Remarkable Finds A Historians Journey presented by Jay S – 2025-04-22

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Unknown Tuesday Night History Workshop • 2025

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Unknown ABOUT THIS WORKSHOP

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Unknown Jay S speaking on "Remarkable Finds A Historians Journey" in Tuesday Night History Workshop (April 22, 2025). This recording is preserved in high-fidelity with interactive scrolling transcripts.

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Unknown Interactive Transcript

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[00 00:03.020 – 00:00:07.259] Welcome to the Tuesday Night Recovery Speakers History Workshop.

0:20

[00 00:07.259 – 00:00:09.619] Thank you everyone for joining us tonight.

0:24

[00 00:09.619 – 00:00:17.559] My name is Tim, and tonight we have a special presentation by Jay S.

0:30

[00 00:17.559 – 00:00:20.140] from Sedona, Arizona.

0:32

[00 00:20.140 – 00:00:22.660] And Jay will be- From the fourth dimension ...

0:36

[00 00:22.660 – 00:00:26.420] the fourth d- from the fourth dimension.

0:39

[00 00:26.420 – 00:00:28.719] And, uh...

0:41

[00 00:28.719 – 00:00:31.579] Oh, man, I lost it.

0:43

[00 00:31.579 – 00:00:33.960] But Jay will be talking tonight.

0:46

[00 00:33.960 – 00:00:36.420] Um, sorry I don't remember the topic.

0:50

[00 00:36.420 – 00:00:42.079] But next week, uh, we meet every Tuesday night at the same time and at the same Zoom ID number.

0:58

[00 00:42.079 – 00:00:52.159] And next week is our conversation with a long-timer, and, uh, we will have another great talk, uh, next week

1:07

[00 00:52.159 – 00:00:55.140] with our long-timer of the month.

1:10

[00 00:55.140 – 00:01:05.180] And uh, this meeting is being recorded, and the audio from tonight's

1:16

[00 01:05.180 – 00:01:11.159] presentation, as well as all of our past presentations, can be found at recoveryspeakers.com.

1:23

[00 01:11.159 – 00:01:21.620] This meeting is not affiliated with any 12-step organization, although our goal is to focus on the history of AA and other 12-step

1:33

[00 01:21.620 – 00:01:22.299] fellowships.

1:34

[00 01:22.299 – 00:01:33.900] Recoveryspeakers.com is dedicated to preserving and making the audio history of AA and the 12-step movement available

1:42

[00 01:33.900 – 00:01:35.819] for everyone today and in the future.

1:46

[00 01:35.819 – 00:01:43.359] We share a daily email that features a different speaker talk from the Recovery Speakers audio library.

1:53

[00 01:43.359 – 00:01:51.620] Included in the daily emails are links to the recordings of this meeting, as well as information about upcoming presentations.

2:02

[00 01:51.620 – 00:01:58.939] If you would like to receive our daily email, you can subscribe through the link I shared in the chat a couple minutes ago.

2:13

[00 01:58.939 – 00:02:01.859] I will share it again for anyone joining late.

2:17

[00 02:01.859 – 00:02:10.800] And, or you can, uh, just send me a message at info@recoveryspeakers.com and I will get you added to our list.

2:27

[00 02:10.800 – 00:02:17.009] And Recovery Speakers is an official 501[c][3] public charity.

2:32

[00 02:17.009 – 00:02:26.740] If you are able to, we accept contributions which allow us to continue our work, and I have shared the different ways to make contributions in the chat.

2:44

[00 02:26.740 – 00:02:36.780] And tonight, we should have some time for Q&A at the end of the meeting, so if you have a question, please, uh, write it down and be prepared to

2:58

[00 02:36.780 – 00:02:39.139] ask questions at the end.

3:00

[00 02:39.139 – 00:02:45.139] And I am going to close the chat right now, and I will open that back up at the end of the meeting.

3:11

[00 02:45.139 – 00:02:50.520] And, uh, now I would like to, uh, turn it over to Jay.

3:17

[00 02:50.520 – 00:02:54.780] Jay, thank you so much for being here, and, uh, you can take it away.

3:23

[00 02:54.780 – 00:02:56.199] Thank you.

3:25

[00 02:56.199 – 00:02:58.020] Well, hey, everybody.

3:26

[00 02:58.020 – 00:03:03.719] I am so excited to be with you tonight and to be able to, uh...

3:33

[00 03:03.719 – 00:03:13.800] When I was trying to, uh, let this incredible enthusiasm that I'm graced

3:39

[00 03:13.800 – 00:03:24.039] with, uh, take form, what, what, what came was all the wonderful things that, that I had

3:47

[00 03:24.039 – 00:03:29.219] no idea existed when I started studying AA history.

3:51

[00 03:29.219 – 00:03:39.879] And I thought what I'd do is I'd talk about maybe six or 10 of them, and, um, hopefully that what it might do is it might inspire

4:03

[00 03:39.879 – 00:03:45.000] you to follow your own particular heart.

4:07

[00 03:45.000 – 00:03:55.469] And there are so many things that are available now that never have, that weren't in the past, that will allow you to have a relationship

4:18

[00 03:55.469 – 00:04:02.699] not only with the information, but with yourself that, uh, at least for me, was unimaginable.

4:25

[00 04:02.699 – 00:04:04.180] Absolutely unimaginable.

4:27

[00 04:04.180 – 00:04:14.219] And so, uh, I will plug that in two weeks we're gonna have, um, it'll be the, uh, uh,

4:35

[00 04:14.219 – 00:04:24.500] the release of my documentary, uh, Bill W.: Conscious Contact, and we're gonna have Sally Corbiturco

4:42

[00 04:24.500 – 00:04:34.639] of the, uh, Stepping Stones Foundation, my closest colleague, William Shaeberg, the writer of the writing of The Big Book, and the director,

4:53

[00 04:34.639 – 00:04:35.680] Kevin Hanlon.

4:54

[00 04:35.680 – 00:04:45.779] The four of us will be, uh, here on Recovery Speakers talking about our experience, uh, in making this, uh,

5:03

[00 04:45.779 – 00:04:46.500] this film.

5:04

[00 04:46.500 – 00:04:56.620] And I have to tell you that the film is an outgrowth of the information

5:11

[00 04:56.620 – 00:05:00.819] coming to me, not something that I decided I was gonna go out and make.

5:18

[00 05:00.819 – 00:05:05.019] So that's why this, why doing this talk, you know?

5:23

[00 05:05.019 – 00:05:09.519] I think that the, the, the first thing in my, my, my...

5:28

[00 05:09.519 – 00:05:22.839] My desire to study AA history came from my deep want

5:33

[00 05:22.839 – 00:05:24.079] to help alcoholics.

5:35

[00 05:24.079 – 00:05:34.480] And when I was reading the, the, the literature in the beginning of when I got, when I got sober, I got sober, uh,

5:46

[00 05:34.540 – 00:05:39.300] in the South Bay of Los Angeles, and I bought, uh, Pass It On.

5:52

[00 05:39.300 – 00:05:41.939] Or no, Pass It On wasn't out yet.

5:56

[00 05:41.939 – 00:05:42.740] Um, it was Dr.

5:58

[00 05:42.740 – 00:05:51.019] Bob and The Good Old-Timers, The Big Book, the 12x12, and then, um, Not God was in the, in the bookcase too, so I got Not God.

6:10

[00 05:51.019 – 00:05:56.319] And I started to read this stuff and, um, I was floored.

6:16

[00 05:56.319 – 00:06:06.420] And when I looked at the, the, uh, the forward to the second edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, it talks about

6:26

[00 06:06.420 – 00:06:11.879] of those who came to Alcoholics Anonymous and really tried, 50% of them got sober.

6:33

[00 06:11.879 – 00:06:16.540] And I went, "Well, I don't see that in Southern California in 1979.

6:38

[00 06:16.540 – 00:06:18.100] What, what, what's going on?

6:41

[00 06:18.100 – 00:06:28.360] What, what, what were they doing?" And so I, I started going down the Oxford Group rabbit hole and, uh, um, you know, I read,

6:52

[00 06:28.360 – 00:06:38.399] uh, uh, Helen Shoemaker's biography of her husband, Sam's, I Stand by the Door, and I started to, um, be inter- I got, uh,

7:03

[00 06:38.399 – 00:06:45.199] a copy of I Was a Pagan and a copy of, uh, For Sinners Only.

7:10

[00 06:45.199 – 00:06:49.279] Um, actually, those were given to me by my beloved at the time.

7:16

[00 06:49.279 – 00:06:54.139] I don't know why she thought those titles might apply to me.

7:21

[00 06:54.139 – 00:07:04.720] But, uh, but anyway, um, and what happened is, is that I recognized in the OG literature,

7:29

[00 07:04.720 – 00:07:12.100] um, you know, all this stuff about alcoholics, the, all these similarities to what we know as Alcoholics Anonymous.

7:37

[00 07:15.273 – 00:07:21.733] Then, uh, I called over to Washington, DC.

7:41

[00 07:21.733 – 00:07:31.773] I was given the phone number of Moral Rearmament, which was the, the, the iteration of, uh, the Oxford Group after

7:51

[00 07:31.773 – 00:07:33.053] 1938.

7:51

[00 07:33.053 – 00:07:39.073] And I called, I called them up and I said, you know, "I'm interested.

7:57

[00 07:39.073 – 00:07:40.113] I'm a historian.

7:59

[00 07:40.113 – 00:07:41.543] I'm interested in A.A.

8:02

[00 07:41.543 – 00:07:42.443] history," blah, blah, blah.

8:04

[00 07:42.443 – 00:07:43.903] They gave me a few names.

8:07

[00 07:43.903 – 00:07:53.133] And Dick and Randy Ruffin at the time were the, uh, the national chairman of Moral Rearmament, and they were working out of Washington, DC.

8:18

[00 07:53.133 – 00:07:57.153] And, uh, they were very encouraging to me.

8:22

[00 07:57.153 – 00:07:58.922] They gave me some phone numbers.

8:25

[00 07:58.922 – 00:08:07.633] One was to the man who became my Oxford Group mentor, uh, Hunter, uh, uh, T- uh, T.

8:33

[00 08:07.633 – 00:08:11.073] Willard Hunter, and he was a remarkable man.

8:37

[00 08:11.073 – 00:08:19.573] And, uh, and my association with him over about 15 years was just, just delightful.

8:43

[00 08:19.573 – 00:08:29.633] And, uh, but the first people that I really, uh, got to know was Peter and Sterry Kip, and they were probably in their early 80s in the

8:56

[00 08:29.633 – 00:08:32.433] time, and they were living in Orange, California.

8:59

[00 08:32.433 – 00:08:42.433] And they, during their quiet time, occasionally what would come to them is, "Let's call Jay Stennet and see if

9:08

[00 08:42.433 – 00:08:52.493] he'll make us a pot of tea." And then they would come up, and you know, they'd come to the house and drive all the way up there, and they would, they would tell me stories,

9:24

[00 08:53.713 – 00:09:03.713] and they were remarkable stories about their lives and the people that they were involved with, and Frank Bookman, and, and, um, uh, these were people that they, they knew

9:37

[00 09:03.713 – 00:09:04.273] well.

9:38

[00 09:04.273 – 00:09:10.033] And, um, and they really inspired me.

9:42

[00 09:10.033 – 00:09:15.053] And, uh, I learned that the Oxford Group lives.

9:46

[00 09:15.053 – 00:09:21.153] It is not something in the musty past.

9:50

[00 09:21.153 – 00:09:31.873] It is a group of people demonstrating spiritual principles in incomprehensibly difficult

9:55

[00 09:31.873 – 00:09:42.373] political, uh, and economic and, uh, and war zones, uh, just in- incredible, all over the world today.

10:04

[00 09:42.373 – 00:09:52.513] Um, and, uh, and you start

10:06

[00 09:52.513 – 00:10:01.453] listening to how applying these spiritual principles in group settings works.

10:12

[00 10:01.453 – 00:10:11.633] And so I, I ended up going to Coast Switzerland to the Moral Rearmament center there.

10:19

[00 10:11.633 – 00:10:21.873] And, um, I've had the privilege of being a "member" of Moral Rearmament since probably about

10:26

[00 10:21.873 – 00:10:24.533] 1996.

10:27

[00 10:24.533 – 00:10:28.413] Now, how do you become a member?

10:30

[00 10:28.413 – 00:10:33.753] Just like in the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, it's only by the quality of the life that you live.

10:39

[00 10:33.753 – 00:10:43.813] And, um, and so I've ha- I've, I got to associate with these people, and I could go on and on with you about

10:49

[00 10:43.813 – 00:10:52.293] the different stories I've heard, the people that I've met, the things that I've been involved with on a personal level.

10:59

[00 10:52.293 – 00:10:55.513] But I just want you to know that this was...

11:03

[00 10:55.513 – 00:11:01.573] I had no idea that these people and this energy was available.

11:09

[00 11:01.573 – 00:11:11.593] And, um, uh, Janine and I were just in, uh, Panchgani, India a while ago, um, at a, uh, International Center of Peace and

11:20

[00 11:11.593 – 00:11:13.873] Reconciliation that's there.

11:21

[00 11:13.873 – 00:11:24.693] And, uh, you know, when, uh, one of the unintended consequences like Mohammed or

11:28

[00 11:24.693 – 00:11:33.432] Mahatma Gandhi's grandson, Rajmohan, for 15 years when he'd come through Los Angeles, I was his wheel man.

11:35

[00 11:33.432 – 00:11:38.073] I'd come and pick him up at the airport, take him around to whatever talks he was giving and the like.

11:45

[00 11:38.073 – 00:11:48.233] Um, uh, these people don't have any money, so when we had our place, uh, in, uh, in Redondo Beach, California, you know, the, the spare

11:56

[00 11:48.233 – 00:11:58.892] bedroom there was always there for people who were traveling around the world doing their best to, to carry this message of these, practicing these principles

12:08

[00 11:58.893 – 00:11:59.973] in all of our affairs.

12:10

[00 11:59.973 – 00:12:04.913] And, uh, so anyway, so the first thing was that the Oxford Group lives.

12:17

[00 12:04.913 – 00:12:06.233] I mean, to me, that was remarkable.

12:20

[00 12:06.233 – 00:12:07.153] Changed my life.

12:22

[00 12:07.153 – 00:12:09.193] Great, great, great thing.

12:24

[00 12:09.193 – 00:12:19.233] I think the second most remarkable thing that I'd like to share with you is a mistake that

12:32

[00 12:19.233 – 00:12:19.873] I made.

12:34

[00 12:19.873 – 00:12:25.533] And I know you can't believe that I would make a mistake, but I, I made a big one.

12:42

[00 12:25.533 – 00:12:35.183] And what it was was there was a, there was a personality that had an agenda that was involved in the A.A.

12:52

[00 12:35.183 – 00:12:45.333] history community, and because he had done so much research, I didn't realize the agenda that

13:00

[00 12:45.333 – 00:12:45.933] he had.

13:01

[00 12:45.933 – 00:12:57.553] I, I did not, I did not really investigate this

13:06

[00 12:57.553 – 00:13:07.853] idea that Bob was a rigid Christian and that, uh, the Oxford Group in,

13:12

[00 13:07.853 – 00:13:13.873] uh, Ohio was a bunch of rigid religious people.

13:16

[00 13:13.873 – 00:13:20.893] It's just like the, the, the Moral Rearmament people that I meet, they laugh as, as deeply as the A.A.

13:26

[00 13:20.893 – 00:13:27.433] folks 'cause they get the joke, that they're, they're all trying to get a little bit better.

13:33

[00 13:27.433 – 00:13:30.113] They're not, they're not walking around being perfect people.

13:38

[00 13:30.113 – 00:13:40.192] And, uh, and so I, I, I didn't understand until I was doing some research, you know,

13:45

[00 13:40.193 – 00:13:43.593] uh, and I was looking at Bob's library.

13:49

[00 13:43.593 – 00:13:50.413] And I start, I ran across a book of Gurdjieff's.

13:54

[00 13:50.413 – 00:14:00.753] Now, I don't know if you've ever tried to read Gurdjieff, but I mean, it's really dense philosophical stuff,

14:02

[00 14:00.753 – 00:14:10.193] and it has absolutely nothing to do with, um, any kind of, uh, moralistic behavior per se.

14:10

[00 14:10.193 – 00:14:17.973] And, uh, and then I started, uh, and then there was this book, Thy Kingdom Come.

14:17

[00 14:17.973 – 00:14:23.673] Now, I think, again, I think that this is some Christian tome.

14:23

[00 14:23.673 – 00:14:27.903] But what it ends up being is this book about-

14:28

[00 14:28.039 – 00:14:38.699] About the reincar- not the reincarnation, but the, the, the revisiting of Arthur Conan Doyle's spirit

14:35

[00 14:38.759 – 00:14:45.639] to the world after he died, talking about spiritualism and where he was right and where he was wrong.

14:43

[00 14:45.639 – 00:14:56.359] I'm going, "Huh?" And I find out that there's all these spiritualist books in

14:50

[00 14:56.359 – 00:14:57.979] l- Bob's library.

14:52

[00 14:57.979 – 00:15:01.039] And the more I look at this...

14:55

[00 15:01.039 – 00:15:11.179] A- and this book, Thy Kingdom Come, Bob sent to Bill and said, "I really want you to read this, and I want you to get back

15:07

[00 15:11.179 – 00:15:21.499] to me right away because I don't wanna wait six months to find out what it is that you think about this." And, uh, and so that was, that was fascinating.

15:21

[00 15:21.499 – 00:15:31.619] Um, on the little thing, the blurb for the, for the, for the talk today, there's a, a thing called, uh, uh, Life

15:31

[00 15:31.619 – 00:15:34.099] in India by, uh, Paul Brunton.

15:34

[00 15:34.099 – 00:15:39.519] Now, I don't know about you nice people, but I run around with some pretty...

15:41

[00 15:39.519 – 00:15:43.699] I've been running around with some pretty interesting non-dualists for a long time.

15:47

[00 15:43.699 – 00:15:46.319] Four decades at least.

15:49

[00 15:46.319 – 00:15:56.099] And, and so one of the people that we always kind of, you know, we got hushed about when we talked about was, was Ramana Maharshi.

16:00

[00 15:56.099 – 00:16:07.859] And the man who, um, popularized Ramana Maharshi in, in the West was a guy by the name of Paul Brunton, B-R-U-N-T-O-N.

16:10

[00 16:07.859 – 00:16:14.659] And, uh, you can also go on YouTube and you can see little movies that he made of this Indian holy man.

16:20

[00 16:14.659 – 00:16:21.899] Anyway, I'm, uh, I'm going through some of Bill's letters, and he mentions Brunton.

16:27

[00 16:21.899 – 00:16:33.479] And he, all he only said, uh, "You know, I remember reading a little of his, of his stuff early on and, and it was helpful." Then

16:38

[00 16:33.479 – 00:16:37.079] I'm at Brown University just a f- couple months ago.

16:43

[00 16:37.079 – 00:16:39.679] I guess maybe it's been a year now.

16:47

[00 16:39.679 – 00:16:43.849] But anyway, I was, I was at Brown University, and they've got all of Dr.

16:54

[00 16:43.849 – 00:16:45.119] Bob's books.

16:55

[00 16:45.119 – 00:16:54.739] And in there is Brunton's book on Life in India and his description of Ramana Maharshi.

17:02

[00 16:54.739 – 00:17:01.239] And Bob bought this book at a place called Lily Dale.

17:08

[00 17:01.239 – 00:17:05.779] Now, for those of you who haven't had the privilege, now this is another...

17:14

[00 17:05.779 – 00:17:15.839] You know, these, this is like, "Just jump down the wormhole." Like, this place, Lily Dale, is up by,

17:23

[00 17:15.839 – 00:17:19.679] um, Buffalo, and it's 160 acres.

17:25

[00 17:19.679 – 00:17:28.719] There's about 80 people that live there, and in order to live there, you have to be a registered medium or psychic.

17:34

[00 17:28.719 – 00:17:33.479] And it's been that way since 1895.

17:37

[00 17:33.479 – 00:17:42.679] This community calls itself a free thinking zone, and it's, and it's not bound by the laws around.

17:46

[00 17:42.679 – 00:17:52.479] Uh, it was a way to keep them from being, uh, overrun or attacked by, uh, by certain religious people back in the day.

17:56

[00 17:52.479 – 00:17:55.259] This was the only place that Susan B.

18:00

[00 17:55.259 – 00:18:03.279] Anthony could go and speak freely about suffrage without being wo- without being worried about being arrested.

18:08

[00 18:03.279 – 00:18:12.719] But this place is a great repository of spiritualists, psychic literature, all kinds of different philosophies.

18:15

[00 18:12.719 – 00:18:15.579] Um, you know, India and the like.

18:19

[00 18:15.579 – 00:18:23.379] And this book, and there's like nine books of Bob's that were from this place, Lily Dale.

18:26

[00 18:23.379 – 00:18:33.799] Mary Darrell, who wrote the book on Sister Ignatia,

18:30

[00 18:33.799 – 00:18:35.889] and I were talking once.

18:33

[00 18:35.889 – 00:18:48.038] I said I was doing some work on Bill's spiritual evolution, to which she quickly said, "He evolved?" The

18:42

[00 18:48.038 – 00:18:52.519] Akron, New York resentment is still alive and well.

18:46

[00 18:52.519 – 00:18:54.999] It's just, it's just really, really fun to watch.

18:50

[00 18:54.999 – 00:19:05.199] Anyway, she said that she was looking through Bob's books at one point, and she was talking with Bob's, uh, daughter, Sue, and Sue told her

19:02

[00 19:05.199 – 00:19:09.839] that Bob and Ann went to Lily Dale frequently.

19:06

[00 19:09.839 – 00:19:19.869] Now, I don't know what frequent is to you, but anyway, that, that these people would be, um, going to this

19:15

[00 19:19.869 – 00:19:21.139] psychic repository.

19:17

[00 19:21.139 – 00:19:25.179] And if you're ever in Upstate New York, I highly recommend going there.

19:23

[00 19:25.179 – 00:19:27.079] It's just great, great fun.

19:25

[00 19:27.079 – 00:19:36.499] And, uh, I had the privilege of giving a, a, a series of talks there about, uh, the spiritualism and, and, and the history of AA.

19:37

[00 19:36.499 – 00:19:38.399] Uh, and uh...

19:38

[00 19:38.399 – 00:19:49.629] I mean, to be on that, to be on that platform where, like, Arthur Ford walked,

19:46

[00 19:49.629 – 00:19:57.659] the guy who solved the Houdini, uh, mystery, uh, that was a very, very good friend of Bill Wilson's.

19:54

[00 19:57.659 – 00:20:00.479] Um, it's incredible.

19:56

[00 20:00.479 – 00:20:07.659] So a- again, it's like you start following these, these threads and the places that you go.

20:04

[00 20:07.659 – 00:20:09.579] And, and why was I in Lily Dale?

20:08

[00 20:09.579 – 00:20:19.649] Well, because I've been working on, you know, this biography of Bill Wilson, trying to get to know him better and better for many, many years,

20:19

[00 20:19.649 – 00:20:25.799] and the only part of his life that I did not have personal experience with was spiritualism.

20:27

[00 20:25.799 – 00:20:29.979] When I heard about it, I just kind of went, "Meh." Right?

20:32

[00 20:29.979 – 00:20:31.189] It's like, "Ugh." That's...

20:34

[00 20:31.189 – 00:20:33.789] It just kind of gets you a little nervous, right?

20:39

[00 20:33.789 – 00:20:44.129] And so I had the privilege of, um, going there and spending

20:45

[00 20:44.129 – 00:20:47.469] time and watching how these people work.

20:48

[00 20:47.469 – 00:20:57.579] And from my own investigation, spiritualism is as valid as any religious path that I've gone

20:55

[00 20:57.579 – 00:20:58.579] down and played with.

20:58

[00 20:58.579 – 00:21:01.599] It's incredibly elegant.

20:59

[00 21:01.599 – 00:21:03.839] And the, uh...

21:01

[00 21:03.839 – 00:21:11.179] And, and just like with anything, there's, there's, there's all kinds of, uh, people that take advantage of folks.

21:09

[00 21:11.179 – 00:21:19.509] But, uh, so to, to go to Lily Dale was, was an, a, a, an amazing consoling thing.

21:18

[00 21:19.509 – 00:21:29.939] And I had readings with people and, and, and ended up, you know, getting information, having experiences about my father that nobody else possibly

21:28

[00 21:29.939 – 00:21:30.599] could have known.

21:30

[00 21:30.599 – 00:21:40.659] And then, as part of one of my research, uh, uh, the researching into this

21:37

[00 21:40.659 – 00:21:41.889] thing about spiritualism-

21:39

[00 21:41.999 – 00:21:42.239] Human.

21:39

[00 21:42.239 – 00:21:52.239] And, uh, I had the privilege of getting together with Lisa Williams, who's one of the great mediums of this generation, and, um,

21:50

[00 21:52.239 – 00:21:57.789] and we went, uh, to, um, to Stepping Stones.

21:54

[00 21:57.789 – 00:22:08.119] And, uh, they gave me permission to, as a research thing, to, to, uh, to do some readings there and some channelings and the like, and it was, it was

22:07

[00 22:08.119 – 00:22:09.199] remarkable.

22:08

[00 22:09.199 – 00:22:10.579] Lot of fun.

22:10

[00 22:10.579 – 00:22:18.379] Um, so now I don't feel like spiritualism is something strange.

22:15

[00 22:18.379 – 00:22:20.619] It's something familiar.

22:17

[00 22:20.619 – 00:22:21.559] It's something I know about.

22:19

[00 22:21.559 – 00:22:24.929] It's something that I have experience with over, over a long period of time.

22:26

[00 22:24.929 – 00:22:27.819] And one of the, uh, the, the, the funnest...

22:30

[00 22:27.819 – 00:22:37.999] So we walk in the door of the house, and Lisa's

22:35

[00 22:37.999 – 00:22:38.479] with me.

22:36

[00 22:38.479 – 00:22:42.239] Lisa does not even know that Bill Wilson drank.

22:41

[00 22:42.239 – 00:22:43.939] She only knows that he founded AA.

22:44

[00 22:43.939 – 00:22:46.919] She doesn't know that he had a drinking problem.

22:48

[00 22:46.919 – 00:22:55.419] And we walk in the house, and, uh, the first energy that she encounters was, uh, Lois's.

22:56

[00 22:55.419 – 00:23:03.279] And, uh, Lois wants to know if she's, can get her anything, is she comfortable, blah, blah, blah.

23:04

[00 23:03.279 – 00:23:13.699] And then, um, all of a sudden, uh, Lisa starts repeating an English nursery rhyme

23:11

[00 23:13.699 – 00:23:15.859] about Nelly the Elephant.

23:13

[00 23:15.859 – 00:23:22.359] And then of course the first room that you go into to the left is Nell Wing's room.

23:21

[00 23:22.359 – 00:23:24.619] And she...

23:22

[00 23:24.619 – 00:23:28.939] So anyway, I mean, it's just, just all kinds of interesting things like that.

23:29

[00 23:28.939 – 00:23:38.259] And, and again, uh, I have no desire to change anybody's mind.

23:34

[00 23:38.259 – 00:23:49.019] All that I'm saying is, is that if you have any kind of inclination, go make an experiment

23:43

[00 23:49.019 – 00:23:57.819] and do the things that you can to enjoy this wonderful information that we're, that w- there, we're able to have now.

23:52

[00 23:57.819 – 00:24:07.899] I mean, folks, I, I know I sound like a broken record, 'cause I am one, but, but you have the ability today to

24:03

[00 24:07.899 – 00:24:12.019] have access to Bill and Lois Wilson that Ernie Kurtz didn't.

24:08

[00 24:12.019 – 00:24:22.059] All you have to do is go to steppingstones.org, and go to the Learn button and click it, and you've got

24:18

[00 24:22.059 – 00:24:23.079] access to stuff.

24:20

[00 24:23.079 – 00:24:31.679] And you don't have to, like, get the, get the paper and read it, and then maybe transcribe part of it, and then they come and take it back.

24:33

[00 24:31.679 – 00:24:37.879] You get to actually sit there with it and meditate with it yourself.

24:39

[00 24:37.879 – 00:24:40.039] Come back to it whenever you want.

24:42

[00 24:40.039 – 00:24:43.059] It's, it's an incredible experience.

24:45

[00 24:43.059 – 00:24:47.699] So whatever it is that your personal, um...

24:48

[00 24:47.699 – 00:24:57.839] 'Cause, you know, I mean, y'all are, number one, you're AA members, which f- My sponsor said about us history buffs in AA,

24:59

[00 24:57.839 – 00:25:07.999] he said, "Jay, don't ever get very impressed by yourself or these people." He said, "They're the Star Wars conventioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous."

25:09

[00 25:07.999 – 00:25:08.439] You know?

25:10

[00 25:08.439 – 00:25:13.159] And, and Tim and Mike are the, the people who carry the lightsabers for all of us.

25:18

[00 25:13.159 – 00:25:23.019] But, but each of you has some, some little thing that, that you're interested in, and you can actually go and do the primary document research and go and find this.

25:32

[00 25:23.019 – 00:25:25.039] And, see, it's just like with me.

25:35

[00 25:25.039 – 00:25:30.799] I mean, like, I didn't have any idea about spiritualism, and now that informs my life.

25:42

[00 25:30.799 – 00:25:38.499] Just like my, my, my being involved with Moral Re-Armament, now called Initiatives of Change, it informed my life.

25:51

[00 25:38.499 – 00:25:38.879] Why?

25:52

[00 25:38.879 – 00:25:40.619] Because I was a history geek.

25:55

[00 25:40.619 – 00:25:49.879] Um, so back to this thing about why, why I started looking, 'cause I wanted to do AA right.

26:03

[00 25:49.879 – 00:25:52.329] You know, I wanted to be able to help others and all that stuff.

26:10

[00 25:52.329 – 00:26:02.559] So then I, you know, make an application and, and, and, uh, in 1992 was able to go and do

26:18

[00 26:02.559 – 00:26:05.819] primary document research at General Service Office for the first time.

26:23

[00 26:05.819 – 00:26:07.539] Big deal for me.

26:25

[00 26:07.539 – 00:26:08.059] Big deal.

26:27

[00 26:08.059 – 00:26:13.419] But you can, you know, you can make that application if you've got enthusiasm.

26:33

[00 26:13.419 – 00:26:23.449] Anyway, so I go there and, um, and I'm, I'm looking through stuff, and this was the first time that really

26:42

[00 26:23.449 – 00:26:33.579] was shown to me, because I probably was able to read a couple hundred letters over the course of that three days that I was in New York, that Bill's not giving people advice.

26:57

[00 26:33.579 – 00:26:43.619] I went there looking for the right way to do something, and the guy who wrote the book

27:06

[00 26:43.619 – 00:26:50.679] never once says, "Look on page 23, the third paragraph, the second line.

27:11

[00 26:50.679 – 00:26:57.349] There's the answer to your problem." Which is what I did with sponsees all the time, right?

27:19

[00 26:57.349 – 00:26:59.159] No.

27:20

[00 26:59.159 – 00:27:09.279] All he does is talk about when he was in a similar situation, and how it is that he seemed to muddle through

27:30

[00 27:09.279 – 00:27:19.739] it, and then he'd tell some, uh, self-deprecating anecdote, and, and then he'd encourage somebody to just stay sober and keep,

27:39

[00 27:19.739 – 00:27:20.999] uh, keep along the path.

27:42

[00 27:20.999 – 00:27:34.319] Now, that level of humility, unbelievable.

27:45

[00 27:34.319 – 00:27:45.399] And yet you walk into meetings, you hear about, everybody talk about Bill the Promoter and all that stuff, 'cause they're only, they're only talking about him really pre-1941.

27:58

[00 27:45.399 – 00:27:55.839] Bill Wilson is without a doubt the

28:01

[00 27:55.839 – 00:28:04.919] humblest person that I've ever had the privilege of knowing of.

28:06

[00 28:04.919 – 00:28:07.479] I mean, can you imagine this?

28:09

[00 28:07.479 – 00:28:11.999] Alcoholics Anonymous is a success, 1950.

28:12

[00 28:11.999 – 00:28:22.669] There's thousands of people that are recovering from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body, something that was a death sentence just,

28:22

[00 28:22.669 – 00:28:32.999] just a mere 15 years prior, and he starts work to turn the fellowship over so that he's not involved as the, the, the main character

28:33

[00 28:32.999 – 00:28:36.419] anymore, as the educator of, of, of everything.

28:37

[00 28:36.419 – 00:28:45.458] I, I only know of Krishnamurti and, and, uh, George Washington that, that exhibited the same, same type of thing.

28:46

[00 28:45.458 – 00:28:52.499] So, so again, I, I have this experience of this in- incredible man not giving advice.

28:53

[00 28:52.499 – 00:28:55.739] Now, another thing that I was looking for was-

28:58

[00 28:56.066 – 00:29:06.056] I was looking for the references that he had when he was writing the Big Book and other things and, and how he went about, you know, taking this and taking that because that's what I was saying that he was doing.

29:16

[00 29:06.056 – 00:29:15.126] I was taking my reading of Oxford Group literature, and then I was comparing it to what was in the book Alcoholics Anonymous, and I was making the bridge.

29:29

[00 29:15.126 – 00:29:18.566] The expert, right?

29:30

[00 29:18.566 – 00:29:27.896] And when I, when I start reading Wilson's letters, he starts talking about how he's not a reader, that Dr.

29:39

[00 29:27.896 – 00:29:29.876] Bob was the reader of the two of them.

29:44

[00 29:29.876 – 00:29:38.706] But that, that his, his spiritual learning came from, from conversation and observation.

29:50

[00 29:38.706 – 00:29:47.826] He says, "I..." He said, "I've read very, very little of the New Testament and none of the old.

29:58

[00 29:47.826 – 00:30:00.766] So I'm not well-informed about the sense and the nonsense of Christianity." So

30:04

[00 30:00.766 – 00:30:02.646] this, this person...

30:06

[00 30:02.646 – 00:30:12.826] See, so what I'm trying to say is, is that I'm taking very logical bridges, and I'm presenting them as truth,

30:15

[00 30:12.826 – 00:30:14.426] saying, "This is what Bill meant.

30:18

[00 30:14.426 – 00:30:24.526] This is where he got this." You have the opportunity now to go and get involved and actually read

30:27

[00 30:24.526 – 00:30:25.706] his stuff yourself.

30:29

[00 30:25.706 – 00:30:36.036] Because one of the things that, that I was very concerned about, uh, especially in the, in the mid-'90s and the aughts,

30:39

[00 30:36.036 – 00:30:46.216] were people that were being extremely rigid about their expression of what Alcoholics Anonymous was and how the steps work and, you know, and, and

30:50

[00 30:46.216 – 00:30:56.226] this, this idea that, "Well, do you know why it is that there's a comma there?" Wilson never was that kind of person.

31:00

[00 30:56.226 – 00:31:03.086] And interestingly enough, he never had the relationship with the book that you and I do, right?

31:08

[00 31:03.086 – 00:31:05.806] Because he knew where it came from.

31:11

[00 31:05.806 – 00:31:13.946] So it's a, it's, it's, it's really fun, so that's one of the reasons why I keep...

31:19

[00 31:13.946 – 00:31:17.146] And, and the other thing is, is Bill's a wonderful writer.

31:24

[00 31:17.146 – 00:31:19.646] And, um, it's funny, you know.

31:27

[00 31:19.646 – 00:31:23.646] People will say, "Well, you know, he didn't write the 12 and 12.

31:32

[00 31:23.646 – 00:31:33.806] It's obviously written for him." Because if you take a look at the writing styles between the two, if my writing is the same today

31:43

[00 31:33.806 – 00:31:39.066] as it was 15 years ago, you better...

31:47

[00 31:39.066 – 00:31:43.585] You know, I mean, if my understanding or as, as, uh...

31:52

[00 31:43.585 – 00:31:54.265] I can't remember who I got it from, but, uh, the person said, uh, "If when I tell my story it's the same as it was 15 years ago in AA, you better call my sponsor.

32:07

[00 31:54.265 – 00:32:04.886] Find out who I really am." Um, Tom Powers, who was a really close friend of Bill's and was the editor

32:17

[00 32:04.886 – 00:32:14.606] for, uh, uh, the 12 and 12 and a lot of Bill's writings in the, uh, the, um, uh, in the Grapevine.

32:26

[00 32:14.606 – 00:32:21.606] And again, if you don't know what an editor is, an editor is not someone who shapes ideas.

32:34

[00 32:21.606 – 00:32:24.406] It's someone who helps clarify them.

32:37

[00 32:24.406 – 00:32:27.666] It's, it's not...

32:39

[00 32:27.666 – 00:32:37.606] The people that edit my work, and, uh, and I edited, uh, uh, my wife's column in, in, in, in a newspaper for, for 10 years.

32:50

[00 32:37.606 – 00:32:40.926] It's not...

32:51

[00 32:40.926 – 00:32:47.326] An editor is not somebody who imposes their point of view on the writer.

32:57

[00 32:47.326 – 00:32:50.366] That's not what, what the job is.

33:01

[00 32:50.366 – 00:32:55.216] But anyway, Tom Powers said that Bill was very much like Charlemagne.

33:06

[00 32:55.216 – 00:33:05.286] Powers said Charlemagne was, was illiterate, but he had six or seven people that were around him that had their

33:15

[00 33:05.286 – 00:33:15.286] thumbs on the pulse of what was happening around the world intellectually, spiritually, all, all these different, politically, all these different

33:25

[00 33:15.286 – 00:33:15.526] things.

33:26

[00 33:15.526 – 00:33:25.666] And that Wilson's remarkable group of friends kept him informed on areas, uh, and allowed him to go areas in his own heart and mind

33:37

[00 33:25.666 – 00:33:33.546] that, that, uh, that, uh, he wouldn't have been able to do if he was just, just reading books.

33:45

[00 33:33.546 – 00:33:44.066] Um, so that was another thing that when I, when I intervi- viewed Powers, that was a, that was a, a wonderful thing, uh, that,

33:56

[00 33:44.066 – 00:33:45.466] uh, that happened.

33:58

[00 33:45.466 – 00:33:56.286] Um, another one of the things that, that really stunned me about Bill Wilson was his isolation.

34:06

[00 33:56.286 – 00:34:07.226] Um, by 1955, he can't go anywhere without

34:09

[00 34:07.226 – 00:34:08.206] being recognized.

34:10

[00 34:08.206 – 00:34:18.246] Um, he and Lois were basically prisoners of Alcoholics Anonymous, uh, because of his size and stature and the

34:19

[00 34:18.246 – 00:34:26.406] fact that his mug was plastered on every, uh, uh, meeting hall in the, in the country.

34:27

[00 34:26.406 – 00:34:31.986] My, my favorite story about this is one time they decide they're gonna run away to Newfoundland.

34:34

[00 34:31.986 – 00:34:37.666] Now, everybody knows here that if you're gonna go hide, Newfoundland's a really good place to go do that, right?

34:43

[00 34:37.666 – 00:34:47.306] So anyway, they find a place and they drive up, and they got a little cabin in the woods, and they're gonna be away from everybody.

34:55

[00 34:47.306 – 00:34:57.306] And it so happens that the cook sees the New York plates, and this tall, lanky guy gets out of it with his little wife, and she calls all

35:08

[00 34:57.306 – 00:35:01.926] her friends that were sober in the little town, and they all came up.

35:14

[00 35:01.926 – 00:35:03.846] You know, I mean, that's how it was.

35:18

[00 35:03.846 – 00:35:14.146] He had to, he had to leave, and, uh, uh, one of the places that they enjoyed going was, uh, um, down in the Caribbean, um,

35:30

[00 35:14.146 – 00:35:20.726] because they could find little islands that they could, they could, they could go and hide at that weren't, w- weren't real, uh...

35:40

[00 35:20.726 – 00:35:27.266] Um, another one of the remarkable finds, of course, is, uh, um...

35:45

[00 35:27.266 – 00:35:31.286] But then I'd like to...

35:48

[00 35:31.286 – 00:35:41.566] So there's a talk that Bill gives on the spiritual experience

35:53

[00 35:41.566 – 00:35:50.086] in Detroit in like 1966 or something.

35:56

[00 35:50.086 – 00:36:00.426] And, and, and in it, he's talking about how the miracle of Alcoholics Anonymous happens, and

36:03

[00 36:00.426 – 00:36:05.626] that there are all these doctors like Tebow, Dr.

36:08

[00 36:05.626 – 00:36:09.796] David Kennedy, and, and all these folks that are really-

36:12

[00 36:10.006 – 00:36:18.406] Excited about the fact that here is a methodology that is helping people that they could not help.

36:20

[00 36:18.406 – 00:36:22.566] Not only that, it's, it's, it's expanding.

36:24

[00 36:22.566 – 00:36:32.586] And so a lot of these people were supporters of AA publicly in the Saturday Evening Post, in that

36:32

[00 36:32.586 – 00:36:33.136] first article.

36:34

[00 36:33.136 – 00:36:35.926] So Dr.

36:35

[00 36:35.926 – 00:36:46.046] Kennedy, who was one of the, one of the best-known, uh, psychiatrists at the time, comes to Bill in 1944 and says, "You know,

36:45

[00 36:46.046 – 00:36:56.146] Bill, um, we should have these doctors come down to the, the, the National, uh, Medical

36:52

[00 36:56.146 – 00:37:06.446] Association and give a talk, give talks about AA and what it does and how much it helps and really, you know, get the message out through the, through the medical

37:06

[00 37:06.446 – 00:37:12.396] community." Bill says, "Great idea." I mean, Kennedy's great guy, right?

37:11

[00 37:12.396 – 00:37:22.706] So he goes and he buttonholes all these people that were helpful just three years prior, and not one of them would come.

37:22

[00 37:22.706 – 00:37:27.466] And finally he goes, you know, "What is it?

37:26

[00 37:27.466 – 00:37:37.526] What, what's going on here?" And the response was, he said from all of them, was

37:33

[00 37:37.526 – 00:37:47.566] that, "Well, you know, you guys in AA, you got this mutual support, and you got this moral regeneration that happens, and you got this

37:44

[00 37:47.566 – 00:37:53.286] spiritual stuff, uh, or this, uh, no, this religious component.

37:49

[00 37:53.286 – 00:38:03.746] But there seems to be something else going on here." Now, they, they said, "You alcoholics

37:56

[00 38:03.746 – 00:38:05.526] call it the grace of God.

37:59

[00 38:05.526 – 00:38:15.266] But what we call it, what, what, what we c- the only thing we can call it is there's an ex- X factor there.

38:10

[00 38:15.266 – 00:38:25.286] And which of us could go and talk to the National Medical Association about the grace of

38:18

[00 38:25.286 – 00:38:35.486] God?" And so this prejudice against Alcoholics Anonymous in the medical community

38:23

[00 38:35.486 – 00:38:38.866] goes all the way back, and it's not...

38:27

[00 38:38.866 – 00:38:41.146] Prejudice is the wrong word.

38:30

[00 38:41.146 – 00:38:51.206] It's the fact that they can't define it, and their entire careers are dedicated to definition, and that

38:38

[00 38:51.266 – 00:38:59.266] the three-dimensional model doesn't work with the infusion of spirit that happens in Alcoholics Anonymous.

38:44

[00 38:59.266 – 00:39:07.106] So that's, if, if there was any talk that I wanted you to listen to, if there was anything that, that I think would, there, there's that.

38:56

[00 39:07.106 – 00:39:17.326] And then the other talk that I believe is the most important one that, that's also on, on Recovery Speakers is Barry L., Barry Lynch, the guy who wrote, or Leach,

39:10

[00 39:17.326 – 00:39:22.006] the guy who wrote, uh, uh, uh, Living Sober.

39:14

[00 39:22.006 – 00:39:28.126] The name of the talk is The Origin of the Third Tradition.

39:20

[00 39:28.126 – 00:39:38.186] It's, uh, it's only a 20-minute talk, but he tells the story of the drug-addicted, cross-dressing

39:27

[00 39:38.186 – 00:39:43.646] African American showing up and Bill's response.

39:31

[00 39:43.646 – 00:39:54.046] And I think that it is the single most important talk in AA because

39:37

[00 39:54.046 – 00:39:56.406] there's only one question.

39:39

[00 39:56.406 – 00:39:59.746] Does he have a drinking problem?

39:42

[00 39:59.746 – 00:40:04.486] Not any of the other stuff.

39:45

[00 40:04.486 – 00:40:06.446] Do they have a drinking problem?

39:48

[00 40:06.446 – 00:40:16.566] And, uh, the other thing about Wilson's humility, and then I'll tell one more story after

39:55

[00 40:16.566 – 00:40:17.906] that, and I think I'll, I'll be done.

39:59

[00 40:17.906 – 00:40:26.966] The other thing about Wilson's humility that always s- he and Lois both, they never forgot where they came from.

40:08

[00 40:26.966 – 00:40:36.326] They never forgot what it was like to be baffled, drunk again, before there was a solution.

40:16

[00 40:36.326 – 00:40:46.406] And Wilson knew better than anybody how limited AA's reach was, and he spent a lot of his time not involved

40:25

[00 40:46.406 – 00:40:56.606] in Alcoholics Anonymous, um, but outside of AA, trying to look for ways that people were being helped that,

40:34

[00 40:56.606 – 00:40:57.786] uh, that wasn't AA.

40:36

[00 40:57.786 – 00:41:03.186] Because he knew that this was, this was only the answer for a percentage of the population.

40:44

[00 41:03.186 – 00:41:10.536] Now, you and I may have the experience that we know that AA doesn't work for those who, except those who do it.

40:54

[00 41:10.536 – 00:41:20.686] But even those who do it, you know, it, uh, you know, one of the things that, that's so interesting is you'll, you'll

41:04

[00 41:20.686 – 00:41:23.186] hear of some celebrity, um.

41:07

[00 41:23.186 – 00:41:28.906] Say that fabulous actor, Filmor Sem- Philip Seymour Hoffman.

41:11

[00 41:28.906 – 00:41:31.466] What an incredible gift he was.

41:14

[00 41:31.466 – 00:41:41.686] He dies of an overdose, and he was publicly known as being sober for, like, 20 years.

41:21

[00 41:41.686 – 00:41:45.546] And people say, "Oh, well, AA doesn't work.

41:25

[00 41:45.546 – 00:41:53.366] 12-step doesn't work." This man's talent was available for 20 years.

41:30

[00 41:53.366 – 00:41:56.806] He lived for 20 years.

41:32

[00 41:56.806 – 00:42:06.806] You know, uh, our friends that, that, that, that, that die, you know, it's like they had three months longer than they

41:42

[00 42:06.806 – 00:42:08.726] would have had otherwise.

41:44

[00 42:08.726 – 00:42:12.026] Why is it that we're looking...

41:47

[00 42:12.026 – 00:42:15.706] And so anyway, that's one of my favorite opinions.

41:51

[00 42:15.706 – 00:42:25.766] Um, another thing that I was very wrong about was I

41:56

[00 42:25.766 – 00:42:38.186] thought that Bill Wilson's, uh, investigation, exploration

42:00

[00 42:38.186 – 00:42:45.666] with psychedelics was based with Dr.

42:03

[00 42:45.666 – 00:42:51.326] Humphry Osmond and Abram Hoffer in Regina, Sask- Saskatchewan.

42:07

[00 42:51.326 – 00:42:58.046] And, um, incredible work.

42:09

[00 42:58.046 – 00:42:59.286] Wonderful, wonderful work.

42:11

[00 42:59.286 – 00:43:07.806] And, and, um, I'll be revisiting that after we get this film launched and all that stuff done that I've got some, some wonderful stuff.

42:22

[00 43:07.806 – 00:43:17.846] But what I've found through my following the wormhole is that that was not where Wilson's s- that...

42:30

[00 43:17.846 – 00:43:18.166] No.

42:31

[00 43:18.166 – 00:43:23.486] What I've, what I've found is that Wilson made a significant-

42:36

[00 43:23.942 – 00:43:34.332] contribution to what is now known as psychedelic therapy between 19- well, actually it was between 1956 and 1958,

42:44

[00 43:34.332 – 00:43:44.412] and the real work happened between, uh, like August 15th and November 15th of 1958,

42:50

[00 43:44.412 – 00:43:54.472] where they did a, an analysis of the effect of psychedelics on a group of, of intellectuals that were, some of them in AA, some of

43:02

[00 43:54.472 – 00:44:01.532] them not, all of whom had been involved in a spiritual healing movement, including Wilson and Dr.

43:10

[00 44:01.532 – 00:44:11.572] uh, Kohn, and Gerald Heard, and Aldous Huxley, and Eileen Garrett, and all these other amazing people that they

43:18

[00 44:11.572 – 00:44:18.992] started in '53 trying to develop a methodology that would, that would infuse Christian churches with spiritual healing.

43:26

[00 44:18.992 – 00:44:29.072] And then this medicine comes along, and so they take a look at whether or not it was, uh, it, it was something that actually

43:37

[00 44:29.072 – 00:44:30.832] produced a sustainable change.

43:39

[00 44:30.832 – 00:44:40.971] The reason Wilson took his first, uh, had his first LSD experience was not 'cause he was depressed, and not because he was looking for something to help alcoholics.

43:52

[00 44:40.971 – 00:44:51.172] It was because these people were doing this analysis of this new medicine that seemed, in some people, to trigger

44:01

[00 44:51.172 – 00:45:01.172] some kind of a, a spiritual thing that looked a lot like a, um, a sudden spiritual experience as James defined

44:11

[00 45:01.172 – 00:45:04.332] in, uh, uh, Varieties of Religious Experience.

44:14

[00 45:04.332 – 00:45:09.972] And they're casting about to try and figure out Wilson was somebody who'd had one.

44:21

[00 45:09.972 – 00:45:20.192] So when he went and had the experience, it was to find out whether or not it mirrored what he experienced in Towns Hospital.

44:32

[00 45:20.192 – 00:45:27.632] So when you read the transcript of it, it's not about depression, it's not about helping alcoholics.

44:39

[00 45:27.632 – 00:45:37.692] It's about the nature of it and how it relates to, um, the experience, the spontaneous experience that he had.

44:48

[00 45:37.692 – 00:45:47.732] So that's another project that I'm involved with, aside from this incredible, uh, privilege I have to be working

44:57

[00 45:47.732 – 00:45:57.812] with Kevin Hanlon in, uh, uh, in the Stepping Stones Foundation in doing this, uh, exposition about the spiritual experience

45:06

[00 45:57.812 – 00:46:02.832] of, uh, conscious contact, and we'll talk about that in a couple weeks.

45:12

[00 46:02.832 – 00:46:08.532] And, you know, the main thing about that was I'm down a wormhole.

45:18

[00 46:08.532 – 00:46:19.012] I, I read a couple of TM journals saying that, that Bill Wilson took T- or tried TM, but everything,

45:27

[00 46:19.012 – 00:46:24.072] all, the entire Alcoholics c- Co- Anonymous coda has nothing about it.

45:32

[00 46:24.072 – 00:46:29.952] So I can tell it as an anecdote, but I can't tell it as, as being fact.

45:40

[00 46:29.952 – 00:46:39.992] And then I meet the man who taught Wilson, uh, transcendental meditation and, uh, from

45:47

[00 46:39.992 – 00:46:50.232] there I have this incredible gift of having a, a one-hour documentary film that hopefully you'll, you'll, uh, you'll get in a couple of weeks in streaming

45:59

[00 46:50.232 – 00:46:55.092] and, uh, it might, uh, might get you to, uh, take a look.

46:05

[00 46:55.092 – 00:47:03.032] So those are just, those are just some of the places you end up when you aren't afraid to jump down the wormhole.

46:15

[00 47:03.032 – 00:47:13.372] And please, if there's anything I can do to, especially now, or any questions you wanna ask me about some of these wormholes I've been down, I'll be happy to

46:28

[00 47:13.372 – 00:47:14.412] expound on them.

46:30

[00 47:14.412 – 00:47:19.932] Um, but your rabbit hole's your rabbit hole.

46:34

[00 47:19.932 – 00:47:29.452] Go and find yours and go down it, because it has...

46:39

[00 47:29.452 – 00:47:38.752] You know, I, I say publicly all the time that I'm the most fortunate male form anyone's ever met, and I believe that with all of my heart.

46:51

[00 47:38.752 – 00:47:48.812] And it's because I've gone down these wormholes, and part of it is because people like you have been kind enough to give me the opportunity to, to, to, to

47:05

[00 47:48.812 – 00:47:53.812] do things like this so, and, and so I get to examine my life in, in this fashion.

47:13

[00 47:53.812 – 00:47:56.652] So thank you so very, very much for the privilege.

47:17

[00 47:56.652 – 00:48:00.012] Thanks so much, Jay.

47:20

[00 48:00.012 – 00:48:01.232] Great job.

47:21

[00 48:01.232 – 00:48:03.252] And now we have some time for questions.

47:25

[00 48:03.252 – 00:48:10.452] If anyone has a question for Jay please use the raise hand function and I will call on you as you raise your hands.

47:35

[00 48:10.452 – 00:48:16.492] All right.

47:37

[00 48:16.492 – 00:48:18.052] First up is Marty.

47:39

[00 48:18.052 – 00:48:19.052] You can unmute.

47:41

[00 48:19.052 – 00:48:23.992] Marty K., uh, recovered alcoholic.

47:43

[00 48:23.992 – 00:48:25.792] Uh, thank you so much, uh, Jay.

47:47

[00 48:25.792 – 00:48:32.972] I, I, uh, you know, sometimes I sit with my, with my book and I say, "Bill," I kinda stretch.

47:55

[00 48:32.972 – 00:48:43.092] Like, there'll be two things I'll bring up, is the, I find, you know, it's going out the arts of freedom and doing steps eight

48:07

[00 48:43.092 – 00:48:44.412] and nine, not just making a list.

48:10

[00 48:44.412 – 00:48:49.992] And then Bill all of a sudden on page 79, I th- I, I don't know if people helped him write the book.

48:20

[00 48:49.992 – 00:48:53.312] I didn't h- you know, think about that, editors.

48:24

[00 48:53.312 – 00:49:01.292] But anyway, and he all of a sudden tells us, "You know, these reparations are gonna take, uh, numerous, uh, types," whatever he says.

48:35

[00 49:01.292 – 00:49:11.362] But I think he was telling us, man, you know, there it is like two pages later, three pages later from 76 where, where the eighth step really starts and,

48:48

[00 49:11.362 – 00:49:15.252] you know, he's saying to Marty or anybody else, you know, "These, these aren't easy.

48:54

[00 49:15.252 – 00:49:17.222] This is not easy." You know?

48:57

[00 49:17.222 – 00:49:27.352] So I just wanted to bring, you know, these are kind of things when I'm, the book is reading me and I try to think about, you know, when Bill was thinking about people that m- m- months

49:14

[00 49:27.352 – 00:49:29.592] and years of, uh, you know, doing the book.

49:18

[00 49:29.592 – 00:49:37.932] The other thing is I don't know why w- there's certain things of history that are in the book like, you know, that says, uh, Roland has it.

49:31

[00 49:37.932 – 00:49:43.712] It doesn't do a justice to what, how we really got to second step and what Dr.

49:39

[00 49:43.712 – 00:49:46.132] Young suggested to Roland.

49:41

[00 49:46.132 – 00:49:56.432] It, it could take years, maybe n- some people never about reading the book, going to big book studies and, uh, somehow I just feel that's so vital,

49:53

[00 49:56.432 – 00:49:56.612] you know?

49:54

[00 49:56.612 – 00:50:00.112] To, that's why Roland's there in, in the book, a, a non-alcoholic.

50:00

[00 50:00.112 – 00:50:05.252] So these are just things, you know, uh, you know, I don't know how we can enlighten our...

50:08

[00 50:05.252 – 00:50:11.832] I'm, I'm glad I finally got it, you know, that, uh, almost like the same thing with Bill D.

50:17

[00 50:11.832 – 00:50:13.712] There's a lot of background to him.

50:20

[00 50:13.712 – 00:50:14.952] He just didn't make amends.

50:23

[00 50:14.952 – 00:50:17.232] You know, he was a elder at that church.

50:27

[00 50:17.232 – 00:50:19.432] And yet when will you find out these things?

50:31

[00 50:19.432 – 00:50:21.032] You come on this.

50:33

[00 50:21.032 – 00:50:31.072] You know, so I think a lot of our, you know, the maximum, you know, that we can, history that, and members need to, you know, not just do history

50:46

[00 50:31.072 – 00:50:34.232] pieces is, is we're selling ourself short.

50:50

[00 50:34.232 – 00:50:34.592] No.

50:51

[00 50:34.592 – 00:50:36.352] You know, well how do you get this information?

50:55

[00 50:36.352 – 00:50:37.702] Not just by, you know, do-

50:58

[00 50:37.893 – 00:50:39.153] From books like you were mentioning.

51:01

[00 50:39.153 – 00:50:42.253] So that, that's about it for me, and you know, there's so many other...

51:07

[00 50:42.253 – 00:50:43.453] I'm gonna call you about stuff.

51:10

[00 50:43.453 – 00:50:46.783] You know, we brainstorm together, Jay.

51:13

[00 50:46.783 – 00:50:47.713] And, uh, that's it.

51:16

[00 50:47.713 – 00:50:48.813] That's it, you know?

51:18

[00 50:48.813 – 00:50:51.993] I just feel- So I wanna, I wanna, I wanna be really clear.

51:24

[00 50:51.993 – 00:50:57.953] Powers was the editor for the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions.

51:28

[00 50:57.953 – 00:51:02.513] So was Father, uh, John Ford, a Jesuit.

51:32

[00 51:02.513 – 00:51:10.633] Um, they were both people that had real input into the, into the, uh, into the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions.

51:40

[00 51:10.633 – 00:51:17.383] He did not have an editor willingly, even though he asked for it, with the, with the Big Book.

51:49

[00 51:17.383 – 00:51:20.753] 'Cause when he sent it to Akron, they didn't wanna touch it.

51:54

[00 51:20.753 – 00:51:22.993] And, uh, if it wasn't for Dr.

51:58

[00 51:22.993 – 00:51:33.353] Howard, um, in New Jersey at the showdown that, uh, that he had with Hank and the- the few of the other elders, there never would have been the changes

52:11

[00 51:33.353 – 00:51:42.493] in the Big Book from what it is that we see, what we get to enjoy there in the, uh, in the, uh, book that started it all.

52:24

[00 51:42.493 – 00:51:48.193] Thank you, Marty.

52:25

[00 51:48.193 – 00:51:49.553] And next up is Mike.

52:28

[00 51:49.553 – 00:51:50.433] You can unmute.

52:29

[00 51:50.433 – 00:51:56.733] Hey, everybody.

52:31

[00 51:56.733 – 00:51:58.253] Hey, thank you so much.

52:33

[00 51:58.253 – 00:52:01.863] That was, uh, I just, I, I, I love it, you know.

52:39

[00 52:01.863 – 00:52:06.273] Thanks for saying, "Go, go ahead and go down the rabbit hole.

52:44

[00 52:06.273 – 00:52:10.733] It's okay." I need permission sometimes 'cause...

52:48

[00 52:10.733 – 00:52:17.873] But at any rate, I'm, there were two things you said, and damn, I'm so open-minded it went in one ear and right out the other.

52:59

[00 52:17.873 – 00:52:27.933] And, and that was, you made a reference to the Big Book, a, a paragraph, and I, I'm, I'm not sure if you said page- Page

53:11

[00 52:27.933 – 00:52:28.653] 24 ...

53:11

[00 52:28.653 – 00:52:29.593] page 24 or page 20.

53:13

[00 52:29.593 – 00:52:33.913] And one, one, one line- Right.

53:16

[00 52:33.913 – 00:52:41.033] So, so I do that to show that Wilson was not, um...

53:22

[00 52:41.033 – 00:52:48.633] In, in one letter he says, "They're treating the book as if it's holy writ." Right.

53:29

[00 52:48.633 – 00:52:58.973] And so I will, next time you hear me, I may say, "Page 28, paragraph three, sentence four." It's, it's,

53:37

[00 52:58.973 – 00:53:06.403] it's, uh, um, um, it's not that I was trying to get a, a, a particular- Okay ...

53:45

[00 53:06.403 – 00:53:06.553] yeah.

53:46

[00 53:06.553 – 00:53:07.573] Okay.

53:47

[00 53:07.573 – 00:53:07.993] Okay.

53:48

[00 53:07.993 – 00:53:13.433] And then the other thing, you mentioned two, um, recordings that are on this website.

53:55

[00 53:13.433 – 00:53:14.053] Yes.

53:55

[00 53:14.053 – 00:53:18.473] And, and I'm sorry that I mi- I missed that one.

54:01

[00 53:18.473 – 00:53:18.832] I...

54:01

[00 53:18.832 – 00:53:23.193] What, what, what one did you reference?

54:05

[00 53:23.193 – 00:53:31.773] And the other one, one is Bill in Detroit, 1966, I believe.

54:10

[00 53:31.773 – 00:53:32.713] Oh, okay.

54:11

[00 53:32.713 – 00:53:33.233] Okay.

54:12

[00 53:33.233 – 00:53:33.733] Okay?

54:13

[00 53:33.733 – 00:53:38.173] And the other is Barry L.- Yeah, I know, I know the Barry ...

54:19

[00 53:38.173 – 00:53:39.093] in Toronto.

54:21

[00 53:39.093 – 00:53:40.173] Yeah, I know the Barry.

54:23

[00 53:40.173 – 00:53:40.582] Thanks.

54:24

[00 53:40.582 – 00:53:41.073] Okay.

54:25

[00 53:41.073 – 00:53:42.733] It was the Bill in Detroit.

54:28

[00 53:42.733 – 00:53:42.823] Yeah.

54:29

[00 53:42.823 – 00:53:43.713] Thank you so much.

54:31

[00 53:43.713 – 00:53:43.993] Yeah.

54:32

[00 53:43.993 – 00:53:44.573] And thanks again.

54:33

[00 53:44.573 – 00:53:49.773] That, that thing is absolute gold in my not so humble opinion.

54:39

[00 53:49.773 – 00:53:52.053] The, the whole thing's fabulous.

54:42

[00 53:52.053 – 00:53:53.833] All right.

54:43

[00 53:53.833 – 00:53:54.453] Thank you.

54:44

[00 53:54.453 – 00:53:57.213] 1960- 6, I believe ...

54:46

[00 53:57.213 – 00:53:57.593] 6.

54:46

[00 53:57.593 – 00:53:58.033] Okay.

54:47

[00 53:58.033 – 00:53:58.582] Thank you.

54:48

[00 53:58.582 – 00:54:01.853] Tim will probably, he'll put it up in the chat for you, the, the name of it.

54:56

[00 54:01.853 – 00:54:02.533] Okay.

54:57

[00 54:02.533 – 00:54:03.053] All right.

54:58

[00 54:03.053 – 00:54:03.533] Thank you.

55:00

[00 54:03.533 – 00:54:04.093] Thank you.

55:01

[00 54:04.093 – 00:54:05.023] It was fun.

55:03

[00 54:05.023 – 00:54:07.853] It w- in fact, I'm two-hour drive from Lily Dale.

55:07

[00 54:07.853 – 00:54:08.123] Oh, great.

55:09

[00 54:08.123 – 00:54:09.873] I'm in Rochester, New York.

55:11

[00 54:09.873 – 00:54:10.973] So you've spurred me.

55:13

[00 54:10.973 – 00:54:14.093] I'm gonna take a little road trip here in the next couple weeks.

55:19

[00 54:14.093 – 00:54:17.953] I'm gonna be talking up there, I hope, in July of, uh, '26.

55:25

[00 54:17.953 – 00:54:21.513] So yeah, take a drive up there.

55:29

[00 54:21.513 – 00:54:22.313] It's great fun.

55:30

[00 54:22.313 – 00:54:23.373] It's just wonderful.

55:32

[00 54:23.373 – 00:54:23.873] Yeah.

55:33

[00 54:23.873 – 00:54:26.073] July 26th you're gonna be there?

55:36

[00 54:26.073 – 00:54:26.642] Oh, no.

55:37

[00 54:26.642 – 00:54:28.313] In July of 2026.

55:39

[00 54:28.313 – 00:54:29.713] Oh, 2026.

55:40

[00 54:29.713 – 00:54:30.173] Okay.

55:41

[00 54:30.173 – 00:54:32.733] Enjoy the film and do some stuff there again.

55:45

[00 54:32.733 – 00:54:34.353] I'll keep an eye on it.

55:48

[00 54:34.353 – 00:54:34.933] Thank you.

55:49

[00 54:34.933 – 00:54:37.453] Okay.

55:50

[00 54:37.453 – 00:54:38.642] Thank you, Mike.

55:52

[00 54:38.642 – 00:54:40.313] And next is Dave.

55:54

[00 54:40.313 – 00:54:41.193] You can unmute.

55:56

[00 54:41.193 – 00:54:45.673] Hi.

55:56

[00 54:45.673 – 00:54:46.613] Thank you very much.

55:59

[00 54:46.613 – 00:54:48.053] Uh, thank you, uh, Jay.

56:01

[00 54:48.053 – 00:54:48.673] That was great.

56:03

[00 54:48.673 – 00:54:49.673] Can you hear me okay?

56:05

[00 54:49.673 – 00:54:50.733] Yeah, yeah.

56:07

[00 54:50.733 – 00:54:51.473] All right, great.

56:08

[00 54:51.473 – 00:55:01.593] Um, yeah, what was interesting, uh, I'm going through the, uh, to be very nerdy, I'm going through the conference and pre-conference,

56:18

[00 55:01.593 – 00:55:05.853] uh, material and delivering it in our, in our, uh, area.

56:23

[00 55:05.853 – 00:55:06.873] Thank you.

56:25

[00 55:06.873 – 00:55:10.053] And, uh, and we had, uh, voted on it.

56:29

[00 55:10.053 – 00:55:16.833] And, uh, I brought up something that nobody else brought up, and I'm not trying, trying to, to tout my, uh, thing.

56:39

[00 55:16.833 – 00:55:26.833] But, uh, I wanted to ask your opinion about it, is when they were saying they were gonna change the Living Sober book, okay, one of the, uh, options

56:52

[00 55:26.833 – 00:55:37.073] or one of the, uh, requests in the long list was that, uh, was from the groups that, uh, were, uh,

57:01

[00 55:37.073 – 00:55:39.773] recovery, uh, without any gods.

57:03

[00 55:39.773 – 00:55:40.893] Yes.

57:04

[00 55:40.893 – 00:55:47.353] So, so, uh, and they had asked to, to put I guess a chapter in Living Sober.

57:12

[00 55:47.353 – 00:55:55.153] Uh, it wasn't very clear by the material that I could really get, but there was, they had made some requests for changes in Living Sober.

57:24

[00 55:55.153 – 00:56:00.693] So, um, it's funny you talk about people, you know, letter of the law.

57:30

[00 56:00.693 – 00:56:03.393] You know, what can be in there and all the tradition.

57:35

[00 56:03.393 – 00:56:11.613] You can't, you know, change any of these writings and, you know, how, s- uh, you know, how it has to stay very pure and all this other stuff.

57:48

[00 56:11.613 – 00:56:13.693] So I'm sort of on board with that.

57:52

[00 56:13.693 – 00:56:24.373] But when they got into this, uh, request for putting something in from changing Living Sober from that without any gods, I started doing research.

58:03

[00 56:24.373 – 00:56:25.893] I went down the rabbit hole.

58:06

[00 56:25.893 – 00:56:26.183] Mm-hmm.

58:07

[00 56:26.183 – 00:56:31.933] Uh, and, and I started looking at the people that submitted, uh, their request to see what they were trying to do.

58:17

[00 56:31.933 – 00:56:38.193] And I, I'm not really, you know, I'm not asking to talk about that group or, or anything else.

58:25

[00 56:38.193 – 00:56:49.373] I'm just wondering, like, I assumed, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that, you know, that didn't, some of the things that they were asking to change in Living Sober, uh,

58:40

[00 56:49.373 – 00:56:58.833] wouldn't be something that you would put in the Big Book or the 12 and 12 potentially, because it was lacking of all spirituality.

58:50

[00 56:58.833 – 00:56:59.153] You know?

58:51

[00 56:59.153 – 00:57:10.373] There was, uh, really it was, uh, that they were asking to put stuff in that was strictly methodology, no spirituality.

59:00

[00 57:10.373 – 00:57:17.673] You know, how can we put something in there to help people who are really trying to recover without having a spiritual connection?

59:10

[00 57:17.673 – 00:57:19.393] That's how I read it.

59:13

[00 57:19.393 – 00:57:20.893] It may not be true, but...

59:16

[00 57:20.893 – 00:57:28.223] So I was trying to say, o- o- okay, that, and this was my, uh, comment on the, on the topic.

59:25

[00 57:28.223 – 00:57:38.383] We, we really can't, I don't think we can put this in any AA m- you know, based material because it's really trying to remove any spirituality

59:37

[00 57:38.383 – 00:57:40.403] from this totally.

59:39

[00 57:40.403 – 00:57:46.113] Now, it wasn't clear what they wanted, what kind of chapter.

59:44

[00 57:46.113 – 00:57:51.763] And so I'll find out when our delegate comes back and they discuss it more at the conference

59:52

[00 57:52.639 – 00:57:55.279] But, uh- What was your, what was your question?

59:57

[00 57:55.279 – 00:57:58.599] 'Cause I, I got a, I could go to, like, 37 different ways with this.

60:03

[00 57:58.599 – 00:57:59.459] So what was your question?

60:06

[00 57:59.459 – 00:58:09.799] My question was, you know, my comment in the, at the assembly, pre-assembly was, uh, I'm okay, you know, the, the topic was,

60:16

[00 58:09.799 – 00:58:17.959] you know, they wanted to change Living Sober to be more, uh, you know, uh, e- uh, the language is a little, are up to date, this, that, and the other thing.

60:30

[00 58:17.959 – 00:58:27.649] And but the request from that group to change it to add stuff that was like a chapter or something on recovery- Okay ...

60:40

[00 58:27.649 – 00:58:29.639] without God, without a God.

60:43

[00 58:29.639 – 00:58:30.319] Okay.

60:44

[00 58:30.319 – 00:58:40.359] So, um, the reason I can't wait for the fifth edition of the Big Book is because hopefully there

60:52

[00 58:40.359 – 00:58:49.509] will be at least, uh, three or four stories by people that are either atheist or agnostic talking about their experience- Yep ...

61:02

[00 58:49.509 – 00:59:01.219] in, in, in, in, in, we're gonna v- Now, um, one of my close friends and colleagues is a gentleman by the name of Joe C, Joe

61:14

[00 59:01.219 – 00:59:11.478] Chisholm, who lives in, uh, uh, Toronto, who, uh, wrote a book which I highly recommend

61:21

[00 59:11.479 – 00:59:21.978] called Beyond Belief, and it's a daily reader for agnostics, ath- anybody on the 12-step path, and it's

61:29

[00 59:21.979 – 00:59:22.699] wonderful.

61:30

[00 59:22.699 – 00:59:32.739] And it is completely unsullied by, um, as my friend William Shaver would

61:36

[00 59:32.739 – 00:59:34.539] say, any supernatural beings.

61:38

[00 59:34.539 – 00:59:40.459] Sorry, I just, I just love that.

61:42

[00 59:40.459 – 00:59:50.459] Um, I had Joe come lead a retreat, and when they got to step

61:48

[00 59:50.459 – 01:00:01.899] three it was just, it was just fantastic 'cause the, all the people there were of this, uh, um, you know, free-thinking group.

61:58

[01 00:01.899 – 01:00:07.699] And, uh, to a person they didn't have any problem with the third step.

62:05

[01 00:07.699 – 01:00:12.658] They would turn themselves over to the methodology.

62:09

[01 00:12.658 – 01:00:16.779] There's no one to take it back from.

62:13

[01 00:16.779 – 01:00:26.848] You ever heard anybody in AA go, "Oh, I turned my will and my life over in the morning, and

62:22

[01 00:26.848 – 01:00:35.839] I took it back by 10:00." With our atheist and agnostic brothers and sisters, they don't have that problem at all.

62:31

[01 00:35.839 – 01:00:38.699] There was nobody to take it back from.

62:34

[01 00:38.699 – 01:00:41.939] They just love.

62:36

[01 00:41.939 – 01:00:53.179] Um, I think we

62:38

[01 00:53.179 – 01:00:56.659] should get out of the publishing business.

62:42

[01 00:56.659 – 01:01:06.759] And I believe with all of my heart that Alcoholics Anonymous should be in the public

62:49

[01 01:06.759 – 01:01:07.179] domain.

62:50

[01 01:07.179 – 01:01:18.799] And that as custodians of that message, that if somebody called up and said, "I want a big book without

62:59

[01 01:18.799 – 01:01:25.019] any male attribution in it," because of electronic publishing we could say, "Oh, of course.

63:06

[01 01:25.019 – 01:01:27.739] Here," and provide it for them.

63:09

[01 01:27.739 – 01:01:37.749] If somebody came to us and said, "Oh, I want this," or, "I want that," because, uh, that we could go, "Well, but

63:19

[01 01:37.749 – 01:01:43.479] of course." Just like we did with problems other than alcohol.

63:24

[01 01:43.479 – 01:01:46.299] We could allow...

63:26

[01 01:46.299 – 01:01:56.459] You know, I mean, the thing that I

63:29

[01 01:56.459 – 01:02:06.599] find to be most compelling about the 12 steps is

63:34

[01 02:06.599 – 01:02:16.659] that you go to any other spiritual movement and you say, "I got this problem," and say you go

63:42

[01 02:16.659 – 01:02:19.419] to confession, you said, "I did, I did this, that, or another thing.

63:48

[01 02:19.419 – 01:02:29.999] Tempted to maybe do it again." And they say, "Oh, don't do that." In

63:55

[01 02:29.999 – 01:02:33.159] AA what we say is, "No, no, you gotta go back and make that right.

64:02

[01 02:33.159 – 01:02:36.819] You gotta go pay back the money.

64:05

[01 02:36.819 – 01:02:47.439] You gotta go look the people in the eye whose, whose trust you violated." This is the heart and soul of spiritual transformation.

64:15

[01 02:47.439 – 01:02:57.549] You know, uh, our friend Marty mentioned, you know, well,

64:20

[01 02:57.549 – 01:02:58.599] this is gonna be difficult.

64:22

[01 02:58.599 – 01:03:00.579] You know, there's a long road ahead and all that stuff.

64:28

[01 03:00.579 – 01:03:00.799] Yeah.

64:28

[01 03:00.799 – 01:03:03.439] No, difficult is stealing from your kids.

64:32

[01 03:03.439 – 01:03:05.319] Difficult is stealing from your mother.

64:35

[01 03:05.319 – 01:03:09.699] You know, writing a list of who you hate, you do this every night anyway, you just don't use a pencil.

64:44

[01 03:09.699 – 01:03:19.779] But in AA what we do is that we, we actually, we do the life review

64:52

[01 03:19.779 – 01:03:22.419] incarnate that many religions talk about.

64:55

[01 03:22.419 – 01:03:24.839] We actually do it.

64:57

[01 03:24.839 – 01:03:28.679] How many lifetimes do we get to leapfrog because of that?

65:02

[01 03:28.679 – 01:03:30.419] I don't know.

65:04

[01 03:30.419 – 01:03:35.279] I just know that in this one I've been liberated in a, in a remarkable fashion.

65:11

[01 03:35.279 – 01:03:40.419] So, um, so that's, uh, that's that.

65:14

[01 03:40.419 – 01:03:45.779] Um, I think we should just be helpful to everybody that we possibly can be.

65:21

[01 03:45.779 – 01:03:51.719] And I think, um, and, and to me the challenge is, is that we're paper-based.

65:28

[01 03:51.719 – 01:03:56.059] And, uh, we're, we're, we're...

65:30

[01 03:56.059 – 01:04:06.079] I don't think AA should have anybody making decisions in it that are over 40 years old, 'cause we don't have a clue about

65:41

[01 04:06.079 – 01:04:08.539] helping the alcoholic who's coming in nowadays.

65:44

[01 04:08.539 – 01:04:14.139] We got all kinds of opinions and experiences of our own lives, but anyway.

65:51

[01 04:14.139 – 01:04:15.109] How's that for an opinion?

65:53

[01 04:15.109 – 01:04:18.019] Thanks, Tim.

65:54

[01 04:18.019 – 01:04:20.419] Thank you, Jay.

65:56

[01 04:20.419 – 01:04:22.239] Uh, next is Fred.

65:58

[01 04:22.239 – 01:04:23.479] You can unmute.

66:00

[01 04:23.479 – 01:04:26.119] Okay.

66:01

[01 04:26.119 – 01:04:27.879] Thanks, fellas.

66:02

[01 04:27.879 – 01:04:36.979] Um, Tom Powers' relationship with, with Bill Wilson was very, uh, tainted at the end.

66:09

[01 04:36.979 – 01:04:40.019] Did they ever rec- did they ever reconcile with Bill Wilson?

66:14

[01 04:40.019 – 01:04:41.139] Yes.

66:15

[01 04:41.139 – 01:04:42.939] As a matter of fact, uh, on the...

66:19

[01 04:42.939 – 01:04:47.179] Well, I don't, I, I, I don't know what you consider reconciliation to be.

66:25

[01 04:47.179 – 01:04:53.799] And, and I, and I, I, I had the privilege of, of, of interviewing Powers.

66:32

[01 04:53.799 – 01:05:04.039] I didn't ask him that question, but part of the fun things about being a member of the AA Digital Archive at steppingstones.org

66:43

[01 05:04.039 – 01:05:05.559] is that I've gotten the-

66:45

[01 05:06.059 – 01:05:15.069] Read through Lois's diary, pieces of it, and w- in one of it, a couple weeks before Bill dies, Tom Powers comes and spends a couple hours with him.

66:58

[01 05:15.069 – 01:05:17.239] Okay, thanks.

66:59

[01 05:17.239 – 01:05:18.479] You're welcome.

67:01

[01 05:18.479 – 01:05:23.199] Thank you, Fred.

67:02

[01 05:23.199 – 01:05:24.579] And next up is Kim.

67:05

[01 05:24.579 – 01:05:25.459] You can unmute.

67:07

[01 05:25.459 – 01:05:34.059] All right.

67:08

[01 05:34.059 – 01:05:39.659] Okay, sorry about that delay.

67:10

[01 05:39.659 – 01:05:40.169] Yeah.

67:11

[01 05:40.169 – 01:05:41.919] Um, thank you, and thank you, Jay.

67:15

[01 05:41.919 – 01:05:51.919] My question is, um, as far as you're aware from perhaps the transcript and maybe other writings, um, what, what were

67:24

[01 05:51.919 – 01:06:02.359] Bill's conclusions about the similarities and the differences between his, his spiritual experience in late 1934 and his psychedelic

67:32

[01 06:02.359 – 01:06:03.799] experience in '58?

67:34

[01 06:03.799 – 01:06:10.439] Well, the h- uh, '56 was the, was the, was his initial thing.

67:40

[01 06:10.439 – 01:06:11.109] Um- Sorry ...

67:41

[01 06:11.109 – 01:06:20.199] I mean, ultimately the conclusion was that, um, that in some cases it could be helpful.

67:49

[01 06:20.199 – 01:06:29.659] Um, but that, um, but his personal conclusion was that when he has...

67:55

[01 06:29.659 – 01:06:39.139] when he's describing the exper- in the midst of the experience, he's talking about the similarity, but he says things like there isn't the same majesty and the like.

68:07

[01 06:39.139 – 01:06:41.019] Then one of the things that you...

68:11

[01 06:41.019 – 01:06:43.159] Kim, did you ever do any psychedelics?

68:14

[01 06:43.159 – 01:06:44.919] No.

68:15

[01 06:44.919 – 01:06:46.019] Okay.

68:16

[01 06:46.019 – 01:06:48.459] Well, that's what happens- Well, well, very small amount.

68:20

[01 06:48.459 – 01:06:48.939] Not really.

68:21

[01 06:48.939 – 01:06:52.679] All one needs is one.

68:24

[01 06:52.679 – 01:06:54.199] But anyway.

68:25

[01 06:54.199 – 01:07:06.039] Um, but, but the, the, the thing is, is that there is a period afterwards called the afterglow, where

68:34

[01 07:06.039 – 01:07:11.899] one's perception is, one's awareness is quite different.

68:38

[01 07:11.899 – 01:07:21.939] And the unit of experience that one has when having that e- experience many times carries

68:45

[01 07:21.939 – 01:07:23.299] over for a period of time.

68:48

[01 07:23.299 – 01:07:29.019] So some people it's a couple of days, some a couple weeks, few months, but then it kind of subsides.

68:57

[01 07:29.019 – 01:07:36.059] Um, so when you take a look at what Bill's writing during the afterglow, you know...

69:04

[01 07:36.059 – 01:07:43.019] And then another thing about the psychedelic experiences is that one tends to go through an evangelical spa- phase.

69:13

[01 07:43.019 – 01:07:48.808] You know, "Oh, God, he, you know, a fully..." Y- you know, like, when people get sober, you know?

69:21

[01 07:48.808 – 01:07:52.349] They goes, "Oh, God, if everybody was doing this, everything would be fine," right?

69:28

[01 07:52.349 – 01:07:56.079] So there's, there's, uh...

69:30

[01 07:56.079 – 01:08:06.139] But, but the research that they did, that they did as a group, was that there was a remarkable similarity in the

69:40

[01 08:06.139 – 01:08:08.639] way that they articulated the experience.

69:43

[01 08:08.639 – 01:08:18.819] Their, that their experience, their unit of experience, their, um, uh, their closeness to whatever

69:50

[01 08:18.819 – 01:08:29.339] they considered the creator to be, to themselves and to their, and to others was remarkably different, uh, their experience of, um,

69:59

[01 08:29.339 – 01:08:31.979] uh, the physical world.

70:01

[01 08:31.979 – 01:08:39.179] The thing is, is that it wasn't sustainable.

70:05

[01 08:39.179 – 01:08:50.159] Um, this afterglow, this, this p- p- unity and the like, it,

70:11

[01 08:50.159 – 01:08:51.319] it doesn't last.

70:13

[01 08:51.319 – 01:09:01.419] Now, my m- my thesis is, is that the sustainable spirituality

70:18

[01 09:01.419 – 01:09:11.659] comes from helping somebody walk through the methodology that we call the 12 steps, and that the way that one keeps the light

70:28

[01 09:11.659 – 01:09:22.299] lit is by guiding people through the amends process and then having them work with others,

70:35

[01 09:22.299 – 01:09:28.899] and that this is the way that one stays sustainably spiritual for, you know, a lifetime.

70:42

[01 09:28.899 – 01:09:37.939] And, you know, I mean, I've been privileged to be f- sober h- over half the existence of the movement, and I think you can tell I'm pretty lit up.

70:55

[01 09:37.939 – 01:09:44.409] And, uh, but, but that, uh, that it wasn't sustainable.

71:00

[01 09:44.409 – 01:09:55.199] One of the other things that I, I like to mention when we're talking about psychedelics, um, you know, there's, there's, um, there's

71:10

[01 09:55.199 – 01:10:03.499] a lot of folks that, that have some interesting opinions and experiences.

71:16

[01 10:03.499 – 01:10:11.279] Um, you know, now, now it's that this is gonna be the cure for alcoholism.

71:23

[01 10:11.279 – 01:10:21.339] And, um, now this is just a way for some people to make money, and psychedelic therapy is only gonna be available

71:33

[01 10:21.339 – 01:10:22.559] for the hot bourgeois.

71:35

[01 10:22.559 – 01:10:32.939] And, and, um, you know, when I talk to the people that are, uh, that are using Bill's, uh, personal experience in,

71:44

[01 10:32.939 – 01:10:42.999] in a, in a, um, medically supervised scientific study to justify them

71:50

[01 10:42.999 – 01:10:53.099] going and, and, uh, uh, taking voyages, uh, I say, "Well, where'd

71:56

[01 10:53.099 – 01:10:53.599] you get the...

71:57

[01 10:53.599 – 01:11:01.539] w- where did you get what you took?" "Oh, well, I got it from the dealer." "Oh, really?

72:05

[01 11:01.539 – 01:11:12.019] Really?" And those substances are nothing like the substances that, um, that

72:11

[01 11:12.019 – 01:11:14.079] are administered clinically.

72:13

[01 11:14.079 – 01:11:22.739] But anyway, that's just a, a side- Thank you, Kim.

72:17

[01 11:22.739 – 01:11:23.899] Next up is Cliff.

72:20

[01 11:23.899 – 01:11:24.699] You can unmute.

72:21

[01 11:24.699 – 01:11:27.899] Cliff V., Omaha, Nebraska.

72:23

[01 11:27.899 – 01:11:28.479] Hey, Jay.

72:25

[01 11:28.479 – 01:11:29.059] Thank you.

72:26

[01 11:29.059 – 01:11:30.039] That was awesome.

72:28

[01 11:30.039 – 01:11:30.679] I loved it.

72:29

[01 11:30.679 – 01:11:35.039] Um, and I think you answered a bunch of my questions with Kim.

72:35

[01 11:35.039 – 01:11:38.559] I was, I was g- gonna ask about the psychedelic period.

72:40

[01 11:38.559 – 01:11:48.589] Um, one more question I had, I guess, would be, at the end of his research, did he find uses?

72:49

[01 11:48.589 – 01:11:55.979] Did he find anything with LSD that he felt we could incorporate into the program?

72:56

[01 11:55.979 – 01:11:57.869] Did he, did he- Well, so- ...

72:59

[01 11:57.869 – 01:11:57.869] do that?

73:01

[01 11:57.869 – 01:11:58.039] Yeah.

73:01

[01 11:58.039 – 01:12:05.219] So the, so the great thing is, is that, see, Wilson, again, he's not giving advice.

73:09

[01 12:05.219 – 01:12:16.259] And, um, the interesting thing about this, this, this, uh, this, um,

73:14

[01 12:16.259 – 01:12:19.689] this period betw- you know-

73:17

[01 12:19.986 – 01:12:30.166] In, in 1958, in the, in the winter, fall, fall of 1958, those folks and what they did and

73:25

[01 12:30.166 – 01:12:33.706] the, the, the research and the, the...

73:28

[01 12:33.706 – 01:12:35.526] You know, they recorded all the sessions.

73:31

[01 12:35.526 – 01:12:39.536] They, they had, uh, questionnaires they answered before and after.

73:36

[01 12:39.536 – 01:12:43.066] Um, they all had different agreements that he m- they made.

73:41

[01 12:43.066 – 01:12:53.346] These folks, um, all the, this, all this documentation and everything, responsible researchers

73:47

[01 12:53.346 – 01:13:02.606] after 1958 would call Wilson to ask what it is that they should be doing when they're trying to set something up.

73:57

[01 13:02.606 – 01:13:12.806] This was, this was the, the method that they used, the way that they went about it, the doses that they took, the,

74:07

[01 13:12.806 – 01:13:15.406] the different interactions with people, all that stuff.

74:11

[01 13:15.406 – 01:13:26.066] Wilson has this experience, and he's sharing it with philosophers, um, medical professionals, psychological professionals

74:18

[01 13:26.066 – 01:13:29.146] all over the world who are busy setting up different programs and the like.

74:24

[01 13:29.146 – 01:13:34.606] So, um, uh, so there's that.

74:27

[01 13:34.606 – 01:13:41.456] The other thing is, so he's never gonna say, "No, no, you- we should be doing this." Um, that's just not...

74:36

[01 13:41.456 – 01:13:52.546] He never, ever gave that kind of, um, advice because he believed in

74:42

[01 13:52.546 – 01:13:57.666] his heart of heart in the dignity of the individual.

74:47

[01 13:57.666 – 01:14:08.606] And the, the, the fruit of the experience at Towns was that

74:53

[01 14:08.606 – 01:14:18.846] the personal relationship with whatever the creator is, and that everything's

74:58

[01 14:18.846 – 01:14:19.586] gonna be okay.

74:59

[01 14:19.586 – 01:14:31.406] And, um, so he

75:02

[01 14:31.406 – 01:14:41.626] doesn't write anything saying an exogenous substance is not gonna s- uh, is not gonna, uh, provide a sustained spiritual

75:11

[01 14:41.626 – 01:14:41.966] change.

75:11

[01 14:41.966 – 01:14:42.926] I'd just like to...

75:14

[01 14:42.926 – 01:14:44.946] You know, you take a look at the group here.

75:18

[01 14:44.946 – 01:14:55.086] Um, some friends of mine, my mentors in Laguna Beach, produced

75:23

[01 14:55.086 – 01:14:59.006] over 100 million hits of LSD just in an 18-month period.

75:28

[01 14:59.006 – 01:15:09.446] Now let's say half of that got lost, but that 50 million psychedelic experiences happened.

75:34

[01 15:09.446 – 01:15:18.946] Now if that produced sustainable spiritual change, do you think we'd be living in the year, the world that we're living in today?

75:45

[01 15:18.946 – 01:15:24.746] Right on.

75:46

[01 15:24.746 – 01:15:25.086] So.

75:47

[01 15:25.086 – 01:15:26.646] Thanks, buddy.

75:48

[01 15:26.646 – 01:15:27.626] Thank you.

75:49

[01 15:27.626 – 01:15:31.326] All right.

75:51

[01 15:31.326 – 01:15:32.706] Thank you, Cliff.

75:52

[01 15:32.706 – 01:15:35.786] And our last question is Marty.

75:55

[01 15:35.786 – 01:15:36.426] You can unmute.

75:57

[01 15:36.426 – 01:15:36.846] Marty.

75:58

[01 15:36.846 – 01:15:37.696] What is it?

76:00

[01 15:37.696 – 01:15:38.986] Okay, Marty.

76:01

[01 15:38.986 – 01:15:40.246] Marty from New York.

76:03

[01 15:40.246 – 01:15:41.386] Uh, Brooklyn, actually.

76:05

[01 15:41.386 – 01:15:42.716] Brooklynese.

76:06

[01 15:42.716 – 01:15:44.346] Again, recovered alcoholic.

76:07

[01 15:44.346 – 01:15:46.156] Uh, so Dr.

76:09

[01 15:46.156 – 01:15:51.926] Silkwood had passed away, and of course we know there is no, uh...

76:15

[01 15:51.926 – 01:15:52.666] GSO knows.

76:16

[01 15:52.666 – 01:15:54.236] There have been, uh, some history pieces.

76:20

[01 15:54.236 – 01:15:59.855] But I'm curious, i- is there a, a transcript of that letter, the full letter?

76:27

[01 15:59.855 – 01:16:03.706] I mean, is there something we know that Bill, you know, had a letter?

76:33

[01 16:03.706 – 01:16:06.566] And, or did he add in those types of alcoholics?

76:38

[01 16:06.566 – 01:16:08.126] 'Cause that came from Peabody.

76:40

[01 16:08.126 – 01:16:08.696] No.

76:41

[01 16:08.696 – 01:16:12.966] You know, Bill uses a lot of those different types of alcoholics, not only doctors opinion.

76:48

[01 16:12.966 – 01:16:13.396] No, no.

76:50

[01 16:13.396 – 01:16:14.206] The Roland- Peabody or...

76:52

[01 16:14.206 – 01:16:15.526] Okay, go ahead ...

76:54

[01 16:15.526 – 01:16:17.266] there's a, there's a short version.

76:57

[01 16:17.266 – 01:16:25.145] Those, tho- I've, I've actually had the privilege of holding and reading those, those, those letters.

77:04

[01 16:25.145 – 01:16:26.986] It's the same stuff.

77:06

[01 16:26.986 – 01:16:29.066] There isn't anything added in.

77:09

[01 16:29.066 – 01:16:30.386] Okay?

77:09

[01 16:30.386 – 01:16:31.006] Number one.

77:11

[01 16:31.006 – 01:16:31.686] Yeah.

77:12

[01 16:31.686 – 01:16:32.466] So that was it.

77:14

[01 16:32.466 – 01:16:37.526] And the other thing, you brought up Roland, and I wanted to, I want to just give you a little ditty on Roland.

77:24

[01 16:37.526 – 01:16:48.346] What Roland Hazard provided or provides is the opportunity, especially for Americans, to

77:30

[01 16:48.346 – 01:16:50.986] demonstrate that you can't buy your way out of alcoholism.

77:35

[01 16:50.986 – 01:16:55.506] And he, w- we're able to do that in five sentences.

77:40

[01 16:55.506 – 01:16:57.666] You know?

77:41

[01 16:57.666 – 01:17:00.466] It nope, ain't gonna happen.

77:44

[01 17:00.466 – 01:17:11.206] And, uh, and, and that's really, especially when you take a look at, at American society in those days, or well, you

77:53

[01 17:11.206 – 01:17:15.946] could say in the present too, you know, if you got enough dough, there, you have no problems.

78:02

[01 17:15.946 – 01:17:20.066] You can buy your way out of anything.

78:05

[01 17:20.066 – 01:17:25.606] And, uh, and yet you can't buy your way out of this particular malady.

78:12

[01 17:25.606 – 01:17:35.606] So, um, if you haven't read, um, Stellar

78:16

[01 17:35.606 – 01:17:41.906] Fire by Cora Finch, Google it.

78:19

[01 17:41.906 – 01:17:43.346] There are two things.

78:21

[01 17:43.346 – 01:17:49.406] She did the most thorough documentation on Roland around.

78:25

[01 17:49.406 – 01:17:52.906] And it's, it's a number of years old.

78:29

[01 17:52.906 – 01:18:02.926] You could also go, when we had the first symposium on AA history, um, and if you Google symposium on AA history, the,

78:39

[01 18:02.926 – 01:18:07.846] the first year, which was I think 2015.

78:43

[01 18:07.846 – 01:18:11.306] Yes, 2015.

78:43

[01 18:11.306 – 01:18:18.756] Um, there, there's a recording there of her, uh, of her.

78:49

[01 18:18.756 – 01:18:24.346] And in that, um, she says, uh, she talks a lot about it.

78:55

[01 18:24.346 – 01:18:28.906] And, and there's also a, a really nice PowerPoint that she, she did.

79:01

[01 18:28.906 – 01:18:31.266] So that's, that's available for you also.

79:04

[01 18:31.266 – 01:18:36.946] Yeah, you can hear me?

79:06

[01 18:36.946 – 01:18:39.546] Thanks so much, Marty.

79:09

[01 18:39.546 – 01:18:42.006] And thank you so much, Jay.

79:12

[01 18:42.006 – 01:18:44.526] And that is it for tonight.

79:15

[01 18:44.526 – 01:18:46.446] Please join us again next week.

79:18

[01 18:46.446 – 01:18:46.876] Two weeks.

79:19

[01 18:46.876 – 01:18:48.186] Two weeks, the movie drops.

79:21

[01 18:48.186 – 01:18:52.586] Bill W., Conscious Contact.

79:24

[01 18:52.586 – 01:18:56.906] It's got William Shaber in it.

79:27

[01 18:56.906 – 01:19:04.986] It's got Sally Corbett Turco, and it's got Lincoln Norton, the man who taught Bill W.

79:34

[01 19:04.986 – 01:19:15.026] transcendental meditation, talking about his experience with Bill on a number of occasions, and some very interesting things

79:42

[01 19:15.026 – 01:19:15.746] that he said.

79:44

[01 19:15.746 – 01:19:18.466] Awesome.

79:45

[01 19:18.466 – 01:19:21.326] Looking forward to it in two weeks.

79:48

[01 19:21.326 – 01:19:27.016] And, uh, join us again next week for our conversation with a long timer.

79:54

[01 19:27.016 – 01:19:31.366] And now I will allow everyone to unmute and thank Jay.

The following is an AI-generated transcript. Minor errors may occur. The audio is the authoritative source.

Remarkable Finds A Historians Journey presented by Jay S – 2025-04-22

Remarkable Finds A Historians Journey presented by Jay S – 2025-04-22

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