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Source: 1975 Denver International Convention – 1975 Denver Int, The Alcoholism Field chair Dr Maxwell, Ed S, Verna L, Vern J, Q and A Part 2 of 2.mp3 File: 1975-denver-international-convention-1975-denver-int-the-alcoholism-field-chair-dr-maxwell-ed-s-verna-l-vern-j-q-and-a-part-2-of-2.mp3 Duration: 00:33:49
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And that gives us food for thought. The guidelines have been mentioned, but I'd like to emphasize, before we turn to questions, the importance of all AA members becoming aware of these guidelines for those who work in the alcoholism field. They are shared experience. They're not absolute gospel. They're shared experience. But there's wisdom there. And I am one of those who feels that basic to the resolution of this problem is for AA, those who are employed in the alcoholism field, and all AA's, to see to it, to work hard, get back to the AA basics, and to see to it that AA is at its best. And with that kind of development, I think our problem we're discussing today will gradually dissolve. Now, we said we would field some questions. If you'll hold your hand up, I'll recognize you and repeat the question if I can hear it.
First of all, how do we vaccinate 40,000 alcoholics a day? We've got 4,400 beds in the room at 1,500 to 1,800 miles an hour. Why don't we get to the middle of the room? Take the problem up with the management. Other questions? What sort of book are you talking about? It's a book called A Paraprofessional, A New Profession. The authors are Staub, that's T-A-U-B, and Kent. And the publisher, C.C. Thomas, came out about 1972. It's a collection of chapters by a variety of individuals. Since that time, there's some turning away from the concept of paraprofessional, but with the counselor certification, we are really creating a new profession rather than just a paraprofessional.
My name is Bob. I'd like to address my question to Myrna Hill. What advice would you give a fellow member who is seeking another consideration for a job as a counselor now? What would be the first thing you would suggest? All right. The question, Myrna, is to benefit our audience, someone now contemplating taking such a position, what are the most basic considerations? First of all, the first thing that comes to mind is certainly a minimum of two years' sobriety. I feel that two years' sobriety even before training is necessary. I think if it can be five years before being employed in the field, that's a lot better.
I feel that it takes, looking back on my own recovery, that it certainly took me at least two years to even begin to resolve my own problems and repair some of my own relationships, and that would certainly be the first consideration. And involvement in Alcoholics Anonymous. You know, the person should be involved in AA to be worthwhile as a counselor, I think.
[00:05:17]
Better talk to one of us after the meeting. I really can't answer very fast. What really was your question? Are you talking about a particular program? Well, may I say that is a local situation and is not a national trend. And how soon it can change in your situation is, I don't know. I have a question for Bob. I'd like to know what you've not said in June. I'd like to know what you do in order to bring yourself into the professional field.
With that kind of emphasis on recovery versus suffering and the other kinds of things that happen. How can we become professionals if we will, or if we do good jobs, if we insist on certain criteria, the rate of time that we have to prepare for the rate of development of a pursuant? I'll say that for that time, it's not necessarily the rate of a pursuant. Vernon, would you take it? Vernon, would you try this?
I'm very empathetic to what you're saying with reference to time is not the answer. Quality is rather where it is. For me, the most important issue besides sobriety itself is the quality of an individual to be able to empathize with another person at meaningful and deep levels. If you're talking about counselors now, there are other jobs of course, but if you're talking about counselors, I would think the primary qualification would be skills, empathic skills, which allow that to happen.
To put it in a kind of street way, I remember as I was leaving seminary, one of my roommates came in and said, what do you think about so-and-so being ordained? I said, well, yeah, I knew what he meant. He said, yeah, he's the smartest guy in our class, but he doesn't like people. There are a lot of people going into counseling who are incapable of any empathic relationship. Those people, in effect, do not like other people. They're doing their own thing.
They're meeting their own needs by going into that kind of a situation. So I'd say that would be a very strong emphasis on my part. You wanted to follow that up? I guess once you heard that, there are also 20-year-sobriety people who don't have what it takes to empathize. I guess once you heard that, there are also 20-year-sobriety people who don't have what it takes to empathize. That AA, the feeling that AA is being exploited by…
A lot of AA people are feeling this, and I think that I am. You know, unless you want to come out of the box and say AA didn't do it. The AA didn't do the work. Well, I don't know. Ed, I'd like for you to title that. Can you?
[00:10:00]
The question is a feeling that a lot of AA's are being exploited by others who are making money out of alcoholism. Is that… You know, in the greater New York area, I don't know exactly if I'm addressing myself to what you're asking, but every now and then our intergroup office will get a call and we will be asked, for instance, to send a volunteer to sit at a desk in a psycho ward and talk to drunks for 12-hour shifts and things like that.
Is that what you're talking about? I have seen a written quotation from one person in New York who said it. He hired members from outside of New England to come and live in New England. Oh. Well, he's right. He's right. But, you know, we've come a long way and we're going further. She said she saw a quote by somebody who said he hires members of AA to work in the alcoholism field because they get them cheap.
And I think he's right sometimes, you know. But we've come a long way. You know, I think one of the things… I talked briefly before about tunnel vision, and this gentleman over here is concerned about time. I think you've got to remember we're new kids on the block, and many are called but few are chosen. A hell of a lot of people who are in alcoholism today ain't going to be there in a few years, you know.
We're going to learn a lot more about the selection process as time goes on, and we will hopefully keep some of the people out who we are doing no favor by letting in. And you've got to remember, I think, I know I have to remember, that when psychiatry came along, the MDs gave them a hell of a battle. And when psychologists came along, the psychiatrists gave them a hell of a battle. And when the psychiatric social workers came along, the psychologists gave them a hell of a battle.
And now the recovered alcoholics are fighting for recognition, and it's not in 24 hours we're going to achieve it. It's going to take time. And, you know, I started out not making much money, and I make a little bit more now, four years later. And I'm going to… And I believe what Bill said, a laborer is worthy of his hire, and I remind my company of that constantly, and I'm… Thank you. Verna would like to respond to a couple of these things.
I would agree that time and certainty is not the only thing. There are people with a lot of sobriety that in no way have the skills or the qualifications to be counselors. I would agree with that 100%. I feel that employers don't always know why they're hiring recovering alcoholics. Are they hiring recovering alcoholics for PR? So they can say, yeah, we've got recovering alcoholics, because many of the referrals come from AE members, people, recovered alcoholics.
Or am I hiring this person for the skills that they can bring to this program? I think many people hiring alcoholics, perhaps they're doing it just because they're a recovered alcoholic. And low pay for a lot of work, I think that's true. I think that varies in various parts of the country. But I think as recovered alcoholics, if we have the qualifications to be a counselor, that we are responsible for not allowing ourselves to be exploited and working for nothing.
You can't pay your tax with dedication. They want money. Right? Some of us are concerned about AA members using their AA family architectures and the securing of grants. Well, first of all, individuals can't get grants, as far as I can know. As far as I can know.
[00:15:01]
So what are we talking about? Well, I think he's on treacherous ground in both terms. I'm here to support the ILO, and we have a men's rehabilitation center and a women's rehabilitation center, and I'd like to employ a man of their youth. Was this a commercial? We'll have a commercial break. See this man if you're looking for a job. There's all kinds of good stuff in the center. Look at Alcoholics Anonymous.
This is a school. I want you to learn not only what you have to do professionally, but personally. You need to relate to somebody that you're interested in. So for those people who might be short on that, and find an easier, softer way, I'd like to encourage them. For those who are trying to find some easier way than continuing strongly in the AA program, Mr. Wally here would like to discourage them.
I don't think anyone should be in this business, any AA member, without continuing to be a very, very strong AA member. I've completed a course and got a degree from a certified alcoholic counselor, and I'm going to apply up here. I was wondering, when I go into a thing, is it a wine thing to explain to them that I am an alcoholic and an addict too? To go into this just so I can leave that up to the employer.
Is that a help or a hindrance? It shouldn't be a matter of concern to you whether it's a help or a hindrance. You've got to be honest. Well, if it's a treatment center, it should be up to you, I would think. I don't like this word either, but I'm engaged in alcoholic rehabilitation. I left a friend of mine, I don't know how he's doing, rehabilitation, as a drain on my society, so I'm also an alcoholic.
And I better turn a garbage collector. I think we take a lot of stuff from people, and at any time, you've got to learn to survive. And for those of you that are able to, you're meant to have a lot of stuff. We have to. It takes a lot. I think that too many people labor under the illusion that they're pretty sharp outside of the fact that they have a drinking problem. And I think it takes two, three, five years to find out that you do have a drinking problem.
And I don't think that the person, even with a genius IQ, is capable of going directly into conflict within a short time after he sobers up. I don't think they could possibly. This supports the idea of a longer period of time, two minimum, five ideally, of good AA before going into the field. There's a hand up back there. You.
[00:20:02]
About 20, 22 years ago. The first I do all the answers. The first couple of years, I do all the answers. Not for the 20 years in prison, but I have some questions. It's a redhead hearing test. I have a question. You mentioned that counseling is a talent and a God-given skill. And I'm wondering how the federal government is going to determine that. How will they determine if you can be a candidate and you can't be a candidate?
The question is put that counseling is a God-given skill, and how is the federal government going to determine this? Certification does not lean too far away from considering this, the certification standards. These are for non-degreed individuals, recovered persons for the most part. Although they also require to become an alcoholism specialist, that doctors, psychiatrists, social workers and all must know something about alcoholism and about AA if they are to operate in the field.
That's also a part of the deal. Although I'm not afraid of the certification, it's been very loosely drawn up so far and very favorable to what you're concerned about. There needs to be more discussion, more clarification of something that's burned like a dog. The number of jobs, the number of tasks that need to be done in the field of alcoholism is as broad as all of mankind. You need people who are managers, business managers, accountants, public relations people to work among the different agencies.
Almost any talent that a person has. And yet the emphasis continues to be on counseling. Now we've got counselors. We need people who can do coordination. We can develop relationships between different people. And other things can be touched on. Well, that's true. We need talents used in other ways. But I think it's at the counseling point that this problem we're talking about today kind of heads up.
That's why we're talking about it. But it may give someone the idea that there's some other way of contributing. And if I may add this, I'd like to see a lot of talent stay in AA for AA leadership. I'd like to know that since the federal government is coming up with all these programs and AA is being handled now by Forest Hospital here in San Diego, is AA actively coming up with guidelines to help them?
Is there any official AA kind of concessions that any AA office gets? And if so, what are these guidelines? Yes. There are guidelines on every aspect of this problem published by AA. For working with treatment centers, for working with alcoholism facilities, with court ASAP programs, as well as for our people working in the alcoholism field. The guidelines are there and there are also lines of communication.
But the government, federal government, is funding for the most part state and local programs. And this is where a lot of the issues have to be worked out. Is there a future for the Alcoholism Counselor in the Community Mental Health Center? Is there a future for the Alcoholism Counselor in the Community Mental Health Center? I don't have a lot of personal experience with that. And I would guess that it would depend, from what I do know, it would depend on what the state itself is involved with with those centers.
[00:25:00]
You're talking about state mental health centers. Oh, you're talking about the regular government organization on that. Well, in our area, those organizations in those settings more and more are establishing alcoholism counselors. I would say that… Does anybody from Minnesota want to guess on that? Two-thirds of them, anyway, at least two-thirds of them have counselors for alcoholism with separate offices and going right at it.
The answer from that perspective is I think there is a future and also a present. All right. The session isn't over and there's still… I mean, our full official time is not over and there's still perhaps a few lingering questions. Go ahead. All right, we'll handle a few more. I would like to say I've been in the field about four years now and I think anybody that goes in the field has to go in with an open mind.
As far as seeking counsel, I mean, if your own house is in order, it's back to the big book. You can't transmit something that you don't have. I'm not sure I can repeat all of that, but… You need to have your AA basics, and in addition to that, you have to have an open mind to learn something from the professional side as well. Well, I think there's two hatches. There's one thing you have to remember.
The 12-step says to carry the message, but it doesn't say how. It doesn't say you have to run out and 12-step somebody, tell them what they're talking, tell them what they're doing, and so on. I've been in the field five years. It makes me feel comfortable that the 12-step gives me plenty of latitude The 12-steps doesn't say how we have to carry that message. The 12-steps do not say how we have to carry the message, and he feels very comfortable doing it both ways but keeping it separate.
I hear it. Some delegate areas are considering or are in the problem of barring people working in the field of alcoholism. Participating in general services is off the level of GSR. What's your thinking on that? Well, I can reflect the thinking of the general service conferences over the last number of years. The guidelines were recently revised. Some people feel that was due to a change. It is a correction of a preexisting feeling.
I'm bringing it in line with general conference feeling, which is that whether or not they serve in some AA service capacity beyond even the GSR and on up should depend upon their AA life and not whether they own anything else, what job they hold. That is the consensus for a number of years now. This does not mean that every individual going in this field is capable of that, but I think the local AAs will take care of that judgment.
I come from a country which does not use your service manual. We have a service manual of our own, I regret to say, in England. And in the new service manual in England, it's a form of fellowship at large, that people who are professional workers in the field of alcoholism should not hold any office in AA, not even at group level, such as group secretary, group treasurer, literature secretary. And in fact, the area which I come from, three groups where officers hold group offices, such as literature secretary, treasurer, and group secretary, were informed by the service office and the general service board that unless this was rectified, these three groups would not be listed in where defined in the Directory of Alcoholics Anonymous.
I'm happy to report that those three groups wrote a letter to the service board and said that they would continue to elect those officers they considered best able to serve the group, regardless of race, culture, or religion. I think that's one we ought to quit on, but here's a hand that's been up.
[00:30:14]
As I was trying out to talk on this, I wrote an article in the February grapevine on it, and a lot of people thought I was talking about myself. I was concerned about the young people in AA who were waiting for the abilitation that we're not living a normal AA life. I got letters from all over the country worrying about my survival, because I was raised resenting the fact that I couldn't hold an office in AA.
Hell, I've held all of them. I don't need any more. But really what I wanted to do just came up after my thoughts. We haven't talked much as professionals or paraprofessionals, but I think one of our continuing obligations is going to be to protect the anonymity of AA. Rehabilitation has got a lot of enemies. We're not in AA. A lot of people resent the money we're getting. There's a lot of children, a lot of old people that need money.
And we've got to be careful as members of AA to protect the anonymity that made all of this possible. Don't kid yourself. I don't think there'd be a National Council on Alcoholism if it wasn't for AA. I don't think we'd have a Miners Act in Florida if it wasn't for AA. I don't think we'd have a $3 million budget in Dayton if it wasn't for AA. But we have got to protect that anonymity, because in the anonymity of AA lays the power of AA.
Well, I agree with that, and I'd like to add to it, keeping all of the AA program very strong. With that, I think I'll ask Paula to close the meeting. While Paula's looking there for a minute, Verna has a few copies of the paper that she read. Or sign up for one that can be sent to her. I think she said she brought 50. Now back to Paula. Thank all of you for a wonderful meeting and marvelous participation. And we certainly want to thank our Chairman, Dr. Maxwell, and the speakers, Verna, Vern, and Ed.
And now, those who care to, please join us in the Lord's Prayer. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.