Listen to Audio Recording

[00:00:02.080 – 00:00:03.240] Okay, so good evening everyone. [00:00:03.240 – 00:00:05.100] My name's David, and I'm alcoholic. [00:00:05.100 – 00:00:10.940] You're all very welcome to the Reading B. Meeting on Zoom, hosted by the Growing and Understanding AA group. [00:00:10.940 – 00:00:15.540] And every week we read a chapter right in the Big Book, The Creation of AA, by Bill S.. [00:00:15.540 – 00:00:21.320] And today we're finally up to chapter 23. [00:00:21.320 – 00:00:26.400] It's titled Writing the 12 Steps, and we're in December 1938, and we're… [00:00:26.400 – 00:00:29.920] Oh, we're so thrilled to have H. Eber back with us.

[00:00:29.920 – 00:00:32.299] And H. is gonna be reading that chapter first, if you're new. [00:00:32.299 – 00:00:38.100] And, uh, the audio of these meetings are c- are being recorded, and they can be found on recoveryspeakers.com. [00:00:38.100 – 00:00:42.380] And if you just put in Writing the Big Book, uh, you will be able to find that. [00:00:42.380 – 00:00:49.560] But I'll also put a link in, and I'll also put, uh, some details to contact Bill S. into the chat if you wanna contact Bill outside of this meeting. [00:00:49.560 – 00:00:54.160] And I have it here, contactyou@writingthebigbook.com. [00:00:54.160 – 00:00:58.960] If you put that into your search engine, you'll come up to that, and you'll be able to ask Bill. [00:00:58.960 – 00:01:01.700] A- Bill, I think, any question you could ask him I guess.

[00:01:01.700 – 00:01:03.640] I guess you could. [00:01:03.640 – 00:01:04.920] There, it's going into the chat. [00:01:04.920 – 00:01:09.640] And you can also contact Bill at, at, uh, what's that? [00:01:09.640 – 00:01:11.440] At teenrealbooks.com. [00:01:11.440 – 00:01:14.700] Writingthebigbook.com. [00:01:14.700 – 00:01:15.970] Thank you very much. [00:01:15.970 – 00:01:17.580] For, for any of your sponsors.

[00:01:17.580 – 00:01:18.899] It's a tough one. [00:01:18.899 – 00:01:19.180] It's a tough one to figure out. [00:01:19.180 – 00:01:20.520] Or G. Spaszy. [00:01:20.520 – 00:01:22.000] Thank you. [00:01:22.000 – 00:01:28.140] Okay, so Tradition F. of the Long F., "Each A group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose. [00:01:28.140 – 00:01:32.840] That, of course, is to carry its message to the alcoholics who are still suffering," unfortunately. [00:01:32.840 – 00:01:40.840] So in keeping within the spirit of A's traditions, the main purpose of these reading book meetings is to improve our understanding of The Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[00:01:40.840 – 00:01:41.360] I'd like to say all of them. [00:01:41.360 – 00:01:43.679] Thank you, Reggie, appreciate that. [00:01:43.679 – 00:01:52.580] Uh, and to improve our understanding of the A message contained in the book titled Alcoholics Anonymous, and of course, the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:01:52.580 – 00:01:56.220] And, uh, we have a guest reader, as I said. [00:01:56.220 – 00:01:57.780] H. does that, is doing that for us today. [00:01:57.780 – 00:02:02.880] We're gonna put up on screen for us now, uh, a short version of the Set A. Prayer. [00:02:02.880 – 00:02:09.560] And if you're new, we are just using God as a term of your own understanding.

[00:02:09.560 – 00:02:10.520] And here we go. [00:02:10.520 – 00:02:14.920] So if you'd like to unmute, we'll say that c- together. [00:02:14.920 – 00:02:17.540] Get into the language of AA, of course, the spirit of AA. [00:02:17.540 – 00:02:21.470] God- God- Please help me- Please help me- … [00:02:21.470 – 00:02:21.940] to set aside- … [00:02:21.940 – 00:02:22.640] to set aside- … [00:02:22.640 – 00:02:26.109] everything I think I know- …

[00:02:26.109 – 00:02:26.110] everything I think I know- … [00:02:26.110 – 00:02:26.329] but the mind- … [00:02:26.329 – 00:02:26.960] but the mind- … [00:02:26.960 – 00:02:27.960] of my new experience … [00:02:27.960 – 00:02:30.060] of my new experience Amen. [00:02:30.060 – 00:02:36.100] And we're just before we have the moment of silence, I just f- wanna bring Jim W. in because we do have some questions at the end. [00:02:36.100 – 00:02:39.020] Jim, if you wanna come in and mention that for us, that'd be good.

[00:02:39.020 – 00:02:39.620] Thank you, Jim. [00:02:39.620 – 00:02:40.940] Thank you, David. [00:02:40.940 – 00:02:44.310] My name's Jim, and I'm an alcoholic, and I'll be back later for the Q&A. [00:02:44.310 – 00:02:51.820] We have a question and answer session with our author, Bill S., and we wanna take advantage of him. [00:02:51.820 – 00:02:57.820] And if you have any questions while we're reading, write them down or send them to me and we'll ask him. [00:02:57.820 – 00:03:00.240] This is not a general discussion Q&A. [00:03:00.240 – 00:03:06.940] We can have that after this meeting, but these are, these are just Q&A about what we're reading today, please.

[00:03:06.940 – 00:03:07.690] Thank you. [00:03:07.690 – 00:03:08.440] I'll see you later. [00:03:08.440 – 00:03:10.000] Thank you, Jim W.. [00:03:10.000 – 00:03:12.400] Now, if we just have a few moment silence and gather our thoughts. [00:03:12.400 – 00:03:15.510] And as I said, when we think of those alcoholics who are still suffering. [00:03:15.510 – 00:03:18.160] A- and we just give some thought to their family members as well. [00:03:18.160 – 00:03:25.780] We keep, uh, uh, Wes in our thoughts.

[00:03:25.780 – 00:03:27.820] Wes had a bad injury the other day. [00:03:27.820 – 00:03:32.799] He fell and hurt his head and his back, so please keep Wes B. in your prayers. [00:03:32.799 – 00:03:34.580] Thank you, H.. [00:03:34.580 – 00:03:39.860] Thank you, everyone. [00:03:39.860 – 00:03:41.140] Appreciate your attention. [00:03:41.140 – 00:03:45.940] I'm gonna put up on the screen the Kindle version for those who have yet to get the book. [00:03:45.940 – 00:03:48.160] So we're just gonna be following on to H.'s pace.

[00:03:48.160 – 00:03:50.560] H. Eber, over to you. [00:03:50.560 – 00:03:53.480] Okay. [00:03:53.480 – 00:03:56.200] My name is H. Eber, and I am an alcoholic. [00:03:56.200 – 00:04:01.940] Uh, wanna thank, uh, David for inviting me back to do this. [00:04:01.940 – 00:04:12.100] Um, always a pleasure to share the screen with, uh, notables like Dave K. and of course my dear friend, uh, [00:04:12.100 – 00:04:12.960] Bill S.. [00:04:12.960 – 00:04:18.660] Um, didn't realize that, you know, do you know that Bill S. is Jewish?

[00:04:18.660 – 00:04:28.020] I didn't realize that until the other day when you told me that you were going out to celebrate Christmas by going to Chinese restaurant on Saturday. [00:04:28.020 – 00:04:38.360] We had a meeting on Sunday rather, and you told me you couldn't go because the lady Sarah had booked a reservation for you at a Chinese restaurant, and I didn't realize, [00:04:38.360 – 00:04:39.880] whoa, is that Christmas already? [00:04:39.880 – 00:04:42.580] 'Cause that's what we Jews do on Christmas, Dan. [00:04:42.580 – 00:04:44.780] We head for the Chinese restaurant. [00:04:44.780 – 00:04:46.720] So I didn't realize you were. [00:04:46.720 – 00:04:49.570] I, I hardly- Hope you had a nice day …

[00:04:49.570 – 00:04:50.400] hardly am, H.. [00:04:50.400 – 00:04:53.060] I'm a, I'm more Buddhist than anything else these days. [00:04:53.060 – 00:04:55.080] Okay. [00:04:55.080 – 00:04:57.900] Back to the matter at hand. [00:04:57.900 – 00:05:01.000] Chapter 23: Writing the 12 Steps. [00:05:01.000 – 00:05:03.620] December, 1938. [00:05:03.620 – 00:05:09.600] "Ebby was still drinking, and it didn't look as if he were going to stop any time soon.

[00:05:09.600 – 00:05:19.900] This was both frustrating and painful for Bill because there seemed to be nothing more he could do for the man who had first brought him the gift of sobriety. [00:05:19.900 – 00:05:20.390] Thatcher- [00:05:20.688 – 00:05:30.768] was definitely on a run, and even his current residence in New Jersey evangelical Christian community wasn't helping to con- helping him to control his drinking. [00:05:30.768 – 00:05:40.968] If E.'s intimate knowledge of the effectiveness of the spiritual solution and his experiences during a couple of significant periods of sobriety [00:05:40.968 – 00:05:44.548] couldn't keep him sober, then what possibly could? [00:05:44.548 – 00:05:47.588] Bill found the whole situation baffling. [00:05:47.588 – 00:05:57.588] At the same time, Hank P. was relentlessly pursuing him to write such a more s- write a much more secular version of their

[00:05:57.588 – 00:06:07.968] solution, and had offered his own completely non-religious chapter to employers, along with the proposed Q&A chapter as two concrete examples [00:06:07.968 – 00:06:12.848] of how their program of recovery could be packaged and presented to the world. [00:06:12.848 – 00:06:23.488] But even in the face of Hank's constant barrage of suggestions, Bill steadfastly refused to take the book in the direction his friend insisted [00:06:23.488 – 00:06:31.928] was so necessary if they were going to turn it into a runaway bestseller, and thereby get people sober all across the country. [00:06:31.928 – 00:06:42.468] Despite these persistent arguments, Bill continued to write about a method of recovery that rebo- relied primarily on a supreme being [00:06:42.468 – 00:06:48.708] and a spiritual solution so essential for any successful attempt to quit drinking. [00:06:48.708 – 00:06:52.568] A challenge of heroic proportions.

[00:06:52.568 – 00:06:59.528] In all, in addition to all this personal turmoil, Bill had a much larger problem. [00:06:59.528 – 00:07:09.968] He'd finally reached the point where he had to put down on a paper the set of clear instructions on how to get sober, something so airtight [00:07:09.968 – 00:07:16.508] that the rationalizing alcoholic wouldn't be able to wiggle out of it no matter how hard he tried. [00:07:16.508 – 00:07:20.188] We have a footnote. [00:07:20.188 – 00:07:23.948] It's just a foot- We're just doing, we're just doing footnotes, not endnotes. [00:07:23.948 – 00:07:26.668] Oh, so we're not following those? [00:07:26.668 – 00:07:27.068] Okay.

[00:07:27.068 – 00:07:28.448] Not the endnotes. [00:07:28.448 – 00:07:29.448] Okay. [00:07:29.448 – 00:07:39.708] Doing so in a way that hopefully addressed Ebby's difficulties while simultaneously incorporating at least some aspects of Hank's more secular [00:07:39.708 – 00:07:42.848] approach seemed to be an impossible task. [00:07:42.848 – 00:07:52.888] Further complicating the matter, any set of instructions would have to acknowledge and accommodate the much more orthodox religious program practiced by [00:07:52.888 – 00:07:53.048] Dr. [00:07:53.048 – 00:07:56.228] Bob and the sober men in Akron.

[00:07:56.228 – 00:08:06.008] How to satisfy all of these profoundly contradictory in consistenc- uh, consistencies was a challenge of heroic proportions. [00:08:06.008 – 00:08:14.228] By the first week of December, W. could no longer hov- hold off any long, could not hold off any longer. [00:08:14.228 – 00:08:16.228] He had to write something. [00:08:16.228 – 00:08:16.858] Okay. [00:08:16.858 – 00:08:19.588] Hold on, we've got a footnote in the middle of that sentence. [00:08:19.588 – 00:08:22.268] Okay. [00:08:22.268 – 00:08:32.308] Okay, so despite three references, see the endnote, verifying this timeline, it is likely that all three depend on a

[00:08:32.308 – 00:08:34.688] single AA main event source. [00:08:34.688 – 00:08:44.688] Given the extremely tight compression of events necessary to accommodate a composition date as early as December 1st, it is [00:08:44.688 – 00:08:52.368] possible that Bill W. first wrote the 12 steps in mid to late November, rather than early December. [00:08:52.368 – 00:08:54.048] Back to you. [00:08:54.048 – 00:08:56.588] Okay. [00:08:56.588 – 00:09:03.548] The footnote that you're referring to, just so we're on the same page, it comes after the word "book"? [00:09:03.548 – 00:09:05.578] It's r- Yep …

[00:09:05.578 – 00:09:14.588] it's the asterisk right after "By the first week of December." First week of December. [00:09:14.588 – 00:09:16.468] I just have a number. [00:09:16.468 – 00:09:18.048] I think that's what's throwing me off. [00:09:18.048 – 00:09:20.188] Okay, I just have a number two. [00:09:20.188 – 00:09:20.488] Okay. [00:09:20.488 – 00:09:24.768] In any case, if you just give me a nudge, I'll be, uh- All right … [00:09:24.768 – 00:09:25.248] I'll be on it.

[00:09:25.248 – 00:09:26.848] Um- There's one coming up … [00:09:26.848 – 00:09:31.548] Bill could not longer, could not lo- could not hold off any longer. [00:09:31.548 – 00:09:42.048] He had to write something that described in precise detail, quote, "How the program of recovery from alcoholism really worked." Eight expositional chapters [00:09:42.048 – 00:09:49.408] had already been drafted and edited, providing more than enough background and window dressing for the book. [00:09:49.408 – 00:09:52.228] Footnote. [00:09:52.228 – 00:10:01.088] Whenever he told this story of writing the 12 steps, Bill repeatedly claimed that the chapters were written in the order in which they appeared in the book. [00:10:01.088 – 00:10:05.408] He makes this claim most clearly in A Comes of Age.

[00:10:05.408 – 00:10:16.028] Quote, "Up to that time, I had done my own story and had drafted three more chapters with the titles There Is a Solution, More A. Alcoholism, [00:10:16.028 – 00:10:18.008] and We Agnostics. [00:10:18.008 – 00:10:28.168] It was now realized that we had enough background and window dressing material, and that at this point we would have to tell how our program for recovery from alcoholism [00:10:28.168 – 00:10:29.128] really worked. [00:10:29.128 – 00:10:34.268] The backbone of the book would have to be fitted in right here." End quote. [00:10:34.268 – 00:10:36.228] Page 159. [00:10:36.228 – 00:10:40.808] Now, this makes for a good story, but as the foregoing cha-

[00:10:41.284 – 00:10:48.784] make abundantly clear, the truth was far more complicated than this simplified explanation. [00:10:48.784 – 00:10:50.084] H.? [00:10:50.084 – 00:11:00.754] Um, finally, he was going to have to put down in black and white, and in simple declarative sentences, quote, "A definitive, [00:11:00.754 – 00:11:05.124] a definite statement of concrete principles," end quote. [00:11:05.124 – 00:11:10.584] Telling the new man exactly what he had to do to get sober and then stay that way. [00:11:10.584 – 00:11:20.584] It was the seemingly insol- soluble problem that he'd been dodging for s- far too long, one that he later admitted had secretly worried [00:11:20.584 – 00:11:22.544] the life out of me for some time.

[00:11:22.544 – 00:11:28.324] Finally, it was time to stop procrastinating and start writing. [00:11:28.324 – 00:11:38.544] At this most critical and important juncture in the story, for nothing is more central to the book Alcoholics Anonymous than the program [00:11:38.544 – 00:11:48.744] of recovery outlined in the 12 steps, there are un- unfortunately no primary documents mentioning the actual writing [00:11:48.744 – 00:11:49.624] of the steps. [00:11:49.624 – 00:11:59.624] It is an unexpected gap in an otherwise rich archival record that provide a robust and vivid picture of early AA [00:11:59.624 – 00:12:07.224] history from late 1937 right up until the late point, this point in late 1938. [00:12:07.224 – 00:12:17.544] But now, at arguably the most significant moment in the entire his- story, any historical account must solely rely

[00:12:17.544 – 00:12:23.524] on the stories Bill W. later told about how he wrote the 12 steps. [00:12:23.524 – 00:12:34.024] There is not one document preserved from December 1938 or from the months immediately after that to either confirm [00:12:34.024 – 00:12:36.644] or contradict his version of what happened. [00:12:36.644 – 00:12:39.234] It is simply not mentioned. [00:12:39.234 – 00:12:49.563] Compounding the problem, and raising serious suspicion about Bill's absolute accuracy here, is the fact that the first recorded instance [00:12:49.563 – 00:12:59.724] of him telling the well-known story of how he wrote the 12 steps appears in a letter he wrote to Jack A. on December 13th, [00:12:59.724 – 00:13:05.664] 1949, a full 11 years after the event.

[00:13:05.664 – 00:13:13.844] How so much time could have elapsed without this important story being told sooner is a mystery. [00:13:13.844 – 00:13:16.604] This is truly problematic. [00:13:16.604 – 00:13:26.044] As we have noted here repeatedly, Bill was, Bill W. was no great respecter of the actual facts when it came to AA history. [00:13:26.044 – 00:13:36.084] When he wrote or talked, his purpose was not to deliver a precisely accurate accounting of what had actually happened, and [00:13:36.084 – 00:13:46.084] whenever inconvenient or messy details were encountered, Bill would modify them, sometimes significantly, and then streamline the whole story [00:13:46.084 – 00:13:56.144] for the dramatic impact he felt was necessary to underline the specific moral and ins- or inspirational message he was trying to deliver [00:13:56.144 – 00:13:57.184] to his audience.

[00:13:57.184 – 00:14:07.664] The previous chapters have supplied more than enough evidence that historians who ri- rely on Bill's ta- talks or writings for reliable [00:14:07.664 – 00:14:11.784] historical information do so at their own peril. [00:14:11.784 – 00:14:22.024] But in relation to this particular event, the day he first formulated and wrote down the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, we have no [00:14:22.024 – 00:14:30.244] supporting contemporary documents whatsoever to rely on for confirmation or contradiction. [00:14:30.244 – 00:14:38.784] There is only Bill's later version of the story, a story he told a number of times throughout the '50s and '60s. [00:14:38.784 – 00:14:48.794] What follows here is not a direct quote from Bill W., although it does incu- include many words, phrases, sentences, and even whole [00:14:48.794 – 00:14:52.693] paragraphs taken directly from his later talks and writings.

[00:14:52.693 – 00:15:00.564] Instead, it's a composite story indicated by the use of italics, combining… [00:15:00.564 – 00:15:05.684] If you don't live in the, uh, Naugatuck V., uh, we call it squiggly writing there. [00:15:05.684 – 00:15:07.464] You guys call it italics. [00:15:07.464 – 00:15:10.463] In N.- Naugatuck, Connecticut, we call it squiggly writing. [00:15:10.463 – 00:15:20.404] Uh, cobbling together different details he mentioned at one or another during his various recapings of the day he first wrote down the steps. [00:15:20.404 – 00:15:25.184] The day Bill W. wrote down the steps. [00:15:25.184 – 00:15:35.224] The stock at our new company wasn't selling anywhere near as well as we had hoped, and some of the New Y. were really unhappy about the fact that we were even

[00:15:35.224 – 00:15:37.184] trying to raise money in this way. [00:15:37.184 – 00:15:44.284] A couple of AA members came over to my house in Brooklyn, and we got into a big argument about the whole arrangement. [00:15:44.284 – 00:15:51.304] The discussion got so heated that at one point we were actually yelling and screaming at, at each other. [00:15:51.304 – 00:15:56.404] It was upsetting for everyone, but it hit me particularly hard. [00:15:56.404 – 00:16:01.004] Why couldn't these guys see how essential this money was? [00:16:01.412 – 00:16:08.272] For us to finish and publish our book and realize the stock offering was the only way for us to get that done. [00:16:08.272 – 00:16:18.292] But worries about what these money arguments might be doing to our group, and being still mad as hell at those two guys

[00:16:18.292 – 00:16:27.972] for refusing to buy any stock, wasn't the only problem he had on his, on my mind that day, or it was the only problem I had on my mind that day. [00:16:27.972 – 00:16:38.072] We had reached a troubling point where I knew something had to be done about the rest of the book, and it was a problem that had secretly worried the life [00:16:38.072 – 00:16:40.112] out of me for some time. [00:16:40.112 – 00:16:50.112] Clearly, the distant reader would need a broader and deeper articulation of the program of recovery than we already presented [00:16:50.112 – 00:16:56.972] in the book, and whatever was written would have to be as clear and comprehensive as possible. [00:16:56.972 – 00:17:05.192] Knowing the alcoholic's ability to rationalize, I realized something airtight c- would have to be written. [00:17:05.192 – 00:17:15.252] What was needed was a set of specific directions, a definite statement of concrete principles that these drunks

[00:17:15.252 – 00:17:19.492] just couldn't wiggle out of, no matter how hard they tried. [00:17:19.492 – 00:17:27.992] These problems brought on another of my imaginary ulcer attacks, my typical reaction to stress in those days. [00:17:27.992 – 00:17:33.032] And then to make matters worse, I fell into one of my depressive stit- snits. [00:17:33.032 – 00:17:43.192] The combination of these two arguments, argumentative guys and the impossible challenges I was facing with the book had put me in a really [00:17:43.192 – 00:17:45.792] bad frame of mind. [00:17:45.792 – 00:17:55.992] I was feeling dejected and discouraged, but most of all, I was suffering from a form of s- case p- terrible case [00:17:55.992 – 00:17:57.332] of self-pity.

[00:17:57.332 – 00:18:06.792] I finally went upstairs to the bes- second room f- bedroom, second floor bedroom, and laid down on the bed in an attempt to soothe my ulcer. [00:18:06.792 – 00:18:16.872] But once there, I was completely overwhelmed with just one thought: poor me, poor Bill W.. [00:18:16.872 – 00:18:26.912] However uninspired I may have felt, I was still nagged by the thought that I had to come up with a broader and deeper concept [00:18:26.912 – 00:18:37.132] of the program, one that was much more explicit than the six word of, six word of mouth steps which had gradually evolved since Gabby, Ebby [00:18:37.132 – 00:18:39.952] first visited me in the fall of 1934. [00:18:39.952 – 00:18:49.992] Having arrived at what is now chapter five, we realized that a specific program of action of recovery would had to be laid down if we [00:18:49.992 – 00:18:53.032] were going to make any further progress with the book.

[00:18:53.032 – 00:19:03.072] Slowly, my mind came into a kind of focus, and as I lay on the bed, I ran over my head, I ran over in my head [00:19:03.072 – 00:19:08.032] the word of mouth program that was currently in use and then jotted them down. [00:19:08.032 – 00:19:18.832] Although the six steps of that program were subject to variable, v- uh, considerable variation, they were approximately [00:19:18.832 – 00:19:19.852] as follows. [00:19:19.852 – 00:19:26.652] One, we admitted we were licked, that we were powerless over alcohol. [00:19:26.652 – 00:19:31.352] Two, we made a moral inventory of our defects or sins. [00:19:31.352 – 00:19:37.812] Three, we confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence.

[00:19:37.812 – 00:19:44.372] Four, we made restitution to all those we had harmed by our drinking. [00:19:44.372 – 00:19:51.952] Five, we tried to help other alcoholics with no thought of reward in money or prestige. [00:19:51.952 – 00:19:59.912] Six, we prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to practice these precepts. [00:19:59.912 – 00:20:04.292] Obviously, this was just too loose. [00:20:04.292 – 00:20:13.612] There were far too many loopholes here that an argumentative alcoholic could exploit to wiggle out of doing what he had to do to get sober. [00:20:13.612 – 00:20:20.592] What we needed was an absolutely explicit program for those people to follow. [00:20:20.592 – 00:20:29.132] I also worried that if I simply wrote down those six steps, they'd be too big for the reader to digest all at once.

[00:20:29.132 – 00:20:39.512] I decided that what I needed to do was to break them down into smaller pieces, making them not only more explicit, but also [00:20:39.512 – 00:20:45.292] much easier to understand and less subject to misinterpretation. [00:20:45.292 – 00:20:55.492] Although I was still s- I was still far from anything that could be described as a spiritual mood, I was well aware [00:20:55.492 – 00:20:59.332] that this was something that spiritual, that absolutely had to be done. [00:20:59.332 – 00:21:09.772] I relaxed, asked for guidance, then picked up the pencil and a cheap yellow pad lying beside me on the table, [00:21:09.772 – 00:21:10.772] bedside table. [00:21:10.772 – 00:21:16.452] With that tablet of paper propped up on my knee, I finally began to write.

[00:21:16.452 – 00:21:21.632] Spitting up our word of mouth program, splitting up our word of mouth program- [00:21:21.818 – 00:21:22.898] into smaller pieces. [00:21:22.898 – 00:21:30.628] My purpose was to draft more than six steps, but how many more I did not know. [00:21:30.628 – 00:21:41.488] With a s- speed that was astonishing considering my jangled emotions, I completed the first draft in perhaps half [00:21:41.488 – 00:21:42.068] an hour. [00:21:42.068 – 00:21:45.308] Let me read that again. [00:21:45.308 – 00:21:49.848] I completed the first draft in perce- perhaps half an hour.

[00:21:49.848 – 00:21:52.488] The words kept on coming. [00:21:52.488 – 00:21:59.448] When I reached a stopping point, I numbered the new steps and saw they had added up, added up to 12. [00:21:59.448 – 00:22:02.308] Somehow this number seemed significant. [00:22:02.308 – 00:22:08.408] Without any special rhyme or reason, I connected them with the 12 apostles. [00:22:08.408 – 00:22:18.828] I had started with the idea that we needed to broaden and deepen the basic concepts of the program by making them more explicit, [00:22:18.828 – 00:22:21.888] but that was the only idea I had when I began to write. [00:22:21.888 – 00:22:28.468] The most amazing thing about this experience was that I …

[00:22:28.468 – 00:22:37.748] And I've come to believe that these steps must have been inspired, because I wasn't in the least bit inspired myself when I was writing them. [00:22:37.748 – 00:22:46.588] I have no idea why I wrote the steps down in that particular order, or why they were worded as they were. [00:22:46.588 – 00:22:56.928] I paused to read over what had written, what I'd written, and one thing I noticed right away was that I had s- uh, certainly [00:22:56.928 – 00:23:00.578] enlarged the scope of the six steps considerably. [00:23:00.578 – 00:23:06.488] One of the reasons for this was that I had significantly changed the order of their presentation. [00:23:06.488 – 00:23:16.588] Most especially, in our six step program we'd been holding off mentioning God until we got to the very end, and that was the only mention [00:23:16.588 – 00:23:17.408] we made of Him.

[00:23:17.408 – 00:23:25.487] We were afraid an earlier version might scare off some of the drunks before they even got to the door, got in the door. [00:23:25.487 – 00:23:35.688] But for reasons unknown to me, my new formulation not only mentioned God several times throughout, but I'd moved Him right up to the very [00:23:35.688 – 00:23:36.908] beginning of the steps. [00:23:36.908 – 00:23:41.148] Whatever, I didn't pay much attention to at that time. [00:23:41.148 – 00:23:44.628] I actually thought it all sounded pretty good. [00:23:44.628 – 00:23:47.108] The sole author. [00:23:47.108 – 00:23:57.288] The fact that there's no contemporary evidence to support any of the details in Bill's account of writing the 12 steps is troubling,

[00:23:57.288 – 00:24:07.548] and troublesome because a careful, a careful explanation of Bill's story reveals some serious difficulties with his version of what happened [00:24:07.548 – 00:24:08.268] that day. [00:24:08.268 – 00:24:18.788] Dur- before exploring these problems, there's one fact that is beyond any doubt: Bill W. was the sole [00:24:18.788 – 00:24:23.808] author of the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:24:23.808 – 00:24:31.248] His singular responsibility for writing the steps has never been seriously questioned. [00:24:31.248 – 00:24:34.398] Although on occasion AA urban legends have credited Dr. [00:24:34.398 – 00:24:40.398] Bob or Reverend S. S. as making, as either the author or the co-author of them.

[00:24:40.398 – 00:24:48.488] However, since both men publicly and categorically denied having anything to do with the writing of the steps. [00:24:48.488 – 00:24:52.057] Bill's authorship- Footnote … [00:24:52.057 – 00:24:53.188] Hidden footnote. [00:24:53.188 – 00:24:59.448] In one of his last major talks in Detroit, December 1948, Dr. [00:24:59.448 – 00:25:04.158] Bob S. stated categorically, "I didn't write the 12 steps. [00:25:04.158 – 00:25:14.247] I had nothing to do with the writing of them." That's in, um, um, there's a URL reference to that, to that [00:25:14.248 – 00:25:14.548] quote.

[00:25:14.548 – 00:25:24.888] Uh, similarly, Sam S. speaking on June 17th, 1962 in Charlotte, North Carolina said, "To set the record straight, [00:25:24.888 – 00:25:30.088] that there's got going in AA a kind of rumor that I had a lot to do with the 12 steps. [00:25:30.088 – 00:25:34.688] I didn't have any more to do with those 12 steps other than that book had. [00:25:34.688 – 00:25:38.948] Those 12 steps I believe came to Bill by himself. [00:25:38.948 – 00:25:49.008] I think he told me they came to him in about 40 minutes, and I think it's one of the great instances of direct inspiration that I know in human history." That's [00:25:49.008 – 00:25:54.708] from Wikipedia, Sam S. named article retrieved November 7th, 2015. [00:25:54.708 – 00:25:56.368] Thank you, Riley.

[00:25:56.368 – 00:25:57.068] Thank you, H.. [00:25:57.068 – 00:25:58.888] Back to the text. [00:25:58.888 – 00:26:02.908] Bill's authorship remains clear and unchallenged. [00:26:02.908 – 00:26:12.928] Beyond this one undeniable fact, Bill's ready willingness to play fast and loose with the past naturally begs the question of why he [00:26:12.928 – 00:26:18.348] might have told the story in the creation of the 12 steps in this particular way. [00:26:18.348 – 00:26:20.488] Why many of … [00:26:20.488 – 00:26:30.928] While many of the details might well be of the 12 steps in a partic- while many of the details might well be true, several parts of his story

[00:26:30.928 – 00:26:32.488] are certainly plausible. [00:26:32.488 – 00:26:41.827] There is a very real possibility that the first writing of the steps wasn't actually the sudden inspired event- [00:26:42.245 – 00:26:44.396] he so frequently reque- reported. [00:26:44.396 – 00:26:54.756] Instead, it's possible their creation was a much more judicious and deliberate affair, a process of formulation, whether conscious [00:26:54.756 – 00:27:02.976] or unconscious, over several weeks of reviewing and contemp- contemplating his own experience while getting sober. [00:27:02.976 – 00:27:13.176] Footnote H. I must disagree with Ernest K., who found Bill W.'s AA Comes of Age version of how the steps [00:27:13.176 – 00:27:16.096] were created scrupulously accurate.

[00:27:16.096 – 00:27:20.966] That's in Kurtz N. God, page 331, note 31. [00:27:20.966 – 00:27:31.316] Ernie's praise for Bill's honesty about this seems overly generous and more than a little confusing, since in his very next endnote [00:27:31.316 – 00:27:41.376] he says that the exact formulation of these six steps was contrived by W. only as he set out to record the history in [00:27:41.376 – 00:27:42.156] AACA. [00:27:42.156 – 00:27:46.736] That's from Kurtz N. God, page 331, note 32. [00:27:46.736 – 00:27:55.136] I would suggest that W. contrived more than just the six steps in his story of the writing the 12 steps. [00:27:55.136 – 00:27:57.216] H.?

[00:27:57.216 – 00:27:59.216] Thank you. [00:27:59.216 – 00:28:01.656] Another version of how the steps were written. [00:28:01.656 – 00:28:11.656] He- however, there's a very different story about how Bill wrote the 12 steps, one he told almost two full years before [00:28:11.656 – 00:28:17.316] he rolled out this story of being inspired to break down an existing six-step program. [00:28:17.316 – 00:28:27.836] That earlier version appears in a letter Paul K. Hennessy wrote to Bill W. on October 19, 1948, recounting [00:28:27.836 – 00:28:34.316] in some detail Bill's earliest v- version of the story of the day he first wrote the steps. [00:28:34.316 – 00:28:44.696] 10 months earlier, on January 11th of that year, which was 1948, Bill had accompanied Bill and Lois…

[00:28:44.696 – 00:28:52.596] I mean, Paul had accompanied Bill and Lois on a plane ride, train ride from New York City to Washington, DC. [00:28:52.596 – 00:29:02.035] They were to attend an AA regional benefit there the following night, and Hennessy was scheduled to speak about the late Fitz M.. [00:29:02.035 – 00:29:10.816] According to Paul, the conversation on the train naturally veered towards Fitz and then to the 12 steps. [00:29:10.816 – 00:29:20.896] Once that topic had been raised, Hennessy says that W. described to Eileen B. and myself the evolution of [00:29:20.896 – 00:29:22.086] the 12 steps. [00:29:22.086 – 00:29:25.296] Bill R.- Paul R.- Hey, hold on, there's a… [00:29:25.296 – 00:29:27.945] Hold on, H. there's a- There you go …

[00:29:27.945 – 00:29:30.276] there's a footnote in the middle of that sentence. [00:29:30.276 – 00:29:32.546] So I'm gonna go back to that Yeah, there it is. [00:29:32.546 – 00:29:34.196] Described to Eileen B.. [00:29:34.196 – 00:29:34.855] There you go. [00:29:34.855 – 00:29:35.856] Yeah. [00:29:35.856 – 00:29:41.496] In his letter, Hennessy never clarifies exactly who Eileen B. was. [00:29:41.496 – 00:29:51.876] She may have been a legal associate, but his comment quoted below that he dictated his version of this conversation to her would imply she was a legal secretary

[00:29:51.876 – 00:29:53.956] rather than an associate. [00:29:53.956 – 00:29:55.856] Back to you. [00:29:55.856 – 00:29:56.716] Okay. [00:29:56.716 – 00:30:02.176] Uh, W. described to Eileen B. and myself the evolution of the 12 steps. [00:30:02.176 – 00:30:03.376] Bill reminds… [00:30:03.376 – 00:30:13.456] Paul reminds Bill that when he finished, I said that this was the first time I'd ever heard the story and that I believe it was [00:30:13.456 – 00:30:16.716] of sufficient importance to commit to writing.

[00:30:16.716 – 00:30:18.736] I'm still of that opinion. [00:30:18.736 – 00:30:29.336] In his October letter, Paul w- asks Bill to review the enclosed statement, saying that if it needs amplification [00:30:29.336 – 00:30:34.796] or clarification, please let me know so that changes can be made. [00:30:34.796 – 00:30:45.336] If, however, W. finds it to be correct, Hennessy asked him to indicate so by initialing one of the two enclosed [00:30:45.336 – 00:30:48.416] copies and then sending it back to him. [00:30:48.416 – 00:30:58.416] In the same envelope was a memo dated October 12, 1948, entitled Bill's Story [00:30:58.416 – 00:31:01.036] of the Evolution of the 12 Steps.

[00:31:01.036 – 00:31:11.336] In his third person narration of W.'s conversation on the train, Hennessy states, "Bill said that Fitz himself [00:31:11.336 – 00:31:21.776] had no actual part in the writing of the 12 steps, but that his spiritual perception and influence were a definite factor in their formulation." [00:31:21.776 – 00:31:31.536] Bill went on to explain how the pioneers in AA fought, thought, and prayed their way through to recovery. [00:31:31.536 – 00:31:36.156] In his effort to rehabilitate himself, the alcoholic was obliged… [00:31:36.156 – 00:31:45.356] In this, in his effort to rehabilitate himself, the alcoholic was obliged to, one, to admit he was powerless over alcohol. [00:31:45.356 – 00:31:49.956] Two, to make an inventory of his own character. [00:31:49.956 – 00:31:53.696] Three, to put trust in God.

[00:31:53.696 – 00:31:57.356] And four, to work with other alcoholics. [00:31:57.356 – 00:32:01.686] As it stood, the program- Footnote. [00:32:01.686 – 00:32:02.076] Footnote H. you go. [00:32:02.076 – 00:32:02.546] Sorry [00:32:03.412 – 00:32:10.912] Is it possible that these were the four steps that Hank P. had mentioned in his June 1938 ideas? [00:32:10.912 – 00:32:16.902] As it stood, the program needed clarification. [00:32:16.902 – 00:32:22.792] Bill sat down and began to figure out the various phases of his own recovery.

[00:32:22.792 – 00:32:30.572] Setting down them on paper, he found there were 12 separate distinct steps. [00:32:30.572 – 00:32:40.612] Hennessy, a Rose scholar and a practicing lawyer, notes for clarity's sake, and rather legalistically [00:32:40.612 – 00:32:50.692] in his final paragraph, that, quote, "As soon as we reached Washington on that last trip in January, I dictated my version of Bill's story [00:32:50.692 – 00:32:54.872] to Eileen B., who agreed with my version as outlined. [00:32:54.872 – 00:33:05.302] This memorandum has been cop- complied from the original draft, which is now before me, and also from a subsequent conversation [00:33:05.302 – 00:33:14.892] with Bill." Paul's mention of a subsequent conversation strongly implies that W. had once confirmed his … [00:33:14.892 – 00:33:18.332] had since confirmed hi- this version of the story.

[00:33:18.332 – 00:33:25.152] Why else would Hennessy even bother sending him the memo for his written approval? [00:33:25.152 – 00:33:35.152] There is a significantly different s- this is a significantly different story from the later one, from the one that later [00:33:35.152 – 00:33:36.472] became so famous. [00:33:36.472 – 00:33:42.272] Bill's recovery experience as basis for the Steps. [00:33:42.272 – 00:33:52.652] Besides the presentation of an interesting four-step program, W.'s claims that he, quote, "Began to figure out the various [00:33:52.652 – 00:34:02.952] phases of his own recovery," close quote, rather than breaking down some earlier version of the Steps and then used those phases of his own recovery [00:34:02.952 – 00:34:07.172] to formulate the 12 Steps is a startling admission.

[00:34:07.172 – 00:34:18.072] According to this earliest available version of the story, the 12 Steps weren't the result of a sudden inspirational expansion [00:34:18.072 – 00:34:28.152] of the s- fellowship's collective experience, six steps which had been gradually evolved since Ebby's [00:34:28.152 – 00:34:38.252] 1934 visit, but rather a judicious reformulation of the most important elements Bill could identify in the different [00:34:38.252 – 00:34:43.152] actions he himself had taken on the road to sobriety. [00:34:43.152 – 00:34:46.612] Excuse me. [00:34:46.612 – 00:34:56.852] The creation of the 12 Steps based on W.'s own experience is, in fact, a much more likely scenario than the later, [00:34:56.852 – 00:35:02.112] than the latter claim of an inspired elaboration of the supposed six steps.

[00:35:02.112 – 00:35:12.312] When B. wrote the first two drafts of his own story the previous May, the first explicitly [00:35:12.312 – 00:35:17.332] contained eight of the latter steps, and the second mentioned 10 of them. [00:35:17.332 – 00:35:26.792] As already noted here, combining these two lists, lists from May provides us with 11 of the 12 steps. [00:35:26.792 – 00:35:30.562] It's now beyond the realm of possibility- Footnote. [00:35:30.562 – 00:35:30.732] Oop. [00:35:30.732 – 00:35:31.652] You got a footnote. [00:35:31.652 – 00:35:32.022] A footnote.

[00:35:32.022 – 00:35:41.092] See, see pages 121 and 122 and 125 to 126 of this book for further details. [00:35:41.092 – 00:35:45.352] We good? [00:35:45.352 – 00:35:45.812] That's it. [00:35:45.812 – 00:35:56.292] It is not beyond the realm of possibilities that when he began to formulate his definite statement of concrete principles, W. [00:35:56.292 – 00:36:06.772] had taken some time to reread his own story to refresh his memory on what had already b- what he had already written about the steps [00:36:06.772 – 00:36:09.572] he himself had taken to get sober. [00:36:09.572 – 00:36:19.592] Frankly, it's a significant stretch to imagine how the 12 Steps could ever have been the result of a decision to break

[00:36:19.592 – 00:36:23.412] those six steps down into six smaller pieces. [00:36:23.412 – 00:36:33.752] The six steps quoted in the italicized section above contain only two, four, and four partial [00:36:33.752 – 00:36:34.252] steps. [00:36:34.252 – 00:36:43.792] While the four steps Bill mentioned to Paul H. contains just two partial step, full and part two partial steps. [00:36:43.792 – 00:36:52.832] Even taken together, these lack all of the actions suggested in the fully realized 12 Steps. [00:36:52.832 – 00:37:03.252] To break these steps into smaller pa- pieces and transform them into the 12 Steps would have required a tremendous amount [00:37:03.252 – 00:37:13.252] of creativity, including the addition of several new ideas and a number of specific previously unmentioned actions that

[00:37:13.252 – 00:37:14.312] would have to be taken. [00:37:14.312 – 00:37:22.632] On the other hand, to see the c- newly packaged steps as a different direct f- reflection- [00:37:23.100 – 00:37:27.800] Of B.'s own recovery process presents no such problems. [00:37:27.800 – 00:37:37.930] On this December evening, six months after his first writing of his own story, Bill was simply rec- [00:37:37.930 – 00:37:50.740] recycling the amount of material found there and repacking it in a more organized and nearly neatly numbered format, deflecting [00:37:50.740 – 00:37:52.120] the spotlight. [00:37:52.120 – 00:38:02.200] Questioning W.'s veracity on this particular story naturally begs another question: Why would he

[00:38:02.200 – 00:38:12.280] even bother to change his 1948, that's the train story account, of judiciously reviewing and describing his own [00:38:12.280 – 00:38:15.840] experiences into the six step story he later told? [00:38:15.840 – 00:38:21.080] Why not just continue with the story Paul H. heard on the train? [00:38:21.080 – 00:38:31.100] The most plausible explanation is that this change was another one of W.'s many attempts to direct attention away [00:38:31.100 – 00:38:39.900] from himself, and to dim the spotlight constantly shone on him for his central role in the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. [00:38:39.900 – 00:38:44.180] This is not only plausible, it is highly likely. [00:38:44.180 – 00:38:54.500] During the years of AA's early success and growth, W. had a significant problem keeping his own ego in check,

[00:38:54.500 – 00:38:57.820] something that years later he would candidly admit. [00:38:57.820 – 00:39:06.180] From the start, the proposed title of the book, The Way Out, was popular. [00:39:06.180 – 00:39:11.600] If we gave the book this name, then I could add my signature by Bill W. [00:39:11.600 – 00:39:15.840] After all, why shouldn't an author sign his book? [00:39:15.840 – 00:39:24.680] I began to forget that this was everybody's book, that I had only been the umpire of the discussion that had created it. [00:39:24.680 – 00:39:31.380] In one dark moment, I even considered calling the book the BW Movement. [00:39:31.380 – 00:39:37.620] I whispered these ideas to a few friends and promptly got slapped down.

[00:39:37.620 – 00:39:44.240] Then I saw the temptation for what it was, a shameless piece of egotism. [00:39:44.240 – 00:39:45.850] Footnote. [00:39:45.850 – 00:39:46.780] This paragraph. [00:39:46.780 – 00:39:48.060] Yeah, footnote. [00:39:48.060 – 00:39:48.640] There you go. [00:39:48.640 – 00:39:56.160] The thought of Bill whispering either of these ideas to a few friends should bring a smile. [00:39:56.160 – 00:40:01.140] What a genuinely human moment, and which friends?

[00:40:01.140 – 00:40:09.080] The thought of him flying this particular trial balloon past Hank P. certainly does not seem very likely. [00:40:09.080 – 00:40:12.860] Excuse me. [00:40:12.860 – 00:40:14.400] I was swallowing when you said that. [00:40:14.400 – 00:40:15.860] I almost choked on that. [00:40:15.860 – 00:40:18.180] Yeah, that's a good one. [00:40:18.180 – 00:40:19.070] I can imagine that. [00:40:19.070 – 00:40:21.340] I would have loved to be a fly on the wall there.

[00:40:21.340 – 00:40:22.149] Yeah. [00:40:22.149 – 00:40:28.380] In any case, this paragraph is just one illustration of the ego problems Bill struggled with. [00:40:28.380 – 00:40:33.760] Could there be a better illustration of his grandiosity than the Bill W. [00:40:33.760 – 00:40:41.059] Movement, and also evidence of his later efforts to downplay his central role as the founder of AA? [00:40:41.059 – 00:40:51.520] As his notoriety and reputation grew within Alcoholics Anonymous and beyond, W. used all of his storytelling skills [00:40:51.520 – 00:41:01.700] in a campaign of self-effacement, a concerned and calculated effort to minimize his singular responsibility for the creation [00:41:01.700 – 00:41:02.260] of AA.

[00:41:02.260 – 00:41:13.000] This effort, this effort to lower his profile went far beyond just polishing the facts to make a more dramatic and easily comprehensible [00:41:13.000 – 00:41:13.580] story. [00:41:13.580 – 00:41:23.839] Bill W. was an active myth maker, constantly creating stories that spread the credit for his own actions [00:41:23.840 – 00:41:26.980] to as many other people as possible. [00:41:26.980 – 00:41:33.840] The quote, the text quoted above is a perfect example. [00:41:33.840 – 00:41:43.059] Over the last 20 years of his life, W. constantly asserted that he wasn't really the author of the big book. [00:41:43.059 – 00:41:53.460] It was, quote, "Everybody's book, a distillation of the collective experiences of the first 100 men, a book that had written

[00:41:53.460 – 00:42:03.880] and pre- they had written and presented to the world." He would frequently declare that his only role was qu- as the quote, "Empire [00:42:03.880 – 00:42:11.720] of the discussion that it created," a claim he repeatedly, he repeated whenever he was given a chance. [00:42:11.720 – 00:42:21.800] There is s- this is so far from the truth as to be almost laughable, but it is a perfect example of the purposeful [00:42:21.800 – 00:42:31.900] reformulation of AA history, of creative myth storytelling that Bill regularly l- used to protect himself [00:42:31.900 – 00:42:34.180] from the ego, his own ego. [00:42:34.180 – 00:42:43.370] Myth-making proved to be his best defense against the, quote, "You're the man who saved my life" accusations- [00:42:43.566 – 00:42:48.036] adulation that followed him everywhere through the rest of his life.

[00:42:48.036 – 00:42:58.136] Regarding the story of how he became the umpire of the text, W. said that during the arguments following his presentation of the 12 [00:42:58.136 – 00:43:06.396] steps, he despaired, quote, "Of satisfying everyone, and I finally asked that I might be the final judge of what the book said. [00:43:06.396 – 00:43:12.476] Seeing that we would get nowhere without any such point of decision, most of the group agreed. [00:43:12.476 – 00:43:14.896] We began to carry on again. [00:43:14.896 – 00:43:17.725] Perhaps the closest Bill ever-" Footnote. [00:43:17.725 – 00:43:18.636] Oh, footnote. [00:43:18.636 – 00:43:19.096] Sorry.

[00:43:19.096 – 00:43:20.076] Not a footnote. [00:43:20.076 – 00:43:22.896] And he says, "Most of the group"? [00:43:22.896 – 00:43:29.516] That is certainly an interesting loose thread that Bill just leaves hanging in this version of the story. [00:43:29.516 – 00:43:31.636] That's it. [00:43:31.636 – 00:43:34.436] Okay. [00:43:34.436 – 00:43:44.456] Perhaps the closest Bill ever came to telling the truth about his, quote, "I was just the simple em- the umpire" myth came in, just [00:43:44.456 – 00:43:54.656] the umpire myth, came in a 1960 speech where he noted that he was, quote, "I was awful leery of the news over the book, but that situation

[00:43:54.656 – 00:44:04.696] looked better because I'd been appointed the umpire." There is some hidden irony in this comment about his appointment as the person authorized to make [00:44:04.696 – 00:44:14.336] a decision on the book, for it clearly implies that the AA members in New York, or was it just Hank and Fitz making these demands? [00:44:14.336 – 00:44:24.816] Had not Bill, did not think, did not think Bill was listening carefully enough [00:44:24.816 – 00:44:26.056] to their suggestions. [00:44:26.056 – 00:44:36.056] Was it just Hank and Fitz suggesting this, but did not think Bill was listening carefully enough to their suggestions, or why would they have negotiated such a condition for granting him the [00:44:36.056 – 00:44:40.436] power to decide what should and should not be in the book, go into the book? [00:44:40.436 – 00:44:50.616] Perhaps the most obvious example of Bill's recasting events to draw the spotlight away from himself, a reformulation that goes

[00:44:50.616 – 00:45:00.856] far beyond good storytelling and crosses over into intentional myth-making, is the ever-expanding proliferation of, quote, [00:45:00.856 – 00:45:04.636] "co-founders" of Alcoholics Anonymous over the years. [00:45:04.636 – 00:45:14.785] This is the most prominent of Bill W.'s attempts to take the focus off his sole responsibility for starting AA, keeping [00:45:14.785 – 00:45:19.516] it alive and nurturing it, whereby all but single ma- all… [00:45:19.516 – 00:45:27.496] That he all but single-handedly wrote the Big Book and became the sole author of the 12 steps, its core teaching. [00:45:27.496 – 00:45:38.456] Over the years, the number of co-founders grew and grew as Bill liberally spread the credit for the creation of AA in every [00:45:38.456 – 00:45:47.456] available direction, attempting to lower his own justifiable claim to be AA's undisputed founder.

[00:45:47.456 – 00:45:49.876] Footnote. [00:45:49.876 – 00:45:50.706] Footnote. [00:45:50.706 – 00:45:57.836] This ever-expanding list of AA co-founders has already been noted here on pages 69 to 70. [00:45:57.836 – 00:46:07.936] For just one example of W.'s active part in this myth-making, when Jack A. requested historical details for a 1950 [00:46:07.936 – 00:46:18.276] follow-up article on AA, that would be "The Drunkard's Best F." in The Saturday Evening P., April 1st, 1950, Bill concluded his [00:46:18.276 – 00:46:28.346] five-page response by saying, quote, "I suppose founders have news value, but please, Jack, go easy on Smith and [00:46:28.346 – 00:46:28.616] me.

[00:46:28.616 – 00:46:34.356] I'd also appreciate it if his part in the story could be as prominent as mine. [00:46:34.356 – 00:46:36.016] Thanks." End of quote. [00:46:36.016 – 00:46:41.256] And there, there is a GSO folder res- reference, uh, to that quote. [00:46:41.256 – 00:46:43.496] Back to H.. [00:46:43.496 – 00:46:53.496] In this same myth-making way, Bill's version of the 1948 story of writing the 12 steps based on [00:46:53.496 – 00:47:03.776] his own experiences into one where the steps were the result of breaking up the six word-of-mouth program, something which happened almost automatically [00:47:03.776 – 00:47:09.716] and must have been inspired, serves exactly the same purpose.

[00:47:09.716 – 00:47:15.516] W. could not deny he was solely responsible for creating the steps. [00:47:15.516 – 00:47:25.636] But this newly, this new inspired story redirected the credit for their invention away from him as much [00:47:25.636 – 00:47:35.816] as possible by saying he was, quote, "Simply breaking down the collective wisdom of the group at the time," and that while doing so, he had [00:47:35.816 – 00:47:40.276] to think little at all, for the words kept right on coming. [00:47:40.276 – 00:47:50.376] This often rep- this often repeated story later prom- uh, prompted ch- Sam S. to characterize the writing of the 12 steps [00:47:50.376 – 00:48:00.376] as, quote, "One of the greatest instances of direct inspiration that I know in human history." Sam's evaluation [00:48:00.376 – 00:48:03.556] was one that suited Bill W.'s purposes-

[00:48:03.984 – 00:48:04.664] Exactly. [00:48:04.664 – 00:48:08.864] The Sixth Step myth. [00:48:08.864 – 00:48:10.724] I love this. [00:48:10.724 – 00:48:20.724] One particular element in Bill's story, the details of the Six S. program supposedly being followed [00:48:20.724 – 00:48:28.284] before the 12 Steps were created, has generated considerable attention from AA members over the years. [00:48:28.284 – 00:48:38.684] Most of that interest, however, has been driven by the misconception that there actually was a definite, universally agreed upon [00:48:38.684 – 00:48:45.944] and rigorously followed program of recovery in place before W. invented the 12 Steps.

[00:48:45.944 – 00:48:56.104] This mistaken belief was directly and decisively addressed in a recent online [00:48:56.104 – 00:49:02.243] comment by the respected religious scholar and AA historian, Glenn C.. [00:49:02.243 – 00:49:12.264] There is no evidence that there was any formal set of six steps being listed and followed by people in AA [00:49:12.264 – 00:49:17.524] prior to Bill W.'s writing of the 12 Steps in early December of 1938. [00:49:17.524 – 00:49:27.744] People who like things neat and tidy with lists to memorize tend to get carried away with this idea of six steps, and start imagining [00:49:27.744 – 00:49:39.054] early AA meetings with the window shade mounted on the walls, displaying the list of the six steps, and everybody sitting around memorizing and analyzing [00:49:39.054 – 00:49:40.564] the six steps.

[00:49:40.564 – 00:49:41.784] Footnote. [00:49:41.784 – 00:49:42.644] Footnote. [00:49:42.644 – 00:49:52.644] Chestnut's mention of window shades refers to the two pull-down displays, one for the 12 Steps and the other for the 12 Traditions, that are [00:49:52.644 – 00:49:55.024] commonly seen in AA meeting rooms. [00:49:55.024 – 00:50:05.504] More than one wit has cynically commented along the lines that AA is the only major spiritual movement in history that proudly displays [00:50:05.504 – 00:50:09.144] their entire teachings onto window shades. [00:50:09.144 – 00:50:19.664] W. is surely to blame for this misunderstanding, because he mentions the six steps in such a concrete,

[00:50:19.664 – 00:50:25.084] definitive way, and with such regularity in his later writings and talks. [00:50:25.084 – 00:50:35.364] But it's important to note that while his lists create the impression of this being a specific detailed program for recovery, [00:50:35.364 – 00:50:46.184] even in his most widely quoted presentation of the alleged six steps, Bill does qualify what he is about to say by noting [00:50:46.184 – 00:50:56.604] that is just one version of what a quote, "pretty consistent procedure," close quote, that this procedure was nonetheless subject to considerable [00:50:56.604 – 00:51:00.964] variation, and they were only approximately as follows. [00:51:00.964 – 00:51:06.704] Note that considerable variation and approximately. [00:51:06.704 – 00:51:17.084] Tellingly, there is no mention of the Six S. word of mouth program in any of W.'s writings

[00:51:17.084 – 00:51:21.384] or talks until May, 1949. [00:51:21.384 – 00:51:25.944] May, 1949. [00:51:25.944 – 00:51:36.024] For those of you who need some math lessons, Bill says 10 and a half years after he used them as the foundation for [00:51:36.024 – 00:51:37.664] his creation of the steps. [00:51:37.664 – 00:51:39.844] 10 and a half years. [00:51:39.844 – 00:51:40.214] Footnote. [00:51:40.214 – 00:51:40.744] Footnote.

[00:51:40.744 – 00:51:50.774] Bill did refer to what might be considered a five step program while addressing the New York Medical S. in May of 1944, but [00:51:50.774 – 00:51:53.904] these five were his reduction of the 12 Steps. [00:51:53.904 – 00:52:04.414] He said, "Boiled down, these steps mean simply…" It wasn't the original shorter program out of which they were supposedly extrapolated. [00:52:04.414 – 00:52:13.184] See T. Talks to Medical S. by Bill W., co-founder of AA, Alcoholics Anonymous pamphlet, page 29. [00:52:13.184 – 00:52:23.244] Also published as Basic C. of Alcoholics Anonymous in the New York State J. of Medicine, volume 44, August 1944. [00:52:23.244 – 00:52:24.983] H.? [00:52:24.983 – 00:52:35.504] That month, speaking before a convention of the American P. Association in Montreal, Bill categorically stated

[00:52:35.504 – 00:52:45.504] that there had been an early Six S. program, but he did not present them as something that had evolved, or that they had had been [00:52:45.504 – 00:52:46.924] subject considerable… [00:52:46.924 – 00:52:53.884] to considerable variation over time, as he later claimed in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age. [00:52:53.884 – 00:53:04.824] Rather, in his first presentation of the Six S. formula, W. said they were exactly what Ebby T. had communicated [00:53:04.824 – 00:53:11.424] to him during their first encounter in li- in No- late November 1934. [00:53:11.424 – 00:53:13.424] Footnote. [00:53:13.424 – 00:53:23.444] Uh, contradicting the claim that Ebby created the Six S. program, W. admitted in a 1960 talk that before

[00:53:23.444 – 00:53:24.034] the 12 Steps were- [00:53:24.389 – 00:53:29.280] were written, these ideas were circulated in some six word of mouth steps. [00:53:29.280 – 00:53:33.360] I don't remember that anybody in particular formulated these. [00:53:33.360 – 00:53:43.700] That's from W.'s talk at the National C. Conference on Alcoholism in 1960, and there's a, um, S..net URL, [00:53:43.700 – 00:53:44.960] uh, reference to that. [00:53:44.960 – 00:53:49.160] While dis- I'm sorry. [00:53:49.160 – 00:53:59.180] While disagreeing with many tenants of the Oxford Group, my former schoolmate did, however, ascribe his new sobriety to certain ideas that

[00:53:59.180 – 00:54:02.510] this alcoholic and other Oxford people had given him. [00:54:02.510 – 00:54:08.580] The particular practices my friend had selected for himself were simple. [00:54:08.580 – 00:54:13.600] One, he admitted he was powerless to solve his own problem. [00:54:13.600 – 00:54:20.280] Two, he got honest with himself as never before, made an examination of his conscience. [00:54:20.280 – 00:54:25.600] Three, he made a rigorous confession of his personal defects. [00:54:25.600 – 00:54:32.460] Four, he surveyed his distorted relations with people, visiting them to make restitution. [00:54:32.460 – 00:54:42.480] Five, he resolved to devote himself to helping others in need without the usual demand for personal prestige or

[00:54:42.480 – 00:54:43.540] material gain. [00:54:43.540 – 00:54:53.940] And six, by meditation he sought God's direction for his life and help to practice these principles at all times. [00:54:53.940 – 00:55:04.590] Although a few words here are slightly different, this list corresponds closely to the more famous presentation [00:55:04.590 – 00:55:14.760] in AA Comes of Age, quoted verbatim in the italicized story above, excepting only for the substitution [00:55:14.760 – 00:55:20.100] of, quote, "meditation", close quote, for prayer in the sixth step. [00:55:20.100 – 00:55:30.160] However, it is important to note once again in this, its initial appearance, W. claims that this was the evidence of the program of [00:55:30.160 – 00:55:38.980] recovery from the very early start rather than, as repeated later, something that gradually evolved over time.

[00:55:38.980 – 00:55:47.820] The point here isn't to minimize exactly every variation of the six-step program Bill ever offered. [00:55:47.820 – 00:55:58.340] There are several and has, and there were, there are several, and he was clearly not paying much attention to the changes he was constantly [00:55:58.340 – 00:56:01.580] making, but rather- There's a footnote Oh, sorry. [00:56:01.580 – 00:56:07.500] There's not only a footnote in the sentence, it's in the middle of the whole paragraph, so we'll have, probably have to come back to this one. [00:56:07.500 – 00:56:08.200] Okay. [00:56:08.200 – 00:56:18.700] So the footnote says, "Those interested in making such comparisons can begin by checking Bill W. speaking in Atlanta, Georgia, July 14th, 1951." [00:56:18.700 – 00:56:23.980] This is on a recording acquired from DiCobi Media I. in Bellevue, Nebraska.

[00:56:23.980 – 00:56:34.100] Also, a fragment of history, Origin of the 12 Steps, that's from the Grapevine of July 1953 and reprinted in Language of the Heart, [00:56:34.100 – 00:56:35.020] page 200. [00:56:35.020 – 00:56:42.780] Also B. W. speaking to the Manhattan group in New York City, December 1955. [00:56:42.780 – 00:56:48.560] There's a, that's on a res- recoveryspeakers.com. [00:56:48.560 – 00:56:53.280] That's Bill W., 1955 Manhattan group about the early days. [00:56:53.280 – 00:57:02.340] And Bill W. speaking before the New York City M. Society on Alcoholism, April 28th, 1958. [00:57:02.340 – 00:57:12.380] That's from the pamphlet, Three T. to Medical S. by Bill W., Cal- co-founder of AA, Alcoholics Anonymous Work S. Inc., page

[00:57:12.380 – 00:57:12.920] 12. [00:57:12.920 – 00:57:15.920] That's available online at AA's website. [00:57:15.920 – 00:57:23.900] Also, the copy of Bill's April 1953 handwritten version of the original AA steps. [00:57:23.900 – 00:57:35.540] That's from hindsfoot.org/step-six, um, HTML, and aamevents1937.9. [00:57:35.540 – 00:57:44.880] These are all to cite just sixth instan- six instances where W. explicitly outlined the six-step word of mouth program. [00:57:44.880 – 00:57:55.140] Note that any comparison of these and other versions should not fail to also acknowledge the four-step program that Bill offered Paul H. [00:57:55.140 – 00:57:57.920] in 1948 in the letter quoted above.

[00:57:57.920 – 00:58:08.400] Finally, one other six-step program of note is found in Earl T.'s story, which was first written and published in 1955, [00:58:08.400 – 00:58:13.140] 18 years after he was supposedly introduced to them by Dr. [00:58:13.140 – 00:58:13.860] Bob S.. [00:58:13.860 – 00:58:24.340] It appears in the second, third, and fourth editions of the Big Book under the title, "He S. Himself S." on pages 292, 292 [00:58:24.340 – 00:58:26.540] and 263 respectively. [00:58:26.540 – 00:58:30.080] Back to H.. [00:58:30.080 – 00:58:31.500] Back to that paragraph.

[00:58:31.500 – 00:58:39.180] The point here isn't to minutely examine every variation of the six-step program Bill W. ever offered. [00:58:39.180 – 00:58:44.570] There are several, and he is clearly not paying much attention to the changes he co- was constantly ma- [00:58:44.837 – 00:58:54.868] making, but rather to demonstrate and emphasize the fact that his mention of a six-step program first saw the light of day more than a full [00:58:54.868 – 00:59:04.928] decade after the 12 steps were written, and that these lists of six steps were never presented in any kind of consistent [00:59:04.928 – 00:59:06.148] or definitive way. [00:59:06.148 – 00:59:16.308] As E. Kurtz noted, this formulation of the word of mouth program was something Bill W. later contrived for his [00:59:16.308 – 00:59:26.368] own purposes as a literary device, a storytelling convenience, and it has been recognized as such by all serious

[00:59:26.368 – 00:59:27.988] AA historians. [00:59:27.988 – 00:59:38.288] Despite W.'s 1949 claim that these six steps harken back to the very beginning of his own sobriety, [00:59:38.288 – 00:59:39.048] they did not. [00:59:39.048 – 00:59:49.728] In later versions of his story, Bill acknowledged that the program of recovery had changed considerably since Ebby V. visited him in [00:59:49.728 – 00:59:51.008] 1934. [00:59:51.008 – 01:00:01.468] It had certainly evolved to the point where there was some sort of routine approach helping people stay sober in December 1938, [01:00:01.468 – 01:00:11.288] but there is no mention of anything in the early records even remotely resembling Bill's reported six-step program.

[01:00:11.288 – 01:00:21.488] In W.'s defense, it could be claimed that the historian's maxim, quote, "An absence of evidence is not proof absence of- proof [01:00:21.488 – 01:00:24.188] of absence," might apply here. [01:00:24.188 – 01:00:34.208] But there actually is a tremendous amount of contemporary documentation showing exactly where people were doing, what people [01:00:34.208 – 01:00:44.748] were doing to get sober before Bill wrote his 12 steps, and none of it suggests anything like his elected, his alleged six-step program. [01:00:44.748 – 01:00:50.508] Members' stories reveal a procedure for recovery. [01:00:50.508 – 01:01:01.048] Tho- these solid contemporary sources, the first draft of F.'s story, Frank A.'s 1938 report, [01:01:01.048 – 01:01:11.507] and the personal histories written for the Big Book in the late 30, 1938 and early '39, provided detailed accounts of a pretty consistent procedure

[01:01:11.508 – 01:01:16.848] being followed by AA members in both Ohio and New York before the steps were written. [01:01:16.848 – 01:01:26.938] While this evidence does support a fairly consistent procedures, does report a fairly consistent set of procedures for stopping drinking, [01:01:26.938 – 01:01:33.188] they bear little resemblance to the semi-formal six-step program W. later described. [01:01:33.188 – 01:01:39.428] F.'s story, another one I love. [01:01:39.428 – 01:01:49.548] F.'s initial draft of his Big Book story entitled Me and John, uh, meaning Barleycorn, John B., [01:01:49.548 – 01:01:59.668] was written in mid '38, and it provides a brief glimpse at the steps and the program of recovery being practiced in New York City [01:01:59.668 – 01:02:03.448] when he got sober in late 1935.

[01:02:03.448 – 01:02:13.938] This initial draft, which is much shorter than the later version entitled Our S. Friend, clearly highlights the dramatic [01:02:13.938 – 01:02:20.708] evolution in the New York program between late 1935 and late 1938. [01:02:20.708 – 01:02:28.368] There is, is also, it also- We got a footnote in the middle of that sentence Oh, I'm sorry. [01:02:28.368 – 01:02:29.128] Yes, we do. [01:02:29.128 – 01:02:30.788] After friend. [01:02:30.788 – 01:02:37.408] And that coincided with a helicopter coming right over me, so, uh, that was, that was perfect timing. [01:02:37.408 – 01:02:47.648] Um, okay, so see Alcoholics Anonymous first edition, page 226 to 241, and with ongoing edits

[01:02:47.648 – 01:02:50.408] in all subsequent editions of the Big Book. [01:02:50.408 – 01:02:52.668] That's all for that one. [01:02:52.668 – 01:03:00.028] Um, I'm gonna get into the beginning of that sentence. [01:03:00.028 – 01:03:10.288] This initial draft, which is much shorter than the later version entitled Our S. Friend, clearly highlights the dramatic evolution of the New York City program between late, between [01:03:10.288 – 01:03:12.608] late 1935 and late '38. [01:03:12.608 – 01:03:22.608] It also amply illustrates the kind of changes involved in the editing of at least some of the New York personal stories as the book got closer [01:03:22.608 – 01:03:23.538] to publication.

[01:03:23.538 – 01:03:33.548] In both the first and the published version of his story, Fitz finds himself a patient at Hei- Fitz- at T. Hospital where he is [01:03:33.548 – 01:03:43.708] approached by a man who tells him that whoever, however helpless he may feel, quote, "There are men on the streets in New York today [01:03:43.708 – 01:03:53.708] who are worse than you, and they don't drink anymore." In the earliest draft- Uh, H., there's a, there's another there's another footnote in the middle of this paragraph. [01:03:53.708 – 01:03:55.478] Bill, what are you thinking? [01:03:55.478 – 01:04:04.978] Students of AA history have speculated that the man at T. Hospital who was familiar with AA work at, AA work at this early stage- [01:04:05.464 – 01:04:10.024] Just months after Bill had returned from Akron was likely Silas B.. [01:04:10.024 – 01:04:14.024] Now back to that paragraph, H..

[01:04:14.024 – 01:04:24.084] Uh, Fitz finds himself a patient at Town's Hospital where he's approached by a man who tells him that however hopeless he may feel, "There are men on the streets of New York today who are [01:04:24.084 – 01:04:34.204] worse than you, and they don't drink anymore." In the earliest draft, when M. wondered how this could be possible, the [01:04:34.204 – 01:04:39.144] man asked, "Would you be willing to try to live on a new basis? [01:04:39.144 – 01:04:49.304] To live up to the ideals by trying to be absolutely honest, absolutely pure, absolutely [01:04:49.304 – 01:04:59.404] unselfish, and absolutely loving in all your relationships with your fellow man to get rid of this drink problem?" "Of course, [01:04:59.404 – 01:05:01.884] I would," I declared without much thought. [01:05:01.884 – 01:05:09.584] "I'd do anything." "Then all your troubles are over," said the man, and he left the room.

[01:05:09.584 – 01:05:19.964] In his first draft, Fitz describes a program of recovery such as it is in this extremely abbreviated form, [01:05:19.964 – 01:05:22.864] that is pure Oxford Group. [01:05:22.864 – 01:05:32.884] Salvation from alcohol can be had by adopting the four absolutes as the guiding principles of your life, and [01:05:32.884 – 01:05:35.004] then acting accordingly. [01:05:35.004 – 01:05:45.744] This is not surprisingly given Bill's S. connection with the Oxford Group in late 1935, a connection that lasted right up until mid '37. [01:05:45.744 – 01:05:56.044] Lois W., in one of her rare departures from the stories her husband always told, acknowledges this when she claims that Bill had to write the 12 [01:05:56.044 – 01:06:05.504] steps because, quote, "The six Oxford Group principles that the fellowship we were using were not definite enough".

[01:06:05.504 – 01:06:15.684] Whatever steps there might have been, whatever steps there might have been in AA prior to mid 1937 [01:06:15.684 – 01:06:26.004] can only be described as Oxford Group steps, and this was because that formed the basis for whatever evolved after the New York Group declared [01:06:26.004 – 01:06:28.984] their independence in mid '37. [01:06:28.984 – 01:06:39.324] But by the time M.'s story was printed in the Multilith edition just a few months later, the text of his central paragraph [01:06:39.324 – 01:06:42.344] had been changed considerably. [01:06:42.344 – 01:06:52.484] Then he asked me if I believed in a power greater than myself, which I call that power, [01:06:52.484 – 01:07:00.524] whether I call that power God, Allah, Confucius, prime cause, divine mind, or any other name.

[01:07:00.524 – 01:07:10.824] I told him that I believe in electricity and other forces of nature, but as for God, if there is one, he has never [01:07:10.824 – 01:07:12.664] done anything for me. [01:07:12.664 – 01:07:14.904] Then he does me… [01:07:14.904 – 01:07:23.804] Then he asked me if I'm willing to right all the wrongs I'd ever done to anyone, no matter how wrong I thought they were. [01:07:23.804 – 01:07:33.934] Am I willing to be honest with myself about, uh, myself and tell someone about myself, and am I willing to think of other [01:07:33.934 – 01:07:40.184] people instead of myself and in, of their needs to get rid of the drink problem? [01:07:40.184 – 01:07:50.404] The original version of this encounter, which is surely how the conversation actually went, was

[01:07:50.404 – 01:07:57.124] rewritten to conform to the changes in the New York program over the intervening years. [01:07:57.124 – 01:08:07.424] Rather than being pressed to accept the four absolutes, something Ebby almost certainly recommended during his famous late November [01:08:07.424 – 01:08:11.564] visit to Bill rather than the six steps W. later claimed. [01:08:11.564 – 01:08:21.874] Ebby was now reporting that he was a- that he was asked if the, if he had any kind of belief in God, and if he would be willing to take on [01:08:21.874 – 01:08:32.184] an honest inventory, share it with another human being, make amends for past wrongs, and overall become a less self-centered, more loving, caring [01:08:32.184 – 01:08:32.924] person. [01:08:32.924 – 01:08:41.684] All of which had now been brought into line with at least five of the newly minted 12 steps.

[01:08:41.684 – 01:08:45.024] Frank A.'s story. [01:08:45.024 – 01:08:55.144] Frank A. prepared another contemporary report describing the program of recovery after his visit to Ohio in February 1938. [01:08:55.144 – 01:09:05.484] In notes on Akron, he described seven actions required of a new man adopting the Ohio system [01:09:05.484 – 01:09:07.244] for staying sober. [01:09:07.244 – 01:09:17.524] One, any alcoholic must realize he's an alcoholic, incurable from any medical viewpoint, and that he must never [01:09:17.524 – 01:09:21.344] drink again anything with alcohol in it. [01:09:21.344 – 01:09:25.564] Two, he must surrender himself absolutely

[01:09:25.792 – 01:09:30.452] to God, realizing there's, uh, for himself there is no hope. [01:09:30.452 – 01:09:40.472] Not only must he wanna stop drinking permanently, but he must remove from his life other sins such as hatred, adultery, [01:09:40.472 – 01:09:45.652] and others which frequently com- accompany alcoholism. [01:09:45.652 – 01:09:54.952] Unless he's will do this absolutely, Smith and his friend, and his re- uh, associates refuse to work with him. [01:09:54.952 – 01:10:05.692] He must have devotions every morning, a quiet time of prayer, and then some reading from the Bible or other religious literature. [01:10:05.692 – 01:10:12.412] Umu- unless this is faithfully followed, there is grave danger of backsliding. [01:10:12.412 – 01:10:16.572] He must be willing to help other alcoholics get straight out.

[01:10:16.572 – 01:10:22.672] This throws up a barrier and strengthens his own willpower and convictions. [01:10:22.672 – 01:10:32.692] Six, it's important but not vital that he must frequently, he m- must, that he meet frequently with other [01:10:32.692 – 01:10:37.552] f- reformed alcoholics who form both the social and religious comra- comradeship. [01:10:37.552 – 01:10:45.632] Seven, important but not vital, that he attends some religious service at least weekly. [01:10:45.632 – 01:10:55.792] There's something a rough, there is certainly a rough correspondence here between some of the elements of his system in the later six and 12 step [01:10:55.792 – 01:10:57.052] programs of recovery. [01:10:57.052 – 01:11:06.092] An admission of defeat, surrender to God, the need for prayer and meditation, and the requirement of working with others.

[01:11:06.092 – 01:11:16.312] But even these sounding s- similar sounding Ohio steps, one, two, four, and five above, [01:11:16.312 – 01:11:25.832] are delivered in phrases much more strident and directive than anything found in either of Bill's later formulations. [01:11:25.832 – 01:11:36.171] In addition, there are several elements here, items three, and five, and six above, that are not found in t- either [01:11:36.171 – 01:11:38.892] the six or the 12 step version. [01:11:38.892 – 01:11:47.352] Um, where did I lose my place? [01:11:47.352 – 01:11:48.792] Is this the version? [01:11:48.792 – 01:11:49.282] Is it, uh…

[01:11:49.282 – 01:11:49.491] No, no, no. [01:11:49.491 – 01:11:50.172] The version. [01:11:50.172 – 01:11:51.132] The absolute… [01:11:51.132 – 01:11:51.972] Sorry about that. [01:11:51.972 – 01:12:01.882] The absolute requirement to see sinful acts, the need for regular meetings with other alcoholics, along with the S. suggestion for weekly church attendance. [01:12:01.882 – 01:12:11.932] Should another reminder be needed, A.'s report underlies, underlines the diverging nature of the Akron and New York program's [01:12:11.932 – 01:12:22.172] significant differences that are reported to be the very essence of the Ohio program s- system just nine months before Bill W.

[01:12:22.172 – 01:12:25.052] sat down and wrote the 12 steps. [01:12:25.052 – 01:12:29.212] Members' stories, 1938 and '39. [01:12:29.212 – 01:12:39.612] The final source of contemporary evidence for the early program of recovery comes from the 30 stories written for the Big Book in late '38 [01:12:39.612 – 01:12:40.452] and '39. [01:12:40.452 – 01:12:51.072] If there actually had been, as Bill claimed, a pretty consistent procedure of six steps before December 1938, [01:12:51.072 – 01:13:01.512] it would be reasonable to expect these steps to be mentioned either in whole or in part in the stories written by sober [01:13:01.512 – 01:13:10.412] members during the six months before and the three months immediately after that December, but this is not the case.

[01:13:10.412 – 01:13:20.852] While making amends and working with others are deferred to a few times in some stories, the only steps that consistently show up throughout [01:13:20.852 – 01:13:29.992] these stories are the admission of defeat and the necessity of surrendering your life and your drinking problem to God. [01:13:29.992 – 01:13:40.052] In fact, if someone were to just read the stories in the book of the first edition of the Big Book, they would readily and logically conclude [01:13:40.052 – 01:13:50.122] that there was a decision to surrender to God which was solely responsible for saving all of these men and wom- women from their [01:13:50.122 – 01:13:52.692] former lives of self-destructive behavior. [01:13:52.692 – 01:13:56.892] But this central and necessary- Footnote F.. [01:13:56.892 – 01:13:57.312] Sorry.

[01:13:57.312 – 01:13:57.532] Footnote here. [01:13:57.532 – 01:14:07.792] W. was later forced to acknowledge this so much that the second printing of the first edition in March 1941 included a new appendix, [01:14:07.792 – 01:14:12.972] pages 399 to 400, that was later titled Spiritual E.. [01:14:12.972 – 01:14:23.572] There he noted that, quote, "Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded [01:14:23.572 – 01:14:33.572] that in order to recover, they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming God consciousness, followed at once by a vast change in feeling and [01:14:33.572 – 01:14:34.892] outlook." End quote. [01:14:34.892 – 01:14:41.492] This new appendix then, uh, went on as best it could to undo that impression.

[01:14:41.492 – 01:14:46.002] But this central and necessary st- [01:14:46.108 – 01:14:51.368] Surrender to God doesn't even make an appearance in Bill's reputed six steps. [01:14:51.368 – 01:15:01.808] Given A.'s report, reported Akron requirement that a man, quote, "Must surrender himself absolutely to God, realizing that in itself [01:15:01.808 – 01:15:09.288] there is no hope," it comes as no surprise that the Ohio stories are the most explicit on this point. [01:15:09.288 – 01:15:19.868] Of the 18 per- uh, personal, p- personal s- stories that contributed to the book, fully 16 of them candidly acknowledge [01:15:19.868 – 01:15:29.268] a belief in and dependence on God as either the sole or primary explanation of how they got sober. [01:15:29.268 – 01:15:32.778] This 16 should- Footnote.

[01:15:32.778 – 01:15:33.188] Footnote. [01:15:33.188 – 01:15:43.628] This count includes Dale T.'s story, Ace F. 7-Eleven, which was printed in the Multilith edition, but withdrawn before the publication [01:15:43.628 – 01:15:44.448] of The Big Book. [01:15:44.448 – 01:15:54.508] The two Akron stories that do not specifically mention God's role in their sobriety are Riding the Rods, pages 306 to [01:15:54.508 – 01:16:03.947] 316, by Charlie S., and Fired A., pages 325 to 331, by Wally G.. [01:16:03.947 – 01:16:14.148] The first of these emphasizes fellowship as the critical factor in his recovery, and the second only notes that the alcoholics who visited him in the hospital, [01:16:14.148 – 01:16:22.888] quote, "Imported to me the necessary knowledge and mental tools which have resulted in my complete sobriety," end quote.

[01:16:22.888 – 01:16:25.228] H.? [01:16:25.228 – 01:16:35.228] The 16 short excerpts below make that point abundantly clear, providing repeated evidence that the admission of powerlessness and [01:16:35.228 – 01:16:45.628] a surrender to God of both your drinking problem and your life are the two most important elements required of a man who really wants to stop drinking. [01:16:45.628 – 01:16:55.668] "If you think you're an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride that keeps you from accepting what [01:16:55.668 – 01:16:59.328] is then, what is in this book, I feel sorry for you. [01:16:59.328 – 01:17:06.738] Your H. Father will never let you down." That's from the Doctor's Nightmare, page 193. [01:17:06.738 – 01:17:12.828] "You've been trying ways and me- a- and they always fail," he told me.

[01:17:12.828 – 01:17:22.608] "You can't win unless you try, unless you try God's way." That day, I gave my will to God and asked to be directed. [01:17:22.608 – 01:17:27.088] That's from The European Drinker, page 214 and 215. [01:17:27.088 – 01:17:36.708] No conviction was essential to establish my status as a miserable failure at managing my own life. [01:17:36.708 – 01:17:45.228] I began to read the Bible daily and to go over some devotional exercise as a way to begin each day. [01:17:45.228 – 01:17:48.288] Gradually, I began to understand. [01:17:48.288 – 01:17:55.688] That's from Traveler, Editor, Scholar, page 263 and 264. [01:17:55.688 – 01:18:05.728] "All my life," he said, "I've been doing things of my own human will as opposed to God's will, and

[01:18:05.728 – 01:18:15.948] that the only certain way to, for me to stop drinking was to submit my will to God and let Him handle my difficulties." That's from [01:18:15.948 – 01:18:18.808] The Backslider, 270 to 271. [01:18:18.808 – 01:18:29.258] Spiritually, I have found a friend who has never let me down, is always eager to hope, um, a- [01:18:29.258 – 01:18:31.148] and eager to help. [01:18:31.148 – 01:18:38.488] I can actually take my problems to Him, and He does me, He gives me comfort, peace, and radiant happiness. [01:18:38.488 – 01:18:41.128] For all these blessings, I thank Him. [01:18:41.128 – 01:18:45.028] That's from Home B.- Master, page 281.

[01:18:45.028 – 01:18:53.128] I only know that as long as I seek God's help to the best of my ability, just so long will liquor never bother me. [01:18:53.128 – 01:18:56.328] From the Seven M. Slip, page 286. [01:18:56.328 – 01:19:06.348] They were l- living proof that the sincere attempt to fo- to follow the cardinal teachings of Jesus C. was keeping [01:19:06.348 – 01:19:07.127] them sober. [01:19:07.127 – 01:19:13.928] I acknowledge my fault to God and asked Him to his help to the course I had to follow. [01:19:13.928 – 01:19:17.208] My W. and I, page 295. [01:19:17.208 – 01:19:19.428] I learned the secret.

[01:19:19.428 – 01:19:22.628] The, they had a spiritual experience. [01:19:22.628 – 01:19:24.128] I was willing. [01:19:24.128 – 01:19:30.188] I reviewed my, my acquaintance with God and ack- acknowledged Him as a reality. [01:19:30.188 – 01:19:32.048] I found it easy. [01:19:32.048 – 01:19:36.948] I came to live and have been free now for two years. [01:19:36.948 – 01:19:40.788] I hope never to again take another drink. [01:19:40.788 – 01:19:44.418] A Ward of the Probate C., page 301.

[01:19:44.418 – 01:19:50.318] But if friends and fellowship were to disappear tomorrow, I don't think I'd be dismayed. [01:19:50.318 – 01:20:00.368] Back of all that is an, is the knowledge that I have a divine Father, that as long as I try to walk as, as [01:20:00.368 – 01:20:06.468] He has laid down for me to do throughout my life, nothing of ill can befall- [01:20:06.596 – 01:20:15.056] For me, even if I could wish it to be sober for the rest of my life, even if I can wish I can be sober the rest of my life. [01:20:15.056 – 01:20:22.875] That's from Ace F., 7/11, in the multi-th- lith edition Personal S., page 65. [01:20:22.875 – 01:20:32.316] They made it very plain that I had to me- seek God, that I had to state my case to him and ask for help. [01:20:32.316 – 01:20:39.456] Every morning I read a part of the Bible and asked God to carry me through the day safely.

[01:20:39.456 – 01:20:48.836] I'd been sober for 40 years, keeping that way by submitting my natural will to the higher power, and this is all there is to it. [01:20:48.836 – 01:20:53.416] The Salesman, page 230- 322 to 323. [01:20:53.416 – 01:20:56.576] And this, and it was so simple. [01:20:56.576 – 01:21:06.636] The sum and substance of it seemed to be if I could turn to God, it was very probable that he would- could do a better job with [01:21:06.636 – 01:21:08.476] my life than I had. [01:21:08.476 – 01:21:11.735] That's from The Fearful One, page 334. [01:21:11.735 – 01:21:18.056] Are you right with the Father who come, who knows you- your needs before you ask?

[01:21:18.056 – 01:21:24.755] If so, your help comes from an ever-present and all-powerful Father. [01:21:24.755 – 01:21:29.676] That's from f- Ga- A Truth F. Me, page 338. [01:21:29.676 – 01:21:39.776] I felt that the combined efforts of these Christian gentlemen made it possible for me to have a vital spiritual [01:21:39.776 – 01:21:40.596] experience. [01:21:40.596 – 01:21:43.936] Now that's from A Close S., page 349. [01:21:43.936 – 01:21:50.176] Why not avail myself of all this is wise, ever-present help? [01:21:50.176 – 01:21:52.216] This I did.

[01:21:52.216 – 01:22:02.676] I asked for, accept, and acknowledge this help and know that so long as I do, I shall never take a drink, and what was more important [01:22:02.676 – 01:22:08.356] though, impossible without the first, all other phases of my life have been helped. [01:22:08.356 – 01:22:17.116] There is, it seems to me, four steps to be taken by anyone who is not, who is a victim of alcoholism. [01:22:17.116 – 01:22:21.516] First, have a sincere desire to quit. [01:22:21.516 – 01:22:25.376] Two, admit you can't. [01:22:25.376 – 01:22:28.126] This is hardest. [01:22:28.126 – 01:22:35.236] Three, ask for his ever-present help, and four, accept and, and ack- acknowledge his help.

[01:22:35.236 – 01:22:38.816] That's from The Car Smasher, page 367. [01:22:38.816 – 01:22:44.736] Since giving my husband's problems to God, I have found peace and happiness. [01:22:44.736 – 01:22:49.876] My husband and I now talk over our problems and trust in a divine power. [01:22:49.876 – 01:22:52.916] We have now started to live. [01:22:52.916 – 01:22:57.276] When we were, when we live with God, where we want… [01:22:57.276 – 01:23:00.976] When we live with God, we want for nothing. [01:23:00.976 – 01:23:04.006] An A.'s Wife, page 379.

[01:23:04.006 – 01:23:10.336] A religious awakening was conveyed to me through some unseen force. [01:23:10.336 – 01:23:20.346] I have found the new life, and as long as I do the few things that God prepares, requires of me to do, I never will take another [01:23:20.346 – 01:23:20.816] drink. [01:23:20.816 – 01:23:24.016] That's from The Rolling Stone, page 390. [01:23:24.016 – 01:23:35.176] The New Yorkers, despite their voi- their vaunted reputation for greater skepticism, were only less, slightly [01:23:35.176 – 01:23:42.295] less demonstrative in their stories about the centrality of God's role in their remarkable recoveries. [01:23:42.295 – 01:23:51.256] In addition to Bill's own story, 10 of the other 12 East stories made this claim explicitly.

[01:23:51.256 – 01:23:52.406] Footnote. [01:23:52.406 – 01:23:53.876] He wrote note. [01:23:53.876 – 01:23:54.855] Yep, footnote. [01:23:54.855 – 01:24:05.056] The two New York stories that did not reference God in any way were A Different S., pages 252 to 253 by Harry [01:24:05.056 – 01:24:11.276] B., and Hindsight on pages 370 to 7- 374 by Myron W.. [01:24:11.276 – 01:24:20.016] The first of these does not even fill two pages, and at less than 400 words is the shortest story in the first edition of the book. [01:24:20.016 – 01:24:25.836] Myron's story only says, "What I heard was hard to believe, but I wanted to believe it.

[01:24:25.836 – 01:24:29.276] And what's more, I wanted to try it and see if it wouldn't work for me. [01:24:29.276 – 01:24:39.276] It worked, and it's still working." Um, he raised my hopes so high it looked as though he had something. [01:24:39.276 – 01:24:40.436] I didn't know. [01:24:40.436 – 01:24:50.456] I guess I was so sold that I expected him to spring some kind of a pill, and I asked him desperately what it was, and he said, "God," [01:24:50.456 – 01:24:52.316] and I laughed. [01:24:52.316 – 01:24:55.236] Six pages later, "Brr. [01:24:55.236 – 01:24:57.976] This floor is cold on my knees.

[01:24:57.976 – 01:25:00.596] Why are the tears running down my cheeks? [01:25:00.596 – 01:25:08.776] God have mercy on my soul." From The Unbeliever, page 199 and 205. [01:25:08.776 – 01:25:11.296] Are you willing to give up? [01:25:11.296 – 01:25:16.576] Are you willing to say there is a God all mix… [01:25:16.576 – 01:25:19.456] Here is, here it is, God, all mixed up. [01:25:19.456 – 01:25:22.156] I don't know how to unmix it. [01:25:22.156 – 01:25:23.976] I leave it to you.

[01:25:23.976 – 01:25:26.866] A Feminine F.- Victory, page two two- [01:25:26.992 – 01:25:27.612] 21. [01:25:27.612 – 01:25:34.432] "The thing I do is to say, 'God, here I am, and here are all my troubles. [01:25:34.432 – 01:25:38.412] I've made a mess of things and cannot do anything about it. [01:25:38.412 – 01:25:48.852] You take me and all my troubles and do anything you want with me.'" From Our Southern F., 19th page 237. [01:25:48.852 – 01:25:58.852] "It had never occurred to me that He in His infinite wisdom knew much better than I should have [01:25:58.852 – 01:26:09.592] and be and do, and that if I simply turned the decision over to Him, I would be led along the right path." A Businessman's Recovery, page 249.

[01:26:09.592 – 01:26:19.732] "From the day I gave and still give, and always will, time every day to read the Word of God and let Him [01:26:19.732 – 01:26:21.872] do all the caring. [01:26:21.872 – 01:26:30.092] Who am I to try to run myself or anything else?" Smile W. Me, page 34- 47. [01:26:30.092 – 01:26:38.892] "A belief in the basic spirituality of life is shown, and with it belief as, as a supreme and guiding power for good. [01:26:38.892 – 01:26:46.352] The first step I took when I admitted to myself for the first time that all my previous thinking might be wrong. [01:26:46.352 – 01:26:56.072] The second step came when I first consciously wished to believe." That's from The Educated Agnostic, page 355. [01:26:56.072 – 01:27:06.332] "Then the next day a fine fellow came, and in a haltingly but different effective way told me how he had placed

[01:27:06.332 – 01:27:09.872] himself in God's hands in keeping. [01:27:09.872 – 01:27:20.712] Almost before I knew it, I was asking God to clean me up." Another P. Story, page 361. [01:27:20.712 – 01:27:30.832] "I should not be surprised to find myself coming to the astonishing conclusion that God, whoever or whatever He may be, is imminently more [01:27:30.832 – 01:27:33.362] capable of running this universe than I am. [01:27:33.362 – 01:27:39.492] At least I believe I'm on my way." On H. Way, page 377. [01:27:39.492 – 01:27:47.792] "These men who were thinking straight had given themselves, their minds, over to a higher power for direction. [01:27:47.792 – 01:27:55.592] The day I made my first efforts in this direction, an entirely new world opened up for me.

[01:27:55.592 – 01:28:05.712] Drinking as a vicious habit was washed away completely out of my consciousness." From An A.'s Concept, page 385. [01:28:05.712 – 01:28:16.252] "I knew that the only way to combat to cri- uh, only way to combat this course was to ask the help of that greater power, [01:28:16.252 – 01:28:16.692] God. [01:28:16.692 – 01:28:24.372] God is my only chance." From The Lone E., page 395 footnote. [01:28:24.372 – 01:28:34.972] This story of the California man, Pat C., who got sober after reading a copy of the multilithe printing, was actually written by Ruth H. [01:28:34.972 – 01:28:40.672] based on correspondence sent to the Alcoholic F. by the newly sober Cooper and his mother. [01:28:40.672 – 01:28:50.752] The New Yorkers were so excited someone had stopped drinking just by reading their book, that they famously took up a collection for a bus ticket so that Cooper could

[01:28:50.752 – 01:28:51.292] come east. [01:28:51.292 – 01:29:00.312] But when the bus arrived in New York, Pat didn't get off, and he was finally found curled up under the backseat sleeping off a hangover. [01:29:00.312 – 01:29:06.652] His story was withdrawn when the second printing of the book was published in March 1980, 1941. [01:29:06.652 – 01:29:10.852] That's from B.'s speech at Hope M., page 17. [01:29:10.852 – 01:29:13.192] Dodd the Author is page 51. [01:29:13.192 – 01:29:17.992] A loose and simple path to sobriety. [01:29:17.992 – 01:29:28.112] This constant and uniform refrain of asking for God's help as the primary solution to the alcohol problem, and the lack of any other common

[01:29:28.112 – 01:29:38.112] specific steps to be taken to achieve sobriety, is overwhelming con- contemporary evidence that there was no agreed upon and accepted [01:29:38.112 – 01:29:41.492] six step program before December 1938. [01:29:41.492 – 01:29:51.532] Instead, all these reports show how members followed a very loose and simple path to recover to sobriety, one that [01:29:51.532 – 01:29:56.272] might be most easily summarized in three basic steps. [01:29:56.272 – 01:29:58.872] One, admit you're licked. [01:29:58.872 – 01:30:02.092] Two, surrender your life to God. [01:30:02.092 – 01:30:05.772] Three, act accordingly.

[01:30:05.772 – 01:30:10.012] Uh, meaning pray, meditate, help others. [01:30:10.012 – 01:30:12.592] Footnote. [01:30:12.592 – 01:30:13.682] Footnote. [01:30:13.682 – 01:30:20.272] Jim B. confirmed this simple three-step program in his 1947 talk at Hope M.. [01:30:20.272 – 01:30:27.032] Quote, "First of all, you had to place your power in God completely right now and not tomorrow morning. [01:30:27.032 – 01:30:28.332] That was number one. [01:30:28.332 – 01:30:31.092] So the first step was believing in God.

[01:30:31.092 – 01:30:34.932] The second step was admitting that you had trouble with alcohol. [01:30:34.932 – 01:30:37.592] The third step was catharsis. [01:30:37.592 – 01:30:39.082] It was very broad." Mm-hmm. [01:30:39.082 – 01:30:43.022] That's from B.'s speech at Hope M., page 13. [01:30:43.022 – 01:30:46.822] The Webster's definition of catharsis is [01:30:47.500 – 01:30:55.520] A purification of or purgation of emotions that brings about spiritual renewal or release from tension. [01:30:55.520 – 01:31:06.460] H. Given this overwhelming evidence regarding the essence of the program of recovery as it was being practiced up to late 1938,

[01:31:06.460 – 01:31:16.500] Bill W. could not have been more correct when he said a definite statement of concrete principles absolutely [01:31:16.500 – 01:31:28.260] had to be formulated and included in the book, something that the not rationalizing alcoholic just couldn't wiggle out of, no [01:31:28.260 – 01:31:30.020] matter how hard he tried. [01:31:30.020 – 01:31:37.600] This was way too loose and f- subject to far too many interpretations to ever be effective. [01:31:37.600 – 01:31:41.960] It could only be called a program of action. [01:31:41.960 – 01:31:46.240] By this time, the point should be abundantly clear. [01:31:46.240 – 01:31:56.280] Over than the re- other than the references scattered throughout Bill's story, the reputed six steps received no significant mention

[01:31:56.280 – 01:32:00.200] in any of the other 30 stories written for the Big Book. [01:32:00.200 – 01:32:10.240] This universal silence is surely an absence of evidence, but it is so uniform and so overwhelming [01:32:10.240 – 01:32:20.300] that Bill's claim of a more emphasized six-step word-of-mouth program revealed to be a fiction, one he created to [01:32:20.300 – 01:32:28.980] avoid acknowledging that the 12 steps were based almost exclusively on his own experience. [01:32:28.980 – 01:32:31.840] An inspired event. [01:32:31.840 – 01:32:42.020] Despite all these controversies and quibbles, there is no denying that Bill W. created something s- important, unique, [01:32:42.020 – 01:32:48.399] and profound in early December 1938.

[01:32:48.399 – 01:32:56.160] His 12 steps had not only helped millions of people stop drinking since that time, there had also been… [01:32:56.160 – 01:33:04.720] they had also served as the f- foundational principles for scores of other life-saving recovery programs worldwide. [01:33:04.720 – 01:33:14.840] Whatever the circumstances and whatever the source, Bill W.'s 12 steps are revolutionary in their simplicity, their [01:33:14.840 – 01:33:18.020] clarity, and their effectiveness. [01:33:18.020 – 01:33:28.300] Given the confusing and contradictory amounts under which he labored, it was an accomplishment so amazing that many people [01:33:28.300 – 01:33:36.800] have agreed with W.'s later observation that the creation of the 12 steps was a truly inspired event. [01:33:36.800 – 01:33:46.880] Others claim Bill's formulation of this intensely spiritual set of suggestions as a program of recovery was

[01:33:46.880 – 01:33:56.920] nothing short of miraculous, and needed for a man who was still several weeks short of celebrating his 40, his fourth year [01:33:56.920 – 01:34:00.320] of sobriety, it was nothing less than a miracle. [01:34:00.320 – 01:34:03.900] The original 12 steps. [01:34:03.900 – 01:34:10.280] Bill's first draft has, of the steps, has been lost. [01:34:10.280 – 01:34:20.600] So any attempt to reconstruct how they might have been read in the original unedited form involves [01:34:20.600 – 01:34:22.760] a fair amount of speculation. [01:34:22.760 – 01:34:25.060] Still, here…

[01:34:25.060 – 01:34:35.120] Still, if we, if we presume that W.'s first attempt was, as he said, a specific direction, a definite [01:34:35.120 – 01:34:45.480] statement of concrete principles that these drunks just couldn't wiggle out of, then it is, uh, logical to presume that they would have been co- couched [01:34:45.480 – 01:34:55.640] in some very, excuse me, couched in some very effective language, the same kind of language found throughout the multilitth printing of the book [01:34:55.640 – 01:34:59.400] just pu- pub- published just two and a half months later. [01:34:59.400 – 01:35:09.800] Assuming that change in voice and tone, it is possible to start with 12 steps as they appear in the multilitth printing [01:35:09.800 – 01:35:18.660] and reverse engineer them by deleting the few changes Bill would later said, would later made to his first draft. [01:35:18.660 – 01:35:28.680] Such a change in voice, coupled with the delete and restore procedure, produces a version of the original 12 steps that

[01:35:28.680 – 01:35:32.780] would likely read something very close to this. [01:35:32.780 – 01:35:39.600] One, admit you're powerless over alcohol, that your life has become unmanageable. [01:35:39.600 – 01:35:44.480] Two, come to believe that God could restore you to sanity. [01:35:44.480 – 01:35:52.140] Three, surrender your will and your life over to the care and direction of God. [01:35:52.140 – 01:35:55.410] Make a searching and furious mor- Footnote. [01:35:55.410 – 01:35:58.240] There's a footnote on three I'm sorry, there's a footnote. [01:35:58.240 – 01:35:59.940] Footnote.

[01:35:59.940 – 01:36:07.730] Ernest, Ernest K. speculates that this step originally said, "Made a decision to surrender" [01:36:07.856 – 01:36:12.656] "Under our will in our lives." That's from Not G., page 331, note four. [01:36:12.656 – 01:36:22.836] And it might have been as simply phrased as, "Surrendered our will and our lives to the care and direction of God." That's it [01:36:22.836 – 01:36:28.456] Uh, make a s- four, make a searching and fearless moral inventory of yourself. [01:36:28.456 – 01:36:34.856] Five, admit to God, to yourself, and to another human being the exact nature of your wrongs. [01:36:34.856 – 01:36:40.496] Six, be entirely ready for God to remove all your defects of character. [01:36:40.496 – 01:36:50.136] Seven, humbly on your knees ask God to remove your shortcomings, holding nothing back.

[01:36:50.136 – 01:36:56.256] Eight, make a list of all persons who you had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. [01:36:56.256 – 01:37:05.596] Nine, made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. [01:37:05.596 – 01:37:12.316] 10, continue to take personal inventory, and when you are wrong, promptly admit it. [01:37:12.316 – 01:37:22.316] 11, seek through prayer and meditation to improve your cons- your contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for [01:37:22.316 – 01:37:24.976] you and the power to carry that out. [01:37:24.976 – 01:37:35.316] And 12, having had a spiritual awake- experience as a result of this course of action, try to carry this message to others, [01:37:35.316 – 01:37:39.956] especially alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all your affairs.

[01:37:39.956 – 01:37:50.036] With this new radical outline in hand, Bill now had to sell it to the rest of the AA members, [01:37:50.036 – 01:38:00.116] not to just those in New York who were so deeply divided over the religion versus psychology controversy, but [01:38:00.116 – 01:38:07.376] also to the profoundly religious members of the Oxford Group's alcoholic squad in Akron. [01:38:07.376 – 01:38:12.616] Oh, well done, H. and Riley. [01:38:12.616 – 01:38:13.476] Thank you both. [01:38:13.476 – 01:38:15.936] Please unmute if you'd like to acknowledge both readers. [01:38:15.936 – 01:38:16.356] Thank you.

[01:38:16.356 – 01:38:17.216] Thank you. [01:38:17.216 – 01:38:17.716] Thank you. [01:38:17.716 – 01:38:17.746] Wow. [01:38:17.746 – 01:38:18.456] Great job. [01:38:18.456 – 01:38:18.956] Thank you. [01:38:18.956 – 01:38:19.646] Thank you very much. [01:38:19.646 – 01:38:22.316] Wow.

[01:38:22.316 – 01:38:23.856] Thank you. [01:38:23.856 – 01:38:24.186] Wonderful. [01:38:24.186 – 01:38:24.187] Well done. [01:38:24.187 – 01:38:24.188] Thank you, H.. [01:38:24.188 – 01:38:24.189] Thank you. [01:38:24.189 – 01:38:24.736] Thank you. [01:38:24.736 – 01:38:25.206] Thank you, H..

[01:38:25.206 – 01:38:25.806] Thanks, guys. [01:38:25.806 – 01:38:26.136] Thanks, Riley. [01:38:26.136 – 01:38:27.906] Thank you, H. and Riley. [01:38:27.906 – 01:38:29.246] You don't make it easy. [01:38:29.246 – 01:38:30.156] Good job, guys. [01:38:30.156 – 01:38:30.476] Mm-hmm. [01:38:30.476 – 01:38:32.476] Bill, you do- Yeah …

[01:38:32.476 – 01:38:33.736] not make this easy. [01:38:33.736 – 01:38:36.866] Now, just before we go into the Q&A, quickly I just want to mention this to you now. [01:38:36.866 – 01:38:42.296] H. does a Big Book, a wonderful, should I say, a wonderful Big Book, uh, meeting every week. [01:38:42.296 – 01:38:45.296] I just want to get that up on the screen, if I may. [01:38:45.296 – 01:38:47.295] Put that up on the screen, H.. [01:38:47.295 – 01:38:50.836] H., you still do that, don't you, actually? [01:38:50.836 – 01:38:51.736] H. has gone off my screen.

[01:38:51.736 – 01:38:52.676] I'll put it up in one second. [01:38:52.676 – 01:38:53.426] I'll do it. [01:38:53.426 – 01:38:53.427] I'll do it. [01:38:53.427 – 01:38:55.836] Jim, do you just want to tell people what's gonna happen, please? [01:38:55.836 – 01:38:56.776] Quickly, thank you. [01:38:56.776 – 01:38:57.556] Yeah. [01:38:57.556 – 01:39:02.736] After, uh, af- David's gonna have some flyers, and then we're gonna go into the Q&A.

[01:39:02.736 – 01:39:05.256] This is a question and answer. [01:39:05.256 – 01:39:06.456] This is not for comments. [01:39:06.456 – 01:39:08.216] It's not for discussion. [01:39:08.216 – 01:39:10.516] It's a que- it's to ask questions of the author. [01:39:10.516 – 01:39:16.516] So let's make the best use of the time that he has, uh, here with us- Mm-hmm … [01:39:16.516 – 01:39:18.356] uh, before he has to leave. [01:39:18.356 – 01:39:20.206] David, yes, flyers.

[01:39:20.206 – 01:39:20.656] Thank you. [01:39:20.656 – 01:39:21.516] Thank you, Jim. [01:39:21.516 – 01:39:21.646] There we go. [01:39:21.646 – 01:39:23.036] I just wanted to mention this for H.. [01:39:23.036 – 01:39:24.996] It's all really, uh, I, I appreciate the time. [01:39:24.996 – 01:39:29.636] H. does a Big Book Comes to Life, uh, step study workshop, and it's fantastic. [01:39:29.636 – 01:39:31.385] I've been through it a couple of times.

[01:39:31.385 – 01:39:34.716] This is his Facebook page if you'd like to get involved with that. [01:39:34.716 – 01:39:37.896] H., do you quickly just want to say that, and, and we move on? [01:39:37.896 – 01:39:39.955] Yeah, I, I put the information in the chat. [01:39:39.955 – 01:39:41.406] If you'd like to join us- Thank you … [01:39:41.406 – 01:39:44.836] the meeting is at Sunday at 5:00 Eastern T.. [01:39:44.836 – 01:39:49.336] Unfortunately, that's, what, 10:00, uh, in Great B.. [01:39:49.336 – 01:39:59.456] Uh, since the group has grown so large, we only have a review on Sunday, and on Monday at the same time, 5:00, we have a discussion

[01:39:59.456 – 01:40:04.616] of the stuff we covered because it's much too large a group on Sunday to do that. [01:40:04.616 – 01:40:07.316] So the details are in the chat. [01:40:07.316 – 01:40:17.336] If you'd like to become part of it, send your email address to me right here at thebigbookstudy@aol.com and I'll get you on the list so you [01:40:17.336 – 01:40:20.736] can get the handout materials, the invitations, and so on. [01:40:20.736 – 01:40:23.656] We do a lot of handout materials. [01:40:23.656 – 01:40:27.596] I- In fact, we ga- we wa- gave away half of this goddamn book last week. [01:40:27.596 – 01:40:28.216] Thank you.

[01:40:28.216 – 01:40:28.996] Thank you. [01:40:28.996 – 01:40:31.316] Do make a lot of references to Bill S.'s book as well. [01:40:31.316 – 01:40:32.416] Thank you, H.. [01:40:32.416 – 01:40:33.796] We're gonna go straight over to… [01:40:33.796 – 01:40:36.406] I must love and leave you at about 25 past, 9:20. [01:40:36.406 – 01:40:38.656] I'm looking forward to what Bill S. has to say. [01:40:38.656 – 01:40:40.396] Over to you, Jim M..

[01:40:40.396 – 01:40:40.996] Thank you. [01:40:40.996 – 01:40:41.876] Thank you, David. [01:40:41.876 – 01:40:48.156] Now we're gonna go to the Q&A, but first, uh, a, uh, a word from our sponsor. [01:40:48.156 – 01:40:49.356] Actually, our author. [01:40:49.356 – 01:40:51.436] Bill, do you have some comments? [01:40:51.436 – 01:40:53.016] Thank, thank you, Jim. [01:40:53.016 – 01:41:00.536] Yeah, I, I mean, a, a couple of things I just want to say, and one of the things is that this was the absolute toughest chapter I had to read in the entire, entire book.

[01:41:00.536 – 01:41:08.016] Uh, writing this thing just killed me because, uh, I, I just couldn't make any sense out of what, what I had, you know? [01:41:08.016 – 01:41:15.596] This, this fact that, and when, when I tracked down the fact that, that the first time Bill tells his six step story, it's over 10 years after he supposedly writes a step. [01:41:15.596 – 01:41:18.056] It just, I couldn't make any sense out of it. [01:41:18.056 – 01:41:25.736] Uh, also, I, I know it get, it can get boring reading and writing all those different excerpts from the book, but I just didn't know how else to do that, you know? [01:41:25.736 – 01:41:28.026] And I heard a guy say one time years and years ago that when y- [01:41:28.284 – 01:41:29.544] Listen to a guy tell his story. [01:41:29.544 – 01:41:33.084] What you wanna listen for is that spot where something happens.

[01:41:33.084 – 01:41:33.644] Mm-hmm. [01:41:33.644 – 01:41:38.204] 'Cause all of us have this drunk-a-long thing, and then something happens, and we stop drinking, you know? [01:41:38.204 – 01:41:38.614] Mm-hmm. [01:41:38.614 – 01:41:42.144] So I went through those stories and found the something happens, and those are those quotes. [01:41:42.144 – 01:41:47.424] And I, I just, I kept thinking about taking those things out because it just seemed taking up so much space. [01:41:47.424 – 01:41:52.784] But I couldn't expect people to, uh, take my word for it and say, "Just go read the stories," because… [01:41:52.784 – 01:41:53.864] So I, so I did that.

[01:41:53.864 – 01:41:54.184] Mm-hmm. [01:41:54.184 – 01:41:57.824] The, the other thing was I asked David if I could, if I could share screen here. [01:41:57.824 – 01:42:01.684] And let me just try one thing just for a second here, if I can do this. [01:42:01.684 – 01:42:03.834] Um, yeah. [01:42:03.834 – 01:42:08.584] So here's, here's a comparison of the six and 12 step program I put together one time. [01:42:08.584 – 01:42:16.344] So the six steps are on top, and they blue heighted, blue high- the blue highlighted stuff above does not appear in the s- in the 12 steps below. [01:42:16.344 – 01:42:21.324] So there's no "we" in the 12 steps, and there's no mention of sin in the 12 steps.

[01:42:21.324 – 01:42:27.784] Uh, and if you look at the stuff below, the yellow highlighted stuff does not appear in the six steps. [01:42:27.784 – 01:42:32.844] Almost, almost the entire verbiage of the 12 steps does not appear in those six steps. [01:42:32.844 – 01:42:42.904] So W. added, if in fact this story were true, he would've taken those six steps and added just a ton of brand-new material, a ton of brand-new [01:42:42.904 – 01:42:43.404] material. [01:42:43.404 – 01:42:47.004] So anyhow, just I always like that document. [01:42:47.004 – 01:42:50.164] It's just, uh, just one of those things that kind of… [01:42:50.164 – 01:42:55.214] I- I couldn't just put it into the book, 'cause they, they wouldn't have put it, printed it in color, and I think you gotta have it in color to do that.

[01:42:55.214 – 01:42:58.624] So anyhow, that's, uh, that's all I got at the moment. [01:42:58.624 – 01:43:00.054] Oh, and I'm sorry, Riley. [01:43:00.054 – 01:43:08.284] I had no idea that we were gonna someday read this thing and somebody was gonna actually read the footnotes, so I, I- My apologies. [01:43:08.284 – 01:43:09.984] That's brilliant. [01:43:09.984 – 01:43:10.584] Thank you. [01:43:10.584 – 01:43:11.704] Thank you very much, Bill. [01:43:11.704 – 01:43:13.784] We're gonna go into the Q&A.

[01:43:13.784 – 01:43:17.264] Remember, questions, not discussions, not comments. [01:43:17.264 – 01:43:20.704] And, uh, we have a lot of people, so please try and be brief. [01:43:20.704 – 01:43:22.804] Uh, we'll start off with Dennis. [01:43:22.804 – 01:43:24.544] What is your, uh, question, Dennis? [01:43:24.544 – 01:43:25.884] Hi, Bill. [01:43:25.884 – 01:43:27.384] I'm V- thanks for the reading. [01:43:27.384 – 01:43:29.424] I'm Dennis, and I'm an alcoholic.

[01:43:29.424 – 01:43:39.724] Number one, reading this, I'm thinking Bill W., when he was getting older, was thinking that if he died, the program would die, and he was putting it off to other people [01:43:39.724 – 01:43:44.064] that, uh, so the program would live on. [01:43:44.064 – 01:43:48.824] And then two, how did you, how did you ever start this project, Bill? [01:43:48.824 – 01:43:50.684] That's all. [01:43:50.684 – 01:43:59.864] Well, I, uh, Dennis, I agree that, that Bill was spreading around the responsibility so that it, so that it was more of a group project and it just didn't depend on one man alone. [01:43:59.864 – 01:44:03.244] And I, I, um, I say that over and over again in the book. [01:44:03.244 – 01:44:10.404] He's always deflecting attention from himself, always deflect- he's always giving credit to other people for things that he was just solely responsible for.

[01:44:10.404 – 01:44:18.743] Anyhow, I, I started this because I bought Jim B.'s, the New York atheist, I bought his, uh, his Multilith copy at a, at an auction. [01:44:18.743 – 01:44:23.444] And I needed to know, as a rare book dealer, how many copies of that were printed. [01:44:23.444 – 01:44:26.884] I knew that it had been $165 spent on the Multilith printing. [01:44:26.884 – 01:44:35.234] And I finally got permission to go to the archive to, I wanted to find the invoice to find out if there was 100, Jimmy implies that, 200, somebody says that. [01:44:35.234 – 01:44:36.524] Frank A. says 300. [01:44:36.524 – 01:44:38.104] Bill always said 400 copies. [01:44:38.104 – 01:44:44.664] But the, the rarity of a book would, uh, would change radically if there was 100 or 400 copies originally printed.

[01:44:44.664 – 01:44:47.024] So I went down there looking for that invoice. [01:44:47.024 – 01:44:48.064] Never found the invoice. [01:44:48.064 – 01:44:51.824] It it- it's not in, not in New York or in Stepping S.. [01:44:51.824 – 01:44:57.904] But I just kept finding all this stuff that it was like, "Hey, that's not the stories I've been told for over 30 years. [01:44:57.904 – 01:45:03.344] Hey, that's not the stories I've been told for over 30 years." And, uh, and I'm glad to see… [01:45:03.344 – 01:45:13.364] By the way, I just have to say a shout-out here that Randy's here, because we read a couple of real bad errors in my book that, that Randy caught when we went through this book the last time, and are being [01:45:13.364 – 01:45:14.664] corrected in the next printing.

[01:45:14.664 – 01:45:16.504] So R., shout-out to you, kid. [01:45:16.504 – 01:45:18.504] You are just a killer reader of the book. [01:45:18.504 – 01:45:18.964] Thank you. [01:45:18.964 – 01:45:19.833] Well- Thank you … [01:45:19.833 – 01:45:26.144] like the 12 steps put my life in order, you're gonna go down as the man who did the history of AA. [01:45:26.144 – 01:45:27.684] Thank you, Dennis. [01:45:27.684 – 01:45:29.344] Marsha, do, uh…

[01:45:29.344 – 01:45:30.384] What is your question? [01:45:30.384 – 01:45:33.624] Yes. [01:45:33.624 – 01:45:33.984] Hi. [01:45:33.984 – 01:45:37.744] Uh, H., that was a great reading of a long, long chapter. [01:45:37.744 – 01:45:38.924] Great reading. [01:45:38.924 – 01:45:48.984] Um, so is a more accurate formulation of the remark, "These are the steps we [01:45:48.984 – 01:45:58.984] took," which I s- suggested as a program of recovery, is it really more accurate that it would be, "These are the

[01:45:58.984 – 01:46:04.924] steps that I took," Bill W., which I suggested as a program of recovery? [01:46:04.924 – 01:46:09.284] I think if, if Bill were writing the strict truth, that's exactly what it would've been. [01:46:09.284 – 01:46:10.564] But, but he couldn't do that. [01:46:10.564 – 01:46:15.664] He was, you know, he's a, I mean, among many, many, many other things, the guy's a salesman here. [01:46:15.664 – 01:46:21.574] And, and you know, saying to people who open the book to say, "Now this is what I did, and if you do it, it'll be a cool thing. [01:46:21.574 – 01:46:27.644] It'll work for you," it's much more effective to say, "There's 100 of us, and this is what 100 of us did. [01:46:27.644 – 01:46:30.664] And it worked for us, so, you know, pick up your bed and walk.

[01:46:30.664 – 01:46:34.144] Let's do this deal here, friend." You know, it just, it's a better deal. [01:46:34.144 – 01:46:37.204] It's also, you know, that whole BW movement thing. [01:46:37.204 – 01:46:41.584] You know, he was really, really, you know, he, he couldn't be writing it as if it was just him. [01:46:41.584 – 01:46:42.964] It would've, it would've been… [01:46:42.964 – 01:46:47.824] It, it just, I mean, he had enough problem with the people in Akron as it was, for God's sakes. [01:46:47.824 – 01:46:48.594] You know, if, if, if- [01:46:48.709 – 01:46:50.460] had done that, it just would've been a disaster.

[01:46:50.460 – 01:46:54.820] And also, I think P. and other people would've given him grief in New York. [01:46:54.820 – 01:46:59.440] So yes, I think it would've been much more accurate if he had written it that way, but there are many, many reasons why he didn't. [01:46:59.440 – 01:47:00.240] Thank you, Bill. [01:47:00.240 – 01:47:08.180] Is there, is there no, is there no means however that it was a summary of experience thus far in the group? [01:47:08.180 – 01:47:12.820] He always called it the book of experience in some of his writings. [01:47:12.820 – 01:47:13.020] Yeah. [01:47:13.020 – 01:47:14.079] That, that, that's what he was doing.

[01:47:14.079 – 01:47:16.140] Now, W. was all about experience. [01:47:16.140 – 01:47:17.860] I mean, he was a William J. guy, you know? [01:47:17.860 – 01:47:19.170] It was like, "We don't care what it is. [01:47:19.170 – 01:47:20.790] If it works for you, it works." Yeah. [01:47:20.790 – 01:47:22.180] And we're still that way in AA. [01:47:22.180 – 01:47:28.080] You know, if you got some whack job thing going for you and it's keeping you from picking up the first drink, I'm all for it. [01:47:28.080 – 01:47:30.839] Hey, thank you, Bill.

[01:47:30.839 – 01:47:31.380] Thank you. [01:47:31.380 – 01:47:33.600] And- Marsha T. you, Marsha. [01:47:33.600 – 01:47:35.800] And we'll go on to Phil. [01:47:35.800 – 01:47:38.420] Thanks, lot. [01:47:38.420 – 01:47:44.420] Was the Hennessy communication known to historians, or was it a brilliant find by you? [01:47:44.420 – 01:47:47.040] I'm, I'm sorry, one more time, Phil. [01:47:47.040 – 01:47:49.960] The Hennessy communication, the letter- Oh, yeah, yeah.

[01:47:49.960 – 01:47:54.400] No, I've, I don't know anybody who's ever read that letter before or certainly paid any attention to it. [01:47:54.400 – 01:47:59.620] It was one of the things that, that Michelle hand- Michelle's the, the, the archivist, the, the big archivist. [01:47:59.620 – 01:48:01.600] You know, she's in charge of the archives office down there. [01:48:01.600 – 01:48:06.220] She handed me that folder at one point, and I was just like, "You gotta be kidding me. [01:48:06.220 – 01:48:09.220] You gotta be kidding me." That was just… [01:48:09.220 – 01:48:13.340] And you know, I was confused enough without that letter. [01:48:13.340 – 01:48:17.420] I mean, it was, it w- I was struggling with this whole six step thing, you know?

[01:48:17.420 – 01:48:22.500] Um, J- Jay just called me in the middle of this thing, and I told him I'd call him back. [01:48:22.500 – 01:48:22.990] Jay S.. [01:48:22.990 – 01:48:33.200] And, uh, and I was, I, I mean, I was calling, when I was trying to figure out how to make sense out of all this material that I had that was so contradictory, I kept calling Jay and sending him stuff saying, "What, [01:48:33.200 – 01:48:36.220] what the devil is going on here?" You know, "How can I be doing this?" You know? [01:48:36.220 – 01:48:38.640] So he was a sounding board for it and very, very helpful. [01:48:38.640 – 01:48:39.880] So. [01:48:39.880 – 01:48:44.740] It sound, it sound like Hennessy was an alcoholic who knew Bill W. and wanted him to sign for it, yeah?

[01:48:44.740 – 01:48:48.140] I, I, I- Yeah. [01:48:48.140 – 01:48:48.319] Yeah, yeah. [01:48:48.319 – 01:48:48.670] He was… [01:48:48.670 – 01:48:51.679] But he was going down to talk about, uh, uh, F.. [01:48:51.679 – 01:48:51.960] F.. [01:48:51.960 – 01:48:54.940] So obv- obviously he knew F. from, on some level. [01:48:54.940 – 01:48:59.879] Fitz had died, Fitz died in, uh, 1943, I think.

[01:48:59.879 – 01:49:05.940] Um, actually I think F. died on my birthday, October 4th, 1943. [01:49:05.940 – 01:49:07.600] Thanks, Phil. [01:49:07.600 – 01:49:10.020] Tha- thank you. [01:49:10.020 – 01:49:11.680] And we'll go to Azel. [01:49:11.680 – 01:49:13.180] Azel, what's your question? [01:49:13.180 – 01:49:14.300] All right. [01:49:14.300 – 01:49:15.620] Hello to everyone.

[01:49:15.620 – 01:49:20.480] My question is on page 447. [01:49:20.480 – 01:49:21.800] Yeah. [01:49:21.800 – 01:49:24.540] Seven, seven lines down. [01:49:24.540 – 01:49:26.200] Dan. [01:49:26.200 – 01:49:27.240] Yeah. [01:49:27.240 – 01:49:28.000] What time's the barbecue starting? [01:49:28.000 – 01:49:30.500] It reads- Uh, Friday.

[01:49:30.500 – 01:49:31.300] Okay. [01:49:31.300 – 01:49:31.409] Um… [01:49:31.409 – 01:49:35.040] "I was awful leery of the rows." I don't know. [01:49:35.040 – 01:49:37.319] Well, late, well, last week it rained. [01:49:37.319 – 01:49:38.380] Wait a minute. [01:49:38.380 – 01:49:40.120] I can hear somebody else talk. [01:49:40.120 – 01:49:40.800] Yeah, can…

[01:49:40.800 – 01:49:44.150] Please, if you're not, uh, please mute yourselves. [01:49:44.150 – 01:49:48.160] I'm going to mute everyone. [01:49:48.160 – 01:49:48.490] Are you with me? [01:49:48.490 – 01:49:49.240] Unmute, unmute everyone. [01:49:49.240 – 01:49:50.280] And then we can just do it again. [01:49:50.280 – 01:49:54.380] Are you with me, Bill? [01:49:54.380 – 01:49:58.280] I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, seven lines down on page 147.

[01:49:58.280 – 01:49:59.600] I don't know what you're talking about. [01:49:59.600 – 01:50:02.580] No, 447. [01:50:02.580 – 01:50:04.080] 44- yeah, on 440. [01:50:04.080 – 01:50:04.460] I'm sorry. [01:50:04.460 – 01:50:06.780] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. [01:50:06.780 – 01:50:07.180] Okay. [01:50:07.180 – 01:50:09.420] Now- Almost, almost laughable.

[01:50:09.420 – 01:50:10.460] No. [01:50:10.460 – 01:50:11.200] What? [01:50:11.200 – 01:50:17.189] He noted- Azel … [01:50:17.189 – 01:50:26.760] that, "I was awful leery of the rows." My assumption is, and I think you read rows. [01:50:26.760 – 01:50:29.800] A- again, I'm sorry, Azel. [01:50:29.800 – 01:50:31.720] I don't know where you are or what you're reading. [01:50:31.720 – 01:50:34.540] What is your question, Azel?

[01:50:34.540 – 01:50:41.720] My question is, uh, well, if he doesn't know where I am i- it's not gonna make sense to him. [01:50:41.720 – 01:50:46.220] But this appears also in Bill's story. [01:50:46.220 – 01:50:49.160] Uh, the, the same para- Oh, here. [01:50:49.160 – 01:50:53.260] Oh, "I was awful leery of the rows." Yes. [01:50:53.260 – 01:50:56.560] Bill, it's on the screen. [01:50:56.560 – 01:50:57.200] Bill S.. [01:50:57.200 – 01:50:59.090] Look, I have it highlighted on the screen, Bill.

[01:50:59.090 – 01:50:59.300] All right. [01:50:59.300 – 01:50:59.420] Okay. [01:50:59.420 – 01:51:00.550] I, I'm, I'm, I, I got the line. [01:51:00.550 – 01:51:06.900] It says, "He noted that," quote, " 'I was awful leery of the rows.' " Is that what we're talking about? [01:51:06.900 – 01:51:08.900] That's what we're talking about. [01:51:08.900 – 01:51:10.880] And what's the question then? [01:51:10.880 – 01:51:21.200] The question was, is it meant to be the same definition as used in

[01:51:21.200 – 01:51:31.260] the Big Book when Bill says, "All of my friendships terminated in [01:51:31.260 – 01:51:32.020] a row"? [01:51:32.020 – 01:51:33.060] Yeah. [01:51:33.060 – 01:51:34.640] Well, rows are arguments. [01:51:34.640 – 01:51:36.020] Those are fights. [01:51:36.020 – 01:51:37.540] Those are- Exactly. [01:51:37.540 – 01:51:45.340] But what I'm, uh, the point I'm trying to make, for y- for years I looked at it as rows.

[01:51:45.340 – 01:51:46.120] Ah. [01:51:46.120 – 01:51:47.160] Okay? [01:51:47.160 – 01:51:50.060] And so that, that changes the definition. [01:51:50.060 – 01:51:50.960] Sure. [01:51:50.960 – 01:51:51.660] It- Or the- Yeah … [01:51:51.660 – 01:51:53.820] or the context of the definition. [01:51:53.820 – 01:52:02.760] In that sense it, it makes it seem as though they hap- they, it happened in, um- In sequence, one after the other …

[01:52:02.760 – 01:52:03.440] in, in sequence. [01:52:03.440 – 01:52:04.260] Exactly. [01:52:04.260 – 01:52:04.560] Yeah. [01:52:04.560 – 01:52:07.660] And no, no, we're talking about r- rows here, not rows. [01:52:07.660 – 01:52:08.460] I have another- [01:52:09.208 – 01:52:11.728] One of those homonym problems in English, you know? [01:52:11.728 – 01:52:12.848] Exactly.

[01:52:12.848 – 01:52:16.168] And I, I kind of thought that's where you, that's what you meant. [01:52:16.168 – 01:52:18.268] But I wanted to ask you for sure. [01:52:18.268 – 01:52:18.948] Yeah. [01:52:18.948 – 01:52:19.518] Yep. [01:52:19.518 – 01:52:19.968] All right. [01:52:19.968 – 01:52:25.408] Does anyone else have a, uh, have a question for Mr. [01:52:25.408 – 01:52:27.108] S. or Randy?

[01:52:27.108 – 01:52:27.138] Oh. [01:52:27.138 – 01:52:28.648] There he is, the proofer-reader. [01:52:28.648 – 01:52:30.888] Hi. [01:52:30.888 – 01:52:35.938] Well, uh, now that we're reading the footnotes, uh- … [01:52:35.938 – 01:52:39.288] uh, you, would you like me to send you some information? [01:52:39.288 – 01:52:40.888] Yes, of course I would. [01:52:40.888 – 01:52:41.787] Of course I would.

[01:52:41.787 – 01:52:42.788] Okay. [01:52:42.788 – 01:52:48.308] I'll send you some information over the next- Hey, Randy, while we have you, what, what's this talk you're going to do soon? [01:52:48.308 – 01:52:49.788] Do you want to give us an insight into it? [01:52:49.788 – 01:52:59.188] Well, the, uh, it's just about the major changes, uh, that happened between the different editions of the book. [01:52:59.188 – 01:53:03.768] Uh, language that's inserted, removed. [01:53:03.768 – 01:53:12.068] Uh, there is a little bit about exactly what we read today, that, uh, the lone endeavor was removed. [01:53:12.068 – 01:53:19.968] Uh, you know, the spiritual, uh, appendix being added, some additions.

[01:53:19.968 – 01:53:26.328] Uh, uh, just some of the major changes that happened all throughout the Big Book. [01:53:26.328 – 01:53:26.358] Hmm. [01:53:26.358 – 01:53:36.548] And the story, when you pick up a Big Book, it's a moment in time, but if you follow from the beginning to the end, there's, there's [01:53:36.548 – 01:53:44.428] homage given to key players at certain instances that carry on throughout the book. [01:53:44.428 – 01:53:47.688] So I'm just pointing some of the facts out. [01:53:47.688 – 01:53:49.567] Thank you, Randy. [01:53:49.567 – 01:53:50.998] I…

[01:53:50.998 – 01:53:56.408] Yeah, I'm Steve from- And, uh, next we have, uh- Steve, can you raise your hand, please? [01:53:56.408 – 01:53:59.608] Yeah. [01:53:59.608 – 01:54:02.028] Next we have Bill L.. [01:54:02.028 – 01:54:03.448] Yeah. [01:54:03.448 – 01:54:05.228] Uh, thank you, Harold, for the reading. [01:54:05.228 – 01:54:15.648] And, uh, uh, what jumped out at me, Bill, uh, was the, um, difference between F.'s original version [01:54:15.648 – 01:54:22.588] story and, uh, what is obviously Bill's, uh, insertion in the published.

[01:54:22.588 – 01:54:32.118] You know the line, "I told him I believed in electricity and other forces of nature," which comes directly out of, uh, you know- Yeah … [01:54:32.118 – 01:54:36.168] We, We Agnostics, uh, Bill's, uh… [01:54:36.168 – 01:54:38.468] Uh, th- that kind of jumped out at me. [01:54:38.468 – 01:54:39.328] Thank you. [01:54:39.328 – 01:54:40.268] Yeah. [01:54:40.268 – 01:54:41.528] You know, I wouldn't be surprised. [01:54:41.528 – 01:54:51.618] You know, Bill was wandering around tell- talking to those guys, uh, Hank P., F., and I'm, I'm sure he would've, uh, would've told that story about, you know, Ebby coming to him and him saying, "Well, I don't

[01:54:51.618 – 01:54:52.568] believe in that stuff. [01:54:52.568 – 01:54:54.398] You know, I believe in electricity." Blah, blah. [01:54:54.398 – 01:54:55.598] You know, the, the whole line that… [01:54:55.598 – 01:54:56.548] Yeah. [01:54:56.548 – 01:54:58.608] I, I, I love it. [01:54:58.608 – 01:55:02.488] Boy, when we found that story at Stepping S., I was like, "Whoa. [01:55:02.488 – 01:55:04.428] Whoa." Hmm.

[01:55:04.428 – 01:55:07.048] Here's some pure Oxford Group stuff, you know? [01:55:07.048 – 01:55:08.108] Right on the money. [01:55:08.108 – 01:55:09.248] Good, good for you guys. [01:55:09.248 – 01:55:10.048] Steven. [01:55:10.048 – 01:55:12.068] Th- thank you, Bill. [01:55:12.068 – 01:55:14.408] And Steven- Hello … [01:55:14.408 – 01:55:15.848] in the- Yeah.

[01:55:15.848 – 01:55:17.768] I'm Steve from the UK, Alcolite. [01:55:17.768 – 01:55:27.788] Um, yeah, it's quite interesting because I listened to, um, Alcohics A. Big Book Reference E., [01:55:27.788 – 01:55:33.108] and it was quite interesting when you had the bit about the 12 apostles and all that. [01:55:33.108 – 01:55:41.368] It says that in this edition, but it also said that he prayed and meditated for 15 minutes beforehand. [01:55:41.368 – 01:55:44.888] Is, does that ring any bells? [01:55:44.888 – 01:55:46.508] I, I, I didn't… [01:55:46.508 – 01:55:50.128] If, if I had found that in any of the many, many- Hmm …

[01:55:50.128 – 01:55:56.818] If you look at the, you look at the endnotes, this, th- that, that composite story comes from about 15 different places. [01:55:56.818 – 01:55:57.348] Yeah. [01:55:57.348 – 01:56:03.288] And if, if I had, if I had stumbled across a place where it said he had prayed and meditated for 15 minutes, I would've stuck it in there. [01:56:03.288 – 01:56:04.368] So I didn't see that. [01:56:04.368 – 01:56:04.378] Yeah. [01:56:04.378 – 01:56:04.488] No. [01:56:04.488 – 01:56:06.588] Doesn't mean it's not there.

[01:56:06.588 – 01:56:08.808] I mean, I'm, I'm always open for new stuff. [01:56:08.808 – 01:56:09.357] Always. [01:56:09.357 – 01:56:09.798] Always. [01:56:09.798 – 01:56:11.228] Al- I love it when people come up with… [01:56:11.228 – 01:56:12.238] Well, not always. [01:56:12.238 – 01:56:15.728] I don't, don't really love it, but yeah, I really like it when people come up with new stuff. [01:56:15.728 – 01:56:16.168] Yeah.

[01:56:16.168 – 01:56:26.047] It's interesting because, um, people thought I was nuts saying that he, he put numbers next, and there was 12, and he said it was quite ironic because it, there's 12 apostles. [01:56:26.047 – 01:56:29.768] And, and it's all in this audio thing, which is quite interesting. [01:56:29.768 – 01:56:34.948] But- It, it would be great, it would be great to know where that, where you read that and what the source is. [01:56:34.948 – 01:56:35.798] Yeah. [01:56:35.798 – 01:56:38.668] That, that you c- if you could send that to, uh, to Bill. [01:56:38.668 – 01:56:39.338] Yeah. [01:56:39.338 – 01:56:40.628] I'm sure he would read that.

[01:56:40.628 – 01:56:41.398] Yeah. [01:56:41.398 – 01:56:41.908] Yeah. [01:56:41.908 – 01:56:43.108] If there's a source for it. [01:56:43.108 – 01:56:45.448] Thank, thank you, Steven. [01:56:45.448 – 01:56:45.748] Okay. [01:56:45.748 – 01:56:47.648] And well, next we'll go to Jennifer. [01:56:47.648 – 01:56:49.908] Hi.

[01:56:49.908 – 01:56:51.068] Jennifer, Alcoloc. [01:56:51.068 – 01:57:01.068] I just want to reference here in one of the, the footnotes we had on 449, it talked about being able to find, uh, Bill's handwritten of [01:57:01.068 – 01:57:03.928] the, um, 12 tr- 12 steps. [01:57:03.928 – 01:57:11.228] And then we look at the very last chapter that we read here, and it says that the first draft of the steps has been lost. [01:57:11.228 – 01:57:14.688] So I got a little confused on that. [01:57:14.688 – 01:57:15.268] I, well, I, I'm sorry. [01:57:15.268 – 01:57:25.508] Th- th- there's a famous napkin or something that, the piece of paper that Bill W. wrote the six steps on, and it, and you can find it on the internet.

[01:57:25.508 – 01:57:29.238] I, I don't know what I, what my reference is here, but it's, it's, it's not- [01:57:29.564 – 01:57:40.284] To the, not to the 12 steps, it's to the six steps Okay So, so it was just one of those things that he wrote sometime in the 1950s or the 1960s, [01:57:40.284 – 01:57:42.884] that he, he sketched it out on a little piece of paper. [01:57:42.884 – 01:57:45.723] One, two, three, four, five, six, and it's just, you know, you… [01:57:45.723 – 01:57:46.684] I don't know. [01:57:46.684 – 01:57:49.524] I bet you, I bet you it's in 20 different places on the internet. [01:57:49.524 – 01:57:50.463] Um Y..

[01:57:50.463 – 01:57:51.424] All right. [01:57:51.424 – 01:57:52.004] Thank you. [01:57:52.004 – 01:57:56.064] Yeah, I think it's, the one you're referring to is the one that starts off, "Dear Ed"? [01:57:56.064 – 01:57:57.704] Yeah. [01:57:57.704 – 01:57:58.544] Yeah. [01:57:58.544 – 01:57:59.524] Yeah, yeah. [01:57:59.524 – 01:58:03.044] Uh, and back to Ed, Bill L..

[01:58:03.044 – 01:58:06.044] Yeah, just a quick question, Bill. [01:58:06.044 – 01:58:10.804] What is the main events that, that you mention in your footnotes? [01:58:10.804 – 01:58:21.644] If, if you go to the bibliography, Bill, you'll see that main events was a, was a recording that Bill W. made in preparation for writing AA Comes of Age in 1954. [01:58:21.644 – 01:58:28.523] And, and it's just a, it's a stream of consciousness thing that- that- that- that the, the archivists have- have- have called main events. [01:58:28.523 – 01:58:30.564] And- and but he just, he just start… [01:58:30.564 – 01:58:37.794] I mean, I've heard the recording and I've seen the transcript, and he says, you know, "1934, December, I go to Town's Hospital," blah, blah, blah. [01:58:37.794 – 01:58:43.744] "And then 1935, point one, I do this, and point two, I do that, and point three." He just keeps talking through the whole thing.

[01:58:43.744 – 01:58:53.744] And he was, he was just trying to get the story out in some sort of rough format so that, so that he could, he could then use that material when he wrote AA Comes of [01:58:53.744 – 01:58:54.024] Age. [01:58:54.024 – 01:59:00.664] And it's, uh, it's a great document, 'cause there's stuff that turns up there that really doesn't, doesn't show up much of any place else. [01:59:00.664 – 01:59:07.744] Uh, I, I quote it with some regularity because it was just, it's just raw stream of consciousness stuff that he's, that he's doing. [01:59:07.744 – 01:59:10.244] And, uh, it's a great piece. [01:59:10.244 – 01:59:11.564] Thank you. [01:59:11.564 – 01:59:13.964] Uh, c- Jim, I'm gonna make Jim host.

[01:59:13.964 – 01:59:14.704] Jim, I have to… [01:59:14.704 – 01:59:15.484] Sorry, I have to go. [01:59:15.484 – 01:59:19.184] I, I've been asked to share my experience, so unfortunately I have to go tonight. [01:59:19.184 – 01:59:20.064] I'm g- gonna go. [01:59:20.064 – 01:59:21.344] Jim, you're gonna make you host. [01:59:21.344 – 01:59:23.904] All right. [01:59:23.904 – 01:59:25.244] Thank you.

[01:59:25.244 – 01:59:27.324] And we'll, uh, continue. [01:59:27.324 – 01:59:28.624] I'm gonna do, uh, one thing. [01:59:28.624 – 01:59:31.464] I'm going to, uh, uh, share this. [01:59:31.464 – 01:59:35.664] Uh, Jennifer and, uh, Bill, I think this is what you were referring to. [01:59:35.664 – 01:59:40.024] Uh, to Ed probably means, uh, on, on- Yeah, there it is. [01:59:40.024 – 01:59:40.824] Yeah … [01:59:40.824 – 01:59:41.084] Ed.

[01:59:41.084 – 01:59:43.384] Probably he wrote this to Ed D.. [01:59:43.384 – 01:59:45.144] Admitted hopeless. [01:59:45.144 – 01:59:49.524] Uh, you know, got honest with self, got honest with others. [01:59:49.524 – 01:59:53.803] Made amends, helped others, uh, without, uh, demand. [01:59:53.803 – 01:59:56.824] Prayed to God as you understand Him. [01:59:56.824 – 01:59:58.544] Ever, Bill W. [01:59:58.544 – 02:00:00.344] 1953.

[02:00:00.344 – 02:00:03.904] All right. [02:00:03.904 – 02:00:06.284] Let's, uh, then go to Hugh. [02:00:06.284 – 02:00:08.124] Next, uh, uh- Hugh, now what is your question? [02:00:08.124 – 02:00:12.284] Bill, to your know- Hugh Oh, sorry. [02:00:12.284 – 02:00:13.624] You meant me, right J- Jim? [02:00:13.624 – 02:00:14.484] Hugh, yes. [02:00:14.484 – 02:00:14.824] Please.

[02:00:14.824 – 02:00:19.224] Bill, t- great job by the way, everyone. [02:00:19.224 – 02:00:25.224] Does, to your knowledge, has that AA main points ever been transcribed into a document? [02:00:25.224 – 02:00:27.644] Yes, but it, but it's never been published. [02:00:27.644 – 02:00:28.364] It's in the archive. [02:00:28.364 – 02:00:36.044] Both, both, uh, Stepping S. and, uh, I think Stepping S. has got a copy of it, but certainly, uh, a GSO archive has one. [02:00:36.044 – 02:00:46.284] The problem is that according to, uh, at the GSO archive at least, according to a general service conference thing pa- [02:00:46.284 – 02:00:50.504] passed in the early '70s, I think, they can't make copies of anything.

[02:00:50.504 – 02:00:52.704] Nothing. [02:00:52.704 – 02:00:52.773] Wow. [02:00:52.773 – 02:00:59.844] So when I did my research, I, I first went down there, I started transcribing stuff and trying to type it afterwards, and that just wasn't working for me. [02:00:59.844 – 02:01:00.724] So I went down there. [02:01:00.724 – 02:01:04.164] I, I live about an hour and 15 minutes away from the archive. [02:01:04.164 – 02:01:12.344] So I would drive down there, and I would, I would, I typed every single word, and I mean every single word, including letterhead words. [02:01:12.344 – 02:01:18.964] Every single word on every piece of paper they had from 1937, 1938, and the first six months of 1939.

[02:01:18.964 – 02:01:19.394] Wow. [02:01:19.394 – 02:01:21.924] And that document's like 400 pages long. [02:01:21.924 – 02:01:24.464] But I, I didn't type up the whole, the whole… [02:01:24.464 – 02:01:28.304] I, I just did, you know, the im- the, the stuff from, uh, there is a… [02:01:28.304 – 02:01:29.333] Where did I get that? [02:01:29.333 – 02:01:34.264] I, I think I, I actually m- may have a copy of that that somebody's bootlegged around. [02:01:34.264 – 02:01:37.964] But I, it's not the sort of thing that, uh, that they w- they…

[02:01:37.964 – 02:01:41.254] I wouldn't wanna be giving that out, 'cause I'd get a black mark- Yeah, sure … [02:01:41.254 – 02:01:42.824] from, uh, Michelle- Yep, yep … [02:01:42.824 – 02:01:44.104] down at the archive, you know? [02:01:44.104 – 02:01:46.614] Can you, can you will m- will it to me? [02:01:46.614 – 02:01:47.444] Yeah. [02:01:47.444 – 02:01:49.844] Thanks. [02:01:49.844 – 02:01:50.344] All right.

[02:01:50.344 – 02:01:50.713] Thank you, Hugh. [02:01:50.713 – 02:01:53.103] You know, on that, you know, on that note, it's an interesting question. [02:01:53.103 – 02:01:53.834] Like, what… [02:01:53.834 – 02:01:54.804] I mean, I'm 78. [02:01:54.804 – 02:01:55.744] What am I gonna do with all… [02:01:55.744 – 02:01:58.904] I got, I got tons of stuff in the back, my research materials. [02:01:58.904 – 02:02:05.544] And I was talking to Kevin H., who did, uh, with Dan C., did the Bill W documentary, and he said something to me that I'd never thought of.

[02:02:05.544 – 02:02:11.464] He said, "You should just give it to, uh, B. University," which has Ernie K.'s stuff, and you know, there's all kinds of good stuff. [02:02:11.464 – 02:02:13.704] There's all kinds of good stuff at B. University. [02:02:13.704 – 02:02:15.364] And I thought, "You know, that's a good idea. [02:02:15.364 – 02:02:18.724] Maybe I'll do that." So T.- thank you, Bill. [02:02:18.724 – 02:02:22.664] And, uh, we'll go to, uh, Dan in Australia. [02:02:22.664 – 02:02:26.404] Uh, thanks, Jim. [02:02:26.404 – 02:02:31.264] And, and thanks, H., for the read and the witness.

[02:02:31.264 – 02:02:41.304] Uh, Bill, you mentioned earlier, uh, the, the story, uh, uh, 'cause time's gone along. [02:02:41.304 – 02:02:49.854] I'm, I'm just wondering, do you know, did, uh, Bill do a little bit of editing on Hank's bo- [02:02:50.012 – 02:02:56.512] So because I'm just reading there, which it doesn't sound to me like, uh, like Hanky and the unbeliever. [02:02:56.512 – 02:02:58.972] Why are the tears running down my cheeks? [02:02:58.972 – 02:03:00.752] God have mercy on my soul. [02:03:00.752 – 02:03:06.871] This, it, it doesn't, uh- I, I, Dan, I don't think Bill W. touched a word of that story. [02:03:06.871 – 02:03:07.232] It's…

[02:03:07.232 – 02:03:13.372] I mean, you read it, it's- it's like, it's like a, it's like a James J. stream of consciousness thing, you know? [02:03:13.372 – 02:03:18.922] I mean, he had gone, he and Ruth had gone to this, this, this short story writing course that they- Right … [02:03:18.922 – 02:03:19.862] they, they, that he got. [02:03:19.862 – 02:03:24.392] And, uh, and, and Bill says in his letter to Bob, "Don't get too literary with these things. [02:03:24.392 – 02:03:29.552] Just straight out." But Hank P. was definitely going for a literary effect, there's no doubt about it. [02:03:29.552 – 02:03:30.712] Yeah, I don't think… [02:03:30.712 – 02:03:31.752] No.

[02:03:31.752 – 02:03:33.142] And- and you know the stories- Mm … [02:03:33.142 – 02:03:39.672] the stories that, that came in after the Malta lift are up in Stepping S., and- and they're, they're edited by Hank P.. [02:03:39.672 – 02:03:42.652] And man, he's j- he was a, he was a tough editor. [02:03:42.652 – 02:03:49.212] I mean, talked about Myron W.' story as being one of the guys who doesn't really talk about God being his savior here. [02:03:49.212 – 02:03:56.372] And- and Myron, he, Hank, Hank X'd out the first seven pages of a 15 hand- page handwritten manuscript on, on Myron W.. [02:03:56.372 – 02:03:57.732] He was a, he was a tough editor. [02:03:57.732 – 02:04:00.432] And- and- and one other thing, Bill.

[02:04:00.432 – 02:04:05.492] Would it, would it be fair to say that, uh, given Dr. [02:04:05.492 – 02:04:13.632] Bob's comments that, you know, uh, that prior to the, uh, prior to the steps they didn't have anything concrete. [02:04:13.632 – 02:04:20.552] His, his opinion was that they were loosely, uh, working around the four absolutes. [02:04:20.552 – 02:04:25.942] Would, would it be fair to say that, you know, this, the A. report, and all the rest of them- Mm … [02:04:25.942 – 02:04:36.232] are more one human being's interpretation of what's going on, that there was never any actual concrete six steps, that all of, all of this stuff [02:04:36.232 – 02:04:42.832] is human, human interpretation of how they see the situation, or saw the situation? [02:04:42.832 – 02:04:43.532] Yeah, certainly.

[02:04:43.532 – 02:04:48.472] There were seven steps in Hank's report, and certainly what he was doing was just this is what he heard. [02:04:48.472 – 02:04:53.732] And, and how accurate that is, is, is subject, you know, it's always subject to, to question on that. [02:04:53.732 – 02:04:59.612] But, uh, you know, we, we can't forget that these guys were definitely doing something to stay sober. [02:04:59.612 – 02:05:02.652] They weren't drinking, and it was a miracle. [02:05:02.652 – 02:05:07.332] You know, when, when they, when they, when they got all excited in October of '37, they got 40 people sober. [02:05:07.332 – 02:05:08.092] There were… [02:05:08.092 – 02:05:11.932] That was, that was 1,000% justified.

[02:05:11.932 – 02:05:14.492] It was, it was a miracle. [02:05:14.492 – 02:05:19.992] And, and to be able to say that there was 100, there wasn't 100, but, but anyhow, you know, they, they had a whole boatload of people sober. [02:05:19.992 – 02:05:22.052] It, whatever they were doing was working. [02:05:22.052 – 02:05:23.612] What were they doing? [02:05:23.612 – 02:05:24.432] What were they doing exactly? [02:05:24.432 – 02:05:26.712] I think they were doing whatever was working, you know? [02:05:26.712 – 02:05:34.952] And whatever was working, and it was different what they were doing in Akron, it was different what they were doing in New York, and I think there was different things happening in both of those places, you know?

[02:05:34.952 – 02:05:38.112] Somebody would say, "Well, this worked for me." I would be like, "Good, good. [02:05:38.112 – 02:05:39.572] You're not drinking, we're good with that. [02:05:39.572 – 02:05:41.522] We're good with that." Mm-hmm. [02:05:41.522 – 02:05:48.652] AA's, AA's made up of most successfully, in my opinion, most successfully made up of- of- of supreme pragmatists. [02:05:48.652 – 02:05:50.132] We're just interested in what works. [02:05:50.132 – 02:05:51.242] Mm. [02:05:51.242 – 02:05:53.012] We're interested in you not drinking.

[02:05:53.012 – 02:05:55.252] Hey, Bill, it's H.. [02:05:55.252 – 02:06:02.412] You mentioned, uh, some edits, edits in what I guess we'll call the, uh, Randy E version of the book. [02:06:02.412 – 02:06:08.712] Uh, when is that coming out, and how are you gonna denote that, those changes on the page? [02:06:08.712 – 02:06:11.632] Well, there's, there's been changes. [02:06:11.632 – 02:06:16.012] We've had, we've had three printings of the hardback, and there's been changes in the second and third printing. [02:06:16.012 – 02:06:16.042] Oh, okay. [02:06:16.042 – 02:06:18.992] And then we did a, a paperback, and there was changes in the paperback.

[02:06:18.992 – 02:06:23.892] But they're coming out in the n- I thought it was gonna happen this month, but it, it may… [02:06:23.892 – 02:06:26.811] There's, there's supply chain problems going on. [02:06:26.811 – 02:06:32.032] So, uh, but soon there's gonna be a fourth printing of the paperback, and a second printing… [02:06:32.032 – 02:06:35.872] I'm sorry, a fourth printing of the hardback, and a second printing of the paperback. [02:06:35.872 – 02:06:45.052] And I, I made a boatload of good changes in that, where people have pointed stuff out to me that, that, that, that I got it wrong or, or there was additional information that, that informed stuff. [02:06:45.052 – 02:06:49.572] So I, uh, I, exactly when that's gonna happen, I don't… [02:06:49.572 – 02:06:51.092] H., it's not really noted.

[02:06:51.092 – 02:06:56.982] I mean, um, it doesn't, it doesn't say, you know, this got changed in this printing- Yeah … [02:06:56.982 – 02:07:01.192] and that got changed in that printing, so I don't- You're just gonna make the changes. [02:07:01.192 – 02:07:09.652] In the, uh, f- this reprint, uh, new printing of the soft cover, are you going to include the sources in the back, or are they still being left out? [02:07:09.652 – 02:07:10.812] I would… [02:07:10.812 – 02:07:19.392] The, the appendices, the 10 appendices in the back are being left out for, for, that's 80 pages, so it really took 10% of the bulk of the book out, and that was the whole point. [02:07:19.392 – 02:07:23.712] People are complaining about the fact it's just too unwieldy because it's, it's so big. [02:07:23.712 – 02:07:31.312] Um, one of the things that w- I'll be doing, I've got a document of all the changes that have been made to the book.

[02:07:31.312 – 02:07:39.252] And, uh, and as soon as those printings are out, um, John K, who's- who's- who's about two blocks, two blocks below me on, on Hollywood S. here. [02:07:39.252 – 02:07:49.152] John K.'s been working really, really well on my website, uh, and- and helping me put, uh, things when I'm, when I'm, when I'm online and doing presentations and things. [02:07:49.152 – 02:07:56.552] But we are gonna put a new tab up there for, uh, for errata, and, uh, you'll be able, be able to access that whole document. [02:07:56.552 – 02:07:58.912] But I, I don't want to put that up there until the printing's out. [02:07:58.912 – 02:08:01.162] So if I want- Randy … [02:08:01.162 – 02:08:09.892] the m- the most recent version with the appendices, I gotta buy the f- the new edition, the fourth of the hardcover coming out soon? [02:08:10.468 – 02:08:11.088] Exactly.

[02:08:11.088 – 02:08:11.988] I'll wait for that. [02:08:11.988 – 02:08:12.988] All right. [02:08:12.988 – 02:08:14.727] All right, thank you. [02:08:14.727 – 02:08:21.508] Does anyone else have a question before we officially end the meeting? [02:08:21.508 – 02:08:31.808] All right, then, uh, I'm gonna ask, uh, Bill, as we usually do, to, uh, close the meeting in any way that he would like, and we [02:08:31.868 – 02:08:33.228] usually know how he likes. [02:08:33.228 – 02:08:35.208] So B., it's over to you.

[02:08:35.208 – 02:08:36.768] Thank you very much. [02:08:36.768 – 02:08:39.528] I thought that we're gonna ask H., but I'll, I'll close it out. [02:08:39.528 – 02:08:39.758] I'll… [02:08:39.758 – 02:08:40.688] I'm good with that. [02:08:40.688 – 02:08:48.328] Um, I'd like to close, as I always do, with the evening gatha, a Buddhist, uh, gatha. [02:08:48.328 – 02:08:58.948] Uh, so, uh, after a moment of silence for people suffering all over the world for all kinds of different reasons, I'd [02:08:58.948 – 02:09:04.208] like to say the evening gatha, and, uh, I encourage you to say a silent prayer of your choice.

[02:09:04.208 – 02:09:10.388] Let me respectfully remind you, life and death are of supreme importance. [02:09:10.388 – 02:09:13.908] Time swiftly passes by and opportunity is lost. [02:09:13.908 – 02:09:17.428] Each of us should strive to awaken, awaken. [02:09:17.428 – 02:09:18.748] Take heed. [02:09:18.748 – 02:09:21.668] Tonight your days are diminished by one. [02:09:21.668 – 02:09:23.488] Do not squander your life. [02:09:23.488 – 02:09:27.808] Thank you very much, Bill.

[02:09:27.808 – 02:09:35.788] Thank you to all of you who are, uh, who were here today and participated, and I hope you got a lot out of it, just as I did. [02:09:35.788 – 02:09:36.928] Thank you, Mr. [02:09:36.928 – 02:09:37.808] Shayberg. [02:09:37.808 – 02:09:39.008] Thank you, Bill. [02:09:39.008 – 02:09:39.258] Thank you. [02:09:39.258 – 02:09:39.598] Thank you, H., for waiting. [02:09:39.598 – 02:09:39.638] Thank you.

[02:09:39.638 – 02:09:39.639] Thank you. [02:09:39.639 – 02:09:40.388] Thank you, Bill H.. [02:09:40.388 – 02:09:44.918] Thank you, H., for the reading. [02:09:44.918 – 02:09:46.308] Thank you, Riley. [02:09:46.308 – 02:09:47.468] And thank you, Riley. [02:09:47.468 – 02:09:48.888] Thank you, Riley. [02:09:48.888 – 02:09:50.268] Thank you so much.

[02:09:50.268 – 02:09:51.588] All right. [02:09:51.588 – 02:09:52.678] Thank you, H., for reading. [02:09:52.678 – 02:09:53.268] Thanks, everyone. [02:09:53.268 – 02:09:54.388] Thank you all. [02:09:54.388 – 02:09:55.608] Thank you very much. [02:09:55.608 – 02:10:15.048] I'm [02:10:15.048 – 02:10:25.428] able to hang around for a while if anyone would like to do some discussion at the meeting here after the meeting in the parking lot or, or the car park,

[02:10:25.428 – 02:10:33.518] or, or, uh, or at Denny's or wherever you're at, wherever you do, uh, your meeting after the meeting. [02:10:33.518 – 02:10:43.528] Anybody have a, a topic or something from today's reading that they would like to mention, [02:10:43.528 – 02:10:44.728] or… [02:10:44.728 – 02:10:46.408] Um, oh, what is… [02:10:46.408 – 02:10:47.868] Let's see. [02:10:47.868 – 02:10:50.808] Joyce. [02:10:50.808 – 02:10:51.118] Joyce?

[02:10:51.118 – 02:10:52.228] Yeah, Joyce, go ahead. [02:10:52.228 – 02:10:57.928] Um, I loved the reading today, but I don't know… [02:10:57.928 – 02:11:05.618] You know, I don't know if it was me, but I think I'll, I'll have to reread it again because it was so much to, so much to take in. [02:11:05.618 – 02:11:09.468] I was thinking, "Oh, God." It was overwhelming. [02:11:09.468 – 02:11:11.928] I, I just, like somebody said, how did he… [02:11:11.928 – 02:11:18.048] Well, he said himself that it was just an enormous task of trying to figure it all out. [02:11:18.048 – 02:11:21.387] And so I'm looking forward to listening to the…

[02:11:21.387 – 02:11:27.368] That's a great thing that we've got there, you know, the previous recordings to res- listen to. [02:11:27.368 – 02:11:33.748] But I just find them personally helpful to me in getting a real grasp of the chapter, whatever the chapter's about. [02:11:33.748 – 02:11:34.268] That's all. [02:11:34.268 – 02:11:35.388] That's, that's all. [02:11:35.388 – 02:11:35.808] Yeah. [02:11:35.808 – 02:11:36.058] And, um, yeah. [02:11:36.058 – 02:11:36.648] Thank you, Joyce.

[02:11:36.648 – 02:11:46.728] I, you know, I, I think that, uh, you know, this is our second time on this meeting, you know, going through the, through the book and it, and it's, to a certain extent, every book is the same, but [02:11:46.728 – 02:11:47.728] it's like the big book. [02:11:47.728 – 02:11:48.238] Right. [02:11:48.238 – 02:11:51.528] You know, it's like every time you read it, you get something new out of it. [02:11:51.528 – 02:11:53.028] And we're reading the… [02:11:53.028 – 02:11:56.388] You know, some of us are reading this book for the third or the fourth time. [02:11:56.388 – 02:11:56.738] The third.

[02:11:56.738 – 02:11:56.988] Yeah. [02:11:56.988 – 02:11:57.358] Yeah. [02:11:57.358 – 02:11:57.588] You know? [02:11:57.588 – 02:12:02.667] And every time there's something new that pops out or, you know, something. [02:12:02.667 – 02:12:03.228] So yeah. [02:12:03.228 – 02:12:04.338] I mean- Yeah … [02:12:04.338 – 02:12:09.568] honestly, it is an amazing, amazing undertaking and he has to be commended.

[02:12:09.568 – 02:12:16.878] It's been said before lots of times, I know it's been mentioned by other people that, uh, what a wonderful, wonderful project that he- Oh, yeah … [02:12:16.878 – 02:12:19.408] took upon himself and- It's research, you know? [02:12:19.408 – 02:12:19.928] Yeah. [02:12:19.928 – 02:12:21.008] And- You know? [02:12:21.008 – 02:12:22.058] And he's so- … [02:12:22.058 – 02:12:22.498] marvelous man … [02:12:22.498 – 02:12:32.608] I love when he's so open about, "Well, he never caught that," or, "People have done this," and then, you know, it's all gonna be noted that he's working on those changes and, uh, you know, very humble

[02:12:32.608 – 02:12:33.448] about all of that. [02:12:33.448 – 02:12:35.188] It's, it's really quite lovely, isn't it? [02:12:35.188 – 02:12:43.328] You know, the, the- Yeah, I, I, I don't know of, uh, of very many authors that, uh, come to a weekly meeting- First of all … [02:12:43.328 – 02:12:50.268] well, come to a weekly meeting, you know, like him to answer questions and, and to listen to critics and, and, uh- Yeah … [02:12:50.268 – 02:12:55.098] and nitpickers who found that the, you know, the word on page 339- Oh, sure … [02:12:55.098 – 02:12:57.178] was spelled wrong or, you know- Right … [02:12:57.178 – 02:12:58.228] and listen to all that.

[02:12:58.228 – 02:13:08.248] And plus he d- he goes, uh, to other places and does presentations for other meetings and, uh, you know, just, uh, passing along the message and I think that's [02:13:08.248 – 02:13:11.438] how he, how he sees it, passing along- Well, like- … [02:13:11.438 – 02:13:13.008] historical information. [02:13:13.008 – 02:13:13.018] Yeah. [02:13:13.018 – 02:13:14.328] Well-researched. [02:13:14.328 – 02:13:14.828] Yeah. [02:13:14.828 – 02:13:17.108] No, it's so interesting and I've just loved it.

[02:13:17.108 – 02:13:21.248] I can't remem- I mean, I've got it journaled when I came in last year. [02:13:21.248 – 02:13:23.208] It was right in the middle of reading the book. [02:13:23.208 – 02:13:30.758] But, uh, anyway, whether it was tonight, I just found it, um, I was quite overwhelmed today whether I had to move over to another chair 'cause- [02:13:31.076 – 02:13:35.616] I thought, "Well, I've got to put my feet up so that I can absorb all of this." Anyway, it was really lovely. [02:13:35.616 – 02:13:39.876] And, um, I just feel, although I don't say much, I really enjoy meeting everybody. [02:13:39.876 – 02:13:49.716] It's been a pleasure and a, a privilege for me, you know, to be here every week and, uh, learn more about the history and be open to, uh, open to all of this stuff. [02:13:49.716 – 02:13:50.416] It's wonderful.

[02:13:50.416 – 02:13:51.056] Wonderful. [02:13:51.056 – 02:13:51.316] Yeah. [02:13:51.316 – 02:13:52.786] Anyway, I'll get going. [02:13:52.786 – 02:13:52.966] Thank you. [02:13:52.966 – 02:13:57.876] And, uh, uh, my home group is tonight, so, um, I'll see you all tomorrow or next week. [02:13:57.876 – 02:13:58.876] Great. [02:13:58.876 – 02:14:00.016] Thank you, Joyce.

[02:14:00.016 – 02:14:00.406] Take care. [02:14:00.406 – 02:14:00.936] Thanks. [02:14:00.936 – 02:14:01.676] Bye bye. [02:14:01.676 – 02:14:04.796] Would anyone else like to share anything or? [02:14:04.796 – 02:14:14.876] Uh, you know, Jim, uh, you made, uh, the comment just, just now, you know, about people who wanna [02:14:14.876 – 02:14:22.696] know what word means or, or something like that, uh, um, who may be attending this meeting. [02:14:22.696 – 02:14:33.156] But I think it's very important that, uh, we understand the context exactly, uh, when we're discussing whatever

[02:14:33.156 – 02:14:39.676] we're discussing, uh, about the book or, or any other piece of literature. [02:14:39.676 – 02:14:50.136] As you know, the English language is one of the most complex languages in the world, and, uh, oftentimes we [02:14:50.136 – 02:14:57.276] make assumptions about what something is meant, and, uh, and we take it and we run with it. [02:14:57.276 – 02:15:02.456] Is, um, the guy who read today, is he still here? [02:15:02.456 – 02:15:03.976] Uh, no. [02:15:03.976 – 02:15:05.396] No, H.'s gone. [02:15:05.396 – 02:15:06.836] Oh, okay.

[02:15:06.836 – 02:15:12.916] Because, you know, H- H., H., bless his heart, but he brutalized it. [02:15:12.916 – 02:15:15.756] He brutalized his reading today. [02:15:15.756 – 02:15:24.716] You know, he put words in that, that came to his mind, not the words that were, were on, uh, on the page. [02:15:24.716 – 02:15:34.736] And, uh, that's why I asked if he was here, because I don't wanna make it seem like I'm, I'm going behind his back trying to, [02:15:34.736 – 02:15:36.846] uh, scrutinize him. [02:15:36.846 – 02:15:46.316] But what it points out to me, it points out to me on when people read, sometimes people are listening to themselves, and as they… [02:15:46.316 – 02:15:48.536] in- instead of reading the black.

[02:15:48.536 – 02:15:54.786] And when you're listening to yourself, you often say what you think- Yeah, exactly … [02:15:54.786 – 02:15:59.156] as opposed to what, what the words are on, on the, on the page. [02:15:59.156 – 02:15:59.356] Yeah. [02:15:59.356 – 02:16:04.556] How many, how many years now have you been reading the word R-O-W wrong? [02:16:04.556 – 02:16:05.796] Exactly. [02:16:05.796 – 02:16:06.236] Yeah. [02:16:06.236 – 02:16:06.816] Exactly.

[02:16:06.816 – 02:16:17.126] And there's a, there's one, I can't remember exactly where it is, but there's another, uh, uh, one that I always get wrong, and you can read it both ways, and they both make sense, [02:16:17.126 – 02:16:17.716] you know? [02:16:17.716 – 02:16:18.906] So yeah- Yeah … [02:16:18.906 – 02:16:28.996] we all, we all come to, to the book with our own, uh, with our own baggage, our own experience, our own levels of reading, and, you know, [02:16:28.996 – 02:16:29.696] everything else. [02:16:29.696 – 02:16:31.085] We come to, uh- Exactly … [02:16:31.085 – 02:16:39.196] we come to it with that, and, uh, and, and I think that's why it's, uh, you know, that's why we take newcomers through the big book.

[02:16:39.196 – 02:16:40.356] That's right. [02:16:40.356 – 02:16:41.236] You know? [02:16:41.236 – 02:16:43.076] That's exactly right. [02:16:43.076 – 02:16:48.796] But yeah, you wanna, you wanna be somewhat correct yourself as you take 'em through it. [02:16:48.796 – 02:16:50.116] That's right. [02:16:50.116 – 02:16:50.696] That's right. [02:16:50.696 – 02:16:51.976] Absolutely.

[02:16:51.976 – 02:16:58.536] Yeah, Jim, I was gonna say, I think you were thinking about the word, 'cause I heard it last, last week, brainstorming. [02:16:58.536 – 02:17:08.576] Oh, well, no, that, that's one that I remember, but there's another one that, you know, it's, uh, it's a phrase, and you can read it both ways [02:17:08.576 – 02:17:11.116] because the verb, it can be a… [02:17:11.116 – 02:17:15.306] it, it's like L-I-V-E, uh- Uh-huh … [02:17:15.306 – 02:17:20.766] or L- How- You know, and it can be live or, what, what is it? [02:17:20.766 – 02:17:22.896] Oh, live or- It's lives … [02:17:22.896 – 02:17:24.076] lives or lives.

[02:17:24.076 – 02:17:25.175] Uh-huh. [02:17:25.175 – 02:17:26.676] It can be live or lives. [02:17:26.676 – 02:17:28.016] Lives or lives. [02:17:28.016 – 02:17:28.626] Lives or lives. [02:17:28.626 – 02:17:29.736] We, we went through that, too. [02:17:29.736 – 02:17:31.456] We went through that, too. [02:17:31.456 – 02:17:37.766] If, do you say, uh, deep down in everybody, lives or lives?

[02:17:37.766 – 02:17:38.606] Yeah. [02:17:38.606 – 02:17:45.956] There, there's a, there's one particular phrase where you can read it either as a, a noun or as a verb, and it makes sense both ways. [02:17:45.956 – 02:17:46.566] That's correct. [02:17:46.566 – 02:17:49.046] I asked Bill about that one time, uh- That's, that's correct … [02:17:49.046 – 02:17:58.276] you know, about a month ago, and, and, uh, everybody has their own interpretation of it, you know, the way they, they read it and the way they understand it. [02:17:58.276 – 02:17:59.216] Right. [02:17:59.216 – 02:18:09.316] And, you know, it's that other one, too, that, that, uh, we often read in Bill's story where it talks about

[02:18:09.316 – 02:18:13.316] the stock and what the stock price was. [02:18:13.316 – 02:18:18.916] And most people read it XYZ-52. [02:18:18.916 – 02:18:20.726] Uh-huh. [02:18:20.726 – 02:18:25.785] And it's actually minus 52, and you lose the significance- Oh … [02:18:25.785 – 02:18:27.196] when you say dash. [02:18:27.196 – 02:18:29.016] Yeah. [02:18:29.016 – 02:18:29.216] Yeah.

[02:18:29.216 – 02:18:32.306] Yeah, yeah, 'cause it was down 52 or 32 or- Exactly … [02:18:32.306 – 02:18:33.196] yeah, whatever it was. [02:18:33.196 – 02:18:33.806] Yeah, exactly. [02:18:33.806 – 02:18:43.916] And if you don't, if you don't know anything about stocks and, and, and you haven't had, uh, you haven't been in that space, [02:18:43.916 – 02:18:44.776] then you don't know. [02:18:44.776 – 02:18:46.806] So you just say, "Oh." Yeah. [02:18:46.806 – 02:18:48.636] "XYZ, um- Yeah, yeah …

[02:18:48.636 – 02:18:50.096] dash 52." [02:18:51.352 – 02:18:51.552] Yeah. [02:18:51.552 – 02:19:01.952] But yeah, like brainstorming, like Eddie mentioned there, you know, if, if, uh, some millennial comes up or, you know, just anybody really [02:19:01.952 – 02:19:12.332] comes up, uh, that's been born in the last 50 years, uh, uh, comes up and reads the word brainstorm, we have a different concept [02:19:12.332 – 02:19:13.572] of what a brainstorm is. [02:19:13.572 – 02:19:17.232] Brainstorming is sitting around and coming up with ideas. [02:19:17.232 – 02:19:24.772] You know, it's, it's brainstorming the, you know, what are we gonna do, you know, with this problem, and we sit and we brainstorm.

[02:19:24.772 – 02:19:28.392] And of course, that's not what Bill W. meant, you know, at all. [02:19:28.392 – 02:19:31.932] What did he mean? [02:19:31.932 – 02:19:41.652] He, uh, in As B. Sees It, he defined it as, uh, that he wrote in, I guess, in the '50s. [02:19:41.652 – 02:19:44.252] You know, he wrote it and, uh, uh… [02:19:44.252 – 02:19:54.332] And when he wrote As B. Sees It, which was originally AA Way of Life, but when he, he, uh, wrote this, he actually changed some things [02:19:54.332 – 02:19:55.092] in the Big Book. [02:19:55.092 – 02:20:01.372] And, and in, you know, the things about a, a, a whoopee party.

[02:20:01.372 – 02:20:08.112] Now, that may be okay in the Roaring '20s or, you know, when Bill wrote the Big Book, you know, a whoopee party. [02:20:08.112 – 02:20:08.772] Right. [02:20:08.772 – 02:20:12.472] But, uh, you know, it sounds kind of silly nowadays. [02:20:12.472 – 02:20:18.752] And when he rewrote it, he wrote just a simple party instead of saying a, a whoopee party. [02:20:18.752 – 02:20:19.312] Mm-hmm. [02:20:19.312 – 02:20:19.812] You know? [02:20:19.812 – 02:20:27.572] And but anyway, um, he wrote, uh, he changed some of the Big Book to clarify or to change.

[02:20:27.572 – 02:20:37.932] Uh, and in brainstorm, instead of w- using the word, "The grouch and the brainstorm were not for us," in As B. Sees It you'll read, "The grouch [02:20:37.932 – 02:20:43.722] and the sudden rage were not for us." Uh, and so, so- … [02:20:43.722 – 02:20:48.842] brainstorm to Bill means that sudden rage that- Sudden rage … [02:20:48.842 – 02:20:54.772] zero to 100 in three seconds, you know, that I am quite familiar with. [02:20:54.772 – 02:20:57.562] You know, that, you know, getting… [02:20:57.562 – 02:21:06.952] And there, there's one that I particularly like, um, that h- big change, one word change that he made in the third step prayer. [02:21:06.952 – 02:21:16.952] And, uh, you know, uh, that, uh, uh, "I offer myself

[02:21:16.952 – 02:21:19.352] to Thee, to build with me and to do with me as Thou will. [02:21:19.352 – 02:21:22.872] Relieve me of the bondage of self that I may better do Thy will. [02:21:22.872 – 02:21:29.252] Take away my difficulties that transcendence over them." Oh. [02:21:29.252 – 02:21:32.372] In- instead of the word victory- Uh-huh … [02:21:32.372 – 02:21:37.341] he changed it in, uh, when he wrote it in As B. Sees It to transcendence. [02:21:37.341 – 02:21:44.132] Because there are a couple things that we just, we will never in our lives have victory over. [02:21:44.132 – 02:21:45.872] You know, like death and taxes.

[02:21:45.872 – 02:21:50.232] You know, it's, it's- You know, we… [02:21:50.232 – 02:21:55.052] There are some things that there is no victory, but there is transcendence. [02:21:55.052 – 02:21:59.192] It's getting over it, you know, and getting through it and, uh… [02:21:59.192 – 02:22:02.192] But m- yeah, there's no victory there. [02:22:02.192 – 02:22:03.132] So and he changed that. [02:22:03.132 – 02:22:06.912] I, I, I like that, uh, particular change. [02:22:06.912 – 02:22:08.912] But yeah, I'm talking too much.

[02:22:08.912 – 02:22:09.712] Uh, keep going, Ed. [02:22:09.712 – 02:22:16.172] Well, they wouldn't put, they, they, they, they wouldn't allow that in, uh, uh, at the JSO this year. [02:22:16.172 – 02:22:18.412] You know about that. [02:22:18.412 – 02:22:25.772] There will be no changes in the, um, uh, the Big Book. [02:22:25.772 – 02:22:33.212] Uh, the first hundred- That's one, that's one of the reasons why while he was alive Bill wrote the 12 and 12, and he wrote- And the 12 and 12. [02:22:33.212 – 02:22:34.392] No changes. [02:22:34.392 – 02:22:35.012] Yeah.

[02:22:35.012 – 02:22:35.312] Uh. [02:22:35.312 – 02:22:36.152] Yeah, yeah. [02:22:36.152 – 02:22:43.212] And y- that's why Bill wrote the 12 and 12, because he wanted to change things in the Big Book and they wouldn't let him. [02:22:43.212 – 02:22:44.452] Oh, well. [02:22:44.452 – 02:22:47.172] He ac- he actually wanted to go back. [02:22:47.172 – 02:22:51.092] I didn't know that w- I didn't know that was, uh, the reason he wrote the 12 and 12. [02:22:51.092 – 02:22:51.712] Well, yeah, that…

[02:22:51.712 – 02:23:00.492] If you don't think differently when you're 20 years sober- Mm-hmm … [02:23:00.492 – 02:23:06.212] than when you're three years sober, I'm thinking that maybe you need to talk to your sponsor. [02:23:06.212 – 02:23:08.912] You know, that maybe, you know? [02:23:08.912 – 02:23:15.592] And, and Bill, you know, uh, kept talking about, "Gee, our, our literature is getting frozen. [02:23:15.592 – 02:23:18.832] AA is getting frozen," and he didn't like that. [02:23:18.832 – 02:23:21.452] And he a- he actually went back earlier. [02:23:21.452 – 02:23:27.492] Uh, he went back, uh, in the early '40s, and he wanted to change…

[02:23:27.492 – 02:23:32.612] Okay, we all know that step 12 was having had a spiritual experience. [02:23:32.612 – 02:23:40.652] So then in the second printing they changed it to having had a spiritual awakening. [02:23:40.652 – 02:23:48.892] And then, uh, and then when they added the appendix two to explain the spiritual, uh, experience, blah, blah, blah. [02:23:48.892 – 02:23:50.342] But anyway, they changed it to awakening. [02:23:50.342 – 02:23:55.032] Well, in the early '40s Bill wanted to change it back to experience. [02:23:55.032 – 02:24:01.792] And, uh, h- he, uh, he told the story and, uh, uh, he wanted to change it. [02:24:01.792 – 02:24:06.502] He said, "I really liked the word experience and I wanted to change it back." Yeah.

[02:24:06.502 – 02:24:11.552] "But there was this group down there in, uh, Greenwich V., you know, these in-" [02:24:12.240 – 02:24:16.520] in intellectuals down there, and they said, "You can't change it. [02:24:16.520 – 02:24:19.160] You'll be excommunicated by God. [02:24:19.160 – 02:24:27.620] We'll, we'll throw you out of AA if you change one single word of holy writ." Wow. [02:24:27.620 – 02:24:32.340] I d- I, yeah, I d- I, I, I'm, I'm having an experience here. [02:24:32.340 – 02:24:42.460] Yeah, that's, uh, um, uh, it, it, it's really a, [02:24:42.460 – 02:24:45.920] uh, a, a, a good little, uh, a good little story.

[02:24:45.920 – 02:24:49.460] I'm, I'm gonna try and look it up here real quickly. [02:24:49.460 – 02:24:52.380] It's a little short one, but, uh- Oh, yeah, yeah. [02:24:52.380 – 02:24:54.060] I know you got it somewhere. [02:24:54.060 – 02:24:59.590] I- I've been saving things for years, you know? [02:24:59.590 – 02:25:00.580] I can tell. [02:25:00.580 – 02:25:05.880] Uh- Yeah … [02:25:05.880 – 02:25:15.980] but, uh- But it's little things like that that just add life to what it

[02:25:15.980 – 02:25:20.720] is that you're doing when you, when you're into the book, you know? [02:25:20.720 – 02:25:21.220] Uh-huh. [02:25:21.220 – 02:25:27.660] Uh, and it, it doesn't just become a piece of literature. [02:25:27.660 – 02:25:29.160] Yeah. [02:25:29.160 – 02:25:30.080] You know? [02:25:30.080 – 02:25:31.090] Yeah, yeah. [02:25:31.090 – 02:25:31.620] You say, "Oh, wow.

[02:25:31.620 – 02:25:40.250] Well, this, you know, this is the backstory to, uh, how this came about." Uh, it, it's, it, that's good stuff, right? [02:25:40.250 – 02:25:46.940] That's- I think that's why a lot of us are, guess all of us that are here, enjoy, you know, reading the Big Book. [02:25:46.940 – 02:25:48.460] Yeah, writing the Big Book. [02:25:48.460 – 02:25:48.910] Mm-hmm. [02:25:48.910 – 02:25:56.340] Uh, you know, just, uh, um, uh, because it, it's a, it's his backstory. [02:25:56.340 – 02:26:01.960] It's about how it, uh, how it really came about, you know? [02:26:01.960 – 02:26:05.640] And, uh, uh…

[02:26:05.640 – 02:26:15.920] Well, I got the story on, uh, Rule 62 and the day he lost his pants, but, uh- … [02:26:15.920 – 02:26:18.420] for some reason, I think- Well, let me ask you th- let me ask you this. [02:26:18.420 – 02:26:21.539] You are E- you are Eddie. [02:26:21.539 – 02:26:32.040] Uh, um, comparing, uh, [02:26:32.040 – 02:26:42.400] the manuscript, the original MultiLove, to, um, to, uh, Schoeberg's book, [02:26:42.400 – 02:26:49.820] what, what do you guys think, um, uh, is… [02:26:49.820 – 02:26:59.940] I'm not trying to put them on, on equal levels or one level lower than the other, but what, what would you think is,

[02:26:59.940 – 02:27:10.160] uh, uh, really most relevant if you had to put them in, uh, in a situation of priorities? [02:27:10.160 – 02:27:23.200] If- Well, of course, writing the Big Book, Bill S., you know, takes into account the, uh, um, uh, [02:27:23.200 – 02:27:26.480] you know, the, the manuscript, the original manuscript. [02:27:26.480 – 02:27:27.240] Mm-hmm. [02:27:27.240 – 02:27:28.820] Uh, among other things. [02:27:28.820 – 02:27:39.140] Of course, the original manuscript is, you know, just, uh, part of, uh, the different, uh, steps that they, [02:27:39.140 – 02:27:41.910] you know, that they got.

[02:27:41.910 – 02:27:47.680] But Bill Schoeberg, you know, includes the, uh- Yeah … [02:27:47.680 – 02:27:52.840] um, includes that in, uh, in his book. [02:27:52.840 – 02:27:57.680] So I, I don't think, I mean, I, I just think they're all included together there. [02:27:57.680 – 02:27:59.460] Okay. [02:27:59.460 – 02:28:09.600] It's not, uh- Well, well, I, I, I was gonna say also, it, it's amazing, like, it, it, it's always i- interesting to hear Bill when, when he's sharing [02:28:09.600 – 02:28:13.420] of how he found things and all that, especially, like, the, uh- Oh, yeah … [02:28:13.420 – 02:28:14.120] what, what's his name?

[02:28:14.120 – 02:28:16.860] Hank P.'s outline of the Big Book. [02:28:16.860 – 02:28:18.480] And, and boy, he tells… [02:28:18.480 – 02:28:26.020] I, I think his, I, I, I think his lady Sarah found it or something, and she goes, "Oh, Bill, Bill, you gotta come over here," or something. [02:28:26.020 – 02:28:26.220] Uh-huh. [02:28:26.220 – 02:28:26.450] Yeah. [02:28:26.450 – 02:28:27.040] Something like that, right? [02:28:27.040 – 02:28:28.960] And it's like, holy mackerel, right?

[02:28:28.960 – 02:28:39.000] But, but even just listening today, what, what he described of, like, because of that general service conference where he can't make a, they [02:28:39.000 – 02:28:47.740] can't make copies or anything like that, I mean, it's painstaking of, like, going in every day, typing e- e- 'cause you gotta get exactly what, what was written. [02:28:47.740 – 02:28:49.820] I'm thinking, wow, just amazing. [02:28:49.820 – 02:28:51.000] Like, what he described. [02:28:51.000 – 02:28:51.480] That's right. [02:28:51.480 – 02:28:51.730] Yeah. [02:28:51.730 – 02:28:56.060] Yeah, what, it, it, it was a yeoman's task to- Yeah …

[02:28:56.060 – 02:29:04.180] to do what he did, and, uh, the accomplishment, uh, uh, speaks for itself. [02:29:04.180 – 02:29:05.140] Yeah. [02:29:05.140 – 02:29:06.800] Yeah, yeah. [02:29:06.800 – 02:29:06.850] Yeah. [02:29:06.850 – 02:29:10.880] Yeah, 11 years of, uh, research and everything. [02:29:10.880 – 02:29:14.300] Yeah, that's, that's a lot of work behind there. [02:29:14.300 – 02:29:16.010] Yeah.

[02:29:16.010 – 02:29:21.960] I, I, I guess that's why he was saying, "Somebody else has to do Hank P.." Yeah. [02:29:21.960 – 02:29:22.219] Yeah. [02:29:22.219 – 02:29:22.310] Yeah, yeah. [02:29:22.310 – 02:29:25.220] But I, but I, but I think he's softening up a little bit. [02:29:25.220 – 02:29:32.050] Well, you know, speaking of Hank P., you know, I, I have heard very little discuss- [02:29:32.186 – 02:29:39.166] session, uh, in terms of his relationship with Ruth H.. [02:29:39.166 – 02:29:48.155] Well, you know, that's just, you know, salacious gossip.

[02:29:48.155 – 02:29:48.836] You know? [02:29:48.836 – 02:29:50.096] They, yeah, they had a thing. [02:29:50.096 – 02:29:51.276] And you think that's what it is? [02:29:51.276 – 02:29:52.756] Yeah. [02:29:52.756 – 02:29:53.046] They had… [02:29:53.046 – 02:29:55.236] Well, no, they had a thing, you know. [02:29:55.236 – 02:30:04.656] I mean, uh, you know, I think, uh, she, uh, she, uh, you know, dodged that bullet.

[02:30:04.656 – 02:30:13.446] And, uh, you know, she, you know, he wanted to leave his wife and marry her, and she decided that- Oh, really? [02:30:13.446 – 02:30:13.796] Mm-hmm … [02:30:13.796 – 02:30:16.856] "Nah, I don't think so." Yeah. [02:30:16.856 – 02:30:17.816] Right. [02:30:17.816 – 02:30:24.196] So yeah, I, I think they had a thing going there, but, uh, you know. [02:30:24.196 – 02:30:26.176] Yeah. [02:30:26.176 – 02:30:32.896] But, but, but I think, I think it was, what really hit it was when, when he went back out drinking and she realizes that that's it.

[02:30:32.896 – 02:30:33.316] Yep. [02:30:33.316 – 02:30:34.136] Yeah, yeah. [02:30:34.136 – 02:30:36.996] I think also that- That's the- Yeah. [02:30:36.996 – 02:30:37.615] I agree. [02:30:37.615 – 02:30:38.516] Yeah. [02:30:38.516 – 02:30:46.136] Plus the fact that, you know, he was a married man and, and, uh- Mm-hmm … [02:30:46.136 – 02:30:46.476] yeah.

[02:30:46.476 – 02:30:48.916] Yeah. [02:30:48.916 – 02:30:50.956] Question. [02:30:50.956 – 02:30:54.756] Well- Question. [02:30:54.756 – 02:30:56.136] Anyway. [02:30:56.136 – 02:30:59.916] No, Leon's saying, "Hey, he's got a question." Question, Jim. [02:30:59.916 – 02:31:00.476] Who does? [02:31:00.476 – 02:31:02.516] Leon.

[02:31:02.516 – 02:31:02.566] Leon. [02:31:02.566 – 02:31:02.586] Leon. [02:31:02.586 – 02:31:03.476] Hello, Leon. [02:31:03.476 – 02:31:04.076] Hey. [02:31:04.076 – 02:31:04.456] Welcome. [02:31:04.456 – 02:31:05.636] Go right ahead. [02:31:05.636 – 02:31:15.656] In that chapter we read, 23, we t- we, we, uh, we went over s- briefly about Ebby, Ebby T. and, uh, Bill, talking about Bill, uh, W.'s

[02:31:15.656 – 02:31:16.556] story that he wrote. [02:31:16.556 – 02:31:18.516] Uh- What? [02:31:18.516 – 02:31:19.096] What. [02:31:19.096 – 02:31:20.936] Okay. [02:31:20.936 – 02:31:23.536] When did Bill W. [02:31:23.536 – 02:31:25.996] write his story, Bill D.? [02:31:25.996 – 02:31:27.676] When did he write what?

[02:31:27.676 – 02:31:30.396] Bill, his story, in the book, in the big book. [02:31:30.396 – 02:31:32.496] Oh, his story? [02:31:32.496 – 02:31:33.056] Yeah. [02:31:33.056 – 02:31:36.296] Uh, May is when he started. [02:31:36.296 – 02:31:37.496] May of 1938. [02:31:37.496 – 02:31:41.816] That's one of the earlier chapters that we've, uh, we read. [02:31:41.816 – 02:31:43.796] Uh, and it was May.

[02:31:43.796 – 02:31:46.116] He started writing in May. [02:31:46.116 – 02:31:56.476] Uh, so he, it, in the first, uh, uh, was called A Strange O., and, uh, he wrote it [02:31:56.476 – 02:32:03.576] and, uh, then, you know, didn't like it and never used any of it, and then he started again. [02:32:03.576 – 02:32:10.116] So late May, early June of 1938 is, uh, is when he wrote his story. [02:32:10.116 – 02:32:18.496] Um, that was, that was probably the first thing he wrote, mainly because, eh, it's the easiest, you know? [02:32:18.496 – 02:32:25.376] If you, if you're a new writer and you don't know what to do, it's easier to write your own story, and that's what… [02:32:25.376 – 02:32:30.516] He wrote that and then he wrote the chap- what's now chapter two, There Is a Solution.

[02:32:30.516 – 02:32:40.956] Those were the first two chapters, and they were gonna use those two chapters as, um, you know, uh, what we would call a clickbait today, [02:32:40.956 – 02:32:41.356] you know? [02:32:41.356 – 02:32:42.346] Oh. [02:32:42.346 – 02:32:45.876] They were gonna u- They were gonna use it for promotion. [02:32:45.876 – 02:32:46.586] Yeah. [02:32:46.586 – 02:32:56.596] And, uh, you know, "Hey," you know, "send us a dollar and we'll," you know, "we'll send you two chapters." And, uh, and they printed them up, and they, they were giving them out [02:32:56.596 – 02:32:59.236] to potential donors and, and that sort of thing.

[02:32:59.236 – 02:33:03.796] So but yeah, that was around late May, uh, of 1938. [02:33:03.796 – 02:33:07.796] So is it possible it, it could, he could have got started in '37? [02:33:07.796 – 02:33:09.356] Pardon me? [02:33:09.356 – 02:33:14.716] Is it possible that he coulda got started with that story in 1937? [02:33:14.716 – 02:33:15.996] Writing it? [02:33:15.996 – 02:33:16.696] Yeah. [02:33:16.696 – 02:33:19.196] There's no record of it.

[02:33:19.196 – 02:33:20.116] Okay. [02:33:20.116 – 02:33:21.276] Yeah. [02:33:21.276 – 02:33:23.756] There, there's no- Well, we're reading they, they're missing two years. [02:33:23.756 – 02:33:25.496] They mention '37 and '38. [02:33:25.496 – 02:33:26.896] Yeah. [02:33:26.896 – 02:33:27.796] Well, they didn't. [02:33:27.796 – 02:33:37.156] Uh, it wasn't until 1937 that, uh, that, uh, you know, they had their, their meeting, you know?

[02:33:37.156 – 02:33:47.186] And, uh, I, I think what, what's, what's missing is the, you know, the first half of this book, you know, that, uh, uh, it, and, and most [02:33:47.186 – 02:33:48.956] of it, most of the information is in there. [02:33:48.956 – 02:33:57.676] It was in '37 when, uh, they had their counting noses meeting in Akron and saying, "Hey, guess what? [02:33:57.676 – 02:34:07.396] 40 drunks are sober." Now, this is two years to get 40 drunks sober, and it wasn't the same 40 drunks, you know? [02:34:07.396 – 02:34:07.976] It wasn't. [02:34:07.976 – 02:34:10.336] They were in and out, you know? [02:34:10.336 – 02:34:21.656] And, uh, so it took them up until '37 to decide, by a bare minimum of, uh, uh, 10 to 8, um, to

[02:34:21.656 – 02:34:23.916] even write a book, you know? [02:34:23.916 – 02:34:28.396] And, uh, you know, 'cause the Akron people didn't wanna have anything to do with the book. [02:34:28.396 – 02:34:34.556] Jesus didn't have a book and he didn't have an office and he didn't have any money, and we don't need any of that stuff. [02:34:34.556 – 02:34:44.556] And, um, so, uh, um- And wasn't it also true, Jim, uh, and correct me if I'm wrong, [02:34:44.556 – 02:34:50.256] uh, Don or, or Eddie or Leon, that- [02:34:53.704 – 02:35:04.664] He had his, the first version of his story was something like 36 pages long Yeah. [02:35:04.664 – 02:35:06.214] One, one of them, one of them.

[02:35:06.214 – 02:35:14.714] I don't know about 36 pages, but, uh, you know, we, we've gone, uh, we've looked at those in the earlier, in the earlier chapters. [02:35:14.714 – 02:35:16.864] Uh, we've talked about that. [02:35:16.864 – 02:35:22.904] The first one that he did in May was, uh, Strange O.. [02:35:22.904 – 02:35:26.264] And, uh, and then, uh, he, he just didn't like that. [02:35:26.264 – 02:35:36.283] He threw it all away, and then he started the one that, uh, that we actually have two, uh, versions of his story [02:35:36.284 – 02:35:41.004] that, uh, uh, are still available. [02:35:41.004 – 02:35:42.984] His, the, his first versions.

[02:35:42.984 – 02:35:53.704] His rough drafts that started off, "When I was 10 years old, my parents decided to, uh, um, uh, [02:35:53.704 – 02:35:55.544] separate." My- Separate, yeah. [02:35:55.544 – 02:35:56.464] Yeah. [02:35:56.464 – 02:35:57.944] Wow. [02:35:57.944 – 02:36:01.164] Okay. [02:36:01.164 – 02:36:02.964] Jim. [02:36:02.964 – 02:36:05.624] Jim, uh, you- Yes …

[02:36:05.624 – 02:36:16.314] yeah, you were talking there about, about little changes to wording and, uh, you know, to trans- transcend as opposed to, to, to victory over and, and that. [02:36:16.314 – 02:36:24.944] And it put me in mind of, of a, a, a quote I read somewhere where it's either rightly or wrongly attributed to Thomas M., I think. [02:36:24.944 – 02:36:35.264] Uh, "If the, if the you of five years ago doesn't consider the you of today a heretic, you're not growing, uh, spiritually." [02:36:35.264 – 02:36:45.284] Now, I don't know about the, the, me of five years ago, but there's certainly plenty of people in the fellowship over here who, who might probably think, you know, a heretic since I've started knocking around with you [02:36:45.284 – 02:36:45.664] blokes. [02:36:45.664 – 02:36:51.524] And, uh, and giving my views on, uh, on the urban myths. [02:36:51.524 – 02:36:53.524] So, uh, yeah.

[02:36:53.524 – 02:37:02.303] I th- I think as, as, as you say, we, uh, our, our consciousness and, and way of thinking as we reflect on things changes. [02:37:02.303 – 02:37:02.743] Yeah. [02:37:02.743 – 02:37:03.843] The wording changes. [02:37:03.843 – 02:37:07.104] So, so thanks very much and thanks, thanks to everyone here this morning. [02:37:07.104 – 02:37:09.304] What's, what's the doings for tomorrow morning, Jim? [02:37:09.304 – 02:37:15.224] Tomorrow, tomorrow is, um, gonna be a good one. [02:37:15.224 – 02:37:16.724] It's Patrick O'Dee- Mm …

[02:37:16.724 – 02:37:23.504] talking about the, uh, roots of, uh, can't remember the exact title, but the roots of AA. [02:37:23.504 – 02:37:26.084] Is it something like random, random something? [02:37:26.084 – 02:37:26.704] Yeah. [02:37:26.704 – 02:37:28.404] Random roots of AA. [02:37:28.404 – 02:37:28.434] Okay. [02:37:28.434 – 02:37:38.804] And going, you know, different from the Washingtonians to the Emmanuel M., to the Oxford Group, to, uh, you know, all the different, you know, random [02:37:38.804 – 02:37:44.944] roots of, um, of how, what came, came to eventually be AA.

[02:37:44.944 – 02:37:49.204] You know, how these things kind of fed into- Mm-hmm … [02:37:49.204 – 02:37:59.224] preceded, I think most of it has to do with, you know, uh, the movements, the books, the people, uh, that preceded, uh, [02:37:59.224 – 02:38:00.544] Alcoholics Anonymous. [02:38:00.544 – 02:38:01.724] Yeah. [02:38:01.724 – 02:38:07.084] I've got the- It should be Patrick- I've got the, I've got the, I've got the log on, I've got the log on card there, but I, I never, I never… [02:38:07.084 – 02:38:08.664] It's always to, like, a mystery. [02:38:08.664 – 02:38:10.704] I come along and log on and see what's happening.

[02:38:10.704 – 02:38:13.873] But, uh, yeah, I, I, that, that's, that's, that's interesting. [02:38:13.873 – 02:38:18.284] You, you don't have the, uh, you don't have the log on information? [02:38:18.284 – 02:38:19.304] Yeah. [02:38:19.304 – 02:38:22.804] I have, I have the log on information, but I never, I never know what's coming up. [02:38:22.804 – 02:38:25.584] I just log on and, uh- Oh, okay. [02:38:25.584 – 02:38:25.614] Yeah … [02:38:25.614 – 02:38:28.384] and it comes as a great surprise to me what the, what the topic is for the day.

[02:38:28.384 – 02:38:29.424] I mean, I- Yeah … [02:38:29.424 – 02:38:36.724] and, and that's interesting because, you know, Bill S. touched on it this morning with the word, uh, pragmatism. [02:38:36.724 – 02:38:37.704] Pragmatic. [02:38:37.704 – 02:38:46.304] And, uh, and, uh, even though there was, you know, that, that flying blind bit, they, uh, I, I think Dr. [02:38:46.304 – 02:38:57.144] Bob claimed that the only thing they had was a war of absolutes, but it was perhaps not so much the wording, but the, uh, actual application [02:38:57.144 – 02:38:58.864] has been, uh, has been Yeah. [02:38:58.864 – 02:39:07.904] That, that, that, you know, another, another big, um, uh, book actually that, uh, William J. wrote is called Pragmatism.

[02:39:07.904 – 02:39:15.044] And, uh, you know, that was, uh, you know, Bill was, whether he read it or not, I don't know. [02:39:15.044 – 02:39:21.124] I've never, uh, come across any, anything that said Bill read the book. [02:39:21.124 – 02:39:23.504] You know, lots of people- Yeah. [02:39:23.504 – 02:39:23.714] I- … [02:39:23.714 – 02:39:30.584] doubt, doubt that he even read Varieties of Origin- Religious E., you know, 'cause it's kind of a heavy book. [02:39:30.584 – 02:39:39.264] But, uh, um- And they, they recommend you read that, that you don't try to start at the beginning of Varieties of Religious E.. [02:39:39.264 – 02:39:42.904] Well, yeah, I, yeah, I, I, I don't either.

[02:39:42.904 – 02:39:51.624] You know, it's start with, just read where it says, go to the eight, I think it's the eighth chapter on conversion, you know, and, and it'll make a little more sense. [02:39:51.624 – 02:39:52.224] Yeah. [02:39:52.224 – 02:39:52.484] You know? [02:39:52.484 – 02:39:55.013] But yeah, he gets, he's kind of- Yeah … [02:39:55.013 – 02:39:55.634] kind of heavy. [02:39:55.634 – 02:39:58.324] But anyway, he, he did write a book on pragmatism. [02:39:58.324 – 02:40:08.564] And, um, um, i- if, uh, yeah, I'll, let me get in a, you know, a, an infomercial here on,

[02:40:08.564 – 02:40:09.434] uh- Sure … [02:40:09.434 – 02:40:12.664] I, I, I do have, uh, s- him included in, uh- [02:40:14.040 – 02:40:21.140] In my presentation on June 10th, the Friday J. 10th, on, uh, the New Thought movement and AA. [02:40:21.140 – 02:40:21.670] Oh. [02:40:21.670 – 02:40:28.860] And how, how, uh, how AA and the New Thought movement, um, are connected. [02:40:28.860 – 02:40:38.940] And, uh, the connection is, is just, uh, really important because, uh, what happened was from what I know [02:40:38.940 – 02:40:48.960] of, uh, of, of AA history is that AA dumped the Oxford Group and basically picked up,

[02:40:48.960 – 02:40:57.580] uh, all of the New Thought, not all of the New Thought, but most of New Thought, uh, ideas. [02:40:57.580 – 02:40:59.680] And of course starting off with Emmet F.. [02:40:59.680 – 02:41:04.260] Well, how- Uh, and Bill- How, how, I'm sorry. [02:41:04.260 – 02:41:06.280] How are you defining New Thought? [02:41:06.280 – 02:41:08.780] New Thought is the name of a movement. [02:41:08.780 – 02:41:10.920] I mean, it's not just new thinking. [02:41:10.920 – 02:41:14.240] It's the na- it's the official name of a movement.

[02:41:14.240 – 02:41:20.460] And, um, and it was started off by, uh, you know, a lot of different people. [02:41:20.460 – 02:41:26.500] But it goes back, it to, uh, in, in the United States in the 1800s. [02:41:26.500 – 02:41:35.860] You know, Ralph W. Emerson and, and, uh, you know, uh, some of these other people that, uh, uh… [02:41:35.860 – 02:41:38.600] I've got a whole hour presentation on it. [02:41:38.600 – 02:41:39.980] I'll, I'll be there. [02:41:39.980 – 02:41:40.840] I'll be there. [02:41:40.840 – 02:41:43.360] Anyway, but if you- I thought I'd get you to cheat first.

[02:41:43.360 – 02:41:47.120] Well, you know, there, there's a, there's a lot of these people. [02:41:47.120 – 02:41:57.300] You know, two weeks before he went to, uh, T. Hospital the last time, Bill was, uh, rereading, um, uh, [02:41:57.300 – 02:41:58.640] what's the name of her book? [02:41:58.640 – 02:42:00.970] Uh, the, uh… [02:42:00.970 – 02:42:05.160] oh, the Christian S., uh, Mary B. Eddy. [02:42:05.160 – 02:42:05.780] Mm. [02:42:05.780 – 02:42:07.280] Uh, the Christian S. lady.

[02:42:07.280 – 02:42:10.860] Uh, the name of her book is, ah, can't… [02:42:10.860 – 02:42:12.700] brain fog. [02:42:12.700 – 02:42:15.620] Uh, but anyway, he was rereading her book. [02:42:15.620 – 02:42:23.640] You know, Christian S., it's the, it's the idea that, you know, your thoughts are in control. [02:42:23.640 – 02:42:28.400] The s- the, i- it's the, the spiritual that controls the, uh, the physical. [02:42:28.400 – 02:42:38.740] You know, that I can, and not necessarily, most of them did not really believe that, uh, you know, if you have positive [02:42:38.740 – 02:42:42.800] thinking, you know, you can cure being an amputee, you know.

[02:42:42.800 – 02:42:44.220] Or, uh, you know. [02:42:44.220 – 02:42:54.500] But, uh, you know, some of them thought that they could, uh, you know, they used Christian S. and but the others thought of it as scientific thought. [02:42:54.500 – 02:43:04.580] And, uh, and, and using the metaphysics, uh, and, uh, using the teachings of Jesus, but [02:43:04.580 – 02:43:10.800] also the teachings of, uh, Buddha and, and, uh, and other great teachers of the time. [02:43:10.800 – 02:43:19.720] And a lot of New Thought, uh, came into AA, particularly in the '40s. [02:43:19.720 – 02:43:22.220] The book, uh- Hmm. [02:43:22.220 – 02:43:26.420] The book- I, I, I- Emmet F.'s book, The Sermon on the Mount.

[02:43:26.420 – 02:43:27.840] E- Eddy, go ahead. [02:43:27.840 – 02:43:29.640] No, no, I was gonna say. [02:43:29.640 – 02:43:35.900] The, the Mary B. Eddy book is Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. [02:43:35.900 – 02:43:37.420] Yeah, that's it. [02:43:37.420 – 02:43:38.200] Yeah. [02:43:38.200 – 02:43:38.420] Yeah. [02:43:38.420 – 02:43:39.920] That, that was, that was her book.

[02:43:39.920 – 02:43:42.840] And Bill was rereading that two weeks before, you know. [02:43:42.840 – 02:43:45.240] So, so he was familiar with this stuff. [02:43:45.240 – 02:43:53.560] And, uh, Emmett F. came out with the ser- the, his book, The Sermon on the Mount in, um, in 1934. [02:43:53.560 – 02:43:55.180] '34. [02:43:55.180 – 02:43:55.920] Oh. [02:43:55.920 – 02:43:56.140] Mm. [02:43:56.140 – 02:43:59.280] Um, and, uh, when Dr.

[02:43:59.280 – 02:44:09.280] Bob broke, finally broke from the Oxford Group in 1939, December of 1939, he, uh, he left the [02:44:09.280 – 02:44:11.960] Oxford Group meetings with, uh, T. [02:44:11.960 – 02:44:14.800] Henry and, and, uh, his wife Clarisse. [02:44:14.800 – 02:44:15.520] Wow. [02:44:15.520 – 02:44:24.560] And, uh, and they went and they took all the alcoholics over to his house, and they started the, uh, uh, an alcoholics-only meeting in Dr. [02:44:24.560 – 02:44:25.580] Bob's house. [02:44:25.580 – 02:44:26.660] Mm.

[02:44:26.660 – 02:44:33.120] And, uh, he, uh, i- in an article in the 1951 Grapevine about Dr. [02:44:33.120 – 02:44:43.400] Bob, it says, uh, "At that meeting," uh, which would be the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous in, of all alcoholics [02:44:43.400 – 02:44:45.200] in Akron, "Dr. [02:44:45.200 – 02:44:55.200] Bob stood up, put his foot on a rung of a chair, identified himself as an alcoholic, and started reading from [02:44:55.200 – 02:44:57.760] the book, The Sermon on the Mount." Wow. [02:44:57.760 – 02:44:58.040] Right. [02:44:58.040 – 02:45:02.820] Sermon on the Mount- But- The Sermon on the Mount has nothing to do with the Oxford Group.

[02:45:02.820 – 02:45:05.820] It has to do with the New Thought movement. [02:45:05.820 – 02:45:06.429] Okay. [02:45:06.429 – 02:45:06.840] You know? [02:45:06.840 – 02:45:07.860] And yeah. [02:45:07.860 – 02:45:08.880] Two questions. [02:45:08.880 – 02:45:09.980] Two questions. [02:45:09.980 – 02:45:17.910] Would you, uh, consider, uh, Scientologists, that group- No.

[02:45:17.910 – 02:45:18.620] No, no, no … [02:45:18.620 – 02:45:19.240] with the New Thought? [02:45:19.240 – 02:45:20.030] No. [02:45:20.030 – 02:45:21.140] Uh, second question. [02:45:21.140 – 02:45:21.480] No, not at all. [02:45:21.480 – 02:45:23.560] What about Clarence S.? [02:45:23.560 – 02:45:27.640] Was C. Snyder still with Bill at that time?

[02:45:27.640 – 02:45:29.960] I mean Bob, at that time. [02:45:29.960 – 02:45:33.280] Uh, Clarence S.- The Williams, uh- [02:45:33.468 – 02:45:37.668] Aaron S. had already broken away from, from the Akron group. [02:45:37.668 – 02:45:37.798] Dr. [02:45:37.798 – 02:45:42.408] Bob broke away from the Akron group in December of 1939. [02:45:42.408 – 02:45:52.648] Clarence had broken away on May 11th, uh, of, uh, 1939, the month after the, uh, Big Book was published. [02:45:52.648 – 02:46:00.488] He came out and, uh, started, uh, the first AA meeting because it was called A Meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[02:46:00.488 – 02:46:10.788] He had the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, and, uh, he started the meeting, and it was called A Meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, and that was in May of 1939. [02:46:10.788 – 02:46:19.228] And, uh, but then, uh, you know, Clarence, uh, uh, they, they came out with, uh… [02:46:19.228 – 02:46:22.188] They started off the… [02:46:22.188 – 02:46:27.388] I, I, I did a presentation on Monday about the, uh, A- Akron pamphlets. [02:46:27.388 – 02:46:28.148] Mm. [02:46:28.148 – 02:46:33.128] And the Akron pamphlets, uh, are, were published in 1939, 1940. [02:46:33.128 – 02:46:43.268] The first, uh, time that they were published, the four absolutes were included in that pamphlet that Dr.

[02:46:43.268 – 02:46:44.968] Bob's group, uh, put out. [02:46:44.968 – 02:46:50.768] Uh, a- in later editions, the four absolutes were not included. [02:46:50.768 – 02:47:00.768] And, uh, even Clarence in, uh, uh, in Akron started using the four absolutes and, [02:47:00.768 – 02:47:02.268] and a lot of them still do. [02:47:02.268 – 02:47:12.808] Uh, but they changed the definition considerably from what the Oxford Group definitions of the four absolutes were. [02:47:12.808 – 02:47:14.138] Uh, they became much more… [02:47:14.138 – 02:47:24.628] You know, imagine, you know, you're in a m- you're in a, in a meeting and, uh, some guy walks in and, uh,

[02:47:24.628 – 02:47:27.888] you know, wants to know what is this AA about. [02:47:27.888 – 02:47:31.608] And you tell him, "Okay." And this is what they did. [02:47:31.608 – 02:47:34.288] They s- they went and they said, "Okay. [02:47:34.288 – 02:47:36.918] Now, do you wanna quit drinking? [02:47:36.918 – 02:47:37.908] Okay. [02:47:37.908 – 02:47:48.208] All you have to do is commit yourself to be absolutely unselfish, absolutely pure, absolutely, [02:47:48.208 – 02:47:56.748] you know, loving, and absolutely honest." And the guy thinks, "Well, I don't know.

[02:47:56.748 – 02:47:58.508] Let me get a drink and think it over," you know? [02:47:58.508 – 02:48:05.688] I mean, I mean, uh, uh, it just, uh, and, uh, but they, that they changed it. [02:48:05.688 – 02:48:07.548] They changed the definitions of them. [02:48:07.548 – 02:48:12.128] Yeah, purity became, uh, purity or simplicity of thought. [02:48:12.128 – 02:48:18.088] Uh, you know, and, uh, uh, they, they modified it. [02:48:18.088 – 02:48:22.628] And they got out and, and they started getting into more… [02:48:22.628 – 02:48:33.088] And the, and the preachers, priests and preachers that, uh, supported AA in the beginning were far, far,

[02:48:33.088 – 02:48:35.928] far from fundamentalist preachers. [02:48:35.928 – 02:48:39.248] They were, you know, rebels in their day. [02:48:39.248 – 02:48:47.098] Uh, um, Foster, um, uh, F., you know, he'd been kicked- Yes … [02:48:47.098 – 02:48:48.568] out of a church before. [02:48:48.568 – 02:48:55.408] And, and, uh, you know, he became, uh, Riverside C. pastor for R.. [02:48:55.408 – 02:49:05.648] And, uh, the guy Dilworth, uh, Upton in Cleveland, Dilworth U., uh, told Clarence's wife, [02:49:05.648 – 02:49:12.517] he said, "If C. goes to the Oxford Group, I'm not gonna have anything to do with him." Mm.

[02:49:12.517 – 02:49:17.998] "Because the Ox- anybody who gets involved with the Oxford Group is gonna fail." Wow. [02:49:17.998 – 02:49:21.968] And, uh, you know, he was very much against the Oxford Group. [02:49:21.968 – 02:49:22.558] Mm-hmm. [02:49:22.558 – 02:49:32.568] And, uh, and told, uh, uh, Clarence, and, and of course, Clarence went over to him, gave him an interview, and, uh, Upton, uh, preached a sermon and [02:49:32.568 – 02:49:34.088] it turned into a pamphlet. [02:49:34.088 – 02:49:35.158] Wow. [02:49:35.158 – 02:49:36.498] You know, the interview with Mr.

[02:49:36.498 – 02:49:37.128] X. [02:49:37.128 – 02:49:44.688] Uh, and the, and, and Dilworth U. was a, was a UU minister, and we know what all the, what they're all about, you know. [02:49:44.688 – 02:49:47.448] They're about the most, uh, you… [02:49:47.448 – 02:49:48.138] What are they? [02:49:48.138 – 02:49:55.668] Uh, universal, uh, you know, the Universalists, you know, and, and they're very liberal. [02:49:55.668 – 02:50:04.448] They're very liberal- Well, did that have, that, that have anything to do with, uh, the dispute around, uh, Catholicism? [02:50:04.448 – 02:50:06.288] Well, yeah.

[02:50:06.288 – 02:50:16.668] I mean, that, that was the big reason, the number one reason why Cl- their, uh, Clarence wanted to break away, you know, was because he had a lot of Catholics, [02:50:16.668 – 02:50:22.377] uh, there in Cleveland, and the church didn't want them going to- Mm … [02:50:22.377 – 02:50:24.348] Protestant O. Group meetings. [02:50:24.348 – 02:50:31.908] The Oxford Group supposedly was non-denominational, but it was non-denominational Protestant, you know? [02:50:31.908 – 02:50:41.058] And, uh, and, uh, you know, they used the King J. Version of the Bible, uh, which Catholics were not allowed to use. [02:50:41.058 – 02:50:45.028] They, they used the Protestant version of the Our F.. [02:50:45.028 – 02:50:49.928] They u- you know, everything was very Protestant, uh, oriented.

[02:50:49.928 – 02:50:53.768] And, uh, and they, they, they were sharing, uh- [02:50:54.354 – 02:50:56.064] uh, doing their confession in meetings. [02:50:56.064 – 02:51:01.604] And, uh, and the priests didn't like that, you know, taking their job away. [02:51:01.604 – 02:51:05.744] And, uh, a- and so the priests there in Cleveland said, "No, you can't do this. [02:51:05.744 – 02:51:10.554] You know, you can't keep going there." And so, uh, Clarence told, uh, Dr. [02:51:10.554 – 02:51:11.684] Bob that, and Dr. [02:51:11.684 – 02:51:14.444] Bob said, "We can't do anything about it.

[02:51:14.444 – 02:51:15.044] You know? [02:51:15.044 – 02:51:18.884] E- either, you know, we're not keeping them out of, uh… [02:51:18.884 – 02:51:26.843] You know, their church is keeping them out." And, uh, he told Clarence to go see if he could change the church's mind. [02:51:26.843 – 02:51:30.364] You know, yeah, you're gonna change the church's mind. [02:51:30.364 – 02:51:32.324] Anyway, that, that… [02:51:32.324 – 02:51:33.324] You know. [02:51:33.324 – 02:51:43.324] And so Clarence finally said, you know, uh, "We're gonna, we're gonna break away from all of the rigmarole," is the word he used, the rigmarole for that-

[02:51:43.324 – 02:51:43.854] that- … [02:51:43.854 – 02:51:45.203] offensive to people. [02:51:45.203 – 02:51:47.404] And, uh, and he did. [02:51:47.404 – 02:51:48.044] You know? [02:51:48.044 – 02:51:55.524] He, he started his meeting and, uh, the, you know, the idea was to be… [02:51:55.524 – 02:52:01.583] not to have too much of the spiritual stuff in the meetings, you know? [02:52:01.583 – 02:52:04.864] That was the other question I wa- I wanted to ask you.

[02:52:04.864 – 02:52:15.164] I thought it was New York that leaned heavily on the psychological, uh, approach, and that it was Akron [02:52:15.164 – 02:52:19.984] that led more towards the spiritual approach to recovery. [02:52:19.984 – 02:52:23.223] That, that is what we have all learned. [02:52:23.223 – 02:52:23.724] Okay. [02:52:23.724 – 02:52:27.764] And, uh, but nothing is, uh, black and white. [02:52:27.764 – 02:52:28.414] Yeah. [02:52:28.414 – 02:52:28.744] You know?

[02:52:28.744 – 02:52:30.044] Nothing is right and wrong. [02:52:30.044 – 02:52:30.184] Right. [02:52:30.184 – 02:52:36.404] And there were, you know, it's just like, uh, uh, things were, uh… [02:52:36.404 – 02:52:41.964] there were shades of gray, and there were people in this group that believed that, and in this group. [02:52:41.964 – 02:52:43.344] And, uh, Dr. [02:52:43.344 – 02:52:46.264] Bob, of course, was very spiritual, but he had a library. [02:52:46.264 – 02:52:48.244] Um, I think, uh, Dick B.

[02:52:48.244 – 02:52:51.844] has a book that he put out about all of the- He does … [02:52:51.844 – 02:52:53.924] all of the book, books in Dr. [02:52:53.924 – 02:52:55.104] Bob's library. [02:52:55.104 – 02:52:55.534] Right. [02:52:55.534 – 02:52:57.564] And I mean, you talk about eclectic. [02:52:57.564 – 02:53:00.344] I mean, he collected everything, you know? [02:53:00.344 – 02:53:03.104] Of course, nothing worked until he found AA.

[02:53:03.104 – 02:53:03.803] Right. [02:53:03.803 – 02:53:05.924] But, uh, you know, he had all his… [02:53:05.924 – 02:53:10.364] And, and then afterwards, he was, uh, he was very big on a, on a lot of things. [02:53:10.364 – 02:53:17.504] Uh, but you know, we also hear about, uh, a, a lot of different things, you know. [02:53:17.504 – 02:53:26.924] Uh, Akron was very spiritual, and New York, uh, you know, was very secular, mundane, psychological, you know? [02:53:26.924 – 02:53:32.084] And, uh, you know, there was, uh, spirituality going on in New York. [02:53:32.084 – 02:53:40.564] And, uh, and there were people who, who wanted to break away from a lot of the spirituality in Akron, you know?

[02:53:40.564 – 02:53:43.624] And it, it, it was not just either/or. [02:53:43.624 – 02:53:45.264] Um- Right. [02:53:45.264 – 02:53:45.924] Dan, yeah. [02:53:45.924 – 02:53:48.474] Well, you know- It is Dan … [02:53:48.474 – 02:53:49.824] gentlemen, if I could interrupt. [02:53:49.824 – 02:53:50.424] Oh. [02:53:50.424 – 02:53:52.684] Oh, uh- Oh, someone had their hand up.

[02:53:52.684 – 02:53:53.784] I'm sorry, I didn't see it. [02:53:53.784 – 02:53:54.384] That's all right. [02:53:54.384 – 02:53:55.324] Then we'll go to Dan. [02:53:55.324 – 02:53:55.764] You're all right, Masha. [02:53:55.764 – 02:53:56.184] Go ahead. [02:53:56.184 – 02:53:58.964] Well, um, I just- Go ahead, Masha. [02:53:58.964 – 02:53:59.343] Thank you.

[02:53:59.343 – 02:53:59.944] Go ahead. [02:53:59.944 – 02:54:00.984] This has been a good discussion. [02:54:00.984 – 02:54:10.644] I just wanted to say that, uh, The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet F., was one of the cornerstones of my recovery. [02:54:10.644 – 02:54:18.764] Uh, it was something that was very highly read, uh, in my area in Detroit, uh, by the elders. [02:54:18.764 – 02:54:24.324] And, uh, and I began to read that right away, as well as his other books. [02:54:24.324 – 02:54:34.564] Uh, I regarded it as, uh, because, particularly because I regarded myself as an agnostic at best, [02:54:34.564 – 02:54:37.184] and even called myself an atheist also.

[02:54:37.184 – 02:54:41.234] It was a kind of a portal back- Mm-hmm … [02:54:41.234 – 02:54:46.433] into an acceptance of, uh, religious thinking. [02:54:46.433 – 02:54:50.364] Uh, and when I say religious thinking, I do mean that literally. [02:54:50.364 – 02:54:55.644] Um, uh, of course, uh, it, it ended up being spiritual. [02:54:55.644 – 02:54:56.964] Mm-hmm. [02:54:56.964 – 02:54:57.464] Yeah. [02:54:57.464 – 02:55:06.764] But the form that it took, uh, through those books, you know, was a kind of a biblically centered spirituality.

[02:55:06.764 – 02:55:10.624] Uh, and I love Emmet F. to this day. [02:55:10.624 – 02:55:15.704] Um, even with its kind of old fashioned kind of corniness, you know. [02:55:15.704 – 02:55:20.424] Uh, I, I just bought, I just bought another copy of Sermon on the Mount, you know, recently. [02:55:20.424 – 02:55:21.964] Uh, I really love that book. [02:55:21.964 – 02:55:26.804] And, uh, so, uh, I was just listening with interest, uh, you're talking about… [02:55:26.804 – 02:55:37.304] See, this was a powerful period in history, uh, in which, uh, uh, the American populace, so many were seeking, uh, [02:55:37.304 – 02:55:44.793] religious succor outside of, uh, traditional religious, uh- Mm.

[02:55:44.793 – 02:55:46.124] uh, avenues. [02:55:46.124 – 02:55:46.734] Yeah. [02:55:46.734 – 02:55:52.224] And were attempting to find all manner of things, of even of spiritualists. [02:55:52.224 – 02:55:52.834] Yeah. [02:55:52.834 – 02:55:54.864] Uh, in the late 1800s. [02:55:54.864 – 02:55:59.144] You know, Madame LeBlaski and people like this that were spiritualists. [02:55:59.144 – 02:55:59.654] Mm-hmm.

[02:55:59.654 – 02:56:06.874] And, uh, they were trying to find some other, um, you know, uh, ways of reckoning with- Mm … [02:56:06.874 – 02:56:10.304] uh, spiritual matters, uh, during that period of time. [02:56:10.304 – 02:56:12.764] But Emmet Fox was just, you know, one of those. [02:56:12.764 – 02:56:13.564] So thank you. [02:56:13.564 – 02:56:14.164] I didn't want to s- [02:56:14.652 – 02:56:15.652] Yeah, absolutely. [02:56:15.652 – 02:56:18.552] Um, I, I got a follow-up question for you, Marsha.

[02:56:18.552 – 02:56:20.442] Wait, wait, wait, Azell. [02:56:20.442 – 02:56:20.992] But, Dan. [02:56:20.992 – 02:56:22.292] Dan, sir. [02:56:22.292 – 02:56:22.672] We have… [02:56:22.672 – 02:56:24.952] Uh, Azell, we have hands up. [02:56:24.952 – 02:56:25.442] No, that's what I was gonna say. [02:56:25.442 – 02:56:27.872] Marsha was talking, then it's gonna be Dan.

[02:56:27.872 – 02:56:28.612] Right. [02:56:28.612 – 02:56:30.531] When M.'s finished, then it's Dan. [02:56:30.531 – 02:56:31.252] I'm done. [02:56:31.252 – 02:56:31.592] Uh-huh. [02:56:31.592 – 02:56:32.632] Okay. [02:56:32.632 – 02:56:33.452] And, and now it… [02:56:33.452 – 02:56:36.472] And, uh, and now it's, now it's gonna be me.

[02:56:36.472 – 02:56:37.292] Anyway. [02:56:37.292 – 02:56:42.672] Uh, just to follow up on what Marsha's saying before we go to Dan. [02:56:42.672 – 02:56:46.812] This is, uh, uh, giving a, a sneak peek here. [02:56:46.812 – 02:56:47.392] Oh. [02:56:47.392 – 02:56:50.932] "The message of the Sermon on the Mount was simple and appealing to those- Mm-hmm … [02:56:50.932 – 02:56:55.541] struggling for answers outside the dogma of traditional religion- Mm-hmm … [02:56:55.541 – 02:56:57.012] which had failed alcoholics.

[02:56:57.012 – 02:56:57.401] Mm-hmm. [02:56:57.401 – 02:57:07.372] It sets out Fox's view that the Bible is merely a textbook of metaphysics, a manual for the growth of the soul." And, and it was big in, uh, in New York too. [02:57:07.372 – 02:57:09.372] They would go- Okay … [02:57:09.372 – 02:57:15.152] Bill and, Bill and his people would go to, uh, to hear, uh, Emmet F. talk at the Hippodrome. [02:57:15.152 – 02:57:17.262] And, uh- Mm … [02:57:17.262 – 02:57:18.472] I mean, they, they would… [02:57:18.472 – 02:57:20.352] They went to Emmet F.'s.

[02:57:20.352 – 02:57:20.792] They, they… [02:57:20.792 – 02:57:22.292] That was big there too. [02:57:22.292 – 02:57:24.052] So anyway. [02:57:24.052 – 02:57:24.671] Okay. [02:57:24.671 – 02:57:25.632] But yeah. [02:57:25.632 – 02:57:28.092] Oh, no, he was, he was big everywhere, and still is. [02:57:28.092 – 02:57:30.031] I have his au- I have him on audiobook.

[02:57:30.031 – 02:57:32.012] What? [02:57:32.012 – 02:57:33.882] Yeah, I have it on audiobook. [02:57:33.882 – 02:57:34.262] Do you listen to it? [02:57:34.262 – 02:57:36.952] That way I can, uh, listen to it when I'm driving. [02:57:36.952 – 02:57:38.692] Oh my goodness. [02:57:38.692 – 02:57:40.031] Oh, I didn't know that he… [02:57:40.031 – 02:57:46.872] I didn't think about him being alive during the period of recordings, but obviously he would've been.

[02:57:46.872 – 02:57:47.332] Yeah. [02:57:47.332 – 02:57:47.872] Yeah, but it… [02:57:47.872 – 02:57:48.032] Yeah. [02:57:48.032 – 02:57:51.752] But it, it, it's, it's The Sermon on the Mount, but it's the audiobook. [02:57:51.752 – 02:57:53.292] You know, somebody reads- Mm-hmm … [02:57:53.292 – 02:57:53.752] yeah. [02:57:53.752 – 02:57:55.012] But I- Okay.

[02:57:55.012 – 02:57:56.311] Anyway, Dan, go ahead. [02:57:56.311 – 02:57:58.692] Yeah. [02:57:58.692 – 02:57:59.312] Thanks, Jim. [02:57:59.312 – 02:58:00.052] Yeah. [02:58:00.052 – 02:58:10.072] And, and that, uh, you know, w- the, that, uh, term contempt prior to investigation gets a lot of air play, uh, around the fellowship. [02:58:10.072 – 02:58:20.152] And, and, and the thing that bothered me, it, it would cause me a bit of trouble, you know, I'm, I'm not that old in the program, but, uh, is prejudice [02:58:20.152 – 02:58:22.632] due to previous, uh, programming.

[02:58:22.632 – 02:58:30.062] And I'd heard a lot about William J., and, you know, he was dour and, you know, oh, it was a hard read and all the rest of it. [02:58:30.062 – 02:58:33.912] And, uh, you know, there's, there's a humorous side to him. [02:58:33.912 – 02:58:44.392] And, uh, I, I love, uh, that, uh, that, uh, statement of his from [02:58:44.392 – 02:58:49.572] Rationality, Activity and Faith, "Believe and you shall be right, for you shall save yourself. [02:58:49.572 – 02:58:51.892] Doubt, you shall again be right, for you'll perish. [02:58:51.892 – 02:59:00.112] The only difference is that to believe is greatly to your advantage." And, uh, and that, and that, that appeals in a way. [02:59:00.112 – 02:59:02.052] And that's, that's, uh- Was that Jim?

[02:59:02.052 – 02:59:02.492] Yeah. [02:59:02.492 – 02:59:06.592] That is pure new thought, new thought movement, uh, things. [02:59:06.592 – 02:59:07.452] And, and, and that's… [02:59:07.452 – 02:59:17.452] As a result of that, I was, I was just roaming around through a little, uh, Salvation A. thrift shop, and I saw a little book called, uh, [02:59:17.452 – 02:59:24.962] Find and Use Y. Inner P., or Sparks of Truth, written by Emmet F. in, uh, 1870. [02:59:24.962 – 02:59:27.112] And, and he's got a bit of humor to him too. [02:59:27.112 – 02:59:29.112] And, uh, and there's…

[02:59:29.112 – 02:59:37.032] They're little one-page skits or two-page skits, but, uh, in one of his summaries is, uh, is, uh… [02:59:37.032 – 02:59:38.992] What's it called? [02:59:38.992 – 02:59:41.171] The, uh… [02:59:41.171 – 02:59:42.832] Just give me half a tick. [02:59:42.832 – 02:59:46.932] The Moron Club, Prominent M.. [02:59:46.932 – 02:59:52.732] And, uh, and, uh, i- i- in, in one of the… [02:59:52.732 – 02:59:56.552] In one line from it says, uh, "Leave something for God to do.

[02:59:56.552 – 03:00:06.512] If y- if you hadn't have been born, the world would've gotten on somehow without you." And, you know, like when… [03:00:06.512 – 03:00:11.472] If I couldn't have found any humor in this, this being sober, it, it would not have appealed to me. [03:00:11.472 – 03:00:13.922] And, uh, and I, and I think that- Right … [03:00:13.922 – 03:00:17.252] that comes, comes along as, uh, as, as we go. [03:00:17.252 – 03:00:18.092] But yeah. [03:00:18.092 – 03:00:20.152] Uh, have, have you read that little book, Jim? [03:00:20.152 – 03:00:22.932] That Find and Use Y. Inner P. by Emmet F.?

[03:00:22.932 – 03:00:23.712] It… [03:00:23.712 – 03:00:24.742] What's the name of it? [03:00:24.742 – 03:00:31.092] The name of it, it apparently it must have had an earlier title. [03:00:31.092 – 03:00:37.612] It's Find and Use Y. Inner P., or, in brackets after that, Sparks of Truth. [03:00:37.612 – 03:00:39.832] And I think it was first published as Sparks of Truth. [03:00:39.832 – 03:00:42.172] I, I've heard of those books. [03:00:42.172 – 03:00:42.282] TSA 1878.

[03:00:42.282 – 03:00:44.302] I have- Harper and Bro- And- … [03:00:44.302 – 03:00:45.092] Harper and Brothers … [03:00:45.092 – 03:00:49.062] I, I, I haven't, I haven't read them, but I, I've heard, I've heard of them. [03:00:49.062 – 03:00:51.792] Oh, that was a neat find at the Salvation A., right? [03:00:51.792 – 03:00:53.672] Yeah, 50 cents. [03:00:53.672 – 03:00:55.052] Wow. [03:00:55.052 – 03:00:55.931] And, and, and although…

[03:00:55.931 – 03:00:58.552] And I'm not the only one that, that's read it, naturally enough. [03:00:58.552 – 03:00:59.712] It's been handed around. [03:00:59.712 – 03:01:00.732] Yeah. [03:01:00.732 – 03:01:01.162] See you sometime. [03:01:01.162 – 03:01:01.492] Great. [03:01:01.492 – 03:01:04.052] All right, back to Azell. [03:01:04.052 – 03:01:06.112] Okay.

[03:01:06.112 – 03:01:16.692] I was gonna ask you, Marsha, if you felt that there was some, uh, that, uh, there is a resurgence on [03:01:16.692 – 03:01:26.642] a broad scale based on what's going on in society today, um, uh, the type of involvement, uh, on the sp- An assert- … [03:01:26.642 – 03:01:28.412] on the spiritual level. [03:01:28.412 – 03:01:34.632] A resurgence of what you w- what you were talking about [03:01:35.528 – 03:01:41.048] Um, no, I don't think so You don't think so? [03:01:41.048 – 03:01:41.218] Okay. [03:01:41.218 – 03:01:41.268] Mm-mm.

[03:01:41.268 – 03:01:45.728] But I, I wouldn't expound on it anyway because those would… [03:01:45.728 – 03:01:54.928] That would be an outside issue, um, regarding, um, uh, s- spirituality as a whole in society. [03:01:54.928 – 03:01:56.548] It's really an outside issue. [03:01:56.548 – 03:02:06.908] Uh, but, uh, I think within AA, uh, there is a desire, particularly in the Zoom generation, [03:02:06.908 – 03:02:17.248] because you're grow- you have a, a generation now of AAs that are disconnected from in-person contact- Mm [03:02:17.248 – 03:02:17.268] … [03:02:17.268 – 03:02:27.348] and the kind of real, uh, intense, uh, engagement with AA that we had coming up.

[03:02:27.348 – 03:02:37.668] And, um, and, and, and they're just isolated in these screens, and I think many of them have a desire for more, [03:02:37.668 – 03:02:47.328] and many of them are looking for, uh, other things that they can read, other things that they can get into. [03:02:47.328 – 03:02:49.638] Uh, because when you say- Mm … [03:02:49.638 – 03:03:00.008] "Don't drink, go to meetings," for somebody that's sitting behind a screen it just doesn't have the same impact to some degree as it meant for [03:03:00.008 – 03:03:09.488] us that had to get out, get in our car, shovel snow, get to the meeting, you know, make the coffee, do all that. [03:03:09.488 – 03:03:11.788] You know, some people lay in the bed and go to the meeting. [03:03:11.788 – 03:03:14.568] They don't even make enough effort to sit up out the bed, you know?

[03:03:14.568 – 03:03:19.248] So, you know, and I'm not talking about those that may be ill. [03:03:19.248 – 03:03:23.128] I'm not talking about that, or, or, or, or, or, you know. [03:03:23.128 – 03:03:33.348] But I, I'm saying that, you know, there's many who have some desire to learn, and that's why these meetings that we're in, uh, you know, [03:03:33.348 – 03:03:36.298] the, the Writing the Big Book meeting and, uh- Mm-hmm … [03:03:36.298 – 03:03:45.368] H. E's meet, that's why they're so huge, because there is a desire to learn more about this program, you know? [03:03:45.368 – 03:03:47.408] Uh, and, you know, 'cause when I… [03:03:47.408 – 03:03:57.508] I came in in 1987, so I've been sober 34 and a half, you know, years, but I'm still a baby to, to, compared to others, you know.

[03:03:57.508 – 03:04:07.908] But, um, um, when I came in, I came in, like, you know, I, I was told to read and reread, [03:04:07.908 – 03:04:09.068] you know? [03:04:09.068 – 03:04:12.848] So I wanted to read everything I could about the program. [03:04:12.848 – 03:04:13.768] Everything. [03:04:13.768 – 03:04:14.038] Mm. [03:04:14.038 – 03:04:15.978] You know, the Not G., and Dr. [03:04:15.978 – 03:04:18.758] Bob and the Good O. Timers, and- Yeah, yeah …

[03:04:18.758 – 03:04:20.628] you know, all those corny books. [03:04:20.628 – 03:04:21.628] I loved them. [03:04:21.628 – 03:04:23.688] I loved reading about AA, you know? [03:04:23.688 – 03:04:27.128] I wanted to know what this thing was I was in, you know? [03:04:27.128 – 03:04:36.748] And, um, and so, and like I said, the Emmet F., uh, books, uh, you know, uh, like, uh, just all kind of… [03:04:36.748 – 03:04:37.668] Language of the Heart. [03:04:37.668 – 03:04:41.408] The Language of the Heart, uh, that was another one.

[03:04:41.408 – 03:04:46.088] Just so many, so many wonderful books of the program. [03:04:46.088 – 03:04:53.948] Um, but I think that, uh, uh, there, there's a constant, constant desire for people seeking a higher power. [03:04:53.948 – 03:04:54.548] Mm-hmm. [03:04:54.548 – 03:04:56.168] You know, in and out of the program. [03:04:56.168 – 03:04:57.168] Constant. [03:04:57.168 – 03:04:58.588] Mm-hmm. [03:04:58.588 – 03:04:59.668] Yeah.

[03:04:59.668 – 03:05:01.068] Yeah, I think so, too. [03:05:01.068 – 03:05:02.128] Yeah. [03:05:02.128 – 03:05:03.088] I do, too. [03:05:03.088 – 03:05:05.128] Well, ladies and gentlemen. [03:05:05.128 – 03:05:06.428] All right. [03:05:06.428 – 03:05:08.668] Jim, Jim, I have a quick question. [03:05:08.668 – 03:05:09.318] Sure, Eddie.

[03:05:09.318 – 03:05:09.708] Go ahead. [03:05:09.708 – 03:05:10.758] I, I… [03:05:10.758 – 03:05:15.878] G- g- when you were talking about the pamphlets, the Akron pamphlets, I was thinking about this. [03:05:15.878 – 03:05:25.408] Um, so I guess sometime later, uh, a- Akron and Cleveland put out the Four A. pam- pamphlet. [03:05:25.408 – 03:05:27.968] H- h- have you ever seen that? [03:05:27.968 – 03:05:29.948] I've seen the, the… [03:05:29.948 – 03:05:32.198] Cleveland has the Four A. pamphlet.

[03:05:32.198 – 03:05:32.388] Yeah. [03:05:32.388 – 03:05:32.748] Yes. [03:05:32.748 – 03:05:33.428] Yeah. [03:05:33.428 – 03:05:43.548] Yeah, so, so, so I was wondering, I, I was thinking, oh, may- maybe they, they decided to do that, I guess, after they started taking out the Four A. in, [03:05:43.548 – 03:05:44.448] uh, in those… [03:05:44.448 – 03:05:47.908] one of the other pamphlets that you were talking about. [03:05:47.908 – 03:05:50.428] You know, the five- That, that may…

[03:05:50.428 – 03:05:56.988] I, I haven't researched the, the, uh, Four A. pamphlet that they put out in Cleveland. [03:05:56.988 – 03:05:59.488] I'll, uh, I can, I can look that up. [03:05:59.488 – 03:06:00.618] But, uh- Yeah … [03:06:00.618 – 03:06:07.688] yeah, I don't know exactly what the timing was for the Four A., uh, uh, pamphlet. [03:06:07.688 – 03:06:08.248] Yeah, yeah. [03:06:08.248 – 03:06:13.628] No, it was interesting when you said that, and I thought, "Oh, maybe that's why they, they had a separate p- pamphlet. [03:06:13.628 – 03:06:17.428] Maybe later on they decided to do it." But, but it, it was interesting, yeah.

[03:06:17.428 – 03:06:18.248] Could be. [03:06:18.248 – 03:06:22.048] But anyways, I wanna thank everybody for sharing, and, uh, it was great. [03:06:22.048 – 03:06:23.588] It was great listening to everyone. [03:06:23.588 – 03:06:24.208] Yeah. [03:06:24.208 – 03:06:24.268] Yeah. [03:06:24.268 – 03:06:24.278] Yeah. [03:06:24.278 – 03:06:25.308] Thank you all.

[03:06:25.308 – 03:06:25.908] Thank you. [03:06:25.908 – 03:06:26.788] Thanks, everyone. [03:06:26.788 – 03:06:28.808] Maybe I'll see some of you tomorrow. [03:06:28.808 – 03:06:29.478] Tomorrow. [03:06:29.478 – 03:06:29.878] Yes, yes. [03:06:29.878 – 03:06:30.708] We'll see you tomorrow. [03:06:30.708 – 03:06:34.978] And, uh, Patrick, uh, Patrick is gonna talk- Yes …

[03:06:34.978 – 03:06:36.588] on the random roots of AA. [03:06:36.588 – 03:06:39.448] Patrick's always, always got lots of good stuff, so. [03:06:39.448 – 03:06:40.368] He does. [03:06:40.368 – 03:06:40.968] Yeah. [03:06:40.968 – 03:06:42.808] Yeah, he's a wealth of knowledge, too. [03:06:42.808 – 03:06:43.508] Yeah. [03:06:43.508 – 03:06:43.908] Okay.

[03:06:43.908 – 03:06:44.898] See you. [03:06:44.898 – 03:06:45.328] All right. [03:06:45.328 – 03:06:45.958] Goodbye, everybody. [03:06:45.958 – 03:06:46.488] Thanks, everyone. [03:06:46.488 – 03:06:47.248] Have a good evening. [03:06:47.248 – 03:06:47.847] Bye-bye. [03:06:47.847 – 03:06:49.468] Leon, Leon, good to have you.

[03:06:49.468 – 03:06:51.428] Come back, come back again. [03:06:51.428 – 03:06:52.948] Okay, I will, Jim. [03:06:52.948 – 03:06:53.828] Great. [03:06:53.828 – 03:06:54.657] Bye-bye.