Chris R. — Spiritual Experience Workshop — CA (Date Unknown)

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Source: Unidentified Historical Recording – Fellowship Review Recording 838 – Date Unknown.mp3 File: chris-r-spiritual-experience-workshop-ca-date-unknown-archive-838.mp3 Duration: 01:10:40

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This is a meeting of Cocaine Anonymous. The opinions expressed in this workshop are those of the speaker and are not necessarily representative of Cocaine Anonymous as a whole. Please help me welcome our speaker, Chris R. R.. My name is Chris R. and I'm a drug-addicted alcoholic. I came to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous November 13, 1987. I'm currently today a member of Alcoholics Anonymous and Cocaine Anonymous and any other Fellowship that will let me in their doors. We do a lot of sheep molesting in the Hill Country. I didn't figure there would be this many people up at 9 o'clock in the morning for nothing. If we had put a little alum in and said we were going to do this naked, we wouldn't have this many people. Nice to see you. I want to do a couple of things real quick before I get cranking here. A buddy of mine pointed out this literature that I got. I work for a treatment center and this literature that I have, I brought from that treatment center, we give to the patients when they leave there.

I thought I had everything on there that would have associated us with that center. There's a little tree on there that's one of our little logos and I apologize for that. I'm not trying to sell anything here, please. I'm not here as an employee of that facility. I'm here as a member of AA and CA. I want to make that real clear. For those that have already pointed out typos on those sheets, just a big old good morning, fuck you. It's amazing how fast that stuff will surface. I don't know what to tell you. I apologize. I don't type very well. What a cool deal this is. What a conference. I'm going to get an opportunity to speak to a bunch of you later in the week and I hope I get a chance through the weekend to spend some time with you. Some of the stuff I'm going to talk about this morning along the lines of this spiritual experience may seem a little controversial to you. Everything I'm going to talk about comes out of the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous and I don't know how really controversial you can get with that, but some of you, of course, I know will take exception. There's a lot of cats and I do this lecture often along these same lines and there's a lot of people that want to come into these types of workshops and discuss religion with me. I need to tell you, if that was your intention this morning, I think they're still serving breakfast over there. I don't discuss religion with anybody. I believe that Bill Wilson truly understood what he was talking about when he made this pre-opening rooming fellowship. We do have some guidelines that we go by, but your concept of higher power, if it's some little bunny rabbit floating around out there, that's your business and I'm the last one to want to split hairs with you there. Please.

I crack me up sometimes. I want to get off on a right foot here. I've got some printed literature down here if you didn't get a chance to pick up any. Basically, we're going to talk about some of this stuff, but this is not a synopsis or anything, so you don't need to pick it up now, but you're welcome to all of it after this little thing is over. We'd love to do that. I doubt very seriously if I'll be here an hour and a half. The stuff that I have to say is pretty direct and to the point. We can do some questions and stuff and y'all can go play. What a great place to do that. Boy, do y'all see the room they put me up in? Man, I talk about tall cotton. I spent some time eating out of dumpsters in Houston, Texas, brother. This cotton is tall. You know, this is, you know, and I sit in there this morning at about 530, six o'clock. I'm still on Texas time, you know, and I thought I was sleeping in and, and I'm sitting out there on the balcony and I'm drinking a cup of coffee and that, that wonderful Phoenix air. Guys, if you've never been away from Phoenix much, you need to know it's different. It's truly, it's different. And you get to experience this and I, it's difficult for me not to get weepy and emotional. I got to tell you, most of you guys in here, I know, you know, you, you, you came to throw tomatoes and that welcome. I, it's okay. You know, I love every one of you. And some of you I've met just hit. I'm here to talk about a spiritual experience and I can't do that without raising my voice. Sometimes when I talk about God, I get a little passionate and I have a tendency to say, and I, and I did, I want to tell you that I don't know. There may be some of you

[00:05:02]

in here that are psychotic and I need to tell you that by raising my voice, I'm not trying to trigger you in any way. I am not, not now nor ever have been your father. I just want to puke. I just, I, it's a tired of some of these couch boats said the bitches. I could just die. You know, I don't know. I, you know, I raised my voice and I talk about God because, because I believe in a power that changed me forever. And, and it was a power that I believed in for years. I was raised a good Christian boy. I had no problem with that. I believed in God all my adult life, but it wasn't until I came to the fellowships that I got connected to God. There's a difference guys. We need to start off right now by talking about belief in God and access to God. And some of you in this room have an access to God. Trust me. I know you personally, you, you shine with the power of God in you. That's what we're talking about, but that's the gift that bill Wilson was talking about. And I got to tell you folks, that's the gift that we don't want to talk about too much in the fellowship. And I'm going to keep referring back to this. We have a tendency to want to really want to shy away from that shit. Don't talk too much about the God shit. You'll scare away the newcomers. You know, um, I need to remind you that, that we weren't here to make the newcomer comfortable. We were here to relay a message that's going to change the newcomer's life. And if you don't have the backbone to share the testimony, then you perhaps you need to join another fellowship because we truly need your help in the trenches in our fellowships. You just going to start off pissing them off already.

Okay. Let me, let me start by saying, I've got a little, little schedule here. I'm going to try to stay on track here. Uh, alcoholics, anonymous and cocaine, anonymous, the 12 step movement, our brothers and sisters over narcotics, anonymous. We, we, we are, we don't belong to a, to a self-help program. I know there's a lot of well-meaning people out there that believe that we do. If you want to look up a big book or try to buy a narcotics anonymous book, what sections it in self-help, you know, it's like Jesus, if you want to look it up on the internet, where are you going to find it? Self-help. You've got a library of Congress.

Where do you want to find a big book? Self-help. You know, I'm a little, I'm a little disgusted that our, that our predecessors allowed this bullshit to take place. Alcoholics anonymous was never set up as a self-help program. And we've, we've allowed a lot of well-meaning therapists and, and psychiatrists and doctors. And we let a lot of people take our fellowship and do with what they want to do with it. But, but going back into history and looking at what the truth is here, AA was never set up to be a self-help program, cocaine, anonymous, trust me in 82 was never, it was not, we're not supposed to be a self-help program. It was supposed to be a spiritual program by where I get connected to a power called God.

That God removed the obsession for me to drink. And I, and I recover is that we've got an industry out there. One of which I'm a part of. I got to tell you who believes that if we can keep you sick, that's where I left my, my, my, the, the, the sweetheart that talked last night from the podium, you know, I didn't get a chance to meet her afterwards. I I'll make a beeline for today. If she's still here, cause I need to, I need to hug that woman's neck because what she said is so absolutely true. We recover from alcoholism and cocaine addiction folks. We recover the, the, the, the, the big book of alcoholics anonymous was quite clear in the first 164 pages. It never says we are recovering that's treatment center. Bullshit. My advice to you, if you consider yourself still recovering is that you might want to, like my sponsor says, finish the damn work.

Why don't you go, why don't you go finish making your men and start working with other addicts and then you can experience what it's like to wake up in the morning and not obsess about alcohol and drugs. I mean, we just got, we'll talk about it. Listen, Sunday night, we're going to talk about some of this on the podium and I can promise you there'll be a bunch of people that will be offended. That'll be upset by it. I'm not here to pick a fight or offend anybody, but I'm just trying to say, we need to get down to brass tacks and start telling the newcomer, the truth. We need to tell some of the old timers, the truth. You know, I mean, I mean, because a lot of this is correct. We teach the newcomers.

Don't we? If I shy away from talking about God in the meeting, the newcomer is going to shy away from talking about God in the meeting. They're watching me. They don't know how they supposed to know we're supposed to teach them. That's our job. And how good of a job are we doing? Depends on how many people we got saying sober. Everybody wants to advocate themselves. Everybody wants to back away from this. Like we'll cross, you know, Oh, you know, I don't have anything to do with whether you get sober or not. Listen, I understand that God is the one that removes the obsession, but get down to brass tacks. Did I relay an adequate presentation to the program to you as Bill Wilson asked me to do? Did I, did I spend time with you talking to you about what it is to be an alcoholic or an addict?

Did I help you find your truth? Did I help you find out what room to go to? Do you need to just be an AA? Do you need to go find your brothers and sisters and narcotics anonymous or cocaine anonymous? I mean, this thing of identification is, is important, but bottom line, am I telling you the truth that your ass depends on a spiritual experience or am I lying to you telling you that if you just hang around long enough and make enough meetings,

[00:10:03]

everything's going to be okay. I think I'm talking to a bunch of people in this room that know exactly what I'm talking about. Uh, folks, meeting makers don't make it. Meeting makers hang around the periphery of the program until they just can't stand the internal condition. Then they go right straight out and find them a bit, right straight out and get them a drink. And then you get to them. It's just like, just like the nice lady said last night, God love her. How come you relapse? And then you've got your list of excuses.

She left me, got fired from a job, lost the house, none of that, none of that. And then our job, let's make, let's try to get everybody on the same page. And then some of you guys can just go ahead and get up and leave. Cause you, you, you won't appreciate what we're going to talk about. Here's our little, here's our little brother. This is issue, man. I've got some of these little buttons I've been wearing them all week. Everybody comes up and says, Oh, isn't that a cute little button? Yeah. Until you know what it means. And then it puts you on the hotspot issue, man, is a little guy that we devised years ago to try to help a newcomer understand what this is about. It's not knocking your issues. It's about trying to get you to keep your issues in perspective. I got to get you guys on the same page. And then we're going to start talking about God. I got a three-part illness. One of the sheets I passed out the same sheet that my friend Robert passed out yesterday. It's a little three-part sheet that talks about the three-part illness of our disease. And on the back of the three-part solution and the same thing works in a, or in a, or C it's all the spiritual malady is the same for all of us.

Okay. I got a physical. I got, I got a three-part illness, a physical allergy. Some of you guys can relate to this. Uh, I go out and, uh, do a little bumpy poo, do a little cocaine. And then all of a sudden something kicks in me. And then I just, I feel a need to go do a bit more than I intended. Let's say that you'll put another way. I find myself going back to that old pulse machine, you know, several times in one night, you know, you see normal people don't do that. Normal people, they do a little cocaine and they go, my, that was, that was quite an experience. Let's do that again sometime. And I, and I, when I hear my, that was a wonderful experience. Let's do that again.

Immediately. Thank you. Yes. I, we, you know, do not pass go. Do not collect that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's because something triggered in me, all of y'all experienced this in, in, in, in, around your drinking, perhaps around your drugging. You had periods of long-term sobriety until you opened Pandora's box until you took one, ate one pill, did one little, how many times have we did it? I'm just going to go do a little cocaine. It's like, you know, I was afraid of my name. I went into this crack house and I said, I asked the dealer, I want the smallest rock. You got, you might as well ask for the fucking watermelon. You know, you understand what I'm saying? Cause it didn't make a difference. Cause you're going to do it all anyway. You know, cause once you put it in your body, it triggers a phenomenon of craving and you're off to the damn races. We're all clear. Most alcoholics and addicts could understand this.

We get the first one and it sets us going, but see the crazy part is, and this is the part I want to hone in on here a little bit, this mental obsession. Okay. Chris, if you know, it's that one little crack rock ad that got you loaded, then why did you go back and do it? If you knew it was just a stupid stinking beer, one beer that got you on your last bender, why don't you just stay away from the beer? You with me now? We've got an entire industry out there trying to get us to stay away from the first one. But you see the book clearly stays in the big book of alcoholics anonymous. It talks about the power of choice. We as alcoholics and addicts, the real McCoy, if you happen to be an alcoholic or an addict, the kind of the cat that's on page 21, and it talks about the real alcoholic. And if you're that cat folks, you have lost the power of choice in drink. Now you want to make a room full of people uncomfortable, go to any AA meeting or CA meeting and start talking about this. And if there's, I mean, well, I realized that back when I was using, I didn't have a choice, but today I have a choice. I got up this morning and chose not to drink.

If that's the truth for you, then you need to leave. If it's a truth for you, you are not an alcoholic and addict. If you can guarantee me every time that you can choose not to put that shit back in your body, then you're not an alcoholic or an addict. It is just that simple. These fellowships are not for people who just have a problem with this drug folks. If you just have a problem with this drug, some good therapy will fix what's wrong with you.

Go into the gym. A good woman will do wonders for your disposition. And by God, you can find them in Phoenix. I guarantee you. I never saw nothing like it. I mean, I mean, about half this room needs to leave. You're triggering me, you know, okay, so.

[00:15:02]

So what we got here, bottom line, everybody says, okay, I've lost the power of choice. Then why do I keep going back to it? And this is where everything, and this is where the little issue man comes in and our little conversation. Everybody believes the little X is the issue. Everybody believes that the reason I'm drinking and drugging is because of the issue. And we spend countless hours in treatment trying to help you with your issues.

You see, now I'm not knocking that. Listen, therapist in here, please, your degree is kicking in right now. You're getting hot. Well, we need to talk about our issues. You damn right you need to talk about those things. But you need to put this in perspective. You can talk about these issues until your you know what falls off and nothing's going to change internally. I'm suffering from an internal illness.

The spiritual malady is killing me. And until this internal condition is treated, I'm going to continue to drink. I mean, we could do it in a, we could do it tonight or Sunday night in a big old ballroom full of people and ask everybody in there. How many of you cats did cocaine when you didn't have a pot to piss in? You had no money at all. How many of you found a way to get some cocaine and drugs?

Alcohol? Yeah, absolutely. How many of you did it when you was living in a penthouse in New York City? Hired a rolling mother that had a big wad of money in your pocket. How many when you were in a great relationship? How many when you were in a crappy relationship? How many when you were in a big, had a big old Lincoln town car? How many when you were riding a bicycle? Doing it again? How many when you was listening to Metallica or Megadeth, rock and roll?

Yes. How many when you listen to Merle Haggard? Yes. Are you with me? You'll see what I'm talking about. Listen, folks, I don't know how much money we're going to throw at this, but sooner or later, we've got to get down to brass tacks. I appreciate that your issues are eating your ass and they do need to be dealt with, but understand this. The desire to drink and drug will stay with you until God says different.

Is he in Bill Wilson understood this implicitly, Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob, Dr. Silkworth, our forefather, all the cats, they finally understood the medical doctors, Dr. Carl Young. They talked about it. Let's let's talk about it. When Roland went to Carl Young in Europe, it was hopeless alcoholic lived over in the east when he couldn't stop drinking. He spent a year in psychoanalysis with Carl, excuse me, Dr.

Young. We're not really on first name basis. I don't want to leave you to believe that he's been he's been dead a few years. When Dr. Young finally told him Roland comes back to the United States and within a couple of weeks, the archives said he was loaded and the cat called him against his goddamn dog. I mean, I just spent a year in psychoanalysis trying to talk about what's going on. I left Europe with the absolute confidence that I would never drink again.

What happened? And Carl finally told him a straight truth. We create a damn thing we can do for you. That's a paraphrase. He says, basically, we try to do everything we could possibly do. What you need is a thing called a spiritual experience to treat this internal condition. This, of course, the archives are full of the stories and the letters that were written around this. Roland felt like the gate to hell and clanged around him.

It's like, what am I going to do? And he ended up in New York and Oxford movement with a bunch of cats who were having spiritual experiences working the steps. It was a forefather of our step that came through that movement and he got sober and he had a spiritual experience. And he gave that same message to a little skinny guy named Abby. I've seen pictures of him. He's a boy. You want to talk about looking like a little potbelly, little unbelievable.

Abby was. He was a. He's an absolute fruitcake. He had everything in the world going wrong for this cat, but but he couldn't stay sober. And so what took place was he got in there, had a spiritual experience, and then this will come as a shock for some of you. He didn't go back to the club and play dominoes and wait for Bill Wilson to come see him. He got on a bus and went across town and found his old high school, his old school chum, his old college chum, Bill Wilson.

The story of Bill Wilson's in the front of the book, folks, if you want to read it, it's absolutely fascinating. It's got a lot of great stuff in there to work with others with any comes and tells Bill Wilson about his spiritual experience. They didn't sit around the table and commiserate for hours. They talked a little bit about the old times. They got a little piece of identification going and then Bill Wilson started talking.

Excuse me. Eddie started talking about his spiritual experience, the thing that had changed him. Now Bill Wilson didn't get sober right off the bat. He did go to a meeting the next couple of days, the historians have it, he ended up back in treatment and through tutelage of his first sponsor, Eddie, he started working the steps. Bill Wilson was about nine days in detox at Towne's Hospital when he had his barn burning spiritual experience.

We're going to talk about that tonight. He didn't just happen by osmosis, folks. Eddie had been working nine days with a cat. He was working on his amends. He was doing his fourth step, fifth step. He'd shared his deficiencies with Eddie. He'd done a fifth step. He was on his amends in his ninth step when he had his spiritual experience in Towne's Hospital. Unbelievable.

[00:20:00]

Barn burning spiritual experience that everybody wants to look the other way from. See, we don't want to talk about it in our AA meetings because we're afraid we're going to, we're going to scare off the newcomer. We're going to talk about it. Eddie goes straight six months later. Y'all know the story gets hooked up with Dr. Bob. What did he tell Dr. Bob? Same story. Tell them they couldn't stop drinking.

Tell them exactly what took place so that the miracle would, would happen. What did they do? They went out and found alcoholic. Number three, Bill D told him how to have a spiritual experience, folks. They got sober and stayed sober. And I got to tell you, the first cat that we're getting sober, that's exactly how they were doing it. They were having spiritual experiences as a result of going out and working with other alcoholics and finishing this damn work.

The archives are full of this stuff, folks. The statistics are everywhere. Jesus Christ, man around Cleveland and Akron where these cats were working. I've got some literature up here. I can show you any of you guys. There's a little book circle in the country right now. It's real controversial. It's not conference approved. So I probably shouldn't mention it from up here, but, um, a guy named Mitchell Kate wrote it called how it worked.

It's the story of Clarence Snyder. It talks about the early days of alcoholic synonymous, and it talks about how the early guys worked with the drums and they didn't sit down and get them comfortable and share where they were at. They said, no, little, little, little buddy. We need you down here at the salvation army tomorrow night, help us carry this message back in. Well, you know, and the guy's still detoxing for Christ, then they'd come early.

You know, I mean, because we want to get this, okay, the early, the early people in alcoholics anonymous understood that we had to have the spiritual experience in order to get connected to God. And over the years, here's what happened in Akron, Ohio, folks, I won't bore you with a long stats, but in Akron and Cleveland area, they had nearly a hundred percent success rate in certain periods in the early forties.

It was absolutely. I've got tons of literature on this. If any of you want it, I'll send it to you. Absolutely amazing documentable stuff. Practically everybody that was coming into the fellowship was getting sober in garden writing. Buckaroo 80% were getting sober with me over in New York where Bill Wilson was doing. They were pulling away from the spiritual, even as early as the 1940s, they were pulling away from the spiritual roots of the fellowship.

They were under the guise of go to meetings and just don't drink one effing day at a time. That's where Bill Wilson was working on and see what was taking place was their success rate was through the toilet. The art, the letters that Bill Wilson writes, we can't, we can't get anybody sober over here in New York. We've only got 30 or 40 people sober. You've got over 300 sober over in Akron. What are you guys doing?

We're seeking God. We're seeking God. Not religion. God. Absolute connection with the power, folks. Our success rates in Texas right now are hovering around 8%. Let me run a stat by you. Just got in Dallas, Mark's seen these I'm sure. In Dallas, Texas last year, ballpark, I'm going to round these off because I don't figure so good. Too much damn speed, I guess. They gave out nearly 21,000 desire chips in a group, sold nearly 21,000 desire chips.

You with us? Three month chips. Do it one month chip, 5,500. Man now, if I'm giving, if I'm, man, what's up with this? One year chip, 1,200. We're at about 6% right there, folks. Guys, we've been tracking this in Houston and Dallas for years. Everybody's, oh, this is not scientific. You're right, it's not. You can take it with a grain of salt. But guys, the evidence is this, if better than 21,000 people picked up a desire chip and said, I want to get sober in AA, I want to get, I picked up a key tag and said, I want to get sober in cocaine anonymous, narcotics anonymous, and then we got statistics like this, the people that are staying sober one year, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that we're doing something wrong in our fellowship.

We're going to hit it hard Sunday night, folks. It's just a little, this is a leader going in a door because we got to get a bunch of people waking up and smelling the goddamn coffee. I want these cats to be able to experience what I experienced this morning, sitting on the front porch of my little bungalow over there, surrounded by a bunch of. I want people to have a spiritual experience, not so they can just not drink one day at a time.

I want them to have a spiritual experience so they can understand that God's got their back and everything they've ever wanted in this world is going to come true. And we've got a lot of people that think that's horseshit. A lot of people want to intellectualize this and talk about everything else under the sun, but we've got to get back to basics and we've got to start talking about the choice. If I wasn't for this illness, folks, I wouldn't need to be so rigid about the spiritual experience.

If you're an alcoholic or an addict in here of the disco variety and you stock on your own power, then you're not going to like any of what we're talking about this morning. You didn't have to have a spiritual experience to recover. You won't have to have a spiritual experience to recover. Just go keep doing it your way and have a nice long life and rock and roll.

[00:25:00]

I would ask you, please, to be careful what you share in my meetings, because nine times out of 10, it's bullshit. The book tells me to seek the solution with the desperation of a drowning man. The book says that I must, well, you know, there's this pesky must words again. You know, I don't understand why they keep putting those in there. I mean, I've heard more than one speaker stand up on the podium.

There was no must in the big book. You read it lately. I tell you on page 44, it says, if that be the case, they're talking about what an alcoholic and an addict is. If when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit using entirely, or if when using you have little control of the amount you take, you're probably one of us and alcoholic or an addict. Here's what it talks about. It says, if that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness, which only a spiritual experience will conquer.

Now, folks, that's not a paraphrase. It's only a spiritual experience will conquer this obsession to use unless the sanity is returned. You will pick up a pipe again. You will. You will use again for some stupid cockamamie excuse, some, some mental blank spot will come down the pipe and you will use again over and over and over why, why don't we really irritate a few of you here? Let me do this real quick.

I'm going to clear this up for some of you cats and some of you guys hadn't ever been in this book before. I could tell by the look on your face on page 35, if any of you guys have a copy of this thing on page 35, it says, our first example, the friend we're going to call Jim, I'm going to do this real quick. I'm on. It's about four paragraphs. It tells about Jim's story. Some of y'all know Jim's story about the absolute insanity of this illness, right?

Yeah. Miss V. V. No. Yeah. This man has a charming wife and family. This is like a whole room of cats. I'm talking to you right now. You, you said, if you're a woman, you substitute your name in here. It's the same. You're, you're, you're charming. The unbelief. Goddamn. I looked around that room last night. It was a little woody. God, you're beautiful. I mean, what do you got to use over your dad?

You're not dead. Gorgeous. I don't understand. Okay. This cat in here. Sorry. Sorry. He inherited a lucrative automobile agency. He's got a four record. He's a good salesman. Everybody likes him. He's an intelligent man. No more so far as we can see, except for a nervous disposition. Blah, blah, blah. In a few years, he started drinking late lot. 35 years old. You, some of you cats in here, you didn't start doing the hitting the pot until you later in years.

You didn't start playing. Okay. Third. Yeah. In a few years, this cat became so violent when intoxicated, they had to be committed on leaving the asylum. He came into contact with us. Understand. This book was published in 35 books. They didn't have treatment centers then they, they had, they had locked up nut huts for us. Truly. We ended up in insane asylums. We, we sat there and shared the, yeah.

Okay. You're sitting next to a guy that was talking to six or seven people and you were the only person in the room. That's right. We told him what we knew about alcoholism and drug addiction. When the answer we had found, not what we thought, you might want to try that. We told him, but well, this is what we know is a word. Okay. He made a beginning. What does that mean? You made a beginning. Like so many of you cats do in this room.

You, you do a third step prayer. You ask God to be your father, right? His family was reassembled. Here's what happened. God, the money, the good shit starts happening, right? Little wifey food comes back. Okay. Get the job back. He began to work as a salesman for a business he had lost through drinking all went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life. He failed to enlarge his spiritual life means he didn't have a spiritual experience.

We have a spiritual experience as a result of working the steps, folks cleaning out the goddamn garbage in the fourth and fifth step. Right? Going to make them in. That's, that's how we had the spirit. Go work with others. Give up. Give. To his consternation. He found himself drunk a half a dozen times in rapid succession. I bet he was on each of these occasions. We worked with him. He told us what had happened and he knew he was going to go back to the asylum paraphrase.

Yet he got drunk again. Okay. Here's his story. Now you stick with me. I'm going to wrap it up here with this. He said, he, I came to work on a Tuesday morning. I remember I felt irritated that I had to be a salesman for concern. I once owned. Right. Where's the gratitude. He thought he ought to be on the street for the shenanigans he pulled. He's got a job, but he's pissed that he ain't president no more.

Right. Where's the gratitude. Ain't grateful for Jack. Okay. I love it. It's Tuesday morning, folks. There's nothing special going on. Nothing external to trigger him. just a Tuesday morning for Christ's sake. The coolest line in here that's underestimated, Bill Wilson, I don't know how you got away with it. I had a few words with the boss, but nothing serious. He didn't have a few words with the boss, did he? He told the boss to kiss his ass. Yes, you've done it, I know.

[00:30:00]

Brothers, you may not be a drug addict, but you look like a drug addict. You are me. You are me. There are times, no big deal, there's nothing there to trigger a guy except he's in a bad place spiritually. He's irritable, restless, and discontent, which is what the doctor's opinion says, defines the illness. Okay, okay, you order a sandwich and another glass of milk. Italicized writing. Y'all know Bill Wilson, when he starts getting squiggly, he means pay attention, right?

First word in that paragraph, greatest word in the book. My sponsor pointed it out to me when I, unbelievable, suddenly, suddenly, suddenly, suddenly, suddenly, suddenly, the thought crossed my mind that if I were to put an ounce of whiskey in my milk, it couldn't hurt me on a full stomach. I ordered the whiskey and poured it in the milk. I vaguely sensed it. another. This went so didn't seem to bother me, so I tried another. Come on, guys, the guy gets loaded and he goes on. He said he had much knowledge about himself as an alcoholic, but all reasons for not using got easily pushed aside with some stupid cockamamie excuse that he could pour it in the milk and everything would be okay. Now, guys, haven't we done that? I mean, the book says if that's not plain insanity, what is sudden? Suddenly, Jesus Christ, he didn't a gradual sense of doom crept over me and I realized I was on rocky ground and I rushed to the car and got my triggers list out and called my sponsor.

Jesus Christ what he didn't say that did it? It said, suddenly the thought crossed my mind that as a crack addict I could probably drink a beer. Isn't that right? Suddenly the thought crossed my mind that the natural herb marijuana would be perfectly okay for me to do. Just something to knock the edge off. And then six hours later you're in a crack house with a grapefruit sized rock melting over your hand.

I don't understand. Come on guys we've got to get this. Suddenly, guys if you could think through the drink, if you could be guaranteed to keep yourself out of hot water every damn time, you don't need to be in these rooms. Alcoholics and addicts we have lost our power of choice. Every one of you in this room is an alcoholic and addict are going to reach a point where the book calls a mental blank spot and you're not going to have any defense against the first drink.

Your mind is going to say it's time for a drink and you're going to do it. It's time for a drug and you're going to do it. Whatever cockamamie excuse you decide to use, trust me, when you come out the other side and sober up again, you're going to say I cannot believe I put that shit in my mouth and drank over that stupid, stupid situation. Y'all with me? Okay, I'll say it, we're going to talk about it later.

Guys, we've got to stop trying to arrange our life out here so that we can be okay in here. Listen, I know the relationship is driving you nuts. I know that the money is crazy. I know the molestation is terrible. I know the rape is… That's what we have good therapists and good friends in this fellowship for folks. You need to work on all of this. But I'm going to tell you right now again, please put it in perspective.

Unless you have the spiritual experience, thank God, the best news I can give you folks, the best news I can give you in this room is not one son of a bitch in this world has to change for you to be okay. Nobody has to change so that you can be okay inside. You don't have to get the hubby back or the wife back or have the kids or you don't have to do any of that to have a spiritual experience and be taken to the fourth dimension.

Thank God for that. Absolutely. Absolutely. But we sure got a lot of people in meetings who want to talk about everything else under the sun except that spiritual experience. The early days of AA, folks, we were on fire with this thing because we knew we didn't have much time. We knew that we didn't have time to easy does it and take it easy. We had to get you guys to God. We had to get you guys to God quick and that's what we were trying to do.

Okay. One of the things that we. Two things I got to talk about here and I'll let you guys go ask questions if you need to. In 1987, after a suicide attempt, I was not a happy camper and I have spent all of my money on cocaine. I have spent all of my money on alcohol. I can't pay the rent. Rent checks bounced one more time. I got hot checks everywhere. November 13th, 87 colder than hell outside. I got a little little apartment.

I hate my life. The depression is killing me. I'm so paranoid I can't go to the store anymore to buy food. I'm convinced the little man at Kroger is well, y'all know what I'm talking about.

[00:35:05]

He's a plant there, you know, and I don't know. I'm not a happy camper and I try to commit suicide and I and I boarded at the last minute. I said, Chris, you know, you need to go back to the fellowships. You know, you never really gave it a chance. And basically I'm a coward. I didn't want to die. I want to live, folks, but I can't live in this in the condition, the spiritual condition that I'm in.

So what took place is I ended up in a room full of people who all carry big books and they were alcoholics in that room and they were addicts in that room. It was an AA meeting, but they all understood where we were coming from. No, we didn't talk about drugs in those rooms. It was singleness of purpose. I'm hip with that. But we did talk about God in the steps. Hallelujah for that. And I've been around AA for eight years, folks, and nobody had talked to me about that stuff.

They wanted me to come to the fellowship, get comfortable, and then somewhere down the line we'll do the work. And these guys didn't say that. They knew maybe that look on my face that I didn't have six months to get comfortable. I was going to die if I didn't lose the obsession to use. I come on, guys. You know, I call it an accident. I mean, we we go. We end up doing things that we said we would never do.

I mean, I've done it a thousand times. God, if I ever drive that piece of shit truck like my father drive, I'll stop. God, if I ever find myself hooking on the street, I'll stop. God, if I ever find myself going to work loaded, I'll stop. God, if I ever find myself abusing a woman, I'll stop. Jesus Christ. We just keep raising the bar, you know. You can't live in your skin if you do that stuff too long, folks.

Let me tell you, if you're brand new, understand I'm with you. That's what this is about. These cats said, Chris, you've got to have a spiritual experience if you want to recover. You don't have time to get comfortable. So they started me through the steps immediately that night. Within two weeks, I'm up to my butt in the fourth step. I'm already in the fourth column on the fourth step seeing my part for a change.

I jumped around. I had a sponsor that said, Chris, you don't have time to not make some of these amends. You've got to get some of this heat off your ass. We're going to go ahead and make some of these amends now. And I know that some of you will, your skin will probably be saying that. But I started making some amends right off the bat. I had to get some relief. And the miracle started taking place.

And he had me praying and meditating and had me coming up early to work with others. I hear people in this fellowship, folks, and I tell you, Sunday night, we're going to hit it hard. You can't work with somebody who hasn't been sober long enough. If you don't start working with somebody, you won't stay sober. Yeah, you know, it drives me nuts. You got all these little guys out here, you know, with little tags on, working as H&I, helping out.

That's why they're going to stay sober, folks, because they're unbelievable. Here's what happened. Some of you all have heard me talk about this. I got out of my truck in North Texas after a 6 o'clock AA meeting. It was about 7 o'clock at night, 730. And a really cool night up in North Texas. It's colder than hell, in fact. There's no wind going. But I got out of that truck and I realized instantly that something was different.

I got, I just got out of my truck, suddenly took place. Suddenly, the thought crossed my mind that I'd never have to drink again, that I never had to do cocaine again. And I had to steady myself on the side of that pickup truck because I felt so out of my body. No white lights, no Jesus walking through the parking lot, just the absolute certainty that the desire to use had left me. Spiritual experience, number one for me, blew me out of the water.

I've talked about it on every tape I've ever done. And I went up to my apartment and I cranked up some hot music and I watered my little plants and them damn dishes that had been stacked in the sink. And it's been for nearly 13 years now. It's been an absolute miracle. Why was I around the fellowship for eight years and couldn't get sober? Because I couldn't have a spiritual experience. I didn't have a spiritual experience.

It wasn't about anybody else. It was about me not wanting to do the work to get connected to the God. I walked into the rooms the next day and told the cats what happened. And I got to tell you something, folks, for the first time in my life, they didn't put me down and they didn't poopoo me. They said, buddy, you had a real spiritual experience. Welcome to the fellowship. In the back of the book, there's an appendix that I think is killing a lot of people.

That is my opinion. It's saved some of you. William James's excerpt talking about the educational variety, spiritual experience. This is the loophole that so many of you get through. We're not all going to have barn burning spiritual experiences. Some of us are going to have the spiritual experience of the educational variety. I'm hip with that and I agree with that. I understand that. But let me tell you this.

Bill Wilson had a white light experience where he saw a vision. Chris Rammer got bowled over by the feeling of the absolute certainty that the drink had been removed and the drug had been removed. You know with me, whatever spiritual experience you have, it will be so fucking profound. You can't stand it. It will blow you out of the water. Your life will never be the same. You will be changed exactly what the book says at a level of attitude and thought.

[00:40:03]

Everything will shift. One day you will hate your brothers and sisters. The next day you will love them. One day you will be so full of fear. You piss your pants. The next day you will have some power in your life. Now, I don't care if you've got it from a book or an experience in a church. The experience may be different. The results are the same. We sit here in this fellowship and we watch our alcoholics and addict brothers and sisters walk meander through these rooms, never having a spiritual experience, and we let them off the hook.

We need to start holding these cats accountable. Brother, you deserve the same kind of spiritual experience I had. You deserve the real McCoy. You want to water down BS bullshit thing. You want somebody to let you off the hook and tell you that maybe your experience is just going to come from education, right? You're just going to think your way through that. That is not a spiritual experience. The book says quite clearly in this book, says it on four pages that I counted.

Self-knowledge avails us nothing. We had much knowledge about ourselves, but all knowledge fails to keep us sober in that mental blank spot where we needed God. God must stand between me and the drink, folks. Less on my own defenses, my own power. I get drunk. I proved it for years, folks, 18, 19 years drinking and drugging. I proved that I couldn't do it on my own power. I proved I couldn't do it through therapy in the church.

When I got off my dead ass and submitted to the process and followed some rules that some of my brothers and sisters showed me in the fellowship, I had a thing called a spiritual experience and I recovered. Unbelievable. And guys, the room is going to be pretty well evenly divided. There's some of you in this room that have had the experience and some of you haven't, but I'm going to ask you to do this.

If you haven't had it, you might want to come talk to me and visit about it. But please don't in your intellectual pride, look around at somebody that has had it and put them down for it. Please, the next person that I hear come up to me and talk to me about a fucking pink cloud is going to get cold cocked. No, if you if you you sense a little irritation there, you need to understand it. You need to understand it.

There's no such thing as the pink cloud. You know what it is, folks? It's called God's grace. An alcoholic, an addict as badly burned as we were comes into the fellowship and you better have a taste of the miracles that are going to come or you won't stay around these rooms and God simply because he's such a wonderful power, because creator of the universe knows he gives us a taste of what life's going to be like.

Most of us don't even have to do the work to get that first taste. It is not a pink cloud, folks. It's a spiritual experience and you need to grab hold of it and you need to understand what caused it and you need to understand who you're praying to and you need to stop taking it so goddamn lightly because people out there today in Phoenix are dying because they haven't had it yet. And somebody could have come up with trivia like this.

It drives me crazy and treatment. I see it all the time. I see it all the time in my in my amen. I got a little girl coming in. She'll just tears coming down. You can't believe the cool day I had. Let me tell you about my day. Everybody rolls a fucking knife. Oh, man. Boy, she on a pink cloud. Boy, boy, when she falls off that pink cloud, she's going to bust her ass. This you sanctimonious son of a bitch.

Don't you ever say that it's it's God's grace. It's God's grace. It's the miracle of waking up and not obsessing about the drink. The miracle finally looking yourself in the mirror and realizing that you ain't a piece of shit, that you've got something to offer somebody next to you, that you can do this thing called life. It's a miracle. Absolute miracle. It's a miracle that the old timers talked about when we first got to this fellowship.

And it's a miracle that we've gotten away from because we're too busy trying to work on your goddamn issues. I'll say it right now before anybody comes up. Chris, I need to talk to you about your cousin. How can you talk about God and cutting the same deal? Because I can. The guy that I got hooked up to 13 years ago is not a punishing God. And I can look at you good looking women and say. One more real quick little thing.

I'll let you guys out of here. One of the coolest things about this thing is that this, this experience, some of you new guys that are in here, you find this real, real controversial because I know that we've tried to shield you from it in the fellowship. You know, y'all seen it in the meetings a thousand times, a guy will come into the meeting and he's got a brand new Lexus in the parking lot. He just got a big old pack promotion.

He ain't done no crack cocaine in ages. His life is good. You're with me. He comes in and says, guys, guess what? Look out in the parking lot. She's like, I got a brand new Lexus. Everybody goes, yeah, that's nice. Who else? Next guy was good with this. Well, you know, my wife just left and… Oh, yeah, and then the whole meeting. Let's talk about this. Shame on you. Shame on you. Folks, you need to see this, that God is good.

The book says that we're going to be happy, joyous, and free. The book says that God's going to take care of our needs.

[00:45:01]

God says, third-step prayer. We'll talk about it later. God's going to be our new employer, He's going to take care of our stuff. How in the hell do you think most of us can afford to sit in this place? Because God takes care of His kids. I mean, let's just get straight, where do you think all this good stuff comes from? My sponsor's jammed me when I first got connected with him five, six, seven years ago.

He got straight with me and said, Chris, where do you think that nice house got to? Where do you think you got that little rock house? I said, God! I knew this was a trick question. I knew I had him, you know. I said, God gave me that. Where do you think Jeannie came from, that nice wife of yours and that nice stepson of yours? Where do you think you got all that good stuff? God! Where do you think you got that great job where you get to work with alcoholics and addicts every day and get to love?

God! He said, Chris, how much time did you spend in prayer and meditation this morning? I said, fuck you, Mark. Because the truth of the matter is, I spent about two seconds in prayer and meditation. You all with me? You with me? And I took that humiliating conversation and I got on the spiritual path at that point and started trying to build this relationship with God. My connection with God continues to grow thanks to that conversation.

Thanks to a sponsor that cared more for me and my relationship with the power than they did my sensitive little feelings. And today I meditate at least 30 minutes a day. Mark will be talking more about that in his workshop later this afternoon, I'm sure. I just need to tell you guys, you either have had this spiritual experience or you have not. It's not something that you have to sit in this room and wonder.

Have I had this spiritual experience or not? It's not. If you are wondering that, you haven't had it. I'm not trying to be abrasive with you. I'm just trying to tell you, you haven't had it. Stop accepting second best, please. Just because you have this spiritual experience, it doesn't mean that you haven't had it. Stop accepting second best, please. Just because, you know, you come into the fellowship and they say, Well, you haven't drank today, have you?

Well, no. Well, at least you, you know, big fucking deals. You know, so what? You haven't drank today. Don't, you know, Mark says, I smell more. I smell more. Don't you want to be happy, joyous and free, getting the good stuff? Don't you want to feel the power of God in your life? Then do what we ask you to do. If you haven't had the experience, come see us. These sheets talk about it. One of the handouts that I gave you, Bill Wilson talks about it on there.

Bill Wilson talks about it, about the first spiritual experience being the beginning, not the end. I'm not living off an experience I had 13 years ago, folks. I don't say this pumped up about God because of that. I say this pumped up because of an experience I had this morning on my balcony in Phoenix, Arizona. We want to assume that some of us are going to have this experience and some of us are not.

And again, that stuff that our meetings are perpetuating and we need to stop that. The book says and the literature says throughout history that every person that seeks the power will find the power. The problem is we don't have enough seekers. We've got a lot of people that want to sit on their ass and whine and feel sorry for themselves. But we don't have too many people that want to stand up and say, I want to go where the light is.

I want to go where the power is. I want to get past this abuse. I want to get past this. I don't want to just put it to sleep. I want to get past it. See, that's where God takes you. That's where the spiritual experience will take you. And it's the absolute coolest thing you will ever do. You've got a choice today, I can assure you. You can continue to seek the power and understand it's the power where we get the stuff.

Or you can continue to try to intellectualize and fix yourself. Lots of luck. When you were so badly burned by this disease, folks, the travesty is not that you will go back out and pick up a pipe again. The travesty is that you will stay in these rooms bone-powder dry and be so miserable you can't stand it and never experience the miracle of this fellowship. I came to the fellowship believing that some of us were supposed to be happy and some of us are just supposed to be miserable.

And thanks to good sponsorship and people like you, they said, no, Chris, you can have a good piece, too. You can get out there and kick some butt, too. But you've got to get up off your butt and go get it. You know what I mean? You think, well, it's not that simple. Yes, it is that simple. Because you don't have to do it by yourself. I didn't do it in 1987 by myself. I had a room full of people who had already had a spiritual experience pulling me with a vision of how to have it.

That's our job today. You cats that have had it, to pull the ones that haven't. Because we've got an uphill battle out here. We've got an uphill battle. One alcoholic working with another alcoholic. One drug addict working with another drug addict. One guru that's had a spiritual experience with a light shining in his eye going and talking to another one who's dead. What an honor to get to do that.

Thank you so much for being here.

[00:50:04]

Did anybody want to do any questions on this? It's one of those things that's kind of weird. Alan? You talked about working the steps more than once. What do you think about that? Did you all hear the question? Alan was talking about working the steps more than once, which is a real novel thing in some meetings. Some groups, you know, you work the steps once and that's it. It's my belief personally that I believe that God intended for us to continue to stay on that spiritual path or to continue to do this work.

The book says I can't live off an experience I had last week. Truly, the good looking women last night are gone. Tonight, they'll come back. Now, I can go home and live off what I saw last night or I can come back tonight and get another eyeful. Perhaps I can come up with a better analogy, but you get my drift. Work the dadgum steps. Work and rework the steps. Every time I work the steps with a newcomer, I'm right there in the trenches.

I believe in absolute personal sponsorship. Getting with the cat, working in through the steps. I don't believe this stuff. Here, read these pages and call me tomorrow. I mean, sitting down and doing the work. And when we do that, each of our own turn gets to do that. I believe it's the coolest. Anybody else? That's the only reason the steps are in place, brother. The steps are in place not to fix me.

The steps are in place to get me connected to God so that God can fix me. Everybody says, well, that's splitting hairs. It's all the same. No, it's not. It removes the obsession to drink. I tried for years to fix me. Best therapy money could buy. Truly. Right up to the point where they hooked the little electrodes and tried to shock my ass. I mean, they were trying to get me to… God took me to a different place.

Like that. And that's what we're trying to accomplish in treatment. Is get the cats in a good, safe place so they can detox. So they can get on the spiritual path. That's exactly what… And if they're not, you're in the wrong spot. Because that's it. That's it. A, don't get me sober, folks. Cocaine Anonymous, don't get me sober. Treatment, don't get me sober. God gets me sober. Good therapy can get me there.

Good therapy, though, can put me in a place where I can be conducive to that power. Where I can see it. Get all the distractions away from me. All the screaming kids away. All the traffic. All the bills. For just a short period of time, I can focus on one thing. You know, which is my relationship with that power. That's why I'm such a proponent for treatment. Bill Wilson was a huge proponent for treatment.

And treatment centers, I tell you guys, take a lot of flack from people in the fellowship. And I got to tell you, where the problem is today is not in treatment. Where the problem is today is in our fellowship. What you got, Mickey? Can you go on and explain powerlessness and the necessity of getting involved? Because I speak to a lot of people and they have no idea what powerlessness or what it involves.

And they think they do. Yeah. I can see that. Absolutely. The opportunity to thrill Mickey from the podium. This is a red letter day here. This is red. I can only sound very briefly on it, just very little, because it's pretty cut and dry for me to see the deal. Basically what took place for me eight years in the fellowship is that nobody would allow me to… Here. Nobody would allow me to see my truth.

We would talk a lot about little war stories and stuff, but we never would get down to brass tacks and answer some truth about these two words right here. Control and choice. If I hear what you're saying, I believe that intellectually, mentally, you can hit a bottom long before you end up hooking on the street. I believe some of us that have ended up hooking on the street absolutely have some vivid memories to share.

But the point that the book wants to reiterate over and over again on page 24, it says, you won't even remember the consequences of a week or a month ago. I mean, you're not going to remember my stupid-ass war stories. How are you going to remember your own? You know, you've been vice versa. Basically, the bottom line is, I know that for me, I had to do the things that I needed to do,

[00:55:01]

but it wasn't until 1987 that I had a cat come and explain to me the physical allergy and the mental obsession and the reason that I kept going back to this stuff. Yes, the two-part illness. This is the main crux of it right here. The solution is the spiritual solution. I agree with where Mickey was coming from there. Absolute clarity there. But this is the solution, the spiritual piece of this. And some of you guys, I know you're uncomfortable, because every time I say the spiritual, you're thinking church and this and that.

I'm not going to go there with you today, but I'm saying a connection with this power. I don't have the power of choice to drink. You guys in here, right now, we don't have much time, but if I could spend a minute with each and every one of you, I could ask you some questions about your last relapse. I could ask Mickey about his last relapse, and I can assure you he could tell me everything that led up to that last relapse.

He could tell me what he drank. He could tell me what he was wearing, how much money he gave the guy. He could tell me what kind of dope it was, how much he shot, how much he paid for it. Y'all with me? And so we use this and we say, well, I chose to do that. The book talks about being an alcoholic and drug-addicted-induced insanity. When you're in that place, yes, I understand it. Jim, with all the stuff hanging over his head, fixing to lose, he went and did it anyway, didn't he?

Not a thought came to the mind about a wife and a business and the promises he made about going back to treatment. He didn't think about any of the goddamn consequences. All he thought of was, hmm, this might work. This might work. Why did he feel that way? Because of this internal condition eating his ass. He's so disconnected, he feels so uncomfortable, he can't stand it. Alcoholism and drug addiction tells me that I've got to drink.

Guys, you've got to get straight with me here real quick so you can clear this up. Alcohol and drugs is not my problem. Cocaine's not Mickey's problem. It's been his solution. You know, but you guys, I mean, for years, the family members come in, if we could just get him to stop smoking crack, he'd be okay. No, he'll be worse. You take away our drug of choice folks and we come apart at the seams. You take away the booze from me or whatever.

I don't get better. Oh, my external world gets a little bit better. I get a little car, I get a little money. You know, I get some insurance, you know. That elusive thing that alcoholics and addicts can't seem to get. I get that stuff, but the internal condition gets worse and I end up pulling it all down on my head. And a lot of you guys can relate to that. Did I get close to what you were asking, Mickey?

They did a talking game. Okay, yeah. What's your question? That's you. I work with a lot of new people that come out of treatment centers. How far do you think you cross the line when you're pushing them? I push the steps a lot on people, right? Folks tell me they walk into a course of vigorous action. Soon as we go to that Thursday prayer, they keep stepping on it. How far do I push it once I cross the line?

Do I just move on to the next person? Yeah, because you see, you can't push anybody. Those cats in 87, finally, after 8 years in and out of foster care, they said, the problem was that nobody was telling me what I needed to do. They said, Chris, here's what it is. They showed me that page. Are you willing to do this work? And I remember coming back with some cock. Well, I'm willing to do it to the best of my ability, which is a catchphrase for, fuck you, I'm not going to do it, you know?

I'll do it right up to the point it gets uncomfortable, then I'm not going to mess with it. I just tell them straight, you want to do the work with me, we're going to start, we're going to get you through this, and we've got about a few weeks to play with this, and then we're going to get you connected and bye-bye. And then you're going to go help somebody else, and that's what we do. I'm not going to be your permanent therapist.

If the cat comes out of treatment and he's not ready to do the work, go to the next one. We've got too many people dying out there who are not hearing the message. And from what little I've talked to you, you know the message, and we need you in the trenches. We don't have time to be… I'm not selling anybody aluminum siding up here. I mean, I'm not trying to sell you anything. If you want what we have, if you want to wake up in the morning and know that God's in charge and He's got the very best for you planned, let me show you how to get it.

That's the message that we carry. That's the only message that we carry. And we probably don't have enough carrying it. You with me? Yeah, get him, get him. What you got? Toronto. I didn't hear you, Tony. Sponsorship's the key. Sponsorship's the key. If I could get this spiritual awakening by reading about it, I would have read it. Guys, I'm going to tell you something. I don't have a college education, but I'm probably one of the most well-read buckaroos you'll come across.

That's what I would do. I'd get fucked up and stay up all night long and read. I am a reader and I am a student, an avid student. I know a lot about spiritual stuff, but I don't know what it's like to be connected. You all with us? Again, it's the difference between experience and knowledge, And a sponsor who's had an experience can show you how to do that. If somebody's… What are you ladies… How many of you in here have ever been pregnant before?

Raise your hand. I'm getting in trouble doing this shit. Okay. Okay. You're not three ladies in a row. Y'all have all been pregnant. Okay. But let's say… Let's say that I want to know something about being pregnant. And I can assure you, I don't.

[01:00:48]

Connected to Me, Working with Other Alcoholics, I Don't Have Time to Babysit Anybody, and a sponsor, as far as I'm concerned, is not a babysitter. Mark Huston sponsored me for seven years. We see each other fairly often. We talk on the phone a couple times a week. He's still one of my dearest, nearest friends. Are you with me? But as far as just on a daily basis, no, no, he didn't have time for that and I don't have time for that.

We need to go help others. You all with us? This is not a sponsorship workshop. This is not a sponsorship workshop. I can't, I can't, I'm not even going to go there. I don't know. Yes. Welcome. Thank you. I would like to know how you feel about that because a lot of times I, and you need a sponsor or someone that knows about this, how do you feel about this? I think spirituality is the key. You know, the spirit life of the spirit is everything. So a lot of times it's hard, I find it hard to get someone to understand that the worst spirituality is not understanding the total self.

And you need to interfere and do things if you don't know the total self. This journey will go on forever. Guys, it's the coolest thing. What happens is that when we work these steps, the first experience, let's say we work the steps and the desire to use is removed from us and we have that first spiritual experience where we begin this recovery. Here's what takes place. The journey continues to go long after that. And you can go in any way you want to go with that journey, folks.

This journey is going to take some of you to the clergy. This journey is going to take a lot of you back to the church. It'll take some of you. How cool is this? What I want to say is that our job is to get you on the path. And if we don't get you on the path, then I think as a fellowship we haven't done what we were supposed to do. And what you do after that, I'm a huge proponent of therapy. I come up here and talk about issues and people think I'm making fun of therapists.

Therapy is some of the greatest stuff in the world. Therapy and early sobriety can sometimes be a travesty. Exactly from what you're talking about. I've got to put the goddamn fire out first. It's like triage. My ass is on fire. I need some help now. There is plenty of time to talk about mommy tomorrow. You with me? But right now, I've got to get connected to this power. I've got to feel inside that there's something changing in me so that I can stay sober.

I'm right with you. I think I'm right with you if I understand what you said. Real quick, we've got to close this up real quick. We've got a couple more real quick. Go. Last question, I just want to share this with everybody. I was in a youth center, outpatient, five days sober. Somebody gave me a list of things to do. I was inspired. Please tell me you're sober today. I couldn't get enough of that tape. When I heard you talk, it was like opening a door to let me see what was on the other side. Listening to you allowed me to blend into it.

[01:05:18]

My life has never been the same. I'm getting choked up almost every time. I know that you've been a kind of catalyst for my sobriety. I appreciate what you're doing for me. I've heard messages from the podium and reading in the book, and they talk about a spiritual experience. Do you believe that a primary single experience can be a long time cure, or should there be continuous spiritual experiences for growth, or would you just want to let the stagnation and complacency?

This little sheet that I gave out, Bill Wilson's little excerpt from a letter he did, A.A. Comes of Age, talks about the spiritual experience can't stop with the first one. But I've got to mention something real quick, and we'll close this up. Six months ago, eight months ago, when they approached me to do this little workshop, I started asking people, long-term sobriety in the fellowship, new sobriety in the fellowship, in both fellowships, A.A. and C.A. and N.A.

I asked them about their spiritual experiences, because I wanted to get some input in this. And I've got to tell you, without exception, and this is a little controversial, but without exception, of the hundreds of people that I asked, every single one of them could explain to me an event, a time when they knew that it had taken place. And that's why it drives me crazy, because in our meetings, we always talk about this very gradual thing, and everybody's sitting around waiting for something to happen. But the people that have had it, they can get you to the minute when it took place, when that realization hit them that they didn't have to drink anymore, when the obsession had been removed.

I hear people in treatment all the time, well, the spiritual experience is not an event. I'm not so sure that I wouldn't argue that on a different day. I think it is. I think from my experience it is, and I think from talking to some of you, the first initial experience is that event. And then on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, we have gradual awarenesses that come to us about other things. Guys, if I live to be 60, and I hope I do, I hope I'm continuing to have these spiritual experiences.

Why did they change the word experience to awakening? Why did they change the word experience? No, it's because our lives weren't having experiences, and so they didn't think it worked for them. So it was more of an awakening over a long time. That's why they said, have you had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps? And that's what we've got. What is it that we've got that we can't go very late to get? Is that a spiritual awakening as a result of the steps?

I see a lot of people who have had a weak awakening to experiences as a result of the steps. So I'm glad they don't think of it as what we've got, because what we've got is as a result of the steps. You think of it as what we've got, because what we've got is as a result of the steps. And some of these awakenings will take some time for some of you. I'm telling you, the experience that you have, regardless, will blow you out of the water. It's ludicrous of us to think that the only way to have an experience is in the fellowship. Our experience shows that the safest and the best and the absolute quickest way for us is in the fellowship.

But whether it's an awakening or an absolutely barn-burning experience, the end result is the same. The desire to drink leaves us. So continued awakenings are going to come from a lifetime. I believe every one of us will have an experience of some type or some quality, some stronger, some less. We will have some experience that will separate us from the people who are recovered and the people that are not.

You commented on the fact that you know my story. I had a spiritual awakening and relapsed almost two years later. And that's not uncommon. I've seen it happen with other people. Bill Wilson talked about the experience he had in Manchester in April and then got drunk.

[01:10:00]

Absolutely. So I think you stated that spiritual experience isn't a free card. No, but understand it. It's the first thing that we've got to have. We've got to get there. We can get spiritually sick again, guys. We all understand that. Spiritual ignorance is no excuse. Once you get here, you understand what we have to do. You stop doing the work. That is your choice. In that regard, you do have a choice.

That's all I've got time for, guys. Y'all go play.