Shoemaker: The Oxford Group Connection (Part 2)

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0:00

Moderator Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop. Thanks everyone for joining us. My name is Tim and tonight's presentation, this is part two of a two-part presentation led by Nick H on Sam Shoemaker and the principles he passed on to us. We meet here every Tuesday at the same time using the same Zoom ID and next week is the last Tuesday of January, so it's our night for a conversation with a long timer. And that will be Jerome S.

0:32

Nick from Los Angeles and Jerome's sobriety date is June 16, 1973. So please join us again next week for a great conversation. This meeting is recorded and all past audio presentations are available at recoveryspeakers.com. recoveryspeakers.com is a 501c3 nonprofit dedicated to preserving and sharing the audio history of AA and the 12-step movement for today and for future generations. We send a daily email featuring a speaker talk from our archive.

1:00

Nick Recordings of these meetings and information on upcoming presentations are all included in the daily emails. To subscribe, you can use the link in the chat or send me an email at info at recoveryspeakers.com and I will get you added to our email list. And if you are able to support our work, contributions are appreciated. I am sharing the donation link in the chat. And or you can use the QR code that I will also be sharing in the chat.

1:32

Moderator And tonight we should have some time for Q&A after the presentation. So if you have any questions for Nick, please write down your questions and be prepared to ask them at the end. And I will also be closing the chat during the presentation. I will open that back up after the presentation. And that is it for me.

1:56

Nick I am going to go ahead and introduce Nick. And Nick has done so much research and digging through all the old Shoemaker at Oxford group and all of the things that led to what we had and have in AA. And I am so grateful for all of the work that he has done and looking forward to the presentation tonight. And Nick, you should be able to take it away. All right.

2:24

Moderator Thanks, Tim. Pull up the slide show here. OK, first, I'd like to thank Mike and Tim and everyone at Recovery Speakers for asking me to be with you here tonight. And as Tim said, this is a part two. We did part one last month.

2:42

Moderator And Tim had suggested a while back when I do a presentation that. I tell folks a little bit about myself, so you get to know who I am. So I'll tell you a quick story. I'm a grateful member of Al-Anon and have been for 18 years. I came into recovery in February of 2007 after my wife had been in a treatment center.

3:07

Nick My wife's sober member of AA. So this was just a few years ago. And the story about pride and ego and. How important is it? One of the slogans.

3:18

Nick So I had a great day at work one day and life was going well. I came home feeling really proud of myself, thought life was really going my way. The sun was shining and it felt good outside. So I said, I'm going to fire up the grill out on the deck. I'm going to cook some steaks, potatoes, cook dinner for my wife and kids, family.

3:45

Nick So I'm outside grilling out and I'm thinking, man, life is good. My wife comes outside and says, hey, they're going to have a women's AA meeting on Zoom tonight. And I think I'd like to join that. And I said, well, that's cool. I'll finish grilling out and I'll feed the kids and I'll bring a plate up to you if you're still on the meeting.

4:14

Nick So she was still in the meeting and I made a plate for with steak, potato and brought it up to her. She was on the meeting and just sat in front of her and said, I'll talk to you in a little bit. So after she finished her meeting, she comes downstairs and says, you know, all those women on that meeting, they saw you bringing me that food during the meeting. And I said, oh, really? I was trying not to interfere.

4:47

Nick She says, yeah. And after the meeting, they all started saying, Amy, your husband will bring you food like that and wait on you. And she said, oh, yeah, I've got a good husband. And they were all like, gosh, you really do. You're lucky.

5:05

Nick And my head started swelling. And then she asked if we'd go on a walk with the dog. So we're taking a dog for a walk. And she says, you know, those women were just really going on and on about you. Like you've got a good husband, Amy, and you're lucky.

5:26

Nick And man, I just started feeling really proud of myself. And like my stride got a little better. All of a sudden, my wife says those women kept going on and on about you. And then my sponsor told him, yeah, she really loves her husband. She really loves him.

5:45

Nick She puts up with a lot, but she loves him. And instantly my ego got deflated. And I thought she puts up with a lot. I'm the one that's put up with a lot. She ought to our sponsor ought to know that she's in a they know what I've been through.

6:06

Nick Thank God for Alan on because all that craziness swirling around in my head only lasted about 10 seconds. And I was able to catch it and say, how important is this? And come to the realization that she has put up with a lot. And so what in the old days would have probably been a three or four day argument with neither one of us talking to each other turned into only about 10 seconds of insane thinking. And I was able to say to myself, how important is this?

6:41

Moderator So a little story about me. Now we'll go into the presentation about Sam. So I'm going to skip over some of the introduction pieces that we did on part one. If you were there, appreciate you joining both times. But Sam was a pastor at the Calvary Church in New York City where Bill Wilson got sober in the very beginning of Alcoholics Anonymous.

7:06

Nick So this is a slide here with an audio clip from Bill Wilson. I think it's important for those of you who don't know a lot about Sam. This give you a little bit of background. I'm sorry, it closed out the share for some reason. This will give you a little bit of background as to what Bill Wilson had to say about Sam Shoemaker.

7:32

Nick We have in AA a saying that principles ought to come before personalities. Well, it is through Sam that most of our principles have come. That is, he has been the connecting link for them. It is what Abby learned from Sam and what Abby told. We have an AA saying that.

7:52

Nick A little trouble with the audio clip playing there. We'll move on to this next slide. This is what did Sam Shoemaker tell us about himself. Whenever Bill gives me a chance to talk to AA, he says things about me to other people in my hearing, which if I said them about him in the hearing of other people, he would say was bad for him. The rest of us suffer from egotism just as much as any alcoholic does, and it's just as bad for us, I'm afraid, to be flattered.

8:29

Nick I got well flattered the other day when I first got here, a gal that I had never met before said to me, Are you an alcoholic? And I said, No. And she said, Well, you talk like one. Now, just to get this record straight, I have always felt that Bill gave me a great deal more credit for having anything to do with getting this amazing outfit started than I really should have been given. But Bill's perceptions are very deep, and as we have noticed in many of the meetings where he has spoken to us, his memories are very sharp, and so I just cheerfully accept these allegations of his because one of the most joyous things in my whole very joyous life has been the association that I've had with the people in AA.

9:22

Nick So I chose those two clips because the first one, you have Bill Wilson, the co-founder of AA, saying that it's from Sam Shoemaker that all of our principles have come. So that's a pretty big statement. And then you have Sam. This clip is from the 1960 AA convention, and you have Sam saying that one of the most joyous things in his whole very joyous life has been his association with the people in AA. And now we'll go into the slides a little more in-depth.

9:57

Nick We'll go through the books. I have all the hardback books that Sam Shoemaker wrote in this presentation, and we'll look at each book and then take an excerpt from each one and discuss a little bit about the principles that came from Sam in his literature and then was passed on to those of us in recovery, whether it be AA or Al-Anon or any other 12-step organization. So this first one here is titled National Awakening. And it was published in 1936, and the publisher was Harper and Brothers. And a little quote here from Chapter 5, which is titled The Way to Find God, that's on page 51.

10:39

Nick And if you're looking at the screen, I highlighted in yellow on the book itself, the quote that I'll be reading, and then it's typed out to the right. So in this book, Sam wrote, You can find God today and now if only you be honest. I used to think I should understand Christianity when someday I found a big book with all the questions and all the answers. But it did not come that way. I began understanding it when I gave in to God in an act of the will called self-surrender.

11:16

Moderator That is not a matter of how you feel or even how you think. It is a matter of how you orient yourself to the ultimate reality of the universe, which is God, because he is and because he loves us. He begins with us where we are. And I thought that was a cool one to include in the presentation because of two things. He speaks of the act of self-surrender, which in the very beginning of AA was a big deal.

11:48

Moderator You may have heard on some of the other presentations about the things that took place in the Oxford group early on when Bill and Dr. Bob were just getting things started. They would take folks upstairs there in Akron and would ask them to get on their knees and surrender their life to God. So that was like an important principle that was carried right over into early AA. And even today, you'll hear oftentimes shared in meetings that God begins with us where we are.

12:21

Nick And I think that's an important principle. If you would ever or if you have ever listened to any of Chuck C's old talks, he would often say that you don't have to change anything about you. If you're a thief, you don't have to stop stealing. If you're a drunk, you don't even have to stop drinking. I love you just the way you are.

12:49

Nick And I think what Chuck C was always expressing there was this principle of God loving us just as we are and beginning with us. You know, just as we come on our first or to our first meeting, God begins with us right there. It's not an expectation that we be some kind of great person. He meets us where we're at. Next is a book titled The Church Can Save the World.

13:18

Nick And included here is a picture of a signed copy that I have. This one was published in 1938. And again, like many of Sam's books, the publisher is Harper and Brothers. And I took a little piece from chapter seven, which is titled Turning the World Right Side Up. And this comes from page 129.

13:39

Nick And the quote reads, When a home like the one I am thinking of has gone through the breakup of separation and has been. Because the husband has been profoundly changed, repented of his part in the sin, made full restitution to his wife and been guided to begin life anew with her. When through this restored home, influences have been sent out into a community that have resulted in numbers of changed lives and other restored homes. There you have a demonstration unit that talks louder than a hundred sermons about the home. And with me being an Al-Anon member, this was like an inspirational type of piece.

14:21

Nick And you'll see some of these principles carry right over into the big book. When you read the chapter, two wives and the family afterward, and in much of the things Sam would preach about and in all of his literature that he published, he was always encouraging people to go out and help others, not just to be saved and have a spiritual experience and soak it all up, but to go out and make a difference, to carry the message, to go help others. And that's what he's talking about here, a family that has been through all sorts of tough situations, that they're able to go out into the community and help other people. And you may have heard in the early days of AA, the family members would say that they met with the alcoholics. Everybody all met together.

15:17

Moderator Then at some point they said, we've got to have our own meetings. But this reminds me of how things went in the early days of AA, where it really was a family gathering and the whole family oftentimes was trying to recover together. Next is a really rare book that's difficult to find. This one was called God's Control. And it was published in 1939.

15:43

Moderator And the publisher was Fleming H. Rebel Company. And this is a signed copy that I bought several years ago. And you may notice that Sam has a very distinct handwriting style. I oftentimes am not even able to read because his handwriting is sort of unusual.

16:00

Nick And the little excerpt that I took from this one is in Chapter five, which is titled A Church Aflame Versus Flaming Churches. This is on page forty nine. And the quote reads, anybody closely enough in touch with God himself to relate other people to him and then turn them loose to solve the world's problems as he guides them has spiritual power. And I thought this was a cool one to include. Because, as I said earlier, Sam was always trying to reach, get the message across about going out and helping other people.

16:37

Nick And that's a fundamental principle of 12 step recovery, that we don't just enjoy our recovery and life gets better and we just soak it all up. The 12 step calls for us to carry the message to other people. And that's what Sam's expressing here. I think the principle that someone getting so closely in touch with God to relate other people to him. And, you know, when we're helping other people in recovery, with me being an Al-Anon member, it's not me and my wisdom or knowledge helping other people.

17:14

Moderator I try to be a servant to God. And if you have listened to some of Dr. Bob's old talks, he wouldn't take much credit for being a co-founder of AA. He would say that he tried to be an agent for God. So ultimately, I think we try to have God working through us to help other people.

17:37

Moderator Next is an audio clip where Sam speaks about spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection. This is a principle still in play today. I've known a good many saints and spiritual leaders in my time. And I don't know a single one of them that didn't have to lay feet. I don't mean they were insincere.

18:00

Nick I don't mean they were hypocrites in the ordinary sense. I just mean they were human beings like myself. And human beings sin and fail just as long as they continue to be human beings. That's not a cynical statement, that's only an honesty. That's to get people out of this sky blue atmosphere they think they get into when they come inside church.

18:26

Nick It doesn't exist. All claims to perfection are for the birds. But sobriety and mended lines and new relationships are within the grasp of everybody provided we see and accept the help of God as we understand. I thought this was an important one to include because this is a principle that was carried right over into the big book in 1939. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

18:53

Nick And Sam was known to be sort of a radical type of preacher and he's saying in here that all these claims to perfection, the sky blue atmosphere that people think exists in church, it doesn't exist. And claims to perfection are for the birds. I thought it was a neat quote. Next is a book titled, Christ and This Crisis. You'll see here at the bottom of the dust jacket, it's noted that Sam was the rector of Calvary Church in New York.

19:26

Nick This one was published in 1943 and the publisher was Fleming H. Revel Company. And the quote comes from chapter eight, which is titled, The Christian's Victory. And on page 81, it reads, instead of saying with confidence, this is the victory over cometh the world, even our faith, they would have to say in honesty, this is the defeat that has been caused by the world, even our self-centeredness. That is the opposite of faith.

19:55

Nick Unbelief is not the opposite of faith, self-centeredness is being centered in self rather than in God. And for those of you who've read through the big book and studied it, you'll know that it says that selfishness and self-centeredness was the root of our problems. And this is a principle carried right over from Sam's teachings into 12-step recovery. And I also thought it was important to include because he speaks of sort of humility and not claiming victory over our problems, but saying this is the defeat that has been caused by the world. And one of the most important things I think we do in recovery is admit defeat or surrender to being powerless over something.

20:41

Moderator Sort of the opposite of what some might think, claiming that they've overcome something or conquered it. And Bill Wilson would often speak of not boasting about our recovery, but instead being humble about it and admitting that we were defeated, which ultimately led us into recovery. Next, this is a couple of books that were published back to back. This one is titled, How You Can Help Other People. The next one will be titled, How You Can Find Happiness.

21:12

Moderator These are kind of some cool quotes listed here on the desk jacket if you're looking at the PowerPoint. And this was published in 1946 and the publisher was E.P. Dutton. And here's a, shown in the slide, a signed copy that I have. And I cannot tell you at all what Sam wrote in that book there, but interestingly enough, if you're a book collector, sometimes you can find signed copies of these old books in odd places.

21:44

Moderator And sometimes someone who had a personal signed copy will end up at a library and then discarded by a library. Or sometimes you find them at a yard sale with a little 10 cent sticker stuck on a page. And here in chapter four, titled The Turning Point on page 60, the quote reads, a drunken wastrel, having had no religious training nor knowledge, whatever, in his entire life, met a man he thought was dead, transformed, well-dressed, and heard him witness to what Christ had done for him. They had been drunk together many a time, but one of them had found something and the other wanted what he saw. So that night he gave himself to what he saw in the other man.

22:31

Nick And through that instrument, God came to him till he learned who he is and what the power was that had changed his friend. And I think this is a cool one, of course, because it speaks directly about a drunken person being restored, but there's a couple of things, I think, that tie it directly to the principles of AA in the early days. In the doctor's opinion, Dr. Silkworth wrote something exactly like this, that he saw a person or a man that he didn't even recognize because he had been transformed through his recovery in AA. And then another thing I thought was kind of neat, those of you who are fans of Clancy and some of the talks that he used to give, he would share the story about his struggle to come to a belief in a higher power.

23:27

Moderator And some of you may remember the story, he would say that his sponsor told him, well, if you're having a hard time believing in a higher power, kid, do you think that I'm doing better than you? And Clancy would say, well, yeah, I think so. And he said, well, good, then I'm your higher power right now. And you can believe in that until you can find your relationship with God. And that's what Sam is saying here, that this person served as an instrument for God and the other fellow was able to see in him as a person, inspiration until he can find God himself.

24:10

Nick Next is this one titled, How You Can Find Happiness. And it says, a little quote on the dust jacket, a concrete book that will help you to find the happiness you seek. And it was published in 1947. And this is a copy that was signed by Helen Shoemaker, Sam's wife. And in chapter eight, it's titled The Overflow of Happiness.

24:34

Nick On page 142, the quote reads, a letter from him says, there is something too wonderful about feeling the old soul free again without a dark shadow over it. That is what I have been feeling ever since that experience on the plane. It's still here and with the help of God, it will stay. It made an instantaneous difference in my relations at home. I went to sleep last night and sleep I've had since I got back.

25:04

Nick I have just had to sing for half an hour. It's wonderful. And the old nerves have quieted right down. And Sam is quoting someone in the Oxford group who had a spiritual experience and a changed life. And this is often things that you'll hear shared in a meeting just about how someone's life had turned 180 degrees.

25:28

Nick And I have a good friend in recovery and we were chatting one day about if you had to describe the gifts you get in recovery in just one word, what would it be? And his word is freedom. And the gentleman here is speaking about the old soul being free again. Next is an audio clip where Sam is speaking about pride. We'll play the clip here.

25:54

Nick Now the program of recovery turns, as we all know, on to faith and a power greater than ourselves. Willpower and the appeal to it as sufficient to get in and out of its troubles are a snare to delusion. That is not only true about alcoholics, that's true about everybody else. When you think you're able to manage your own life without God, you add pride to whatever other sin you may have. And pride is not only the first of the seven deadly sins, but it ought to have a category all by itself.

26:31

Nick Because it's vastly more subtle and vastly more dangerous than any other sin whatever. It's always striving to sit in the seat of God. Many people's problems begin to be solved in a matter of minutes. They know they can't solve them by themselves. That puts pride right out of the driver's seat.

26:53

Nick God would be psychologically necessary even if he weren't theologically necessary. Nobody but God is big enough to tell the human ego to move over. I like that one, especially the quote there at the end where he says, nobody but God is capable of telling the human ego to push aside. So this one was like a personal one for me because when I came into Al-Anon, I had a sponsor who had been sober and AA for 27 years. And it seemed like every kind of problem I would bring to him, he would flip it on me and say, what's your pride and your ego?

27:35

Moderator It didn't really make any sense to me. And he would say things like you're trying to be God or, and I would argue with him about these things. It took a long time for me to see how pride and self-righteousness as Sam described here can sort of sneak up on you and that you've gotta be vigilant and work on it one day at a time to avoid those types of dangerous, prideful feelings. Next is a book titled, Living Your Life Today. This is a small little book.

28:11

Nick It was published in 1947 and the publisher was Fleming H. Revel Company. And the little excerpt comes from chapter one, which is titled, You Can Find Faith. And on page 13, the quote reads, live out your faith in your personal relationships today. The test of our relation to God is always our relation to people.

28:32

Nick So if we really have been in touch with God, we are going to be more cheerful, more honest, more ready to be useful, more forgiving, more considerate, more courageous. People are going to notice that there is a new power in our lives and be glad of it. Live one day like that and I am sure you will never want to live another way. And where he speaks of being cheerful and forgiving and honest and useful, it reminds me of the quote that we have in the big book where it says, we are not a glum lot. And that if people couldn't see this happiness and cheerfulness and joy in us, then they wouldn't want what we have.

29:19

Nick And I think that's a principle that comes, right from Sam over into the early days of AA where we're encouraged to be happy and cheerful and be able to laugh and enjoy our lives. Next is a book titled, Revive Thy Church. And I have here on the slide, the one on the left is the United States printing and the one on the right is the British printing. And I think the dust jacket from the British printing is kind of odd with Sam's face sort of cut out there. It looks like a bobble head or something almost.

29:58

Nick And the United States printing was published by Harper and Brothers in 1948. And the British printing was published in 1950 by Arthur James. And the quote we have here comes from chapter five, which is titled, By All Means. And on page 79, it reads, there are too few places where one can take a listless, conventional religionist or a skeptical, unbelieving pagan and have him stabbed broad awake as he will be at an open meeting of AA because the 12 steps of their program are so applicable to others than alcoholics. And because there is so much accumulated wisdom about the cure of souls in them, they are listed below.

30:40

Moderator And then in this book, Sam lists the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. I thought this was a cool one, of course, because he's speaking directly about AA, but when he's saying, what can happen to someone at an open AA meeting, they can be stabbed broad awake and a conventional religionist or a skeptical or someone who's an atheist or unbelieving pagan, they can be stabbed broad awake at an open AA meeting. It took me back to the very beginning of my time in Al-Anon. My wife had started going to AA meetings and I didn't want her to go to these meetings. I wanted her to be home every night where I could keep an eye on her.

31:27

Nick And she kept going to these meetings and said she wasn't gonna stop. And she was telling me they were a good thing. And I reached out to someone in AA who ended up becoming my sponsor, but I basically reached out to him to kind of snoop in and see what was going on in the AA meetings. And I called, told him I didn't want my wife going to those meetings. And she's acting like she's been to some kind of religious church revival or something.

32:02

Nick And he told me, Nick, I think that God is more present at an AA meeting than he is at church on Sunday morning. And that's something that's stuck with me ever since. And I've been able to discover that myself. I participate in Al-Anon for so many years. I believe God is very present in both fellowships.

32:25

Nick Next is a book titled Freedom and Faith, America's Choice, Christ or Tyranny. And as you get into the World War II era and the sort of the national fight against communism, the Oxford Group and Sam sort of really got mixed up in some of the political stuff going on across the world. And this is one of the books that sort of delves into some of that. And you'll see here on the slide, there's a signed copy that I've been able to find somewhere over the years. It was published in 1949 by Fleming H.

33:04

Moderator Revel Company. And the quote I took here comes from chapter 11, Democracy and the Family. And on page 53, it reads, when God is at the heart of a family, there are few problems that cannot be worked out in fellowship and in prayer. Faith in God carries a man and a woman over the time when they wonder whether they can keep on together and gives them a new basis for understanding. And of course, that's just one that touches my heart because I'm an Al-Anon member and in the midst of my wife's alcoholism, we had two little kids and I really thought our family is falling apart and so was our marriage.

33:48

Moderator And my wife ended up going to a treatment center and things were just really tough. And I thought I'm gonna lose everything that's important to me here in my life. And thank God that the people in that treatment center encouraged me to go to Al-Anon, encouraged my wife to go to AA. And we were able to come be a part of the healing that takes place in the fellowships. And God carried us through that very difficult time.

34:20

Nick Next is a audio quote from Sam where he's talking about finding faith. And this is kind of a funny one. Beginners need all kinds of practical self-starters and couragers to experiment. For nobody else. a clown face sitting in a chair reading a book and wishing he had it.

34:40

Nick We often begin by acting as if faith were true, in order to find out whether it is true. That's precisely what the scientist does when he thinks a hypothesis may be true. He treats it as if it were true, only to find out whether it is true or not. It works out the same way with faith. I've always thought the first steps toward it ought to be made severely experimental, put within the reach of the greatest skeptic, provided he's got an open and an honest mind.

35:15

Nick I can't get away from the feeling that fundamentally it is a spiritual experience. I like this little recording for a couple of reasons. They say we have a program of action. It says in the big book, these are the steps that we took, which are suggested as a program of action. We don't have a program in recovery where we sit around in a chair reading a book.

35:42

Nick That's not where we're going to find faith, sitting in a chair reading a book, wishing we had it. Instead, we have a program of action. And he says here we often begin by acting as if faith were true in order to find out that it is true. One of my favorite Al-Anon speakers, Arbutus O'Neill, when she would share her story, she said that in the beginning she worked the 12 steps to prove to her sponsor that they wouldn't work. And I'll be damned, she found out they did.

36:19

Moderator And I think sometimes that's the way it worked. It was a similar experience for me. My sponsor was always talking about how great the 12 steps were and how they would change my life. And I sort of thought, well, I'll work these 12 steps with you just to prove that they won't work. But in my case, they did.

36:43

Nick Next is a book titled The Church Alive. You'll see here on the United States printing on the left, it says practical helps toward an effective ministry, a guide for clergy and congregation. And the one on the right is the United Kingdom printing. And this book was published in 1950 by E.P. Dutton and Company.

37:04

Moderator And there's a couple of signed copies that I have. And the United Kingdom printing was also published in 1950 by Arthur James. And the quote here comes from chapter three, which is titled What are our sources of power? On page 65, Sam wrote, it takes a long sickness sometimes or some other involuntary interruption of his work to make a man face himself and his life and his faith apart from his work. And he's speaking directly to clergymen there or preachers, people involved in ministry getting so caught up in their work, which is, you know, helping others or preaching the gospel to other people that they can sometimes be blind to their own shortcomings.

37:49

Moderator Where he says here, it takes sometimes a long sickness to make a man face and face himself and his life and his faith. And it reminds me and they told me early on that the worst I told him, my wife's alcoholism was the worst thing that ever happened to me in my life. And they told me the old timer said, well, the worst thing in your life will be transformed into the best thing. And that principle was carried over into the big book where it reads that we've been given the power to help other people. And all the struggles that I went through in God's hands have turned out to be the greatest thing in my life, to be able to be there for another person who's struggling with alcoholism in a loved one.

38:44

Nick Next is a book titled They're on the Way, Modern Spiritual Experiences. This one was published in 1951 by E.P. Dutton and Company. And in chapter four, titled Power Comes to a Parson, page 105, the quote reads, All right, I do. He said, I'm ready.

39:02

Nick And together they got down on their knees and the parson prayed for him. Together, they asked God to come into his life and take it over. It was real. It went deep. He meant it.

39:15

Nick That is now more than 15 years ago, and he still means it. He counts that day the turning point in his life. And I thought that was a cool one to include. Earlier, I mentioned the act of surrender. That was a big part of the Oxford group.

39:34

Nick And they speak here about getting down on your knees and turning your life over to God, which is what we would call third step. And interestingly enough, for those of you familiar with the history of the 12 steps, when Bill originally wrote step seven, humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings. He actually wrote humbly on our knees, asked God to do that. And I think when Bill would tell the story, he would laugh about it and say, well, you know, the other alcoholics came to me and said, this ain't going to work. Bill, you can't have alcoholics getting down on their knees.

40:15

Moderator You got to take that out of there. Next is a book titled How to Become a Christian. And here's a couple of signed copies that I've been able to collect over the years. I mentioned earlier, sometimes the signed copies will end up in a library somewhere and then they discard them. And you'll see one of them came from a library.

40:40

Nick It was published in 1953 by Harper and Brothers. And in chapter six, titled Sources of Power, page 117, the quote reads, unless we dig deep into great books on spiritual consecration, we shall not know how to handle many of the situations that arise or what our next step in growth ought to be. I thought that was a cool one to include, because. I think the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous is what many of us would consider to be a great book on spiritual consecration. And it's often shared in meetings that when whatever struggle you're facing in life, you can pull out the big book and find some sort of guidance on what your next steps ought to be.

41:27

Nick So to apply Sam's principle here, I think digging deep into the big book has always been very helpful to me. Next is a funny audio clip from Sam speaking about what if AA were to turn into a league of dry and righteous people? I think this is the thing that AA is doing around the world. We don't hold up these people as saints and paragons, and one church holds up its people as saints and paragons. We don't say, look how good these people are.

42:01

Moderator We say, look what they used to be, and how much progress has been made, and come join this fellowship of honesty and of need. If there's ever got to be a league of dry and righteous people. Well, I'm not going to finish that sentence because you'd all be drunk by sundown. That's kind of funny, and I think sometimes it's good to laugh about this kind of stuff. And, you know, thank God that we don't become a league of dry and righteous people.

42:36

Nick Next is a book titled By the Power of God. This one was published in 1954, and there's a signed copy there that wasn't signed until 1960. It was published by Harper and Brothers and took a little piece here from chapter nine titled What Awakening Takes. And on page 137, it reads the deepest and most important work is always with individuals hearing their story, going out to them in understanding, helping them to see where Christ can make all the difference. And I thought that was a cool one to include, because I think there's lots of opportunities in AA, Al-Anon, or any 12 step group for service.

43:18

Nick You know, there's service at a group level, district level, state level or national level. But I think the most important service that we can do is to serve as a sponsor. And Sam says here the deepest and most important work is always with individuals. And then, you know, what do we do as a sponsor? We listen or hear another person's story and we go out to them in understanding.

43:46

Moderator We can understand exactly how they feel because we've been there before. And it also gives me deep gratitude to think how blessed I am that the guys who have been my sponsors so freely gave of themselves all the time that they devoted to working with me. I'm grateful for that. Next is one titled The Experiment of Faith. And it says here at the bottom of the dust jacket, a book for laymen on how to begin their Christian life, how to live it and how to make it real to others.

44:23

Nick And this was published in 1957 by Harper and Brothers. See, there's a just Sam wrote his name in this copy. No inscription. And then Chapter four is titled How to Keep Going Spiritually. And on page 33, the quote reads, What we all need is a radiant, loving fellowship that quickly includes people in it, making them jealous for inclusion because they are jealous to find the faith which it represents.

44:50

Nick And I think there's two important things there. One, having a fellowship around you, which we have in a Allen on any 12 step group. And the quote in the big book, it says, if you want what we've got and are willing to go to any links. So it's a principle that was carried right over into the early days of a. Next is a book titled Faith at Work.

45:18

Nick This one was published in 1958 and the publisher was Hawthorne Books. There's another signed copy. And in the forward, this is a book. Sam is not the author. It has lots of different stories in it.

45:32

Nick I think he served as the editor and wrote the forward. So the quote from the forward on page 13 reads, there is a new quality about their lives, which they could not keep hidden even if they wanted to do so. These people are touching the lives of other men and women about them and bringing new hope to many whose hope had faded away. A breath of fresh air into the cobweb souls of some who are spiritually dead. And in many of Bill Wilson's talks, he would often speak of his alcoholism as a spiritual sickness.

46:09

Nick And some talks, he called it a spiritual cancer. And Sam would often preach about going out and helping people. Like I had said earlier, he his message wasn't let's sit around and feel good about our community with God. Let's go out and help other people. And again, that's what he's talking about here is going out and helping the next person, helping people whose hope had faded away.

46:38

Nick And, you know, 18 years being an Al-Anon, my life is really great today. But I still remember what it was like to go to that first meeting with my head hung low where I had no hope at all. And, you know, I'm so thankful for the people that were there to help turn things around for me and show me that life could get better, better than I ever imagined. And I think that's exactly what Sam's talking about, being there for the people whose hope had faded away. Next is an audio quote where Sam talks about the people who know they need help.

47:19

Nick Not only are the naughty God's problem, even more God's problem, I think, are the good. Years ago in New York, an older woman in my parish asked me if I would talk with a young woman alcoholic who was a friend of her granddaughter about drinking. This older woman had belonged to the church since before I was born. I said to her, you're a Christian, why don't you talk with her? She said, well, you see, I've never had that problem.

47:53

Moderator And I said, neither have I. But I went on to say some things to her about getting tight on impatience and self-will and self-righteousness and some other things, so that it never has been much of a jump from me to the people that get drunk on gin and whiskey. You see, she had told God many a time on a Sunday morning that she was a miserable offender, but she didn't really feel like it. Else it wouldn't have been hard for her to talk about any kind of sin with any kind of person on the face of the earth. That's what the Christian church is.

48:36

Nick It isn't all the best people in town on parade. It's the people in town that know they need help. I think that's a great little clip there for a number of reasons, but you can tell Sam has a great sense of humor and he was able to laugh about things. What he's expressing here, he would often say that there's no difference between an alcoholic getting drunk on alcohol and people getting drunk on pride, self-righteousness, anger, all of these types of things. And Sam was known to be a radical type of preacher.

49:14

Moderator And what he's saying here about the church is that the Christian church is not the best people in town on parade. It's the people in town who know they need help. And I think oftentimes, even myself, I can think the church is something different. But I think fundamentally what Sam is expressing here is true. And certainly what we find when we go to any 12-step group, we know that all of us are there because we need help.

49:46

Nick We're closing in on the end of things. We got three more books, one audio clip, and then we'll wrap things up. This book next in the slideshow is titled With the Holy Spirit and with Fire. And it was published in 1960 by Harper and Brothers. There's another signed copy.

50:06

Nick I can read his handwriting here on this one. It says with love and joy and the fellowship of the spirit. Which is a. Excuse me, which is something that comes or was carried right over into the big book Fellowship of the Spirit. In chapter three, coming into the stream of the spirit, page 42, Sam wrote, the trouble with a lot of us is that we have never been broken.

50:33

Nick We grew up as nice people in the church. We covered our real sins with pride. We did not dare let ourselves feel desperate. We did not cry out to God in despair. We would carry things through ourselves.

50:48

Nick Therefore, nothing ever really got at our unbroken, still feverish pride. And interestingly, what Sam's expressing here is sort of the opposite of what I think common knowledge would lead you to believe. No one outside of recovery would say it's a good thing to be broken. At least it's not a common thing. But if you've been in recovery a while, you know that being broken, admitting you're powerless over something can transform into one of the best things that ever happened to you.

51:22

Nick I know that it certainly has me. Next is a book titled Beginning Your Ministry, and Sam wrote this specifically for people in the ministry. It was published in 1963, and you'll see here noted that this was the last book published before Sam's passing. And there is a signed copy that he signed in June of 63, very late in his life. Chapter five is titled Focus on the Individual.

51:49

Nick On page 57, the quote reads, A person can let a good idea go by him like a baseball way out over left field. But a story gets very close to home and will not quite let him ignore it. As in a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, the clear, inescapable conclusion, if it happened to them, why shouldn't it happen to me? And I think the principle that Sam's expressing was carried right over into Alcoholics Anonymous in the very beginning, that we don't go out and preach ideas to people. Instead, we share our story.

52:26

Nick And he's saying an idea can go. go right over somebody's head like a baseball, but a story gets very close to home and will not let someone ignore it. That's the power in being able to just share your story with another person. Next is a book titled Extraordinary Living for Ordinary Men, and this was the first book that was published after Sam passed away, and it's excerpts selected from the writings of Sam Shoemaker by his daughter and the staff at Faith at Work, and in chapter 8, which is titled The Wonder of Forgiveness, on page 83, Sam wrote, psychology must recognize that in the feeling of responsibility for one's own life lies the one possible hope of curing a person who has been escaping from life by blaming others for his or her condition. Therefore, guilt holds it in.

53:22

Moderator Not only shame about the past, but also hope about the future, and I think this is a cool one for me because when I was in the early days of going to Al-Anon, I had tried out going to a psychologist, and you know, it says in the big book that we're to cooperate with doctors and psychologists and outside people, and I believe in that, but also sometimes in psychology, they can try to get you to escape from these feelings of shame or guilt, which are feelings that we learn in 12-step recovery that can actually drive us to real change in our life, and if we just sort of hide from them or ignore them, try to brush them to the side, it may never lead us to making the necessary changes in our life. Next is the end of the presentation, and it's an audio clip by Sam about the spiritual angle for all mankind, and we'll play this and close things out. There's just one answer for any sin and any need on the face of this earth, and that lies in the forgiveness of God for the past and the grace of God for the future. I take that to be the spiritual angle of AA, because it is the spiritual angle for all mankind. I close with a prayer that is said to be the prayer of a long-dead slave.

54:55

Moderator Oh Lord, I ain't what I ought to be, and I ain't what I want to be, and I ain't what I'm going to be, but oh Lord, I thank you that I ain't what I used to be, and that was Sam speaking at the 1960 AA convention, and I think a powerful message there that you could say recovery boils down to two things, the forgiveness of God for the past and the grace of God for the future, and as Sam said there at the end of his talk, thank God we ain't what we used to be, and thanks Tim and Mike, everyone at Recovery Speakers, appreciate y'all. Thank you, Nick, great job as always, and now we have some time for questions. If anyone has a question for Nick, please use the raise hand function, and I will call on you to unmute and ask your question. First up is Mike, you can unmute. You there, Mike?

55:59

Nick Mike's still muted. Yep, I'm trying here. Any other questions, and we can come back to Mike. June. Hi there, hi everybody, June Alcoholic.

56:08

Nick Hey Nick, thank you for the presentation, that was awesome. I've always loved Sam Shoemaker. I was wondering if you knew, it was, I forget which book, because there are a lot of books coming up, but I believe it was Page 60 where the alcoholic meets the sober alcoholic, and the alcoholic wanted what he had. Was that about Bill and Abby, and do you know, or? Yeah, I'll try to pull it back up here if I can while I multitask, but I think he wasn't speaking about any specific person, I think he was just providing an example of how you can carry the message to another person in Alcoholics Anonymous.

56:53

Nick Okay, we're, you were gonna pull it up or no? Yeah, I'm gonna try, let me search back through there and see if I can find it. Okay, it was just right around finding happiness. And the other, while you're looking for that, the other question I had, like if Bill took some of these quotes or ideas from Shoemaker, and Shoemaker published them after the big book came out, they, Bill and Sam had contact with each other, right, so they spoke often, and that's how Bill got some of these ideas. He didn't get them from the published writings, correct?

57:33

Moderator Oh, that's right, yeah, many of these books were published, well, years after the big book was published in 1939, so to, I guess, just to give a brief little history, so at the Calvary Reach, they had a mission house called the Calvary House, where they were helping all sorts of people, you know, there were like homeless people, people who were drunks, people involved in the Oxford group, it was an outreach program, and that's where Ebby was attending services, and they had meetings through the week where people would go up in front of the group and accept Christ, this sort of stuff, and when Ebby visited Bill, Bill started going to these meetings at the Calvary House, where Sam may be there preaching to people, of course, he, you know, preached at church on Sunday, but Bill would go to some of those gatherings at Calvary House drunk, before he went to town's hospital and sobered up, so when Bill would speak about Sam, he would talk about remembering the first time that he saw him, and some of the messages and principles that he was talking about, so Bill was exposed directly to Sam right there at Calvary Church, Calvary House there in New York, but these were also common principles throughout the Oxford group, so the things Sam was teaching were adopted all throughout the Oxford group across the country, so many of the things that Bill would have gotten directly from Sam in New York, Dr. Bob would have probably been hearing similar stuff at the Oxford group gatherings in Akron, so it definitely wasn't like Bill took Sam's ideas and just ripped them off, it was more just all these common principles throughout the Oxford group that helped Bill, hold what worked for us, so, but Bill and Sam Shoemaker stayed friends, right? They, over the years, is my understanding? Yeah, they did, and Sam spoke at a few of the different AA conventions, I think there was a period of time where they weren't as close as they were in the early days, Sam was very engaged in the Oxford group, you know, and at one point, Bill and the alcoholics sort of pulled out of the Oxford group, and Sam was still plugged in, but some years later, Sam actually pulled out of the Oxford group himself over some differences, and then sort of linked back up closely with Alcoholics Anonymous all the way to his death. Gotcha, yeah, that's great.

60:16

Nick Was Dr. Bob a friend of Sam Shoemaker's as well? I think there was some interaction, to what extent, I really don't know, but I don't think Bob and Sam were as close as Bill. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't hear much of that either, I've been around, not long, but a little bit, so I just wondered if there was something about a relationship there that I didn't know about, but back to the original, did you find that clip, or is that, is that in reference to Bill and Abby, did he, did, or? I don't think that it is, so he's given a sort of a hypothetical situation here, where he says, but suppose our faith in God is very shaky, how can we surrender to him?

61:09

Moderator We need to surrender to the nearest thing, to God that we know as a preliminary finding him. We must surrender to the God we see in others, and it is entirely in order for us to do this, to walk for a while with his, this crutch, a drunken wastrel, having had no religious training or knowledge, whatever, I think he's just giving an example here, I don't think it's specific. Where he says they had been drunk together many a time, but one of them had found something, and the other wanted what he saw. When, when was this right here published? What year?

61:50

Nick 46, I think, yeah. I'm, I'm sure thinking that Sam took this from, you know, the talks that he had with Bill. It, it sure sounds like Abby and Bill, but that's just my opinion, so, but thank you, wonderful presentation, really appreciate you. No, thank you. Thank you so much for the questions, June, and next, let's try Mike again.

62:15

Nick You can, should be able to unmute. Thank you. Thanks, Nick, for the presentation. I, you know, it just kind of lit up like a Christmas tree when I saw some of his writings, you know, you could see how similar Bill Wilson was writing the same way. I, you know, I had the question, it was almost answered with the last lady there, she asked about Frank Bookman, I think, and Sam Shoemaker.

62:43

Nick They had a falling out in 41. Do you know what happened with, with that at all? I think there's probably a lot more to it than what I know, or maybe what, what is public knowledge, but there got to be a lot of controversial things with Frank Bookman making some comments about Adolf Hitler, which I think were sort of taken out of context, and in his opinion, and that blew up into sort of a, I guess, a public relations nightmare, and there were a lot of different things, I think, where Sam and Frank may have had some disagreements. Frank Bookman was often criticized for sort of living a life of luxury. Whether or not that's really true, I couldn't tell you, but I don't know what the real fundamental big difference was or falling out between the two, but I do know that they just had sort of different ideas and philosophy.

63:44

Moderator One thing I know that Sam and Frank didn't see eye to eye on was Frank's ideas about going out and getting sort of wealthy and prominent people and saving them, where Sam was more of, we go out and help anybody that needs it. We help the poor and the needy, not just the most prominent people. So, maybe a culmination of things led to their ultimate falling out, but those controversial comments, I think, really caused the Oxford group a lot of trouble. Thank you, Mike. And next is Gary.

64:20

Nick You can unmute. There we go. Whoops. Hi there, everybody. I'm Gary.

64:25

Nick I'm an alcoholic. Nick, with the way that you provided the format, you did a very nice one paragraph out of a whole mess of books and so forth, but I'd be interested in you picking your top three, because most of us could never afford all the books that you have. So, do you have any favorites? And which one, what are they? The one thing I will put in that when Bill left the Oxford group, to a degree, that was because there were assistants to Sam Shoemaker that were saying, basically, that they shouldn't have separate meetings over at Bill's house, and they really had a logjam over the fact that Bill was only interested in serving drunks, rather than saving countries, like the Oxford group.

65:15

Nick But anyway, just what would your, you know, the Holy Fire book, you know, that had five references to Alcoholics Anonymous, so I would leave that, probably, as a favorite of mine. Yeah, that would be tough. You know, I like the early ones. I think Children of the Second Birth, I think, is probably my favorite Sam Shoemaker book. The early stuff was cool.

65:40

Nick I don't know if I could pick the If I Be Lifted Up, that's a neat one. I think I prefer his early stuff better than the later ones, although one of his later books, How to Become a Christian, I think is really neat, and I like that one. It makes for a tough decision, but what I liked about Sam is he didn't use a bunch of fancy words or phrases in his books. You know, they were pretty straightforward, and they're not hard to read. It was a clear, straightforward message, and you know, it's neat for me when I read one of Sam's books, because I've listened to so many of his old sermons and speeches, so it's one of those guys where I can read his book and sort of hear it in my head in his voice, which kind of makes it neat, and it's special to read his books and know the influence that he had, you know, on Bill Wilson and the early folks.

66:49

Nick It makes it pretty special for me, but thanks, Gary. Yeah, thank you, Gary, and I just want to throw out one. I think his first book was Realizing Religion, and I think that's the only one that I've read the entire book, because it's really small, and I loved it. I thought it was just perfect, the way that he writes, and it was just so relatable to my experience that I really liked that one. Up next is Marty.

67:21

Nick You can unmute. Hey, Marty. I think you're still on mute. Hang on. I'm clicking.

67:28

Nick Okay, okay, good. Marty, Recovered Alcoholic. Oh, Nick, thank you so much. I'm so glad I came on, you know, I mean, coming on, because I was at your first presentation. This is the follow-up to it, you know, and, you know, when you listen to tapes and Sam Shoemaker speaking on the podium, he turned down being a co-founder, you know, because he loved the alcoholic, but he just understood this whole anonymous program, you know, and also the teachings of Sam Shoemaker, the language.

68:01

Nick If you hung around with him, and Bill hung around with him, and, you know, definitely, you know, a lot of the teachings, the steps are in our big book, the words of Sam Shoemaker, you know, it's incredible. Dick B., also, if you read his things, A Woman June, you know, get things on Dick B., and there's a lot of credibility to what Nick offered tonight, and then there's things back up. History, you gotta wear it loosely in AA, you know, but there are things that are credible documents, and, you know, you mentioned the book, How to Become a Christian. I'm not gonna pull it out, but about the 12th step, you know, in the back of that book, and he shares how there are people who go to church, and they just go to church, and there's people who bring people to church, and want other people to talk to them, and then, you know, Sam always believed in sitting across from someone doing this inventory, and in the last one, he says, meeting people in informal ways, sharing your faith, not experience, with them. Which one are you?

69:17

Nick I mean, God helps me find these things. You have a wonderful presentation. I might not have asked the question, but it's amazing. When the book came from How to Become a Christian, I found it in a customer who got married by Sam Shoemaker, an older woman, an old lady that's looking through her books, and when it came, it was where Sam is talking about, go to a church, and nothing happens, with power, and he says, go to Yale Hope Mission, because that's where he went, you know, and nothing happens there either, but he says, go to an AA meeting, and that's where power is vital. Yeah, yeah, you read, you know, read the book, so you're gonna keep reading these books, more stuff, like the big book comes out, I mean, it was already there, but it's amazing, becomes a living thing in your mind, and your experience in it.

70:18

Moderator Thank you so much. I hope to listen to this one another time, another time, you know, thank you. Yeah, thanks Marty. One of the recorded talks that you can listen to Bill Wilson on Recovery Speakers, he gives sort of an analogy or comparison to the principles of AA being like a grain of wheat that can be stored for centuries but then put into the fertile ground. And he would say the principles of AA are ideas that have been around for centuries.

70:50

Nick And, you know, we didn't invent these things. We just sort of put it all together. But thanks, Marty. Thank you, Marty. And next is Arthur.

71:00

Nick You can unmute. Can you hear me? Yes, sir. Okay. Arthur Gray for Alcoholics.

71:06

Nick Thanks, Nick. I enjoyed your presentation. I'd like your comments on, there's a book out and I read it and I thought it was true, the sole sponsorship about Bill being found at his lawyers when he was in a, I guess the NAACP, not in, YMCA room using a cardboard box for a tablecloth and Shoemaker showed up. And in the bad weather and was giving Bill guidance. Your comments, please.

71:34

Moderator Yeah, I have to be honest. That's a book I haven't read, unfortunately, so I couldn't speak to it. I wish I could answer your question. Tim might know. I can just share that I know that I've heard the story.

71:51

Nick Well, I know that particular book, The Sole Sponsorship is about Bill's relationship with Father Ed Dowling. And the story that I've heard was Bill was staying at the 24th Street Clubhouse and Father Ed showed up in the middle of a storm and that's when they first met and they became friends after that. Okay. I am familiar with that story. So Bill and Lois, you know, were homeless for a period I think of about two years and lived in many, many different places.

72:25

Nick And one of them was the clubhouse there. And Bill would tell that story that he was having what he called an imaginary ulcer, which was what he would call I'm sick to my stomach or I'm depressed. And he was there in his depression and another guy at the clubhouse said, hey, there's somebody here at the door that wants to see you. And Bill said that, you know, he was sort of like, oh, gosh, here we go. Another drunk that needs my help.

72:59

Moderator We'll bring him up here. And it turned out to be Father Ed Dowling who had came to see Bill because he had found so many similarities between Christian faith and the teachings of the Jesuits, I believe, and how they were tied directly to what the principles were of the 12 steps. So Father Ed Dowling and Bill started their relationship there. I know Bill considered that to be a big thing in his life when he met Father Ed Dowling, who he called his spiritual sponsor. Thanks, Tim and Nick, for spreading my thinking out.

73:36

Nick I had the menaces mixed up. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. All right, well, it looks like that's it for questions tonight. Thank you again, Nick.

73:46

Moderator Thank you, everyone, for being here and everyone that asked their questions. And join us again next week for a conversation with a long timer. I will now allow everyone to unmute and thank Nick.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

Shoemaker: The Oxford Group Connection (Part 2)

Shoemaker: The Oxford Group Connection (Part 2)

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