55:39.930 – 00:55:42.490] I got sober in Atlanta in the Biscayne Room.

55:02

[00 55:42.490 – 00:55:45.370] Um, there was a woman that was kind of famous.

55:06

[00 55:45.370 – 00:55:53.951] Um, I can't even think of her name off the top of my head, but she had a little room at the clubhouse where she would literally detox guys.

55:16

[00 55:53.951 – 00:55:59.590] Um, but yeah, I was curious what were your, what your methods were or what you used.

55:23

[00 55:59.590 – 00:56:06.290] Um, just candy and ...

55:24

[00 56:06.290 – 00:56:06.340] Oh.

55:25

[00 56:06.340 – 00:56:08.130] They would detox right there at the farm.

55:28

[00 56:08.130 – 00:56:13.930] And, and we would just do our best to help them get through, you know, that, that period.

55:35

[00 56:13.930 – 00:56:14.960] Now- That was- ...

55:36

[00 56:14.960 – 00:56:21.650] as the farm's grown over the years and become more professional, they actually have a formal defo- detox facility.

55:43

[00 56:21.650 – 00:56:25.530] But at first it was just they'd detox, they went cold turkey.

55:48

[00 56:25.530 – 00:56:28.290] Okay.

55:49

[00 56:28.290 – 00:56:30.560] And Teresa, would you- Hi, yeah ...

55:51

[00 56:30.560 – 00:56:34.019] would you like to come in and, um, ask Gary a question?

55:56

[00 56:34.019 – 00:56:35.030] Sure.

55:56

[00 56:35.030 – 00:56:36.400] Treska, alcoholic.

55:57

[00 56:36.400 – 00:56:37.390] Uh, thanks, Gary.

55:59

[00 56:37.390 – 00:56:38.210] Appreciate it.

56:00

[00 56:38.210 – 00:56:48.390] Um, I'm kind of curious, uh, when you mentioned how you worked the steps, I listen to a lot of speakers and a lot of history, and it, and it seems like, um,

56:12

[00 56:48.390 – 00:56:58.530] uh, using the Big Book as a way of w- working the steps was sort of not, uh, i- in fashion or something, um, in, in the mid

56:22

[00 56:58.530 – 00:56:59.870] or late '60s.

56:24

[00 56:59.870 – 00:57:05.190] I've heard a lot of people talk, and then that Joe and Charlie sort of b- brought it back- Yeah ...

56:31

[00 57:05.190 – 00:57:10.890] into popularity as a, as a, as a real methodology of, you know, a real concrete way of working the steps.

56:39

[00 57:10.890 – 00:57:16.670] Um, how were, you know, in all those, all that time, how were you, uh, how were you taking people through the steps?

56:48

[00 57:16.670 – 00:57:18.390] How were people taking each other through the steps?

56:51

[00 57:18.390 – 00:57:19.510] How were people sponsoring?

56:53

[00 57:19.510 – 00:57:26.349] Well, there wasn't any sponsoring, um, at, uh, at, at the farm.

56:57

[00 57:26.349 – 00:57:28.490] They were, they were...

56:59

[00 57:28.490 – 00:57:30.570] We just had meetings every day.

57:02

[00 57:30.570 – 00:57:33.030] We had discussion groups, three a day.

57:05

[00 57:33.030 – 00:57:41.870] And, um, and we would focus on the steps, and we would focus on, uh, getting people to do their inventories, bring it, bring it out in that.

57:15

[00 57:41.870 – 00:57:52.060] Um, as far as going out on 12-step calls, just through Young People's or through regular AA meetings and that,

57:22

[00 57:52.060 – 00:58:02.110] and 12-stepping people, um, I guess w- you know, we would use the Big Book, but the primary

57:29

[00 58:02.110 – 00:58:02.990] thing was meetings.

57:30

[00 58:02.990 – 00:58:13.150] It was getting a person to a meeting and continuing, again, getting them to continue to go to meetings until they could get to the point where they could s- sit down and start to read the Big Book,

57:44

[00 58:13.150 – 00:58:15.190] work with another individual and that sort of thing.

57:48

[00 58:15.190 – 00:58:23.350] But primarily back then, the focus was when you 12-step people, you got them to meetings and you kept them going to meetings, so.

57:57

[00 58:23.350 – 00:58:27.970] And there was a lot of socialization before and after, too, meetings, so.

58:02

[00 58:27.970 – 00:58:34.911] Gary, I just wanna thank you so much for being willing to do this.

58:07

[00 58:34.911 – 00:58:41.430] Thank you for, for taking a cold call from me and, and being willing to come over and do that.

58:14

[00 58:41.430 – 00:58:51.940] And I was wondering if there's anything that I didn't ask you about that you really like to share out of your story, any adventure that you had, or

58:25

[00 58:51.940 – 00:58:55.470] any question that you hoped I would ask and I didn't.

58:29

[00 58:55.470 – 00:59:00.250] Oh, there could, there's lots, but, you know, we'll, we'll, uh, we'll call it quits there.

58:35

[00 59:00.250 – 00:59:05.951] It's kinda, kinda, it's been an interesting, um, career in AA for me.

58:40

[00 59:05.951 – 00:59:13.349] And it's been, you know, uh, I'm glad that alcohol kept me alive long enough to get me in the program, that it didn't kill me before I got here.

58:51

[00 59:13.349 – 00:59:18.150] So, uh, um, uh, I'm truly grateful for, for that.

58:55

[00 59:18.150 – 00:59:22.590] And I've had a blessed, you know, very blessed way of life in this, in this program.

59:01

[00 59:22.590 – 00:59:25.430] And I still do things a little bit unconventionally.

59:05

[00 59:25.430 – 00:59:28.290] I'm not, you know, we're not saints, you know?

59:08

[00 59:28.290 – 00:59:33.070] Well, thank you so much for this.

59:11

[00 59:33.070 – 00:59:33.440] We're getting close, though.

59:13

[00 59:33.440 – 00:59:34.140] I s- I really appreciate it.

59:15

[00 59:34.140 – 00:59:39.951] They talk about spiritual perfection, and I've been in almost 59 years now, so I'm getting close.

59:21

[00 59:39.951 – 00:59:41.970] Getting close.

59:22

[00 59:41.970 – 00:59:46.310] Okay.

59:23

[00 59:46.310 – 00:59:49.470] Well, thank you again so much for being willing to do this.

59:28

[00 59:49.470 – 00:59:51.810] It was just a delight to talk to you.

59:31

[00 59:51.810 – 00:59:55.150] We have put a flyer in the chat for next month's meeting.

59:36

[00 59:55.150 – 00:59:57.050] We'll be talking to Jimmy D.

59:38

[00 59:57.050 – 00:59:59.460] From, uh, Long Island, New York.

59:41

[00 59:59.460 – 01:00:03.010] And, um, I will turn it back over to Tim.

59:45

[01 00:03.010 – 01:00:04.630] Tim, it's up to you.

59:47

[01 00:04.630 – 01:00:05.110] Thanks.

59:48

[01 00:05.110 – 01:00:06.210] All right.

59:49

[01 00:06.210 – 01:00:09.850] Thank you so much, Penny, and thank you, Gary, for being here.

59:53

[01 00:09.850 – 01:00:09.940] You're welcome.

59:54

[01 00:09.940 – 01:00:14.570] And, uh, now I will allow everyone to unmute and thank Gary and Penny.

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Conversation 5-27-2025 presented by Unknown Speaker – 2025-05-27

Conversation 5-27-2025 presented by Unknown Speaker – 2025-05-27

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